Salazar & Slytherin - Quality of Qualities.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 121905


 bboyminn wrote:
> I think Dumbledore was simply acknowledging  /aspects/ of Harry that
parallelled the aspects of Slytherin. There was no implication of
/quality/ of qualities judgement (did that make sense?).
> 
> Del replied:
> It makes sense in itself, but it doesn't make sense to me in the
context. Harry was feeling low because he was *afraid* he might be a
better Slytherin than Gryffindor. So DD telling him "Oh yeah, you do
have a lot of what you yourself consider as Slytherin bad traits"
wouldn't be exactly *helping* IMO. I personally think that DD was
telling him that, yes, he did have those traits, but that he should
consider them as positive traits, and that they weren't even his only
good traits.

Carol responds:
I'm not sure who to agree with here. The noun "quality," in the sense
of a trait or characteristic, *is* generally neutral (unlike "asset"
or "virtue"), but surely the qualities Dumbledore chooses to list as
being valued by Salazar Slytherin, resourcefulness and determination,
would be considered by most people, including Dumbledore and Harry, as
good in themselves (unlike ambition, which amounts to a tragic flaw in
Shakespeare and seems to be simlarly regarded by JKR, but which is
nevertheless a necessary trait for success in most careers). At any
rate, I agree with Del that Dumbledore is attempting to comfort Harry,
and this passage does seem to indicate that Slytherin House itself is
not all bad and that Harry should not look down on himself because the
Hat considered placing him there.


> Bboyminn wrote: 
> <snip> I think the Sorting Hat knew well where Harry truly belong,
but it wanted to make sure Harry knew. In a sense, the Hat tempted
Harry with Slytherin, first to see if he would be tempted, and second,
to see if he had the courage, scared as he was, to argue with a
powerful magical object. 
> 
> Del replied:
> To me, when the Hat confirmed in CoS that Harry had been hard to
> place, it sure didn't sound like the Hat had known all along where
he was going to place him. <snip>

Carol responds:
Just a reminder, as Steve (I think) has pointed out in earlier
threads, the Hat doesn't even bring up Slytherin until Harry thinks
"*Not Slytherin! Not Slytherin!*" Only then does it state that he
would do well there and ask him if he's sure, in essence offering him
the choice to accept or reject the greatness Slytherin could offer him
(SS Am. ed. 121). I don't see this as a test but a way of making sure
that this is what Harry wants. Then, with Slytherin out of the
running, the Hat opts for Gryffindor over Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff as
the House most suitable for a person with Harry's "qualities." 


> Bboyminn wrote:
> Slytherins disregard the rules, Gryffindors know WHEN to disregard
the rules. Those are functionally similar, both are willing to break
the rules, but they are founded in much different motivations. "
> 
> Del replied:
> I disagree.
> In PoA, for example, Harry bent the rules for his own very private
profit when he went to Hogsmeade without authorisation. In GoF, he
went roaming the castle at night for his own interest, when he went to
the Prefects' bathroom. In OoP, he broke into Umbridge's office for
his own interest. I think that Harry is a true Slytherin *on that
matter* : he disregards the rules in general.
> And as Potioncat already mentioned, the Twins spend A LOT of time
breaking the rules for their own interest.
> As for the Slytherins, apart from Draco and his two buddies, we
rarely see any of them breaking rules that the other Houses
(especially Gryffindor) don't break just as much, like fighting in the
corridors. <snip>

Carol responds:
If Slytherin House is notable for rule-breaking, it's ironic that
Snape is the rule-enforcer in the first four books. (We see less of
that in OoP, where Snape is not concerned about Harry ecountering
danger in the corridors or Hogsmeade; here the focus shifts to the
dangers in Harry's own head and Snape is again the enforcer, trying
(unsuccessfully) to get Harry to block Voldemort's intrusions into his
mind.)

There's no need to list again all the rules that Harry has broken,
whether for personal or altruistic reasons, taking Ron and Hermione
along with them. Also, in addition to the twins as consummate
Gryffindor rule-breakers, we have MWPP, who were illegally becoming
animagi in part to help a friend but also for their own enjoyment.
("Wish it was a full moon," says Sirius, rather inconsiderately
ignoring Remus's feelings on the matter. And the older Sirius says,
"The risk is what would have made it fun for James." Not to mention
the incantations necessary to reveal and hide the contents of the
Marauder's Map: "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good" and
"Mischief managed." It was fun to break the rules and see what they
could get away with, and detention was certainly no deterrent.) Even
McGonagall breaks or bends a rule early in SS/PS. Rather than
punishing Harry for disobeying Madam Hooch, she procures a broom for
him (first-years aren't allowed brooms) so he can be on the Quidditch
team. Not exactly altruism. More like House spirit.

I'd say it's fair to state that "a certain disregard for the
rules"--not necessarily in a noble cause--is at least as much a
Gryffindor trait as a Slytherin one.

Carol, wondering which House Mundungus belonged to