Snape key (getting longish)

[Debbie]

No: HPFGUIDX 121444


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:

> Thus, I humbly offer a key to Snape theories, (which 
> I hope works) with some discussion at the end.  I've 
> left out those theories that don't appear to concern 
> themselves with why Snape turned spy in VWI, though 
> between Hypothetic Alley, Yahoo!Mort and some random 
> wandering along interesting looking threads, I think 
> I've covered most of them. *Please* feel free to edit 
> and improve it.
 
Oooh!  A Snapetheory quiz!  And a very good one, too.  Alas, I'm far 
enough outside the mainstream theories that I had trouble with the 
key in spots, but let's see how well I can fit within the existing 
theories.  
   
> 1.
> - Snape was a fully-committed DE from the start, he believed in 
the 
> idea of pure-blood supremacy, and had no ethical problem with 
using 
> the dark arts      2
> - Snape was never a fully committed DE, he originally joined them 
as 
> a spy for DD    OSCAR-WINNER!SNAPE

Alas, Snape's pensieve memories ("I don't need help from filthy 
little Mudbloods like her!") have all but forced me to cast aside my 
original notion that Snape didn't give a fig about anyone's ancestry 
but that instead, Snape willingly joined the DEs primarily because 
he rejected Dumbledore for *failing* him as mentor and sought a 
substitute in Voldemort, who was much more aligned with his love of 
the Dark Arts, anyway.  

Yet I continue to doubt that Snape joined the DEs for ideological 
reasons.  

Surely someone who arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses than most 
seventh-years would likely have received plenty of overtures from 
the older DEs-in-waiting.    And wouldn't someone so jealous of 
James' popularity take his friends and mentors where he could find 
them, pureblood fanatics or not?  (How else would he become Lucius 
Malfoy's lapdog?)  Yeah, I'm not convinced that Snape didn't borrow 
those *mudblood* epithets just because his friends used them.  But 
I'll go with the first answer anyway.

> 2.
> - Snape left the DEs because he changed his mind about what they 
> stood for, for moral reasons, and went searching for redemption.
>         3
> - He did not consider morality in his decision to turn spy and 
> leave, and he still believes in the DE ideals   8

I don't think that Snape ever cared what Voldemort stood *for*; 
rather, he joined because of who he was fighting *against*.  He does 
not, however, believe in sycophancy (too much of a control freak for 
that!), which is what Voldemort expects of his followers.  He needs 
respect which Voldemort cannot give.  Thus, he no longer believed 
that Voldemort had anything to offer him, nor did he retain any 
respect for his fellow DEs and sycophants.  

> 3.
> - His leaving was caused by an epiphany (big bang)  4
> - His leaving was a gradual realisation (steady state)  7

Steady state, definitely.
 
> 5.
> - Snape was/is in love with Lily, and once he realised Lily was a 
> Voldy target, he cursed the day he'd ever joined up  
>                                        LOLLIPOPS/EWWW and vars.
> - Snape had a wife (Florence?) and son who were killed by Voldy 
> and/or the DEs     SWINDLED

Admitting to much LOLLIPOPS ambivalence, I must also acknowledge 
that the Pensieve scene carries with it such strong overtones that 
it must be taken into account, even under "Snape left the DEs for 
moral reasons" theories.  But the two are completely compatible:  
Snape had long since become disgusted with the DEs and had been 
looking for an opportunity to leave.  Learning that Lily -- who had 
always treated him with kindness -- had been targeted by Voldemort 
provided him both with the final impetus to get out *and* a useful 
bit of information he could offer to Dumbledore to convince him of 
his sincerity.

So, I want to answer this question even though I'm a steady-state 
believer.  Perhaps the key should be changed so steady-state 
responders don't jump over this question?  As I believe you state at 
the end of your post, LOLLIPOPS can be made to fit many theories.

> 7.
> - He was always aware of morality, but begins to apply it to 
himself 
> and those around him      GEORGE 
> - His leaving the DEs was the first time he has understood that 
> there is *not* just `power and those too weak to take it',
> and that he can actually conceive a morality        DIANA

Unquestionably, GEORGE.  My theory is fundamentally Georgian in that 
it assumes that he rejected the moral vision offered by Dumbledore.  
>From Snape's (presumed) POV, Dumbledore may have talked the good 
talk about making hard choices, but Dumbledore himself didn't abide 
by them when dealing with James and Sirius, the charismatic and 
popular Gryffindors who also happened to be incorrigible 
rulebreakers.  For them to have received the laurels (culminating in 
James' selection as Head Boy in spite of his rulebreaking) and 
avoided the punishments (especially Sirius for the Prank) must have 
been like rubbing salt on an open wound.   To digress, I believe 
that the Pensieve showed Snape's abusive father and that while at 
Hogwarts he was looking to Dumbledore to serve as a mentor, if not a 
surrogate father, so that joining the DEs was a rejection of 
Dumbledore and what he stood for.

> 8. 
> - He realises that Voldy is only out for power for himself, and 
that 
> pureblooded ideals are not the priority  PRINCE GEORGE
> - Not as above     9

Hmm.  I think Snape always had some awareness that Voldemort was out 
for absolute power, but believed he was joining up to fight the 
enemy, and that there would be opportunities for him there.

> 9.
> - He was forced to leave the DEs by circumstances beyond his 
control
>       10
> - He didn't have to leave the DEs, it was a choice to become a 
> traitor      11 

He made a choice.
 
