Yet another DD Dursley thread (was Harsh Morality )

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 121038


> Snow previously:
>
> What a beautiful statement, Jen! I would like to add to that: that
> this was Dumbledore's only choice
 given the sacrifice that Lily
> made; he could only expand on Lily's sacrifice and give even more
> protection to it. Was that a sacrifice in itself, yes! But it was a-
> worse-than-all-evils-choice. Dumbledore had less than 24 hours to
> combat what he thought had happened with what could eventually
> happen. Given the `gray' or unknown area Dumbledore had to face
(the
> plan), of not knowing absolutely who was trustworthy, whom better
> than a muggle (and a giant)? And Dumbledore used them both
wisely.
It
> worked so far because Harry isn't dead from abuse or any other
reason
> that could stem from abuse but overcame his upbringing and has
defied
> Voldemort four times.

Lupinlore:

I said I wasn't going to get into this, but I'm afraid I can't let it
go. Could you elaborate, Snow, on what you mean by this? I don't
think you are saying that it's good that Harry was abused. In what
way was Dumbledore's decision correct? Surely he could have forced
the Dursleys to act more appropriately. And surely you don't mean to
imply that child abuse can EVER be a good thing, or it is ever
appropriate to put someone in an abusive household to "strengthen"
or "toughen" them.

I think I should elaborate a little bit on my own problems here. I
have no trouble in agreeing to DD's decision to place Harry with the
Dursleys initially. He had little time and did not know whom to
trust, as you point out. Indeed, safety was a huge issue. The
Longbottoms, after all, were presumably hidden and protected in every
way available to the Order yet they were tortured into insanity AFTER
Voldemort fell. My problem is his inaction for ten years
thereafter. Surely once it became apparent that the DE threat was at
least momentarily at bay there were more appropriate arrangements
that could have been made. Or given that he feared Voldemort's
return (and I readily grant he had no way, as far as we know, of
predicting when that might be) surely he had it within his power to
force the Dursleys to behave more appropriately, not to mention he
had it within his ability to provide more support for Harry from the
Wizarding World. Sirius was in prison, but why would periodic
visits/checkups from Remus or even McGonagall have been out of the
question, not to mention visits on his own initiative? I fail to see
how the safety of the entire Wizarding World could possibly have been
jeapordized to any great extent if proper safeguards were taken. (And
if we refuse to take any risks at all with the safety of the
Wizarding World, if the few are really to be sacrificed to the many,
there is a ready answer -- just have a headsman standing by for every
time the Sorting Hat calls out "Slytherin!").

>Snip<

Remember, I am not talking about Dumbledore's INITIAL decision, but
about his failure to intervene in all the succeeding years of Harry's
suffering. His initial decision was clearly necessary to preserve
Harry's life, but any decision not to intervene thereafter runs into
much murkier waters. Surely giving the boy a little support from the
WW and acting to restrain the Dursleys would not have turned him into
a raving maniac, nor would it have significantly imperilled the
Wizarding World. As I said above, that line of reasoning leads to
killing everyone sorted into Slytherin on the philosophy that its
better to strangle the serpents before they can develop poison glands.


Snow:

Dumbledore didn't place Harry with the Dursley's to be abused or to 
toughen him up but both were a product of his decision. Dumbledore 
also placed several protections with Harry when he left him other 
than the blood protection: Mrs. Fig, and her many spying cats that 
inform her, who was an Order member, was placed as an informant close 
by and I believe Mundungus looked out for Harry when he was not 
inside the Dursley's house. In fact, Dung may have had a hand in 
Harry managing to escape Dudley and his gang by ending up on the roof 
of the school kitchens. (Harry describes this scene as possibly being 
picked up by the wind) Harry has protection from physical abuse by 
Vernon whether Dumbledore placed that protection with Harry or not is 
uncertain but a real safeguard against physical abuse nonetheless. 
Petunia herself, to some degree, protects Harry when Vernon suggests 
calling Aunt Marge to watch Harry while they take Dudley to the zoo 
and Petunia's reply to this was "Don't be silly, Vernon, she hates 
the boy." If Petunia were ruthlessly abusive she wouldn't have given 
a second thought to handing Harry over to Aunt Marge. 

Could Dumbledore have removed Harry from the Dursley's after the 
major threat was over, yes! But that would have jeopardized the 
reasons Dumbledore had to place him with the Dursley's in the first 
place. Dumbledore himself could have looked after Harry except that 
he didn't want Voldemort to know that he and Harry had a relationship 
that was closer than Headmaster and pupil. We could also wonder why 
not place Harry with the Weasleys but then again look what happened 
to the Longbottoms after Voldemort himself was no longer a threat. 

Could Dumbledore have encouraged the Dursley's to treat Harry in any 
specific manner, I don't think so, considering that Dumbledore had to 
convince Petunia to accept Harry grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly 
and bitterly involving some unknown pact as part of the deal. If 
Dumbledore had attempted to impose restrictions on the Dursley's 
lifestyle Petunia may not have accepted Harry. 

As I had said before, I think Dumbledore chose the lesser of the two 
evils, so to speak, when considering the entire scope of Harry's 
protection. The Dursley's weren't the ideal place for Harry's 
childhood but that is where Lily's protection could be invoked which 
according to Dumbledore was the strongest shield he could give Harry. 
Voldemort himself realizes that when Harry is with the Dursley's not 
even he can touch him
nor anyone else who wanted to cause him harm or 
they certainly would have done so. 

There may be more to Dumbledore's protection with the Dursley's other 
than the blood factor. Harry is still required to return to the 
Dursley's even after the blood protection factor had been penetrated 
by the use of Harry's blood so I would surmise that at least one 
other protection had been placed with Harry at the Dursley's. The 
Dursley's are like a catalyst to the original protections Dumbledore 
placed with Harry. To remove Harry at anytime after these protections 
were administered would be to endanger Harry. Dumbledore sent a 
howler to Petunia to remind her just how important it is that Harry 
remain with her and Harry has been reminded also, at the end of OOP, 
that he needs only return to the Dursley's, and yes there 
mistreatment, to engage these protections. 

In the end it was really Lily's sacrifice that determined Harry's 
fate in more than one way. 

Snow