From darkthirty at shaw.ca Fri Jul 1 00:16:33 2005 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:16:33 -0000 Subject: Changing the WW (was Snape's abuse ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131767 Jen Reese wrote: > But in a very subtle way JKR is advocating the most crucial change of all---inside each person is the capacity to choose good over evil, right over easy. dan: Demonstrating how it might happen, rather - envisioning it. Jen: > This is the basis for true social change, much more than a forced political or legal change within a cultural system. Granted, sometimes the forced change has to come before individual change evolves, but starting anywhere in the system can have a significant effect. dan: Contemporary liberals like John Ralston Saul and Richard Rorty say as much. I think, however, Rowling's view is more radical, more anarchic - via the DA, for example, a kind of vigilantism, really, but not called that generally derogatory term, not played that way, but played rather as, well, as partisans, say. Or are they called guerillas now, and let the name carry the negative connotation? At any rate, the DA is a vigilante, partisan guerilla group. And I support it. Not only is Rowling playing this political anarchism card, I think, but she is definitely playing the social anarchism card as well. This tacit approval of relationships based also on some internal ethical capacity, is at the heart of the books. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 01:04:30 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:04:30 -0000 Subject: Lily? In-Reply-To: <42C47023.3060705@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > I just read this quote from JKR, which I hadn't personally read before: > > Now, the - the important thing about Harry's mother - the really, really > significant thing - you're going to find out in two - in two parts. > You'll find out a lot more about her in book five, or you'll find out > something very significant about her in book five, and you'll find out > something incredibly important about her in book seven. > > I presume that this quote is the origin of the question "What is Lily's > Big Secret?" > > But, it left me wondering -- what "very significant" thing did we learn > about her in book 5? The only thing I really recall was that DD spelled > out in more detail the 'old magic' her sacrifice left in Harry. But > that's not really telling us anything *about her*. Other things, like > that she belonged to the Order and had 'thrice defied' LV, also apply to > James, and to others as well in fact. And they're not really all that > *surprising* things heh. > > Am I forgetting something, or did JKR change tack along the way? > > heather the buzzard KarentheUnicorn's Reply: The only other thing I can remember about Lily in Book 5(OOTP) is the pensive memory where she helped Snape...I don't know where else she is featured so vividly in the book. We actually get to see her doing something there, even if it is Snape's memory, so, maybe thats what JKR meant?? Karen From pipes814 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 01:02:19 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:02:19 -0000 Subject: Lily? In-Reply-To: <42C47023.3060705@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131769 Heather the buzzard wrote: > I just read this quote from JKR, which I hadn't personally read before: > I presume that this quote is the origin of the question "What is Lily's Big Secret?" > > But, it left me wondering -- what "very significant" thing did we learn > about her in book 5? > > Am I forgetting something, or did JKR change tack along the way? I'm not sure exactly what information JKR is referring to, but we did learn more about what kind of person she was in "Snape's Worst Memory" and when Harry spoke to Sirius and Lupin afterward. Maybe there's something important there? Now I have to re-read! Jamie From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 01:32:24 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:32:24 -0000 Subject: The Voice in Harry's Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131770 > Alisha: > I think the biggest evidence for it being Harry's own voice is that > it speaks in the first person. Normally, when Harry "hears voices" > in his head, they use "you". "The had didn't want to put you in > Gryffindor." (paraphrased) for example. This time, it uses "I". "I > don't think I will, thanks." (or something along those lines). If > the voice belonged to someone else, it would refer to Harry in the > second person. I re-read the reference from GoF, where Moody-Barty is putting the curse on the students in turn, and letting them try to throw it off. There is one particular line that stands out which I thought was interesting: Moody: "He fought it, and he damn near beat it! We'll try that again, Potter, and the rest of you, pay attention-WATCH HIS EYES, THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE IT-very good Potter, very good indeed" p. 232, Scholastic PB. We have all discussed what we think about Lily and the constant references to Harry's eyes being exactly like hers. Could this voice, though speaking in first person, be a part of Lily in Harry? Could this be Lily's voice that is throwing off the imperius curse? Chris From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 1 01:43:12 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:43:12 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131771 All this talk about Ginny makes me ask: In the Forbidden Forest when the sextet converges and discusses flying to London, Ginny talks about the thestrals as if she prefectly knew about them. Did Hagrid show them to the fourth years too eventhough he said he was keeping them for fifth years only? Even Luna surprises me with her knowledge but then it's Luna. How come ginny knows so much thestrals? Bye Adi From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 01:51:33 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:51:33 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: <00b401c57d23$a4b65fb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131772 sherry wrote: Funny, I was not at all surprised by Ginny in OOTP. Am I the only one who did see it coming? In each book, except POA I think, she's become a little more of a character, a little more interesting and having a little more personality. I just started reading GOF again, and actually paid attention to the scene when Harry arrives at the burrow, and he, Ron, Hermione *and* Ginny all go upstairs to avoid the wrath of Molly and the twins. Before the events in COS, Ginny would have been too shy to go socialize around Harry. It seemed like a natural maturing on her part, her trauma in the chamber wiping away the school girl in some ways forever. I can't quote canon here, but Ginny seems to me to be coming out of her shell throughout GOF, and her blossoming in OOTP wasn't at all a surprise to me. **Marcela: I would agree with you, if only Jo had had Ginny's character included in the following scenes at the World Cup... there, Jo had her falling asleep and spilling her chocolate drink while the rest was still chatting over the Final game... I mean, her characterization is that of a little girl, not one of a girl only one year younger than Ron and Harry! Also, during the match Ginny was not included with the Trio, she was only mentioned being consoled by Bill when the Irish Seeker got hurt... again, in tune with the "little sister" image... Jo could have effortlessly included her, even if only by name and not dialogue, but she didn't. Marcela From devika261 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 02:19:16 2005 From: devika261 at hotmail.com (Devika) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:19:16 -0000 Subject: Lily? In-Reply-To: <42C47023.3060705@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > I just read this quote from JKR, which I hadn't personally read before: > > Now, the - the important thing about Harry's mother - the really, really > significant thing - you're going to find out in two - in two parts. > You'll find out a lot more about her in book five, or you'll find out > something very significant about her in book five, and you'll find out > something incredibly important about her in book seven. > > I presume that this quote is the origin of the question "What is Lily's > Big Secret?" > > But, it left me wondering -- what "very significant" thing did we learn > about her in book 5? The only thing I really recall was that DD spelled > out in more detail the 'old magic' her sacrifice left in Harry. But > that's not really telling us anything *about her*. Other things, like > that she belonged to the Order and had 'thrice defied' LV, also apply to > James, and to others as well in fact. And they're not really all that > *surprising* things heh. > > Am I forgetting something, or did JKR change tack along the way? > > heather the buzzard I actually read that quote recently too, and I wondered the same thing. The only thing I can come up with that makes sense (to me, anyway) is that we found out more about the protection that she left for Harry when she sacrificed herself for him. I agree that this doesn't really tell us much about Lily herself. However, it seems like the most significant thing involving Lily that we've discovered in terms of the overall plot of the series. I think that in book 7 we'll learn more about the nature of the "ancient magic" and exactly what it means to Harry and Voldemort. Since I think we already know that the act of sacrificing her own life was what provided Lily's protection for Harry, I hope we find out that there's more to it than that. I have a feeling that the "incredibly important" thing we'll find out will have more to do with Lily's sacrifice than about her as a person, although I'm hoping JKR will tell us more about that too. --Devika, who has been a list member for 4 years, has spent the past 2 lurking, and is now eagerly awaiting HBP so that some of our speculations can be put to rest once and for all :) From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 02:09:49 2005 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: <1119988209.3784.13386.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050701020949.52200.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131774 JJ wrote: I'd like to know why the Potter's didn't go with DD as SK - after all, isn't he the only one You-Know-Who ever feared, and couldn't DD have used additional spells to further protect the secret within him? Oh, and on a side note - does Harry have a godmother? Maybe he did have one, but she was a victim to Voldemort before Harry's parents were? Astrud: Actually, the Potters disn't have that close a relationship with DD. In the scenario given at that time it would be best to turn turn to their most trusted friends as SK. And Yes, the whole lot of the Potter family had been wiped out by the dark lord. And when you say "secret within him" were you pertaining to Harry? If so, this may be difficult because Voldemort and Harry are somehow connected already. And even if Harry learns additional spells by DD or Snape to keep the dark lord from his secrets, Voldemort still amitiously create ways to retrieve those secrets. astrud From kjones at telus.net Fri Jul 1 02:54:52 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:54:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C4B07C.2010404@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131775 > > Why was a servent of LV *meeting* *Sirius* in front of J&L's house? > TK -- TigerPatronus > Chris wote: > I don't think JKR meant it to be any indication that Sirius was > once going to be the spy. My guess is Pyrites was a person that Sirius > would have confronted after the Potters' deaths who was still > lingering aroung Godric's Hollow. This probably would have replaced > Hagrid's falshback in PoA when he remembers meeting and comforting > Sirius, then retrieving the flying motorcylce to go and rescue Harry. > However, it does beg the question. Why would this storyline have > been cut simply because Peter eventually became the spy in her > writing? Who would have been the spy? I don't see Sirius as the spy, > at all, ever. This would have blown half of the themes Harry has dealt > with right out of the mix. Sirius as father-figure and brother. Sirius > as adult who can't grow up. Sirius as bad angel/negative conscience to > Harry. All of these themes would have been up in smoke. > > Just MHO, > Chris Kathy writes: I have to do it, I just have to. Can't help myself. 1. Sirius sneaked into the castle and carved up a painting with a knife looking for Harry. Is this normal behaviour. Why do people forgive and forget about it? 2. Sirius was the one who grabbed Harry and choked him in the Shrieking Shack. 3. Sirius was the one who attempted to manipulate Harry into doing something that for once he had the good sense to not want to do. He used Harry's father as a pressure point. 4. Sirius appears to be as competant a duelist as Snape, perhaps more so. Sirius is meaner than Snape and even more ready to get into a fight. Spies have got to be capable. He is diametrically opposed to Snape and yet very similar. 5. The second prophecy said that the servant had been "chained" for twelve years. To me this speaks more of Sirius than it does Peter. Peter was hiding, not incarcerated. 6. Sirius speaks of conversations of Deatheaters in Azkaban about what they wanted to do to Peter. When would he be in a position to hear about it. 7. Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius with the picture of Peter in it that Sirius recognized.Why would he bother visiting Sirius????? 8. Sirius hosed Peter into making a "confession" which was very carefully written by JKR, in my opinion to be ambiguous. Peter admitted to giving up the Potters' but Sirius was the one who set Peter up as the Secret Keeper on the basis that he would be less likely to be considered as such by Voldemort. Sirius wanted Peter dead so that these little confusions could never be straightened out. 9. Voldemort said that his most faithful servant was at Hogwarts. So was Sirius, sitting in the pumpkin patch, while Moody/Crouch made off with Harry. 10. Bellatrix apparently hit Sirius with a stunning spell. Sirius was a dangerous man, Bellatrix would surely have known that, and yet she fired a "red spell", which from other descriptions in the books, must have been to stun. I think Sirius went through the Veil by accident, and her "scream of triumph" might well have been more of an "oops". I think that the plot would be furthered even more by Harry discovering that Sirius, who appeared good, was bad, and in the end will force him to Snape, who appears bad, for assistance in the next book. Harry can not trust Dumbledor, who makes his choices for the wrong reasons. Snape has still been the only one in the books who answered all of his questions. A lot of these books seem to deal with trust. Another thing that drives me crazy is that it is constantly expressed that Sirius loved Harry, and Harry loved Sirius. They hardly had a chance to get to know each other. Harry on some level knew that he could not depend on Sirius for common sense. He needed Sirius, which is different. He took on the guilt for Sirius' death, which caused him much more pain than the actual loss of Sirius. I don't think Sirius loved Harry either. He needed Harry to try to regain some of his lost years, perhaps. He also needed to be close to Harry, if he actually was the spy. He needed to make himself important to Harry. I think that Lupin suspected him for a reason. He may still suspect him, but as he has done all his life chooses the easy road and says nothing. He does seem to be keeping an eye on him in OOTP. I don't think that Lupin had the backbone or the ambition to be the spy, but Sirius had the nerve and the skills to pull it off. IMHO Go for it, I have my head covered to protect it from flying objects. KJ From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 03:02:42 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:02:42 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131776 JLV: > It may be that Lily did have close pals, but by this time Voldemort > had > killed/incapacitated (Alice Longbottom?) them, or they had turned to > Voldemort, or they aren't important to the story so JKR never mentions > them (like Harry apparently never goes to the loo). It may be that she > was good friends with Lupin, but couldn't stand the other three... the > possibilities are endless. The prophecy was given before Harry was born. At a guess, his christening was a clandestine operation--probably, the fewer people present, the better. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 03:15:09 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:15:09 -0000 Subject: Clarification - Godparent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131777 JJ: > > I'd like to know why the Potter's didn't go with DD as SK - after > > all, isn't he the only one You-Know-Who ever feared, and couldn't DD > > have used additional spells to further protect the secret within > > him? Chris: > My guess would be that the Potters trusted their friends above all > others. James had grown up with Sirius after all, and they were like > brothers. The person anyone relies on to not betray them is their best > friend. If the Potters knew the Prophecy, they knew that Dumbledore *did not* have the power to vanquish Voldy. Dumbledore could fall, whether Voldy was afraid of him or not. IIRC, Sirius describes the arrangement as a "double bluff"--Before Voldy even considers anyone else, he has to eliminate both Dumbledore and Sirius as secret keepers. Sirus and the Potters surely thought it unlikely that he would ever get far enough down the list to find Peter. Amiable Dorsai From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 1 03:22:38 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:22:38 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > Luna: > > I have to step here on behalf of Ginny and Jo. Jo did leave clues > > regarding Ginny's personality and strength of character. > > > In COS Ron said she never shuts up. > > I agree with Phoenixgod and Hickengruendler -- this is not enough. > It's not even really that indicative of the personality she develops > in OotP, anyway. All it says is that she talks a lot, which she > never really did. Pippin: I think development is being confused with exposition. If Ginny had really changed from a shrinking wallflower to a bold and cunning wench, we might expect to see her doing it. But most of the change was in her perception of Harry and Harry's perception of her. The talks a lot clue tells us that normally she's not shy. That's enough for the reader who's paying attention and has already picked up the flashing neon sign that Ginny is the first eligible female Harry sees in the WW. That's a story-telling formula that has said "potential love interest" since story-telling began. We know she's a powerful witch because as a second year she made a singing greeting card that nobody could shut up, though we learn in GoF that that kind of spell wears out very quickly as a rule. We know she has a sense of humor because she sent that singing valentine to Harry. We know she was interested in Quidditch because she went to the QWC... I can tell you that I'd have rather gone shopping with Molly in Diagon Alley any day. We know that she's not too dainty to steal --she stole the diary from Harry, and no one ever suspected it was her. We know she can be deceptive -- look at her saying that she didn't know the diary was dangerous...balderdash! She threw it away, didn't she? They're subtle clues -- but if they were any more obvious, Harry would look stupid as well as oblivious. Our Harry's not stupid, but he does have this tendency to take people at face value. It's not the first time he's deceived himself about another person, after all, or did you think that he could only be wrong about villains? Laura: > The thing is, before OotP came out, there were very, very few people > (at least on this list) who suspected that Ginny was actually > KickAss!Girl. In fact, most Ginny defenders and Harry/Ginny > SHIPpers praised Ginny for *not* challenging Harry and being > contentious with him. They argued that Hermione was too quick > to point out when Harry was wrong. They said he needed his > life-mate to be someone who wouldn't argue with him all the time > and who would quietly support and respect him (with dignity, > of course) no matter what. Pippin: Funny, the way I remember it, anti-H/G shippers were saying Ginny was just too quiet and wimpy for Harry. And my objection to H/H was not that Hermione was too quick to point out when Harry was wrong, but that he never argued with her-- he'd lie. I didn't think that was a solid foundation for a relationship. I still don't. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 03:25:52 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:25:52 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <42C4B07C.2010404@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131779 > > Kathy writes: > I have to do it, I just have to. Can't help myself. Alla : I know I should not, I really do know that, but can't help myself either. :-) Kathy: > 1. Sirius sneaked into the castle and carved up a painting with a > knife looking for Harry. Is this normal behaviour. Why do people > forgive and forget about it? Alla: Erm.. he was not looking for Harry with a knife, he cut Fat Lady with a knife, while looking for Peter and yes, it is an understandable behaviour of someone who suffered twelve years because of certain person and was willing to find such person by any means. Kathy: > 4. Sirius appears to be as competant a duelist as Snape, perhaps > more so. Sirius is meaner than Snape and even more ready to get into a > fight. Spies have got to be capable. He is diametrically opposed to > Snape and yet very similar. Alla: Good for Sirius. Do you know how much I wanted to see a duel between him and Snape and maybe something else besides duel? :-) Kathy: > 6. Sirius speaks of conversations of Deatheaters in Azkaban about > what they wanted to do to Peter. When would he be in a position to hear > about it. Alla: I can hear A LOT of what my neigbors do while being in my appartment. I think soundproofness of Azkaban walls is even less than in my building :-) Kathy: > 7. Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius with the picture of Peter in > it that Sirius recognized.Why would he bother visiting Sirius????? Alla: Fudge did not come visit Sirius. "When he came to inspect Azkaban last year , he gave me this paper" - PoA, p.363 I am sure that Minuster's regular duties include periodic inspection of the only ( I think) Prison in WW. As to why he gave Sirius the paper... I don't know - jesture of kindness :-) To make prisoner's life a little bit less dull :-) > Kathy: > Sirius wanted Peter dead so that these little > confusions could never be straightened out. Alla: Sirius wanted Peter dead because he believes him to be responsible for Potters deaths, no? Kathy: > 9. Voldemort said that his most faithful servant was at Hogwarts. > So was Sirius, sitting in the pumpkin patch, while Moody/Crouch made off > with Harry. Alla: There were SO many people in Hogwarts, whom we can offer as Voldie's spy. I suggest Minerva Mcgonagall. :-) Kathy: > Another thing that drives me crazy is that it is constantly > expressed that Sirius loved Harry, and Harry loved Sirius. They hardly > had a chance to get to know each other. Alla: I think there is such thing as instant affection for each other. Kathy: I don't think Sirius > loved Harry either. He needed Harry to try to regain some of his lost > years, perhaps. He also needed to be close to Harry, if he actually was > the spy. He needed to make himself important to Harry. Alla: Sirius escaped to protect Harry, Sirius left his haven the moment he knew Harry needed him in GoF. He ate rats to be close to Harry. He died for Harry. To me those are signs of love. Kathy: > Go for it, I have my head covered to protect it from flying objects. > Alla takes flying object... :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 03:43:57 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:43:57 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131780 I couldn't find whether or not this had been discussed but did anyone else notice an abrupt change in Hermione's presents to Harry? Book 1: Chocolate Frogs (yummy - and he collects the cards) Book 2: Luxury Eagle Feather Quill (practical, but with a pleasing appearance) Book 3: Birthday - Broomstick Servicing Kit (woah!), Christmas - don't find out (fiasco with a Firebolt) Book 4: Birthday - A cake (perfect for our starving Harry) Christmas - Quidditch Teams of Britian and Ireland (a book but at least its about Quidditch) Book 5: Birthday - Honeydukes Chocolates and here is the drumroll.... Christmas is, of course, the ever-so-annoying homework planner. It seems to me as though this is the perfect kind of present someone *thought* Hermione would give. It is very practical and has to do with school, but it doesn't match up with her previous gifts. Those gifts were all personal and enjoyable on some level, but a nagging homework planner? It doesn't fit.... I have seen the stuff on Hermione being controlled by the imperious curse, but I just don't want to buy it. It seems to...easy. Can anyone offer an alternate explanation? Rosered. From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 03:54:24 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:54:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00e401c57df0$92e6f600$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131781 Alla: Sirius escaped to protect Harry, Sirius left his haven the moment he knew Harry needed him in GoF. He ate rats to be close to Harry. He died for Harry. To me those are signs of love. Sherry now: I know I will sound like a broken record, because i say this every time, but i just want to add to Alla's last comment. JKR has stated that a person's animagus form is a reflection of his/her personality. Sirius' form is a dog. I'm sorry to say this again, but a dog is incapable of disloyalty to its pack, especially its pack leader. There is no way Sirius would have betrayed James. He would have died rather than do so. That may not be a well stated response, but it is based on everything I know about dogs, which is much more than just reading a few books or having a pet now and then. i have trusted my life to dogs for 30 years, and I have had bonds with them in some ways closer to bonds with people. After all, my guide dog is with me at all times. There is nothing that can ever convince me Sirius, of anyone in the Potter world, would ever betray James and then Harry. If he had been any other animal, i might be able to consider it remotely, but if the dog animagus came from inside him, a reflection of who he is, Sirius would not be able to betray James. Sherry From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 1 03:55:01 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:55:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C4BE95.8000506@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131782 Pippin: >If Ginny had really changed from a shrinking wallflower to a bold and >cunning wench, we might expect to see her doing it. But most of >the change was in her perception of Harry and Harry's perception >of her. The talks a lot clue tells us that normally she's not >shy. > >We know she's a powerful witch because as a second year >she made a singing greeting card that nobody could shut up, >though we learn in GoF that that kind of spell wears out >very quickly as a rule. We know she has a sense of humor >because she sent that singing valentine to Harry. We know >she was interested in Quidditch because she went to the QWC... >I can tell you that I'd have rather gone >shopping with Molly in Diagon Alley any day. > >We know that she's not too dainty to steal --she stole >the diary from Harry, and no one ever suspected it was her. >We know she can be deceptive -- look at her saying that >she didn't know the diary was dangerous...balderdash! >She threw it away, didn't she? > heather now: I agree with Pippin in this case. Ginny was definitely in the background in the first few books, but that's because she was... well, in the background! There were a few hints but nothing obvious, because she was in the background. She was the little sister, who had her own personality and strengths and weaknesses, but would just be seen as 'the little sister' until she came into her own a couple years later. By OoTP, she has come out from the shadow of her brothers and is her own self. Her mischievous side, always present but probably generally kept under 'control', has now emerged and blossomed. Just because we weren't there to see it all happen doesn't make it less legitimate. I've enjoyed her behind-the-scenes development, and was never surprised by it, really. Something I haven't seen yet brought to this discussion, though, is the fact that for her whole first year she was basically possessed by Voldemort. The boys do notice that she's acting 'strange', but don't really pursue the matter. Her life this whole year is kidnapped by this secret she is carrying, this guilt over what's she's doing, this obsession over continuing it (and then the guilt over the obsessions)... it's almost like an addiction. The way she flings it away in anger, then later steals it back in desperation, smacks of addiction. All this is to say, she was *not herself* for that whole year. Any 'character development' is shunned to the side because of forces beyond her control. Her first year at Hogwarts (when she's most likely to be more timid than usual anyway) is a 'lost year'. The following year (PoA) probably had her, at least at first, still recuperating from that experience. Then she sets out to make friends and lead a normal student's life, which she was certainly NOT doing the previous year, because she was possessed by Tom Riddle and her diary addiction. She's off making her own life, she's not interacting with the main story characters much. So the next year she starts to be seen a bit more. She has fully recovered from the diary, she has grown into a teenager (age 13 now), and her latent mischievous and brash and bold tendencies are starting to flower. I see this as perfectly normal timing, considering her first year was totally lost, and so her 2nd year was like most students' first year, their time of 'finding themselves'. Not until her 3rd year does she start to really SHOW this self. Anyway, that's my bit on the matter. :) heather the buzzard From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 1 04:05:15 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:05:15 -0000 Subject: Harry and Dumbledore in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maryblue67" wrote: > > Therefore, I do not think that Fortescue's statement is based on a recent conversation with > neither Snape nor anyone else, but a much longer affair. > > Maryblue67, who was fascinated with the shows of affection from Dumbledore Fair enough. That gives us an opportunity to take the conversation in a different direction. What do you think will be the nature of Harry and DD's relationship in HBP? I'm not talking so much whether it will be student/teacher, etc. but rather the emotional tone of the relationship. Loving, stormy, distant, etc. I would certainly be very, very disappointed indeed in HBP if we don't see some significant change and development here, as well as between Harry and Lupin. If after the the dramatic events and revelations of OOTP, all the relationships just go on like they were going it would be ... silly. Myself, I just don't know about Harry and DD. Doubtless they will be working together, but the tone? I just don't know. DD certainly owes Harry some major explanations and -- if JKR wants to sell the image of his goodness to some of us -- expressions of remorse over the pain his decisions have inflicted on Harry, whether he had a choice in the matter or not. Harry has a great deal to be angry about, but his anger seems aimed mainly at Snape at the moment. As I've said before, I think it would be disappointing (and poor writing) if Harry just dusted himself off, said "oh it's all right about the Dursleys/Snape/Sirius/whatever, I understand" and immediately became the devoted pupil of DD again. However, disappointing and poorly written as it would be, it wouldn't surprise me if he did something very much along those lines. In any case, we will know in a couple of weeks. In the mean time, how do you expect this relationship to play out? Lupinlore From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 04:05:40 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:05:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: <42C4BE95.8000506@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00e601c57df2$2682ef80$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131785 Pippin: >If Ginny had really changed from a shrinking wallflower to a bold and >cunning wench, we might expect to see her doing it. But most of >the change was in her perception of Harry and Harry's perception >of her. The talks a lot clue tells us that normally she's not >shy. > Sherry now: I thought Ginny was a girl with spirit and liked her a lot from the moment she is described as chasing the train till it picks up speed, right at the beginning of SS/PS. I wouldn't have run after the train. I *was* shy and would have stood there quietly with my mother, too timid to do something so natural and unrestrained as to chase after the train. Maybe, that's part of why Ginny's OOTP person didn't surprise me at all. It seemed to fit with that high spirited girl. Sherry From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 04:31:48 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:31:48 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > I couldn't find whether or not this had been discussed but did > anyone else notice an abrupt change in Hermione's presents to > Harry? > > Book 1: Chocolate Frogs (yummy - and he collects the cards) > Book 2: Luxury Eagle Feather Quill (practical, but with a pleasing > appearance) > Book 3: Birthday - Broomstick Servicing Kit (woah!), Christmas - > don't find out (fiasco with a Firebolt) > Book 4: Birthday - A cake (perfect for our starving Harry) > Christmas - Quidditch Teams of Britian and Ireland (a book but at > least its about Quidditch) > Book 5: Birthday - Honeydukes Chocolates > > and here is the drumroll.... > > Christmas is, of course, the ever-so-annoying homework planner. > > > It seems to me as though this is the perfect kind of present someone > *thought* Hermione would give. It is very practical and has to do > with school, but it doesn't match up with her previous gifts. Those > gifts were all personal and enjoyable on some level, but a nagging > homework planner? It doesn't fit.... > > I have seen the stuff on Hermione being controlled by the imperious > curse, but I just don't want to buy it. It seems to...easy. Can > anyone offer an alternate explanation? **Marcela: Theories follow. 1) Hermione likes Harry. Hermione had doubts -toward the end of GoF- about the nature of her feelings for Harry (Viktor's chat before they boarded the train, and then her kiss on the cheek to Harry). Then in the post-wet-kiss scene in OoTP, she finally realized that she wasn't comfortable with Harry kissing Cho, she stopped being pro- active to match them up and switched to 'explaining' mode, which didn't help Harry much, to be honest, as she never suggested to him what to do next but what he should have done. So, what does a girl give to her two best friends for Christmas? Especially when she harbours feelings for one of them (whom is already into another r'ship) and the other one is harbouring feelings for her? She gives them the exact same present, no preferences and feelings revealed. Jo made sure to let us know this, when Ron made the disappointed comment about her gift. Did Harry notice the change? Yes, because he had always liked her gifts, but this time he was tempted to throw it to the fire. 2) Hermione likes Ron. We don't know if Hermione has given Ron better gifts than Harry's. So, there is no way we can compare, but I'm sure that if Jo would be hinting at a R/Hr r'ship, she could have added this in the books (two or three more words in a sentence doesn't take much space, after all). What I find difficult to explain is that if she really liked Ron, why wouldn't she give him some other present, a bit more 'personal' perhaps? in OoTP, just when Ron started showing his interest in her? Harry was already involved with Cho, so what was stopping her from showing a bit more preference for Ron in the gift department? Jo was asked about presents in an interview, "...Q: Ron and Hermione give Harry gifts... does he ever give them birthday presents? JKR: Yes, Harry does buy presents back! But I've never focused on their birthdays yet --there hasn't been room! ..." America Online chat transcript, AOL.com, 19 October 2000. So what was significant about the notebooks in OoTP, the longest book of the series? That they were not personal and were identical to both boys, as opposed to the choice of the boy's presents for her. Marcela From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 04:44:37 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:44:37 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > I couldn't find whether or not this had been discussed but did > anyone else notice an abrupt change in Hermione's presents to > Harry? (snip) > I have seen the stuff on Hermione being controlled by the imperious curse, but I just don't want to buy it. It seems to...easy. Can anyone offer an alternate explanation? Tonks: I think that it just shows how obsessed Hermione is with the exams coming up. And she is concerned that Ron and Harry are not organized enough. She is worried that they will not pass. She is worried about getting high marks herself. She is not been rational because she is a very intelligent girl and we all know that she will do fine. We know that Ron and Harry will do fine too, but she doesn't. So she is giving them something that she thinks will help them at a very critical time in their life. It also sends a subconscious message that we have to be very serious now. We could do fun things in the past and later, but not now. Tonks_op From kjones at telus.net Fri Jul 1 04:45:22 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:45:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C4CA62.9020004@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131788 dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > > Kathy writes: > > I have to do it, I just have to. Can't help myself. > > Alla : > > I know I should not, I really do know that, but can't help myself > either. :-) > Alla: > > Erm.. he was not looking for Harry with a knife, he cut Fat Lady > with a knife, while looking for Peter and yes, it is an > understandable behaviour of someone who suffered twelve years > because of certain person and was willing to find such person by any > means. Kathy: Maybe, but you sure give him more leeway than poor, old, down-trodden Snape. > Alla: > > Good for Sirius. Do you know how much I wanted to see a duel between > him and Snape and maybe something else besides duel? :-) Kathy: But you are ignoring my point. Who else besides Sirius is portrayed as the same kind of dangerous, violent, competant, veteran? JKR made him that way for a reason or he would look more like Lupin. > > Alla: > > I can hear A LOT of what my neigbors do while being in my > appartment. I think soundproofness of Azkaban walls is even less > than in my building :-) Kathy: But there is nothing in canon to support that. Azkaban could have walls 2 feet thick for all we know. > Alla: > > Fudge did not come visit Sirius. "When he came to inspect Azkaban > last year , he gave me this paper" - PoA, p.363 > > I am sure that Minuster's regular duties include periodic inspection > of the only ( I think) Prison in WW. As to why he gave Sirius the > paper... I don't know - jesture of kindness :-) To make prisoner's > life a little bit less dull :-) Kathy: I have a hard time imagining Fudge caring if a prisoner's life was dull. But if Fudge is secretly supporting Voldemort, it would explain a lot. I know, I know, nothing in canon to support that either. I like the fact that Fudge was nicer to Sirius than to Harry. > > Alla: > > Sirius wanted Peter dead because he believes him to be responsible > for Potters deaths, no? Kathy: Maybe. But do you not think that the entire scene in the shack was ambiguous? > Alla: > > There were SO many people in Hogwarts, whom we can offer as Voldie's > spy. > > I suggest Minerva Mcgonagall. :-) Kathy: Possibly. I don't mind ESE Minerva. I just think more things point to Sirius. That was an exceptionally interesting post on Minerva a while back, though. > Alla: > > I think there is such thing as instant affection for each other. Kathy: I've never suffered from it, nor would I if on one page the person was choking me, and dragging my best friend around, and a few pages later, suggesting that I live with him. I don't think you would either. > Alla: > > Sirius escaped to protect Harry, Sirius left his haven the moment he > knew Harry needed him in GoF. He ate rats to be close to Harry. > He died for Harry. To me those are signs of love. Kathy: Sirius escaped for the sole purpose of murdering Peter. He ate rats to stay out of Azkaban. When you are a dog, rats are probably not bad. He didn't die for Harry, he was dying of boredom and couldn't wait to get a little action. He had no common sense at all. > Alla takes flying object... :-) Kathy crawls under computer desk. :-) KJ From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 05:15:12 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 05:15:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and Dumbledore in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: What do you think will be the nature of Harry and DD's relationship in HBP? I'm not talking so much whether it will be student/teacher, etc. but rather the emotional tone of the relationship. Loving, stormy, distant, etc. > Tonks: I think that Harry will mature. And in the course of this he and DD will be closer than in OOP, about like in GOF, but with a deeper understanding. I don't think that Harry will be angry for more than maybe a quarter of the book. Harry will become DD's apprentice. DD will teach Harry things that no one else can. This will help Harry to be a great wizard and able to go on by himself. Harry will feel a great affection for DD by this time. I think that Harry will also form a closer bond with Lupin. And since we all think that DD will be killed; I also fear for Lupin. Everyone Harry cares for will be taken from him, except maybe Hermione and Ron. (I say this because I see Hermione and Ron as part of Harry in a symbolic way. The Superego and Id to Harry's Ego.) Tonks_op From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 06:18:52 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:18:52 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131790 > Pippin: > I think development is being confused with exposition. If Ginny > had really changed from a shrinking wallflower to a bold and > cunning wench, we might expect to see her doing it. But most of > the change was in her perception of Harry and Harry's perception > of her. The talks a lot clue tells us that normally she's not > shy. Which is it? Did she experience a transfromation in personality like some people argue all teenagers go through? OR was she always this way and only her getting over Harry allowed her full personality to come out around them? Either way, it was handled badly. There are ways to lay out real clues that just didn't happen. Regardless of whether the transformation was supposed to be an actual change, or a change in perception, it needed to happen in a way that is less than a giant ton of bricks landing on our heads. While that might happen in real life, in books there needs to be foreshadowing--and a lot of it when the change is as big a one as Ginny goes through. > We know she's a powerful witch because as a second year > she made a singing greeting card that nobody could shut up, > though we learn in GoF that that kind of spell wears out > very quickly as a rule. Then her supposedly being very powerful makes even less sense. In book two, by Valentines Day, the diary had already been drinking her life force for months. Shouldn't she have been even weaker than normal. And we don't know for a fact that the greeting card was even hers, do we? We know she has a sense of humor > because she sent that singing valentine to Harry. We know > she was interested in Quidditch because she went to the QWC... Didn't she fall asleep there instead of staying up talking about the game with the others. Hardly the indication of someone who is apparently as in love with the game as she is only a year later. > We know that she's not too dainty to steal --she stole > the diary from Harry, and no one ever suspected it was her. > We know she can be deceptive -- look at her saying that > she didn't know the diary was dangerous...balderdash! > She threw it away, didn't she? I read the scene almost like she was a junky on a fix. She *needed* the diary back. That sort of addiction would lead people to do all sorts of things that might be outside their normal character. I don't think that her willingness to steal is supposed to be anything other than an action born of sheer desperation and not part of a mischevious nature. > They're subtle clues -- but if they were any more obvious, That seems like a dig at everyone who disagrees with you. I don't think the clues are 'obvious' at all. Honestly, only part of my problem is with the How of writing Ginny. Part of it is also that I find her character deeply, deeply, obnoxious. I find her unlikeable and unsympathetic. She just annoys me on a number of different levels both character and literary. But the important part of this thread is now no one is talking about Snape:) phoenixgod2000 From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 06:47:25 2005 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: We Like Ginny! (was Re: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!!) In-Reply-To: <1120152444.1809.11092.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050701064725.4512.qmail@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131791 JJ wrote: I, too, saw Ginny's involvement increase through the books as her character grew up and found her niche at school where she just wasn't "mollycoddled" as the baby and only girl of the family. Hopefully, after her involvement in the DA and the battle at the end of OOTP, the rest of Ginny's family will recognize that "little Ginny" has grown up! astrud: I quite agree! Ginny's character is starting to be powerful. She's progressing in her skills and has strong leadership qualities. Indeed, bigger roles are in store for her in the next books! Lets hear in for Ginny! astrud From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 1 07:26:20 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 03:26:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map Message-ID: <1ea.3fd6fbe8.2ff64a1c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131792 In a message dated 6/30/2005 8:18:06 AM Central Standard Time, mich at ntl.sympatico.ca writes: Hi all. Speaking of the Marauders Map I am wondering, was it used in OotP? Because I seem to remember at the end of GoF Harry not getting it back from the fake Moody but I don't really remember. I think I will have to go through and read the books again. Mich Verrier Yes Harry had the Marauder's map in OOTP. He used it after one of the DA meeting to make sure that the halls were clear so that the student could get back to their dorms. He also used it when he, Hermione and Ron snuck down to visit Hagrid right after he had arrived back at the school from visiting giants. And you are correct there was no mention made of him actually getting it back. JKR said in an interview that she knew she should have written a scene of him swiping it back from fake!Moody's office. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Jul 1 07:41:28 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:41:28 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > All this talk about Ginny makes me ask: In the Forbidden Forest > when the sextet converges and discusses flying to London, Ginny talks > about the thestrals as if she prefectly knew about them. Did Hagrid > show them to the fourth years too eventhough he said he was keeping > them for fifth years only? > Even Luna surprises me with her knowledge but then it's Luna. How > come ginny knows so much thestrals? > Bye > Adi Hickengruendler: That I find pretty believable. Hagrid never really cared about the curriculum (showing Hippogriffs to third years, etc.). He always shows all kids what he thinks to be interesting. Hermione even mentioned, that Grubbly-Plank probably hadn't shown them the Thestrals until their 7th year. herefore I can easily see Hagrid showing the Thestrals to all classes, including Ginny's. Hickengruendler From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 08:07:59 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:07:59 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <42C4B07C.2010404@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131794 Kathryn Jones wrote: > Another thing that drives me crazy is that it is constantly > expressed that Sirius loved Harry, and Harry loved Sirius. They hardly > had a chance to get to know each other. Ginger: I'm snipping a lot out of your post to touch on this one little issue. It has been questioned often how the two could "love" each other after knowing each other for less than an hour (my guess-feel free to correct me) in the Shack. Not to mention that they had a few distractions which limited the bonding to the chat in the tunnel. Let's look at it first from Sirius' side. He knew Harry well when Harry was a baby. He was appointed Godfather. The Potters went into hiding "barely a week" week before their deaths, (according to Fudge, PoA. US paperback p.205) so Sirius would have had plenty of time to get to know baby Harry. True, this isn't the same as knowing 11-year-old Harry, but as a Godmother, I know the bond that one forms with a baby, especially one to whose parents you are close friends. The added responsibility and/or honour of the title heightens the bond. After James and Lily died, he had 12 long years to think about Harry. Memories of baby Harry. The knowledge that he had a position, an obligation, granted to him by his best friend to protect the child. Worry about LV's followers coming after Harry while he, Sirius, was unable to defend him. These things must have been in his mind. The roots of the love were there for Sirius. Later, when he escaped, he got "snapshot glimpses" of Harry's life. Watching him on Privet Drive and at Hogwarts would have given him some idea of what Harry was like. Add these to the obligation and the memories, and I do think we have love. Not as familiar of a love that would have formed had they not been seperated, but love nonetheless. Remembering my Godson as a baby, I know if we had been seperated for 12 years, I'd still have the same love for him, even if I didn't know the current person that he would be. >From Harry's side, it's less clear. He had those first 16 months, but how many of us remember that age? When we first meet Harry in the second chapter of PS/SS, he is being rudely awakened from a dream about a flying motorcycle. Since Hagrid brought Harry to the Dursleys on it in the first chapter, we assume the dream is about that incident. But it was night. Harry fell asleep over Bristol. He hadn't had a pleasant evening before that. Even if he didn't realize at the time that his parents were dead, he would still have been upset by the house being reduced to rubble, and the noise that would have accompanied it. I'm not sure if the placement of the scar caused him pain or not, but I'd bet a knut that it wasn't uneventful. Was this dream a memory of a single incident or of the motorcycle from happier times? Harry also mentions in the second chapter that he had "dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away" from the Dursleys. Were these subconscious memories of Sirius? His flying motorcycle? His almost-familial connection? Was this JKR foreshadowing? Whether or not it was, Harry had, deep inside him, the memories of Sirius and the hope that someone who cared for him would take him away from the Dursleys. Then he finds out that his deepest hope is true, and that it is someone his parents loved and trusted. Again, it's not the familiar love that would have been built over the years had they not been seperated, but it is a love. On both sides, there are a lot of missing pieces, but both also realize that this is not the beginning of their special relationship, but a continuation of a love that once was, many years ago. They are not entering a relationship, but rebuilding one. Ginger, who thinks there are many types of love, and this is one of them. Oh, yes, the usual JMO stuff. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 09:40:46 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:40:46 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <42C4B07C.2010404@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131795 Another Kathy joins in to create an attribution nightmare... I'll add in my yahoo ID as well as my K to try and make this easier The first Kathy wrote: >>2. Sirius was the one who grabbed Harry and choked him in the Shrieking Shack.<< KathyK, zanelupin: It may only be my copy of PoA, but I seem to recall Harry jumping on top of Sirius and Sirius grabbing his throat to fight him off. Now, I will grant that we don't know he'd have stopped himself, so fixated he was at that point on killing Peter, but I would also ask that you grant we don't know he wouldn't have stopped. Hermione stepped in to resolve the issue. I think he would have realized what he was doing. Then again, I've apparently been turning into a Sirius Apologist in my lurking. :-) Kathy: >>3. Sirius was the one who attempted to manipulate Harry into doing something that for once he had the good sense to not want to do. He used Harry's father as a pressure point.<< KathyK, zanelupin: Sirius tried to convince Harry it would be fine for him to visit Harry in Hogsmeade. Harry, quite reasonably and with concern for his godfather's safety, argued against it. Sirius came to the realization that Harry was not exactly like his father and handled it badly, throwing it in Harry's face. When Harry tried to continue the conversation, Sirius cut him off and departed. Yes, he clearly sent the message he was disappointed and wanted Harry to feel badly for it. But no, he did not try and manipulate Harry into going along with his idea using James. Frankly, Sirius did not need Harry's consent or help in running off to Hogsmeade, even to meet Harry. He could have just shown up for Harry's weekend. I think that would have been worse than merely trying to convince Harry it could be done. I know I'm not saying this right, but there is little coherence left in me at 5am. Kathy: >>5. The second prophecy said that the servant had been "chained" for twelve years. To me this speaks more of Sirius than it does Peter. Peter was hiding, not incarcerated.<< KathyK, zanelupin: I fail to see the difference. What kept Peter in hiding for all those years as a rat if not for fear of retalliation by Death Eaters or a lot of questions from the Ministry about his surviving the fearsome Sirius Black in the Alleyway? Living as a rat for years comes pretty close to incarceration in my book. But maybe Peter likes being a pet. Why become one in the first, place, though? Perhaps he decided he had nothing else going for him so he may as well just become Scabbers. :-) Trelawney's prophecy also says, "the servant will break free." At this point Sirius has been free for months while Peter is still hiding out as a rat, now from the general WW and Sirius. Kathy: >>6. Sirius speaks of conversations of Deatheaters in Azkaban about what they wanted to do to Peter. When would he be in a position to hear about it.<< KathyK, zanelupin: I can't help but be picky, I apologize. What Sirius says is that he hears them *screaming* in their sleep. Shouting and screaming are a bit easier to hear through walls, I believe. Kathy: 8. Sirius hosed Peter into making a "confession" which was very carefully written by JKR, in my opinion to be ambiguous. Peter admitted to giving up the Potters' but Sirius was the one who set Peter up as the Secret Keeper on the basis that he would be less likely to be considered as such by Voldemort. Sirius wanted Peter dead so that these little confusions could never be straightened out. KathyK, zanelupin: So Peter and Sirius were in it together? Or was Sirius even more quietly LV's spy, just biding his time to do something truly heinous? He manipulated the entire situation so that no one would believe he'd been the one to betray the Potters and he'd continue to be free. If this is the case, he made a very idiotic blunder in allowing Peter to get the better of him and then not even attempting to defend his innocence once captured. He could have made a good case, I believe. Then he wouldn't have had to sit in Azkaban for *twelve years* before escaping to hunt Peter down. As far as the SK switch, based on what we know about the Fidelius Charm--and what I suspect, I agree it makes little sense for Sirius to suggest anyone else be Secret-Keeper. As Phyllis said it so much better than I could back in December 2003, I will quote her here: Phyllis From Message 87113: "I think Sirius switched with Peter in the hopes that both he (Sirius)and the Potters would survive. Sirius didn't suspect that Peter was Voldemort's spy, and he believed Peter to be the last person Voldemort would identify as the Potters' secret-keeper. So by switching to Peter, Sirius was trying to avoid being killed himself while still protecting the secrecy of the Potters' whereabouts." Back to KathyK, zanelupin: Not only, IMO, would this switch, had Peter not been the traitor, have solved the issue of possibly saving both the Potters and Sirius, but there was also a good possibility Peter would survive this plan as well since I don't think, even if LV had gone after Sirius, Sirius would have given Peter up because that would have meant betraying James. And even if Sirius did not escape LV in his pursuit of baby Harry, it still allows for the possibility that it could have been quite a while before their attention turned to Peter for information. Kathy: 10. Bellatrix apparently hit Sirius with a stunning spell. Sirius was a dangerous man, Bellatrix would surely have known that, and yet she fired a "red spell", which from other descriptions in the books, must have been to stun. I think Sirius went through the Veil by accident, and her "scream of triumph" might well have been more of an "oops". KathyK, zanelupin: Unless it wasn't Bellatrix at all whose shot pushed Sirius through the archway. Sorry, can't help myself. And what's wrong with a stunner hitting Sirius? Maybe Bella wanted to bring back a trophy, but had to settle for his death instead. Kathy: I think that Lupin suspected him for a reason. He may still suspect him, but as he has done all his life chooses the easy road and says nothing. He does seem to be keeping an eye on him in OOTP. KathyK, zanelupin: I thought when Lupin asks Sirius to forgive him for thinking he was the spy it was because Lupin had thought for twelve years that Sirius was, in fact, the spy. You know, after the Potters bought it. However, there is lots of room for speculation about who suspected whom at that time. Also, I think Lupin was keeping an eye on Sirius because Sirius was behaving a bit less calmly and rationally than Lupin would like his friend to be. He was concerned, I believe, with what effects Sirius' behaviour could have on himself and on the Order, should Sirius lose complete control. Oh, and he may have just been waiting and watching, orchestrating his friend's demise. ;-) KathyK From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 11:23:05 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050701112306.83799.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131796 --- rosered2318 wrote: > Christmas is, of course, the ever-so-annoying homework planner. > > It seems to me as though this is the perfect kind of present > someone > *thought* Hermione would give. It is very practical and has to do > with school, but it doesn't match up with her previous gifts. > Those > gifts were all personal and enjoyable on some level, but a nagging > homework planner? It doesn't fit.... > > I have seen the stuff on Hermione being controlled by the imperious > curse, but I just don't want to buy it. It seems to...easy. Can > anyone offer an alternate explanation? Yes, she was finally getting sick and tired of being the all-purpose homework machine for the Trio. This Christmas present reflects the fact that the OWLS are less than six months away and that Hermione is not going to be helping them fill in their tests and that they'd better get cracking. Personally I think the present was WAY overdue and it might be a sign that Hermione is finally feeling secure enough to risk alienating the boys by stepping out of her self-assumed role of being the "smart one" of the group. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 12:22:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:22:30 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius get the Grimmauld Place? Common Law Ref. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131797 > Emma: > I'm sure there are lots of possible explanations for the above > ? I like a_svirn's idea of Mr and Mrs Black having an incestuous > marriage ? but it seems to me that the easiest is that the house > actually was `the house of [Mrs Black's] fathers' rather than Mr > Black's, and that Mr Black did indeed only live there for the time > being. > a_svirn: But my other explanation ? that Mr and Mrs Black are first cousins ? does also fit the "entail theory". If Mrs. Black father had no male heirs, the heir apparent to his estate could have been his nephew (or other male relative on the Black side for that matter). In which case he could have married his daughter off to the heir apparent ? a well known stratagem to provide for a daughter (e.g. Victoria Sackville- West's marriage to her cousin Lionel or, since you mentioned Austen ? the proposed match between Elisabeth and Mr. Collins). > The following is pure speculation, and based almost entirely on too > much reading of Jane Austen and George Eliot, but it also strikes me > as implausible that such a grand family as the Blacks seem to be > should have a house in a *street* with a *number* as their main > seat. Betcha there's a country estate somewhere, or there was, > and Number 12 Grimmauld Place was just their house in town, brought > to the marriage by Mrs Black. a_svirn: But Jane Austen never wrote about "grand" families. Her world is a world of country squires the only titled gentleman in the novels being a paltry baronet. However, the rich Mr. Darcy does own a house in town on top of Pemberly. Quite possibly with a number attached to it. From labmystc at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 12:31:47 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:31:47 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <42C4B07C.2010404@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131798 Kathy writes: I have to do it, I just have to. Can't help myself. > 1. Sirius sneaked into the castle and carved up a painting with a > knife looking for Harry. Is this normal behaviour. Why do people > forgive and forget about it? Um, I think Sirius was going after Peterscabbers at the time. Didn't have a wand, but wanted to kill nonetheless. Frustrated at being locked up in prison for crime not committed. Not allowed entry by fat opera singing portrait. Hmmm. I'd be a *little* aggravated myself and would take out that aggravation on an annoying portrait. > 2. Sirius was the one who grabbed Harry and choked him in the > Shrieking Shack. Sirius had a thirteen year old boy jump on him and try to kill him with his bare hands. Sirius had been weakened from his stay in Azkaban. Without strength to simply throw him off, coupled with the idea at being thwarted in his quest to kill Peter, grabbing Harry around the neck seemed a likely defense measure. Act first, explain I'm your godfather, I love you, be more like your father later. > 3. Sirius was the one who attempted to manipulate Harry into doing > something that for once he had the good sense to not want to do. > He used Harry's father as a pressure point. We've went over and over this. Sirius wanted the fun times he had with James back. He never got to enjoy his early adulthood, so he tried to live it vicariously through Harry. Not trying to kill or maim him, just trying to get a little o' that James magic back. > 4. Sirius appears to be as competant a duelist as Snape, perhaps > more so. Sirius is meaner than Snape and even more ready to get > into a fight. Spies have got to be capable. He is diametrically > opposed to Snape and yet very similar. So he has a mean streak, and can fight. This a spy doth make him? Hmmm. I'm a black belt, have an above average IQ, and our current U.S. administration disturbs me on a deep level. I must be a KGB agent. Oh wait, no I'm not! :-) Does anyone else in here wish Harry would have let Sirius attack Snape? I mean, just a little? > 5. The second prophecy said that the servant had been "chained" > for twelve years. To me this speaks more of Sirius than it does > Peter. Peter was hiding, not incarcerated. Prophecies are vague, and metaphorical. "Chained" being a metaphor for: I'm stuck in rat form because I'm scared to death that everyone blames me for Voldemort's fall. They're going to kill me if they find out I lived after all. Oh yeah, and I betrayed my bestest friends in the world, and the one that went to prison is a very accomplished wizard who could annihilate me with a flick of his wand!" > 6. Sirius speaks of conversations of Deatheaters in Azkaban about > what they wanted to do to Peter. When would he be in a position to > hear about it. Bellatrix seems kind of mad, and screams a lot. I think the actual reference from Sirius had screaming in it. He could have heard this, couldn't he? > 7. Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius with the picture of Peter > in it that Sirius recognized.Why would he bother visiting > Sirius????? I don't think he was visiting Sirius, but probably had business at Azkaban, and happened to pass by Sirius' cell. He's had a hard time, been a model prisoner, why not let him have a paper? Plus, everything we know about Fudge shows him to be incompetent. Probably didn't think anything about a little kindness to an accused psychopath. Got rid of 8, won't even argue about JKR's *ambiguous* confession from Peter. > > 9. Voldemort said that his most faithful servant was at Hogwarts. > So was Sirius, sitting in the pumpkin patch, while Moody/Crouch > made off with Harry. Hmmm. Dumbledore, McGonagall, BARTY/MOODY, SNAPE, the students? Could anyone of these be the spy? How about any of the spectators in the stands for the tournament? > > 10. Bellatrix apparently hit Sirius with a stunning spell. > Sirius was a dangerous man, Bellatrix would surely have known that, > and yet she fired a "red spell", which from other descriptions in > the books, must have been to stun. I think Sirius went through the > Veil by accident, and her "scream of triumph" might well have been > more of an "oops". They were dueling, and she could have been throwing any combination of spells to get him off his guard. Her goal that night wasn't to kill the Order members, but to retrieve the prophecy. IF she wanted to kill for the fun of it, she would have killed Neville to convince Harry to hand over the prophecy instead of merely torturing him with the Crucio spell. In her duel with Sirius, I'm sure she was just trying to get away from him. Her scream of triumph was just that triumph. She defeated Sirius after all. argument about Snape becoming mentor. Blah! > Another thing that drives me crazy is that it is constantly > expressed that Sirius loved Harry, and Harry loved Sirius. They > hardly had a chance to get to know each other. Harry finds out the one friend of his parents, his godfather, is still alive. This couldn't lead to instant affection? If we use the argument that they didn't know each other, we could say the same thing about Lily and James. Harry was a little baby, and didn't know his parents either. Should he not love them? > I think that Lupin suspected him for a reason. He may still > suspect him, but as he has done all his life chooses the easy road > and says nothing. He does seem to be keeping an eye on him in > OOTP. I don't think that Lupin had the backbone or the ambition to > be the spy, but Sirius had the nerve and the skills to pull it off. Yes, Lupin suspected him. Remember, Lupin had no idea that Sirius had switched to Peter as secretkeeper. He's keeping an eye on him because he sees some of Sirius' old behavior, i.e. recklessness, creeping back in, and he worries he may do something rash. And I repeat, just because he had the skills doesn't make him the spy. > Go for it, I have my head covered to protect it from flying objects. **Wingardium Leviosa** Kathy's house lifts into the air, and flies at her ala Wicked Witch of the East. :-) Chris From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 12:38:00 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:38:00 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <42C4CA62.9020004@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131799 > > Alla: > > > > Erm.. he was not looking for Harry with a knife, he cut Fat Lady > > with a knife, while looking for Peter and yes, it is an > > understandable behaviour of someone who suffered twelve years > > because of certain person and was willing to find such person by any > > means. > > Kathy: > Maybe, but you sure give him more leeway than poor, old, down- trodden > Snape. Alla: You mean I think that someone who spent twelve years in prison under horrible conditions with Dementors sucking away every happy thought from him has more reason to be irrational ( right after he escaped if I may) than someone who spent those twelve years in the safety of Hogwarts, under protection of Dumbledore? Absolutely, I do think so. > Kathy: > But you are ignoring my point. Who else besides Sirius is portrayed > as the same kind of dangerous, violent, competant, veteran? JKR made > him that way for a reason or he would look more like Lupin. Alla: Now I don't understand. Are you saying Sirius is more likely to be a Voldemort spy than Snape? Erm... I actually never accused Snape of being Voldie spy now. Well, no scratch that - I had my doubts when Harry felt worse after Occlumency, but that was just a tiny doubt, honestly. :-) So, if you think that Snape can be Voldie spy now, please ellaborate :-) > > Alla earlier: > > > > I think there is such thing as instant affection for each other. > > Kathy: > > I've never suffered from it, nor would I if on one page the person > was choking me, and dragging my best friend around, and a few pages > later, suggesting that I live with him. I don't think you would either. Alla: Let me refer you to Guinger excellent reply 131794. > Kathy: He didn't die for Harry, he was dying of boredom and couldn't wait > to get a little action. He had no common sense at all. Alla: You mean the fact that Harry was in DoM had nothing to do with Sirius going there? I'd like to finish on agree to disagree note. JMO, Alla. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 1 12:42:52 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:42:52 -0000 Subject: Changing the WW (was Snape's abuse ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > In any case, what do other people think? Is change of WW society a > goal of JKR's? If so, how is this going to play out? Is it something > we are going to actually see? Will purebloodism still be acceptable > by the last page? Will someone like Snape still be able to teach at > Hogwarts by the last page? Will the house elves still be in bondage > on the last page? Will Slytherin House still be in existance on the > last page? Marianne: I think JKR has certainly laid the groundwork to show that there are great flaws in the structure of wizard society. She also, to my mind, seems to paint the vast majority of wizard society as a group of sheep fairly easily herded by the whims of the Ministry through their obvious control of The Daily Prophet. Whatever slander (libel?) is printed there is apparently accepted as gospel by a great many people. It doesn't strike me as a population seeking to change itself. I don't think we'll see it play out. And I hope we don't because I'm not convinced JKR can pull it off believably in the course of the remaining two books. I simply can't see the final battle ending and all of wizard society suddenly shaking off the prejudices of centuries, handing newly pressed suits to their house-elves, embracing giants, inviting werewolves to dinner. My answer to your last four questions is "yes." All of those attitudes will remain acceptable to some wizards. What I think JKR can do is to have the thrust of the story line of the main characters indicate in what ways the society in general could move to make it a more just society. And JKR could leave us with hints that change may indeed come and we can turn the final page knowing that all will be well in Wizardland eventually. Or maybe JKR will show the final downfall of Voldemort but also show how that doesn't necessarily change the beliefs of your average wizard regarding how elves or squibs or half-humans are treated. Maybe she will simply say that the battle goes on, that people must fight evil not only when it presents itself via the rise of megalomaniacs, but also in its more insidious versions, when it becomes an acceptable part of every day life. Marianne From lcs5639 at msn.com Fri Jul 1 12:06:11 2005 From: lcs5639 at msn.com (epicurious2000) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:06:11 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131801 phoenixgod: > Ginny, I find annoying *and* badly written. smilingator4915: > Except for Ginny's role at the end of CoS, I too never really > thought much about her until reading OotP. But let's remember that > we are following Harry in these books, not any of the other > characters. L: Hey there, new to the site, and thoroughly enjoy it. Though I never felt the urge to put my two cents in until this topic came up. I am not a huge Ginny fan either, and the resemblance to Lily just creeps me out (in terms of her pairing up with Harry). But you guys touched on something I have wondered about for some time - That Ginny is not all she appears to be. First, she was possessed by Riddle/ Voldemort - so who knows what kind of scars on her character that left ... And second, I find it very interesting that Ginny is short from Ginerva (aka Guinivere - sp?) not Virginia. The relevance? Well, in the Arthur tale Guinivere betrays the man she loves. So .... perhaps Ginny is going to betray Harry? Just a theory. L - From amis917 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 13:03:30 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:03:30 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131802 phoenixgod2000: Was she always this way and only her getting over Harry allowed her full personality to come out around them? Either way, it was handled badly. There are ways to lay out real clues that just didn't happen. Regardless of whether the transformation was supposed to be an actual change, or a change in perception, it needed to happen in a way that is less than a giant ton of bricks landing on our heads. While that might happen in real life, in books there needs to be foreshadowing-- and a lot of it when the change is as big a one as Ginny goes through. Amie: While I don't agree with you about Ginny being annoying, I do agree that her development wasn't handled extremely well. I do think though, that Ginny was being shown more because she was becoming closer friends with Hermione. Whenever she joins the trio she always stays with Ginny - at the burrow, at the World Cup, and then at the Order. In book 5, Hermione and Ginny spend the entire summer together. Since Harry wasn't there, we wouldn't see any of this. It does leave the reader out of her change though...which wasn't the greatest choice. It's possible that there are greater things in Ginny's future....or it's possible that she'll just go back into the background. We'll find out in 14 days, 16 hours, 1 minute (so says the countdown on my desktop) :) -Amie From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 1 13:44:17 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:44:17 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: <20050701112306.83799.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- rosered2318 wrote: > > > Yes, she was finally getting sick and tired of being the all- purpose > homework machine for the Trio. > > This Christmas present reflects the fact that the OWLS are less than > six months away and that Hermione is not going to be helping them > fill in their tests and that they'd better get cracking. Personally > I think the present was WAY overdue and it might be a sign that > Hermione is finally feeling secure enough to risk alienating the boys > by stepping out of her self-assumed role of being the "smart one" of > the group. > > Magda Magda doesn't like Harry and Ron and thinks they're mentally lazy and lacking in curiosity. Oh, the horror and shock. Somebody pass around the heart medication. Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. She is a tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many places in OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. The homework planner was one of them. Just as DADA would bring out the worst in Snape, OWLS bring out the worst in Hermione. Lupinlore From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 1 14:01:50 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:01:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > and here is the drumroll.... > > Christmas is, of course, the ever-so-annoying homework planner. > > I have seen the stuff on Hermione being controlled by the imperious > curse, but I just don't want to buy it. It seems to...easy. Can > anyone offer an alternate explanation? Pippin: It sounds like the present a teenage girl might give who is frantic to avoid anything with the slightest boy-girl connotations and who wants to treat both boys the same, the one who's her old friend and the one with the not-so-secret crush on her. Last we saw, Krum was seriously courting Hermione. Until she's dashed his hopes for good, it would be a WW faux pas for her to offer encouragement to Ron, even so much as a chocolate box. Pippin From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Jul 1 14:26:49 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:26:49 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131805 Lupinlore: > Magda doesn't like Harry and Ron and thinks they're mentally lazy > and lacking in curiosity. Oh, the horror and shock. Somebody pass > around the heart medication. Woah. Now, wait a minute. I don't think Magda ever said anything of the sort. IIRC, even *Harry* thinks that he and Ron sometimes "use" Hermione to get the answers for their homework. While this is perfectly normal teenage behavior (Hermione is really freakishly motivated, IMO), it's not really helping them in the long run, it's certainly not helping Hermione (who is already stressed because of OWLS), and it's not even going to be an option when OWLs come around. Lupinlore: > Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. Not a martyr, nope. And I don't think Harry and Ron are any more lazy when it comes to schoolwork than most kids are. But the fact remains that Hermione can't be holding their hands (academically speaking) forever. Lupinlore: > She is a > tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and > relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many > places in OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. The > homework planner was one of them. I don't think she "relishes" doing the boy's homework for them. In several instances, she has tried to make the boys do their work themselves, only to take pity on them as it gets late and they are obviously still struggling. I think it's very hard for her *not* to offer help when they so obviously want/need it, but I think she'd be *delighted* if they would suddenly become as motivated as her and do all their homework on their own. As for the homework planner -- it was a gift, and a practical one. Hermione was obviously feeling a lot of pressure because of the OWLs, and she probably felt that a homework planner was a very appropriate gift -- one that would make studying easier and less stressful for the boys. Harry obviously doesn't see the gift in the same light as she does, but I hardly think Hermione needs to be smacked for giving him a practical present. Lupinlore: > Just as DADA would bring out the > worst in Snape, OWLS bring out the worst in Hermione. *This* I agree with. Hermione really "loses it" a bit in OotP with respect to OWLs. Laura From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 14:37:06 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:37:06 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. She is a > tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many places in OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. The > homework planner was one of them. Just as DADA would bring out the worst in Snape, OWLS bring out the worst in Hermione. Tonks: LUPINLORE!!! What is *this*!!?. I thought that you were the number one advocate of non-violence, the head of the anti-Snape, anti- Dursleys group. WHAT IS THIS??? Sounds very violent to me!!! My, my where is that heart medication?? Shocked, just shocked I am. I am going to have to put this note in your *file*. The very idea, advocating physical violence towards a child!! And a girl at that!! Oh, what next?? Will we find LV at the church picnic playing pin the sock on the elf and behaving himself? Oh, my, my Tonks_op From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 1 15:04:54 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:04:54 -0000 Subject: Harry and Dumbledore in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > What do you think will be the nature of Harry and DD's relationship > in HBP? I'm not talking so much whether it will be student/teacher, > etc. but rather the emotional tone of the relationship. Loving, > stormy, distant, etc. > > > > Tonks: > I think that Harry will mature. And in the course of this he and DD > will be closer than in OOP, about like in GOF, but with a deeper > understanding. I don't think that Harry will be angry for more than > maybe a quarter of the book. Geoff: I believe that Harry's realtionship to Dumbledore will improve, for two reasons. Firstly, I speak from the experience of being someone who tended to live on a short fuse in younger days. On the occasions when I really became volcanic, after the sheer emotional intensity of blowing my top, I usually found that once I had cooled down - sometimes over a lenghty period of time - I could never reach the same pitch of anger over the same thing again; the sheer outburst wiped something out of the equation and I would move back some way towards the former situation. I wonder whether Harry will go the same way. He may still be suspicious of Dumbledore and grudging in his acceptance of what was said but I feel that relations will become less strained and bridges will be repaired. I also do not feel that they can be returned to where they have been in the past because of Harry's increasing maturity and we all know, I think, that our relationships with close adults such as parents or grandparents have to change as we approach adulthood. Not for worse necessarily but because of the shifts in our relative positions vis-a- vis one another. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 1 15:05:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:05:31 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > Tonks: > > LUPINLORE!!! What is *this*!!?. I thought that you were the number > one advocate of non-violence, the head of the anti-Snape, anti- > Dursleys group. WHAT IS THIS??? Sounds very violent to me!!! > My, my where is that heart medication?? Shocked, just shocked I > am. I am going to have to put this note in your *file*. The very > idea, advocating physical violence towards a child!! And a girl at > that!! Oh, what next?? Will we find LV at the church picnic > playing pin the sock on the elf and behaving himself? Oh, my, my > Chuckle. True, all too true. :-) Actually, I was thinking that Hermione deserved a smack in the mouth -- or actually a good telling off -- from Harry and Ron -- and she REALLY needs one from Harry on a couple of occasions in OOTP (her arrogant reaction to McGonagall taking points, the "saving people thing" comment). Oh, I've never been an advocate of non-violence. The creative application of brute force has solved many of the world's problems. I am an advocate of non-violence (both physical and emotional) from an adult to a child, it is true. But in this case we're talking about inter-child relations, where violence is often a very appropriate thing (I am of course joking about the smack in the mouth, but I most heartily approve of Harry beating Draco into a quivering, whimpering pulp). Lupinlore From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 15:11:05 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050701151105.47955.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131809 --- lupinlore wrote: > Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. She is a > tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and > relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many > places in OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. Doesn't that sound suspiciously like....child abuse? Magda ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 15:12:31 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:12:31 -0000 Subject: Lily? In-Reply-To: <42C47023.3060705@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131810 > Heather: > But, it left me wondering -- what "very significant" thing did we > learn about her in book 5? The only thing I really recall was that > DD spelled out in more detail the 'old magic' her sacrifice left in > Harry. But that's not really telling us anything *about her*. > Other things, like that she belonged to the Order and had 'thrice > defied' LV, also apply to James, and to others as well in fact. And > they're not really all that *surprising* things heh. > > Am I forgetting something, or did JKR change tack along the way? Jen: The mystery of Lily's eyes must be what we read about in Book 7, as that's the single most referred to attribute Lily passed on to Harry, and we have so little information about it. Thinking back to to OOTP, we see that Lily's a powerful and compassionate witch, but most of us guessed that already. Even James and Sirius 'eye her wand warily'--perhaps they've been on the wrong end of a few charms?!? Then we hear more about the ancient magic pact, although once again we knew about that. The only other things we discovered about Lily in book 5 are the shape of her green eyes in the Pensieve scene--almond-shaped--and we find out she thrice defied LV. About defying Voldemort, that one does make me think--if she was so good at defying him, why was he willing to spare her at GH? That doesn't add up. Jen, wanting to know the mystery of Harry's and Lily's eyes more than any other plot point in the series. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 1 15:15:40 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:15:40 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: <20050701151105.47955.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- lupinlore wrote: > > > Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. She is a > > tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and > > relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many > > places in OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. > > > Doesn't that sound suspiciously like....child abuse? > > Magda > I suppose that's supposed to be a brilliant sarcastic comeback. Sorry, doesn't work. Try harder. Nope, not child abuse when between child and child. Now, in the case of Snape, he commits child abuse every time he opens his mouth. Lupinlore From mich at ntl.sympatico.ca Fri Jul 1 13:30:58 2005 From: mich at ntl.sympatico.ca (Mich Verrier) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:30:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Holds you in great esteem" References: Message-ID: <064501c57e47$af8601a0$ea59e2d1@michaelyxnei3t> No: HPFGUIDX 131812 I remember at the end of OotP that Harry was very angry and he had every right to be and I found that DD didn't really give him the answers that he was really wanting to hear. I hope that in HBP that he will give him the answers that he is looking for. Because I remember when he was throwing things around DD's office and just making a mess of everything in his anger and DD said go ahead and wreck my office and possessions because I dare say I have too many. Well those are just some of my thoughts. from Mich Verrier From jmkearns at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:08:37 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:08:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131813 A collection of theories regarding Hermione's 5th year Christmas presents (ahem): > Tonks (theory #1): > I think that it just shows how obsessed Hermione is with the exams > coming up. And she is concerned that Ron and Harry are not > organized enough. She is worried that they will not pass. After all, they are her best friends, and she cares deeply about them. So she's worried. This is the one fully platonic explanation I can think of, and it's a good one. But the shippy ones are where it gets FUN... > Pippin's thoughts: > It sounds like the present a teenage girl might give who is frantic > to avoid anything with the slightest boy-girl connotations and > who wants to treat both boys the same, the one who's her old > friend and the one with the not-so-secret crush on her. JohnK: No matter what shippy explanation you want, I think this is true. So the question, then, is WHY is she frantic to avoid such connotations? > Marcela's got a couple good reasons: > 2) Hermione likes Harry. > So, what does a girl give to her two best friends when she > harbours feelings for one and the other one is harbouring feelings > for her? She gives them the exact same present, no preferences > and feelings revealed. JohnK: Just like Pippin said. This was the explanation I jumped to upon first reading the book, but then I was a H/Hr shipper at the time. > Marcela again: > 3) Hermione likes Ron. > What I find difficult to explain is that if she really liked Ron, > why wouldn't she give him some other present, a bit more 'personal' > perhaps? in OoTP, just when Ron started showing his interest in > her? Harry was already involved with Cho, so what was stopping > her from showing a bit more preference for Ron in the gift > department? JohnK: This possibly evidence for her *not* liking Ron. She knows he likes her and is pretty sure Harry doesn't, so what's the risk in showing it if she likes him? (I can only think of two reasons, #6 & #7 below). I'll add a few theories to the mix as well. Combine as you see fit: 4) Hermione doesn't like Harry *or* Ron, but thinks that one (or maybe both!) like her, and doesn't want to lead anybody on. 5) Hermione doesn't like Ron, and is terrified that if she gets Harry and Ron different gifts Ron will freak out with jealousy again. This works whether she likes Harry or not. 6) Hermione likes Ron, but doesn't want to do anything about it because Harry's friendship is too important to her and she's worried about alienating him. 7) Hermione likes Ron but worries a relationship could end her friendship with *him*. 8) Hermione likes Harry, but is scared to show it since she's pretty sure he doesn't share the sentiments. 9) Hermione likes Harry *and* Ron, and is so confused about how she feels that she throws her hands up in the air and gets them both something platonic (I had a friend in this situation once). 10) No matter who she likes, she feels so comfortable around them- like a husband and wife after many years- that she's totally cool with getting them something PRACTICAL. 11) Hermione likes and/or doesn't like Harry and/or Ron, but regardless is sick of people (like us) thinking she does and so tries to avoid all connotations and put the whole thing to rest. I wonder what she'll get them *next* year? Or, for that matter, what she'll get Harry for his birthday when Ron's not around. ;) JohnK, who just had way too much fun with speculation. From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Fri Jul 1 16:53:30 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:53:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131815 On Jul 1, 2005, at 11:08 AM, John Kearns wrote: > A collection of theories regarding Hermione's 5th year Christmas > presents (ahem): > > > Marcela again: > > 3) Hermione likes Ron.? > > What I find difficult to explain is that if she really liked Ron, > > why wouldn't she give him some other present, a bit more 'personal' > > perhaps? .. > > JohnK: > 10) No matter who she likes, she feels so comfortable around them- > like a husband and wife after many years- that she's totally cool > with getting them something PRACTICAL. Or, perhaps like my husband, who as a newlywed, gave me an organizer because he thinks they're neat. and that everyone would just LOVE to have one. According to his reasoning, why would anyone not want one? He thought it was the perfect gift. It had the potential to change me, revolutionize my life even. Now he knows that it's hopeless--nothing is going to make me super organized. I do, however, give him a leather-bound engagement diary ever year, and he adores it. Barbara Roberts (Ivogun), who cracks up laughing thinking of the organizer gift. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjpandy at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 16:53:30 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:53:30 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > > > In short, what sort of conversations about Harry has DD been having > in his office which have led him to express these opinions? What > events or controversies might have initiated these conversations? > Who do you think has been party to them? Why would DD feel the need > to express positive opinions in what Fortescue seems to imply was a > rather emphatic (or at least very unmistakeable) manner? JJ's reply: As Head of Gryffindor, I would imagine that McGonagall is the one who has participated in the most conversations about Harry in DD's office. Even if Snape was in there complaining about Harry, DD most likely would have summoned McGonagall to participate in at least part of the conversation or followed up with her at a later time for her input. I also imagine that DD is one who likes to talk out loud to himself, like he did when he consulted one of his mysterious objects and saw the snake separate into 2 parts (sorry if the details are fuzzy on that one). Of course, DD talking to himself is not really done in private with the type of portraits he has in his office. Outside of actually talking with Harry himself in DD's office, I would imagine DD has had lots of conversations about Harry with others, with himself, or with the portraits - after he defeated Quirrel/Voldemort; after he fought the Basilik, saved Ginny, and defeated Tom Riddle; after he defeated the Dementors in PoA; after he survived each contest in GoF; after he survived a battle with Voldemort and returned with Cedric's body; after he defeated Dementors near Privet Drive; before and after his trial at the Ministry of Magic. I wonder if the other headmasters/headmistrisses in the portraits ever had so much to talk about during their years of service to Hogwarts (outside of the first time the Chamber of Secrets was opened and when Harry first became the Boy Who Lived)? -JJ From vloe at dallasnews.com Fri Jul 1 17:09:37 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (firebird) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:09:37 -0000 Subject: Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131817 >heather the buzzard wrote: > >what "very significant" thing did we learn about her [Lily] in book >5? [referring to JKR's quote saying that something "very >significant" about Lily would be revealed in book 5. I don't have the book handy, but I think I'm correct in saying that we learned her last name (Evans) as well as that she was not always smitten with James Potter. In fact, she was heartily annoyed by his arrogance and grandstanding in their fifth year (as revealed in the memorty of Snape's that Harry witnesses in the pensieve). The fact that Lily and James didn't begin dating until their seventh year leaves open the possibility that she was romantically involved with someone else before that, which could become an important plot element. We also learn that, beyond being a very loving mother, she was an outspoken, independent woman with enough prowess in magic that the Maurauders were wary of provoking her too far. She also shows a very strong sense of justice. firebird From ewe2 at 4dot0.net Fri Jul 1 15:25:17 2005 From: ewe2 at 4dot0.net (ewe2) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:25:17 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: References: <20050701112306.83799.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050701152517.GA7320@4dot0.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131819 On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 01:44:17PM -0000, lupinlore wrote: This is a logically false premise and unsubstantiated by canon. Statement A > Hermione is not some martyr to a pair of lazy boys. Statement B > She is a tightly integrated part of the trio who has chosen her own role and > relishes it. Sometimes she relishes it far too much, as in many places in > OOTP where she badly needs a smack in the mouth. Statement C > The homework planner was one of them. Put together, Statement A and C are logically incompatible. If your meaning was that Hermione does not need to assist the boys, how is giving them that independence with a planner offensive? If your meaning is that Hermione enjoys assisting the boys, why would she reduce her role with a planner? You cannot prove Statement B but you use it as a bizarre justification for gratuitous violence and make an illogical link between Statements A and C. There is no canon for Statements A,B, or C. Q.E.D. ewe2, penguin of doom and professor of irrelevant posts 101. -- sed awk grep cat dd ..Im a luser baby ,so why don't you killall -kill me. From devika261 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:30:40 2005 From: devika261 at hotmail.com (Devika) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:30:40 -0000 Subject: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosered2318" wrote: > I couldn't find whether or not this had been discussed but did > anyone else notice an abrupt change in Hermione's presents to > Harry? I think that Hermione's presents over the years, including the homework planner, have all been appropriate to the time that they were given. See below. > Book 1: Chocolate Frogs (yummy - and he collects the cards) At this point, Hermione and Harry have only been friends for a couple of months. Chocolate Frogs seem like a good "generic" gift for a friend you haven't known long enough to get him something really personal. And it's even better since Hermione probably knows that Harry collects the cards. > Book 2: Luxury Eagle Feather Quill (practical, but with a pleasing > appearance) Definitely a useful gift. It's very nice and I'm sure Harry liked it and used it. It's not very personal either, IMO, but I still think it's an appropriate gift. > Book 3: Birthday - Broomstick Servicing Kit (woah!), Christmas - > don't find out (fiasco with a Firebolt) The Broomstick Servicing Kit is a great gift. Again, it is very practical, but it also shows that Hermione knows how much Harry cares about his broom and enjoys flying. The perfect blend of practical and personal, IMO. > Book 4: Birthday - A cake (perfect for our starving Harry) > Christmas - Quidditch Teams of Britian and Ireland (a book but at > least its about Quidditch) Exactly. Both gifts manage to be practical, personal, and enjoyable at the same time. > Book 5: Birthday - Honeydukes Chocolates I think that in this case, Hermione knows what Harry must be going through at the Dursley's during this particular summer, and she thinks he can use some cheering up. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), Ron got Harry the same gift. Overall, it's a good gift from two friends who want to be there for Harry but don't know exactly what they can do to help him. > and here is the drumroll.... > > Christmas is, of course, the ever-so-annoying homework planner. > > > It seems to me as though this is the perfect kind of present someone > *thought* Hermione would give. It is very practical and has to do > with school, but it doesn't match up with her previous gifts. Those > gifts were all personal and enjoyable on some level, but a nagging > homework planner? It doesn't fit.... I think it fits perfectly. As you said, Hermione's gifts up to this point have been both personal and enjoyable. However, they have also been practical. The homework planner is obviously practical. Sure, it's not much fun, but I doubt that Hermione thought that there would be much time for fun with OWLs to study for. I think an enjoyable gift that would detract from Ron and Harry's studying time would seem much more out of place here. Hermione's gift, IMO, is thoughtful and entirely appropriate. It shows that she cares about both Harry and Ron (all SHIPs aside). She wants them to do the best they can on their OWLs, and she knows that she won't have the time to nag them to study since she'll be too busy studying herself. So why not get them a gift that will nag them for her? It only makes sense ;) Now, if only she could get them to use the homework planners. But I guess it's the thought that counts :) One more thing: I am absolutely not going to get into a SHIPping debate here, but I don't think we know what kind of gifts Hermione has gotten for Ron on all of his birthdays. Until we do, I'm not sure that we can really use her gifts for Harry to support any SHIP, one way or the other. And that's all I'm going to say about that! Devika From Mhochberg at aol.com Fri Jul 1 18:30:02 2005 From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:30:02 EDT Subject: Weasely Countdown: Time to feed the owls Message-ID: <1de.3eaf3a06.2ff6e5aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131821 Today is the first day of the Weasley Countdown Clock. _http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp?sec=5&sec2=2_ (http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp?sec=5&sec2=2) Are you doing to prepare for the books release? Canceling all appointments? Taking vacation time? Or just calling in sick? Don't forget to feed the owls today! ---Mary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Fri Jul 1 19:07:23 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:07:23 -0700 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin Message-ID: <42C5946B.2070406@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131822 Kathy writes: I hardly know who to answer. Everyone has very good points and it is all quite believable. I actually have no personal investment in who is the spy. I am just wildly curious and Rowling is extremely sneaky. I don't "love Snape" and I don't "hate" Sirius. I do suspect Rowling. In the first book, she made Snape the obvious bad acter. It, of course, turned out that it was timid little Quirrel. In the second book, the obvious rotter was Malfoy, but of course it turned out to be shy little Ginny. In POA nobody looks more like the man of the hour than Sirius. He "loves" Harry, Harry has a family again and everything is wonderful. Snape blows a gasket and looks like a complete idiot as well as telling the world that he is a DE. Should we not suspect this? In Goblet of Fire, I loved Moody. I thought he was great, and what happened? Turned out he wasn't Moody at all. I was led down the garden path again. JKR sneaks little subtle clues into the books, such as Quirrel being in town at the time of the break-in at Gringotts, and fainting over a troll when we were told that he had a special affinity for them. In CoS we read that Ginny had some kind of a problem that she wanted to talk about, but it was done so casually, I paid little attention. In PoA we are very skilfully led to fear what Sirius is going to do and then we are told that, no, we have it all wrong, it is Peter. All the clues about Scabbers are kind of cat centred, but why should we pay attention to a cat chasing a rat? In GoF which people are trying to help Harry win? Moody, Bagman, and Sirius. Friends don't count. Rowling just uses them to disguise the bad ones. I'm a slow learner, perhaps, but, looking at the books, I think some things may happen. Harry's whole perception of the world was changed when he found out that he was a wizard. His support was Dumbledore and his friends, and then Sirius. His only place of safety outside of Hogwarts is the Dursleys. Rowling has started to distance Harry from his friends, she snuffed Sirius, and I would bet that Voldemort is going to do something crappy to the Dursleys now that he can overcome the protective magic. Harry no longer trusts Dumbledore. Harry has found out that his father is not what he believed him to be. What would it do to Harry to find out that Sirius wasn't what he believed him to be? Peter is set up to help Harry in some way as owing a life debt, and Snape is the only one who has answered Harry's most pressing questions. Rowling said that this book was going to get darker for Harry, that she would not want to be Harry because of what he was going to have to go through, and that a lot of people would not like this book. I never had any questions about Sirius either but I found that over time I had to go back and look at descriptions and conversations. Not so much as what was said or done but HOW it was said or done. To me this whole thread on Sirius is not so much about Sirius as it is about JKR. She said that she killed Sirius for a reason. What is it about disappearing Sirius that will further the plot. I believe that something about Sirius will return in this book because in one interview she said that she had made a mistake. I think that mistake was talking about Sirius in the present tense instead of the past. What is it about Sirius that could either make it worse for Harry, which is what I suspect, or better for Harry in the next book? Why did she spend two and a half books on Sirius and then drop him through the veil? If I ever need a lawyer for something, I want one of you guys:-) House is "leviosa" proof but water is rising in the basement:-) KJ From riberam at glue.umd.edu Fri Jul 1 19:19:18 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:19:18 -0000 Subject: "Holds you in great esteem" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > > The emotions and feelings DD > has concerning Harry are probably obvious to the portraits and the > professors within DD's circle. He has probably talked about Harry on > many occasions, especially of how proud he is that Harry has been > able to overcome obstacles. > I favor the idea that DD was closer to the Potters than has been > revealed to us. And I think that it is that relationship, not the > event that made Harry famous, that led to DD wanting Harry retrieved > from Godric's Hollow that night. > I think there is another factor here affecting how much affection Dumbledore shows for Harry: his position of Headmaster, who should treat his 1000 students equally without showing favoritism, or at least not too much. It is obvious to everyone, as Ron points out sometime, that Dumbledore treats Harry better than everyone else, and forgives him a great deal of rule breaking. But he still has to try to be fair. Also, I am thinking of something else: while Dumbledore may have known Harry since before he was born, and may have reasons to care for this baby that we don't know yet, Harry is just meeting this crazy but fun old man at 11 years old, and can't be expected to love him in return right away. The relationship has to develop, the affection has to grow, and I am sure that Dumbledore would like this rather than imposing a relationship on Harry. Wow, the possibilities! Just a couple more weeks!!!! Maryblue From riberam at glue.umd.edu Fri Jul 1 19:28:28 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:28:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Dumbledore in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > What do you think will be the nature of Harry and DD's relationship > in HBP? I'm not talking so much whether it will be student/teacher, > etc. but rather the emotional tone of the relationship. Loving, > stormy, distant, etc. > > > > Tonks: > I think that Harry will mature. And in the course of this he and DD > will be closer than in OOP, about like in GOF, but with a deeper > understanding. I don't think that Harry will be angry for more than > maybe a quarter of the book. Harry will become DD's apprentice. DD > will teach Harry things that no one else can. This will help Harry > to be a great wizard and able to go on by himself. Harry will feel a > great affection for DD by this time. I think that Harry will also > form a closer bond with Lupin. And since we all think that DD will > be killed; I also fear for Lupin. I quite agree with Tonks about the relationship between Harry and Dumbledore developing over time and Harry maturing. Harry seems to have a deep sense of responsibility, and this will lead him to agree, from early on book 6 I think, to work closely with Dumbledore and learn as much as he wants. And I think that it will be through this close interaction that Harry will understand Dumbedore and learn of his feelings for him, while developing his afection and admiration for the mentor. Maryblue From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 1 19:29:38 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:29:38 +0100 Subject: Bode's madness Message-ID: <000501c57e73$39a5c070$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131825 As I continued with OotP tonight, I must confess that I wondered why Bode changed so dramatically over a period of four months from a sane man to someone having to be kept in a ward with people like the Longbottoms. Harry's vision in Chapter 26 explained this. He witnessed LV's interview with Rookwood and, during Harry's conversation afterwards with Ron and Hermione, I remembered that Dumbledore had said in Chapter 37 that only Harry and LV could take down the prophecy. Anyone else who attempted it would be driven mad. Bode, whilst under the imperious curse, controlled by Lucius Malfoy, had obviously attempted to take down the prophecy and was consigned to the closed ward in St Mungo's as a result. Clearly, Bode's mind was getting back to normal by the time Harry and his friends visited the Closed Ward in error and to prevent Bode speaking out, LV arranged his murder. Derek From rkelley at blazingisp.net Fri Jul 1 17:34:48 2005 From: rkelley at blazingisp.net (anders217) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:34:48 -0000 Subject: Godmother and maid of honor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131826 We hear lots about Sirius being Harry's godfather, and he was the best man at Lily & James' wedding. Why do we never hear anything about who was Lily's maid of honor, or whether or not Harry has a godmother? Was Petunia Lily's wedding attendant? "anders217" From jmkearns at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 19:42:39 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:42:39 -0000 Subject: Bode's madness In-Reply-To: <000501c57e73$39a5c070$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131827 > Derek: > As I continued with OotP tonight, I must confess that I wondered > why Bode changed so dramatically over a period of four months > from a sane man to someone having to be kept in a ward with people > like the Longbottoms. Harry's vision in Chapter 26 explained > this. He witnessed LV's interview with Rookwood and, during > Harry's conversation afterwards with Ron and Hermione, I > remembered that Dumbledore had said in Chapter 37 that only > Harry and LV could take down the prophecy. Anyone else who > attempted it would be driven mad. Bode, whilst under the > imperious curse, controlled by Lucius Malfoy, had obviously > attempted to take down the prophecy and was consigned to the > closed ward in St Mungo's as a result. Clearly, Bode's > mind was getting back to normal by the time Harry and his friends > visited the Closed Ward in error and to prevent Bode speaking out, > LV arranged his murder. I think you hit it on the head. There are a couple of other interesting things of note regarding Bode. First, an unidentified man comes to visit him in the hospital (p486 Scholastic) before the plant arrives, as has been discussed here very recently. Second, when we see him in the elevator (p135), he seems a little off - and we discover later it's probably because he's under the Imperius at that very moment, perhaps even on his way to try to retrieve the prophecy. So JKR uses him to show us what the effects of the Imperius curse look like: "a sepulchral voice," "unblinking," an "unfaltering gaze." Odds that we'll want to look for these again in the future? JohnK From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 20:19:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:19:58 -0000 Subject: I still hate Ginny Weasley!!! ... She's such a 'Weasley'. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > All this talk about Ginny makes me ask: In the Forbidden Forest > when the sextet converges and discusses flying to London, Ginny > talks about the thestrals as if she prefectly knew about them. Did > Hagrid show them to the fourth years too even though he said he was > keeping them for fifth years only? > > Even Luna surprises me with her knowledge but then it's Luna. How > come ginny knows so much thestrals? > Bye > Adi bboyminn: So, the basic question is, does Hagrid teach the same class to everyone, or does he tailor specific classes to each class/grade year? I think there are hints that Hagrid teaches each class year the same information. Hagrid is still pretty new at his job, and I don't think he has had time to devise 7 unique lesson plans. I think Hagrid's comment that he was saving the Thestrals until Fifth years, means he was saving them until Harry was in his Fifth/OWL years before introducing them to everyone. So, he's not saying 'fifth years /only/', he is saying until Harry is in his fifth/OWL years. In that sense, Hagrid is somewhat fixated on Harry, and teaching Harry form the foundation for all his lesson plans. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 21:22:27 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godmother and maid of honor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050701212227.78333.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131829 --- anders217 wrote: > We hear lots about Sirius being Harry's godfather, > and he was > the best man at Lily & James' wedding. Why do we > never hear > anything about who was Lily's maid of honor, I believe there was one, she must have been a friend of Lily's, but we don't really know a lot about Lily's friends. > whether or not > Harry has a godmother? If you search for messages a few days back, under "godfather, correction" you'll see the entire discussion. Harry does NOT have a godmother, his baptism was in a hurry, and only Sirius was there, if Sirius had gotten married (which he didn't), then Harry would have a godmother, but he doesn't. Was Petunia Lily's wedding > attendant? I guess she was, probably not Vernon, but Petunia, IMO, loved Lily, and was at her wedding, maybe we'll find out in 16 days!!! Juli, saying goodbye for a while, I'm going away for a week, I'll be back around July 12th. Take care everyone. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 1 22:34:28 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:34:28 -0000 Subject: Fudge & the newspaper (was: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131830 Kathy: > > 7. Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius with the picture of Peter > > in it that Sirius recognized.Why would he bother visiting > > Sirius????? Chris: > I don't think he was visiting Sirius, but probably had business at > Azkaban, and happened to pass by Sirius' cell. He's had a hard time, > been a model prisoner, why not let him have a paper? Plus, > everything we know about Fudge shows him to be incompetent. Probably > didn't think anything about a little kindness to an accused > psychopath. SSSusan: Heh heh. You're being too naive, Chris. ;-) The reason Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius was because it showed a photo of the Weasley family on the front... a photo which included Scabbers the rat... a being whom Fudge (ahem, make that ESE!Fudge) had reason to know Sirius Black would recognize. Fudge gave Sirius the newspaper to get the wheels turning ["He's at Hogwarts!"]. Didn't you ever wonder why Sirius was able to escape so easily? Perhaps one ESE!Fudge gave a little instruction to the Dementors, had them back off a wee bit to make it easier? See my http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107293 and a whole mess of other posts around that time which discussed the case for ESE!Fudge (not to be confused with BumblingWafflingIncompetent! Fudge). Just one woman's opinion. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 23:21:18 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge & the newspaper (was: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050701232118.90642.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131831 > Chris: > > I don't think he was visiting Sirius, but probably > had business at > > Azkaban, and happened to pass by Sirius' cell. > He's had a hard time, > > been a model prisoner, why not let him have a > paper? Juli: Do you really think that Fudge cares even a bit about the inmates in Azkaban? No was Jose, if it were up to him, IMO, he would allow the Dementors to kiss them all. > SSSusan: > Heh heh. You're being too naive, Chris. ;-) The > reason Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius was because it showed a photo of the Weasley family on the front... a photo which included Scabbers the rat... a being whom Fudge (ahem, make that ESE!Fudge) had reason to know Sirius Black would recognize. Fudge gave Sirius the newspaper to get the wheels turning ["He's at Hogwarts!"]. Didn't you ever wonder why Sirius was able to escape so easily? Perhaps one ESE!Fudge gave a little instruction to the Dementors, had them back off a wee bit to make it easier? Juli: I like your idea Susan, no-one can be that useless, he's just way too incompetent not to be ESE, or can he? But if he is ESE, then why does DD used to trust him (at least before GoF)? I may sound a lot like Hermione but if we can't trust him, who can we trust? I believe DD up to his little toe, and I believe that if he thinks someone's *good*, an idiot nevertheless, but *good*, then he must be good. (Am I also being too naive Susan?). OTOH, every one of his actions in OoP would seem to me that he was ESE, so what if he turned Evil after LV returned? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jul 1 23:39:59 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:39:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christmas present pattern... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C5D44F.50306@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131833 lupinlore wrote: > Nope, not child abuse when between child and child. Goodness me, do you have the exact rules? Like what's the age difference that you'd allow for it not to be abuse? Weight difference? What if one of them is a boxing champion? Boy vs girl? Two against one? Did you cheer all the way through the Pensieve scene in OoTP? Do you consider Dudley to be a saint, unfairly hated by all the readers? Irene From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 23:41:38 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 23:41:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131834 > >>Sarah: > > I work for child protective service. And Snape is abusive. > Sorry. He's emotionally abusive (yes, there is such a thing), > neglectful, and physically abusive towards Harry in OotP. > Umbridge is abusive in her punishments, but she is not nearly as > bad as Snape is. (At least in her duties as a teacher before > she tried the imperious curse.) Betsy Hp: Huh. So you would call a person who has admitted to trying to kill a child and torture a child, and whose punishments are not complete until blood is drawn, *less* abusive than a man who will verbally attack a child but has never put a child in harms way and has in fact saved at least two children's lives. It's an... *interesting* tact to take, to say the least. > >>Sarah: > > First of all, Snape is a bigot... Betsy Hp: Erm... huh? Where's your proof of that? > >>Sarah: > ...and a "reformed" Death Eater. As a Death Eater, he has > probably been asked to kill, torture, maim, etc innocent people > for their ancestry or beliefs. I think most readers tend to > forget that he was a Death Eater, and what being a Death Eater > entails. Remember, Sirius' brother was killed when he tried to > back out for what he was being asked to do. Betsy Hp: I, for one, have not overlooked Snape's past. Nor have I overlooked the fact that for Snape to leave the Death Eaters probably took all of the bravery and cunning he had. What Regulus's death showed us is that one doesn't leave the Death Eaters lightly or on a mere whim. I think that Snape is one of Dumbledore's most loyal followers, and of course I'll have to rethink things if this is shown to not be the case (highly unlikely, IMO). However, to judge Snape on the mistakes of his past, to completely overlook all he has done and is doing to make up for those past mistakes is... well obviously your right as a reader, but not something I'm able to do. > >>Sarah: > > Snapes behavior towards Hermione is neglectful at one point: he > did not allow her to get medical treatment for her teeth after > Draco's spell hit her. Not taking a child in for medical > treatment is considered medical neglect. She went in spite of > Snape, but it was Snape's duty to have someone take her to the > hospital wing. (Just as it was Hagrid's duty to take Draco to the > hospital wing when Draco was injured by the hippogriff.) Betsy Hp: This is just wrong. Hermione ran as soon as Snape made the admittedly unkind remark about her teeth. "Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, "I see no difference." Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran, ran all the way up the corridor and out of sight." (GOF scholastic hardback ed. p.300) Snape had neither the opportunity nor the need to tell Hermione to go to the hospital wing, as he did with Goyle. Neither child had an escort, but neither child needed an escort. Draco, on the other hand, had collapsed from his injuries and whether he was faking or not, didn't appear to be in any condition to take himself to the hospital wing. When Harry has his dream in Trelawney's class and comes to with a scorching headache, Trelawney doesn't ask anyone to escort him to the hospital wing. (ibid p.578) Actually, she comes the closest, IMO, of denying a child access to medical treatment they appeared to have need of. > >>Sarah: > > Snape was physically abusive towards Harry in OotP. Snape grabbed > Harry hard enough to cause Harry pain in the arms (and Harry is > used to pain), threw Harry to the ground, and threw things at > Harry. Betsy Hp: And this is where your argument starts to fall apart. Because Umbridge grabs Marietta Edgecombe and shakes her "very hard" (OotP scholastic hardback ed. p.616). So either, you feel that shaking a child hard is not physical abuse (and you seem willing to overlook the "carve into the back of your hand until you draw blood" thing, so maybe this *is* what you're saying) or you've got a bias. The unfortunately familiar "Any teacher who's not Snape can do whatever they want to any child that's not Harry" bias. It's what leads to the somewhat contorted, "Snape made Neville shiver! He is the EVIL!" followed by "Moody bounced Draco until he was shaking in pain and humiliation! He is the FUNNY!" arguments that leave me scratching my head in confusion. > >>Sarah: > > I very much doubt that Dumbledore would permit this if he knew, > but Harry didn't tell anyone about the physical abuse. Betsy Hp: Dumbledore seems to have a zero tolorance policy for any kind of physical abuse. Which, since we know that Arthur still bears the scars of his punishment for being out past curfew (GoF p.616), is something I think is probably unique to Dumbledore within the WW. Especially when we see how quickly Umbridge is able to legalize whipping students once Dumbledore is gone (OotP p.674). I don't think Dumbledore would have approved of Snape throwing Harry from his classroom (which I honestly took as Snape trying to *prevent* himself from physically abusing Harry -- the man was *furious*), but I think he wouldn't have approved of Harry's snooping either. And I'm quite sure Dumbledore would have been furious if he'd learned about Umbridge's blood-quill. That was a particularly cruel punishment, IMO (and *nothing* like getting whapped by a ruler, again, IMO). However, when it comes to emotional abuse though Snape is horrid to the children, the only one who seems really affected by it is Neville. And unfortuntely, I think Neville's family would approve of the treatment. I would also add, that though Snape makes the students fear and hate *him*, McGonagall seems to favor manipulating the student she's punishing into being hated by their peers. In PS/SS she causes Harry and Hermione and Neville to be hated by practically the entire school. Even quidditch becomes an ordeal for Harry, and Hermione stops answering questions in class. (SS scholastic paperback ed. p.244-245) McGonagall takes a similar tactic in PoA when she sets Neville apart from his housemates by refusing to give him the password to the Gyffindor dorms. (PoA scholastic hardback ed. p.271) Neville isn't *hated* but he's certainly made an object of public disdain. And again, his entire house is made aware of just what an idiot he is. I would argue that when it comes to true emotional abuse, McGonagall could teach Snape a few tricks. She's certainly got a knack for making a child miserable beyond her classroom door. Betsy Hp, who had to delete her previous post for bad vocabulary From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 00:15:46 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:15:46 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: <42C5D44F.50306@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131835 > >>Lupinlore: > > Nope, not child abuse when between child and child. > >>Irene: > Goodness me, do you have the exact rules? Like what's the > age difference that you'd allow for it not to be abuse? > Weight difference? What if one of them is a boxing champion? Boy > vs girl? Two against one? > Betsy Hp: Well, we know Lupinlore approves of, and in fact cheers for, two on one violence. (Though I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that maybe his memory of that particular scene is a bit faulty?) > >>Lupinlore (in message # 131808) > > ...I most heartily approve of Harry beating Draco into a > quivering, whimpering pulp). Betsy Hp: Because in this scene (as in practically every other instance when Harry bests Draco) the fight is completely unfair. (OotP scholastic hardback ed. p.413) For one, Harry is still clutching the snitch in the fist he uses to punch Draco with. That could conceivably be equated with weighting your fist with a stack of quarters or other such dirty-fighting tactics. For another, Harry has a partner in his beating of Draco. George Weasley. Remember, George is seventeen years old and a beater. Draco is fifteen and a seeker. There's a *major* physical difference between the two. George is on the down slope of puberty. He's near his full bulk. Draco is just beginning to enter puberty, and he's generally described as small or slight. George's athletic prowess has a lot to do with upper-body strength. Draco's concentrates more on speed and agility. Even without the addition of Harry and his weighted fist, the fight was unfair. Draco should have known better, of course. It's foolish to pick on a boy's family and *not* expect a beat-down to occur. But I'm not sure Harry should be patted on the back for his behavior. It's hardly heroic to beat someone with such overwhelming odds on your side. Betsy Hp From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Fri Jul 1 22:36:11 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:36:11 -0000 Subject: Why is Snape allowed to continue spying? Double Trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131836 Steve/bboyminn: > As far as Snape, sadly (for you), I must once again trot out my > Double-Double Agent theory. The best explanation I can come up > with to explain how Snape can still be at Hogwarts and yet still > appear to be working with Voldemort is that he is a double-double > agent spy. Snape's loyalties are an issue near and dear to all of our hearts... the many excellent recent posts on the subject have made me feel compelled, or at least inspired, to de-lurk after far too long. While the matter itself could provide enough fodder for several groups, my take on it - thank goodness - could not. Geo: >> But Voldemort had Crouch under the Imperius curse for more a few >> months and would have had the time and leisure to interrogate the >> former head of the department of magical law enforcement on what >> happened after his fall and which Death Eaters snitched and which >> remained loyal and given his position he would have certainly been >> an expert on the matter considering he presided during the >> wizengamot trial in which Karkaroff snitched on Rookwood and would >> have probably known about Snape being a spy so that the latter >> could have avoided Azkaban. I've pondered these same issues for far longer than might be considered entirely healthy. I've come to the conclusion that it is possible to reconcile Snape's apparent good standing with Voldemort with his exposure at Karkaroff's hearing. In OotP, Snape tells Umbridge that he's been teaching at Hogwarts for fourteen years - i.e., he started teaching there in 1981. Given McGonagall's specification of a December starting date for her own employment, it seems reasonable, though not absolutely necessary, to assume a normative September start date (normative from a textual perspective if not an internal one, at least). This would have Snape working for Dumbledore from 1 September 1981, two months before Voldemort's first fall. (We can be certain about the date because in Potterverse, 1 September always falls on a Monday.) It is inconceivable that Voldemort could have remained unaware of this (or that Snape could have banked on his ignorance). Steve/bboyminn: > First, Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to appear to betray > Voldemort, but with the real intent of acting as Voldemort's spy on > Dumbledore. > > Then Snape actually joined Dumbledore and now became a spy against > Voldemort. Since Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore, it is expected > that Snape, in order to maintian his cover, will appear to be loyal > to Dumbledore and acting against Voldemort. So any betrayals > Voldemort sees will be expected as part of the game. This hypothesis strikes me as making a lot of sense - it seems likely that Snape volunteered or Voldemort assigned him to spy on Dumbledore. If the former is the case, the repentent ex-Death Eater story that Dumbledore believes is a reality; if the latter, it was true despite Voldemort's understanding, became true despite his intentions, or remains false. I will spare you further ruminations and defer to Red Hen's more eloquent and far more thorough analysis at http://www.redhen-publications.com. (Click "My Work," "Commentary," at the bottom of that menu "Potterverse." Two essays are most relevant to the issue at hand: "Double-00 Sevvie" and "Coward and Oathbreaker." Needless to say, I don't know how she feels about direct links.) These are must-reads for all grown-up Harry Potter fans with even a remote interest - sympathetic, hostile, or dispassionate - in Snape. The possibilities I consider reasonably likely are those that she proposes, with one other - namely that Voldemort correctly understands that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and is using him accordingly. If this is the case, Voldemort can feed the Order misleading information (with occasional tidbits of truth to preserve the game, of course) and learn about the Order's activities at the same time. I sincerely doubt that anyone is as good an Occlumens as Voldemort is a Legilimens, Dumbledore possibly excepted. Steve/bboyminn: Snape on the other hand has an > excuse for not appearing, and that makes him 'the one I BELIEVE has > left me forever'; meaning truly joined Dumbledore. > > Once the graveyard ordeal was over, Snape contacts Voldemort again, > pledges his loyalty and offers to continue spying against > Dumbledore. Even if Voldemort doesn't believe Snape, he certainly > believes he can use Snape to his advantage for as long as it serves > him. To expand on that a little: I would not be surprised if Coward, Traitor and Servant were not, as many suppose, Karkaroff, Snape and Crouch Jr but rather Bagman, Karkaroff and Crouch Jr. Once again, I'm with Red Hen's take on this one; Pharnabazus' hypothesis (http://www.livejournal.com/users/pharnabazus/, part 8) also seems promising. I would add a few observations of my own: first, however great Rita Skeeter's propensity to exaggerate and distort, her claim to have damaging inside information on Ludo Bagman is worth examining. An ostensible fool's innocent passing of information to an ostensible upright Unspeakable, whose secret affiliation with Voldemort astonished even Barty Crouch Sr, is neither inside information nor likely to make anyone's skin crawl. I doubt it would so much as give Gilderoy Lockhart gooseflesh on a cold day. Add that to Winky's insistence that Bagman is a "bad Dark wizard" and the man is cast in a very different light. As for the bottom line - whether Snape is really on the side of the angels or of Satan's party - I imagine we'll have to wait until book seven before we know for sure. Probably about two sentences before the last, to boot. And what fun would it be if we couldn't speculate? -hekatesheadband (who likes speculation, animals, and drafty old buildings) From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 02:23:56 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 02:23:56 -0000 Subject: Fudge & the newspaper (was: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again?) In-Reply-To: <20050701232118.90642.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131837 > > SSSusan: > > Heh heh. You're being too naive, Chris. ;-) The > > reason Fudge gave the newspaper to Sirius was > because it showed a photo of the Weasley family on the > front... a photo which included Scabbers the rat... a > being whom Fudge (ahem, make that ESE!Fudge) had > reason to know Sirius Black would recognize. Fudge > gave Sirius the newspaper to get the wheels turning > ["He's at Hogwarts!"]. Didn't you ever wonder why > Sirius was able to escape so easily? Perhaps one > ESE!Fudge gave a little instruction to the Dementors, > had them back off a wee bit to make it easier? > > Juli: I like your idea Susan, no-one can be that > useless, he's just way too incompetent not to be ESE, > or can he? But if he is ESE, then why does DD used to > trust him (at least before GoF)? I may sound a lot > like Hermione but if we can't trust him, who can we > trust? I believe DD up to his little toe, and I > believe that if he thinks someone's *good*, an idiot > nevertheless, but *good*, then he must be good. (Am I > also being too naive Susan?). OTOH, every one of his > actions in OoP would seem to me that he was ESE, so > what if he turned Evil after LV returned? > Ok, I had started to write a sarcastic response to this, which included what I dreamed of as the exchange between Fudge and Sirius, but decided against it. Del chastised me on the use of sarcasm before, so I refrained. However, ARE YOU GUYS CRAZY? Since I've never had the pleasure of arguing with you two yet, this is a treat! :-) I got one response to this: Dumbledore! DD was just a **slight bit perturbed** when he discovered that Moody was really Barty. How would he react when he discovers that Fudge orchestrated everything? Hmmm. I wonder. Perhaps open up the largest can of magical whoop-ass the WW has ever seen? Fudge would have to know this. LV can not protect Fudge from Dumbledore. You would say, well maybe Dumbledore will never discover that it was Fudge. If you were Fudge would you take this chance? I sure as hell wouldn't. I don't care if Harry is the only one who can beat LV. There is a reason LV fears Dumbledore. I don't give Fudge much credit, but he has to be smarter than this. Here's Fudge's line of thinking: "I'm the minister of magic. However, LV is stronger than me, and I fear that to not align myself with him is pure suicide. Who cares that LV got whupped up on by a baby? He's going to be stronger this time around, and if I help him return by orchestrating everything and pulling off the greatest acting coup in history, he will surely reward me! Dumbledore, smumbledore! I'm the minister of magic, he's a school teacher. Big Deal! Harry...just a teenage whelp. Without DD he's nothing. I can't wait till the Dark Lord returns. **singing** It's a beautiful day in the neighboorhood..." To imitate Umbridge: hem-hem! No! Chris From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 2 02:48:13 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:48:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge & the newspaper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C6006D.5080009@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 131838 Chris wrote: (snip) > "I'm the minister of magic. However, LV is stronger than me, and I > fear that to not align myself with him is pure suicide. Who cares > that LV got whupped up on by a baby? He's going to be stronger this > time around, and if I help him return by orchestrating everything and > pulling off the greatest acting coup in history, he will surely > reward me! Dumbledore, smumbledore! I'm the minister of magic, he's a > school teacher. Big Deal! Harry...just a teenage whelp. Without DD > he's nothing. I can't wait till the Dark Lord returns. **singing** > It's a beautiful day in the neighboorhood..." > > To imitate Umbridge: hem-hem! No! > > Chris > Kathy writes: Don't forget that there was a worm in the MoM apple. Malfoy was close enough to Fudge to influence, to bribe, to encourage and to threaten Fudge. Fudge would not have had to break tradition and do a great deal of thinking on his own. By OOTP he could have been under Imperio or backed into a corner by Malfoy. It was quite a personality change from "Welcome, Harry" to sneaking him into court and changing the time in the hope that Dumbledore missed the whole thing. Something is definitely going on with Fudge. It will be interesting to find out how he comes to be replaced as Minister. KJ From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 03:06:19 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:06:19 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131839 > Betsy Hp wrote: > Draco should have known better, of course. It's foolish to pick on > a boy's family and *not* expect a beat-down to occur. But I'm not > sure Harry should be patted on the back for his behavior. It's > hardly heroic to beat someone with such overwhelming odds on your > side. I would not pat Harry on the back here, nor call it heroic. But I will say, "It's about time!" I am all for being the better person, walking away from a fight, trying to settle a situation peacefully. As a matter of fact, it was an integral part of my martial arts training. However, may ask I all of you who are against this sort of behavior: When is enough enough? How many prejudiced slurs must someone have to take? How many references to the financial state of a family must one endure? How many times must a kid be teased about his dead parents before he can do something about it? I'll ask another question: Who out there was bullied when they were children and were happy about it? I was bullied as a child, by one kid in particular who was two years older and a lot bigger. Then my growth spurt came, and suddenly I was bigger. Oh yeah, and I had a black belt. Amazingly enough, this kid tried it again one day. I was the better person, and tried to walk away. Then came a slur about my grandfather. It was over in two roundhouse kicks and a punch later. Now I suppose I will hear, "Oh no. You are a black-belt in Kung Fu. It was so unfair, that kid never knew what was coming. WHY would you do such a thing?" You know why? I was tired of being picked on , beat up, called names, having my normal peaceful life shattered every day when I got off of the school bus...the list goes on and on. And the sad thing is, all the things my grandmother ever told me about how I would feel worse for resorting to such behavior, was an outright lie. Feeling his nose crack under my fist felt really good. The memory of it felt even better when I learned this person had been incarcerated for rape five years later... The point is, there are those who condone violence and those who rail against it. There are those who shun Harry for such behavior, and there are those who are secretly glad he did it. There are those who for some reason feel sorry for Malfoy, and there are those who can't wait to see him get his. I fall on the side of the latter...no matter what kind of childhood Malfoy has endured, no matter whether he can be redeemed or not: you reap what you sow, and it's time to gather in the crops... Chris From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 03:15:03 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:15:03 -0000 Subject: Fudge getting replaced In-Reply-To: <42C6006D.5080009@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131840 > Kathy writes: > > Don't forget that there was a worm in the MoM apple. Malfoy was > close enough to Fudge to influence, to bribe, to encourage and to > threaten Fudge. Fudge would not have had to break tradition and do > a great deal of thinking on his own. By OOTP he could have been > under Imperio or backed into a corner by Malfoy. It was quite a > personality change from "Welcome, Harry" to sneaking him into court > and changing the time in the hope that Dumbledore missed the whole > thing. Something is definitely going on with Fudge. It will be > interesting to find out how he comes to be replaced as Minister. I for one hope this isn't true. I am getting tired of the imperius curse as plot device theme. It seems like a cop-out, and I don't see JKR employing it with Fudge. I think the assessment Dumbledore gives is right-on. It is echoed in the real-world quite a bit, as we are seeing it with our current leader. You have a position, maybe one you shouldn't have in the first place. The power goes to your head, and sooner or later reason fails you, and you are right no matter what. I think he will be replaced. There is no Voldy, There is no Voldy. Oops wait, I was wrong. Voldy's here! I don't think the WW is going to look on Fudge to kindly, and hopefully the Daily Prophet will be placed under new management as well. Chris From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 03:20:02 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge getting replaced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050702032003.54374.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131841 --- Chris wrote: (snip) > I think he [Fudge] will be replaced. There is no Voldy, > There is no Voldy. > Oops wait, I was wrong. Voldy's here! I don't think > the WW is going > to look on Fudge to kindly, and hopefully the Daily > Prophet will be > placed under new management as well. > Juli: He WILL be replaced, Jo has said (on her website) that there will be a new MoM, and it won't be Arthur Weasley, so I guess it's pretty safe to say he will be replaced, the question is by whom, I'm thinking Kingsley or Amelia Bones, but who knows. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 03:28:12 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:28:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Would an "O" for Harry vindicate Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Sarah: > > > > I work for child protective service. And Snape is abusive. > > Sorry. He's emotionally abusive (yes, there is such a thing), > > neglectful, and physically abusive towards Harry in OotP. > > Umbridge is abusive in her punishments, but she is not nearly as > > bad as Snape is. (At least in her duties as a teacher before > > she tried the imperious curse.) > > Betsy Hp: > Huh. So you would call a person who has admitted to trying to kill > a child and torture a child, and whose punishments are not complete > until blood is drawn, *less* abusive than a man who will verbally > attack a child but has never put a child in harms way and has in > fact saved at least two children's lives. It's an... *interesting* > tact to take, to say the least. I am shuddering as I type this, but I agree with you Betsy. I think Snape is a bad teacher, and a bad man, but he is an whole different animal from Umbridge. Snape is bad, but Umbridge is EEEEVIL. She'd be as bad as Voldemort if she weren't so wildly incompetent. phoenixgod2000 From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 03:45:39 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 03:45:39 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > I would not pat Harry on the back here, nor call it heroic. But I will say, "It's about time!" I am all for being the better person, walking away from a fight, trying to settle a situation peacefully. As a matter of fact, it was an integral part of my martial arts training. However, may ask I all of you who are against this sort of behavior: When is enough enough? (snip) Tonks: I do not believe in physical violence in any form. I can understand the rage that might make someone resort to that, but I still think that it is wrong. I was never bullied as a child, perhaps because I am a female and it was a different era. I have met people and children who were or are being bullied and I just don't know the answer to it. I do not understand the mentality of someone who would bully another person. I do not understand how anyone could live with themselves for doing that. Oh, yes, intellectually I can understand. I can say so and so is that way because.. But on the level of empathy and putting myself in the place of the other to understand them, I just can't get it. I can understand someone committing a *crime of passion* like a murder for finding your wife with another man, or killing someone who hurt your child. What I can't understand are people who are not in the state of rage who do terrible things to other people. I can't understand Umbridge. I just hate her. I feel guilty for hating her, but hate her I do. I wish I knew the answer to how to deal with very evil people without becoming one of them. I really believe that when we give to the other what the other gives to us, if that is returning evil for evil, it means a lose/lose situation. If someone else's behavior causes us to retaliate in kind than we have lowered ourselves to their standard and no one is the better for that. I think that when that happens somewhere in the cosmic sphere the forces of evil, by what ever concept you know them, are rejoicing. In other words, LV is happy because we have used *his* methods, and not DD's. I hope that JKR will find a way in these books to teach us all the way to live in harmony and peace. I hope she will give us all an example of how to be better people day to day. She worked for Amnesty International and must have learned something there that she can pass on to us, and I suspect that she will. Tonks_op From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 2 04:17:55 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 00:17:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clarification - Godparent Message-ID: <29.7643e2e3.2ff76f73@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131844 In a message dated 6/29/2005 1:46:40 AM Central Standard Time, spherissa at gmail.com writes: I'm not saying JKR hasn't said he didn't have one, I am unsure myself, but from what you have said it's impossible to say whether or not he did. Actually JKR did say that Harry doesn't have a godmother. Edinburgh Book Festival, Sunday, August 15, 2004. Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? No, he doesn?t. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married? Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, haven?t I? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 04:25:53 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 04:25:53 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131845 > Tonks: > I do not believe in physical violence in any form. I can > understand the rage that might make someone resort to that, but I > still think that it is wrong. I was never bullied as a child, > perhaps because I am a female and it was a different era. I have > met people and children who were or are being bullied and I just > don't know the answer to it. I think the one overriding factor that many people overlook when discussing or thinking about violence is this: balance. I am a firm believer that good and evil in their various forms are always going to exist. As far as we humans go, deep down somewhere in our DNA, the capacity for it is hidden. Yes, some people such as yourself may be immune to those thoughts and feelings, and for that I honestly commend you. For every warhawk, there is a pacifist, and this is the way it should be. To have overwhelming peace in the world is a great dream, but alas, I think it is naive to think it will ever come true. I don't condone violence in any form, but I have resorted to it twice: the time I mentioned earlier, and when I interrupted and stopped a mugger from attacking a defenseless, elderly woman. People like this will always exist, and they have to be stopped when they act... > I wish I knew the answer to how to deal with very evil people > without becoming one of them. I really believe that when we give > to the other what the other gives to us, if that is returning evil > for evil, it means a lose/lose situation. If someone else's > behavior causes us to retaliate in kind than we have lowered > ourselves to their standard and no one is the better for that. Nobody ever said we have to give back *exactly* what we receive. This is one of the reasons I disagree with the death penalty. Killing someone for killing someone does what exactly? Does it teach that killer to stop being evil? Is it all that great a detterent of crime? I think Dumbledore realizes this concept in his confrontation with LV in the ministry. Dumbledore refuses to kill LV, and says exactly "there are other ways of destroying a man." (p. 814) I look to Dumbledore as the conscience of HP. He does not kill LV, but he would do something else to destroy him. Render him powerless perhaps. When confronted with evil, and I mean pure evil...to wring our hands, ignore it, and hope it goes away...this is wrong. Evil must be stopped, no matter what the cost. I would rather see my soul go down in flames stopping evil, than to let it continue and harm others. > I think that when that happens somewhere in the cosmic sphere the > forces of evil, by what ever concept you know them, are rejoicing. > In other words, LV is happy because we have used *his* methods, and > not DD's. I both agree and disagree. I do not look at the forces of evil as having one goal, but two. The spread of evil, and the defeat of good. Yes, evil may have won one battle when reduce ourselves to being evil. However, if good wins in the end, it's just that! Good has one. Ultimately, Harry will have to murder LV, which he realized at the end of OoTP. However, in doing so, he will have stopped LV from conquering all. Yes, he commits evil through murder, but ultimately for a good reason. > > I hope that JKR will find a way in these books to teach us all the > way to live in harmony and peace. I hope she will give us all an > example of how to be better people day to day. She worked for > Amnesty International and must have learned something there that she > can pass on to us, and I suspect that she will. I think it being a better person is cumulative, sort of like Karma. You build up both good and evil acts in all their froms throughout your lifetime. Hopefully, at the end of that lifetime, the good far outweighs the bad. Chris From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 05:27:49 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 05:27:49 -0000 Subject: Violence/ was Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > To have overwhelming peace in the world is a great dream, but alas, I think it is naive to think it will ever come true. > I don't condone violence in any form, but I have resorted to it > twice: the time I mentioned earlier, and when I interrupted and > stopped a mugger from attacking a defenseless, elderly woman. People like this will always exist, and they have to be stopped when they act... > (Snip) > When confronted with evil, and I mean pure evil...to wring our > hands, ignore it, and hope it goes away...this is wrong. Evil must be stopped, no matter what the cost. I would rather see my soul go down in flames stopping evil, than to let it continue and harm others. > (snip) Ultimately, Harry will have to murder LV, which he realized > at the end of OoTP. However, in doing so, he will have stopped LV > from conquering all. Yes, he commits evil through murder, but > ultimately for a good reason. Tonks: Yes I do think that to protect someone else you have to take on an attacker, like to protect the elderly woman you mentioned. The problem is we can think about good and evil on a philosophical level and then walk out the door and bam... there is it in the flesh and what is our response to be?? And this is where I am perplexed. Would I shoot an intruder that broke into my home and when I feared that he would harm me or my family? This may shock you, but yes I would. And as long as I didn't kill him I would probably be OK with that. But the problem for me is that I know that this is the dark side of humanity. And I think that we can do better and should do better. We are the highest form of creation and yet we can not find a way to live in peace with each other. We can not find a way to treat each other with good will. That is what gets me. Humanity as a whole has fallen so short of what it could and IMO should be. Following this, I don't think that Harry just killing LV is the answer. And I think that JKR is not going to go there. As I said before, she worked for Amnesty and one can learn a lot about the evils that are inflicted on one human by another or by one society by another by working for Amnesty International. I just know in my heart that there is a better way. What I don't know is how that can play out once we leave the ivory tower of philosophical speculation and walk out into the street to meet the mugger or axe murder who may be waiting for us there. I just don't know the answer, but I know the one we have it not the best. Tonks_op From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 05:54:07 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 05:54:07 -0000 Subject: Violence/ was Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131847 Tonks: > But the problem for me is that I know that this is the dark > side of humanity. And I think that we can do better and should do > better. We are the highest form of creation and yet we can not > find a way to live in peace with each other. We can not find a way > to treat each other with good will. That is what gets me. Humanity > as a whole has fallen so short of what it could and IMO should be. I agree with you completely. This is one of the reasons I quit watching the news. I could literally not stomach another scene of what we as humans do to each other. Yes, it boggles us, as it has boggled some of the greatest thinkers and philosophers in history. And even more sad, it only seems to be getting worse. When we cannot perform the simplest acts of kindness for each other, what have we become. I could go on and on... > What I don't know is how that can play out once we leave the ivory > tower of philosophical speculation and walk out into the street to > meet the mugger or axe murder who may be waiting for us there. I > just don't know the answer, but I know the one we have it not the > best. This is one of the things that puzzles me too. Yes we can read these books, we can root for the good guy and boo the bad. We can disect and discuss every moral that is written by JKR, and talk about how things could be better. Then we shut off our monitors, and head back into the real world where life is life and violence is reality. You want to know what I hope for? That each of us takes some small lesson from this series and applies it somewhere, somehow in our daily lives, and tries to make the world a better place. When the discussing is finally done, hopefully we have made a difference, at least in someone's outlook... Chris From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 07:06:32 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:06:32 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131848 > Betsy Hp wrote: > Draco should have known better, of course. It's foolish to pick on > a boy's family and *not* expect a beat-down to occur. But I'm not > sure Harry should be patted on the back for his behavior. It's > hardly heroic to beat someone with such overwhelming odds on your > side. > Chris told his story about bullying... > Amazingly enough, this kid tried it again one day. I was > the better person, and tried to walk away. Then came a slur about my > grandfather. It was over in two roundhouse kicks and a punch later. > Now I suppose I will hear, "Oh no. You are a black-belt in Kung > Fu. It was so unfair, that kid never knew what was coming. WHY would > you do such a thing?" Valky: Like Chris, I can understand Harry's situation, odds are irrelevant, Harry and George weren't summing up their odds when they flew at Draco, they were dealing with their pain deliberatley and calculatingly caused by Draco. I wouldn't pat Harry and George on the back either, but I would give them their position fairly, and respectfully, they weren't asking for the sledging or the fight. Later I might point out to them that Draco had no chance, and given that they are compassionate children I expect they'd feel their own guilt eventually. Tonks: > I do not believe in physical violence in any form. I can understand > the rage that might make someone resort to that, but I still think > that it is wrong. I was never bullied as a child, perhaps because I > am a female and it was a different era. I have met people and > children who were or are being bullied and I just don't know the > answer to it. > I do not understand the mentality of someone who would bully another > person. I do not understand how anyone could live with themselves > for doing that. Oh, yes, intellectually I can understand. I can > say so and so is that way because.. But on the level of empathy and > putting myself in the place of the other to understand them, I just > can't get it. Valky: I have experienced in my own way some of that particular mentality. When I was a kid, I was bullied and picked on constantly for several years. One year, I was twelve, and I turned the tables, I chose myself a victim and I picked her to pieces all year. It felt good and I liked having this position, for a little while. I gave it up as quickly as I had started it, realising that it had lost me my good friends and gained me a lot of false admirers, and I couldn't really keep up the facade anyhow. I may have paid for it a bit since then, but in any case it gives me no pride to know that I did it. Later in my life I have looked back at this time in my life to gain insight into many things, and learn from the experience. One question I asked myself might go a long way to answering your question Tonks. Whe I asked myself why I picked that particular girl for my victim I remember clearly the day I picked her and exactly what I had felt. It was jealousy, I chose her because she had something to her that I wished for myself and couldn't have. So I reflected my insecurity right back out at her. After a while I'd do it out of habit, and it took a while to realise that It was no longer about my insecurity anymore, in fact my little insecurity was starting to creep its way back into my mind despite that I was using this outlet. Lucky for me it defied logic to continue bullying, and I stopped. So the mentality of my bullying, it started out with some anger based on my own insecurities, it made the insecurities go away for a time, and then they came back and I had both - my bullying and my insecurities. Since I had started one to get rid of the other - didn't want either really - and now had both - it was illogical and I let it all go. Maybe the mentality of the continuing bully is illogical? From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 2 09:29:11 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:29:11 +0100 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please Message-ID: <001d01c57ee8$8278e280$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131849 As we're all aware, HBP comes out two weeks today. One disadvantage I have as a blind person is that I won't get to listen to the book until 25th August, which is when the UK audio version comes out. By this time, discussions will have started within this and other groups, thereby spoiling it for me before I get the chance to read it. Does anyone know of any websites, please, where I can read the book when it comes out - only read it, not downloading? Derek From cottell at dublin.ie Sat Jul 2 11:07:37 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:07:37 -0000 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: <001d01c57ee8$8278e280$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > Does anyone know of any websites, please, where I can read the book > when it comes out - only read it, not downloading? > > Derek I don't know if this will help, but www.bookshare.org will have it available on the afternoon of the 16th. >From their site: "Bookshare.org Will Have Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Available on its Publication Date! Continuing on our tradition of making high-interest books available to our subscribers the day of their release, Bookshare.org is pleased to announce that we will have Harry Potter and the Half- Blood Prince available on the day of its release, Saturday, July 16. Bookshare.org staff will purchase a copy of the book that morning. Our team of in-house volunteers will scan it, OCR it, give it a quick validation check, then we will upload it to our site and make it available in DAISY and BRF formats that same afternoon." Hope this helps Mus From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 11:29:20 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:29:20 -0000 Subject: Filk: 16 going on 17 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131852 16 Going on 17 >From the Sound of Music by Rodgers and Hammerstein. A duet for the Smeltings Wardrobe Person and the Smeltings Nurse. The Smeltings Wardrobe Person speaks to the Smeltings Nurse about Dudley's size. Reviewing Dudley's measurements, (s)he sings: This lad, my good nurse, has surpassed the gauge Where knickers are to tight on. This lad, my dear nurse, has now reached the stage Where he must start to lighen. NURSE: To lighten. SWP: (looking at chart) Wrist is 16, going on 17. Hips are 5 score, I think. It seem this lad has had just a tad Too much stuff to eat and drink. Chest is 60, going on 70. Waist is an 89. We are aware his folks must take care To moniter how they dine. Totally unprepared are we To clothe him once again. There's not a size in stock, as he Has grown gargantuan. We need help from his mum and father, Telling him what to do. You, good nurse, must write them a letter. I'll leave that to you. (musical interlude as nurse thinks of a tactful way to word things) NURSE: (written in letter) Re: Your Dudley, Ma'am and Sir Dursley. His gut needs a reprieve. No crisps or treats, and lay off the sweets. It's good for him, I believe. Meals are three, not 16 or 17. Snacktime is at a close. Lettuce is dandy, but no more candy, Cel'ry instead of those. Totally unprepared are you To pen a diet plan. That is why I must write to you For I know what to ban. He needs someone older and wiser Dishing out his tofu. I am sure, as his loving parents, He'll depend on you. Ginger, who had to get out the tape measure to get an idea of what numbers to use. NO, I DID NOT USE MY OWN. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 2 13:03:16 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 06:03:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: <001d01c57ee8$8278e280$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: <004b01c57f06$6a372f60$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131853 As we're all aware, HBP comes out two weeks today. One disadvantage I have as a blind person is that I won't get to listen to the book until 25th August, which is when the UK audio version comes out. By this time, discussions will have started within this and other groups, thereby spoiling it for me before I get the chance to read it. Does anyone know of any websites, please, where I can read the book when it comes out - only read it, not downloading? Derek Sherry now: Derek, are you in the UK? There are sites here in the US that will have the book either scanned in or recorded and available in daisy format by a day or two aft the release. There are already volunteers set up to scan and to record the daisy format. I'm assuming you are in the UK, if you're waiting till late august for the audio book. Can you check with RNIB to see if there is any service that will have the book scanned onto a web site right away? If not, if you are in the US, check out: www.bookshare.org and or www.rfbd.org Unfortunately, people outside the US can't participate in book share, because of some sort of copyright concern. I am not sure about RFBD. I hope this helps. Sherry From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 13:50:26 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:50:26 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131854 I was re-reading COS and paid particular attention to Harry in Tom Riddles diary. (All canon from US Hardcover). "Then, as though he (Tom) had suddenly reached a decision, he hurried off, Harry gliding noiselessy behind him. They didn't see another person until they reached the entrance hall, when a tall wizard with long, sweeping auburn hair and a beard called to Riddle from the marble staircase. "What are you doing, wandering around this late, Tom?" Harry gaped at the wizard. He was none other than a fifty-year- younger Dumbledore. "I had to see the headmaster, sir," said Riddle. "Well, hurry of to bed," said Dumbledore, giving Riddle **exactly the kind of penetrating stare Harry knew so well**. "Best not to roam the corridors these days. Not since..." He sighed heavily, bade Riddle good night, and strode off." (page 245) Questions: 1. Is this same penetrating stare the one used in Legilimency? 2. If not...the next questions are moot. 3. If DD was using Legilimency, then I have one more big question: 4. IS DD A BETTER LEGILIMENS THAN TOM RIDDLE IS AN OCCLUMENS? Let's make a couple of assumptions about the above passage. Let's assume that DD was using legilimency and TR was using Occulmency. This raises some very interesting questions in my opinion. 5. If DD is better, what did he learn? 6. If he learned that Tom Riddle was opening the chamber of secrets, why did he not act? 7. If 5th year Tom Riddle is a better occlumens than DD is a legilimens, what implications would that have for the wizarding world? Later in the book, when Harry meets TR in the chamber, we read the following exchange between Harry and Tom: "(Tom) Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as a gamekeeper. Yes, I think Dumbledore might have guessed...Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did..." "I bet Dumbledore **saw right through you**" said Harry, his teeth gritted. "Well, he certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after Hagrid was expelled," Riddle said *carelessly*. "I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still in school..." This passage implies that DD may have learned something from Tom that night on the stair, but what? 8. If he learned that Tom opened the chamber, why did he do nothing more than keep a eye on him? 9. Why did he not turn in Tom Riddle when LV started wreaking havoc? 10. Why did JKR use the word "carelessly" about Tom telling Harry DD kept an annoyingly close watch on him? Why was that a careless thing for him to say? 11. Or, was Tom a better Occlumens and DD didn't really learn anything but just had "a hunch" that something was amiss? Julie From lhuntley at fandm.edu Sat Jul 2 14:07:08 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:07:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge Vs. Voldemort WAS: Snape's abuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131855 Phoenixgod: > I am shuddering as I type this, but I agree with you Betsy. I think > Snape is a bad teacher, and a bad man, but he is an whole different > animal from Umbridge. Snape is bad, but Umbridge is EEEEVIL. She'd > be as bad as Voldemort if she weren't so wildly incompetent. Umbridge, incompetent? And Voldemort *isn't*?! Now, I'm not going to argue that she's a master tactitian, but I hardly think she deserves the label of being more incompetent than He Who Cannot Kill A Boy He's Got Tied To A Gravestone And Surrounded By Death Eaters. The Quill of Doom was an *excellent* tool for cowing and shaming troublemakers. The IS was a brilliant move on her part -- nobody polices kids better than other kids. Sending Dementors to Privet Drive nearly *did* work, and she did it without anyone in the Ministry getting the faintest whiff of it. Also, she was at least smart enough to guess Harry's plan when he snuck into her office to see if Sirius was at Grimmauld Place. The difference between Umbridge and Voldemort, IMO, is not one of absolute "evilness" (because they are both so evil -- but in such different ways -- that it is hard to judge which is worse). Nor is it a question of competency, really, although I think Umbridge is *far* more capable than Voldy has shown himself to be. The difference is motivation. Voldemort wants to rule the world; Umbridge just wants everyone to think and act the way she believes they should. True, she is willing to go to shocking lengths to assure her world view is THE world view, but her goal is mostly bureaucratic, when you get down to it. She's power-hungry, sure, but in a completely different way than LV. She *loves* the structure of the government -- manipulating people and laws as she sees fit is what she does best. Voldy, on the other hand, would destroy the Ministry outright, and set himself up as dictator. The most amazing thing about Umbridge is that she really is a *dismal* witch in terms of magical power. Unlike LV, she's hasn't got the advantage of being one of the most powerful wizards in the world, and *still* she manages to be much more effective than him in executing her diabolical plans. You gotta admire that. Laura From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jul 2 14:16:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:16:23 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131856 Tonks wrote: > > Following this, I don't think that Harry just killing LV is the > answer. And I think that JKR is not going to go there. As I said > before, she worked for Amnesty and one can learn a lot about the > evils that are inflicted on one human by another or by one society > by another by working for Amnesty International. I just know in my > heart that there is a better way. What I don't know is how that can > play out once we leave the ivory tower of philosophical speculation > and walk out into the street to meet the mugger or axe murder who > may be waiting for us there. I just don't know the answer, but I > know the one we have it not the best. > Well, okay. That is certainly a possibility that JKR doesn't want Harry to "just kill" Voldemort. In fact, I would say it's almost a certainty, in that Harry won't go up to Voldemort and say "Hi Voldie. Oh, by the way Avada Kedavra!" Any killing of Voldemort will certainly be more of a dramatic situation. But will Harry kill Voldemort at all? And after all, what difference does it really make HOW he kills Voldy? Avada Kedavra, Magnum .357, stupefy spell and dropping him out the window, filling him with love and watching him melt like the Wicked Witch of the West, all of it is ultimately the same. Voldy will be dead and Harry will have killed him. Now, perhaps a more interesting question is will Harry have to kill anyone else? This is a war, after all, and Harry is a prime target. It is very plausible that Harry might have to kill in self-defense long before the final confrontation with Voldy (and indeed, he already has, if not deliberately). I could easily see that the big hook at the end of HBP, the one that "some won't like" is that Harry will be forced to kill someone, perhaps Malfoy, Sr., while protecting himself and Dumbledore, or perhaps after Dumbledore's death. Thus he will have the summer to stew on that, and to prepare himself for what is to come. In fact, that would provide a great deal of symmetry, wouldn't it? At the end of OOTP, Harry sees death inflicted on a loved one. At the end of HBP, Harry inflicts death on someone else's loved one. What an interesting set up that would be! Draco melting down in murderous rage in the wake of his father's death. Dumbledore possibly gone. And Snape, what about Snape? He certainly would have no scruples about killing in such a situation. Indeed, can't you see him now, standing nearby with his "cover" blown screaming at Harry, "Kill him you weak-willed brat!" So the relationships grow more tangled. Draco bound to Harry by hatred over the fact that Harry has killed his father. Harry's hate of Snape now intensified by yet more guilt. Snape's hatred of Harry now matched with equal parts cold satisfaction (the brat is capable of killing) and dread (the brat is capable of KILLING). Oh, yes, what a delicious ending for HBP that would be! Lupinlore From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 15:17:26 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:17:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse (Re: Forgiving Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131857 Sarah wrote: > > > > > > I work for child protective service. And Snape is > abusive. > > > Sorry. He's emotionally abusive (yes, there is such a > thing), > > > neglectful, and physically abusive towards Harry in > OotP. > > > Umbridge is abusive in her punishments, but she is not nearly > as > > > bad as Snape is. (At least in her duties as a teacher > before > > > she tried the imperious curse.) > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: A hard life does not generally make one a especially nice person, and since we are using our own lives and work as examples, I'll use my own personal Snape as an example. I am reminded of my own grandmother, my fathers mother. She was very much a Snape. Lets just say I was Harry, and I will say Granny was Snape. We disliked each other, and, we had to live together since my father did not want her to live alone. So, I was forced to live with a woman that our personalities did not Match well. We argued, we fought, she sometimes said nasty mean things to me, that hurt me, and I never understood her. My age by the way at the time was around 8-15 years. She favored my older cousin, since she was the first grandchild born, she was prejudice to a degree also, She used to complain about me playing with the children from the few houses near us. Lets put it this way, there were not many people to play with because we lived out of town, there were very few children, probably 5 other houses that were close by, and I had only one choice in my childish wants of playmates. Her worry was, what will people think when they ride by and see me with all these kids who were different. To me, I though she was just being cruel to me, and not wanting me to have friends, later, I realize she was just worried that I would have a bad reputation or though bad on by others.... I look back on her now, with much regret. I was just a kid, and basicly did not see the forest for the tree's. I found out a lot of things about her when she died. That she had a terribly hard life, her mother married her off at 13-15 years old, I can't remember exact age. She married her off to an older man, and while married to this man she worked hard in a factory, and had three children by this man. People I never knew about till she died. But you see, that is the blindness of a child, we never really look into these things, because as children most of us are self centered. I found out that one day, my grandmother came home to find her old man of a husband in bed with her so called mother.....upon that revelation, my grandmother left, but, being a young girl back then, on your own, she could not care for her children, so, she had to give them up....to my memory, she had to give them up to...Child Protective Servies, the father did not want them...Imagine that. Even after my grandmother was married again, to a good man, she was not allowed to have her children back...needless to say, two of those children still never forgave there mother. She had 4 children by the new man she married, who was my grandfather, the oldes son died in a car crash, this was before I was born, my grandfather also died before I was born, so I never knew him. ...Needless to say, my grandmother had a terribly hard life before I was even born....yet, I never really knew all the facts about her, and judged her thinking she was simply being mean to me because she did not like me....which in the end, maybe in some way she didn't like me...but, we came from very different backgrounds. We were entirly two different generations of people growing up in the same house, with vastly different life experiences, no wonder we clashed...strong willed people tend to do that. So, to put it plainly, I wish I had known all this and realized all these things about her, I may have viewed her differently at the time, when we argued, instead of being a self centered little kid. If I had understood her, maybe I would have seen her actions differently, maybe I would have been able to forgive her easier, and understand the point she was trying to make...or maybe I could have just sat down and talked with her about things I wish I had now. I suppose its easy to judge people though...when you don't know a thing about them. So, let me try and examine the real Snape. Teach Potions Class involves, 11-17 teenagers, and while we all gota love kids, we all don't have to live at a school and teach at a school filled with little wonderful kiddies. If you are a sorta person who might have disliked teenagers when you were a teenager, odds are you still dislike them to a certain degree. Now, you might ask, why be a teacher then. Perhaps, Snape, had few options open to him at the time, I'm sure after Voldemorts fall, not many people were willing to hire a ex death eater..and I understand that, it is not a known fact that he was a death eater. JUST like any society, city, or town, I'm sure there were rumors about him. (Though, the wizarding world don't seem to keep in touch with each other, It almost seems to me people don't know each other half the time). I'm still sure it might have been difficult for him to find a job He sounds so young....it seems quite strange to me that all these people were so young, it is almost easy to see how he could have been led to join Voldemort, I mean, why would he follow James and Sirius and be on their side, if like in the pensive scene he was tortured by them? Would he not follow the people who even though leading him astray may have been the only people to show him any kind of friendship? I have also been thinking of something else: I was thinking, why does Snape care what Harry, Neville, Ron, etc do in his potion's class. Why does he in fact, Correct them, tell them what they are doing wrong, try to make them see what mistakes they are making. Like in one episode where he tells Harry to write him an essay on why he did the potion wrong? WHY does he care, why not ignore them when they screw up, it seems, if he didn't care if they did good in his class, he would never try to be involved in what they are doing. He seems actually to neglect his Slytherin students....meh...maybe I am just not seeing something I should. But, why does he care if Harry gets it right? Even if he is doing it in a snarky way and being rude to them...why should he care?? One would think, if he was on Voldemort's side, he would want Harry to do badly in potions and not make him write essays on why he screwed up...meh..anyway. I myself believe, Rowling put Umbridge in not only to further the story, but to make a point, about Snape...I could be wrong, but I think she was actually showing us what an actual bad teacher is. Now, I find myself defending Snape again, but, I think in this case it is because, there is no way I believe anyone could consider Umbridge a better teacher or person than Snape, but I guess I've been proven wrong by the above comment. May I remind you that she went out of her way to take over the school, and make everyone do what she wanted, no matter the cost of life, appearance, or otherwise. I have YET to see Snape try to take over the school, talk bad about Dumbledore, or talk bad about McGonagall, of course we are only seeing him through Harry's eyes, but when they are around he seems submissive to there will, he does not try to get over them, now, perhaps if he had the power Umbridge had, with the Ministry behind him, we might have seen a different Snape...But that is comparing apples to oranges. He wasn't, he has been loyal to Dumbledore at least, In My own opinion. I am drawn back to the scene where he shows his dark mark to Fudge, It would not have served Voldemort for him to do so, Voldie wanted to keep his return private till he had garnered more power. Snape revealing his dark mark to Fudge is publicly undermining Voldemorts desires to stay hidden till the right time...and also it was putting Snape himself in danger, Fudge could have easily brought Snape to trial again if he wanted, their was no reason Snape had to show that tatoo off, Dumbledore didn't turn to him and say, Show him Snape... Umbridge was out to hurt Dumbledore and the school from the begining, she was out to hurt Harry, but she was pretending she was doing it for the better of everyone. Snape on the other hand has not really made it a secret that he doesn't like Harry, Obviously Dumbledore knows they both have a strong Dislike for each other. I will submit that Dumbledore wanted them to work together on Occlumency for more than just Harry learning it, I think he wanted to put them together one on one, I think he wanted to try and get them to work together. That is another reason he is so disappointed it didn't work out, because he though maybe if Snape saw what a sad life Harry had, he might gain some empathy for the boy. And who is to say that he hasn't, sometimes it takes a while for people to realize things, maybe Snape needs time to digest what he has seen. We all know he comes to the wrong ideas about Harry, I still dont' think he really realizes how bad of a life harry had with his muggle relitives and I think him seeing that, may eventually work on his mind, if not publicly for him, at least privatly. We just don't see the adults in without Harry around, we really don't know how they act, or what their personal thoughs are, we see Harry, we really don't see them. I also believe that as some have suggested, we can not JUDGE these people by our standards. I can't see taking a point of view that would not apply to the wizarding world and tossing it on them, it just doesn't work for me. It appears to me they don't have a child protective services in the wizarding world. It appears to me they let their orphans like Tom Riddle live in a muggle orphanages, I do NOT understand why this happens, but it does. So, to say well, Snape is abusive...I believe obviously the whole wizarding community is abusive if you want to take that point of view. Maybe Snape has not had anyone show him any kind of loyalty or love his whole life, maybe no one has ever looked out for him. But, oh, we can all judge these people with our own standars, again, we are the child looking in on this situation, we are in Harry's head. Perhaps we should view Snape as someone who is much like Harry. Harry feels he has to look out for himself, that is what he has had to do most of his life. No one cared about him, his muggle family sure didn't. But, generally, is that not how life is? One has to look out for one's self, if one had no family, or if one's family does not care for you, then, you are pretty much on your own. Maybe Professor Snape had to look out for himself, maybe his friends were not as kind as Harry's, and helped protect him. It seems being in the wizarding world and looking out for one's self, might mean a rough life. Being that the wizarding world is not a kind place, I would say, if he has in fact had a rough life, and has not had protection to speak of, then Isn't it easy to say, Dumbledore is the first person that might actually care about him. Everyone keeps saying he was a death eater, he did terrible things, yes, but maybe at some point one has to forgive, as Fake Moody said to snape. Dumbledore is a forgiving man, so...maybe we should try to be like Dumbledore...instead of being unyelding like Snape. Now, this is all...just thinking on my part, But, its quite easy to just say he's bad, but we don't have the facts about him as yet. We don't know his past, we can't really judge him yet till we know. If say, Harry find out things about Snape, that will change his opinion, it might change how he feels and reacts to Snape....much like how I changed in my opinion on my grandmother...meh, who knows really. KarentheUnicorn From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sat Jul 2 15:24:03 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:24:03 -0000 Subject: DL vs LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131858 BG writes: While re-reading and re-listening to the audios, one thing keeps coming up with no answer, why do the only the Death Eaters call LV the DL and why does DD use Tom's given name when he is face to face with him? IMHO, I believe that the DL has taken over many men throughout the centuries and his followers are called Death Eaters. Death may come to the human but the DL will live again when the next human through his unwise choices becomes the next DL - a possession? Maybe but, more likely the DL is merely the most evil wizard of the time. LV went one step further when he sought ways to become immortal or maybe he became immortal by giving his soul over to the DL (back to possession). I think that Harry will vanquish the DL and Tom Riddle will become a mere human wizard again and die after his soul is saved through some effort by Harry. But the DL will seek another soul and he will return someday, somewhere.... From labmystc at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 15:36:40 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:36:40 -0000 Subject: Umbridge Vs. Voldemort WAS: Snape's abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131859 > Laura: Umbridge, incompetent? And Voldemort *isn't*?! Now, I'm not > going to argue that she's a master tactitian, but I hardly think > she deserves the label of being more incompetent than He Who Cannot > Kill A Boy He's Got Tied To A Gravestone And Surrounded By Death > Eaters. LV seems to be one of those evil types who likes to prance around, play with his victims, and try too hard to prove he is evil. I will agree that generally Umbridge comes to the point more quickly, but there is one instance where she doesn't: When they were in her office and she was deciding whether or not to use crucio on Harry when discovering Snape was out of Veritaserum. She took to long in deciding, which gave Hermione time to think of a plan. > Unlike LV, she's hasn't got the advantage of being one of the most > powerful wizards in the world, and *still* she manages to be much > more effective than him in executing her diabolical plans. You > gotta admire that. I admire her diabolical planning only as far as when dealing with kids. When it comes to adults, she slips a little bit, and lets her love of authority and prejudice override her judgment. She underestimates Dumbledore's intelligence and quick thinking in the scene in his office. She tries to subdue a haf-giant with stunning spells. Then she manages to alienate and anger an entire herd of centaurs. Not very witty on her part. I like my diabolically evil antagonists to be able to think quick on their feet. LV stumbles when he possesses Harry in the ministry to induce DD to kill him. However, this was a good plan and quick thinking on his part. He simply underestimated Harry once again. Chris From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 2 16:19:53 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:19:53 -0000 Subject: Godmother and maid of honor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anders217" wrote: > We hear lots about Sirius being Harry's godfather, and he was > the best man at Lily & James' wedding. Why do we never hear > anything about who was Lily's maid of honor, or whether or not > Harry has a godmother? Was Petunia Lily's wedding attendant? Jen: We know there's not a Godmother according to JKR. Melissa in message 131844 offered the quote from the Edinburgh Book Festival where JKR explained that the christening was a rushed affair. But as for Lily's possible friends, and maid of honor, the two who jump out as being approximately the same age are Alice Longbottom and Hestia Jones (from the Advance Guard). We know for sure Alice and Lily had much in common, both working to defeat LV, both newly married with almost identical-age sons. Hestia's description of being 'pink-cheeked and black-haired' gives us little to go on, except she did request to be part of the Advance Guard, presumably to see Harry--was it because he's the son of her deceased friend? Maybe it's just a vain hope on my part, but I could see someone coming forward to explain more about Lily's life to Harry. What we know so far seems woefully inadequate. JKR is definitely prolonging the big reveal about Lily's eyes, but perhaps the rest of her life falls under the category of 'adds nothing to the plot'. Jen From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sat Jul 2 17:01:01 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:01:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131861 Julie: I was re-reading COS and paid particular attention to Harry in Tom Riddles diary. (All canon from US Hardcover). 1. Is this same penetrating stare the one used in Legilimency? Tiffany: I think it is. Julie: 3. If DD was using Legilimency, then I have one more big question: 4. IS DD A BETTER LEGILIMENS THAN TOM RIDDLE IS AN OCCLUMENS? Let's make a couple of assumptions about the above passage. Let's assume that DD was using legilimency and TR was using Occulmency. This raises some very interesting questions in my opinion. 5. If DD is better, what did he learn? Tiffany: I think maybe DD did try legilimency, but he did say he is only a good enough legilimens to be able to guess when someone is lying. It is possible that, if TR was using Occlumency successfully, DD couldn't get anything out of him. Maybe he happened to try legilimency on hagrid off screen, and he knew hagrid was telling the truth. Tiffany From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 17:37:03 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 17:37:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131862 Betsy: > I would also add, that though Snape makes the students fear and hate > *him*, McGonagall seems to favor manipulating the student she's > punishing into being hated by their peers. In PS/SS she causes > Harry and Hermione and Neville to be hated by practically the entire > school. Even quidditch becomes an ordeal for Harry, and Hermione > stops answering questions in class. (SS scholastic paperback ed. > p.244-245) > > McGonagall takes a similar tactic in PoA when she sets Neville apart > from his housemates by refusing to give him the password to the > Gyffindor dorms. (PoA scholastic hardback ed. p.271) Neville isn't > *hated* but he's certainly made an object of public disdain. And > again, his entire house is made aware of just what an idiot he is. > > I would argue that when it comes to true emotional abuse, McGonagall > could teach Snape a few tricks. She's certainly got a knack for > making a child miserable beyond her classroom door. > Alla: Erm... I will agree with you that putting Neville on the spot in PoA was not a kind thing to do, but really that could at least be explained by her being upset that supposed murderer now in the castle because of Neville. Again, I am not justifying it, but I can count Minerva's bad moments as a teacher on the fingers of my one hand. Snape on the other hand... Speaking about putting child on the spot... I see no justification whatsoever of Snape reading Rita's article in class in GoF. Talk about putting child on the spot simply because one feels like it, IMO. Oh, and about PS/SS. I absolutely disagree that Minerva's goal was to make Trio hated by their peers. She caught them being in the place they were not supposed to be at night. She punished them. Oh, and she did not forget to punish dear Draco too, which to me shows her being strict, but also fair ( in general at least), contrary to someone else. No, if I were to judge by "totality of circumstances", Minerva is very far from Snape in the emotional abuse department. Just my opinion, Alla. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 17:58:30 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 17:58:30 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131863 Lupinlore: edit... But will Harry kill Voldemort at all? And after all, what difference does it really make HOW he kills Voldy? Avada Kedavra, Magnum .357, stupefy spell and dropping him out the window, filling him with love and watching him melt like the Wicked Witch of the West, all of it is ultimately the same. Voldy will be dead and Harry will have killed him. Kemper now: The difference is intent. Is Harry aware that filling LV with love will kill LV? If he's not aware this, then it was an accident. If he is aware, then it's murder. I don't want to see Harry become a murderer. And Harry merely taking LV's life would not satisfy me, I admit... It's too tidy of a wrap up. What then..?, 'Harry left King's Cross. No one was there to greet him. He walked to his new home in London wondering if he was a murderer or a hero.' If Harry accidently kills LV, I think Harry can live with that much easier, like Dorothy seemed unshaken with the whole water bucket incident. Dorothy didn't intend to murder the WWW Back to Lupinlore: Edit ... Harry [may] be forced to kill someone, perhaps Malfoy, Sr., while protecting himself and Dumbledore, or perhaps after Dumbledore's death. Thus he will have the summer to stew on that, and to prepare himself for what is to come. In fact, that would provide a great deal of symmetry, wouldn't it? At the end of OOTP, Harry sees death inflicted on a loved one. At the end of HBP, Harry inflicts death on someone else's loved one. Kemper again: More realistically, since Harry has that saving people thing, Harry would save Draco from Lucius or LV. While this doesn't provide any symmetry, it does provide with an example of a thing much worse than death... Draco living with realization that his father is willing to have Draco killed/sacrificed, the father who he brags about not infrequently, the father who he discovers doesn't love him and never has.... what deception and betrayal Draco will have realized... Now that seems like it would be worse than death for Draco, and it's better for my need to see Draco turned into a psychological gigantic slug without there ever have been thrown a curse or hex. Ahh, now that's sweet, yumminess. Kemper From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 18:02:08 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:02:08 -0000 Subject: Luna Lovegood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131864 I noticed that in the months leading up to the July 16 release date of HBP, JKR has told us precious little about Luna Lovegood and her upcoming role in the Half Blood Prince. I have posted several times on this site as well as on my own potterplots group some possible scenarios relating to Luna (for example, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/message/11 for a detailed analysis of why I believe that Luna will play a much larger role in HBP than previously. There is also a new poll there if you want to register your opinion as to what might happen.) Now that the release date is less than two weeks away, has anyone here have any opinion as to the future role of Luna in the series? Does anyone see any significance in her and her dad being at the Quidditch World Cup in GOF and witnessing the Dark Mark? curious as always tinglinger From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 18:16:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:16:01 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > I was re-reading COS ...edited... > > Questions: > 1. Is this same penetrating stare the one used in Legilimency? > 2. ... > 3. If DD was using Legilimency,... then 4. IS DD A BETTER LEGILIMENS > THAN TOM RIDDLE IS AN OCCLUMENS? > > Let's ...assume that DD was using legilimency and TR was using > Occulmency. ... > 5. If DD is better, what did he learn? > 6. If he learned that Tom Riddle was opening the chamber of secrets, > why did he not act? > 7. If 5th year Tom Riddle is a better occlumens than DD is a > legilimens, what implications would that have for the wizarding > world? > > ...snipped passage... > > This (snipped) passage implies that DD may have learned something > from Tom that night on the stair, but what? > 8. If he learned that Tom opened the chamber, why did he do nothing > more than keep a eye on him? > 9. Why did he not turn in Tom Riddle when LV started wreaking havoc? > 10. Why did JKR use the word "carelessly" about Tom telling Harry DD > kept an annoyingly close watch on him? Why was that a careless > thing for him to say? > > 11. Or, was Tom a better Occlumens and DD didn't really learn > anything but just had "a hunch" that something was amiss? > > > Julie bboyminn: First, you are assuming that Tom Riddle (aka:Voldemort) is skilled at Occlumency. The books only tell us he is skilled at Legilimency, Second, you are assuming that a highly intelligent, old and wise, experienced teacher like Dumbledore needs to use Legilimency to tell if a student is lying. As your own experience with parents and teachers should tell you, teens are not as good at lying as they would like to make themselves believe, so I think in 99% of the cases, parents, teachers, or Dumbledore don't need to rely on magic to determine the presence of falsehoods. That said, I suspect that Dumbledore MAY have probed Tom just deep enough to determine that Tom wasn't telling him everything, and wasn't being completely truthful. But those who are skilled at Legilimen have an ethic obligation. They can't go around probing the mind of every person they meet for little or no reason other than the fact that they can. A persons thought are very private and personal, and should therefore be respected. So again, I think Dumbledore may have raise his Legilimens /radar/ to the level of intuition, and sensed that Riddle wasn't being completely truthful, but I really don't think at the time and place, he probed deeply into Riddle's mind, and extracted detailed information. Next, and finally, we don't really know how Legilimency works. Yes, we have an overview of what it accomplishes, but we don't have the deep internal details of it's nature and mechanics. Can a skilled Legilimens read a persons mind, can they sort through it the way a muggle sorts through a set of encyclopedias? Or, is it more random? Or, is it more intuitive? You can probe deep enough to know the truth or lie of that matter, but it's not like selectively watching a video. Further, in the same vein, I suspect it's somewhat easy and fast to probe deep enough to get a quick sense of truth or falsehood, but to probe deep enough to get detailed, logically consistent, well sorted information takes asserted deep concentration and time; in other words, far more than a quick glance. I certainly can't prove that last part, but the point I'm actually making is that with so little information of the details of Legilimency, we really don't know it's internal workings. I think there is some truth in the idea that Dumbledore used some degree of Legilimens, but we see nothing to indicate that Tom Riddle block his efforts with Occlumency, nor do we have informtion indicating that Tom/Voldemort is particularl skilled at Occlumency. I suspect he has some very basic skills in this area, Tom is, afterall, a very powerful, skilled, experienced, and highly educated wizard, and logically, Occlumency would be a skill that would serve him, but, again, we have no indications in the books that I can remember, that indicate that Tom/Voldie has anything more that a reasonable and basic working knowledge of Occlumency. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 2 18:26:07 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:26:07 -0000 Subject: Godmother and maid of honor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anders217" wrote: > > We hear lots about Sirius being Harry's godfather, and he was > > the best man at Lily & James' wedding. Why do we never hear > > anything about who was Lily's maid of honor, or whether or not > > Harry has a godmother? Was Petunia Lily's wedding attendant? > > Jen: We know there's not a Godmother according to JKR. Melissa in > message 131844 offered the quote from the Edinburgh Book Festival > where JKR explained that the christening was a rushed affair. > > But as for Lily's possible friends, and maid of honor, the two who > jump out as being approximately the same age are Alice Longbottom and Hestia Jones (from the Advance Guard). I personally think that if Lily had had a best friend as close to her as James was to Sirius then that friend would have been at Harry's Christening and stood as his Godmother, in the same was that they got Sirius there. There is no necessisty to have any bridesmaids at a wedding in the same was that you have to have a best man. A best man has a role in the actual ceremony, to hand the rings to the vicar/priest for blessing, bridesmaids are just there to look pretty! There was no sign of bridesmaids in the Potter wedding photos therefore I think that Lily, having fallen out with her sister, did not have any really close female friends. Karen From kreneeb at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 21:16:37 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:16:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131867 I posted this over at Mugglenet... but I would like to hear what everybody here has to say... that and the fact that the release date for HbP is coming closer.... I want to get my theories out there, in case I happen to be right. ;) Everybody is saying that Harry will end up with Ginny, Hermione, or Luna. I don't think it's going to be one of these three girls. First of all, there really hasn't been any real concrete clues about any of these girls, regardless of what other shippers might say. In my personal opinion Hermione and Ginny are just, well, easy. I would think of it as a cop-out if Harry were to end up with one of them. I mean, best friend or best friend's little sister? I give JKR's imagination much more credit than that. Luna? I just can't see her in a relationship with anyone, more or less a person with Harry's temperament. Don't get me wrong, though. I adore these girls. I just don't see them with Harry. I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I know she isn't a major player yet, but I think that JKR has introduced Susan the way she has introduced a million other seemingly "unimportant" things. And with Susan being more prominent in the fifth book than all the other ones, I think JKR has made way for her to be even more prominent in the sixth book. If Susan is just to be a name at the Sorting ceremony, why "up" her in the fifth book? I think she is going to be important in some way, so why not as a love interest? Let's take a moment to look at this ship. First, let's look at what we know about Susan. We know that she is from Hufflepuff, which implies that she is hard-working, and is "just and loyal." She also had an aunt, uncle, and cousins die by one of Voldemort's Death Eaters. We also have a quote from JKR saying that Voldemort killed her grandparents. Another aunt of Susan's, who is the head of the department of Magical Law Enforcement, was a "fair" person who resided over Harry's trial (next minister, anyone?). Susan joined the DA during the first DA meeting. We can gather that she has a great relationship with her aunt, and she isn't a regular "Lavender." I think this is an awful lot of background that we have for a person who is going to be only a "minor" character. Notice how both Harry and Susan have lost family members to Voldemort. Susan is the only other student, mentioned in canon, that has. This is something that neither Luna, Hermione, nor Ginny have in common with Harry. It could be a bonding point between he and Susan. Then there is this quote: Susan Bones, who had an uncle, aunt, and cousins who had all died at the hand of one of the ten, said miserably during Herbology that she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry. "And I don't know how you stand it, it's horrible." This is the quote that got me hooked on Harry/Susan. In two scenes in OotP featuring Susan, one is all about her telling Harry that she knows how he feels. Why did JKR make it a point to mention that Susan knows how Harry feels when for four books she has been nothing but a name at a Sorting ceremony? Is this a foreshadowing of what's to come? After all, Harry/Hermione, Harry/Luna, and Harry/Ginny shippers all state how their girls "know how Harry feels." What about the second scene with Susan, during the first DA meeting at the Hog's Head? The meeting wasn't going particularly well at first. Zacharias Smith's comments were making the other students doubt Harry's DADA abilities. But then Susan spoke up, asking about Harry's Patronus and reminding the other students that he was good at DADA. Had JKR not put her there, who knows where the DA could have gone. Also, Susan's and Harry's conversation was all about Harry's Patronus. Why don't we know what Susan's Patronus is? Was there a reason this was left out? You would think that JKR would mention it during the DA class where they are all learning how to conjure a Patronus. I expected at least a comment from Susan, since the Patronus charm was what got her "introduced" to Harry, after all. It's just curious to me, very curious indeed. Then there are Susan's friends. Does anyone else find it odd that while we have the DoM six, there is *another* group of six -- Ernie, Justin, Hannah, Susan, Terry and Anthony -- that are always hanging around each other. Their biggest moment is on the train ride home when they stop Draco from ambushing Harry. Could this just be coincidence? I also find it curious that we don't know who killed her family. Why was this kept out? Why say "...who was killed by one of the ten..." and not "...who was killed by so-and-so?" It seems obvious that it was purposely kept out. It just seems to me that JKR has put Susan under our radar on purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if JKR does one of her famous "plot twists" and has us all thinking that it's going to be one of Harry/Ginny, Harry/Hermione, Harry/Luna, and then have Susan come swoopin' down on her broom. It wouldn't be the first time she had surprised us like that. Finally, let's look at Susan's name. For the first four books it was all we had of her, and names can be very important in JKR's books. In Hebrew, Susan means lily, which suggests a connection to Harry's mother, and James, a form of Jacob (also Hebrew), means conqueror, which ties in nicely with our hero. I am just surprised that this ship didn't get more shippers, when we got a very good, although brief, picture of her in OotP and found out that Harry and Susan have about as much chance of happening as any other ship. kitten...TTFN From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 2 21:23:57 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:23:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131868 In a message dated 7/2/2005 1:38:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: Speaking about putting child on the spot... I see no justification whatsoever of Snape reading Rita's article in class in GoF. Talk about putting child on the spot simply because one feels like it, IMO. ============ Sherrie here: Were you never caught passing notes in class? It was standard procedure in my schools - even with "nice" teachers - that notes intercepted in class were read aloud. If you were caught whispering in class, you were made to stand up and "share what's so important with the class." When I was in elementary school, if you were caught chewing gum in class, you could find yourself with it in your hair. I recall one incident when a boy, having been told to sit down and be quiet several times and refusing to comply (testing the new teacher), had his ears used as handles to return him to his seat. We didn't have a dunce cap, but kids who misbehaved were sometimes made to sit in a corner. And verbal dressing-downs were quite common. No, this wasn't in the Victorian age - Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon, actually. No, this wasn't a boarding school - it was a public school in New York State. And no, parents didn't complain. And teachers had control of the classrooms - they didn't have to fear their students, as they do today. (I never saw a metal detector til I went to work in a maximum security prison - my nieces & nephews walk through them to get into school. And none of MY teachers ever had to break up knife fights in class - a friend of mine left one school where he was teaching after he got cut breaking up a fight - between two SEVENTH GRADE GIRLS.) Sorry - I don't see either McGonagall or Snape as outside the norm. They're strict, they hold their students to high standards - something NOT the norm in today's schools - and they keep their classrooms under control. And they TEACH. Umbridge is another story... Sherrie "Some kid a hundred years from now is going to get interested in the Civil War and want to see these places. He's going to go down there and be standing in a parking lot. I'm fighting for that kid." - Brian Pohanka, 1990 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 21:33:08 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:33:08 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131869 > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Answer: I believe Dumbledore or Possibly Lupin may die. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Answer: Professor Snape....have no idea why I think that. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Answer: I don't know if she really has a big secret, maybe she tried to help Pofessor Snape get away from the death eaters and tried to help him and thats why he left Voldemort. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Professor Snape > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think he still likes the same girl he had in the last book Cho. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Have no clue, I was thinking though, what if the person had some sort of ties to Voldemort, or Voldie tryes to get his man in there...that'd be interesting. Yea I know, thats not an answer, but does it count as a guess?? > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Some kind of pensive. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. > > 1. We will learn reasons why Professor Snape joined the order, or at least some more intesting facts about his past like his parents or his years at hogwarts. > 2. This might go with the first one, but we will see why Snape and Sirius hate each other so much. > 3. Hermione or Ron will get hurt badly or either get kidnapped by death eaters and harry and/or Snape will have to save them. > 4. Harry will finally ask questions about his mother/father and there battle with Voldemort or just stuff about them, and get some answers, Possibly from Dumbledore. > 5. Harry and Snape will be forced to work together to save someone or a group of people. > > From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 21:42:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:42:24 -0000 Subject: Child Abuse (Draco) (was Re: Christmas present pattern...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131870 > >>Betsy Hp: > But I'm not sure Harry should be patted on the back for his > behavior. It's hardly heroic to beat someone with such > overwhelming odds on your side. > >>Chris: > I would not pat Harry on the back here, nor call it heroic. But I > will say, "It's about time!" > > I'll ask another question: Who out there was bullied when they > were children and were happy about it? > > There are those who shun Harry for such behavior, and there are > those who are secretly glad he did it. There are those who for some > reason feel sorry for Malfoy, and there are those who can't wait to > see him get his. I fall on the side of the latter...no matter what > kind of childhood Malfoy has endured, no matter whether he can be > redeemed or not: you reap what you sow, and it's time to gather in > the crops... Betsy Hp: I do agree, as I stated previously, that Draco shouldn't have expected anything other than a smack down (honestly, I think Draco *was* surprised, but he's lived a sheltered life). However, I do disagree with your basic premise here, Chris. Because Harry is *not* the poor little outsider getting trampled by the big man on campus until he just can't take it anymore. *Draco* is the outsider. Harry is the BMOC. Think about it. Harry's rich, famous, a sports star and the favorite student of just about the entire staff at Hogwarts. He's the headmaster's golden boy, and when it's time to find a date to the big ball, Harry's brushing the girls off like flies. (IIRC he even had a *sixth* year try and take him to the Yule Ball. How many fourth years have that kind of popularity?) Draco, on the other hand, is in the wrong house, has the wrong parents, and has *never* beaten Harry at *anything*. (Part of the reason I feel sorry for him. I've always had a soft spot for the underdog.) How on earth could Draco fill the role of bully? All he's left with is empty sneers. Sure, his house and his head of house seem to like him, but that's *all* Draco has. He tried to be Harry's friend at least two times (three, IMO) and was rejected each time. Angelina describes Draco as suffering from sour grapes, and I think she hits the nail right on the head. Draco's not a bully to Harry. To be a bully you have to have some sort of power over someone. When it comes to Harry, Draco is pretty much powerless. > >>Valky: > > I wouldn't pat Harry and George on the back either, but I would > give them their position fairly, and respectfully, they weren't > asking for the sledging or the fight. Later I might point out to > them that Draco had no chance, and given that they are > compassionate children I expect they'd feel their own guilt > eventually. Betsy Hp: Harry, I think, would eventually feel guilt. After all, he's been on the receiving end of bad odds. (Of course, Draco is a special case for Harry. He was repulsed at his father's and Sirius's attack on Snape, but at the same time felt Draco would deserve such treatment.) George, I'm not so sure of. He and Fred seem to think two on one is the natural way of things. I think this was the one time one twin attacked without the other right by his side. And usually, their attacks involve only one other person. (Part of the reason I feel sympathy for Percy and *really* hope he's a spy. I *detest* pack behavior.) No, I'm pretty sure George would merely regret getting caught. (Fred, of course, would regret not being in on the fight.) Betsy Hp From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 22:10:42 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:10:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131871 "hermionekitten9" wrote: > I posted this over at Mugglenet... but I would like to hear what > everybody here has to say... that and the fact that the release date > for HbP is coming closer.... I want to get my theories out there, in > case I happen to be right. ;) > > Everybody is saying that Harry will end up with Ginny, Hermione, or > Luna. I don't think it's going to be one of these three girls. > I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I know she isn't a major player yet, > but I think that JKR has introduced Susan the way she has introduced > a million other seemingly "unimportant" things. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Ouuuu, I like this idea, and your theory on the name meaning, I never realized Susan meant Lily...haha. Plus, They sound good together. Susan and Harry...it works, I can see that name on wedding Invites...Muwhahah. Harry, Hermione..sound okay together to though...but um..Harry and Jenny...Harry and Luna... I agree..I think Harry and Susan sound good...Plus, the last name works with Susan better, Susan Potter... Hermione Potter...hummmm...Jenny Potter...hummm...Luna Potter...arg...Cho Potter...bblaaaaa I like Susan Potter way better. Isn't being a match maker FUN! KarentheUnicorn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 22:27:03 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:27:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131872 > >>Betsy Hp: > > I would also add, that though Snape makes the students fear and > hate *him*, McGonagall seems to favor manipulating the student > she's punishing into being hated by their peers. > >>Alla: > Erm... I will agree with you that putting Neville on the spot in > PoA was not a kind thing to do, but really that could at least be > explained by her being upset that supposed murderer now in the > castle because of Neville. Betsy Hp: I recognize McGonagall was upset. I also recognize that she took her fury out on Neville and made sure his *entire* house would look down on him as an idiot. However, Snape trying to *teach* Neville by making him fear doing a potion wrong (which can have deadly consequences) is inexcusable? I'm missing a logic step here. > >>Alla: > Again, I am not justifying it, but I can count Minerva's bad > moments as a teacher on the fingers of my one hand. > Betsy Hp: Which, considering that McGonagall's bad moments result in such an undermining of Harry's and Hermione's self-esteem they actually change their normal behavior, is a very good thing, IMO. Imagine if Hermione and Harry were punished by McGonagall *every* year. Harry would have quit quidditch and Hermione would have become a wallflower. > >>Alla: > Speaking about putting child on the spot... I see no justification > whatsoever of Snape reading Rita's article in class in GoF. Talk > about putting child on the spot simply because one feels like it, > IMO. > >>Sherrie: > Were you never caught passing notes in class? It was standard > procedure in my schools - even with "nice" teachers - that notes > intercepted in class were read aloud. If you were caught whispering > in class, you were made to stand up and "share what's so important > with the class." > Betsy Hp: I totally agree with Sherrie here. Snape was behaving like a teacher. If Harry and Hermione had not wanted to be put on the spot maybe they should have been doing *potions* in potions class and left the magazine article reading until free time. (A radical suggestion, I know .) Plus, the end result of Snape's reading of the article didn't really have much affect on Harry. Harry's friends were still his friends. Draco and friends still disliked Harry. Harry was embarrassed *during* Snape's reading, but he wasn't embarrassed afterwords. > >>Alla: > Oh, and about PS/SS. I absolutely disagree that Minerva's goal was > to make Trio hated by their peers. She caught them being in the > place they were not supposed to be at night. She punished them. Oh, > and she did not forget to punish dear Draco too, which to me shows > her being strict, but also fair ( in general at least), contrary to > someone else. Betsy Hp: I can only agree with McGonagall being ignorant of the points lineup if you can show that, contrary to popular belief, she's a complete idiot. McGonagall *must* have known the house point standing. She's highly competative, as we've already seen. Why else did she bend school rules to get Harry on the quidditch team? And she's been teaching for far too long to be shocked *shocked!* that the other students would be so displeased at three little first years blowing their chances at the house cup. (Remember, after McGonagall taking points Gryffindor went from first to last. That's quite a slide.) As to Draco, McGonagall took twenty points from him. And yes, that's a lot. But it's a lot less than the fifty each she took from Harry and Neville and Hermione. I don't understand why Neville got fifty taken himself. McGonagall seemed to think he was as much a victim of Harry's and Hermione's "prank" as Draco, yet she lumps him in with them. The only reason I can put to it is that once again McGonagall is upset and so she lashes out. (Maybe she just dislikes Neville in general?) > >>Alla: > No, if I were to judge by "totality of circumstances", Minerva is > very far from Snape in the emotional abuse department. Betsy Hp: Considering that McGonagall gives punishments that *really* give a psychological punch, it's a very good thing (IMO) that she's not the one handing out punishments to Harry. If she was I think Harry would dread Hogwarts. Snape only makes him dread potions. Betsy Hp From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 22:44:57 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:44:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131873 Alla wrote: "I will agree with you that putting Neville on the spot in PoA was not a kind thing to do, but really that could at least be explained by her being upset that supposed murderer now in the castle because of Neville." Del replies: I know it's a nitpick, but Sirius did not get in *the castle* because of Neville, he only got in *Gryffindor Tower*. And personally I was absolutely *horrified* by the fact that she forbade Neville from having the password. To me, she was basically telling him "you don't belong in Gryffindor. I don't want you there. >From now on you'll have to rely on the *true* Gryffindors' pity to not be homeless." I find that immensely cruel. Alla wrote: "Speaking about putting child on the spot... I see no justification whatsoever of Snape reading Rita's article in class in GoF. Talk about putting child on the spot simply because one feels like it, IMO." Del replies: Well, the Trio brought the paper to class, and they obviously read it inside the classroom, during classtime, since it was sitting on a chair next to them (open at the page of the article IIRC). So... Well, anyway, I do think that Minerva has a cruel streak that surfaces sometimes, but I'll take her over Snape to teach my kids anytime, because she also has a very nice streak :) Del From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 23:03:02 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:03:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the Buckbeak execution Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131874 As everyone else I'm going through books 1-5 to get shaped for HBP :-) And since it's been a very long time since I last had a chance to visit this wonderful group, I simply gave up trying to find out - in the archive - if this question has resently been brought up. It's not even a real question because nobody but JKR has the answer - it's more like a "what do you think?"-sort-of-thing. Book 3 (POA Bloomsbury Paperback p. 288 "Hermione's Secret"): Dumbledore: "......If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight........" My question (which, Im sure, has been asked before, sorry) is, why did he say that? Dumbledore was present at Hagrid's when the execution of Buckbeak was supposed to take place and he knew already that Buckbeak had left the scene and was safe by the time he visited Harry and Hermione in the hospital wing. But since he said what he said, he must also have known the first time around that H & H were timeturning and that they were present in timeturning-form when he visited Hagrid's hut along with Fudge and McNair. How on earth did he know that? Inge From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 23:59:28 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:59:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I totally agree with you. My writers instincts are screaming Harry/Susan to me, although (as the list knows) I fear H/G. > Let's take a moment to look at this ship. First, let's look at what > we know about Susan. We know that she is from Hufflepuff, which > implies that she is hard-working, and is "just and loyal." She also > had an aunt, uncle, and cousins die by one of Voldemort's Death > Eaters. We also have a quote from JKR saying that Voldemort killed > her grandparents. Another aunt of Susan's, who is the head of the > department of Magical Law Enforcement, was a "fair" person who > resided over Harry's trial (next minister, anyone?). Susan joined > the DA during the first DA meeting. We can gather that she has a > great relationship with her aunt, and she isn't a > regular "Lavender." Very good points. I can easily see a situation arising where Harry goes to Susan because he wants some info on being an auror and her aunt has the inside track. Or maybe her aunt becomes the new minister and susan is suddenly thrust into the limelight and she comiserates on that fact with Harry. there are all sorts of ways for her to interact with him. And I like the idea of Harry dating a book 'unknown' so that we get to know her as Harry does. It'll make nice symmetry. Another point in her favor is that she is a member of a different house. I think if Harry dates another gryffindor things will end up too insular. Plus the fact she's a hufflepuff will lend her more towards a helpmate role instead of a tug of war for relationship control which is what I think would happen with Harry and another gryffindor. Luna could fit the bill, but as much as I like Luna I think she's going to be more a part of Ron's story than Harry's (other than maybe a counselor role). So basically, what I'm saying is that I agree with you Kitten that Harry/Susan has just as good a chance as any of the other ships that are more commonly sailed. Plus Susan has a really cool last name... phoenixgod2000 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 00:08:21 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:08:21 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131876 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Harry. (Whaddayamean, I can't answer that?? Oh, OK...) Well then, I'll say Dumbledore. Much less original, though. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Blaise Zabini. Don't ask. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She was a Metamorphmagus (have to answer *something*!) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Lion guy (I'm lazy). 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Daphne Greengrass (just for the kick of seeing Ron's face when he finds out :-P). 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Griselda Marchbanks. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's Pensieve, which is hidden in the Chamber of Secrets. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, after McGonagall threatens Snape of turning him into a white Persian kitty and marrying him if he doesn't let Harry take that class. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and the first time Snape looks nastily at him, Neville will jinx him and stuff him into his cauldron, to stew in his unfinished potion. It will take 3 weeks for Madam Pomfrey to put Snape back into working order. After that, Neville will never melt another cauldron again, and Snape will never even look at him again. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Let me find my dice... 9, if you count theories and practices as separate OWLS. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will go on an adventure with one or both of the Creevey brothers. 2. Draco Malfoy will train physically and magically all summer long, so he can take his "revenge" on Harry in September. Unfortunately for him, Ginny will slip some Love Potion in his pumpkin juice during the Start of Year Feast, and Draco will fall madly in love with Millicent Bulstrode, thus forgetting all about his angry plan concerning Harry. 3. The love triangle between Draco, Millicent and Pansy will provide most of the comic relief in the book. 4. Lavender or Parvati will make a move on Harry. 5. Viktor will come back and hook up with Luna. Del ps: no need telling my husband I'm crazy, he already knows. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 3 00:26:21 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:26:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C730AD.5020708@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131877 Alla wrote: >"I will agree with you that putting Neville on the spot in PoA was not >a kind thing to do, but really that could at least be explained by her >being upset that supposed murderer now in the castle because of Neville." > Del replies: >I know it's a nitpick, but Sirius did not get in *the castle* because >of Neville, he only got in *Gryffindor Tower*. > > heather nitpicks further: Actually Neville was redeemed from any wrongdoing... Peter stole the passwords. It's true Neville had written them down, but he hadn't left them hanging around carelessly, which is what he was maligned for. heather the buzzard From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 00:41:19 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:41:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: <42C730AD.5020708@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131878 heather wrote: "Actually Neville was redeemed from any wrongdoing... Peter stole the passwords. It's true Neville had written them down, but he hadn't left them hanging around carelessly, which is what he was maligned for." Del replies: Sorry, I wasn't precise enough :-) I meant that McGonagall thought that Neville was responsible for Sirius entering Gryffindor Tower, not the castle. That's what she punished him for. And, er, I think it's *Crookshanks* who stole the passwords from Neville and for Sirius, not Peter... Del From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jul 3 00:42:11 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:42:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: <42C730AD.5020708@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <008d01c57f68$0d22fbd0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 131879 heather nitpicks further: Actually Neville was redeemed from any wrongdoing... Peter stole the passwords. It's true Neville had written them down, but he hadn't left them hanging around carelessly, which is what he was maligned for. Sherry nit picking even more: Actually, it was Crookshanks who stole the passwords, not Peter. Crookshanks stole them and gave tem to Sirius. Sherry From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 00:47:40 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:47:40 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131880 > > > bboyminn: > > First, you are assuming that Tom Riddle (aka:Voldemort) is skilled at > Occlumency. Yes, that was an assumption. The books only tell us he is skilled at Legilimency, > Second, you are assuming that a highly intelligent, old and wise, > experienced teacher like Dumbledore needs to use Legilimency to tell > if a student is lying. No, I'm not assuming that at all. My point was the "penetrating stare." If that had not been in the passage, then I would agree with you...wise, old teacher and all. As your own experience with parents and > teachers should tell you, teens are not as good at lying as they would > like to make themselves believe, so I think in 99% of the cases, > parents, teachers, or Dumbledore don't need to rely on magic to > determine the presence of falsehoods. I agree, but that penetrating stare thing... > > That said, I suspect that Dumbledore MAY have probed Tom just deep > enough to determine that Tom wasn't telling him everything, and wasn't > being completely truthful. Makes sense. But those who are skilled at Legilimen have > an ethic obligation. They can't go around probing the mind of every > person they meet for little or no reason other than the fact that they > can. I would think that the death of a student and probable closure of Hogwarts would be completely within an ethical obligation. This was no ordinary probing of a student. A student died and another student was walking the hallways at a time when he should not have been. A persons thought are very private and personal, and should > therefore be respected. So again, I think Dumbledore may have raise > his Legilimens /radar/ to the level of intuition, and sensed that > Riddle wasn't being completely truthful, but I really don't think at > the time and place, he probed deeply into Riddle's mind, and extracted > detailed information. I would agree with that. > > >I certainly can't prove that last part, but the point I'm actually > making is that with so little information of the details of > Legilimency, we really don't know it's internal workings. > > I think there is some truth in the idea that Dumbledore used some > degree of Legilimens, but we see nothing to indicate that Tom Riddle > block his efforts with Occlumency, nor do we have informtion > indicating that Tom/Voldemort is particularl skilled at Occlumency. > > I suspect he has some very basic skills in this area, Tom is, > afterall, a very powerful, skilled, experienced, and highly educated > wizard, and logically, Occlumency would be a skill that would serve > him, but, again, we have no indications in the books that I can > remember, that indicate that Tom/Voldie has anything more that a > reasonable and basic working knowledge of Occlumency. > > For what it's worth. > > Steve/bboyminn Yes, be we do not have any canon stating that he is not powerful in this area either. It will be interesting to see the future confrontations between DD and LV. Julie From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 3 01:13:45 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:13:45 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Birthdays Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131881 One never knows just what JKR has up her sleeve when she gives someone a name. I came across a post about Lavender Brown's name...written in 2002, mind you. Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40242 According to that post Lavender is the birthday flower for Jan 9th. Think, think, think...who has a birthday on Jan 9th? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 3 01:27:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:27:00 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131882 Julie wrote: > Later in the book, when Harry meets TR in the chamber, we read the > following exchange between Harry and Tom: > > "(Tom) Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think > Hagrid was innocent. He persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train > him as a gamekeeper. Yes, I think Dumbledore might have > guessed...Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other > teachers did..." > "I bet Dumbledore **saw right through you**" said Harry, his teeth > gritted. > "Well, he certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after > Hagrid was expelled," Riddle said *carelessly*. "I knew it wouldn't > be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still in school..." Potioncat: I think you're correct that DD was using Legilimency. The ironic thing is that this section always reminds me of Snape and Harry. Snape is always giving him penetrating stares, he doesn't like Harry as much as the other teachers and he keeps an annoying close watch on Harry. I wonder what DD saw in Tom and I wonder what Snape sees in Harry? And for that matter, what does he see in Neville? From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 01:33:49 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:33:49 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Birthdays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > One never knows just what JKR has up her sleeve when she gives > someone > a name. I came across a post about Lavender Brown's name...written in > 2002, mind you. Here's the link: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40242 > According to that post Lavender is the birthday flower for Jan 9th. > > Think, think, think...who has a birthday on Jan 9th? > Potioncat KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I have a book on Unicorn's and it is said that Unicorn's love the smell of lavender.....meh, not that JKR would have read that book, or, it has anything to do with Lavender Brown..or Professor Snape...meh..just a useless fact I know. KarentheUnicorn From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 3 01:51:53 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:51:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131884 Betsy HP wrote: > As to Draco, McGonagall took twenty points from him. And yes, that's > a lot. But it's a lot less than the fifty each she took from Harry > and Neville and Hermione. I don't understand why Neville got fifty > taken himself. McGonagall seemed to think he was as much a victim of > Harry's and Hermione's "prank" as Draco, yet she lumps him in with > them. The only reason I can put to it is that once again McGonagall > is upset and so she lashes out. (Maybe she just dislikes Neville in > general?) Potioncat: Well, she took 20 points from Draco because he was out of bounds, and he was making up a stupid story about a dragon. She said she was going to talk to Snape about him. It isn't clear if she took Draco straight to Snape or not. Shortly after that, she encounters the trio and Neville. I think (can't prove it) that McG sees a parallel between this incident and the Marauders & Severus history. She takes more points from the trio for being out of bounds *and* for tricking Draco. I also don't understand why she took so many points from Neville unless she thought he was in on the "trick". I also think she's upset because she's going to have to explain to Snape that Draco was tricked by the trio into believing there was a dragon. As to which one abuses students...erm, I'll stay out of that part of the discussion. Potioncat From pipes814 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 2 21:46:03 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:46:03 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131885 > Julie wrote: > > I was re-reading COS ...edited... > > This (snipped) passage implies that DD may have learned > > something from Tom that night on the stair, but what? > > 8. If he learned that Tom opened the chamber, why did he > > do nothing more than keep a eye on him? > > 10. Why did JKR use the word "carelessly" about Tom > > telling Harry DD kept an annoyingly close watch on him? > > Why was that a careless thing for him to say? > > > > 11. Or, was Tom a better Occlumens and DD didn't really > > learn anything but just had "a hunch" that something was > > amiss? > bboyminn: > Next, and finally, we don't really know how Legilimency works. > Yes, we have an overview of what it accomplishes, but we don't > have the deep internal details of its nature and mechanics. > Jamie: I agree with bboyminn; when Snape was using Legilimens on Harry it was like an attack on his brain. Tom would have noticed something like this. I think a quick scan to determine truthfulness may not be detected, but that's about it. Also, I'm not sure if the use of "carelessly" meant that it was careless of Tom to tell Harry this information, or if it only describes the way he said it, meaning that he said it as if it no longer bothers him. From martyb1130 at aol.com Sat Jul 2 23:40:57 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 19:40:57 EDT Subject: Harry and the snake in SS Message-ID: <1a8.3a90e3e2.2ff88009@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131886 Hello all, I was just reading SS and came across something very interesting. When Harry is at the zoo for Dudley's birthday he comes across a snake from Brazil. He starts talking to the snake and the snake is responding with some heads nods and few words. We know that Harry is a parselmouth but how is it that the snake understood what Harry was saying, when he was talking in English ? I know that in CoS Harry talked to the snake without even knowing of it, but he spoke in parseltongue. Just curious, brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipes814 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 01:28:50 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:28:50 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131887 Hmmm...this sounds like fun! > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Ron Weasley (This smacks some sense back into Percy) > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Professor Flitwick > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She's got an ancestor who's a sphinx. (Don't laugh, they've both got almond-shaped eyes and if a human and giant can get together anything's possible) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Kingsley Shacklebolt (No longer needs to hunt for Sirius) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione. Ho hum. She'll cry on his shoulder when Ron dies. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Tom Riddle's pensieve, hidden in the forbidden forest and disguised as a birdbath. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. > Predictions: 1. Dumbledore will teach Harry personally who will in turn become the greatest wizard of his age in book seven. He's shown some of his potential already, but will excel under DD's tutelage. 2. LV's army will attack Hogwarts. 3. We'll find out more about Petunia Dursley's ties to the WW and deep down feelings for her family. 4. Rita Skeeter will die when she approaches LV for an exclusive interview. "How does Harry Potter's umpteenth escape make you feel? Infuriated? Disappointed? Inadequate?" 5. Grawp will step on Aragog and squish him. Jamie From baphythegoat at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 01:57:18 2005 From: baphythegoat at yahoo.com (baphythegoat) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:57:18 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Severus Snape: A Nod to a Little Known Genre Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131888 Hey There Fellow HP Fans: I will cop to the fact that I find Severus Snape one of the most facinating characters in the whole series. At the same time, I would think it was foolish to not acknowledge that in the classroom scenes we've seen, the man is a ferocious prick, and a bitter pill at best in other circumstances. In light of some of the more, errr... frequent "passionate" posts agonizing about what an "abuser" he is, I thought I might bring up a subgenre of childrens'/young adult fiction that is not very well known in the United States these days: The British boarding school novel. In the traditional British Boarding School Novel (such as Tom Swift) the hero/heroes (almost always teenage boys) commonly have a pair of stock adversaries. One is invariably an overpriveledged snotty upper class boy around their age (sound familiar?), and the other is usually a nasty, controlling, pitilessly demeaning authority figure, most often a well established teacher. This teacher acts as an adversary to the hero(es) who challenges their values, mettle, and tests their will. He (less often but occasionally, "she") serves as part of the gauntlet the boy(s) suffer through as they enter the adult world. Before sensibilities drastically began to change no more than 30 years ago (and in some places still hasn't) it was considered par for the course for well over a hundred years-that young adults had to "learn" trial-by-fire-style how to deal with such harshness. "Too Far" existed in this mindset too, but it was radically different than now (try broken bones resulting from punishments, or concrete proof of taking bribes-whether monetary or corporeal as primary means to pass examinations!) Snape is definitely well qualifited for the role of adversary/challenger for Harry and his friends. There is the additional exiting demensions of Snape's past with James Potter, and the fact that there is conflict in Harry over another role his least favorite teacher occasionally touches on- that of ally! The Harry Potter novels primarily belong in the genre of Fantasy Fiction. However, it seems that JK Rowling was very familiar with that of the British Boarding School novel as well! Her imagery and characterizations of many within Hogwarts (not to mention the visuals in the first two films- the kids' school uniforms, Snape is wearing traditional "don's robe", the inside of the castle- gee whiz!) really capture the flavor of this type of literature. Before getting too caught up in a morass of issues perhaps better left for the therapist's office, it is nice to stop and notice the forest for the trees! Sincerely, Baphy the Goat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 3 02:24:19 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 02:24:19 -0000 Subject: Harry and the snake in SS In-Reply-To: <1a8.3a90e3e2.2ff88009@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131889 martyb1130@ wrote: snip We know that Harry is a parselmouth but how is it that the > snake understood what Harry was saying, when he was talking in English ? I know that in CoS Harry talked to the snake without even knowing of it, but he spoke in parseltongue. Potioncat: Harry didn't know he was speaking parseltongue at the duel(COS) or at the zoo (SS/PS). And since he didn't know, we didn't know either. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 02:59:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 02:59:25 -0000 Subject: Draco underdog? Was: Child Abuse (Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131890 > > Betsy Hp: > I do agree, as I stated previously, that Draco shouldn't have > expected anything other than a smack down (honestly, I think Draco > *was* surprised, but he's lived a sheltered life). However, I do > disagree with your basic premise here, Chris. Because Harry is *not* > the poor little outsider getting trampled by the big man on campus > until he just can't take it anymore. *Draco* is the outsider. Harry > is the BMOC. > > Think about it. Harry's rich, famous, a sports star and the favorite > student of just about the entire staff at Hogwarts. He's the > headmaster's golden boy, and when it's time to find a date to the big > ball, Harry's brushing the girls off like flies. (IIRC he even had a > *sixth* year try and take him to the Yule Ball. How many fourth > years have that kind of popularity?) Alla: You view Draco as underdog? I completely disagree . Trio are the main characters of the story, but I always viewed them as underdogs. Let's see . Harry is an orphan, who in PS/SS arrives in the unknown world. This is true - he seems to be famous, but he does not want to be famous and it seems that the croud is ready to turn on him as soon as the possibility arises. In CoS it is revealed that Harry is parselmouth. You know, it did not sound to me at all that school reacted to hima as "big man on campus" Same in GoF with Rita Skeeter articles, same in OOP, when whole WW , except his closest friends pretty much turned on Harry. Let's direct our attention to Ron - youngest sone of "pureblood" family, who is really not held in high esteem by many other pureblood families. And of course Hermione, someone who has to fight for every bit of social status, because she is a muggleborn. She did not have any friends at all, till Harry and Ron became her friends and of course by association, as Harry friend, Hermione has to endure same negative reactions from general population that Harry has. Let's look at Draco - who is the son of one of the most rich prominent purebloods families in WW. His dad buys him his place on the Quidditch team. his dad has the power over governors to force them to dismiss Dumbledore ( temporarily, but still). Draco pretty much has the free reighn to harass Hermione any time he wants. Sure, he loses most of the time, but I don't see it as him being an underdog. I see it that in that situation underdogs are simply much stronger than he is. But in comparison to other kids, I most definitely see Draco as attempting to be Big Boss on campus and trio as underdogs. Just my opinion, Alla. From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 3 03:09:23 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:09:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: <008d01c57f68$0d22fbd0$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <008d01c57f68$0d22fbd0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <42C756E3.8020206@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131891 >heather nitpicks further: >Actually Neville was redeemed from any wrongdoing... Peter stole the >passwords. It's true Neville had written them down, but he hadn't left >them hanging around carelessly, which is what he was maligned for. > >Sherry nit picking even more: >Actually, it was Crookshanks who stole the passwords, not Peter. >Crookshanks stole them and gave tem to Sirius. > > heather confesses: *blush* Golly you're right. I made a silly blunder. This has been a wonderful nitpickalooza. Have we finally got to the right answer by the end? heather the buzzard giggling From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sun Jul 3 03:51:13 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:51:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the snake in SS In-Reply-To: <1a8.3a90e3e2.2ff88009@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131892 Brodeur: Hello all, I was just reading SS and came across something very interesting. When Harry is at the zoo for Dudley's birthday he comes across a snake from Brazil. He starts talking to the snake and the snake is responding with some heads nods and few words. We know that Harry is a parselmouth but how is it that the snake understood what Harry was saying, when he was talking in English ? I know that in CoS Harry talked to the snake without even knowing of it, but he spoke in parseltongue. Tiffany: My best guess is that the Harry was speaking in parseltongue in SS. Maybe that's why Dudley and Pierce were so interested in what the snake was doing, because it was responding to Harry making funny noises. Harry didn't realize he was speaking parseltongue in COS until Ron and Hermione told him after the dueling club incident. Didn't he say something like 'I spoke another language?" So perhaps Harry thought he was speaking English to the Brazilian snake in SS. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 04:27:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 04:27:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131893 > > >>Alla wrote earlier: > > Erm... I will agree with you that putting Neville on the spot in > > PoA was not a kind thing to do, but really that could at least be > > explained by her being upset that supposed murderer now in the > > castle because of Neville. > > Betsy Hp: > I recognize McGonagall was upset. I also recognize that she took her > fury out on Neville and made sure his *entire* house would look down > on him as an idiot. However, Snape trying to *teach* Neville by > making him fear doing a potion wrong (which can have deadly > consequences) is inexcusable? I'm missing a logic step here. Alla: No, I think you misunderstood me completely. I think that Mcgonagall's action while COULD be considered emotionally abusive misses the key part to be indeed considered so - the INTENT on Minerva's behalf. I don't think that Mcgonagall wanted to Neville's peers to hate him. I think that she maybe, I don't know - did not think it through, because she was upset that other kids could get hurt or even killed by Sirius. When Snape on the hand does things to Neville, I see his only intent as making an exercise of public humiliation for Neville. > Betsy Hp: > I can only agree with McGonagall being ignorant of the points lineup > if you can show that, contrary to popular belief, she's a complete > idiot. McGonagall *must* have known the house point standing. She's > highly competative, as we've already seen. Why else did she bend > school rules to get Harry on the quidditch team? And she's been > teaching for far too long to be shocked *shocked!* that the other > students would be so displeased at three little first years blowing > their chances at the house cup. (Remember, after McGonagall taking > points Gryffindor went from first to last. That's quite a slide.) Alla: Erm... I did not say anywhere that Minerva was ignorant of points lineup. I said that Minerva's goal was NOT to make trio hated by other Gryffs, but simply to punish them. I would like to repeat the same argument which I stated earlier. IMO, McGonagall's INTENT is what makes her action OK to me at least. I am not sure what would you suggest for her to do at this point? Letting them go unpunished? I think that as a fair teacher , she did not have much choice here,actually. THEN she would have been no better than Snape,IMO, you know, always letting the members of his house go unpunished. Betsy: I don't understand why Neville got fifty > taken himself. (Maybe she just dislikes Neville in > general?) Alla: No, I don't think that she dislikes Neville in general. At least she praises him sometimes . "There is nothing wrong with you work except the lack of confidence" - paraphrase). I am not sure Snape ever said anything close to that to Neville. Nuh, in general, I adore Minerva as a teacher ( again - she sure had a few bad moments, but not many IMO). I said earlier that if I ever get tired of being a lawyer and decide to put my teaching degree to work, I want to be like her and Lupin mixed together. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 06:45:50 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 06:45:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the Buckbeak execution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > ...edited... > > Book 3 (POA Bloomsbury Paperback p. 288 "Hermione's Secret"): > > Dumbledore: "......If all goes well, you will be able to save more > than one innocent life tonight........" > > My question ... why did he say that? Dumbledore was present at > Hagrid's when the execution ...and he knew already that Buckbeak > had left the scene and was safe .... But ..., he must also have known > the first time around that H & H were timeturning ... > How on earth did he know that? > > Inge bboyminn: Not necessarily, Dumbledore was there are Hagrid's Hut, MacNair looked out the window and saw Buckbeak, they read some documents and signed some papers, and when they went outside, Buckbeak was gone. It doesn't really matter how or why his is gone, only that he escaped. At this point Dumbledore suggest to MacNair that he 'search the skies', thereby implying that Buckbeak was unlikely to linger on the ground, especially if someone has assisted in Buckbeaks escape. However, I think it is very reasonable for Dumbledore to think that Buckbeak would linger on the school grounds rather than fly away immediately. So, the point is, that I think Dumbledore reasonably concluded that while Buckbeak was gone, he was not truly gone; he still linger at Hogwarts, which meant the was available to be used in Sirius's escape. Further, just like Lupin, Dumbledore may have surmised that Harry, Ron, and Hermione would come down to Hagrids, and may even have detected the running away under the invisibility cloak. From that, he could conclude that the Trio may have indeed already been involved in Buckbeaks escape, but he doesn't necessarily know that they help using the Time Turner. So, in the hospital ward, Dumbledore simply inserts a little reminder that they can save two 'people'. If they understand that the first 'person' they need to save is Buckbeak, then it becomes clear that Buckbeak can be used to save Sirius. Finally, 'Plausible Deniability', something Dumbledore needs if this whole wacky scheme goes wrong. Dumbledore can't flat out say, use Buckbeak to save Sirius, because that makes him a co-conspirator and accessory to the crime. If he couches his statements in vague generalizations, then it all comes back to bite him on the butt, he can, with some degree of honesty, deny that he told the Trio anything. So, while it's not that hard to wonder how Dumbledore magically knows what he knows, I think in many many cases, he doesn't really know things in the detail and to the extent our imaginations have lead us to believe. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 07:04:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 07:04:05 -0000 Subject: DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens -Skill vs Spell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jamie" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > > Next, and finally, we don't really know how Legilimency works. > > Yes, we have an overview of what it accomplishes, but we don't > > have the deep internal details of its nature and mechanics. > > Jamie: > I agree with bboyminn; when Snape was using Legilimens on Harry it > was like an attack on his brain. Tom would have noticed something > like this. I think a quick scan to determine truthfulness may not > be detected, but that's about it. bboyminn: This is more of a side note than anything else. I want to remind everyone that Snapes Legilimens efforts during Harry's Occlumency lesson are not necessarily the same as the SKILL of Legilimens. By that I mean, Snape cast the 'Legilimens' SPELL, which is similar to BUT not the same as the innate inherent internal SKILL of Legilimency. I have always speculated that the difference was that the Spell gave you great details, very clear images, but it was very random. Whereas the Skill of Legilimency can focus on more specific information, but does so in a more vague and intuitive way. The Spell is clear but random; the Skill is more specific, but less clear. Can't prove that, but the Legilimens Spell seems pretty useless for extracting specific information unless you have great deal of time to sit and wait for the specific information to come randomly floating by. Plus, as seen in the Occlumency lesson, the Legilimens Spell seems equally useless for truth detection. Just making a small point re-enforcing how little we know about the deeper internal workings of Legilimency or Occlumency. Steve/bboyminn From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 3 09:06:57 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 10:06:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry and....Susan? References: Message-ID: <003a01c57fae$9209f3d0$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 131896 I was extremely interrested in what you had to say about this. Susan strikes me as a more positive character than Cho was. I think that if Hermione again asked Harry to meet her and he was in Hogsmead at the time with Susan, Susan would understand the relationship, even when Harry explained. Wow - it will be interesting to see what happens. Derek ----- Original Message ----- From: "hermionekitten9" To: Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 10:16 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry and....Susan? >I posted this over at Mugglenet... but I would like to hear what > everybody here has to say... that and the fact that the release date > for HbP is coming closer.... I want to get my theories out there, in > case I happen to be right. ;) > > Everybody is saying that Harry will end up with Ginny, Hermione, or > Luna. I don't think it's going to be one of these three girls. First > of all, there really hasn't been any real concrete clues about any > of these girls, regardless of what other shippers might say. In my > personal opinion Hermione and Ginny are just, well, easy. I would > think of it as a cop-out if Harry were to end up with one of them. I > mean, best friend or best friend's little sister? I give JKR's > imagination much more credit than that. Luna? I just can't see her > in a relationship with anyone, more or less a person with Harry's > temperament. Don't get me wrong, though. I adore these girls. I just > don't see them with Harry. > > I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I know she isn't a major player yet, > but I think that JKR has introduced Susan the way she has introduced > a million other seemingly "unimportant" things. And with Susan being > more prominent in the fifth book than all the other ones, I think > JKR has made way for her to be even more prominent in the sixth > book. If Susan is just to be a name at the Sorting ceremony, > why "up" her in the fifth book? I think she is going to be important > in some way, so why not as a love interest? > > Let's take a moment to look at this ship. First, let's look at what > we know about Susan. We know that she is from Hufflepuff, which > implies that she is hard-working, and is "just and loyal." She also > had an aunt, uncle, and cousins die by one of Voldemort's Death > Eaters. We also have a quote from JKR saying that Voldemort killed > her grandparents. Another aunt of Susan's, who is the head of the > department of Magical Law Enforcement, was a "fair" person who > resided over Harry's trial (next minister, anyone?). Susan joined > the DA during the first DA meeting. We can gather that she has a > great relationship with her aunt, and she isn't a > regular "Lavender." > > I think this is an awful lot of background that we have for a person > who is going to be only a "minor" character. > > Notice how both Harry and Susan have lost family members to > Voldemort. Susan is the only other student, mentioned in canon, that > has. This is something that neither Luna, Hermione, nor Ginny have > in common with Harry. It could be a bonding point between he and > Susan. Then there is this quote: > > Susan Bones, who had an uncle, aunt, and cousins who had all died at > the hand of one of the ten, said miserably during Herbology that she > now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry. > "And I don't know how you stand it, it's horrible." > This is the quote that got me hooked on Harry/Susan. In two scenes > in OotP featuring Susan, one is all about her telling Harry that she > knows how he feels. Why did JKR make it a point to mention that > Susan knows how Harry feels when for four books she has been nothing > but a name at a Sorting ceremony? Is this a foreshadowing of what's > to come? After all, Harry/Hermione, Harry/Luna, and Harry/Ginny > shippers all state how their girls "know how Harry feels." > What about the second scene with Susan, during the first DA meeting > at the Hog's Head? The meeting wasn't going particularly well at > first. Zacharias Smith's comments were making the other students > doubt Harry's DADA abilities. But then Susan spoke up, asking about > Harry's Patronus and reminding the other students that he was good > at DADA. Had JKR not put her there, who knows where the DA could > have gone. Also, Susan's and Harry's conversation was all about > Harry's Patronus. Why don't we know what Susan's Patronus is? Was > there a reason this was left out? You would think that JKR would > mention it during the DA class where they are all learning how to > conjure a Patronus. I expected at least a comment from Susan, since > the Patronus charm was what got her "introduced" to Harry, after > all. It's just curious to me, very curious indeed. > > Then there are Susan's friends. Does anyone else find it odd that > while we have the DoM six, there is *another* group of six -- Ernie, > Justin, Hannah, Susan, Terry and Anthony -- that are always hanging > around each other. Their biggest moment is on the train ride home > when they stop Draco from ambushing Harry. Could this just be > coincidence? > > I also find it curious that we don't know who killed her family. Why > was this kept out? Why say "...who was killed by one of the ten..." > and not "...who was killed by so-and-so?" It seems obvious that it > was purposely kept out. It just seems to me that JKR has put Susan > under our radar on purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if JKR does one > of her famous "plot twists" and has us all thinking that it's going > to be one of Harry/Ginny, Harry/Hermione, Harry/Luna, and then have > Susan come swoopin' down on her broom. It wouldn't be the first time > she had surprised us like that. > > Finally, let's look at Susan's name. For the first four books it was > all we had of her, and names can be very important in JKR's books. > In Hebrew, Susan means lily, which suggests a connection to Harry's > mother, and James, a form of Jacob (also Hebrew), means conqueror, > which ties in nicely with our hero. > > I am just surprised that this ship didn't get more shippers, when we > got a very good, although brief, picture of her in OotP and found > out that Harry and Susan have about as much chance of happening as > any other ship. > > kitten...TTFN > > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 09:55:36 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:55:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" > I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I know she isn't a major player yet, > but I think that JKR has introduced Susan the way she has introduced > a million other seemingly "unimportant" things. And with Susan being > more prominent in the fifth book than all the other ones, I think > JKR has made way for her to be even more prominent in the sixth > book. If Susan is just to be a name at the Sorting ceremony, > why "up" her in the fifth book? I think she is going to be important > in some way, so why not as a love interest? Karen: Very intersting theory and allows me to bring up something that I noticed yesterday when I was watching the first film again. I know the film isn't strictly cannon, but JKR has a very big say in what can be left out so that the film makers don't inadvertantly leave out something vital that seems trivial. The only people we see sorted are Harry, Ron, Hermione, Draco and *Susan Bones*. Not Neville, not the Patil twins, indeed no one from Ravenclaw. And it's not even an alphabetical order thing, because Hermione is sorted first. The fact that Susan was shown being sorted rang alarm bells in my head, although admittedly shipping didn't occur to me. > Notice how both Harry and Susan have lost family members to > Voldemort. Susan is the only other student, mentioned in canon, that > has. This is something that neither Luna, Hermione, nor Ginny have > in common with Harry. Just wanted to make a point that actually Ginny does have that in common with Harry. The Prewitt brothers were Molly's brothers therefore Ginny's uncles. I do find it strange though that Ron has never mentioned this at all. I wonder if the Weasley children know that their uncles were killed by LV/DEs. Even though it happened before they were born you'd still think Ron, or one of the others, would have mentioned it somewhere along the line. Karen From BrwNeil at aol.com Sun Jul 3 14:00:13 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 10:00:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? Message-ID: <88.29eeb2ad.2ff9496d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131898 In a message dated 7/3/2005 5:56:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk writes: Very intersting theory and allows me to bring up something that I noticed yesterday when I was watching the first film again. I know the film isn't strictly cannon, but JKR has a very big say in what can be left out so that the film makers don't inadvertantly leave out something vital that seems trivial. The only people we see sorted are Harry, Ron, Hermione, Draco and *Susan Bones*. Not Neville, not the Patil twins, indeed no one from Ravenclaw. And it's not even an alphabetical order thing, because Hermione is sorted first. The fact that Susan was shown being sorted rang alarm bells in my head, although admittedly shipping didn't occur to me. JKR in her books often does drop hints, but that doesn't mean that every line she writes is meaningful to the story. I think sometimes we as readers try to give everything she puts on paper significance when it might not actually have any. Take the sorting in book one as an example. Is every person that we see sorted important to the story? Which came first, the egg or the chicken? Did JKR when she first wrote SS have parts in mind for every student she sorted or did she just sort names and then later give those names bit parts in the story. I tend to think the latter. She could hardly just sort Harry, Ron, Neville and Hermione. It would have looked like everyone went to Gryffindor. As for Susan Bones becoming Harry's love, I guess anything is possible, but I wouldn't use the movie as any indication. I think the reason that her sorting was shown had more to do with her being played by Chris Columbus' daughter than her future importance to the story. Maybe Harry will fall for Sally-Anne Perks or Lisa Turpin. They were sorted and then dissappeared. Does it really matter who Harry ends up with or if he actually ends up with anyone? My answer to that is yes, but I'll feel ripped off if it is someone that only appears in book seven after we have all shipped either Hermione or Ginny for five books. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies Read and discuss Hogwarts Exposed and its sequels at _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HogwartsExposed/) Stories also available at _http://www.schnoogle.com/_ (http://www.schnoogle.com/) author Neil, _http://portkey.org/_ (http://portkey.org/) author Neil, and _http://www.adultfanfiction.net/_ (http://www.portkey.org/) author Neil Chapter sixteen of Hogwarts OverExposed - Salazar's Return, has been posted. Look for chapter seventeen on July 11, 2005. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Sun Jul 3 15:11:00 2005 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:11:00 +0100 Subject: Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? In-Reply-To: <1120394357.1777.36061.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131899 I'm currently re-reading the first 5 books while awaiting the release of HBP (only 2 weeks to go !!!) and have come across something in GOF which I have never noticed before. Forgive me if this has been discussed on here before, I don't remember ever seeing it but there are so many messages.... I'm quoting from page 570 of the UK Bloomsbury edition. Voldemort has just risen and is telling the Death Eaters how he devised his plan to get at Harry: < "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there....then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup....I thought his protection might be weaker there, away from his relations and Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong enough to attempt kidnap in the midst of a horde of Ministry wizards." > What jumped out at me on this re-read was, how could Voldemort know that Harry was going to attend the Quidditch World Cup? Surely he should have assumed that Harry would stay at the Dursley's for the duration of the school holidays? Perhaps, I wondered, he got this information from Barty Crouch Jnr, who heard from Crouch Snr that Harry was expected in the Top Box. But, in chapter 35 where Crouch Jnr is given the Veritaserum, he says that Voldemort did not make contact with him until *after* the World Cup. So, while Voldemort was in hiding, with only Wormtail for company, how could he have known this? It's made me wonder whether there is an informant among those who DID know Harry was going to the Cup - namely the Weasleys, Dumbledore, Ron and Hermione. Given later events and Percy's actions in OOP, my suspicions would fall on him. There are numerous references throughout the books to Percy's ambitions to be Minister of Magic, and the lengths he would go to to further his career - quote from page 463, same edition: <"Percy would never throw any of his family to the Dementors" said Hermione severely. "I don't know" said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way of his career...Percy's really ambitious you know..."> What do other people think? Beth From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 3 15:34:31 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry and....Susan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050703153431.53717.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131900 hermionekitten9 wrote: >>I posted this over at Mugglenet... but I would like to hear what everybody here has to say... that and the fact that the release date for HbP is coming closer.... I want to get my theories out there, in case I happen to be right. ;) >>Everybody is saying that Harry will end up with Ginny, Hermione, or Luna. I don't think it's going to be one of these three girls. I agree with this assessment entirely. I have never been able to see the Ginny connection in spite of the fanfic and arguments for her. And IIRC, JKR said the relationship with Hermione is purely platonic. >>I ship Harry with Susan Bones. I know she isn't a major player yet, but I think that JKR has introduced Susan the way she has introduced a million other seemingly "unimportant" things. And with Susan being more prominent in the fifth book than all the other ones, I think JKR has made way for her to be even more prominent in the sixth book. If Susan is just to be a name at the Sorting ceremony, why "up" her in the fifth book? I think she is going to be important in some way, so why not as a love interest? I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Susan and Harry would get together, ever since book 1. I don't really know why, just my "women's intuition" ;) >snip really good examples< >>I think this is an awful lot of background that we have for a person who is going to be only a "minor" character. Exactly. Why give us so much info on a "minor" character unless there is something significant waiting in the wings. >>Notice how both Harry and Susan have lost family members to Voldemort. I wonder if she can see the thestrals? >>Susan Bones, who had an uncle, aunt, and cousins who had all died at the hand of one of the ten, said miserably during Herbology that she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry. "And I don't know how you stand it, it's horrible." >snip< >>What about the second scene with Susan, during the first DA meeting at the Hog's Head? The meeting wasn't going particularly well at first. Zacharias Smith's comments were making the other students doubt Harry's DADA abilities. But then Susan spoke up, asking about Harry's Patronus and reminding the other students that he was good at DADA. Had JKR not put her there, who knows where the DA could have gone. Also, Susan's and Harry's conversation was all about Harry's Patronus. Why don't we know what Susan's Patronus is? Was there a reason this was left out? You would think that JKR would mention it during the DA class where they are all learning how to conjure a Patronus. I expected at least a comment from Susan, since the Patronus charm was what got her "introduced" to Harry, after all. It's just curious to me, very curious indeed. Perhaps Susan's patronus will give away too much plot hints for the last two books. >>Then there are Susan's friends. Does anyone else find it odd that while we have the DoM six, there is *another* group of six -- Ernie, Justin, Hannah, Susan, Terry and Anthony -- that are always hanging around each other. Their biggest moment is on the train ride home when they stop Draco from ambushing Harry. Could this just be coincidence? I never noticed this. Good point. I will have to think this one out more. >snip< Finally, let's look at Susan's name. For the first four books it was all we had of her, and names can be very important in JKR's books. In Hebrew, Susan means lily, which suggests a connection to Harry's mother, and James, a form of Jacob (also Hebrew), means conqueror, which ties in nicely with our hero. Names do seem very important. Especially in the WW. We do seem to "grow" into our names, don't we? ;) >>I am just surprised that this ship didn't get more shippers, when we got a very good, although brief, picture of her in OotP and found out that Harry and Susan have about as much chance of happening as any other ship. I predicted Susan as Harry's new love interest in Tigerpatronus' contest. We will see soon though, less than 2 weeks left! Chris (Flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From martyb1130 at aol.com Sun Jul 3 15:35:05 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:35:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? Message-ID: <76.5665e7f4.2ff95fa9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131901 I think that Bertha told LV that Harry was going to the Quidditch World Cup. She works for Fudge and the ministry and probably known that her boss got the tickets for the Weaslys' as well as Harry and Hermione. Bertha knew everything that was going on and told LV that Harry would be there. brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From riberam at glue.umd.edu Sun Jul 3 15:53:54 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:53:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Beth Currie" wrote: > > What jumped out at me on this re-read was, how could Voldemort know that > Harry was going to attend the Quidditch World Cup? Surely he should have > assumed that Harry would stay at the Dursley's for the duration of the > school holidays? Perhaps, I wondered, he got this information from Barty > Crouch Jnr, who heard from Crouch Snr that Harry was expected in the Top > Box. But, in chapter 35 where Crouch Jnr is given the Veritaserum, he says > that Voldemort did not make contact with him until *after* the World Cup. > > So, while Voldemort was in hiding, with only Wormtail for company, how could > he have known this? It's made me wonder whether there is an informant among > those who DID know Harry was going to the Cup - namely the Weasleys, > Dumbledore, Ron and Hermione. Given later events and Percy's actions in > OOP, my suspicions would fall on him. There are numerous references > throughout the books to Percy's ambitions to be Minister of Magic, and the > lengths he would go to to further his career - quote from page 463, same > edition: > > <"Percy would never throw any of his family to the Dementors" said Hermione > severely. "I don't know" said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the > way of his career...Percy's really ambitious you know..."> > > What do other people think? The first person that comes to my mind is Lucius Malfoy. He seems to spend a lot of time at the Ministry given that he doesn't work there, and gets lots of information. I am sure Bangman would not have kept it a secret that he had given the Weasleys some tickets and that Harry was coming with them. He could have told Malfoy directly, although more likely he told Fudge and Malfoy got the information from him. But indeed you make a very good point. Maryblue From riberam at glue.umd.edu Sun Jul 3 16:03:48 2005 From: riberam at glue.umd.edu (maryblue67) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:03:48 -0000 Subject: Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? In-Reply-To: <76.5665e7f4.2ff95fa9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martyb1130 at a... wrote: > I think that Bertha told LV that Harry was going to the Quidditch World Cup. > She works for Fudge and the ministry and probably known that her boss got > the tickets for the Weaslys' as well as Harry and Hermione. Bertha knew > everything that was going on and told LV that Harry would be there. > Now Maryblue: Right, Bertha, how could I have forgotten her? In any case, this makes me think: how early that summer did Bertha disappear? The QWC plans must have been well stablished no matter how early she left for her trip, but did the Weasleys have their tickets all that time? When I read the passage when Arthur Weasley introduces Bangman to the kids and tells them that he got them the tickets, to me it sounded like a last minute thing, not something that happened very early that summer. In any case, I think Bertha is a more likely candidate than my previous theory of Malfoy, but who knows! Maryblue From labmystc at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 16:07:01 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:07:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? In-Reply-To: <76.5665e7f4.2ff95fa9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martyb1130 at a... wrote: > I think that Bertha told LV that Harry was going to the Quidditch > World Cup. She works for Fudge and the ministry and probably known > that her boss got the tickets for the Weaslys' as well as Harry and > Hermione. Bertha knew everything that was going on and told LV that > Harry would be there. > > brodeur I agree with brodeur on this one, with one simple correction. Ludo Bagman was Berhta's boss, and the one who got the World Cup tickets for Arthur. Bertha would have known that Harry was attending the Cup as a guest of the Weasleys and would have told LV once her memory charm was broken. Chris From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 3 16:57:36 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:57:36 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131905 aussie: > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. But I'd also like to see Hagrid go. He is my fav, but I'd hate JKR to suprise us with Dark conections if he lives to #7. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) HBP is not a WHO, but a WHAT ... like a law's title. (eg. saving the life of another wizard makes you entitled to the HBP law and he is endebted to you) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The EYES. Seems like those green eyes didn't run in the fam as far as Petunia. Dobby has green eyes though. Did Lilly accidently try Pollyjuice potion with House Elf essnce same way Hermoine got cat hairs. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A New Character. This is an African wizard who, instead of an owl, uses a colorful "fwooper"(see "Fantastic Beasts"). This wizard with the colorful bird gave a safe haven to Black at the start of GOF. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? His broom. He is too worried about how LV was controlling him in OOP to risk someone he may be romantically drawn to. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve. Dumbledore is teaching Harry how to collect and store his own thoughts to view them objectively > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definately. Yes. How can JKR keep Harry / Snape / Draco separated for a whole book > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. Herbology and DADA, Yes, but he has no love nor interest in Potions - class or teacher. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? His patronus earned bonus points in DADA to Dux that subject. Potions gains bare minimum to keep going for Auror goals. At least 3 more thatn the best of the twins > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. > > 1. Hagrid has a flying carpet. I can't see another way he could have arrived to pick up Harry at age 1 or 11. > 2. Madame Maxime sends Hagrid a Graphorn hide. (see "Fantastic Beasts") They are big enough for Trolls to ride, and skins repell spells better than Dragon hides do. Just the perfect romantic gift to a half giant. > 3. Crabb and Goyle will not get enough OWLs to continue studies at Hogwarts. Draco will find a new ally in the teenage child of the new DADA teacher. > 4. It is revealed what happened to make DD trust Snape so much. DD said in POA, "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt.... When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them". Likewise, Snape saved DD or DD's brother. > 5. Trelawney will be the target of DE since the origin of the prophesey holds it's secret aussie From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 17:14:35 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:14:35 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas' Boggart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131906 Does anyone notice that Dean Thomas' boggart turned into a severed hand when Lupin was teaching DADA in POA? (POA CHAPTER 7 pg 138) It seems that severed hands are showing up all over the place - the Hand of Glory (ss) Dean's boggart (poa) ,hand, of course, Pettigrew's shiny new silver one (GOF) I wonder if Dean will meet the little whiskered fiend Peter in battle before the end of the series, or if the Hand of Glory will be used by Death Eaters along with the Marauders Map and an invisibility cloak or three to invade Hogwarts in the dead of night Can someone give me a hand in tieing up the loose ends? tinglinger who has created several neat polls in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots If you want to check out the polls which relate to Luna, Godric's Hollow events, and Appeareances of characters who may not be what they appear to be, please feel free to click http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/polls From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 3 17:29:23 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:29:23 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131907 --- Laura Lynn Walsh wrote: >big snip< > 2. Norbert will be let loose after his babyhood, will recognize > Hagrid, and will come to his aid. > Laura Walsh lwalsh at a... aussie / norbertsmummy: Norbert would be better to return in book #7 with Charlie as his jockey. I hope to see a flying amada in the final battle against the DE. Thestrals, flying carpets, Beauxbatons' carriage, and the expected broomsticks will be used. Black's bike? Maybe. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 3 18:53:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:53:33 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > You view Draco as underdog? I completely disagree . Trio are the > main characters of the story, but I always viewed them as underdogs. > Let's look at Draco - who is the son of one of the most rich > prominent purebloods families in WW. His dad buys him his place on > the Quidditch team. his dad has the power over governors to force > them to dismiss Dumbledore ( temporarily, but still). > Draco pretty much has the free reighn to harass Hermione any time he > wants. > Sure, he loses most of the time, but I don't see it as him being an > underdog. > I see it that in that situation underdogs are simply much stronger > than he is. > But in comparison to other kids, I most definitely see Draco as > attempting to be Big Boss on campus and trio as underdogs. Geoff: I think, Alla, that you have created a contradiction in terms here. My dictionary defines "underdog" as : A competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. So your statements "Sure, he loses most of the time, but I don't see it as him being an underdog" and "I see it that in that situation underdogs are simply much stronger than he is" just fly in the face of the definition. If he loses most of the time and underdogs are stronger than he is (!!!) then he most definitely fits the definition of underdog. I have said before that I have a sneaking sympathy for Draco because he seems to be in the unenviable position of permanently losing out or losing face to Harry. Just to highlight a few instances: his overtures on the train in PS were rejected by Harry; he has not managed to win at Quidditch when up against Harry; When he tries to land the others in trouble when Norbert is being sent away, he finishes up in detention as well; when they go to serve the detention in the Forbidden Forest, he chickens out and leaves Harry to the tender mercies of the "cloaked figure". I have also said previously that I believe that Draco is a basically unhappy boy. What we see of his interaction with his father suggests that Lucius has little love to show to him. Draco gets "things" but this is often the escape hatch used by parents who merely want to keep their child content ? in the worst sense of the word. He is an only child and has learned little in the ways of social skills in working with other contemporaries. In Slytherin, there seems to be little of the family atmosphere of Gryffindor. Students want to see their house do well in Quidditch and the House Cup competitions but this seems to be a question of keeping up with tradition. Draco seems to have no real friends in the house in whom he can confide. Goyle and Crabbe appear to be his muscle men but, from what JKR writes of them, Draco might as well go and talk to the suits of armour to have a real boy to boy friendship which is so valuable to someone of his age. It is precisely his lack of social skills and patronising attitude ? probably picked up from Lucius ? which caused him to completely muff his approach to Harry and to lay the foundations for a lasting dislike and distrust. No, I see Draco as an underdog trying vainly to project an image of the big guy which completely fails outside the Slytherin common room and, as a result, a rather sad little figure, which I am sure someone will remind me from historical examples could be dangerous. From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 19:29:56 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:29:56 -0000 Subject: Wizard of the Month/Dragon Box Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131909 Finwitch: Well, I suppose some of you have already read of this month's wizard - Cahuncey Oldridge, (1342-1379) first victim of Dragon Box. Also, Dragon Box was mentioned in OOP when Harry visited Arthur in St Mungos... Now then -- is one of the trio going to get it? Harry maybe? A potentially lethal disease, which Muggles cannot treat -- surely that would get Harry out of Dursleys permanently? I wonder though - what sort of symptoms would Dragon Box have? Cause the victim to breathe fire perhaps? Fever, a rash that looks like Dragon Scales? I just imagine Harry getting it (not knowing he has it at first, of course) and breathing fire on Dursleys/Snape/Draco upon trying to speak. Finwitch From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 19:37:39 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:37:39 -0000 Subject: Wizard of the Month/Dragon Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131910 > Finwitch: > > Well, I suppose some of you have already read of this month's wizard - > Cahuncey Oldridge, (1342-1379) first victim of Dragon Box. > > Also, Dragon Box was mentioned in OOP when Harry visited Arthur in St > Mungos... > I wonder though - what sort of symptoms would Dragon Box have? Cause > the victim to breathe fire perhaps? Fever, a rash that looks like > Dragon Scales? > a_svirn: Considering that it's actually `pox', not `box', I'd say the victim is covered with huge (dragon-size) pustules. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 19:46:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:46:13 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131911 > Geoff: > I think, Alla, that you have created a contradiction in terms here. > > My dictionary defines "underdog" as : > A competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or > contest. > > So your statements "Sure, he loses most of the time, but I don't see > it as him being an underdog" and "I see it that in that situation > underdogs are simply much stronger than he is" just fly in the face > of the definition. > > If he loses most of the time and underdogs are stronger than he is > (!!!) then he most definitely fits the definition of underdog. Alla: Oops, I may have created a contradiction, so let me try to clarify. I thought Betcy was talking about Draco as underdog in relation to whole Hogwarts, not just in terms of Draco/Harry relationship. Here I most definitely see HRH as underdogs, because they have to overcome external circumstances, which are often adversarial to them. I gave examples in my previous post when everybody in school is ready to turn on Harry when he does as much as a wrong step, when Hermione has to work harder than many purebloods,simply because she is a muggleborn. Hermione and Harry have to conquer the world completely unknown to them, Ron has to overcome the shadow of his brothers and nonprestigious social status, so to speak. Draco does not have to work for anything, he already has everything, because of his family status. So, that is why I am uncapable of viewing him as underdog of in Hogwarts. I think any member of the Trio fits this definition much better. Am I still thinking in contradictions? Also, I don't even view Draco as underdog in his relationship with Harry, because IMO even thought he loses, he is not supposed to lose. Harry often wins against all odds in the situation which Draco himself starts and that is why it is such immense satisfaction for me to see Draco loose over and over again. I always feel that he starts the fight with unfair advantage which Trio manages to overcome. I don't feel that JKR makes it too easy for Trio to beat Draco. Am I being confusing? Geoff: No, I see Draco as an underdog trying vainly to > project an image of the big guy which completely fails outside the > Slytherin common room and, as a result, a rather sad little figure, > which I am sure someone will remind me from historical examples could > be dangerous. Alla: I agree with you on SO many topics, I guess it is time to disagree. I m much less sympathetic to Draco than you are, but who knows, maybe I am completely wrong. JKR did wish him Happy Birthday after all. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jul 3 19:56:26 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:56:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's abuse v Mcgonagall abuse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C842EA.3010807@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131912 dumbledore11214 wrote: > I see no justification whatsoever of Snape reading Rita's article in class in GoF. Talk about putting child on the spot simply because one feels like it, IMO. Now that's really unfair to Snape. Nine out of ten teachers would read your personal note aloud if you are stupid enough to pass it in the class. :-) Why on earth couldn't Harry wait for the break to read this article? Irene From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 3 21:02:27 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 21:02:27 -0000 Subject: Dirty Harry (was Harry Killing in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131913 "lupinlore" wrote: > But will Harry kill Voldemort at all? > And after all, what difference does it > really make HOW he kills Voldy? > Avada Kedavra, Magnum .357 .. I don't know about a Magnum 357, but if you're talking about a Magnum 44, well, the imagination runs wild: Harry walked forward until he was just inches from Voldemort's face and then with an air of quiet confidence said: "When I was one year old you tried to kill me, but you were unsuccessful Tom. Let's finish the matter, right here right now." Voldemort was so surprised by this remark he didn't say anything. "Why do you hesitate Mr. Tom Riddle Junior, it's a perfect time for you junior, I have no wand, I'm completely defenseless. Well , perhaps not completely, because you see, SOME CURSES NEED NO WAND! Hasn't your little studies in the Dark Arts taught you that yet?" Looking even paler than normal Voldemort said, "You're bluffing". In a low menacing voice Harry growled, "Well maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but seeing as how I'm talking about the guillotinious curse, the most powerful in the world that would slice your head clean off you have to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky today?" Voldemort, his eyes the size of saucers was speechless. With a evil grin on his face that made him look just a bit insane Harry leaned even closer, looked Voldemort straight in the eye, and whispered very slowly, "Well do you, junior?" Paralyzed with indecision Voldemort looked down at his wand just inches from his trembling hand. Then in a voice so loud it almost sounded like it had been magically amplified Harry shouted into Voldemort's ear, "DO IT! MAKE MY DAY!" Voldemort staggered back his ears ringing with pain, and then without another word he just turned around and walked away. Eggplant From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 3 21:47:19 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 21:47:19 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131914 "kempermentor" wrote: > If Harry accidently kills LV, I think > Harry can live with that much easier I think that is true, I also think that would be an extraordinarily boring way to end the series. I don't want Harry to kill Voldemort by letting him slip on a banana peal, or by killing him with love; No, I want Harry to disembowel Voldemort in a blood bath that would give Stephen King nightmares, and even more important I want the man who was once a sweet lovable little boy to discover to his horror that he rather enjoyed doing it. And most important of all I want all those pretentious self appointed guardians of the world's morals to be absolutely outraged at the way Rowling chose to end the series. The last thing in the world that I want is a general consensus that Rowling did ok ending things out the way she did. No way, I want people screaming she was corrupting the youth, I WANT CONTROVERSY! Eggplant From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 22:21:02 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:21:02 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131915 "delwynmarch" wrote: > 3. What is Lily's big secret? > She was a Metamorphmagus (have to answer *something*!) LOL! Not that this cannot be, actually it could be explained very well if Harry ends up being one too. The reason of my laughing is because I had a mental image of Lily not having red hair, after all... Can you imagine how all those parallel theories about "history repeating itself" would look then, if for instance, Lily had 'bushy brown', or 'straggly dirty blonde' or 'shiny black straight' hair?! Marcela From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jul 3 23:31:01 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:31:01 -0000 Subject: DD-MG/Kreachur/Goyle/150/SchoolSong/Seamus/ThatVoice/BlackHouse/Ginny/SK/Ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131916 KathyO predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131480 : << 1. Professor Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall are husband and wife. >> Even tho' Albus is 80 years older than Minerva? In your theory, were they already married in the first chapter of PS/SS, when they have that oddly formal conversation in Privet Drive? I'd think that if they were married, he would call her "Minerva" instead of "my dear Professor", especially considering they have no eavesdroppers. (And, hey, if there were married, shouldn't he have seen her Animagus form already?) << where he sat down on the wall next to the cat. He didn't look at it, but after a moment he spoke to it. "Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall." He turned to smile at the tabby, but it had gone. Instead he was smiling at a rather severe-looking woman who was wearing square glasses exactly the shape of the markings the cat had had around its eyes. She, too, was wearing a cloak, an emerald one. Her black hair was drawn into a tight bun. She looked distinctly ruffled. "How did you know it was me?" she asked. "My dear Professor, I've never seen a cat sit so stiffly." >> Anyway, I *know* that Albus and Minerva aren't married nor even having an affair, because it is just so totally OBVIOUS that McGonagall and Hooch are a couple, and have been for decades. And I think it's Poppy Pomfrey that is Albus's 'special friend'. Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/131486 : << Do I even have to address Kreacher here? Sirius' dislike of Kreacher shows that he did not treat him as his family did ( Kreacher loved Sirius' parents, didn't he?) >> Considering that Kreachur's great ambition was to be beheaded and have his head mounted on the wall beside his mother's, it may well be that his beloved Mrs Black treated him every bit as badly as Sirius did, and flogged him besides. John K wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131500 : << Perhaps even that his buddy Goyle is having a change of heart (why the heck isn't he on the inquisitorial squad?). >> Maybe his grades weren't good enough. Canon has references suggesting that he is stupider than Crabbe, such as the end of PS/SS: "They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, might be thrown out, but he had passed, too. It was a shame, but as Ron said, you couldn't have everything in life." Chys Lattes wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131578 : << Ok so DD is like 150 right? (But Harry doesn't know this yet.) >> Amanda replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131621 : << We don't know that Harry doesn't know. Canon is silent on this point. >> He didn't know back in October 2000 (that would be as of GoF, yes?): http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/100 0-scholastic-chat.htm << "About the Books: transcript of J.K. Rowling's live interview on Scholastic.com," Scholastic.com, 16 October 2000 Question: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall? J.K. Rowling responds: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.) >> Can I become a LOON by knowing Her interviews? Finwitch wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131678 : << (Just because we only 'heard' it once, doesn't mean they don't traditionally sing it *every* year, after the Feast - or the first morning). >> http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=104 << Q: We haven't heard the school song since the first book. Did the teachers rebel against it? A: Dumbledore called for the school song when he was feeling particularly buoyant, but times are becoming ever darker in the wizarding world. Should Dumbledore ever suggest a rousing encore, you may assume that he is on top form once more. >> Finwitch wrote again in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131715 : << I ask you, why did the teachers' smiles become fixed when Dumbledore came about with the song? >> Shaun replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131716 : << Well, that's not at all surprising in my view, I think it's just a reflection of how long the dinner had gone on at that time. >> I thought it was because the teachers knew from experience that Dumbledore always said: "Everyone pick their favorite tune," said Dumbledore, "and off we go!" and that instruction always produced a cacophony (described in the text as "bellowed") that hurt their musically delicate ears. Meri wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/131730 : << the real personality change we should be debating is Seamus Finnegan, who went from being the charming Gryffindor fourth banana to a raging dork-wad... >> I'm sure there must be Something about Seamus, because the Sorting Hat took a long time with him: SS p120 "'Finnigan, Seamus,' the sandy-haired boy next to Harry in the line, sat on the stool for almost a whole minute before the hat declared him a Gryffindor." Shell wwrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131752 : << In GOF, when Moody puts the Imperious Curse on Harry, he hears a voice in his head that helps him fight the curse. Who is this voice? >> Chris replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131770 : << I re-read the reference from GoF (snip): Moody: "He fought it, and he damn near beat it! We'll try that again, Potter, and the rest of you, pay attention-WATCH HIS EYES, THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE IT-very good Potter, very good indeed" p. 232, Scholastic PB. We have all discussed what we think about Lily and the constant references to Harry's eyes being exactly like hers. Could this voice, though speaking in first person, be a part of Lily in Harry? Could this be Lily's voice that is throwing off the imperius curse? >> This is one of my Obsessions (altho' I hadn't noticed the 'eyes' clue before, thanks, Chris): I have a theory. I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse, and an example of goodness he could learn from. I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 15 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. Emma wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/131761 : << Let me explain why I think Number 12 Grimmauld Place was Mrs Black's property rather than the Black ancestral seat: (snip all the 'house of my fathers' stuff which I, like a_svirn, explain as first cousin or sibling marriage) The following is pure speculation, and based almost entirely on too much reading of Jane Austen and George Eliot, but it also strikes me as implausible that such a grand family as the Blacks seem to be should have a house in a *street* with a *number* as their main seat. Betcha there's a country estate somewhere, or there was, and Number 12 Grimmauld Place was just their house in town, brought to the marriage by Mrs Black. >> But I think it *was* a grand house in the country when it was built, and Grimmauld Place was the name of the estate. It would have stopped being in the country as London grew over the centuries, and I propose it stopped being a grand estate because of the wizarding Statute of Secrecy: enforcers ruled that hiding too big a slice of London from the Muggles might raise Muggle suspecions. So the Blacks had to either sell most of their land to some Muggle(s) or create a Muggle 'front' company to rent it to Muggles. Now my fan-fic instincts have kicked in with a notion of traditional rivalry for supremacy between Malfoys and Blacks leading to a clever scheme by a 17th or 18th century Malfoy to manipulate the government and law to force the Blacks to give up their land so that the Malfoys are permanently on top. Adi wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/131771 : << All this talk about Ginny makes me ask: In the Forbidden Forest when the sextet converges and discusses flying to London, Ginny talks about the thestrals as if she prefectly knew about them. Did Hagrid show them to the fourth years too eventhough he said he was keeping them for fifth years only? >> We have canon for Ginny being one of the kids who visits Hagrid. In the CoS scene where Harry and Hermione take slug-spewing Ron to Hagrid's house, and later Hagrid shows off his pumpkins: "An Engorgement Charm, I suppose?" said Hermione, halfwayvbetween disapproval and amusement. "Well, you've done a good job onvthem." "That's what yer little sister said," said Hagrid, nodding at Ron. "Met her jus' yesterday." Hagrid looked sideways at Harry, his beard twitching. "Said she was jus' lookin' round the grounds, but I reckon she was hopin' she might run inter someone else at my house." He winked at Harry. "If yeh ask me, she wouldn' say no ter a signed -" So he may have shown (? can Ginny see them?) her the threstals even before he showed them to a CoMC class. KathyK in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131795 quoted << Phyllis From Message 87113: "I think Sirius switched with Peter in the hopes that both he (Sirius)and the Potters would survive. Sirius didn't suspect that Peter was Voldemort's spy, and he believed Peter to be the last person Voldemort would identify as the Potters' secret-keeper. So by switching to Peter, Sirius was trying to avoid being killed himself while still protecting the secrecy of the Potters' whereabouts.">> and added: << Not only, IMO, would this switch, had Peter not been the traitor, have solved the issue of possibly saving both the Potters and Sirius, but there was also a good possibility Peter would survive this plan as well since I don't think, even if LV had gone after Sirius, Sirius would have given Peter up because that would have meant betraying James. And even if Sirius did not escape LV in his pursuit of baby Harry, it still allows for the possibility that it could have been quite a while before their attention turned to Peter for information. >> But I wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/130985 : << Actually, I think it was a somewhat flawed plan in the first place. altho' Very brave of Sirius. He meant to be decoy/bait for LV; the bad guys who assumed he was the Secret Keeper would capture him and torture him to give up the secret, but even if they killed/destroyed him, he couldn't give them the Secret because he wasn't the Secret Keeper. But it didn't occur to him that he *could* tell them that Peter was the Secret Keeper *and* tell them where Peter was hiding. And whatever combination of Cruciatis, Imperius, Legilimency and Veritaserum they were using would override their impression that choosing a vulnerable weakling like Peter as Secret Keeper was too idiotic a thing for reasonably intelligent Potters to have done. >> To which, Gerry Festuco replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131014 : << But if they would know that Sirius disappeared and then Peter, they'd know their secret was discovered, they could find a new hiding place and a new secret keeper. If they discovered early enough Sirius was missing Peter could have found a new hiding place in time. >> Hermione's Kitten (great name!) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131867 : << I ship Harry with Susan Bones. >> I want Susan Bones for Ron. Harry can have Luna. And Hermione/Ginny 4eva! From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 3 23:28:50 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:28:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort spy? - Not Bertha Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131917 --- "Beth Currie" wrote: > Voldemort has just risen and is telling the Death Eaters > how he devised his plan to get at Harry: > > > < "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's > protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I > can touch him there....then, of course, there was the Quidditch > World Cup....I thought his protection might be weaker there, > away from his relations and Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong > enough to attempt kidnap in the midst of ...Ministry wizards." > > > > What jumped out at me on this re-read was, how could Voldemort know that > Harry was going to attend the Quidditch World Cup? > Beth aussie: When Harry left the Dursleys in COS in the flying car, DD sent owl mail to Harry to the Weasleys. Umbridge didn't send the Dementors to Little Whinging until Harry was away from 4 Privot and down at the park. Owl posts found Harry in PS/SS no matter where Vernon took the family. Hagrid could go to pick up Harry on ... well, wherever that rock was. My point is, just as the Weasleys have a clock to follow the movements of the family members, does Harry have something that can track him? It was probably in place after DD passed him to the Dursleys, so after Peter disappeared from the OOTP Not just anyone could use that tracking/spy devise. Snape couldn't locate Harry for hours when he flew to MOM in OOTP. Any thoughts on this? aussie Is there something that can locate From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 3 23:40:11 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:40:11 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131918 --- "delwynmarch" wrote: > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > Salazar Slytherin's Pensieve, which is hidden in the Chamber of Secrets. > > Del > ps: no need telling my husband I'm crazy, he already knows. aussie: yes, Yes, YES I KNEW there was a reason Uncle Vernon had to deal in drills. Harry has a source of mining drills to clear the other secret passages of the twins and explore the Chamber more thoroughly. I wonder how many more secret passages he can find following the Basalisk's pipes behind the walls. From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 23:58:16 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:58:16 -0000 Subject: Wouldn't it be fun if..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131919 S T U P I D T H E O R Y Just reading all the Snape Spy Stuff, wouldn't it be fun if Snape was a metamorphmagii and -THAT- is how he was spying on Voldemort? I can see it now...the real Snape isn't in Voldy's inner circle so working for DD won't be that big a deal to Lucius - after all they still have a LOT in common with regards to how things should be run. But Fake!Snape - the metamorphmagii - is in Voldemorts inner circle, dark mark and all, and no one suspects this mystery wizard of any double-agenting... After all, Tonk's had to be introduced for a reason. LOL. This is so stupid I am laughing at myself. I think I have had too much coffee. RoseRed From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 00:59:51 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 00:59:51 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131920 > >>Geoff: > I think, Alla, that you have created a contradiction in terms here. > My dictionary defines "underdog" as : A competitor thought to have > little chance of winning a fight or contest. > > >>Alla: > Oops, I may have created a contradiction, so let me try to clarify. > I thought Betcy was talking about Draco as underdog in relation to > whole Hogwarts, not just in terms of Draco/Harry relationship. Betsy Hp: No, you're right about what I was saying, Alla. Draco *is* the Hogwarts underdog, while Harry is the Hogwarts golden boy. Every single book plays this out. However, JKR cleverly sets it up so that Harry *appears* to be the underdog. She does it by having Harry *see* himself as the underdog, not recognizing his goldenboy status. How else can you explain Harry's nervousness at finding a date for the Yule ball when just about every single girl in Hogwarts is gagging to be his date? > >>Alla: > Here I most definitely see HRH as underdogs, because they have to > overcome external circumstances, which are often adversarial to > them. I gave examples in my previous post when everybody in school > is ready to turn on Harry when he does as much as a wrong step, > when Hermione has to work harder than many purebloods,simply > because she is a muggleborn. > Betsy Hp: When has Hermione *ever* suffered for being a muggleborn? I mean, sure *Draco* calls her names, but she is definitely the teachers favorite and certainly known as one of the smartest students of her class. As to Harry, yes, sometimes his popularity sours, but he's got a strong crowd around him (the Weasley twins support should never be sneered at) and even when he at his lowest his fame is strong. (A good example of that is the DA) > >>Alla: > Draco does not have to work for anything, he already has > everything, because of his family status. Betsy Hp: What everything? Draco wasn't able to bring a broom in first year, that was Harry. Draco doesn't have the top-of-the-line quidditch broom, Harry does. Draco's never won the Quidditch cup, Harry has. Draco's never won his house the House Cup, Harry has. No one chanted "we got Draco!" when Draco got sorted into Slytherin as the twins did for Harry. Draco doesn't have all the girls panting after him like Harry does. Draco doesn't get the Ministry of Magic smoothing over rules he's broken like Harry does. Draco doesn't have the headmaster in his back pocket like Harry does. Draco's name couldn't open every single door in the WW like Harry's can. Hell, the *only* thing Draco had going for him was a powerful father, and Harry's taken even that away from him. Now, Harry *does* pay a powerful price for all of his fame and glory. If his parents hadn't died, no one would know his name any more than they know Draco's. But Draco doesn't see that. He only sees Harry beating him, time and time again. And he sees the rules getting set aside for Harry time and time again. What JKR does, and she's very clever about it, is she doesn't let Harry see how powerful he really is in the WW. I think Harry is starting to get an inkling of his power, hence the DA and his interview with Rita Skeeter. (Hermione, clever girl that she is, figures out Harry's power before he does.) > >>Alla: > > Also, I don't even view Draco as underdog in his relationship with > Harry, because IMO even thought he loses, he is not supposed to > lose. > Harry often wins against all odds in the situation which Draco > himself starts and that is why it is such immense satisfaction for > me to see Draco loose over and over again. > Betsy Hp: See, that's because *Harry* thinks, "gosh, how could I possibly win?" but he's got the school's smartest witch, the WW's most powerful wizard, an incredibly powerful wizarding family, his family's money, and his own prodigy-like skills on his side. Draco only ever has his bravado and a good front. Which is all an underdog ever has. Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 01:46:30 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:46:30 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131921 > Betsy Hp: As to Harry, yes, sometimes his popularity sours, but he's > got a strong crowd around him (the Weasley twins support should never > be sneered at) and even when he at his lowest his fame is strong. (A > good example of that is the DA) Alla: Sometimes his popularity sours? I would say that whole school turns against him with the first possibility. Everybody in Hogwarts except his closest friends happily grasped the opportunity to hate Harry when it was revealed that he is a Parselmouth, everybody but his closest friends ( which really could be counted) hated Harry and were ready to say that he was crazy in OOP. Maybe this is semantics again, but I thought that "Golden boy" was suposed to be universally loved. Neither in CoS , nor in OOP was Harry universally loved by student population in Hogwarts, IMO. If you are evaluating Harry status as "Golden Boy" by the fact that he has TWO closest friends and two or three Gryffs who are faithful to him, then Draco can also be called a "Golden boy" because he at least has as many close and not very close but faithful friends as Harry has. And I don't remember one occasion when Draco was universally hated by student population, while Harry was at several. > > >>Alla earlier: > > Draco does not have to work for anything, he already has > > everything, because of his family status. > > Betsy Hp: > What everything? Draco doesn't have > the headmaster in his back pocket like Harry does. Alla: OK, I really would like more proof that Harry has "headmaster in his pocket", if you don't mind. Sure, Draco would LIKE to think that Harry is Headmaster's favorite, but I would call it one of his very many dellusions. :-) I guess the first incident of Dumbledore's favorable treatment of Harry was when he left Harry to grew up with Dursleys. The second one would be when Headmaster happily allowed three eleven year olds to go on the quest to face the Dark Lord. I suppose you would argue that Dumbledore did not know, but I think he really really did. ( I reposted Dicentra's post giving very detailed explanation on this topic) What else? Oh, another example of favorite treatment would be sending Harry and Hermione on the quest to save Sirius and the list goes on and on... Now, we are talking about underdogs in Hogwarts, right? So, NO, IMO Harry does not have headmaster in his pocket. Dumbledore claims to love Harry dearly, true and he probably does, but I am yet to see him treating Harry as his favorite student. Betsy: Draco's name > couldn't open every single door in the WW like Harry's can. Hell, > the *only* thing Draco had going for him was a powerful father, and > Harry's taken even that away from him. Alla: Huh? Draco's father name indeed can open any door in WW for him, IMO at least. As I said, I will not ever see Draco as underdog. There is way too much " he got himself into that situation" in any of Draco's loses for me to ever feel sorry for him. There is also this thing that I consider Draco's to be objectively bad guy, regardless of POV and I don't like voting for bad guy. Bad guy with a heart of gold , maybe, but not a villain or candidate for villainhood, which all Draco is for me now. Just my opinion, Alla. From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 02:24:26 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 02:24:26 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131922 Quite a good lot ones are out there! I'll add my own, with the caveat that precedent indicates a personal subject line more like Hekatesheadband and the Half-Wit Predictions. Time will tell. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to lose a Weasley or two, and I'm getting seriously concerned about - please, Ms Rowling, no - Hedwig. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? My money is on Godric Gryffindor. That said, I don't think the character or identity itself will be very important to the story. 3. What is Lily's big secret? OotP promotions promised major information about Lily - specifically her maiden name and that her eyes, as well as being green, were small and almond-shaped. This time, we'll learn the name of her pet Puffskein and what kind of ice cream she preferred. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape, based on the set-up in OotP (and yes, I think it will go badly). Alternate selections are the lion man - we'll call him Timmy - or Bill Weasley. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? If anyone, Ginny Weasley. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Most likely Amelia Bones - I don't think I'd enjoy one obstructionist evil bureaucracy plot after another! 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A watering trough for Cornelius Fudge's heliopaths, which are the source of all the flames seen on the Bloomsbury cover. (You don't think they'd allow for anything as obvious as a pensieve now, do you?;) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Unlikely, but remotely possible if Snape does get the DADA post and Neville's O.W.L. results are better than he might have expected. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Leaving aside the theory/practical counting ambiguities - DADA, Transfiguration, Charms, Potions, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, and probably History of Magic. Astronomy is probably right out, but I have a pet theory that he'll receive an "O" in Divination, as will Ron, based on their understanding of the real understanding of the subject matter, while devoted Div divas Lavender and Parvati will do poorly after swallowing all of Trelawney's nonsense. As for the five independent predictions - first, let me congratulate the moderators on thinking to limit it! I'm afraid more than a few jobs, social lives, and academic terms might otherwise be ruined. (What, do you think I'm referring to myself? Where on earth would you get such an idea?) 1. It will be Bill and Fleur's wedding that occasions Harry's early departure from Privet Drive. It's a dangerous and uncertain time, so there wouldn't be much in the way of long engagements and massive wedding preparations. 2. Serious trouble will become acquainted with Hermione - because she overestimates her abilities or has underestimated past opponents and situations. 3. Kreacher will be dead by the end of the book at the latest, and probably by the beginning. Hippogriffs are dangerous when they're angry or feel slighted. Kreacher went out of his way to injure Buckbeak. If the two of them are still in the same house... even J.K. Rowling could complete that equation. 4. At least one instance of Dumbledore's trust in or forgiveness of a widely disliked or suspected person will turn out to have been an error in judgment on his part. Bagman, Filch, Snape and an apparently repentant Percy Weasley are all possibilities. 5. OotP explored the potential of war/fear/chaos to bring out the worst in people. I don't doubt that this will be crucial in HBP as well, but I think, and hope, that we'll also begin to see how people can make the best of such situations, and how attention to greater needs can also, sometimes, bring out the best in people. -hekatesheadband (who is very excited about being proven wrong in just shy of two weeks) From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 03:04:39 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:04:39 -0000 Subject: Tonks as a plot device Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131923 Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? She would serve the interesting use of fooling us into thinking that a character performing an action in HBP really did so when in fact it was Tonks all along? In fact, an important character like Ginny or Hermione may appear to have died when in fact it was really Tonks in her metamorphmagus form imitating that character? tinglinger who has presented several neat theories in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots If you want to check out some interesting polls that relate to events in the potterverse, and the appeareance of characters who may not be what they appear to be, please feel free to click http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/polls From prncssme at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 03:40:40 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:40:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? In-Reply-To: <88.29eeb2ad.2ff9496d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131924 Neil asks: > Did JKR when she first wrote SS have parts in mind for every student she > sorted or did she just sort names and then later give those names bit parts in > the story. I tend to think the latter. She could hardly just sort Harry, > Ron, Neville and Hermione. It would have looked like everyone went to > Gryffindor. Princess Sara answers: I can't remember the source now but I know I saw something about JKR's notebooks full of backstory for almost every character in the book around the release of OotP. There were a couple of pics of them too, including student charts and other fun tidbits I wish I could leaf through. So, in answer to the question posed, I think that every sorting we've seen so far has been for a reason, whether we find out that reason in the books or not. It's kind of like how Dean thinks he's a muggleborn but he's actually half blood and the man he thinks is his father is really his stepfather. JKR wrote the back story and writes the character according to this story but has pretty much said it won't show up in the books. Every character written, from Susan Bones to Harry Potter, had a backstory before showing up in print. - Princess Sara From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 04:18:49 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 04:18:49 -0000 Subject: FILK: How Are Things in Barnes and Noble? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131925 How Are Things In Barnes and Noble? To the tune of How Are Things In Glocca Mora? http://www.hamienet.com/7246.mid The time is near The book is almost here Our wait is done, it's time for fun, so stand and cheer In times like these Excitement by degrees We make a date to stay up late, we're devotees So tell me please How are things in Barnes and Noble? Are there people acting strangely there? Do grownups dress in Hogwarts robes With pointed hats and other wizard wear? How are things in Barnes and Noble As the clock moves close to midnight there? Is the Starbucks in-store franchisee Calling to me? And is the Double-shot Frappachino Fizz All they say it is? Do I stay up late on Friday Or get mine the lazy way In the discount bin at Costco Saturday? How are things in Barnes and Noble This fine day? ~ Constance Vigilance From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 04:29:39 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 04:29:39 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Dumbledore listen to Steve? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131926 I was digging through the archives and I found this brilliant post by Steve (bboy_mn) that was written not long before the release of OoP. The points he makes are so obvious, I have to wonder (1) why I didn't think of it at all, (2) why DD didn't think of it, and (3) why Fudge didn't do it. 1 and 3 I can chalk up to the inadequacy of the person doing the thinking, but 2 bugs me. I should note that when Steve speaks of the Riddle house and graveyard he is not equating them. That is clarified in a later post. So, for your mental exercize: ********* Message #42779: Steve (bboy_mn) writes: Certainly, after hearing Harry's dreams and hearing what happened to Harry in the cemetery; Dumbledore must have figured out that Voldemort has been staying at the Riddle Mansion. True now that Voldemort is omnipotent (at least in his own mind), he probably won't hang around there much longer, but I would think that it would be worthwhile sending people to investigate. For one thing, there may be clues that would substantiate Harry's story; like disturbance to Riddle's grave, damage to headstones, the fresh foot prints of a couple dozen death eaters, eye or ear witnesses, or other clues that may have been left in the mansion. One thought is that Harry has never been to this place, but he has seen it and can describe it, and direct them to the room that Voldemort was staying in. Of course, this is all Book 5 stuff, and may very well come to pass. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn ********** Ginger again: Aside from the fact that DD is a fictional character and Steve is (as far as we know) real ;0), does anyone have any idea of why DD *didn't* do the very things Steve suggested? Why didn't the MOM? Surely there must have been some investigation into Cedric's death, and all leads followed on that. Did Fudge (or the MoM) actually do this and find evidence? Did they supress this evidence? Does Amos know about this? Is this what costs Fudge his job? I smell a plot bunny. Steve, I hope you don't mind me reprinting this. Ginger, wondering just how corrupt/inept the Fudge administration actually is. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 04:47:04 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 04:47:04 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131927 > >>Betsy Hp: > As to Harry, yes, sometimes his popularity sours, but he's got a > strong crowd around him (the Weasley twins support should never be > sneered at) and even when he at his lowest his fame is strong. (A > good example of that is the DA) > >>Alla: > Sometimes his popularity sours? I would say that whole school turns > against him with the first possibility. > Betsy Hp: That is the downside to fame. And I'm not trying to argue that Harry has an easy way of it. But even when many at the school think he's evil (CoS -- parselmouth) he's got powerful allies (the Weasley twins were great), or when half the school thinks he's crazy (OotP) he's still got enough popularity to pull together a subversive club. Could Draco do any of that? I doubt it. He just doesn't have that kind of pull. > >>Alla: > If you are evaluating Harry status as "Golden Boy" by the fact that > he has TWO closest friends and two or three Gryffs who are faithful > to him, then Draco can also be called a "Golden boy" because he at > least has as many close and not very close but faithful friends as > Harry has. > Betsy Hp: As to Draco's friends, we really know nothing about them or their loyalty. Draco can entertain a crowd, but when the chips are down will anyone stand with him? Frankly, I don't think canon tells us either way. It will be interesting to see where Draco stands in his house in HBP. But as to Harry as golden boy -- no, he's not a true golden boy (like Sirius or James) because Harry *really* doesn't like the spotlight. But like it or not, it's on him. The girls do swoon, the boys do envy, and he's got the coolest stuff (rare and expensive invisibility cloak, best quidditch broom on the market). > >>Betsy Hp: > Draco doesn't have the headmaster in his back pocket like Harry > does. > >>Alla: > OK, I really would like more proof that Harry has "headmaster in > his pocket", if you don't mind. Betsy Hp: Come *on*, Alla. What other students get the sort of attention from Dumbledore that Harry does? Does Dumbledore routinely visit *their* bedsides when they're sick? Or return invisibility cloaks lost while breaking school rules? Does Dumbledore love the other students like he loves Harry? Do you think Draco got called into the headmaster's office to get a comforting talk about how it's terrible that he's lost his father, but Dumbledore will be there for him? Of course, Harry doesn't have Dumbledore wrapped around his finger (or at least, I don't *think* he does). But he is definitely something special to Dumbledore. To try and protest otherwise is... well, I think it's an uphill argument. You at the very least have to twist some canon. > >>Alla: > > I guess the first incident of Dumbledore's favorable treatment of > Harry was when he left Harry to grew up with Dursleys. > The second one would be when Headmaster happily allowed three > eleven year olds to go on the quest to face the Dark Lord. > > What else? Oh, another example of favorite treatment would be > sending Harry and Hermione on the quest to save Sirius and the list > goes on and on... Betsy Hp: The list of *twisted* canon goes on and on. But you're arguing for a cruel and manipulative Dumbledore, a cold-blooded Dumbledore, which *might* be true (I personally doubt it) but is still merely a theory. As per cold, hard, canon Dumbledore has involved himself in Harry's life far more than in any other student's. > >>Betsy Hp: > Draco's name couldn't open every single door in the WW like Harry's > can. > >>Alla: > Huh? Draco's father name indeed can open any door in WW for him, > IMO at least. Betsy Hp: Erm... where do you get that idea? Seriously, point out some canon. Because yes, Malfoy is rich and using his gold to influence *Fudge* but as Neville pointed out in OotP, Malfoy's family isn't all *that* connected. (The bit about knowing the OWLs judges.) When the Malfoys were in the bookshop with Harry and Lockhart, Lockhart pulled *Harry* into a picture with him. He didn't grab Lucius. I don't recall strangers coming up to shake *Lucius's* hand. When it comes to fame in the WW Harry has the Malfoys beat. Every piece of canon points to that fact. > >>Alla: > As I said, I will not ever see Draco as underdog. There is way too > much " he got himself into that situation" in any of Draco's loses > for me to ever feel sorry for him. > There is also this thing that I consider Draco's to be objectively > bad guy, regardless of POV and I don't like voting for bad guy. Bad > guy with a heart of gold , maybe, but not a villain or candidate > for villainhood, which all Draco is for me now. Betsy Hp: But neither of those things have anything to do with being the underdog. It doesn't matter how a situation comes about or who's the good guy or bad guy. All you have to do to be the underdog is to have less going for you than the other guy. And in every single conflict between Harry and Draco, Harry has the advantage. Betsy Hp From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 05:35:29 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 05:35:29 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Dumbledore listen to Steve? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131928 "quigonginger" wrote: > does anyone have any idea of why DD > *didn't* do the very things Steve > suggested?[examine the Riddle house etc] I have no doubt that Dumbledore *did* take a look at the old Riddle house after Harry's experience, but that but there was no point mentioning it because the results of his investigation were inconclusive. This was partially because Voldemort covered his tracks very well but mostly because the Ministry just was not interested in hearing evidence that the dark lord was alive. Fudge did not want to learn the truth, he wanted to be comfortable and believing Voldemort was dead accomplished that. Eggplant From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon Jul 4 06:00:10 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:00:10 -0000 Subject: clues to the cover? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131929 hi, I was just browsing through the first book and something hagrid said caught my eye. Introducing Leaky to harry , he says it's a famous place. Why is it famous? There are after all other bars in winzarding world. So why should this dingy bar be famouse? And is it a small coincidence that the cover of the HBP fatures something that looks like a cauldron that is leaking? Bye Adi From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 06:38:42 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 06:38:42 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131930 Here is my latest theory that can explain a lot of what happened during the time of the First Wizard War and events leading up to the death of the Potters..... THE SORCERER'S STONE - what we should know -------------------------------------------- 1. Albus Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel are currently partners in their alchemy practice (SS 103 - frog card) 2. When Harry tells Hermione about Dumbledore's frog card, she rushes off to find an "enormous old book" that says that "NIcholas Flamel is the only known maker of the Sorcerer's Stone." (SS 220) 3. If the book is that old, it might have been written ages ago before Dumbledore was Flamel's partner or even a wizard. Ol' Albus is only 150 or so, not quite the 665 that Flamel was when that "old" book was written. 4. Therefore, though we are led to believe that there was only ONE sorcerer's stone, that may have been the case long ago when the book was published. It might not necessarily be the case now. 5. Ron adds "no wonder we couldn't find Flamel in the Study of Recent Developments in Wizardry.... he's not exactly recent if he's 665, is he?" --- and THAT WAS AT THE TIME THE "OLD" BOOK WAS PUBLISHED. So.... since Dumbledore and Flamel are partners it is not unreasonable to conjecture that - a- Dumbledore now also knows how to make the stone - Flamel taught him b- There may be more than just "the one stone currently in existence" - that was at the time of the old book, not now. How does this play out? Please read on..... IMPLICATIONS FOR JAMES LILY AND HARRY THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY -------------------------------------------- 1. After James and Lily leave Hogwarts, they are both hired to work as apprentices for the Dumbledore Flamel Alchemy partnership. There is no canon for this so i am making a reach here .... However, I don't have to reach very far as you may agree by the time you finish reading this. If this occupational choice is valid however, a lot of things fall into place quite nicely........ 2. Because they are apprentices for Dumbledore and Flamel, the pay is quite good (ya think?). They can get all the gold they could ever want from the Sorcerer's Stone, gold that is not Leprechaun's Gold, gold that can be stored in a vault in Gringott's and spent. Or in the Potter's unfortunate case, saved for Harry. And of course the gold would have been kept in Gringott's - houses burn down don't they? (SS 63). Now we have a reasonable guess for how the Potters got their fortune. Remember, it is not the ONLY possible guess, but it is not one that can be ruled out as ridiculous... 3. Being Head Boy and Head Girl and from Gryffindor, Lily and James seem to be the perfect choice for apprentices. But why would they be needed? In fact why are they VITAL for the job? Here is where the second stretch comes in, but once again, if you buy into it, the payoff (not in Leprechaun Gold) is huge........ 4. Remember that during the time the Potters graduated from Hogwarts, Voldemort was near the height of his powers. The wizarding world, and the order in particular (moony's photo and explanation to Harry in OOP support this) was in deep trouble. As Lupin says to Molly in OOP ch 9 "last time we were outnumbered 20 to 1 by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one.....". Outnumbered and outgunned - the order was indeed in trouble. So what to do ? what to do? Well, now we will find out why the Potter's were REALLY hired as apprentices of the partnership..... 5. Dumbledore had a plan that he had tried once before with mixed results (more on this later .....). Remember that the second property of the Sorcerer's stone is that "It also produced the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal". Now what if Harry was given the Elixir of Life, and Voldemort has this prophecy that he heard about Harry, and he tries to kill Harry who now is immortal ---- what would happen to the target of that spell -- or its caster??? An irresistable force against an immovable object........ an AK cast on an eternal being !!!!! Would that spell not create an effect similar to a priori incantatum - or better yet, rebound automatically on the caster? So in other words, Dumbledore set a trap for Voldemort -- Harry always was the intended target (or more accurately the weapon). Dumbledore defeats the dark wizard and the Wizarding world is saved. But something goes horribly wrong and James and Lily are killed - despite Hagrid's rant CAR CRASH! roared Hagrid, .... How could a car crash kill Lily an' James? It's an outrage! A scandal. If only he knew..... or did he? And Harry survives as a boy, but a boy who is alchemistically enhanced. Enhanced in such a way that he must be kept away from wizards until he is ready to deal with it - an isolated super-wizard. So now you have the Lily & James are Alchemists Theory as described above, and here is why it makes even more sense....... You might ask why James and Lily would agree to such a thing? Even for all the gold in Gringot's! Two reasons. First, the wizarding world and the order are doomed if nothing is done, and second BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND SUCCEEDED..... almost. ----- more to follow ----- but one last point ... in my original Manxmouse theory I talked about Harry being totally artificial - I am not so sure about that theory now and feel more comfortable with "alchemically enhanced" rather than Pinocchio - though either are supported ...... however, Voldemort does say to Harry (ss 293-294) ".. and ONCE I HAVE THE ELIXIR OF LIFE I WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE A BODY OF MY OWN ...." so there is another little property of the stone we should be aware of. tinglinger who has presented several neat theories in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots If you want to check out some interesting polls that relate to events in the potterverse, and the appeareance of characters who may not be what they appear to be, please feel free to click http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/polls From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jul 4 05:59:59 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 05:59:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > I think that is true, I also think that would be an extraordinarily > boring way to end the series. I don't want Harry to kill Voldemort by > letting him slip on a banana peal, or by killing him with love; No, I > want Harry to disembowel Voldemort in a blood bath that would give > Stephen King nightmares, and even more important I want the man who > was once a sweet lovable little boy to discover to his horror that he > rather enjoyed doing it. And most important of all I want all those > pretentious self appointed guardians of the world's morals to be > absolutely outraged at the way Rowling chose to end the series. The > last thing in the world that I want is a general consensus that > Rowling did ok ending things out the way she did. No way, I want > people screaming she was corrupting the youth, I WANT CONTROVERSY! > > Eggplant Well, there seems to be an underlying assumption here that a good ending would necessarily be a controversial one and vice versa. I don't think that is necessarily the case at all. Like it or not, cliches become cliches for a reason -- they work. And there are also good reasons people don't end books in certain ways -- it's because those endings, original as they might be, don't work very well (at least for a given audience at a given time). But, all that aside, is the type of ending you describe one that Rowling, from what we know of her, is likely to produce? True, she has said that she must write the books to her own satisfaction, but would her satisfaction produce something along the lines described above? Well, from what she has said in public, and most at least of what she has written, it doesn't seem so. In fact, Rowling in most of her opinions and approaches seems much closer to those guardians of the public morality than many people would like -- including the guardians of public morality (much to Rowling's amusement, it seems). As she said of the Christian Right, "They don't seem to want me on their side." Which implies that, in her own mind, she IS largely on their side. JKR may well surprise everyone with the ending. It may well be controversial. But from what we have seen of her mind so far, I wouldn't bet a lot of money that the controversy will be along the lines described above. I can see Harry having to kill, and more than once. But I don't think he will ever like it, and I doubt that Rowling's ending will give King nightmares. But, we will see. Lupinlore From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Mon Jul 4 09:48:03 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:48:03 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131932 Great theory! I was trying to think how it would fit in with Voldemort's possession of HArry in OOTP. If I remember Harry thought he was dying, and DD said that his love for Sirius forced Voldemort out of Harry's body. But perhaps this is a smokescreen (as is Lily's sacrifice) and actually it is HArry's immortality that eventually forced Voldemort to vacate HArry. One question though - does Voldemort now realise Harry is immortal? My theory was always thus - Slytherin & Gryffindor were great friends. They became blood brothers i.e swore an oath in their own blood. Imagine how powerful that bond would be in the wizarding world. This bond is then passed down to the descendants. MAy explain the mental link between Harry & Voldemort. May also explain the look of triumph in DD, when VOldemort used HArry's blood to reincarnate! Finally it may also explain the comment made by JKR i.e. she said that DD said he didn't kill Voldy because there are worse things than death, but it wasn't the real reason. Perhaps Voldy & Harry are linked insuch a way, that to kill one, kills the other. This certainly seems to be what Voldemort is implying when he possesses Harry, and there is also evidence in the Prophecy to back this up!! Brothergib From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 10:26:39 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:26:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort spy? - flint or hint in GOF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131933 > Now Maryblue: > > Right, Bertha, how could I have forgotten her? > > In any case, this makes me think: how early that summer did Bertha > disappear? The QWC plans must have been well stablished no matter > how early she left for her trip, but did the Weasleys have their > tickets all that time? When I read the passage when Arthur Weasley > introduces Bangman to the kids and tells them that he got them the > tickets, to me it sounded like a last minute thing, not something > that happened very early that summer. Don't have the books with me, but doesn't Ron say something about taking Harry to see a professional Quidditch match at the end of PoA? Whether he does or not, I'm betting that Arthur scored those tickets fairly early in the process, possibly using Harry's name as leverage (You know Ludo, Harry's never seen a real match. It would be such a thrill for him!). Bertha would have eaten this right up. Amiable Dorsai From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 12:17:38 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:17:38 -0000 Subject: My Prediction Contest Entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131934 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore, by a close margin over Hagrid or Ron. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily's sister, Petunia, was also a witch who somehow destroyed her magical ability. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix. I question whether his surname is "Felicis." 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Don't know. Sure, it could be Susan Bones's mother, but she's really just a name at this point. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is the Mother Pensieve, which is in a location under the castle we've never seen before. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. He aced his OWL. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He got at least "acceptable" in all of them, E's and O's in Charms, Potions, and DADA. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Petunia is, or was, a witch. 2. Harry will again face the kidnaping of a friend by the DE's, (as in Sirius) only this time it will be real. 3. All of Harry's friends are now targets. 4. An attempt will be made on Trelawney by the DE's. 5. Draco will not finish the year as a student. Jim Ferer From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 4 13:31:11 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:31:11 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131936 Geoff: I am coming to the conclusion that Alla, Betsy and I are not all singing from the same hymnsheet on the question of who is or is not an underdog. Alla has presented a number of cases where Harry is not "the best thing since sliced bread" in the eyes of his house or the school. To take a handful of cases, in PS, the Trio lose house points because of the Norbert incident and go through a period when other Gryffindors are quite hostile towards them for some time afterwards. In COS, after the Duelling Club meeting where Harry is revealed as a Parseltongue, he goes through a period when he is treated with grave suspicion by many students from all the houses. In GOF there is a great deal of resentment that he has managed to enter and there is a feeling that he wangled this so that he might be able to win despite the restrictions. And in OOTP, of course, the campaign by the Daily Prophet leads many people to believe he is a liar and is possibly mad. But... None of these put him into an "underdog" situation. To repeat my definition of a couple of days ago: an underdog is "a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest." None of the above events are basically competitive. They are not putting Harry up against someone who is more qualified than him to actually "win" something. Again, Harry has, in the eyes of Gryffindor, a generally good track record. He has helped to bring success to the Gryffindor Quidditch team, the Trio gained a large number of bonus points in PS, and he has the "Boy Who Lived" cachet following him around. It can be argued that, when it comes to Voldemort, he is the underdog but he has done pretty well in facing him down. If you include Tom Riddle in COS, the match statistics are: Played - 5. Results - Harry 5, Voldemort 0. The only place I think we have ever been encouraged to look on him as an underdog within Hogwarts is in GOF. Matched against Viktor Krum, Fleur Delacour and Cedric Diggory, he is younger, smaller physically and not so mature and one might presume that he was not the odds-on favourite. However, I stand by my belief which I expressed in message 131908 that, in other areas, Draco is far more the underdog than Harry. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 13:36:05 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:36:05 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131937 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" > wrote: > > > > > I think that is true, I also think that would be an extraordinarily > > boring way to end the series. I don't want Harry to kill Voldemort > by > > letting him slip on a banana peal, or by killing him with love; No, > I > > want Harry to disembowel Voldemort in a blood bath that would give > > Stephen King nightmares, and even more important I want the man who > > was once a sweet lovable little boy to discover to his horror that > he > > rather enjoyed doing it. And most important of all I want all those > > pretentious self appointed guardians of the world's morals to be > > absolutely outraged at the way Rowling chose to end the series. The > > last thing in the world that I want is a general consensus that > > Rowling did ok ending things out the way she did. No way, I want > > people screaming she was corrupting the youth, I WANT CONTROVERSY! > > > > Eggplant KarentheUnicorn's reply: Controversy......hum..Well I can give you controversy, you don't need JKR to write it, I thought thats what Fanfics were for. Though JKR has said its going to be a bloodbath, I personally will be disappointed if she goes off an kills all the characters, or does something like what you are describing. Besides, you make it sound more like you want a Jason friday the 13th movie.... Meh, I guess what I'm saying is, If JKR did all that you are asking for, I believe it would be a totally different book, so, maybe she will do what you are asking....meh...I really don't know. I will also say that a friend of mine pointed out to me just the other day that the series has always been a bloodbath, It starts out with death, Harry's Parents were the first killed before the actual first book began. So, much like the star wars series, Is the first book actually the begining of the story??? We get a lot of backhistory as to the killing Voldemort did, before he got taken down by a 1 year old.....So, to put it plainly there has been a bloodbath going on already, each book has gotten a little more mature, people start dieing, but, does one have to have a bunch of characters killed to actually make it a bloodbath? Isn't one person getting wacked....generally speaking...a bloodbath?? Well, I suppose for a fictional story its not...... Some think maybe Harry will be killed in the last book, meh, maybe she will kill him off, but, it would seem a waste to me, we get to see this little kid have a sucky life, then, he gets partly happy while at school...oh yea, except for that Voldemort fellow always interupting his fun at school, then he has to go back to live with muggles who hate him....then, after 7 years of simi happiness, makin friends etc..he dies and saves the world....but..when you're dead you're dead....so...hum. I suppose JKR could make it work where I would not be so disappointed....meh.... Plus, who is to say the bloodbath means main characters? I seem to remember JKR saying Voldemort leaves will be leaving most of the dirty work up to his death eaters....so, who is to say...a lot of the Hogwart's students parents might end up getting killed. There are a lot more folks out there that can be done in, to make the story still be a bloodbath...without us actually having nightmares about it.... Of course Voldemort hasn't really given me any nightmares yet....like the classic evil guy....they always have to explain things to the hero before they fulfill there evil plan...Can I ask why?....meh anyway. I personally want to see each and every of my favorite characters end up with a happy life/happy ending...thats my personal hope for the series. I don't see that a bloodbath would be all that interesting, why must people consider that a happy ending is boring? Why must we always have...a Bloodbath? A happy ending can be just as interesting if you ask me, but I guess everyone wants a car crash....yea..till you are involved in one and your car insurance goes up...Yea..then your not so happy are you..... ok..I am making no since at all..but anyway...Down with Bloodbath...UP with Happy endings for all...or at least a little better than when we started the series. Harry-becomes even more famous, sells a line of hair care products. Yes you to can have that messy cool look that our little hero has. Hermione-Goes on vacation to America one summer, hangs out with a group of normal teenage girls..come back to Hogwarts the coolest most fashionable teen and...doesn't take herself so seriously anymore. Attacks Ron..and basicly they get married and have lots of little Weasley's....or...her and Victor...she likes the dark dude, they get married and have a bunch of really good looking talented wizards. And the only thing they fight about is where to send the kids when they are old enough to go to school. Ron-joins a Professional Quidditch Team...makes loads of cash...girls swoon....guys admire.....he is happy.. Draco-The only happy ending I can see for him, he escapes his parents, he meets a really hot muggle girl...falls in love...learns to not be such a git...and lives happily ever after. Not that he's one of my favorite characters. Lupin-Meets a really hot werwolf witch...nuff said. Molly and Arthur-Since all the kids are out of the house-they do something without the kids, remember why they were in love in the first place...does the empty nest dance cause they don't have to support the kids anymore...and live happily ever after. Sirius-.....curse you JKR..you killed him!!...waits for book 6...hopes shes got something better. Voldemort-...kill him...ok..I will admit..a little bloodbath isn't so bad after all. Lucius Malfoy-....ok..so maybe bloodbath is too good for him...torture him, make him loose his magical powers. Then he will understand how muggles live...Hay...Justice can be happy... Peter-...gets stuck in rat form....YAY! Dumbledore-Lives to be a lot older...hopefully. Hagrid-Leaves Hogwarts and Opens a Zoo for magical creatures. Professor Snape-....learns to not take everything so seriously...meh...he needs a FanFic ending if you ask me, meets a really hot witch that doesn't take any crap off him...they go on to have a house full of little Snapes, and he learns to actually like kids...well..his own anyway. The rest of the students-survive to graduate from Hogwarts. Minerva McGonagall-learns to not take everything so seriously...ok..I just did that ending didn't I. Me-leaves series feeling good about it, and is not disappointed with ending, and its glad she invested the time to become a HP fan... nuff said. KarentheUnicorn From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Mon Jul 4 08:54:59 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:54:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050704085459.15053.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131938 tinglinger wrote: Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? She would serve the interesting use of fooling us into thinking that a character performing an action in HBP really did so when in fact it was Tonks all along? In fact, an important character like Ginny or Hermione may appear to have died when in fact it was really Tonks in her metamorphmagus form imitating that character? Fitzov: I'm sure you're right and we won't have heard the end of Metamorphmagi. But possibly the bigger clue is Tonks' remark that Metamorphmagi are 'born, not made'. Perhaps it runs in families, and if so, which of Tonks' relatives could turn out to be one? My betting is on her aunt Narcissa who, now that Lucius is in Azkaban, might prove to be a far more dangerous adversary than her husband. Or possibly her cousin, Draco? Now there's an interesting relationship! Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smilingator81 at aol.com Mon Jul 4 12:04:05 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:04:05 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Dumbledore listen to Steve? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131939 "quigonginger" wrote: does anyone have any idea of why DD *didn't* do the very things Steve suggested?[examine the Riddle house etc] "eggplant107" wrote: I have no doubt that Dumbledore *did* take a look at the old Riddle house after Harry's experience, but that but there was no point mentioning it because the results of his investigation were inconclusive. This was partially because Voldemort covered his tracks very well but mostly because the Ministry just was not interested in hearing evidence that the dark lord was alive. Fudge did not want to learn the truth, he wanted to be comfortable and believing Voldemort was dead accomplished that. smilingator: First of all, I would just like to say that I love reading Steve's posts... he always makes me think! I don't think DD doubted Harry's story of what happened at the graveyard for a second. In fact, DD knew that something was up around the Riddle House because he had heard about the mysterious murder of Frank the Gardener. If DD did investigate the Riddle House and the graveyard and found clues, I think he is giving the information to the Order and NOT to the MoM because of Fudge. Fudge's lack of a back bone was apparent to me in CoS, when he put Hagrid in Azkaban with no evidence and only the "pressure" from the school governors. In PoA, Fudge did not bother to listen to Harry and Hermione's tale of what happened the evening Sirius exposed himself to his Godson. In GoF, Fudge allowed the Dementors to *Kiss* Barty Jr. before the escaped prisoner had a chance to tell Fudge his story (and the circumstances around this still bother me, but that is another post). All in all, I think Fudge is more terrified of losing his position (which is going to happen somehow anyway) than the fact that the LV may be back. Not to blame EVERYTHING on Fudge, but if only he had listened to Harry and Hermione in PoA, then perhaps things could have been different. Fudge is just so sure that DD is after his job, a position that DD turned down in order to remain at Hogwarts. In Fudge's mind, the story of LV returning was an elaborate conspiracy to have him kicked out of office. The poor paranoid man. So, I agree with eggplant, I doubt Fudge was interested in investigating the Riddle property because he was afraid that he would find out that LV had indeed come back. As the saying goes, "De Nial" is not just a river in Egypt... Just my thoughts From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 14:44:51 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 14:44:51 -0000 Subject: Harry - Dumbledore's favorite? Was: Re: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131940 > > >>Betsy Hp earlier: > > Draco doesn't have the headmaster in his back pocket like Harry > > does. > > > >>Alla earlier: > > OK, I really would like more proof that Harry has "headmaster in > > his pocket", if you don't mind. > > Betsy Hp: > Come *on*, Alla. What other students get the sort of attention from > Dumbledore that Harry does? Does Dumbledore routinely visit *their* > bedsides when they're sick? Or return invisibility cloaks lost while > breaking school rules? Does Dumbledore love the other students like > he loves Harry? Do you think Draco got called into the headmaster's > office to get a comforting talk about how it's terrible that he's > lost his father, but Dumbledore will be there for him? Alla: Well, we don't know whether Dumbledore visits other students bedsides or not, right? For all we know he may. And I said in my previous post - Dumbledore CLAIMS that he loves Harry, that is absolutely true, but so far his ACTIONS do not really prove to me that he does. Please, don't get me wrong. I would be perfectly fine if Dumbledore would indeed treat Harry as his favorite student . I happen to think that since Harry has the burden of saving WW from Voldie, he is well overdue some extra love and attention, but I just don't see it. > > >>Alla earlier: > > > > I guess the first incident of Dumbledore's favorable treatment of > > Harry was when he left Harry to grew up with Dursleys. > > The second one would be when Headmaster happily allowed three > > eleven year olds to go on the quest to face the Dark Lord. > > > > What else? Oh, another example of favorite treatment would be > > sending Harry and Hermione on the quest to save Sirius and the list > > goes on and on... > > Betsy Hp: > The list of *twisted* canon goes on and on. But you're arguing for a > cruel and manipulative Dumbledore, a cold-blooded Dumbledore, which > *might* be true (I personally doubt it) but is still merely a > theory. As per cold, hard, canon Dumbledore has involved himself in > Harry's life far more than in any other student's. Alla: Twisted canon? In any one of the examples I gave, had I twisted the facts somehow? Again, please do not get me wrong. I HATE Puppetmaster!Dumbledore, I don't want to believe in Puppetmaster! Dumbledore. I am keeping my fingers crossed that JKR is not shooting for Puppetmaster!Dumbledore. According to her interviews, I don't think she does. But and this is a very BIG "BUT", I do think that all those actions of Dumbledore could be interpreted as Puppetmaster!Dumbledore. Sure, Dumbledore involved himself in Harry's life, but does it mean that it happened because he cares for Harry as a person, or because he wants to have his weapon ready to strike at Voldemort ? If this is the second option, then NO, I don't think I would concede that Harry his favorite student. If someone would claim to love me and do to me those things that Dumbledore did to Harry, I would not ever agree that this person loves me. Now, if Dumbledore indeed loves Harry as much as he said at the end of OOP, it is perfectly fine with me, but I want to see some ACTIONS of his in HBP to prove that. I am cautiously optimistic because of HBP covers of course. Just my opinion, Alla. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 15:10:08 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 15:10:08 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131941 "tinglinger" wrote: > Here is my latest theory that can explain a lot of what happened > during the time of the First Wizard War and events leading up to > the death of the Potters..... > So.... since Dumbledore and Flamel are partners it is not > unreasonable to conjecture that - > a- Dumbledore now also knows how to make the stone - Flamel > taught him > b- There may be more than just "the one stone currently in > existence" - that was at the time of the old book, not now. > How does this play out? Please read on..... > > IMPLICATIONS FOR JAMES LILY AND HARRY > THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY > -------------------------------------------- 5. Dumbledore had a plan that he had tried once before with mixed results (more on this later .....). Remember that the second property of the Sorcerer's stone is that "It also produced the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal". Now what if Harry was given the Elixir of Life, and Voldemort has this prophecy that he heard about Harry, and he tries to kill Harry who now is immortal ---- what would happen to the target of that spell -- or its caster??? An irresistable force against an immovable object........ an AK cast on an eternal being !!!!! Would that spell not create an effect similar to a priori incantatum - or better yet, rebound automatically on the caster? So in other words, Dumbledore set a trap for Voldemort -- Harry always was the intended target (or more accurately the weapon). Dumbledore defeats the dark wizard and the Wizarding world is saved. But something goes horribly wrong and James and Lily are killed - despite Hagrid's rant CAR CRASH! roared Hagrid, .... How could a car crash kill Lily an' James? It's an outrage! A scandal. If only he knew..... or did he? And Harry survives as a boy, but a boy who is alchemistically enhanced. Enhanced in such a way that he must be kept away from wizards until he is ready to deal with it - an isolated super-wizard. So now you have the Lily & James are Alchemists Theory as described above, and here is why it makes even more sense....... You might ask why James and Lily would agree to such a thing? Even for all the gold in Gringot's! Two reasons. First, the wizarding world and the order are doomed if nothing is done, and second BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND SUCCEEDED..... almost. > So now you have the Lily & James are Alchemists Theory > as described above, and here is why it makes even more sense....... > > You might ask why James and Lily would agree to such a thing? > Even for all the gold in Gringot's! Two reasons. > First, the wizarding world and the order are doomed if nothing is > done, and second BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND > SUCCEEDED..... almost. **Marcela now: While I don't quite agree with your theory of Dumbledore training Lily and James as apprentices, it is fact that Harry Potter *is* the "philosophical child" in alchemical imagery - more on that following below. But first I'll address the reason for my disagreement: the prophecy was known a few months/days before Harry was born, how on earth could Dumbledore, James and Lily have predicted such? What about the part of Dumbledore's explanation in OoTP, about him not being sure which of the boys was the prophecized one? (Harry or Neville?). Unless there was a previous prophecy (not by S.Trelawny, perhaps her ancestor's?), it would have been very odd/unrealistic for James and Lily to make such a deal with Dumbledore, it sounds way too machiavelian for anybody's taste... (it would be like the infamous "I'm your father" in the Star Wars story, :)) And according to your theory, Harry would not be the product of Love, but of Calculation... Now I'll quote parts from "A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery", by Lindy Abraham. So warning alert... Philosophical Child: the philosopher's stone when it is first bron fromt he union of Sol and Luna at the chemical wedding. ... The Stone is known as the orphan and the alchemist plays the role of its foster-parent. During the cibation, the alchemist must gradually nourish the infant Stone with 'milk' and 'meat' (the white and red mercurial waters) so that it may become sweet and strong. When it has grown to maturity this infant has the power to conquer all disease and transform all things to perfection. Arthur Dee wrote of the infant Stone's maturation into the spiritual warrior: 'he will become a king, stronger than a king, and so stout in Battell, that he alone being a most powerful Conqueror, will obtain the Victory against ten thousand Enemies' (FC,110). Also, in same book but about the Philosopher's Stone: It is generally thought that the elixir and philospher's stone are of the same essence, the elixir being in liquid form, the Stone being in solid or powder form. ... The Stone is endowed with many names, some of which are: elixir, tinture, medicine, panacea, balsam, arcanum, quintessence, tree, rose, lily, hyacinth, east, morning, living fountain, white stone, red stone, ruby, crystal, diamond, sapphire, Adam, paradise, Sophia, hermaphrodite, man, red king, red lion, microcosm, salvator, servator, filius macrocosmi, homunculus, sun, son, daughter, orphan, bird, Hermes bird and phoenix. John Read has suggested that the alchemical authors seem to have regarded it as 'a mark of their originality to advance a new name for the Stone'. ... The Scala philosophorum stated: 'The Stone is one: Yet this one is not one in Number, but in kind.' To end with the quoting. About the Chemical wedding, or the union of Red Man/King/Sol and White woman/Queen/Luna: "the philosopher's Stone cannot be generated until the lovers have died and their bodies putrefied in the mercurial waters. Artephius wrote of the lovers: 'If therefore these do not die, and be converted into water, they remain alone, or as they were and without fruit; that if they die, and are resolved in our water, they bring forth fruit, an hundred fold'. The bodies of the lovers lying dead in the grave symbolize the death which frees the soul to be released and rise to the top of the alembic. So, if we allow your theory about Dumbledore, James and Lily sort of planning on producing a philosopher's child, I'm afraid that the 'dying' part of James and Lily was not an accident or something that went wrong, but *part of* the plan. This could explain the reason why Dumbledore had 'powers' to take Harry to Privet Drive and then control his education, he is the alchemist/philosopher/foster- parent, he sees that the "orphan" grows up and is burnt/fed in the three alchemical Fires: Natural, not Natural and against Nature. The first and second fires produce the Nigredo and Albedo stages, which IMO Harry has just gone through... so what's left is the third fire, is it called 'against Nature' because it's water, it's the fountain of living water, mercurial water. Perhaps that boat in the cover of HBP might signify this stage? IMHO, Dumbledore just picked up the process once Harry was hit with the AK, there was no planning of making him a Stone. Dumbledore has stated many times that he's not sure what happened at Godric's Hollow on that fated Hallowe'en night, he's working on educated guesses... Marcela From julierice8 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 15:38:07 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Godmother and maid of honor Message-ID: <20050704153807.37624.qmail@web50510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131942 "anders217" wrote: Why do we never hear anything about who was Lily's maid of honor, or whether or not Harry has a godmother? Jen wrote: But as for Lily's possible friends, and maid of honor, the two who jump out as being approximately the same age are Alice Longbottom and Hestia Jones (from the Advance Guard). We know for sure Alice and Lily had much in common, both working to defeat LV, both newly married with almost identical-age sons. Julie replies: I'm going to disagree here. I think that Alice is older by quite a few years than Lily. I believe it's been canon that Lily was about 19 when she married, 20 when she had Harry and 21 when she was killed. It seems to me she wouldn't have had time to train to be an Auror. That takes 3 years post Hogwarts. There just isn't the time. I doubt Auror training is something you can do pregnant. And going out and capturing criminals is too risky pregnant. Further Alice Longbottom and her husband were very well respected, liked and successful Aurors. It takes time to build that reputation. I think that they were married and Aurors for awhile before Neville came along. I think she's too old to have been Lily's Hogwart's friend. In regards to Alice defying Voldemort thrice, she could have taken maternity leave and then left Neville with Grandma while continuing to thwart Voldie's plans. Julie Ohio ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From kreneeb at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 16:42:30 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:42:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and....Susan? