Harsh Morality (was Re: Double standards and believing)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 121011


Lupinlore:

As this discussion continues, I am growing more and more convinced 
that JKR is, at heart, espousing a rather old-fashioned form of 
Christian moralism in the Potter Saga.  That is, I truly think at 
heart she is a Christian Platonist, someone who believes that Good 
and Evil are very real metaphysical principals, and that the 
goodness or evil of actions, beliefs, and even human beings is not 
determined by their intentions or reasoning, but by the extent to 
which they obey the harsh demands of one principle or the other.  
Note in Dumbledore's speech about choosing between "What is right 
and what is easy," he leaves absolutely no room for middle ground.  
You either choose what is right or you don't, PERIOD.  It is also 
instructive that Sirius says "The world isn't divided into good 
people and Death Eaters," but he DOES NOT say "The world isn't 
divided into good people and evil people."  I think all our recent 
conversations about grey areas are, in a way, missing the heart of 
JKR's morality, because I'm just not very sure she really believes 
in grey areas as such.  It is a very harsh morality, but let me give 
some examples.


Alla:

As I said yesterday, I do agree with you that Good and Evil seem to 
be very real principles in Potterverse with Dumbledore and Voldemort 
being their personifications.

I have this very uncomfortable feeling that you will turn out to be 
100% correct (and I would welcome someone  to convince me in the 
opposite very much), but I still WANT to think that JKR believes in 
grey areas, otherwise it is very harsh morality as you said it 
yourself.

I do think right now that my hope will turn out to be false.

Nevertheless, does it really MATTER if she believes in grey areas or 
not? IMHO, she surely shows those grey areas in the books. 
Therefore  I am not sure that we are missing  the heart of her 
morality, when we discuss grey areas of characters' behaviour.

Regardless of author's intention they are were, IMO.

Now, you are absolutely correct that ending may put an end to those 
unintentional "grey areas" because I also have a feeling that it 
will be very "black and white".

I never thought I will say it, but I would like you to be proven 
wrong on this one. :o)

Lupinlore:
Dumbledore's decision to leave Harry with the Dursleys.  I have been 
extremely critical of this decision, and I have been hoping we would 
see some exploration of its consequences.  I have been hoping that 
eventually we would see a greater confession on Dumbledore's part 
that this was an extremely grey area and that he proceeded with 
great misgivings and heartache, as well as a greater acknowledgement 
of pain Harry has suffered due to Dumbledore's decision.  But I 
regret to say I am becoming convinced we will see no such.  In the 
harsh morality of the Potterverse I don't think there is room for 
such heartache and acknowledgement of Harry's pain and the injustice 
of DD's decision on any plane.  DD did what was necessary to uphold 
THE GOOD in a Platonic sense.  His action was RIGHT, full stop, no 
apology or sense that perhaps the morals and priorities weren't 
clear or that Harry deserves a chance to challenge the assumptions 
that have caused him so much pain.  That is extremely distasteful to 
me to admit, but I am becoming convinced that such is JKR's stand.
 
In the case of Percy and Draco once again I don't think JKR sees a 
true grey area.  Percy and Draco have chosen to uphold the Evil 
principle.  Percy's reasoning in breaking with his family, his 
sincerity or lack of it, is entirely irrelevant.  He has not done 
what was RIGHT.  The fact that Draco has not ever had a 
counterexample in his family once again I don't think cuts any ice 
with JKR.  There is good and there is evil and Draco has chosen the 
wrong side, full stop.
 
The question of Snape is one of the opposite case.  Snape supports 
the side of THE GOOD.  His reasons for doing so, I think in JKR's 
eyes, are ultimately irrelevant.  The fact that he causes pain and 
heartache wherever he appears also seems to be irrelevant to JKR.  
There is good and there is evil and Snape has chosen THE GOOD, full 
stop.



Alla:

Call me "hopeless cause", but I am still keeping hope that 
Dumbledore was sorry for leaving Harry with Dursleys. When I read 
his OOP speech, I at least see some small hints to it, but again if 
I am honest with myself, I have to say that I agree  with you.

Snape - well, I am not sure. She promised more information about 
him, so maybe his reasons WILL be important after all and she did 
call him "sadistic teacher", so maybe she will write something along 
the lines that the fact that Snape IS on Dumbledore's side does NOT 
automatically make him a good person.

Speaking about Snape, actually. He himself IS a grey character, 
don't you agree?



Lupinlore:
 
Is JKR trying to say something about complex morality in the HP 
saga?  The more I think of it the more I think she is saying 
something in exactly the opposite direction.  She seems to be 
implying that morality is harsh, Good and Evil are real, and human 
ideas about justice or reason or individual worth or even the right 
to be loved and comforted are not very important in the great scheme 
of things.  You either support the good principle or the evil 
principle, there is no middle ground and there is no quibbling.  JKR 
has said she doesn't care if she has only six fans when she is 
finished.  I think a lot of people (including me) have assumed that  
means things will come to a very confused, complex, and possibly 
grey conclusion.  I am starting to believe that, on the contrary, we 
will see an end that is shocking in its harshness and clarity.


Alla:

What do you make of her statement then that "Nobody is born evil"? I 
don't know, I am confused to tell you the truth.



Alla