Salazar & Slytherin - More Quality of Qualities.

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 122047


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:

bboyminn:

Quick replys to both Del and Carol.


> 
>  bboyminn wrote:
> > I think Dumbledore was simply acknowledging  /aspects/ of Harry 
> > that parallelled the aspects of Slytherin. There was no 
> > implication of /quality/ of qualities judgement (did that make 
> > sense?).

> > Del replied:
> > It makes sense in itself, but it doesn't make sense to me in the
> context. Harry was feeling low because he was *afraid* he might be a
> better Slytherin than Gryffindor. ... I personally think that DD was
> telling him that, yes, he did have those traits, but that he should
> consider them as positive traits, and that they weren't even his 
> only good traits.
 
> Carol responds:
> I'm not sure who to agree with here. ... surely the qualities 
> Dumbledore chooses to list as being valued by Salazar Slytherin, 
> resourcefulness and determination, would be considered by most 
> people, ..., as good ... At any rate, I agree with Del that 
> Dumbledore is attempting to comfort Harry, ...
 
bboyminn:

True, Dumbledore is comforting Harry, but the comfort is not in
comparing him to Slytherin. The comfort is in letting Harry know that
independant of any Slytherin-like characteristics he may have, there
is a greater and far more important reason for him to be where he is,
and that is choice.

The whole scene is leading up to Dumbledore's immortal words which I
shall paraphrase, it is our choices far more than our /aspects/ that
tell us and the world who and what we really are. Then Dumbledore
showed Harry Gryffindor's sword to further solidify Harry as a true
Gryffindor.

One last point, certainly Harry has characteristics that could have
been nurtured by Slytherin, I have already admitted that. But those
same characteristics can also be nurtured in a different way by
Gryffindor. In addition, Harry has some essense of Voldemort in him,
the ultimate Slytherin, and the Sorting Hat would have surely seen
that essense and responded to it. 

The Sorting Hat is concerned with WHAT it sees in a student, not why.
The Hat would never ponder why is saw Slytherin/Voldemort in Harry any
more than it would question why is saw Gryffindor in Neville.

All that said, with Voldemort-essense influence, I think the Hat saw
both strong Slytherin and strong Gryffindor characteristics in Harry,
and while it considered Harry's plea of 'not Slytherin', I think it
had more than enough information to make the same decision without
Harry's request.


 
> > Bboyminn wrote: 
> > <snip> I think the Sorting Hat knew well where Harry truly belong,
> but it wanted to make sure Harry knew. ...

> > Del replied:
> > To me, when the Hat confirmed in CoS that Harry had been hard to
> > place, it sure didn't sound like the Hat had known all along where
> > he was going to place him. <snip>

> Carol responds:
> Just a reminder, as Steve (I think) has pointed out in earlier
> threads, the Hat doesn't even bring up Slytherin until Harry thinks
> "*Not Slytherin! Not Slytherin!*" Only then does it state that he
> would do well there and ask him if he's sure, in essence offering 
> him the choice ...

bboyminn:

In my original post, I acknowledge that Harry had aspects of himself
that would allow him to do well in any of the Houses. I still say that
Gryffindor aspects out weighed Slytherin. But will further acknowledge
that Gryffindor and Slytherin aspects were probably greater than
either Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. 


> Carol continues:
>
> I don't see this as a test but a way of making sure  that this is 
> what Harry wants. ...

bboyminn:

Del brought up my use of 'test' in his post too, and also didn't favor
it. I now regret having chose that word as I did not mean it in the
context that others took it. I meant to 'evaluate' rather than to
quiz, and I guess my own examples somewhat forced the unintended
'quiz' context. 

The Sorting Hat's job is to probe deep inside each student, to probe
down to their core and true essense, and discover it, and with that
information determine which is the appropraite House. That is the test
I was referring to; we have a question, data upon which to base an
answer, and the answer.



> > Bboyminn wrote:
> > Slytherins disregard the rules, Gryffindors know WHEN to disregard
> > the rules. Those are functionally similar, both are willing to 
> > break the rules, but they are founded in much different 
> > motivations. "

> > Del replied:
> > I disagree.
> > In PoA, for example, Harry bent the rules for his own very private
> > profit when he went to Hogsmeade without authorisation. ....
 
> Carol responds:
> If Slytherin House is notable for rule-breaking, it's ironic that
> Snape is the rule-enforcer in the first four books. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> I'd say it's fair to state that "a certain disregard for the
> rules"--not necessarily in a noble cause--is at least as much a
> Gryffindor trait as a Slytherin one.
> 
> Carol, ...

bboyminn:

I think Del is confusing mischief rule breaking, which I suspect is
uniform among all houses, and to some extent, among all studetns, with
serious rule breaking, whether based on serious intent or on the
breach of serious rules.

Draco frequently tries to attack Harry both physically and
psychologically. Harry primarily defends himself, and Harry is
unlikely to attack anyone if he's left alone. That's a big difference.

True Harry sneaks out to Hogsmeade, but who would likely be hurt by
that, and when we consider the quality, quantity, and potential for
hurt, we must do so from the perspective of a schoolboy who wants to
go to the village. From that perspective, it's unlikely that any harm
could be caused; but remember that's a schoolboy perspective.

Wandering around to the Prefects Bathroom, was a violation of curfew,
but in all likelihood, if Harry had asked permission to work on the
clue afterhours when he wouldn't be disturbed or distracted, he would
have likely gotten permission. So, I don't see that as such a
horrendous breach of the rules. 

True, he used the Inv-Cloak to sneak off to the library after hours,
but who does that hurt? On the otherhand, Draco attacking Harry
verbally and physically does hurt, and certainly reflects a completely
different regard for rule breaking than Harry's action do.

Draco's disregard for the rules are primarily to his benefit and the
detriment of others. Harry rule breaking, when it really counts, is
for the greater good, and to his own great potential detriment. On
those lesser occassions when he breaks the rules for his own benefit,
it is usually at the risk of his own detriment rather than that of
others. See the difference? The key to isn't 'rules', it's the nature
of 'disregard'. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn (was bboy_mn)