Salazar & Slytherine(was Re: Draco and Slytherin House (was: Harsh Morality)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 121426


>>Nora:
>Opening salvo: Salazar is something of a wild-card.  One-time best 
friends to Godric, leaving the school over the blood issue, leaving a 
giant homicidal snake in a seekrit room in the basement.  It doesn't 
look that good, really.<

<Snip of me (Betsy) on why Salazar might distrust outsiders>

>>Nora: 
>It raises the question of why he is the isolate of the three, 
though; the others apparently had no problem, and per the Sorting 
Hat, Hufflepuff was actively opposed to his policy.<

Betsy:
I see your point, but first of all did Salazar leave over the blood 
issue?  According to Prof. Binns, yes.  But he also says that there 
was a split between Salazar and Godric; he doesn't mention Helga and 
Rowena.  However, the Sorting Hat (who has intimate knowledge of all 
four founders and was a sort of eye witness to history) claims that 
there was fighting between all four founders; "The Houses that, like 
pillars four,/Had once held up our school,/Now turned upon each other 
and,/ Divided sought to rule." (OotP, Scholastic, pg. 206)  The Hat 
also claims that the fighting occured after "Hogwarts worked in 
harmony / for several happy years," (ibid, pg. 205)  Which makes me 
wonder what the cause of the break was.  Why would it have been only 
the pureblood issue when Salazar set it up as one of his requirements 
from the beginning?  And if it was between the four, did another 
founder agree with Salazar's caution?

I can see that the issue of blood being one of the reasons for 
fighting, but the Hat seems to imply that the founders were fighting 
amongst each other, not all piling on Salazar.  In fact, when Salazar 
leaves the others are left, "quite downhearted," (ibid 206).  Which 
seems to imply that it wasn't a case of, 'don't let the door hit you 
on the way out.' At least, not after he leaves.

As to the snake in the super-seekrit room (hee!), perhaps that was a 
sort of nuclear option.  A kind of, "the fools don't realize what 
kind of danger they're putting themselves in.  I'll just leave ol' 
Bad Billy the Basilisk here to pull their fat out of the fire when 
the witch hunters come to call."  

>>Nora:  
>Contra this, it then becomes interesting as to where Tom Riddle 
picked up the "Slytherin's noble work" idea.  Given that we're 
talking to Young!Tom, it seems probable that he got it from 
SOMEWHERE.  What is unclear is whether it is more solidly 
historically founded or a projection.  Again, given the SH's 
statement, I now lean more towards the former.<

Betsy:
And then along comes Crazy Tom and his power hungry ways, and he 
twists poor Bad Billy into a weapon used against the very school 
Salazar was trying to protect.  Or, um... something like that.  
Seriously though, I've come to believe that Voldemort's pureblood 
schtick is just that, schtick.  He hates and despises Muggles, so 
those wizards big on Muggle-baiting would have attracted him.  But I 
can't see him caring about purebloodedness, not being one himself.  
And his casual disposal of Regulus Black, (and his choosing Harry) 
suggests the same thing.  I think he took what he wanted from 
Salazar's tenets and twisted it to what suited him.  Each time he 
opened the Chamber he nearly destroyed the school, something I doubt 
Salazar was for. 
[This is an aside, but I sometimes wonder if Voldemort isn't after 
the destruction of the WW too.  Exposure is the WW's biggest fear, 
and exposure is what Voldemort's after.  After all, his mother 
abandoned him too.]

<snip>

>>Nora:
> [BTW, Tom Riddle is a very unclear case.  Halfbloods 
(wizard/muggle, not 'halfbloods' like Harry) generally admitted, or 
exceptions made because of the lineage?  Also unclear.]<

Betsy:
And here I will prove my hypocrisy by going to the interviews <eg>:  
I believe there is a sheet of paper done up by JKR with Hogwart 
students listed with their blood status.  And I believe that paper 
shows that Millicent Bulstrode (Slytherin) has one Muggle parent.