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131943 Kitten says: The difference between Ginny losing her uncles and Susan losing her relatives... is that Susan's loss is actually in the book. We wouldn't even know Molly's maiden name, if JKR hadn't had told us on her website, It's just not in the book. While JKR seemed to have made a point in mentioning Susan's in the book. Karen said: Just wanted to make a point that actually Ginny does have that in common with Harry. The Prewitt brothers were Molly's brothers therefore Ginny's uncles. I do find it strange though that Ron has never mentioned this at all. I wonder if the Weasley children know that their uncles were killed by LV/DEs. Even though it happened before they were born you'd still think Ron, or one of the others, would have mentioned it somewhere along the line. Kitten...TTFN From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 16:49:43 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:49:43 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131944 Tinglinger: > So now you have the Lily & James are Alchemists Theory > as described above, and here is why it makes even more sense....... > > You might ask why James and Lily would agree to such a thing? > Even for all the gold in Gringot's! Two reasons. > First, the wizarding world and the order are doomed if nothing is > done, and second BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND > SUCCEEDED..... almost. Jen: I'm afraid the motive is the break-down point for me, even though you make a good case for your theory, tinglinger. Dumbledore himself admits there's not much positive about immortality, that the very things we hope to gain through immortality turn out to be the very things humans don't truly need--neverending life, money, fame-- all the temptations that can conquer us in the end. True DD might be willing to take drastic steps at that point in the war, but at what price? Eternally altering the course of Harry's life goes against every principle DD stands for when he talks of our choices. Certainly he took away some of Harry's choices by arranging for his stay at the Dursleys (who of us doesn't make life-altering decisions when taking care of infants?), but that's a little different from irrevocably altering Harry's biology and genetic future. JKR's seems to take great pains to portray Harry as 'everyperson', an imperfect individual with faults many of us relate to, or at the very least are annoyed by! Not a super or enhanced wizard. Marcela: > So, if we allow your theory about Dumbledore, James and Lily sort of > planning on producing a philosopher's child, I'm afraid that > the 'dying' part of James and Lily was not an accident or something > that went wrong, but *part of* the plan. This could explain the > reason why Dumbledore had 'powers' to take Harry to Privet Drive and > then control his education, he is the alchemist/philosopher/foster- > parent, he sees that the "orphan" grows up and is burnt/fed in the > three alchemical Fires: Natural, not Natural and against Nature. > The first and second fires produce the Nigredo and Albedo stages, > which IMO Harry has just gone through... so what's left is the third > fire, is it called 'against Nature' because it's water, it's the > fountain of living water, mercurial water. Perhaps that boat in the > cover of HBP might signify this stage? > IMHO, Dumbledore just picked up the process once Harry was hit with > the AK, there was no planning of making him a Stone. Dumbledore has > stated many times that he's not sure what happened at Godric's > Hollow on that fated Hallowe'en night, he's working on educated > guesses... Jen: To add to your thoughts, there's a theory called Stoned!Harry which is summarized here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38542 Basically the idea is pretty much what you laid out, that Harry is the embodiment of the living Philosopher's Stone. Still, I belive this must be symbolic in nature and not literal. So far the alchemy symbolism continues to play out in the series with the nigredo stage represented by OOTP, and the dissolution of Black to further Harry in his process of transformation. Will HBP continue this symbolism as the work of the albedo stage? The albedo stage is the process of rebirth after death, represented by Albus Dumbledore here and is sometimes called the 'uniting stage'. But Albus will have to literally or figuratively be released for Harry to move on to the next stage, the rubedo, represented by Rubeus Hagrid. Where the final transformation takes place--of Harry, of the WW? Who knows if this will play out, but alchemy has provided a certain symmetry for the series so far. It's not much of a stretch to view Harry as Dumbledore's apprentice given the nature of their relationship. It's not father-son or parent-child IMO, and that's why I believe DD made the choices he did. He understands Harry's life will be a painful burning away of all he holds dear in order to rise to his destiny. Jen From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 16:52:57 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:52:57 -0000 Subject: Godmother and maid of honor In-Reply-To: <20050704153807.37624.qmail@web50510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131945 > Julie replies: > I'm going to disagree here. I think that Alice is > older by quite a few years than Lily. I believe it's > been canon that Lily was about 19 when she married, 20 > when she had Harry and 21 when she was killed. > > It seems to me she wouldn't have had time to train to > be an Auror. That takes 3 years post Hogwarts. There > just isn't the time. I doubt Auror training is > something you can do pregnant. And going out and > capturing criminals is too risky pregnant. > > Further Alice Longbottom and her husband were very > well respected, liked and successful Aurors. It takes > time to build that reputation. I think that they were > married and Aurors for awhile before Neville came > along. I think she's too old to have been Lily's > Hogwart's friend. Jen: It's probably true Alice and Lily weren't Hogwarts friends and perhaps then Alice wasn't part of the wedding. It still seems conceivable they were friends though, regardless of age differences. Both being part of the Order and both pregnant at the same time would bring them together, I'd think. We know there was no one else in that same situation at the time, and certainly not anyone else carrying a prophecy child in her womb! From gullicksen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 18:27:27 2005 From: gullicksen at yahoo.com (kbmum2000) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:27:27 -0000 Subject: Godmother and maid of honor In-Reply-To: <20050704153807.37624.qmail@web50510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131946 JK answered a question at the Edinburgh Book Festival last August about whether Harry has a godmother: Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? No, he doesn't. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=? Kbmum. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 18:42:52 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:42:52 -0000 Subject: Some possibilities for you to think about {and vote on?} Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131947 I have posted four polls in potterplots over this weekend and am printing the 100 yes/no questions below. Even if polls aren'y your thing, and you never visit the site, you might take a look through the list to jog your mind a bit as to some possibilities you may not have considered before, or even use them to start a thread or three herein... I particularly like the last question in #3 as a great HBP cliffhanger... The actual poll is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots Once again, these are possibilities not guarantees, of course.. just some things to think about in the next two weeks... Here goes .......... 1 --- Godric's Hollow, Riddle/Harry link ,????!Lupin ------------------------------------------------------------- # The first chapter in HBP will return to events at Godric's Hollow the night Harry got his scar # Voldemort, Harry, James and Lily were not the only ones at GH that night. # Snape tried to warn James about Sirius before LV arrived but was laughed at and left. # Peter Pettigrew was at GH during LV's visit and took his wand with him when LV vanished # The Droobles Gum Wrapper theory is valid - Sirius was careless with the parchment that contained the Potter's hiding place. # Pettigrew was never SK for the Potters - it was all made up by Sirius to cover up his mess # Lupin was at GH when LV arrived but could do nothing to help or stop the events that transpired. # Snape was at GH when LV arrived but could do nothing to help or stop the events that transpired. # Dumbledore was at GH when LV arrived but could do nothing to help or stop the events that transpired. # Harry was NOT hit with an avada kedavra spell at GH # Lupin will never forgive Sirius for what happened to James and Lily at GH despite what was said in POA. # The MANXMOUSE theory is valid - Harry is not the innocent little baby we are led to believe. # Riddle played a key role in the defeat of Grinderwald in 1945 similar to what Harry will play in the defeat of Voldemort in 1997. # The fact that McGonagall was at Privet Drive is more significant than we have been led to believe. # Lupin is ESE and a Death Eater. # Lupin is not a DE but was capable of killing Sirius and did so to pay back Sirius for screwing up his life. # Lupin is a poor misunderstood werewolf who doesnt have a bad bone in his body (except for the ones he ate) # The fact that Harry's hair is always the same and can't be cut or changed is VERY significant. # Switching spells will play a major role in the next two books # Fudge's role in the events that follow GH will be shown to be very significant in HBP # Harry's parents got rich as a result of using the sorcerer's stone to get their gold with the help of Dumbledore and Flamel # James and Lily Potter were apprentices of the alchemy partnership of Flamel and Dumbledore # In an attempt to defeat Voldemort, the Potters allowed DD and Flamel to make Harry immortal by using the Sorcerer's Stome # Flamel's death age of 666 is significant # What a waste of time! Almost none of these ideas are valid! 2 --- CHARACTERS WHO MAY NOT BE WHAT THEY APPEAR TO BE ------------------------------------------------------------------ # Ludo Bagman will sell out to Voldemort. # Rita Skeeter will sell out to Voldemort. # Lucius Malfoy is not the Pure Blood Wizard he tells everyone he is. # Draco Malfoy is the Half Blood Prince. # A member of the Weasley family is the Half Blood Prince. # That irritating wasp that bothers Harry is an animagus. # Hagrid as Keeper of the Keys will play a much more important role at Hogwarts than we've been told so far. # Professor Flitwick wil turn into a dueling Yoda before the end of the series (his expertise in dueling was mentioned in one of the books). # There is a magic-related reason why squibs have cats as companions. # Filch will betray the secrets of Hogwarts to the dark side # The Marauders Map will fall into the wrong hands and jeopardize Hogwarts security # The Weasley Joke Shop in Diagon Alley will play a prominant role in HBP # Knockturn Alley will play a prominant role in HBP # There is a good slytherin hanging around somewhere at Hogwarts # An explanation as to the symbolism of Ginny Weasley and eggs will be established (ie OOP in library with Harry, the Bird/Egg at the MOM) # Arthur Weasly will use his muggle protecting skills to protect Hermione's parents fron death eaters. # If Dumbledore does die in HBP, he will "live on" in his pensieve. # Hedwig is more than just an owl. # Petunia Dursley hides much more than what she has revealed. # Dudley is the Half Blood Prince # The fact that Dean Thomas' boggart turned into a severed hand is VERY significant (POA CH 7, 138). # The Hand of Glory will play a key role in HBP. # Hermione's ability to produce heatless fires will play a key role in HBP. # A strong similarity berween Lily and Sphynxes will be revealed. # Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be used to suprise us at least once during HBP (in fact a person who we think has died in HBP may be revealed to have been Tonks later on). 3 --- HBP PREDICTIONS -------------------------------- # Amos Diggory will be the new Minister of Magic. # The Goblins will not join forces with Voldemort # Umbridge will not be a major part of HBP whether living or dead. # Except for possible appearances by Viktor Krum and Karkaroff, Durmstrang will play an insignificant role in HBP. # Durmstrang will emerge as the new school of choice for a significant number of Slytherins once the Second War gets going. # Charlie and his dragon taming friends from Romania will be significant allies of the Order once the Second War gets going. # The method Voldemort's snake used to get into the MOM to attack Arthur Weasley will be vital in HBP. # The caved-in passage will be used to invade Hogwarts by the end of HBP. # We have not seen the last of the Omnioculars, and they will be used by Harry, Hermione, and Ron (if he hasn't lost his pair) in HBP. # Lucius Malfoy ancestry will be revealed and he is not a pure-blood wizard as we have all been led to believe. # Seamus is the Half Blood Prince. # Dean Thomas is the Half Blood Prince. # Winky will play a very significant role in HBP. # When Harry returns to Grimauld Place, he will attempt to kill Kreacher to avenge Sirius (if Dumbledore hasn't already done that for him). # Dobby will end up living in Grimauld place with Harry during his time away from Hogwaerts # The piece of parchment Lupin was reading when Harry suprised him was Sirius' will # Harry inherits Grimauld Place from Sirius. # Sirius also stipulates in his will that Lupin will always have a home at Grimauld Place for as long as he chooses to stay there. # Mad-Eye Moody will be appointed as Harry's new guardian, which will really tick off Lupin. # Mad-Eye Moody will finally lose all his parts in HBP. # Arthur Weasley will either die or be totally incapacitated in trying to protect Hermione's parents. # Ron's dirty nose and Percy's ink splattered nose will be "dark markers" and are JKR's sneaky way of telling us that at least one of them will be dead bythe end of HBP and both will be dead by the end of the series. # Hermione will always remain "toujours pure-ly good" and, though she may not always make the best choices, will always be on the side of the Order. # Ginny will always remain "toujours pure-ly good" in the future and, though she may not always make the best choices, will always be on the side of the Order. # HBP will end with students and teachers supporting the Order barricaded in Dumbledore's Office Tower, forced to retreat there by Hogwarts invaders from below, and looking out one of the many Tower windows watching dragons ridden by Death Eaters and/or Voldemort controlled dementors threatening invasion from above. 4 --- LUNA LOVEGOOD ------------------------------ # Luna appears on Privet Drive to find Harry. # The story of Luna's mother's life and death will be significant in Book 6 # Luna's mother died trying to help Luna # Luna was bitten by a werewolf as a child # Specifically, Luna's mother died trying to find a cure for her daughter # Harry and Luna will become a lot closer in HBP # Luna's dottiness is explained by her not being able to handle the death of her mother and being placed under an "Imperius light" spell by her dad so she can cope. # Harry and Luna will be at the Ministry of Magic before the end of HBP # Luna goes through the veil in search of her dead parents # The Homorphus Charm is legit and will be used by Harry on Luna # Snape will repay his life debt to Harry by saving him from Luna's werewolf form # Ron and Luna will be the SHIP in Book 6 # Hermione and Luna become friends by the end of Book 6 # Luna was not on the train leaving Hogwarts at the end of OOP # Luna's dad will be killed and the Quibbler trashed because he was the first to publish Harry's interview. # Goyle Sr. was not at the Ministry of Magic and is available to Voldemort as of the start of HBP to kill Lovegood Sr. # Luna's hats will somehow be used to help her out of a perilous situration. # The fact that Luna tucks her wand behind her ear for safekeeping will be used in Book 6 to save Harry from harm. # Hermione's skill at potions will play a specific role in helping Luna before the end of Book 6 # Luna will not play a significant role in Book 6, though some of the events mentioned here might happen. # Luna will be hit by the same spell the Death Eaters used on Ron # If there is a H/L ship, it will not survive the end of Book 6. # Hermione and her parents are in danger when Voldemort finds out that she was the motivating force behind Harry's story being told in the Quibbler. # Rita Skeeter betrays Hermione to Voldemort # Luna will travel from Hogwarts to London by thestral during the summer From sionwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 18:03:24 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost Message-ID: <20050704180324.12627.qmail@web33803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131949 I m new and English is not my first language, so please forgive my english. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think it will Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Gogric Griffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? It is relaated with her family, maybe with Petunia. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new Character 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I really like the hermionekitten9's theory, so I would have to say Susan Bones 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Susan's aunt, as I continue supporting kitten9's theory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. The reason because the Dursley's house is a safe place to harry to be in, will be revealed, and with this the secret of Petunia. 2 Sirius will appear in some way 3 Draco will be fighting between his hate feelings to Hermione and his love feelings to her. Virginia. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jul 4 19:04:52 2005 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:04:52 -0000 Subject: Accio Day Members! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131950 Due to popular demand, Accio is pleased to announce that on Saturday 30th July it will be opening its doors to all interested adults. Day tickets for Accio will be valid from 9am to 6pm. During this time, you will be able to join the conference and therefore have the opportunity to listen to presentations, pester panelists, and talk about Harry Potter with other like-minded people. Included in the ?75 admission fee will be the Accio welcome pack, a CD copy of the conference proceedings together with mid-morning and afternoon tea and coffee and a sandwich lunch. Day members may also wish to stay for the Feast. Please direct all enquiries about this to register at accio.org.uk Creative Writing Events We have important information for all those budding authors out there. Accio members are invited to enter an original short story competition, which will be judged by conference delegates. For details, please see http://www.accio.org.uk/competition.shtml. Elizabeth Kay, author of The Divide trilogy, has kindly agreed to run a Creative Writing Workshop during Accio, in addition to her keynote presentation. The Workshop is entitled "Writing for Other People's Children". Places are very limited, so please register your interest as soon as possible by writing to submissions at accio.org.uk (or whichever e-mail address) Accio UK is the first conference of its kind in the UK and will be held at Reading University from July 29th-31st 2005. It is an unofficial, non-profit making, friendly event that will bring together academics and adult Harry Potter fans to discuss all aspects of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series. Please note that day tickets must be purchased in advance. For further information please see our website: http://www.accio.org.uk. Details of how to register can be found here: http://www.accio.org.uk/registration.shtml This conference is an unofficial event and is not endorsed or sanctioned by Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives From kreneeb at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 19:31:42 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:31:42 -0000 Subject: HBP contest entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131951 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'm actually going to go with Neville... I don't really have anything to back it up then a gut feeling I have... I just think with him being "the spare" he's marked. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? When I first heard the phrase "Half-Blood prince" It immediately brought to mind Vampires... which is something that I can't let go. but I'm going to say Seamus... as my educated guess. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Honestly I don't think we will get any "dirt" on Lily until book seven. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone we haven't meet before... until the beginning of HbP... Before Harry gets to Hogwarts. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones... yes, that's right, you heard me. 6.. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amilia Bones... 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensive... but I don't think it's Dumbledore's 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9.Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes... honestly where would these books be without the Snap-Harry- Neville in potions, dynamic? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I'm gonna say -10- five independent predictions 1. it will be a Birthday Party (Harry's) that is the happy reason why Harry leaves the Dursey's early. 2.Hermione will get knocked down a peg or two... for character growth. 3.Percy will not be evil, or dead... he will be forgiven by his family, when they learn he had good reasons for doing what he did. 4. the Twins joke shop will *NOT* do well, in the beginning... but it will pick up. 5. Fluer and Bill... will NOT get married, at least not in the beginning of the sixth book, we don't even know if they are still dating at the end of OotP more or less that they are committed enough to get engaged. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jul 4 20:44:19 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:44:19 -0700 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131953 In the runup to HBP I'm listening to Jim Dale's reading of OOP, and I'm on the "OWLs" chapter. As I listened I was thinking about the question people have asked about how Percy could get 12 OWLs when there aren't that many classes. The passage that struck me was at the end of Harry's practical DADA, and it says, "He felt sure he had just achieved an Outstanding OWL." What I'm wondering about is the word "just", as though acing the practical exam = 1 OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* possible OWLs awarded per subject, one for the theory (written) exam and one for the practical? -- Dave From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 20:45:38 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:45:38 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Alla: > > > > Also, I don't even view Draco as underdog in his relationship with > > Harry, because IMO even thought he loses, he is not supposed to > > lose. > > Harry often wins against all odds in the situation which Draco > > himself starts and that is why it is such immense satisfaction for > > me to see Draco loose over and over again. > > > > Betsy Hp: > See, that's because *Harry* thinks, "gosh, how could I possibly win?" > but he's got the school's smartest witch, the WW's most powerful > wizard, an incredibly powerful wizarding family, his family's money, > and his own prodigy-like skills on his side. > > Draco only ever has his bravado and a good front. Which is all an > underdog ever has. I think both of you are wrong ;) I don't think either Draco or Harry are underdogs in the relationship with each other. While I wouldn't call Harry a golden boy (too much %^%&* piled on the poor guy for that) I don't see Draco as quite as pathetic as you do, betsy. I also think that you are working under differing definitions of underdog. To me, and I think to Alla, an underdog is a good person, not really looking for trouble, but ends up in some anyway, without the ability to get out of it easily. It's the Bad News Bears, or the Cleveland Indians from the movie Major League. It's Rodney Dangerfield, and the Absent Minded Professor. In common usage (at least imo) an underdog for the purpose of literature and movies is a person who *isn't* looking for trouble but finds some at the hands of a more competent and dangerous person. The underdog then manages to win despite the odds stacked against him. Draco picks every fight he gets in with Harry and then loses. Harry doesn't ever go around looking to duel Draco, he only reacts to Draco's provocation. Underdogs by nature don't provoke fights because they understand their limitations. Draco has no understanding of his. That doesn't make him an underdog, it makes him a dumb teenager. While I agree that generally, Harry is only an underdog in his own mind, I think you make too much of the Weasley family support and Dumbledore's. While Dumbledore has saved Harry's life upon occasion, he has also made it dance to his tune without regards to Harry's feelings or own desires, and provides little real day to day support for Harry. He is at best a double edged sword. Plus, I can totally see DD inviting Draco to his office and making an offer to listen if the boy wanted to talk, but there isn't a chance in hell that Draco would take up that offer. Still, doesn't mean it wasn't made. I think Dumbledore would go to the mat for every last one of his students if he had to. even the really annoying ones :0) phoenixgod2000. Happy 4th to every american on the list, at home and abroad. Stay safe and eat a lot! From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 4 20:56:48 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:56:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OWLs In-Reply-To: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> References: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <42C9A290.9040500@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131955 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >In the runup to HBP I'm listening to Jim Dale's reading of OOP, and >I'm on the "OWLs" chapter. As I listened I was thinking about the >question people have asked about how Percy could get 12 OWLs when >there aren't that many classes. > >The passage that struck me was at the end of Harry's practical >DADA, and it says, "He felt sure he had just achieved an Outstanding >OWL." What I'm wondering about is the word "just", as though acing >the practical exam = 1 OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* >possible OWLs awarded per subject, one for the theory >(written) exam and one for the practical? > > Ooooooooohhhhh... you might be on to something there. I guess we'll have to wait and see, just a couple more weeks and I'm sure she'll explain it all... but you're right. Several of the classes (not all) were divided into 2 tests. So, 2 OWLS for transfiguration, 2 for charms, 2 for DADA, and one each for the rest? There might be a couple more with double exams... was there a 'theory' test for potions? Let's see, that would give Harry a total OWL potential of: Transfiguration: 2 Charms: 2 DADA: 2 History: 1 Potions: 1 Astronomy: 1 COMC: 1 Divination: 1 Herbology: 1 That does come out to 12. Hermione has a couple more, with Arithmancy and Runes instead of Divination... did she continue Muggle Studies after 3rd year? I don't recall... Anyway, there are 12 classes possible, I just listed them all. But it's unlikely someone would be able to take all of them... Hermione nearly killed herself trying... so until we hear otherwise, I do like your idea. heather the buzzard From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 21:45:43 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:45:43 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <42C9A290.9040500@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > >...how Percy could get 12 OWLs when there aren't that many classes. > > > >... at the end of Harry's practical DADA, and it says, "He felt > > sure he had just achieved an Outstanding OWL." What I'm wondering > > about is the word "just", as though acing the practical exam = 1 > > OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* possible OWLs awarded > > per subject, one for the theory (written) exam and one for the > > practical? > > > > > Heather: > > Ooooooooohhhhh... you might be on to something there. > > ...edited... > > Let's see, that would give Harry a total OWL potential of: > > Transfiguration: 2 > Charms: 2 > DADA: 2 > History: 1 > Potions: 1 > Astronomy: 1 > COMC: 1 > Divination: 1 > Herbology: 1 > > That does come out to 12. Hermione has a couple more, with > Arithmancy ...and Runes instead of Divination... Muggle Studies > ... But it's unlikely someone would be able to take all of them... > > heather the buzzard bboyminn: Close, but Potion would be two; it's both written and practical -Written and Practical (4 classes, 8 OWLS) -- Transfiguration, Charms, DADA, Potions -Written Only (4 classes, 4 Owls) -- History, Runes, Arithmacy, Muggle Studies -Practical Only ( 2 classes, 2 Owls) --Astronomy, Divinations -Possible Blend of written and practical (2 classes, 2 Owls) -- Herbology, COMC Total 12 Classes with 16 possible OWLs. Remember that you don't necessarily have to take the class to take the test. Any muggle-born could take the Muggle Studies test and pass without taking the class. A student could study on his own in a subject he was reasonably good at and take the test while he concentrated is serious studies on subject he needed help with. Also, remember you don't need to get an Outstanding to get an OWL; a mere 'Acceptable' would be good enough. This has been debated before, and we have never been able to resolve it. I also doubt that JKR has thought it out in detail which could account for the lack of clarity in the books. Twelve out of sixteen OWLs is still pretty good, but anyone trying it would have to make sure they didn't compromise there core critical subjects to squeeze in a few extra OWLs. From the perspective of a job resume, it would be better to get an 'Outstanding' in Charms and Transfiguration than to get an 'Acceptable' in Charms, Transfiguration, and Runes. So, additional OWLs only serve you if they don't diminish your core subjects. If it's a single OWL for each subject then to get 12 OWLs is even more outstanding. At least the other version leaves you some margin of error. Logically, you don't list your failures on a job application. You simple list the OWLs you achieved, and there reason for other no listed OWLs is irrelavant. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 4 21:47:19 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:47:19 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131957 Tinglinger: > 1. After James and Lily leave Hogwarts, they are both hired > to work as apprentices for the Dumbledore Flamel Alchemy > partnership. > 2. Because they are apprentices for Dumbledore and Flamel, > the pay is quite good (ya think?). They can get all the > gold they could ever want from the Sorcerer's Stone, gold > that is not Leprechaun's Gold, gold that can be stored in > a vault in Gringott's and spent. Or in the Potter's > unfortunate case, saved for Harry. And of course the gold > would have been kept in Gringott's - houses burn down > don't they? (SS 63). SSSusan: Now, this is admittedly a nitpicky and rather silly objection, but.... Are you saying that the gold which is generated from the Sorcerer's Stone "comes out" in the form of galleons? For what Harry finds in his vault is wizard MONEY, is it not? Stuff he can pick up, stick in a sack, and spend? And I can't imagine that wizards would just be *allowed* to turn gold into galleons without approval -- surely the goblins would frown upon that! It's easy to get around this objection, though -- just say DD & Flamel turned in the gold they made & exchanged it for galleons, sickels & knuts, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think what they *made* as apprentices is what Harry finds in his vault. > 5. Remember that > the second property of the Sorcerer's stone is that "It also > produced the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker > immortal". Now what if Harry was given the Elixir of Life, > and Voldemort has this prophecy that he heard about Harry, > and he tries to kill Harry who now is immortal... > And Harry survives as a boy, but a boy who is alchemistically > enhanced. Enhanced in such a way that he must be kept away from > wizards until he is ready to deal with it - an isolated > super-wizard. SSSusan: I have a rather more serious objection to this portion of the theory. It just doesn't ring true for me, I'm afraid. One, doesn't one have to CONTINUE to drink the elixer of life in order to retain the effects? So that, even if Harry was "immortal" at the time of the GH attack, once he stopped being administered the elixer, he'd be able to die, wouldn't he? My second objection is, if somehow I'm wrong on my first objection, and DD knows Harry to be immortal, if DD is in control as much as this theory suggests, why would DD not just train Harry up to be a cold-blooded, heartless killer? That is, ENSURE that Harry wouldn't mind going after Voldy and blowing him away? As it is, DD seems to want Harry to be as normal a kid as possible and seems to regret the task that may well lie ahead for Harry (killing Voldy). In fact, DD (and JKR!) speaks of love, of burdens, of the rightness of saving a life over vengeance (as with Pettigrew). If what you're suggesting is true, wouldn't DD be really hammering home the message that Harry needed to avenge his parents' deaths? Get him primed for his mission? After all, if the kid's immortal, he can't be killed, so what's to lose in pushing the confrontation with Voldy? Siriusly Snapey Susan From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 21:50:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:50:33 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131958 > >>Geoff: > I am coming to the conclusion that Alla, Betsy and I are not all > singing from the same hymnsheet on the question of who is or is not > an underdog. > Alla has presented a number of cases where Harry is not "the best > thing since sliced bread" in the eyes of his house or the school. > > But... > None of these put him into an "underdog" situation. To repeat my > definition of a couple of days ago: an underdog is "a competitor > thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest." > Betsy Hp: I think the difficulty is that Harry is competing on different fronts. There's his school-boy rivalry with Draco. And his coming- of-age conflict with Snape. And of course his epic battle with Voldemort. In each conflict Harry stands in a different place. With Voldemort I think Harry does stand as the underdog. As you pointed out, Geoff, Harry *does* beat Voldemort whenever they meet, but he always has help (usually Dumbledore's). Voldemort *is* stronger and more knowledgeable than Harry, and so when they do finally meet alone (in book 7 I'd imagine) Harry will go into the battle as the underdog. (Or as much an underdog as a children's book hero is allowed to have -- I somehow doubt JKR will go for a "Voldemort wins!" type ending .) Harry's conflict with Snape is a bit more gray. Harry sees Snape as a bad authority figure he must overcome, and Snape does seem content to play the role. But Snape never *really* hurts Harry when he has opportunity to, instead he protects him. It's hard to judge who has more power in a contest where one of the players has so willingly handicapped himself. The school-boy rivalry with Draco is quite clear though, IMO. From the first book Harry bests Draco in every contest they enter into. At their very first meeting Draco tells Harry he hopes to bring a racing broom to school and play for his house quidditch team. And what does Harry end up doing in defiance of school rules? He has a racing broom at school and plays for his house team. Every other book follows this pattern. Harry *always* wins, and Draco *always* loses. The only thing keeping the rivalry going is Draco's persistance in climbing back onto his feet and charging once more into battle. Betsy Hp From jcf at ieee.org Mon Jul 4 21:39:28 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:39:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131959 Lupinlore wrote: > Now, perhaps a more interesting question is will Harry have to kill > anyone else? This is a war, after all, and Harry is a prime target. > It is very plausible that Harry might have to kill in self-defense > long before the final confrontation with Voldy (and indeed, he > already has, if not deliberately). I could easily see that the big > hook at the end of HBP, the one that "some won't like" is that Harry > will be forced to kill someone, perhaps Malfoy, Sr., while protecting > himself and Dumbledore, or perhaps after Dumbledore's death. Thus he > will have the summer to stew on that, and to prepare himself for what > is to come. Harry's *having* to kill somebody (besides Voldie) strikes me as unlikely. Remember how in the MOM battle even the Death Eaters didn't use Avada Kedavra? Between "stupify," "impedimenta," and "expelliarmus," there really isn't much reason to use a killing spell (a possible exception being that AK apparently can't be blocked). I take this to be the reason that Avada Kedavra is illegal, period: the only reason to use it is that you want to outright kill someone, not just stop him. I could see J.K. rigging up a situation in which Harry's Necessary Actions cause an attacker's death--but for him to holler "Avada Kedavra" without a lot of previously explained justification would jump the shark. -John From maliksthong at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 22:19:54 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:19:54 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131960 "tinglinger": > THE SORCERER'S STONE - what we should know > > > IMPLICATIONS FOR JAMES LILY AND HARRY > THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY Chys: Ok, I don't know if anyone else touched on this but I don't see it as possible for a few reasons: You said Harry would be Immortal. That's immortal as in longevity, not as in invulnerability. He's not invincible. He can break his arm, get sick, and die of blood loss. He can fall off his broom and that's it, lights out to the boy who lived. He might be immortal in this scenario but he's not invincible so it's not a good point for the AK having rebounded. I do think that's something that Lily had her hand in. It's only a good point for if Harry lived an exceptionally long life (even for a wizard,) but obviously it needs to be kept up (the dosage but be administered regularly, as it stated in the book in a subtle way,) and as the stone has been destroyed and Flamel is now dead as stated by JKR, there's no way for that to happen unless there's another stone in someone's posession and they've been feeding it to Harry without his knowledge. He wouldn't notice any difference, as he's still a child, and hasn't experienced an elongated lifespan. I don't think that James and Lily were working as apprentices because I do recall something mentioned by JKR that James wasn't working. (If someone could point this quote out, that would be helpful.) So either it's not James and just Lily, or neither. His family had money, didn't they? Even if they did have money from the SS, it's beside the point. They COULD have gotten it from the SS, or they could have inherited it from an old family, or DD could have given it to them, even. Again, beside the point. They could have been alchemists, but that wouldn't have changed things, if the sacrifice were nescessary as someone else stated in that theory. I think it's a different type of magic involved, and Lily is the key, not the SStone. Now, if they had actually been giving the elixer to Harry when he was an infant, I don't think it would stop the AK from killing him, it's unblockable, and all of that, but perhaps they didn't know what role it would play? Couldn't hurt, right? But I would also guess for the sake of the possibility that if they DID give it to the child, they would have given some to Neville as well, as they couldn't truly be certain which one LV would go for. Just as a precaution, but I don't think that it would really have stopped LV from killing either of them, as it wouldn't make them invincible to attack, just immortal in the sense that life goes on. There was also mention by LV that the SS could give him his body back, so either there's something about it that's not being mentioned by the good guys to Harry (for reasons unknown) or I think we're missing something important here, and would be happy to hear more of it in books 6 and 7. Chys From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 22:30:41 2005 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:30:41 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Dumbledore listen to Steve? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: >>>Snip text of "Why Didn't Dumbledore Listen to Steve" (thereby investigating Riddle Manor for proof of Harry's GoF experience.)< In a soft whirl of cloaks, Talisman lands briefly, behind enemy lines, with a dispatch of critical literary-compass coordinates: Ah, Ginger, you--and the diligently laboring Steve--have grasped the wrong end of the game plan. Dumbledore has known that Voldemort would eventually require Riddle Manor, not to mention his father's bones--for a very long time. That's why the old dear put the muggle-repelling charm on the residence, after Riddle AK'ed Pater & Co. That's why he purchased the manor (no doubt for a song, after it had been dumped back on the market a number of times in short succession) and retained the falsely accused Frank Bryce as groundskeeper (? la Hagrid). That's why he was watching Little Hangleton for signs of Voldemort's return, that lovely summer after Harry's third year. After all, he'd essentially dispatched Wormtail to fetch the bad boy home. If he had wanted to bust Voldemort, he could have posted a hit squad in the bushes as a welcome home surprise for the scheming pupa. But this would not conform to Dumbledore's plan, which fully entails Harry`s experiences in both GoF and OoP. Timing is everything, and Dumbledore had no wish that Voldemort be widely revealed until after the events leading up to, and occurring in, the D.O.M., not the least of which was Sirius's death. Up to that time, Voldemort's desire to keep a low profile went a long way toward limiting his choices and conforming his behavior to Dumbledore's ends. Among other benefits, this would have been negated by any official investigation corroborating Harry's story. Yes, the reasons Dumbledore didn't ask for an investigation of Riddle Manor are identical to the reasons he didn't bust Riddle for releasing the Basilisk. They are one with the reasons he watched, sans intervention, as Riddle transformed himself into The Dark Lord. They are of a piece with the reasons Dumbledore did not try to kill Voldemort in the Atrium. Voldemort is part of Dumbledore's plan. Let the howling begin. (Hermione will be joining you, soon.) Talisman, Agent Provocateur, and HPfGU's expatriate, on Spec Ops duty for The Fellowship of the D.U.S.T. (Dumbledore Undercover Surveillance Team). From jcf at ieee.org Mon Jul 4 21:48:21 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:48:21 -0700 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131962 > "kempermentor" wrote: > > If Harry accidently kills LV, I think Harry can live with that > > much easier Eggplant wrote: > I think that is true, I also think that would be an > extraordinarily boring way to end the series. I don't want Harry > to kill Voldemort by letting him slip on a banana peal, or by > killing him with love; No, I want Harry to disembowel Voldemort > in a blood bath that would give Stephen King nightmares, and even > more important I want the man who was once a sweet lovable little > boy to discover to his horror that he rather enjoyed doing it. I'd like for Harry to kill Voldemort deliberately. There's nothing wrong with that. ;-) But my sure-to-be-unfulfilled fantasy goes like this: Voldie: "Harry, you half-blood rotter, you have foiled me far too many--" Hermione, from behind: "Avada Kedavra." She'd do it, too. Centaurs, anyone? "jcf" From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 4 22:37:16 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:37:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C9BA1C.9090106@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 131963 John Fisher wrote: >Harry's *having* to kill somebody (besides Voldie) strikes me as >unlikely. Remember how in the MOM battle even the Death Eaters didn't >use Avada Kedavra? Between "stupify," "impedimenta," and >"expelliarmus," there really isn't much reason to use a killing spell >(a possible exception being that AK apparently can't be blocked). I >take this to be the reason that Avada Kedavra is illegal, period: the >only reason to use it is that you want to outright kill someone, not >just stop him. > heather adds: You know that brings up an interesting point. Since the spell IS so unstoppable, then why wouldn't the baddies just kill everyone and be done with it? What possible reason would there be for sparing their opponents, for using any other curse at all? I would wager that, like the Patronus, it's a spell that takes a huge amount of skill and that it 'drains' the caster. A more experienced and powerful wizard probably can do more with less 'drainage', it's less exhausting on them. And like how Harry's attempt at the Crucio fizzled... he doesn't have the training, practice, OR the mindset for it. Possibly the AK requires a steely, dedicated, focused concentration of hatred in order to work. So it's not something you can just toss around in the middle of an intense battle -- you need to be able to focus all your negative energies on it. Like an anti-Patronus heh... which is a concentration of positive, protective and happy energy. The more practice Harry gets at the Patronus, the faster he's able to toss one off, but he still needs that moment of focus and mental control. So I imagine that in a fast-paced battle, you're better off casting something quick and simple that you know you're not going to screw up, in the hopes of gaining an advantage so that you CAN take a moment to focus on an AK if that's your ultimate desire. Many of the DE's at the MOM might not have sufficient 'power' to cast an effective AK anyway, except for Bellatrix. Although Peter was able to cast one -- he had time and opportunity to focus his hatred, he wasn't being attacked and had the clear advantage, so perhaps it's not so much 'power' as it is 'focus' after all. Hmm. I wonder if that was the first time Peter cast the killing curse, or does he have experience... heather the buzzard From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 22:50:14 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 22:50:14 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131964 > >>Alla: > > Also, I don't even view Draco as underdog in his relationship > with Harry, because IMO even thought he loses, he is not supposed > to lose. > >>Betsy Hp: > > Draco only ever has his bravado and a good front. Which is all an > underdog ever has. > >>Phoenixgod: > I think both of you are wrong ;) I don't think either Draco or > Harry are underdogs in the relationship with each other. While I > wouldn't call Harry a golden boy (too much %^%&* piled on the poor > guy for that) I don't see Draco as quite as pathetic as you do, > betsy. I also think that you are working under differing > definitions of underdog. To me, and I think to Alla, an underdog > is a good person, not really looking for trouble, but ends up in > some anyway, without the ability to get out of it easily. > Betsy Hp: Whenever there's a conflict, there's an underdog. Unless the contests end in perpetual ties, which *never* happens with Harry and Draco. Harry is always the definitive winner. Now if you want to put some sort of moral high ground to being the underdog, then yes, the title gets a little harder to bestow. (Though I'm not sure there's anything morally wrong with wanting to win a quidditch match, but I digress.) However, you're right Phoenixgod, I'm not defining Draco's underdog status with his morality or lack thereof. And I don't think Draco is pathetic. There's a certain grit needed to enter into a contest with someone who *always* beats you. (And that *is* a common underdog theme of the various sports movies out there.) I *will* say it's an interesting tack for JKR to take with regards to Draco. Because giving someone the underdog status *does* tend to win over audience sympathies. It's story-telling shorthand, like having the villain kick a dog and the hero rescue a kitten. It would have been so easy for her to have nipped that particular facet of Draco's character in the bud. Have him win a fight with Harry. Have him win a quidditch match. Let him get away with *something*. It's part of the reason I hope for good things in Draco's future. > >>Phoenixgod: > Draco picks every fight he gets in with Harry and then loses. > Betsy Hp: No he doesn't. Draco can't even win a quidditch match against Harry. And weirdly enough, the big game was won because *Harry* had the better broom. It goes against all sports story telling but JKR has her hero win the big game because his godfather is loaded enough to get him the top of the line equipment. And Harry usually wins his fights with Draco because Harry brings an army to the field; the numbers are *always* on Harry's side. Which goes against the rules of story telling again. Somehow, JKR makes it work. For a lot of people anyway. But it's weird to me that she takes that particular path in the first place. > >>Phoenixgod: > While I agree that generally, Harry is only an underdog in his own > mind, I think you make too much of the Weasley family support and > Dumbledore's. > Betsy Hp: Alla made a similar point about Dumbledore a few posts up. And I *really* don't want to get into another "is Dumbledore evil?" argument again. Suffice it to say, Dumbledore sacrifices his own job to prevent Harry being expelled, and he returns the invisibility cloak Harry lost while breaking school rules. This is not normal headmaster to student behavior. Especially from a headmaster with a coded office door. (The gargole doesn't suggest an open door policy, so I imagine Draco was comforted by Snape if anyone.) As to the Weasleys, Arthur certainly has a finger in various parts of the WW government. It's all underground, so to speak, but it's enough to keep him informed and he seems quite well known. Within Hogwarts' walls, the Weasley twins are a formidable pair and they provide Harry sound backing when he needs it. (They usually form part of his army whenever Harry needs to smear Draco into the ground.) Of course, everything seems primed to shift in the next year. The twins are gone but Harry has the DA now. Draco seems to be moving beyond school-boy rivalry, but his family name is in disgrace. So whatever the rules used to be, I don't think we can count on them for HBP. Betsy Hp, counting down the days. (Oh, and happy birthday USA! 229 years young. ) From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 4 22:58:14 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OWLs In-Reply-To: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050704225814.16421.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131965 Dave Hardenbrook wrote:>>In the runup to HBP I'm listening to Jim Dale's reading of OOP, and I'm on the "OWLs" chapter. As I listened I was thinking about the question people have asked about how Percy could get 12 OWLs when there aren't that many classes. >>The passage that struck me was at the end of Harry's practical DADA, and it says, "He felt sure he had just achieved an Outstanding OWL." What I'm wondering about is the word "just", as though acing the practical exam = 1 OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* possible OWLs awarded per subject, one for the theory (written) exam and one for the practical? Sorry to say it is only 12 OWLs. From JKR's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: faye109: Is 12 the maximum possible number of OWLs one can achieve? JK Rowling replies -> Yes, I think it is off the top of my head. Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 23:07:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 23:07:56 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131966 > > >>Phoenixgod: To me, and I think to Alla, an underdog > > is a good person, not really looking for trouble, but ends up in > > some anyway, without the ability to get out of it easily. > > Alla: Yes, yes, definitely, Phoenixgod. > > > >>Phoenixgod: > > Draco picks every fight he gets in with Harry and then loses. > > > > Betsy Hp: > No he doesn't. Draco can't even win a quidditch match against > Harry. Alla: I think Phoenixgod meant that Draco always picks up fights with Harry, Harry only defends himself. Are you saying it is not so? If yes, could you give me an example when Harry was the one to pick the fight with Draco? Phoenixgod is absolutely correct, IMO, or at least he correctly picked up on another reason for my lack of sympathy for Draco.:-) He CHOOSES to pick up fights with Harry. Now, despite that fact I could have feel for him, IF he picked those fights with Harry for the RIGHT reasons. You know, if Draco was doing it to fight the bad guy. But Draco does it for all the wrong reasons, IMO. His lack of morals is what does it for me. Now, you could argue that in Draco's mind he IS doing it for the right reasons, but to me as I said before definitions of "right" and "wrong" in Potterverse very clearly defined whether we look at it with Harry's eyes or not. Just my opinion, Alla From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 00:03:31 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:03:31 -0000 Subject: Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131967 tinglinger: > Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be > used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? > She would serve the interesting use of fooling us into thinking that a > character performing an action in HBP really did so when in fact it > was Tonks all along? > In fact, an important character like Ginny or Hermione may appear to > have died when in fact it was really Tonks in her metamorphmagus form > imitating that character? It strikes me that the most likely character for Tonks to impersonate is Harry--either as a decoy or in a sting operation. In any case, I agree: Tonks' ability is way too cool to waste doing tricks for Ginny and Hermione. Amiable Dorsai From scarah at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 00:27:24 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:27:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <320259050704172723913747@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131968 > tinglinger: > > Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be > > used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? Sarah: I feel that there is a reason why Tonks is so clumsy. And that is, she's not in her "default" or natural form, which is something we have yet to see. Or is it? Sarah From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 00:44:49 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:44:49 -0000 Subject: Harry as the Philospher's Stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131969 Several theories have come up recently which include the idea that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philospher's Stone. While I don't agree with some posters who believe Dumbledore, James and Lily planned for Harry to be such, I agree it is possible that Harry has become the living stone. Further, maybe this explains part of the original prophesy (or what we believe to be the original, maybe there were others before even that one, regarding Harry's conception). Perhaps both James & Lily had to sacrifice themselves - and perhaps that is even eluded to in the prophesy: [i]Born to those who have thrice defied him...[/i] we know this to be James & Lily [i]And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...[/i] Maybe the either/neither refer to James/Lily and The Dark Lord. Either James/Lily (treated as a unit) or Voldemort must die, because once the prophesy child is born, neither can live while the other survives. Further, maybe the spy heard the entire prophesy (think aout how long it would take to deliver, and how quickly they would have had to remove the spy) but LV doesn't know it was the whole thing. LV told Lily she didn't have to die, so maybe he knew enough to know that Harry could only be protected if both parents died (and thus he didn't want Lily to sacrifice herself). Harry was indeed protected by ancient magic, but not just because of a mother's love - perhaps Lily did cast some protective magic that enhanced the prophecy's protection. We don't know that much about Flamel, but maybe he was Dumbledore's predecesor as the protector of all that is good, and Harry will replace Dumbledore eventually. Maybe the Dark Lord has inhabited a variety of people over time (Grindewald prior to LV, and maybe even Slytherine at some time). Maybe through time there have been a series of defenders, and Harry is the last of that line, because he is the one who will be strong enough to vanquish the dark lord - because his parents were strong enough, and loved him enough to sacrifice themselves. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 5 00:46:02 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:46:02 -0000 Subject: Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be > used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? > She would serve the interesting use of fooling us into thinking that a > character performing an action in HBP really did so when in fact it > was Tonks all along? > In fact, an important character like Ginny or Hermione may appear to > have died when in fact it was really Tonks in her metamorphmagus form > imitating that character? Pippin: More likely it will be a DE who has the mm ability ... or another member of the Order. My bet is on Dumbledore. The glossary at Bloomsbury.com says that, contrary to Tonks's belief, the mm ability can be learned after much much study. Pippin From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 01:20:58 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:20:58 -0000 Subject: Wizarding portraits of the 20th Century ;-) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131971 Whilst whiling away an odd 5 minutes in the sun, musing on moving portraits I wondered if 20th century art had hit the wizarding world and what the implecations might be. A Braque or Picasso Headmistress/master in Dumbledore's office; it brought a whole new perspective to my understanding of being splinched. Would it induce fragmented personality, I ask myself.... Saraquel - who as you can see is weary of speculation and wants to see some of the promised 'answers' and who has been doing macrame with a thread of possibilities related to JKRs instructions to think about just what LV did to ensure he didn't die, and why DD didn't try to kill him. I seem to have knitted myself into one of Hermione's early elf hats. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 01:49:15 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:49:15 -0000 Subject: THE LILY & JAMES ALCHEMIST THEORY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131972 Jen Reese -------------------------------- I'm afraid the motive is the break-down point for me, even though you make a good case for your theory, tinglinger. Dumbledore himself admits there's not much positive about immortality, that the very things we hope to gain through immortality turn out to be the very things humans don't truly need--neverending life, money, fame-- all the temptations that can conquer us in the end. tinglinger ----------------- Yes, but that is the beauty of it - the fact that the Elixir ISN'T permanent. The purpose of Dumbledore giving Harry the Elixir is to lure Voldemort to Godric's Hollow based on a bogus prophecy WHILE THE ELIXIR IS EFFECTIVE. Voldemort uses the AK spell and it does not work because though unstoppable, it cannot work and therefore would rebound back to it's caster (or at least produce a priori incantatum type effect). Then after Voldemort's body is poofed, the Elixir wears off Harry and he goes back to being The Boy Who Lived, and nothing more....... Or at least that is what Dumbledore hoped would happen... More on the Prophecy and when Dumbledore tried all this before later ....... From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 01:52:55 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:52:55 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131973 Steve wrote: > -Practical Only ( 2 classes, 2 Owls) > --Astronomy, Divinations KathyK: Actually, Harry also had an Astronomy theory exam that Wednesday morning of the practical, before Divination (OoP Ch 31, US hardback ed., p 717). Christine wrote: >>Sorry to say it is only 12 OWLs. From JKR's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: faye109: Is 12 the maximum possible number of OWLs one can achieve? JK Rowling replies -> Yes, I think it is off the top of my head.<< KathyK: Ah, yes. And she also said in that same chat: ********** Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their other siblings? JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm ********** Which she later corrected here: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=63 She said, "I knew I'd messed up that question the moment I had answered it, but web chats move fast and I wanted to keep going to get through as many questions as I could...edit quote...Sorry. Maths is not my strong suit..." The point, of course, being that this could easily be another instance of the author not handling maths too well. In the same chat, no less. JKR's answers cannot always be taken as 100% accurate. There is enough evidence in the books to suggest that she has not thought out--at least not to our satisfaction--the number of OWLs a student can earn based on the number of examinations it is possible to take While she may well mean there are only twelve OWLs, regardless the number of exams the students take, until she puts this information into HBP or Book 7, her statement is not the only answer we can entertain. KathyK, listening (as she's too exhausted to go and watch) to fireworks From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 03:49:06 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:49:06 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131974 > Betsy Hp: > No he doesn't. Draco can't even win a quidditch match against > Harry. And weirdly enough, the big game was won because *Harry* had > the better broom. It goes against all sports story telling but JKR > has her hero win the big game because his godfather is loaded enough > to get him the top of the line equipment. Ok. One popint of contention here. If memory serves me correctly: In CoS, the match against the Slytherins, doesn't Malfoy have the better broom. As a matter of fact, the whole Slytherin team has Nimbus 2001s. Oh, and there is that little matter about Harry catching the snitch with a broken arm, AND a rogue bludger chasing him. Who was the underdog then? Yet, Harry still bested Malfoy. Just my instance of Harry, for once, being the underdog. Chris From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 04:15:38 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:15:38 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131975 This post contains a theory that explains the entire backstory of the Potter series, up to and including events at Godric's Hollow. ===================================================== MAJOR SPOILER ALERT IF YOU BUY INTO THIS (and believe me, i am not tossing dung bombs here ) ===================================================== Tinglinger ------------------------------- The Original Post of The Lily & James Alchemist Theory http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messages/131930 Jen Reese -------------------------------- I'm afraid the motive is the break-down point for me, even though you make a good case for your theory, tinglinger. Dumbledore himself admits there's not much positive about immortality, that the very things we hope to gain through immortality turn out to be the very things humans don't truly need--neverending life, money, fame-- all the temptations that can conquer us in the end. tinglinger ----------------- Yes, but that is the beauty of it - the fact that the Elixir's effect ISN'T permanent. Dumbledore has a plan to lure Voldemort to his destruction based on a bogus prophecy by Cybil Trelawney. Voldemort believes the "prophecy" and concludes that either Harry must kill him or he must kill Harry. Dumbledore feeds Harry the Elixir EXPRESSLY to lure Voldemort to Godric's Hollow at a time when Harry is temporarily immortal due to the elixir of life. Voldemort goes to Godric's Hollow and uses the AK spell on Harry, but it does not work because though unstoppable, IT CANNOT KILL A HUMAN WHO IS IMMORTAL, even if only temporarily so. So what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object? The force rebound back to it's caster with disasterous results. Then, after Voldemort's body is destroyed, the Elixir wears off and Harry goes back to being The Boy Who Lived, and nothing more....... Or at least that is what Dumbledore hoped would happen... but unforseen events doomed Albus' plan as we shall see. tinglinger - answering the BIG question -------------------------------------------------- You might ask why James and Lily would agree to such a dangerous plan, even for all the gold in Gringot's? Two reasons. First, the wizarding world and the order are doomed if nothing is done. In OOP Lupin talked about the order being outnumbered 20 to 1, and being picked off one by one (OOP CH 9, pg 177). Desperate times require desperate measures....., and second .... even more important ........ BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND SUCCEEDED..... almost. When? in his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945. Huh? Howzzzat? How The Dark Wizard Grindelwald was Defeated --------------------------------------------- Remember, Tom Riddle was in his final year at Hogwarts in 1945. He is a Slytherin - only concerned about himself. Bright, but flawed, an orphan with no family. Brilliant, but starting to lean to the dark side, capable of ruining the career of a fellow student (Hagrid) just so that he won't have to return to the orphanage. He wanted an edge. And Dumbledore had this plan........ He approached Tom Riddle and says "How would you like to live forever?" Riddle goes "Sure, but what's the catch?" "You must drink the Elixir of Life that I and my partner have produced from the Sorcerer's Stone. That will give you immortality. Then you must face this dark wizard Grindelwald, who will try to kill you with an Avada Kedavara spell. But don't worry! You can't die because the Avada Kedavera spell cannot work on an immortal! And guess what YOU will become after you drink the Elixir of Life!" "Oh," continued Dumbledore. "Don't worry - I'll be right behind you if something goes wrong. You won't see me because I will be invisible, but I WILL be there..." Riddle was stunned, but like all Slytherins, clearly sees what is in it for him, and agreed. Dumbledore figured that either way he can't lose. He can get rid of Grindelwald if the plan works, or if it doesn't and Riddle dies, his only loss would be a student with no morals or ethics who would turn bad eventually anyway...... To win a war, sacrifice a pawn..... Riddle drank the Elixir and prepared for battle... Grindelwald dueled Riddle and uses the AK spell. The spell reversed and Grindelwald's body was vaporized. Dumbledore was nearby as promised to finish off his Soul. End of problem. No more body or spirit - victory achieved! But Riddle was not satisfied - he got darker and darker by the day. It finally got bad enough for Dumbledore to say "No more Elixir for you, Tom!!! (Think soup Nazi in Seinfeld)...... And soon Riddle reverted to a mortal after the elixir wore off and, knowing that he cannot get any more from Dumbledore or Flamel, he disappeared...... the Voldemort Years ---------------------------------- Now when Riddle reappeared as Lord Voldemort and wreaked havoc with the wizarding community, and in particular started beating up on the Order to pay back Dumbledore for his broken promise, Dumbledore knew he can't use the same trick again...... So he created this bogus prophecy about a boy and a big bad dark lord -- one must die at the hand of the other, one cannot live while the other survives.... yeah, right...a load of old tosh if you ask me... Dumbledore figured that Voldemort would buy into it, and he was right. Vodemort set out to find the Potters, but they are in hiding... no luck so far..... BUT DUMBLEDORE HAD ANOTHER PLAN! ----------------------------------- the Godric's Hollow Plan was simple ..... Godric's Hollow was the Potter's hiding place but James and Lily wouldn't be there when Voldemort arrived - Harry would AND ... SO WOULD DUMBLEDORE WHO DIDN'T NEED AN INVISIBILITY CLOAK TO BECOME INVISIBLE (SS CH 12, pg 213 us ed) When Voldemort is fed the info about the Potter's hiding place, he would head into the trap and ... poof ... AKing Harry would destroy LV's body and Dumbledore would destroy LV's soul -- just like 1945 .... just like Grindelwald....... THE TRAGIC FLAW IN THE PLAN -------------------------------- only one problem, though ....... someone screwed up big time, and Voldemort found out before the Potters were able to leave Godric's Hollow and Dumbledore arrive...... and that is why James and Lily died. and that is why Harry lived.... Voldemort arrived earlier than expected, and thus his soul escaped because though the AK curse worked as expected, Dumbledore was not around to finish him off. James and Lily had no choice but to fight - though they never were expected to if Dumbledore's plan had worked...... Now you know the rest of the story... so to speak..... So who screwed up? my guess is Sirius by leaving that scrap of parchment around... don't count out the Droobles Theory to fast now ... I await your comments Thanks to all of you for your help and insight, and thanks Jen for the final lightbulb And thanks to Jo for putting Manxmouse on the shelf - the clue that started it all tinglinger From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 04:33:31 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:33:31 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > In the runup to HBP I'm listening to Jim Dale's reading of OOP, and > I'm on the "OWLs" chapter. As I listened I was thinking about the > question people have asked about how Percy could get 12 OWLs when > there aren't that many classes. > > The passage that struck me was at the end of Harry's practical > DADA, and it says, "He felt sure he had just achieved an Outstanding > OWL." What I'm wondering about is the word "just", as though acing > the practical exam = 1 OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* > possible OWLs awarded per subject, one for the theory > (written) exam and one for the practical? > > -- > Dave Yes, I think it is possible. Can one of our British listies tell us if there's bifurcation of results in "O" level exams? OWL's are probably the same. The other possibility is there are more subjects than we know of. I always believe we get the Reader's Digest version of life in the wizard world in the books, since JKR can't be writing 1,500 page books every time out. Also, Harry could have felt confident enough in his written DADA OWL that, combined with a runaway practical, he felt he'd maxed out the exam. (My experience is that a good practical can overcome an ordinary written). Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 04:41:16 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:41:16 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131977 We keep predicting that the new Minister of Magic will be Amelia Bones, Susan's mother, and I just read a prediction that Harry's romantic interest will be Susan Bones. Why? Amelia Bones certainly could be the next MoM, but at this point she's just as much a stranger as anyone else. The same goes for Susan, her daughter, as Harry's love interest. Predicting either one is the same as predicting any other stranger. You can't be for either of them and you can't be against either one. I suspect movie contamination here.... Jim Ferer From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 05:09:56 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:09:56 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: <42C9BA1C.9090106@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131978 heather the buzzard wrote: > Since the spell IS so unstoppable, then why > wouldn't the baddies just kill everyone and > be done with it? What possible reason would > there be for sparing their opponents, for > using any other curse at all? Probably because Avada Kedavra is very difficult to perform, so it is easier and often more effective to cast 4 or 5 lesser curses than one Avada Kedavra. It's the same reason soldiers don't use elephant guns, a smaller caliber rifle can be fired more often. Eggplant From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 05:24:18 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:24:18 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > heather the buzzard wrote: > > > Since the spell IS so unstoppable, then why > > wouldn't the baddies just kill everyone and > > be done with it? What possible reason would > > there be for sparing their opponents, for > > using any other curse at all? > > Probably because Avada Kedavra is very difficult to perform, so it is > easier and often more effective to cast 4 or 5 lesser curses than one > Avada Kedavra. It's the same reason soldiers don't use elephant guns, > a smaller caliber rifle can be fired more often. > > Eggplant I'm not so sure that the AK is harder than other spells. It seems to me that a lot of dark curses are easier to cast than many other spells, the seductive lure of darkness and all that. Harry manages to cast the pain curse with absolutely no practice. Sure, its weaker than normal, but there aren't many spells that Harry gets that close to being right the first time out. I think what holds people back from using the spell is a certain type of mindset that's required and the distinctive nature of the spell. The killing curse is probably the most visually distinctive spell in the hp books. Also, with the Priori spell to see what other wizards have cast with their wand, I think there are plenty of practical reasons for not flinging the spell around outside of its casting difficulty, which I doubt is all that high. After all, Peter Pettigrew manages to use it successfully. phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 05:49:17 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:49:17 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > We keep predicting that the new Minister of Magic will be Amelia > Bones, Susan's mother, and I just read a prediction that Harry's > romantic interest will be Susan Bones. > > Why? Amelia Bones certainly could be the next MoM, but at this point > she's just as much a stranger as anyone else. The same goes for > Susan, her daughter, as Harry's love interest. Predicting either one > is the same as predicting any other stranger. You can't be for either > of them and you can't be against either one. > > I suspect movie contamination here.... How could there be movie contamination? Amelia Bones seems like a strong canidate for a more proactive and fair-minded minister than Fudge. She was hard but fair towards Harry and seems to have a level head on her shoulders. She's also the head of magical law enforcement so she would make a good wartime leader as an ex-auror (I'm assuming). Not a stretch at all to suggest her. As for Susan, she had several small, pleasant moments supporting Harry in book five and seems to have all the qualities I would pick for Harry in a mate. She seems to be one of the Hufflepuff ringleaders of her year and has a background similar enough to Harry to commiserate with them. IMO, there is just as much potential for a Harry/Susan ship as any other. Aside from certain literary conventions there isn't any more evidence for a H/G or H/Hr ship than Harry/Susan. Both ideas strike me as emminently plausible. phoenixgod2000 From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 06:05:22 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 06:05:22 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <1184212048.20050704134419@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook how Percy could get 12 OWLs when there aren't that many classes. > What I'm wondering about is the word "just", as though acing > the practical exam = 1 OWL. So is it possible that there are *two* > possible OWLs awarded per subject, one for the theory > (written) exam and one for the practical? I very much doubt it. As an almost exact contempory of JKR's I recognise a lots from 'our' schooldays in her books and the OWLS and NEWTS are very very similar to the old GCE 'O' and 'A' Levels (General Certificate of Education 'Ordinary' and 'Advanced' levels) that we both would have taken. Science subjects: Physics, Chemistry and Biology had both a written and a practical paper each equating to approximately 50% of the total available marks and you took both to gain a pass 1 subject. It would have been hard to get a good grade if you were brilliant at the theory but hopeless at performing the actual experiments, or vice versa. Languages also had an oral exam, where you conversed with the examiner on your choice of a selection of subjects, but this did not have such a high percentage of the exam at stake. Percy may have taken a couple of obscure exams that the majority do not sit. 5 of us wanted to take Biology 'A' level but hadn't done Chemistry 'O' level so it was felt we might struggle with some of it so the teacher found an obscure subject called Social Biology which we took as a very small class instead. I've never met anyone else apart forom us that has this A level! I think that Harry thought he had JUST achieved an 'Outstanding' in his OWL, because he knew he had done well in the written exam that morning and had just excelled himself plus gained bonus points in the practical. I'm still concerned about Umbridge's 'look' when he passed her upon leaving the Hall. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that his written exam has been 'lost' and so he's only got 50% and therefore just an 'Acceptable'. Karen From jcf at ieee.org Tue Jul 5 05:37:09 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:37:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131982 On 7/4/05, tinglinger wrote: [much brilliance snipped] > Dumbledore knew he can't use the same trick > again...... > So he created this bogus prophecy about a boy and It's brilliant: I particularly love the Tom/Harry symmetry, and the explanation for why Tom/Voldie first became enamoured with eternal life. But there are a few things I don't like: 1) Dumbledore lied to Harry about the prophecy. 2) We've *seen* Sibyl Trelawney make a real prophecy. The first one might be bogus, but we shouldn't have a "prophecy ==> bunk" bias. What if Dumbledore had planned the Stonescapade already, including the role of the Potters, and then witnessed the prophecy, confirming (or re-arranging) his plan? 3) It seems out of character for Dumbledore to make anyone (Tom, in this case) the sacrificial guinea pig. The notion becomes palatable to the degree that there is mutual trust; but we saw in CoS that Dumbledore was suspicious of Tom from the beginning. Same goes for Dumbledore, much less Lily and James, letting Harry get AK'd under any circumstances. 4) It doesn't answer J.K.'s conundrum in a satisfying way: "The first question that I have never been asked--it has probably been asked in a chatroom but no one has ever asked me--is, 'Why didn't Voldemort die?' Not, 'Why did Harry live?' but, 'Why didn't Voldemort die?'" (In a sense it does--Dumbledore didn't get there in time to finish him off--but it seems cheap to pin it on logistics.) And, going on the assumption that the prophecy *isn't* bogus: 5) "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord approaches. Born.." It sure sounds like it's something innate to Harry, not something he was given. Which begs the question: what would happen if Voldie AK'ed Harry again? Shades of Uncle Remus and the Fabled Briar Patch: Hermione: "Nooo, V-V-Voldie, don't kill him! Don't hurt him! Don't use Avada Ked..." Voldemort: "AVADA KEDAVRA! Oop--" Hermione: "I hate when that happens." -John From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 05:54:42 2005 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:54:42 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131983 tinglinger wrote: > (some snip-age!)>> > Dumbledore has a plan to > lure Voldemort to his destruction based on a bogus > prophecy by Cybil Trelawney. > Voldemort believes the "prophecy" and concludes that > either Harry must kill him or he must kill Harry. >>>>(more snipzzzz) > And Dumbledore had this plan........ > He approached Tom Riddle and says "How would you > like to live forever?" > Riddle goes "Sure, but what's the catch?" > "You must drink the Elixir of Life that I and my > partner have produced from the Sorcerer's Stone. > That will give you immortality. Then you must face > this dark wizard Grindelwald, who will try to kill > you with an Avada Kedavara spell. But don't worry! > You can't die because the Avada Kedavera spell > cannot work on an immortal! Cookiemacster: This seems to be a very well thought out theory! I'm still a little confused though! a. Out of all the people in the WW why would Dumbledore choose Tom Riddle as his "pawn"? Wouldn't he choose someone more worthy of such an important task? Why choose a student, who you believe to be headed down a dark path, to help take down Grindelwald? Would he not be scared that Tom Riddle would betray him? b. With all the emphasis on the importance of the specific wording and such surrounding the prophecy, I'm a little uncertain I can believe that it is "bogus" and merely part of a strategy. Besides, in your theory you make it sound as though Voldemort had heard the prophecy in its entirety, which we are told is not true (don't have book handy, it's in the car! sorry no page number!). I don't really see how that part can fit into your theory... more details please! Cookiemacster (trying to cut back on the lurking!!!) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 06:41:14 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 06:41:14 -0000 Subject: OWLs - UMBRIDGE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > > ...edited... > > I think that Harry thought he had JUST achieved an 'Outstanding' in > his OWL, because he knew he had done well in the written exam that > morning and had just excelled himself plus gained bonus points in > the practical. I'm still concerned about Umbridge's 'look' when he > passed her upon leaving the Hall. I wouldn't be at all surprised to > find that his written exam has been 'lost' and so he's only got 50% > and therefore just an 'Acceptable'. > > Karen bboyminn: There are a lot of people speculating about Umbridge and her possible influence on the OWL results. I don't doubt that at some point Umbridge was planning to interfer in a way that would be negative to Harry, but given her status at the end of the book, I don't think she is in any position to interfer with anyone or anything. Given that she admitted an act very near cold blooded murder in front of several students (sending Dementors after Harry), and her Cutting Quill punishments, plus other atrocities, combined with the fact that Fudge is surely out of favor and in disgrace, she would be wise to keep her head down and stay quietly in the background as much as possible. Umbridge has, in a sense, lost all her authority and power, and any attempts to interfer with the once again darling of the wizard world, will bring her nothing but the pain and disgrace she so justly deserves. The best thing for her and Fudge to do is to 'chose to retire and spend more time with their family while pursuing new interest and opportunites'. Which is bureaucrat language for resign with dignity before we'll throw you out in disgrace. So, despite many fans who worry about Umbridge, I think she is essentially neutralized. Although, we can always hope she makes one last desperate mad power play in an attempt to salvage herself, which will certainly lead to the public humilication and punishment that we all eagerly hope she gets, and know she deserves. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 5 06:54:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 06:54:07 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, John Fisher wrote: > Lupinlore wrote: John: > Harry's *having* to kill somebody (besides Voldie) strikes me as > unlikely. Remember how in the MOM battle even the Death Eaters didn't > use Avada Kedavra? Between "stupify," "impedimenta," and > "expelliarmus," there really isn't much reason to use a killing spell > (a possible exception being that AK apparently can't be blocked). Geoff: If I may disagee, there were two at least attempts to use Avada Kedavra in the Ministry battle. One by an unknown DE: 'Harry saw the knees of the Death Eater bend; poking his wand out from under the desk, he shouted "STUPEFY!" A jet of red light hit the nearest Death Eater; he fell backwards into a grandfather clock and knocked it over; the second Death Eater, however, had leapt aside to avoid Harry's spell and was pointing his own wand at Hermione who was crawling out from under the desk to get a better aim. "Avada -" Harry launched himself across the floor and grabbed the Death Eater around the knees, causing him to topple and his aim to go awry.' (OOTP "Beyond the Veil" pp.696 UK edition) ...and one by the Big Boss: 'Voldemort paid no attention. "I have nothing to say to you, Potter" he said quietly. "You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA" Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist; his mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor. But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung alive, leaping from its plinth to land with a crash on the floor between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms to protect Harry.' (OOTP "The Only One He Ever Feared" p.717 UK edition) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 5 08:01:25 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 04:01:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is it with the Bones's? Message-ID: <156.54297483.2ffb9855@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131986 In a message dated 7/4/2005 11:42:45 PM Central Standard Time, jferer at yahoo.com writes: We keep predicting that the new Minister of Magic will be Amelia Bones, Susan's mother, and I just read a prediction that Harry's romantic interest will be Susan Bones. Why? Amelia Bones certainly could be the next MoM, but at this point she's just as much a stranger as anyone else. The same goes for Susan, her daughter, as Harry's love interest. Predicting either one is the same as predicting any other stranger. You can't be for either of them and you can't be against either one. Well Amelia Bones isn't Susan's mother. She's her Aunt. And I don't ship Harry with Susan . Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Tue Jul 5 10:31:51 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:31:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OWLs - UMBRIDGE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705103151.14735.qmail@web86707.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131987 bboyminn wrote: There are a lot of people speculating about Umbridge and her possible influence on the OWL results. I don't doubt that at some point Umbridge was planning to interfer in a way that would be negative to Harry, but given her status at the end of the book, I don't think she is in any position to interfer with anyone or anything. Now Fitzov: Actually, I think I am the only sad individual speculating that Harry will fail DADA, but I admit to having posted it several times! I don't deny that Umbridge's power had evaporated by the end of Book 5, but I believe she had already done her damage during the DADA practical. It seems unlikely that a character as malevolent as Umbridge will fail to have some lasting mark, and her legacy to Book 6 may just be the news right at the start that Harry has failed DADA and needs to rethink his career choice. This would lead to some really intersting possibilities since being an Unspeakable (for instance) sounds to me a whole load more challenging than being and Auror - especially if VM has been defeated by the time Harry starts his post-school career. Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 10:35:13 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:35:13 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: <42C9BA1C.9090106@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131988 Heather the Buzzard:"You know that brings up an interesting point. Since the spell IS so unstoppable, then why wouldn't the baddies just kill everyone and be done with it? What possible reason would there be for sparing their opponents, for using any other curse at all? I would wager that, like the Patronus, it's a spell that takes a huge amount of skill and that it 'drains' the caster. A more experienced and powerful wizard probably can do more with less 'drainage', it's less exhausting on them." Well done question! There's got to be a reason the DE's don't just AK wholesale. It sure isn't kindness or a sense of right and wrong, so it's got to be what you say. I've always believed that casting spells, like anything else, is tiring to a greater or lesser degree, and depend on the skill and experience of the operator. That implies that the fighting spells used in the MoM battle would be harder and harder to cast the longer the battle went on. BTW, if I was doing the after-action review for the DA, one of the first things I would have said is 1) "Whenever you Stunned or disabled a DE you should have broken his/her wand or at least taken it." (I'm sure the only reason Harry and his companions didn't do this is they didn't think of it) 2)"Is there any reason any of you can't carry a spare wand?" and 3) "There's an old saying in the Muggle military: Never, ever, leave living [effective] enemies in your rear." In this context it means Stunning them, tying them up with Incarcerous, hitting them with Petrificus, and taking their wands. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 10:44:58 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:44:58 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131989 Phoenixgod:"How could there be movie contamination? Amelia Bones seems like a strong canidate for a more proactive and fair-minded minister than Fudge. She was hard but fair towards Harry and seems to have a level head on her shoulders. She's also the head of magical law enforcement so she would make a good wartime leader as an ex-auror (I'm assuming). Not a stretch at all to suggest her." Oops. Aunt, sorry. I say movie contamination on account of Susan. Her name was speculated on because of her unduly common appearance in the first two movies. Columbus's daughter, and all that. Sure, Amelia is plausible. I agree, and it's not a stretch. We've just exhausted the reasons to suggest her. It may be her, maybe not. Susan for Harry? Maybe. Not much to go on. Jim Ferer From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 5 10:56:54 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:56:54 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131990 Jim wrote: > I say movie contamination on account of Susan. Her name was speculated > on because of her unduly common appearance in the first two movies. > Columbus's daughter, and all that. Potioncat: I agree with the movie contamination slant. Susan was all over the place in the first movie. But she is Columbus' daughter and more telling: she is American. So I would think if there was a canon related reason to advance her, JKR would have insisted she be played by a British actress. OTOH, Susan is probably one of the more likely choices for Harry, out of a long list. Jim: > Sure, Amelia is plausible. I agree, and it's not a stretch. We've just > exhausted the reasons to suggest her. It may be her, maybe not. > Potioncat: I don't think Amelia Bones will be the Minister of Magic. JKR answered "Unfortunately, no." When asked if Arthur will be the next Mininster. To me, that either indicates that something unfortunate is going on in Arthur's life; or that the choice for Minister is unfortunate. From what we've seen, Amelia would be a good choice. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 11:37:10 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:37:10 -0000 Subject: OWLs - UMBRIDGE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131991 >>In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: >>I'm still concerned about Umbridge's 'look' when he passed her >>upon leaving the Hall. I wouldn't be at all surprised to >>find that his written exam has been 'lost' and so he's only got >>50% and therefore just an 'Acceptable'. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" replied > There are a lot of people speculating about Umbridge and her > possible influence on the OWL results. I don't doubt that at some > point Umbridge was planning to interfer in a way that would be > negative to Harry, but given her status at the end of the book, I > don't think she is in any position to interfer with anyone or > anything. > Umbridge has, in a sense, lost all her authority and power, and any > attempts to interfer with the once again darling of the wizard > world, will bring her nothing but the pain and disgrace she so > justly deserves. Karen again: Oh I totally agree that she is unable to wreak further havoc *now*, but I think she had already destroyed Harry's written exam at the time of his practical. Hence her gloating look. "You may have surpassed yourself in the practical, Boy, but without the written paper you can only get a maximum of half-marks". If his written paper was not submitted for marking, no matter how out of influence Umbridge may now be, there's nothing anyone can do about it other than for Harry to do a re-sit in either November if WW is the same as RL or else the following year with Ginny's class. And that's making the assumption that you are allowed another chance in WW. Incidentally he would have to re-take both the written and practical if this follows RL. Karen From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 11:50:19 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:50:19 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131992 phoenixgod2000: > ...Amelia Bones seems like a strong canidate for a more proactive > and fair-minded minister than Fudge. She was hard but fair towards > Harry and seems to have a level head on her shoulders. She's also > the head of magical law enforcement so she would make a good > wartime leader as an ex-auror (I'm assuming). All good reasons why she probably won't be Minister, or, at least, not for long.... Harry won't be that lucky. Not until book 7, anyway. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 11:57:21 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:57:21 -0000 Subject: Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: <320259050704172723913747@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131993 > Sarah: > I feel that there is a reason why Tonks is so clumsy. And that is, > she's not in her "default" or natural form, which is something we have > yet to see. Or is it? I expect you're right, that or she changes her body configuration so often that she's not graceful anymore in any form. I don't know that she changes her face when she's around friends, though. That seems to be fairly consistent when she's not amusing the girls. If we haven't seen her natural face (I'm certain we haven't seen her natural hair!), I'll hazard a guess why: She looks too much like her Aunt Bella. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 12:08:31 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:08:31 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131994 Jim Ferer: > BTW, if I was doing the after-action review for the DA, one of the > first things I would have said is 1) "Whenever you Stunned or > disabled > a DE you should have broken his/her wand or at least taken it." (I'm > sure the only reason Harry and his companions didn't do this is they > didn't think of it) 2)"Is there any reason any of you can't carry a > spare wand?" That's a mighty fine question. It seems odd that JKR has never really addressed this. > and 3) "There's an old saying in the Muggle military: > Never, ever, leave living [effective] enemies in your rear." In this > context it means Stunning them, tying them up with Incarcerous, > hitting them with Petrificus, and taking their wands. Nah, do something that can't be reversed with a simple "Enervate" or "Finite Incantatem"--reproducing the spell that accidentally removed Harry's armbones in CoS would be about right. Do it to both arms. Maybe their legs, too. Amiable "Who says Lockhart was *totally* useless?" Dorsai From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 12:25:55 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:25:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705122555.5514.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 131995 tinglinger wrote: Hells: Very interesting. My comments and questions: 1. Tom Riddle was already using the name Lord Voldemort with his friends, as he says in CoS. 2. If the prophecy was fake and they wanted to lure Voldemort to Harry, why did they include Neville as a possible target? 3. Why did they leave Harry unprotected for a year after the prophecy was made. At the time of the prophecy Harry was not yet born, and the Potters didn't go into hiding until a week before they died when Harry was a year old. 4. It seems to be a silly idea of Dumbledore's to attempt the same method of defeat when the last time created a dark wizard who was worse than the one he was getting rid of. We are told in PS that Voldemort was the worst wizard in a century, pre-dating Gringelwald. 5. Why would Dumbledore allow Harry's upbringing to mirror Riddle's? Having him grow up orphaned, unhappy and unloved is running the risk of turning out another dark wizard. We know there are other people who can protect him. 6. It looks too OOC that Dumbledore would have experimented with Tom in the first place, far too much like Nazi human experiments. (If it works - great, if Tom dies - no big loss). 7. Why did the whole plan rely on Dumbledore being there, with no back up wizard to get rid of his soul? Did Pettigrew give them away too soon? 8. Your theory means that Dumbledore knowingly left Sirius to rot in Azkaban for 12 years. Does that sound right to you? What's your take on the Sirius/Peter Secret keeper business? 9. If the prophecy was created, why didn't they choose a full wizard like one of the Order members? Voldemort was picking them off anyway and at least they would have a fighting chance if anything went wrong. Why not pick James himself? We know he detested the Dark Arts and was unlikely to go bad. 10. So was the entire book 3 pointless? If it was a set-up there was no betrayal, no spy in the ranks of the Marauders. Do you really think that Dumbledore was cruel enough to ruin the lives of the Potters, Sirius, Peter and Remus? That he let the whole WW believe that Sirius was evil? That Peter's family thought he was dead for 12 years? Why didn't Dumbledore hold his hands up and say his plan went wrong? That he was directly responsible for Neville's parents because he allowed Neville to be a prophecy candidate? 11. Your theory suggests that Voldemort heard the prophecy anyway, so the main plot for OotP was also unnecessary. Why do you think he wanted the prophecy then? 12. I thought the Order was set up to defeat Voldemort, but you suggest that Voldemort only attacked them to pay back Dumbledore. What do you think the Order was doing before then? 13. I don't see why Lily had to die (or James for that matter) they knew Harry couldn't be harmed so why put up a fight? Lily at least could have merrily stood back and enjoyed seeing Voldemort vaporised. 14. How do you tie the house blowing up into all this? Could Harry have been seriously harmed anyway? 15. Why did Dumbledore wait so long (14 years of hell I think) before attempting this? 16. Your version of Dumbledore has a lot of blood on his hands, absolutely no regard for the consequences of his actions, and little to no morals. Do you believe the ESE Dumbledore theories? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 13:31:42 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:31:42 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131996 John Fisher --------------- It's brilliant: I particularly love the Tom/Harry symmetry, and the explanation for why Tom/Voldie first became enamoured with eternal life. tinglinger -------------- thanks - {blush} - I appreciate that... John Fisher ---------------- But there are a few things I don't like: 1) Dumbledore lied to Harry about the prophecy. 2) We've *seen* Sibyl Trelawney make a real prophecy. The first one might be bogus, but we shouldn't have a "prophecy ==> bunk" bias. What if Dumbledore had planned the Stonescapade already, including the role of the Potters, and then witnessed the prophecy, confirming (or re-arranging) his plan? tinglinger --------------- This is why if I was Archimedes shouting "Eureka!" in the bathtub I would have electrocuted myself... The prophecy isn't "completely" bogus - i have a tendency to use words that are too strong - more like "incomplete" with giant holes because of all the pauses and ellipsi (izzat a word?). I also refer to an unquoted part of Manxmouse at the very end of that book which I did not want to ruin. The gist of the end of Manxmouse (without ruining too much) is that prophecies don't have to come true - they can be altered by the occurrence of specific events. This is also mildly presaged by Firenze (we're centaurs but we don't know everything either...) If nothing else happens after Book 7 is released (if not before) I fervently hope that Jo does all in her power to get that book back into print again. It is almost impossible to find - Manxmouse by Paul Gallico - its on her bookshelf on her website. John Fisher --------------- 3) It seems out of character for Dumbledore to make anyone (Tom, in this case) the sacrificial guinea pig. The notion becomes palatable to the degree that there is mutual trust; but we saw in CoS that Dumbledore was suspicious of Tom from the beginning. Same goes for Dumbledore, much less Lily and James, letting Harry get AK'd under any circumstances. Tinglinger ------------ Sacrifice is a theme running all through the series - look at Lily. Not intentionally in her case, but there is a heavy precedent. (sidenote - I think that Luna's mom just may fit that mold too...) A true leader must make sacrifices for the good of all. If (s)he is too weak not to do so, all can be lost. Besides, if it didn't work TOm would have been "redeemed". John Fisher -------------- 4) It doesn't answer J.K.'s conundrum in a satisfying way: "The first question that I have never been asked--it has probably been asked in a chatroom but no one has ever asked me--is, 'Why didn't Voldemort die?' Not, 'Why did Harry live?' but, 'Why didn't Voldemort die?'" (In a sense it does--Dumbledore didn't get there in time to finish him off--but it seems cheap to pin it on logistics.) tinglinger -------------- Why didn't LV die from the AK could be explained by unicorn blood or posibly even one of the twelve uses of dragons blood that DD is famous for. Then again, we are not privy to exactly WHAT dark arts Voldemort had messed with.... John Fisher -------------- And, going on the assumption that the prophecy *isn't* bogus: 5) "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord approaches. Born.." It sure sounds like it's something innate to Harry, not something he was given. Which begs the question: what would happen if Voldie AK'ed Harry again? Shades of Uncle Remus and the Fabled Briar Patch: Hermione: "Nooo, V-V-Voldie, don't kill him! Don't hurt him! Don't use Avada Ked..." Voldemort: "AVADA KEDAVRA! Oop--" Hermione: "I hate when that happens." tinglinger -------------- Interesting question, but I don't think DD would ever have given him a second chance had he been there..... It would also be impossible for LV to do anything without a wand (or a body for that matter). He even says so in GOF (methinks) when telling the Death Eaters gathered around the graveyard that he was helpless without one... From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 13:42:29 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:42:29 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131997 cookiemacster --------------- This seems to be a very well thought out theory! a. Out of all the people in the WW why would Dumbledore choose Tom Riddle as his "pawn"? Wouldn't he choose someone more worthy of such an important task? Why choose a student, who you believe to be headed down a dark path, to help take down Grindelwald? Would he not be scared that Tom Riddle would betray him? tinglinger --------------- Who can fathom the mind of a dark wizard? Seriously, a student would be perceived as weak compared to a full grown wizard (only Lucius Malfoy would not be fooled) and Grindelwald would want to finish him off quickly with an AK and deal with DD without getting attacked by two wizards at once. AKs can only be effectively cast by experienced wizards (Moony quotes in classroom of GOF) and a student should not have an effective way to counter it (until Harry and DD that is...) Tom Riddle wouldn't betray the ONLY known makers of the Sorcerer's Stone if he wanted eternal life, would he? (maybe later, but not then...) cokiemachster -------------- b. With all the emphasis on the importance of the specific wording and such surrounding the prophecy, I'm a little uncertain I can believe that it is "bogus" and merely part of a strategy. Besides, in your theory you make it sound as though Voldemort had heard the prophecy in its entirety, which we are told is not true (don't have book handy, it's in the car! sorry no page number!). I don't really see how that part can fit into your theory... more details please! tinglinger --------------- please see previous post where I apologise for the use of "bogus" - should be "incomplete" with all those ellipsises (second spelling). Once again, Jo,please use your power to get Manxmouse back in print! From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 13:58:48 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:58:48 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131998 > Potioncat: > I agree with the movie contamination slant. Susan was all over the > place in the first movie. But she is Columbus' daughter and more > telling: she is American. So I would think if there was a canon related > reason to advance her, JKR would have insisted she be played by a > British actress. OTOH, Susan is probably one of the more likely choices > for Harry, out of a long list. > > Jim: > > Sure, Amelia is plausible. I agree, and it's not a stretch. We've just > > exhausted the reasons to suggest her. It may be her, maybe not. > > > > Potioncat: > I don't think Amelia Bones will be the Minister of Magic. JKR > answered "Unfortunately, no." When asked if Arthur will be the next > Mininster. To me, that either indicates that something unfortunate is > going on in Arthur's life; or that the choice for Minister is > unfortunate. From what we've seen, Amelia would be a good choice. Antosha: Well, it's also possible that it's unfortunate simply because JKR thinks that it would be nice for things to swing in Arthur's direction. I expect him to end up as MfM at some point-- but then, I'm a big believer in Seer!Ron. I think Madam Bones is the second most likely candidate for Fudge's replacement. The first? A Ministry employee with an axe to grind... and no reason to like Harry: Amos Diggory. As for Susan... I disagree with the movie contamination angle. I didn't even realize that the ubiquitous moon-faced girl with the plait was Susan until recently (she looked more Hannah-like to me), and I'd already decided Susan was on the short list, along with the three girls who traveled with Harry to the Ministry. There are reasons to suppose that any of the four might end up as Harry's girlfriend. We'll just need to wait and see. Hey, speaking of which, as we approach July 16, it occurs to me once again to point out that, given her affection for Jane Austen, we probably shouldn't take any relationships that develop in HBP as the final port in the shipping debate, yes? So may we all promise not to gnash our teeth or cry victory if Harry ends up going to Hogsmeade with... whoever... alone? She MAY let us know how things are going to settle out by the end of the book, or she may just let us dangle until book seven. From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 5 13:53:24 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:53:24 -0000 Subject: Tonks as a plot device In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 131999 tinglinger: > > Does anyone here feel that Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be used by JKR to suprise us at least once during HBP? Amiable Dorsai: > In any case, I agree: Tonks' ability is way too cool to waste doing > tricks for Ginny and Hermione. Rachael: Someone wrote in their predictions that Tonks would be the next DADA teacher, but in disguise. This could work because it would seem to follow the pattern of the DADA teacher being a new character (since Harry wouldn't be told that it's Tonks), and her clumsiness would be the clue that it was her all along. It would work out because she's an auror and would be useful at Hogwarts. Not sure if I completely buy it, but it could be the way that her ability could be used by JKR. Rachael From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 14:02:56 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:02:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c5816a$3fc5a0c0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132000 Susan for Harry? Maybe. Not much to go on. Jim Ferer Sherry now: I would find Susan and Harry as out of the blue as some, such as PhoenixGod2000 find Ginny's development as a character. In fact, with only two books left in the series, it would seem strange to suddenly develop a minor character enough to make her a romantic interest for the main character. Sherry From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 14:12:49 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:12:49 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: <20050705122555.5514.qmail@web26304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132001 hells456 ----------- > tinglinger wrote My comments and questions: tinglinger ------------ I will try to answer as many as i can here and now, but will respond to others later today or tomorrow... 1. HB - Tom Riddle was already using the name Lord Voldemort with his friends, as he says in CoS. T - True, but he was still the boy Tom Riddle while at Hogwarts. Lord Voldemort didn't inspire fear until much later imo. 2. HB - If the prophecy was fake and they wanted to lure Voldemort to Harry, why did they include Neville as a possible target? T- please see comments in last two posts - I am backing off of "fake" or "bogus" and substituting "incomplete" -- this is supported more by what happens in Manxmouse. They included Neville to delay Voldemort as much as possible. Maybe the EOL needed a long cycle to brew. 3. HB - Why did they leave Harry unprotected for a year after the prophecy was made. At the time of the prophecy Harry was not yet born, and the Potters didn't go into hiding until a week before they died when Harry was a year old. T - good one ..... let me think about it 4. HB - It seems to be a silly idea of Dumbledore's to attempt the same method of defeat when the last time created a dark wizard who was worse than the one he was getting rid of. We are told in PS that Voldemort was the worst wizard in a century, pre-dating Gringelwald. T - the dark wizard was already festering as per #1 above. This also is why DD is so hung up over "choices" rather than "abilities".... Riddle's turn to the dark side was DD's failure in his first plan. He was hoping not to fail again the second time. 5. HB - Why would Dumbledore allow Harry's upbringing to mirror Riddle's? Having him grow up orphaned, unhappy and unloved is running the risk of turning out another dark wizard. We know there are other people who can protect him. T - I don't think that anyone was really "watching" Riddle grow up as much as Harry was being watched. There clearly was an advantage to harry being sheltered from the WW. 6. HB - It looks too OOC that Dumbledore would have experimented with Tom in the first place, far too much like Nazi human experiments. (If it works - great, if Tom dies - no big loss). T - Hmmm alchemists experiment all the time. I really did not want to get into ethical issues. As for character issues, Dumbledore has been shown several times not to be the nice grandfatherly wizard we are led to believe -the word "terrible" is used at least once to describe his appearance - not that he IS terrible, but he sure can be if the occasion calls for it.... 7. HB - Why did the whole plan rely on Dumbledore being there, with no back up wizard to get rid of his soul? Did Pettigrew give them away too soon? T - SOMEONE gave him away too soon! That's for sure.... It could have been someone besides DD but that brings extra wizards into the plan - DD alone is the simplest.... but there certainly could have been another/others there. 8. HB - Your theory means that Dumbledore knowingly left Sirius to rot in Azkaban for 12 years. Does that sound right to you? What's your take on the Sirius/Peter Secret keeper business? T - I have posted on this before - look for the Droobles Gum Wrapper theory and the events at the Shrieking Shack - here in HPFGU or in my yahoogroup potterplots. 9. HB - If the prophecy was created, why didn't they choose a full wizard like one of the Order members? Voldemort was picking them off anyway and at least they would have a fighting chance if anything went wrong. Why not pick James himself? We know he detested the Dark Arts and was unlikely to go bad. T - see earlier posts today for answer - Grindelwald would be a lot more direct in killing a student with an AK than an order member. 10. HB - So was the entire book 3 pointless? If it was a set-up there was no betrayal, no spy in the ranks of the Marauders. Do you really think that Dumbledore was cruel enough to ruin the lives of the Potters, Sirius, Peter and Remus? That he let the whole WW believe that Sirius was evil? That Peter's family thought he was dead for 12 years? Why didn't Dumbledore hold his hands up and say his plan went wrong? That he was directly responsible for Neville's parents because he allowed Neville to be a prophecy candidate? T - {sound of brain exploding!} whoa -- lots of questions there - will handle later.... 12. HB - I thought the Order was set up to defeat Voldemort, but you suggest that Voldemort only attacked them to pay back Dumbledore. What do you think the Order was doing before then? T - Voldemort was attacking EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that didn't side with him. The Order being loyal to DD was merely a more appetizing target. 13. HB - I don't see why Lily had to die (or James for that matter) they knew Harry couldn't be harmed so why put up a fight? Lily at least could have merrily stood back and enjoyed seeing Voldemort vaporised. T - aw, c'mon - she's a MUM! And the dark lord was attacking her firstborn after killing her husband. There were no guarantees. Also {another spoiler, but if you have gotten this far....} Lily has the same eyes {and attributes?} as a sphynx (see GOF and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them) and sphynxes "are usually dangerous only when what it is guarding is threatened". In addition, the plan was going horribly wrong at that point, and protecting Harry was all that mattered. 11. HB - Your theory suggests that Voldemort heard the prophecy anyway, so the main plot for OotP was also unnecessary. Why do you think he wanted the prophecy then? 14. HB - How do you tie the house blowing up into all this? Could Harry have been seriously harmed anyway? 15. HB - Why did Dumbledore wait so long (14 years of hell I think) before attempting this? T - need more time on these ... and I don't have a time turner.... 16. HB - Your version of Dumbledore has a lot of blood on his hands, absolutely no regard for the consequences of his actions, and little to no morals. Do you believe the ESE Dumbledore theories? T - Absolutely not! A strong leader has to do what (s)he has to do - and tough choices must be made for the good (and survival) of the Wizarding community. Thanks for your compliment! I hope I answered most of your questions to your satisfaction. tinglinger From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 14:29:21 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:29:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002d01c5816d$f00eb040$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132002 I can't possibly snip everything I want, so I'll just give you my gut response to this. First of all, I sincerely congratulate you on all the work you've done to devise this theory. Funny, as the release gets closer, I find I am less interested in trying to figure things out, because soon, at least some of my questions will be answered, I hope. But you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Having said that, well, I would find this, if it is true, a big cop out and for me, the story would become a farce. It makes Dumbledore out to be a monster, a complete, unethical monster, and it would make everything he has stood for a lie. His nice comments about choice and all the other things would be a joke. JKR's comments about him would be lies, too, not that she isn't capable of misdirection, of course. I prefer the idea of Lily's ancient blood magic. It's simpler and cleaner. What parents would willingly let their child be cursed? The blood magic is something I can see any mother with the knowledge or skill to do such magic attempting to protect her child, when she knows she and her husband and child are at risk. I like Harry as the "every person" the one any old person can relate to. If he's some super designer kid, that would be degrading to his role so far. Again, it's a really great theory, but I sure hope you are wrong. I agree with what another person said on this thread, that it would make books 3 and 5 meaningless. Dumbledore letting Sirius rot in Azkaban would be inexcusable. His character doesn't seem to be the type to do such a thing. Even though a leader must sometimes make hard choices, Dumbledore seems to be the type who would feel that the needs of the one occasionally outweigh the needs of the many. Good work! Sherry From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 16:02:08 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:02:08 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: <002d01c5816d$f00eb040$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132003 Sherry Gomes --------------- I would find this, if it is true, a big cop out and for me, the story would become a farce. It makes Dumbledore out to be monster, a complete, unethical monster, and it would make everything he has stood for a lie. tinglinger --------------- I don't think that would be the case. Consider the times they are living in.... and remember Remus Lupin's comment to a panic-stricken Molly Weasley --- "Molly, thats enough," said Lupin firmly. "this isn't like last time. The Order is better prepared ... you weren't in the Order then, you don't understand, last time WE WERE OUTNUMBERED TWENTY TO ONE by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one ..." (OOP - CHAPTER 9 - THE WOES OF MRS. WEASLEY pg 177 us ed) TWENTY TO ONE !!!! They were getting their butts kicked and 20-1 are pretty horrendous odds to be going on with .... They were desperate and Dumbledore had a plan ...... not a neat and clean plan, but a plan - a plan that, if it worked - and it had once before - would rid the death eaters of its leader. JKR showed us how everything crumbled instantaneously for the DE's once Voldemort was gone. So if Dumbledore was later judged to be immoral, which is a judgment and is indeed debateable, at least there would be a free wizarding world around to hear it..... (and us poor muggles would get a book or two or seven ... ) Think: If you were in an alley surrounded by 20 people waiting to do you harm, would you be thinking about the ethical thing to do? Sherry Gomes ------------------ His nice comments about choice and all the other things would be a joke. JKR's comments about him would be lies, too, not that she isn't capable of misdirection, of course. tinglinger ---------------- JKR, like Dumbledore, wouldn't lie, but she would not answer every question thrown at her. (side note - that's one of the main reasons I feel that Luna will be very important in HBP, Jo hardly talked about her AT ALL!) To fools like me, EVERYTHING IS A CLUE! And choice IS an issue - that is why Harry will turn out differently from Riddle in the end.... DD certainly hopes so... {and so do we muggle types ....} Sherry Gomes -------------------- I prefer the idea of Lily's ancient blood magic. It's simpler and cleaner. What parents would willingly let their child be cursed? The blood magic is something I can see any mother with the knowledge or skill to do such magic attempting to protect her child, when she knows she and her husband and child are at risk. tinglinger -------------------- I like that idea too, but 20-1 ... 20-1 ... JKR has also went to great length to show that at least James was not as pure and heroic as Harry {or the readers} first assumed. If he was, your criticism would have a lot more validity - James is NOT perfect by any means and not idealistic enough or foolish enough to let anything stand in the way of his survival. And per JKR, we haven't heard the last about Lily either, so I am not sure what suprises are in store for us regarding her..... Remember again, if DD is right, the Potters are rich, Harry is unharmed, and the wizarding world is saved - a nice trifecta! But .... If nothing is done, well... not much better than 20-1 ... And who is to say that the Potters wouldn't have been picked off by death eaters later on if nothing was done? Really, what BETTER choice did they have at that time??? I just don't think Jo wanted to write VIVA VOLDY! the inside story of APOCALYPSE NOW IN THE WIZARDING WORLD and the Massacare of the Order and Subjugation of the Muggles she would have left that to Rita Skeeter or Geraldo or the British Tabloids .... more later ... From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 16:04:56 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:04:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705160456.97188.qmail@web26307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132004 1. Hells - Tom Riddle was already using the name Lord Voldemort with his friends, as he says in CoS. Ting - True, but he was still the boy Tom Riddle while at Hogwarts. Lord Voldemort didn't inspire fear until much later imo. Hells now: sorry, I misunderstood you here, I thought you were saying he went off and became Lord Voldemort afterwards, not that he was already on that path. 5. Hells - Why would Dumbledore allow Harry's upbringing to mirror Riddle's? Having him grow up orphaned, unhappy and unloved is running the risk of turning out another dark wizard. We know there are other people who can protect him. Ting - I don't think that anyone was really "watching" Riddle grow up as much as Harry was being watched. There clearly was an advantage to harry being sheltered from the WW. Hells now: To my mind, Harry was mostly unaware of being watched, I was more concerned with the actual nature of his unhappy childhood. I still don't see exactly why he was better off with muggles. We know he is safe with Dumbledore, the Weasleys, at Hogwarts, in Diagon Alley and probably other places. The only disadvantage I see if he had been brought up in the WW is that he really would have been arrogant like his dad. What advantages/disadvantages do you see? 10. Hells - So was the entire book 3 pointless? If it was a set-up there was no betrayal, no spy in the ranks of the Marauders. Do you really think that Dumbledore was cruel enough to ruin the lives of the Potters, Sirius, Peter and Remus? That he let the whole WW believe that Sirius was evil? That Peter's family thought he was dead for 12 years? Why didn't Dumbledore hold his hands up and say his plan went wrong? That he was directly responsible for Neville's parents because he allowed Neville to be a prophecy candidate? Ting - {sound of brain exploding!} whoa -- lots of questions there - will handle later.... Hells now: oops, and I had just cleaned my monitor... :-) 12. Hells - I thought the Order was set up to defeat Voldemort, but you suggest that Voldemort only attacked them to pay back Dumbledore. What do you think the Order was doing before then? Ting - Voldemort was attacking EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that didn't side with him. The Order being loyal to DD was merely a more appetizing target. Hells now: again I misread you, I thought you said he only went after them to get Dumbledore for lying about immortality. 13. Hells - I don't see why Lily had to die (or James for that matter) they knew Harry couldn't be harmed so why put up a fight? Lily at least could have merrily stood back and enjoyed seeing Voldemort vaporised. Ting - aw, c'mon - she's a MUM! And the dark lord was attacking her firstborn after killing her husband. There were no guarantees. Hells now: I'm a mum too and I would kill for my child. What I couldn't understand was the difference between leaving the house for him to be AK'd and watching him rebound the curse at Voldemort. As a mother she wouldn't be able to leave him there with Dumbledore either. If there were no guarantees I don't believe the Potters would have gone along with it, no matter what the end prize is. 16. Hells - Your version of Dumbledore has a lot of blood on his hands, absolutely no regard for the consequences of his actions, and little to no morals. Do you believe the ESE Dumbledore theories? Ting - Absolutely not! A strong leader has to do what (s)he has to do - and tough choices must be made for the good (and survival) of the Wizarding community. Hells now: I understand this, but the questions I asked earlier reflect situations that would not have impacted the wizarding community. There was no benefit to Sirius being in Azkaban, the Longbottoms being incapacitated, Peter being stuck as a rat with his family in mourning, Remus losing his best friends. thinking another was dead and another was a betrayer. The only benefit I see is to Dumbledore himself because he wouldn't be seen as incompetent and reckless. In fact these incidents would negatively impact the community because they have four less Order members. Ting - Thanks for your compliment! I hope I answered most of your questions to your satisfaction. Hells now: this is the best theory I have heard in a long time. I love the cyclical nature of it, just the sort of thing JKR uses. A lot more could be explained if you believe Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. If that was the case then Dumbledore may not have a choice, it would have to be Harry, and he had to use Tom. This would absolve him of a lot of evilness. Maybe only the founders' Heirs can wield enough power to become a truly Dark Wizard or defeat one. I wonder whose descendent Grindelwald was - Ravenclaw? I believe that Dumbledore is Hufflepuff's heir. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 16:14:29 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:14:29 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132005 Kitten says: I am a big supporter of Minister!Amilia and Harry/Susan... and I think you are forgetting JKR's literary pattern of "slowly" introducing important things. In the first Book Hagrid, Telling Harry about Voldimort, mentions the Bones. Much the same way that he mention Siruis Black lending the motorcycle. Then you have a girl Susan being sorted... then until book five we never hear from her again. Then not only do we get a better glimpse of Susan... but we meet her aunt... who seems to have a very interesting job, especially during war time. Which is interesting if they are "just names." I don't if Harry and Susan are going to get together... for all I know we could never her from her again... and the next minister could be oprah whinfry... But I believe the Bones family is going to be important... and it has everything to do with the way they have been introduced in the books. As for movie contamination... if you go to JKR's website she states that she has no control over casting... IMHO I think the thing she only really gets into is the script... and I think as each movie passes... she gives less and less input, and even that is contained to making sure they don't leave out important stuff. Harry/Susan being a long shot... well, truthfully you can say that about any ship... for all the big talk of H/Hr, H/G, and H/L... they have no "superior" "more canon then thou" clues. In fact much like the Harry/Susan ship... they only really have is shipper's wishful thinking and personal interpretation. You can't convince me that one is more likely then the other if one was; we wouldn't be having these debates. kitten... Jim Ferer said: We keep predicting that the new Minister of Magic will be Amelia Bones, Susan's mother, and I just read a prediction that Harry's romantic interest will be Susan Bones. Why? Amelia Bones certainly could be the next MoM, but at this point she's just as much a stranger as anyone else. The same goes for Susan, her daughter, as Harry's love interest. Predicting either one is the same as predicting any other stranger. You can't be for either of them and you can't be against either one. I suspect movie contamination here.... From k.coble at comcast.net Tue Jul 5 15:50:29 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:50:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132006 No offense, but how can you call your theory, which is what all of this is (and it's only one of your many theories...) a spoiler? From seven_uk03 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 14:43:41 2005 From: seven_uk03 at hotmail.com (Sarah) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:43:41 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132007 First of all hello to everyone, I've just joined this group. (waves) I gained a double award GCSE for Science, which means I took 5 exams and achieved 2 Science GCSE's and a higher paper GCSE. So yes, Harry could get more than one OWL per subject. I don't think this would work the same way for NEWT's though, as the A Level equivalent in England only awards a single grade per subject, as far as I'm aware. At least I don't know of anyone at my college who got more than one grade for a single subject. Hope that answers your question. Seven x From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 5 17:01:13 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:01:13 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald (was Re: MAJOR ... ALCHEMIST THEORY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132008 --- "tinglinger" wrote: > and second .... even more important ........ > > BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND > SUCCEEDED..... almost. > > When? in his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945. > Huh? Howzzzat? > > How The Dark Wizard Grindelwald was Defeated > --------------------------------------------- > Remember, Tom Riddle was in his final year at > Hogwarts in 1945. aussie At last someone talks of Grindelwald (called "DWG" for Dark Wizard Grindelwald in the rest of this post). According to the Choc Frog card, DWG was DEFEATED, not "KILLED". Can we say the LV was DEFEATED, not KILLED, when Harry was a baby? Could DWG have found a willing disciple in young Tom Riddle at the time he needed a new body most? DWG could have set the example for LV's body hopping (re: Quirrel and his re-appearance in GOF). It is no accident that JKR made DWG and Tom disappear the same year, or why would she mention the 1945 on the Card to start with. .. And if you hold that as a possibility, was DWG "body-jacked" by other Dark Wizards of old? (DD said Harry in Hospital in PS/SS "He [LV] is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed.") So how far back could it be? Longer than 665 years (Flamel's age)? Why not the original SALAZAR SLYTHERIN who "disappeared" 1000 years ago? aussie: (excuse me if a take a day before getting back on-line to answer critiques) From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 5 17:07:33 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:07:33 -0000 Subject: Flamel for DADA Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132009 aussie: BTW, Nicholas Flamel ended PS/SS with enough elixer to get his affairs in order. How much of elixer would he have? Weeks worth? Months? Several years ? If Flamel is still kicking, he has a welth of knowledge that he may be willing to empart on Hogwarts students in the form of DADA teacher for a year. After all, he the OLDEST lion you'd ever have the chance to meet aussie. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 16:15:19 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:15:19 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132010 Hi, I'm new to the group, so I apologize if this has been hashed out in extreme detail in the past. But here is my question: if time- traveling-Harry conjured the Patronus that saved original-Harry's life, then how did Harry survive in the first place to end up in the hospital and become time-traveling-Harry? I see two explanations. Either this is just one of those logical quirks that make time-travel such a complicated concept to write about, which we just have to accept and ignore, OR, Dumbledore saved him the first time, and then basically came up with the plan that he had them put into action to save Sirius. I keep thinking back to SS/PS and the fact that Dumbledore sort of led Harry into a confrontation with Quirrell (and prepared him for it, such as with the Mirror of Erised and the cloak), and his speech in OotP about his "plan," and I wonder just how much more he is controlling everything than we realize. The problem with time travel is that as soon as events are changed, there is basically a "lost" past that happened, but that no one remembers. It gets complicated when you are showing how things originally happened and how they were changed. But I think it is clear that Harry encountered the Dementors before he was in the hospital, so who saved him from them before he went back in time to save himself? Dave From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 17:21:50 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:21:50 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132011 Dave's post made me think that there really should be an 8th book - but it should be Dumbledore's diary, or something like that, where we find out exactly how he masterminded everything that happened through all 7 books. Why would you give an 11 year old, with no experience in magic, an invisibility cloak - knowing what Dumbledore knew? That is just one question among hundreds that have been asked...wouldn't it be sweet if we had Dumbledore's words to let us know the truth? KathyO --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Hi, I'm new to the group, so I apologize if this has been hashed out > in extreme detail in the past. But here is my question: if time- > traveling-Harry conjured the Patronus that saved original-Harry's > life, then how did Harry survive in the first place to end up in the > hospital and become time-traveling-Harry? > > I see two explanations. Either this is just one of those logical > quirks that make time-travel such a complicated concept to write > about, which we just have to accept and ignore, OR, Dumbledore saved > him the first time, and then basically came up with the plan that he > had them put into action to save Sirius. > > I keep thinking back to SS/PS and the fact that Dumbledore sort of > led Harry into a confrontation with Quirrell (and prepared him for > it, such as with the Mirror of Erised and the cloak), and his speech > in OotP about his "plan," and I wonder just how much more he is > controlling everything than we realize. > > The problem with time travel is that as soon as events are changed, > there is basically a "lost" past that happened, but that no one > remembers. It gets complicated when you are showing how things > originally happened and how they were changed. But I think it is > clear that Harry encountered the Dementors before he was in the > hospital, so who saved him from them before he went back in time to > save himself? > > > Dave From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 17:32:07 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:32:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CAC417.1070702@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132012 davenclaw wrote: >Hi, I'm new to the group, so I apologize if this has been hashed out >in extreme detail in the past. But here is my question: if time- >traveling-Harry conjured the Patronus that saved original-Harry's >life, then how did Harry survive in the first place to end up in the >hospital and become time-traveling-Harry? > > >The problem with time travel is that as soon as events are changed, >there is basically a "lost" past that happened, but that no one >remembers. It gets complicated when you are showing how things >originally happened and how they were changed. > heather now: Basically, the resolution of the paradox is that there *IS* no change. That it is impossible to *change* history. Harry was saved because the future Harry saved him, it had "already" happened. Heh. This is a bit clearer if we think it through... say there WAS an original 'lost' time. Perhaps, as you suggested, Dumbledore saved Harry. This Harry went on to cast the patronus, which now replaced Dumbledore's saving and saved himself. Now the Harry that was just saved is a DIFFERENT Harry, with different experiences and memories than the one that DD saved. Who's to say that's he's going to do exactly the same thing that the first Harry did? This sets up a never-ending loop as well, rather than a single time stream with a 'fold' in it. Of course lots of sci-fi does use this 'loop' idea of time travel, and it can be quite entertaining. Several Star Trek episodes come to mind... heh... Here's another issue... if DD 'originally' saved Harry, then Harry went back in time, wouldn't he see DD trying to save Harry? DD wouldn't know that "this time" he shouldn't do it, because it's still the "first time" to him. Also, Harry was able to cast the Patronus because he had seen himself do it and knew he could. If DD saved him, then how would he be able to conjure it up in order for himself to see it? If he was able to do it anyway, then the whole point of seeing-therefore-knowing would have been lost. It is hard on the brain, which is why time travel is such a delicate subject to write about. But I think the way to think of it in JKR's Potterverse, is that there is no 'originally happened' and 'how they were changed'. It only happened one way, and that one way included the time fold, and always did. You have to look at time from the outside, rather than from the inside of a straight line. heather the buzzard From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 17:39:59 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705173959.3902.qmail@web33711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132013 davenclaw: > The problem with time travel is that as soon as > events are changed, > there is basically a "lost" past that happened, but > that no one > remembers. Marozi: This isn't how it works in the Potterverse, though. There is no "first time" or "lost past," the two Harrys coexisted in a single linear time. By the time Harry wound up in the hospital, he had already saved himself, he just didn't know it yet. History didn't change (and in this model, could not be changed), Harry just understood his own part in it better. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 17:46:53 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CAC417.1070702@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050705174653.76020.qmail@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132014 --- heather the buzzard: > It is hard on the brain, which is why time travel is > such a delicate > subject to write about. But I think the way to > think of it in JKR's > Potterverse, is that there is no 'originally > happened' and 'how they > were changed'. Marozi: Ha, you beat me to it. I think the difficulty of the concept is why they added several events to the movie version of POA - the thrown rock, Hermione doing the werewolf call - which make clear that the time-travelers are *already present* the first time through, in order to help viewers understand what happens with the Patronus. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 18:04:59 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:04:59 -0000 Subject: Flamel for DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > aussie: > BTW, Nicholas Flamel ended PS/SS with enough elixer to get his > affairs in order. How much of elixer would he have? Weeks worth? > Months? Several years ? > > If Flamel is still kicking, he has a welth of knowledge that he may > be willing to empart on Hogwarts students in the form of DADA > teacher for a year. > > After all, he the OLDEST lion you'd ever have the chance to meet > > aussie. bboyminn: Ahhh.... if it were only true, unfortunately, JKR recently posted on her website that Flamel was dead. I too have speculated for a long time now that to someone who is nearly 700 years old, 'time to get your affairs in order' could be as long as 10 years. Remember how fast time flies by when you get older. In addition, I thought Flamel would be an excellent character. Imagine the wisdom he would accumulate in almost 700 years. So, I was really hoping we would get to meet him in person, but alas it is not meant to be. JK Rowling Website - Rumors Section http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 "Q: Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions" "A: Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands." Sorry to be the bringer of bad news. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 18:15:41 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:15:41 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: <002a01c5816a$3fc5a0c0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132016 > Sherry now: > I would find Susan and Harry as out of the blue as some, such as > PhoenixGod2000 find Ginny's development as a character. In fact, with only > two books left in the series, it would seem strange to suddenly develop a > minor character enough to make her a romantic interest for the main > character. As a passing interest, maybe, but like you, I don't see bringing in a relative newcomer at this stage. And I agree that anything that happens in this book is not the final word, if there ever is a final word. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 18:18:02 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:18:02 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <20050705173959.3902.qmail@web33711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132017 > Marozi: > > This isn't how it works in the Potterverse, though. > There is no "first time" or "lost past," the two > Harrys coexisted in a single linear time. By the time > Harry wound up in the hospital, he had already saved > himself, he just didn't know it yet. History didn't > change (and in this model, could not be changed), > Harry just understood his own part in it better. > This still doesn't make sense. Let's think of it this way. Harry and Hermione experience the same three hour block of time in three different ways: - the original way, before time was changed - the altered way - as time-travelers Reading through it again, I realize that WE NEVER SEE THE ORIGINAL EVENTS. We only see the events as they were changed, and the events from the perspective of the time-travlers. Here is the problem: In order for Harry to end up in the hospital and use the time-turner, he had to have been saved from the Dementors. In order for him to have been saved from the Dementors, he had to have gone back in time. But the moment when Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione to use the time-turner is a discrete event. We only see this event from the perspective of a Harry and Hermione whose memory now only reflects the altered past - thus Harry now only remembers seeing his own Patronus, even though he hasn't actually created it yet. I understand what everyone is saying about how once events are changed, they are changed. But this ignores the basic fact that there were events that took place prior to Harry and Hermione going back in time - otherwise, what were they changing? And remember when Dumbledore says they can save two innocent lives? Clearly he is speaking as though Buckbeak had been executed. But when we re- read the events as they were written, we see that maybe the dropping of the ax was when he threw it at a fence. The idea seems to be that we are lead to believe he has been executed, but we are actually seeing the altered events, which we don't understand until we read that part. But I think it is JKR's intention that the FIRST TIME we read through the events, we are seeing them as they were altered. And yet, Dumbledore implies that Buckbeak had been executed. This is a huge problem - if everyone's memory is of events as they were altered, how can Harry remember his Patronus while Dumbledore still thinks that Buckbeak has been executed? The easy explanation is that he KNOWS that Buckbeak escaped - his only memory is of the altered events - but he also knows that he escaped BECAUSE of the actions of the kids, which he now has to instigate. Now, regarding the point that someone else made, that if Dumbledore had saved Harry the first time, he would have seen it when he went back. Now perhaps - perhaps - Dumbledore was about to save him from somewhere that Harry couldn't see. So Dumbledore saves him, comes up with the time-travel idea, and next time around, just when he is about to save Harry, TT-Harry conjures the Patronus and Dumbledore witnesses this and says "huh, looks like those kids went back in time! What a great idea!" So in the altered timeline, the time- travel idea is inspired by witnessing the consequences of the idea itself - but in the ORIGINAL events, he came up with the idea anyway. It's all quite confusing, but my overall point is that there is a sequence of events that occurred before the moment when they went back in time, which we never see, and no one in the story knows anything about. - davenclaw From brossiter at dc.rr.com Tue Jul 5 18:28:26 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (brossiter at dc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:28:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flamel for DADA Teacher Message-ID: <491d4249575f.49575f491d42@socal.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132018 bboyminn wrote: " << snip >> In addition, I thought Flamel would be an excellent character. Imagine the wisdom he would accumulate in almost 700 years. So, I was really hoping we would get to meet him in person, but alas it is not meant to be. << snip >> brossiter responds: That's not necessarily accurate. All JKR said in response to the rumour question about Flamel potentially being a new potions instructor was that Flamel has "now died." This does not necessarily disqualify Flamel from a teaching post at Hogwarts - just ask Professor Binns. Indeed, given the possibility that Flamel might continue to exist in this world as a ghost, JKR did not really give a definitive answer to this rumour question. That being said, given what we now know about who becomes a ghost and who does not, courtesy of Nearly Headless Nick, I doubt seriously that Nicholas Flamel is now a ghost or otherwise failed to properly pass through the veil. He's already had an extra 600+ years on earth, and probably has seen and done everything he thought worth seeing or doing. Ghost or not, if Flamel had truly been the best qualified DADA instructor or otherwise had crucial information to convey to Hogwarts DADA students (Harry or whomever), and was truly amenable to such a posting, then Dumbledore would never have hired Gilderoy Lockhart, nor would have he been unable to fill the post prior to Harry's fifth year. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 18:36:48 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:36:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132019 Jim Ferer (me):"3) "There's an old saying in the Muggle military: Never, ever, leave living [effective] enemies in your rear." In this context it means Stunning them, tying them up with Incarcerous, hitting them with Petrificus, and taking their wands." Amiable Dorsai: "Nah, do something that can't be reversed with a simple "Enervate" or "Finite Incantatem"--reproducing the spell that accidentally removed Harry's armbones in CoS would be about right. Do it to both arms. Maybe their legs, too." Ouch, you're ruthless. Good. We want these enemies neutralized and out of the fight. The only reason Harry didn't do it is inexperience. As far as the spare wand thing goes, we know that wizards can use a wand not their own, even if the results aren't as good. What is to stop Harry from having Mr. Olivander make him a ten inch holly wand with a tail feather from Fawkes? Would that wand behave the same as his original one? Is there a reason a wizard can't do this for a spare? If this is possible, Harry and all the fighters on the good side would be well advised to do this. Jim Ferer From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 18:39:49 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:39:49 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <20050705173959.3902.qmail@web33711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madam Marozi wrote: > > > davenclaw: > > > The problem with time travel is that as soon as events are > > changed, there is basically a "lost" past that happened, but > > that no one remembers. > Marozi: > > This isn't how it works in the Potterverse, though. > There is no "first time" or "lost past," the two > Harrys coexisted in a single linear time. By the time > Harry wound up in the hospital, he had already saved > himself, he just didn't know it yet. History didn't > change (and in this model, could not be changed), > Harry just understood his own part in it better. bboyminn: Well, I won't go into this in depth because Marozi has already made the key point, time only happens once. I have responded to this before and have several long essays on the subject, but it doesn't seem necessary to post them again. In linear time, at 5:59pm, Harry, Ron, and Hermione arrive in the Entrance Hall and hide in the broom cupboard/closet. They hide there waiting to make sure the Entrance Hall is clear. At 6:01pm, they hear footsteps, those foot steps are TimeTravel!Harry and TT!Hermione hiding in another cupboard/closet. That's the first clue that JKR gives us that both the normal characters and the TimeTraveling characters are existing at the same time. A clue that is re-enforced when we view the scene a second time from TT!Harry and TT!Hermione's perspective. >From that point on, each set of characters travels through the events and sees them from their own unique persepctive, and there in is the second key to the events. We don't seem time happen twice, we see time happen once from two different perspectives. Another way to look at it is, we don't have two times, we have one time with two Harrys. People often wonder why someone doesn't go back in time and, for example, save Sirius from falling through the Veil. The answer is that if TT!Harry had been there to save him, then Sirius would have been saved. Since he wasn't saved, then no time traveler was there to save him. Again, linear time marches forward, at some point before Sirius's death, Harry or the appropraite time traveler enters the time line. That happens BEFORE Sirius's death which means someone is there to try and prevent the death. Since Sirius died, either the time traveler failed or the time traveler was never there. There will always be a degree of paradox in time travel, we have to accept that. But in simple terms, the fact that no time traveler saved Sirius tells us that no one time traveled in an attempt to save him. Since Harry was there to save himself from the Dementors, then it is an established historical fact that he was there the whole time just waiting to step in and save himself. Again, the heart of understanding is to accept that time only happens once. Because of time travel PEOPLE can happen twice, but time only happens once. Longer that I intended, but you get the general idea. Steve/bboyminn From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 18:58:00 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:58:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CAD838.5050404@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132021 davenclaw wrote: >This still doesn't make sense. Let's think of it this way. Harry >and Hermione experience the same three hour block of time in three >different ways: > >- the original way, before time was changed >- the altered way >- as time-travelers > >Reading through it again, I realize that WE NEVER SEE THE ORIGINAL >EVENTS. We only see the events as they were changed, and the events >from the perspective of the time-travlers. > >Here is the problem: In order for Harry to end up in the hospital >and use the time-turner, he had to have been saved from the >Dementors. In order for him to have been saved from the Dementors, >he had to have gone back in time. But the moment when Dumbledore >tells Harry and Hermione to use the time-turner is a discrete >event. We only see this event from the perspective of a Harry and >Hermione whose memory now only reflects the altered past - thus >Harry now only remembers seeing his own Patronus, even though he >hasn't actually created it yet. > >I understand what everyone is saying about how once events are >changed, they are changed. But this ignores the basic fact that >there were events that took place prior to Harry and Hermione going >back in time - otherwise, what were they changing? > heather now: There was nothing to change, because it always happened that way. This is the hard part to wrap your brain around, I know. But the idea is, there was no *first time* and *second time*. Time only happens once, there can not be 2 different 'time-streams' in this theorem. I'll say it again, you have to step 'outside of time' and look at the whole picture of past, present, future, as one entity, rather than a one-way moving stream. It does create a paradox of sorts, but that's the way it works. Any time travel involves paradoxes, this is just one of them. There is no 'altered past', there is only one history, one time, that was always changed. Ever read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? You have to make reservations at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe (the end of time). But you don't have to make them before you go. You just go (forward in time), the reservations will be there already because you'll make them after you go back to your 'normal' time. It's a similar concept to what JKR is using -- things will be there even though from YOUR perspective, you haven't done them yet, but from the perspective of time in the greater scheme of things, they HAVE been done. davenclaw: > And remember >when Dumbledore says they can save two innocent lives? Clearly he >is speaking as though Buckbeak had been executed. But when we re- >read the events as they were written, we see that maybe the dropping >of the ax was when he threw it at a fence. The idea seems to be >that we are lead to believe he has been executed, but we are >actually seeing the altered events, which we don't understand until >we read that part. But I think it is JKR's intention that the FIRST >TIME we read through the events, we are seeing them as they were >altered. And yet, Dumbledore implies that Buckbeak had been >executed. This is a huge problem - if everyone's memory is of >events as they were altered, how can Harry remember his Patronus >while Dumbledore still thinks that Buckbeak has been executed? The >easy explanation is that he KNOWS that Buckbeak escaped - his only >memory is of the altered events - but he also knows that he escaped >BECAUSE of the actions of the kids, which he now has to instigate. > > heather now: I disagree that we are seeing an 'original' set of events where buckbeak was indeed executed. You say that DD seems to be implying that BB was executed, but he never comes out and says so directly. He does NOT think that BB has been executed because he wasn't -- but this isn't yet common knowledge. Now there is a legitimate question in here -- does DD know, at the time of the scheduled execution, what is going to happen? He seems to, in the way that he detains the fellows inside the shack long enough for H&H to get BB away. This implies a certain foreknowledge of events. There are many theories already out there about this. To sum up, either 1) DD somehow knew what he was going to do and acted thusly, or 2) DD saw what happened, and figured out what he must have done to effect it, and so does it (a logical paradox indeed, but there you go). In any case, *how* or *if* DD knew is a separate issue from whether or not there was an 'original' time that needed to be altered. DD's ambiguous, subtle comment to H&H is still totally consistent with a 1-time-only theory. davenclaw: >It's all quite confusing, but my overall point is that there is a >sequence of events that occurred before the moment when they went >back in time, which we never see, and no one in the story knows >anything about. > heather: Nobody knows about them, because they never happened. :) heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 19:18:22 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:18:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CADCFE.2030201@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132022 Steve wrote: >>From that point on, each set of characters travels through the events >and sees them from their own unique persepctive, and there in is the >second key to the events. We don't seem time happen twice, we see time >happen once from two different perspectives. Another way to look at it >is, we don't have two times, we have one time with two Harrys. > >Again, the heart of understanding is to accept that time only happens >once. Because of time travel PEOPLE can happen twice, but time only >happens once. > heather: I just thought of another example that might help understand it. Hermione's use of the time-turner for classes. We don't really see the effects of this spelled out clearly through the book... just hints, she appears and disappears at odd moments, but even that is very much in the background. It's mostly just the question of how she could be in '2 places at once'. From Hermione's perspective, she takes one class, uses the time-turner, then takes the other class. But from the perspective of Time, the linear time everyone else is experiencing, she was always in both classes. She didn't miss a class, then reset history and take it. She was always there. While she was taking her 'first' class, her future self was at the same moment sitting in the other class. I wonder how this sort of time travel affects aging, you know? If Hermione existed through, say, just 3 extra hours each week, over what, 40 school weeks? That's 120 hours, or 5 whole days. That's not much from a lifetime's experience, but did her body, her cells, etc, age 5 extra days in that year? In other words, do her cells live twice when she 'goes back', or do they live concurrently in the 2 different bodies at the same time, thus adding no age? Or another way to look at it... when she 'goes back', does her current self go back, or does she de-age, going backwards in time physically as well? I think the implication of the time-clock in the DoM would imply the latter, although you do apparently take along your knowledge of the intervening time, which implies the former... Whee! My brain is starting to get angry with me for making it try to comprehend all this lol... heather the buzzard From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 19:18:33 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:18:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CADD09.1060900@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132023 davenclaw wrote: >This still doesn't make sense. Let's think of it this way. Harry >and Hermione experience the same three hour block of time in three >different ways: > >- the original way, before time was changed >- the altered way >- as time-travelers > >Reading through it again, I realize that WE NEVER SEE THE ORIGINAL >EVENTS. We only see the events as they were changed, and the events >from the perspective of the time-travlers. > >Here is the problem: In order for Harry to end up in the hospital >and use the time-turner, he had to have been saved from the >Dementors. In order for him to have been saved from the Dementors, >he had to have gone back in time. But the moment when Dumbledore >tells Harry and Hermione to use the time-turner is a discrete >event. We only see this event from the perspective of a Harry and >Hermione whose memory now only reflects the altered past - thus >Harry now only remembers seeing his own Patronus, even though he >hasn't actually created it yet. > >I understand what everyone is saying about how once events are >changed, they are changed. But this ignores the basic fact that >there were events that took place prior to Harry and Hermione going >back in time - otherwise, what were they changing? > heather now: There was nothing to change, because it always happened that way. This is the hard part to wrap your brain around, I know. But the idea is, there was no *first time* and *second time*. Time only happens once, there can not be 2 different 'time-streams' in this theorem. I'll say it again, you have to step 'outside of time' and look at the whole picture of past, present, future, as one entity, rather than a one-way moving stream. It does create a paradox of sorts, but that's the way it works. Any time travel involves paradoxes, this is just one of them. There is no 'altered past', there is only one history, one time, that was always changed. Ever read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? You have to make reservations at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe (the end of time). But you don't have to make them before you go. You just go (forward in time), the reservations will be there already because you'll make them after you go back to your 'normal' time. It's a similar concept to what JKR is using -- things will be there even though from YOUR perspective, you haven't done them yet, but from the perspective of time in the greater scheme of things, they HAVE been done. davenclaw: > And remember >when Dumbledore says they can save two innocent lives? Clearly he >is speaking as though Buckbeak had been executed. But when we re- >read the events as they were written, we see that maybe the dropping >of the ax was when he threw it at a fence. The idea seems to be >that we are lead to believe he has been executed, but we are >actually seeing the altered events, which we don't understand until >we read that part. But I think it is JKR's intention that the FIRST >TIME we read through the events, we are seeing them as they were >altered. And yet, Dumbledore implies that Buckbeak had been >executed. This is a huge problem - if everyone's memory is of >events as they were altered, how can Harry remember his Patronus >while Dumbledore still thinks that Buckbeak has been executed? The >easy explanation is that he KNOWS that Buckbeak escaped - his only >memory is of the altered events - but he also knows that he escaped >BECAUSE of the actions of the kids, which he now has to instigate. > > heather now: I disagree that we are seeing an 'original' set of events where buckbeak was indeed executed. You say that DD seems to be implying that BB was executed, but he never comes out and says so directly. He does NOT think that BB has been executed because he wasn't -- but this isn't yet common knowledge. Now there is a legitimate question in here -- does DD know, at the time of the scheduled execution, what is going to happen? He seems to, in the way that he detains the fellows inside the shack long enough for H&H to get BB away. This implies a certain foreknowledge of events. There are many theories already out there about this. To sum up, either 1) DD somehow knew what he was going to do and acted thusly, or 2) DD saw what happened, and figured out what he must have done to effect it, and so does it (a logical paradox indeed, but there you go). In any case, *how* or *if* DD knew is a separate issue from whether or not there was an 'original' time that needed to be altered. DD's ambiguous, subtle comment to H&H is still totally consistent with a 1-time-only theory. davenclaw: >It's all quite confusing, but my overall point is that there is a >sequence of events that occurred before the moment when they went >back in time, which we never see, and no one in the story knows >anything about. > heather: Nobody knows about them, because they never happened. :) heather the buzzard From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:07:46 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:07:46 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Another way to look at it > is, we don't have two times, we have one time with two Harrys. My issue is not with TT-Harry and the other Harry co-existing. My problem is that the sequence of events that led up to the use of the time-turner are never shown. There are actually TWO times with two Harrys, but one of those times is replaced. > Again, linear time marches forward, at some point before Sirius's > death, Harry or the appropraite time traveler enters the time line. > That happens BEFORE Sirius's death which means someone is there to try > and prevent the death. Since Sirius died, either the time traveler > failed or the time traveler was never there. Ahhh, but if you take that point of view, then why use a time-turner in the first place? It is like saying, "if I were going to use a time-turner to change things, then I would have already done it, so I'm not going to bother trying, since I obviously didn't do it in the first place." Huh? At some point, the decision has to be made to go back in time - you have to realize that you have just experienced one sequence of events, and you have the opportunity to alter them, after which you will not even remember altered events as they originally occurred. It is like saying that Hermione wouldn't need to use the time turner, because she would already remember the second set of lessons. > There will always be a degree of paradox in time travel, we have to > accept that. But in simple terms, the fact that no time traveler saved > Sirius tells us that no one time traveled in an attempt to save him. I think this is just a matter of paradox that we have to accept, yes. And honestly, I think it is a valid question to ask - just as Dumbledore had to suggest the use of the time-turner in PoA, someone would have had to make the decision to go back and save Sirius. I'm guessing people don't generally walk around with time-turners. If they did, the whole HP series would be impossible to write! > Because of time travel PEOPLE can happen twice, but time only > happens once. Then what are people going back into? The past that they already created? What for, if they have already altered things as they intend to alter them? I think that there IS a second sequence of events which lead up to the decision to go back in time, but once events are changed, no one has any concept of events as they originally occurred. It is, in fact "lost." And so, when Dumbledore implies that Buckbeak had been executed, it must be that he knows that he was not executed, but also knows that the reason is because of the time travel that is about to take place. - davenclaw From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:33:52 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:33:52 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? In-Reply-To: <002a01c5816a$3fc5a0c0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > Susan for Harry? Maybe. Not much to go on. > > Jim Ferer > > Sherry now: > I would find Susan and Harry as out of the blue as some, such as > PhoenixGod2000 find Ginny's development as a character. In fact, with only > two books left in the series, it would seem strange to suddenly develop a > minor character enough to make her a romantic interest for the main > character. Actually, I think using romantic interest to slowly introduce a new girl to Harry would be the best way to do it, imo. It's certainly more plausible than just suddenly noticing a girl as distinctive as Luna for the first time ever during the fifth book. If we and Harry don't know much about a girl, the slow unfolding of their relationship would work as both a discovery for both the audience and Harry. I wouldn't consider susan bones anymore out of the blue than any other ship because there isn't any textual evidence that Harry likes *anyone* other than formerly liking cho. It's open season on the boy who lived. From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:32:55 2005 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:32:55 -0000 Subject: What is it with the Bones's? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132026 kitten... first of all... I'd like ot point out Luna, she was only in one book, and its not like she was in every single paragraph... or did something extremely remarkable, or that readers know everything there is to know about her... and yet she is one of the top girls to pair Harry with. Why couldn't jkr do that again with another minor character? And Susan at least has been mentioned before... unlike Luna who kinda came out of nowhere. Secondly... Harry hasn't shown any interest in any girl at all... so *any* girl he gets involved with, major or minor, will take some work. for it to be believable. Harry isn't going to open a letter from Ginny or Hermione or Luna during the first chapter of HbP and fall madly in love with her, or attend a dance and sees them all dressed up, and wonder why he has been so blind for so long... it will take some literary work for Harry to get involved with any of these three girls, other wise it will be a horrible written fanfic. I think JKR can take a character like Susan and develop her into a love interest... because any relationship Harry gets involved with, is going to have to be developed. kitten... > Sherry now: > I would find Susan and Harry as out of the blue as some, such as > PhoenixGod2000 find Ginny's development as a character. In fact, with only > two books left in the series, it would seem strange to suddenly develop a > minor character enough to make her a romantic interest for the main > character. As a passing interest, maybe, but like you, I don't see bringing in a relative newcomer at this stage. And I agree that anything that happens in this book is not the final word, if there ever is a final word. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:32:17 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:32:17 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP - Tactics and Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Jim Ferer (me): > "3) "There's an old saying in the Muggle military: > Never, ever, leave living [effective] enemies in your rear." In this > context it means Stunning them, tying them up with Incarcerous, > hitting them with Petrificus, and taking their wands." > Amiable Dorsai: > "Nah, do something that can't be reversed with a simple "Enervate" > or "Finite Incantatem"--reproducing the spell that accidentally > removed Harry's armbones in CoS would be about right. Do it to both > arms. > > Maybe their legs, too." > Jim replies: > > Ouch, you're ruthless. Good. We want these enemies neutralized and > out of the fight. The only reason Harry didn't do it is > inexperience. > bboyminn: Isn't this classic movie fair though? The good guys sneak into the enemy camp and knock out all the guards they meet along the way, never slitting their throats (because they are the good guys afterall), never taking or disabling the enemy's weapons (hand full of sand in the breach works good), never taking the time to tie the guards up, and of course, as it says in the script, the guards never wake up even if the basic infiltration of the camp takes hours. Actually, as a side note, they tell you in the Army never to pick up and use an enemies weapon because you might be mistaken for an enemy. Personally, I say 'screw that', if I need a gun, I'm taking one where ever I find it. We can attribute some of the mistakes to 'heat of the battle' and inexperience, but if they had a couple of unconscious DE's, would it have been that hard to snap their wands? Even if they are such very very good guys that they can't bring themselves to destroy another wizards wand, they could have gathered them up and stuck them in a desk drawer or behind a cabinet; anything to make the DE's job harder to do. > Jim continues: > > As far as the spare wand thing goes, we know that wizards can use a > wand not their own, even if the results aren't as good. What is to > stop Harry from having Mr. Olivander make him a ten inch holly wand > with a tail feather from Fawkes? Would that wand behave the same as > his original one? Is there a reason a wizard can't do this for a > spare? If this is possible, Harry and all the fighters on the good > side would be well advised to do this. > > Jim Ferer bboyminn: Ooooouuuu.... wand theory, I've got pages and pages and pages of essays on wand theory. Let's see if I can come up with a short version. My theory of 'The Wand Chooses the Wizard' is based in Magical Harmonics. When you are matched with a wand, you and that wand are 'vibrating' in a sympathetic magical harmony; at the same magical 'frequency'. The wandmakers job is to, as closely as possible, mate wand components and characteristics in a way that matches and re-enforces a common magical resonance, then match the completed wand to a wizard that shares the common magical resonance. Because of this, you can't make a wand 'to order'; you can't select a wand based on a collection of physical characteristics. No two pieces of wood are going to resonate at the same frequency even if they are from the same enchanted tree, not even if they are from the same branch of the same tree. Each piece of wood will have slightly different grain, slighlty different flexibility, slightly different density, etc..., and the same is true of the core. So, it's not a simply as 11 inches Holly with a Fawkes feather core. Because of the completely unique combination of components, to get the same magical resonances, Harry's new wand, as an illustration, might have to be longer or shorter, it may need to be made of a different wood. Although, I think in Harry's cases, a Fawkes feather core would be very likely. However, in general, to match the components to the wizard's unique magical harmonic, the new wand may even have a different core. So, in my not so humble opinion, that is the heart of the wandmakers art, to accurately match the components to their own unique magical resonance, then tune the physical characteristics to further refine and more precisely tune the wand to a sympathetic magical harmony. The more perfectly matched and tune the components are, the more powerful the wand, then when match to a wizard with the same precision, you have an extremely powerful magical combination. Now, I don't think there is one and only one wand for each wizard. You could travel anywhere in the world where there was a Master wandmaker and would be likely to find a wand that fit you. It's simply a matter of trying wands until you find one with a shared magical resonance. Of course, this doesn't deny a wizard's special fondness for his first wand. There now, aren't you glad you asked ;) . Steve/bboyminn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:42:01 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:42:01 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132028 davenclaw wrote: "- the original way, before time was changed - the altered way - as time-travelers" Del replies: Try seeing things this way: There is only one time-line, in which Buckbeak and Sirius are always saved and Harry and Hermione always Time-Turn. So what happens is that Harry and Hermione simply experience the SAME timeline from two different viewpoints. There is NOTHING to change, because events CANNOT be changed. Events happen only once, and they can NEVER be changed. This is why Harry can't just Time-Turn at the end of OoP to save Sirius. He can't do that, because the event "Sirius dies" cannot be changed. What CAN change, though, is the number of participants in an event. It took an additional pair of Harry and Hermione to make the events of PoA happen. Or so it seems!! For all we know, maybe there is yet another pair of Time-Turning Harry and Hermione, or *whoever else*, interfering with the events happening right now. But those people, if they are indeed there, can not *change* any event that happened in "their" past: they can only participate in them. And if those people are here, then they ARE here: if Harry decides to Time-Turn in 50 years for whatever reason, then he is already here, in the only timeline that has ever existed and will ever exist. davenclaw wrote: "Reading through it again, I realize that WE NEVER SEE THE ORIGINAL EVENTS. We only see the events as they were changed, and the events from the perspective of the time-travlers." Del replies: We never see the original events *because they don't exist*. There aren't any original and changed events: there is just what happens, what always happened. davenclaw wrote: "I understand what everyone is saying about how once events are changed, they are changed. But this ignores the basic fact that there were events that took place prior to Harry and Hermione going back in time - otherwise, what were they changing?" Del replies: Nothing :-) !! They are NOT going to *change* anything, they are going to PLAY THEIR PART, the part they always played. That's the whole beauty of Time Travel: TT!Harry and Hermione played their part BEFORE their present-time counterparts even knew they would Time Turn. davenclaw wrote: "And remember when Dumbledore says they can save two innocent lives? Clearly he is speaking as though Buckbeak had been executed." Del replies: I disagree completely. DD is speaking as someone who just understood what happened. DD knew all along that Buckbeak had escaped, because that's what happened, what he saw. But what he didn't know was HOW Buckbeak escaped. Then, when he sends Harry and Hermione back in time to save Sirius, he suddenly realises that this is probably the explanation. By the way, my personal explanations as to how DD knew to delay the executioners from leaving Hagrid's hut are quite simple: 1) he can see through walls, and so he simply saw Harry and Hermione freeing Buckbeak ; 2) he's a Legilimens, so maybe he simply "heard" Harry or Hermione thinking about how they had to hurry to free Buckbeak - I know I sometimes think very strongly of what I want someone to do, so maybe DD simply picked up Harry or Hermione's mental pleadings of "Don't come out now, just wait another minute" or something like that. Del From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:36:32 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:36:32 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CAD838.5050404@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > There was nothing to change, because it always happened that way. This > is the hard part to wrap your brain around, I know. But the idea is, > there was no *first time* and *second time*. Time only happens once, > there can not be 2 different 'time-streams' in this theorem. I'll say > it again, you have to step 'outside of time' and look at the whole > picture of past, present, future, as one entity, rather than a one- way > moving stream. > > It does create a paradox of sorts, but that's the way it works. Any > time travel involves paradoxes, this is just one of them. I think the reason that I disagree with what you are saying can be summarized with one question: How did Harry ever get the opportunity to use the time-turner to summon the Patronus to drive away the dementors? They were about to kill him. How did he survive in order to be able to save himself? There were a series of events which were altered when he went back in time. We never see them, and no one knows about them. I think you are confusing the fact that there is no memory of the original events with the idea that there never was a different set of events. That just cannot be the case. Harry couldn't save himself until he was given the opportunity to do so. People have been saying that there is one time with two Harrys. But until the moment in time occurred when they used the time-turner, there WAS NO TIME-TRAVELING HARRY in existence. So how did Harry survive the Dementors? And Dumbledore, somehow, knew that the events he had witnessed (Buckbeak's escape) were the result of time-travel. davenclaw. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 19:53:59 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:53:59 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132030 davenclaw wrote: "Then what are people going back into? The past that they already created? What for, if they have already altered things as they intend to alter them?" Del replies: Yes, they go back to the past that they helped create. And they do so because they HAVE to. That past was created BECAUSE they were in it twice, so they HAVE to go back. Take Hermione for example. She can go to Class A, and at the end of it she could ask someone in Class B if she was there (and hope that that person doesn't forcefully take her to see Madam Pomfrey :-P). That person will answer "yes", so Hermione will know that she Time-Turned correctly. But in order to have Time-Turned, she now needs to Time-Turn, or she will never have Time-Turned! That's why she was so upset when she missed her Charms lesson: because she couldn't change that event. She was NOT in Charms, and no amount of Time-Turning is going to change that. Because she was never in Charms that day, she will NEVER be in Charms that day. So one way to look at it is: The whole point of Time-Turning is to make the past happen the way it happened. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 20:08:01 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:08:01 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132031 davenclaw wrote: "I think the reason that I disagree with what you are saying can be summarized with one question: How did Harry ever get the opportunity to use the time-turner to summon the Patronus to drive away the dementors? They were about to kill him. How did he survive in order to be able to save himself?" Del replies: He survived because TT!Harry saved him. davenclaw wrote: "There were a series of events which were altered when he went back in time. We never see them, and no one knows about them. " Del replies: No no no :-) What was there but we didn't know about was TT!Harry and Hermione. davenclaw wrote: "I think you are confusing the fact that there is no memory of the original events with the idea that there never was a different set of events. That just cannot be the case. Harry couldn't save himself until he was given the opportunity to do so. " Del replies: You are making the past depend on the future, which is not logical. You are basically saying "Harry cannot be saved now because he must first decide to Time-Turn in the future". But that's not the way Time-Turning works. Harry is saved in the present because a second set of Harry and Hermione appeared out of nowhere in his PAST. The present depends on the past, now that makes sense. The question of WHY that second set appeared out of thin air is irrelevant to the present. All that matters is that it did, and that it can now influence the present. davenclaw wrote: "People have been saying that there is one time with two Harrys. But until the moment in time occurred when they used the time-turner, there WAS NO TIME-TRAVELING HARRY in existence." Del replies: YES THERE WAS :-) There was ALWAYS a Time-Turning Harry because Harry Time-Turned. The timeline was ALWAYS: a second set of Harry and Hermione appear out of thin air at 6, they save the "original" Harry sometime later, and that original Harry decides to Time-Turn at 9. It IS that way. The fact that Harry and Hermione TT at some point means that they appear at some point in the past. If they don't TT, they don't appear, but if they don't appear, they don't TT either. This means that there CANNOT be a timeline where the second set of Harry and Hermione isn't present in the past and yet Harry and Hermione decide to TT. The two events go together: they TT, they exist in the past. It's both or none. And obviously in PoA it's both :-) Del From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 20:13:51 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:13:51 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Another way to look at it is, we don't have two times, we have one > time with two Harrys. > Davenclaw: > > My issue is not with TT-Harry and the other Harry co-existing. My > problem is that the sequence of events that led up to the use of the > time-turner are never shown. There are actually TWO times with two > Harrys, but one of those times is replaced. bboyminn: It's as simple as this, as long as you are fixated on the idea that time happened twice, then you are trapped in an intolerable and unresolvable paradox; that which /is/, but that which /can not/ be. If you accept that time only happens once, while you still have a degree of paradox, which is inevitable, you at least have a tolerable paradox. So, simply choose the degree of frustration you want to live with. At 6:00pm Harry joined the timeline, and therefore he was always there ready and waiting to save himself. There is NO one time in which he doesn't save himself then a second time in which he does. There is ONE TIME with two Harrys; in the only one time that time occurred, the second Harry saved the first. We don't see TWO TIMES with or without two Harrys. > > bboyminn with an illustration: > > > > .... Since Sirius died, either the time traveler failed or the > > time traveler was never there. > davenclaw: > Ahhh, but if you take that point of view, then why use a time-turner > in the first place? > bboyminn: TT!Harry didn't alter history, he created it. That's the point of the Sirius illustration. History is written, Sirius went through the Veil, so either there were NO time travelers or they failed. History is history. The same applies to the events surrounding TT!Harry and TT!Hermione in PoA. JKR drops hints from both normal and TT! perspectives that indicate that nothing changed. In the second perspective, we simply see WHY the events of the first perspective occurred the way they did. Buckbeak was never killed, in the TT! perspective we simply find out how and why. In the original sequence of events, Harry was saved, from the TT! perseptive, we simply find our how he was saved. > ...edited... > > bboyminn: > > Because of time travel PEOPLE can happen twice, but time only > > happens once. > Davenclaw: > Then what are people going back into? The past that they already > created? What for, if they have already altered things as they > intend to alter them? > bboyminn: As I pointed out above, JKR is careful to lay VERY subtle clues that let us know that TT!Harry didn't alter history, he created it. The events went the way they went because TT!Harry and TT!Hermione were there to create that history. Again, time only happens once. > Davenclaw: > I think that there IS a second sequence of events which lead up to > the decision to go back in time, but once events are changed, no one > has any concept of events as they originally occurred. ... > > - davenclaw bboyminn: Hold to that belief if you want, but I'm here to tell you, it will bring you nothing but headaches and lots of them. It is a valid theory and concern of time travel, but it is the most miserable and frustrating of the lot. Like I said, simply choose the degree of frustration you want to live with. Steve/bboyminn From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 20:14:32 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:14:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CAEA28.5090608@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132033 davenclaw wrote: >I think the reason that I disagree with what you are saying can be >summarized with one question: How did Harry ever get the opportunity >to use the time-turner to summon the Patronus to drive away the >dementors? They were about to kill him. How did he survive in >order to be able to save himself? There were a series of events >which were altered when he went back in time. We never see them, >and no one knows about them. > >I think you are confusing the fact that there is no memory of the >original events with the idea that there never was a different set >of events. That just cannot be the case. Harry couldn't save >himself until he was given the opportunity to do so. > > heather: Actually, I'm not confusing anything. I understand fully what you're saying. Trust me, I've read and seen a whoooole lot of sci-fi and philosophical analyses of the intricacies and paradoxes of time-travel. I'm not sure if you're not understanding what I'm saying, or if I'm not stating it well, or if you're just choosing not to accept it. davenclaw: >People have been saying that there is one time with two Harrys. But >until the moment in time occurred when they used the time-turner, >there WAS NO TIME-TRAVELING HARRY in existence. So how did Harry >survive the Dementors? > > heather: It gets confusing when talking about time. You say "until the moment in time" when he used the time-turner, there was no time-turning Harry *yet*. This is presuming a particular view of the flow of time. One that is person-centered, in a manner of speaking, and one that is changeable. One that is only forward-looking, that starts in the past and heaves its way forward through time -- the 'future' does not happen until time 'gets there'. There is another way of looking at it. That the events of history are already laid out, almost in a physical sense, and that what we *perceive* as 'time' is merely our one-way travel along history. As I've said, you have to step outside of time and look at it from a perspective where you can see past, present, and future as One, as a solid entity, and not as a moving, growing thread. Like a book. The whole book exists, and you read it front to back. The words at the end of the book are already there, even if you haven't read them yet. They don't 'exist' yet in your mind. Your knowledge of the book grows (through time heh) as you start at the beginning and work your way through. Similarly, you can theorize a way that time works, in that it is already laid out, but we are ignorant of the future until we get there in our own travels, 'reading' history as it were. When we read a book, the words are not being spontaneously created as we read them. They were already there, waiting for us to encounter them. Similary, moments in time could be seen as not spontaneously arising, but as already existing, waiting for us. This of course, brings up the whole question of free will, predestination, fate, etc. I hold that they are all still quite valid. H&H choose to use the timeturner, therefore in what THEY perceive as the past they have already done it. They are now 'locked in' to a predestination, but it is a predestination that they chose. From the outside perspective, where there is no 'back and forth' to time, they were going to choose to do it, so the effect of it was always there. There is no 'future' and 'past' when you are outside time, it is all in front of you. So *the effect can precede the cause*. This makes no logical sense to us, we think "NO! There MUST have been a 'first time'". But this is only because we exist within the forward motion of time and are unable to comprehend the 'wholeness' of it. It definitely is a paradox, no question about it. But just because it's hard to fathom doesn't mean there MUST have been a 'first time'. It's entirely possible that time just DOES NOT WORK that way. Time is a mess, we can't begin to understand it. I mean, even the time-clock in the DoM... the egg/chick was moving backwards in its own time, while it was still going forwards in 'regular' time! There's of course the age-old classic paradox of being 'your own grandfather' thanks to time-travel. Go back in time, meet your grandmother, impregnate her, and your dad (or mom) is born. Impossible, right? Sure, if the view of time you are espousing is true. If you were not your own grandfather the 'first time', then when you boogie down with nana you're 'changing' history, and thus 'you' will be a different person, and the 'you' that existed to go back in time will never have existed, therefore will have never gone back, therefore will have never created the alter-you in the first place.. etc etc etc. The only way in which the scenario is possible, is if the time-travel is a 'closed loop'. You already were your own grandfather because you had already travelled back in time to create yourself. There is no initial impetus, the loop was always there. This too is paradoxical and seems impossible. But really, dimensions and quantum physics etc being what they are, it's just as possible as any other theory! This 'closed-loop' scenario, by which you COULD be your own ancestor, is the only way to view JKR's potterverse. It is not the ONLY way to view time travel, your view is of course a legitimate one and often used for great sci-fi; but this is the only way in which *this* fictional universe works. I really suggest you read the Hitchhiker's Guide. :) Oh, and the sequel, "Mostly Harmless". That has the Guide Mark 2, whose sole function is to 'reverse-engineer' events through time. You want something to happen? It will make it happen because it exists 'backwards' in time, and thus pre-causes events so that what you wanted will have already always happened in the first place. If you think H&H and the Time-Turner make your head hurt, you haven't experienced anything yet... heather the buzzard (I think I've said all I can say on this... if you're not convinced that this is the way to view the potterverse, even if you don't fully understand it, then there's nothing more I can say. Just read more sci-fi. I'm exhausted!) From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 20:28:06 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:28:06 -0000 Subject: HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > In linear time, at 5:59pm, Harry, Ron, and Hermione arrive in the > Entrance Hall and hide in the broom cupboard/closet. They hide > there waiting to make sure the Entrance Hall is clear. At 6:01pm, > they hear footsteps, those foot steps are TimeTravel!Harry and TT! > Hermione hiding in another cupboard/closet. That's the first clue > that JKR gives us that both the normal characters and the > TimeTraveling characters are existing at the same time. A clue > that is re-enforced when we view the scene a second time from TT! > Harry and TT!Hermione's perspective. > > From that point on, each set of characters travels through the > events and sees them from their own unique persepctive, and there > in is the second key to the events. We don't seem time happen > twice, we see time happen once from two different perspectives. > Another way to look at it is, we don't have two times, we have one > time with two Harrys. > > Again, the heart of understanding is to accept that time only > happens once. Because of time travel PEOPLE can happen twice, but > time only happens once. My head hurts. OK I've snipped some of what you said out and I do understand the point you're making and can accept that there is one linear timeline with H/Hr and TT-H/TT-Hr both moving through it at the same time but from a slightly different perspective. This does actually make sense to me. What I don't understand is how can TT-H have the memory of a patronus having been cast to save H/Hr & Sirius from the dementor attack that hasn't already happened yet in the linear time that they are both currently travelling through. To say nothing of the fact that TT-h/TT-Hr are constantly referring to "Now is where Snape appears, now is where Peter escapes (shall I jump in and grab him, no you can't alter anything) etc. TT-H/TT-Hr both have memories of the events as happened to H/Hr but these events were surely only happening the first time at the same time as they were being observed and anticipated. Sorry that was really hard to put into words so I hope you get what I mean! Karen From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 5 20:46:20 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:46:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CAF19C.8020707@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132035 Karen Barker wrote: >My head hurts. > > heather: I sympathise! :) Karen: >What I don't understand is how can TT-H have the >memory of a patronus having been cast to save H/Hr & Sirius from the >dementor attack that hasn't already happened yet in the linear time >that they are both currently travelling through. To say nothing of >the fact that TT-h/TT-Hr are constantly referring to "Now is where >Snape appears, now is where Peter escapes (shall I jump in and grab >him, no you can't alter anything) etc. TT-H/TT-Hr both have >memories of the events as happened to H/Hr but these events were >surely only happening the first time at the same time as they were >being observed and anticipated. > heather: I think I understand you. This is along the lines of what I was wondering in another post about whether Hermione 'aged' a few extra days during that year because of her use of the time-turner. In other words, when Hermione goes back to the 'second' class, is she an hour 'older' than her other self? Or do her cells/body/etc co-exist at the same 'age' as her other self? In other words (again heh) is her physical body determined by her own travels in time form her perspective only, or is it rather connected into Time alone? You're right, this is really hard to put into words lol... Anyway, the question is does she move forward in her OWN timeframe, and her own timeframe moves 'backwards' so that it overlaps big-T-Time twice? Or does she move backward within her OWN timeframe along with big-T-time. If it were the latter... if she were 'reset' when she used the time-turner to take her second class, then there would need to be a point where her two selves re-merged. Otherwise, she wouldn't remember both classes! Ie -- she takes charms, then time-turns, she is now back to an hour ago and hasn't yet taken charms so she doesn't remember it, and goes and takes runes. In the end, she only remembers runes. Her self that took charms 'erased' itself after the class (even though everyone remembers seeing her there). Having fun yet? Anyway, this would render the whole point of using the time-turner null and void. She MUST remember the events of her per-turning existence when she turns, or else she would not be using it. Also, if she were 'resetting' her own time-frame everytime she used it, she would not have been so TIRED all year. She was tired all year because she was living more hours in a day than other people were. Therefore, by the evidence Hermione presents that time-turning does NOT reset the memories of those who are being time-turned, it makes total sense that Harry remembers the Patronus, etc. I think you're seeing it as a person being 'split' into 2 people co-existing at the same time. Think of it perhaps, not as a split, but as a zig-zag. Time only happens once, and the same person lives through the same moments in time twice, one after the other from the person's individual time-frame perspective. Heh... this could even excuse Hermione's little white lie, "how could anyone possibly be in two places at once" (at least I know she says this in the movie, and I'm presuming there's at least something similar in the book... apologies if I'm suffering from movie contamination, even though I just finished reading that book a week ago lol). The workaround it is, it's not the 'same' Hermione in 2 places at the same time. It's 2 'different' Hermione's... one is an hour older than the other... Heehee... heather the buzzard From lhuntley at fandm.edu Tue Jul 5 20:50:19 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:50:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spare Wands WAS: Harry Killing in HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132036 Jim Ferer: > As far as the spare wand thing goes, we know that wizards can use a > wand not their own, even if the results aren't as good. What is to > stop Harry from having Mr. Olivander make him a ten inch holly wand > with a tail feather from Fawkes? Would that wand behave the same as > his original one? I'm don't think that it would be, but it doesn't matter. Harry could just go to Olivander's and get "chosen" by another wand, which is what he would do if his original wand was broken or irretrievably lost. Of course, the wand wouldn't necessarily be the "brother" to Voldemort's wand, but I think it would "work" better for Harry than any wand that was supposed to be a "duplicate" of his original wand. Wands are individuals, after all, and just because an individual might have a twin, doesn't mean that twin has the same personality. (*grins* If the metaphor is too vague to follow, I'm saying that a twin wand would not necessarily fit right with Harry.) > Is there a reason a wizard can't do this for a > spare? If this is possible, Harry and all the fighters on the good > side would be well advised to do this. You know, this just seems like common sense, doesn't it? Especially since the majority of wizards seem to be rendered completely useless (or, at least, much less effective) once they are relieved of their wands. Yet, we've never seen *anyone* with a spare wand. I wonder if having two wands is sort of taboo in WW culture -- kind of like having two lovers. You can get a new wand if your old one has been destroyed or lost, but you can't have two at the same time. *ponders* Anyone willing to take me up on this theory? Laura From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 20:53:43 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:53:43 -0000 Subject: MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER - THE ALCHEMIST THEORY IN TWO ACTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132037 Katherine Coble No offense, but how can you call your theory, which is what all of this is (and it's only one of your many theories...) a spoiler? tinglinger No offense taken. I was concerned that those posters who don't want to read about predictions and do want to find out what will happen for themselves should have the chance to skip the post if they choose to. Then again, there are people here who won't read it if they recognize my screen name ... which is also ok. Just as I am quite sure that when Mr. Lovegood is killed in HBP and Harry gets more involved with Luna that there will be people who will be upset that I have had the nerve to predict those events over a year ago.... From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 20:08:17 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:08:17 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132038 Del wrote: > The whole point of Time-Turning is to make the past happen the way it > happened. Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when they go back? They should already know if it happened. - davenclaw From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:00:42 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:00:42 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald (was Re: MAJOR ... ALCHEMIST THEORY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132039 aussie ------------- At last someone talks of Grindelwald (called "DWG" for Dark Wizard Grindelwald in the rest of this post). According to the Choc Frog card, DWG was DEFEATED, not "KILLED". Can we say the LV was DEFEATED, not KILLED, when Harry was a baby? tinglinger -------------- hmmmm i like your point. But if defeated was enough why isn't the defeat of Lord Voldemort mentioned on the card as well? aussie ------------- Could DWG have found a willing disciple in young Tom Riddle at the time he needed a new body most? DWG could have set the example for LV's body hopping (re: Quirrel and his re-appearance in GOF). It is no accident that JKR made DWG and Tom disappear the same year, or why would she mention the 1945 on the Card to start with. .. And if you hold that as a possibility, was DWG "body-jacked" by other Dark Wizards of old? (DD said Harry in Hospital in PS/SS "He [LV] is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed.") So how far back could it be? Longer than 665 years (Flamel's age)? Why not the original SALAZAR SLYTHERIN who "disappeared" 1000 years ago? tinglinger ---------------------- more great points... my only question is why, in the MOM confrontation, does DD call Voldemort Tom? This is also why I expect that little innocent Ginny is not what she appears to be either...... From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 20:56:19 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:56:19 -0000 Subject: HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132040 Karen Barker wrote: > What I don't understand is how can TT-H have the > memory of a patronus having been cast to save H/Hr & Sirius from the > dementor attack that hasn't already happened yet in the linear time > that they are both currently travelling through. Davenclaw: Per my theory: - Harry is saved in some manner we don't see. - TT-Harry conjures a patronus, but without all the business of trying to see his dad. He just does it to help himself. This alters things - instead of Harry being saved in some unknown way, he thinks he was saved by his father's Patronus. - Next time around, Harry remembers seeing the figure cast the Patronus, and thinks it was his dad. He then realizes it was him, and conjures it. This is the only version of events that we see. According to everyone else's theory, TT-Harry remembers the Patronus because that is the only sequence of events, period. > To say nothing of > the fact that TT-h/TT-Hr are constantly referring to "Now is where > Snape appears, now is where Peter escapes (shall I jump in and grab > him, no you can't alter anything) etc. TT-H/TT-Hr both have > memories of the events as happened to H/Hr but these events were > surely only happening the first time at the same time as they were > being observed and anticipated. Davenclaw: The TT-H&H have the memories of the events which they just experienced a few hours earlier, which they are now witnessing as second instances of H&H in the same time period. - davenclaw From tab1669 at elnet.com Tue Jul 5 20:58:10 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:58:10 -0000 Subject: Harry and anygirl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132041 kitten wrote- Susan at least has been mentioned before... unlike Luna who kinda came out of nowhere.Harry hasn't shown any interest in any girl at all... so *any* girl he gets involved with, major or minor, will take some work. for it to be believable. Harry isn't going to open a letter from Ginny or Hermione or Luna during the first chapter of HbP and fall madly in love with her, or attend a dance and sees them all dressed up, and wonder why he has been so blind for so long... it will take some literary work for Harry to get involved with any of these three girls, other wise it will be a horrible written fanfic. Flyingmonkey now- Cho came out of no where in the 3rd book. Harry played Qudditch agenst her. He saw her and thought she was very pretty. out of no where. Harry could start liking Ginny or anyone after not seeing them for a while. They could look diffent or act diffent then before. He is a growing boy. he is going to like girls. You cant really help who you start liking. flyingmonkey From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:09:48 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (madam_marozi) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:09:48 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132042 > If you accept that time only happens once, while you still have a > degree of paradox, which is inevitable, you at least have a tolerable > paradox. Marozi: Right, that paradox being basically one of cause and effect, which may be what is bothering davenclaw so much. What we see in POA is an effect (Harry saving himself) that occurs chronologically before its cause (Harry using the TT) and even looping on itself a little (Harry knowing he can do the Patronus because he saw himself do it). So this version of time travel preserves a single linear model of time at the expense of a linear one-way model of cause and effect. It's a bit brain-hurty but not inconceivable. From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jul 5 21:10:52 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:10:52 -0000 Subject: Pop Culture Time Travel/ was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CAF19C.8020707@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132043 Heather: > Anyway, the question is does she move forward in her OWN timeframe, and > her own timeframe moves 'backwards' so that it overlaps big-T-Time > twice? Or does she move backward within her OWN timeframe along with > big-T-time. > > If it were the latter... if she were 'reset' when she used the > time-turner to take her second class, then there would need to be a > point where her two selves re-merged. Otherwise, she wouldn't remember > both classes! Alisha: I will attempt to give you another cultural time-travel reference that (I hope) may help some people understand the concept. Watch the movie "Kate and Leopold". SPOILERS for Kate and Leopold In Kate and Leopold, Leopold travels forward in time, where he meets Kate and they fall in love. In the end, Leopold knows that he must travel back to his own time (where he is supposed to be announcing his choice of a bride). Kate's friend (Stewart?) has previously gone back in time and is the reason Leopold time-travelled in the first place. While Stewart was there, he took pictures, which he later has developed. When he looks at the pictures, he realizes that Kate is in the pictures. So, even though she hasn't gone back in time, she was already there. When she does travel back in time, it becomes obvious that both she and Leopold have all the memories of his time in the future (otherwise, he wouldn't choose her as his bride and the whole movie would be pointless). Even though none of that has "happened yet", they remember it. So in this version of time-travel (very similar to JKR's), time only happens once, but is experienced by people twice. And the time travellers retain all of their memories and experiences both times they experience time. Anyhow, I'm just trying to give another example to help you understand how JKR views time-travel (which is admittedly not the only way to look at it, but it is the only way that will make sense of the events in PoA). Alisha-attempting to wrap her mind around time-travel without resorting to the creation of a new verb-tense, ala Douglas Adams From alishak at spu.edu Tue Jul 5 21:16:38 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:16:38 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Del wrote: > > The whole point of Time-Turning is to make the past happen the way it > > happened. > > davenclaw: > Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when they > go back? They should already know if it happened. > Alisha: I think this particular warning was either a)an exaggeration to frighten people tempted to mess with time for fun or b)JKR not clearly thinking about the consequences of what she said. It cannot be dangerous for you to see your past self. As you pointed out, you already know it happened. What is dangerous (as Hermione explains to Harry) is if your past self sees you. They do not yet know that you have time traveled and would assume they'd gone mad or soemthing. It is also not possible for you to go back in time and kill your past self "by accident" or otherwise. If you killed your past self, you wouldn't exist to go back in time to kill yourself. Your past self, however, is perfectly capable of killing you (not knowing it was really their future self). Confusing? Yes, but not if you always take warnings of dire consequences in the wizarding world with a large grain of salt. -Alisha From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:17:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:17:42 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - A Good Nights Sleep In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > ...edited... > davenclaw wrote: > "People have been saying that there is one time with two Harrys. > But until the moment in time occurred when they used the > time-turner, there WAS NO TIME-TRAVELING HARRY in existence." > Del replies: > YES THERE WAS :-) There was ALWAYS a Time-Turning Harry because > Harry Time-Turned. > > The timeline was ALWAYS: a second set of Harry and Hermione appear > out of thin air at 6, they save the "original" Harry sometime later, > and that original Harry decides to Time-Turn at 9. It IS that way. > > ...edited... > > Del bboyminn: While Davenclaw's position is valid, he is expressing legitimate concerns about time travel in general, concerns that have been debated by science's top theoretical minds, it doesn't really apply to this case. As I said before JKR left clues telling us that TT!Harry was always there. To some extent Davenclaw is stuck because he is fixated on when Harry and Hermione left the time line at say 10:00pm. But what he is forgetting is that they arrived in the past at 6:00pm. Six pm occurs before 10pm, so what happens at 10pm or 9:59pm of 10:01pm is irrelevant. The critical factor is that TT!Harry arrived at 6:00pm which means he was there to witness and take part in the events that unfolded between 6pm and 10pm. What happens at 10pm only explains Harry's presence at 6pm. Start in the past, and let the clock tick forward. It's 5:59pm, normal Harry and Hermione with Ron hide in the broom cupboard listening intently. At 6:00pm TT!Harry and TT!Hemione arrive and normal Harry and Hermione HEAR THEM out in the entrance hall as they are scrambling into another closet to hide from themselves. At 6:01pm, normal Harry, Ron, and Hermione leave their closet and exit the Entrance Hall; TT!Harry and TT!Hemione HEAR THEM LEAVE. They heard each other, they don't understand it at the time, but from both perspectives they were aware of each other's presence IN TIME. Regardless of what time Harry chose to time travel history tells us that he arrive at 6:00pm on that night, and was there to witness and participate in the events as they unfolded. He didn't change history, he created it; he did not spawn a new alternate time line, he simply lived the original time line as his alternate time traveling self. Again, one time line and two Harrys. That's not to say your position is not valid in a general time travel discussion. For example, Hermione mentions that people have killed their past and future selves now THAT creates a monumental time paradox. That creates a situation in which another time line must be spawned, either that or the universe just explodes from the breach of continuity and we all cease to exist. New alternate time lines is a valid theory of time travel, but because both Harrys and Hermiones are unknowingly aware of their /other/ selves then they were always there in the one time in which these events occurred. I can't say that you are wrong, only that you will make yourself miserable holding fast to the two time line position. Take my advise, right or wrong, you'll sleep better at night if you see it my way. Steve/bboyminn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 5 21:26:01 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:26:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and the Buckbeak execution Message-ID: <1c9.2beaad93.2ffc54e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132046 In a message dated 7/2/2005 6:03:59 PM Central Standard Time, Elvishooked at hotmail.com writes: Book 3 (POA Bloomsbury Paperback p. 288 "Hermione's Secret"): Dumbledore: "......If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight........" My question (which, Im sure, has been asked before, sorry) is, why did he say that? Dumbledore was present at Hagrid's when the execution of Buckbeak was supposed to take place and he knew already that Buckbeak Simple. Dumbledore knew it but Harry and Hermione didn't.. . If he hadn't said anything to them then there is a chance that they wouldn't have rescued Buckbeak the 1st time. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amis917 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 21:14:23 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:14:23 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132047 Del wrote: The whole point of Time-Turning is to make the past happen the way it happened. davenclaw wrote: Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when they go back? They should already know if it happened. Amie now: The PAST self wouldn't know. Think about this. You're say, 25, and you travel back in time to when you're 7. You're 25 year old self is no longer in 2005, but in 1987. It's alot easier, I think, to think of time travel in larger chunks than smaller. So say, you're 25 and meet your 7 year old self. You know this happens, because at 25 - you can remember when you were 7. It's possible that at 7, you wouldn't know you were meeting yourself - or you could. Time travel is definetly confusing. I'm never read Hitchikers Guide as Heather suggested, but I have read The Time Traveler's Wife. It (as the title suggests) is about time travel, what people know, don't know, remember, can't remember. It would definetly help to make this clearer! :) -Amie From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:13:49 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:13:49 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > But those people, if they are indeed there, can not *change* any > event that happened in "their" past: they can only participate in > them. Then why is everyone so worried about your past-self seeing your TT-self when you go back in time? Wouldn't it be the case that if that were going to happen, your TT-self would already know it because it already happened? And yet people do worry about this. So I think there is canon evidence that this theory is incorrect. By the way, I don't have my book in front of me - does anyone know if, when Harry is in the hospital, before using the TT, anyone (Fudge, Snape, whoever) says anything which states or implies that Buckbeak had been executed? If so, that blows the whole "time can't be changed" theory out of the water. I'll have to check on this later... > You are making the past depend on the future, which is not logical. > You are basically saying "Harry cannot be saved now because he must > first decide to Time-Turn in the future". But that's not the way > Time-Turning works. I disagree. I think it is clear that the past depends on the future with time-travel. The past couldn't have occured as it did unless it resulted in Harry time-turning. Let's consider a crazy scenario. Hermione and Harry have time-turned, and they've gone into the Willow. TT-Harry kills Pettigrew before past-Harry knows what is going on with Sirius being innocent. Past-Harry thinks some dark magic is at work, so he tries to kill TT-Harry, but before he can, TT-Hermione kills past-Harry!!!! Now, tell me, what do you think would happen to TT-Harry? > Harry is saved in the present because a second set of Harry and > Hermione appeared out of nowhere in his PAST. The present depends on the past, now that makes sense. Yes, but they get there because of something they do in the future. You keep ignoring the use of the time turner as a discrete event in the timeline that occurs after the original series of events. Based on what everyone is saying, it is IMPOSSIBLE, you are telling me, that original-Harry could see TT-Harry do something, and then for TT-Harry, with the knowledge and understanding of what he saw TT- Harry do when he was still original-Harry, decide to do something different - he can only do what he already witnessed himself doing. Is that right? - davenclaw From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:38:12 2005 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:38:12 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald (was Re: MAJOR ... ALCHEMIST THEORY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132049 > aussie > ------------- > At last someone talks of Grindelwald (called "DWG" for Dark Wizard > Grindelwald in the rest of this post). > According to the Choc Frog card, DWG was DEFEATED, not "KILLED". > Can we say the LV was DEFEATED, not KILLED, when Harry was a baby? > > tinglinger > -------------- > hmmmm i like your point. But if defeated was enough why isn't the > defeat of Lord Voldemort mentioned on the card as well? now karenoc1 ----------------- Small point here, but the defeat of LV would not be mentioned on Dumbledore's card, because he didn't defeat him. Harry did, yes? From tania_schr at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 21:39:53 2005 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:39:53 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132050 Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything like that. Any thoughts? Tania From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:44:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:44:33 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132051 > >>Phoenixgod: > Draco picks every fight he gets in with Harry and then loses. > > >>Betsy Hp: > No he doesn't. Draco can't even win a quidditch match against > Harry. > >>Alla: > I think Phoenixgod meant that Draco always picks up fights with > Harry, Harry only defends himself. Are you saying it is not so? If > yes, could you give me an example when Harry was the one to pick > the fight with Draco? > Betsy Hp: When Draco and Harry go head to head in their quidditch matches *no one* has "picked a fight". It's an athletic contest, in which Draco is (for the most part) the underdog. The times the boys engage in fisticuffs Draco has usually been saying something he shouldn't, but rarely does he attempt to take Harry on physically. I'm not really giving Draco *too* much of an out here. One of the prime lessons learned in the school yard is when it's best to keep your mouth shut. But still, Draco is rarely the one who first comes out swinging. Generally that role is filled by Harry. And a few of his bigger friends. So it's hard to argue that Harry is "defending" himself, IMO. > >>Alla: > > He CHOOSES to pick up fights with Harry. Now, despite that fact I > could have feel for him, IF he picked those fights with Harry for > the RIGHT reasons. You know, if Draco was doing it to fight the > bad guy. But Draco does it for all the wrong reasons, IMO. His > lack of morals is what does it for me. > Now, you could argue that in Draco's mind he IS doing it for the > right reasons, but to me as I said before definitions of "right" > and "wrong" in Potterverse very clearly defined whether we look at > it with Harry's eyes or not. Betsy Hp: Oh, I agree that Draco is no blushing innocent. He's quite the little trash talker, and he generally reaps what he sows. (Sometimes a bit more than he sows, IMO.) The interesting thing to me, though, is that JKR deliberately gives Harry such huge advantages in his conflicts with Draco. Why? Why not have just Harry beat on Draco in OotP, instead of Harry and George? Or why not have just Harry and Hermione and Ron take down Draco and Crabbe and Goyle in the end of GoF? And then, at the end of OotP, when Draco is acting with a more noble purpose than usual (avenging his father) why does she have *twice* as many members of the DA turn Draco and Crabbe and Goyle into snail sludge? Why have Ernie *relish* seeing the look on Draco's mom's face when she sees what they've done to her son? It hardly helps Harry appear heroic. It certainly doesn't suggest Draco is pathetic (why can't Harry handle him on his own?). What is JKR trying to accomplish here? > >>Chris: > Ok. One popint of contention here. If memory serves me correctly: > In CoS, the match against the Slytherins, doesn't Malfoy have the > better broom. As a matter of fact, the whole Slytherin team has > Nimbus 2001s. Oh, and there is that little matter about Harry > catching the snitch with a broken arm, AND a rogue bludger chasing > him. Who was the underdog then? Yet, Harry still bested Malfoy. > Betsy Hp: I am *thrilled* you brought this up, Chris. Because it shows us that JKR *knows* how to write a proper sports story. Sure, Harry's proven himself to be a good flyer and Draco is untested. But JKR gives us the twist of Slytherin's new brooms. And Draco behaves with such unbecoming cockiness. Gryffindor *is* the underdog. Then she throws in Harry's broken arm. Harry is flying through a haze of *pain*. The grit! The agony! AND to top it all off, the field is against Harry; there's a rogue bludger out to get him. (At this point Draco is the suspected culprit for all the shenanigans occuring at Hogwarts, so there's some extra boo and hiss moments there). How could Harry *possibly* win?!? But with true stoic strength and heroic skill, Harry manages the impossible and pulls off a win right under Draco's nose. The crowd goes wild!! This is a perfect example of Harry being played as the underdog. And so when we leave Draco getting shouted at by his team captian our hearts are warm with the feeling that justice has been served. So why does JKR play the game so completely differently in PoA? Draco's cockiness is gone. He's notably pale before the game. Both teams seem evenly matched, there's cheating and penalty shots on both sides, and neither side appears to have an unfair advantage. Harry and Draco are both playing with the same level of concentration and intensity. JKR gives us an excellent feel of what all the job of Seeker involves by showing Harry calculating when to catch the snitch, bluffing and marking Draco, and then she does something that struck me as strange. With all the concentration Harry's been putting into his job, he suddenly leaves his post as Seeker and goes to help Angelina score. Why? Why does Harry suddenly decide to ignore his position? Draco spots the snitch and goes after it while Harry's playing the hero. In this instance, Draco is being the better Seeker. The *only* reason Harry is able to (barely) beat Draco to the snitch is the quality of broom he's riding. If their brooms had been equal, Draco would have won because he played a better game. And this would have been such an excellent opportunity to seal Draco's position as spoiled brat extraordinaire. Why not have his father send him a brand new firebolt of his own so he and Harry are at least on equal footing going into the match? Why have Harry beat Draco because *Harry* has the better toy? It was an odd direction to take, IMO. It leaves Draco in the position of underdog when he's *supposed* to be the spoiled little rich kid. And it's little niggling things like this that lead me to suspect that there's more to Draco's character than has currently met the eye. Betsy Hp, who's also thrilled she got to use the words fisticuffs and shenanigans all in the same post! From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 21:59:21 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:59:21 -0000 Subject: All-Knowing All-Seeing Dumbledore ...or Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132052 > ..edited headache giving time travel discussion... > > By the way, my personal explanations as to how DD knew to delay the > executioners from leaving Hagrid's hut are quite simple: 1) he can see > through walls, and so he simply saw Harry and Hermione freeing > Buckbeak ; 2) he's a Legilimens, so maybe he simply "heard" Harry or > Hermione thinking about how they had to hurry to free Buckbeak - I > know I sometimes think very strongly of what I want someone to do, so > maybe DD simply picked up Harry or Hermione's mental pleadings of > "Don't come out now, just wait another minute" or something like that. > > Del bboyminn: While I don't outright dispute your position, I think people jump to magical solutions a little too quickly sometimes (in general). I think Dumbledore is an old and wise, highly intelligent, and most important of all, EXTREMELY PRECEPTIVE man. We could go with some magical solution as to how Dumbledore knows he needs to delay the executioner, but it's just as likely that he is merely hyper-aware of his surrounding. He may have seen ill-defined movement, or a shadow, or a reflection that told him something was happening outside, and that it might be in his best interest to delay things. Lupin very easily and very accurately guessed that the Trio would visit Hagrid before the execution. Is it a stretch to think Dumbledore as well as everyone else, reach that same conclusion or at least had that same suspicion? I don't think so. So, Dumbledore seeing the movement of a shadow or a reflected glint of light, or hearing a subtle noise, might have been enough to make him suspect that the 'alway has his nose deep in trouble' Harry and friends might have been lurking about trying to help Hagrid and Buckbeak. Another incident that I analyze in the same way is Dumbledore's awareness of Harry and Ron's presence under the invisibility cloak in Hagrid's hut in CoS. True, we could speculate that Dumbledore can see through an invisibility cloak, or we could just say, that he is wise enough to pay attention to the world around him, rather than letting himself be distracted by petty pointless thoughts and worries. He could have detected Harry and Ron by scuff marks on the floor, by the subtle shifting of a foot, or the soft brush of invisibility cloth against the hut or against Harry or Ron. Perhaps, the creak of a floorboard; others may ignore it as the normal creaks of an old cabin. He may have detected the heat radiating from their bodies. Or maybe he just suspected Harry would likely come down to talk to Hagrid. Or he may have seen them moving across the ground; even if they were under the I-Clock, their feet would have still destrubed the grass, an observation that Harry himself made in PoA. This is also a possible way for Dumbledore to know that Harry was around Hagrid's before the execution. He many have seen unnatural movements of the grass as the Trio left Hagrid's for the Castle. So, I'm not discounting the possibility of magic, but at the same time, let's not discount the possibility that Dumbledore is smart and perceptive. Just a passing thought. Steve/bboyminn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 22:02:47 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:02:47 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132053 davenclaw wrote: "Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when they go back? They should already know if it happened. " Del replies: I'm not sure exactly what is bothering you? The Time-Turning people obviously know about their past selves. In PoA, TT!Harry and Hermione keep a close track on their past selves. Hermione keeps making remarks about how they can't go there because they'll be seen by themselves, or how they have to move because their past selves will be coming this way and see them. So she obviously knows where their past selves are and what they are doing. The problem is not the TT!people seeing their past selves. It's the other way around: the past selves seeing the TT!people. As Hermione explains to Harry, if past!Harry saw TT!Harry, he would most probably assume that some dark magic was at work, and he might attack TT!Harry before any explanation could be given. Hermione's insistent reminder is "we must not BE seen", not "we must not see". Big difference. Del From tinglinger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 22:12:36 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:12:36 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald (was Re: MAJOR ... ALCHEMIST THEORY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karenoc1" wrote: > > aussie > > ------------- > > At last someone talks of Grindelwald (called "DWG" for Dark Wizard > > Grindelwald in the rest of this post). > > According to the Choc Frog card, DWG was DEFEATED, not "KILLED". > > Can we say the LV was DEFEATED, not KILLED, when Harry was a baby? > > > > tinglinger > > -------------- > > hmmmm i like your point. But if defeated was enough why isn't the > > defeat of Lord Voldemort mentioned on the card as well? > > now karenoc1 > ----------------- > Small point here, but the defeat of LV would not be mentioned on > Dumbledore's card, because he didn't defeat him. Harry did, yes? tinglinger ------------------ You are correct --- hmmm I wonder where Harry's frog card is? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 22:26:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:26:13 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132055 > Betsy Hp: > When Draco and Harry go head to head in their quidditch matches *no > one* has "picked a fight". It's an athletic contest, in which Draco > is (for the most part) the underdog. Alla: I guess I was not primarily thinking about Quidditch , I was thinking about every other fight between them. Betsy Hp: But still, Draco is rarely > the one who first comes out swinging. Generally that role is filled > by Harry. And a few of his bigger friends. So it's hard to argue > that Harry is "defending" himself, IMO. Alla: We differ in evaluating the seriousness of what Draco says. To me it is as if he starts the fight physically, or almost something like this. If you don't want to say that Harry is defending himself, although I am still keen on this definition, how about responding to Draco's provocation? Betsy HP: > With all the concentration Harry's been putting into his job, he > suddenly leaves his post as Seeker and goes to help Angelina score. > Why? Why does Harry suddenly decide to ignore his position? Draco > spots the snitch and goes after it while Harry's playing the hero. > In this instance, Draco is being the better Seeker. The *only* > reason Harry is able to (barely) beat Draco to the snitch is the > quality of broom he's riding. If their brooms had been equal, Draco > would have won because he played a better game. Alla: I think I have an aswer, even though I am not sure if you find it to be to your satisfaction. :-) I know that book says that Harry wins because of the better broom , but I think the implied reason is not this one. Here again we are going back to honorable intentions. Harry left his position to help his team, while Draco was concerned only about glory for himself ( speculating here of course) I think JKR views Harry's intentions as more honorable here, therefore it does seem OK ( for me at least) to imply that Harry wins because his broom is better. Just my opinion , Alla From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 22:49:32 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:49:32 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP - Tactics and Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132056 Steve: "Isn't this classic movie fare though? The good guys sneak into the enemy camp and knock out all the guards they meet along the way, never slitting their throats (because they are the good guys afterall), never taking or disabling the enemy's weapons (hand full of sand in the breach works good)..." Yeah, it is, but I give JKR and Harry a pass on it because I don't expect JKR to know much about squad level infiltration tactics. It's just not their bag. If the good guys are too good to destroy a DE's wand, their priorities are screwed up. Not doing it could help give evil its victory and cause a good guy to get killed. Bad decision making. Steve again:"My theory of 'The Wand Chooses the Wizard' is based in Magical Harmonics. When you are matched with a wand, you and that wand are 'vibrating' in a sympathetic magical harmony; at the same magical 'frequency'. <> Your ideas and mine about wands are compatible. I've always imagined that wands focus and direct magical energy. The analogies, imperfect as they are, would be lenses for focusing and the sounding box on a guitar for resonant amplifying. Maybe the best comparison is a tuned antenna. Without a wand, the magic kind of dribbles out weakly all over instead of being cast in a focused way in the desired direction. Your ideas really ring true, so it would be necessary for Harry to be fitted out for a new wand all over again. BTW, I'd either break the enemy's wand or take it, not try to hide it. Too easy to Accio. Jim Ferer From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 22:59:28 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:59:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705225928.48741.qmail@web26309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132057 Betsy Hp: The interesting thing to me, though, is that JKR deliberately gives Harry such huge advantages in his conflicts with Draco. At the end of OotP, when Draco is acting with a more noble purpose than usual (avenging his father) why does she have *twice* as many members of the DA turn Draco and Crabbe and Goyle into snail sludge? What is JKR trying to accomplish here? Hells: I think she is showing how the tide is turning in the Wizarding World. In VoldWar I the Order members were outnumbered by 20-1, now the good guys have the odds in their favour. It gives me hope for this war and the generations that will follow. --------------------------------- How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 22:59:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:59:42 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > davenclaw wrote: > "Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when > they go back? They should already know if it happened. " > > Del replies: > ...edited... > > The problem is not the TT!people seeing their past selves. It's the > other way around: the past selves seeing the TT!people. As Hermione > explains to Harry, if past!Harry saw TT!Harry, he would most > probably assume that some dark magic was at work, and he might > attack TT!Harry before any explanation could be given. > > Hermione's insistent reminder is "we must not BE seen", not "we must > not see". Big difference. > > Del bboyminn: Del has certainly made the central point here, but it does go a tiny bit beyond that. It's not so much that 'we can't be seen', it's that we can't be seen by our UNKNOWING SELVES. The key is not about being seen, it's about the fact that there is a version of yourself, your normal self, that doesn't know what going on, and that creates dangers which Hermione clearly explains. But, when Hermione is time traveling to several classes at once, it doesn't matter if she sees herself because ALL VERSIONS of herself are KNOWING. They all know what's going on, so seeing each other is meaningless, so their is no danger. In her particular case, what is more important is that no student or teacher see more than one version of Hermione at a given time. If Seamus walks down the hall, turns a corner, and sees three Hermiones in casual conversation, I can safely say he is going to FREAK OUT. So, in that sense, the various version of Hermione shouldn't see each other but only because that increases the chances of someone seeing more that one of them at the same time. But there is no inherent time travel danger. In simpler terms, the danger is not in seeing yourself, but in the results and reactions caused by seeing yourself. Just one more small piece of the puzzle. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 23:03:27 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:03:27 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: > Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my > husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP > series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks > this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything > like that. Any thoughts? > > Tania Tania, we do kind of avoid getting on religion here because it could start something that could rip this board apart, but I think it's safe to say that the wizard world seems pretty much like the Muggle one. How many novels do you read that mention churchgoing? A few, but not most. The world at large (at least the Western world) is fairly secular. A lot more people sing Christmas carols than go to church. Since the wizard world brings in Muggle-borns with the Talent, those people bring with them the religious attitudes they grew up with, for good or ill. When the wizard world sealed itself off from the Muggle world, the world was much more openly religious than the modern world has become. What happened in the WW in the meantime? To compare fantastic literature at two extremes concerning religion, try Pullman's His Dark Materials series and the late Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 23:06:00 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:06:00 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132060 I think they do believe in God (in a christian way, IMO), but they could be afraid of how the muggle world feels about them, remember when Harry was writing an essay about how pointless witch burnig was, I bet that if wizards start hanging around muggles they would again be *burned*, maybe not literally, but at least sent to prison. Juli, who at the moment is at the moment is at the beach and took a moment of to write to HPFGU --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: > Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my > husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP > series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks > this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything > like that. Any thoughts? > > Tania From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 23:14:50 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:14:50 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132061 Wading in with two left feet and a physics degree... sorry! I shouldn't really be playing that card so early... Looking at the time turner bit of PoA, I have to say that Steve, Heather, Del etc are right. The model of time travel they describe is not only what JKR seems to be describing (with the clues like the steps/doorslam in the hallway and the Patronus sequence), but is also actually (logically) possible. It is exactly the sort of time- travel theory that Stephen Hawking and his contemporaries (although perhaps I should steer clear of temporal language) would consider possible. I'm afraid to say that 'the wheelchair guy' (as Homer Simpson named him) would not, however, consider your view to be even a candidate for a possible time travel scenario. Davenclaw said: > Let's think of it this way. Harry > and Hermione experience the same three hour block of time in three > different ways: > > - the original way, before time was changed > - the altered way > - as time-travelers > > Reading through it again, I realize that WE NEVER SEE THE ORIGINAL > EVENTS. We only see the events as they were changed, and the events > from the perspective of the time-travlers. JLV: I'm afraid this view is definitely logically impossible. If time went one way first, then Harry and Hermione went back and changed it, the new events would effectivly 'erase' the old ones, as you say, so Harry and Hermione could possibly *never* go back to change it in the first place. If you think everyone else's view is contradictory, you really have to look at your own first. Davenclaw > I understand what everyone is saying about how once events are > changed, they are changed. But this ignores the basic fact that > there were events that took place prior to Harry and Hermione going > back in time - otherwise, what were they changing? JLV: I really think you have misunderstood. Please re-read the replies above - I beg you! There is no `basic fact' about this at all. If you remove this preconception then it all makes sense. Not only that, you'll see how clever it all is! And I'm confident that many modern philosophers of time will heartily congratulate you when you do. I'd also like to point out that our best physical theory for the way space and time relate (General Relativity) actually gives different objects different timelines. What is happening now according to me will not be the same as what is happening now according to the person who is now-according-to-me in their car driving away. I could technically loop `back in time' according to, say, my house without contradicting any physical or logical laws. I *could* be in two places at once, but it just depends on who you ask. And if you think you can show that's impossible... well... I suggest you publish your paper in a Physics journal. Who needs science fiction? Just pick up a book on the philosophy of time. Of course, usual disclaimer, JMO ;-) JLV xx From tifflblack at earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 22:37:02 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:37:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132062 Tania: Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything like that. Any thoughts? Tiffany: I think maybe some wizards do believe in God. There are several ghosts on nuns and of course the Hufflepuff's Fat Friar. Seems like there is a picture of some monks near the divination classroom as well. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 23:43:33 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:43:33 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132063 > Betsy Hp: > When Draco and Harry go head to head in their quidditch matches *no > one* has "picked a fight". It's an athletic contest, in which Draco > is (for the most part) the underdog. Untrue. IIRC, the Slytherin Quiddich team is known for dirty, underhanded, and overly vicious tactics. The Gryffindors are handicapped by their honor, with Harry's broom and skills making up the deficit. Neither boy is the underdog in Quiddich. Harry has his talent and broom and Draco has his cheating, rules breaking team. In any sports movie ever made, the Gryffindors would be the underdog. > The times the boys engage in fisticuffs Draco has usually been > saying something he shouldn't, but rarely does he attempt to take > Harry on physically. Wasn't he about to shoot Harry in the back when Moody turns him into a ferret? > Betsy Hp: > Oh, I agree that Draco is no blushing innocent. He's quite the > little trash talker, and he generally reaps what he sows. (Sometimes > a bit more than he sows, IMO.) The interesting thing to me, though, > is that JKR deliberately gives Harry such huge advantages in his > conflicts with Draco. Why? Why not have just Harry beat on Draco > in OotP, instead of Harry and George? Or why not have just Harry > and Hermione and Ron take down Draco and Crabbe and Goyle in the end > of GoF? Because I think what Rowling is trying to show is Draco's pathetically poor judgement more than anything else. I think its foreshadowing many other, much more serious decisons that Draco is going to make poorly. > And then, at the end of OotP, when Draco is acting with a more noble > purpose than usual (avenging his father) why does she have *twice* > as many members of the DA turn Draco and Crabbe and Goyle into snail > sludge? Why have Ernie *relish* seeing the look on Draco's mom's > face when she sees what they've done to her son? I would take issue with Draco acting with a noble purpose. His father is an evil terrorist, there is nothing noble in defending him or what passes for Malfoy honor. And the reason why so many DA members leapt to Harry's defense was to show just how high a regard and level of personal loyalty Harry commanded. Ernie relishes the look on Narcissa's face because everyone likes it when bad things happen to bad people. Phoenixgod2000 From jonathan at techtobiz.com Tue Jul 5 23:02:57 2005 From: jonathan at techtobiz.com (Jonathan House) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:02:57 -0600 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <1120597481.5215.86104.m30@yahoogroups.com> References: <1120597481.5215.86104.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42CB11A1.4020704@techtobiz.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132064 Hehe - it's interesting to see that the whole PoA time travel issue is still showing up time and time again (pun intended). I think that Mrs. Rowling learned a lesson about using time travel as a plot device while writing PoA - it's a pain in the rear. Typically when writing sci-fi or fantasy stories about time travel the "rules" must be extremely limited, or the story quickly becomes ridiculous. If you don't have these rules it makes life a lot harder for the author. For instance, when Hermione accidentally fell asleep and missed Charms, there is nothing in the "rules" that we know about that would keep her from going back and making it to the class (we know that the turner can function at least 3 hours in the past, so no problem with how long had expired). I've read through the discussions between Heather, Davenclaw and Bboyminn (and enjoyed them as well). Pardon me for jumping in here, but I can't resist adding my $.02 worth. Davenclaw states that there is a sequence of events that occurred that were subsequently "erased" when Harry and Hermione used the time turner. Heather (and BBoyminn?) disagree with this, stating that there was only one set of events that occurred, and that Harry/Hermione were duplicated in that set of events. Since we don't know all of the "rules" of how time travel works in the HP universe, there is no right answer to this question, but based on different theories in our boring universe, you may be both right. Let me explain: Theory 1 - Re-written history: Early time-travel theories generally ran along the lines of "History happened a certain way, time traveler comes along and changes things, world changes to follow suit, only the time-traveler remembers the old history". Interestingly enough, this is where some of the most gnarly paradoxes come from, including the old "killing your grandfather" paradox (Heinlein and Bradbury have good stories along these lines). Later theories along this line generally follow the "multiverse" theory, which (strictly speaking) isn't time travel at all, but rather universe hopping. Example: History happens a certain way, time traveler wants to change it, but when they time travel they are really appearing in a parallel universe exactly like the original, except that the time traveler is now present. Original universe maintains it's history, and the new universe has always had the time traveler affecting events. If this theory is in operation in the HP universe, Davenclaw is right, and there is either a version of the events that occurred that has subsequently been "re-written", or there are two parallel universes - one with Buckbeak and Sirius dead, the other with them alive. Theory 2 - Timeline jumping: Timeline jumping is a theory about time travel that states that there are two reference frames - personal time and "world time". In this theory, world time is consistent and always flows the same. Time travelers have the ability to "leave" the world time and jump to different points in the world time line, in essence duplicating themselves (unless they have traveled to before their birth, or after their death). Since the world time line is never altered, there is always only one version of the events that occurred within it. If this theory is in operation, that means that Harry/Hermione were always duplicated between 6 and 12 on that day, and there was no other set of events that had occurred. Although the book does hint towards theory 2 (in my humble opinion), there is nothing there that says that theory 1 isn't valid.JKR wrote the duplicated time sequence in such a way that you couldn't tell what had occurred to Buckbeak (which would have given us the major clue) the first time through. Again, I think that JKR learned a lesson about writing time travel here. Unless it is severely limited, it has the potential to blow huge holes in the plot. Here are a few examples: In PS/SS, Dumbledore could have picked up a time turner while at the Ministry and spun himself back to the point before Harry, Ron and Hermione met up with Fluffy. In CoS anyone could have grabbed a TT and turned time back to prevent each attack, or find out where the basilisk was coming from (or even kill it). We've seen the PoA issues. In GoF, Dumbledore could have kept Harry and Cedric from touching the cup (or kept Barty from casting the portkey spell). Harry could have easily saved Sirius in OOtP by grabbling a turner, throwing his cloak on (so that nobody saw him, neatly avoiding the "two Harry" issue), and blocking the veil when Sirius was blasted into it (or blasting Bellatrix before she got Sirius). Ultimately, I think we have to just enjoy the story that JKR wove in PoA without trying too hard to reconcile what happened there with how our universe works. Jonathan From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 23:51:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:51:26 -0000 Subject: HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > > My head hurts. > > ... What I don't understand is how can TT-H have the memory of a > patronus having been cast to save H/Hr & Sirius from the > dementor attack that hasn't already happened yet in the linear time > that they are both currently travelling through. ... TT-H/TT-Hr both > have memories of the events as happened to H/Hr but these events > were surely only happening the first time at the same time as they > were being observed and anticipated. > > Sorry that was really hard to put into words so I hope you get what > I mean! > > Karen bboyminn: Heather gave an excellent explanation in response to your post. I'll touch on what she said, but try not to dwell. First, we MUST accept that this CAN NOT be resolved, because even with the best theories and explanations, time travel creates unresolvable paradoxes. Accept that there will never be a perfect understanding of events, accept that all questions never can and never will be resolved in our lifetime. What we are dealing with is preception and perspective. There is a Universal Time Line, the universal preception of the passing of time. We call it history, as each minute (tiny, not 60 seconds) slice of present slips into the past, it inches the Universal Time Line forward. This is the standard for time, this is the beat that every natural being in the universe marches too. However, there are interlopers in time, there are people who step out side this universal PRECEPTION of time; time travelers, for example. But before I get into that, let's remember that the time traveler create a new personal relativistic PERCEPTION of time, but do not alter the Universal preception of time. As Heather points out, while the Universal Time Line advances one hour while Hermione attends three classes simultaneously, Hermione herself, preceives three linear/consecutive hours of time. Three Hermione's experience a single hour in time (3Hermy X 1Hr = 3 Hours) in the Universal Time Line, in Hermione's personal time preception, Hermione experiences three consecutive hours (1Hermy X 3hrs = 3 Hours). Regardless of how you add it up, Hermione is three hours older, while those of us living in the Universal Time Line are merely one hour older. Depending on how you calculated it, some of us have estimated that Hermione is 30 days older as a result of her time travels. Remember, nothing in life truly comes without a price. How can TT!Harry know what happened to normal Harry? Because to Harry's Time Preception, he has already lived that time. He experienced 6 consecutive hours while the Universal Time Line experience only 3 consecutive hours. Harry entered the past FROM THE FUTURE and in the future his future self has knowledge of the events he has already lived. Again, this only creates the misery of two time lines, if you focus on when he left the time line rather than when he entered it. Harry arrived at 6pm with full knowledge of the life he had lived up to 9pm later that evening. So, future TT!Harry has 9pm knowledge, but that knowledge and experience, which we call history, was shaped and even created by his arrival in the Universal Time Line at 6pm. He knows what he knows because he was there to help create that knowledge. Remember, you will NEVER resolve this completely, NEVER. There will always be some part of it that doesn't work or doesn't make sense, because that is the nasty nature of time travel. We who support the single time line theory, are not promoting the perfect solution, only the least painful one. Not pain-free, just the least painful. Nothing like a little time travel to give you a good headache. steve/bboyminn From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jul 5 23:18:25 2005 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (James Bennett) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:18:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507052318.j65NIQGL003335@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132066 Tania wrote: > This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks this > because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or > anything like that. Any thoughts? jlnbtr wrote: > I think they do believe in God (in a christian way, IMO), but they > could be afraid of how the muggle world feels about them, remember > when Harry was writing an essay about how pointless witch burning > was, I bet that if wizards start hanging around muggles they would > again be *burned*, maybe not literally, but at least sent to > prison. James: I think JKR leads us down the path to let us make up out own mind while helping us lean a little bit on the side that they do. With books like this and many churches saying that HP is bad I think she took the middle road and didn't take sides and left it to us the reads to come to our own conclusion. James From clh1403 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 5 23:12:52 2005 From: clh1403 at yahoo.com (Courtnie Harber) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050705231252.77488.qmail@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132067 It would depend on the wizard you ask. It seems that with as closely as these two worlds live that some point religions would mix. I'm pretty sure there are Christian wizards, Jewish wizards, and such. Me personally, and this is my own bias theory, that Paganism has the majority in the wizarding world and Christians are the minority. Grey_Wolfe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Wed Jul 6 00:24:23 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:24:23 -0000 Subject: All-Knowing All-Seeing Dumbledore ...or Not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > While I don't outright dispute your position, I think people jump to > magical solutions a little too quickly sometimes (in general). > > I think Dumbledore is an old and wise, highly intelligent, and most > important of all, EXTREMELY PRECEPTIVE man. > (snip) > > So, I'm not discounting the possibility of magic, but at the same > time, let's not discount the possibility that Dumbledore is smart and > perceptive. > > Just a passing thought. > > Steve/bboyminn Claire's response: As usual, Steve, you give a very pithy analysis. I agree with you, although I think Dumbledore is more than smart and perceptive. Ultra perceptive maybe would be better terminology. He just knows too much and steers the trio in directions that allow them to gain the knowledge necessary for the task(s) at hand AT THE TIME. I've always thought of him more of a guardian angel...flawed, yes, but still a wise overseer of all things. I'd be interested to know if this guardianship extends to other students -- Neville, for instance. It can't be proved in canon, yet, because the stories focus on HRH, but I think that may affect others in Harry's circle, expecially the DA. Claire From ctcasares at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 00:29:47 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:29:47 -0000 Subject: HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote:> > OK I've snipped some of what you said out and I do understand the > point you're making and can accept that there is one linear timeline > with H/Hr and TT-H/TT-Hr both moving through it at the same time but > from a slightly different perspective. This does actually make > sense to me. What I don't understand is how can TT-H have the > memory of a patronus having been cast to save H/Hr & Sirius from the > dementor attack that hasn't already happened yet in the linear time > that they are both currently travelling through. The problem is that Star Trek and _Back to the Future_ have written entertaining stories that are COMPLETELY illogical. Star Trek especially has dozens of stories where things happen, then characters go back and change the past, or where characters loop and loop till they "get it right". -Back to the Future- even violates its own rules of time-travel and past-changing. They are entertaining stories, but logically flawed. PoA is logically sound, as far as the time travel goes. The is one time line, but there is NEVER a "first time through" for anyone BUT Harry and Hermione. A future version of Harry always casts the Patronus. At the same time, Harry thinks he sees his father casting the Patronus, and so is not boggled at seeing himself. There was no "first time" where no Patronus was cast or where something else saved Harry, Sirius, and Hemione because the TIME happened once. Time doesn't change: Harry and Hermione travel *through* it. The only 'canonical' excuse for a changable past is when Hermione quotes McGonnigal as saying people have travelled to the past and killed their earlier selves, which is a logical fallacy. But what exactly did McGonnigal say? WE DON'T KNOW. We have Hermione's hearsay, and while generally that's good enough for me, I think JKR makes a big point in PoA that Hermione CANNOT always be trusted. She's smart, the cleverest witch of her generation, but she's fallable. Harry explains how he knew he could cast the Patronus: because he realized he had NOT seen his *father*, he had seen *himself* time travelling. Being the older version of Harry, having experienced the past once, he understood he was there twice. But after explaining it, he asks Hermione if she understands, and *she doesn't!* Hermione is still confused--despite the fact she lived through it with Harry and despite the fact she was time travelling all year. She followed the rules strictly, but didn't understand them instinctually-- just as with flying a broom. Harry has to study, but for some things, he is just talented. He's a natural flyer. He has a knack for DADA. He grasped time travel, even without knowing all the 'rules'. I think Hermione's fallibilty may come up in the future, and her tendency to be too literal may end up causing as much harm as help. Her intentions will be pure, but in the final battle, I believe Harry's instincts will be much more important than Hermione's book- learning. (and I'm a big supporter of book-learning!) From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 00:30:16 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:30:16 -0000 Subject: Mild TBAY, trying to answer JK's Edinburgh questions. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132070 In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think about: "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't Voldemort die?" Not, "Why did Harry live?" but, "Why didn't Voldemort die?" The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn't he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die? but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy." (For the full interview go to http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrebf and select the Edinburgh interview at the bottom of the page.) So that's what I've been thinking about. Let's start with Dumbledore. I think that what Snape told DD that convinced him to trust him, was what experiments LV had done to try and achieve immortality. Proof that the DEs know this is in GoF p562 when LV addresses the DEs in the graveyard "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" DD also had the prophecy, he knew that either Harry or Neville was the ONLY one who could conquer LV. So with these two bits of information, he set about working out how to finally conquer LV. I suspect that DD has been putting into action a plan he hatched even BEFORE LV tried to kill Harry. So he must have sat down with the Potters and the Longbottoms and devised something which would be a failsafe to keep both Harry and Neville alive in the event that LV tried to kill them. Further DD has been enacting that plan throughout the course of the 7 books. So part of the answer to why DD didn't try to kill LV is that he knows that whatever he does will not conquer LV because of the prophecy. Only Harry can conquer LV. I also think that DD *behaves as though* he knows that LV cannot kill Harry simply by using the AK curse, probably because the combination of the prophecy, the information Snape gave him and the spell he devised with Lily tells him so. LV doesn't know this and is still trying to use this curse to kill Harry. Maybe this could partly explain why DD keeps seeming to allow/encourage Harry to get into life threatening situations with LV. (The Mirror of Erised etc) Another reason why I think DD 'wants' Harry to keep on meeting LV is because I think he wants Harry to really know what/who LV is. My reason for thinking this is tied up with the next bit of the puzzle - what did LV do to ensure that he survived? Don't expect chapter and verse here, I need some help from you guys! But I do have some ideas based on a theme, even if I can't explain exactly how it works. The theme is having others inside us in some way. There are two ways in which this has been illustrated in the books - posession (not nice and disempowering to the point of death - Quirrel and the animals LV has possessed) and people living on in others even after they have died (nice, and empowering). DD says to Harry in PoA p312 "You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father IS ALIVE IN YOU, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him." (My capitals) Now, my specualtion is that LV survived because he spread himself about a bit. In other words, some part of himself has been transferred to others - and I don't mean just Harry. I think he has transferred some of himself into his DEs which is why they know what experiments he did. In GoF p566 he says, "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I was ripped from my body, I was less that spirit, less than the meanest ghost ... but I was still alive. What I was, even I do not know ..." I speculate that he survived because he was still alive in others in some way and they were still alive, thus keeping him alive. The attempt to kill Harry with the AK curse took away his body and his powers, but it seems that life is a combination of these two things and something 'less than spirit'. I'm not someone who speculates much beyond what can be closely verified by cannon, so I think this is about as far as I can go as to the mechanism. But, there are inferences that can be taken from this. We know that Harry has some of LVs powers in himself. We also know, that LV has some of Harry's blood in him, which allowed LV to touch Harry. News of which caused the gleam in DDs eye (GoF p604) So, in some way, they are alive in each other. This opens up the possibility, that in order for one of them to destroy the other one, they have to destroy the part of themselves that is the other one. Hence, the reason I think DD wants Harry to know LV, is because in order to destroy LV, Harry has to destroy that part of himself that is LV, so he has to know what that looks/feels like and be willing to destroy it within himself. The prophecy says, "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." I have real problems here. The major one being - that both of them are alive and survivng at the moment! So, I'm wondering if the second phrase kicks in only AFTER they have tried to kill each other. i.e. If Harry "kills" LV but doesn't kill the part of LV that is in himself, then LV has survived. But the prophecy says that in the case I've just cited, Harry would not be able to live either. btw - What the hell does JKR mean by the word live? Harry would only be able to live (whatever that means) if he destroys every part of LV, which means the bits of LV stored in himself and other people. If LV also exists within some of the DEs, then those parts of him also have to be destroyed at the same time. So DDs plan must extend to them as well. (This could be a reason why Snape wants Harry alive. Because, maybe, when Harry destroys LV according to the prophecy, he will also destroy the part of LV in Snape and free him.) OK, how this is going to happen is beyond where I'm willing or able to speculate. But, I do think that whatever DD and Lily did is the key to the puzzle. And I keep in the back of my mind the notion that Lily exists in Harry - probably in his eyes, and that when LV used Harry's blood, some of Lily got transferred to LV too. But, hey, that makes things awfully complicated and I don't think the answer is going to be incredibly complicated. Saraquel Having got a lot off her chest, but probably not broken any new ground. From ctcasares at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 00:42:55 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:42:55 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CB11A1.4020704@techtobiz.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jonathan House wrote: > Although the book does hint towards theory 2 (in my humble opinion), > there is nothing there that says that theory 1 isn't valid.JKR wrote the > duplicated time sequence in such a way that you couldn't tell what had > occurred to Buckbeak (which would have given us the major clue) the > first time through. > > Again, I think that JKR learned a lesson about writing time travel here. > Unless it is severely limited, it has the potential to blow huge holes > in the plot. Here are a few examples: > > In PS/SS, Dumbledore could have picked up a time turner while at the > Ministry and spun himself back to the point before Harry, Ron and > Hermione met up with Fluffy. > Except JKR *does* give us a clue to how time-travel works in her universe, and she directly points to one unaltered timeline where time turners *travel* in time. Hermione sleeps through Charms! When Ron and Harry ask where she was, she has a fit. Now, if the past were changable, why couldn't she just time-turn her way back to Charms? If there is an "original" timeline that is altered when she timeturns, why can't she timeturn her way back to Charms? If the Star Trek timeline--an original that is altered--holds true, then Hermione should *expect* Harry and Ron to experience a Charms class without her before she TTed back to it. But that's not what happens. Hermione can't go to Charms b/c she WASN'T in Charms. That time has past without her being there. She's not going to be able to get there, no matter what she tries, b/c a future version of herself wasn't there. It's not as good as having Fudge grumble about Buckbeak not being executed in the infirmary before they go back and save Buckbeak, but it is a clue that in JKR's world, time happens once. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 6 00:51:18 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:51:18 -0000 Subject: Spare Wands WAS: Harry Killing in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132072 Jim: > > Is there a reason a wizard can't do this for a > > spare? Laura: > You know, this just seems like common sense, doesn't it? I > wonder if having two wands is sort of taboo in WW culture -- kind of > like having two lovers. You can get a new wand if your old one has > been destroyed or lost, but you can't have two at the same time. > *ponders* Anyone willing to take me up on this theory? SSSusan: This is a fascinating thought. I wonder WHY it would be taboo? But you're both right that it would make *sense* to have a spare, so what would be preventing people from having one? We didn't hear Harry say how much it cost for his wand, did we? It may be a fair bit of change, as we know Ron never reported his broken wand to him mom, in spite of being told by his teacher(s?) that it needed to be replaced. Now, that could be because he didn't want to face another Molly Howler, but it could also be because he knows how much it costs for a new wand. Still... anyone who's ever worn glasses (well, anyone who has worn THICK glasses) will vouch for the fact that it's VERY good -- and very common -- to have a spare. I'd love to hear anybody else's thoughts on why people don't seem to have spares and why having one might be taboo. Siriusly Snapey Susan From smilingator81 at aol.com Wed Jul 6 01:07:10 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:07:10 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CB11A1.4020704@techtobiz.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132073 Jonathan wrote: Since we don't know all of the "rules" of how time travel works in the HP universe, there is no right answer to this question, but based on different theories in our boring universe, you may be both right. Let me explain: > Theory 1 - Re-written history: Early time-travel theories generally ran along the lines of "History happened a certain way, time traveler comes along and changes things, world changes to follow suit, only the time-traveler remembers the old history". Theory 2 - Timeline jumping: Timeline jumping is a theory about time travel that states that there are two reference frames - personal time and "world time". In this theory, world time is consistent and always flows the same. Time travelers have the ability to "leave" the world time and jump to different points in the world time line, in essence duplicating themselves (unless they have traveled to before their birth, or after their death). Since the world time line is never altered, there is always only one version of the events that occurred within it. smilingator (now): I just want to say that PoA is my favorite book of the series so far because of the time travelling element. After reading the recent discourse on the boards (and getting a headache from it too... hehe), I've decided to jump into the conversation. First of all, I think that all parties (Dave, Steve, Heather, Jonathan, etc.) have made good points and I understand what issues everyone was trying to address and make the other parties understand. But as Jonathan said, since JKR didn't lay down any clear guidelines (other than that time travelers "must not be seen" because it is against wizarding law), then it's impossible to know what type of time traveling occurred. Jonathan laid out the two main types, which I included above. IMO, JKR is operating the Potterverse under Theory 2... in which there is one time with possibly many perspectives. An important aspect of this theory is that events can not be changed during time travel. If someone attempted to change the past, they would fail. TTH! and TTHr! could not have gone back and changed anything because this is impossible. What happened the first time from 9-12 on that night is exactly the same thing that happened the second time from 9-12. We just saw the story from two different perspectives. (By the way, I noticed that the kids left at 5 until midnight, yet when they travelled back in time 3 hours, "golden sunlight was falling across the paved floor". Is the sun still up at 9 p.m. in Britain?) Anyway, a couple of comments that Hermione made in PoA (U.S. version) makes me understand fully where Dave is coming from and why he believes that the Potterverse is under Theory 1 (and he may be entirely dead on). "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione didn't say that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not supposed to and it's against wizarding law to do so. So, how would wizard officials know that time was changed? According to Theory 1, only the time traveler knows that events were changed. "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). There have been quite a few theories to explain how this could possibly happen. I could always understand how a past self could kill a future self. But I can not grasp how a future self could kill a past self unless a new alternate universe was created at the moment of death; in one of the universes, the future person would still be alive and continue on, but in the newly created universe, the person would not exist. I have a feeling that we have seen more time traveling in other HP books, it just wasn't as obvious. In any event, I hope JKR explains things a little further. And even if she doesn't, it's nice reading intelligent conversation from you all! Just my thoughts... From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 01:21:32 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:21:32 -0000 Subject: Spare Wands WAS: Harry Killing in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132074 Jim (me): "Is there a reason a wizard can't do this [get a second wand] for a spare?" Laura: "You know, this just seems like common sense, doesn't it? I wonder if having two wands is sort of taboo in WW culture -- kind of like having two lovers. You can get a new wand if your old one has been destroyed or lost, but you can't have two at the same time. *ponders* Anyone willing to take me up on this theory?" If you can't be with the wand you love, love the wand you're with. SSSusan: "This is a fascinating thought. I wonder WHY it would be taboo? But you're both right that it would make *sense* to have a spare, so what would be preventing people from having one?" SSSusan again: "We didn't hear Harry say how much it cost for his wand, did we? It may be a fair bit of change, as we know Ron never reported his broken wand to him mom, in spite of being told by his teacher(s?) that it needed to be replaced." >From SS/PS: "Harry shivered. He wasn't sure he liked Mr. Ollivander too much. He paid seven gold Galleons for his wand, and Mr. Ollivander bowed them from his shop." Money can't be the problem, at least for Harry. It seems Laura must be close to the truth, or wizards just don't lose their wands often. Heaven help me if I had to add my wand to the other stuff I lose, like my keys, phone, and wallet. I don't have a spare pair of glasses, even though I should, because there's been once or twice in my life I would have benefitted from having them. Now that it's wartime, maybe somebody will think of it. Jim Ferer From labmystc at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 01:55:35 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:55:35 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132075 > > I'd love to hear anybody else's thoughts on why people don't seem to > have spares and why having one might be taboo. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan I would couple this question with: Why can anyone use someone else's wand? Here's my take: Remember what Ollivander said in SS: "The wand chooses the wizard remember..." (p.85 Scholastic US PB). So, according to this, we know that each individual wand is unique, and it chooses the wizard, not the other way around. How many wands did Harry go through without event before he found his, which emitted red and gold sparks from the end? A lot, according to the description. So, from this we can conclude that one wizard is destined for one wand. But of course, there is a problem with this conclusion (bear with me.) Obviously, there is more than one wand available for a person. Ron breaks his in CoS, but then it is replaced in PoA. So, Ron had more than one wand destined for him, right? So, based on that I offer this: A wizard can use only ONE WAND AT A TIME. Perhaps once they choose a wand, a wizard shares some sort of magical bond with that wand, a bond that remains unbroken until the wand itself is broken. Perhaps the breaking of Hagrid's wand at his expulsion was more than symbolic, and also a reason that he can perform only a little magic with the remnants in his umbrella. IMHO, the wand is more a focal point of the magic inside the wizard, and requires this bond with the wizard in order to even work. Now where the theory breaks down for most people is: Some wizards use others' wands to perform magic, not necessarily their own wands. Ah, but I have a rebuttal and examples...two of them in fact: (1) Peter uses LV's wand to kill Cedric and to perform the ritual to raise LV. (2) Neville uses his dad's old wand up until it is broken in the MoM. (3) Neville cannot cast a spell with Hermione's wand. Now, to explain the first two: Peter and Neville obviously use someone else's wands to cast their respective spells. Should they be able to perform magic with a wand not their own? My answer is this: they are able to because the owners of the wands have let them. Neville's wand was his dad's, obviously returned to Neville's grandmother once driven crazy by the Lestranges. The bond Frank had with the wand was broken the moment his mind was, and Gran passed it on to Neville. Thus he can use it. Peter uses Voldemort's wand with his permission. Everything Peter does is as ordered by LV. Thus, Peter can use LV's wand, since it is sanctioned by LV himself. Now we come to number 3. A lot of people will say Neville could not speak the correct words to cast the spell, due to his nose being broken. I disagree that this is the reason. Remember, a lot of magic can be performed with or without a spoken incantation, all it requires is the intent of the wizard performing it. Neville intended to cast stupefy every time he yelled "Stubefy." The intent was there, and the spell should have been cast regardless of the spoken word. However it wasn't. My theory to explain this is that Hermione NEVER gave him permission to use the wand, therefore the bond was never transferred, so to speak. What does everyone think of this theory? Regardless, these things could explain the absence of the spare wand. Just my opinion. Chris *afraid to get into semantical argument about time travel, as he has also studied physics intesively* From ctcasares at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 02:17:34 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:17:34 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > What does everyone think of this theory? Tyler: I like it, but I have a question. Not having my books handy, I may be mistaken, but didn't Harry lose his wand in GoF at the Quidditch World Cup? And wasn't his wand then used to send up the Death Mark in the sky? Supposedly by Lucious Malfoy? Harry certainly didn't grant a *Malfoy* permission to use his wand. Otherwise, I like the theory. And if my memory is faulty, I like your theory even more! ;-) -Tyler From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:31:59 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:31:59 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: What Will Happen at HPFGU When HBP Is Released Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132077 "Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!" The crowd at the HBP pre-release party looked up. A small List Elf wearing a long silver beard and a pair of imitation half-moon glasses rented from the Theory Bay costume shop stood at a small podium at the front of the crowded Great Hall, surveying the crowd. A crowd of elves stood behind, attired in clean, freshly ironed tea towels and tea cosies. "It is time." the Elf squeaked. "Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything." LIST CLOSURE The HPFGU main list will be *closed* to posting for 85 hours beginning when HBP is released at midnight July 16 BST (British Summer Time). While the list is closed, it will be available on a read-only basis. The list will reopen for posting on Tuesday, 20 July at 1:00 p.m. (British Summer Time). In other time zones: New Zealand - 21 July midnight Australia Eastern - 20 July 10 p.m. Australia Western - 20 July 8 p.m. Eastern Europe - 20 July 3 p.m. Central Europe - 20 July 2 p.m. Western Europe - 20 July noon Canada Atlantic - 20 July 9 a.m. Eastern U.S. - 20 July 8 a.m. Central U.S. - 20 July 7 a.m. Pacific U.S. - 20 July 5 a.m. Although 85 hours may seem like an odd length of time, it was selected in order to reopen the list when most of our members (those in Australia, Europe and North America) would be awake. The 85 hours will also give everyone time to read and reflect on the book and, if you're planning to post your initial thoughts, to craft your review with care. SPOILER RULES Main List. The present spoiler policy will be lifted on the main HPFGU list when it reopens to posting. 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The List Elves Ali -- Merry Elf -- Ali@ zymurgy.org Alla -- Alika Elf -- dumbledore11214@ yahoo.com Amanda -- Amandageist -- editor@ texas.net Charme -- Bex Elf -- dontask2much@ yahoo.com Dan -- Kranky Elf -- darkthirty@ shaw.ca Dave -- Herring Elf -- herring_elf@ excite.com Debbie -- Speedy Elf -- elfundeb@ comcast.net Dhyana -- Nani Elf -- grahadh@ yahoo.com Emily -- Twippy Elf -- imamommy@ sbcglobal.net Kathy -- Zaney Elf -- zanelupin@ yahoo.com Kelley -- Kelley Elf -- kelleythompson@ gbronline.com Laura - Wilder Elf -- lhuntley@ fandm.edu Mary Ann -- Dizzy Elf -- marycloudt@ yahoo.ca Melody -- Aphrael Elf -- Malady579@ hotmail.com Nora -- Alto Elf -- nrenka@ yahoo.com Oryomai -- Feathery Elf -- oryomai@ aol.com Petra -- Penapart Elf -- penapart_elf@ yahoo.com Pippin -- Peppy Elf -- foxmoth@ qnet.com Rynne -- Rynny Elf -- rynnewrites@ gmail.com Shaun -- Crikey Elf -- drednort@ alphalink.com.au Sheryll -- Rylly Elf -- s_ings@ yahoo.com Susan (Ravenclaw Bookworm) -- Smiley Elf -- rbookworm46@ yahoo.com Susan (SSSusan) -- Shorty Elf -- susiequsie23@ sbcglobal.net Tiggersong -- Knitty Elf -- tiggersong@ yahoo.com Tim -- Kroppy Elf -- v-tregan@ microsoft.com Heidi -- HPEF Liaison and Unspeakable -- heidi@ fictionalley.org Paul -- TechnoGeist Steve -- Keeper of the Lexicon From ctcasares at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 02:35:21 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:35:21 -0000 Subject: OWLs - UMBRIDGE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: I'm still concerned about Umbridge's 'look' when he passed her upon leaving the Hall. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that his written exam has been 'lost' and so he's only got 50% and therefore just an 'Acceptable'. > Oh I totally agree that she is unable to wreak further havoc *now*, but I think she had already destroyed Harry's written exam at the time of his practical. Hence her gloating look. If his written paper was not submitted for marking, no matter how out of influence Umbridge may now be, there's nothing anyone can do about it > Karen Tyler: That is a truly evil thought. I like it. However, Harry was seen to take the exam. It wasn't just Gryffindors in there either, was it? The OWLs are for all the 5th years. If Harry's is the only written exam not available, I think the question would turn very sharply to Umbridge. Acing the practical with bonus points shows that Harry intended to take the OWL for DADA and should have done well. Umbridge clearly devalued Harry's abilities in front of McGonagall in the discussion of what Harry's career should be. Acing his OWL would prove her wrong, giving her another motive for sabotage. Delores will be asked to return the exam, while Snape sits by holding a vial of Veritaserum at the ready should she profess ignorance. Tyler From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:37:57 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:37:57 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Take Heed - Revised Humongous Bigfile Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132079 An elf clad in a freshly starched pillowcase slowly makes her way through the discussions filling the HPFGU Great Hall and steps to the podium at the front, holding in her arms a file that is both *Humongous* and *Big*. . . . The crowd noise dies down. Voices are heard whispering, It's 'Advanced Potions,' isn't it?" "No, it's a new Humongous Bigfile!" As the elf nods, the voice asks, "What did you change?" The elf snaps her fingers, and a six-foot roll of parchment appears, which she hands to the curious listies. It reads: ************************ CHANGES TO THE HUMONGOUS BIGFILE 1. Posting Limits. We are asking members to try to limit their posts to three per day. This is not a hard and fast rule, but excessive posting will be considered a violation of list rules. If you don't post for a week, this does not mean you can send 21 posts on the seventh day. You will look like a list hog. 2. Combining. If you're responding to multiple posts on the same topic, please combine them. We also provide tips on how to do it. If you combine effectively, you won't have a problem with the posting limits. 3. One-liners. They have been banned. It's a rare point that can be made effectively in a single sentence. 4. We have added tips on constructing good posts, and on how to express opinions without inflaming your fellow listmembers. Among these tips: Please don't post unless you have a canon point to add to the discussion, and please don't post just to reiterate your point. We are a diverse group, and we're not going to agree on everything. Once your point is made, let it drop. 5. Other assorted language tweaks. Especially in the grammar section. 6. List Elves. We took out the list of list elves. Instead, the list of current elves will be kept in a separate Admin file. 7. Other Resources. Rearranging to highlight the VFAQs and the Recommended Posts database. ************************** Looking up from the parchment, a listie asked, "Can we have copies?" "Of course. Copies are being distributed in a separate message by e- owl even as we speak. Or, you can find it here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/HBF_14June2005.html Please read it. And as always, if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at hpforgrownups- owner at yahoogroups.com." A loud crack is heard and the elf disappears, leaving only a shout of "Thanks for listening! And happy reading while you wait for HBP!" in her wake. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:41:05 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:41:05 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132080 >> "Nobody's supposed to change time!" <<<< Inge: So - it CAN be done - but not a wise thing to do (deliberately) because of the unknown consquences. But what if you change time by accident? What if TT-Harry stumbled and broke both legs while hiding with Hermione and Buckbeak? TTHermione might still be able to get him back to the hospital-wing in time for them to get inside before Dumbledore locks the door - but how would they explain to Pomfrey (or anyone else) that Harry has now 2 broken legs - when (in Pomfreys timelinething) only a minute earlier he was in bed with two fine legs? What if TTHarry/Hermione had been attacked by something bad sneaking out from the Forbidden forest and they therefore didn't make it back to the hospital-wing in time? Hermione had been told that time is not supposed to be changed - but a lot of things could happen to the Time-travelers - no matter how careful they might be - which would cause time to change anyways. Inge From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:41:12 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:41:12 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Revised Humongous Bigfile, via Owl Post Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132081 The Humongous Bigfile: Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up We expect that you will fully understand the beauty of the softly humming computer with its shimmering screen, the delicate power of energy that can creep through human nerves, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses... we can teach you how to bottle words, brew theories, even stopper boredom... 1. 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HPFGU-Movie is for discussion of the HP films HPFGU-Announcements is for announcements of new sites, merchandise, fanfic updates, etc. HPFGU-OTChatter is for off-topic discussion of just about anything; any questions or discussion about how to navigate JKR's website should go here. HPfGU also has several auxiliary groups: HPFGU-Convention, where you can learn about HP conferences and other gatherings. HPfGU-Feedback, a forum for discussing list policies, administration, and technical issues. You need special approval to join this list (to verify that you're a member of HPfGU). Follow the instructions on the HPfGU-Feedback home page. Various regional groups, so that list members can arrange meet-ups. Links to these can be found in the Links section on the main list, in the Regional HPfGU Lists folder. HPforGrownups-Archives, which contains all the messages which would not fit in the Messages Section of YahooGroups, including messages from our old Yahoo Club: HPforGrownups-Archives (YahooClubs / YahooGroups 0-31999), HPforGrownups-Archives II (32000-52999), and HPforGrownups-Archives III (53000-82999). Thanks to Paul Kippes for the wwwizardry involved. :-) These zip files can be downloaded to your hard drive for keyword searches. All these groups and more can be found through our Portkey. You'll note that some of the groups have "HPfGU-" at the front, while others have "HP4GU-" or even "HPforGrownups-". We're sorry - they were created by a variety of people and are not standardized. Oops. Our bad. Sunday Chat: We have a weekly chat on Sundays from roughly 2 pm US Eastern (7pm in the UK, 11am US West Coast). To get to the party, go to any Yahoo Chat Room (for example, the one on our main list), then type /join hp:1 1.5 List Administration The List Administration Team, aka the List Elves, is collectively responsible for all administrative and policy decisions governing the entire HPfGU community. A list of the current and former elves can be found in the Admin Files folder; the file is entitled "List Elves": 1.6 Communications from List Administration Onlist messages from the admin team will always have the prefix "ADMIN" in the subject line, and they will be signed by a list elf on behalf of the admin team. The admin team uses Admin messages primarily to announce new policies and other matters of interest to the HPFGU community, and to issue periodic reminders of our posting guidelines. Please read and adhere to these messages. When list elves and poltergeists post on their own behalf, you will know this because they are not signed on behalf of the admin team. Members should not query or discuss an Admin message onlist. If you have a question or comment about an Admin message or any policy, please contact the admin team at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or post about it on the Feedback list. The list elves also send messages offlist to members, for example, to welcome new members, answer members' questions, provide posting guidance for new and old members, and send howlers. These are also official communications and will be signed with the list elf's elf name on behalf of the admin team. Make sure that you regularly check the email account you used to join the group. 1.7 How to Get Help Simple. e-mail your personal List Elf, who will have contacted you within a couple of days after you joined or write to the admin team at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Help Desk: We want all of our members who wish to post to be able to do so without it being a burden, but we realize that our standards for spelling and grammar might be problematic for some. So, we offer members with any issues that might make posting difficult (such as dyslexia, visual impairments, English as a second language) the services of our Help Desk. The Help Desk would be happy to proofread your posts, or help work out the best way for you to participate fully in our community. If you think you could benefit from their help, please contact them at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Please, use these resources. List Elves love getting mail. Contact us with anything you're not sure about. Technical problems. Book questions. Legal issues. If we don't know, we can find out for you. Really, e-mail us! 1.8 Posting by New Members To help members adjust to our list's unique posting conventions, all new members start out on "moderated" status. This means that your first few posts will automatically take a detour to our List Elves. One of the elves will review the post to make sure it is formatted correctly and conforms to the posting guidelines before sending it on to the main list. The elves may make some minor edits to your post, such as correcting typos, adding a signature, fixing the subject line, snipping extraneous quoted material, etc. Please make sure to look at your post when it's reached the list and make note of any edits made; an elf may also contact you to explain any edits made to your post.The substance of the post will never be changed, but if you'd rather we not make any edits, please let us know. The elves may instead return your post to you with a note of explanation so that you may make the edits yourself. Please don't be offended; this is quite normal as we realize that our posting conventions are a bit unique and may take some getting used to. Sometimes a post will appear on the list that's a lot like a post that was sent back to you. That doesn't mean the elves are selectively enforcing the rules. When unmoderated members violate list rules, the infractions are addressed offlist after the fact. As we do return posts or contact people offlist about their posts, please keep an eye on your e-mail account, especially while you're still on moderated status and especially if your posts are not showing up on the list. Sometimes a list elf will add an "Admin Note" (a short comment) at the end of a post; this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the post, usually it's a reminder directed to readers of the post. For example, "Though this post is on-topic, please remember when replying that OT subject matter should be sent to HPfGU-OTChatter." Moderated status also applies to the OTChatter, Movie, and Feedback lists. All posts to the Announcements list are moderated; please note that this group is not a discussion group, but serves as a "community bulletin board". Please also note, the posting rules below in Section 2 apply to all our groups. [back to top] 2. GENERAL COURTESY, NETIQUETTE AND HPFGU-SPECIFIC CONVENTIONS AND POLICIES Our posting conventions may be summarized as ordinary netiquette plus a few quirks that we think are particularly worthwhile in our community. Please observe the following: 2.1 Be Courteous Do not flame, send obscenities or spam, engage in other discourteous, disrespectful or illegal behavior or discuss list policy onlist (send comments to HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com instead). We welcome debate, but do not attack or insult other list members. If you disagree with someone's message, no matter how strongly, please respect the other person's right to his or her own opinion. Cite canon to support your arguments and give chapter references; when expressing an opinion (as opposed to citing canon) or other beliefs (e.g., religious) be sure to make this clear ("I believe..." or "In my opinion..."). If you do wish to argue against the post, do so by building up your own case, rather than just knocking down the other person's. Your post should advance the discussion and not merely repeat arguments you've already made. There is no need to have the last word in a discussion. Difficult as it is, when faced with irreconcilable differences, list etiquette means it is better to walk away. Also consider how other members of our diverse international community might react to your post and remember that sarcasm can be difficult to convey in written form. When in doubt, save your message overnight and reread it in the light of dawn. 2.2 Use the Right List Put on your Sorting Hat and send your posts to the correct list. All posts to the main list should discuss the "canon," that is, the written works of JK Rowling. Discussion of information about the books and characters provided by JK Rowling in her interviews or website is also permitted. Posts that discuss the movies should go to HPFGU-Movie, including posts that use the movies to make a point about the books or that use the movies as a jumping-off point for canon discussion. Any post that does not discuss the books or movies (such as how to navigate JK Rowling's website) should go to HPFGU-OTChatter. Posts that announce or publicize other websites, groups, fics, etc., should be made to HPFGU-Announcements. 2.3 Quoted Material: 2.3.1 Attribution Please put quoted material before your own comments, and identify the author at the beginning of the quote. When replying to a post containing comments from more than one person, make sure you attribute each quote to the proper person. Please preface your comments with your name or handle (for example, "Snapeskitten:") or sign your posts at the bottom with your name or pseudonym -- it helps people quoting you to properly attribute your comments to you. Do not use "Now me:" as readers of down-thread responses may have difficulty properly attributing your comments. Finally, leave some blank space between the quote and your comments. Please clearly indicate quoted material by using chevrons or angle brackets [>], which Yahoo and many e-mail programs insert automatically; or by putting quoted material between quotation marks. 2.3.2 Snipping People do not like to have to scroll through acres of irrelevant material to find the part you're replying to (not to mention your new comments!) so please snip (delete) all quoted material, leaving only the minimum necessary for others to understand your reply. This basic consideration helps those with slow internet connections and bandwidth concerns. Snipping properly can be trickier than it sounds, though, so here are some additional guidelines: You should assume that anyone reading your response has already read all of the other messages in the thread, so it is not necessary to reproduce the gist of the entire thread in your reply. If you've quoted more than a paragraph without inserting a comment of your own, or if the quoted material is longer than your own remarks, you probably haven't snipped enough. If you are using Yahoo's automatic attribution feature (which happens when hitting "reply" to a message), please make sure to remove any unnecessary information, including names of people who are not being quoted in your message. Don't forget to delete Yahoo footers and ads at the end of the post. As both attribution and snipping can be confusing at first, we ask that before you post to the list you first read our Formatting Tutorial, which can be found in the Admin Files folder in the Files section on the main list. 2.4 Keeping the Posting Volume Manageable To help keep our posting volume manageable, please do the following: read the entire thread before posting, and don't merely repeat what's already been said combine all responses on the same topic into a single post limit your posting volume to no more than three a day don't post a one-line response don't post to ask a simple factual question send comments like "me too!" or LOL!" offlist, or cleverly insert them into a longer, more substantive post don't post anything that violates the TOU (see section 1.2) 2.4.1 Make Your Post Worthwhile The best posts are not just written; they are constructed, with an introduction, argument, supporting evidence from canon, and conclusion. We strongly encourage posters to take their time writing posts, and to consider before posting whether the post will add anything new to the discussion or merely repeat things that have already been said. Before starting a new thread, check to see if there has been a similar discussion in the last few weeks. 2.4.2 Combining Read the entire thread before posting, and combine all responses on the same topic (even if they are in different threads) into one post. To do this, you can simply copy the quotes you're responding to into an email as you read through the threads, holding off posting until you're finished. Also, Yahoo's threading function often fails to pick up all the posts in a thread, so please also check the subject headings of recent posts before responding. 2.4.3 No One-liner or Me-too Posts Do not post one-line responses. We know they can be very humorous, but please insert them into a longer, more substantive post. Similarly, do not post just to say "great post!" or "me, too!" (even if it takes you three paragraphs to do it). Onlist compliments are welcome, but only as part of a substantive response. If you have nothing to add, please send your compliments offlist. 2.4.4 No Introductory Posts Don't post just to say "Hi, I'm Melanie from Wisconsin." We do want to get to know you, but conventions have to be adjusted for a list that gets an average of 10-20 new subscribers in one day. Instead, include your introduction within your first substantive post, or post it to OT-Chatter. 2.4.5 Post Limits As a courtesy to other listmembers, please try to limit your posting volume to no more than three a day. Although this is not a strict daily limit, please observe it as a guideline, as excessive posting is a violation of posting rules. 2.5 Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar (and Proofreading!) Use standard English grammar, standard spelling, capitalization, and punctuation. Bear in mind that HPFGU members come from many countries, and some speak English as a second or third language, making it imperative that all members use standard English. This includes using capital letters at the beginning of sentences, "I" when referring to yourself, and proper names. Periods should be at the end of sentences, commas in the middle to show phrasing, and question marks at the end of questions. Please restrain yourself from using multiple exclamation marks or question marks. Never use all lower case letters or, worse still, all CAPITAL LETTERS. It is visually jarring and using all caps is considered SHOUTING. Do not use netspeak. Some common abbreviations are fine (the "btw," "iirc," "afaik" type) but using numbers or single letters for words ("2" for "to", "u" for "you", "r" for "are", etc.) are not. Please write with paragraphs, separating each of them with an empty line (like this section). This "white space" makes it much easier on the eyes, as it is exceedingly straining to read long blocks of unbroken text. Before hitting the 'send' button, please take a few minutes to look over your post and correct any typos, spelling/punctuation errors, or problems with sentence structure or capitalization. This will make it much easier to read and help in getting across your point. If you're used to forums where speed is important (chat rooms, role playing games, etc.), it's easy to fall out of the habit of proofreading. Here, however, your post will be as relevant in twelve hours as it is now. 2.6 Subject Headings Use appropriate subject headings so that others can find the topics that interest them most (e.g., not "Digest 5000," and not "Snape's greasy hair" if the topic has changed to "Lupin's gray hair"). Not everyone has a good threading function on their e-mail. If you are combining responses to more than one post, please change the subject heading to reflect that (e.g., House Elves/Hogwarts Plumbing/Evil! Albus). 2.6.1 Prefixing We've found that some topics provoke a strong reaction. Some people run screaming at the sight of them, while others can't get enough. As a courtesy to other readers, please use the prefixes listed here. FILK: for HP song parodies SHIP: Canon-supported speculation about romantic relationSHIPs between the characters TBAY (Theory Bay): HPfGU's wild and wacky role-playing posting style, featuring cyber-action role-playing (CARP) using fictional settings such as Theory Bay and/or extended metaphors to make a canon point. For more information and examples, visit Hypothetic Alley. 2.7 Observe Spoiler Rules If any spoiler rules are in effect, observe them. Also, please be considerate when revealing spoilers from other works (such as The Lord of the Rings), keeping in mind that many members will not have read those books. In other words, observe basic netiquette and the conventions of the list. If you're not sure of either, ask your List Elf or contact the Admin Team at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. We lives to serve, sirs and misses! 2.8 Failure to Observe Posting Guidelines We all make mistakes from time to time, and occasional lapses, such as spelling and grammar errors, will not earn anyone detention. However, ignoring our netiquette or posting conventions will result in an offlist reminder. Repeated violations or more egregious ones, such as personal attacks on other list members, or doing anything that could be construed as illegal, will result in an offlist Howler. Receiving too many Howlers could result in you being placed back on moderated status or even losing posting privileges. For security reasons, we will place anyone who sends spam or viruses to the list on moderated status immediately. If this was inadvertent on your part, please let us know so your privileges can be restored. [back to top] 3. Other Useful Information 3.1 Frequently Asked Questions HPfGU has put together a list of answers to Frequently Asked Questions. Please read them before posting. They can be found here, and they are also available in the Admin Files folder in the Files section of the main list. 3.2 What All Those Abbreviations Stand For We've collected a list of the most common abbreviations used at HPfGU, including internet abbreviations, HP abbreviations, fanfic terms, emoticons -- and put it into a separate file called HPfGU_Abbreviations.txt which can be found in the Admin Files folder in the Files section on the main list. And don't forget to check out Inish Alley where you'll find a complete list of acronyms coined by HPfGU members to memorialize their favorite theories. This can be found in the Database section on the main list: 3.3 HPFGU's Accumulated Wisdom: 3.3.1 Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them HPFGU's Fantastic Posts is a series of topical essays based on the great posts of yesteryear. They cover a wide range of topics, from JKR to the HP world to the characters, books and fans. All members should read them -- they're witty, entertaining and informative (low- calorie, too!). 3.3.2 Recommended Posts Database As a supplement to the Fantastic Posts essays, the two Recommended Posts database tables (pre- and post-OOP), found in the Database section, contain lists of posts identified by various readers as great posts. We welcome nominations from all our members. If you read a really thoughtful and well written and/or groundbreaking post that you think everyone should read, drop us a line at HPforGrownups- owner at yahoogroups.com. 3.4 The Files, Polls, Links, Database, Photos Sections Lots to be found in these sections, ranging from excellent essays, old contests, pictures, photos of list members, film locations, possible geographic locations for places in the books and all sorts of other things. Check out our polls, where you can register your opinions on a variety of topics, and wander through the Database section where we have a number of tables you might like. Loads of links to other places around the HP fandom in the Links section, too. All can be found via the lefthand menu of the group's homepage. Be sure to check out these sections in the OTChatter and Movie groups, too. [back to top] 4. Other Areas of Online Harry Potter Fandom: Resource Sites You'll often see various websites and forums referenced at HPfGU; these are excellent resources to draw upon for the discussions: J.K. Rowling Official Site - If you thought JKR was cool before, you should see what she's doing for her fans! Frequently updated by The Woman Herself, this web site contains interesting tidbits, trivia, rumor-squashing, news items, and canon clues. The HP Lexicon - Winner of JKR's Fan Site Award July 2004, the Lexicon is produced by HPfGU member Steve Vander Ark and is perhaps the most complete resource to the Harry Potter books apart from JK Rowling (and she admits to using it sometimes when writing away from home!). It deals only with facts from the books and interviews, and not speculation. It's a truly fantastic work and should be read by every fan. The Leaky Cauldron - A news site for everything HP, contributed to by various HPfGUers including Melissa A. and Heidi Tandy. JKR is known to frequent this site. Quick Quotes - A great tool for searching all the transcripts of JKR interviews that are posted online. [back to top] 5. Acknowledgements: Various incarnations of this document have been written and coded by Amy Z, Debbie, ~Joy~, Kelley, Maria, Queer as John, and Wendy, with many contributions, blatant nickings, and edits from various sources, including list elves, poltergeists, and Members Like You. Do you have comments or questions about this file? Do you have a question not answered here? Ask your list elf or e-mail the list administrators directly at HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com. [back to top] * * * Revised June 14, 2005 From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 02:55:41 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:55:41 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132082 > >>Alla: > We differ in evaluating the seriousness of what Draco says. To me it > is as if he starts the fight physically, or almost something like > this. > If you don't want to say that Harry is defending himself, although I > am still keen on this definition, how about responding to Draco's > provocation? Betsy Hp: Oh yes, Harry is *definitely* responding to Draco's provocation. That's why I agree that Draco does reap what he sows. Sometimes the response is over the top, to my mind, but Draco is not innocent. I just don't know why JKR always throws everything except the kitchen sink at him. Can't she just have Harry throw a punch on his own? > >>Phoenixgod: > Untrue. IIRC, the Slytherin Quiddich team is known for dirty, > underhanded, and overly vicious tactics. The Gryffindors are > handicapped by their honor, with Harry's broom and skills making up > the deficit. Neither boy is the underdog in Quiddich. Harry has his > talent and broom and Draco has his cheating, rules breaking team. > Betsy Hp: You forget the twins. The biggest argument against Gryffindor being the "fair and honorable" house. "A moment later, Fred Weasley chucked his Beater's club at the back of Flint's head. Flint's nose smashed into the handle of his broom and began to bleed." (GoF hardback scholastic p.307) [...] "George Weasley elbowed Bole in the face in retaliation." (ibid p.309) Both instances earned Slytherin a penalty shot. I *will* agree that Slytherin is more vicious, but let's not paint the Gryffindor team as a bunch of sweet saints. (And no, retalitation for penalties played against their fellow team-mates is no excuse in my mind. That's the job of the ref, and Mdm Hooch was doing her job.) But in the end the contest came down to Draco and Harry and Harry won *only* because he had the better broom. > >>Alla: > I think I have an aswer, even though I am not sure if you find it to > be to your satisfaction. :-) I know that book says that Harry wins > because of the better broom , but I think the implied reason is not > this one. > Here again we are going back to honorable intentions. Harry left his > position to help his team, while Draco was concerned only about > glory for himself ( speculating here of course) > I think JKR views Harry's intentions as more honorable here, > therefore it does seem OK ( for me at least) to imply that Harry > wins because his broom is better. Betsy Hp: I *can* actually see this as a possibility, but it doesn't really work for me. (Strikes me as a bit mealymouthed.) And I would say that Draco's desire for self-glory is fairly poorly portrayed. Why wouldn't he want to win for his house, just as Harry wants to win for his? We've seen Draco at his cocky worst in CoS. He displays none of those characteristics here. Instead Draco seems as desperate for a win as Oliver Wood. For me, when Draco loses, I feel an immense amount of sympathy for him. JKR describing him as unusually subdued after the loss only adds to it. > >>Phoenixgod: > Wasn't he about to shoot Harry in the back when Moody turns him > into a ferret? Betsy Hp: Another perfect example of Draco's underdog status, IMO. He shoots a hex at Harry as Harry's turning away and the hex misses. For that crime Draco is turned into a ferret and thrown about the room by a teacher. *Draco* gets *hit* by multi hexes thrown by the twins at his back, and nothing is done. It's that sort of stuff that mitigates Draco's snottiness for me. > >>Phoenixgod > Because I think what Rowling is trying to show is Draco's > pathetically poor judgement more than anything else. I think its > foreshadowing many other, much more serious decisons that Draco is > going to make poorly. Betsy Hp: This could be. Or Draco could stand as an example of the worm turning. If Harry starts to underestimate Draco (as he appears to do at the end of OotP) and Draco *does* go evil, Draco might be able to visit some serious hurt on Harry because Harry doesn't recognize the threat. > >>Phoenixgod: > I would take issue with Draco acting with a noble purpose. His > father is an evil terrorist, there is nothing noble in defending > him or what passes for Malfoy honor. Betsy Hp: Mmmm. This argument doesn't work for me, especially when we've been shown that Draco *does* love his family. He would have acted *more* dishonorably if he suddenly turned his back on his father. It would suggest a certain fickleness to my mind. No, if Draco turns on his family it shouldn't be an easy decision. And it shouldn't be simply because his father's press has suddenly turned bad. I'd expect a bit of soul searching to occur first. > >>Phoenixgod: > And the reason why so many DA members leapt to Harry's defense was > to show just how high a regard and level of personal loyalty Harry > commanded. > >>Hells: > I think she is showing how the tide is turning in the Wizarding > World. In VoldWar I the Order members were outnumbered by 20-1, now > the good guys have the odds in their favour. It gives me hope for > this war and the generations that > will follow. Betsy Hp: I like both those reasons. After Harry has felt like the entire school and WW has turned on him I do like that he's shown that there are those who are ready to stand by him. And not just his usual group, either. > >>Phoenixgod: > Ernie relishes the look on Narcissa's face because everyone likes > it when bad things happen to bad people. Betsy Hp: Erm... Their family has already been publically shamed and torn apart. How much blood and guts does Ernie need? This strikes me too much as pack behavior, which I absolutely detest. (Though that's a personal bugaboo of mine, so I recognize that I may be out in left field here.) Betsy Hp From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 03:02:24 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706030225.26394.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132084 --- tylerswaxlion: > didn't Harry lose his wand in GoF at > the Quidditch World > Cup? And wasn't his wand then used to send up the > Death Mark in the > sky? Marozi: Yes, and in POA, Sirius uses both Ron and Snape's wands. Peter uses Lupin's wand. In COS, Gilderoy fully expected to be able to use Ron's wand (it backfired because it was broken). All of these were taken against the owner's will. I just don't believe in an exclusive "relationship" between wizard and wand. I think it's more in the nature of an affinity. A particular wand may "resonate" more than others with a particular wizard, and that advantage may be especially important when you're a student first learning. Of course, this doesn't explain the lack of spare wands. But I don't think an exclusive bond is the explanation. ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 04:18:47 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 04:18:47 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132085 Chris wrote: edit... 3) Neville cannot cast a spell with Hermione's wand. ...edit... Now we come to number 3. A lot of people will say Neville could not speak the correct words to cast the spell, due to his nose being broken. I disagree that this is the reason. Remember, a lot of magic can be performed with or without a spoken incantation, all it requires is the intent of the wizard performing it. Neville intended to cast stupefy every time he yelled "Stubefy." The intent was there, and the spell should have been cast regardless of the spoken word. However it wasn't. My theory to explain this is that Hermione NEVER gave him permission to use the wand, therefore the bond was never transferred, so to speak. What does everyone think of this theory? Regardless, these things could explain the absence of the spare wand. Just my opinion. Kemper now: I agree with you completely about intent. But going back to who ever wrote about magical resonance, perhaps Neville couldn't effectively use Hermione's wand because his magical resonance didn't match 'equally' or didn't harmonize with it. I think Neville's magical resonance is perhaps in complete dissonance with Hermione's. I'm not saying that they are opposites in personalities, though I suppose that could be argued, I'm saying Herminone is a little bit oboe and Neville's a little bit banjo. Or not... Kemper From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 6 06:18:39 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:18:39 -0000 Subject: HELP! was Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > How can TT!Harry know what happened to normal Harry? Because to > Harry's Time Preception, he has already lived that time. He > experienced 6 consecutive hours while the Universal Time Line > experience only 3 consecutive hours. Harry entered the past FROM THE > FUTURE and in the future his future self has knowledge of the events > he has already lived. By Jove, I think I've got it!! Thank you. I understand it now. You explain things very well, by the way, are you a teacher? When we did genetics at A level the others in the class (only 5 of us) didn't get it at all whereas it all made perfect sense to me but I couldn't comprehend what there was not to get and could not for the life of me explain it! Karen From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 6 06:30:58 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 02:30:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands Message-ID: <214.416c869.2ffcd4a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132087 In a message dated 7/5/2005 8:56:21 PM Central Standard Time, labmystc at yahoo.com writes: The bond Frank had with the wand was broken the moment his mind was, and Gran passed it on to Neville. Thus he can use it. Peter uses Voldemort's wand with his permission. Everything Peter does is as ordered by LV. Thus, Peter can use LV's wand, since it is sanctioned by LV himself. Now we come to number 3. A lot of people will say Neville could not speak the correct words to cast the spell, due to his nose being broken. I disagree that this is the reason. Remember, a lot of magic can be performed with or without a spoken incantation, all it requires is the intent of the wizard performing it. Neville intended to cast stupefy every time he yelled "Stubefy." The intent was there, and the spell should have been cast regardless of the spoken word. However it wasn't. My theory to explain this is that Hermione NEVER gave him permission to use the wand, therefore the bond was never transferred Good theory but I still think it was Neville's inability to pronounce the word that caused the problem. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (except for the times when its a whale ;-)) Yes, we have seen Dumbledore do wandless magic and we have seen older wizards perform magic without incantations but I can recall only one instance of a student performing wandless magic and that was when Harry lit his wand with Lumos. I dont; even recall any instances of Hermione pulling off wandless or incantationless magic. And granted Neville is getting stronger by he's not in that league . .yet. As for the permission thing. . I have no canon for it but I still believe that the wizard/wand connection is rather along the order of 'for better or worse til death do us part' Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 06:54:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:54:32 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - The Twist. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" wrote: > smilingator (now): > > ...edited... > > Anyway, a couple of comments that Hermione made in PoA (U.S. > version) makes me understand fully where Dave is coming from ... > > "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione didn't > say that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not supposed to > ... > > "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when > wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up killing > their past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). There have > been quite a few theories to explain how this could possibly happen. > > Just my thoughts... bboyminn: One itty-bitty teeny-tiny problem with this. These are warnings from a stern teacher to a precocious little girl who is somewhat prone to getting herself in dangerous situations. We really can't take these as anything more that hearsay. We don't know the truth of them beyond the fact that McGonagall was trying to impress on Hermione that the Time Turner was not a toy to be played with; it was indeed a dangerous object. So whether these things are true or whether they were scare tactics by McGonagall we really don't know. On the otherhand, the rule about not being seen, I and Hermione have already explained, and those explanations fit with any reasonable logical analysis of the situation. Being seen time traveling by yourself or anyone else is not a good thing, depending on the circumstances, it opens the door to serious problems. Of course, going back in time and killing yourself, has its own set of obvious problems, and would be recommended against with equal enthusiasm and logic. Anyone who has even a basic Sci-Fi knowledge of time travel will tell you that changing history is a dangerous thing. It's outcome is extremely difficult to predict. One small change can create a chain of events that cascades into a cataclysmic future. As far as JKR setting specific rules of time travel, not all sci-fi spells out its rules. Sometimes the rules are just divined from the unfolding of the story. JKR has a significant plot twist that she is building up to. That means she has to be very subtle in the clues and hints she does give out, or she risks blowing the whole plot twist. For example, when normal Harry, Ron, and Hermione witness (of sorts) the execution of Buckbeak, JKR uses the Trio's reaction to invoke similar feelings in the reader. Because the Trio believe Buckbeak was executed, we the readers believe it too. But JKR never comes out and says it. We assume it based on assorted sounds we hear and the conclusion of the Trio. JKR wants us to think Buckbeak was executed because that makes the Plot Twist that much more sweet. But JKR never lied to us, we reach a conclusion on our own. Further, this thread has already pointed out incidences where each pair (TT!Harry, TT!Hermione, N!Harry, and N!Hermione) were aware of each others presence in the unfolding of time. But again, JKR could not make it too obvious, or it would give away the whole story. Just a few random thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Wed Jul 6 07:02:36 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:02:36 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132089 Chris: A lot of people will say Neville could not > speak the correct words to cast the spell, due to his nose being > broken. I disagree that this is the reason. Remember, a lot of magic > can be performed with or without a spoken incantation, all it requires > is the intent of the wizard performing it. Neville intended to cast > stupefy every time he yelled "Stubefy." The intent was there, and the > spell should have been cast regardless of the spoken word. However it > wasn't. My theory to explain this is that Hermione NEVER gave him > permission to use the wand, therefore the bond was never transferred, > so to speak. What does everyone think of this theory? > Regardless, these things could explain the absence of the spare > wand. Just my opinion. Julia here: Well, I must say I disagree with you. I think that the inability to cast a spell was caused by the fact that Neville didnt spell the incantation right. For example in SS where the trio is learning 'vingardium leviosa' charm. Ron wasnt able to cast it only because he did it with the wrong accent! In PoA Harry learns how to cast a Patronus charm. Only when he spells expecto patronum in the right way (not patrono!)something happens. There is plenty of examples where students learn how to spell the incantation correctly, and JKR shows it to us so I think it must be important! When it comes to the case of using somebody's else wand - IMO if you're a really powerful wizard you are able to cast a spell from a wand which is not yours. But students may have some problems with it... Someone mentioned the situation in GoF when Hary's wand is stolen. I just want to say that it wasnt Lucius but invisible Barty Crouch Jr.!! Julia From julia.m.french at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 07:16:40 2005 From: julia.m.french at gmail.com (Julia French) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:16:40 +0100 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - The Twist. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132090 > wrote: > > ...edited... > > "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione > > didn't say that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not > > supposed to ... > > > > "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened > > when wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up > > killing their past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). bboyminn wrote: > These are warnings from a stern teacher to a precocious little > girl who is somewhat prone to getting herself in dangerous > situations. We really can't take these as anything more than > hearsay. We don't know the truth of them beyond the fact that > McGonagall was trying to impress on Hermione that the Time > Turner was not a toy to be played with; it was indeed a > dangerous object. So whether these things are true or whether > they were scare tactics by McGonagall we really don't know. However, Mcgonagall had been teaching Hermione for two years when she said this. She would have been well aware that one of Hermione's first actions on hearing about time-turners would probably be to go to the library and read up about them. Therefore she is hardly likely to have given her false - or even very exaggerated - information about anything concerning them. Julia - making her first post From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 6 07:53:58 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:53:58 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Phoenixgod: > > >>Alla: > > > > He CHOOSES to pick up fights with Harry. Now, despite that fact I > > could have feel for him, IF he picked those fights with Harry for > > the RIGHT reasons. You know, if Draco was doing it to fight the > > bad guy. But Draco does it for all the wrong reasons, IMO. His > > lack of morals is what does it for me. > > Now, you could argue that in Draco's mind he IS doing it for the > > right reasons, but to me as I said before definitions of "right" > > and "wrong" in Potterverse very clearly defined whether we look at > > it with Harry's eyes or not. > > Betsy Hp: > Why? Why not have just Harry beat on Draco > in OotP, instead of Harry and George? Hickengruendler: I'm not sure, if you will like this answer, but IMO, the primarly reason for doing so was the plot. Jo needed an opportunity for Harry being thrown out of the Quidditch Team, so that readers like me, who find the Quidditch sections in the books pretty boring, don't have to read about more Quidditch than necessarily. ;-) Also, Harry went with Hagrid to see Grawp during a Quidditch match, and it was the only opportunity, since Umbridge was occupied with the Game at this point. Similarly, after being thrown out of the Quidditch Team, Fred and George didn't have any more reasons, to stay at Hogwarts (they said so themselves), leading to their glorious exit. This scene basically leads to the following events. From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 6 07:59:08 2005 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:59:08 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - The Twist. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" > wrote: > > > smilingator (now): > > > > ...edited... > > > > Anyway, a couple of comments that Hermione made in PoA (U.S. > > version) makes me understand fully where Dave is coming from ... > > > > "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione didn't > > say that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not supposed to > > ... > > > > "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when > > wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up killing > > their past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). There have > > been quite a few theories to explain how this could possibly happen. > > > > Just my thoughts... > > bboyminn: > > One itty-bitty teeny-tiny problem with this. These are warnings from a > stern teacher to a precocious little girl who is somewhat prone to > getting herself in dangerous situations. We really can't take these as > anything more that hearsay. We don't know the truth of them beyond the > fact that McGonagall was trying to impress on Hermione that the Time > Turner was not a toy to be played with; it was indeed a dangerous object. > > So whether these things are true or whether they were scare tactics by > McGonagall we really don't know.? Alshain neatly snips away the rest as will only add a point: We also don't know if Hermione is quoting McGonagall literally, the way she would if she were explaining the principles of time travel to Harry and Ron in front of the common-room fire. One of the things I love so with Hermione is that she doesn't handle stress very well and tends to lose her otherwise wonderfully clear and cool head in crises; it makes her human (and boy can I relate to it). Examples: "There's no wood!" (PS) and "Oh, help, help" and "dancing uncertainly on the spot" (POA). Her entire body language and speech pattern during the three hours of time travel show that she isn't dealing well - she fumbles, she's breathless, she looks terrified, she squeaks, she looks shaken. She's at a loss at understanding what Dumbledore wants them to do and hasn't planned in advance for the emergence of a feral werewolf. Not at all our usual, competent, logical Miss Granger. Hermione is at the time doing something that is probably going to be both dangerous and illegal, Harry chooses this critical moment to have a bad idea, and she has to explain *somehow* and *fast* why it is a bad idea in a language that he will understand, while at the same time her synapses aren't working at optimal speed. Just my opinion. Alshain From caesian at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 08:05:59 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 01:05:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Inconsistencies in the DADA position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132093 On Jun 30, 2005, at 2:02 AM, finwitch wrote: > > BriefChronicles now: > > > If he knew that the DADA position would reveal the professor's > darkest > > secret, then why would he hire Lupin? > > Finwitch: > > It is possible that Dumbledore didn't *know* but doubted it and since > all the staff already knew, it's questionable whether Lupin's > lycanthropy could be even considered a secret. Dumbledore may have > figured that this way he'd find the truth about things like: Did > Remus help Sirius escape? etc. > > Besides, the revealance tended to come out at the end of the year - > after this teacher has taught the students. What, I ask, would a > student figure, after witnessing Lupin's gentle manner and excellence > at his subject and teaching it for a year when this revelation comes > out? Probably that being a werewolf is not such a bad thing as > Ministry &al. say it is... > > BTW, Hagrid's secret was *also* revealed after he became a professor, > so that spell might not be limited to DADA at all. He, however, > managed to keep the secret for over a year... > > I wonder, though -- could these few lines of Hogwarts school song > (that Dumbledore conducted for the Weasley twins) be a magically > binding contract? > > 'So teach us things worth knowing, > Bring back what we've forgot, > Just do your best, we'll do the rest, > And learn until our brains all rot.' > > I ask you, why did the teachers' smiles become fixed when Dumbledore > came about with the song? > > Finwitch > > I think Finwitch is correct here, and has been for some time! See below: On Aug 19, 2004, at 3:34 AM, finwitch wrote: > > 2) It is possible that the DADA post IS sort of jinxed. Anyone who > has taught DADA has had his darkest secret revealed; incompetent/ evil > ones get themselves hurt. Dumbledore would NOT want Snape's Dark Mark > leak into the public... Caesian (Aug 19, 2004): Oh - my - gosh. This is exactly right. It also makes perfect sense - who wants a DADA teacher with terrible dark secrets? To review: Quirrell - everyone now knows he was two-faced. Lockhart - everyone knows he is a fake. Lupin - everyone knows he is a werewolf. Imposter!Moody - everyone knows he was Barty Crouch Jr. Umbridge - everyone knows she was incompetent, lawbreaking and is now out of power If Snape took the DADA post, everyone would know ... ? Obviously something Dumbledore does not want revealed (- although Snape applies for the position anyway. Maybe he is unaware of the nature of the jinx?) Caesian From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 07:26:11 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:26:11 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tylerswaxlion" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > > another's wand> > What does everyone think of this theory? > > Tyler: > > I like it, but I have a question. Not having my books handy, I may be > mistaken, but didn't Harry lose his wand in GoF at the Quidditch World > Cup? And wasn't his wand then used to send up the Death Mark in the > sky? Supposedly by Lucious Malfoy? > It was Barty Jr., but we've seen wizards use others' wands more than once. You don't have to have permission. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 09:19:58 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 02:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using two wands at once In-Reply-To: <1120635947.1290.82530.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050706091958.66237.qmail@web33107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132095 The discussion on spare wands got me thinking...do you suppose its possible for a wizard to use two wands simutaneously? Obviously, this would be an advanced skill, something maybe only a handful could master. I can't help but think what an advantage this would be in a duel, to double your firepower so to speak. Or perhaps to cast an offensive spell and a defensive spell at the same time, thus attacking while preventing an opponent from intercepting the attack with a curse of his own. One problem with this theory, I admit, is the fact that (at least in some cases) spells require the caster to focus on a particular thought or emotion as hard as they can. In this case, casting two spells at once would require a "splitting" of the mind, an ability to concentrate one two separate subjects with equal intensity. Is such a thing possible? And if it is, why haven't we witnessed this skill before? What say you, dear reader? Tyler The greatest power that a person possesses is the power to choose. J. Martin Kohe ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 6 09:11:13 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:11:13 -0000 Subject: Question1 - Godrics Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132096 What happened at Godric's Hollow is key to the whole series. We know that much from JKR herself. The way the books are written, this means for us to find out, someone has to tell us. But who? 1. Dumbledore - Everything so far indicates that DD really is not exactly sure what happened at Godric's hollow, and why it is that Voldemort failed. Surely it has to be someone who was actually there. So who was there?? 2. Voldemort - LV could tell Harry what happened, or Harry could even get into LVs head and see for himself. PROBLEM - LV doesn't seem to know what happened or why would he be searching for the prophecy 3. Severus Snape?? - We don't know if he was there or not. But he knew all the Death Eater's secrets + all the Orders secrets, so is in a unique position to understand the events at Godric's Hollow. PROBLEM - If he know's why hasn't he told DD?? 4. Lily (Sirius' mirror) - IS the whole reason for Sirius' death, so that he can track down Lily's spirit, and then relay what happened to Harry via the mirror. Definitely my favourite!!!!!!!! Brothergib From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 09:47:24 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:47:24 -0000 Subject: Does JKR dislike writing about Quidditch matches? (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132097 Throughout the five books JKR takes great pains to describe in excruciating detail every moment of the Quidditch matches -- as long as Harry is playing. It seems to be a decision that Jo made early and then soon regretted. Throughout the books she seems to take great pains in order to keep Harry from actually participating in these Quidditch matches. The first match Harry plays in (in PS) is important to the plot. It is the moment when Quirrel decides to hex Harry's broom. In order for this important plot point to not seem too jarring, Jo wisely felt it necessary to give a blow by blow account of the whole match. It seems to be a decision she regrets, because every Quidditch match Harry has competed in has had a similiar narrative (complete with commentary by Lee Jordan.) The second match for Harry is much less important to the plot. Snape officiates, but that is the only important plot point. Consequently, Jo has Harry end the match in record time. The pattern of Jo trying to avoid giving an account of the matches has begun. Harry misses the final match of the season ostensibly because he's unconscience in the hospital wing, but the real reason seems to be that Jo doesn't want to write about another match. Harry's second year has the same pattern. The first match is important to the plot -- Dobby creates the rogue bludger and breaks Harry's arm. But none of the other potential matches would push the plot forward so Jo simply cancels the rest of the season. This seems to me a blatant attempt to avoid writing about them the danger is from within the school building -- not the Quidditch pitch. PoA is the only book where Harry plays in all three matches that he is supposed to play in and it is the lone anomaly where Jo describes a match that is not central to the plot. The first match introduces Cedric and shows the destruction of Harry's beloved Nimbus. The second and third matches are not particularly important to the plot, though. The second match introduces Cho Chang and shows Malfoy and co. trying to sabatoge Harry, but these do not necessarily have to take place at a Quidditch match per se. The final match has no bearing on the plot except to show Harry (and Wood) finally win the Quidditch Cup. PoA is the lone exception to my theory. In GoF Jo cleverly uses the Quidditch world Cup as exposition to three important things: introducing Krum, introducing veela, and introducing leprachaun gold. Having written an entire chapter on one Quidditch match, Jo seems to tire of the whole idea and decides to cancel the entire Quidditch season. This seems particularly lame (and blatant) because the hosting of the Triwizard tournament does not seem to really interfere with the play of Quidditch. Sure the final task takes place on the Quidditch pitch, but honestly, we're only talking about six Quidditch matches all season. Would it really have been that difficult to move the one or two matches that would have taken place that month to another Saturday? And finally we have OotP in which Harry and the Weasleys lose their tempers at Draco and are banished from the Quidditch team. Consequently, we get only a perfunctory description of Ginny's catch of the golden snitch. (No blow by blow account from Lee Jordan narrated in the book.) And the final match, in which Ron finally gets the limelight takes places off camera because of the Grawp incident. After five books then, in which Harry could have potentially played in fifteen matches, he has only played in seven. 7/15 seems to be an extremely poor ratio considering he is a star player, and he's only missed one due to injury. For a sport about which the WW cares so deeply, they do seem to cancel an awful lot of matches. All seven of Harry's matches are described in great detail. None of the three he misses but that are not cancelled are given more than a cursory description. Five matches (Five! out of a potential fifteen -- fully one third!) are cancelled. It seems to me that Jo has decided that she MUST write in great detail about all of Harry's matches, and yet she doesn't enjoy doing it. I think it would have been perfectly acceptable for her to give much more brief descriptions of the quidditch matches and therefore better maintained credibility. I have not yet seen a plausible reason as to why Quidditch couldn't be played during the Triwizard Tournament. I think the real answer to that Frequently Asked Question is that Jo didn't want to write about three more matches that book. Thoughts? -Nathaniel From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 6 09:18:50 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:18:50 -0000 Subject: Question 2 - OOTP AK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132098 "This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." DD - OOTP 37 If this IS the weapon, then why did LV so casually attempt to AK Harry, the minute he bumped into him in the Dept of Mysteries? He also did the same thing at the end of GOF. From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 09:18:09 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:18:09 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: What Will Happen at HPFGU When HBP Is Released Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132099 In a dank dungeon, amidst clouds of smoke, bangings and clangings and mumblings of "Bugger!", a cluster of elves hammer furiously on a large and ancient hourglass... "I thought *you* were calibrating the days and dates, Cranky Elf..." "No, *I* was sweeping out the list owls' cages; you're thinking of Zaney Elf..." A wee voice from under a pile of letters waiting to go out: "I'm minding the pending queue; 'twasn't me...where's Speedy Elf? She could fix it..." "Oh! Fellows, we've got company!" Hastily drawing a curtain to hide the hubbub... "Er...hello, hello...pay no attention to the elves behind the curtain there.." ("Bugger!" "Shorty Elf! Mind yourself, we've got guests!" "Sorry, sorry! YIPE!" "Easy with that oven door; it's got to hold out through the next book, and we'll all need to be slamming our ears in it, you know..." "Sorry! Ooof...") "Ahem, ahem, 'scuse all that. We're quite ashamed, misses and sirs...our Time-Turner wasn't properly calibrated, you see...there! Now we've got it! Here's the *proper* dates, then." The HPFGU main list will be *closed* to posting for 85 hours beginning when HBP is released at midnight July 16 BST (British Summer Time). While the list is closed, it will be available on a read-only basis. The list will reopen for posting on Tuesday, 19 July at 1:00 p.m. (British Summer Time). In other time zones: New Zealand - 20 July midnight Australia Eastern - 19 July 10 p.m. Australia Western - 19 July 8 p.m. Eastern Europe - 19 July 3 p.m. Central Europe - 19 July 2 p.m. Western Europe - 19 July 1 p.m. Canada Atlantic - 19 July 9 a.m. Eastern U.S. - 19 July 8 a.m. Central U.S. - 19 July 7 a.m. Mountain U.S. - 19 July 6 a.m. Pacific U.S. - 19 July 5 a.m. "Hope we didn't cause too much confusion there, sirs and misses...please let us know if we can do anything more for you!" (HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com) The slightly befuddled List Elves From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 6 11:02:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:02:57 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - The Twist. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132100 > > wrote: > > > ...edited... > > > "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione > > > didn't say that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not > > > supposed to ... > > > > > > "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened > > > when wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up > > > killing their past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). Julia: > However, Mcgonagall had been teaching Hermione for two years when > she said this. She would have been well aware that one of > Hermione's first actions on hearing about time-turners would > probably be to go to the library and read up about them. Therefore > she is hardly likely to have given her false - or even very exaggerated - information about anything concerning them. > Pippin: I think the thing to remember is, this is magic and you *can* have it both ways. The consistency of natural law which happens to be the foundation of modern science is just not operative in the Potterverse. A broomstick defies gravity because the wizard wills it to, not, I think, because there is some sort of alternate physcial universe in which broomsticks fly. Whether the time traveller can change time, ie create events which he knows did not occur, IMO, depends on the intention of the time traveller. Hermione was deadset on saving Buckbeak and Sirius while avoiding anything that would appear as a paradox to her future self, and IMO, the magic obliged. A wizard who did want to change time might engender all sorts of mischief, and so Hermione has been sternly warned. Once she learned that she didn't attend charms class, she didn't try to use the time turner to go back all though there doesn't seem to be any physical reason that she couldn't have. But her future self would have observed a paradox, in that Ron and Harry had informed her that she wasn't there. This, according to Hermione and Dumbledore, is forbidden by wizarding law. There would be no need for the law if this was, in fact, impossible. The shattering time turner cabinet in OOP may indicate what can happen when a time turner is used carelessly. There we can see time operating locally instead of universally, just as it does in the hummingbird's jar, creating a sort of travelling loop. If you really want a headache, think about that for a while. Neither the universal time line theory nor the alternate time lines theory explains how the hummingbird can be seen shrinking back to an egg. Time inside the jar seems to be operating according to the intention ofthe wizard that enchanted it -- so that the much longer lifespan of a middle-aged Death Eater can be reversed in the same amount of 'real' time as it took for the hummingbird to become an egg again, itself very much sped up. Pippin From cbowker at ufl.edu Wed Jul 6 11:19:49 2005 From: cbowker at ufl.edu (paddyandnick) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:19:49 -0000 Subject: Question from a lurker... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132101 I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask a question :) A friend and I are going to one of the midnight Half-Blood Prince parties at a local bookstore. She wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't figure out which house she belonged to. Her entry on Wikipedia says "unknown". Can anybody help? Thanks! Cynthia From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:03:51 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:03:51 -0000 Subject: Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132102 > Julia here: > When it comes to the case of using somebody's else wand - IMO if > you're a really powerful wizard you are able to cast a spell from a > wand which is not yours. But students may have some problems with > it... > > Someone mentioned the situation in GoF when Hary's wand is stolen. I > just want to say that it wasnt Lucius but invisible Barty Crouch > Jr.!! > Finwitch: Quite - same Barty who used Moody's wand for a year with no apparent difficulty (or Dumbledore would have known about the impostor much earlier). Also, Sirius used Snape's wand effectively (and those two loath each other!!!) And what of that little two-year-old Kevin with Daddy's wand in GoF? Wand is a tool -- the most important tool a wizard has... it's like the set of knives for a cook... or the violin for the violist... or a favourite dish or piece or clothing... Affection a person may develop to a tool - and then just remember that wizard uses the wand for just about everything... yes, one can use another's wand but not as well as ones own - or as Ollivander put it, one can never get as good results with another wizard's wand. (not that it's impossible or requires some sort of co- operation from the wand's owner). And as for spare wands -- well, Ollivander could use ANY one in his shop, they're ALL his in a way. He made them, after all... thousands of them so there's 'spare wands' for you... sort of :-) - interesting was that Ollivander used incantation with Fleur's (self- made considering she has her grandmother's hair as a core? Maybe they even teach wandmaking at Beauxbatons the year before last) and with Krum's (another wandmaker he recognised) but not with Cedric's or Harry's (both his making). However, since Harry had to register his wand during his arrival at the ministry (OOP), I'd say that having more than one wand at the time is forbidden by the ministry. After all, snapping a wand (after which you cannot legally buy a new one, just watch Ollivander and Hagrid) wouldn't have that same effect if just anyone can have a dozen wands or so... Besides, I think Ollivander would be offended by the mere idea of a 'spare' wand... It's also possible that the new/spare wands cost more than the first one... nor are the same - as every Phoenix/Unicorn/Dragon is unique. Finwitch From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 6 10:20:22 2005 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:20:22 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > > Why? Why not have just Harry beat on Draco > > in OotP, instead of Harry and George? > > Hickengruendler: > > I'm not sure, if you will like this answer, but IMO, the primarly > reason for doing so was the plot. Jo needed an opportunity for Harry > being thrown out of the Quidditch Team, so that readers like me, who > find the Quidditch sections in the books pretty boring, don't have to > read about more Quidditch than necessarily. ;-) Also, Harry went with > Hagrid to see Grawp during a Quidditch match, and it was the only > opportunity, since Umbridge was occupied with the Game at this point. > Similarly, after being thrown out of the Quidditch Team, Fred and > George didn't have any more reasons, to stay at Hogwarts (they said > so themselves), leading to their glorious exit. This scene basically > leads to the following events. Alshain: Good analysis. From a character standpoint, I see it as a consequence of Weasley family dynamics - in spite of their differing opinions, they're a very cohesive group, aren't they? After Percy left, the rest of them got even more defensive of each other to keep the front intact (outwards, that is.) The internal bickering remains, but any outsider who cracks jokes about a family member is going to have a heap of irate, hot-tempered and red-headed Weasleys descending like a ton of bricks. From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:31:48 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:31:48 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132104 > smilingator (now): > > I just want to say that PoA is my favorite book of the series so far > because of the time travelling element. After reading the recent > discourse on the boards (and getting a headache from it too... hehe), > I've decided to jump into the conversation. --- > IMO, JKR is operating the Potterverse under Theory 2... in which there > is one time with possibly many perspectives. An important aspect of > this theory is that events can not be changed during time travel. If > someone attempted to change the past, they would fail. TTH! and TTHr! > could not have gone back and changed anything because this is > impossible. What happened the first time from 9-12 on that night is > exactly the same thing that happened the second time from 9-12. We > just saw the story from two different perspectives. (By the way, I > noticed that the kids left at 5 until midnight, yet when they > travelled back in time 3 hours, "golden sunlight was falling across > the paved floor". Is the sun still up at 9 p.m. in Britain?) > > Anyway, a couple of comments that Hermione made in PoA (U.S. version) > makes me understand fully where Dave is coming from and why he > believes that the Potterverse is under Theory 1 (and he may be > entirely dead on). > > "Nobody's supposed to change time!" (page 398, US) Hermione didn't say > that you CAN'T change time, just that you are not supposed to and it's > against wizarding law to do so. So, how would wizard officials know > that time was changed? According to Theory 1, only the time traveler > knows that events were changed. > > "Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when > wizards have meddled with time... Loads of them ended up killing their > past or future selves by mistake!" (page 399, US). There have been > quite a few theories to explain how this could possibly happen. I > could always understand how a past self could kill a future self. But > I can not grasp how a future self could kill a past self unless a new > alternate universe was created at the moment of death; in one of the > universes, the future person would still be alive and continue on, but > in the newly created universe, the person would not exist. Finwitch: Well, I agree that it's a "Being in several places at the same time" rather than a change-the-past time-travel. Because the Timeturned Harry saw his past self clearly, and even the pastHarry saw himself casting the Patronus... Still, I'd say that a theoretical possibility exists to change the past. As for the 'killing your past/future self' - well... if either kills the other 'self' the survivor would continue from there as a single person... About the Sun being up at 9 p.m. I'd say definately... At 55-58 North, during Summer, particularly near or at 21st June at least (Scotland that is). You ever heard of Midnight Sun that can be enjoyed during Summer 65 N or further North... Finwitch From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:06:41 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:06:41 -0000 Subject: Question1 - Godrics Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > What happened at Godric's Hollow is key to the whole series. We know > that much from JKR herself. The way the books are written, this means > for us to find out, someone has to tell us. But who? > Brothergib Perhaps noone will tell us; maybe we'll be there in chapter one of HBP or book seven to see the events unfold ourselves. There have been a couple of chapters that aren't from Harry's perspective; maybe this one is next (please?). Jamie From pipes814 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:20:31 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:20:31 -0000 Subject: Question from a lurker... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132106 Cynthia wrote: > [My friend] wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't > figure out which house she belonged to. Her entry on Wikipedia > says "unknown". Can anybody help? Thanks! Looks like you'll have to guess. The HP Lexicon doesn't say either, and they tend to know everything. She doesn't seem brave at all; I'd pick something other than Gryffindor. Jamie From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 6 13:20:04 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:20:04 -0000 Subject: Question from a lurker... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132107 "paddyandnick" wrote: > I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask a question :) A friend and I are > going to one of the midnight Half-Blood Prince parties at a local > bookstore. She wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't figure out > which house she belonged to. Her entry on Wikipedia says "unknown". > Can anybody help? Thanks! Potioncat: As this is a book event and not a...a...MTMNBN event...keep in mind the school uniforms in canon are generic. They are all black. The only time something might be worn to show House membership, seems to be during Quidditch matches. From crownless_aragorn at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 6 14:28:53 2005 From: crownless_aragorn at yahoo.co.in (Subhash Sane) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:28:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory Message-ID: <20050706142853.21508.qmail@web8609.mail.in.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132108 Hello to all of you. I was surfing the mugglenet and found that one of the questions that was selected in the Ask JKR contest was- What would Boggart turn into if he sees Voldemort? Well, I am trying to answer this question and the answer is simple and straight. Voldemort will see Boggart in his original form. Let?s go ahead and prove this one. Boggart is shape-lifter, which takes the shape of the thing the person standing in front of him fears the most. It is necessary for Boggart to see that person in order to take the shape of his/her worst fear. There is one person who has seen Boggart in his original form and his name is Alastor Moody. Moody had recognized the Boggart in the drawer when Molly asked her to confirm it. Here, Boggart didn?t see Moody even if Moody?s magical eye saw him. Hence, Moody saw the real shape of Boggart. Let?s see what Boggart does when he sees a person in front of him. We can say that Boggart doesn?t need a wand to do this type of legilimency. Yes, I am talking about legilimency. Boggart penetrates the mind of his client and immediately gains the knowledge of ?HIS/HER FEAR?. And after that, it takes the shape of that fear. That?s how it works. Now comes the question of wizards like Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Snape who have mastered Occlumency. If they see a Boggart, they can easily close their minds to him and hence Boggart is confused and is forced to take no shape at all. Hence, Boggart won?t take any shape when he will see Voldemort or Dumbledore or Snape. Subhash Sane, who supports Tom Riddle's claim that Galileo was wrong and the Earth revolves around Tom Riddle. --------------------------------- Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! http://in.mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 6 14:53:41 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:53:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: <20050706142853.21508.qmail@web8609.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132109 Subhash Sane wrote: > What would Boggart turn into if he sees Voldemort? > Well, I am trying to answer this question and the answer is simple > and straight. Voldemort will see Boggart in his original form. > > We can say that Boggart doesn't need a wand to do this type of > legilimency. Yes, I am talking about legilimency. Boggart > penetrates the mind of his client and immediately gains the > knowledge of `HIS/HER FEAR'. And after that, it takes the shape of > that fear. That's how it works. > > Now comes the question of wizards like Voldemort, Dumbledore, and > Snape who have mastered Occlumency. If they see a Boggart, they can > easily close their minds to him and hence Boggart is confused and > is forced to take no shape at all. Hence, Boggart won't take any > shape when he will see Voldemort or Dumbledore or Snape. SSSusan: This certainly makes SENSE -- that is, that the way a Boggart works is by some mechanism similar to Legilimency. But still, I'm wondering whether we can make this assumptive leap. It may be something *similar* to the effect of Legilimency, but IS it actually a form of Legilimency? And even if it is something related, do we know that Occlumency would work to stop it? I'm not convinced it works that way. In fact, I think a Boggart "works" on everyone it "sees." (Heck, we don't even know that it DIDN'T turn into whatever Moody's boggarts always turn into, do we? [Away from books -- could be wrong!]) I'm one of those who wonders whether Lupin doesn't have some skill in Legilimency, based upon those looks he's sometimes given and the feeling Harry's gotten more than once that Lupin was reading his mind. Yet Boggarts do take a shape for Lupin. So, while you could be right -- and I think it's an excellent note of the similarity between how a Boggart works & how Legilimency works -- I'm not quite convinced. For me the interesting question is, assuming you're wrong and that wizards or witches skilled at Occlumency *do* still see their greatest fear, WHAT WOULD VOLDY SEE? Would he see DD? Would he see some manifestation of death? Would he see Harry? Siriusly Snapey Susan From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 14:55:43 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:55:43 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: I'm going to burn my third post of the day here... > JLV: > I'm afraid this view is definitely logically impossible. If time > went one way first, then Harry and Hermione went back and changed > it, the new events would effectivly 'erase' the old ones, as you > say, so Harry and Hermione could possibly *never* go back to change I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS saved by a time-traveling Harry, when Harry didn't get the opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the dementors. He was about to be killed, and if he had been killed, he never would have had the opportunity to go back in time. It is only after he went back in time and saved himself, that that version of events became the one-and-only version of events that everyone knows of and remembers. I just don't see how you can ignore this and just happily accept that he ALWAYS was there to save himself. That is only the perception left in everyone's minds as a result of the time- travel. As JKR presents the risks of time-travel, I think she makes it clear that the past CAN be interfered with. Otherwise, there is no risk of encountering your past-self if you have no memory of already doing so when you were your past self. The moment that you do something that alters the course of events, it erases any memory of how things had occurred the first time around, so although you are ACTUALLY causing events, you only THINK that you are participating in events that already happened. Heck, this basically means that if you go back to fix a problem, after having fixed the problem, you're going to say "Wait, this is how it always happened - so why did I have to go back in time in the first place? Huh, I guess that it didn't happen this way the first time... weird." (This is sort of like the scene in Quantum Leap where we learn that Sam has saved Jackie Kennedy's life, but didn't realize it because to him, that's how it always happened.) Consider this: TT-H&H are watching normal H&H walking in a field. Hermione says "don't interfere." But Harry has no memory of seeing himself as a time-traveler, so he thinks there is no risk. So he runs out into the field screaming like a banshee. IMMEDIATELY TT-Harry only remembers seeing the events that he is now causing, back when he was normal-Harry, who is now watching himself screaming. As every moment goes by, the events occurring become the only timeline anyone ever knew. But this doesn't change the fact that we, as omniscient observers to the entire situation, are aware that things were different before the time traveling took place. Perhaps that is the disconnect here: everyone else is describing events as they are understood within the Potterverse, whereas I am complaining that we, as outside observers, are left out of the series of events that were not tampered with. - davenclaw From buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 16:31:02 2005 From: buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com (buckbeak1391) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:31:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132111 > Finwitch: > > Yes, well - I think Hagrid had tamed him a bit. Draco straight out > insulted Buckbeak, and got away with a scratch! (I think a wild > Hippogriff would have killed him). > Actually, in PoA, hardback US version, ch.6 pg. 118, it says that "Hagrid was wrestling Buckbeak back into his collar as he strained to get at Malfoy..." I have no doubt that Buckbeak would have killed Malfoy, given the chance. Buckbeak From ramyamicro at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 16:49:08 2005 From: ramyamicro at yahoo.com (Ramya) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:49:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132112 > Subhash Sane wrote: > > Boggart > > penetrates the mind of his client and immediately gains the > > knowledge of `HIS/HER FEAR'. And after that, it takes the shape of that fear. > SSSusan: > This certainly makes SENSE -- that is, that the way a Boggart works > is by some mechanism similar to Legilimency. I think the Boggart can sense the innermost fears of the person stand in front of it, much like the Dementor can suck out the happiest memories. Neither has to work on the mind of its victim- rather, it works something like an emotion-sensor which is tuned in to a particular wavelength. I though at first that Voldemort would see Dumbledore, since he is the only one he ever feared. However, Voldy's greatest fear is death- so I am guessing he will see his own corpse. Hmm...what funny thing will he think of to make it vanish, though?- seeing himself 'finally' killing Harry? Rams From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 17:03:34 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:03:34 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132113 SSSusan wrote: This certainly makes SENSE -- that is, that the way a Boggart works is by some mechanism similar to Legilimency. But still, I'm wondering whether we can make this assumptive leap. It may be something *similar* to the effect of Legilimency, but IS it actually a form of Legilimency? And even if it is something related, do we know that Occlumency would work to stop it? I'm not convinced it works that way. In fact, I think a Boggart "works" on everyone it "sees." (Heck, we don't even know that it DIDN'T turn into whatever Moody's boggarts always turn into, do we? [Away from books -- could be wrong!]) I'm one of those who wonders whether Lupin doesn't have some skill in Legilimency, based upon those looks he's sometimes given and the feeling Harry's gotten more than once that Lupin was reading his mind. Yet Boggarts do take a shape for Lupin. So, while you could be right -- and I think it's an excellent note of the similarity between how a Boggart works & how Legilimency works -- I'm not quite convinced. For me the interesting question is, assuming you're wrong and that wizards or witches skilled at Occlumency *do* still see their greatest fear, WHAT WOULD VOLDY SEE? Would he see DD? Would he see some manifestation of death? Would he see Harry? vmonte responds: I agree with SSSusan. I think that a Boggart will work on everyone (except on those that do not have fears--it's a small number of people for sure). Voldemort and his DEs are definitely a group of people with many fears! And I don't think that legilimency skills will block a Boggart from shape-shifting. If anyone gets to see a Boggart in their true form it will eventually be Harry, who may overcome his fears in the end. vmonte From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 17:14:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:14:45 -0000 Subject: Question1 - Godrics Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132114 What happened at Godric's Hollow is key to the whole series. We know that much from JKR herself. The way the books are written, this means for us to find out, someone has to tell us. But who? Brothergib wrote: 1. Dumbledore - Everything so far indicates that DD really is not exactly sure what happened at Godric's hollow, and why it is that Voldemort failed. Surely it has to be someone who was actually there. So who was there?? 