Gryffindor's dark side

[charlot7542]

No: HPFGUIDX 125156




 
 
 I wrote: 
> > But the other attitude connected to bravery is arrogance.

Phoenixgod2000 responded:

> No more so than the intelligence of Ravenclaws can lead to 
> arrogance. Or the ambition of Slytherins can lead to arrogance. I 
> would say that Hufflepuff are probably the least prone to 
arrogance 
> because the traits that house admire generally lead to self 
effacing 
> people, although Zackarius Smith seems to be pretty arrogant in 
> OOTP, so I guess even Hufflepuffs can be arrogant. 

Now me:
I agree with this - in fact I was trying to argue that Slytherin 
house doesn't have the monopoly on negative characteristics. If you 
look at the way Draco is portrayed, probably one of the first things 
you would call him is arrogant - I just happen to think that Harry 
and many of the Gryffindors share that quality. It's just that it 
comes accross in a more subversive way because Harry is himself a 
Gryffindor.

 I wrote:
> > I would argue, that although Harry with his "saving people 
thing" 
> > rushes to the aid of others with the best of intentions, often 
> > without reference to those in authority, there is an underlying 
> > arrogance, which accompanies his attitude - the idea that it is 
> not 
> > necessary for him to consult others because he IS the best 
person 
> > for the job.

Phoenixgod2000 responded:
> 
> Actually, in all of the books Harry searches desperately for 
someone 
> else to take the responsibility but in every one of them the 
adults 
> are either not present or they let him down in some way. He never 
> goes looking for trouble.

Now me:

How can you say Harry never goes looking for trouble after the whole 
debacle at the end of OotP? If it weren't for Hermione's cautioning 
he would have headed there straight away without reference to anyone.


I wrote:
>  Of course we saw this attitude coming to the fore in 
> > OotP in his rants to Ron and Hermione about everything he had 
> > accomplished in the past (sorry, don't have the exact quote).

Phoenixgod2000:
> I read that scene totally differently. I thought Harry had quite a 
> low self esteem and needed to say those things out loud to remind 
> *himself* of all the things he had accomplished. The very opposite 
> of arrogance.

Now me:
It's amazing how many different interpretations there can be of a 
particular scene. I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I 
absolutely think Harry said these things to remind Ron and Hermione 
of his accomplishments (in the absence of Dumbledore to rant at) - 
he hardly needed to remind himself as he'd been brewing on it over 
an entire month at the Dursleys.
 

I wrote:
>  But what's more interesting is 
> > Redhen's contention that the driving force behind Gryffindor is 
> not 
> > so much a magnanimous bravery, but rather a desire to 
be "admired".
 
Phoenixgod2000 responded:
> Except for bravery isn't about being admired. Being brave is about 
> making sacrifices.  Bravery is the reason why Harry stands up to 
> Umbridge, why Hermione struggles to free the house elves in the 
face 
> of predjuce, and why Ron walks in a spider filled woods.  Its also 
> why James walks to his death at Voldemorts wand and Sirius Black 
> struggles to maintain his sanity in the prison of the dammned. 
None 
> of those actions are because the people doing them want to be 
> admired.  They are either done despite other people saying they 
> could not or should not be done, or they are done in the dark 
where 
> no one would see. 

Me again:
Sorry I wasn't clear - I shouldn't have linked bravery with 
admiration in such a way. Of course, there are are a number of fine 
attributes associated with Gryffindor and genuine bravery is one of 
them. I just think that often an admirable quality can be perverted 
and that possibly Gryffindors, being used to praise and admiration 
for their bold actions might begin to crave the admiration for its 
own sake. And that sometimes if this happens, the desire for 
admiration might become an addictive and the driving force. I guess 
the motivation for any action would be different depending on the 
circumstances. Brave deeds at their best are motivated by love and a 
belief in the rightness of one's cause. At their worst, they are 
motivated by a desire for praise. I guess your average Gryffindor 
has at some point been motivated by both ends of the scale.  

Having said that and for the record, I think that Harry standing up 
to Umbridge probably is more recklessness and adolescent pique than 
bravery. I also think that the way Hermione sticks up for House 
Elves with little regard for their feelings is entirely based upon a 
recognisible system of morals which are deemed admirable in the 
muggle world. 

 
> I wrote:
> > Then there's Percy Weasley, who has never seemed to fit the 
> > Gryffindor mould particularly well, but with this criteria is 
> > perfectly understandable - the continued reference to his 
prefect 
> > status and indeed the rift with his family because his 
perception 
> of 
> > what is admirable within the wizarding world diverges with that 
of 
> > Arthur and Molly.

