Incomprehensible comparison of Sirius and Aragorn

[Geoff Bannister]

No: HPFGUIDX 122911


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
 
> Pippin:
>  I see a resemblance between Aragorn's treatment of Gollum 
> and Sirius's treatment of Kreacher. In each case, a  usually 
> noble, kind and generous man errs by failing to see the 
> possibility of  latent good in an inferior.
> 
> 
> Here's Aragorn, speaking of Gollum's capture:
> --
> He will never love me, I fear, for he bit me, and I was not gentle. 
> Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his 
> teeth. I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, 
> watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a 
> halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink 
> and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood. --LOTR, The 
> Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two ch 2.
> -----
> 
> Contrast this with the way that Frodo treats Gollum after taking 
> him prisoner. When Gollum screams incessantly at being tied 
> up, Frodo does not gag him. Instead, he looses Gollum and 
> makes a pact with him, even though he knows Gollum will most 
> likely prove faithless. 

Geoff:
I think the flaw lies in comparing Kreacher, who is a nasty, 
snivelling character who can create minor mayhem with the 
schizophrenic Gollum who has been under the influence of the Great 
Ring for over 500 years (c.2463-2941 Third Age according to LOTR: 
Appendix B "The Tale of Years"). 

Kreacher's most serious mischief was to mislead Harry into thinking 
that Sirius had gone to the Ministry:
"Master will not come back from the Department of Mysteries!" he said 
gleefully. "Kreacher and his mistress are alone again!" (OOTP "Out of 
the Fire" p.653 UK edition)

When Gollum is freed from the elven rope in "The Two Towers", Frodo 
uses a weapon to make Gollum obey which Aragorn does not possess...
'"No, I will not take it off you," said Frodo, "not unless -" he 
paused a moment in thought - "not unless there is any promise that 
you can make that I can trust."
"We will swear to do what he wants, yes, yess," said Gollum, still 
twisting and grabbing at his ankle. "It hurts us."
"Swear?" said Frodo.
"Smeagol," said Gollum suddenly and clearly, opening his eyes wide 
and staring at Frodo with a strange light. "Smeagol will swear on the 
Precious."
Frodo drew himself up and again Sam was startled by his words and his 
stern voice. "On the Precious? How dare you?" he said. "Think!

One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them.

Would you commit your promise to that, Smeagol? It will hold you. But 
it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. 
Beware!"'

(LOTR:TTT "The Taming of Smeagol")

Frodo did not make a /pact/ with Gollum. He threatened Gollum with 
the Ring. There is another point in the text which I cannot 
immediately locate where Frodo tells Gollum to forget ever having the 
Ring; in the last event, Frodo would use the Ring to force Gollum to 
leap into a ravine (or some similar violent end). He is not 
mollycoddling Gollum. Just before this, Gollum had violently attacked 
the hobbits and had to be forcibly restrained by Frodo with Sting.

Aragorn's dealings with Gollum were that Gandalf had enlisted his aid 
to find the miscreant about 3001 Third Age and he spent much of 3009-
17 searching for him. Your quote is when he has been found and it is 
obvious that he has been held prisoner in Mordor where the secret of 
the Ring has been prised from him. Aragorn wasn't looking for latent 
goodness but was trying to get an obstinate and devious captive by 
the quickest and most efficient way to a place where he could be held 
securely.

Kreacher and Gollum are no way in the same league. I wouldn't agree 
that Sirius and Aragorn are either. Sirius, although a likeable guy 
and obviously a great support to Harry lacks the long years of 
experience and patience which Aragorn has had to endure in order to 
be a rallying point for the forces of Middle Earth, to restore the 
kingship to Gondor and, as a issue separate to the great matters of 
the time, to be allowed to marry Arwen.