Salazar & Slytherin - Quality of Qualities.

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 121862


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Alla Originally Quted:
>
> ""Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar
> Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare 
> gift, Parseltongue - resourcefulness - determination - a certain 
> disregard for rules," he added, his mustache quivvering again. "Yet 
> the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. 
> Think". -p.333,Cos, paperback.
>  
> I frankly do NOT see any sign of Dumbledore praising those traits.
> Salazar prized them, yes, Dumbledore - nope."

 
> Del replies:
>
> He did call them *qualities*, didn't he?
>  
> This passage is very clear to me, ... considered together with 
> Harry's Sorting. Each Founder favoured certain specific qualities: 
> .... Harry has got many of the qualities that Slytherin liked, and 
> ... many ... Gryffindor liked. ...  because he has so many qualities
> that belong to different "Founder-sets". ..., the Hat's choice was 
> ... between Gryffindor and Slytherin, at about 50-50. The Hat 
> couldn't reach a decision ...Harry's plea determined its choice: 
> ....
 
> Alla Responds to Del:
> 
> Isn't "quality" a neutral word? 
> 
> I will try to qualify again. ALL I was saying that it is unclear in 
> this passage that Dumbledore was praising Slytherins traits in 
> Harry. ...
> 
> ... not quite sure that Harry has 50/50 ... Gryff ...Slyth.
> 
> ... Hat did NOT even mention Slytherin at all, till Harry started 
> begging not to be put in there. ... and of course everybody has some
> qualities of different houses ...
> 
> I am just not sure Harry has it 50/50. Personally I think that he 
> will turn out to be mainly Gryffindor, .....


> Del continues:
> Note: a certain disregard for rules is *not* a Gryffindor quality, 
> .... If it were, neither Percy nor Hermione would have been
> Gryffindors, and Neville would be considered a traitor to his 
> own House .....


> Alla concludes:
> 
> ... not exactly suggesting it, just thinking about it out loud. :o)
> 
> Well, true we have Percy in Gryffindor, but Hermione learned fast to 
> bend the rules for her needs, did not she?
> 
> For the record, I am not judging her, ... I believe that breaking 
> the rules for GOOD purpose can be very good thing, but 
> I still think that "disregard for rules" can be Gryffindor trait.
>
> Just my opinion,
> 
> Alla

bboyminn responding to both Alla and Del:

I think in generally 'qualities' are neutral because the /quality/ of
the 'qualities' depends on perspective. The qualities cunning and
ruthlessness of a Slytherin is a positive thing to a Slytherin, but
not so much so to others. I think Dumbledore was simply acknowledging
 /aspects/ of Harry that parallelled the aspects of Slytherin. There
was no implication of /quality/ of qualities judgement (did that make
sense?).

I don't agree with the 50/50:Gryf/Slyth idea. I think the Sorting Hat
knew well where Harry truly belong, but it wanted to make sure Harry
knew. In a sense, the Hat tempted Harry with Slytherin, first to see
if he would be tempted, and second, to see if he had the courage,
scared as he was, to argue with a powerful magical object. 

I don't think the Hat was as cold and calculated as perhaps I make it
sound, but it is the Hat's job to test the students, and get a good
sense of them and their obvious and hidden characteristics. In
addition, I think the Hat sees far deeper into a student than any
person or even the student themselves can see. As in the example of
Neville being placed in Gryffindor. I can actually imagine Neville
arguing with the Hat /against/ Gryffindor feeling that he was not
worthy, but the Hat saw courage in Neville that neither Neville nor
his family or friends could see. 

I think the Hat saw that same courage deep inside Harry, and knew
Harry belonged in Gryffindor; again, to some extent, Gryffindor was
his destiny. So, that Hat seemed to see far more in Harry than
certainly Harry, or his friends, or even we the readers saw in him. 

He certainly would have done well in Ravenclaw as he has a 'good
mind'. We know Harry is not unintelligent, but like a lot of teenage
boys he's not highly motivated to study hard and get good grades. But
that is a reflection of motivation not potential. Surrounded by other
academically motivated students and friends, Harry certainly would
have excelled academically.

Further, Harry would have done well in Hufflepuff. He's not afraid of
hard work when it really counts. So again, immersed in a hard working
environment, Harry would have work hard and excelled. 

Still further, Harry would have done well in Slytherin. Where his
ambition to prove himself would have been channeled in more
Slytherin-like, but not necessarily bad, ways. 

When Harry spoke against Slytherin, naturally, the Sorting Hat tested
his resolve, but I think the Hat always knew that Harry's skill and
destiny lied in Gryffindor.

As far as a /disregard for the rules/ being a Gryffindor quality, I
don't think so. Draco certainly /disregards/ the rule in a different
way than Harry does. Slytherin disregard for the rules is usually for
personal good, as in slightly dodgey business practices in the
interest of maximizing profits. Harry and Gryffindor on the other hand
have more of a sense of WHEN the rule /need/ to be disregarded for the
/greater good/. 

Slytherins have an innate and selfserving (although not always evil)
disregard for the rules, Gryffindors have more of a moral and
intellectual disregard. Let's face it, the greatest hero in all
cultures are people who knew when it was the appropriate time to break
the rules. The USA was founded on the very knowledge. When tyranny and
greed have corrupted the foundation of the rules, when obeying the
rules fosters and encourages that tyranny and corruption, then it is
time for good men (and women) to step forward and risk the consequences.

Rules are not absolute, they are a mutual agreement by the general
members of society as to a reasonable, orderly, stable, and safe
society. But there are those who would pervert that mutual agreement
to their own selfish evil ends. Then is the time for those few brave
souls to risk everything to restore reason and order to the world.

We see Harry disregard, bend, and break rules and even laws, but
beyond petty mischief, it is alway to his own risk and potential
detriment, and for the greater good of others.

Slytherins disregard the rules, Gryffindors know WHEN to disregard the
rules. Those are functionally similar, both are willing to break the
rules, but they are founded in much different motivations. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn (was bboy_mn)