[HPforGrownups] Re: Favorite Snape Scenes - He's such a lovely professor, no really.

[Vivamus]

No: HPFGUIDX 122269

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vivamus" <Vivamus at T...> wrote:
> > The real thing that sticks in my craw about Severus is that he
> *still* treats Harry horribly when they are alone, even when he
> *knows* Harry truly IS a hero, and when he knows Harry is 
> smart enough not to go blabbing to others that SS is really a 
> good guy.  I think that adds up to SS being mean, petty, 
> vindictive, and unforgiving, but also to his being broken 
> from something that happened a long time ago that he cannot 
> forget or let go.
> (Snip> 
> > Vivamus
> 
> 
> Tonks here:
> First Harry is a child. Normally he would never have been 
> told all of the things that he knows about because he is a 
> child and has no business in adult affairs.  It is only 
> because he is the prophesy child that he is told anything. 
> Second Snape is a spy and this is not a game. This is serious 
> and dangerous work that Snape is doing. 
> Why should he let down his guard for some kid who will first 
> blab to his friends and Snape knows who else!!!  Snape is not 
> stupid you know. Even WE know that he will tell Ron and 
> Hermione!! And even if he doesn't he will start acting 
> differently toward Snape. There will not be the same amount 
> of hatred in his eyes and someone will notice. 
> 
> Also just because we think that Snape is on the side of DD 
> and the good does not mean that his basic personally is 
> suddenly altered.  
> He is a flawed human being and will continue to be. I think 
> that, as I have said before, that JKR is showing us that 
> anyone can join in the fight against good and evil and be on 
> the side of the good.  
> Even people with very nasty personalities like Snape. 
> 
> And I know this was kind of a Snapish post. ;-) Tonks_op

Vivamus:

I completely agree with most of what you are saying, Tonks.  IF SS is indeed
a spy, which seems very strange given the DD testimony about him at a
*public* trial, but seems to be suggested by SS telling Harry, "yes, that is
my job," then he must put up a horrible front to Harry and the Gryffindors
to be convincing.  Certainly he is a flawed human being, and I also agree
that JKR is showing us that "bad" people can still make right choices, and
fight against evil.  

(I think, however, she is also showing us that "good" people can make wrong
choices -- as in the Prank, in Dobby's "help" of Harry, in Hermione's "help"
of Harry and others, etc.  In HBP, I suspect that Harry will do something
very bad, as (I think) mooseming suggested, partly to *show* this muddling
between who we are and the choices we still have ahead of us.)

Where we differ is that SS is clearly not just acting.  He may have an
excuse for acting hatefully towards Harry, but he also does hate Harry, and
he takes every opportunity to vent his feelings on him, in a very childish
way -- whether Slytherins are present or not.  We've had hints as to why,
but we don't really know, yet.   Even with his need to be convincing as a
spy, he is still mean, petty, and vindictive.  If the guess about past
brokenness is correct, and his feelings towards Harry have something to do
with Lily, then he is also unforgiving.  

I guess the fundamental difference is one of ethics.  This is war, and we
are talking about the defeat of LV, which does, I think, justify some
extraordinary measures.  At what point, however, can tormenting children be
said to be justifiable because "the end justifies the means"?  I have a hard
time excusing his behavior when he is clearly taking sadistic pleasure from
being nasty to the Gryffindors.  He has become Neville's worst nightmare.  

We do agree that he is fighting on the good guys' side, and that he is a
sad, unhappy, "very nasty" character.  My guess is that this is why DD has
never let him have the DA job -- he really *is* a nasty man, and that would
give him too much license to vent his unpleasantness on the students.

I'm expecting that, at some point in the future (probably not until after SS
has died to save Harry), someone (DD, or maybe Lupin) will tell Harry that
SS *had* to be that nasty to him, to be convincing to the DE kids.  Harry
will also find out about SS's love for Lily, and his attempt to save them
from LV in the first place, but again, only after SS is dead.  It will leave
Harry with an emotional burden of such magnitude that he will never be free
from it -- and what a wonderful plot device!   He *can't* forgive SS,
because he was a mean, nasty, vindictive man (and none of that was an act),
but he *has* to forgive SS, because SS died to save him, tried to save him
from LV in the first place, and had a (partial) justification for his
behavior towards Harry all these years.

If I'm right about that, I think it will be pointing up to one of the
better-designed coming-of-age plots in literature.

Vivamus, who is an act-deontologist.   Snickersqueak, however, disagrees,
and points out that there are no ethics in a perfect universe, only cats,
cat-toys, and attendants.  (He also wants to know why I haven't corrected
the universe's dog problem yet.)