Phoenixgod2000 responded:
> Wouldn't Percy be more admired by people for sticking by his 
family. 
> Isn't by taking the less popular choice of going with someone he 
> believes is right, brave?  Percy is a true believer in Fudge and 
> defying his parents takes a lot of courage. 

Me again:
No, the way Percy perceives things is that Arthur in particular is 
regarded as an embarrassment at the ministry - there's no way he 
wants to associate himself with someone who is thought to be a joke 
to his colleagues. Percy thinks he IS making the popular choice.



I wrote:  
> > Think Hermione with her constant need to be academically 
brilliant 
> > and praised by students and teachers alike.
 
Phoenixgod2000:
> Except for her beliefs are unpopular and she doesn't seem to care 
> about being admired by students. She is a teacher pleaser but that 
> is countered by her strong social stances, which most teachers and 
> indeed most people believe are wrong. 

Me again:
You're right that Hermione certainly is a teacher pleaser - she 
loves the admiration she gains from being a top student. It is 
through her academic talents that she differentiates herself from 
the mass. I agree that she has a strong social conscience, even if 
it is somewhat misdirected (and to some extent based upon admirable 
muggle models of liberal thinking) Again, I don't think that 
Gryffindors have no admirable traits. Moreover, not every aspect of 
their character can be determined by the dictates of the house. It 
simply accounts for some common characteristics. And Hermione does 
like to be admired and praised.  
 

I wrote:
> > And of course there's Ron, who desires above all (at least in 
his 
> > first year) to be head boy and quidditch captain - these things 
> are 
> > widely perceived and easily recognisable labels of success.
> 
Phoenixgod2000:
> Ron's greatest triumpts and most Gryffindorish actions were the 
ones 
> done when no one was watching. Ron doesn't brag about his Chess 
Game 
> in PS and he doesn't brag about going into the chamber of secrets 
in 
> CoS. Both would garner him far more attention than being headboy, 
> but he still keeps his mouth shut. 

Me again:
What about the way he behaves in PoA after his encounter with Sirius 
Black? (when Sirius breaks into Gryffindor common room and stands 
above Ron's bed in the middle of the night searching for Peter the 
rat) Ron loves the attention and embellishes the story every time he 
tells it. What about his reaction to winning the Quidditch cup in 
OotP? Once again loving the attention gained from his admirable 
victory. Like Hermione, Ron of course possesses a genuine bravery, 
but that doesn't mean that he doesn't like being admired.


I wrote:  
> > Harry himself could be said to be put in Gryffindor because he 
> > wished to live up to that admirable memory of his parents as 
> painted by Hagrid.
> 
Phoenixgod2000:
> Partly, but living up to someone elses image of admiration and 
doing 
> something *for* admiration are very different. Harry goes out of 
his 
> way to avoid attention in almost all cases. 

Me again:
Harry doesn't like the attention he receives for simply being Harry 
Potter, for simply having the scar on his forehead, essentially 
something he himself didn't do anything to achieve. I would argue 
that considering the sorting hat's comment that Harry has a strong 
desire to prove himself, that he would like the opportunity to live 
up to his reputation. He wants to earn an admirable reputation of 
his own.
  

I wrote:
 > The darker aspect of the Gryff's wish for respect and esteem can 
> be 
> > seen in figures like Ludo Bagman, Gilderoy Lockhart, even 
> Cornelius 
> > Fudge - in such cases the need for praise and to be thought well 
> of 
> > overrides the original wish to perform fully admirable deeds in 
> > order to achieve admiration.
> 
Phoenixgod2000:
> No evidence that any of them were Gryffindors.

Me again:
I have a strong feeling that Ludo Bagman and Gilderoy Lockhart do 
say at some point that they were Gryffindors, but I may be wrong. In 
any case I was using them as examples of what can happen if a desire 
to be admired becomes addictive. Same goes for Fudge - you're right 
I have no evidence of his house, but I can conceive of him being in 
Gryffindor for the reasons stated. 


 
I wrote:
> > Probably the major difference between Gryffindor and Slytherin 
> then 
> > is that Slytherins don't care so much about what others think as 
> > long as they achieve their ends. Others are beneath them anyway. 
> 
Phoenixgod2000:
> The exact opposite is true. Ambition requires the approval of 
others 
> because you cannot gain social power without other people giving 
it 
> up. Just because so one is beneath you doesn't mean you don't need 
> them.

Me again:
Actually I think not - ambition doesn't require that people like 
you. You merely need them to either respect you or to give them 
something they want in return for their support - I think that the 
stereotypical Slytherin way would use the latter method. Gryffs on 
the other hand, truly want to be loved and looked up too simply for 
being themselves. Not because they bribed others for it. 

Charlotte.