>>Nora:
>Funny, I didn't see Gryffindor House leading the Inquisitorial 
Squad, which is what I was primarily thinking of.  Even though it was 
Draco's claque, and other Slytherins were not necessarily involved, 
they were still the beneficiaries of the IS, per the gems in the 
hourglass at the end.  Like it or not, as they took the free ride, so 
they have some obligation to disavow the results--if they don't feel 
like accepting some of the blame for helping perpetuate the 
conditions.  Sitting back and benefiting while keeping your head down 
is a very Slytherin way to behave.  In JKR's world, it doesn't seem 
to be a very ethical way to behave--hence the possible need for 
public airings of grievances.  I could be wrong, of course. :)<

Betsy:
Of course, the IS was being perfectly Slytherin.  I think they would 
have seen the gems in the hourglass as their due for handling things 
the right way.  To channel my inner Slytherin I think they would 
say, "Listen, you all (Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff) were 
foolish enough to challenge the powers that be in a head to head 
fight you couldn't win.  You mess with the bull, you get the horns.  
However, if any of you had thought to include a Slytherin in the DA, 
none of you would have been caught.  So who is owed an apology 
again?"  (Only, you know, more British like. <g>)  I can't see 
Slytherin House actually liking Umbridge after she cuts down their 
head in his own classroom.  They'll suck up to her to get what they 
want, but I don't think she had their loyalty.

>>Nora: 
>Not to mention that we don't have canon for all of them, but a good 
number of DEs are Slytherin alumni.  There's a complex of linkages 
between interest/use of the Dark Arts, belief in the pureblood 
ideology, and following Voldemort.  In Slytherin, where that ideology 
is encouraged, it's no shock that DEs come out of there.  It's not 
unique to Slytherin House and it's not a complete profile of the 
House, but it seems substantial.<

Betsy:
It does follow that Tom Riddle would do his recruiting in his house.  
And who knows how many folks Lucius Malfoy brought with him.  Maybe 
you could say that Voldemort is all that's twisted and wrong about 
Slytherin and there needs to be someone to stand up and be the 
correct Slytherin. Draco?  Please?

>>Nora:
>Maybe the House system itself is doomed.<
  
Betsy:
Ooh, I'd hate the House system to go.  I think there's a lot of good 
to the House system and I hate to see the baby thrown out with 
bathwater.  Though the Sorting Hat does say, "And never since the 
founders four / Were whittled down to three / have the Houses been 
united / As they once were meant to be," (ibid pg. 206).  Which makes 
me think that there must be a way for the Houses to be united without 
completely getting rid of the Houses.

>>Nora:
>But per the Sorting Hat in OotP, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor chose 
their students on characteristics.  Helga took everyone, giving her 
the high moral ground.  But Slytherin's sine qua non was an 
assignation of quality based on the purity of blood.  Ambitious and 
talented Muggleborns are and were right out, so far as we know--with 
evidence that that is the case, and none that it isn't.<

Betsy:
I go back to the more positive traits Dumbledore brought up to Harry 
back in CoS.  It wasn't just blood, and I really think for Salazar it 
was more a worry about outsiders.  If it was just blood, why was the 
Hat so keen on Harry being in Slytherin?  Harry is not pure.  And as 
you pointed out, neither was Tom, and according to JKR, neither is 
Bulstrode.

<snip>
 
>>Nora:
>You should go and join Pippin in the "JKR is lying to us!" corner, 
though.  I think she's very shifty when people are on to something, 
but I don't feel that in her Draco responses.  She's more "huh?" 
about people liking him than anything.<

Betsy:
I don't know about lying to us, more a misdirection in my mind.  If I 
remember correctly the questions are usually along the lines 
of, "Will Draco / Snape be a good guy in the end?"  And instead of 
answering JKR goes into a song and dance about how they're such bad 
boys and don't date bad boys and it's all the actors' charisma and 
manages to completely avoid the question.  Thereby helping folks like 
me remain hopeful. ;D

Betsy