CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 35, Beyond the Veil

[severelysigune]

No: HPFGUIDX 121098


Meri proposed:

> Discussion Questions: 
> 
> 1) Before the release of the book, JKR told us that someone close  
> toHarry would die, and in this chapter we are presented with  
> several red herrings about who it might be (Ron, Hermione, Ginny, 
> Neville). Might the injuries they sustained during this battle  
> foreshadow later events? Did you think, before reading the book, 
> that is, that Sirius would be the one to die? What kind of 
> repercussions do you think his death will have on future plot 
> lines? Christian allegories aside, what exactly is behind the veil? 

Sigune:
Oh dear no, I never for a moment suspected it might be Sirius, and I 
was pretty shocked. I thought it might be Arthur Weasley, then 
Hagrid, then Hermione (which I would have found quite unforgivable).
As to the injuries, I don't believe they particularly foreshadow 
anything, apart from, perhaps, Ron and the brain tentacles. If that 
injury doesn't resurface, I don't really see what the point of 
mentioning it was.
I'm not really sure about the repercussions of Sirius's death. The 
part he had to play in Harry's life was never that extensive, was it -
 he mainly served as a sort of living link to James, and somehow 
fulfilled that function better than Lupin. I don't see any easy 
replacement for Sirius in Harry's life; I don't believe Lupin can act 
as a surrogate to the surrogate father. The pattern seems to be that 
Harry will be more and more thrown back to himself.
The veil I have a bit of a problem with - that is to say, it appears 
to me to be a sort of limbo rather than death, but that probably has 
something to do with the fact that we most often get to picture 
something like an afterlife, which contrasts (to me) rather starkly 
with the emptiness behind the veil (or is that just me again?).

 
> 2) Where was Mr. Goyle? Almost every other Death Eater from the 
> resurrection scene from GOF was present during the battle, so where 
> was he? Was he simply too incompetent to take on a mission of this 
> importance? Or did Mr. Goyle displease Voldemort in some way? 
<snip>

Sigune:
Heh heh. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Mr Goyle has defected from both 
Lucius Malfoy and dear Voldie? That's what I would make of it, and it 
would be a nice twist, but I'm not sure JKR will take her 
(occasional) subversions of black/white that far - she certainly does 
a bad job on Draco Malfoy in that department, so why Goyle, of all 
people? :).


> 3) For that matter, where the heck was Peter Pettigrew? Did 
> Voldemort worry that Peter's life-debt to Harry would be a 
> hindrance to him on this mission? 

Sigune:
Please *do* correct me if I missed something, but does Voldie KNOW 
about the life-debt? It seems imprudent on Peter's part to mention 
it, at least in my humble opinion; and Pettigrew's keen instinct of 
survival would reasonably have kept him from informing his master 
that he has such a powerful bond with said master's enemy.
As to Voldie not sending him in, then, I suspect he had another task 
in mind for Peter, about which we will hopefully find out in book 
six. Pettigrew is useful in several ways; we've had this kind of 
discussion before about Snape; I should hope that Voldie has the 
brains to set particular servants to tasks they are good at, so Peter 
might have had something better to do than chase a few kids around 
the MoM.


> 4) What was Bellatrix so mad about? Was it because Harry said the 
> name? Or because she didn't know about LV's real parantage? Do the 
> Death Eaters really not know that Voldemort is a half-blood? How  
> can he keep that concealed from them if Malfoy at least knows his 
> true identity, Tom Riddle? How will this revelation affect the  
> Death Eaters and their reverence and fear for Voldemort? 

