In Defense of Snape (VERY long)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 122048


Hester Prinn wrote:


There's been a lot of posts lately, touching on Professor Snape and 
accusing him of everything from incompetent teaching to out and out 
sadism.  And while I could respond to each and every post, (thereby 
opening myself to a death by one thousand pin-pricks <g>) I thought 
I'd save myself some time and defend him in one fell post.  (And let 
me state up front -- I'm not dealing with ESE!Snape or any of the 
popular conspiracies.  I'm just taking Snape as he's been presented 
by JKR so far and assuming no sudden twists.)
  
First things first, Snape is not the nicest of men.  He's quick to 
take offense, slow to forgive, and he's got a rapier wit he's not 
afraid to use.  Plus, he loves him his House.  However, he's a damn 
fine teacher, brave to a fault, and quite willing... well... maybe 
not willing, but certainly able to put his personal feelings aside 
to get a job done.


Alla:

All right, how can I not answer this one? :o) Keep in mind, that I 
will be quoting a lot.

First and foremost I keep asking this question all the time and I 
did not get the satisfactory answer yet.

So, maybe you can help me out :o) 
Since when in order to be a good human being, you don't have to 
be "nice" human being?

I hear this argument all the time. Snape is a good man, but he is 
not a nice man. You know, in my book " not nice" quite often 
equals "bad" in a worst sense of this word.


Nora in 121315 said:

"Is it proper to draw the line between methods and broader objectives
for Snape, who often *does* seem intent upon causing emotional harm
to the students (I'm thinking specifically Neville here, but there
are other instances, oft-debated, that come to mind)? You know, the
also oft-debated 'sadistic' descriptor (JKR's words, not only mine),
for someone who gets enjoyment out of the discomfiture of others. I
see that intention sneaks its way back into your formulations fairly
quickly, which opens a whole new can of worms, the means and ends
can. Rowling has opened that can with the formulation of Slytherin
ethoi as "any means to achieve their ends", which has been so far
implicitly condemned.





..
"I think niceness is an underrated virtue, to be honest. I'm talking
about the genuine article, without the connotations of fakeness that
it so often carries. I would rather formulate it this way: to treat
people in a way that is not nice is not a trivial thing, but rather
a statement of how you regard that person and their right to
subjectivity. It is not generally possible to be a *good* person
without treating people well.

So you can be someone who is not a good person, but still does some
good things."



Hester:
  
> I can feel you itching to bring up Neville.  Why oh why does Snape 
pick on poor Neville?  On the very first day of class Neville 
manages to melt Seamus's cauldron, cover himself in boils and burn 
holes in the shoes of his fellow students.  Oh and the class, she 
was disrupted.  Neville's first impression was not a good one.  And 
I did say that Professor Snape is not a nice man.   However, Harry 
notes that Neville seems happy during their potions practical for 
the O.W.L's (ibid pg. 716).  Which suggests that Neville may have 
actually done all right on his exam   Which would suggest that 
despite his not so nice methods, Snape is still one heck of a 
teacher.


Nora in 113106 said:

"Snape was Neville's worst fear in PoA. Granted, Neville is tough and
he seems to have gotten past some of that...but that is telling. Let
me throw in a great quote here, although it doesn't completely apply.

"What is moral cruelty? It is not just a matter of hurting someone's
feelings. It is deliberate and persistent humiliation, so that the
victim can eventually trust neither himself nor anyone else."

If Neville were less tough, or had less supportive friends, I can see
him turning out that way. And it's absolutely no excuse for Snape
that he didn't, unless you *want* to play a strict no-harm-no-foul
rule on ethics, here. I don't think any of us do, because the
results across the board are unpleasant. [Pr*nk arguments, anyone?
No one *actually* got hurt, right? What's the problem, then?] [I
break my own rule here--I don't argue Prank threads without the
evidence we're missing. But it's a good illustration of why the
unknown or elusive intention needs to be factored in, not just the
results.]"


 Hester:
 
> ***Snape and Harry***
>  
> And here's where we really get down to it, because the story is 
told from Harry's POV.  Harry has no love for Snape, and he's quite 
sure Snape hates him.  Everything we know about Snape we learn 
through Harry's eyes, and the first impression, at least on the 
surface, is not good.  Beyond the whole, "Argh! My scar!" thing that 
we later learn was caused by Quirrell's Vapor!Mort turban of doom, 
Harry's first Potions class is less than smooth.  That is where 
Harry decides Snape hates him.
  