2. Voldemort - LV could tell Harry what happened, or Harry could even get into LVs head and see for himself. PROBLEM - LV doesn't seem to know what happened or why would he be searching for the prophecy 3. Severus Snape?? - We don't know if he was there or not. But he knew all the Death Eater's secrets + all the Orders secrets, so is in a unique position to understand the events at Godric's Hollow. PROBLEM - If he know's why hasn't he told DD?? 4. Lily (Sirius' mirror) - IS the whole reason for Sirius' death, so that he can track down Lily's spirit, and then relay what happened to Harry via the mirror. Definitely my favourite!!!!!!!! vmonte responds: JKR will probably tell us what happened at GH in this next book. I'm pretty sure she mentioned somewhere that it was time for her to reveal some of her secrets. I'm betting that Snape was there...and he probably told DD an incomplete version of the events... I think that Harry and gang are going to use Sirius's mirror. Now that it's in several pieces it will make a great "walkie talkie" if the kids are separated. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 17:19:43 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:19:43 -0000 Subject: Draco an underdog? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132115 Alla wrote: I think I have an aswer, even though I am not sure if you find it to be to your satisfaction. :-) I know that book says that Harry wins because of the better broom , but I think the implied reason is not this one. Here again we are going back to honorable intentions. Harry left his position to help his team, while Draco was concerned only about glory for himself ( speculating here of course) I think JKR views Harry's intentions as more honorable here, therefore it does seem OK ( for me at least) to imply that Harry wins because his broom is better. vmonte responds: I agree with Alla. It's pretty obvious in the grand scheme of things that JKR does not consider Draco to be honorable nor does she see him, or his family, to be of much worth. Period! vmonte From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 17:52:29 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:52:29 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - death interpretations of Grim Reaper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132116 > SSSusan: > Would he see some manifestation of death? Chys: I've been wondering about this from another perspective, wouldn't as we know how the 'muggle' world works, the usual interpretation of death show up as something like the grim reaper, or a dementor without a scythe? For Molly she was afraid of all the people she loved being killed, so the boggart took a form of their corpses. This isn't a good example for fear of 'death', or one's own death but I can understand seeing your own corpse, but shouldn't it take more of a 'spiritual' form or something to that extent, since you KNOW you're not dead? You can't really See your self being dead, unless a mirror were involved, but you'd be dead so what would you see? (...ah, rats. You get what I mean. *cringes*) An interpretation of death, as something you grew up with, so if Harry and Voldie are raised by muggles, they would recognize the grim reaper and it's other forms, even if in passing, so did Harry ever relate the Dementor to the grim reaper? Would LV do so? Chys From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:18:50 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:18:50 -0000 Subject: FILK: Where now is Trevor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132117 I got a request offlist asking if "someone would do something with It's Now or Never by Elvis". So I did something. Where Now is Trevor? To the tune of "It's Now or Never" by Elvis Neville, as a first year, has alighted from the Hogwarts Express and is waiting to embark on the journey across the lake. Unable to find his toad, he sings: CHORUS: Where now is Trevor? I held him tight. But with a wiggle, He took to flight. My Uncle will be irate. Where now is Trevor? This boat won't wait. When I first got him, Just a tad so tender I was protector; His sole defender. But day or night time Is his take-to-flight-time. Wish he was here, Would disappear no more. CHORUS We cross this minute A lake like an ocean, But I lost Trevor And made commotion. Oh, I just must find you, And let me remind you, Christmas is when I'll pass again this way. CHORUS Ginger, hoping the List Elvis like it too. Oh, wait, that's Elves. Never mind. From frugalarugala at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 18:33:48 2005 From: frugalarugala at yahoo.com (frugalarugala) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:33:48 -0000 Subject: the elder Nott and wizard longevity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132118 I don't have access to my books at the moment, so... Does it actually say in them that the Death Eater Nott, who's described as "elderly" is the father of Theo Nott? Or are we, and/or Harry, just assuming? I was thinking with the longevity of magical charactors in the books, to be "elderly" that might be considerably older than even Voldemort. More a peer of Dumbledore's. Theo Nott might be his grandson or great- grandson, or great-great-grandson, if a direct decended at all. Just an idle thought... --Frugalarugala, the cheap salad ingredient From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 12:26:41 2005 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706122642.80489.qmail@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132119 --- tania_schr wrote: This is the question: Does the WW believe > in God? He asks > this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner > and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to > church or anything > like that. Any thoughts? > > Tania I think the problem with religion is which one? (No, I do not want an answer). For my discussion, I will ignoring denomonations unless I specify. In the USA and Europe, there has been a marked decrease in the number of people who are religious. In other parts of the world, the opposite is true. While obviously flying broom, carpets and wambats would all be hidden from the non-wizarding public, I think the lesser magics would be used. In Africa, traditional religions are still practiced heavily even when Christianity has been imposed. Witch doctors and regular doctors use their own magic to help diagnose and heal patients. In fantasy, why would the wizarding portions of the African people cut themselves off? It doesn't take a stretch to beleive witch doctors may just be witchs or wizards. In Asia, especially the the more remote areas, they still practice native religions and medicine. The same as was in Africa rings true in Asia. The kink I see in Asia is the prevalence of Buddism. As a Buddist myself, I do not see how practicing fantasy magic is compatable to the extent used in books, so we shall leave that go. South America, Eastern Europe and Northern Asia all have real witches and magic infused into their culture. I do not beleive that wizards would hide in those parts of the world. The middle east still seems to be a hot spot for magic. One of the Weasleys mentioned in PoA that the old Egyptian wizards were good (paraphrasing). It is well documented in Egyptology that magic was used in every aspect of Egyptian life. Even today, bizarres sell all types of oddities such as monkey paws, snake skins and all types of plants, just like the fictional Knockturn Alley. Even the Koran does not regect magic so much as it places emphasis on worship of Allah. Creating a healing potion with prayer is still accepted as good medicine. It seems, in reality, that only the highly industrialized countries of the world reject magic. Science has eliminated the use of magic, even though certain things cannot be explained. It would make sense that a population that relied on the unexplained would pull away. The 1000 years ago that Hogwarts was built, magic folk and non-magic folk still mixed. The pull happened later, as evidence from the mythical fight between Gryffindor and Slytherin. Merlin and Magic were still accepted as normal in the times he lived (modern texts suggest anywhere from 800CE to 1250CE). I beleive it was Christianity's unrelenting view of magic and women that drove the wizarding world underground during the Crusade era of 1100CE to 1400CE. 'Infidels, Heathens and Alchemist' were the ones to be put to death (Alchemy comming from the word Al Kemi which was the arabic word for Egypt and thus, magic). The celebration of Christmas and Easter would be critical of anyone living near non-wizarding people due to the cries of heresy during the Dark Ages. Those that did not go to church were labeled devil worshipers and often tortured until a confession was made and then driven from their towns. Very rarely was anyone burned or hanged (though the numbers get high after several hundred years of 3-5 a year per country). I would beleive that there would have been witchs and wizard that regected their magical upbringing in favor of keeping in line with the Christian Church. Also, by the ghosts of nuns, friars and the elusive St. Mungo, it can be assumed that there were memebers of the wizarding world highly involved with Christianity. In conclusion, the role of religion would have played out in the same manner for wizards as non-wizards. As a religion ascends, the people around it are forced into following it. As a religion decends, people drift away, keeping only the fuzzy good parts, like Christmas and Easter for the presents and candy. Mezu "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From anurim at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 19:01:58 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706190158.80837.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132120 --- Ramya wrote: > I though at first that Voldemort would see > Dumbledore, since he is > the only one he ever feared. However, Voldy's > greatest fear is death- > so I am guessing he will see his own corpse. > Hmm...what funny thing will he think of to make it > vanish, though?- > seeing himself 'finally' killing Harry? This is a very good question. Is the mere act of laughing, even 'a cold, mirthless laugh', enough to drive the Boggart away, or is a genuinely funny thought necessary? Along the same line of thought, I read somewhere an excellent theory that Voldemort would not be able to produce a patronus, therefore he would be vulnerable to the 'worse than death' fate of being kissed by a Dementor. Might the examiner old enough to remember Dumbledore as a student tell us more about Riddle's DADA abilities? Mira __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 6 18:58:48 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:58:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God in the WW References: <1120607507.1563.11685.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002601c5825c$bf8fc680$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 132121 Tania wrote: > Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my > husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP > series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks > this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything > like that. Any thoughts? It's one of the questions which I think we will never have answered in canon. If JKR says outright that the WW is not Christian, then she will fall foul of those Christians who think that the Potter books are Satanist tracts. If she says that it is, then the question that follows is why wizards do things that are explicitly forbidden in the bible. So my feel is that she'll keep quiet and let people form their own views (there are other questions which I think fall in the same category, like "which of the leading characters are gay?" and "exactly what did the Centaurs do to Umbridge in the forest?") I have two theories. The first one is that wizarding folk relinquished religion very early in history, when they discovered that their abilities were not divinely given, but were inherited. The Muggle world continued in the same manner as our own, and the cross fertilisation accounts for things like Harry having a godfather and the like. The second one is that religion in the Potterverse doesn't have a prohibition on magic anyway... hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 19:07:48 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:07:48 -0000 Subject: Short Note: Sunrise & Sunset - Scotland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132122 Sunrise and Sunset times in Scotland for June 1994 Hope the list elves don't get mad, this is going to be pretty short. Todays (July 6,'05) Sunrise and Sunset for Glasgow http://www.sunrisesunset.com/ Glasgow, Scotland 7:46pm DST Wed 7/6/2005 Sunrise: 4:39am Sunset: 10:02pm Sunrise/Sunset for Aberdeen which is farther north and closer to the likely Latitude of Hogwarts Time and Date http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=305&obj=sun&month=6&year=1994&day=1 Date . . . . . .Sunrise . . Sunset Jun 10, 1994 . .4:15 AM . . 10:01 PM (Friday) Jun 15, 1994 . .4:13 AM . . 10:05 PM (Wednesday) Jun 20, 1994 . .4:12 AM . . 10:08 PM (Monday) Jun 25, 1994 . .4:14 AM . . 10:08 PM (Saturday) Time and Date is a great website, you can create your own personal world Clock. Either a static clock like this http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/custom.html?cities=103,137,75,159,179,136,83,166,771,28,241,102,235,248,240,145 or a Real-Time JAVA Clock. Plus calendar, Time Zone conversion, Daily Planner, Moon Phases, Duration, etc... Hope this helps the discussion. Steve/bboyminn From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 19:33:25 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:33:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: <20050706142853.21508.qmail@web8609.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132123 Subhash Sane wrote: > Hello to all of you. I was surfing the mugglenet and found that one of the questions that was selected in the Ask JKR contest was- What would Boggart turn into if he sees Voldemort? > > Now comes the question of wizards like Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Snape who have mastered Occlumency. If they see a Boggart, they can easily close their minds to him and hence Boggart is confused and is forced to take no shape at all. Hence, Boggart won't take any shape when he will see Voldemort or Dumbledore or Snape. **Marcela now: While I like to agree with you Occlumency and Boggart theory, it doesn't in reality answer to the question of "what's Voldemort's boggart?", i.e. boggart=fear. Your theory just tells us that Voldy can block the boggart's Legilimency skills. This is what I think Voldy fears most, (this is copy of what I answered in a friend's LJ yesterday, BTW): - Harry's boggart was a Dementor, not Voldie. Why? Because Harry's worst fear is -and we have lots of canon on this- not to die or be killed, but to be sucked into 'Darkness', which is what Dementors represent. Every time Voldie performs a Crucio, his head explodes because of Voldie's feelings of cruel sadism. - Voldie might fear Dumbledore, or he might despise/hate Harry, but he "faced" them, he wasn't completely paralized by them. In the Priori Incantatem chapter in GoF, Voldie was really scared of the Phoenix song and all it brought up (the shadows), which produced exactly the opposite in Harry: he felt Hope coming to the rescue. I think that Voldie's boggart might be something related to Love/Hope/Goodness. Voldie had to flee Harry's body when this one felt so strongly for Sirius. Think of that possession scene: Harry had already wished that DD killed him, he wanted things to end... but Voldie remained in him, until Harry thought of Sirius and wanting to be with him because of his love for him... So, I'd say that Voldie is very, very scared of this feeling. Now, as for the Boggart's shape... I dunno... maybe a Phoenix? Marcela From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 19:35:20 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:35:20 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132124 There is something that bothers me about Snape (well one of several things really). He is suppose to be great at legilimency, meaning that he can close his mind from others. This is an important skill if he is working undercover against Voldemort or Dumbledore; but, does this also mean that he is capable of reading the minds of others? I don't think so. ___________________________________ GoF, pg 517, sch "It is Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear," said Snape viciously. "Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand slips" - he shook the crystal bottle slightly _ "right over your evening pumpkin juice. And then Potter ... then we'll find out whether you've been in my office or not." __________________________________ Why would Snape need to use truth serum to read Harry's mind if he is a great mind reader? And did he read Moody's mind during GoF? _________________________________________ GoF, pg 472-474, sch "Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" "'Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. "He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what I mean?" Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt him. Moody laughed. "Get back to bed, Snape." "You don't have the authority to send me anywhere!" Snape hissed, letting go of his arm as though angry with himself. "I have as much right to prowl this school after dark as you do!" "Prowl away," said Moody, but his voice was full of menace. "I look forward to meeting you in a dark corridor some time.... ... "Potter!" Snape snarled, and he actually turned his head and stared right at the place where Harry was, as though he could suddenly see him. "That egg is Potter's egg. That piece of parchment belongs to Potter. I have seen it before, I recognize it! Potter is here! Potter, in his Invisibility Cloak!" Snape stretched out his hands like a blind man and began to move up the stairs; Harry could have sworn his over-large nostrils were dilating, trying to sniff Harry out - trapped, Harry leaned backward, trying to avoid Snape's fingertips, but any moment now - "There's nothing there, Snape!" barked Moody, "but I'll be happy to tell the headmaster how quickly your mind jumped to Harry Potter!" "Meaning what?" Snape turned again to look at Moody, his hands still outstretched, inches from Harry's chest. "Meaning that Dumbledore's very interested to know who's got it in for that boy!" said Moody, limping nearer still to the foot of the stairs. And so am I, Snape ... very interested...." The torchlight flickered across his mangled face, so that the scars, and the chunk missing from his nose, looked deeper and darker than ever. Snape was looking down at Moody, and Harry couldn't see the expression on his face. For a moment, nobody moved or said anything. Then Snape slowly lowered his hands. "I merely thought," said Snape, in a voice of forced calm, "that if Potter was wandering around after hours again ... it's an unfortunate habit of his ... he should be stopped. For - his own safety." "Ah, I see," said Moody softly. "Got Potter's best interests at heart, have you?" There was a pause. Snape and Moody were still staring at each other. ... "I think I will go back to bed," Snape said curtly. "Best idea you've had all night," said Moody. _________________________________________________________ It's obvious that Snape was in no way threatened by FakeMoody during this conversation until FakeMoody threatened to tell DD about Snape's true intentions towards Harry. Why did Snape back off? Is he really afraid that Moody will tell DD about his true intentions towards Harry? Or is it something else? Did Snape realize who FakeMoody was? If so, why didn't he tell DD? Is it possible that FakeMoody knows that Snape is out for himself and not with Voldemort or DD? And what does Crouch Jr. know about Snape that DD would want to know? I've mentioned this before but what if... Snape and Crouch Jr. were both at Neville's parents house when they were tortured into insanity? Did Snape believe that Neville (a pureblood) was the "chosen one" of the prophecy, and not "mudblood" Harry. If so, this would mean that Snape was working against the Order after he supposedly switched sides. (DD knows a lot of things, but he does not know what happened at GH or during the Longbottom attack. It makes me wonder who does know...) I'm also uncomfortable with the way Snape treats Harry to truely believe that he cares in anyway for Harry's safety. If anything, I think that Snape hates Harry but needs Harry to do something for him. (Something that Snape cannot do? Defeat Voldemort perhaps?--not for the Order but because Snape is somehow still enslaved by Voldemort?) So, why is Snape always trying to get Harry expelled? Is it because Snape cannot use Harry for his own purposes while Harry is still at school? vmonte From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 20:04:39 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:04:39 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132125 Davenclaw wrote: "I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS saved by a time-traveling Harry, when Harry didn't get the opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the dementors." Del replies: I really don't understand what bothers you in this... The only thing that matters is that Harry WAS saved. By whom is *irrelevant* to Normal!Harry (well, technically, I mean). Whether it's someone living their own life normally, a time traveler from the future, a time traveler from the past, or an alien from the other side of the universe is *irrelevant*. All that matters is that Harry is saved, and can then Time-Turn. And then, oh surprise, it turns out it was himself who saved him. So what??? Tell me: would you have a problem if it were TT!Hermione who had saved Harry instead of TT!Harry? Davenclaw wrote: "Perhaps that is the disconnect here: everyone else is describing events as they are understood within the Potterverse, whereas I am complaining that we, as outside observers, are left out of the series of events that were not tampered with." Del replies: Nah :-) The disconnect comes from the fact that there IS such a series of events for you, while there is NO such series of events for us. There was NEVER any series of events that were not tampered with, for us, because the events were always tampered with, because H&H always time-turned. What we accept and you don't is that the present CAN be modified RIGHT NOW by what WILL happen in the future and that will influence the PAST. By time-turning in the future, H&H have landed in the past. They are here right now. The action of turning the hourglass will take place in the future, but the result took place in the past. They LEAVE in the future but they ARRIVE in the past. The consequence comes before the cause, which means that any argument based on "the cause must come before the consequence" (as in "Harry must first time-turn before he can save himself") becomes extremely tricky. Especially since "Harry time-turns" is NOT a DISCRETE event. It takes place in 2 places in time at the same time. "Harry leaves" takes place in the future, but "Harry arrives" takes place in the past. So which event are you talking about when you say "Harry must first time-turn"? The future one or the past one? They are BOTH part of "Harry time-turns"... Have another headachy night ;-) (not!) Del From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Jul 6 20:12:59 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:12:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR dislike writing about Quidditch matches? (long) Message-ID: <45.2b9346b5.2ffd954b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132126 In a message dated 7/6/2005 6:32:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, natti_shafer at yahoo.com writes: >It seems to me that Jo has decided that she MUST write in great >detail about all of Harry's matches, and yet she doesn't enjoy doing >it. I think it would have been perfectly acceptable for her to give >much more brief descriptions of the quidditch matches and therefore >better maintained credibility. I have not yet seen a plausible >reason as to why Quidditch couldn't be played during the Triwizard >Tournament. I think the real answer to that Frequently Asked >Question is that Jo didn't want to write about three more matches >that book. >Thoughts? >-Nathaniel It could be that Jo is tired of writing about the matches, it could also be that she thinks we might be tired of hearing about them over and over again.. I for one am glad that through the course of seven books we didn't have to listen to the play by play of 21 matches. Even good things can be over done. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 20:23:39 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:23:39 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > There is something that bothers me about Snape (well one of several > things really). He is suppose to be great at legilimency, meaning > that he can close his mind from others. This is an important skill > if he is working undercover against Voldemort or Dumbledore; but, > does this also mean that he is capable of reading the minds of > others? > I don't think so. bboyminn: Actually, Occlumency is the ability to block you mind from intrusion. Legilimency is the ability to 'intrude' into other people's mind. The problem is that much of fandom has made assumptions about these things that aren't supported by the books. Many fans take them to be one and the same, but, of course, they are not. Some fans have leap to the conclusion that if you have one then you automatically have the other; again, not true, not supported by the books. Snape has the ability to block his mind, to close it to examination by intruders, that doesn't mean he is especially skilled at Legilimency. In fact, in the Occlumency lessons with Harry, Snape does not use the /skill/ of Legilimency at all, instead, he uses the Legilimens /Spell/. That implies he probably doesn't have more than a very basic passing ability in Legilimency, if he has any skill at all. > Vmonte: > ___________________________________ > > GoF, pg 517, sch > "It is Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops > would have you spilling your innermost secrets .... watch > your step, you might just find that my hand slips" - he shook the > crystal bottle slightly _ "right over your evening pumpkin juice.... > __________________________________ > > Why would Snape need to use truth serum to read Harry's mind if he > is a great mind reader? And did he read Moody's mind during GoF? bboyminn: Snape doesn't need the truth serum to probe Harry's mind, he needs it to threaten, bully, and intimidate Harry. A reminder again, that Snape can /block/ his mind, but we have no evidence that he is especially gifted at Legilimency. Which should answer your question about Fake!Moody and Snape. > Vmonte: > > ...edited... > > So, why is Snape always trying to get Harry expelled? Is it because > Snape cannot use Harry for his own purposes while Harry is still at > school? > > vmonte bboyminn: I think Snape's efforts to get Harry expelled are not with the intent of truly getting Harry expelled, but with the intent of bullying and intimidating Harry. This is Snape's way of keeping Harry for getting too full of himself, keeping him in his place. Snape knows he is able to go to extremes in this, because he knows Dumbledore is there to balance things off. Beside, in nearly all schools, threats of expulsion are just that threats. Thousands of students are threatened with expulsion, but it only happens to an extremely small number. So for all his bluster and efforts against Harry, Snape has virtual zero chance of getting Harry expelled. It would take an extremely extreme act for actual expulsion to occur. It took the death of a student to get Hargid expelled. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 6 20:27:11 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:27:11 -0000 Subject: God in the WW/Draco as underdog/Alchemist Theory in Two Acts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132128 In message 132050, Tania wrote about "God in the WW": "kay, I have a question about the WW in general. Actually, it is my husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he finds with the HP series. This is the question: Does the WW believe in God? He asks this because they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything like that. Any thoughts?" Geoff: I think my first comment would be similar to one previously mentioned in that the Wizarding World echoes the modern world, at least in the UK, in that many people do not attend church and, sadly, view it as an irrelevance. But, again, how many books do you read which specifically mention churchgoing? To be flippant, someone recently remarked that we never saw Harry going to the bathroom ? how does he stay clean? How many stories dwell on the hero taking a bath or going to the toilet? Speaking seriously though as a Christian, I have commented on numerous occasions that you can see the presence of the writer's commitment even if it isn't overt. Tolkien's faith shows in the way in which his sub-creation works; we hear occasionally of Eru or The One. Similarly with JKR. We see from the way her world works, how right and wrong are viewed in it and. as a result, something of her feeling about faith. +++++++++++++ Geoff: I feel, that in this matter of Draco as the underdog ? generally speaking ? that we cannot assume that everything Harry does is honourable (if that is the word that fits) and that everything that Draco does is despicable; and I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool Harry supporter. I have suggested in the past that, except perhaps in the instances of facing up to Voldemort, Harry generally seems to be in the better position that Draco. Even so, the fact is that they both engage in activity on occasions which is questionable - or downright rotten. One of the things that I like about JKR's writing is that she paints her heroes (and villains) as having flaws. As a young person, I used to hate the sort of children's book where the heroes were terribly goody-goody and never put a foot wrong ? Enid Blyton's characters often fall into this category. I want characters to be like me. I can remember doing things in my teens, sometimes in anger and sometimes by calculation, which I much prefer to forget about in hindsight and consign to the dustbin of personal history. Both Harry and, possibly more so, Draco have had moments like this. Harry joins in the attack on Draco after the Quidditch match; he looks into Snape's Pensieve; he smashes up Dumbledore's office. But these balance out against the positive things he does as a relatively normal growing teenager. With Draco, the balance is perhaps the other way some of it perhaps coming from the frustration of not being able to best Harry at situations where he wants to be top dog. +++++++++++++ In message 131975, Tinglinger wrote in the thread about "Major, Major Spoiler, the Alchemist Theory in Two Acts": "Dumbledore feeds Harry the Elixir EXPRESSLY to lure Voldemort to Godric's Hollow at a time when Harry is temporarily immortal due to the elixir of life. Voldemort goes to Godric's Hollow and uses the AK spell on Harry, but it does not work because though unstoppable, IT CANNOT KILL A HUMAN WHO IS IMMORTAL, even if only temporarily so. So what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object? The force rebound back to it's caster with disasterous results. Then, after Voldemort's body is destroyed, the Elixir wears off and Harry goes back to being The Boy Who Lived, and nothing more......." and later in the post: "BECAUSE DUMBLEDORE HAS DONE IT ALL BEFORE AND SUCCEEDED..... almost. When? in his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945. Huh? Howzzzat? How The Dark Wizard Grindelwald was Defeated --------------------------------------------- Remember, Tom Riddle was in his final year at Hogwarts in 1945. He is a Slytherin - only concerned about himself. Bright, but flawed, an orphan with no family. Brilliant, but starting to lean to the dark side, capable of ruining the career of a fellow student (Hagrid) just so that he won't have to return to the orphanage. He wanted an edge. And Dumbledore had this plan........ He approached Tom Riddle and says "How would you like to live forever?" Riddle goes "Sure, but what's the catch?" "You must drink the Elixir of Life that I and my partner have produced from the Sorcerer's Stone. That will give you immortality. Then you must face this dark wizard Grindelwald, who will try to kill you with an Avada Kedavara spell. But don't worry! You can't die because the Avada Kedavera spell cannot work on an immortal! And guess what YOU will become after you drink the Elixir of Life!" "Oh," continued Dumbledore. "Don't worry - I'll be right behind you if something goes wrong. You won't see me because I will be invisible, but I WILL be there..." Riddle was stunned, but like all Slytherins, clearly sees what is in it for him, and agreed. Dumbledore figured that either way he can't lose. He can get rid of Grindelwald if the plan works, or if it doesn't and Riddle dies, his only loss would be a student with no morals or ethics who would turn bad eventually anyway...... To win a war, sacrifice a pawn....." Geoff: I have serious reservations about this theory on two counts. First, it is suggested that if a person takes the Elixir, it would grant "temporary" immortality at least until another dose was required. If that were the case, why didn't Dumbledore organise taking some for himself and tackling Grindelwald and Voldemort personally? It would have been simpler than the suggested scenario that Harry was given some as a baby and a false prophecy was created to lure Voldemort to Godric's Hollow. It also doesn't explain the ambiguity about which child was meant ? Harry or Neville. Dumbledore could have created a false prophecy to be "leaked" stating that the person with the possible power to defeat Voldemort was Dumbledore himself. This could have drawn out Voldemort into the open. Avada Kedavra fired off and "Pow" - vaporised Dark Lord. In Grindelwald's case he could have set up a similar kind of arrangement. This would have avoided the convoluted scheme of things suggested in this thread which has the usual complications of conspiracy theories. I view these with a measure of distrust having seen the mind-boggling ideas which have surrounded, for example, the assassination of Kennedy in 1963 and the car crash which killed Princess Diana in 1997. My second reservation hinges on the fact that JKR started writing her books as books about children and mainly for children. The first two books are certainly fit that pattern although they become darker and more serious as they progress. I believe that, if JKR was using a plot line such as is suggested here, that many of her younger readers would just not understand what was going on; they would be left in the dark. Additionally, in the earlier books, Dumbledore was certainly portrayed as someone to whom Harry could look up to, a wise adult who would guide him and advise him. True, as we grow up through adolescence, we often find that our mentors have feet of clay and are not as omniscient as we thought as children, but to suggest that Dumbledore is really an evil, Machiavellian manipulator would send a whole raft of wrong messages to young readers. In the real world, we see far too many children being mistreated and abused by those who should be looking out for them; for this to happen in the books, especially where the person concerned is the Headmaster with the responsibility for so many young people would be a highly dangerous scenario to place before a young readership. Geoff (who still is having trouble believing that London got the 2012 Games) From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:23:48 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:23:48 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's Snare (was:Mild TBAY, trying to answer JK's Edinburgh questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think > about: > > "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I > should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't > Voldemort die?" Not, "Why did Harry live?" but, "Why didn't Voldemort > die?" The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn't > he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps > that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he > did to make sure that he did not die? but you should be asking > yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the > prophesy." (For the full interview go to > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrebf and select the Edinburgh interview at > the bottom of the page.) > > So that's what I've been thinking about. Now Janeway: So have I! I like everything that Saraquel said, and admire her restrained and logical analysis, but I've also come up with a more speculative (but I hope still logical) theory that I hereby offer up for your consumption: Maybe the reason LV survived the rebounding AK curse is related to the fact that he's the last surviving descendant of Salazar Slytherin. SS was invested in the idea of the superiority of certain blood lines, which logically would have included his own. So he probably wouldn't be too happy if his line died out. He even put a chamber and a monster at Hogwarts to help out his future heir(s). So maybe he also provided some kind of time-persistent magical protection for his last surviving descendant in case his line was ever in danger of disappearing completely. This could have been something he left behind in the chamber (potion? instructions? basilisk?) or some kind of charm or other magic he performed himself that would work across time on his descendant. We know that Slytherin wanted to "purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (COS 151 US paper) Maybe he had similar plans for the entire WW --"cleansing" it of impure types and putting pure-bloods in charge ? with the ultimate goal of Slytherins (his own descendants, not just graduates of his house) ruling the WW. This is only speculation, but it's based on Tom Riddle's actions after opening the Chamber When TR discovered his ancestry and opened the Chamber, he started calling himself "Lord," set the basilisk loose on mudbloods, and eventually pursued immortality and tried to take over the WW. Perhaps this was all part of a grand plan by SS. He left behind his ideas, a strategy to restore purebloods to power, and information and/or materials that LV needed in order to take "steps to guard myself against mortal death" (GOF p648 US paper) to make sure that there would always be a direct descendant of SS around to rule the WW. My guess is that the quest for immortality required LV to develop his natural affinity for snakes to some extreme degree. Snakes are associated with eternal life in Eastern cultures* (shedding skin is like being "reborn"). Snakes are the Slytherin house animal, Parseltongue (snake language) is a trait associated with SS's genetic descendants, a basilisk is the monster SS left behind. And now LV looks like a snake (numerous references, but eg. GOF 643 US paper); he finds it easiest to possess snakes (GOF 654 US paper); he has a snake familiar (Nagini); and when he possesses Harry, Harry feels he is "locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes" a snake? (OOP 815 US hardcover). So there is a clear connection between Slytherin, snakes, immortality, and LV. Did Tom Riddle shed his "human" skin and become a semi-human snake as LV? Is this why he needed snake venom to stay alive before he was reborn? It's possible that whatever this protection from Slytherin was, it may have also caused the transfer of power from LV to Harry. Harry's growing internal awareness of LV is associated numerous times in OOP with snake qualities: he feels he "a dormant snake had risen in him" (OOP 828 US hardcover); he feels anger "like venom" in his veins (OOP 535 US hardcover); he feels "like there's a snake inside me" (OOP 481 US hardcover), etc. So the connection between Slytherin, snakes, immortality, and LV is also extended to Harry. I can't say exactly what the mechanism is, but it seems possible that the transfer of power to Harry may have involved a splitting of LV's snake nature, with part surviving as LV and part going into Harry (maybe literally through the cut in his head that turned into his scar?). Thus the twining smoke serpents and the "in essence divided" comment by Dumbledore. Yucky thought: what if the snake is literally growing inside of Harry and will eventually try to shed its Harry "skin"? Then Snake!Harry would emerge as something like LV. (This would explain something I've wondered about: Why does DD say " suffering like this proves you are still a man!" (OOP p824 US hardcover). Why doesn't he just say it "proves you are a man/human." Does "still" imply that someday he may not be?) I could go on with these ravings, but I'll stop here and await your comments.. or lack thereof! (If this idea has already been discussed, would love to read the previous posts.) Janeway *"The snake has long been a symbol of immortality because it constantly renews itself and is reborn as it sheds its skin. In the shade, the lethargic snake looks dead, yet it comes back to life in the sun. From the Indian subcontinent to the Mediterranean basin, a coiled snake has come to represent the navel of the universe. Similarly, a snake swallowing its tail is a common symbol of eternity, an "endless cycle of life and death" (Nissenson and Jonas 20)." http://f99.middlebury.edu/FS013A/cleopat ra_by_schieffelin.htm From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 20:57:35 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:57:35 -0000 Subject: God in the WW/Draco as underdog/Alchemist Theory in Two Acts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132130 > Geoff: > I feel, that in this matter of Draco as the underdog ? generally > speaking ? that we cannot assume that everything Harry does is > honourable (if that is the word that fits) and that everything that > Draco does is despicable; and I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool Harry > supporter. Alla: Please believe me when I say it. :-) Though I AM a dyed-in-the-wool Harry supporter, even by adopting neutral POV, I think that Harry does more honorable things than Draco and that Draco does more despicable things than Harry in general. I just don't think that their antagonism can be explained by school boys rivalry only, otherwise by switching POV we would have been able to see Draco as good guy and Harry as bad guy. Geoff: Even so, the fact is that they both engage in > activity on occasions which is questionable - or downright rotten Alla: Questionable - absolutely. Downright rotten - I am not so sure about. Geoff: Harry joins in the attack > on Draco after the Quidditch match; he looks into Snape's Pensieve; > he smashes up Dumbledore's office. Alla: The key difference between them to me is intent . Draco's bad actions all come from desire to hurt the other people . You know, calling Hermione names, spitting death threats in GoF, etc. Those actions of Harry you cited were caused by : responding to what Draco did, curiosity, and the fact that Harry was in pain. Now, again, I am not arguing that Harry is a saint, of course not, but I cannot concede that they both have equal amount of flaws. I just don't see it. Just my opinion, Alla. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 6 21:09:50 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:09:50 -0000 Subject: Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again? In-Reply-To: <00e401c57df0$92e6f600$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > I know I will sound like a broken record, because i say this every time, but i just want to add to Alla's last comment. > > JKR has stated that a person's animagus form is a reflection of his/her personality. Sirius' form is a dog. I'm sorry to say this again, but a dog is incapable of disloyalty to its pack, especially its pack leader. There is no way Sirius would have betrayed James. He would have died rather than do so. {snip} Demetra: I, for one, am glad that you posted on this subject again. I have a comment and a question. I have also read some articles where dog behaviors are evaluated as pack-like. The dog sees it's humans as pack mates. But the animal behaviorists that I have read don't describe the dog behavior as loyalty, but rather as resistance to any disruption of the pack order. For instance, a dog who barks at a stranger isn't protecting you, he's basically saying "Hey, you're my alpha ? take care of this threat like you're supposed to." They theorize that dogs will do anything they can to maintain the social order of the pack. Hmm.....I'm going to have to go back and update my Sirius didn't like Snape's budding friendship with Lupin (and disruption of the pack) theory regarding the Prank. My question to other listees regarding this premise is this: If Sirius is meant to be seen in a positive light because his animagus form is associated with positive traits, what are we supposed to think about McGonnagall? Should we be wary of her because her animagus form is a cat? When I think of a cat's traits I think of things like ? sneaky, solitary, self-centered. After all, JKR admits on her website that she is not overly fond of cats. What do others think? Demetra From jonathan at techtobiz.com Wed Jul 6 21:15:58 2005 From: jonathan at techtobiz.com (Jonathan House) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:15:58 -0600 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <1120680834.3263.35517.m26@yahoogroups.com> References: <1120680834.3263.35517.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42CC4A0E.1050901@techtobiz.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132132 From: "davenclaw" > >Perhaps that is the disconnect here: everyone else is describing >events as they are understood within the Potterverse, whereas I am >complaining that we, as outside observers, are left out of the >series of events that were not tampered with. Jonathan: In order for your statement to be correct, you have to prove that there were an original series of events that were different at some point in the history of that universe. There is nothing in PoA that confirms that more than one set of events had occurred: Dumbledore's statement about saving more than one innocent life - He never said that Buckbeak was indeed dead. Harry, Ron & Hermione's reaction to Buckbeak's "execution" - All they heard was the chunk of an axe, followed by Hagrid's wailing. They did not see buckbeak die, nor did they hear exactly what Hagrid was going on about. You'll never be able to prove that your interpretation of the story time travel is correct, because you don't have any facts that definitely indicate that a separate set of events occurred. And the camp of "one timeline, multiple H&H" doesn't have anything that proves conclusively that they are right. All we can go on is the story line, which strongly hints that the "one timeline" camp is how things happened. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 21:34:08 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:34:08 -0000 Subject: Does JKR dislike writing about Quidditch matches? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132133 Nathaniel wrote: Throughout the five books JKR takes great pains to describe in excruciating detail every moment of the Quidditch matches -- as long as Harry is playing. It seems to be a decision that Jo made early and then soon regretted. Throughout the books she seems to take great pains in order to keep Harry from actually participating in these Quidditch matches. vmonte responds: I like what another poster on this site wrote about the Quidditch matches. I'm adding her post below: Vivian ______________________________________________ Debbie wrote: A couple of caveats: The citations are a bit thin, since I began writing it without access to the books. The primary references are: PS/SS Slytherin match (ch. 11); Hufflepuff match (ch. 13); CoS Slytherin match (ch. 10); PoA Hufflepuff match (ch. 9); PoA Ravenclaw match (ch. 13); PoA Slytherin match (ch. 15); QWC (GoF ch. 8). Oliver Wood's initial description of Quidditch is in PS/SS ch. 10. Second caveat: I know nothing about literature or literary analysis. I even had to look up "metaphor" in the dictionary. Everything herein is, therefore, just an observation. THE QUIDDITCH METAPHOR: THE ROLE OF QUIDDITCH IN HP What is the function of Quidditch in the books?. JKR has said she included Quidditch in the books "because sport is such an important part of life at school (Scholastic, Oct. 2000). And so it is. The inter-House sports rivalries help set the boarding-school stage and make the atmosphere seem believable. Quidditch also provides a setting for significant plot developments, such as Quirrell's attempt to kill Harry by unseating him from his broom in PS/SS and the appearance of the Dementors in PoA. But it's just a game. Quidditch and the quest for the Quidditch cup often seem to me to be a diversion from the more important things going on in the series. On reflection, however, I think there's a lot more to Quidditch than that. I think JKR has used Quidditch as a metaphor for the struggle against Voldemort and the players' roles in the fight; moreover, the Quidditch sequences appear to foreshadow subsequent events. When you think about it, sport seems an obvious choice for a metaphor. A game or sporting competition *is* an armed conflict of a sort. In fact, here in the US football players are frequently referred to as "weekend warriors." What is significant here, I think, is how carefully JKR appears to have modeled each position and chosen who will play each position to mirror their personalities and/or their possible role in the coming war, and how she has choreographed the matches themselves to foreshadow what happens in the Voldemort struggle. SEEKER This position presents, I think, the most obvious parallel. The Seeker is the most important player on the team. If the Seeker succeeds in catching the Snitch, he/she garners 150 points for the team, vs. only 10 points per goal scored by a Chaser. In addition, because catching the Snitch ends the match, a truly superior Seeker, such as Harry or Viktor Krum, can control when the game ends by choosing whether to go after the Snitch himself or to prevent the opposing Seeker from catching it. It's very rare for a team to win if its Seeker does not catch the Snitch. Oliver Wood sounds like a hyperzealous fanatic when he tells Harry before the CoS Slytherin match, "Get to that Snitch before Malfoy or die trying, Harry, because we've got to win today, we've got to." But he's right: If Gryffindor is to have a chance of winning, Harry had better catch the Snitch. Without Harry, Gryffindor was "steamrollered" by Ravenclaw (PS/SS ch. 17), for their "worst defeat in 300 years" (though this last sounds like hyperbole). The QWC is an anomaly in this respect (as I discuss further below). The best Seekers are also extraordinary athletes. Harry is the first first-year Seeker in a century. Harry has a tremendous gift for Quidditch, but many of the same skills that make him a success at Quidditch - keen observatory skills, the ability to act quickly, physical bravery, and resourcefulness under pressure - are the same skills that allow him to succeed against Voldemort. They also set him apart from the rest of the Quidditch team and from the other students. Though Harry yearns for normality - to be just one of the students who can go enjoy weekend trips to Hogsmeade - he is *not* normal. Harry is special, whether by his extraordinary talent or merely because he is marked for death by Voldemort. It does not matter how much he wants to be a normal teenager. He will be targeted and pursued by Voldemort and therefore will likely be a pivotal figure in that struggle. His only choice is whether to use his gifts and for what purpose. He accepted the opportunity to play Quidditch as a first-year (the first in a century) after being plucked out of the crowd, and he accepts the opportunity to fight against Voldemort despite great personal risk. Moreover, Seeker is the most dangerous position of all. Seekers are the players that are most at risk of being "clobbered by the other team", at least according to Seamus (PS/SS ch. 11), even without Dobby's assistance. Harry has an extraordinary ability to sidestep the Bludgers sent his way on the Quidditch field, as well as the metaphorical Bludgers he encounters - Quirrelmort, the basilisk, Voldemort in the graveyard. He gets help, of course, but in the end he does it by himself. This leads to the next Seeker parallel. The role of a Quidditch Seeker on the team is solitary. Teammates provide support - i.e., Beaters may assist in removing obstacles that may impede the Seeker's search for the Snitch, and the Chasers and Keeper help keep the team in the game by scoring goals and preventing the opponents from scoring. But a Seeker doesn't really interact with the team during play. The Seeker must find and catch the Snitch by himself, just as Harry must face Voldemort alone. So far in the series, of course, though he has had a great deal of help getting there, Harry has faced down each Voldemort threat (Quirrelmort, Diary!Riddle and the graveyard) by himself. But despite being such a solitary role, the best Seeker is a team player. The Seeker should be fully aware of the progress of the game, because catching the Snitch when the team is too far behind will cost the team a victory. Harry exemplifies all of these qualities on and off the Quidditch pitch - he may dream of glory, as he does after the QWC, but he is a true team player. In the PoA Ravenclaw match, Harry sees the Snitch but deliberately avoids catching it, choosing instead to divert Cho's attention because Gryffindor was down by more than 150 points. Compare this to Viktor Krum's decision to end the QWC on his own terms, even though he seals Bulgaria's loss to Ireland. This preserved his own status as the most brilliant Seeker, and though it could be interpreted as sparing his team the ignominy of a worse defeat, he snatched any hope Bulgaria might have had of pulling off a stunning comeback. I don't think Harry would ever do that - in my mind, he would always give his team a chance for victory, even though things might seem hopeless. As an example, in PS/SS Harry is able to get the Stone because he doesn't want it for himself. He recognizes immediately that the issue is greater than the Stone itself. In countering Hermione's argument that he should not go through the trapdoor because he might be expelled, Harry states, "Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! . . . . Losing points doesn't matter anymore. D'you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the House Cup?" (PS/SS ch. 16). He's not avenging the death of his parents, and he's not doing it for the glory. Unlike Krum, Harry won't catch the Snitch, or face down Voldemort, just to get glory for himself. BEATERS The Beaters' job, in one sentence, is to create chaos. During a match, the Beaters disrupt their opponents but have no offensive role. (QttA states that there is no indication that Beaters have ever handled the Quaffle.) The Beaters guard their teammates from the Bludgers and, as Oliver Wood points out, they also "try and knock them toward the other team." They are the only players that carry implements - and the clubs are themselves weapons. In essence, the Beaters to act as rogues to protect their team: they're *supposed* to aim Bludgers(which, as they're 10-inch iron balls, more resemble weapons more than implements of sport) at their opponents, and if the opponents are hurt, well, that's just a part of the game. Beaters also seem to have a penchant for rulebreaking. The only non- Beaters we ever see drawing penalties are Slytherins (which seems to fit with the characteristic that they will "do anything to achieve their ends"). Some examples: * In the PS/SS match against Hufflepuff (after Wood specifically told the team to play clean because Snape was refereeing) George cost Gryffindor a penalty because he aimed a Bludger at Snape, who was refereeing - and in a match that only lasted 5 minutes! * In the PoA match against Slytherin, Fred responds to an attack on Angelina by Marcus Flint by intentionally hitting Flint on the head with his club. Flint's violation earned Gryffindor a penalty shot, but Fred's violation offset it, as Slytherin got a penalty shot as well. Fortunately for him, Wood made a fabulous save, while Angelina was able to score on her penalty shot. Nevertheless, that kind of lawlessness can get the team in trouble. And the Slytherin Beaters go directly after Harry with their clubs after Harry has successfully avoided both their bludgers. Fortunately, Harry avoids them as well. * At the QWC, the Bulgarian Beaters, Volkov and Vulchanov (whose names recall the iron Bludgers themselves), "seemed not to care whether their clubs made contact with Bludger or human as they swung them violently through the air." On the other hand, though the Beaters on both sides "were acting without mercy" only the Bulgarian Beaters are seen to break the rules; the Irish Beater Quigley is seen making a clean swing of his bat and hitting the Bludger in the direction of Krum, who was the chief threat to the Irish team. * One other Beater deserves mention here. And though we only know Ludo Bagman from his behavior off the Quidditch pitch, he's not exactly shown to be a model of law-abiding behavior, either. It's not just that he's a gambler; it's that he welches on his bets. The Beaters we know best are the Twins, whose position as Beaters appears to be typecasting in the extreme. In describing the Beaters' jobs, Wood states that the Twins are "like a pair of human Bludgers themselves." And off the pitch, they repeatedly prove Wood right, for example, by aggressively dealing with Harry's antagonizers Dudley (Ton-Tongue Toffee) and Draco (the Train Stomp Incident). But like clubbing the Slytherins on the head, those actions have been viewed by some readers as excessive, even though Harry defends the Twins when they get in trouble after the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident, showing that he appreciates their support and efforts. The Twins give Harry positive support, too, the most notable example being giving Harry the Marauder's Map so he could visit Hogsmeade illegally. Nevertheless, though this was a magnanimous gesture, to date the Map has done little to help Harry except to aid him in mischief-making. In PoA Harry uses it only to get to Hogsmeade, and in GoF he uses it only to bathe in the Prefect's Bathroom. On the other hand, Crouch/Moody used it effectively to find and kill his father, and Lupin's use of it in PoA led to Pettigrew's escape. On balance, then, the Twins' greatest gift to Harry has already caused as much harm as good. Could the Twins' actions as Beaters foreshadow their role in the struggle? Will their rulebreaking (or their joke shop products) be used for the benefit of the dark side? If so, perhaps Gryffindor's ability to win despite their occasional fouls foreshadows Harry's eventual victory over Voldemort notwithstanding any trouble the Twins might cause. CHASERS We don't see much of any Chasers outside the context of the Quidditch matches themselves, but it seems to me that Chasers represent the importance of teamwork, support and loyalty. The Chasers on each team, by working together, will keep their team in the game and give their Seeker the opportunity to seize victory by catching the Snitch. In the usual case, the collective contributions of the Chasers are essential to victory. The work of the best Chasers (the team of Troy, Mullet and Moran at the QWC, who "work together as a seamless unit") is enough to win the QWC despite the fact that their Seeker was outmatched and concussed, but this appears to have been an anomaly - certainly Bagman was surprised by it. The only match in which the Chasers' match did not appear to make a difference was the PS/SS match against Hufflepuff in which Harry was able to see and grab the Snitch in the first five minutes. But this was also an anomaly; the Snitch is normally elusive and out of sight. The Seeker depends on the support of his/her teammates to keep the match close until the Snitch can be found. This was Krum's problem: his Chasers were unable to keep the game close enough for him. The Chasers, however, cannot seal a victory; only the Seeker can do that. The Chasers' excellent teamwork can only contribute in two ways: by keeping their team in the game, and, in the intra-House championship, to supply enough points so that their team will win the House Cup in the event of a tie in the standings (as happens in PoA). There are numerous off-pitch "Chasers" that support Harry in each showdown, and in each case, though Harry must face each final challenge alone, he could not succeed without their support, in the same way that Harry cannot ordinarily win a Quidditch match without his teammates. To briefly recap, Harry needs the assistance of Hermione and Ron to negotiate the obstacles protecting the Philosopher's Stone; he needs the information Hermione provides as well as hints from Dumbledore and Hagrid to find and kill the basilisk; he needs more hints from Dumbledore as well as Lupin's Patronus lessons and Hermione's Time-Turner to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak; and he needs all the spells Hermione can teach him in the Triwizard Tournament, plus the help of his shadow parents and Fawkes in the graveyard. And I'm sure there are others that I've missed. Though this list illustrates that Harry gets help from many sources, the most constant support comes from Hermione, who provides critical help in each book and who is always chasing down information that Harry will need later -Nicholas Flamel, the basilisk, spells Harry will need in the Triwizard Tournament. It's perhaps not at all accidental that the Gryffindor chasers (and the Irish chasers) are all female. KEEPER This position is the most enigmatic to date. We've seen very little of the Keeper during matches. Moreover, Oliver Wood as a character seems mostly intended as a humorous take on the fanatical coach whose sole focus in life is winning at all costs. Wood's lack of any significant future role in the books seems to be confirmed by his current job as reserve Keeper for a professional Quidditch team. But we do know this: a Keeper is the last line of defense for the team against goal-scoring. Like the Chasers, the Keeper's role is to keep the team in the game. Lee Jordan described Wood's spectacular grab of a Slytherin penalty shot in PoA, appropriately, as a "save." Also, though we have not seen this happen so far in the series, I expect that a Keeper that is truly worth his salt would, when given a choice between being smacked by a Bludger and allowing the Quaffle to go through the goalposts, choose to make the save. Thus, the Keeper's role can be seen as sacrificial - taking one for the team, as it were. If the Keeper is likely to be called upon to sacrifice to the cause of the team, then the selection of the next Keeper may foreshadow that character's role in the war ahead. Perhaps the new Keeper - whoever it is - will be put in a situation at some point in the series where he/she will be called upon to choose whether to save himself (or herself) or to sacrifice to allow Harry to continue the quest to defeat Voldemort. Ron is often suggested as a candidate for sacrifice, based on his chess sacrifice in PS/SS. Funny, though, I never thought of him as a Quidditch player. I tend to think his development as a character would be better served by his *not* joining the Quidditch team, as it seems too easy a solution for his jealousy and need for attention, which has been carefully developed through the first four books. So, IMO, the field is wide open for this position. CAPTAIN Through the first three books, Oliver Wood was, in addition to Keeper, also the team captain and its chief strategist. It was his decision to keep Harry as the secret weapon in PS/SS, and his decision that Harry should stay far away from the action at his first match until he actually sees the Snitch. Wood was the one who continually reminded Harry that in the final PoA match against Slytherin he should not catch the Snitch unless Gryffindor was more than 50 points ahead. The Keeper position and the coach's job will not necessarily continue to be occupied by the same person, but the team will continue to need good coaching skills. As I see it, the primary coach of the "light" team that will fight Voldemort - of whom the nucleus would appear to be the "old crowd" mentioned at the end of GoF - has been Dumbledore himself. (Harry does have other mentors, such as Sirius and Lupin, but they don't give advice consistently in each book.) Though Dumbledore is never present at the climax of any book in the series, in each case Harry relies on advice Dumbledore has provided to him: in PS/SS Harry's understanding of the Mirror of Erised is of critical importance; in CoS, after Dumbledore gives a pointed hint in Hagrid's hut, Harry invokes his loyalty to Dumbledore in the chamber and is rewarded with Fawkes and the Sorting Hat bearing Godric Gryffindor's sword, which are the tools he needs to defeat the basilisk; in PoA, Dumbledore coaches Harry and Hermione on their mission to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak; and in GoF, he associates a critical piece of advice in the graveyard ("Don't break the connection") with Dumbledore. It has been speculated that Dumbledore will die or otherwise be taken out of the picture in the next book or two in order to allow Harry to shoulder all responsibility for himself and complete his hero's journey. There is some sense of that already in GoF, in which Harry does not rely on specific advice from Dumbledore but instead only imagines that Dumbledore is telling him not to break the connection. The way in which this passage is written suggests to me that Harry finds that advice within himself. What does the hero's journey have to do with Quidditch? Well, if Harry is on a hero's journey, and Dumbledore is the counsellor and metaphorical team captain who will at some point leave the scene to allow the hero to reach full maturity, and if my premise that Quidditch mirrors in some respect what happens in the Voldemort wars is correct, then Harry must be named captain of the Quidditch team. Perhaps this will happen in OoP, or perhaps one of the seventh- years will take on that role for a year (as I suggest above with respect to the Beaters and Chasers, choosing a Twin or a Chaser might be very significant for the action in OoP), leaving Harry another year to prepare to shoulder the burden himself. But I think it will happen at some point, if JKR is indeed drawing the parallels I'm suggesting. THE BROOMS There can be no getting around it: Harry has the best equipment money can buy. In PS/SS he gets a top-of-the-line Nimbus 2000 and then, when it is shattered in PoA, he gets a Firebolt, the best broom in the world. Most of Harry's competition is playing with inferior equipment. Cho, for example, rides a Comet Two Sixty, which "is going to look like a joke next to the Firebolt," according to Wood, and the description of the Ravenclaw match makes clear that Cho's broom can't keep up with Harry's, though Harry acknowledges her flying skills. The Slytherins, of course, have Nimbus 2001s, which provided them with a momentary advantage over Harry until he acquired the Firebolt. But Draco, too focused on his own glory to concentrate on the task at hand, cannot put his advantage to good use and cannot catch the Snitch even though it hovers by his own ear. The conclusion: Harry has the skills to win without the best equipment. (In the PoA match against Slytherin, where Harry needs the speed of his Firebolt to catch up to Draco to get the Snitch, the reason he needs the power is telling - he had diverted his attention from looking for the Snitch to defend his teammate against an onslaught of Slytherins.) THE MATCHES AS FORESHADOWING The second illustration of how well Quidditch is woven into the fabric of the series is how the Quidditch matches in the books foreshadow that book's climax. GoF The QWC can be viewed as foreshadowing what happens in the graveyard. Ireland wins the QWC despite Krum's capture of the Snitch because its Chasers demonstrate exquisite skill and teamwork. I see Ireland as representing the "light" side and Bulgaria as the Dark Side -- suggested by the fact that its Seeker, Krum, attends Durmstrang, where students are taught the Dark Arts and not merely to defend against them. Krum's strategy is to take the Irish Seeker, Lynch, out of the game by using the Wronski Feint. I don't think it's accidental that JKR shows how bloodied both Seekers become, or that Lynch continues to play despite an apparent concussion, and manages to hang in there through the end. The sight of Lynch, dazed and confused, in the Top Box with the other members of his team, is symbolically important, as is the sight of Krum's bloody nose, indicating that he did not get through the match unscathed. If you compare this to what happens in the graveyard, Voldemort, the "seeker" of power and immortality, achieves a great personal victory through his re-birthing. Voldemort's rebirthing appears to have been spectacularly successful, like Krum's capture of the Snitch. By the end of the graveyard scene, Harry has been Stunned, Imperio'd, and Crucio'd. Like Lynch, he is dazed and confused. But Voldemort does not succeed in taking Harry out of the game - he escapes before Voldemort can kill him. Bulgaria should have such an advantage with the "unbelievable" Krum, but his supporting cast proves unable to provide the necessary support. Likewise, the team of DEs Voldemort assembles - who, he notes, have been disloyal and who are cowering in terror at the sight of Voldemort - does not appear to be up to the job. Voldemort, like Krum, wants the glory for himself and does not trust his supporting cast. So he takes on the job of killing Harry himself. But Harry's own supporting cast rises to the occasion: Fawkes (symbolically present, at a minimum, in the phoenix song Harry hears); his shadow parents, who give him the instructions he needs; Hermione, who is not present but who taught him to master the "Accio" charm through which Harry effects his escape via the Portkey, and certainly others who I've missed. On the other hand, when the terrified DEs are finally called into action as Harry dashes for the portkey, their spells cannot touch him, so Harry makes it back to Hogwarts. Though physically injured and emotionally wracked, he (like Aidan Lynch) will recover to fight another day. PoA Here the events of each Quidditch match foreshadow the events following the Shrieking Shack episode. In the first Quidditch match in PoA, against Hufflepuff, Harry succumbs to the power of the Dementors and passes out on his broomstick. Similarly, Harry1 is overcome by the Dementors and is unable to cast a Patronus as they surround him and Hermione (ch. 20). In the second match, against Ravenclaw, Harry successfully casts the Patronus (even though the "Dementors" turn out not to have been real so they do not affect him). And later on, Harry2 (TimeTurnered!Harry) conjures a very powerful Patronus (but because he is across the lake, he is relatively unaffected by the Dementors this time) (ch. 21). In the third match, against Slytherin, Harry manages to beat Draco to the Snitch - despite constant foul play by the Slytherins - with Snape decked out in green and watching from the front row. Later, Harry and Hermione engineer the escape of Sirius and Buckbeak, thwarting Draco's attempts to have Buckbeak executed and Snape's satisfaction at seeing Sirius captured. CoS Here Harry's battle with the rogue bludger seems to parallel Harry's later battle with the Basilisk. Dobby, bless him, unwittingly prepares Harry for the encounter. In the Quidditch match, Harry elects to take on the rogue Bludger by himself, to allow Fred and George to concentrate on protecting the rest of the team from the other Bludger. He does this even though he has no idea if it will do any good. But Harry outplays the Bludger, just as later on he outplays the Basilisk. The Bludger does manage to land a nasty blow on Harry's right arm, just above the elbow, as Harry grabs the Snitch. In the Chamber, the Basilisk bites Harry in the elbow -- almost exactly the same spot - just as Harry punches Godric's sword through the Basilisk and kills him (ch. 17). Both the Bludger and the Basilisk produce exactly the same "searing pain" in Harry's elbow; in both instances, he needs outside help to recover. PS/SS I've left this for last, because the parallels do not seem to work as foreshadowing like the parallels in the later books do. The primary parallel I see in the first Quidditch match, against Slytherin, is that the Trio suspect Snape both of trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match and of trying to get through the obstacles to reach the Stone. However, since Harry doesn't learn that Snape was protecting him instead of jinxing him at the Quidditch match until he faces Quirrelmort, the element of foreshadowing is lacking. There is some foreshadowing in the Hufflepuff match, where Harry's grab of the Snitch in record time foreshadows his ability later on to retrieve the Stone instantly from the Mirror when he realizes he needs to keep Quirrelmort from getting it (ch. 17). However, I find this parallel less satisfying than those in the later books. Perhaps this is testimony to JKR's improvement as a writer as the series progresses, or to the fact that the plot of PS/SS is less complex than later plots. THE FUTURE OF QUIDDITCH It has been speculated that Quidditch might fade from the books as the series becomes darker and the serious threats facing the WW cause Quidditch to lose its power to thrill. I don't think this will happen. I believe that Quidditch is part of the structure underlying the books and it's unlikely that it will be scrapped. Harry's speech in PS/SS shows that he already knew at age 11 that winning the Quidditch cup isn't what really matters. Harry's lying when he tells Quirrell he sees himself in the mirror with the Quidditch cup. JKR makes that point again when, in PoA, Harry learns in his first Patronus lesson with Lupin (PoA ch. 12) that memories of flying or winning the House cup are not strong enough to produce a Patronus. But that doesn't mean that it's not valuable for Harry to play Quidditch. Quidditch helps keep Harry's spirits up, it sharpens skills he will need later, and JKR does give him a wonderful - but temporary - moment of the euphoria that accompanies a championship. I think she has a lot more Quidditch planned, and it will continue to be important to Harry, to the plot, and to the structure of the series. Debbie http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfor...s/message/48192 __________________________________________________ My (vmonte) response to Debbie's problem with quidditch during SS/PS: I believe that the quidditch in this book reflects what happened at Godric's Hollow. Debbie wrote about the ease of Harry catching the snitch above. Well, look at how baby Harry was able to defeat Voldemort at GH. (And it was really due to the fact that his mother had placed a spell on Harry to protect him.) By the way, should we start thinking that Snape was at Godric's Hollow too? And what about Wormtail's role? Didn't Peter turn out to be as "two-faced" as Quirrell?! Peter and Quirrell were both perceived as being harmless, but in the end it turned out they were both working for the baddest guy of all. If you go to JKR's website she says there that what happened at GH was originally included in SS/PS but she took it out. (Click on the coffee cup and then click on Edits: Opening chapter of Philosopher's Stone.) Vivian From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Jul 6 21:36:44 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:36:44 -0000 Subject: DD's Plan to stop HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132134 DD has a plan and caring too much for Harry has gotten in the way. So that got me thinking, maybe there is always a chosen wizard destined to be the next Dark Lord. The Dark Lord has always been present in the WW - but he is not just one wizard but a succession of them. Each one has been vanquished by the new DL. The prophecy foretold who would become the next DL. Now suppose DD knew that Harry was destined to be the next DL but LV did something more than any DL ever has before - something that made him immortal, something that put a kink in the succession and gives DD time to design a plan (10 years would about do it). Two DLs cannot exist at the same time. Harry and LV both exist now because Harry has made different choices - choices that will not make him the next DL. Now DD has a chance to finally eliminate the DL by doing all he can to guide Harry and encourage him to continue making the right choices. Then Harry can defeat the DL once and for all without turning into the DL himself. DD has put off implementing the plan because he didn't want to see Harry unhappy. He dare not wait any longer - Harry will have to be armed with that knowledge very soon. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 21:44:14 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:44:14 -0000 Subject: Does JKR dislike writing about Quidditch matches? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132135 Debbie's post can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48192 From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 21:47:02 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:47:02 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132136 bboyminn wrote: Actually, Occlumency is the ability to block you mind from intrusion. Legilimency is the ability to 'intrude' into other people's mind. The problem is that much of fandom has made assumptions about these things that aren't supported by the books. Many fans take them to be one and the same, but, of course, they are not. Some fans have leap to the conclusion that if you have one then you automatically have the other; again, not true, not supported by the books. vmonte responds: Thanks for correcting me, I always get the two confused. And I also agree that Snape's skill is in Occlumency and not in Legilimency. Vivian From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 22:05:09 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] God in the WW In-Reply-To: <002601c5825c$bf8fc680$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <20050706220509.87154.qmail@web31511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132137 --- manawydan wrote: > Tania wrote: > > Okay, I have a question about the WW in general. > Actually, it is my > > husband who likes to tease me about "problems" he > finds with the HP > > series. This is the question: Does the WW believe > in God? He asks > > this because they celebrate Christmas with a > dinner and exchange > > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to > church or anything > > like that. Any thoughts? I guess my response is this: Does it matter? It is a fictional world. Does a work of fiction HAVE to have religion or a religous bend to it to make it valid or worth reading? (If it does, I'm not sure we'd have as many romance novels as we do, or science fiction for that matter.) My other response is this: There are plenty of atheists and other people in the world that celebrate Christmas as a time of gift giving and peace, and do it in a matter that has nothing to do with Christ. To those people, Christmas is much less a religious holiday, and more a 'state' holiday, or rather a civic holiday. Everyone pretty much has grown up with it, knows what it is, and MOST people have the day off. (Unless of course, you were like me and were the only kid that celebrated XMas in your kindergarten.) I have several pagan friends that celebrate Christmas, as it does fall in the middle of all mid-winter celebrations. To them, it's not the name, but the intent behind the celebration. The flip side of that is that there are many people who say they are Christian that only go to mass/church/house of worship during a holiday season. There are plenty of Christians who do not go to church on Sundays. So, to sum, it's a work of fiction. Does it really matter? bamf, battling a migraine and a sinus infection... Me t wyrd gewf __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 6 22:29:34 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:29:34 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132138 > Davenclaw: > I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS > saved by a time-travelling Harry, when Harry didn't get the > opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the > dementors. I think to understand this you really do need to think four- dimensionally. Harry's timeline is distinct from the timeline of, say, Hogwarts, Sirius, Buckbeak and Dumbledore just like these are distinct in a three-dimensional sense. Harry's timeline *relative to* pretty much everyone else (but Hermione) loops back on itself, yes, but nothing else has this fold. We only see `the same time twice' according to Harry, *relative to* the timeframe of Hogwarts. Harry doesn't actually `experience' time twice ? he's older when he casts the Patronus than when he sees it ? and Hogwarts doesn't experience time twice. The only thing is that *relative* to Hogwarts time, Harry is only going back in time in a sense. He *doesn't* undo what is already done according to his timeline. It has passed and he can't jump back into his old skin and redo the day ? or at least not with the time-turner as described by JKR. I really really hope you can see the distinction I'm making here because it is crucial. Really think about what you mean when you say `back in time'? Think about *relative* timelines. This is the basis of Einstein's Theory of Relativity and accepted universally by Physicists in the real world. Any accusations of logical absurdity aren't going to cut it here. I have the big guys on my side (so ner!). I know it isn't easy to grasp but it isn't absurd. Please don't dismiss it because you can't see it right away. It took me a long while to sort this stuff out, but now it's second nature so excuse me if I don't explain well enough! I'm not a great teacher (as you can tell!) but I really am passionate about this stuff. I think it is the most interesting physics thing there is to know about. Right, now you've got this far, one problem you seem to have is the apparrent 'backwards' causation in HARRY's timeline. Note that there is no apparrent backwards causation in the timeline of Hogwarts. In Harry's timeline, he sees the Patronus a long time before he casts it. Now, this is a problem (i.e. philosophers talk about it alot), but there is actually no *logical* contradiction in this 'backwards' causation at all. The causes are continuous, it's just that Harr's timeline happens to overlap at some point. This doesn't even defy the laws of Physics! This sort of thing would be perfectly acceptable if space-time curved in a certain way. Ever heard of worm- holes? The problem comes when you define causation and time first then find that reality doesn't fit. Sometimes you have to step back and let your preconceived ideas go. Look at the facts. Question your beliefs. *I* had to. And I love the fact I did. I see everything in a different way now. > Davenclaw: > As JKR presents the risks of time-travel, I think she makes it clear > that the past CAN be interfered with. Otherwise, there is no risk > of encountering your past-self if you have no memory of already > doing so when you were your past self. JLV: I am totally in agreement with the `Hermione didn't present the facts' brigade here. You argue that Hermione's words are actually more reliable than the testimony of actual events that occurred that night. Remember Harry *did* see himself cast the spell across the lake. Harry knew he could cast the patronus *because* he had already seen that he could do it. > Davenclaw: > The moment that you do something that alters the course of events, > it erases any memory of how things had occurred the first time > around, so although you are ACTUALLY causing events, you only THINK > that you are participating in events that already happened. JLV: I have no idea where you got this idea from. Where in the book is it even suggested that Harry's time-turning changed his memory or changed the past? This is something that you have constructed yourself. Let go of this idea and you'll see that there is a far simpler explanation ? no conspiracy ? no omniscient headmaster. Just the events from the book. > Davenclaw: > Heck, this basically means that if you go back to fix a problem, > after having fixed the problem, you're going to say "Wait, this is > how it always happened - so why did I have to go back in time in the > first place? Huh, I guess that it didn't happen this way the first > time... weird." (This is sort of like the scene in Quantum Leap > where we learn that Sam has saved Jackie Kennedy's life, but didn't > realize it because to him, that's how it always happened.) JLV: Ah ? there's the problem ? Quantum Leap! The show where they go back in time ? right inside someone else's skin ? and fix their life. Remember this is nothing like what Harry and Hermione actually do. You are assuming that Harry and Hermione time-turned to /change/ time, so of course you expect something to have changed. I contend that they do not change time. It is this assumption that is causing the confusion. Time didn't need changing, they just needed an extra set of hands with a perfect alibi to do the rescuing. Let go of the `change time' assumption and you find your problem just vanishes, *poof*, into thin air. Now, that's magic! > Davenclaw: > Consider this: > > TT-H&H are watching normal H&H walking in a field. Hermione > says "don't interfere." But Harry has no memory of seeing himself > as a time-traveler, so he thinks there is no risk. So he runs out > into the field screaming like a banshee. IMMEDIATELY TT-Harry only > remembers seeing the events that he is now causing, back when he was > normal-Harry, who is now watching himself screaming. As every > moment goes by, the events occurring become the only timeline anyone > ever knew. But this doesn't change the fact that we, as omniscient > observers to the entire situation, are aware that things were > different before the time traveling took place. JLV: This problem falls into the free-will category. This is a *big* issue in the philosophy of time which I won't pretend to be able to explain to you here (because I don't really understand it all). Basically, given my view of events, Harry has *no* 'free will' to go running about in front of himself as you describe. Again, there is no *logical* contradiction here. You assume we have free will, whereas I don't ? I take the facts as I see them. Of course, you just have to carefully consider what I mean by free will. Don't just say `of course I'm free' ? how free is free? I have to obey the laws of physics and logic - so do you. Is that free? If I'm not free should I just give up? Of course not! Consider this: If we were free to go `back' and erase the past of ourselves where we decided to go `back', we would never have got `back' to actually do it! I can't emphasise this enough. If you *could* change the past then you *would* erase the future when the past-changing was originally initiated, thus you have a logical absurdity. Please try to understand this ? I feel terrible that we can't seem to impress this on you! > Davenclaw: > Perhaps that is the disconnect here: everyone else is describing > events as they are understood within the Potterverse, whereas I am > complaining that we, as outside observers, are left out of the > series of events that were not tampered with. Why think that there was another series of events that were erased when there is a much simpler explanation ? one that fits with the laws of logic and (to some extent) physics? Why introduce a set of events that isn't even hinted at in the book. Remember that if there is *no* evidence for something there is no logical reason to suppose that it exists. (Occam's razor) Please don't dismiss this off-hand. You don't have to agree with everything I say, but I really think the explanation that myself and my fellow posters propose is simpler and contains fewer logical contradictions and assumptions than your own. Of course, that is JMO... JLV xx From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 23:13:30 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (madam_marozi) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:13:30 -0000 Subject: Animagus forms (was Peter, Sirius, or Lupin: who was the spy again?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132139 Demetra: > I have also read some articles where dog behaviors are evaluated as > pack-like. The dog sees it's humans as pack mates. But the animal > behaviorists that I have read don't describe the dog behavior as > loyalty, but rather as resistance to any disruption of the pack > order. Marozi: Well, inevitably, behaviorists are going to describe animal behavior in value-neutral terms. But the designation of animagi forms seems to be anything but value-neutral, and as much symbolic as anything. There's nothing particularly treacherous about real, flesh-and-blood rats, but for a human to call another human a rat has a very specific meaning. Peter is a rat. A dog, on the other hand, in human symbolism, is Fido, man's best friend. Stags symbolize nobility and prowess. "Bugs" are pests and, even more idiomatically, eavesdroppers. Demetra: > My question to other listees regarding this premise is this: If > Sirius is meant to be seen in a positive light because his animagus > form is associated with positive traits, what are we supposed to > think about McGonnagall? Should we be wary of her because her > animagus form is a cat? Marozi: Lots of real life cats are ornery, stupid little beasts (sorry, cat people), but folklore endows them with qualities like cleverness, self-reliance, fastidiousness, and of course, association with witchcraft. So, not necessarily negative associations. From ctcasares at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 23:20:06 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:20:06 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS saved by a time-traveling Harry, when Harry didn't get the opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the dementors. Tyler: If you accept time travel, then there is no *logical* problem. You are confused b/c the cause happens AFTER the effect, which is not something that actually occurs in the real world. It happened here because they time-travelled. They really moved within TIME--to the SAME time and the SAME place. To Harry, he casts the Patronus *after* he had been rescued. But to EVERY other observer, in the Potterverse and outside of it, TT!Harry cast the Patronus **at the same time** that OriginalRunThroughHarry is being killed by the dementors. Imagine the Dementor attack happens at 11 pm. Let's put times to Harry's perception of events. At 11, Harry gets rescued, returns to Hogwarts, and an hour later, 12 am, travels back in time. Now, by 1 am, he rescues Buckbeak. At 2 am, Harry casts the Patronus. At 3 am he's back in the infirmary safe and sound. There. All events in order, cause happening before effect. Where the conundrum is--Harry travelled in time. He didn't really save Buckbeak at 1 am. He saved him by 10 pm. He didn't really cast that Patronus at 2 am, he cast it at 11. Which is why he didn't die. His future self was in the **past**. The travelling occurs in TIME as well as space. You are also confused b/c of the plethora of badly written time travelling stories that have an "original time" and then an "altered time" that happens subsequently. I say 'badly written' not b/c they aren't entertaining, but b/c they are logically impossible. You wouldn't really be TRAVELLING in TIME if events occurred one way and then were changed. You would be travelling to a DIFFERENT time and space. A different timeline and universe. Davenclaw: He was about to be killed, and if he had been killed, he never would have had the opportunity to go back in time. Tyler: Exactly! You've got it! Davenclaw: It is only after he went back in time and saved himself, that that version of events became the one-and-only version of events that everyone knows of and remembers. Tyler: And you lost it. There are no other versions, though I like your "instant amnesia" theory. Harry travelled in time. The "first" time through he saw himself cast the Patronus, but thought it was his father. This *is* the original timeline. This is how events occurred, the first, last, and only time they happened. Buckbeak NEVER died. We do see all the events that happened. Davenclaw: I just don't see how you can ignore this and just happily accept that he ALWAYS was there to save himself. That is only the perception left in everyone's minds as a result of the time-travel. Tyler: No. It's not a perception. If you travel within a single timeline within a single universe, you can't change the past, because it has already occurred. Davenclaw: Perhaps that is the disconnect here: everyone else is describing events as they are understood within the Potterverse, whereas I am complaining that we, as outside observers, are left out of the series of events that were not tampered with. Tyler: No, Davenclaw, I'm not only describing what the Potterverse understands. I'm describing what OCCURRED in the Potterverse. Events were always, as you say, tampered with, b/c future people were in the past. The fact that they came from the future a time that hadn't happened yet? That's what time travel is! Obviously it doesn't make you happy to think there is some "original" timeline that JK Rowling just didn't bother herself to write about. And that's because there ISN'T another timeline. She wrote about the one, original timeline. I think she did a bang-up job of writing a perfectly logical single timeline time-travel story. Everything is tight. The only paradox is that they time travel. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Jul 6 13:58:45 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:58:45 -0000 Subject: Question from a lurker... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132141 --- "potioncat" wrote: > "paddyandnick" wrote: > > I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask a question :) A friend and I are > > going to one of the midnight Half-Blood Prince parties at a local > > bookstore. She wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't figure > > out which house she belonged to. Her entry on Wikipedia > > says "unknown". > > Can anybody help? Thanks! > > Potioncat: > As this is a book event and not a...a...MTMNBN event...keep in mind > the school uniforms in canon are generic. They are all black. The > only time something might be worn to show House membership, seems to > be during Quidditch matches. aussie Re-read GOF Chap 25. Myrtle is quite smug at the logic to reveal the secrets of the Golden egg. Ravenclaw would fit her well. PS- HAVE FUN AND GET A LOT OF SLEEP THE DAY BEFORE ... LOL aussie From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 23:41:51 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:41:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: <20050706142853.21508.qmail@web8609.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132142 >Subhash wrote: >Let's see what Boggart does when he sees a person in front of him. >We can say that Boggart doesn't need a wand to do this type of >legilimency. Yes, I am talking about legilimency. Boggart >penetrates the mind of his client and immediately gains the >knowledge of `HIS/HER FEAR'. And after that, it takes the shape of >that fear. That's how it works. >Rams wrote: >Neither has to work on the mind of its victim- >rather, it works something like an emotion-sensor which is tuned in >to a particular wavelength. I agree with Rams, I don't think legilimency is involved, I think that we project our fears onto the world. Maybe first the boggart just emanates the emotion of fear, and when we sense it, we give it form. This makes a conection between the boggart and the individual, so that the boggart is tuned into that individual's emotional state and sort of locks itself into it. This concept seems to work much better with the defense against a boggart. When the individual becomes concious of their own fear and changes that into laughter, then the boggart is forced to change by the change in their emotion. Also, when a group of people is involved, all projecting different things, the boggart changes form rapidly. If the boggart used legilimency to look for fears, why would it change into something funny, surely it would simply seek something else that we were afraid of and change into that. It would be controlling the situation, whereas it seems to me, that with boggarts, as soon as the wizard/witch realises what is happening and deliberately makes the effort to change their emotion, they are in control of the boggart shape. If this theory is correct, then a boggart's shape would change according to what someone feared most at that moment. So if Harry had seen a boggart before he saw a dementor in PoA, it would probably have taken the form of LV. Only after he had met a dementor would it take that shape. Therefore I don't think people have a fixed form boggart, like they have a fixed form patronus. >Mira wrote: >Along the same line of thought, I read somewhere an >excellent theory that Voldemort would not be able to >produce a patronus, I haven't read the original post, but I think the moment that the DEs escaped from Azkaban might produce a pretty good patronus! >Marcella wrote: >I think that Voldie's boggart might be something related to >Love/Hope/Goodness. Nice one Marcella, I liked your argument. Saraquel From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 23:44:33 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:44:33 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132143 "vmonte" wrote: > > Why would Snape need to use truth serum to read Harry's mind if he is > a great mind reader? And did he read Moody's mind during GoF? KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I think the reason he threatened Harry with truth serum, was to scare Harry into actually being honest, I don't have my book in front of me, but doesn't this happen after the incident where they are on the staires? I think Snape still believes Harry was in his office, else why would the egg and the map be there? I don't think he realizes Harry was actually going helping Snape, to see who was actually snooping in his office. I don't think Snape has any way of knowing if Harry was in his office or not, he just suspects it. OK so, why scare Harry with truth serum, well, Snape believes Harry doesn't tell him the truth all the time, and actually, Harry generally doesn't with Snape. Now, I like Harry, but, he does tend to lie to Snape...so, Odds are, if Snape realizes that, then he feels he has to scare it out of him. OK, so why scare him, why not just say, Look I know your lieing make it easy on yourself and talk. Well, I'll take my little comparison from another movie about Teenagers in School..and its called Grease..Oh yes, you say, UNI..how can you compair Harry Potter to Grease, well..Snape is...OK..enough joking. I do have a serious point to make here. If anyone has ever watched Grease, one will remember the scene where the BOYS MOON the TV camera, in other words they pulled down their pants and showed their rears...OK..thats like NOT really all that interesting or shocking now adays, but, if we watch the scene further, we see the Principal the next day, telling whoever did it that they must turn themselves in, and then she tells the whole school that The photo's of there bums have been sent to the FBI and they know who they are and they must turn themselves in right away....well, Obviously that is not true, so, she was trying to scare the boys into telling the truth.... OK, so, my real idea is, Snape never intended to use the truth serum on Harry, he was actually just trying to scare him....Grease...is the word....or..something like that. > "Meaning what?" Snape turned again to look at Moody, his hands still > outstretched, inches from Harry's chest. > > "Meaning that Dumbledore's very interested to know who's got it in > for that boy!" said Moody, limping nearer still to the foot of the > stairs. And so am I, Snape ... very interested...." The torchlight > flickered across his mangled face, so that the scars, and the > "vmonte" wrote: > > It's obvious that Snape was in no way threatened by FakeMoody during > this conversation until FakeMoody threatened to tell DD about Snape's > true intentions towards Harry. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Now, I don't know about that, its generally hard to tell, One can read this scene quite a few ways, my take on it is at this point in the scene: Roll Scene: > "'Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. "He's a trusting man, > isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots > that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know > what I mean?" > Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm > convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had hurt > him. CUT SCENE: OK, to me it looks like Snape had a very real reaction to what Fake Moody said, as if he was shocked and scared. I don't see Snape as a crying and whippering kind of person. He always seems very tightly wound to me, like a spring, and whenever its at the breaking point it does something really strange and sudden....meh, or..thats one way of looking at it. Though, your take is very resonable to, they do stare at each other a lot, but that can also be seen as a test of wills, sizing up your opponit. It just seems like, Snape already knows Moody and they might butt heads much like he does with Sirius...but Moody is much older, and sometimes Snape appears to have a problem with people his own age and younger, and he tends to be more standoffish or willing to back off quicker when its someone older or more experienced. Meh, thats just one idea I suppose. "vmonte" wrote: > > I've mentioned this before but what if... > Snape and Crouch Jr. were both at Neville's parents house when they > were tortured into insanity? KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I don't know, I though the Longbottoms were tortured after Voldemort fell??? >From Lexicon: Frank and his Alice were captured by Death Eaters shortly after the fall of Voldemort (c.1981). They were subjected to the Cruciatus Curse in an attempt to force them to tell where the defeated Dark Lord had fled to. I guess that doesn't prove Snape was not there but: Can someone explain this to me, why would Death Eaters capture them to tell them where Voldemort is??? This whole situation doesn't make since to me..shouldn't it be the other way around, why would Frank and Alice know where Voldemort had when???? Did they think he was actually captured?? meh...that doesn't make since to me and I hope for clarification in the books. I can see them being tortured because the Death Eaters were mad that their boss had been defeated...but, the explaination doesn't really make since..meh..maybe I'm just missing something. "vmonte" wrote: > So, why is Snape always trying to get Harry expelled? Is it because Snape cannot use Harry for his own purposes while Harry is still at school? KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Meh, I don't know if he is always trying to get him expelled, how many times has he actually tried to get Harry expelled. I really can't remember honestly, someone I'm sure can point that out to me, I remember the one where Harry and Ron drove the car...and he said something about them being expelled, again, don't have books open, so can't remember exactly what Snape said...and I remember something from POA...But, is Snape always trying to get Harry Expelled?? If I'm to keep an open mind on both characters, then, 9 out of 10 times I see Snape harrasing Harry when he is breaking rules, or Snape thinks he is breaking rules. While I'm not giving him any credit here, sometimes Snape may feel he is right to give his opinion on rule breaking to Dumbledore or whoever is above him. Maybe Snape takes a very strict view on rules.....Snape...taking a strict view..Imagine that! I believe if you said Rules were made to be broken to Snape, he would hex you....hehe, but thats just my own personal theory. My view on why he may think this way is, maybe as a Slytherin student he saw Griffendors like James breaking rules and getting away with it, and maybe in his mind it was unfair, even if it was something simple, that didn't really hurt anyone. So, his strict interpritation of things makes him look quite mean to someone like Harry....unlike most of us, we see some situations where Harry needs to break rules to help save lives and solve a problem, maybe Snape is not able or willing to see things in shades of gray, everything may be black and white to him....meh, I don't know. Just a theory. KarentheUnicorn From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 14:01:32 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:01:32 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > The problem is not the TT!people seeing their past selves. It's the > other way around: the past selves seeing the TT!people. As Hermione > explains to Harry, if past!Harry saw TT!Harry, he would most probably > assume that some dark magic was at work, and he might attack TT!Harry > before any explanation could be given. If there is no way to "change" the past, but only to "participate" in it, then wouldn't the TT-Harry already know if he had encountered his TT-self? Then we would see this conversation: Harry: "Let's use the time-turner!" Hermione: "Okay, but you can't let your past self see your time- traveling self!" Harry: "Well, if I had seen my TT-self, I would know now, wouldn't I? But in the past three hours, I never saw another me. So there's nothing to worry about!" Hermione: "Oh... well... but maybe that's only because you're going to be careful!" Harry: "Well, if we already know I'm going to be careful, then you don't need to tell me to be careful, do you?" Hermione: "I suppose not... but be careful, just the same!" Now, just so we understand, since you are saying that the past can't be changed, but only fulfilled, then the only reason you would use the TT would be to witness or participate in a different set of events than your non-TT self. So Hermione can be in two classes at once. You would NEVER say "well, what just happened was really awful, let's go change it!" Because then you would say, "Well, it just happened, period, so if I choose to go back, it means that either going back will cause it, or at least not prevent it, so I can't change things, or else they would be chagned." So if something bad happened, you wouldn't bother going back. And if something good happened, you might say "Well, I'm so glad things turned out that way... but what if the only reason things worked out is because I used the time-turner to change them? Well, I just won't bother, since things turned out as they did, so whatever decision I make now won't change things." So no one would actually ever use the time-turner, since they would never know that it was necessary in order to bring about events as they occured, unless they saw something when they weren't time- traveling that tipped them off to the presence of their time-traveling selves. Or in this case, something tipped off Dumbledore. I think this is my last post on the topic... - davenclaw From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 14:17:25 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:17:25 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132145 Hi everyone, I was looking at the Database and saw a post which was lamenting (among other things) the fact that all of the "good guys" seem to be in Gryffindor, which seems a bit lazy on the part of JKR. Surely there are some prominent members of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff in the Order? But it got me thinking about how some people really don't seem to belong in their house. So I'd like to start a thread to discuss where we think some characters could or should have been sorted differently, based on what we know so far. Here's my list so far: - Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for Ravenclaw. And while she's no coward (and I have a feeling that HBP is going to showcase a particularly brave action), let's face it: her over-riding personality characteristics are intelligence and studiousness. I say, put her in Ravenclaw. - Percy: His priorities in life are: 1. Percy 2. Percy 3. Percy 4. Ministry of Magic 5. Percy Not only have we never seen him act bravely, we've never seen a boot that he wouldn't lick or a back he wouldn't stab to get ahead. How he got into Gryffindor, I've no idea, other than being a Weasely. To me, Percy is all Slytherin. - Peter Pettigrew: I don't think we are ever told what house he was in, but it was probably Gryffindor, given the crowd he hung out with. And it almost definitely wasn't Slytherin, which means that whatever it was, it was a mistake: clearly, the Rat is a Snake. - Neville: Neville is certainly developing into a strong character, and I'm confident that the next two books will dispel any doubts that he should be in Gryffindor. But from what we know from books 1 - 5, I'd say the preponderance of evidence suggests that Hufflepuff is a better fit. - Tom Riddle: Tom was such a friendly, noble young man, surely he should have been in Hufflepuff? Haha, just kidding. - davenclaw From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 00:46:31 2005 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:46:31 -0000 Subject: Advanced Potions textbook Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132146 I know someone must have posted about this but my search hasn't turned it up. The old copy of Advanced Potions seen on the cover of one edition of HBP might well be another one of 'Lord Voldemort's old school things', hence the connection to CoS. If so, and it's in the Malfoy house, Draco may drag it out to use it against Harry, or for some other nefarious purpose now that Dad is in Azkaban. I do believe Jo has set up a huge conflict between Harry and Snape, and this old text book is another pointer in that direction as well. Did Voldemort use potions to achieve much of his partial "immortality"? Is what Snape does as a "spy" related to potions making? I'm sure someone else has posted a more coherent theory in more convincing form; can anyone tell me where? Thanks much! Marmelade Mom From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Jul 7 01:12:31 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:12:31 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Hi everyone, I was looking at the Database and saw a post which was > lamenting (among other things) the fact that all of the "good guys" > seem to be in Gryffindor, which seems a bit lazy on the part of > JKR. Surely there are some prominent members of Ravenclaw and > Hufflepuff in the Order? But it got me thinking about how some > people really don't seem to belong in their house. So I'd like to > start a thread to discuss where we think some characters could or > should have been sorted differently, based on what we know so far. > Here's my list so far: > > - Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for > Ravenclaw. And while she's no coward (and I have a feeling that HBP > is going to showcase a particularly brave action), let's face it: > her over-riding personality characteristics are intelligence and > studiousness. I say, put her in Ravenclaw. > She has distict Ravenclaw tendencies, but when it comes down to it, she values bravery more then knowledge: "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" -- PS She is also brave enough to brew a restricted potion, and steal ingredients to do so, turn Harry's Firebolt into McGonagall, knowing what Harry & Rons reaction would be, hit Malfoy, hex Snape, and lure Umbridge into a pack of angry centaurs... > > - Percy: His priorities in life are: > 1. Percy > 2. Percy > 3. Percy > 4. Ministry of Magic > 5. Percy > > Not only have we never seen him act bravely, we've never seen a boot > that he wouldn't lick or a back he wouldn't stab to get ahead. How > he got into Gryffindor, I've no idea, other than being a Weasely. > To me, Percy is all Slytherin. > It takes a lot of courage to go against your whole family, tell them they are wrong, and not give in. He may not have been right, but it still took a lot of guts... > > - Peter Pettigrew: I don't think we are ever told what house he was > in, but it was probably Gryffindor, given the crowd he hung out > with. And it almost definitely wasn't Slytherin, which means that > whatever it was, it was a mistake: clearly, the Rat is a Snake. > > Could you cut off your finger, and hide it behind your back while yelling at someone who has every reason to kill you? Or cut your arm off? He has guts. The whole "hide as a rat for 12 years" doesn't really fit in though, though to be fair, he did bite Goyle on the finger... > - Neville: Neville is certainly developing into a strong character, > and I'm confident that the next two books will dispel any doubts > that he should be in Gryffindor. But from what we know from books > 1 - 5, I'd say the preponderance of evidence suggests that > Hufflepuff is a better fit. > Give him credit: he tried to take out Crabbe and Goyle in a fist-fight singlehanded in the first book, and also stood up to the trio when they went to the PS. What he's been lacking is confidence, and he is starting to gain that back. > - Tom Riddle: Tom was such a friendly, noble young man, surely he > should have been in Hufflepuff? Haha, just kidding. > Probably not, but if I were a dark lord, being loyal & hardworking are right near the top of what I'd look for in minions... I've always wondered about Crabbe and Goyle, though. How exactly are they cunning and ambitious? Their main trait is loyalty to Malfoy, which suggests Hefflepuff, really... --Shanoah From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 01:07:29 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:07:29 -0000 Subject: Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: >>>>What happened at Godric's Hollow is key to the whole series. We know that much from JKR herself. The way the books are written, this means for us to find out, someone has to tell us. But who?<<<< Inge: I would put my bet on Lupin because Im sure he knows a lot more about what happened than he has yet told anyone. Why Lupin? Quoting POA (Bloomsbury) p. 140 - Harry telling Lupin about his experiences with the Dementors: 1)>>"'When they get near me ', Harry stared at Lupin's desk, his throat tight, 'I can hear Voldemort murdering my mom.' Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though he had made to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it. There was a moment's silence; then - 'Why did they have to come to the match?' said Harry bitterly. 'They're getting hungry', said Lupin coolly, shutting his briefcase with a snap."<< Now - I think the reason Lupin makes a move for Harry's shoulder is not to comfort him but because Lupin is scared to hear what's coming next. I think that Lupin at this point believes Harry to have heard something more - and I think Lupin is afraid - for what, I don't know. But it seems to me as he's trying to stop Harry from telling any more. As Harry doesn't continue to tell the 'next step' (because Harry doesn't know the next step) Lupin sort of relaxes - but still ends the conversation by snapping his briefcase shut. What did Lupin think Harry knew? What did Lupin know that brought Lupin to lose his composure - even if only shortly? Quoting POA (Bloomsbury) p. 178 - Harry and Lupin after yet another Patronus-practice: 2) >>"'I heard my dad', Harry mumbled. 'That's the first time I've ever heard him - he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it...' >>SNIP<< "'You heard James?' said Lupin, in a strange voice. 'Yeah... Why - you didn't know my dad, did you?' 'I - I did, as a matter of fact,' said Lupin. 'We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen Harry - perhaps we should leave it here for tonight....' SNIP<< Once again - Lupin seems surprised to learn that Harry heard his dad - as if it shouldn't be possible. Lupin knows more than he wants Harry to know. Why does Lupin start to stutter when he talks about James? Why does he suddenly want to end the Patronus-lesson when he learns about Harry hearing James? Yes, I think Lupin knows what happened - in details - at Godrics Hollow - and things didn't happen the way everyone else seem to believe they happened. So why doesn't Lupin speak up? What's he afraid of? But Im still sure Lupin is going to be the one who will tell Harry the true story about that night in GH. Inge From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 01:44:28 2005 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707014428.95219.qmail@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132149 Davenclaw: > So I'd like to > > start a thread to discuss where we think some > characters could or > > should have been sorted differently, based on what > we know so far. Well, the sorting would'nt really put anyone in any house unless it has thoroughly "searched" the individual himself. When i say "thoroughly" this includes all the potentials of the student which were'nt visible to everyone during their early years at Hogwarts. The Sorting Hat may have seen student's abilities which would come out in a later stage of thier lives. After all, being a sorting hat for quite a long time may have increased its expertise in sorting. Not to mention that always stands by its word. astrud __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 6 14:24:09 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question from a lurker... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706142409.84308.qmail@web80109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132150 paddyandnick wrote: >>I'm coming out of lurkdom to ask a question :) A friend and I are going to one of the midnight Half-Blood Prince parties at a local bookstore. She wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't figure out which house she belonged to. Her entry on Wikipedia says "unknown". Can anybody help? Thanks! I always figured she was in Hufflepuff. I know we have no canon, but she does seem particularly brainy or sly or brave. That leaves Hufflepuff. Hope this helps Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 01:56:57 2005 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707015657.77507.qmail@web32214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132151 Inge wrote: > Yes, I think Lupin knows what happened - in details > - at Godrics > Hollow - and things didn't happen the way everyone > else seem to believe > they happened. So why doesn't Lupin speak up? What's > he afraid of? > > But I am still sure Lupin is going to be the one who > will tell Harry the > true story about that night in GH. > Lupin, being a werewolf has made him a very cautious person. He has to watch himself at all times and is careful with what he has to say specially in delicate situations. He knows alot, but being the cautious person that he is, he knows when will be the right time to say it. If situations surrounding him aren't favorable enough for revelations then he'll keep quiet for a while. But all will be revealed when the right moment comes. astrud __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 02:18:17 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:18:17 -0000 Subject: Advanced Potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" wrote: > I know someone must have posted about this but my search > hasn't turned it up. The old copy of Advanced Potions seen on > the cover of one edition of HBP might well be another one of > 'Lord Voldemort's old school things', hence the connection to > CoS. If so, and it's in the Malfoy house, Draco may drag it out to > use it against Harry, or for some other nefarious purpose now > that Dad is in Azkaban. I do believe Jo has set up a huge conflict > between Harry and Snape, and this old text book is another > pointer in that direction as well. Did Voldemort use potions to > achieve much of his partial "immortality"? Is what Snape does > as a "spy" related to potions making? I'm sure someone else > has posted a more coherent theory in more convincing form; can > anyone tell me where? There's been nothing to explain what that book is other than what it looks like. I took it to mean Harry will be in Advanced Potions. The book certainly seems likely to point to a huge conflict between Snape and Harry. Snape doesn't want to see Harry ever again. A potion was at the center of Voldemort's latest revival. If Draco wanted to attack Harry with a potion, it probably wouldn't be hard to get his hands on Most Potent Potions or something of that ilk. Draco would like to try anything he can think of to hurt Harry, but the little weasel may not have the guts for it. His last few attempts at revenge haven't worked out too well, have they? A sneaky potion may be right up his alley. Jim Ferer From astrudschuck at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 02:14:05 2005 From: astrudschuck at yahoo.com (astrud schuck) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort and Patronus (formerly Voldemort's boggart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707021405.3556.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132153 > >Mira wrote: > >Along the same line of thought, I read somewhere an > >excellent theory that Voldemort would not be able > to > >produce a patronus, Voldemort has no need to do a Patronus because the Dementors are on his side. He has no fear of them, therefore doesn't need a patronus. astrud __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 7 02:24:11 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:24:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CC924B.2080803@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132154 > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > > Now, I don't know about that, its generally hard to tell, One can > read this scene quite a few ways, my take on it is at this point in > the scene: > > Roll Scene: > > "'Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. "He's a trusting > man, > > isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are > spots > > that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know > > what I mean?" > > Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left > forearm > > convulsively with his right hand, as though something on it had > hurt > > him. > > CUT SCENE: > OK, to me it looks like Snape had a very real reaction to what Fake > Moody said, as if he was shocked and scared. I don't see Snape as a > crying and whippering kind of person. He always seems very tightly > wound to me, like a spring, and whenever its at the breaking point > it does something really strange and sudden....meh, or..thats one > way of looking at it. > Though, your take is very resonable to, they do stare at each other > a lot, but that can also be seen as a test of wills, sizing up your > opponit. It just seems like, Snape already knows Moody and they > might butt heads much like he does with Sirius...but Moody is much > older, and sometimes Snape appears to have a problem with people his > own age and younger, and he tends to be more standoffish or willing > to back off quicker when its someone older or more experienced. Meh, > thats just one idea I suppose. > KarentheUnicorn Kathy writes: I have wondered if Snape grabbing his arm "as though something on it had hurt him" was just that. Perhaps it was similar to the pain in Harry's scar while talking to Umbridge. A matter of timing. Perhaps Voldemort happened to call his Deatheaters at that moment in time and Snape was forced to break off the conversation. I do like the Legilimency idea though and I am not a huge proponent of the Snape spying theory. It could be that V activated the mark at that time to torment Snape for not being available to him. We also know that Snape is now in the Order and has known the real Moody for some time. It could also be that this conversation warns Snape that something else is going on. I don't believe that Snape is afraid of Moody. KJ From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 7 02:36:35 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:36:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: <42CC924B.2080803@telus.net> References: <42CC924B.2080803@telus.net> Message-ID: <42CC9533.8050303@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132155 Kathryn Jones wrote: > Kathy writes: > > I have wondered if Snape grabbing his arm "as though something on > it had hurt him" was just that. Perhaps it was similar to the pain in > Harry's scar while talking to Umbridge. A matter of timing. Perhaps > Voldemort happened to call his Deatheaters at that moment in time and > Snape was forced to break off the conversation. I do like the > Legilimency idea though and I am not a huge proponent of the Snape > spying theory. It could be that V activated the mark at that time to > torment Snape for not being available to him. We also know that Snape > is now in the Order and has known the real Moody for some time. It > could also be that this conversation warns Snape that something else is > going on. I don't believe that Snape is afraid of Moody. > KJ Having given this the thought that I should have given it before I hit send, I find I may be having some trouble keeping events and books in order. Humble apologies. V. would not have called the DE yet, but the mark was heating up "all year". KJ From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 02:40:32 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707024032.19264.qmail@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132156 Shanoah Alkire: > Could you cut off your finger, and hide it behind > your back while > yelling at someone who has every reason to kill you? > Or cut your arm > off? Marozi: Not to mention milking venom from a giant snake. Peter might not be anyone's ideal Gryffindor, but he fits even less into any of the other houses. He's certainly not a Slytherin, as he displays an almost pathological lack of ambition. He was content to live for 13 years as a kid's pet. And not even a very GOOD pet - he slept all the time. And though he was gifted enough to become one of the youngest animagi ever, he was apparently such a chronic underachiever in school that McGonagall thought he was an idiot. He has at least moments of courage, but is not at all ambitious, intellectually curious, or loyal and hardworking. Thus, Gryffindor. ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 02:42:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:42:54 -0000 Subject: Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132157 Inge wrote: Quoting POA (Bloomsbury) p. 178 - Harry and Lupin after yet another Patronus-practice: 2) >>"'I heard my dad', Harry mumbled. 'That's the first time I've ever heard him - he tried to take on Voldemort himself, to give my mum time to run for it...' >>SNIP<< "'You heard James?' said Lupin, in a strange voice. 'Yeah... Why - you didn't know my dad, did you?' 'I - I did, as a matter of fact,' said Lupin. 'We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen Harry - perhaps we should leave it here for tonight....' SNIP<< Once again - Lupin seems surprised to learn that Harry heard his dad - as if it shouldn't be possible. Lupin knows more than he wants Harry to know. Why does Lupin start to stutter when he talks about James? Why does he suddenly want to end the Patronus-lesson when he learns about Harry hearing James? vmonte responds: This last scene has come up in discussion several times on this site. There are some fans that believe that Lupin is ESE (ever so evil) because of it. I'm not sure that Lupin is evil but I do get the impression that something is not quite right with Harry's idea of what he thinks he hears. First of all, Harry hears a man's voice and automatically assumes that the voice is of his dad. (In PoA he assumed he saw his father across the lake but it turned out to be himself via time travel.) Second, in the SS movie JKR approved an added scene that showed a flash back to what happened to Lily at GH but she told the director to omit James from the scene. Third, in PoA the movie, Harry is supposed to hear a man's voice during the dementor scene but this voice is not heard. You only hear Lily screaming. It makes me wonder if this voice is not heard for a reason. Is someone trying to hide the identity of that voice? Was James dead already? Does the voice belong to Snape? Lupin? Or someone else? Vivian From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 02:44:01 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort and Patronus (formerly Voldemort's boggart) In-Reply-To: <20050707021405.3556.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050707024401.97969.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132158 --- astrud schuck wrote: > Voldemort has no need to do a Patronus because the > Dementors are on his side. He has no fear of them, > therefore doesn't need a patronus. Hogwarts students were technically on the same side as the Dementors in PoA, yet Harry and Hermione were a few seconds away from being given the kiss. We know Dementors are blind and guided only by the emotions they sense. If the new Voldemort who shares Harry's blood is not immune to emotions anymore, then he might be as vulnerable to the Dementors as anybody else. Allies are not always the same as best friends, otherwise DEs wouldn't be so afraid of Voldemort himself. --- saraquel_omphale wrote: > I haven't read the original post, but I think the > moment that the > DEs escaped from Azkaban might produce a pretty good > patronus! It wasn't a theory I read on this list, although it might have appeared here too, before I subscribed. We might be back on technicalities: is genuine humor necessary to drive off a Boggart? Is 'positive' joy necessary to fight a Dementor? Would somebody be able to produce a patronus when recalling how happy they felt killing their mother-in-law? I'm not sure canon answers this conclusively yet. We know that Dementors can feed on 'negative-positive' emotions because DEs were kept in prison for many years before guards started switching loyalties. So it is in principle possible that Voldemort would be affected too. I can see why somebody might argue against this statement, but I am still supporting it, until further revelations. Mira ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 02:41:13 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:41:13 -0000 Subject: The Red-headed Weasley Clan (Was Re: If I were a sorting hat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132159 Davenclaw wrote: > > > - Percy: His priorities in life are: > 1. Percy > 2. Percy > 3. Percy > 4. Ministry of Magic > 5. Percy > > Not only have we never seen him act bravely, we've never seen a boot > that he wouldn't lick or a back he wouldn't stab to get ahead. How > he got into Gryffindor, I've no idea, other than being a Weasely. > To me, Percy is all Slytherin. > > smilingator: I would like to know how ALL 7 of the Weasleys ended up in Gryffindor. To have a family full of so many brave individuals... it makes me wonder what's in their blood. It is apparent that there can be interbreeding between "human-like" species (Hagrid being half giant, Fleur being part veela), but could there be interbreeding with other creatures? Marcus Flint was described as trollish, Madame Hooch as having eyes like an eagle. If so, then could it be possible that the Weasley's are part lion? In CoS, Molly was described as looking like a "saber-tooth tiger" (I know that is not the same thing as a lion). Other literary stories with lions have dealt with bravery (The Cowardly lion in the Wizard of Oz, Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia). Perhaps this is why Percy ended up in Gryffindor, even though he is highly ambitious. By the way, I think you should replace one of those "Percys" on your list with Penelope Clearwater... he did seem to like her. Just my thoughts... From lexical74 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:09:47 2005 From: lexical74 at yahoo.com (Brian Brinkman) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:09:47 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: snip Does the WW believe in God? snip...they celebrate Christmas with a dinner and exchange > presents, but nothing is ever heard about going to church or anything > like that. Any thoughts? > > Tania Brian here: Interesting thoughts. I guess they're even more interesting because of the divide among Christians about the books. Of course it's up to JKR to write this into the plot if she wants to, but some observations shared between us could be entertaining. The witchcraft presented in the books doesn't seem incompatible with most religions I know of. The negative knee-jerk reaction from some Christians toward the series probably stems from Biblical admonitions against soothsayers and witches (which, IMO is a way of God saying he doesn't want us distracted by these, they aren't the true path). Yet what JKR has presented doesn't seem like competition for most world religions. It would be interesting to find out whether or not JKR has formulated a make-believe theological explanation for the existence of wizards and muggles. Now, the short answer is this: No character has referenced God (or any other known ultimate reality), yet. No one has even said, "Oh God," or "Thank God." The closest we have is "Merlin," yet I stop short of thinking that Merlin worship is a feature of the WW. Yet, I have no solid reason for excluding that possibility. Yet Christmas and Easter remain, and the WW follows muggle traditions, and this is significant. On the other hand, Harry seems to have no spiritual internal dialogue. The narrative doesn't mention him thinking about ultimate reality. The thoughts and observations we've been privy to, so far, have been steadfastly secular, and that's significant. Then there's the interaction with Luna: "Have you..." he began. "I mean, who...has anyone you've known ever died?" "Yes," said Luna simply,..." and so on... a couple of lines later... "But I've stil got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" "Er--isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. (863, American ed.) Harry's reaction, to me, suggests several possibilities: A. He's trained in a religion that doesn't emphasize an afterlife. B. He has come to doubt a religion that does. C. He has received little or no religious training. If it is significant that wizards have celebrated Christmas and Easter and it's also significant that the overt contents of the books have been steadfastly secular, then it seems that the role of real world religions has been calculatedly subdued. Why? For one thing, mainstream western Christianity just isn't compatible with anything called "witchcraft." So it would make it more difficult than it is already for a large bloc of readers to suspend disbelief. Another thing is JKR's own religious temperament. That she is a liberal Protestant seems likely. She probably just wasn't interested in writing a formally religious tale. Imagine what kind of mindset it takes to write formally religious tales. Spiritual matters must be foremost in the author's mind. The HP stories seem more interested in the observable events that happen in and on the world. The tales are mundane (more at the word's etymology than it's current negative connotation). Even though the events in the WW are extraordinary they are, so far, this-worldly. One last significant point is that JKR has been careful to avoid references that would make the WW hostile to or with most mainstream religions. There are no pagan worship scenes, nothing really for defenders of faiths to get their hooks into. Some of it is undoubtedly calculated, but most is a byproduct of her own flights of fancy. Just my own views! From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:14:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:14:45 -0000 Subject: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132161 Saraquel wrote: In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think about: "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't Voldemort die?" Not, "Why did Harry live?" but, "Why didn't Voldemort die?" The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn't he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die? but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy." vmonte responds: Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this up?) Vivian From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:20:07 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:20:07 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: <42CC924B.2080803@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132162 > > Kathy writes: > > I have wondered if Snape grabbing his arm "as though something on > it had hurt him" was just that. Perhaps it was similar to the pain in > Harry's scar while talking to Umbridge. A matter of timing. Perhaps > Voldemort happened to call his Deatheaters at that moment in time and > Snape was forced to break off the conversation. I do like the > Legilimency idea though and I am not a huge proponent of the Snape > spying theory. It could be that V activated the mark at that time to > torment Snape for not being available to him. We also know that Snape > is now in the Order and has known the real Moody for some time. It > could also be that this conversation warns Snape that something else is > going on. I don't believe that Snape is afraid of Moody. > KJ KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Hum..I don't know, why would Voldemort do that? It doesn't make since to me. It seems more a reaction to what Moody said, more than Voldemort being involved? Maybe it could be that he was trying to torture Snape for not being there or calling his death eaters to him...I really don't know. Does Voldemort have that good of timing to--at the very moment Fake Moody is saying something about Spots that don't come off, (which obviously he is talking about the tattoo of the Dark Mark). To then send out a signal, Is Voldemort seeing though Fake Moody's eyes? Meh, I don't know, but I don't think his timing is that good if he isn't, he would have to know exactly when Fake Moody said that statment, and thats the only thing I know that statment to mean. Also if Snape is Loyal to Voldemort why is Fake M searching his office. Fake Moody he must realize he is not going to get caught. Snape only comes out of bed because he heard the egg wailing and the noise. I'm sure Snape has known Moody for a long time, but, obviously we don't see his real reaction to the real Moody...or at least I can't remember any showing of it. I also remember near the begining of the book, I think Harry noticed that Snape was avoiding or was very warry of Moody. I also remember them talking about Moody as he was very suspect of everyone and everything, Was this fake moody or real moody they were talking about?? Was he this way before Fake took over, that is what I really want to know. Obviously, if Moody worked for the Order then he would know Snape was a death eater. So, either that comment about Spots that don't come off is a REAL sort of comment Moody might make to Snape, or either, its a comment that is unusual, that would surprise Snape. So either way, would that cause Snape to react in a physical way, as to grab his arm, without even thinking about it. If the Dark Mark is such a touchy symbol, if Snape is ashamed of it or doesn't like it talked about in public, I would say, it might cause him to have a physical react to someone talking about it openly in that way. Meh, maybe Voldemort was calling them at that moment, I just don't read it that way, sorry, I read it as a reaction to what Moody just said to him. Is Snape scared of Moody, maybe I was implying to much as far as scared, maybe I meant to say guarded respect. Scared doesn't mean you are a little girl hiding under the bed, being scare of someone doesn't mean you run away from them, it just means you are aware they can inflict pain on you..and you want to watch out and guard yourself when you are around them. Ss I said above I though I remembered them saying something about Snape being wary or avoiding Moody. I just don't see the argument on the stares as being something between friends, he was hissing at Moody, as if, there may be old feelings between them....Since Snape was a death Eater, could he not have been on Moody's hit list at one time, before he switched sides?? If auror's knew to look for Death Eaters, wouldn't they know Snape was one, since, I though I remembered some talk of a trial for Snape, so, more than a couple people were obviously aware he was a death eater, even if it is not wider public knowledge. KarentheUnicorn From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:22:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:22:07 -0000 Subject: The Red-headed Weasley Clan (Was Re: If I were a sorting hat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132163 Davenclaw wrote: Percy: His priorities in life are: > 1. Percy > 2. Percy > 3. Percy > 4. Ministry of Magic > 5. Percy Not only have we never seen him act bravely, we've never seen a boot that he wouldn't lick or a back he wouldn't stab to get ahead. How he got into Gryffindor, I've no idea, other than being a Weasely. To me, Percy is all Slytherin. smilingator: I would like to know how ALL 7 of the Weasleys ended up in Gryffindor. To have a family full of so many brave individuals... it makes me wonder what's in their blood. vmonte now: I don't think that Percy is a coward. What he is doing is wrong, but I don't see him as a coward. I have a feeling that Percy will do the right thing in the end. (Unfortunately, probably after his mother dies trying to save his sorry ass.) Vivian From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:40:00 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:40:00 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's Snare (was:Mild TBAY, trying to answer JK's Edinburgh questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132164 Well Janeway, we certainly think alike!! I have been toying with snake ideas for ages, but have been unable to come up with anything that hangs together. But you putting down all these references has spurred me on to think again, thanks for that. >Janeway wrote: >So maybe he also provided some kind of time- >persistent magical >protection for his last surviving descendant in case his line was >ever in danger of disappearing completely. (All my quotes come from the British editions) No, I don't think Slytherin did that. I think that LV protected himself from the AK curse, although he is still unsure why he survived and remarks in the graveyard that "it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked." If he had found something in the COS, he would have known that he was immune to the AK curse. We also know that he last entered the COS when he was 16, COS p230 "I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self " He afterwards became Head Boy and must still have looked like Tom Riddle, not the snake like appearance of LV. So I think that the protection from the AK curse came about afterwards. >Janeway wrote: >My guess is that the quest for immortality required LV to develop >his natural affinity for snakes to some extreme degree. Snakes are >associated with eternal life in Eastern cultures* Yes, I agree, the snake for some reason is associated with immortality. So, we both agree that the snake is central to the immortality bit of LV. >Janeway wrote: >We know that Slytherin wanted to "purge the school of all who >were unworthy to study magic." (COS 151 US paper) Maybe he had >similar plans for the entire WW --"cleansing" it of impure types and >putting pure-bloods in charge Now, this is where my thinking took off, the whole notion of blood. Tom Riddle hates his father's blood, so he does experiments to rid himself of his muggle blood, replacing it with snake blood, as in some sort of blood transfusion. >Janeway wrote: >Yucky thought: what if the snake is literally growing inside of >Harry and will eventually try to shed its Harry "skin"? Then >Snake!Harry would emerge as something like LV. (This would explain >something I've wondered about: Why does DD say " suffering >like this proves you are still a man!" (OOP p824 US hardcover). Why >doesn't he just say it "proves you are a man/human." Does >"still" imply that someday he may not be?) I really liked this notion. Maybe this is what happened with the snake blood in LV, it gradually took over and transformed the muggle blood into snake blood. Snakes are cold blooded creatures. I once heard that when tickling for trout (catching trout fish with your bare hands) that you first have to cool your hand to the temperature of the river, otherwise you burn the cold blooded fish. When Quirrel/LV touches Harry in PS this is what happens: PS p213 "Quirrel let go of him. he looked around wildly to see where Quirrell had gone and saw him hunched in pain, looking at his fingers ? they were blistering before his eyes." And again lower down the page Harry looks at Quirrell's hands and describes them, "they looked burnt, raw, red and shiny." In GoF, when LV finally does touch Harry in the graveyard, his finger is cold. So toying with the notion of cold blooded and warm blooded, warm or hot blooded is often used to describe people whose emotions run high and cold blooded used to describe people who seem to have no emotion or no empathy/compassion. Now, to me, LV has always seemed a rather disappointing cut out character. I think it's very relevant that it is Nagini's venom that keeps him alive. Venom is only poisonous ? it has no redeeming qualities and LVs limited emotional range in GoF reflects this. Only after some of Harry's blood has been used to revive him, do we hear that LV has been happy, (Sorry can't find the exact reference) when the DEs escape from Azkaban. The protection given to Harry by his muggle mother, Lily, also concerns blood. Her muggle blood is running in his veins. OotP p 736 DD says "She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day." LV now has some of this in his body. Therefore Lily is in LV. Although, LV can now touch Harry, he has also re-introduced some muggle blood into himself. As to where this can take us, I'm not sure. My brain hurts . I need to take a break! Saraquel From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 03:57:38 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:57:38 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132165 Hello fellow HP fans: I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get some insight for. Sorry if this has been discussed in previous posts. 1. I am finishing up reading CoS and a thought occured to me. Since Hagrid's name was cleared and we know he wasn't resposible for opening the Chamber why isn't he allowed to use magic now? "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic..." OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) 2. If Harry gets an official warning from the MoM for the pudding Dobby made levitate in Cos pg 19 (US Paperback) how do they not keep track of the number of instances where Hagrid uses magic illegally? (Ex. using an engorgment charm on the pumpkins in CoS or giving Dudley a pig tail in SS). Comments Thoughts? Ehren (is very sad because she works all day on July 16th and her new book will be sitting at the house waiting to be read) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 04:06:38 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 04:06:38 -0000 Subject: Harry Killing in HBP (was re: Violence) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132166 John wrote: > Harry's *having* to kill somebody (besides Voldie) strikes me as > unlikely. Remember how in the MOM battle even the Death Eaters didn't > use Avada Kedavra? Between "stupify," "impedimenta," and > "expelliarmus," there really isn't much reason to use a killing spell > (a possible exception being that AK apparently can't be blocked). I > take this to be the reason that Avada Kedavra is illegal, period: the > only reason to use it is that you want to outright kill someone, not > just stop him. I was wondering if another possible use might be to lift an Imperius Curse? We see cases in the books where people fight it off, and cases where the victims are freed by the death of the caster (maybe-this defense was used by some DEs who claimed to have been Imperio'd by LV). But we have not been shown a counter-curse, and it would seem that once the curse has been successfully applied a mere "Stupefy". (Since, for example, Crouch Jr. remains Imperiused for long periods, during which his father doubtless sleeps...) --zgirnius From brossiter at dc.rr.com Thu Jul 7 04:31:14 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (Britt Rossiter) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:31:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CCB012.7050901@dc.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132167 Brian wrote: ><< snip >>> Now, the short answer is this: No character has referenced God (or any other known ultimate reality), yet. No one has even said, "Oh God," or "Thank God." The closest we have is "Merlin," yet I stop short of thinking that Merlin worship is a feature of the WW. Yet, I have no solid reason for excluding that possibility. > >Yet Christmas and Easter remain, and the WW follows muggle traditions, and this is significant. << snip >> > > brossiter responds: Don't forget that Harry himself was christened, as confirmed by JKR on her website, an event Sirius, as Harry's godfather, attended. This is a little bit of evidence (mind you, just a little) of Christian-oriented wizards, though - tellingly - it's not in the books, most likely to avoid too many potentially offended sensibilities. I can understand how secular wizards in the WW might exchange presents at Christmas and the like, but I find it harder to see why secular folk would go to great pains to christen their child (and it was something that was done deliberately, and at great risk, given JKR's statement that it was a "hurried" affair in light of LV's pursuit of them). Even if the Potters' decision to have Harry christened, in the face of that risk, was a nod to tradition as opposed to an expression of faith, then where did the tradition come from? Lily's Muggle family? Petunia Evans Dursley does not strike me as the product of a deeply devout Christian upbringing. From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 05:02:14 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 05:02:14 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ehren" wrote: > Hello fellow HP fans: > > > 1. I am finishing up reading CoS and a thought occured to me. Since > Hagrid's name was cleared and we know he wasn't resposible for > opening the Chamber why isn't he allowed to use magic now? > > "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic..." > OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) smilingator: I've read OoP twice and each time I got to that part, I took it to mean that Hagrid and Olympe weren't using magic because they did not want to draw attention to themselves (well, no more than the unusually tall companions would have gotten). But now that I re-read that statement, I do see that Hagrid was saying that he's not allowed to use magic at all. Maybe he shouldn't be using it because he never was really trained to use it (he didn't even finish 3 years of schooling). More likely though, I think JKR may have made a blooper. I mean, if it's okay for him to TEACH at a school for wizards, I would think it'd be okay for him to use a little magic! Ehren wrote: 2. If Harry gets an official warning from the MoM for the pudding > Dobby made levitate in Cos pg 19 (US Paperback) how do they not keep > track of the number of instances where Hagrid uses magic illegally? > (Ex. using an engorgment charm on the pumpkins in CoS or giving > Dudley a pig tail in SS). > > Comments Thoughts? smilingator: What always struck me odd about this was that Harry received a letter accusing him of using the Hover charm in CoS when it was in fact Dobby. It seemed to me that the owl mail system (which could find Harry wherever he was at the beginning of SS/PS) is much more accurate than the MoM and its monitoring of underage magic. Along the same lines, how did Lily get away with "turning teacups into rats" as Petunia described in Ch.4 of SS/PS? Were students not monitored back then (although the Decree banning Underage Wizadry was written in 1875) or was Lily not considered underage? And I'm sure Fred and George have been doing a little magic of their own over the years. If anyone should have been expelled for using magic illegally, it should have been those two (though I would never want that to happen to them!) Ehren wrote: > Ehren (is very sad because she works all day on July 16th and her new > book will be sitting at the house waiting to be read) smilingator: Sorry Ehren! I will be taking a graduate course that weekend and I'm trying to figure out how to smuggle the 682 page book into my class to read. Any ideas?? ;) From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 20:40:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:40:10 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132169 bboyminn wrote: Actually, Occlumency is the ability to block you mind from intrusion. Legilimency is the ability to 'intrude' into other people's mind. The problem is that much of fandom has made assumptions about these things that aren't supported by the books. Many fans take them to be one and the same, but, of course, they are not. Some fans have leap to the conclusion that if you have one then you automatically have the other; again, not true, not supported by the books. vmonte responds: Thanks for correcting me. I always get the two confused. And I agree with you that Snape's gift is in Occlumency not Legilimency. Vivian From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 16:09:44 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:09:44 -0000 Subject: HBP - What's to Come? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132170 Being that I am getting excited for the big day, I've started compiling my thoughts for what I believe will happen in HBP. I know that generally, these things have been discussed many times, but I wanted to put my thoughts together and to read some of your compliled thoughts on HBP as well. With that said, my preditions follow. In General I think that HBP will continue with a dark theme similar to that of OOP; however, in regards to Harry, I am thinking (and hoping) that he has come to terms with some of his anger issues. Now that he knows the full story of what is going on around him, I think this is much more possible that it was in the past. He will struggle with the idea of being "the one that can vanquish the Dark Lord," but possibly (by the middle of the book), he will come to terms with that and accept that this is his destiny. He may get some intense training from Dumbledore and possibly Snape on some very advance magic, as everyone already knows he is capable of - corporeal patronus. Romance The tension between Ron and Hermione will continue to mount - although I think this will move to a more non-argumentative tension. Near the end of the book, I see a few kisses coming on between them. As for Harry, I hope that Ginny is the one for him. Although, Ginny will most likey move from boyfriend to boyfriend throughout book 6 until realizing that she still cares for Harry. I do believe that Harry will start seeing Ginny as someone more than just "Ron's sister" before Ginny starts liking Harry again. I think that Ginny is very good for Harry. There was possible foreshadowing in OOP when Ginny proved to be the only one who could get Harry out of the funk he was in over the "possession" misunderstanding. His occasional anger outburts did not ruffle her feathers like it did the others. I do hope they get together by the end of this book and continue to book 7 - getting even more steady and serious. grindieloe From brossiter at dc.rr.com Thu Jul 7 05:26:04 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (Britt Rossiter) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:26:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CCBCEC.90705@dc.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132171 smilingator wrote: << snip >> More likely though, I think JKR may have made a blooper. I mean, if it's okay for him to TEACH at a school for wizards, I would think it'd be okay for him to use a little magic! << snip >> brossiter responds: Depends upon what he's teaching, which in Hagrid's case is Care of Magical Creatures, which might involve a fair amount of brute force and aminal knowhow, but little magic. I think the reason Hagrid isn't allowed to use magic is because he isn't properly trained, regardless of his record being cleared. After all, just because one reaches the age of 16 (in the U.S.) does not mean one automatically can receive a licence to drive - one needs to learn how first. Maybe Hogwarts offers remedial courses, or Hagrid could enrol in a Kwikspell course. :) smilingator wrote: << snip >> What always struck me odd about this was that Harry received a letter accusing him of using the Hover charm in CoS when it was in fact Dobby. It seemed to me that the owl mail system (which could find Harry wherever he was at the beginning of SS/PS) is much more accurate than the MoM and its monitoring of underage magic. << snip >> brossiter responds: I think that the fact Harry keeps being discovered regarding his "use," or suspected use, of underage magic is a factor of his being so closely monitored, as compared to other wizards, as evidenced by Mrs. Figg's presence in the neighborhood, etc. Though there is not much canon to support this, I strongly suspect the MoM was aware of not only the prophecy, but its connection to Harry and Harry's placement at Privet Drive by Dumbledore, and as a result has somehow devised a way to monitor magical activity occuring at No. 4 Privet Drive a lot more closely than that occuring elsewhere. (Remember, Fudge knew pretty quickly that no other wizards resided in Little Whinging - "We've always monitored that fairly closely...") The fact that the MoM messed up in CoS regarding who actually performed the hover charm is, IMHO, JKR's softening us up to the notion that the MoM is far from perfect, frequently gets the facts wrong, and is not to be trusted, a lesson driven home hard in OotP. smilingator wrote: << snip >> Along the same lines, how did Lily get away with "turning teacups into rats" as Petunia described in Ch.4 of SS/PS? Were students not monitored back then (although the Decree banning Underage Wizadry was written in 1875) or was Lily not considered underage? And I'm sure Fred and George have been doing a little magic of their own over the years. If anyone should have been expelled for using magic illegally, it should have been those two (though I would never want that to happen to them!) brossiter responds: Again, it's a question of how closely Harry is monitored compared to Lily Evans, and Fred and George Weasley. JKR has actually answered the question about turning teacups into rats on her website; she states that Petunia was "exaggerating a little," but also that Lily did get "a few warning letters." Nothing in Canon suggests that Fred and George Weasley haven't gotten any warning letters. The Weasley twins do, however, live in a household with numerous wizards, and this house in a part of the country where other wizarding families exist, both of which differentiate it from Little Whinging. In light of these differences, it would be unreasonable for the MoM to make any assumption that ANY magical activity occuring at the Burrow would be a potential Statute of Secrecy violation. (Then again, it's been a long time since one could use the phrases "MoM" and "reasonable" in the same sentence.) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 06:52:56 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 06:52:56 -0000 Subject: God in the WW/Draco as underdog/Alchemist Theory in Two Acts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: > Geoff: > Even so, the fact is that they both engage in > > activity on occasions which is questionable - or downright rotten > > Alla: > > Questionable - absolutely. Downright rotten - I am not so sure about. > > > Geoff: > > Harry joins in the attack > > on Draco after the Quidditch match; he looks into Snape's Pensieve; > > he smashes up Dumbledore's office. > > > Alla: > > The key difference between them to me is intent . Draco's bad > actions all come from desire to hurt the other people . You know, > calling Hermione names, spitting death threats in GoF, etc. > > Those actions of Harry you cited were caused by : > > responding to what Draco did, > curiosity, > and the fact that Harry was in pain. > > > Now, again, I am not arguing that Harry is a saint, of course not, > but I cannot concede that they both have equal amount of flaws. Geoff: Nowhere have I implied that they have equal amounts of flaws. In my previous message, I wrote: "I can remember doing things in my teens, sometimes in anger and sometimes by calculation, which I much prefer to forget about in hindsight and consign to the dustbin of personal history. Both Harry and, possibly more so, Draco have had moments like this. Harry joins in the attack on Draco after the Quidditch match; he looks into Snape's Pensieve; he smashes up Dumbledore's office. But these balance out against the positive things he does as a relatively normal growing teenager. With Draco, the balance is perhaps the other way some of it perhaps coming from the frustration of not being able to best Harry at situations where he wants to be top dog." Which I think implies that Draco is worse. The fact that Harry responded to Draco in the Quidditch incident in no way excuses his behaviour with the twins. He was on the receiving end of group bullying when he was still at school in Little Whinging and should know better than the others to avoid this sort of lamentable behaviour. It is very out of character with his normal view of things; he has had run-ins with Malfoy before and never descended this far. I take a far more critical view of /Snape's/ attitudes to Harry; he is a responsible adult who picks on a pupil and, in so doing, sets a dreadful example for guys like Draco who use him as a role model. Draco is impressionable. He could go either way - to the good or to the evil side. I just hope that other, better, influences might come to bear on him rather than those of Snape and his father. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:57:24 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:57:24 -0000 Subject: the elder Nott and wizard longevity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "frugalarugala" (Message 132118) wrote: > I don't have access to my books at the moment, so... Does it >actually say in them that the Death Eater Nott, who's described >as "elderly" is the father of Theo Nott? Or are we, and/or Harry, >just assuming? "K": >From JKR's website: ~snip~ As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's. However, in this scene Theodore's father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of 'Order of the Phoenix') goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own. ~snip~ http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=5 From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Jul 7 07:40:49 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 07:40:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132174 > SSSusan wrote: > This certainly makes SENSE -- that is, that the way a Boggart works > is by some mechanism similar to Legilimency. But still, I'm > wondering whether we can make this assumptive leap. It may be > something *similar* to the effect of Legilimency, but IS it actually > a form of Legilimency? And even if it is something related, do we > know that Occlumency would work to stop it? > > I'm not convinced it works that way. In fact, I think a > Boggart "works" on everyone it "sees." (Heck, we don't even know > that it DIDN'T turn into whatever Moody's boggarts always turn into, > do we? [Away from books -- could be wrong!]) > vmonte responds: > I agree with SSSusan. I think that a Boggart will work on everyone > (except on those that do not have fears--it's a small number of > people for sure). > Julia here: Well, when I've read this theory something comletly different came to my mind... IMO the closest thing to Boggart - something that "works" in the same way (and probably not on a base of legilimency) is the mirror of Erised. When we look in this mirror we see our deepest and truest desires and when we look at the Boggart we see our deepest and truest fears... I think that these two "things" can be compared. And when we know that Dumbledore who is a master in occlumency sees something in the mirror (maybe socks, but I'm not quite sure :D) than we can assume that the Boggart wont probably have any problems with transforming into something that DD fears... And I dont agree with vmonte cause IMO EVERYBODY has some fears, smaller or bigger but still they exists, and the whole funny thing about Boggarts is that they can show us (and others too! - mrs weasley's boggart) what our greatest weakness is... Julia From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 10:13:01 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:13:01 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132175 "davenclaw" roleplayed Sorting Hat: > > - Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for > Ravenclaw. And while she's no coward (and I have a feeling that HBP > is going to showcase a particularly brave action), let's face it: > her over-riding personality characteristics are intelligence and > studiousness. I say, put her in Ravenclaw. Finwitch: She's studious, yes. Why? To satisfy her ambition but more importantly, because she's afraid to fail. No - as much as she studies and appreciates academical knowledge, she's not really, deep inside, all *that* fit for Ravenclaw. A typical Ravenclaw, I believe, enjoys studying for the sake of studying... not Hermione. (they say it's the best...) > - Percy: His priorities in life are: > 1. Percy > 2. Percy > 3. Percy > 4. Ministry of Magic > 5. Percy > > Not only have we never seen him act bravely, we've never seen a boot > that he wouldn't lick or a back he wouldn't stab to get ahead. How > he got into Gryffindor, I've no idea, other than being a Weasely. > To me, Percy is all Slytherin. Finwitch: Well, yes he *does* have one quality that Slytherin valued. He's certainly ambitious. However, as Ron put it, Percy loves rules. He would not 'use any means to achieve his goal' even if he would (and has) sacrificed his family. And as others have pointed out, turning against his family, even moving out - it is brave. > - Peter Pettigrew: I don't think we are ever told what house he was > in, but it was probably Gryffindor, given the crowd he hung out > with. And it almost definitely wasn't Slytherin, which means that > whatever it was, it was a mistake: clearly, the Rat is a Snake. Finwitch: Snakes eat rats. Pettigrew has the Slytherin quality of saving his own skin first (rats ARE survivors), BUT of course, he definately lacks ambition. His lazyness, deviousness and disloyalty exclude Hufflepuff, and he seems to have been pretended to be stupid-- he doesn't fit. Besides, I'd say that cutting off ones own a hand IS a brave thing to do. > - Neville: Neville is certainly developing into a strong character, > and I'm confident that the next two books will dispel any doubts > that he should be in Gryffindor. But from what we know from books > 1 - 5, I'd say the preponderance of evidence suggests that > Hufflepuff is a better fit. Finwitch: Dear Neville is anything but a coward. To me, his bravery and chivalry are exemplary. Courage is not lack of fear, it's about doing what's right despite of it. Lack of fear is called foolhardiness or stupidity - Neville is neither. Being someone who regularly faces his worst fears (Snape, flying, whatever) just to get an education, stands up to his friends (who have more skill and might than he does on top of that), confesses to writing the passwords knowing he'll be in big trouble for it etc. There's no need to risk one's life or break rules to do brave deeds. Not that Neville would hesitate to take the risk when needed -- he just hasn't hasn't seen the need until OOP where he fought by Harry's side in MOM against Death Eaters (and Neville certainly knows what they can do). As I see it, if Neville's not brave enough to be in Gryffindor (as the inconfident Neville says himself) the house would have been empty since the founding of Hogwarts, because Neville has always, in every single book, done ALWAYS what he deems right despite of his fears or to avoid the upcoming unpleasantness - he only showed poor judgement in writing down passwords (a lesson he's learned now - never write down the secret unless you plan to reveal it)... Now - I see Neville as the examplary Gryffindor - Luna Lovegood as the exemplary Ravenclaw as her desire and love of learning goes way beyond school-books and common opinions (no one's proven that crumble- horned Snorkacks don't exist. Not that they do, either, BUT - it is not logical to assume without proper evidence. You get the evidence THEN conclude. Besides, I think that Lovegoods DO take the principle of assuming innocent until proven guilty to the heart). Besides, Luna did beat Hermione in a battle of wits... (I loved that 'Excuse me. My father is the editor') - and Hermione's very careful not to express her negative opinions to Luna... OR her attitude about her lost (stolen) stuff: 'never mind, they always show up anyway'. She's not spending her time freaking out over mere objects... Cedric Diggory was the exemplary Hufflepuff (as Dumbledore said)... Now: who's the examplary Slytherin? Tom Riddle, a Malfoy (father or son, take your pick) or Severus Snape? Or Phineas Nigellus? Or have we yet to see this person? Finwitch From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 10:34:15 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:34:15 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132176 Sorry Davenclaw, I can't help but butt in again > > Del: > > The problem is not the TT!people seeing their past selves. It's the > > other way around: the past selves seeing the TT!people. As Hermione > > explains to Harry, if past!Harry saw TT!Harry, he would most probably > > assume that some dark magic was at work, and he might attack TT! Harry > > before any explanation could be given. > > Davenclaw: > If there is no way to "change" the past, but only to "participate" in > it, then wouldn't the TT-Harry already know if he had encountered his > TT-self? Then we would see this conversation: > > Harry: "Let's use the time-turner!" > Hermione: "Okay, but you can't let your past self see your time- > traveling self!" > Harry: "Well, if I had seen my TT-self, I would know now, wouldn't I? > But in the past three hours, I never saw another me. So there's > nothing to worry about!" > Hermione: "Oh... well... but maybe that's only because you're going to > be careful!" > Harry: "Well, if we already know I'm going to be careful, then you > don't need to tell me to be careful, do you?" > Hermione: "I suppose not... but be careful, just the same!" JLV: Exactly. Harry didn't run out because Hermione warned him not to, so he didn't run out, so he never saw himself run out. You have it exactly right. Where is the problem? Is it the `backwards' or `circular' causation /still/? > Davenclaw: > Now, just so we understand, since you are saying that the past can't > be changed, but only fulfilled, then the only reason you would use the > TT would be to witness or participate in a different set of events > than your non-TT self. So Hermione can be in two classes at once. > You would NEVER say "well, what just happened was really awful, let's > go change it!" Because then you would say, "Well, it just happened, > period, so if I choose to go back, it means that either going back > will cause it, or at least not prevent it, so I can't change things, > or else they would be changed." So if something bad happened, you > wouldn't bother going back. JLV: Exactly right ? now I think we're getting somewhere! Except the `going back would cause it' thing. Going back wouldn't have caused it if you never did go back > Davenclaw: > And if something good happened, you might > say "Well, I'm so glad things turned out that way... but what if the > only reason things worked out is because I used the time-turner to > change them? JLV: Oh no! There is no `change' about it! Rid your mind of the word. There /is/ no change. Harry and Hermione just provide an extra set of hands to do the rescuing ? hands with a really fabulous alibi! That is the point of the time-turner in this situation. They do *not* change anything. There really is nothing more complex happening here. > Davenclaw: > Well, I just won't bother, since things turned out as > they did, so whatever decision I make now won't change things." JLV: Just because a decision can't `change' things, doesn't mean a decision can't affect things. Really, you use the word change very lightly. Carefully consider what change means ? can you change things? Or were you caused to do something that had a certain effect? I may think I have no `free' will (as I said before) ? my interactions with everything are governed by logic and laws of nature etc ? but I haven't give up because I don't think I can `change' anything. I do have effects ? this post for one ? but I think I write this, say, because some complex interaction in my brain occurred. To some extent the future is determined by past events. Choices and change are a bit like names we give to some events but there isn't anything special about things which we call `choices' or `decisions' really ? they are just events like anything else. > Davenclaw: > So no one would actually ever use the time-turner, since they would > never know that it was necessary in order to bring about events as > they occured, unless they saw something when they weren't time- > traveling that tipped them off to the presence of their time- traveling > selves. Or in this case, something tipped off Dumbledore. JLV: I don't think the conclusion is that no-one would ever use the time- turner. How else could Hermione get to all her lessons? How else could someone be in two places `at once'? How else would Harry and Hermione have an alibi for the Sirius rescue? And note that Harry *was* tipped off by his counterpart to cast the Patronus. You seem to be upset by the conspiracy of circumstance well remember that in fiction, conspiracy of circumstance is often the bread and butter of a good plot. I see no need for what I consider to be worse conspiracies (Dumbledore casting the patronus first) and logical inconsistencies involving the overwriting of the past. > Davenclaw: > I think this is my last post on the topic... JLV: So I have the last word Seriously, I'm very disappointed that myself and my fellow posters couldn't make you think about this differently. But I'm also glad you raised the point so I could have so much fun thinking about it! Anyone interested about reading more about the philosophy and real- life physics of time-travel would do well to consult: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-travel-phys/ But be warned some bits are a bit (i.e very) technical. But some parts can be read by those with a non-physics background. And Davenclaw, I here quote from the conclusion of this article which is relevant to this debate: "If time travel entailed contradictions then the issue would be settled. And indeed, most of the stories employing time travel in popular culture are logically incoherent: one cannot "change" the past to be different from what it was, since the past (like the present and the future) only occurs once. But if the only requirement demanded is logical coherence, then it seems all too easy. A clever author can devise a coherent time-travel scenario in which everything happens just once and in a consistent way." I think this `too easy' point is part of your concern, but I have no reason to think that this is a problem or, ideed, a clue in the books that something else happened first. After all, it /is/ fiction. What I am saying is that the time travel scenario is just fine the way it is. There is *no* `hidden' sequence of events necessary to make sense of the plot, and the plot *wouldn't* make sense if in fact we had the scenario you described. JLV xx From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 10:47:40 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:47:40 -0000 Subject: Time-turning was to have MORE time (was The point of Time-Turning) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132177 Davenclaw wrote: "If there is no way to "change" the past, but only to "participate" in it, then wouldn't the TT-Harry already know if he had encountered his TT-self?" Del replies: Well, PoA answered your question, didn't it? Harry DID see his TT-self, but he doesn't realise it. And sure enough he thought that something not-normal was happening: he thought he saw his dead father. Davenclaw wrote: "Now, just so we understand, since you are saying that the past can't be changed, but only fulfilled, then the only reason you would use the TT would be to witness or participate in a different set of events than your non-TT self. So Hermione can be in two classes at once. You would NEVER say "well, what just happened was really awful, let's go change it!"" (snip) "So no one would actually ever use the time-turner, since they would never know that it was necessary in order to bring about events as they occured, unless they saw something when they weren't time- traveling that tipped them off to the presence of their time-traveling selves. Or in this case, something tipped off Dumbledore." Del replies: Once again, PoA answered your question already. In both cases of time-turning that we know of, it was NEVER a matter of CHANGING or fulfilling anything. It was just a matter of MORE TIME. Hermione needed more time to take her additional classes, and if my memory serves me well (I don't have my PoA book), DD said that "they needed more time". In both cases, it was only a matter of stealing some time, it was NEVER a matter of changing or fulfilling anything, even if the kids thought differently. They thought they were going to change what happened to Sirius and Buckbeak, but this is NOT what DD said: he only said that in order to save Sirius, they needed more time... Changing things was the consequence of using the TT, it wasn't the cause of it. Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 10:58:05 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:58:05 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Boggart - My theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132178 Julia here: Well, when I've read this theory something comletly different came to my mind... IMO the closest thing to Boggart - something that "works" in the same way (and probably not on a base of legilimency) is the mirror of Erised. When we look in this mirror we see our deepest and truest desires and when we look at the Boggart we see our deepest and truest fears... I think that these two "things" can be compared. And when we know that Dumbledore who is a master in occlumency sees something in the mirror (maybe socks, but I'm not quite sure :D) than we can assume that the Boggart wont probably have any problems with transforming into something that DD fears... And I dont agree with vmonte cause IMO EVERYBODY has some fears, smaller or bigger but still they exists, and the whole funny thing about Boggarts is that they can show us (and others too! - mrs weasley's boggart) what our greatest weakness is... vmonte responds: The mirror and the boggart can be compared for sure. And doesn't DD say that the happiest man would look in the mirror and just see himself? As far as the boggart comment I made. What I said was that a boggart would affect everyone that had fears (which is most everyone). The only person I could possible see coming to grips with his fears at the end of the series is Harry. That's just MO, of course. Vivian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 10:58:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:58:49 -0000 Subject: The Red-headed Weasley Clan (Was Re: If I were a sorting hat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132179 smilingator wrote: "I would like to know how ALL 7 of the Weasleys ended up in Gryffindor." Del replies: Personally, I think they just all WANTED to go to Gryffindor, so the Sorting Hat obliged. I think it's just a Weasley family tradition, just like the Blacks and the Malfoys go to Slytherin. For all we know, maybe the Sorting Hat DID offer Slytherin to Percy, but 11-year-old Percy got all in a huff at this suggestion and refused it flatly, without realising that he would HAVE to stop his mommy-pleasing game some day or another, and that the longer he waited the harder it would be. And I agree with those who said that it takes guts to oppose your entire family. Del From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 19:18:16 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:18:16 -0000 Subject: God in the WW In-Reply-To: <002601c5825c$bf8fc680$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132180 Ffred: > I have two theories. The first one is that wizarding folk > relinquished religion very early in history, when they > discovered that their abilities were not divinely given, but > were inherited. The Muggle world continued in the same manner > as our own, and the cross fertilisation accounts for things > like Harry having a godfather and the like. > > The second one is that religion in the Potterverse doesn't > have a prohibition on magic anyway... It seems likely that Muggle religions in the Potterverse were quite similar to historical Christianity as regards magic. I forget which book it is where the summer assignment for History of Magic was to write an essay regarding witch-burning. -zgirnius From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 11:24:42 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:24:42 -0000 Subject: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132181 > vmonte responding to Saraquel : > Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes > immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this > up?) Meri here. That's probably a common theme in lots of old stories. In the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander for instance, Taran encounters an evil wizard who magicked his life force into his pinky finger, then cut off the apendage and hid it in a tree. He could only be killed when the finger was destroyed. But where would LV keep his soul? Who would he trust enough to carry such a desperately important item for him? Meri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 10:55:47 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:55:47 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132182 - > > Del wrote: > > The whole point of Time-Turning is to make the past happen the way > > it happened. > > > > > > davenclaw: > > Then why are people worried about seeing their past-selves when > > they go back? They should already know if it happened. > > > > > Alisha: > I think this particular warning was either a)an exaggeration to > frighten people tempted to mess with time for fun or b)JKR not > clearly thinking about the consequences of what she said. > Valky: Hmmm I think the answer is that it is as, if not more, dangerous for your past self to see YOU. Consider, your past self hasn't got any idea what you are about to do, especially if you are Harry and are introduced to the concept of timeturning only a half second before you do it. So take Harry for example in Hagrids Hut, TTHarry comes bursting in to the Hut and tries to wrestle his best friends pet from his grasp. Neither Ron nor Harry have any knowledge or experience of Timeturning, ....But... Harry *does* have experience of tricky masked foes making attempts on his life.... which reaction can we expect from past Harry? Past selves can be mighty dangerous to encounter. ;D Valky From heidi at heidi8.com Thu Jul 7 13:15:29 2005 From: heidi at heidi8.com (Heidi) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:15:29 -0400 Subject: From Hexquarters, re Terror Attack in London Message-ID: <5913e6f805070706155cf5c01b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132183 We at Hexquarters are keeping a close eye on the Muggle news-stations today to hear word from our friends in the London area ,and we are sure many of you are doing the same. It would be best to keep all "I'm OK" and "Please Check In" posts on HPFGU-OTChatter, located at http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter. Also, a LiveJournal community has been set up for people to check in. You can find it at http://www.livejournal.com/community/london_070705/ . Stay safe, everyone. The HPFGU Hexquarters Team From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 13:34:30 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:34:30 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132184 Brian Brinkman said: No one has even said, "Oh > God," or "Thank God." The closest we have is "Merlin," yet I stop > short of thinking that Merlin worship is a feature of the WW. Ginger: Um, actually it is said by Draco. On p. 113 of the US paperback, when he attends Hagrid's first class he says, "God, this place is going to the dogs." I'll keep the rest of my comments short as I have said them before. Godfather: She needed someone with a vested interest in Harry, but not a blood relative. For someone raised Christian it is not a hard leap. Not saying that all Christians would choose this (and not all Christians have Godparents, and not all Godparents are of a Christian religion), but one writes better about things with which one is familiar. Christmas: Ron sums it up best. "Oy! Presents!" Religion in general: I can't imagine the WW would not allow religion or force its world-wide population to a particular one. It seems that they, as we, just believe how they believe. And seem to get along in the process. Perhaps this is the real lesson. Ginger, JMO except the comment about Hogwarts going to the dogs. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 14:24:00 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:24:00 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132185 Geoff: I think there are two angles to this question. One is JKR's real world approach and the other is Harry's point of view. Jim Ferer wrote in message 132059: "Tania, we do kind of avoid getting on religion here because it could start something that could rip this board apart, but I think it's safe to say that the wizard world seems pretty much like the Muggle one. How many novels do you read that mention churchgoing? A few, but not most. The world at large (at least the Western world) is fairly secular. A lot more people sing Christmas carols than go to church." Just to repeat myself, I wrote in message 132128: "But, again, how many books do you read which specifically mention churchgoing? To be flippant, someone recently remarked that we never saw Harry going to the bathroom ? how does he stay clean? How many stories dwell on the hero taking a bath or going to the toilet? Speaking seriously though as a Christian, I have commented on numerous occasions that you can see the presence of the writer's commitment even if it isn't overt. Tolkien's faith shows in the way in which his sub-creation works; we hear occasionally of Eru or The One. Similarly with JKR. We see from the way her world works, how right and wrong are viewed in it and. as a result, something of her feeling about faith." Bamf wrote in message 132137: "My other response is this: There are plenty of atheists and other people in the world that celebrate Christmas as a time of gift giving and peace, and do it in a matter that has nothing to do with Christ. To those people, Christmas is much less a religious holiday, and more a 'state' holiday, or rather a civic holiday. Everyone pretty much has grown up with it, knows what it is, and MOST people have the day off. (Unless of course, you were like me and were the only kid that celebrated Xmas in your kindergarten.) I have several pagan friends that celebrate Christmas, as it does fall in the middle of all mid-winter celebrations. To them, it's not the name, but the intent behind the celebration. The flip side of that is that there are many people who say they are Christian that only go to mass/church/house of worship during a holiday season. There are plenty of Christians who do not go to church on Sundays." Geoff: (1) I think the name has great importance. We are celebrating the birth of Christ ? that's what the word Christmas means ? and if people are not, they should choose a different word. (2) On your second point about Christians not going to church, it depends on what you mean by Christian. The former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, said on a television on one occasion that we should not confuse Christianity with "Churchianity". There are lots of people who attend church who have not made real commitments to Christ. They go through the services and routines but, to them, it is a little bit like joining a golf club. They go along occasionally as the mood takes them and attend things which they like but they lack the integral, personal faith which is expressed by committed Christians. It is the sort of woolly thinking I had in my teens before I came to faith. This is one reason why Christianity is often mocked ? certainly in the UK media. Many folk /claim/ that they are Christian; the standard joke in the UK is that if you are going into hospital and they ask you for your religion and you express no choice, you are automatically marked down as C of E! Brian then wrote in post 132160 "On the other hand, Harry seems to have no spiritual internal dialogue. The narrative doesn't mention him thinking about ultimate reality. The thoughts and observations we've been privy to, so far, have been steadfastly secular, and that's significant. Then there's the interaction with Luna: "Have you..." he began. "I mean, who...has anyone you've known ever died?" "Yes," said Luna simply,..." and so on... a couple of lines later... "But I've stil got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" "Er--isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. (863, American ed.) Harry's reaction, to me, suggests several possibilities: A. He's trained in a religion that doesn't emphasize an afterlife. B. He has come to doubt a religion that does. C. He has received little or no religious training." Geoff: Harry will certainly have had some religious education. It is mandatory in UK schools and Harry would have taken the subject in Little Whinging Junior School in the years up to 1991. Sadly, the curriculum has been broadened and children often get just a glimpse or taster of various faiths which leaves them with very vague and mixed views and, as I find in our church boys' club, a distinct feeling that religion is irrelevant to them. Looking back on my own early to mid-teens, God wasn't someone who was high up my list of priorities and hence things like the afterlife or the need for prayer etc. didn't really occur to me. I think Harry is in this same sort of situation. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:02:51 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:02:51 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132186 I think we can reach some common ground here. First, I'm not concerned with theories of physicists or philosophers. My concern is with the inconsistency between the rules of time-turning as JKR presents them, and the story that evolves. According to the theory that everyone is presenting, the characters in the story have an incorrect understanding of the nature of time-turning. I does not make sense to me to assume that JKR wrote fake rules and warnings, and that theories of physicists should supercede the rules and warnings that she presents to us. However, she may have made a mistake. It is clear in the story that the characters THINK they are going back to change events. It is clear that characters believe that it is possible to interfere with past events and cause a paradox. Indeed, people in this group who claim there is only one timeline, ever, still contend that there is a risk of your past-self seeing your TT-self - but this is illogical: if your past-self saw your TT- self, then your TT-self would already know that this happened. (Unless you saw yourself but didn't know, as with Harry.) According to my theory, this is a risk, but according to your theory, it couldn't happen without you already knowing it could happen. My theory is pretty simple: time-travelers can interact with people in the past timeline, and influence events. They may instantly only believe that altered events are the only events that ever occurred, but this is not the case. JKR presents one series of events from two perspectives, and cleverly leads us to believe that two different things are happening, until we look back and realize that the altered events are what we witnessed in the first place. The paradox in my theory is that if Harry had to change the original events, he wouldn't have a memory of seeing himself cast a Patronus until he did it. This can be resolved by asserting that we are seeing Harry time-travel into the past that had already been altered, and that the FIRST time he time-traveled, he cast the Patronus on his own rather than with the memory of seeing himself do it. I don't really think JKR had this in mind, though. I don't much like the "loop" idea but if you throw out the loop idea, then you have McGonnagal telling lies to Hermione - or, simply, JKR making a mistake. I really think we have to conclude that JKR didn't quite think through the consequences in complete detail. If we assume that she intended the events of the story to be the one-and-only timeline of events, then the risks of time-travel were basically a mistake. It also means that everyone is wrong to assert that there is a risk of your past-self seeing your TT-self without your TT-self already knowing that it happened. However, if we assume that the risks are real, then she is leaving something out by only showing us events as they were ultimately altered. Which she is free to do, however, I suspect that in her mind, time-turning works as most of the people in the group have asserted. So, in the end, I guess this is just a nitpick: JKR presents us with a concept of time-travel that conflicts with her characters' understanding of time-travel. I am in the "JKR screwed up" camp, rather than the "McGonnagal lied to Hermione" camp. - davenclaw From cubs9911 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 15:13:26 2005 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:13:26 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ehren" wrote: > Hello fellow HP fans: > > I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get some insight for. > Sorry if this has been discussed in previous posts. > > 1. I am finishing up reading CoS and a thought occured to me. Since > Hagrid's name was cleared and we know he wasn't resposible for > opening the Chamber why isn't he allowed to use magic now? > > "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic..." > OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) *** I think that this line in OOTP was just a mistake by JKR. I thought I had remembered JKR commenting about this in an interview so I went to look for it and I found it. Here is her answer on the subject: Question:Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again ? (Jan Campbell) JKR: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept. So it is clear that Hagrid is allowed to do magic. Seems like a Flint to me. JR From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 15:03:56 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:03:56 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132188 This has all been cooked up without reference to my books, so I may end up with scrambled chicken ovae across my features spelling out "idiot". Brief foray into TBAY stuff (scroll to the *** if you hate it) A light breeze gently tickles the palm fronds above Theory Bay, directing the onlooker to note a dark bruising on the horizon, the promise of an impending storm. Not just any old storm, oh no. Three years in the brewing: this one will be bigger than the last, narrowing our options for boat-design still further. There is still ample evidence of the devastation wreaked by Hurricane Jo in the summer of 2002. The carcasses of once-proud can(n)on-laden craft litter the shore, and clog the depths. Newly-built vessels seem to be shallower on the draught, and nimbly pick their way between the aging masts which yet reach up from the seabed, waving their rotting sails in the current as if calling for the observer to take heed. A new craft rounds the point. At first sight it looks suspiciously as though the designer has been unduly influenced by the stylish prow of the ELKINS AVENGED... But no, there are differences, (it is smaller and less well-built, for starters) and as the stern makes itself visible, there sits one big fat (and only slightly extrapolated) can(n)on, which distinguishes it from the ELKINS AVENGED. *********************************** Neri pointed out some interesting facts about Crouch and the Longbottoms a couple of weeks ago: 1. Crouch the elder, as head of the department of magical law enforcement, was the Longbottoms' boss. 2. The fact that it was his son who attacked the longbottoms (and his certainty of his son's guilt), suggests that the attack was planned on information provided by Crouch the younger obtained from his father. To which I would like to add: 3. According to JKR the Lestranges were not in on the prophecy, and their reasons for attacking the Longbottoms were not to do with Neville. This is the important bit ----> 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had finished breaking through her memory charm (but before he disposed of her, obviously).<----- 5. That memory charm was performed by Crouch the elder when Bertha Jorkins accidentally discovered Crouch the younger under an invisibility cloak in Crouch the elder's home. Can you see where I'm heading? Crouch had a history of putting memory charms on people when they find out things he doesn't want them to know. What would Crouch have wanted the Longbottoms to forget? Neri (while constructing the ELKINS AVENGED in post 130839) reckoned: "Deep inside the Longbottoms' tortured minds must be hidden some big secret, and I mean BIG. It's not the prophecy. The prophecy wasn't such a big Bang even when it was revealed in the end of OotP, but solving the Longbottoms' mystery in Book 6 or 7 only to find the prophecy *again*, that would definitely be a Dud. Besides, JKR already told us that the Lestranges didn't know about the prophecy." No, but Crouch Junior might have heard from his father that he had to memory charm two of his best Aurors to keep a secret safe from the DEs who were still at large. Crouch Junior could then have assumed that the secret was to do with Voldy's whereabouts ? what else could be so important as to merit a memory charm on the good guys? I've never been particularly convinced by the attempts to anagram Drooble's Best Blowing Gum (though some of the results are most amusing). However, the idea that Alice is trying to communicate with Neville through the gum wrappers has a decided appeal. Best I've come across so far is that the enormous bubbles produced by the gum resemble prophecy orbs, and it is this that the Longbottoms are trying to tell Neville. I can't remember who to credit with that one ? was it dear-departed Kneasy? (may-his-back-posts-be- eternally-re-read). Thus, it is not the secret for which they were tortured which has important plot ramifications (the BANG quotient), but who else knew about it. JKR hinted as much when she shot down speculation that Bella and co were after Neville when they tortured his parents. She said that she couldn't go into too much detail because it touched on who exactly knew the prophecy, but that the Lestranges (irritatingly she didn't mention Crouch Junior) weren't in on the secret. So "Who Knew The Prophecy?" is an important question, the answer to which JKR is not yet ready to reveal. As to BANGiness... well, I suppose it depends how she decides to handle it. I can't fathom why it's important for the moment, unless we're about to find out about the eavesdropper and more double agents. But what about Crouch Senior? We never saw DD and Crouch together, except in the Pensieve, where they hardly had the opportunity to give us clues about their relationship. I don't necessarily think they particularly liked each other, but they may well have shared a good deal of information about fighting Voldy. The head of the Order of the Phoenix, and the head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement exchanging information and working together. Sounds plausible, right? I favour the idea that the Longbottoms *agreed* to have their memories erased by Crouch and Dumbledore, knowing that their knowledge of the prophecy would be invaluable to the Death Eaters. Bella and co broke through the memory charm, but were hauled off to Azkaban before they could finish the job of extracting the information, leaving the Longbottoms once again in possession of the secret, but being unable to communicate it to anyone, except by repeatedly giving Neville bubblegum wrappers. Snape said at some point (again, sorry for my inability to quote comprehensively ? somewhere in PoA) that James died because he was too arrogant to think he could have been mistaken in Black. It's often been assumed that this meant Snape warned James that Sirius was the spy and was laughed at. It can also be read as Snape being truly stunned by the arrogance of someone refusing DD as a secret- keeper. James died because he refused DD's offer. Perhaps the Longbottoms didn't. Perhaps because DD knew they were safe, because he was their secret-keeper, he felt secure enough to tell them the prophecy. With the Potters, DD suspected that someone close to them was passing information to You-Know-Who, and they went and refused his secret-keeping. I wouldn't tell them the prophecy either, in that situation. In fact, one of the questions I'd love to put to JKR is "Why didn't Lily and James accept DD as their secret-keeper?" It seems to me to be either a clumsy plot device to allow the whole GH debacle to happen (but then why have DD offer to be the secret-keeper at all?), or it's there to hide something more important. And JKR has already connected the Longbottom attack with knowledge (or otherwise) of the prophecy. I'll stop rambling and summarise: DD wanted to set up Fidelius charms to protect the Longbottoms and the Potters, with himself as secret-keeper. For whatever reason (though I'm happy to agree with Snape that it was James' arrogance), the Potters refuse, and go with Sirius. The Longbottoms accepted DD's offer, and so he told them the prophecy, knowing that the information was safe with them. After Voldy got gassed at GH, a number of DEs were still at large, and DD and Crouch knew that this meant the Longbottoms were in danger of revealing the prophecy. So they all got together, and Frank and Alice agreed to have their memories modified. At home, Barty Crouch Senior lets slip that he had to modify the memories of two of his best Aurors because they knew something important, and Barty Crouch Junior (assuming excitedly that this means they know where Voldy's hiding) scurries off to his Death Eater pals to plan an evening's Auror torture. To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had been placed on Frank and Alice. The rest is all trying to make sense of it. But I like it, you know? In fact, I like it so much that I'm going to name it "CROUCH INvolved in General, Tapestry of Intrigue Gets Extremely Ridiculous, Headmaster Involved, Dumbledore Decides to ENact Charm, Aurors Told Prophecy, Obviously Obliviated." Or, if you prefer: CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN CAT POO And anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and cobbled the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will be... ahem... correct. **************************************** TBAY resumed: The brooding monstrosity of water vapour on the horizon has inched imperceptibly closer. The soil of Theory Bay is parched, and the leaves dusty. Three long years since the last refreshing rains, and now... it is so close. Make hay while the sun still shines, lest your unpublished theories rot where they stand in the wake of the hurricane, having never furnished a stable floor (which is all most of them are good for, let's be honest). The CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN CAT POO glides to a halt in the middle of the bay, open to can(n)on fire from all sides. It will undoubtedly start soon. The captain, Dungrollin (for it is she), lowers the anchor, battens down the hatches, readies her can(n)on, and waits for the inevitable. Having prepared as best she can, she lounges back in her hammock, gazes out at the bay and swigs the leftover champagne from the lonely launch party, hoping that someone will come and join her soon (for there is still another unopened bottle or two to tempt them). Have I missed something obvious? Do you have any can(n)on to help? Or do you want to sink me now? Do tell, do tell. Either way, there's champagne and little sausages on sticks to be had, and we can polish off the firewhisky and watch the sun go down sitting on the slowly sinking wreckage, if necessary. Dungrollin Fervently hoping that all in London are well. From ekrbdg at msn.com Thu Jul 7 15:34:30 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:34:30 -0400 Subject: New theory about the gum wrappers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132189 I have been listening to the theories regarding DROOBLES gum wrappers and the anagrams with their possible meanings. It just didn't click for me although I do think there is something to the gum wrappers. After much thought and reading, I have a new theory (or at least one I haven't heard yet). There seems to be quite a bit of "token" actions through out the books. Harry has to return to Privet Drive to maintain the protection of his Mother's sacrifice (even though there is no show of affection or love), The Dursley's give Harry Christmas gifts every year (regardless of their nature), etc. I was thinking of that and thinking of the sacrifice/protection that Lily gave Harry and... hmmm, I wonder if the gumwrappers are Neville's Mom's way of providing protection to him. She gives him a token gift when she sees him. (OotP p512, Am. Ed.) Again ? said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, Alice dear, very well- Neville, take it, whatever it is...." But Neville had already stretched out his hand,... Perhaps, however the state she is in, underneath she is aware and by providing with that token gift, she is providing him with some sort of protection. There is definitely more to Neville than we've seen as far as his involvement in the story. That has continued to unfold book after book. Is it possible that there was protection for both Neville and Harry ? That both of their Mother's were aware of the prophecy and not knowing which boy was going to be "marked" by LV, Dumbledore had them both provide protection. I think it is definitely possible and perhaps this is Alice's way to continue to provide it by these token gifts (regardless of their nature). Also, this has been going on for quite some time (possibly since she's been institutionalized). I do indeed think she has been giving them to him all along. After all, (OotP p513, Am. Ed.) "Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now..." Considering Neville has been away at Hogwarts for the better part of 4-5 years, he couldn't have visited much during that time. Take the amount of visits probably prior to that (leading up to when he went to Hogwarts) and the size of a gum wrapper... how many would it take to paper a bedroom ? She must have given him quite a lot which would seem possible to have been a regular occurrence. Not only that but they had left the immediate area where Alice Longbottom was and while Nev. and Granny were talking to Harry and crew, Alice made her way towards them. This to me, indicates not a random gesture but one that she is making a point to do. Kimberly *ScrappyK* --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:19:58 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:19:58 -0000 Subject: Does JKR dislike writing about Quidditch matches? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132190 Debbie wrote: THE MATCHES AS FORESHADOWING > CoS > Here Harry's battle with the rogue bludger seems to parallel Harry's later battle with the Basilisk. Dobby, bless him, unwittingly prepares Harry for the encounter. In the Quidditch match, Harry elects to take on the rogue Bludger by himself, to allow Fred and George to concentrate on protecting the rest of the team from the other Bludger. He does this even though he has no idea if it will do any good. But Harry outplays the Bludger, just as later on he outplays the Basilisk. The Bludger does manage to land a nasty blow on Harry's right arm, just above the elbow, as Harry grabs the Snitch. In the Chamber, the Basilisk bites Harry in the elbow -- almost exactly the same spot - just as Harry punches Godric's sword through the Basilisk and kills him (ch. 17). Both the Bludger and the Basilisk produce exactly the same "searing pain" in Harry's elbow; in both instances, he needs outside help to recover. ** Marcela now: I'd like to add to this that Harry wasn't aware of both Ginny's and Dobby's well-meant yet harmful involvements: Ginny with the Diary and Dobby with the jinx on the Bludgers. ----------------------------------------- Debbie again (Cont'd): PS/SS > > I've left this for last, because the parallels do not seem to work as foreshadowing like the parallels in the later books do. The primary parallel I see in the first Quidditch match, against Slytherin, is that the Trio suspect Snape both of trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match and of trying to get through the obstacles to reach the Stone. However, since Harry doesn't learn that Snape was protecting him instead of jinxing him at the Quidditch match until he faces Quirrelmort, the element of foreshadowing is lacking. There is some foreshadowing in the Hufflepuff match, where Harry's grab of the Snitch in record time foreshadows his ability later on to retrieve the Stone instantly from the Mirror when he realizes he needs to keep Quirrelmort from getting it (ch. 17). However, I find this parallel less satisfying than those in the later books. >* vmonte replied: I believe that the quidditch in this book reflects what happened at Godric's Hollow. Debbie wrote about the ease of Harry catching the snitch above. Well, look at how baby Harry was able to defeat Voldemort at GH. (And it was really due to the fact that his mother had placed a spell on Harry to protect him.) ** Marcela now: What I think that was very significant in this match, and ultimately foreshadowing the end of the book, was that Harry didn't literally "catch" the Snitch with his hands but with his "mouth", almost swallowing it. This to me foreshadows that Harry "contained" the Stone all this time (Mirror scene), but didn't "want" it for himself (didn't swallow Snitch). I loved reading your interpretation of Quidditch. Games in modern world are a healthy (well, most of times :) ) way to subliminate our natural Human tendencies for Warring and Fighting. But I'd say that to complete your essay (because it looks like one), you'd need to analyze the significance of the Snitch. If we interpret the Snitch as the Philosophical Stone/Path for Liberation of the Soul/Freedom/Soul/Ultimate Goal/You-Name-It, we have Harry pursuing his goal as a Seeker throughout the whole series, and the matches suspensions were a way for Jo to foreshadow that Harry got distractions from his path: Dumbledore not telling him everything, Voldemort, Fudge, WW not believing him, etc. Marcela From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 15:31:19 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0000 Subject: Who's got Voldy's soul - was Re: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > In the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander for instance, Taran > encounters an evil wizard who magicked his life force into his pinky > finger, then cut off the apendage and hid it in a tree. He could > only be killed when the finger was destroyed. But where would LV > keep his soul? Who would he trust enough... Well Lucius Malfoy apparently has a lot of LV's "old school stuff" and Harry and Ron know where it's hidden too, after the polyjuice episode: under the floorboards in 'Malfoy Towers'. Perhaps he is Voldy's secret keeper and soul storer. Karen From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:36:18 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:36:18 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132192 Davenclaw wrote: "So, in the end, I guess this is just a nitpick: JKR presents us with a concept of time-travel that conflicts with her characters' understanding of time-travel. I am in the "JKR screwed up" camp, rather than the "McGonnagal lied to Hermione" camp." Del replies: Maybe there could be a third camp: "some of the characters REALLY don't understand how Time-Turning works". We know that Hermione didn't understand when Harry explained to her how seeing himself cast the Patronus gave him the little edge he needed to succeed at casting a real Patronus. So it *could* be that she *really* doesn't understand how Time-Turning works. As for McGonagall, we don't know whether she has any experience with it,and whether she understands its principle at all. If she doesn't understand it, then maybe all her warnings about wizards killing their past or future selves are just "wizard legends" (as in urban legends), things she's heard about but that are not true. Maybe she is just scared of the Time-Turner because she doesn't understand it, so she told Hermione the scariest stories she'd heard of just to make sure Hermione would be *exceptionally* careful in using it. We do know that McGonagall can go a bit overboard when under stress : just remember her (paraphrase) "Potter, I'll help you become an Auror if that's the last thing I do!". So maybe all those rules and stories are just not true, or just overblown versions of real warnings. Del From pastafor5 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:36:54 2005 From: pastafor5 at yahoo.com (pastafor5) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:36:54 -0000 Subject: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > > vmonte responding to Saraquel : > > Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this up?) > > Meri here. That's probably a common theme in lots of old stories. But where would LV keep his soul? Who would he trust enough to carry such a desperately important item for him? > Meri Pastafor5: You could be on to something here. This is also part of the ballet story "The Firebird" (phoenix?). In the version of this story that I've read, the evil Kotschei keeps his soul in an egg in a box. The firebird lulls the evil creatures who serve Kotschei (dementors/death eaters?) to sleep so the hero can get to the box to destroy the egg. Interesting. I'm thinking Voldemort could somehow have his soul magically protected within himself. Could the dementors play a roll in retreiving it? (side note - I hope this is OK to post here: To all in London who have been affected by the horrible events there this morning, you are in my prayers.) From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 7 15:57:30 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:57:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CD50EA.40103@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132194 Davenclaw wrote: >"So, in the end, I guess this is just a nitpick: JKR presents us with >a concept of time-travel that conflicts with her characters' >understanding of time-travel. I am in the "JKR screwed up" camp, >rather than the "McGonnagal lied to Hermione" camp." > > Del replied: >Maybe there could be a third camp: "some of the characters REALLY >don't understand how Time-Turning works". We know that Hermione didn't >understand when Harry explained to her how seeing himself cast the >Patronus gave him the little edge he needed to succeed at casting a >real Patronus. So it *could* be that she *really* doesn't understand >how Time-Turning works. As for McGonagall, we don't know whether she >has any experience with it,and whether she understands its principle >at all. If she doesn't understand it, then maybe all her warnings >about wizards killing their past or future selves are just "wizard >legends" (as in urban legends), things she's heard about but that are >not true. > heather adds: And maybe, there are different types of magical time devices that will do different things. Perhaps a time-turner is used to get 'more time' for an individual out of the same timeline, and other devices could be used to actually change the past. Of course I'm in the camp that believes the latter is logically impossible, but I'm open to the notion of it being used in fiction. :) I definitely think the former, the time-only-happens-once idea is indeed what was happening in PoA, and I'm glad that Davenclaw agrees with that much, at least. :) However, given the nature of the experiments in the DoM... with the baby and the bird being examples of things growing backwards through their own individual timeframe WHILE MOVING FORWARD in 'actual' time, leads to the possibility within the *magic* world that there are ways of circumventing 'normal' time logic (such as it is) and that a wizard could, possibly, kill his past self with HORRID repercussions to the space-time continuum. This sort of device would probably now be completely outlawed... I prefer the idea that this is an urban legend, designed to scare wizards from trying to 'tamper with time' too much -- despite the apparent 'safety' of the time-turner because "you would know if you had done it", it's still possible for it to be used for evil. You *could* go back in time to kill someone ELSE, for instance (whether or not you were aware that you had "already" done it). Perhaps they're just too far away for you to get to them in time when you know they're vulnerable, so you time-turn so you can get there quickly enough and do the deed. Also, even the greatest wizards might have a hard time understanding time travel. As proven by the discussions here, it's a horrifically complicated thing to even THINK about, much less TALK INTELLIGENTLY about lol... wizards might have discovered ways to play with time, and just be able to say "well I know we CAN do it, but I can't explain WHY or HOW". If they're not exactly sure WHAT is happening, it's best not to push the envelope, to tempt fate, etc. Whether or not the urban legends are deliberately 'planted' or just evolved out of misunderstandings (as most urban legends do, taking a near-truth and exaggerating and distorting it) is almost irrelevant, if that's what they are. I like the idea of McGonagle either deliberately or superstitiously passing on these legends to Hermione, who of course believes it because a professor said so. :) As for Hermione researching it... I would guess that it's something so secret, so carefully guarded, that it's not much published about, so she wouldn't find much anyway. Anyway... summation: I prefer the urban legends theory, but I'm open to the idea that different devices can tamper with Time in different ways. Can I use this as a chance to express one of my favourite little moments in the PoA movie? When Hermione wraps the TT around herself and Harry, and he goes to have a look at it, and she (rather parentally) slaps his hand away without even looking up.... Has me LOL every single time. Great little character moment. Heh. heather the buzzard From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 7 15:06:16 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:06:16 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132195 Jim Ferer wrote in message 132059: It's safe to say that the wizard world seems pretty much like the Muggle one. Rachael: I agree, in most ways the Wizarding World parallels the real world. And in my experience, religion does not a play a big part in school, except for getting the Christmas and Easter holidays, or any other specific religious holidays one wishes to take. Geoff wrote in message 132128: Speaking seriously though as a Christian, I have commented on numerous occasions that you can see the presence of the writer's commitment even if it isn't overt. [...] We see from the way [JKR's] world works, how right and wrong are viewed in it and. as a result, something of her feeling about faith. Rachael: However, her feelings of faith are not really what are expressed in the novels, but rather, her morals and ethics. Many Christians often argue (and I am not saying any here has, just a pre-emptive reply in case someone does) that when an author expresses views that are in line with Christianity (for example, treating others the way you wish to be treated), they believe that it is a Christian novel. However, those themes are often present in most other religions, as well as in most people's morality. The point of this is, unless JKR specifically says she is trying to teach Christian morality, it is a very hard thing to prove. Bamf wrote in message 132137: My other response is this: There are plenty of atheists and other people in the world that celebrate Christmas as a time of gift giving and peace, and do it in a matter that has nothing to do with Christ. To those people, Christmas is much less a religious holiday, and more a 'state' holiday, or rather a civic holiday. [...] To them, it's not the name, but the intent behind the celebration. Geoff wrote in message 132185: (1) I think the name has great importance. We are celebrating the birth of Christ ? that's what the word Christmas means ? and if people are not, they should choose a different word. Rachael: The name has great importance to those that are Christian, BUT because of the history of Christianity being imposed on the people of wherever the British decided to colonize, the names do not necessarily mean that everyone that celebrates the holidays has to be Christian. Christmas and Easter have become so ingrained in (at least) Western society and so commercialized that there doesn't need to be any religion involved to celebrate them. As well, I would like to add that I have godparents, though neither my parents or I are Christian. It was just done to specify who would take care of my brother and I if anything happened to my parents. Rachael who really hopes she hasn't offended anyone because she really didn't mean to From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:54:32 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:54:32 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132196 wrote: > As for McGonagall, we don't know whether she > has any experience with it,and whether she understands its principle > at all. If she doesn't understand it, then maybe all her warnings > about wizards killing their past or future selves are just "wizard > legends" (as in urban legends), things she's heard about but that are > not true. Maybe she is just scared of the Time-Turner because she > doesn't understand it, so she told Hermione the scariest stories she'd > heard of just to make sure Hermione would be *exceptionally* careful > in using it. I really doubt that JKR would present all of these warnings with the idea that the characters just didn't understand. If there was no risk of changing events by going back, then people would use time- turners all the time, and it wouldn't require special permission from the Ministry, and there simply wouldn't be a reason for her to be afraid of the use of the time-turner. The only risk would be that if she's not careful, other students would see her in two places at once, and flip out, or demand that everyone get a time turner, and then you have dozens of malfoys running around wreaking havoc. No, I think JKR really believed that time can be changed, but didn't consider that this isn't consistent with the idea that time- travelers are only going to see events as they happened without the ability to change them from what they've already experienced. Can you please tell me whether you believe that there is any risk of the past-self seeing the TT-self without the TT-self already knowing that it happened? > We do know that McGonagall can go a bit overboard when > under stress : just remember her (paraphrase) "Potter, I'll help you > become an Auror if that's the last thing I do!". So maybe all those > rules and stories are just not true, or just overblown versions of > real warnings. > I doubt Hermione stressed her out with her attempt to overload her schedule as much as Umbridge did. - davenclaw From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 16:12:48 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:12:48 -0000 Subject: The point of Time-Turning (was Paradox of Time Travel in PoA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132197 "davenclaw"wrote: > > I really doubt that JKR would present all of these warnings with the > idea that the characters just didn't understand. If there was no > risk of changing events by going back, then people would use time- > turners all the time, and it wouldn't require special permission > from the Ministry, Finwitch: Oh, but it is clear that *Hermione* doesn't understand. She *does* need to go by strict guidelines - and one is NOT to attempt to change the past. It *is* a theoretical possibility, but I doubt anyone CAN/WILL do it in practice. And of course Ministry would control it! What *don't* they try to control? Particularly a device that would provide an iron-clad alibi to any wanna-be criminal... say someone with the help of timeturner commits murder and uses TT to have an alibi by er - having a party with members of Wizengamot... (who MIGHT consider the TT-possibility, but think of Muggle-courts and make the alibi-providers be judges or cops...) Finwitch From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 7 16:54:03 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:54:03 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel and Being Honest to a Work of Fiction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132198 I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under her theory we can change history: (A) Hermione tells Harry that "Nobody is supposed to change time" when Harry wants to get the Invisibility Cloak (p. 398 US ed.). She says we not "supposed" to change time ? not "Nobody can change time." Thus, changing time must be possible. This was the perfect place for JKR to state that "Nobody can change time" but she makes it clear that we can change time. Also note that Hermione speaks of "breaking one of the most important wizarding laws." That too must refer to changing history because time-travel per se is not illegal. Laws are against only possible actions. It makes no sense to have a law against something you couldn't do even if you wanted to. I haven't checked the hunting laws in state, but I sure they don't say "You cannot hunt dinosaurs" ? it wouldn't make any sense to have such a law since we couldn't hunt extinct animals even if we wanted to. And the same applies here: there would be no law proscribing changing time only if such change is possible. (B) Hermione tells Harry that McGonagall told her that "loads of [time-traveling wizards and witches] ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake" (p. 399 US ed.). That is definitely changing history: the "earlier" wizards have been eliminated by time- travel events from the history that produced the time-traveling wizards. How can you go back in time and eliminate someone from history without changing the past? (C) Harry says "There must be something that happened around now that he [Dumbledore] wants us to change" (p. 396). Also notice that time- traveling Harry wanted to change things by running out of the forest when he and time-traveling Hermione were hiding there and getting the Invisibility Cloak (p. 405) and getting Wormtail (p. 408). She had to grab and stop him. She only expressed concern about being seen, but the fact remains that Harry would have changed history. If Harry had stopped Wormtail or had just gotten the Invisibility Cloak, all the events of that evening from that point on would have changed, and he could have gotten them if Hermione had not intervened. (D) Dumbledore, who is supposedly the greatest wizard of our time and no doubt knows about time-travel, warns Harry and Hermione about being careful because time-travel's consequences are complicated and unpredictable (p. 426). But if nothing changes, it does not matter whether we are careless in the past or not. If history is unchangeable, Dumbledore's comment about the consequences being unpredictable is wrong: the consequences would be completely predictable because we know precisely what will happen up to the time of the time- traveling. In fact, there is nothing to predict because we already know exactly what will happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Also, we wouldn't have to be careful since we couldn't change history even if we wanted to. You could trip over things, you could be as clumsy as Tonks ? it just doesn't matter because you can't affect the past. For that matter, you could go back with a machine gun and shoot up the place ? or you could take a nuclear bomb and nuke the place ? and it wouldn't change anything because the past is "fixed" and unchangeable. Thus, Dumbledore's warning to be careful doesn't make sense unless we might accidentally or intentionally change history. * * * Just looking at the actions and skipping what the characters say is one way to proceed. In the "real world" that might work, but my concern is that JKR's is a work of fiction, and if we do look only at the actions and ignore what the characters say, then we are ignoring a big chunk of what she actually created. Even if we can come up with a good theory that fits the limited part we choose to look at, I can't help but think that we are imposing a theory on her story that isn't hers if we have to come up with ways to explain away the rest of what she wrote. In other words, even if we can come up with a theory that fits part of what she created, it is just that ? a theory that only fits part of what she created. That is, even if our theory fits the action part, it doesn't explain what she created if we still have to dismiss everything the characters say. The theory doesn't really cover all that the author presented. And if looking at JKR's complete account presents problems for time-travel, well we're stuck. We can't say "But if we only look at part of the story, there are no problems." We have to go with all that is given. (And there still are problems: I have not seen any "history cannot be changed" theories that explain how Harry got past the Dementors. Some people in effect just say "Don't worry about it!" which is no explanation at all.) It is true that we can't always trust what the characters say ? they have been wrong. But it always something we learn later that shows they were wrong. I can't see how anything could change what the characters said in the POA episode ? e.g., is JKR going to have McGonagall or Hermione or someone else say that they were mistaken about time-traveling wizards killing their former self, or have Dumbledore say that we don't have to be careful about our actions during time-travel because we really can't change what is going to happen anyway? Any theory that requires explaining away every single syllable that JKR puts in her characters' mouths cannot be acceptable. Certainly until we are shown that the characters were wrong we have to accept what JKR has her characters say on the matter of time-travel at face value if we are going to honest to the story. We have to be leery when people say that they know more about a topic that a writer of fiction is writing on than the author herself. Writers of fiction are not constrained by other people's theories. We can't approach time-travel in the Potterverse based on quantum physics or what we have read in sci fi. HP is a work of fiction and JKR is the only phyisicist in the Potterverse ? she can make up any theory she likes. The bottom line is we must take JKR at her word over someone else's theory that requires dismissing what she has her characters say. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:23:42 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:23:42 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132199 I often wondered at JKR's thought process when she decided to include Christmas and Easter in the books. My feeling is that she didn't want to present them in a religious way, just to avoid having to sort through the implications of having Chrisitanity and witchcraft co-exist. I often wonder what the Christian Muggle parents of a young wizard or witch would think when they learned that there is this whole world they never knew of where people have magical powers. But, I think she included them to a) create an experience that most kids can relate to, and b) avoid possible negativity if she were seen as purposely excluding these holidays. I don't perceive that the characters are Christian in a religious sense, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. If you believed in Christianity but then learned about magic, you could simply conclude that God created the forces behind magic, and gave certain humans the ability to control these forces. It would be challenging, to say the least, and would probably contradict many specific beliefs of various denominations, but would not ultimately be unresolvable. As for the Harry Potter books themselves, I personally, believe that fostering the ability to consider magic through fiction actually better enables people to think through Christian (and Catholic) concepts such as miracles, the assumption of Mary, the virgin birth, water-into-wine, reviving Lazarus, the Trinity, and transubstantiation. So people who get all worked up about Harry Potter books need to differentiate between the risk of children rejecting religion in favor of magic and witchcraft, and the development of the ability to understand events that are not explained by science, which is necessary to make that "leap of faith." That is why the Catholic Church issued a statement a few years back in support of the Harry Potter books. - davenclaw From jjpandy at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 17:16:54 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:16:54 -0000 Subject: New theory about the gum wrappers In-Reply-To: <00d901c58309$5ff58f40$5d451b3f@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > Perhaps, however the state she is in, underneath she is aware and by providing with that token gift, she is providing him with some sort of protection. There is definitely more to Neville than we've seen as far as his involvement in the story. That has continued to unfold book after book. Is it possible that there was protection for both Neville and Harry ? That both of their Mother's were aware of the prophecy and not knowing which boy was going to be "marked" by LV, Dumbledore had them both provide protection. I think it is definitely possible and perhaps this is Alice's way to continue to provide it by these token gifts (regardless of their nature). > JJ's reply: I like your theory, Kimberly. Neville's grandmother is from his father's side of the family, so this may be Alice's way of keeping her motherly protection active. If the Potters' had advance notice of the prophecy in order to set up Harry's protection, then I would guess that the Longbottoms did too - would be rather cruel and unfair of Dumbledore to not warn both sets of parents if he did share the prophecy. JJ From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 17:27:52 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:27:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Advanced Potions textbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132201 In Book One, when discussing the restricted section of the library it is mentioned that it is used by sixth years studying advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts. I think it is safe to say that Harry will be studying advanced DADA consequently I don't see any reason to read anything more into the potions book than that it's an old book about advanced potions. -- Gregory Lynn From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 18:01:38 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:01:38 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > Davenclaw: > > I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS > > saved by a time-travelling Harry, when Harry didn't get the > > opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the > > dementors. JLV: > I think to understand this you really do need to think four- > dimensionally. Harry's timeline is distinct from the timeline of, > say, Hogwarts, Sirius, Buckbeak and Dumbledore just like these are > distinct in a three-dimensional sense. Harry's timeline *relative > to* pretty much everyone else (but Hermione) loops back on itself, > yes, but nothing else has this fold. We only see `the same time > twice' according to Harry, *relative to* the timeframe of Hogwarts. > Harry doesn't actually `experience' time twice ? he's older when he > casts the Patronus than when he sees it ? and Hogwarts doesn't > experience time twice. I have to agree with you, JLV. It is all a matter or perspective. I think JKR tricks us into believing something has been changed when it has not. Consider Dumbledore's statemrnt to H&H when he sends them back "If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight." From H&H's perspective, he is suggesting that they can save more than Siruis - but is that what he's really saying? JKR worded it very carefully (or she had DD do so), for both our sake and theirs. I think he knows they have *alread* saved Buckbeak. When we witness it the second time, DD calls Fudge back to sign the order, giving them extra time to move Buckbeak, as if he knows they are out there. I also have to agree with your thought that changing time would involve changing the motive for going back. It you've already fixed the problem there's no reason to go back. Notice they don't go back to save buckbeak, but from their perspective they end up doing it - nobody ever told them the Buckbeak had actually been executed - they assumed that he had based on what they heard. JKR actually gives us several clues that these two sets of events are concurrent all along: first, they hear the door slam as they are leaving the castle - "they heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall and a door slamming". Then, when they leave Hagrid's hut, "Harry felt strangely sureal, and even moreso when he saw Buckbeak a few yards away..." Why did Harry feel sureal? Maybe because he subconsciously sensed his own presence in the weeks, watching himself. If they went back and changed something, they would remember both their original past and the changed past - Harry remembers that he thought his father had saved him, but also remembers that it was himself who cast the patronus. An excellent example of what might happen if the past were changed is shown in the movie "The Butterfly Effect" where the main character travels back to change events in his own past, with various results. As he experiences more "pasts" his brain overloads - because he knows what changes he made, and what would have happened if he didn't make those changes. He laments the bad decisions he made in attempting to "fix" the past. As for quantum leap, the premise seems to be that Sam somehow keeps ending up in the wrong timeline - thus he must make corrections to return to the proper timestream. In that show it was as if somebody or something had caused changes in the past. But note that all the errors were based on Sam's perspective, and as with Butterfly Effect, little chages have far reaching consequences. From EBeth0000 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 18:00:23 2005 From: EBeth0000 at hotmail.com (ebeth0000000000) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:00:23 -0000 Subject: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132203 > Saraquel wrote: > In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think > about: "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't Voldemort die?" > vmonte responds: > Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes > immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this > up?) Just as Harry's mother imbued him with the protection of her blood, perhaps the Longbottoms tried to instill a similar protection for Neville? (which brings up the whole "who knew about the Prophecy" question again) In that case, maybe the Lestrange's attack on the Longbottoms has something to do with this spell, maybe even deflecting the protection of the spell onto Voldemort? Very far-fetched, I know, but seriously, could Voldemort have received a protection spell from someone--anyone? Or "stolen" someone else's protection? Before the end of GoF, that is. EBeth From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 17:05:09 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:05:09 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132204 Am rereading all the books in preparation for HBP. One seemingly unexplained occurrence is Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley in COS (when Harry ends up there by mistake after using Floo powder from the Weasleys). I do not for a moment believe in ESE Hagrid, but it is clearly indicated in the book that his explanation of looking for slug repellent appears false. Nor is it a very effective red herring, if that is what is intended, as up til now there has been no suspicion of Hagrid. I have an impression that this is one of those unimportant plot points that becomes clear in retrospect. Any thoughts? Or have I missed an explanation? Rolshan From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 16:43:17 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:43:17 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132205 "davenclaw" roleplayed Sorting Hat: >Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for > Ravenclaw. And while she's no coward --snip-- let's face it: > her over-riding personality characteristics are intelligence and > studiousness. I say, put her in Ravenclaw. > Finwitch: > She's studious, yes. Why? To satisfy her ambition but more > importantly, because she's afraid to fail. No - as much as she > studies and appreciates academical knowledge, she's not really, >deep inside, all *that* fit for Ravenclaw. A typical Ravenclaw, I >believe, enjoys studying for the sake of studying... not Hermione. zgirnius replies: Oh, I agree Hermione has an (excessive, irrational) fear of failing in her schoolwork, but there seems to me to be a lot of support for the idea that she is genuinely interested in learning and scholarship. For one thing, her reaction to Sybill Trelawney mirrors McGonagall's-they both dislike her becasue they see her as a fraud. (Contrast this to Hermione's remarks about Arithmancy...so interesting!) Also, so often the knowledge she has gleaned from books is completely beyond or unrelated to her immediate coursework, suggesting she looked it up out of curiosity. For example, the Polyjuice Potion in CoS. Yes, Snape mentioned it in class, and that prompted her to look it up. But he also indicated it was way too advanced (I can't track down my copy just now, but he indicated it was either OWL or NEWT level, as I recall.) A student concerned primarily with passing the next exam would spend her time studying the material she knows will be on it. So I can definitely see why the SH would want to sort her into Ravenclaw. So why Gryffindor? My guess...perhaps she WANTED Gryffindor. This is Hermione, remember. The moment she and her parents got the invitation to Hogwarts School and the news that she is a witch, you just KNOW Hermione went out and read through "Hogwarts, A History", and "Magical Education in Europe", and probably other relevant tomes not mentioned in canon...she probably decided that Gryffindor was the "best" house based on something she read about it. And since as davenclaw points out, she does meet those criteria as well, the SH put her in Gryffindor. --zgirnius From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 18:22:38 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:22:38 -0000 Subject: Who's got Voldy's soul - Ginny does... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132206 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > In the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander for instance, Taran > > encounters an evil wizard who magicked his life force into his pinky > > finger, then cut off the apendage and hid it in a tree. He could > > only be killed when the finger was destroyed. But where would LV > > keep his soul? Who would he trust enough... I think since CoS Ginny has been hosting a piece of Voldemorts spirit. the diary ghost specifically says that he poured part of himself in her, iirc, and I think that part was left behind when the rest of the diary was destroyed. Rowling said that Voldemort would have been more powerful had the diary not been destroyed and I take that to mean he was ultimately going to meld with the diary spirit to 'complete' himself. I think that Voldemort is going to realize that Ginny has a piece of himself still in her and I think that pretty soon he is going to go after it... phoenixgod2000 From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 19:02:52 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132207 --- Chris wrote: > > IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a > love triangle > with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. > JKR seems to > think (according to her FAQ on the website) that we > should have > figured out the romance by now. Here's what I think > it is: Ron likes > Hermione, as evidenced by his jealousy over her and > Krum's > relationship. Hermione likes Harry because of his > personality and his > awesome acumen as a wizard. Harry doesn't even > notice Hermione as a > potential girlfriend. I think Ron will declare his > love for Hermione, > Hermione will respond that she likes Harry, Harry > will be lost as > usual, then the conflict between all three will > erupt. > Someone posted in the Ginny thread that Hermione > and her had > become friends because they are in the dormitory > away from the boys, > and they obviously talked to each other. Perhaps, > they talked about > Harry, Hermione revealed her feelings, and this is > what cooled Ginny > off of Harry. I have always read it in the same way, Ron liking Hermione and Hermione liking Harry. Whether this is true or not, we might find out in less than ten days. As to what Ginny knows about Hermione's feelings, I will submit the following quote, from the scene in Umbridge's office towards the end of OotP (Bloomsbury edition page 658): "'_Somebody_ had to act', breathed Umbridge, as her wand came to rest pointing directly at Harry's forehead. [...] And taking a deep breath, she cried, 'Cruc---'. 'NO!' shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent Bulstrode. 'No - Harry - we'll have to tell her!' [...] Ginny was staring at Hermione as if she had never seen her before." Of course, everybody is watching Hermione with consternation, so Ginny's reaction is not different, but, somehow, the way it was described made me think at first (and second, and even third) read that it was precisely at this point when Ginny realised that Hermione's feelings for Harry were not entirely friendly. Would Hermione have acted the same if it was Ron, not Harry, who was about to be crucio-ed? Probably. The only difference I can think of is that Hermione would have preferred to go together with Harry, rather than Ron, inside the Forbidden Forrest. Somehow it seems to me that Hermione treats Harry as the adult, and Ron as the child, a sure sign, I think, that she sees Ron as a brother and Harry as a man, and I am pretty sure that Ginny has noticed it, and might spill the beans to the boys soon. Mira __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 7 19:05:03 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:05:03 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > Am rereading all the books in preparation for HBP. One seemingly > unexplained occurrence is Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley in COS (when Harry ends up there by mistake after using Floo powder from the Weasleys). I do not for a moment believe in ESE Hagrid, but it is clearly indicated in the book that his explanation of looking for slug repellent appears false. > Pippin: An explanation is implied when Ron starts puking giant slugs near Hagrid's prize pumpkins. He really was shopping for slug repellent MO. Hagrid behaves a bit like a strait-laced politician admitting a fling in a Vegas casino -- his reasons were honest, just not respectable. I think Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley was meant to show why the wizards tolerate the place despite the efforts of people like Arthur to restrict the sale of things that are sold there, like poisons. More important, it shows us that a shamefaced admission may look like a lie. Pippin From ellydan at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 14:27:47 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707142748.34312.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132209 > > vmonte responding to Saraquel : > > Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a > man that becomes > > immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a > box? (Did I make this > > up?) > > Meri here. That's probably a common theme in lots of > old stories. In > the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander for > instance, Taran > encounters an evil wizard who magicked his life > force into his pinky > finger, then cut off the apendage and hid it in a > tree. He could only > be killed when the finger was destroyed. But where > would LV keep his > soul? Who would he trust enough to carry such a > desperately important > item for him? > Meri > Yes this is definately an old common theme in marchen/fairy tales. It makes the person that much more impervious to hide their heart/soul/spirit somewhere else. Neil Gaiman uses it in his Death the High of Living when Mad Hettie lives hundreds of years after she hides away her heart. In Neverwhere also by the esteemed Mr. Gaiman, the Marquis de Carabas is revived after his heart is brought back to him. *It was being kept in a box.* And in Jim Henson's fabulous series, The Storyteller, the episode about the giant again deals with how he cannot be killed because his heart has been hidden away. While, Gaiman certainly didn't make Hettie and the Marquis de Carabas into cruel characters. In fairy tales the idea of hiding away your heart somewhere certainly makes an already dangerous character even more cruel, cunning and emotionally detached. Ellyddan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 19:40:16 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:40:16 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel and Being Honest to a Work of Fiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132210 > Richard Jones:: > I think it is clear from four things JKR says in the POA that under > her theory we can change history: > > > Just looking at the actions and skipping what the characters say is > one way to proceed. In the "real world" that might work, but my > concern is that JKR's is a work of fiction, and if we do look only at > the actions and ignore what the characters say, then we are ignoring > a big chunk of what she actually created. Even if we can come up > with a good theory that fits the limited part we choose to look at, I > can't help but think that we are imposing a theory on her story that > isn't hers if we have to come up with ways to explain away the rest > of what she wrote. > > In other words, even if we can come up with a theory that fits part > of what she created, it is just that ? a theory that only fits part > of what she created. That is, even if our theory fits the action > part, it doesn't explain what she created if we still have to dismiss > everything the characters say. The theory doesn't really cover all > that the author presented. And if looking at JKR's complete account > presents problems for time-travel, well we're stuck. We can't > say "But if we only look at part of the story, there are no > problems." We have to go with all that is given. (And there still > are problems: I have not seen any "history cannot be changed" > theories that explain how Harry got past the Dementors. Some people > in effect just say "Don't worry about it!" which is no explanation at > all.) JLV: Can't help it, sorry guys I really think the "history cannot be changed" idea does explain how Harry got past the dementors perfectly. In fact the whole dementor incident is the neatest bit of evidence we have /for/ the "history cannot be changed" idea. The problem is merely that it is a bit *too* convenient, but it's better (in my opinion) than logical inconsistency. Contrivance in plot I can forgive more easily than absurdity. > Richard Jones: > It is true that we can't always trust what the characters say ? they > have been wrong. But it always something we learn later that shows > they were wrong. I can't see how anything could change what the > characters said in the POA episode ? e.g., is JKR going to have > McGonagall or Hermione or someone else say that they were mistaken > about time-traveling wizards killing their former self, or have > Dumbledore say that we don't have to be careful about our actions > during time-travel because we really can't change what is going to > happen anyway? Any theory that requires explaining away every single > syllable that JKR puts in her characters' mouths cannot be > acceptable. Certainly until we are shown that the characters were > wrong we have to accept what JKR has her characters say on the matter > of time-travel at face value if we are going to honest to the story. > > We have to be leery when people say that they know more about a topic > that a writer of fiction is writing on than the author herself. > Writers of fiction are not constrained by other people's theories. > We can't approach time-travel in the Potterverse based on quantum > physics or what we have read in sci fi. HP is a work of fiction and > JKR is the only phyisicist in the Potterverse ? she can make up any > theory she likes. JLV: Eep ? sorry! I tend to go overboard when I get enthusiastic. *blushes* I really got way too sidetracked with fabulous real ideas My point was really that what is presented in the book does not imply that there was a `first time' that differed from the events given. Using real-life physics was really just supposed to illustrate that the events were possible and consistent and that this view was shared by some really great minds who would take everything into account and hence the events cannot be used to support a theory that something quite different *must* have happened `first time'. I think my enthusiasm made me lose the point entirely. I do hope you can forgive me! > Richard Jones: > The bottom line is we must take JKR at her word over someone else's > theory that requires dismissing what she has her characters say. JLV here: Of course you're right. JKR can do what she likes! I really didn't mean to say otherwise. But I think that's how it came out. There is a caveat, however (how predictable!) Unfortunately the fact that this is fiction, and essentially that there are no rules at all, makes predictions about what is to happen very difficult. Because all the rules are JKR's own and can change at her will, she can decide to bring Sirius back to life if she wanted, even if she repeatedly said she wouldn't. She can have Hermione calculate the square root of minus one if she likes. I just think that, if the past could change, she could re-write the beginning, having Dumbledore kill Voldemort before Harry was ever marked ? sacrificing his life for Harry. I only suppose that the reason why no-one has done this is because they *can't* rather than *shouldn't*. Obviously, in the interest of plausibility JKR doesn't want to break the rules of logic too much. She treats magic like a science or skill ? it has certain limitations which she establishes in the narrative to prevent anarchy. Without limitations, people could do *anything*. If anything could happen, why am I here trying to guess? Why have wasted my time? Do you see my problem. Unfortunately if the comments made by Harry and Hermione are true, they render the time-travel absurd ? like in pretty much all time- travel fiction. I'm (obviously) the sort of person who is very nitpicky about logic. This group thrives on excellent logical discussions as well as wild speculation ? that's why I love it so much! I think I just *want* to believe that Hermione was wrong because it makes the story `plausible' to me ? in fact it makes it astonishingly clever considering JKR is unlikely to know much about the subject (she freely admits maths isn't her thing!) Hermione's comments ruin it for me and I can only hope she was wrong or just using imprecise language (change, as I have stated before, is a terrible word that eats up its own definition of we try to define it). I hope JKR realises that she would, in my opinion, be opening a can of worms if she allowed the past to be altered but that's up to her and I'll have to take it on the chin if that happens to be the case. There are obviously an infinite number of theories that fit the events in PoA, especially if we don't consider logical consistency a criterion. I personally like mine because it is logically coherent. I don't like theories that aren't (I ask what is the point of reasoning about contradictions ? anything follows from a contradiction!). But, as you so say, it is not my world JKR is describing . The only thing I can object to is accusations that the "history cannot be changed" idea is not a candidate on the grounds of logical consistency but that is pretty much it. I *will* try to stop my enthusiasm overcoming me on this one in future ? but I hope some of you found it as interesting as I did! JLV xx P.S. I think that time travel is impossible! Can you believe that? Unfortunately, I just don't know why does that make me irrational? From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 7 19:54:03 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:54:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42CD885B.3030501@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132211 Mira wrote: >"'_Somebody_ had to act', breathed Umbridge, as her >wand came to rest pointing directly at Harry's >forehead. [...] And taking a deep breath, she cried, >'Cruc---'. > >'NO!' shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind >Millicent Bulstrode. 'No - Harry - we'll have to tell >her!' > >Ginny was staring at Hermione as if she had never seen >her before." > >Of course, everybody is watching Hermione with >consternation, so Ginny's reaction is not different, >but, somehow, the way it was described made me think >at first (and second, and even third) read that it was >precisely at this point when Ginny realised that >Hermione's feelings for Harry were not entirely >friendly. > > heather: Meh. I first, second, and only saw that as Hermione getting an idea and shouting out at that moment. I also think she's over-acting it for Umbridge's sake, so the 'cracked voice' and the whole exaggerated panic over Harry is just part of the act. And so Ginny is staring at her, like the others, because she knows her quite while and would NOT have expected this behavious from her. But it is this precisely -- her behaving VERY out-of-character -- that is the 'hint' to the others that she's up to something. > Somehow it seems to >me that Hermione treats Harry as the adult, and Ron as >the child, a sure sign, I think, that she sees Ron as >a brother and Harry as a man, and I am pretty sure >that Ginny has noticed it, and might spill the beans >to the boys soon. > > Well, I tend to think sort of the opposite. I think she treats Harry like a brother -- but not a younger, teased-and-tormented brother. More like the comfortable twin. Or, perhaps, she treats him as a generic 'sibling'. Hermione's not given to overtly 'feminine' things, frills and giggling, etc. She tries to act like an adult herself. She's merely treating Harry as an equal. It's very asexual. Ron, on the other hand, she gets more frustrated with, more emotional about. If Harry goofs off, she rolls her eyes. If Ron goofs off, she throws a fit. She overreacts to his foibles. It's not so much that she treats him as a child, but perhaps that she expects him to be more 'perfect' than he is (as every girl wants her prince charming to be), while she has no false expectations of Harry because he's, well, just Harry. Basically, her reactions to Ron are more emotional. Whether that means they're eventually going to ship or not, I dunno. But I do think the whole rigamarole over the Yule ball, with folks telling Ron to basically 'wake up' and 'don't you realize?'... that they do like each other. heather the buzzard From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 19:53:16 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:53:16 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > Ginny was staring at Hermione as if she had never seen > her before." > > Of course, everybody is watching Hermione with > consternation, so Ginny's reaction is not different, > but, somehow, the way it was described made me think > at first (and second, and even third) read that it was > precisely at this point when Ginny realised that > Hermione's feelings for Harry were not entirely > friendly. I find it fascinating that so many people can read the same books and get so many different things out of them. I read it as just simple surprise and betrayal on Ginny's part. Hermione was cracking up because she was in a stressful situation and Hermione handles stress badly. Somehow it seems to > me that Hermione treats Harry as the adult, and Ron as > the child, a sure sign, I think, that she sees Ron as > a brother and Harry as a man, and I am pretty sure > that Ginny has noticed it, and might spill the beans > to the boys soon. You think that Hermione treats Harry more like a man? Would that be the part she harps on him to do his homework like a frustrated mother? Or the part where she agrees with his HoH when it comes to punishments or goes behind his back when it comes to mysterious packages? Maybe the part where she talks to him about the girl he likes as if he was a dull witted five year old? No I don't think Hermione treats Harry like a man at all. To me, she appears to alternte between being too scared to engage him (OOTP) or treating him like a child she has to supervise. I think she's actually rather demeaning to him a lot of the time. Now she and Ron on the other hand act like equals. Yes they argue, but when they do they are engaging with each other instead of avoiding things the way she and Harry do. Ron isn't afraid to call Hermione on the dumb stuff she does and she isn't afraid to call him on his. Their relationship is tempestuous but that just means it's going to be passionate and interesting. One thing I will say in agreement is that I think Hermione respects Harry more than she does Ron, but I also think that she has more romantic feelings for Ron. basically, she thinks he's hotter. I would venture that for R/Hr to have a relationship that is going to last beyond groping each other in the common room, Hermione is going to learn to respect Ron more. Maybe he'll do something especially heroic. Who knows. phoenixgod2000 From slmuth at hotmail.com Thu Jul 7 18:49:32 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:49:32 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's Snare (was:Mild TBAY, trying to answer JK's Edinburgh questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132213 Janeway: Wow Saraquel, I'm in awe! You found some truly brainteasing connections in cannon. Despite your well-founded skepticism with my Slytherin theory, I still think a modified version can survive, at least in not being completely *ruled out* by cannon. >Janeway wrote earlier: >So maybe he also provided some kind of time- >persistent magical >protection for his last surviving descendant in case his line was >ever in danger of disappearing completely. Saraquel: No, I don't think Slytherin did that. [LV] is still unsure why he survived and remarks in the graveyard that "it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked." If he had found something in the COS, he would have known that he was immune to the AK curse. Janeway: Very good point. At the least this means that SS didn??t leave an immortality potion in a bottle labeled ??Drink me to live forever.?? It??s still possible that he could have left something that LV used in his experiments without knowing its intended purpose. Or he could have given LV protection that LV is completely unaware of. Saraquel: We also know that he last entered the COS when he was 16, COS p230 "I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self ?K" He afterwards became Head Boy and must still have looked like Tom Riddle, not the snake like appearance of LV. So I think that the protection from the AK curse came about afterwards. Janeway: Also an excellent point. Given that he closed the Chamber at 16, in order to have received some protection from Slytherin that came into play much later, he would have had to: 1. Find something (information, ingredients, magical item) in the chamber, take it out, and use it later; or 2. Return to the chamber after he left school; or 3. Do something in the chamber at age 16 whose effects would only appear later. Your idea of a blood transfusion could conceivably work this way: (Saraquel: ??Maybe this is what happened with the snake blood in LV, it gradually took over and transformed the muggle blood into snake blood.??) Say he got a transfusion of blood or a non- lethal venom bite from the basilisk in the chamber which took a couple of decades to manifest itself as the new snake!Voldie. However, I agree that given these two points, the idea of some deliberate protection from SS becomes more tenuous. The only cannon I can draw on to support it is the very strong connection between Slytherin, snakes, and Voldemort. It seems more than coincidental that the representation of SS in the COS is a statue whose mouth opens to let out a snake; Voldemort transforms into something very like a snake; and his mark is a skull with a snake emerging from the mouth. At the very least, in choosing this mark LV is asserting a direct parallel between himself, SS, and the COS. (And the DEs would recognize the reference, because as Draco says, his father ??knows all about?? the first time the chamber was opened. COS p225). Saraquel: Tom Riddle hates his father's blood, so he does experiments to rid himself of his muggle blood, replacing it with snake blood, as in some sort of blood transfusion. Janeway: Or maybe snake venom? It could be like the old detective story standby when the murderer takes small amounts of poison in order to build up a tolerance, gradually increasing the amount until they can survive a dose that would kill anyone else. It just seems easier to get the venom (via fangs) into LV's blood than it would be to get a snake's blood into his blood. Saraquel: Snakes are cold blooded creatures. I once heard that when tickling for trout (catching trout fish with your bare hands) that you first have to cool your hand to the temperature of the river, otherwise you burn the cold blooded fish. When Quirrel/LV touches Harry in PS this is what happens: PS p213 "Quirrel let go of him. he looked around wildly to see where Quirrell had gone and saw him hunched in pain, looking at his fingers ?V they were blistering before his eyes." And again lower down the page Harry looks at Quirrell's hands and describes them, "they looked burnt, raw, red and shiny." In GoF, when LV finally does touch Harry in the graveyard, his finger is cold. So toying with the notion of cold blooded and warm blooded, warm or hot blooded is often used to describe people whose emotions run high and cold blooded used to describe people who seem to have no emotion or no empathy/compassion. Janeway: This is genius! I love this, it??s very subtle but it totally makes sense. Cold-blooded, unemotional, snakey LV vs. hot-blooded, caring, (lionhearted?) Harry. This makes me wonder if the bit of LV that made it into Harry was actually a drop of his blood. When Harry is hit by AK, he survives but receives a cut. When the AK rebounds, LV??s body goes splat and some of his blood splashes into Harry??s cut. Over the years this drop has been gradually multiplying (as in LV before him). Yes, it??s farfetched, but would help explain your next point: Saraquel: The protection given to Harry by his muggle mother, Lily, also concerns blood. Her muggle blood is running in his veins. OotP p 736 DD says "She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day." LV now has some of this in his body. Therefore Lily is in LV. Although, LV can now touch Harry, he has also re-introduced some muggle blood into himself. Janeway: So Harry and LV would have exchanged blood, and each have a piece of the other within them (they are blood brothers?K sorta). So this is fun to speculate about, but I'm not sure how likely I think it is. Going back to your original post, I agree with you that I don't think the answer is going to be incredibly complicated. Janeway, who sends her warmest thoughts and wishes to Londoners and all of the U.K. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 19:48:17 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:48:17 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Hi everyone, I was looking at the Database and saw a post which was > lamenting (among other things) the fact that all of the "good guys" > seem to be in Gryffindor, which seems a bit lazy on the part of > JKR. Surely there are some prominent members of Ravenclaw and > Hufflepuff in the Order? Well, Snape isn't a Gryffindor (I don't like the man at all, but he seems to be on the side of light), we don't know what house many of the other members were in--Tonks, Diggle, Vance, etc. could be from other houses. > > - Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for > Ravenclaw. And while she's no coward (and I have a feeling that HBP > is going to showcase a particularly brave action), let's face it: > her over-riding personality characteristics are intelligence and > studiousness. I say, put her in Ravenclaw. I don't know, I think you could make a case that Hermione is braver than *Harry*. Bravery isn't a lack of fear, bravery is going ahead and doing what needs to be done even though you're afraid. Hermione has that quality in spades. She's afraid of heights, but she got onto Buckbeak to rescue Sirius, and she climbed onto a thestral she *couldn't even see* to go to the Ministry when she *knew* it had to be a setup. Reading between the lines, I'll bet she even stood up to the Sorting Hat and told it she wanted to be in Gryffindor. > - Percy: > ...Not only have we never seen him act bravely, Other than, of course, when he jumped into a bare-knuckle fight with a bunch of Death Eaters at the World Cup. Amiable Dorsai From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 7 19:56:08 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:56:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CD88D8.2060403@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132215 As to why Hagrid was in Knockturn Alley >Pippin: >An explanation is implied when Ron starts puking giant slugs near >Hagrid's prize pumpkins. He really was shopping for slug repellent >MO. Hagrid behaves a bit like a strait-laced politician admitting a >fling in a Vegas casino -- his reasons were honest, just not >respectable. > > > I think Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley was meant to show why >the wizards tolerate the place despite the efforts of >people like Arthur to restrict the sale of things that are sold >there, like poisons. More important, it shows us that a shamefaced >admission may look like a lie. > > > heather: Also, I think it's meant to show that Hagrid dabbles... well, not in the dark arts, but in things he PROBABLY shouldn't be dabbling in. He buys dragon eggs from strange cloaked men in pubs, after all. If he thought there was an interesting creature in KA, or supplies he'd need to breed new interesting creatures... you can bet he'd be there... heather the buzzard From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Thu Jul 7 20:26:35 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:26:35 EDT Subject: parallels between HP and the world today Message-ID: <14.48b458e7.2ffee9fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132216 I've been lurking lately but with what is going on today, the attacks and london and all. Has anyone noticed the the parallel between osama bin laden=voldemort and his deatheaters and al quida. Here we are reading about how are choices define who we are and about a battle that will rock the wizarding world. In our world we are facing some same battles. For many americans the choice was what to do after 9/11, for some it was to join the military. In the wizarding world, it's do you go with or against voldie. I also want to add for those living in england, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your families and hope you are all safe. Danielle Dassero [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 20:10:31 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:10:31 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132217 Mira: IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a love triangle with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. JKR seems to think (according to her FAQ on the website) that we should have figured out the romance by now. Here's what I think it is: Ron likes Hermione, as evidenced by his jealousy over her and Krum's relationship. Hermione likes Harry because of his personality and his awesome acumen as a wizard. Harry doesn't even notice Hermione as a potential girlfriend. I think Ron will declare his love for Hermione, Hermione will respond that she likes Harry, Harry will be lost as usual, then the conflict between all three will erupt. Someone posted in the Ginny thread that Hermione and her had become friends because they are in the dormitory away from the boys, and they obviously talked to each other. Perhaps,they talked about Harry, Hermione revealed her feelings, and this is what cooled Ginny off of Harry. Ehren: IMO I am not convinced that there is a love triangle developing between the trio. JKR has always said it should be pretty obvious who will be with who (paraphrasing) and I just haven't seen the cannon to support that Hermione has a crush on Harry. I think Ron likes Hermione and that is obvious thru the obvious Krum jealousy, but I didn't see any actions from Hermione that could be jealousy towards Harry when he was... erm dating Cho or whatever their little thing was. I think Harry will wind up with Ginny because he needs someone who understands him and his friendship with Hermione and not be threatened by her. I always saw it that Ron liked Hermione but doesn't realize it/want to admit it and Hermione likes Ron but is getting a little weary from waiting around for him to organize his thoughts towards her. "And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am" Hermione added in an afterthought. "But I don't think your ugly." said Harry bemused "Harry, you're worse than Ron...well no, your not." she sighed as Ron himself came up to the table... (OoP pg 505 US Paperback) Hermione sighing makes me think she is frustrated with the hints that Ron likes her, like his jealousy towards Krum and buying her perfume for Christmas. I also think the whole scene where Umbridge is threatening to Crucio Harry is simply Hermione reacting because she can't stand to see anyone tortured. I believe she would have made up the story whether it was Harry, Ron, Neville or Ginny about to be cursed. Mira: "'_Somebody_ had to act', breathed Umbridge, as her wand came to rest pointing directly at Harry's forehead. [...] And taking a deep breath, she cried, 'Cruc---'. 'NO!' shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent Bulstrode. 'No - Harry - we'll have to tell her!' [...] > > Ginny was staring at Hermione as if she had never seen > her before." > > Of course, everybody is watching Hermione with > consternation, so Ginny's reaction is not different, > but, somehow, the way it was described made me think > at first (and second, and even third) read that it was > precisely at this point when Ginny realised that > Hermione's feelings for Harry were not entirely > friendly. > Would Hermione have acted the same if it was Ron, not > Harry, who was about to be crucio-ed? Probably. The > only difference I can think of is that Hermione would > have preferred to go together with Harry, rather than > Ron, inside the Forbidden Forrest. Somehow it seems to > me that Hermione treats Harry as the adult, and Ron as > the child, a sure sign, I think, that she sees Ron as > a brother and Harry as a man, and I am pretty sure > that Ginny has noticed it, and might spill the beans > to the boys soon. > Ehren: I don't think Ginny will spill the beans because she seems to respect her friendship with Hermione and keep her secrets, as she didn't tell the boys who Hermione was going with to the ball because it wasn't her place to tell. I don't think Hermione sees Ron as a boy and Harry as a man. As far as their maturity, I think she sees them equally. IMO, she definetly has done her fair share of molly-coddling both the boys. She nags Harry about Sirius, occlemency and accuses him of having the saving- people-thing (OoP-Just to name a few from one book). I think Ron and Hermione may have a lover's quarell or start dating and Harry will feel a little left out, but I don't think that Hermione loves Harry. I love the theory of the love triangle and sincerely hope I am wrong, but I just haven't read enough cannon to support Hermione pining for Harry. Oh well, nine days and we will soon know! Cheers and happy reading. Ehren From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 7 20:50:36 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:50:36 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: > Rachael: > > Rachael: > However, her feelings of faith are not really what are expressed in > the novels, but rather, her morals and ethics. Many Christians often > argue (and I am not saying any here has, just a pre-emptive reply in > case someone does) that when an author expresses views that are in > line with Christianity (for example, treating others the way you wish > to be treated), they believe that it is a Christian novel. However, > those themes are often present in most other religions, as well as in > most people's morality. The point of this is, unless JKR > specifically says she is trying to teach Christian morality, it is a > very hard thing to prove. Geoff: I wrote in post 131103: "I have commented on more than one occasion about JK Rowling, JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis in the context of their Christian beliefs. It is a well documented fact that Lewis /intended/ the Narnia books to be allegorical. His first book "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" is a retelling of the Christian gospel for children, pitched in a magical, fantasy world. The later books diverge from this in that the direct allegorical references are much fewer although, in "The Last Battle", there is some fascinating writing in his description of heaven. Tolkien certainly eschewed allegory - as I believe Jo Rowling has - but his Christian beliefs are well-known. He was one of the people instrumental in bringing CS Lewis to faith although, curiously, he was a Catholic while Lewis became an evangelical Protestant. I believe that writers who create books which are labours of love are bound to incorporate their views, hopes and beliefs into their work and it is there to be recognised even in a covert form by those who search. I do not believe that writers such as these would produce results in their stories which went against the grain of their own world view, be that Christian or otherwise. I think that characters such as Frodo or Harry Potter are the result of these labours of love; they are characters who are well fleshed out with whom we can relate. As any Christian worth his or her salt will tell you, our lives are like that. We have good days and bad days, do great things and crass things, things which we prefer, in hindsight, to forget about and I, for one, like to be able to see myself in a similar situation and maybe reacting in the same way." JKR is a member of the Church of Scotland and so I (and many others on the group) see her approaching HP in a Christian fashion. > Rachael: > The name has great importance to those that are Christian, BUT > because of the history of Christianity being imposed on the people > of wherever the British decided to colonize, the names do not > necessarily mean that everyone that celebrates the holidays has to > be Christian. Christmas and Easter have become so ingrained in (at > least) Western society and so commercialized that there doesn't > need to be any religion involved to celebrate them. Geoff: Why is this being laid on our doorstep as being due to British colonisation? With respect, we are not the only nation who took Christianity to other countries. There is a deeply ingrained streak in the British which sees our Christian historical traditions surface to remind ourselves of the true meaning of Christmas despite the veneer of commercialism. Why is it that so many people turn out to watch school Nativity plays or watch the TV programmes of carols from the big cathedrals? OK, so its maybe something they've done since childhood but it still allows the message of the love of Christ to be heard through the jingle of the cash tills. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 21:38:57 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:38:57 -0000 Subject: New theory about the gum wrappers In-Reply-To: <00d901c58309$5ff58f40$5d451b3f@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132219 Skrappy wrote: There seems to be quite a bit of "token" actions through out the books. Harry has to return to Privet Drive to maintain the protection of his Mother's sacrifice (even though there is no show of affection or love), The Dursley's give Harry Christmas gifts every year (regardless of their nature), etc. I was thinking of that and thinking of the sacrifice/protection that Lily gave Harry and... hmmm, I wonder if the gumwrappers are Neville's Mom's way of providing protection to him. She gives him a token gift when she sees him. (OotP p512, Am. Ed.) Again ? said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, Alice dear, very well- Neville, take it, whatever it is...." But Neville had already stretched out his hand,... Perhaps, however the state she is in, underneath she is aware and by providing with that token gift, she is providing him with some sort of protection. There is definitely more to Neville than we've seen as far as his involvement in the story. That has continued to unfold book after book. Is it possible that there was protection for both Neville and Harry ? That both of their Mother's were aware of the prophecy and not knowing which boy was going to be "marked" by LV, Dumbledore had them both provide protection. I think it is definitely possible and perhaps this is Alice's way to continue to provide it by these token gifts (regardless of their nature). Also, this has been going on for quite some time (possibly since she's been institutionalized). vmonte responds: Funny you should mention this. My brother's theory is that Neville's parents believed that the prophecy was about their son, and that they've been protecting their son by making everyone in the WW believe that Neville is untalented, forgetful, bumbling, etc. The gum wrappers may be mom's way of keeping Neville off of Voldemort's radar. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 21:18:26 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:18:26 -0000 Subject: "Harry didn't literally "catch" the Snitch with his hands but with his mouth..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132220 >Saraquel wrote in a different post: In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think about: "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't Voldemort die?" Not, "Why did Harry live?" but, "Why didn't Voldemort die?" The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn't he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die? but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy." >I vmonte wrote: Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this up?) >Pastafor5 wrote: You could be on to something here. This is also part of the ballet story "The Firebird" (phoenix?). In the version of this story that I've read, the evil Kotschei keeps his soul in an egg in a box. The firebird lulls the evil creatures who serve Kotschei (dementors/death eaters?) to sleep so the hero can get to the box to destroy the egg. Interesting. I'm thinking Voldemort could somehow have his soul magically protected within himself. Could the dementors play a roll in retreiving it? vmonte now: Now on a different post there was a disscussion on the significance of the quidditch matches in the series. I pasted Debbie's old essay: >Debbie (Cont'd): PS/SS I've left this for last, because the parallels do not seem to work as foreshadowing like the parallels in the later books do. The primary parallel I see in the first Quidditch match, against Slytherin, is that the Trio suspect Snape both of trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match and of trying to get through the obstacles to reach the Stone. However, since Harry doesn't learn that Snape was protecting him instead of jinxing him at the Quidditch match until he faces Quirrelmort, the element of foreshadowing is lacking. There is some foreshadowing in the Hufflepuff match, where Harry's grab of the Snitch in record time foreshadows his ability later on to retrieve the Stone instantly from the Mirror when he realizes he needs to keep Quirrelmort from getting it (ch. 17). However, I find this parallel less satisfying than those in the later books. >I vmonte replied: I believe that the quidditch in this book reflects what happened at Godric's Hollow. Debbie wrote about the ease of Harry catching the snitch above. Well, look at how baby Harry was able to defeat Voldemort at GH. (And it was really due to the fact that his mother had placed a spell on Harry to protect him.) >Marcela wrote: What I think that was very significant in this match, and ultimately foreshadowing the end of the book, was that Harry didn't literally "catch" the Snitch with his hands but with his "mouth", almost swallowing it. This to me foreshadows that Harry "contained" the Stone all this time (Mirror scene), but didn't "want" it for himself (didn't swallow Snitch). vmonte again: Is it possible that Harry "swallowing the snitch" is symbolic for what happened to Harry at GH? Why is the "snitch" called the "snitch?" It reminds me of the snitch in the bar who heard the prophecy. Is it possible that the snitch in the bar was also carrying Riddle's soul? Could this soul have then been transfered to Harry at GH? Vivian http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132190 (I was so sad to hear about the attacks in London today. My family will keep England in our prayers. I hope that none of you have lost friends or family today. GOD BLESS YOU!) From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 22:09:16 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:09:16 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In JKR's words? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132221 Davenclaw: "So people who get all worked up about Harry Potter books need to differentiate between the risk of children rejecting religion in favor of magic and witchcraft, and the development of the ability to understand events that are not explained by science, which is necessary to make that "leap of faith." That is why the Catholic Church issued a statement a few years back in support of the Harry Potter books." The Harry Potter series has no relationship to witchcraft in the sense it's used by pagans, wiccans, and the like. There is no calling on the Dark Powers or spirits of the earth. In the wizard world, magic is the science and technology of that world, used for the things we use technology for today. That point is made more than once (by Arthur, usually). What makes the books what they are are the themes of love (there have been few stories in many years with so much love in them), courage, sacrifice, and conscience. It is Harry's power to love that separates him from evil; the story is full of sacrifice, with much more to come, I'm certain. It is compassion for Luna that starts bringing Harry back to humanity at the end of OoP. It is love for everyone that will lead Harry to whatever great sacrifice awaits him as the price of destroying Voldemort. All this was done without any explicit mention of a religious framework. In this JKR reminds me of Tolkien, a devout Catholic, who espoused his inner experience through his characters. His friend Lewis, an equally devout Catholic, was more explicit, but their thinking was much the same. BTW: My daughters' parish (Catholic) is going to have a Harry Potter film festival around the time of HBP's release. Jim Ferer From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 16:31:56 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:31:56 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132222 --- > > "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use > magic..." > > OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) > > > > *** I think that this line in OOTP was just a mistake by JKR. I > thought I had remembered JKR commenting about this in an interview > so I went to look for it and I found it. Here is her answer on the > subject: > > Question:Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be > allowed to do magic openly again ? (Jan Campbell) > > JKR: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever > since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his > magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to > be a bit inept. Finwitch: Well, they couldn't use magic because they were being *watched* by the Ministry (Portkeys need authorization and apparation needs a licence) AND the ministry was looking for an excuse to ran them in. About Hagrid not being 'exactly supposed to' - well, maybe there was some Umbridge-decree on, one that requires at least passed OWLS as well as being of age to be qualified to use magic outside the magic school... still, that doesn't explain why *Maxime* wouldn't/couldn't do magic. It's not like anyone ever snapped *her* wand, and I doubt that *her* school is subject to the British Ministry (her native tongue is French, so...) Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 17:03:10 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:03:10 -0000 Subject: God in the WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132223 "zgirnius" : > > It seems likely that Muggle religions in the Potterverse were quite > similar to historical Christianity as regards magic. I forget which > book it is where the summer assignment for History of Magic was to > write an essay regarding witch-burning. Finwitch: I agree - and I suppose that, with all the Muggleborns/one Muggle Parent/Otherwise raised in Muggle community Hogwarts follows mostly as the Muggle counterpart /Real-life Britain has it. With Gryffindors, only Ron has full-wizard view. What's wizards (pureblood wizard, that is, no Muggle influence) view on afterlife? If any are very much interested, they'll join the Department of Mysteries and study in the Death Chamber, but they can also talk to ghosts. Also, I believe that some of them are into Druidism/Celtic ways, the ancient Egyptian religion etc. but mostly, no one gives it a thought. Anyway I do theorize that Department of Mysteries and Healing is what wizards did before the Muggles turned against them. Wizards were the Spirit-men, Medicine-men and the ones performing the sacred rituals of the earliest times. (I think the main reason of banning witchcraft in the Dark ages was to get rid of competition and secure the place of the institution). Finwitch From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 23:53:49 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:53:49 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ehren" > wrote: > > Hello fellow HP fans: > > > > I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get some insight for. > > Sorry if this has been discussed in previous posts. > > > > 1. I am finishing up reading CoS and a thought occured to me. > > Since Hagrid's name was cleared and we know he wasn't resposible > > for opening the Chamber why isn't he allowed to use magic now? > > > > "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use > > magic..." > > OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) > > JR: > > *** I think that this line in OOTP was just a mistake by JKR. > ... JKR commenting about this in an interview ... > > Question:Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be > allowed to do magic openly again ? (Jan Campbell) > > JKR: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever > since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his > magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to > be a bit inept. > > So it is clear that Hagrid is allowed to do magic. Seems like a > Flint to me. > > JR bboyminn: As I have pointed out in the past, there is a difference between Hagrid being generally allowed to do magic, and Hagrid being OFFICIALLY allowed to perform magic. When Hagrid was expelled, there was some official action taken against him. Until the wizard world officially reverse that action, it will always be hanging over Hagrid's head. In general, even before CoS, people tended to politely look the other way when Hagrid perfomed magic. Then knew Hagrid, they understood that he was generall harmless, and saw no reason why Hagrid shouldn't magically encourage his garden to grow, or for him to perform little 'householdie' task. Remember that magic is completely ingrained into their lives, to not be able to routinely use it in the common aspects of daily life is unthinkable. Even later, in Goblet of Fire, Bagman who is a Dept. Head in the Ministry acknowledges that Hagrid is using magic, and gives his implied approval. So, unofficially, no one cares about Hagrid performing magic. BUT in OotP, everything has changed. The Ministry is looking for any way to harass and discredit Dumbledore or anyone close to him. Now the 'officialness' of Hagrid's magic matters a great deal. What has to happen is the court has to convene a hearing, and make an official ruling that reverses the previous action against Hagrid, then and only then, can he engage in magic free from any possible retribution. That means that Hagrid's statement quoted above from OotP is not inconsistent. It reflects the current emphasis that the Ministry is placing on the 'officialness' of Hagrid's magic. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 16:58:00 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:58:00 -0000 Subject: examplary Slytherin (WAS:If I were a sorting hat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132226 Finwith wrote: Now: who's the examplary Slytherin? Tom Riddle, a Malfoy (father or son, take your pick) or Severus Snape? Or Phineas Nigellus? Or have we yet to see this person? Ehren here: I think what we know of everyone above fits well in the Slytherin house. As Tom Riddle is Slytherin's heir I think he would be the obvious candidate. He's a parselmouth, ambitious, hates muggleborns, and definetly puts himself above others (like framing Hagrid for opening the Chamber), and definetly evil. However, alot of these things are what we see LV as, are Tom Riddle and Voldie the same person or two separate people...I think that could be a separate post. We know LV is pure evil and there is not really any chance of LV saying to HP, "Gee Harry, I'm sorry I killed your parents and tried to murder you, but what do you say to putting our past behind us and being friends." I think after Voldie, Lucious is the other examplary Slytherin as he is LV front runner in Muggle torture (GoF) and he helped in reopening the Chamber of Secrets through the diary. As for Snape and Draco: There is still time for redemption on Draco's part and we know there is more to Snape that we have yet to discover. I don't think there is enough cannon yet to properly argue Phineas, but from what we know of him, he did well in Slytherin. I have someone new to add: Has it ever been said what house people like Umbridge or Crouch Sr were in? They are people that are definetly not DE's but they are not exactly on the good side. I am curious to see someone in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff betray Harry before the end of the series. Cheers, Ehren From martyb1130 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 00:01:10 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:01:10 EDT Subject: Fluffy's Music Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132227 I've got a question for everyone. In the SS when Harry, Hermione, and Ron are going to the trapped door (aka Fluffy) they know that they have to bring some sort of instrument in order to put Fluffy to sleep. Obviously we know that Quirrell got there before them and already had put a spell on the harp. If Quirrell hadn't gotten there before them, what instrument were they going to put a spell on? They did not even bring anything, how could they assume that Quirell would be there before them? Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 23:53:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:53:42 -0000 Subject: God in the WW - Religion and Religious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > Ffred: > > I have two theories. The first one is that wizarding folk > > relinquished religion very early in history, when they > > discovered that their abilities were not divinely given, but > > were inherited. The Muggle world continued in the same manner > > as our own, and the cross fertilisation accounts for things > > like Harry having a godfather and the like. > > > > The second one is that religion in the Potterverse doesn't > > have a prohibition on magic anyway... > zgirnius: > It seems likely that Muggle religions in the Potterverse were quite > similar to historical Christianity as regards magic. I forget which > book it is where the summer assignment for History of Magic was to > write an essay regarding witch-burning. > > -zgirnius bboyminn: I'm not sure if I have anything to contribute other than a side note. First, we must make a distinction, both in the real world and the wizard world, between 'religious' and 'religion'. In this I mean we must make a distinction between the moral, theological, spritual, and philisophical aspects of religion, and the petty, frequently corrupt, often power-mad, always self-serving bureaucracy of religion. There have been terrible atrocities, perhaps some of the worst in history, commited by religion in the name of being religious, when in reality the 'religious' aspect was merely a cover screen for the wholly corrupt, completely unreligious, self-serving, power-mad ends of hopelessly flawed human beings acting in the name of religion. We need only look at the history of the Catholic Church and modern day Islamic extremist to see the truth in that statement. Wizards have every reason to reject the corrupt bureaucracy of 'named' religions, they have every reason to reject those named religions based on their atrocious action in the past. But that doesn't mean they have to reject the core values and philosophy of those religions. There are many people in the real world who reject the corruption, and the tedious pointlessness and hypocrisy of 'Church' while as the same time identifing themselves with a named religion, and making their own personal peace their their own personal God, which, by the way, is exactly how it is suppost to work. The bible, somewhere in Mathew I think, says that it is not those who speak the words of God, but those who live the life of God, who will truly enter the Kingdom. I really see no conflict between wizards and general religion. Since in JKR's world, magic is not founded in the calling up of demons and evil spirit, since it is an innate inherent gift of life, it is not at all incompatable with any existing religion. I can easily see wizard, exactly like humans, reject the bureaucracy that has so horribly persecuted them through out history, while at the same time embracing the philosophy even to the point of identifying with specific named religions. So, in the shortest number of words, I see no incompatability between JKR's wizard world and religion. As far as why we don't see more religion in the books, it's simply not part of the story. It's no more part of or relavant to the text of this story than pointless pages of Harry and Ron taking a shower (If that's what you want, there is plenty of HP Slash fiction out there). On a more general level, it really isn't necessary to cram religious references into every single aspect of our lives. The underlying moral subtext is there, if your willing and able to see it, then that is enough. It is far better to come to religion by revelation, the true bringer of wisdom and truth, than by explanation. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From joj at rochester.rr.com Thu Jul 7 22:52:14 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:52:14 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: <20050707190252.32636.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132229 > --- Chris wrote: > > IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a > > love triangle > > with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. Joj writes: I agree. I see a triangle coming. I think it will play into the plot as jealousy causing Ron to do some kind of damage (unintentionally). Mira wrote: > Ginny was staring at Hermione as if she had never seen > her before." > > Of course, everybody is watching Hermione with > consternation, so Ginny's reaction is not different, > but, somehow, the way it was described made me think > at first (and second, and even third) read that it was > precisely at this point when Ginny realized that > Hermione's feelings for Harry were not entirely > friendly. I love getting different interpretations of the books. That had never occurred to me before, but your idea intrigues me. I'd love to know what kind of girl talk has gone on between Hermione and Ginny. Joj From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 00:19:39 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:19:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fluffy's Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005801c58352$bb83c860$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132230 I've got a question for everyone. In the SS when Harry, Hermione, and Ron are going to the trapped door (aka Fluffy) they know that they have to bring some sort of instrument in order to put Fluffy to sleep. Obviously we know that Quirrell got there before them and already had put a spell on the harp. If Quirrell hadn't gotten there before them, what instrument were they going to put a spell on? They did not even bring anything, how could they assume that Quirell would be there before them? Brodeur Sherry now: Actually, I think you're remembering the movie. In the book, they bring the flute that Hagrid gave Harry for Christmas. I think it's Hermione who plays it till it's her time to jump through the trap door. I don't think there was a harp. Sherry From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 23:20:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707232024.85202.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132232 > bboyminn: > > I think Snape's efforts to get Harry expelled are not with the > intent of truly getting Harry expelled, but with the intent of > bullying and intimidating Harry. This is Snape's way of keeping > Harry for getting too full of himself, keeping him in his place. And the proof of this is in OOTP when Hogwarts has a headmistress who'd expel Harry in a heartbeat and give Snape a raise for making the suggestion. The e-threat never passes Snape's lips in OOTP. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 22:28:53 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:28:53 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132233 > >>Rachael: > > As well, I would like to add that I have godparents, though > neither my parents or I are Christian. It was just done to > specify who would take care of my brother and I if anything > happened to my parents. Betsy Hp: Harry had more than just a godparent, though. He had an actual christening. And that would imply a priest or pastor of some sort. And it would imply some sort of Christian faith. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a *Christ*-ening. And, as another poster pointed out, the christening occured during a bleak and dangerous time. So it must have had some sort of meaning for Lily and/or James other than a chance to have a party and get their names listed in the right papers. But, I don't think this has a *huge* meaning for the books. I think it adds a bit of flavor because it suggests a certain background for Harry. It doesn't turn the books into a religous tale any more than Tom Sawyer going to Sunday school turns Mark Twain's book into a religious tale. I would also add that there isn't anything in the magic practised at in the Harry Potter universe that really goes against Judaic/Christian beliefs. At least as far as I've seen. There's no calling on other gods, no raising folks from the dead, no sacrificing of virgins or anything of that ilk. In a sense the magic is almost scientific with very strong cause and effect laws at play. If you look at the magic practised in the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" universe, where Willow calls on, and makes sacrifices to, various gods in order to make use of their powers, the Harry Potter books seem quite benign. [Though, as an aside, Voldemort does seem to verge on breaking some pretty serious Judaic/Christian taboos in the graveyard at the end of GoF. But as he's the main villain I think his implied blasphemies help add a certain flavor as well.] It reads pretty obviously to me that several of the characters in Harry Potter are Christian to some extent. However I'd be quite surprised if *all* the characters are. With the amount of diversity JKR has given us in the Hogwarts student body I'm sure there are Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and agnostics, etc. I do think most British purebloods are Anglican but that's merely an educated guess on my part. However, I doubt that JKR will give us much more in regards to the WW's religous beliefs than she's already given us, because while it gives the universe a certain flavor it's not really important to the story. Just as setting the story in England is important to the flavor but JKR is probably not going to have characters discussing their reactions to Britian joining the EU or their view on fox hunts. It's background information not an important plot point. As to the morality of the story, I don't think JKR has set out to write a morality play, but I think there *is* a strong moral core to the books. But I think the moral core is pretty universal and I think it strikes a chord in people no matter their beliefs. I think that's part of the reason the books are so popular. Betsy Hp (with warmest thoughts to the British folks on this list) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 23:36:44 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707233644.48109.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132234 --- Inge wrote: > "'You heard James?' said Lupin, in a strange voice. > Once again - Lupin seems surprised to learn that Harry heard his > dad - as if it shouldn't be possible. Lupin knows more than he > wants Harry to know. Why does Lupin start to stutter when he talks > about James? Why does he > suddenly want to end the Patronus-lesson when he learns about Harry > hearing James? I don't think that Lupin was at GH; the truth doesn't need to be that complicated. I assumed - when I read POA - that Lupin assumed (and took a lot of comfort from the assumption) that Harry at 15 months was too young to remember anything about that night or to understand what happened. That while it was tragic to lose his parents at least he had no memory of the matter. And then to find that Harry remembers his father's words and his mother screaming is a pretty shattering blow to Lupin's comforting fiction of an unaware Harry. His first impulse is to do something comforting but he pulls back - not because of an ulterior motive but because Lupin always pulls back in emotional matters. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 00:53:45 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:53:45 -0000 Subject: Basilisk & Voldemort-connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132235 I vmonte wrote: Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this up?) Pastafor5 responded: You could be on to something here. This is also part of the ballet story "The Firebird" (phoenix?). In the version of this story that I've read, the evil Kotschei keeps his soul in an egg in a box. The firebird lulls the evil creatures who serve Kotschei(dementors/death eaters?) to sleep so the hero can get to the box to destroy the egg. SNIP! Inge now: Ok - now it gets really interesting. If Voldemort's soul is kept in an egg (in a box maybe) - then this could very well be the part in the story where Neville's toad, Trevor comes into play. Let me quote (COS - Bloomsbury - p. 215: "Of the many fearsome beasts and monsters that roam the land, there is none more curious or more deadly than the Basilisk, known also as the King of Serpents. This snake, which may reach gigantic size, and live many hundreds of years, is born from a chicken's egg, hatched beneath a toad. It's methods of killing are wondrous, for aside from its deadly and venomous fangs, the Basilisk has a murderous stare, and all who are fixed with the beam of its eye shall suffer instant death. Spiders flee before the Basilisk, for it is their mortal enemy, and the Basilisk flees only from the crowing of the rooster, which is fatal to it." Now - what have we got here? Voldmort's soul - inside an egg - waiting to be brought back to life with a little help from Trevor? Is this what Voldemort wants? Is this his final goal? To become the Basilisk - the King of Serpents? After all - it lives for hundreds of years - in this case probably forever, had Harry (and the firebird, Fawkes) not put an end to it. Voldemort seeks immortality. Is this the way he's going to finally get it? Im not sure what Im getting at here - but this could be something - and I think this could be what Rowling has referred to as the link between COS and HBP ?? And could there be a connection, too, between the fatal eyes of the Basilisk and Harry's eyes? And what's with the Rooster in all this? I don't know. But Im sure some of you clever guys out there can tell me :- ) Inge From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 01:01:47 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:01:47 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132237 > >>Phoenixgod: > > One thing I will say in agreement is that I think Hermione > respects Harry more than she does Ron, but I also think that she > has more romantic feelings for Ron. basically, she thinks he's > hotter. > Betsy Hp: I agree! Actually, that explains why Hermione is constantly harping on Ron. Because I'm quite sure that Hermione has some definite ideas about what defines the perfect boyfriend. And I'm sure words like "sensitive" "intelligent" "caring" "cultured" "well-read" are a strong part of that definition. A boy who rolls around laughing because his best mate scored a kiss does not fit. And yet, that's the boy who gets her heart racing. Most frustrating. Hermione is attempting to beat a round peg into a square hole. Many a girl has made the same mistake. Betsy Hp From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 01:02:34 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:02:34 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132238 > "dungrollin" wrote: > 3. According to JKR the Lestranges were not in on the prophecy, and > their reasons for attacking the Longbottoms were not to do with > Neville. > This is the important bit ----> > 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds > uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had finished > breaking through her memory charm (but before he disposed of her, > obviously).<----- Saraquel writes: Hey, I like that explanation of the Longbottoms state, but I don't think that Crouch was the one to perform the original memory charm. I think it would probably have been DD. Referring to my previous post 132070, and I'm quoting now "I think that what Snape told DD that convinced him to trust him, was what experiments LV had done to try and achieve immortality. Proof that the DEs know this is in GoF p562 when LV addresses the DEs in the graveyard "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" DD also had the prophecy, he knew that either Harry or Neville was the ONLY one who could conquer LV. So with these two bits of information, he set about working out how to finally conquer LV. I suspect that DD has been putting into action a plan he hatched even BEFORE LV tried to kill Harry. So he must have sat down with the Potters and the Longbottoms and devised something which would be a failsafe to keep both Harry and Neville alive in the event that LV tried to kill them." Adding to that, DD might well have then performed a memory charm on them (with their agreement)to keep that plan and the prophecy secret, even from them, so that if they were attacked by DEs they wouldn't give it away. I know it sounds like madness to say that they could enact a plan they didn't know about, but it seems that the whole thing hinged on a mother sacrificing herself for her child. This is an instinctive thing, or they could just be left with the knowledge that the only hope for their child's survival would be their own sacrifice. As a mother, I'd have agreed to that. I'm not convinced that the Longbottoms have a big secret (well information that DD doesn't already know) to give away. That does't answer the question as to why the Lestranges attacked the Longbottoms in particular. But I am assuming LV knew the whole of the first line of the prophecy - up to "seventh month dies". He definitely didn't know any further. He would have been interested from that moment on in both families. So even if the Lestranges didn't know the prophecy they might have known that LV was interested in the Longbottoms. Yes, very weak argument I know :-) "dungrollin" wrote: > So "Who Knew The Prophecy?" is an important question, the answer > to which JKR is not yet ready to reveal. Well, I'm wondering about our goat obsessed Aberforth for one. He owns/works in the Hogshead after all. But where that leads, who knows, probably nowhere. Saraquel From logic_alley at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 00:15:40 2005 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:15:40 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I often wondered at JKR's thought process when she decided to > include Christmas and Easter in the books. I think the basic structure of the books is just so tied to the British school structure, and Christmas and Easter are major elements in the school calendar, that she put them in. It's interesting that there aren't any non-Christian/Muggle holidays in the books. At the start of the first one, McGonigal said Harry would be famous in the wizard world and people will celebrate something (can't remember off hand if it's his birthday or the Voldemorts first defeat) but we never actually see Harry Potter Day happen or any other special Wizard-only holiday. (Things like the Quiddich Cup or Nearly Headless Nick's deathday are celebrations, but not holidays). I think personally that it's just an area JKR left out. They ought to have special Wizard holidays because almost every population develops it's own holidays, and they probably shouldn't celebrate Christmas and Easter. -- Logic Alley -- From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 01:13:53 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:13:53 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms/Trevor (sequel to Basilisk/Voldemort-connection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: 3. According to JKR the Lestranges were not in on the prophecy, and their reasons for attacking the Longbottoms were not to do with Neville. SNIP ! Inge: Having just posted a little something on how Trevor might come into play as the toad, beneath which, the egg (including Voldemort's soul) is hatched..... the above got me thinking that Trevor is the reason the Longbottoms were tortured. Voldemort's soul had gone - the LeStrange's somehow knew that Trevor would be the toad they'd need. Longbottoms didn't give away where to find Trevor - they were tortured and ended up at St. Mungo's. It was later given to Neville (sorry, I don't remember by who) and Neville was told to never lose sight of the animal - which is why he's very upset every time Trevor escapes him...... From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 8 01:10:02 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:10:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and Magic References: <42CCBCEC.90705@dc.rr.com> Message-ID: <42CDD26A.00001A.03740@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 132241 smilingator wrote: << snip >> More likely though, I think JKR may have made a blooper. I mean, if it's okay for him to TEACH at a school for wizards, I would think it'd be okay for him to use a little magic! << snip >> Donna says: I hope I'm not mixing movie with canon and my books aren't handy to look this up but I'm thinking that in CoS there's a scene where Hagrid is telling Harry that he is going to see DD about permission to put a charm around the chicken coop because something is killing the chickens. If I am remembering correctly and not mixing sources up, then this indicates that Hagrid can, with permission, to magic. smilingator wrote: << snip >> What always struck me odd about this was that Harry received a letter accusing him of using the Hover charm in CoS when it was in fact Dobby. It seemed to me that the owl mail system (which could find Harry wherever he was at the beginning of SS/PS) is much more accurate than the MoM and its monitoring of underage magic. << snip >> Donna says: My thinking about Harry being credited for the Hover charm and not Dobby is because Harry is the only one on Privet Dr. with magical abilities and the WW seems to feel that house elves do not leave their master's place unless told to do so thus, there was no reason to suspect anyone but Harry for performing the charm. Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From logic_alley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 23:57:55 2005 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:57:55 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > It is a well documented fact that Lewis /intended/ the Narnia books > to be allegorical. His first book "The Lion, the Witch and the > Wardrobe" is a retelling of the Christian gospel for children, > pitched in a magical, fantasy world. The later books diverge from > this in that the direct allegorical references are much fewer > although, in "The Last Battle", there is some fascinating writing in > his description of heaven. I have read writings by Lewis in which he stated that he did not intend The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe to be a retelling of biblical stories, but rather he was trying to tell a story which would give children an understanding of what it would mean for someone to give his life for them. He might have said other things elsewhere, but I didn't think it was a well-documented fact, as you suggest. - Logic Alley- From arolls at igc.org Thu Jul 7 23:25:15 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:25:15 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132243 > Mira: > IMO, I think JKR is developing a little bit of a love triangle > with the trio that will eventually lead to disaster. JKR seems to > think (according to her FAQ on the website) that we should have > figured out the romance by now. Here's what I think it is: Ron likes > Hermione, as evidenced by his jealousy over her and Krum's > relationship. Hermione likes Harry because of his personality and his > awesome acumen as a wizard. Harry doesn't even notice Hermione as a > potential girlfriend. I'm fine with Ron and Hermy - in fact, I figured it was a done deal from the beginning. I think Harry will realize (if not in book 6, then in 7) that he's got feelings for Ginny, but she will (being the no- nonsense, girl-power witch that she is) say "For heaven's sake, Harry! we're at war! Can't it wait until after we've disposed of he- who-must-not-be-etc..?" I'm just wondering who Grawp is going to end up with... -allison From wyzdyx at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 02:01:42 2005 From: wyzdyx at yahoo.com (Marci Wyzdyx) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape & Harry (was FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives) In-Reply-To: <1120701644.1834.34969.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050708020142.31365.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132244 KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Meh, I don't know if he is always trying to get him expelled, how many times has he actually tried to get Harry expelled. If I'm to keep an open mind on both characters, then, 9 out of 10 times I see Snape harrasing Harry when he is breaking rules, or Snape thinks he is breaking rules. So, his strict interpritation of things makes him look quite mean to someone like Harry. IMO, Harry's problem is not that Snape wants to expel him; the problem is Snape is holding a grudge against James & Sirius for amusing themselves by abusing him. He mistreats Harry by 1) making sure his potions don't get graded (broken beakers, for instance), 2) making HRH assist Slytherins, but not Neville in making potions, and 3) giving detentions to HRH for infractions that would never earn a detention for any Slytherin student. Harry seems to feel that Snape has singled hm out for unfair treatment. In OotP DD agrees with Harry's assessment of Snape's hatred. " "I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot -- another old man's mistake -- that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape would overcome his feelings about your father -- I was wrong." " Wyzdyx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prncssme at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 02:14:57 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:14:57 -0000 Subject: *spoiler* Scholastic Back Cover *spoiler* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132245 s p o i l e r s p a c e * * * * * * http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/hbp_coverpics.htm The Leaky Cauldron has teeny tiny pics of the Scholastic HBP full cover and you can clearly see Ron and Hermione looking up at a dark mark! So the question remains, what is that mark hanging over? Any speculation? I personally think it may be the Burrow, but that's just because I'm convinced a Weasley's gonna die. ;o) - Princess Sara From scarah at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 03:31:34 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:31:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fluffy's Music In-Reply-To: <005801c58352$bb83c860$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <005801c58352$bb83c860$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <3202590507072031373b6e21@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132246 There is a harp, but it's not playing when they arrive. Ron figures Snape must have used it to get past Fluffy. Harry plays the flute first, but then motions that he wants to be the first down the trapdoor, so hands it over to Hermione. Sarah From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 04:44:02 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:44:02 -0000 Subject: *spoiler* Scholastic Back Cover *spoiler* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" wrote: > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > > s > p > a > c > e > > * > * > * > * > * > * > Haven't you gone to the Scholastic site - there's a ring that has a broken stone, and the back cover shows the pensieve standing alone, emitting the green light, but there's a row boat in a river in the background and although it seems empty, there's a shining image in the water - which shouldn't be there since the light is coming from a different direction - and it appears that someone is in the boat, only they can't be 'seen' by the human eye. There's also stuff written on the wall behind the row boat, but it's unintelligible... also if you look into the pensieve light (after enlarging it quite a bit - you can almost see the face of....Sirius Black! KathyO > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/hbp_coverpics.htm > > The Leaky Cauldron has teeny tiny pics of the Scholastic HBP full > cover and you can clearly > see Ron and Hermione looking up at a dark mark! So the question > remains, what is that > mark hanging over? Any speculation? > > I personally think it may be the Burrow, but that's just because I'm > convinced a Weasley's > gonna die. ;o) > > - Princess Sara From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:25:52 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 06:25:52 -0000 Subject: Betrayal by a Ravenclaw was exemplary Slytherin (WAS:If I were a sorting hat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ehren" > > I am curious to see someone in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff betray Harry > before the end of the series. > Someone from Ravenclaw already has: Cho's friend Marietta. Karen From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 06:42:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 06:42:28 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In JKR's words? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: Jim Ferer: > What makes the books what they are are the themes of love (there have > been few stories in many years with so much love in them), courage, > sacrifice, and conscience. It is Harry's power to love that separates > him from evil; the story is full of sacrifice, with much more to come, > I'm certain. It is compassion for Luna that starts bringing Harry > back to humanity at the end of OoP. It is love for everyone that will > lead Harry to whatever great sacrifice awaits him as the price of > destroying Voldemort. > > All this was done without any explicit mention of a religious > framework. In this JKR reminds me of Tolkien, a devout Catholic, who > espoused his inner experience through his characters. His friend > Lewis, an equally devout Catholic, was more explicit, but their > thinking was much the same. Geoff: I couldn't agree more. I've mentioned Tolkien and Lewis on many occasions in comparing the ethos of the Harry Potter books with those of Narnia and Middle-Earth. The Wizarding World, like the others mentioned, is not overtly Christian but, as Jim says, what keeps the story on track is the core theme of love. This is not unique to our faith but the two "great commandments" as emphasised by Christ are the driving force behind the actions of Christian believers. If I may pick up on one small point, Lewis was /not/ a Catholic. One of the most interesting features of their friendship was that Lewis came from an Ulster Protestant background which is very strongly anti- Catholic - listen to the statements of people such as Ian Paisley to gat a flavour of it. He came to real faith with the help of Tolkien and Hugo Dyson. It was always a slight disappointment to JRRT that he did not embrace Catholicism but went on to becaome a leading apologist for evangelical Protestants. From marshman1570 at mac.com Fri Jul 8 03:44:15 2005 From: marshman1570 at mac.com (marshman1570) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 03:44:15 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Hi everyone, I was looking at the Database and saw a post which was > lamenting (among other things) the fact that all of the "good guys" > seem to be in Gryffindor, .... I've wondered myself about the seemingly mis-cast members of Gryffindor; I've also seen several posts on several sites along this same line. As mentioned, Neville seems to be a perfect Hufflepuff, and in OOP (Ch. 19, pp. 398 US HC) Terry Boot, a Ravenclaw himself, asks Hermione "You can do a Protean Charm?....How come you're not in Ravenclaw?" Ron seems at times to be quite the scaredy-cat, not exactly the definition of Gryffindor brave (think spiders...). With Seamus (my choice for the HBP), the hat took quite a while to decide where to sort him, leading many to believe that he was a potential Slytherin, just as the Hat suggested to Harry that he himself might be. (Though Harry, pulling Gryffindor's sword out of the hat in CoS, proves to be a true Gryffindor, according to Dumbledore.) And speaking of mis-cast, Luna Lovegood doesn't seem to be quite in the Ravenclaw mold, does she?. What does it mean that many of Harry's closest Griffyndor and other friends seem to be mis-sorted? What clues are here? I've got a few thoughts.... Theoretical..... S P O I L E R S Just as Harry pulls the sword "out of the hat" in CoS, others will show their true natures in the final two books. Neville has already shown great bravery in OOP, and will continue to do so, quite possibly up to the point of giving his life to save others (his parents?) probably in HBP. Ron will show even greater courage and bravery than Neville, but in book 7. Further, this will only happen after Ron has shown terrible cowardice (with terrible results, like the death of a family member) in HBP. Hermione will do something very dumb but courageous; something very out of character. I just have no idea what this will be, or when, or whether the result will be good or bad. When Seamus turns out to be the HBP, he will be very unwilling to accept his birthright, but in book 7, he will bravely accept his destiny. Finally, Luna will have whatever enchantment affects her memory and accuity removed, and she will turn out to be smarter than Hermione. Just a couple of thoughts. Marshman From smilingator81 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 04:35:23 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:35:23 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: <42CDD26A.00001A.03740@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132252 I think that my previous message in this post has been misinterpreted, so I will try and make myself a little clearer. Donna replied to me: > > I hope I'm not mixing movie with canon and my books aren't handy to look > this up > but I'm thinking that in CoS there's a scene where Hagrid is telling Harry > that > he is going to see DD about permission to put a charm around the chicken > coop because > something is killing the chickens. If I am remembering correctly and not > mixing > sources up, then this indicates that Hagrid can, with permission, to magic. I never doubted whether or not Hagrid could perform magic nor the fact that he has been doing magic. I was just confused as to why Hagrid would say in OOP that he wasn't allowed to do magic, when at the end of CoS he was cleared of any wrong doing. Posts from Steve and others have helped to clear up this matter. In an interview, JKR said that Hagrid was cleared and is indeed allowed to do magic. As I said earlier, I thought that Hagrid's statement in OOP was an oversight on the part of the author. > > Donna says: > > My thinking about Harry being credited for the Hover charm and not Dobby > is because Harry is the only one on Privet Dr. with magical abilities and > the WW seems to feel that house elves do not leave their master's place > unless told to do so thus, there was no reason to suspect anyone but Harry > for performing the charm. smilingator: I understand that MoM has probably been keeping a close watch on Harry while he was at Privet Drive. And they do know that Harry has been the only person in the Dursley household who has shown magical ability up until that point. The fact that the MoM assumed that Harry performed the charm is what threw me. Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but I thought that was a huge one, seeing as how the Ministry was warning Harry of expulsion. I would think that they would want to make sure they were sending the letter to the correct individual. We all know what assuming does... As someone has explained to me (sorry, I can't remember who it was!), this part of the story definitely shows early on that the MoM has some problems and they do not always get everything right. So, even in the WW, there is error. Hope I've made myself more clear. Just my thoughts... From shelbyleigh at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 04:51:28 2005 From: shelbyleigh at gmail.com (ShelbyLeigh) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:51:28 -0400 Subject: Lurkers view on HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c58378$b45d1340$6601a8c0@BeachHouse> No: HPFGUIDX 132253 I have been listening to all of the books over again. I find JK's loop a bit hard to follow sometimes but I have attempted to use them is my predictions of book 6. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley or McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Someone we do not know possible Felix 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) a) That she was working on a way to bind a persons magic b) She dated Remus first. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna or Susan 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is not a pensive. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8.5 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Voldemort knows about the DA members and sets out to punish them or gain control of them and their families. 2. Arthur is going become undersecretary to the Minister. 3. Umbridge, fudge and the captured death eaters will go to trail. 4. Goblins or house elfs will guard Azkaban. 5. Neville is going to get praise from his gran and she will admit to him that she has attempted to keep him down because she wanted him safe. Extra thoughts on book The Harry, Ron and Hermione group is going to get bigger. Ginny is going to join the group and bring Dean with her if they continue to date. Susan will join the group by taking up with Neville or Harry when she moves into headquarters. Luna will also be come part of the group. Harry will discover that his parent had a home other than the home in Godric Hollow. They moved more than once running from Voldemort. ShelbyLeigh From siskiou at vcem.com Fri Jul 8 07:29:57 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:29:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1692864312.20050708002957@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132254 Hi, Thursday, July 7, 2005, 8:44:15 PM, marshman1570 wrote: > Ron > seems at times to be quite the scaredy-cat, not exactly > the definition of Gryffindor brave > (think spiders...). Are we talking movie here, or book canon? ;) And being brave doesn't mean having no fear but overcoming your fear and do what needs doing, which Ron does just fine in the books. Spiders are a phobia for him because his brother (Fred, I think) turned his teddy bear into a spider when he was young (three, IIRC). Anyhow, I think it would be really hard to find any person with no other traits beside the main one for a certain house. Wasn't there something about the hat taking into account what traits the student values most? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From jcf at ieee.org Fri Jul 8 06:10:36 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:10:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's got Voldy's soul - Ginny does... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132255 On 7/7/05, phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I think since CoS Ginny has been hosting a piece of Voldemorts spirit. > the diary ghost specifically says that he poured part of himself in > her, iirc, and I think that part was left behind when the rest of the > diary was destroyed. Rowling said that Voldemort would have been more > powerful had the diary not been destroyed and I take that to mean he > was ultimately going to meld with the diary spirit to 'complete' > himself. I think that Voldemort is going to realize that Ginny has a > piece of himself still in her and I think that pretty soon he is going > to go after it... Does Here-and-Now!Voldy even know that Diary!Voldy possessed Ginny? I sort of assumed that the diary was just a copy of Riddle's memories mated to a mess of spells-- that there was no connection to the real Tom. (But if that's true, and Diary!Voldy had succeeded, would we have two competing Dark Lords?) Is there any canon one way or the other? -John From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 8 09:03:59 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:03:59 -0000 Subject: Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: <20050707233644.48109.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132256 I hadn't even considered Lupin. Good Canon for his involvement as well. Although I cannot think of a logical reason why he would have been at Godric's Hollow and survived. I don't agree with the ESE theory. Lupin appears (even from the evidence of his days at Hogwarts) to possess the utmost honour and integrity. So if he knows, I think it is his involvement in the Order that has given him this knowledge. More questions? Does everyone in the order know? If so, why is it so important to not let Harry know the whole truth? And i'll ask the question again - why didn't DD let Harry hear the whole prophecy? Brothergib (my other theory involved the time-turner - but if 3 clicks takes you back a few hours, how many do you need to go back 18 years??) From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 09:54:22 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:54:22 -0000 Subject: *spoiler* Scholastic Back Cover *spoiler* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132257 S P O I L E R S P A C E > KathyO?: > Haven't you gone to the Scholastic site - there's a ring that has a > broken stone, and the back cover shows the pensieve standing alone, > emitting the green light, but there's a row boat in a river in the > background and although it seems empty, there's a shining image in > the water - which shouldn't be there since the light is coming from > a different direction - and it appears that someone is in the boat, > only they can't be 'seen' by the human eye. There's also stuff > written on the wall behind the row boat, but it's unintelligible... > also if you look into the pensieve light (after enlarging it quite a > bit - you can almost see the face of....Sirius Black! JLV: I think you're describing the Bloomsbury Children's (UK) cover... unless the Scholastic cover has the same stuff on the back. I can't really see the cover in the linked photos... > Sara > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/hbp_coverpics.htm > > > > The Leaky Cauldron has teeny tiny pics of the Scholastic HBP full > > cover and you can clearly > > see Ron and Hermione looking up at a dark mark! So the question > > remains, what is that > > mark hanging over? Any speculation? JLV: Since I can't really see from the pictures on that link, are these the same figures as at the side of the HBP promotional stand in bookshops? I've heard some excellent speculations before regarding those, including suggestions that they aren't Ron and Hermione but James and Lily at Godric's Hollow. I really don't know what to think though! > > I personally think it may be the Burrow, but that's just because > I'm > > convinced a Weasley's > > gonna die. ;o) Ooh - I hope not but I fear that's a possibility... JLV xx From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 10:41:01 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:41:01 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "logic_alley" wrote: Logic Alley: > I have read writings by Lewis in which he stated that he did not > intend The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe to be a retelling of > biblical stories, but rather he was trying to tell a story which would > give children an understanding of what it would mean for someone to > give his life for them. > > He might have said other things elsewhere, but I didn't think it was a > well-documented fact, as you suggest. Geoff: One of my dictionaries defines "allegory" as: "A story, poem or picture which can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning" I think that we actually agree because this definition really fits what you are saying above. CSL was trying to tell a story to children to reach the aim mentioned. But, by the time he started publishing these books in 1950, he had been a Christian for almost twenty years, having made a profession of faith in September 1931. He was a well-known writer on Christian apologetics and already had a series of science-fiction books which presented the Christian faith - the second of which (Voyage to Venus) was very allegorical. If he wanted to influence children in the way you point out, it would be along the lines of Christianity and the first Narnia book certainly mirrors in story form the real events of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. My comment was based on the biographies of Lewis and Tolkien and the fact that there was some friction between the two because Lewis wrote his books so quickly - seven books, one a year (JKR please note!) and also Tolkien disliked allegory. He made it clear that LOTR was a story without connections to world events. I believe that the HP books are also in this category but that JKR does aim, like Lewis, to point readers in what she feels is the right direction which reflects her Christian background. From ash_silverfurn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 10:08:06 2005 From: ash_silverfurn at yahoo.com (Japie Maree) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:08:06 -0000 Subject: Advanced Potions - Re: Apparating - bboymin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132259 Advanced Potions: A while back the likelihood of Harry being admitted to Advanced Potion class came up. The general assumption was made that you need an O to get in, but I am rereading OOTP and an exact grade was never mentioned. It might be more reasonable to assume then that an E or higher is necessary to get into Potions. I have always imagined that an E is not out of reach for Harry but an O would be (He definitely does not like potions class). Apparating: My take on Apparating has always been that it is similar to Vanishing spells and thus it is more difficult to do than vanishing a rat. Compare the remarks about splinching and the bit about the wriggling rat's tail left over from Ron's attempt at vanishing it. The reason that you can Vanish/Apparate yourself is then that it is easier to form a complete picture in your mind of yourself than it is to do so for another person. Voldemort might be able to do it to a willing person but very few other people would be able too. I do agree with bboymin that doing it to a person that is not willing, especially a wizard would be looking for trouble. ash silverfurn - was a druid in an ad&d game and the name kinda stuck. From wyzdyx at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 09:11:46 2005 From: wyzdyx at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:11:46 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132260 KarentheUnicorn: < snip >> Also if Snape is Loyal to Voldemort why is Fake M > searching his office. Fake Moody he must realize he is not going to > get caught. Snape only comes out of bed because he heard the egg > wailing and the noise. Marci's reply: Fake Moody was in Snape's office to steal boomslang skin for polyjuice potion so he could continue to be Fake Moody. The search was a cover story only. < snip >> Was he this way before Fake took over, that is what I > really want to know. Marci again: According to DD, Real Moody was known to only drink from his own flask (and to be very paranoid) which allowed Fake Moody to drink polyjuice potion once an hour to maintain his disguise. < snip >> So, either that comment about Spots that don't come off is > a REAL sort of comment Moody might make to Snape, or either, its a > comment that is unusual, that would surprise Snape. Marci's comment: hindsight suggests that Crouch jr, an unrepentant DE, was saying something about his own "spots". < snip >> If auror's knew to look for Death Eaters, wouldn't they > know Snape was one, since, I though I remembered some talk of a > trial for Snape, so, more than a couple people were obviously aware > he was a death eater, even if it is not wider public knowledge. Marci's suggestion: Snape may have been a DE, but he has DD's trust. Harry saw in the pensieve that Snape was a "double agent" before LV's defeat and DD testified in his behalf. Also, as noted above, Fake Moody was not an auror; he was Barty Crouch jr, an unrepentant DE. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 13:18:32 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:18:32 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: <42CD88D8.2060403@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132261 Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley I always thought it had something to do with Lupin mentioning that someone he knew was afraid of Flesh Eating Slugs, and he'd seen a boggart take half the shape of one. Hagrid? *shrugs* JMO Chys From pipes814 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 12:19:59 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:19:59 -0000 Subject: Who's got Voldy's soul - Ginny does... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132262 John: > Does Here-and-Now!Voldy even know that Diary!Voldy possessed > Ginny? I sort of assumed that the diary was just a copy of Riddle's > memories mated to a mess of spells-- that there was no connection to > the real Tom. (But if that's true, and Diary!Voldy had succeeded, > would we have two competing Dark Lords?) > > Is there any canon one way or the other? If there's any significance to Ginny's possession, I'm sure Lucius Malfoy would inform LV. As to having two Dark Lords, phoenixgod2000 mentions JKR's quote that if Riddle had succeeded, "it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably"(JKRowling.com FAQ, thanks Madam Scoops). I'm sure since Ginny told Riddle what happened to his future self, he would have tracked him down and revived/merged with him somehow. Jamie From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 13:49:10 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:49:10 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- US back cover - no spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132263 Anything that you could make out by looking at the shiny, indistinct image of the US back cover is now off limits, whatever that is. This is on a case-by-case basis. Basically, if you don't merely describe the picture, you're fine. Link to spoilery cover: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/hbp_coverpics.htm TK -- TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 13:54:32 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:54:32 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 7 days left -- email entry to Tiger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132264 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to the newsgroup and to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com.* Deadline: Friday, July 15, 2005, at 12:00 pm (noon) EDT. Note that is *noon.* Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. Elements on the covers are now off limits. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or another superlative title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 8 13:54:59 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:54:59 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms/Trevor ... and souls (sequel to Basilisk/Voldemort-connection) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132265 Hi all, I don't know if there's still a little room for my papers on the message board, because I've been a long time without posting --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > Inge: > Having just posted a little something on how Trevor might come into > play as the toad, beneath which, the egg (including Voldemort's soul) > is hatched..... the above got me thinking that Trevor is the reason the > Longbottoms were tortured. > Voldemort's soul had gone - the LeStrange's somehow knew that Trevor > would be the toad they'd need. > Longbottoms didn't give away where to find Trevor - they were tortured > and ended up at St. Mungo's. > It was later given to Neville (sorry, I don't remember by who) and > Neville was told to never lose sight of the animal - which is why he's > very upset every time Trevor escapes him...... Now me: In PS/SS, chapter 7, when the new Gryffindor talk about their families, Neville tells them how he got Trevor: his Great- uncle Algie was so pleased when the boy showed magical abilities he bought him a toad. So we can assume that Trevor was not there the day the Lestranges attacked the Longbottoms, and that the toad wasn't the reason why they tortured Neville's parents. I don't know what happened with Voldemort's soul when he tried to kill Harry. I find the idea of a "recipient" (very poor word, I confess) protecting the soul rather interesting. But on another hand, I have an issue with the idea of souls travelling from a recipient to another (body, egg, box, animal or even golden snitch): it sounds like reincarnation, so is it compatible with the Christian references we can find in the series? I don't know whether the question is worth debating, but if it is, I'm waiting for your comments. Amicalement, and hoping our British members, their families and friends are all safe after what happened in London. Iris From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 8 14:20:53 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:20:53 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132266 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A Weasley. Albus Dumbledore will die too, if not physically, at least symbolically. By the end of the novel, Harry will become stronger than him. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. Harry will meet him through a mental time travel. The ring with the broken black stone / the stone wearing a bolt of lightning on the UK cover belongs to him. And Dumbledore could turn out to be his descendent. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was a descendent of Slytherin. She dated Remus Lupin. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character. But like Lockhart and the fake Moody, he will turn out to be an impostor. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Just before the story reaches its most critical point, Hermione will tell him she loves him, and he will feel very surprised because he didn't expect it. However, he won't end up with her. He will tell her to go with Ron. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? At the beginning, Fudge. Then he'll die or will be sacked, and Madam Bones will take the charge. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Something like a "universal Pensieve". It contains Hogwarts' or the Wizarding World's memories. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? First option: yes, but he will have so many problems with Snape that he will have to leave the class. Second option: No In both cases, Hermione will become his substitute teacher. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. Severus Snape is already stocking spare cauldrons. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? At least 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1.Potions will play a major part, and there will be a "poison affair". 2.Ron will be Quidditch captain. 3.Harry will nearly die or loose his soul. 4.Lucius Malfoy and the Lestranges will escape from Azkaban. 5.At the end of the book, Hagrid will have an important position at Hogwarts. Amicalement and just for fun, Iris From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 14:37:42 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:37:42 -0000 Subject: Where Voldemort soul is? Was: Re: Longbottoms/Trevor ... and souls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132267 Iris: > I don't know what happened with Voldemort's soul when he tried to > kill Harry. I find the idea of a "recipient" (very poor word, I > confess) protecting the soul rather interesting. But on another > hand, I have an issue with the idea of souls travelling from a > recipient to another (body, egg, box, animal or even golden snitch): > it sounds like reincarnation, so is it compatible with the Christian > references we can find in the series? > I don't know whether the question is worth debating, but if it is, > I'm waiting for your comments. Alla: Hey, Iris. I personally find the speculation of Voldemort hiding his soul somewhere to be quite plausible, sort of. I do not think that this would a reference to reincarnation per se, since usually in the fairy tales the vilain hides his soul in the object, not in the living being(although the object is often hidden in the animal). Can you reincarnate into an object? I am not sure, confessing my ignorance here. Somebody brought into discussion russian fairy tale "Firebird" earlier,which is a great example of how it is often done. Even if it would be the reference to reincarnation, I don't think it would conflict with cristian references, if one thinks that JKR is influenced by many traditions, not just one and I certainly share this POV. I think it would be interesting if at the end Harry figures out where Voldie soul is and instead of destroying it, lets it go free. Anyways, having said all that, I am not sure if Voldemort still has a soul at all, maybe it was already destroyed somehow. Just speculating here, Alla. From cubs9911 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 15:27:51 2005 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:27:51 -0000 Subject: Different POV in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132268 I was wondering, does anyone think that JKR will write from a different perspective in HBP. So far with only a few exeptions, she has basically written from Harry's perspective. But something that I saw on her website struck me. She said that she had thought about doing a scene at Malfoy Manor with Draco and Nott I believe talking about Harry. But she couldn't work it in so she eventually dropped it. I think that this shows that she is willing to write a scene where Harry isn't privy to the information but the reader is. I bring this up because we know that there is a chapter in HBP called Draco's Detour. My question is, do you think that Harry will be seeing what Draco is doing on his detour or will this be a chapter where we get to witness the goings on from a different angle. JR From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 8 15:37:27 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:37:27 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132269 --- "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Geoff: > > I think there are two angles to this question. One is JKR's real > world approach and the other is Harry's point of view. > > Jim Ferer wrote in message 132059: > > "Tania, we do kind of avoid getting on religion here aussie: In WW, the persicution of witches wasn't the work of Puritans, religious fanatics, Crusaders, or other expressions that would prejudice readers against Christianity. JKR introduced the concept of Muggles very early in her works to avoid religious discrimination. >From a Canon point of view, it muggles are non-magical people infering that there are magical Christians, Jews, Budhists, Zorastrians, etc. But if you want to introduce something that may cause a dividing reaction between readers ... what soccer team did Harry follow before he the Owl posts visited him in Privot Drive? - just kidding aussie From dbonett at adelphia.net Fri Jul 8 14:34:56 2005 From: dbonett at adelphia.net (dtbonett) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:34:56 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In JKR's words? / +ADMIN NOTE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132270 Geoff: > The Wizarding World, like the others mentioned, is not overtly > Christian but, as Jim says, what keeps the story on track is the > core theme of love. This is not unique to our faith but the > two "great commandments" as emphasised by Christ are the driving > force behind the actions of Christian believers. > > If I may pick up on one small point, Lewis was /not/ a Catholic. Dorothy: I also agree with both of you. The theme of sacrificial love is very strong in all the Potter books. I look forward to seeing how it will play out in the next one. I do really enjoy the books for this reason ; books that promote these kinds of values--sacrifice, heroism, loyalty to friends, love for family-- seem to me to be becoming rare. But, picking up on the point about C.S. Lewis' religion--he was neither a Catholic nor an evangelical Protestant. He was Church of England (Anglican), which is a form of Protestant. It is true that he has been very embraced by evangelicals, of whom I am one--and also by Catholics. I think what he was trying to present in many books (not just the Narnia ones) was what he called "Mere Christianity" (title of one of his books which is very interesting)--the core of the Christian faith that devout believers in Christ, no matter what their denomination, have in common. He was obviously successful in that, (and successful in reaching non-Christians too)since he remains such a hugely popular and best-selling author, more than 50 years after his death. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling were to last as well: academic critics may trash her (as they did Lewis, and as they definitely continue to trash Tolkien) but I think she will outlast them, not only because the values are satisfying, but boy, can she tell a story and suck you into the characters, which I think counts more than literary theories and fashionable cynicism. logic_alley wrote: > It's interesting that there aren't any non-Christian/Muggle > holidays in the books They ought to have special Wizard > holidays because almost every population develops it's own > holidays, and they probably shouldn't celebrate Christmas and > Easter. Dorothy: They do make a very big thing out of Halloween. I think Rowling did the right thing to leave Christmas and Easter in; I always get tired in books where everything is completely new, nothing familiar; don't like much straight science fiction for this reason. Rowling does a great job of building a parallel world which is still tied to the 'normal' one and not completely different. Leaving in familiar holidays helps with that; mentioning Christmas and Easter also helps with a feeling of the time passing and the seasons. Tolkien is the exception, an author I like to read even though he invented everything new. But do you know, although he didn't mention it explicity in the book, his calendar for LOTR was tied to the church year--for instance, from what I remember, the day that Frodo throws the ring into Mount Doom is Good Friday. dorothy ADMIN NOTE: The elves have noted that some of the posts in this thread are beginning to veer OT. We would like to remind posters that every post to HPfGU needs to discuss the *canon works of JK Rowling.* If you are contemplating a post which discusses only personal views on religion or information about J.R.R.Tolkien, for instance, then you should either bring the discussion back around to its relationship to canon, or you should post your thoughts at our sister list, Off-Topic Chatter [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ ]. Many thanks! Shorty Elf, for the HPfGU Admin Team From anurim at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 16:09:50 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New (?) theory on Petunia (was: Hagrid and Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050708160950.7172.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132271 --- smilingator4915 wrote: > I understand that MoM has probably been keeping a > close watch on > Harry while he was at Privet Drive. And they do know > that Harry has > been the only person in the Dursley household who > has shown magical > ability up until that point. The fact that the MoM > assumed that > Harry performed the charm is what threw me. Yes, > everyone makes > mistakes, but I thought that was a huge one, seeing > as how the > Ministry was warning Harry of expulsion. I would > think that they > would want to make sure they were sending the letter > to the correct > individual. We all know what assuming does... > As someone has explained to me (sorry, I can't > remember who it > was!), this part of the story definitely shows early > on that the MoM > has some problems and they do not always get > everything right. So, > even in the WW, there is error. You gave me an idea, sorry if it has been discussed before, I haven't seen it yet anywhere. Jo says that Lily had quite often tested the limits of the Status of Secrecy... what if she had done magic during holidays, but blamed it on Petunia? This way Petunia, slower to defend herself, or proud that she was believed able to do the advanced magic Lily was doing, or fond of her sister, or afraid of Hogwarts, was thrown out of the wizarding world, perhaps even threatened with Azkaban, and started hating Lily with passion... No, I don't really believe it is true, because Jo told us Petunia is not a witch, which seems to mean she was never registered with the MoM, but seems fun to predict anyway. Mira ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From anurim at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 16:29:18 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPS: Jumping on the Bandwagon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050708162918.6067.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132272 Let me start by saying that I have joined the fandom discussions only last December; before this time, I always took it as a matter of fact that Hermione likes Harry. I do see the point in some arguments of the R/H shippers, but when I refer back to the books, I still find it natural to interpret them as I did at first. But I am not a passionate shipper, one way or another. And now to some specific answers to your objections: --- heather the buzzard wrote: > Meh. I first, second, and only saw that as Hermione > getting an idea and > shouting out at that moment. I also think she's > over-acting it for > Umbridge's sake, so the 'cracked voice' and the > whole exaggerated panic > over Harry is just part of the act. > > And so Ginny is staring at her, like the others, > because she knows her > quite while and would NOT have expected this > behavious from her. But it > is this precisely -- her behaving VERY > out-of-character -- that is the > 'hint' to the others that she's up to something. If this was the case then I would somehow expect Ginny to catch on with Hermione's play much earlier. But the way her reaction is described, I get the impression that in fact Hermione is acting desperately to buy time, while Ginny seems to get an idea... > Well, I tend to think sort of the opposite. I think > she treats Harry > like a brother -- but not a younger, > teased-and-tormented brother. More > like the comfortable twin. It could be true. On the other hand, Hermione doesn't have brothers, or, as far as we know, other male friends, and she didn't have more time to know Harry than Ron. Why would she have feelings for the weakest and most problematic of her friends, and not for the one with whom she seems to feel more comfortable, the one whom she perceives as her equal, as somebody whom she can trust, as somebody fully formed already, in no need for alterations? I don't know. If she had tendencies to mother Ron, why would she not choose Neville instead? > Ron, on the other hand, she gets more frustrated > with, more emotional > about. If Harry goofs off, she rolls her eyes. If > Ron goofs off, she > throws a fit. So she accepts Harry more than she accepts Ron. Harry has more authority over her than Ron. She is a rational girl, comfortable enough with herself, in no particular need for drama. Why would she choose Ron, then? And if she did, why wouldn't she try to treat him more seriously, more respectfully, more productively perhaps? She is not shy with Ron. This would be a sure sign that she has feelings for him, but no, she is bossy and impatient. She enjoys making an impression on Harry (GoF), she is elated when Harry proves worthy (CoS: You solved it! You solved it by yourself!), she protects Harry's feelings (everywhere), she worships Harry (PS, GoF, Triwizard Tournament, Quiddich matches even...), while Ron, she generally brushes aside, or falls back on when Harry doesn't have time for her (OotP). Of course, she might end up with Ron, at least for a while, and if she does I am sure she will love him and be completely devoted to him, but I would still say Ron is not Hermione's first choice. --- phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I find it fascinating that so many people can read > the same books > and get so many different things out of them. Ditto :-) > You think that Hermione treats Harry more like a > man? More like an adult and equal, I think. > Would that be > the part she harps on him to do his homework like a > frustrated > mother? Not worse than she does on Ron. Actually, IIRC she expects from Ron to be lazy, but seems to get almost personally hurt when Harry shows the same lack of responsibility (PoA, I think). > Or the part where she agrees with his HoH > when it comes to > punishments or goes behind his back when it comes to > mysterious > packages? She is fair more than she is biased, but she never seems happy when Harry is punished, and it takes a lot of heroism for her to do what she thinks is right about the Firebolt, and risk losing Harry's friendship in the process. IIRC. > Maybe the part where she talks to him > about the girl he > likes as if he was a dull witted five year old? She doesn't, she takes the time to spell out for him what he did wrong. Not many girls do that, I think, even for their best friends. I actually think she was very selfless to do it. > Now she and Ron on the other hand act like equals. To this I don't agree. At most, I think, Hermione sees Ron as equal with her unconfident ego. Indeed, the only reason why she might choose Ron is, for me, the fact that she is to insecure (or to realistic) to imagine Harry might fancy her. But even then, she has the Viktor alternative. She probably doesn't rationalize it, she loves both boys for what they are and doesn't judge them as such. It is all in the behavior, not in the intention. I don't think Ron and Hermione's relationship would be 'interesting' long-term. I think it would be exhausting and leave both of them with quite a bitter aftertaste and a lot of adjusting and catching up to do with their lives. But this is just me. I am probably wrong. I do like all of them, I like them very much. > One thing I will say in agreement is that I think > Hermione respects > Harry more than she does Ron This is probably what I meant to say, just better put:-) --- Ehren wrote: > Ehren: IMO I am not convinced that there is a love > triangle > developing between the trio. I used to believe she does. I don't anymore, though. There is not enough time for it, and perhaps not the right place either. Perhaps the trio will stay friends and nothing more, this is what I think I would prefer for them, but it doesn't mean that the tendencies are not there. > I also think the whole scene where Umbridge is > threatening to Crucio > Harry is simply Hermione reacting because she can't > stand to see > anyone tortured. I believe she would have made up > the story whether > it was Harry, Ron, Neville or Ginny about to be > cursed. It could be. But I am not sure she would have reacted the same in all cases. I hope she would:) > Ehren: > > I don't think Ginny will spill the beans because she > seems to respect > her friendship with Hermione and keep her secrets, > as she didn't tell > the boys who Hermione was going with to the ball > because it wasn't > her place to tell. Sometimes things need to be said. I'll trust Ginny on this:) Mira ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 16:31:33 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:31:33 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132273 This is the link: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) --Toni From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 8 16:41:13 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:41:13 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132274 --- "Ehren" wrote: > > "We had to go slow, 'cause I'm not really s'posed ter use magic..." > OoP pg 377 (US Paperback) > aussie: PS/SS Chap 5 when Hagrid picked up Harry from the Dursleys:- "How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around for another boat. "Flew," said Hagrid. "Flew?" "Yeah -- but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter use magic now I've got yeh." then at the end of the chapter 5:- The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone. How did Hagrid get around then? ... Not apparating given his magical inability (3rd Year training). I suggest an old flying carpet, maybe with an invisibility cloak or other manner to disappear from view (as owners of large magical creatures have to know). Cannon about flying carpets:- GOF Chap 7 Mr. Crouch, ... "Ali Bashir's on the warpath. He wants a word with you about your embargo on flying carpets." Mr. Weasley heaved a deep sigh. "I sent him an owl about that just last week. If I've told him once I've told him a hundred times: Carpets are defined as a Muggle Artifact by the Registry of Proscribed Charmable Objects, but will he listen?" "I doubt it," said Mr. Crouch, accepting a cup from Percy. "He's desperate to export here." "Well, they'll never replace brooms in Britain, will they?" said Bagman. "Ali thinks there's a niche in the market for a family vehicle, said Mr. Crouch. "I remember my grandfather had an Axminster that could seat twelve - but that was before carpets were banned, of course." So they were in Britain before (maybe when Hagrid was younger), but the embargo was Arthur Weasley's responsibility, so relatively recent. Hagrid may have wanted to give Mme Maxime a ride on his carpet, but she didn't want to draw attention to themselves on "Muggle Artifacts" that have legal restriction around parts of Europe. DD may know Hagrid uses it to move around, but Hagrid wouldn't want it too common kowledge. aussie From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:01:31 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:01:31 -0000 Subject: Who will tell Harry what happened? (WAS:Re: Question1 - Godrics Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132275 > Inge: > But Im still sure Lupin is going to be the one who will tell Harry the > true story about that night in GH. Lupin's not a bad choice, but he almost certainly was not there. But there was a Marauder who probably had a front-row seat. After all, how is it that Peter had Voldemort's wand, unless he was there that night? Harry might have to use Veritaserum and/or a Pensieve to get it, but Wormtail is probably the only person who can give Harry an eyewitness account. Amiable Dorsai From phil at pcsgames.net Fri Jul 8 17:25:45 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:25:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest References: Message-ID: <11e101c583e2$1b3c2060$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 132276 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Nymphadora Tonks, see below. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Trevor the toad, who is finally kissed and turns into a prince. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily used a Switching Spell to transplant her own eyes onto baby Harry. Just as giving a part of themselves to a portrait to make it come alive, she did the same to her eyes so that she could watch over harry even if she was gone, and speak as a small voice in his head. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Nymphadora Tonks, who will be doomed when she disguises herself as someone else. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In book seven it will be Ginny, but in book 6 Harry has a crush on Tonks when she keeps turning her hair tomato-red and waist length looking like Ginny's older sister. " 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy Weasley, making the song, WEASLEY IS OUR KING come true. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensive from the old potter home at godrics hollow and contains lily's memories. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course, look at the cover of the next book! ;-) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, to develop a potion that cures his parents. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA, Charms, Transfiguration, CoMC, Herbology, Potions, Astronomy and Divination, total 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. " 1. We will find out that Dobby was the Potter's House Elf until his parents died. And ever since Harry came to live on Privet Drive Dobby has apparated there at night to help Aunt Petunia with the housework. 2. Fred and George will buy the shrieking shack and turn it into a joke shop. They will hire Peeves to press the knot on the weeping willow when a customer wants to visit them through the tunnel. 3. Madam Edgecombe, Marietta's mother will fail Hermione in her Apparation test. 4. Bill Weasley will marry Fleur Delacour, early in the Summer Holidays, and get Grimmauld Place as a wedding present from Harry. 5. Harry will find a few things in Grimmauld Place, including Sirius' two-way mirror, then repair his own so he can use it . 6. Hagrid will give Harry the old flying motorcycle for Christmas. The one he used to get to France in the last book. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 16:48:28 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:48:28 -0000 Subject: HBP's back cover, and what Voldemort was trying to achieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind > Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! > > Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) > I agree, but I just realized how the movies have made me imagine Ron to look like the actor Rupert, so at first I thought it looked more like Harry without glasses... but it's probably Ron. In GoF it says that the DEs conjured the Dark Mark when they killed someone... so they are going to kill someone AT Hogwarts? Could it be? Hmmm... not Dumbledore!! (I personally think that Dumbledore will die, but not till book 7. We will see though.) Do we know what Voldemort's ultimate objective was? What was he hoping to accomplish by gathering supporters and killing those who wanted to stop him? If power... to do what? Over what? Death? Why did he need followers to defeat death? It seems like he was able to make himself immortal with his own experiment. So was he really just trying to be the ruler of evil pure-blood wizards because he hated Muggles and half-bloods? I wonder how much of that will come out in the next two books. Though we have some ideas (he hated Muggles, wanted power and immortality) I'm not sure if we have a true understanding of his ultimate goals. - davenclaw From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:32:24 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:32:24 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- US back cover - no spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132278 No spoilers in this post. >From this point forward, any prediction that merely describes the back cover recently posted on Mugglenet is invalid, including merely a surmise of the identity of the building in the blurry background. Interpretations of the image, such as who is referred to, are still fair game. (You'll know what I mean if you see the back cover.) TK -- TigerPatronus From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:33:59 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:33:59 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) Karen>> I've deleted the chevrons from the above to preserve the spoiler warning. I thought exactly the same that it's Ron, Hermiome, Ginny and A.N. Other watching the Dark Mark hover over Hogwarts and my immediate reaction is "OMG where is Harry"? I do not for one moment imagine that JKR is going to kill Harry off in book 6 so why isn't he there? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:11:40 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:11:40 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald (was Re: MAJOR ... ALCHEMIST THEORY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132280 aussie writes: > At last someone talks of Grindelwald (called "DWG" for Dark Wizard > Grindelwald in the rest of this post). zgirnius speculates: I've always been struck by the obviously German-sounding name of Grindelwald. 1945 was also the end of the Second World War in Muggleland. Possibly just an indication that the WW was also involved in that conflict? From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:26:04 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:26:04 -0000 Subject: Is McGonnagall evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132281 In the database of recommended posts pre-OotP, I saw a very interesting thread that put forth the theory that McG, not Snape, is really the evil one, and went through various scenes throughout the books to offer interpretations of her behavior that might hint at this. (An example that I just read a little while ago is that when Harry's name comes out of the Goblet, McG is very defensive of him when he is accused of cheating to get his name in there. The typical interpretation is that she is just defending Harry against an unfair accusation. The alternate theory is that she wants to make sure he competes in the competition, like Crouch Jr. does.) I was just wondering if there had been much discussion of this theory AFTER OotP?? Does anyone still think that she might actually be a spy? - davenclaw From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:18:52 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:18:52 -0000 Subject: Relationships Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132282 I've never been much of a "shipper," but I'll throw in my two cents. I think that JKR will keep things relatively straightforward and simple. We can interpret what we want from the interactions of the characters, and come up with all kinds of theories about who Hermione likes or respects more, etc. But I think that if you want to know what's really going to happen, consider that JKR is making this aspect of the story accessible to young teens. Consider Cho... we knew for awhile that Harry had a thing for Cho. JKR made this obvious. In GoF we have a very obvious message that Ron and Hermione like each other: He is angry that she is going to the ball with Krum, and she is mad at him for not noticing her already. I was actually really surprised that this wasn't developed further in OotP, but we can see with some comments that Hermione makes to Harry about his and Ron's thickness at understanding girls, that she continues to be exasperated by Ron's emotional immaturity. As their characters currently stand, I see a relationship between Ron and Hermione as a huge mistake - at this point, she is just too bossy, nitpicky, and critical. In a relationship, they would either fight all the time like they do now, or Ron would become subservient to Hermione. She's really too much like his mother for their relationship to work well - at THIS point. But I can see their characters developing in a way that this could change, beginning with the self-confidence that Ron will build as a successful Quidditch player, and by not having to deal with older brothers at Hogwarts anymore. Hermione may start treating him with more respect. What's more, she may become less of an over-expectant nag, loosen up herself, and learn to accept Ron for who he is. I see any relationship between them starting slowly... I can foresee some sort of party/dance/ball and Harry asking who Ron plans to take, and he sort of embarrassingly says he is taking Hermione... things start off awkwardly and probably end in an argument that evening, but eventually they make up and have more mature interactions. As for Harry, the hints about Ginny are obvious, and I think something will happen there eventually - I just don't know if it will last. And, I think there may be a different love interest in the meantime. I think Luna may reveal a crush on someone (I think Ron) but get over it and either be a non-romantic character or have an unimportant (story-wise) relationship with some minor character, like Colin Creevey. I don't think she will play a major role in the romantic lives of our main characters. - davenclaw From yutu75es at yahoo.es Fri Jul 8 17:44:07 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:44:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP References: Message-ID: <006f01c583e4$a55b8db0$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 132283 This is the link http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E > > TONI wrote: > It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind > Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! > > Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) > Me (Fridwulfa): Well, it certainly looks like the dark mark over Hogwarts, though I don't think it's Cho behind Ron, I think it's Dean Thomas, and it seems as if there are more pupils behind Hermione and Ginny, I can see their shadows. This is not good. And what about this greenish mist that surrounds them??? Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From brossiter at dc.rr.com Fri Jul 8 17:40:34 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (brossiter at dc.rr.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:40:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New (?) theory on Petunia (was: Hagrid and Magic) Message-ID: <4b4a284b5f06.4b5f064b4a28@socal.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132284 Mira wrote: > > << snip >> Jo says that > Lily had quite often tested the limits of the Status > of Secrecy... what if she had done magic during > holidays, but blamed it on Petunia? This way Petunia, > slower to defend herself, or proud that she was > believed able to do the advanced magic Lily was doing, > or fond of her sister, or afraid of Hogwarts, was > thrown out of the wizarding world, perhaps even > threatened with Azkaban, and started hating Lily with > passion... << snip >> brossiter responds: That gives ME an idea. Petunia's rage in PS/SS is an obvious fit of jealousy, targeted at the Evans' parents apparently favourable reaction to Lily's magical capabilities. She might also have been jealous of Lily's friends (including "that boy" from whom she learned of Azkaban). Perhaps Petunia, in reaction to her parents' favouring of Lily, and in envy of the capabilities of her "dratted" sister, had been secretly trying out magic on her own, but (for the most part) failed? Perhaps Petunia was even taking Kwikspell courses, and may be even doing so to this day. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:36:02 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:36:02 -0000 Subject: God in the WW? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132285 logic alley wrote: > I think the basic structure of the books is just so tied to the > British school structure, and Christmas and Easter are major > elements in the school calendar, that she put them in. > > It's interesting that there aren't any non-Christian/Muggle > holidays in the books. > I think personally that it's just an area JKR left out. They ought > to have special Wizard holidays because almost every population > develops it's own holidays, and they probably shouldn't celebrate > Christmas and Easter. zgirnius wonders: I'm pretty new to this list, so maybe this has been discussed previously? But do we have any idea what proportion of people in the WW are pureblood? Mixed blood? Muggleborn? It seems to me this would definitely affect religious practice...while purebloods have themselves been separated from the Muggle world for long enough to abandon whatever religion their ancestors may have practiced way back then, Muggleborns, raised by their Muggle parents, would presumably often retain some connection to the rituals and/or beliefs of their childhood. Particularly if their relationships with their Muggle families were strong. Similarly for mixed-blood wizards/witches. This might have been part of JKR's thinking in including major holidays like Christmas and Easter (and the other religion-connected elements referred to elsewhere in this thread-monks, St. Mungo, etc.) From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 18:07:24 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: <004b01c57f06$6a372f60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20050708180725.24232.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132286 > As we're all aware, HBP comes out two weeks today. > One disadvantage I have > as a blind person is that I won't get to listen to > the book until 25th > August, which is when the UK audio version comes > out. By this time, > discussions will have started within this and other > groups, thereby spoiling > > it for me before I get the chance to read it. Does > anyone know of any > websites, please, where I can read the book when it > comes out - only read > it, not downloading? > > Derek Derek- According to mugglenet.com, there is a braille version that will be available at the same time as the regular version. The news article link (from mugglenet): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4642329.stm Hope that helps. bamf Me t wyrd gewf ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From allthingshp at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 17:50:28 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:50:28 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132287 tonihollifield wrote: http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! Karen: > Other watching the Dark Mark hover over Hogwarts and my immediate > reaction is "OMG where is Harry"? I do not for one moment imagine > that JKR is going to kill Harry off in book 6 so why isn't he there? I think Harry is around the corner on the front of the book...not in absent on purpose or anything. Also I was thinking that the fourth person we see behind "Ron" is maybe Dean...not Cho. allthingshp From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 18:04:02 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:04:02 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132288 davenclaw wrote: > I've never been much of a "shipper," but I'll throw in my two cents. > > I think that JKR will keep things relatively straightforward and > simple. We can interpret what we want from the interactions of the I agree with all your analysis davenclaw. Any storyline other than a "simple" extension of what has been heavily hinted before - R/H and H/G, would require a great deal of development. With only two books left (and one of these shorter than OOP) and with the war to conclude, Voldemort to defeat and a myriad questions/puzzles to be resolved, it is highly unlikely that JKK would spend the time necessary to, for example, develop and then resolve a romantic triangle among the trio. Further, R/H is even more definitively foreshadowed in the moooovies, and although I know the cry "they just do whatever they want in those, nothing to do with canon", I do not for a moment believe that JKK would have permitted the storyline to become so committed to R/H if she knows that this would have to be reversed in the remainder of the series. Finally, and to me most convincingly, I do not believe romance will be a major focus of the remaining two books - at most a "light" sidestory. If that is the case, only the already set up ships R/H and H/G would be able to be played this way -- any other alternative would require complexity, exposition and/or unexpected revelations. Rolshan From pipes814 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 18:14:57 2005 From: pipes814 at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:14:57 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132289 Toni wrote: > > This is the link: > > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Karen wrote: > . I thought exactly the same that it's Ron, > Hermiome, Ginny and A.N. Other watching the Dark Mark hover over > Hogwarts and my immediate reaction is "OMG where is Harry"? I do > not for one moment imagine that JKR is going to kill Harry off in > book 6 so why isn't he there? Mary Grandpre's illustrations so far have been one picture covering the front and back of the book. We've already seen the front of this one is Harry and DD looking over the "pensieve". So, while the others are staring at the dark mark, Harry is somewhere with Dumbledore? Jamie From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 19:08:13 2005 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:08:13 -0000 Subject: Leaky Caulrons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132290 A week or so ago someone posted about Hagrid introducing The Leaky Cauldron to Harry as a famous place. I am currently rereading Goblet of Fire and I noticed a couple references to leaky cauldrons that I thought were interesting. The first was Percy's cauldron bottom report for the ministry. He's writing about how bottoms of international products have become too thin. Ooh, and looking it up to give you guys exact wording I noticed something else, too! Another of Ron's potentially fortune telling jokes. So here's what it says... Harry asks Percy what he's working on: "A report for the Department of International Magical Cooperation," said Percy smugly. "We're trying to standardize cauldron thickness. Some of these foreign imports are just a shade too thin-- - leakages have been increasing at a rate of almost three percent a year---" "That'll change the world, that will," said Ron. "Front page of the Daily Prophet, I expect, cauldron leaks." Percy went slightly pink. "You might sneer, Ron" he said heatedly, "but unless some sort of international law is imposed we might well find the market flooded with flimsy, shallow-bottomed products that seriously endanger---" "Yeah, yeah, all right," said Ron... (pg 56 of the American hardcover) I didn't think about this passage much until I got to the next one. At the camp site for the Quidditch World Cup, Ludo Bagman and Arthur Weasley are talking about Bertha Jorkins' disappearance. Ludo tells Arthur: "...she'll turn up. Poor old Bertha... memory like a leaky cauldron and no sense of direction." (Pg 89 of the American hardcover) When I read this part I thought back to Percy's report and then remembered the post about The Leaky Cauldron in London as a famous place. I'm not sure exactly what the connection might be but it seems that there's something going on here with cauldrons. Will a leaky cauldron somehow play a part in the story and make the front page of the Daily Prophet? Or was there a leaky cauldron involved the last time you-know-who had power? Is this maybe where the name for the pub came from? Are there any other references to leaky cauldrons? I'll definitely keep an eye out for them as I continue reading. What do you guys think? Janelle From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 19:16:38 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:16:38 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > I agree with all your analysis davenclaw. Any storyline other than > a "simple" extension of what has been heavily hinted before - R/H and > H/G, would require a great deal of development. I would take issue with the idea that H/G is heavily hinted at in the books. R/Hr yes, but not HG. There is no butterflys in Harry's stomach, no longing looks, no anything like what he had with cho. Other than a few (minor) literary conventions there is nothing to suggest that Harry and Ginny will end up together. > Finally, and to me most convincingly, I do not believe romance will > be a major focus of the remaining two books - at most a "light" > sidestory. If that is the case, only the already set up ships R/H > and H/G would be able to be played this way -- any other alternative > would require complexity, exposition and/or unexpected revelations. I don't think that romance will be a major part of the book either and I think that speaks against H/G more than speaks for it. Imagine the reprecussions in the Weasley family if Harry and Ginny started to date. Imagine the pages having to be ear marked for Harry to agonize over whether or not Molly is going to be happy for him. Or the talks with Ron, Bill, the Twins. Seems to me that would suck up far more time than a nice light romance with a more minor character. a romance we can watch unfold alongside Harry as he learns more about this girl on hogsmead weekends and the like. It didn't take Harry long to get a crush on Cho, why would it take any longer for another character? phoenixgod2000 From peckham at cyberramp.net Fri Jul 8 19:32:45 2005 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:32:45 -0000 Subject: HBP: US back cover, single scene or composite of several? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Looking back over Mary GrandPre's earlier Harry Potter covers shows that ever since POA the back cover illustrations of the US editions have been made from a composite of images from multiple scenes in the associated book. This leads to the natural question of whether the back cover of HBP is a composite of multiple scenes or a depiction of a single scene. If the back cover is from a single point in the book, then the common interpretation of a killing occurring at Hogwarts is quite reasonable. But what does it mean if the back cover images are pulled from multiple parts of the book? Allen From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 19:40:10 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:40:10 -0000 Subject: Is McGonnagall evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132293 > >>Davenclaw: > In the database of recommended posts pre-OotP, I saw a very > interesting thread that put forth the theory that McG, not Snape, > is really the evil one... > > I was just wondering if there had been much discussion of this > theory AFTER OotP?? Does anyone still think that she might > actually be a spy? Betsy Hp: I haven't seen *tons* of discussion along those lines. (Though I only joined this group back in December or there abouts, so take that for what it's worth.) However, Alla posted some of Elkin's original post on that theory not too long ago, and there was a spattering of discussion. My thoughts are here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129183 I think it's a fascinating idea and, though there isn't any definitive proof, there's enough to keep the theory alive, IMO. Starting at this post here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131862 there's a bit of discussion about McGonagall's punishments and their cruelty level. Just for more to chew on. :) Betsy Hp From allthingshp at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 19:31:03 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:31:03 -0000 Subject: The Woes of Ron Weasley (long tirade...sorry!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132294 This is in part a response to a number of "ship" posts that I have been reading through today but not in itself about relationships that might develop in the books. I have gotten a sense that many of you out there are harboring secret and not so secret resentment towards Ron and wanted to give a quick defense of my favorite Weasley. There seems to be the development of a "Ron as boy, Harry as man" theme developing through many of the posts and I can't disagree with this take any more than I do. Why are so many quick to assume that Ron is so immature? Because he doesn't doesn't want to talk about Cho Chang's feelings? Because he doesn't want to spend quality chess time studying goblin rebellions? Who would!?! He is, I'll give you, immature over his feelings for Hermione but he is a teenage boy afterall. We should cut him some slack. I personally think he should get some credit for his feelings at least. Despite what the movies and our immaginations will have us believe, Hermione is not your average teenage boy's dream girl. The fact that Ron can develop real feelings for this plain Jane because of her personality (while Harry is too busy being tangled up in the mess that is Cho Chang's pretty face) should say something to his maturity level. And finally what has Ron Weasley ever done but be a loyal loving friend to Harry (who yells at him all throughout OoTP without reason) and get detention and cough up slugs for Hermione (who takes every opportunity to critize him)? We should all be so lucky to have Ron as our best friend or our potential boyfriend. Horray for Ron! -allthinghp From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 8 19:58:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:58:16 -0000 Subject: Different POV in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: JP: > I was wondering, does anyone think that JKR will write from a > different perspective in HBP. So far with only a few exeptions, she > has basically written from Harry's perspective. But something that I > saw on her website struck me. > I think that this shows that she is willing to write a scene > where Harry isn't privy to the information but the reader is. > I bring this up because we know that there is a chapter in HBP called > Draco's Detour. My question is, do you think that Harry will be > seeing what Draco is doing on his detour or will this be a chapter > where we get to witness the goings on from a different angle. Geoff: Don't forget that there is altready canon evidence for the story being written from a different point of view. Chapter 1 of PS and Chapter 1 of GOF certainly fit this requirement. From ekrbdg at msn.com Fri Jul 8 20:14:19 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:14:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132296 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E > Karen>> I've deleted the chevrons from the above to preserve the > spoiler warning. I thought exactly the same that it's Ron, > Hermiome, Ginny and A.N. Other watching the Dark Mark hover over > Hogwarts and my immediate reaction is "OMG where is Harry"? I do > not for one moment imagine that JKR is going to kill Harry off in > book 6 so why isn't he there? > > If you open the book up completely, then that scene would be next to the one of DD and Harry on the cover. It's one scene, part on the front and part on the back. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 From anurim at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 20:10:48 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Woes of Ron Weasley (long tirade...sorry!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050708201049.94207.qmail@web32606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132297 --- allthingshp wrote: > This is in part a response to a number of "ship" > posts that I have > been reading through today but not in itself about > relationships > that might develop in the books. I have gotten a > sense that many of > you out there are harboring secret and not so secret > resentment > towards Ron and wanted to give a quick defense of my > favorite > Weasley. There seems to be the development of a > "Ron as boy, Harry > as man" theme developing through many of the posts > and I can't > disagree with this take any more than I do. Why are > so many quick > to assume that Ron is so immature? Because he > doesn't doesn't want > to talk about Cho Chang's feelings? Because he > doesn't want to > spend quality chess time studying goblin rebellions? > Who would!?! > He is, I'll give you, immature over his feelings for > Hermione but he > is a teenage boy afterall. We should cut him some > slack. I > personally think he should get some credit for his > feelings at > least. Despite what the movies and our > immaginations will have us > believe, Hermione is not your average teenage boy's > dream girl. The > fact that Ron can develop real feelings for this > plain Jane because > of her personality (while Harry is too busy being > tangled up in the > mess that is Cho Chang's pretty face) should say > something to his > maturity level. And finally what has Ron Weasley > ever done but be a > loyal loving friend to Harry (who yells at him all > throughout OoTP > without reason) and get detention and cough up slugs > for Hermione > (who takes every opportunity to critize him)? We > should all be so > lucky to have Ron as our best friend or our > potential boyfriend. Since I seem to have started the 'Ron as a boy, Harry as a man' alleged nonsense, I hurry to say that I adore Ron. He is a lovely person, loyal, intelligent and fun to be around. He is a precious friend and whichever girl he'll end up with will be very lucky indeed and is probably in for a sheltered, happy life. I just think that Hermione has needs that Ron cannot fulfill. Even more biasedly, I simply read the character motivations as Hermione liking Harry. But I could be wrong. Hurray for the trio and for the good guys in general! Mira PS: Sorry to bring up sad things again, just wanted to say that I am mourning for all the lives lost or hurt yesterday in London, same as I have mourned one year ago for Madrid and for New York in 2001. I also want to register my hatred for war, violence and unfairness of any denomination, and my deep sadness for all their victims. Please forgive my naivety, but... if only we could all have more respect and sympathy for each other. If only. ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 20:05:03 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:05:03 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132298 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Professor McGonagall > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Gryffindor. We will learn more of the Hogwarts' founders' backstory, specifically details of the Gryffingor/Slytherin split, the original of the Chamber of Secrets, and why Gryffindor had a sword for someone to pull out of the Sorting Hat. Harry will have contact with Gryffindor through some magical artifact preserving aspects of Gryffindor's memories/personality (possibly the sword, or something like Riddle's diary, or the mirror of Erised.) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Not Revealed. If Lily has Big Secret, it is at the core of what happened in Godric's Hollow the day Harry acquired the scar, so it is DEFINITELY Book 7 material. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? "Mad-Eye" Moody (for real, this time!) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A new character. Someone with Magical Law Enforcement credentials who kept their head down during the whole Fudge vs. Dumbledore thing in OotP. They are probably related to someone in the cast of characters (who in the WW is not?) but this will not be an issue. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A cauldron > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Eight. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Personally I consider this one obvious, but it is not AUTOMATIC. Hermione Granger will get 12 OWLs. 2. Gryffindor will win the Quidditch Cup, Ginny and Ron will be team members. 3. Luna Lovegood's romantic interest in Ron will become more evident, to Ron's dismay. 4. We will learn more about the bubble-gum-wrapper collection Neville's mom has given him. (WHAT we will learn is beyond me, I'll leave that to JKR). 5. A romantic interest for little Grawpie will show up. zgirnius From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 20:25:14 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:25:14 -0000 Subject: Brooms and Wandless Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132299 My apologies if this has been hashed over in the past. (I tried to look it up under "brooms". Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha, the word appears in a majority of posts as far as I could tell!) Are the brooms WW folk use specially charmed/enchanted so they would fly? If so, could Muggles use them? (Perhaps they are excepted from the usual ban on enchanting Muggle artifacts for reasons of tradition?) If not, does this mean that in theory any old broom can be used by a witch/wizard to fly? Since we don't see people waving their wands to activate a broom, is this another example of wandless magic? (Along with Potions, LV's legilimency, and other examples?) What do people think? --zgirnius From BrwNeil at aol.com Fri Jul 8 20:42:42 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:42:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationships Message-ID: <89.2a81e024.30003f42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132300 In a message dated 7/8/2005 1:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, daveshardell at yahoo.com writes: >As for Harry, the hints about Ginny are obvious, and I think >something will happen there eventually - I just don't know if it >will last. And, I think there may be a different love interest in >the meantime. In SS was it obvious that Voldemort possessed Quirrell? In CoS was it obvious that Riddle possessed Ginny? In PoA was it obvious that Lupin was a werewolf and that Sirius Black was a good guy? In GoF was it obvious that Mad Eye was an impostor and that he was helping Harry? In OotP was it obvious why Harry was dreaming about The Department of Mysteries and that Sirius was going to die in that book? None of those things were obvious to me. I find it strange that a writer that keeps everything else so skillfully hidden would make relationships so obvious that we would most certainly see them. Do I ship? Most certainly I do. Am I confident that my ship will prevail? I most certainly am not. The one thing that I am concerned about is that we still won't have any answers to the shipping question at the end of book six and will go through this debate for another two or three years. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrwNeil at aol.com Fri Jul 8 21:12:26 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:12:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Relationships Message-ID: <203.53278d6.3000463a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132301 In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:24:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, rolshan2000 at yahoo.com writes: >Finally, and to me most convincingly, I do not believe romance will >be a major focus of the remaining two books - at most a "light" >sidestory. If that is the case, only the already set up ships R/H >and H/G would be able to be played this way -- any other alternative >would require complexity, exposition and/or unexpected revelations. >Rolshan I've said in a previous post that I have no idea who will end up with who. I disagree, however, that any alternatives would be complex to write. I'm no JKR, but following is an example of how easy it would be to change H/G and R/Hr to H/Hr and R/L. Not at all complex, done in six lines. "Ron, how do you feel about Hermione," Harry asked pointedly. "Feel? What do you mean feel?" Ron asked. "Next to you, she's my best friend." "Do your feelings go beyond friendship?" Harry asked. "You seem upset whenever she talks about Victor" Ron laughed. "At one time I did consider asking her out, but I was afraid it would damage our friendship. Now I realize that we have too many differences for it to ever work out. We'd be fighting all the time. Besides, I was thinking of asking Luna to the next Hogsmeade weekend. I know she acts weird sometimes, but I kind of fancy her. Harry hesitated briefly. "Then you wouldn't be upset if I asked Hermione out? I never realized how much she meant to me until I thought she had died in the Department of Mysteries." "Go for it mate. I think it would be great if the two of you became a couple." Ron gave his friend an encouraging slap on the back. I'm not saying this will happen or that I even what it to happen. I'm simply pointing out how easily JKR could change everything. Nothing is in cement until the last words of book seven. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 21:13:30 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:13:30 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > Anyone have any ideas about the thick mist that is surrounding everything on the back cover? Natural or magical? Related to the dark mark or not? (Used as a cover during a DE murder for example?) I can't recall anything in canon about the magical uses of fog or mist, but it would definitely be a handy ploy during a war. Inkling From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 21:40:45 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:40:45 -0000 Subject: Brooms and Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > ...edited... > > Are the brooms WW folk use specially charmed/enchanted so they would > fly? If so, could Muggles use them? (Perhaps they are excepted from > the usual ban on enchanting Muggle artifacts for reasons of > tradition?) If not, does this mean that in theory any old broom can > be used by a witch/wizard to fly? Since we don't see people waving > their wands to activate a broom, is this another example of wandless > magic? > ...edited > > What do people think? > > --zgirnius bboyminn; Flying Brooms are not ordinary brooms that have been enchanted to fly. They are special devices magically created specifically for flying; that much is a fact. They do not resemble anything that any modern muggle would regard as a broom or something functionally able to actually sweep; again by modern standards. To the average muggle, a flying broom would look more like an odd bundle of sticks, and they would be more likely to use it for fireplace kindling than to even remotely think of sweeping or flying. Because flying brooms are so far from modern sweeping brooms, I think they are given an exemption from the law barring the enchantment of muggle artifacts. A flying carpet looks exactly like a carpet, but as I said, to a modern muggle, a flying broom looks like a bundle of sticks. As to whether a muggle could get a flying broom to fly, I'm not sure. We have to ponder to what extent a flying brooms flying ability is self-contained, and to what extent it draws on the magic of the wizard doing the flying. Just a pure guess, but I think to some extent, it draws on the magic of the wizard doing the flying. The core nature of the object is enchanted into it, but the activation, motivation, and control of the flying broom must come from the wizard. Mostly, I just made that up, but it seems reasonable. steve/bboyminn From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 22:45:05 2005 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (oz_widgeon) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 22:45:05 -0000 Subject: Brooms and Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: whether a muggle could get a flying broom to fly, I'm not sure. > We have to ponder to what extent a flying brooms flying ability is > self-contained, and to what extent it draws on the magic of the wizard > doing the flying. > > Just a pure guess, but I think to some extent, it draws on the magic > of the wizard doing the flying. The core nature of the object is > enchanted into it, but the activation, motivation, and control of the > flying broom must come from the wizard. > > Mostly, I just made that up, but it seems reasonable. > > steve/bboyminn Even though you made it up, it does sound very reasonable. Remember when they were first introduced to brooms in SS, Hermione couldn't get her broom to cooperate and many others had problems too. While the brooms are specifically made to be flown, I do think the witch or wizard flying it has a lot to do with the magic inside the broom, which is why some fly better than others. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 23:01:38 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:01:38 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132305 rolshan2000 wrote: > > Am rereading all the books in preparation for HBP. One seemingly > > unexplained occurrence is Hagrid's presence in Knockturn Alley in > > COS (when Harry ends up there by mistake after using Floo > > powder from the Weasleys). I do not for a moment believe in > > ESE Hagrid, but it is clearly indicated in the book that his > > explanation of looking for slug repellent appears false. > > > > Pippin: > An explanation is implied when Ron starts puking giant slugs near > Hagrid's prize pumpkins. He really was shopping for slug repellent > MO. Hagrid behaves a bit like a strait-laced politician > admitting a fling in a Vegas casino -- his reasons were honest, > just not respectable. > > Dungrollin: But what would flesh-eating slugs want with cabbages? Rather than "Flesh-eating slug repellant. They're ruining the school cabbages" it should surely read "Flesh-eating slug repellant. I've lost three toes this week!" From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 23:07:05 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:07:05 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonihollifield" wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! S P O I L E R S P A C E > > It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind > Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! > > Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) > > --Toni JLV here: Scholastic have put out a press release: http://www.scholastic.com/aboutscholastic/news/press_07082005_CP.htm Which reveals... M O R E S P O I L E R S P A C E "The back cover depicts Ron and Hermione as well as two other Hogwarts students looking at "the Dark Mark"." So it looks like it is Ron and Hermione, and it is at Hogwarts. Crikey - what on earth is going to happen? JLV xx (Who is thinking of those who were affected by Thursday's events and would like to thank all the members of this group who have expressed that their thoughts are with us Londoners.) From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 8 23:06:34 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:06:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Brooms and Wandless Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CF06FA.3000307@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132307 zgirnius: >>Are the brooms WW folk use specially charmed/enchanted so they would >>fly? If so, could Muggles use them? (Perhaps they are excepted from >>the usual ban on enchanting Muggle artifacts for reasons of >>tradition?) >> bboyminn: >>Flying Brooms are not ordinary brooms that have been enchanted to fly. >>They are special devices magically created specifically for flying; >>that much is a fact. They do not resemble anything that any modern >>muggle would regard as a broom or something functionally able to >>actually sweep; again by modern standards. >> >>As to whether a muggle could get a flying broom to fly, I'm not sure. >>We have to ponder to what extent a flying brooms flying ability is >>self-contained, and to what extent it draws on the magic of the wizard >>doing the flying. >> >>Just a pure guess, but I think to some extent, it draws on the magic >>of the wizard doing the flying. The core nature of the object is >>enchanted into it, but the activation, motivation, and control of the >>flying broom must come from the wizard. >> >>Mostly, I just made that up, but it seems reasonable. >> >> You guys obviously haven't read "Quidditch Through the Ages". :) It talks in some detail about the history of brooms and enchantments thereon. Originally, wizards used brooms to get around on precisely because they were regular muggle objects that would be unusual to have lying around the house. But they were uncomfortable, so they came up with cushioning charms. Anyway, yes they were regular brooms, then enchanted. Oh, and they soon also discovered the need for braking charms... As things progressed, they started making brooms that were designed just for flying. But the essence of the flying aspect is indeed in charms on it - the construction is part of the technology, but only in that it enhances the charms rather than creates them. Modern brooms have all sorts of fancy charms on them, as well as the latest advances in design and aerodynamics. They're always working on improving the quality of the charms or coming up with new ones. However -- does this mean an ordinary muggle could use a broom? I don't think so. It's enchanted to fly, yes, but actually *enabling* it, accessing the charm, controlling it, requires the riders' own magic. Otherwise, they wouldn't even really need 'flying lessons', they'd just pick it up and press the 'go' button. They have to learn how to channel their magic energy into the broom, or something like that. Harry was a natural flier -- the kind of 'magic access' needed for flying is a kind that comes easily to him. Other types of magic he's had to work at more. Conversely, Hermione was not a good flier right off the bat. (In fact, have we ever seen her on a broom?) It's a difficult 'kind' of magic for her, though most magic is simple as 1-2-3. If Hermione has trouble with it, my goodness certainly a muggle would! So basically, any broom can be enchanted to fly -- though it won't be as controllable or as efficient as a modern flying broom. The flying comes from the charms. However it takes a wizard to be able to 'turn on' the charms, so to speak... they lie dormant in the broom until called upon by a magic being. Now I've expanded a lot from what is written in QTTA, but this is the impression I got from reading that book, of how it all works. heather the buzzard From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 00:28:26 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: <203.53278d6.3000463a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050709002826.92572.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132308 --- BrwNeil at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/8/2005 2:24:30 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > I've said in a previous post that I have no idea who > will end up with who. > I disagree, however, that any alternatives would be > complex to write. I'm no > JKR, but following is an example of how easy it > would be to change H/G and > R/Hr to H/Hr and R/L. Not at all complex, done in > six lines. I read your scene. Yes, it could be written, but IMO, it would be badly written. It's at least two books books of buidup with no scene between Ron and Hermione and Ron basically says "nah, decided not to - now I fancy that girl I was calling a loon." Come on besides that it builds to an anticlimax, we'd at least need to *see* that Ron's attitude towards Hermione had changed and then we'd need to see (well, this one isn't so much a need, but it'd help) Ron's attitude towards Luna change. Plus we'd need to see the as-yet-unseen feelings that Harry would need to harbour for Hermione. That'd take a lot more than six lines - at least to be done well (to not come totally out of left field). Lastly, I think Hermione has demonstrated feelings towards Ron, so I think that'd need to be addressed too. Rebecca Also, I think HERMIONE __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 00:30:26 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:30:26 -0000 Subject: SPOILER - cover + 2 posts = THE cliffhanger of Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132309 Since I don't want to accidentally spoil a possible cliffhanger in Book 6 that I had suggested a week or two ago but now has become FAR FAR more likely, and to avoid showing the cover to those who do not want to see it, I am using links heavily. Based on the cover as shown on mugglenet at http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg and three posts from my group potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/message/86 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/message/56 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/message/87 (soon) I think we are being set up for on helluva cliffhanger at the end of HBP .... I had thought that the scenario proposed as the last question of my fourth poll on that site was way cool but not that likely, after seeing the back cover the odds of that ending go up tenfold ..... {bagman reaches for all that is left of his gold ......} tinglinger who loves seeing things that arent YET there in what IS here now.... and doens't mind be wrong once in a while as long as the theories are interesting ........ See my yahoogroup potterplots and chech out the polls if you don't mind a spoiler or two.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 00:34:56 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:34:56 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132310 Captain Neri, from his place at the helm of the ELKINS AVENGED, looks through his ominiculars at the new ship who has the nerve to invade these dangerous waters. "Man the cannons!" he bellows at his crew. "Lets find out if the fish of Theory Bay like to eat cat poo!" Dungrollin wrote : > This is the important bit ----> > 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds > uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had finished > breaking through her memory charm (but before he disposed of her, > obviously).<----- Neri: I think "sounds uncannily like" is a bit of a strong expression here, since all we know about Bertha's state is Voldy's words: "she was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless" (GoF, Ch. 1). Voldy's criteria for Bertha's fitness and usefulness might not be the same as Bertha's own criteria. Not a problematic point exactly, but making it the main canon of a new ship several days before the hurricane strikes me as a bit unsafe. Granted, I'm hardly the person to talk. Dungrollin wrote: > But what about Crouch Senior? We never saw DD and Crouch together, > except in the Pensieve, where they hardly had the opportunity to > give us clues about their relationship. I don't necessarily think > they particularly liked each other, but they may well have shared a > good deal of information about fighting Voldy. The head of the Order > of the Phoenix, and the head of the Department of Magical Law > Enforcement exchanging information and working together. Sounds > plausible, right? Neri: Another small problem I see with this is that if DD and Crouch Sr. worked together, then DD would know (or at least highly suspect) how Crouch Jr. came by the information about the Longbottoms. So why did DD say to Harry in the GoF Pensieve chapter that he had no idea if Crouch Jr. was guilty or not? Dungrollin wrote: > To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and > Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had > been placed on Frank and Alice. The rest is all trying to make > sense of it. > Neri: If it is found that Frank and Alice are Memory Charmed, then what about Neville? Either he was MCharmed too (why?!) or his memory problems are merely psychological with nothing magical about them. That last possibility, IMO, would come out rather lame. Has JKR been playing Neville's poor memory since forever only to tell us in the end that it's *his parents* that received the memory charm, while Neville himself is actually fine, thanks? Nope, *if* Frank and Alice are indeed MCharmed, I think it strongly implies that Neville is MCharmed too. So the options I see are: 1. Neither Neville nor his parents are MCharmed. Frank and Alice are incapacitated "merely" because of torture trauma (probably the most likely option, but then what *is* the Longbottoms' story, and what's going on with the bubblegum wrappers?). 2. Both Neville and his parents are MCharmed (requires an explanation how Neville got it too, and also why is Neville's charm much weaker than that of his parents). 3. Neville is MCharmed but his parents are merely traumatized (still requires an explanation why was Neville MCharmed, and also how is he going to recover). 4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents were MCharmed (as I wrote above this would be rather lame plotting IMO). 5. Neville's parents were treated with Forgetfulness Potion and Neville got it from them through the wrappers (the ELKINS AVENGED scenario. This explains why Neville got it too, why his memory problems are weaker than his parents', what is the role of the wrappers and how Frank and Alice can recover fast enough to tell us their secret). Neri, getting really fed up with ship biscuits and tuna, and wishing the hurricane would be here already. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 00:40:36 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:40:36 -0000 Subject: FakeMoody, Snape, Legilimency, and Motives Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132311 Marci's wrote: Fake Moody was in Snape's office to steal boomslang skin for polyjuice potion so he could continue to be Fake Moody. The search was a cover story only. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I understand that part, that is not really what I was talking about, from Snape's point of view someone was searching his office, I think I just misworded what I was saying...from Snapes point of view someone was searching his office, and he thinks it was Harry. meh..maybe I really wasan't asking a question as to more I was making a point...but, I think I've forgotten what it was now... Marci again: According to DD, Real Moody was known to only drink from his own flask (and to be very paranoid) which allowed Fake Moody to drink polyjuice potion once an hour to maintain his disguise. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I think I was asking about How the real Moody acted towards Snape here....I don't know that I had any question about polyjuice...humm... Marci's comment: hindsight suggests that Crouch jr, an unrepentant DE, was saying something about his own "spots". KarentheUnicorn's Reply: hum...maybe he was talking about himself, but, I took the conversation as he was talking about Snape's spot...hum...I don't see how it works as to he is talking about himself in that conversation....I guess we see that part differently. I see the spots that don't come off as a dig at Snape...I think I was questioning if it would be something the real moody might say in refering to Snape.... Marci's suggestion: Snape may have been a DE, but he has DD's trust. Harry saw in the pensieve that Snape was a "double agent" before LV's defeat and DD testified in his behalf. Also, as noted above, Fake Moody was not an auror; he was Barty Crouch jr, an unrepentant DE. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Um....I know that Barty was Moody....um..I though Moody was an auror? Am I wrong...wasn't he an auror??? I think my question/comment was in reference to How the real Moody acted towards Snape...not how FakeBartyMoody acted towards Snape...I believe I was refering/asking about how long the real Moody and Snape would have known each other, and how they acted towards each other......meh..maybe I didn't make myself clear or..something...hum... KarentheUnicorn From wyzdyx at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 23:58:33 2005 From: wyzdyx at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:58:33 -0000 Subject: HBP: US back cover, single scene or composite of several? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132312 > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > If the back cover is from a single point in the book, then the common > interpretation of a killing occurring at Hogwarts is quite reasonable. > But what does it mean if the back cover images are pulled from > multiple parts of the book? > > Allen Using this link you can see several versions of front & back covers for both the US & UK versions of HBP: http://www.hogwarts- gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/category.php? cat=176&expand=169,176,169,169,169,169&start=0 I see a green illumination in several of the covers, not unlike Harry's memories of the after-effects of the AK curse when his mother died & LV was defeated. The other recurring theme is Harry & Dumbledore together either looking into a shallow stone "bowl" or with wands raised in a defensive position. In the UK children's cover HP & DD seem to be encircled by a "rope" of "flame" emanating from their raised wands; on the UK adult back cover, 2 male arms (one appears to be adolescent) are entwined in a "rope" of "flame"; it looks as if they may be arm-wrestling. Other UK covers show a well-worn advanced potions textbook or a gold ring with a stone (it may have a crest), but the stone has a lightningbolt-shaped split in it. I have a strong feeling that Harry may not defeat LV at the end of this book, but he will survive to come from behind next time. JKR said he will survive *to* book 7, and that books 6 & 7 would be like 2 halves of 1 story covering 2 years at Hogwarts. Wyzdyx From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 00:45:02 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:45:02 -0000 Subject: Brooms and Wandless Magic - Nitpick In-Reply-To: <42CF06FA.3000307@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > > You guys obviously haven't read "Quidditch Through the Ages". :) > > It talks in some detail about the history of brooms and enchantments > thereon. Originally, wizards used brooms to get around on precisely > because they were regular muggle objects ... bboyminn: Oddly enough, I agree with you completely, but none the less feel the need to pick a few nits. What passed for a broom in 950AD is not what passes for a broom today. A modern muggle broom would be completely useless for flying even if you enchanted it, and a modern flying broom still does not look anything like a modern sweeping broom. > Heather: > > ... so they came up with cushioning charms. ... braking charms... > > As things progressed, t... brooms that were designed just > for flying. But the essence of the flying aspect is indeed in > charms on it - the construction is part of the technology, but only > in that it enhances the charms rather than creates them. > > Modern brooms have all sorts of fancy charms on them, as well as the > latest advances in design and aerodynamics. ... > bboyminn: Which confirms my central point, that flying brooms are not sweeping brooms, they are device specifically made for flying. They, as you point out, are constructed specifically with flying in mind, then they have the basic flying charm applied to them. To the basic flying charm are added various standard accessory charms like cushion charms. Then performance charms are added braking, reversing, anti-jinx, etc.... Then I suspect a variety of optional accessory charms are added. It's sort of like buying a new car. But the final result is a long way from anything that any muggle would identify as a modern sweeping broom. Further, flying brooms even if you made the 'broom' connection would probably be terrible at sweeping anything but large object like leaves and clods of dirt, and then you wouldn't be so much sweeping as just pushing the stuff around. > Heather concludes: > > However -- does this mean an ordinary muggle could use a broom? I > don't think so. It's enchanted to fly, yes, but actually *enabling* > it, accessing the charm, controlling it, requires the riders' own > magic. ... > > heather the buzzard bboyminn: In this area I think you are touching on the key. The broom has the capacity to fly, but not the ability to do so. It is the wizard who lends the ability to function to the device's innate capacity to fly. Seems reasonable. Steve/bboyminn From jaxx189 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 23:45:13 2005 From: jaxx189 at yahoo.com (jaxx189) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:45:13 -0000 Subject: SPOILER : HBP cover. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132314 Is it possible for current Hogwarts' students to have received the dark mark and have conjured it? Or are we assuming that is the parents of current students who have conjured it? Jaxx. From pkdawson at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 01:14:58 2005 From: pkdawson at gmail.com (Patrick Dawson) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:14:58 -0000 Subject: SPOILER : HBP cover. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jaxx189" wrote: > > Is it possible for current Hogwarts' students to have received the dark > mark and have conjured it? Or are we assuming that is the parents of > current students who have conjured it? > > > Jaxx. Interesting thought. So far it seems only Death Eaters know how to conjure the dark mark, though I doubt it's terribly difficult to learn. But remember, the dark mark inspires fear because it was associated with murders. Draco and his gang don't seem skilled enough to go around killing fellow students with impunity. From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 9 01:24:35 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:24:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CF2753.20306@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132316 tonihollifield wrote: > This is the link: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > Major Spoilers! > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind > Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! > > Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) > > --Toni This may seem a silly question, but if that is supposed to be Harry, where are his glass. Up til now that has been his most noticeable characteristic in pictures. Curious KJ From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 01:30:50 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:30:50 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > >rolshan2000 wrote: > > Any storyline other than a "simple" extension of what has been > > heavily hinted before - R/H and H/G, would require a great deal of > > development. > Phonixgod2000 responded: > I would take issue with the idea that H/G is heavily hinted at in > the books. R/Hr yes, but not HG. There is no butterflys in Harry's > stomach, no longing looks, no anything like what he had with cho. > Other than a few (minor) literary conventions there is nothing to > suggest that Harry and Ginny will end up together. Max responds: While I agree that H/G has not been heavily hinted at, it's also not accurate, imo, to say that there is "nothing to suggest" a possible romance. Many have persuasively argued that the groundwork for a H/G romance has been slowly laid through all five books of the series. Of course the same could be said of a possible H/Hr relationship. The fact of the matter is, Cho dominated Harry's romantic view scape for the past three books. There was no chance of another girl giving him butterflies. With Cho now seemingly out of the picture we have no idea who might attract his attention next. What makes the most sense to many readers though, is that the 'next girl' will be someone whose personality we are already fairly familiar with. There are only two more books. The story arc will need to start consolidating and winding towards the conclusion. Imo, it is doubtful that Rowling will introduce yet another female character for us to get to know when we have three perfectly good possibilities already developed and present. A Harry romance with anyone other than Ginny, Luna or Hermione(or even Cho, for that matter)would seem to the reader like he's being paired with a stranger. > Phoenixgod wrote: > I don't think that romance will be a major part of the book either > and I think that speaks against H/G more than speaks for it. Imagine > the reprecussions in the Weasley family if Harry and Ginny started > to date. Imagine the pages having to be ear marked for Harry to > agonize over whether or not Molly is going to be happy for him. Or > the talks with Ron. . . Max responds: I suppose it's all a matter of opinion, but I just don't see it. I think JKR could convincingly portray an H/G relationship without pages of agonizing exposition with various members of the Weasley family. It's not like he's some stranger that the Weasleys would want to get to know. They're already all quite comfortable with him. > Phoenixgod wrote: > It didn't take Harry long to get a crush on Cho, why would it take > any longer for another character? Max responds: >From the story arc point of view the question is not - how long did it take Harry to develop a crush on Cho - but how long was the crush developed in terms of the storyline? Harry's crush on Cho was introduced in PoA and developed through the next two books. There is simply not enough time with the story winding down to repeat a similar scenario. Therefore, it will need to be someone for whom the groundwork has already been laid. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 9 01:56:16 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:56:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132318 Cap'n SSSusan of the DRIBBLE SHADOWS, bowing to Cap'n Dung of the *infinitely* better named CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO. "Welcome to the Bay, Cap'n Dung. And a tip of the hat to you, too, Cap'n Neri. How *do* you manage to pilot both the VASSAL and the ELKINS AVENGED??" Dungrollin stated: > This is the important bit ----> > 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds > uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had finished > breaking through her memory charm (but before he disposed of her, > obviously).<----- Neri replied: I think "sounds uncannily like" is a bit of a strong expression here, since all we know about Bertha's state is Voldy's words: "she was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless" (GoF, Ch. 1). Voldy's criteria for Bertha's fitness and usefulness might not be the same as Bertha's own criteria. Not a problematic point exactly, but making it the main canon of a new ship several days before the hurricane strikes me as a bit unsafe. Granted, I'm hardly the person to talk. SSSusan: I think I'd be less inclined to quibble about this than you, Neri. It's true that this isn't a very *thorough* description of Bertha, and we have a much better picture of what condition Alice & Frank are in from having witnessed them at St. Mungo's, but I do think Dung's correct that the similarity is notable. "Fit for nothing, quite useless" ? sounds like someone whose mind's pretty much gone, a la Frank & Alice, to me. Dung theorized: I favour the idea that the Longbottoms *agreed* to have their memories erased by Crouch and Dumbledore, knowing that their knowledge of the prophecy would be invaluable to the Death Eaters. DD wanted to set up Fidelius charms to protect the Longbottoms and the Potters, with himself as secret-keeper. For whatever reason (though I'm happy to agree with Snape that it was James' arrogance), the Potters refuse, and go with Sirius. The Longbottoms accepted DD's offer, and so he told them the prophecy, knowing that the information was safe with them. After Voldy got gassed at GH, a number of DEs were still at large, and DD and Crouch knew that this meant the Longbottoms were in danger of revealing the prophecy. So they all got together, and Frank and Alice agreed to have their memories modified. At home, Barty Crouch Senior lets slip that he had to modify the memories of two of his best Aurors because they knew something important, and Barty Crouch Junior (assuming excitedly that this means they know where Voldy's hiding) scurries off to his Death Eater pals to plan an evening's Auror torture. Neri: Another small problem I see with this is that if DD and Crouch Sr. worked together, then DD would know (or at least highly suspect) how Crouch Jr. came by the information about the Longbottoms. So why did DD say to Harry in the GoF Pensieve chapter that he had no idea if Crouch Jr. was guilty or not? SSSusan: Here I tend to be in agreement with Neri. The weakest portion of the CROUCHING theory imo ? which Dungrollin herself admits ["And anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and cobbled the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will be... ahem... correct"] ? is the inclusion of Crouch Sr. WHY would DD have been working with him? Did he ever really trust him enough to have included him in something this important? But then again, the idea that DD offered to be SK for both couples, only the Longbottoms accepted, and so only the Longbottoms knew the prophecy's contents, and Crouch Jr. heard about it via Crouch Sr. *does* make for a nice little unfolding of events. And if Crouch Sr. is removed from the equation, then how would Barty Jr. have found out & informed Bella, et al., that they needed to get to the Longbottoms? Neri suggested: So the options I see are: 1. Neither Neville nor his parents are MCharmed. 2. Both Neville and his parents are MCharmed (requires an explanation how Neville got it too, and also why is Neville's charm much weaker than that of his parents). 3. Neville is MCharmed but his parents are merely traumatized 4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents were MCharmed 5. Neville's parents were treated with Forgetfulness Potion and Neville got it from them through the wrappers (the ELKINS AVENGED scenario. SSSusan: I see a 6th possibility, or at least an extention of #2. And it fits with what Dung proposed: Dung: To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had been placed on Frank and Alice. SSSusan: IOW, Possibility 6 is that Neville and his parents were both MCharmed, but Frank & Alice are so much worse off because they were *also* tortured so horribly by the DEs trying to break through the MCs. I still can't offer an explanation as to why Neville would have been MCharmed at age 15 ? 18 months (or thereabouts), but there certainly has been speculation by an awful lot of people that Neville's been MC'ed. So maybe someone else will pitch in here with a suggestion for that? Neri concluded: Neri, getting really fed up with ship biscuits and tuna, and wishing the hurricane would be here already. SSSusan: We've still got margarita fixin's on the DRIBBLE SHADOWS. You're welcome to set your gangplank against her & come aboard! Siriusly Snapey Susan From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 9 02:20:18 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:20:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CF3462.8030207@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132319 > Neri suggested: > So the options I see are: > > 1. Neither Neville nor his parents are MCharmed. > > 2. Both Neville and his parents are MCharmed (requires an explanation > how Neville got it too, and also why is Neville's charm much weaker > than that of his parents). > > 3. Neville is MCharmed but his parents are merely traumatized > > 4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents > were MCharmed > > 5. Neville's parents were treated with Forgetfulness Potion and > Neville got it from them through the wrappers (the ELKINS AVENGED > scenario. > Kathy Writes: So what if none of them are memory charmed. Could it be that once V. disappeared DD stopped being a SK because it was no longer needed. It could be that as a result of the Potters' murders that Frank and Alice discovered who the "spy" was in the Order and were trying to get in touch with DD to spill the beans. The DE "knew what steps V had taken to prevent his death" and expected him back momentarily. They were perhaps trying to prevent this exposure to protect their spy in case V. reappeared as suddenly as he disappeared. The book said that they had been crucio'd until their minds snapped. Perhaps Frank and Alice attempted to convince them that they did not know the name of the spy, so the DE just tortured them to make sure. If they had admitted to knowing the name of the spy, they would have been killed. Perhaps Alice only has enough left on the ball to try to tell Neville something as he has access to DD. She doesn't give the wrappers to Neville's Granny, she gives them to him. Neville could be nothing more than lacking in confidence and his own wand instead of his father's wand. What do you think, too James Bond? KJ From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat Jul 9 02:28:45 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:28:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Relationships Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132320 In a message dated 7/8/2005 9:32:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, mad_maxime at hotmail.com writes: Max responds: >From the story arc point of view the question is not - how long did it >take Harry to develop a crush on Cho - but how long was the crush >developed in terms of the storyline? Harry's crush on Cho was >introduced in PoA and developed through the next two books. There is >simply not enough time with the story winding down to repeat a similar >scenario. Therefore, it will need to be someone for whom the >groundwork has already been laid. I guess I have more faith in the ability of Rowling. This isn't a romance novel, but many such novels have the characters meet at the beginning of the book and be in love by the end. In many such cases only a matter of weeks has taken place. If book six and seven are written in the same manner as previous books then we are talking two years passage of time. How many of you met and fell in love with someone in the course of less than two years? I agree that logic points to Luna, Ginny or Hermione because they are known to us, but remember that Luna wasn't known to us just one book ago yet many are now willing to pair her with either Harry or Ron. With JKR, I wouldn't be so fast to rule out anything. I think most people say there is not enough time for a new girl simply because they ship one of the already available girls. So do I, but I think JKR still has time to do anything she pleases to do. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 9 03:04:07 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:04:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the b... Message-ID: <13d.16c819ea.300098a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132321 In a message dated 7/8/2005 1:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, allthingshp at yahoo.com writes: Spoiler space 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Should be enough space: I think Harry is around the corner on the front of the book...not in absent on purpose or anything. Also I was thinking that the fourth person we see behind "Ron" is maybe Dean...not Cho. allthingshp I dunno. My impression is that's it a female. ould be Luna. Her eyes look bigger than the others to me and the hair looks faintly blond. We'll find out soon enough. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 9 03:15:18 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:15:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Brooms and Wandless Magic Message-ID: <80.2b3d8aef.30009b46@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132322 In a message dated 7/8/2005 3:31:29 PM Central Standard Time, zgirnius at yahoo.com writes: Are the brooms WW folk use specially charmed/enchanted so they would fly? If so, could Muggles use them? (Perhaps they are excepted from the usual ban on enchanting Muggle artifacts for reasons of tradition?) If not, does this mean that in theory any old broom can be used by a witch/wizard to fly? Since we don't see people waving their wands to activate a broom, is this another example of wandless magic? (Along with Potions, LV's legilimency, and other examples Well if Quidditch Through The Ages is considered canon then I'd have to say no . There is a remark in there about how broom flying is the magical world's worst kept secret. And how the brooms that Muggles draw wizards flying on would never be able to get off the ground. Now assuming that the Muggles were just drawing common ordinary brooms then I would have to say that no -- not just any old broom can fly. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 03:18:35 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 03:18:35 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote: > > > Max wrote: > > >From the story arc point of view the question is not - how long > >did it take Harry to develop a crush on Cho - but how long was the > >crush developed in terms of the storyline? Harry's crush on Cho > >was introduced in PoA and developed through the next two books. > >There is simply not enough time with the story winding down to > >repeat a similar scenario. Therefore, it will need to be someone > >for whom the groundwork has already been laid. > BrwNeil responded: >I guess I have more faith in the ability of Rowling. This isn't a >romance novel, but many such novels have the characters meet at the >beginning of the book and be in love by the end. In many such cases >only a matter of weeks has taken place. Max replies: My opinion above has nothing to do with a lack of faith in Rowling's writing abilities. Imo, I'm simply talking about practicalities. Since romance in the HP novels is just a minor plot point and the story arc is winding down, why would Rowling feel the need to introduce a new female character when three developed possibilities already exist? Of course she *could* introduce a new character, but why would she need to? >BrwNeil wrote: >If book six and seven are written in the same manner as previous >books then we are talking two years passage of time. How many of you >met and fell in love with someone in the course of less than two >years? Max responds: In reality, two years is more than enough time to develop a relationship and fall in love, but we're not talking about reality here. We're talking about a storyline which is coming to it's conclusion. The puzzle pieces need to start falling into place. The questions need to start being answered. And this is exactly what Rowling and the publishers have said will happen in books 6 & 7. Rowling has stated, in fact, that she sees books 6 & 7 as one continuous narrative broken into two. >BrwNeil wrote: >I think JKR still has time to do anything she pleases to do. Max replies: Well we'll just have to agree to disagree here for all the reasons mentioned above. :) From April at cyberlinc.net Sat Jul 9 02:25:39 2005 From: April at cyberlinc.net (April Johnson) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:25:39 -0400 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: <02c101c5842d$a54feac0$1502a8c0@april> No: HPFGUIDX 132324 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Professor Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) My opinion is that Gilderoy Lockhart had a son with a Muggle, and his son is the Half Blood Prince. Lockhart just looks kind of lionly to me. And his name gives some clues as well. Lockhart to me, sounds like maybe he had a relationship, but was unable to commit, because of his own love for himsself. Gilderoy is neat because Gilde is like a gilded view of himself while roy is another term for King. Which would make his son a prince, if he deemed himself a king. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think Lily's big secret is that she knew more about the Dark Arts than James knew about. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? NEW CHARACTER I think we'll learn who the new DADA teacher is after Harry leaves the Dursley's but before he gets to Hogwarts, as it has been in every book so far. I don't think its a charachter that we know of already. He or She will most likely have a secret that will be revealed at the end of the book, like all the others, and they will only stay for the year. Although, I think Harry will be taking private DADA lessons from someone else. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny would be my best guess. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I think its a cauldron. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Most definetly 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I think he will try 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 ------------ 1. Rita Skeeter will be used once again either by Harry and Hermione, or by the Ministry, to help get the word out to wizards that Voldemort has risen once again. 2. Harry will see Draco going into Knocturn Alley and Harry will follow him to see what he's up to. 3. Harry will learn what steps Voldemort took to ensure his immortality. 4. We find out that Severus Snape and Sirius Black are related. 5. A member of the Slytherin House will join Harry against Voldemort. April [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jul 9 04:28:37 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:28:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CAD838.5050404@sympatico.ca> References: <42CAD838.5050404@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1558080246.20050708212837@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132325 davenclaw: d> Dumbledore saved d> him the first time, and then basically came up with the plan that he d> had them put into action to save Sirius. I like this idea -- The paradox goes away if, say, Dumbledore polyjuiced himself (or is powerful enough not to *need* PP) as Harry. My only problem is, why would he bother polyjuicing himself? He had no way of knowing at that point that Harry would go back in time -- Unless he saw that Buckbeak escaped and surmised that Harry needs to go back in time to save him. But then, how did he know if was Future!Harry and not Present!Harry who saved Buckbeak? Of course it occurs to me that Dumbledore himself might have time-travelled back, and that it's Future!Dumbledore who accompanies Fudge and MacNair to Hagrid's hut (Hence his ironic "How Extraordinary"!) I think I need a pencil and paper to figure this out... heather: htb> There was nothing to change, because it always happened that way. This htb> is the hard part to wrap your brain around, I know. Yes, it's hard for a *lot* of us, because if the future is predetermined, then these's no Free Will, and all the lip service Jo and Dumbledore give to "the choices we make" is invalidated. -- Dave From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 9 05:07:44 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 01:07:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132326 In a message dated 7/8/2005 8:25:26 PM Central Standard Time, kjones at telus.net writes: More spoiler space This may seem a silly question, but if that is supposed to be Harry, where are his glass. Up til now that has been his most noticeable characteristic in pictures. Curious KJ If you are referring to the person standing next to Ron that's not Harry .. that's Hermione. Scholastic said that the back cover shows Ron, Hermione and 2 other students . .it didn't even name Ginny as one of the students. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prncssme at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 05:10:52 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:10:52 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: <42CF2753.20306@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > tonihollifield wrote: > > This is the link: > > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?image_location=hbpbackcover1.jpg > > > > Major Spoilers! > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > It looks to me to be Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, and possible Cho (behind > > Ron) looking up at the Dark Mark over Hogwarts! > > > > Any thought?? (dumb question -- I know! :-)) > > > > --Toni > > This may seem a silly question, but if that is supposed to be Harry, > where are his glass. Up til now that has been his most noticeable > characteristic in pictures. > Curious > KJ Princess Sara: I think it's supposed to be Ron, not Harry, especially with the long thin nose and the reddish hair. Which would explain the lack of glasses. I'm also thinking that the "mystery student" behind Ron could be a Patil twin...or Dean Thomas. I'm thinking Patil girl because the face seems slightly feminine to me but I will admit that my first thought was Dean. - Princess Sara From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Jul 9 04:33:25 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:33:25 -0700 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: <02c101c5842d$a54feac0$1502a8c0@april> References: <02c101c5842d$a54feac0$1502a8c0@april> Message-ID: <42CF5395.201@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132328 >1. Who will be the most major character to die? I suspect Lupin. He is the last of the 'good' Marauders. Peter will die either at the end of this book or more likely the end of the last one and will betray Voldemort. >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) Lord Voldemort. It's so simple it's right under everyone's nose, but noone thinks of 'evil princes'. He will seek to become a self-styled Prince as things look bleaker and bleaker... And he is a half blood, even if most the fans keep forgetting this. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big secret. Maybe a few little unreveled facts, but no big secrets. >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? If not a new Character.. Mad Eye Moody might come back being as they need a GOOD one this time? More likely a new character as all the ones before have been new ones. >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He might notice Hermione is female for once and this might cause friction between him and Ron. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Fudge will remain as such through this book at least, but will posibly be more trouble then good still through his bumbling. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensive. >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Maybe, but he won't enjoy it. Neither will Snape. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 9 06:01:33 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 02:01:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <1558080246.20050708212837@mindspring.com> References: <42CAD838.5050404@sympatico.ca> <1558080246.20050708212837@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <42CF683D.7060500@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132329 >heather: > >htb> There was nothing to change, because it always happened that way. This is the hard part to wrap your brain around, I know. > > > dave: >Yes, it's hard for a *lot* of us, because if the future is >predetermined, then these's no Free Will, and all the lip service >Jo and Dumbledore give to "the choices we make" is invalidated. > > Actually, I addressed this in another post. Free Will can still be in play. An individual still 'chooses' to go back in time, and chooses their actions when they do so. The difficult part is that the effect of their choice appears to precede -- by our linear perception -- the making of the choice. However, in the greater scheme of Time, looked at as a whole rather than as a forward-moving line, the choice came 'first' -- or perhaps more accurately, which came 'first' becomes irrelevant. There is no 'first' in the greater scheme of Time; only in our perception of it. Why did Harry, Hermione and DD instigate the TT adventures? Because they chose to. Just because they had already experienced some of the results of that decision before they knew they were to make it, does not mean they were guided by *fate* or by *predestination*. They were guided by their *own choices*, their future choices. In the greater scheme of Time, our concept of time is irrelevant. Everything that has and ever will happen is "already" there (our vocabulary, based in linear time perception, falls short of the task of describing a lack-of-time and leaves ambiguities unforunately). It is all still determined by the choices we make along our journeys through Time. It's just possible to look at it all from 'outside' of time. (Well, not possible for us, strictly speaking, but theoretically possible lol) If you look back at your life, it is already set in stone. You did this, you dated that person, you sent this letter, you didn't go into that restaurant, you studied that night, you didn't make that phone call. Do you not have 'free will' over those years because you already know what happened? Of course not. Now you say "of course not, because that's the past, it's already happened. The future is still open." I'm just saying - that's true from our perception. But you must imagine a frame of reference where there is no past or future, but it's all just *there*. From that perspective, the future has 'already happened' in the same way the past has to our limited perception. Another way to perceive it, perhaps... Twenty years from now, you will be able to look back at choices you haven't made yet, and see them as 'set in stone' as firmly as you see your current past. Does this still mean you lack Free Will in those next twenty years? Again, of course not. But your 20-years-older self will see those 20 years as concrete, as unchangeable, and as irrefutable as anything, which to you right now are utterly unseeable and unknowable. If someone looked into the future, assuming that was possible (and accurate, not this "possible future" mumbo-jumbo-copout), would that eliminate your Free Will? I would argue, NO. It is only seeing the results of the choices you are going to make before you've made them (again, by our perception). This is all just an exercise in perception, of learning to look outside our one-dimensional linear approach to thinking about Time. What it comes down to, is H and H made a choice of their own free will, and experienced the results of their choice 'before' they made it. It's a paradox of cause and effect only if we remain linear about it. :) heather the buzzard (having fun) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 06:43:51 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 06:43:51 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132330 On the General Rule of Law in the Wizard World- ...and how it applies to the Black Estate. I really don't think there is much civil or criminal law in the wizard world. Most of the law and law enforcement is related to keeping knowledge of the wizard world from muggles. Someone said they thought the wizarding world didn't necessarily follow muggle law, and that the wizard's law might be radically different. In a sense I agree, but in another sense I don't. I think very old historical legal concepts like 'Eldest Son' inherits, which is centuries old, would be generally ingrained in wizard society, and I think all other general law would mirror the muggle world. But muggle law is incredibly detailed and complex. I think wizard law is radically different, not because of the admitted endless bureaucratic law, but because written wizard's law, especially criminal law, is very basic, which leaves tremendous room for the court to create spontaneous legal precedents in the courtroom. In summary, it's not a matter of convincing the court of the legality of your arguments, it's simply a matter of convincing the court. The courts have tremendous leeway in making on the spot judgements. I'm not sure I explained that first part well, so let me try it again. True, we see that the wizard world has more than its share of bureaucratic law and petty political laws, but most are relate to the Statue of Secrecy. However, I think very little exists in the true criminal sense, and very little in the criminal aspect of civil law. Trying one more time, there is some bureaucratic thickness to the legal books, but I think the laws that regulate and control everyday life are pretty basic. It's hard to describe accurately because it's both complex and basic at that same time. Don't get me wrong, the wizard world like any society has the basics; you don't steal, you don't harm, you don't kill. But I don't think it goes much beyond that. In a sense, a very general sense, the wizard world is a frontier society. They have just enough law to keep general order, and beyond that it's every man for himself. That's not really such a bad thing since most people are honest and really want to live a safe orderly life. Keep in mind that all law enforcement we've seen in the books relates to magic. Aurors chase dark wizard and control people practicing the dark arts. Magical Law Enforcement is related to the Statue of Secrecy, and dealing with magical accidents. We see no general criminal law enforcement body. That apect seems to be left up to the general honesty of the wizard population. As we can tell from Harry's hearing, a trial isn't so much about convincing the court that your position conforms to specific legal points, as it is about just plain convincing the courts. That's one of the reason why this 'rule of law by committee' is so prone to corruption. It's never a matter of who is truly right or wrong based on specific interpretation of the Law, it's a matter of the most articulate person convincing the court that they should rule in his favor. Notice the lack of any legal advocates for the defendant in the court. Another indication that law and order is VERY basic in the wizard world. Because of this, I think any conflict regarding Sirius's estate will be based on eventually convincing the court to favor one person over another. A handwritten Will from Sirius, may not have strong legal value, but if it is witnessed by someone like Dumbledore who is now in favor again, it would have tremendous weight in convincing the court that his is truly what Sirius wanted. All that said, I don't think the matter of Sirius's death will ever see the inside of a courtroom until it suits the Order's advantage. I believe the Order will deal with the issue with a staged approach. At first they will avoid the issue, no one knows Sirius is dead, and they'll leave it that way for now. At some point, they have to deal with it, and their first order of business will to prove Sirius is innocent; if not in a court of law then at least in public opinion. I smell another Rita Skeeter article coming. Once they lay that foundation, they re-establish Sirius's credibility, and that lends weight to any handwritten Will he may have created, and that opens the door to officially resolving the estate. So the short version is, in regard to resolving Sirius's Will and Estate, it's simply a matter of Dumbledore and others convincing the court that Harry should get the estate, rather than heavy reliance on specific applied law. For the final point, I still say that in the absents of a handwritten Will, Harry has no legal foundation at all, and the estate is then resolved among the remain close relatives of the Black Family. If 'eldest son' is given precedence, and a Will exists or Sirius expressed his wishes to witnesses, then it's a fight between Harry and Draco over the estate. A fight that I think will make a great subplot. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 9 06:47:29 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 06:47:29 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldrons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132331 > Janelle: > > I'm not sure exactly what the connection might be but it seems that > there's something going on here with cauldrons. Will a leaky > cauldron somehow play a part in the story and make the front page of > the Daily Prophet? Or was there a leaky cauldron involved the last > time you-know-who had power? Is this maybe where the name for the > pub came from? Are there any other references to leaky cauldrons? > I'll definitely keep an eye out for them as I continue reading. > > What do you guys think? > Adi: Hey, it was me who posted that original message. Thanks for finding so much about cauldrons. But I also had another point to make. Everyone says that on the frontcover, Harry and Dumbledore are looking into pensieve. But wasn't pensieve a device which could be held in hands? This looks too big to be a pensieve. Anyway, my point was that this looks like a pictorial transcription of a big cauldron that is also leaking. Forget that leaky cauldron is a name and look at the picture. Wouldn't you describe it as a cauldron that is cracked and leaking? From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 07:19:35 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 07:19:35 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132332 > Dungrollin: > But what would flesh-eating slugs want with cabbages? Rather > than "Flesh-eating slug repellant. They're ruining the school > cabbages" it should surely read "Flesh-eating slug repellant. I've > lost three toes this week!" Ginger: I think it is more along the lines of, "Had ter get the flesh-eating slug repellant, the tickling slug repellant on'y had 'em laughin' and the pummeling slug repellant left a mess. See, Harry, yer get a good flesh-eating slug repellant and it not only chases 'em down, but it gets rid o' the dead slug too. Never know when yer gonna have a mess o' slugs to clean off yer floor or somethin'. Wanna see 'em? They're really interestin' creatures." As long as they leave the dungbeetles alone. Ginger As long as there is hope and courage, evil will never win. Hope never dies. May we always have courage. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jul 9 08:13:48 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 01:13:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question 2 - OOTP AK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95361340.20050709011348@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132333 Wednesday, July 6, 2005, 2:18:50 AM, esmith222002 wrote: e> If this IS the weapon, then why did LV so casually attempt to AK Harry, e> the minute he bumped into him in the Dept of Mysteries? He also did the e> same thing at the end of GOF. I too have been bothered by this, and my own theory I've adopted is that Dumbledore is wrongly assuming that Voldemort is seeking what is actually *in* the Prophecy. But I surmise that Voldemort wants it so badly because he's hoping for information that isn't in the Prophecy at all -- Goodies like how he can become immortal, how he can become Supreme Dictator of the World, etc. All this has (in his own twisted, arrogant mind) nothing to do with Harry -- He obviously still thinks killing Harry is just a matter of zapping him, especially now that Lily's protection (so he thinks) flows in his veins. (As Jane Austen writes, "Angry people are not always wise.") -- Dave From phil at pcsgames.net Sat Jul 9 10:56:14 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:56:14 -0400 Subject: The Leaky Cauldron questions References: Message-ID: <14ba01c58474$dbd2b860$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 132334 >From The Leaky Cauldron: Harry Potter News The three questions that TLC will definitely ask Jo Rowling on July 16 are, respectively: - Do memories in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person to which they belong? - What is the significance, if any, of the gum wrappers Mrs. Longbottom keeps giving to Neville? - How and when was the veil made? http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org From josturgess at eircom.net Sat Jul 9 11:00:59 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 11:00:59 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > Have I missed something obvious? Do you have any can(n)on to help? > Or do you want to sink me now? Do tell, do tell. Either way, there's > champagne and little sausages on sticks to be had, and we can polish > off the firewhisky and watch the sun go down sitting on the slowly > sinking wreckage, if necessary. > > Dungrollin > Fervently hoping that all in London are well. The air is hot and humid, the usual breezes seem reluctant to stir themselves, all over Theory Bay torpor has descended. Regular deckhands are lethargic and irritable sensing the futility of action in the face of the gathering storm. The incongruent bustle accompanying the launch of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Cat Poo has attracted idle navvies, old hands impressed by the audacity, or possibly arrogance, of a captain flying a new flag so close to immanent destruction. One such lag, Mooseming, is provoked to shame, recalling perhaps that the call of the sea was never for the faint hearted. Giving a rousing speech on the subject of a true sailor's courage, she launches the MINISUB and sets out to join Captain Dungrollin Meanwhile, opting to remain dockside, her erstwhile crewmates heckle and jeer, knowing the real lure is the offer of free champagne. Mooseming is not empty handed however, the Sailor's Code demands fair exchange, only Captain Dungrollin can decide if her goods are acceptable. What does she store in her hold to tempt such an esteemed skipper? Nothing. She comes only with the travellers standby, a story. Pulling aside the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Cat Poo she calls "Parley" to the Captain and this is the tale she has to tell. Voldemort is defeated and Harry Potter is victorious for the moment, he is hidden by Dumbledore, protected by Lily's blood charm. The Longbottom's are free from threat and Barty Snr sends his trusted son to convey the glad tidings. Barty Jnr, however, is a DE bent on seeking revenge for his master's mishap. He visit's the Longbottom's, not to bring good news, but to divine Harry Potter's bolt hole. Along with Bella and her men, he tortures the Longbottom's, determined to locate the infant Harry and avenge the Dark Lord. They are unsuccessful, destroying the minds of Neville's parents. What of Neville though? As he is, he's useless, no longer potential `Prophecy Boy' he is simply a contemporary of the boy who lived, similar background and of an age, the closest he will come to fame is by meeting the real McCoy. Ah, there's the leverage! Barty Jnr places Neville under the Imperious curse compelling him to "Find Harry Potter and befriend him. Tell the toad all. Further instructions to follow." An Imperious curse, experienced at such a tender age, leaves Neville's mind confused, the only indication, however, is a poor memory. The DE's are captured but not before they have created a sleeper agent. Years pass. The Longbottom's remain in hospital, kept there by drug dosed sweets lest they expose their compromised son. Neville does indeed find and befriend Harry, he tells Trevor everything. In his fourth year at Hogwart's Neville is once again exposed to Barty Jnr, in the guise of Mad Eye Moony. Barty takes him to his office ostensibly to give him a book but in truth to strengthen and extend his Imperious curse. In the future Neville will learn that Harry is the chosen one and he is not, that Harry is the reason his parents were attacked, they suffered because of Harry and not in defence of their own son. Neville may become resentful he may, provoked by a latent Imperio, betray Harry. This is the cargo onboard MINISUB: Mind Imperioed Neville Inspires Sleeper Underdog Betrayer Will Captain Dungrollin crack open the Bubbly and await Hurricane Jo in the company of Moosming, or must she sink in shame, submerged and sober (a terrible fate me hearties)? From phil at pcsgames.net Sat Jul 9 11:18:19 2005 From: phil at pcsgames.net (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:18:19 -0400 Subject: The MuggleNet questions References: <14ba01c58474$dbd2b860$6600a8c0@phil> Message-ID: <14c501c58477$eda2eee0$6600a8c0@phil> No: HPFGUIDX 132336 >From MuggleNet.com The ULTIMATE Harry Potter Site Ask Jo Contest Winners The "Ask JK Rowling a Question Contest" is officially over and the three winners are as follows: It's stated in book 1 that Dumbledore had 'defeated' 'the dark wizard Grindelwald.' Did Dumbledore defeat him in the sense of kill, or remove him from power, but so he may still be alive?" "The importance of our choices has been stressed over and over again in the books. Why was Lily's choice to sacrifice herself for her son more ' important' in some sense than her husband's choice to sacrifice himself for his son and wife? Apparently James knew he had no fighting chance, so choosing to fight in order to give time to his family to flee, was in fact choosing to die for them. But this didn't seem to offer his wife any magical protection, therefore it seems like a less important sacrifice. Is it because he didn't actually put his body in front of the person he wanted to save that made his death so... second class? Should that matter? The choice that he made was of equal level to the choice his wife made, I think; but not with the same effect? Why?" "If Lord Voldemort encountered a Boggart what would he see?" http://www.mugglenet.com/ From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jul 9 11:18:06 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 11:18:06 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > > I agree with all your analysis davenclaw. Any storyline other than > a "simple" extension of what has been heavily hinted before - R/H and > H/G, would require a great deal of development. With only two books > left (and one of these shorter than OOP) and with the war to > conclude, Voldemort to defeat and a myriad questions/puzzles to be > resolved, it is highly unlikely that JKK would spend the time > necessary to, for example, develop and then resolve a romantic > triangle among the trio. JKR has been known to surprise us in both good and bad ways, but I tend to agree as well. OOTP, whatever one thinks of it, didn't do very much for wrapping up plot points -- in fact it wasn't even much of a start. JKR has left an AWFUL lot for the last two books, and I don't see that there is any real time to introduce yet another major female character and set her up as Harry's love interest, or for subplots as complicated as an inter-trio love triangle. As a matter of fact, I would tend to extend this analysis to a lot of other plot points. I think a lot of things are going to turn out to be simpler and more straight forward than many (especially adult) fans might like. Many would like to see a new love interest for Harry, a deepening of Draco's character, a much more in-depth exploration of Slytherin House, a deepening of the relationship between Harry and Dumbledore, a deepening of the relationship between Harry and Lupin, exploration of Tom Riddle's childhood, further information about the pasts of Dumbledore and McGonnagall, details about Grindlewald, a full analysis of Snape's character and the psychological wellsprings of his attitude, detailed explanations about Harry's parents and their deaths, greater insight into the Dursleys and the way they relate to the wizarding world, explanations about Hermione's parents and their understanding of the Wizarding World, a further analysis of the dynamics of the Weasley family especially with regard to Percy, a true movement for social change at Hogwarts and in the WW in general, detailed pictures of the turmoil at the Ministry particularly around Fudge and Umbridge, a widening of the scope of the narrative to include other wizarding nations, an intense period of psychological insight and maturation for Harry, insight into Neville and Luna's characters and situations, and more Quidditch. Have I left anything out? Surely I have. But the point is that there just won't be time for all that, and in fact not even for most of it. A lot of these points won't be dealt with at all, and many that are dealt with will be done in a very straightforward and (to many) simplistic and obvious manner. JKR never had time to do all that even in the best of worlds, and since OOTP was basically a lot of wheel-spinning in terms of advancing toward ultimate answers, she now only has two books to shoehorn in what's absolutely necessary. > > Further, R/H is even more definitively foreshadowed in the moooovies, > and although I know the cry "they just do whatever they want in > those, nothing to do with canon", I do not for a moment believe that > JKK would have permitted the storyline to become so committed to R/H > if she knows that this would have to be reversed in the remainder of > the series. I think the fandom has a tendency to greatly exaggerate JKR's input into the movie process. Authors, even billionaire authors, don't get to interfere much in productions mounted by major studios (especially when said studios have already acquired all the legal rights they need). Having said that, however, I do think that particular theme in the movies (by which we really mean PoA, as CoS had more Harry/Hermione hints) does accurately reflect the trend in the books. > > Finally, and to me most convincingly, I do not believe romance will > be a major focus of the remaining two books - at most a "light" > sidestory. If that is the case, only the already set up ships R/H > and H/G would be able to be played this way -- any other alternative > would require complexity, exposition and/or unexpected revelations. > Hmmm, I don't know if romance will be all that minor or not. There are multiple ways it could figure heavily in the main storyline (i.e. in tieing up various threads and plot points), particularly if Love does end up being the key to Voldemort's defeat. And certainly the people at Scholastic have implied it's pretty heavy in HBP. Also I think a lot of people put too much stock in JKR's "a little romance" comment. That's merely a figure of speech and could easily mean the exact opposite of what it literally says. All in all, I just don't think we have enough evidence to say romance will be a major factor, but I don't think there's much justification for the opposite, either. Lupinlore From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 12:44:21 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 12:44:21 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132338 > Captain Neri, from his place at the helm of the ELKINS AVENGED, > looks through his ominiculars at the new ship who has the nerve to > invade these dangerous waters. "Man the cannons!" he bellows at his > crew. "Lets find out if the fish of Theory Bay like to eat cat > poo!" "Argh..." There is a spluttering and groaning sound from the bowels of the CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO. Dungrollin (for it is she) staggers on deck. She squints into the sun as the ELKINS AVENGED, all shiny and streamlined swans into view. "Damn. He's got a crew. All I've got's a hangover." > Dungrollin wrote : > > This is the important bit ----> > > 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds > > uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had > > finished breaking through her memory charm (but before he > > disposed of her, obviously).<----- > > Neri: > I think "sounds uncannily like" is a bit of a strong expression > here, since all we know about Bertha's state is Voldy's words: "she > was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless" (GoF, Ch. > 1). Voldy's criteria for Bertha's fitness and usefulness might not > be the same as Bertha's own criteria. Not a problematic point > exactly, but making it the main canon of a new ship several days > before the hurricane strikes me as a bit unsafe. Granted, I'm hardly the person to talk. > "...!" Dung exclaims as a can(n)onball whooshes overhead. She looks darkly at the ELKINS AVENGED. "That was the warning shot, right?" She looks around in agitation, discovers a handy goblet of pepperup potion in the first aid kit, and swallows it. Slightly stunned and smoking gently (but at least more alert) she gazes around at the plywood and insulating tape vessel she has constructed. "I *know* it's rickety, I was the one who lashed it together with spit and string to make it fit its name." As SSSusan so gallantly came to my defence I shall leave this to her. Hurricanes do your worst, I shall remain afloat, clinging to the plank upon which CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO is inscribed, even if the rest of the boat is reduced to kindling. > Dungrollin wrote: > > But what about Crouch Senior? We never saw DD and Crouch > > together, except in the Pensieve, where they hardly had the > > opportunity to give us clues about their relationship. I don't > > necessarily think they particularly liked each other, but they > > may well have shared a good deal of information about fighting > > Voldy. The head of the Order of the Phoenix, and the head of the > > Department of Magical Law Enforcement exchanging information and > > working together. Sounds plausible, right? > > Neri: > Another small problem I see with this is that if DD and Crouch Sr. > worked together, then DD would know (or at least highly suspect) > how Crouch Jr. came by the information about the Longbottoms. So > why did DD say to Harry in the GoF Pensieve chapter that he had no > idea if Crouch Jr. was guilty or not? > A noise like a fire-cracker going off ricochets around the bay. There is a Dumbledore-shaped hole in one of the tea-trays that was commandeered for the port flank of the CROUCHING TIGER. Thankfully the hole is small, and well above the waterline. Dumbledore not knowing whether Crouch Junior was innocent or not is perfectly possible and compatible with the theory. DD probably knows that the DEs tortured their way through the memory charm, and thinks that the Longbottoms have no hope of recovery (FWIW, I hope they don't recover, I like a good tragic past). He swallows Crouch Senior's cover story, that the DEs attacked the Longbottoms because they thought they knew what had happened to Voldemort after GH. Crouch Senior is hardly going to admit that it was his slip of the tongue that put Junior and co on the scent of the Longbottoms, is he? He's set to lose enough from the whole horrible series of events as it is. Junior is protesting his innocence, while Bonkers Bella insists they were trying to find Voldy. Why should DD think Crouch Senior let the info loose? SSSusan twists the knife: Here I tend to be in agreement with Neri. The weakest portion of the CROUCHING theory imo ? which Dungrollin herself admits ["And anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and cobbled the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will be... ahem... correct"] ? is the inclusion of Crouch Sr. WHY would DD have been working with him? Did he ever really trust him enough to have included him in something this important? Dungrollin: Actually, a little tweak and all is well. Crouch Senior not only gets the Longbottoms to agree to have a memory charm, but he agrees to have one himself, having been told at least about the existence of the prophecy (if not the specific wording) by DD too. What he lets slip to his son is that he and the Longbottoms "...had to have memory charms, and it's so strange, isn't it? Because I obviously can't remember why I needed it... leaves one a bit disoriented, you know? Ah well, must get on with some work. You can amuse yourself, can't you, Junior?" That way DD would never assume that it was Crouch Senior who put Junior and the others onto the Longbottoms. > Dungrollin wrote: > > To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and > > Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had > > been placed on Frank and Alice. The rest is all trying to make > > sense of it. > > > > Neri: > If it is found that Frank and Alice are Memory Charmed, then what > about Neville? Either he was MCharmed too (why?!) or his memory > problems are merely psychological with nothing magical about them. > That last possibility, IMO, would come out rather lame. > Has JKR been playing Neville's poor memory since forever only to > tell us in the end that it's *his parents* that received the memory > charm, while Neville himself is actually fine, thanks? Nope, *if* > Frank and Alice are indeed MCharmed, I think it strongly implies > that Neville is Mcharmed too. > Ah, now. You see, if I were patient and thorough and not prone to constructing flimsy craft out of whatever materials were at hand, I could make a good case that Neville's problems are *all* about confidence, and nothing to do with memory charms at all. I think, Neri, that you're possibly a little guilty of accepting a theory (albeit a very convincing one) as canon here, no? You remember when Crouch!Moody told Neville that Professor Sprout had said he was good at Herbology? Do you think Professor Sprout had ever said anything of the kind? No, neither do I. It was simply Crouch!Moody's way of getting the book describing Gillyweed into Harry's dormitory. From that moment on, though, from having had no confidence in anything at all, Neville believes (erroneously) that a *teacher* said that he's good at something. As his confidence in Herbology increases, so do his marks, until Herbology is clearly his best subject. And with a little confidence thus gained, and a bit of fear and determination when the DEs escape Azkaban, his confidence in DADA increases still further. Even McGonagall says that in Transfiguration all he lacks is confidence, she never upbraids him for forgetting incantations. But I don't have my books with me, and I'm not feeling patient or thorough. Anyone else fancy having a crack at it? You don't have to believe it, just argue it... Neri, Snipped: > 4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents > were MCharmed (as I wrote above this would be rather lame plotting IMO). Dungrollin: That's your case? Pah! It only seems a bit rubbish because I can't work out why Who Knew About The Prophecy is going to be important. I just can't quite work out where or how or by whom or when. Or why, really. Whether it's important in terms of the backstory, or important in terms of future events and so on and so forth. > Neri, > getting really fed up with ship biscuits and tuna, and wishing the > hurricane would be here already. Have some little sausages on sticks. I don't seem to be able to make myself eat the last few hundred. By the way, Neri, I've been meaning to ask (and sorry for crossing TBAYs), but how is the VASSAL coping with "In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind?" (JKR's most recent FAQ answer.) Dungrollin Apologising for the delay in responding, but trying to juggle a really very very slow and intermittently active internet connection. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Jul 9 15:19:44 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:19:44 -0000 Subject: How will LV die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132339 aussie: OK, so LV won't die till book #7, but let's have some fun suggesting fatal mistakes. IDEA 1) NORBERT HELPS Norbert the dragon returns and becomes the envy of any wizard that has heard of even 1 of the 12 uses of Dragon's blood. A dozen DE stupify him to draw the blood of an alive dragon (fresher). After taking some scales and other potions sdditives, LV standing triumphantly over Norbert makes the most basic blunder. "Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon" (Hogwarts school moto) Norbert scrathes the itch in his sleep and knocks LV asunder. Someone (Harry?) from OOTP is handy to finish him off. IDEA 2) TRANSFIGURATION SPELL Again Harry is hiding behind stones (like in GOF tombstones) but instead of using AK as LV is trying, he aims above LV's head at some object (a leaf?) and transfigures that into a fridge, Dudley or an equally large heavy item to turn LV into roadkill. IDEA 3) COS TUNNEL Salazar Slytherin dug the Chamber of Secrets to came and go as he pleased. one tunnel leads underneath Hogsmede and can only be accessed by knowing where to apparate to exactly. Any error apparates you into your own grave. OOPS, a loveable clumbsey character caved in the tunnel just before LV tries to use it PS. Dear JKR, feel free to use any of those scenarios aussie_lol From lcs5639 at msn.com Sat Jul 9 14:35:43 2005 From: lcs5639 at msn.com (epicurious2000) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:35:43 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > > > As for Harry, the hints about Ginny are obvious, and I think > something will happen there eventually - I just don't know if it > will last. And, I think there may be a different love interest in > the meantime. > > I think Luna may reveal a crush on someone (I think Ron) but get > over it and either be a non-romantic character or have an > unimportant (story-wise) relationship with some minor character, > like Colin Creevey. I don't think she will play a major role in the > romantic lives of our main characters. > > - davenclaw Davenclaw - Have to disagree with you. There is no indication Harry is aware of Ginny as anything other than Ron's little sister. I think his "little romance" will be Luna, the one person he was able to talk to Sirius about and who made him feel a little better about losing him. JKR has said Luna is her favorite new character and would not have made her so prominent in OOTP to only elminate her in HBP. L From daveshardell at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 15:26:15 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:26:15 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <42CF683D.7060500@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > Actually, I addressed this in another post. Free Will can still be in > play. An individual still 'chooses' to go back in time, and chooses > their actions when they do so. The difficult part is that the effect of > their choice appears to precede -- by our linear perception -- the > making of the choice. > > However, in the greater scheme of Time, looked at as a whole rather than > as a forward-moving line, the choice came 'first' -- or perhaps more > accurately, which came 'first' becomes irrelevant. My whole problem with this approach is that when Harry and Hermione go back in time, they are acting within that time AFTER the event of time- turning, from their perception. You are basically saying that what their actions will be when they go back is not up to them, since in the greater scheme of Time, that time has already passed, so they've already done what they are about to do. I just don't think this makes sense, nor do I think that is what JKR had in mind, at all. What makes sense to me is to consider the linear progress of each person, and Harry and Hermione are acting, as time travelers, AFTER they have time-turned, NOT before. I don't care what Hawking or anyone says about the possibility of time-travel, I think this is the way the story was intended to be read. While I don't think that JKR thought through the notion that there was a different set of events that were changed, and we are now seeing the changed events (from two perspectives), I think that is the consequence of what she HAS written. - davenclaw From daveshardell at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 15:32:05 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:32:05 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132342 I'm reading GoF, and I can't figure out why no one speculates that a student who is "of age" simply threw Harry's name in. Okay, so Moody says that they must have used a confundus charm to trick the GoF into picking four people, so it's less likely that it's a student. But isn't it possible that some 7th year Slytherin threw in Harry's name to put him in danger, and someone else, for their own reasons, tricked the GoF into picking a fourth person? In fact, since Moody says that they must have put Harry's name in with a different school, I'm not sure a charm would have been needed. But then, if they did that, I think it would show up on the piece of paper. Regardless of how Harry's name was pulled, the Age Line itself seems like pretty shoddy security since ANY 17 yr old could have entered ANY other student into the contest! Why didn't Fred & George just beg Angelina to throw their names in? Why didn't Malfoy get a 7th year to put his name in? This seems like a pretty sizeable hole in the story. - davenclaw From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 16:20:30 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:20:30 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132344 > > Dungrollin: > > But what would flesh-eating slugs want with cabbages? Rather > > than "Flesh-eating slug repellant. They're ruining the school > > cabbages" it should surely read "Flesh-eating slug repellant. > > I've lost three toes this week!" > > Ginger: > I think it is more along the lines of, "Had ter get the flesh- > eating slug repellant, the tickling slug repellant on'y had 'em > laughin' and the pummeling slug repellant left a mess. See, > Harry, yer get a good flesh-eating slug repellant and it not only > chases 'em down, but it gets rid o' the dead slug too. Never know > when yer gonna have a mess o' slugs to clean off yer floor or > somethin'. Wanna see 'em? They're really interestin' creatures." > Begging your indulgences (for I am canon-less for the moment). Doesn't Lupin refer to a boggart taking the form of a flesh-eating slug? Otherwise, I'd agree that it could be read thataway. > As long as they leave the dungbeetles alone. > Ginger Dung beetle-eating slugs?! Stop it! You'll give me nightmares... Dungrollin From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 16:23:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:23:18 -0000 Subject: FYI -- Mugglenet has posted high-res version of the back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132345 SPOILER************************************************************** ************** --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prncssme" > > Princess Sara: > > I think it's supposed to be Ron, not Harry, especially with the > long thin nose and the reddish hair. Which would explain the lack of glasses. I'm also thinking that the "mystery student" behind Ron could be a Patil twin...or Dean Thomas. I'm thinking Patil girl because the face seems slightly feminine to me but I will admit that >my first thought was Dean. ****************************************************************** Tonks: I also think that it is Ron, Hermione and Ginny. First Ginny looks somewhat the same as she did on the cover of CS. And the facial features of the girl on the right(IMO Ginny) and the boy are simular, meaning that they are from the same family. Now my first thought was that the boy was Bill. But there looks like hints of others there too, not just the figure in the back, so now I think that we are seeing memebers of the DA. Often this artist put bits and pieces of story into the art, so we may not be able to think of this as one scene. Who cast the dark mark? Are members of the DA off to Hogsmead and on their way back? Course this would be against what I just said above, if on the way back they saw the darkmark over Hogwarts. It would also not be looking well for my good friend (love of my life) Albus, if that Darkmark is over Hogwarts. Oh, I AM going to be depressed, very depressed. Maybe they should give out boxes of Kleenix with each book. Tonks_op From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 9 16:49:03 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:49:03 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I'm reading GoF, and I can't figure out why no one speculates that a > student who is "of age" simply threw Harry's name in. Goblet of Fire - UK paperback - page 243 - 'The Four Champions' "Did you ask an older student to put it [Harry's name] into the Goblet of Fire for you?" said Professor Dumbledore, ignoring Snape, "No" said Harry vehemently. Karen From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 9 17:06:26 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:06:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: The Age Line Message-ID: <27.75ca4986.30015e12@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132347 In a message dated 7/9/2005 12:50:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk writes: Goblet of Fire - UK paperback - page 243 - 'The Four Champions' "Did you ask an older student to put it [Harry's name] into the Goblet of Fire for you?" said Professor Dumbledore, ignoring Snape, "No" said Harry vehemently. -------------------- Sherrie here: That just shows that Harry didn't WILLINGLY have his name put in - it doesn't say that someone (e.g., that 17-year-old Slytherin) didn't put Harry's name in without his knowledge or consent. Sherrie "Some kid a hundred years from now is going to get interested in the Civil War and want to see these places. He's going to go down there and be standing in a parking lot. I'm fighting for that kid." - Brian Pohanka, 1990 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 17:10:39 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:10:39 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: <02c101c5842d$a54feac0$1502a8c0@april> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132348 You must also email HBP contest entries to Tiger or you aren't really entered. You must also email HBP contest entries to Tiger or you aren't really entered. You must also email HBP contest entries to Tiger or you aren't really entered. You must also email HBP contest entries to Tiger or you aren't really entered. You must also email HBP contest entries to Tiger or you aren't really entered. TK -- TigerPatronus From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 17:35:31 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:35:31 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132349 Davenclaw wrote: "I just don't think this makes sense, nor do I think that is what JKR had in mind, at all." (snip) "I don't care what Hawking or anyone says about the possibility of time-travel, I think this is the way the story was intended to be read. While I don't think that JKR thought through the notion that there was a different set of events that were changed, and we are now seeing the changed events (from two perspectives), I think that is the consequence of what she HAS written." Del replies: Can we just all agree to disagree? You think our theories don't make sense, we think they do. You think the story is meant to be read in a certain way, we think it can be read that way but that it isn't necessarily the only way. You think JKR didn't think through some notions, we think something might be off with what her characters say but that the events are very coherent. So now that we've all exposed our points of view, let's just agree to the obvious: that there are many ways to understand the same words and that, in the absence of a supreme authority, none of those ways can be definitely declared as The One Right Way. OK :-) ? In particular, I am slightly hurt at being told that what I think "doesn't make sense", or that the way I read the story is not the way JKR "intended" for me to read it. Even though you might be right... ;-) Del From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 18:10:13 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 18:10:13 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132350 Dungrollin looks around in surprise. On the shore, Saraquel seems to be taking an interest in the new hotchpotch craft. Saraquel wrote: Hey, I like that explanation of the Longbottoms state, but I don't think that Crouch was the one to perform the original memory charm. I think it would probably have been DD. and later: I'm not convinced that the Longbottoms have a big secret (well information that DD doesn't already know) to give away. Dungrollin: Well, from the alarming way it bends and creaks on the waves, the CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO is a very flexible vessel. In fact, in order to have a hammock reserved it's really only necessary that you like the name. Though agreeing with the two points above certainly help. Have a drink. Dungrollin is astonished (she didn't think anyone would take much notice of the CROUCHING TIGER) to see a stylish MINISUB pull up alongside, with a thunk. "Careful," she mutters, "I can't take too much jostling, or I'll fall apart." A familiar voice, that of Mooseming, calls "Parley!" Dungrollin leans over to get a better look. "What ho, Mooseming!" > Mooseming is not empty handed however, the Sailor's Code > demands fair exchange, only Captain Dungrollin can decide > if her goods are acceptable. What does she store in her > hold to tempt such an esteemed skipper? Nothing. She comes > only with the travellers standby, a story. Dungrollin listens to the tale with interest. "...In the future Neville will learn that Harry is the chosen one and he is not, that Harry is the reason his parents were attacked, they suffered because of Harry and not in defence of their own son. Neville may become resentful he may, provoked by a latent Imperio, betray Harry. "This is the cargo onboard MINISUB: Mind Imperioed Neville Inspires Sleeper Underdog Betrayer." Will Captain Dungrollin crack open the Bubbly and await Hurricane Jo in the company of Moosming, or must she sink in shame, submerged and sober (a terrible fate me hearties)? "It's rather good, isn't it?" remarks Dungrollin (please, this is a very informal craft, no need for titles). "And sobriety is for the weak of liver. Have some Champagne, I didn't manage to get through it all." Mooseming's eyes brighten as she accepts a glass, while noting that Dungrollin has moved onto the Firewhisky, and that her eyes keep returning nervously to a Dumbledore-shaped hole that has been incompetently taped up. Dung looks jealously at the nice collection of genuine BANGs Mooseming has assembled. "I certainly can't see any holes in the MINISUB, though it's not really compatible with the CROUCHING TIGER. Perhaps we should set up a flotilla, all the Longbottom/Memory Charm theories huddled together for the storm. Someone's bound to survive, and we can all hop on board as our theories are sunk, one by one." Dungrollin swigs again at the firewhisky. Her words are becoming slurred. "...Or are you all going to hide in the harbour? Call it arrogance, call it foolhardy, I'm staying right in the middle of the bay, waiting for the lightning! Iss an adventure, innit?" Dungrollin Nothing is ever a complete failure; it can always serve as a bad example. From kndrtchr at earthlink.net Sat Jul 9 17:47:57 2005 From: kndrtchr at earthlink.net (Rebecca Jasman) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:47:57 -0400 Subject: SPOILER : HBP cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132351 SPOILER SPACE I hope that was enough. Patrick wrote: "So far it seems only Death Eaters know how to conjure the dark mark, though I doubt it's terribly difficult to learn. But remember, the dark mark inspires fear because it was associated with murders. Draco and his gang don't seem skilled enough to go around killing fellow students with impunity." Becca: I, too, don't think that the Dark Mark would be difficult to learn. After all, Wormtail would have been able to conjure it, and we have been told several times that he was not that great of a wizard. It is a terrorist tool. The send it up inorder to create terror in the world. I could easily see Draco, or one of his gang, using it to that end. I don't think that they are going to in the next book, but they are capable of using terrorist tactics. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 18:38:49 2005 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Theories WAS: Re: Spare Wands In-Reply-To: <20050706030225.26394.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050709183849.93503.qmail@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132352 Madam Marozi wrote: Yes, and in POA, Sirius uses both Ron and Snape's wands. Peter uses Lupin's wand. In COS, Gilderoy fully expected to be able to use Ron's wand (it backfired because it was broken). All of these were taken against the owner's will. I just don't believe in an exclusive "relationship" between wizard and wand. I think it's more in the nature of an affinity. A particular wand may "resonate" more than others with a particular wizard, and that advantage may be especially important when you're a student first learning. Of course, this doesn't explain the lack of spare wands. But I don't think an exclusive bond is the explanation. Griffin 782002 now: Undoubtedly since the first time I read about a wizard using successfully someone else's wand, made me wonder about it. But I think in the end, it has to do with a wizard or witch's abilities or whether someone's magical abilities are complete or not. Pettigrew didn't seem very inteligent but perhaps he is more than it seems since he managed to fool everyone about the spy matter or divise that plan with which he framed Sirius (I don't believe in ESE Lupin or ESE Sirius). Griffin782002 ____________________________________________________ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 19:29:37 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:29:37 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 6 days left -- email entry to Tiger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132355 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com*and to the newsgroup. You must email your entry to TigerPatronus to be entered in the contest. You will receive an email confirmation of your entry. Deadline: Friday, July 15, 2005, at 12:00 pm (noon) EDT. Note that is *noon.* Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. Predictions that only describe the covers are worth no points. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or another superlative title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 19:52:24 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:52:24 -0000 Subject: SPOILER : HBP cover. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132356 > > Interesting thought. So far it seems only Death Eaters know how to > conjure the dark mark, though I doubt it's terribly difficult to > learn. But remember, the dark mark inspires fear because it was > associated with murders. Draco and his gang don't seem skilled enough > to go around killing fellow students with impunity. Wasn't there mention that it was more like something that they 'wouldn't know of' to have learned of it, rather than it just being difficult? Like when they were accusing Harry of having conjoured it during GOF? (Or was it Hermione they were accusing for her knowledge of how it worked? *sigh*) Then again, a house elf Winky was accused of having done it, so either theirs something about house elf magic, (ok, so she had a wand- and Dobby can knock Malfoy for a good one Without one, but I'm just confused.) So either it's just rare for someone to know it, or it's simply very difficult. Chys From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 19:56:33 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:56:33 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- Minion recruitment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132357 Hello All, As soon as the HPfGU list opens up after the HBP moratorium, I will be recruiting minions to evaluate the HBP prediction contest entries. Qualifications for minions: 16 years old or above, dependable, finished reading HBP at least once, and just wild about Harry. If you sign up as a minion, you will receive a rubric (a very explicit guide about how to grade the questions and how much each answer is worth) and a packet of 10 entries. I estimate that familiarizing yourself with the rubric and grading the 10 entries should take no more than an hour and half and will probably be more like an hour. When you complete the grading, email the entries back to TK. That's it. You may be asked if you would like to grade another packet if there are packets left, but you are under no obligation to do so. You have already fulfilled your part of the bargain. Aloha. You will not be identified as a minion on the entry. You are anonymous. Tiger will take all blame and arbitrate all disputes, ruthlessly. In the event of a dispute about the grading, you will not be blamed nor even identified. Tiger will reevaluate the *entire* entry and that grade will be final (and probably more ruthless). Remember, as a minion, you cannot be questioned. Your answers are ruthless, arbitrary, and final. In the filk identifying the contest winner, minions will be identified and thanked profusely. Example of rubric: Let's say that, in HBP, both DD and Molly W die. Other sundry smallish characters like Sturgis Podmore also die. The first question reads "Who is the *most* major character who will die?" (worth 5 points.) * If the answer is DD: 5 points. * If the answer is Molly: 4 points. * If the answer is Sturgis Podmore: 1 pt. * If the answer is Lupin (who did not die): 0 pts. * If the answer states more than 1 character, individual determinations will be made. Double-guessing 2 correct answers may earn extra credit. One right and one wrong answer will be less than 100% because the person took 2 shots at getting it right. (I realize that's draconian, but these are the compulsory questions, and there are 5 open-ended questions.) Two wrong answers will be worth 0. If the answer is DD and Molly: 7 points. If the answer is DD and Lupin: 3 points. If the answer is Molly and Lupin: 2 points. That's it. Please consider volunteering for minion status after the moratorium is lifted. TK -- TigerPatronus From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 9 19:57:55 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:57:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationships Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132358 In a message dated 7/8/2005 3:43:37 PM Central Standard Time, BrwNeil at aol.com writes: None of those things were obvious to me. I find it strange that a writer that keeps everything else so skillfully hidden would make relationships so obvious that we would most certainly see them. JKR even said (Aug 15 2004 -- Edinburg Book Festival) that she wasn't going to reveal the final pairings . .that she couldn't. . . and "you will have to read between the lines on that one". I know that many people think that the romances are going to be minor and light hearted. .and a part of me agrees. However another part thinks that love is going to play a bigger part in the series. So far its saved Harry's rear twice. Once in Godric's Hollow and his mother's sacrifice. Once in the MOM when LV possessed him. I also have a hard time thinking that Harry's going to kill LV. The prophecy says 'vanquish" and that's not necesssarily the same thing as killing. While I think that Harry has the skill to pull off an Unforgiveable Curse I don't think he has the mindset to do so. The example would be the Curciatus that he attempted with Bella. Certainly he had enough motivation. .and probably a large dose of hatred towards her. . but he didn't *like* hurting her enough to pull it off properly. Do I ship? Most certainly I do. Am I confident that my ship will prevail? I most certainly am not. The one thing that I am concerned about is that we still won't have any answers to the shipping question at the end of book six and will go through this debate for another two or three years. I am about 60 percent confident that my ship will sail but I recognise the possibilty that it could just as easily sink with one stroke of a pen in HBP. I do think that we will have a clearer idea of what might happen Ship-wise but still not a definitive sailing. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marshamoon at charter.net Sat Jul 9 21:30:24 2005 From: marshamoon at charter.net (Marsha Holland) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:30:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest -- Minion recruitment References: Message-ID: <001401c584cd$6ca14e80$0dcfcf18@Marshamoon> No: HPFGUIDX 132359 Are you taking minions who've entered the contest? ----- Original Message ----- From: tigerpatronus To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 2:56 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest -- Minion recruitment Hello All, As soon as the HPfGU list opens up after the HBP moratorium, I will be recruiting minions to evaluate the HBP prediction contest entries. Qualifications for minions: 16 years old or above, dependable, finished reading HBP at least once, and just wild about Harry. If you sign up as a minion, you will receive a rubric (a very explicit guide about how to grade the questions and how much each answer is worth) and a packet of 10 entries. I estimate that familiarizing yourself with the rubric and grading the 10 entries should take no more than an hour and half and will probably be more like an hour. When you complete the grading, email the entries back to TK. That's it. You may be asked if you would like to grade another packet if there are packets left, but you are under no obligation to do so. You have already fulfilled your part of the bargain. Aloha. You will not be identified as a minion on the entry. You are anonymous. Tiger will take all blame and arbitrate all disputes, ruthlessly. In the event of a dispute about the grading, you will not be blamed nor even identified. Tiger will reevaluate the *entire* entry and that grade will be final (and probably more ruthless). Remember, as a minion, you cannot be questioned. Your answers are ruthless, arbitrary, and final. In the filk identifying the contest winner, minions will be identified and thanked profusely. Example of rubric: Let's say that, in HBP, both DD and Molly W die. Other sundry smallish characters like Sturgis Podmore also die. The first question reads "Who is the *most* major character who will die?" (worth 5 points.) * If the answer is DD: 5 points. * If the answer is Molly: 4 points. * If the answer is Sturgis Podmore: 1 pt. * If the answer is Lupin (who did not die): 0 pts. * If the answer states more than 1 character, individual determinations will be made. Double-guessing 2 correct answers may earn extra credit. One right and one wrong answer will be less than 100% because the person took 2 shots at getting it right. (I realize that's draconian, but these are the compulsory questions, and there are 5 open-ended questions.) Two wrong answers will be worth 0. If the answer is DD and Molly: 7 points. If the answer is DD and Lupin: 3 points. If the answer is Molly and Lupin: 2 points. That's it. Please consider volunteering for minion status after the moratorium is lifted. TK -- TigerPatronus Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Adult education Organizational culture Harry potter book ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 20:17:25 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:17:25 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132360 Steve wrote: > Don't get me wrong, the wizard world like any society has the basics; > you don't steal, you don't harm, you don't kill. But I don't think it > goes much beyond that. In a sense, a very general sense, the wizard > world is a frontier society. They have just enough law to keep general > order, and beyond that it's every man for himself. That's not really > such a bad thing since most people are honest and really want to live > a safe orderly life. > > Keep in mind that all law enforcement we've seen in the books relates > to magic. Aurors chase dark wizard and control people practicing the > dark arts. Magical Law Enforcement is related to the Statue of > Secrecy, and dealing with magical accidents. We see no general > criminal law enforcement body. That apect seems to be left up to the > general honesty of the wizard population. zgirnius writes: Interesting post. The laws of the WW are definitely an interesting topic. I agree with you that it seems that the WW authorities do not interfere much in minor criminal matters, or matters or civil law, from what we have seen, except where magic is involved. But I would not say that the WW we have seen has a particularly order-loving or honest population. I think your description of the WW as like a frontier society is right on...for example, we know in OotP, Mundungus Fletcher comes across some cauldrons which "fell of a broom" (which is why he's away when the dementors attack Harry). I think that if the owner of the broom were to show up and turn Mundungus into a toad temporarily and repossess the cauldrons, Magical Law Enforcement would not care...vigilantism would be tolerated as long as Muggles were not invovled, and noone used an Unforgivable curse. Maybe not everyone has a gun...but they sure do all have wands! steve again: > So the short version is, in regard to resolving Sirius's Will and > Estate, it's simply a matter of Dumbledore and others convincing the > court that Harry should get the estate, rather than heavy reliance on > specific applied law. > > For the final point, I still say that in the absents of a handwritten > Will, Harry has no legal foundation at all, and the estate is then > resolved among the remain close relatives of the Black Family. If > 'eldest son' is given precedence, and a Will exists or Sirius > expressed his wishes to witnesses, then it's a fight between Harry and > Draco over the estate. A fight that I think will make a great subplot. zgirnius: I actually think that the issue of Sirius' estate has an additional complication. As far as I can tell from the books, the estate consists of two major parts: the account at Gringott's Bank, and the Black family home at 12 Grimmauld Place. If Sirius has not left any instructions with the bank, this is something I could see going to Draco Steve, here I take your word for the fact that he would be the closest male heir. Was Narcissa Malfoy, nee Black, the eldest of the three sisters? I do not recall the Black family tree in detail. However, I do not think the family home will ever end up in the WW's version of probate court. I believe that the various enchantments on it (Unplottable, the Secret Keeper thing, etc.) mean that noone outside the OotP can even get to it...so how could they claim it? After all, if the WW authorities had any way at all to get to it, this would certainly have been among the first places they would have checked when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, and they would continue to keep an eye on it, making it an unsuitable secret HQ. So I conclude that noone CAN find it now (not even someone like Narcissa, who probably spent a lot of time there at a certain point in her life.) From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 22:18:18 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:18:18 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- Tiger's entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132361 Imagine that, I'm entering my own contest. I'm too type-A to resist. Minion recruitment begins next week. Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Luna. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A new character, who is a member of the British royal family and whose parents are a wizard and a muggle, enrolls at Hogwarts (like Prince William went to Eton). 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an Unspeakable in the Dept. of Mysteries, researching Time, Love, and immortality. She would not give Voldy these secrets (thus "defying" him.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character who is useless like Lockhart but neither a servant of Voldy like Quirrelmort nor evil him/herself like Umbridge, probably female, who drones on and on and is boring. One lecture will be about something like Melting. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione. (Please JKR! Hermione! We are all Hermione-geeks inside, and we want the hero to love us because we love him!) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ancient Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9. Five Predictions: 1. There is a wedding, probably Bill and Fleur. Umbridge or Percy try to arrest the bride and groom. The bride and groom escape using two invisibility cloaks. 2. Harry does not get into NEWT-level DADA (remember Umbridge's evil grin at the end of Harry's OWLs?), and he is mortified, but he and three others (Ron, Hermione, and Neville) take special DADA lessons from Dumbledore. 3. Fawkes is instrumental in the preparation of a vital and secret potion. 4. With Hermione's help, the House Elves are liberated from the congenital Imperius Curse that they have long been enslaved under. The Hogwarts' Elves stay loyal to Dumbledore and emerge from the walls when they are desperately needed. 5. Near the end of the book, Harry and the DA launch a direct offensive against Voldy and the DE. When it goes horribly, disastrously wrong, Harry fakes his own death and hides in Dumbledore's office and the Room of Requirement. Extra predictions, worth no credit, only bragging rights: Professor Sinistra (Astronomy) is related to Sirius Black. She inherits 12 Grimmauld Place. Someone who has been kissed by a Dementor gets his soul back. Three new spells or other magic: SANITAS. NIX. HASTA. (Health. Snow. Lance.) Harry goes back to the MoM, specifically to the Planets room, and the Sun in the center of the planets is very bright and reflects like a hall of mirrors. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 9 22:26:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:26:17 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: <27.75ca4986.30015e12@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/9/2005 12:50:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > karenabarker at y... writes: > > Goblet of Fire - UK paperback - page 243 - 'The Four Champions' > > "Did you ask an older student to put it [Harry's name] into the Goblet > of Fire for you?" said Professor Dumbledore, ignoring Snape, > "No" said Harry vehemently. > > > -------------------- Sherrie: > That just shows that Harry didn't WILLINGLY have his name put in - it > doesn't say that someone (e.g., that 17-year-old Slytherin) didn't put Harry's name > in without his knowledge or consent. Geoff: But aren't you forgetting something? 'Moody's face was suddenly lit with an insane smile. "Tell me he told them that I, I alone remained faithful... prepared to risk everything to deliver to him the one thing he wanted above all... you" "You didn't... it - it can't be you..." "Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire under the name of a different school? I did."' (GOF "Veritaserum" pp.586-87 UK edition) From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 23:06:09 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:06:09 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" > Max responds: > The fact of the matter is, Cho dominated Harry's romantic view scape > for the past three books. There was no chance of another girl giving > him butterflies. With Cho now seemingly out of the picture we have no > idea who might attract his attention next. I would agree. Where we apparently disagree is that I think it widen's Harrys and JKR's choices while you think it narrows them. As somone who likes to write, it seems like Ginny would be the most boring choice of a LI for Harry. She's just another Weasley and just another Gryffindor. No spice. Somewho who could show us the world in a different way to look at the world like Luna, or a different house like Susan, or even a different mindset like an unknown slytherin girl seems like a much more interesting way to go. > What makes the most sense to many readers though, is that the 'next > girl' will be someone whose personality we are already fairly familiar > with. There are only two more books. The story arc will need to start > consolidating and winding towards the conclusion. Imo, it is doubtful > that Rowling will introduce yet another female character for us to get > to know when we have three perfectly good possibilities already > developed and present. A Harry romance with anyone other than Ginny, > Luna or Hermione(or even Cho, for that matter)would seem to the reader > like he's being paired with a stranger. I think the fact that Luna has become a dark horse contender for Harry's affections after one book and a handfull of scenes with him speaks to the fact that a well drawn character, no matter when introduced, could be satisfactory LI for Harry. Personally, as much as I like the idea of Harry/Luna I am beginning to think that Luna is going to play a strong role in the Ron/Hermione romance. I can easily see her and her seemly obvious crush on Ron as the catalyst that gets those two off their behinds and in the broomcloset where all that sexual tension belongs :) > Max responds: > > I suppose it's all a matter of opinion, but I just don't see it. I > think JKR could convincingly portray an H/G relationship without pages > of agonizing exposition with various members of the Weasley family. > It's not like he's some stranger that the Weasleys would want to get > to know. They're already all quite comfortable with him. I dated my best friends sister once. Trust me when I say that dating someones sister or daughter is a whole different animal of trust. And I also think that Harry insecure enough around women that he might *think* it would be a big problem, even if it isn't one to the Weasley's. > Max responds: > > From the story arc point of view the question is not - how long did it > take Harry to develop a crush on Cho - but how long was the crush > developed in terms of the storyline? I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Look at how young Harry was when the crust started. A shrimpy 13 year old is going to take a long time to screw up the courage to ask out the pretty, older, and popular athlete girl. I would hope that a sixteen year old Harry Potter would be able to move a whole lot faster. There is > simply not enough time with the story winding down to repeat a similar > scenario. Therefore, it will need to be someone for whom the > groundwork has already been laid. Maybe you are right. I do not dismiss the possibility of a H/G romance, I just think it would be a mistake. I also think that we are going to get the answer to that one way or another in the next book. Ron's not at all subtle hint at the end of OOTP about who he thinks Ginny should pair with could be another in a long line of end of book hints about the themes of the next book. Of course since Harry missed the hint entirely, my faith maintains :) phoenixgod2000 From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Jul 9 23:05:38 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:05:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Precition contest References: <1120947502.1736.76070.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c584da$bc99f330$41a1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 132364 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Also Dumbledore. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was developing a secret potion using the Philosopher's Stone. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, the one described as lion-like. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Lucius Malfoy, who will somehow place Imperious Curses on all the right people and buy his way in, along with a lot of gold. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, thanks entirely to Snape not being able to peer over his shoulder during his O.W.L. and much to Snape's dismay. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Five Predictions: 1. Harry gets his Seeker position back, Ron remains Keeper and becomes Captain of the team, Ginny becomes a Chaser. 2. Lucius Malfoy & co. "escape" from Azkaban to rejoin Voldemort. 3. Harry discovers that Dobby was originally his parents house-elf. 4. We find out what Snape's really been up to, and it isn't spying on Voldemort. 5. Harry will take private lessons with Dumbledore, a much more intense version of DADA. Richelle From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 23:39:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050709233947.93042.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132365 Phoenixgod Wrote: ...edited... She's [Ginny] just another Weasley and just another Gryffindor. No spice. Somewho who could show us the world in a different way to look at the world like Luna, or a different house like Susan, or even a different mindset like an unknown slytherin girl seems like a much more interesting way to go. Juli now: I agree 100% with you, I just don't think that Harry and Ginny are a good couple, I think Ginny's just *my best friend's sister*, he wouldn't get involved with her out of respect to Ron and the other Weasleys, and Ginny seems over Harry (Hermione says so in GoF). I like your idea about a new Slytherin girl, this new girl is the *good Slytherin* everyone's been waiting for, she'll show Harry that not all Slytherins are alike, that they aren't all evil, just like all Ravenclaws aren't smart, or all Gryffindors aren't brave. I think Harry will *meet* her before even going to Hogwarts, she could be a distant cousin of Sirius', or something like that, he falls for her before knowing she's a Slytherin, he tries to break up with her just because her house, but then, thanks to Hermione he realizes she's *The One*, and they live happily ever after - or as happy as one can be in the middle of a war. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 23:56:58 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:56:58 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 7 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132366 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2,Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Old Lion Guy--New DADA teacher and/or person brought in to coach Harry in Occlumrncy and Dark Lord Demolition. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She set up her little booby-trap for Voldy before hand. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The HBP. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. There will be a Luna->Ron->Hermione->Harry->Ginny->Neville romantic farce as a subplot. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Someone who is bad news for Harry and the order. Probably a crypto-Death Eater. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Some sort of Scrying device. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? He'll be tutored in the subject. Most likely by Dumbledore. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): There will be a fight over Sirius Black's estate. It will provide Draco with one more grievance against Harry. Ron and/or Harry will be coerced into taking Divination with Firenze. (He must have been hired for some other reason than to annoy Umbridge) Hermione's parents will object to her returning to Hogwarts. They will be persuaded to allow her back anyways. The injuries Ron received from the brains will be important. It will be revealed that Neville was the victim of a botched Obliviate Charm, probably in a misguided attempt to erase the trauma of the attack on his parents. As he overcomes it, he will become a much better student (We're already seeing signs that his memory is improving--he never lost Trevor this year.) The new wand will help, too. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 00:11:20 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:11:20 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > > Steve wrote: > >..., the wizard world is a frontier society. They have just enough > >law to keep general order, and beyond that it's every man for > >himself. That's not really such a bad thing since most people are > >honest and really want to live a safe orderly life. > > > > ... We see no general criminal law enforcement body. That apect > > seems to be left up to the general honesty of the wizard > > population. > > zgirnius writes: > ... But I would not say that the WW we have seen has a particularly > order-loving or honest population. I think your description of the > WW as like a frontier society is right on.... > bboyminn: Well, to some extent, I was just playing on the common phrase 'law and order'. While I think that wizards are generally law abiding, remembering that their law is very basic, and while they do have an orderly society, it is at that same time very loose and somewhat chaotic. Again, it's that frontier society mentality. In the frontier town of Dodge City, an orderly day was a day when no one got shot. Just like Dodge City, everyone over the age of 11 is armed. It's an EXTREMELY good day in the wizard world if it passes with no one getting cursed. Which, by the way, I think would be next to impossible. Armed, free, and not to closely monitored citizens tend to meter out their own justice. Unlike Dodge City gunfighters, wizards have a wide range of non-lethal curses available to them. > > steve again: > > So the short version is, in regard to resolving Sirius's Will and > > Estate, it's simply a matter of Dumbledore and others convincing > > the court that Harry should get the estate, rather than heavy > > reliance on specific applied law. > > > > ... If 'eldest son' is given precedence, and a Will exists or > > Sirius expressed his wishes to witnesses, then it's a fight > > between Harry and Draco over the estate. ... > zgirnius: > .... As far as I can tell from the books, the estate > consists of two major parts: the account at Gringott's Bank, and > the Black family home at 12 Grimmauld Place. If Sirius has not left > any instructions with the bank, this is something I could see going > to Draco. Steve, here I take your word for the fact that he would be > the closest male heir. Was Narcissa Malfoy, nee Black, the eldest > of the three sisters? I do not recall the Black family tree in > detail. > bboyminn: Actually, it's more complicated than that. We have two separate estates; the personal estate of Sirius Black, and the historical Black Family Estate. There could be restictions on the nature and disposition of that Black Family estate. These are referred to as 'entailments'. Sirius Black's personal estate is likely to be unentailed; no restrictions. Sirius's personal estate would consist of the money left to him by his uncle, and any money he may have accumulated from his personal efforts or his personal investments. Since his uncle was able to leave the money to Sirius, that implies that the money was originally unentailed. This may or may not include a flat somewhere in London. Sirius said when he inherited the money from his uncle, that he got a place of his own. Many people have interpreted that to mean he bought a place, but it's possible that he rented it, and it's also possible, if he owned it, he lost it for non-payment of taxes while he was in prison. Either way, I'm thinking Sirius' vault money that was used to pay for Harry's Firebolt Broom, came from Sirius's personal money, not his family money. On another issue, since in OLD English Common Law, inheritance by the eldest son (eldest male relative) was the default, it represents a strong enough legal precendent that Sirius would have inherited the Black Family Estate even though he was disowned and a prisoner at the time. Being the eldest son gave Sirius a very strong legal right to take control of the estate; far stonger than any other living relative of the Black Family. So, upon inheriting the Black Estate, Sirius would gain control of the family bank accounts and family property. Although, I think it is safe to assume that since Sirius was in prison, all aspects of the Black Estate essentially laid dormant. Further, given the animosity between Sirius and his parents, I think Sirius would have to be EXTREMELY desperate before he would use any money or property belonging the the family estate. On the issue of Draco, Narcissa's status and position in the family means nothing, since males are given preference, it's the fact that Draco is the only (known) living male who still has Black blood flowing in his veins that makes Draco the next likely heir. Again, I am operating under the assumption that the wizard world adheres to the OLD historic traditional Common Law principle of the oldest male getting everything, a principle that while not as strong as it used to be, still comes into play in the modern world. Later Common Law and modern law do not necessarily follow this principle unless there are specific entailments attached to a will, land, title, etc... Also, now in modern times it is much easier to break restricting entailments. In the past, they could restict an estate forever, though more likely for several centuries or several generations. > zgirnius writes: > However, I do not think the family home will ever end up in the WW's > version of probate court. I believe that the various enchantments on > it ... mean that no one outside the OotP can even get to it...so how > could they claim it? bboyminn: What you say is true, but as an illustration, just because I can't find my car keys, doesn't mean they aren't here somewhere. The point is that the Black Family home has probably been there for generations, and the Blacks were a rich prominent purblood family. People in the wizard world know their house exists even if they can't find it. Also, while deep down they may know of its existance, after many year of the Black family's absents from the wizard world, I suspect a majority of people have forgotten about them. Certainly, the remaining Black family female cousin know of the houses existance. Again, they know it exist, even if they don't know where it is. > zgirnius writes: > After all, if the WW authorities had any way at all to get to it, > this would certainly have been among the first places they would > have checked when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, ... bboyminn: At some point, I'm sure they consider that possibility, but Sirius would have to be pretty stupid to return to his family home in London while he was the most hunted man in all of Great Britian. We know Sirius's forefather placed every kind of enchantment on the house, but I'm guessing those were muggle protections and general magical security protections, but I don't think the house was completely hidden from wizards. Protected from them, but not necessarily hidden from them. However, once Dumbledore put the Secret Keeper Charm on the house, not even a wizard could find it unless Dumbledore told them where it was. Overall, I think the Ministry is just too scatter brained to think of staking out the Black Mansion. Once Dumbledore reformed the Order, then Shacklebolt was heading the investigation and spreading misinformation about Sirius's whereabouts, which meant the Black House was safe. Review of Key points- -Frontier World - I really see the wizard world as a frontier. Their non-magic criminal laws are very basic, and enforcement of non-magical law is very thin. -I think the wizard world is likely to conform to old legal traditions like 'eldest male inherits all'. -The courts are not so much ruled by the letter of the law, as they are ruled by who can make the best argument in their own favor. Very unfair, especially when the common man does not have an advocate in the court to speak for him and protect his rights. Consider how screwed Harry would have been if Dumbledore hadn't shown up. -I can't imagine how the next two books can NOT address the disposition of the Black Family and Sirius's personal estates. That said, because there are only two books, I think the conflict will be set up on page, but from that point on, it will occur off page. On page, we will simply see the increased tension between Harry and Draco over this issue. -A slightly related point - How do wizards deal with property taxes? Malfoy manor, I'm lead to believe, is a pretty significant mansion in Wiltshire. How does Malfoy manage to hide that from the taxman? How did the Black family deal with the taxman? I just don't see the government conveniently forgetting about significant real estate like this. And what happens when street construction, or whatever, forces the government to re-survey Grimmauld Place? How do the surveyer explain to their boss, that a big chunk of London's prime real estate has vanished from the face of the earth? Just curious. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From renatak2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 02:10:09 2005 From: renatak2 at yahoo.com (Nancy Kroohs) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: <20050710021010.89002.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132368 Must give this a try, even if my Divination skills are worse than Hermione's. > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore will be heading off for his next great adventure. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe > more.) Godric Gryffindor. Boring, I know. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was instrumental in turning Snape away from the Death Eaters. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape gets his chance when Dumbledore can't find anyone else to do the job. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Her-mi-o-ne, your name is a mel-o-dy ... Um, yeah. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve left by the Founders. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Since JKR can't do maths, this could work out to anything from 2 to 20. I say he passes everything but Divination, History of Magic, and the Astronomy Practical, if that's split into two parts. If one part, he passes Astronomy. Let's say 7, if a flat number is needed. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. Petunia will perform accidental magic. 2. Harry will get some information on the future from Dolores Umbridge, whose punishment from the centaurs was to be shown what's coming. 3. Narcissa Malfoy will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place, thus forcing the Order to move elsewhere. 4. Ron never really had much of a crush on Hermione; it was all a misunderstanding. This will be revealed when Hermione out of sheer frustration demands that Ron ask her out, only to be met with an incredulous look and "Are you completely mental?" (Hey, a girl can hope, right?) 5. Hufflepuff will finally win a House Cup, but no one will care after Dumbledore dies. Poor Hufflepuff. Ren __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 03:16:52 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:16:52 -0000 Subject: How will LV die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > aussie: > OK, so LV won't die till book #7, but let's have some fun suggesting > fatal mistakes. > > What a fun idea! I'll try my hand at it. Idea 1: Because of Hermione's SPEW, the house elves go on strike. Each house has to take a day in the kitchen. Neville, who is exceptionally good at herbology by now, tries his hand at cooking. Unfortunately, that is the day LV and the DEs invade Hogwarts. LV, in his usual patronizing way, takes a sarcastic bite of Neville's bread pudding. The rest, as they say, is history... Idea 2: Petunia, who deep down is ticked about her sister being killed, grabs Harry's wand and, in her first act of magic, tries to AK LV. Vernon, who is completely shocked by what he sees, loses control of his car and flattens LV next to the lawn gnomes. Idea 3: LV realizes that using Harry's blood was a very bad thing. In order to keep his transformation complete, he turns to his loyal potions expert, Severus Snape. As he swallows the potion, Snape smugly informs him of his position in the Order and how the potion he just drank was conjured to strengthen the power in Harry's blood, the smame blood for which Lily sacrificed herself. Purely evil LV cannot tolerate this much goodness and melts like the wet witch of the west. Julie From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 03:43:36 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:43:36 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > Max wrote: > > The fact of the matter is, Cho dominated Harry's romantic view > > scape for the past three books. There was no chance of another > > girl giving him butterflies. With Cho now seemingly out of the > > picture we have no idea who might attract his attention next. > Phoenixgod responded: > I would agree. Where we apparently disagree is that I think it > widen's Harrys and JKR's choices while you think it narrows them. Max replies: I guess I don't really view three developed possibilities for a romance as a narrowed choice, especially considering where we are in the story arc. Phoenixgod wrote: > As somone who likes to write, it seems like Ginny would be the most > boring choice of a LI for Harry. She's just another Weasley and just > another Gryffindor. No spice. Somewho who could show us the world in > a different way to look at the world like Luna, or a different house > like Susan, or even a different mindset like an unknown slytherin > girl seems like a much more interesting way to go. Max responds: It's all just a matter of opinion and preference though as evidenced by the large H/G fan club. I guess the question is how does JKR feel about Ginny? My guess is she feels a bit more kindly towards her than you do. :) > > Max wrote: > > A Harry romance with anyone other than Ginny, Luna or Hermione(or > > even Cho, for that matter)would seem to the reader like he's being > > paired with a stranger. > Phoenixgod responded: > I think the fact that Luna has become a dark horse contender for > Harry's affections after one book and a handfull of scenes with him > speaks to the fact that a well drawn character, no matter when > introduced, could be satisfactory LI for Harry. Max replies: I would agree with you completely except for the fact that the books are in the winding down phase (excuse me if I'm starting to sound like a broken record :grin:). Many people see OotP as being the deadline for laying the groundwork (not just for Harry's eventual romance, but for many of the other plot lines as well). I tend to agree on this point. I think the puzzle pieces have been laid out. In Books 6/7 JKR will be revealing to us how the pieces fit together. > > Max wrote: > > I suppose it's all a matter of opinion, but I just don't see it. I > > think JKR could convincingly portray an H/G relationship without > > pages of agonizing exposition with various members of the Weasley > > family. > Phoenixgod responded: > I dated my best friends sister once. Trust me when I say that dating > someones sister or daughter is a whole different animal of trust. > And I also think that Harry insecure enough around women that he > might *think* it would be a big problem, even if it isn't one to the > Weasley's. Max replies: I understand what you're saying, and I have no doubt that this type of dynamic can happen. But I don't see it as a universal truth. And more importantly, I don't believe JKR would need to get bogged down in too much of this type of exposition to make the H/G relationship believable. > > Max wrote: > > From the story arc point of view the question is not - how long > > did it take Harry to develop a crush on Cho - but how long was the > > crush developed in terms of the storyline? > Phoenixgod responded: > I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Look at how young Harry > was when the crush started. A shrimpy 13 year old is going to take a > long time to screw up the courage to ask out the pretty, older, and > popular athlete girl. I would hope that a sixteen year old Harry > Potter would be able to move a whole lot faster. Max replies: Yes, I agree. Let's definitely hope so for Harry's sake. My point is focused on the reader though, not Harry. Harry's relationship with Cho didn't just show up out of left field after all. The important question for me is does Book 6 have the time to lay the groundwork for yet another new romance possibility. Personally, I don't think so. Not with so many other open-ended plot lines needing attention. I agree though, we'll know one way or another which ship will sail by the end of HBP. My advice is to you is to stock up on the Pepto Bismol, just in case. :grin: From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 04:42:27 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 04:42:27 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132371 Dungrollin: > Begging your indulgences (for I am canon-less for the moment). > Doesn't Lupin refer to a boggart taking the form of a flesh-eating > slug? Otherwise, I'd agree that it could be read thataway. Ginger: Aargh, I'm canonless this weekend too. I believe he recalls a boggart turning into half a slug, which would be a sl. Having no vowels, it cannot eat anything. Unless it turned into an ug. In which case, watch out. Seriously, I remember it turning into a slug, but not specificly a flesh-eating one. I'll check when I get home Sunday unless someone else answers first. It would be in the chapter where they have their first class with him. > Dungrollin: > Dung beetle-eating slugs?! Stop it! You'll give me nightmares... Ginger: As long as they leave Spot alone. From eileennicholson at aol.com Sun Jul 10 11:29:43 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:29:43 EDT Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <20e.48f06e3.300260a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132372 Eileen: >> Is JKR using any parallels in creating Dumledore? Marozi: >Historical parallels, you mean? I would say in a very general, cultural-archetype sense, Dumbledore is Churchill to Fudge's Chamberlain. the WW's de facto wartime leader, regardless of who the official minister is.< Eileen: Just musing, and expanding the parallels.... Presumably Dumbledore is not going to take on the MoM job at any point, because of his commitment to and at Hogwarts? Are there any likely candidates among members of the Order of the Phoenix for taking prominent roles in the MoM in a Churchill-type regime? Is there a possibility of Voldemort invading and taking control of Beauxbatons, and this action prompting Hogwarts to overcome differences and ally with Durmstrang in some way? Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eileennicholson at aol.com Sun Jul 10 12:13:05 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:13:05 EDT Subject: Something's bugging me... Message-ID: <15.48648715.30026ad1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132373 I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I read the books so recently that I've missed all the fun ;..( In PoA, the end of Fudge's speech (UK paperback P.156) echoes Trelawney's prophecy (P.238). It seems to me that the wording of the two is so close, Fudge is paraphrasing something he's already heard before. So, do we have 'Blue Peter' Trelawney: "Here's one I prepared earlier"? Or is this someone else's prophecy that she's rehashing? As far as I can see, the ones who were present at this prophecy recital were Harry, who recounted it to Dumbledore later and would probably tell various others too, and possibly a fly that had been buzzing in the window downstairs. The recent discussions on the time-turner got me thinking that perhaps when Hermione gave the time-turner back, it was handed over to Fudge at the end of PoA and he then took the opportunity to make a few changes....but he would have had his work cut out to (1) go back to Azkaban, show the paper to Sirius and let him escape, (2) spread the rumours 'in confidence' that Arthur later passes on to Molly and Harry, (3) drop in at the Three Broomsticks to give his speech. In this scenario, he need not have known he had released Sirius until the end of PoA, which could account for an innocent!Fudge sending Dementors out to recapture Sirius and withdrawing them when he sees at the end of PoA that they are a danger to Harry. Perhaps Fudge, as MfM, has a whole undercover animagus team of bugs at his disposal, which would perhaps account for Rita Skeeter being unregistered, given the MoM editorial control over the Daily Prophet. Can anyone get me up to speed with what has been discussed before on this? I wish I had a time tuner that would give me an opportunity to go through all those back posts and catch up with all of you before next week! Cheers Eileen Nicholson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 10 12:18:48 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:18:48 -0000 Subject: What was Hagrid doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132374 Dungrollin: > > Begging your indulgences (for I am canon-less for the moment). > > Doesn't Lupin refer to a boggart taking the form of a flesh-eating > > slug? Otherwise, I'd agree that it could be read thataway. Ginger: > Aargh, I'm canonless this weekend too. I believe he recalls > a boggart turning into half a slug, which would be a sl. Having no > vowels, it cannot eat anything. > > Unless it turned into an ug. In which case, watch out. SSSusan: Well, the truth isn't nearly as fun as the sl and the ug, but here 'tis: "It's always best to have company when you're dealing with a boggart. He becomes confused. Which should he become, a headless corpse or a flesh-eating slug? I once saw a boggart make that very mistake -- tried to frighten two people at once and turned himself into half a slug." [PoA, US hardback, p. 134] Which does leave the us question: Was it the sl or the ug that he turned himself into? Siriusly Snapey Susan From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 13:25:40 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:25:40 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- Minion recruitment In-Reply-To: <001401c584cd$6ca14e80$0dcfcf18@Marshamoon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marsha Holland" wrote: > Are you taking minions who've entered the contest? Yes! If you've entered the contest, you can still be a Minion! You will not be asked to evaluate your own entry, of course. There are plenty of other entries to go around. Please email me directly for the application packet and reading comprehension test. (Okay, I'm kidding. Just tell me you're over 16 and you'll read the book.) TK -- TigerPatronus From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 14:30:45 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:30:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132376 > SSSusan: > IOW, Possibility 6 is that Neville and his parents were both > MCharmed, but Frank & Alice are so much worse off because they were > *also* tortured so horribly by the DEs trying to break through the > MCs. > > I still can't offer an explanation as to why Neville would have been > MCharmed at age 15 ? 18 months (or thereabouts), but there certainly > has been speculation by an awful lot of people that Neville's been > MC'ed. So maybe someone else will pitch in here with a suggestion > for that? Finwitch: Well, there is the possibility that little Neville's uncontrolled magic broke off at that age in a form of a memory charm. That might even take place several times during his childhood - after every visit to his parents, for instance. Of course, it IS possible that it's not Charm but Forgetfulness Potion (which Neville possibly got by means of gum wrappers). OR, Frank&Alice took Forgetfulness Potion while Alice was pregnant - (And Neville got it that way trough his mother) - or F&A are subjects to Forgetfulness Potion and Neville a self-induced Memory Charm. Of course, Lockhart might have been there when the Longbottoms were found and memory-charmed Neville... for whatever reason. Lockhart might have met upset Neville and put the charm on him (because he heard all about Frank &Alice learning he's a fraud - of course Neville doesn't recall any of that.) Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 14:45:00 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:45:00 -0000 Subject: Basilisk & Voldemort-connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132377 > > Inge now: > > Now - what have we got here? > Voldmort's soul - inside an egg - waiting to be brought back to life > with a little help from Trevor? Is this what Voldemort wants? Is this > his final goal? To become the Basilisk - the King of Serpents? After > all - it lives for hundreds of years - in this case probably forever, > had Harry (and the firebird, Fawkes) not put an end to it. Voldemort > seeks immortality. Is this the way he's going to finally get it? > Im not sure what Im getting at here - but this could be something - and > I think this could be what Rowling has referred to as the link between > COS and HBP ?? > > And could there be a connection, too, between the fatal eyes of the > Basilisk and Harry's eyes? And what's with the Rooster in all this? I > don't know. But Im sure some of you clever guys out there can tell me :- Finwitch: Well, in folklore I'm familiar with origins(parents) of a being such as this could indeed be of some sort of control over it. In the case of basilisk - a Rooster(since it sired the egg from which it was hatched). Probably the chickens and toads could have SOME, though the text doesn't mention it. I wonder, however, whether the cry of a Mandrake would be fatal to a Basilisk... or how it would respond to chicken's sound or that of a Toad. Maybe a parselmouth with a toad in hand can gain greater control than one who doesn't... Finwitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:08:17 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:08:17 -0000 Subject: Braille edition of HBP In-Reply-To: <20050708180725.24232.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Metylda wrote: > > Does anyone know of any > > websites, please, where I can read the book when it > > comes out - only read it, not downloading? > > > > Derek > > > Derek- > > According to mugglenet.com, there is a braille version > that will be available at the same time as the regular > version. > The news article link (from mugglenet): > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4642329.stm > Newsweek on-line has an article about a braille edition in the US being available within 3 days, thanks to a special arrangement: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8524603/site/newsweek/ Magda From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 13:34:28 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:34:28 -0000 Subject: Prediction about book 6 (old SPOILER from JKR website) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132379 This excerpt of book 6 was released on J K Rowling's website on August 16th. "(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." It must be a description of a new character. Its highly likely that this new character is the new defence against the dark arts teacher, or it could be the half blood prince. (or maybe even both?) I think this character is going to be a decendant of Godric Griffindor. (to be honest, my only reason for thinking this is because he looks like a lion) Another theory i have is that Harry is also a decendant of Griffindor. Firstly because red sparks are always coming out of his wand. another reason is that his parents were living in a village called 'Godrics Hollow'. I dont think its any coincidence that the names are the same (i don't think there are any coincidences in these books!) another clue is that harry produced Griffindor's sword out of the hat in book 2. I think this new character in the description could be harrys grandfather, or great uncle or something like that. I read somewhere that were going to learn more about Lilly Potter in the next book. i think that we'll probably find out that she is the decendant of Griffindor. Also, its often mentioned in the books that Harry has 'His mothers eyes' i think this is going to be significant. Of course, i'm probably wrong, but thats just what i thought when i read that description. What did anyone else think? i get the sense that this character is going to be a 'goodie' and not a 'baddie'. philippajrice From jake.breeden at dukece.com Sun Jul 10 12:47:28 2005 From: jake.breeden at dukece.com (jake_breeden) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:47:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin = James: STAGgering New Evidence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132380 I think I may be one of the few serious readers of the septology that still clings to Galadriel Waters' theory that Remus Lupin is actually James Potter. I do not believe the switch was made as a kind of sacrifice; instead it is the after affect of a switching spell plan by Lilly that occurred just before LV's attack and went terribly wrong (it was never Lilly's intent that Lupin-as-James would die so that James-as-Lupin could live). I have a much lengthier essay that details my theory on this topic, but wanted to share one single, compelling point of evidence below. I am posting this now because I think there is a chance this true identity will be revealed in HBP, perhaps as James-as-Lupin dies. ....I think one of the biggest clues JKR gave in POA lies in James' animagus form. She herself said that the animal that one transforms into is very closely tied to that person's character. For example, Sirius Black is described in dog-like terms ("growling," a "barking laugh," "sitting very still like a dog who just spotted his prey," etc.) Even his name gives away his animal form ? Sirius is known as the "dog star," thus his name means black dog. Peter Pettigrew's character also seems to fit his animal form. Not only is he small with "beady eyes" like a rat, but in the Shrieking Shack scene he is groveling and crawling on the ground and clutching at the others' robes. Most importantly, he "ratted out" his friends to Voldemort. So when I tried to understand how James related to a stag, I didn't think the connection was quite as obvious as it was for the other two animagi. I did a little research and found some interesting tidbits. For example, the stag is one of the two symbols for Artemis, the Greek goddess of the hunt and the moon (another connection between James and Lupin?). It is also associated with more general themes of masculinity and sacrifice. Then I decided to pull out Webster's Dictionary to see if I were missing other definitions and happened to find what I think may be the strongest evidence yet that Lupin is really James. Being an American I was not familiar with this use of the term, but according to Webster the term "stagged" or "stagging" is British slang meaning "to observe or follow secretly or furtively." How appropriate: James' destiny is to watch over Harry secretly, from inside Lupin's body. Jake. From bkb042 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:51:47 2005 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:51:47 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132381 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hermione. (Killed by Lucius Malfoy. "takes a bullet" to save Harry) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Seamus Finnigan 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Snape is half-brother to Lily and Petunia (SLAPASS Theory.. SnapeLilyAndPetuniaAreSecretlySiblings) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley & Fleur Delacour partner up in the position owing to the increased threat to the wizarding world 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's pensieve, recovered from the Chamber of Secrets by Harry & Dumbledore 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes (he has to, Auror training requires it. Following his experiences in OotP, he now has the drive & confidence to follow in his parents' footsteps. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. After "botching" his attempt on Harry's life, Lucius falls out of favor with Voldemort. With his father now dead, Draco becomes driven by revenge, & joins Dumbledore's Army. 2. Neville is told of the prophecy by Harry 3. Harry is taken to the Ministry of Magic in an effort to discover exactly why Voldemort's curse failed (This will involve the door in the Department of Mysteries that they couldn't open) 4. Peter Pettigrew's finger will be recovered by members of the Order 5. Harry will "inherit" Sirius's motorbike. (It was in Arthur Weasley's garage under a tarp) From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 15:52:49 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:52:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin = James: STAGgering New Evidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c58567$6cd2b0c0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132382 I think I may be one of the few serious readers of the septology that still clings to Galadriel Waters' theory that Remus Lupin is actually James Potter. I do not believe the switch was made as a kind of sacrifice; instead it is the after affect of a switching spell plan by Lilly that occurred just before LV's attack and went terribly wrong (it was never Lilly's intent that Lupin-as-James would die so that James-as-Lupin could live). Sherry now: I can't find the exact reference on her web site, but JKR answered this theory by saying it was a great theory but not true. It's either in the rumors or FAQ section of her site. sherry From elfundeb at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 15:54:57 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:54:57 -0000 Subject: TBAY: ELKINS AVENGED (4 of 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132383 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> Debbie was ensconced in her office in the old fortress overlooking Theory Bay when, much to her surprise, she heard voices down on the long-quiet beach. > "But Faith, we have received some new and important information > regarding Neville and his parents in the last months, and how can we > possibly go and read HBP now without an updated Neville theory?" A new *Neville* theory? Peering out the window, Debbie spied a VASSAL busily loading up a new vessel. She could just make out the letters E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. on the prow. This conversation was definitely worth a listen, so she opened the window wide and, abandoning all pretense of work, listened carefully, beginning to end. > Captain Neri waved from the helm. "See > you after the hurricane!" Debbie leaned her head out the window. "Neri, wait! I want to talk to you!" Dashing out of her office, down the stairs and out onto the parapet, Debbie scanned the shoreline for a suitable boat. Aha! The old Memory Charm paddleboat was still resting onshore nearby, though it was camouflaged by a network of prophecy theories that were threatening to engulf it. Debbie got to work untangling the boat from the weeds, and then pushed it into the water. As expected, it was quite seaworthy, and Debbie allowed herself a brief satisfied smile before setting to the hard work of paddling across the Bay toward Neri's gleaming vessel. Finally, Debbie reached the E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. and, after securing the paddleboat to it with a length of rope, she climbed on board the larger vessel, waved to the enthusiastic crew Neri had recruited, and reached her hand out to him. "I have to congratulate you on this one. Excellent reinterpretation of the Neville theories." As she walked across the deck of the ship, she heard several of the planks creaking. "While I'm here, though, let me test the strength of some of the planks you've used to build the ship." Debbie stopped at a very creaky plank. Neri's voice was heard saying: > [F]or years we have all believed that > Neville's story parallels Harry's story. But several weeks ago, JKR herself told us that > this parallelism only goes *this* far. Neville is a might-have- been, > but he's not prophecy boy and not a replacement. Debbie shook her head. "I'm not sure parallelism is the right word for what we've been saying about Harry and Neville. Neville is Harry's literary double. Well, he's one of Harry's doubles; Tom Riddle is another. A literary double is like a mirror, and as Elkins once said, what the mirror reflects, it also reverses." Debbie walked over to the Pensieve and began to reach for the wand, then stopped. "May I?" Neri nodded. Debbie dipped the wand into the Pensieve, gave the silvery-white contents a swirl, and a blurry Elkins appeared: ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398 Neville: Memory, History, Legacy, Power > In terms of their respective coming-of-age stories, Harry and > Neville seem to me to represent mirrored archetypes. Harry's > story is that of the orphan boy revealed to be the heir to the > throne. . . . His story then, the coming of age story that accompanies > his own particular archetype, is one of acceptance, of "coming > into ones own" by proving oneself worthy of the legacy that one > has inherited, and by learning to accept that legacy's negative > aspects along with its positive ones. > > Neville, on the other hand, I tend to read as a representation > of the opposing archetype: the prince renunciate, the abdicator or > the apostate. . . . He has always known that his father was a kind of a war hero, albeit > a martyred one. And he has always been aware -- far too well > aware, I'd say -- of the role that he is expected to play within > his society. . . . His > story, the coming of age story that accompanies Neville's type, > is one of renunciation, rather than of acceptance, of "coming > into ones own" by finding the strength to *reject* the legacy > and to forge instead a new destiny of ones own choosing. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> Debbie pulled the wand out again. "So. The differences between Harry and Neville have always been apparent. Now, the most interesting part of JKR's response, IMO, was this: ******************************************** http://www.wizardnews.com/story.200505163.html "Yet I was making what I felt was a significant point about Harry and Voldemort, and about prophecies themselves, in showing Neville as the also-ran. If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made. Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought, while Neville remains the tantalising 'might-have-been'. Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences." ************************************* Debbie continued. "The literary double is a vehicle to explore the kind of might-have-beens that JKR describes. Absent the Prophecy, the legacy might have belonged to either Harry or Neville (both of whose parents had defied Voldemort three times), or both of them. Or neither of them. It was their choice. However, Voldemort unwittingly bestowed the legacy exclusively on Harry. "By giving Neville the symbol of his legacy -- Frank's wand -- and reminding him constantly of his failures, Gran may have treated Neville as though the legacy was his to lose. But in OOP the symbol of the false legacy was broken, while Harry's legacy was revealed to him. Harry must now decide whether to accept his legacy, while Neville must accept that this legacy is not his and, as Elkins suggests, 'to forge a new legacy of his own choosing.' The mirror, or parallelism as you call it, is not broken." Debbie helped herself to a biscuit, then continued walking the deck until she reached another creaky plank. Neri's voice was heard to say: "JKR also told us that the > Lestranges were *not* sent after Neville, but after his parents, and > *not* because of the prophecy. This too breaks the parallelism between > the two families. There is now no special reason to assume that the > Longbottoms were attacked at their home, as the Potters were, and that > Neville was present, as Harry was. There is no canon for that at all, > AFAIK not even a suggestion or an allusion, except for the now- broken > parallelism. It is now much more reasonable to assume that the > Longbottoms were attacked while doing their job as aurors. I submit > that Neville did not witness the torture of his parents because he > wasn't even there." "Well, you know," said Debbie slowly, "some of us Memory Charmers are perfectly happy to assume that Neville did not witness anything. But I don't believe canon supports that Frank and Alice were captured while doing their jobs as Aurors. Canon tells us, erm, what does it say again? Accio GoF!" The volume flies out of Debbie's office window, across the Bay and into her hand. "Chapter 30: The Pensieve. 'The four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror -- Frank Longbottom -- and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Curse, believing him to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master . . . .' And later, Dumbledore says, 'His father, Frank, was an Auror . . . .' "Why were the Pensieve Four accused only of capturing *Frank*? Alice isn't mentioned as an Auror anywhere in GoF. So they couldn't have been out on Auror business, or Alice's status would have been mentioned. Therefore, unless Frank and Alice were captured while out having a romantic dinner, the most likely place to have found them together would've been at home." Debbie took a step forward, hitting another plank that creaked in Neri's voice: Deep inside the Longbottoms' > tortured minds must be hidden some big secret, and I mean BIG. > I think > it's a way to vanquish Voldemort. A way that even Dumbledore doesn't > know about. Now *that* would be big enough for me." Debbie sighed. "The Big Bangy Secret." > "So here is a theory to explain all the above: After Voldemort was > vaporized in Godric Hollow, Crouch Sr. secretly devised a plan to > find, capture and annihilate him for good. . . . > "So where did the plan went wrong? Crouch Sr. himself, out of > carelessness, or more likely out of an urge to brag, let slipped > something about it to his son. Young Barty, unknowingly to his father > already a junior DE, realized that the Longbottoms were the key to > locating Vapor!mort, and immediately recruited the Lestranges to > attack them." "I like they way you've identified Barty Jr. as the one who set the Lestranges after the Longbottoms. After all, Voldemort does identify him as a faithful servant, and only a faithful servant could have done that. "But doesn't it make more sense that Auror Frank had been assigned the job of tracing Vapormort, and that this was the information that Crouch Sr. carelessly revealed to his son? Because I do find it a bit hard to believe that Crouch had a secret plan to vanquish Voldemort once and for all. Because the arc of the series strongly implies that *Harry* is going to figure out how to do it -- flying by the seat of the pants as he approaches his own doom." Neri protested, "But I said it didn't matter what the secret was." "Yes, you did. But I guess I'm not sold on the idea that Frank has *any* secrets to tell." Debbie stirred the silver mist again until she saw her own reflection again. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/57107 <> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> "I see dealing with the loss of one's past as an important theme of the series. And Harry's and Neville's stories illuminate this theme. Both Harry's and Neville's parents are effectively dead. And what happens when someone dies? They are *eulogized*. All of their best characteristics and their greatest deeds are lauded. And that's what everyone remembers. Their mistakes? Never mentioned again. Nobody tells Harry that James was an arrogant bully. Harry only learned this by surreptitiously perusing someone else's memories. And Neville receives daily reminders of his parents' glorious past." Debbie smiled, a bit wickedly, then added, "If there is a Longbottom secret, it's that Frank, like James, was not as saintly as Gran makes him out to be. Maybe Frank was Voldemort's spy and that's why Bellatrix thought he knew where Voldemort was hiding." Faith stared incredulously at Debbie. Debbie shrugged. "Well, you don't have to believe that part. Just leave it that Frank and Alice are emblematic of something that has been lost. If they recovered their memories, the parallels -- and differences -- between Harry's and Neville's approach to their lost pasts would suddenly become meaningless. "But let's move on to the Memory Charm element of your theory. You began with my theory that 'the Longbottoms are *not* insane and traumatized for years because of the torture. No, in fact they are both Memory Charmed.' "Actually, the version I like best posits that Fudge (of course!) broke through Memory Charms previously placed on them in order to determine who the perpetrators were because Crouch Sr. was desperate to round up some suspects. This conveniently explains why Dumbledore (who would have no reason to know this) was uncertain of their guilt. Take a look," said Debbie as she once again stirred the mist in the Pensieve: ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38792 > it's possible that the real problem with the Longbottoms is that [snip] the MOM attempted to break their Memory Charms so they could testify but in doing so damaged their minds beyond repair, as happened to Bertha Jorkins. But in > doing so damaged their minds beyond repair, as happened to Bertha Jorkins. > And so the MOM claimed that the Cruciatus Curse caused their insanity, to > cover their own tracks. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> "In this version, Neville needed a Memory Charm because he knew his parents were *not* rendered insane by a little spot of Cruciatus. But what I liked best about this version is that it registers much better on the Bang scale. Instead of a few renegade Aurors (we'll name them Liddy and Hunt), the coverup could reach right to the top. "And," Debbie continued, turning to Faith, "what you should like is that Neville did not have to witness the attacks for this theory to work. Fortunately, though, Neri didn't end his speculation with the notion of a Big Bangy Secret." Debbie took a few more steps toward the ship's mast, but heard nary a creak. Debbie jumped up and down, and finally Neri's voice was heard again: I'm going to further improve Debbie's idea by suggesting > that the Longbottoms *weren't* blasted with the usual Memory Charm. > Instead, Fudge have been sending them, during all these years, > bubblegum that was treated with Forgetfulness Potion." "WOW. That's the most fabulous thing I've heard in the Bay in years, Neri. Even though I think that thematically a recovery makes no sense, I love the way you've marshalled the evidence. Not only that, I think you deserve a L.O.O.N. award for the thoroughness of your analysis." "But let's run through your last few points." Debbie took a step backward and jumped again: > "I think the thematic role of the Longbottoms family might be to > represent the pureblood families that are good, yet weak," said Neri. "Hmm. Alice and Frank were able to defy Voldemort three times,just like James and Lily did. That doesn't seem like weakness. Neri's voice continued, "We now know that she > wanted to make it clear that Neville, while being very brave and > noble, could have never survived the dangers that Harry survived." "I must respectfully disagree." Debbie picked up the wand again and dipped it into the Pensieve. The silver mist swirled and the elfin image reappeared. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129017: > So, Dumbledore "does not believe" that Neville has what it takes. Why > not? How would Dumbledore know what qualities Neville *would have > had* if his circumstances had been the same as Harry's? [snip] > If Neville was disabled > by a memory charm, this reinforces JKR's point about destiny, because > it might mean that Neville did have what it takes after all, but that > events have sent him down a very different path. ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> Debbie turns from the Pensieve to Neri. "Jo didn't tell us whether Neville could have defeated Voldemort. Instead, she tells us what Dumbledore believes. I think her statement is a huge bit of misdirection." Debbie reached the last untested plank, and the assembled crew heard a loud creak: So > by taking and keeping the "presents" his mother gave him, Neville was > making a noble choice, and of course, being Neville, he did it badly. > But in the end it would be the *right* choice, because if he hadn't > took the wrappers, nobody in Book 6 would have the evidence to deduce > what's going on with the Longbottoms. Neville's choice will save both > his parents and himself in the end." "Neville didn't do it badly, Forgetfulness Potion or not! Neville's choice was the right choice because it's right for him to treat his mother with simple respect for her dignity as a human being. It's what makes the scene so poignant, especially with Gran, for whom the condition of her son and daughter-in-law is obviously an embarrassment to the family pride, nattering at him to put the wrapper in the trash already! "Perhaps the Longbottoms -- including Gran and Great Uncle Algie -- represent the old warrior ways of the Wizarding World. OTOH, Neville's quiet courage and his willingness to do the right thing whatever the consequences may represent the new legacy he is forging for himself." Faith began nodding enthusiastically. > "Yes, but Neville's memory problems aren't absolutely necessary for my > theory," said Neri. Debbie lowered her voice to a whisper. "Even I'll admit that Memory Charm theories aren't unsinkable. That's why I keep so many of them on my little boat." > The sun sent its last ray of light before disappearing behind the > clouds, and the name on the little ship's bow shone suddenly: Debbie paused to admire the shining letters on his vessel's bow: > E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. > > Enthralled Longbottoms Know the INside Secret: the Ability to Vanquish > the ENemy is Guarded in the Elusive Department. "I wish I had a catchy acronym. We used to get our acronyms from Tabouli's Acronym Generating Service (T.A.G.S.), but when I asked for an acronym for my theory, Tabouli was on holiday, the TAGS machine was down, and *look* at what I got!" The letters "T.N.R.A.M.C.N.T.S.H.P.B.T.A.F.A.S.E.T.U.D.W.O.I.T." wrapped completely around the Memory Charm paddleboat. "You try to pronounce that!" (to be continued) Debbie ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> * F.E.A.T.H.E.R.B.O.A.S. = Foaming Enthusiasts of Ambush, Torture and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:58:35 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:58:35 -0000 Subject: Lupin = James: not so STAGgering (sorry) In-Reply-To: <000f01c58567$6cd2b0c0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > I think I may be one of the few serious readers of the septology > that still clings to Galadriel Waters' theory that Remus Lupin is > actually James Potter. > > Sherry now: > I can't find the exact reference on her web site, but JKR answered this > theory by saying it was a great theory but not true. It's either in the > rumors or FAQ section of her site. >From JKR's site : FAQ : About the books Did James and Lupin switch bodies before James was killed? An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die. Sorry. At least you got an "ingenious" for it. JKR thinks you're "ingenious." That's good. :-) TK -- TigerPatronus From elfundeb at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:06:05 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:06:05 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132385 ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> (continued from message 132383) Debbie was just climbing back into the Memory Charm paddleboat when she spotted a new vessel approaching the E.L.K.I.N.S. A.V.E.N.G.E.D. It was a small vessel with a very large canon on board, sporting the catchy name C.R.O.U.C.H.I.N.G. T.I.G.E.R. H.I.D.D.E.N. P.O.O. (CROUCH INvolved in General, Tapestry of Intrigue Gets Extremely Ridiculous, Headmaster Involved, Dumbledore Decides to ENact Charm, Aurors Told Prophecy, Obviously Obliviated). Dungrollin, at the helm with one hand on the wheel and the other clutching a half-empty bottle of firewhisky, offered a quick summary: > DD wanted to set up Fidelius charms to protect the Longbottoms and > the Potters, with himself as secret-keeper. For whatever reason > (though I'm happy to agree with Snape that it was James' arrogance), > the Potters refuse, and go with Sirius. The Longbottoms accepted > DD's offer, and so he told them the prophecy, knowing that the > information was safe with them. After Voldy got gassed at GH, a > number of DEs were still at large, and DD and Crouch knew that this > meant the Longbottoms were in danger of revealing the prophecy. So > they all got together, and Frank and Alice agreed to have their > memories modified. At home, Barty Crouch Senior lets slip that he > had to modify the memories of two of his best Aurors because they > knew something important, and Barty Crouch Junior (assuming > excitedly that this means they know where Voldy's hiding) scurries > off to his Death Eater pals to plan an evening's Auror torture. "Why, yes, Dungrollin! We're all just speculating our way through the gaping holes in the Longbottom story, and yours is as plausible as any. JKR has certainly been telegraphing to us that it's an important bit of backstory." > To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and > Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had > been placed on Frank and Alice. The rest is all trying to make > sense of it. "How about if I give you an extra bit of canon?" Debbie tossed a can (n)on onto the deck. "It's circumstantial, but I think it will help. Canon states that Frank was tortured first, and when he didn't talk, they tortured Alice. Now it makes no sense to torture Alice if Frank has already lost his marbles. Yet, the end result is the same. If they tortured Alice until she went insane while Frank was still watching, why is he still alive? These were Death Eaters! It doesn't make sense that they went back to torturing Frank until the same thing happened to him. So there must be another explanation." "However, I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that Crouch knew about the Prophecy, though. Dumbledore seems to like keeping information to himself and feeding it to others on a need-to-know basis. "Since the Prophecy doesn't provide any practical information, did the Ministry need to know at all? I think it's more likely that Dumbledore only revealed the Prophecy to other Order members. Specifically, those members who were also Aurors -- Frank, Alice, and Mad-Eye, who might be able to use that knowledge in their dark- wizard-catching activities." Dungrollin protested: > Anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and > cobbled the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will > be... ahem... correct. "Well, then," Debbie replied, "we can always drop Crouch out of it and we'd be left with H.I.D.D.E.N. P.O.O. After all, the possibility that Frank and Alice agreed to be Memory-Charmed is at least as plausible as my theory that Bella and co. did it." Yet another ship, the D.R.I.B.B.L.E. S.H.A.D.O.W.S., closed in on the trio of Memory Charm theories. Captain SSSusan, margarita in hand, waved. Neri, who had been busy opening another tin of ship biscuits, broke in: > If it is found that Frank and Alice are Memory Charmed, then what > about Neville? Either he was MCharmed too (why?!) or his memory > problems are merely psychological with nothing magical about them. > That last possibility, IMO, would come out rather lame. SSSusan, captain of the D.R.I.B.B.L.E. S.H.A.D.O.W.S., added, > I still can't offer an explanation as to why Neville would have been > MCharmed at age 15 ? 18 months (or thereabouts), but there certainly > has been speculation by an awful lot of people that Neville's been > MC'ed. So maybe someone else will pitch in here with a suggestion > for that? Debbie broke in, "I think we can find something in the old Memory Charm Symposium. How about a variant of Memory Charm Most Foul (Otherwise known as: "A Family Affair," "Amnesia Begins At Home," and "Ever So Evil Granny Longbottom")?" Everyone present gave Debbie a horrified look. SSSusan glanced nervously at the tattered FEATHERBOAS around Debbie's neck. "Don't look so scared. I'm not going to suggest (as I once did) that Gran gleefully tortured Neville with the Cruciatus Curse. But think about what Gran knows and doesn't know. She probably doesn't know about the Prophecy. But she might know that back before Godric's Hollow, Harry and Neville were at risk. She's already effectively lost her son, and undoubtedly wants to keep her grandson alive at all costs. "But she treats Neville a bit oddly, doesn't she? She humiliates him in public, sending him useless items like the Remembrall (which doesn't help him remember anything), broadcasting to anyone who will listen that 'he hasn't got his father's talent' -- well, you get the picture. "Wouldn't a Memory Charm -- or perhaps some of Neri's Forgetfulness Potion -- be a convenient way of making Neville appear to be hopelessly inept at magic? Of course, she didn't tell Great Uncle Algie, and he kept trying to force the magic out of Neville until he succeeded." Dungrollin nodded. All was quiet on Theory Bay as the twilight deepened and the boats in the bay became obscured by the darkness. Dungrollin's sharp eyes, however, spotted a M.I.N.I.S.U.B. lying in wait just beneath the surface, threatening to torpedo all four vessels with a dose of Evil!Neville. Clutching her firewhisky, Dungrollin mused, "Perhaps we should set > up a flotilla, all the Longbottom/Memory Charm theories huddled > together for the storm. Someone's bound to survive, and we can all > hop on board as our theories are sunk, one by one." Debbie nodded. "We'll be ok, though. The theories may sink, but there's always a life raft available for the theorisers. No theoriser will go down with the ship when Hurricane Jo comes. Unless they want to. And even a sunk theory is never truly lost. I hear they're going to build a Memory Charm gallery in the Canon Museum." Debbie rummaged through the pile of Memory Charm theories on board the paddleboat and finally found what she was looking for. Pulling out a bottle of single malt whisky, Debbie poured herself a glassfull, then raised it high and shouted, "A toast to Memory Charm theories!" "Hear, hear," everyone responded as they downed their own glasses. Debbie ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> * F.E.A.T.H.E.R.B.O.A.S. = Foaming Enthusiasts of Ambush Torture and Hostility, Embracing Really Bloodthirsty Operations and Savagery ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> ><(("> From bkb042 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 17:59:25 2005 From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:59:25 -0000 Subject: Prediction about book 6 (old SPOILER from JKR website) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "philippajrice" wrote: > This excerpt of book 6 was released on J K Rowling's website on August > 16th. > > "(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." > > It must be a description of a new character. Its highly likely that > this new character is the new defence against the dark arts teacher, > or it could be the half blood prince. (or maybe even both?) I think > this character is going to be a decendant of Godric Griffindor. (to be honest, my only reason for thinking this is because he looks like a lion) (snip) > philippajrice I personally doubt that this description is that of a "corporeal" character, DADA teacher, HBP, or otherwise. Based on the JKR- approved cover art for HBP, (and in no small part to remain consistant with my predictions submitted in the contest), I think that the individual described in the passage is an image taken from a pensieve, more specifically (and improbably) Slytherin's pensieve. Which could, if true, mean that the image is probably that of, hold on to your broomsticks, Godric Gryffindor himself! Naysayers will ultimately point out that "wire-rimmed spectacles" hadn't been invented at the time of the formation of Hogwart's, but I would counter with the fact that stone castles in Britain hadn't been invented, either. I look forward to the flogging that this will probably receive. Brian From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 18:17:07 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:17:07 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132387 > bboyminn: On another issue, since in OLD English Common Law, inheritance by the > eldest son (eldest male relative) was the default, it represents a > strong enough legal precendent that Sirius would have inherited the > Black Family Estate even though he was disowned and a prisoner at the > time. a_svirn: Now, this is simply wrong. The conception of freedom of disposition by will IS part of Common Law. Unlike in the Civil Law were there are indeed some restrictions that often make it impossible to disinherit say, the eldest son. > bboyminn: >> > On the issue of Draco, Narcissa's status and position in the family > means nothing, since males are given preference, it's the fact that > Draco is the only (known) living male who still has Black blood > flowing in his veins that makes Draco the next likely heir. a_svirn: Well, I don't know about the Wizarding Law, but under Common Law no, it does not. Common Law concerns only descendents. As you yourself say it only descends, never ascends. > bboyminn: > > Later Common Law and modern law do not necessarily follow this > principle unless there are specific entailments attached to a will, > land, title, etc... a_svirn: Again you got it wrong. Entailments are NOT part of Common Law. They are Civil Law. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 20:31:38 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:31:38 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > On another issue, since in OLD English Common Law, > > inheritance by the eldest son (eldest male relative) was the > > default, it represents a strong enough legal precendent that > > Sirius would have inherited the Black Family Estate even though > > he was disowned and a prisoner at the time. > > a_svirn: > > Now, this is simply wrong. The conception of freedom of disposition > by will IS part of Common Law. Unlike in the Civil Law were there > are indeed some restrictions that often make it impossible to > disinherit say, the eldest son. > bboyminn: There is no denying that Will and Testiments, as well as patents and entails, come into play, and that there are rights applied to people other than the Eldest Male; these all certainly have substantial history backing them up, but... Under English Common Law all property descended to the eldest surviving son,... http://it.uwp.edu/lansdowne/als.html Primogeniture - English common law system of inheritance whereby the eldest son received everything. http://fp.sedona.net/genealogy/past12.htm Primogeniture?i.e., the right of succession of the eldest son?became characteristic of the common law. http://www.gongfa.com/common%20lawbuliedianbaike.htm Under the Irish system of tanistic succession (*as opposed to the English system of pure primogeniture*), http://hometown.aol.com/dolmenx/Page4.html In the absence of a will or specification of land distribution, the rules of primogeniture were invoked, giving the oldest son the rights to all real property. Erickson explains that "**primogeniture was applied more harshly in England**" than elsewhere in Europe... http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/PROPERTY.htm Under Common Law, real property descended to the oldest male heir -- except in Kent, where partible inheritance among male issue prevailed, with the proviso that the youngest son inherited the household ("gavelkind"). ***Nowhere did land descend to any female if there lived a male heir, /however remote the relationship/.*** How is it that primogeniture is common sense everywhere in England except Kent? http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/black/sp001650.html I never denied the concept of Wills and Testiments, nor am I implying that Primogeniture is the absolute one and only method of resolving estates. I'm saying that the concept of Primogeniture is especially strong and dominate in England, and is threaded through a substantial portion of English history and culture. A statement which does not deny the rest of English history and culture. > > bboyminn: > > >> > > On the issue of Draco, Narcissa's status and position in the > > family means nothing, since males are given preference, it's the > > fact that Draco is the only (known) living male who still has > > Black blood flowing in his veins that makes Draco the next likely > > heir. > > a_svirn: > > Well, I don't know about the Wizarding Law, but under Common Law no, > it does not. Common Law concerns only descendents. As you yourself > say it only descends, never ascends. > bboyminn: True; in my discussion, I acknowledge that we don't know the details of Wizard's law, but I speculated that strong historical legal traditions especially those that were ingrain into historical culture would likely carry over into the wizard world. As far as Draco having any right of inheritance, I refer you to the last item in my link list above. "Nowhere did land descend to any female if there lived a male heir, /however remote the relationship/." Of course, that statement isn't absolute, it has a context. Women did have some rights clearly defined in law and tradition, but Primogeniture was an dominant social concept especially in England. This brings us to the general historical concept of marriage. In marriage, husband and wife become one, they become one in the husband. In that sense, Narcissa in becoming one with her husband, has joined the House of Malfoy. Because the female Black cousins have married into other families, that diminished their rights as Blacks; diminishes but doesn't erase. While Narcissa is now a Malfoy, it is none the less true that Draco is the only known living male with Black blood flowing in his veins. Further, your point about 'decendance' doesn't apply because that line of decendancy has ended; there are no more decendants. Therefore, the estate can only go sideways, to the cousins or to the only existing blood male. And again, I emphasize that without a Will, Harry has no rights at all. The only way Harry can get anything is if Sirius left a Will, and given who Sirius was and the difficult circumstances surrounding him, that Will is sure to be contested and resolved in court. > > bboyminn: > > > > Later Common Law and modern law do not necessarily follow this > > principle unless there are specific entailments attached to a > > will, land, title, etc... > > a_svirn: > > Again you got it wrong. Entailments are NOT part of Common Law. They > are Civil Law. bboyminn: My continual references to 'OLD', 'traditional', and 'historical' were intended to separate the historical precedent I was referring too from modern law and tradition. Further all my research indicates the 'Common Law' was /general/ law, not just criminal law. The references to Common Law that I read seemed to deal with all aspects of life, not just criminal aspects. The fact that I find references to inheritance law in the articles on Common Law implies to me that Common Law also deals with civil matters. You can pick all the nits you want, but you will not be able to pick away the fact that Primogeniture is a long and STRONG thread that is woven into the history of England, and I speculate, therefore woven into the history of wizards. Snarky as I may be, that's were I firmly stand. Steve/bboyminn From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 21:37:02 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:37:02 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- Minion Chancie taking over spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132389 The first Minion to get a job beyond evaluating entries is *Chancie, The Minion in Charge of Spoilers.* >From now until the HBP release, Chancie will be posting which spoilers are off-limits as predictions. It is assumed that the Jim Dale reading on Tuesday's Today show will be the primary one, but there may be others. Just so you all know: Chancie speaks with the Voice of Spoiler Authority. To other people who have volunteered to become Minions: Thank you, you are in the Minion file to evaluate entries, and Chancie specifically volunteered for extra Minion duties. You should feel neither slighted nor trepiditious that you will have extra duties heaped upon you. TK -- TigerPatronus From imontero at iname.com Sun Jul 10 15:52:25 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:52:25 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: <20050709002826.92572.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132390 Luna here: And what has Jo told us about romantic relationships? We can divide Jo's quotes in before and after she realized that H/H and R/H tribes existed and that they were very scary indeed. Some of their members have even threatened to stop reading the books if their respective ships sink! Kind of scary, isn't it? ;-) So no wonder why she stopped giving straight forward answers as she used to before, when she was inocent and carefree... She also enjoys the discussions! Now, let's have a look at her quotes. You will see that her answers are very coherent and that they follow, invariably, the same line... I am including only those quotes that refer directly to shipping matters or where she was directly asked about the shippy aspects of the books. The quotes appear in chronological order. Now, here we go: Quote 1: Transcript of National Press Club author's luncheon, NPR Radio, October 20, 1999: J.K. Rowlingquestion22: Nah ... don't like that one.[2] Oh I like this one: "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?" JKR: No! They're, they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. () Quote 2 Davies, Frank. "Joanne Kathleen Rowling, creator of the Harry Potter," Sunday Gazette-Mail (Charleston, SC), 14 November 1999: In a scene befitting a rock star or sports hero, Rowling was besieged by young fans at the Press Club, part of a two-week U.S. tour. She signed more than 400 books, and displayed an impish humor and no-nonsense style in answering questions from children and their parents: (...) On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink." Comment: She already stated the nature of Harry and hermione's friendship. They are **very** platonic friends. Quote 3 20 October, 2000 On Friday, October 20th, Barnes & Noble.com and Yahoo! ...sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them... ...jkrowling_bn: yes, something's 'going on'... jkrowling_bn: but Ron doesn't realise it yet... Comment: Now that she already stated the platonic nature of Harry and Hermione's friendship, she does confirm that something is going on between Ron and Hermione. This detail is important because when asked about whom Hermione loves, she said that the answer was in GOF (see quote 6 ), and we know that something was indeed going on between her and Ron in GOF, JKR confirmed it... Quote 4 Online chat transcript, Scholastic.com, 3 February 2000 Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley? Jo: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) Comment: This is Ginny time! As she already stated that Harry and Hermione are just very platonic friends and that Ron and Hermione have something going on, it is safe to infere that he will be changing his mind about Ginny. Quote 5 >From a BBC chat with JK Rowling, March 12, 2001) Q: Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend? A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire! ? Comment: see quote 3's comment Quote 6 Couric, Katie. Interview with J.K. Rowling. Dateline NBC, 20 June 2003 Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" Rowling: (slight frown) "Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?" Couric: "No I'm kidding. Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential (or did she say "tension") there" (A/N: I know this is a crucial sentence, but I had some trouble understanding her here? she mumbles the sentence a little. This is my best interpretation! Either way, R/H shippers around the world are grinning!) Comment: here she is confirming that Ron and Hermione's tension in the book has actually a romantic nature, also she is implying the platonic nature of Harry and Hermione's friendship as they are not the ones with potential to kissing. Quote 7 Interview with Steve Kloves and J.K. Rowling, February 2003. Lizo: In this movie we've seen the kids develop from the first film, can you tell us about the relationship between Harry, Ron, and Hermione and how that is developing film by film? JKR: Well I think it is developing in the films as it does in the books, which is to say that they are, they're much stronger together than apart. They're much more aware, in the second film, of their particular strengths. So they're more effective, the children are able to do more complex things, for example the Polyjuice Potion. And also Chris in the second film has kind of foreshadowed what I don't do until the fourth book, which is that you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them, that belong to a sort of slightly more mature person. Comment: the key word here is CHRIS, now what is Chris exactly foreshadowing in CS's film. Let's ask him: Quote 8 (On being asked whether the handshake at the end of the CoS movie was foreshadowing events to come with Ron and Hermione) "It is foreshadowing, yeah. I just love the idea that the two of them, that there's an impending crush. And it's such a real thing for kids at that age. For instance, I asked Emma to hug Dan, and she said, 'No way,' and that was the day she was the most nervous being on the set. She was like, 'I am not going to hug him, no I'm not.' And I said, 'You've been petrified, this is one of your best friends, if not your best friend, you have to hug him,' I said, 'but you won't hug Ron, because that's where the tension is." -- From Q&A session with Chris Columbus at the CoS press junket In Chamber of Secrets, the romance between Hermione and Ron begins to blossom ? but just slightly. The set itself was more randy, and hormones sometimes raged among the large cast of pubescent actors and extras. Columbus says, "The problem I had in the Great Hall on one of the days was, a lot of notes were being passed back and forth ? he likes her, she likes him. Finally, I said, 'Guys, this is not a romance school.'" -- From a TIME Europe interview with Chris Columbus Comment: Yes, in GOF we see Ron and Hermione's tension get to a peak, and we also see Harry having a crush on Cho, but we don't see Harry developing more than platonic feelings for Hermione or the other way around... Extra quotes: Red Nose Day Chat, BBC Online, March 12, 2001 Transcription courtesy of The Harry Potter Galleries. How do you choose the names for your books? JKR: W... ...Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley? JKR: You'll see... poor Ginny, eh?.. Does Hermione love Ron or Harry? I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. Comment: After all the "clues" she has given to us in her interviews, I just wonder exactly the same... JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 renata: What happened between Hermione and Viktor krum during the summer? JK Rowling replies -> Ron would like to know that, too. Comment: As of March 2004, Ron and Hermione are very much a couple in Jo's head! Conclusion: We can argue all we want about what can we imply from the books... The thing is that each one of us has interpreted the books in so many different ways that it is nearly impossible to state a general truth about what is canon and what is not... This is also the beauty of this website, we can get to see and debate other people's interpretation. On the other hand, if we have the author actually telling us what is going on in the books and giving us more than hints about the matter, I think we should hear and read what she has said about the matter.... Luna From jake.breeden at dukece.com Sun Jul 10 16:33:52 2005 From: jake.breeden at dukece.com (jake_breeden) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:33:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin = James: not so STAGgering (sorry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132391 TigerPatronus reported: > From JKR's site : FAQ : About the books > > Did James and Lupin switch bodies before James was killed? > An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself > and left his wife and son to die. Thanks for the thoughtful response. It turns out that I am slightly obsessed with this theory, and so I am really familiar with JKR's responses on this matter. Maybe I am a whacko "true believer", but I think it is pretty easy to read all of JKR's responses and still believe that James could be Lupin. The key is to know that it was neither James nor Lupin who did the switch: it was Lily, perhaps with the help of McGonagal, on the night of the LV attack. I believe this was done without James or Lupin's knowledge, and against their will. Lily didn't intend for Lupin to die, either. She had a plan that she thought would work perfectly, and it almost did. I believe we will learn about that plan in HBP. And of course I agree completely with JKR: James did not intend to save himself, and has been completely tortured by the turn of events for all these years. But he has accepted his duty of watching out for his son, nonetheless. Jake From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 22:01:02 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:01:02 -0000 Subject: Historical points Re: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Under Common Law, real property descended to the oldest male heir - > except in Kent, where partible inheritance among male issue > prevailed, with the proviso that the youngest son inherited the > household ("gavelkind"). ***Nowhere did land descend to any female > if there lived a male heir, /however remote the relationship/.*** > How is it that primogeniture is common sense everywhere in England > except Kent? Karen: Just a small historical note in answer to your question: these laws go back to way before the Norman Conquest and it was really only just prior to than, so only since about the 10th centuary, that 'England' became one realm in the way that we understand 'England' to mean today. Before that time it was a collection of smaller realms and kingdoms such as Wessex, Mercia, Kent etc. Kent was a realm in its own right with its own laws and customs so it is quite conceavable that it had an entirely different set of laws including inherience laws. This brings us to the general historical concept of marriage. In > marriage, husband and wife become one, they become one in the >husband. In that sense, Narcissa in becoming one with her husband, >has joined the House of Malfoy. Karen again: Actually in medieval England and prior to then, it was more than that. Through the union of matrimony the wife became another of the husband's chattels. That is why the woman's father (or brother in absentia) 'gives her hand in marriage'. He is actually transfering ownership of the woman from family A to family B. That is why in the marriage ceremony the woman vowed to obey and why she endows the husband with all her worldy goods (in other words passed ownership onto him) whereas he only vows to share his worldly goods with her. A husband had the right to beat his wife if she displeased him and it was only considered bad form if he did so in public or marked her face badly so that it was obvious what had happened. They were rather more enlightened in Wales where women had more rights. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 22:01:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:01:40 -0000 Subject: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132393 > > bboyminn: > > There is no denying that Will and Testiments, as well as patents and > entails, come into play, and that there are rights applied to people > other than the Eldest Male; these all certainly have substantial > history backing them up, but... > >> > In the absence of a will or specification of land distribution, the > rules of primogeniture were invoked, giving the oldest son the rights > to all real property. Erickson explains that "**primogeniture was > applied more harshly in England**" than elsewhere in Europe... > http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/PROPERTY.htm > > > a_svirn: That's exactly what I mean: "IN THE ABSENCE OF WILL". That means that under Common Law if Sirius was disinherited by will of his, say, father (or mother?) he wasn't going to get anything. This further means that he inherited under some other system ? probably something like entail. > > bboyminn: > > True; in my discussion, I acknowledge that we don't know the details > of Wizard's law, but I speculated that strong historical legal > traditions especially those that were ingrain into historical culture > would likely carry over into the wizard world. > > As far as Draco having any right of inheritance, I refer you to the > last item in my link list above. > > "Nowhere did land descend to any female if there lived a male heir, > /however remote the relationship/." > > Of course, that statement isn't absolute, it has a context. Women did > have some rights clearly defined in law and tradition, but > Primogeniture was an dominant social concept especially in England. a_svirn: This is very true, but Draco, although unquestionably male, is not a heir. At least, not to the Black's estate. To Malfoy's ? yes he is. > > bboyminn: > > Further, your point about 'decendance' doesn't apply because that line > of decendancy has ended; there are no more decendants. Therefore, the > estate can only go sideways, to the cousins or to the only existing > blood male. a_svirn: No, you got it wrong again. Because the line is ended, Common Law does not apply at all. The inheritance can only descend, remember? It is only under the legal mechanism that allows ascendance cousins can inherit. And even then Draco would be out of the running, because the rule of primogeniture does not normally allow the inheritance to pass through the female line. >> >> bboyminn: > > My continual references to 'OLD', 'traditional', and 'historical' were > intended to separate the historical precedent I was referring too from > modern law and tradition. Further all my research indicates the > 'Common Law' was /general/ law, not just criminal law. The references > to Common Law that I read seemed to deal with all aspects of life, not > just criminal aspects. The fact that I find references to inheritance > law in the articles on Common Law implies to me that Common Law also > deals with civil matters. a_svirn: If you conduct your research even further you discover that the difference between Common and Civil Law has nothing to do with criminal matters. The former is based on the principle of precedent (or case), while the latter based on the written laws. In additions, there have been different institutions that applied these two systems. Common law has been practiced in courts while Civil Law or equity has been the domain of Lord Chancellor and correspondedly the courts of chancery. > >> bboyminn: > You can pick all the nits you want, but you will not be able to pick > away the fact that Primogeniture is a long and STRONG thread that is > woven into the history of England, and I speculate, therefore woven > into the history of wizards. > > Snarky as I may be, that's were I firmly stand. a_svirn: Oh, I quite agree about Primogeniture. From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 18:11:10 2005 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:11:10 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Predictions [includes one cover art SPOILER!] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132394 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid, possibly in an attempt to save Dumbledore from harm. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor or Felix Felicis 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an unspeakable, which will prove to be an important revalation. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, who is the "old Lion guy". This is my reasoning for thinking this: Felicis comes from the word Felis which means feline. When I read the description JKR gave I thought of a cat and then the chapter name led me to beleive the description was about this Felicis character. I keep going back on this idea of mine(that FF is the new DADA teacher) because it seems he is brought into the book further along into the story. Hmmm.... 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny in the end, possibly having short flings in the beginning 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones, who else is there??? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Penseive, belonging to either Harry's parents or the Hogwarts Founders. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Ron will be made Quidditch Captain, making his vision in the mirror of erised closer to being real. Harry will be back as seeker, Ginny will be a chaser, Ron keeper, and I really want Neville to join the team; that could prove to be interesting!!! 2. The graveyard behind the school will finally make an appearance. It will be the site of the dark mark as shown on the back of the US cover. We will finally get to visit Godric's Hollow, even if just through a penseive. 3. Harry and Hermione will share a romantic moment which will make Ron jealous, thus putting a strain on the trio's friendship. Ron will come out in the open about his feelings for Hermione and they will finally start dating. In the meantime Harry will embrace some new Warm fuzzy feelings for Ginny!!! (One can dream...) 4. This Felix Felicis will join the Order. 5. Harry will "inherit" Grimmauld Place but he won't really want anything to do with the place. Ok, well, I hope my time spent gazing into the depths of my crystal ball have paid off a little; maybe one or two of those are remotely close to being plaussible! -Cookiemacster From arolls at igc.org Sun Jul 10 18:19:50 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:19:50 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132395 Sorry - got carried away with the predictions.... Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew (but not before his silver arm wreaks some serious havoc!) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Viktor Krum 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Related to the work she was doing for the MoM as a Unspeakable. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Aberforth Dumbledore 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, but not before she rejects him once or twice. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Snape's Soup tureen 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Goblins (and their rebellious history) will figure significantly in the story; The Trio will have to consult Prof. Binns on several points of information. Possibly Fudge's dealings with the Goblins will be clarified. 2. Bill Weasley and Fleur Delacourt will get engaged. We may learn of the effects of Veela on Death-Eater (and vice versa). 3. Grawp will develop into an important figure in the Giants' military force in the War. His English will improve, and he will become especially attached to Hermoine. 4. Luna will help Harry learn to make contact with someone on the other side of the Veil. 5. Kingsley Shacklebolt will be unmasked as a member of the OOTP and will lose his job in the Ministry. He will be replaced by Percy Weatherby. 6. The Flying Motorcycle will return! 7. Neville's knack for Herbology will come in handy. Perhaps in reviving/curing Frank and Alice. 8. The Trio will become special liaisons between DA and the OOTP - they will get to attend some meetings. 9. Draco Malfoy will witness LV murder his father in punishment for selling his stuff. In the same episode, Harry will save Draco from the same fate. Draco becomes seriously conflicted. 10. At least *one* of the 12 uses of Dragon's Blood will come into play. 11. Dudley Dursley will display magical tendencies. 12. Old Lion guy is, in fact, Godric Gryffindor, as seen in some as-yet-described device for viewing the past. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 19:44:44 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:44:44 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132396 Potioncat wrote: > So a Pureblood who is cunning and ambitious would go to Slytherin. A > Pureblood was not brave, clever or loyal would go to Slytherin. A > cunning, ambitious Muggle-born or Half-blood would go to Hufflepuff. > But you could be an ambitious, cunning Pureblood who has absolutely > no delusions of superiority based on blood and end up in Slytherin. > > At least, that's the way I read the Sorting Hat. JKR may not agree > and it is afterall, her toy. zgirnius: Actually, a Half-Blood who is cunning and ambitious would go into Slytherin. At least, if his name happened to be Tom Riddle... ;-) Which makes me wonder, where would a cunning, ambitious Muggleborn go? I don't recall ever seeing canon assertion that there are no Muggleborns in Slytherin. (Certainly, if there are they must spend a lot of time avoiding Draco's little clique...but that might be why we have not met them yet.) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 22:20:33 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:20:33 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132397 Captain Neri looks astonished at the small flotilla gathering around him, above water and below it, all maneuvering for a better position on the lee side. "Shiver me timbers! We're surrounded!" He sneaks a look down the engine bay, which was hastily converted into an ammunition bay, "and nearly out of marine metaphors, too. OK, crew, forget about them canons! It's time for serious meta-thinking!" (to answer Dungrollin's query, in the suspicious absence of First Mate Alla, the crew of the ELKINS AVENGED consists mainly of Sailing Master Neri, Able Shipman Neri and Cabin Boy Neri, all wearing time turners around their necks. I suspect this isn't a unique phenomenon either. Haven't you noticed that as we are approaching July 16 the days seem to have more and more hours in them?) > Dungrollin: > Dumbledore not knowing whether Crouch Junior was innocent or not is > perfectly possible and compatible with the theory. DD probably knows > that the DEs tortured their way through the memory charm, and thinks > that the Longbottoms have no hope of recovery (FWIW, I hope they > don't recover, I like a good tragic past). He swallows Crouch > Senior's cover story, that the DEs attacked the Longbottoms because > they thought they knew what had happened to Voldemort after GH. > Crouch Senior is hardly going to admit that it was his slip of the > tongue that put Junior and co on the scent of the Longbottoms, is > he? He's set to lose enough from the whole horrible series of events > as it is. Junior is protesting his innocence, while Bonkers Bella > insists they were trying to find Voldy. Why should DD think Crouch > Senior let the info loose? > Actually, a little tweak and all is well. Crouch Senior not only > gets the Longbottoms to agree to have a memory charm, but he agrees > to have one himself, having been told at least about the existence > of the prophecy (if not the specific wording) by DD too. What he > lets slip to his son is that he and the Longbottoms "...had to have > memory charms, and it's so strange, isn't it? Because I obviously > can't remember why I needed it... leaves one a bit disoriented, you > know? Ah well, must get on with some work. You can amuse yourself, > can't you, Junior?" > > That way DD would never assume that it was Crouch Senior who put > Junior and the others onto the Longbottoms. > Neri: Erm , if Junior is dead, Senior was memory-harmed and now is also dead, the Longbottoms will never recover, and Bella and DD had never suspected, then how would Harry and us ever learn about the nice story above? Unless Junior told Voldy during the GoF year, and we will learn about it all from Voldy. But Voldy had Crouch Sr. conveniently at hand and nicely Imperio'ed during most of the GoF year, and *Voldy* canonically knew about the Longbottoms being prophecy second option, so he would have a very good guess what was it that Crouch Sr. and the Longbottoms had wanted to forget. Voldy is obsessed with the prophecy, remember? So why didn't he try to crack Crouch Sr. the same way he cracked Bertha and wrench the prophecy out of him? And if for some reason he failed in this, why didn't he go for Frank and Alice next? They were considerably less protected than the prophecy orb in the DoM. My conclusion: Voldy didn't have any reason to suspect from Crouch Jr.'s story that Crouch Sr. and the Longbottoms ever knew about the prophecy. Why? Perhaps because Junior told him what was it that the Longbottoms *really* knew, and it *wasn't* the prophecy. > Dungrollin: > Ah, now. You see, if I were patient and thorough and not prone to > constructing flimsy craft out of whatever materials were at hand, I > could make a good case that Neville's problems are *all* about > confidence, and nothing to do with memory charms at all. I think, > Neri, that you're possibly a little guilty of accepting a theory > (albeit a very convincing one) as canon here, no? > Neri: Nope. I even wrote that the possibility of "no memory charms at all" (neither Neville nor his parents) is still the most probable. I only pointed out that *if* Alice and Frank are memory-charmed but Neville doesn't, then JKR would look rather stupid when she finally reveals it. Either she has been foreshadowing memory-charms since SS/PS, or she hasn't, but if she has then leaving the foreshadowed person with only a non-magical explanation would be rather lame. If JKR wanted to have memory-charmed! Frank-and-Alice but merely-insecure!Neville, she could have easily afflicted him with some psychological problem other than a poor memory. > Dungrollin: > You remember when Crouch!Moody told Neville that Professor Sprout > had said he was good at Herbology? Do you think Professor Sprout > had ever said anything of the kind? No, neither do I. It was > simply Crouch!Moody's way of getting the book describing Gillyweed > into Harry's dormitory. From that moment on, though, from having had > no confidence in anything at all, Neville believes (erroneously) > that a *teacher* said that he's good at something. As his > confidence in Herbology increases, so do his marks, until Herbology > is clearly his best subject. And with a little confidence thus > gained, and a bit of fear and determination when the DEs escape > Azkaban, his confidence in DADA increases still further. Even > McGonagall says that in Transfiguration all he lacks is confidence, > she never upbraids him for forgetting incantations. Neri: Neville was good at Herbology since his first year: ***************************************************** SS/PS Ch. 17: To their great surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks; Hermione, of course, came top of the year. Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for his abysmal Potions one. ***************************************************** This is not to say that Neville *doesn't* have a confidence problem. He surely does, and it *can* fully explain his poor memory. I'm only saying that Neville having, for non-magical reasons, the very same problem his parents have for a magical reason would be kinda poor writing. > Dungrollin: > That's your case? Pah! It only seems a bit rubbish because I can't > work out why Who Knew About The Prophecy is going to be important. I > just can't quite work out where or how or by whom or when. Or why, > really. Whether it's important in terms of the backstory, or > important in terms of future events and so on and so forth. Neri: I hope I managed to explain above that my difficulty with Neville Isn't Memory Charmed But His Parents Are has nothing to do with any possible backstory or plot or anything. It's meta-thinking. It simply seems like a blunder that JKR could have easily avoided by giving Neville another type of a psychological problem. Mooseming, piloting her new MINISUB, wrote: > Ah, there's the > leverage! Barty Jnr places Neville under the Imperious curse > compelling him to "Find Harry Potter and befriend him. Tell the toad > all. Further instructions to follow." An Imperious curse, > experienced at such a tender age, leaves Neville's mind confused, > the only indication, however, is a poor memory. The DE's are > captured but not before they have created a sleeper agent. Neri: My problem with Imperio'ed!Neville is very similar to my problem with Neville Isn't Memory Charmed But His Parents Are. If JKR *hasn't* been foreshadowing any magically-afflicted!Neville then this is all just us overanalyzing the text, and we're all heading fast for the bottom of Theory Bay. But if she *has* been foreshadowing it, then a memory charm is the obvious candidate. Now, if JKR shouts in the end of HBP: "Ha! Fooled ya! It's *not* a memory charm! It's a Forgetfulness Potion!" then this would be fair nuff, because the symptoms of Forgetfulness Potion are (presumably) forgetfulness, and Neville (as JKR has been telling us over and over) is a forgetful boy. In fact, a Forgetfulness Potion would be a rather typical JKR sneakiness, springing on us a tiny detail that was waiting quietly in the corner since SS/PS, while in the meantime there was much ado about memory charms. But JKR shouting "Ha! Fooled ya! It's *not* a memory charm! It's an Imperio!" sounds to me rather like cheating, unless she had planted some canon that Imperio might have a forgetfulness effect. Had she? JKR had shown us the effect of Imperio from the PoV of Harry himself as a victim, more than once, and I don't remember it including any forgetfulness. She showed us Crouch Sr. at Hogwarts while he was imperio'ed (GoF, Ch. 17) and he seemed eerie and distant, but he didn't forget anything, except when he called Percy "Weatherby", but he already started doing that during the QWC, before he was Imperio'ed. Now, in the forest (Ch.28) he did seem to forget where he was from time to time, except that it wasn't really forgetfulness but more the opposite: he was suddenly living again moments from his past, and he was taking to trees as if they were people. In any case it was nothing like what Neville had ever done. Mooseming: > In the future Neville will learn that Harry is the chosen one and he > is not, that Harry is the reason his parents were attacked, they > suffered because of Harry and not in defence of their own son. > Neville may become resentful he may, provoked by a latent Imperio, > betray Harry. Neri (meta-thinking again): If this is what JKR has in store for us, shouldn't she have written Neville as less of a bungler? As an unsuspected enemy he's not very scary. What is he going to do? Point his wand at Harry and shout "Ibperio!" ? > Dungrollin: > By the way, Neri, I've been meaning to ask (and sorry for crossing > TBAYs), but how is the VASSAL coping with "In choosing which boy to > murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to > anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard > possessed - the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window > into Voldemort's mind?" (JKR's most recent FAQ answer.) Neri: I truly don't see why the above constitutes any problem for VASSAL. Could you elaborate? And on the subject of VASSAL, SSSusan asked: > How *do* you manage to pilot both the VASSAL and the > ELKINS AVENGED??" Neri: I don't. Not enough time turners for that . As I wrote in #130838, I experimented a lot with the design of the VASSAL but nothing really satisfied me, so I left her by the dock to fend for herself in the hurricane. She might survive it, or not. Of course, if another captain wants to take care of her, be my guest. > SSSusan: > We've still got margarita fixin's on the DRIBBLE SHADOWS. You're > welcome to set your gangplank against her & come aboard! Neri: Margaritas, eh? What kind of seamanship is that, I ask you. It seems there are certain captains around here who still think this is some kind of a *pleasure cruise*. Wait for July 16, all I say. Now, how about some rum? Neri From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 22:21:39 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:21:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin = James: not so STAGgering (sorry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006b01c5859d$bef16d20$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132398 Thanks for the thoughtful response. It turns out that I am slightly obsessed with this theory, and so I am really familiar with JKR's responses on this matter. Maybe I am a whacko "true believer", but I think it is pretty easy to read all of JKR's responses and still believe that James could be Lupin. The key is to know that it was neither James nor Lupin who did the switch: it was Lily, perhaps with the help of McGonagal, on the night of the LV attack. I believe this was done without James or Lupin's knowledge, and against their will. Lily didn't intend for Lupin to die, either. She had a plan that she thought would work perfectly, and it almost did. I believe we will learn about that plan in HBP. And of course I agree completely with JKR: James did not intend to save himself, and has been completely tortured by the turn of events for all these years. But he has accepted his duty of watching out for his son, nonetheless. Jake Sherry now: I have two objections to this theory. First of all, JKR has said on more than one occasion that James and Lily are dead, and that the dead don't come back. This is why I don't hope for Sirius to return, even though I so don't want him to be really dead. But for me, an even bigger objection to this theory being true is the incredible cruelty to Harry. If James is alive in the body of Lupin, he must be a monster to have let his son live with the abusive Dursleys all these years, suffer the pain of having no parents, go through learning to love Sirius only to lose him again, repeatedly be faced with being alone in the worst times of his life, longing for a parent that he does not have. In spite of what we saw in the pensive about James, I just can't believe that James was that much of a fiend, to do that to his son. If it ends up being true, Harry would be understandable if he hated his father forever for being abandoned so terribly. To me, there is no excuse, unless James doesn't know he is James, that could justify this. Lily would be a monster too. Sherry From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 21:33:27 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:33:27 -0000 Subject: Prediction about book 6 (old SPOILER from JKR website) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132399 > > philippajrice: > > released on J K Rowling's website on August 16th. > > > > "(He) looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey > > in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen > > yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a > > certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight > > limp." > > > > It must be a description of a new character. > > Brian: > I personally doubt that this description is that of a "corporeal" > character .... I think that the individual described in the > passage is an image taken from .... Slytherin's pensieve. > Which could, if true, mean that the image is probably that of, hold > on to your broomsticks, Godric Gryffindor himself! .... joyfulstoryteller: I find both of these ideas intriguing. I definitely believe that we will find out that there IS a connection between Harry and Godric Gryffindor of some sort. But I have also been thinking about JKR's coy responses to questions about married professors, and I am currently suspecting that this new individual will be McGonagal's husband. (I can't remember which interview gives us the info that she's married... or maybe we just know that some professors are married, and I assumed that Minerva was one of them). Let the protests begin... joyfulstoryteller From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 22:24:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:24:40 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132400 > zgirnius: > Actually, a Half-Blood who is cunning and ambitious would go into > Slytherin. At least, if his name happened to be Tom Riddle... ;-) > Which makes me wonder, where would a cunning, ambitious Muggleborn go? a_svirn: Cunning, ambitious muggleborn? To Gryffindor, at least, if her name happens to be Hermione Granger. From cottell at dublin.ie Sun Jul 10 22:33:50 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:33:50 -0000 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: <001d01c57ee8$8278e280$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > As we're all aware, HBP comes out two weeks today. One disadvantage I have > as a blind person is that I won't get to listen to the book until 25th > August, which is when the UK audio version comes out. By this time, > discussions will have started within this and other groups, thereby spoiling > it for me before I get the chance to read it. Does anyone know of any > websites, please, where I can read the book when it comes out - only read > it, not downloading? > > Derek Derek, I don't know if you frequent Mugglenet, but they've just reported this evening that 973FM radio, in Brisbane, is going to do a complete reading of HBP next Saturday. It will be a once off and won't be recorded, but you can listen live over the internet at http://www.973fm.com.au/ It starts at 9.01 Australian Standard time, and is projected to last for 12 hours. I thought this might help you! Mus From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 22:25:55 2005 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:25:55 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132402 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She is distantly related to Godric Gryffindor 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Minerva McGonagal's Husband, someone out of retirement, or Nymphadora Tonks. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood or Parvati Patil, Ginny will have to wait until Year 7. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Either Amelia Bones, or a previously unsuspected Death Eater, I haven't decided if the new MoM will be a help or a hinderance. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes (He's really very intelligent, has gained confidence, and the exam was not brooded over by Snape) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Ten (10) Predictions (0-10 points each): * Harry will learn about the book that records the names of magical children for Hogwarts. * We will learn that Neville was a victim of the Cruciatus Curse as an infant, which he is finally starting to overcome the results of. (Both his parents were cursed, and the DE's may have first cursed Neville by way of an inducement... note the way Neville reacts to the dementors on the train in PoA, and to the Cruciatus Curse being cast on the spider in DADA by Fake Moody). * Harry is a metamorphmagus. * Bill and Fleur will get married at the beginning of the book, which is why Harry leaves the Dursley's early. * Ron will finally admit his attraction to Hermione. * Dumbeldore will personally tutor Harry in Legillimency and Occlumency, which will make him vulnerable to Voldemort. * We will learn what really happened in Godric's Hollow, and what happened during the "missing" 24 hours. joyfulstoryteller From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 00:04:41 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:04:41 EDT Subject: HBP contest entry Message-ID: <55.76e4ffd8.30031199@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132403 Since I never sent my first entry to Tigerpatronus, and now I can't locate it, I'll try again. I think I remember my predictions... << Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The Old Lion Guy, who is Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big secret will be reviewed in Book 6. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley, just because I want him to be. Plus I think we would get some interesting interactions between him and Snape. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think he'll have a brief "fling" (i.e., flirtation/a date) with Susan Bones. I'd love for it to be a Slytherin girl, but I'll stick with Susan. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. I'm being very hopeful here, I know. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ancient Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course, or how else would he and Snape continue sniping at each other? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope, Neville will focus on his strengths as the battle looms. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Er, I think I said 7. So 7 it is. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. >> 1. We will find out what happened at Godric's Hollow (as it is the long-delayed first chapter JKR contemplated for other books in the series but saved for HBP). 2. Petunia will perform magic while under duress/attack against her family. 3. We will find out the significance of the Drobble's bubble gum wrappers Alice Longbottom keeps giving Neville. 4. A "good" Slytherin (perhaps more than one) will be revealed, most likely in the person of Theo Nott. 5. Unlike the previous five books, book Six will end in a flat out cliffhanger, leaving the fate of several characters in question, and leading to groans of dismay--and undignified wheedling for JKR to write faster, please, please, PLEASE--throughout HP fandom. (Okay, I think I forgot a former prediction or two, but this can be my official version!) Julie From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Jul 11 01:47:05 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:47:05 -0000 Subject: Lupin = James: not so STAGgering (sorry) In-Reply-To: <006b01c5859d$bef16d20$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132404 --- "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > > ... all of JKR's responses and still believe that James could > be Lupin. The key is to know that it was neither James nor > Lupin who did the switch: it was Lily, ... I believe this was > done without James or Lupin's knowledge, and against their > will. ... She had a plan ... we will learn about that plan in HBP. > > And of course I agree completely with JKR: James did not intend to > save himself, and has been completely tortured by the turn of > events for all these years. But he has accepted his duty of > watching out for his son, nonetheless. > > Jake > > Sherry now: > > I have two objections to this theory. First of all, JKR has said > on more than one occasion that James and Lily are dead, ... > > But for me, an even bigger objection ...is the incredible cruelty > to Harry. If James is alive in the body of Lupin, he must be a > monster to have let his son live with the abusive Dursleys ... I > just can't believe that James was that much of a fiend, to > do that to his son. ... > To me, there is no excuse, ... that could justify this. > > Sherry aussie: Monster? of course James would be a monster if he was in a warewolf's body. Lupin had a hard time fitting in till 3 good friends risked themselves as illegal animagi to help him live with his monthly transformation. Now imagine trying to raise a baby with that problem. The Dursleys (spied on by OOTP members) would be a safer, although not more loving, option. I don't give much chance for that theory being true if JKR said "thanx but no thanx", but I can understand why those friends left Harry with the Dursley for so long. Lupin may give Harry a love bite at the worse possible time Black redirected his mail to Azkaban Peter was dead (in OOTP eyes) James was dead aussie: From ccampboyle at comcast.net Mon Jul 11 02:33:02 2005 From: ccampboyle at comcast.net (ccampboyle) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:33:02 -0000 Subject: Why Voldemort didn't die / what will happen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132405 Well, here goes my first post since shortly after OotP came out. It seems that LV must have transferred more than just some powers to Harry. When Harry first reads Tom Riddle's name on the back of the diary in CoS, it seems familiar to him. Some of LV's memories must have also been transferred to Harry. Might those memories (both in Harry and in the diary)give Voldemort a toe-hold on life? Furthermore, we know, from CoS, that a memory, under the right circumstances, can come back to life by drawing on the life energy of someone else, e.g. Tom drawing on Ginny. Several other pieces of information: - The use of Harry's finger to bring back LV brought a gleam to DD's eye. - Harry can project himself into LV (although he doesn't yet seem to be able to control this as well as LV can control his projection into Harry). - LV fears death more than anything, and wizards who fear death may choose to become a ghost. - Harry has reached the point where many of those he most cares about, and wishes to be reunited with, have died. What if LV dies while Harry is projecting himself into him? Would Harry be able to overcome LVs fear, and cause him to "go on", thus saving the WW from a ghost-Voldemort, and reuniting him with those he loves? What, then, happens to Harry's body, since Harry was projecting himself into LV? Would Harry's consciousness return to it, or, rather, would Tom Riddle's memory live on in Harry's body? A Tom Riddle who now has the experience of Harry's life, and of being loved? Would this new Tom Riddle be a "saved" Tom Riddle? Thus we would have a bittersweet ending, in which Harry saves the WW, saves Tom Riddle, and is reunited with his loved ones? (I can just hear the howls from parents who think the outcome endorses teen suicide -- well, JKR never did claim to be writing a children's series.) It seems like a riff on Lord of the Rings, where Gandalf would like to see Smeagol saved, in much the same way that I think DD would like to see Tom saved, as is indicated by his insistence on calling him Tom when he speaks to him.) In this version, Harry, like Frodo, saves the day, but not himself, yet he also saves Tom, something Frodo didn't do for Gollum, although he tried. Somehow, though, I think Tom will also have to make a choice, since, as DD says, we are known by our choices -- even if Harry does have a "saving people thing." Cathy (who is hung up on unified theories that explain everything) From grega126 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 06:50:43 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:50:43 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132406 So this thought got me out of bed and onto my computer. Two weeks ago, there was an argument being held at this site as to whether or not Snape is a good teacher. The question being, if Harry, Neville, Ron, et. al get E's and O's on their Potions OWL, does that make Snape a good teacher? I think the one, has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Tell Dumbledore on the day that Harry's parents died that Voldemort is coming back in 15 years. Tell him he has two choices for his new potions master: one who will make sure every single student who walks through his class room gets an O on their exam, but when Voldemort returns, loses his whole house to Voldemort's ranks. The other is a jerk, whom no one will like. Who will treat 3/4 of students unfairly, who may or may not be a good enough teacher to get any of his students through an exam. But, during those 15 years, he develops enough close relationships with the students in his house, the Voldemort has to go elsewhere for his DE's. Who is DD going to choose? I think it has to be taken for granted that DD'd rather have the guy who's going to keep the next generation of Slytherin house out of Voldemort's clutches. Draco (for instance) hates Harry. Draco sees that Snape hates Harry. Draco goes to his head of house, says, "My dad wants me to become a DE, I'm not sure that I want to start killing people, what do you think?" Without Snape at Hogwarts, who would he go to to talk about that decision? Would that then make him more likely to become a DE? Harry's grandparent's generation of Slytherin produced LV, Harry's parent's generation produced his DE's, is 15 years of Snape running Slytherin house enough to stop the trend? In conclusion, Snape is going to be judged a good teacher or a bad one, not on the results his students get on their exams, but the results they get in life. How many Slytherins of the past 15 years become DE's? How many will join the Order of the Phoenix? The answer to that, and that alone, will determine his success as a teacher. Greg From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 07:31:25 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:31:25 -0000 Subject: Flamel for DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <491d4249575f.49575f491d42@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132407 > brossiter: > > That's not necessarily accurate. All JKR said in response to the rumour > question about Flamel potentially being a new potions instructor was > that Flamel has "now died." This does not necessarily disqualify Flamel > from a teaching post at Hogwarts - just ask Professor Binns. Indeed, > given the possibility that Flamel might continue to exist in this world > as a ghost, JKR did not really give a definitive answer to this rumour > question. > > That being said, given what we now know about who becomes a ghost and > who does not, courtesy of Nearly Headless Nick, I doubt seriously that > Nicholas Flamel is now a ghost or otherwise failed to properly pass > through the veil. He's already had an extra 600+ years on earth, and > probably has seen and done everything he thought worth seeing or doing. > Ghost or not, if Flamel had truly been the best qualified DADA > instructor or otherwise had crucial information to convey to Hogwarts > DADA students (Harry or whomever), and was truly amenable to such a > posting, then Dumbledore would never have hired Gilderoy Lockhart, nor > would have he been unable to fill the post prior to Harry's fifth year. Finwitch: Well, unless N. Flamel flat out refused. I don't think that Nicholas becomes a ghost, since he did, in a way, choose his death. I wonder just exactly what JKR meant with the 'now' in Flamel has now died. Does it mean he dies in HBP or the 7th book ('now' to mean she recently wrote it) or that he died during OOP (meaning 'now' as during a book we've read but Harry didn't find out) or even now to refer to her declaration. Further, JKR said Flamel not Flamels. Possibly meaning Nicolas (since the question was about him). Perenelle Flamel might still be alive. *She* may well be their next instructor for Potions or DADA. Finwitch From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Jul 11 07:36:30 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:36:30 EDT Subject: clues to HP crossword puzzle Message-ID: <1f1.3f48c67a.30037b7e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132408 _http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2320/nythpclues5oc.jpg_ (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2320/nythpclues5oc.jpg) Susan McGee SusanGSMcGee at aol.com 707-441-1434 FAIR USE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material available for educational purposes to advance our understanding of social justice and human rights issues. I believe this constitutes a 'fair use" of any such copyrighted material as provided for in Section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C Section 107, the material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. If you wish to use this material for purposes of your own that go beyond "fair use", you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 10:05:57 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:05:57 -0000 Subject: Is Wizard law sexist? Was: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132409 The discussion of common vs. civil law, primogeniture and entails has been fascinating, but it makes me wonder: Law and tradition that favor males (it seems to me) come into being because, not to put too fine a point on it, men are bigger and stronger than women, and can make such things stick. True enough for Muggles, but not necessarily so for magical people--I see no reason in canon to believe that witches are generally less powerful than wizards. If a witch is as likely as a wizard to win a fight, should we expect that inheritance laws would favor wizards over witches? Amiable Dorsai From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 10:47:54 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:47:54 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132410 > zgirnius replies: > Oh, I agree Hermione has an (excessive, irrational) fear of failing > in her schoolwork, but there seems to me to be a lot of support for > the idea that she is genuinely interested in learning and > scholarship. For one thing, her reaction to Sybill Trelawney mirrors > McGonagall's-they both dislike her becasue they see her as a fraud. > (Contrast this to Hermione's remarks about Arithmancy...so > interesting!) > > Also, so often the knowledge she has gleaned from books is completely > beyond or unrelated to her immediate coursework, suggesting she > looked it up out of curiosity. For example, the Polyjuice Potion in > CoS. Yes, Snape mentioned it in class, and that prompted her to look > it up. But he also indicated it was way too advanced (I can't track > down my copy just now, but he indicated it was either OWL or NEWT > level, as I recall.) A student concerned primarily with passing the > next exam would spend her time studying the material she knows will > be on it. So I can definitely see why the SH would want to sort her > into Ravenclaw. Finwitch: She's terrified she'll fail her schoolwork and be expelled for it (her comment: we could've been killed or worse - expelled). So, what does she do? Memorizes the textbooks & gets what information she can of Hogwarts before the school even begins. But her fear is not eased by just that - nor by her making excellent grades... so she must be studying and studying for her fear, from books. As for Trelawney: First thing she tells them is that 'you can learn only so much from books' - 'without an inborn talent you're not likely to gain much' - 'Hermione's mundane mind is not suited for divianation'. Add that to the fact that Hermione was getting grumpy due to her Timeturner... McGonagall has her issues about Trelawney and that Divination is the most inexact art - Hermione's the one who totally disregards it and even develops contempt for the *entire* subject. That's not what I'd say an intelligent person with genuine love of learning would do. Hers is more like a defence reaction: "What I cannot learn isn't worth learning" or that "McGonacall said that true Seers are rare" - reference to an authority-figure who's not an expert of the field is NOT logical, and rarity does not equal non-existant as Hermione wants to believe. It's only after they encounter the real prophecies in the Ministry of Magic that finally proves to her that True Prophecies do exist - something Harry discovered in PoA, by witnessing one himself. Hermione didn't believe him any more than she believes Luna about Snorkacks... Besides, Trelawneys predictions DO happen. None that she's predicted death to had died as far as MM knew as of that moment in PoA BUT - were Cedric Diggory or Bertha Jorkins persons she had predicted to die? Or Percy? At any case, people DO die unless they're taking Elixire of Life, and no one can make that anymore... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 10:58:10 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:58:10 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldrons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132411 > Adi: > Hey, it was me who posted that original message. Thanks for finding so > much about cauldrons. But I also had another point to make. Everyone > says that on the frontcover, Harry and Dumbledore are looking into > pensieve. But wasn't pensieve a device which could be held in hands? > This looks too big to be a pensieve. Finwitch: Or a prototype of a Pensieve. Maybe it belonged to C. Gryffindor or something like that... Of course they became smaller and handier in time. (much like computers - just think of it: a laptop computer is cabable of holding more information than the first ones that filled an entire room...) Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 12:03:20 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:03:20 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132412 > Finwitch: > > She's terrified she'll fail her schoolwork and be expelled for it > (her comment: we could've been killed or worse - expelled). So, what > does she do? Memorizes the textbooks & gets what information she can > of Hogwarts before the school even begins. > > But her fear is not eased by just that - nor by her making excellent > grades... so she must be studying and studying for her fear, from > books. > Add that to the fact that Hermione was getting grumpy > due to her Timeturner... Amiable Dorsai: Erm... Why would a person who was driven only by a fear of failure, rather than by a genuine love of learning, use a Time-Turner to take extra classes? Wouldn't that increase her chances of failure? Amiable Dorsai From cottell at dublin.ie Mon Jul 11 12:31:28 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:31:28 -0000 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" > wrote: > Derek, I don't know if you frequent Mugglenet, but they've just > reported this evening that 973FM radio, in Brisbane, is going to do a > complete reading of HBP next Saturday. > > It will be a once off and won't be recorded, but you can listen live > over the internet at http://www.973fm.com.au/ It starts at 9.01 > Australian Standard time, and is projected to last for 12 hours. > > I thought this might help you! > > Mus The Leaky Cauldron has posted an update to this information. Sadly, the readings will be in front of a bookshop, and NOT broadcast. So I apologise for any hopes I may have raised and now dashed. :( Mus From rkelley at blazingisp.net Mon Jul 11 07:38:57 2005 From: rkelley at blazingisp.net (Rick & LeAnn Kelley) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:38:57 -0500 Subject: HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132414 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Snape. His father was a titled vampire. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an Unspeakable working on the power of love in the DOM 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Godric Gryffindor's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six, in DADA, Potions, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms and Transfiguration. He missed Astronomy and Divination. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Narcissa Malfoy is a metamorphmagus and will sneak into Hogwarts to do dastardly deeds. 2. Hagrid and Madame Maxime marry. 3. Trevor the Toad and/or Mrs. Norris are humans who were transfigured. 4. Snape brews a potion for Harry that will "put a stopper in death" and Harry walks through the veil, then returns unharmed. 5. The Lovegoods find a crumpled-horn snorkack. (Predictions I wish would happen but have little hope.) 6. Lucius Malfoy discovers he was adopted and he is really a muggle. 7. Sirius Black was transfigured by his brother Regulus into Trevor the Toad, and Regulus took his identity in order to escape Voldy's wrath. It was actually Regulus who was killed in OOTP. 8. Grawp and Dolores Umbridge fell in love during her sojourn in the forest, and he carries her away to his mountain hideaway where they have twelve half-human, half-giant children. On the back of Grawp's hand is etched, "My wife is always right." 9. Draco sneaks out some of the forbidden dark arts artifacts from beneath his family's drawing room, tries to use them against Harry, but they backfire on himself and he permanently becomes the amazing bouncing ferret. 10. Trelawney's room is always hot and perfumed because the "sleeping dragon of Hogwarts" lives in her tower, and he makes the heat. She sprays perfume to cover his dragon breath. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 12:56:24 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana Lucas) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP Prediction contest entry Message-ID: <20050711125625.83583.qmail@web50402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132415 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Nymphadora Tonks Percy Weasley In addition, Mundungus Fletcher, Auror Dawlish and Bellatrix Lestrange will die. Several older, recently-graduated Hogwarts students that the trio and the readers don't really know well will also die. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily dated Lupin at Hogwarts before she dated James. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character we've never met before. Harry will still continue teaching the DA group on the side, however, with Dumbledore's blessing. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Harry begins to notice Ginny Weasley (because of her being captain of the Gryffindor team) in a boy-likes-girl way, but hides it because of Ron's reaction to Ginny's last two boyfriends. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones (Susan Bones' Auntie) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ancient devise that allows communcation with one or more of the founders of Hogwarts, not through their ghosts or thoughts, but more like an interactive recorded history lesson of which specific questions can be asked and answered. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Though he won't enjoy it, he will do much better this year. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, (he gets an O in his owls) because he will be guilted into by his grandmother and other family members. He also wants to be as prepared as possible for the coming battle. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Herbology E DADA O Care of Magical Creatures O Astronomy A Divination A History of Magic A Potions O Transfiguration E Charms O For a total of four owls. Predictions (0-10 points each): Harry will disappear, causing Ron and Hermione, along with others, to believe that Harry has been kidnapped and killed by Voldemort, but then Harry will reappear, having been exploring hidden rooms and caverns (and gaining important knowledge regarding the history of Hogwarts and its founders) beneath the castle. Draco will meet Voldemort and not enjoy the experience as Voldemort won't like him and will express it. Harry will inheirit 12 Grimmauld Place, but will not want to live there without Serius. He will deed it to the Order of the Phoenix. Ginny will be a Griffindor Chaser. Harry will resume his position as Seeker. Ron will continue being Keeper. Ginny will be voted captain of the team, and be a better captain than Wood and Angelina were. Hermione and Ron will both be able to see thestrals by the end of HBP. Diana L. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 13:08:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:07 -0000 Subject: Flamel for DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132416 Finwitch wrote: Well, unless N. Flamel flat out refused. I don't think that Nicholas becomes a ghost, since he did, in a way, choose his death. I wonder just exactly what JKR meant with the 'now' in Flamel has now died. Does it mean he dies in HBP or the 7th book ('now' to mean she recently wrote it) or that he died during OOP (meaning 'now' as during a book we've read but Harry didn't find out) or even now to refer to her declaration. Further, JKR said Flamel not Flamels. Possibly meaning Nicolas (since the question was about him). Perenelle Flamel might still be alive. *She* may well be their next instructor for Potions or DADA. vmonte: I think that DD also explains in SS/PS that both Pernelle and Nicolas are going to die. I think that JKR is serous when she says that Nicolas is dead, and I'm not sure that he will come back as a ghost since he and Pernelle seem to have accepted their destiny in SS/PS (at least it seems that way according to what DD tells Harry in SS/PS). I do wonder however if the brain that attacked Ron in OOTP might have belonged to Flamel. If so, Ron might start having some important memories. I just don't see why JKR would add the brain bit into OOTP unless she planned on using the attack as a way to give us some information about events from the past. She could pretty much use Ron as a means of getting important information to her readers. Ron could be a "human penseive" so to speak. Perhaps Flamel has information regarding Godric Gryffindor, Salazar, Grindelwald, etc. Vivian From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 13:30:15 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:30:15 -0000 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "muscatel1988" wrote: > The Leaky Cauldron has posted an update to this information. Sadly, > the readings will be in front of a bookshop, and NOT broadcast. So I > apologise for any hopes I may have raised and now dashed. :( There's no way the publishers would have let something like this be broadcast - too easy for someone to record it! They're not in the business of allowing people to get a "Free" copy of the book, in either printed or audio format. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 13:13:51 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:13:51 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132418 wrote: > Geoff: > But aren't you forgetting something? > > 'Moody's face was suddenly lit with an insane smile. > "Tell me he told them that I, I alone remained faithful... prepared > to risk everything to deliver to him the one thing he wanted above > all... you" > "You didn't... it - it can't be you..." > "Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire under the name of a > different school? I did."' > I know that Moody/Crouch Jr. threw his name in. But everyone is running around worried about who might have wanted to put Harry in danger, and speculating about Karkaroff and death eaters and Voldemort and so on, when no one says "anyone of age could have put it in" and interrogated all the 17 yr olds in the school with veritaserum. But regardless, my further point is that it's a very weak spot in the story - you have this Goblet, which doesn't care how old the students are, you have the schools agreeing on an age limit, Dumbledore puts in an age line preventing underagers from putting their names in, but NOTHING to prevent an of-ager from putting ANYONE's name in - and since the Goblet's choice creates a magical pact, no one could do anything if an underager was put in there and selected! And yet when Harry's name comes out, everyone is flabbergasted - did the trick the age line? Did he ask an older student? No... well then SOMEONE wants him DEAD and we better all be careful!!! No one speculates that it was just another student playing a prank. Bizarre. - davenclaw From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 13:54:09 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:54:09 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- DEADLINE NOW 12 Midnight Thursday/Fri AM EDT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132419 Because that radio station in Australia is going to read HBP aloud, the official deadline for the HBP prediction contest has been moved UP to Thursday at midnight. Any entry reaching my email inbox on Friday or later will be DQ'ed. If you're going to enter, you have three days left. TK -- TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 13:57:01 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:57:01 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 3 days left -- email entry to Tiger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132420 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com* and to the newsgroup. You must email your entry to TigerPatronus to be entered in the contest. You will receive an email confirmation of your entry. Deadline: Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 11:59 pm (midnight) EDT. Note that the time has changed due to that radio station in Australia that will be reading HBP aloud. Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. Predictions that only describe the covers are worth no points. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or another superlative title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. From shalimar07 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 13:42:34 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:42:34 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132421 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She saved Riddle's life at one time and he owed her. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, the one described as lion-like. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. If Lucius was not in prison he would probably have `bought'the election. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. He needs to learn to stopper death.. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Five Predictions: Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. We'll find out that the Homorphus charm is real and be able to free Lupin from his monthly curse. 2. Dragons Blood is `not' a Dragon's blood but a bright red gum from the Dragon tree that grows in the ahem...Canary Islands. It is used in ancient Roman and mediaeval magic 3. Harry discovers that his mother's memories are stored in a pensieve and he'll be able to see what happened that night in Godric's Hollow. 4. That Bill and Fleur will marry. 5. Dumbledore will become a better mentor than he has in the past because he knows he doesn't have much time left before he ahem...is gone. Shalimar From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 11 14:09:26 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:09:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D27D96.6090805@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132422 davenclaw wrote: >I know that Moody/Crouch Jr. threw his name in. But everyone is >running around worried about who might have wanted to put Harry in >danger, and speculating about Karkaroff and death eaters and >Voldemort and so on, when no one says "anyone of age could have put >it in" and interrogated all the 17 yr olds in the school with >veritaserum. > >But regardless, my further point is that it's a very weak spot in >the story - you have this Goblet, which doesn't care how old the >students are, you have the schools agreeing on an age limit, >Dumbledore puts in an age line preventing underagers from putting >their names in, but NOTHING to prevent an of-ager from putting >ANYONE's name in - and since the Goblet's choice creates a magical >pact, no one could do anything if an underager was put in there and >selected! And yet when Harry's name comes out, everyone is >flabbergasted - did the trick the age line? Did he ask an older >student? No... well then SOMEONE wants him DEAD and we better all >be careful!!! No one speculates that it was just another student >playing a prank. Bizarre. > heather now: I think you have a very good point here. I'm going to fanwank that the Goblet normally 'recognizes' if the person submitting a name is the same person named on the paper. If it were as simple as just getting an older student to put your name in, then yeah the Weasley twins (and others) would certainly have just got older students to put their names in. So either the Goblet (heh, I originally mistyped "Boglet" and just found that really amusing) recognizes the identity of the person, or perhaps it doesn't allow the same person to submit a name twice (so no 17-year-olds were available to put in younger kids' names since they wanted to put their own in). If the former, then presumable while Moody was tricking the Goblet into accepting a 'fourth school' he was also tricking it into thinking he was the person named on his submission (heck, he knows about Polyjuice potion, maybe he even WAS Harry). If the latter, then all Moody had to do was trick it about the school, as he said. In either case, something didn't get mentioned in the canon descriptions of events, or else I'm missing something (which is still possible lol), but it's possible to explain it still, I think... heather the buzzard From aburgess68 at comcast.net Mon Jul 11 14:25:01 2005 From: aburgess68 at comcast.net (Angela Burgess) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:25:01 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132423 "greg_a126" wrote: "Tell him he has two choices for his new potions master: one who will make sure every single student who walks through his class room gets an O on their exam, but when Voldemort returns, loses his whole house to Voldemort's ranks. The other is a jerk, whom no one will like. Who will treat 3/4 of students unfairly, who may or may not be a good enough teacher to get any of his students through an exam. But, during those 15 years, he develops enough close relationships with the students in his house, the Voldemort has to go elsewhere for his DE's. Who is DD going to choose?" "In conclusion, Snape is going to be judged a good teacher or a bad one, not on the results his students get on their exams, but the results they get in life. How many Slytherins of the past 15 years become DE's? How many will join the Order of the Phoenix? The answer to that, and that alone, will determine his success as a teacher." MmeBurgess says... I have to say that I agree with you. As a teacher, I would far rather affect my students' lives in a positive manner into their adulthood than rely on their ability to conjugate French verbs as a 35-year-old. However, many people would disagree with both of us. There are many people who believe that the job of a teacher is to simply teach their subject the best as is possible and leave all students alone outside of class. To these people, I say, look at Lupin. He taught his subject with great ability AND made a lasting impact on his students because he got to know them as real people. His views will affect students (not just HRH) long into adulthood. The only problem that I have with Snape is as a teacher, I disagree with his teaching methods. I believe that he could be just as favoring to Slytherins without the cruelness towards students of other houses (e.g., Hermione's teeth, Neville's nervousness, etc.). But if, as Greg says, it saves 15 years of Slytherins from becoming DEs, then I will manage to forgive him. --MmeBurgess From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 14:32:10 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:32:10 -0000 Subject: Flamel for DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: Finwitch wrote: Perenelle Flamel might still be alive. *She* may well be their next instructor for Potions or DADA. Vivian said: I do wonder however if the brain that attacked Ron in OOTP might have belonged to Flamel. If so, Ron might start having some important memories. I just don't see why JKR would add the brain bit into OOTP unless she planned on using the attack as a way to give us some information about events from the past. She could pretty much use Ron as a means of getting important information to her readers. Ron could be a "human penseive" so to speak. Perhaps Flamel has information regarding Godric Gryffindor, Salazar, Grindelwald, etc. > Tonks: First I think that both of the Flamels are dead and not ghost. And IMO they are not the DADA type. Flamel was an alchemist and as such would be more likely to be a potions master than a DADA instructor. Also since DD was his partner, I am sure that Flamel told DD all of the secrets that anyone needed to know. The brain being that of someone important is interesting, however. Scary too. I hope it doesn't mess Ron up in any way. Still, one wonders why it is there. Of course, the MoM could be studying the brain the same as any scientist would. I just hope it isn't the brain of someone evil. Tonks_op From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 14:52:43 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:52:43 -0000 Subject: If I were a sorting hat... - Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132425 Finwitch wrote: " (Hermione)'s studious, yes. Why? To satisfy her ambition but more importantly, because she's afraid to fail. No - as much as she studies and appreciates academical knowledge, she's not really, deep inside, all *that* fit for Ravenclaw. A typical Ravenclaw, I believe, enjoys studying for the sake of studying... not Hermione. (they say it's the best...)" Del replies: I couldn't disagree more. Before she even got to Hogwarts, Hermione had already read (all?) the textbooks. On top of that, she'd also read "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century", "Modern Magical History" and "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts", if I'm not mistaken (don't have my books with me). She also OWNS "Hogwarts, a History" that she had read at least once before starting her second year. While in second year, she started reading "Ancient Runes Made Easy". She wanted the "New Theory of Numerology", that Harry got her as a Christmas present. I also remember a mention that she had got some big book from the library as "light reading". It seems obvious to me that Hermione *loves learning*. Isn't it, after all, the very reason she couldn't NOT take one of the new subjects in her third year? Not even Muggle studies? It seems to me that the only reason she would over-burden herself that way is because she cannot stand the idea of letting an opportunity to learn pass by her. As someone else pointed out, if she were only motivated by fear of failure, then it would be extremely illogical of her to take so many subjects in PoA. The more subjects, the higher the risk of failure (you have to pass more exams to succeed perfectly), and the less time to work on each subject, thus augmenting the risk of failure yet again. Oh, and let's not forget what happens when she sets foot in the Room of Requirement in OoP: she grabs a book, sits down, and starts reading. It is pretty clear to me that Hermione loves learning for the sake of learning, studying for the sake of studying. And THAT is the VERY reason she is so afraid of being expelled: because she knows full well (for having read it in a book IIRC) that Hogwarts is the only wizard school in the UK. Get expelled from Hogwarts, and you lose all chances of getting a wizarding education... Del From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 15:03:30 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:03:30 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: <42D27D96.6090805@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132426 > karenabarker: > Goblet of Fire - UK paperback - page 243 - 'The Four Champions' > > "Did you ask an older student to put it [Harry's name] into the Goblet > of Fire for you?" said Professor Dumbledore, ignoring Snape, > "No" said Harry vehemently. > > Sherrie: > That just shows that Harry didn't WILLINGLY have his name put in - it > doesn't say that someone (e.g., that 17-year-old Slytherin) didn't put Harry's name > in without his knowledge or consent. > > > Geoff: > > But aren't you forgetting something? > > "Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire under the name of a > > different school? I did."' > > davenclaw: > I know that Moody/Crouch Jr. threw his name in. JLV: I don't think Geoff was disputing that ;-) I thought he was responding to an ambiguity in the wording of Sherrie's comment. > davenclaw: > But everyone is > running around worried about who might have wanted to put Harry in > danger, and speculating about Karkaroff and death eaters and > Voldemort and so on, when no one says "anyone of age could have put > it in" and interrogated all the 17 yr olds in the school with > veritaserum. > > heather: > I think you have a very good point here. > > I'm going to fanwank that the Goblet normally 'recognizes' if the person > submitting a name is the same person named on the paper. If it were as > simple as just getting an older student to put your name in, then yeah > the Weasley twins (and others) would certainly have just got older > students to put their names in. > > So either the Goblet (heh, I originally mistyped "Boglet" and just found > that really amusing) recognizes the identity of the person, or perhaps > it doesn't allow the same person to submit a name twice (so no > 17-year-olds were available to put in younger kids' names since they > wanted to put their own in). If the former, then presumably whilst Moody > was tricking the Goblet into accepting a 'fourth school' he was also > tricking it into thinking he was the person named on his submission > (heck, he knows about Polyjuice potion, maybe he even WAS Harry). If > the latter, then all Moody had to do was trick it about the school, as > he said. > JLV: I agree with both you guys. It /is/ very odd that it isn't mentioned but it may be just one of those things that happened and were 'missed out' of the book - like Harry nipping back into Moody's office to steal back the Marauder's map. One can only assume that JKR just 'forgot' to cover this ground - she could have made up a million reasons. I had a different idea to Heather (but hers is excellent!), so take your pick (I hope mine makes sense): I believe the reason is something along the lines of 'the complexity of the charm needed to confund the cup into forgetting that there were only three schools tells us that only a very powerful wizard could have done it'. I don't have my book here... but I'm sure that someone says something along these lines (but I'm not sure when!) If, indeed, Dumbledore could tell that the magic needed would be too hard for any of his students that could explain the lack of discussion on the subject. However, it seems odd that he would ask Harry if he got an older student to do it if this were the case... But it could be that Harry was asked that question more for show (in front of the other headteachers) than actually as a question. I reckon Dumbledore knew exactly what he was dealing with and it was no simple prank As for the veritaserum, JKR warned on her website that it shouldn't be seen as a magical solution to all law enforcement issues. She is keen to show that things aren't always any easier with magic. > davenclaw: > But regardless, my further point is that it's a very weak spot in > the story - you have this Goblet, which doesn't care how old the > students are, you have the schools agreeing on an age limit, > Dumbledore puts in an age line preventing underagers from putting > their names in, but NOTHING to prevent an of-ager from putting > ANYONE's name in JLV: I also wondered why the twins didn't ask an older student to put their name in, but perhaps they did and were turned down (because they supported Angelina or didn't want to get in trouble themselves)... JKR never said it didn't happen nor did she say it did... Obviously Heather's idea covers this problem too, so is much better in this respect XD I just wanted to say that I too find the plot of GoF a little holey - there are elements that could add up but don't quite. I'm sure that people have asked this before but I'm still not sure why it was necessary for Harry to win the Triwizard tournament to get him transported to the graveyard in the summer. I am hoping the reason is something like the Triwizard Cup is the only authorised portkey allowed in Hogwarts, and any others would set off Dumbledore's magic security. (Dumbledore himself is, of course, allowed to make as many portkeys as he likes as he is the one making the rules!) JLV xx Roll on Saturday! From josturgess at eircom.net Mon Jul 11 15:02:59 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:02:59 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132427 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her best friend was in Slytherin 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ron (sub text) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The school Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yup 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yup 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He will pass 7 Potions Dada Herbology Transfiguration Charms Care of Magical Creatures Astrology (badly) He will fail 2 Divination History of Magic Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question Pupils will form factions in the school (think Sharks and Jets), allegiances will be made and `who to trust' will be a point of contention. Efforts will be made to infiltrate and gather information by both groups. There will be an attempt by the teaching staff to facilitate good relations between houses (not very successfully), possibly a school play or a field trip. Voldy will start a recruitment drive as the DE's will not escape from Azkaban. Harry will travel through the veiled gateway (using information supplied by Luna`s father) and strike a bargain. We will learn that Snape was at Godric's Hollow. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 14:26:45 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:26:45 -0000 Subject: GoF: The Age Line In-Reply-To: <42D27D96.6090805@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132428 heather: > In either case, something didn't get mentioned in the canon > descriptions of events, or else I'm missing something (which is > still possible (lol), but it's possible to explain it still, I > think... As far as I can tell, the only "explanation" seems to be Moody's assertion that a powerful Confundus charm would have been necessary to trick the GoF into thinking there were four schools, which would seem to rule out any students (but they don't even speculate further as to whether any 17 yr olds could have performed such a charm). I guess since no one challenges this, we'll have to take his word and conclude that the GoF is originally "designed" (or "charmed") to only consider applicants from three schools. But one wonders why he couldn't simply trick it into making Harry the one-and-only Hogwarts champion. Maybe it was easier to trick it into thinking there were 4 schools, and since Harry was the only applicant from School #4, he was chosen - which actually doesn't say much for Harry, does it! LOL... ... still, it doesn't explain why we never even see an underager attempt to have an older student put his name in. Either JKR didn't think about that, or simply didn't want us to think about that. Sort of like how it should have been obvious that Voldemort was Slytherin's heir, but she mislead us into focusing on Harry and Malfoy. I wonder how JKR imagined that the GoF would make its decision... how does it obtain knowledge of the students by their name, and upon what does it base the decision to choose one student over another? The GoF is an interesting plot device in that it saves a lot of time selecting a "school champion" via competition of some kind - instead, throw your names in the Goblet, the Goblet chooses the winner, let's move on. - davenclaw From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 14:41:50 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:41:50 -0000 Subject: The good Slytherin / Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132429 zgirnius: >Actually, a Half-Blood who is cunning and ambitious would go into >Slytherin. At least, if his name happened to be Tom Riddle... ;-) >Which makes me wonder, where would a cunning, ambitious Muggleborn > go? a_svirn: > Cunning, ambitious muggleborn? To Gryffindor, at least, if her > name happens to be Hermione Granger. zgirnius replies: Hey, I can't argue with you there! (Nor would I argue with anyone who supposes she belongs in Ravenclaw, quite the mind there, or Hufflepuff, quite the work ethic...) I'm not sure what criteria the Sorting Hat uses. My personal favorite theory regarding Hermione is that she asked the SH for Gryffindor and it, for whatever reasons, agreed. We know from SS that Hermione had already read up on Hogwarts before ever arriving, and thought Gryffindor sounded best, in part because Dumbledore was a Gryffindor. This would allow us to suppose she had a preference to give the Hat. Why did the Hat go along with her? Maybe it just does, or maybe her crusading spirit is enough of a Gryffindor trait. (SPEW, etc...) I was wondering about generic cunning, ambitious Muggleborns in the context of the discussion that a "good Slytherin" will emerge in HBP, now that the WW knows that LV and his Death Eaters are back in business. That discussion is now immensely long and I could not hope to attribute all the nuances from each poster, but I would summarize the opinions as falling into three camps: 1) There will be no "good Slytherin", the house is just evil, or keeping all Slytherins we see "bad guys" is a literary device JKR is going to use. 2) There will be a "good Slytherin". BUT: a) Because that House's traditions and ideology and trait are just plain evil, this Slytherin will not be "typical" and will reject SLytherinness. b) The good SLythering will be a "true Slytherin" and proud of it, whatever, exactly, that means. I personally find 2) b) the most attractive possibility. To me it justifies the Sorting Hat's position that Hogwarts must unite, and the original founders' decision to keep Slytherin House in the school after Salazar Slytherin's departure. It must mean that the House has something of use or value to contribute to the School, and Wizarding society (or else why keep an evil and useless institution around? Why unite with it?) 2) a) does not in my view suffice for this purpose. There are good people (and bad people) everywhere, this provides no justification for Slytherin House as an institution. So where would the "good, but genuine/proud Slytherins" come from? To me is seems a natural guess that these might be Muggleborn or mixed-blood Slytherins. Opposing LV and the DEs is certainly their only move if they wish to advance. And they could use "Slytherin" tactics in opposing others within their house who go along with the pureblood ideology of Slytherins like Draco. zgirnius From daveshardell at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 15:05:16 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:05:16 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132430 Does anyone understand how O.W.L.s work? I can't figure out if the number refers to the number of courses in which you achieve O.W.L. (as if they are all pass/fail), or if it refers to the levels you attain overall in your tests, like a GPA (not sure if it would be a total or an average). -davenclaw From jcgochoel at comcast.net Mon Jul 11 15:05:52 2005 From: jcgochoel at comcast.net (mugglemonkee) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:05:52 -0000 Subject: Whose owl does Aunt Petunia use to send Harry's gifts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132431 Sorry if this has probably been brought up already, but I couldn't find it. With regard to Petunia knowing more than she lets on about the Wizarding World: How does she send Harry's Christmas gifts? Does she borrow an owl from someone? Does Mrs. Figg have an owl? On another note, dou you think the sending of gifts is cumpulsory in relation to Privet Drive being Harry's "home"- and the protection he has there? Just Curious mugglemonkee From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 15:21:00 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711152100.4205.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132432 --- davenclaw wrote: > Does anyone understand how O.W.L.s work? I can't > figure out if the number refers to the number of > courses in which you achieve O.W.L. (as if they are > all pass/fail), or if it refers to the levels you > attain overall in your tests, like a GPA (not sure > if it would be a total or > an average). > > > -davenclaw Since I'm not British I can't explain how the A level (newt) and O level (owls) exams work completely accurate, but as I see it, 2 years before graduating you take the O exams, which will help you chose which assigments you will take during the last 2 years, those subjects that interest you most. The Grade (A, E, F...) is simply a scale, like out of 10 when you get a 9.8 it's excelent, or out of 20 as in France, 18 is an excelent grade, or the American system (A-B-C-D-F) where everyhting over an F is a passing grade, but not in the same quality. As for the number of OWLS, most people agree that the written exam is an owl, and the practical is another, so Harry could get a maximum of 18 (transfiguration, charms, DADA, potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, Divination, Astronomy, History of Magic). 18 seems a lot considering Bill Weasley *only* got 12, so put this way each class is an OWL. Now let's consider Hermione, she has the same classes that HArry does escept Divination, she has Acient Runes, (the one with the numbers..oops). that gives us 10 classes, so how could Bill have gotten 12 owls, which means 12 classes? Hermione, even with a TT couldn't do it, so I guess it's pretty safe to say it's impossible. So once again, the option is that each test is an OWL. Am I making any sense at all? Hope this helps, Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 15:24:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose owl does Aunt Petunia use to send Harry's gifts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711152413.48069.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132433 --- mugglemonkee wrote: > > With regard to Petunia knowing more than she lets on > about the > Wizarding World: How does she send Harry's Christmas > gifts? Does she > borrow an owl from someone? Does Mrs. Figg have an > owl? I guess it's Hedwig, we know she's a smart owl, so she must go to Privet Drive before Christmas and male Petunia send Harry a gift, since she doesn't know a good gift from a bad one, she leaves happily with whatever crappy present Petunia sends. > > On another note, dou you think the sending of gifts > is cumpulsory in > relation to Privet Drive being Harry's "home"- and > the protection he > has there? I don't think so, I think the bond is supposed to be deeper than that. A present doesn't make you close, you actions (and your blood) do. > Just Curious > > mugglemonkee > > > Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From littleleah at handbag.com Mon Jul 11 15:52:48 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:52:48 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132434 I tried this before, but didn't email to Tigerpatronus. I will therefore repost this somewhat changed entry. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor aka "The Old Lion Guy" 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She has almost literally given Harry her eyes, as part of the protection put on him at GH. He sees the world as Lily did. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A unknown person whom we will meet in an early chapter of the book. They will be useless at the job thus requiring Harry to continue with DA. DD will have wished to install the real Moody, but this will be forestalled by Moody being needed on an urgent Auror alert. Dolores Umbridge, now back at the MOM, will therefore suggest this person to prevent adequate DADA teaching. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Parvati Patil or Susan Bones. It will be a normal short lived teenage romance, before Harry gets serious with Ginny/Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I know I wondered previously about Umbridge, but had forgotten Amos Diggory. I think he is the best bet, anti-Voldemort, but bringing in repressive and counter-productive legislation (a la Crouch Snr), and with a subconscious mistrust of Harry and DD (both of whom he holds partly responsible for Cedric's death). 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A collective pensieve in which head teachers of Hogwarts, from the Founders onwards, have placed significant memories 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. He only gets an E in OWLS, but Snape, following the Occlumency debacle, is 'persuaded' by DD to allow him in. (Snape therefore allows in Draco Malfoy who also got an E) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He gets Os in COM and DADA, and an E in Potions. He obtains As in Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology and Divination. He is allowed an A in HoM, due to 'illness' during the exam. Because of the disruption in practical Astronomy, everyone involved gets an A with the exception of Hermione who aced her theory paper and gets an E. Harry fails Divination. So that's 9. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. All affected students are allowed a retake of the Astronomy OWL, and Firenze offers to help with the teaching. Hermione takes up the offer (it was her only E- the rest were Os) and learns something important in discussions with Firenze, possibly relating to the Prophecy, perhaps to Runes. 2. Nott Senior will die as a result of his injuries in the MOM. Theodore will initially blame Harry and co, but will later learn how fellow DEs abandoned his father. This will bring a Slytherin over to Harry's side. 3. We discover the identity of the Eavesdropper 4. Luna will learn of the Bubble gum wrappers and make an intuitive deduction, which Hermione will work on to discover what the Longbottoms actually knew 5. Keeping her word as to making sure Harry becomes an Auror, McGonagall gives him remedial Transfiguration lessons. During these, she spots his latent Metamophagus abilities 6. This may be a book seven: Vernon will be captured by DEs/VM and betray Harry and therefore Petunia and Dudley to them to save himself. Harry will not be there when they turn up and Petunia will discover her suppressed magical tendencies in an attempt to save Dudley. Harry's emotional understanding from this that Petunia is truly his mother's sister, will be an important healing for him and add to his power/protection. Leah From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 16:01:01 2005 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:01:01 -0000 Subject: HBP contest entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132435 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Bill Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Luna Lovegood's Father 3. What is Lily's big secret? I don't think she has a big secret 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 13 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Petunia and Dumbledore will have a meeting, either at Privet Drive or Hogwarts 2. Draco Malfoy becomes an official death eater (dark mark and all) 3. Ron and Hermione will admit their feelings for each other 4. We'll finally find out about switching spells 5. We will get to know more Ravenclaws in Harry's N.E.W.T. classes From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 11 16:01:02 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:01:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: <20050711152100.4205.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050711152100.4205.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42D297BE.8050109@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132436 --- davenclaw wrote: >>Does anyone understand how O.W.L.s work? >> >> Juli wrote: >As for the number of OWLS, most people agree that the >written exam is an owl, and the practical is another, >so Harry could get a maximum of 18 (transfiguration, >charms, DADA, potions, Care of Magical Creatures, >Herbology, Divination, Astronomy, History of Magic). > > Heather now: 1: Not every class had both practical and written parts to their OWL exams. Practical exam for History of Magic, anyone? 2: "Most" people do not agree on this. It's a theory that some like, but there is no general consensus at all. In fact, my intuition is that "most" people do NOT think there are 2 OWLS for a 2-part exam. Juli: >18 seems a lot considering Bill Weasley *only* got 12, >so put this way each class is an OWL. > Heather: 3: It wasn't Bill, it was Percy. Juli: >Now let's >consider Hermione, she has the same classes that HArry >does escept Divination, she has Acient Runes, (the one >with the numbers..oops). that gives us 10 classes, so >how could Bill have gotten 12 owls, which means 12 >classes? Hermione, even with a TT couldn't do it, so I >guess it's pretty safe to say it's impossible. So once >again, the option is that each test is an OWL. > Heather: 4: you're forgetting Muggle Studies and Arithmancy (both of which Hermione took with her TT, and continued Artihmancy in years 4&5 as well). There are 12 classes at Hogwarts that we know of. There might be a couple more, but those are what we've heard of. Juli: >Am I making any sense at all? > > Heather: Some. :) But, ah, a few blunders as well, I'm afraid! heather the buzzard From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 16:07:38 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:07:38 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132437 The number refers to the number of courses in which you achieve an OWL. They are the same as the GCE 'O' levels exams in RL Britain (now called GCSEs). You take a subject in school for 2 years and then you sit a public examination. This may consist of 1, 2, or more separate papers (which usually took place on separate days, but you knew which aspect of the subject was covered within each paper) each comprising one OWL. There are various grades available depending upon the percentage mark that you achive. In RL 'O'levels the grades were A - E and also U - Ungraded (Troll!), where A-C were passes and D and E were fails. In OWLS O(utstanding) E(xceeds expectations) and A(cceptable) were the grades which classed as passes. Karen --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Does anyone understand how O.W.L.s work? I can't figure out if the number refers to the number of courses in which you achieve O.W.L. (as if they are all pass/fail), or if it refers to the levels you attain overall in your tests, like a GPA (not sure if it would be a total or > an average). > > > -davenclaw From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 16:20:05 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: <42D297BE.8050109@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050711162005.63270.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132438 > Juli wrote: > > >As for the number of OWLS, most people agree that > the > >written exam is an owl, and the practical is > another, > >so Harry could get a maximum of 18 > (transfiguration, > >charms, DADA, potions, Care of Magical Creatures, > >Herbology, Divination, Astronomy, History of > Magic). > > > > > Heather now: > > 1: Not every class had both practical and written > parts to their OWL > exams. Practical exam for History of Magic, anyone? OK, My bad, sorry. So a maximum of 17 > > 2: "Most" people do not agree on this. It's a > theory that some like, > but there is no general consensus at all. In fact, > my intuition is that > "most" people do NOT think there are 2 OWLS for a > 2-part exam. >From previous and old posts that's what I get, but of course you're entiled to you own opinion. > Juli: > > >18 seems a lot considering Bill Weasley *only* got > 12, > >so put this way each class is an OWL. > > > Heather: > > 3: It wasn't Bill, it was Percy. Bill also got 12, as did Barty Crouch Jr... > Juli: > > >Now let's > >consider Hermione, she has the same classes that > HArry > >does escept Divination, she has Acient Runes, (the > one > >with the numbers..oops). that gives us 10 classes, > so > >how could Bill have gotten 12 owls, which means 12 > >classes? Hermione, even with a TT couldn't do it, > so I > >guess it's pretty safe to say it's impossible. So > once > >again, the option is that each test is an OWL. > > > > Heather: > > 4: you're forgetting Muggle Studies and Arithmancy > (both of which > Hermione took with her TT, and continued Artihmancy > in years 4&5 as > well). There are 12 classes at Hogwarts that we > know of. There might > be a couple more, but those are what we've heard of. > Hermione quitted Muggle Studies at the end of PoA, and I mentioned Artithmancy (I just didn't know the name ;) ) Still my point is the same, there's no time to take 12 classes while at Hogwarts, that means to me that each class must bring more than one OWL, IMO Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Mon Jul 11 16:41:00 2005 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:41:00 +0100 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: <1121097702.2696.37317.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132440 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley (see below). 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She had some sort of relationship with Voldemort, which is why he asked her to "step aside" rather than just killing her, as he did Cedric when he was a "spare". 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New character, a good guy for a change, who will actually last the year and come back in book 7. He/she will be a member of the Order and will help train everyone in practical defense against the Death Eaters. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No-one, he will be too busy grieving for Sirius, and preparing for his impending fight-to-the-death with Voldemort to even think about girls. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? New character, less pompous than Fudge and more inclined to follow Dumbledore's advice. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Snape's penseive. Harry will sneak back for another look to see how badly his father behaved at school. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA - O Potions - E Herbology - A Care of Magical Creatures - O Charms - E Transfiguration - E Astronomy - A He will fail Divination and History of Magic (since he practically slept all the way through that exam). Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Ginny will become a Cat Animagus. She is often described as "cat-like" and has an affinity with cats - she was upset when Mrs Norris was petrified, and plays with Crookshanks a lot - so I think these are hints of her animagus form. 2. Percy will be shown to be a Death Eater and will be killed in a showdown with a member of the Order. 3. Victor Krum will reappear with news of Karkaroff and will join the Order. 4. Bill and Fleur will get married. 5. Neville will find more confidence in his magic skills after his part in the showdown at the Ministry of Magic. He will feature much more prominently in Book 6 and will rank alongside Hermione and Ron as one of Harry's main confidantes. His gran will be very proud of him. Sorry if this one is too vague :-)) From jonathan.d.price at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 15:20:28 2005 From: jonathan.d.price at gmail.com (Jonathan Price) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:20:28 +0100 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37141b1b0507110820c5ae611@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132441 On 11/07/05, davenclaw wrote: > > Does anyone understand how O.W.L.s work? I can't figure out if the number > refers to the number of courses in which you achieve O.W.L. (as if they > are all pass/fail), or if it refers to the levels you attain overall in your > tests, like a GPA (not sure if it would be a total or > an average). > > > -davenclaw Hi, new here, I will launch stright in . . . In the UK, if you say that you have, say, 4 A-Levels it means that you have 4 separate qualifications, in 4 different subjects. If OWLs work in the same way (and there is no real reason to think they don't), then to say that someone has 9 OWLs means that they have passed OWLs in 9 subjects at grade A or above. Info on the British examination system here to give you context: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-newts-owls.html Wikipedia on OWLs here to give you a grade list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_Wizarding_Level Cheers Jono From daveshardell at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 15:48:04 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:48:04 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s (and the importance of blood) In-Reply-To: <20050711152100.4205.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132442 Juli: > Now let's > consider Hermione, she has the same classes that HArry > does escept Divination, she has Acient Runes, (the one > with the numbers..oops). that gives us 10 classes, so > how could Bill have gotten 12 owls, which means 12 > classes? > That's arithmancy... and you forgot Muggle Studies. That's 11 courses I can think of. I keep thinking that it's some sort of average score though. Didn't Fred & George only manage 3 OWLs? That seems pretty awful if you can get two per course (written/practical). And if it's one per course, I have no idea how Bill got 12 - if there is a twelfth class, how was he taking all of them? Maybe this will all be better explained when we find out how H/R/H did. On another note, since I'm at my limit for daily posts (sorry!), regarding blood: isn't it interesting how on the one hand, sharing someone's blood is extremely important to the story (e.g. protection from Lily via Petunia), but on the other hand JKR stresses that having "pure blood" is meaningless in terms of character or magical ability? I wonder if there is some further point to this. - davenclaw From nawyecka at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 16:25:09 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:25:09 -0000 Subject: HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132443 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She has some genetic and/or blood conection to dragons. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny will finally catch his eye 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Godric Gryffindor's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Five: Transfiguration Charms Potions DADA Astronomy Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Petunia the squib Molly Weasley killed Dumbledore's death by Voldemort will be a sacrifice on Dumbledore's part. Sirius killed by a member of the Order. Ron as Quiddich captain From daveshardell at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 16:09:04 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:09:04 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 3 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132444 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Arthur Weasely 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Old Lion Guy = Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was a death-eater for a brief time. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Arthur Weasely 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Harry will be Quidditch captain 2. Cho Chang will be Quidditch captain 3. House Elves and retired Aurors will become the new Azkaban guards 4. The Giants will divide between those supporting and opposing Voldemort 5. Grawp will save a character's life when a centaur tries to kill him/her. - davenclaw From kathrin.p at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:05:45 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:05:45 +0200 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <4e2ac800507111005754a5e9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132445 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Filch and Lucius Malfoy will die, but the most major character will be Minerva McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid is the Half-Blood Prince 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) she found out about her being related to Albus Dumbledore in some mysterious way 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, not yet mentioned in one of the books 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Gabrielle Delacour 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Severus Snape will do the job until they find someone who takes over for him so Snape can get back to Hogwarts. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Snape's Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? certainly! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes, didn't he say he wanted to be an auror after graduating? then he certainly will need it... 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 12 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Caradoc Dearborn will resurface, but has lost his memory through a spell by one of Voldemorts followers 2. Sirius Black will come back - he will be brought back by the use of the Time Turner 3. Percy Weasley will quit his job at the Ministry of Magic after Snape becomes the Minister of Magic, this means he's unemployed and moves back in with his parents *eg* 4. Uncle Vernon discovers that he has other wizards in his family and is so shocked about the news that he has to go to a counselor 5. through an incident the muggles will find out more about the wizard world which ends up in the use of a memory spell -- Kathrin ~~~~~ check out: http://plain-me.blogspot.com for the latest news on me http://book-a-holic.blogspot.com for my book addiction http://justitia.blogspirit.com for the German/law student part in me From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 17:35:36 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:35:36 -0700 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c5863e$f34ad830$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132446 Hi, i've been reading dozens of predictions of what people expect to happen in HBP. I don't feel up to predicting too much, but here are a few thoughts. JKR is good at not doing the obvious. For instance, in SS/PS, we were supposed to think with Harry, that Snape was trying to kill him. I'm an avid mystery reader, and I always suspect the obvious. I never did believe Snape was trying to kill Harry, because it was far too obvious. It was the same with POA. From the first time we're told Sirius Black is out to kill Harry, I didn't believe it. It was just too obvious. I admit that fake moody had me fooled for quite a while, but when I started really trying to figure out who could have put Harry's name in the goblet, I had to decide it was Moody. He was the new character; he was seemingly so good and supportive. What surprised me was his identity. I don't think I figured that out. So, to HBP. I would guess that most people expect Dumbledore to be the one who dies in HBP. I'm going to say no to that, because it's too obvious, too expected. If he dies, I think it will happen in book seven. If I had to predict someone, I'd say a Weasley or one of the aurors we know. And i hope one of the big baddies, such as Lucius or Bella. After all, it's time to have a bad guy die. i wouldn't be surprised to have a spy in the order, because it seems logical that Voldemort would try to have someone close to Dumbledore, as he had Peter the last time around. i think the HBP might be someone historical, such as Godric Gryffindor, and I think the title could be Prince as in champion, champion of the half bloods. JKR has said that part of the story line was in COS, but it didn't fit there, so she took it out. The only thing that really seems to fit is the story of the founders. But as I said, she is so good at not doing the obvious, and I could be completely surprised by the outcome. Mostly, i just can't wait for JKR to give us all a big surprise in some way, and I'm expecting that whatever seems blatantly obvious in the early parts of the books, will turn out to be completely false. It will be so fun to see what she does this time! sherry From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 18:06:44 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:06:44 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s (and the importance of blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132447 davenclaw: That's arithmancy... and you forgot Muggle Studies. That's 11 courses I can think of. AD: 1. Potions 2. Transfiguration 3. Charms 4. DADA 5. Divination 6. Arithmancy 7. Care of Magical Creatures 8. Ancient Runes 9. Muggle Studies 10. Astronomy 11. Herbology 12. History of Magic That's all I can think of. Amiable Dorsai From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 11 18:11:55 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:11:55 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132448 My own feeble attempt at prediction: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The halfblood prince is not going to be a contemporary character. Instead it will be legend, fable, or story about someone from the past that will bare striking similarities to Harry and his situation. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She worked in the department of mysteries and may have been an unspeakable. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character. a friend of Dumbledores and someone competent. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The pensieve of one of the four founders, probably Salazar Slytherin. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. He has to face his Snape demon for real. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. At the beginning of the book Harry will have lost much of his Gryffindor confidence and as the book unfolds he will rediscover it. 2. Ron will try to pressure Ginny to date Harry and she will get very mad at him. 3. Ron is going to go out on a date with Luna Lovegood. That date will force Hermione to confront him about her feelings. 4. Snape and Harry are going to get into the worst argument of the series as Harry blows his lid about Occulomency and Sirius and comes very close to physically or magically attacking his potion professor. 5. Harry is not going to inherit the Black Estate. He will get a small amount of gold and a few magical curios that the Order knew Sirius wanted passed to Harry but nothing else. phoenixgod2000 From anurim at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 18:13:45 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: <001301c5863e$f34ad830$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20050711181346.46128.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132449 Hi Sherry, I like your approach (and if it worked three times already, surely there is something to it!). I also doubt that Dumbledore will die, because it would be obvious, because I see no real need for it and also because Jo hinted he might conduct the Hogwarts song once again, when things settle down in a satisfactory way; I doubt he will die in book 6 or in book 7 for that matter, but it might well be wishful thinking. The idea about a spy in the Order is also good and likely to come true. The most surprinsing and thus the less obvious, for me, would be that Dumbledore himself is a spy ('He is no more DE than I am', 'If we cannot trust Dumbledore we cannot trust anybody' etc), and that he does the right thing only because it is to his advantage. But I really don't believe this is true. It will all be so pointless if it is. I think I can vouch for Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Bill, Charley, Molly, Arthur, Moody and Hagrid not being and never becoming spies, but this is as far as I trust the characters, I'm afraid. Although I would really, really scowl and glare very badly at Jo if she makes Lupin a spy. Is there anybody else we can trust unconditionally? Possibly Krum, because Hermione has good instincts about people, but who else would you include on, or exclude from the list? An interesting prediction is Gabrielle being Harry's love interest. She is a bit young for him at this age, but on the other hand, it is the only truly realistic romanting development Jo can throw at us (IMHO). Harry might meet her at Bill and Fleur's engagement party, and notice how she had grown into a very beautiful young woman, Gabrielle will be smitten with him because he saved her two years ago, and so on, and so forth. I would believe it much sooner than Harry suddenly noticing how one of the girls he's seeing every day at Hogwarts is really more attractive than he thought. So, whether it is true or not, well done to anybody who made this prediction. But perhaps Harry will date more than one girl. After all, if he is doomed to kill or die at a young age, and if he remembers how Sirius had to give up his love life (we assume) because of the war, then he might want to live at maximum speed while he still can. This, and we need this book to be about greed, for ANTIVIRUS to still float after hurricane Jo hits TBAY :) With your permission I'll stop rambling now, but not before bowing and apologising profousely to the list elves and to everybody because, Sherry, I meant to write many times to say how much of an inspiration I find your live journal to be, but never managed to, so I'll do it now. Hope this doesn't mean clothes for me from the list for going OT... Mira --- Sherry Gomes wrote: > Hi, > > i've been reading dozens of predictions of what > people expect to happen in > HBP. I don't feel up to predicting too much, but > here are a few thoughts. > > JKR is good at not doing the obvious. For instance, > in SS/PS, we were > supposed to think with Harry, that Snape was trying > to kill him. I'm an > avid mystery reader, and I always suspect the > obvious. I never did believe > Snape was trying to kill Harry, because it was far > too obvious. It was the > same with POA. From the first time we're told > Sirius Black is out to kill > Harry, I didn't believe it. It was just too > obvious. I admit that fake > moody had me fooled for quite a while, but when I > started really trying to > figure out who could have put Harry's name in the > goblet, I had to decide it > was Moody. He was the new character; he was > seemingly so good and > supportive. What surprised me was his identity. I > don't think I figured > that out. > > So, to HBP. I would guess that most people expect > Dumbledore to be the one > who dies in HBP. I'm going to say no to that, > because it's too obvious, too > expected. If he dies, I think it will happen in > book seven. If I had to > predict someone, I'd say a Weasley or one of the > aurors we know. And i hope > one of the big baddies, such as Lucius or Bella. > After all, it's time to > have a bad guy die. i wouldn't be surprised to have > a spy in the order, > because it seems logical that Voldemort would try to > have someone close to > Dumbledore, as he had Peter the last time around. i > think the HBP might be > someone historical, such as Godric Gryffindor, and I > think the title could > be Prince as in champion, champion of the half > bloods. JKR has said that > part of the story line was in COS, but it didn't fit > there, so she took it > out. The only thing that really seems to fit is the > story of the founders. > > > But as I said, she is so good at not doing the > obvious, and I could be > completely surprised by the outcome. > Mostly, i just can't wait for JKR to give us all a > big surprise in some way, > and I'm expecting that whatever seems blatantly > obvious in the early parts > of the books, will turn out to be completely false. > It will be so fun to > see what she does this time! > > sherry > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anurim at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 18:18:24 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR and the obvious -PS In-Reply-To: <001301c5863e$f34ad830$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20050711181824.50830.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132450 Sorry for being stupid, but I forgot to put in the previous message something I meant to say for a long time: I agree that the HBP might be a historical character because this is the obvious thing that would have fit in CoS but was left out, and in support of the idea that he might be Salazar Slytherin, I seem to remember (sorry for not having the exact quote) that his statue in the CoS has a monkey-like face, so perhaps his ancestry is a bit muddled anyway (although it might be just that a monkey face suits him, same as a lion face suits Godric Gryffindor - we'll have to see). Mira __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 18:43:37 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:43:37 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s (and the importance of blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132451 > AD: > > 1. Potions > 2. Transfiguration > 3. Charms > 4. DADA > 5. Divination > 6. Arithmancy > 7. Care of Magical Creatures > 8. Ancient Runes > 9. Muggle Studies > 10. Astronomy > 11. Herbology > 12. History of Magic > > That's all I can think of. > > Amiable Dorsai I just thought I'd throw into the mix the fact that, over here in the UK, you can get 1-3 GCSEs in Science (either as 'single science', 'double science' or 'separate sciences') and two GCSEs in English (English Language and English Literature). Each time you would choose how many you want to take before you do the exams though (although each different school has different policies on which subjects you would take). The upshot is that you opted to do 'separate sciences' and only just failed all three, you wouldn't get anything. It is very possible for some people to 'only' get three GCSEs on this basis, as passisng isn't easy, but some people do get 12 or more top grades. Given this real life situation, I wouldn't be surprised if some core subjects offered more than one owl per class, and other classes didn't. This would make 12 a fairly achievablwe goal for the Bills, Percys and Hermiones amongst us. Of course, it may be another case of JKR getting her numbers muddled again... JLV xx From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 19:02:47 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:02:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] O.W.L.s Message-ID: <1a6.3ae80435.30041c57@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132452 In a message dated 7/11/2005 11:02:36 AM Central Standard Time, tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca writes: >18 seems a lot considering Bill Weasley *only* got 12, >so put this way each class is an OWL. > Heather: 3: It wasn't Bill, it was Percy. Nope Bill and Percy both received 12 OWLS. As I recall that information is in PS/SS. If it is one OWL per class than I wonder how they managed to do it. could they have had time turner help as well? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 19:05:00 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:05:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Gabrielle (was JKR and the obvious) In-Reply-To: <20050711181346.46128.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132453 Mira wrote: "An interesting prediction is Gabrielle being Harry's love interest." Del replies: Er... Wasn't Gabrielle something like *eight*, in GoF?? If I'm right, then she'll be something like 10 or 11 in HBP. That's Ginny's age in PS/SS, when she was just "the Weasley baby girl" ! There is really *no way* I can see Harry and a pre-pubescent Gabrielle having a romance together. I'd much more easily see Harry and *Fleur* together... If anything ever happens between Harry and Gabrielle, it will be way after Book 7, IMO. Mira wrote: "I would believe it much sooner than Harry suddenly noticing how one of the girls he's seeing every day at Hogwarts is really more attractive than he thought." Del replies: You mean like Ron going (paraphrase) "Hermione, Neville's right, you ARE a girl" after more than 3 years of friendship with her, or Harry finding Hermione pretty at the Yule Ball just because she put on a nice dress and made her hair up :-) ? Del From shelbyleigh at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:29:21 2005 From: shelbyleigh at gmail.com (ShelbyLeigh) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:29:21 -0400 Subject: Lurkers view on HBP (prediction contest) In-Reply-To: <000001c58378$b45d1340$6601a8c0@BeachHouse> Message-ID: <000501c5863e$148ac420$6401a8c0@BeachHouse> No: HPFGUIDX 132454 I answered these questions before I had listened to all of the books again. I want to make some changes and add things to my predictions. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley or McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Someone we do not know --- or we have not met them. Example: We know Dudley, we have never met James Potter or Godric Gryffindor. (I enjoy the reasoning folks have stated for giving this honor to Dudley but I do not think JK would make him that prominent. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) a) That she was working on a way to bind a person's magic b) She dated Remus first. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna or Susan 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is not a pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, Dumbledore will make Snape take any student who passed his OWLs and wants to take Potion into the NEWT Potion Class. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, Dumbledore will make Snape take any student who passed his OWLs and wants to take Potion into the NEWT Potion Class. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8.5 is the number I gave based on how I think OWLs are earned. (Harry got Outstanding in DADA, CoMC, Charms and Transfiguration. Harry got the second passing grade in Herbology, Potion and Astromany. Harry did not pass History of Magic or Divination.) Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Voldemort knows about the DA members and sets out to punish them or gain control of them and their families. They will be some of the first victims of his remaining Death Eaters. 2. Arthur is going become undersecretary to the Minister; while still retaining his job in Muggle Artifacts. It will mean a raise and he will be the liaison with the prime minister when the Muggles begin to notice magic. 3. Umbridge, Fudge and the captured Death Eaters will go to trail. 4. Since the Dementors have shown themselves to be unwilling to guard the Wizard Prison we have to get new guards so that the Death Eaters stay locked up. Dumbledore on behalf of the MoM will have Amos Diggory and Cuthbert Mockridge from the Goblin liaison will work with Goblins or house elfs to be the next guards of Azkaban. 5. Neville is going to get praise from his Gran. 6. Harry will tell Neville about the Prophecy. Harry tells Neville because he wanted Neville know that he had the destiny to be just as good as everyone thinks Harry is. 7. When Neville finds out about the prophecy he questions his Gran; she admits that she knew of the prophecy and that she has been attempting to keep him safe by making him appear a hapless wizard. 8. The Harry, Ron and Hermione group is going to get bigger. Ginny is going to join the group and bring Dean with her if they continue to date. Susan will join the group by taking up with Neville or Harry when she moves into headquarters. Luna will also be come part of the group. This mini group will become junior Order Members. 9. Harry will discover that his parent had a home other than the home in Godric Hollow. They moved more than once running from Voldemort. 10. Ron will be captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, Dean will announce. Ron will put out a call to replace 2 chassers and 2 beaters. 11. Draco will become captain for his team. 12. After leaving Privet Drive Harry will have a proper birthday party with loads of presents. 13. Dean learns that he is the son of a wizard who was killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. Dean will hear all of the details of how his father left his mother and him to save them from the Death Eaters. 14. Ginny will become a chaser. 15. The Jr Order members will get private lessons from Snape, Flitwick and McGonagall. Harry and Hermione will train the DA members in all major lessons important charms, usable potions, difficult transfiguration and all DADA. ShelbyLeigh From cayres1 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 19:12:51 2005 From: cayres1 at yahoo.com (cayres1) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:12:51 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: <20050624220154.GK13521@4dot0.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132455 Fred to Harry: Our joke shop is doing so well in Diagon Alley that we have decided to expand to Hogsmeade. Don't be surprised if you see George and me sneaking around Hogwart's at night. Snape to Neville and Harry, much against his will: I knew from the beginning that Draco Malfoy would be reporting my treatment of you to his father, who might in turn relate it to He Who Must Not Be Named. Therefore, I was forced to treat you both (the children of powerful members of the Order)with contempt at all times. Dumbledore asked me to make sure that you both hated me, because otherwise Malfoy (and perhaps You Know Who, through leglimency), would begin to suspect something. Oliver Wood: I have just joined a new Quidditch team, the Hogsmeade Hogs. Our star player is Viktor Krum. Hermione: While we're at St. Mungo's visiting Neville's parents with him, I think the right thing to do would be to visit Lockhart and Umbridge as well. Ron, to his Dad: You are a great wizard and I would be proud to follow in your footsteps. I don't think money would be that important to me, if I could have Hermione. Luna: I've decided to leave Hogwarts to search for (insert imaginary animal here). I have no romantic interest in Harry whatsoever, and the feeling is mutual. Harry: The anti-depressants have worked wonders, and I no longer feel like snapping at my best friends. Doxies: We will no longer appear in the series, as scenes about getting rid of us do not make for very interesting reading. Cayres1 From cayres1 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 19:11:03 2005 From: cayres1 at yahoo.com (cayres1) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:11:03 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132456 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew. I can't bear to predict that anyone good will die. (But who decides whether one character is more major than another? Is Charlie, for instance, more major than Bill? What if they both die?) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin. (Hey, if Voldemort is a half-blood, why not Slytherin himself?) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Before she dated James, she had a muggle boyfriend: Vernon Dusley. At the time he was quite charming, but after she broke up with him he hated all things magical. (I hope I'm wrong!) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy. He will be a great teacher. Physical disabilities seem to be characteristic of good characters in HP. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Eloise Midgen, whose skin has cleared up. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ms. Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I haven't actually seen the picture, so I'm going to agree with the masses that it's a pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Oh yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. At least one giant will show up at Hogwarts to join the good guys. The rest will join Voldemort. 2. Hermione is sick all year as a result of her injuries in the Dept of Mysteries, but doesn't let it stop her from her usual activities. 3. Luna makes a pest of herself. (I'm sorry, I know Jo loves her, but she annoys me). 4. Percy does not seek forgiveness from his family, and they remain divided. (I know it's a negative prediction, but I think it's a solid one). 5. Draco becomes depressed, and starts to behave entirely differently than he has up to now. He has no interest in bossing around Crabbe and Goyle?he is simply preoccupied with worrying about his father in Azkaban. Cayres From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 19:04:07 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:04:07 -0000 Subject: HBP predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132457 1. Who will be the most major character to die? In HPB it will be Snape, who will die at the end, in some sort of sacrifice to save Harry. This will be a tremendous eye-opener for Harry, that such a horrible person is not all black and white and may be devoted to fighting Voldemort. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She dated Snape briefly before James. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, we will hear about him before arrival at Hogwarts. He may be McGonagle's husband, previously traveling or retired. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore' pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, he has to keep battling Snape. He will not have scored high enough on the OWL (gotten an E but not an O) but either Dumbledore or McGonangle will step in and force Snape to take him in the class, thus making Snape hate him even more. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): Harry, Ron and Ginny will all be on the Quidditch team (Harry will start to "like" Ginny seeing her in this context). R/H ship. Harry will make contact with Serius but Serius will not come back to life (that is, contact will be via mirror, portrait, or similar). There will be a showdown at a cemetary located at the heart of the Forbidden Forest, Grawp, Ford Anglia, Aragog and the unicorns will all play a part. St. Mungo's will be found to be under DE control, one of the two OOP members who ended up in St. Mungo's at the end of OOP (either Tonks or McGonagle or both) will be a DE spy in HBP acting under imperio or other spell. Percy will continue his breach with the Weasleys but will come back during a key confrontation, perhaps being wounded or harmed. This comes close to being a negative prediction, but all of the trio and all of the Weasleys will survive the series. Dumbledore, Hagrid and Lupin will survive at least the HBP. The Dursleys will be brought to Hogwarts for their protection against DEs! None of them will prove to be magical. Fleur and Bill Weasley will get married and Harry will leave the Dursleys early in the summer to attend their wedding. Phew.... Rolshan From celizwh at intergate.com Mon Jul 11 19:04:13 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:04:13 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132458 MmeBurgess: > The only problem that I have with Snape is as a teacher, I disagree > with his teaching methods. I believe that he could be just as > favoring to Slytherins without the cruelness towards students of > other houses (e.g., Hermione's teeth, Neville's nervousness, etc.). > But if, as Greg says, it saves 15 years of Slytherins from becoming > DEs, then I will manage to forgive him. houyhnhnm: As a high school science teacher, I have a lot of sympathy for Snape. He has very high standards and he runs a tight ship. Teaching one's subject is the first duty of a teacher. Protecting the physical safety of students in the lab is the second. Look at the disaster that is American education today in science and math. Many teachers in the urban district I work for never do labs anymore because discipline is so bad. Think of the extent to which the wizarding world is dependent on accurately concocted potions. (Also, think of the teaching load of the Hogwarts teachers. JKR has said there are around a thousand students at Hogwarts and only one teacher for each subject. It would be enough to make anyone cranky.) My criticsm of Snape, as a teacher, is the fact that he can't handle the counter-transference. He lets his personal dislikes take over and he hits below the belt (comment on Hermione's teeth). He also doesn't make much effort to teach technique--just puts the procedure on the board and lets students sink or swim on their own. All in all, though, I'd rather have Snape as a colleague any day of the world than Trelawney or Lockhart. From samwisep at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 17:36:09 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:36:09 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132459 Hi fellow potterphiles! I am slowly being drove crazy?? Exactly WHERE is Blaise Zabini mentioned in the books? I have read each book four or five times, and I don't remember them being mentioned. Samantha From tab1669 at elnet.com Mon Jul 11 17:42:34 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:42:34 -0000 Subject: Question please Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132460 I want to know what the difference between Warlocks and Wizards. I know that Warlocks are male witches in other shows but what are they in this book. The school is called Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Does this mean that Warlocks are included in this school or not, or do they go to a different school all together. They have never mentiond warlocks before. I'm just wondering. Help please!!! flyingmonkeypurple From c-katsos at northwestern.edu Mon Jul 11 19:53:53 2005 From: c-katsos at northwestern.edu (spotsgal) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:53:53 -0000 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: <001301c5863e$f34ad830$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132461 > sherry: > If he dies, I think it will happen in book seven. If I had to > predict someone, I'd say a Weasley or one of the aurors we know. > And i hope one of the big baddies, such as Lucius or Bella. ... > i think the HBP might be > someone historical, such as Godric Gryffindor, and I think the title > could be Prince as in champion, champion of the half bloods. I completely agree with you. A lot of people seem to like following Trelawney's 13-dinner-guests prophecy through the books, and Mrs. Weasley is the second to rise after Sirius during the dinner scene in the beginning of OotP. Not to mention that out of such a large family, it *would* be shocking if they all survived. I don't think enough time has been devoted to Bill or Charlie to have one of them killed off...maybe Percy might be next? I can see it being Snape too, though. I really believe that he'll die before the end of the series, just because Voldemort must be itching to pay him back for his betrayal. I've always thought that the half-blood prince was Gryffindor. I think we're due a little more backstory on him, since we got quite a bit of Slytherin's in CoS. I've heard a lot of debate about the "prince who is a half-blood" vs. "prince OF half-bloods" meaning of the title. I think it implies a bit of both. A friend of mine told me that in translated versions of HBP, the title is translated into "prince who is a half-blood," but I really don't know if that's for sure. Christina From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 19:54:18 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:54:18 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132462 I don't understand why so many people think Godric Gryffindor is going to turn out to be the half blood prince. Gryffindor wouldn't have been half blood. If he was then Salazar Slytherin wouldn't have been best friends with him (before they fell out). I think if the term 'half blood prince' refers to a literal prince, then it wouldn't be Gryffindor. The four founders of hogwarts had to be equal. If Gryffindor was a prince then he would have been the leader of the school. I think the lion-like charater described by JKR could be Gryffindor, or he could be the half blood prince, but it isn't going to be both. It could be that lion-man is a decendant of Gryffindor, and also a decendant of a wizard royal family. It's likely that my predictions are wrong. I like the idea of a wizard royal family though. No royals have been mentioned in any books so far, so if there is one, it must be in the past or something. I was just wondering why so many people put Gryffindor as the half blood prince on the prediction competition. It seems impossible to me. "philippajrice" From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:04:44 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:04:44 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132463 > Harry's grandparent's generation of Slytherin produced LV, Harry's > parent's generation produced his DE's, is 15 years of Snape running > Slytherin house enough to stop the trend? In conclusion, Snape is > going to be judged a good teacher or a bad one, not on the results > his students get on their exams, but the results they get in life. > How many Slytherins of the past 15 years become DE's? How many will > join the Order of the Phoenix? The answer to that, and that alone, > will determine his success as a teacher. > > Greg interesting idea Greg, but I don't buy it. Slytherin nature seems to me to be one that wouldn't encourage students going to their head of house for personal problems. Too easy to end up blackmailed or weak looking in front of other slytherins. they seem to me to be a very stratified, position obsessed house and wouldn't do anything that could endanger that. furthermore, Snape's role as a spy and as a death eater would be very much at odds. what would happen if Draco told his father that Snape was saying unDeath Eatery things around students. How long would Snape last around Voldemort then? I actually think that Snape probably is going to drive more students to the dark side, not less. He's not going to compromise his role as a spy to give personal advice to his students. Tht would be a most unSlytherin thing to do :) phoenixgod2000 From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 20:08:01 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:08:01 -0000 Subject: Prophecies and Those Who Hear Them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132464 I have a question about prophecies in the Potterverse. What if no one is around to hear when a prophecy is made? In POA, Trelawney seemed to have no recollection that she had given a prophecy. If Harry had not gone back, he would not have heard it. What, then, would have happened to the prophecy? If it is "orbed" then who "orbs" it? Would this person(s) not have some magical access to all prophecies? I know these are all speculative questions, but given the prominence of the prophecy about LV and (?)Harry Potter, it seems that understanding prophecies in the Potterverse would be quite helpful. Julie From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:10:48 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:10:48 -0000 Subject: Is Wizard law sexist? Was: General Rule of Law in the Wizard World, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > The discussion of common vs. civil law, primogeniture and entails has > been fascinating, but it makes me wonder: Law and tradition that favor > males (it seems to me) come into being because, not to put too fine a > point on it, men are bigger and stronger than women, and can make such > things stick. > > True enough for Muggles, but not necessarily so for magical people--I > see no reason in canon to believe that witches are generally less > powerful than wizards. > > If a witch is as likely as a wizard to win a fight, should we expect > that inheritance laws would favor wizards over witches? A very good point. I think in general witches do stand shoulder to shoulder with wizards, but it so far seems like women still take the man's name when they marry. Which seems to me to be a sign of a patrilineal society. If family names are passed down through the male, it seems likely that family property also passes down the same way. phoenixgod2000 From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 11 20:27:48 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:27:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose owl does Aunt Petunia use to send Harry's gifts? References: Message-ID: <000e01c58657$0255a090$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 132466 In PS, we read that the Dursleys send their present (a 50p piece) by means of Hedwick, so we can only assume that in the other books they send the other presents by her as well. We can only assume that Hedwick has been sent to them by Harry, as their note in PS says they've received his note and have sent his Christmas present. Derek ----- Original Message ----- From: "mugglemonkee" To: Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Whose owl does Aunt Petunia use to send Harry's gifts? > Sorry if this has probably been brought up already, but I couldn't > find it. > > With regard to Petunia knowing more than she lets on about the > Wizarding World: How does she send Harry's Christmas gifts? Does she > borrow an owl from someone? Does Mrs. Figg have an owl? > > On another note, dou you think the sending of gifts is cumpulsory in > relation to Privet Drive being Harry's "home"- and the protection he > has there? > > Just Curious > > mugglemonkee > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:28:31 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:28:31 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132467 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley. Percy was working undercover for the Order all along, and will be cleared of all suspicions of being a pillock after his heroic death. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily will turn out to be a descendent of an ancient magical people or magical clan, possibly merpeople, which is why her parents were so excited to have a witch in the family. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Lion guy. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve of one of the Hogwarts founders. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7, if practical and theoretical exams are combined into a single result. 12, if practical and theoretical exams are counted separately. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry will take an interest in the Dark Arts and rebel against Dumbledore, and he will be encouraged to do so by a voice he hears inside his head. This voice may reveal itself to Harry as his imaginary childhood friend Tom Riddle. 2. Harry will struggle with careless and unthinking behaviour at several points in the book, Harry will then later show exceptional prudence in a fight with Voldemort at the end of the book. 3. We will find out that Peter Pettigrew was not the spy. Peter did not voluntarily go to Voldemort with the information about the Potters, Voldemort forced the information out of Peter after he was betrayed by the real spy. 4. We will find out that the house in Godric's Hollow was not blown up as a result of the failed AK-curse, the house was blown up as a result of Harry using wandless magic to prevent the disembodied Voldemort from possessing him. 5. The Weasley joke shop will play a role as an experimental weapons laboratory, producing all sorts of items that will be useful in the war against Voldemort. -Maus From laura_momiji at tin.it Mon Jul 11 20:48:45 2005 From: laura_momiji at tin.it (Momiji) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:48:45 +0200 Subject: HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132468 I'm very sorry for my bad English. (Well, I'm a little lurker ^^; ) 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Her best friend was Snape and she was a death-eater, but only to spy Voldemort for the Order, she caused Snape's-redemption- 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore's brother. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No-one, maybe his friendship with Luna is going to become more deep... 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's penseive. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All! Predictions (0-10 points each): -Snape will confirm to us to be a "good" character. (I hope ^^) -Ginny, Neville and Luna will be a 2nd "trio" to help Harry, Ron and Hermione. -Neville will become more "strong" in wizardy -Harry will see his parents' grave -Arthur Weasley will become an important MoM's figure (but not minister) -Percy will return home with great sense of guilty -Snape will be injuried (Snape will fail to use occlumency and "discovered" by Voldemort) -Bill and Fleur will engage -Mundugus is a spy -Hermione and Ron will begin to date togheter -Petunia and Dudley will be more "gentle" (it's the wrong word, I know) with Harry -Fred and George wll be "ufficially" in the Order I'm sorry for my mistake... *return to lurk* Bye bye, Laura -- "It would be quite nice if you stopped jumping down our throats, Harry, because in case you haven't noticed, Ron and I are on your side!" Hermione from -Harry Potter and The Order of Phoenix.- http://www.livejournal.com/~laura_momiji/ From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 11 20:51:39 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:51:39 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel and Free Will in POA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132469 Notice that when Dumbledore first walked into the Infirmary at around 11:55 PM and saw Harry and Hermione, he must have realized that they had in fact already decided to time-travel and had in fact succeeded in their time-traveling mission ? for if they had not succeeded, they would have had the Dementor's Kiss applied and would not be in their condition in the Infirmary at that time. So he knew they must have accepted their time-traveling mission and accomplished their task before he asked them! So is Dumbledore's foreknowledge compatible with Harry and Hermione's free will? That is, Dumbledore already knew they must have done it ? so did they then really have any free will in the matter? Or did they somehow exercise free will before Dumbledore arrived at the Infirmary? Could they now refuse to time-travel when he suggests it? It was now impossible that time-traveling Harry2 not produce the Patronus because pre-time-taveling Harry1 saw it ? so did Harry and Hermione really have any choice but to use the Time-Turner? Or is Dumbledore knowing what must have happened and Harry1 seeing the Patronus simply irrelevant to the question of free will? That is, Dumbledore simply knew what they had freely chosen. And, incidentally, why did Dumbledore come running into the Infirmary then? What did he know and when did he know it? And while I'm asking incidental questions: why would the Dementors attack Harry any way? Sirius, yes, but why go after Harry with the Dementor's Kiss? Richard "I Brake for House Elves" Jones From weaslediva at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 20:00:54 2005 From: weaslediva at yahoo.com (Deborah Hunt) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest -- DEADLINE NOW 12 Midnight Thursday/Fri AM EDT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711200054.24049.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132470 I wasn't sure if my set of predictions got through to you or not. SO here they are just in case. I want to be able to be really wrong or really right just like everyone else! :) From Weaslediva alias Deborah. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? - Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? -Ron. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) -She took the Elixer of Life. That?s how she was able to save Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? -McClaggan, the Lion-guy. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? -Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones but only for a little while. She will be assassinated and replaced by Umbridge. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? -Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? - yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes. After all, Snape is his boggart and Neville will have to overcome Snape. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Twelve! So did Ron. Hermione got more OWLS than any student ever. PREDICTIONS (0-10 points each): 1. Ginny will be injured severely defending Harry. 2. Hermione will be attacked by Draco. 3. Ron will have headaches. Everyone will be afraid this is from the brain attack or being imperio-ed. This will cause him to be put out of the Quidditch team and when the war starts, he will be sidelined. He will keep himself busy helping in the infirmary where he discovers he is good at healing. 4. Harry and Ron will both be recognized as Seers ? Harry with Dreams and Ron with reading the future centaur-style. Luna will be in their class, even though she is younger, because Firenze groups by talent, not age. We will finally find out what ?Uranus? is symbolic of. 5. Sirius? motorbike is in the Weasley shed and the Weasleys will give it to Harry. This makes for a symbolic gift from Sirius, the Weasleys, and from Hagrid who rode the bike when delivering Harry to the Durleys. Harry leaves the Dursleys early to celebrate with Ron and Hermione their good OWL scores. The Burrow will have the Death Mark appear on it and there will be a Weasley death. The Chamber of Secrets is like an Egyptian tomb. There will be a reference to Moon-calves. Debora __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmadams at att.net Mon Jul 11 20:49:08 2005 From: vmadams at att.net (torimarie_1216) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:49:08 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 3 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132471 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Remus Lupin's brother, Romulus 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was a seer. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Viktor Krum 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, poor guy. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 5 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. It will be revealed that Neville Longbottom is not merely forgetful, but suffers from the effects of a very strong memory charm. 2. Percy Weasley will reunite with his family, though under very strained circumstances. 3. Harry will somehow be able to see Sirius in the pieces of the magic mirror. 4. Ron Weasley will become the new Gryffindor quidditch captain. 5. Harry will miss the sorting again. Torimarie From magalud at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 20:12:33 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blaise Zabini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711201233.34633.qmail@web52112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132472 Samantha wrote: I am slowly being drove crazy?? Exactly WHERE is Blaise Zabini mentioned in the books? I have read each book four or five times, and I don't remember them being mentioned. Samantha The wonderful Blaise Zabini is introduced to us in the first book. Chapter Seven, "The Sorting Hat", which is on page 91 of my Bloomsbury book. You may have adifferent edition, though. It goes like this: "Well done, Ron, excellent", said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise" was made a Slytherin. Magalud SnapeFest 2005! Segunda parte em breve Orgulhosa keeper da voz sexy de Severus Snape e do seu sorrisinho sarc?stico My fanfic: http://www.geocities.com/snapesecrets From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 21:13:46 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:13:46 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132473 Samantha wrote: "Exactly WHERE is Blaise Zabini mentioned in the books?" Del replies: During Harry's Sorting. He's the last one being Sorted, if I remember well. Make sure you have a *complete* edition, though. I know that the French edition, for example, didn't have everything, at one time (I use the past tense because they might have corrected that since, I wouldn't know). Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 21:16:10 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:16:10 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: Samantha: > Hi fellow potterphiles! > I am slowly being drove crazy?? Exactly WHERE is Blaise Zabini > mentioned in the books? I have read each book four or five times, and > I don't remember them being mentioned. Geoff: The only recollection I have is: 'And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Turpin, Lisa" became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry crossed his fingers under the table and a second later, the hat had shouted "GRYFFINDOR!" Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair next to him. "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise" was made a Slytherin.' (PS "The Sorting Hat" p.91 UK edition) The Lexicon adds the additional information that JKR has confirmed that he is a male student. (I've always maintained this because of Blaise Pascal, the famous French mathematician). From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 11 21:33:36 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:33:36 -0000 Subject: and Theo Nott..Re: Blaise Zabini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132475 Geoff: > The Lexicon adds the additional information that JKR has confirmed that > he is a male student. (I've always maintained this because of Blaise > Pascal, the famous French mathematician). Potioncat: Yes, I guess for a while there was a big discussion on whether Blaise was a boy or girl. Then it became which of the two vaguely described boys was Blaise and which was Theo. At the moment, Blaise is the one we know the least about. And that't saying a lot! There's also been the observation that quite a few Slytherins are named after saints. Blaise is one. (or so I'm told.) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 21:35:17 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:35:17 -0000 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: <20050711181346.46128.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: Mira: > Hi Sherry, > An interesting prediction is Gabrielle being Harry's > love interest. She is a bit young for him at this age, > but on the other hand, it is the only truly realistic > romanting development Jo can throw at us (IMHO). Harry > might meet her at Bill and Fleur's engagement party, > and notice how she had grown into a very beautiful > young woman, Gabrielle will be smitten with him > because he saved her two years ago, and so on, and so > forth. I would believe it much sooner than Harry > suddenly noticing how one of the girls he's seeing > every day at Hogwarts is really more attractive than > he thought. So, whether it is true or not, well done > to anybody who made this prediction. But perhaps Harry > will date more than one girl. Geoff: I shall go into maverick mode at this point. Why has Harry got to have a girl friend at this point in time? Why can't he remain a bachelor boy for the moment? Looking at the members of my church boys' club, who are aged about the same as Harry in the OOTP/HBP time frame, quite a number of them have not got girl friends... yet. Again, it will be very frustrating for any girl if, in the middle of getting a kiss from the Boy Who Lived, he breaks off and exits with a cursory: "Excuse me. I have to go and kill Voldemort now. I'll see you later." :-) From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 21:39:20 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:39:20 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132477 > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasly > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) A new character > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) something to do with her green eyes, some special ability to do with the eyes. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. i think Harry and the others will be really pleased to find that they dont have snape for potions any more, only to find that he is now teaching DADA. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? in book 6- Cho. and maybe breifly, a minor charater such as Susan Bones > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mme Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? its got to be a penseive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes- i also think he will remarkably get a really good mark on his potions OWLS > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. More info about Godric Gryffindor will feature in the book. it will turn out that Harry is related to him 2. Fred and George will develop some new inventions, which will help out the order of the phoenix in some way. through this, they will gain more respect for their joke shop buisiness. 3. snape is part vampire 4. we find out more about the night when Harry's parents were killed. It turns out that Voldemort didn't die when the spell rebounded off harry because of an ancient magic to do with Voldemort being the last decendant of slytherin and harry being a deendant of Gryffindor 5. a battle takes place in the depths of gringotts bank between goblins and death eaters Philippajrice From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 21:48:12 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:48:12 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: Karen: > The number refers to the number of courses in which you achieve an > OWL. They are the same as the GCE 'O' levels exams in RL Britain (now > called GCSEs). Geoff: Being pedantic, GCSEs are not the same as GCE O levels (= General Certificate of Education Ordinary levels). O Levels date from 1951 and were for more academic students, less academics pupils often leaving school without anything formal. O levels were awarded as letter grades). In 1965, CSE (Certificate of Secondary Education) exmainations were introduced as a second level of attainment and given numerical gradings. In 1986, the two systems were combined into the GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education), retaining the numerical system of gradings. Karen: > You take a subject in school for 2 years and then you sit a public > examination. This may consist of 1, 2, or more separate papers > (which usually took place on separate days, but you knew which > aspect of the subject was covered within each paper) each > comprising one OWL. There are various grades available depending > upon the percentage mark that you achive. In RL 'O'levels the > grades were A - E and also U -Ungraded (Troll!), where A-C were > passes and D and E were fails. Geoff: An increasing weight has been given to course work and project work so that the number of formal written papers has dropped in comparison with, say, twenty years ago. A rather important point in looking at this in comparison with the WW OWLs is that where a subject contains a practical/oral/course work element - say French or German for example - the written paper and the oral paper carry separate grades but a final single grade is given from an aggregation of the two. It is possible to pass in an oral paper and fail the written. I did it on my first go at German many years ago! From wintersweet001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:07:39 2005 From: wintersweet001 at yahoo.com (sweet winter) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP contest: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711220739.50564.qmail@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132479 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Neville Longbottom > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Justin Finch-Fletchley > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Why she started to date James Potter. She seemed to hate James during the first six years of hogwarts, so it is a bit awkward for her to marry him after they finish school, there must be a reason. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I think a new character will be the DADA teacher, because it goes with the prediction that this job is cursed and the existing professors are good at what they are teaching there is no reason to switch them > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood, because she is the only one that can approach Harry and talk about Sirius. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Susan Bone's aunt > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Penseive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes- probably to spite Severus Snape > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. we will find out why Voldermort was dead set on killing James and Lily Potter. 2. Ron and Hermione might suffer through a horrifying experience and found out that they are attracted to each other. 3. we will know why the marauders liked to make fun of Severus, and why Lily helped Severus 4. we will know why a pureblood superiorist such as Lucius Malfoy joined the deatheaters and bowed down to a half blood like Tom Riddle 5. We will find out what's behind the veil. Wintersweet Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Adult education Organizational culture Harry potter book --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 11 22:17:24 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711221724.4174.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132480 philippajrice wrote: >>>I don't understand why so many people think Godric Gryffindor is going to turn out to be the half blood prince. Gryffindor wouldn't have been half blood. If he was then Salazar Slytherin wouldn't have been best friends with him (before they fell out). I think if the term 'half blood prince' refers to a literal prince, then it wouldn't be Gryffindor. The four founders of hogwarts had to be equal. If Gryffindor was a prince then he would have been the leader of the school. >>>I think the lion-like charater described by JKR could be Gryffindor, or he could be the half blood prince, but it isn't going to be both. It could be that lion-man is a decendant of Gryffindor, and also a decendant of a wizard royal family. >>snip<< I can't speak for everyone else, but for me I have read the title as the "champion (prince) of half-bloods", rather than "a prince who is half-blood". I think the HBP and GG are one and the same. I suspect we will "meet" him in the pensieve that we see on the cover of the US HBP. JMO Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 11 22:19:52 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:19:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] and Theo Nott..Re: Blaise Zabini Message-ID: <20e.4a7286c.30044a88@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132481 In a message dated 7/11/2005 5:58:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: There's also been the observation that quite a few Slytherins are named after saints. Blaise is one. (or so I'm told.) ===== Sherrie here: Blaise may or may not be a saint - not exactly my forte, that - but he WAS in some accounts the teacher/master of Merlin himself. - see the 13th century "Prose Merlin" (also called the "Vulgate Merlin", Robert de Moron's c. 1200 "Merlin", and of course, Malory). Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:22:47 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time-Travel and Free Will in POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711222248.49219.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132482 --- Richard Jones wrote: (snip snip) Wow, Richard you are giving me a headache ;) . Every time I think about time traveling it gets even more and more confusing. But the way I see it (and it's a bizarre theory), is that time is a loop, a ribbon that has no end, and neverending cycle, right? So if htere is no past, there is no future, AND if there isn't a future there is no past. So if Sirius has no future (after being kissed by a dementor), then he's got no past (and present). It's kinda complicated, but if you think of time as a LINE then you coul understand my theory, if the line has no end it has no beginning. Maybe Eistein could have explained it better ;) > And, incidentally, why did Dumbledore come running > into the Infirmary > then? What did he know and when did he know it? Because he had to reach Hary and Hermione before Sirius was kissed, because as I said before if Sirius has no future (post-kiss), then there's no past Sirius to save. > > And while I'm asking incidental questions: why would > the Dementors > attack Harry any way? Sirius, yes, but why go after > Harry with the > Dementor's Kiss? Lupin explained it to Harry after the Quidditch game against Ravenclaw: The dementors are hungry, they want, they need souls to feed on, so there was an opportunity, and they wanted to take it, that's it. > Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:26:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:26:43 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132483 Phoenixgod: > I actually think that Snape probably is going to drive more students > to the dark side, not less. He's not going to compromise his role as a > spy to give personal advice to his students. > > Tht would be a most unSlytherin thing to do :) > Alla: Oh, yes, most definitely. How exactly Snape is going to advice Slytherin students against going to Voldie without letting them know that he is NOT a loyal DE? To keep it from being a complete "Me too", or so I hope let me bring another side of this argument to light. :-) Many people defend Snape's treatment of Harry on the basis that he cannot treat the boy decently because Voldemort will realise that he is the double agent. Now, this argument never worked for me in the first place. I always thought that IF Snape is still a spy in the conventional way, it would be much more logical for him to treat Harry nicely to show Voldemort that he indeed IS in Dumbledore's good graces ( namely treating the boy whom Albus loves as a human being), BUT if one indeed argues that Snape cannot treat Harry normally out of fear that Voldie discovers his real loyalties, I think same should work for Slytherin students, no? Just my opinion, Alla. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:29:06 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD as HBP (was: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince?) In-Reply-To: <20050711221724.4174.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050711222906.75712.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132484 Chris wrote: > > I can't speak for everyone else, but for me I have > read the title as the "champion (prince) of > half-bloods", rather than "a prince who is > half-blood". I think the HBP and GG are one and the > same. I suspect we will "meet" him in the pensieve > that we see on the cover of the US HBP. > If it's the prince of half-bloods, then it must be Dumbledore or Arthur Weasley. Who else besides those two do we know that care for muggles, muggle-borns, and half-bloods? I think this HBP won't be a major character, just someone who's important, but we won't be seeing much of him, a bit like Fudge: we know who he is, people talk about him, but how many time has Harry met him? I can only remember of 4 or 5, in 5 books! not a lot. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:36:11 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest entry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050711223611.42986.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132485 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Snape 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) There is no secret 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, but he'd leave her later in fear for her life by being associated with him. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He'd pass all except Divination Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 01. A junior DE/LV's army-ish thing is forming secretly among Hogwart students, a 'who can be trust' suspicion is clouded among the student body. 02. Draco will pretend to have a change of heart and truced with Trio, but really with the true intent to infiltrate DA and reveal to be in the new LV's army, only to be scared to confusion at the final showdown between the good guys and Voldemort. But it was too late to be chicken out (like Regulus), he will ended up in an ordeal like Peter, being frightened to forced to follow and continue to aid the boss. 03. A romantic relationship starts developing between Lupin and Tonks. 04. Bill and Fleur is planning to get married. 05. Snape will get 'sacked', in the way (mysterious disappearance) which he'd no longer be teaching in Hogwarts by the end of the book, and readers will left to wonder his whereabout and his true loyalties (appear more to be the traitor). Harry will insist Snape is a traitor, but Dumbledore still insist he trust Snape before he died. D. From grega126 at aol.com Mon Jul 11 22:40:49 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:40:49 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132486 "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I actually think that Snape probably is going to drive more students > to the dark side, not less. He's not going to compromise his role as a > spy to give personal advice to his students. > > Tht would be a most unSlytherin thing to do :) > > phoenixgod2000 But that's my point. Is Snape going to drive more students to the "dark side" (insert ominus Vader breathing here)? If his whole house ends up as DE's then he's been a complete failure as a teacher. The only reason he was at Hogwarts for 15 years was personal safety, to protect himself and is therefore a complete failure as a teacher. If, however, he's been able to form enough close friendships, get enough people jobs far away from the coming conflict that he's able to save some of them from that life, then I'll go ahead and call him a success. Sure he made Harry's life miserable, but even ask Harry what he'd prefer. Snape having treated him like crap for 5 years, or an additional 50 DE's he has to worry about. No real contest. Greg From magalud at yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:29:15 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] and Theo Nott..Re: Blaise Zabini In-Reply-To: <20e.4a7286c.30044a88@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050711222916.51680.qmail@web52102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132487 Potioncat writes: There's also been the observation that quite a few Slytherins are named after saints. Blaise is one. (or so I'm told.) magalud here: Yes, Blaise was a saint. Bishop and martyr who lived on the 4th century as St. Blasius. Check out Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02592a.htm Magalud --------------------------------- Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorbandb at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 00:15:49 2005 From: dorbandb at yahoo.com (dorbandb) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:15:49 -0000 Subject: HBP leaked... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132488 Yahoo is reporting that HBP was briefly for sale in Vancouver... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050711/wl_canada_nm/canada_media_potter_canada_col hope that link worked. Ah well, you'll hear soon enough. As much as I'd like to say that I'd *never* read *anything* before it was *officially* released by Herself, I'm tickled to imagine that *someone* is reading IT at this very moment... ....without a shred of remorse ;-) Brian (not best known for his patience, but in this case, I can wait.) From arielock at aol.com Tue Jul 12 00:52:56 2005 From: arielock at aol.com (arielock2001) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:52:56 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132489 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Cho or Trelawney 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? a) she was a metamorphmagus. b) she was a DADA teacher. Her death spawned the "no one has lasted more than a year" rumor. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone we haven't met yet. DD will teach it in the last book. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hannah Abbott. I suspect he will wind up with Ginny in the end, but they will only become close friends this year. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's pensive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? of course, as will Hermione and Draco. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Not this year. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All that he attempted Five Predictions: 1. Hermione will be allowed to apparate (outside the Hogwarts grounds obviously) as soon as she turns 17 (a few weeks into the semester). Both Harry and Ron will be jealous. 2. Harry is going back into the Chamber of Secrets, possibly with DD and Fawkes. 3. We will return to Knockturn Alley. 4. Fred and George make quite a bit of money at their joke shop. 5. We will find out that Petunia was at least one year younger than Lily. She saw her older sister Lily go to Hogwarts, and thought that it must be most wonderful place in the world. Petunia probably couldn't wait until she was old enough to go, too. Both sisters (who may have been very close at that point) and their parents must have expected little Petunia to get a Hogwarts letter the year she turned 11. Every break Lily would come home and show little Petunia all the amazing things she learned. Lily told her how much fun she would have when she was old enough to join her. It must have been the most painful moment of Petunia's life when she realized that she was not magical (as she probably believed she was) and would never become a part of that world. She felt like a failure. She hates the wizarding world so passionately because, at one time, she loved it, believed it was in her future, and it rejected her. I mean, honestly, doesn't this just make sense? She raised Dudley to hate Harry and magic so that her child would never suffer the pain of wanting what she knew he would never have. Extra predictions, worth no credit, only bragging rights: 1. Tom Riddle was a Seeker (more likely to learn this in book 7, though). 2. Peter will live through this book, because he will somehow kill Voldemort in book 7. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:35:23 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:35:23 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132490 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore (Molly Weasley and Percy will also die.) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor or Dumbledore 3. What is Lily's big secret? That she was a seer. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Godric Gryffindor 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny if anyone 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's penseive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, so will Ron. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? The highest possible Predictions (0-10 points each): Percy's actions may cause one (or both) Weasley parents to die. Percy will later sacrifice himself to save Ron. We will find out that Snape did some very ugly things as a DE. Neville's uncle, uncle Algie, will have a larger role in book 6. Neville will get a new wand and become more confident. It's also possible that his parents will be killed and that his frog is an animagus (or that his parents minds are somehow trapped in the frog). Harry will start to notice Ginny but will not act on his feelings for her, fearing that Voldemort may target her. Ron will start to have memories that are not his own. The brain that attacked Ron will turn out to be Flamel. Ginny knows something that can help Harry defeat Voldemort but she does not yet realize it's importance. Snape's worst memory is more important than we think. Snape was angry, not because the memory embarassed him, but because he is hiding something. Teenage Snape figured out that Lupin was a werewolf during the exam Harry saw in the penseive memory. (JKR makes a point to tell us that question 10 was an essay on the characteristics of a werewolf. She has James and gang joke about the essay afterward.) Snape put two and two together and realized that Lupin was a werewolf (just like Hermione did when Snape gave the same essay to Lupin's students). We will find out that Snape intended to kill Lupin during the night of the prank but was thwarted by James who decided to save him. Harry noticed that Lupin looked strange during Snape's penseive memory and wondered if the full moon was approaching. The prank happened the same day of the exams. Snape pulled Harry's head out of the penseive before Harry could see what happened that night. Vivian From anurim at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:35:58 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Gabrielle (was JKR and the obvious) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712013558.36251.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132491 --- delwynmarch wrote: > Del replies: > Er... Wasn't Gabrielle something like *eight*, in > GoF?? You're probably right. I seemed to remember it was something around ten or eleven, which would make her a suitable age now. If she was 8, then no way she can come back as a romantic interest, unless Harry appreciated her age wrong or a Veela ages at different speed than normal people. She would have been a good choice, not a new character but somebody we don't know very well just yet. Another prediction I like a lot is Amos Diggory for MoM. It would make for quite an interesting story. > Del replies: > You mean like Ron going (paraphrase) "Hermione, > Neville's right, you > ARE a girl" after more than 3 years of friendship > with her, or Harry > finding Hermione pretty at the Yule Ball just > because she put on a > nice dress and made her hair up :-) ? Ron is Ron, I haven't seen Harry meeting such revelations yet. He notices that Parvati looks very pretty indeed and Hermione seems different at the Yule Ball, but it is still Cho he is keen on. He saw Luna last year for the first time, he had a chance to notice how attractive she is, if he ever will. He saw the new Ginny and it didn't move him in any way. He sees Susan every week, for that matter. It's true that he might not make his next choice based on looks alone, as he did with Cho. Or perhaps one girl will get hold of him and steer him through the motions of a romantic involvement. We have seen Parvati doing it with the dance steps. Geoff: > I shall go into maverick mode at this point. > Why has Harry got to have a girl friend at this point > in time? Why > can't he remain a bachelor boy for the moment? We can go maverick together (which would make for an exemplary oxymoron) and say that Harry will meet Gabrielle again and fall for her scar over heels, but since she is too young, he will have to stay single for a while yet and wait for her. :) Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kndrtchr at earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 01:36:38 2005 From: kndrtchr at earthlink.net (Rebecca Jasman) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:36:38 -0400 Subject: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <1121121651.1799.74605.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132492 I was wondering why no one has mentioned Dean Thomas as a possibility for the Half Blood Prince. JKR stated in the extra stuff area on her website that he was a half-blood, and we really don't know anything about his father. Rebecca. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:45:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:45:29 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132493 Petunia is the witch that gains powers late in life. HAHA serves her right! Vivian From htfulcher at comcast.net Tue Jul 12 01:46:41 2005 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:46:41 -0000 Subject: Philospher's Stone Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132494 In the Philospher's Stone, Rone tries to turn his rat yellow. It doesn't work. My daughter made the observation that this was probably not because Ron was inexperienced or using a worn out wand but because Scabbers was actually wormtail. Has this been discussed? M.E. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:47:42 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:47:42 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132495 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E One of the stickers on JKR's trunk that the signed copy of HBP was delivered in says "Godric's Hollow, London" on it. Is this a hint about where GH actually is? See pic (Spoilers?) http://www.mugglenet.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=915 TK -- TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:53:15 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:53:15 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- Tiger's entry Redux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132496 I'm not only entering my own contest, I'm changing my answers. I'm too type-A to resist. Minion recruitment begins next week. Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Luna. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A new character, who is a member of the British royal family and whose parents are a wizard and a muggle, enrolls at Hogwarts (like Prince William went to Eton). 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an Unspeakable in the Dept. of Mysteries, researching Time, Love, and immortality. She would not give Voldy these secrets (thus "defying" him.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character who is useless like Lockhart but neither a servant of Voldy like Quirrelmort nor evil him/herself like Umbridge, probably female, who drones on and on and is boring. One lecture will be about something like Melting. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione. (Please JKR! Hermione! We are all Hermione-geeks inside, and we want the hero to love us because we love him!) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ancient Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9. Five Predictions: 1. There is a wedding, probably Bill and Fleur. Umbridge or Percy try to arrest the bride and groom. The bride and groom escape using two invisibility cloaks. 2. Harry does not get into NEWT-level DADA (remember Umbridge's evil grin at the end of Harry's OWLs?), and he is mortified, but he and three others (Ron, Hermione, and Neville) take special DADA lessons from Dumbledore. 3. Fawkes is instrumental in the preparation of a vital and secret potion. 4. With Hermione's help, the House Elves are liberated from the congenital Imperius Curse that they have long been enslaved under. The Hogwarts' Elves stay loyal to Dumbledore and emerge from the walls when they are desperately needed. 5. Near the end of the book, Harry and the DA launch a direct offensive against Voldy and the DE. When it goes horribly, disastrously wrong, Harry fakes his own death and hides in Dumbledore's office and the Room of Requirement. Extra predictions, worth no credit, only bragging rights: Professor Sinistra (Astronomy) is related to Sirius Black. She inherits 12 Grimmauld Place. Someone who has been kissed by a Dementor gets his soul back. Three new spells or other magic: SANITAS. NIX. HASTA. (Health. Snow. Lance.) Harry goes back to the MoM, specifically to the Planets room, and the Sun in the center of the planets is very bright and reflects like a hall of mirrors. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 01:54:28 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:54:28 -0000 Subject: Philospher's Stone Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > In the Philospher's Stone, Rone tries to turn his rat yellow. It > doesn't work. My daughter made the observation that this was probably > not because Ron was inexperienced or using a worn out wand but because > Scabbers was actually wormtail. > > Has this been discussed? > > M.E. vmonte: It doesn't work because Fred and George did not give Ron a real spell. I think this scene was meant as a joke. JKR told us right away that Wormtail was a coward. Ron did not have to turn the rat "yellow" because the rat was already "yellow." Vivian From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 02:08:11 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 02:08:11 -0000 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: <20050711181346.46128.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132498 Mira: "The idea about a spy in the Order is also good and likely to come true. The most surprising and thus the less obvious, for me, would be that Dumbledore himself is a spy ('He is no more DE than I am', 'If we cannot trust Dumbledore we cannot trust anybody' etc), and that he does the right thing only because it is to his advantage. But I really don't believe this is true. It will all be so pointless if it is." It would also be the biggest betrayal of her readers by an author ever. It would be unforgivable. What would JKR be telling her readers if she made Dumbledore evil, a spy? 1) Nobody is any damn good; 2) Get others before they get you; every man for himself, and 3) Good is not real. Only evil is real. I don't think for a minute that's what JKR's doing. Mira:"An interesting prediction is Gabrielle being Harry's love interest. She is a bit young for him at this age, but on the other hand, it is the only truly realistic romantic development Jo can throw at us (IMHO)." We've wondered about the legal system in the wizard world, but there's laws in the Muggle world against this. The girl will be ten in HBP year, assuming she was in fact eight in Goblet of Fire. `Ron was tied between Hermione and Cho Chang. There was also a girl who looked no older than eight, whose clouds of silvery hair made Harry feel sure that she was Fleur Delacour's sister.' What makes her a credible romantic interest for a sixteen year old boy? What's unrealistic about any of the girls we already know? Jim Ferer From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 02:10:49 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 02:10:49 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > One of the stickers on JKR's trunk that the signed copy of HBP was > delivered in says "Godric's Hollow, London" on it. Is this a hint > about where GH actually is? See pic (Spoilers?) > > http://www.mugglenet.com/gallery/details.php?image_id=915 > > TK -- TigerPatronus I just checked the picture, it also has many other stickers: Azkaban, Diagon Alley, Rock on the sea (PS), Scholastic, Queen Mary, Hogwarts Express... This are all places we've heard about, so what's the spoiler there? We already know Godric's Hollow is a village (under FAQ a JKR's site)... I'm not Brtitish so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can a village be inside a city? it doesn't make sense to me, but I could be wrong. Juli From vividscribbler at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 02:22:28 2005 From: vividscribbler at yahoo.com (vividscribbler) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 02:22:28 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132500 Rebecca: > I was wondering why no one has mentioned Dean Thomas as a possibility for > the Half Blood Prince. JKR stated in the extra stuff area on her website > that he was a half-blood, and we really don't know anything about his > father. Viv: In that same entry, JKR mentions that she forwent Dean's story for Neville's. To me, that meant that Neville is more important to the story than Dean. If Dean were to be so important as to have the entire sixth book named after him, I think that it would have been the other way around, and we'd have seen far less of Neville and far more of Dean. From bdeitrick at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 02:37:11 2005 From: bdeitrick at gmail.com (Beata Wai Ieng Ho Deitrick) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:37:11 +0900 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time-Travel and Free Will in POA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132501 Richard Jones wrote: > Notice that when Dumbledore first walked into the Infirmary at > around 11:55 PM and saw Harry and Hermione, he must have realized > that they had in fact already decided to time-travel and had in > fact succeeded in their time-traveling mission ? for if they had > not succeeded, they would have had the Dementor's Kiss applied and > would not be in their condition in the Infirmary at that time. So > he knew they must have accepted their time-traveling mission and > accomplished their task before he asked them! > > So is Dumbledore's foreknowledge compatible with Harry and > Hermione's free will? That is, Dumbledore already knew they must > have done it ? so did they then really have any free will in the > matter? Or did they somehow exercise free will before Dumbledore > arrived at the Infirmary? Could they now refuse to time-travel > when he suggests it? I heard this explanation a while ago about time travel: Say your friend has the ability to time travel. She traveled to a week later, saw you and her buying ice cream and saw that you bought chocolate. She didn't tell you what she saw; you went to get ice cream together, and you choose chocolate. Just because she knew that you chose chocolate doesn't mean that you didn't go through the decision process and decide upon chocolate. In fact, she couldn't have affected your decision process unless she intervened in the future, which Harry and Hermione weren't allowed to do. So even if Dumbledore knew that Harry and Hermione would go back in time, it doesn't mean that their free-will was taken away. Dumbledore just happened to know what they would choose (kind of like how some people know their best friendso so well they know what they would do/say in certain situations). Beata Deitrick (BTW - I'm new. So hi to everyone! I've really enjoyed all the intellectual talk on this board about Harry Potter and can't wait for the HBP) From mrsroper68 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 03:15:26 2005 From: mrsroper68 at hotmail.com (Tilly) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:15:26 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 7 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132502 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Cho Chang! > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The boy Hermonie liked in HPOP that quiddith player....from Durmstag.....gosh what is his name..........I'm sure someone will have it.... > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She had another child - hence the "Half Blood Prince" she was a muggle after all but maybe the father is Severus......hummmmm one wonders... > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A Ghost at least technically it can't die again. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Someone from HufflePuff or Raven Claw - no one from his own house and it probably will not happen till the end of the book because of the Cho Chang issue of her untimely death.... > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Albus Dumbledore...... > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The Penseive-not Dumbledore's nor Snape's. I think there is much more to be learned from it.... > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? I don't think he has much choice...... > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes again I don't think he'll have much choice either. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He got all OWLS in everything. As for the 5 perdictions, I'm not sure I have that many but here goes with what I think is going to happen... I think that the Cho Chang relationship is very much a sore subject for Harry - he still has feelings for her and she will die this book for obvious reasons - he loves her so Voldemort will kill her to make him mad.... I also think on a bad note that Hermonie (sp?) will also have relationship issues one being that the boy she loves will be Harry's Half brother and in the end "the Half Blood Prince" so Ron and her will be at each others throat and Harry and Ron eventually will have nothing to do with her because of it. On a good note I think that the ghost of Black will appear I doubt as the teacher of DADA's but maybe. On another good note I think Neville's parents will also wake and be more help then anyone else in helping Harry fight Voldemort causing issues with their own son Neville. I think that The Weasleys paticullary Percy could suffer a near death experience leaving all to find out that he was really working for Dumbledore didn't we all expect that..... Fun questions - I'm betting not much of the above is going to be but you never know it sure would be fun. Thanks .....Looking to Saturday 12:01 am....... Nikki From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 12 04:23:44 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:23:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Gabrielle (was JKR and the obvious) Message-ID: <90.61898831.30049fd0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132503 In a message dated 7/11/2005 8:36:18 PM Central Standard Time, anurim at yahoo.com writes: Ron is Ron, I haven't seen Harry meeting such revelations yet. He notices that Parvati looks very pretty indeed and Hermione seems different at the Yule Ball, but it is still Cho he is keen on. Yes he does notice that Parvati looks pretty. And yes he was still keen on Cho but his reaction to Hermione is a just a tad bit more involved than "Hermione seems different". >From GOF "The Yule Ball" The oak front doors opened, and everyone turned to look as the Durmstrang students entered with Professor Karkaroff. Krum was at the front of the party, accompanied by a *pretty girl in blue robes* Harry didn't know. ::snipped bit where McG is calling the champions to the front :: Cedric and Cho were close to Harry too; he looked away from them so he wouldn't have to talk to them. His eyes fell instead on the girl next to Krum. *His jaw dropped*. It was Hermione. But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently, somehow - or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back. She was also smiling - rather nervously, it was true - but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticeable than ever; Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before.:: Ummm what color dress robes was Ginny wearing? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 04:28:54 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:28:54 -0000 Subject: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132504 In PS, the Sorting Hat took "a long time" to decide which house to put Neville in. I'm curious as to which other house or houses the SH was considering putting Neville in. Was the SH only considering Gryffindor and one other house, as with Harry? If so, which one? Or was it an even tougher choice between two or three other houses? Unless there are character traits about Neville that have not been revealed, my guess is that the other house would be Hufflepuff House, for those who are "patient," "just," "loyal," and "true". Neville does not appear to be "cunning" as the SH described Slytherins, or of "a ready mind" or "of wit and learning" as the SH described Ravenclaws. Of course, at the beginning, Neville did not seem to be brave and daring either, and those are traits the SH used to describe Gryffindors which he seemed to take on in OOP (which shows that the SH was right). The same question could also be asked regarding Seamus, since JKR made it a point to explain that the SH took a whole minute before it sorted him into Gryffindor. Angie From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 05:02:17 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:02:17 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" > wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E > > > > One of the stickers on JKR's trunk that the signed copy of HBP was delivered in says "Godric's Hollow, London" on it. Is this a hint about where GH actually is? See pic (Spoilers?) > ------- > I just checked the picture, it also has many other stickers: > Azkaban, Diagon Alley, Rock on the sea (PS), Scholastic, Queen Mary, Hogwarts Express... This are all places we've heard about, so what's the spoiler there? > Tonks: I am really confused. It takes a long time for something to come to the U.S. by boat. Why would they send it by boat instead of air?? Especially if it is only one box? And how long have they been printed? Think backwards. Are they Scholastic books signed by JKR? If so they would have had to have been printed by Scholastic and shipped to her and she would sign them and send them back.. by BOAT?? That would have taken.. a couple of months, round trip at least. Is it really possible?? Tonks_op From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jul 12 05:40:46 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:40:46 -0000 Subject: BedsiDDe/LeakyC/Legilimency/Myrtle/Hermione/God/CATPOO/Taxes/Warlock Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132506 Betsey Hp wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131927 : << Does Dumbledore routinely visit *their* bedsides when they're sick? >> Like Alla (in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131940 ), I think he might. I don't think there are *that* many students in hospital wing at any given time (for example, Pepper-Up Potion appears to prevent flu epidemics). This doesn't disagree with your main point -- I doubt that the comforting words of wisdom he gives the others are as personalized as the ones he gives Harry. Still, I feel sure that Dumbledore (who, after all, is super-wizard) knows the names, faces, Houses, elective subjects, marks, hobbies, family situations, etc of ALL Hogwarts students. So they could be somewhat personalized. Adi wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/131929 : << Introducing Leaky to harry , he says it's a famous place. Why is it famous? There are after all other bars in winzarding world. So why should this dingy bar be famouse? >> It might be famous because of something that happened there -- maybe even a famous wizard was turned into a newt in a bar fight there. But I think more likely its fame concerns being a connection between Muggle and wizarding worlds. I fantasize that the way Muggles send mail to wizards is sending it by Muggle mail to an address which is an upper floor of one of the Muggle businesses next door to the Leaky Cauldron, from which Tom the landlord collects it daily and brings it to the Owl Post office in Diagon Alley. (I assume that the outer envelope contains some money to pay for the owl as well as the letter in its own envelope.) Steve bboyminn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132127 : << In fact, in the Occlumency lessons with Harry, Snape does not use the /skill/ of Legilimency at all, instead, he uses the Legilimens /Spell/. That implies he probably doesn't have more than a very basic passing ability in Legilimency, if he has any skill at all. >> I agree that he used the Spell rather than the Skill of Legilimency during the Occlumency lessons, but not that he doesn't have the skill of Legilimency. There are too many scenes where it makes sense that he is Legilimensing Harry. For example, CoS (UK paperback p 109): <<"But why not join the feast afterward?" said Snape, his black eyes glittering in the candlelight. "Why go up to that corridor?" Ron and Hermione looked at Harry. "Because - because -" Harry said, his heart thumping very fast; something told him it would sound very far-fetched if he told them he had been led there by a bodiless voice no one but he could hear, "because we were tired and wanted to go to bed," he said. "Without any supper?" said Snape, a triumphant smile flickering across his gaunt face. "I didn't think ghosts provided food fit for living people at their parties." "We weren't hungry," said Ron loudly as his stomach gave a huge rumble. Snape's nasty smile widened. "I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely truthful," he said. "It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain privileges until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he should be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch team until he is ready to be honest." >> If Snape WAS Legilimensing Harry, he knew very well that Harry was lying, and hungry, and maybe even that being led by mysterious voices was the top explanation on Harry's mind. Cynthia paddyandnick wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132101 : << She wants to go as Moaning Myrtle, but we can't figure out which house she belonged to. >> Personally, I think Myrtle was a Slytherin. She seems very determined about getting her own way, especially about vengefully haunting Olive Hornby. Davenclaw wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132145 : << Hermione: She says (I think in OotP) that she was considered for Ravenclaw >> I think Hermione has a LOT of Slytherin traits: ambition and also cunning schemes and dubious means to achieve her ends, such as the whole Polyjuice Potion thing in CoS, where she nagged her friends into it, deceived Lockhart (easy enough!) to get a note to get improper access to the Restricted Section, had Harry throw a firecracker in Potions class so she could steal potion ingredients from Snape, and finally she DRUGGED Crabbe and Goyle with sleeping potion. Brian Brinkman wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132160 : << No character has referenced God (or any other known ultimate reality), yet. No one has even said, "Oh God," or "Thank God." >> Ginger replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132184 : << Um, actually it is said by Draco. On p. 113 of the US paperback, when he attends Hagrid's first class he says, "God, this place is going to the dogs." >> So does Fudge: << The face of Cornelius Fudge appeared upside-down over Harry; it looked white, appalled. "My God ? Diggory!" it whispered. "Dumbledore ? he's dead!">> Dungrollin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132188 : << But what about Crouch Senior? We never saw DD and Crouch together, except in the Pensieve, where they hardly had the opportunity to give us clues about their relationship. >> GoF chapter 17 << Mr Crouch seemed to come out of a deep reverie. "Yes," he said, "instructions. Yes ... the first task ..." He moved forwards into the firelight. Close to, Harry thought he looked ill. There were dark shadows beneath his eyes, and a thin, papery look about his wrinkled skin that had not been there at the Quidditch World Cup. (snip) Mr Crouch turned to look at Dumbledore. "I think that's all, is it, Albus?" "I think so," said Dumbledore, who was looking at Mr Crouch with mild concern. "Are you sure you wouldn't like to stay at Hogwarts tonight, Barty?" >> << I don't necessarily think they particularly liked each other, but they may well have shared a good deal of information about fighting Voldy. The head of the Order of the Phoenix, and the head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement exchanging information and working together. Sounds plausible, right? >> But I thought the *reason* for having an Order of the Phoenix was that Dumbledore approved neither of Crouch's methods nor of the Ministry's information leakage. DUngrollin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132338 : << You remember when Crouch!Moody told Neville that Professor Sprout had said he was good at Herbology? Do you think Professor Sprout had ever said anything of the kind? No, neither do I. It was simply Crouch!Moody's way of getting the book describing Gillyweed into Harry's dormitory. From that moment on, though, from having had no confidence in anything at all, Neville believes (erroneously) that a *teacher* said that he's good at something. As his confidence in Herbology increases, so do his marks, until Herbology is clearly his best subject. >> Herbology was already his best subject in PS/SS: << Harry had almost forgotten that the exam results were still to come, but come they did. To their great surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks; Hermione, of course, had the best grades of the first years. Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for his abysmal Potions one. >> And *I* suppose that Professor Sprout had indeed said Neville was good in Herbology -- that way Fake!Moody knew to WHICH of Harry's roommates to slip the book. I fantasize a staff room conversation beginning when McGonagall came into the room, threw herself into a chair, and exclaimed something like: "That Neville Longbottom is a walking disaster area! Instead of turning his beetle into a button, he enlarged it until it exploded. What a mess in my classroom!" Then the other teachers replied with their own comments about Neville. In the BOOKS he didn't faint from a mandrake scream. Steve bboyminn asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132367 : << How do wizards deal with property taxes? Malfoy manor, I'm lead to believe, is a pretty significant mansion in Wiltshire. How does Malfoy manage to hide that from the taxman? How did the Black family deal with the taxman? >> I'm sure that the old family homes of old wizarding families, like the Malfoy and Blacks and Crouches, are outside our Muggle world, like Diagon Alley and Platform 9 3/4, so Muggle taxes are irrelevant to them. Because they took them out of the Muggle world before the Muggles had made any official records of them. For homes which were already officially recorded by Muggles before they were acquired by wizards, I imagine they settle for bewitching the official record (on paper or computer) so that it always shows that they're fully paid-up. Wizards who buy a house from Muggles and are not strong enough mages to cast that spell will just have to change Galleons to pounds at Gringotts and pay up. flyingmonkeypurple wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132460 : << I want to know what the difference between Warlocks and Wizards. I know that Warlocks are male witches in other shows but what are they in this book. The school is called Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Does this mean that Warlocks are included in this school or not, or do they go to a different school all together. They have never mentiond warlocks before. I'm just wondering. Help please!!! >> None of us know for sure (or if someone does, they haven't told). Some threads on the subject begin with the following posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106697 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23351 In those threads, Steve b_boymn suggests that 'wizards' are Western European and 'warlocks' are Eastern European. That doesn't explain why Dumbledore's title as chairman of the Wizengamot is Chief Warlock, and why Quidditch, a sport invented in England, is called 'the noble sport of warlocks'. My theory is that 'warlock' means a member of the wizarding parliament (which might be the Wizengamot, named as it is after the Saxon parliament, Witangemot). I assume that the word acquired additional meaning: as being chosen by your neighbors to represent them is something of an honor, 'warlock' came to mean a respected person, thus 'the noble sport of warlocks'; but public opinion of politicians being what it is, 'warlock' also came to mean a person full of hot air, which might explain the 'wild-looking' warlocks arguing over the latest issue of Transfiguration Quarterly at the Leaky Cauldron. There's a bit in OoP where Lupin says: "Dumbledore's 'been voted out of the Chairmanship of the International Confederation of Wizards... they've demoted him from chief Warlock on the Wizengamot... and they're talking about taking away his Order of Merlin, First Class, too.' If you remember Dumbledore's official Headmaster letterhead in PS/SS, his name was followed by "Order of Merlin, First Class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International Confed. of Wizards". There has long been discussion of what those titles could possibly mean. I think Order of Merlin, First Class, Grand Sorceror is the highest honor, perhaps given to people who have already been given the Order of Merlin a couple of times: Order of Merlin, third class Order of Merlin, second class Order of Merlin, first class Order of Merlin, first class, Sorceror Order of Merlin, first class, Grand Sorceror I think Supreme Mugwump is the title of the 'chairman' of the International [Con]federation of Wizards/Warlocks. (I think all those names have appeared in canon, and I think they all mean the same organization.) International Federation of Wizards, pages 90 and 120 of UK OoP International Federation of Warlocks, pages 30 and 128 of UK OoP International Confederation of Wizards, on DD's letterhead in SS and GoF ch.17 International Confederation of Warlocks' Statute of Secrecy in Mafalda Hopkirk's letter in CoS International Warlock Convention of 1289, also in CoS Fudge has been criticized by some members of the International Federation of Warlocks for informing the Muggle Prime Minister of the crisis. PoA As for 'warlock', I long held that it was a title meaning an elective representative to wizarding legislature council (so that the medieval Wizards' Council, precursor to the Ministry of Magic as we were told in the schoolbooks, could perfectly well be called the Warlocks' Council). I said, the Saxon meaning of "warlock = oath breaker" would apply quite well to the wizarding equivalent of a Congressman or M.P. While I was at it, I proposed that the Wizards' Council was earlier named the Witchingameet, based on the name 'Witangamot' of the Saxon parliament before the Norman Conquest. Wizengamot clearly is named from the same source, so I patted myself on the back for an "almost right" prediction. So now I am proposing that Warlock means 'member of the Wizengamot'. 'Chief Warlock' should mean Chairman of the Wizengamot. From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jul 12 06:02:11 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:02:11 -0000 Subject: Homorphus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132507 Shalimar mumweasley predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132421 : << We'll find out that the Homorphus charm is real and be able to free Lupin from his monthly curse. >> Tinglinger predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131947 : << The Homorphus Charm is legit and will be used by Harry on Luna >> Is two predictions a trend? I agree that the Homorphus Charm is real, because Lockhart stole his exploits, not invented them. I don't agree that the Homorphus Charm is a cure for lycanthropism, because if it were, someone would have tried it on Lupin by now, either his parents, who 'tried everything' or his clever friends who became Animagi for his sake. At first I thought it might put an end to the werewolf transformations permanently, but at the cost of tremendous brain damage to the person, but then I realized it MIGHT be the same spell that Black and Lupin used to make Pettigrew leave his rat form. So now I think that it turns the transformed human back into his/her human form for only a few moments. That's not a cure for lycanthropism, but it is long enough for the villagers to recognize one of their neighbors. Now that they know who the werewolf is, they can deal with him while he is still a mere human. One would hope that they would lock him in a secure cage before moonrise on the Full Moon night and release him when he turned human again, but I expect they probably just killed him in his sleep in his bed at New Moon. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 06:17:41 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:17:41 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > > We already know Godric's Hollow is a village (under FAQ a JKR's > site)... I'm not Brtitish so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can a > village be inside a city? it doesn't make sense to me, but I could > be wrong. > > Juli bboyminn: I think the "London...Godric's Hollow...London" sticker is a vague attempt at old travel stickers people used to place on their luggage to tell people where they have been. The Truck is suppose to have the appearance of an old 'steamer' trunk. It's possible that the person who created the artwork had seen images of this type of travel sticker, but really didn't understand them. Consequently, they created a 'sticker' that was somewhat contradictory. However, it's quite possible for a village to be inside a city, except now we call them neighborhoods or districts. Soho is in London, as are Covent Garden, Fulham, Mayfair, Chelsea, Bloomsbury, and many others. In fact, although only people familiar with London will get this, even London is in London. So, the sticker could also have said something like "London...SOHO...London". [Pointless Side Note: in one of my fan fictions, I made up a London neighborhoos called Bishop's Hill.] So, my guess is that either the person who made the sticker doesn't really understand travel stickers, or Godric's Hollow is a fake neighborhood in greater London. ...or none of the above. It could simply be a format, travel stickers, in which to display several familiar names from the story. Personally, I'm not sure I buy the fake London neighborhood idea. I've always suspected Gordic's Hollow was a small village in a somewhat remote area. Did I actually say anything here? Regardless...here it is. Steve/bboyminn From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 06:39:34 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:39:34 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" > > wrote: > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > S P O I L E R S P A C E > > > > > > One of the stickers on JKR's trunk that the signed copy of HBP > was delivered in says "Godric's Hollow, London" on it. Is this a > hint about where GH actually is? See pic (Spoilers?) > > ------- > > I just checked the picture, it also has many other stickers: > > Azkaban, Diagon Alley, Rock on the sea (PS), Scholastic, Queen > Mary, Hogwarts Express... This are all places we've heard about, so > what's the spoiler there? > > > > Tonks: > > I am really confused. It takes a long time for something to come to > the U.S. by boat. Why would they send it by boat instead of air?? > Especially if it is only one box? And how long have they been > printed? Think backwards. Are they Scholastic books signed by JKR? > If so they would have had to have been printed by Scholastic and > shipped to her and she would sign them and send them back.. by > BOAT?? That would have taken.. a couple of months, round trip at > least. Is it really possible?? > > Tonks_op It actually takes less than a week to get from Southampton to New York. I did it once about 17 years ago and we were at sea for 5 nights and I have a vague memory or idea that the voyage was slower than it needed to be just to give you 5 nights aboard, although that may be wrong. Ref an earlier question about a village being inside a city, London is actually made up of lots of villages that joined together as they grew. The City of London itself, also known as the square mile to indicate its size, is actually the financial district from Liverpool St Station around Threadneedle Street where the Bank of England is etc. The area that people think of as 'London' ie the House of Commons, Downing Street, Whitehall, Trafalgar Square is Westminster which was another village. Then there are Chelsea, Southwark, Greenwich, Marylebone and loads of others. Greater London is growing steadily. When I was at School Bromley to the south was in Kent and Stanmore to the north was in Middlesex, but they are both now London Boroughs. Having said that, I have always understood Godrick's Hollow to be a rural village somewhere - I couldn't see a picture with this particular sticker on, but as Tonks said the books were probably sent from the USA first so the box and stickers may have come from there in the first place. Karen From jmkearns at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 06:46:17 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:46:17 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132510 Karen: > The number refers to the number of courses in which you achieve an > OWL. They are the same as the GCE 'O' levels exams in RL Britain > (now called GCSEs). > > You take a subject in school for 2 years and then you sit a public > examination. This may consist of 1, 2, or more separate papers > (which usually took place on separate days, but you knew which > aspect of the subject was covered within each paper) each > comprising one OWL. There are various grades available depending > upon the percentage mark that you achive. In RL 'O'levels the > grades were A - E and also U - Ungraded (Troll!), where A-C were > passes and D and E were fails. John K: Maybe it's the math teacher in me, but I still can't work this so it makes sense with 12 being the maximum. The core classes are: Defense Against the Dark Arts Transfiguration Charms Potions Herbology Astronomy History of Magic And then each student may take up to three of the following, though Harry takes only two (Hermione: "Without Muggle Studies and Divination, I'll be able to have a normal schedule again" PA22) Divination Care of Magical Creatures Arithmancy Muggle Studies Ancient Runes Indeed there are 12 classes, but how could Percy and Barty Crouch, Jr. have each earned 12 OWLs? Hermione only managed to take all 12 for one year, thanks to the time turner. Now she's in 10, and Harry 9. It can't be THAT routine to hand out time turners to top students. I thought perhaps the practical examinations might be separate OWLs, but this would create so many OWLs (something like 16 for Harry, though I haven't counted precisely) that 12 would be fairly attainable, and indeed hardly a reason for Percy or Crouch Sr. to gloat. Any insights? From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 12 06:53:00 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:53:00 -0000 Subject: Sticker on JKR trunk from England - Spoiler? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboyminn: > I think the "London...Godric's Hollow...London" sticker is a vague > attempt at old travel stickers people used to place on their luggage > to tell people where they have been. > However, it's quite possible for a village to be inside a city, except > now we call them neighborhoods or districts. Soho is in London, as are > Covent Garden, Fulham, Mayfair, Chelsea, Bloomsbury, and many others. > In fact, although only people familiar with London will get this, even > London is in London. Geoff: Yes, but there are actually areas which have retained their name of Village. For tennis fans, if you go just up the hill from the famous Tennis grounds, you will find yourself in Wimbledon Village, so called to distinguish it from the later development which took place down in the valley when the railway arrived. There is also Highgate Village in North London which has retained the name. Isn't there also Greenwich Village in NY? Correct me if I'm wrong please. With reference to Godric's Hollow however, the implication has always been that it was out west somewhere. At the opening of PS in Little Whinging, which is in Surrey and thus close to the west or south-west of London, Hagrid appears with Harry and refers to flying over Bristol which is about 120 miles west of the capital. (For folk unfamiliar with London, to explain Steve's comment above. London to most folk, including ourselves, is usually viewed as Greater London which is roughly a circle of about 15-20 miles radius bounded by the M25 London Orbital Motorway but central London is made up of the City of Westminster which is the commercial and administrative centre and the City of London, the financial area - usually abbreviated to "The City") From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 07:15:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:15:32 -0000 Subject: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > In PS, the Sorting Hat took "a long time" to decide which house to > put Neville in. I'm curious as to which other house or houses the > SH was considering putting Neville in. ... > > ... my guess is that the other house would be Hufflepuff House, > ... > > ...edited... > > The same question could also be asked regarding Seamus, since JKR > made it a point to explain that the SH took a whole minute before it > sorted him into Gryffindor. > > Angie bboyminn: I've always assumed that Neville's sorting went something like Harry's, except while Harry argued against Slytherin, Neville argued against Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat suggested Gryffindor, and Neville said, no I can't be Gryffindor, I'm sure I must be a Hufflepuff. The Sorting Hat insisted on Gryffindor, but Neville asserted that he wasn't brave at all and therefore couldn't possibly be Gryffindor, and so on. Finally, the Sorting Hat emphatically told Neville he WAS brave and he would be in Gryffindor. Just one small problem, if Neville was 100% absolutely Gryffindor, the Sorting Hat wouldn't have waited for Neville's input, it would have just shouted out "Gryffindor!" and that would have been it. So, I do suspect that Neville does have some Hufflepuff qualities. Just as with Harry, the Sorting Hat was thinking out loud (in a manner of speaking), and when Neville heard what the Hat was saying, he disputed Gryffindor they way Harry disputed Slytherin. Seamus is another story. I've always suspected a trace of Slytherin in him, but mostly thought that was just my suspecious nature. Seamus doesn't seem exceptionally bright, nor does he seem especially hard working or loyal, but he's doesn't seem all that cunning or ambitious either. The problem is, we see his outward actions, not his internal character. Neither Harry nor Neville fancied themselves as especially brave, and while I'm sure they welcomed the opportunty to be a Gryffindor, I'm convinced neither felt worthy to be there. Time for some quotes- --- Sorcerer's Stone - Am Ed - PB - Pg149--- Sometimes, Harry noticed, the hat shouted out the house at once, but at others it took a little while to decide. "Finnegan, Seamus," the sandy-haired boy next to Harry in the line, sat on the stool for almost a whole minute before the hat declared him a Gryffidnor. - - - end quote - - - A minute is really quite along time under the circumstances, and it seems odd that Harry would take Seamus's sorting as the point to note that some sortings took longer than others. I've suspected something was up, but can't imagine what. --- Sorcerer's Stone - Am Ed - PB - Pg150--- ...Neville Longbottom... The hat took a long time to decide with Neville. When it finally shouted, "Gryffindor," - - - end quote - - - This open the opportunity for me to make a general comment on the nature of the Sorting Hat. Others have speculated that the Sorting Hat gives great weight to what the student wants, or what the student asks for. Of course, I will immediately point out that Harry never asked for Gryffindor, he simply said 'not Slytherin'. I simply can't believe that the Sorting Hat would use such superficial criteria to select a student's house. How could an 11 year old possibly know his true self or his true nature? The Sorting Hat would have to be quite pathetic to let students choose their own house. I believe the Sorting Hat looks very deep into a student, looks down to their core essences and makes a selection based on things so deep that the student most likely doesn't even know of that aspect of himself. Like Neville; he would never have considered himself as brave, yet we have seen him do some very brave things, and I will note that in the Department of Mysteries, Neville was the last man standing with Harry, and he charged forward into the thick of things and did his best even while he knew he was significantly disadvantaged. Neville could have never seen that in himself at his Sorting, but it is clear that potential was there. However, I suspect that the Sorting Hat does learn things from students by engaging them in a dialog. I don't think the Sorting Hat intended to put Harry in Slytherin, but once Harry brought the subject up, the Sorting Hat tested him, it probe his reaction, listened to his arguements. In a sense, the Hat kept pressing the idea of Slytherin to force a reaction from Harry, and that reaction did tell the Hat something about Harry's nature. In Hermione's case, there may have been a similar dialog in which Hermione favored Gryffindor, in the Hat's probing of Hermione's deeper essence it saw she had tremendous intellect, and that she was hard working and loyal, and she does have her share of cunning and ambition. In her case, I suspect the Hat tempted her with Ravenclaw, again, as with Harry, it did so to test her reaction and response. That dialog does tell the Hat something about Hermione, it does give the Hat insight. But in the end, it put Hermione in Gryffindor, not because she asked for it, but because that Hat saw that in bravery and courage is where he true nature lay. In the end, I really just can't see the Sorting Hat as being so superficial and shallow as to let a students wishes or desires be the critical factor in the final decision. No kid could really see or understand himself as well or as deeply as the Sorting Hat can, and I think ultimately, it makes its decision based on those deeper core character aspects. One final note, just because you have a particular characteristic does't mean that characteristic will be realized. Seamus, for example, deep down may be very brave and courageous, but it's possible that life will never give him the opportunity to realize that bravery. While Harry and Ron are out chasing monsters and demons, Seamus is tucked away warm and cozy in his bed. He doesn't get the chances to assert his brave character the way Ron and Harry do. So, regardless of your core essence of House character, life may unfold in a way that prevents you from ever realizing or utilizing that potential. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From lebowjessica at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 04:00:07 2005 From: lebowjessica at yahoo.com (lebowjessica) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:00:07 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction contest. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132514 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? DUMBELDORE 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Seamus Finnigan 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That she was related to Slytherin. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Cardorac Dearborn missing member of the OOTP. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy Weasley. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1 Harry will use the Mirror of Erised to try to see Sirius. 2. Percy Weasley is under a Imperitus Curse. 3. Harry will see his parents graves for the first time. 4. Harry will no longer have the protection of Privet Drive, and leave there forever. 5. It will be discovered that Ginny is still working for Voldemort. From nae92168 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 05:47:33 2005 From: nae92168 at yahoo.com (nae92168) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:47:33 -0000 Subject: HBP contest-Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132515 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryfindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was a seer & knew what would happen at Godric's Hollow 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Kingsley Shacklebolt 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Harry's Parent's Penseive (It holds Lilly's knowledge of what happened at Godric's Hollow---Dumbledore retrieved the memories from dead Lilly soon after her death) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Harry will be elected Quiddich Captain, but will decline it. 2. Trelawney makes another prediction. 3. Hogwarts will be attacked. 4. Percy is a spy for the Order. 5. Petunia has magical powers, which she's been aware of & hiding from her family for a LONG time. From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 12 07:47:56 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:47:56 -0000 Subject: HBP leaked... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dorbandb" wrote: > Yahoo is reporting that HBP was briefly for sale in Vancouver... > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050711/wl_canada_nm/canada_media_potter_ca nada_col > > > hope that link worked. Ah well, you'll hear soon enough. > > As much as I'd like to say that I'd *never* read *anything* before it > was *officially* released by Herself, I'm tickled to imagine that > *someone* is reading IT at this very moment... > > ....without a shred of remorse ;-) > > Brian > (not best known for his patience, but in this case, I can wait.) We were just saying in our house, that we would have definitely read the book, but of course not told the plot to everyone..... However, not being angels, we would have sent out a few hints... I can't help hoping that we might have a couple of more hints before Saturday..... First we have to get our hands on the book, and then we have to READ it.... Susan From josturgess at eircom.net Tue Jul 12 09:11:58 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:11:58 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Kearns" wrote: > I thought perhaps the practical examinations might be separate OWLs, > but this would create so many OWLs (something like 16 for Harry, > though I haven't counted precisely) that 12 would be fairly > attainable, and indeed hardly a reason for Percy or Crouch Sr. to > gloat. > > Any insights? Possibly way more information than you want but hope this helps! I'm of an age with JKR and went through the same state English school system so I'm guessing her Hogwart's model is based on her/my schooling in the 1970/80's. In the fourth and fifth years of secondary education (about 13 -15 yrs old) academically able students usually studied 9 subjects at the end of which they sat their first public exams known as `O' (for ordinary) levels. The system was organised so that each student could opt for a different 9 subjects out of a total of around 20, although not all schools offered the same extent or range, better schools would provide tuition in Latin for instance. Each school day was broken into `periods' around which the school timetable was arranged. Two periods back to back on the same subject were known as double `X' eg double maths, double chemistry etc. The exams consisted of two papers per subject. So for maths, for example, one paper would be on pure maths e.g. arithmetic and one on applied e.g. trigonometry. The two English papers were Language e.g. precis, comprehension and grammar, and Literature e.g. short essays on set books/poems. Both papers had to be passed to gain the `O' level pass itself. A good student was expected to pass a minimum of 7 subjects and 5 was considered essential because it was the minimum for later university acceptance. Talented students could study more subjects but this involved extra tuition around the school timetable and could be difficult to organise. Most frequently it would be in a `core' group, all the sciences or all the languages were common, where learning could be more easily generalised. Students gifted in certain subjects could sit the exams a year early, most likely in maths, sciences and languages. I never heard of someone attempting this in any other subject area. Gifted maths students could then go on to study for an `S' (for special I think) level exam, more sophisticated than an `O' level but not equal to the next big exam the `A' (for advanced) level sat at around 17. In my year of around 350 students only two or three would be likely to take more than 9 subjects and generally that would be 10 or 11 at most. After passing `O' levels students would then usually opt for 3 `A' levels, although again more could be taken as with `O' levels. JKR has clearly diverged from this model in two ways. Firstly some students gain 12 OWLs, secondly 5 NEWTs and not 3 is the norm. In private schools in England it was far more common for students to study more than 9 subjects. These institutions had better resources and more flexibility to meet individual children's needs, plus if they were boarding schools, more time. Although the minimum requirement for university acceptance was 5 `O' level passes, more was always considered better and likely to improve your chances of getting into the really good universities. The number of subjects you studied was far less limited by the timetable the school could offer, private one to one tuition, extra classes, additional teaching hours for marking etc were made available as necessary. I don't believe time turners were accessible but with the English aristocracy you never know! Sitting exams early in these institutions was far more common. I knew some private school kids, and for the really talented, 12 was the *expected* number of `O' level passes. At Hogwarts JKR has, it would appear, decided to model her school on the `best' rather than the usual. For NEWTS JKR appears to have shifted to the Scottish educational model. Here I have to claim very limited knowledge but I can tell you what I think is right and you'll have to hope a good Scot corrects any errors! In Scotland, after 'O' levels, children studied for a School Certificate the `Higher' I believe. This was far more like the US high school certificate. The Higher consisted of a core of 5 subjects of which you had to pass all five to get the certificate. I suspect JKR has chosen the Scottish approach because it allows Harry to continue more subject classes, and thus expand his (our) exposure to magic in his last two years at school. And of course, Hogwarts is in Scotland! Regards Jo From keltobin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 10:32:30 2005 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:32:30 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132518 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think Lupin. ...also Mad-eye Moody and most of the OOtP. Moody showing Harry the picture of the old OOTP could be a foreshadowing of the events to transpire in the final books. I don't think Dumbledore will die until the very end of this book or into the next book. I do think he will die at some point(before the final showdown) since it fits the genre. The "master" dies so the "pupil" can come to his own as an individual and face his nemesis alone. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I am leaning towards Goderic Grifindor, I think he will be seen as a ghost or other non-living form. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) One of the things that has always puzzled me is why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside, rather than just blow her away with no questions asked. This never made sense, as Voldemort doesn't seem the type to go into a house and kill two people and leave one to live. This leaves us with Voldemort giving Lily the *option* to give up her life for her son as a decision, which leads to his failure and the fullfilment of the prophecy. I just don't see it, unless there is some reason Voldemort wanted Lily alive. (No, I don't subscribe to the *urgh* Voldemort loved Lily camp.) So, my guess is that her secret is the reason why Voldemmort gave her the option to live. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Remus Lupin.. again.. to shatter the old formula of a new Dada teacher every year (but he will, true to formula, die) I'm tempted to say that Dumbledore will not want to bring in someone new, since it would be risky at such a dangerous time. At the same time, DD will want to step up the DADA classes to a fever pitch since the students really nead to know what they are doing now. I think DD will sanction and encourage the DA to keep things going as well. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley. It would be too difficult for Harry to romance someone who hasn't shared at least some of his experiences to date. Since I don't think it will be Hermione or Luna, Ginny is my best prediction. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones but it will be offered to and declined by Dumbledore again. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The same old pensive we've known and loved. I think we will learn more of it's history. I don't think it is an ordinary or common item at all and perhaps passed down to Hogwart's Headmasters as a means of recording the history of the school. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, although I don't think he will necessarily make the prerequisites that Snape mentioned. I think Minerva and, possibly, Dumbledore will "oversee" things so Harry can make the requirements to be an Auror. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, Neville does much better when Snape is not around and I suspect he passed this OWL 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I think he missed Astronomy and History (don't see how he could pass this with the events in the last book as they were), possibly potions .... how many would that make? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Aunt Petunia wanted to be a witch. Perhaps even tried to pretend she was one. This is why she hates the wizarding world so much (jealousy spawns great hatred after all). This could be revealed in 6 or 7. 2. Hagrid will get back with Madame Maxime. 3. Grimmauld will be inherited by Harry, who will continue to allow the Order to headquarter there. He will go to live there with Lupin as his guardian. 4. The Potter family made money in the manufacture or sale of Quiddich equipment (most likely snitches). James was independently wealthy because of this. 5. Neville's mother will regain some of her memories. Extra: There is something not right about Uncle Algie. I still wonder if he was the old man in line at the hospital. I think we will learn more about it. Maybe when Neville's mother comes to. I think it is possible that Peter will kill Lupin. I think the hand being silver foreshadows this. Sorry this rambles on so much. I haven't slept ;) Kelly *still laughing at the idea of the centaurs giving pony rides* From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 11:06:54 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:06:54 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132519 John Kearns: > > Maybe it's the math teacher in me, but I still can't work this so it > makes sense with 12 being the maximum. > Indeed there are 12 classes, but how could Percy and Barty Crouch, > Jr. have each earned 12 OWLs? Hermione only managed to take all 12 > for one year, thanks to the time turner. Now she's in 10, and Harry > 9. It can't be THAT routine to hand out time turners to top > students. Amiable Dorsai: Assuming they will let you take the test even if you haven't been taking a formal class, Hermione will probably get her OWL in Muggle Studies. She may even squeak out a divination OWL, assuming that one can get an "A" just by knowing the theory. She's an amazing autodidact, after all. Percy's study habits were at least as compulsive as Hermione's, maybe more so, and so far as we know, he didn't spend much time being petrified, writing lesson plans for CoMC teachers, fighting evil headmistresses, or saving the world. (Extracurricular activities like that, while they look good on a college application, do cut into your study time.) So Percy and Crouch may have gotten a few extra OWLs by independent study. Amiable Dorsai From julierice8 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 11:30:42 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712113042.97349.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132520 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin will be killed by Peter's silver hand. I believe Dumbledore will die in the next book. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) Seamus Finnigan. JKR said that she wouldn't introduce Dean Thomas' backstory even though he's a half blood, so I'll say Semus. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be > eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big secret with Lily, it's Petunia we'll find out more about. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore will teach DADA. Maybe not to the school, but he needs to teach Harry this year before Dumbledore dies next year. That way Snape can teach it next year. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic > relationship? Harry won't have a romantic relationship with anybody yet. HE will start laying the groundwork for dating Ginny in this book and date her next book. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I swear I should answer every who question with Dumbledore. I'm bound to get one right. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP > cover? Old Penseive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, shock of shocks. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Not HIstory of Magic. Not divination. He'll get the others. > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs > will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," > will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1.Ron and Hermione will start a relationship. > 2.Bill and Fleur will get married. Have a child by the end of book 6 (those Weasley genes, you know.) and Fleur will die in childbirth. > 3.Ron will not be Quidditch captain at the beginning of the book, but will be Quidditch captain at the end due to his strategy acumen. > 4. Ron continues where he left off at the end of OOTP with more confidence and his magic improves. THe brains will have a part to play. > 5.Hermione is really Harry's sister, adopted out when she was young due to the danger. She's known this ever since first year when she started trying to get Harry's attention. (Not my theory, but I liked it and thought I'd throw it in. Can't find where I read it, but thought it was pretty good.) Extras: Dudley does magic. Death eaters will not be in Azkaban for very long. Julie Ohio __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 12 11:59:51 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:59:51 -0000 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132521 > Mira: "The idea about a spy in the Order is also good and likely to > come true. The most surprising and thus the less obvious, for me, > would be that Dumbledore himself is a spy ('He is no more DE than I > am', 'If we cannot trust Dumbledore we cannot trust anybody' etc), and that he does the right thing only because it is to his advantage. But I really don't believe this is true. It will all be so pointless if it is." Jim Ferer: > It would also be the biggest betrayal of her readers by an author > ever. It would be unforgivable. What would JKR be telling her readers if she made Dumbledore evil, a spy? 1) Nobody is any damn good; 2) Get others before they get you; every man for himself, and 3) Good is not real. Only evil is real. I don't think for a minute that's what JKR's doing. Pippin: Not for a moment do I think Dumbledore is evil. But I do think there is a spy (Order members are already being picked off one by one) and the spy is someone Harry thinks is good. The challenge for Harry will be to go on believing in goodness once this person is revealed. Idols often turn out to have feet of clay; it doesn't mean the things the idols were supposed to stand for don't exist. Pippin From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 12:01:00 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:01:00 -0000 Subject: The Lunchtime Limerick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132522 As it is lunchtime, I was browsing the BBC website and found this little distraction: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4671715.stm All you have to do is compose a limerick with the first line: 'The Potter fans can't wait for Friday' and submit it to the BBC who publish a couple of 'winners' every day. I thought I'd post it here as we have so many fantastically creative peeps who can compose ingeniously witty verses on the subject of Harry Potter. And it seemed like fun! Or, at least, something to do to pass the time... And I'm not sure why the 'first line' mentions Friday, not Saturday - one can only assume they mean Friday night! JLV xx From shalimar07 at aol.com Tue Jul 12 11:29:56 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:29:56 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: Amazon's Book Cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132523 S P O I L E R S P A C E Does anyone think that Harry is wearing the ring that Sirius retrieved from Kreacher and tossed in the discard bag? The picture can be viewed on Mugglenet. Shalimar From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 11:41:38 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:41:38 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20050711221724.4174.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132524 Christine Whittaker wrote: >> I have read the title as the "champion (prince) of half-bloods", rather than "a prince who is half-blood". I think the HBP and GG are one and the same. >>snip<< I think that's a fair point, and it is less likely to be a literal prince because there hasn't been any mention of a wizard royal family before. But having said that, I still dont understand what would lead people to beleive that Godric Gryffindor would be a 'champion of half bloods'? If anyone, surely that title should go to Hufflepuff, who when mentioned in the sorting hats song in book 5 swore to 'Teach the lot and treat them all the same' I may be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any clues whatsoever to suggest that Gryffindor did anything for half bloods. philippajrice From mrslightningbolt at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 12 11:47:00 2005 From: mrslightningbolt at yahoo.com.au (mrslightningbolt) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:47:00 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132525 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore ? towards the end of the book 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? She worked in the Department of Mysteries studying the room full of love, that is how she knew her sacrifice for Harry would save his life. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Lupin 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve but I think it might belong to the Potters 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Five Predictions: ? Fawkes is really Godric Gryffindor ? Ron will be made the Gryffindor Quidditch captain ? Sirius will return from the other side of the veil (I refuse to believe he is dead) ? The Phoenix in the name the Order of the Phoenix refers to Harry's survival as a baby when the house burned down and is also a clue to what will happen to him at the end of book 7. ? Dobby used to be Lily's house elf (green eyes) which is why he has shown remarkable loyalty to Harry while working for the Malfoys and in warning him about Umbridge. mrslightningbolt From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 12 13:46:01 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:46:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D3C999.1080008@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132526 Christine Whittaker wrote: >>>I have read the title as the "champion (prince) of half-bloods", rather than "a prince who is half-blood". >>> >>> >>>philippajrice wrote: >>> >>>I think that's a fair point, and it is less likely to be a literal >>>prince because there hasn't been any mention of a wizard royal family >>>before. >>> heather now: As has been mentioned, the translations of the title show quite clearly that it does mean "a prince who is half-blood". I've been thinking about this too, and I really doubt that JKR would have chosen this wording if she had meant the other. The term 'prince' in that context is very colloquial and not very common. Yes it is used for that, but it would have been a very odd choice of words. I think it is WAY too much of a stretch for people to be speculating that. She could have said "half-blood champion" if that was the meaning she wanted, for instance. That would still have the ambiguity of is-it-a-champion-who-is-a-halfblood, but would not be too colloquial and uncommon a usage. Anyway, apparently the french title is /Harry Potter et le Prince de Sang-Ml. /If it was supposed to mean 'champion of halfbloods' it would have said "Prince DES Sang-MeleS", in plural. Instead it says "The prince of half blood", clearly meaning himself. heather the buzzard From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 12 13:58:15 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:58:15 -0000 Subject: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spotsgal" wrote: > I completely agree with you. A lot of people seem to like following > Trelawney's 13-dinner-guests prophecy through the books, and Mrs. > Weasley is the second to rise after Sirius during the dinner scene in > the beginning of OotP. Marianne: I realize I'm being nit-picky on this, but I'm still convinced that in that scene the first to leave the table is Ginny. She is described as kneeling amidst a pile of butterbeer corks on the floor playing with Crookshanks well before Sirius stands up. Now, maybe she simply slid out of her chair to get to the floor, and didn't technically stand up, but she was definitely the one who left her seat first. So, Sirius' death doesn't fit the "Trelawney 13" warning, either. Marianne From jcf at ieee.org Tue Jul 12 13:57:13 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:57:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Relationships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132528 On 7/9/05, Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: > JKR even said (Aug 15 2004 -- Edinburg Book Festival) that she wasn't going > to reveal the final pairings . .that she couldn't. . . and "you will have to > read between the lines on that one". Does anybody else take this to mean that, perhaps, the final 'ships are tied into major plot points? I mean, it wouldn't kill our enjoyment of the story for Jo to say: "Ron likes Hermy and Ginny likes Harry." Possible reasons she can't say that (or whatever): - Harry dies, effective wrecking his 'ship - Ron dies; Harry comforts a distraught Hermione for the next hundred years - Hermione di--no, I ain't goin' there. Is Strictly Forbidden to kill the girl. - Any other ideas? -John From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 14:02:39 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" > I'm of an age with JKR and went through the same state English > school system so I'm guessing her Hogwart's model is based on her/my > schooling in the 1970/80's. I posted more or less the same message - we appear to be a similar age! - having taken the 'O' and 'A' levels and recognising them instantly in the OWLs and NEWTs. It hasn't stopped the speculation though! > The two English papers were Language e.g. precis, comprehension and > grammar, and Literature e.g. short essays on set books/poems. Both > papers had to be passed to gain the `O' level pass itself. I would beg to disagree here though. At 'O' Level, English Language and English Literature are two entirely separate subjects and two entirely different sets of exams, both comprising of two papers. I can't really remember the difference between the two Language papers, but the first literature paper was on the Shakespeare text (Julius Caeser in my case), the poetry (an anthology of love poetry - Shelley, Keates etc) and a passage of text from a novel that was not included in the set texts, to test your comprehension abilities. The other paper was on the other 3 set texts (Chaucer's The Pardoner's Tale, Great Expectations and Emma). There is only 1 English subject at 'A' level and that is literature. We did 2 Shakespeare King Lear and Much Ado, Chaucer's The Knight's Tale, Persuasion, Silas Marner, Dr Faustus, Metaphysical Poetry (Donne, Herbert and Marvel), Emma, and I'm sure there was something else but I can't remember what. Karen From josturgess at eircom.net Tue Jul 12 14:50:01 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:50:01 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" > > I'm of an age with JKR and went through the same state English > > school system so I'm guessing her Hogwart's model is based on her/my > > schooling in the 1970/80's. > > I posted more or less the same message - we appear to be a similar > age! - Oh, lucky us! > > > The two English papers were Language e.g. precis, comprehension and > > grammar, and Literature e.g. short essays on set books/poems. Both > > papers had to be passed to gain the `O' level pass itself. > > I would beg to disagree here though. At 'O' Level, English Language > and English Literature are two entirely separate subjects and two > entirely different sets of exams, both comprising of two papers. Yes you're right, how could I have forgotten? But then I've forgotten so much.....How long were the lessons, how many lessons were there in a day/week, what time did we start, what were the compulsory extras, PE I seem to recall but were there others, did we have an afternoon break, how long was lunch....??? > There is only 1 English subject at 'A' level and that is literature. Actually I managed to sit a combined Lang/Lit 'A' level - it was the London Examining Board I think and not very common. Regardless of all this nostalgia I realised after posting that while I could explain why most students sit nine subjects and how Percy and Barty managed 12, I couldn't explain how come Hermione *isn't* doing 12 even without the timeturner (unless she isn't as clever as she thinks), and why did McGonnagall giver her the TT in the first place or does this mean both Percy and Barty had one? Regards Jo From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 14:54:18 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:54:18 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor- Half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <42D3C999.1080008@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132531 Much of the problem seems to extend from the fact that we don't really have *anything* to suggest the HBP is anyone in particular at all. All we know is that they are referred to as `the Half-Blood Prince' and they are not Harry or Voldemort. If `the Half-Blood Prince' is a definite description (as opposed to a title), we must remember that Harry is considered to be a half-blood by some because he has one muggle-born parent so there may be others who also fall into this category despite apparently having two wizard parents. There are many wizards who we know are half-bloods (Seamus) and many who we know aren't (Draco Malfoy) and many more we have no idea about ? IIRC (which I rarely do!) Snape and Dumbledore are examples. If `the Half-Blood Prince' is a title then it might, at least at some time, have /had/ a descriptive element, but it may have been passed on. Nothing in the literature rules this out as there is very little about this sort of thing in the literature! I am using as an example titles like `the Earl of Wessex' ? Wessex was a kingdom of England that no longer exists (although the land still does!) but still we in Britain have a Prince with this title. The `Wessex' part actually is fairly irrelevant. I'm not saying that I think `the Half-Blood Prince' is similar to this, just that it's not impossible. Hence I really don't know what to think here ? but I think Godric Gryffindor has just as good a chance of being the Half-Blood Prince as Hagrid, Nearly Headless Nick or Dumbledore. But that is just my opinion ;-) JLV xx From kathrin.p at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:53:48 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:53:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Gabrielle (was JKR and the obvious) In-Reply-To: <20050712013558.36251.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050712013558.36251.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4e2ac80050712075348ec4501@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132532 Del: Er... Wasn't Gabrielle something like *eight*, in GoF?? Mira: You're probably right. I seemed to remember it was something around ten or eleven, which would make her a suitable age now. If she was 8, then no way she can come back as a romantic interest, unless Harry appreciated her age wrong or a Veela ages at different speed than normal people. She would have been a good choice, not a new character but somebody we don't know very well just yet. Kathrin: I assume that discussion started because I voted for her having a relationship with Harry in HBP? Well, in GoF, Chapter 26 - The Second Task (Bloomsbury paperback, p. 543) it says: Ron was tied between Hermione and Cho Chang. There was also a girl who looked no older than eight, whose clouds of silvery hair made Harry feel sure that she was Fleur Delacour's sister. I am not aware of a passage in the canon that states Gabrielle's age more exactly than in this assumption. eSince I know that I look like 16 under water (several people told me so without knowing each other) despite the fact that all my passports will tell you I was born in 1984 (which leaves me at 21 years so far), I simply thought that this could be the same for Gabrielle. Then she might possibly be 14 by now and the age difference is not so big anymore. This means it is well possible they become a couple sometime soon (in HBP, I hope :) ). Also, wouldn't it be nice if Harry and they Weasley family would be officially related (I'm simply assuming that Bill getting married to Fleur is a fact, as I really hope this will happen in HBP!)? Well, it has yet to be proven to me that Harry and the Weasley family are not yet related, but with Gabrielle and Harry a couple the proof wouldn't be necessary any longer... Maybe I should explain you in a short sentence what I mentioned above: I still believe (and always will) that Molly was a distant relative to James Potter :) Kathrin (who, by the way, is a new member, a 21 years old student in Frankfurt/Main, Germany, and owns all Harry Potter 1-5 in German and English and 1 & 2 in French - you see, I'm an addict) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 12 16:06:52 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:06:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132533 You know, I think we've actually gone about a WEEK without a Snape thread here. Isn't that amazing? Perhaps I should leave well enough alone, and I really don't want to start anymore *bickering* , but this is something I've been thinking about for awhile.... Snape has his defenders and his apologists and many, many who fall in between. He has, however, taken a lot of grief over his behavior in OoP. On my recently completed re-read of canon [Show of hands! How many AREN'T re-reading?? One... two... just as I thought, two out of 17,000], it just struck me that what I'd consider Snape's WORST moment of the book wasn't what I'd expected going in. It wasn't Occlumency (this last re-read had me seeing Severus in a little more positive light there). It wasn't a classroom interaction with Harry or Neville. It wasn't even the "Whoops!" moment with Harry's potion, since I can't PROVE that Snape did that, nor that he did it intentionally (though I believe both to be true). No, his worst moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. Let's look at the following scene: 'I am here on Dumbledore's orders', said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish, 'but by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel... involved.' 'What's that supposed to mean?' said Sirius, letting his chair fall back on to all four legs with a loud bang. 'Merely that I am sure you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful', Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, 'for the Order.' 'I am in rather a hurry, Black. Unlike you, I do not have unlimited leisure time.' 'I'll get to the point, then', said Sirius, standing up. He was rather taller than Snape who, Harry noticed, balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand. 'If I hear you're using these Occlumency lessons to give Harry a hard time, you'll have me to answer to.' 'How touching', Snape sneered. 'But surely you have noticed that Potter is very like his father?' 'Yes, I have', said Sirius proudly. 'Well then, you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him', Snape said sleekly. Sirius pushed his chair roughly aside and strode around the table towards Snape, pulling out his wand as he went. Snape whipped out his own. They were squaring up to each other, Sirius looking livid, Snape calculating, his eyes darting from Sirius's wand-tip to his face. 'Sirius!' said Harry loudly, but Sirius appeared not to hear him. 'I've warned you, Snivellus', said Sirius, his face barely a foot from Snape's, 'I don't care if Dumbledore thinks you've reformed, I know better-' 'Oh, but why don't you tell him so?' whispered Snape. 'Or are you afraid he might not take very seriously the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother's house for six months?' 'Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?' 'Speaking of dogs', said Snape softly, 'did you know that Lucius Malfoy recognised you last time you risked a little jaunt outside? Clever idea, Black, getting yourself seen on a safe station platform... gave you a cast-iron excuse not to leave your hidey-hole in future, didn't it?' Sirius raised his wand. 'NO!' Harry yelled, vaulting over the table and trying to get in between them. 'Sirius, don't!' 'Are you calling me a coward?' roared Sirius, trying to push Harry out of the way, but Harry would not budge. 'Why, yes, I suppose I am', said Snape. [Excerpts from OoP, chapter 24] Okay. So just what does Snape WANT from Sirius? He's using every opportunity to dig at Sirius in this scene, to rub in to him the fact that he's not DOING anything, not being USEFUL, not even leaving the house, calling him a coward. Snape insults Sirius for staying IN, yet he also castigates him for the time he went out, even though Sirius did so in animagus form. (Is there a reason Sirius should have known Lucius would know about Padfoot?) It seems to me there was *nothing* in this scene except a nastily cruel series of digs at Sirius, designed to point out his "worthlessness." Now, I'm NOT saying Snape is to blame for Sirius' death ? I'm not going that far ? but I will say that I understand Harry's anger at Snape. He recalled this interaction, and he knew Snape was baiting Sirius. It was pretty reprehensible behavior, imo. So that's my vote for Snape's worst OoP scene. Anybody want to nominate another or comment upon this one? And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations for Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? I think I might vote for the first Occlumency lesson, where he really did try to rein in his general loathing and answer some of Harry's questions. He wasn't perfect, but it was pretty "big" for Snape. Of course, I'd entertain other nominations before deciding for sure. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From kathrin.p at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:48:24 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:48:24 +0200 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e2ac80050712084835aab92d@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132534 John: - Harry dies, effective wrecking his 'ship ME (Kathrin): But Harry Potter is still considered a children's literature, right? So that would mean it would be utterly cruel of JK Rowling to kill Harry to end the storyline. In children's literature you may be able to kill friends of the hero, but not the hero. What message would this be for the little ones? So that would discard the first possibility... John: - Ron dies; Harry comforts a distraught Hermione for the next hundred years ME (Kathrin): Yes, but no, rather not... As much as I like Hermione and Harry, I just can't see them as a couple. This would end up in a divorce (can I handle that one if it really happens ;-) ). John: - Any other ideas? ME (Kathrin): But of course! - Harry will have an affair with Ginny, which doesn't last (they just don't get along too well). Then he will have a few short-term relationships until he finally gets married to Gabrielle Delacour.. - Hermione might get something going with Oliver Woods, but she will end up marrying Draco Malfoy, who ended up a quite nice guy once his father was gone... - Ron will discover a certain interest in slightly older women, so he has an affair with Katie Bell. What do you think? Kathrin From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 16:04:09 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:04:09 -0000 Subject: Sorting hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132535 I read somewhere that more information about the sorting hat would feature in the next book. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Obviously there's more to the hat than just putting people into different houses. He's given out advise in the songs, and there was the whole sword thing in COS, and seemingly it can read peoples minds when they're wearing it. Maybe the hat belonged to someone who used to wear it all the time and all they're thoughts got stored in it? Or maybe when you wear the hat, it can see into your future. That would explain why the hat sorts people into houses they don't seem to suit at the time (eg neville). Maybe the hat can see people's family history somehow, and that's why he gave the sword to Harry (who's going to turn out to be a decendant of Godric Gryffinddor). That could be the way the hat sorts people (the Weaslys are always in Gryffindor, and Neville could have been put in Gryffindor based on his parents being brave). Was the hat originally designed to be a sorting hat, or was it made for something else first? I'm really looking forward to finding out more about the sorting hat. I wondered if anyone else had any ideas. "philippajrice" From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 12 17:16:48 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:16:48 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132536 aussie: HBP is set in 1997 - 1998, when Win98 was starting, so of course, Dudley will say - OK, where is the computer I wanted for my birthday? What does it mean when the screen goes blue? Hey, Daddy, look! A stranger sent me an e-mail that i can earn thousands of pounds a day. -and all I have to do is send $200. Draco will say - Ha. Although Gringotts has frozen our family accounts, but I can still get lots of cash from Muggles. Another just sent me $200. Hey, where did all that money disappear to? Fred and George - Hacking is magic. Look what i got from Malfoy's PC. Should we add these viruses to the Joke store catalogue? Ron - No copmuter for me. After finding out Scabbers was Pettigrew, anything with a mouse is not for me. Hermione - Extra classes this year? Cobolt, C Basic, and DOS languages. Arthur - I swear someone has bewitched this thing. It keeps crashing on me. Bagman - Dang. I this computer thingy from Mundungus and it doesn't work ... by the way, what am I ment to do with this plug thingy? Peeves - Ohh, the possibilities for me over the internet ... Krum - Shh! I am breaking record for Pacman. Umbridge - Waah. Why does this computer hate me? CRUCIO! having fun? aussie From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 16:37:42 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:37:42 -0000 Subject: Philospher's Stone Question - and Sorting Hat second guessing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132537 > vmonte: > It doesn't work because Fred and George did not give Ron a real spell. > I think this scene was meant as a joke. JKR told us right away that > Wormtail was a coward. Ron did not have to turn the rat "yellow" > because the rat was already "yellow." > > Vivian And yet, when I said that Pettigrew didn't belong in Gryffindor, but instead in Slytherin, everyone objected that he was brave for cutting off his finger. To me that isn't brave. Ability to endure brief physical pain and sacrifice a finger doesn't qualify when it is done to avoid facing the consequences of your actions by framing someone else and hiding as a rat for 13 years. Facing your fears and accepting the consequences of your actions is actual bravery. I also disagree with those who contend that Percy belonged in Gryffindor because he was brave enough to defy his family. He had two choices: defy his family, or his boss. He didn't do the more "brave" option, he did the one that was best for his career. Ambition, ambition, ambition. He should have been a Slytherin. - davenclaw From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 16:39:45 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:39:45 -0000 Subject: Relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132538 Meliss9900 at a...wrote: > > JKR even said (Aug 15 2004 -- Edinburg Book Festival) that she wasn't going > > to reveal the final pairings . .that she couldn't. . . and "you will have to > > read between the lines on that one". > I agree with Meliss9900's great analysis/summary of JKR's comments on ships. I think two are three areas in which you can see this type of progression in her comments: 1. ships - early comments fairly clearly indicate at least the R/H ship, later as (to her surprise) she sees that this is not perceived as obvious by the readers she becomes more cagey about it... 2. survival of Harry -- early comments pretty clear that he survives (some comments even that she would not "say never" to a post-Hogwarts book about him, later she start to create suspence and refuses to confirm that he will survive. Rolshan From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 17:23:43 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712172344.64573.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132539 --- cubfanbudwoman wrote: > No, his worst moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. > [snip] > Okay. So just what does Snape WANT from Sirius?...It seems to me > there was *nothing* in this scene except a nastily cruel series of > digs at Sirius, designed to point out his "worthlessness." You say that like it's a bad thing. What Snape wants - and is getting - in this scene is simply...payback. He's taunting Sirius and getting him riled up because he knows he can turn the tables now and there's jack-all Sirius can do about it. He's enjoying having the control. I suppose I should feel outraged about it but after the pensieve scene I figure that Sirius had it coming. (And I'm not open to changing my mind on this, just to cut short the deluge of email I'm going to get over it). > Now, I'm NOT saying Snape is to blame for Sirius' death I'm not > going that far but I will say that I understand Harry's anger at > Snape. He recalled this interaction, and he knew Snape was baiting > Sirius. It was pretty reprehensible behavior, imo. Well, it really wasn't Harry's business, was it? This was the latest outburst in an old feud between two peers. Harry doesn't know enough about the background between them to judge accurately - as we see a few chapters later. > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations > for Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? That's easy. Umbridge's office, she's just asked him for veritaserum and he turns her down, and she says she wants to make Harry talk. And he gives her a chatty just-between-us-evil-types commentary on the pluses and minuses of using poison to get someone to talk. Classic Snape. Best moment in the series. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 17:41:30 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:41:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132540 Susan: > You know, I think we've actually gone about a WEEK without a Snape > thread here. Isn't that amazing? Alla: LOL! Yes, it is. We usually talk about him almost all over time. :-) SSSusan: On my recently completed re-read of canon [Show of hands! How > many AREN'T re-reading?? One... two... just as I thought, two out of > 17,000], it just struck me that what I'd consider Snape's WORST > moment of the book wasn't what I'd expected going in. No, his worst > moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. It seems to me there > was *nothing* in this scene except a nastily cruel series of digs at > Sirius, designed to point out his "worthlessness." > > Now, I'm NOT saying Snape is to blame for Sirius' death ? I'm not > going that far ? but I will say that I understand Harry's anger at > Snape. He recalled this interaction, and he knew Snape was baiting > Sirius. It was pretty reprehensible behavior, imo. > > So that's my vote for Snape's worst OoP scene. Anybody want to > nominate another or comment upon this one? > > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations for > Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? I think I might vote for the first > Occlumency lesson, where he really did try to rein in his general > loathing and answer some of Harry's questions. He wasn't perfect, > but it was pretty "big" for Snape. Alla: OK, me wants to participate of course :-). Actually, I would not call this moment to be Snape's worst behaviour in OOP. I mean don't get me wrong, I do think that it was unwarranted, cruel, reprehensible, pick the word, BUT Snape and Sirius have a history and despite of my arguing that we may not know the major moments of that history, which can totally switch the picture around, they HAVE that history. It is possible that something SO bad connects those two that Snape in his mind may feel entitled to goad Sirius without any reason at all. Do I like it? Of course not, I hate it. But at least I can understand it, well sort of. No, I still go with Snape having a go at Harry and Neville as his worst moments ( plural). I cannot give any justification to what he does to them none at all. Take your pick for my vote - be it Snape destroying Harry's potion or him throwing Harry out of Occlumency OR better even the fact that Harry was going to Occlumency lesson with the feeling that he was imprisoning himself. I just think that it sums up SO well all damage that Snape did to Harry's psyche during five years of goading him. No, Snape is not Harry's worst fear, but IMO he is afraid of him thanks to Snape and Snape only and I am very anxious to see whether Harry will ever trust Snape enough to work with him. As to Snape's best moment, well, to tell you the truth, I cannot pick Snape best moment in OOP ( not storywise, mind you), I like that we learned more about him, but he does not get any cookies from me for OOP. Oh maybe half a cookie for bringing fake veritaserum for Umbridge. I can choose Snape best moment in the books though - that would be him showing Dark mark to Fudge in GoF. That was brave. Just my opinion, Alla. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 17:43:22 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:43:22 -0000 Subject: Sorting hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132541 > phillippajrice > I read somewhere that more information about the sorting hat would > feature in the next book. JLV: I can't find anything mentioning book 6 specifically - could it be this quote you're referring to? Boston Globe interview (1999): The character you might be most surprised to see evolve is none other than the Sorting Hat. "There is more to the Sorting Hat than what you have read about in the first three books," Rowling says. "Readers will find out what the Sorting Hat becomes as they get into future books." > phillippajrice > Does anyone have any ideas about this? > Obviously there's more to the hat than just putting people into > different houses. JLV: Well, the hat explains most of the stuff you mention itself. Let me find the quotes... > phillippajrice > He's given out advice in the songs, and there was > the whole sword thing in COS, and seemingly it can read peoples > minds when they're wearing it. JLV: It seems it can read minds - from PS: "There's nothing hidden in your head The Sorting Hat can't see" > phillippajrice > Maybe the hat belonged to someone who used to wear it all the time > and all they're thoughts got stored in it? JLV: How it came into being is from GoF: "Yet how to pick the worthy ones When they were dead and gone? 'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead!" > phillippajrice > Or maybe when you wear the hat, it can see into your future. That > would explain why the hat sorts people into houses they don't seem > to suit at the time (eg neville). JLV: I don't believe there is any canon for this... > phillippajrice > Maybe the hat can see people's family history somehow, and that's why > he gave the sword to Harry (who's going to turn out to be a > decendant of Godric Gryffinddor). That could be the way the hat sorts > people (the Weaslys are always in Gryffindor, and Neville could have > been put in Gryffindor based on his parents being brave). JLV: But this suggests that it always puts people from the same family in the same house. What about Sirius Back or Parvarti/Padma Patil? > phillippajrice > Was the hat originally designed to be a sorting hat, or was it made > for something else first? JLV: The hat tells us it was designed to be a sorting hat in the above quotation. Also consider from the World Book Day interview (2004): Arianna: "Can we believe everything the sorting hat says?" JK Rowling replies -> "The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere." > phillippajrice > I'm really looking forward to finding out > more about the sorting hat. I wondered if anyone else had any > ideas. JLV: I definitely think the sorting hat has more to do, based on the first JKR quote and the trends and suggestions it makes itself in the books so far. I hope that having more detailed backgound information helps you with your ideas about what this may be! For comprehensive information on the sorting hat (including its songs in full), consult the lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/sorting_hat.html I personally think the hat will get destroyed at some point - but whether this is a good or bad thing, I don't know... JLV xx From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 16:10:25 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:10:25 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a good teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132542 wrote: > Many people defend Snape's treatment of Harry on the basis that he > cannot treat the boy decently because Voldemort will realise that he > is the double agent. > > Now, this argument never worked for me in the first place. I agree. I just read a scene in GoF, where Snape accuses Harry of stealing gillyweed and boomslang skin (in CoS). It takes place during class, but Snape speaks quietly so only he can here, and he calls him a nasty little boy. Time after time he is thwarted by Harry and knows it, and he hates him. This isn't an act he is putting on for the Slytherin's sake so they tell their Daddy Death Eaters that Snape is the real deal. He really hates Harry. Dumbledore recognizes this at the end of OotP, IIRC. - davenclaw From morgan at sover.net Tue Jul 12 16:41:15 2005 From: morgan at sover.net (j92m14) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:41:15 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 7 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132543 Hello- here's my answers to contest questions 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin will die to save HRH 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) "The Old Lion Guy" - Harry is taken by Dumbledore to Egypt where, as Ron has experienced, there's alot of magic. In Egypt, they meet the HBP/lionesque guy. He is to teach Harry what he needs to know. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't think there is a big "secret" - I think that Lily's strengths and specialness will be revealed to Harry and to us by some of the people who knew her at school and in the Order. Dumbledore will arrange this happening. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix - he is from Romania and knows alot about what Harry needs to learn for his coming show down. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a penseive and prognosticator in which one can see what other wizards are doing/thinking 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine My predictions 1. Dumbledore will pick Harry up from Privet drive, where he has a long talk w/Petunia and Harry. 2. From Privet Drive, DD takes Harry to meet Dobby and a goblin, and from there they go to meet with other elves and goblins and the centaurs. DD wants to make the fountain (magical brethren) in the MOM a reality of allies. 3. After beginning the alliance building, DD, knowing that Harry has alot to learn, spends a part of the summer w/him and the HBP where they prepare Harry for what is coming. 4. When Harry meets up w/Ron and Hermione again, they have spent alot of time together and are pretty well bonded. 5. Harry gathers the DA around him and informs them of the predictions. The DA joins forces with the OP. There is a huge battle at Hogwarts near the end of the book. Morgan. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 12 17:58:28 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:58:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132544 SSSusan wrote: > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations for > Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? I think I might vote for the first > Occlumency lesson, where he really did try to rein in his general > loathing and answer some of Harry's questions. He wasn't perfect, > but it was pretty "big" for Snape. > > Of course, I'd entertain other nominations before deciding for > sure. ;-) > Potioncat: I'd say his best moment would have to be when he returns to his chambers after the Halloween feast accompanied by the silky-haired, sultry voiced witch from America and they....oops. Wrong list. From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 18:06:39 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:06:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: <20050712172344.64573.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132545 > --- Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > > > No, his worst moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. > > [snip] > Magda replied: > You say that like it's a bad thing. > > What Snape wants - and is getting - in this scene is > simply...payback. He's taunting Sirius and getting him riled up > because he knows he can turn the tables now and there's jack-all > Sirius can do about it. He's enjoying having the control. > > I suppose I should feel outraged about it but after the pensieve > scene I figure that Sirius had it coming. (And I'm not open to > changing my mind on this, just to cut short the deluge of email I'm > going to get over it). Tammy: I agree with Magda, Snape's getting his revenge. I'm certain there is more backstory coming regarding Snape and the Marauders, but at the moment, it seems that Snape's got his right to taunt when he can. While it's not Snape at his high point, I do think it's standard Snape. My nomination for worst Snape moment would be when he threw that jar of cockroaches at Harry. However right Snape was in his anger at Harry, Snape completely lost his self-control at that moment (what little self-control he manages around Harry & Co. that is). I think even Snape would agree that was his worst moment. > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: > > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations > > for Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? > Magda replied: > That's easy. Umbridge's office, she's just asked him for veritaserum > and he turns her down, and she says she wants to make Harry talk. > And he gives her a chatty just-between-us-evil-types commentary on > the pluses and minuses of using poison to get someone to talk. > > Classic Snape. Best moment in the series. Tammy: A firm "me too!" to that one! It's a classic example of Snape being helpful and unhelpful at the same time. He's unhelpful to Umbridge by not providing the Veritaserum (which we all know he's got), but still seems helpful with the hilarious bit about poisons. I completely believe him when he says "Unless you wish to poison Potter - and I assure you I would have the greatest sympathy for you if you did - I cannot help you. The only trouble is that most venoms act too fast to give the victim much time for truth-telling...." (ch.32, pg745 US paperback) I can fully hear Snape saying that, with honest regret that he couldn't poison Potter. But better than that, is the last comment just as he's leaving the office, on the next page - "And Crabbe, loosen you hold a little, if Longbottom suffocates it will mean a lot of tedious paperwork, and I am afraid I shall have to mention it on your reference if you ever apply for a job." It's such a classic Snape moment that it deserves a medal of honor. I'd even nominate it as best Snape moment of the series. -Tammy, who hopes for many more classic Snape moments in 3 days, 9 hours, and 55 minutes. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 18:11:15 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:11:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: <20050712172344.64573.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132546 Magda: > You say that like it's a bad thing. > > What Snape wants - and is getting - in this scene is > simply...payback. He's taunting Sirius and getting him riled up > because he knows he can turn the tables now and there's jack-all > Sirius can do about it. He's enjoying having the control. > > I suppose I should feel outraged about it but after the pensieve > scene I figure that Sirius had it coming. Alla: I am just wondering from how many people seeking payback from Snape as former member of Voldie gang Dumbledore shielded Snape when he got him a safe haven at Hogwarts. As I said, I realise that these two have a history, but I wish Snape would learn a bit more from Dumbledore about forgiveness and staff. Does not seem so to me. And yes, Sirius can also learn more about forgiveness and staff. Magda: > Well, it really wasn't Harry's business, was it? This was the latest > outburst in an old feud between two peers. Harry doesn't know enough > about the background between them to judge accurately - as we see a > few chapters later. Alla: Harry was protecting someone who he considered to be a family member, so yes, I think it was his business, whether he knows all the facts or not. JMO, Alla. From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 18:32:02 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712183202.22983.qmail@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132547 SSS wrote: > since I can't PROVE that Snape did that, nor that he did it > intentionally (though I believe both to be true). No, his worst > moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. > Let's look at the following scene: Well you deliberately skip the part where Sirius being a total ass first by accusing Snape for giving 'orders' (when Snape said 'sit down' and was here from Dumbledore's orders). It was a vain attempt by Sirius trying desperately to remind everyone he's still THE man by asserting his own importance, while tilting his chair backward on two legs like a pampered little prince who still think he's all that. Oh wow why would poor innocent harmless Sirius get sass by the awful awful bad man!? Snape's *Best* OOP moment: Where he goaded Sirius in his rude and petty glory, and got the upperhand and sass the haughty Sirius. Umbridge's office and specifically his *ironic* bow, gotta love him. His breaking of Harry's potion with a 'oops', just as you think he was silenced and sulk by embarassment, he still got it. See Snape's 'worst' is what's 'best' for me, because that's what his character is about. These are ficitional characters, they're at their 'best' by serving their function. Unlike some of you I just can't be seperate these characters from the context of a story and treat them as real people and constantly made reading a fictional book all about the measuring moral meter, all about bashing, hating blaming, accusing and judging who lies who's rude who's abusive who's bad (and failed to prove why the other 'good' way would make a better read and writing). I think Sirius has his best moment in OOTP was where he insolently taunted Bellatrix and was shocked at being out duel and fell through (emphasized with descriptions of his wasted onced-handsome face), basically sums up the essence of this character, powerful and heartbreaking. D. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 12 18:34:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:34:42 -0000 Subject: baiting the bear Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132548 > Magda: >> > What Snape wants - and is getting - in this scene is > > simply...payback. He's taunting Sirius and getting him riled up > > because he knows he can turn the tables now and there's jack-all > > Sirius can do about it. He's enjoying having the control. Potioncat: Neither one of them come out very well in that scene, do they? I wanted to knock their heads together. Although this is the first time we readers see Black and Snape interacting, they must have had conversations before. After all, Snape was reporting regularly over the summer and it's Christmas time now. Granted, it's probably the first time they've been forced to be alone. Remember the Marauders' Map scene between Snape and Lupin? That conversation reads very differently now than it did when we only had PoA. I get the sense that there something going on at Grimmauld Place that we don't quite understand...yet. Alla: > > I am just wondering from how many people seeking payback from Snape > as former member of Voldie gang Dumbledore shielded Snape when he got > him a safe haven at Hogwarts. Potioncat: Not many. But I'm basing that on suspect intelligence. Black had no idea that Snape had been a Death Eater. So it doesn't seem to be anything he was generally suspected of. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 18:46:37 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:46:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132549 I was thinking about Sirius' death and PoA, and it occurred to me that Sirius MUST continue to play some key role in the story even after his death - not to say Harry will be able to communicate with him, but that his presence in the story will have great influence on Harry or events to come. The reason I say this is that otherwise, PoA was basically a waste. If Sirius has no further significant influence on the story, then why did the story need Sirius in the first place? To create more tragedy for Harry? Not necessary. To provide advice to Harry in GoF and OotP? Wasn't all that crucial. Just to have a sub-story to move the greater Harry/Voldemort story line along? I suppose. After all, the Philosopher's Stone hasn't meant much since the first book, yet that moved that plot forward. Was Sirius just one big McGuffin? Or maybe he served to showcase another combination of characteristics - the pure-blood from a Slytherin family who rejected their ways and was on the side of good, but who has some fairly nasty traits of his own, but died fighting death eaters. While I guess that those answers would be acceptable, I still can't see JKR devoting so much of the story just to kill the character off, if there wasn't a significant impact on the rest of the story. Perhaps it has to do with Sirius' estate, as some have said, which I think could be interesting - or perhaps it has a lot to do with those two-way mirrors. - davenclaw From c-katsos at northwestern.edu Tue Jul 12 18:36:28 2005 From: c-katsos at northwestern.edu (Christina Katsos) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:36:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR and the obvious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20050712124718.01b0c3c0@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 132550 > >Marianne: > >I realize I'm being nit-picky on this, but I'm still convinced that >in that scene the first to leave the table is Ginny. She is >described as kneeling amidst a pile of butterbeer corks on the floor >playing with Crookshanks well before Sirius stands up. Now, maybe >she simply slid out of her chair to get to the floor, and didn't >technically stand up, but she was definitely the one who left her >seat first. So, Sirius' death doesn't fit the "Trelawney 13" >warning, either. Christina: I don't think it's being nitpicky; I've thought about it myself. Trelawney's exact words are "Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!" (PoA paperback pg 228). Does she mean the first to rise up above their chair? The first to remove themselves from their chair? It's not really clear. What makes me think that the dinner scene does fit Trelawney's prediction is the fact that Sirius's rising from his chair seems to very heavily emphasized. (BEGIN QUOTE- OP US hardcover, pg 90) "Yes, said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling. "The thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?" Sirius started to rise from his chair. "Molly, you're not the only person at this table who cares about Harry," said Lupin sharply. "Sirius, sit *down*." Mrs. Weasley's lower lip was trembling. Sirius sank slowly back into his chair, his face white. (END QUOTE) The word "rise" is used specifically here, and Sirius getting up from his chair is given its own paragraph. Lupin comments on Sirius being out of his chair, and it's said that he sinks slowly back into it again. I also found it interesting that Sirius "sinks" yet again in his death scene at the end of "Beyond the Veil." Now, it would have been wonderful if the word "rise" was also used in conjunction with Mrs. Weasley's departure from the table, but page 91 uses "standing up" instead. It might seem like a stretch (after all, if Rowling really meant for the 13-people prediction to apply here, why have Ginny sitting on the floor at all? She could have just left her in her chair like everyone else), but I find it difficult to believe that Rowling would insert Trelawney's worries about 13-guest tables if it didn't mean anything (particularly since Trelawney brings the subject up again when Ron and Harry get up from the table in PoA). I am also using Trelawney's prediction in the context of my own beliefs about deaths in the near future--I'm convinced we'll see the death of a Weasley soon. Bill and Charlie seem too underdeveloped to be killed off, and I can't see either of the twins dying anytime soon either (they are too much of a unit, and it strikes me as odd to kill off the comic relief). I think Ron and Ginny will survive through to the seventh book, so that leaves Percy and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. Christina From janeymorgan80 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 18:54:54 2005 From: janeymorgan80 at yahoo.co.uk (janeymorgan80) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:54:54 -0000 Subject: HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132551 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid and one of the twins > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffendor > 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily initially dated Remus, who told her it would never work and to get together with James > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Mad Eye Moody (who will give Dumbledore that year he promised) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic > relationship? He will share a kiss with Susan and maybe Luna but will be too busy for a real relationship. He will start noticing Ginny by the end of the book. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP > cover? Old Penseive, probably one of the founders Griffendor > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? NO > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8, not History of Magic > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs > will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," > will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Neville will perform much better with his new wand and Harry will be pleased that he is around during the showdown with the LV and the DEs. 2. Luna will ask Ron out, this will cause Hermione to realise she likes Ron. 3. Percy becomes a DE and spys on the OotP for LV. 4. Wormtail will return the 'favour' that Harry did, in stopping Remus and Sirius killing him in POA. 5. The effect of an order members death (hagrid?) on Harry will result in the death of one of the twins or Mr Weasley Just for fun 6. When the dementors join LV the Lestranges and Malfoy escape from Askaban (the other DEs don't manage it) 7. Members of Slytherin House join the DA (possibly Theodore Nott and Blaise Zabinni). Harry was asked by Dumbledore to continue DA 8. Harry has extra lessons in Occulmancy and Defence with Dumbledore Janey From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 18:05:24 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:05:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132552 SSSusan wrote: > On my recently completed re-read of canon [Show of hands! How > many AREN'T re-reading?? zgirnius: Yes, must admit to re-reading... SSsusan:> > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations for > Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? I think I might vote for the first > Occlumency lesson, where he really did try to rein in his general > loathing and answer some of Harry's questions. He wasn't perfect, > but it was pretty "big" for Snape. > > Of course, I'd entertain other nominations before deciding for > sure. ;-) Zgirnius: I would actually nominate the Scene in Chapter 32, "Out of the Fire" where Snape is brought to Umbridge's office by Malfoy when Umbridge discovers Harry and Hermione trying to communicate using her fireplace. It combines good actions (Snape does not provide Veritaserum for Umbridge to use on Harry, and Snape, we learn later, understands Harry has seen Sirius in danger and causes other Order members to show up at the Dept. of Mysteries in time to save Harry and Co.) with another classic sarcastic Snape dialogue for Snape fans to savor. (With the utterly despicable Umbridge as his target, mostly...an added bonus!) ..."You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter," he said, surveying her coolly through his greasy curtains of black hair. "Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient." Unbridge flushed. "You can make some more, can't you?" she said, her voice becoming more sweetly girlish as it always is when he was furious... Classic Snape, baiting her by making sure she realizes it was HER mistake that has put her in this position. And he continues: "Certainly", said Snape, his lip curling. "It takes a full moon cycle to mature, so I should have it ready for you in around a month". Further annoying her...also displaying his contempt for her abysmal ignorance of potionmaking... This scene also includes the priceless remark about the "Babbling Beverage". I personally think Snape understood Harry's message, and is successfully hiding this fact from Umbridge. Though I suppose he could have been using Legilimency earlier in the scene, he keeps looking at Harry, and Harry is desperately trying to communicate the vision he has seen of Sirius. However, since I'm not sure we know Snape can do Legilimency without the Legilimens Spell, I prefer the simpler explanation. Of course, now that I've taken yet another look at the final scenes in the book, it gets me to thinking more about Susan's WORST Snape moment, in this new context... SSSusan: >No, his worst > moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP. > > So that's my vote for Snape's worst OoP scene. Anybody want to > nominate another or comment upon this one? Zgirnius: I wonder if Snape might not be even MORE responsible...we know from DDs explanations to Harry in Chapter 37 that when Harry, Hermione and Umbridge do not return from the forest, Snape alerted several order members. The relevant text: >From Chapter 37: Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and then said, "Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt, and Remus Lupin were at headquarters when he (Snape) made contact. All agreed to go to your (Harry's) aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment." Well, we do not know exactly how Order members communicate, but I suspect it involves verbal communication of some form. (Snape's specialty...) Who thinks Snape may have couched his request for Sirius to stay behind in terms that evoked their earlier confrontation, Susan's "worst Snape moment" above? I for one am not betting against this idea... From momy424 at aol.com Tue Jul 12 18:45:14 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:45:14 -0400 Subject: New MoM? Message-ID: <8C75528F9C32F51-81C-11F61@mblk-r31.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132553 Dear all, I have not been back to the list in a while, but with the book just hours away from being released I came back to the list last week to catch up on some of the predictions, which I love to read since it's so great to see so many adults with the same love of the WW as I have. My question is, since I have been gone for so long, was there something written by JK that I have missed that there is definately a new MoM for HBP or is this specuation because of how poorly Fudge reacted in OoTP in regards to Voldemort's return? Just wanted to check. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 12 19:17:32 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:17:32 -0000 Subject: HBP - can anyone help, please In-Reply-To: <001d01c57ee8$8278e280$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132554 Derek wrote: Does anyone know of any > websites, please, where I can read the book when it comes out - only read > it, not downloading? > > Potioncat: I don't know if this is any help, but Newsweek has an article about National Braille Press which will have the book on July 19 at $29.99 ($17.99 pre-ordered) Here's a link to the NBP: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/find.html? mv_session_id=w5myqWXA&w=half+blood+prince&c=&x=16&y=13 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 12 19:34:29 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:34:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132555 SSSusan: Hey, I'm having fun with this! ;-) Alla in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132540 : It is possible that something SO bad connects those two that Snape in his mind may feel entitled to goad Sirius without any reason at all. Magda in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132539 : I suppose I should feel outraged about it but after the pensieve scene I figure that Sirius had it coming. (And I'm not open to changing my mind on this, just to cut short the deluge of email I'm going to get over it). Tammy in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132545 : I agree with Magda, Snape's getting his revenge. SSSusan: I can definitely see why you bring up the history between them as rationale/justification for Snape's words here. I'm not willing to cut him quite so much slack for that, but, yes, it does help EXPLAIN the scene for me, as it perhaps JUSTIFIES Snape for other HPfGUers. D. in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132547 : Well you deliberately skip the part where Sirius being a total ass first by accusing Snape for giving 'orders' (when Snape said 'sit down' and was here from Dumbledore's orders). SSSusan: Erm well, no, I didn't "deliberately" do that. I was presenting what I felt to be *Snape's* worst moment in OoP. I was not presenting a comparison between Snape or Sirius, nor did I anywhere say, "Poor, totally innocent, sweet little Sirius." Do I think Snape behaved worse than Sirius in this encounter? Yup. Do I think Sirius' tone made things worse? Yup. Do I still think Snape went over the line in his taunts? You betcha. :-) You have every right to disagree with me on that, but I didn't "deliberately" choose to leave out Sirius' opening remarks; I just began the excerpt with Snape's first bit of snarkiness. Zgirnius in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132552 : I wonder if Snape might not be even MORE responsible... Well, we do not know exactly how Order members communicate, but I suspect it involves verbal communication of some form. (Snape's specialty...) Who thinks Snape may have couched his request for Sirius to stay behind in terms that evoked their earlier confrontation, Susan's "worst Snape moment" above? I for one am not betting against this idea... SSSusan: Interesting thought. Anybody care to take *this* possibility up? As for Snape's most POSITIVE moment, I'm not surprised many are voting for the DJU & veritaserum scene. Point well made by several that the scene is very "Snape-like" in that he gets to be his snarky self (therefore nicely in character), while also foiling DJU and actually helping Harry without giving Harry any opportunity to feel good about it. Siriusly Snapey Susan From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 19:59:37 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:59:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132556 > SSSusan: > I was presenting > what I felt to be *Snape's* worst moment in OoP. I was not > presenting a comparison between Snape or Sirius, nor did I anywhere > say, "Poor, totally innocent, sweet little Sirius." Do I think > Snape behaved worse than Sirius in this encounter? Yup. Do I think > Sirius' tone made things worse? Yup. Do I still think Snape went > over the line in his taunts? You betcha. :-) I think this only seems like such a bad moment for Snape because we know that eventually Sirius' eagerness to get out of the house leads to his demise, and scenes like this helped create the mindset that made Sirius so reckless. I don't think that this moment had a significant impact on Sirius' behavior, though it's possible that Snape's delivery of the message from Dumbledore did. Sirius would have rushed to help no matter what, I think, but he may not have been so careless if it hadn't been a moment of such exhilirating contrast to his months of "uselessness," which is why Dumbledore blames himself. I think a worse moment for Snape is when Harry and Malfoy dueled briefly in GoF and Hermione was accidentally hit and given huge teeth, and Snape said "I see no difference." Very, very uncalled for, undeserved, cruel, and disgusting. While I agree that Snape's best moment is dealing with Umbridge, I would say that his duel with Lockhart was also good. Not because of dialogue, but just because Snape got to nail a really irritating character. Vote: Who thinks that Snape will get the DADA job anytime in the next two books, or beyond? (Beyond meaning that perhaps after LV is vanquished, we learn that Snape is hired for DADA the following year.) - davenclaw From c-katsos at northwestern.edu Tue Jul 12 19:57:01 2005 From: c-katsos at northwestern.edu (Christina Katsos) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:57:01 -0500 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20050712134446.01b09d58@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 132557 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Something to do with Snape. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, and she will be good (as opposed to evil) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Gryffindor's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No (He'll get an OWL in potions but won't take the advanced class) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 (he'll miss divination, astronomy, and history of magic) Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. We will find out that Snape is the one who told Dumbledore that James and Lily were in danger, repaying his debt to James and gaining Dumbledore's trust. 2. Dumbledore is the heir of Gryffindor 3. We will finally find out what James and Lily did for a living (I think they worked in the Dept. of Mysteries) 4. We'll find out that Dumbledore's brother was the barkeep at the Hog's Head, and we'll actually get to meet him in HBP 5. We'll find out why Harry can cast spells from his wand without touching it (ie, "lumos" in OP), while other characters don't seem to be able to (young Snape in OP) Christina From amis917 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 20:24:28 2005 From: amis917 at hotmail.com (amis917) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:24:28 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132558 I wasn't going to enter...but it turns out - I can't resist! :) Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? -Percy Wesley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) -It's someone who's either completely new or played a very minor role before. This character will help Harry by teaching him things he needs to know about himself and beating Voldemort. He may or may not be a teacher at Hogwarts. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) -Lily had a relationship with Snape before getting together with James. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? -Someone new. Dumbledore will bring him/her in. He/she will be able to adequately prepare the students for the war. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? -Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? -Percy Wesley 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? -An ancient pensive. It has stored the history of Hogwarts including information about the founders. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? -Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? -Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? -8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. A spy within the Order will be revealed. 2. Harry will find a way to communicate with Sirius using the mirrors. 3. Neville's mother HAS been sending him messages with the gum wrappers. This information will help Harry find the ancient pensive. 4. Hermonie and Ron begin a romantic relationship. 5. The twin's joke shop serves as a base for the Order closer to Hogwarts. -Amie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 20:51:40 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New MoM? In-Reply-To: <8C75528F9C32F51-81C-11F61@mblk-r31.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20050712205140.11551.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132559 Shannon wrote: > My question is, since I have been gone for so long, > was there something written by JK that I have missed > that there is definately a new MoM for HBP or is > this specuation because of how poorly Fudge reacted > in OoTP in regards to Voldemort's return? > JKR at her website, under FAQ says this "Will Arthur Weasley be the new MoM? Alas, no" this means (at least to me) that there will be a new MoM. You can also check out www.hpandthehalfbloodprince.com there's a ton of info on HBP. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 20:55:23 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:55:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I was thinking about Sirius' death and PoA, and it occurred to me > that Sirius MUST continue to play some key role in the story even > after his death -... > > The reason I say this is that otherwise, PoA was basically a waste. > If Sirius has no further significant influence on the story, then > why did the story need Sirius in the first place? ... > > ... > Perhaps it has to do with Sirius' estate, as some have said, which I > think could be interesting - or perhaps it has a lot to do with > those two-way mirrors. > > - davenclaw bboyminn: I'm convinced that Sirius will come back to the story, but that doesn't mean he will come back to life. I really don't support the idea of communication with Sirius via the two-way mirror. Harry tried that and it didn't work. However, I'm not against some type of communication through the Veiled Archway. We know you can hear the voices of people behind the Veil. Under the right circumstances, I could see Sirius and Harry communicating. There is also a theory the Harry might travel 'beyond the Veil' and could interact with Sirius and his parents that way. The 'beyond the Veil and Return' is not unprecedanted in mythology, and heroic myths in general are about a series of deaths and rebirths of the hero; although, mostly metaphorical. When Harry entered Hogwarts, that was a metaphorical death and rebirth. Also, when he saved the Stone, or confronted Voldemort in the graveyard. Harry can never be the same after these experiences; who he was died, and he is now who he has become by the experience. So, there is a cadre of us late night HP obssessives who do support a journey beyond the Veil and of course, back again. In addition to this, we have memories, fresh and/or from a pensieve, and flashbacks. Further - JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. That implies that there is more to Sirius's story; more will be revealed in future books. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 20:57:31 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:57:31 -0000 Subject: New MoM? In-Reply-To: <8C75528F9C32F51-81C-11F61@mblk-r31.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, momy424 at a... wrote: > Dear all, > >... > > My question is, since I have been gone for so long, was there something written by JK that I have missed that there is definately a new MoM for HBP or is this specuation because of how poorly Fudge reacted in OoTP in regards to Voldemort's return? > > Just wanted to check. > > Shannon bboyminn: JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004 miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books? JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of information, I hear you cry! Beyond that, all we know is that it is not Arthur Weasley. Steve/bboyminn From aburgess68 at comcast.net Tue Jul 12 21:00:01 2005 From: aburgess68 at comcast.net (Angela Burgess) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:00:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Moment proving "bad teacher" theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132562 davenclaw says in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132556: "I think a worse moment for Snape is when Harry and Malfoy dueled briefly in GoF and Hermione was accidentally hit and given huge teeth, and Snape said "I see no difference." Very, very uncalled for, undeserved, cruel, and disgusting." MmeBurgess: I agree with this completely. It is Snape's worst moment and one that unfortunately defines his character for me. This is what made my earlier arguement about Snape being a good or, IMO, bad teacher. This moment has nothing to do with the necessity for discipline in a science-lab class, as was argued by houyhnhnm in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132458. I understand being cranky and snippy. But moments like this in my school would warrent disciplinary action by my principal. Perhaps houyhnhnm's school is different, but my system instructs us to create a "positive learning environment" in which "ALL students learn the material". If this is not done, it doesn't matter how much you know or how much teach. If the students don't learn it, you didn't really teach it. Now, as a high school teacher who sees roughly 400 students per year, I understand that despite my best efforts to create a positive environment that brings down the affective filter, some students simply don't want to learn. Others have jumped in above their head. But, comments such as the one above do NOT create the necessary environment for affective learning, IMO. MmeBurgess From gretchnky at aol.com Tue Jul 12 20:55:21 2005 From: gretchnky at aol.com (gretchnky at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:55:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Contest Message-ID: <194.42a75c1d.30058839@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132563 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lucius Malfoy 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Viktor Krum 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Minerva McGonagall, much more important than transformation classes now. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones? not sure on this one really 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Snape's pensive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes, his Gram will make sure of that 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Neville can and will preform great feats of magic with the use of his own new wand. 2. Luna has the natural eye of a true seer though noone will choose to believe her until its too late. 3. Draco will seek out Voldemort in hopes of avenging his fathers death. 4. The twins will shift from making joke products to making weapony that will aide the Order. 5. Percy will realize that loyalties should lie with his family and Dubmbedore and come crawling back begging forgiveness (ok, might not happen but Id sure like to see it). Gretchnky Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From allthingshp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:12:55 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:12:55 -0000 Subject: HBP predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132564 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I am thinking Dumbledore, maybe Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Felix Felicitus 3. What is Lily's big secret? I don't really know..I have always wondered though why Voldemort tells Lily to "get out of the way" instead of killing her outright that Halloween in Godric's Hollow. Could her secret explain something extrodinary about her that Voldemort couldn't touch (or didn't dare) and that when he did eventually kill her, resulted in his downfall? We also already know Lily's eye color is important somehow. May's gem stone is emerald and it's flower is lily...so I wonder what significance if any that might give. Emerald supposably is the gem of seers, May is a month of resurrection.....Any clues here maybe? 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A member of the Order of the Phoenix, maybe Kingsley? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Possibly Ginny (the 5th book hints to her qualities he would be attracted to) though I do think we'll see her with Dean Thomas at least for awhile, or maybe Susan Bones (she seems to pop up innoculously in the series...usually a clue to future importance... and we know she lost a lot of family to Voldemort) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mr. Diggory, Cedric's dad. (I have no idea here but he works at the ministry so why not?) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Looking at the rest of the artwork in the US editions I think this looks more like the Goblet of Fire than a Pensieve but I can't for the life of me begin to guess why JKR would bring the GoF back into the story, so maybe it's something else entirely. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes...if not through his own OWL score than through McGonagall's intervention 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, I don't see Neville voluntarily taking this class even if he had scored well enough on his OWLs (which seems unlikely considering his history with Potions). 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8....Although could someone reply to this post and explain for me what "getting an OWL" constitutes. Is this just getting an acceptable passing grade or do you need to get an Outstanding to have it be an "OWL" you count? Five Predictions: (Sorry everyone...mine are awfully boring. I just can't even begin to guess where the story is going!) ? Harry is the heir of Godric Gryffindor (Lion Power) ? Harry will be made the Gryffindor Quidditch captain, Ron will stay on as Keeper and Ginny will be the new Chaser (we need the requisite two Weasleys on the Gryffindor team, right?) ? The ability of house elves to apparate and disapparate into Hogwarts will be utiltized somehow ? Percy will reunite with the family (I hope), although not every Weasley will be accepting of his return ? Dean Thomas (and probably Seamus Finnegan too) will have more prominent roles in the unfolding of HBP (I say this because I think that may be him on the back cover of the American edition of the book) allthingshp From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 21:04:14 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:04:14 -0000 Subject: Sorting hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" wrote: > > I personally think the hat will get destroyed at some point - but > whether this is a good or bad thing, I don't know... > JLV xx .. Thats a really interesting idea! maybe at the end of book 7 the hat gets destroyed and the seperate houses are abolished, and the school becomes united. i've always thought its a bit of a wrongun for a school to have a 'mean' house where everyone in it turns into a 'baddie' (obviously thats an exageration, but you know what i mean) when i suggested that the hat sorts people based on family history, i was trying to find evidence for Harry being related to Gryffindor really. I think theres definetly going to be more story behind how Harry produced the sword from the sorting hat though. I wander what would come out of the hat if someone from another house needed something? I doubt we'll ever find out as most of the heroes are from Gryffindor. Thanks for finding all that evidence, it cleared up a few things in my mind. the part about how the sorting hat came into being is interesting "'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead!" The fact that it was originally gryffindors hat could be significant in future books. the hat probably knows a lot about the founders as well, as they created it. Phillippajrice From crazytortilla79 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:07:30 2005 From: crazytortilla79 at yahoo.com (crazytortilla79) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:07:30 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132566 Emerging from very deep lurkdom.... > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) Dumbledore. It's customary to find out a character's backstory before they snuff it. Dumbledore was bestowed the title of HBP by purebloods due to his inclusion of students from all magical backgrounds. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She worked in the DoM and made some major breakthrough that could have helped Voldemort with his immortality. That is the reason he was hesitant to kill her. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, who is the "Old Lion Guy". He will be a friend of DD and competent. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic > relationship? Hannah Abbott (she ditches the pigtails). It won't be anything serious, though and he will hook up with Ginny at the end of Book 7. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones, with Arthur Weasley being promoted to her old position as head of Magical Law Enforcement. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP > cover? Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Hermione will be the only student to get an "O" on the exam. Snape will have to take students who got "E" which includes Harry, Draco, and Ron. Snape will call his students "dunderheads" like he did in SS. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs > will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," > will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We get to meet Ragnok the goblin (briefly mentioned by Bill in OOTP) and he will help the Order. 2. A death eater is a Metamorphmagus and is disguising themselves as an Order member to spy. 3. We see what happened at Godric's Hollow, and find out Peter Pettigrew was there. Harry will see the events of that evening via his Voldemort Vision. 4. Percy Weasley will not immediately make up with his family. Their relationship will be strained until some crucial moment, when he risks/sacrifices his life for a member of his family. 5. Blaise Zabini joins the DA as the "Good Slytherin" crazytortilla (who is hoping she got everything right as far as posting goes, and is scurrying back to her cave of lurkdom...) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 12 21:15:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:15:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132567 davenclaw > I think a worse moment for Snape is when Harry and Malfoy dueled > briefly in GoF and Hermione was accidentally hit and given huge teeth, > and Snape said "I see no difference." Very, very uncalled for, > undeserved, cruel, and disgusting. Potioncat: Agreed. It was a real put-down for Draco, and in front of Gryffidors, too! The boy's jinx worked beyond his wildest dreams and Snape says he sees no effect at all! What does it take to please the man? (I really do think this is a low point, but not really for the reason I just gave. ;-)) But I think his finest moment is when he isn't even there...but then, I'm sure many on the list think a no Snape moment is a good Snape moment. The best I think is when DD is praising Snape for his actions after the Umbridge incident. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:29:34 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:29:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: <20050712172344.64573.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > You say that like it's a bad thing. > > What Snape wants - and is getting - in this scene is > simply...payback. He's taunting Sirius and getting him riled up > because he knows he can turn the tables now and there's jack-all > Sirius can do about it. He's enjoying having the control. > > I suppose I should feel outraged about it but after the pensieve > scene I figure that Sirius had it coming. (And I'm not open to > changing my mind on this, just to cut short the deluge of email I'm > going to get over it). I think one of the things we are going to learn in the upcoming books is some more about Snapes background that is going to balance out the *apparently* unjustified attack against him. I find it difficult to believe that Snape was always just book up his nose innocent when it came to the Marauder/Snape battles. Really if he was just a shy studious boy who was forever being picked on by others he would have been a Ravenclaw like Luna. Remember, this guy is a Slytherin. Ambition and Cunning. Just because he didn't give as good as he got in that scene doesn't mean he was always a victim. As for what Sirius has coming. I think you need to keep perspective. Sirius (and James) were obnoxious schoolboys who performed the magical equivenlent of pulling down someones pants during PE class. Snape is a terrorist. I would say that he has a whole lot more coming to him than Sirius, who spent thirteen years in Azakban paying for sins, real and imagined. IMO, I would say that you are severely whitewashing Snape's actions in that scene. > Well, it really wasn't Harry's business, was it? This was the latest > outburst in an old feud between two peers. Well, Sirius is Harry's godfather. I would say thats enough to make it Harry's business. I should probably get around to giving my two cents on Snape's worst moment in OOTP. I don't think it's Snape/Sirius. Its not great but the two of them are adults and peers. For that reason alone it cannot hold a candle to the way Snape treats Harry. I would say his worst moment is the whole Occulmency debacle. From the moment he decided to announce that it would be under the guise of something designed to humiliate Harry to every insult and invasive mind invasion, the lessons were an excercise in just how small and petty a man Snape is. > > And just to try to keep things *POSITIVE*, how `bout nominations > > for Snape's BEST moment in OoP, too? It depends on what you mean by best moment. Do you mean the moment where he is the most human and likeable? Or the part where I cheered him on? Or the part where I thought he was the most entertaining? I thought he was the most human and likeable when he seems to express genuine pleasure at seeing Proffessor McGonagall healthy at the end of the OOTP. Maybe it was the way I read it but I thought it was probably the warmest and most decent Snape had ever been in the entire series. I cheered him on and found him humorous in the poison/Vers scene with Umbridge. I liked it because he was using his powers of sarcasm and bitterness on an appropriate target instead of children. He was finally cutting down someone who deserved it. I find sarcastic and bitter characters very entertaining in almost all cases but until this moment, Snape had always used sarcasm to reveal his own pettiness instead of revealing the pettiness of others (which is the genius of many characters in this mold). phoenixgod2000 From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:45:15 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:45:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132569 > >>SSSusan: > > I was presenting what I felt to be *Snape's* worst moment in OoP. > I was not presenting a comparison between Snape or Sirius, nor did > I anywhere say, "Poor, totally innocent, sweet little Sirius." Do > I think Snape behaved worse than Sirius in this encounter? Yup. > Betsy Hp: What prevents this from being Snape's "worst moment" for me is the very fact that Sirius starts the fight and Sirius escalates the fight. It's quite important, IMO, that Sirius starts the scene off by undermining Snape's authority. "Sit down, Potter" [Snape attempting to take control of the interview by establishing that he is, in fact, in charge.] "You know," [...] "I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see." [Sirius sending Harry a definite message that the adult authority figure in his life is a- okay with him disrespecting and ignoring anything Snape has to say. Not something I think any teacher would approve of. Can you imagine how McGonagall would have reacted to such goading?] (OotP, scholastic hardback p.518) Harry makes his first attempt to diffuse the situation by sitting down. Snape attempts to continue the meeting by ignoring Sirius but Sirius refuses to be ignored. Snape demonstrates that at this point in time, when it comes to a battle of wits, Snape has the advantage. I will say that Snape responds rather quickly to Sirius's goading, but as others have pointed out, there is a history at work here. The meeting continues, Harry gets horrible news, Snape agrees that the situation is not good and he attempts to leave. Sirius, for some reason, stops Snape from going and starts their little battle of wits up again. (519) Except this time, Sirius stands up. Harry notices that Sirius has the physical advantage and that Snape, possibly in response to a perceived threat, has gripped his wand. (520) Despite his grip on his wand, Snape continues to battle verbally with Sirius. Sirius takes out his wand and Snape responds by drawing his. The interesting thing here, IMO, is that Harry tries to diffuse the situation (for a second time now) by calling Sirius by name. To me this suggests that Sirius is the one acting out of control. Especially with Sirius described as "livid" and Snape as "calculating". (520) Now, with wands in hand and with Sirius clearly trying to intimidate Snape physically, the two proceed to verbally battle again. And, once again, Snape, though not the first to speak, gets in the more powerful digs. At this point Sirius actually raises his wand. (520) Harry *again* tries to stop the brewing fight, and again he chooses to do so by attempting to stop *Sirius* from taking action. At this point Sirius is described as roaring and snarling his words, while Snape merely speaks. (521) The Weasleys arrive and the fight ends. To my mind *Sirius* is the one who chooses to fight with Snape. Snape merely responds. Would it have been more mature for Snape to walk away. Sure. But with their history I think it's asking a lot of Snape. Especially if, as I suspect, Sirius usually came out on top in their earlier clashes. I think that, in many ways, Snape was fascinated to see Sirius react so to his goading. And I think he enjoyed the fact that Sirius's taunts didn't hurt him as much as they used to. You could say that this scene was all about Snape facing down his own personal boggart. Unfortunately for Sirius, it also points out how far he's fallen. He can't even get *Snivellus* to yield. As to Snape's "best moment" in OotP, I totally agree with Magda. The entire end scene with Umbridge where Snape demonstrates the huge advantage to having a Slytherin on his side completely rocks, IMO. (Here's hoping Harry gets a wiff of a rich dark roast and starts taking the Sorting Hat seriously in the upcoming books.) Exactly how many lives does Snape save that night? There's Neville of course. And since he's the one to inform the Order of Harry's probable actions, I'd say Luna, Ron, Ginny, Hermione, and Harry owe him a great big thank you as well. Betsy Hp From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:49:31 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:49:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132570 SSSusan wrote: "No, (Snape's) worst moment imo was his *goading* of Sirius as 12GP." Del replies: Unsurprisingly, I disagree. If anyone was responsible for this horrible scene, IMO, it was Sirius. Let's review the events, shall we? Harry was told to go to the kitchen to meet Professor Snape. Interestingly enough, Molly insisted on the "Professor" when giving the message to Harry. I take that as a reminder to *us*, the readers, that Snape was indeed one of Harry's teachers, and that it was in *that* function that he wanted a word with Harry. When Harry arrived in the kitchen, he found Snape and Sirius "both seated at the long kitchen table, glaring in opposite directions. The silence between them was heavy with mutual dislike. A letter lay open on the table in front of Sirius." That's quite a set-up we have here. First we learn that Sirius had decided to intrude on what was supposed to be a teacher-pupil discussion. That was his right, granted, but it's not like Harry asked for it, either. Second, we learn that they had *both* been keeping silent. *Neither* was goading the other... yet. Third, we learn that Sirius *knew* why Snape was there, since he had read the letter, which was presumably from DD. So Sirius knew that Snape hadn't asked for the job. Then Harry announced his presence, and Snape said: "Sit down, Potter." OK, so that's not the nicest way to phrase such a request. Sure, a "Please sit down Mr Potter" would have been nicer. But it's not like it's insulting either. It's simply Snape's USUAL curt way. There was NOTHING in those 3 words to warrant Sirius's reaction: "'You know,' said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, 'I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see.'" That's multiple insults! Let me count: 1. "loudly": Snape is not deaf, so there was no need for Sirius to speak loudly. Who are the people we usually talk to "loudly" even though they are not deaf? Right, those we take for *idiots*. 2. "leaning back on his rear chair legs": I've always been taught that such a position is disrespectful to whoever I'm talking to, and that it is acceptable only between friends. Maybe Sirius was taught differently, but somehow I doubt it... 3. "speaking to the ceiling": OK, you can't do much more disrespectful than that. Sirius was not even *looking* at Snape, he was not even talking TO Snape. It's like Snape was no more than an insect or a servant, but definitely not an equal. 4. "I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape" : and why not, please? Snape WAS Harry's teacher, whether Sirius liked it or not, so he WAS entitled to give Harry orders, when acting as his teacher. Sirius was simply trying to deprive Snape of his teacher's authority, *something that he had no right to do, ESPECIALLY since Snape was here SPECIFICALLY on DD's orders, to talk about something that would happen at school, and Sirius KNEW that*. 5. "It's my house, you see": oh, how lowly! Yes, it was Sirius's house, but NEITHER Harry NOR Snape were here because it was Sirius's house. They were BOTH here because it was the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. So it was shameful of Sirius to try and pull that one on Snape. So that's 5 insults in 3 lines. And Snape got the message all right, since the next line goes: "An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face." Sirius MEANT to insult Snape, and he managed it too. So now Snape was trying to get his revenge, and we get the "you like to get involved" scene, that ended with: "'Merely that I am sure you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing *useful*,' Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, 'for the Order.' It was Sirius's turn to flush. Snape's lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry." Snape insulted Sirius back. That's one point for Sirius, one point for Snape. The score was even. I find it very interesting that Snape then *turned to Harry*. It seems very obvious to me that he was satisfied with having gotten back at Sirius, and that he was now concentrating on his business with Harry. Indeed he then told Harry - politely - that DD wanted him to study Occlumency. They went over what Occlumency is, and why DD wanted Harry to study it, and then on to the crucial question of who was going to teach Harry. When learning that it would be Snape, Harry was devastated, and... "He looked quickly round at Sirius for support. 'Why can't Dumbledore teach Harry?' asked Sirius aggressively. 'Why you?'" Hum, seems to me that someone was not being polite here, and it was not Snape... Unfortunately, Snape being Snape, he couldn't help but answer just as unpolitely: "'I suppose because it is a headmaster's privilege to delegate less enjoyable tasks,' said Snape silkily. 'I assure you I did not beg for the job.' He got to his feet. 'I will expect you at six o'clock on Monday evening, Potter. My office. If anybody asks, you are taking remedial Potions. Nobody who has seen you in my classes could deny you need them.' He turned to leave, his black travelling cloak billowing behind him." So Sirius attacked Snape, and Snape attacked Harry in response. Once again, the score was even (well, sort of, in Snape's mind anyway). And Snape once again reminded Sirius that all this business was *Dumbledore*'s idea, not Snape's. If Sirius had kept his temper then, when the score was equal, Snape would have left without doing any further damage. But NO, Sirius just HAD to have the last word, didn't he? So he called Snape back, to tell him that "'if I hear you're using these Occlumency lessons to give Harry a hard time, you'll have me to answer to.'" Oh *please*... What EXACTLY was Sirius trying to achieve here?? If he was trying to support Harry, he could have waited until Snape was gone. If he was trying to warn Snape, he could have done it before Harry came in, or later privately, or in a letter, *as any responsible parent or guardian would do*. But threatening Harry's teacher right in front of Harry was downright insulting, and Snape caught on that right away. He let out his quip about James's and Harry's arrogance (not so unfounded where James was concerned, apparently), and then SIRIUS got his wand out FIRST! Sure Snape had gripped his too, but he had left it INSIDE his robes, so Sirius was the one who physically attacked first. And then Sirius, him again, used the ultimate insult, "Snivellus" and everything completely unravelled from there. So I'm sorry, but I have to say that *Sirius* is the one I blame for all this unpleasantess. He looked for every opportunity to insult Snape. Snape never *started* an argument in this scene, he only *responded* to Sirius's goading. Now I grant that Snape's goading might be considered more cruel than Sirius's. But hey, that was Sirius's fault if he couldn't avoid getting into verbal fights with someone who was so much better than he was! It's not like Sirius didn't *know* that Snape easily outwitted him, so if he chose to insult him, he should have been ready to take whatever Snape would throw at him. Blaming Snape is as unfair as blaming Harry for Draco's wounds anytime Harry beats Draco after Draco came looking for him. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that Snape was right, or justified, or whatever. He shouldn't have played Sirius's game, nor should he have insulted Sirius, nor should he have taken so much pleasure in hurting him. But Sirius *did* ask for it... Just like Draco regularly "asks" to be turned into a giant slug or something... Just my opinion, obviously. Del From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 22:18:37 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:18:37 -0700 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest - Off Limit Spoiler Notice Message-ID: <410-220057212221837937@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132571 Greetings all, As the "Minion in Charge of Spoilers" I would like to inform every one, that predictions stating that the "HBP will end in a cliff hanger", will be of no value due to the comments made by Jim Dale this morning on the "Today Show". Thanks, Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 22:23:52 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:52 -0700 Subject: OOTP observations Message-ID: <006301c58730$6332f0f0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132572 Hi, As so many are doing, I've been reading the entire series again, preparing for the release of HBP. Here are some things I've observed, new thoughts and reactions of mine. First of all, what was with Molly at Grimauld place? She was so hateful to Sirius. I've always liked Molly, but this time, I'm disgusted with her. She was downright cruel to Sirius, and she even insulted him in front of Harry. That's really bad form. Was she that jealous of the bond between Harry and Sirius? Sirius. I know we debate this regularly on the list, but reading OOTP immediately after reading GOF and POA before that, I am convinced something not quite right was happening with Sirius during OOTP. His actions in GOF are what you'd expect a caring godfather/guardian to do. He's caring, supportive, concerned for Harry's safety. He's so wonderful in Dumbledore's office after the third task! How can that same person be the Sirius who is so different in the next book? I know we've discussed the possibility that Sirius is being drugged or poisoned in some way, especially after Harry reads those lines about a plant being used to cause confusion, irritability and the rest. sorry, only audio books at hand, so I'm not able to quote chapter and exact phrasing. I just can't believe such a drastic change in Sirius. I think there has to be something more to it. JKR has said that there are still things about Sirius to be discovered. Will we learn that Kreacher or someone else was poisoning him? I've long believed there must be a spy in the order, so perhaps that person? Snape's worst memory. My only comment about this--because I think we've beaten this subject to death--is that Snape must have overheard the Marauders discussing werewolves! The conversation is in his memory, and he is close to them. How else could Harry hear it? i wonder if this will shed any light in future on the so-called prank? Did Snape indeed *know* that Remus was a werewolf, after this scene, and did he go looking for him to prove it? Hmmm. In the battle at the ministry. There's been some talk about the curse Bella threw at Sirius. Some have said it couldn't be the killing curse, because it was described as a red light. However, I just read that part, and the curse that sends Sirius through the veil is not described by a color. All that the narrative says is, "A second jet of light hit Sirius..." Are we meant to assume it was a green light, a stunner that caused him to fall through the veil or perhaps some other spell that we will discover in the future. Perhaps to do with the spy? Thoughts anyone? Sherry From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 22:56:57 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712225657.72404.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132573 > SSSusan: > Erm well, no, I didn't "deliberately" do that. I was presenting > what I felt to be *Snape's* worst moment in OoP. I was not > presenting a comparison between Snape or Sirius, nor did I anywhere > say, "Poor, totally innocent, sweet little Sirius." Do I think > Snape behaved worse than Sirius in this encounter? Yup. Do I think > Sirius' tone made things worse? Yup. Do I still think Snape went > over the line in his taunts? You betcha. :-) You have every right > to disagree with me on that, but I didn't "deliberately" choose to > leave out Sirius' opening remarks; I just began the excerpt with > Snape's first bit of snarkiness. I think you were deliberate in being selective to present your view , as if Sirius didn't have any intent to hurt, or didn't asked for what was coming to him (or as if Snape's words weren't a 'respond' and that Snape's nastiness was completely out-of-the-blue). To miss the fact that Sirius started it all (and being the offensive and fired up all through from his end), is like some reader insist how horrible Harry is far worst as a person for beating Draco by quoting the entire passage by elimiating the part where Draco insult the Weasleys, thus making Draco looks better and more of a victim (ex: "see how Draco was noble enough never resort to physical violence, what Harry did was totally uncalled for, and behaved far worst as a person in this situation"). NOPE sorry I just don't see how Snape behave worst than Sirius when it is Sirius who started it himself and acting stupid in something he can't handle, just like the Draco example. And really, what Snape said about Sirius was more or less the truth: he WAS useless (especially his unpleasant bitchy attitude gets in the way of others). And it's not like Snape is only one, Fred and George said the same thing to Sirius as well. If Sirius didn't want others to point out the truth of his sorry state then he should have shut the hell up, instead of attacking Snape, whom he antagonized and thought would be a good punching bag to release his frustration, but turns out the jokes is on him. It's only "hurt worst" in a sense because Sirius is reduced to a sore loser, yet he's still stuck in his past glory day where he used to have an upper hand, and now deluded and stupid enough to go out his way to pick a pathetic fight with someone (whom he used to feel superior over) who held better cards. The best Sirius got was one childish, nasty highschool nickname that only reveal his stuck-in-past-glory mindset...how sad is that!? If THIS is supposed to be Snape's "worst" (whatever that means) in OOTP, then sheesssh he ain't so bad at all. d. (others point out the actual 'worst' I'd agree more regard to Harry and Neville) From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 23:11:27 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:11:27 -0000 Subject: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132574 > > bboyminn: > > > This open the opportunity for me to make a general comment on the > nature of the Sorting Hat. Others have speculated that the Sorting Hat > gives great weight to what the student wants, or what the student > asks for. Of course, I will immediately point out that Harry never > asked for Gryffindor, he simply said 'not Slytherin'. > Chys: You know, your decision making can affect your future and change who you are or are to become. The person you are 6 months from now is completely different from the person you were 6 months ago, based on your decisions and how you react to the decisions of others, so asking a student their opinion is a good way to guess what may happen, in that potential. Chys From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 23:34:04 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:34:04 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations In-Reply-To: <006301c58730$6332f0f0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > In the battle at the ministry. There's been some talk about the curse Bella > threw at Sirius. Some have said it couldn't be the killing curse, because > it was described as a red light. However, I just read that part, and > the curse that sends Sirius through the veil is not described by a color. > All that the narrative says is, "A second jet of light hit Sirius..." Are > we meant to assume it was a green light, a stunner that caused him to fall > through the veil or perhaps some other spell that we will discover in the > future. Perhaps to do with the spy? > > Thoughts anyone? > > Sherry I always thought that the curse didn't matter, because it sort of never got a chance to do whatever it was meant to do. Whether that was kill or torture or whatever. It just acted as a hand would pushing Sirius backwards. Tamara From ltlisone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 23:05:56 2005 From: ltlisone at yahoo.com (ltlisone) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest-Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050712230556.29054.qmail@web30413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132576 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy, who was stupid and not a spy for the order > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) Some one we haven't meet yet who is also no longer alive. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will > be eliminated and > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She have some magical power unknown to James... > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? > New Character not yet introduced, maybe the Felix guy > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic > relationship? Susan Bones, because I like her :) and maybe someone new but not Luna or Ginny yet > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP > cover? Dumbledores' Penseive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No and neither will ron > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs > will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," > will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the > first 5 > predictions will be evaluated and included in your > score. 1. Ron will be quiditch captain. 2. A slytherin will join the DA which will continue. 3. The first chapter will be set in Hogwarts in the summer holidays, not a flash back scene. 4. Harry will access Voldemort's memories / mind maybe with the aid of the pensive. 5. SOMEONE will apparate on Hogwarts grounds. :) Itlisone ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 00:25:04 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:25:04 -0000 Subject: Philospher's Stone Question - and Sorting Hat second guessing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132577 I vmonte wrote: It doesn't work because Fred and George did not give Ron a real spell. I think this scene was meant as a joke. JKR told us right away that Wormtail was a coward. Ron did not have to turn the rat "yellow" because the rat was already "yellow." davenclaw wrote: And yet, when I said that Pettigrew didn't belong in Gryffindor, but instead in Slytherin, everyone objected that he was brave for cutting off his finger. To me that isn't brave. Ability to endure brief physical pain and sacrifice a finger doesn't qualify when it is done to avoid facing the consequences of your actions by framing someone else and hiding as a rat for 13 years. Facing your fears and accepting the consequences of your actions is actual bravery. I also disagree with those who contend that Percy belonged in Gryffindor because he was brave enough to defy his family. He had two choices: defy his family, or his boss. He didn't do the more "brave" option, he did the one that was best for his career. Ambition, ambition, ambition. He should have been a Slytherin. vmonte again: I have a feeling that Percy and Wormtail are going to redeem themselves in some form or another. Perhaps the Sorting Hat is able to see the potential in people. Or, maybe the hat can tell that Percy and Wormtail will eventually find the courage to do the right thing. By the way, I agree with you that Wormtail is (at present) a big coward. He is just disgusting! Percy is either an idiot or just really misguided. He will probably realize the error of his ways. Vivian From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 00:47:39 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:47:39 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- email entry to Tiger, too -- new deadline Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132578 You must also email your entry to tigerpatronus**at**yahoo** dot**com to be officially entered in the prediction contest. If you only post your entry to the list, you aren't officially entered. To be eligible for the butterbeer, you have to email it. Seriously. Otherwise, no butterbeer for you! And the deadline is Thursday, July 14, 11:50 PM (Midnight) EDT. TK -- TigerPatronus From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 01:06:51 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713010651.45798.qmail@web54706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132579 bboyminn: I'm convinced that Sirius will come back to the story, but that doesn't mean he will come back to life. I really don't support the idea of communication with Sirius via the two-way mirror. Harry tried that and it didn't work. However, I'm not against some type of communication through the Veiled Archway. We know you can hear the voices of people behind the Veil. Under the right circumstances, I could see Sirius and Harry communicating. My reply: Or this could happen in the end of the books I personally believe that perhaps the ending will be Sirius introducing Harry to his mom and dad that would be very beautiful to me. :) Regardless Sirius is going to be important because he's important to Harry. :) ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 01:19:10 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:19:10 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 2 days left -- email entry to Tiger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132580 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com* and to the newsgroup. You must email your entry to TigerPatronus to be entered in the contest. You will receive an email confirmation of your entry. Deadline: Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 11:59 pm (midnight) EDT. Note the time change. Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. Predictions that only describe the covers are worth no points. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, are one of the 14 people who bought HBP in Canada, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her Minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment is ongoing.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or another superlative title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 01:26:30 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius In-Reply-To: <20050713010651.45798.qmail@web54706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050713012630.84703.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132581 Melanie: > ...edited... > Regardless Sirius is going to be important because > he's important to Harry. :) > > ~Melanie > And let's not forget that if a entire book was named after him, he's gotta be big. JKR has also said that she likes him, so I bet he won't keep him away for long. I hope Harry will meet him again, there're so many things left unsaid on both sides. I kinda like you idea of Sirius introducing Lily and James to Harry, but only as long as it isn't after Harry's death. Maybe I've been reading a bit too much sci-fi, but I think that all three of them could return in some sort of way (like in the priori incantem at the graveyard scene in GoF), an echo of them shows up to encourage Harry, much like Lily, James and Cedric did that time, but longer. I know I'm asking for too much, but a girl can dream! OT: I dreamt yesterday that the "do not disturb" sign on the door (JKRowling.com) had disappeared, I woke up before I got to open it. I think we'll see some updates before saturday... Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 13 01:58:58 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] 14 books sold early. In-Reply-To: <20050616180459.32126.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050713015858.27810.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132582 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050712/HARRY12/TPNational/?query=harry+potter A Canadian store accidentally sold 14 books early. It would be cool to get the return thank-you gift. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 13 01:58:51 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:58:51 -0000 Subject: JK Rowling, an anti-American? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132583 It's one thing not to include American characters in the books(no problems with Bulgarian or French) or to disallow any American actors from acting in the movies not even as extras (no problems with American producers producing the movies and American money can funding them ), but isn't it going to the extreme not to give chance to American kids to interview J.K.Rowling? I mean children from practically, every other country are included in her guest-list as cub reporters but why is that opportunity denied to American kids alone? After all, America as one statistic put it, accounts for 55% of all books sold? Bye Adi From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Jul 13 02:55:01 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:55:01 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132584 The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. JKR nurtured that character, alluded to , titillated us , with just enough information to deliver a great punch line that Mrs Figg was really an animagus and the local support and protection for Harry in his early years. Many fans looked forward to JKR revealing Mrs Figg as a powerful OOTP member, adept in the DADA. There was only one problem I can see that could strip Figg of her powers ? we guessed the punch-line. You know when you share tall tales around camp-fires? The story teller gets to the climax and says, "And you know what happened next ?" ?And then someone guess the conclusion ? the story teller says, "No, that's not what happens. Actually, " and then stalls for time while he tries to come up with an alternative result. Jo, face it. Someone somewhere will pick many of the plots and surprises. Stay true to the story you want to tell, because even if we guess a line of thought, a line is just ONE dimension. You fill the characters out to be 3 dimensional (or 4 dimensional if time turners are used). There are many characters that have been developed throughout the first 5 (now 6) books. Don't let others steal your preferred plots and twists. That includes those away from Hogwarts:- Bill; Charlie; Percy; Fred & George; Norbert; Grindalwald; Tonks; Moody; Rosemerta; Fleur; Viktor; Mde. Maxime; flying carpets; ... (anyone else care to add to that list? I'd be disappointed if Book #7 last chapter was the only thing true to Jo's prefered story ... Have fun with those characters you planted somewhere. Don't just bury them under fertilizer. aussie / norbertsmummy From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 02:58:45 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK Rowling, an anti-American? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713025845.80881.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132585 --- theadimail wrote: > It's one thing not to include American characters > in the books(no > problems with Bulgarian or French) or to disallow > any American actors > from acting in the movies not even as extras (no > problems with > American producers producing the movies and > American money can > funding them ), but isn't it going to the extreme > not to give chance > to American kids to interview J.K.Rowling? I mean > children from > practically, every other country are included in her > guest-list as cub > reporters but why is that opportunity denied to > American kids alone? > After all, America as one statistic put it, accounts > for 55% of all > books sold? > Bye > Adi > So you can say she's anti-italian, anti-spanish, anti-japanesse, etc etc because none on them (and most other countries in the world) have been on the books or movies, or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Emerson and Melissa (from Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron) from the USA and they're both going to interview he on Saturday; so is Steve (from Lexicon) and Jo has said she loves the site. So anti-American? I don't think so. IMO of course Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 03:02:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JK Rowling, an anti-American? In-Reply-To: <20050713025845.80881.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050713030233.81872.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132586 Sorry for repling my own email, I apologize to our kind Elves for I should have replied to OT-Chatter. So please, if anyone will reply please do so at OT --- Juli wrote: > > > --- theadimail wrote: > > > It's one thing not to include American characters > > in the books(no > > problems with Bulgarian or French) or to disallow > > any American actors > > from acting in the movies not even as extras (no > > problems with > > American producers producing the movies and > > American money can > > funding them ), but isn't it going to the extreme > > not to give chance > > to American kids to interview J.K.Rowling? I mean > > children from > > practically, every other country are included in > her > > guest-list as cub > > reporters but why is that opportunity denied to > > American kids alone? > > After all, America as one statistic put it, > accounts > > for 55% of all > > books sold? > > Bye > > Adi > > > So you can say she's anti-italian, anti-spanish, > anti-japanesse, etc etc because none on them (and > most > other countries in the world) have been on the books > or movies, or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but > aren't Emerson and Melissa (from Mugglenet and The > Leaky Cauldron) from the USA and they're both going > to > interview he on Saturday; so is Steve (from Lexicon) > and Jo has said she loves the site. So > anti-American? > I don't think so. > > IMO of course > > Juli > Aol: jlnbtr > Yahoo: jlnbtr > MSN: julibotero at msn.com > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the > tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 13 03:34:07 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 03:34:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132588 The 'beyond the Veil and Return' is not unprecedanted in mythology, and heroic myths in general are about a series of deaths and rebirths of the hero; although, mostly metaphorical. When Harry entered Hogwarts, that was a metaphorical death and rebirth. Also, when he saved the Stone, or confronted Voldemort in the graveyard. Harry can never be the same after these experiences; who he was died, and he is now who he has become by the experience. So, there is a cadre of us late night HP obssessives who do support a journey beyond the Veil and of course, back again. adi: To follow on that point of mythology. It's not a circle of births or deaths that has heroes journey to the netherworld. Most big epics have this journey to the other side. Both Odyesseus and Aeneas made such journeys. But that journey is usually to know about a prophecy that's usually hidden on the other side. The prophecy is about what's the ultimate end of the hero will be, what's he is destined to do. The hero also meets an ancestor during this journey, somebody who is dead. And also, the hero accomplishes all these things with the help of a sybil, a prophetess ( she was even called Deiphobe in Aeneid which means is similar to meaning as Luna). In spite of all the magic, JKR is a realist and she has aptly reduced the netherworld fantasy to an ordinary veil and an underground ministry. The veil and the underground parallel the underworld journeys of the other myths. Harry already has his prophecy and lost his parent-like figure to that world and had a sybil-like figure Luna lead him there. So , I don't think JKR will traverse that road again and give some icky descriptions of netherworld anymore because that would mean repeating the territory. We may meet Sirius again but a journey through the veil is ruled out unless the final confrontation takes place there. From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 13 04:06:31 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER: Amazon's Book Cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713040631.54998.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132589 mumweasley7 wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E Does anyone think that Harry is wearing the ring that Sirius retrieved from Kreacher and tossed in the discard bag? The picture can be viewed on Mugglenet. Shalimar I took a look at the picture. It does look as if Harry is wearing a ring on his forefinger. If so, I would guess this to be the ring we see on the cover from the UK edition of HBP. It's also quite possible that it is the retrieved ring. This would fit as the ring pictured on the cover is apparently cracked and looks like it has a crest on it. What I would like to know is why the official released bookcover DOESN'T show a ring on Harry's finger! Is it possible that what we see as a ring is a reflection? I hope not. Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 04:27:38 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 2 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713042739.54393.qmail@web54702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132590 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Charlie Weasley :) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) If the Old lion guy is the clue then I guess it's Godric..but who knows really...I still don't think it is him! 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Ummm that her and Lupin had a fling..I don't know. LOL 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Probably Kingsley :) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione I supposse I really don't know about this one. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, he has to because Harry will be an auror :) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Um I hope for Neville's sake no :). 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? six?? Just enough to get into all the classes he needs I can't remember exactly..LOL Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 04:25:29 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:25:29 -0000 Subject: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > > This open the opportunity for me to make a general comment on the > > nature of the Sorting Hat. Others have speculated that the Sorting > Hat > > gives great weight to what the student wants, or what the student > > asks for. Of course, I will immediately point out that Harry never > > asked for Gryffindor, he simply said 'not Slytherin'. > > > > Chys: > > You know, your decision making can affect your future and change who > you are or are to become. The person you are 6 months from now is > completely different from the person you were 6 months ago, based on > your decisions and how you react to the decisions of others, so > asking a student their opinion is a good way to guess what may > happen, in that potential. > > > Angie again: Few of us see ourselves as others do, but who sees us as we really are? The Sorting Hat, apparently. It says something like there is nothing in your head that it can't see -- that to me says the SH sees potential or undeveloped traits as well as those that are developed (Neville's bravery is a prime example). Maybe the SH does consider a student's preference, but that cannot be the decisive factor. Wonder if the Sorting Hat takes into consideration the other students it has placed during a given Sorting -- a dynamic or relative consideration? Draco had already been placed in Slytherin before Harry was placed in Gryffindor. I've always been bothered that Harry believed that the SH "considered" putting him in Slytherin. Harry mentioned Slytherin first, not the SH. If Harry hadn't asked "not Slytherin", the SH may very well have just said, "Gryffindor." We'll never know (and yes, I do understand why that scene was so necessary for COS). From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 04:44:41 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:44:41 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132592 Arthur to Molly: "Molly, dear, as the leader of this family, I would appreciate it if you would stop dressing me down." Molly to Arthur: "Sorry, dear. It won't happen again." Ron to Hermione: "You really remind me of my mother." Ron to Fred and George: "Obviously, you two were holding me back. Now that you two gits are gone, boy, are things are gonna change! It's Ron-time, baby!" Harry to Molly and Arthur: "Thank you for treating me like family; it means the world to me. Since you like me so much, may I date your daughter?" Angie From tinglinger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 05:37:16 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:37:16 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest - Off Limit Spoiler Notice In-Reply-To: <410-220057212221837937@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132593 Chancie predictions stating that the "HBP will end in a cliff hanger", will be of no value due to the comments made by Jim Dale this morning on the "Today Show". tinglinger is this true for predictions stating such that were made 2 weeks ago ? From brossiter at dc.rr.com Wed Jul 13 04:29:27 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (Britt) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:29:27 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132594 Forgive me if this has been discussed before (I couldn't find it), buta few posters recently have discussed the potential for a rat having been planted in the Order. This led me to think about Chapter 10 of PoA, and Gred and Forge's tale of how they had nicked the Maurauders' Map from Filch's office. That chapter has ALWAYS bothered me. Why, in a drawer full of "confiscated, but highly dangerous" objects - objects that they would no doubt find fascinating - would they home in on a folded up piece of old parchment? Not only that, but be able to noodle out how it works? Only three living people alive at the time knew how it worked (we're told Filch didn't know). One of those was locked in Azkaban, one was living in a location unknown ... and one was living in the Weasley household. Further, since Lupin himself apparently knew the map was hidden in Filch's office (remember where Harry's practice dementor/boggart came from in PoA), it had apparently languished in that drawer for a LONG time. Probably since the marauders' days at Hogwarts, which means Peter would presumably have known it was there, too. Sirius's theory in PoA was that Scabbers!Peter wanted to keep perfectly positioned to act when LV made his presence known. What better way to do that this than to have the map, which quite literally shows him where the action is at all times. Another reason he might have wanted access to the map was Mrs. Norris, of all things. Scabbers!Peter was Percy's rat before he was Ron's. Scabbers!Peter must have been distressed, upon arrival at Hogwarts, to find that foul cat prowling around. The map would have helped Scabbers!Peter to avoid the cat while still having access to the rest of the castle, and the conversations regarding LV that he wished to overhear. Remember, in PoA/10, we're explicitly told that Mrs. Norris shows up on the map. The next Weasley to make an appearance at Hogwarts were the twins, and lo and behold, one of the first thing they do is snag the map from Filch. The timing of the twins' giving of the map to HP is also suspicious. Note that this was when Scabbers!Peter was being chased all over the castle by Crookshanks, and likely had no time to spend perusing a map. Maybe the twins gave it to Harry at this time figuring Scabbers!Peter no longer had any use for it. Maybe they felt guilty about helping a scumbag like Scabbers!Peter and decided to make amends. Or maybe they were trying to lure Harry out of the castle. Fred and George have been morally ambiguous during the entire series. They've thought nothing of urging Harry (and Ron, and anyone else within earshot) to engage in all manner of dangerous, potentially life-threatening activities. Please understand that I HATE this theory - I don't want to think of what horrible bargain Gred and Forge might have struck with Scabbers!Peter in exchange for retrieving the map from Filch's office. (Maybe Scabbers!Peter gave the twins access to a time turner, which would explain their mysterious winning bet in GoF.) But I can't think of any other way the twins could have known where the map was, WHAT it was, and how to use it, other than getting this information directly from the filthy rat. And THAT could not have happened unless the rat had made his true nature known to the twins. As far as I can tell, nowhere in the books has JKR ever indicated the twins' awareness, or lack thereof, of Peter Pettigrew's true nature. They, of course, know of Sirius's innocence, having shared a house with him, but HRH never once mentioned the Wormtail business in the twins' presence, as far as I've been able to see. So, maybe it's the twins that are evil. Or just greedy (but we already knew that). And if it is the twins who are the REAL rats, then maybe Wormtail's life-debt to Harry will be repaid by ratting them out... PLEASE, someone, tell me I'm full of it. I like Fred & George, but I also can't explain away any of the above. brossiter From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 07:25:28 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:25:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > The 'beyond the Veil and Return' is not unprecedanted in mythology, > and heroic myths in general are about a series of deaths and > rebirths of the hero; > ... > adi: > ...edited... > > In spite of all the magic, JKR is a realist and she has aptly > reduced the netherworld fantasy to an ordinary veil and an > underground ministry. The veil and the underground parallel the > underworld journeys of the other myths. Harry already has his > prophecy and lost his parent-like figure to that world and had a > sybil-like figure Luna lead him there. So , I don't think JKR will > traverse that road again and give some icky descriptions of > netherworld anymore because that would mean repeating the territory. > > We may meet Sirius again but a journey through the veil is > ruled out unless the final confrontation takes place there. bboyminn: Interesting point about the Veil already being used, but JKR sometimes slips something in, then seems to resolve it, only to have it appear again. Although, I admit, it's usually something small. So, we must ask, is the presence of the Veil in the last story, the whole story of the Veil relative to Harry, or is it just the teaser? I say a teaser. Steve/bboyminn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 08:15:14 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:15:14 -0000 Subject: JK Rowling, an anti-American? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132597 Adi wrote: "It's one thing not to include American characters in the books(no problems with Bulgarian or French)" Del replies: 1. The Tri-Wizard Tournament is a competition between the three biggest *European* schools. That's the very definition of the TWT. It's not a world competition, it doesn't include *any* school from *any* other continent: it's a *European* Tournament. 2. If JKR did have a soft spot for France or Bulgaria or even for all of Europe (not saying she does, as I don't know), what would be wrong with that? Not being pro-American is definitely not the same as being anti-American, you know. 3. Be careful in your wording please: you almost make it sound like it's abnormal to feature Bulgarian or French characters while not featuring American characters, or like if a British author is going to feature foreign characters then they should necessarily choose American ones over any others. As a French person married to a Slavic one, I feel almost insulted... Adi wrote: "or to disallow any American actors from acting in the movies not even as extras (no problems with American producers producing the movies and American money can funding them )," Del replies: 1. Would you rather she'd refused to let any non-Brits produce the movies? 2. I don't see why there *should* be *any* American actor in a movie taking place in a British setting, and shot in the UK if I'm not mistaken : there are *way enough* British actors to play all the parts. 3. It's not like JKR forced the Americans to produce the movies: they *chose* to. 4. Technically, it's not even "American money": it's *private* money. I don't think (but I could be wrong, of course) that any public money from the American tax-payers went into the funding of the movies. Adi wrote: "but isn't it going to the extreme not to give chance to American kids to interview J.K.Rowling? I mean children from practically, every other country are included in her guest-list as cub reporters but why is that opportunity denied to American kids alone? After all, America as one statistic put it, accounts for 55% of all books sold? " Del replies: So? JKR is *freely offering* a gift to some kids, so *why on Earth* should she be restricted by statistics??? She's free to set her own rules (*IF* she has indeed set those rules, which I have not heard of). And finally, I'd like to point out that it's the American publishers who set America apart first by "translating" JKR's books into "American"... Del From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 08:27:52 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:52 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132598 aussie / norbertsmummy wrote: The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. ...edit... Many fans looked forward to JKR revealing Mrs Figg as a powerful OOTP member, adept in the DADA.... Kemper: Mrs. Figg is fascinating. She recognized a Dementor attack, so what happened the last time she saw one? She immediately understands the repercussions of Harry's use of Magic. She testifies at the trial and is looked down upon because of her lack of magic by more than a few witches and wizards in the jury box. And she, too, knows she doesn't weild the power of anyone in the wizarding world, and some of them bare ill-intent on Harry. But it is Mrs. Figg who is the first defense against those who would ever go after Harry. That's hella bad ass. And what about Mr. Figg? Who was he? Was he a Squib, a Wizard, or a Muggle? Was he a member of the Order? I think so, regardless of his magical status. What happend to him? Was he murdered because he heard, saw, knew something? Was he murdered for whom he was: Squib/Muggle? Was he a pure-blood, killed for whom he loved: a Squib? Kemper From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 08:31:28 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:31:28 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132599 Angie: > Harry to Molly and Arthur: > > "Thank you for treating me like family; it means the world to me. > Since you like me so much, may I date your daughter?" Molly to Harry and Arthur: "Oh, dear, where are we going to get a caterer before school starts? And a florist - where should we have the reception? The school rents out the Great Hall for weddings in the summer..." IOW, I don't think they'd exactly mind... From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 13 10:20:59 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:20:59 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We > would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out > Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. > > JKR nurtured that character, alluded to , titillated us , with just > enough information to deliver a great punch line that Mrs Figg was > really an animagus and the local support and protection for Harry in > his early years. > > Many fans looked forward to JKR revealing Mrs Figg as a powerful > OOTP member, adept in the DADA. There was only one problem I can see > that could strip Figg of her powers ? we guessed the punch-line. > > You know when you share tall tales around camp-fires? The story > teller gets to the climax and says, "And you know what happened next > ?" ?And then someone guess the conclusion ? the story teller > says, "No, that's not what happens. Actually, " and then stalls > for time while he tries to come up with an alternative result. > > Jo, face it. Someone somewhere will pick many of the plots and > surprises. Stay true to the story you want to tell, because even if > we guess a line of thought, a line is just ONE dimension. You fill > the characters out to be 3 dimensional (or 4 dimensional if time > turners are used). > > There are many characters that have been developed throughout the > first 5 (now 6) books. Don't let others steal your preferred plots > and twists. That includes those away from Hogwarts:- > > Bill; Charlie; Percy; Fred & George; Norbert; Grindalwald; Tonks; > Moody; Rosemerta; Fleur; Viktor; Mde. Maxime; flying carpets; ... > (anyone else care to add to that list? > > I'd be disappointed if Book #7 last chapter was the only thing true > to Jo's prefered story ... Have fun with those characters you > planted somewhere. Don't just bury them under fertilizer. > aussie / norbertsmummy Hickengruendler: Most fans also guessed, that Voldemort tried to kill Harry because of Trelawney's prophecy. And still JKR didn't change it. And I would say the reason why Voldemort tried to kill Harry is much more important to the overall plot than the idendity of Mrs Figg. That, plus there were quite a few theories before OotP, that Mrs Figg was indeed a Squib. In fact, I even thought JKR confirmed this before the release of book 5. While reading book 5 I was not the least bit surprised that Mrs Figg was a Squib, because this information wasn't knew to me at all. I totally started reading the book knowing that she's a Squib. It was only later that I realised that JKR never seemed to have said this, or that at least I couldn't find the quote, and that it just seemed to have been a fan-theory that I believed which turned out to be true by accident. But that does prove that this theory existed. Also, with all respect, I think in your post some of the readers' prejudices shine through. Obviously it are not only some wizards, who think that Squibs are less worthy than wizards, some among the readers seem to have the opinion as well. IMHO, Mrs Figg being a Squib who has an eye on Harry, makes her much more interesting and strong character, than her being some powerful witch who is a match for the Death Eaters. She is pretty much helpless against magical dangers, and still is there to do her best. I find this very admirable. Plus, it fits Dumbledore's way to give everyone a second chance. Hickengruendler From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 10:30:11 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:30:11 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132601 > aussie: > The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. > Kemper: > Mrs. Figg is fascinating. She recognized a Dementor attack, so what happened the last time she saw one? She immediately understands the repercussions of Harry's use of Magic. She testifies at the trial and is looked down upon because of her lack of magic by more than a few witches and wizards in the jury box. And she, too, knows she doesn't weild the power of anyone in the wizarding world, and some of them bare ill-intent on Harry. But it is Mrs. Figg who is the first defense against those who would ever go after Harry. That's hella bad ass. Amiable Dorsai: She's also an illustration of the limitations on Dumbledore. After the first book, he seemed all-powerful--by OotP, we learn he's holding together the resistance to the Darkness with baling wire and spellotape. He's powerful magically, yes, but his political power is very limited. And political power is crucial. Early on, I disliked Dumbledore for his apparent mistreatment of Harry--how could he leave the poor kid with the Dursleys? By the end of OotP, I realized that he's been juggling eggs trying to keep the whole thing together until Harry was ready to face his destiny. Amiable Dorsai From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 11:45:32 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:45:32 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132602 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley + Luna Lovegood 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Salazar Slytherin 3. What is Lily's big secret? Not revealed till book 7 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Madeye Moody (the real thing) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Lucius Malfoy 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1) Tonks is a spy for the order and has infiltrated the DE's using her special skills as metamorphmagus. 2) It turns out Snape was never a true DE - he joined the DE's in the first place on Dumbledore's orders. 3) Neville, with help from Hermione, finds a cure for his parents. 4) Lupin was at GH on the night of the Potter-killings. 5) We find out that it was someone else than Bellatrix who sent Sirius through the veil. Inge From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 12:42:13 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:42:13 -0000 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132604 Angie wrote: Harry to Molly and Arthur: "Thank you for treating me like family; it means the world to me. Since you like me so much, may I date your daughter?" Jim wrote: Molly to Harry and Arthur: "Oh, dear, where are we going to get a caterer before school starts? And a florist - where should we have the reception? The school rents out the Great Hall for weddings in the summer..." IOW, I don't think they'd exactly mind... vmonte wrote: Harry to Ginny: "Um, um...Ginny? I was wondering if you would a um..." Ginny: "You idiot! Kiss me!" From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 12:42:31 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:42:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132605 > > bboyminn: > > I'm convinced that Sirius will come back to the story-- snip some things of the veil. > In addition to this, we have memories, fresh and/or from a pensieve, > and flashbacks. > > Further - > > JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, > March 4, 2004 > > Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( > > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do > it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep > reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. > > That implies that there is more to Sirius's story; more will be > revealed in future books. Finwitch: Well, of course Sirius will be back - in some form or other. He can't come back to life, true - but - it's entirely possible that he didn't really die. What happened after Sirius seemed to go behind the Veil (some have reasoned that the second light could of come from Lupin who might have helped to frame Sirius' death) was: 1) Harry's able to resist Voldemort's possession because of his feelings for Sirius. These emotions would not have been so strong as they were when he believed Sirius had just died. Had he not seen it himself, he would have been in denial (which he was, in Remus' arms) for too long. Without Harry's Occlumency skills, this was the ONLY thing to do in order to save Harry. Enough for Harry to need believe Sirius' death - and Sirius would sacrifice himself if need be - Sirius' death need not be real, though. 2) Dumbledore had to believe Sirius dead in order to tell Harry 'everything'. (and all other things going on in his office for that matter). Fooling Harry to believe Sirius was dead would be tricky in itself, but Dumbledore? 3) Minister of Magic (and possibly some other members of the Ministry, visible or not), Cornelius Fudge who was with the party hauling Sirius off, witnessing Sirius fight Death Eaters (his own cousin) AND die in doing so... well, they just MIGHT be able to *finally* clear Sirius' name. (Well, if it wasn't fake death, Harry's going to bitter about how useless to Sirius that is...) Getting all these, was that all but Remus Lupin had to believe Sirius dead. (I'm convinced that Remus is an Occlumens AND a Legilimens so he wouldn't let it out... and even Dumbledore cannot interrogate old Moony during Full Moon... how close to Full Moon was that event in there? Remus could have cast Fidelius Charm, with himself as the Secret Keeper -- or something like that, disguising that Sirius is ALIVE and well. Of course that had to happen by the Veil to be credible, and to gain their goal concerning Dumbledore and the Ministry...) Reason for Sirius to be *truly* dead, rather than just fake it with Moony: inheritance that will be important issue in HBP; that Harry's considered of age a year early because both his parents AND his godfather are dead - in addition to passing enough of his OWLs and a hero again -- or perhaps Sirius declares him so in his will or whatever... You know, I'd just really have liked Sirius to get cleared before dying - if this death was real, that's what bothers me most... Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 13:02:37 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:02:37 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Britt" wrote: > > PLEASE, someone, tell me I'm full of it. I like Fred & George, but I > also can't explain away any of the above. If they're villians, they're remarkably ineffective villians. They could have bumped off Harry any number of times, and failed to do so. They could have revealed the DA anytime, and failed to do so. They could have delivered Harry to Voldy at the World Cup. They failed to do so. They're not the bad guys. Amiable Dorsai From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:07:57 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:07:57 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132607 > > > aussie: > > > The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We > > > would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out > > > Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. > > > > Kemper: > > Mrs. Figg is fascinating. She recognized a Dementor attack... > > She testifies at the trial and is looked down upon because > > of her lack of magic... And she, too, knows she doesn't wield the > > power of anyone in the wizarding world... But it is Mrs. Figg who > > is the first defense against those who would ever go after Harry. > > Amiable Dorsai: > She's also an illustration of the limitations on Dumbledore. John K: Don't forget, Mrs. Figg also gave us a really big insight into the Ministry of Magic, and into Dumbledore's relationship with them, too: "We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging other than Harry Potter," said Madam Bones at once. "That situation has always been closely monitored, given... given past events." (OP8) This statement is LOADED. -What was Madam Bones about to say before using 'past events' instead? -Why was the Ministry tracking Harry? They didn't know about the prophecy, did they?. Was it just because he had defeated Voldemort? Did Dumbledore tell them something? We had no real indication that Harry was being treated as special by the Ministry until they believed Sirius Black was after him, in PA - but this implies he's been important to them ever since he defeated Voldemort. Why? -It makes total sense now, but why did Dumbledore feel a need to position a guard in Harry's neighborhood that the Ministry couldn't track (why Mrs. Figg HAD to be a squib) FIFTEEN YEARS AGO? Was his relatinoship with the Ministry always suspsect? Did he worry it might become so? And, seperately: -Why wasn't Mrs. Figg in Moody's picture of the Order? We know from GF she was part of the 'old crowd.' Was she some sort of spy, using her Squibness and people's ignorance and prejudice to her advantage? I absolutely loved what Mrs. Figg did for the plotline in OP, and I'm fascinated in what her story might be. And her line, "Don't put it away, idiot boy! What if there are more of them around? Oh, I'm going to /kill/ Mundungus Fletcher!" is one of the classics of the series. John K From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 13:24:20 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:24:20 -0000 Subject: O.W.L.s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132608 Jo: > I suspect JKR has chosen the Scottish approach because it allows > Harry to continue more subject classes, and thus expand his (our) > exposure to magic in his last two years at school. And of course, > Hogwarts is in Scotland! Finwitch: Well, of course she has. She *does* have a teacher's decree in Scotland, after all - she was still writing the first Harry Potter as a hobby when she was doing her studies -- you bet it influenced something... But - it appears to me that 12 is the number of subjects we know of... And yes, makes me wonder if Percy also had a Timeturner, but Hermione, by dropping two classes, Muggle Studies and Divination, was able to have a normal time-table again. Even so, Hermione *could* ace Muggle Studies... and possibly even Divination. But she was not taking either OWL or was she? Not Divination, anyway. They could well have done the exam during the weekend between the other exams - by spending a day in the Muggle World and if no Muggle notices anything, you pass. Something Percy would of heard from his Dad, I suppose -- as much as we find his lack of knowledge, I think he did make a pass for that OWL. If there even WAS one to gain when he was attending Hogwarts... Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 13:27:23 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:27:23 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations In-Reply-To: <006301c58730$6332f0f0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132609 Sherry Gomes: > First of all, what was with Molly at Grimauld place? ...Was she that jealous of the bond between Harry and Sirius? >Sirius. I know we debate this regularly on the list, but reading OOTP immediately after reading GOF and POA before that, I am convinced something not quite right was happening with Sirius during OOTP. Amiable Dorsai: Molly was near the end of her rope, I think. She's lost weight (from stress, presumably) and she can't even handle a boggart. Her reaction to the boggart, tells the tale: she's terrified that some or all of her family are going to die--to her credit, she includes Harry and Hermione in her fears. I think jealousy may play a part in her feelings about Sirius, but I'm also sure there's more than that. Sirius, after all, broke her youngest son's leg once. His actions could have led to Ron's being bitten by a werewolf or Kissed by a Dementor. And now Voldemort, the bastard who killed her brothers, is back. She knows her sons, she knows Harry, and she knows they'll be in the thick of it if they can. She wants to protect her children, she desperately wants to keep them out of it... And there's Sirius, egging them on. And I think she shared your feeling that there was something not quite right about Sirius. Amiable Dorsai From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 13 13:38:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:38:42 -0000 Subject: Molly, Snape and Sirius (was Re: OOTP observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132610 > > Amiable Dorsai: > I think jealousy may play a part in her feelings about Sirius, but I'm > also sure there's more than that. Sirius, after all, broke her > youngest son's leg once. His actions could have led to Ron's being > bitten by a werewolf or Kissed by a Dementor. snip > And I think she shared your feeling that there was something not quite > right about Sirius. > Potioncat: And something I've never put together before. Molly berates Sirius, and offers no "respect" for him. On the other hand, she seems to have respect for Professor Snape, to the point of re-inforcing his title. Snape has no respect for Sirius either. Do you suppose Molly and Severus suspect something? I know Snape and Black have a history, but it's suddenly very interesting to see that Molly and Snape treat Black in a similar fashion. From MsLeneLarsen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 12:17:04 2005 From: MsLeneLarsen at hotmail.com (lene_looney_larsen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:17:04 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132611 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore! > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? DUmbledore > 3. What is Lily's big secret? > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Severus Snape > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny weasley > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy weasley > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A new Item, used for communication with people who are dead > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes, snape can't scare him! > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, Snape CAN scare him > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1) Tonks has taken Barty Crouch jr. place as a death eater, and is now working as a spy for the order. 2) Harry gets a second chance of killing Bellatrix Lestrange, and does so. 3) Harry finds a way to work the two way mirror. 4) Harry, Ron and Hermione become official members of the order. 5) Dumbledore is killed by Voldemort. He sacrifies himself in order to save Harry. Lene From nobradors at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:45:26 2005 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:45:26 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132612 :: delurking:: Britt wrote: Why, in a drawer full of "confiscated, but highly dangerous" objects - objects that (the twins) would no doubt find fascinating - would they home in on a folded up piece of old parchment? Not only that, but be able to noodle out how it works? POA: "Well, what would you've done?" said Fred. "George caused a diversion by dropping another Dungbomb, I whipped the drawer open, and grabbed --this." >From what the book says, they grabbed the map in a hurried, unthought of action. What is more probable, even if it's not specifically told, is the twins grabbed everything they could put their hands onto in those moments of confusion, map included. As for how to work it out, well for once we know they're smart enough to create their own magical objects/snacks (OT: I would pay to see those 2 in Snape's class, as I believe they must be skilled at potions to come up with the snacks), and we know the map, while unrevealed, reacts to the attempts to open it by back-talking, as it did with Snape. So in trying, and using the map's replies to figure out what it really was and how to make it work, they must found the way. On a personal note I don't believe the "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good" has to be worded exactly like that for the map to work, but that any phrase of the same significance and, what's most important, said with the intention of mischief, would make the map work, too. Britt: > Further, since Lupin himself apparently knew the map was hidden >in Filch's office (remember where Harry's practice dementor/boggart >came from in PoA), it had apparently languished in that drawer for >a LONG time. Probably since the marauders' days at Hogwarts, which >means Peter would presumably have known it was there, too. Of course Lupin knows where the map was hidden - originally. Most probably Filch confiscated it from MWPP, so the 4 of them nkew it must be in Filch's office. Why they didn't get it back, we can only fathom, but either a) they tried and failed b) it was on the last stages of 7th year so it wasn't worth the risk as they, as the twins, already knew all the passages by heart. I think, however, that he didn't expect it to have remained so many years in that place, and was glad to see it back. Britt: > Sirius's theory in PoA was that Scabbers!Peter wanted to keep > perfectly positioned to act when LV made his presence known. What > better way to do that this than to have the map, which quite > literally shows him where the action is at all times. > Scabbers!Peter was Percy's rat before he was Ron's. > The next Weasley to make an appearance at Hogwarts were the twins, and lo and behold, one of the first thing they do is snag the map from Filch. WE know in POA Scabbers has been in the Burrow for 12 years, i.e. he got there when Ron was 1. That means the twins were 2 (no pun intended)and Percy was 5. Little could Peter plan to get the map then - in fact I believe he, as teh other marauders, would think it lost until the twins found it. Besides, from what we've seen, they couldn't care less about Scabbers, and Percy would not want them around the rat either, so I find it highly unlikely Scabbers had taken any part whatsoever in the re-discovery of the map. If anything, he must have been happy to know it was still around. Even more, I don't even believe Pettigrew ever took human form once since he arrived in the Weasley's household until the Shrieking Shack episode. Britt: > The timing of the twins' giving of the map to HP is also suspicious. Note that this was when Scabbers!Peter was being chased all over the castle by Crookshanks, Or maybe they were trying to lure Harry out of the castle. Of course they are trying to lure Harry out of the castle! But that's because they know Harry's miserable by not being allowed to go to Hogsmeade, and they, as Harry, don't think it's really that dangerous to walk around out of bounds even with Black on the loose and Dementors gliding around. Britt: > Fred and George have been morally ambiguous during the entire series. I believe you are wrong here. I don't think they're morally ambiguous. They're heavy pranksters, that's true, but they know what lines not to cross. They don't play pranks on people like Neville, for instance (I'm sure Neville would be very affected by them, and I'm also sure Neville would be heavily bullied had he gone to a muggle school). Neither do they joke about Percy around Molly, and they show truly worried for Ginny in CS and Arthur in OP... Moreover, they're *liked* by most people, so that gives you a good clue that, while being troublemakers, their hearts must be in the right place. Britt: > They've thought nothing of urging Harry (and Ron, and anyone else > within earshot) to engage in all manner of dangerous, potentially > life-threatening activities. Both the twins and HRH have given huge evidence of being perfectly capable to engage in dangerous, life-threatening activities all by themselves. Britt: >As far as I can tell, nowhere in the books has JKR ever indicated >the twins' awareness, or lack thereof, of Peter Pettigrew's true >nature. They, of course, know of Sirius's innocence, having shared >a house with him, but HRH never once mentioned the Wormtail >business in the twins' presence, as far as I've been able to see. Well, we can't witness ALL that goes on in the HP universe, can we? The mere fact they acknowledge Sirius's innocence implies their aknowledgement of Scabbers!Peter, as both facts are tightly related. We never see Harry or Ron tell Hermione of Umbridge's torture quill, but when Harry mentions it in breakfast, Hermione does not react, which means she knew it beforehand. Britt: > So, maybe it's the twins that are evil. PLEASE, someone, tell me I'm full of it. I am telling you so. I find this a too far-fetched, twisted theory. I also believe JKR likes the twins too much to make them evil. If she chooses someone of the good side to turn evil, I think it'd be someone more endearing than fun. Nuri From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 13 12:39:08 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:39:08 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132613 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A new character 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big secret, just something about her 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. The old lion guy JRK decribed on her site will be potions teacher 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? How about feelings for Luna. Don't see a big romantic thing going on 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shackleford 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I don't think it is a pensieve. It is located in the COS. Harry and DD are mixing a potion in it 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 5 Predictions (0-10 points each): Fudge will be shown to be ESE or a DE Pansy Parkinson will be the good Slytherin Draco will leave Hogwarts Fran From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 13 14:41:41 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:41:41 -0000 Subject: FILK: A Thundering Monster I Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132614 If Richard Wagner could have singing dragons, why can't we? Here's a first-ever solo, for the Hungarian Horntail that Harry flew against in GoF. "Fafner" is the afore-mentioned singing Wagnerian dragon in the opera Siegfried (he was originally a giant, but that's another story). "Pern" refers the setting of Anne McCaffrey's novels of the lovable, super-intellegent and gallant dragons and their riders. A Thundering Monster I To the tune of A Wandering Minstrel I, from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/song02.html Dedicated to annemehr THE SCENE: The Dragon enclosure of GoF, Chap .18. The HUNGARIAN HORNTAIL looks forward to her appearance in the First Task of the Triwizard Tournament. The other three dragons function as a back-up CHORUS (If three singers seems to small a number for a chorus, just remember that these are dragons we're taking about here, and they sing *really* loud). HORNTAIL: A thundering monster I A thing that shreds and scratches, Whose breath can light up matches And makes its victims fry My horn?d tail is long, My fires far are ranging When in battle exchanging A ton of sulfur strong, A ton of sulfur strong. Are you a Tournamental dude? I'll fly at you, Tomorrow! On nests of concrete eggs I'll brood, I'll sit and stew Tomorrow, morrow. Once you endure my burn You quickly might discern `Twas not on planet Pern Where up I grew. Bizarro, `zarro! For when idiotic sport events are offered This vitriolic dragon may decide To run o'er the country's boundaries just like Fafner And indulge herself in Budapest-icide! Their challengers, whether they're slow or hasty Ever fail - for they are merely human rubes But although they may be dumb, they are so tasty They egg me on to waltz, to waltz the Blue Danube! CHORUS Although they may be dumb, they are so tasty They egg her on to waltz, to waltz the Blue Danube! HORNTAIL: And when they call for the Task you will see My neck that swivels round With a roar or more, I will guard my eggs I'll escape their traps and a-break their legs And pound `em into the ground! CHORUS A roar or more! She'll pound `em into the ground! HORNTAIL: To fire some flame at a Firebolt This dragon does with panache `Cause my hungriest hank'ring ain't for goat But human flesh Delicious and fresh Is a banquet I will bolt, roar more! It's a genuine goulash. HORNTAIL & CHORUS Then start the tourney ? off we go As we sizzle in this compound With a roar for more You can't tell us "whoa!" We'll pound `em into the ground! HORNTAIL A thundering monster I, A thing that shreds and scratches Whose breath can light up matches And make its victims fry, victims fry .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 18 new filks) From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 14:50:26 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:50:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Prediction Contest - Off Limit Spoiler Notice Message-ID: <410-220057313145026734@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132615 > Chancie > predictions stating that the "HBP will end in a cliff hanger", will > be of no value due to the comments made by Jim Dale this morning on > the "Today Show". > > > tinglinger > is this true for predictions stating such that were made 2 weeks ago ? > Chancie: No, it does not, if a prediction is made before an announcement is made, then you receive full credit if it is proven true in HBP. Predictions are only made of no value after the info is released by either, JKR, a Publisher, or someone known to have inside information at to the happenings in HBP. This includes previous quotes, any information that can be directly linked from the viewing of any of the HBP covers, or anything that has been stated as fact for the up coming book. Chancie~Minion in Charge of Spoilers From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 14:53:34 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:53:34 -0000 Subject: JK Rowling, an anti-American? In-Reply-To: <32025905071220265ae5a33c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scarah wrote: > theadimail: > to disallow any American actors from acting in the movies not even as extras > > Sarah: > > Griphook and Susan Bones were played by American actors. I think > there's one other but who it is escapes me at the moment. > Sarah It didn't hurt Susan Bones to be the daughter of the director, either. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 13 14:53:18 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:53:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius observations was Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Now, I'm NOT saying Snape is to blame for Sirius' death ? I'm not going that far ? but I will say that I understand Harry's angerat Snape. He recalled this interaction, and he knew Snape was baiting Sirius. It was pretty reprehensible behavior, imo. Pippin: This episode was *six months* before Sirius's death. Harry is being completely, (but understandably) unreasonable. Further, on reflection, I don't think Sirius's recklessness had anything to do with the reason he taunted Bella. Think about it militarily. There were lots of more valuable targets in the room: the two prophecy children, three aurors, and Albus Dumbledore himself. Bella could have chosen any one of them for her parting shot. Sirius drew her fire on purpose, IMO. I think Bella realized she'd been stupid; that's why she says, 'the animagus Black' when she's speaking to Voldemort later. She's trying to justify her actions by pointing out that Sirius was a powerful wizard, but she knows she blew it. Also noted on my re-reading of OOP; when Sirius accompanies Harry to King's Cross, he's not defying Dumbledore's orders just because he feels like it.The guard would have been one short without him since Podmore didn't show. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 13 15:31:09 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:31:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius observations was Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132618 SSSusan: > > Now, I'm NOT saying Snape is to blame for Sirius' death ? I'm > > not going that far ? but I will say that I understand Harry's > > anger at Snape. He recalled this interaction, and he knew Snape > > was baiting Sirius. It was pretty reprehensible behavior, imo. Pippin: > This episode was *six months* before Sirius's death. Harry is being > completely, (but understandably) unreasonable. Further, on > reflection, I don't think Sirius's recklessness had anything to do > with the reason he taunted Bella. Think about it militarily. There > were lots of more valuable targets in the room: the two prophecy > children, three aurors, and Albus Dumbledore himself. Bella could > have chosen any one of them for her parting shot. Sirius drew her > fire on purpose, IMO. SSSusan: Oh, I don't have any quibble with you re: Bella, Pippin. When I talked about Snape baiting Sirius, I didn't mean in terms of his going to take on *Bella* specifically. I meant in more general terms of his rushing out to DO something... ANYthing... to be useful to the Order -- e.g., to go to the MoM. As I said, *I* don't blame Snape for this action of Sirius'. DD is correct that Sirius is (was) an adult and should have been capable of not allowing Snape's words to push him into any inadvisable behavior simply out of trying to prove Snape wrong about his alleged cowardice. No, the point I intended to make (but did not do well), is that 15- year-old Harry, already despising Snape, already devastated by Sirius' death, understandably (imo) returned to this scene in his mind and latched onto it as a way to blame Snape for what happened. So, while I don't think the 12GP scene was the cause of Sirius' death -- i.e., that Snape "forced" Sirius into rushing recklessly off to the MoM -- I do still believe it was a very, very low point for Snape in terms of his *intentions* when he spoke to Sirius about worthlessness, uselessness & cowardice. Pippin: > Also noted on my re-reading of OOP; when Sirius accompanies Harry > to King's Cross, he's not defying Dumbledore's orders just because > he feels like it.The guard would have been one short without him > since Podmore didn't show. SSSusan: Aha! So Snape was wrong to "pick on" Sirius for that action. Thanks, Pippin. ;-) Pippin: > I think Bella realized she'd been stupid; that's why she says, 'the > animagus Black' when she's speaking to Voldemort later. She's trying > to justify her actions by pointing out that Sirius was a powerful > wizard, but she knows she blew it. SSSusan: Now this intrigues me, but I admit I don't get it. Can you say more about how she blew it and how referring to Sirius as "animagus" indicates her understanding that she blew it? Siriusly Snapey Susan From momy424 at aol.com Wed Jul 13 15:14:35 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:14:35 -0400 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: <8C755D4B6B042A0-BF4-14CBF@mblk-r33.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132619 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Professor McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Neville 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) During their 7th year she and Lupin dated and were engaged, but his "problem" was more than she could overcome 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 11 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Luna and Harry will return to the room with the veil and be able to "speak" to the voices 2. The bubblegum wrappers will have a major significance. Perhaps messages scrawled on them that are not realized. 3. Ron and Hermione will share their first kiss 4. The order will lose at least 4 top members in a fight with DE 5. All the DE's imprisoned at the end of OoTP will be freed as Dementors no longer are under MoM control momy424 From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 15:56:11 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:56:11 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132620 S P O I L E R A L E R T ! ! You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum. The artwork is breathtaking. I knew that was a fence, but I had thought maybe they were looking at the remnants of the Potter's old home place. Obviously not, because the cottage is intact (if somewhat delapidated). Wonder if the third person is the HBP or if the HBP is inside the cottage that looks to be deep inside a wooded glen -- perhaps Godric's Hollow? I mean, why have a fence in the middle of a forest? Looks like a shadow in the left front window -- is that the HBP? Most revealing to me is Harry's expression -- expectant, maybe even hopeful, but definitely not fearful or worried (for a freakin' change!) Is it the 16th yet???? Angie From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 15:38:14 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:38:14 -0000 Subject: Woops! Mistake regarding HP and the Catholic church... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132621 I recently posted that the Catholic church had expressed approval of the HP novels. Looks like I was wrong, that the press had mis- reported this, and that Pope Benedict actually disapproves of them. I disagree with his opinion, because he seems to think that fiction should reflect black and white when identifying good and evil, and that all authorities should be obeyed. I think the book is important in that it teaches children that those who seem good sometimes are not, and those who seem evil sometimes are not, and this is the way the real world is. It would be a mistake to teach children to completely trust those who seem trustable (um, priest scandal anyone?), and to teach them to only identify good and evil through the most obvious and superficial appearances. As for obeying authorities, the Church has, in the real world, supported uprisings against immoral authorities, so you would think that it is okay to teach kids to know that obeying authorities is not always the most moral or righteous thing to do. We also learn in the books that sometimes you can think you know more than an authority figure, but can be wrong, with disastrous consequences. For example, Harry ignores the instructions to learn occlumency, and it was a mistake. The books are very realistic regarding the stickiness of identifying good and evil, but there are also clearly dividing lines that are more important than superficial identifiers - thus Snape is on the good side despite being a nasty, petty jerk. I don't see how this harms children's ability to relate to God. Here is the link: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html - davenclaw ADMIN NOTE: Please be certain that any response to this post made to HPfGU remains *on*-topic by its pertinence to a discussion of the Harry Potter books themselves. Any post which does not do so should be posted at Off-Topic Chatter [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ ]. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 15:58:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:58:42 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > A > L > E > R > T > ! > ! > > You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum. The artwork is > breathtaking. > > I knew that was a fence, but I had thought maybe they were looking at > the remnants of the Potter's old home place. Obviously not, because > the cottage is intact (if somewhat delapidated). > > Wonder if the third person is the HBP or if the HBP is inside the > cottage that looks to be deep inside a wooded glen -- perhaps > Godric's Hollow? I mean, why have a fence in the middle of a forest? > > Looks like a shadow in the left front window -- is that the HBP? > > Most revealing to me is Harry's expression -- expectant, maybe even > hopeful, but definitely not fearful or worried (for a freakin' > change!) > > Is it the 16th yet???? > > Angie Angie again (probably breaking rules replying to my own post): I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's head and what looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. The mystery deepens . . . . From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 13 16:04:55 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:04:55 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Britt" wrote: > > > > > PLEASE, someone, tell me I'm full of it. I like Fred & George, but I > > also can't explain away any of the above. > > If they're villians, they're remarkably ineffective villians. They > could have bumped off Harry any number of times, and failed to do so. > I wrote a fic last year titled Fahrenheit 10/31 in which a conspiracy- minded film-maker asserts that the twins as well as Harry are ESE!, and that the alleged return of Voldemort was merely a ruse to allow the three to corner the highly lucrative jokeshop market. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/fahrenheit.htm The fic is highly tongue-in-cheek. But if the twins are actually evil, they could only be so in collusion with Harry. - CMC From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 16:21:50 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:21:50 -0000 Subject: baiting the bear Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132624 > Potioncat: > Not many. But I'm basing that on suspect intelligence. Black had no > idea that Snape had been a Death Eater. So it doesn't seem to be > anything he was generally suspected of. Finwitch: Unless Harry told Sirius about Snape's mark. Or did Sirius SEE it for himself when Snape showed it to Fudge? At any case, I think Sirius was within earshot when that occured. However, I think it's more Dumbledore's than Snape's but anyway... I ask you, why didn't Dumbledore tell Sirius about this Occlumency business himself before sending Snape to tell of it? It's not like Dumbledore lacked proper means to communicate with Sirius... he could have even paid a *visit* while Harry was at the hospital. (I *do* understand his avoiding Harry, but why not pay Sirius a visit while Harry's NOT at 12 GP to inform Harry's true guardian of this planned extra lesson?) Indeed, Sirius asks a good question there, why not Dumbledore - but that's a question for Dumbledore - and yes, even Dumbledore admitted that error... You know, I think something in 12 GP was getting them... Many of them act their worst in this book... Hermione saying 'saving-people-thing' - as if it's a bad thing. Her reaction of Thestrals, first to deny they exist - until they come up in class, and then wish she could see them... no, I don't think we should trust Hermione about how much of the Quibbler is true at all... Harry with his anger. Molly insulting Sirius Sirius with such recklessness, quick to anger etc. As of Snape -- his worst moment? I'd say it was more of what he did at 15 than anything else. Insulting someone who is standing up for him? But of that scene between Snape and Sirius - interesting that when Snape says sit down Sirius barks: "Don't give orders in MY territory" - when Lupin says sit down, Sirius simply obeys... Finwitch From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 13 16:22:49 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:22:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132625 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Angie wrote: >>You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum. The artwork is >>breathtaking. I knew that was a fence, but I had thought maybe they were looking at the remnants of the Potter's old home place. Obviously not, because the cottage is intact (if somewhat delapidated). >> >> > >I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's head and what >looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. The mystery >deepens . . . . > Yes, I just saw the knife! It's there in the previously-released front cover too. I'm that blind. Heh. I might wonder if it is GH indeed, but this is DD and Harry inside a pensieve memory, and they're going to watch 'that night' ...though that opens up all sorts of more questions, plus it seems an odd sort of place for Lily and James to be living "as muggles". I have a feeling that the fellow with the walking stick is a 'bad guy' at any rate... heather the buzzard From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 16:26:24 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:26:24 -0000 Subject: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" Maybe the SH does consider a student's preference, but that cannot > be the decisive factor. The person that convinces me that it's not the students' wishes that are paramount to the sorting hat when making its decisions is Hermione. She has said that the sorting hat considered putting her in Ravenclaw. I am pretty sure that the Hermione who turned up at Hogwarts on day 1, given a choice between the house where the cleverest students go and any other, would have taken Ravenclaw every time. Karen From mpachuta at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:58:09 2005 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:58:09 +0000 Subject: HBP contest predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132627 1. Who will be the most major character to die? --Two major characters will die. One will be a foreign wizard, or a wizard who lives out of the country preferably Madame Maxime, Fluer Delacour or Bill Weasley. The other is a magical creature a centaur maybe, a werewolf or house-elf more likely. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) --Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) --She was an unspeakable who worked inside that locked door at the Department of Mysteries (which is why she knew so much about the protection she gave Harry) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? --Im going with Old Lion Guy (Felix) on this one. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? --Harry will not have a romantic relationship due to his saving people complex (hes gonna be too worried about saving the world). If he has any kind of relationship with a girl, itll be very reminiscent of the one with Cho disastrous and wet, either from getting a swirlie from his lack of tact around women or because someone tossed a butterbeer over his head. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? --Id love to say Ludo Bagman, but I dont think the book is long enough to explain why anyone would name him Minister. So my final answer is: someone we dont know (Maybe this is what Felixs role is!) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? --A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? --Oh yeah. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? --Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? --Im gonna say seven. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. The new Minister of Magic will keep Fudge on his/her staff, or Fudge will be demoted in the Ministry, which leads to 2. Percy returns to the Burrow, embarrassed and seeking forgiveness, and wrings Harrys hand mournfully at least once at the same time, Fred and George become so successful that they move out of the Burrow. 3. Draco Malfoy will attempt to use an Unforgivable, and may even succeed in doing so. 4. Harry will visit the gravesite of his parents, grandparents, or some other relative. 5. Dumbledore will use the pensieve to combine his and Harrys memories of the night Lily and James died. Harry will not realize that he even had the memories, but this will explain to everyone what happened that night. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 16:55:06 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:55:06 -0000 Subject: JO, Why was Mrs Figg was a Non-Event? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132628 > > > aussie: > > > The biggest disappointment from the books so far was Mrs Figg. We > > > would have been more disappointed than her parents to find out > > > Harry's babysitter with the cats was only a squib. > > > > Kemper: > > Mrs. Figg is fascinating. She recognized a Dementor attack... > > She testifies at the trial and is looked down upon because > > of her lack of magic... And she, too, knows she doesn't wield the > > power of anyone in the wizarding world... But it is Mrs. Figg who > > is the first defense against those who would ever go after Harry. > > Amiable Dorsai: > She's also an illustration of the limitations on Dumbledore. > John K: ...edit... > "We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging other than Harry Potter," said Madam Bones at once. "That situation has always been closely monitored, given... given past events." (OP8) > This statement is LOADED. > -What was Madam Bones about to say before using 'past events' instead? Kemper now: I thought 'past events' referred to the Halloween that LV came to kill Harry. I think Madam Bones statement is loaded because it implies that only witches and wizards are worth considering which then implies that those not witches or wizards are not worth considering. Not that I think Madam Bones is outwardly prejudice, but I wonder how thrilled she would be if her child married a Squib or Muggle. Not that she wouldn't go to the wedding, but maybe she would be... disappointed. I also think Madam Bones is open to change should someone say 'hey, your words may be considered a bit of a slight to Squibs and these are the reasons why.' Back to John K: ...edit... > -It makes total sense now, but why did Dumbledore feel a need to position a guard in Harry's neighborhood that the Ministry couldn't track (why Mrs. Figg HAD to be a squib) FIFTEEN YEARS AGO? Was his relatinoship with the Ministry always suspsect? Did he worry it might become so? Kemper now: I think Dumbledore realized the Ministry's, a reflection of British Magical societys, veiw on Squibs, and he exploited their veiw to his advantage. Very strategic. Back to John again: > -Why wasn't Mrs. Figg in Moody's picture of the Order? We know from GF she was part of the 'old crowd.' Was she some sort of spy, using her Squibness and people's ignorance and prejudice to her advantage? Kemper now: I think that's exactly what she was doing. Again, another reason why she is so hella bad ass. > I absolutely loved what Mrs. Figg did for the plotline in OP, and I'm fascinated in what her story might be. And her line, "Don't put it away, idiot boy! What if there are more of them around? Oh, I'm going to /kill/ Mundungus Fletcher!" is one of the classics of the series. Kemper agrees! From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:10:50 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:10:50 -0000 Subject: Where do these stories start? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132629 I have just been solemnly informed that the first three books were written by Jo's ex husband and that he invented the name quidditch. Where do these extraordinary ideas come from? This is probably old stuff but I was still shocked that anyone should produce this as gospel. How am I going to answer this idiot? Sylvia From bdeitrick at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 02:59:53 2005 From: bdeitrick at gmail.com (Beata Wai Ieng Ho Deitrick) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:59:53 +0900 Subject: JK Rowling, an anti-American? + ADMIN NOTE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132630 Adi wrote: It's one thing not to include American characters in the books(no problems with Bulgarian or French) or to disallow any American actors from acting in the movies not even as extras (no problems with American producers producing the movies and American money can funding them ), but isn't it going to the extreme not to give chance to American kids to interview J.K.Rowling? Beata (me): I don't think that JK Rowling was trying to discriminate on purpose. There aren't American characters because Hogwarts is a British school. Rowling has said that she isn't going to throw in multi-cultural characters just for the sake of it because it doesn't make sense. Hogwarts is a British school and therefore will be dominately British. There were Bulgarian and French characters because they served a specific purpose and came from, specificalyl, Bulgaria and France. Even if we were to argue that JK Rowling could have put an American school it, one could also argue that she could have put a Chinese school in, or what about Africa. It's just that she picked Bulgaria and France (either with or without reason) and so that's how it ended up. ADMIN NOTE: This thread contains much which is OT for posting at HPfGU. Specifically, movie casting and whom JKR chooses to interview are topics which do not conform to our posting requirement which states: ?All posts to the main list should discuss the ?canon,? that is, the written works of JK Rowling.? Please remember that we have a sister list, Off-Topic Chatter [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ ], where such discussions are more than welcome. In fact, we have a movie sister list as well [http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ ]. We ask that all members consider the appropriate list for their comments before posting them. Shorty Elf, for the HPfGU Admin Team From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 13 17:17:35 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where do these stories start? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713171735.93223.qmail@web80109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132631 rochesteruponmedway wrote: >>I have just been solemnly informed that the first three books were written by Jo's ex husband and that he invented the name quidditch. >>Where do these extraordinary ideas come from? This is probably old stuff but I was still shocked that anyone should produce this as gospel. >>How am I going to answer this idiot? Sylvia Hi Sylvia! I would say this story is right up there with JKR's cousin stating he is the inspiration of Harry Potter, he looks like him, etc. Like JKR, I think you should consider the source and put it in the "rubbish bin". :-) Chris (flowerchild4) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 17:00:34 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:00:34 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Sorting (was Re: Neville, Seamus, and the Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" <> > The person that convinces me that it's not the students' wishes that > are paramount to the sorting hat when making its decisions is > Hermione. She has said that the sorting hat considered putting her in > Ravenclaw. I am pretty sure that the Hermione who turned up at > Hogwarts on day 1, given a choice between the house where the > cleverest students go and any other, would have taken Ravenclaw every > time. > > Karen I do not believe this is correct. On the train to Hogwarts Hermione tells Harry and Ron that she thinks Gryffindor is the best house, although Ravenclaw would not be too bad either (not exact quote, don't have my books at work). So if given a choice she would have chosed Gryffindor. Rolshan From jennagaylene at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:25:22 2005 From: jennagaylene at gmail.com (Jenna G. Tichon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:25:22 -0400 Subject: HBP Predictions Message-ID: <9c1a6cba05071309252ae3699a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132633 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Seamus Finnegan 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was captured and tortured by the DE 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A member of the OOTP we have not yet met 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? A new character in Ravenclaw who he'll meet because of Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes but not because he got the marks, Snape will be forced to let him in 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms, Transfiguration, Potions Predictions (0-10 points each): 1: Firenze will need to go speak to the Centaurs for Dumbledore at great personal risk 2: The chamber of secrets will be revisited 3: Harry will inherit 12 Grimmauld Place 4: Hermione will study to be an animagus 5: Fred and George will use their joke shop to help make equipment and tools for the OOTP -Jenna From smile33000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 16:42:53 2005 From: smile33000 at yahoo.com (Katie Kraase) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP predictions Message-ID: <20050713164254.54435.qmail@web53004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132634 **wiping off my old, defective crystal ball** 1.Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Neville 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She dated Lupin first and that she was an unspeakable 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks either in her natural form or disguised as someone else 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Very old pensieve owned by one of the Founders 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes- well see how much better he does without Snape breathing down his neck 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1.The Potters had another home besides Godrics Hollow and it will be given to Harry 2.Ron and Hermoine will finally get together only to realize that they really dont work well together as a couple (itll be a short lived romance) 3.Wormtail will repay his Wizards Debt and save Harry somehow right before Wormtail dies 4.one of the weasleys will die 5.Harry will be Quidditch captain Katie From swirskyr at rogers.com Wed Jul 13 17:00:56 2005 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (Rachel) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:00:56 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132635 P O T E N T I A L S P O I L E R S P A C E (BUT NOT OVERLY LIKELY AS I AM MAKING THIS UP AS I GO ALONG) Hi there, I know it has been forever since I posted, but I could not help myself after seeing that gorgeous artwork. Personally, I find it brings me right back to the groundskeeper who "snuck up" on LV. Didn;t we know that he had trouble walking and used a cane? We also know he lived in a small cottage on Riddle property (which might explain th snake on the door). Are we mabe going back to that night to try to change the course of history? Not sure what I would think of that as I am nt a huge fan of time-travel stories, but it would certainly be something else if it did not work! Oooh, I am so excited! Rachel From karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:18:27 2005 From: karen.lyall at blueyonder.co.uk (karenlyall666) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:18:27 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132636 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1.Who will be the most major character to die? ~ Peter Pettigrew (possibly while saving Ron or Harry's life) - thereby clearing Sirius's name totally and lending more weight to all Harry and Dumbledore have been saying over the past few years. 2.Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy,"describe more.) ~ Godric Gryffindor is both `the Half-Blood Prince' and `The Old Lion Guy'. (see my prediction 3 below) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) ~ Her job, which was as an Unspeakable in the locked room at the Ministry of Magic. 4.Who will be the new DADA teacher? ~ Time for a good character and probably someone we've already met. Possibly Tonks or Fleur. 5.With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? ~ Ginny but not until the latter half of the story, possibly even at tthe very end of the book. 6.Who will be the new Minister of Magic? ~ An OOTP sympathiser but not a direct member. Probably Madam Bones 7.What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? ~A Penseive. Probably used to find out more about Lily or about my prediction 3 below 8.Will Harry take Advanced Potions? ~ Yes. He needs it to become an Auror and we need it to interact with Snape 9.Will Neville take Advanced Potions? ~ Yes. He needs it to become a Healer. Also potions won't be so terrifying for him this year as he will grow in confidence in all other aspects of his life due to being chosen by the correct wand. 10.How many OWLs did Harry get? Counting Practical and Theory separately == 12 SUBJECT PRACTICAL THEORY Defense Against the Dark Arts Y Y Care of Magical Creatures Y Y Transfiguration Y Y Charms Y Y History of Magic - N Divination N Y Astronomy* Y - Potions Y Y *(the interruption to the practical will be taken into account for all students affected) Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Aberforth Dumbledore will make a significant appearance (minus any goats!). Though I doubt it will be as a teacher. 2. Neville will show signs of becoming a formidable wizard now that he has the correct wand. And will set out on his road to being a Healer by finding a cure for his parents starting with the `Droobles Best Blowing Gum' wrappers. 3. The sorting hat will again echo its message of `the previous year' regarding reuniting the houses. This will lead to us finding out details of the founders falling out, and more about the other teachers at Hogwarts (Sinistra, Vector, etc ), and possibly spouses and/or children of the teachers we already know. 4. Harry, Ron and Hermione will not take History of Magic, Astronomy or Divination in their sixth year. (as each applies) 5. The person to `develop magic late in life' will be either Arabella Figg, Aberforth Dumbledore OR Argus Filch. karenlyall666 From annamhudson at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 16:54:01 2005 From: annamhudson at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:54:01 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20050712134446.01b09d58@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132637 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Headless Nick or Draco Malfoy or Dudley > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She Dated Snape > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Petunia and Snape used to date. 2. Petunia can do magic 3. The relationship that JKR talks about is between Hagrid and Madame Maxime Anna From sara.dietz at erac.com Wed Jul 13 16:55:47 2005 From: sara.dietz at erac.com (Dietz, Sara A) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:55:47 -0500 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132638 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Angie wrote: >>You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum. The artwork is >>breathtaking. I knew that was a fence, but I had thought maybe they >>were looking at the remnants of the Potter's old home place. >>Obviously not, because the cottage is intact (if somewhat >>delapidated). Heather the buzzard wrote: >I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's head and what >looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. The mystery >deepens . . . . ***There are also bats flying on the upper right hand corner, they blend really well with the trees, but there are two of them...VAMPIRES?!?! I agree that the Potters wouldn't live here, with the door serpent and everything. The shadowy figure in the window looks like an ambush or someone hiding...I think the cane guy (doesn't the "lion like guy" walk with a limp?) is walking in to something bad IS IT THE 16TH YET?!?!! Miss Crookshanks From tinglinger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 17:46:03 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:46:03 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132639 tinglinger > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, and behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) could that knife be Sirius' knife? also a serpent on the door..... if this is a pensieve memory, i wonder if it is Dumbledore's.... could someone else's memories be installed therein, kind of like a pensieve encyclopedia? THat was my guess for the pensieve on the cover of HBP -- kind of an uber pensieve, where many memories are stored. tinglinger whose site potterplots will be populated by final predictions starting at 6pm this evening (the end of a serious RW project) ..... if you check the polls, the last question of the fourth poll seems more and more likely the more info is leaked..... jim dale had said on the Today show that the HBP ends with a cliffhanger..... the one I proposed looks better and better... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 17:49:06 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050713174906.4464.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132640 --- heather the buzzard wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Angie wrote: > > >>You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum. > The artwork is > >>breathtaking. I knew that was a fence, but I had > thought maybe they were looking at the remnants of > the Potter's old home place. Obviously not, because > the cottage is intact (if somewhat delapidated). > >> > >> > > > >I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's > head and what > >looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the > cottage. The mystery > >deepens . . . . > > > I might wonder if it is GH indeed, but this is DD > and Harry inside a > pensieve memory > I have a feeling that the fellow with the walking > stick is a 'bad guy' > at any rate... > > heather the buzzard > Yes, I was thinking of Harry and Dumbledore following someone too, though it didn't occur to me that it could be inside a pensieve. The second time I looked at this cover I saw what looks to be a silhouette of a person through the window in the cottage. I'm so dying for this book. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 13 17:54:09 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:09 -0000 Subject: Woops! Mistake regarding HP and the Catholic church... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I recently posted that the Catholic church had expressed approval of > the HP novels. Looks like I was wrong, that the press had mis- > reported this, and that Pope Benedict actually disapproves of them. Hi all, I hope my reply concerning "Harry Potter and the Holy See" (wouldn't it be a nice title?) isn't off topic. Two years ago, the Vatican examined the growing importance of New Age in our societies, and its consequences for the Catholic Church. After the report was released, an official declared that the Harry Potter series had got the Vatican's approval. Here are two links to articles relating the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2722077.stm http://www.cesnur.org/2003/potter_01.htm If you want to read what the Vatican says concerning New Age, go to: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/docume nts/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html I don't think the Vatican's official position has changed since 2003, but if it's not the case, you'll correct me. Meanwhile, I suppose we Catholic fans can read our favourite books in pacem. Amicalement, Iris From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 18:13:37 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:13:37 -0000 Subject: Huge question about the Prophecy, and a prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132642 I have a huge issue with the Prophecy. It says that "neither can live while the other survives." Hasn't that been violated for the past 15 years now? Is there some sort of time limit? Can Voldy just go hide in the mountains for 120 years or however long Harry is going to live? This makes me think that there is a reason for the two different words: "live" and "survive." I think she must be using the word "live" to mean something different than simply "not be dead," whereas "survive" does mean that. There are many possibilities: Voldemort's "cursed life, half life" thanks to dining on unicorn blood. His years of being bodiless or sluglike. Harry's inability to truly "live" his own life, as long as his life revolves around Voldemort. Voldemort says he cannot die a "mortal death" - has he already died a spiritual death? Did he experience a "type" of death when AK rebounded and hit him, so in that sense he is no longer "living"? Hmmm. Or, maybe it really does just mean "not dead," and to say that "neither can live while the other survives" just refers to the inevitability of one killing the other. But I think JKR said that she worded it very carefully, so I don't think she meant that... there is some trickery here. -------------------------- Now, a prediction: In GoF, in the graveyard, Voldemort indicates three death eaters - Karkaroff the coward, Crouch Jr. the loyal servent, and Snape, who has left him forever - AND WILL BE KILLED. So here's my prediction: either Snape dies in the next two books, OR he successfully defends himself, finally earning him that position as DADA instructor - or both. While I can see JKR setting up DADA!Snape as part of the conclusion of Book 7, for the year after Harry leaves school (or dies), I have a hard time imagining her being able to resist writing a full year of DADA!Snape. So maybe he defends himself in 6, teaches in 7, but then is killed... setting up the eighth consecutive year with a new DADA instructor! ------------------------ Finally: Do you think JKR intended for the killing curse to resemble the cliched magical incantation, "Abracadabra"? I think of that whenever I read "Avada Kedavra". - davenclaw From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 18:28:53 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:28:53 -0700 Subject: HBP prediction contest - Off Limit Spoilers Message-ID: <410-220057313182853921@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132643 Greetings, I would like to inform everyone, that any predictions that can be taken from the new back cover of the HBP deluxe edition is now off limits, and will not be awarded any points. Thanks, Chancie~Minion in Charge of Spoilers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 18:36:20 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713183620.39997.qmail@web31514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132644 > Britt: > > Fred and George have been morally ambiguous during > the entire > series. > Nuri Wrote: > I believe you are wrong here. I don't think they're > morally > ambiguous. They're heavy pranksters, that's true, > but they know what > lines not to cross. They don't play pranks on people > like Neville, > for instance (I'm sure Neville would be very > affected by them, and > I'm also sure Neville would be heavily bullied had > he gone to a > muggle school). Neither do they joke about Percy > around Molly, and > they show truly worried for Ginny in CS and Arthur > in OP... > Moreover, they're *liked* by most people, so that > gives you a good > clue that, while being troublemakers, their hearts > must be in the > right place. bamf here: Actually, I would point out that the twins DID prank Neville with the canary cream. HOWEVER, it was something that was not perminant and was when it was just their house. Compare that to Draco in PS/SS who uses Neville as a test subject for the Leg-locking curse and then leaves poor Neville to fend for himself. Neville had to drag himself to the common room and have some one (Herm) reverse the curse. (I wonder if I could get Herm. to reverse the curse on the Cubs...) I do agree with Nuri, however, that the twins are NOT morally ambigious. Pranksters, true. For them, Percy crossed a line when he choose work over family. For them, they, as they claim, never went over 'the line' when DD was headmaster, most likely because he *was* fair. When "Ms. Ahem-Ahem-Toady" took power, things became a lot less civil and unfair. That was when they retaliated. I also think it's hard to be the undesputed Loved Prank Lords of Hogwarts if they went over the line often. Like Nuri said, they were liked by most of the school. At the same point, though, they seemed to help keep the balance of the school in check. Look at the mayhem that happened when they left and others 'competed' for the 'title'... bamf, loquaciously... Me t wyrd gewf ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From momy424 at aol.com Wed Jul 13 18:31:29 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:31:29 -0400 Subject: Sirius In-Reply-To: <1121272109.1556.72209.m23@yahoogroups.com> References: <1121272109.1556.72209.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C755F0387DA1C2-BF4-165C1@mblk-r33.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132645 >Finwitch: > >Reason for Sirius to be *truly* dead, rather than just fake it with Moony: inheritance >that will be important issue in HBP; that Harry's considered of age a year early >because both his parents AND his godfather are dead - in addition to passing enough of >his OWLs and a hero again -- or perhaps Sirius declares him so in his will or >whatever... > >You know, I'd just really have liked Sirius to get cleared before dying - if this death >was real, that's what bothers me most... > >Finwitch Now Momy424 I have to say that I don't really buy this theory. Not that I wouldn't love to, but I seem to remember this question posed to Jo that Sirius was not really dead after OoTP came out and her saying quite vehemetly that he was truly dead. However, I can still see how even in death, this would not mean he can not still be an intergral part of the story. James and Lily, even in death have still managed to give wisdom and guidance to their son who has no actual memory of them, not to mention powers. So one can make an argument, that Sirius, who though only with Harry for a short time, has forged a bond with him that will show itself as the he beings to fight Voldemort. I think we need to think beyond a physical one on one contact situation on how Sirius can effect Harry's life. We don't know that he has not left writings and books for harry at 12GP that will only be discovered in HBP, or other effects that will assist Harry in his fight. Sirius was such a strong figure in the books and in Harry's life that I can't imagine his death does not impact the future in someway, but I can't really believe that he is not really dead. Momy424 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 18:43:15 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:43:15 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <20050713174906.4464.qmail@web30113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132646 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E I think I can see figures behind Harry and DD to the left. If you follow the branch that Harry's hand is on to where it forks into 3 and follow the right hand fork round where it curves back to the left and crosses the central fork there seems to be a face (or possibly the Dark Mark) in the space between it and the branch above. If you then go back to the fork into three and follow the left hand branch, there seems to be another face with bushey hair in the gap between that branch and the one above (which is the original rh fork which bends left) to the left of the first face I mentioned. Is anyone still with me?!! Can anyone else see this? I am 100% sure there is a figure in the first window but there seems to be something whispy floating outside the farthest window. It looks to me like the ghost of a duck(!) so could it be the shadowy bird shape that DD conjured to summon Hagrid when they found the unconscious Krum where Crouch had been left by Harry in GoF? This is great - I was a great one for seeing pictures in fires as a child so I am loving this! Karen From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 18:45:55 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:45:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius In-Reply-To: <8C755F0387DA1C2-BF4-165C1@mblk-r33.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20050713184555.2386.qmail@web86702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132647 Now Momy424 I have to say that I don't really buy this theory. Not that I wouldn't love to, but I seem to remember this question posed to Jo that Sirius was not really dead after OoTP came out and her saying quite vehemetly that he was truly dead. Now Fitzov: Beg to differ. JKR has always been extremely coy about answering this question and has certainly never given a yes or no answer. In all interviews she refuses to answer any questions about Sirius' 'death' on the basis that this is a spoiler to those who have not read Book 5. She once offered to answer the question in a poll on her website, but readers voted for her to answer the question about Mark Evans instead. From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 18:45:13 2005 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:45:13 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132648 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'll go with Dumbledore, even if I think it would make more sense for him not to die until book 7. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffyndor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She doesn't have one. (Which I suppose leaves me out to dry if I'm right. :p) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Old Lion Guy, who will be a new teacher and a bona fide decent DADA instructor. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In book 6, noone. There will be some flirting with Ginny, but nothing substantial will emerge until book 7. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. Ok, I should probably be more specific than that. Let's say Riddle/Lord V's penseive, just to be different. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 (some of the tests will allow for multiple OWLs) Predictions (0-10 points each): Harry will only have received an "E" in potions. Early in book 6, Harry and the readers will assume that it was Dumbledore or McGonagal who leaned on Snape to let Harry into advanced potions. Late in the book, it will be revealed that letting Harry take advanced potions was Snape's idea. Harry will become a metamorphmagus. (*yawn* At least it wouldnt be another animagus.) Ron and Hermione will finally stop beating around the bush and become a bona fide couple. Ron will be quidditch captain, but only because Harry doesn't want to. It's revealed that Snape and McG are married. (Hello, left field!) -- Ernest From anurim at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 18:56:59 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050713185700.75408.qmail@web32609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132649 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E I've always wondered if Dumbledore takes Harry (only) to GH, or (also) to the place where he went in the missing 24 hours, possibly to seal the blood charm that protected Harry or for other pressing reasons we have yet to hear about. Wouldn't it be possible that Voldemort tries to find out what precautions Dumbledore took and somehow reverse them, thus calling for Dumbledore's assistance to protect them? Perhaps a feeble idea - what do the others think? Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 19:06:20 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:06:20 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > tinglinger > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > tinglinger wrote: > there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, and > behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) > could that knife be Sirius' knife? > also a serpent on the door..... > > > Angie here: > If you are referring to the knife that Sirius gave to Harry, wasn't it a pin-knife? He couldn't have carried that Crocodile Dundee knife in his pocket, could he? From brossiter at dc.rr.com Wed Jul 13 19:06:17 2005 From: brossiter at dc.rr.com (brossiter at dc.rr.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:06:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fred & George - Evil? Message-ID: <5b4d8f5b8117.5b81175b4d8f@socal.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132651 brossiter initially wrote: > > > Fred and George have been morally ambiguous during > > the entire > > series. then Nuri Wrote: > > I believe you are wrong here. I don't think they're > > morally > > ambiguous. They're heavy pranksters, that's true, > > but they know what > > lines not to cross. brossiter responds: That may very well be true, and they may well not be evil. And they may not have had loads of time to rummage through the drawer, picking and choosing among the various tidbits that had been collected by Filch and his predecessors through the years. But that still doesn't explain why, even in such a short amount of time, why they picked out what must have appeared as a blank parchment. Even if they thought it odd that bare parchment would be considered "dangerous," there's no explanation as to how they worked out how to use it ("I solemnly swear...") Scabbers!Peter is the most likely source for both bits of information, and there's simply no way the twins could have gotten information out of the rat unless they were (or became) aware of the rat's true nature. Maybe it wasn't out of evil-ness; maybe Peter knew the twins were hellians who'd get a kick out of the map. But even THAT means that the twins would have known who & what Scabbers really was long before the events of PoA, and never once breathed a word of it. Britt (who smells a rat, even if it isn't one or both of the twins...) From c-katsos at northwestern.edu Wed Jul 13 19:16:52 2005 From: c-katsos at northwestern.edu (Christina Katsos) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:16:52 -0500 Subject: Molly, Sirius's mirror, and behavior in OotP Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20050713131506.01aa52d8@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 132652 >Amiable Dorsai: >Molly was near the end of her rope, I think. She's lost weight (from >stress, presumably) and she can't even handle a boggart. Her reaction >to the boggart, tells the tale: she's terrified that some or all of >her family are going to die--to her credit, she includes Harry and >Hermione in her fears. Christina: Molly is highly protective of her brood and is very cautious, something I think makes her arguments with Sirius (who doesn't seem to have lost all of his childhood recklessness) understandable. However, there is one line of dialogue that I find overly cruel: (OotP, US Hardcover, pg 88) " 'Yes,' said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling. 'The thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?' " Now, if Sirius's jailtime had been due to recklessness or carelessness on his part, I could see Mrs. Weasley's throwing it in his face. After all, what kind of man deserts his godson when he needs him most? However, Sirius's time in Azkaban had nothing to do with his own actions. First of all, she basically accuses him of abandoning Harry (at least that's how I read it). Secondly, it's not as though Sirius had been lying in Bermuda for the past decade--he got his happy thoughts sucked out daily for a crime he didn't even commit. The horrors of Azkaban only could have been multiplied by the fact that Sirius had to deal with the loss of his best friend at the same time (and the fact that he still harbors guilt over suggesting Peter as Secret Keeper). To even bring up Azkaban in front of Sirius is cruel. Molly goes as far as to put an accusatory spin on it, and that's probably the meanest thing she could have possible said to Sirius. >bboyminn: >I'm convinced that Sirius will come back to the story, but that >doesn't mean he will come back to life. I really don't support the >idea of communication with Sirius via the two-way mirror. Harry tried >that and it didn't work. Christina: I've always thought that the mirror had more to do with James than with Sirius. Sirius's note says that "James and I used to use them when we were in separate detentions." I take this as a huge clue that the mirror is about to become highly significant. Assuming that Sirius would keep the mirror he had always used (and I think that's a pretty safe assumption to make), the mirror he gave Harry must have belonged to James. Harry doesn't have much from his parents, but the two objects that he *does* have that belonged to dad (the cloak and the map) have proven essential to Harry's various quests. As for the actual significance of the mirror, I don't think it's the glass part that's important- he could repair it with magic, but why would he? He already tried to use it for what he thought its purpose was. I'd love to see Harry discover some sort of engraving on the mirror, or find out that it has powers other than it's walkie-talkie ability. >Finwitch >You know, I think something in 12 GP was getting them... Many of them >act their worst in this book... > >Hermione saying 'saving-people-thing' - as if it's a bad thing. Her >reaction of Thestrals, first to deny they exist - until they come up >in class, and then wish she could see them... no, I don't think we >should trust Hermione about how much of the Quibbler is true at all... > >Harry with his anger. >Molly insulting Sirius >Sirius with such recklessness, quick to anger etc. >As of Snape -- his worst moment? I'd say it was more of what he did >at 15 than anything else. Insulting someone who is standing up for >him? Christina: I agree on Molly, but not the others. I've always seen Hermione as a bit tactless--she's always convinced that she's right (and she usually is, but that's another story), but she seems to say a bit too much too early. She'll repeatedly push subjects that obviously irritate Harry (annoying him about homework, occlumency lessons, etc.) and doesn't seem to know how to choose her words carefully. Before I read OotP, I had heard a lot of people saying that they didn't like Harry's attitude in the book, but I really enjoyed it. He acts kind of bratty, but it's typical teenage stuff. I watch my brother and sisters (all currently in high school), and I think- I really hope I was never that bad! What I'm saying is, a lot of teenagers are moody. Add the intense stress of Cedric's death, Harry's being being left out of the loop constantly (which he views as the adults treating him like a child), *and* Voldy's influence on his emotions, and I completely understand Harry's behavior. I'm not saying it's ok for him to be lashing out at people, but I can see it. Sirius has always been a bit reckless. His stay in Azkaban prevented him from really ever growing up; I think he's been frozen at 20-something. And Snape- I actually found his behavior at 15 less abrasive than at his current age. Needing help from a muggle-born girl must have been tough on Snape's dignity. It's the classic childhood I'd-rather-be-bullied-than-have-my-inferiors-stand-up-for-me attitude. It was bad of him to be mean to Lily (who was being nice), but Snape's always had a lot of pride. I must say, I like the little flaws we're allowed to see in the characters. As Sirius (I think) said, "You can't just split the world up into good people and Death Eaters." As Harry grows, he discovers that things are nearly not as black and white as he thought they were--Dumbledore makes mistakes, Snape had a tough childhood (never mind the pensieve episode- the brief vision Harry sees of "a hook-nosed man shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner," is enough), James was sort of a bully, etc. It's one of the things I loved about OotP--JK Rowling does a great job writing adolescence, a time when our views of "good" and "evil" are torn apart in favor of a more realistic picture that reflects the true complexity of the world. Christina From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 13 19:26:08 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:26:08 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132653 > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > tinglinger wrote: > > there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, and > > behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) > > could that knife be Sirius' knife? > > also a serpent on the door..... > > > > > > Angie wrote: > > If you are referring to the knife that Sirius gave to Harry, > wasn't it a pin-knife? He couldn't have carried that Crocodile > Dundee knife in his pocket, could he? Rachael: That knife can't be the knife that Sirius gave Harry because that melted when they tried to pick the lock of the "love/heart" room. From nobradors at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 19:32:07 2005 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (Nuria Obradors Pi) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:32:07 +0200 Subject: HBP predictions contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132655 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Fudge 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Lupin 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She had a fling with Snape. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? "The Old Lion Guy". He's Dumbledore's friend. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. (I believe he got his owl, but not with a grade good enough for Snape to allow him in his class) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Charms, Transfiguration, CoMC, DADA, Potions, Astronomy, Herbology. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. a. Neville will "bloom", so to speak. He'll change for the better. b. Petunia is actually a witch, but she did not accept going to Hogwarts when she got her letter. c. By the end of Book 6, the Weasleys will still be waiting for Percy's apology, either he repents or not. (wow, that was tough not to make in negative) d. Harry will have a fling with Luna (or at least he'll feel attracted to her) e. Draco's character will have more developement. (more of a wish expression than a prediction... :S) Nuri Hace mucho que no ves Mi Blog? www.nuri148.blogspot.com From daveshardell at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 19:37:54 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:37:54 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132656 I have another question about the Prophecy: Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb recording the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just have Harry go in and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have people risk their lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a plausible reason for this? Were they trying to prevent Harry from learning about the prophecy? Was it really smart to risk people's lives instead of just letting Harry in on the secret and foiling Voldemort's attempts to get the prophecy? - davenclaw From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 19:47:56 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:47:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009401c587e3$c4eeafb0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132657 I have another question about the Prophecy: Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb recording the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just have Harry go in and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have people risk their lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a plausible reason for this? Were they trying to prevent Harry from learning about the prophecy? Was it really smart to risk people's lives instead of just letting Harry in on the secret and foiling Voldemort's attempts to get the prophecy? - davenclaw Sherry adds: And one thing that's always bothered me, why do they care if Voldemort hears it? He's already heard enough to make him try to kill Harry repeatedly. What's the point of keeping it from him? How will that make things worse? sherry From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 19:55:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713195533.7586.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132658 --- davenclaw wrote: > I have another question about the Prophecy: > > Since it was ultimately of little consequence that > the orb recording > the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order > just have Harry go in > and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have > people risk their > lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a plausible > reason for this? > Were they trying to prevent Harry from learning > about the prophecy? > Was it really smart to risk people's lives instead > of just letting > Harry in on the secret and foiling Voldemort's > attempts to get the > prophecy? > > - davenclaw Good question. I've wonder often about it, as I see it there are 2 copies of the prophesy, Dumbledore has one and the MoM has the other at the orb. Curretly (before the DoM battle) the Order is in posession of one copy and is guarding the other, are they just to *greedy* that they need to have both copies? I guess the reason they didn't want Harry to go all the way to the DoM, and take the prophesy in the first place is Harry's safety: Harry (AKAWK) is only safe in two places: Privet Drive and Hogwarts, and since Harry's well being is their first concern I guess that option wasn't really an option. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 20:09:00 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:09:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? Message-ID: <410-2200573132090859@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132659 why didn't the Order just have Harry go in > and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have people risk their > lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a plausible reason for this? > > - davenclaw > *************************************** > Sherry adds: > > And one thing that's always bothered me, why do they care if Voldemort hears > it? He's already heard enough to make him try to kill Harry repeatedly. > What's the point of keeping it from him? How will that make things worse? > > sherry > *************************************** Chancie: I do agree that it probably would have been easier to destroy the prophecy than guard it, but then they would still be running the risk of Harry, being seen breaking to the DOM, and the MoM was already trying to find a way to get rid of him. But I think that the DE's would have still been waiting for an opportunity to get the orb, so there would probably still have been a fight, but maybe Sirius would still have been alive. The only reason I can think of for the Order not wanting Voldemort to know the prophecy, is that it might "tip him off" to what he needs to do to kill Harry in some way. (I'm meaning the part that says "power the Dark Lord knows not...) It could also result in Voldemort going after Neville, and possibly others that he might see as a threat. Chancie From lycanthropylupus at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 19:22:34 2005 From: lycanthropylupus at gmail.com (Gwen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:22:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius In-Reply-To: <20050713184555.2386.qmail@web86702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <8C755F0387DA1C2-BF4-165C1@mblk-r33.sysops.aol.com> <20050713184555.2386.qmail@web86702.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132660 On 7/13/05, Fitzov de Sullens wrote: Now Momy424 I have to say that I don't really buy this theory. Not that I wouldn't love to, but I seem to remember this question posed to Jo that Sirius was not really dead after OoTP came out and her saying quite vehemetly that he was truly dead. Now Fitzov: Beg to differ. JKR has always been extremely coy about answering this question and has certainly never given a yes or no answer. In all interviews she refuses to answer any questions about Sirius' 'death' on the basis that this is a spoiler to those who have not read Book 5. She once offered to answer the question in a poll on her website, but readers voted for her to answer the question about Mark Evans instead. Now Gwen: Although JKR never answered the poll question about Sirius' death, other quotes indicate that Sirius' is doubtlessly dead. BBC interview right before book 5 was released: JKR: "Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, 'What on earth is wrong?' and I said, 'Well, I've just killed the person.' Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, 'I've just killed the person.' And he said, 'Well, don't do it then.' I thought, 'a doctor' you know, and I said 'Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer.'" It is highly unlikely that she would be this upset over one of the minor character's death in OoP. >From the World Book Day Chat: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. Together these quotes point to the fact that Sirius is dead, even if she hasn't said that exact phrase. Nonetheless, as others have argued, this doesn't mean that we won't see Sirius again in some form. Who knows, maybe we'll even be seeing him again in a couple of days! Cheers, Gwen From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 20:21:42 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:21:42 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: <009401c587e3$c4eeafb0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132661 > >>Davenclaw: > I have another question about the Prophecy: > Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb > recording the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just > have Harry go in and destroy it from the beginning, rather than > have people risk their lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a > plausible reason for this? Betsy Hp: Yup! (At least IMO .) It's like PS/SS all over again. Dumbledore was setting up a trap and the prophecy was the bait. During OotP, what was Voldemort's main priority? Keeping his return a secret. Why else was Lucius Malfoy keeping Fudge on such a short leash? And what was Dumbledore's main priority? Getting the truth out. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort knew that stealing something from the DoM was a tricky business. Voldemort did everything in his power to keep from going down there himself. Dumbledore, on the other hand, was doing everything in his power to *get* Voldemort to the DoM. The prophecy was the best bait Dumbledore could think of. > >>Davenclaw: > Were they trying to prevent Harry from learning about the > prophecy? Was it really smart to risk people's lives instead of > just letting Harry in on the secret and foiling Voldemort's > attempts to get the prophecy? Betsy Hp: *Dumbledore* wanted to protect Harry from the prophecy for as long as possible. But that really had nothing to do with the trap he was setting. Yes, in the end the attempt to keep Harry in the dark nearly ruined everything Dumbledore had set in motion. However, creating a situation where Voldemort himself had to risk snatching the prophecy himself really had nothing to do with keeping the prophecy a secret from Harry. That was just Dumbledore's attempt at keeping Harry a child for just a little longer. > >>Sherry: > And one thing that's always bothered me, why do they care if > Voldemort hears it? He's already heard enough to make him try to > kill Harry repeatedly. What's the point of keeping it from him? > How will that make things worse? Betsy Hp: Actually, Voldemort *seriously* tried to kill Harry only once, in the graveyard in GoF. And at that time this wasn't even his main goal. Harry's purpose in the graveyard was to provide some necessary blood for Voldemort's little beauty bath. The reason Voldemort tried to kill Harry was to build back some of the reputation he'd lost back when he'd first been banished. Voldemort put a lot of effort into trying to humiliate and belittle Harry in front of his Death Eaters before delivering the final blow. He was toying with Harry because he underestimated Harry. But, if Voldemort was to learn the whole prophecy, that Harry is not just one who *can* kill him, but is in fact the *only* one who can kill him, his attempts on Harry's life would become a heck of a lot more serious. I think Dumbledore realizes this. I think Dumbledore also realizes that Voldemort is an incredibly smart and clever wizard and if he has all the information at his fingertips he could well figure out how to finally kill Harry. Betsy Hp From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:34:10 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:34:10 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132662 > Amiable Dorsai: > > Molly was near the end of her rope, I think. She's lost weight (from > stress, presumably) and she can't even handle a boggart. Her reaction > to the boggart, tells the tale: she's terrified that some or all of > her family are going to die--to her credit, she includes Harry and > Hermione in her fears. First of all, whatever her feelings are, she doesn't have any authority over Harry and Hermione so her deciding what was best for them always rubbed me the wrong way. Secondly, I reread the arguement in OOTP and the whole thing seemed to me to be motivated entirely by the combination of jealousy of Sirius/Harry friendship and blind obedience towards Dumbledore. I also think that Sirius, seemingly the only person willing to actually stand up to her, rubbed her the wrong way on a personal level. > I think jealousy may play a part in her feelings about Sirius, but I'm > also sure there's more than that. Sirius, after all, broke her > youngest son's leg once. His actions could have led to Ron's being > bitten by a werewolf or Kissed by a Dementor. but none of that was mentioned or even really hinted at. the whole arguement revolved too much around Harry. It was basically a fight over who loved Harry more and who had his best interests more at heart. > And there's Sirius, egging them on. By egging them on, do you mean the part where he wanted to give information to Harry because he thought that was best? For a crazy ex-prisoner he certainly ended up being more right that Molly's blind obedience to Dumbledore's vaunted wisdom. > And I think she shared your feeling that there was something not quite > right about Sirius. Molly isn't exactly a closed book when it came to her feelings. I doubt she had any hidden feelings when it came to Sirius. And based on the Azakban shot, she would have used it if she had. In the next book I hope to seen some Harry/Molly fallout. Molly was so out of line when it came to Sirius and some of her own family that I hope someone calls her on it. Shooting your mouth off out of 'caring' should only get you so far before someone tells you enough is enough phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:39:43 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:39:43 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Davenclaw: > > I have another question about the Prophecy: > > Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb > > recording the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just > > have Harry go in and destroy it from the beginning, rather than > > have people risk their lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a > > plausible reason for this? > > Betsy Hp: > Yup! (At least IMO .) It's like PS/SS all over again. Dumbledore > was setting up a trap and the prophecy was the bait. During OotP, > what was Voldemort's main priority? Keeping his return a secret. > Why else was Lucius Malfoy keeping Fudge on such a short leash? And > what was Dumbledore's main priority? Getting the truth out. > > Both Dumbledore and Voldemort knew that stealing something from the > DoM was a tricky business. Voldemort did everything in his power to > keep from going down there himself. Dumbledore, on the other hand, > was doing everything in his power to *get* Voldemort to the DoM. > The prophecy was the best bait Dumbledore could think of. Why would he want Voldemort to come out of hiding though? Harry isn't ready to kill him and if he wanted Voldemort to just be revealed why not just stick Harry in front of madame Bones with a pensieve and let her look at the memories in the graveyard? Sigh, I hope HBP makes more sense than OOTP. phoenixgod2000 From kayt.williams at btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 20:41:36 2005 From: kayt.williams at btinternet.com (Fitzov de Sullens) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:41:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050713204136.15059.qmail@web86706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132664 On 7/13/05, Fitzov de Sullens wrote: Now Momy424 I have to say that I don't really buy this theory. Not that I wouldn't love to, but I seem to remember this question posed to Jo that Sirius was not really dead after OoTP came out and her saying quite vehemetly that he was truly dead. Now Fitzov: Beg to differ. JKR has always been extremely coy about answering this question and has certainly never given a yes or no answer. In all interviews she refuses to answer any questions about Sirius' 'death' on the basis that this is a spoiler to those who have not read Book 5. She once offered to answer the question in a poll on her website, but readers voted for her to answer the question about Mark Evans instead. Now Gwen: Although JKR never answered the poll question about Sirius' death, other quotes indicate that Sirius' is doubtlessly dead. BBC interview right before book 5 was released: JKR: "Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, 'What on earth is wrong?' and I said, 'Well, I've just killed the person.' Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, 'I've just killed the person.' And he said, 'Well, don't do it then.' I thought, 'a doctor' you know, and I said 'Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer.'" It is highly unlikely that she would be this upset over one of the minor character's death in OoP. >From the World Book Day Chat: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. Together these quotes point to the fact that Sirius is dead, even if she hasn't said that exact phrase. Nonetheless, as others have argued, this doesn't mean that we won't see Sirius again in some form. Who knows, maybe we'll even be seeing him again in a couple of days! Cheers, Gwen Fitzov: Thanks Gwen, I was anticipating this response and am glad that you have quoted all of the relevant canon. I agree that Sirius is properly 'dead' in that he has passed through the veil into the land of the dead and that this would give JKR reason for sadness, on Harry's behalf at least. However, in the same way that Voldemort transcended death to return as a person very much alive, I believe that Sirius will do so now. As I have posted before, I believe that Sirius is trying to answer JKR's question 'why did Voldemort escape death'. And this leads inevitably to the question, 'how will Harry defeat Voldemort when Voldemort has already cheated death once already'. In my theory, Sirius tries to copy Voldemort in assuming dark magic (learned from the library left in 12 Grimmauld Place) to transcend death and return as a person very much alive. By learning Voldemort's secret, Sirius hopes to instruct Harry as to the only way in which he can possibly defeat him in Book 7. I agree with all the people who have posted recently that there is no point to Book 3 if Sirius is allowed to be killed off so easily in Book 5. There therefore has to be a reason for Sirius 'death', and I hypothesise that that reason is to enable Harry to learn the secrets of Voldemort's survival. Just a thory: although one of my favourites. Fitzov Fitzov [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 20:38:42 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:38:42 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132665 davenclaw wrote: > I have another question about the Prophecy: > > Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb recording > the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just have Harry go in > and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have people risk their > lives to guard it? zgirnius: Interesting question, I never really considered it before. (The end of OotP is just too action-filled for reasoned consideration I guess!) Well, prior to the end of GoF, there was no reason to worry about the prophecy in the DoM, since only Harry (who does not know about it) or Voldemort (who is not around) can access it. So why not have Harry retrieve and destroy it? I agree that the value of keeping the prophecy from Harry to keep him happier is not worth the risks it entailed. Possible other reasons that come to me: 1) Voldemort is back, but the MoM refuses to acknowledge this. HE wants the prophecy to understand what went wrong the first time. By guarding the prophecy the Order hopes to force an open move by Voldemort and/or the Death Eaters, which can then be used to expose the truth of his return to the WW at large. This might arguably be a sufficiently important reason for the risk involved, since it may gain the Order allies, and will make "neutral" people on their guard, making them less vulnerable to the more underhanded methods of Voldemort and his followers. The prophecy is needed as "bait". 2) Who knows what the prophecy states? My reading is that at the start of OotP, the answer is "only Dumbledore". This is a very good state of affairs if we assume that the full prophecy may warn Voldemort of some danger against which he can prepare himself, or may save Voldemort from making some mistake he would otherwise make. (I'm not good at Divination...count me in with Hermione there, so don't ask me WHAT LV could possibly learn that is of use. But maybe Dumbledore is better at this sort of thing that I!) The the problem with having Harry fetch the prophecy and destroy it is that Voldemort may be able to learn of its contents from Harry using the "scar link" and his Legilimency. (Since Dumbledore confides the secret at the end of the book, we must assume if we buy this theory that Dumbledore now believes that Harry will be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind in the future...) 3) My imagination has run out of steam... From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 13 20:45:28 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:45:28 -0000 Subject: The Reason Snape is such a miserable git..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132666 Well, there are only a couple days left til Book 6 so I figure I might as well post my half-baked theories. 1. Severus Snape is married "Are you married, or are you happy?" ? Curly, The Three Stooges I don't think it would be controversial to say that Severus Snape is a deeply unhappy person. His unhappiness goes beyond the usual `bad hair day' level. Really, what else could cause that much misery, but marriage to a deranged harpy? Actually, I first wrote about this idea in this in post 100492. To summarize, Snape has always reminded me of this passage from the beginning of the Pink Floyd song, Another Brick in the Wall. When we grew up and went to school There were certain teachers who would Hurt the children in any way they could By pouring their derision upon anything we did And exposing every weakness However carefully hidden by the kids Then JKR posted the following on her website (regarding the POA premiere) "Somebody from Warner Bros. offered me one of the giant, blow-up Aunt Marges that they had tied around the front of the cinema, but I thought it would have been more fun to untie them and let them drift over the country for the next couple of days. Pink Floyd did it with that giant inflatable pig... but most of the people reading this will be too young to know what on earth I'm talking about." So, she is familiar with Pink Floyd, and I would assume with "Another Brick in the Wall". Wouldn't it be a hoot if we find out that the remainder of the passage is true for old Sevvie? Here's the remainder of the passage But in the town, it was well known When they got home at night, their fat and Psychopathic wives would thrash them Within inches of their lives. You'd be a miserable bastard too, wouldn't you? 2. Sirius Black was eliminated by friendly fire. Or he sacrificed himself. I go back and forth on this one. In post # 76111, Talisman set forth a fascinating theory. It is well worth the time to go back and read this one. I read it again today, and find myself even more impressed than I was last year when I first read it. To briefly summarize, Talisman theorizes that Sirius was sacrificed as part of Dumbledore's plan in order to further his "noble" plan. The only thing I would add to the theory is that in OotP, Sirius strikes me as a bit of a liability to the order. He seems at times to be a loose cannon, requiring "babysitting", mostly by Lupin. One could argue that he was no longer useful, at least to the Order. What do many people do when their dogs become old or senile or can no longer live the life of a dog? Yes, they euthanize them. Perhaps another way Sirius reflects his animagus form? Also, Sirius tells Harry about his aunt who started the Black Family tradition of beheading their House Elves when they outlived their usefulness. Interesting that JKR uses the Blacks (as opposed to say, Malfoys) as the family that began that tradition. It makes me wonder if Sirius also fell victim to that fate. When I first read Talisman's post, I responded my own theorette in post # 76111. I argued that perhaps Sirius sacrificed himself. I may not love the character of Sirius Black as much as others, but I think that he was a smart man. He was often reckless and irresponsible, but smart none-the-less. He may have concluded that a. he was miserable because he could not do anything useful b. this was unlikely to change anytime soon c. there was a role he could play (beyond the veil?) that would help Harry vanquish LV. Sirius could have approached Dumbledore (or vice versa ? depending on how guilty you think DD is) and volunteered to be the order's agent in the great beyond. I flip back and forth between these two scenarios. For now, I'll just sit firmly on the fence and wait for a stiff wind from this weekend's Hurricane to push me one way or the other. 3. The Sorting Hat considered placing Hermione in Slytherin OK, maybe not. But I think it should have. In OotP, she exhibited more Slytherin-like traits than Malfoy and his cronies! - She tries to trick the Hogwarts House Elves into freedom by hiding her knitted items under garbage and other items they are likely to touch. I find it ironic that Ron is the one who really champions the House Elves right to choose by uncovering the clothing. As he says "They should at least see what they're picking up" (OotP, CH 13, p. 255,US) - She attempts to use the centaur's to do her dirty work. Let's not forget, that if Grawpy hadn't come around, Harry would have been toast. - She blackmails Rita Skeeter. Not that the obnoxious twit didn't deserve it, but blackmail is against the law. Not to mention decidedly Slytherin. - She puts the "sneak" charm on the sign up sheet for the DA, without any advance warning to those signing up. The whole episode uncomfortably reminds me of Sirius' statement regarding LV, "You don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death." (OotP, CH 6, p. 112, US) Did Hermione let the DA members know that once they signed that sheet of paper, there was no going back? And if there was nothing wrong with her methods, then why didn't the Order use a similar charm to identify spies? - Did anyone else find it a little disturbing that Hermione admitted she based her charmed Galleon on LV's dark mark? (OotP, Ch 19, p. 399, US) 4. Shipping - I predict Harry/Luna I think it is telling that in those last few pages of OotP, when Harry was so miserable, JKR specifically has him spend time with Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Neville and Hagrid. He feels no better after being with them. In fact, the moment when he starts to feel better is after his conversation with Luna. It starts out as pity. But then Harry admits that he didn't mind talking to Luna about Sirius. Then at the conclusion of the conversation Harry feels as though the weight in his stomach had lessened. For whatever reason, on some level Harry connects with Luna. Spending time with her eases some of his pain. Who better to ship Harry with then the person who seems able to bring him a sense of peace. Demetra (who cannot believe how long it takes her to compose a semi- coherent post) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 20:51:55 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:51:55 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel" wrote: SPOILER SPACE ********************************************************************* ********************************************************************* ******************** Personally, I find it brings me right back to the groundskeeper who "snuck up" on LV. Didn;t we know that he had trouble walking and used a cane? We also know he lived in a small cottage on Riddle property (which might explain th snake on the door). > **************************************** Tonks: I though the gameskeeper went to the Riddle house when he found LV. The Old Riddle house was a mansion. This isn't a mansion, it is a small cottage. I don't think the Riddles would have a snake on the door of their house or on the cottage of their groundskeeper. There is a right handed Muggle coming up to the door. Could be a wizard disguised as a Muggle. (Mundungus?) Strange marking on the door. I don't think that the average Muggle would take too kindly to a house with that snake on the door, so it can't be your ordinary neighborhood. And someone is in the house. There is a figure in the window. Maybe LV disguised himself as a Muggle and this is Lily and James hideout. But that would be rather odd. Maybe it is somewhere that we do not know about yet. Is Albus' brother on "our" side? He isn't a Slytherin is he? And lets go back to the gum wrappers. As I have said before, it is all about gum!! If the gum wrappers are telling us something about the old gamekeeper, Ogg, maybe this is his cabin before he became the gamekeeper. Maybe he is dead and was a DE. OR, maybe it is a pensive scene of Ogg going into the forest and to???? cabin. Maybe it is a clue as to how TR became LV. Tonks_op From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 13 21:12:35 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:12:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius observations was Re: Snape's Worst (and Best!) OoP Moment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132668 > SSSusan: Oh, I don't have any quibble with you re: Bella, Pippin. When I talked about Snape baiting Sirius, I didn't mean in terms of his going to take on *Bella* specifically. I meant in more general terms of his rushing out to DO something... ANYthing... to be useful to the Order -- e.g., to go to the MoM. Pippin: Hmm, I don't think it was either rash or useless for Sirius to go to the MoM. Sirius and Bella were the last two fighting when Dumbledore arrived. If Sirius hadn't been there to stop her, who knows what she might have done? But she got into a grudge match with her cousin. It seems to run in the family, doesn't it? SSSusan: > > So, while I don't think the 12GP scene was the cause of Sirius' > death -- i.e., that Snape "forced" Sirius into rushing recklessly off to the MoM -- I do still believe it was a very, very low point for Snape in terms of his *intentions* when he spoke to Sirius about worthlessness, uselessness & cowardice. Pippin: I'm with Dumbledore on this one; I don't think Sirius took it all that, er, seriously. He was bored, spoiling for a fight, and Snape obliged him. Childish, but I don't see it as anything really terrible. If Hagrid had been there he'd have banged their heads together. It's ironic that it's Arthur's arrival that busts up the fight considering the way Arthur and Lucius got into it in Book Two. Now, if Snape discontinued the Occlumency lessons and failed to report it to DD -- that would be terrible. But we don't know that he did. > Pippin: > > Also noted on my re-reading of OOP; when Sirius accompanies Harry to King's Cross, he's not defying Dumbledore's orders just because he feels like it.The guard would have been one short without him since Podmore didn't show. > > SSSusan: > Aha! So Snape was wrong to "pick on" Sirius for that action. > Thanks, Pippin. ;-) Pippin: Not necessarily. It's a bit like the flying car incident in Book Two. Sending an owl and waiting for instructions would have been wiser. It's not like they *had* to take the train --what about the Knight Bus? On the other hand, there obviously wasn't any time to lose when they went to the MoM. > Pippin: > > I think Bella realized she'd been stupid; that's why she says, 'the animagus Black' when she's speaking to Voldemort later. She's trying to justify her actions by pointing out that Sirius was a powerful wizard, but she knows she blew it. > > SSSusan: > Now this intrigues me, but I admit I don't get it. Can you say more about how she blew it and how referring to Sirius as "animagus" indicates her understanding that she blew it? Pippin: Her mission was to secure the prophecy. Instead of doing that, she indulged in a grudge match with Sirius. He was an animagus, and that makes him a formidable wizard, and a worthy opponent under most circumstances, but there were better targets available. Her Master would have surely been better served had she not allowed Sirius to distract her from them. Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 21:15:10 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:15:10 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132669 phoenixgod2000 wrote: "First of all, whatever her feelings are, she doesn't have any authority over Harry and Hermione so her deciding what was best for them always rubbed me the wrong way." Del replies: Molly is the epitome of the protective mother. Asking her NOT to care for any parent-less kid around her is illogical IMO. And personally, if I was Harry or Hermione's mother, I'd be VERY GLAD that there is *someone* mothering my kid. I would NOT be happy if I let my teenage kid go to some place under some adult's supervision, and I learned that s/he had been allowed to, say, watch a porn movie, and when I ask why this is so to that supposedly responsible adult, I get told "well, s/he's not *my* kid, is s/he?" That would peeve me off *greatly* ! So personally, I support Molly in her substitute-mothering of Harry and Hermione. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Secondly, I reread the arguement in OOTP and the whole thing seemed to me to be motivated entirely by the combination of jealousy of Sirius/Harry friendship and blind obedience towards Dumbledore." Del replies: Well, I have been told several times that obedience to DD *is* the standard of goodness in the Potterverse. So is it, or is it not?? How can some people be blamed for NOT obeying DD, while some others are blamed for obeying him?? As for the jealousy, I find it totally understandable. Molly has been inviting Harry into her family for several years now. She has showered him with affection and attention. The Burrow is the only place apart from Hogwarts where Harry has ever been happy. So it is totally understandable to me that Molly would feel a bit possessive of Harry, and consequently a bit jealous that Harry loves Sirius so obviously more than her. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "In the next book I hope to seen some Harry/Molly fallout." Del replies: That would be totally unfair IMO!! Molly did SO MUCH for Harry, and any hurt she caused him was borne out of love and concern for him! (Unlike some of the hurt Sirius caused Harry, by the way...) Molly freely showered Harry with good things and good feelings, so why on Earth should she be punished??? phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Molly was so out of line when it came to Sirius and some of her own family that I hope someone calls her on it. Shooting your mouth off out of 'caring' should only get you so far before someone tells you enough is enough" Del replies: I completely disagree where her family is concerned. Molly is the mother of her family, so it is her duty and her right to say some things. I can't see ANY reason why she should NOT say what she thinks, if she is motivated by love and concern. Just because other people don't want to hear what she has to say doesn't mean she shouldn't say it. Quite the opposite in fact: there must be a REASON why people don't like what she says, and maybe they should reflect on that reason, because it's not necessarily that she's all wrong, maybe quite the opposite in fact. A mother does NOT stop being a mother when her kids hit puberty or something. Molly is the mother, and she will always be the mother, and as long as her kids depend on her for their living, then she is entitled to say her mind. Just my opinion, of course. Del From tinglinger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 21:33:21 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:33:21 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132670 rachaelmcadams > > > > S > > > > P > > > > O > > > > I > > > > L > > > > E > > > > R > > > > > > > > S > > > > P > > > > A > > > > C > > > > E > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > P > > > > O > > > > I > > > > L > > > > E > > > > R > > > > > > > > S > > > > P > > > > A > > > > C > > > > E > > > > tinglinger wrote: there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, and behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) could that knife be Sirius' knife? also a serpent on the door..... Angie wrote: If you are referring to the knife that Sirius gave to Harry, wasn't it a pin-knife? He couldn't have carried that Crocodile Dundee knife in his pocket, could he? Rachael: That knife can't be the knife that Sirius gave Harry because that melted when they tried to pick the lock of the "love/heart" room. tinglinger point taken about the "largeness" of the knife.... however, who says that scene on the back cover takes place in the present? might be someone's pensieve memory.... tinglinger so many theories, 54 hours to go.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Wed Jul 13 21:44:19 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:44:19 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > > > there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, and > behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) (snip) Claire: There is also someone's shadow in the left window of the cottage. If you look at the large version, the person appears totally indistinct except for green eyes. Lily perhaps? I don't really think it's her - the shape seems more male than female. Another relative maybe? Seems like the green eyes are a clue. Does anyone know what color Tom Riddle's eyes were before he became the shadow of Voldemort with red eyes? From jmkearns at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 21:51:45 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:51:45 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: <5b4d8f5b8117.5b81175b4d8f@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132672 > brossiter: > That may very well be true, and they may well not be evil. And > they may not have had loads of time to rummage through the drawer, > picking and choosing among the various tidbits that had been > collected by Filch and his predecessors through the years. John K now: I don't think they had time to even look at what they were grabbing. Remember, Filch was standing there. They caused a diversion by dropping a dungbomb - surely that wouldn't occupy Filch's attention for more than a couple of seconds? They wouldn't have had time to do more than open the drawer a crack, grab whatever was there, stuff it in their robes, and slam the drawer shut. Even THAT would be taking a risk. > brossiter: > But that still doesn't explain why, even in such a short amount of > time, why they picked out what must have appeared as a blank > parchment. John K: In my opinion, it does. > brossiter: > Even if they thought it odd that bare parchment would > be considered "dangerous," there's no explanation as to how they > worked out how to use it ("I solemnly swear...") Scabbers!Peter > is the most likely source for both bits of information, and > there's simply no way the twins could have gotten information out > of the rat unless they were (or became) aware of the rat's true > nature. John K again: Someone has already said in this thread (sorry, don't know who) that they probably just experimented with it until they found something that worked. We've had lots of discussions about the important thing in magic being intent - that if they were intending to use it for mischief, then the exact wording wouldn't matter. Who's to say that these exact words - or any exact words - were the ones the Marauders designed the map to respond to? It's only in the movie that Lupin himself repeats any of them. > brossiter: > Maybe it wasn't out of evil-ness; maybe Peter knew the twins were > hellians who'd get a kick out of the map. But even THAT means > that the twins would have known who & what Scabbers really was > long before the events of PoA, and never once breathed a word of > it. John K: Even this, to me, seems farfetched. Rowling is a quite adept at dropping canon hints at things that aren't what they seem - for example, in hindsight we can easily explain things like Crouch appearing on the marauder's map, or at least see the ambiguity in his actions against Draco and Death Eaters. I just can't imagine her planning something like this without giving us any clues in canon. If Fred and George were truly against Harry, they've had SO many opportunities to do him harm (think of them promising to cause a diversion so he could use Umbridge's fire!) where they have instead proven to be on his side. If they knew Peter's identity and weren't evil, it would have come out once they learned who Sirius Black was. Their actions just don't make any sense when viewed from this perspective, and I can't see the canon to justify it. Just my opinion, John K From Jen at alveymedia.com Wed Jul 13 21:01:47 2005 From: Jen at alveymedia.com (Jennifer Nielsen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:01:47 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More HBP Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132673 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. But he will sacrifice himself, rather than being killed againsthis will, in order to save or help Harry, or fulfill a higher purpose. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? This has been done often enough, but it?s Godric Gryffindor. And Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? It?s Lily?s eyes, which Harry inherited. They are the key to wandless magic,which Harry will need to defeat Voldemort. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape, er Professor Snape. There will be a duel in class between Snape and Harry, and Harry will come out victorious (At least I hope. I would love to read that scene!). Snape will highly resent the DA, and will use his position to try to interfere with it. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody, but he will begin to notice Ginny. Harry gradually realizes throughout the book that Voldemort will go after those he loves, and thus will try to pull further away from his friends. Ginny will be able to see through this, and help him. More below. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman. And he will try to use Harry?s fame to solidify his position. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore?s pensieve. And the pensieve will have greater significance to the plot than will the HBP. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, with a new professor. That?s how he?s able to get in. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and with a new professor, he?ll do very well. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry leaves Privet Drive for his birthday party. It?s at this party he first begins to notice Ginny, who has grown up nicely, and who he hasn?t seen without her robes for a long time. 2. Ginny will either miss or do extremely poorly on her O.W.L.S. due to worry about whatever happens to Harry in June. It is here that she will begin to realize how much she cares for him. 3. Hermione will fail her initial apparation test. This will be a huge embarrassment for her. She will secretly teach Ron and Harry how to apparate before they are of age. That skill will help save one or both at year?s end. 4. Harry is not returning to Privet Drive at the end of the book because he is in serious jeopardy at the end of Book 6. Readers won?t know if he?s okay until Book 7. 5. Draco will join the dark mark as an attempt to gain approval from his father. Harry, through one of his dreams, will know this, and will try to find a way during the book to prove it. 6. Gred and Forge will not only join the Order, their joke shop creations will be tactical weapons against the DE?s. While the DE?s know about stunning spells, etc, they are less prepared for things along the lines of the Ton Tongue Toffee. 7. Neville?s parents will NOT recover, at least in this book, but the significance of the Droobles wrappers will help in the war against Voldemort. 8. Voldemort will learn the full text of the prophecy. He will begin to go after those close to Harry as a way of destroying Harry. 9. Pettigrew and Lupin will do battle, and the silver hand will be the only thing that keeps Lupin from winning. Lupin will struggle for his life through much of the book. 10. Harry will learn that Snape?s Worst Memory has a wider context than he originally saw, and the full story will repair James? image for Harry. Jen From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 13 21:59:48 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:59:48 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I have another question about the Prophecy: > > Since it was ultimately of little consequence that the orb recording > the prophecy was destroyed, why didn't the Order just have Harry go in > and destroy it from the beginning, rather than have people risk their > lives to guard it? Can anyone think of a plausible reason for this? > Were they trying to prevent Harry from learning about the prophecy? > Was it really smart to risk people's lives instead of just letting > Harry in on the secret and foiling Voldemort's attempts to get the > prophecy? I can think of several possible reasons: 1. As others have said, draw the DE's and LV out of hiding. 2. Distract LV and his DE's by having them divert a lot of efforts to trying to get the prophecy. 