Sigune:
Yes, that one has me a bit puzzled. I distinctly remember Voldie 
saying (I think it was Diary!Tom in CoS) that his obsession with pure 
blood was a thing of the past - whereas we have been lead to believe 
that the blood issue was the one that gathered the DE's around him - 
it's the Salazar Slytherin thingy. So now that blood is no longer the 
main focus, what keeps all these purebloods slaving away for him? 
Well, Mr Goyle seems to have decided Voldie's no longer worthwhile; 
who will be next? ;)...
Bellatrix is a real 'Toujours Pur' type; I think that, yes, she's 
mighty upset at what she considers a terrible insult to her venerated 
master. But I think that she, for one, never can believe Harry's 
right about Riddle. The other, somewhat saner DEs, might, however. 
Interesting.
BTW, I've never quite understood how Voldie's parentage isn't more 
widely known. You'd think that a bunch of people who obsess over pure 
blood would have some genealogical background or had done some 
research on their Great Leader. (But then again, did anyone ever do 
that for Hitler and walk up to him saying he wasn't being very 
consistent?)
Hm. I suppose that people like Macnair, for example, will just use 
*any* excuse to use violence against others, and there might be more 
DEs of his kind why couldn't care less about the label or ideology 
under which they fight. And Malfoy seems to have decided to keep 
Voldie's origins to himself, which opens perspectives in terms of 
speculation about his motives.

<snips question 5>

> 6) This has been discussed before, but what significance, if any,  
> do those other prophecies have? What kind of valuable information 
> was lost when the kids broke the shelves? How foolproof are the 
> recording procedures at the Department of Mysteries? Malfoy very 
> specifically says that only the people to whom the prophecies 
> pertain can remove them from the Department, not the shelves. Is 
> this why Neville could handle the prophecy? Does he still have a 
> part to play in this? 

Sigune:
This is totally irrelevant, of course, but I privately enjoyed the 
smashing of the prophecies. These things are *so* infuriating. I have 
already expressed my aversion to prophecies in earlier threads: 
they're useless, you can't understand them until they've been 
fulfilled, they're always being misinterpreted, and no matter how 
much I like the character of Dumbledore, I lost some of my esteem for 
him when he started rambling about one. Duh. He should know better. 
It's not because Voldy's obsessed with them that it's a good idea to 
act according to prophecies which may or may not be about the thing 
you think they are about. They're not valuable information; they only 
lead people astray and depress them by suggesting their fate is 
pinned. So good riddance. <veg>
Neville - well, I don't have any definite theories, but I *do* 
suspect there is a nice, important role for him somewhere.
Now that you mention it: how was Malfoy going to remove the prophecy 
from the Department? Would Voldie come anyway, as it was about him 
and he could thus handle it?


> 7) Neville showed some impressive skills and more bravery in this 
> scene than in anything else he has done before. Is Timid!Neville 
> gone for good? How do you think his experience of the Cruciatus 
> Curse will affect him? If he gets a new wand what will it be made 
> of? What part will he play in future events? If Harry is the heir, 
> is Neville the spare?

Sigune:
If JKR sticks to the system of Celtic trees she explained on her 
website, Neville's wand should be fashioned out of the same wood as 
Harry's, holly.
I do hope Timid!Neville isn't gone for good - I would find that 
psychologically unrealistic, even though I think the battle at the 
DoM and his confrontation with Bellatrix has made him stronger.

<snips question 8>
 
> 9) When Ron got attacked by the brains I thought his number was up. 
> Whose brain was it that tried to strangle him? What is the 
> Department of Mysteries doing with the brains? 
<snip>

Sigune:
Personally I don't think it's specifically important whose brain it 
was - although, if the attack *does* leave traces, it might actually 
prove interesting (sorry - I can't help thinking about a fic where a 
Memory Charm backfired and Kreacher and Gilderoy Lockhart ended up 
which each other's memories...:-)
I suppose what they study in the Brain Room is Thought - one other 
elusive thing, next to Death and Time and (possibly, presumably) 
Love - stuff you cannot grasp. Hm. It does make me wonder about the 
planets - the origin and movements of the Universe?

> 10) Many people have used Harry's protectiveness to Hermione in 
> this chapter as an indication that he likes her as more than a  
> friend. How do you think this chapter presents the various SHIPS? 
> Harry also stands in front of Ginny when she is threatened. Does 
> this indicate that he has feelings for her? Or is there simply too 
> much vague evidence? (I have no agenda with this one, just curious!)

Sigune:
Nah, nah. It's his 'saving-people-thing' - he's protective of all his 
friends; they are the only 'family' he has, besides the Dreadful 
Dursleys - and he protected even Dudley, didn't he?

Yours severely,

Sigune