But what was Snape doing there?  As posited above, Snape is a good 
teacher.  His opening speech smacks of a well rehearsed drama 
establishing several things at once.  Snape knows his subject, and 
it's a cool one ("bottle fame" and "stopper death" -- what's not to 
love?).  His students had better do their reading if they don't want 
to get humiliated like the first poor dumb schmuck the professor 
called on.  And they better listen to every word he says.  Note how 
he snaps at the class for not taking down the correct answers to the 
questions he asked Harry.  There's no canon for this, but I wouldn't 
be surprised if Snape starts off his first year's class in exactly 
the same way, every year.
>  
> Of course, he picked Harry to be the poor dumb schmuck this time, 
and I think there were several motives behind his choice.  The ugly, 
petty motive was that Harry is the son of James.  A motive I don't 
think Snape is above.  But Harry is also a celebrity, and Hogwarts 
is abuzz.  The students are all excited, but the teachers aren't 
immune either.  (Witness Flitwick falling off his desk in excitement 
in PS on pg. 133.)  Snape is establishing that Harry's fame will not 
get him anywhere in Snape's classroom.  Harry will be judged on his 
potion abilities and nothing more.  This particular motive is not a 
bad one.  Snape has not met Harry yet, and I imagine there was a 
real worry that his fame would go to his head.  Snape is nipping a 
potential problem in the bud.  I think it's important to notice that 
Snape doesn't take points for Harry's ignorance.  Harry talks back 
to Snape, and Snape takes a point away from Gryffindor, "for [his] 
cheek." (PS pg. 138)



Alla:


Forgive me, but I am now going to quote from my post 113925, because 
I said it quite a few times.

"In regard to your next point - please, please, don't think that I am
picking up on you, please feel free to disagree as much as you can,
but I think that if I hear again "slapping Harry's ego down" as
justification of Snape's abuse of him, I am going to bang my head
against the wall. :o)

Harry did not have ANY ego to be slapped down, when Snape attacked
him on the first lesson.

Harry did not have any ego to be slapped down, when Snape kept
reminding him how bad his dead father was.

Harry did not have any ego to be slapped down, when in GOF he tried
to find Dumbledore to tell him about Moody and Snape kept mocking
him instead, etc.,etc.

Harry is being angry in OOP (and often undeservingly) was so not
the equivalent of swollen ego, but normal adolescent reaction at
being fed up of people keeping him in the dark, IMO."

 Alla wrote in 112968:

I am trying to pick the strongest reason for my partial (although
very strong one) dislike of Snape personality and the fact that
Snape enjoys causing other human beings emotional pain comes back
over and over again.

I am having a lot of trouble calling such person a "good one"

Hmmm. Which examples to choose?.


1. The first Potions lesson inn PS/SS was cited so many times, that
I really don't want to do it again today.
I may even agree with you that Potions, which Snape mentions
especially putting "stopper in death" will become important at the
end, but you are not saying that Snape KNEW that in PS/SS?
I mean, it would be a nice foreshadowing, but what Snape got to do
with it? How it makes his absolutely undeserved attack at Harry, who
just been thrown out in the world unknown , looks less sadistic?


2. Then we have Snape ranting and raving about James all through
PoA (you are just like your father, Potter).

Since GoF is the book I reread most recently, I will quote couple
scenes from there.

3.
GOF, when Pansy throws at Hermione the copy of "Witch Weekly". Snape
takes the magazine away from them. I can understand that. Even
though Trio did not bring it to the lessons, you are not supposed to
read the paper during the potions lessons, so I will pretend that
Snape does not know who brought the magazine to class.

I would even be able to let it pass, if Snape say took points and
let it be, but he decides to read the magazine out loud.

"The dungeon rang with Slytherin's laughter, and an unpleasant
smile curled Snape's thin mouth. To Harry's fury, he began to read
the article aloud.
"Harry Potter's Secret Headache'... dear, dear, Potter, what's
ailing you now? "A boy like no other, perhaps..."
Harry could feel his face burning. Snape was pausing at the end of
every sentence to allow the Slytherins a hearty laugh. The article
sounded ten times worse when read by Snape. Even Hermione was
blushing scarlet by now" - p.515, paperback, GoF

4.
Harry trying to warn Dumbledore about Crouch Sr. was recently
discussed and even though I don't consider it to be the example of
ESE! Snape I definitely think of it as one of the best examples of
Snape's sadistic nature.
Here is the quote:

"Mr. Crouch!" Harry shouted. "From the Ministry! He is ill or
something - he is in the forest, he wants to see Dumbledore! Just
give me the password up to ----"
The headmaster is busy, Potter," said Snape, his thin mouth curling
into unpleasant smile.
"I've got to tell Dumbledore!" Harry yelled.
"Didn't you hear me, Potter?"
Harry could tell Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying
Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky.
"Look," said Harry angrily, "Crouch isn't right --- he's --- he's
out of his mind - he says he wants to warn----" - GoF, p.558,
paperback.

There is nothing in this scene that Harry even theoretically done
wrong, he is worried about Crouch, he is scared and nervous.
I am willing to assume that Snape knew that Dumbledore is in his
office. What exactly stopped him from telling Harry to wait a minute
and Headmaster will be here? I think nothing except Snape being
Snape.

Many argued that Harry is able to handle what Snape throws at him.
yes, I said many times that Harry is not Neville, but why should it
matter?
I think Snape's intentions should matter, not Harry's strength.
But, I think I posted earlier that Snape does manage to make Harry
afraid of himself in OOP (to his delight, I am sure :o)).


"Wondering what on earth was doing here, he jumped when Snape's cold
voice came out of the corner.
"Shut the door behind you, Potter."
Harry did as he was told with the horrible feeling that he was
imprisoning himself as he did so." -OOP, paperback, p.529


"Snape pulled out his wand from an inside pocket of his robes and
Harry tensed in his chair, but Snape merely raised the wand to his
temple and placed its tip into the greasy roots of his hair" - OOP,
paperback, p.533.