3. So long as Voldemort does not know the full contents, he will hesitate launching a full fledged attack to kill Harry. Recall that his three (at that point) failed attempts to do just that ended each time with disasterous results to himself (first one of course the loss of his body, second one the loss of his host and the stone, the third one, prematurely reveal his return and reduce his status in the eyes of his DE's). 4. The only way to destroy the prophecy is to get Harry into the DoM, let him take it off the shelf and then destroy it. The order has no means of doing that, not legally in any case. 5. Since the order can't destroy the prophecy, they must prevent LV from taking it, because knowing the full contents will cause him to focus all his efforts into killing Harry (LV does not know Harry is the only one who can kill him and that one can't live while the other survives). Salit From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 22:14:29 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:14:29 -0000 Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132675 > >>Betsy Hp: > > Dumbledore was setting up a trap and the prophecy was the bait. > During OotP, what was Voldemort's main priority? Keeping his > return a secret. > > And what was Dumbledore's main priority? Getting the truth out. > > >>Phoenixgod: > Why would he want Voldemort to come out of hiding though? Harry > isn't ready to kill him and if he wanted Voldemort to just be > revealed why not just stick Harry in front of madame Bones with a > pensieve and let her look at the memories in the graveyard? > Betsy Hp: Why? Because if the WW is aware of Voldemort's return, Voldemort will be *much* more limited in all he's able to do. Suddenly the entire countryside will be filled with wizards and witches questioning any strange happenings. Aurors will stop chasing down Sirius rumors and start concentrating on Voldemort. Most importantly, the WW of Britain (if not beyond) will be fully united in standing against Voldemort. And all of that will mean that when Harry *is* ready to face Voldemort, hopefully Voldemort will be all he's facing. Instead of Voldemort and whole army of fresh Death Eater recruites, and giants, and disgruntled werewolves, and mislead wizards.... As to the pensieve idea, I'm not sure why that wouldn't have worked. Since no one brought up the idea of using a pensieve at Harry's trial I'll assume that they are as infallible as truth serum. In other words, they can be tampered with. And if they can be tampered with no one would trust any pensieve handled by Dumbledore, thanks to Fudge's judicious use of propaganda. JKR has been quite careful with her magic. I've yet to find a universal panacea within the books. Betsy Hp From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 13 22:46:11 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:46:11 -0000 Subject: Woops! Mistake regarding HP and the Catholic church... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: Iris > I don't think the Vatican's official position has changed since > 2003, but if it's not the case, you'll correct me. Meanwhile, I > suppose we Catholic fans can read our favourite books in pacem. > > Amicalement, Geoff: If you go to the the website for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops: www.usccb.org and look for the movie review section, they give extremely detailed reviews of the HP films and of JKR's characters and decide that they pose no threat to Catholic children. Although they are not talking of the books, the reviewers have obviously read them as well as seen the films and are very impartial in their judgements. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 13 23:01:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:01:21 -0000 Subject: Avada Kedvra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: - davenclaw > Finally: Do you think JKR intended for the killing curse to resemble > the cliched magical incantation, "Abracadabra"? I think of that > whenever I read "Avada Kedavra". Geoff: Allow me to point you to a thread on this topic which ran intermittently between messages 84780 and 84908 which might be of interest. From crazytortilla79 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 19:39:12 2005 From: crazytortilla79 at yahoo.com (crazytortilla79) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:39:12 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132678 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E tinglinger wrote: > there are critters in the trees, and to the right, a flying bat, > and behind the bat, a flying owl/bat (can't be sure) > could that knife be Sirius' knife? also a serpent on the door..... > crazytortilla: Doesn't that insignia on the door also look like the symbol on a certain ring on one of the HBP covers? From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 23:16:20 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:16:20 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? was:Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132679 John K: > I don't think they had time to even look at what they were grabbing. Remember, Filch was standing there. They caused a diversion by dropping a dungbomb - surely that wouldn't occupy Filch's attention for more than a couple of seconds? They wouldn't have had time to do more than open the drawer a crack, grab whatever was there, stuff it in their robes, and slam the drawer shut. Even THAT would be taking a risk. Amiable Dorsai: You know, if a mind-blowingly useful item like the Marauder's Map was the *first* thing they were able to grab, I wonder what else was in that filing cabinet? A set of notes on how to become an Animagus? Young Alastor Moody's prototype x-ray specs? Young Tom Riddle's map of Hogwarts? Young Albus Dumbledore's map of Hogwarts? (Yeah, I know, but who knows how long caretakers have been stuffing that drawer ;-) What do you think/hope/dread might be in that drawer? Amiable Dorsai From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 23:22:30 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:22:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's Worst Moment / Snape as Teacher / Snape as Spy (wasRe: Snape's Worst...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132680 Betsy Hp: So I realized that I was so busy pointing out why I disagreed with SSSusan's worst moment for Snape, I never gave one of my own. And since I don't want everyone to think I'm a mindless Snape-apologist (wait -- why the laughter?) let me remedy this now. In OotP I think Snape's worst moment comes when he refuses to teach Harry Occlumency again. It's a bit of an off-page thing, because I don't really blame Snape throwing Harry out of his office, but after he'd had time to calm down, he should have told Harry to return. Yes, the Occlumency wasn't going well. At all. But it was sloppy, especially during a war, for Snape to quit. His other worst moment in OotP actually occurs within the pensieve when he throws that blood drawing hex at James. What a waste of a perfect opportunity! James and Sirius were distracted enough that he was able to get a spell off and he uses it to slash James?!? Surely he could have disarmed them or immobilized them or *something*. Badly done, Snape. Badly done. > >>Greg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132406 > > Harry's grandparent's generation of Slytherin produced LV, Harry's > parent's generation produced his DE's, is 15 years of Snape running > Slytherin house enough to stop the trend? In conclusion, Snape is > going to be judged a good teacher or a bad one, not on the results > his students get on their exams, but the results they get in life. > How many Slytherins of the past 15 years become DE's? How many will > join the Order of the Phoenix? The answer to that, and that alone, > will determine his success as a teacher. Betsy Hp: I agree with Greg. This will be a good ruler to judge Snape's competency by. I saw several replies that said there was no way Snape could influence his Slytherins because it would out him as a supporter of Dumbledore. But I think that underestimates Snape's ability to be subtle. I mean, he's not going to sit Draco down and say, "Your dad's a total idiot, don't do anything he says, and oh by the way, lets keep this between you and me." Instead he'll make statements about choosing your own path, and ask subtle questions that encourage the Slytherins to take a fresh look at some of the Death Eater philosophy. Maybe share some hair- raising tales without seeming to notice that those particular tales don't really fit on a Death Eater recruitment poster. I think Steve Bboyminn has spoken a lot about how a Slytherin could well choose to not follow Voldemort because he's bad for business, or for ambitious folks. Snape could play up that angle without seeming to play up that angle. And this kind of goes towards the Snape as a double agent theory. Because an objection I've seen raised is that if Voldemort did indeed think Snape was *his* spy, then hasn't Snape blown it by *not* sucking up to Harry. The thing is, did Voldemort ever think Snape would make a *good* spy? Because what if there's another Hogwarts spy? (And you can pick your poison here: McGonagall, Lupin, Flitwick, whomever.) Dumbledore had to suspect that Voldemort would try and get an agent into Hogwarts. And Voldemort had to know that Dumbledore would suspect such a thing. So why not send in Snape (that convenient red-herring) who practically *screams* seriously dark wizard here. Give him some throw away information he can feed to Dumbledore (and Dumbledore can then feed to the MoM, in a room of 200 people) and then there he is. Dumbledore now thinks he *knows* who the agent is because Snape is so *obviously* not behind Dumbledore, and he'll stop sniffing around so hard for the *real* agent. (Readers of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series may recognize this ploy as one used by one character to keep his intelligence officer hidden in a city rife with rumors.) And see, Snape (who'd already turned to Dumbledore at this time) can grumble about how he hates Hogwarts because he was bullied there, and he hates teaching potions and would much rather have DADA (which Voldemort would never expect Dumbledore to allow Snape to teach), and get all hysterical whenever a Maurader is brought up, and generally act like a incompetent. And Voldemort will *never* suspect that his red-herring spy, is actually *Dumbledore's* highest placed agent. We've already seen that Snape can seem to have seriously lost his mind, to be running on pure emotion, and yet make a calculated decision. At the end of PoA he was practically frothing at the mouth with Fudge, and yet he still says the children must have been under a Confundis curse. Something I seriously doubt Snape believed at the time. Am I crazy? Betsy Hp From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Wed Jul 13 23:30:26 2005 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:30:26 EDT Subject: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning? Message-ID: <218.4b0d398.3006fe12@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132681 Salit writes: "Since the order can't destroy the prophecy, they must prevent LV from taking it" Why is the Order, or the Death Eaters, unable to destroy the prophecy? I thought that JKR's prophecy rules specifically stated that only the person that the prophecy is about is able to REMOVE it from the DoM (like, pick it up and leave). From what I recall in OotP, Harry, Neville, and company destroyed many, many prohpecies in the DoM while trying to create a diversion and escape the Death Eaters. All of these destroyed glass balls released the speaking forms of their Seers....and spoke their prophecies (although it was all at the same time and just created chaos). Why didn't the Death Eaters simply hear the prophecy themselves and relay its message to Voldemort, instead of returning it to him in its glass ball form? It just seems like a waste of energy to sit around and wait for Harry, when many powerful darkwizard DEs had perfectly good wands that could smash the prophecy from a distance. Also, is there any evidence in canon that the prophecy was indeed the weapon that Voldemort was looking for? It seems almost inconsequential, especially since he knew half of it already. - Po [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 23:16:14 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:16:14 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132682 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Scabbers: Wormtail: a.k.a Peter Pettigrew. I think his back- stabbing days are done! > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe > more.) Dursley, Dudley > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her sister is also a witch. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I have a strong feeling it will be Malfoy, Lucius. Because when things are going all wrong, they tend to get worse before getting any better. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensive. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Surprisingly yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 97% correct. > Predictions (0-10 points each): -Hermione will have a relationship established with Ron. -The house Elves will have a HUGE role with the battle's with the death eaters and Voldemort... They will get inside information, and other important stuff. -Harry will realize he likes Ginny -Ginny will be confused in wanting to be with harry, until the end, when she will decide to be with him From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:33:33 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:33:33 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132683 > Del replies: > Molly is the epitome of the protective mother. Asking her NOT to care > for any parent-less kid around her is illogical IMO. I get that, but there is a difference between caring for Harry and the irrational degree of guardianship she seemed to think she was entitled to. > And personally, if I was Harry or Hermione's mother, I'd be VERY GLAD > that there is *someone* mothering my kid. I would NOT be happy if I > let my teenage kid go to some place under some adult's supervision, > and I learned that s/he had been allowed to, say, watch a porn movie, > and when I ask why this is so to that supposedly responsible adult, I > get told "well, s/he's not *my* kid, is s/he?" That would peeve me off > *greatly* Well, yeah. Watching porn, setting random fires, and doing drugs are are illegal and if Molly didn't stop Harry or any other child from doing those things I would think less of her. But deciding what information should be spread around is a more nebulous event than the one you suggested. Molly has no right to decide how much information Harry can handle. And even she admits that he could handle more than she wanted to give him. she just wanted to keep him sheltered. understandable but unhealthy and with hindsight, ultimately wrong. She was a control freak. She wanted to be the one to parent harry and to dispense information when she wanted to give it out. IMO, she stepped way over bounds with both Harry and Sirius. > Del replies: > Well, I have been told several times that obedience to DD *is* the > standard of goodness in the Potterverse. I'm cheesed off at Dumbledore after OOTP so I am not one of those people. > > As for the jealousy, I find it totally understandable. Molly has been > inviting Harry into her family for several years now. She has showered > him with affection and attention. The Burrow is the only place apart > from Hogwarts where Harry has ever been happy. So it is totally > understandable to me that Molly would feel a bit possessive of Harry, > and consequently a bit jealous that Harry loves Sirius so obviously > more than her. Then she is being irrational and should be called on it. Sirius is Harry's *Godfather*. Best friends with Harry's parents. Keeper of a lot of Harry's past. Probably there when the kid was born. If she is really that resentful of the bond between Harry and Sirius she is truly a reprehensible person. > Del replies: > That would be totally unfair IMO!! Molly did SO MUCH for Harry, and > any hurt she caused him was borne out of love and concern for him! That makes it alright? The worst things I have ever seen a parent do to a child were done out of misguided love. > (Unlike some of the hurt Sirius caused Harry, by the way...) Molly > freely showered Harry with good things and good feelings, so why on > Earth should she be punished??? I don't think I said punished. I just think she should be called on it. Throw those remarks of her back into her face and force her to think about what she says instead of just turing as red as her hair and spouting off. > Del replies: > I completely disagree where her family is concerned. Molly is the > mother of her family, so it is her duty and her right to say some > things. I can't see ANY reason why she should NOT say what she thinks, > if she is motivated by love and concern. Just because other people > don't want to hear what she has to say doesn't mean she shouldn't say > it. Quite the opposite in fact: there must be a REASON why people > don't like what she says, and maybe they should reflect on that > reason, because it's not necessarily that she's all wrong, maybe quite > the opposite in fact. So she is right to bully her husband? She was right to forget about the Twins when she was happy that Ron had become a prefect? so she was right to try and crush the dreams of the twins when they don't fit into her version of what they should do? Molly has the right to raise her kids they way she wants but she goes out of her way to belittle ideas and dreams they have that are not hers. > > A mother does NOT stop being a mother when her kids hit puberty or > something. Molly is the mother, and she will always be the mother, and > as long as her kids depend on her for their living, then she is > entitled to say her mind. Yes she does, but saying her mind does not give her the right to treat the twins they way she does. Or treat Arthur the way she does. Or try to infantalize Harry the way she tries to do. Being a good parent is about supporting your kids and giving them the tools to fufill their dreams, not yours. Something tells me that Molly isn't all that good at that part of the job. phoenixgod2000 From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 23:47:37 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:47:37 -0000 Subject: House Elves HEROES? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132684 I cant help to think about those House Elves and Hermione, so many people take them for granted; moreover, I believe that the people reading these books are not giving them the attention they deserve... Some questions to ponder about in this topic are: -Do House Elves just like making their masters happy, or is it people in general? -Do they like making people in general happy, but do not know it since they are always serving their masters? -If Dobby is so happy, helping in Hogwarts, and especially Harry Potter, cant it be possible for the other House Elves, after some heavy persuasion, to be seduced to stand up for themselves and become hired House Elves? And if so, cant they be persuaded to become insiders, moles, for Dumbledore, so they can know what is going on in every Death Eaters house? And my answer to all the above question is YES... I believe the House Elves are going to portray their true value in this upcoming war... They will not only help as insiders, but their true powers will be used for the greater good. For all we know, these House Elves can become to be serious bodyguards, street fighters, or even secret agents. Any who, time will tell, and I am counting the days till its time to pack our bags and head to Kings Cross, to Platform 9 1/2 and on to the Hogwarts Express. Hogwarts HERE WE COME!!! Att: Dilia Pacheco Mendez From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:09:03 2005 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:09:03 -0000 Subject: HBP predictions contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132685 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think that in the next book we will lose a Weasley, a teacher, family members of other students, and possibly a Dursley. My bets are on Charlie or Percy, or one of the Parents, and one of the House Heads. We might lose some government too, my bets including Ludo Bagman, and Cornelius Fudge 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I think that the half-blood prince is Hagrid. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily's big secret is that she performed some sort of charm to make her eyes special and it carried through to Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Kingsley Shacklebolt. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, ever. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Umbridge, or depending on how things worked out with her and how their government is structured maybe even Percy. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Something new entirely, my bet is that it is used to help Harry realize what he needs to defeat Voldemort. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. By the end of this book Harry will have emotionally cut himself off from all of his friends, because he knows that after the defeat of Voldemort he won't be the same, but they all continue to work with him anyway. 2. The wizard genealogy book will make a significant reappearance, as will Kreacher. 3. Ron will again become jealous of Harry, but this time the rift will not fully heal. 4. Dumbledore will not be at Hogwart's for the entire term if at all. 5. Something will happen to Neville's parents, probably a possible recupperation, and then another attempted murder to keep them from giving away something unexpected. Serial Lurker, psychobirdgirl From pastafor5 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:21:08 2005 From: pastafor5 at yahoo.com (pastafor5) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:21:08 -0000 Subject: More HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132686 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Snape (the adult-cover leads me to think there is something very big involving Snape in HBP) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Snape or the new DADA teacher. 3. What is Lily's big secret? I don't think there is necessarily a "big secret" about Lily, but I think we'll find out that Petunia has been given some kind of magic charm to help her keep her house so spotless. It was most likely given as a kind of "payment" for taking Harry in. I don't believe she can do magic herself, but that someone has given her "magic" to use. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The mysterious "old-lion" man, who is possibly a very old friend of Dumbledore's. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think Harry will have a developing relationship with Ginny. It will most likely be very gradual, leading to something more serious in the last book. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore?s pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, which will irritate Snape to no end. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and will do better with his own wand (rather than his father's). 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 (he didn't finish the Astonomy or History of Magic tests, so he might not have done enough to pass.) Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will inherit Sirius' house and will give it to the order. 2. Hermione and Ron will officially become a couple. 3. Grawp will not like Ron because of his relationship with Hermione. Grawp has a bit of a "crush" on Hermione. 3. Harry, Ron and Hermione will be given permission to use magic as needed (not have to wait to become-of-age). 4. Fred and George's inventions will be very useful in the fight against Voldemort. 5. Hermione will help Neville figure out a secret message his mum is trying to give him through the candy wrappers. 6. Lupin will want revenge for the loss of his friends. He will kill either Pettigrew or Belatrix. 7. Ron will become Quidditch captain because Harry has too much to deal with. Ginny will become a Chaser and Harry will be reinstated as Seeker. 8. Grawp will be killed as he protects Hermione in a Death-eater battle. 9. Harry will learn that he can do wandless magic, but will have difficulty controling it. 10. Bill Weasley will be instrumental in bringing the trolls to Dumbledore's side. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:22:24 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:22:24 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132687 phoenixgod2000: > Yes she does, but saying her mind does not give her the right to treat the twins they way she does. Or treat Arthur the way she does. Or try to infantalize Harry the way she tries to do. Being a good parent is about supporting your kids and giving them the tools to fufill their dreams, not yours. Something tells me that Molly isn't all that good at that part of the job. Amiable Dorsai: It's too bad, really. Harry could use a parent, an authority figure he trusts, to look out for him and to set boundaries, as any teenager would. Though I think you're too harsh, you make good points about Molly. So who else has he got? Lupin? I love him dearly, but he's a yes-man. He might be Harry's bud, but not his father. Dumbledore? Maybe, but there are a lot of fences to be mended there, and I don't see how Harry can ever be sure that Dumbledore is looking out for Harry, and not The Prophecy Child. Mr. Weasley? Possibly, he's raised at least 5 decent sons (and Percy may yet come around), but he seems to take a back seat to Molly. Minerva? Too distant. Snape? Thanks for the laugh. Molly would actually be a pretty good candidate. She's tough, yes, but so is Harry and he can stand up to her when he thinks she's wrong. There's no question that she wants the best for Harry. Molly may need to learn a few boundaries of her own, but once they sort that out, she might just what Harry needs. Especially since Arthur comes as part of the package. Amiable Dorsai From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 14 00:23:45 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:23:45 -0000 Subject: Where do these stories start? In-Reply-To: <20050713171735.93223.qmail@web80109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132688 --- Christine Whittaker wrote: > > rochesteruponmedway wrote: > >>I have just been solemnly informed that the first three books > were written by Jo's ex husband and that he invented the name > quidditch. > >>Where do these extraordinary ideas come from? This is probably > old stuff but I was still shocked that anyone should produce this > as gospel. > >>How am I going to answer this idiot? > > Sylvia > > Hi Sylvia! > > I would say this story is right up there with JKR's cousin stating he is the inspiration of Harry Potter, he looks like him, etc. Like JKR, I think you should consider the source and put it in the "rubbish bin". :-) > > Chris (flowerchild4) aussie: 2 lines of arguement - a) Divorces are usually messy and painful. So the 1st husband doesn't write those 3 books, and only gets interested after his ex- wife becomes a squilllionaire. Does he applaud her or look for his slice of the pie? b) Jo's site: http://www.jkrowling.com/en/thankyou.cfm The coffee mug link takes you to Extra Stuff including Characters. Under Gilderoy Lockhart, she answers this line of accusation. "... He's probably out there now telling everyone that he inspired the character of Albus Dumbledore. Or that he wrote the books and lets me take the credit out of kindness." I must also point out that the Gilderoy she speaks of was not modelled after her 1st Husband (see the link from Gum Wrapper / Rubbish / Pure Garbage) aussie: From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:29:16 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:29:16 -0000 Subject: The Reason Snape is such a miserable git..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132689 ---Demetra wrote: > 4. Shipping - I predict Harry/Luna > > I think it is telling that in those last few pages of OotP, when > Harry was so miserable, JKR specifically has him spend time with > Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Neville and Hagrid. He feels no better after > being with them. In fact, the moment when he starts to feel better > is after his conversation with Luna. It starts out as pity. But > then Harry admits that he didn't mind talking to Luna about Sirius. > Then at the conclusion of the conversation Harry feels as though the > weight in his stomach had lessened. > For whatever reason, on some level Harry connects with Luna. > Spending time with her eases some of his pain. Who better to ship > Harry with then the person who seems able to bring him a sense of > peace. > > Angie here: For some unknown reason, I was having random thoughts about Luna today, so this post gave me the opportunity to get it out of my head. Your observation that Harry connects with Luna is dead on (pardon the pun) and I do believe it is leading somewhere. However, that connection is, shall we say, intermittent, limited to those times when Luna is, shall we say, Lucid? She reminds me of people I see in a nursing home. You start talking to them and they seem to be with it and then, bam, they are off in another world. I think Harry needs someone a bit more, um, solid and dependable for a girlfriend. I think Luna's quirks would soon get on Harry's nerves. But I do believe she will become a closer friend to Harry and will help Harry learn to cope with Sirius's death. Maybe they'll have a short-term fling while Ginny's busy with Dean and then -- bam -- in Book 7 Harry will finally fall for Ginny! From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:31:21 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:31:21 -0000 Subject: Avada Kedvra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132690 davenclaw wrote: > > > Finally: Do you think JKR intended for the killing curse to resemble > > the cliched magical incantation, "Abracadabra"? I think of that > > whenever I read "Avada Kedavra". > She did. At the Edinborough Book Festival in August 2004 she said, "It (Avada Kedavra)is an ancient spell in Aramaic, and it is the original of abracadabra, which means "let the thing be destroyed." Originally it was used to cure illness and the "thing" was the illness, but I decided to make it the "thing" as in the person standing in front of me. I take a lot of liberties with things like that. I twist them round and make them mine." Inkling From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:38:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:38:42 -0000 Subject: Why Dean as Ginny's Next Boyfriend? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132691 JKR could have chosen any boy from any grade and any house to be Ginny's next boyfriend. I think it is significant that JKR chose not only a Griffyndor as Ginny's next boyfriend, but also one in Harry's grade and in his extended circle of friends. This will mean that Harry is "exposed" to Ginny's love life much more so than he has been in the past. He's been able to ignore it before because it hasn't been under his nose, but now . . . . I can see Ginny and Dean sitting closely on the couch by the fire in the common room or studying at the same table and then Harry finding to his surprise that such scenes bother him. He may even overhear Dean talking about how wonderful Ginny is and feel a pang of jealousy. Or perhaps Ron will drop not-so subtle hints to Harry about how he wishes Ginny would find a different boyfriend than Dean. (Not even to mention if Dean turned out to be the HBP.) Does anyone else think the choice of Dean is significant? Angie (who apologizes if she has exceeded her posting-maximum) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 01:34:39 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:34:39 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132692 Phoenixgod: > So she is right to bully her husband? She was right to forget about > the Twins when she was happy that Ron had become a prefect? so she > was right to try and crush the dreams of the twins when they don't > fit into her version of what they should do? Molly has the right to > raise her kids they way she wants but she goes out of her way to > belittle ideas and dreams they have that are not hers. Alla: You know what I just realised? If I were to nominate Molly's worst moment in the books, I would not pick her believing Rita Skeeter's lies about Harry and Hermione, I would not pick her running her mouth at Sirius ( although I definitely wanted to slap her many times over that one) No, my number one choice would be her forgetting about twins. I mean everything else I could explain by her understanding of love, jealousy of Sirius, etc. I cannot justify , but at least I can explain those moments. Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find close to unforgivable. I even can understand her yelling at twins about joke shop. She was probably very concerned that they won't have a steady job after graduation, but forgetting about them, no I cannot understand that. I guess there is an explanation for that, but I just don't see any. Would welcome one. Now, having said all that, I DO like Molly. If for nothing else, for the wonderful children she brought up, so she must have been doing a lot of things right. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From vividscribbler at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:10:30 2005 From: vividscribbler at yahoo.com (vividscribbler) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:10:30 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (WAS Re: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning?) In-Reply-To: <218.4b0d398.3006fe12@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132693 Po: > Also, is there any evidence in canon that the prophecy was indeed the weapon > that Voldemort was looking for? It seems almost inconsequential, especially > since he knew half of it already. > > - Po Viv: Yup, I just finished rereading OOTP today, and spotted this: "This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." -Dumbledore, American version of OOTP, pg 840 (CH 37) This comment makes me wonder, though. Dumbledore clearly states that Voldemort only heard the beginning lines of the prophecy, ("The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those that have thirce defied him, born as the seventh month dies...). However, just from hearing those words, and assuredly, frothing over it as Voldemort has apparently done for the past 16 years, the prophecy doesn't strike as the place to find out how to defeat Harry. Quite the opposite; if I were Voldemort, I would assume it held the information about my own demise. So then wouldn't it have been more accurate to say he wanted to find out how Harry might defeat him, so he could safeguard against the possibility? Or did Voldemort have other information that would lead him to believe information about Harry's defeat could be found inside that specific prophecy? Was that even Voldemort's intention, or was he simply curious, and didn't bother to fetch it himself because it wasn't important enough to risk his skin for? If that were the case, why did he materilize at the MOM at all, (i.e., for the convienent chance to off Harry)? Futher, it seems to me that it would have been very easy for Voldemort to sneak into the Ministry and remove the prophecy. After all, no one was alerted that a handful of the most wanted Death Eaters were in residence. In fact, no one was even alerted of Voldemort's precense until two of the statues from the fountain fetched Fudge and his aurors. For example, there evidently were not have been any alarms in the Hall of Prophecy to signal when one was removed or damanged, nor any in the DOM in general, nor any relating to raising the aurors that deranged escapees were roaming the Ministry, much less Voldemort himself. Or at least, none that couldn't be negated for a suffient amount of time. Wouldn't the trip have been much faster if Voldemort had simply siezed the prophecy himself? It seems as though it would have been easier to orchestrate, and make a lot more sense than the plan of luring Harry there. What take that route? Where there further ulterior motives than we know about? Anyhow, those are my thoughts, Viv From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 14 01:24:24 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:24:24 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132694 --- > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > > Claire: > There is also someone's shadow in the left window of the cottage. > If you look at the large version, the person appears totally > indistinct except for green eyes. Lily perhaps? I don't really > think it's her - the shape seems more male than female. Another > relative maybe? Seems like the green eyes are a clue. Does anyone > know what color Tom Riddle's eyes were before he became the shadow > of Voldemort with red eyes? houyhnhnm: These are all the references I can find to Tomm Riddle's appearance or eyes in CoS (Scholastic American edition). Inside the diary: "A boy of about sixteen entered, taking off his pointed hat. A silver prefect's badge was glinting on his chest. He was much taller than Harry, but he, too, had jet black hair." (p. 243) Inside the chamber: "A tall black haired boy was leaning against the nearest pillar watching." (p. 307) "---Riddle's eyes glinted---" "All the time he spoke, Riddle's eyes never left Harry's face. There was an almost hungry look in them." (p.309) "His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead, and their expression grew hungrier." (p. 311) "There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now." (p. 313) So I guess he *could* have had green eyes. From larriepam2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 02:21:07 2005 From: larriepam2000 at yahoo.com (larriepam2000) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:21:07 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132695 > > > Alla: No, my number one choice would be her > forgetting about twins. > > Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find close > to unforgivable. > > Alla. Alla, This bothered me too, alot. But then after many readings of OotP at the end where they all meet Harry at the train with the twins dress in their finest suits, I got to thinking maybe Molly sees all of her kids as Prefects. Something a Mother would do. Anyway that's how I deal with it. Pam From jbillygirl at go.com Thu Jul 14 02:38:14 2005 From: jbillygirl at go.com (jbillygirl) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:38:14 -0000 Subject: Some fearless predictions (probably wrong) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132696 As HBP-Day is almost upon us, I wanted to throw out a few thoughts that I've had about future developments. Most of these ideas are about Snape, because I find him the most intriguing character to speculate on. Many of them I think will also happen in Book 7, not HBP. It may include some spoilers about a death that is rumored to occur. (If you don't recognize my handle, that's probably because I've never posted here before. I also haven't gotten to read most of the posts here, so my thoughts may well overlap with those of others. So please be kind.) :) I think the HBP may well be Godric Gryffindor, or one of his descendants. The description of the unknown man as an "old lion" would fit in well with Gryffindor somehow, as the lion is the Gryffindor house animal/symbol. I don't think the school will be closed for the seventh year, as some have predicted. I think JKR will want to take us through the NEWTs, partly in order to parallel British high school students and their "A level" tests. The school year also imposes a story structure we've become familiar with, and I'm not sure JKR would want to dispense with that altogether. The school year may well be disrupted, however. Also, Hogwarts may be invaluable to the plot as protected ground, which I think it would so be even if the rumored death takes place. As for Snape, I think he'll become the DADA prof in Harry's 7th year. (It seems like that may be a situation that could be sustained for only one year, and I do think Snape will be alive in book 7.) Not only that, I predict that Snape will tutor Harry in the use of Unforgivable Curses, though he won't enjoy doing it. I know that Harry is not a Dark wizard, and maybe he's too good a person to do them well. But IIRC Prof. Flitwick has said that just because a wizard (Dumbledore?) doesn't use the Dark Arts doesn't mean he doesn't know how, so being good may not rule out knowledge of the UCs. Also, Lord Voldemort has apparently gone to great lengths to protect himself from death, and if Harry is to defeat him, he may need every weapon available, especially Avada Kedavra. This tutoring may come to pass as a result of the rumored death, which could leave Snape as the only person who could be halfway trusted with such lessons, the rest of those with knowledge of Dark Magic being on the opposing side. It would be a development ripe with possibilities for conflicts between Snape and Harry. I've imagined a scene in which Snape, in his office, is trying to get Harry to perform a decent Cruciatus curse on something, some kind of unpleasant animal. Because Harry is fundamentally good, he is failing badly at producing this particular curse, which may be the cruelest of the three UCs. Then Snape gets an idea: he invites Harry to perform the curse on himself (that is, on Snape). But while Harry has indeed fantasized about doing just that, he refuses, afraid of using such evil magic even on someone he despises. With a smirk, Snape goads Harry, saying, "You know you want to." But as Harry continues to refuse, Snape pulls out every horrible thing he can think of to say to Harry, making him madder and madder. Finally Snape levels a terribly cruel insult at Harry's "mudblood mother," and Harry loses it. He unleashes the Cruciatus curse on Snape, watching him twist and writhe in agony. For a few seconds, Harry performs the curse all too well, feeling that Snape deserves it and, well, he asked for it. But shortly Harry realizes just what he is doing and recoils in horror from Snape and from his own violent fury. Breaking the curse, he runs from the room in terror. When he meets Snape again, Snape chastises him for running away, but he does admit that Harry's Cruciatus was effective. Snape tells Harry, "Remember that dark place where you were -- you may need to find it again." Harry resents Snape anew for having brought him so close to such darkness; at the same time, however, his desire for revenge on Snape has been wiped away. OK, that was too much verbiage. I'll keep the rest short. I also have a wild notion that the Sorting Hat may have considered putting Snape in Gryffindor (witness his bravery in turning spy for DD), but Snape was so appalled at the idea that he kept thinking, "Not Gryffindor, not Gryffindor..." One last crazy notion: in book 7, Snape will seem to have betrayed the side of good, but in the end he will come through against Voldemort. He will suffer a serious injury in the climactic battle, and despite Snape's protestations to let him die, Harry rescues him - - to Snape's great chagrin, as he will once again owe his life to a Potter. Ok, that's enough. Thanks for putting up with my scrawlings. Two more days! :) JBG From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 03:32:21 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:32:21 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132697 Alla: > You know what I just realised? If I were to nominate Molly's worst > moment in the books... ... No, my number one choice would be > her forgetting about twins. > I guess there is an explanation for that, but I just don't see any. > Would welcome one. zgirnius replies: Yes, that bothered me too. Technically, though, she also forgot about Ginny... I finally decided she didn't really forget any of them. She just meant, everybody in her family who might have had a hope/aspiration of being a prefect. The twins clearly do not, and have not for as long as we can see. They were 2nd years when we first saw them, I think (since they are 6th years in Book 5), and already it was clear they weren't interested in prefecthood. And Ginny was plain ineligible at that point, as a 4th year. A slip of the tongue. I have a mere 2 kids, and I manage to address one or the other of them by the wrong name all the time. (And soon they might get old enough to notice...) It's still not totally great since her whole reaction to prefecthood for each of her kids clearly shows that is the only path she accepts for her kids...this is fine for younger kids, they need to know their parents value education so that they would make some affort at school, but once the twins are 6th years and of age, some openness to who they have turned out to be and their aspirations would be nice. But I think she will come around, eventually. Especially as the twinds appear to be making a success of their venture. From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 14 04:30:44 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:30:44 -0000 Subject: Insects on the cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132698 On the backcover art , there is a spider's web just where Dumbledore's hand is resting. And yes, on the trunk of the tree beside Harry, amid those violet patches, there is a small bug crawling. Is it a beetle? Rita Skeeter? Adi From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 14 04:23:06 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:23:06 -0000 Subject: Summarising the back cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132699 hi, After staring at the back cover intently, after some time this is I all found in it. Harry and Dumbledore are on one side. There is this man with a cane. And to the farthest right, there is a white face which is looking in and there is a shadow in the window. At least, there are five persons. Over the head of Dumbledore, there is an owl. On the branch below the owl, there is a bigger bird. Could be a phoenix. Near them there is a knife stuck in a tree. If you look carefully, there is a white longish blob on the other side of cover which is stuck horizontally in a vertical column, so that may be another knife. There is not one but many bats. I counted at least four. So Snape being one of them is ruled out. The cottage: It has three window on the front and one high window to the side. There seem to two skyholes in the room giving it an odd apearance of car headlights. One its door, there is weird mark of inverted S. Over the top right of the second window from left, there is a heart shaped marking. Could be a giant key? The first window from the left has a shadow in it. There is a difference in the windows. The two windows on the left do not seem to have any shutters where as the window to the right seems to have a shutter which has been opened. the window to the side has an awning like structure covering it. Out of the thid window there is a vapour escaping, which has a shape like a swan or a duck. But beside the same window there is huge whitish blob which is a like a tablet of some kind and it's oddly placed too. The Man: There is man likely going into the cottage holding a long cane. He is dressed in a coat and has a hat. The entire picture seems like a depiction of one scene. because, it's Dumbledore and harry peeking in from the left, there is another man peeking in from the right and there is a man walking upto the cottage. A patronus like thing is escaping from the cottage while there is yet another person insdie the cottage. Bats are swarming all over the place. There are at least two other birds which are on Dumbledore's side of the cover. There are at least two types of markings. One inverted S on the door and big heart shaped marking on the second left window. So what can it all mean? Bye Adi From eileennicholson at aol.com Thu Jul 14 05:15:11 2005 From: eileennicholson at aol.com (eileennicholson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:15:11 EDT Subject: Reposting - Revised HBP Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132700 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore, at the end of book 6 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily's big secret won't get revealed until Book 7 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Moody 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. But it won't be close or a source of comfort - he'll be too afraid of what would happen to anyone who gets caught up in his relationship with Voldemort. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I'd love it to be Amelia Bones, but I think it'll be Amos Diggory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1.Ron and Hermione ship 2.It turns out that Sirius was being fed a Confusing/Befuddlement Draught by Kreacher and that Black was pushed through the veil by someone other than Bellatrix Lestrange. 3.It turns out that Fudge intended Sirius to escape from Azkaban and helped contrive this 4.Harry and Luna get a lot closer and go through some adventures together - Luna and Harry start working as a team 5. Harry tries to bring Black back, through a something with a mirror-like surface (might even be a mirror!) We learn more about both the prank and the events at Godric's Hollow Fawkes comes to Harry after Hedwig dies The Tonks we saw at Grimmauld Place through OotP is not a Black Eileen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 14 05:47:27 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:47:27 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: <42D53FD9.2020608@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heather the buzzard wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Angie wrote: > > >>You can find a high-res picture on Veritaserum.head and what > >looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. The mystery > is there any possibility it might be #12 Grimmauld Place? I definitely think it's a pensieve memory, though...otherwise perhaps it's the DE equivalent of the OoP.....I don't think it's Pettigrew...wouldn't he approach as a rat? Susan From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 14 00:15:32 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:15:32 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132702 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Karen Barker wrote: > I think I can see figures behind Harry and DD to the left. If you > follow the branch that Harry's hand is on to where it forks into 3 > and follow the right hand fork round where it curves back to the > left and crosses the central fork there seems to be a face (or > possibly the Dark Mark) in the space between it and the branch > above. If you then go back to the fork into three and follow the > left hand branch, there seems to be another face with bushey hair >in the gap between that branch and the one above (which is the original rh fork which bends left) to the left of the first face I mentioned. houyhnhnm: I can see the first face you describe but not the second. I also see a giant face that fills up the whole area behind the parallel branches. The first face you describe is part of its mustache or beard (It is very hairy). The nose is right above that and the eyes are in the two loops of a "w" formed by the branches. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 06:52:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:52:21 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132703 Geoff: You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the same..... In addition to the meaning intended, a second meaning of "drawers" is a now old-fashioned one of "knickers". So it is quite common for comedians to refer to someone looking in their drawers as a method of producing gales of laughter and it invoked in my imagination visions of Filch on a par with Snape with a stuffed vulture on his hat and a big, red handbag. Excuse me while I slap my wrists hard and go off to snigger in a quiet corner. I think I am suffering from an attack of PHSS (Pre-HBP Silly Syndrome). :-) From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu Jul 14 04:08:18 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:08:18 -0000 Subject: Some fearless predictions (probably wrong) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jbillygirl" > > I don't think the school will be closed for the seventh year, as > some have predicted. I think JKR will want to take us through the > NEWTs, partly in order to parallel British high school students and > their "A level" tests. The school year also imposes a story > structure we've become familiar with, and I'm not sure JKR would > want to dispense with that altogether. The school year may well be > disrupted, however. Also, Hogwarts may be invaluable to the plot as > protected ground, which I think it would so be even if the rumored > death takes place. > Well, I assume you mean Dumbledore's death, which so many have predicted. I agree that Hogwarts will not close and will continue to be important. It will be interesting to see how NEWTS are handled in the midst of a war. Personally, I think we will see the NEWTS, which implies that the war will not be the "big battle" kind of affair that many have assumed, but more of a smoldering crisis with lots of terrorist acts and hit-and-run tactics. > Not only that, I predict that Snape will tutor Harry in the use of > Unforgivable Curses, though he won't enjoy doing it. I know that > Harry is not a Dark wizard, and maybe he's too good a person to do > them well. But IIRC Prof. Flitwick has said that just because a > wizard (Dumbledore?) doesn't use the Dark Arts doesn't mean he > doesn't know how, so being good may not rule out knowledge of the > UCs. > I've imagined a scene in which Snape, in his office, is trying to > get Harry to perform a decent Cruciatus curse on something, some > kind of unpleasant animal. > When he meets Snape again, Snape chastises him for running away, but he does > admit that Harry's Cruciatus was effective. Snape tells > Harry, "Remember that dark place where you were -- you may need to > find it again." Harry resents Snape anew for having brought him so > close to such darkness; at the same time, however, his desire for > revenge on Snape has been wiped away. That's an interesting scenario, but it really doesn't sound very much like JKR. Given her depiction of the Dark Arts and her avowedly moralistic approach, I seriously doubt we'll ever see Harry learning to use the Unforgiveables, and still less that he will have to use that "dark place inside" as you say. I think much more likely will be that his victory comes from rejecting such a dark place -- which I realize you also seem to agree with to an extent. Also I seriously doubt that Snape is as noble of a character as your scenario predicates. > > OK, that was too much verbiage. I'll keep the rest short. I also > have a wild notion that the Sorting Hat may have considered putting > Snape in Gryffindor (witness his bravery in turning spy for DD), but > Snape was so appalled at the idea that he kept thinking, "Not > Gryffindor, not Gryffindor..." Cute idea, but I don't know how we would ever learn about that unless the Sorting Hat gets careless (Snape certainly wouldn't mention it). > > One last crazy notion: in book 7, Snape will seem to have betrayed > the side of good, but in the end he will come through against > Voldemort. He will suffer a serious injury in the climactic battle, > and despite Snape's protestations to let him die, Harry rescues him - > - to Snape's great chagrin, as he will once again owe his life to a > Potter. > Once again, a very popular scenario. And once again, I doubt very much that Snape will revealed to be so noble as you suppose. Lupinlore From jcf at ieee.org Thu Jul 14 04:58:03 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:58:03 -0700 Subject: What conversations do you MOST want to see in HBP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132705 Draco: A 'clever plan?' You're in Gryffindor! You lot's idea of a Clever Plan is 'everyone, on the count of three!' [Misquoted from somebody's fan fic. I fancied it.] Voldy: Avada Kedavra! Harry: Um...? Voldy: Wierd. Voldy: Avada Kedavra! (turns into a giant canary) Harry: Um...? Fred: One galleon buys a set of ten. Hermione: Avada Kedavra! (Voldemort dies.) Harry: Um...? Firenze: Prophecy, schmophecy. Voldemort: With this large and clunky amulet, I shall crus-- (disappears) Harry: Um...? Mr. Weasley: Well, I attached a time-turner to a battery-powered fan. On 6/20/05, firebird wrote: > Hermione to Ron: I'm sick of studying; let's go tickle the giant > squid. Harry: Oh, that's what you call it? (Sorry.) -John From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jul 14 08:08:53 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:08:53 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D6AA35.10417.7589552@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 132706 On 13 Jul 2005 at 21:15, delwynmarch wrote: > So personally, I support Molly in her substitute-mothering of Harry > and Hermione. As do I. I admit to some concerns about it, but to me the following is the key: "'Well,' said Mrs Weasley, breathing deeply and looking around the table for support that did not come, 'well... I can see I'm going to be overruled. I'll just say this: Dumbledore must have had his reasons for not wanting Harry to know too much, and speaking as someone who has Harry's best interests at heart -' 'He's not your son,' said Sirius quietly. 'He's as good as,' said Mrs Weasley fiercely." (OotP, p.85) "He did not look at Mrs Weasley. He had been touched by what she had said about his being as good as a son, but he was also impatient with her mollycoddling. Sirius was right, he was not a child." (OotP, p.86) "Harry watched them go, feeling slightly uneasy. It had just occurred to him that Mr and Mrs Weasley would want to know how Fred and George were financing their joke shop business when, as was inevitable, they finally found out about it. Giving the twins his Triwizard winnings had seemed a simple thing to do at the time, but what if it led to another family row and a Percy-like estrangement? Would Mrs Weasley still feel that Harry was as good as her son if she found out he had made it possible for Fred and George to start a career she thought quite unsuitable?" (OotP, p.156-157) Mrs Weasley has willingly given Harry just about the most precious thing he could possibly have. Sirius took on a role as surrogate parent to Harry, certainly, but he was prevented from doing that as much as I am sure he would have liked (and I must say I also feel Molly was way out of line in pointing that out, when she did), and he also had a duty to do it, and a link through friendship - I don't seek to cheapen what he did, but would he have done it without those links? Molly simply did it without any real connection - she simply embraced it. And yes, she does mollycoddle Harry to an extent - but she does it in the same way as she does it to her own children. And though Harry is impatient with it, he also understands what she has given him - and he *wants* it. He fears losing it. This isn't something he doesn't want - he values it, as can be seen in the third quote above. "Mrs. Weasley set the potion down on the bedside cabinet, bent down, and put her arms around Harry. He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother. The full weight of everything he had seen that night seemed to fall in upon him as Mrs. Weasley held him to her. His mother s face, his father's voice, the sight of Cedric, dead on the ground all started spinning in his head until he could hardly bear it, until he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him." (GoF, p.620). *This* is what Mrs Weasley has given Harry - and it is hard for me to imagine anything on this Earth that could be more precious to him. Does she have her faults? She certainly does - but *nothing* that even comes within a country mile of comparing to this, in my view. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 09:20:39 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:20:39 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132707 Geoff Bannister > You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the same..... Amiable Dorsai: Oh dear... So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? Amiable Dorsai From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 09:46:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:46:07 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > Geoff Bannister > > You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title > of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the same..... > > Amiable Dorsai: > > Oh dear... > > So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? > > Amiable Dorsai Geoff: Well, Argus may keep boxer shorts in his box rather than knickers. It's a bit more manly...... From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 09:49:18 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:49:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: From Luna to Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132709 Angie, commenting on how Harry and Luna seem to connect: "However, that connection is, shall we say, intermittent, limited to those times when Luna is, shall we say, Lucid? She reminds me of people I see in a nursing home. You start talking to them and they seem to be with it and then, bam, they are off in another world." Right, but Luna's something of an air person, she doesn't have a dementia. IOW, she can change, maybe. Your point that Luna's quirks might get on Harry's nerves is well taken, but we have to consider that Harry might be good for Luna in the same way she's good for him. We haven't had a chance to see that yet. I've always had a soft spot for eccentrics like Luna, maybe because I admire people who have the courage to go their own way without worrying too much what other people think. Eccentrics often have a high degree of happiness for just that reason. I've always thought the point of that scene is that it is compassion for someone else that begins to recall Harry to his humanity. More of the power that Voldemort knows not, IOW. Angie again: "But I do believe she will become a closer friend to Harry and will help Harry learn to cope with Sirius's death. Maybe they'll have a short-term fling while Ginny's busy with Dean and then -- bam -- in Book 7 Harry will finally fall for Ginny!" Maybe! Luna seems attracted to Ron, though, so that under your scenario while Ron is figuring out Hermione is too intense for him, Harry and Luna share some time. I do believe that you're 100% right that Harry will always have Luna in his heart, no matter how romance turns out. As for Ginny, I was an H/G shipper before I was H/H, and still have no problem with H/G at all. As a matter of fact, I claim authorship of the __H/P Shippers' Daily Affirmation:__ "Say it loud, we're corny and we're proud! We love Her-my-o-ninny, but we're gonna root for Ginny!" Jim Ferer P.S. The "we're corny" part was a reference to many listie's revulsion at the saccharine possibilities of the One Big Happy Weasley Family concept. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 10:17:17 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:17:17 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132710 phoenixgod2000 wrote: "I get that, but there is a difference between caring for Harry and the irrational degree of guardianship she seemed to think she was entitled to." Del replies: Er, are we talking LOVE here, or are we not? Because love, *by definition*, IS irrational. Just like it was completely irrational for Harry to "fall in love" (no romantic meaning implied) with a godfather he barely knew, it is indeed completely irrational for Molly to love and care for Harry as much as she does. So what?? As for guardianship, Molly was simply continuing on the previous years. Whenever Harry was at the Burrow, Molly WAS his guardian. She was also Hermione's guardian when Hermione was there. So when Harry and Hermione come at 12GP, it seems perfectly logical to me that Molly would continue assuming her guardian role towards them. I also think you're making the common mistake of assuming that every HP character knows what's going on in Harry's heart and mind. We the readers DO know how much Sirius counts for Harry. We learn right at the beginning of GoF that Sirius is the parent-like figure Harry had been looking for. But nobody else knows that (except maybe for Ron and Hermione)! In particular, throughout GoF, *Molly* does NOT know ANYTHING about Sirius, and much less how much Sirius counts for Harry, how much Harry looks up to his godfather. When Harry arrives at 12GP, Molly has known about the very EXISTENCE of Sirius for barely ONE MONTH, and though she and Sirius had some talks about Harry, I strongly doubt she's figured out what kind of relationship he and Harry have. In particular, she seems extremely worried that Sirius is not loving Harry for Harry, but as some kind of reincarnation of James. And as it turns out, she is not *completely* wrong... phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Well, yeah. Watching porn, setting random fires, and doing drugs are are illegal and if Molly didn't stop Harry or any other child from doing those things I would think less of her. But deciding what information should be spread around is a more nebulous event than the one you suggested." Del replies: Well, I chose watching porn *precisely* because it is NOT illegal in my country (not as far as I know anyway), so it IS a very nebulous event :-) You're talking about that information as though it were harmless information. But it's not. It is potentially very damaging information for Harry. We're talking about the psychopathic terrorist who killed Harry's parents, tried to kill him, tortured him, killed his schoolmate, and is now trying to find a way to get rid of him, and take over the country. We're talking about something even worse than telling one of Ted Bundy's victims who would have miraculously escaped him that he is bent on capturing her again and killing her for good this time. A 15-year-old victim, barely a month after the initial abduction, AND right after she's demonstrated that she's not in her normal state by yelling at the top of her lungs at her two best friends (something she'd never done before). I'm sorry, but I *completely* understand that Molly didn't want that talk to take place just yet. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Molly has no right to decide how much information Harry can handle. " Del replies: That's not what she's doing. She is only fighting to make sure Sirius follows DD's orders. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "she just wanted to keep him sheltered. understandable but unhealthy and with hindsight, ultimately wrong. She was a control freak. She wanted to be the one to parent harry and to dispense information when she wanted to give it out. IMO, she stepped way over bounds with both Harry and Sirius." Del replies: 1. Keeping children sheltered IS part of being a parent. Deciding how much they should be sheltered is one of the trickiest things to figure out for a parent. 2. It is NOT unhealthy per se to shelter kids. Quite the opposite in fact: it IS unhealthy NOT to shelter kids at all, especially about traumatising things, as Molly was afraid Sirius was about to do. 3. Molly was following DD's lead. If anyone was a control freak, it was DD, not Molly. And Sirius was quite a control freak too, by the way. 4. Hindsight is always 20/20. 5. Molly didn't *want* to be the parent IMO: she just happened to *have been* the parent for several summers already. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Then she is being irrational and should be called on it." Del replies: Yes, she IS irrational: she loves a kid who is NOTHING to her. She lets her kids take risks for/with that kid. She takes risks herself. That is extremely irrational indeed. Do you think she should be called on the fact that it is irrational of her to love and care so much for Harry? phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Sirius is Harry's *Godfather*. Best friends with Harry's parents. Keeper of a lot of Harry's past. Probably there when the kid was born. If she is really that resentful of the bond between Harry and Sirius she is truly a reprehensible person." Del replies: Sirius is a reckless person. Sirius just spent 12 years in Azkaban. Sirius is moody. Sirius did not see Harry growing up. And most of all: Molly has known Sirius Black as a Muggle mass-murderer, a DE, and the traitor who sold James and Lily Potter to LV for the last 13 years. It has only been ONE MONTH that she's known differently! *And* it has also been only one month that she's even KNOWN about the existence of A bond between Harry and Sirius and she most probably doesn't know the DEPTH of that bond. Basically, you are asking Molly to have known everything that happened in PoA and GoF. But she did NOT follow those events! phoenixgod2000 wrote: "That makes it alright? The worst things I have ever seen a parent do to a child were done out of misguided love." Del replies: I find that remark horribly offensive and seriously misinformed. Looks to me like you don't know very much about parental abuse. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "I just think she should be called on it. Throw those remarks of her back into her face and force her to think about what she says instead of just turing as red as her hair and spouting off." Del replies: And WHAT exactly did she say to/about Harry that you find so terrible?? phoenixgod2000 wrote: "So she is right to bully her husband? She was right to forget about the Twins when she was happy that Ron had become a prefect? so she was right to try and crush the dreams of the twins when they don't fit into her version of what they should do? Molly has the right to raise her kids they way she wants but she goes out of her way to belittle ideas and dreams they have that are not hers." Del replies: 1. Arthur: Molly doesn't bully him. Using such a term to define their relationship cheapens its real meaning. Snape bullies Neville, yes, but Molly doesn't bully Arthur. 2. The Twins: as many have explained already, Molly most probably never considered the Twins as Prefect material because *they themselves* have always actively refused to be seen that way. So Molly is basically saying "that's everyone who COULD make it". 3. The Twins' ambition: like it or not, but it IS part of being a good parent to ensure your children's future. My mother *forced* my sister to graduate from high school. My sister resented that at the time, but a few years later, when her alternative plans failed (not through any lack of support from my mom, in case you wondered), she *profusely* thanked my mom for forcing her to get her high school diploma. She honestly acknowledged that she had been wrong and extremely short-sighted, and that my mom DID know better. Moreover, there is one crucial detail in the case of the Twins: MONEY. You need money to start up a business like they dream of, and Molly knows full well that money doesn't grow on trees. She knows full well that unless a *miracle* happens, the Twins will NOT be able to gather the funds to start their business. It's not a matter of talent, it's not a matter of skills, it's simply a matter of funds: they just do NOT have that, and without that their dream is just that, a *dream*. And if her kids won't be reasonable, then it is her DUTY to be reasonable for them and to ensure that they will have some kind of future without getting stuck in some low-paid unqualified job. phoenixgod2000 wrote: "Yes she does, but saying her mind does not give her the right to treat the twins they way she does. Or treat Arthur the way she does. Or try to infantalize Harry the way she tries to do. Being a good parent is about supporting your kids and giving them the tools to fufill their dreams, not yours. Something tells me that Molly isn't all that good at that part of the job." Del replies: Personally, judging on the result, I'd say Molly did a TERRIFIC job. 1. Bill: Prefect, Head Boy, excellent school results, capable, dream job (well paid, highly qualified, and fun), apparently emotionally healthy, good morals, independent enough to go and live in foreign countries (unless you think he's been running away from Molly, which is a possibility). 2. Charlie: Prefect, Quidditch Captain, good school results, capable, a job he loves, apparently emotionally healthy, good morals, independent enough to go and live in a foreign country (unless etc...) 3. Percy: Prefect, Head Boy, excellent school results, capable, good job. Granted, Percy has emotional and moral problems, but he's still young. 4. The Twins: highly capable when they choose to, good job in perspective, apparently emotionally healthy, good morals (overall), independent. 5. Ron: Prefect, not-so-bad school results for now, capable when he tries and believes in himself, working through his emotional problems, good morals. 6. Ginny: survived a possession by Diary!Tom, overcame her huge crush on Harry, good morals, apparently emotionally healthy, not known to be doing so badly in school, has spunk. I'd say Molly did wonderfully indeed! Sure she's not the perfect mom, she loses it sometimes, and she lets her heart overtake her mind at times. So what?? There is NO such thing as The Perfect Mom. Molly loves her kids, her husband and Harry, her *worst fear* is to lose one of them, and she's working hard at making them as happy and safe as possible, even if she's sometimes mistaken on the way to do that. I say : go Molly, go!! Del From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 10:40:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:40:46 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (WAS Re: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132711 > Viv: > > Yup, I just finished rereading OOTP today, and spotted this: > > "This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his > return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." > -Dumbledore, American version of OOTP, pg 840 (CH 37) > > This comment makes me wonder, though. Dumbledore clearly states that > Voldemort only heard the beginning lines of the prophecy, ("The one > with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those > that have thirce defied him, born as the seventh month dies...). > However, just from hearing those words, and assuredly, frothing over > it as Voldemort has apparently done for the past 16 years, the > prophecy doesn't strike as the place to find out how to defeat > Harry. Quite the opposite; if I were Voldemort, I would assume it > held the information about my own demise. --- > Futher, it seems to me that it would have been very easy for > Voldemort to sneak into the Ministry and remove the prophecy. After > all, no one was alerted that a handful of the most wanted Death > Eaters were in residence. In fact, no one was even alerted of > Voldemort's precense until two of the statues from the fountain > fetched Fudge and his aurors.-- Finwitch: Well, as I see it, Voldemort, hearing about the birth of the one with the power to defeat him - he may well assume that was DONE already. I *do* believe there is *something* that did lead him to believe that the prophecy held such information. The prophecy was made by Trelawney, and Voldemort knows that. He also knows of Dumbledore's acts to keep Harry safe (possibly due to the fact that Dumbledore was the one who heard the prophecy in full) - now, I'd say that the rat could *also* tell him how Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death trough out Harry's third year... in other words, the only two persons who can be presumed to know the full prophecy appear to believe that Harry's in mortal danger... Particularly after Dumbledore takes steps to protect the prophecy from him... Yes, Voldemort would believe it did hold such information... (partly because of those reasons and partly because he desperately wants that sort of info). As to why he had to lure Harry into the Ministry -- well, it may seem to you that it would be faster if Voldemort went and took the thing himself. However - as Voldemort wished to use it against Harry - well, he'd want Harry to be there so he can destroy Harry immediately... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 11:22:50 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:22:50 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: <5b4d8f5b8117.5b81175b4d8f@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132712 > britt: > > But that still doesn't explain why, even in such a short amount of time, > why they picked out what must have appeared as a blank parchment. Even > if they thought it odd that bare parchment would be considered > "dangerous," there's no explanation as to how they worked out how to use > it ("I solemnly swear...") Finwitch: The twins may have figured that either it IS a parchment in which case they can use it as such (the family is not rich, you know) and if it DOES hold some secret, ever better. I just doubt they actually *chose* anything - just crabbed what they could, that's all. As to how they figured it out - well, maybe the map assisted them.. They needed to identify themselves before getting any response, once they did, perhaps the map then gave instructions instead of insults. Finwitch From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 14 11:23:26 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:23:26 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132713 > Alla wrote in post # 132692:> > Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find close to unforgivable. > snip > > Now, having said all that, I DO like Molly. If for nothing else, for the wonderful children she brought up, so she must have been doing a lot of things right. :-) Potioncat: Yeah, I think she has. Now as to forgetting the twins speaking from painful experience, there are stupid things I've said as a mom that I would give my right arm to be able to go back and un-say. For each of my 3 kids I can think of something I said that to this day hurts me, whether they remember the incident or not. I mean those things said in the moment that didn't sound exactly as intended, but couldn't be explained away. So to me, this is a very believable Mom-moment. All of JKR's characters have wonderful, terrible flaws. Some have more than others. Del wrote in post #133710: > I'd say Molly did wonderfully indeed! Sure she's not the perfect >mom,she loses it sometimes, and she lets her heart overtake her mind >at times. So what?? There is NO such thing as The Perfect Mom. Molly > loves her kids, her husband and Harry, her *worst fear* is to lose one of them, and she's working hard at making them as happy and safe >as possible, even if she's sometimes mistaken on the way to do that. >I say : go Molly, go!! > Potioncat: Me too! I agree with everything Del said in that post. I think Molly and Arthur have a loving relationship that fits them. It may not be the sort that everyone would want, but it fits them. The twins seem amused at Molly rather than insulted by her. The feeling I get is that they are secure in her love. As for supporting their "dream": excuse me, they're failing school! How many teachers on the list would think highly of a parent who waved off their kids' poor grades with something like "Oh, they have potential and a dream, it's OK with me that they aren't doing their school work." And how many parents would let their teenagers sell candy that makes a person's nose bleed, or items that explode? Yeah, I know Molly didn't know about all the details, but she knew enough. It's all well and good for us to enjoy the twins' sense of humor and adventure, we aren't their mom. But the truth is, Molly posts are like Snape posts you either like her or you don't. Potioncat who wishes she could think of something clever to add to Filch's drawers. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 14 11:35:36 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:35:36 -0000 Subject: Molly, Snape and Sirius (was Re: OOTP observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > Amiable Dorsai: > > I think jealousy may play a part in her feelings about Sirius, but I'm > > also sure there's more than that. Sirius, after all, broke her > > youngest son's leg once. His actions could have led to Ron's being > > bitten by a werewolf or Kissed by a Dementor. > snip > > And I think she shared your feeling that there was something not quite > > right about Sirius. > > > > Potioncat: > And something I've never put together before. Molly berates Sirius, > and offers no "respect" for him. On the other hand, she seems to have > respect for Professor Snape, to the point of re-inforcing his title. > Snape has no respect for Sirius either. Do you suppose Molly and > Severus suspect something? > > I know Snape and Black have a history, but it's suddenly very > interesting to see that Molly and Snape treat Black in a similar > fashion. Marianne: I think there may be a combination of things going on here from Molly's perspective. First, she's had very little time to adjust what is probably a deep-seated, but incorrect view of Sirius. She's been told for over a decade that he's this evil mass murderer who's actions led to the deaths of Harry's parents. And, now she has to take DD's word, along with several children and a werewolf, that he's not. There is still no concrete proof that Sirius is indeed innocent, so perhaps Molly finds it a little difficult to let go of what she's believed is true for so long. Add to that Sirius' attempts to assert his position as godfather/guardian to Harry, and I think it's no wonder Molly gets cheesed off. Molly doesn't seem to have any issues with Snape, ex-DE, as part of the Order and as a teacher to her children, but he's been a known quantity over the years. He's been vouched for by DD, not only as an Order member, but, since he's been allowed to teach at Hogwarts, he must be okay. The Weasley kids may have given her an earful of complaints about Snape over the years, but, hey, they all got through Potions, some of the kids did very well academically, so her view of Snape may be simply that he's a tough, prickly teacher, but ultimately trustworthy. I think Molly is also very aware of titles and position in the Wizard World. Through Arthur's experience at the Ministry, Molly is fully aware of the need to curry favor with higher-ups at the Ministry. She's also aware that some areas of employment within the Ministry are better career paths than others. Snape carries the title of Potions Master at a prestigious wizarding school and has for years. Sirius carries the title of felon. I'm sure, that in many ways, he is not deemed worthy, in Molly's eyes, of respect. Marianne From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 11:45:26 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:45:26 -0000 Subject: Sirius observations /Flying Car In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132715 > > SSSusan: > > Aha! So Snape was wrong to "pick on" Sirius for that action. > > Thanks, Pippin. ;-) > > Pippin: > Not necessarily. It's a bit like the flying car incident in Book Two. > Sending an owl and waiting for instructions would have been wiser. > It's not like they *had* to take the train --what about the Knight > Bus? On the other hand, there obviously wasn't any time to lose > when they went to the MoM. Finwitch: Well, how do we know? It's well possible that something *else* could have gone wrong had Sirius not escorted Harry. Besides, as a dog he is well able to attack without revealing magic to Muggles... Just BITE L. Malfoy or who ever tries to give Harry trouble. And as for the flying car -- have we not witnessed with Harry how letters get intercepted enough to question whether he *really* should have sent Hedwig? Because you see, if someone blocked his access to the Platform, how is he to know that someone (like Dobby or Dursleys) does not intercept Hedwig's delivery? The thought of sending the letter did not occur to Harry, because (though Harry didn't realise it to tell that to McGonagall) Harry didn't believe the letter would ever reach Hogwarts, so it wouldn't have worked - it might just have got Hedwig wounded or even killed, and then what? They're still in platform, Harry grows more and more worried about Hedwig, probably agonising enough to cause some accidental magic to happen... or the Weasleys drive them to Hogwarts, the car gets seen, and Arthur is even WORSE off, having flied the car himself. Finwitch From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Jul 14 12:27:14 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:27:14 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Brazilian back cover of HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132716 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E Here is a link I got from another yahoo group. This is from the website for a bookstore in Brazil, and the picture of the front & back of HBP includes the text of the back cover (in English)! http://i.s8.com.br/images/books/cover/img4/280644_4.jpg Here's the page it came from: http://i.s8.com.br/books_productdetails.asp?Query= ProductPage&ProdTypeId=1&ProdId=280644&ST=SF14023 --Arcum From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 12:28:37 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:28:37 -0000 Subject: Super News Flash! Bloomsbury releases text of Back cover! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132717 Go to http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/ click on News, then click on Back Cover Copy Released There is also a link on mugglenet. Enjoy! From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 14 12:34:25 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:34:25 -0000 Subject: Pulling the Wool Over our Eyes - Snape, DD, Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132718 I've been musing since reading the recent Molly/Sirius thread, particularly after reading Potioncat's observation that Molly and Snape both treat Sirius with a lack of respect. That made me think about how OoP revealed flaws in many characters, and also that the characters who came off the worse for wear are, mostly, the good guys. We've spent hours debating Molly's treatment of Sirius and whether or not she's a good mother. We've argued over how much blame rests on DD's shoulders for Harry's abysmal situation at the Dursleys. We've argued over whether the bullying of Snape by James and Sirius can be forgiven. We've speculated if Lupin would ever grow a spine. We've excused, or been horrified, by Sirius' behavior in OoP. We've wondered if Hagrid has finally lost his mind in bringing Grawp to our attention. We can't decide whether Hermione really is the font of all wisdom or if she really needs a come-uppance. We've had enough of, or we understand completely, CAPS LOCK!Harry. And, of course, we've had roaring threads on Snape, especially on who's to blame for the lack of success of the Occlumency lessons. It seems to me that the tenor of the Snape discussions rarely cast doubt on whether he's truly in DD's camp. Snape is obviously trusted by DD, and thus, by the Order. (Excluding Sirius, but he and Snape have such a toxic history that anything Sirius says might be considered suspect.) We don't know what Snape's story is, but it's been accepted by DD. Since early in the series, we've also had Hermione step up and defend Snape when Harry and/or Ron have expressed their reservations about him. Well, what if this has all been one gigantic set-up by Herself? I've always felt that part of what OoP was meant to do was show the flaws in the good characters, while raising sympathy for Snape. Add to this that the two characters who are held to be the brains of the adult and kid outfits, DD and Hermione, are steadfast in their trust in Snape. What if JKR is setting them, and us, up for a fall and Snape is really double-crossing DD? Would that be a big bang or a big let-down? Would people find it further evidence of Snape's mystery and complexity as a character? Or would it be a disappointment? IIRC, JKR did say something in an interview about a redemptive quality to Snape, so perhaps people think his worst deeds are behind him. However, maybe his worst deeds are in HBP, and his redemption will come in Book 7. Marianne, who will stop rambling now From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 12:35:34 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:35:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Penseive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132719 vmonte: What would happen if a person were to take out memories from the penseive that were not their own and then add them to their own mind? Is it possible that Dumbledore's penseive originally belonged to Godric (just like the sword and Fawkes) and that Dumbledore is now carrying GG's memories inside his head? I'm reminded of the time that Dumbledore mentioned that Harry must know what it feels like too have too many memories inside his head. Now, what if the penseive Snape was using was not Dumbledore's but Salazar's? I also have the feeling that Ron is going to start having someone else's memories and that Harry or DD might offer the penseive as a way of releasing those memories. Do you think that Ron is the kind of kid that might start adding other memories into his head? That would enable him to become a pretty good strategist don't you think? Vivian From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:11:22 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:11:22 -0000 Subject: The Reason Snape is such a miserable git..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132720 , "demetra1225" wrote: > Well, there are only a couple days left til Book 6 so I figure I > might as well post my half-baked theories. > > > 1. Severus Snape is married > > "Are you married, or are you happy?" ? Curly, The Three Stooges > > I don't think it would be controversial to say that Severus Snape is > a deeply unhappy person. His unhappiness goes beyond the usual `bad > hair day' level. Really, what else could cause that much misery, > but marriage to a deranged harpy? > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I also have wondered if he is married or has been married, as I remember JKR made a comment about Professors Being Married, or something like that. Though, your theory about a arrogant man being married to a Crazy Wife is very Jane Eyre'ish. It has reminded me very much of that story. OH yea, and if you haven't read Jane Erye, please don't read this post, since I am comparing, there are JE spoilers (laughs) If one will remember the story, it is about a governess that goes to a wealty man's home to care for his ward, in effect, falls in love with that arrogant git, and ends up finding out he is already married. The movie versions of this story leave out a lot. But, it is one of my favorite stories and I am very much reminded of something in the book. It has a very similar sound to it, or, at least the movie version of Snape anyway. Quote: I am sure most people would find him an ugly man, yet, there was so much unconscious pride in his part; so much ease in his demeanour; such a look of complete indifference to his own external apperance; so haughty a reliance on the power of other qualities, intrinsic or adventitious, that, in looking at him, one inevitably shared the indifference, and, even in a blind, inperfect sence, put faith in that confidence. I am reminded that in the Jane Eyre book, Mr. Rochester was very arrogant, quick tempered and ugly, he had a ward, a little girl, but he confessed he did not like children, though he was really a caring man deep down, and in the end, the truth of it was, he had just been used badly by his family and was in fact lonely because he had been forced by his family to marry a crazy woman because of money, etc. In some parts of Jane Eyre I fond Mr. Rochester very cruel with words and attitude and...well, should I say Snapish. Anyways, I wonder if JKR is a Jane Eyre fan (laughs) Could she possibly have a JE ending for Snape? Well, maybe thats not wholly what I mean, in the end Mr. Rochester is hurt trying to save his crazy wife, the movies do not due his injuries justice, in the book I am reminded that he lost the use of one of his arms and was very badly injured, but in the end he is set free of the burdon of his crazy wife, and is able to live again and marries Jane. Now, I'm not going for the Snape gets a new girl FanFic ending, I highly doubt JKR will do that... I am wondering though, if, somehow the ending will be similar in that, Perhaps Snape will be hurt badly, but not killed, and he will be able to free himself not only from Voldemort, but also from his harmfull feelings and grudges about James/Sirius/Lupin....and in affect, perhaps he can start to change his attitude towards Harry......I shall hope JKR doesn't kill him off, and does something like that, because at some point, killing off all the characters....to me...is boaring, I would even say it is an easy way out. If you kill them off, you don't have to deal with them actually fitting back in or working out in the story. KarentheUnicorn From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:16:44 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:16:44 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- DEADLINE TONIGHT Midnight EDT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132721 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com* and to the newsgroup. You must email your entry to TigerPatronus to be entered in the contest. You will receive an email confirmation of your entry. Deadline: TONIGHT Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 11:59 pm (midnight) EDT. Note the time change. Revised entries: If you would like to make changes to your answers, resend the entire entry (all 10 compulsory questions and all 5 open predictions) with your new answers both to the list and to Tiger. I will delete your old entry when I receive your new one. The deadline still applies to revisions. Get them in by midnight, tonight! Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. Predictions that only describe the covers are worth no points. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or another superlative title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 14 13:40:53 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:40:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest -- revised entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D66B65.7020502@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132722 tigerpatronus wrote: > Revised entries: If you would like to make changes to your answers, > resend the entire entry (all 10 compulsory questions and all 5 open > predictions) with your new answers both to the list and to Tiger. I > will delete your old entry when I receive your new one. The deadline > still applies to revisions. Get them in by midnight, tonight! > I accidently left off the second part of my predictions when I posted some long time ago. I have tried to resist the urge to post the complete version, but.......;-) - > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 1. Lupin. Or maybe MacGonnagle. I hope it is not either to be honest, but I do feel someone we treasure is going to be offed. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) 2. Godric Gryffindor > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 3. Not revealed until book 7. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 4. A new character, Felix Felicis, aka the lion guy (gotta be catlike with a name like that) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 5. A first tentative date with Ginny late in the book, but there won't be much shipping (I hope) > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 6. Amos Diggory. He won't be at all sympathetic to Harry. I am sure it won't be Amelia Bones. That would be too helpful. Things have to get worse in book six, not better. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 7. A pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 8. Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 9. Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > 10. 9 passes DADA - O; CoMC - EE; Potions - EE; Charms - EE; Transfiguration - EE; Herbology - A History of Magic - A (due to legilimancy on Parvati); Astronomy - A (due to everybody getting a credit for this exam, owing to the interruption of Umbridge's attempt on Hagrid); Divination - A (how can the practical exam be marked accurately?) > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. We find out why Voldemort and Harry did not die at Godric's Hollow. 2. Harry becomes proficient in Legilimancy, and starts to use it effectively, much to Snape's chagrin. 3. Tonks goes spying undercover using her Metamorph powers, and is rumbled by being clumsy. 4. The Goblins will have another rebellion, forcing an economic crisis in WW. They won't be for or anti Voldemort/Dumbledore, but all out for themselves. 5. Peter Pettigrew gets caught shortly after he kills Lupin (wail), and thus allows for Sirius's name to be cleared. 6. Neville brews an advanced potion using Mimbulus mimbletonia. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.14/48 - Release Date: 13/07/2005 From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 14 13:48:43 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:48:43 -0000 Subject: Pulling the Wool Over our Eyes - Snape, DD, Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132723 Marianne wrote: snip Add to this that the two characters who are held to be the brains of the adult and kid outfits, DD and Hermione, are steadfast in their trust in Snape. What if JKR is setting them, and us, up for a fall and > Snape is really double-crossing DD? Potioncat: I've often wondered if Hermione knows something about Snape that she isn't telling. Did she learn something in the Vampire Essay or did she learn something while at 12GP or even from "Hogwarts, A History"? She has been steadfast in her support in spite of his treatment of her. Marianne: > Would that be a big bang or a big let-down? Would people find it > further evidence of Snape's mystery and complexity as a character? > Or would it be a disappointment? Potioncat: For myself, who gets lost in good books and wanders around in them, I would feel as betrayed as DD would. And once I stepped out of the book, I'd have a "Wow, she pulled one over on me!" reaction. I'm sure others would have the "Yes! I knew it!" reaction. The same will be true of Percy. I'll feel very sad if there is no reunion of the Weasleys. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:50:04 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:50:04 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- If you want to change your predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132724 Revised entries: If you would like to make changes to your predictions, resend your entire HBP prediction contest entry (all 10 compulsory questions and all 5 open predictions) with your new answers *both* to the list and to Tiger. I will delete your old entry when I receive your new one. The deadline still applies to revisions. Get them in by midnight, tonight! TK -- TigerPatronus From tonyaminton at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:52:30 2005 From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:52:30 -0500 Subject: HBP contest entry -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132725 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I believe that Dumbledore will be the character who die's. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I believe that the Half Blood Prince is Dumbledore and he will start teaching Harry other forms of magic which he will use to defeat the dark lord. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I believe that her big secret is that she is a metamorphmagous and that magic has been passed to Harry though the eyes. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I think the next DADA teacher will be Snape. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think Harry will become romantic with Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? The next Minister of Magic will be a women. Madam Bones perhaps. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The Bowl is a Pensive that holds some more of Dumbeldore's memories that he is showing Harry about the night his parents died. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes Harry will be in Advanced Potions. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No Neville will not take Advanced Potions, maybe advanced Herbology, do they have that?? :) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I think that Harry will get 9 OWLs. Thanks, Tonya Minton From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 13:57:28 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:57:28 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > Geoff Bannister > > You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title > of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the same..... > > Amiable Dorsai: > > Oh dear... > > So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? I was going to keep out of this one, as it's definately OT (will the elves give us some leyway as we are 'demob happy'?) but that last sentance has got me howling and tears pouring down my face. All I'll say to the poor Americans and others reading this, is that all this comment has done is ahem, narrow down the target area of the contents of his drawers!! Cricket anyone? Karen From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 14 14:08:38 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:08:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132727 > vmonte: > What would happen if a person were to take out memories from the > penseive that were not their own and then add them to their own mind? > Is it possible that Dumbledore's penseive originally belonged to > Godric (just like the sword and Fawkes) and that Dumbledore is now > carrying GG's memories inside his head? Potioncat: Well, as I understand it, thoughts are put into the Pensieve, reviewed, and then returned to the head. DD says he was called away in the midst of reviewing his thoughts. Snape always fills the Pensieve at the last minute and returns the thoughts to his head before Harry is out of the door. Both times that Harry went into the Pensieve, the owner had been suddenly called away. So I don't think thoughts are stored in the Pensieve. Of course, if someone was called away and never returned, I guess someone else could take them on. But along that line..."Snape's Worst Memory" still seems to me to be James' memory. I just can't figure out what it would be doing in Snape's head or why Snape would keep James' memory alive. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 14:47:39 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:47:39 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- back cover text - off-limits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132728 No spoilers in this post. Bloomsbury has released the back cover text for HBP. Anything that is contained in the very spoilery back cover text is now off-limits for the HBP contest. Link to back cover text: http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp? sec=4&sec2=1&unart=yes&artTitle=Back%20Cover%20Copy%20Released TK -- TigerPatronus From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 15:07:48 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:07:48 -0000 Subject: Fred & George - Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > britt: > > > > But that still doesn't explain why, even in such a short amount of > time, > > why they picked out what must have appeared as a blank parchment. > Even > > if they thought it odd that bare parchment would be considered > > "dangerous," there's no explanation as to how they worked out how > to use > > it ("I solemnly swear...") Meltowne: There probably weren't that many things in the cabinet they took it from - and given where it was, it obviously wasn't just a blank parchment, or Filch wouldn't have locked it away with other items he confiscated. It may have simply been one of the easiest items to sneak out. > Finwitch: > > The twins may have figured that either it IS a parchment in which > case they can use it as such (the family is not rich, you know) and > if it DOES hold some secret, ever better. I just doubt they actually > *chose* anything - just crabbed what they could, that's all. > As to how they figured it out - well, maybe the map assisted them.. > They needed to identify themselves before getting any response, once > they did, perhaps the map then gave instructions instead of insults. How they figured out how to use it is probably easy. It is obviously imbued with a certain level of "intelligence." When Snape tried to get it to reveal itself, it insulted him in a pretty personal way. It probably revealed itself to them because it know they would be up to trouble. Who's to say the phrase they use to reveal it and cloak it is the only one that works? Since they told Harry how to use it, he didn't need to experiment, like they would have. From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 15:12:27 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:12:27 EDT Subject: TBAY: Anthem of the SWAK DEAD Message-ID: <88.2aaf7e74.3007dadb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132730 All quotes American editions. ******************** "I know you haven't." said Professor McGonagall, half exasperated, half admiring. "But you're different. Everyone knows you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of." "You flatter me." said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have." "Only because you're too ----- well, noble to use them." PS/SS, p.11 " Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it ---- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get as much as a nosebleed." Crouch!Moody, GOF Chapter 14, p.217 ******************** The clouds were gathering ominously in Theory Bay as everyone battened down for the upcoming hurricane. George was busy nailing boards over the windows as everyone else ran in and out of his pub which had become a sort of flea market, stocking up on the essentials: rope, nails, pop tarts, and drink mixes, occasionally throwing gold and silver into a basket marked Please Be Honest. Kaylee and Juli walked down the beach towards their new ship. They'd just signed on with the SWAK DEAD, and there was still a lot of work to be done. This was certainly foolhardy with a hurricane days away, but Captain Amber was confident that the theory would be ironed out in time to weather the storm. The SWAK DEAD was formerly Lockhart's pleasure yacht, newly decorated in black draperies and miniature dementors. (This might have been ominous if it weren't for the lilac paint still everywhere and the basket of puffskeins, wiggling and purring happily in the lounge.) When the crew was settled in black draped squashy armchairs, Captain Amber began. "The theory. All right. I'd like to start with the battle at the ministry in OOP. Specifically, why five out of Harry's seven accomplices are not dead. Not injured. Not tortured. Dead. We have a curse that supposedly kills in seconds. I can understand why Harry and Neville weren't killed, when the prophecy was at stake (we've seen what an AK can do...the desk at the ministry, Godric's Hollow). It might be just the DE's playing with them ( I'm quite sure what took Hermione down was the Entrail-Expelling Curse) but they don't seem to use it even in the battle with the Order. Can they even cast it? Even Bellatrix? Sirius is alive when he falls through the veil. Alive enough to be afraid and shocked. "There are only three people in canon so far whom we've seen use an AK: Crouch!Moody, who kills (gasp!) a spider, Voldemort, who is number two to Dumbledore as magical power goes, and Wormtail or Peter Pettigrew. (though I know Pippin has her own ideas.) And the Aurors, who are among the most powerful and highly trained wizards in Britain, are mentioned as being authorized to use it. Which goes back to what Crouch!Moody says...it needs powerful magic behind it. Which means...we've been seriously underestimating one Peter Pettigrew, I think." "Pettigrew mastered the Animagus transformation at sixteen with the help of three other sixteen year olds. He managed to brew Voldemort's rebirthing potion (who else would cut off their right hand without painkillers? Would you?) He talks back to Voldemort. He bites the finger of a boy the size of a Volkswagen. He manages to spy on the order and master Legimens Dumbledore for at least a year. (which means he must be an Occlumens at least.) Pettigrew might be morally bankrupt and lacking in self-determination, but he has courage and magical power that we have not seen the other Death Eaters demonstrate. And what leads us to dismiss him? The "yes man" attitude. Mmmhmm. What an act." "So may I present the cult of Peter the bad a**. The SWAK DEAD (So Wormtail AK's, Demonstrating Energy And Dangerousness) With thanks to Redhen's piece on Pettigrew: _http://www.redhen-publications.com/Pettigrew.html_ (http://www.redhen-publications.com/Pettigrew.html) Amber (Note from the First Mate: Here's to hoping this and all the other ships survive Hurricane Jo! ~Kaylee, off to stash supplies aboard the DRIBBLE SHADOWS as well...*salutes Cap'n SSSusan*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 12:54:34 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:54:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > What would happen if a person were to take out memories from the > penseive that were not their own and then add them to their own mind?<< >>snip<< Thats a really interesting idea! if you put someone elses memories in your head, you would probably get really confused and think they were actually your own memories etc. maybe the memories have some way of distinguishing between people, so they would recognise the brain that they should be in. >Vmonte: Is it possible that Dumbledore's penseive originally belonged to > Godric (just like the sword and Fawkes) and that Dumbledore is now > carrying GG's memories inside his head?< Vmonte: I also have the feeling that Ron is going to start having someone > else's memories and that Harry or DD might offer the penseive as a way > of releasing those memories. Do you think that Ron is the kind of kid > that might start adding other memories into his head? That would > enable him to become a pretty good strategist don't you think? I definetly think that brain will have had some lasting effect on Ron, and it will be mentioned in the next book. (maybe just in passing though) that idea leads me to wonder whose brain was that anyway? if it belonged to a wizard that died or something, it could have some intersing memories or thoughts, but if that brain had always been in that tank, i doubt its memories would be very interesting. I can't imagine that Ron would put other peoples memories from a penseive in his head, he would probably find that a bit weird Philippajrice From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:49:03 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:49:03 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (WAS Re: Why not let Harry destroy the Prophecy from the beginning?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132732 wrote: > "This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his > return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." > -Dumbledore, American version of OOTP, pg 840 (CH 37) > > This comment makes me wonder, though. Dumbledore clearly states that > Voldemort only heard the beginning lines of the prophecy, ("The one > with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those > that have thirce defied him, born as the seventh month dies...). > However, just from hearing those words, and assuredly, frothing over > it as Voldemort has apparently done for the past 16 years, the > prophecy doesn't strike as the place to find out how to defeat > Harry. Quite the opposite; if I were Voldemort, I would assume it > held the information about my own demise. So then wouldn't it have > been more accurate to say he wanted to find out how Harry might > defeat him, so he could safeguard against the possibility? Or did > Voldemort have other information that would lead him to believe > information about Harry's defeat could be found inside that specific > prophecy? I'm guessing (and hoping) that the prophecy contains clues that might enable LV to figure out how to kill Harry, something in the wording of it, something to do with "old magic" and their connection to one another, and Dumbledore knows what it is and doesn't want LV to be able to figure it out. If it isn't something like that... then this is one of those things that we're just supposed to swallow even if we can't make sense of it, like why it had to be the tri-wizard cup that was made into a portkey. (I've seen interesting explanations for this but nothing explicit in the book gives a reason.) - davenclaw From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 15:32:19 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Triwizard Cup (was: Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714153219.92621.qmail@web32601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132733 --- davenclaw wrote: > If it isn't something like that... then this is one > of those things > that we're just supposed to swallow even if we can't > make sense of > it, like why it had to be the tri-wizard cup that > was made into a > portkey. (I've seen interesting explanations for > this but nothing > explicit in the book gives a reason.) At my last reread of the GoF, I thought that the explanation might be that it is impossible for anybody except DD to set portkeys on the grounds of Hogwarts. However, the cup was already set as a 'local' portkey, because once the first champion touched it, I don't think he (or she) had to transport it back to the maze, I think the cup itself was supposed to take him (or her) out instantly. Perhaps this lifted the interdiction on setting portkeys specifically for the triwizard cup, which is why Fake Moody could only use this object and none else to take Harry to the graveyard. I know that the Fake Moody says somewhere that he transformed the cup into a portkey, but perhaps this is only because 'local' portkeys are not customarily called portkeys, but something else, for instance 'roomkeys'. What do you think of this explanation? Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 15:15:08 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione the animagus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132734 I think Hermione will turn out to be an animagus. She seems pretty skillful at Transformations and has a very good relationship with McGonagall. It seems like those things would facilitate her becoming an animagus. What I would like to know is if they have squirrels in England. She is sort of squirrel-like with her bushy hair and big teeth. Of course she could still be a squirrel animagus if there are no squirrels in England, but she would lose the advantage of being inconspicuous, which strikes me as one of the big advantages of being an animagus. And speaking of animagi, I think it is possible that the old lion guy is Crookshanks in his true human form. I never believed that he was really a cat. As a cat he doesn't limp, but he is described as "bandy- legged", and he has two extra legs to walk on as a cat. I'm pretty sure he has yellow eyes, too. Apologies if this has all been discussed before. snipsnapsnurr From jasmine0365 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:51:15 2005 From: jasmine0365 at yahoo.com (Jeanelle Topping) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP: Back Cover of Deluxe Version - Did any one else see this? In-Reply-To: <42D66B65.7020502@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050714135115.99860.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132735 SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER I was just looking very closely at the blow up of the back cover of the Deluxe book. Did anyone else notice the face or drawing (?) on the path leading to the cottage? Jeanelle From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 14:01:48 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:01:48 -0000 Subject: Snape's task at end of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132736 Did OotP ever resolve the task that Snape was sent off to perform at the end of GoF, and I somehow missed it? The only hint I remember in OotP of Snape's job is when he acknowledges to Harry that his job is to keep tabs on the death eaters and LV. So was his task to run off and feign devotion to LV? Is he pretending to be a death eater? Seems odd since LV indicates that he fears Snape (I assume) is "lost forever" and "will be killed." I doubt he'd believe Snape... so what did he run off to do in GoF? Start brewing some potion for Lupin to be an effective member of the order the whole month long? - davenclaw From momy424 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 15:19:29 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:19:29 -0400 Subject: Updated predictions Message-ID: <8C7569E9072C0A7-C50-1B4BD@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132737 Ok all, I want to make some small changes to my earlier predictions 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Professor McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't believe we will see a big secret at all from Lily, but there will be one from her sister 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Blaise Zabini 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensive 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 11 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Luna and Harry will return to the room with the veil and be able to "speak" to the voices 2. The bubblegum wrappers will have a major significance. Perhaps messages scrawled on them that are not realized. 3. Ron and Hermione will share their first kiss 4. The order will lose at least 4 top members in a fight with DE 5. All the DE's imprisoned at the end of OoTP will be freed as Dementors no longer are under MoM control 6. Harry will leave Privet Dr. early to attend Bill and Fluer's wedding 7. The Old Lion guy is Dumbledore's brother Momy424 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 15:27:38 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:27:38 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Anthem of the SWAK DEAD In-Reply-To: <88.2aaf7e74.3007dadb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132738 fuzzlebub85 at a... wrote: > Which goes back to what Crouch!Moody says...it needs powerful > magic behind it. Which means...we've been seriously > underestimating one Peter Pettigrew, I think." > > "Pettigrew mastered the Animagus transformation at sixteen... > He managed to brew Voldemort's rebirthing potion... > He talks back to Voldemort. > He bites the finger of a boy the size of a Volkswagen. > He manages to spy on the order and master Legimens... > Pettigrew might be morally bankrupt and lacking in self- > determination, but he has courage and magical power that we have > not seen the other Death Eaters demonstrate. Yes, but Voldemort himself calls him something like a "miserable wizard" or something else derisive during his speech to the DEs in GoF. I think this is a bit of a goof - either AK isn't that hard to do, or Peter shouldn't be able to do it, or maybe he can only do it using LV's wand because LV has somehow given him a little extra boost to do things like that. - davenclaw From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 14 15:49:37 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:49:37 -0700 Subject: HBP predicition contest. Yet another OFF LIMIT Spoiler Message-ID: <410-22005741415493793@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132739 Greetings, Just a notice that all information that can be taken from the Back Cover of UK CHILDREN'S edition of the book, as it contains a full summary on the back. Thanks Chancie~Minion in Charge of Spoilers http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp?sec=4&sec2=1&unart=yes&artTitle=Back%20Cover%20Copy%20Released [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:52:38 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:52:38 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132740 > Geoff Bannister > > You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title > of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the same..... > > Amiable Dorsai: > > Oh dear... So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? Dungrollin: Guilty secrets, of course. The wand he has never got to work, and a couple of antique crystal ba... Sorry. I should stress that he does *not* take them out and play with them furtively when he thinks nobody's watching. From sionwitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 14:13:40 2005 From: sionwitch at yahoo.com (Virginia Villamediana) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP contest -- email entry to Tiger, too Message-ID: <20050714141340.3462.qmail@web33805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132741 I did this before but not very well so I will try it again, hope is not too late. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffindor, Harry is his heir, and he will learn from Griffindor something to defeat Voldemort. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She discover how to kill Voldemort before she dies and she will tell Harry how, through a pensieve or in some other way. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The new Character Felix, he is a friend of Dumbledore and he will be a great DADA teacher. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan ,Ginny or Luna, (I cant lose here, I got almost every posibility cover ;-) , so please give al least 1/3 of a point for trying) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Cedric's father or Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Harry's parents' pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? YES, He will need it to defeat Voldemort and to become an Auror. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? YES, what is a Harry Potter book without Snape making Neville miserable, maybe in this one Neville will stand up and defend himself. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 is the magic number, since Im still tryng to understand the OWLs sistem. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Sirius is not really dead or at least he will be able to comunicate with Harry in some way.(Im praying for that) 2. Draco has love feelings for Hermione. 3. Hermione will tell Ron she love him. 4. Harry will save Draco's life. 5. Harry will suspect that Lupin is a Spy but he will be wrong. Virginia. From mpachuta at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 14:17:24 2005 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:17:24 +0000 Subject: Sirius and the "major character" conundrum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132742 While filling out my predictions for whats to happen in HBP, I was surprised when my mind gave pause at the very first question who will be the major character to die in Half-Blood Prince? The reason my mind paused what is the definition of a major character? We can all agree that Harry is a major character. Same with Ron and Hermione. Dumbledore is now a major character. He wasnt in the first book; he was mostly an unseen headmaster. I think Neville is a major character now, but I didnt before Order of the Phoenix. Are the Dursleys major characters? I think so; theyve been fairly important in every book, and in Harrys life. Is Lupin a major character? Series wide. I dont think so; hes only been in two books, and he was a very important character in only one book. So when Sirius dies in OotP, I felt bad for Harry, but as part of the series as a whole, I didnt think we lost a major character. I know Sirius had a whole book named after him and about him, but he wasnt even in that book until the very end. He made a few appearances in GoF, and was featured a lot more in OotP. But in my mind, he wasnt a major character. He was a man who gave Harry motivation in PoA. He was a man who gave Harry advice in GoF. And he was a man Harry cared about in OotP. I think Sirius was a very good literary device he was integral in the outing of Peter Pettigrew (who has featured in all but one book as either Scabbers or Pettigrew). He gave Harry a person to genuinely miss when he was gone. In Harrys mind, prior to the end of Order of the Phoenix, the battle between good and evil was a battle between Harry and Voldemort. It may boil down to that in the end, but its bigger than just Harry. Now he knows that Voldemort rips apart families and takes away people who matter to everyone. Its personal now. I think it actually click with Harry earlier on in OotP, when Moody was showing Harry the photo of the original Order, and Harry realized what Voldemort did, and how many families he tore apart. And then later it actually hit home for Harry. He got an up-close, personal example of a family being torn apart not only was Sirius, his father/friend killed and taken away from him, but Sirius was killed by one of his own relatives! mike From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 16:07:24 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:07:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOTP observations: Molly (and a bit on Percy, DD, etc.) Message-ID: <1ab.3b77af22.3007e7bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132743 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here, joining in this discussion in between having a pina colada or two at the Royal George: > Del replies: > Molly is the epitome of the protective mother. Asking her NOT to care > for any parent-less kid around her is illogical IMO. Phoenixgod said: I get that, but there is a difference between caring for Harry and the irrational degree of guardianship she seemed to think she was entitled to. Now me, Kaylee: Yes, I agree with Phoenixgod. There is a difference. (I know this from experience...my father's girlfriend was a Molly...grr, I hated that.) Although I understand Del's point too, and asking her not to care for any parentless child *is* illogical...though I believe her methods are a little off. Look at the way she treats her own children!! > And personally, if I was Harry or Hermione's mother, I'd be VERY GLAD > that there is *someone* mothering my kid. I would NOT be happy if I > let my teenage kid go to some place under some adult's supervision, > and I learned that s/he had been allowed to, say, watch a porn movie, > and when I ask why this is so to that supposedly responsible adult, I > get told "well, s/he's not *my* kid, is s/he?" That would peeve me off > *greatly* Kaylee: Yes, Del, I see what you mean. That's definitely true in my book too. (I'm still single and without children, but hypothetically, if I had kids...) Anyway, it would be a very irresponsible adult who would let something like that (the porn, fires, etc.) occur... > Del replies: > Well, I have been told several times that obedience to DD *is* the > standard of goodness in the Potterverse. Phoenixgod: I'm cheesed off at Dumbledore after OOTP so I am not one of those people. Kaylee now: I believe I differ here with you both, actually. Obedience to DD isn't *necessarily* the standard of goodness...after all, Sirius didn't exactly obey DD, did he? But he was "good". He did his best to protect Harry. (I'm fairly sure I'm starting to go OT...crud...) However, I'm more likely to say if *obedience to DD* isn't the standard, at least *alliance with DD* is. Those who side with Fudge and not DD seem to be in the wrong. Think Percy. Kaylee continues, answering Phoenixgod: As for being cheesed off at DD...I'm not. I'm a *tiny* bit annoyed that he ignored Harry all year, naturally, but I understood his reasoning...as he himself called it, "an old man's mistake". DD *is* old. He is not perfect, he is human, and Harry is just starting to learn this now, it seems. (As a side note, I'm not cheesed off at CAPSLOCK!Harry either, but that's another thread.) > > Del said: As for the jealousy, I find it totally understandable. Molly has been > inviting Harry into her family for several years now. She has showered > him with affection and attention. The Burrow is the only place apart > from Hogwarts where Harry has ever been happy. So it is totally > understandable to me that Molly would feel a bit possessive of Harry, > and consequently a bit jealous that Harry loves Sirius so obviously > more than her. Kaylee here: Hmm. I took it a little differently. Sure, she's jealous that Harry cares for Sirius more than her, but I think it's more than that. She's only known for a couple years now (if even that long...correct me, did she find out in/after POA or GoF? Please, I need canon, my books are MIA except for Order of the Phoenix, which of course I am rereading as fast as possible) I think she still can't let go of the belief that Sirius is guilty. She feels protective of Harry since he's being around a man who escaped *Azkaban Prison* of all places. She doesn't trust Sirius. I agree that she's jealous, but I think that she also feels Sirius is untrustworthy, and that's her *reasoning*. Phoenixgod said: Then she is being irrational and should be called on it. Sirius is Harry's *Godfather*. Best friends with Harry's parents. Keeper of a lot of Harry's past. Probably there when the kid was born. If she is really that resentful of the bond between Harry and Sirius she is truly a reprehensible person. All true...except we differ on the last line, Phoenixgod. I don't find Molly "reprehensible" for not trusting Sirius. (Perhaps I might be slightly influenced by the fact that my uncle, my mother's brother-in-law, wasn't trusted by my mother's family for similar reasons. But I digress.) I find Molly *insecure* in her position in Harry's life. Before the end of PoA, ever since she first met Harry she's been his parental figure. With Sirius being so involved in Harry's life over the course of GoF, she began to feel left out. In OotP, she was even stuck in the same house as her "rival", even a house that *belonged* to him, and couldn't stand the pressure. > Del replies: > That would be totally unfair IMO!! Molly did SO MUCH for Harry, and > any hurt she caused him was borne out of love and concern for him! Phoenixgod says: That makes it alright? The worst things I have ever seen a parent do to a child were done out of misguided love. Kaylee here: *blinks* Actually, though it's hard to explain, I believe you're BOTH right...am I making sense? I can't clarify right now, have to think it over... > Del: (Unlike some of the hurt Sirius caused Harry, by the way...) Molly > freely showered Harry with good things and good feelings, so why on > Earth should she be punished??? I don't think I said punished. I just think she should be called on it. Throw those remarks of her back into her face and force her to think about what she says instead of just turing as red as her hair and spouting off. Kaylee here: Hmm. Well, as long as you DIDN'T say "punished," Phoenixgod...Yes, I believe Molly ought to think before she speaks. But *can* she? Is this a "normal" state of mind for Molly Weasley? Something to think about...what someone "should" do vs. what they *can.* IOW, I believe Molly's highly unlikely to think before she speaks, because that's just not "her" way, IMHO. Unless you can provide suitable canon to prove me wrong...and I'd be delighted if you could, Phoenixgod (or anyone else), because I *would* like Molly to change... Phoenixgod: So she is right to bully her husband? She was right to forget about the Twins when she was happy that Ron had become a prefect? so she was right to try and crush the dreams of the twins when they don't fit into her version of what they should do? Molly has the right to raise her kids they way she wants but she goes out of her way to belittle ideas and dreams they have that are not hers. Kaylee now: Well, Phoenixgod, I have to say you've hit the nail on the head. It's one of the things I *don't* understand about Molly...why she belittles her children about not being the way she wants to be...except that...*dryly*...my own mother is the same way. I just figured all mothers were like that. (I still don't understand it, I just have a similar mother!) IMO, Molly's not being fair. But what can the Weasley kids do? Or Arthur, for that matter? > > Del: A mother does NOT stop being a mother when her kids hit puberty or > something. Molly is the mother, and she will always be the mother, and > as long as her kids depend on her for their living, then she is > entitled to say her mind. True enough. My mother would agree completely. However, with the "as long as her kids depend on her for their living", then I have a little bit of a problem with that, Del. Mind you, I don't have GoF right here, but I believe the quote goes something like this... *Molly asks Bill to let her trim his hair and scolds him about the dragon fang earring* "Really, Bill, what do they say at the bank?" "Mum, no one gives a damn how I dress as long as I bring home plenty of treasure..." And then doesn't Ginny stick up for Bill, pointing out that his hair's not longer than Dumbledore's and she likes it? So since Bill is grown up, should Molly have the right to say these things? Apparently not. But she does. Phoenixgod again: Yes she does, but saying her mind does not give her the right to treat the twins they way she does. Or treat Arthur the way she does. Or try to infantalize Harry the way she tries to do. Being a good parent is about supporting your kids and giving them the tools to fufill their dreams, not yours. Something tells me that Molly isn't all that good at that part of the job. Kaylee here: Yes, Phoenixgod, exactly what I was thinking. But I wouldn't say Molly's not a "good" mother. She may not be the "best", just like mine isn't the "best", but, after all, she DID raise seven children, and, per JKR, homeschool them all before Hogwarts. She must be good for *something*. . Just my two Knuts. phoenixgod2000 All JMHO as usual, Kaylee Tonks-Lupin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:10:02 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:10:02 -0000 Subject: TBAY assortment (not as nice as Lindt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132744 With huge apologies for the delay in responding, but it's honestly not my fault, we had exploding transformers and fires and allsorts. But the internet is on again (and in colour too!) Neri, having been repeatedly told that the CROUCHING TIGER is fragile, is now jumping up and down on it with unconcealed glee. Dungrollin runs around on deck desperately trying to staple it back together as crack after crevice reveals the choppy waters below... Neri: Erm , if Junior is dead, Senior was memory-harmed and now is also dead, the Longbottoms will never recover, and Bella and DD had never suspected, then how would Harry and us ever learn about the nice story above? Dung: In this scenario Dumbledore was the one who memory charmed Crouch and the Longbottoms, at the trial, Bella underlines the fact that they were trying to find out where Voldemort was. Dumbledore doesn't yet know about the bubblegum wrappers, but he may well be able to put two and two together. In other words, I don't know. If I'm not sunk utterly on Saturday, I'll have a longer think about it. > Dungrollin, previously: > By the way, Neri, I've been meaning to ask (and sorry for crossing > TBAYs), but how is the VASSAL coping with "In choosing which boy to > murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to > anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard > possessed - the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window > into Voldemort's mind?" (JKR's most recent FAQ answer.) Neri: I truly don't see why the above constitutes any problem for VASSAL. Could you elaborate? Dungrollin is sulking amongst the rapidly disintegrating mess that is the CROUCHING TIGER, and petulantly aims a firecracker at the undefended VASSAL in the dock: Have I misremembered it? I thought the VASSAL was originally Mind- Linked!Snape, that Snape has been spying on Voldy through a mind link that they share, which Voldy thought he'd got rid of, but is actually permanent. However, JKR says that no other wizard (aside from Harry) has a magical window into Voldemort's mind. Or was there an addendum that I've forgotten about? Or did it morph away from that? Or did I completely misunderstand the whole thing? Dung begins to mumble. Unbeknownst to her, Debbie had pulled alongside in the Memory Charm paddleboat, and had been examining the overall design and the singular can(n)on on the CROUCHING TIGER. "Why, yes, Dungrollin! We're all just speculating our way through the gaping holes in the Longbottom story, and yours is as plausible as any. JKR has certainly been telegraphing to us that it's an important bit of backstory." > To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and > Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had > been placed on Frank and Alice. The rest is all trying to make > sense of it. "How about if I give you an extra bit of canon?" Debbie tossed a can (n)on onto the deck. Dung admired the can(n)on, and looked around at Debbie, who was slightly blurred around the edges (due to the firewhisky). "Thank you Debbie. Thank you thank you thank you." "A toast to Memory Charm theories!" Dung slung the nearly empty bottle of firewhisky in the general direction of the toast, and collapsed in a heap in the corner, singing quietly "We will all go together when we go..." From rcraswel at stanford.edu Thu Jul 14 14:21:46 2005 From: rcraswel at stanford.edu (Dick Craswell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:21:46 -0700 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050714064638.02d1d5e0@rcraswel.pobox.stanford.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 132745 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore. (Though it's possible that his fate will be left uncertain at the end of this book, and his death won't be confirmed until Book 7.) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The source of the spell (or technology, or whatever) that enabled her to shield Harry from Lord Voldemort, which is based on whatever's in the locked room at the Ministry of Magic. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy. AKA Felix. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody, in this book. But he'll have some more scenes with Luna that lead some people -- incorrectly, as it will turn out -- to think that Luna is a real possibility. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve, of course. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. (Or twelve, if the theory and practical sections of each subject are counted separately.) Predictions (0-10 points each): (1) The new Minister of Magic will be just the opposite of Fudge, as the new Minister will be extremely and even OVERLY zealous in carrying out the war against Voldemort. (2) As a result of the new Minister's efforts -- however well-intentioned they might be -- the freedoms of innocent witches and wizards will be threatened, and at least one innocent person will be accused (incorrectly) of collaborating with Voldemort. (3) Rita Skeeter will return to newswriting, and will oppose the Ministry's overzealous actions. (She'll also become somewhat less annoying, but that's probably too subjective to count as a prediction.) (4) Harry will do something to win the respect or gratitude of the centaurs of the Forbidden Forest, thus bringing them onto the good guys' side in the war against Voldemort. (5) The reapparance of Viktor Krum will force Ron to start to become aware of his feelings for Hermione. rcraswel From kkersey at swbell.net Thu Jul 14 16:08:18 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:08:18 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132746 Elisabet's entry: > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Viktor Krum. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe > more.) New Character. But a historical one, not one that Harry meets in person. Finding something the HBP possessed or perhaps his identity will be the impetus for some character's actions. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Something Harry won't like hearing about - perhaps that she has done something Not Very Nice like dabbe in the dark arts. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New character - who knows something about the half-blood prince. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nothing approaching a relationship. He'll go on a date and pull a Cho - be caught up in his grief over Sirius and his own feelings, and thus be something less than an ideal date for his companion. Hermione will be more likely than Harry to recognize the parallel with Cho's behaviour. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course! > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. What would poor Snape do without Neville to torment? > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine. Random number, that guess. > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only the first 5 > predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Someone will get a Hogwart's letter as an adult - a 44-year old adult, whose birthday is on February 29th. JKR said that you must show magic before your *eleventh birthday* to qualify. 2. That someone is Petunia. 3. Harry's casting the Cruciatus on another human being will *not* be without serious consequences - whether those consequences are through the legal system or not, Harry will learn to regret having done it. JKR named those curses Unforgivable, not Unforgiveable-unless-cast-by-our-hero. [Note: I hope that the second part of the sentence above makes up for my having used the word "not" in stating the prediction! If that would disqualify me, please consider the alternative phrasing ".... will have serious consequences". :-p] 4. There is more to Vernon's antipathy toward wizards and magic than simple prejudice (how could a muggle be *pre*-judiced against a wizarding society they've never heard of?). 5. Hermione will continue to press the house-elf issue, and as her understanding of the issue and its complexities deepens, her tactics and even goals will evolve (e.g. the "fair wages" demand may be dropped in favor of a more appropriate kind of compensation). Ultimately, her interest in elf rights will be vindicated by the author. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 16:15:01 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:15:01 -0000 Subject: HBP: Back Cover of Deluxe Version - Did any one else see this? In-Reply-To: <20050714135115.99860.qmail@web50910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jeanelle Topping wrote: > SPOILER > > > > > SPOILER > > > > SPOILER > > > > SPOILER > > > I was just looking very closely at the blow up of the > back cover of the Deluxe book. Did anyone else notice > the face or drawing (?) on the path leading to the > cottage? **************************** Tonks: I saw that too. In the blown up version I also saw a lot of things that are either just odd parts of the drawing when it is enlarged that much, or... I thought the animal in the tree was a cat. But it is very hard to tell, it can also just be a color on the branch. And near the bottom there looks like a severed arm and the faces of people. This is in the bottom center under all of the branches. I think that the man is Peter and he is going to see LV in his hideaway. And DD and Harry are following him. Tonks_op From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:22:30 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:22:30 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132748 REVISED PREDICTIONS > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Severus Snape > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Colin Creevey. Sounds ridiculous I know but I have a source who has a source who has a source that insists it's true and what the heck, it's not like there's money riding on it. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That she was an outsanding legilimens. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy, a new character with little or no connection to anyone. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He'll get closer to one with Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine, including potions. Excluding divination and history of magic. > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. We will learn that Ron is an excellent swimmer > 2. A new animal will be introduced that will either be a comination of two other animals (like a hippogriff) or very much like a regular muggle animal but different (like a unicorn) > 3. We will learn Aunt Petunia's big secret whatever that is > 4. We will not learn who wins the House Cup > 5. Hermione will spend hours examining the wording of the prophecy and find something that Harry didn't -- Gregory Lynn From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:44:38 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:44:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione the animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132749 ...Snipped... > And speaking of animagi, I think it is possible that the old lion guy > is Crookshanks in his true human form. I never believed that he was > really a cat. As a cat he doesn't limp, but he is described as "bandy- > legged", and he has two extra legs to walk on as a cat. I'm pretty > sure > he has yellow eyes, too. > > Apologies if this has all been discussed before. > > > snipsnapsnurr Toni now... Hasn't JKR basically told us that Crookshanks is half Kneazel? I can't quote it (sorry!) because I can't remember where I read it. I suspect he was probably the product of Mrs. Figg successfully mating cats and Kneazels. I completely agree about the high probablility of Hermione becoming an animagus -- it seems like she's mentioned them at least once a book since POA, and she seems to have a certain fascination with them. I'm not sure about a squirrel though...with the exception of physically, she doesn't seem very squirrel-like to me, plus her teeth are normal-sized now. My opinion, of course! ok -- back to work! --Toni From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 14:46:19 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:19 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Brazilian back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132750 S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E WOW. So, any speculation on why Dumbledore is visiting Harry during the summer?? What is it he needs to tell him????????????? From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 17:05:34 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:05:34 -0000 Subject: SPOILER ALERT! Connections between the covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132751 Please be warned this post discusses information given in the British Edition back cover text SPOILER SPACE END OF SAME OK, here goes... The British back cover text mentions and "unseasonable mist" in Privet Drive, and says the the muggle and magical worlds are intertwining. Obviously if the mist is magical in origin, the fact that muggles can see it is one way in which the worlds are overlapping. Looking then at the American back cover artwork, we see Ron et al surrounded by mist as they look up at the Dark Mark. Could it be a muggle city or town in the background? Hard to tell with all the mist! A good bet the mist is connected to WWII beginning in earnest. Any thoughts on how it might be connected? For those who follow the Alchemical symbolism in the books, having mist in book 6 would back up John Granger's theory of the last three books corresponding to the three stages of alchemy: Book 5 = black work = purification; Privet drive hot and dry Book 6 = white work = washing; Privet Drive mysteriously misty Book 7 = red work = ??? expect a lot of fire and gold symbolism Also Dumbledore is all over the place in both text and covers and his first name Albus translates as "White." Just some thoughts to pass the time until midnight tomorrow... Inkling From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 17:12:49 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:12:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: Anthem of the SWAK DEAD Message-ID: <110.4dadbb55.3007f711@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132752 fuzzlebub85 at a... wrote: > Which goes back to what Crouch!Moody says...it needs powerful > magic behind it. Which means...we've been seriously > underestimating one Peter Pettigrew, I think." > > "Pettigrew mastered the Animagus transformation at sixteen... > He managed to brew Voldemort's rebirthing potion... > He talks back to Voldemort. > He bites the finger of a boy the size of a Volkswagen. > He manages to spy on the order and master Legimens... > Pettigrew might be morally bankrupt and lacking in self- > determination, but he has courage and magical power that we have > not seen the other Death Eaters demonstrate. Yes, but Voldemort himself calls him something like a "miserable wizard" or something else derisive during his speech to the DEs in GoF. I think this is a bit of a goof - either AK isn't that hard to do, or Peter shouldn't be able to do it, or maybe he can only do it using LV's wand because LV has somehow given him a little extra boost to do things like that. - davenclaw First Mate Kaylee here defending the ship once again... Well, for one thing, since Tom Riddle is a liar (JKR said he was lying about the "werewolf cubs" under Hagrid's bed, then obviously he framed Hagrid in the diary memory and so on) I believe Voldemort, his future self, to be quite a good liar too. I wouldn't take much of ANYTHING Voldemort said at face value. It seems to me that was just to keep Wormtail in his place, as well as being part of Wormtail's cover among the DE's, so that no one realized how important or powerful Wormtail really was (is). Back to the ship for me! First Mate Kaylee Tonks-Lupin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 17:00:53 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:00:53 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Brazilian back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E S P O I L E R S P A C E > > WOW. So, any speculation on why Dumbledore is visiting Harry > during the summer?? What is it he needs to tell him????????????? I'm hoping there is a Big Reveal involving Petunia! He may just be personally escorting him to the Burrow... I really liked someone's prediction that the reason he leaves early is for Bill and Fleur's wedding. A more exciting reason would be that DD wants his direct and immediate assistance with the Order. He's going on assignment! Cool! - davenclaw From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 17:31:16 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:31:16 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" > wrote: > > Geoff Bannister > > > You must forgive me but I fell about laughing when I read the title > > of this thread - and I suspect a number of UK members did the > same..... > > > > Amiable Dorsai: > > > > Oh dear... > > > > So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? > > I was going to keep out of this one, as it's definately OT (will the > elves give us some leyway as we are 'demob happy'?) but that last > sentance has got me howling and tears pouring down my face. All I'll > say to the poor Americans and others reading this, is that all this > comment has done is ahem, narrow down the target area of the contents > of his drawers!! > > Cricket anyone? > > Karen Even as an American, trust me, I am finding this *frightfully* humorous. My opinion...I bet we would not find anything *very magical.* Julie From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 17:39:10 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:39:10 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Anthem of the SWAK DEAD In-Reply-To: <110.4dadbb55.3007f711@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132755 Davenclaw wrote: Yes, but Voldemort himself calls him something like a "miserable wizard" or something else derisive during his speech to the DEs in GoF. I think this is a bit of a goof - either AK isn't that hard to do, or Peter shouldn't be able to do it, or maybe he can only do it using LV's wand because LV has somehow given him a little extra boost to do things like that.<< KathyK: Kaylee already covered why we might not take LV's word on Pettigrew's ability, so I'll leave that. I've always thought Pettigrew must be more powerful than we are led to believe. I mean, our main source of information on Peter's abilities are an angry and vengeful Sirius. He could have been exaggerating Wormtail's weakness. Or perhaps not. It's likely he was simply underestimating Pettigrew. According to McGonagall in PoA, Sirius and James were "exceptionally bright."* Now those exceptionally bright people who don't need to study (See OoP, "Snape's Worst Memory"), may simply *think* Pettigrew weak and incompetent in comparison with their own abilities. Our other source of information, that Pettigrew was "Never quite in thier league, talent-wise,"* and was hopeless at dueling, is McGonagall. I'd wonder what being hopeless at dueling entails. Is it that he's unable to do the spells, or that he's just not as quick on his feet with casting as others? And she does say Wormtail was not in James and Sirius's league, not that he had no abilities or talent. So I think it quite likely Peter is able to cast AK all on his own. *All PoA quotes come from Ch. 10 "The Marauder's Map" KathyK, cutting it short and dashing off to work From kempermentor at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 18:28:39 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:28:39 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew: hopeless at dueling was Re: TBAY: Anthem of the SWAK DEAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132756 Davenclaw wrote: Yes, but Voldemort himself calls him something like a "miserable wizard" or something else derisive during his speech to the DEs in GoF. I think this is a bit of a goof - either AK isn't that hard to do, or Peter shouldn't be able to do it, or maybe he can only do it using LV's wand because LV has somehow given him a little extra boost to do things like that.<< KathyK responded: ...edit... Our other source of information, that Pettigrew was "Never quite in thier league, talent-wise,"* and was hopeless at dueling, is McGonagall. I'd wonder what being hopeless at dueling entails. Is it that he's unable to do the spells, or that he's just not as quick on his feet with casting as others? And she does say Wormtail was not in James and Sirius's league, not that he had no abilities or talent. So I think it quite likely Peter is able to cast AK all on his own. Kemper now: You got me thinking KathyK. What if McGonagall is referring to his work in the Order? Let's say he got in a few duels with some Death Eaters. He doesn't want to AK them and tick off LV, his master. So instead, he casts weaker spells, mis-aims, or drops his wand. McGonagall may have commented to one of the others in the Order during VWI, "That Peter, so inept but so brave... a pitty we're out numbered 20 to 1, we could really use someone with some dueling skills... or even nunchuck skils." I'm curious on when he was practicing the AK. Perhaps he was involved in some ambushes of Order members. Kemper who has 36hours to wait... From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 18:45:13 2005 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:45:13 -0400 Subject: HBP Predictions In-Reply-To: <1121322463.1811.3239.m30@yahoogroups.com> References: <1121322463.1811.3239.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C756BB4E317006-940-1E7DF@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132757 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley, after having to choose between the corrupt ministry and his family, the Death Eaters will eliminate him for his stupidity. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid...His past from CoS is still very mysterious, and JKR did state that CoS was originally titled "Half-Blood Prince". 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) It must be something with her eyes. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Old Lion Guy...he is a retired member of the Order, possibly was an auror, and of course is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor. He will teach Harry very powerful and advanced magic in order to prepare him for the final fight against Voldemort (His character is almost like the combination of Mad-Eye, Dumbledore, and Lupin). 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna, she is the only person at Hogwarts that Harry can truly relate to. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. She is sooo smart. Or if the DADA teacher is not the old lion guy, then he will be the new minister. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of COurse! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No--he'll be focusing on Herbology 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Care of Magical Creatures, Potions, History of Magic, Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts Predictions: 1. Ron will realize that he is in love with Hermione. 2. Professor Binns will explain the true nature of death and ghosthood, and explain to Harry about Sirius' death. 3. Professor Sinistra will be revelaed to be evil. 4. Petunia, though neither a Squib nor a Wizard, will perform magic because of an incredible circumstance. 5. NEville will learn about the prophecy. 6. Snape will reveal that he is a vampire. 7. We will find out that Harry is a direct descendant of Gryffindor, and Voldemort of Slytherin, and that Harry and Voldemort are connected by the age-old feud of their ancestors. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From allthingshp at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 17:22:08 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:22:08 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find close > to unforgivable. > It probably means nothing, but I don't like how when she is imagining everyone dead during the boggart scene she doesn't picture Ginny...but maybe Harry walked in late and she had already seen her. It is just odd that JKR mentions her seeing everyone else in the family.... -allthingshp From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 18:58:55 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:58:55 -0000 Subject: Extraordinary magic in the climax Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132759 Has anyone else noticed that the climax/resolutions of the books generally seem to involved magic that goes beyond anything else we see in the books? PS/SS - The Mirror of ERISED can actually manipulate objects in the room based on the desires of the looker! CoS - Loyalty to Dumbledore summon Fawkes... carrying the Sorting Hat... containing Gryffindor's sword!! Who saw that coming? PoA - A bit different... we are aware of Animagi, and it's no shocker that there is time travel involved given Hermione's class schedule, and we are familiar with Patroni, but the conclusion to this book incorporates a) three characters having turned themselves into animagi; b) three hours of time travel; c) Harry conjuring a Patronus, that d) is his father's animagus form. GoF - That crazy scene with the golden dome, the phoenix song, the Priori Incatatum that generated "shadow spells" that actually knew what was going on, rooted for Harry, and held LV back for a few seconds so Harry could run to the Cup. Crazy stuff! OoP - Statues coming to life, the Veil... I don't have it with me and it's been a month since I read this but I seem to remember some other intense magical activity going on between LV and DD. It's pretty neat stuff, but I confess that my initial reaction to some of these things was that it was a bit over the top to have a hopeless situation end up being resolved using magic that was barely hinted at in the books, if at all. Did anyone else have this reaction? I think I was rolling my eyes particularly at the way the Stone ended up in Harry's pocket. I hate to complain, I love the books, but sometimes you want Harry to just win outright by nailing LV or a DE with a good hex or two. The Patronus in PoA was especially satisfying for this reason. - davenclaw From hermionesmum at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 17:54:48 2005 From: hermionesmum at yahoo.com (Sam Edwards) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP contest, my answers and predictions Message-ID: <20050714175448.80142.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132760 Hi There, I've not had early access to the books, and a lot of this is probably still all wrong! I won't pretend I've not been pouncing on every spoiler going over the last few days and they have swayed my thinking. I'll leave some space for those avoiding spoilers, as I've mentioned them. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Technically Harry. I'm predicting that JKR is going to be showing us something representative of Christ's Resurrection. He'll be back in book seven. Jim Dale's comment, "The ending is a real cliffhanger, you really can't see where she can go from here," made me think of this. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Lupin 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She planned the ancient magic protecting Harry by sacrificing herself. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Prof. Lupin senior, the "Old Lion Guy" we got a glimpse of a few months ago. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I don't know, but it's not a pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? eight Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. will anyone listen to me...TONKS IS EVIL. Not an original theory, but yes Harry is a metamorphamagus. It's another ability to make choices about, like the ability to speak parceltongue didn't automatically make him evil in book two. I've ranted about this in chat a couple of times now. 2. Spinner's End, the chapter title we were given on JKR's website, refers to The Lovegood family home. (cmbrichards, a regular sunday chatter, and I came up with this one. Don't want to claim all the credit.) 3.There will be a number of deaths, none of them Dumbledore. They will include Hagrid and Vernon Dursley. 4. Karakoff may be a coward, but he'll redeem himself and wind up on the side of the light. This will be rather difficult to swallow. (Going back to my Christian viewpoint, crossing the lake as first years and the arrival of the Drumstrang ship in GoF are, to me, representative of baptism. Karakoff and Snape are like the thieves crucified with Christ, one of them asked to go with him. 5. Voldemort got his coward and "the one who has left me forever" mixed up. He'll kill Snape and attempt to work with Karakoff. If we get to see into Snape's head at some point we'll find out he regularly has doubts about his support for Dumbledore. 29 hrs and fifteen minutes to go...do I get bonus points for predicting that JKR has pretty much finished book seven, we'll have to wait less than a year. She's not that cruel to do this to us again! Sam (who's never actually posted to the main list before, but has been a regular Sunday chatter and OTChatter poster for about eighteen months) I'm finally daring to join in on the main list. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From EBeth0000 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 19:17:47 2005 From: EBeth0000 at hotmail.com (ebeth0000000000) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:17:47 -0000 Subject: Extraordinary magic in the climax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: Has anyone else noticed that the climax/resolutions of the books > generally seem to involved magic that goes beyond anything else we > see in the books? SNIP > It's pretty neat stuff, but I confess that my initial reaction to > some of these things was that it was a bit over the top to have a > hopeless situation end up being resolved using magic that was barely > hinted at in the books, if at all. Did anyone else have this > reaction? I think I was rolling my eyes particularly at the way the > Stone ended up in Harry's pocket. I must respectfully disagree, davenclaw, at least about the PS/SS. The books show us characters regularly conjuring and vanishing objects, in fact, it seems to be a normal occurrence in the HPverse. My theory was always that the mirror was bewitched to conjure the stone as an automatic function (rather like my computer has one-click shopping at Amazon!) and that the conjuring would only occur after the mirror determined, using some form of what we now know in the WW is legimency, that the person using the mirror only wanted to FIND the stone, not USE it. Seems pretty straightforward to me, and also in keeping with the rules JKR has set up for her own universe. EB From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 19:26:43 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Extraordinary magic in the climax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714192644.53126.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132762 EB wrote: ...edited... > The books show us characters regularly conjuring and > vanishing > objects, in fact, it seems to be a normal occurrence > in the HPverse. > > My theory was always that the mirror was bewitched > to conjure the stone as an automatic function and that the conjuring would only occur after the > mirror determined, using some form of what we now > know in the WW is > legimency, that the person using the mirror only > wanted to FIND the > stone, not USE it. > If this magic used to hide the PS was so simple, and so common, then why doesn't everyone know how to? AFAIK there are only 3 legimens (DD, LV, Snape). Conjuring things are much easier, but WHO has ever conjured a PS? No-one. There's also the fact that the greatest wizard of the time (Dumbledore) says it was one of his most clever ideas... that means to me it's no ordinary magic. I agree with Davenclaw, at the very end of every book we've seen some very cool magic, a kind of magic we've never seen before, so probably the HBP will be the same (I hope so) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rkelley at blazingisp.net Thu Jul 14 19:24:03 2005 From: rkelley at blazingisp.net (Rick & LeAnn Kelley) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:24:03 -0500 Subject: revised HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132763 _____ 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Snape. His father was a titled vampire. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an Unspeakable working on the power of love in the DOM 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill Weasley 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Godric Gryffindor's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven, in DADA, Potions, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms, History and Transfiguration. He missed Astronomy and Divination. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Narcissa Malfoy is a metamorphmagus and will sneak into Hogwarts to do dastardly deeds. 2. Hagrid and Madame Maxime marry. 3. Trevor the Toad and Mrs. Norris are humans who were transfigured. 4. Snape brews a potion for Harry that will "put a stopper in death" and Harry walks through the veil, then returns unharmed. 5. The Lovegoods find a crumpled-horn snorkack. (Predictions I wish would happen but have little hope.) 6. Lucius Malfoy discovers he was adopted and he is really a muggle. 7. Sirius Black was transfigured by his brother Regulus into Trevor the Toad, and Regulus took his identity in order to escape Voldy's wrath. It was actually Regulus who was killed in OOTP. 8. Grawp and Dolores Umbridge fell in love during her sojourn in the forest, and he carries her away to his mountain hideaway where they have twelve half-human, half-giant children. On the back of Grawp's hand is etched, "My wife is always right." 9. Draco sneaks out some of the forbidden dark arts artifacts from beneath his family's drawing room, tries to use them against Harry, but they backfire on himself and he permanently becomes the amazing bouncing ferret. 10. Trelawney's room is always hot and perfumed because the "sleeping dragon of Hogwarts" lives in her tower, and he makes the heat. She sprays perfume to cover his dragon breath. Swizzlewand [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bdeitrick at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 19:26:48 2005 From: bdeitrick at gmail.com (Beata Wai Ieng Ho Deitrick) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:26:48 +0900 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Extraordinary magic in the climax In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132764 davenclaw said: > Has anyone else noticed that the climax/resolutions of the books > generally seem to involved magic that goes beyond anything else we > see in the books? > It's pretty neat stuff, but I confess that my initial reaction to > some of these things was that it was a bit over the top to have a > hopeless situation end up being resolved using magic that was barely > hinted at in the books, if at all. > I think I was rolling my eyes particularly at the way the > Stone ended up in Harry's pocket. I hate to complain, I love the > books, but sometimes you want Harry to just win outright by nailing > LV or a DE with a good hex or two. Beata: I hadn't noticed the magic that Rowling introduces each book to resolve it, but now that you mention it, it does make sense. I agree with you that sometimes I think that Harry should kick a little butt, but probably this all makes sense. First of all, the stone fell into Harry's pocket in PS/SS works. Harry, at that point in time, doesn't know a lot of magic yet. So there really isn't an option as to how he could get the stone otherwise, and yet the plot still make sense for Voldemort not to be able to get the stone. Personally, I thought that the Mirror of Erised worked very well as a plot device in a couple of ways. In addition to its role with the stone, it also being the reader's understanding of how much Harry longs for his parents. I do agree that the Fawkes thing from CoS was a little out of the blue. Dumbledore did foreshadow it, but Fawkes didn't really serve much of a purpose other than that. As for all the rest, I do think that they all had enough significance to the plot in addition to its function in the end so that it makes sense. I'm sure part of the reason that the magic has gotten more and more "strange" is that as Harry grows up, he is starting to know more advanced spells. Also, WWII has just started, so more chaos is bound to happen. On a more literary standpoint, the readers have now been introduced to more and more spells each book, so it does make sense for there to be an increasing number of spells (and other magical objects) because in a way, we're learning with Harry. Beata Deitrick From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 19:41:50 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:41:50 -0000 Subject: Short Note: And you thought your ideas were... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132765 desperate. Here is a short clip from an article in The Australian. "The Sixth Sense" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15931619%5E28737,00.html "Fellow Sydneysider Toby Stratford, 8, has other ideas. "I think Harry Potter will be fighting against a prince with just half a leg and half an arm on a little island of lava," he says." ...and you thought you had some strange threories. Sorry, for the short post, but I thought this was certainly a fun and new take on the Half-Blood-Arm-Leg Prince. Steve.bboyminn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 19:51:36 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:51:36 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132766 allthingshp wrote: "It probably means nothing, but I don't like how when she is imagining everyone dead during the boggart scene she doesn't picture Ginny...but maybe Harry walked in late and she had already seen her. It is just odd that JKR mentions her seeing everyone else in the family...." Del replies: Well, maybe Molly "forgot" about her twins, but you sure forgot about Charlie ;-) He's not mentioned. It seems like Harry did walk in late, since he heard Molly crying while he was still outside the room. So she must have been fighting the Boggart for a little while when Harry found her. Del From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 19:44:12 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:44:12 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132767 "gelite67" > wrote: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > A > > L > > E > > R > > T > > ! > > ! > > > Angie again (probably breaking rules replying to my own post): > > I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's head and what > looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. The mystery > deepens . . . . jmoses I ran the picture through picasa, and shined some light on the "knife." It appears to be in a naturally forming hole in the tree, and with the way it is positioned it looks like a lever to me. JMHO From amanda_k429 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 20:27:38 2005 From: amanda_k429 at yahoo.com (amanda_k429) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:27:38 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132768 This is actually my first post, since I am a new member to the group! But, I suppose it's a good way to start. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? This is a tough one, but I got it right in OoTP! I think it will probably be Dumbeldore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) An acquaintance of Dumbeldore's that we haven't had the pleasure of meeting just yet. He will be introduced in the first few chapters, but we won't know he's the HBP until later. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I believe that the big secret will come from Petunia, but it may concern Lily. It's probably about Lily's morphing abilities that she has passed on to Harry... 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. This makes it possible for Harry to get into the NEWT level of potions since the new professor won't be as strict as Snape was, and Harry's already going to have an O in DADA! 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley, after much confusion over his feelings, and Ron's feelings, even if Ron always seemed indifferent to the possibility of Harry and Ginny getting involved. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Voldemort's Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, since Snape won't be teaching it. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, since he didn't have Snape on his back during the Owl exam. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. Ron and Hermione will get together, but it will not be a publicized matter, they will keep it very private. 2. Sirius will play a part in helping Harry face his destiny and help him through his dillema of how to battle against LV 3. Harry will realize he's a morphmagous after remembering that he grew his hair back after Petunia cut it off, but he will never be able to get rid of his scar 4. Both Firenze and Trelawney will both continue to teach divination, but since they teach separate types they may have to divide class schedules and let people choose which to take. Harry may stay in Firenze's class to see if he can figure out what's ahead for the WW. 5. Harry will come into contact with Pettigrew again while fighting against Lord Voldemort, and Pettigrew will try to protect Harry, letting Harry have a chance to escape, but Pettigrew will be killed after that. I doubt that I will be reading some of this stuff in 32 and 1/2 hours (It's so close now!) but it sure is fun to predict. Amanda From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 20:38:38 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:38:38 -0000 Subject: Twins or individuals? (was Re: Molly's worst moment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132769 Talking about Molly's boggart reminded me of one thing that bugs me a little - the fact that I can't distinguish Fred and George. I've tried to see differences in their personalities but *most* of the time their reactions are similar or even identical. When Molly sees their boggart, there is one boggart for both twins but separate boggarts for the other children. Racking my brains for differences, the only ones I can think of are that Fred takes Angelina to the Yule Ball, but I can't find mention of George's date (but I'm probably being thick!) and, to my mind, Geroge seems a little less serious in tone than Fred sometimes (but that may be my imagination). I worry that Fred'n'George are one character with two bodies... do you think JKR will finally distinguish one from the other? JLV xx From Watersapphires at aol.com Thu Jul 14 20:39:37 2005 From: Watersapphires at aol.com (Watersapphires at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:39:37 EDT Subject: HP contest Message-ID: <8c.2aeb4372.30082789@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132770 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasly 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? A new character 3. What is Lily's big secret? Her parents were both squibs. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny (though he will end up with Hermione in the end) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Griselda Marchbanks 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven in DADA, Potions, Herbology, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms, Transfiguration, and Divination. He missed Astronomy and History. Predictions: 1. Lily's parents were both squibs, which is why they were so proud of the fact that she was a witch. This is also why Petunia knows about the wizarding world. 2. Snape was in love with Lily. When he found out about Voldemort's plan to kill Harry, he changed sides. Snape hates Harry because he looks so much like James. 3. Harry will save Snape's life, and that's when he will confess that he loved Harry's mother. 4. Neville will become a better wizard due to getting a new wand. 5. It will be revealed that there was a memory charm put on Neville as a baby. 6. Draco will become less evil, because everyone gets a second chance. He will be redeemed. Watersapphires [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anurim at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 20:52:22 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Twins or individuals? (was Re: Molly's worst moment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714205222.40499.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132771 --- jlv230 wrote: > Racking my brains for differences, the only ones I > can think of are > that Fred takes Angelina to the Yule Ball, but I > can't find mention of > George's date (but I'm probably being thick!) and, > to my mind, Geroge > seems a little less serious in tone than Fred > sometimes (but that may > be my imagination). > > I worry that Fred'n'George are one character with > two bodies... do you > think JKR will finally distinguish one from the > other? It could be my imagination too, but I have already read them as slightly different in personality. George seems more sensitive, Fred more daring, but this is a gross simplification. Let's say that I can see Fred as able to go to(ward) the dark side easier than George. Since I love the twins, if anybody is interested I promise I'll try to write an essay on this theme after we all have time to digest the HBP. Mira __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 20:53:45 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Twins or individuals? (was Re: Molly's worst moment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714205345.67030.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132772 --- jlv230 wrote: > Racking my brains for differences, the only ones I > can think of are > that Fred takes Angelina to the Yule Ball, but I > can't find mention of > George's date (but I'm probably being thick!) and, > to my mind, George > seems a little less serious in tone than Fred > sometimes (but that may > be my imagination). > I think being a twin is something you just can't scape from, no matter what you do, you'll always be "the twin". Actually George seems a bit more serious than Fred, he's a bit more quiet, more respectful than Fred. I think they like acting as one, they enjoy when people don't know who each one is, they have fun making jokes about their appearances. But their personalities have clear boundaries, there's no way they act as one. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From phoenixtears at fuse.net Thu Jul 14 20:57:09 2005 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:57:09 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 31 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132773 1. Who will be the most major character to die? The new DADA professor The pattern is that the DADA professor is always gone by the end of the book (dies, quits,etc.). I think Dumbledore will exert himself given recent events to get an excellent teacher for both Harry and the other students, and death will be what removes him/her, after Harry grows attached to this person . 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A completely new character, never mentioned before. JKR is British; Great Britain has a hereditary monarch who is more of a figurehead; I am wondering if she will introduce a similar concept to her magical world. While others have suggested a child character, the British Prince Charles is an adult. The Half Blood Prince could be the adult offspring of a pure blood monarch and a muggle spouse, and the suitability of this person to assume the throne could be a controversy in the magical world. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily was an Unspeakable, working in the Department of Mysteries. During her research she either discovered an old, or created a new, charm/spell which she used to protect Harry from Voldemort's attack. Her death was an essential component of the spell, which is why she begged Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Old Lion Guy For JKR to describe him, I expect him to be an important character, but given the intense curiosity about the Half Blood Prince, I would not expect her to reveal information about the latter. At the end the secret of the DADA professor, and there always is one, will be a blood relationship to the HBP. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. As Ron and Hermione begin to explore a romantic relationship, Harry will be left out, or exclude himself because of his discomfort as he perceives their feelings for each other. As Ginny has shown herself more comfortable around Harry, still concerned about his well being, and more accepted into the inner circle, Harry will turn to her for friendship, which will eventually evolve into a romantic interest. Having been possessed by Voldemort, Ginny is better able than most to understand Harry's situation and feelings. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones, Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement This is the department Barty Crouch, Sr. headed when he was in the running for the Minister position, so this seems to be an important position in the Ministry and a good precursor to advancement. Given the recent revelation of Voldemort's return, following Fudge's pattern of denial, it seems to me that the new Minister would be someone who either supported Dumbledore, or did not actively counter him. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The Pensieve (what else could it be?) Dumbledore uses it to show Harry more about his parents, past events related to Voldemort, teaching him things that might be useful in his confrontation with Voldemort. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. The cover of the "Adult" HBP book has a picture of Advance Potion making textbook. Also, since Harry wants to be an auror, and he needs this class to pursue this career goal, he will get in this class one way or another, even if Dumbledore has to intervene (but I don't think he will need to; see Q #10.) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. Neville will want to be a Healer, with the aim of wishing to find a cure for his parents. He needs Potions for that. He has shown he can do well when not under too much pressure, and will have done well in the exam because of Snape's absence. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six: An O in DADA & Potions; E in Transfiguration, Charms, and COMC; A or E in Herbology McGonagall says he needs NEWTS in DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, & Charms, plus one other subject to pursue auror training. Predictions based on the book's description of how well Harry thought he did, and considering what grade he needs to get into the advanced classes. Note that Professor Marchbanks, friend of Dumbledore, oversaw the Potions practical exam, and she could have influence in what grade Harry got in that subject, as well as Neville's grade. Other Predictions: 1) Professor Dumbledore will meet with Harry over the summer to teach him Occlumency. He says at the end of OotP that he should have done it himself, and Harry clearly still needs help with closing his mind to Voldemort, especially since Harry knows he will need to face Voldemort again. There is no longer any need to pretend about the depth of the relationship between Dumbledore and Harry.. 2) Hermione and Ron will come to visit Harry at Privet Drive. (At the end of OofP, Ron says "We'll see you soon," and Herminone adds "Really soon." There is no longer any need for them to worry about the Dursleys' reaction to contact from Harry's friends, given the warning from Moody, Lupin, etc.) 3) Ginny will become a Prefect. All her brothers but the troublemaking twins have been Prefects. 4) Harry will be made Captain of the Quidditch team. He has shown leadership skills in the DA, is really good at Quidditch, has been on the team all previous years, and needs some sop to his ego since he hasn't been made prefect. 5) Ron will also decide to pursue auror training, and take all the same classes as Harry so they can commiserate together about homework. Hermione will be undecided about her career, and continue to take everything she has already. 6)The bartender of the Hog's Head will be revealed to be Aberforth, the brother of Dumbledore. (Appearance reminds Harry of someone-tall, thin, great deal of long gray hair-and strong smell of goats in the pub. This may not come until Book 7.) 7) Petunia will reveal that she actually has some small amount of magicical ability in her, but decided to renounce all magic because of jealousy over her sister's much greater powers. She is the one predicted to do magic late in life. (This may not come out until Book 7.) From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 14 13:16:18 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:16:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super News Flash! Bloomsbury releases text of Back cover! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c58876$393043b0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 132774 Go to http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/ click on News, then click on Back Cover Copy Released There is also a link on mugglenet. Enjoy! Sherry now: When I went to the site, and went to the link for the back cover, I came to a flash site, which I cannot navigate with my screen reading software. The text link just took me to a bio of JKR. Can anyone show great mercy and email me a text version of what the back cover says, or point me to a link where I can find a text version? Thanks! Dying of curiosity, Sherry sherriola at earthlink.net From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:20:26 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:20:26 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- If you want to change your predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132775 If you want to change your answers in the HBP prediction contest, send a complete, entirely new entry (all 10 compulsory questions and 5 predictions) both to the list and to TigerPatronus. I will delete your old entry upon receipt of the new one. I cannot change single answers within an old entry. I can only replace an old entry with a new one. These *must* reach my email by MIDNIGHT, TONIGHT, EDT. Sorry about the shouting, but sometimes *bold* just isn't strident enough. TK -- TigerPatronus From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Thu Jul 14 13:24:17 2005 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (Vinnia) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:24:17 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost -- 2 days left -- email entry to Tiger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714132417.54852.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132776 1. Who will be the most major character to die? No major character death. There will be some minor characters deaths, including a character introduced in HBP. Madame Rosmerta and/or the shopkeeper of Honeydukes is also going to die 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Felix Felicis. Felix Felicis(the lion guy) is a king by right, but he's in exile. He travels far and wide, has plenty of practical defence experiences. His adventure with vampire was "borrowed" by Lockhart. He accidentally shared some immortality facts with Voldemort, that helped Voldemort with whatever he was doing in trying to avoid death. After Lockhart was finished with him, however, he forgot about all this. In book 6, he will remember, or re-learn his past life, but he will lose his claim to the throne. And oh...at some point he was Tom Riddle's cat when Tom was at school (Felix is an animagus. He's also married to McGonagall). And of course, Voldemort wants to kill him because he knows to much. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Why Voldemort was willing to spare her. I'm not sure this is going to be covered in HBP tho...probably in book 7. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, the lion guy whose name is Felix Felicis. See answer for question 2 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one. Not in HBP anyway. There will be love interest(Susan Bones) , but no definite relationship. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? When Fudge is voted out of office, someone from the Wizengamot, probably Griselda Marchbank, is going to be an interim Minister. Then Amelia Bones will be chosen as the new Minister of magic. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A spring or just a water basin. The water contained has magical property (s) of course 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Only your first 5 predictions will be evaluated and included in your score. 1. On Halloween, something that's going to start whatever the story point of HBP is, is going to happen. 2. We will discover the secret(s) contained in Forbidden Forest, that warrant its name. Harry will again be saved by the Ford Anglia. Oh, and of course Aragog and his brood are going to make an appearance (sigh, I hate spiders!) 3. We will find out more about the Vanishing Cabinet. This cabinet has been around since the Founder's time, it belonged to Godric Gryffindor. It is going to play a role in defeating Voldemort. 4. Harry is not going to Hogwarts on Hogwarts Express, rather, he'll be taking an underground tunnel there. 5. There will be an attack in Hogsmeade, Death Eater will try to get into Hogwarts from the Honeydukes tunnel. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 21:12:15 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:12:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super News Flash! Bloomsbury releases text of Back cover! In-Reply-To: <002a01c58876$393043b0$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <002a01c58876$393043b0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132777 Having had nothing to do at work today.... SPOILER Back cover text to follow SPOILER "It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-to-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't quite believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine... J.K. Rowling charts Harry Potter's latest adventures in his sixth year at Hogwarts with consummate skill and in breathtaking fashion." That's all it said. ^_^ (All spelling errors are, of course, mine.) ~Ali On 7/14/05, Sherry Gomes wrote: > Go to > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/ > > click on News, then click on Back Cover Copy Released > > There is also a link on mugglenet. > > Enjoy! > > > Sherry now: > When I went to the site, and went to the link for the back cover, I came to > a flash site, which I cannot navigate with my screen reading software. The > text link just took me to a bio of JKR. Can anyone show great mercy and > email me a text version of what the back cover says, or point me to a link > where I can find a text version? > > Thanks! > > Dying of curiosity, > Sherry > sherriola at earthlink.net > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 14 21:15:12 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:15:12 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132778 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lucius Malfoy 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Dean Thomas 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She is related to Voldemort on the muggle side. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The real mad Eye Moody 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is a here-to-fore unknown magical object (not a pensieve) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 *Snapes mistreatment of Gryffinfors will turn out to be part of his role as spy for the order (though helped along by the natural chip on his shoulder). *Neville's forgetfulness is related to his parents condition. *Dumbledore's death (whether in book 6 or 7) will be phoenix-like. *Petunia can do magic. *Snape's boggart is his father. houyhnhnm From momy424 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 20:28:08 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:28:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione the animagus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132779 > Toni now... > > Hasn't JKR basically told us that Crookshanks is half Kneazel? I > can't quote it (sorry!) because I can't remember where I read it. I > suspect he was probably the product of Mrs. Figg successfully mating > cats and Kneazels. > > I completely agree about the high probablility of Hermione becoming > an animagus Toni, you are right, on her site JKR does say in the RUMORS section that No Crookshanks is not an animagus but that he is park kneasel which is how he can tell when people are not trustworthy. And I do agree that Hermione has something in store, being "the cleverest witch of her age" I cannot imagine that she cannot learn the steps to become one, I mena if Pettigrew could do it and keep himself hidden so long one has to believe for Hermione it has to be able Momy424 From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 21:54:04 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:54:04 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" > wrote: Amiable Dorsai: > > > > Oh dear... > > > > So what *do* you think he keeps in his... box? Karen: > I was going to keep out of this one, as it's definately OT (will the > elves give us some leyway as we are 'demob happy'?) but that last > sentance has got me howling and tears pouring down my face. All I'll > say to the poor Americans and others reading this, is that all this > comment has done is ahem, narrow down the target area of the contents > of his drawers!! > > Cricket anyone? Geoff: Of course it's not OT...... What Filch keeps in his drawers is very important to the development of the plot in POA. I think that bowls your middle stump.... :-)) The rapid spread of PHSS is becoming a matter of great concern to the WHO. They are expecting a mutated version of this syndrome to surface after 16th July. Symptoms include the wailing and gnashing of teeth of all those who got their predictions wrong. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 14:18:11 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:18:11 -0000 Subject: Super News Flash! Bloomsbury releases text of Back cover! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > Go to > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/ > > click on News, then click on Back Cover Copy Released > > There is also a link on mugglenet. > > Enjoy! S P O I L E R S P A C E Wow! That is brilliant. I was really scared ot was going to be too spoilery but is wasn't. Still intrigued! M O R E S P A C E What I'm really wondering is whether or not this text refers to the opening chapter (that's been 13 years in the brewing) or the second chapter... I'm sure it can't be part of this mysterious first chapter as it was originally the first chapter of book one - this wouldn't make sense in this context. I wonder if Dumbledore coming so he can take Harry on a little walk to a dilapidated cottage in a creepy forest... But why on earth would he want to do that? Only a day and a bit to go! JLV xx From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:00:07 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:00:07 -0000 Subject: Molly: Good Mom or Bad Mom? (was Re: OOTP observations: Molly...) In-Reply-To: <1ab.3b77af22.3007e7bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132782 > >>Kaylee Tonks-Lupin: > > But I wouldn't say Molly's not a "good" mother. She may not be > the "best", just like mine isn't the "best", but, after all, she > DID raise seven children, and, per JKR, homeschool them all > before Hogwarts. She must be good for *something*. . > Just my two Knuts. Betsy Hp: I have Molly issues, too. I don't think she's evil, and I don't think she's abusive, but she manages to push my buttons. While she's got a lot of "good mom" traits (family oriented, knitting, cooking, good with hugs) she's got a slew of "bad mom" traits as well (shrill, judgemental, divisive, small-minded). It makes me wonder how exactly JKR views her, herself. Because the Weasley family home doesn't strike me as a particularly happy one. Arthur is practically non-existent in his own house (and painted as a hopeless idiot whenever he *does* come home from the office or his work-shed). The two oldest boys (Charlie and Bill) got jobs as far away from home as possible. Percy (Molly's "good boy") hasn't moved away, but he's definitely left the family. The twins are two drinks away from being the worst sort of bullies (they've already landed one prank victim in the hospital). Ron has serious self-esteem issues. Ginny is a sneak. When you compare Molly with other literary moms, she tends to land (IMO, anyway) in the "bad mom" pile. She's more the bad mom from "Pride and Prejudice", for example, than the good mom from "Little Women". So it seems like JKR is suggesting that Molly isn't all that great. But then you get a scene like her hugging Harry at the end of GoF that suggests that, no Molly is supposed to be seen as a good mother. So I'm confused on how I should be reading Molly. Regardless of how JKR wants me to see Molly, I know that for me she's a walking guarantee *against* OBHWF (One Big Happy Weasley Family). Even if the books do end with Ron/Hermione and Ginny/Harry sailing off into the sunset, a future of bliss will *not* occur. Not with Molly as a mother-in-law. Hermione will *never* do anything right where Molly is concerned, especially when it comes to the grandkids, and Ron will always fail to measure up. (Well, the boy did go out and marry a *muggleborn* for goodness sake, not that Molly is judging the girl, but really muggles do have the strangest ideas.) Poor Ginny will be haunted day and night by Molly just popping by to drop off some fresh baked goodies, or share the latest pattern from Witches Weekly, or to help her with the spring cleaning Molly just *knows* Ginny was about to start. When the major screaming match occurs (and you know it will) Harry will be appealed to by both witches and he'll probably end up hanging out in the shed with Arthur. Just my opinion, of course. Betsy Hp From momy424 at aol.com Thu Jul 14 19:18:40 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:18:40 -0400 Subject: SPOILER Alert - From USA Today Article Message-ID: <8C756BFF9F0C907-C50-1D092@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132783 S P O I L E R A L E R T S P O I L E R A L E R T S P O I L E R A L E R T Ok this is from an article I saw online at USA Today from Indiannapolis, IN (USA) where 2 men have bought the book early (Monday). Below is the information from the article. It does not give away much but does make me wish my local store was as sloppy as I believe I am starting to salivate to read this book. *But Wednesday afternoon, Meyer was getting ready to delve into chapter 18, titled "Birthday Surprises." *He said he likes the fast pace of the latest Potter volume. *"A lot of what I'm reading, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to believe," Meyer said. "What J.K. Rowling is *telling you is pretty shocking considering the last five books Momy424 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From henning2 at terra.com.br Thu Jul 14 22:01:56 2005 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:01:56 -0000 Subject: HPB Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132784 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Seamus Finnigan. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She is related to Lord Voldemort. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Albus Dumbledore. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Susan Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Harry will get ten OWLs. Open predictions: 1) There will be a Deathday Party in HBP. 2) We will find Aunt Petunia is an untrained witch. 3) Vitor Krum will go to Hogwarts again and will fight against Ron for Hermione's heart. 4) The strange connection between Filch and Miss Norrris will be explained in HPB, and it will have an important role in the plot of the book. 5) We will be presented to a new metamorphomagus (problably a Death Eater) with an important role in the story. henning2 From personal.venus at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 22:16:01 2005 From: personal.venus at gmail.com (Personal Venus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:16:01 -0400 Subject: HBP Predictions In-Reply-To: <1121282329.1721.51950.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132785 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley (Nobody likes Percy). 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) There was a prophecy about her too, just as there is for her son. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? McClagan (or whatever the name of that guy is). 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione... or I'll tear my heart from my chest cavity. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A Voldemort collaborator. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve (or a bowl of radiactive soup) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Potions, Transfiguration, DADA, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms, Astronomy Predictions (0-10 points each): 1: Harry, Hermione and Ron will start to train for the war. 2: Neville and Harry will discuss the prophecy. 3: Ron will warm up to Luna. 4: Hermione will learn to apparate and use the ability for something dangerous. 5: Hermione and the elves will reach an understanding about S.P.E.W. -Anasazi From jmkearns at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 22:25:19 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:25:19 -0000 Subject: Twins or individuals? (was Re: Molly's worst moment) In-Reply-To: <20050714205345.67030.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132786 It's funny, I was just talking with my wife last night about how one of my favorite aspects of the books is Rowling's writing distinctions between Fred and George, despite the fact that they so often move as a duo. There is an excellent, though brief (and pre- OotP), discussion of George's angle here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-george.html The distinctions are subtle, but if you look for them, they are there. There are actually dozens of times in the books that one twin is mentioned without the other, and they nearly always depict the same characteristics for the two. As people have mentioned, I too see Fred as the slightly reckless, more money-driven twin - he's always the one, for example, that Ron brings up when he mentions the twins picking on him (Fred turned his toy into a spider, Fred gave him the dud spell, Fred told Ron he'd have to wrestle a troll in the sorting - just in a couple of chapters of PS!). George, meanwhile, is more thoughtful and people-driven. A few examples from Scholastic OotP: Fred: "Time is Galleons," 68 George: "Size is no guarantee of power. Look at Ginny." 100 George: "All thanks to you, mate" (when they discuss the joke shop with Harry), 105 Fred: "I love hearing Mum shouting at someone else," 107 Fred: "No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect," 161 (as first-years are waking up from testing fainting fancies) George: "Feel all right?" Fred: "Excellent." 254 (as Harry catches Fred and George hexing Zacharias Smith during DA) George: "Sorry, Harry, Couldn't resist..." 394 Fred: "Easy for you to say, stuck here! I don't see you risking your neck!" 477 Fred fell back into his chair with his hands over his face. George and Ginny got up, walked swiftly over to their mother, and hugged her. 479 George: "If Zacharias Smith beats us I might have to kill myself." Fred: "Kill him, more like." 574 Also, compare these two passages: "It's not my fault I didn't," said Fred, with a very ugly look on his face. 417 "I think we're well shut of him," said George with an *uncharacteristically* ugly look on his face. 70 (emphasis mine) Of course I chose these specifically for my purpose and counterexamples could be found if they were taken equally out of context; but I chose these to illustrate my overall impression of them. It will be interesting to see whether Rowling differentiates their characters in HBP, not to mention how much they play into the story in the first place. It's one of the things I'm most looking forward to. John K From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 22:37:12 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:37:12 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132787 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" > wrote: > > I was going to keep out of this one, as it's definately OT > > > > Cricket anyone? > > Geoff: > Of course it's not OT...... > > What Filch keeps in his drawers is very important to the development of the plot in POA. > > I think that bowls your middle stump.... > Karen again: Definitely a yorker. Perfect line and length. No not the contents of Filch's drawers! From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:46:07 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:46:07 -0000 Subject: SPOILER Alert - From USA Today Article In-Reply-To: <8C756BFF9F0C907-C50-1D092@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132789 S P O I L E R A L E R T S P O I L E R A L E R T S P O I L E R A L E R T " *But Wednesday afternoon, Meyer was getting ready to delve into chapter 18, titled "Birthday Surprises." " Del comments: Chapter EIGHTEEN is called "BIRTHDAY surprises"???? Is that supposed to mean that it takes SEVENTEEN chapters to cover the month of July???? Boy, if that's true, then A LOT must be happening during that month, and whatever pleasant circumstance is supposed to take Harry away from the Dursleys' must be something BIG indeed... Del From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:52:42 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714225242.88496.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132790 >> Phoenixgod: >> >>She was right to forget about the Twins when she was happy that >>Ron had become a prefect? > Alla: > > No, my number one choice would be her forgetting about twins. > > I mean everything else I could explain by her understanding of > love, jealousy of Sirius, etc. I cannot justify , but at least I > can explain those moments. > > Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find > close to unforgivable. You think she forgot about them? Au contraire: she remembered them only too well. I must admit I found Molly's "that's everyone in the family!" comment when Ron got his badge to be....weird. Fred and George were standing right there, for flip's sakes; she must have seen them. So what gives with the comment? Then I realized that in her excitement over Ron's big moment, she let slip the fact that she has simply written the twins off as ever being a credit to the family. She has no expectation that they will ever win any acolades that she respects, and she has given up on them. Had one of them opened their letter and a prefect's badge fallen out, she'd have accused them of creating it themselves to play some kind of prank with. The woman is really amazing. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 23:04:09 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:04:09 -0000 Subject: Spoiler - Brazilian back cover of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > WOW. So, any speculation on why Dumbledore is visiting Harry during > the summer?? What is it he needs to tell him????????????? Angie here: My first observation is this an interesting juxtaposition to the beginning of OOP (and really, most of OOP) where DD kept his distance. If I remember correctly, DD kept his distance so that LV wouldn't be tempted to possess/use Harry. Well, that's out the window now. DD came to rescue Harry, so LV obviously knows how close they are. Moreoever, LV knows that even if he possesses Harry, DD won't kill him (Harry) in an attempt to kill LV. The second thing is, now that keeping his distance didn't work, I wonder if DD feels Harry instead needs his special protection. Maybe the Dursleys' place isn't the safe haven it once was, now that LV has taken Harry's blood. Maybe DD suspects that might enable LV to enter Privet Drive (although why it would take him this long to suspect that is beyond my explantion). I've always wanted DD to whisk Harry away to his estate (I'm just assuming he has an estate; no canon to support this). If Harry doesn't need DD's protection, can't imagine what is so urgent, but I sure wish it had something to do with Sirius or Harry's parents. JKR said something like Harry would be taken away for a happy reason. I just realized that everything I wrote doesn't really sound happy. Oh, well, I guess we'll know in a matter of hours (seconds, really if you think about it!) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 23:15:36 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER Alert - From USA Today Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714231536.93252.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132792 --- delwynmarch wrote: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > A > > L > > E > > R > > T > > > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > A > > L > > E > > R > > T > > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > > A > > L > > E > > R > > T > " *But Wednesday afternoon, Meyer was getting ready > to delve into > chapter 18, titled "Birthday Surprises." " > > Del comments: > Chapter EIGHTEEN is called "BIRTHDAY surprises"???? > Is that supposed > to mean that it takes SEVENTEEN chapters to cover > the month of > July???? Boy, if that's true, then A LOT must be > happening during that > month, and whatever pleasant circumstance is > supposed to take Harry > away from the Dursleys' must be something BIG > indeed... > > Del Perhaps it's someone else's Birthday: Sirius? Dumbledore? who know. Tomorrow we'll know for sure Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 14 23:25:17 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:25:17 -0000 Subject: SPOILER Alert - From USA Today Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > A > L > E > R > T > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > A > L > E > R > T > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > A > L > E > R > T > > " *But Wednesday afternoon, Meyer was getting ready to delve into > chapter 18, titled "Birthday Surprises." " > > Del comments: > Chapter EIGHTEEN is called "BIRTHDAY surprises"???? Is that supposed > to mean that it takes SEVENTEEN chapters to cover the month of > July???? Boy, if that's true, then A LOT must be happening during that > month, and whatever pleasant circumstance is supposed to take Harry > away from the Dursleys' must be something BIG indeed... It's high time we saw someone else's birthday for a change, I should think... Chapter 18 should be beyond the halfway point - that's probably Ron's birthday (in March I think). Salit From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 00:02:55 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:02:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132795 Potioncat: Well, as I understand it, thoughts are put into the Pensieve, reviewed, and then returned to the head. DD says he was called away in the midst of reviewing his thoughts. Snape always fills the Pensieve at the last minute and returns the thoughts to his head before Harry is out of the door. Both times that Harry went into the Pensieve, the owner had been suddenly called away. So I don't think thoughts are stored in the Pensieve. Of course, if someone was called away and never returned, I guess someone else could take them on. But along that line..."Snape's Worst Memory" still seems to me to be James' memory. I just can't figure out what it would be doing in Snape's head or why Snape would keep James' memory alive. vmonte responds: You know, you might be right. There is a moment at the begining of Snape's Worst Memory where Harry starts looking for Snape during the exam and says to himself: [where's Snape]"...after all this is Snape's memory." This comment bothers me because JKR makes a point to tell us that Harry understands this memory as being Snape's (why mention this since we the readers already understand this as being Snape's memory. We see (read) Snape loading the penseive with his memory). It almost makes me feel that JKR is once again showing how Harry is jumping to the wrong conclusion. Remember PoA when Harry assumed that the person he saw across the lake was his father? Will the voice Harry believes to be James at GH also turn out to be someone else? And remember that every penseive scene mentioned in the books had deceptive elements. Hagrid did not let out the monster in the Chamber. Tom Riddle was not a good kid. And Crouch Jr. was not an innocent victim of his father (DD's memories of the DE trials). There is more to Snape's Worst Memory than we have been shown. Vivian From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 00:42:26 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:42:26 -0700 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest USA Today Article, Off Limit Spoiler Message-ID: <410-22005751504226420@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132796 Greetings yet again, FYI, any information that can be taken from the USA TODAY article is OFF LIMITS to the prediction contest. And Just a reminder, if you haven't sent in your predictions by midnight (eastern time) you will NOT be eligible for the contest. Also please remember that any information that has been released by JKR, publishers, or anyone known to have inside info on HBP will be considered OFF LIMIT, and will be of no value. And your prediction will not count if you do not send a copy of your prediction to tigerpatronus at yahoo.com ! Thanks, Chancie~Minion in Charge of Spoilers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 00:54:11 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:54:11 -0000 Subject: Molly: Good Mom or Bad Mom? (was Re: OOTP observations: Molly...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132797 > > Betsy Hp: > > When you compare Molly with other literary moms, she tends to land > (IMO, anyway) in the "bad mom" pile. She's more the bad mom > from "Pride and Prejudice", for example, than the good mom > from "Little Women". > > Regardless of how JKR wants me to see Molly, I know that for me > she's a walking guarantee *against* OBHWF (One Big Happy Weasley > Family). Even if the books do end with Ron/Hermione and Ginny/Harry > sailing off into the sunset, a future of bliss will *not* occur. > Not with Molly as a mother-in-law. > > Hermione will *never* do anything right where Molly is concerned, > > Poor Ginny will be haunted day and night by Molly just popping by to > drop off some fresh baked goodies, or share the latest pattern from > Witches Weekly, or to help her with the spring cleaning Molly just > *knows* Ginny was about to start. When the major screaming match > occurs (and you know it will) Harry will be appealed to by both > witches and he'll probably end up hanging out in the shed with > Arthur. > > Just my opinion, of course. > > Betsy Hp All of these comments just prove to me that JKR created "real" characters. Molly is not perfect... MOST mothers aren't (although mine will try to tell you differently). MOST mothers are all of the things that you just described in some form or fashion... I'm sure everyone has had at least one of the experiences that you have listed above with their mothers! Molly loves her family and wants the best for them. However, she can be overbearing and a bit out of bounds. BUT regardless of their faults, we manage to love our mothers just the same.... and when we grow up and have children of our own we even begin to understand that they are people with hopes and fears also, when we look at our children we begin to have an inkling of what it is that our parents have felt for us. In this way Molly is very real to me, she is not some cookie cutter ideal of what a mother SHOULD be. We try to do the best we can with what we have and I think that is what Molly does. She is the real deal. Just another opinion, Laila From judisimecek at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 20:40:11 2005 From: judisimecek at yahoo.com (iadoreharry) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:40:11 -0000 Subject: OOTP observations - Molly/Molly's worst moment in the books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132798 > Alla wrote: > > Her forgetting about the fact she has two more sons, I find > > close to unforgivable. > -allthingshp: > It probably means nothing, but I don't like how when she is > imagining everyone dead during the boggart scene she doesn't > picture Ginny... I don't have OOTP with me so I cant't quote, but I thought I also remembered when Ron is made prefect and Molly finds out she says something like that's the whole family, and Fred and George basically say what about us. If I remember correctly Ginny isn't mentioned at all here either. J From shgupta83 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:09:19 2005 From: shgupta83 at yahoo.com (Shobhit Gupta) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050714220919.30178.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132799 S P O I L E R * A L E R T ! ! > Angie again (probably breaking rules replying to my own post): > I just noticed the knife in the tree above Harry's head and > what looks to be a serpent shape on the door of the cottage. I was looking through OOTP and the title page illustration of the book shows 12 Grimmauld. On the door is a serpent looking design similar to the one on the back cover on HBP. Maybe there is a connection there. "shgupta83" From henning2 at terra.com.br Thu Jul 14 22:50:32 2005 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:50:32 -0000 Subject: Errata (prediction contest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132800 Sorry, I made a mistake. My answer to question 6 - "Who will be the new Minister of Magic?" - is *Amelia* Bones and *not* Susan Bones ( Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132801 > Betsy Hp: > I have Molly issues, too. I don't think she's evil, and I don't > think she's abusive, but she manages to push my buttons. While > she's got a lot of "good mom" traits (family oriented, knitting, > cooking, good with hugs) she's got a slew of "bad mom" traits as > well (shrill, judgemental, divisive, small-minded). It makes me > wonder how exactly JKR views her, herself. I wonder that too. Honestly, I think that I'm being too hard on her sometimes (except about Sirius. Burn for that!) but Molly is everything I hate about mothers I've had to with through teaching. She sets my teeth on edge like few other characters. I suppose that makes her *real* but for what is supposed to be Harry's surrogate mother figure she is remarkably unlikeable. At least to me. You would think that she would have been portrayed a little differently if she was supposed to be the counter to all of the worse parents in the books--parents like the Malfoy's or Dursley's. > Because the Weasley family home doesn't strike me as a particularly > happy one. Arthur is practically non-existent in his own house (and > painted as a hopeless idiot whenever he *does* come home from the > office or his work-shed). Well, with all the respect he gets from Molly is it any wonder why. > Regardless of how JKR wants me to see Molly, I know that for me > she's a walking guarantee *against* OBHWF (One Big Happy Weasley > Family). Even if the books do end with Ron/Hermione and Ginny/Harry > sailing off into the sunset, a future of bliss will *not* occur. > Not with Molly as a mother-in-law. Heehee. I would imagine that Harry and Ginny (shudder) would get the worst of that because Ginny is her sweet only daughter. I've seen it before. Not that I want Harry and Ginny to get together, 'cause remember Ginny is the devil :) > Betsy Hp Betsy, we agree on something! Maybe its a sign of things to come. Alla and I agreed on almost everything on the last book. Maybe HBP is going to be the book of the phoenixporridge! phoenixgod2000, who is starting to get jittery because of impending HPness. From lisap1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:55:44 2005 From: lisap1999 at yahoo.com (lisap1999) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:55:44 -0000 Subject: HP contest, my answers and predictions In-Reply-To: <20050714175448.80142.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132802 I haven't had early access to the books, but before I do get them I wanted to throw in my hat with some random predictions.... 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid will die...badly. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? A new character and not the Old Lion Guy 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She's related to Voldemort through the muggle side 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Old Lion Guy 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Lily and Petunia's muggle family died because of Voldemort. 2. Grawp will fall in love with Hermione. 3. We will learn much more about the Longbottoms. 4. Aberforth Dumbledore is alive and around and still in the order of the phoenix, and we get to meet him in book 6 5. We will find out Snape's secret! (Not the vampire thing...but why Dumbledore trusts him...and it will occur through the pensieve) 6. This DADA teacher will be a good teacher but he will be slightly put off by Harry's abilities. Lisa....who's never actually posted but I have been reading off and on for a while. From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 22:58:55 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:58:55 -0000 Subject: Twins or individuals (with notes on Percy) In-Reply-To: <20050714205222.40499.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132803 jlv230: > > I worry that Fred'n'George are one character with two > > bodies... do you think JKR will finally distinguish one > > from the other? My impression of the twins has always been that they are extremely close - as some twins are - and have similar personalities and interests. But the subtle differences between them are important as well - I just hope neither twin dies before that theme is explored! J.K. Rowling, at any rate, knows the difference - she describes them as "identical to the last freckle," but the semi- omniscient narrator can distinguish their voices when they're muffled behind layers of brick and soot in the chimney at Privet Drive. (Most identical twins have very similar voices, of course.) Mira: > George seems more sensitive, Fred more daring, but this is a > gross simplification. I wouldn't call that a gross simplification so much as an accurate overview. ;) It's George who helps Harry with his trunks at the beginning of _Philosopher's Stone_, George who's the first to cheer Harry up and call Malfoy on his dementor hypocrisy in _Prisoner of Azkaban_, George who speaks to Harry when the twins turn the map over to him, George who's able to thank Harry coherently for the triwizard winnings, George who restrains the pursuit of Ludo Bagman in "Goblet of Fire." Mira: > Let's say that I can see Fred as able to go to(ward) the dark > side easier than George. I don't see Fred as becoming evil, but he is a classically reckless adolescent with a dynamic and spontaneous personality and lots of energy. Combine that with the "typical" adolescent, and stereotypical adolescent-boy, egotism (unattractive, but a necessary part of human development), non-consideration of others, and disinterest in consequences, and you've got something rather volatile. Fred seems to be the mastermind behind the ton-tongue toffee (which was awful of them, although I never feel anywhere near as sorry for Dudley as I probably should). He's usually the one described as leading the revelry, for good or ill - most of the time we get something like "Fred was sitting with a group of third-years, making mischief," often "Fred and George," but very rarely George alone and never "George and Fred." jlv230: > > Fred takes Angelina to the Yule Ball, but I can't find > > mention of George's date (but I'm probably being thick!) He takes Pigwidgeon, as Fred tells Harry. (Yes, I know he's being facetious here.) It's never mentioned - maybe only Fred can muster the nerve to ask someone? With all those distinctions in mind, I would offer another one that doesn't seem to garner many remarks at all. This one relates to the rivalry between Percy and the twins. A morbidly focused combing over of the texts suggests that is no such thing, or at least not nearly to the degree that it's depicted in fandom. The rivalry, at it core, is between Percy and George. Granted, Fred isn't wildly enthusiastic about Percy, and he's happy to join in teasing him. But about 90% of the really genuinely hostile remarks about Percy (as opposed to good-natured teasing) come from George. "[The cars] are for you, Perce. They've all got a little flag on the bonnet, with 'HB' on it," is the first response to Percy's question in _Prisoner of Azkaban_ - only after George has spoken does Fred add "for 'Humongous Bighead.'" The text itself - the way Rowling actually words things - also suggests that this is an area of pranking where George sometimes takes the lead, as with the dragon dung and "We tried to shut him in a pyramid, but Mum spotted us." In _Order of the Phoenix_, Fred speaks gravely (for once!) and tells Harry not to mention Percy around Mr and Mrs Weasley. It's George who retorts, "We're well shot of him," with an "uncharacteristically ugly expression on his face." When Percy returns Mrs Weasley's gift, it's George who tries to cheer her up by reminding her that "Percy's an enormous pile of rat droppings." Bear in mind that George is the sensitive one, the thoughtful one, the closest thing to a conscience Fred (or the unit of The Twins) sometimes seems to have. At any rate, we may know in about 24 hours whether all of this means anything. Until then, fodder for obsession. -hekatesheadband (who has had her eye on Percy from the outset - and not in the same sense as having one's eye on, say, Brad Pitt) From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 00:00:12 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:00:12 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132804 ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former witch. I guess she hated her sister because at Hogwarts, she probably had all the attention Petunia did not get. And maybe after graduation, Petunia swore never to speak about the magic world since it brought so many sad memories. And also, maybe after what happened to Lily, Dumbledore blackmailed Petunia to take care of Harry, or else he would speak out about her true self! Seeing that Dumbledore needed Petunia to take care of Harry because she is a witch in the `normal' world that can use magic and defend Harry if anything should happen inside the house, which I doubt because of the family's `special' protection. I hope I can get replies on this, am I the only one who thinks this might be true? Sincerely, Dilia Pacheco From Kadoo96801 at aol.com Fri Jul 15 01:59:23 2005 From: Kadoo96801 at aol.com (Kadoo96801 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:59:23 EDT Subject: REVISED HBP Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132805 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley, after having to choose between the corrupt ministry and his family, the Death Eaters will eliminate him for his stupidity. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The new Minister of Magic is the half-blood prince....because it will cause uproar in the purist wizard community to have their head of state as a non-pureblood (those opposing wizards will become death eaters) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) It must be something with her eyes. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Old Lion Guy...he is a retired member of the Order, possibly was an auror, and of course is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor. He will teach Harry very powerful and advanced magic in order to prepare him for the final fight against Voldemort (His character is almost like the combination of Mad-Eye, Dumbledore, and Lupin). 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna, if anyone. she is the only person at Hogwarts that Harry can truly relate with. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? The Half-Blood Prince. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. I'm hoping that it belongs to Tom Riddle, but it is most likely the community Hogwarts one that we've seen with Dumbledore and Snape before 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of COurse! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No--he'll be focusing on Herbology 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Care of Magical Creatures, Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts--7 Predictions: 1. Ron will realize that he is in love with Hermione. 2. Professor Sinistra will be revelaed to be evil. (her name sounds like "sinister"...perhaps she is the Voldemort's spy at Hogwarts) 3. Petunia, though neither a Squib nor a Wizard, will perform magic because of an incredible circumstance. 4. NEville will learn about the prophecy. 5. Pettigrew will be at the point of killing Harry, but cannot because of the debt he owes to him 6. Snape will reveal that he is a vampire. 7. We will find out that Harry is a direct descendant of Gryffindor, and Voldemort of Slytherin, and that Harry and Voldemort are connected by the age-old feud of their ancestors. 8. Crookshanks will reveal to Hermione that he has some kind of special cat/kneazle magic. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gretchnky at aol.com Fri Jul 15 00:38:25 2005 From: gretchnky at aol.com (gretchnky at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:38:25 EDT Subject: revised prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132806 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Neville 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Viktor Krum 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her lineage links her to the Riddle family. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Minerva McGonagall 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An ancient time turner...sundial style? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1.Neville can and will perform great feats of magic with the use of his own new wand which will lead to the downfall of Bellatrix and Nevills own death. After his death, his Gran will once again compare his wizarding skills to that of his father. 2.Luna has the natural eye of a true seer though no one will choose to believe her until its too late to use her gift. 3.When Harry comes eye to eye with Voldemort yet again, it will be on Harry's terms. Harry will call Voldemort "Tom" --as Dumbledore does--which will cause the Dark Lord to fear Harry for the first time. 4.The twins will shift from making joke products to making weaponry that will aide the Order. 5.Percy's blind ambition will be the reason Voldemort gains the upper hand. Upon realizing what he has done, he will come back to his family and the Order, begging forgiveness. At this time he will be welcomed back into the fold, but never completely trusted, least of all by Fred and George. "GretchnKY" From tifflblack at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 00:48:42 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:48:42 -0700 Subject: Super News Flash! Bloomsbury releases text of Back cover! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132807 Inkling108 wrote: > Go to > > http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/ > > click on News, then click on Back Cover Copy Released Tiffany: I noticed that the text of the back cover is not accessible to users of screen readers, so if anybody needs the text of the back cover, please write me offlist at tifflblack at earthlink.net and when my sister gets home I'll have it ready to send to you. Having said that, I had mom read it to me, and I'm intrigued. Now I really can't wait for midnight tomorrow. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 01:59:30 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:59:30 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "diliapacheco" wrote: > ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! > > > I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former witch. I guess > she hated her sister because at Hogwarts, she probably had all the > attention Petunia did not get. And maybe after graduation, Petunia > swore never to speak about the magic world since it brought so many > sad memories. And also, maybe after what happened to Lily, > Dumbledore blackmailed Petunia to take care of Harry, or else he > would speak out about her true self! Seeing that Dumbledore needed > Petunia to take care of Harry because she is a witch in the `normal' > world that can use magic and defend Harry if anything should happen > inside the house, which I doubt because of the family's `special' > protection. > > I hope I can get replies on this, am I the only one who thinks this > might be true? > > Sincerely, > > Dilia Pacheco Yes, I think that Petunia is the witch that will gain powers late in life. JKR once mentioned that there was a character that would gain powers late in life. It's got to be Petunia. Vivian From tifflblack at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 01:15:39 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:15:39 -0700 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost / Honeydukes tunnel In-Reply-To: <20050714132417.54852.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132809 Vinia: > 5. There will be an attack in Hogsmeade, Death Eater will try > to get into Hogwarts from the Honeydukes tunnel. Tiffany: Wow, that's creepy. I was just thinking abut that this morning, because Pettigrew does know about that secret tunnel, as he helped put it on the map. From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 02:04:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:04:10 -0000 Subject: What is Luna? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132810 Does anyone else get the impression that Luna might be part elf? What about the large protuberant eyes that never seem to blink? What about the radish earings and butterbeer cap necklace? She reminds me of Dobby. Vivian I just tried to get on mugglenet.com and I saw this message: I've just had the book ruined for me because of morons posting spoilers... And I've had enough... Don't know when we'll be back... Frankly I don't care that much anymore... lanifiel - CoS Administrator... From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 02:13:37 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:13:37 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132811 > Dilia wrote: > > I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former witch. > > Vivian: > Yes, I think that Petunia is the witch that will gain powers > late in life. JKR once mentioned that there was a character > that would gain powers late in life. It's got to be Petunia. You make an excellent point, Vivian; notwithstanding, what do you think about the possibilities of Dudley being the one who gains powers late in life? Seeing that he is a half blood wizard. Dilia Pacheco From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 02:46:55 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:46:55 -0000 Subject: HPB Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132812 S p o i l e r # # # A L E R T > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The old man walking towards the house on the back of the book of the deluxe edition. McClaggon? > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She knew Petunia was a witch and used her skills in charms to protect Harry in the event of her death. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Albus Dumbledore. > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley. > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy Weasley as Interim, new character, again, McClaggon? > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Godric Gryffindor's Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10 > Open predictions: > > 1) Dudley's experience with the dementors revealed to him that his mother is a witch. > > 2) All the mauraders are cursed and it will have something to do with Snape's revenge--he may have received help from Voldemort. > > 3) Draco's Detour involves a personal encounter with Voldemort. > 4) The gum wrappers that Neville's mother gives him will reveal something about his fate. > 5) Firenz dies in defending Hogwarts from Voldemort's takeover. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 02:52:58 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715025259.39344.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132813 --- diliapacheco wrote: > ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! > > > I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former > witch. I guess > she hated her sister because at Hogwarts, she > probably had all the > attention Petunia did not get. And maybe after > graduation, Petunia > swore never to speak about the magic world since it > brought so many > sad memories. And also, maybe after what happened to > Lily, > Dumbledore blackmailed Petunia to take care of > Harry, or else he > would speak out about her true self! Seeing that > Dumbledore needed > Petunia to take care of Harry because she is a witch > in the `normal' > world that can use magic and defend Harry if > anything should happen > inside the house, which I doubt because of the > family's `special' > protection. > > I hope I can get replies on this, am I the only one > who thinks this > might be true? > > Sincerely, > > Dilia Pacheco > Hey Dilia! This theory has been around for a while, JKR said on her website that a person may develop their "magicness" late in life, and lots of people (including myself) think it may be Petunia. If Petunia is older than Lily she may have refused to go to Hogwarts because she was afraid of what her parents may said, so she kept it a secret, then when Lily's invitation arrived, she felt horrible cause she had passed the opportunity. Or she could be an untrained witch, and you know if you don't use what you've got, you'll end up losing it: like when the astronauts return to the earth after being for a while at cero gravity, their muscles are too weak, they can't even stand, much less walk. I think the same could have happened with Petunia. Or she's a muggle up to her last hair, But she will become a witch, she'll nevr be able to get a wand or permission to do magic since she didn't go to magic school (somewhat like Hagrid). Anything is possible, we'll just have to wait a bit more. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tinglinger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 03:42:31 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:42:31 -0000 Subject: My predictions for HBP - Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132814 # The first chapter in HBP will return to events at Godric's Hollow the night Harry got his scar (from JKR's statments on waiting 13 years to write this chapter) # Voldemort, Harry, James and Lily were not the only ones at GH that night. # Snape tried to warn James about Sirius before LV arrived but was laughed at and left (from Snape's shouting at Harry that he was arrogant like his father in the Shrieking Shack). # The Droobles Gum Wrapper theory is valid - Sirius was careless with the parchment that contained the Potter's hiding place (read the post). # Pettigrew was never SK for the Potters - it was all made up by Sirius to cover up his mess (basis from Lupin reading Sirius' mind at the Shrieking Shack on the fly) # The MANXMOUSE theory is valid - Harry is not the innocent little baby we are led to believe (maybe not the golem or pinocchio in the original post but almost definitely fed the Elixir of Life). # Riddle played a key role in the defeat of Grinderwald in 1945 similar to what Harry will play in the defeat of Voldemort in 1997 (too many coincidences with dates - check the lexicon). # The fact that McGonagall was at Privet Drive is more significant than we have been led to believe (she, james and DD are all transfiguration experts. I always felt that she had a much larger role than we were told). # The fact that Harry's hair is always the same and can't be cut or changed is VERY significant (mentioned constantly plus the addition of Tonks makes me notice it even more). # Switching spells will play a major role in the next two books (NOthing mentioned specifically but in the periphery of the story. Kind of like the Lovegoods clue in GOF). # Fudge's role in the events that follow GH will be shown to be very significant in HBP (Seems to be everywhere, doesn't he? At Sirius' capture, gives him a paper where he sees scabbers in egypt....) # Harry's parents got rich as a result of using the sorcerer's stone to get their gold with the help of Dumbledore and Flamel (James' father may have been rich before, but not like this!) # James and Lily Potter were apprentices of the alchemy partnership of Flamel and Dumbledore (Hagrid statements in SS when first telling Harry about his real parents). # In an attempt to defeat Voldemort, the Potters allowed DD and Flamel to make Harry immortal by using the Sorcerer's Stome (can you think of a better reason why Harry wasn't killed?) # Ludo Bagman will sell out to Voldemort (I'll bet on that one!). # Rita Skeeter will betray Hermione to Voldemort (this is almost a guarantee. VOldemort won't let her get away with the quibbler interview and she will plead for her life). # Lucius Malfoy is not the Pure Blood Wizard he tells everyone he is (lots of subtle hints in the books). # Draco Malfoy is the Half Blood Prince (would make his character interesting and follows from previous statement). # Lupin is not a DE but was capable of killing Sirius and did so to pay back Sirius for screwing up his life (especially when he puts Harry in danger). # Hagrid as Keeper of the Keys will play a much more important role at Hogwarts than we've been told so far. # Professor Flitwick wil turn into a dueling Yoda before the end of the series (his expertise in dueling was mentioned in one of the books). # There is a magic-related reason why squibs have cats as companions. # Filch will betray the secrets of Hogwarts to the dark side # The Marauders Map will fall into the wrong hands and jeopardize Hogwarts security # The Weasley Joke Shop in Diagon Alley will play a prominant role in HBP # Knockturn Alley will play a prominant role in HBP - a chapter or so.... # An explanation as to the symbolism of Ginny Weasley and eggs will be established (ie OOP in library with Harry, the Bird/Egg at the MOM) # Arthur Weasly will use his muggle protecting skills to protect Hermione's parents fron death eaters -- voldemort will get at Harmione through her parents. Hermione and her parents are in danger when Voldemort finds out that she was the motivating force behind Harry's story being told in the Quibbler. Lots and lots of reasons for this to happen # If Dumbledore does die in HBP, he will "live on" in his pensieve. # Hedwig is more than just an owl. # Petunia Dursley hides much more than what she has revealed. # The fact that Dean Thomas' boggart turned into a severed hand is VERY significant (POA CH 7, 138). HE will also be involved in forging a significant MoM document. # The Hand of Glory will play a key role in HBP. # Hermione's ability to produce heatless fires will play a key role in HBP. (similar to HOG above but not as evil. # A strong similarity berween the eyes of Lily and Sphynxes will be revealed. # Tonk's ability as a Metamorphmagus will be used to suprise us at least once during HBP (in fact a person who we think has died in HBP may be revealed to have been Tonks later on). # Amos Diggory will be the new Minister of Magic. # The Goblins will not join forces with Voldemort # Umbridge will not be a major part of HBP whether living or dead. # Durmstrang will emerge as the new school of choice for a significant number of Slytherins once the Second War gets going. # Charlie and his dragon taming friends from Romania will be significant allies of the Order once the Second War gets going. # The method Voldemort's snake used to get into the MOM to attack Arthur Weasley will be vital in HBP. # The Honeydukes cellar that Harry entered Hogsmeade via will be used to invade Hogwarts by the end of HBP. THis is the dark mark that RHG are looking at on the cover of HBP # We have not seen the last of the Omnioculars, and they will be used by Harry, Hermione, and Ron (if he hasn't lost his pair) in HBP. # When Harry returns to Grimauld Place, he will attempt to kill Kreacher to avenge Sirius (if Dumbledore hasn't already done that for him). # Dobby will end up living in Grimauld place with Harry during his time away from Hogwaerts # The piece of parchment Lupin was reading when Harry suprised him was Sirius' will # Harry inherits Grimauld Place from Sirius. # Sirius also stipulates in his will that Lupin will always have a home at Grimauld Place for as long as he chooses to stay there. # Ron's dirty nose and Percy's ink splattered nose will be "dark markers" and are JKR's sneaky way of telling us that at least one of them will be dead bythe end of HBP and both will be dead by the end of the series. # Hermione will always remain "toujours pure-ly good" and, though she may not always make the best choices, will always be on the side of the Order. # HBP will end with students and teachers supporting the Order barricaded in Dumbledore's Office Tower, forced to retreat there by Hogwarts invaders from below, and looking out one of the many Tower windows watching dragons ridden by Death Eaters and/or Voldemort controlled dementors threatening invasion from above. This is the cliffhanger ending of HBP -- even if not this dramatic, HOGWARTS HAS DEFINITELY BEEN COMPROMISED # Luna appears on Privet Drive riding a thestral to try to find Harry. # The story of Luna's mother's life and death will be significant in Book 6 # Luna's mother died trying to help Luna # Luna was bitten by a werewolf as a child # Specifically, Luna's mother died trying to find a cure for her daughter # Harry and Luna will become a lot closer in HBP # Luna's dottiness is explained by her not being able to handle the death of her mother and being placed under an "Imperius light" spell by her dad so she can cope. # Harry and Luna will be at the Ministry of Magic before the end of HBP # Luna will be in grave danger by the end of HBP - if any Hogwarts student dies in HBP it will be Luna. If she is not killed, she will be incapacitated by the same spell the Death Eaters used on Ron (This would really really suck if it happened, but I would not be shocked if it did.) In any event,if there is a H/L ship, it will not survive the end of Book 6. # The Homorphus Charm is legit # Luna was not on the train leaving Hogwarts at the end of OOP # Luna's dad will be killed and the Quibbler trashed because he was the first to publish Harry's interview. # Goyle Sr. was not at the Ministry of Magic and is available to Voldemort as of the start of HBP to kill Lovegood Sr. # Luna's hats will somehow be used to help her out of a perilous situration. # The fact that Luna tucks her wand behind her ear for safekeeping will be used in Book 6 to save Harry from harm. # Hermione's skill at potions will play a specific role in helping Luna before the end of Book 6 From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 15 04:13:06 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:13:06 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132815 aussie: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid needs a 12 foot grave after defending one too many people he is passionate about. But he may be a ghost in #7 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) HBP is not a WHO, but a WHAT ... like a law's title. (eg. saving the life of another wizard makes you entitled to the HBP law and he is indebted to you) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The EYES. Seems like those green eyes didn't run in the fam as far as Petunia. Dobby has green eyes though. Did Lilly accidently try Pollyjuice potion with House Elf essnce same way Hermoine got cat hairs. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A New Character. This is an African wizard who, instead of an owl, uses a colorful "fwooper"(see "Fantastic Beasts"). This wizard with the colorful bird gave a safe haven to Black at the start of GOF. If not Sirius's friend, then one of the wizards Charlie was trying to recruit in Romania ? who could be from anywhere, (could this be the Aussie I've been hoping for?) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? It would have to be a OOTP or DA member. I'll go with Susan Bones. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Susan Bones (well, from Harry's trial, it was Fudge, or Umbridge left . ) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Either Hagrid's soup or a pensieve I'll go with a Pensieve. Dumbledore is teaching Harry how to collect and store his own thoughts to view them objectively 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definately. Yes. How can JKR keep Harry / Snape / Draco separated for a whole book 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. Herbology and DADA, Yes, but he has no love nor interest in Potions - class or teacher. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? His patronus earned bonus points in DADA to Dux that subject. Potions gains bare minimum, Charms (his Lilly's fav) and Transfiguration to keep going for Auror goals. He also scraped through Astronomy and History of Magic. Care of Magical Creatures was best after DADA practical. Divination? Your guess is as good as mine. I'd give him an OWL there too. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Hagrid has a flying carpet. I can't see another way he could have arrived to pick up Harry at age 1 or 11. 2. The DE work out that the easiest defendable HQ would be Hogwarts, and brings the attack to the school grounds. Hogwarts is safe from Aurors apparating in and even safer from Muggles. 3. Crabb and Goyle will not get enough OWLs to continue studies at Hogwarts. Draco will find a new ally. 4. It is revealed what happened to make DD trust Snape so much. DD said in POA, "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt.... When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them". Likewise, Snape saved DD or DD's brother. 5. Trelawney will be the target of DE since the origin of the prophesey holds it's secret aussie From ophelia_de_la_nuit at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 03:09:03 2005 From: ophelia_de_la_nuit at hotmail.com (Kabuki) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:09:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius observations /Flying Car In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132816 > > Pippin: > > Not necessarily. It's a bit like the flying car incident in Book > Two. > > Sending an owl and waiting for instructions would have been wiser. > > It's not like they *had* to take the train --what about the Knight > > Bus? On the other hand, there obviously wasn't any time to lose > > when they went to the MoM. > > Finwitch: > > And as for the flying car -- have we not witnessed with Harry how > letters get intercepted enough to question whether he *really* should > have sent Hedwig? Because you see, if someone blocked his access to > the Platform, how is he to know that someone (like Dobby or Dursleys) > does not intercept Hedwig's delivery? The thought of sending the > letter did not occur to Harry, because (though Harry didn't realise > it to tell that to McGonagall) Harry didn't believe the letter would > ever reach Hogwarts, so it wouldn't have worked - it might just have > got Hedwig wounded or even killed, and then what? They're still in > platform, Harry grows more and more worried about Hedwig, probably > agonising enough to cause some accidental magic to happen... This got me thinking about Harry's response more and more. When I read CoS initially I didn't understand Harry's reluctance to wait for the return of Molly and Arthur (Ron suggested that, right? It's not my imagintion?) or just send an owl. There has been discussion on list about Harry's trust issues when it comes to adults, which could explan why he chose to solve the problem himself. Why didn't he send Hedwig? I think being raised in the Muggle world had a lot to do with it. He hasn't had the opportunity to send many owl letters, and Hedwig is more of a pet than a tool for him at that point. I doubt he trusted owl post -- i doubt he entirely trusts it now. That would also account for his floo-happy experiences in OotP. With floo he can see the person face-to-face instead of sending a letter and wondering about a response. Sorry, but the connection just occured to me. If I'm stepping on the toes of prior posters I apologize. deadly_nightshade From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 03:19:42 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:19:42 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: <20050715025259.39344.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132817 Juli: > Or she could be an untrained witch, and you know if > you don't use what you've got, you'll end up losing > it: like when the astronauts return to the earth after > being for a while at cero gravity, their muscles are > too weak, they can't even stand, much less walk. I > think the same could have happened with Petunia. Hey Juli! Yes, your right. But I don't think Petunia has lost her powers, she just denies it to her death. I dont believe you read what I wrote to Vivian, "what do you think about the possibilities of Dudley being the one who gains powers late in life? Seeing that he is a half blood wizard." That's the direction were I am leaning towards... what do you think? Dilia Pacheco From nancy at pro3.tv Fri Jul 15 03:41:07 2005 From: nancy at pro3.tv (sahmiamnc) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:41:07 -0000 Subject: Anagram evidence for Hagrid being HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132818 Don't know why I didn't do this sooner; "Half-Blood Prince" anagrammes to "Bold Francophile." A francophile being one who loves things French, non? And Hagrid certainly could be described as bold. We'll see in about 25 1/2 hours... sahmiamnc From logic_alley at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 05:38:11 2005 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:38:11 -0000 Subject: When does the board shut down? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132819 Which time zone and hour? Sorry if this isn't appropriate here. Logic Alley From paniaguamd at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 03:44:01 2005 From: paniaguamd at hotmail.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 03:44:01 -0000 Subject: HBP contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132820 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Theodore Nott 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She invented Droobles gum 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Severus Snape 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, but he might start to notice Ginny near the end. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. A use will finally become apparent for Hermione's study of ancient runes and arithomancy. 2. We will find out about another old prophecy, this one regarding the WEasleys. 3. Trevor will reveal himself to be an animagus. 4. Harry will revisit the COS by the end of Book 6. 5. Lucius Malfoy will be back to his old tricks before term starts. Sorry for the last minute entry, but I hadn't checked the list for some time, and just couldn't resist. Beth From rogers77 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 04:17:21 2005 From: rogers77 at earthlink.net (gailjr2001) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:17:21 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132821 I realize that my predictions are ineligible (it's after midnight), but I want to put them out there just for the heck of it! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the half-blood prince? Godric Griffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She has used her exceptional charms ability to aid the Order of the Phoenix in surprising ways. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shacklebolt. 7. What is the bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A cauldron. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWL's did Harry get? 11. Open predictions: 1. Snape was in love with Harry's mother. He left the Death Eaters to save her. 2. The reason Snape hates Harry so unreasonably is that he sees Lily's eyes in James's face, reminding him that Lily loved James, not him. 3. Snape uses a potion to change into a bat to spy on Voldemort and the Death Eaters. 4. Neville has been under the influence of a spell to impair his memory. 5. Neville's parents are being prevented from improving by the Drooble's gum. 6. Percy Weasley will die rectifying his past behavior. 7. Seamus Finnigan will play a more significant role, and is more than he seems. gailjr2001 From sagelyone at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 04:57:26 2005 From: sagelyone at hotmail.com (sagelyone) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:57:26 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132822 Ok... after weeks, months and years of lurking, I've decided to throw my hat into the ring. Forgot to realize the deadline was ET as I'm in the Rocky Mountains in Denver. Kim (looking for Denver fans to celebrate with tonight!) > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley- I'm going to have to agree with others... There are too many Weasleys, and we're detached enough from Percy by the end of OOP to be sad, but not that sad. I don't think the twins, Ron and Ginny will ever forgive him, even if he does come back groveling. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe > more.) I think it's an historical figure, as I don't see any of the major characters fitting this bill. Perhaps Hermonine and all her extra reading will uncover the secret of the HBP and it will help with the war. > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and > full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I don't think there's a big secret about her. (I've always thought the comments people made to Harry, "But your eyes, you have your mother's eyes" was kinda dumb. I mean, I look like my mom and have my dad's eyse, but no one waxes on about that fact. Only if she was known to have done something special with her green eyes, then it would be a point, but I still haven't figured it out.) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? McClagan (or whatever the name of that guy is) Sure I'll go with that one too. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think he'll have his last fling with Cho, just because she's "easy" and she'll be all into now that he's the hero of the WW again. But he'll soon realize that she's crazy and has no time for her... towards the end of the book, he'll start noticing Ginny. Remember, she's dating Dean Thomas now, and he shares a dorm with Harry. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shackelbolt. He's an auror and the WW will want to see someone strong in that position after Fudge and all his crap. Also, I named my cat Kingsley (after him) and it would suck if he died. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve. But didn't we get info stating that it wasn't a pensieve? Perhaps it's some new kind of magical device we haven't seen... like the mirror. Maybe it's like a pensieve but is a recording device...like a magical video camera. Dumbledore is keeping tabs on all things through this device. Remember he said Harry has been watched closely. And how did he know the Dursely's were about to kick him out in OOP? > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, of course... he has to. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No-- I never saw the Snape picking on Neville as an active plot device. Snape will still terrorize Neville in the hallways. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 10- I don't think he'll get 12... putting him on par with Bill and Percy... I think ron has got to sneak in there and get a bunch too. You can't really have Harry being totally better than the Weasely crew. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Neville knows about the prophecy... and he and Harry have a serious talk about things. From Neville's reactions at the DOM his gran has filled him in. 2. Ron continues to come into his own, realizes time is short and begins to show his feelings for Hermioe. He's a great Quidditch player and makes captain. 3. The restriction on underage magic is lifted given the war... and Harry will undoubtedly have to use magic before returning to school. If you're going to change the rules for Harry, why not change them for everyone? 4. Umbridge will get what's coming to her... Hermione will figure out... possibly with help from others in the DA that she is some sort of half-breed. I'd say she's going to Azkaban, but don't know if that will do any good if the dementors aren't around. The whole cutting kids' hands open will come to light and people will want her head on a platter. 5. Rita Skeeter learns the value of good journalism. 6. Harry ends up saving the Dursley's butt by using magic. Perhaps the dark mark is over their house and Harry has to fight off some DEs. Vernon will be speechless. 7. Petunia and Dudley show us some magic of their own. 8. We learn more about the magic of the house elves 9. Hermione starts to reevaluate what it means to advocate for the elves and thinks about the what happened with the centaurs. (The forest incident nags her all summer) 10. the trio learn about (and how to) apparate 11. The twins' joke shop plays a role in the war, although Mrs. Weasley still thinks they are wasting their lives. By the end of the book, she'll think different about their cleverness. Hoping I can sneak these in... Kim From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 06:24:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:24:22 -0000 Subject: Harry, Trust, & The Flying Car In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kabuki" wrote: > > .... When I read CoS initially I didn't understand Harry's > reluctance to wait for the return of Molly and Arthur ... or just > send an owl. There has been discussion on list about Harry's trust > issues when it comes to adults, which could explan why he chose to > solve the problem himself. Why didn't he send Hedwig? ...edited.... > With floo he can see the person face-to-face instead of sending a > letter and wondering about a response. > > ... > > deadly_nightshade bboyminn: It was Harry who was reluctant to use the Flying Car, and Ron that talked him into it. Harry didn't know what to do until Ron suggested the Car. As far as using his Owl, remember that the school is 500 miles away. I'm sure Harry was doubtful that the owl could make the trip and get back to them in less that a couple of days at best. Also, the barrier was sealed, and they, rightly or wrongly, assumed it was also sealed on the other side so Mr. & Mrs. Weasley could get back out. Of course, as Ron points out, the Weasley parents could Apparate back home, but futher thought would have made them realize that the Weasley parents could probably Apparate across the stone barrier; very short sighted. So, in the heat of the moment, two 12 year olds did the best they could. They looked around for available resources and saw the car, then Ron had a brilliant solution; or so he thought. Youth and eagerness are the real culprits here. As far as Floo-Powered, if they had sent an Owl, and the owl had arrived in a reasonable time, and they had gotten a response in a reasonable time, and if they could have found another fireplace, then they could have Floo'd to Hogsmead, then walked up to the castle. But that is a lot of "if's". Flying the car just seems so much easier. Mr. Weasley could always apparate to Hogsmead, the fly the car back. But sadly, or gladly depending on your positions, the story went the way it went because that was the way it had to go. As far as Harry's trust, I don't really think he trusts many people. He trusts Ron and Hermoione, but even with them he is not always forth coming. He certainly has never had any reason to trust adults, and just as he was beginning to trust Dumbledore, Dumbledore seems to betray him, and when Dumbledore in the 5th book explains his seeming betrayal, it's too late because Sirius is already dead. So, even now, Harry has very little reason to trust adults, or anyone for that matter. True he is growing up, and he is getting better, but he has been betrayed by life too many times to completely trust anyone. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 15 06:42:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:42:02 -0000 Subject: What's in Filch's drawers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" > > wrote: > > > I was going to keep out of this one, as it's definately OT > > > > > > > Cricket anyone? > > > > Geoff: > > Of course it's not OT...... > > > > What Filch keeps in his drawers is very important to the development > of the plot in POA. > > > > I think that bowls your middle stump.... > > > Karen again: > > Definitely a yorker. Perfect line and length. No not the contents of > Filch's drawers! Geoff: I'm beginning to regret I raised this matter. To use a UK colloquialism, I think it's a load of pants. In case I don't post again today, happy reading to everyone tomorrow. My personal HBP prediction is that the name "Harry" will appear in the book more than once. I must ask my other half is she's been putting something in my coffee. I've been having a silly season for the last day or so. It's all Filch's fault. I wish he'd take his cat and go off on holiday for a while. From lebowjessica at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 06:40:12 2005 From: lebowjessica at yahoo.com (lebowjessica) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:40:12 -0000 Subject: Chapter Titles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132825 I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter titles of HBP? It seems that there are many editorials on Mugglenet that are right on! Any comments? "Jessica" From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 07:54:46 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:54:46 -0000 Subject: Twins or individuals (with notes on Percy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132826 Hekatesheadband: (snipping hard-worked analyse on the twins...) When Percy returns Mrs Weasley's gift, it's George who tries to cheer her up by reminding her that "Percy's an enormous pile of rat droppings." Bear in mind that George is the sensitive one, the > thoughtful one, the closest thing to a conscience Fred (or the unit > of The Twins) sometimes seems to have. > > At any rate, we may know in about 24 hours whether all of this > means anything. Until then, fodder for obsession. Finwitch: I just like to add that when the twins and Ron saved Harry in CoS, and Molly's about to scold them Fred says: It was cloudy, Mum - (that doesn't get her to stop, BUT- maybe it does ease her a bit) George says: They were starving him, Mum (Molly's distracted and starts feeding Harry instead... she becomes torn between scolding the twins and comforting Harry. And she never says a thing to Ron.) I think that discussion shows their difference a bit most clearly. Fred's the one who's their expert in minimizing risks or should I say, taking calculated risks the one looking on the method and the action the *how*, the consequences as well - George the one who comes up with the *reasons*. Yes, I'd say - George thanks Harry while Fred's already planning how to carry out their end of the deal - buying Ron new dressrobes, starting the business and NOT telling anyone where the money came from. George is most against Percy, - yes. Why? 1) Percy appears not to care or even strongly disagree that there ARE reasons why one *should* break the rules. Look at Harry rescuing Neville's remembrall for example. 2) So far as the twins know, Percy doesn't have reasons other than his own ambition and love for rules to his - well, alienation from the entire family, which is something George cannot approve of. 3)I'd certainly expect there to be quarrel with someone who praises the method - rules - so far as to totally ignore reasons and one who considers the reasons first and methods hardly ever (that's Fred's job in the twin-unit)... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 08:17:51 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:17:51 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132827 Dilia wrote: > > You make an excellent point, Vivian; notwithstanding, what do you > think about the possibilities of Dudley being the one who gains > powers late in life? Seeing that he is a half blood wizard. Finwitch: Dudley as the Half-blood Prince? Possible, but -- they spend so little time at Dursleys in this book... Of course, until Saturday, it's not certain whether HBP is even a person. Could be - a learning method, which can only be used by half-blood wizards (I read a fanfic of this sort once) but I certainly hope not. I don't want a SuperHarry who can learn things faster than Hermione... A potion, a drink, a plant, a jewel - loads of things. Of the persons -- A portrait, possibly; Godric Gryffindor (two others don't fit being female, and SS must have been pure-blood) - Aberforth Dumbledore (in which case Albus would be half-blood king) but I doubt it to be either one - well, quite possibly a new character, though. As much as SS (and the Chamber) and GG (or his sword) have been out, what of RR and HH? Maybe Luna will come up with some legacy RR left behind? (at least she's IN Ravenclaw, so why not. I don't know who I'd pick for HH with Cedric dead...) Finwitch From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 15 08:19:54 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:19:54 -0000 Subject: Chapter Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132828 I've seen 2 totally different lists of chapter titles on a site someone on OT Chatter mentioned. Neither of which seemed to me to sound right. Oh well we'll all know soon enough! Happy reading everyone! Karen --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" wrote: > I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter titles of HBP? > > It seems that there are many editorials on Mugglenet that are > right on! > > Any comments? > > > "Jessica" From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 08:43:11 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:43:11 -0000 Subject: Harry, Trust, & The Flying Car In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132829 > > bboyminn: > > As far as using his Owl, remember that the school is 500 miles away. > I'm sure Harry was doubtful that the owl could make the trip and get > back to them in less that a couple of days at best. Finwitch: Quite right - Harry would well have doubted whether the Owl would make it in time, possibly even whether the delivery would be made at all. At that point - Harry has not sent any letters (no one to send letters to, and when he did, Dursleys had locked Hedwig in the cage). He has recieved only TWO letters: First one only because Hagrid delivered it *in person*; second because Molly was there to deliver it. Now, with no wizarding adults around, Harry probably doesn't trust Owl mail much at all. Too many bad experiences. Things are different in PoA - Harry is recieving mail quite well, and in GoF he's even sending, but he also gets warnings about sending Hedwig not being safe, and a letter WAS intercepted in OOP and Hedwig got hurt... I wonder. Will Hedwig die in HBP? I think Errol might die of old age... Finwitch From pfsch at gmx.de Fri Jul 15 08:46:16 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:46:16 -0000 Subject: Errata (prediction contest) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132830 Hi celebrim! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celebrimborcormacolindor" wrote: > Sorry, I made a mistake. My answer to question 6 - "Who will be the > new Minister of Magic?" - is *Amelia* Bones and *not* Susan Bones That would have been a prediction I'd like to see to come true. :) Goodbite Anatol (www.setrok.de) From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jul 15 09:15:47 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:15:47 -0000 Subject: OWLs .... re: Mrs Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132831 Amiable Dorsai wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132519 : << [Hermione] may even squeak out a divination OWL, assuming that one can get an "A" just by knowing the theory >> Hermione didn't get a Divination OWL because her Arithmancy exam was at the same time as the Divination exam. IIRC in the afternoon between the Astronomy theory (morning) and Astronomy practical (evening). So I'm thinking that the Divination OWL doesn't have a theory paper and would the Arithmancy OWL be only theory or only practical? If Percy and Bill got 12 OWLs each, then Hermione must have got either 12 or 13 (13 being the 12 Percy and Bill got plus Muggle Studies). But canon only tells us of 10 exams she took: Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, DADA, Ancient Runes, Potions, CoMC, Astronomy, Arithmancy, History of Magic. It seems to me that one possibility is that one of these exams gives 3 OWLs or two of them give 2 OWLs. It kind of makes sense to me that History of Magic could give 2 OWLs, one for the BC era and one for the AD era (possibly called History of Ancient Magic and History of British Magic). I have been told that that's different from O Levels, but the wizarding folk have some unique folkways... Another possibility is about the Friday that was a day off for Harry and Ron and Ancient Runes exam for Hermione: if the Ancient Runes exam was only a half-day like the Arithmancy exam, she might have take another half-day exam that day. It occurred to me that, the wizarding world being its own thing, it might be a special OWL for Prefects only, with questions about leadership and discipline and authority and so on. Harry wouldn't even have known abou it, and I guess Ron wouldn't have taken an exam that he had the option of not taking... I'd say we'll know in ten hours, but with JKR's maths, we may never know. Hickengruendler wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132600 : << While reading book 5 I was not the least bit surprised that Mrs Figg was a Squib, because this information wasn't knew to me at all. I totally started reading the book knowing that she's a Squib. It was only later that I realised that JKR never seemed to have said this, or that at least I couldn't find the quote, and that it just seemed to have been a fan-theory that I believed which turned out to be true by accident. But that does prove that this theory existed. >> We have only hearsay evidence, so it is not considered canon, but people who attended Her reading and Q&A at the Toronto Skydome in 2000 (of which I have never found a transcript) said that She said there that Mrs. Figg is a Squib. That led to a theory that the Arabella Figg mentioned at the end of GoF, being one of 'the old crowd' must be a witch, and therefore was Mrs. Figg's beautiful young niece, and possibly Sirius's pre-Azkaban love interest. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 09:30:33 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:30:33 -0000 Subject: revised prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132832 > "GretchnKY" >3.When Harry comes eye to eye with Voldemort yet again, it will be on >Harry's terms. Harry will call Voldemort "Tom" --as Dumbledore does-- >which will cause the Dark Lord to fear Harry for the first time. Oooh, I like this prediction. I can just see Harry calling Voldemort 'Tom'. Bet Ol' Voldie won't like that. Diana L. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 15 09:55:59 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:55:59 -0000 Subject: Chapter Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" wrote: Jessica: > I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter titles of HBP? > > It seems that there are many editorials on Mugglenet that are > right on! > > Any comments? Geoff: The chapter titles were revealed on JKR's site back at Hallowe'en last year. They are - Chapter 2: Spinner's End Chapter 6: Draco's Detour Chapter 14: Felix Felicis There is a lot of discussion about them starting round about message 116852 "How to get through the door" From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 10:03:41 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:03:41 -0000 Subject: Extraordinary magic in the climax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that the climax/resolutions of the books > generally seem to involved magic that goes beyond anything else we > see in the books? > > PS/SS - The Mirror of ERISED can actually manipulate objects in the > room based on the desires of the looker! Finwitch: Well, it IS logical that if someone had a desire to FIND the stone - not USE it -or, like Quirrell, present it to his master - he'd know WHERE the stone was, right, even if the mirror did not show any truth really? Dumbledore put such a spell into it to hide the stone. Oh, I think I do know that Voldemort knew how the mirror worked, BUT neither he nor Quirrel had the correct DESIRE to key the stone... that's why says: "use the boy". > CoS - Loyalty to Dumbledore summon Fawkes... carrying the Sorting > Hat... containing Gryffindor's sword!! Who saw that coming? Finwitch: Well -- Dumbledore did sort of say Fawkes would remain - "So long as just one who's loyal to me remains at Hogwarts I have not truly left" or some such -- of course, Harry didn't understand that hint, even though Dumbledore had, upon describing a Phoenix, told him and even ephacised: they make very *faithful* pets. Or about that help being always given at Hogwarts when asked... Of course he couldn't say it directly, but that's what we got. Anyway, in this AND first book, the objects(and bird) were there all along, we just learn something new of them. > PoA - A bit different... we are aware of Animagi, and it's no > shocker that there is time travel involved given Hermione's class > schedule, and we are familiar with Patroni, but the conclusion to > this book incorporates a) three characters having turned themselves > into animagi; b) three hours of time travel; c) Harry conjuring a > Patronus, that d) is his father's animagus form. Finwitch: Yes, well, the big deal was Sirius the godfather, offering him a home - thus creating a happy enough memory for Harry1 to keep the Dementors away long enough for Harry2 to cast the Patronus. As we see in OOP casting a patronus when one is NOT under Dementor-influence is much easier (as Harry2 was not). That's why I consider the not-so- corporeal Patronus that Harry1, under the attack of *several* Dementors to be the key moment in Harry's mastering the spell, more than the corporeal one Harry2 cast. We're not even told what happy thought he used for it. The one Harry1 cast, however - it's the hope of going to live with Sirius instead of Dursleys... and that's telling, IMO. Harry couldn't have cast either Patronus had he permitted Sirius&Remus kill Pettigrew. > GoF - That crazy scene with the golden dome, the phoenix song, the > Priori Incatatum that generated "shadow spells" that actually knew > what was going on, rooted for Harry, and held LV back for a few > seconds so Harry could run to the Cup. Crazy stuff! Finwitch: Well, we've known that Harry's wand was brother of Voldemort's since Harry bought it. And the Priori Incantatem as well as spell-echos were presented in the QWC when Amos tested Harry's wand. We just didn't know that brother wands fighting would have that sort of effect. > OoP - Statues coming to life, the Veil... I don't have it with me > and it's been a month since I read this but I seem to remember some > other intense magical activity going on between LV and DD. Finwitch: Well, we did hear of Department of Mysteries in GoF, at QWC - 'no one knows what they are doing' - the Department was also brought up in a discussion with Luna, Harry's trial near it and Harry's dreams of it.. really, what WOULD you expect to find in Department of Mysteries but devices dedicted to study the greatest Mysteries - death, life, time, thought/human mind, truth, future i.e Prophecies...? As for the statues coming alive... what of the armours, gargoyles, portraits, talking mirrors and moving staircases at Hogwarts? The statue itself was well portrayed before and after the trial. Or the giant Chess set? I would have been MORE surprised if Dumbledore, the great and powerful wizard, could not enchant a statue, when different enchanted objects for different purposes are found and discussed of ever since the first book... Maybe they'll go as far as to teach the students to enchant in the next book... be it Charms or Transfiguration. Finwitch From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 10:07:51 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:07:51 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132835 > Dilia wrote: >I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former witch. I Vivian wrote: > Yes, I think that Petunia is the witch that will gain powers > late in life. JKR once mentioned that there was a character > that would gain powers late in life. It's got to be Petunia. Dilia: You make an excellent point, Vivian; notwithstanding, what do you think about the possibilities of Dudley being the one who gains powers late in life? Seeing that he is a half blood wizard. vmonte again: I posted this a while ago but here is why I think that Petunia will be a late bloomer: JKR quote: "In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about." Before Harry started school at Hogwarts we were told that he had magical ability. His magic would manifest itself when he was upset. Anger, fear, and self preservation could activate Harry's magic. Petunia would also know what would cause Harry's magic to appear since she grew up with Lily and I'm sure she saw the signs in her sister. I think that Petunia has been spoiling and babying Dudley his whole life because she is afraid that if he gets upset he may show signs of becoming a wizard. Anyway, I think Petunia has it wrong. I think that it is she who will turn out to be a witch. Think about it. It would be the worst thing that could happen to Petunia (in her opinion). It would be just the kind of thing that JKR would enjoy doing to her. As far as why Petunia's house is so clean: Have you ever met people with obsessive compulsive behaviors? Petunia has control issues. Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 10:13:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:13:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132836 OOTP, page 640, U.S. edition Snape's Worst Memory "Harry looked around carefully. Snape had to be here somewhere .This was his memory ." Page 641 "Excitement exploded in the pit of his stomach: It was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on his forehead, but the had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows. James's hair stuck up at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's, and Harry could tell that when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other's heights." Page 642 "Harry's stomach gave another pleasurable squirm?was Remus Lupin. He looked rather pale and peaky (was the full moon approaching?) and was absorbed in the exam " Page 643 "Snape remained close by, still buried in his examination questions; but this was Snape's memory, and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any farther. To his intense relief, however, when James and his three friends strode off down the lawn toward the lake, Snape followed, still poring over the paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going." Page 646 ? Snape is attacked "You?wait," he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest loathing. "You?wait ." "Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?" Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 10:17:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:17:45 -0000 Subject: About Neville's Parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132837 Another take on what happened to Neville's parents on the night they were attacked by DEs: I wouldn't be surprised if Snape was there with Lucius. This event happened after GH, and Lucius would have told Voldemort about it. Snape being there would be enough proof to Voldemort that Snape was still on his side and working from within Hogwarts. I also see Snape as having a personal vendetta against Neville (much along the lines of Harry) that reflects perhaps an equal dislike of his parents. Perhaps, Neville will begin to remember some of the events regarding his parents attack. I also feel that the reason why Neville wasn't killed during that encounter was because Snape and gang were afraid to curse him in case his mother also put the protective charm on him that Lily used. Dumbledore stated to Harry in OOTP that the prophecy could have been about him or Neville. It wasn't until Voldemort attacked Harry that everyone realized who he had chosen. I could see Lily and Neville's mother both protecting their children with the same charm. It's even possible that they were both friends. (They were after all in the Order, and both expecting children at the same time.) I will laugh out loud if Voldemort ends up using the killing curse on Neville only to find out that he still has the charm in place. This may be the "power the Dark Lord knows not" (which technically is the power of a parent's love for their child. Something that Voldemort has never known)." If Voldemort becomes Vapormort again it may give Harry enough time to finally vanquish Voldemort for good. Vivian From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 10:32:59 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:32:59 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- If you want to change your predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > Revised entries: > > If you would like to make changes to your predictions, > resend your entire HBP prediction contest entry (all 10 compulsory > questions and all 5 open predictions) with your new answers *both* > to the list and to Tiger. > > I will delete your old entry when I receive your new one. > > The deadline still applies to revisions. Get them in by midnight, > tonight! > > TK -- TigerPatronus Just like to let everybody know that I had already changed my prediction for new Minister of Magic from Amos Diggory to Amelia Bones. For the simple reason that Amelia with her overbearing personality and booming voice would be perfect as a wartime minister. She somehow reminds me of Winston Churchill. -Maus Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 10:42:09 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:42:09 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132839 Harry Potter Questions 1. Has Lupin ever killed anyone while in werewolf form? 2. Was Lupin a werewolf on the night that Lily and James were killed? 3. Is the voice that Harry believes to be his father telling his mother to run (dementor scene in PoA) really James? Or, is it another case of mistaken identity? 4. Will Voldemort get his hands on a time turner? 5. Will Harry travel back in time and be mistaken for James? 6. Did the Weasley twins use a time-turner during the quidditch nationals. 7. Is there something in Snape's worst memory that Snape does not want Dumbledore to know? 8. Did Sirius's prank against Snape happen on the night of the Hogwarts exams (Snape's penseive memory)? 9. Who were Lily's best friends? 10. Whose brain attacked Ron? (Flamel? Godric?) 11. Who is inside Harry? Is there a bit of Tom Riddle inside Harry? 12. Will Harry eventually be able to do magic without a wand? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 10:53:30 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:53:30 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost / Honeydukes tunnel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tiffany Black" wrote: > Vinia: > > 5. There will be an attack in Hogsmeade, Death Eater will try > > to get into Hogwarts from the Honeydukes tunnel. > > > Tiffany: > Wow, that's creepy. I was just thinking abut that this morning, > because Pettigrew does know about that secret tunnel, as he > helped put it on the map. Valky: I maintain definitively it will be the Caved In Tunnel not the Honeydukes Tunnel. There will certinly be some explicit strategic reason why that particular Tunnel is(was) chosen by Voldie maybe the fact that it's on the Fourth floor (what else is on the Fourth floor BTW?). The fourth Floor Tunnel "mysteriously" caved in when Tom!Ginny was wandering the Halls of Hogwarts, now can we really believe that little Tom didn't get up to a LOT more mischief than we know of in 1992? My prediction (nice and late on the boards so it might be seen after the reading..) Peter comes/came through the caved in Tunnel behind the mirror and down to the Chamber of Secrets he collected things for Voldemort weapon sorts of things and brought them back to the tunnel.. here he has set up a pretty elaborate nasty for Dumbledore to encounter this year. Harry will catch the scent of the Pettigrew trail when he encounters Myrtle in the Prefects Bathroom... A nice wild stab in the dark 12 hrs before the Gong.. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 10:56:25 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:56:25 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- If you want to change your predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132841 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" > wrote: > > Revised entries: > -Maus > Just like to let everybody know that I had already changed my > prediction for new Minister of Magic from Amos Diggory to Amelia > Bones. > > For the simple reason that Amelia with her overbearing personality > and booming voice would be perfect as a wartime minister. She somehow > reminds me of Winston Churchill. > Valky: Just also letting all know, I changed my entry earlier to add a name to the Most Central Character to Die.. (question1) My entry now has Harry Potter as the first choice with Bane as the second. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 15 11:03:31 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:03:31 -0000 Subject: Order Communication Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132842 JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of us thought in the first place. I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some other information too. So, without doing so, she answered some other questions: Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected he couldn't. Of course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" There was also some doubt about Lupin being able to conjure a corporal Patronus. But this would indicate that he can. I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. Something new to discuss just as time is running out... Potioncat From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 11:04:14 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:04:14 -0000 Subject: FAQ Poll Answered!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132843 The Memebrs of the order communicate via........ .... ..... ..... ....... .... wait for it....... ... enough spoiler space????? Patronuses. Valky From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 11:12:25 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:12:25 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. > > I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order > members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use > them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some > other information too. > > So, without doing so, she answered some other questions: > Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected he couldn't. Of > course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" > > There was also some doubt about Lupin being able to conjure a > corporal Patronus. But this would indicate that he can. > > I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg > can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. > > Something new to discuss just as time is running out... > Potioncat Valky: Darn it you beat me by a fraction with this newsflash potioncat. :( I have been checking all day too, hoping that Jo would answer a question today to share our spirit of excitement with us. Well since you have asked the question on everyones lips I will give you the answer I was baiting for in my post. Severus Snape conjures a particularly special patronus I have believed for several months. I predict Snapes Patronus is a Unicorn, my reasoning is based somewhat on Theological stuff, but basically the reasoning is that Dumbledore has incredible faith in Snapes loyalty which would suggest that something symbolic of Sevvies deeper emotional persona would be a symbol of incredible loyalty.. That translates virtually literally into a Unicorn Patronus. Just for the record thats my opinion forward.. Valky From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 11:16:43 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:16:43 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132845 vmonte: > Harry Potter Questions > 2. Was Lupin a werewolf on the night that Lily and James were killed? AD: The moon was not full on Oct. 31, 1981. It wouldn't be full until November 11. Mind you, Rowling seems to use a different sort of calendar than the rest of us... Amiable Dorsai From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Fri Jul 15 11:24:02 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:24:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715112402.63016.qmail@web86201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132846 --- potioncat wrote: > So, without doing so, she answered some other > questions: > Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected > he couldn't. Of > course now the new question is "What is Snape's > happy thought?" How about "James is dead, James is dead, James is very, very dead"? Just kidding. And yes, what were the other two questions? Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 15 11:32:50 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:32:50 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132847 vmonte asked: > 8. Did Sirius's prank against Snape happen on the night of the > Hogwarts exams (Snape's penseive memory)? Potioncat: Remus and Sirius discuss the fact that it isn't a full moon that night. Sirius wants to go out and play. But, Remus isn't looking too good so there is a possibility that the moon will be full in a few days. In Harry's year, there was about a week of school after his last OWL exam. So there is a possibility that the Prank happens before the end of school. From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 11:40:29 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:40:29 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132848 potioncat wrote: > > So, without doing so, she answered some other questions: > Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected he couldn't. Of > course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" > > There was also some doubt about Lupin being able to conjure a > corporal Patronus. But this would indicate that he can. > > I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg > can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. > > Something new to discuss just as time is running out... > Potioncat If anyone could teach Hagrid to conjure a Patronus, it would be Albus Dumbledore. Somehow I can imagine Hagrid can conjure a patronus, and that it is something absolutely huge and scary, or as Hagrid would call it, an "interesting" animal. For those members who can't conjure (such as Figgy), perhaps they have another means to communicate directly with Dumbledore - such as the two-way mirrors that Sirius and James used? Or perhaps there's a portrait in a hidden room of Figgy's house, a former Headmaster perhaps? Now... Snape's happy thought. I can't imagine his happy thought would be something the rest of us would normally call "happy." I mean for a lot of us our happiest moment would involve a loved one, either a wedding or a child or even a moment with our parents. Can't imagine Snape having happy thoughts like that. I CAN however, imagine Snape's happiest thought being the time he really got one over on James & Sirius (I presume there is such a time). Or perhaps the day Dumbledore "forgave" him for his DE past and took him back. I wonder if your happy thought can be one that hasn't happened yet, but you imagine soon will? If it can, perhaps his happy thought is the day Voldemort is fully gone. -Tammy, who still thinks 16 hours is too long :P From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Fri Jul 15 11:57:03 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:57:03 -0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132850 1. Who will be the most major character to die? McGonagall 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Some completely new character, but not the Lion Guy 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an animagus 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shacklebolt 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Some new toy of Dumbledore's 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Eight Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Centaurs will join the WWII, though reluctantly 2. Both sides of the war will do anything in their power to get goblins on their side. 3. Ron will finally grow up and start dating Hermione 4. Snape will find himself in big trouble with Voldemort, but will survive it 5. the Burrow will be attacked by Death Eaters From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 12:04:28 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:04:28 -0000 Subject: Things about which I will be 100% wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132851 Remember back when we were all sitting here (or a bunch of us anyway- welcome to those who weren't. I wasn't trying to exclude you) and we were waiting for the release of OoP? Well, back then whenever someone would say "Neville's parents were Aurors" I would reply (either onlist or off through gritted teeth) that his parents were *not* Aurors. JKR only said his father was. I was wrong. And when people referred to MWPP as "the Marauders" because it was the Marauder's Map, I would point out (either onlist of off as I ripped out my hair) that it would be the Marauders' Map had they called themselves that. I was wrong. So now for the things I will be wrong about in HBP: Ginny and Dean are not dating. Ginny only said she "chose" Dean when Ron said he hoped she'd choose wisely. Nothing was said about whether or not Dean had any say in this, or even any knowledge of it. Although I'm sure he has been told by now. One would think if he returned her feelings, he'd be sitting there with her, or she'd be sitting where ever he was since it would be 2 months before they'd see each other again. Of course, that may be the G/H shipper in me talking. I will be wrong. Bill and Fleur are not dating. Fred and George snigger about how Bill is giving Fleur English lessons, but we never see him bring her around or talk about her, or even mention her. He talks about Ragnok, but I don't think there are any shipping overtones in that conversation. No, when Fleur gave him the come hither look in GoF, he was unfazed. She told Ron and Harry that she was going to get a job in England to improve her English. Now Bill is teaching her. Quite frankly, if I went to a foreign country to learn the language, and I had the ability to turn the average man into a drooling stammerer with his tongue waggling drawer-length or lower, I'd choose a language teacher who could keep his mind around me. I'd be looking for diction, enunciation, coherence. All of which are limited at best when one's tongue is lolling. Then again, this may be the Bill/Remus shipper in me talking. I will be wrong. Catlady (waves southwestward) touched on something that I had planned to bring up. JKR said Mrs Figg was a squib, but we went on our merry way with our polyjuice theories and predicted that she would be the next DADA teacher, despite the fact that the ever-delightful Kelley pointed out in message #16701 that JKR had said this in an AOL interview. So now I have to wonder: Are we missing anything? Is there a forgotten interview that isn't archived that would cause us all to smack our heads in disbelief? The world may never know; but if it did, I'd be wrong. Ginger, who also argued once upon a time that there was no way on God's Green Earth that Darth Vader was Luke's father. I was wrong. From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Fri Jul 15 12:15:26 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:15:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's happy thought (was Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: > potioncat wrote: > Of course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" Would have suspected it's "James is dead, hooray!" but he still hates him too much to enjoy the thought of his archenemy's death (I always thought that Snape considers James's death to be be a stupid prank aimed at not letting Severus pay his debt). My guesses for Sev's happy thought: 1. Graduation from Hogwarts ("No more school! No more Marauders!") 2. Some professional achievement in potions ("I made it! I made it!") 3. "Black's dead, yes!" Monika From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Jul 15 12:23:03 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:23:03 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. > > I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order > members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use > them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some > other information too. > Of course, from OOTP, we all remember Harry teaching the whole DA how to cast Patronuses. Something tells me Harry will be teaching them how to communicate with them after learning it off of Dumbledore or an Order member, and this will become the official DA method of communication as well... --Arcum From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 13:06:54 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:06:54 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132854 potioncat wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. > > I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order > members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use > them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some > other information too. > > So, without doing so, she answered some other questions: > Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected he couldn't. Of > course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" > > There was also some doubt about Lupin being able to conjure a > corporal Patronus. But this would indicate that he can. > > I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg > can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. > > Something new to discuss just as time is running out... > Potioncat vmonte: So does anyone think that the ghosty like thing that is leaving the house (artwork on back side of HBP cover) through the window is a patronus? Does anyone think that Snape's patronus is a bat? Vivian From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 13:10:57 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:10:57 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest now closed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132855 Hello All, The HBP prediction contest is now officially closed. All answers currently in my email account are final. While many people have generously volunteered for Minion duty already, I still have some openings for Minions. Please contact me if you would like to volunteer to evaluate contest entries. Each Minion will receive a secret Minion codename, a grading rubric, and a packet of 10 entries. It should take no more than 2 hours to familiarize yourself with the rubric and grade all 10 entries. Indeed, it should be more like 1 1/2 hours. TK -- TigerPatronus From garybec101 at comcast.net Fri Jul 15 13:16:02 2005 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:16:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Order Communication Message-ID: <071520051316.77.42D7B711000F23CD0000004D2205886360CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132856 -------------- Original message -------------- potioncat wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. > > vmonte: So does anyone think that the ghosty like thing that is leaving the house (artwork on back side of HBP cover) through the window is a patronus? Does anyone think that Snape's patronus is a bat? Vivian Becki here; YES!!! That was my first thought. I can remember somewhere in the series that it states that a bat is flying around or that someone sees a bat flying. I can't imagine Snape having something pure as a unicorn as his patronus. Although if you would ask my 11 year old daughter, (shes a bat freak), a bat is pure and warm and cuddly. What if someones patronus is not a great one for communications, for instance, a turtle? _ Becki (who finally cleaned through 3000 emails yesterday to prepare for next week!!! Only 14.75 hours to go. 8) Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Adult education Organizational culture Harry potter book YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 15 13:22:08 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:22:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Order Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D7B880.9060407@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132857 S P O I L E R S P A C E >potioncat wrote: > > >>I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order >>members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use >>them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some >>other information too. >> >> >vmonte: > >So does anyone think that the ghosty like thing that is leaving the >house (artwork on back side of HBP cover) through the window is a >patronus? > heather now: I added spoiler space since this is discussing the cover art. Yes, I think that's a communication patronus, and I thought that even before we learned that we had guessed right about the communication. Yay! I think the shadow person in the window sees the fellow coming, and is saying "it's him", and another person there is sending out a patronus (is it a swan, maybe?) to send for help. I like the idea that Harry and DD are watching a memory of the events at GH, but I'm not totally convinced by it either. Find out soon enough... My S.O. noticed something about the cover too... he thinks it's interesting that Harry is the one in FRONT, as though he's leading the way and DD is the one following. Hmm. I just got my email notice that my copy of HBP has shipped. :) And I've decided to pick up the adult cover version tonight at the local Potter Party heh... so we'll have 2 copies and won't have to fight over them. Never got the adult version before, I have no urge that I need to 'mask' my HP fandom, I'll read the kid's cover proudly. But it'll be nice to have 2 different versions. Then when my son (he's just 7 now) gets to book 6, he can have the kid's cover one for himself. Our copies of 1-4 are the paperback (which we got as a box set, arriving late in the game) and he has so far nearly *destroyed* 1 and 2 reading them. I guess it means they're well-loved! This way, he can destroy one copy of book 6 and we'll keep the other in good shape... lol... Anyway... this will probably be my last post until after the moratorium, since I have a very busy day today culminating in the Potter Party. Sonny bubbles is being allowed to stay up till midnight for it heh... Such fun... I'll be dressing up as a witch, I have a nice long black wig so perhaps I'll be Bellatrix... and sonny has a nice medieval king's costume so he's going to go as the Half-Blood Prince! LOL See you all after we've read it! heather the buzzard From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 14:00:08 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:00:08 -0000 Subject: Filk: Medley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132858 This is a Medley from Paul McCartny's "Give My Regards to Broad Street" It comprises Yesterday; Here, There and Everywhere; and Wanderlust. The actual title of this medley is "Grimmauld Place/Hear There and Everywhere/Dungbombs" but that was too long for the subject line. I found it highly amusing that on the tape the dialogue before the song starts is: "You don't think Harry'd go and do a stupid thing like that, do you?" "Yes, I do." To CMC The scene: 12 Grimmauld Place after Harry's arrival. HARRY (to the tune of Yesterday) Grimmauld Place. Hiding in an odd enchanted space. Secret kept from the whole Muggle race. Now I've arrived at Grimmauld Place. Look at me! I'm the centre of this mystery, But no one here will enlighten me. I'm mad, and I've a right to be. So, before I blow, I must know Each last detail. No one sent an owl- I cry "foul"- Nor Muggle mail. Hermi'ne- You and Ron know what this means to me, Yet your letters were all substance-free. What kind of friends are you to me? GEORGE AND FRED: (to the tune of Here, There, and Everywhere) GEORGE: Evesdropping is your right, and we've a plot of our own. Hear, with an extendable ear. Over the stairwell, you'll hear what they've planned, Why we've been banned, And whether You-Know-Who's near. FRED: We use them everywhere, Though we realize that some think we're not playing fair. But since when has prudence been our greatest care? We have got info to share. Each one receiving each murmur and sigh. Give it a try. We know they are meeting there. BOTH: We can hear there and everywhere. Hear there and everywhere. GINNY: (to the tune of Wanderlust) Take a few dungbombs. Throw them down to see. If they bounce, then the door is charmed. Tonks showed that to me. Try some more dungbombs. Let no one else see. Mum finds out- she'll make a fuss And yell angrily. GINNY'S CHORUS: Fly now, nice dungbombs. Help us now to see. Fly now, nice dungbombs. Do it for Harry. Nice dungbombs. Oh, they bounced upon the door. This one's not to be. CROOKSHANKS: (singing the countermelody) Oh, how did they know what I love? How nice of them to throw them from above. I'm just so glad they found the time to play. Throw more dungbombs my way! GINNY repeats her CHORUS. GINNY AND CROOKSHANKS sing the CHORUS and countermelody as a duet. CROOKSHANKS: I'm so glad I'm here just in time For dungbombs thrown to me. Ginger, clearing the desk of the Half-Filked Song before the Half- Blood Prince arrives. From jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 15 14:10:47 2005 From: jlv230 at yahoo.co.uk (jlv230) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:10:47 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132859 > Potioncat: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. JLV: I remeber a discussion on this list suggesting that this was the only question that may *not* have been answered, which is why we chose it. > Potioncat: > I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order > members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use > them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives > some other information too. JLV: I thought this was interesting too! (In fact it was the first speculation I dared to make on this board! It was shot down by alot of people, though... I'm glad JKR didn't listen!) I love the fact that Patronuses (although I used to say Patroni - thanks for the correction JKR!) have more uses than 'just' dementor repulsion. I would like to re-speculate that Harry's Prongs!Patronus will do something spectacular in book 6 or 7 to save Harry or defeat Voldemort. I'm sure James Potter will help Harry in the end. The metaphor is just too perfect (IMHO). > So, without doing so, she answered some other questions: > Can Snape conjure a Patronus? Many readers suspected he couldn't. > Of course now the new question is "What is Snape's happy thought?" > There was also some doubt about Lupin being able to conjure a > corporal Patronus. But this would indicate that he can. JLV: I believe we see Lupin cast a Patronus on the train in PoA. As we don't know about them in the book yet, it is only described as a silvery thing, but I took "thing" to mean object - otherwise why not say smoke or mist? As for Snape's Patronus, the mind boggles. He is too much of an enigma for me to work it out. > Potioncat: > I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg > can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. JLV: We knew Mrs Figg couldn't use the method already, as it would requre a wand (as JKR stated some time ago on her site). I would be interested to see if Hagrid can - I am sure that, with enough practice over aperiod of time, any wizard could. The special thing with Harry was he learnt so young and so quickly. I doubt, however, Hagrid's could quite send off 100 dementors... > Potioncat: > Something new to discuss just as time is running out... JLV: Exactly. And I'm glad this question won - I think the other answers might have been a bit spoilery... But roll on tomorrow - I'm personally waitng for the Amazon.co.uk owl tomorrow. JLV xx From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 14:46:24 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:46:24 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jo's other poll questions Message-ID: <410-220057515144624733@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 132860 > Hi guys, > > Desperately need help here. Anyone knows the other two questions on Jo's latest poll? > > Thanks for the help > > > Vinnia > Chancie: The other Questions where: ~Will Harry continue to study Occulmency with either Snape or someone else? ~Is that really a pensive on the cover of HBP? I didn't vote for either of these, because I knew I'd know the answers to those questions shortly, but the communication question could have been left open ended for quite some time. The part of the answer I wish JKR would have put on her site, is HOW can a patronus send a message? Is it meant to just act as a beeper, and you have to contact who ever sent the patronus to you to see what they want? It seems like it would be easier to have just send the "message" to begin with and forget the patronus altogether. Does that make since, or have I just not completely woken up yet? From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 15 15:09:57 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:09:57 -0000 Subject: Pulling the Wool Over our Eyes - Snape, DD, Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Marianne wrote: > snip > Add to this that the two characters who are held to be the brains of > the adult and kid outfits, DD and Hermione, are steadfast in their > trust in Snape. What if JKR is setting them, and us, up for a fall and > > Snape is really double-crossing DD? > > Potioncat: > I've often wondered if Hermione knows something about Snape that she > isn't telling. Did she learn something in the Vampire Essay or did she > learn something while at 12GP or even from "Hogwarts, A History"? She > has been steadfast in her support in spite of his treatment of her. Marianne: I've never been a Vampire!Snape fan, so I don't think that's the source of Hermione's trust. However, she places so much emphasis on book knowledge that it seems likely she's found something from a reliable source that fits in with her knowledge that DD, for whatever reason, trusts Snape. And that's enough for Hermione. > Marianne: > > Would that be a big bang or a big let-down? Would people find it > > further evidence of Snape's mystery and complexity as a character? > > Or would it be a disappointment? > > Potioncat: > For myself, who gets lost in good books and wanders around in them, I > would feel as betrayed as DD would. And once I stepped out of the book, > I'd have a "Wow, she pulled one over on me!" reaction. I'm sure others > would have the "Yes! I knew it!" reaction. The same will be true of > Percy. I'll feel very sad if there is no reunion of the Weasleys. Marianne: I'd like Percy to snap out of it, and come to his senses. I don't for a moment think he's a spy for DD within the Ministry, nor do I think he's a budding DE. I think he is truly caught up in his own ambition and feels he's got to prove himself in a respected, acceptable career path. I fear that he will realize how much family really means to him, once one of them has been lost in the coming battle. Marianne, full of cheery thoughts this morning From yellows at aol.com Fri Jul 15 15:12:38 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:12:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQ Poll Answered!! Message-ID: <7e.6d7b9cbf.30092c66@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132862 P O S S I B L E S P O I L E R ? In a message dated 7/15/2005 7:06:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Aisbelmon at hotmail.com writes: The Memebrs of the order communicate via........ .... ..... ..... ....... .... wait for it....... ... enough spoiler space????? Patronuses. BriefChronicles now: What is this? Is this an actual spoiler, or is it a theory? If it's a spoiler, I'm not sure I was given enough warning. "Wait for it" doesn't tell me I'm about to read a spoiler. I thought it was just something exciting. But this sounds more like a theory. Is there an actual source to back this up? Have I missed yet another leak? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 15 15:14:53 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:14:53 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132863 When JKR answered the poll question, she mentions that she is surprised that this question won because the answer can be found in Goblet of Fire. I don't have the book on me and I was wondering if anyone knew where in GoF it can be found. Thanks! Rachael 13 hours to go! From yellows at aol.com Fri Jul 15 15:24:54 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:24:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQ Poll Answered!! Message-ID: <74.57c529d5.30092f46@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132864 In a message dated 7/15/2005 11:12:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, YellowS writes: P O S S I B L E S P O I L E R ? In a message dated 7/15/2005 7:06:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Aisbelmon at hotmail.com writes: The Memebrs of the order communicate via........ .... ..... ..... ....... .... wait for it....... ... enough spoiler space????? Patronuses. BriefChronicles now: What is this? Is this an actual spoiler, or is it a theory? If it's a spoiler, I'm not sure I was given enough warning. "Wait for it" doesn't tell me I'm about to read a spoiler. I thought it was just something exciting. But this sounds more like a theory. Is there an actual source to back this up? Have I missed yet another leak? BriefChronicles again: lol :) Oh, now that I check the site, I see what this meant. I should have understood from the subject line. Pardon me. I don't think this really counts as a spoiler, does it? JKR says herself that this information is from GoF. :) Sorry for the confusion! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 15 08:43:05 2005 From: philippajrice at yahoo.co.uk (philippajrice) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:43:05 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132865 I really don't think Petunia has magical powers. I think the reason she hated her sister so much was because she was jealous. JKR has already said that no wizard can have less magic than any other wizard unless they are a squib (which Petunia is not because her parents are muggles)the person who uses magic late in life is Mrs Figg. Shes the only one old enough for it to be 'late in life' Having said that, there is going to be more in the story about Petunia. I can't really imagine what that's going to be if its not related to magical powers. Maybe Voldemort tried to kill everyone in Harrys family so that he would have no blood relatives to live with, and the story of how she escaped is in the next book? I don't know, but its definetly Mrs Figg who uses powers late in life. Probably the last thing she does before she dies. Philippa From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 15:27:42 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715152742.76462.qmail@web32714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132866 rachaelmcadams wrote: When JKR answered the poll question, she mentions that she is surprised that this question won because the answer can be found in Goblet of Fire. I don't have the book on me and I was wondering if anyone knew where in GoF it can be found. Thanks! Rachael 13 hours to go! Lynn: "He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird." (UK p. 486) This is where Harry brings Dumbledore to Crouch Sr. and they find Krum stunned. Harry asked if he should go get someone and is told no. What I found interesting is when she said each patronus is unique and cannot be replicated by anyone else. So, is there some unique characteristic about each one (Harry's stag has 3 prong antlers but someone else's stag only has 2 prong) or is each a separate unique animal thing, i.e. only Harry has a stag or Hermione an otter? Inquiring minds, Lynn (7 hours, 32 minutes) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 13:46:34 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:46:34 -0000 Subject: How did Fawkes' feathers end up in LV and HP's wands? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132867 I was thinking this morning about the fact that Fawkes provided the feathers for both LV and HP's wands, and I began to wonder how this came about. At first it seemed like a trivial matter but I soon realized that this has the potential for much more. Now, according to JKR's answer to the FAQ poll question, Dumbledore's patronus is the Phoenix. I think we have to conclude that Dumbledore came to possess Fawkes before he provided the feathers for the wands. I doubt that Ollivander first had access to Fawkes and then said "Hey Dumbledore, why don't you take this bird, no one seems to be matching up with the wands I made from his feathers." Possible, but doubtful. So let's say that DD gave Ollivander two feathers and asked him to make wands. Did he know that the people who had good results with those wands would be special? Did he ask Ollivander to let him know whenever anyone matched one of those wands? Why did he use two different types of wood? Did Prof DD know that young Tom Riddle was in possession of a wand made from his phoenix? Or did he not even have Fawkes at that time (which, as I said above, I doubt)? What does it mean that for some 50 years the other wand sat in Ollivander's shop collecting dust? Does LV know that his wand is made from DD's phoenix? Does this give DD some sort of leverage over LV that makes him the one wizard who LV fears? Whew. Catching my breath. I hope this is explored in HBP! - davenclaw, who stupidly pre-ordered the book from Amazon and whose inconsiderate friend scheduled his post-wedding party for Saturday, meaning that he won't see the book till late Saturday night, almost 24 hours after everyone else... From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 13:56:09 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:56:09 -0000 Subject: Is there really such a thing as Disapparating? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132868 I'm beginning to wonder about the nature of Apparating. Specifically, do people instantly appear in the new location after disappearing from the previous location, or is there some sort of state of limbo in between? Because it seems to me that unless there is a state of limbo, there is really no distinction between apparating and disapparating - they are essentially the exact same thing, but from different perspectives (whether you are referring to where they are leaving or where they are arriving). Much the same way that driving from home to work is both coming (from home) and going (to work) at the same time. But the way that JKR refers to them, it is as if they are really two separate events, as though you first concentrate on disapparating from where you are, and then once you've disapparated, you have to focus on where you want to go, and then you apparate. What happens if you get struck by something at the split second that you are disapparating? Can you be unconscious while "in limbo" and lost? Or is this simply a matter of imprecise speech, and there is only one act? - davenclaw From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 14:22:25 2005 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:22:25 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. Doing a quick search on usenet turns up these as the questions for the FAQ poll: 1. Will Harry continue to learn Occlumency, whether with Snape or somebody else, in 'Half-Blood Prince?' 2. Is that the Pensieve on the U.S. cover, or something else? 3. So how DO the members of the Order of the Phoenix communicate with each other? So, yeah. I'd say it's really, really clear that we'll have answers for the other two tomorrow. (Woo!) -- Ernest From momy424 at aol.com Fri Jul 15 14:40:50 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:40:50 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132870 vmonte wrote: > Harry Potter Questions > > 11. Who is inside Harry? Is there a bit of Tom Riddle inside > Harry? Well since Riddle is Voldemort and we know now that some of his powers were transferred (Parseltongue as example) it stands to reason that this is true already > 12. Will Harry eventually be able to do magic without a wand? Harry has done magic without a wand many times including before he knew what he was. He has done since in PoA, when he "blew up" Aunt Marge, it was not with a wand, but with his overwhelming feelings of anger Momy424 From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 15:36:37 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:36:37 -0000 Subject: Patronus (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: <20050715152742.76462.qmail@web32714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > What I found interesting is when she said each patronus is unique and cannot be replicated by anyone else. So, is there some unique characteristic about each one (Harry's stag has 3 prong antlers but someone else's stag only has 2 prong) or is each a separate unique animal thing, i.e. only Harry has a stag or Hermione an otter? I don't think there are enough distinct animal types for every person to have their own animal. I rather think that the patronus is almost like a particular instance of that animal. So two people might have Cocker Spanial patronuses but they are different in the way that two Cocker Spaniels are different. On the other hand, that still opens the door for confusion. What if both Tonks and McGonnagall have cat patronuses? It might be hard to tell the difference, given that they are made of silvery mist! The other possibility is that she really is only talking in the context of the story she is telling - meaning that we will never see two characters with the same animal for a Patronus, and who really cares if it's "possible" in the wizarding world - that's the rule as far as the books are concerned. That may be a more realistic explanation. - davenclaw, who is still mad that he has to wait another 36 hours instead of another 12.5 to read HBP... From gretchnky at aol.com Fri Jul 15 14:46:11 2005 From: gretchnky at aol.com (gretchnky at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:46:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's happy thought (was Order Communication) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132872 monzaba at poczta.onet.pl writes: My guesses for Sev's happy thought: 1. Graduation from Hogwarts ("No more school! No more Marauders!") 2. Some professional achievement in potions ("I made it! I made it!") 3. "Black's dead, yes!" I'd like to add guess #4...The feelings he used to get when Lily would stand up for him back in the day. I'm sure it happened more than once. Gretchnky From aisha1978 at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 15 15:47:29 2005 From: aisha1978 at bellsouth.net (tigga1978) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:47:29 -0000 Subject: Theory about Pensieves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132873 Hi, This might seem off the wall, but I have a theory about pensieve memories, relating to the scientific theories of how we form memories. I'm in cognitive science/artificial intelligence, so bear with me. Though scientists aren't sure how memories are formed and kept in the brain, the research we have about long term memories suggests a few things: 1. Over time, details of memories are "forgotten." The brain may or may not store memories in full detail or as a "framework" with key events that help a person remember the details. 2. Memories are biased by our past experience and by perspective. Based on these theories, I wonder how *factual* pensieve memories really are. Rather than coming from an omnipotent perspective, pensive memories are from the perspective of the wizard. Remember, Harry followed Snape through the memory because he could only see what Snape remembered. Therefore, I assert that pensieve memories are biased and we cannot depend on a pensieve memory to give us a factual account of an event. We would only have a semi-factual account if we viewed several pensieve memories of the same event. For example, Snape hated the Marauders. In his memories, their actions may have been exaggerated because of his feelings for them. Would James' pensieve memory of the same event play the same way? I don't think so. That's just my theory. I think if Harry does end up viewing the events of GH in a pensieve, it should be the memories of someone he trusts. tigga1978 From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 16:19:18 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:19:18 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132874 I vmonte wrote: Harry Potter Questions 11. Who is inside Harry? Is there a bit of Tom Riddle inside Harry? Momy424: Well since Riddle is Voldemort and we know now that some of his powers were transferred (Parseltongue as example) it stands to reason that this is true already vmonte: 12. Will Harry eventually be able to do magic without a wand? Momy424: Harry has done magic without a wand many times including before he knew what he was. He has done since in PoA, when he "blew up" Aunt Marge, it was not with a wand, but with his overwhelming feelings of anger vmonte again: 11. I'm not talking about receiving magical abilities which we already know that he got. I'm talking about a Harry that may be carrying around a piece or all of Tom's soul. I also realize that LV and Tom are the same person but I also think that Tom became something else after he went through whatever process he did to become immortal. Remember that LV is almost like a parasite. He can live inside other people/animals. Perhaps he became immortal by entering another creature that is immortal (dementor?). During GH LV was ripped from his body. Is it possible that what was left of his humanity entered baby Harry? Who knows? 12. Yes, I've read the books too. I'm talking about directed magic not magic that develops from strong emotions. I'm talking about controlled, calm, and purposeful magic. Sorry if I was not clear enough in my post. Vivian From jenneferp at muzak.com Fri Jul 15 16:19:55 2005 From: jenneferp at muzak.com (jenzajlp) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:19:55 -0000 Subject: HBP Theories (just for fun) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132875 Here's what I'm proposing for Book 6 - these are just for fun, I didn't enter the contest. But I've loved reading everyone's theories and look forward to seeing what we get right and what Jo surprises us with! *Snape played an integral role in saving Harry that fateful night. It was not the elixer of life that was given to Harry as some have predicted, but rather Snape's potion that `puts a stopper in 'death'. He arrived before Voldemort that evening with a warning and the potion. James didn't believe Snape's warning, but Lily did. It was the combination of this potion along with Lily's charm that saved Harry. *Percy will either die saving a family member (my bet is Ron or the twins), or he will come to his senses and beg for forgiveness after one of the Weasly clan is killed in the war. *Tonks will be captured and/or killed when her clumsiness gives her away at an inopportune moment. *There is a spy within the Order, but it will be a member that has only been mentioned briefly (i.e. not Kingsley, Dung, Tonks, Lupin, etc.). Maybe one of the others that came to pick up Harry at the beginning of OotP. *Ginny will reveal her animagus form (a cat). This may not be until Book 7, though. *Fred and George's role in the war will be important and before the end of the series, Mrs. Weasley will express how proud of them she is. *The Half-Blood Prince will be introduced as one of the portraits in Hogwarts (grabbed onto this from finwitch's post ? I think it's a brilliant idea). *There will be another Basilisk, possibly created from Hagrid's hens and Trevor the toad. *There will be multiple deaths on both sides ? this is a war, and there will be many casualties. However, on the `good' side, I think there will only be one main character death and several secondary and tertiary deaths (i.e. Order members, parents of students, etc.). *My best bet on the main character death is Dumbledore, only because he is featured prominently on every cover except for the UK Adult version. I predict he'll die at the end after he has taught Harry most of what he needs to know. *We'll get most of the backstory of the `fateful night' in this book, but not the magical key as to why Voldie did not die. That will be saved for book 7, which will be an action-based book focused mainly on the war. Jenza From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 16:46:32 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:46:32 -0000 Subject: ATT!!: PETUNIA THE WITCH! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132876 Dilia wrote: I have strong feelings about Petunia being a former witch. Vivian: Yes, I think that Petunia is the witch that will gain powers late in life. JKR once mentioned that there was a character that would gain powers late in life. It's got to be Petunia. Dilia: You make an excellent point, Vivian; notwithstanding, what do you think about the possibilities of Dudley being the one who gains powers late in life? Seeing that he is a half blood wizard. Vivian again: Sunday 15 August 2004 J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival Is Aunt Petunia a Squib? "Good question. No, she is not, but?[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but?[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet." Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye? "No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least that you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don't get a lot of Dudley in book six?very few lines. I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter]." Vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 17:44:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:44:12 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132877 Vmonte wrote: > Harry Potter Questions > 7. Is there something in Snape's worst memory that Snape does not > want Dumbledore to know? Alla: I do want to know the answers to all your questions, but I am also dying to know the answers to three questions which won on Leaky Cauldron and which Melissa Anelli ( I apologise if I mispelled her name) promised to ask JKR during their interview, if they won't be answered in HBP. I think the question which won asks about objectivity of the memories in the pensieve. Hm, imagine if the answer would be no :-) I mean, I certainly convinced myself that the answer is yes, but no, would be a nice surprise. I think the other question is about the origins of the Veil and the other one is about who else was presented in GH that night. Of course, she may refuse to answer any of those, but if she does say refuse to answer the Pensieve question, that would certainly be interesting. Alla. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 17:45:02 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:45:02 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132878 1. Who will be the most major character to die? The most major character to truly die will be Dumbledore, but Harry will go behind the veil at the end and everybody will think he is dead. However, he will have some plan up his sleeve to come back. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? A new character. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I'm going to agree with the one about her parents being Squibs. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The lion guy > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Moody > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A stlylized version of the pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? No idea...have to reread OOP to find out how many were possible. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. There will be a major fire at Hogwarts due to Death Eater attack, probably the same attack in which Dumbledore dies. See also prediction #5. 2. Sirius will come back. 3. Petunia was involved with Sirius when they were teenagers. (This is my completely frivolous one. This is sort of my pet ludicrous ship.) 4. Lucius Malfoy will rebel against Voldemort's leadership after escaping prison. 5. "Dumbledore's Army" will barely save the day in the climactic attack on Hogwarts. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 17:02:19 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:02:19 -0000 Subject: Theory about Pensieves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132879 tigga1978 wrote: > > Based on these theories, I wonder how *factual* pensieve memories > really are. Rather than coming from an omnipotent perspective, > pensive memories are from the perspective of the wizard. Remember, > Harry followed Snape through the memory because he could only see what > Snape remembered. Therefore, I assert that pensieve memories are > biased and we cannot depend on a pensieve memory to give us a factual > account of an event. We would only have a semi-factual account if we > viewed several pensieve memories of the same event. For example, > Snape hated the Marauders. In his memories, their actions may have > been exaggerated because of his feelings for them. Would James' > pensieve memory of the same event play the same way? I don't think so. zgirnius: This is a neat theory! I wonder, though...does Snape really remember all the stuff Harry sees in that scene? Snape is off in a corner going over his DADA paper for much of the scene, while the Marauders hang out nearby. Does Snape really remember exactly each time James caught the Snitch, and Pattigrew's reaction each time? Seems unlikely. Of course, maybe the Pensieve can access memories Snape has that he never consciously had (as he was within earshot of the events, and so heard them even if he was not listening) and then "construct" the appropriate pictures for the user to see, or something like that? And exactly who said/did what to whom WOULD be colored by Snape's conscious recollection of them, and thus biasedas you point out. From jmnabers at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 16:45:07 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:45:07 -0000 Subject: Penseive and Memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132880 I've been thinking a lot about this lately, I think because of what looks like a penseive on the new cover. Here's my question: Does a penseive show you the memory as it existed immediately after you first saw it, or does it show the memory as it exists now in your head? I guess what I'm thinking is that memories are notoriously unreliable in some ways. They aren't static, fixed things. For example, lots of psycologists do studies of people's memories (for example after 9/11) and find that they change over the course of time. So, the follow-up---can a pensieve be "wrong" and show a memory that isn't quite right? And what would that mean for the characters who act upon those memories? Jennifer From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 18:10:14 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:10:14 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. > She expresses surprise at that and says the other two questions have > such interesting answers! Now, what were those questions??? She also > says they will be answered in book 6 which is, I think, what most of > us thought in the first place. > > I thought the answer to this was pretty interesting. The Order > members use their Patronuses. DD is the only who knows how to use > them this way and he taught the spell to the members. She gives some > other information too. I don't like that at all. based on how much they are talked up as being difficult, only a handleful of wizards should be able to use them. Hell, that means, practically every lightside adult wizard we know of in the books can use a patronus. It makes Harry a lot less special if everyone can do it. phoenixgod2000 From aisha1978 at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 15 18:04:23 2005 From: aisha1978 at bellsouth.net (tigga1978) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:04:23 -0000 Subject: Theory about Pensieves/Pensieve's memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132882 Zgirnius wrote: > > > Of course, maybe the Pensieve can access memories Snape has that he > never consciously had (as he was within earshot of the events, and so > heard them even if he was not listening) and then "construct" the > appropriate pictures for the user to see, or something like that? And > exactly who said/did what to whom WOULD be colored by Snape's conscious > recollection of them, and thus biased as you point out. Aisha: I like the idea that the Pensieve can access and "construct" memories he never consciously had. That makes up for some of what Harry sees when Snape would have been looking away or not consciously interacting with James and the crew. Jennifer wrote: > > So, the follow-up---can a pensieve be "wrong" and show a memory that > isn't quite right? And what would that mean for the characters who act > upon those memories?> Aisha: Like I said in my post, I think a pensieve can be "wrong." Will be interesting to see if/how JK deals with this From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 15 18:16:14 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:16:14 -0000 Subject: Patronus (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132883 davenclaw wrote: > I don't think there are enough distinct animal types for every > person to have their own animal. I rather think that the patronus > is almost like a particular instance of that animal. So two people > might have Cocker Spanial patronuses but they are different in the > way that two Cocker Spaniels are different. On the other hand, that > still opens the door for confusion. What if both Tonks and > McGonnagall have cat patronuses? It might be hard to tell the > difference, given that they are made of silvery mist! Potioncat: Good questions! Well, do I remember correctly that not everyone can even conjure a Patronus? But the bigger point being that you conjure one and only one Patronus, so you couldn't conjure up a stag if your Patronus was a cat. So someone couldn't "counterfit" a Patronus. I suppose if two Order members had cat Patronuses (Yeah, I like Patroni better too.) they would have to say "This is Minnie..." Of course, since only the Order members know how to do this, maybe none of them have the same Patronus type. Oh you know what would be fun? If we see Patronuses delivering messages in HBP but we aren't told which Order member it's from! Or we're given just a vague shape so we have to guess a bit... Potioncat From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Fri Jul 15 18:17:50 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:17:50 -0000 Subject: Order Communication - Mrs. Figg's anger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > JKR has answered the FAQ Poll. How doe the Order communicate? won. snipsnip ... > I will presume however, that neither Hagrid nor Mrs. Figg > can....although it would be interesting if DD taught Hagrid how to. > > Something new to discuss just as time is running out... > Potioncat Of course! That's why Mrs. Figg was so angry with Mundungus - he might not have been able to hold off the dementors, but he could produce a patronus to summon help! The tension is getting to me... Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 18:15:31 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:15:31 -0000 Subject: Pensieve and Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmnabers" wrote: > Here's my question: Does a penseive show you the memory as it existed > immediately after you first saw it, or does it show the memory as it > exists now in your head? My guess is that the Pensieve is one of those extraordinarily useful items that an author creates for the purpose of the story. Though it may not fit into how memories actually work, my suspicion is that the Pensieve is really intended to be as good as a video camera - recording things that the person probably wasn't paying attention to, and showing events as they actually happened. I somehow suspect that if it weren't for the Pensieve reminding Snape of exactly what happened that day, he might have scrubbed his insult of Lily from his memory by now. - davenclaw From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 18:29:28 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:29:28 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jo's other poll questions In-Reply-To: <410-220057515144624733@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132887 > Chancie: The part of the answer I > wish JKR would have put on her site, is HOW can a patronus send > a message? Is it meant to just act as a beeper, and you have to contact > who ever sent the patronus to you to see what they want? It seems > like it would be easier to have just send the "message" to begin > with and forget the patronus altogether. Does that make since, > or have I just not completely woken up yet? Finwitch: Well, Dumbledore DID use this method, sending a message to Hagrid in GOF. As to why this - well, this sort of message would be quite hard if not impossible to intercept or forge. After all - as Patronus' form is unique to each caster, no one can forge it under someone's name. Also, as casting a Patronus requires that happy thought - I don't see how anyone could be *forced* to send a faulty message by this method. Besides, most of them would be likely to use their wand to fight instead -- and the patronus would do that, too... It's just perfect. Granted, we don't know how the Patronus carries a message, but for me it's enough they do. It's form says immediately who sent it at least... the method MIGHT have something to do with Legilimency. Talking could be overheard and you don't want that to happen. Apparently, Harry's own, first corporeal patronus did seem to tell him that he was *Prongs*... And yes, I do think just about any wizard can (learn to) cast corporeal Patronus - so long as they're not near Dementors. That's the hard part, conjuring up a happy thought when you're under Dementor attack. Finwitch From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 18:54:07 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:54:07 -0000 Subject: Questions I want answered in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132888 Alla wrote: I do want to know the answers to all your questions, but I am also dying to know the answers to three questions which won on Leaky Cauldron and which Melissa Anelli ( I apologise if I mispelled her name) promised to ask JKR during their interview, if they won't be answered in HBP. I think the question which won asks about objectivity of the memories in the pensieve. Hm, imagine if the answer would be no :-) I mean, I certainly convinced myself that the answer is yes, but no, would be a nice surprise. I think the other question is about the origins of the Veil and the other one is about who else was presented in GH that night. Of course, she may refuse to answer any of those, but if she does say refuse to answer the Pensieve question, that would certainly be interesting. vmonte: Yes, these are great questions! I keep thinking of the turban dream Harry had. Remember the part where Draco turns into Snape? It's when Harry sees Snape (who has a high pitched laugh--like Voldemort) that he immediately sees a green flash (GH anyone?). Maybe Snape was there. Was this Snape's happiest moment? (I'm joking here.) I wonder if Snape was there? From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:05:39 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:05:39 -0000 Subject: Patronus (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132889 Potioncat wrote: Oh you know what would be fun? If we see Patronuses delivering messages in HBP but we aren't told which Order member it's from! Or we're given just a vague shape so we have to guess a bit... vmonte: Funny that we know what DD's, Hermione's, Cho's, and Harry's patronus are but we do not know what Snape's, Neville's, McG's, and Ron's patronus are. Is a patronus always an animal? Do we know what Neville's patronus is (did I forget)? I would make it Harry rather than an animal. I can see why we haven't seen Snape's and Neville's since they are probably important to the plot line, but why not Ron's? Is Ron's patronus a lion? Are the Weasley's decended from Godric? Vivian From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:08:05 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:08:05 -0000 Subject: How did Fawkes' feathers end up in LV and HP's wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132890 "davenclaw" : > So let's say that DD gave Ollivander two feathers and asked him to > make wands. Did he know that the people who had good results with > those wands would be special? Finwitch: Well, out of Unicorn Hair, Dragon heart-string and Phoenix Feathers - I think that Phoenix-core is strongest-- or, at least, something that few and great wizards have. Phoenix is also rare, and their feathers are few - well yes, I'd say that Phoenix wand-core DOES say something. Did he ask Ollivander to let him know > whenever anyone matched one of those wands? Finwitch: If he didn't he has another method to know - Fawkes. Which also gives a thought about him and Tom the memory in the CoS to me. Can Dumbledore keep an eye of someone who has a wand made of Fawkes' feather? (He DOES say he's kept a closer eye on Harry than Harry can imagine -- trough Harry's wand, perhaps?) Why did he use two > different types of wood? Finwitch: Why would he make two identical wands? So far as we know, Ollivander has made at least 3 wands with Phoenix-feather: Yew (Tom Riddle/Voldemort), Holly (Harry Potter) and Maple. (Some other phoenix gave this feather. Maybe that Quidditch team sold some the feathers of their Phoenix-mascot...). The Maple wand is probably still there to be sold. Maybe Neville buys that one. Did Prof DD know that young Tom Riddle was > in possession of a wand made from his phoenix? Well, of course he did. Just as he knows that *HARRY* has the other one. If not Ollivander then Fawkes told him (and if Harry&Tom can talk to Snakes, maybe Dumbledore can talk to Phoenix the same way). Or did he not even > have Fawkes at that time (which, as I said above, I doubt)? Dumbledore has had Fawkes for quite some time, I believe... they ARE very faithful, after all, and Fawkes was *old* when Harry met him in CoS. Curious how Fawkes seemed to *wait* until Harry was there to move on. Maybe - just maybe - Tom Riddle also witnessed Fawkes the Phoenix burn 50 years earlier. (as if Fawkes wanted the wand bearing his feather to be present when he did it or something). What > does it mean that for some 50 years the other wand sat in > Ollivander's shop collecting dust? Finwitch: Who says it did? All we know that Fawkes has given two feathers. One for Tom (bought about 50 years before Harry bought his, yes) and one for Harry - but not at what interval this happened. The second feather may have been donated during the prophecy, or any time afterwards as well. Does LV know that his wand is > made from DD's phoenix? Finwitch: That's hard to say, but I think so. Does this give DD some sort of leverage > over LV that makes him the one wizard who LV fears? Finwitch: Quite possibly. At least, didn't Harry hear Dumbledore's voice trough the song when the wands fought each other? Where did Fawkes' song come from? I think that in a way, Fawkes is *still* connected to those feathers and that's how Dumbledore keeps a close watch on Harry. (and Voldemort for that matter). Finwitch From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:17:02 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Fawkes' feathers end up in LV and HP's wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715191702.78397.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132891 Finwitch ...edited... > Can Dumbledore keep an eye of someone who has a wand > made of Fawkes' > feather? (He DOES say he's kept a closer eye on > Harry than Harry can > imagine -- trough Harry's wand, perhaps?) But Harry only got his wand when he was 11, Dumbledore must have been watching him all the years before. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:19:06 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:19:06 -0000 Subject: Is there really such a thing as Disapparating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132892 "davenclaw" wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder about the nature of Apparating. > Specifically, do people instantly appear in the new location after > disappearing from the previous location, or is there some sort of > state of limbo in between? Because it seems to me that unless there > is a state of limbo, there is really no distinction between > apparating and disapparating - they are essentially the exact same > thing, but from different perspectives (whether you are referring to > where they are leaving or where they are arriving).-- > > But the way that JKR refers to them, it is as if they are really > two separate events.. Finwitch: I think they ARE one and same, and only perspective changes. They seem to be different when Hermione says things like you can't apparate or disapparate in Hogwarts... meaning that both directions are prevented. There could be shields that permit apparating a place, but not disapparating (like a fish-trap), possibly even some that prevent apparating but not disapparating. (useful if you need a place where none can suddenly enter, but you can LEAVE quickly - if you have need to see who's coming but don't care who's leaving...). Of course, most places have neither. Finwitch From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:33:06 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:33:06 -0000 Subject: How did Fawkes' feathers end up in LV and HP's wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132893 davenclaw: > What > > does it mean that for some 50 years the other wand sat in > > Ollivander's shop collecting dust? > Finwitch: > > Who says it did? All we know that Fawkes has given two feathers. One > for Tom (bought about 50 years before Harry bought his, yes) and one > for Harry - but not at what interval this happened. The second > feather may have been donated during the prophecy, or any time > afterwards as well. Oooh, great point. Perhaps DD had Ollivander make another wand from Fawkes after Riddle became LV, specifically so that it would be a "weapon" that could contend with LV given the right possessor. And DD probably knew perfectly well that Harry would be the one, given the prophecy and the events at GH. You'd think that Ollivander would have gone straight for that wand, but I guess you'd want to see what happens with other wands first just in case he hasn't really developed the connection to LV that DD has suspected. Sometimes I wonder just how important the specific wand is to the wizard. (I know there was a long thread about this recently.) There are many cases of a wizard pulling off a fine bit of magic with someone else's wand - I think Pettigrew uses LV's wand to kill Cedric (not positive), and we know Barty Jr. used Harry's to set off the Dark Mark. - davenclaw (who can now breathe since he found out that UPS, through special arrangement, is delivering directly to US post offices for mail delivery. When I got that UPS tracking number in Amazon, I thought I wouldn't see my book till Monday!) From kkersey at swbell.net Fri Jul 15 19:56:16 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:56:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY - a most intriguing PARADOX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132894 Out on the bay, Elisabet grips the oars tightly as she attempts to manuever a rowboat toward the shore. There, she can make out the dim outline of the Royal George, where she hopes to take refuge from the storm. The small craft and its lone occupant have so far been able to ride the great swells, but the Hurricane is fast overtaking the erratic progress of the storm-tossed boat. Elisabet glances around the bay, hoping for a tow. Instead, she catches sight of a scrap of parchment, blown across the prow of the boat: "[132808] I think that Petunia is the witch that will gain powers late in life...." With a desparate glance at the storm-darkened sky, she whips out her wand. "Accio Vivian!" "What the...! Where am I?!" A furious Vivian thumps down in the bottom of the rowboat. "Well, don't just sit there, grab an oar!" demands Elisabet. Vivian stays seated. "Well, if you'd rather bail..." offers Elisabet, as she fishes out of the water one of the many empty margarita glasses that apparently have been washed overboard from one of the more comfortably appointed vessals. "You know, I need all the help I can get to keep this thing afloat." (Was that sneer on her companion's face directed at her boat, or at the Rookwood Thong that that had become entangled on an oarlock? Amazing, the things the storm had dredged up from the depths of the Bay.) "Welcome aboard the Paradox! It's a most intriguing vessel, if I do say so myself." "Yeah, you do say so *yourself*. And, by the way, I did *not* say *that* myself. Some nerve you've got, dragging me here against my will and putting words into my mouth!" At this, Elisabet's ears pinken a little. "Well, it's not without precedent, I'm sure..." she mutters. Vivian glowers. "Anyway, hear me out. The Paradox is a Petunia theory. You might like it. OK, so it's a *little* light in the cannon department..." By now, Vivian seems to have decided that a little bailing might be in order, since she's not willing to go down with a ship before she even knows what it is. She grabs the margarita glass and starts scooping. "Now," continues Elisabet, "you may remember I first proposed this theory a while back, February 28th, actually.[2] The basic idea is that that Petunia's birthday is on February 29th." She beams trimphantly at Vivian. "So what?" Vivian is now using the margarita glass to dislodge the Rookwood thong trailing alongside the boat. "So what? So, she's born on Leap Day! Which only happens every four years - so it takes a bit of a while to work up to eleven birthdays. Forty-four years, in fact. JKR said on her website that "everyone who has shown magical ability before their eleventh birthday" will get invited to Hogwarts. 'Eleventh Birthday.' She could have said 'before they're eleven years old' but she chose to say, 'eleventh birthday' instead." "And that's *all* that's keeping this boat afloat?" asks Vivian with alarm. "Pretty much, yep. Don't stop bailing - or would you like to take an oar? Anyway, back in February, Valky did some maths[4] which showed that Petunia might be in the right age range. She also figured that, presuming that the Lexicon timeline is correct, Petunia should have had her birthday in 1996 - which is the year of the events of OOtP." As she speaks, the occupants of the Paradox become aware of a great shadow looming over them. Looking up, they see it is not a storm cloud, but a great hulk of a ship. The words "BIG BANG DESTROYER" are barely legible through the driving rain. "Oh, I was afraid of this..." Elisabet admits. "On the one hand, it's a great little plot twist. Gilbert and Sullivan thought so anyway. But on the other, the action would happen off-screen, presumably while Harry's at school." "*Definitely* while Harry's at school, if Valky's math is right," put in Vivian, who had stopped bailing to read the scroll. "Right. Or in an epilogue to the story, if we wait for the next leap day. Not much bang there, either way." "Well, I have always said that I think Petunia will be a late bloomer. Just not *that* late." Vivian is scanning the side of the destroyer, looking for a ladder? Surely she's not thinking of jumping ship! "There's more to that JKR quote, too -" Elisabet says, trying to catch Vivian's attention. Vivian interrupts with a flick of her wand, and silvery letters begin to form mid-air: "...however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life..." "Is this what you are talking about?" she inquires. "Of course, I too think that she's referring to Petunia. But you don't need a special birthday to have a Magic!Petunia theory. By the way," Vivian continues, glancing up at the Big Bang Destroyer, "when Petunia does do that magic, it's got to bang!" "Yes! Thank you - that's exactly the quote I was looking for. However, I think we may already have seen Petunia do magic." "If you're talking about how clean her kitchen is, that is easily explained by her obsessive-compulsive behaviours," counters Vivian. "She obviously has control issues. Besides, I don't think keeping your kitchen faucet handles shiny exactly counts for 'desperate circumstances'. Not to mention it being about as un-bangy as you could get." "No, actually I'm talking about her blowing up Aunt Marge." "That does it! Get me off of this boat! Harry blew up Aunt Marge, and you know it!" Elisabet tries to settle her down - "Sit down, Vivian! You're going to capsize the boat!" Suddenly the ELKINS AVENGED pulls alongside. Faith is leaning against the rail, calling out to Vivian, "You tell her, girl!" "Really though!" Elisabet goes on, "we assume it's Harry, of course, even Harry assumes he did it. But he didn't do it on purpose; it was the kind of uncontrolled, unconscious magic he did as a child, before being trained at Hogwarts. How often do we see him doing that after he started school? Hmmm? And besides, Petunia's got a great motive for intervening at that point." "You're not suggesting that Petunia is defending her sister's honor?" a shocked Faith gasps. "No, although Marge's remarks about Lily's gene pool are dangerously close to condemning Petunia and Dudley, too, Marge's assurances to the contrary aside... No, Petunia might be upset by what Marge is saying, but that is nothing compared to what *Harry* is about to say. Think about it. Harry is about to tell Marge how his parents died. Petunia needs to stop that conversational topic - immediately. Desperate Circumstances, anyone?" "But wouldn't Petunia *know* whether she did the magic herself?" puts in Vivian. "Probably not. Harry didn't realize he was performing unconscious magic those times he ended up on the roof or freed the boa constrictor, for instance. Harry got blamed for magic that Dobby did in the house, so we can take Fudge's word for it that Harry did it this time either." Faith gives a little wave - "Ok then, what about the wine glass? Didn't Harry cause that to break?" "Well, maybe not. Think about what Marge was saying as that happened: 'If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be something wrong with the pup -' If Petunia is worried about possibly being magic herself, that might hit too close to home. Still," giving a nod to Faith, "you're most likely right on that one." "Hmmmm..." ponders Vivian, "Petunia has been spoiling and babying Dudley his whole life - perhaps she is afraid that if he gets upset he may show signs of becoming a wizard." "She'd be even more reason to fear his being a wizard if she had any reason to believe she might herself be magical. Not that the Paradox needs her to know one way or another, before that letter from Hogwarts arrives." Elisabet pats the side of the boat reassuringly. "Say, what does 'Paradox' stand for, anyway? Petunia's Anniversary Requires A Delayed Owl eXchange?" "Well, erm, it's not exactly an acronym, actually." Elisabet is rowing hard now. "Not an acronym! Is that even *allowed*? Oh, we'll be sunk for sure!" Vivian is bailing furiously now. "Well, it's not without precedent." ("Seems that I've heard that before," grumbles Vivian.) "It's a Literary Allusion. Pirates of Penzance. Anyway, there are plenty of theories around here that are not, strictly speaking, acronymized. The Narrative Ark. The Big Bang Destroyer. The..." "Those aren't even theories, they're modes of analysis!" interjects Vivian. Elisabet leaps out of the Paradox and begins securing her to a mooring at the dock. "Wait a minute, where are you going?!" demands Vivian. "I'm going to the Royal George. Come on, you don't think I'd try to ride out a hurricane in that thing, do you? Come along then, hot chocolates on me!" Elisabet, who hopes Vivian will not be too upset about being kidnapped for this post. [1] TBAY - Theory Bay. See the Fantastic Posts. [2]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125349 (And yes, I've changed my nickname since then. Too many Karens.) :-p [3]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/125370 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 19:56:16 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:56:16 -0000 Subject: Order Communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132895 phoenixgod2000 wrote: "I don't like that at all. based on how much they are talked up as being difficult, only a handleful of wizards should be able to use them. Hell, that means, practically every lightside adult wizard we know of in the books can use a patronus. It makes Harry a lot less special if everyone can do it." Del replies: Harry was special because of 3 combined particularities: 1. He could conjure a *corporeal* Patronus. 2. He did it at a very young age (13). 3. He managed it in the presence of real Dementors. But since we saw in OoP that several members of the DA managed to conjure Patronuses, I don't see what is so surprising or disappointing about the adult members of the Order being able to conjure Patronuses too. Del From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Jul 15 19:56:45 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:56:45 -0000 Subject: Chapter Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132896 P O S S I B L E S P O I L E R S --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" wrote: > I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter titles of HBP? > > It seems that there are many editorials on Mugglenet that are > right on! > > Any comments? > > > "Jessica" There's a Korean site selling HBP that has a list of chapter titles: http://www.gmarket.co.kr/challenge/neo_goods/goods .asp?goodscode=102929260 Very interesting titles, if accurate. "Birthday Surprises" being after Christmas suggests someone with a January birthday, such as Snape (Jan 9). Some of the other chapter titles are fairly suggestive, as well... --Arcum From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 20:11:16 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715201116.65686.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132897 P O S S I B L E S P O I L E R S > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" > wrote: > > I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter > titles of HBP? > > > > It seems that there are many editorials on > Mugglenet that are > > right on! > > > > Any comments? > > > > > > "Jessica" > > There's a Korean site selling HBP that has a list of > chapter titles: > > http://www.gmarket.co.kr/challenge/neo_goods/goods > .asp?goodscode=102929260 > > Very interesting titles, if accurate. "Birthday > Surprises" being after > Christmas suggests someone with a January birthday, > such as Snape (Jan > 9). Some of the other chapter titles are fairly > suggestive, as well... > > --Arcum Could any of you please send me the chapter tittles. I went to that site you wrote, but it's all in some strange language (Korean?) and I don't understand a word. Thanks Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Jul 15 20:16:27 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:16:27 -0000 Subject: Chapter Titles In-Reply-To: <20050715201116.65686.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > P > > O > > S > > S > > I > > B > > L > > E > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lebowjessica" > > wrote: > > > I haven't seen anyone mention seeing the chapter > > titles of HBP? > > > > > > It seems that there are many editorials on > > Mugglenet that are > > > right on! > > > > > > Any comments? > > > > > > > > > "Jessica" > > > > There's a Korean site selling HBP that has a list of > > chapter titles: > > > > http://www.gmarket.co.kr/challenge/neo_goods/goods .asp?goodscode=102929260 > > > > Very interesting titles, if accurate. "Birthday > > Surprises" being after > > Christmas suggests someone with a January birthday, > > such as Snape (Jan > > 9). Some of the other chapter titles are fairly > > suggestive, as well... > > > > --Arcum > > Could any of you please send me the chapter titles. I > went to that site you wrote, but it's all in some > strange language (Korean?) and I don't understand a > word. > The site is in Korean, but if you scroll halfway down, the chapter titles are in the middle of the page, and are all in English... --Arcum From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 20:25:30 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:25:30 -0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert -- Back Deluxe Cover of HBP Released In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132899 > > Rachael: > That knife can't be the knife that Sirius gave Harry because that > melted when they tried to pick the lock of the "love/heart" room. Finwitch: Or it did not. Harry just believed it did. (Just something coming to mind after watching Star Trek - like the pilot episode 'the cage' - or the two where Spock helps invalised Captain Pike go back to that forbidden planet). A very strong illusion about something happening that is. Maybe the knife didn't melt - but the door or whatever - caused Harry to believe so? Maybe he DID open it, and therefore was empowered against Voldemort without even KNOWING it? (because it's about subconcious and cannot be known conciously) Finwitch From alishak at spu.edu Fri Jul 15 21:11:54 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:11:54 -0000 Subject: Is there really such a thing as Disapparating? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132900 >davenclaw: > But the way that JKR refers to them, it is as if they are really > two separate events, as though you first concentrate on > disapparating from where you are, and then once you've disapparated, > you have to focus on where you want to go, and then you apparate. > What happens if you get struck by something at the split second that > you are disapparating? Can you be unconscious while "in limbo" and > lost? Or is this simply a matter of imprecise speech, and there is > only one act? > Alisha: I believe it's the same sort of difference as the one between imigrate and emigrate. One means to move /to/ a different country from your home country and one means to move /from/ your home country to a different country. To the person moving, they are always emigrating, to the person who lives in the country of destination, they are always imigrating. So to the wizard doing the apparating, they are always disapparating (leaving their current location), but to someone who sees them arrive, they are always apparating (arriving at the final location). -Alisha From ekrbdg at msn.com Fri Jul 15 21:24:42 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:24:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patronus (Was :Re: Order Communication) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132901 > vmonte: > Funny that we know what DD's, Hermione's, Cho's, and Harry's patronus > are but we do not know what Snape's, Neville's, McG's, and Ron's > patronus are. > > Is a patronus always an animal? I'm still holding out that if Snape's animagus isn't a bat then Snape's Patronus is a bat. Just one line that ties me to that but I'm holding out. GoF, Amer. Ed., pg. 566. (It's when Harry is telling Ron about how he tried to get to Dumbledore to take him to where Crouch and Krum were, the part just before Crouch was killed.) "...how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to the forest ? D'you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there? Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something." To me, it just sounds like one of those things we're going to look bakc on later and think, "We should have seen that coming ! Kimberly From kethlenda at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 21:51:52 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:51:52 -0000 Subject: Patronus and Snape (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132902 "...how fast d'you reckon he could've gotten down to the forest ? D'you > reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there? > > Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something." > > To me, it just sounds like one of those things we're going to look bakc on > later and think, "We should have seen that coming ! > > Kimberly He's compared to a bat in PS/SS as well. Quirrell says something about how useful it was to have Snape swooping about like an overgrown bat. Kelly L From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri Jul 15 21:54:49 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Jul 2005 21:54:49 -0000 Subject: Poll results for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1121464489.230.37133.w124@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132903 The following HPforGrownups poll is now closed. Here are the final results: POLL QUESTION: WHO IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE? (created by David Frankis): We have been hotly debating who the 'half blood prince' of the title of Book Six might be. There is a time-honoured way to settle this: hold a poll. After all, JKR has to abide by the will of the majority, doesn't she? ;-) Cast one vote. CHOICES AND RESULTS - Tom Riddle, 41 votes, 7.28% - Seamus Finnegan, 16 votes, 2.84% - Dean Thomas, 20 votes, 3.55% - Neville Longbottom, 16 votes, 2.84% - Trevor the Toad, 7 votes, 1.24% - Another Harry-era Hogwarts student, 19 votes, 3.37% - Dudley Dursley, 21 votes, 3.73% - Mark Evans, 13 votes, 2.31% - Albus Dumbledore, 19 votes, 3.37% - Rubeus Hagrid, 30 votes, 5.33% - Remus Lupin, 28 votes, 4.97% - Severus Snape, 22 votes, 3.91% - Gilderoy Lockhart, 2 votes, 0.36% - The next DADA teacher, 27 votes, 4.80% - Another Harry-era adult, 5 votes, 0.89% - James Potter, 14 votes, 2.49% - Another Marauder-era Hogwarts student, 4 votes, 0.71% - Grindelwald, 4 votes, 0.71% - Salazar Slytherin, 12 votes, 2.13% - Godric Gryffindor, 100 votes, 17.76% - Another founder-era person, 5 votes, 0.89% - Nearly Headless Nick, 1 votes, 0.18% - The Bloody Baron, 2 votes, 0.36% - A new character, 114 votes, 20.25% - Other (please post to explain choice), 21 votes, 3.73% INDIVIDUAL VOTES - Tom Riddle - rbfrey at hotmail.com - wright1000 at sbcglobal.net - Kalithja at msn.com - peaceful_protester1 at yahoo.com - mnaperrone at aol.com - pt4ever at yahoo.com - dunesayadina at yahoo.com - ziggy at zootsplace.com - shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com - mad_maxime at hotmail.com - isabelgarciag at hotmail.com - pollbuster1hpfgu at yahoo.com - etisme98 at yahoo.com - hpfgu_in_trouble at yahoo.com - GinnyWeasley31 at excite.com - moochy4ro at hotmail.com - evelyn_quirky at yahoo.com.au - m_warren17 at yahoo.com.au - ineskennes at yahoo.co.uk - wsherratt3338 at rogers.com - SMLyke at aol.com - lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk - birdgirlya333 at yahoo.ca - ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk - wickedkitty3 at yahoo.com - alina at distantplace.net - Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com - calimie_niphredil at yahoo.es - gwyneth521 at yahoo.com - delwynmarch at yahoo.com - starropal at hotmail.com - heretherebedragons at gmail.com - dragon_starz at hotmail.com - weasley_isourking at yahoo.com - Tori100186 at aol.com - sunflowerlaw at cox.net - 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Groups, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/ From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 21:59:12 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patronus and Snape (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715215912.5034.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132904 I think Snape Patronus ISN'T a bat, I mean he's a "nice" sort of guy, I wish that he gets a happier animal, a bat? that's just cruel. I think it will be a cute animal, like a French Poodle or something, cause deep down Severus has a golden heart. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doliesl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 22:12:31 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patronus and Snape (Was :Re: Order Communication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715221232.18746.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132905 Kelly: > He's compared to a bat in PS/SS as well. Quirrell says something about > how useful it was to have Snape swooping about like an overgrown bat. Well he's also been compared to a spider, hippogriff, rabbit, plant... d. who's wickedly satisfied at the true identity of HBP... From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 23:07:17 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:07:17 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: List Closing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132906 "Harry approached another door at random and pushed. It did not move. 'What's wrong?' said Hermione. 'It's . . . locked . . ." said Harry, throwing his weight at the door, but it didn't budge. 'This is it, then, isn't it?' said Ron excitedly, joining Harry in the attempt to force the door open. 'Bound to be.'" ******************* Yes, the door is locked. Sort of. The HPFGU main list is *closed* to posting for 85 hours so that everyone can read and digest the new canon! The list will reopen for posting on Tuesday, 19 July at 1:00 p.m. (British Summer Time). In other time zones: New Zealand - 20 July midnight Australia Eastern - 19 July 10 p.m. Australia Western - 19 July 8 p.m. Eastern Europe - 19 July 3 p.m. Central Europe - 19 July 2 p.m. Western Europe - 19 July noon Canada Atlantic - 19 July 9 a.m. Eastern U.S. - 19 July 8 a.m. Central U.S. - 19 July 7 a.m. Pacific U.S. - 19 July 5 a.m. The present spoiler policy will be lifted on the main HPFGU list when it reopens to posting. You can expect every post to have HBP spoilers, so if you have not read the HBP and do not want to read spoilers, DO NOT VISIT THE MAIN HPFGU LIST. SPOILER-FREE ZONE The OT-Chatter list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-OTChatter) has been designated as a spoiler-free zone, for the benefit of members of our community who will not have immediate access to HBP. Any post to this list containing HBP spoilers will be deleted and the poster will be placed on moderated status. Of course, discussion of release-night events and parties, and to announce that you've finished the book and are ready to chat (see below), is welcome on OTC. CHAT ROOM OPEN For those of you that can't wait to begin discussing HBP, the HPFGU chat room (see the link at the left side of the HPFGU page) will be open throughout the 85-hour list closure period. If you enter the chat room and find no one there, we suggest that you post to OT- Chatter inviting others to join you. If you have any questions, contact the list elves at HPforGrownups- owner at yahoogroups.com or contact any one of us. A skeleton crew will be on hand to assist you. The HPFGU List Elves From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 12:04:33 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:04:33 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: List Opening Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132907 Greetings from Hexquarters! The the list has now reopened to posting. Before you post, if you haven't looked at our posting rules lately, we strongly recommend that you take a refresher course, as we *will* be enforcing them! The rules are here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/Posting_Rules_14June2005.html And for those who are truly in a mad rush to post, here's a handy Posting Rules Cheat Sheet: 1. Observe Posting Limits. We are expecting record numbers of posts in the first few days following HBP release. We are asking members to try to limit their posts to three per day. Don't be a list hog. Excessive posting will be considered a violation of list rules, and your post may be deleted. 2. Combining. If you're responding to multiple posts on the same topic, please combine them. If you combine effectively, you won't have a problem with the posting limits. 3. Make a Canon Point. Please don't post unless you have a canon point to add to the discussion (i.e., one that has not already been stated, and please don't post just to reiterate your point). You can use Yahoo's search function, which is adequate to find out whether something has been posted in the last few days. We are a diverse group, and we're not going to agree on everything. 4. No One-liners. They have been banned. It's a rare point that can be made effectively in a single sentence. 5. Snipping and Attribution. Please snip long quotes down to the minimum amount necessary so a reader will understand what you're talking about. Make sure you credit quotes to the right poster. Happy Posting! The HPfGU List Elves From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 12:05:35 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:05:35 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132908 Well, what can I say? (Quite a lot apparently ? I've come back in to edit this!) This is a kind of personal overview of / reaction to the whole book. I wasn't here when the last one came out so I hope this is acceptable as per the rules. Talk about hit you straight between the eyes! I had to read the first couple of pages twice because when they mentioned the `Bones murder' I thought "Oh My God, Amelia Bones, no it's a flashback to when her brothers(?) were killed in the first war, no it's not it's Amelia" in a kind of loop a couple of times. Then the treachery of Snape in chapter 2, I sat there thinking "I can't believe this is being revealed in the 2nd chapter! From that moment on I changed my opinion. I had always believed him to be on the side of Dumbledore, but I read this whole book believing him to be ESE. By the end where he killed him I was sobbing and ended the book absolutely hating him. After I'd calmed down a bit though I wondered. Does this really prove that he's ESE? We saw DD insist that Harry carry out DD's orders no matter what. (see 1) When DD said "Severus please " I took this to be pleading for his life, but was he in fact pleading with him to kill him so as to not blow his cover? Was the argument Hagrid overheard between them, Snape wanting out of posing as a DE and begging DD to release him from that task, but DD refusing? Was Snape's outburst (see 2) an indication of the agony Snape was having to go through because he'd had to kill his friend and master, and to hide amongst and to behave as those he despises then to have his bravery at doing all this seen as cowardice? Did Snape save Harry or just obey Voldemort (see 3)? Is Harry, indeed not now without protection as he fears but rather still being protected, as a direct result of "his greatest protector"'s death, this time from within LV's inner circle? On a personal note I cheered to see that you *can* apperate someone with you as I had suggested, as I think I was unanimously overruled on that one!! I loved the scene at the Dursleys with the glasses whacking them over their heads. When Harry & DD were informed of the Dark Mark (which in the excitement I had completely forgotten) my heart plummeted. I immediately assumed that as they were both not at Hogwarts they were safe and so thought Ginny was dead. Then we saw Ginny but there was clearly no sign of Hermione so I thought she was dead. My emotions took a severe battering as each person `died' for me till the real death which was just appalling. I was also saddened by Harry saying even if Hogwarts does re-open he won't go back. The thought of the last book not including Hogwarts really upsets me. Someone has said to me that it's just a knee-jerk reaction and I quite agree, but who is there to dissuade him from it? DD and Sirius are gone, the Dursleys don't care, Hermione and Ginny haven't objected and Molly, though I'm sure she'll try, will have to contend with the fact he'll be `of age'. My favourite line of the whole book: (p540 (UK) chpt 25 The Cave) "I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you." Karen Quotes below 1) Chpt 26 The Cave, P 533 (UK ed) "You remember," said Dumbledore, "the condition on which I brought you with me?" Harry hesitated, looking into the light blue eyes that had turned green in the reflected light of the basin. "But what if -?" "You swore, did you not, to follow any command I gave you?" "Yes but ?" "I warned you, did I not, that there might be danger?" "Yes," said Harry, "but ?" "Well then," said Dumbledore, shaking back his sleeves once more and raising the empty goblet "you have my orders" 2) Chpt 28 The Flight of the Prince p 564 (UK ed) "`DON'T -` screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, `- CALL ME A COWARD'" 2) Chpt 28 The Flight of the Prince p 563 (UK ed) "No!" roars Snape's voice and the pain stopped as suddenly as it had started; Harry lay curled on the dark grass, clutching his wand and panting; somewhere above him Snape was shouting "Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord ? we are to leave him! Go! Go!" From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 12:06:08 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:06:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Prophetic Words Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132909 `Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness ?` Albus Dumbledore OOTP p718 Albus Dumbledore planned his own death. He understands that Voldemort would never even consider that someone as powerful as Dumbledore would sacrifice their life as part of a master plan. But what is the master plan? `Then you ought to hold your tongue!' snarled Bellatrix. `Particularly in present company!' HBP p30 It is clear that Voldemort has allowed Snape to rejoin the Death Eaters. Snape is far too valuable a supporter to turn away, since he is the best placed spy Voldemort has. However, in the back of his mind will be the same thought voiced by Bellatrix above. He cannot completely trust Snape. Neither can he use Legilimens to be absolutely sure. `If Draco succeeds', said Snape, still looking away from her, `he will be honoured above all others'. HBP p38 By allowing Snape to kill him, Dumbledore will have ensured that Voldemort trusts and reveres Snape above all his other Death Eaters. When the time comes, this will place Snape in the most powerful position to help Harry. The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading Severus .please .' HBP p556 If you still don't believe it, consider this. Would Albus Dumbledore ever plead for his life? No he would not. Would he plead if he thought Severus was wavering, that at the moment of truth, the plan might fail, because Severus doesn't want to do it? Yes he would? He was pleading with Severus to kill him and ensure his plan would continue. I genuinely believe that Snape trusts and loves Dumbledore more than anyone else. I also believe that he does not think Harry is capable of destroying Voldemort. He is angry that Dumbledore is sacrificing himself unnecessarily! Brothergib ? Seriously impressed with book 6!! From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:07:15 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:07:15 -0000 Subject: Whose orders was Snape following? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132910 Do I believe that DD pleaded for his life? NO!! Totally out of character. So that leaves 2 options: 1 He was pleading for Snape not to betray his trust and stay on the good side or 2 He was pleading for Snape to do what he had said he would do at this point in the master plan, which was to AK DD. All quotes from the UK editions Could go with 1, which does make Snape the out and out baddie but also makes Snape sort of redundant in the story, and I think there are a few more twists with old Severus. However, I can make some sort of a case for 2 ? although this is hardly well thought through yet. 1 What was it that Snape was wanting to refuse to do in his row with DD, reported by Hagrid? HBP p380 Was Snape refusing to perform the AK curse? HBP p564 as Snape is trying to escape, Harry says "Kill me like you killed him, you coward ?" "DON'T ? screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ` ? CALL ME COWARD!" I think Snape would really, really resent what Harry had said, if he had forced himself to kill DD. Yes, when he did it he had a look of hatred on his face, but he would have to have wound himself up to do it, and maybe he hated DD for making him do this, as killing someone divides the soul. 2 Secondly the whole locket thing. Do I smell fish here? If the obvious is true, and R.A.B. is a person and not an acronym, then of course Regulus Black springs to mind, plus the "heavy locket that none of them could open" OotP p108 which was in the cabinet at the Black family home and could well have been one of the "small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpie like, from Sirius's purge of the house" OotP p445, which was then passed on in Mundungus' meeting with the barman at the Hogshead (who I think we all know is Aberforth) HBP p231 which might then, very easily have passed onto DD, way, way before the outing to the cave. 3 Why did JKR, twice mention the Draught of Living Death? (1st in the first potions class, and then at Slughorn's party) Yes it was very pale pink and not emerald, as the potion was on the island. But we had also been very carefully told that the antidote to a mixture of poisons is more than the sum of the antidotes of the constituent parts, and that it involves an "almost alchemical" process. Was the potion on the island a mixture of potions? And was (far fetched bit here, I admit) the AK curse the alchemical bit of the antidote? In which case, is DD dead at all? 4 On first reading highly suspected that DD was not dead, this was in part because of the phoenix rising from the flames at the funeral ? HBP p601 `Harry thought, for one heart stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire vanished" - haven't we seen DD disappear that way before ? OotP p549 "Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand and grasped the phoenix's long golden tail. There was a flash of fire and the pair of them were gone.' Although, I was not so sure the second time through, and am reserving judgement on that one. The fall from the Astronomy Tower does sound sort of fatal, especially when your limbs are all pointing in odd directions! 5 The whole trip to the cave seemed a set up to me. More about DD seeing if Harry would obey instructions or do things, even though those things might mean death. It seemed as if DD wanted to know that Harry had the wherewithal (a shorter but possibly not acceptable list word would serve much better here!) to carry on without him. He set Harry tasks with Slughorn during the book to give him confidence in being able to get information from people. It really wouldn't surprise me if DD set up his death at this point. As no doubt everyone will be posting stuff like this to the list, I'll refrain from making comments on all the other stuff that is currently whizzing round in my head like: exactly what the debt is which one wizard has to another when they have saved their life, which might well have a bearing on the above ideas and why Snape has to reluctantly stay on DDs side; and; now everyone that Harry really loved (apart from Ginny) is dead (if DD is dead) is JKR setting it up to kill off Harry at the end so he can be with them, or will the other side have a big part to play at the end from behind the veil. Saraquel (Who wonders, if she has DDs weakness of needing to see the good in others!) From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 12:09:34 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:09:34 EDT Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... Message-ID: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132911 While I won't do a full review of HBP, I do have to say that it will probably go down as one of my favorite HP books, perhaps even my favorite (though having just finished it I am still in something of a stunned state, and I can't speak yet for Book 7). I much preferred the straight-forward narrative to the hodge-podge style of OoTP, and while HBP was downright painful to read toward the end, it was far less annoying than various parts of OoTP (particularly those involving Umbridge). There were several surprises, many plot points cleared up (why DADA teachers don't last more than a year, why Harry was accused of underage magic when Dobby actually performed it, etc), and questions I expected answered that were left unanswered (what happened at Godric's Hollow, why Sirius *had* to die in OoTP--per JKR, why DD trusted Snape so completely, etc) that will no doubt be answered in the Book 7. But let me just move to what has to be the most riveting dilemma left to us at the end of HBP: Is Snape really evil, and has he for the past 18 years completely fooled the greatest wizard of his age, Albus Dumbledore? I think not. In fact--and hence the title of this post--I am 98.6% certain that Snape is still on the side of the Order, and that every action he took in HBP, up to and including killing DD with the Avada Kedavra curse, was done with DD's knowledge and consent. Why am I 98.6% certain, you ask? The points: 1. DD belabored the point OVER and OVER again in HBP (much more so than ever before) that he trusted Severus Snape. He has belabored this point since PS/SS. If in fact Snape turns out to be on Voldemort's side, then DD, who has certainly made mistakes--but generally reasonable ones--will look like one gigantic fool. I can't see DD going out having made such a monumental error in judgment. I just can't. 2. If DD thinks or knows that sacrificing his life is necessary to ensure Harry's success in destroying Voldemort, then DD will do it. I don't know yet why DD had to be sacrificed, whether he will have more ability to help Harry in the "afterlife" (as a phoenix perhaps?), if he simply knew it was his "time," or the potion he drank was more deadly than he let on to Harry. But it certainly tied in conveniently with Snape's unbreakable vow to Narcissa, though I can't tell which came first--the unbreakable vow or DD's plan. If Snape and DD both know in the end Draco won't have the guts (or enough evil inside him) to kill DD as instructed--or both are determined to *save* Draco from taking that final step into the abyss--Snape will certainly have the guts to do what was necessary to move DD's plan forward (just as Harry had the guts to stick to his promise and keep forcing the potion down DD's throat in the cave). 3. Several overheard conversations are ambiguous enough to be supportive--Hagrid heard DD and Snape arguing, Snape saying DD took too much for granted and maybe he didn't want to do it anymore, and DD replying that Snape had agreed to do it and that was all there was to it. That could easily be construed as Snape having second thoughts about killing DD if it became necessary, and DD reminding Snape he had promised (even given an unbreakable vow). Add to that the conversation Harry overhears between Snape and Draco, where Snape is clearly aware of Draco's intent and pumping Draco about how he's going accomplish his task. Snape is looking for his chance to either intervene or take Draco's place if killing DD becomes necessary. 4. DD would *never* plead for his life. Ever. He doesn't fear death. I feel VERY strongly about this one. His "Severus...please..." plea was an act, or intended to prod Snape to carry out his promise--i.e., kill DD. And Snape...his look of hatred, well, Snape is good at those looks, isn't he? I imagine he has no trouble thinking of something that fills him with hate/rage (perhaps of Voldemort, who is ultimately the one forcing his hand here). 5. Snape doesn't kill Harry when he has the opportunity, but instead saves him *yet again.* Yeah, the Dark Lord supposedly wants to take care of Harry himself. Whatever. If Snape hates Harry as much as he *seems* to, it's hard to believe he'd hold back, just so the Dark Lord could have his bit of fun. Instead Snape seemed to be having his own bit of fun with Harry, casually brushing away his curse attempts and simultaneously keeping him alive, and all the while giving him ADVICE on how to fight more effectively! Say what? 6. This isn't a reference to a plot point, but it still bears saying I think. The difference between A. Snape running around with Voldemort and the Death Eaters as truly one of them throughout book Seven, and B. Snape working undercover while walking a tightrope between Voldemort's wrath and HARRY'S wrath (not to mention every other DA member, Order member, good witch/wizard everywhere) while setting up Voldemort for a fall, and perhaps dying himself to accomplish that fall, all because of his unswerving loyalty to DD based on some pivotal as yet undisclosed reason which will finally illuminate Snape's true character--to me it is the difference between a basic and not particularly inspired plotline, and a multifaceted, intriguing and ultimately satisfying plotline. 7. Oh, speaking of that *reason* Dumbledore was so incredibly certain of Snape's loyalty and harped about trusting Snape to everyone who would listen, that *reason* which has been brought up repeatedly in every book, that *reason* that Harry's been dying to know, that we've ALL been dying to know--well, it will be nothing but a worthless red herring if Snape is really the evil git he appears to be at the end of book Six. Why would JKR belabor the point so much if it was in fact completely pointless (not to mention, where's the fun in it)? 8. Regarding Snape in particular, it's hard to believe that that's it--that's all there is to Snape. He hid at Hogwarts pretending to be loyal to DD until Voldemort regained his power, the end. Even from JKR's own interviews, she's hinted there's more to be revealed about Snape. (For instance, she thought it was funny someone asked about Snape falling in love and said that we would learn something more about that in book Seven...) If Snape has rejoined Voldemort for real, what more is there to reveal? I can't see JKR building all this complexity into Snape only to reduce him down to a mere evil character. Those are the main reasons I feel very confident that Snape is not truly back in Voldemort's service, as he appears to be at the end of book Six. I'm sure there are more that I just can't think of right now. But those ones feel pretty strong to me. So strong, in fact, that the one thing that could disappoint me in book Seven is if NO ONE recognizes these inconsistencies in Snape's and Dumbledore's behavior once they've had time to reflect on it. (Harry might be too emotional to think about it logically, but I would hope Lupin, McGonagall or others might express some ambivalence about Snape's loyalties). As for that remaining 1.4%, that little niggling bit of doubt, well...I must admit that I am not the writer ;-) No one has yet predicted everything JKR will do, though *some* things have certainly happened as predicted. She's made a comment or two that Snape is a "horrible man" and such, which could be construed as support for Snape being evil all along. Yet, she always manages to contradict those comments with other far more ambiguous comments. So I can't say with 100% certainty that Snape is still on the side of good, but after HBP I'm actually more convinced now than I ever was before! In any case, there's no doubt in my mind that book Seven has become a story that hinges squarely on the actions of two people--Harry Potter and Severus Snape (Volde--who?--really, I almost forgot about his existence in HBP!) Sure, all the characters will be involved (I don't think for a minute Ron or Hermoine--or Ginny--will let Harry go off to find those Horcruxes on his own). But in the end I think it will Snape who will be most pivotal to Harry's success--though I suspect at least one serious confrontation between them, with Harry proving much more of a match for Snape than he was in HBP, before Harry realizes that DD's trust in Severus Snape was indeed well-founded. And now we only have to wait two more years (TWO YEARS--AARGH!!!) to find out for sure ;-) Julie --wondering if it's a bad thing that I love Snape (as a character) even more than I did before! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From d.marchel at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 12:04:55 2005 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:04:55 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dumbledore=92s_Assisted_Suicide_Theory?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132912 Now, before I begin, I'd like to say that I do not agree with assisted suicide, and I really would not appreciate any flames. I realize this is a very controversial subject, especially when associated with a series aimed at a younger audience. I'm writing this theory because perhaps JKR does support assisted suicide, as controversial as that statement sounds. Now, on with the theory Pretty self-explanatory, I think. But let me go into the details. I do not believe DD was becoming senile, or as Harry called him, "a foolish old man." Perhaps physically he was less able than before, as shown with his hand injury from the fight with LV, but mentally he seemed in very good shape. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and I don't believe he was wrong in doing so. DD saw so much of Harry that Harry did not see in himself. DD knew that HP belonged in Gryffindor, even when Harry doubted himself. DD also showed Harry how truly different from Voldemort he was because he had love. So why should he be wrong about Snape? Yes, Snape is a good Occlumens, but Dumbledore is a good Legilimens. Even after Harry mentions how good of an Occlumens Snape is and that he could have easily lied, Dumbledore mearly looks at harry and says, "I trust Severus completely" [P. 549, US]. DD knows real evil. He can sense crooked traits such as a taste for power and a lack of empathy that certain people possess ? like, for instance, Tom Riddle. However, we know that Snape does not lack empathy ? he cares for Draco enough to make an Unbreakable Vow with his mother. He's always cared for Draco and revered him as a student. And anyway, it seems that Draco's family itself is trying to break free of LV's grasp on them. Notice that in the 5th book, Kreachure considered Narcissa Malfoy his second Mistress, while in the 6th book he now calls Bellatrix his second mistress. In addition to this, Draco obviously hesitated and could not kill DD at the end of the 6th book. Snape being tied very close ? to the death, in fact ? with this family proves a certain amount of resistance to the dark Lord, does it not? While in the enchanted cave, DD took a potion that "was no health drink" [P. 580, US]. That is all that we learn directly from DD, but in the cave, Harry notices DD's odd behavior induced by the potion. This, in itself, was incredibly dark and made me uncomfortable. Dumbledore actually pleaded for death! We have no idea what the potion was meant to do ? perhaps it was meant to imitate the emotions of the little boy and girl LV terrorized in that cave, or perhaps something else ? but it weakened DD substantially, made his seem more child-like (primitive, maybe? I'm not sure of the word to use here), and made him ask for death. Now, let's flash forward to the tower scene. Draco was unable to kill DD, and even in his weakened state, DD was able to make Draco doubt where his loyalty lay (family, rather than LV) and asked him to join the good side. It seemed that Draco was almost convinced to join the good side before the door swung open and some Death Eaters joined the crowd. Even they couldn't get Draco to kill DD, but then Snape burst onto the scene. "`Severus .' The sound frightened Harry more than anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed. Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. `Severus please '" Revulsion and hatred etched in Snape's face? Hatred for what? For Dumbledore, one of the kindest and wisest men thus far in the books? The one man who showed Severus love and trust? I would rather say that perhaps anger was etched in Snape's face. Both DD and Snape are good Legilimens. It is not implausible that they could perhaps communicate telepathically as well. In fact, I am surprised that no solid examples of this have been shown in the books yet, since teleporting (Apparating, in this case) and mind reading are possibilities. Dumbledore, knowing that Snape had done an Unbreakable Vow after earlier discussions with him, would know that if Snape didn't kill him, Snape would die ? and that would be a horrible blow to everybody, since Snape was the Order's only spy, and a very high up in LV's ranks as well. So telepathically, DD asked Snape to kill him. And with anger etched on his face ? that he had to kill the one man who truly trusted him and actually loved him (remember, Snape lacked love when he was younger) ? and being bound by the Vow, he did as DD asked. I'd love feedback! But please, do not flame me, because I know this is a very controversial issue. ~Dysisgirl From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:10:46 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:10:46 -0000 Subject: Book 6 - Some Thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132913 Wow! Absolutely magnificent. Rowling is only getting better and better. I have to admit that I was so stunned after reading the end, that I was in shock. But after reflection I can see that these things must be. Some of my thoughts. DD's DEATH - Yes he's really dead - I'm so sorry - but it always was going to be Harry's battle and he's on his own now and ready for the task, mentally at least. I wish his skills were a little better. He's always gotten through on luck. DD's sacrifice in petrifying Harry and thereby not having time to protect himself was wonderful. I wonder if it will provide Harry with even more protection. Will Harry survive to the end of Book 7? I hope so. SNAPE's treachery - well, I always thought he was rotten. He was just too mean and enjoyed it all so much. But still it shocked me very much. I think he will be almost a more formidable foe than LV. Snape does have feelings of compassion. He did make the unbreakable vow to help Malfoy. To me Snape is really really scary. The SHIPS I loved. I always agreed with Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. I was very surprised and pleased with Tonks/Lupin. Harry's first kiss with Ginny was great, and the way he looked for Ron to get his approval. I also was very pleased with Harry telling Ginny they couldn't see each other any more. I would expect nothing less from him than his concern for her safety. Fleur turned out to be a hero too. Bravo! McGonagall will make a good head mistress for Hogwart's, though she's a bit too stern. One of the things that made DD so cool was his sense of humor and his great love for the students. Big sigh. Do you think R.A.B. could be Regulus Black and that the real necklace is at 12 Grimmauld place? So in book 7 Harry will stay with the Dursley's until he is of age. Then after July 31 he and Ron will go to MOM for their apparation tests. Then I suppose it's off to Godric's Hollow and maybe Grimmauld place. I would expect Harry to go back to Hogwarts again, at least to make a further search of the Unknowable Room. Well, I'm off for a second reading of HBP. Can't wait for book 7 and to hear all your thoughts. Bonnie From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:13:44 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132914 vmonte: R.A.B. = Regulus Black I think that Regulus took Kreacher with him to the cave. Kreacher also probably drank the potion. Also, if Regulus had a need to get anything from Grimmauld Place Kreacher would have been able to snap his fingers and be beack and forth in minutes. Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that 2 people would have had to have gone to get the locket. OotP, Ch. 6: "They found an unpleasant-looking silver instrument, something like a many -legged pair of tweezers, which scuttled up Harry's arm like a spider when he picked it up, and attempted to puncture his skin; Sirius seized it and smashed it with a heavy book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy. There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket that none of them could open, a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirius's grandfather for "Services to the Ministry." Regulus was probably killed right after he and Kreacher came back with the locket. No wonder Harry has to live a Sirius's house next year. The locket is either in Kreacher's sleeping area or with the items Mundungus stole. zgirnius: (responded from another website) Certainly Kreacher may have been involved, that did not occur to me, but he IS the Black family's House Elf. And it would be a clever way to get around LV's protections. Just like Dumbledore points out to Harry that they can both go into the boat, because Voldemort's enchantments will not consider a 16-year-old a threat. Voldemort would probably not view a House Elf as a threat, either, we know from Dobby that he and the Death Eaters despised House Elves. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snitch-/message/107 vmonte again: From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 19 12:14:50 2005 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:14:50 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132915 It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. That Voldemort intentionally made him a Horcrux in contrast to using the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse on him. Proof for this theory is that he needlessly killed Lilly. he only need to kill James. No one had used a Horcrux on a living animal, such is so with Nagini. He has never attacked Harry without need, or outside of a defensive context besides his Tom Riddle Horcrux. Harry Potter is the most highest protected wizard in their community, it would be a brilliant plan! And it also explains the prophecy -- "neither can live while the other survives." >From a Hopeful theorist; Mr Ogilvie who is waiting to see if his brilliant 11 and 12 year old kids think the same thing. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:16:41 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:16:41 -0000 Subject: Snape in HBP, a draft theory. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132916 This is my take of Snape's role in HBP, and from a girl that always thought Snape was evil. This theory could also fit for a Snape that works for his own - very Slytherin-like... 1. When DD went to pick up Harry at Privet Drive, he already had a black hand, "and" he was looking for a new "Potions" professor. 2. DD had always denied Snape the DADA professorship. 3. DD told Harry (later in the book) that Voldemort had jinxed the DADA position. 4. Snape and DD knew that the magical wound/jinx/hex in his hand will eventually kill him... my guess is that DD would not have lived for too long that year. 5. When 'Cissy Malfoy asked Snape to do the Unbreakable Vow, Snape already knew of Dumbledore's wound and that his position at Hogwarts was going to be compromised if DD died soon. Plus, as a double spy, he also needed to convince Bella of his loyalty to the Dark Lord. What better proof than to offer to kill Dumbledore for a DE's fellow? After all, Dumbledore was going to kick the bucket sooner or later...and in order to give Snape a bit more depth, perhaps he'd really cared for Draco Malfoy. 6. So Snape told Dumbledore of this Vow, then took the DADA position, to make sure he would be with Voldie next year, and then tried to prevent Malfoy from killing Dumbledore, to extend this for as long as possible. 7. Hagrid over-heard Snape and Dumbledore in the F.Forest. He said that Snape was asking DD to make him not go on with the plan (or something like that, I read the book once and don't even know where to look for that quote, sorry). Maybe Snape was asking DD to not make him kill DD? Perhaps DD thought that Draco had a chance to be redeemed if Snape convinced him of not killing DD? This is where I stumble a little with my 'theory', :) 8. Dumbledore made Harry promise him to follow his orders/wishes even if they didn't make sense to Harry. (Cave chapter? or previous one?) I have reason to suspect that Dumbledore had asked the same from Snape: in the event that Draco were about to kill him, Snape should do it. A dead Snape would be worthless to the cause, :) That way, Snape'd have proven beyond any doubt that he was loyal to Voldie. But. I get the feeling that Dumbledore asked Snape to help Harry/Order after his death. Maybe another Unbreakable Vow? But who'd have been the 'third' party? New character in HP7? Or one of those Order members that Jo mentioned in her last interview, that we've heard of but don't know them well yet? "If" Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, this new or semi-new character will be very important in HP7, because so far the Order believed that Snape had betrayed them. This way, when this Order member confesses that Snape is truly loyal to them, then things would not look that grim for Harry/Order. I suspect of this because Snape had tons of opportunities to hex Harry at the end, he could have stupefied him and taken him to Voldie. But Snape didn't. He not only "told" Harry what he needed to do: close his mind and learn silent casting of spells, but he also convinced the other DE's to leave Harry. The "pleading" in Dumbledore's voice? Yes, I think that DD was pleading Snape to kill him. Let's not forget that Harry had believed that Sirius was his parents' killer in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA: "...The taunt about his father rang in Harry's ears as though Black had bellowed it. A boiling hate erupted in Harry's chest, leaving no place for fear. ..." PoA, page 339 Scholastic p/b edition. "...'Kill me then,' panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. 'Kill me like you killed him, you coward- ' 'DON'T -' screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them -CALL ME COWARD!' ..." HBP, page 604 Scholastic h/c edition. It'd be really neat (and tragic) if Snape turns out to be a mirror of Black's situation in PoA, wouldn't it? Having to endure the weight of crimes which they "unwillingly" committed... And I say all this after having believed since PS/SS that Snape was and will always be an evil guy... In all honesty, if what I've just reasoned comes close to HP7 canon, it'd give Snape's character many, many layers of depth. Yet somehow, if this is true, I can see Jo have Harry discover this about Snape, have him take a liking for the chap (he already "liked" his Half-Blood Prince book, didn't he?), and then Jo goes "baaammm!" ... and kills Snape, XD. Marcela From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Tue Jul 19 12:20:10 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:20:10 -0000 Subject: Spinners End Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132917 Like other posts thus far, I don't believe in ESE Snape. While reading chapter 2, all I could think of was "come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly." He made the Unbreakable Vow, ensuring Narcissa and, more importantly, Bellatrix believe he is loyal to Voldemort, but he did it with DD's full approval, IMO. I was appalled at him by the end of the book, in tears and hating him. Then I thought about it, and read the book again from another angle. Snape's mastery of Occlumency is serving him and the Order well, I believe and hope. Plus, the DADA legacy carries on - Snape won't be teaching it next year. Claire From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:21:32 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:21:32 -0000 Subject: HBP thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132918 These are just first scattered thoughts about HBP, which could change after the rereading or after listening to you guys. I am still absorbing the book, but don't want to postpone participating in the discussion of it. Oh, my. I loved this book, loved it SO much. The most important thing is that I did not need to convince myself that I loved it as I tried with OOP. The story was great ? tightly weaved plot and very big BANG, IMO. For now I will just skip to my favorite part of the series ? the characters. 1. Dumbledore, Dumbledore. As dear Phoenixgod said ? the real Dumbledore had been hiding during OOP. He decided to skip book five and jumped straight to HBP. I loved everything about him in this book. I cheered on how he handled Dursleys. I liked how he basically spelled out that the only reason Harry was left with them was for protection (none of that toughening Harry up staff anymore, thanks G-d). I think Albus expressed his displeasure of Dursleys very eloquently. Thank you, JKR. "Dumbledore paused, and although his voice remained light and calm and he gave no obvious sign of anger, Harry felt a kind of chill emanating from him and noticed that Dursleys drew slightly closer together. You did not do as I asked. You have never treated Harry as a son. He had known nothing but neglect and often cruelty at your hands. The best that can be said is that he at least escaped the appalling damage you have inflicted upon the unfortunate boy sitting between you." HBP, p.55 His mentoring of Harry was brilliant, IMO. I think I loved the best his reprimand of Harry, when he failed to retrieve Slughorn's memory. Dumbledore did not raise his voice, he did not scream, he just showed that he was disappointed in Harry and THAT put Harry to shame. "A hot prickly feeling of shame spread from the top of Harry's head all the way down his body. Dumbledore did not raise his voice, he did not even sound angry, but Harry would have preferred him to yell; this cold disappointment was worse than anything" ? HBP, p.428. It reminded me how Remus handled Harry's sneaking to Hogsmeade in PoA. Snape, take notes on which disciplinary method works best on Harry! Oh, I forgot, no more teaching for Snape for now. I am finally convinced that Dumbledore loves Harry ("I am not worried Harry, I am with you" was such a moving line) and not treating him as a weapon, but IS concerned with his survival ("and I most certainly hope it will help you to survive"- paraphrase) I loved Dumbledore`s willingness to share everything with Harry, I loved him not trying to protect Harry anymore and I cried for him. As far as I am concerned, Puppetmaster!Dumbledore is put to rest also. 2. Harry was great in this book, IMO. I would have liked to see him screaming sometimes, since disappearance of CAPLOCK Harry was a little bit too fast, IMO, but I can handle that, I suppose. After all, Harry is supposed to be a very strong person. I loved how he learned his lessons from OOP and went straight to adult about his suspicions about Malfoy and Snape. I loved the irony that it did not help him much and was SO happy that at least Harry will not be alone in his mistrust of Snape anymore, since nobody in the Order seems to trust him either. I think Harry pulled a magnificent fight at the end. He could not get Snape with magic, but he at least got him with the insult, finally. :-) 3. Right, this brings us to my major source of happiness with HBP ? Snape. :-) I am delighted that in my mind this book put to rest "poor dear victim of big bad Marauders"! Snape. I was laughing a lot over irony of Snape being hit with the curse, which his majesty himself had invented. Sirius was right after all about Snape's fascination with Dark Arts. Masterfully done, JKR. I am also ready to bet many galleons right now, that if we ever to see Pensieve scene again, some things were would look REALLY different. I don't know which exactly would be different, but I am pretty positive that something would be. We do have an idea that person's memory CAN be modified by that very person. I am also not put off by the fact that Slughorn's memory had thick fog in it and that is why how Dumbledore figured it out. After all, Albus said that it was "crudely done" and that implies to me that Snape could do much better job with modifying his memories than Slughorn did. He is a genius after all. Did Dumbledore beg Snape to kill him or not? I am not sure, but I do think that there are many holes in "Snape killed Dumbledore on his orders" justification. Dumbledore talks with Draco as a man, who makes contingency plans and is ready to implement them, not as someone who knows that he is dying. Many had been saying that Dumbledore was ready to die to save Snape from his vow. That makes Dumbledore to be a noble man, but how exactly that absolves Snape of responsibility, I am not sure. Snape could have easily get out of giving this vow in the first place, no? Bella was against it anyway. Snape only had to remind Narcissa to be proud of her son and keep secret things .well, secret. As of now it seems to me that Snape is much more loyal to Malfoys than to Dumbledore. Oh, and I am also happy that Harry finally got to insult Snape which REALLY got to him. His face full of rage in response to Harry's "coward" was priceless. I think Snape is "deeply horrible person' even if Dumbledore begged him to kill. After all, Avada IS one of the unforgivables and I think that Unforgivables in Potterverse are called so for a reason. That is why I am also not so sure that Dumbledore would ask anyone to kill for any reason. I also wish to take back my assertion that JKR cannot write villains well. Snape looks like a great villain to me, multifaceted and all. Boy, I just can't forget how creepy he was through the whole book. He still calls himself a Prince? Time to grow up, Snape, and stop calling yourself the name you invented when you were a kid. Now the only redemptive ending I see for Snape is his big death in book 7, regardless of the reason he killed Dumbledore. To paraphrase Phoenixgod again ? "the betrayer of Potters, the slayer of Dumbledore (for whatever reasons) should not be allowed happy ending" I agree with it, it is just same vicarious retribution all over again. Snape as of today has way too much blood on his hands and should pay for it, IMO. I even finally appreciated Tom Riddle as a villain. Finally he was portrayed as competent and scary bad guy, IMO. I found horcruxes story to be very elegantly crafted. Bravo, again JKR. 4. Do I share the theory that Harry could be one of the Horcruxes? I certainly think that at some point he would believe so and would go into final confrontation with Voldemort ready to sacrifice himself, but at the very last moment it would be deemed unnecessary for some reason. 5. Was there something I did not like about the book? Probably romances. Now, could someone explain to me where exactly Remus/Tonks came up from? Honestly, it is not only because I would prefer for Remus to love Sirius. I think it was the most awkwardly handled romance ever, even for secondary characters. 6. I also found Harry/Ginny to be lacking spark ( Phoenixgod should stop smirking NOW) Let me make myself clear ? I am still very open towards this SHIP, I just hoped for more elegant writing about them. The scene of their breakup indeed reminded me cheesy fanfiction story. The only new romance I loved in this story was Bill/Fleur, no matter how little time was devoted to them. They seem to have lots of chemistry and Fleur is one strong lady. 7. I actually loved Molly/Arthur in HBP. I think JKR indeed pays attention to the fans, despite her claims to the contrary. SSSusan pointed out to me how Molly was proud of twins doing well in business, how she did not yell at Bill at all. I myself noticed how she and Arthur almost did not bicker at all this book. I have no doubt anymore how JKR views Molly ? loving mother of the big family. 8. What else? I also wanted more Remus in the book, of course, but then I realized that by keeping Remus distant from Harry JKR ensures that he would live longer. I think we got nice explorations of Sirius and Dumbledore and look where it got them. So, I guess I would settle on distant but alive Remus in the books, and there is always fanfiction for deep exploration of his character. I was quite happy about few Remus' glimpses we got (except his romance with Tonks, as I said earlier. I don't even mind it that much; I just did not think that it was written well). I loved him reminiscence about James calling his illness "furry little problem" Very nice touch. I also loved Harry noticing Remus loosing control for the first time when he learns about Dumbledore's death. Shows to me how much Remus loved Dumbledore. I seem to be all over the place in this post, but we are just starting, right? There would be plenty of time to form eloquent theories till book seven comes out. One last thing for now ? JKR did the impossible. She made me feel sorry for Draco. NO, I don't like him, or respect him. But I do pity him now. Again, bravo JKR. I thought I would not be able to feel any kind of positive emotions towards Draco ever. On the other hand, I am still looking for that mysterious being called "good Slytherin" to emerge among Hogwarts students, because I certainly did not see any. Just my impressions, Alla. From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:18:43 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari Webb) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:18:43 +1000 (EST) Subject: Snape in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: <20050719121843.49808.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132919 Hi, my name is Mari, from Australia, I've lurked on the list for ages and this is my first post :-) I?ll come right out and admit that I was not a Snape fan (like some others) from the beginning of the series. For the first three books, while I didn?t think he was necessarily evil, I didn?t find him particularly interesting or appealing; just a bitter twisted man with petty favourites and scapegoats among his students. By the end of Goblet of Fire (GoF) I was beginning to change my mind. Snape?s response to Dumbledore?s question at the end, in particular, pulled me up short and made me look at him in a new way: ______________________________________________________________ "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready If you are prepared " "I am." He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. _______________________________________________________________ Throughout Order of the Phoenix (OotP) it becomes clearer and clearer that Snape has previously worked as a double agent for Dumbledore, and is possibly (but we don?t know for sure at this stage) doing so again. Along with the other beautifully done character development in OotP, we find out a little about Snape?s past, and some of the things that have made him the person he is now. All right. Now we come to the tricky bit, Snape?s story in HBP. My reading is that Dumbledore knew Snape had been told to kill him because Snape told him this was what Voldemort meant for him to do. I will list the things I base this reading on in chronological order. Of course, I am aware any of these things could be read the other way; i.e. that Snape is actually evil. 1) When Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, at the last question his hand twitches; a small sign, but nevertheless, something that shows he may be in some inner turmoil here about carrying out the task (i.e. killing Dumbledore). 2) The argument between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid overhears. My reading of this is that they were most likely discussing Snape?s task. Also, Snape is clearly saying he is reluctant to do it, although he knows he must, and Dumbledore insists that he has to do it. 3) It was CRUCIAL to Dumbledore's plans throughout this book, that Voldemort not be alerted that anything was going on. This is because all the Horcruxes haven't been found yet. If Voldemort were to be alerted that plans are being made against him, it would immediately become impossible for Harry or Dumbledore or anyone else to find and destroy all seven horcruxes. For that reason, Snape, if he is supporting Dumbledore, can't reveal this fact. He HAS to go through with killing Dumbledore, particularly as the whole thing happens in front of a group of Death Eaters who would know Snape has betrayed them if he does not do what Voldemort has told him to do. 4) The fact that Dumbledore does not want Harry take him to Madam Pomfrey; this would make sense if he wanted healing, but I think Dumbledore knows that he has to die :-( He also knows that Snape is the only person who will go through with it if Draco fails. 5) Snape's agonising response to Harry's calling him a coward; he seems to be in pain here. If he IS supporting Dumbledore he isn't a coward, considering the very difficult thing Dumbledore has asked him to do. Mind you, I think Dumbledore and Snape are the only ones who know the whole story. There must be something that no one else knows about that Snape told Dumbledore, that causes Dumbledore to trust him. I don't think its what Harry believes (i.e. Snape being sorry that he caused the death of James and Lily). My other arguments in defence of Snape are related to how Rowling has set up the series as a whole rather than specific incidents/passages in HBP. To my way of thinking, it makes no sense to spend as much time as she has making Snape into an intriguing character, to have him turn out evil now; not that I?m saying we know which side Snape will ultimately choose, I am simply arguing that Rowling has deliberately left it open at this stage, we will not find out Snape?s true allegiance until the next and final book. To definitively reveal his allegiance now would spoil the structure of the series as a whole. Mari. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive 'King Kong' Trailer from the maker of 'The Lord of the Rings' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 12:23:02 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:23:02 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132920 > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. > > That Voldemort intentionally made him a Horcrux in contrast to using > the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse on him. > > From a Hopeful theorist; Mr Ogilvie who is waiting to see if his > brilliant 11 and 12 year old kids think the same thing. It is possible that Voldemort did intend to kill Harry and then use an item that he knew was in the house (Godric's Hollow) and thus fulfill his wish to use items belonging to the founders! However, I have thought about this (as have you) and the use of Harry as a Horcrux does make a lot of sense. The question that then raises it's head is - Does HArry have to die for Voldemort to be defeated? I have wondered if the 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes, is the fact that Voldemort had taken part of his soul back from Harry when he reincarnated. Perhaps this release Harry from the need to die to defeat Voldemort. Brothergib From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:24:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:24:45 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132921 Posted on 7/7/05 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132220 >Saraquel wrote: In the Edinburgh interview, JK said this is what we should think about: "There are two questions that I have never been asked but that I should have been asked, if you know what I mean. "Why didn't Voldemort die?" Not, "Why did Harry live?" but, "Why didn't Voldemort die?" The killing curse rebounded, so he should have died. Why didn't he? At the end of Goblet of Fire he says that one or more of the steps that he took enabled him to survive. You should be wondering what he did to make sure that he did not die? but you should be asking yourself that question, particularly now that you know about the prophesy." >I vmonte wrote: Isn't there a legend or fable that talks about a man that becomes immortal because he keeps his soul hidden in a box? (Did I make this up?) >Pastafor5 wrote: You could be on to something here. This is also part of the ballet story "The Firebird" (phoenix?). In the version of this story that I've read, the evil Kotschei keeps his soul in an egg in a box. The firebird lulls the evil creatures who serve Kotschei (dementors/death eaters?) to sleep so the hero can get to the box to destroy the egg. >Interesting. I'm thinking Voldemort could somehow have his soul magically protected within himself. Could the dementors play a roll in retreiving it? >vmonte: Now on a different post there was a disscussion on the significance of the quidditch matches in the series. I pasted Debbie's old essay: >Debbie (Cont'd): PS/SS (message # 132190) I've left this for last, because the parallels do not seem to work as foreshadowing like the parallels in the later books do. The primary parallel I see in the first Quidditch match, against Slytherin, is that the Trio suspect Snape both of trying to kill Harry during the Quidditch match and of trying to get through the obstacles to reach the Stone. However, since Harry doesn't learn that Snape was protecting him instead of jinxing him at the Quidditch match until he faces Quirrelmort, the element of foreshadowing is lacking. There is some foreshadowing in the Hufflepuff match, where Harry's grab of the Snitch in record time foreshadows his ability later on to retrieve the Stone instantly from the Mirror when he realizes he needs to keep Quirrelmort from getting it (ch. 17). However, I find this parallel less satisfying than those in the later books. >I vmonte replied: I believe that the quidditch in this book reflects what happened at Godric's Hollow. Debbie wrote about the ease of Harry catching the snitch above. Well, look at how baby Harry was able to defeat Voldemort at GH. (And it was really due to the fact that his mother had placed a spell on Harry to protect him.) >Marcela wrote: What I think that was very significant in this match, and ultimately foreshadowing the end of the book, was that Harry didn't literally "catch" the Snitch with his hands but with his "mouth", almost swallowing it. This to me foreshadows that Harry "contained" the Stone all this time (Mirror scene), but didn't "want" it for himself (didn't swallow Snitch). >vmonte: Is it possible that Harry "swallowing the snitch" is symbolic for what happened to Harry at GH? ___________________________ now on 7/19/05 vmonte: I loved how Dumbledore mentions that a horcrux can live inside a living creature (Najini). I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux is inside Harry---the scar. I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of somehow ripped out the piece of soul that was living in Voldemort and transfered it to Harry. And maybe it was the merging of these two souls that caused the explosion at GH. I also think that Snape was at GH and that he suspected what happened. During CoS Snape whispers the Serpentsorcia spell to Draco during the duel. Why did Snape do this? At this point in time there was no reason for anyone to think that Harry had any of Voldemort's power. I think that Snape suspected that Harry might and he tested him. When he realized that Harry was a parceltongue his suspicions were confirmed. (By the way CoS was the book that JKR almost introduced us to the HBP.) Vivian From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 12:25:11 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:25:11 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132922 > R.A.B. = Regulus Black > > vmonte It is interesting to note that Sirius and Regulus had an uncle Alphard (the one that left the money to Sirius). Therefore we may have; Regulus Alphard Black! From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:26:08 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:08 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dumbledore=92s_spy_at_Spinner=92s_End_?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132923 US Hard p32? Narcissa: "The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it He wishes none to know of the plan. It is very secret. But?" Snape: "If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak The Dark Lord's word is law." Snape: "It so happens that I know of the plan. I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of treachery to the Dark Lord." Snape gave no evidence of knowledge regarding what it was Draco was ordered to do. He seems unaware of the plan and seems to be attempting to glean what the plan is from Narcissa by playing that he knows the plan. Snape trusts that Narcissa is right that the Dark Lord `wishes none to know the plan'. Earlier (US Hard p30)-- Snape: "Have you discussed [sparing Harry's life] with the Dark Lord?" Bella: "He lately, we I am asking you, Snape!" Here, Snape can easily infer that Bella is not too confident regarding her status with the Dark Lord. So, Snape can guess that she is not supposed to be in on the plan either. This would mean that Snape could successfully lie about knowing the plan because neither Bella, who is not suppose to know the plan, and Narcissa, who is not to tell the plan, would talk to the Dark Lord about their conversations with Snape about the plan. But what about the fight in the forest between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid overheard a part of? Well it was just a part of the fight/argument that he overheard. It reminds me of the misdirection we, as readers, witnessed in PS/SS between Snape and Querrelmort. I think the argument could easily have been Dumbledore demanding/asking Snape to kill when he, Snape, knows the time is right or is asked to by Dumbledore. This is so: Draco doesn't become a murderer and Snape lives (fulfilling the Unbreakable Vow). `But Snape AK'd Dumbledore ' Yes but was Snape's intention to kill behind the Killing Curse. He has the power, but does he have the will? How many times have we seen any kind of spell/charm/hex/whatever fail because the intention wasn't there, even though the incantation was stated? Here's how it could have gone. Snape says AK outloud though not meaning it, and he uses a nonverbal (nvbl) spell to throw Dumbledore into a Death-like Sleep. This spell is one developed by Snape, maybe with some assistance from Dumbledore. We have already seen throughout the book that Snape, the Half Blood Prince, has a knack for potion improvement and spell creation. But Dumbledore pleaded for his life. Dumbledore: `Severus please ' `Pleaded' is Harry's perspective. But instead of pleading for his life perhaps he was pleading for Snape to follow through with their, Dumbledore and Snape's, plan. This obviously contradicts my last possibility if in fact Snape does AK Dumbledore. But I want to believe that Snape would have rather died than to follow Dumbledore's directive for Snape to kill him. Other reasons why Snape may still be working for Dumbledore (dead or alive): 1. Snape knew nothing of the Death Eater invasion of Hogwarts. Did the Dark Lord not trust Snape? 2. Dumbledore could have died, making the plan easier for Draco, had Snape not saved Dumbledore after Dumbledore retrieved the ring and suffered the curse that left his arm burnt or withered. Perhaps I don't want to believe that Dumbledore is really dead or that Snape is evil. But I think I want to believe that Dumbledore's greatest strength is giving others a second chance: that this beautiful quality is not a `weakness'. Kemper From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jul 19 12:33:02 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:33:02 -0400 Subject: My general review and saddest part of the book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132924 Well, firstly, this was by far the darkest book of the series. It was most unsettling and I had to abandon my plan to read it immediately. I finished Sunday and am going to start my re-read tonight. I couldn't start back up Sunday as I was too upset by the ending. I was so sure that Draco was going to be a turncoat and come over to the other side but evidence to the contrary was shown quite early. Narcissa seems quite desperate in her attempt to save Draco which reminded me of the love of Lily for Harry and her desperate attempt to save him. One of the most shocking moments for me was Remus and Tonks !! Some might have been ready for that but it took my by surprise...a welcome surprise I might add. I ended the book absolutely hating Snape. I just couldn't believe that he would so coldly and without any hesitation kill Dumbledore. I cried. I cried and sobbed, especially at the funeral and afterwards when Fawkes left. Amer. ed., pg. 632. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left the school, had left the world...had left Harry." That for me, was the saddest part of the book although I don't doubt we'll see Fawkes in book 7. Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:31:17 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:31:17 -0000 Subject: Super Early Predictions for book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132925 1. Regulus went to the cave with Kreacher 2. The locket that no one could open at Grimmauld Place during OOTP is the real horcrux from the cave 3. Snape gave Lily the protection spell 4. Snape is the real bad guy of the books 5. Snape has been working for a long time to destroy LV and DD 6. Trelawny's prophecies are a hoax perpetrated by Snape to keep LV and DD distracted while he slowly destroys both camps. 7. "The Dark Lord approaches..." is a clue that Snape is the creator of the prophecy. Who calls LV the Dark Lord and why would a non DE call him that? 8. Harry will have to collect all the items that Mundungus sold. 9. Harry will find the locket in Kreacher's hiding place 10. Harry will take Dobby to find the other Horcruxes 11. The Weasley's are decendants of Gryffindor via the father's side 12. The penseive will be back 13. Harry will find some of his mother's spells (a new book) 14. We will find out what killed Luna's mother 15. Harry becomes a bad ass like Dumbledore 16. Harry will save Draco but Draco will not appreciate it 17. Harry will realize that there is a horcrux inside of him and will sacrifice himself for mankind -- CRAP! 18. Or someone will bring Harry to the love room and he will somehow be reborn minus Voldemort powers and scar (as long as he is not left a squib) 19. We will find out that things are not as they appeared during "Snapes Worst Memory" (Snape is hiding something) 20. Voldemort will again kidnap Ginny -- but Ginny is also a badass 21. Hermione will figure out something important about Snape From j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 12:33:43 2005 From: j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk (Boolean) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:33:43 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132926 "kenney": > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. > If this is the case then surely Harry would have to commit suicide/order someone to kill him in order for Voldemort to die, and then *someone else* would have to kill Voldemort, to destroy the last piece of his soul. In terms of Book 7 plot, I can't see Harry leaving the job to anyone else. Assuming for a moment that Voldemort 'wins' at the end of Book 7 - he would have to kill Harry in order to do so, and thus destroy one of his Horcruxes. I can't see that happening. I think the missing Horcrux is going to be something of Rowena Ravenclaw's, and that maybe Harry will have to use Gryffindor's sword one more time - possibly to kill Voldemort. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 12:33:56 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:33:56 -0000 Subject: First thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132927 Geoff: Aha! The sign has been turned to "Open", the door is unlocked. The shop has re-opened. Time for a bacon butty and a half of Felix Felicis please. Having finished my copy of HBP at about 4.00 pm BST on Monday afternoon, I began to try to put together some of my thoughts which had swum to the surface of my Pensieve. First, I have to say that I enjoyed HBP far more than OOTP. The latter has never been one of my favourite books. It seems wordy and rather vague on occasions while I felt that, to me, HBP seemed sharper and more focussed. Let me say in passing that I chickened out and didn't make any predictions ? not even to myself. It was interesting to suit back and watch what others were thinking. One of the first thoughts to cross my mind was that JKR has once more managed to send enough misinformation out before publication to catch many readers on the wrong foot. For example . The man who "looked rather like an old lion" (HBP "The Other Minister" p.21 UK edition). He isn't Godric Gryffindor, he isn't the Half-Blood Prince; he is Rufus Scrimgeour ? Fudge Mark 2! The Half-blood Prince. She kept me guessing right up to the moment when: "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them ? I, the Half-Blood Prince!" (HBP "Flight of the Prince" p.563 UK edition). It just underlines my own feeling of never liking or trusting Snape all the way through. Felix Felicis. We all assumed it was a person's name. And it wasn't. Spinner's End. We still don't know where it is. But the ruined chimney and the name of the road make me think of a Lancashire cotton town ? I grew up in one. Workers in the mills were sometimes called weavers or spinners. This chapter though, for me, was a real eye- opener so early in the book. Interesting too, that HBP begins with not one, but two chapters not seen from Harry's POV. And what of Book 7? Any hints? Harry says that he will not come back to Hogwarts even if it re- opens. Will he change his mind or will he go off after Voldermort because he will then be of age to organise his own life? Will Ron and Hermione also join him? Will we finally see Godric's Hollow and the Potters' graves? And, who is RAB? Speculation has already begun .. Finally, to round off this disjointed set of thoughts. The most depressing thing I have encountered this weekend is an interview with JKR in which she says that she will go on with work on Book 7 at the end of the year and wants a 6 month break. I hope she's planned the book out but I hope that some more has been done on it while HBP was being sorted out at the printers etc. otherwise are we going to be chewing finger nails until something like 2007? From kgpopp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:33:56 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:33:56 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape ... Spoiler .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132928 S P O I L E R - - - - - - - Oh good someone else who is done. At chapter 2 I was not sure but it did not look good. I was wondering how Snape would get out of is bind and not sure if it was a red herring or for real. And thought of all the post where people debated the double/triple agent theories. Of course in the end I too was a wreck it the next stay and I still feel as though I lost some I kinda knew. While I huge part of me also hates Snape I hope you are right. Not because I care for Snape but I'd hate for Dumbledore to have been so.... wrong. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > Well, what can I say? (Quite a lot apparently ? I've come back in > to edit this!) This is a kind of personal overview of / reaction to > the whole book. I wasn't here when the last one came out so I hope > this is acceptable as per the rules. > > Talk about hit you straight between the eyes! I had to read the > first couple of pages twice because when they mentioned the `Bones > murder' I thought "Oh My God, Amelia Bones, no it's a flashback to > when her brothers(?) were killed in the first war, no it's not it's > Amelia" in a kind of loop a couple of times. Then the treachery of > Snape in chapter 2, I sat there thinking "I can't believe this is > being revealed in the 2nd chapter! From that moment on I changed my > opinion. I had always believed him to be on the side of Dumbledore, > but I read this whole book believing him to be ESE. By the end > where he killed him I was sobbing and ended the book absolutely > hating him. > > After I'd calmed down a bit though I wondered. Does this really > prove that he's ESE? We saw DD insist that Harry carry out DD's > orders no matter what. (see 1) When DD said "Severus please " I > took this to be pleading for his life, but was he in fact pleading > with him to kill him so as to not blow his cover? Was the argument > Hagrid overheard between them, Snape wanting out of posing as a DE > and begging DD to release him from that task, but DD refusing? Was > Snape's outburst (see 2) an indication of the agony Snape was having > to go through because he'd had to kill his friend and master, and to > hide amongst and to behave as those he despises then to have his > bravery at doing all this seen as cowardice? Did Snape save Harry > or just obey Voldemort (see 3)? Is Harry, indeed not now without > protection as he fears but rather still being protected, as a direct > result of "his greatest protector"'s death, this time from within > LV's inner circle? > > On a personal note I cheered to see that you *can* apperate someone > with you as I had suggested, as I think I was unanimously overruled > on that one!! > > I loved the scene at the Dursleys with the glasses whacking them > over their heads. > > When Harry & DD were informed of the Dark Mark (which in the > excitement I had completely forgotten) my heart plummeted. I > immediately assumed that as they were both not at Hogwarts they were > safe and so thought Ginny was dead. Then we saw Ginny but there was > clearly no sign of Hermione so I thought she was dead. My emotions > took a severe battering as each person `died' for me till the real > death which was just appalling. > > I was also saddened by Harry saying even if Hogwarts does re-open > he won't go back. The thought of the last book not including > Hogwarts really upsets me. Someone has said to me that it's just a > knee-jerk reaction and I quite agree, but who is there to dissuade > him from it? DD and Sirius are gone, the Dursleys don't care, > Hermione and Ginny haven't objected and Molly, though I'm sure > she'll try, will have to contend with the fact he'll be `of age'. > > My favourite line of the whole book: (p540 (UK) chpt 25 The > Cave) "I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little > stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you." > > Karen > > Quotes below > > 1) Chpt 26 The Cave, P 533 (UK ed) > "You remember," said Dumbledore, "the condition on which I brought > you with me?" > Harry hesitated, looking into the light blue eyes that had turned > green in the reflected light of the basin. > "But what if -?" > "You swore, did you not, to follow any command I gave you?" > "Yes but ?" > "I warned you, did I not, that there might be danger?" > "Yes," said Harry, "but ?" > "Well then," said Dumbledore, shaking back his sleeves once more and > raising the empty goblet "you have my orders" > > 2) Chpt 28 The Flight of the Prince p 564 (UK ed) > "`DON'T -` screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, > inhuman, as though he was in as > much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house > behind them, `- CALL ME A COWARD'" > > 2) Chpt 28 The Flight of the Prince p 563 (UK ed) > "No!" roars Snape's voice and the pain stopped as suddenly as it had > started; Harry lay curled on the dark grass, clutching his wand and > panting; somewhere above him Snape was shouting "Have you forgotten > our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord ? we are to leave him! > Go! Go!" From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:34:39 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:34:39 -0000 Subject: JKR weekend Interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132929 Vmonte: >From an interview this weekend - Samatha Scattergood for Waterstones - Which is your favourite member of the Order of the Phoenix? JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that you have not yet met properly and you will ?? well, you know that they are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that. vmonte: It's got to be Aberforth. We know that he is an Order member because he was in Moody's picture. (I bet Harry will collect this memory of Moody's and review what happened at the party in the penseive.) There is something going on with Olivander though. Did he go into hiding? Chloe Anwyll for the Sunday Express - Voldemort has been involved some way or another in all the books, will he be throughout to the end of book seven or will there be a twist that means Harry books may continue? JK Rowling: He will definitely be in book seven and that is as far as I am going to go on that. vmonte: The real villian is Snape and he has been working slowly to get rid of his two biggest threats: Harry and Voldemort Vivian From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:36:37 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:36:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132930 Adding my trickle to what is bound to be a mighty river of posts on Snape -- I see Snape's betrayal and murder of Dumbledore to be key to the unfolding of several crucial themes of Book Seven. The first is Harry's development, his coming of age as a young man and as a leader. A person in a position of leadership must be able to trust their own instincts and think for themselves, even in the face of opposition from their advisors. For a long time now, Harry has had a strong intuition that Snape was untrustworthy, that he hadn't really gone to the good side. Dumbledore and Hermione, his two most reliable advisors up til now, kept telling him he was wrong. Dumbledore was essentially saying: trust Snape because I trust him, and Hermione was echoing the theme: if Dumbledore trusts him, he must be trustworthy. Listening to them, Harry even overrode the testimony of his own experience -- that his mind felt more, not less, open after Snape's occlumency lessons. Now Harry has learned the hard way that even the wisest can be wrong, that he must never ignore a strong intuition again, no matter what other people say, no matter how much he may love and respect those others. This realization will be crucial for whatever it is he must do and face in Book Seven. Trust your feelings, Luke. The second theme is a spiritual one, and ties into JKR's oft quoted remark that if people knew she was a Christian, they could figure out what's coming in the series. The core of the the Christian faith is that love is stronger than death, and stronger than hatred and betrayal. If the final book is to demonstrate this faith, there must be a terrible death and an even more terrible betrayal front and center. This is the fire through which Harry must pass to know the true nature of love. To those who would argue that Snape didn't really betray Dumbledore, that some further plot twist will exonerate him in Book Seven, all I can say is this: do you really think that JKR would put all of us, including herself (she had said that she was "seriously upset" at the end of this book, more so than with the death of Sirius) through this anguish as a game? The betrayal was real, otherwise the triumph over it could have no meaning. These are the two most important meanings for Harry, IMO. But what does it mean for Snape? He has now revealed his hand. JKR set us up for the revelation of his true nature at the beginning of the book in Chapter 2; but I think the real clue was in Chapter 8, when Snape meets Harry at the gate and taunts him all the way to the Great Hall. We later find out that all that while, Harry's face was covered in blood. There are two ways to read Chapter 2; there is only one way to read that incident. Snape is a true Death Eater, a sick and twisted soul who enjoys watching others suffer. Sorry folks, I didn't want to believe it either, but there you have it. Before he kills Dumbledore, he looks at him with "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Remember what Bellatrix told Harry about Unforgivable curses? "You have to mean them Potter! You have to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it -- " And Snape does mean it, and the curse works instantly. Why did Dumbledore plead with Snape just before he died? I don't think he was pleading for his own life. I think he was pleading for Snap's life, his spiritual life, that is. Please do not destroy your own sould like this. Because, like Christ, Dumbledore loves and forgives to the end, no matter what. JKR has spoken of redemption in connection with snape. We can only hope! But to demonstrate the great power of redemption there must first be great sin. Must close here -- got to get the kids to camp. Thanks for bearing with me, those who got this far. Inkling From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 12:36:56 2005 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (cornflower_o_shea) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:36:56 -0000 Subject: In Total Denial (SPOILER WARNING) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132931 S P O I L E R I'm Dumbledore's girl through and through... I'm absolutely in total denial, as Dumby was my utter favourite, so conspiracy theories may be the first stage of mourning, denial, but let me expound (if only for my sanity)... HE IS NOT DEAD! Uh-uh...no way! How would he fake his death? As he is tumbling from his tower he transforms into his animagus (a bee!). There has been much speculation about whether Dumbledore is a bee animagus based on his name (a medieval word for 'bee'), the buzzing of the wasp in the exam room in Phonenix, and how Dumbledore seems to appear out of nowhere in Hogwarts, where you cannot apparate. Then he might transform someone else into his body. Perhaps this has been arranged already. Is Nicolas Flamel dead yet? Perhaps he volunteers to take polyjuice. There is some precedent for this. Remember how Crouch's mother was buried instead of Crouch? How could he be alive if Snape performed Avada Kedavra? There is a very significant clue at the end of ORDER. Bellatrix tells Harry that in order to perform an unforgivable curse YOU MUST MEAN IT! If Snape is in on the conspiracy, he would say it but not mean it, and therefore, not be able to do it. Why would he fake his death? Who are the only characters we know skilled in leglimency and occlemency? Snape, Voldy, and Dumbledore. Harry failed miserable in his attempts. Therefore, all other characters are vulnerable to Voldy if they know a big secret, such as Dumbledore is still alive. Everyone must believe that Dumbledore is dead for Snape to stay alive and continue to spy and find out where the horcruxes are. One of the reason I think that Serious had to die, was so that we would believe that JK had the guts to do Dumby in. Otherwise we wouldn't accept that possibility... But I still don't accept it. NO WAY! Why would he trust Snape??? I can't handle a fallible Dumbledore, so I'm sticking to my conspiracy theory until proven otherwise, or until I'm ready to confront my grief...(never!) Love, Cornflower From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 12:44:23 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:23 -0000 Subject: Super Early Predictions for book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132932 > 5. Snape has been working for a long time to destroy LV and DD > 6. Trelawny's prophecies are a hoax perpetrated by Snape to keep > LV and DD distracted while he slowly destroys both camps. You forget that Trelawney's prophecy was made to Dumbledore! Snape has carried out Dumbledore's orders and will help Harry in the end. I don't think Snape agrees with Dumbledore that Harry can finish Voldemort, but he has given his word, so has to carry it out! Brothergib From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 12:51:57 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:51:57 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_Assisted_Suicide_Theory?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132933 I'm with you in the reasoning. I arrived at the same conclusion. Check my post #132916... My theory also includes a possible Unbreakable Vow performed between Snape and Dumbledore, in which DD makes Snape vow to help Harry in his fight against Voldie. Because, what is Snape's double agent's worth to the Order if nobody will believe he had to kill DD as per his own orders? The book ended with those Order members believing Snape was a traitor... but Jo said in her last interview that in HP7 we'll get to know some old Order members a lot better. Marcela --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dysis" wrote: > Now, before I begin, I'd like to say that I do not agree with > assisted suicide, and I really would not appreciate any flames. I > realize this is a very controversial subject, especially when > associated with a series aimed at a younger audience. I'm writing > this theory because perhaps JKR does support assisted suicide, as > controversial as that statement sounds. Now, on with the theory > > Pretty self-explanatory, I think. But let me go into the details. I > do not believe DD was becoming senile, or as Harry called him, "a > foolish old man." Perhaps physically he was less able than before, > as shown with his hand injury from the fight with LV, but mentally > he seemed in very good shape. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and I don't > believe he was wrong in doing so. DD saw so much of Harry that Harry > did not see in himself. DD knew that HP belonged in Gryffindor, even > when Harry doubted himself. DD also showed Harry how truly different > from Voldemort he was because he had love. So why should he be wrong > about Snape? Yes, Snape is a good Occlumens, but Dumbledore is a > good Legilimens. Even after Harry mentions how good of an Occlumens > Snape is and that he could have easily lied, Dumbledore mearly looks > at harry and says, "I trust Severus completely" [P. 549, US]. DD > knows real evil. He can sense crooked traits such as a taste for > power and a lack of empathy that certain people possess ? like, for > instance, Tom Riddle. However, we know that Snape does not lack > empathy ? he cares for Draco enough to make an Unbreakable Vow with > his mother. He's always cared for Draco and revered him as a > student. And anyway, it seems that Draco's family itself is trying > to break free of LV's grasp on them. Notice that in the 5th book, > Kreachure considered Narcissa Malfoy his second Mistress, while in > the 6th book he now calls Bellatrix his second mistress. In addition > to this, Draco obviously hesitated and could not kill DD at the end > of the 6th book. Snape being tied very close ? to the death, in > fact ? with this family proves a certain amount of resistance to the > dark Lord, does it not? > > While in the enchanted cave, DD took a potion that "was no health > drink" [P. 580, US]. That is all that we learn directly from DD, but > in the cave, Harry notices DD's odd behavior induced by the potion. > This, in itself, was incredibly dark and made me uncomfortable. > Dumbledore actually pleaded for death! We have no idea what the > potion was meant to do ? perhaps it was meant to imitate the > emotions of the little boy and girl LV terrorized in that cave, or > perhaps something else ? but it weakened DD substantially, made his > seem more child-like (primitive, maybe? I'm not sure of the word to > use here), and made him ask for death. Now, let's flash forward to > the tower scene. Draco was unable to kill DD, and even in his > weakened state, DD was able to make Draco doubt where his loyalty > lay (family, rather than LV) and asked him to join the good side. It > seemed that Draco was almost convinced to join the good side before > the door swung open and some Death Eaters joined the crowd. Even > they couldn't get Draco to kill DD, but then Snape burst onto the > scene. > > "`Severus .' > The sound frightened Harry more than anything he had experienced all > evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. > Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out > of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even > the werewolf seemed cowed. > Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and > hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. > `Severus please '" > > Revulsion and hatred etched in Snape's face? Hatred for what? For > Dumbledore, one of the kindest and wisest men thus far in the books? > The one man who showed Severus love and trust? I would rather say > that perhaps anger was etched in Snape's face. Both DD and Snape are > good Legilimens. It is not implausible that they could perhaps > communicate telepathically as well. In fact, I am surprised that no > solid examples of this have been shown in the books yet, since > teleporting (Apparating, in this case) and mind reading are > possibilities. Dumbledore, knowing that Snape had done an > Unbreakable Vow after earlier discussions with him, would know that > if Snape didn't kill him, Snape would die ? and that would be a > horrible blow to everybody, since Snape was the Order's only spy, > and a very high up in LV's ranks as well. So telepathically, DD > asked Snape to kill him. And with anger etched on his face ? that he > had to kill the one man who truly trusted him and actually loved him > (remember, Snape lacked love when he was younger) ? and being bound > by the Vow, he did as DD asked. > > I'd love feedback! But please, do not flame me, because I know this > is a very controversial issue. > > ~Dysisgirl From hpsupergeek at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:00:34 2005 From: hpsupergeek at yahoo.com (Debra) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:00:34 -0000 Subject: Harry a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132934 >From CS13: > "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore > calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who is the last > remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak > Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred > some of his own powers to you the night he gave you > that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..." > > "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, > thunderstruck. > > "It certainly seems so." This immediately came to mind when I started to think about what I had just read and theorize about what would happen in the future. Voldemort intended Harry's death to be his final horcrux. If there's any special preparation he needed to make before the kill to harness that portion of his soul that became detached from the rest, then it needed a home. Could it have found one in Harry? And in that case, would Harry have to destroy *himself* before VDM could be destroyed? This would fulfill the meaning of the prophecy, and then the rest of the order could take on Voldemort. I don't know how much I believe in this theory, but I think it's worth considering. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:01:11 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:01:11 -0000 Subject: Super Early Predictions for book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132935 I vmonte wrote: > 5. Snape has been working for a long time to destroy LV and DD > 6. Trelawny's prophecies are a hoax perpetrated by Snape to keep > LV and DD distracted while he slowly destroys both camps. Brothergib responded: You forget that Trelawney's prophecy was made to Dumbledore! Snape has carried out Dumbledore's orders and will help Harry in the end. I don't think Snape agrees with Dumbledore that Harry can finish Voldemort, but he has given his word, so has to carry it out! vmonte now: The prophecy was made to Dumbledore but Snape was also there. Was he really listening or controlling Trelawny? Vivian From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Jul 19 12:58:18 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:58:18 -0000 Subject: My Reaction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132936 Okay, I've finished the book, and my reaction is very complicated. Please bear with me. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. First of all, I thought that in and of itself the book was very good. Having said that, I think the way it fits into the total sweep of the series is a little odd. Or, maybe it might be better to say that it highlights the odd way in which OOTP fits into the total sweep of the series. I have often thought that JKR is a little bit disingenuous about some of her statements. She has claimed to have the entire series plotted out in advance, and that she is writing for herself and not readers. I don't think either of those things is completely true. I suspect she has things nailed down a lot less firmly than she likes to let on and that she pays a lot more attention to the fandom than she likes to let people think. It seemed to me that large segments of HBP were written to please/placate/pacify certain sections of the fandom. I don't mean that as a criticism, by any means, since I think any author ignores their fans to their peril. Still, it was striking how things worked out. For the shippers we get LOTS of attention to the two most popular ships, as well as a nod to a minor ship (R/T) which even most people who shipped it probably never expected to see in canon. For those interested in Draco we got a humanizing of him. For those interested in Slytherin we got a Slytherin who was, if not exactly good, at least competent, loyal, and more-or-less harmless. However, what really interested me is the way in which many, many issues and themes raised by OOTP were either dismissed or swept totally under the rug. Sirius Black - who was that, surely not a parental figure Harry suddenly lost? SPEW who? The DA disbanded on what seemed almost a whim. The prophecy -- well it isn't REALLY binding, after all. Luna and Neville relegated to near cameos. The Dursleys once again are caracatures, the evil stepsisters no one has to take seriously. And Harry's anger, guilt, depression, and turmoil, almost completely gone. That scene in DD's office - he didn't mean it, as DD is his bestest and favoritest person in the world. As for the ominous implications of the war starting in the last chapter of OOTP and the sense that things would be much different at Hogwarts -- well, mostly we decided to put that aside in favor of Quidditch and snogging. And the House Unity that the Sorting Hat keeps mentioning and that the DA seemed to at least partly embody -- vanished like summer rain. It was as if JKR was saying "Okay, a lot of the implications and themes of OOTP just didn't work out the way I intended. Let's kinda pretend like OOTP didn't happen." And in truth, much of what happened in this book could have been done in fifth year as easily as sixth. If she had expanded the book a hundred pages or so and dropped in the prophecy and Sirius' death, she wouldn't have needed OOTP at all except as a way of getting everybody to take their OWLS. Even the tone, by and large, was closer to that of the earlier books than to that of OOTP, although of course terrible things happened. Oddly, like I say, I don't really mean this as criticism of HBP. I think it was, in general, a very good book and much better than OOTP. But I find the sudden backtracking from much of the tone and implications of OOTP highly bemusing. I thought the whole thing with Snape was well-done but extraordinarily manipulative. She essentially showed us something while banging us over the head almost every chapter with reasons why we shouldn't take what we see at face value -- which itself raises suspicions that maybe we should do just that. I am, once again, almost totally bemused. The only thing that I really didn't like on the face of it was Passive!Remus with large helpings of EmotionallyDistant!Remus. So much for him getting closer to Harry. Its as if JKR is lining up one major "adult" friend for Harry in each book, and doesn't want to deal with the implications of more than that. Anyway, my thoughts. Lupinlore From i_caesar_t at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:01:36 2005 From: i_caesar_t at yahoo.com (i_caesar_t) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:01:36 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132937 Very good analysis, juli17. I totally agree with you. Also, I want to attract everyone's attention to one more point: we now know that Snape treated DD after the episode of the ring. In fact, DD would have wanted Snape to treat him after the Cave episode as well, and he was even prepaired to send Harry to fetch him. Now, should Snape indeed prove to be evil, Voldie is SURE to find out about the chase for the Horcruxes (I think we all agree that Snape is smart enough to figure this out, even if DD hadn't told him the truth). And, if Voldie finds out about the chase for the Horcruxes in time, there is no way in heaven that Harry and Co. could defeat him any more. So... Also, I read JKR's recent interview and something attracted my attention. She said we are about to meet one member of the Order who wasn't so well known before, but will prove to be important. Any ideas? I must confess that I was one of those who couldn't refrain their curiosity, so I jumped to the end of HBP, five minutes after buying it. I saw the phrase "DD's tomb", and everything became clear. So I read the book with the intention of finding a replacement for DD, someone who could come even close to his abilities and really lead the fight against Voldie. Don't you aggree that Snape seems to be the most capable now? I must confess I was somewhat disappointed in McGonagall, Lupin and the rest (Mad Eye was supposed to be a very capable Auror, so where was he during the HBP??). It is disgracing to think that a great mind like DD's didn't trust anybody except Harry with the Horcrux story. It's simply not realistic, not even for a Fantasy universe. One final question. I noticed how careful JKR was to underline the fact that DD's portrait was slumbering during the staff's talk (even if I still think that she should've either not mention the portrait, or made him say something - DD, even a painted one, would not have gone to sleep right then). Don't you aggree that some talk between Harry and the portrait will be a requirement for the first chapter of Book 7? Ok, now this is really final. I remebered something about the interview. JKR seems to hint that we will somehow return to Hogwarts after all, in book 7. Any ideas? Looking forward to a lot of meaningful discussions. Caesar From rachel at phony-art.com Tue Jul 19 13:03:19 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:03:19 -0000 Subject: Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132938 Ok, I have a whole bunch of HP related thoughts going around in my head and I figure this is just the safest place ot get it out. If you have read it already, great. IF not, do not say I have not warned you at least a couple of times here. Right off the bat, TOO MUCH SNOGGING!!! Ron and his love life just got annoying. Fast. Snape is obviously the most pressing question of the hour. What in the world is going on with him? I still think that if DD trusted him there had to be a VERY good reason (much more so than merely "believing" in him). Is it possible that perhaps he was under orders from DD that were even more difficult to follow that night than were Harry's? Maybe his mission was to kill DD so that he could continue to act on some secret plan that he and DD already had in the works? Something so secret that not even the order members knew? We know Snape to be an incredibly accomplished legelimens, but we do not know anything about anyone else in the order. PErhaps revealing the plan to any of them ran the risk of having the plan exposed if they are captured. This being the case he is just in such deep cover that NOT killing DD would have left LV free to take over the wizarding world. (By the way, this ignores the "He is not really dead theories" which I think are nonsense). I guess part of me just refuses that DD could have been wrong about Snape! On top of this, I have to wonder if perhaps there is an "unbreakable vow" between DD and Snape that either 1) he has joined the good guys (meaning it must have been truth or Snape would have died if he broke the vow. The other option might be that there is a vow just for the particular event "Should the need ever arise, I will kill you in order to keep the Death Eaters believing that I am one of them." Ok, before I get into my next point, did DD ever say he did not create a Horcruxe? I mean seriously, he said it was serious and all that, but perhaps he created one? Could there be a piece of DD in Fawkes, or in the sword? We saw him say the one relic from Grifindore was safe... meybe he knew that becusae he himself had used it? Can one item be a horcue for more than one person? I was just flipping through, and I notice that in Hogsmead, wheere DD is near death, it is Snape that he wants. Perhaps he wants more than just a "potions/dada master", what if Snape is (or has) dd's horcruxe? Maybe being reunited with it would have given dd extra stregth or a piece of information he was missing. Or even, what if it was the opposite! What if DD has a piece of snapes soul? We never did find out how a horcruxe is reunited with the rest of its soul or destroyed. Perhaps one needs to destroy the vessle in which it is contained. It might also be how DD knows he can trust Snape, but that area needs more thought. Also a question. We know that a horcruxe can be an object or a person right? So why must a person kill to create one? Is it possible that DD knows that he has not used various objects (ie, GG sword, or the sorting hat [which for some reaon I believe belonged to one of the founders, but I can not lay my hands on a quote at this moment]) because he has already used it? Do we think that Harry might be one of them? We know he transfered his powers, why not his soul? Ok, away from Snape and DD as the whole area is going to take a whole lot more thought. JK Rowling said in an earlier interview that at some point we would discover why she is keeping us in the dark about the teacher's families. I believe their has to be more to this than we have seen. My orriginal thought is that there was more between MM and DD. Something the reader was not seeing... it seemed that their relationship was much closer than the others on staff. However, did it strike anyone else as odd that JKR took the time to point out to us that Poppy was wearing a knee length black veil (in my mind of the sort usually reserved for widdows)? it probably means nothing, but I thought I would see what other people think. And now a note on Malfoys. Personally, I think Lucious joined the DE out of his love for power (and inbread feeling of supiriority) and of his own free will, but draco is different. I think just wants those who he thinks are important (and who his upbring has taught him re important) to think he is important. I am not so sure I think he is evil. I do think he can still redeem himself if he wanted to... however I somewhat lean towards the idea that he must be responsible for his own actions. He made his bed (albliet with the help pf some others), now he must sleep in it (together with a bunch of other people who wear bedsheets). Rachel From mysticowl at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 13:05:52 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:05:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132939 > vmonte: > I loved how Dumbledore mentions that a horcrux can live inside a > living creature (Najini). I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux is > inside Harry---the scar. I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of > somehow ripped out the piece of soul that was living in Voldemort and > transfered it to Harry. And maybe it was the merging of these two > souls that caused the explosion at GH. I also think that Snape was at > GH and that he suspected what happened. During CoS Snape whispers the > Serpentsorcia spell to Draco during the duel. Why did Snape do this? > At this point in time there was no reason for anyone to think that > Harry had any of Voldemort's power. I think that Snape suspected that > Harry might and he tested him. When he realized that Harry was a > parceltongue his suspicions were confirmed. (By the way CoS was the > book that JKR almost introduced us to the HBP.) > > Vivian I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is Harry's scar - as opposed to it being inside Harry himself the way it's inside Nagini. Part of the reason I think we may be correct is that did you notice (you might not have if you have the American edition, I haven't seen it), the illustration of Marvolo's Ring when it's split down the middle, the crack looks just like a lightning bolt. I actually thought that's what it was at first. Now I know illustrations aren't exactly canon like the books, but... you never know! Alina. From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:07:27 2005 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:07:27 -0000 Subject: ESE!Flitwick - - We can't believe Snape is bad! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132940 We think that the scene in which Flitwick runs down to rouse Snape is quite suspicious. Snape could have been alerted in many other ways, such as the Order's patronus method. But JKR chose to have Flitwick alert Snape and, more importantly, to have Hermione and Luna witness him enter and exit the room but *not* witness what actually happened while he was in there. Their testimony of what happened is only what they could gather from listening in. Here's a rough sketch of what we believe may have happened: 1. Flitwick runs into Snape's office late at night. He finds Snape either asleep or off-guard. Don't forget, Flitwick is part goblin, and we have had no evidence throughout the book that the goblins would choose to side with the Ministry against Voldemort. 2. Tiny Flitwick performs a switching-like spell, changing Snape's mind into Flitwick's body and vice versa. Don't forget -- Flitwick is the Charms teacher and could probably easily perform a nonverbal charm that Hermione and Luna could not detect. Then, as Flitwick!Snape, and having the obvious physical advantage, he knocks out Snape!Flitwick, leaving a nasty bump on his head. 3. Flitwick!Snape runs past Hermione and Luna, toward the DEs gathered on the tower. In order to get there, he must break through the invisible barrier that others could not. How could he have done this? Remember Flitwick's part-goblin heritage. In the same way that house-elves have their own sort of magic and can, for example apparate and disappate in Hogwarts, goblins must also have their own immunities to wizarding charms. 4. After Flitwick!Snape AK's Dumbledore, he runs down the stairs and believing that he has achieved what he set out to do, mutters "It's over." Harry takes this to mean that Dumbledore has been killed, but it seems a good point at which Flitwick!Snape could have removed the switching-like spell and returned into his normal body. 5. At this point, Snape is returned to his own body, and realizes what has occurred. Bound to protect both Harry and now Draco, he chooses to remain undercover and flee with Draco. Notice how he duels with Harry; only blocking Harry's hexes, but never returning them. As we said this is just a sketch of what we think occurred, but all of the pieces seem to fit quite nicely. Besides, we just can't five up on Snape just yet! :: Entropy :: From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 13:07:22 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:07:22 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > R.A.B. = Regulus Black > > I think that Regulus took Kreacher with him to the cave. Kreacher > also probably drank the potion. Also, if Regulus had a need to get > anything from Grimmauld Place Kreacher would have been able to snap > his fingers and be beack and forth in minutes. Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that 2 people would have had to have gone to get the locket. Fran: I agree 2 people had to go but Regulus is too obvious. RAB could be the initials of 2 people, R and B. If you look at the initials on the note, the R and B are linked together, ala partner's in crime.Also, I doubt seriously Kreatcher would be able to apparate in and out of that cave. If he could, dont you think DD would have dont the same thing? I think LV is cleverer than that. snip> also a heavy locket that none of them > could open, a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of > Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirius's grandfather > for "Services to the Ministry." > > Regulus was probably killed right after he and Kreacher came back with > the locket. No wonder Harry has to live a Sirius's house next year. > The locket is either in Kreacher's sleeping area or with the items > Mundungus stole. > Fran: Yeah, I agree, Harry will find this at Grimauld place. Of course he will be reluctant to go back there. Probably someone like Hermione or Ginny will remember it. This is going to be an interesting debate! Regards, Fran ....had a big laugh at Bella calling her sister Cissy....it just struck me as very funny, such an unlikely thing to hear from a big bad DE. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 13:12:20 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:12:20 -0000 Subject: HBP Thoughts, Snape, Likes and Dislikes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132942 Warning: a bit long... I greatly preferred this book to OoP. It was much more organized and complete, rather than have story lines that wandered off, like Hagrid's tale of the giants and the events with Grawp. However, there were a lot of things raised in OoP that have not been addressed, such as all the information about the rooms in the Department of Mysteries. Maybe in Book 7 I've read the book twice already. (It took me 2 years to read OoP for the second time.) The first time through I felt that JKR was sort of going through a check-list of questions that could be answered, not just plot-related questions, but questions raised by fan discussion: Sirius' estate. Check. Where does Kreacher end up? Check. Fudge admits Sirius' innocence. Check. In my second reading, even more of these things jumped out. How does the Ministry detect the use of under-age magic? Can people Apparate directly into someone's house? How many people know the full wording of the Prophecy? Harry seems more fully the hero than in any book in the past. His assumptions are more often correct than not. He's right about Draco, he figures out things more quickly and accurately than even Hermione, for the most part. I have no problem with this, but I wonder if others will find too much of a character change in Harry from OoP to HBP. This book actually left me with some interest in Draco. On the one hand he was his usual swaggering self when boasting to his friends on the Hogwarts Express, but then, as he had difficulty during the year in completing his task, I think he became more aware that his family would suffer should he fail. I'm sure he got some pointed reminders along the way. And yet, when it was time to walk the walk, he couldn't do it. I'm not sure if I think this is because there is a core of decency in Draco, or if he does not have the level of ruthlessness necessary to become a good DE. I think Narcissa was right that Draco was chosen as punishment for Lucius' mistakes. If he failed, no great loss to Vmort. And if he succeeded, then he would have indeed have proven himself a worthy DE. I must say I was astounded that Snape actually killed DD. And, no, I'm not buying the "DD's not really dead" posts I've read. Shades of Sirius Denial...I've never been a Snape fan, so I was actually a bit let down in the beginning because, as soon as Snape and Narcissa formed the Unbreakable Vow, I was convinced that Snape was truly a baddie. And that felt very flat to me. Having had more time to reflect and to see others thoughts on the whole issue of whether Snape was actually carrying out DD's instructions, I'm more undecided. I can accept that Snape and Dumbledore had talked about the possibility that Snape might have to be the one to kill Dumbledore, both to save Draco, keep Snape from dying from breaking the Vow, and as a final set-up to send Snape back to Voldemort's right-hand and be perfectly positioned to help with Vmort's downfall. Since Snape would then be vilified by the Order, his position within the Death Eaters would be solidified. However, whatever actions Snape could then take to set Vmort up for a fall would be done solo without coordination with what the Order or Harry were doing. Unless there is a second spy On the other hand, Dumbledore made some sort of comment about his own cleverness and intelligence, at least 3 times, IIRC. And that, since he was so clever, his mistakes were consequently bigger than the average person's. Add that to the continued insistence that Snape was to be trusted, and I can believe that the big BANG here was that DD did make a monumental mistake in trusting Snape. The pleading tone of "Severus please" might then have been a plea such as "Severus, please don't repay the trust I've placed in you by this betrayal." We'll hash this to death, I'm sure over the next few years, so enough about Snape for now. Things I liked: R.A.B. acting to thwart part of Vmort's immortality plan. I'm sure RAB is Regulus Black. The fact that this faux Horcrux was the one found by DD and Harry, and thus made their attempt fruitless, was a terrible irony. Slughorn ? I loved that our first introduction to him was as an overstuffed chair. I did rather like him, in spite of his insufferable name-dropping and wheedling need to have connections. The young Riddle/Voldemort was actually a scary person. Perhaps because we saw evidence of his cruelty and viciousness and heard him in more real-life settings, as opposed to standing around pontificating in true Evil Overlord fashion. Lily described as being good in Potions. Did this get up Snape's nose? The curses written in by the Prince. How much use did he make of them at school, and was this a contributing factor to James' hatred of Snape? Very little of Grawp and S.P.E.W. Things I didn't like: Dumbledore's stated reason for accepting Snape's remorse for his DE past. I mean, are you kidding??? Giving people second chances is all well and good, but this was way too weak. Unless, as I suspect, Dumbledore gave only part of the reason why he trusted Snape. No provision in Sirius' will for any money to go to Remus. No memorial service for Sirius and no explanation for why this wasn't done. I can understand a funeral for DD, but if we can have also time for a funeral for Aragog, surely the members of the Order could have held a private memorial for one of their fallen. Of course, now that Harry has (finally!) expressed a desire to visit his parents' graves, perhaps he will see to it that some sort of memorial is created for his godfather. And, speaking of Sirius, did Fudge's admission to the Prime Minister about Sirius' wrongful conviction also make it into the Wizard world? Did the inquiry into his death at the Ministry ever occur? The relative unimportance of Neville. I loved his development in OoP and was sorry not to see more of him. Still no good Slytherin. No further explanation of the backstory to the Prank. Remus/Tonks. UGH! Being an incurable SB/RL shipper, I hated that my boat was apparently sunk. However, maybe I can switch Remus in my mind to being bisexual. It certainly seems like Tonks didn't start losing her powers and getting weak until after Sirius was out of the picture. General questions for HBP and the future: Why didn't anyone think of sending Kreacher to Hogwarts in OoP to get him out of the way and keep him from causing trouble? Why is Borage's book the standard text for Advanced Potions, when even Hermione often doesn't get good results? Why didn't Lily Apparate with Harry to escape from Vmort? Will Wormtail turn on Snape? He seems to have been placed in a somewhat servile position. I wonder if he'll have the spine to actually fight back. We still don't know who will exhibit magic late in life. Will Ollivander reappear? Will someone use the Amortentia Potion in Book 7? Will there be payment for any of the Weasleys' life debts to Harry? Marianne From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:13:46 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:13:46 -0000 Subject: Super Early Predictions for book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132943 vmonte wrote: > > 5. Snape has been working for a long time to destroy LV and DD > > 6. Trelawny's prophecies are a hoax perpetrated by Snape to keep > > LV and DD distracted while he slowly destroys both camps. > > Brothergib responded: > You forget that Trelawney's prophecy was made to Dumbledore! Snape has > carried out Dumbledore's orders and will help Harry in the end. I don't > think Snape agrees with Dumbledore that Harry can finish Voldemort, but > he has given his word, so has to carry it out! > > vmonte answered back: > The prophecy was made to Dumbledore but Snape was also there. Was he > really listening or controlling Trelawny? > ***Marcela now: But how do you explain the second prophecy? The one in PoA, only Harry and Trelawny were there... Marcela From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:13:22 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:13:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven (and genre) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > Adding my trickle to what is bound to be a mighty river of posts on > Snape -- We've got at least two years, folks. :) > For a long time now, Harry has had a strong intuition that Snape > was untrustworthy, that he hadn't really gone to the good side. > Dumbledore and Hermione, his two most reliable advisors up til now, > kept telling him he was wrong. Dumbledore was essentially saying: > trust Snape because I trust him, and Hermione was echoing the > theme: if Dumbledore trusts him, he must be trustworthy. Listening > to them, Harry even overrode the testimony of his own experience -- > that his mind felt more, not less, open after Snape's occlumency > lessons. Yes, the problem of second-hand trust. Dumbledore has his reasons for trusting Snape, but he won't share them with anyone else because it's between him and Snape. The problem with that is that DD's trust in Snape does not just affect him, but also has a direct impact on the lives of many other people, especially Harry. Is it not significant that DD's refusal to tell Harry why he trusts comes in his giant 'my bad'/mea culpa speech at the end of OotP? And that theme is hammered over and over again in HBP (cheese cauldrons, anyone?). Dumbledore could be wrong, Dumbledore could be mistaken, but he wants to think the best of people. > Now Harry has learned the hard way that even the wisest can be > wrong, that he must never ignore a strong intuition again, no > matter what other people say, no matter how much he may love and > respect those others. This realization will be crucial for > whatever it is he must do and face in Book Seven. Trust your > feelings, Luke. We've clearly shifted genres for book 7. The mentor is dead, the ambiguous assistant has done something heinous and fled, there are mystical items to be found. Welcome to Epic Fantasy Quest Mode, everyone! There are any number of holes for ESE!Snape, which will be argued over endlessly. But I like it, for a number of reasons: It's BANG-y. Very BANG-y. And it's appropriately ironic. We keep getting hammered into us "Harry is wrong, Harry's POV is limited". This makes it much more 'woah' if and when Harry is really, really right for once. Harry's intuitions, not this reliance on other people or trust in dry analysis, are going to carry him through. ESE!Snape also opens up some interesting possibilities for other characters. Especially Peter, who Snape is now treating as poorly or more than his friends ever did. Peter's listening at doors. Peter isn't happy. And he owes Harry a big one. It's also very BANG-y in an amusing way to have things hidden in plain sight in front of us. This makes a very clear read of some past events. We have a Snape motivated by duty in book 1, fighting the good fight. But we have a Snape who looks at Dumbledore with resentment and tries to pull something off behind his back in book 3, for what seem to be overwhelmingly personal reasons. [And that 'came in knowing more curses' is pretty solidly canonical now, nu? Hard also to feel sympathy for someone getting a curse they invented used against them--James et al. must have learned the curse itself somehow. Could this tie into the 'gang of Slytherins' and past history? It's the most obvious explanation, that they saw Snape or someone else using it and learned it.] Sometimes, a hedgehog is just a cute but prickly little animal, after all. -Nora notes this is a preliminary rambling mess, and sees all the holes in both sides of is he/isn't he, although there are three nice options From riyo at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 13:08:32 2005 From: riyo at verizon.net (tiiana) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:08:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death and Why did Snape Comply Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132945 Personally, I think DD asked Snape to kill him. I don't think DD was pleading for his life or for Snape to "save his soul". If Snape was saving anyone from having blood on his hands, it would be Draco. Now, the reason why DD wanted death. There was a quote I was looking for but can't find it. It's said something about "the greatest adventures are to be had after death". So, it is possible that DD thought he'd be even more helpful to Harry after death. I thought about that after McGonagall took Harry into the Headmaster's office and there was a portrait of DD sleeping. Also, what better way to gain Voldemort's trust. I think Snape was lying to Narcissa when he said he knew Voldemort's plan for Draco. I think he was trying to gain information out of her. So, being that he had an unbreakable vow to Narcissa and DD was getting weaker (between breaking the curse on the ring and drinking that potion), he asked for death. Also, remember that two accomplished legilimens facing each other. Who's to say they weren't finalizing the deal before Snape hit him with the unforgivable. And just to sneak something else in this post. If Snape truly wasn't working for DD, why didn't he just kill Harry when he had the chance. He was busy shouting DADA lessons to him: [pg. 603 U.S. Hardback edition] "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" That tells me that he was giving Harry a chance. Also, he stopped the other DE's from doing anything to him. tiiana From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:17:59 2005 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:17:59 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death ... again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132946 Just a quickie: Regarding the theory that Sirius is not really dead, and was sent through the veil as a way of faking his death in order to keep him better hidden than he could ever be at Grimmauld Place: "No, you can't," said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine ... nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me..." (HBP, ch. 27) So, I think we can safely assume that the Order *does* have the means to protect others by faking their death, then sending them away or disguising them so well that they cannot be detected. Who was that long-haired Weird Sister at Dumbledore's funeral, anyway... :: Entropy :: From pjarrett at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 13:17:45 2005 From: pjarrett at gmail.com (Patrick Jarrett) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:17:45 -0400 Subject: Half Blood Prince Message-ID: <3def328f05071906175d254948@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132947 HBP has taken the seat as my second favorite of the series, dethroning OotP and settling just behind Goblet of Fire. I thought it was fantastic, though I wish they would be able to spell check it more thoroughly, 'fug' was so disconcerting that I got completely derailed from reading and it took me 10 minutes to get back /into/ the story. I was surprised by JKR's use of 'slut' when Morfin refers to Voldemorts mother. I mean, this is a children's book. I don't know about others but it shocked me, sure it got the point across, but if I had a 7 year old child I was reading too I don't know if I want to open that door that early to questions about what 'slut' means. When I finished the book I was rather surprised by how JKR glossed over DD's death and his funeral, I would have expected a grandiose ceremony and for JKR to cover it in depth. It only seems right doesn't it? But then I began thinking and I realized that in truth, for many kids, the death of DD would be very sad and they wouldn't want to linger on it so her quick handling of it lessened the upset for kids. Maybe I'm overestimating the impact but still, I think that's why the ceremony did not get more in depth and reveal more about DD's life through the stories of others. I must admit I had not even begun to suspect Snape as the HBP but once he revealed himself to us I immediately understood and it all fell into place. I am glad to see the innocence begin to fall away in the relationships. And I too was glad to see Tonks/Lupin. The Tom Riddle back story was very very interesting and very well done. I loved it's scenarios and chapters in how DD gave it to Harry through the penseive. It fleshed Voldemort out beautifully. The horcruxes explain my biggest question, how Voldemort survived the rebounded killing curse. So we know two are gone and suspect 4 more exist. 1 we thought Harry had in the locket but now suspect Regulus got. I hadn't thought of the RAB / Kreacher team but it makes sense and I'd go with it, so I expect that we'll be lead to believe Mundungus stole the locket and it turns out Kreacher has it. (I'm rather slow, it wasn't until I wrote this paragraph that I realized Kreacher -> Creature.) I don't think Harry himself is a horcrux, at least not by Voldemort's intended action. He had planned to kill Harry so why make a being you're about to kill into a horcrux. But what if he unintentionally created one and it is held in Harry's scar. Such that the scar has to be destroyed or healed or in some way handled to thus finish Voldemort off. We'll just have to wait and see. Snape... what can I say about Snape. I'm with the majority in that I simply can't believe that Snape is ESE!Snape. DD pled for Snape to save Draco from the horror of taking someone else's life. Also I immediately latched onto Snape's lecture about protecting his mind during their 'duel' and his outrage at being called a coward. I mean, imagine Snape's point of view of Harry. Snape has to live every day playing the double-double agent, he makes Voldemort think he is spying on Dumbledore, while letting him know that Dumbledore thinks he is spying on him, as well as actually spying on Voldemort for DD. And should his legilimency fail even once, he's toast. Can you imagine the stress? Harry has to face him occassionally, no small feat, but the day to day stress is so much less. So those are my thoughts. -- Patrick From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 13:17:26 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:17:26 -0000 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132948 Lupinlore wrote: > It seemed to me that large segments of HBP were written to > please/placate/pacify certain sections of the fandom. I don't mean > that as a criticism, by any means, since I think any author > ignores their fans to their peril. Still, it was striking how > things worked out. For the shippers we get LOTS of attention to > the two most popular ships, as well as a nod to a minor ship (R/T) > which even most people who shipped it probably never expected to > see in canon. For those interested in Draco we got a humanizing of > him. For those interested in Slytherin we got a Slytherin who was, > if not exactly good, at least competent, loyal, and more-or-less > harmless. SSSusan: Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points and just got them out of the way? Another example I think of is Molly. I've *always* been a defender of Molly -- I adore her. But it's true that she had some harsh moments in OoP, and she has taken a lot of criticism from fans who found her overbearing, bossy, hypercritical, unfair, selfish, etc. In HBP, Molly was pretty awesome, I think. She was less stressed, less pushy (no harping on Bill for his ponytail), more supportive (obviously proud of F&G's business acumen), less inclined to rants & to bossing Arthur (who didn't enjoy "Mollywobbles" and that tender scene? :-)). While I enjoyed this Molly very much, I confess that I wondered if it wasn't JKR "correcting" fan "misinterpretation" of Molly after OoP [PLEASE note those quotations marks]. Or am I nuts? DISCLAIMER: Like Lupinlore, this isn't really a *criticism* of JKR nor of HBP. I was very, very pleased with this book (except for a chapter or two which felt kind of "un-JKR'ish" and almost fanficy), and it was very exciting, very creative. The woman's brain is a truly awesome thing, imo. I just think, even though I believe what she's said re: writing these books for herself, she does also seem to be very aware of what's being talked about in the fandom, and I do wonder if she doesn't use some of the dialogue as a way to address what she sees there. Siriusly Snapey Susan From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Tue Jul 19 13:18:25 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (Adesa) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:18:25 -0000 Subject: JKR weekend Interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > There is something going on with Olivander though. Did he go into > hiding? And note that he disappeared the day after Neville got his new wand. Significance...? Adesa From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:23:21 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:23:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132950 From: "inkling108" > Snip> >The first is Harry's development, his coming of age as a young man and as a leader. A person in a position of leadership must be able to trust their own instincts and think for themselves, even in the face of opposition from their advisors. >For a long time now, Harry has had a strong intuition that Snape was untrustworthy, that he hadn't really gone to the good side. Dumbledore and Hermione, his two most reliable advisors up til now, kept telling him he was wrong. Dumbledore was essentially saying: trust Snape because I trust him, and Hermione was echoing the theme: if Dumbledore trusts him, he must be trustworthy. Listening to them, Harry even overrode the testimony of his own experience -- that his mind felt more, not less, open after Snape's occlumency lessons. >Now Harry has learned the hard way that even the wisest can be wrong, that he must never ignore a strong intuition again, no matter what other people say, no matter how much he may love and respect those others. This realization will be crucial for whatever it is he must do and face in Book Seven. Trust your feelings, Luke. > Snip> Bonnie now: I have to agree with most of this post. There have just been too many times that Snape has been quite alone with Harry and has still been grossly mean and totally unfair. Why put up the act when you don't have an audience? Was he just pretending to be so mean in front of Harry so he could keep in practice (form). I don't believe it. Besides, Rowling still insists these are children's books. Why would a grownup show an adult being soooo mean, and then turn them into a good guy. How confusing for us all! Who can you ever trust? I suspect Snape is mostly for Snape. He has some good qualities, like his sympathy for Draco and Narcissa. Bottom line I believe Snape is for Snape. I may be totally proven wrong, but IMO it would be a totally unfair red herring to now turn Snape into a good guy. JKR is a genius though, she could probably do it if anyone can. Bonnie From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:27:24 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:27:24 -0000 Subject: Who is the Order member Jo's talking about (was HBP: Why I am 98.6% In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "i_caesar_t" wrote: > > Also, I read JKR's recent interview and something attracted my > attention. She said we are about to meet one member of the Order who > wasn't so well known before, but will prove to be important. Any > ideas? **Marcela: Maybe DD's brother, Aberforth? I have a theory that this Order member that we've heard from but don't know him yet will be the one saying that Snape didn't betray the Order in the end. My theory is in message #132916... Marcela From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 19 13:28:09 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:28:09 -0000 Subject: My Reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > > I have often thought that JKR is a little bit disingenuous about > some of her statements. She has claimed to have the entire series > plotted out in advance, and that she is writing for herself and not > readers. I don't think either of those things is completely true. Hickengruendler: She also already admitted, that she changed some things while writing the books, because it was more fun. But I think this is for the relatively minor points you mentioned, not for the bigger storyline. The Remus/Tonks ship you mentioned is a good example for this. I really can imagine she wrote this in to please some fans and/or because after reading it in fandom, she liked the idea of it herself. But in the end it's unimportant if they end up with each other or not, and therefore this is one of the points she could change without any problem. I disagree with you about the Draco subplot. Although it really surprised me to see him a bit humanised, the way she did it was IMO very convincing and it is too important for the overall storyline not to have planned this in advance, I think. > > However, what really interested me is the way in which many, many > issues and themes raised by OOTP were either dismissed or swept > totally under the rug. Sirius Black - who was that, surely not a > parental figure Harry suddenly lost? SPEW who? The DA disbanded on > what seemed almost a whim. The prophecy -- well it isn't REALLY > binding, after all. Luna and Neville relegated to near cameos. The > Dursleys once again are caracatures, the evil stepsisters no one has > to take seriously. Hickengruendler: This is what she IMO always did, and one of the problems of the books, although I don't see how else she could do it, since the books are already big enough. Those characters who play some part in the book that is important are also the ones, who get some development, like the Dursleys or Neville in book 5 and Draco now in this one. Those who don't have a big role in the plot of this particular plot are also the ones, who get sidelined and hardly appear. But in her latest interview this weekend she already said that for example there is more to Petunia's knowledge about Dementors then she let on in book 5 and that we'll learn it in book 7. Hickengruendler From daveshardell at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:31:38 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:31:38 -0000 Subject: Snape - what about the unbreakable vow? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132953 Wow... what a book! It wasn't until I started reading Yahoo groups that I began to consider the idea that Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to. It's possible... but my big problem is the Unbreakable Vow. For this to have all been a plan, DD must have told Snape that if he needed to kill him in order to stay close to Voldemort, then he should do so. Perhaps DD believes that Snape can help Harry find the remaining horcruxes? But the problem I have with this is that DD couldn't have known that he would be so weakened and close to death at the time that Draco confronted him. So it was possible, due to the vow, that Snape might have had to kill a perfectly healthy and powerful Dumbledore. Would DD really have arranged such a possibility with Snape? I'll accept this is possible. But for now, I really don't believe it. Snape has been too sincerely horrible to Harry all along for him to have any desire to help Harry destroy Voldemort. I actually think Snape has been playing both sides noncommitally, waiting until the opportunity to jump to the "winning" side. He's got stories to tell both sides. I think he might actually be a good enough Occlumens to fend off Voldemort's legilimency. I won't be surprised if it turns out that Snape was on DD's side all along, but for now, that's not what I'm expecting. How funny though that in the end, the HBP story line really only served two purposes: it made Harry good in potions so that he could get on Slughorn's good side, enabling him to get that memory, and it earned him Felix Felicitus. Oh, and he bloodied up Malfoy, which was cool. Now, my list of things that I was surprised were missing in the book: - minimal development of Luna and Neville - No DA (stupid, really - seems that they REALLY needed a group of students well versed in genuine DADA) - Minimal scenes of Snape teaching DADA - Nothing about the 2way mirror or contacting Sirius - Nothing major about Lily revealed - Ron and Hermione STILL haven't REALLY gotten together - though the scene at the funeral might be the very beginning of a real relationship - No details about Grawp - just that he's become more civilized - Minimal significance of Harry inheriting 12 GP (till Book 7, I'm sure - Regulus and the locket...) - No details about who is now guarding Azkaban - davenclaw From ctcasares at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:32:34 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:32:34 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape ... Spoiler .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kgpopp" wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > - > - > - > - > - > - > - > Oh good someone else who is done. At chapter 2 I was not sure but > it did not look good. I was wondering how Snape would get out of is > bind and not sure if it was a red herring or for real. And thought > of all the post where people debated the double/triple agent > theories. > > Of course in the end I too was a wreck it the next stay and I still > feel as though I lost some I kinda knew. While I huge part of me > also hates Snape I hope you are right. Not because I care for Snape > but I'd hate for Dumbledore to have been so.... wrong. > > I'm liking the idea that perhaps Snape was really on DD's side, but I find it perfectly tragic that Dumbledore could have been mistaken. He did say he made mistakes, and when he did so they were "huger" than those of others. Dumbledore's fatal flaw? Love? Believing in the best of others? Love's not your typical 'fatal flaw'. But I find it interesting how he was protecting *Draco* all year. He knew Draco was behind the death threats, he knew Harry was right about him, yet he didn't act on that knowledge or let others act on it. He protected Draco. Draco, who really thought he could kill Dumbledore. There's just something tragically beautiful about Dumbledore believing in the best of everyone--or rather the potential for the best in everyone, including Snape, even if it did mean his death. While I find some comfort in the notion Harry is not alone and will have a protector in the future, I think I prefer an ESE!Snape and a Dumbledore who believes love is worth the risks. Yes, I'm wishywashy right now. From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 13:27:38 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:27:38 -0000 Subject: HPB first thoughts after first read Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132955 Snape: Still a good guy, although had my doubts after reading Spinners End. That chapter gave us the unbreakable vow and is more relative to one between DD and Snape, than to Cissy and Snape. DD telling Harry about Snapes true remorse gives us more insight into Sanpe's nasty demeaner. Instead of wailing aloud, Oh what have I done, internalizes it where it turns more to self-loathing and anger at himself. Of course this comes out as nastiness to Harry, a constant reminder of what he had done. DD's pleading to Severus, was please put me out of my misery. This is why Snape reacted in Caps to Harry calling him a coward. I really dont think Snape wanted to kill DD. This was a hard task for him. Luna seemed a sad figure this time. Not the funny, kooky girl I liked so much in the last book. Tonks: Are we seeing a Polyjuiced Tonks here? A change in her Patronus? Wondering around Hogwart's near the ROR and Draco? Think it was Cissy! Also think Tonks was bribed somehow into allowing herself to be polyjuiced possibly because of Lupin or maybe her family. Horcrux: Who would have thunk? Overall, well written book, but I am undecided about it. I really do not know if I like it or not. It may have something to do with having to wait another 2 yrs for book 7 and the end of the series. Shipping is fun in the group,but it seemed a bit much. Also, was Blaise Zmabini thrown in for us? There were so alot of posts many moons ago about Blaise being the good Slytherin.... Feel the same about the Great Sanguini as well Regards, Fran starting the first of many re-reads From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 13:33:54 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:33:54 -0000 Subject: Super Early Predictions for book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132956 > > > > vmonte answered back: > > The prophecy was made to Dumbledore but Snape was also there. Was he really listening or controlling Trelawny? > > By controlling, I assume you mean the Imperius curse. I am still a little uncertain how this is performed, but I think it argues against your point. If a wizard has to maintain eye contact to perform Imperius, then this would explain Snape's presence. But, Snape was forcibly removed before he heard the whole prophecy, so how could he have influenced events then. If a wizard can perform the spell from afar, then why is Snape there at all? To top it all, if I remember, the prophecy was made before Harry (& Neville) were born. Are we assuming that Snape can see into the future? You may argue that Snape knew Lily (alice) were pregnant, but that seems too much of a stretch. Also, lets not forget, that Voldemort actually confirmed the prophecy by acting on it, i.e. Snape would have to know that Harry (who wasn't even born yet) would have a power to defeat the Dark Lord. Again you could probably argue that Snape was at Godric's hollow and it was all down to him and nothing to do with Lily/HArry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm hoping this is all very tongue in cheek on your part!! Brothergib From anurim at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:35:39 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: after the first reading... Message-ID: <20050719133539.83685.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132957 So all my predictions were wrong, but who cares? Jo found once again the very best way and gave us a wonderful book. I didn't love everything in it (for instance I would have liked a little more character development, because most main characters seemed to me as simplifications of their former selves, and I didn't like at all the new Ginny, nor did I understand why would Harry want an obnoxious bully of a girlfriend; on the plus side, Horace is exquisitelly written), but I LOVED the book on the whole. I imitated the concept of the pensieve and wrote a lot immediately after finishing it, but now I'll try to summarize how I see the events. During the summer, Voldemort set Draco the task to kill Dumbledore. Snape knew about it and surely he informed Dumbledore as well. Now, what would Dumbledore do? His best not to let Draco's soul be mutilated by a crime. The initial plan was surely the offer Dumbledore made to Draco on the Astronomy Tower: come to the good side and we'll protect you and your family. You are not a killer anyway. A great plan. Should it not been spoiled by the first complication: the Unbreakable Vow Snape made to Narcissa. Why did he make it? I believe that mostly out of pride. Let me say it from the beginning: I believe Snape is fundamentally a good person. I believe that most of his abuse in class can be justified by the fact that he knows how much more he can do than merely teach, except he is forced not to use his many talents in order to be useful to the war. It's not hard to explain why he hates Harry with passion: Harry, whom he perceives, probably right, as inferior to him as wizard (Harry barely manages to do his homework, let alone to invent new spells!), gets to act as the good guy, as the hero, and be loved by everybody, while nobody knows how much Snape is doing. Allowing yourself to be hated requires immense strength of character, and surely induces a lot of frustrations. Neville, on the other side, is struggling through every subject, yet he will graduate and probably get to do a decent job, while Snape will still be locked in his dungeon, teaching a subject he is not even passionate about. This is mainly how I read his abuse now. Why does he like Draco? Surely he understands that the boy is in a sense as abused as he was and will probably have quite a difficult life, without any real fault of his own. Of course he wants to protect him, as much as he can. In his place, I would feel exactly the same on all three counts, and I hate abuse with passion. So, in the vow to Narcissa, I believe Snape hoped to prove part of his strength and character. To himself, at least. And to protect Draco as well. Perhaps also to help a mother with the completely useless Lucius for a husband. Perhaps he meant to stop Draco for killing Dumbledore, if at all possible. He did not expect the third part, he did not expect that Narcissa would ask him to do the deed himself, if Draco was not able to fulfill it. But at that point he could not go back. He had to agree, otherwise what would the Dark Lord think of his hesitation to kill the main enemy of the dark side? Of course the first thing Snape did (at least in my reading) was to warn Dumbledore about the Vow. What was Dumbledore to do? At that point, either him or Snape had to die. He is old. He is not that vital to the Order anymore. Besides, he will NEVER allow somebody else to suffer if he can help - see his behavior after he drank the green potion, for instance. Without Snape's work and protection, Harry might not be able to kill Voldemort. Should Snape kill Dumbledore, Voldemort would trust him completely and therefore he might be able to help Harry even more. Therefore, Dumbledore made his choice and asked Snape to kill him, in order to spare both Draco and himself a worse faith. Perhaps Snape refused, perhaps he said that he had put his life in jeopardy to help the Order, but no, this last deed, this crime he would not commit. Perhaps this is the discussion Hagrid overheard. Yet, Dumbledore knew Snape would do what is right, therefore he finally granted him his wish of teaching DADA. As a token of gratitude and surely because in that way he gave Snape no chance to continue his double spy work at Hogwarts. Now, why would Dumbledore offer safe haven to Draco if he knew he was doomed anyway? Perhaps to let Draco know that he has an alternative, should he ever want to use it. Or, I would find more likely, to show to Harry that Draco is not a murderer. When Snape came to the Tower, there were three possibilities: (1) Draco would kill Dumbledore; (2) Snape would kill Dumbledore or (3) Snape would help Dumbledore escape. In the first case, Draco would be doomed. In (2) and (3), Snape would die. Surely Dumbledore saw only one option: to sacrifice himself and let everybody else survive and continue the battle. Snape hated what he had to do, he hated to know that his name would be cursed and everybody would consider him a traitor, but for the greater good, and because Dumbledore's orders had to be fulfilled, he commited the crime. Of course he hated Harry even more, when the little brat would get to play the hero again and he, Snape, who had actually saved everything (surely he will in the last book) had to accept danger and unfair hatred once again. Yet, he didn't kill Harry, he saved his life once again, because Harry has to kill Voldemort and nothing else is important except to rid the world of evil. I had no particular sympathy for Snape before the HBP, only a little pity for his circumstances. Now, ironically, I trust him completely. On a more symbolic note, does anybody else thinks that Dumbledore, commiting suicide, which is a crime by any standards, got to split his soul and create a Horcrux? Does anybody else think that he sacrificed himself so that his soul, his word, his truth, his principles would prevail, and that this is the biblical parallel Jo promised to us? One more little paragraph to say that, beind in denial about the death of my hero, I am intrigued about the parallels between Sirius and Dumbledore: both are much beloved, the deaths of both are hard to assimilate and truly believe, plus, each has a brother... perhaps, just, just perhaps Jo wanted to kill Sirius so that we would truly believe Dumbledore's death, although the second is not true... but I don't believe it. I truly believe he is dead, in body if not in spirit, because the whole WW became his Horcrux, the depositary of a part of his noble soul. Mira PS: 'I also miss DA, it was almost like having friends'; 'Nobody has invited me to a party yet, as a friend'; 'There's no need to call me Sir, Professor' - for these lines, if for nothing else, I would forgive anything to Jo. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From rpquate at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 13:36:45 2005 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:36:45 -0000 Subject: HBP - Trelawney's Drinking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132958 The book was wonderful! I'm fully as intriged by Snape as everyone else. However, you all seem to have him covered as a topic, so I thought I'd bring up Trelawney. The woman obviously has a drinking problem... And as a general rule, she appears to be a fraud. However, we know that she can make real prophecies as well. At first I thought her real prophecies could only be things she didn't remember, as this was how it appeared in the past. She certainly had no recollection of the prophecy she made during Harry's exam or, apparently, the one Snape overheard her telling Dumbledore. But then came the cards. The "Lightning-Struck Tower". Here's what she says when she runs into Harry in "The Seer Overheard": (US edition, p.543) "Again and again, no matter how I lay them out -- " ... "--the lightning-struck towner,"she whispered. "Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time..." There she was, reading the lightning-struck tower, hiccuping and hiding her sherry bottles. When she made her first prophecy--*the* prophecy--she was at the Hog's Head--a pub! So, my thought is this. Maybe, just maybe, being drunk increases her prowess in divination (which, I admit, I thought was non-existent until PoA). Of course, she didn't *seem* particulary drunk during the exam, but with Trelawney, who knows? I'm quite sure she keeps a bottle of sherry handy in that tower of hers. ~redandgoldlion~ From allthingshp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:37:09 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:37:09 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. Oh no! Its a very clever idea but I hope it isn't so. Because Voldemort wasn't able to possess Harry for more than a moment at the Dept. of Mysteries in OOTP, I am hoping that means he wouldn't be able to shelter a seventh of his soul in Harry for all these years. -allthingshp From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:39:44 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (parisfan_ca) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:39:44 -0000 Subject: First thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132960 well I have gone through HBP a couple of times and even though POA and OOTP are still my faves HBP is a close second. I found the novel intresting, a few tiwsts and found the begining did get off to a nice start and the ending left me with more questions than answers. a few point on my part: - I did like the whole interacton between narccissa, belatrix and snape. that was intresting. - I had figured that malfoy Jr would be trying to take malfoy sr.'s place, BUT (as dr. phil will say) don't think will be working for him now and I can only see doom for the malfoy family. - Who is RAS? some have speculated that is a member of the black famiily--I'd like to think so--maybe it's someone else--say a memeber of lord v's family we dunno about? - would like to see Harry (if he survives book 7) take a crowbar to 12 grimald place, and remake it into a home and not a tomb now he has inherited it. - I would like to see harry go back to school, even if it's for part of the year. it'd be a shame if he didn't put in apperance there. - and snape. i had always assumed he was the kind of 'in-it-for-his-own-sake' kind of man but I was hoping there was a bit of remorse in him over some of the deeds he had done as a DE but now I am not so sure. on my first reading of where he kills Dumbledore I was ready to hang him but now after the second reading I am wondering if he was asked to do what he did, but by whom? laurie From anurim at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:41:20 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] after the first reading... In-Reply-To: <20050719133539.83685.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050719134120.85944.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132961 > PS: 'I also miss DA, it was almost like having > friends'; 'Nobody has invited me to a party yet, as > a > friend'; 'There's no need to call me Sir, Professor' > - > for these lines, if for nothing else, I would > forgive > anything to Jo. I'll burn my second post of the day AND reply to my own words to say that something else I love Jo for is that Fleur did not deserve the ugly nickname Ginny gave her. Yes, Jo, just because somebody is breathtakingly beautiful and aware of it, and because they come from a different culture, it does not mean they are shallow. This is a point I am happy she took the time to make. Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kneazle24 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:38:19 2005 From: kneazle24 at yahoo.com (kneazle24) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:38:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Plan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132962 Is it just me, or was it completely obvious that Dumbledore planned his death for at least a year? There were so many ways he could have saved himself (where was Fawkes? Why freeze Harry when the only threat was a conflicted Draco?) Who could put up that barrier to the tower in Hogwarts except the headmaster? He didn't want anyone interfering. I also think DD would not have sold his life cheaply. He sacrificed himself, I wonder what sort of ancient magic he created? kneazle24 From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 13:38:21 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:38:21 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132963 vmonte: > > I loved how Dumbledore mentions that a horcrux can live inside a > > living creature (Najini). I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux > > is inside Harry---the scar. Alina: > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is > Harry's scar - as opposed to it being inside Harry himself the way > it's inside Nagini. > > Part of the reason I think we may be correct is that did you notice > the illustration of Marvolo's Ring when it's split down the > middle, the crack looks just like a lightning bolt. I actually > thought that's what it was at first. Now I know illustrations > aren't exactly canon like the books, but... you never know! This is going to be a good debate. I am not so sure Harry holds a horcrux. Too obious. Also, IIRC, DD told Harry, the murder took place first, then the rending of the soul. So LV after Ak'ing Harry and getting hit by it would not have been capable of putting the horthingy in Harry. Agree that the image on the ring looks alot like Harry's scar.... thought that when I first saw the pic. Fran From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jul 19 13:43:47 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:43:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719134347.55223.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132964 I thought that I'd probably leave the list for the next 2 or 3 years, but that's just too much fun to give up. Disclaimer: if the things in HBP are just what they seem, then Snape is on his way to the last circle of Hell, to take his rightful place between Judas and Brutus, and nothing to discuss. So I'm only arguing on the conditional probability of him not being ESE, and acting on Dumbledore orders somehow. --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > It reminded me how Remus handled Harry's sneaking to > Hogsmeade in > PoA. > Snape, take notes on which disciplinary method works > best on Harry! It only works if Harry respects and wants to please the applier of the method. > I am delighted that in my mind this book put to rest > "poor dear > victim of big bad Marauders"! Snape. Has it? I thought Snape was in no condition to lie when he insisted that James NEVER went into one-to-one fight with him. > > Sirius was right after all about Snape's fascination > with Dark > Arts. Oh yes, these curses were so dark, that the golden gryffindor boys would not touch them with the 10-foot wand. Oh wait, they did. :-) > Masterfully done, JKR. > I am also ready to bet many galleons right now, that > if we ever to > see Pensieve scene again, some things were would > look REALLY > different. I don't know which exactly would be > different, but I > am > pretty positive that something would be. I thought that after Dumbledore treated pensieves more or less as CCTV cameras, the argument about their subjectivity will be over. Apparently not. > I think Snape is "deeply horrible person' even if > Dumbledore > begged > him to kill. After all, Avada IS one of the > unforgivables and I > think that Unforgivables in Potterverse are called > so for a reason. So, is Harry doomed then? He did use an unforgivable on Bella, and if he didn't use it on Snape that wasn't for the lack of trying. Irene ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From anurim at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:50:14 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The last horcrux is inside Harry.../The Snape-Judas connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719135014.87732.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132965 I know it's silly, but what if the last Horcrux was somehow inside Dumbledore (or will be destroyed if Dumbledore dies)? I don't know how it could have happened, but we don't yet know much about Dumbledore's adventures with Grindenwald and Dark Magic. In the unlikely case it is true, I understand why he didn't tell Harry, because he wouldn't want him to protest or suffer before it was necessary. It's just a thought, I don't believe it's true. And just because there are so many posts and so little space, I'll like to say that at least in some interpretations of the Bible Jesus actively encouraged Judas to betray him, because it was the only way to make his word known to enough people (plus that I guess there was not much else to do at that point). Probably most people here know more about this than I do, but I am mentioning it because it is a point that I find fascinating. Mira ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ishamael1000 at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 13:53:31 2005 From: ishamael1000 at bellsouth.net (Setzer) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:53:31 -0400 Subject: A Possible Error in HBP References: Message-ID: <00ae01c58c69$3f56b930$6101a8c0@lupin> No: HPFGUIDX 132966 Amidst all these wonderful posts defending Snape, vilifying Snape, mourning Dumbledore, et.al. I wanted to move on to something a little more light-hearted as most of what I think about the book has already been covered. So here we go: With Sirius dead, Harry has no permission to go to Hogsmeade. Obviously there's reasonable explanations around this, but none are ever stated in the book (unless I just totally missed it). Perhaps after death a document of that nature is still valid in the wizarding world. Perhaps "off-screen" McGonagall gave him permission, although her general character and PoA (even sans the "threat of Sirius") would make this unlikely. Dumbledore certainly is capable of extending him permission. Nonetheless it just struck me as odd that no mention was ever made of this in the book at all. -- Jim -- hoping he hasn't already missed this in the deluge -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: 7/14/2005 From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 13:54:04 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:54:04 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132967 Well. I join all of you who are absolutely gobsmacked about the whole Snape betrayal. While I am desperate to believe that all juli17 has written means that our Severus Snape is still in Dumbledore's service... I must play devils advocate simply to satisfy my own theories. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: Is Snape really > evil, and has he for the past 18 years completely fooled the greatest wizard of > his age, Albus Dumbledore? jozoed: Well, why not? There have been blatant and steadfast reasons for us all to suspect Snape of evil doings. We simply ignored them because we couldn't possibly believe that Dumbledore was wrong. HOWEVER- at the end of OoTP Dumbledore began to show a side of humanity that we hadn't seen before. He was weaker and less 'godlike' than in any previous books. JKR has slowly been killing off any possible support that Harry would have had in the adult world. She is making it obvious that Harry will have to face the final 'confrontation' alone and off his own back. Each death has been a lesson- Siruis's death showed him, among other things, that you can't count on anything in life to be certain or constant. At the end of HBP it seemed that Harry had gained something from DD's departure aswell. His resolve and new maturity. Not to mention showing Harry that the person he most respected and admired, was in fact weak and 'human', just like the rest of us. In regards to Snape- could it not simply be that Dumbledore WAS wrong about him. That this is another lesson for Harry that even adults can be wrong. That no matter how much we look up to authority we can only truly believe in our own gut instinct. After all- it is to be Harry Potter who does (or does not) defeat Voldemort, not Dumbledore. Who's feelings for Snape should we have trusted all this time if not 'the chosen one'? JKR has told us before that she doesn't 'trick' her readers. The clues are there and it is up to us to find them. Well- (here comes an Americanism that this Brit usually hates to use)- duh! Snape = evil. You can hardly argue that he's a sweetheart deep down- can you? (It is in our actions that determines etc...) Hey ho. I'll change my mind by tomorrow! Jozoed x PS: has there been any previous mention about JKR's profound use of names ending in 'us'? Albus, Severus, Rubeus, Remus, Rufus, Cornelius, Percivus... it could go on for pages :) From gailw73 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:51:38 2005 From: gailw73 at yahoo.com (Gail) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:51:38 -0000 Subject: DD is dead, but is Sirius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132968 It is interesting to note that DD appeared after death in a portrait in his office, sleeping during H's visit to P.McG, (not ready/able to talk /animate ,yet?) However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in a talking portrait. Perhaps he is not dead, having passed the curtain while still alive? I note the difference between portraits and animated photos (imho): the photos are looped past history, like short movie clips, while the 'painted' portrait captures the continuing soul of the departed; portraits can initiate conversation and act in the present. gw73 From ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 13:45:29 2005 From: ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk (dewey_demon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:45:29 -0000 Subject: Harry a horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132969 Various people have suggested that Harry is a horcrux, and quoted the core of the prophecy - "neither can live while the other survives" - to support this. I take the opposite view, for if Harry is a horcrux, then Voldemort can only live while Harry survives. If Harry were to die, then Voldemort could also die (assuming the other horcruxes, which could well include Godric Gryffindor's sword..., have been destroyed). The prophecy seems, to me at least, to lead to the conclusion that only one can survive their conflict, when the Harry/horcrux theory implies that both survive or both die. Dewey Demon (a.k.a. David) PS - Hi, new to the group! I'm a librarian from Canterbury (UK), and I loved the scene where Pince discovered Harry's abused textbook. From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 13:55:57 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:55:57 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132970 I love Remus/Tonks together and individually, but I'm not yet ready to believe all is as it appears. I may be entirely too suspicious, but for much of the book I was convinced that Tonks was someone else on Polyjuice. I don't want that to be the case but I'm not completely convinced because depression due to Lupin-loss doesn't answer some of my concerns. There are a lot of strange things happening with Tonks in HBP. Some are: - Clumsiness lost? (jumps off Hogwart's Express w/o trouble) - Metamorph abilities MIA until the end - Patronus changes appearance - Different conversational style with Harry - Extreme reaction to Sirius' death - She's in the habit of strolling the Room of Req't corridor - She's ineffective in the battle below the Astronomy tower Many of these are explained away by 1) her sorrow over Sirius' death and 2) depression due to Lupin's rejection of her. However, that doesn't explain the last two points on the list, so I'll elaborate a bit on those. Tonks in the Room of Req't corridor: In Chapter 21, page 465 (US Deluxe ed), Tonks strolls down the corridor that the Room of Requirement is off, "There, to his utter astonishment, was Tonks, walking toward him as though she frequently strolled up this corridor." Harry is surprised to see her there and questions what she is doing. The answers are not entirely sensible, including things like looking for Dumbledore and the topic changes with Tonks asking for information, then Tonks leaves the same way she came. Frankly, what is Tonks doing in that corridor? The conversation serves no apparent purpose, except to establish that Tonks is in the habit of passing the Room of Requirement. Seems like mostly baddies and Harry are the ones who haunt that corridor. Tonks in the battle below the Astronomy tower: When Harry descends from the Astronomy tower, he comes upon the battle between Order members and DE. Part of that battle is Tonks fighting " an enormous blond wizard who was sending curses flying in all directions, so that they ricocheted off the walls around them, cracking stone, shattering the nearest window -- ". (US Deluxe ed, p 599) Harry hexes the blond guy to get rid of the chaos and blondie runs off, why was Tonks unable to do this on her own? Why isn't blondie actually attacking Tonks? These two incidents are enough to make me question if something other than depression is affecting Tonks. Tonks could be ESE and a Death Eater herself, but it seems a stretch for a half-blood. (Though, obviously she wouldn't be the first.) I think it is more likely that we have Polyjuiced!Tonks running around. Possibly after Dumbledore's death the real Tonks was Obliviated and returned. There are a couple things that I think support this idea. For one, Tonks mother is Andromeda, Sirius' favorite cousin. I would expect Andromeda to be sadder about Sirius' death than Tonks. With Andromeda (who was probably a Slytherin) as a mother it is likely that Tonks is more exposed to attack by family members than some other Order members. Quite possibly Andromeda is the one who is assuming Tonk's form, perhaps under duress from other family members (eg. Bellatrix, Narcissa). Ah, so, let the tomato tossing begin at least they are in season. kjirstem From nobradors at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 13:56:12 2005 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:56:12 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fran wrote: > Fran: > I agree 2 people had to go but Regulus is too obvious. RAB could be > the initials of 2 people, R and B. If you look at the initials on the > note, the R and B are linked together, ala partner's in crime. I believe the editors are to blame for this - I assume you have a non- british edition, as on mine, the infamous note on page 569 is signed R.A.B. in plain printing letters. The Kreacher connection is indeed interesting and the locket-thingy at 12GP - brilliant thinking! Nuri who also thought of Regulus in reading the note. From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 13:59:59 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:59:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: <20050719134347.55223.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: >> Alla: >> Sirius was right after all about Snape's fascination with Dark >> Arts. > > Oh yes, these curses were so dark, that the golden gryffindor boys > would not touch them with the 10-foot wand. Oh wait, they did. :-) Well, if we took Snape's opening speech in Potions as to show his love for that subject, what about his opening speech in DADA? :) So, here's the question: Where did James learn those curses from? [We know he knows the upside-down one--no sign he knows the cutting one, which is far worse.] The most obvious answer seems to be: he either saw them used on other people, potentially himself and/or some of his friends. There's no way that James would have gotten ahold of Snape's prized book. These curses seem like the kind of thing that poor, young, half- blooded Snape would have taught/shown to the older 'gang of Slytherins', quite possibly as a route to acceptance and toleration within the House. All of the curses created are of the kind intended to cause havoc, and the cutting curse is...ewww. James et al. are sharp kids, canonically. Probably sharp enough to figure out how to use something that they've seen and/or experienced. It's a layer of ironic complication that Snape ends up having his very own sweet little creations used against him, isn't it? > I thought that after Dumbledore treated pensieves more or less as > CCTV cameras, the argument about their subjectivity will be over. > Apparently not. It's the question of whether a memory can be tampered with or not, and whether it's obvious when one has been. DD knows that Slugworth has tampered, but is it possible that Snape did so as well, just more skillfully? I doubt it, but the cat has been let out of the bag. > So, is Harry doomed then? He did use an unforgivable > on Bella, and if he didn't use it on Snape that wasn't > for the lack of trying. Bella tells him that it's incomplete, his Crucio--he doesn't really mean it. There is a dividing line between trying to use one and actually doing it that I think is important. [It's a tu quoque argument, anyways--Harry's use is irrelevant at the moment.] I really wonder: is there, in the inherent morality of the Potterverse, something inherenly wrong about using AK at all whatsoever? I don't know. But with the discussion of how killing someone can be used to shear off part of your soul, it's very suggestive. I'd really like to not believe in ESE!Snape. There are such terribly good arguments either way. But isn't it suggestive that by far the most parallel characters in the book are Snape and young Tom Riddle? -Nora sighs and uses up #2 already in the day From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 14:02:26 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:02:26 -0000 Subject: Missing characters and Portrait!DD (was: Why I am 98.6% certain that...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132973 Caesar: > I must confess I was somewhat disappointed in McGonagall, Lupin > and the rest (Mad Eye was supposed to be a very capable Auror, so > where was he during the HBP??). SSSusan: I missed Minerva & Lupin terribly! I understand JKR gave us a rationale for Lupin's absence, but I really had wanted him to play a major role for Harry. Granted, **DD** ended up playing that role for Harry, and that was great, but still.... And I missed Minerva's presence as we got it in OoP. She was strong and fiesty and sharp- witted in OoP, and I wanted more of the same. And, as you say, WHERE the heck was Mad-Eye?? Caesar: > One final question. I noticed how careful JKR was to underline the > fact that DD's portrait was slumbering during the staff's talk > Don't you aggree that some talk between Harry and the portrait > will be a requirement for the first chapter of Book 7? SSSusan: I think, whether in the first chapter or not, there will have to be. *IF* Harry does not talk to portrait!DD, how is he going to figure out that Snape killed DD on DD's **orders** [if, in fact, I'm right about that ;-)]? And if Harry DOESN'T hear that from DD, I can't imagine he would ever discover that information on his own nor believe it if anyone else (least of all Snape himself!) tried to explain it to him. I mean, does anyone doubt at this moment, that the next time Harry encounters Snape, he isn't going to try to curse him, perhaps even take him out? I can't imagine him LISTENING to Snape... nor, really, Snape even trying very hard to explain to Harry, given their history, and given how Snape reacted to Harry at the end with that "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!" thing. No, if Harry's going to figure out Snape's still "okay," (as okay as a major prick can be, that is), then I think it's going to have to come from a talk w/ portrait!DD. Siriusly Snapey Susan From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 19 14:04:07 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:04:07 -0400 Subject: My First Comments! Message-ID: <42DD0857.8090403@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 132974 Ahh! We're open. Nearly 60 posts before I'm even out of bed, no fair. Heehee! Anyway, I can't wait to read them all before I post. I expect many folks will have similar ideas anyway. So I'm just going to summarize my main thoughts: 1. I believe Snape was acting on DD's orders. I did read the first post about an 'assisted suicide' theory, and I think that's partially right -- except DD was not wanting to kill himself because of the injuries of the potion. It was something he already knew was going to have to happen at some point, and the circumstances of that night showed him that the time was now. "Severus, please" indeed meant "Severus, I know you don't want to do this, we talked about this, but the time is now and you MUST", and indeed the 'hatred and revulsion' was for the act he was being asked to do and not for DD. Snape has always appeared as very cold, calculating, and unemotional, even when he's being 'mean and nasty'. Very rarely has he lost his cool. If he were being his 'true evil' self through these last chapters, I don't think he would have been freaking out the way he was. He might even had taken a few moments to sneer at DD first... "you foolish old man, the Dark Lord will be victorious over muggle-lovers like you, victory is now mine..." He didn't injure Harry seriously. He was thoroughly distraught over what he'd just had to do, and Harry is attacking him, and he is still *teaching* Harry... "close your mind and stop talking..." He does not attack back until Harry has taunted him about being a coward. Snape has just lost *everything* -- all his good standing, his position at Hogwarts, the trust people had for him. He killed someone he 'loved', he has to run into hiding and now depend on the evil folks for his life. A huge sacrifice to have been made, on the trust that DD knew what he was doing when he asked him to. He knows what people will think of him. He is far from cowardly over this, therefore... and so loses his cool over Harry. Even still, he only 'slaps' him and doesn't hurt him badly. 2. Draco could be redeemed still! I loved this bit. I have seen 3 possibilities for Draco before HBP, who has always been rather cowardly. 1 - The imprisonment of his father and his becoming 16-17 finally steels his strength and desire for revenge and he becomes 'truly evil'. 2 - He finally realizes the extent of the evil side and becomes 'good'. 3 - He remains a coward, continuing on the evil side but not very well, and probably dies or does something disastrous. Through most of the book, it looked like #1 had happened, which was certainly plausible but I had wanted to see #2 heh... Then Harry sees him crying with Moaning Myrtle. Crying! My impression from there was not really #3, but a bit of a blend... Then by the end, it looks like #2, where his attempts at proving himself are coming to the point where he will realize the extent, the reality of what is going on. Who know what will happen now that he and Snape are in hiding? 3. Harry himself will be the last Horcrux. DD said that he suspected LV was planning to use Harry's murder as the source of the last soul-split. When the murder went wrong, somehow the bit of soul 'accidentally' went into Harry instead of whatever he'd been planning. This is why Harry has some of LV's powers, why they have that psychic link through the scar. Harry will realize this about halfway through book 7. He will have to either destroy himself in order for LV to be destroyed, or else destroy that within him that is LV -- and lose many of his powers and abilities in the process. I loved the whole Horcrux thing, BTW. A few people had been speculating along these lines a week or so before the release, and it was really cool that they were *totally right*! 4. The book itself was rather... hollow. Someone on the chat board said that JKR wrote the movie version, without all those bulky subplots to have to cut out. That's a perfect description. Where were the descriptions of student life? Where was Hedwig? Crookshanks? Grawp is just sitting there? So many characters made only cameo appearances. So much more COULD have been done with the fear, the panic about the world outside. We never even got to see Snape and Harry interacting *all year long*, just one token DADA class. Come on, we've been waiting 6 books for Snape to get the DADA and we don't even get to see him in action? Or really see what they're doing in that class? Did the former DA members fare any better than others? We had basically one token example from each class (birds in Charms, tree stump things in Herbology, etc) but that was it. The whole character of Hogwarts was underplayed for the sake of the 'main plot', which was a shame. The book was GOOD of course, but could have been so much better. 5. The Gryffindor rubies spilled all over the floor, glistening like blood. Hogwarts itself is bleeding. Love that. 6. The thing with the PM at the beginning seemed out of place. It was a great beginning, don't get me wrong. But it was never followed up on. This is part of the #4 again. It showed that the muggle world was being affected and it introduced Scrimgeour. That's it. It well introduced the atmosphere of fear, the 'unseasonal mist' (which is never really mentioned again after they get to Hogwarts), the dark oppressiveness of the times. But once they're at Hogwarts, all we have is an occasional report of someone being called home by their parents. There was no indication of the atmosphere through the conversations, the actions of the kids. This could have been much, much more. 7. Nearly all of Draco's ideas actually came from the 'good' side. The idea for the poison, the communication via coins, etc. Wonder if he realizes the significance of that -- he got more 'help' from the good guys than he ever did from the bad guys... 8. Again regarding the first chapter... Fudge mentions there's going to be an inquiry into the battle in the DoM. So... yeah? What became of that, eh? 9. Killed off Amelia Bones in the first chapter. Any mention at ALL about Susan in the rest of the book? Hello? 10. Ships -- never bought H/G, though I know there were screams of delight from many quarters. I like the way his interest in her was brought in subtly, gradually -- the scent in the potion that reminded him somehow of the Burrow, which he didn't realize at the time was Ginny. This was a subconscious desire. And how Harry wrestled over the idea of it since Ron was his best friend. Then when he finally acts on it, Ron's all like "hey, whatever dude". ROFL. HOWEVER, I was totally unconvinced by Ginny's reciprocation. It didn't feel like Ginny to me. It was too out of the blue, too sudden. I'm glad they 'had' to break up. Heh. Looks like R/H are finally starting out... I think the implication at the end of the book is that they haven't yet 'snogged' or talked about things, but there is an unspoken acknowledgement and the talking and snogging are just around the corner. Neville and Luna? It's only barely implied, but I like it. Lupin and Tonks? Weird, but hey it could work. So much for the Lupin/Sirius shippers, eh? *giggle* Bill and Fleur -- LOVED how she showed her mettle at the end, and Molly comes around to appreciate her -- not because she likes her personality, but because Fleur obviously *truly loves her son*. That's powerful. There was a lot of shipping happening quickly, but I think it's appropriate. First, they're at the age when that happens, and second, as discussed at the Burrow, folks tend to rush relationships when they are in mortal peril... it happened in the first war and will happen again now. So now I'm wondering, now that many of our main characters are actually of age and adults, will there be more really fast weddings in the next book? Maybe even, not babies being born but announcements of expectations? 11. RAB would seem to be Regulus Black, and I suspect that the real necklace will turn out to have been one of the items stolen by Mundungus, or possibly Kreacher. I wonder though, if DD was not able to get the necklace by himself, how did Regulus? Did he have an accomplice? 12. DD dying sacrificially is VERY reminiscent of Gandalf. The whole emphasis on 'white' strengthens this too. JKR has said that "dead is dead", but there's got to be some significance to DD's connections with the phoenix. DD went up in white flames, like the dying phoenix! What if the ghostly phoenix Harry imagined he saw flying off into the blue was NOT just his imagination? 13. I bet that DD is going to leave his silver instruments to Harry. I think those are the main things I've been contemplating and wanting to throw out before even reading others' ideas. I'm sure I'll have more to say in response to others... heather the buzzard From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 19 14:05:44 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:05:44 -0000 Subject: HBP Potions book and Lilly's inherited talent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132975 S P O I L E R I have never been a Snape/Lilly shipper, however there are a few things to consider: 1) Why would a Slytherin student with the ambitions that Snape had about 20 years earlier call himself a "Half-Blood"? It is not title you would give yourself to advance your position in that house. It seems "HBP" would endear him to muggle born, (ie. Lilly) 2) The directions that Harry followed reminded Slughorn of Lilly's talent. So did Lilly and Snape swap notes on Potions, etc? 3) Dumbledore was assured Snape showed REMORSE after he caused the death of Lilly (and James who he owed a life debt to). Dumbledore may have double checked his remorse with things we have already seen. (eg: the pledge the DA members had to sign, or the Unbreakable Vow) aussie_lol gotto go now ... have fun all From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:06:49 2005 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:06:49 -0000 Subject: HBP thoughts, what else? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132976 *Amy hobbles in, waves cane vaguely at all these young'uns, especially lupinlore* Hi all--I'm an oldtimer (very active on the list December 2000 to, I don't know, late 2001, and list elf/moderator in 2001-02-03). Since 40 more posts have appeared since I started writing this one, this may be my last appearance in a while as well as my first. I don't like posting when I can't know whether I'm repeating what others have just said. I'll do my bit to contribute to the list, though, and also go the Mods one better by promising to post no more than ONCE a day. Dysis wrote in message 132912: >assisted suicide I'm leaning heavily toward the Dumbledore-wanted-(ORDERED)-Snape-to- kill-him theories, but I'm not sure I'd call it assisted suicide. That implies that Dumbledore couldn't die on his own, and I don't believe it. Even a Muggle standing at the top of a tower can throw himself off it if death is all he seeks; surely the greatest wizard of the age has even more (and perhaps less painful) means at his disposal: if not Avada Kedavra, then a suicidal version. If he wanted Snape to kill him, it seems to me that it is because *Snape* has to kill him, for reasons we have yet to learn. Or he has to be killed by *someone*, a la Aslan's "Deeper Magic" in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, though I never found the sacrificial death idea very convincing there either. But then, JKR is a Christian, has said that the events of the last two books shouldn't surprise anyone who knows the Christian story, and may well view Draco as the Judas who, like Edmund in LWW, must be redeemed. It seems like rather a big sacrifice just for Draco though. There has to be more going on. Anyway, the dynamic in LWW is different: the killers there are very willing, which if the "please" means "please kill me," Snape was not. Alla (Dumbledore 11214) wrote in message 132918: >I am also ready to bet many galleons right now, that if we ever to >see Pensieve scene again, some things were would look REALLY >different. I don't know which exactly would be different, but I >am pretty positive that something would be. We do have an idea that >person's memory CAN be modified by that very person. I am also >not put off by the fact that Slughorn's memory had thick fog in it >and that is why how Dumbledore figured it out. After all, Albus said that it was "crudely done" and that implies to me that Snape could do much better job with modifying his memories than Slughorn did. He is a genius after all. Ooh, I like?you're right, this sounds like something that will arise again. We may well see a Pensieve scene unmasked. I doubt this tool will be expended on something as trivial as making MWPP look nicer than they did in OP, personally, but then, I don't much care. James and Sirius were real jerks when they were 15 (and my beloved Remus committed the same sin by omission). Ouch, but Harry seems to have dealt with his heroes' being imperfect and I will strive bravely to do the same. I was kind of a jerk as a teenager too and now I like me. ;-) But oh, the possibilities in our magical flashback-generator containing lies! I love! Alla also wrote: >I am still looking for that mysterious being called "good >Slytherin" to emerge among Hogwarts students, because I certainly did not see >any. Did she say it would be a student? I assumed she meant Slughorn?and, if Snape isn't a baddie, is also teasing us about Snape. Slughorn certainly complexified the Slytherin picture nicely for me. Slytherins are supposed to be ambitious, right? Here's that characteristic showing up, not in bloodthirsty ruthlessness, but in namedropping and social climbing. I love. And while we don't know him too well, it seems that Slughorn is supposed to be on the right side, for all that he's irritating and a bit cowardly. I really felt for him. Don't we all censor the memories we're most ashamed of? And his regret was so palpable, thanks to JKR's showing how the damage he might have done on the grand scale of the first war hit home for him, in that his naivete and encouragement of Tom Riddle might have caused the murder of one of his favorite students (Lily). Brothergib wrote in 132920: >I have wondered if the 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes, is the >fact that Voldemort had taken part of his soul back from Harry when >he reincarnated. Perhaps this release Harry from the need to die to >defeat Voldemort. Ah! This is the neatest post-Horcrux-revelations gleam theory I've seen yet. Very nice. OK, here's my thought, which I haven't seen yet but apologies if I missed it. Two things in "Spinner's End" make me think Snape is lying through his teeth to Bellatrix and by extension to all the DEs and Voldemort. For the most part, he offers a very good explanation of the things he's done in the series so far: why he didn't come to Voldemort's aid in getting the Stone (in fact thwarted him), etc. But two sections don't ring true: (1) All that stuff about why Dumbledore isn't on to him. It all boils down to, in Sirius's words, "He's a trusting man." Bullhooey. Dumbledore has an "ironclad" reason to trust Snape. We don't know what it is, and no doubt will come up with 500 more theories by the time Book 7 arrives. No one seems to know what it is, which is going to make it very difficult for Snape to keep his skin on, though face it, the Order hasn't exactly been impressingly effective so far so maybe they'll fail to track him down and kill him too. But anyway, even Bellatrix, who doesn't want to believe that Dumbledore is truly a great wizard, is suspicious about how easy he is to fool. The obvious conclusion is that he isn't easy to fool, even by a great Occlumens like Snape. He knows exactly what is going on with Snape and it's okay by him. (2) Snape's description of Harry as thoroughly mediocre. I believe he truly hates Harry, thinks he's overrated, etc., but come on. He has watched this kid come into his own; he knows he defeated the Dark Lord repeatedly now, and has heard the details; does he really believe it's dumb luck? Doesn't he hear about Harry's accomplishments in DADA? For all Harry hasn't shone in Snape's own classes, he's not even that bad at Potions?he got an E. So why is Snape dismissing his abilities, if not to bolster the unbelievable idea that Harry isn't worth killing? Both of these weak arguments of Snape's reinforce the idea that he's a double (? I lose track) agent whose true loyalty is to Dumbledore and the Order. What say you all? Amy Z Curmudgeon (Curmudgeon by marriage, not by personality . . . most of the time) From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 14:07:42 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:07:42 -0000 Subject: HBP thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I also wish to take back my assertion that JKR cannot write villains > well. Snape looks like a great villain to me, multifaceted and all. > > Boy, I just can't forget how creepy he was through the whole > book. > He still calls himself a Prince? Time to grow up, Snape, and stop > calling yourself the name you invented when you were a kid. Couldn't help but laugh at this comment dumbldore11214 :) What about the most powerful wizard in the world- Voldemort? Would you like to tell him that he should grow up and stop calling himself the name he invented as a kid! Great post though. The fact that the book was called the Half Blood Prince really should have been an indication to us that whoever was the HBP- was an integral part of the book. Hence why I'm kicking myself that Snape and 'Prince' didn't click until it was spoonfed to me... From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:08:02 2005 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:08:02 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Posting reminders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132978 An elf wearing a brightly quilted pillowcase with purple trim wanders into the Great Hall with many scrolled parchments tucked under her arm. Quickly scanning each one, she mumbles to herself, "Top-posting again?" and "Who wrote this one? When will these young witches and wizards remember that we are not all legilimens?" Hearing something, the elf looks up and straightens the glasses perched on her pointed nose. "Oh, hello there. Are you here to talk about the latest news?" Several heads nod. "Well, I would think others would like to read your ideas. But how will they know they are yours if you don't sign your posts, don't you know?" A few faces turn lightly pink. "And how can you respond to something before the other says it? Please remember to add your comments *after* the other person speaks and not anticipate what they are saying." Tilting her head as if hearing something the others can't, the elf shuffles the parchments and disappears. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:10:14 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD's death, the Phoenix and Snape's role Message-ID: <20050719141014.89047.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 132979 Hi everyone! So, the day we were all expecting finally arrived. Was the book what you hoped for? For me it was, and much more, I absolutely loved it. I like how we got some answers to some old questions, like which DE was Snape (Yes, the Dark Lord thought I had *left him forever*, but he was wrong, Ch 2 p 29), why LV trusts Snape (Ch 29), who got 12 GP ( But first of all I must tell you that Sirius will was discovered a week ago and that he left you everything he owned Ch 3 P 49), whether when Apparating you can take someone with you (Were nearly there I can Apparate both of us backdont worry Ch 26 P 578), who Blaise and McLaggan are, why didnt LV died so many things, which Im sure well discuss over and over. But what was my biggest shock was Dumbledore dying, when I read it I froze, I couldnt believe my eyes, so I re-read it, and the words didnt change, Severus had AKd Dumbledore. But I dont think he is truly dead. Since forever there has been a relation between DD and the Phoenix: His Patronus is a phoenix, hes one of the few people whos ever had one as a pet, they understand each other, his organization The Order of the Phoenix Theres this paragraph I found very interesting: Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledores body and the table upon which he lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished (Ch 30 P 645). I remember I had read months ago something about how a phoenix is a man (a person) who after hes died, becomes a phoenix. (It was in a post last year, but its kinda hard to find). There are even some theories that say that Godric Gryffindor is actually Fawkes. So starting from there, hes my theory Dumbledore is not dead, hes merely changed, hes become a phoenix. Also, why did Severus AKd Dumbledore? First lets look at some canon: No, said Dumbledore, it is Professor Snape whom I need [] Severus, said Dumbledore clearly. I need Severus P 580 Ch 27 I havent got any options said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white as Dumbledore. Ive got to do it! Hell kill me! Hell kill my whole family! P 591 Ch 27 But somebody else had spoken Snapes name, quite softly. Severus The sound frighten Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way [] Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. Severus please Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. Avada Kedavra! P 595-596 Ch 27 So I think this means Dumbledore begged Snape to kill him, and why? First, to keep Draco from doing it himself, Second, Dumbledore knew he was about to die anyway, so better to do it quick and painlessly. Also to mantain Snape's cover. I think Draco Malfoy will change sides. Hell return to Voldemort, hell be threaten, tortured, and who knows what else, hell remember Dumbledore and his goodness, how up to the last moment he was trying to save him. He will go to Harry, Ron, and Hermione and offer his help, since Harry already has a bit of faith in him, he will allow him to do so. And the four of them, together, will continue Dumbledores quest, they will find the Horcruxes, destroy them, and ultimately destroy Voldemort. (Al references from Scholastic edition) OMG the list hs only been open for an hour and aleady 74 messaes!!! Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ctcasares at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:13:34 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:13:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_spy_at_Spinner=92s_End?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: Kemper: Perhaps I don't want to believe that Dumbledore is really dead or that Snape is evil. But I think I want to believe that Dumbledore's greatest strength is giving others a second chance: that this beautiful quality is not a `weakness'. Tyler: I don't want Love to be a 'fatal' or 'tragic' flaw either, and all of you are making me believe that maybe Snape isn't ESE! after all, but have you considered the following possibility for the 'pleading'? Dumbledore pleads not for his life, knowing that there are worse things than death, but for Snape not to destroy his own soul. We know that murder causes one's soul to be damaged or split. Dumbledore was trying to protect Draco from committing murder more for the harm it would cause Draco than from his own fear of death. I don't think DD feared death. But couldn't he have been trying to do the same for Snape? DD's pleading could have been: Severus, please, don't destroy yourself! You have the ability for such good inside. Don't throw it away! Not pleading for his life, but for SNAPE's soul. DD is still wrong in this situation, he's still made a "huger" mistake, but it strikes me as deeper and nobler that he'd die for Love and for trusting in the good of others than if he just kills himself to keep Snape in Voldemort's graces. A really crappy plan unless DD was doomed anyway. AK is an Unforgivable, and casting it successfully will damage Snape's soul. And for someone who was so fond of the Dark Arts, any soul damage could be extremely dangerous. From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 14:04:22 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:04:22 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132981 "kjirstem" wrote: > There are a lot of strange things happening with Tonks in HBP. > Definitely, something wrong with Tonks. My take is part of the Tonks we see in the book is a Polyjuiced Tonks played by none other than Cissy! BUT I do think that Tonks was allowing herself to be polyjuiced. The question is why? Also why was she referred to as Nymphadora sometimes. Was this just MM and Molly being formal? Regards, Fran not to be confused with Phlegm From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 14:07:08 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:07:08 -0000 Subject: Harry a horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132982 "dewey_demon" wrote: > Various people have suggested that Harry is a horcrux, and quoted > the core of the prophecy - "neither can live while the other > survives" - to support this. I take the opposite view, for if > Harry is a horcrux, then Voldemort can only live while Harry > survives. If Harry were to die, then Voldemort could also die > (assuming the other horcruxes, which could well include Godric > Gryffindor's sword..., have been destroyed). > > The prophecy seems, to me at least, to lead to the conclusion that > only one can survive their conflict, when the Harry/horcrux theory > implies that both survive or both die. Ah, but what if Voldemort, as we know him know, is not "truly alive"? What if he isn't because Harry is, because Harry has the last piece of Voldie's soul, and the Voldie being we see now is actually soulless? Admittedly, this causes some problems, the least of which are "How is Voldemort persisting in any state without a soul" and "Harry must give Voldemort's soul piece back and kill him all at once", etc. Lot of junk to wade through to come up with a plausible theory, I'm still working on it in my head, but I'm not ready to dismiss the idea that Harry actually has either the 6th or 7th part of Voldemort's soul somehow. hokus, whose last post came sometime last summer but cannot lurk in silence anymore From lschwaben at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:12:58 2005 From: lschwaben at yahoo.com (Rosmerta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:12:58 -0000 Subject: Snape & the Order; Snape & Lily; predictions... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132983 I'm blown away, folks! What a shock. What a bunch of shocks. JKR never fails to amaze me. I think it's clear that Snape is still on the side of good, however it may look to Harry. Even when Dumbledore first asks for Severus on returning from the cave, I think it's so Snape can end his agony - not to brew him some healing potion. IMO there would be no antidote to whatever was in that basin. Snape's reluctance over agreeing to kill Dumbledore (if it came to that) was the reason for the argument Hagrid overheard, and the reason for his look of "revulsion and hatred" as he approached his task. But if all that's true - can Snape still pass on information to the OOP? They all believe him guilty of treachery now, and he must know they do since he knows Harry will spread the tale. Will he be able to get in touch with some one person - McGonagall perhaps? - and explain that he was actually carrying out Dumbledore's orders? Would anyone believe him? What will Snape do to protect Draco? How will they manage away from Hogwarts - go ive at Malfoy Mansion? I'm sure Narcissa would gladly take Snape in, since he protected her son. With Slughorn stressing over and over again what a Potions genius Lily was, methinks many of those hints in Harry's book were originally from her. Want to bet Lily and Severus were Potions partners? Another argument for the Snape-loved-Lily theory - he would respect her ability in a field he loved. Also, Dumbledore hesitates in HBP (p. 549 U.S. edition) when Harry yet again questions Snape's loyalty, as though he wants to tell Harry something definitive - but then he simply says "I trust him." Unless what he wanted to tell Harry involved Harry personally somehow, I can't see why Dumbledore wouldn't give him the proof that seems to be so lacking. I'm glad Harry plans to visit his parents' graves. I've thought for a while now - I'll go on record with it here - that "Florence" is part of Lily's name, and Harry will find that out sooner or later, perhaps by looking at her tombstone. My theory is that Lily ("Florence" to those not intimate with her?) was the one Snape was kissing long ago behind the greenhouses in book 4. (Many reasons: the lily is the symbol of the city Florence and we know JKR likes her name games; Snape's jealousy over Lily would add tremendously to his hatred of James and then Harry; in the scene from Snape's Pensieve memory, James keeps calling Lily "Evans!" even though he wants her to date him - it seems odd he would refer to her this way, unless JKR is trying to conceal her true first name?) - OK, I may be crazy, but it's my theory and I'm sticking to it. You heard it here first! ;) LOVED: - the last 100 pages - just mind-blowing. The last sentence of the book was extremely touching. - all the Albus-Harry teamwork - all the humor (Mollywobbles! U-No-Poo! hee) - Fleur standing by her man - Harry's quick wit and the way he's maturing (CapsLock!Harry is no more, thank heaven) - Harry befriending Luna - Harry's scar isn't hurting - No more Care of Magical Creatures scenes - The way JKR deals with the prophecy (p.509-512, U.S. edition) - Shout-out to Rupert Grint(?) - p. 485, U.S. ed.) - Remus/Tonks - so nice to see SOMETHING go right in Lupin's life for once! Now don't kill either of them off, Jo, are you listening?? - Draco not being a killer; looks like there's a chance for him. I loved how Dumbledore "talked him down" - the idea of the Horcruxes - very clever - I guessed right about who the HBP was - go me! :D DIDN'T LOVE: - Not enough classroom scenes (especially DADA - how *does* Snape think Dementors should be fought?) - Not enough Neville (I wanted to see if he'd do better with a wand of his own), Dennis Creevey (I fell in love with him when he was Sorted in book 4!), Lupin, and a few others - Harry's attraction to Ginny seemed awfully sudden - No Halloween! - Dumbledore was a bit cranky in this one; it seemed OOC - Harry seems to forget all about Sirius after the beginning of the book - Several things still need some more depth or resolution: Krum and Hermione (did she ever go to Bulgaria? will he accept Dumbledore's invitation to return to Hogwarts?), Kreacher and Sirius (I swear he was dosing Sirius with those herbs Harry was studying in OOP to make Sirius more moody and reckless - you'll notice when Kreacher disappeared, Sirius was fine), the other Hogwarts professors (I want to know more about them and their lives).... QUESTIONS: - Could a Dementor kiss a Horcrux and remove the bit of soul? - Will Harry's Patronus change to a phoenix now that his last, greatest protector is gone? - Would Voldemort try to make another Horcrux since he knows the diary was destroyed? Harry could be facing five, not four. PREDICTIONS: - Kidnapped Ollivander will make Voldemort a new wand so he and Harry can duel properly - Harry will perfect his silent spellcasting as Snape urged him (however snarkily) - Harry will learn the full truth about Snape and come to see him as an ally (probably never a friend though) - Madam Pince's Animaga form will prove to be Mrs. Norris - Hogwarts will re-open and the Trio will return there at least for a while - Neville and Luna will become an item - Neville will finally get a cage for Trevor! I keep thinking about how JKR said HBP is her favorite title - and I think that's not necessarily because of how it sounds, but because of what it means: that a major theme of Harry's struggle with Voldemort is learning who he can trust to be on his side, and that Snape is one person he really has to wrestle with - not to trust appearances (now more than ever). There's much, much more to his tortured relationship with the Half-blood Prince, and I can't wait for book 7. But I'm very sad about Snape - he's one of my favorite characters and it seems clear from HBP that he has never known and will never know happiness. I'm very sad about that. From a poor home with an abusive father, to the lonely life of a geeky, intelligent outcast at school, to service with the Dark Lord, to the heartwrenching regret that sent him to Dumbledore, to teaching children he despises, to the difficult and dark life of a spy, to having to kill the man he reveres above all others, to a life on the run with the Death Eaters, to a probable end in book 7 - Snape hasn't deserved all this! JKR talks about how much she's put Harry through, but what about Snape?? Sigh. I just want to hold him and make it all better. Yeah, he'd love that! :D - Rosmerta freed from Imperius and in her right mind, what's left of it From kneazle24 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:17:14 2005 From: kneazle24 at yahoo.com (kneazle24) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:17:14 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132984 SNIP from jozoed: > Well, why not? There have been blatant and steadfast reasons for us > all to suspect Snape of evil doings. We simply ignored them because > we couldn't possibly believe that Dumbledore was wrong. HOWEVER- at > the end of OoTP Dumbledore began to show a side of humanity that we > hadn't seen before. He was weaker and less 'godlike' than in any > previous books. Kneazle24 now: I believe Snape is evil and that Dumbledore always knew. Dumbledore say of Hagrid: "I would trust Hagrid with my life." With Snape, Dumbledore always "simply" says: "I trust him." Dumbledore always uses words like a scalpel. I think Dumbledore meant that he can always trust Snape to act like Snape. I think Dumbledore had a plan, and that part of it was to have Snape kill him. That whole pleading thing! Merlin! Is there anything that infuriates snape like weakness? (Consider Neville in potions) I think Dumbledore deliberately provoked Snape. Isn't the situation just Dumbledorian? Dumbledore always believed in the power of sacrifice, love, and redemption. Snape NEVER bought into any of that. Snape has always been about power and control. Dumkbledore apparently lost, but I am postive he created a powerful magic from his own death. I wonder why he needed snape to do the deed and how its going to help destroy Voldemort. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:19:44 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:19:44 -0000 Subject: Snape and Reading Between the Lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132985 I weigh in, fwiw, on the side that believes that Snape is still in the Order: ? There's the conversation at Spinner's End in which he feigns knowledge of Voldemort's plan. He is clearly vague and leading in his commentary and reactions to Bella's comments, and there's the hand twitch during the vow. Snape realizes he is caught between a rock and a hard place and that to refuse the Vow is to add fuel to Bella's fire. ? There's the conversation that Harry overhears in which Snape is having trouble getting Draco to confide his plan. He says (US 323) "What is your plan?...If you tell me what you are trying to do, I can assist you--!" Here we can infer that not only does Snape not know the details of the plan, he doesn't even know the goal, which supports the notion that he doesn't know what Voldemort has actually directed Draco to do. ? There's also the overheard conversation recounted by Hagrid (US 405) in which Snape and Dumbledore are arguing, in which Hagrid states, "Well?I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he?Snape?didn' wan' ter do it anymore? it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, that's all?anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he's agreed to do it an' that was there was to it." I believe Snape has confided everything to Dumbledore? including the Vow--and that Dumbledore is telling Snape that he is going to have to follow through or his cover would be blown. ? Dumbledore's so-called plea to Snape, I believe, is not a plea for his life but a plea to carry out what Dumbledore knows is a terrible and painful act for Snape. I suspect that there is great personal affection between the two and that Dumbledore knows what a horrific ordeal this is for Snape. The quiet speaking of Severus's name is an acknowledgement. Harry, however, has never heard this tone from Dumbledore, and it frightens him, naturally, because he doesn't understand the nature of their relationship. And the "please" that Dumbledore offers just before the end, I think, supports the idea that the likely unspoken words to follow are `do as you have promised.' ? Lastly, Snape's reaction to Harry's taunt that he is cowardly for not killing Harry the way Snape had killed Dumbledore is telling. Snape's "face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house (US 604). Snape's scream, "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!" is an enraged and tormented reaction to Harry's ignorance: Snape has just done the bravest and most painful deed he has ever done in his life. The extreme anger, hatred, and rage Snape displays are a culmination of Snape's lifelong frustration and disappointment, not necessarily emotion directed at Harry personally. From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 14:21:07 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:21:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132986 With Dumbledore dead, will Grimmauld Place be visible to everyone now? Or because he died before revealing the secret, will stay a secret except to those who know it? Rachael who has to add that HBP might be her new favourite and definitely believes that Dumbledore is dead because the charm on Harry came off From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:25:53 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:25:53 -0000 Subject: DD asking Snape to AK him. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132987 My last post for today. This is sooo fun. DD has always been so polite and proper and yes, loving. Even when others are being so rude, he is polite. He is also a very understanding loving character. Always trying to understand others. Even going to the point of spending lessons with Harry explaining why LV (Tom Riddle) became so evil. In his conversations with Riddle he has been polite almost caring. I have a very very hard time imagining him asking someone he trusts to commit murder. To me that is so unfair. If indeed Snape is really a good guy, then DD has just asked him to commit the unforgiveable sin. That doesn't go along with DD's character. I think DD's plea of "Severus... please" can be explained. Remember only DD knew Harry was there watching the whole thing. Snape did not know Harry was hiding in his invisibility cloak. I'm sure DD was aware the whole scene of Harry's presence. Would DD want Harry to see Snape kill him, knowing Harry totally did not trust Snape? Knowing that now it will be almost impossible for Harry to ever trust Snape. What kind of future planning is that? If Snape was really a good guy, this was a very bad moment for them to carry through with this big plan. Perhaps DD was dying anyway, but Snape doesn't even wait long enough to assess the problem. He doesn't even speak. Why would he pretend to look with hatred at DD? He's always been so cool and unemotional. He could have AK'd DD without looking so hatefully at him. My final thought and post for today, I could be all wrong. But, IMHO Snape is a baddy. Snape is mostly for Snape. He had to choose a side and he may have preferred to stay ambiguous, but he had to choose and he did. We have no real evidence of Snape bringing any real valuable information to the Order, do we? Wouldn't him staying on the good side and maybe lossing his chance to be a spy be a better plus for the good guys than what has happened. I don't see that Snapes value to the Order justifies DD's death and Snape now being a murderer. It just doesn't work for me. I can't see DD asking anyone to do something so evil for any justification whatsoever. IMO Bonnie From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:29:25 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:29:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_Assisted_Suicide_Theory?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dysis" wrote: > "`Severus .' > The sound frightened Harry more than anything he had experienced all > evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. > Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out > of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even > the werewolf seemed cowed. > Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and > hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. > `Severus please '" > > Revulsion and hatred etched in Snape's face? Hatred for what? For > Dumbledore, one of the kindest and wisest men thus far in the books? > The one man who showed Severus love and trust? I would rather say > that perhaps anger was etched in Snape's face. Both DD and Snape are > good Legilimens. It is not implausible that they could perhaps > communicate telepathically as well. In fact, I am surprised that no > solid examples of this have been shown in the books yet, since > teleporting (Apparating, in this case) and mind reading are > possibilities. Dumbledore, knowing that Snape had done an > Unbreakable Vow after earlier discussions with him, would know that > if Snape didn't kill him, Snape would die ? and that would be a > horrible blow to everybody, since Snape was the Order's only spy, > and a very high up in LV's ranks as well. So telepathically, DD > asked Snape to kill him. And with anger etched on his face ? that he > had to kill the one man who truly trusted him and actually loved him > (remember, Snape lacked love when he was younger) ? and being bound > by the Vow, he did as DD asked. > > I'd love feedback! But please, do not flame me, because I know this > is a very controversial issue. > > ~Dysisgirl Now Kelly: When I first read the scene, I was shocked and full of hatred for Snape, but after having time to think, I agree that Snape acted on DD's orders (or at least at his request). I like the idea that the two of them communicated telepathically. It seems logical that they would be able to. I also wonder if DD communicated that he was already dying as a result of the potion and Snape must not risk revealing himself. When they landed in Hogsmeade, DD was already very ill and asking for Snape. Perhaps it was already too late for an antidote. If Snape were really ESE, I think he would have caused Harry serious pain before escaping. I know he says that LV wants Harry left alone for himself, but there was nothing stopping Snape from casting a few Cruciatus curses at Harry before he left. I hope that DD left some kind of evidence (pensieve?) of the reason he trusts Snape. I don't know if Harry will ever stop hating Snape, but I think the other members of the Order should know which side Snape is on. Who will be the next leader of the Order? I hope the member that we have not learned much about yet is Aberforth and that he will play a more important role. I also REALLY hope R.A.B. is Regulus. JKR did not mention him by name at least twice near the beginning of HBP for nothing. Kelly, who is still digesting the book but thinks this one is the best yet ! From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:29:03 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:29:03 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132989 "kjirstem" wrote: > I may be entirely too > suspicious, but for much of the book I was convinced that Tonks was > someone else on Polyjuice... A decidedly bizarre thought: what if Tonks were in fact Pettigrew? He has little to do in HBP, and her mousy appearance is mentioned *several* times. No, I don't actually believe this is the case, but it seemed an interesting idea. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:34:35 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:34:35 -0000 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132990 > Lupinlore wrote: > > It seemed to me that large segments of HBP were written to > > please/placate/pacify certain sections of the fandom. snip > SSSusan: > Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a > couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing > items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points and just got them out of the way? > Dungrollin: I'm not sure I agree, entirely. The amount of planning she's really done on the series is of course open to question, but you can't for a second convince me that she's only just decided what Snape was going to do in HBP. The whole situation in which we now find ourselves has been very carefully set up right from the beginning of the series. She very deliberately left certain pieces of information out. Or rather, in this case she left out one big piece of information which was what Snape was up to for the Order of the Phoenix. We've been waiting for that since book 4 came out. In order to not give us this information, she had to leave out a whole load of other stuff surrounding him, which all had to be explained in one go. We also needed to be given an idea of just how good Snape is as a double- agent (both in the DE camp and at Hogwarts), and that Voldy thinks very highly of him but might not entirely trust him. Chapter 2 also had to set up Draco's task. In short, Spinner's End explained as much as somebody new to Harry Potter books needed to know to make HBP a coherent book. I did find chapter 2 a bit clunky, but I think it's one of the ones that she's had written for a while, and it's been over-polished. I doubt that she's responding specifically to fan concerns. Dungrollin Who, like Dumbledore, still trusts Snape completely. From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 14:28:54 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:28:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132991 Rachael wrote: > With Dumbledore dead, will Grimmauld Place be visible to everyone > now? > Or because he died before revealing the secret, will stay a secret > except to those who know it? > > Rachael > who has to add that HBP might be her new favourite and definitely > believes that Dumbledore is dead because the charm on Harry came off and did another come on Harry? DD almost seemed to sacrifice himself for Harry. Surely he knew the liquid in the pensieve was some bad mojo poison. Would DD really freeze Harry so Harry could witness his death? Or was he just keeping Harry from rushing into things willynilly as usual? Sumpin's up there... Good call about the charms on Grimmauld Place.....definitely something to wonder about. Regads, fran From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 14:35:12 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:35:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: > With Dumbledore dead, will Grimmauld Place be visible to everyone > now? > who d definitely believes that Dumbledore is dead because the charm on Harry came off Very good point that I hadn't thought of and I think you actually answered your own question with your second statement. Now that DD is dead the secret spell has died with him so that 12GP is now exposed. I don't think this means that 12GP is now 'plottable'. I think that the unplottable part and its invisibility from muggles etc is part of magic that has been performed over centuaries by a succession of Blacks, but I think it means that Snape could now reveal that the location for the HQ of the OooP is at 12GP, whether 12GP could be located is another issue. I suppose this means that Harry (or someone - suggestions?) will have to make a new secret to protect that fact at once. Karen From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:43:41 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:43:41 -0000 Subject: The Resurrection of TEW EWWW (Spoilers for TLC interview) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132993 This post contains SPOILERS for the interview with JKR just posted at TLC! To quote: ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live? JKR: Mmhm. ES: Why? JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. ---------- Why would Voldemort offer to spare Lily's life? Maybe because he'd made a bargain/promise with someone that he'd try, hmmmm? The classic interview quote is: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. ---------- Why does JKR find this to be such a horrible idea? It's interesting that one of the big themes of HBP was love, and the manipulations of it. Merope Gaunt bags Tom Riddle Sr. through a love potion. The girls all try it on Harry. Sluggy gives us his speech about obsessive love and how unhealthy it can be. I submit to you now that there is more ammo than ever for the wonderful theory TEWW EWWWWW to be TREWW, in modified form. In this version, Snape had a kind of unhealthy obsessive thing for Lily, the girl who was better than him at Potions. While ostensibly switching sides over guilt at having sparked Voldie's search for them, since he was still in contact with Voldie he made his desires known. Hence, when the deed goes down, Voldemort repeatedly offers Lily a chance to live--she doesn't have to die. But, being the saintly mother that she is, she refuses, and Snape is cheated of his rewards. ----- Okay, I don't actually buy any of it, but it's a shockingly viable option yet again, and really amusing to think about. The summation of the original theory and links to posts is at: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#eww -Nora uses up post #3 of the day with a BANG, and ponders for the first time taking a sail on the Destroyer. Maybe Faith would come along, for one of her fans? From lisamconley at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:42:14 2005 From: lisamconley at yahoo.com (lisamconley) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:42:14 -0000 Subject: Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132994 Potter experts help me out- This passage has been bugging me since I finished HPB yesterday: GoF p. 651: Voldemort- "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." Does he mean Snape is and *always was* his most faithful servant??? Before HBP I thought Snape was the "one who left forever" and Karkaroff was the "one too cowardly to return." I still wasnt sure about his "most faithful servant", but now it seems that was Snape. Maybe I'm missing somehing completely obvious, But now it seems: too cowardly to return- Karkaroff? gone forever- ???? most faithful servant- Snape? Lisa From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:48:00 2005 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:48:00 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? Really Long. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. > > That Voldemort intentionally made him a Horcrux in contrast to using > the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse on him. > >I also think that Harry is a Horcrux, but an unintentional one. I believe that Voldemort truly wanted to kill Harry, thus using the Avada Kedavra, but he didn't know the charm that Lily had placed would cause the rebound. Lily played the hysterical mother in order to get Voldemort to needlessly kill her, he wanted to do the same to Harry, performed the AV and it rebounded - and instead of it killing Voldemort, it reduced him to vapor because of the six Horcruxes that he had already placed/enacted to become immortal. Hadn't Dumbledore said that he believed that Voldemort hadn't been able to enact the last Horcrux before that night in Godric's Hollow? Dumbledore was suggesting that Nagini could be the seventh Horcrux, but I believe Nagini is a red herring - merely a means by which JKR could suggest that a living being could harbor a bit of someone else's soul. I believe that when Dumbledore was talking to Harry at the end of CoS, he said that Voldemort did not mean to pass some of his abilities to Harry - but the curse had connected them. I believe that the last bit of soul that could leave Voldemort's body was transferred to Harry with the rebound of the AV, and that part of Voldemort's soul still resides in Harry. It explains a lot of things, such as why Tom Riddle's name sounds familiar to Harry upon first hearing it; Why Dumbledore sees flashes of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes; Why Harry can feel what Voldemort is feeling, etc. I also think that that explains Voldemort's inconsistent behavior with regard to Harry. He suspects that Harry is the last unintentional Horcrux, thus he harbors something of great value to Voldemort. (Why did it have to be Harry's blood that was used in the restoration potion?) But Voldemort also knows that there are several other Horcruxes out there. I don't believe that Voldemort needs all the Horcruxes to continue, so that explains why he would tell all of the Death Eaters not to harm Harry (presumably saving for himself to kill), but then might lose his temper and want to kill him/and or Dumbledore to kill him, as in the MoM at the end of OotP. It depends on how greedy Voldemort is feeling about how many Horcruxes he wants still intact. . . I think the big climax of the series will be Harry, having found all of the other Horcruxes, will find out that he has been the last one all along. What he will have to do at that point, I don't know. I think the whole Dementor angle is very interesting at this point, though. What does happen to a soul when a Dementor sucks it out of a person? Does it remain with the Dementor? I have found it to be very curious that nearly every time a Dementor has gotten near Harry, and given enough time, they have tried to perform the "kiss". I've always thought that they wanted to destroy Harry, but what if they were trying to retrieve something of Voldemort's. . .way off the point, I know. . . Sorry this was so long, but I've had my thinking cap on since finishing the book - as all of you have;-) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:48:41 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:48:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132996 Rachel wrote: > With Dumbledore dead, will Grimmauld Place be visible to everyone > now? > Or because he died before revealing the secret, will stay a secret > except to those who know it? KathyK: My feeling is that there must be *something* in the Fidelius Charm to keep the Secret being revealed if the Secret-Keeper is killed. Otherwise, it's a pretty pointless charm, isn't it? All LV would have had to do to find Lily and James, had he not had Pettigrew, is murder Sirius. Then again, we don't know, really, how it works. Maybe that's the reason Sirius suggested the switch. He *knew* LV would go after him and not Peter. If Sirius died and the Secret was not revealed, that diversion would have bought James and Lily a little more time. This coud be why Dumbledore offered to be there Secret-Keeper. Also, from HBP we learned Dumbledore and the Order were worried Bellatrix may be able to fing Grimmauld Place, had she been the one to inherit it, making the Unplottable charm Dumbledore cast (more on that later, from me, I promise) useless. Bellatrix may not have known then that GP was the HQ for the order, but she'd be able to find the house? And enter, presumably. Then she'd perhaps discover evidence the Order had been there. Kreacher would have told her Order secrets, for one, thus indicating this had been the headquarters. Wouldn't the Secret then be revealed? Or would she see no evidence? Would she not be able to discern from what Kreacher was telling her that the Order had indeed been there? How does this Charm actually protect? From Imperius and Legilimency, I believe. But what about Rachel's question? What about when the SK dies? It made sense for the Fidelius Charm to be broken once Lily and James died, as they were the Object. But again, the charm is useless for protection if all is Revealed simply by the SK's death. I feel there must be something more to this charm. There again, though, would the Secret remain hidden forever should the Secret-Keeper die? Maybe there's an expiration date, sometime after the Secret-Keeper's death, making it possible for a new Fidelius be cast with a new SK once past the expiration date? Then, there's always the possibility Dumbledore made someone else SK if he knew he was going to die. I'm just throwing this out there, though I'm not sure I believe all this Snape is Dumbledore's man stuff. I like my Snape ESE! Then again, Dumbledore could know he was going to die without knowing Snape would be doing the killing. KathyK, talking in circles already! From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 14:53:20 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:53:20 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132997 My last post for the day- lest I over cram the message board with all of my babblings-*sigh*! Right. Snape Snape Snape... so, it would appear that most of you think he's on the good side. Considering where book 6 leaves us, it is suggested that Book 7 will consist of: Harry's hunt for the Horcruxes Harry's destruction of Voldemort (or failure to do so) That is pretty much the essence of it, stripped down to its bare bones. No? The question I have then is this- if Snape is still on DD's side, what does Harry have to gain from his allegience? It's not in Snape's character to help Harry, so I can't see him going 'oh look Harry here's that Horcrux you were looking for!'. Other than postponing Voldemort's knowledge of Harry's hunt, what else can he offer to the OoTP? We already know that Voldemort is intent on mayhem and destruction. Tell us something new Snapey! I can't help but feel that his betrayal of Harrry/DD/ et al was the only way his character could have been written- otherwise he was in danger of being shadowed into obscurity with no further purpose to the cause. From rshamim at princeton.edu Tue Jul 19 14:54:54 2005 From: rshamim at princeton.edu (Rehan Shamim) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:54:54 -0000 Subject: New leader of the Order (Snape with Fawkes?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132998 Hey everyone, I've been a longtime lurker but haven't really posted much since the time when OotP came out. However, with new canon, I'm ready to roar once more... I am throwing my hat in with those who think that Snape is a quadruple agent - that is, he is really still loyal to the Order. I am writing this with the assumption he is a good guy, or else the rest of the post won't really be relevant. However, I won't go into the evidence for that, since I have seen about 50 posts already that provide ample evidence for this theory. My question is, now that Dumbledore's plan succeeded and he has successfully installed Snape as Voldemort's #2 man, what happens from here? It will be of zero use to the Order if none of them realize Snape is still on their side. Indeed, anybody in the Order is likely to hex or even kill Snape on sight, thus making Snape's highly placed position in Voldemort's hierarchy completely useless. My initial reaction upon finishing HBP was that Dumbledore probably told one person in the Order about the plan between himself and Snape that would ultimately result in AD's death. Presumably, this person would be Dumbledore's #2 man. I was thinking Mad-Eye Moody. It would make sense - we know he fought in the first war, and that he and Dumbledore are very good friends. I thought it was curious that he wasn't in this book at all. I figured it was possible that JKR left him out of the hospital wing scene after AD's death because she didn't want him to reveal to Harry (and the readers) that Snape was actually still a good guy just yet. Then, I got to thinking, what if Dumbledore never appointed a successor, because he intended for it to be Snape? Obviously Snape can't just waltz straight into 12 Grimmauld Place, because he would likely be killed by the rest of the Order. This problem remains even if Snape isn't the new leader, but just needs to return to 12GP to report back to the Order. Then I saw this quote, which provides what I believe to be support for the most amazing plot twist in the entire Harry Potter series. This is from the cub reporter interview: Peter Humphreys for BBC Newsround. - Who did Fawkes previously belong to and will he play a vital role in the next book? JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never been owned by anyone but Dumbledore. You will notice that when Harry goes back in the Pensieve in this book, Fawkes is never there, and no, I am sorry, not in this book, I take that back. When Harry has previously seen the study with a different headmaster he saw it with Dippet and Fawkes was not there then. Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession. What is the full name of the Order? The Order of the PHOENIX. (All indications point to the phoenix being Fawkes.) We saw Fawkes leaving Hogwarts at the end of HBP. JKR's quote above strongly suggests that Fawkes will have a significant role in book 7, and she makes a point of noting that he belongs to Dumbledore, not Hogwarts. When I read the quote, I began thinking of what role Fawkes could have. What if Dumbledore had ordered Fawkes to remain loyal to Snape after his death? (We certainly know Snape could use the healing effect of phoenix song with all the dirty work he has to do.) Then, Snape uses this as "proof" that he is still a good guy to get back in the good graces of the Order. They will likely believe this, as everyone knows that phoenixes don't trust dark wizards and are only loyal to the good guys, etc. Finally, since it is the Order of the Phoenix, whoever Fawkes is loyal to might be the default leader of the group. Snape does seem to know many things that the rest of the Order does not. Whether Snape uses this simply to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore, or to stake his claim as leader of the Order, it would still be pretty cool. What do you all think? Any holes in the theory? -Rehan From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 14:57:21 2005 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (Penny Brooks) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:57:21 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 132999 I'm along with those who believe that Dumbledore asked Severus Snape to kill him, as some sort of pre-agreement (along the lines of those he made with Harry). However, I believe that there is more than one reason for the request. The first is that Dumbledore is weakened, and that he must 'take himself out' before anything further can happen. In addition, perhaps in his portrait he has full use of his faculties and can serve better in this form. Just a thought. The second is that he has to protect Draco Malfoy. He knows that Draco can't kill him, and was just going through the motions throughout the school year so that Voldemort won't hurt his family. However, with the Death Eaters there in the end, Dumbledore knows that Draco will be pushed to do what he has been requested to do. So, Dumbledore has Snape do it, so that Draco will not have to do the terrible deed. This will not only save Draco's (mental, and perhaps physical) life, but also perhaps help him see where his allegiances should lie in future battles and scenarios. All right everyone: dissect, and discuss! Isn't this fun? --Penny From litalex at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:02:00 2005 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:02:00 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD15E8.8000200@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133000 Hello, cubfanbudwoman wrote: > less pushy (no harping on Bill for his ponytail), more supportive > (obviously proud of F&G's business acumen), less inclined to rants & > to bossing Arthur (who didn't enjoy "Mollywobbles" and that tender If that was supposed to be a good portrayal of Molly... Because quite frankly, Fleur had done nothing wrong except being beautiful (and French) and wanting to marry her son. Molly's treatment of the girl is, imho, absolutely horrible. So's Hermione's and Ginny's, while I'm at it. little Alex From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:04:15 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:04:15 -0000 Subject: Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133001 Lisa wrote: > Potter experts help me out- This passage has been bugging me since I > finished HPB yesterday: > > GoF p. 651: > Voldemort- "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in > my service. > One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. > One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of > course... > and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already > reentered my service." > > Does he mean Snape is and *always was* his most faithful servant??? > Before HBP I thought Snape was the "one who left forever" and > Karkaroff was the "one too cowardly to return." I still wasnt sure > about his "most faithful servant", but now it seems that was Snape. > Maybe I'm missing somehing completely obvious, But now it seems: > > too cowardly to return- Karkaroff? > gone forever- ???? > most faithful servant- Snape? > > > Lisa Tammy replies: Snape himself addresses this (sort of) in Chapter Two of HBP... Page 28 of the Scholastic edition: {Bellatrix Black speaking first} "But you didn't return when he came back, you didn't fly back to him at once when you felt the Dark Mark burn - " "Correct. I returned two hours later. I returned two hours later. I returned on Dumbledore's orders." ..... snipped passage to skip to relevant part...... "The Dark Lord's initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure you, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man. Yes the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong." So yes, Snape is the one who left forever, but Snape managed to get himself back into LV's good graces. I'm sure it took a lot of explaining and a few painful curses, but Snape managed it. -Tammy, who is carefully weighing out her three posts :) From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Tue Jul 19 15:04:43 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:04:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719150443.23796.qmail@web86201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133002 --- Jospehine wrote: > > The question I have then is this- if Snape is still > on DD's side, > what does Harry have to gain from his allegience? > It's not in Snape's > character to help Harry, so I can't see him going > 'oh look Harry > here's that Horcrux you were looking for!'. Other > than postponing > Voldemort's knowledge of Harry's hunt, what else can > he offer to the > OoTP? That's the question that plagues me. One of the biggest obstacles on the way to fully accept the Grand Dumbledore Plan theory. What can Snape offer from his position of Voldie's golden boy in book 7? Assuming that book 7 will be a quest, ending in the final duel, Snape can be useful in two ways: 1. As a punching bag for Harry to perfect his duelling technique with a Legilimens. He will turn up on Harry's path from time to time. When Harry finally manages to kill him, he'll be ready to face Voldemort. That's just too horrible to contemplate. 2. During the last stand-off, he can either push Voldemort's hand, or take the curse intended for Harry. Both too obvious. Then again, JKR set us up to expect a quest. She can surprise as again, because book 6 was not full of strategic order meetings and full-scale war operations everyone expected after book 5. Irene ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 15:04:46 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:04:46 -0700 Subject: hbp MY IMPRESSIONS In-Reply-To: <20050719141014.89047.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005201c58c73$344964c0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133003 I've been trying to read everything before posting my impressions, but the more messages I read, the more arrive! So, I thought I'd just write down my overall impressions after my first reading of the book. First of all, the big question, did Snape act with Dumbledore's knowledge, or is he truly ESE? I haven't yet seen my biggest objection posted here. We were told in great detail about how murder tears apart the soul. We know, if Dumbledore's faith in Snape is justified--ok, we know anyway either way--that as a death eater, Snape would have killed and would have a damaged soul already. I cannot believe that Dumbledore would ever have asked Snape to kill him because of the damage it would do to Snape's already fragile soul. I would think that if Dumbledore felt he had to be sacrificed for some as yet unknown purpose, he would have found another way. It seems inconsistent with everything we know of Dumbledore to think he would conspire with Snape to have Snape kill him. Also with Draco's future hanging in the balance, and Harry frozen and invisible but still in great danger, it seems a very incomplete and dangerous thing to have done. I don't for one minute believe Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him, either as an assisted suicide thing or as part of a plot. I wondered if the pleading was a case of either, Please don't reveal yourself as my man with these death eaters present, or even, please don't betray me. The saddest part of this scene to me is that if Snape is truly ESE, Dumbledore's last thought would have been that he was betrayed by someone he had trusted so completely and fiercely. And yet, I think it's a good lesson to us, as readers that Harry should learn to trust his instincts, as much as he should learn to trust some advisors. i think listening to wise counsel is crucial, but also knowing when to trust your own judgment is crucial too. I also think that if Dumbledore's faith in Snape was so seriously misplaced, that is a good reminder that Dumbledore was fallible, not omnipotent. I do believe Dumbledore is dead, that it is not an elaborate hoax of some sort. My reasons are Fawkes' lament. He may have disappeared with Dumbledore had indeed gone into hiding for some plan, but the lament was quite definite. And there is the portrait now. Am I the only one who found the parts with Riddle's background boring? I was reading the audio book, and I actually fell asleep during a lot of those scenes. I have already discovered that I have missed important information by falling asleep and will endeavor to stay awake during my reread. I have a theory about Mr. Olivander. Could it be that Voldemort captured him or something because of the problem of the brother wands? Just a thought I had. I agree with some who have said that it seemed JKR dealt with some of the issues in fandom in a rather abrupt, let's get it out of the way, sort of fashion. Sirius' estate, the ships, Sirius being cleared. But I think that the book had so much other important stuff to deal with, that maybe this was the best way to deal with it. I was greatly amused by the first chapter, mostly because i don't think any of us had predicted it. We all speculated about what this long delayed first chapter would be, and it ended up being so funny. My overall impression: i loved this book. It may end up being my second favorite, right behind POA. I was glad not to have to deal with angry Harry. I thought it was well written, held together well, with enough surprises to have me saying "What!" I would have liked more Lupin, Luna, Neville, and where the heck was Moody? I was grateful not to have any of Grawp, or at least very little. Loved Slughorn! Loved Fleur in the end and the way she and Molly came together. Ok, those are just my first impressions. I'm sure more will come to me after reading the rest of the posts here and rereading the book. Wow, it was fantastic! Sherry From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:05:43 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:05:43 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133004 Alina wrote: > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is Harry's > scar... > Part of the reason I think we may be correct is that did you notice > (you might not have if you have the American edition, I haven't seen > it), the illustration of Marvolo's Ring when it's split down the > middle, the crack looks just like a lightning bolt. anthyroserain: The ring cracked, I believe, when the Horcrux was destroyed... This might indicate that Voldemort, by killing Lily (the last death to split his soul) attempted to make Harry into a Horcrux but failed-- the power of Lily's love and protection actually caused the Horcrux to destroy itself as it was being created. But then again, this would mean that Voldemort didn't ever intend Harry to die (Harry would become a receptacle of his soul), which seems unlikely, given the Prophecy. From josturgess at eircom.net Tue Jul 19 15:12:51 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:12:51 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jospehine" wrote: > My last post for the day- lest I over cram the message board with all > of my babblings-*sigh*! > > Right. Snape Snape Snape... so, it would appear that most of you > think he's on the good side. > > Considering where book 6 leaves us, it is suggested that Book 7 will > consist of: > > Harry's hunt for the Horcruxes > Harry's destruction of Voldemort (or failure to do so) > > That is pretty much the essence of it, stripped down to its bare > bones. No? > > The question I have then is this- if Snape is still on DD's side, > what does Harry have to gain from his allegience? Ah yes I too worried about Snape-lack in HP7. Then I thought, Voldy must know that DD was on to his HRX ploy (why? because of the very visible injury DD sustained). He may well up security on his remaining HRXs which double agent Snape could then undermine to assist Harry, or not.....potential meetings, near misses, misinterpretation of actions etc etc Completely off topic I wonder what would happen if a Dementor kissed Prime!Voldy? Regards Jo I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron. HBP From carodave92 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:01:07 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:07 -0000 Subject: Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133006 Lisa: > Does he mean Snape is and *always was* his most faithful servant??? > Before HBP I thought Snape was the "one who left forever" and > Karkaroff was the "one too cowardly to return." I still wasnt sure > about his "most faithful servant", but now it seems that was Snape. > Maybe I'm missing somehing completely obvious, But now it seems: > > too cowardly to return- Karkaroff? > gone forever- ???? > most faithful servant- Snape? Carodave: One, too cowardly to return - Karkaroff One, who I believe has left me forever - Snape One, who remains my most faithful servant - Barty Crouch JR, disguised as Professor Moody (polyjuice potion) and in place at Hogwarts That was my take on it anyway. Carodave, who is still reeling from Snape's betrayal of DD From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:02:26 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:02:26 -0000 Subject: Snape in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20050719121843.49808.qmail@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133007 Second post for the day because I wanted to add a few things in response to the argument that Dumbledore wouldn't ask anyone to commit murder. I want to suggest that this was not a definite part of the plan, i.e Dumbledore was hoping that neither Snape nor Draco would have to kill him. Dumbledore and Snape have discussed the plan to find the horcruxes, and the plan Voldemort has to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore decides that IF HE CAN, with Harry's help, he will find all of the Horcruxes before Voldemort wants him killed. That is the best possible scenario. That's why Dumbledore is racing against time so to speak; he knows there is a limited amount of time to find the horcruxes before Voldemort's patience with Draco and Snape runs out. However, the fact remains that they have to allow for the possibility that IF Draco attempts a direct attack BEFORE the horcruxes are found and fails at the task, then Snape MUST kill Dumbledore. Also, they may have agreed that it is better that Draco not have to do it. A case of there being no right choice, only the least wrong. When Dumbledore gets back to the town pub, and asks Harry to get Snape, perhaps at that point he is hoping that Snape will be able to save him, give him an antidote (however small the chance is). After all, Snape knows more than anyone about potions and he saved Dumbledore the first time when he destroyed the horcrux and got his withered hand. Also, the trip has been secret; no one but Snape knows what Harry and Dumbledore are doing. BUT when Dumbledore hears about the dark mark over the school, he realises this is Draco's trap. There is *no more time* for him to find any more horcruxes, and no chance to get to Snape secretly. This is where the backup plan has to come into action; Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore when it comes to the point, Snape comes in, and there is no time for him to hesitate, for the reasons I outlined in my first post. Dumbledore pleads with him to go through with what he must now do. Snape does so. This is rambly because it is very late, hope it makes sense! Mari. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:16:53 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:16:53 -0000 Subject: Harry: The UNintentional Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133008 > vmonte: > I loved how Dumbledore mentions that a horcrux can live inside a > living creature (Najini). I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux is > inside Harry---the scar. I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of > somehow ripped out the piece of soul that was living in Voldemort and > transfered it to Harry. And maybe it was the merging of these two > souls that caused the explosion at GH. I also think that Snape was at > GH and that he suspected what happened. During CoS Snape whispers the > Serpentsorcia spell to Draco during the duel. Why did Snape do this? > At this point in time there was no reason for anyone to think that > Harry had any of Voldemort's power. I think that Snape suspected that > Harry might and he tested him. When he realized that Harry was a > parceltongue his suspicions were confirmed. (By the way CoS was the > book that JKR almost introduced us to the HBP.) > > Vivian I, too, think that Harry/Harry's scar is the last Horcrus, but that this was not LV's intetion. Here is a summary of my hypothesis (to add to the other posts on the matter): LV intended to kill Harry because of the prophecy. LV intended to establish another Horcrux, so he killed James Potter. (I'm not sure why Harry's death alone would not be sufficient. Perhaps the magic to establish a hurcrus requires the person being murdered to understand about death...pure speculation.) Lily's death was not needed for LV's intentions, but it was for Lily's. Either the Potters alone or along with someone else (RAB perhaps?) uncovered LV's use of horcruxes. This was the ancient magic that Lily used...somehow (and I don't think there is canon for this yet) her sacrifice made Harry the horcrux for the last part of LV's soul, thus making it impossible for LV to kill Harry. As another poster hypothesized, for Harry to kill LV, he has to impart Tom Riddle's soul back to him (making him mortal, perhaps?) and then kill him. However, as Brothergib hypothesized, DD's look of triumph when finding out that LV used Harry's blood may be because the use of Harry's blood released him from needing to die. This would make more sense if Tom Riddle's soul were in Harry's scar and not in Harry himself. After all, it was always his scar that hurt. Overall, HBP quite possibly was my favorite of the series thus far. Julie From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Tue Jul 19 15:13:18 2005 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:13:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] - R.A.B = Regulus Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133009 This is a post I posted on another forum. Thought I would repeat here. My post on Regulus Black. Only read if you have read book 6: Quote: To the Dark Lord I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B. A cute little note to be sure, and it would appear that the true recipient never received his lovely letter since Harry has it. First of all, lets look at what the canon says about who could have written this, then analyse this little note: Quote: 'Harry, I found something out this morning, in the library ...' 'R.A.B.?' said Harry, sitting up straight. ... 'No,' she [Hermione] said sadly, 'I've been trying, Harry, but I haven't found anything ... there are a couple of reasonably well-known wizards with those initials - Rosalind Antigone Bungs ... Rupert "Axebanger" Brookstanton ... but they don't seem to fit at all. Judging by that note, the person who stole the Horcrux knew Voldemort, and I can't find a shred of evidence that Bungs or Axebanger ever had anything to do with him ...' Pg. 592-593 Uk Hardback edition. >From what Hermione says, we can assume that the author knew Voldemort. We can also assume then, that through Hermiones research, the person with the initials is in no way famous for anything amazing, so they haven't done anything amazing to get into library books. Now, lets look at the note again: Quote: To the Dark Lord I know I will be dead before long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B. To the Dark Lord: It has been pointed out, by Harry himself with his conversations with Snape during Occlumency lessons, that only Death Eaters refer to Voldemort in the respectful manner of 'the Dark Lord'. So we can come to the conclusion that not only the author knew Voldemort but was very much likely to be a betraying Death Eater. I know I will be dead long before you read this: Hmm... So, whoever did this is hinting that it was done a long time ago; keep this in mind. but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can.: Not that smart, is he/she, this person? Read this carefully. Whoever done this is under the ignorant impression that the pendant he or she has stolen is the only one. He or she doesn't say 'one of your real horcruxes', he/she says 'THE real Horcrux'. Keep this in mind too. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more.: Whoever has said this, seems to expect death either way. Look at this, 'I face death in the hope...'. Whoever this is feels that he/she will die anyway and instead of allowing themselves death in a vain manner he or she has done this to give their death meaning. R.A.B.: Hmm... JK said in a recent interview 'I left a mystery at the end, but it is easy to work out' (something of that nature anyhow) How can it be easy to work out if these possible initials have not graced our pages before? Now, I think you all know who I think this is, no one other than Sirius Blacks younger brother: Regulus Black. What do we know of Regulus? Quote: 'He was younger than me,' said Sirius, 'and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded.' 'But he died,' said Harry. 'Yeah,' said Sirius. 'Stupid idiot ... he joined the Death Eaters.' 'You're kidding!' 'Come on, Harry, haven't you seen enough of this house to tell what kind of wizards my family were?' said Sirius testily. 'Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?' 'No, no, but believe me... ..But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.' 'Was he killed by an Auror?' Harry asked tentatively. 'Oh, no,' said Sirius. 'No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemorts orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime service or death.' OotP, pg 104, Uk Hardback edition. Right, this is information we have on Regulus then. According to the Lexicon, Regulus was perhaps 19 years old when he died. Sirius also said in the book it was 15 years ago that he did die. Looking back at the note he would 'have died long before' Voldemort got to read it. Also, notice JKs writing in this passage here. Sirius isn't talking in fact but in speculation. I think we have come to know that JK doesn't just use speculation instead of fact for no reason. Sirius does talk factually about Regulus being a Death Eater however. With that in mind the note calls Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'. Regulus fits the initials, fits the situation, fits because there is hardly any fact based around him. As for his motivations, look at Adams T post since we discussed it before. Number 1) is my favourable motive. There is also the fact that it would be quite nice for Harry that Sirius brother had attempted to help the cause. Also, Regulus was called an 'idiot' by Sirius. So, Regulus is immersed into the dark arts but is not absolutely great at it. Liking the dark arts would ca use Regulus' discovery of the Horcrux, but not the initiative to work out that Voldemort would have done something slightly different i.e. have many horcruxes. At the moment, I don't think anyone else fits the bill that has been mentioned in the books thus far. Carealotclouds From bundy at morainevalley.edu Tue Jul 19 15:01:27 2005 From: bundy at morainevalley.edu (regalusblack) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:27 -0000 Subject: But Snape *Had* to Kill Dumby--Unbreakable Vow? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133010 Weeee! Very excited to see the posts so far--what a great book to discuss . . . I was re-reading the chapter "Spinner's End" yesterday to see again what exactly Cissy was asking Snape to do for the Unbreakable Vow. She *does* ask (and I don't have the exact quote, sorry) that should Draco fail in his mission, would Snape complete it for him? Snape says yes. So Snape killing Dumbledore can't be used as proof of a betrayal--that vow would force Snape to take that action. I tried to look back at the chapter where Snape does Dumby in, to see what kind of evidence there would be of Snape struggling with this in any fashion, but through Harry's eyes Snape looks so full of rage--but rage at Dumbledore, or at being in this situation? Did he, even though he tells Cissy, really know what Voldy's mission for Draco was, or was he just feigning that since Bella was there? As Snape runs for the entrance to the grounds, he reflects Harry's attempts at hexes and curses, and there's one moment when he yells, "No, Potter!" And again, I wondered about that too--whether it was Snape voicing his frustration about his predicament. If he is still on the "good" side, I would imagine his situation would be extremely difficult to overcome--who would believe him now? I just don't think this particular part of the story is over yet--I tend to agree with another poster who had a tough time believing Dumbledore could be wrong about Snape (even though he's been shown with a proclivity for trusting folks in such a fashion). regalusblack From maggieanndavies at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:19:17 2005 From: maggieanndavies at yahoo.com (maggieanndavies) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:19:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133011 "Penny Brooks" wrote: > I'm along with those who believe that Dumbledore asked Severus Snape > to kill him, as some sort of pre-agreement (along the lines of those > he made with Harry). However, I believe that there is more than one > reason for the request. > Maggie: I'm in the "Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him" camp too. Your point about protecting Malfoy is well taken. Let's not forget that Voldemort absolutely wanted Draco to kill Dumbeldore, perhaps fulfilling some other prophecy we don't know about yet. And...forgive me I don't have the book handy, didn't dumbledore tell Malfoy (maybe Harry) "there are things worse than death." Ultimately, I think Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.... From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:27:04 2005 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:27:04 -0000 Subject: HBP: Assorted threads in one...(LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. > > > > That Voldemort intentionally made him a Horcrux in contrast to using > > the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse on him. > > > > From a Hopeful theorist; Mr Ogilvie who is waiting to see if his > > brilliant 11 and 12 year old kids think the same thing. > > It is possible that Voldemort did intend to kill Harry and then use > an item that he knew was in the house (Godric's Hollow) and thus > fulfill his wish to use items belonging to the founders! > > However, I have thought about this (as have you) and the use of Harry > as a Horcrux does make a lot of sense. The question that then raises > it's head is - Does HArry have to die for Voldemort to be defeated? > > I have wondered if the 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes, is the > fact that Voldemort had taken part of his soul back from Harry when > he reincarnated. Perhaps this release Harry from the need to die to > defeat Voldemort. My take on this was that Harry WAS (not, you will note, "is") a Horcrux. LV needed that bit for his Rebirthing Party, it's what allowed him that rebirth. Perhaps a cleverer mind than mine can explain to me how Harry can kill LV (who, presumably, has some microscopic portion of his own soul in him, now that he has undergone rebirth) by dying. It also seems unlikely to me that Dumbledore couldn't detect that Harry was a Horcrux once he figured out the whole Horcrux thing. I'm pretty much agreeing with Boolean. Mind you, as I was discussing this offline with another member (I'll let her out herself) we were struck by Hagrid's quote WAY BACK at the beginning (Ch. 4, I think) of Book One: "Some say [Voldemort] died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." Which led us to speculate along the direction of the of what were LV's precautions against mortal death...eventually revealed to be the Horcruxes. This has led me to think there may be a lot more to Hagrid than we thought. He may be something of a goofball, and he is nowhere near being a qualified wizard, but there is an instinct there that seems quite powerful. Just a thought. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: > `But Snape AK'd Dumbledore ' > > Yes but was Snape's intention to kill behind the Killing Curse. He > has the power, but does he have the will? How many times have we > seen any kind of spell/charm/hex/whatever fail because the intention > wasn't there, even though the incantation was stated? Here's how it > could have gone. > > Snape says AK outloud though not meaning it, and he uses a nonverbal > (nvbl) spell to throw Dumbledore into a Death-like Sleep. This spell > is one developed by Snape, maybe with some assistance from > Dumbledore. We have already seen throughout the book that Snape, the > Half Blood Prince, has a knack for potion improvement and spell > creation. I found it interesting that, after only an offhand reference in Book 1, the "Draught of [the?] Living Death" gets a lot of airplay in Book 6. (So does a bezoar, which came from teh 2st grilling Snape gave Harry...odd, that.) > But Dumbledore pleaded for his life. > > Dumbledore: `Severus please ' > > `Pleaded' is Harry's perspective. But instead of pleading for his > life perhaps he was pleading for Snape to follow through with their, > Dumbledore and Snape's, plan. One perspective on the "Severus...please..." which I haven't heard is the more cajoling sense, i.e. the disbelieving "Please, don't do this to yourself" > Other reasons why Snape may still be working for Dumbledore (dead or > alive): [snip] > 2. Dumbledore could have died, making the plan easier for Draco, had > Snape not saved Dumbledore after Dumbledore retrieved the ring and > suffered the curse that left his arm burnt or withered. The plan was for Draco to *kill* Dumbledore, not to hang around and wait to see if Dumbledore died of the flu or from choking on a sandwich. Snape swore to do it if Draco could not. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Samatha Scattergood [Is this not a GREAT name or what?] for Waterstones - Which is your favourite member > of the Order of the Phoenix? > > JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of > the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that > you have not yet met properly and you will ?? well, you know that they > are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you > will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that. > > > vmonte: It's got to be Aberforth. We know that he is an Order member > because he was in Moody's picture. There is a tradition in mystery novels (I'm particularly thinking of Sherlock Holmes) in which the other brother is a talent surpassing the "famous" one, but for a number of reasons, never chose to exercise them. Sherlock always maintained (and there *is* corroborating evidence to this effect) that his brother Mycroft, was --by far--the superior talent. But, rather than becoming a consulting detective, he preferred to sit at his club and dabble occasionally. This is what I believe we shall see of Aberforth. Now, to review... I found this book, not necessarily BETTER than Book 5, but definitely more enjoyable to read, much like I enjoy my palate more than, say, my liver but that doesn't mean one is more important than the other. In fact, as I was zipping along reading it (10 nonstop hours) I kept thinking "This is very enjoyable, a little TOO enjoyable...I'm being set up...I KNOW IT." I'm sure that RAB is Regulus A(lphard?) Black. I'm surer than ever that Harry will "die" by crossing the veil, Odysseus-like. One thing that Harry must do, besides gather Horcruxes like daisies, is become a more proficient wizard. He learns quickly enough when taught properly, but he is not someone who has yet "invented" any magic. We know that Snape (as the HBP) and LV both have and it's a cinch to assume Dumbledore has also invented spells and enchantments. Harry has not done this yet and, mark my words, he's gonna hafta. I don't have a problem believing in ESE!Snape. My take on the Occlumency lessons led me to have a very jaundiced view of Snape and his intentions. I don't have anything invested in Snape being ESE or NonESE. I think the existence of nonverbal magic AND the reinforced mentions of the Draught of Living Death means there is a small, improbable chance Dumbledore is still alive, somehow. I agree with Entropy's read of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine...nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me..." I am curious as to why Fortescue and Ollivander disappeared...and what became of them. More later. -Joe in SoFla From litalex at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:26:35 2005 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:26:35 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD asking Snape to AK him. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD1BAB.9070507@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133013 Hello, bbkkyy55 wrote: > really a good guy, then DD has just asked him to commit the > unforgiveable sin. That doesn't go along with DD's character. Yet he made Harry promised to leave him to die and to feed him that potion/poison when the time comes. little Alex From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 19 15:16:48 2005 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danie Arnt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:16:48 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133014 Alina wrote: > > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is > > Harry's scar... > > Part of the reason I think we may be correct is that did you > > notice the illustration of Marvolo's Ring when it's split down > > the middle, the crack looks just like a lightning bolt. anthyroserain: > The ring cracked, I believe, when the Horcrux was destroyed... > > This might indicate that Voldemort, by killing Lily (the last > death to split his soul) attempted to make Harry into a Horcrux but > failed--the power of Lily's love and protection actually caused the > Horcrux to destroy itself as it was being created. But then again, > this would mean that Voldemort didn't ever intend Harry to die > (Harry would become a receptacle of his soul), which seems unlikely, > given the Prophecy. This idea occurred to me as well--that Harry was the last horcrux. That would mean that he would have to die in order for Voldemort to be able to die. Or, he would have to somehow be broken to destroy the piece of Voldemort inside him. Maybe Neville has a role to play after all..... witherwings From 5682574 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 15:27:04 2005 From: 5682574 at sbcglobal.net (Pat) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:27:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133015 The trio's out of character behavior was the thing that turned me off the most in HBP. Now I think I see what that's all about, and I've stopped hating this book and Jo. Love potions seem to be a thread in this book. The twins are selling them, which means there were some at the Burrow before they were transferred to the store. The gang has an opportunity to buy them when they visit the twins shop. Slughorn makes a batch, and he's not careful, because Draco stole some Polyjuice Potion from him. We learn that Tom Riddle was a product of Love Potion. We are told the effects of Love Potion, and that it doesn't produce true love, but an infatuation and obsession. We also learn that Ginny never gave up on Harry liking her. She can bold face lie to Molly. She has the guts to ram a commentator at a Quidditch match. She thinks that anything is possible if you have enough nerve. I think she has used Love potion on Harry and also Hermione to get Hermione away from Harry, and make Harry fall for her. Michael and Dean were pawns in her plan, which was spawned by Hermione's advice. This would explain Harry and Hermione's out of character behavior - they are infatuated and obsessed. It would also explain Ginny's odd reactions or lack thereof, in her break ups with Michael, Dean and Harry. We also learn that Filch is responsible for screening things coming into the castle, and a potion in a perfume bottle got by him, or something like that. Someone else pointed out that Ron was doubly cured by Love Potion antidote - he got over Lavender as well as Romilda Vane. Another person pointed out that Hermione being obsessed from Love Potion could explain her lack of SPEW comments. I expected a speech to Harry about Kreacher at the least. I think Molly's favorite Christmas song is a clue about this. It's called "A Caldron Full of Hot, Stong Love". That says Love potion to me. The lyrics were "I'll boil you up some hot stong love. Oh, my poor heart, where has it gone? It's left me for a spell...and now you've torn it quite apart. I'll thank you to give back my heart!" It goes with Harry saying his time with Ginny was like part of someone else's life. I think my ship of H/Hr still sails, it's just been pirated temporarily. So I'd call this the "Pirate Ginny" theory. Further, I know Jo wants to include twists ala Jane Austen, and I think this is one of the bigger ones in HBP. I'm hoping what Ginny has done comes out as early as Bill and Flem's wedding. Then Hermione can go back to being Harry's partner in finding the horcruxes, as it should be. Maybe Fred and George will ask how the potion worked out for her, or declare that some of their stock is missing. Now, I can't wait for book 7. --Pat From litalex at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:32:37 2005 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:32:37 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: =?windows-1252?Q?Dumbledore=92s_spy_?= =?windows-1252?Q?at_Spinner=92s_End?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD1D15.6090804@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133016 Hello, tylerswaxlion wrote: > I don't want Love to be a 'fatal' or 'tragic' flaw either, and all > of you are making me believe that maybe Snape isn't ESE! after all, No, Dumbledore's tragic flaw isn't love, but like numerous supposedly wise old men before him, hubris. To think that he knows best, master-planning everything... little Alex From carodave92 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:35:42 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:35:42 -0000 Subject: Locket and Regulus Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133017 I don't have my book with me...but in OoP when they are cleaning out the drawing room, isn't there mention of a heavy locket??? Perhaps returned to the Blacks with Regulus' things after his murder, if no one realized the significance (and how would they)? We know from Sirius that LV didn't murder Regulus himself - so he wouldn't have seen the locket. carodave From pastafor5 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:44:59 2005 From: pastafor5 at yahoo.com (pastafor5) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:44:59 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133018 wrote: Then the treachery of > Snape in chapter 2, I sat there thinking "I can't believe this is > being revealed in the 2nd chapter! From that moment on I changed >my opinion. I had always believed him to be on the side of >Dumbledore, but I read this whole book believing him to be ESE. By >the end where he killed him I was sobbing and ended the book >absolutely hating him. > > After I'd calmed down a bit though I wondered. Does this really > prove that he's ESE? We saw DD insist that Harry carry out DD's > orders no matter what. (see 1) When DD said "S >everus please " I took this to be pleading for his life, but was he >in fact pleading with him to kill him so as to not blow his cover? >Was the argument Hagrid overheard between them, Snape wanting out >of posing as a DE and begging DD to release him from that task, but >DD refusing? Was Snape's outburst an indication of the >agony Snape was having to go through because he'd had to kill his >friend and master, and to hide amongst and to behave as those he >despises then to have his bravery at doing all this seen as >cowardice? Did Snape save Harry or just obey Voldemort? Pastafor5: I've been going throught the same arguments in my head since finishing the book. Was Dumbledore begging Snape not to do it, not to commit murder, or was he pushing Snape to follow some previous order? The one key moment that makes me think (sadly) that Snape did this out of loyalty to Voldemort rather than Dumbledore is when Draco tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to his mother. Dumbledore says it isn't true and that Snape just made that up to get information from him. But we know that it was actually true. If Dumbledore didn't know that, then it appears Snape must have been loyal to Voldemort instead. Anyone see any loopholes? I hope so - it breaks my heart to think that Snape could do that to Dumbledore. But then again, JK doesn't hold back on showing that there are true evils in the world. From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 19 15:47:55 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:47:55 +0100 Subject: Gneral Book Six comments Message-ID: <42DD20AB.1020107@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133019 Firstly - this is the best book so far for me. I loved every minute of it - even if I could have wished it had taken me longer than four and a half hours to read it. There were some nice flashes of humour (Go back and punch Percy if you want to Ron It'd make us feel better too). I did wonder if I'd stumbled on to a romance novel at a couple of points but *shrugs* having said that I always thought those pairings were where she was going and I thought it was believably written. Harry - yes I know you're getting good marks thanks to the book, kid, but honestly have you leanred *nothing*? Just occasionally *please* listen to Hermione before I start praying JKR will voice all our frustrations and have her smack you over the head with a cauldron. Neville - growing into himself definitely. Loved McGonagall helping him pick his courses too. Didn't really like or dislike our new Potions Professor - even despite the memory thing I thought he was kind of pointless. Loved the way Harry got somewhat 'Captain Ahab' over Draco but (and it sort of got lost in all the grief over Dumbledore) he was pretty much essentially proved right on all counts - although I would second Ron's point about there being no rule that only one person has to be plotting against you. Congratulations JKR you made me like Fleur - and can I just say, Bill, with the dangerous job and the earring and everything with wolfish characteristics added should have the girls falling all over themselves even despite his injuries. Remus/Tonks - well I'm not against the idea in principle but it seemed rather sprung on us. I realise Harry was so focussed on Draco that he was unlikely to have picked up any clues but no I didn't lik the way it was done. Harry - needs to learn to pay attention to other people. His two best friends were on the verge of self destructing, he noticed Tonks was unahappy in a kind of peripheral way but never bothered to act on it, same with Hagrid, Myrtle told him about a boy crying in the bathroom and he didn't even bother to ask who ... I know he has some important stuff going on but frankly he seems to have lost almost all his compassion/feeling for others, if he goes on like this I'm not so sure he will have the capacity to love the AD hept on about. He's turning into a very isolated, by his choice, kid, thank goodness for Ron and Hermione or he'd be screwed. Quidditch - fantastic, please don't leave Hogwarts Harry because I really enjoyed all the quidditch interactions and he wasn't makng a bad captain. The Twins - as usual *rocked* Snape - I'm not saying this to disparage anyone but I genuinely cannot see how anyone could have read the climactic confrontation between the DEs and AD and interpreted it in any way other than Snape doing what Dumbledore had asked him too. I'm not trying to say 'oh anyone who thougt that is clearly an idiot' or anything I just can't see that it's at all ambiguous.I always thought Snape was a sexy beast, not a particularly nice person mind, but sexy, but now I have an immense amount of respect for him. To do something that painful, that hard, because it was necessary (which in a nice parallell was of course the same idea as AD making Harry promise to obey his orders no matter waht) and at no little cost to himseld if AD's comments about fracturing your soul are to believed, is unbelievably courageous. I wanted to smack Harry so much when he called Snape a coward - to my way of thinking Snape's actions are, with the possible exception of Lily's sacrifice, the single most courageous act we've seen in the books. I liked the way she had Hagrid reveal that they were arguing and Dumbledore was insisting he carry through with something and we were supposed to wonder what he was up to only to turn it around here and realise that they were probably taling about Draco's orders and Snape's vow. I would give good money though to know exactly what the effects - short and long term - of that liquid AD drank on the island were. I suspect that rather than poison it was something which would have sapped his will and made him malleable or controllable by Voldemort, AD would no doubt have found that to be a fate far worse than death. Unfortunately I now think Snape's fate is sealed and his death in book 7 just became a certainty. Just a feeling. Loved the Potions book too btw - just shove a bezoar down their throat, I'm amazed I didn't twig that it was Severus' at that point. Snarky and ultimately practical too - antidotes take time to brew and you can't practically carry 50 or 100 with you. Just carrying one bezoar is a hell of a lot more useful in general. Wonder if he'd have chosen to pass on that piece of information if he'd known Harry would use it to save one of the banes of his life. Still he doesn't have to teach Ron anymore so maybe he wouldn't care :) Oh and (I keep remembering stuff I loved!) the scenes with the PM. I would assume that's the chapter she's been trying to fit into the books for a while. She kept all the names out of it but it just screamed Tony Blair to me :) The Minister of Magic is a typical politician and I wanted to applaud Harry when he stood up to him. Twice. And something that just occured to me .... so there's now part fo the Forest Hagrid can't enter is there? I wonder if that will become important. I am now more eager for the next book than at any point so far in this series. Half-Blood Prince kicked aome serious ass. K From kiva9035 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:31:25 2005 From: kiva9035 at yahoo.com (anon9035) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:31:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Prophetic Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133020 Brothergib wrote: ------------------------------------------------ Albus Dumbledore planned his own death. He understands that Voldemort would never even consider that someone as powerful as Dumbledore would sacrifice their life as part of a masterplan. -------------------------------------------------- I must say, I completely, and wholeheartedly agree with the fact that Albus Dumbledore will not plead for his life. At first, I really thought that he was killed by the hatred Snape carries for him. On second reading, after having some time to digest the events, I feel that it has to be a ploy that was set up from the beginning. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard not only because he is most skillful in his magic, but also because his love for the well- being of others surpass anyone else. Recall that he told Harry to run if and when the occassion arrives- -or in other words, under the command of Dumbledore. I cannot believe that Dumbledore will have this unwavering faith in Snape if he and Snape had not discussed beforehand. Snape accepted the unbreakable vow with Narcissa because he wanted to protect the Phoenix and Draco at the same time. Ultimately, this will be the deepest betrayal for Voldemort. --kiva From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:43:19 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:43:19 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Dumbledore's_spy_at_Spinner's_End_?= References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133021 Neat argument. I can only see one flaw. If Snape, for whatever reason, had commited himself to killing Dumbledore, then he had to do it. Logically he might be able to fool Voldi, but not himself and thus suffer whatever happens to those who break vows. Chris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caesian at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:47:10 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:47:10 -0700 Subject: What Would Dobby Do? Message-ID: <0CD2E7F8-AB10-4A51-BECD-CFD4C97240C2@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133022 In light of many excellent summaries already posted, I thought I would add one small idea. Is Dobby (or, are Dobby and Kreacher) still following Draco? In other words, did the elves witness DD's death? Were they present during the fight between members of the order and the DE's? And, most important, did they follow Draco, and Snape, to wherever they sought refuge after fleeing Hogwarts? From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:51:39 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The SHIPS and why I think they were there In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719155139.99281.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133023 Some people have complained of HBP being "too shippy" and I can certainly see where they are coming from. I believe there is a reason (other than fan appeasement) that SHIPS were so prominent in this book. Firstly, I really do believe that JKR wanted to get it "out of the way" - to make known what ships were going to sail. This means that (hopefully) the audience will be concentrating on things more important than "who will Hermione end up with" (well H/H v. R/H was the biggest debate) when reading book 7. Secondly, I think it's possible (wouldn't put money on it) that Ginny and Harry's love for each other (I think we are meant to take it as love) will play a part in book 7, even if Ginny doesn't much. This is where Remus/Tonks comes in. This showed us Tonks losing her abilities and such and told us the reason why. I'm thinking that Hary might be on the weak side because he's denying himself love. I once read a book where a woman could heal people. She didn't know how, she just could. Then she met a guy and fell in love, but she broke up with him to save him from the stigma of being attatched to her (she was reguarded as the town witch). Then, when she tried to heal someone she couldn't and the person died. And she came to realize that it was love that allowed her to heal people and that denying it was blocking her ability. So, I'm thinking something like that *could* happen in HP. Not saying it will, just that it's a possibility. Rebecca __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:51:40 2005 From: christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com (Christopher Nuttall) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:51:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133024 I doubt it. By any measure, Crouch Jr is the most faithful one - he did try to get Voldie back, after all. That leaves the other posts between Snape and Karacoff...which means that...? It's possible that Snape was never mentioned at all, but then we have an empty slot for no reason at all. Chris Alternate History: http://www.changingthetimes.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: lisamconley To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:42 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? Potter experts help me out- This passage has been bugging me since I finished HPB yesterday: GoF p. 651: Voldemort- "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." Does he mean Snape is and *always was* his most faithful servant??? Before HBP I thought Snape was the "one who left forever" and Karkaroff was the "one too cowardly to return." I still wasnt sure about his "most faithful servant", but now it seems that was Snape. Maybe I'm missing somehing completely obvious, But now it seems: too cowardly to return- Karkaroff? gone forever- ???? most faithful servant- Snape? Lisa Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cayres1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:50:22 2005 From: cayres1 at yahoo.com (cayres1) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:50:22 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133025 witherwings wrote: > This idea occurred to me as well--that Harry was the last horcrux. Cayres: I believe that Voldemort wanted Harry as his horcrux not only because of the prophecy, but because he had something of Slytherin's, something of Hufflepuff's--and Harry was his "something of Gryffindor's." I don't think we would have had so much about the founders and their progeny if Harry were not descended from Gryffindor. Now some other thoughts on the book. Though I thought it was great, I was disappointed in JKR's clues. Usually it is possible, though incredible difficult, to figure out the mystery in the book. This time it was impossible. (Except for figuring out who was the HBP, which I am proud to say I did). There were NO clues that Rosmerta was under the Imperius, unless you count the fact that she was usually not behind the bar. Which, if I remember correctly, was not unusual for her. But I haven't finished rereading, so I may be wrong. I also thought the two cabinets being connected and allowing a passageway between them was completely out of left field, to use an unashamedly American cliche. (It means it came out of nowhere). We have had no precedent for this sort of thing, unless you count the portraits, and that doesn't seem to be in the same category. I thought Hermione confunding, and then dating, McClaggen was a bit out of character. And I thought Ginny was horrible to bring up Ron's lack of "experience" in front of Harry! But, in general, Ron was the least likable main character in this book. I didn't like all his rude hand gestures, and the whole Lavendar thing was just so unpleasant. And if he's in Gryffindor, he should be brave enough to tell her he's "just not that into her." I thought the idea of the young Tom Riddle alone in the cave with the two kids was THE most frightening things in the books so far. Though the Inferi are a close second! I really, really, really don't think this book is appropriate for children under 11 or 12. My little brother (who, at age 20, is not that little) made me laugh when he said: "Voldemort's a redneck!" (Though, to be perfectly correct, it's his mother's family, not him). Though I did wonder how they could speak Parseltongue to each other without really involving snakes. Or maybe Harry has trouble speaking Parseltongue without looking at a snake because he's inexperienced? Perhaps they just don't want to leave their snakes out of conversations. :) Everyone has already expounded on my Snape theories. I will simply say that I agree that Dumbledore made him do it, and that I trust him 100%. Cayres From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:57:53 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:57:53 -0000 Subject: But Snape *Had* to Kill Dumby--Unbreakable Vow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "regalusblack" wrote: >Did he, even though he tells Cissy, really know what Voldy's mission > for Draco was, or was he just feigning that since Bella was there? I doubt that he knew anything about Draco's mission. I think that as a good spy, he took an opportunity to get inside info on something that was clearly important, perhaps important enough to wager his life on. He lied to Cissy and Bella, lied through his teeth, in hopes of playing the distraught Narcissa for information. There's no way Voldemort trusted Snape enough to tell him everything. He went through with the Vow for the same reason--he thought the information he might gain was probably worth his life. Even if he couldn't get it from Narcissa, Narcissa would surely tell Draco that Snape would back him. With luck, that might induce Draco to spill something important. I think Draco did eventually let spill that his job was to kill Dumbledore. I think it happened right before Snape's argument with Dumbledore, and I think that Dumbledore ordered Snape to go ahead and kill him, Dumbledore, when the time came. Why? My guess is that Dumbledore was dying anyway. He was almost finished telling Harry what he needed to know about Horcruxes, and he wasn't going to be around much longer to help him further anyway. Why not use his death to ingratiate Snape with Voldemort? Voldemort can't possibly really trust Snape at this point. Yeah, he tells a good story, and yeah, he occasionally gets useful information, but there's always the possibility that Snape is Dumbledore's man. But if he kills Dumbledore, he must be loyal. Snape is almost certainly finished as a spy for the Order--they can't possibly trust any information he gives them now. But he can fill another role, he can be a time bomb. He can bide his time, and when the moment comes... Amiable Dorsai From lindydivaus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:54:41 2005 From: lindydivaus at yahoo.com (Eileen Forster Keck) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD's Plan & Favorite Misc. In-Reply-To: <1121782449.3574.34402.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050719155442.6401.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133027 kneazle24 said: "Is it just me, or was it completely obvious that Dumbledore planned his death for at least a year? "Who could put up that barrier to the tower in Hogwarts except the headmaster? He didn't want anyone interfering. "I also think DD would not have sold his life cheaply. He sacrificed himself, **I wonder what sort of ancient magic he created?**" I think that perhaps he is also shoring up the magic Lily used to save Harry. It's made quite plain that he _loves_ Harry very much, and is markedly touched by Harry's love for him. AND... 1. He let Snape teach DADA; that left Potions open. I'm quite sure Dumbledore knew above Snape's old textbook, and that he'd not be inclined to pass it to Harry! Also, of course, there's the fact of the jinx/curse on the DADA teacher...that would leave Snape "free" to carry out DD's murder, via DD's request. 2. Other things I thought wonderful: --ALL the romantic relationships. I spotted most of them, tho' Tonks & Remus surprised me. T & R however, I found utterly believable, esp. when she rounded on him at Bill's bedside. (Wasn't McG's comment terrific?) --Loved Fleur's "vindication". --Ginny's marvelous; sort of like Bill, but with all the crazy inventiveness & verve of Fred & George (and wouldn't I love to see THOSE two w/girlfriends!) 3. *grin* The garden gnome Christmas angel! 4. Utterly favorite quote: RE: DD (Slughorn: "Oh, there you are, Albus. You've been a very long time..." DD: "...I was...reading the Muggle magazines. I do love knitting patterns." *snort* -Eileen (Who was rather shocked to realize she shares the name of Snape's mother!!) From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 15:56:31 2005 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (Penny Brooks) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:56:31 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133028 Alina wrote: > > > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is > > > Harry's scar... witherwings: > This idea occurred to me as well--that Harry was the last horcrux. > That would mean that he would have to die in order for Voldemort to > be able to die. Or, he would have to somehow be broken to destroy > the piece of Voldemort inside him. Maybe Neville has a role to play > after all..... Well, although this didn't occur to me until I read it in everyone's posts today, it makes total sense--Kudos to all the nimble thinkers in this bulletin board! After all, Harry does share a lot of specific characteristics with Voldemort--the Parseltongue, for one--and they do have a rather interesting psychic connection (re: nearly all of OOtP) If Harry indeed had a piece of Voldemort's soul in him, of course it would explain a lot. Penny Bee From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:08:41 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:08:41 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133029 Karen:"Then the treachery of Snape in chapter 2, I sat there thinking "I can't believe this is being revealed in the 2nd chapter! From that moment on I changed my opinion. I had always believed him to be on the side of Dumbledore, but I read this whole book believing him to be ESE. By the end where he killed him I was sobbing and ended the book absolutely hating him." "After I'd calmed down a bit though I wondered. Does this really prove that he's ESE? We saw DD insist that Harry carry out DD's orders no matter what. (see 1) When DD said "Severus please " I took this to be pleading for his life, but was he in fact pleading with him to kill him so as to not blow his cover?" This and all the "Snape is actually good" theories depend on a great many things being predictable and known, actually far more than is credible. In order for this to have been a plan, then ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco had been taken into the Death Eaters and given the task of killing Dumbledore. ** Snape had to know that Narcissa would come see him and ask him to swear the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore. He further had to know how that would fit into future events. ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco wouldn't have the nerve to go through with it himself, that he wouldn't just bust a magical cap in Dumbledore the first time he had his back turned. ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to keep Harry from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes on him after this plan worked out. Harry will never believe anything about Snape again ? Harry will try to kill Snape the first chance he gets. If Snape came to Harry and tried everything he could to persuade Harry, it would do no good. Snape couldn't convince any of the Order, either. It's hard to figure out how Snape can be any good to the Order or Harry after this. I believe Dumbledore did not seek death, but he didn't shy away from it, either. He knew the torch was about to be passed from him to Harry, and was determined to ensure Harry survived. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Dumbledore understood this, and I don't think he tried to play puppetmaster to this degree. The puppets don't cooperate. He did prepare and ensured his ultimate weapon survived. Jim Ferer From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 16:17:21 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:17:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005b01c58c7d$58106fc0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133030 Jim wrote: This and all the "Snape is actually good" theories depend on a great many things being predictable and known, actually far more than is credible. In order for this to have been a plan, then Sherry now: This also reminds me of another thing that causes me not to believe in the good Snape theory. In chapter two, he told Bella that it was his information that led to the murder of Emiline Vance. From that moment, I stopped believing in unlikable but basically good at heart Snape. I didn't want to believe Dumbledore could be so wrong. I didn't buy Snape returned to the good side over his remorse over the death of the Potters either. Codswallop. He hated James, and in the scene with Harry after murdering Dumbledore, he called Lily a mudblood. doesn't sound like he loved her all that much to me. When we arrived at Dumbledore's death, when Snape came rushing onto the roof, my friend was cheering, and I said, Oh crap! i agree with Jim, that the idea that it was all an elaborate plan of Dumbledore's implies knowledge of too many other things, and being able to absolutely count on everything falling perfectly into place to make it happen. Sherry From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Tue Jul 19 16:06:29 2005 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:06:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Locket and Regulus Black Message-ID: <19a.381857b2.300e7f05@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133031 In OotP, chapter of 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' a 'locket' is mentioned. Page 108 uk edition: 'There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleep, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open...' Also, AdamT pointed out that why would JK show Mundungus stealing from the house? Could it be that Mundungus now has the pendant, unbeknown to him? A lot of coincidences surrounding Regulus and the Horxcrux I think.. --CareALotsClouds From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:17:48 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719161748.72106.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133032 --- nrenka wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin > wrote: > > >> Alla: > >> Sirius was right after all about Snape's > fascination with Dark > >> Arts. > > > > Oh yes, these curses were so dark, that the golden > gryffindor boys > > would not touch them with the 10-foot wand. Oh > wait, they did. :-) > > Well, if we took Snape's opening speech in Potions > as to show his > love for that subject, what about his opening speech > in DADA? :) > > So, here's the question: > > Where did James learn those curses from? [We know > he knows the > upside-down one--no sign he knows the cutting one, > which is far > worse.] > > The most obvious answer seems to be: he either saw > them used on other > people, potentially himself and/or some of his > friends. There's no > way that James would have gotten ahold of Snape's > prized book. I disagree. That spell was nonverbal. Unless they snuck into the Slytherin common room with the invisibility cloak, they had to have "stolen" that information from Snape somehow (actually, that counts as stealing too). They can't have just "picked it up" Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:17:50 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:17:50 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133033 (Actually I don't have time to make a truly complete and exhaustive case against Snape today, nor would I expect anyone to read such a tome today of all days, so I'll try to just focus on a few key things) Okay, all you guys who still think he's one of the good guys, consider the following: In the muggle torture scene at the World Cup in GOF, *one* (and only one) masked DE performs the curse that turns Mrs. Roberts upside down and reveals her underwear. No incantation is heard. Silent levicorpus, anyone? And who would do that? Mind you, this would be years after he had supposedly reformed. Mr. Weasley later explains that the DEs used to kill and torture muggles just for fun. (Muggles, after all, pose no threat to LV so it's unlikely he would issue orders concerning them. And they would be irresistible targets for a pure sadist out for a thrill, as they cannot defend themselves.) Snape has left his DE tendencies behind, you think? He no longer tortures the helpless just for fun? Does the name Neville Longbottom ring a bell? What more inviting target could there be for a pure sadistic bully? (There are numerous examples of Snape's gratuitous cruelty in the books, but let's focus on this one to because it's probably the worst and the most long running.) Still not convinced? If magic is a science, then it should be subject to scientific proof. What is required to make an Unforgivable Curse work? We have the answer from Ms Unforgivable herself, Bellatrix. "You have to mean it...You have to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it." Proof that this is true comes from Harry's unsuccessful attempts to use the Cruciatus curse. Even though in both cases he was in rage, the greatest anger he had ever known, he still lacked the hatred and sadism needed to project the curse. In fact I would go so far as to say that if Harry ever is able to perform such a curse, it will mean he is lost. Snape, on the other hand, has no trouble casting the curse, and he instantly succeeds. Think of it as a lab test. If the effect is death, the cause must have been hatred. That is the way Unforgivables work. And just in case we miss this point JKR writes that he had an expression of "revulsion and hatred" on his face as he aimed the curse at Dumbledore. Okay, I said I would keep it brief. Those who disagree, please make your arguments. Explain how Snape could have used the AV curse without truly hating Dumbledore. Explain who else would have turned Mrs. Roberts upside down. Explain why he has tormented Neville over the years when there was nothing to be gained from it but a sick pleasure in watching his squirm. Explain how someone who revels in that kind of pleasure could be anything other than a Death Eater at heart. Your witness, counsel. Inkling From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 19 16:19:36 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:19:36 -0000 Subject: Snape is Innocent! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133034 And I can prove it... Dumbledore didn't die of an AK. Here's the description of his body: >>Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping. Harry reached out,straightened the half-moon spectacles upon the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth with his own sleeve.<< AK kills instantly, far more instantly than natural death. There's no time to close your eyes and assume a peaceful expression. And there's no bleeding. The Riddle family and Cedric die with their eyes open. So does Sirius. Their expressions showed either horror or surprise. If Dumbledore had been betrayed would he have looked peaceful as he died? Avada Kedavra leaves a sign only when it fails. As Fake!Moody told us, if the whole class pointed their wands at him and said the words, he doubted he'd get so much as a nosebleed. The spell failed folks, and that proves Snape didn't mean it. He had to try, of course, because he was vowed to carry out the deed Draco was tasked to perform, ie *try* to kill Dumbledore. There was quite a bit of emphasis on *trying* in Spinner's End. Only one prepared to kill a living Being with as much indifference as Fake!Moody used to dispatch the spiders could have gotten the AK to work, me thinks. Dumbledore believed that Snape would fail, because he trusted that Snape was indeed no longer a Death Eater. His plea was for Snape to trust that this was so, and attempt to carry out the vow, so that Snape would not die and could live to save Draco, and to carry out the hunt for the *real* spy. I think Dumbledore had a plan to save himself, though I am not sure it worked. A combination of phoenix tears, bezoar and perhaps one last vial of the Elixir of Life might have saved him, if he had time to take them on the way down. Time will tell. I've taken the liberty of forming an acroynm: SAD DENIAL II. (Supposing Albus Dumbledore, Dire Events Negated, Is Actually Living, Is Irresistible.) Dumbledore couldn't give Harry the proof of Snape's repentance, because it *was* proof. It would have convinced Harry and, unfortunately, Voldemort as well. Since Harry is not and never will be an Occlumens, that would be bad news for Agent!Snape. I am proud to report that ESE!Lupin theory is alive and kicking. Lupin as liason to the werewolves is confirmed, he considers them his equals, he provides some more information on dementors, and he tells Tonks he's too dangerous for her. I'm a happy woman today. But poor Tonks! Yeah, I think it was her all the time. It's the metamorphmagery that made her clumsy, IMO, and with her powers in abeyance, without the protean body that made learning balance difficult, she was fine. It may be that now she knows what it's like to be stable, she'll be less of a klutz in the future. Pippin From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 16:17:11 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:17:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > The trio's out of character behavior was the thing that turned me > off the most in HBP. Now I think I see what that's all about, and > I've stopped hating this book and Jo. > > Love potions seem to be a thread in this book. ... > She can bold face lie to Molly. She has the > guts to ram a commentator at a Quidditch match. ... > Another > person pointed out that Hermione being obsessed from Love Potion > could explain her lack of SPEW comments. I expected a speech to > Harry about Kreacher at the least. > > I think Molly's favorite Christmas song is a clue about this. It's > called "A Caldron Full of Hot, Stong Love". Brilliant. You've made my day. I was so frustrated by their behavior - I knew it didn't really add up. So many clues must add up to something. But, I think you have to consider that Ginny really is a plausable mate for Harry. Harry needs Hermione in his fight more than he needs Ginny, but Ginny is so much more *like* Harry. Also, he's never shown any romantic interest in Hermione. As difficult as it is for me to get my head around the R/H pairing, Hermione's actions toward Ron were persistent, crafty, and patient. Those are much more Hermione's trademarks than the effects of a love potion. Ron's feelings were telgraphed well in advance. --mg_mchenry From redavis23 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 16:14:17 2005 From: redavis23 at hotmail.com (ruth_emily_davis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:14:17 -0000 Subject: Possible use for the Black House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133036 This isn't my own theory it is my friend's... On the assumption that R.A.B. is Regulus Black You know how JK Rowling said that we would be happy that Sirius was killed. Well if we think that Regulus Black tried to take or destroy the Horcux then we can hope that he is semi on the good side and we can also believe that he has a lot of knowledege that the dark lord wouldn't like him to have...probably why he was killed. After all didn't Dumbledore tell Harry that "Voldemort didn't even tell his death eaters about the horcuxes"? Well Harry gets left this house of Black and all it's possessions...so what if there was something of Regulus's there...say a picture, or a book, etc. that explained how to get to the other horcuxes or something? ruth_emily_davis From caesian at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:27:49 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:27:49 -0700 Subject: Lord Voldemort's Vanishing Cabinets Message-ID: <044ABB79-C468-426B-8AE7-9F4834363A25@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133037 One more little item. We know when the vanishing cabinet at Hogwarts was broken. It was the same black and gold Vanishing Cabinet that was smashed by Peeves at Nearly Headless Nick's suggestion in CoS. We also know that the other Vanishing Cabinet, it's twin, was at Borgin and Burkes at that time, as Harry hides from Draco inside (although leaving the door cracked). Thus, until the moment that Peeves destroyed the cabinet at Hogwarts, we might assume that there was a functional conduit between B&B and Hogwarts. It may have been there for a very long time - although unknown to many. Draco has to 'figure it out' himself, for example. Given Voldemort's history at B&B, I would venture to guess that he, at the very least, knew of this conduit. He may have created it. Further, that he visited Hogwarts after his own graduation on more than one occasion, and perhaps without Dumbledore's knowledge. Voldemort could have searched the school, hidden something there (perhaps within the chamber of secrets) or left behind traces of his passing. (Did he interact with the Bloody Baron, or the Grey Lady in an attempt to find something of Ravenclaw's?). Finally, I would venture to guess that Harry's quest in Book 7 will lead him back to Hogwarts to follow this trail. From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 16:33:38 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:33:38 EDT Subject: The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers Message-ID: <15d.54ea17b0.300e8562@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133038 S P O I L E R W A R N I N G ! Brief Chronicles posting: I was glad to see this morning when I checked my email that most of us have all felt the same way about the three main theories I'd discussed with my friends and family in real life this weekend. Though they're being beaten into the ground on their own individual threads, I thought it would be nice to put them all together here with some thoughts to go along. 1. Harry is the final horcrux. -- This is difficult to support in cannon. Well, more difficult than the other two, I would say. All I have to go on is that Harry and LV share an abnormal bond with each other, and JKR made a point to show that living things can be horcruxes (Nagini). 2. R.A.B. is Regulus Black. -- I find this easier to confirm than #1, simply because it feels so much like the usual JKR clue in which she expects us to remember something she's mentioned in passing. Uncle Alphard _http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-a-c.html_ (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-a-c.html) could easily be the namesake for the A. initial. Brand, Rudolf from the same link is an R.B. name, but this person is not likely to be significant, since he is a Quidditch person, and unrelated to LV as far as we know. So are the only other two R.A.B. names on the Lexicon. This leaves us with Sirius' brother, who we all know left the DE and was killed (presumably) for it. Also, I think it's worth noting that if Regulus isn't important at all, then there's not much point in mentioning him so many times throughout the past two books. In addition, the note R.A.B. left for LV is a bit in-your-face, which, at least in my observation, is in keeping with the Black family personality. (see Sirius Black and his mother's portrait for instances of this). 3. Snape is a good guy. -- This one is easy to confirm, in my opinion. Here are my specific cannon references (these aren't all there are, of course, but these are what I could find right away -- I'm using the US HBP edition, by the way): Page 28: "I have been able to pass information on Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix ever since!" <-- This is only indirect evidence, but it begs the question, What information has been passed, and if any of it has been good, why hasn't LV made a move based on Snape's information? Page 36: "You will need your wand, Bellatrix." ... "And you will need to move a little closer." <-- This hints that Snape understands the charm better than a fellow DE, which may mean that Snape has made another vow before. Possibly with Dumbledore? Hm... Then who would have been the Bonder? Page 36: "'And should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail...' whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), 'will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?' There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide. 'I will,' said Snape." <-- This could have been just for drama, but this is a clear moment of Snape's reluctance. Page 259: "'Luckily Professor Snape was able to do enough to prevent a rapid spread of the curse -- ' 'Why him?' asked Harry quickly. 'Why not Madam Pomfrey?'" ... "'Professor Snape knows much more about the Dark Arts than Madam Pomfrey, Harry.'" <-- Dumbledore brushes this off, but it shows he and Snape have likely discussed the necklace, etc., and that Snape is helpful. Why does Dumbledore not speak more frankly with Harry about the Snape situation? Chapter 15: I read Snape's scene with Draco as Snape acting, although it could be read either way. Page 359: "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet." <-- Dumbledore knows something Harry doesn't know. Page 523: "'You need the hospital wing. There may be a certain amount of scarring, but if you take dittany immediately we might avoid even that... Come...'" ... "'Apparently I underestimated you, Potter,' he said quietly. 'Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic?'" <-- Madam Pomfrey can heal someone after a curse, if Draco was sent to her wing, which means Dumbledore may have had a different reason for employing Snape after the necklace. Page 549: "'I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --'" ... 'Professor... how can you be _sure_ Snape's on our side?' Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.'" <-- This hints that Dumbledore has more of a reason to trust Snape than he is telling Harry. Page 595: Dumbledore pleads with Snape, horrifies Harry, Snape shows revulsion and hatred, "Severus... please..." <-- Dumbledore has told Harry not to fear death. It is out of character for him to have been pleading for his life. So instead we can assume he's pleading for something else. Draco? For Snape to do something he might not want to do? Then the revulsion and hatred on Snape's face... are they revulsion and hatred toward Dumbledore, who is asking him to do something he doesn't want to in killing and in returning to the DE as a full-time spy? I think it is also to remember that Dumbledore didn't want to go to Madam Pomfrey. Again, he wanted only Snape. Chapter 28: "'Fight back!'" ... "'Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!'" ... "'Kill me like you killed him, you coward --'" "'DON'T'" ... "'CALL ME COWARD!'" <-- This seals it for me. Snape won't fight Harry. He even guides him, much as a teacher would, during the battle. And finally, he is furious, even in pain, at being called a coward after what he did. Finally, the end of the book is Harry's confirmation that they must continue to trust and obey Dumbledore even after Dumbledore's death. Harry has never been able to see eye-to-eye with Dumbledore regarding Snape, but if we the readers are to believe that Dumbledore should be trusted even now, then I see no reason why we should accept that Snape is a true DE. Now, what do all of these mean? 1. If true, does this mean Harry has to die? Or, did LV take back his horcrux at the end of GoF? I don't think LV took his soul fragment back when he returned in GoF simply because Harry's connection to LV only seemed to increase after that, not decrease. (dreams in OotP, etc.). So, does Harry have to die? I don't believe so. The ring didn't have to be destroyed, although it clearly had to go through some traumatic (as of yet unexplained) work to remove the horcrux. This leads me to believe that, if Harry is the final horcrux, there is no reason he should have to die to defeat LV. He would, however, have to go through something potentially painful and dangerous to whatever person aided him in the process. Ron? Hermione? Snape? 2. If true, is it possible Regulus is still alive? What is his purpose in the story? Where would he have hidden the locket? Who helped him get it? Kreacher? 3. You ask me, this one just is true. :) There's no talking me out of it. Okay! Before I leave you, here are my other random thoughts and questions that just popped up fewer than 24 hours after finishing the book. lol So they aren't quite baked yet. :) -- Draco... going good or bad? -- Horcruxes are in places that have significance to LV -- What did the drink do to Dumbledore? -- What is up with this breaking-up-with-Ginny nonsense, when Dumbledore specifically told Harry that love is the most important thing? That's it! :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lizvega3 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 16:33:24 2005 From: lizvega3 at aol.com (lizvega_2) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:33:24 -0000 Subject: Bella's got a Horcrux.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133039 Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, although, I wouldn't doubt it! Voldemort gave the diary to Lucius Malfoy, one of his most trusted DE's. He didn't tell him what it really was, only that it would reopen the Chamber. In Spinner's End, sorry don't have my book for a direct quote, but Bella makes the comment the Voldemort has always trusted her with his most precious- and then she stops. His most precious, what??? If he followed suit after he gave Lucius the Diary, it would make sense that, perhaps, he gave other, though surely not all as the locket was placed in the cave, horcruxes to his most trusted followers. Lizvega From qtrimble2004 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 16:27:51 2005 From: qtrimble2004 at yahoo.co.uk (qtrimble2004) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:27:51 -0000 Subject: The DADA Curse Implications Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133040 Whilst its not explicitly confirmed it is strongly implied that DD knew about the one year curse on the DADA position and has done for a while. This means that he knew whomever took that position would (for one reason or another) be unable to keep it longer than a year. Furthermore there was a strong chance (each year) that the teacher may even lose his/her life! This has huge implications. I can see why this wouldn't bother DD in the case of Lockheart and Umbridge but what about Lupin and Snape? This could be proof that DD expected Snape to do what he did (he certainly must have expected that Snape would no longer be DADA professor at the end of the year). Perhaps it is also why he was reluctant to give it Snape for so long. But what about Lupin? Was he at least warned? Possibly DD guessed that his leaving would be related to Black's escape and/or his being a werewolf and not the death of Lupin but still, the fact remains he was 'outed' as a result, and we were quite lucky that that was the full extent of his suffering. I can see Lupin agreeing to take the risk if he was warned but otherwise this seems quite dangerous to me. I am sure there are further implications of this, too. --qtrimble From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Tue Jul 19 16:41:25 2005 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (Edis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:41:25 -0000 Subject: magical developments and queries Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133041 OK so what magic have we had revealed in HBP? The obvious new spell is the Unbreakable Vow. How this actually works we don't know. But is it a Dark Art? If not, could Snape have taken the Vow with Dumbledore, giving some magical grounding for Dumbledore's faith in Snape? And what is the effect of taking incompatible Vows? And what happens to the other participant in the vow when one party fulfills? Is Narcissa under some kind of magical debt to Snape now, akin to the life-debt Wormtail apparently owes Harry? And what happens to the 'Bonder'? Are there consequences for this witness when the act is carried out? If there was a Dumbledore-Snape bond who was it and what does it mean for that person? Another thing is our developing knowledge of Pensieves. Presumably it would be possible for Snape to have placed his memories in a pensieve and Dumbledore to have checked them out, including checking for tampering. Going a bit further, if the Pensieve with Dumbledore's memories still exists maybe Harry can enter and find out some new angles to events. Way back in PS/SS there was a Potions lesson from Snape on treating Werewolf bites. Will Hermione remember, or look up her old notes? Time to look back at other casually mentioned spells (the Bezoar might not be the only bit of magic to re-appear). Stopper death, anyone? Someone needs a good supply of Felix Felicious now... No more time travel if all the Ministry time-turners were destroyed at the end of the fight in OOTP? That at least removes some plot temptations. Did Snape really invent all the innovations recorded in the handwritten notes to the Potions book, or did he crib at least some of these from Lilly Evans? Its Lilly who gets all the praise from 'The Slug' for being a brilliant Potions student, never a mention by him of her fellow-student Snape, who must also have been a student of 'The Slug'... Edis From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:44:46 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:44:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's spy at Spinner's End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133042 Christopher Nuttall: > Neat argument. I can only see one flaw. If Snape, for whatever reason, had commited himself to killing Dumbledore, then he had to do it. Logically he might be able to fool Voldi, but not himself and thus suffer whatever happens to those who break vows. Amiable Dorsai: He would die. So what? He's been risking his life all along. He probably thought the information he could gain was worth the cost. My only problem with the argument is the idea that Dumbledore would willingly die just to save Draco from becoming what he will probably become anyway: a murderer and a Death Eater. Dumbledore is too valuable for that, even if he'd otherwise be willing. No, I think that Dumbledore was already dying, and chose to use his death to cement Voldemort's trust in Snape. A Snape that Voldemort trusts fully (or as fully as he does anyone) is well-placed to do maximum damage when Harry comes calling to kill Voldemort. Amiable Dorsai From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 16:46:36 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:46:36 -0000 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133043 > > SSSusan: > > Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book > > felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list. "Fan complaint > >#1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan > > concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those > > questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING > > BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had > > created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points > > and just got them out of the way? > Dungrollin: > I'm not sure I agree, entirely. The amount of planning she's really > done on the series is of course open to question, but you can't for > a second convince me that she's only just decided what Snape was > going to do in HBP. The whole situation in which we now find > ourselves has been very carefully set up right from the beginning > of the series. > I did find chapter 2 a bit clunky, but I think it's one of the ones > that she's had written for a while, and it's been over-polished. I > doubt that she's responding specifically to fan concerns. Jen: The hard part of this issue, is which came first, JKR's Plan or fan response??? It's not hard to believe the two will coincide quite often. Jo is incredibly creative and witty, but her choice of genre and myth aren't new. The way she twists it is. But that leaves a lot of space in the middle for the rest of us to fill in, and we will fill in with similar thoughts sometimes. It's like when JKR said that watching the POA movie gave her chills because a couple of parts seemed to mirror things in later books, so much so that fans would think they were planted in the movie. And right there on the pages of HBP were words so similar to POA I *did* think that: " It was cruel...that you and Sirius had such a short time together. A brutal ending to what should have been a long and happy relationship." (US, p. 76, chap. 4) Was anyone else reminded of Sirius' words to Harry about his parents? And yet I'm certain JKR wrote that before she ever saw the movie. I do think some of Chapter 2 could be a checklist, but I also think part of it is that we're not so different in our thinking from JKR! Many of us are in the same age range, some have very similar cultural experiences, and most of us are as familiar as JKR is with the myths, narratives, literary themes and symbolism that appears in the books. Or we learned about them on this list!! I know I did. So it would be very hard for Jo to write something that *none* of us ever explored before or thought about in a similar way. Jen, who loved this story almost unconditionally. From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:49:42 2005 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:49:42 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <005b01c58c7d$58106fc0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133044 > Sherry now: > > This also reminds me of another thing that causes me not to believe in the > good Snape theory. In chapter two, he told Bella that it was his > information that led to the murder of Emiline Vance. From that moment, I > stopped believing in unlikable but basically good at heart Snape. Calimora: Yes, but Dumbledore also offered to Hide Draco and his mother so completely that Voldemort would think they were dead. Vance could have been similarily hidden. Expecialy since we don't know how she died or who all was involved in her final moments. The question of how completely one can hide in the wizarding world has also raised questions in my mind as to wether Regulus is actually dead or just playing really mum (which might be very improtant given the Locket speculation). > I didn't buy Snape returned to the good side over his remorse over > the death of the Potters either. Calimora again: Ok, I didn't buy that either. It doesn't mean anything if you turncoat after your side has already lost. If he switch Before the Potter's were offed he might have a leg to stand on, but durring the victory toasts? Not so much. He might as well have just claimed Imperious. I personly think there's more to the story. From keltobin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:51:42 2005 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:51:42 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > Alina wrote: > > > > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is > > > > Harry's scar... I definitely found it significant that the ring had a crack that immediately reminded me of Harry's Scar. I think there is definitely something in the idea of Harry as the final Horcrux. Perhaps this is why Dumbledore had that look of triumph when Harry told him of Voldemort using his blood in GoF. From redmorning at tds.net Tue Jul 19 16:44:11 2005 From: redmorning at tds.net (redmorning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD2DDB.40701@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133046 inkling108 wrote: >Okay, I said I would keep it brief. Those who disagree, please >make your arguments. Explain how Snape could have used the AV curse >without truly hating Dumbledore. > Jemima: Because he truly hates Voldemort and in that moment where he had to kill Dumbledore, as had been previously arranged, as Dumbledore just requested in case Snape was having a momentary doubt, that hatred for everything Voldemort stands for, for all Voldemort has done and has made people do and is now forcing Snape's hand to do in order to keep Harry alive, this hatred spewed forth, suffused Snape's entire being and we in the audience and Harry as bystanders misread what is going on beneath the surface. inkling108: > Explain who else would have turned >Mrs. Roberts upside down. Explain why he has tormented Neville over >the years when there was nothing to be gained from it but a sick >pleasure in watching his squirm. Explain how someone who revels in >that kind of pleasure could be anything other than a Death Eater at >heart. Your witness, counsel. > Jemima: That's such a good argument! I have no clue who turned Mrs. Roberts upside down. Could have been Barty Crouch Jr. for all I know. Snape doesn't have good people skills, tis true, but in his own clumsy way has been trying to toughen up these boys for the fight he knew was coming from the beginning and he was successful. Neville fought along side the others at the ministry as well as any of them. Jemima From cubs9911 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 16:58:20 2005 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:58:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > The trio's out of character behavior was the thing that turned me > off the most in HBP. Now I think I see what that's all about, and > I've stopped hating this book and Jo. > We also learn that Ginny never gave up > on Harry liking her. She can bold face lie to Molly. She has the > guts to ram a commentator at a Quidditch match. She thinks that > anything is possible if you have enough nerve. I think she has used > Love potion on Harry and also Hermione to get Hermione away from > Harry, and make Harry fall for her. *** That is a very good theory. But I think it is wrong for a few reasons. 1. Time. I just don't think that JKR will have the time to develop a whole story line about Ginny continuosly slipping Harry and Hermione love potions. I think that she dealt with shipping so much in HBP because she knew that she wouldn't have time to deal with it in Book 7. 2. I think that JKR purposefully showed us how a person reacts under a love potion so that we would know how to spot it. Here is how Ron reacted: Harry, I can't stand it!' 'You can't stand what?' asked Harry, now starling to feel definitely alarmed. Ron was rather pale and looked as though he was about to be sick. 'I can't stop thinking about her!' said Ron hoarsely. 'I don't think she knows I exist,' said Ron with a desperate gesture. 'Romilda Vane,' said Ron softly, and his whole face seemed to illuminate as he said it, as though hit by a ray of purest sunlight. Harry, 1 ihink I love her,' said Ron in a strangled voice. 'I love her,' repeated Ron breathlessly. 'Have you seen her hair, it's all black and shiny and silky ... and her eyes? Her big dark eyes? And her -' ' Ron's fist was drawn right back, his face was contorted with rage; he was about to strike again. 'What was that for?' Harry bellowed. 'You insulted her, Harry! You said it was a joke!' shouted Ron, who was slowly turning purple in the face as all the blood rushed to his head. 'This is insane!' said Harry. 'What's got into -?' And then he saw the box lying open on Ron's bed Now those were some pretty strong reactions that Ron had when under the influence of a love potion. He couldn't think about anything else. Now here is Harry reacting to Ginny when they have their first kiss: Harry looked around; there was Ginny running toward him; she had a hard, blazing look in her face as she threw her arms around him. And without thinking, without planning it, without worrying about the fact that fifty people were watching, Harry kissed her. *** I think this is significant. Without thinking, he kissed her. It was a reaction. He was acting on his feelings. He wasn't obsessed and thinking to himself that he had to kiss Ginny now or he would die.***** "After several long moments ? or it might have been half an hour ? or possibly several sunlit days ? they broke apart. The room had gone very quiet. Then several people wolf-whistled and there was an outbreak of nervous giggling. Harry looked over the top of Ginny's head to see Dean Thomas holding a shattered glass in his hand, and Romilda Vane looking as though she might throw something. Hermione was beaming, but Harry's eyes sought Ron. At last he found him, still clutching the Cup and wearing an expression appropriate to having been clubbed over the head. For a fraction of a second they looked at each other, then Ron gave a tiny jerk of the head that Harry understood to mean, Well?if you must." *** I think this is also important. He was very conscious of everyone in the room. He noticed all their reactions and was even seeking Ron's approval. That is very important. He wanted Ron's approval. When Ron was under the influence of a love potion, he wanted to hex Harry for an insult about a girl he didn't know. He was obbsessed and there is no way he would have tried to seek approval from anyone. In this intance, Harry is seeking Ron's approval and noticing the reactions of everyone else in the room. I believe that if he was under the influence of a love potion than the only thing on his mind would have been Ginny.**** 3. A couple of other reasons I think that this theory is wrong: a. Hermione is too smart. She would know if something like this was going on. b. There were never any moments where Ginny handed Hermione or Harry food or a drink that I can remember that would leave us a clue that this was happening. c. It would be very hard for Ginny to continuely slip Harry a love potion. And I say continuely because we are told that they wear off. She does not live in his dorm room with him and Harry was on his own a lot away from the other students,(with Dumbledore, in detention, tracking Malfoy, etc.) I know a lot of people weren't happy about the shipping in this book, but I think that it's best to just accept it and focus on the story itself. -joe From arolls at igc.org Tue Jul 19 16:41:40 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:41:40 -0000 Subject: - R.A.B = Regulus Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133048 CareALotsClouds wrote: > Sirius isn't talking in fact but in speculation. I think we > have come to know that JK doesn't just use speculation instead of > fact for no reason. Sirius does talk factually about Regulus being > a Death Eater however. > With that in mind the note calls Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'. > Regulus fits the initials, fits the situation, fits because there > is hardly any fact based around him. As for his motivations, look > at Adams T post since we discussed it before. Number 1) is my > favourable motive. There is also the fact that it would be quite > nice for Harry that Sirius brother had attempted to help the > cause. > Also, Regulus was called an 'idiot' by Sirius. So, Regulus is > immersed into the dark arts but is not absolutely great at it. > Liking the dark arts would cause Regulus' discovery of the > Horcrux, but not the initiative to work out that Voldemort would > have done something slightly different i.e. have many horcruxes. My Crackpot Regulus Theory: I'm not *completely* convinced that RAB is Regulus, but if he (or she) is, here's what happened: Regulus was a friend of Severus back in their Hogwarts days. Joined DE's briefly, (along with Severus) as we know, tried to back out when he saw what they were really up to. As Sirius says, Regulus wasn't important enough for Voldemort to deal with him personally, so he sent his minion, Snape to kill Regulus. (A Very Voldy Thing To Do - test his loyalty by ordering him to kill his best friend.) Snape really doesn't want to kill Reg, so he goes to Dumbledore, who helps him make it look as though Reg. is dead (Remember in HBP, he assured Draco that they can make him seem dead and hide him in ways that he can hardly imagine...). So Dumbledore helps Snape, Regulus lives on. Dumbledore has a BIG thing to hold over Snape's head (thus his power over Snape, and why he trusts him). So where's Regulus? (Here's the real crackpot bit) Dumbledore has transfigured him into a hippogriff and put him under the care of Hagrid. It's Buckbeak! That's why Dumbledore made such a deal of saving his life in POA. Doesn't it make the Buckbeak/ Sirius bonding so much more poignant? Doesn't it make the continued presence of Buckbeak/Witherwings make a tiny bit more sense? So in the end, Reformed!Regulus will be the new Sirius, friend and sort-of fatherfigure to Harry. Of course, Regulus wasn't really the idiot that Sirius paints him - what big brother would ever admit that his younger sibling was clever? Speaking of brothers - I'm hoping that Aberforth "inherits" Fawkes and comes into his own in Bk 7 - maybe he's the new/ old member of the Order JKR speaks of. We know he's as weird as Albus - maybe he's as powerful! -allison From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:00:38 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:00:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers Message-ID: <103.659b1861.300e8bb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133049 S P O I L E R W A R N I N G ! Brief Chronicles again: I'm posting this on behalf of my brother, who pointed out that an unopenable locket was seen at Number 12 GP in OotP. :) More evidence to add to the theory that R.A.B. = Regulus. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 17:02:39 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:02:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny Message-ID: <410-22005721917239921@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133050 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <5682574 at s...> wrote: > > Love potions seem to be a thread in this book. > > Another > > person pointed out that Hermione being obsessed from Love Potion > > could explain her lack of SPEW comments. I expected a speech to > > Harry about Kreacher at the least. > > > > I think Molly's favorite Christmas song is a clue about this. It's > > called "A Caldron Full of Hot, Stong Love". > > Brilliant. You've made my day. I was so frustrated by their behavior > - I knew it didn't really add up. > > So many clues must add up to something. > > But, I think you have to consider that Ginny really is a plausable > mate for Harry. Harry needs Hermione in his fight more than he needs > Ginny, but Ginny is so much more *like* Harry. Also, he's never shown > any romantic interest in Hermione. > --mg_mchenry \ ************************************* Chancie: Perhaps one BIG fact that you seem to have over looked, is that we've seen how Love Potion effects people. Look at Ron's obsession with Romalda Vane. He was crazed, and could not help himself. This in NO WAY discribes Harry's reactions to Ginny. I fully belive that their feelings for each other are very real as are Ron and Hermione's. You are of course free to think/feel/believe any way that you wish, but it is clear the way that JKR is choosing to take the story, and that is Ginny/Harry, and Hermione/Ron. If you look at the cannon, I don't see how the events can play out differently. And as I said, I do agree that there was alot of Love Potion talk, but we've seen how it effects people, and even though Slughorn said that it intensify's with time, I still think that it would still effect the person in the same way. Besides, if Ginny was really going after Harry as you say, wouldn't she have ditched Dean on the train when Harry asked her to find a compartment with him? I don't see Ginny as someone who would use a love potion, look at her reaction to Dean always helping her. Ginny want's some one who will treat her as an equal, and I think that it's been shown that a Love Potion would not return the desired effect. Chancie From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Jul 19 16:55:58 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:55:58 -0700 Subject: Evil Snape? I think not. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD309D.8060207@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133051 Is Snape evil? Had he gone over to the dark side forever? I am not so sure... This is how I see it. LV wants Dumbledore dead. He fears him too much to go do it himself. He could just ask Snape to do it as proof of his loyalty, but no, that would make him look cowardly. So, he 'punishes Lucius' by setting a Draco on a suicide mission. Narcissa's love for her son is well known by LV and he knows she will seek someone to protect her son. Who is a good family friend of the Malfoys and the closest one to Draco? Why Severus of course. He knows Narcissa will do anything to protect her son and would likely have Snape vow to protect him. LV knows that Draco doesn't have it in him to kill anyone, but Snape has vowed to finish the job if Draco cannot do it. Snape may not have known for sure what Draco would be asked to do when he took the vow, but had to pretend he did. One he took the vow, LV had him. Too many things don't add up to him going over to the dark side. For one, he killed Dumbledore too quickly. No final villain speech, no good-byes, no gloating.. Just an AK to the heart and out the door. He worked too hard to keep the other DEs from killing Harry too, when he could have just let one of them kill him and then let LV deal with the person who killed Harry. . He also was still trying to teach Harry to the last. He also had no choice in killing Dumbledore. If he failed to complete Draco's task, the other DEs would have killed Dumbledore, LV would have killed Draco and the Vow would have killed Snape. The good of the many outweighed the good of the few. DD was pleading with Snape, I believe to carry out a promise to kill him if this situation arose. Killing Dumbledore gets Snape closer to Voldemort then anyone, where he can distract Voldemort while Harry finds and destroys the parts of LV's soul scattered about. He might even still be able to somehow pass information to the remnants of the Order, maybe through someone else. But he at least can be a powerful backup when the items are destroyed and LV is 'mortal' again, when he can strike. (Yes, its rather Darth Vader-like in a way...but more planned) Dumbledore was trying to get Harry to go get Snape, not because he thought Harry could bring him back to help, but to get Harry out of the way so he would not see Snape kill him. Harry took too long to leave and Dumbledore froze him to both protect him and keep him from interfering. Being as Dumbledore KNEW that LV had given Draco the task of killing him and knew that Snape took a vow to protect him, he was very likely pleading with Severus to finish him and save Draco and his mother from LV's wrath, plus setting Snape up to be there to kill LV if the horcruxs are all destroyed. . Severus killing the snake during the dueling club scene may be an omen that Snape will be the one to kill Nagini. Snape IMO is a solder in a war, asked to do something terrible to further the cause. He followed orders. He is not good or evil, but just doing what he must for the greater good. I once knew a vet whose orders were to kill all the communications personnel at his post if they were overrun, to prevent information from falling into enemy hands. These were his friends and he would have shot them for the greater good. Snape was acting on orders to further the cause and to protect Draco. Dumbledore would have rather died then see Draco become a killer and would also give his life for even the least of his students. I for one, have not given up on Snape yet and feel that LV will one day regret that he trusted him. Jazmyn From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 19 17:08:13 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:08:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > I'm along with those who believe that Dumbledore asked Severus Snape > to kill him, as some sort of pre-agreement (along the lines of those > he made with Harry). However, I believe that there is more than one > reason for the request. > > The first is that Dumbledore is weakened, and that he must 'take > himself out' before anything further can happen. In addition, > perhaps in his portrait he has full use of his faculties and can > serve better in this form. Just a thought. > I agree with you to a point. I think that Dumbledore's sacrifice added to some protection magic for Harry. Rowling has borrowed from mythos around the world. So the sacrifice idea isn't too much of a stretch. C.S. Lewis used the herioc sacrifice in Lion, Witch, Wardrobe, where the ailing Aslan was sacrificed on the Stone Table and was reborn (yes, the Christ symbology is there). Within the HP books, Lily sacrificed herself for Harry, thus giving Harry protection. So, I think Dumbledore's sacrifice will add to Harry's power/protection/(luck) in the Final Battle. > The second is that he has to protect Draco Malfoy. He knows that > Draco can't kill him, and was just going through the motions > throughout the school year so that Voldemort won't hurt his family. > However, with the Death Eaters there in the end, Dumbledore knows > that Draco will be pushed to do what he has been requested to do. > So, Dumbledore has Snape do it, so that Draco will not have to do > the terrible deed. This will not only save Draco's (mental, and > perhaps physical) life, but also perhaps help him see where his > allegiances should lie in future battles and scenarios. > > All right everyone: dissect, and discuss! Isn't this fun? > > --Penny Draco didn't have the ability to kill---at this time. But who knows what Book 7 will bring. Moreover, Draco's inability to kill might not bode well in the Death Eater culture. If we take a note from Ancient Greece, particularly the city-state of Sparta, those who embraced the fight to the death were the heroes. In other words, the DE's share the "with your sword or on it" mentality of the ancient Spartans. So Draco's inaction might be detrimental to his health and the health of the other Malfoys. Milz (who hasn't posted here since the last book--lol) From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 19 17:10:33 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:10:33 -0000 Subject: Wasn't Anyone Else Disappointed? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133053 Maybe it's just postpartum depression after all the wait, but I thought HBP was disappointing. It lacked the imagination of the earlier books. For example, the first half could have had much more humor ? at one point when Ron was and took it out on a first year, I expected a set up for a nice zinger and all we got was lame comment "It's not polite to point!" Or part of the fun is that the witches and wizards have funny names, but in this book we more often just got "Bob" and "Jimmy" than any interesting names. Part of my disappointment concerned Hermione. She had been my favorite character in the first five books. In the previous books, I was always glad when Hermione spoke, but in HBP by page 200 I just wanted her to leave ? she was always either boring or shrill. And she showed a nasty streak I never would have expected (turning those birds on Ron, going out with Cormac just to annoy Ron) ? I guess hell hath no fury like a teenage witch in love. My least favorite topic ? shipping ? showed the problem. I expected some fun twists in this area, but all we got was the obvious ? H/G and Hr/R. It wasn't a perfectly straight line, but still there were no surprises, only the boringly obvious (obvious at least to the superficial reading of the issue that someone who, like me, isn't a shipper gave the issue in the first five books). Maybe she was just clearly the decks for something interesting in Book7. The middle of the book was well, dull compared to the other books. Of course, things picked up at the end, but all I can say is that a thought forced itself into my mind while reading the middle of HBP that never ever occurred to me while reading any of the other five books ? "when will this be over?" All this does not bode well for what we can expect in Book 7. I, of course, still look forward to Book 7, but not with the excitement I had anticipated before reading HBP. I'll reread it next month and maybe my opinion will change. Richard Jones From adesahafford at wmconnect.com Tue Jul 19 16:56:17 2005 From: adesahafford at wmconnect.com (adesahafford at wmconnect.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:56:17 EDT Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? Message-ID: <191.437f9811.300e8ab1@wmconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133054 Or did JKR make a mistake? Snape claims, at the end, to be the Prince, and yet... "Ron fell asleep almost immediately, but Harry delved into his trunk and pulled out his copy of Advanced Potion-Making before getting into bed. There he turned its pages, searching, until he finally found, at the front of the book, the date that it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, not his father's friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago...." (HBP, US, Ch. 16, p. 337) Neither, I might add, was Snape. So, are we to assume as Harry did that the Prince must have been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the *publication* date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? Certainly possible, given he was at the school on a need-based scholarship. Or is this a mistake on JKR's part? You know her and "maths," as she says. Or, is Snape covering for someone else who *was* there 50 years ago? Riddle was there, as was Hagrid. Both are half-bloods, though Hagrid would probably not have the magical ability demonstrated by our friend the Prince. Who else was there? The Prewitt's? Neville's Gran or other relatives? All purebloods. Hmmm... Adesa, really ticked we didn't find out about the gum wrappers yet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From packsim at aol.com Tue Jul 19 16:59:33 2005 From: packsim at aol.com (packsim at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:33 EDT Subject: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven Message-ID: <55.7778ea60.300e8b75@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133055 >From bbkkyy55 >snip< There have just been too many times that Snape has been quite alone with Harry and has still been grossly mean and totally unfair. Why put up the act when you don't have an audience? Was he just pretending to be so mean in front of Harry so he could keep in practice (form). I don't believe it. LariLee's response Who says they didn't have an audience? After all, Harry's picked up quite a bit of Voldemort's thoughts and feelings from the scar on his head. How do we know it doesn't work both ways? After all, Voldemort is much more experienced and capable in Legilimency then Harry ever became in Occlumency. That's why Dumbledore refused to teach him Occlumency, isn't it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdyal at wowway.com Tue Jul 19 17:01:07 2005 From: jdyal at wowway.com (Joshua Dyal) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:01:07 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mg_mchenry" wrote: > As difficult as it is for me to get my head around the R/H pairing, > Hermione's actions toward Ron were persistent, crafty, and patient. > Those are much more Hermione's trademarks than the effects of a love > potion. Ron's feelings were telgraphed well in advance. They were persistent, crafty and patient. I also thought them out of character for Hermione. With the exception of clearly having no concept of how male bonding works, Hermione has always been very mature in her attitudes, particularly in regards to interpersonal relationships. Many times throughout the series, Hermione has seen right to the heart of a personal issue, or how to deal with someone on a personal level, and the other characters have ignored her only to bang their heads against the wall. Hermione's actions vis a vis Won-Won and Lav-Lav, on the other hand, seemed ill-considered, immature, childish and petty. They actually quite surprised me. Raolin From sdutchen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 16:56:15 2005 From: sdutchen at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:56:15 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > Okay, all you guys who still think he's one of the good guys, > consider the following: As a Snape believer through and through, I'll take a crack at it. > In the muggle torture scene at the World Cup in GOF, *one* (and only > one) masked DE performs the curse that turns Mrs. Roberts upside > down and reveals her underwear. No incantation is heard. Silent > levicorpus, anyone? And who would do that? Mind you, this would be > years after he had supposedly reformed. Here are two ideas: 1. Lupin tells Harry in HBP that the hex enjoyed great popularity when he was at school. Anyone at Hogwarts at that time could have picked it up. 2. Okay, suppose it *was* Snape (which I disagree with). If the Death Eaters all know each other, which we can assume they do (take for example Lucius Malfoy giving orders to his masked companions *by name* at the Department of Mysteries), then it stands to reason that they know Snape is among them at the World Cup festivities. He can't very well tag along doing nothing or he'd arouse suspicion. Levicorpus may be humiliating, but it doesn't cause any physical damage, and is therefore a relatively harmless choice of hex for the evening. He probably also knew that the Muggles would be obliviated when the Ministry arrived. inkling: > Snape has left his DE tendencies behind, you think? He no longer > tortures the helpless just for fun? Does the name Neville > Longbottom ring a bell? What more inviting target could there be > for a pure sadistic bully? Trelawney's prophecy named both Harry and Neville as potential adversaries for Voldemort, and only V's decision to attack the Potters made Harry the 'Chosen One.' If Snape believes that Harry needs some head deflation after years of public adoration following that decision, why shouldn't he also believe that Neville needs a backbone to support what he could have been (and could still be)? He may have thought that criticizing the boy would eventually lead him to snap back, work harder and gain some confidence in himself, even if it meant hating Snape in return. I will not make excuses for the methods Snape employs, and this theory is not the only possible alternate explanation for his behavior, but his harsh approach to Neville can be explained by much more than sheer sadism. > Still not convinced? If magic is a science, then it should be > subject to scientific proof. What is required to make an > Unforgivable Curse work? We have the answer from Ms Unforgivable > herself, Bellatrix. "You have to mean it...You have to really want > to cause pain -- to enjoy it." > > Snape, on the other hand, has no trouble casting the curse, and he > instantly succeeds. Think of it as a lab test. If the effect is > death, the cause must have been hatred. One quibble with your logic here. A witch or wizard obviously has to have real intent behind the casting of an Unforgiveable, but do we know that the motivation for all three curses has to be hatred? It makes sense that to cast a successful Crucio, you must want to cause pain. To cast Avada Kedavra, though, perhaps you must want to cause *death*. The two are very different. All Snape would have needed was a true desire to leave Dumbledore dead, no matter how much he despised the task. And that leaves us with many more motives than hatred of his victim. > And just in case we miss this point JKR writes > that he had an expression of "revulsion and hatred" on his face as > he aimed the curse at Dumbledore. Harry never wonders why Snape has that look on his face. It could very well be hatred of the task he's just had to perform against his will (see other posts today about plans he might have laid with Dumbledore before that night). Also, if Snape turns out to be the Romantic hero some of us hope he is, the revulsion might be self- directed. My two knuts, as they say. Looking forward to everyone else's thoughts. -Stephanie From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:15:32 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:15:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? Message-ID: <46.6d98b101.300e8f34@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133058 In a message dated 7/19/2005 1:12:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, adesahafford at wmconnect.com writes: Or, is Snape covering for someone else who *was* there 50 years ago? Riddle was there, as was Hagrid. Both are half-bloods, though Hagrid would probably not have the magical ability demonstrated by our friend the Prince. Who else was there? The Prewitt's? Neville's Gran or other relatives? All purebloods. Hmmm... Adesa, really ticked we didn't find out about the gum wrappers yet Brief Chronicles now: I think we're to understand that the book was the property of his mother. Am I confused about this? It was likely a hand-me-down that Snape wrote in. What confused me about the text books was... there are never new editions? lol I also would like to say that I felt her lack of proper foreshadowing regarding the identity of the HBP was to the point of being unfair to the reader. Brief Chronicles, who is also sad there was no gum wrapper explanation! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kiva9035 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:03:27 2005 From: kiva9035 at yahoo.com (aikiva93) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:03:27 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133059 Sherry wrote: -------------------- > > I didn't buy Snape returned to the good side over his remorse over > > the death of the Potters either. -------------------- >>Calimora wrote: --------------------- > Ok, I didn't buy that either. It doesn't mean anything if you > turncoat after your side has already lost. If he switch Before the > Potter's were offed he might have a leg to stand on, but durring the > victory toasts? Not so much. He might as well have just claimed > Imperious. I personly think there's more to the story. ---------------------- aikiva now: I'd just like to point out that Snape doesn't need to have affinity towards the Potters even though he is on the 'good' side. Frankly, he has had a rough life growing up in Hogwarts taunted by his fellow classmates. There's no reason for him to stop hating the Potters despite having been saved by James under various circumstances. Actually, according to Dumbledore, it's because of these events that caused Snape to feel indebted to the Potters, leading to his increased hatred for them. Snape might hate the Potters, but he does not hate Dumbledore. In fact, I feel he cares so much for Draco that he is even willing to accomplish what Draco cannot do. Both Dumbledore and Snape wants Draco to remain innocent--and even if Snape has to sacrifice himself to do it, he will. The hatred on Snape's face--I took it to mean the hate Snape has at the moment for Voldemort and not Dumbledore. Or--it might be the hatred he has for himself, because he has no other way out of this predicament. --aikiva From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Tue Jul 19 17:16:58 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:16:58 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco had been taken into the > Death Eaters and given the task of killing Dumbledore. Which they clearly did. Remember DD is completely unperturbed by Harry's eavesdropping - which included SS's unbreakable vow - but says pointedly that he knows more about it than Harry. And DD tells Draco he knew all about his various clumsy attempts. > ** Snape had to know that Narcissa would come see him and ask him to > swear the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore. He further > had to know how that would fit into future events. Not at all. Snape took a moment to think then realized that the vow wouldn't bind him to anything he hadn't already agreed to do - ie; protect Malfoy even at the cost of DD's life - so he took it. > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco wouldn't have the nerve > to go through with it himself, that he wouldn't just bust a magical > cap in Dumbledore the first time he had his back turned. Seeing as DD and SS are respectively Malfoy's Headmaster and Head of House and have known him since he was eleven I think it's fair to assume they have a pretty good idea what he's capable of. > ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to keep Harry > from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes on him after this plan > worked out. I guess they didn't expect Harry to be an eyewitness. One can't plan for *every* eventuality > Harry will never believe anything about Snape again ? Harry will try > to kill Snape the first chance he gets. If Snape came to Harry and > tried everything he could to persuade Harry, it would do no good. > Snape couldn't convince any of the Order, either. It's hard to figure > out how Snape can be any good to the Order or Harry after this. All too true From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:17:22 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:17:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven Message-ID: <203.5e6c2fa.300e8fa2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133061 In a message dated 7/19/2005 1:14:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, packsim at aol.com writes: >From bbkkyy55 >snip< There have just been too many times that Snape has been quite alone with Harry and has still been grossly mean and totally unfair. Why put up the act when you don't have an audience? Was he just pretending to be so mean in front of Harry so he could keep in practice (form). I don't believe it. LariLee's response Who says they didn't have an audience? After all, Harry's picked up quite a bit of Voldemort's thoughts and feelings from the scar on his head. How do we know it doesn't work both ways? After all, Voldemort is much more experienced and capable in Legilimency then Harry ever became in Occlumency. That's why Dumbledore refused to teach him Occlumency, isn't it? Brief Chronicles Does this mean that people who treat Harry with contempt are undoubtedly DE? I disagree. Snape can hate Harry and still be a loyal member of the Order. I find him all the more honorable for that. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fozzie60 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:06:54 2005 From: fozzie60 at yahoo.com (Sue) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:06:54 -0000 Subject: Didn't like it!! First Impressions (some SHIPping) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133062 Ok, maybe its because I was delerious from lack of sleep, but after my first read thru, I didn't like HBP. My overall impression was that JKR spent her time on all the fan sites, reading theories, reading ships, listening to what we, the fans, really wanted---and then gave it to us. One of the things that aggrevated me most was the flying liplock with Ginny---where did that come from???? Must be the same odd place that WonWon and Lavendar Brown came from. I'm also not buying the Lupin/Tonks ship, for no other reason than "where the hell did that come from??" There was no continuation of the DA meetings, which would be more needed now than ever. The whole thing was too choppy, too "answer driven"-- -someone has already pointed out the JKR checklist thing and I agree with that. And in 2 short weeks, Harry goes from destroying DDs office to Mr Calm, Cool and Collected?? I could go on, but Saturday afternoon is a long ways from today, and my impressions are beginning to fade. I'm also in re-read mode, so maybe I'll have a different opinion tomorrow. Don't flame me too hard, thats all I ask. Bluejinx From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue Jul 19 17:20:35 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:20:35 -0000 Subject: Locket and Regulus Black In-Reply-To: <19a.381857b2.300e7f05@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133063 CareALotsClouds says: > > In OotP, chapter of 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' a 'locket' is mentioned. Page 108 uk edition: 'There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleep, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open...' Also, AdamT pointed out that why would JK show Mundungus stealing from the house? Could it be that Mundungus now has the pendant, unbeknown to him? A lot of coincidences surrounding Regulus and the Horxcrux I think.. Greenfirespike says: Just on the note of who is RAB. No matter who it ends up being, and I think it is Regulus Black, note that whoever stole the locket and placed in the fake one must have had help. DD says to Harry that they needed two people to secure that Horxcrux. GFS (who was sad to see DD go) From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 19 17:23:51 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:23:51 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jospehine" wrote: > My last post for the day- lest I over cram the message board with all > of my babblings-*sigh*! > > Right. Snape Snape Snape... so, it would appear that most of you > think he's on the good side. > > Considering where book 6 leaves us, it is suggested that Book 7 will > consist of: > > Harry's hunt for the Horcruxes > Harry's destruction of Voldemort (or failure to do so) > > That is pretty much the essence of it, stripped down to its bare > bones. No? > > The question I have then is this- if Snape is still on DD's side, > what does Harry have to gain from his allegience? It's not in Snape's > character to help Harry, so I can't see him going 'oh look Harry > here's that Horcrux you were looking for!'