> 11.
> - Snape's primary reason for turning against Voldemort is revenge
>       12
> - Snape never cared about anyone or anything enough to want revenge
>       13

How about "none of the above?  You see, I don't think he sought 
revenge when he left; it was more about who could satisfy his need 
for a father figure.  OTOH, I *do* think he joined the DEs with 
revenge in mind, and he *does* care, at least about himself, and 
about succeeding at what he does.    
 
> 12.
> - His original motivation for joining the DEs was gaining power, 
and 
> once he's been humiliated and tortured by Voldie he leaves, bent
> on revenge    PRINCE OF LIES
> - Voldy killed/threatened Snape's wife and/or child  
>       SWINDLED/Snape!Son

Well, I can definitely buy the part about leaving the DEs after 
being humiliated by Voldy, as long as there's more than revenge 
involved.  Though I wouldn't say that Snape wants power so much as 
wants to be in control.
 
> None of the above = You are a very irritating/ 
> indecisive/unpigeonholeable holist, *or* a genius who has come up 
> with something new, *or* I'm utterly useless and have missed out 
> large chunks of previously espoused theory.

What, you didn't find my theory buried in 120,000 posts in a couple 
of days' searching?  I am astonished!  ;-)

Rest assured, most people find me unpigeonholeable.  As far as I can 
tell, I am a Steady State LOLLIPOPS PRINCE OF LIES GEORGEian.  

I was late to the Snape party and the theories had all been named 
and claimed by the time I spoke up, but here's my original Snape 
post with at least part of the theory.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37699  

I guess I should give the theory a name.  How about WHO'S MY MENTOR? 
(Who Helps Our Snape, Mentors Youth, Meanwhile Earns Necessary Trust 
Or Revulsion?). 


> As a brave attempt to start off some discussion, I'll say that my 
> personal favourite is MERCY II (in the non-ethical sense).  

I have to say that, after reflecting on each of the theories 
captured in your excellent synopsis, while I still *like* my theory 
as much as ever, the life-debt theories like MERCY II are 
exceedingly plausible.  However, I think I would be disappointed if 
Snape's defection from the DEs was magically motivated.  I'd find it 
much more satisfying for him to agonize over the decision rather 
than solely agonize over the irony of being compelled to save his 
worst enemy, and then his enemy's son. 

I have 
> great difficulty with the idea that Snape developed a distaste for 
> the DE antics and a brand new shiny set of morals, yet kept his 
> meanness and enjoyment of inflicting wounds (if only verbal these 
> days) on the defenceless.  I'm an adherent of SPACEMAN – I
> like my Snape nasty.     

I can see how this may be hard, but I think my theory holds together 
because it posits that (i) Snape understood the moral issues all 
along, (ii) ditched them along with his rejection of Dumbledore for 
a better mentor, and (iii) ditched Voldemort in favor of Dumbledore 
because Voldemort only wanted toadies and had nothing to offer in 
return.  

Besides, plenty of moral people harbor grudges.  And act on them.  

> But, the idea that Snape had a wife is just... (too much wine 
> speaking here) *wrong*.  Much as I like the idea that he switched 
> sides wanting revenge - it seems more plausible than any of the 
> other emotion-based theories - I can't see him getting hitched.  

No wife!  Revenge, OTOH, seems very Snape-like, yet I can't see him 
acting *solely* for revenge.

> On the other hand, many have argued that DD wouldn't trust him 
> unless he had truly converted to the good guys side.  I, however, 
> think that DD would be far more likely to trust a non-
philosophical 
> reason – I just can't picture the scene: Snape convincing DD
> that he's really honestly genuinely unequivocally a nice chap
> now.  DD the legilimens + Snape the Occlumens = stalemate.  Nah, 
> sorry, I don't buy it, and I don't think DD did.

Snape Is Not A Nice Chap.  Yet he can still be really and truly on 
the good guys' side.  Dumbledore has more to offer him than 
Voldemort (even if Dumbledore won't use Dark Arts and refuses to 
give Snape the DADA job so he can use them).  If nothing else, 
Dumbledore will protect him as Voldemort would not.  (Coward!Snape, 
anyone?)  Surely Dumbledore the legilimens sees all this when Snape 
shows up on the doorstep.
 
> We don't know anything about Snape's trial, except that DD
> gave evidence and Snape was cleared.  His trial obviously happened 
> after GH, because in GoF, Sirius didn't know that he had ever
> been a DE.  Was someone other than Karkaroff a snitch?  If so, 
who?  
> Was it a DE?  Was it someone else who was later cleared?  Would DD 
> *really* have insisted after Voldy's fall that Snape turn himself 
in 
> for a full criminal trial, certain that he'd get off with DD's 
> support?  (I've never seen this discussed before, if someone can 
> point me to a post, I'd be much obliged.)

I'm sure this has come up before.  I don't believe Snape was ever 
formally tried, because the trials were public (Fudge says in GoF 
that Harry could have found the names of the acquitted DEs in old 
reports of the trials), yet no one seems even to be aware that Snape 
was accused.  Moreover, Crouch Sr. says that Snape was "cleared" 
not "acquitted" and that Dumbledore "vouched for" him.  Whoever 
accused Snape must have done so in a secret, grand-jury type 
hearing, and Dumbledore must have stepped forward right away to give 
his evidence so that Snape would not be brought to Azkaban.   
Karkaroff's testimony (which also named Snape) must have occurred in 
such a hearing.  I'm sure Karkaroff was not the only suspect to 
engineer a secret deal to get off without a trial in exchange for 
providing information.

> So anyway, poor Snapey's left working for people he doesn't
> like, for a cause in which he doesn't believe, in order to defeat
> a Dark Lord he reveres, and the friends with whom he agrees.  Poor 
> chap.

I knew there was something I didn't like about MERCY!

Debbie