Hester:
 
But there's another motive that Snape would have forefront in his 
mind.  Especially with the recent Death Eater activity.  Remember, 
Snape is not just a teacher, he's a spy.  And the known top dog of 
the Death Eaters appears to be (and Snape would most likely know for 
sure - though we, the readers, don't) Lucius Malfoy.  It makes a 
whole lot of sense for Snape to seem very anti-Harry Potter in front 
of Malfoy's son, Draco.  In fact, it would be stupid for Snape to 
appear any other way.


Alla:


Not necessarily. In fact, I think it would make much more sense for 
Snape to be NICE to Harry, if he is indeed a double agent, Keep in 
mind that it is NOT a given that he is a spy, it is NOT a given  
that Voldemort does not know that Snape betrayed him, therefore I am 
not sure whether this motive even comes into play.


Hester:
Of course, Harry is too young and too naive, especially in book one, 
to realize any of these motives, and so he settles on the 
simple, "Snape hates me."  I doubt Snape feels that strongly about 
Harry in the beginning.   I think Harry frustrates the hell out of 
Snape, as Snape spends most of his time trying to keep Harry safe 
and Harry keeps stumbling into danger, but I honestly think 'hate' 
is too strong a word.


Alla:

Not sure about "hate", but pretty sure based on the above quotes in 
Occlumency disaster that Snape enjoys seeing Harry suffer because 
Snape sees James in him.



Hester:
 
> ***The Difference an OotP Makes***
> It made so much sense for Snape to up his nasty behavior towards 
Harry.  He's supposed to appear friendly towards Voldemort's side, 
and he's constantly in the presence of children of known Death 
Eaters.  The easiest way to keep up appearances is to be mean to 
Dumbledore's golden child, especially as Dumbledore's grip on the 
school is slipping.  The fact that Harry so closely resembles 
someone Snape obviously loathed probably made Snape's job easier, 
but I honestly think that until Harry stuck his head into Snape's 
Pensieve, most of it was role-play.  Once Harry did the equivalent 
of reading Snape's personal journal, I do think Snape was genuinely 
furious with Harry.  


Alla:

Hmmm. Oscarwinning!Snape... I am sorry, I am not buying. First and 
foremost because I am not sure that Snape ever returned to 
Voldemort. I think that he either does something we don't suspect 
yet. or spies by unconventional methods, which have nothing to do 
with returning to Voldemort. JMO, of course.

Hester:
 
And frankly, Snape's anger was understandable.  Throughout the 
Occlumency lessons, Harry's behavior was pretty bad, and he was 
obviously not trying.  I know this has been debated 'til the cows 
come home, but barring any ulterior motive not yet revealed, Snape 
was trying to teach the boy, and the boy was unwilling to learn.  
Snape was endangering his role by spending private time with Harry, 
and Harry was basically making Snape's risk meaningless.

Alla:

This was indeed debated many times, but I would say that Harry's 
anger was understandable. And NO, we don't know whether Snape was 
willing to teach the boy, or Dumbledore simply forced him to do so.

And I certainly would not call what Snape did "teaching", but more 
like falling into hysterics and insults, every time Harry did 
something he did not like.
  


Hester:

> Much has been made of the final interaction between Snape and 
Harry.  How could Snape be so mean and cruel as to actually uphold 
the rules of Hogwarts by disciplining a student that admitted to 
trying to curse another student?  Put aside the fact that Snape was 
actually fairly mild in his treatment of Harry.  HE. IS. A. SPY!!!  
Harry was attempting to curse Draco Malfoy.  Only a great fool would 
have done nothing out of sympathy towards Harry and once again risk 
exposure.  Snape, no matter what you think of him, is no fool.


Alla:

NO, we DON'T KNOW for sure that he is spy.

Hester:

So that's my defense of Snape.  Every school has its scary teacher 
and every war has its spies.  Snape fulfills both roles with 
singular style.  I hope that by series end, Harry finally realizes, 
and the readers are finally shown, just how good a man Snape (the 
greasy, snarking, bastard) really is.


Alla in 113962 said:


I DON'T think that Snape is motivated by sheer cruelty as to all his
actions, or at least I HOPE he is NOT.
I even hope that Snape had some noble (or at least close to noble)
reasons for leaving Voldemort.

But I definitely think that cruelty is one of his motivations in
regard to Harry and I don't see how one contradicts another.

I am not saying that Snape is JUST a nasty man who hates kids and
can't tell Harry from James, but I am definitely saying that he IS a
nasty man who hates kids and can't tell Harry from James, in
addition to that character quality, he , IMO has many other
qualities, some of which I like very much.

Of course, he may turn out to be totally different kind of person at
the end, you know, decent and noble, but he may also turn out to be
worse than I imagine him to be - you know, traitor and ESE! after
all. Too bad we don't know what Snape is thinking. :o)"

Please forgive me for quoting so much and I hope Nora doesn't
mind 
that I brought her posts into mine again. :o)

Just my opinion,


Alla