Snape and Occlumency

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 121587


Inkling wrote:
<snipped>
> Here's another worrisome incident during the occulmency lessons:
> 
> During the second lesson, just before Harry does the Protego charm 
> that reverses the legilimens spell onto Snape, he is able to see 
> Snape for the first time while under the legilimens spell and 
> notices that Snape is muttering under his breath while fixing his 
> eyes on Harry's face.  Now, whats up with that?  I thought you did 
> the incantation Legilimens, and then observed the contents of the 
> target's mind, drawing whatever conclusions you could.  Instead it 
> seems that Snape is going further and actually muttering 
> incantations while he is inside Harry's mind.  What is he doing?
> 

Dungrollin:
Yeah, well, we all think different things about Occlumency and 
Legilimency, don't we?  There's no evidence to suggest that you only 
have to say "Legilimens" once, as this is the only time we ever see 
what Snape's doing while Harry's under.  It's a good point though.  
You might have to keep repeating "Legilimens... Legilimens... 
Legilimens... Oh for God's sake Potter, *try*! ... Legilimens..." 


Inkling:
> And -- there was a long thread on this subject here a little while 
> ago -- Just before the battle at the Ministry at the end of the 
> book, it would seem that Snape was the only one is a position to 
> inform both sides of the fact that the kids had in fact left for 
> the ministry, and when they left (I'm sure, as a Death Eater he 
> can see Thestrals -- he may well have seen them take off, and 
> could calculate when they'd arrive).  

Dungrollin:
Yes, he can see Thestrals, JKR has confirmed that, but he'd have had 
to have been looking out of a window in the right direction at 
exactly the right time to see them take off.  And doesn't he inhabit 
the dungeons?  Are there any windows?  

Inkling:
Somehow, the Death Eaters 
> got there long before the Order members, with more than enough 
> time to overcome the kids and get the prophecy, had they been more 
> competent.
> 
> The Death Eaters seemed to know just when the kids would arrive.  
> This is information that Kreacher could not have provided.  And I 
> don't think LV's mindreading of Harry is that advanced or that 
> precise.  So how did they know?

Dungrollin:
They didn't know.  Voldy baited the trap with the vision of Sirius, 
then they waited. (Evil henchmen always get the tedious jobs.)  Of 
course they were there before the Order members, they were the ones 
who knew (or hoped) that Harry would come to the DoM.  The Order 
members were scrambled at short notice by Snape.  If Snape were 
*really* working for LV, why alert the Order at all?  Voldy gets the 
prophecy, the DEs capture and/or kill Harry and the others, Snape 
gets to leave the job he hates teaching those awful kids and goes 
back to Voldy (who, with Harry's death, cannot be vanquished) to 
live happily ever after.

Chapter thirty-five: Beyond the Veil
"Black shapes were emerging out of thin air all around them, 
blocking their way left and right; eyes glinted through slits in 
hoods, a dozen lit wandtips were pointing directly at their hearts; 
Ginny gave a gasp of horror."

An interesting question is what was happening there.  There's no 
cracking noise remeniscent of apparation, but similarly you'd expect 
both Harry and the narrator to recognise invisibility cloaks, so 
it's unlikely that the DEs were hidden under them waiting.  However, 
back in PS (The Mirror of Erised), DD says "I don't need a cloak to 
become invisible."  I'd guess that they were hidden and waiting 
using the same method.

Dungrollin