JKR cheat with the prophecy - Point of Destiny

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 124945


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <bob.oliver at c...> wrote:
> 
> bboyminn/steve:
> > 
> > ... Exactly what is the /fixed/ destiny> stated by The Prophecy? 
> > Everything about it is based on assumptions and interpretations 
> > which are all a form of choices. 
> > 
> > So, back to the basic premise, how is the future fixed, and how 
> > are our choices limited beyond the way that they are always 
> > normally limited?
> > 


> Lupinlore:
> 
> Because you simply can't have a prophecy if the future ISN'T fixed
> into a particular pattern (which may include branch points, however
> as the branch points are themselves fixed ....

> ... Prophecies are based (on) ... a future that is fixed and will
> come to be (or more formally a certain pattern of branchpoints which
> is fixed, with certain branches disappearing as further perceptions 
> of the future reveal which branches will become actual) - that is 
> the very definition of a prophecy .... Another way of putting it is 
> that if true prophecies exist the branches that become actual don't 
> depend on free choices made at those branches.  
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Lupinlore


bboyminn:

Before we part ways on this subject, let me take one more stab at it,
but from a slightly different angle. You say the future is fixed, but
I see the future that is Prophesied as being variable and uncertain.

I base my position of the vague, esoteric, highly subject to
interpretation language of the Propehcy. Where is this /fixed point/
in the future that you see, and what do you base it on.

I'm going to try and paraphrase your position, just to make sure I
understand it, and thereby make sure we aren't arguing apples against
oranges.

I say that we can infer no more than that Harry and Voldemort (we
/assume/ Harry and Voldemort) have intertwined destinies. That at some
point their fates will come together, but how, when, were, under what
circumstances, and to what end are all variable and subject to free
choice and freewill. Any choice can be made along that way, and that
choice will alter the nature of the outcome. 

Let me call the uncertain variable point where Harry and Voldemort's
fates come together 'The Point of Intersection'. Fate has decreed that
the 'Intersection' will eventually come, but when, were, how, and to
what outcome is variable.

You on the other hand appear to be saying that there is a fixed
unvariable point at a fixed time, in a fixed place, under fixed
circumstance, and with a fixed outcome existing at some place in the
future. Let me call this fixed point, 'The Point of Destiny'.

Expanding my impression of your statements, you acknowledge the
/appearance/ of Freewill along the way, but seem to imply that destiny
will force a person's choices. 

In any given moment in life we are face with a range of choices. I can
keep typing, or I can get up and go to the store; I have choices. But
you are implying, relative to this specific prophecy, that those
choices, and the apparent freewill associated with them, are an
illusion. That at every critical moment of choice, which you refer to
as 'branches', fate and/or destiny will subconsciously force the
choice that leads to a predetermined outcome. At critical points,
destiny will force Harry to make choices that lead to a predetermined
outcome; to an absolute immutable Point of Destiny.

How am I doing so far? I may not have stated it perfectly, but is that
the gist of what you are trying to say?

But I must ask, what is that 'Point of Destiny', and how and where is
it so rigidly defined in the Prophecy, or more subtly, where and what
is implied in the future?

Yes, I know, JKR already knows what is going to happen, so in that
sense, the future is sealed. What will be will be and nothing can
change it. But from within the story, and from our view as readers,
Harry has many choices that can lead to different outcomes. 

Remember we are arguing how the Propehcy forces the future, not how
the author forces the future.

So, some person somewhere is born in a month that we can reasonably,
but not absolutely, assume is July of some year that we are assuming
is the year the prophecy was made. That person will have a power that
some Dark Lord knows not, and that person will have the power to
vanquish some Dark Lord somewhere at sometime. 

Most critical and defining is '...either must die at the hand of the
other for neither can live while the other survives...". That
certainly thrust their fates together in a big way, but it defines a
fate-forced intersection of destinies. It doesn't seem to force a
specific immutable destiny on either of them. The who, what, when,
where, why, and the outcome are all variable. 

Arguements here in this group and others as to whether Harry will live
or die in the process of defeating Voldemort, seem to solidly point to
a variable outcome. I have even speculated ways in which Harry could
die to fulfill the Prophecy which would leave Voldemort vulnerable to
defeat, but not truly and completely die which would allow Harry to be
revived (happens in real-life all the time). Harry lives, Harry dies,
Harry is resurrected are all very possible outcomes when analyzed from
within the story, or from outside the story as a reader, and none of
which violate the Prophecy. The Prophecy is vague enough to allow for
variable outcomes.

So, I see my fated but variable 'Point of Intersection', but I can't
seem to find your immutable 'Point of Destiny'. 

Can you help me out there? 

If nothing else, did I at least come close to understanding your position?

Steve/bboyminn