James, a paragon of virtue? Snape, a paragon of virtue?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 123434


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> 
> >Betsy wrote:
> There is an overall purpose for that scene and the
> realization that some of Snape's accusations against James are true
> (e.g. James most definitely strutted). Part of it, I'm sure, is the
> usual coming of age realization that parents are not perfect.
> 
> vmonte responds:

> I hope that Lily taught James an important lesson during that
> penseive scene. I hope this was the reason why he later saved Snape
> from Sirius's stupidity. (And I liked Sirius, but let's face it 
what he did was wrong and would have hurt Lupin as well.) 
Unfortunately, I don't believe that James did what he did to save 
Snape. I think that he saved Snape because he realized that Lupin 
would get in serious trouble (just MO).
> 


Valky:
Hi Vivian, I know it's only your opinion, sorry to bicker, but I 
don't fully agree wth you on that. 
While I agree that James is not likely to have been motivated 
entirely by selfless compassion like Harry or Lily might, I don't in 
all honesty believe that James only thought of the consequences to 
those close to him before he rushed in to save young Severus from 
the werewolf. 

Just to validate my point I will bring the second task back to the 
fray and have another look at it to explain. A lot of us have posed 
the question Why did Harry save everyone? Why did he feel the need 
to save these people who probably didn't actually need to be saved? 
I argue that it is this particular thing in Harry, which *is* James.
Lily would have thought it through as we do, Lily would have come to 
the conclusion that DD was not actually allowing helpless children 
to be in true mortal danger. And it is James who would not.
Now, time for just my own humble opinion, we have all peiced 
together amigious and shadow characters in our readerships some of 
us have gone into great depth in it. Characters such as Bertha 
Jorkins, Ludo Bagman, Sevvie of course, pre OOtP Arabella Figg, lets 
not forget Florence... my obsession is James. 
My canon James is based on a flowthrough of absolutely *everything* 
ever penned about him, so forgive me if I do not cite all the canon 
behind each conclusion and rather just posit my view, which I 
believe can speak for itself anyway.
Back to the point, I was saying James saving Severus and Remus and 
Sirius from their respective consequences that night so long ago, 
was the same as Harry saving everyone in the lake. 

He thought about it all:
If Snape reaches Remus Snape will probably die. 
If Snape gets hurt Remus will suffer. 
If anyone ever finds out its goodnight Sirius' chance at future 
happiness. 
If anyone ever finds out Dumbledore is righteously scr***ed for 
letting a werewolf eat a student......

Ifs ifs ifs.... take a look at Harry in the lake and you'll see the 
exact same thing.. and the conclusion that they both came to....
*I* am the *only* one who can save them. 
Duty, gallantry, honour, and of course the saving people thing. 
Expect it to be canonised James in HBP... a paragon of virtue? a 
saint?... in a sense, yes, absolutely. 

Remember, James risked his life for all of them, it *was* an act of 
selfless endangerment. 

I agree that it was not motivated by compassion so much, but by a 
sense of duty to Remus but extend James sense of duty and knightly 
qualities were a part of everything he does.  
 

> 
> vmonte responds:
> I agree on the idea, but I don't think this is what JKR was 
pointing out to us in this scene. Snape is a deeply horrible person! 
He has so much hatred inside of him that he cannot even accept help 
from Lily. And please don't say that he was just embarrassed and 
lashed out, this is a cop-out answer. 'Mind your own business' would 
have sufficed, right? Instead he calls her a foul name. (IMO he 
hates her in much the same way he shows contempt for Hermione. It's 
interesting that both happen to have muggle parents.)
> 


Valky:
That's a very bold statement Vivian. And I agree. :D
Love him or hate him, Snape is not nice. Its the inner struggle that 
fascinates, not the question of whether its there, for me.