. Other than postponing > Voldemort's knowledge of Harry's hunt, what else can he offer to the > OoTP? We already know that Voldemort is intent on mayhem and > destruction. Tell us something new Snapey! I can't help but feel that > his betrayal of Harrry/DD/ et al was the only way his character could > have been written- otherwise he was in danger of being shadowed into > obscurity with no further purpose to the cause. I certainly don't think Snape is a good-guy. In fact I think it's rather clever of Rowling to do this sort of thing. See, the characters in the book have placed a blind trust in Dumbledore. In OoP, Lupin, Molly, Sirius all agreed that Dumbledore was right to not let Harry know everything---something that Dumbledore admits was a mistake at the end of the book. These characters trust Dumbledore's opinions to the point where they dismiss their own instincts...with the exception of Harry who trusts Dumbledore implicitly, but not blindly, and therefore has the ability to think independently. And this has been shown in every single book: Harry's suspicions are pooh-poohed because 1. he's a kid and 2. because as Hagrid so eloquently put it once "If it's good enough for Dumbledore, it's good enough for me." This is a very strong cautionary tale: trust but don't be trusting to the point where you do not listen to your own instincts and follow blindly. To make Snape a good-guy (in disguise as a bad guy in disguise as a good-guy) would be counterproductive to any kind of cautionary tale of trusting yourself and your instincts. It would only perpetuate the fallacy of blinding following a charismatic leader---which is contrary to the underlying theme of the believing in yourself and finding the inner strength to do what's right, rather than what's convenient. Milz From mcleanaliz at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:26:17 2005 From: mcleanaliz at gmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:26:17 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133065 Julie wrote: "So I can't say with 100% certainty that Snape is still on the side of good, but after HBP I'm actually more convinced now than I ever was before!" Alice: The only problem is that JKR has now put Snape in an impossible situation. Whether ESE or not, there is no way he can get out of this war victorious. If he's on Voldy's side, then he will perish (or else end up in Azkaban), because I firmly believe that Harry will successfully vanquish Voldemort (even if he dies in the process). If he's on DD's side, there's no way he's gonna wriggle out of having committed THE murder. Snape's doomed. Damn Draco, on the other hand, has not yet cast an Unforgivable (as far as we know). The little git might climb out of this yet. Oh it was amazing when for a couple of seconds we were allowed to believe in Redeemed!Draco. And then it passed. My favourite book so far. Closely overruled POA. Love, Alice From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 19 17:26:02 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:26:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven In-Reply-To: <55.7778ea60.300e8b75@aol.com> References: <55.7778ea60.300e8b75@aol.com> Message-ID: <42DD37AA.8000306@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133066 packsim at aol.com wrote: >>From bbkkyy55 > > > >>snip< >> >> > >There have just been too many times that Snape has been quite alone with >Harry and has still been grossly mean and totally unfair. Why put up the act >when you don't have an audience? Was he just pretending to be so mean in front >of Harry so he could keep in practice (form). I don't believe it. > > > And your point is? So Snape is mean to Harry - God knows most of the time I would be too. I spent large chuunks of this book wanting to smack him upside the head with something weighty. Being unpleasant to someone he doesn't like is pretty much irrelevent to whether Snape is working with Dumbledore. Very few of the Sanpe fans are tyring to make the argument that he's just a fluffy bunny at heart. (alothough that's a kind of cute image). Snape is petty and mean with a rather amusing and sharp turn of phrase. He has absolutely no patience with people he considers stupid (which pretty much includes all Gryffindors as far as I can tell). However after this book I'm beginning to wish I could have listened in on the Hat when he was sorted - he seems to have more balls than pretty much anyone we've met, certainly tan any of the 'bad' guys. K From hermystheories at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:14:56 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:14:56 -0700 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133067 I think the infamous R.A.B. is Borgin, of Borgin and Burkes. Burke's first name is Caractacus, given in book 6. Borgin has been in the series since book 2, but has never been given a first name. He's always "Mister." He treats the Malfoys with reverence and fear, but mutters about them with disgust once they leave his store. He and Burke both would have ample knowledge of dark objects. The locket was originally sold from their store, and they would have remembered who bought it, expecting to get it back after she died. I sincerely doubt that it is Regulus Black. Sirius said he doubted that his brother was ever important enough for Voldermort to kill him himself. Also, in book 5, R. Black has been dead 15 years. Sirius was, at most, 40. So his younger brother would have been, at MOST, 24 when he died. Probably younger. He wouldn't have the experience or importance to discover the Horcruxes, know how to handle them, or even to write a well-composed note like that. Also, wouldn't Harry, Ron, Hermione, or whoever found the locket have noticed the S for Slytherin on it? The description in OOP of the locket they found only said that it refused to open. If it is indeed *THE* locket, I'm sure the Blacks acquired it after R.A.B. (Borgin?) was through with it. Mrs. Hermione Snape From kdavison at shreve.net Tue Jul 19 17:16:19 2005 From: kdavison at shreve.net (Kimberly Davison) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:16:19 -0500 Subject: HBP: replies to many, and my thoughts Message-ID: <000f01c58c85$94ff3760$18cafecf@SYSTWO> No: HPFGUIDX 133068 Dysisgirl: "And anyway, it seems that Draco's family itself is trying to break free of LV's grasp on them. Notice that in the 5th book, Kreachure considered Narcissa Malfoy his second Mistress, while in the 6th book he now calls Bellatrix his second mistress." Me (Kim): I understood that to mean that Narcissa was is second mistress at that time because Bellatrix was in Azkaban at the time. Kreacher couldn't very well go to her, so Narcissa was the next in line. And in HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that in Black family tradition, the house (and Kreacher) would go to Bellatrix, as the oldest one left in the family. As for Snape, my first reaction was the same as Harry's and all of the members of the Order. Shock, sadness (that's an understatement), and wondering how and why DD trusted him, how could he be so wrong? Now I have read chapters 2, 27, and 28 a few more times, and am really conflicted. On one hand, I think that it is very clear, Snape is ESE, and not only is he a true Death Eater, and loyal to V, he is also alot like V. He called himself the HBP, and that comparison to "Lord Voldemort" I consider significant. He thinks highly of himself. Which he is not wrong, he is a very accomplished wizard. Another thing that points to ESE Snape, is OotP, Chapter 36, "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? ... You need to MEAN them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to ejoy it - righteous anger won't hurt me for long - ..." Bellatrix to Harry. How could Snape kill DD if he didn't mean it. I do not see how it could work if he was loyal to DD. How could it be possible? And, while I do not believe DD was pleading for his life, I do believe he was pleading with Severus NOT to betray him. DD was not afraid of death, no, but he trusted Snape. I can see how it could be a plan to kill him some other way, if DD insisted Snape do it, but to use AK? I just don't see how. On the other hand, why did DD trust him? I do think there is more to this story, and although all of the evidence points to ESE Snape, I still have a little inkling of doubt. I am just not sure. I can not see how Snape could use AK and not be ESE. How is that possible? None of the other members of the Order used it, even when the DE are throwing it at them repeatedly. Even to defend themselves, they did not use it. Very interesting theory that RAB could be Regulas Black. Do we have any evidence of a middle name for him? I like this theory. I do wonder who helped him, though. I'm sure that DD saying that one could not do it alone is very significant. But I don't think it could have been Kreacher, because DD said the boat would measure how much magic is aboard (or something like that) and house elves have strong magical abilities. It would have to be a child, muggle, or squib, I would think. Harry as a horcrux: Interesting, very interesting. That is possible, that he is a horcrux, but an unintentional one. The part of Voldemort that transferred over to Harry at GH, maybe that could be a horcrux. But, although it is an interesting theory, I don't think it's what JKR has planned, because I feel certain that DD would have figured that out. Then again, maybe he did figure it out, but is going to let Harry figure that one out on his own. But still, I don't think it'll happen that way. Neither can live while the other survives... Voldemort would be killing part of himself if that were true. No, I don't think it will go that way. And as far as Voldemort INTENDING for Harry to be a horcrux, I don't think so at all. Kenney: "He has never attacked Harry without need, or outside of a defensive context besides his Tom Riddle Horcrux." Me (Kim): Huh? Well, aside from the theory that he never intended to kill Harry as a baby, which I don't follow, there were other times he tried to kill Harry while not defending himself. Sure, the PS could be considered self-defense, in that he wanted the stone in order to live. But GoF? He told Harry he was going to kill him, yet give him a chance to defend himself. I believe that "chance" he gave Harry was just another way of toying with him, torturing him even. He never believed Harry could actually do it, so yes, he was going to intentionally kill Harry at that time. And OotP? Chapter 36 "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter. You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" He was done with Harry, the prophecy was gone, so he didn't need him anymore. I would not call that a defensive move. Alla: "Dumbledore talks with Draco as a man, who makes contingency plans and is ready to implement them, not as someone who knows that he is dying." Me (Kim): Oooh, very good point! I didn't even think about that one. Yes, that further strengthens my belief that DD did NOT tell Snape to AK him. Even to think, that DD told Snape to use AK on him, just sounds impossible. But, regarding the romances... LOL- Remus/Sirius. I know that is a popular pairing, but I just never saw that. I am happy to see two of my favorite characters hook up. Although, I did wonder at the beginning if her feelings were for Sirius, but had already decided against that long before Harry wondered the same. But, I never saw Remus/Tonks coming, and I like it. I will agree that it was not as well written as it could have been, and that's unusual for JKR, but I will have to re-read OotP to make sure of that. Perhaps there were hints we missed? Mari: "By the end of (GoF) I was beginning to change my mind. Snape's response to Dumbledore's question at the end, in particular, pulled me up short and made me look at him in a new way: 'Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready. If you are prepared.' 'I am.' He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely." Me (Kim): You know, this is a good quote to bring up. I see it in a different light now. Now, I see it as "he looked slightly paler than usual" because he was scared that Voldemort may not trust him when he came back, and "his cold, black eyes glittered strangely" perhaps because he was actually excited (if that is the right word) that Voldemort was back and that he would be going back to the "dark side", not to work as DD's double agent, but as Voldemort's. I am not done reading the mail yet, so I am sure I'll have more replies, but I just wanted to say, I do agree with much of what many of you have said in defense of Snape. My mind is conflicted right now. If he had killed DD in any other way, perhaps I would not have a hard time believing that he is NOT ESE. But because of the use of AK, I just can not understand how he can be good. I agree that so many other things point to him as loyal to DD, but this Unforgivable Curse? How do you all feel about that? Snape fans, convince me please, I am really interested in what you think. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From j9ke at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:17:27 2005 From: j9ke at yahoo.com (j9ke) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:17:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's "death" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133069 I think that Dumbledore has phoenix qualities and he's known his burning time was coming so the plans for Snape to "kill" were made. The thing that I don't like about this idea is that once again, they didn't let Harry in on the plan. JKR tied up most of the loose ends; the things that haven't made sense since the beginning, i.e. Snape's motive to get the Stone, etc. If Dumbledore is a phoenix, or can reincarnated like a phoenix, it would explain how he could have helped Flamel invent the Stone 600 plus years ago. Janine From kcawte at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 19 17:35:00 2005 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:35:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD39C4.5080505@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133070 >Sherry wrote: >-------------------- > > >>>I didn't buy Snape returned to the good side over his remorse >>> >>> >over > > >>>the death of the Potters either. >>> >>> > >aikiva now: > >I'd just like to point out that Snape doesn't need to have affinity >towards the Potters even >though he is on the 'good' side. Frankly, he has had a rough life >growing up in Hogwarts >taunted by his fellow classmates. There's no reason for him to stop >hating the Potters >despite having been saved by James under various circumstances. >Actually, according to >Dumbledore, it's because of these events that caused Snape to feel >indebted to the Potters, >leading to his increased hatred for them. > > >The hatred on Snape's face--I took it to mean the hate Snape has at >the moment for >Voldemort and not Dumbledore. Or--it might be the hatred he has for >himself, because he >has no other way out of this predicament. > > >--aikiva > > > > > > > OK I think this is my third post for today :) So I'm going to shut up now. I didn't buy the reason AD gave for Snape changing sides either. It didn't seem at all in character for Snape - I would have expected his reation to be more along the lines of 'wow, didn't know that was going to be the consequence of handing the information over, but fantastic, I knew something had to go right for me!" Followed by a victory dance, possibly on their graves. I came to the conclusion that one fo three things happened 1- Severus lied to albus about his reasons (can't think why though), 2 - Albus is lying to Harry to try and get him not to hate Severus (lost cause) or 3 - JKR hasn't thought this out as well as I would have expected .... And as for the hatred on Snape's face I think it was hatred for Albus (which would help him cast the AK although after earlier comments about how AD's body looked I'm wondering it it was AK that killed him). If someone I admired/respected/quite possibly cared for was forcing me to go through with a promise I had made (both the Vow and I suspect Albus wrung a promise out of Severus similar to the one Harry amde about following his orders no matter what) and kill them I suspect I would probably hate them for it. K From cobblers at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:26:25 2005 From: cobblers at gmail.com (Hank Alme) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:26:25 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: References: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: <2a388f970507191026d4dfe31@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133071 Here we delve into what I think will be the big area of speculation for the next X years while we await the arrival of Book VII: Harry Potter and the Something-or-otherish Whatsit. Snape is clearly a creep in a lot of small ways, but is he an evil creep and servant to LV, or is he a good creep who's end goal is the defeat of the death cult. Only JKR knows for sure, if anyone does. It's fun to speculate, anyway, so on to Jim's post: On 7/19/05, Jim Ferer wrote: > > This and all the "Snape is actually good" theories depend on a great > many things being predictable and known, actually far more than is > credible. In order for this to have been a plan, then > I think that these objections can be answered > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco had been taken into the > Death Eaters and given the task of killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore says as much when he is talking Draco out of becoming something as odious as a murderer. *He* clearly knows of Draco's task, and the consequences to the Malfoys of his failing. If we are to assume that DD is truly trusting of Snape, then it would be certain that he would have filled Snape in on Draco's problem as well. > ** Snape had to know that Narcissa would come see him and ask him to > swear the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore. He further > had to know how that would fit into future events. This is not necessarily so. When he makes the Unbreakable Vow, we do not know if Snape does indeed know -- as he claims -- LV's plan or Draco's task. He promises to look over Draco and to assist him in his task, whatever that may be. This is -- a not-ESE Snape would feel -- forced by the doubting Bella. He must do this to avoid blowing his cover. This also would explain the topic of the argument witnessed between DD and Snape. Snape tells DD what he has done, and DD lets on what Draco's task is. Snape is horrified, and wants to refuse any part of it. DD lays down the law with Sanpe, just as he will later do with Harry. DD seems to realize, unlike many of the others, that *Harry*, not DD, is the one to do in LV. What it takes to facilitate that -- including sacrificing himself -- it takes. > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco wouldn't have the nerve > to go through with it himself, that he wouldn't just bust a magical > cap in Dumbledore the first time he had his back turned. I would think this is true, but not much of a stretch at all. DD has shown himself to be a shrewd judge of character, able to see deep inside others' heads. He has had five years to asses Malfoy the younger, and arrive at the conclusions he expresses on the tower. DD is also quite aware of the powers of Draco compared to his own. There is little reason to think that a non-fatally weakened DD would fear anything from Draco. > ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to keep Harry > from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes on him after this plan > worked out. > Given that Harry had a pretty good go at Snape directly after the events on the tower, and was parried without much effort, they seem to have succeeded. Besides, Harry killing Snape to defend himself or DD would be self-defense, while killing Snape as he tried to flee Hogwarts would be a summary execution (AKA a vengeful murder). Harry is a hothead, but no murderer. Snape and DD surely know this. > Harry will never believe anything about Snape again ? Harry will try > to kill Snape the first chance he gets. If Snape came to Harry and > tried everything he could to persuade Harry, it would do no good. > Snape couldn't convince any of the Order, either. It's hard to figure > out how Snape can be any good to the Order or Harry after this. > Off the top of my head, I can think of two roles Snape could have in the future. First, he can be a positive influence inside the DE's towards Harry's safety and skills. This comes from s straightforward reading of the events on the Hogwarts grounds post-DD. As they duel, Snape taunts Harry, but also points out the failings in his technique. When another DE has the drop on Harry, Snape calls them off with his story about Harry being only for LV. There is no reason to think of this as anything but an invention of Snape's. The second role could be as an agent within the DE. There could be something Snape will be able to do that requires him to be in the closest circles of the DE cult. He now has the chops to be as close as anyone to LV. This would enable him to to something that may turn out to be critical to Harry's success: a theft or bit of sabotage. > I believe Dumbledore did not seek death, but he didn't shy away from > it, either. He knew the torch was about to be passed from him to > Harry, and was determined to ensure Harry survived. > While I disagree with Jim on ESE Snape, I agree with this. DD shows an understanding of Harry Potter as the chosen one that I do not see in the others. He knows that if LV is to be defeated, Harry will do it, and not as a tool in a DD-concocted scheme. DD has helped Harry by training and other acts of mentoring, but that is probably the extent of his plan. Thanks to DD, Harry (presumably) has the skills and knowledge he needs to be victorious in the end. This done, DD steps aside. DD perhaps did not seek death, but he surely did not fear it. I have no reason to belive that his plan had an entry "and here, I shall die", but I can certainly believe that he would decide that he would die if that helped set Harry up to succeed. Good Snape would be reluctant to participate in this, but would comply. Again, it would not require that they plan for Snape to kill DD, only that they agree that *if* such a situation comes up -- as it did -- that Snape do what must be done for the larger goal of ending LV. Cheers, Hank Alme From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:36:13 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:36:13 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Slytherin=92s_Locket:_Red_Herring_in_the_Cave=3F?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133072 Is Voldemort a bit paranoid? Though I have no canon for it except his secretiveness, I think so. If it's given that he's paranoid, then Would the Dark Lord hide all the true Horcruxes, or would he leave a fake one for any looking for them so that the searcher would assume the locket was destroyed as the note indicated? To make this seem even more authentic perhaps he possessed or cast Imperious on RAB to write the note. He then had or killed RAB. I would think that Voldemort would want to have Slytherin's Locket close to him because the Locket belonged to both Slytherin and his mom. Its significance is obvious. I think Bella is or was responsible for it: Bella: `The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious-- ' (HBP US p29) Perhaps after `killing' Dumbledore, Snape will be in entrusted `with his most precious' Locket. I realize that there's the Locket at 12 G. Place, but maybe it's just a locket. Like the mouth organ from Orphanage!Tom's dresser, it was only ever a mouth organ. Kemper, Who doesn't (want to) believe Snape's betrayal. See post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132923 From grega126 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:40:03 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:40:03 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133073 I think you missed the best possible reason for Snape being a DE. Now, personally, I'm in the Snape is a good guy camp, but here goes what I think is the most convincing reason snape is a bad guy. Sirius, in PoA, says that part of the reason that Pettigrew's been hiding for so long, is b/c the DE's in Azkaban aren't that happy with him. They think that Pettigrew knew that Voldemort was going to meet his end at Harry's place, and they think that Pettigrew planned it that way. So how is it, exactly, that the DE's in Azkaban knew that Pettigrew was a spy, but the DE's out of Azkaban (Snape, specifically) didn't. Snape did, but chose not to tell Dumbledore b/c he didn't need to, his freedom was already assured. The only reason Snape wouldn't tell Dumbledore that Pettigrew was the spy and Sirius wasn't is b/c he's still a loyal DE. grega126 From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 19 17:42:44 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:42:44 -0000 Subject: Wasn't Anyone Else Disappointed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > Maybe it's just postpartum depression after all the wait, but I > thought HBP was disappointing. It lacked the imagination of the > earlier books. For example, the first half could have had much more > humor ? at one point when Ron was and took it out on a first year, I > expected a set up for a nice zinger and all we got was lame > comment "It's not polite to point!" Or part of the fun is that the > witches and wizards have funny names, but in this book we more often > just got "Bob" and "Jimmy" than any interesting names. > I think the "heaviness" of the first part of the book apropriately reflected the seriousness of the Wizarding War. These are dark days for the Wizarding world---disappearances, deaths, anxiety and fear. Serious times. > Part of my disappointment concerned Hermione. She had been my > favorite character in the first five books. In the previous books, I > was always glad when Hermione spoke, but in HBP by page 200 I just > wanted her to leave ? she was always either boring or shrill. And > she showed a nasty streak I never would have expected (turning those > birds on Ron, going out with Cormac just to annoy Ron) ? I guess hell > hath no fury like a teenage witch in love. I thought Hermione was the most "real" in this book. In the other books I found her character to be superficial, emotionless and annoying. While she did continue her annoying habit of showing everyone how well she can memorize textbooks, she was also as close to a teenaged girl as possible. > My least favorite topic ? shipping ? showed the problem. I expected > some fun twists in this area, but all we got was the obvious ? H/G > and Hr/R. It wasn't a perfectly straight line, but still there were > no surprises, only the boringly obvious (obvious at least to the > superficial reading of the issue that someone who, like me, isn't a > shipper gave the issue in the first five books). Maybe she was just > clearly the decks for something interesting in Book7. > I'm one of those unimaginative folks who 2 years ago in this group sided with the people who "saw" the clues that Rowling put out about a Ron-Hermione pairing and a Harry-Ginny pairing. Lots of interesting discussions concerning Rowling's intent, but I'm glad what happened in HBP happened. Frankly, I hope she kills Harry off in Book 7, but again, I can only hope. > The middle of the book was well, dull compared to the other books. > Of course, things picked up at the end, but all I can say is that a > thought forced itself into my mind while reading the middle of HBP > that never ever occurred to me while reading any of the other five > books ? "when will this be over?" > > All this does not bode well for what we can expect in Book 7. I, of > course, still look forward to Book 7, but not with the excitement I > had anticipated before reading HBP. I'll reread it next month and > maybe my opinion will change. > > Richard Jones The bits about Voldemort's history were interesting to me. Rowling handled more like a psychological profile, which I think is what Harry needs to kill Voldemort. And yes, I do think Harry will kill Voldemort in Book 7. I guess I liked the book because I stayed far, far, far away from HP fanfic and I stayed far away from this group (not that I don't like reading what you all have to contribute but I found GoF and OoP to be disappointing and I think it was because the discussions here built my expectations more than necessary.) Once Book 7 comes out, I'll probably take a trip into the fanfic vaults, but I want to remain as "virginal" as possible until then. Milz From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:43:05 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:43:05 -0000 Subject: The logic of DD's Sacrifice doesn't work Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133075 Phoenixgod2000: This has to be brief. I'm on the road for a job interview but I just had to chime in a little on Snape. First of all, let me say that I am not totally convinced one way or another. If the prediction contest taught us all anything it is that an authors mind is a deep and guarded place. That having been said, the mental gymnastics needed to justify Snape are staggering. throughout the book Dumbledore struck me as someone who thought he had more time than he did. He was always putting off questions until a future meeting. He didn't seem to have prepared anyone for his eventual death, which if he thought it was inevitable he would have done. When he was at Draco's mercy he spent the time trying to create a situation in which both of them could survive. He was offering Draco and his mother his and the Order's personal protection. He was trying his hardest to convince Draco, not just for Draco's sake, but his own. He gave every indication of wanting to live. until the moment Snape walked in the door, DD was trying to create a win-win situation between he and Draco. Why did Snape have to stun Flitwick, the only charm master probably powerful enough to break the death eater only barrier on the tower enterence. there wasn't anyone around, so he didn't have to keep up DE pretenses in that moment. I can only conclude that Dumbledore wanted to live and Snape finally revealed his true colors. of course on the other hand, Snape didn't try very hard to hurt Harry in their rather one sided duel until the very end. Something I found very odd. Either Snape was under orders not to hurt Harry from Voldemort or he didn't really want to hurt Harry to begin with. So when is book seven coming out? From medeacallous at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 17:46:51 2005 From: medeacallous at yahoo.ca (medeacallous) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:46:51 -0000 Subject: A lot of thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133076 Hi all; I posted a bit during OotP. I tried to get caught up reading what other people have said before posting but I think it's hopeless so I'll just go ahead :-) 'Big Death' specific comments/questions: 1. At the end of HBP I was certain Snape was loyal to DD, but I've wavered a lot based upon some of the convincing arguments in this forum. Still hope he's not ESE, but I think it could go either way. 2. To me, the issue of whether or not Snape is ESE hinges on the rules of TUV, and whether or not DD knew of Snape's UV. - Did Draco's UV mean that if he didn't fulfill it *that night* he would die? Or would he get another chance? - Did Snape's UV mean the same? If so, how could the scenario have ended differently? Snape fights the DEs, only to die along with Draco? Could Snape have even succeeded at defeating them? I understand what people are saying about DD not asking Snape to kill him because it would harm Snape's soul, but if the alternative is Snape dying, isn't his life worth a little damage to his soul? I can't imagine DD asking Snape to sacrifice his life for him. I don't remember exactly, but didn't DD say something to Harry during the trip to the caves along the lines of DD's life not being as precious as Harry's because he was so much older? 3. I also wonder why DD stunned Potter. The only reason I can come up with is that DD didn't want him to interfere with either Draco or Snape fulfilling their UV; if Potter had succeeded at stopping them they would have died. 4. I don't believe that DD didn't ever, in 16 years or so, discuss with Snape the possibility that Snape would be required to promise, on pain of death, to kill Dumbledore. 5. On the ESE!Snape front (I found a lot of the arguments in favour of this very compelling, but I'm not addressing too many of them because I really *hope* it will turn out not to be true): if Snape had made a prior UV to protect Harry, that would account for Snape's action to help and protect Harry (I'm thinking of - don't we assume Snape told DD about Harry's mistreatment at the Dursleys'?) while leaving him free to hate/hurt Albus. 6. On the redeemed!Snape front: I think the discussion about DD being wrong and his mistakes being bigger has merit (I also like the argument that it's time Harry started listening to his intuition; that's IMO the scariest piece of ESE!Snape evidence), but wasn't DD wrong about an awful lot that night? The wisdom of leaving the castle, Draco's pursuit of DD to kill him, the imperviousness of the castle to DE raids... is it logical that he would *also* be wrong about Snape? 7. And... the most convincing redeemed!Snape evidence (for me) is from OotP, when - sorry, I'm not like you guys who quote chapter and verse - at the end of the book Snape seems to be so pleased to see Minerva return from St Mungo's. General comments/questions: A. Is it possible that Snape fancied Tonks, and that was why he was so nasty to her at the beginning of the year? B. I thought the new MoM was a complete bust. He seemed to me to be exactly like Fudge (actually like some kind of meta!Fudge) but with a different name/appearance. I thought a lot could have been made of him and his conflict with DD; otherwise why bother to get rid of Fudge at all? C. Shipping = YAWN. Sorry, I know they're teenagers, but ... yawn. D. I really wonder what happened to Ollivander, and if it's significant. I like some of the ideas. E. Loved the opening chapter. I LOVED it. F. Some scenes seemed rushed, and some characterisations seemed weak. I mostly agree with what has been said already on the topic. G. I had a thought when I first addressed in my mind the idea of ESE! Snape: After OotP, there was discussion about the potion that had been mentioned (the one that caused recklessness) possibly being fed to Sirius by Kreacher. Did ESE!Snape help Kreacher drug SB? H. Interesting about Tonks; did she change because she took the DM? Would that cause a change to her Patronus? Justify Snape's comment that it was `weak'? Like her? I. Regarding some people's connecting the alterations of different Pensieve memories: Why would Snape tamper with a pensieve memory that he didn't want anyone to see? I just don't buy Snape altering a pensieve memory then arranging for Harry to see it (especially since he gets dangled upside down showing his underwear). I don't think he'd expose his own weaknesses to Harry in that way for arguably negligible returns. J. I find an interesting element about Snape I haven't seen addressed post-HBP: his magical power. I've read a lot of fanfic (particularly SS/HG) where he is made out to be a genius at potions but not so good with a wand, and/or an artless, powerless hanger-on on the outer edges of Voldemort's circle. There were several things in this book and Ootp that suggests to me he's actually a very powerful wizard (among them Remus's respect for his Occ/Leg ability, his facility with silent spells, his easy deflection of Harry's curses at the end of HBP despite the fact that Harry fared better against Voldemort two years earlier, the way the DEs stood back respectfully when Snape strode through them at the end of HBP, his spell creation, etc). I wonder if actually he's a powerful force among the DEs? Maybe LV depends on him quite a lot (and yes, I remember what DD said about LV being a loner) and that's part of why he was so quick to accept him? K. And finally, isn't it interesting that it seems to be shaping up that most if not all of the most powerful magical people are *not* purebloods? Lily, Snape, Tom Riddle, Lily, Harry (I believe it's accepted that even though he has two magical parents he's not a true pureblood). Anyway, enough for me for now; back to reading, and hello to all the people I got to know last time! Medea Callous. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:34:34 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:34:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledores picture Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133077 The fact that DD pic is in the office now indicates that he has in fact passed on. At first it was very easy for me to believe Snape was a dirty double crosser, JKR really sets it up that way in presenting the second chapter. However, upon reflection, there are several things that make me wonder...DD repeatedly made Harry promise to do whatever he asked, even if it meant losing DD. Snape and DD had that argument in the woods...could DD have been making Snape do the same thing? Promise to kill him if the time came? The purpose perhaps that DD knew the potion might kill him, and instead of wasting his death, he could secure Snapes position with the DE's. Which could be why he wanted Snape right away, and why he froze Harry. Snape could redeem himself with the Order by revealing the existance of the Horcrux's. Also, he knocked out Flitwick when he could have killed him. The emotion on his (Snapes) face when killing Dumbledore was not disgust against DD but disgust at having to do the task which he hated, which caused the argument in the woods to begin with; which is why DD pleaded with Snape to do it. There was that moment of eye contact between them...occlumency perhaps? It got the feeling, even when shocked and hating Snape at the end, that Snape was giving Harry DADA lessons while fighting. The fact that Harry called him a coward for killing DD pained Snape something furious because it might have taken all the courage he had to do it (see page 604 US, I believe it is). I would not be surprised to learn later that Snape has also made one of those sealing promises to DD which is why DD trusts him so. He may have even made the promise to keep Harry safe...? I know I had a couple other points...but don't have my notes in front of me. What do you think? (Sorry if my thoughts are fragmented or if someone has already posted similar thoughts. I am not in a place where I can take the time to thoroughly think through either!) casmir2012 From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 17:38:12 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:38:12 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133078 > aikiva now: > > Snape might hate the Potters, but he does not hate Dumbledore. In > fact, I feel he cares so > much for Draco that he is even willing to accomplish what Draco > cannot do. Both > Dumbledore and Snape wants Draco to remain innocent--and even if > Snape has to > sacrifice himself to do it, he will. Interesting that you point this out - I haven't really seen it mentioned yet, and I could be way off base, but when Cissy and Bella visit Snape, does it seem to anyone else like there might be a little...ahem..."tension" between Narcissa and Severus? Or am I perhaps reading even more shipping into an already overcrowded book? If there are no romantic feelings there at all, on either side, it is at least obvious that Snape cares for Narcissa and Draco much more than Bella or, well, it would seem, any of the DEs. Have we ever seen another DE act as Snape did in Chapter 2 and throughout the book, i.e. with compassion and caring? Certainly not Draco's dear daddy. Ah, dear Severus - what an enigma you prove to be... hokus From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:50:22 2005 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:50:22 EDT Subject: Why DD trusts Snape? Message-ID: <81.2beb8c50.300e975e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133079 Has anyone else wondered if the reason DD trusts Snape so unshakably is because Severus has taken an Unbreakable Vow to him? In playing w/ this idea I thought at first that the vow might have been, from the very beginning, to help DD in his eventual death ... and I think DD will somehow, in some form, come back, but his returning somehow hinges on Snape being the one to kill himm. DD was significantly insistent that Severus, not Madam Pomfrey be the one that Harry went to for help. Then I began to wonder if the vow could have been that Snape was to protect Harry. I've always wondered why it was Snape muttering the counter-spell way back w/ that jinxed broomstick. And it might explain part of Severus' virulent animosity toward Harry. While he took the vow in his desire to work against Voldemort, it must be horrendously galling that the object of the vow be the son of his hated school rival. Just wondering if anyone else had been thinking along these lines. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dha at gci.net Tue Jul 19 17:41:17 2005 From: dha at gci.net (jgwahl99517) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:41:17 -0000 Subject: Prophecy - Did Snape hear the whole Prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133080 I noticed a discrepency in what Harry was told about the prophecy by Dumbledore (in OotP) and by Trelawney (in HBP). It seems very clear that Snape was the one that was listening at the door in the Hogs' Head and was caught by Aberforth. Here is where the differences come in. Dumbledore told Harry that the evesdropper only heard part of the prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. Trelawney told Harry in Chapter 25 of HBP that she was at the interview and then felt funny (probably when she gave the prophecy to Dumbledore) but then she told Harry that she remembered Snape being caught at the door. One thing we learned from POA was that when Trelawney gives a prophecy, she "blacks out" and has no recollection of what happened during the time she is giving the prophecy. If Snape had been caught before hearing the whole prophecy, she would have been in the middle of telling the prophecy and not been able to remember the interuption of the interview from its beginning. Some questions that this brings up: - Did Dumbledore send Snape back to Voldemort with orders to reviel the first part of the prophecy but not the whole prophecy? Since Snape was probably a master of Occlemency even then, the second part of the prophecy was still safely hidden. - Was Snape acting because he was sorry he was evesdropping or sorry because he was caught? There is a lot of resentment in Snape. - Was the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape the fact that, even though he knew entire prophecy, he only reported the first part to Voldemort? When Lily and James were killed and Harry marked, Dumbledore then knew that Snape did what he was asked to do. - Dumbledore and Snape would have been put in a mutually awkward position. Snape knew the whole prophecy yet did not tell Voldemort. If Voldemort has found this out that Snape had withheld information, Snape would have died a very gruesome death. However, Dumbledore did not want Voldemort to know the prophecy either, so there was a lot of mutual trust there. Just a few thoughts. Probably missing something, but it is interesting to think about. (Or I may be reading more into it than is actually there.) jgwahl99517 From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:53:45 2005 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:53:45 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greg_a126" wrote: > So how is it, exactly, that the DE's in Azkaban knew that Pettigrew was > a spy, but the DE's out of Azkaban (Snape, specifically) didn't. > Snape did, but chose not to tell Dumbledore b/c he didn't need to, his > freedom was already assured. The only reason Snape wouldn't tell > Dumbledore that Pettigrew was the spy and Sirius wasn't is b/c he's > still a loyal DE. > > grega126 My main difficulty with ESE!Snape is that I don't think all the "snape is awful" evidence in HBP is at all characteristic of JKR's plot-development style so far, if we are truly intended to take it at face value. it's a very clunky exposition in terms of being SOOO ironclad/obvious -- all those questions answered in chapter 2, bambambam -- two whole big books still to go. The nature of Snape is one of the pivotal plot mysteries of the entire series.... do we really believe JKR's going to reveal the mystery at what is (still) a relatively early point? I think it's POSSIBLE that the answer is simple -- that all is as it appears,that Dumbledore was deluded and that Snape is merely wicked (vs. highly flawed but somehow good). That perhaps the lesson is ... i dunno, trust but verify?? However, if the answer is that simple -- if all IS as it appears in HBP -- it will make JKR a lesser craftsperson than most of us believe her to be. This, rather than anything in canon, is what makes me give credence to the "there's still more to Snape" theory. Having both Snape and Draco appear in Book 7, playing some critical but highly unexpected role, wittingly or unwittingly, in the defeat of LV -- this to me would be more characteric of her pattern as a writer, in terms of the plot twists she's presented us with so far. I do think that there's some possibility that Snape IS Evil but will somehow do something that make the defeat of LV possible, even if this is not what he intends. (Something like Gollum at Mount Doom, destroying the Ring unintentionally.) This to me would be less interesting than a twist/redemption, but would satisfy those who complain the evidence of Snape's wickedness is now incontrovertible. Re the complaints that he is sadistic/not nice. Certainly that's absolutely true -- but is "nice" the same as "good" (or "mean" the same as "evil")? I think Snape truly dislikes harry and hated james ... but whether this is connected to him being a wholehearted death eater remains to be seen. Certainly, hating Harry but still wanting to get rid of LV (for whatever reason, remorse being the supposed motivator) ... and knowing that Harry's the one who will make this happen ... would be a pretty interesting state for Snape to be in.... Julie H, chicago From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 17:53:58 2005 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (Devon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:53:58 -0000 Subject: Snape & the Order; Snape & Lily; predictions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133082 Quoted from Rosmerta_Pince "> QUESTIONS: > - Would Voldemort try to make another Horcrux since he knows the > diary was destroyed? Harry could be facing five, not four." Do you think Voldemort knows about the diary? After all, it contained a portion of his soul, but not the portion that is in his body. I don't know if there are connections between the soul pieces in each Horcrux, but even if there are, I don't think Voldemort would inherently know that two of them have been destroyed. He's not so good with the gut feelings...or any feelings in general, really. Another question is: would Dumbledore start the process of destroying all of the Horcruxes if it were easy for Voldemort to find out and put a stop to it? It would make more sense to do it the other way around, if that were the case - kill Voldemort, and then finish it by destroying the Horcruxes. I have searched through my books and I do not see a place where Voldemort mentions the diary (and we didn't know about the ring until HBP, obviously). The Weasleys, Harry, Hermione and Dumbledore are obviously highly unlikely to mention anything. And the only others that would know who are close enough to tell him are the Malfoys and Snape. If Snape is indeed still on the good side (as we all suspect and desperately hope!), then he wouldn't have said anything. And I doubt Lucius Malfoy would want to call attention to it being HIS fault that Voldemort was yet again thwarted by Harry Potter. No, I suspect that Voldemort will figure out in book seven that Harry is in the process of destroying his precious Horcruxes. Pretty good motivation for taking out Lucius in addition to Harry, really. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Devon From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:55:20 2005 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:55:20 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <191.437f9811.300e8ab1@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > Neither, I might add, was Snape. So, are we to assume as Harry did that the > Prince must have been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the *publication* > date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? Certainly possible, > given he was at the school on a need-based scholarship. > Used textbbook. Probably Snape's mother's. Julie H From avery at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 19 17:41:24 2005 From: avery at u.washington.edu (Avery Ke) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:41:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers In-Reply-To: <15d.54ea17b0.300e8562@aol.com> References: <15d.54ea17b0.300e8562@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050719174124.GE9486@gesh.kejia> No: HPFGUIDX 133084 yellows at aol.com wrote: >2. If true, is it possible Regulus is still alive? What is his > purpose in the story? Where would he have hidden the locket? Who > helped him get it? Kreacher? Would Kreacher obey Harry if Regulus was still alive? Regulus living would be a male in the direct line of the Black family, much closer than his -- please correct me if I've mixed up the genealogy -- female cousin Bella. Avery From pjarrett at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 17:55:50 2005 From: pjarrett at gmail.com (Patrick Jarrett) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:55:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledores picture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3def328f05071910557edb6b65@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133085 >From casmir2012's mouth: > > I would not be surprised to learn later that Snape has also made one > of those sealing promises to DD which is why DD trusts him so. He > may have even made the promise to keep Harry safe...? > Patrick's response: I wouldn't be surprised either but then the issue is that that type of vow requires a witness to do the 'binding' as per they did in Chapter 2 of HBP. So then someone else must know or I suppose could have been memory charmed to forget, but doesn't that rather overcome the power of the vow? It would seem that you would be unable to whipe the memory of a vow such as that for the fact that your memory is a binding piece of it. -- Patrick From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 19 17:59:01 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:59:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore was already dying - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133086 I believe that Dumbledore was ALREADY dying...that the quest to acquire the ring did him in...as indicated by his maimed hand...and that Dumbledore told Snape that Snape would have to kill him... In this way, Snape would prove to Lord Voldemort that Snape could truly be trusted. Snape would then be in a position to help/save Harry. Didn't JKR say in one of her interviews that Snape would be the pattern of redemption for others? (Please correct me here) Dumbledore also wants to save Draco. He understands that Draco, like Snape, is now of two minds. He would love to have glory and show Potter and all the rest how important he is. However, he has underestimated (as Dumbledore says) how difficult it is to murder someone. So that assumes that Dumbledore did know about the Unbreakable Vow that Snape made to Narcissa. So, was Snape arguing with Dumbledore that he Snape be allowed to DIE rather than kill Dumbledore? Because he would die if he broke the Unbreakable Vow, right? (I have to assume that he was arguing not to kill Dumbledore, otherwise, what was he arguing with Dumbledore about? Being a spy on LV?) I cannot believe that Dumbledore would ever plead for his own life. He had said that "death is the great adventure". He had just previously with great mental cogency been arguing with Draco, and didn't even hint at pleading with Draco not to kill him. He told Harry quite clearly that HARRY'S LIFE was more important than his own. "Because I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable." said Dumbledore. Why would he send Harry for Snape? Just Snape? Not McGonagall or Tonks or Lupin..why would he want to see Snape? Only, in my theory, if he knew that Snape would kill him, then that's why he sent for Snape. Susan McGee Northern California From madkinson at cox.net Tue Jul 19 17:52:08 2005 From: madkinson at cox.net (amosdiggory99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:52:08 -0000 Subject: Locket and Regulus Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133087 CareALotsClouds says: > > In OotP, chapter of 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' > > a 'locket' is mentioned. Page 108 uk edition: 'There was a > > musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when > > wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak > > and sleep, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; > > a heavy locket that none of them could open...' Also, AdamT > > pointed out that why would JK show Mundungus stealing from the > > house? Greenfirespike says: > Just on the note of who is RAB. No matter who it ends up being, > and I think it is Regulus Black, note that whoever stole the > locket and placed in the fake one must have had help. DD says to > Harry that they needed two people to secure that Horxcrux. I agree that it is Regulus, but I doubt he would have just abandoned the locket at Grimmauld Place without leaving a clue or clues as to how to destroy this (and possibly other) Horcruxes. I don't believe Regulus is still alive, but JKR wouldn't have left so many hints about contacting those already dead without bringing it into play in Book 7. I have a half-forned theory about this (involving the two- way mirror and Dumbledore's portrait) that I will have to post at a later date. Assuming that the other Horcruxes have better protection than did the locket (remeber DD's comment about how crude the doorway was and it is probably safe to assume that this was one of the first ones Voldy set up), then how else will Harry find and destroy them without RAB's clues? He isn't a good enough wizard IMO to do this alone, or even with Ron and Hermione's help. AmosDiggory99 From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 19 18:01:28 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:01:28 -0000 Subject: But however... (the Snape question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133088 Severus Snape in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince I think that the debate won't be closed before a very long time. Actually, I would say that absolutely nothing can currently give us the possibility to make a choice between the two options we are left with. Though we build a strong argumentation, there's always a "but however" to counter it. That's partly what makes the HBP's price. I won't repeat here what the authors of messages 133021, 133033 or 133038, to take just a few examples among many others, already said with very valuable arguments. I will only point out two "but however" that make that I'm unable to choose between the two options. First option: Snape betrayed Dumbledore But however In chapter 24, when Draco is wounded by Harry's Sectumsempra spell, Snape comes and heals him with an "incantation that sounded almost like a song". There's a parallel between Snape and Fawkes, Dumbledore's Phoenix, the songbird with healing powers. Second option: Snape is on the good side But however When Dumbledore meets Harry in chapter 10, Dumbledore says: "as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being ?forgive me- rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." We all know that JK Rowling enjoys misleading her readers with the truth, and she uses to give us clues through small details such as those quoted above. This time, in my opinion, she has managed to do a great job, and she's really the boss, keeping us all waiting and wondering. We can build many theories, collect arguments, there will always be a "But however", a scar in our careful, in all good faith elaborated theories. Truly, the last word belongs to her. Of course this is just my opinion, Amicalement, Iris From ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 17:52:28 2005 From: ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com (ace_of_spades_99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:52:28 -0000 Subject: Phoenix theory and Albus Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133089 I am sure it has been noted by many that Harry thought he saw a phoenix rise joyfully out of the fire at Dumbledore's funeral. This intrigues me greatly. We all know that Fawkes was extremely dedicated to Albus, but could there have been a deeper connection. Was Dumbledore an animagus and if so what was his animal form. If it is a phoenix, could dumbledore have survived death in phoenix form? I am not trying to imply that Albus the man will ever reappear in the books but that perhaps his phoenix form will. In reality he would be very powerful in this situation as well. Dumbledore struck me as rather Obi Wan Kenobi-ish during the astronomy tower scene. He seemed resigned to death and asked Harry to bring Severus exclusively. Perhaps he felt that he would be more powerful in death than in life at this point. Let's face it, Dumbledore's death caused a new level of thought and determination to appear in Harry. His portrait is hung in what is now McGonagall's office and from my understanding the portraits remember their former lives and have the capacity to understand the present (look at the portrait of Phineas.) If this is true he knew his guidance would always be ready to call upon. If Dumbledore thought his death would provoke the neccessary reactions to occur he would have sacrificed himself gladly. He did not fear death as Tom Riddle does. It just seems to me like Albus had anticipated the outcome of his death, and perhaps in phoenix form he can provide Harry with much more assistance. Now that you think back isn't it odd that Dumbledore assigned Snape to give Harry occlumency lessons, that in the end saved Snape at the end of book 6 because Harry did not learn it? But Harry is aware of how to do Occlumency and I'm sure he will put much more effort into it from now on. If you ask me the whole thing was choreographed by Dumbledore to happen exactly the way it did, and I am sure his presence both spiritual and physical are far from gone. ace_of_spades_99 From martyb1130 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 18:00:24 2005 From: martyb1130 at aol.com (martyb1130 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:00:24 EDT Subject: Fawkes Message-ID: <209.54829fb.300e99b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133090 Nice to hear from everyone again. I was wondering where Fawkes is going to end up. We know that he flew away when Dumbledore died, but it does not say where he was going. I think that since Harry was one of Dumbledores most loyal "people" he will fly to the Dursleys. Perhaps Fawkes and Hedwig will become friends and help Harry on his mission to find the remaining horcux's. Brodeur [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cjoseph at wi.rr.com Tue Jul 19 18:06:18 2005 From: cjoseph at wi.rr.com (kjoseph502000) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:06:18 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133091 Could Bella be the horcrux? If LV trusted her with his "most precious...." That would also explain why he carefully took her along with him when he disappeared from the MOM. I'd rather she had to be killed than Harry. kjoseph502000 From amdorn at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 18:09:21 2005 From: amdorn at hotmail.com (amdorn) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:09:21 -0000 Subject: Predictions for book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133092 So far from Books 1-6 Harry must do the following: 1) Find the Hufflepuff Cup 2) Find the Slytherin Locket 3) Find Nagini 4) Find The final Horcrux (still a mystery) 5) Destroy Horcruxes - no easy task, considering how the book and ring were destroyed 6) Find Voldemort 7) Destroy Voldemort Note: These are all literal, no theories or guesses included. The first 5 will be while running from Voldemort and trying to keep Voldemort in the dark with regards to Harry's plans to destroy all the Horcruxes. Knowing how difficult it was for Dumbledore to find the three Horcruxes (book, ring, locket), Harry has his work cut out for him to find the final three (locket, cup, unkown). Then Harry must figure out how to destroy Voldemort. His tasks are immense and intriguing. Am I missing anything on Harry's to do list? I am very excited to find out what sort of riddles and "games" that Harry and co. must work through in order to find and destroy the horcruxes. Amdorn From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 19 18:15:55 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:15:55 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_spy_at_Spinner=92s_End?= In-Reply-To: <42DD1D15.6090804@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alex Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > tylerswaxlion wrote: > > I don't want Love to be a 'fatal' or 'tragic' flaw either, and all > > of you are making me believe that maybe Snape isn't ESE! after all, > > No, Dumbledore's tragic flaw isn't love, but like numerous supposedly > wise old men before him, hubris. To think that he knows best, > master-planning everything... > > little Alex I think that Dumbledore's love and willingness to trust could be BOTH his greatest flaw and his greatest weakness.... That's often the case with truly great individuals. Susan From as_ziggy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:18:34 2005 From: as_ziggy at yahoo.com (as_ziggy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:18:34 -0000 Subject: Why DD trusts Snape? In-Reply-To: <81.2beb8c50.300e975e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > Has anyone else wondered if the reason DD trusts Snape so unshakably is > because Severus has taken an Unbreakable Vow to him? Instead of the Unbreakable Vow, I'm thinking the Wizarding Oath works the same way. Remember how if one wizard/witch saves the life of another, they are somehow bound? I'm sorry but I don't remember which book this was from ... probably The Order of the Phoenix. So anyway this might explain why Snape keeps watching out for Harry. For example, finding him at the Whomping Willow when he crashed into it with the flying car, protecting him from werewolf Lupin, counterspell-ing the broomstick, pretty much always seeming to find Harry in some sort of trouble. To sum: I agree with the reasons below > Then I began to wonder if the vow could have been that Snape was to protect > Harry. I've always wondered why it was Snape muttering the counter-spell way > back w/ that jinxed broomstick. And it might explain part of Severus' > virulent animosity toward Harry. While he took the vow in his desire to work > against Voldemort, it must be horrendously galling that the object of the vow be > the son of his hated school rival. but I think the were brought on by the Wizarding Oath rather than an Unbreakable Vow. I imagine they are rather similar anyway so good thoughts =) AS From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 19 18:21:58 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:21:58 -0000 Subject: Prophecy - Did Snape hear the whole Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jgwahl99517" wrote: > I noticed a discrepency in what Harry was told about the prophecy by Dumbledore (in OotP) and by Trelawney (in HBP). It seems very clear that Snape was the one that was listening at the door in the Hogs' Head and was caught by Aberforth. Here is where the differences come in. > > Dumbledore told Harry that the evesdropper only heard part of the > prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. Trelawney told Harry in > Chapter 25 of HBP that she was at the interview and then felt funny > (probably when she gave the prophecy to Dumbledore) but then she told Harry that she remembered Snape being caught at the door. Pippin: The prophecy isn't that long. Even in a slow portentous voice you can recite the whole thing in about forty seconds. If Snape were caught midway through the prophecy, dragged back from the door, broke away, burst in, and then was apprehended *again*, he would have missed the second part of the prophecy but Trelawney would have no idea that he'd been caught once already, since she's completely out of it when she's in a trance. Pippin From ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:06:10 2005 From: ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com (ace_of_spades_99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:06:10 -0000 Subject: Evil Snape? I think not. In-Reply-To: <42DD309D.8060207@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133096 Jazmyn Concolor wrote: > > Is Snape evil? Had he gone over to the dark side forever? I am not so sure... Hey Jazmyn, I have to agree with you here. At first I was stunned and then angry and then reason kicked in and I came to pretty much the same conclusion. Dumbledore was fully aware of the situation, even from Harry's own mouth. And what of the argument between Snape and Dumbledore that Hagrid overheard. Perhaps Snape wanted to end the charade and would have chose death for himself, but Dumbledore insisted that he stick with it. I don't think Harry's assessment of why Dumbledore trusted Snape was accurate, at least what he told the others. I thought about how Snape was going to pass information on as well, and perhaps it could be through Dumbledore's portrait. We don't know where they are all located except the one in Dumbledore's office. It's a good possibility that one will be accessible to Snape. As there are sure to be a few, as Dumbledore was an extremely famous wizard. And Snape could have at least petrified Harry and delivered him to the dark lord himself. In the chaos of the moment Harry's absence might have been momentarily overlooked in the light of Dumbledore's death. If he was truly afraid of LV's wrath because Potter was only to be dealt with by LV, why not just deliver him an unconscious and unarmed potter? It just doesn't add up to Snape being evil, although I am afraid Snape may have to pay for a crime he committed out of duty. He will have no ally in the order due to Harry's witnessing of Dumbledore's death, unless dumbledore himself (in painting form perhaps) explains the situation to someone else. Hanna Delacour From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:24:15 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:24:15 -0000 Subject: JKR knows the fans and her characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133097 Lupinlore: "It seemed to me that large segments of HBP were written to please/placate/pacify certain sections of the fandom. I don't mean that as a criticism, by any means, since I think any author ignores their fans to their peril. Still, it was striking how things worked out." Siriusly Snapey Susan: "Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list." She certainly was. JKR is very in tune with what's in the fans' minds and responds. She's used her space to torpedo some theories, too. (We have Amelia Bones's blood on our hands.) I wish I had a Galleon for every wrong theory I proposed, including my favorite ship and favorite theory. I believe that very little of what turned out could be found in tiny clues in the text. I've never thought that JKR was "tricky." What she is is subtle. Patrick O'Brian is the only other author of the last century who has given us characters as vivid as JKR's. Everything she does makes sense in terms of human nature. We may not know what's going to happen, but we know who the characters are; Harry will be Harry, Ron will be Ron, and JKR will always know who they are. Like every other human, they can surprise us. Harry's sense of fellowship and his generosity: How many would give his friends his last portions of Felix Felicis to protect them while going into danger himself? Dumbledore's trusting nature? Dumbledore is Dumbledore to the very end, even when it costs him. His courage? He always does what must be done, no matter what. Draco? We always should have known that the little b*****d was good for something like this, even though we didn't know what it was going to be. We also had a pretty good idea he may not have the guts to go through with it, which he didn't. Maybe his anxieties humanized him, but that still doesn't make him a good human. All of the characters are as flawed and vulnerable as we all are. Whatever mistakes they make, they'll get through. Jim Ferer From ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:17:14 2005 From: ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com (ace_of_spades_99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:17:14 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133098 Mrs. Hermione Snape wrote: > I think the infamous R.A.B. is Borgin, of Borgin and Burkes.... > I sincerely doubt that it is Regulus Black. Sirius said he doubted > that his brother was ever important enough for Voldermort to kill him > himself. Also, in book 5, R. Black has been dead 15 years. Sirius > was, at most, 40. So his younger brother would have been, at MOST, 24 > when he died. Probably younger. He wouldn't have the experience or > importance to discover the Horcruxes, know how to handle them, or even > to write a well-composed note like that. Also, wouldn't Harry, Ron, > Hermione, or whoever found the locket have noticed the S for Slytherin > on it? The description in OOP of the locket they found only said that > it refused to open. If it is indeed *THE* locket, I'm sure the Blacks > acquired it after R.A.B. (Borgin?) was through with it. > > Mrs. Hermione Snape I imagine you may be onto something there, Borgin was aware of the existence of the locket. As it was not a widely traded item to begin with it definately limits the number of people who should have known of it's existence. Furthermore, we know that Tom left Borgin and Burkes at the drop of a hat, but we don't know why... Perhaps it ties into this in the end. Good theory, and the fact that we don't know Borgin's first name just lends to it even more, J.K.R. has a sometimes slytherin habit of leaving out just enough info to things that have the greatest importance. On this note, we know the vanishing cabinet was at Borgin and Burke's at the time Draco went in the store, but was it moved before the death eater raid on Hogwarts... if Mr. Borgin has no love for the dark lord can you imagine letting a whole host of death eaters trample through your store and be implicated in the whole debacle by the ministry and facing a possible sentence in azkaban? ~ Hanna Delacour From lizvega3 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 18:10:40 2005 From: lizvega3 at aol.com (lizvega_2) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:10:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's "defection"...the timing's off. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133099 Of course, this could be interpreted in a number of ways, but the timing, as far as Harry knows, doesn't add up. In Spinner's End, Snape tells Bella and Cissy that he was at Hogwarts when Voldemort fell, placed their under LV's orders. Fast forward 16 years and Dumbledore tells Harry that delivering the news of the prophesy to LV, and the ramifications of doing so, was perhaps the greastest regret of Snapes life. Harry assumes, and tells the other's in the hospital wing, that Snape came to Hogwarts because of his parents murder, not before it. So, either Snape was lying to Bella about the timing, which I doubt, because she concurred that she knew he was there on LV's orders before LV fell, or Harry got the timing, and, subsequently the reason wrong. I suspect the latter. Dumbledore hesitated, tried to make up his mind about something, before he gave the same old story about trusting Snape. Snape didn't come back to Hogwarts after LV fell, but before, and with a very good story. One other thing that struck me was the scene in which LV comes back to Hogwarts for a job. I wonder how similar this scene was to the one when Snape came back. What's interesting, is that DD knew he couldnt' give LV a job, but Snape was worthy. "LizVega" From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Tue Jul 19 18:28:48 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:28:48 -0000 Subject: Odd thought re McGonagall & other random replies & questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133100 Why do you suppose that Harry chose not to reveal any part of the plan to Minerva at the end of HBP? He was told to trust his friends because they'd earned it, so Hermione & Ron would be in on the details. But why not Minerva? Snape: I think he's a good guy. I will only be repeating what others have said better and more often, so I'll leave it at that. I don't think he's changed back over to the DE camp. Harry, to live or die: I do believe that his scar is a horcrux. Will Harry live to the end of the series? I don't know. I see irony in the nickname, "The Boy Who Lived" because he may well end up being the man who died. He may well sacrifice himself (because of love, the powerful force which LV has not) so that others will live. RAB: I like the idea that it is NOT Regulus Black, but rather someone else - Borgin from the shop. JKR already has a history of making us think one thing, but then heading us down a different path. Question: I still don't get what the significance is of Lily's eyes and her talent with charms. Nothing seemed to be mentioned in HBP, so I'm still confused as to why this is so, so important. Ideas? DD's death: It had to happen. I'd like to know more about the potions (Slugworth? Snape?) that he drank in the cave. So many unanswered questions..... Kathi From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 18:23:47 2005 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (Julie W) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:23:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <3def328f05071906175d254948@mail.gmail.com> References: <3def328f05071906175d254948@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42DD4533.2040407@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133101 Patrick Jarrett wrote: >I was surprised by JKR's use of 'slut' when Morfin refers to >Voldemorts mother. I mean, this is a children's book. > Or where Ron almost calls Ginny one: Pg 287 "Yeah, it is!" said Ron, just as angrily. "D'you think I want people saying my sister's a -----" "A what?" shouted Ginny, drawing her wand. "A /what/, exactly?" All I could think of was all the Homakover!Ginnys out there in fanfiction. I loved that little exchange. Ginny has quite a temper and is a girl that just does not take anything from anyone. Julie W. From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 18:25:25 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:25:25 -0000 Subject: Snape & the Order; Snape & Lily; predictions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Devon" wrote: > Do you think Voldemort knows about the diary? >...And I doubt Lucius Malfoy would want to call attention to it > being HIS fault that Voldemort was yet again thwarted by Harry > Potter. No, I suspect that Voldemort will figure out in book > seven that Harry is in the process of destroying his precious > Horcruxes. Pretty good motivation for taking out Lucius in > addition to Harry, really. > > Anyone else have thoughts on this? Actually, Dumbledore states (sorry, don't have the book with me here) in HBP that Voldemort was "very angry" when he found out about the diary being destroyed. That, combined with the ministry fiasco, is the reason, as DD states, that LV is so angry with Lucius. Personally, I think Voldemort has made his Horcruxes, and created his 7 part soul. He says, in the pensieve flashback with Sluggy, that 7 is the most magically powerful number. If he's created this, I think he has enough faith in magic and it's principles (indeed, that's his whole life) to think that the 7 part soul he created will stand and be enough, and that creating any more would only weaken him. Actually, he may also be a bit wary of splitting his soul any more, as well. Hard to say, but I'm willing to bet that Tom Riddle has decided 7 is enough. Hokus7 From avery at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 19 18:30:43 2005 From: avery at u.washington.edu (Avery Ke) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:30:43 -0400 Subject: Rednecks Message-ID: <20050719183043.GF9486@gesh.kejia> No: HPFGUIDX 133103 cayres1 wrote: >My little brother (who, at age 20, is not that little) made me >laugh when he said: "Voldemort's a redneck!" (Though, to be >perfectly correct, it's his mother's family, not him). Well, not precisely, since a redneck is defined as a "a poor white person in the southern United States." I don't know the British equivalent. A peasant, a yeoman? For my part, I found this section of the book particularly poignant. LV has grand dreams of his birth family, but his actual lineage makes his dreams ludicrous. His father's family are muggles, and not particularly nice muggles. So far is Tom Riddle from being a compassionate and responsible land-owner that his only reaction to the Gaunt's poverty and squalor is regret that he cannot tear down the shack and (presumably) order the family to move on. ----begin quote (Chapter 10, page 209 in US edition) "My God, what an eyesore!" rang out a girl's voice, as clearly audible through the open window as if she had stood in the room beside them. "Couldn't your father have that hovel cleared away, Tom?" "It's not ours," said a young man's voice. "Everything on the other side of the valley belongs to us, but that cottage belongs to an old tramp called Gaunt, and his children. The son's quite mad, you should hear some of the stories they tell in the village-- The girl laughed. ----end quote Further, LV's mother's family, although pure-bred, has sunk into poverty, squalor, and (in the uncle's case) alcoholism. No wonder LV's face shows "disgust, and perhaps disappointment" when he finally meets his uncle (Chapter 17, page 364 US ed.) If it were possible for me to feel sorry for LV, I would do so now. Avery From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:34:37 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:34:37 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry.../Snape/ and more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133104 1. I agree that the finial Horcrux is in Harry. 2. I think that Snape is still working for DD. IMO Snape told DD about the vow and they are trying to keep Draco from becoming a killer. They are trying to save his soul, while they still can. I was very surprised to see that Draco didn't have it in him to kill. Maybe he is the good Slytherin you all are looking for. Also I think that Snape might have some *special* feelings for Narcissus. He seemed very happy to see her. And she really loves her son. Are we sure that she is a DE herself. Yes, her husband is and her sister is, but maybe she isn't??? Do all those that agree with or follow LV become DE?? I can't remember if it says in other books that she is a DE. 3. I was rather surprised that Snape got the DADA position, and that he is the HBP, and that the HBP does not mean a real prince!! Kinda shoots some of my ideas all to ----- I enjoyed the Spinners End chapter best. Thought it was very well written and, of course, explained some of the mystery of the hands we saw on the cover of the UK book. I enjoyed seeing the two sister interacting, and the almost tenderness that Snape shows. Chapter I. was interesting. I wondered which country the *president* was from. Could be U.S. or France. Interesting bit of author comment, I think. (being a Democrat from the U.S., I like to think that it was the U.S. president.) I liked the fact that unlike the 2-5th books, the beginning didn't drag. I thought it started to drag a bit in the middle with all of the Quidditch and *shipping* stuff. I was a bit disappointed in the author for putting all of the shipping stuff in there. It was as if she was trying to pacify the readers who wanted to see that, and I don't think that she should have written anything that she did not originally intend to write. Course I was right about all of the relationships, so that is good! ;-) Ya, Lupin in my man!! And Luna and Neville will marry and live happy ever after too. Neville will be a Herbologist. I am broken hearted about DD. I am in denial too. I held out some hope for him not really being dead, but when his portrait was hanging on the wall... well I can't even type this without crying. Part of me hates you all for predicting it, and her for killing him off. I hate this *the old mentor must die so the hero can go on by himself* crap. OK so it is a classic hero story or something, that doesn't mean that I have to like it. I am just SO depressed!!! I really love DD. :-( Tonks_op From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:23:08 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:23:08 -0000 Subject: Green Goop/Red Rubies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133105 Question: Why couldn't they dip the cup in the green stuff and then pour it out on the floor? Also, wasn't that great imagery when all the red rubies fell out? In my head I saw tons of rubies gushing out the main door of Hogwarts as if the castle had been wounded and was now bleeding... casmir2012 From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:37:28 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:37:28 -0000 Subject: Why DD trusts Snape? In-Reply-To: <81.2beb8c50.300e975e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > Has anyone else wondered if the reason DD trusts Snape so unshakably is > because Severus has taken an Unbreakable Vow to him? > > In playing w/ this idea I thought at first that the vow might have been, > from the very beginning, to help DD in his eventual death ... and I think DD > will somehow, in some form, come back, but his returning somehow hinges on Snape > being the one to kill himm. DD was significantly insistent that Severus, > not Madam Pomfrey be the one that Harry went to for help. > > Then I began to wonder if the vow could have been that Snape was to protect > Harry. I've always wondered why it was Snape muttering the counter-spell way > back w/ that jinxed broomstick. And it might explain part of Severus' > virulent animosity toward Harry. While he took the vow in his desire to work > against Voldemort, it must be horrendously galling that the object of the vow be > the son of his hated school rival. > > Just wondering if anyone else had been thinking along these lines. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] The Unbreakable Vow requires a third party, and so far no one has hinted that they understand why DD trusts Snape so much. Of course, this alone does not negate the hypothesis. A third part could have been there and (1) is a very good at keeping secrets or (2) has not been introduced. However, in JKR's interview with Mugglenet and Leaky Cauldren, she stated that the cast of characters has been introduced, with only a minor character or two to be added in book 7. Julie From ar_hp03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:40:27 2005 From: ar_hp03 at yahoo.com (ar_hp03) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:40:27 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133107 > Interesting that you point this out - I haven't really seen it > mentioned yet, and I could be way off base, but when Cissy and Bella > visit Snape, does it seem to anyone else like there might be a > little...ahem..."tension" between Narcissa and Severus? Or am I > perhaps reading even more shipping into an already overcrowded book? Hokus, You are not the only one who noticed this "tension". This thought has refused to let me be. Considering the lone warrior that Severus is, it does seem odd that he would "feel" so much for a friend's son. However, he could feel a lot more concern for an old flame or even old love's son. Now, how many people go about getting into unbreakable vows just to protect their friend's children esp when you know fully well that the friend Lucius probabaly does not even consider you an equal just because you are not a pure-blood ? > If there are no romantic feelings there at all, on either side, it > is at least obvious that Snape cares for Narcissa and Draco much > more than Bella or, well, it would seem, any of the DEs. Have we > ever seen another DE act as Snape did in Chapter 2 and throughout > the book, i.e. with compassion and caring? Certainly not Draco's > dear daddy. > You hit the nail on this one Hokus. I think Snape cares for Narcissa. Through out the book, Snape tells Draco that he has to look out for Draco since he, Snape, has promised Narcissa. Never once does he tell Draco that he is cares about him just for himself. I hope I am making sense here. > Ah, dear Severus - what an enigma you prove to be... Indeed ! Ar From mcleanaliz at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 18:41:53 2005 From: mcleanaliz at gmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:41:53 -0000 Subject: Although... maybe less than 70 percent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133108 The Snape!notESE theorists are described as clinging to a desperate hope by JKR. Oh dear. Maybe it's Sirius all over again, and we're just wishful thinkers and Snape IS ESE and everything is awful? Here's the quote from www.the-leaky-cauldron.org OR www.mugglenet.com Love, Alice "MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil? JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think? ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically. MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim - JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] - ES: Yes! MA: Yes! ES: Like certain shippers we know! [All laugh] JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously ? Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories. ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes. [Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree. ES: How can someone so - JKR: Intelligent - ES: be so blind with regard to certain things? JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He's always the one who gives, he's always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that." From yutu75es at yahoo.es Tue Jul 19 18:42:39 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:42:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes References: <209.54829fb.300e99b8@aol.com> Message-ID: <007901c58c91$a4ffc7e0$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 133109 Brodeur wrote: > Nice to hear from everyone again. I was wondering where Fawkes is going to > end up. We know that he flew away when Dumbledore died, but it does not > say > where he was going. I think that since Harry was one of Dumbledores most > loyal > "people" he will fly to the Dursleys. Perhaps Fawkes and Hedwig will > become > friends and help Harry on his mission to find the remaining horcux's. Me (Fridwulfa): Well, I think Harry will inherit Fawkes. Jk said once that Harry might get a new pet and, although she could be talking about Buckbeat, I think it was Fawkes she had in mind. Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From mcleanaliz at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 18:48:13 2005 From: mcleanaliz at gmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:48:13 -0000 Subject: Green Goop/Red Rubies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > Question: Why couldn't they dip the cup in the green stuff and then > pour it out on the floor? Alice: Maybe the same reason DD can't drink the water Harry conjures for him... but it sure is strange that they didn't think of it. Incidentally, it's a good thing Harry's in 6th grade seeing as you only start learning conjuring in that year - even if his talents don't yield anything in that particular case. > Also, wasn't that great imagery when all the red rubies fell out? In > my head I saw tons of rubies gushing out the main door of Hogwarts as > if the castle had been wounded and was now bleeding... Alice: Yeah, that was a good one! My third and therefore last post for today, oh dear. Must go to bed. Love, Alice From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 18:56:32 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:56:32 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Signing posts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133111 Several blearly-eyed, grimily-attired, exhausted elves stumble forth into the room, blinking in the bright light. One elf unrolls a very short scroll of parchment, from which she reads: "Please, please, everyone. Sign your posts!" "That's it," squeaks the littlest elf. "Just remember how much easier it is for list members if they know how to refer to you when they respond to your post." "Yes, thank you very much," remarks a rather Kranky-looking elf. The scroll safely tucked away, the elves scurry back into the pendings queue. Shorty Elf, for the HPfGU Admin Team From logic_alley at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:57:44 2005 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:57:44 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > R.A.B. = Regulus Black > I didn't have any particular idea who R.A.B. was when I finished reading, but when I started re-reading, suddenly I noticed Regulus is mentioned at least 3 times within about the first 100 pages (106 actually). And for no real reason, except to keep him in play, I think. Foreshadowing. The Kreacher theory sounds right on, too. From cijimcb at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:38:29 2005 From: cijimcb at yahoo.com (Ciji) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:38:29 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133113 Hi, new here, thought I'd chime in... Now, I'm no fan of Snape by any means, I'm still clinging to the hope that Snape was bound by the 'unbreakable vow' to kill Dumbledore, hoping mostly for Dumbledore's sake. Remember how he hesitated before making that last promise? Keep in mind, the goal all along was to kill Dumbleore, not Harry. I'd like to hope that Dumbledore, the greatest and most powerful wizard for the age and the only one that Voldemort fears, was not so easily dispatched by Snape. I'd hate to think that Dumbledore was done in by his own blind trust, rather than in a great battle versus a powerful wizard. I also have come to realize why Sirius had to die in OotP. Sirius was to only person who truly saw and accepted who Snape really was. Despite Dumbledore's trust, Sirius never bought Snape's act. Had Sirius been alive, he would have completely sided with Harry and done everything in his power to stop Snape. Finally, I can accept that Sirius had to die, because if he hadn't, HBP would be a very different book. I also agree with whomever said that there is no way Snape can survive book 7. He's pledged alliegance to 2 sides-- Voldemort and Dumbledore, and breaking a promise always has consequnces. And how do we know Snape didn't make some type of vow to Dumbledore, something along the lines of "in the event of your death, I , Severus Snape, promise to..." No doubt Snape will play a MAJOR role in book 7. I hope Harry kills him... with pain. What is also interesting is how accomplished an Occulemens/Legimens Snape is, and how poor at both tasks Dumbledore seems (seemed) to be. Tho' I didn't fully trust Snape, who knew he was that dang good! I guess when you have no friends in high school, you have a lot of time on your hands... Lastly, it would be great to think that Dumbledore took precautions 'just in case' he died to return to life, like a pheonix, but that would mean he'd need a horcrux, right? But like someone posted earlier, Dumbledore thought he had plently of time to get his affairs in order, so to speak. And Dumbledore doesn't strike me as someone who'd try to 'cheat' death or live past his time. At best, we can hope Dumbledore's essence is in a painting on a wall at Hogwarts. At worst, we can expect he is gone for good. "Ciji" From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Tue Jul 19 19:07:42 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:07:42 -0000 Subject: Lily's eyes & charms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133114 Ok, there was a brief mention of this - but I still don't understand what is the significance. Are we to expect this to be answered in Book 7? And will JKR finally give a complete account of what took place that night that Lily & James were killed? Kathi, who wants Book 7 now! now! now! From morianna at mindspring.com Tue Jul 19 18:50:09 2005 From: morianna at mindspring.com (Morianna) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:50:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "The Prince" References: Message-ID: <008001c58c92$bdeeb9e0$210110ac@MoriLaptop> No: HPFGUIDX 133115 I don't think this posting contains MAJOR SPOILAGE, but just in case, may I present S P O I L E R S P A C E for the very squeamish. Anywho... Was googling along, minding my very own business, when I entered "severus" and "prince" in the search thingy. I was asstonished to find text of Machavelli's "The Prince." Recalling my (much) earlier days in academia, I proceeded to re-read the text. And, lo... Paragraphs 18-22-ish http://www.bartleby.com/36/1/19.html Anyone intrigued by this reading? Not just the obvious "Severus", but other symbolisms (Lions) and names (Albinus) seem to leap off the page. I'd be interested in another perspective. That Rowling, she's just sneaky enough to have planted clues like this from all sorts of classical references... Prof Mori. Muggle Studies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:16:10 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Initial Snape thought In-Reply-To: <20050719134347.55223.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050719191611.60366.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133116 S P O I L E R S P A C E Who would ever have thought that Snape's mum was a gobstones champ? Magda (still pondering HBP) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Jul 19 18:55:04 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:55:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133117 S P O I L E R A L E R T S P A C E S P O I L E R After finishing HBP, I was ready to cast unforgiveable curses at JK Rowling. It was not that I didn't know DD was going to die. Aside from the leaks, I knew that the old wise mentor always has to die so that the young hero can go on alone to fulfill his destiny. It was the manner of his death--by treachery--a weak, old man pleading for his life with the murderous snake he had nursed at his bosom for 16 years that I couldn't stand. It seemed to me to render the character of Dumbledore completely false. AS Harry thought to himself, it is "the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people would say there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew--and so do I, thought Harry ... that there was all the difference in the world." (p. 512) The greatest wizard of his age, one of the greatest of all time, not only powerfully magical, but able to read the mysteries of the human mind *and* heart, taken in by the one he had championed beyond all others in his collection of half-breeds, outcasts, and second chancers, just because that one was an accomplished occlumens and DD "has to believe the best of people". There had to be another interpretation. Either that or it's Rowling, not Potter, who is the rotter. After vowing never to read or even think about any part of the book again, (I vow I didn't realy think I could keep.) I reread the ending and these words lept out at me: Malfoy: " You're at my mercy..." "No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy and not yours that matters now" (p. 592) I read the rest of that chapter and some other earlier passages with a new take. Right after the Christmas vacation, Dumbledore is aware of Snape's unbreakable vow--from Harry, though I think he is already aware of it. "Yes Harry, blessed as I am with extraordinary brain power, I understand everything you told me," said Dumbledore a little sharpley. "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did." " I have been tolerant." he says a little later when Harry questions once more his trust of Snape. (Practically every time DD gets shirty with Harry it is for this same reason.) I think there is something we still don't know about DD's "iron-clad reason" for trusting Snape. Perhaps it is some kind of magical bond. At any rate, I think Dumbledore has decided to sacrifice himself to save Draco and orders Snape to carry it out. This is the basis of the argument Hagrid overhears. "Anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed to do it an' that was all there was to it." (p.405-406) I don't know why Snape doesn't want to kill Dumbledore (I would like to believe it's a noble reason but I'm sure JKR doesn't), but I believe it is tied to this passage. (After calmly, "lazily" deflecting Harry's curses in his usual dispassionate sneering manner, Snape looses it when Harry accuses him of cowardice for the second time.) "DON'T----" screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the howling yelping dog stuck in the burning house behind them---"CALL ME COWARD!" In short, as much as I would like for Snape to be redeemed (and Dumbledore would too, though I don't think Rowling does), I don't think that's going to happen, but I do think that we will find out in book 7 that DD chose his end, he walked into the arena with his head held high. houyhnhnm From prncssme at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:21:06 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:21:06 -0000 Subject: Ch. 2 Inconsistency - Snape is not evil! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133118 I've been just skimming the posts so far today (I can't keep up!) but I don't think that anyone's mentioned this yet. There is a major inconsistency in what Snape tells Bella and 'Cissy about DD's hand injury and what DD himself tells Harry! Quotes follow: "The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were" (pg 31, Scholastic Deluxe Edition). Upon first reading of this line, my husband and I immediately assumed that Snape was saying that the injury happened during the MoM duel at the end of OotP. In fact, we had to re-read the part where DD tells Harry about receiving the injury after destroying the first Horcrux because we were confused. Snape appears to be purposely misleading Bella (and us, consequentially) into thinking that DD was hurt in the duel with LV. Why would he conceal the real source of DD's injury if he was ESE? I argue that it is because he doesn't want any hint of the true cause to reach LV and the DEs. He KNOWS about the Horcrux being destroyed because he helped save DD from whatever curse it was that destroyed his hand. He knows what DD is really up to but he isn't sharing this information with the "dark side". - Princess Sara From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:02:04 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:02:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133119 Pat: > I think my ship of H/Hr still sails, it's just been pirated > temporarily. So I'd call this the "Pirate Ginny" theory. > > Further, I know Jo wants to include twists ala Jane Austen, and I > think this is one of the bigger ones in HBP. > > I'm hoping what Ginny has done comes out as early as Bill and Flem's > wedding. Then Hermione can go back to being Harry's partner in > finding the horcruxes, as it should be. Maybe Fred and George will > ask how the potion worked out for her, or declare that some of their > stock is missing. Now, I can't wait for book 7. > Casmir: I am not a shipper at all. I don't care who ends up where. Now with that in mind, I think there are some other clues being overlooked. Look how Hermione reacted to Harry being better at potions. She NEEDS to excel. Her very self esteem depends on that. We know Harry is only going to get better and stronger, which will be threatening to Hermiones ego if they were in an intimate relationship, she would always be competing/feeling bad about herself. Ron on the other hand is no competition at all, and in fact makes her feel needed. And he is perfectly fine to be taken care of and not do much work. Also, Harry and Ginny seem to both require a certain amount of personal freedom. Since they both require it, they seem to understand each other's need for it and back off. Tonks/Lupin blew me out of the water. I have never seen them interact really so I didn't see it coming, nor understand their bond, yet. I love Luna! She is so entertaining! -Casmir From prncssme at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:24:18 2005 From: prncssme at yahoo.com (prncssme) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:24:18 -0000 Subject: "The Prince" In-Reply-To: <008001c58c92$bdeeb9e0$210110ac@MoriLaptop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133120 > Anyone intrigued by this reading? Not just the obvious "Severus", but other symbolisms (Lions) and names (Albinus) seem to leap off the page. I'd be interested in another perspective. That Rowling, she's just sneaky enough to have planted clues like this from all sorts of classical references... > > Prof Mori. > Muggle Studies I have that passage highlighted in my copy of The Prince! :o) And I would not be at all surprised to find out she had indeed read Machiavelli...Machiavelli also mentions an evil "Lucius" quite a bit. ;o) - Princess Sara From elanor.isolda at btinternet.com Tue Jul 19 19:02:05 2005 From: elanor.isolda at btinternet.com (Elanor Isolda) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:02:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a01c58c94$5b1c58c0$0202a8c0@PC821926347325> No: HPFGUIDX 133121 grega126: > I think you missed the best possible reason for Snape being a DE. > > [snip] > > So how is it, exactly, that the DE's in Azkaban knew that Pettigrew was > a spy, but the DE's out of Azkaban (Snape, specifically) didn't. Given that most of the DEs went to school with the Marauders, I consider it unlikely that they would all have been told that Pettigrew was a spy just in case one of them had the reaction that Snape did. After the event, it probably would have been divulged by those who were in the know and were after Pettigrew's blood, but at that time Snape was being outed as a spy for the Order so I doubt he would have been included in the memo. Elanor From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Tue Jul 19 19:06:24 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:06:24 -0000 Subject: ESE!Flitwick - - We can't believe Snape is bad! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133122 Don't forget, Flitwick is part goblin, and > we have had no evidence throughout the book that the goblins would > choose to side with the Ministry against Voldemort. JKR has said in interview that she always thought of Flitwick as just a very small wizard. She was surprised he looked so goblin-like in the movie. I don't think Flitwick as a goblin is canon. HogwartsMom From amanda_k429 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:02:03 2005 From: amanda_k429 at yahoo.com (amanda_k429) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:02:03 -0000 Subject: HBP Reactions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133123 I must say that this is my favorite book of the series (so far, at least, I'm sure 7 will hit me hard)! I really appreciated all of the information we got from this, even if we still have unanswered questions. But, that's the point of a series, right? Snape: Like many of you, the first time I completed reading the AK sequence, I was infuriated. I could think of nothing more than Snape being killed, and fast. Even as he ran away, all I could think about was how cold it was of him to do what he did. After some time to contemplate the scene again, I have decided that he is definitely not loyal to Voldemort. There are so many reasons, and most of them have been voiced, so I won't get into details. DD: I hate to say it, but I do believe he's definitely dead. I would have been looking for his portraits absence as a clue to him still being alive, but that did not happen. I would say that there's a possibility that he could play a part in 7 in some way, but I don't want to get my hopes up like I did for Sirius. Horcruxes: I don't think Harry has any part of him as a Horcrux. That would be too far-fetched and complicated for my taste. Personally, I don't see Harry dying at the end, either, but that's just what I want :-) As for the other Horcruxes, I had forgotten about the locket that was found at 12 GP! I do think that RAB is Regulus, and that the locket should be at 12 GP. The unknown Horcrux is totally unknown to me! I don't even want to venture a guess. RAB: As I said before, I do think that this refers to Regulus Black. I don't know about the Kreacher theory, although it sounds good, but I do believe that Regulus was killed because he had shown some desire for Voldemort to lose power. I also think that the fact that he didn't seem important enough to be killed by Voldemort himself has a link with Pettigrew, since he seems very unimportant at the moment, but may have something up his sleeve in the next book. I don't really know what else to say about it right now. I just started my re-read last night! I'm sure I'll come up with more. ~Amanda~ From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 19:12:53 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn Berger-Barrera) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:12:53 -0400 Subject: Silly, Nitpicky Question about Hermione's OWLs Message-ID: <42DD50B5.4080503@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133124 Greetings All, There are major questions and happenings in this book My question involves none of these. (p.103 - Scholastic edition) Hermione got 11 OWLs - all O's except for DADA, in which she got an E. She took Astronomy, Care of Magical Creatures, DADA, Charms, Herbology, History of Magic, Potions, Transfiguration, Arithmancy, and Ancient Runes. I thought she dropped both Divination and Muggle Studies after that year with the Time Turner. How did she get 11 OWLS? What did I overlook? Jocelyn From dha at gci.net Tue Jul 19 19:23:00 2005 From: dha at gci.net (jgwahl99517) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:23:00 -0000 Subject: Prophecy - Did Snape hear the whole Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133125 > > Pippin: > The prophecy isn't that long. Even in a slow portentous voice you can > recite the whole thing in about forty seconds. If Snape were caught > midway through the prophecy, dragged back from the door, broke away, > burst in, and then was apprehended *again*, he would have missed the > second part of the prophecy but Trelawney would have no idea that > he'd been caught once already, since she's completely out of it when > she's in a trance. > There area lot of unknowns. DD originally told Harry that the evesdropper was caught and thrown out. DD's pensive memory showed the memory without interuption. I would think that someone being caught outside the door in the middle of the prophecy would have provided enough of a distraction to interupt the memory. Yet the memory is unbroken. (That also assumes that DD didn't edit the memory afterwards) There is so much just below the surface we need to find out in Book 7. jgwahl99517 From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 19 19:41:06 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:41:06 -0000 Subject: Wormtail/Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133126 No, I'm not suggesting a 'Ship (lol).... Several different topics... What will be the role of Peter Pettigrew? He owes Harry his life. He has been relegated to the role of servant to Severus Snape, and is listening at the door. Snape will now become Lord Voldemort's most trusted and valued ally, having killed Albus Dumbledore. How will Wormtail react to that? Will he consider yet another betrayal? Will Draco return to Hogwarts? (If Hogwarts remains open -- I will say yes, given Hagrid's determination to stay)... McGonagall already knows that he tried to murder Professor Dumbledore, and that he almost killed Katie Bell and Rupert -- whoops -- I mean Ronald Weasley. I think Horace Slughorn is a wonderful character...full of complications and interesting qualities....another trick on her fans, as well as on triad, since we all assumed that Slughorn would be the new DADA teacher.... Okay, Dumbledore KNEW that Snape would only be the DADA teacher for one year....because we now know that Lord Voldemort (and btw one of the most chilling scenes is LV's interview with DD for the DADA teacher position) put a curse on the position...is that the REAL reason that Dumbledore didn't give Snape the job earlier? And Luna..isn't she great? Her commentary at the Quidditch match, her role as the teller of uncomfortable truths, her wonderful comment at the Slug party? Susan McGee, northern California From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:26:47 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:26:47 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133127 I must first say that I am never right and usually don't "get" alot of things out of the books until I read the internet postings (sometings I feel like 'I could've had a V8'!!!), but here goes . . . I think the significance of Lily's eyes is that Harry sees the world as his mother did - with kindness and tolerance and true courage. I think Harry looks just like his dad but that he has his mother's personality and awesome good qualities. Harry is not at all cruel (unlike his father) and has that "save the world" tendency, just like his mother. Please tell me if any of you think I am at all close! Thank Heavens for Ms. Rowling!!!!!!!!! Amy the Vivacious One! From medeacallous at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 19:42:58 2005 From: medeacallous at yahoo.ca (medeacallous) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:42:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's portrait Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133128 I don't have any particular belief or hope that DD is actually alive, but I'm curious by some posts which seem to suggest that DD's portrait appearing in his old office is evidence that he's dead. Is it true that only dead headmasters/mistresses have portraits there, or is it all *former* HMs? From rowen86 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 19:43:50 2005 From: rowen86 at gmail.com (rowen_lm) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:43:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Animagus (was Phoenix theory and Albus Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133129 "ace_of_spades_99" wrote: > Was Dumbledore an animagus and if so what was his animal form. If it > is a phoenix, could dumbledore have survived death in phoenix form? Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix, as confirmed by the Lexicon. JKR has also tied patronuses (?) and animagi together with this quote from the World Book Day chat: "class 14: If you were a animagus which animal would you be? and why? JK Rowling replies -> I gave Hermione my idea animagus, because it's my favourite animal. You'll find the answer in the Room of Requirement, Order of the Phoenix!" We know we haven't seen Hermione's animagus, but her patronus. This seems to indicate that patronuses are usually the same form as the animagi would be. Rowen From rowen86 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 19:36:54 2005 From: rowen86 at gmail.com (rowen_lm) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:36:54 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133130 "Mrs. Hermione Snape" wrote: > I sincerely doubt that it is Regulus Black. Sirius said he doubted > that his brother was ever important enough for Voldermort to kill > him > himself. This point proves nothing. The note does not say that Voldemort killed RAB, only that he expected to be long dead by the time LV found out he stole the locket. Since the locket remains in the cave, we can assume LV didn't know it was taken. (Dumbledore also assures us that LV cannot sense when a horcrux is destroyed. See Riddle's diary.) Thus, Regulus was probably on the hit list for some other reason, like for "resigning" the DEs, as Sirius says. This is why he thinks he will be dead before anyone has the chance to find out about what he did. See? He realizes the DEs are wrong and then tries to do as much damage as possible before being killed. >Also, in book 5, R. Black has been dead 15 years. Sirius > was, at most, 40. So his younger brother would have been, at > MOST, 24 > when he died. Probably younger. He wouldn't have the experience > or > importance to discover the Horcruxes, know how to handle them, or > even > to write a well-composed note like that. This is an unreasonable assumption. Regulus was obviously experienced in Dark magic (assuming that most of the things protecting the locket were dark magic) since his family was all about that stuff. I mean, even to survive in 12 Grimmauld Place, with all its dangerous objects, he must have had some knowledge about dark magic. By 24, he would have been about 6 years out of school, probably pursuing a career studying dark magic. I see it as very possible that a dark wizard that young would understand horcruxes, and certainly be literate enough to write the note. > Also, wouldn't Harry, Ron, > Hermione, or whoever found the locket have noticed the S for ? >Slytherin > on it? The description in OOP of the locket they found only said >that > it refused to open. Again, I don't think this disproves anything. In fact, avoiding describing the S is just the sort of thing sneaky JKR would do to keep fans from guessing too much about it. I mean, if she had said it had an S, it would be way too obvious to all of us. As for your guess that the RAB is Borgin, the problem is that he has no motivation to destroy the locket. Borgin is clearly a dark wizard, and deals with DEs every day. Why would he want to risk alienating his best clients by trying to kill LV? Also, RAB says he will soon be dead, and mister Borgin is very much alive. Rowen From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 19:44:29 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:44:29 -0700 Subject: "THE RING" question Message-ID: <410-220057219194429390@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133131 Chancie: Perhaps I mis-read something in HBP, but I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction of something. What happens to a Horcrux when it is destroyed? When DD arrives at Privet drive, his hand is already blackened, and dead looking, but he is wearing the ring. Wouldn't the ring have been destroyed when the Horcrux is distroyed? And was it on DD's hand when he distroyed it? Wouldn't that be kinda...well., stupid to try and destroy something your wearing at the time?? Sorry if it was answered in the book, I'm on my second read of it, so hopefully I'll find something, but until then I would appreciate any thoughts, or a nudge in the right direction. Thanks, Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:27:20 2005 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:27:20 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133132 I have read and reread the ending of HBP. I am also in the Snape is not bad camp. He dislikes Harry. No getting around that. However several things in that last sequence struck me as odd. If he was in fact evil as so many have pointed out he would have killed Harry when he had the chance. Or he would have allowed someone else to do it. Instead he put a stop to the spell that another had put on Harry Getting rid of the pain Harry was in. Also as we all know doing an Unforgivable curse is cause for going to Askaban. When Harry tries to do them Snape stops him and says "No unforgivible curses for you Potter" He is angry at Harry and says something to the effect that "You would try to use my own spells against me? Telling Harry who his is when he could have at any time killed Harry. So I am in the Snape is not evil camp. I do have another theory that may or may not have been raised. The posts are flying to quickly to keep up lol. But is there anyone else out there wondering if in fact it was not Dumbledoor but someone else who died? Maybe someone using polyjuice potion? Or maybe one of the Charms that Lily was so well known for making everyone think it was Dumbledoor? Sherry From tlscpa2003 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:36:16 2005 From: tlscpa2003 at yahoo.com (tlscpa2003) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:36:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore v Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133133 Hello, had a thought... I find it very hard to believe that DD was disarmed so easily by Draco. Any thoughts? It leads me to believe that DD had a plan. Right before Snape killed DD, DDbegged for his life (just a little). I think DD did that for LVs sake. LV will see the memory in Snape's mind. I think it was done to cement LVs trust in Snape. tls From krussell98 at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 19:38:16 2005 From: krussell98 at comcast.net (Kathi Russell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:38:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry: The UNintentional Horcrux References: Message-ID: <05d301c58c99$68b7ad40$3f8f3f44@Dude> No: HPFGUIDX 133134 > vmonte: > I loved how Dumbledore mentions that a horcrux can live inside a > living creature (Najini). I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux is > inside Harry---the scar. I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of > somehow ripped out the piece of soul that was living in Voldemort and > transfered it to Harry. And maybe it was the merging of these two > souls that caused the explosion at GH. Kathi: I'll make this short because the traffic is so heavy on the list. I agree that Harry as a horcrux is the obvious conclusion. That is EXACTLY why I'm not so sure. It just seems too obvious. JKR has been a master at leading us down crooked paths and making us come to conclusions that seem obvious - until she actually explains them. Then we slap our heads and say "How could we have been so blind!!". I know it seems the Harry must carry (ouch - unintentional rhyme) a part of V's soul. it is completely laid out for us and we are lead to it like a lamb to slaughter. BUT - there must be more to it. I can't say that I know what it is, or that I am even able to speculate what the answer might be, but I just don't think it's that simple. He may be a horcrux, but I don't think the path was intentional by V. - I think it was a complete coincidence (if such a thing as coincidence really occurs in this world :)) Going back to lurk heaven :)) Kathi PS - and just for the record, Snape is probably the most wonderfully complex, best-planned character in the entire series. I don't believe for a second that is he working against Harry. For whatever reason - and please Jo, if you are reading this, we need to know the reason - he has sacrificed himself and his "name" and "reputation" (whatever they are worth) for the greater good. I really think that "good" (the reason d'etre) is DD. DD is the only person who ever believed in Snape and trusted him, and for that alone, he has Snape's unwavering loyalty - to the point where he will actually perform an unforgivable curse on the one person he loves and respects and will actually kill that person because they asked him to do it - DD. The descriptions of Snape's countenance immediatley beofre he did the AK are not aimed at DD - they are aimed at V. and at himself (Snape). Snape is conjuring all the hatred and contempt he feels toward V. and toward himself (for being so contemptible) so that he can pour those emotions out and perform the most difficult thing DD (or anyone) has ever asked of him. Remember - the curse can not succeed without truly intense, malevolent emotion behind it. Jo made that very clear in OotP. Okay - now I really AM done :) I am gone to lurk heaven now :) See you in 2 years LOL! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:59:43 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore, his death; Snape, his trust (replies to a million posts) Message-ID: <20050719195943.92793.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133135 I've combined a lot of posts about DD and SS, sorry if it's a bit long ;) Karen Barker: Did Snape save Harry or just obey Voldemort? Is Harry, indeed not now without protection as he fears but rather still being protected, as a direct result of "his greatest protector"'s death, this time from within LV's inner circle? Juli now: I think Snape hates Harry enough to kill him, but he also knows (as I'm sure DD's told him) that Harry is theonly one who can save Harry. But DD didn't actually died to protect Harry, he died to protect Draco, so probably Draco's the one protected, but I don't think so. esmith222002: Albus Dumbledore planned his own death. He understands that Voldemort would never even consider that someone as powerful as Dumbledore would sacrifice their life as part of a master plan. But what is the master plan? Juli: The master plan is to kill Voldemort, as simple as that. I genuinely believe that Snape trusts and loves Dumbledore more than anyone else. I also believe that he does not think Harry is capable of destroying Voldemort. He is angry that Dumbledore is sacrificing himself unnecessarily! I partly agree with you when you say Snape loves DD, but I disagree with you when Harry's not capable of killing LV, Harry is more than able and willing to do so. saraquel_omphale Do I believe that DD pleaded for his life? NO!! Totally out of character. So that leaves 2 options: 1 He was pleading for Snape not to betray his trust and stay on the good side or 2 He was pleading for Snape to do what he had said he would do at this point in the master plan, which was to AK DD Juli: I have to go with option #2, but still, he's kept Snape on the good side. juli17: Why am I 98.6% certain, you ask? The points: 1. DD belabored the point OVER and OVER again in HBP that he trusted Severus Snape. I can't see DD going out having made such a monumental error in judgment. I just can't. Juli: agree 110% 2. If DD thinks or knows that sacrificing his life is necessary to ensure Harry's success in destroying Voldemort, then DD will do it. Juli: yes, it's all about the greater good. 4. DD would *never* plead for his life. Ever. He doesn't fear death. I feel VERY strongly about this one. His "Severus...please..." plea was an act, or intended to prod Snape to carry out his promise--i.e., kill DD. Juli: He does not fear death, fot it is but the next journey (or something like that PS) 8. Regarding Snape in particular, it's hard to believe that that's it--that's all there is to Snape. He hid at Hogwarts pretending to be loyal to DD until Voldemort regained his power, the end. Juli: No way, Snape has tons of layers, we've only seen a few. Dysis: So telepathically, DD asked Snape to kill him. And with anger etched on his face that he had to kill the one man who truly trusted him and actually loved him (remember, Snape lacked love when he was younger) and being bound by the Vow, he did as DD asked. Juli: I like your idea, Snape hates himself for killing DD, but he doesn't stop taking his orders because he's dead, no he'll stay loyal all the way, loyal until LV dies. bbkkyy55 DD's DEATH - Yes he's really dead - I'm so sorry - but it always was going to be Harry's battle and he's on his own now and ready for the task, mentally at least. I wish his skills were a little better. He's always gotten through on luck. DD's sacrifice in petrifying Harry and thereby not having time to protect himself was wonderful. Juli: So being alone gives him a better chance to vanquish LV? SNAPE's treachery - well, I always thought he was rotten. He was just too mean and enjoyed it all so much. But still it shocked me very much. I think he will be almost a more formidable foe than LV. Snape does have feelings of compassion. He did make the unbreakable vow to help Malfoy. To me Snape is really really scary Juli: I disagree, he's scary, I'll give you that, but I don'y believe he is rotten. templar1112002 And I say all this after having believed since PS/SS that Snape was and will always be an evil guy... In all honesty, if what I've just reasoned comes close to HP7 canon, it'd give Snape's character many, many layers of depth. Juli: what did he do on PS to convice you he was evil, as I remember all he did was save Harry's life. Claire: Snape's mastery of Occlumency is serving him and the Order well, I believe and hope Juli: Ditto (sorry for the one liner) Alla: I loved Dumbledore`s willingness to share everything with Harry, I loved him not trying to protect Harry anymore and I cried for him.As far as I am concerned, Puppetmaster!Dumbledore is put to rest also. Juli: I'm not so sure about Puppetmaster!DD put to rest, I think he did all he did cause he knew it was for the better good, it was all part of his plans. I think Snape is "deeply horrible person' even if Dumbledore begged him to kill. After all, Avada IS one of the unforgivables and I think that unforgivables in Potterverse are called so for a reason. That is why I am also not so sure that Dumbledore would ask anyone to kill for any reason. Juli: That's what I've been thinking all along, why ask him to AK him? I bet there are other killing curses other than the AK. Kimberly I was so sure that Draco was going to be a turncoat and come over to the other side but evidence to the contrary was shown quite early. Narcissa seems quite desperate in her attempt to save Draco which reminded me of the love of Lily for Harry and her desperate attempt to save him. Juli: So you still have faith in Draco? so do I. he's shown love (and a lot actually) for his mother and his father, therefore he must not be evil, mean yes, but evil, not. templar1112002: My theory also includes a possible Unbreakable Vow performed between Snape and Dumbledore, in which DD makes Snape vow to help Harry in his fight against Voldie Juli: I like it, Snape has to help Harry, otherwise he dies. I wonder which would he take, Helping James' son or ending his own life... hmmm Davenclaw: Snape has been too sincerely horrible to Harry all along for him to have any desire to help Harry destroy Voldemort. I actually think Snape has been playing both sides noncommitally, waiting until the opportunity to jump to the "winning" side. Juli: So he's loyal to both LV and DD? How could he do that? they both want exactly the opposite, unless he's clonned himself. Kneazle: Is it just me, or was it completely obvious that Dumbledore planned his death for at least a year? Juli: maybe not for a year, but at least a few months (since they heard about the 7 horcruxes) There were so many ways he could have saved himself (where was Fawkes? Why freeze Harry when the only threat was a conflicted Draco?) Juli: You've asked the million dollar question. Who knows! Who could put up that barrier to the tower in Hogwarts except the headmaster? He didn't want anyone interfering. Juli: There wasn't a barrier to the tower, the barrier was at Hogwarts boundaries. I also think DD would not have sold his life cheaply. He sacrificed himself, I wonder what sort of ancient magic he created? Juli: Are you thinking a protection like Lily's? But to whom? to Draco or to Harry? Gail: It is interesting to note that DD appeared after death in a portrait in his office, sleeping during H's visit to P.McG, However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in a talking portrait. Perhaps he is not dead, having passed the curtain while still alive? Juli: Sirius was NOT a headmaster, so why would he appear at the headmaster's office? houyhnhnm: It was not that I didn't know DD was going to die. Aside from the leaks, I knew that the old wise mentor always has to die so that the young hero can go on alone to fulfill his destiny Juli: SO DD is like Obi Wan Kenobi? At the end, the heroe is all alone. Kind of sad, don't you think? OK, enough replies for one day, but fingers are aching. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From as_ziggy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:57:48 2005 From: as_ziggy at yahoo.com (as_ziggy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:57:48 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kjoseph502000" wrote: > Could Bella be the horcrux? If LV trusted her with his "most > precious...." > > That would also explain why he carefully took her along with him when > he disappeared from the MOM. > > I'd rather she had to be killed than Harry. > I can't really argue since we have no real facts to go on but I find it really hard to believe how a person can be a Horcrux. If you wanted to leave a bit of your soul with someone, all you have to do is love them. You wouldn't need all this complex magic. AS P.S. I think Voldemort is incapable of loving as Dumbledore says he always underestimated that power. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 20:09:16 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (Emily) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:09:16 -0000 Subject: Harry: The UNintentional Horcrux In-Reply-To: <05d301c58c99$68b7ad40$3f8f3f44@Dude> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathi Russell" wrote: > > > vmonte: I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of > > somehow ripped out the piece of soul that was living in Voldemort > and > > transfered it to Harry. And maybe it was the merging of these two > > souls that caused the explosion at GH. > > Kathi: snip I know it seems the Harry must carry (ouch - unintentional rhyme) a part of V's soul. it is completely laid out for us and we are lead to it like a lamb to slaughter. BUT - there must be more to it. I can't say that I know what it is, or that I am even able to speculate what the answer might be, but I just don't think it's that simple. He may be a horcrux, but I don't think the path was intentional by V. - I think it was a complete coincidence (if such a thing as coincidence really occurs in this world :)) > Going back to lurk heaven :)) > Kathi Emily: Ringing in to disagree slightly: I think LV absolutely intended to make Harry a horcrux. I think that is why Lily's death wasn't necessary; he planned to use James's death to make Horcrux!Harry. Maybe he thought it would be fun for her to have to watch him raise her son to be his evil underling. Obviously, something went wrong for Voldie. Also, to the point of Horcrux!Harry being an obvious conclusion, I think that's ok. There have been other things that have been obvious to us (ie, the existence of the prophecy) but it is still suspenseful to watch the character's figure things out. And it might not go quite the way we theorize, but that doesn't mean the general idea is wrong. Emily, who hopes Horcrux!Harry might help in her Harry-survives-Dementor's- kiss-and-vanquishes-Voldemort-in-one-fell-swoop theory From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:17:10 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:17:10 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133138 Just had to join in on the fun. Harry - I was incredibly surprised (in a good way) how much more mature and grownup he acted in this book. Other than the quick mention of him not eating back at the Dursleys, he seems to have dealt with Sirius' death quite well. I was also impressed about how he is dealing with the prophecy, taking on responsibility for defeating LV and accepting this as his destiny instead of running away or resenting it; making it his choice (he really is DD's man). For 16 he's become quite mature and I hope this is an indication that he's really starting to become an adult. As for his relationship with Ginny, all I have to say is, "Yippee!" I loved so much the passages where he tries to justify his feelings for her as older brother-ish and when he wanted to beat the crap out of Dean for kissing her in the halls. I was a mite disappointed that he decided to break up with her in the end, but he's right: this is something that he has to do by himself, it is his destiny and no one else's, and while Ginny would have every right to be ticked that he's making decisions for her, I was also impressed by her own maturity in that situation, accepting his choice and holding out hope for the future (please, let there be one!). And that bit about Harry's Hungarian Horntail tattoo? Priceless. Ron/Hermione - Vindication! I loved their bickering (as I always did) and loved the complexities that were worked into their relationship. I was also qutie pleased that they both decided to help Harry next year, whether he returns to Hogwarts or not. My mom says that's just setting them up to die, but I disagree: these two, I'm sure, will make it through unscathed. And to get the rest of the shipping out of the way: Fleur/Bill - Oh, gag me. Remus/Tonks - Oh, so cute. It's about time he had a friend who wasn't evil or dead. Do we have a consensus on her age? I always thought she was in her early twenties, and if Remus is now 37-38, that's not too old. Dumbledore - Well, let's just say we saw this one coming from Day 1. I am of the opinion that he will be back in some form, as Harry still has a good bit of quest to be getting on with and he'll need the help. What I really want to know is where Fawkes got to and how DD's portrait got into the Head's office so quickly. But on a more serious note, those last four chapters were some of the most gut- wrenching of the series (up there with Cedric's murder, LV's rebirth, the Shreiking Shack, and the DoM battle), but how touched/moved was I when DD finally revealed the depth of his love for Harry? When Harry fixed DD's glasses? Oh, brother, bring on the tears. Snape - Taking an Unbreakable Vow? Is he brain dead? Or was this all part of the plan? DD didn't fear death, we know that, so maybe there is some higher reasoning behind this (something I'm sure we'll all speculate to death over the next thousand days!). But Snape, the Half-Blood Prince? Didn't see that one coming. He must have been a truly brilliant student to have created that book while still at school. And I was a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see him teach DADA more, something that Harry would clearly have been able to show him up at. R.A.B. - Regulus Black. Enough said. The Dursleys - I really hope we get some closure with them in the next book. I still want to know what Dudley saw when he got demented. And I am fully curious about the nature of Lily and Petunia's relationship. Horcruxes - Nagini, Slytherin Locket, Hufflepuff Cup, Ravenclaw item, Ring, Diary, LV himself. I can't wait to find out what of Ravenclaw's there might still be left (I think DD was probably right about the sword being all that there was left of Godric). The locket, I think we are mostly in agreement, is somewhere in Grimmauld Place (good thing Harry inherited it). I don't buy the theory that Harry is an unintentional horcrux; I think that LV had already gotten seven of them when he went after the Potters, which is why he felt confident enough to go up against them that night. Besides, with all DD confided in him, if he had even thought this was a possibility he probably would have told Harry. Peverelle Family? - Also related to the Gaunts, part of LV's ancestry. Who are they? Who else draws a bloodline from them? Their ring has been destroyed, but is there anything else left of them? Family homes - Harry wants to go to Godric's Hollow, see his parents' house and their graves, about darn time, if you ask me. I think he'll also be paying visits to the Riddle House and the Gaunt house during the course of his search for the remaining four horcruxes. And speaking of Gaunts and Riddles... Young Tom Riddle - Those were some of the most amazing scenes JKR has written, IMVHO. The one at the orphanage gave me the shudders (with the strangled rabbit and all...ooooh...creepy), and to think about LV crossing Hogwarts' threshold with DD's permission, terrifying. LV doesn't seem like such a cardboard bad guy anymore, and the insights into his character are telling (I especially liked the line where DD asks if Harry is feeling sorry for LV, something that Harry vehemently denies, but which I think might be true anyway) and I can see his progression quite clearly now. And I can also imagine his shock when, after building up in his imagination a father who was a powerful and strong wizard, discovered that it was his weak mother, the one who abandoned him to life at the orphanage, who gave him his powers. And then to discover that his father was alive and well but had never sought him out, and that his mother's family was old and pure-blooded and stretched back to Slytherin himself? Now the ideology he espouses is a little clearer. DD's description of LV, as someone who prefers to be alone, superior and in charge, strikes right at the difference between him and Harry: though Harry needs his alone time (and don't we all), and though he will have to complete this task by himself (as he has before) it takes the help of his friends to get him through everything, something LV will never understand. Lupin's backstory - I was quite pleased to get some insight into this character, who is one of my faves. His history with Fenrir Greyback and his secret mission make me wonder how this book will sit with the ESE!Lupin postulators. Neville - Where were you, brave Longbottom boy? Hardly mentioned until we find out that he was one of the two ex-DA members to come to Hogwarts' aid during the last battle. Neville is finally coming out of his father and his grandmother's shadows, and I would kill to read the letter McGonagall sent to Augusta about him. Funniest bits - Arthur and Molly's safety questions for entry into the Burrow. Fred and George's joke shop. Harry and Luna at the Slug Party (well, there's our vampire). "Won-won!" The canaries. Dobby still unable to keep from punishing himself. Harry remembering Dumbledore as he really was ("Nitwit, blubber, oddiment, tweak!"). All classics. Meri - how soon till the next one? From cijimcb at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:53:11 2005 From: cijimcb at yahoo.com (Ciji) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:53:11 -0000 Subject: Snape & the Order; Snape & Lily; predictions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133139 Devon wrote: > Quoted from Rosmerta_Pince > > "> QUESTIONS: > > - Would Voldemort try to make another Horcrux since he knows > > the diary was destroyed? Harry could be facing five, not > > four." > > Do you think Voldemort knows about the diary? After all, it > contained a portion of his soul, but not the portion that is > in his body. I don't know if there are connections between the > soul pieces in each Horcrux, but even if there are, I don't > think Voldemort would inherently know that two of them have > been destroyed. He's not so good with the gut feelings...or > any feelings in general, really. I think Voldemort's goal of the Horcruxes was not for his Death Eaters to find them and raise him from the dead per se, but for them to be simple objects (a book, a cup, a locket) that could be innocently obtained by some poor wizard or witch, then his soul could rise up and do some serious damage before he was discovered (as with Ginny in CoS). I think he doesn't know when a horcrux is destroyed, because the diary had his '16 year od self" in it. How would that soul communicate with the present one, the adult Voldemort? Also, why would RAB (Regulus Black I'm hoping) leave a note to Voldemort explaining he destroyed the locket if Voldemort had some type of 'connection' to the items? I'm also guessing that each horcrux has a different age or era of Voldemort's life embedded in it, for example, the diary (16 years), the cup (21 years) the locket (25 years) and so on. And I wouldn't be suprised if there were one horcrux with his childhood self in it, so kid Voldemort could start all over again. Isn't that a scary thought? "Ciji" From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:19:25 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:19:25 -0000 Subject: Major Clue: Parallization between Harry and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133140 I don't think anyone bring this one up yet, but one more clue to prove the 'DD order Snape to kill him' camp deliberate choice of similar sets of vocabularies: US Hardcover, p. 571: Dumbledore panted and then spoke in a voice Harry did not recognize, for he had never heard Dumbledore **frightened** like this. "**Hating** himself, **repulsed** by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside." p. 595: "Severus..." The sound **frightened** Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was **revulsion** and **hatred** etched in the harsh lines of his face." The parallization is just too obvious here. DD forcing Harry to go through killing DD himself with the potion, has the same sets of words used in SS killing DD scene...hinting the same situation possibly? And a lot of people seems to completely forget the argument Hagrid overheard of between DD and Snape. Snape doesn't want to do it ('it' being Snape killing DD), but DD insist him follow through. Why? Why the killing? Because DD is dying, from sacrificing himself. And just like Harry, Snape is more valuable than DD for some unknown significant reason. DD and his mysterious injured blackened hand is the hint: before the book began, DD was either fatally poison or cursed by the ring, and is slowly dying. Snape and DD already made the deal of having Snape AK him for the future greater good purpose (reason not explicit explained yet, maybe DD is making himself a hocrux hence ought to be destoryed), that clearly this deal is made BEFORE the Unbreakable Vow (in 'Spinner's End' Snape already mention about knowing DD's hand injury). Now it'd be very interesting and helpful if we were to organize the scarily similarities between LV and Snape, how these two mirror each other. What is the purpose of this deliberate parallelization for the theme and future plot? We used to only have the parallelization between LV and HP, why throw in Snape all the sudden? Why do we have three half blood key-players for the finale? D. From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 20:20:48 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:20:48 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133141 I know that everyone is composing serious posts right now, and so far I haven't seen anyone comment on the "funniest line" yet which was a popular topic after OoP. Of all the great lines in the book ("I am not worried, Harry, I am with you.." - sniffle!!), I think the funniest has to be the Weasleys' poster: WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT YOU-KNOW-WHO WHEN YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT U-NO-POO ? Where does she get this stuff??? We were saying it all day at work today (and I'm a veterinarian so it's even funnier!) Any other favorite lines? ~~Allie From lindydivaus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 18:55:26 2005 From: lindydivaus at yahoo.com (Eileen Forster Keck) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP's Potions Book Copyright Date / The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <1121793354.6476.23491.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050719185526.96214.qmail@web50805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133142 adesa wrote: >> "Or did JKR make a mistake? Snape claims, at the end, to be the Prince, and yet..." << No, I don't think so-- >> "...he[Harry finally found, at the front of the book, the date that it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, not his father's friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago...." (HBP, US, Ch. 16, p. 337) << No--but what about ***Eileen Prince***, Snape's mother? After all, she was a former Hogwarts student. And from the glimpses of Snape's childhood, his family wasn't exactly rolling in Galleons. It would make perfect sense for his mum to give him her used text books (esp. if his father resented her powers, and from the way she was apparently abused, that seems quite possible). >> "Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? Certainly possible, given he was at the school on a need-based scholarship." << Exactly, see my comments above (RE Snape's mum). >> "Or is this a mistake on JKR's part? You know her and "maths,"..." << No, I think it was quite a calculated clue (or clew!) on her part. -Eileen From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:26:57 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719202658.91162.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133143 Two lines of Dumbledore's that I loved: "I do love knitting patterns." and "Jokes? No, no, these are manners." Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ryokas at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 20:26:57 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:26:57 -0000 Subject: And now for something completely different. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133144 Well, the list is open, the discussion's aflame, there might be something still afloat on TBAY, and my own theories have already been posted by others, repeatedly. But there's the one vitally important topic that hasn't been brought up yet: Crabbe and Goyle, their hands-on course in advanced gender studies a monument to the importance of learning to think for yourself. One can hear the waves of slightly insane fan art gathering already. So - what in your opinion would suit the two while incognito? I'm thinking perhaps long pig tails with something tasteful in pink (Pansy Parkinson could doubtlessly do the hair), but would love to hear other approaches. Kizor From hermystheories at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 19:57:59 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:57:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133145 "Rowen" wrote: > As for your guess that the RAB is Borgin, the problem is that he has > no motivation to destroy the locket. Borgin is clearly a dark > wizard, and deals with DEs every day. I don't know of a motivation, but the contrast between how Borgin acts in front of Death Eaters and behind their backs is quite striking. Our experiences with Borgin in both CoS and HBP show this. > Why would he want to risk > alienating his best clients by trying to kill LV? If done in complete secrecy, it wouldn't alienate his clients. Also, this is merely speculation, but if he believes Voldemort is worth destroying, he would probably value this goal more than business success. >Also, RAB says he > will soon be dead, and mister Borgin is very much alive. True, but there is no way of knowing how long ago the locket had been switched. And he might have assumed Voldemort would have noticed if a piece of his soul had been destroyed, and predicted that he would die soon. Regardless of how he reached the conclusion that he would die soon, he might have been wrong. Mrs. HS From celizwh at intergate.com Tue Jul 19 19:00:19 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:00:19 -0000 Subject: Locket and Regulus Black In-Reply-To: <19a.381857b2.300e7f05@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133146 CareALotsClouds at a... wrote: > In OotP, chapter of 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' > a 'locket' is mentioned. A lot of coincidences surrounding > Regulus and the Horcrux I think.. houyhnhnm: I too, thought RAB was Regulus Black. I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but "regulus" also mean "prince". Probably just JKR having fun. (It was also another word for basilisk.) From Hulkpac2 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 20:02:04 2005 From: Hulkpac2 at aol.com (dvs_x7) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:02:04 -0000 Subject: Snape Still on the Good Side, Dumbledore not dead Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133147 In OoP, I believe Bellatrix says that the Avada Kedavra Curse doesn't work unless you really mean it so at the end of HBP I don't believe that Snape killed Dumbledore, because he obviously didn't want to, he just put him in a death-like sleeping state with a less than full powered spell, afterall it says that Dumbledore's eyes were closed (p. 608), and when you die your eyes are usually open. I think and hope that we will all find out in the seventh book that this is a planned move by Snape and Dumbledore. Snape looks the faithful servant in Voldemort's eyes and Voldemort believes his greatest foe dead (there were plenty of witnesses to confirm this to Voldemort and I'm sure he will hear of Dumbledore's funeral). What better cliffhanger can you imagine heading into the final chapter of the Harry Potter saga? "dvs_x7" From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Jul 19 20:32:07 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:32:07 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat a horcrux? (was:Thoughts on HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > I can't wait to find out what of Ravenclaw's there might still be left (I think DD was probably right about the sword being all that there was left of Godric). Hickengruendler: My very first thought was, that Dumbledore was wrong, because the Sorting Hat is Godric Gryffindor's hat, isn't it? I was really interested, when JKR only mentioned the sword and ignored the Hat. This made my thoughts going to the Sorting Hat at once. Of course the problem with this theory is, that the Hat is probably as safe as the sword and really hard for Voldemort to get in his fingers. But I still think it's possible for him to do somehow. That said, no matter if it's the Sorting Hat or not, I tend to think the last item is something from Gryffindor. JKR left it open, and it was laid to much emphasize of it being probably from Ravenclaw, IMO. From xirene101 at cs.com Tue Jul 19 20:07:18 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:07:18 -0400 Subject: Slughorn: a different look at Slytherin Message-ID: <015E190D.6B55C273.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133149 One thing I noticed in HBP, and rather enjoyed, was the fact that Horace Slughorn represents a departure from the usual "evil" Slytherin students and alumni we have seen. He's not potrayed as evil, just ambitious. He is more than ready and willing to use his contacts for his own personal benefit. But he has been on the run for a year to avoid the DE's, which implies he does not want to choose their "side" in the war. This "new" look at Slytherin house is a welcome change. Thanks, Jo! ~Sue From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 20:34:04 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:34:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133150 S P O I L E R S S P O I L E R S S P O I L E R S --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > It was not that I didn't know DD was going to die. Aside from the > leaks, I knew that the old wise mentor always has to die so that the > young hero can go on alone to fulfill his destiny. Yes, his death had to happen between end of book 6 and beginning of book 7... > It was the manner of his death--by treachery--a weak, old man > pleading for his life with the murderous snake he had nursed at his > bosom for 16 years that I couldn't stand. It seemed to me to render > the character of Dumbledore completely false. I have never been a fan of Snape, and in fact have always been certain that he will turn over to the dark side after DD (to whom he seemed clearly devoted) inevitably dies. But oddly this book (which I have not yet finished, though I scanned the entire book so I know the plot) convinced me that Snape was not a traitor but a real DD ally who was put in an impossible situation at the end and chose the least evil course of action. Without referring to specific quotes, note that in the second chapter two interesting things happen: 1. In typical Snape doublespeak, we learn that Snape likely was successful in using occlumency to prevent LV from reading his real thoughts (he sardonically asks the sisters if they really believe he could outsmart LV, the greatest leglimens around). 2. Snape makes an irrevocable oath to help Draco and to do his deed for him if he fails. Later we learn from Ron (during the Christmas chapter at the Weasleys) that an irrevocable oath is impossible to break and if it is broken, the oath breaker dies. Throughout the book Snape repeatedly tries to weasel out of Malfoy what that deed that he swore to accomplish for him is. He never finds out. So he has no clue what is coming when he is suddenly faced with a choice - to do Draco's deed for him or to die. In the climax scene, DD is cornered with 4-5 Death Eaters and no wand. For some reason, it is Draco and no one else that is supposed to kill him (which implies that the killer identity makes a difference in some future twist), but Draco is unable to. At this point Snape simply has no choice. If he does not kill DD, he will die anyway (due to breaking the oath) and DD is doomed in any case. Either Draco or one of the others will kill him (or worse, immobilize him and take him to LV). Remember, Snape is DD's spy within the Death Eaters - the only one who can get inside information. There is no advantage if he nobley kills himself (either through breaking his oath or by trying to take on 4-5 DE's all alone - as DD has no wand and so can't help). Like it or not, he had to do it. Of course, he damned himself by his action, so I expect some finale type death of him in the end, but I now believe that he'll stay on the good side (as much as he can do that) till the end. Moreover, we see that Wormtail - who owes his life to Harry - and Snape - who owes his life to Harry's father - are now together. This will play an important role in the final showdown. Just MO. Salit From allthingshp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:17:49 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:17:49 -0000 Subject: Where are the Horcruxes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133151 Since we have so so so long to wait for the next and final installment of the HP series I though we might spend our time hypothesizing where the horcruxes might be (or who might be holding on to them...) We know that Lucius had the diary and that the locket should have been in the cave where Tom Riddle visited as a youth (do we know where DD got the ring from? I can't remember now...) but where could the cup, Nagini, the real locket and the something else (the scar! you all yell) be? And how might these locations match up with characters we still need answers for? For example might wormtail unbeknownst to himself be carrying the cup in that weird hideaway at Spinners End? What about the Gaunt's old house? #12? I have no answers but I thought I'd see what you all had to say! -allthingshp From lebiles at charter.net Tue Jul 19 20:36:44 2005 From: lebiles at charter.net (leb2323) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:36:44 -0000 Subject: Harry: The UNintentional Horcrux In-Reply-To: <05d301c58c99$68b7ad40$3f8f3f44@Dude> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133152 To paraphrase many other posts: Harry is the final horcrux whether it was done intentionally or not. (How's that for some efficient snipping!) leb's theory added on: To me this explains DD's gleam and "in essence divided" quote and I believe Harry is the final horcrux. However . . . I think that when LV possessed Harry during the MoM battle and then subsequently fled because of all that pesky love and hope swirling around inside Harry that LV accidentally and unknowingly took back that part of his soul. This would be the reason why Harry has not had any scar pain or twinges or flashes of LV's feelings, etc. and not because LV was continuously performing occlumency against it. Hopefully Harry will realize this before he decides that he has to kill himself in order to kill LV. From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:26:41 2005 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:26:41 -0000 Subject: Snape - Voldemort or Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133153 Who do I trust? I began asking this question in chap. 2 of HBP, and will no doubt continue to ponder it until the end of book 7. In chap. 2 of HBP, the following dialogue takes place between Narcissa and Bellatrix: "Cissy, you must not do this, you can't trust him--" "The Dark Lord trusts him, doesn't he?" "The Dark Lord is...I believe...mistaken," Bella panted,... and later, in response to Snape, Bellatrix replies "I know he believes you, but..." This evidence (along with Snapes' responses to Bellatrix' questions in chap. 2, which are all we have to go on) suggests that Lord Voldemort does indeed trust Snape and believes he is loyal to him. Dumbledore has repeatedly, thoughout canon, said that he trusts Snape and believes he is loyal to him. There is much evidence that could support either theory - Snape, the faithful Death Eater or Snape, loyal member of the Order of the Phoenix - but of course JKR has left us no clear evidence as to which is true - although I do admit that HBP, at least on the surface, supports the former - However, JKR does, I believe, leave a clue - LV and DD themselves. Who do I, the reader, trust? I personally trust Dumbledore because of his judgement of character, his faith in humanity, his love for his friends, his compassion for his enemies. Becuase of these characteristics, I believe DD is right about Snape. It is clear that LV and his DE see these characteristics as weaknesses. If JKR intends for her readers to see these characteristics as strengths, I can't see how Dumbledore could be wrong about Snape. Jen From kjones at telus.net Tue Jul 19 20:38:54 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:38:54 -0700 Subject: HBP Theories Message-ID: <42DD64DE.4060504@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133154 Kathy writes: Rhianynthe cat: > Has anyone else wondered if the reason DD trusts Snape so unshakably is > because Severus has taken an Unbreakable Vow to him? Rhianynthecat KJ I agree that Snape has taken a Wizard's Oath to Dumbledore as I feel that Snape's need for Dumbledore's approval, and the need to destroy Voldemort is more powerful than Snape's fear of death. Considering Snape's choices in all of this, I think he took the Unbreakable Vow for Narcissa knowing full well he would die for it. I think that is what caused the jerk in his hand. He never had any intention of killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore forced him into it. I think he wants to be dead, now more than ever. KJ Devon: > Do you think Voldemort knows about the diary? After all, it contained > a portion of his soul, but not the portion that is in his body. I > don't know if there are connections between the soul pieces in each > Horcrux, but even if there are, I don't think Voldemort would > inherently know that two of them have been destroyed. He's not so > good with the gut feelings...or any feelings in general, really. Devon KJ On page 474 of HBP, Dumbledore explains to Harry that Voldemort had no knowledge of the destruction of the diary until he forced the truth out of Malfoy. He apparently was furious. This would also indicate that Snape is bringing everything back to Dumbledore from the DE meetings. It is also interesting to note that Lucius did not know what it really was. KJ Irene: > That's the question that plagues me. One of the > biggest obstacles on the way to fully accept the Grand > Dumbledore Plan theory. What can Snape offer from his > position of Voldie's golden boy in book 7? Irene KJ If we accept that Snape is "Dumbledore's man all the way" as well, then he is in the perfect position. Voldemort must have been ready to kiss him on his return. Snape is now in the perfect position to poison Nagini should that become necessary. As Bella has perhaps been given one of Voldemort's little keepsakes, Snape may be granted one to look after. Snape is also in the perfect position to gradually poison Voldemort's latest body. I am also convinced that Dumbledore would not have thrown Snape so completely to the wolves. I am sure that information has been sent or will be sent to Aberforth and Harry to enable Snape to continue spying. Snape may be the only wizard powerful enough to remove the horcrux from Harry. Dumbledore did perform that little test on Harry perhaps to determine if the two souls were totally separate. If worst comes to worst, Snape is also the only one mean enough and capable of killing Harry, should that become necessary. If Dumbledore has no difficulty giving up his own life, I don't think he would hesitate for a minute giving up Snape's soul. In fact, if the vow or oath that Snape gave Dumbledore had to do with protecting Harry, this would also mean Snape's death. I believe that death is now Snape's only option. He must choose his time as did Dumbledore. KJ If any of you have lasted through this, what really bothers me is Snape's family. His mother was a witch and his father a muggle. How do we reconcile this with Snape's pride in his family. If the memory we saw in OotP was Snape's father and mother, it would make no sense. He sees magic as all powerful. He is proud of being a Prince. If his mother was totally cowering as a result of a muggle's threats, how could he be proud of that. I wonder if Snape's father also left his mother, and if the scene we saw was Snape's grandfather, still punishing his mother for marrying a muggle. Snape was raised magically, knew more Dark Arts than anyone, was extremely magically advanced. This would indicate more power over Snape by the Prince side of the family than by the Snape side to me. They apparently did not treat him well because he was a half-blood. He may have been forced to take the Mark by his grandfather rather than any true inclination of his own. The similarities between Harry, Voldemort and Snape have been increasing throughout the books. The thing that really bugs me, which some of you might have bumped into by now, and have not responded to is this: the whole of the comments made by Dumbledore as he was drinking the potion. To me, it sounded like Snape's worst memories, including one remark that was almost word for word one that Harry heard his mother screaming the night of the GH attack. Could Dumbledore have been a repository for Snape's really worst memories, which were replayed by the potion. It just doesn't sound like anything that Dumbledore would have been sorry for or done, but it does sound like all of the really bad moments in Snape's earlier years. Apparently pensives are not all that secure in Hogwarts. This would also explain Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape. KJ From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 20:33:23 2005 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:33:23 -0000 Subject: Major Clue: Parallization between Harry and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133155 "doliesl" wrote: > I don't think anyone bring this one up yet, but one more clue to prove the 'DD order Snape > to kill him' camp deliberate choice of similar sets of vocabularies: I also saw the same parallels. To go a bit further, the scenes also "look" somewhat similar. We only know that Harry was acting on Dumbledore's orders because we follow Harry's POV in the books. But from the outside (ie, the way we saw Snape killing DD, w/out the background of knowing Harry swore to do DD's orders no matter what), it would look as if Harry was trying to off Dumbledore during the scene where he is giving him the potion. Harry's viewpoint of the Dumbledore/Snape scene is unreliable; or perhaps more accurately, it cannot give us the full picture of what has happened. I also think Snape must have done something else to make Dumbledore trust him for so many years. The fact that Snape told Dumbledore that he (Snape) overheard the prophecy and told Voldemort doesn't seem like it would be enough for Dumbledore to trust him so implicitly. I think there must be more to know here regarding why Dumbledore trusts Snape. We are to believe that Dumbledore has very good judgment and is whip-smart -- what exactly would Snape have done to convince Dumbledore he -- a Death Eater -- was trustworthy? Julie, new poster From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Tue Jul 19 20:41:54 2005 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:41:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DD/Hagrid trusts Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133156 In a message dated 7/19/2005 11:39:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, drjuliehoward at yahoo.com writes: The Unbreakable Vow requires a third party, and so far no one has hinted that they understand why DD trusts Snape so much. Hmmm, Hagrid I wonder? He's always seemed more trusting of Snape than even the others. I mean, the others at least admit that Snape is an unlikable git even if they do trust him. Hagrid will hardly hear a bad word against him. And did anyone else notice that Hagrid was the only one to handle Dumbledore's body? And that we never actually see the body at the funeral? **Rhianyn settles on the comfortable armchair by the fire curls her fluffy tail about her just so.** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:42:27 2005 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:42:27 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > > I do have another theory that may or may not have been raised. The > posts are flying to quickly to keep up lol. But is there anyone else > out there wondering if in fact it was not Dumbledoor but someone else > who died? Maybe someone using polyjuice potion? Or maybe one of the > Charms that Lily was so well known for making everyone think it was > Dumbledoor? > Sherry I think there is no doubt it is Dumbledore who has been killed, as his portrait now hangs in the headmaster's study. Adam From amanda_k429 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 19:37:18 2005 From: amanda_k429 at yahoo.com (amanda_k429) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:37:18 -0000 Subject: ESE!Flitwick - - We can't believe Snape is bad! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133158 Hogwarstmom > JKR has said in interview that she always thought of Flitwick as just > a very small wizard. She was surprised he looked so goblin-like in > the movie. I don't think Flitwick as a goblin is canon. Flitwick definitely is part goblin as stated in JKR's FAQ's on her web site (even if it is by a great great grandfather, or something) but I definitely agree that he is not goblin enough to be on voldemort's side. It's just too far off. ~Amanda~ From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Tue Jul 19 20:44:05 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:44:05 -0000 Subject: Snape - Voldemort or Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenniferstmatt" wrote: > Who do I trust? I began asking this question in chap. 2 of HBP, and > will no doubt continue to ponder it until the end of book 7. ...... > Who do I, the reader, trust? I personally trust Dumbledore Me too. I continue to believe in Snape because I believe in DD From redmorning at tds.net Tue Jul 19 20:45:46 2005 From: redmorning at tds.net (redmorning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:45:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: <20050719202658.91162.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050719202658.91162.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42DD667A.1030309@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133160 "You thought I would not weesh to marry him? Or per'aps, you hoped?" said Fleur, her nostrils flaring. "What do I care how he looks? I am good-looking enough for both of us, I theenk!..." page 623 US Jemima From carodave92 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:48:09 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:48:09 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133161 > Mrs. Hermione Snape: > wouldn't Harry, Ron, > Hermione, or whoever found the locket have noticed the S for Slytherin > on it? The description in OOP of the locket they found only said that > it refused to open. If it is indeed *THE* locket, I'm sure the Blacks > acquired it after R.A.B. (Borgin?) was through with it. > Carodave: If the locket that the trio found in 12GP was the same one (and I believe that it is), they would not have wondered about the S for Slytherin, since the Black family are mainly from Slytherin House (Phineas Nigellus, a Black relation, was even painted in Slytherin robes for his portrait as headmaster). From andmcgrn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 20:51:20 2005 From: andmcgrn at yahoo.co.uk (McGovern) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:51:20 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133162 How can Harry be a Horcrux? In order to completely destroy Voldemort he would have to kill Voldemort - but then he himself would be keeping Voldemort alive? (or stopping him from dieing) I think that once Voldemort were in the lifeless state he was in prior to his "resurection" in Goblet of Fire destroying any remaining Horcrux's would not finsh him off - otherwise surely he would feel a Horcrux being destroyed. Also the seven Horcrux's are: Voldie himself Nagini Ring (was this Ravenclaw) Hufflepuff Cup Slytherin Locket Diary and something from Gryffindor? Or do some think that Harry is the Gryffindor relic (or descendant?) "McGovern" From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 20:55:51 2005 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:55:51 -0000 Subject: If Snape is good, how will he now help the Order? (more) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133163 Assuming that Snape indeed was acting on DD's order to AK him, and that he is still on the side of the Order, how will he help the Order? It seemed from the end of HBP that no one from the Order is likely to trust Snape now that DD is dead at Snape's hand. I'm wondering how he (Snape) might work his double-agent role now, because it seems like his primary assistance to the Order was sending back information about the DEs. Is there another member of the Order (again assuming Snape is on the Order's side) who might know as much about Snape as DD and is still willing to trust him? Could it be the member of the Order we are to be introduced to more completely in Book 7 (that JKR has referenced in her interviews?) Maybe Aberforth? Curious as how all of you think this might play out! Julie From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 20:58:09 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:58:09 -0000 Subject: Prophecy - Did Snape hear the whole Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jgwahl99517" wrote: > I noticed a discrepency in what Harry was told about the prophecy by > Dumbledore (in OotP) and by Trelawney (in HBP). It seems very clear > that Snape was the one that was listening at the door in the Hogs' Head and was caught by Aberforth. Here is where the differences come in. > > Dumbledore told Harry that the evesdropper only heard part of the > prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. Trelawney told Harry in > Chapter 25 of HBP that she was at the interview and then felt funny > (probably when she gave the prophecy to Dumbledore) but then she told Harry that she remembered Snape being caught at the door. > > One thing we learned from POA was that when Trelawney gives a > prophecy, she "blacks out" and has no recollection of what happened > during the time she is giving the prophecy. If Snape had been caught before hearing the whole prophecy, she would have been in the middle of telling the prophecy and not been able to remember the interuption of the interview from its beginning. > > Some questions that this brings up: > - Did Dumbledore send Snape back to Voldemort with orders to reviel > the first part of the prophecy but not the whole prophecy? Since > Snape was probably a master of Occlemency even then, the second part > of the prophecy was still safely hidden. Marianne: I think the answer to this is no. On p. 78, US edition of HBP DD says "There are only two people in the whole world who know the full contents of the prophecy...and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed." Meaining the only two people who know are Harry and Dumbledore. Which also plays havoc with your third question below. jgwha: > - Was the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape the fact that, even though > he knew entire prophecy, he only reported the first part to > Voldemort? When Lily and James were killed and Harry marked, > Dumbledore then knew that Snape did what he was asked to do. > - Dumbledore and Snape would have been put in a mutually awkward > position. Snape knew the whole prophecy yet did not tell Voldemort. Marianne: I think we still don't know the whole story of why DD trusted Snape. He tells Harry he believes in the sincerity of Snape's remorse about what happened when he, Snape, delivered the abbreviated version of the prophecy to Vmort. It doesn't seem believable to me that DD thinks Snape is truly remorseful about James' death. Maybe he had a twinge about Lily, but, even so, this reason seemed flimsy to me. If this is indeed the complete story, I have to wonder what drugs Dumbledore was on ;-). But, I think there may be more to this than what Dumbledore told Harry. Marianne From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 20:57:49 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:57:49 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <3def328f05071906175d254948@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patrick Jarrett wrote: Patrick: > I was surprised by JKR's use of 'slut' when Morfin refers to > Voldemorts mother. I mean, this is a children's book. I don't know > about others but it shocked me, sure it got the point across, but if I > had a 7 year old child I was reading too I don't know if I want to > open that door that early to questions about what 'slut' means. Geoff: Slut also has the meaning of being "slovenly" so a child might hear the word being used of someone being scruufy, unkempt and ill-organised; the meaning of promiscuous might be picked up later. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:59:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:59:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: <20050719161748.72106.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133166 Nora: > > The most obvious answer seems to be: he either saw > > them used on other > > people, potentially himself and/or some of his > > friends. There's no > > way that James would have gotten ahold of Snape's > > prized book. > Rebecca: > I disagree. That spell was nonverbal. Unless they > snuck into the Slytherin common room with the > invisibility cloak, they had to have "stolen" that > information from Snape somehow (actually, that counts > as stealing too). They can't have just "picked it up" Alla: Well, remember what Remus says that at one point you could not walk around Hogwarts without being turned around by your ankle with this spell. Do you think all those people stole this spell from Snape? I think one person saw him use it, figured out and started doing it too. If the spell is nonverbal, it does not mean that other person could not work out what it is, OR it still can be used verbally. no? Alla. From nawyecka at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:59:59 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: horcrux theory Message-ID: <20050719205959.2039.qmail@web60415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133167 Voldemort wanted to plant the seventh horcrux inside the one who could destroy him. So if Harry succeeded Voldemort would still live due to Harry's horcrux. And if Harry failed, obviously Voldemort himself would still live. However, love and the sacrifice of Lily prevented the sliver of Voldemort's soul from entering Harry. But it did become the scar on Harry's forehead. Dumbledore has said that the scar will remain with Harry for the rest of his life. Does that mean that Harry will need to destroy his body to destroy the horcrux? In this way Harry could live, even if it is the body of another. Could this be where those switching spells come into play? Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:04:26 2005 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:04:26 -0000 Subject: Snape Still on the Good Side, Dumbledore not dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dvs_x7" wrote: > In OoP, I believe Bellatrix says that the Avada Kedavra Curse doesn't > work unless you really mean it so at the end of HBP I don't believe > that Snape killed Dumbledore, because he obviously didn't want to, he > just put him in a death-like sleeping state with a less than full > powered spell, afterall it says that Dumbledore's eyes were closed (p. > 608), and when you die your eyes are usually open. I think and hope > that we will all find out in the seventh book that this is a planned > move by Snape and Dumbledore. Snape looks the faithful servant in > Voldemort's eyes and Voldemort believes his greatest foe dead (there > were plenty of witnesses to confirm this to Voldemort and I'm sure he > will hear of Dumbledore's funeral). What better cliffhanger can you > imagine heading into the final chapter of the Harry Potter saga? > > "dvs_x7" DD is dead. His picture now hangs in the study and everyone saw his body. It is true that Bellatrix (sorry, no book in front of me, but I will take your word on the source) says you must mean it for the curse to work and Snape meant it. I agree with you, however, in that it was planned by DD and Snape. I tend to think that DD gave Snape the same instructions he gave Harry, something along the lines of "no matter what, Severus, you cannot let Draco become a killer. It will mean killing me, but you cannot let Draco kill." Snape, IMHO, did not like this but forced himself to use the curse and the it worked. Perhaps he was a bit shocked he could do it...I mean, he realized he meant to kill DD. It would also explain why he was so infuriated when Harry called him a coward...he had just summoned the courage to follow through with DD's orders and Harry had no idea what that took from Snape. He didn't get nearly as mad at Harry for attempting to use an unforgivable curse on him or, for that matter, using sectersempra on Malfoy. Snape also made a reason to keep Hermione and Ginny away from the fighting when he hit Flitwick. He could do nothing about those already engaged in the fight, but he did keep Harry's friend and girlfriend as safe as he could. If he were really joining ranks with the DE's, it would be advantageous for both of those to be killed when he had the chance...if for no other reason that to mess with Harry's already fragile emotions. Adam, a believer that Snape is fundamentally good (although not always nice) From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:05:08 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:05:08 -0000 Subject: A Possible Error in HBP In-Reply-To: <00ae01c58c69$3f56b930$6101a8c0@lupin> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Setzer" wrote: Jim: > With Sirius dead, Harry has no permission to go to Hogsmeade. Obviously > there's reasonable explanations around this, but none are ever stated in the > book (unless I just totally missed it). Perhaps after death a document of > that nature is still valid in the wizarding world. Geoff: I would have automatically assumed that the document would continue to hold its validity even though the signatory was dead. After all, a will does... :-) From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 21:05:28 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:05:28 -0000 Subject: Silly, Nitpicky Question about Hermione's OWLs In-Reply-To: <42DD50B5.4080503@verizon.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Berger-Barrera wrote: >Hermione got 11 OWLs - all O's except for DADA, in which she got an >E. She took Astronomy, Care of Magical Creatures, DADA, Charms, >Herbology, History of Magic, Potions, Transfiguration, Arithmancy, >and Ancient Runes. I thought she dropped both Divination and Muggle >Studies after that year with the Time Turner. > >How did she get 11 OWLS? What did I overlook? Karen: My personal view is that she sat the Muggle Studies examination without actually taking the lessons. Being a muggle-born she almost certainly knows a lot more about muggles that the wizards who actually set the exams and mark the papers, and so could pass the exam without having to be taught the subject. I've always imagined Muggle Studies exam questions to be along the lines of "Give an example of how a Muggle would manage in a dark alley without the aid of a wand" or "How would a muggle communicate instantly with someone several miles away without the use of the floo network". I'm sure a basic explaination of a torch or a telephone, without having to get too technical, would surfice. After all Arthur Weasley was in charge of the Muggle Relations Dept and his ambition was to find out how an aeroplane stays in the air, hardly classified information! In RL a friend of mine took Dutch 'A' level without having to take lessons purely because her father is Dutch and she was fluent in it, and as we now know for sure that the OWLS are the same format as the 'O'levels of JKR's schooldays, I'm prepared to bet that in JKR's WW one would be allowed to do likewise. Karen From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:06:33 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:06:33 -0000 Subject: What use is there in Dumbledore dying? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133171 With all these theories floating around that Dumbledore and Snape arranged the death, and Snape is not really at fault, and it was all a great plan and all that, I have one burrowing question: what use is there in Dumbledore dying? There's plot-use of course, and it means something in Harry's quest and all that, but from inside the book, why would Dumbledore plan his own death? What would be gained? And even worse, why would he plan to have Snape do this, and not tell Harry about it? The whole book is about him letting Harry in on Voldemort, and having Harry even help him with learning Voldemort's past, and figuring out how to kill him. Harry is the *only* person he took with him to the cave. We know that McGonagal didn't know about it, did anyone else (besides Ron and Hermione of course)? If no one did, or if very few people did, that means that he was taking Harry into his confidence, that he was *not* treating Harry like a sixteen- year-old who doesn't deserve to know anything, and if he had planned his own death with Snape, that would be a pretty strong betrayal of the trust he had just forged with Harry through the whole book (and the series). He knows that Harry *does not* trust Snape, so if he did plan this whole thing out, then he is assuring that Harry will *never* trust Snape. There is nothing to be gained by that either. I don't believe in the secretly good!Snape theories, not in the least bit. I would like to believe them, I really would, I liked Snape as a character before this, even would defend him, but there's no getting around the fact that he murdered Dumbledore. He said the curse (and we know he's very powerful, I have no doubt he could kill someone if he wanted to....and from the look on his face, he *wanted* to), it hit Dumbledore, and there's no blocking AK, Harry's the *only* one who has ever survived it. He's dead. As dead as Sirius. I don't see what there is to be gained in Snape mantaining his cover when there's no one left to spy to. The Order seemed as shocked as Harry at Snape's death. And is a spy really worth the life of Dumbledore? Is Snape really more valuable than Dumbledore? I think that Snape knew what he was getting into when he made the Unbreakable Vow. Otherwise, unless he's ESE!, he shouldn't have made it. Or he should have made it, and broke it, and sacrificed his life for Dumbledore. Nora made a good point about this in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132944 >>There are any number of holes for ESE!Snape, which will be argued over endlessly. But I like it, for a number of reasons: It's BANG-y. Very BANG-y. And it's appropriately ironic. We keep getting hammered into us "Harry is wrong, Harry's POV is limited". This makes it much more 'woah' if and when Harry is really, really right for once. Harry's intuitions, not this reliance on other people or trust in dry analysis, are going to carry him through.<< For once Harry is right. And he was, that was one of the points of HBP, since he was carrying on about Draco through the whole book and Ron and Hermione (who is almost always right) didn't believe him, and he was right. Dumbledore is failable, he's not a god, its possible that he *wanted* Snape to have turned to the good side so much that he believed it whole-heartedly when Snape's turn appeared before him. Dumbledore wants to believe the good in people. We'll never be sure though, until book 7. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From RhianynTheCat at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:06:55 2005 From: RhianynTheCat at aol.com (RhianynTheCat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:06:55 EDT Subject: The significance of Wormtail? Message-ID: <29.776c6a70.300ec56f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133172 After taking a couple of days to digest, and to peek at what others have to offer on the book, I have started my first re-read. One thing I am struck by ... why is Wormtail in the scene at Spinners End? We know Herself does nothing casually or extraneously ... so what is gained by having Peter there? Why him? What plot task does he have that relates to the Unbreakable Vow or some other part of that scene? **Rhianyn settles on the comfortable armchair by the fire and curls her fluffy tail about her just so.** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From avery at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 19 21:03:01 2005 From: avery at u.washington.edu (Avery Ke) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:03:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: <42DD667A.1030309@tds.net> References: <20050719202658.91162.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> <42DD667A.1030309@tds.net> Message-ID: <20050719210301.GP9486@gesh.kejia> No: HPFGUIDX 133173 No: HPFGUIDX 133174 I've scanned the posts today (so hard to keep up) and seen people speculating on what the remaining Horcruxes really are, where they are, etc. I'd like to see what everyone thinks the remaining Horcruxes are. Yes I know we're "told" what Hufflepuff, Slytherin, and Gryffindor's Horcruxes are, but we all know that JKR doesn't always tell us the full truth. When I was in the chat over the weekend, we talked about the Horcruxes as representing the values of houses (forget who mentioned it first or I'd give you credit, sorry). Slytherin values prestige and wealth, so a locket makes sense. If, as people speculate, it isn't a locket, I'd still say there is a good chance that it is some time of valuable object. It would be something that is a sign of wealth and power - what about that snuff box the group also found while cleaning out 12 Grimmauld Place. Gryffindor values bravery, so it seems logical that it is indeed Godric's sword. I can't imagine it being anything else other than the sword, so I'm open to other speculation on the topic. Hufflepuff values friendship and loyalty, so the cup doesn't make too much sense to me. What does a cup have to do with friendship and loyalty. Also keep in mind that it's Harry that seizes on the cup idea, so it's entirely possible that he could be wrong. Ravenclaw values knowledge. No Horcrux is mentioned for them, so this one is a completely open field. As they value knowledge, perhaps a book is possible? I saw the sorting hat tossed up as a potential horcrux, perhaps a hat embodied with knowledge of the founders could be the horcrux for Ravenclaw (I know it was Godric's hat, but I can't see the hat as bravery). We know the Gryffindor sword is at Hogwarts (which means Harry will be at Hogwarts for at least part of his journey in book 7, regardless of what he said). Do we know where the Hufflepuff cup is? If we do, I must have skimmed over that part of the book (tends to happen at 3am). I submit that the Ravenclaw book is also at Hogwarts, in the restricted section somewhere. Perhaps a book we've already seen before (ugh that means another re-read of the whole series!). The Slytherin locket I would imagine to be at 12 Grimmauld place if RAB is Regulus Black (unless Dung or Kreacher made off with it of course), but if it's Borgin or Burke, perhaps it's at Borgin and Burke's. Tammy, who can't seem to keep up with the zillions of posts From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 19:49:36 2005 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:49:36 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133175 "kenney": > > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux. > > > Boolean: > If this is the case then surely Harry would have to commit > suicide/order someone to kill him in order for Voldemort to die, and > then *someone else* would have to kill Voldemort, to destroy the > last piece of his soul. The Horcrux could actually be a part of Harry -- his scar. That would account for his ability to speak Parseltongue and the pain of the scar. And perhaps then Harry could destroy the Horcrux without killing himself. (I hope -- I don't want Harry to die in Book 7)! I'm not exactly sure how this would work -- but I do think it is plausible that just a part of Harry is the Horcrux. JKR did say in one of the recent interviews, though, that Ravenclaws would get their day. I think they will play more of a role in Book 7, and possibly that the Horcrux is a Ravenclaw artifact of some kind. fourjays22 From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:16:16 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:16:16 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133176 inkling108 at y...> wrote: > Snape, on the other hand, has no trouble casting the curse, and he > instantly succeeds. Think of it as a lab test. If the effect is > death, the cause must have been hatred. That is the way > Unforgivables work. And just in case we miss this point JKR writes > that he had an expression of "revulsion and hatred" on his face as > he aimed the curse at Dumbledore. > zgirnius: Others have addressed your other points well, I want to address this one. I submit to the Court that Snape did not succeed in his casting of the AK curse. The shock of the (inadequate) attmpt was enough to cause the weakened Dumbledore to fall to his death. (Just as Harry was ably to cause Bellatrix a moment's pain, Snape's attempt could reasonably be supposed to have *some* small effect.) My reason? How do people who have been AK'd look? No mark on 'em, a look of terror on their faces, eyes wide open. (See GOF, description of the Riddle murders.) How did DD look? pg. 608 US Edition. "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he could have been sleeping." COnsistent with a fall from a great height as casue of death...nit the AK curse. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:16:49 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:16:49 -0000 Subject: If Snape is good, how will he now help the Order? (more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133177 Julie writes: >Is there another member of the Order (again assuming Snape is on the >Order's side) who might know as much about Snape as DD and is still >willing to trust him? Could it be the member of the Order we are to >be introduced to more completely in Book 7 (that JKR has referenced >in her interviews?) Maybe Aberforth? I'm wondering if Dumbledore didn't leave memories for Harry, et al, somewhere among his belongings so that they could witness (using a pensieve) some of the conversations that took place between Snape and Dumbledore during those last months. This would provide proof that Snape was really working for DD and enable those left behind to see what, exactly, DD had in mind after his death. Surely DD and Snape talked about this.... desastreuse From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:16:53 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:16:53 -0000 Subject: Funniest line of the book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133178 "You'd think people had better things to gossip about", said Ginny, as she sat on the common room floor," . . ."Three dementor attacks in a week, and all Romilda Vane does is ask me if it's true you've got a hippogriff tattooed across your chest." Ron and Hermione both roared with laughter. Harry ignored them. "What did you tell her?" "I told her it's a Hungarian Horntail," said Ginny, turning a page of the newspaper idly. "Much more macho." "Thanks," said Harry, grinning. "And what did you tell her Ron's got?" "A Pygmy Puff, but I didn't say where." - pg 535-536, US Amythevivaciousone From tinkster at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 21:13:58 2005 From: tinkster at hotmail.com (tinksterl) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:13:58 -0000 Subject: Evil Snape? I think not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133179 > It just doesn't add up to Snape being evil, although I am afraid > Snape may have to pay for a crime he committed out of duty. He will > have no ally in the order due to Harry's witnessing of Dumbledore's > death, unless dumbledore himself (in painting form perhaps) explains > the situation to someone else. > > Hanna Delacour We also learned a possibly important lesson in this book - memories can be contained, and stored indefinitely, to be perused later, even after the person they belong to is gone. As much a fan as Dumbledore was of using the Pensieve, I wouldn't be surprised if, in the case that there was indeed an agreement between himself and Snape, there is a vial he left tucked away somewhere. After all their "lessons" this year, Harry would surely recognize it for what it is (a memory) if he sees it. -Tinkster From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jul 19 21:30:59 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:30:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What use is there in Dumbledore dying? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133180 >Rebecca/Huntergreen said: > With all these theories floating around that Dumbledore and Snape > arranged the death, and Snape is not really at fault, and it was all > a great plan and all that, I have one burrowing question: what use is > there in Dumbledore dying? > > There's plot-use of course, and it means something in Harry's quest > and all that, but from inside the book, why would Dumbledore plan his > own death? What would be gained? > *Kimberly* I don't know that he planned for it as much as he prepared for it, there's a difference. He knew Snape had make the unbreakable vow and that in order to give the continued impression that Snape is a LV supporter, it might come down to Snape going the ultimate distance and killing DD. Kimberly From otterific at dslextreme.com Tue Jul 19 21:20:39 2005 From: otterific at dslextreme.com (portraitsbypeg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:20:39 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP In-Reply-To: <20050719185526.96214.qmail@web50805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133181 Eileen: > No--but what about ***Eileen Prince***, Snape's > mother? > > But if the half blood prince is Eileen Prince, Snape's mother, then that would mean she is also a half-blood. (Sorry, not sure if it was mentioned ever if she was pureblood or not) It's possible (quite probable, actually due to the publishing date) that it was originally her book and was handed down to Snape, and he then made all the notes in the book. At the end, didn't Snape specifically tell Harry that he resented him using his (Snape's) invented jinxes and hexes? And he specifically called himself the half-blood prince. (Sorry, my copy of the book's not handy right now, or I'd find the actual quote. Usual lurker, Peggy From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 21:29:20 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:29:20 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > inkling108 at y...> wrote: > > Snape, on the other hand, has no trouble casting the curse, and he > > instantly succeeds. Think of it as a lab test. If the effect is > > death, the cause must have been hatred. That is the way > > Unforgivables work. And just in case we miss this point JKR writes > > that he had an expression of "revulsion and hatred" on his face as > > he aimed the curse at Dumbledore. Nope, there is no reason to think that LV felt any special hatred to poor Frank the gardener, nor did Wormtail harbor any feelings whatsoever towards Cedric Digory. If the person can cast the curse (assuming Bellatrix can be believed), they can kill anyone, regardless of their feelings towards them. > zgirnius: > Others have addressed your other points well, I want to address this > one. I submit to the Court that Snape did not succeed in his casting > of the AK curse. I believe he succeeded. But whether DD was killed by the fall (unlikely because if he were, we should have seen a broken neck, head, bleeding, etc.) or by the curse, Snape was just as responsible to his death (although in my opinion, he had no choice at that point). > My reason? How do people who have been AK'd look? No mark on 'em, a > look of terror on their faces, eyes wide open. (See GOF, description > of the Riddle murders.) The Riddles had a look of fear because of what Voldemort said or did just before they were killed. Cedric Digory looked slightly surprised but not scared when he died. The curse itself causes no fear, just instant death. Salit From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:32:30 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:32:30 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "McGovern" wrote: > How can Harry be a Horcrux? > > In order to completely destroy Voldemort he would have to kill > Voldemort - but then he himself would be keeping Voldemort alive? > (or stopping him from dieing) > **snip** Doddie here: Remember the MOM battle...when Voldemort could not possess Harry's body for long.. I think he can rid himself of the trace of Voldemorts soul in his body the same way. Probably when he has a carthartic epiphany regarding who loves him and who he loves and the power of that love. From ekrbdg at msn.com Tue Jul 19 21:39:34 2005 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:39:34 -0400 Subject: Question regarding Draco's safety and Snape's vow ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133184 I was thinking, Lord Voldemort had a task for Draco and that we are assuming was to kill Dumbledore. For all intent and purpose, Dumbledore's dead but it wasn't at Draco's hand. I think this task was a way for Draco to make-up for Lucius' blunders and save the Malfoy name in LV's eyes. Now, let's say that LV is upset with Draco and he feels that Draco failed him. Perhaps he will want him killed. We saw Snape make an unbreakable vow with Narcissa and Bellatrix to protect him. Is he under obligation to protect Draco against LV or did it just apply to the task ? (I just re-read that passage and saw where Narcissa adds that if Draco would fail, would Snape carry out the task for Draco and Snape says "I will.") Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tilley_adam at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 21:27:41 2005 From: tilley_adam at hotmail.com (Adam Tilley) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:27:41 +0100 Subject: My thoughts on the Horcrux's References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133185 I myself have a few ideas on the Horcrux's, but first a couple of things, the ring I believe was in the Gaunt's old house, DD said that he found it in the ruin of it when he went searching so that counts that location out for the other items. I think Mundungus has sold the locket, my reasons for this are, that I believe it was noted in OOTP that a locket was found in there, then in this book Mundungus was stealing from the house, so if R.A.B. is Regulus, it would suggest that locket was .THE. locket, anyway so I believe Mundungus has stolen and sold it, lucky for us then that he is in jail so Harry can question him and use him to go find the new owner of the real locket. Im not going to remark on the scar, as I feel that is not the case, the idea's so far contradict themselves, I dont believe Voldie would consider this as he didnt know that the profecy was fully about so he was just after ending the profecy straight away not preparing for the day when Harry comes after him. Now it is the other items that are of the most interest, so far we have found the ring, the locket and the diary, by my count that leaves 3 items left to find, which I think would be the cup, Nagini and something else, but the something else would have to be something important to Voldemort, also I think Voldie had already created his 6 horcrux's before attacking the potters that was last on the agenda I think to make himself immortal. Anyway so the something else I thought could be his wand perhaps, especially as even after all this time he still has his original wand, either that or another item that will become clear within the next book. The locations are a trickier part though, I would imagine important locations to him, so I would think that one would be in the orphanage he lived in, buried underneath or in his old closet or similar place, Nagini is obviously with him, and indeed his wand also is with him, so perhaps assuming it is another item I think the other item would be in another important place to him, and of that the main idea i come up with is the riddle house, as that too would have been an important place from his past despite the fact that he hated his muggle side. Those are probably my best ideas on the Horcrux's --- AdamT --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:35:45 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:35:45 -0000 Subject: And what of Draco? (decidedly long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133186 Geoff: And what of Draco? I have always tended to dislike Draco because he is arrogant, dismissive of those he considers below him, feels that his pure blood family gives him status and has a vicious streak in him. But I wrote in message 129690: "I have always had a sneaking sympathy for Draco because I feel that many of his less pleasant traits have been shaped by his background. Perhaps my sympathy has been aroused by a quote from C S Lewis, ? the opening sentence of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" (if I quote from memory correctly) reads "There was a boy whose parents named him Eustace Clarence Scrubb and he almost deserved it." An epithet which could almost cover our Slytherin friend! I have always held to the view that Draco /could/ move towards the side of light. As an evangelical Christian, I believe that no person is irredeemable unless by their actions and mindset, they finally make themselves so." So, what about Draco in HBP? What is he facing? `"Certainly," said Snape. "But what help do you require, Narcissa? If you are imagining I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope, none at all." "Severus," she whispered, tears sliding down her pale cheeks. "My son my only son..." "Draco should be proud," said Bellatrix indifferently. "The Dark Lord is granting him a great honour. And I will say this for Draco: he isn't shrinking away from his duty, he seems glad of a chance to prove himself, excited at the prospect ? " Narcissa began to cry in earnest, gazing beseechingly all the while at Snape. "That's because he is sixteen and has no idea what lies in store! Why, Severus? Why my son? It is too dangerous! This is vengeance for Lucius' mistake, I know it!"' (HBP "Spinner's End" p.38 UK edition) `When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little self- restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her tears falling on his chest, she gasped, "You could do it. /You/ could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you would, and he would reward you beyond all of us ?" Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tear-stained face, he said slowly, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy." "In other words, it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed."' (ibid. p.39) I have to confess that, on my first reading I completely misread this as the planning of an attack on Harry. The penny dropped much later that we were eavesdropping on a scheme to remove Dumbledore. But it is an interesting take on how Draco is viewed. Obviously Narcissa is devoted to him but it looks as if Voldemort and company view him as dispensable. Initially, things look fairly normal on the Potter-Malfoy scene. There is a strong exchange of words between them at Madam Malkin's which leads to an exchange of words between Harry and Narcissa when she makes one or two subtle remarks `Narcissa Malfoy smiled unpleasantly. "I see that being Dumbledore's favourite has given you a false sense of security, Harry Potter. But Dumbledore won't always be there to protect you." ... "Don't you dare talk to my mother like that, Potter!" Malfoy snarled. "It's all right, Draco," said Narcissa, restraining him with he thin white fingers upon his shoulder. "I expect Potter will be reunited with dear Sirius before I am reunited with Lucius."' ("HBP "Draco's Detour" p.111 UK edition) Narcissa letting her knowledge leak? And, then of course there is Draco's vicious attack on Harry when the Hogwarts Express reaches Hogsmeade at the very end of Chapter 7 "The Slug Club". At this point, I thought "Oh dear, he is going down the wrong route for certain." But, as the story unfolds, he is obviously troubled ? perhaps by conscience, perhaps by fears for his life and there are several little indicators that Draco is not a happy chappie. `"Conditions look ideal," said Ginny, ignoring Ron. "And guess what? That Slytherin Chaser Vaisey ? he took a Bludger in the head yesterday during their practice and he's too sore to play! And even better than that ? Malfoy's gone off sick too!" Very odd ? for Draco. (HBP "Felix Felicis" p.275 UK edition) `The ghost of a girl had risen out of the toilet in a cubicle behind them and was now floating in midair, staring at them through thick, white, round glasses. "Oh," she said glumly, "It`s you two" "Who were you expecting?" said Ron, looking at her in the mirror. "Nobody," said Myrtle, picking moodily at a spot on her chin. "He said he'd come back and see me but then you said you'd pop in and visit me too " ... "But I thought he liked me," she said plaintively. "Maybe if you two left, he'd come back again we had lots in common I'm sure he felt it..." And she looked hopefully towards the door. "When you say you had lots in common," said Ron, sounding rather amused now, "d'you mean he lives in an S-bend too?" "No," said Myrtle defiantly, her voice echoing around the old, tiled bathroom. "I mean he's sensitive, people bully him too and he feels lonely and hasn't got anybody to talk to, and he's not afraid to show his feelings and cry!" "There's been a boy in here crying?" said Harry curiously. "A young boy?" "Never you mind" said Myrtle..."' (HBP "The Unknowable Room" pp.432-33 UK edition) Curiouser and curiouser (said Alice) `"Ah well," said Slughorn cheerily, "as we're so few, we'll do something /fun/. I want you all to brew me up something amusing!" "That sounds good, sir," said Ernie sycophantically, rubbing his hands together. Malfoy, on the other hand, did not crack a smile. "What do you mean, something `amusing'?" he said irritably. "Oh surprise me," said Slughorn airily. Malfoy opened his copy of Advanced Potion Making with a sulky expression. It could not have been plainer that he thought this lesson a waste of time. Undoubtedly, Harry thought, watching him over the top of his own book, Malfoy was begrudging the time he could otherwise be spending in the Room of Requirement. Was if his imagination, or did Malfoy, like Tonks, look thinner? Certainly he looked paler; his skin still had that greyish tinge, probably because he so rarely saw daylight these days. But there was no air of smugness or excitement or superiority; none of the swagger that he had on the Hogwarts Express...' (HBP "After the Burial" pp.443-44 UK edition) Not the Draco we know and love methinks.... `Outside the bathroom, he pressed his ear against the door. He couldn't hear anything. He very quietly pushed the door open. Draco Malfoy was standing with his back to the door, his hands clutching either side of the sink, his white-blond head bowed. "Don't," crooned Moaning Myrtle's voice from one of the cubicles. "Don't... tell me what's wrong''' I can help you..." "No one can help me," said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. "I can't do it... I can't... it won't work... and unless I do it soon he says he'll kill me..." And Harry realised, with a shock so huge that it seemed to root him to the spot that Malfoy was crying ? actually crying ? tears streaming down his pale face into the grimy basin.' (HBP "Sectumsempra" p.488 UK edition) Then, finally, there is the scene between Draco and Dumbledore which is far too long to quote verbatim ? pp.545-556 UK edition "The Lightning-Struck Tower" - when Draco threatens to kill Dumbledore and when Dumbledore asks him to discuss his options, he replies that he has none otherwise he and his family will be killed. Dumbledore offers sanctuary but before things can move further, the Death Eaters arrive and the opportunity passes. Draco is alternating between wanting to "be one of the big boys", doubting whether he can bring himself to kill and also fearing the consequences. So, perhaps there is still a window of opportunity for him to come to the right side although that window seems to be closing as he remains under the influence of Voldemort's followers. Might we just see something in Book 7? Probably not a rapprochement with Harry but maybe a truce, a nod in the direction of good? In the light of the events which have hit London in the last few days, I see something in the way in which Draco is treated as echoing the real life situation of those young men who, brainwashed and seduced to the dark, thought it to be in a right cause to destroy themselves and possibly their souls and also bring death, injury and pain to so many around them. There is a parallel between these events and those instigated by Voldemort who cannot see anything other than his own perverted and evil ends and cares little even for those who follow him unless they bring him success. As a side issue, there is still the unresolved question of the "good Slytherin". Nott was noticed in converse with Draco in the book so does this cancel some of his Brownie points? From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:37:37 2005 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:37:37 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133187 Here's my last post of the day -- maybe someone already commented on this, I haven't read all of what's been put up here today (though a lot of it). Was anyone else struck by Dumbledore's weird conversation with Draco at the top of the tower (chapter 27, page 590 in the American edition)? DD and Malfoy are sorting out the evening's prior events (dark mark, etc) and Malfoy says (of his communication with Rosmerta): "..She said you were just going for a drink, you'd be back." "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... after a fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. "So you decided to spring a trap for me?" "We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry up here, to see who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" "Well .... yes and no ...." said Dumbledore. Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? I don't think DDore's "lost it" from potion drinking (he is weak, but no evidence that he's addled, right up to the point he gets AK'd). What does he mean that he came back "after a fashion???" He seems to be there, all right. I think he's definitely dead, none of this coming back from the dead stuff for me -- but that "after a fashion," what the heck is that about? And ahat does he mean by saying "yes and no" when Draco asserts that the plan (display the Dark mark, get Dumbledore to hurry up to see who'd been killed) worked? If the scene is read at face value it DEFINITELY worked ... yet Dumbledore's saying that, in some respects, it didn't. Is this a clue to the nature of what's happening at that tower? And if so -- theories? (I don't have any yet personally, but there is something very strange about the language here, a definite "more than meets the eye" sort of thing.) Julie H, chicago From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:32:16 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:32:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's betrayal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133188 I didn't think of this when I was reading the book because for most of it I assumed that Draco's task was to kill Harry, not Dumbledore. Now I think that Dumbledore knew all about Snape's unbreakable vow, because Snape told him. I think that for some reason which we may not be aware of yet, it was important that Dumbledore not be killed by Draco specifically. It could be something as simple as just preventing Lucius Malfoy from being re-instated as a high ranking lieutenant of Voldemort. The only way around Snape's unbreakable vow was for Snape to "help" Draco by killing Dumbledore for him. I think that is what they were talking about in the conversation Hagrid overheard. Snipsnapsnur From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Tue Jul 19 21:38:57 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:38:57 -0400 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507191739238.SM00956@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133189 There isn't time to read all the traffic here, so I'll keep it brief. A. Did anyone notice that the AK does *NOT* blast things? When Crouch!Moody demonstrated it on the spider, it was accompanied by a rushing sound, green light, and the spider simply falling down dead. When the Riddle family were killed, they didn't have a mark on them -- other than expressions of terror. And so on. A *missed* AK might be expected to blast something. When Snape supposedly AK'd DD, DD was blasted through the parapet. What if, as someone else already has suggested, Snape did not mean the AK at all, but did a wandless and silent Wingardium Leviosa to fling DD off the parapet at the same time he said the (fake) AK? There could have been any number of ways DD could have saved himself and substituted a body (inferi?) for himself. Had it actually been a conspiracy to fake an AK of DD by SS, they could easily have worked up an enchantment that looked and sounded exactly like an AK, to fool the DEs present who actually know what one looks and sounds like, while appearing to blast DD off the tower, so there would be time to do the switch. Balancing that, however, is that at the end, it was clear that Draco's task was not merely to repair the vanishing cabinets, it was to kill DD. SS therefore took the unbreakable vow to kill DD as well. If what we are told about unbreakable vows is correct, then either DD or SS must have been dead. Unless there was something misleading there (QUITE possible), then DD certainly seems to be dead. Also, I don't think Fawkes would mourn like that unless DD were actually dead. B. Did SS kill DD on DD's orders, or because he is ESE!Snape? Personally, I can see how JKR could make it happen either way, although the ESE!Snape theory seems to leave a lot more major moth holes behind in the plot fabric. (1. It's too obvious. 2. DD isn't the type to ignore the advice of EVERYONE he cares about over a period of years on a quick character judgment. 3. DD ended his life after an entire evening of failures and blunders that accomplished absolutely nothing -- which again does not fit DD. 4. It would imply that SS was the "most faithful servant still at Hogwarts" rather than Crouch!Moody, which cannot be reconciled with the events LV recites at the end of GoF, unless SS was constantly feeding LV lies about who was really doing things at Hogwarts -- quite a stretch.) C. The only comfort I can take is that she is probably well on her way to finishing book 7 by now. This was indeed half a book, and as much as I enjoyed JKR's wonderful writing style, I am *really* looking forward to the final book. Vivamus From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:40:51 2005 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:40:51 -0000 Subject: Question regarding Draco's safety and Snape's vow ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > I was thinking, Lord Voldemort had a task for Draco and that we are assuming was to kill Dumbledore. For all intent and purpose, Dumbledore's dead but it wasn't at Draco's hand. I think this task was a way for Draco to make-up for Lucius' blunders and save the Malfoy name in LV's eyes. Now, let's say that LV is upset with Draco and he feels that Draco failed him. Perhaps he will want him killed. We saw Snape make an unbreakable vow with Narcissa and Bellatrix to protect him. Is he under obligation to protect Draco against LV or did it just apply to the task ? > > (I just re-read that passage and saw where Narcissa adds that if Draco would fail, would Snape carry out the task for Draco and Snape says "I will.") > > Kimberly > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Do you get the feeling (and I could be way off here) that perhaps Snape didn't really know what the task was, and, when he found out went to DD and was told he would have to do this, yada yada..hence the argument? Also, in your opinion, did Draco fail in his attempt to kill DD or did he never REALLY try? When he did have the chance (not counting the necklace and the drink), he did not make the attempt. I could be wrong, just thought I would bring it up. Adam From otterific at dslextreme.com Tue Jul 19 21:29:48 2005 From: otterific at dslextreme.com (portraitsbypeg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:29:48 -0000 Subject: How do you destroy a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133191 I haven't read HBP a second time yet, so forgive me if I missed the information. Was it ever discussed/revealed by Dumbledore how to destroy a horcrux? Dumbledore basically lost his hand during the act of destroying the ring horcrux, but did he ever specifically say how it was done? When Harry finds another horcrux, will he know how to destroy it? Peggy From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:39:24 2005 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:39:24 -0000 Subject: Funniest line of the book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133192 Message 133178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amythevivaciousone" wrote: >Snip< "I told her it's a Hungarian Horntail," said Ginny, turning a page of > the newspaper idly. "Much more macho." > > "Thanks," said Harry, grinning. "And what did you tell her Ron's got?" > > "A Pygmy Puff, but I didn't say where." > > - pg 535-536, US > Amythevivaciousone *****\(@@)/***** Mine is: pg 75, US "Oh, there you are, Albus," he said. "You've been a very long time. Upset stomach?" "No, I was merely reading the Muggle magazines," said Dumbledore. "I do love knitting patterns. Well, Harry, we have trespassed upon Horace's hospitality quite long enough; I think it is time for us to leave." *** of course I am biased.....**** Dudemom_2000 (who is already planning her next knitted sweater with a snitch on the front) *****\(@@)/***** From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:45:47 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:45:47 -0000 Subject: Slughorn: a different look at Slytherin In-Reply-To: <015E190D.6B55C273.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133193 Sue / xirene101 at c wrote: > One thing I noticed in HBP, and rather enjoyed, was the fact that Horace Slughorn represents a departure from the usual "evil" Slytherin students and alumni we have seen. He's not potrayed as evil, just ambitious. He is more than ready and willing to use his contacts for his own personal benefit. But he has been on the run for a year to avoid the DE's, which implies he does not want to choose their "side" in the war. > This "new" look at Slytherin house is a welcome change. Thanks, Jo! **Marcela: I loved Jo's portrayal of this new character. Especially in the After the Burial chapter. I thought that Jo was at her best with characterization of Hagrid and Slughorn. I was laughing to tears in this scene: "...'I had him from an egg, yeh know,' said Hagrid morosely. 'Tiny little thing he was when he hatched. 'Bout the size of a Peckingese.' "Sweet," said Slughorn. Not long after this, Hagrid became tearful again and pressed the whole unicorn tail upon Slughorn, who pocketed it with cries of, "To friendship! To generosity! To the Galleons a hair!" And for a while after that, Hagrid and Slughorn were sitting side by side, arms around each other, singing a slow sad song about a dying wizard called Odo. ..." I know it's a strange scene to laugh at, but I just thought that it was great of Jo to show us how two friendly Gryffindor and Slytherin guys can maintain a conversation: only when drunk and/or in pain (Gryffindor) or need/greed (Slytherin). Marcela From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 20:49:23 2005 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:49:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, his death; Snape, his trust (replies to a million posts) In-Reply-To: <20050719195943.92793.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133194 saraquel_omphale > Do I believe that DD pleaded for his life? NO!! > Totally out of character. So that leaves 2 options: > 1 He was pleading for Snape not to betray his trust > and stay on the good side or > 2 He was pleading for Snape to do what he had said he > would do at this point in the master plan, which was > to AK DD Juli: > I have to go with option #2, but still, he's > kept Snape on the good side. juli17: > 4. DD would *never* plead for his life. Ever. He > doesn't fear death. I feel VERY strongly about this > one. His "Severus...please..." plea was an act, or > intended to prod Snape to carry out his promise--i.e., > kill DD. Jen's response: I believe that DD was pleading with Snape for forgiveness - for Snape to forgive DD for putting him in a situation where it was necessary for him to kill DD - and a plea for Snape to forgive himself for doing what he had to do for the Order - kill DD. From tilley_adam at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 21:33:54 2005 From: tilley_adam at hotmail.com (Adam Tilley) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:33:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Possible Error in HBP References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133195 Jim: > With Sirius dead, Harry has no permission to go to Hogsmeade. Obviously > there's reasonable explanations around this, but none are ever stated in the > book (unless I just totally missed it). Perhaps after death a document of > that nature is still valid in the wizarding world. In my opinion the howler from Dumbledore and the threats from his friends to Vernon and Harry's Aunt would have been enough to get them to agree to sign anything regarding such things if the school didn't continue to accept Sirius's word that it was ok. I am sure Harry would have used this to his advantage to insure he got what he wanted from Vernon, after all at the begining of the book, if you remember Vernon didn't know Sirius had died. -AdamT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ayaneva at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:53:50 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:53:50 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133196 I don't think I need the SPOILER space, judging by the other threads, but just to be on the safe side (because I go over A LOT of stuff in this post). S P O I L E R --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > I have read and reread the ending of HBP. I am also in the Snape is > not bad camp. He dislikes Harry. No getting around that. However > several things in that last sequence struck me as odd. If he was in > fact evil as so many have pointed out he would have killed Harry when > he had the chance. Or he would have allowed someone else to do it. > Instead he put a stop to the spell that another had put on Harry > Getting rid of the pain Harry was in. Also as we all know doing an > Unforgivable curse is cause for going to Askaban. When Harry tries > to do them Snape stops him and says "No unforgivible curses for you > Potter" He is angry at Harry and says something to the effect > that "You would try to use my own spells against me? Telling Harry > who his is when he could have at any time killed Harry. So I am in > the Snape is not evil camp. > > I haven't had time to read much of anything on this particular group (I'm ensconced in the 100 or so pages of posts at Diagon Ally at the moment, I'll hop on over here later tonight; hopefully. I have to finish the other discussion first), but here are the important posts that I made over on DA on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday right after I finished the book. Took me 12.5 hours from Saturday morning to Saturday evening. I'm such a blabber mouth that I couldn't wait until Tuesday to discuss. This thread here is the first thread I saw on the Snape topic, so hopefully it's OK to post to this one. I did try to skim back a bit to see what had been discussed. I don't think I've repeated too many things. Some of my ideas changed a bit, but I want to give everyone a complete picture of some of my ponderings. This is a little long and keep in mind that the following is actually quite a few seperate posts tens of pages apart. But they're all on the same topic, ie: Snape good or bad and how to prove it? I'll try repost them in chronological order and number them. Most people at diagonally seem pretty firmly in the "Snape is good" camp, myself included. Please forgive any improper abbreviations or grammatical errors, I did try to proofread, but it's an awful lot to proof and I'm certain that I've missed a few mistakes. Without further ado (and slightly edited for brevity...in a manner of speaking)... ---------------------------------- Post #1: Something just seems off to me about Evil!Snape and Naive!Dumbledore. I'll admit that Snape is my favorite character, so it might seem like I'm digging desperately for reasons to prove that he's not evil. However, Snape isn't my favorite character because I like him, he's my favorite character because he's intriguing. And after all is said and done in this book, I still don't feel as if I'm any closer to understanding him than I was before. There are a number of things about his behavior and relationship with Dumbledore that just don't add up. I, for one, figured that Dumbledore probably wouldn't make it to Book 7 and I had a sneaking suspicion that Snape would kill him. I just could never figure out the circumstances that might surround such a scenario (and boy, was I ever wrong in my guesses!). Except that Snape would have to do it in order to prove his loyalty to Voldemort...even though he was still loyal to Dumbledore. So, here are my issues: [edit]: I feel I should add that I too still believe that Snape acted on Dumbledore's orders. The following list is why I still believe this. 1) I simply can't believe that Dumbledore would trust Snape for such an unconvincing reason as, "Snape felt really, really bad about getting Lilly and James killed. No really, he felt super bad about it. Ok, let's give him a second chance!" I refuse to believe that Dumbledore is that stupid; he wouldn't have lived so long if we was that easily taken in. Even Remus is incredulous. I know that Dumbledore's "weakness" is looking for the good in everyone, but Tom Riddle didn't fool him even when Riddle was young, I'm sure Severus Snape wouldn't be able to fool him either. It just doesn't make any sense to me. There has to be another absolutely iron-clad reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape. Harry's only assuming that he knows what the answer is. I still think a magical binding of some sort is involved, I just don't know what. [HPFGU Note: For the record, I don't really think it was an Unbreakable Vow.] I mean, say you're Dumbledore. You know you've got a guy with some nasty tendencies, you want to keep him on your side. Furthermore, you're trying to lead the charge in a really important war. Would you just blindly trust him on good faith. Uh uh. I'd make him swear by magic or some such that he would be loyal to me. And Order of the Pheonix members. It would make sense if they had to sign some sort of magically binding agreement or something to keep their mouths shut. They've already seen what happens when people have lose tongues (Wormtail, though I wonder if he was actually in OOTP), I can't believe Dumbledore would risk making the same mistake twice. This is one of the reasons why I can't believe that Snape would be able to pass on any truly revealing information to Lord Voldie. 2) Now, why did Snape save Harry's life so many times? Sure, he tells Bella that he didn't want Dumbledore to suspect him, but c'mon. All he had to do was do nothing when Harry's broom was being cursed by Quirrel. Harry would've been out of everyone's hair. He didn't have to referee that Quidditch match later on. He didn't have to lie to Umbridge about the Veritaserum. None of this fits in with his seemingly "true" loyalties in Book 6. In fact, his actions in Book 6 seem a complete reversal and OOC from his actions in Book 5. I think that there's a hidden plan somewhere that's veered sharply to the left and I think I must've missed the veering. Something just doesn't add up. The Veritaserum and flat out lying to Umbridge in Book 5 really stick in my mind. And yes, Snape is a skilled Oclumens, but we've been led to believe that Dumbledore is an even more skilled Ligilimens. There's just no way that Dumbledore wouldn't have know something was up. And I can't belive for one instance that Snape saved Harry in Book 1 because he thought he might be the next Dark Lord whom he could follow. That's a really lame line of reasoning. The kid was 11 years old! And if Snape was saving Harry to be killed by the Dark Lord...well, the Death Eaters who go along with that always baffled me. And Why did he show Fudge his Dark Mark in an attempt to convince him that Harry and Dumbledore were telling the truth in Book 4? If's he's completely on Voldie's side, wouldn't he want to be covert about it? Why try to warn the Minister of Magic? You'd be better served by letting the Minister lull the masses into a false sense of security. Doing otherwise just makes your Evil Overlord job harder. Although, I still think he was in that group of Death Eaters at the Quidditch World Cup (the flip-upside-down curse and all) in order to keep his cover. But now that I think about it, I wonder. Who was it that said that the flippy curse thingie was widely used during their Hogwarts years? I can't shake the feeling that there are still some very important pieces missing to the Snape/Dumbledore puzzle. 3) I would expect that if Snape was passing Order information onto Lord Thingie, more Order members/allies would be dead. Easy to make it look like a series of valid targeted attacks without letting on that you're the one passing information. After all, no one is safe now and half of the group are Aurors. Aurors would be natural targets. The other members are known Dumbledore allies, also natural targets. 4) Dumbledore didn't seem at all suprised that Snape showed up. In fact, I think someone mentioned this already, he really seemed to waste an awful lot of time that could've been spent getting away talking to Draco. I mean, the conversation went on for 5 minutes and all the while, you could clearly hear the battle moving closer and closer. Why the heck would Dumbledore just chill there knowing that Draco's reinforcements are coming? And why keep Harry from interfering? Dumbledore could've stupified Draco as he came through the door, grabbed Harry and taken off on a broom. Why immobilize Harry, let Draco disarm him, and then waste 5 minutes talking to Draco while knowing that, not only is Draco not going to kill you, but that there are plenty of people coming behind him that could? And when did Dumbledore go front standing confidently and strongly while addressing Draco to slumping on the floor looking weak? Did I miss something? It was only a span of a few minutes! I mean, I know he was weak from the trip and all, but still... Speaking of which, I got the feeling very early on in the book that Dumbledore knew he didn't have that much longer to live. How did he know this? Why did he think this? What was the argument with Snape about? Snape said he couldn't continue to do "something", whatever "something" is... Whatever it was, he promised Dumbledore that he'd do it. They never said what "it" was. And the look of revulsion and hatred on his face. Was directed towards Dumbledore? Or towards himself? Angry at Dumbledore for making him do it? And I have an idea that Dumbledore was well aware that he was walking into a trap of some sort. 5) Begging Dumbledore? Dumbledore never begs. It seemed a bit of a put on. There's no way that he was begging for Snape not to turn bad; if Snape turned bad, Dumbledore would've known well before hand and wouldn't have wasted time begging. He also couldn't have been begging in general for his life to be spared. Dumbledore was never afraid of death. He just faced lord knows what on rock surrounded by Inferi(?) and now he gets all teary-eyed? No way. I think he knew what was coming and wasn't at all suprised. Combing numbers 3 and 4, it seems more like Dumbledore was putting on a bit of a show for whatever reason. [HPFGU Note: I later reconsider this view and now believe that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to keep his promise and kill Dumbledore.] 6) Why didn't Snape inflict more damage on Harry when Snape was running with Draco? Most Death Eaters would pause and at least cast a Cruciatus on someone. Snape just kept blocking the curses, if I recall. He only lashed out once after being called a "coward" and that curse didn't really do all that much damage. And what's with the "save him for the Dark Lord" bit in this specific case? Stupify Harry and take him with you. If anyone asks, Harry got injured and you're just getting him to safety. Simple. No one suspected Snape at that point, he could've done that. His only threat was Harry chasing him. Instead Snape just takes a prime opportunity to kidnap Harry and deliver him to the Dark Lord and wastes time throwing shielding spells instead of going on the offense. [HPFGU Note: As someone said on DA, I think this was Snape's final formal lesson to Harry, (paraphrased slightly) "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed."] 7) This bit just confuses me. Why offer your enemies a weakness by binding yourself to someone so that if they die, you die too? I refer, of course, to the Unbreakable Vow. That's just stupid. There's a bigger reason for it. And why did he agree so readily? I know it's to keep Draco from getting killed, but what will the Voldemort say if a) he finds out that Draco didn't kill Dumbledore and b) Snape did something completely insane like helping out Draco by agreeing to an Unbreakable Vow. That shows an bizarre amount of disrespect for Voldemort...and that's unusual and dangerous for someone who professes to be a loyal servant. It also implies that said servant isn't quite as loyal as one might think. That's an act of total treachery against Voldemort, particularly since Voldemort was trying to punish the Malfoys. Voldie's bound to be a bit irate at Snapes interference. ----------------------------------- Post #2: I just had a crazy thought upon seeing this text from the book: "He intends me to do it in the end,i think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, i shall be able to remain at hogwarts a little longer, fufilling my useful role of spy." [edit HPFGU: Haven't got a specific page number for this, sorry!] Now, who's this "he"? Snape seems the type of person, as any spy would be, who is skilled at saying one thing, while meaning another. I don't have my book in front of me at the moment, but based on the text above, I do wonder who "he" is. Bella and Cissy think "he" refers to Lord Thingamajig, but you could just as easily insert "Dumbledore" in every place where "he" occurs. A foreshadowing to the events surrounding Dumbledore's death that we missed, perhaps? It seems like something Dumbledore would do. Let Draco try to kill him first for two reasons: a) The Dark Lord won't suspect that Snape's clued Dumbledore in on the assasination plot and b) Teach Draco a lesson and make him think. Throughout the whole book, as I said before, Dumbledore acts as if he knows his time is up. His reaction time is slower and Harry's almost ready to trek out on his own. Rather than get killed at a really inopportune time or become a hinderance, Dumbledore opts to check out early. Who better to do the job than a trusted and loyal ally? Rather that than an enemy. And it has the added bonus of keeping Draco alive; Dumbledore knew well ahead of time that Draco isn't really the sort of murderer that his father or Lord Thingy are. However, if Draco had succeeded in killing Dumbledore somehow, Snape could've kept his cover a little longer. Yeah, I know the above theory is wandering dangerously into left field, but hey. *shrug* I just can't accept that Snape's bad, it just doesn't fit. It doesn't make sense and if he truly is bad, then it's a total cop out and Dumbledore's a mere fool. I don't believe that Dumbledore has ever been a fool. -------------------------------------- Post #7 (3-6 are inconsequential): Chicky841 Said: I personally think that R.A.B. is still alive, and that he is going to help Harry to find the rest of the Horcruxes. I mean how is Harry going to find the rest of them. He only has the barest idea of what the Horcruxes are, and I mean look how hard it was for Dumbledore to find out where they were hidden. And we actually expect Harry to be able to find them? In the note R.A.B. didnt say for sure that he was dead so there is still the possibilty. I think that for sure Harry will have some better help than Ron and Hermione. I also think that R.A.B. may be someone that we don't even know. Now me: I'm wondering if Snape won't somehow help Harry anonymously. [HPFGU Note: See below for my Patronus theory] Lord knows Harry's gonna need it, he's only a mediocre wizard and for all the books that Hermione reads, she's never going to know enough in the time given to help Harry figure this stuff out. I don't know what he's thinking striking out on his own without a gameplan. But I digress. How much did Dumbledore confide in him (Snape)? Snape knew about Dumbledore's hand, I'm assuming he had to have known what caused the injury. How would he have helped Dumbledore if he didn't know what cursed him? And why always Snape in particular? This makes me think that Snape knows about the Horcrux...whatever the plural is. If this is so, then this implies to me that Snape also has to still be on the good side because he had every opportunity to tell Bella and Cissy that Dumbledore hunting these things down and actively trying to destroy Voldie. But all he told Bella/Cissy was that Dumbledore wasn't as quick as he used to be and had a serious injury. I'm sure there are other explanations for why Snape mightn't have said anything, like he didn't want Bella to know the Thingie's weakness. But if so, you'd think he still would've said something like, "Dumbledore got injured when he was trying to find a way to defeat the Dark Lord. Serves him right, the stupid old Muggle Lover." Or maybe he did and I just don't remember. I'm skeptical that RAB is going to be the one to help Harry because I think RAB is already dead. It's not McGonnagle (sp?) because she hasn't a clue what's going on with the Horcruxes (Horcruxi, Horcruxen???). That could leave Aberforce since someone was mentioning that we still don't know what's up with him. But I think the person who seems most in the know, next to Dumbledore, is Snape. It seems that he's always been Dumbledore's right hand man. I also think that whoever said that Harry wasn't supposed to see who killed Dumbledore was absolutely right. I'm now wondering if, had Snape not known that Harry saw him kill Dumbledore (or if Harry just plain hadn't seen), Snape still would have run away with the other Death Eaters. It would be just as easy for him to tell the rest of the DE's to, "Go report back to Voldie. I'll clean up here and spread some misinformation. Draco stay with me here at Hogwarts and shut up." And yes, I think Snape's still on the side of good. It's funny because he is the right hand man of Voldie-poo and was the right hand man (I think) of Dumbledore. But I'm wondering why, if Harry wasn't supposed to see Dumbledore's murderer, Dumbledore didn't just Stupify him instead of Petrificus Totalis-kinda him (I don't think it was exactly a Petrificus Totalis spell because don't people hit with that spell freeze and fall over? Harry just froze and stayed upright. But that might just be movie contamination about the PT spell). Come to think of it, the simplest explanation might be that the "freeze against the wall" spell was the first one that Dumbledore thougth of, or perhaps he was afraid that if Harry fell, the Invisibility Cloak would move about and uncover part of him. Ok, I think that's it for now. Oh, I also don't think Snape used the AK curse because, as others have said, people don't fly up in the air when they get hit with AK. I think the fall killed him, which is nice in that Snape could say, "I didn't kill him and neither did the fall. It was the landing that got 'im." Alright, I'm just amusing myself now. Naturally, everything that I've just said and most probably completely wrong. [HPFGU note: See below about my crazy Horcrux theory involving the pseudo-AK curse casting] ----------------------- A few more thoughts that I haven't posted elsewhere... First off, the topic of Wizarding debts. Does the debt end when the Wizard to whom the debt is owed dies? If not, does Draco now owe a debt of some sort to Dumbledore or Snape? Dumbledore for showing him mercy and Snape for saving his hide? Or, in Snape's case, is the debt negated due to the Unbreakable Vow. Secondly, Snape's Patronus. I think I mentioned in a post above about how I think Snape's going to help Harry with the Horcruxes/i/en...whatever. I'm thinking he might send information or communicate with the order via Patronus. JKR *did* say that Snape's Patronus would be important. Lastly, the spell that Snape used to kill Dumbledore didn't behave the like the AK curse. Did we witness the creation of a Horcrux for either Snape or Dumbledore. If so, and I think this theory is quite wrong, but interesting nonetheless...anyway, if so, was it a Horcrux for Snape or for Dumbledore. Snape seems more likely, but if both he and Dumbledore killed Dumbledore at the same time. I mean, Dumbledore drank that potion in the Pensieve-like bowl, which I happen to believe was a slow-acting and fatal poison, so he basically committed suicide. And then Snape went and offed DD for good, meaning that both Snape and Dumbledore had a hand in killing Dumbledore. Again, I think this theory is really convoluted and completely wrong, but there ya go. That's it for now. Sorry for the length of this! AyanEva From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 21:57:06 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Brenda) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:57:06 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: Dumbledore's horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133197 Luckdragon: I believe Dumbledore's "death" was a premeditated ruse orchestrated by Dumbledore and carried out by Snape on DD's orders. DD felt he could not be in the picture for the prophecy to come to realization and arranged for Snape to perform a non-verbal spell(to make DD appear dead) while saying AK without conviction. Dumbledore is in hiding just as he was when he dissappeared from his office in OOTP. In HBP DD points out that both living creatures and possessions can be horcrux's. I also find the following quote by Jo an indication that this could well be true. Dumbledore created this Horcrux when Harry came to Hogwarts to ensure he would be around to protect and guide Harry in his quest to vanquish LV. Peter Humphreys for BBC Newsround. - Who did Fawkes previously belong to and will he play a vital role in the next book? JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never been owned by anyone but Dumbledore. You will notice that when Harry goes back in the Pensieve in this book, Fawkes is never there, and ?? no, I am sorry, not in this book, I take that back. When Harry has previously seen the study with a different headmaster he saw it with Dippet and Fawkes was not there then. Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession. From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:57:14 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:57:14 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: > > The Horcrux could actually be a part of Harry -- his scar. That would > account for his ability to speak Parseltongue and the pain of the > scar. And perhaps then Harry could destroy the Horcrux without > killing himself. Let's couple this with splinching, shall we? Perhaps Harry will apparate and leave a little piece of himself behind. If Ron could leave a bit of eyebrow, then Harry could leave the scar. Ersatz Harry, who hasn't posted for a very long time From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 21:58:41 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:58:41 -0000 Subject: If Snape is good, how will he now help the Order? (more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133199 Julie / fourjays22 wrote: > Assuming that Snape indeed was acting on DD's order to AK him, and > that > he is still on the side of the Order, how will he help the Order? It > seemed from the end of HBP that no one from the Order is likely to > trust Snape now that DD is dead at Snape's hand. > > I'm wondering how he (Snape) might work his double-agent role now, > because it seems like his primary assistance to the Order was sending > back information about the DEs. Is there another member of the Order > (again assuming Snape is on the Order's side) who might know as much > about Snape as DD and is still willing to trust him? Could it be the > member of the Order we are to be introduced to more completely in Book > 7 (that JKR > has > referenced in her interviews?) Maybe Aberforth? > > Curious as how all of you think this might play out! > **Marcela: In my message 132916, I theorized about this. This is the part referring to your question here. [snip of post 132916] 8. Dumbledore made Harry promise him to follow his orders/wishes even if they didn't make sense to Harry. (Cave chapter? or previous one?) I have reason to suspect that Dumbledore had asked the same from Snape: in the event that Draco were about to kill him, Snape should do it. A dead Snape would be worthless to the cause, :) That way, Snape'd have proven beyond any doubt that he was loyal to Voldie. But. I get the feeling that Dumbledore asked Snape to help Harry/Order after his death. Maybe another Unbreakable Vow? But who'd have been the 'third' party? New character in HP7? Or one of those Order members that Jo mentioned in her last interview, that we've heard of but don't know them well yet? "If" Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, this new or semi-new character will be very important in HP7, because so far the Order believed that Snape had betrayed them. This way, when this Order member confesses that Snape is truly loyal to them, then things would not look that grim for Harry/Order. I suspect of this because Snape had tons of opportunities to hex Harry at the end, he could have stupefied him and taken him to Voldie. But Snape didn't. He not only "told" Harry what he needed to do: close his mind and learn silent casting of spells, but he also convinced the other DE's to leave Harry. [end snip] So, I'd think Aberforth is a good candidate. Curiously, there is a parallelism with Bella and Cissy being sisters in the Unbreakable Vow with Snape...and Albus and Aberforth are brothers... Marcela From marlenahooker at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 21:49:34 2005 From: marlenahooker at hotmail.com (clytaemnestra_28) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:49:34 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > "We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry up here, to see > who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" > > "Well .... yes and no ...." said Dumbledore. > This one I'm not sure of; I'd have to read some of it again. DD could simply be trying to throw Draco off-balance by not seeming disturbed or upset--although he could simply mean that the reason they went to the tower wasn't entirely because the Dark Mark was there. I don't understand why they didn't land somewhere else, since DD was in such a weakened state, I'll have to read that part again. Marlena From lizvega3 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 21:12:52 2005 From: lizvega3 at aol.com (lizvega_2) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:12:52 -0000 Subject: Think Jo needs your advice? Think again. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133201 Immediately after completing HBP I called a friend, ready to OHMYGOD! OHMYGOD! about everything that transpired. Needless to say, I was shocked when she failed to agree with me about the 'greatness that is HBP.' I can handle that. Everyone has their own opinions. What really bothered me was when she called the book, "One big fanfiction." And she's not the only one. In livejournals, RL situations, even here, I've noticed that people seem to be laboring under the impression that we, the fans, have imperio'd Jo and forced her to type out our heart's desire and incorporate it into the sixth book. I'm not trying to be rude, but the idea of Jo Rowling, who I believe we all respect and admire on some level, actually being influenced by fandom??? I don't think so. In fact, I laugh at the idea of Jo Rowling 'crossing things off a list' in order to placate her fans. One of the big complaints I've noticed is the shipping wars. Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but for those of you who have reached the age of 16, do you remember what that time in your life was like?? If it was anything like mine, I spent an unholy amount of time discussing boys, talking to boys, discovering what those 'feelings' I'd had actually meant, etc. In interviews, Jo has said that she thinks it's completely unrealistic when a 16 year old character completely ignores the opposite sex. I agree. Also, love, and it's varying forms, was a major theme in this book. Why gloss over this particular form of love in favor of showing, once again, how Harry's mother's love saved him? We know. Just a little defense. -Lizvega ADMIN Note: Please keep responses on-topic and discussing canon, such as how JKR handled the relationships in the book. Discussions of the fandom at large and other responses should go to Off-Topic Chatter. From lynnfaragher78 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:06:40 2005 From: lynnfaragher78 at yahoo.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:06:40 -0000 Subject: The significance of Wormtail? In-Reply-To: <29.776c6a70.300ec56f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > After taking a couple of days to digest, and to peek at what others have to > offer on the book, I have started my first re-read. One thing I am struck by > ... why is Wormtail in the scene at Spinners End? We know Herself does > nothing casually or extraneously ... so what is gained by having Peter there? > Why him? What plot task does he have that relates to the Unbreakable Vow or > some other part of that scene? Well I think wormy is there at snapes because snape needs to keep an eye on him because of the fact that wormy owes harry his life.... snape knows this.... From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:09:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:09:20 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House Victorious!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133203 Betsy Hp: Okay, I for one *loved* HBP! I've only gotten through a first read, and I'm still a bit giddy, but JKR has hit it out of the park for me. And she *does* love house Slytherin! She does! She does! *Finally* we get an inner glimpse of the Slytherins hanging out and they're so sweet with each other. How much did I love Pansy stroking poor, "boy on a verge of a nervous breakdown", Draco? Oh, very, very much. How much did I love Draco *finally* getting some of his own back with a helpless Harry? Probably a bit more than is entirely ethical. And how incredibly cool was Draco throughout the book? His family is in danger and he sacrifices *everything*, quidditch, his schoolwork, his obsession with Potter, to try and save them. Plus, he was incredibly clever with the vanishing cabinet idea. And he was very good to keep his friends as ignorant of his delimma as he could, even when he was falling apart from the pressure. And he dropped his wand in the end! Yay! [As an aside, I loved how Draco and Harry switched positions from OotP, so that Draco was so beyond any childish "Harry obsessions" and Harry was himself obsessed with Draco, to the point of irking Dumbledore, even.] Slughorn was great! I loved the Slug club, and I loved how much insight he gave us on Lily. So Lily would have made a good Slytherin, eh? Harry came by it honestly! (See? Slytherin is *so* JKR's second favorite house.) And let's not forget Harry's new best-friend, the Half-Blood Prince. JKR really slammed us over the head with the parallels between Harry and Snape, didn't she? And I loved how the nickname became something almost ironic or cynical rather than any kind of delusion of grandeur. (Plus, total hints that Lily and Severus were study buddies -- yay for thickening plots!) Which leads us to the man himself, Snape, the baddest of the bad asses. I will admit to a punched in the gut feeling when Dumbledore died at the end. I had a moment of, "Oh Lord! I've been worrying over the wrong Slytherin!" But then I started thinking and realized that Snape is *so* Dumbledore's man (yet another similarity to Harry) and that Dumbledore was dying from his opening scene. Dumbledore made sure his death *meant* something, and Snape has been positioned perfectly. [Another aside: How sweet was Gawp cuddling Hagrid at the funeral? I mean, JKR actually made me like Gawp!!] And how cool has Regulus Black become? I'm dead certain he left that "In your face, Freak-show!" note to Voldemort, which goes to show he really *was* Sirius's brother, and what a shame the two of them didn't get to fight side by side. Some other stuff I enjoyed: Ron/Lavender - How utterly perfect a portral of teenage coupling. It was like High School all over again. Including the baby talk and the over the top Christmas gift. Harry/Ginny - Maybe it was cheesy, but I loved it. Good for Harry getting a tiny bit of fun time in before he's off to kill the big bad. Tonks/Lupin - Yup, the Sirius/Lupin ship has sadly been sunk but I'm quite sure it'll float on in fanon. In the meantime, Lupin gets him some lovin' and Tonks has mood-hair. What's not to love? Greyback - Probably JKR's most chilling villain yet. HE EATS CHILDREN!!! ON PURPOSE!! Tell me he's not an obvious stand-in for a pedophile. And he's the one who turned Lupin. I foresee a mighty payback in his future. Voldemort's history - So *that's* what kind of family he comes from. Did anyone else get a flash-back to the X-Files' episode, "Home"? Plus, turns out Tom Riddle, Sr. was the innocent victim in all of this. Nice twist. The still ambiguous Twins - The twins still manage some acts of uncomfortable cruelty. What was up with the garden gnome Christmas angel? And how interesting that all their wonderful inventions were used by Draco to get the Death Eaters into the school and flummox Harry's crew. Fluer - Molly has finally met her match! Fluer did a great job of showing the ugly side of the Weasley family, and she didn't back down a bit. It was like the war of the passive agressives. Most entertaining. And of course, her final scene with Bill was excellent. (Though I will admit that I've softened a bit towards Molly. She wasn't *quite* as grating for me this time around.) And finally, Dobby vs. Kreacher - Oh my gosh, that was funny. From Peeves egging them on to the raptures Kreacher goes through over Draco, I loved every scene they popped into. Here's hoping they show up in the next book! Overall, I was well pleased with HBP. Yay, JKR! Betsy Hp, looking forward to the giant scavenger hunt in the final book. PS "Fug" is actually a word. It means, "a stuffy or malodorous emanation". What a great way to bring us back to Harry, huh? From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 19 22:10:30 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:10:30 -0000 Subject: What use is there in Dumbledore dying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > With all these theories floating around that Dumbledore and Snape > arranged the death, and Snape is not really at fault, and it was all > a great plan and all that, I have one burrowing question: what use is > there in Dumbledore dying? > > There's plot-use of course, and it means something in Harry's quest > and all that, but from inside the book, why would Dumbledore plan his > own death? What would be gained? > Exactly, there isn't a reason for Dumbledore to fake his death. The series ain't called "Harry Potter" for nothing! It's been about Harry's coming of age and how he has to face a powerful enemy since book 1. Sure he gets help, but in each book Harry has become more competent at solving his own problems and taking command of his own destiny. To have Dumbledore magically appear during the final battle with Voldemort and to have Harry defeat Voldemort with more than 95% help from Dumbledore or any other character defeats the entire theme of the series: Harry Potter's growing up and being able to take care of himself. Harry is the alter ego of every child, who needs to grow into an adult. I realize there are plenty of theories around that Dumbledore isn't dead, but may I be the party-pooper here and remind everyone that at there were theories abound that Sirius wasn't dead either. I've come to take Rowling's work at face value. She's been up front with us, dropping various clues and hints---clues and hints that can be easily dismissed or missed when we allow our wants and desires for these characters to obscure the fact that Rowling calls the shots in the HP-verse. > > I don't believe in the secretly good!Snape theories, not in the least > bit. I would like to believe them, I really would, I liked Snape as a > character before this, even would defend him, but there's no getting > around the fact that he murdered Dumbledore. He said the curse (and > we know he's very powerful, I have no doubt he could kill someone if > he wanted to....and from the look on his face, he *wanted* to), it > hit Dumbledore, and there's no blocking AK, Harry's the *only* one > who has ever survived it. He's dead. As dead as Sirius. > > I don't see what there is to be gained in Snape mantaining his cover > when there's no one left to spy to. The Order seemed as shocked as > Harry at Snape's death. And is a spy really worth the life of > Dumbledore? Is Snape really more valuable than Dumbledore? > > I think that Snape knew what he was getting into when he made the > Unbreakable Vow. Otherwise, unless he's ESE!, he shouldn't have made > it. Or he should have made it, and broke it, and sacrificed his life > for Dumbledore. I don't believe in the Snape is good theories either. Way back in PS/SS Dumbledore told Harry that each of us had choices to make. Snape had a choice not to make that unbreakable vow. He could have easily told Narcissa that he only does Voldie's bidding, not hers. But he didn't. Did he? Sure you can hypothesize that Snape was under Dumbledore's orders, but that is only a hypothesis and from what I've seen of the Sirius isn't really dead theories during the last book....I wouldn't bet a Chocolate Frog on that. I think each of the Three (Harry-Ron-Hermione) has an adult counterpart. Harry's is Voldemort. Ron's is any number of the pure blood Death Eaters. And Hermione's is Snape. Both were excellent students. BUT the major difference was that Hermione wasn't a teenaged outcast like Snape was. She started off like him in PS/SS. But after the Troll incident, Harry and Ron became friends with Hermione----And that's the cautionary tale of Hermione and Snape: no child is an outsider by choice. Re: Dumbledore fallibility I wrote this earlier in another post, but I think this was very clever of Rowling. Not only did her characters blindly believe that Dumbledore was never wrong, she got her readers to think the same. And that's the other cautionary tale: it's okay to trust, but don't trust so much that you blinded to your own instincts and sensibilities. Milz From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:15:06 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:15:06 -0000 Subject: I never thought: Snape is good! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133205 First, I want to say that I myself am the last person I expected to be in the Snape camp. I was always under the impression that he was nothing more than a malicious child abuser (see pre-HPB rampant posting), but this book has put Snape into a new light. And, these thoughts come only after my re-read of the entire book ( I had nothing else to do this weekend). I do not cater to the idea that Dumbledore blindly trusted Snape simply because he always tries to see the good in people. I think he is more skilled at Occlumency / Leglimency than any other wizard before him. Snape could never have fooled him, no matter how good at occlumency he himself was. I believe Snape could LIE to LV and make him believe that Snape had never turned good, but not DD. I think this is foreshadowed in OoTP during Harry's first occlumency lesson with Snape: Snape tells Harry that mastering occlumency would allow one to utter lies in LV's presence, and not be found out. Snape never mentions DD, however. This is also the reason I think LV feared DD above all other wizrds. LV could never fool DD no matter how hard he tried. DD had always kept an eye on Riddle at school, and LV never forgot this. He knows DD could figure out his plans, thus the plan to erase him. I always thought that LV feared DD because he was a bad-ass at magic. Now, I'm of the opinion that LV feared DD because he was a skilled occlumens/leglimens, and no matter what, DD could always figure him out. Either way, back to Snape. Here are my reasons for the existence of Good!Snape: (1) He visibly balks at taking the vow to fulfill whatever deed Draco has undertaken from LV while performing the unbreakable vow. At this point, judging from later interactions with Draco, Snape is unsure of what this task is. However, Snape could probably figure out that it either concerned Harry or DD. The visible hesitation on the part of Snape is fishy. At this point in the book, the point of view is not Harry's, so the hesitation is probably not one of Jo's red herrings. (2) Snape is usually very quick to anger whenever Harry has a run- in with Malfoy. However, when Harry attacks Malfoy in the bathroom, more viciously than ever before, Snape gives him detention. (3) Snape is fully aware of where Harry learned the sectumsempra spell. After all, he created it, and knows that Harry must have his spellbook. Howewver, Snape is not visibly affronted that Harry used his spell...he almost seems to respect Harry for performing such a feat of dark magic. Totally out of character. (4) Snape never curses Harry with any intention of hurting Harry, only to merely stop him. If Snape harbors such negative feelings toward Harry, why not do more? Yes, Snape could be saving Harry for LV to kill. BUt he could torture Harry a little couldn't he? When DE crucioed Harry from behind at Hagrid's cabin, Snape stopped it. Why wouldn't Snape allow a little torture for Harry if he hated him so much? (5) Snape has yet to harm Harry even slightly, while he has been at Hogwarts. In Harry's first year, LV was obviously out of the picture, so Snape didn't need to "save" Harry for LV, did he? No. But he has never laid a finger on Harry, no matter how much he hated him. (6) In an earlier post, someone mentioned Snape's assistance to Harry. If you were fighting someone wanting to kill you, would you give them instructions on how to do it better? Snape tells Harry: "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" (U.S. 603). I don't see this line so much as taunting Harry as it is giving him instruction. (7)Ah, the great debate over Dumbledore begging Snape, and the AK heard (or read) around the world. Anybody that has read these books and paid the slightest bit of attention would know that DD would never beg anyone to spare his life. As he knows, and has stated, there are worst things than death, and he didn't fear it at all. I see this, like others have, as pleading FOR death. I think DD knew of the pact, and did not want to see Snape die for breaking it. When Malfoy failed, as Snape saw, he probably was wavering, and the plea from DD pushed him into action. Dumbledore did not care about dying, and I think that he could be more powerful in death than alive. A DD out of the picture would embolden LV, and possibly cause him to make a mistake. I think the look of hatred and loathing on Snape's face at the point of the AK was neither of those, but perhaps a look of anguish. He did not want to kill DD, but really he had no choice. If he's as close to DD as I suspect him to be, Snape will know in the end that he did the correct thing, and maintained his cover as well. Others have stated how they think a good Snape will cheapen the story, but not me. After Snape's behavior through six books, I am almost begging him to be good. I want to see Snape in action, to see what he is truly capable of. If I guess right, and I think I do, I'm pretty sure that Snape has abilities to rival those of DD and LV, and I would like to see them in book seven. Dumbledore has given Harry the mentality and the verve he needs to accomplish the tasks at hand. Let us hope that Snape will somehow provide him with the tools. Here's to Badass!Harry and Badass!Snape in book seven. Chris From vividscribbler at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:12:14 2005 From: vividscribbler at yahoo.com (vividscribbler) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:12:14 -0000 Subject: Snape, Horcruxes and Priori Incantatem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133206 I feel all jittery...I've got a theory! I read about Horcruxes, and the first thing that I wondered how one is created. Is it a spell, as most assume? Or perhaps a potion? Dumbledore says on page 506, chatper 23, of HBP (US): "I am sure he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed. After an interval of some yeras, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occured to him to turn her into his last Horcrux." There has been wide speculation about a living being as Horcrux, and I for one believe that Nagini is indeed a Horcrux. Having his last Horcrux as his pet would give him an excuse to keep on near him at all times. Even if all rest were destroyed, he could keep constant tabs on at least on Horcrux, and rest assured in his immortality. This also established a timeline. He must have created a Horcrux after his fall of the 1980's but before his ressurection. We can therefore assume two things: 1)Wormtail must know about the Horcruxes, because Voldemort was pretty much reliant on him at that point. (Perhaps why he's keeping him so heavily guarded, so he can't spill what he knows? In that instance, though, why not just off him and let everybody involved sleep better) 2)If it took a spell to create a Horcrux, then we would find it in GOF, durning the Priori Incantatem spell. So that's where I went next. In ch 34, pages 665-666 of GOF, the first spells we see come out in this order: 1) Screams of pain (crucio) 2) Shade of Wormtail's hand 3) Screams of pain (crucio) 4) Cedric Diggory 5) Still more screams (crucio) 6) Frank Bryce 7) Bertha Jorkins After this, in some order, Lily and James emerge from his wand. So we can reasonably infer that 1) Voldemort was using HIS OWN wand for spellcrafting by this time 2) If it were a spell, we would have seen its echo here. From this we can reasonably deduce that it DOES NOT take a spell to create a Horcrux. However, in ch 23, page 498 of HBP (US), Slughorn says to Tom Riddle: "...Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion-" "Encase? But how-?" "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" So now we're left we a couple of options: 1) JKR simply forgot to include this spell 2) Slughorn, frightened at what Riddle is asking, lies 3) Slughorn is mistaken In case 1, fair enough, we have no need to further need to explore this. I find case two rather difficult to believe, because he seemed genuinely rattled at this point, and it would be difficult lie effectively in a state like that. He seemed to be exactly where Riddle wanted him; too rattled to lie, too ashamed to tell. That instance leaves me with a question though. What would lead Riddle to believe that Slughorn knows anything of Horcruxes in the first place? To dedicate so much effort into extracting the information from him, he must have had a fairly good idea of it. Was this information perhaps passed on to Slughorn by another star student? Case 3 seems unlikely as well. Slughorn, here, would have to be a reliable narrator for both Riddle and Dumbledore to rely so heavily on his information. If she were going to contradict this information, I believe she would have done it in this book, although we will undoubtably learn more about it in the next novel. Where does this take me? All sorts of unlikely places where all sorts of unlikely but interesting theories reside. Just thought I'd throw this facinating tidbit out there to see what all you can come up with. Another Flint? Or something more? Viv From exslytherin at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 22:18:28 2005 From: exslytherin at hotmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:18:28 -0000 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133207 Humm, you've never heard of the Cup of Friendship? When we toast to each other we do it in friendship and loyalty, taking for granted that all those we toast with agree with the cheer. So a Hufflepuff cup makes perfect sense. I just hope it's not the cup that Mundungas nicked from 12 Grim. If so it could be just about anywhere or being held at the Ministry as evidence against Mundugus. The sword of Gryffindor is interesting but when could Tom have performed the Horcux magic on it? So if we are to agree that 4 Horcurxes are objects from the four houses, a fifth is the gaunt ring and a sixth is Voldemort himself that still leaves the seventh and final Horcrux missing... I'm putting my money on Harry at the moment. Cheers Mandy, who hasn't posted in months!! And who misses Kneasy! Anyone know where he went? From mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 22:07:49 2005 From: mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk (Maureen Frew) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:07:49 +0100 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD79B5.9010306@yahoo.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 133208 Tammy wrote: > Hufflepuff values friendship and loyalty, so the cup doesn't make too > much sense to me. What does a cup have to do with friendship and > loyalty. It depends on how you define a cup, I guess. Most people would probably thing of an ornamental goblet, or something you drink your coffee out of! If you want to link it to friendship though, then in Scotland, you get something called a Quaich - a friendship or loving cup! They're shallow bowls, usually made of silver or pewter, with a flat handle at each side. Traditionally, visitors drink their welcome and farewell from them. From that point of view, they tie in perfectly with Hufflepuff. Maureen From allthingshp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:18:41 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:18:41 -0000 Subject: Think Jo needs your advice? Think again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133209 > Also, love, and it's varying forms, was a major theme in this book. > Why gloss over this particular form of love in favor of showing, once > again, how Harry's mother's love saved him? We know. > > Just a little defense. > > -Lizvega > I could not agree with you more. At the end of the day, the Harry Potter series is a coming of age story and a discussion of how we become the people we are as adults through the decisions we make. For me (and I would argue for JKR as well) the mystery and epic battle between good and evil are a heightened metaphor for what ever teenager must do to "survive" adolescence and become a moral and complete adult. Sexuality and romantic love are a huge part of this growing process and an important part of Harry's story. You can laugh at teenagers being teenagers and still tell an important and mature story as JKR is constantly proving with her books. -allthingshp From labmystc at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:32:58 2005 From: labmystc at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:32:58 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133210 > Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? I don't think DDore's "lost it" > from potion drinking (he is weak, but no evidence that he's addled, right up to the point > he gets AK'd). What does he mean that he came back "after a fashion???" He seems to be > there, all right. I think he's definitely dead, none of this coming back from the dead stuff > for me -- but that "after a fashion," what the heck is that about? And ahat does he mean > by saying "yes and no" when Draco asserts that the plan (display the Dark mark, get > Dumbledore to hurry up to see who'd been killed) worked? If the scene is read at face > value it DEFINITELY worked ... yet Dumbledore's saying that, in some respects, it didn't. > Julie H, chicago You got me thinking now. He had a drink and came back, "after a fashion." And he responds to Malfoy's plan working, with "yes and no."(US, 590). So everything Malfoy said is true, DD did have a drink and he returned, plus as Malfoy said, the plan worked. The only way DD could answer these questions cryptically is if he NEVER came back. I pose to this to all on this list: Through your reading of the last few chapters, was there ever a time when DD was out of sight of Harry? Took a drink, plan worked somewhat...I smell a polyjuice potion fraud of Dumbledore!!! Is the Dumbledore that Snape AK'd really Dumbledore? Thoughts? Chris From obiwanshelp at gmx.de Tue Jul 19 22:19:23 2005 From: obiwanshelp at gmx.de (obiwanshelp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:19:23 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133211 zgirnius: > Others have addressed your other points well, I want to address this > one. I submit to the Court that Snape did not succeed in his casting > of the AK curse. The shock of the (inadequate) attmpt was enough to > cause the weakened Dumbledore to fall to his death. (Just as Harry > was ably to cause Bellatrix a moment's pain, Snape's attempt could > reasonably be supposed to have *some* small effect.) Obiwansheip: I think Snape only killed DD on his own request. The argument he had with him that was overheard by Hagrid could be prove for that. Hagrid says that Snape said DD was asking too much of him and that maybe he wouldn't be willing to do it. DD must have known he would not survive the poison. He asked for a quick death and Snape was the only one he could ask for this. His hatred that he needed for the AK curse might come from his hate aganst DD to ask this of him. Snape is now also in a better position to spy for the Order as no one will doubt his loyalty to Voldie anymore. Not even Voldie himself. The fight with Harry before he runs from buckbeak, well he never really liked the golden boy and with just haing killed the one man who always backed him up it was a welcome chance to let out his anger on him From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:39:53 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:39:53 -0400 Subject: DD's Plan & Favorite Misc *and* my takes on HBP In-Reply-To: <20050719155442.6401.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050719155442.6401.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42DD8139.80306@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133212 Eileen Forster Keck wrote: > It's made quite plain that he _loves_ Harry very much, > and is markedly touched by Harry's love for him. > Like when the Minister accused him of being Dumbledore's man, and Harry told DD he was.... > AND... > > 1. He let Snape teach DADA; that left Potions open. > I'm quite sure Dumbledore knew above Snape's old > textbook, and that he'd not be inclined to pass it to > Harry! Also, of course, there's the fact of the > jinx/curse on the DADA teacher...that would leave > Snape "free" to carry out DD's murder, via DD's > request. Well, not all the DADA teachers have died; Lupin and Umbridge are still kicking around. > 4. Utterly favorite quote: > RE: DD (Slughorn: "Oh, there you are, Albus. You've > been a very long time..." > DD: "...I was...reading the Muggle magazines. I do > love knitting patterns." Do you think he's looking for patterns for woollen socks? Now, regarding ships: I thought JKR did a great job of describing a teenage boy coming to awareness of a girl he'd never seriously considered before - the "monster in his chest" when he noticed he felt jealous of her and Dean. I too think they'll be back together at some point, preferably sooner than later, but these are children's books after all, so I think he'll come back to her once VM is kaput. With regard to Ron and Hermione, I thought that was also done well. Ron was jealous of her past with Krum and wouldn't approach her; got ambushed by Lavender, whose attentions were doubtless very flattering but not what he really wanted; she was who he asked for as he stirred after being poisoned; she was who he leaned on during the funeral. I had the impression they were a done deal by the funeral, actually. Now... Snape. I goggled a bit when he offed Dumbledore, but came to similar conclusions I've seen here already. That DD knew what Malfoy was up to and made Snape promise to a) spare Malfoy being a murderer and b) keep the Unbreakable Vow, sparing his own life. I hadn't considered that he was *ready* to die after taking that potion, though. Either way, I think he meant for Snape to do the job. Furthermore, DD definitely sacrificed himself for Harry and in doing so kept Harry safe (Malfoy didn't know he was there) and provided Harry with as many answers as he could. And Snape, too, for all he hated Harry, was IMO trying to help him - reminding him about nonverbal magic and the need to learn occulmency. The whole "coward" conversation - I think Snape was actually devastated about actually having killed DD and was, in his own way, screaming his anguish at his little nemesis calling him cowardly when he had just done the hardest thing he'd ever have to do. I wonder if either he or Malfoy will be helping HR&H find the Horcruxes in the next book. And does Harry know how to destroy them? It took basilisk venom to destroy the diary, and DD lost use of his hand to destroy the ring. If he doesn't, whom will he ask? I doubt Arthur knows.... Did anyone notice that we didn't learn anything new about Petunia in this book? Many folks predicted we'd learn some huge secret about her. And how about Lily... all we got about her was Slughorn's recollections, and I felt his recollections were somewhat suspect, since his priorities were more along the "who can help me" lines than "who is worth my helping". Thoughts? Was anyone else surprised that the DA didn't reappear? I was. Especially with Snape as the DADA teacher. And that Harry was made Quidditch captain. I thought Ron would have had it since he's such a strategist and better versed in the game. Or maybe that they would have shared. And there was NO mention of prefects at all, except R&H going to the prefects' carriage on the way to Hogwarts. Many suspected Ginny would get the badge, but apparently that was last book's story. Now - 7th year! Will HR&H actually NOT go back to Hogwarts? Will the school be open? Will McGonagall entice them, threaten them, bribe them, cajole them to return? Will Hermione be Head Girl? (which position was not even mentioned in this book was it?) What about Quidditch? Will Slughorn remain as Potions teacher, or will he take DADA next year to help Harry? Will the jinx on the position end when Harry kills VM? And onto Bill Weasley - I have to believe that his bitten-while-attacker-not-transformed status will prove vital in the war. Will his blood provide some cure or vaccine to protect others who might be bitten? Will he and Lupin together be able to sway the other werewolves away from VM? Can he now fight them without worry of being actually turned into one - the bite serving as a preventative or something? And where was my beloved Charlie during all this? Will he turn up next year with the dragons? Do we know how long JKR is giving herself to write book 7? I was delighted to see the twins providing more than just laughs with their inventions. But even so we didn't see much of them. I felt a bit like I did about "The Empire Strikes Back" - this was an ok story but served mainly to set the stage for the next one. Plotwise, we learned that Harry can cut corners in potions, Malfoy has almost certainly taken the Mark but doesn't want to be a killer; (what WAS that with Moaning Myrtle, anyway? will we find out?) Snape is secure in VM's good graces but still not necessarily a complete bad guy; and Harry has a grand quest now to find the other Horcruxes. Did I miss any essential threads? I did jam through the book in six hours.... Michelle From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 22:41:56 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:41:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers Message-ID: <219.513f0a1.300edbb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133213 In a message dated 7/19/2005 1:57:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, avery at u.washington.edu writes: yellows at aol.com wrote: >2. If true, is it possible Regulus is still alive? What is his > purpose in the story? Where would he have hidden the locket? Who > helped him get it? Kreacher? Would Kreacher obey Harry if Regulus was still alive? Regulus living would be a male in the direct line of the Black family, much closer than his -- please correct me if I've mixed up the genealogy -- female cousin Bella. Avery Brief Chronicles now: I agree. That must mean he couldn't have used Kreacher at all, then, since Sirius was alive until very recently, and would have had control over Kreacher the whole time. Brief Chronciles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 22:19:23 2005 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (Julie W) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:19:23 -0500 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD7C6B.8050008@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133214 Julie H/urghiggi wrote: >"Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... after a fashion," mumbled >Dumbledore. "So you decided to spring a trap for me?" > >"We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry up here, to see >who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" > >"Well .... yes and no ...." said Dumbledore. > >Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? What if by drinking the potion and then the water the inferi were floating in he was dead? Not dying, but dead. Animated and aware, but dead all the same. Maybe a wizard!zombie!!Dumbledore that Snape recognized and knew he had to finish to spare Dumbledore one of those existences worse than death. Sounds far fetched now that I've written it down.... Julie W From gledesma at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 22:42:48 2005 From: gledesma at gmail.com (Gino LV. Ledesma) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:42:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133215 On 7/19/05, Chris wrote: > I pose to this to all on this list: Through your reading of the last > few chapters, was there ever a time when DD was out of sight of > Harry? Took a drink, plan worked somewhat...I smell a polyjuice > potion fraud of Dumbledore!!! Is the Dumbledore that Snape AK'd > really Dumbledore? Thoughts? This much I think happened for the following reasons: 1. Fawkes left 2. DD's picture frame is now amongst the previous headmasters in the headmaster's office (now McGonogall's) - gino From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Tue Jul 19 22:45:10 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:45:10 -0400 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <42DD8139.80306@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200507191845990.SM00956@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133216 . . . instead of just pouring it out on the ground? Did that puzzle anyone else? Vivamus From yellows at aol.com Tue Jul 19 22:46:39 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:46:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] funniest line of the book!! Message-ID: <84.49bcc8a7.300edccf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133217 In a message dated 7/19/2005 4:27:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mgrantwich at yahoo.com writes: Two lines of Dumbledore's that I loved: "I do love knitting patterns." and "Jokes? No, no, these are manners." Magda Brief Chronicles now: How about Harry to Snape, "There's no need to call me 'sir,' Professor." :) lolol Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 19 22:26:20 2005 From: jjjwoolfolk at sbcglobal.net (Julie W) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:26:20 -0500 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD7E0C.3050108@sbcglobal.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133218 allies426 wrote: >I know that everyone is composing serious posts right now, and so far I >haven't seen anyone comment on the "funniest line" yet which was a >popular topic after OoP. I cackled when I read: pg. 27 "He'd have had me!" said Bella passionately. "I, who spent many years in Azkaban for him!" "Yes, indeed, most admirable," said Snape in a bored voice. "Of course, you weren't a lot of use to him in prison, but the gesture was undoubtedly fine---" That takes some guts to say to a nutter like Bella. Julie W ** * * From MindyCL at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 22:31:45 2005 From: MindyCL at verizon.net (Mindy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:31:45 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: Thoughts, observations and questions on HPB Message-ID: <42DD7F51.000032.05648@PC321527988155> No: HPFGUIDX 133219 Hi, it's Mindy from Brooklyn, NY checking in. There are eleven digests for me to wade through to discover if any of my questions have already been answered. So forgive me if they have. I am posting this now, then will read the digests as quickly as humany possible. My observations on the book as a whole: The book was great, but definitely lacked the usual JKR touch. I did not have the feeling as I read it that I was reading a bona fide Harry Potter book. It felt like a romantic murder mystery with some magic thrown in for good measure. There was no interaction between Snape and Harry throughout - where was his usual taunting? We saw very little of the classrooms, zero interaction between Harry and the other students of the other houses. There was so much missing. It wasnt a usual "year at Hogwarts" - it was a harry/dumbledore book. There was no Voldemort. I expected much more wars and deaths, but it was relatively calm. The book felt weird, different. Missed a lot of magical touch. The Half-Blood Prince was just a red herring. It was just a title, a small part of the plot. I kept waitin for it to be a main plot in the book, but it never was. That was bothersome too. In typical Mindy fashion, I read the last chapters first and was so thoroughly disgusted I wanted to throw the book down then and there! But I did read it and did enjoy it. I am not so disturbed by Dumbledore's death and there has to be a real reason for JKR doing it - which we shall have to hang tight for two years to discover. What I did like about the book though: * Draco has become more human and I actually feel sorry for him now. * I was so happy that Dumbledore and Harry got to spend so much time together the entire year - it was a really fitting goodbye. It would havve been awful had Dumbledore gotten killed in the fourth or fifth book when they didnt spend that much time together. Did anyone else notice that: * Harry never got his wand back at the end of the book? * Slughorn referred to Ron as RUPERT in Hagrid's shack - isnt that hysterical? It was probably intentional by JKR, no? Unanswered questions I have - if these have not yet been answered can someone try answerin them for me please? thanks. * Why did Dumbledore finally give Snape the DADA job if he refused to give it to him each year? Did he have a feeling there would be no school the next year or Snape would have to leave somehow? Wasnt Snape afraid to take a jinxed job? * Why did DD look for Snape so urgently when he got back from that cave? * Dumbledore appeared to already know about about horcruxes since he kept running around looking of them. So - why drive harry nuts to find the memory if he knows what a horcrux is? * why didnt Harry take the Felix Felicis before setting out for the cave? how did dd know where the cave is? * DD didnt get smashed and bloodied from such a high fall? He looked whole.. *What really happened to his hand? It got injured when he picked up the ring? * I'm finding it very hard to believe that Lord Voldemort really entrusted a 16 yr old underage wizard the task of killing the biggest wizard ever- didnt he think he'd chicken out the way he did? arent there enchantments in the castle to prevent things like the vanishing cabinet to be used? * Where is this mysterious house that Snape was in? Isn't he in Hogwarts all summer? How was polyjuice potion so readily avialable in the potions class? Whose hair was in it, and how could Crabbe and Goyle be 2 different girls if it was one polyjuice? Too farfetched to me... anyone feel free to answer, I'm going to read 11 digests... Mindy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vividscribbler at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:52:29 2005 From: vividscribbler at yahoo.com (vividscribbler) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:52:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hand (Was Re: Snape in HBP, a draft theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133220 Templar wrote: > This is my take of Snape's role in HBP, and from a girl that always > thought Snape was evil. This theory could also fit for a Snape that > works for his own - very Slytherin-like... > 4. Snape and DD knew that the magical wound/jinx/hex in his hand > will eventually kill him... my guess is that DD would not have lived > for too long that year. > 5. When 'Cissy Malfoy asked Snape to do the Unbreakable Vow, Snape > already knew of Dumbledore's wound and that his position at Hogwarts > was going to be compromised if DD died soon. Plus, as a double spy, > he also needed to convince Bella of his loyalty to the Dark Lord. > What better proof than to offer to kill Dumbledore for a DE's > fellow? After all, Dumbledore was going to kick the bucket sooner or > later...and in order to give Snape a bit more depth, perhaps he'd > really cared for Draco Malfoy. Okay, I like it, it's very Big and very bangy, but here's where I have a problem with this theory. First, the canon: Ch 4, page 67, HBP (US): "Well, maybe you ought to think about retirement yourself," said Slughorn bluntrly. His pale gooseberry eyse had found Dumbledore's injured hand. "Reactions not what they were, I see." "You're quite right," said Dumbledore serenely, shaking back his sleeve to reveal the tips of those burned and balckened fingers; the sight of them made the back of Harry's neck prickle unpleasantly. "I am undoubtedly slower than I was..." This proves two things. 1) They are both referring to the injury he sustained while removing the Horcrux spell from the ring 2) It is a common enough, or well-known enough, type of injury that Horace Slughorn recognizes it, and the cause of it. It was caused because Dumbledore's relexes are not as strong as they once were, and presumably, he couldn't block some sort of powerful magic soon enough. Next two bits: In Ch 4, page 72, HBP (US), Slughorn says: "Still...the prudent wizard keep his head down in such times. All very well for Dumbledore to talk, but takin up a post at Hogwarts just now would be tantmount to declaring my public allegiance to the Order of the Phoenix! And while I'm sure they're very admiarble and brave and all the rest of it, I dont' peronally fancy the mortality rate-" And again, on pages 72-73, Slughorn says: "Well, yes, it is true that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has never soutght a fight with Dumbledore," he muttered grudgingly. "And I suppose one could argue that as I have not joined the Death Eaters, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named can hardly count me as a friend...in which case, I might well be safer a litle closer to Albus." These are two solid bits of canon supporting the fact that before all, Slughorn looks out for himself and his own safety. He does not want to be killed, it is why he's been running for a year, having believe Albus when no one else did at the end of GOF. This leads me to believe that Slughorn, having recognized Albus' injury correctly, would not allow himself to be put in danger and publicly, albiet implicitly, declare himself on Dumbledore's side, if he believed that Dumbledore would be dead within the year. That would put him in even more danger then ever before, no matter how many powerful students you give him to influence. Given that, I don't think we can say that Dumbledore's death was imminent, just that he was getting older. Still, revise it a bit, and the theory might still float. Good luck, Viv On a side note: In the scene above, Dumbledore is wearing Voldemort's old ring, the one he removed the spell from and lost his hand to. Slughorn visibly notices it. Later on in the same passage of above, in reference to the ring, it says, "Slughorn's eyes lingered for a moment on the right too, and Harry saw a tiny frown momentarily crease his wide forehead." Later in the book, on page 494, ch 23, we see Voldemort wearing that same ring while he sits chatting in Slughorn's office before he corners him about the Horcruxes. Dumbledore must have worn it then, after he'd disabled it, to get a reaction out of Slughorn or to see if he recognized it. I wonder if he got what he was looking for. From d.marchel at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 22:51:06 2005 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (Dysis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:51:06 -0000 Subject: What use is there in Dumbledore dying? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133221 Huntergreen_3 wrote: There's plot-use of course, and it means something in Harry's quest > and all that, but from inside the book, why would Dumbledore plan his > own death? What would be gained? Dysisgirl: I don't think DD actually planned his own death. Rather, I beleive he made an unbreakable vow with Snape - a vow that went somewhere along the lines of this: "Protect Harry and Harry's mission at all costs." Snape is a super valuable spy to Harry at this point. So if he broke his Vow to Narcissa and died, that would be detramental to Harry's mission because he would lose Snape as a spy. Also, think about how good of a Legilimens Snape is, and how of a Legilimens DD is. I don't think it is out of the question to say they can communicate telepathically. Perhaps at the tower, DD told Snape, "Save yourself, Severus, you know Harry needs your information. Save the good wizards of this world. Please, do it." And by "do it," I mean, kill DD. And this way, he keeps both of is Vows. But this is just a theory, and I may be totally wrong and Snape, who was shown love and mercy for perhaps the first time in his life by DD, really is just a big old meanie. I know, I know - I am a die hard Good!Snape fan. I can't help it. ~_^ ~Dysisgirl From rpquate at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 23:08:03 2005 From: rpquate at earthlink.net (redandgoldlion) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:08:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's O.W.L. grades Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133223 Okay, so Hermione got one Exceeds Expectations. No one's perfect, right? But has anyone stopped to think that it was *Defense Against the Dark Arts*. So here Hermione is at the end of book 6, prepared to march off with Harry and Ron to fight the most evil wizard of all time, and the only test she didn't get Outstanding on was DADA. Granted, on her exam in 3rd year, she messed up on fighting a Boggart. But quite frankly, this is years later, she's an excellent student who no doubt made Boggart-fighting a priority after Lupin's exam, *and* she's had tons of practice combating the Dark Arts, both in reality and in the Defense Association. And she did seem *quite* disappointed, didn't she? I know she cares a lot about her grades and everything, but maybe, just maybe, she's upset for other reasons. She knows that the war is on and that her friends are targets. Maybe the spell she messed up on made her feel like she was letting Harry and Ron down. What if she was thinking, "I might need this spell to save them, and I can't do it!" What if her downed look is a guilty disappointement instead of an embarrassed one. Or maybe it was still the Boggart she had problems with. However, I find it hard to believe that her greatest fear is not passing exams, not. What if she saw herself failing to help Harry and Ron or something of the sort? So there it is. Quite strange that she, Hermione the Brilliant, only got an EE in DADA, isn't it? I mean really, this is Hermione we're talking about. What happened? She is too studious, and too intelligent to mess up on exams like this. So what *did* she mess up on? Any thoughts? ~redandgoldlion~ (Who's dying to know who RAB is) From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:12:46 2005 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:12:46 -0000 Subject: Fawkes: Dumbledore's horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133224 Luckdragon wrote: > I believe Dumbledore's "death" was a premeditated ruse orchestrated > by Dumbledore and carried out by Snape on DD's orders. Loony Loopy (me): Some major hurdles for Fawkes being DD's Horcrux: 1. DD would've had to commit murder to create the Horcrux: "By an act of evil - the supreme act of evil. By committing murder." (HBP Ch. 23, Horcrux) 2. DD's portrait: "And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts ... Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame over the desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled." (HBP Ch. 29, The Phoenix Lament) 2. DD did not fear death: "After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure." (PS Ch. 17, The Man with Two Faces) From steffy07 at aol.com Tue Jul 19 23:16:02 2005 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:16:02 -0000 Subject: RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133225 Was I the only one who thought of Regulus Black? > ~redandgoldlion~ (Who's dying to know who RAB is) From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:20:01 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:20:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133226 Boolean wrote: If this is the case then surely Harry would have to commit suicide/order someone to kill him in order for Voldemort to die, and then *someone else* would have to kill Voldemort, to destroy the last piece of his soul. In terms of Book 7 plot, I can't see Harry leaving the job to anyone else. Assuming for a moment that Voldemort 'wins' at the end of Book 7 - he would have to kill Harry in order to do so, and thus destroy one of his Horcruxes. I can't see that happening. vmonte: Actually all he would have to do is grab Voldemort and jump through the veil. Vivian From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:21:22 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:21:22 -0000 Subject: Thoughts, observations and questions on HPB In-Reply-To: <42DD7F51.000032.05648@PC321527988155> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133227 Mindy wrote: > * Why did DD look for Snape so urgently when he got back from that cave? Juli: perhaps because he was dying, or also because he saw the dark mark above the casttle? > * Dumbledore appeared to already know about about horcruxes since he kept > running around looking of them. So - why drive harry nuts to find the memory > if he knows what a horcrux is? Juli: He knows what a Horcrux is, but how many? only Horace's memory could tell him how many LV was planning on doing. > * why didnt Harry take the Felix Felicis before setting out for the cave? how > did dd know where the cave is? Juli: first, he was going with DD, the greatest wizard in thw world, so why worry?, second, he cares more about others' wellbeing than his own. > > * DD didnt get smashed and bloodied from such a high fall? He looked whole.. > Juli; What fall? > > * I'm finding it very hard to believe that Lord Voldemort really entrusted a > 16 yr old underage wizard the task of killing the biggest wizard ever- didnt > he think he'd chicken out the way he did? Juli: For one, Draco had to do it if he wanted his family to live, and second, because it seemed so unlikely that a 17 year old could do it, that it was the easiest way. > * Where is this mysterious house that Snape was in? Isn't he in Hogwarts all > summer? The house was in a street named Spiner's end. Only DD and Hagrid stay at Hogwarts all summer. > How was polyjuice potion so readily avialable in the potions class? Juli; Horace had prepared them long before, he even had Felix Felcis which takes 6 monyhs to brew. Whose > hair was in it, and how could Crabbe and Goyle be 2 different girls if it > was one polyjuice? Too farfetched to me... 2 cups of polyjuuice for each, with hairs from 2 random girls. Juli From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 19 23:21:24 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes: Dumbledore's horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719232124.89113.qmail@unknown-206-190-38-164.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133228 loonyloopyrjl wrote: Luckdragon wrote: > I believe Dumbledore's "death" was a premeditated ruse orchestrated > by Dumbledore and carried out by Snape on DD's orders. Loony Loopy (me): Some major hurdles for Fawkes being DD's Horcrux: 1. DD would've had to commit murder to create the Horcrux: "By an act of evil - the supreme act of evil. By committing murder." (HBP Ch. 23, Horcrux) 2. DD's portrait: "And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts ... Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame over the desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled." (HBP Ch. 29, The Phoenix Lament) 2. DD did not fear death: "After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure." (PS Ch. 17, The Man with Two Faces) LUCKDRAGON: 1) We don't know everything DD has done in the past. During LV's last war he could have found himself forced to kill and had the foresight to create a horcrux as a result. 2) DD is a great wizard. The portrait could be magical. 3)He may not fear death, but that doesn't mean he is ready for it now. Flamel lived to 600, DD still has a few good years left. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Adult education Organizational culture Harry potter book --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Tue Jul 19 23:21:36 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:21:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Hand (Was Re: Snape in HBP, a draft theory) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD8B00.6060700@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133229 vividscribbler wrote: > Good luck, > Viv > > On a side note: In the scene above, Dumbledore is wearing > Voldemort's old ring, the one he removed the spell from and lost his > hand to. Slughorn visibly notices it. Later on in the same passage > of above, in reference to the ring, it says, "Slughorn's eyes > lingered for a moment on the right too, and Harry saw a tiny frown > momentarily crease his wide forehead." Later in the book, on page > 494, ch 23, we see Voldemort wearing that same ring while he sits > chatting in Slughorn's office before he corners him about the > Horcruxes. Dumbledore must have worn it then, after he'd disabled > it, to get a reaction out of Slughorn or to see if he recognized it. > I wonder if he got what he was looking for. KJ writes I think Dumbledore wore it as a reminder that he knew something about horcruxes and that Voldemort would certainly be looking for him. Sluggy was on the run for a reason. If V believed that he was the only person who knew that he had been asking about horcruxes as a youth, he would have been at the top of the list of Voldies things to do. KJ From ar_hp03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:22:05 2005 From: ar_hp03 at yahoo.com (ar_hp03) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:22:05 -0000 Subject: Lily's eyes & charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kljohnson7868" wrote: > Ok, there was a brief mention of this - but I still don't understand > what is the significance. Are we to expect this to be answered in Book > 7? And will JKR finally give a complete account of what took place > that night that Lily & James were killed? > > Kathi, who wants Book 7 now! now! now! Now AR: Kathi, I think this was answered in book 6. I think the importance of Harry having Lily's eyes comes down his being able to firstly persuede Slughorn to teach at Hogwarts which makes it finally possible for DD and Harry retrieve the memory that tells us about the horcruxes. It was only because of the affection that Slughorn has for Lily and the fact that Harry's eyes remind everyone of Lily that Harry was able to accomplish the job of retrieving the memory. And we all now know how crucial this memory was to finding a way to destroy Lord Voldermort. This, IMHO, is the importance of Lily's eyes. --AR From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Tue Jul 19 23:25:30 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:25:30 -0000 Subject: Lily and Potions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133231 All through Slughorn's many pronouncements that Harry had inherited Lily's potions mastery, I kept thinking, "no, her wand was best suited for charms." That's what Ollivander said to Harry in SS/PS. While I realize that a person can excel in more than one subject, it didnit seem possible that for Lily it would be potions. So it begs the question(s), for me, was Snape helping Lily? Did she somehow copy from Snape's advanced potions book? How does that relate to Harry and what she "bequeathed" to him via her eyes? HBP is presenting as many questions as it answered. The more I read it (twice so far) the more things jump out at me. Claire From joj at rochester.rr.com Tue Jul 19 23:24:00 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: Ginny in the Chamber of Secrets...Swapping souls with Riddle? Message-ID: <007301c58cb8$f2bf1f90$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> No: HPFGUIDX 133232 CoS pg 310 American Edition "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed to. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted...I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." Interesting use of the word soul here, in light of learning of horcruxes. I wonder if this could mean anything? Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:28:13 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719232813.63882.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133233 redandgoldlion wrote: > > Was I the only one who thought of Regulus Black? > > > ~redandgoldlion~ (Who's dying to know who RAB is) I also think it may have been regulus. Sirius did say int OOTP that Regulus *DID* try to back out and got nailed. But who's to say he didn't try to do some dammage on the way out? laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 23:34:05 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:34:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts, observations and questions on HPB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003301c58cba$5abb30b0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133234 > * DD didnt get smashed and bloodied from such a high fall? He looked whole.. > Juli; What fall? > Sherry now: Well, didn't he fall off the top of the astronomy tower after Snape performed the killing curse? Even if he was already dead from the curse, shouldn't his body have been broken up by such a fall? Of course, didn't Harry observe when seeing the body that Dumbledore's limbs looked odd or something? Sherry From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 23:31:16 2005 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:31:16 -0000 Subject: RAB In-Reply-To: <20050719232813.63882.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133235 In addition, there is a locket in Grimmauld Place that nobody was able to open (OoP). The locket was not described at all but it's a possibility that the two lockets are the same. Personally, I think Harry is going to do a lot of travelling in Book7. I think he'll make it out to Godric's Hollow, Hogwart's, The Burrow and more. On that note, what if Mundungus stole the locket and sold it somewhere? That would be a perfect reason for us to get our first look inside of Azkaban as Harry tries to track down Mundungus. One more thing... I was reading somewhere (I forget where) that Sirius and Regulus have an Uncle Alphard. Perhaps this is Regulus' middle name? Genma From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:38:48 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] If Snape is good, how will he now help the Order? (more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719233848.96264.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133236 --- fourjays22 wrote: > Assuming that Snape indeed was acting on DD's order > to AK him, and > that > he is still on the side of the Order, how will he > help the Order? It > seemed from the end of HBP that no one from the > Order is likely to > trust Snape now that DD is dead at Snape's hand. I suppose it's possible that no one besides Draco and the DeathEaters was supposed to see him kill Dumbledore. So, the Order wouldn't know he did the deed and they'd trust him and Voldemort would know he did and would trust him. I really don't think that's it. I think there is something we're not getting. But I thought I'd present the idea anyway. Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From darqali at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:28:49 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:28:49 -0000 Subject: Snape; Dumbledore Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133237 Observations: The discussion of Snape's 'real' character {Is he on the side of good or evil?} is interesting ..... one clue sticks in my mind: When Harry {and we readers} first meet Snape, Harry's scar hurts! Remember? It is during the start-of-term banquet {Sorcerer's Stone}; Harry looks up at the High Table, where the teachers are sitting; he does not yet know Snape's name or that he is head of Slythern House, nor anything about his father and Sirius' old emnity toward Snape: "Professor McGonagall was talking to Professor Dumbledore. Professor Quirrell, in his absurd turban, was talking to a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin. It happened suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead. "cvx As far as I recall, that is the only time Harry's scar pains him which is NOT related to L.V.! I grant you, Quirrell is there and thus so {presumably} is L.V. {who is possessing him, or living inside him}. But it is Snape's catching Harry's eye, at this, their first meeting, that makes Harry's scar hurt! This event seems {to me} to point at Snape being on the "evil" side; for what else accounts for Harry's scar hurting? [According to Snape in HBP, at that time he believed L.V. "finished"; and he had fooled Dumbledore to keep a job at Hotgworts, as a preferable fate to being sent to Azkaban as a Death Eater. Still, according to Snape himself, his 'being reformed' was an act.] ***** Also interesting is the speculation about Dumbledore: Is he "really dead"? The appearance of his new portrait in the Headmaster's Office says, "yes". Also: Could Dumbledore have created a Horcrux? I agree that there may be some plot twist that Dumbledore 'comes back', but I don't see how he could have a Horcrux. Remeber the desceiption of how one is made, and that 'death is preferable' to tearing the soul into bits; to create a Horcrux, we are told, the wizard must commit murder. I do not see Dumbledore as a murderer, so he cannot have created a Horcrux, if that is the way it must be done. Dumbledore did not fear death; and would not mutilate his own soul by murder to enable himself to cheat death as L.V. has done. Darqali From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Tue Jul 19 23:27:10 2005 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:27:10 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133238 Just thought I'd add a few things: 1. In HBP... just before Dumbledore & Harry go to the Cave when they are in DD's office (chapter 25)... "Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.'" It sounds like DD was on the verge of telling Harry why he trusts Snape but stopped short. I really believe there is something more than just feeling bad about James & Lily. 2. I really don't think that DD would make members of the Order take an Unbreakable Vow about keeping their mouths shut. Something of lesser value, perhaps, but DD doesn't seem the type to have Unbreakable Vows. Maybe that's what you were thinking as well. 3. "Who was it that said that the flippy curse thingie was widely used during their Hogwarts years?" Lupin was saying this. He said spells like this come and go. 4. "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed." I couldn't agree more that this was Snape trying to give hints to Harry about how to fight properly. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape somehow gave Harry some more, possibly anonymous, tips in Book7 as well. Genma From kgpopp at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:40:26 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:40:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Prophetic Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133239 Kristen Here: I know we aren't suppose to do short posts but I hope you are right. Wonder what your thoughts are on the bond between him and Draco's Mom. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > `Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse > than death has always been your greatest weakness ?` Albus > Dumbledore OOTP p718 > > Albus Dumbledore planned his own death. He understands that Voldemort > would never even consider that someone as powerful as Dumbledore > would sacrifice their life as part of a master plan. But what is the > master plan? > > `Then you ought to hold your tongue!' snarled > Bellatrix. `Particularly in present company!' HBP p30 > > It is clear that Voldemort has allowed Snape to rejoin the Death > Eaters. Snape is far too valuable a supporter to turn away, since he > is the best placed spy Voldemort has. However, in the back of his > mind will be the same thought voiced by Bellatrix above. He cannot > completely trust Snape. Neither can he use Legilimens to be > absolutely sure. > > `If Draco succeeds', said Snape, still looking away from her, `he > will be honoured above all others'. HBP p38 > > By allowing Snape to kill him, Dumbledore will have ensured that > Voldemort trusts and reveres Snape above all his other Death Eaters. > When the time comes, this will place Snape in the most powerful > position to help Harry. > > The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all > evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading > Severus .please .' HBP p556 > > If you still don't believe it, consider this. Would Albus Dumbledore > ever plead for his life? No he would not. Would he plead if he > thought Severus was wavering, that at the moment of truth, the plan > might fail, because Severus doesn't want to do it? Yes he would? He > was pleading with Severus to kill him and ensure his plan would > continue. > > I genuinely believe that Snape trusts and loves Dumbledore more than > anyone else. I also believe that he does not think Harry is capable > of destroying Voldemort. He is angry that Dumbledore is sacrificing > himself unnecessarily! > > Brothergib ? Seriously impressed with book 6!! From jasnyder at intrex.net Tue Jul 19 23:40:37 2005 From: jasnyder at intrex.net (Jen Snyder) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:40:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133240 kneazle24 said: Why freeze Harry when the only threat was a conflicted Draco?) That, to me, is another argument that DD knew what he was doing and knew what the outcome would be. He froze Harry so that Harry wouldn't interfere (as he surely would have upon seeing DD about to be killed), be revealed, and be killed himself. DD knew Harry couldn't stand by and watch him die, so he froze him... Jen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From auntydle at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:40:27 2005 From: auntydle at yahoo.com (auntydle) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:40:27 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133241 I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the number of the platform? ...just wondering. Auntydle From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:43:19 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050719234319.16901.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133242 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > Alla: > > Well, remember what Remus says that at one point you > could not walk > around Hogwarts without being turned around by your > ankle with this > spell. > > Do you think all those people stole this spell from > Snape? > > I think one person saw him use it, figured out and > started doing > it too. > > If the spell is nonverbal, it does not mean that > other person could > not work out what it is, OR it still can be used > verbally. no? > > Alla. Of course not. But I don't think you can "figure out" a nonverbal spell someone else made up. How would you know what the word that needed to be thought was? I think someone (probably MWPP) snuck around and found/stole it. They then used it frequently or perhaps just taught it to others, who may well have used it verbally. I have no reason to doubt the pensieve scene there. Snape surely did not want Harry to see it. I believe they were bullies. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 19 23:51:29 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:51:29 -0000 Subject: Lily's eyes & charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ar_hp03" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kljohnson7868" > wrote: > > Ok, there was a brief mention of this - but I still don't understand > > what is the significance. Are we to expect this to be answered in Book > > 7? And will JKR finally give a complete account of what took place > > that night that Lily & James were killed? > > > > Kathi, who wants Book 7 now! now! now! > > Now AR: > Kathi, I think this was answered in book 6. I think the importance of > Harry having Lily's eyes comes down his being able to firstly persuede > Slughorn to teach at Hogwarts which makes it finally possible for DD > and Harry retrieve the memory that tells us about the horcruxes. It > was only because of the affection that Slughorn has for Lily and the > fact that Harry's eyes remind everyone of Lily that Harry was able to > accomplish the job of retrieving the memory. And we all now know how > crucial this memory was to finding a way to destroy Lord Voldermort. > This, IMHO, is the importance of Lily's eyes. > > --AR Hey guys, DD knew before Slughorn's memory that Voldemort made Horcruxes - he got the ring after all - and has suspicions about others. But it was Slughorn's memory that told him there were 6 in total, an absolutely vital piece of information if you want to track them all down. If you don't have a number, how will you know you've actually gotten them all? This, IMHO, is the importance of Slughorn's memory and, in turn, of Harry's eyes being so reminiscent of Lily's. Just my 2 cents From lindydivaus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 22:32:11 2005 From: lindydivaus at yahoo.com (Eileen Forster Keck) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP) In-Reply-To: <1121808565.2166.34590.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050719223211.81187.qmail@web50810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133244 Peggy: > But if the half blood prince is Eileen Prince, Snape's mother, > then that would mean she is also a half-blood. (Sorry, not sure > if it was mentioned ever if she was pureblood or not) ... I didn't mean to imply Eileen Prince was half-Muggle, I meant that in all likelihood, *she* was at Hogwarts 50 years ago, and therefore, that's how a textbook too old for Snape to've owned new as a Hogwarts student might still have belonged to him; hence, that the spells are indeed his work. Peggy: > It's possible (quite probable, actually due to the publishing > date) that it was originally her book and was handed down to > Snape, and he then made all the notes in the book. Exactly! I'm on my second re-read now (have the UK "adult" edition now, 1st & second reads were the US "children's" edition. Not too many changes, other than the obvious in spelling. -Eileen (Not Snape's mum) From lexac at mail.com Tue Jul 19 23:56:14 2005 From: lexac at mail.com (Lexa_C) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:56:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's Betrayal and the Themes of Book Seven (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > A person in a position of leadership must be able > to trust their own instincts and think for themselves, even in the > face of opposition from their advisors. > > For a long time now, Harry has had a strong intuition that Snape was > untrustworthy, that he hadn't really gone to the good side. > Dumbledore and Hermione, his two most reliable advisors up til now, > kept telling him he was wrong. (snipped) > Now Harry has learned the hard way that even the wisest can be > wrong, that he must never ignore a strong intuition again, no matter > what other people say, no matter how much he may love and respect > those others. You mean the way he did when he trusted Snape - trusted the Half- Blood Prince in the margins of his textbook, over the objections of those around him, and even liked him when the personal baggage between them was stripped away? Just a thought: Harry *does* trust Snape. Instinctively. Implicitly. As long as he doesn't know it's *Snape.* I have to wonder what that says about Harry's instincts and the impact his emotions can have on them. -Alexa From pagan-queen at charter.net Tue Jul 19 23:52:42 2005 From: pagan-queen at charter.net (Cathy McQuillin) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:52:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My thoughts on the Horcrux's In-Reply-To: <1121811512.2152.76620.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <44abkh$121a65q@mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133246 Adam: Now it is the other items that are of the most interest, so far we have found the ring, the locket and the diary, by my count that leaves 3 items left to find, <> Cathy: I think something we're forgetting is that Voldemort died, destroying one of the 7 pieces of his soul. Therefore there are only 2 left to find, assuming that he wasn't trying to make one when he tried to kill Harry (not make Harry one). From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:46:19 2005 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:46:19 -0000 Subject: Major Clue: Parallization between Harry and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133247 wrote: We used to only have the > parallelization between LV and HP, why throw in Snape all the sudden? Why do we have > three half blood key-players for the finale? Jen responds: I think, plot-wise, that JKR is offering something more complicated than the obvious good (HP) verses evil (LV) - Snape hangs in the balance, he could go either way (in the reader's eyes.) In the end, he is the big question, he has the decision to make. While the triumph of the good guy over evil guy makes for a satisfying resolution, I believe it is the individual internal good/evil struggle that is most compelling. From benclemson at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 19 22:41:50 2005 From: benclemson at yahoo.com.au (Ben Clemson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:41:50 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. and the location of the Horcrux. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133248 References are to Australian/UK editions. Here goes: 1. RAB refers to Regulus Black, who has the middle name of Sirius's favourite uncle, Uncle Alphard (OOTF p104). 2. Regulus was a competant wizard, possibly skilled at potions. Sirius called him a "stupid idiot" (OOTF p104) not because he is thick, but because he joined the death eaters. He was afterall a Slug Clubman (HBP p71) and we all know what subject Horace Slughorn taught. 3. Just as Dumbledore needed Harry to break into the cave to get the locket, Voldemort needed a young wizard to help him with the cave's spells, curses and potions. While helping Voldemort, Regulus, like Draco Malfoy, got cold feet at what he was being asked to do (OOTF p104). With his inside info he broke into the cave and switched the locket. 4. He was killed by Voldemort a few days after deserting the death eaters (HBP p103) without Voldemort knowing he'd stolen the locket. Voldemort always intended to kill the unimportant Regulus because dead men tell no tales. Regulus knew as much which is another reason he betrayed Voldemort. 5. The locket is the locket referred to in the glass cabinet of 12 Grimmauld Place. (OOTF p108). Regulus probably lived there with his mad mother and was killed before working out how to destroy the locket. She found the locket in his room and put it on display. 6. It was thrown out by Sirius, Harry etc after none could open it. (OOTF p108) 7. However it was rescued by Kreatcher, and is now residing in Kreatchers nest in the basement of 12 Grimmauld Place (OOTP, p445). Thoughts, comments? Ben From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Jul 20 00:00:51 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:00:51 -0000 Subject: Dallas Theory - Shipping Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133249 Dallas Theory Since finishing the book, I, like most of you, have been reading what others think about it. 1. H/Hr fans are upset, some so greatly that they claim to have given up on the HP series. 2. R/Hr fans are quite happy. They wish there had been kissing, but otherwise are on cloud nine except for Ron's actions toward Lavender. Many feel it was too much. 3. H/G fans don't know quite what to feel. Suddenly it was there and just as suddenly over. 4. Overall most fans feel the shipping was poorly written. You felt more lust than love Ex. Harry and Ginny just seemed to happen. No sign of it in book five, no build up in this book. Just suddenly Harry looked at her and was in love. 5. Characters seemed out of character, especially Hermione. The Dallas theory addresses all these problems. The name of the theory comes from an old television show that I never saw. One of the stars quit and was written out of the show. After being absent a season he was rehired, problem was that his character had been killed off. Now this was not a sci-fi or fantasy show so the character couldn't be simply brought back to life. The writers decided to have his wife wake up and hear him in the shower. She had dreamed his death and also the whole previous season of the show. What a get around. Fans weren't pleased. I don't expect JKR to say book six didn't occur. It did and everything that happened actually came to pass, but the Dallas theory believes that some actions that took place were love potion induced. You can stop reading now if you want, but I wish you'd hear me out. Actually I found the trio to all be quite in character until we reached page 183 and the first potion lesson. "It's Amortentia. It's the most powerful love potion in the world. it's supposed to smell differently to each of us, according to what attracts us, and I can smell freshly mown grass and new parchment and? " And I feel something that was characteristic to Ron because Hermione seems fine for a while, but then seems to have trouble concentrating when they start working on their potions. "Amortentia doesn't really create love, of course. It is impossible to manufacture or imitate love. No, this will simply cause a powerful infatuation or obsession. It is probably the most dangerous and powerful potion in the room." They chose the one nearest a gold-colored cauldron that was emitting one of the most seductive scents Harry had ever inhaled: Somehow it reminded him simultaneously of treacle tart, the woody smell of a broomstick handle, and something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow. He found that he was breathing very slowly and deeply and that the potion's fumes seemed to be filling him up like a drink. A great contentment stole over him; he grinned across at Ron, who grinned back lazily. I think the potion is much more powerful than Slughorn realizes and that from this point on, all three will be affected, but only if they come in contact with one of the scents they smelled. We as readers are accustomed to potions that wear off quickly. To accept this theory you must be willing to accept that this potion lasts months perhaps forever if not canceled out. The first example of Hermione greatly out of character is when she helps Ron to make the Quidditch. Hermione does not cheat and would probably feel Ron better off with the extra study time. Now over night Harry gets the hots for Ginny and Ron, who supposedly loves Hermione, starts kissing sessions with Lavender Brown. I don't know what either smells like at the present time, but I'm sure at some point Harry refers to Ginny smelling like flowers at the Burrow. Ron, despite hating Lavender's Christmas present continues to see her until he eats the Chocolate Cauldrons and suddenly can't stop thinking about Romilda Vane. Then after being cured and poisoned, he wakes up saying Er-my-nee. From that point on he wants nothing to do with Lavender. I know some of you don't want to believe love potions, but don't let your ship or personal feelings sway you. Actually, as far as shipping goes, this is a plus for R/Hr's because it means Ron was not cheating on the girls he claims to love. Hermione is obviously happy when Ron breaks up with Lav. We don't know if this is potion or true feelings or a combination of both Accept for Harry and Ginny breaking up, we don't have much to do with the ships anymore. Ron and Hermione sit together at the funeral, but that isn't the time or place for passion. Now lets look at the points listed at the beginning. If this was all love potion than ships remain as they were in book 5. Nothing gained, nothing lost. H/G most certainly isn't ruled out; actually if it is to happen, it will now seem more believeable. The big point to me is that if they were under the influence of a potion then the shipping was not written poorly, but instead, exactly as it should have been. Also, we have a reason why are characters were at times acting out of character. The trio was all under the influence of the potion. Other reasons I believe the Dallas theory. It puts all the ships back into play. Say what she may, Rowling does not want to lose any readers, Scholastic doesn't want to lose any customers and WB doesn't want its up coming movie affected. I believe that if this theory doesn't become popular by the time the movie is ready to screen, Rowling will actually come forth and say something to the affect that the characters weren't acting fully of their own accord. So where does this leave us if you accept my theory. Well, ship wise about where we were at the end of book 5 except for two things that may or may not be important. One is that Ron says Luna is growing on him. The other I find more distressing. Ron seems to have developed a jealousy of Harry. He doesn't like when Harry or Hermione do or say nice things to each other. I'm afraid there may be trouble a head for the trio. Thanks for taking the time to read. Neil From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:45:25 2005 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:45:25 -0000 Subject: Where are the Horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133250 Allthingshp wrote: > Since we have so so so long to wait for the next and final installment of the HP series I > though we might spend our time hypothesizing where the horcruxes might be (or who > might be holding on to them...) I had another thought about the Horcruxes. There are a couple other things at number 12 Grimauld place. When they are cleaning the drawing room one of the things they find in the curio cabinet is a music box that makes them all sleepy (sorry don't have book in front of me for exact page) but it says something like "until Ginny had the good sense to close it" another thing in that cabinet was a vile of something that looked like blood. so maybe these are things that should have a closer look taken of them. Sherry From DAFord at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 22:48:16 2005 From: DAFord at gmail.com (D.A. Ford) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:48:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes: Dumbledore's horcrux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133251 Brenda wrote: > In HBP DD points out that both living creatures and possessions can > be horcrux's. Hi all, New to the list (after finishing HBP and didn't want to spoil other's who hadn't read it yet). Just wanted to make one point about why Fawkes wouldn't be DD's Horcrux. The Horcrux is supposed to be some of the darkest magic ever, so dark that they must tear thier very soul. I don't think DD would do that. -- D. A. Ford They keep saying the right person will come along. I think mine got hit by a truck Ob La Di, Ob La Da; Koo Koo Ku-Chu From carodave92 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:01:38 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:01:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133252 Jen: > That, to me, is another argument that DD knew what he was doing and knew > what the outcome would be. He froze Harry so that Harry wouldn't interfere > (as he surely would have upon seeing DD about to be killed), be revealed, > and be killed himself. DD knew Harry couldn't stand by and watch him die, > so he froze him... > Don't forget about the Dark Mark above the castle...only the DEs know how the incantation for the Dark Mark, DD could have frozen Harry to protect him from any DEs who were there. Even if he thought Draco was the only DE at the castle...the sight of Harry (or an exchange of jinxes with him) would make Draco feel more reckless. DD was trying to protect both boys. Do you think Draco is completely horrified by what happened? This will be the first time he's seen death (he couldn't see thestrals) and a violent death at that. Maybe it will shock him back to the good side? Carodave From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:09:26 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP) In-Reply-To: <20050719223211.81187.qmail@web50810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050720000926.17312.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133253 --- Eileen Forster Keck wrote: > I didn't mean to imply Eileen Prince was half-Muggle, > I meant that in all likelihood, *she* was at Hogwarts > 50 years ago, and therefore, that's how a textbook too > old for Snape to've owned new as a Hogwarts student > might still have belonged to him; hence, that the > spells are indeed his work. It is most likely Eileen was at school 50 years ago, and Snape most likely got his mother's book as a hand-me-down. If the greying underpants and his ghetto home at Spinner's End indicates, Snape grew up dirt poor. Have you notice there're many aspects of Snape's life mirror Tom Riddle's life? Maybe Tobias Snape was a poor, low class man if Snape's house was at muggle ghetto/industrial area. And Eileen lost her magic just like Tom's mother due to some distress, the glimpse into their family life isn't pretty (Snape's dad yelling at a cowering Eileen and crying Severus). So Snape had no money for new schoolbook but using Eileen's old school stuffs. > -Eileen > (Not Snape's mum) hehe~ :DDDDD D. From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 20 00:11:51 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:11:51 +0200 Subject: Questions about the potion's book. Message-ID: <012901c58cbf$a2702d70$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 133254 Here's something that has been bugging me since I finished reading. Just wanted to know what you think about it. I think Harry will go back to Hogwarts and retrieve Snape's book. JK gave us too much detail as to where he hid it, how he made sure he could find it later... etc. And the book has been great help, no only in potions, but with jinxes pretty useful. I think, too, that it hides some secrets about Snape something that can come as very important later. Anyone agrees on this one? And about Snape killing DD... well, I too think he did it following DD's orders, to save Draco and to save himself and I think DD knew he was dying after drinking whatever it was in the basin and that's why he was so keen to find Severus, when going back to Hogwarts, it was all he would say... I need Severus, but not to get help from him but so that Severus could kill him and fulfilll his vow. Just a thought, anyway Cheers, Fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:15:55 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:15:55 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133255 Hey guys, I was happy to see that on this site, at least, I wasn't the only one thinking of the Sorting Hat when reading the lines "'I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe.' Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a small case". (HBP, pg. 472 UK) After all, didn't the Sorting Hat himself say that he was once Godric Gryffindor's hat, at least it would sure seem that way: "'Twas Gryffindor who found the way / He whipped me off his head / The founders put some brains in me / So I could choose instead" (GoF, pg. 177 US) Now, I know that the case for the Sorting Hat being a Horcrux is a very slim one: After all, it doesn't exhibit any of Voldemort's personality-traits and even warns the school for danger, reminding them to be strong and united. The four founders enchanted it together (see quote above) and it would thus seem really hard to hoodwink. All this notwithstanding, it /would/ make quite a prize. What other item is more central to Hogwarts and has been for the entire duration of its existance? None whatsoever. But what worries me is that DD doesn't mention it when talking about relics. I can think of several explanations: 1) DD overlooks it - unlikely, seeing as he's, well, Dumbledore. 2) DD doesn't consider the Sorting Hat a Gryffindor artefact - possible, seeing as it's more of a Hogwarts relic by now, but Voldemort seemingly just wanted items that had belonged to the founders, as the Sorting Hat did to Godric Gryffindor 3) JKR forgot that the Sorting Hat is Gryffindor's - possible, after all she did claim that her readers know the books far better than she does and the Gryffindor-link is one mentioned sideways in some 'unimportant' spot. Still, it would seem unlikely for her to forget. I'm wondering what y'all's take is on all this :) Cheers, Alon From splewis at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 23:09:41 2005 From: splewis at gmail.com (splooey2002) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:09:41 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133256 Allie wrote: > I know that everyone is composing serious posts right now, and so > far I haven't seen anyone comment on the "funniest line" yet which > was a popular topic after OoP. I'm a dedicated lurker but my vote for the Funniest Line is: "Two days ago Arkie Philpott had a Probity Probe stuck up his... Well, trust me, this way's easier." Bill Weasley Sheer brilliant lunacy. I love her. splooey From littleleah at handbag.com Wed Jul 20 00:22:18 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:22:18 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Wormtail and the Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133257 I'm still wildly seesawing on Snape, so I won't post on that. I was wondering what if one of the Horcruxes isn't Nagini? Was Voldemort in any fit state to give away part of his soul when he killed Frank Bryce? I'm thinking about the murder of Cedric Diggory. It must be Wormtail who wields the wand, but whose is the inspiration behind the spell- I can't imagine Wormtail having the wherewithal to AK a boy he doesn't know. That 'kill the spare' has always bothered me. Why not leave Cedric alive as a witness to Voldemort's triumph; he could easily (we know now) be immobilised during proceedings in the graveyard. And Sirius has told us in OOTP that Voldemort doesn't often kill personally and for the hell of it, he sends his DEs. In the graveyard, Voldemort hopes to do two things, recover strength and physical being, and destroy his nemesis, Harry Potter. He might well want to tuck a bit of soul away before he tries again. So having ripped off a piece of soul with the killing of Cedric, he makes a horcrux out of silver and gives it to Wormtail (after all, why would he otherwise care if Wormtail has a prothesis or a stump?). And we see the spell that creates the horcrux in priori incantem, we just don't recognise it as such. And that's why Wormtail has been kept at Spinner's End. It's late, so there are probably a lot of holes in this theory-any thoughts? And finally on Wormtail- I know there's been speculation on various boards that the silver hand (horcrux or not) was going to be the downfall of Lupin. But we now have another werewolf, named after the evil wolf of norse mythology. Fenrir was eventually bound when a god placed a hand in his mouth- it was bitten off, but Fenrir was captured and his power restrained. Is this Wormtail's redemption? Leah From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:22:27 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:22:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP) In-Reply-To: <20050720000926.17312.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050719223211.81187.qmail@web50810.mail.yahoo.com> <20050720000926.17312.qmail@web30309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133258 > Have you notice > there're many aspects of Snape's life mirror Tom Riddle's life? > Maybe Tobias Snape was a poor, low class man if Snape's > house was at muggle ghetto/industrial area. And Eileen > lost her magic just like Tom's mother due to some distress, > the glimpse into their family life isn't pretty (Snape's > dad yelling at a cowering Eileen and crying Severus). > > So Snape had no money for new schoolbook but using > Eileen's old school stuffs. > > > -Eileen Harry noticed that too, remember at the end of the book he himself thinks of how Snape's life parallels Voldemort's and gladly latches on to it as an extra reason to hate Snape (as if he needs an extra by this point, after all, unlike many fans me included he doesn't think DD was in on his own murder). In fact, he uses it as an example of DD's fallibility. From page 594 of the Canadian edition: "...he's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name - *Lord* Voldemort - the Half-Blood *Prince* - how could Dumbledore have missed -?" One thing I find interesting. Right after the abovecited paragraph, Harry goes on to think how he himself was taken in by the HBP "in spite of the increasing nastiness of those scribbled spells..." It made me wonder, because I didn't notice any increasing nastiness really. Up until Sectumsempra, all of the non-potions improvement spells seemed to me the same kind of stuff the Weasely twins created. Do you think it's just Harry exhibitting 20/20 hindsight? Alina. From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:24:06 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:24:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133259 I love "There's no need to call me 'sir,' Professor," but my favourite funny of the book isn't a line, it's the nicknames. "Cissy" alone had me cackling in glee, I now refuse to use the name "Narcissa" ever again. "Won-Won" was just icing on the cake. Brilliant! Alina. From maggieanndavies at yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:20:01 2005 From: maggieanndavies at yahoo.com (maggieanndavies) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:20:01 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > > I do have another theory that may or may not have been raised. The > posts are flying to quickly to keep up lol. But is there anyone else > out there wondering if in fact it was not Dumbledoor but someone else > who died? Maybe someone using polyjuice potion? Or maybe one of the > Charms that Lily was so well known for making everyone think it was > Dumbledoor? I had the strangest feeling about DD throughout most of this book. He just didn't seem quite like himself. The best example is when he is so annoyed that Harry hasn't gotten the memory from Slughorn. "...And you feel that you have exerted your best efforts in this matter, do you? That you have exercized all of your considerable ingenuity?..." {HBP, p428 U.S.} That paragraph sounded pretty Snapey to me. Also, DD was much more reckless with Harry's safety than he ever before. Letting him go to the cave? Forcing Harry get a memory from an unwilling teacher. It's all just not like DD. Although it certainly could be that DD finally stopped treating Harry like a child. Could part of LV's soul jumped into DD when he touched the black ring? I can't imagine that DD would be that stupid though. Or how about this...ala Sherry's Polyjuice theory. Snape and DD switched places. It would explain why Harry received such a light punishment for using Sectumsempra on Malfoy. Considering that he and Ron were nearly kicked out of Hogwarts for showing up late (OK, in a magicked muggle car, but it wasn't quite their fault) I would have thought Snape would have jumped up and down on DD's desk to have Harry expelled for using Dark magic. maggieanndavies From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jul 20 00:27:09 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:27:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD9A5D.5070703@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133261 nrenka wrote: > > Well, if we took Snape's opening speech in Potions as to show his > love for that subject, what about his opening speech in DADA? :) Er, that he loves the defence against the dark arts? ;-) > > So, here's the question: > > Where did James learn those curses from? > > The most obvious answer seems to be: he either saw them used on other > people, potentially himself and/or some of his friends. There's no > way that James would have gotten ahold of Snape's prized book. I'm not sure about that. I still insist that they were bullies, and that's such a typical bully thing to do - grab somebody's school bag, the books. Especially if they've noticed that Snape writes in the book in a secretive way, or seems to treasure it. > > It's the question of whether a memory can be tampered with or not, > and whether it's obvious when one has been. DD knows that Slugworth > has tampered, but is it possible that Snape did so as well, just more > skillfully? But it only makes sense if he wanted Harry to see the (modified) memory. I was never convinced that it was the case. > > I really wonder: is there, in the inherent morality of the > Potterverse, something inherenly wrong about using AK at all > whatsoever? I don't know. But with the discussion of how killing > someone can be used to shear off part of your soul, it's very > suggestive. Yes, but I believe there are some circumstances... I don't think Dumbledore had defeated Grindewald by smiling at him, for example. And the original argument was extremely naive: if your organisation wants to embed a mole within the enemy ranks, you want this mole to climb as high as he can. You can't say to him in the end: you've been very useful, but "way too much blood on your hands and you should pay for it". > > I'd really like to not believe in ESE!Snape. Same here. But I can't argue the Grand Plan theory with 100% conviction. > > But isn't it suggestive that by far the most parallel characters in > the book are Snape and young Tom Riddle? I would say the three of them are very parallel now: Harry, Tom Riddle and Snape. Irene -- Disclaimer: if the things in HBP are just what they seem, then Snape is on his way to the last circle of Hell, to take his rightful place between Judas and Brutus, and nothing to discuss. So I'm only arguing on the conditional probability of him not being ESE, and acting on Dumbledore's orders somehow. From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:27:00 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:27:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133262 The hat, the hat.... You know, ever since Arthur Weasley said, "Never trust anything if you can't see where it keeps its brain" I've never quite trusted the hat fully. I've always agreed with the things it's said, for lack of evidence otherwise, took its version of Hogwarts history at face value, nevertheless... It *did* want to put Harry in Slytherin after all. I just don't know if we can 100% trust it to be a "good" artefact. And you know, I don't think Voldemort would trust the Hat with a piece of his soul either, I would bet Nagini makes a far more controllable Horcrux than that hat, and she can locomote on her own! Alina. From rachel at phony-art.com Tue Jul 19 23:39:12 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:39:12 -0000 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > So if we are to agree that 4 Horcurxes are objects from the four > houses, a fifth is the gaunt ring and a sixth is Voldemort himself > that still leaves the seventh and final Horcrux missing... > > I'm putting my money on Harry at the moment. How about Nagini? I think she might have one, and he might not have anything from GG. Rachel From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:30:31 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:30:31 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. and the location of the Horcrux. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133264 Hey Ben, I agree with most of your points, but have some comments to make: >4. He was killed by Voldemort a few days after deserting the death eaters (HBP p103) We really don't know that Voldemort killed Regulus. They just say that Regulus survived a few days after deserting. Sirius even mentions in OotP (pg. 104) that Regulus was probably not killed by Voldemort himself. I believe that Regulus (whether or not he helped Voldemort hide the Horcrux, which I would think unlikely, but it's an interesting theory) somehow found out about the Horcrux and thought that it was the only one: after all, no wizard had even thought of making multiple prior to Voldemort. So he steals it and dies either by the potion (which seems to kill slowly, just like DD says to Harry it might. It surely seems to weaken DD gradually, just open the Astronomy Tower scene) or by some Death Eater tracking him down, confident that he has absconded the one thing that makes Voldemort immortal. >7. However it was rescued by Kreatcher, and is now residing in Kreatchers nest in the basement of 12 Grimmauld Place (OOTP, p445). That is of course one of the ruling theories, and one that will certainly occur to Harry once he finds out that RAB is Regulus. But wouldn't that make it a bit to easy? After all, he'd just have to go to Grimmauld Place (which he will do once he remembers the locket) and command Kreacher to give it to him. Isn't it much more likely that Mundungus stole it from the Black house along with lots of other stuff the Sirius tried to toss out? Why else did JKR remind us of Mundungus stealing Black-items twice in HBP? (In Hogsmeade and at the end when Hermione's reading the Prophet). For the rest I see eye to eye with you pretty much entirely. Anyway, these are just my theories. I'm curious what you think :) From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:31:59 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:31:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Horcruxes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133265 On 7/19/05, allthingshp wrote: > Since we have so so so long to wait for the next and final installment of the HP series I > though we might spend our time hypothesizing where the horcruxes might be (or who > might be holding on to them...) We know that Lucius had the diary and that the locket > should have been in the cave where Tom Riddle visited as a youth (do we know where DD > got the ring from? I can't remember now...) but where could the cup, Nagini, the real > locket and the something else (the scar! you all yell) be? And how might these locations > match up with characters we still need answers for? For example might wormtail > unbeknownst to himself be carrying the cup in that weird hideaway at Spinners End? What > about the Gaunt's old house? #12? I have no answers but I thought I'd see what you all > had to say! > > -allthingshp I just wanted to mention that yes, we do know where DD got the ring, he said he got it from Gaunt's old hovel, the ruins of it. With the locket's original resting place being the cave from Riddle's childhood, I would assume at least a few of the remaining horcrux's follow the pattern of being kept in locations that hold some "sentimental value" to Voldemort. Hogwarts is one of them, for those who believe that Harry or his scar (I vote scar) is a horcrux that would fit the pattern, wouldn't it? Perhaps there's one in the Dark Arts shop from Knockturn Alley (Burkin's? Too lazy to look it up). Alina. From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:34:40 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:34:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133266 On 7/19/05, Rachel wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > > So if we are to agree that 4 Horcurxes are objects from the four > > houses, a fifth is the gaunt ring and a sixth is Voldemort himself > > that still leaves the seventh and final Horcrux missing... > > > > I'm putting my money on Harry at the moment. > > > How about Nagini? I think she might have one, and he might not have anything from GG. > > Rachel > You're forgetting Riddle's diary, it was a Horcrux too, one that has already been destroyed. Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. It means that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. Alina. From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:37:56 2005 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:37:56 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: > The hat, the hat.... > > You know, ever since Arthur Weasley said, "Never trust anything if you > can't see where it keeps its brain" I've never quite trusted the hat > fully. > > I've always agreed with the things it's said, for lack of evidence > otherwise, took its version of Hogwarts history at face value, > nevertheless... There was a time when I didn't trust the Sorting Hat. The main reason is that I think the way students are sorted is a bad idea(not a logical reason, I know). But I decided that I loved the Sorting Hat in OotP. It basically said that it feared it would bring abou the end of Hogwarts. I never had a problem with it considering putting Harry in Slytherin. But then, I don't think Slytherin = evil. bibphile From azreial9621 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:22:28 2005 From: azreial9621 at yahoo.com (azreial9621) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:22:28 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "auntydle" wrote: > I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just > discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the > number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to > follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of > her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the > number of the platform? ...just wondering. I've been wondering this for quite awhile myself. The only thing I could come up with is that there are probably other platforms for wizards. Ex: platform 3 2/3 for wizarding blackpool or somesuch like that and Mrs Wealey having her hands and head full with all those children was just being absent minded, kinda like how you'll walk into your kitchen to get a drink and can't remember what you were doing Sheri From desastreuse at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:39:52 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:39:52 -0000 Subject: I never thought: Snape is good! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133269 Chris writes: > Harry: "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep > your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" (U.S. 603). I don't > see this line so much as taunting Harry as it is giving him > instruction. Don't forget Snape's "DON'T...CALL ME COWARD!" during this same scene. The key to the emotion here is the "pain" Harry ascribes to Snape at this point, the pain of a cornered and frightened animal (like Hagrid's dog in the burning hut). As I said in my first post today, Snape is responding to Harry's taunt in anguish over Harry's ignorance of the circumstances: Snape has just done the bravest, most painful thing he has ever done in killing DD. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:40:03 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:40:03 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133270 Cayres wrote: I thought the idea of the young Tom Riddle alone in the cave with the two kids was THE most frightening things in the books so far. Though the Inferi are a close second! I really, really, really don't think this book is appropriate for children under 11 or 12. vmonte responds: I agree with your thoughts. There were severl things in the book that were quite frightening to me as well. Tom Riddle in the cave with the children was very upsetting. And when I realized that there were inferi in the lake I almost closed the book. (Just how many people did he kill in that cave anyway?) The scene where Draco takes his shoe and smashes Harry's face, breaking his nose, and then covering him up and walking out of the train cabin freaked me out. Harry using the HBP's unforgivable curse on Draco made me sick. I'm not looking forward to seeing this scene in the movies. And finally, Dumbledore's murder was horrible. I on the other hand do not believe that Dumbledore was asking for it. Vivian From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:41:43 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:41:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers In-Reply-To: <20050719174124.GE9486@gesh.kejia> References: <15d.54ea17b0.300e8562@aol.com> <20050719174124.GE9486@gesh.kejia> Message-ID: <42DD9DC7.1070704@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133271 Avery Ke wrote: > Would Kreacher obey Harry if Regulus was still alive? Regulus living > would be a male in the direct line of the Black family, much closer > than his -- please correct me if I've mixed up the genealogy -- female > cousin Bella. > > Avery Regulus is dead. JKR has stated so unequivocally and more than once in interviews. No, I don't have the link, sorry, but she said something to the effect that "he hasn't been up to much lately, seeing as he's dead". Michelle From mirely at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 23:58:25 2005 From: mirely at comcast.net (Mirely) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:58:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ch. 2 Inconsistency - Snape is not evil! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD93A1.7030101@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133272 prncssme wrote: >There is a major inconsistency in what Snape tells Bella and 'Cissy > about DD's hand injury and what DD himself tells Harry! > Upon first reading of this line, my husband and I immediately >assumed that Snape was saying that the injury happened during >the MoM duel at the end of OotP. In fact, we had to re-read the >part where DD tells Harry about receiving the injury after destroying >the first Horcrux because we were confused. Snape appears to be >purposely misleading Bella (and us, consequentially) into thinking >that DD was hurt in the duel with LV. I don't think this is true. He clearly states that he was shook up with the duel at MOM and then states that since then he has sustained an injury. I don't think anyone but Harry knows that he was out looking for Horcruxes. There is no evidence in the book stating that Snape knew. No one really dared to question or ask DD what he was up to. Snape is a good potions maker and that is why DD continued to go to him for help. DD would only say enough and only what he wanted people to know. Nothing more or less. I won't judge Snape until book 7, until we have more to go on. It is truly up in the air when it comes to him. Mirely From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:41:38 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:41:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133273 > I never had a problem with it considering putting Harry in > Slytherin. But then, I don't think Slytherin = evil. > > bibphile > Sorry I didn't make myself clear there. I thought that maybe its attempt to put Harry in Slytherin can be used as some sort of canon proof that the Hat is an Horcrux already. Though it's probably better proof that Harry is one if anything. Alina. From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 00:42:49 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:42:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3dd850a69080a47ee6daece54785bc73@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133274 On Jul 19, 2005, at 9:29 AM, anthyroserain wrote: > "kjirstem" wrote: > > I may be entirely too > > suspicious, but for much of the book I was convinced that Tonks was > > someone else on Polyjuice... > > A decidedly bizarre thought: what if Tonks were in fact Pettigrew? He > has little to do in HBP, and her mousy appearance is mentioned > *several* times. > > No, I don't actually believe this is the case, but it seemed an > interesting idea. > > Katherine now: I really think that the only thing wrong with Tonks was unrequited love. She thanks Molly for "the tea and sympathy" back at the Burrow; Molly and Arthur quickly change the subject when they think that Harry will reveal the new Patronus conjured by Tonks. Basically, Harry is wrapped up in his own universe and doesn't bother to make himself aware of the drama between Tonks and Lupin. I don't think any convoluted polyjuice drinking plays into it at all. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:46:10 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:46:10 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, Harry the Horcrux + General Horcrux Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133275 Ha! You know, Arthur's quote concerning not trusting thinking things if you can't see their brains has been with me throughout the series. It's generally been a very solid piece of advice. However, I don't think Dumbledore would have let the Sorting Hat continue doing its thing if he had even a remote suspicion that the Hat had been hoodwinked. But this to me raises a number of very important questions about Horcruxes in general that we should consider: 1) In how far would the soul's personality be noticable when handling the item? We know the diary had Riddle's personality all over it, but I doubt that the ring did and I'm pretty sure nobody noticed anything weird when they were chucking out the locket from Sirius' house in OotP... 2a) How long after a death must the Horcrux-creation-spell be cast? 2b) How long does the Horcruxation-spell(tm) take to cast? 2c) How much preparation must have been done to the item in question before it is Horcruxified(tm)? 2d) Can Horcruxification be done non-verbally? 2e) Is physical contact with the item necessary? I'm going to assume that creating a Horcrux is a mind-bogglingly difficult thing to do, simply because of the rarity them and the way Slughorn, Riddle and Dumbledore were talking about them. These questions are important because the answers to any of these could disprove the theory of Harry the Horcrux immediately (short, long & long, no, yes - resp.) However, if the answers are favourable (long, short & short/na, yes, no - resp.) Riddle/Voldemort could have made the Hat into a Horcrux when he was sitting in Dumbledore's offce asking to be hired as a teacher. That would actually give us a reason as to why the heck he was there in the first place! I'm interested in these questions in any case (and might post them up as general musings in a seperate post later), but my point is basically this: If Harry could have been turned into a Horcrux (a theory I certainly do not subsribe to), so could the Sorting Hat. It just depends on a lot of factors that we don't know much about, yet... Thoughts? From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:50:47 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:50:47 -0000 Subject: Summary of why Snape's probably a Good Guy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133276 Hey all, This may well have been linked before, but I think this gives a pretty good summary of RAB, Dumbledore's Plan and the Good Snape-theory: http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html What do you think? From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:51:35 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720005135.92866.qmail@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133277 D. wrote: > > Have you notice > > there're many aspects of Snape's life mirror Tom Riddle's life? > > Maybe Tobias Snape was a poor, low class man if Snape's > > house was at muggle ghetto/industrial area. And Eileen > > lost her magic just like Tom's mother due to some distress, > > the glimpse into their family life isn't pretty (Snape's > > dad yelling at a cowering Eileen and crying Severus). > > > > So Snape had no money for new schoolbook but using > > Eileen's old school stuffs. Alina wrote: > Harry noticed that too, remember at the end of the book he himself > thinks of how Snape's life parallels Voldemort's and gladly latches on > to it as an extra reason to hate Snape (as if he needs an extra by > this point, after all, unlike many fans me included he doesn't think > DD was in on his own murder). In fact, he uses it as an example of > DD's fallibility. > "...he's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... > ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark > Arts, gave himself an impressive new name - *Lord* Voldemort - the > Half-Blood *Prince* - how could Dumbledore have missed -?" We also found out Voldemort's birthday was Jan 1st, also a Capricorn like Snape (Jan 9th), so both were the "Mid Winter, Saturn, tragic lost in young life" figure Trelawney mistaken Harry for in GOF. And of course both wanted to teach DADA. So what's the significant of Snape having disturbing similar background and upbringings as LV? The most obvious and straightfoward conclusion (as Harry did) was that "OMG Snape is the next Dark Lord!!!" Which doesn't make sense as 'obvious' and 'straightfoward' just don't sit well with JKR's writings for Snape. Personally I think part of the Lord Voldemort <-> Half-Blood Prince mirror purpose was the redemption for Dumbledore. Most of us only focus on Snape's side, but what about for DD? Maybe Dumbledore is redeeming his failing for Tom Riddle through Snape, but trusting him. Here we have another genius boy who most likely had a difficult upbringings and as damaged as Tom. He was lonely, friendless, bullied, nasty and a thirst to be recognize for his amazing talent and feeling special. When he switched side, DD taken Snape in as a second chance for *DD* himself, redeeming that *HUGE* mistake he had for not recognizing and doing anything to stop the corruption of Tom Riddle. That's why I think Snape is DD's man, he's loyal, making that diffcult moral choice to do the *RIGHT* thing. DD is right in his trust, he redeem himself through Snape. > One thing I find interesting. Right after the abovecited paragraph, > Harry goes on to think how he himself was taken in by the HBP "in > spite of the increasing nastiness of those scribbled spells..." It > made me wonder, because I didn't notice any increasing nastiness > really. Up until Sectumsempra, all of the non-potions improvement > spells seemed to me the same kind of stuff the Weasely twins created. > Do you think it's just Harry exhibitting 20/20 hindsight? I didn't notice any increasing nastiness either, except the BANG with Sectumsempra. It's probably another case of JKR's lazy (and somewhat cheating) writing style, she kept rely on 'telling' by inserting Hermione's warning dislike of the Prince and noting him "not-so-nice", but as a reader I don't see how she came to that conclusion. D. From fiscused at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:33:21 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:33:21 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: <20050719210301.GP9486@gesh.kejia> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133278 "Shut your mouth!" bellowed Ron, bypassing red and turning maroon. I think Ron gets the best lines!! I also laughed at all Harry's daydreams. Nev From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:55:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:55:41 -0000 Subject: Change in Patronis/ Tonks in HBP/ In-Reply-To: <3dd850a69080a47ee6daece54785bc73@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > Molly and Arthur quickly change the subject when they think that Harry will reveal the new Patronus conjured by Tonks. > > Basically, Harry is wrapped up in his own universe and doesn't bother > to make himself aware of the drama between Tonks and Lupin. I don't > think any convoluted polyjuice drinking plays into it at all. Tonks: I too thought that Tonks was someone else for most of the book. Except she saved Harry in the train. Course, if she were someone else that could be because she was saving him for LV. But I think that the interesting thing here, the new idea that was introduced was that one's Patronis can change. Did JKR tell us that so we will not be surprised when Harry's changes in the next books?? A phoenix perhaps?? Tonks_op From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 00:58:49 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:58:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133280 WARNING! SPOILERS FOR BOTH LOTR AND HBP * * * * * * We have: 1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring 2. Evil giant spiders 3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; Dead Marshes in LOTR) 4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) 5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) 6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) 7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past (Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). 8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; C'ent'aurs in HP) Any others I've missed? Not that I think JKR is copying (she's most definitely not....) but what are the odds we'll see Dumbledore resurrected in some form? Katherine From maidne at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:00:28 2005 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:00:28 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw Relic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133281 I'm thinking that maybe Harry will go to Hogwarts next year, whether as a student or not, to interview the ghost of Ravenclaw about what relic of hers V'mort may have used as a horcrux. Somewhere in HBP I remember reading about a ghost of a woman with long hair walking past Harry, and thought at the time that it was probably Rowena Ravenclaw. Susan From mysticowl at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:00:17 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:00:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My thoughts on the Horcrux's In-Reply-To: <44abkh$121a65q@mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <1121811512.2152.76620.m11@yahoogroups.com> <44abkh$121a65q@mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133282 > Cathy: > I think something we're forgetting is that Voldemort died, destroying one of > the 7 pieces of his soul. Therefore there are only 2 left to find, assuming > that he wasn't trying to make one when he tried to kill Harry (not make > Harry one). > Cathy, I think you misunderstand how Horcruxes work. When it says that Voldemort split his soul into seven pieces it means there are six Horcruxes plus Voldemort himself. When the AK rebound, it's not as if Voldemort died and one of the Horcruxes spontaneously became a new soul for him. What happened is that his body died, but the soul within it remained "alive." The number of Horcruxes did not diminish, they just served as an ancor for the soul within the body. The diary and the ring are destroyed, there are four left to find, one of which is the Slytherin locket for sure. Alina. From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:05:28 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:05:28 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Alina wrote: > > I never had a problem with it considering putting Harry in > > Slytherin. But then, I don't think Slytherin = evil. > > > > bibphile > > > Sorry I didn't make myself clear there. I thought that maybe its > attempt to put Harry in Slytherin can be used as some sort of canon > proof that the Hat is an Horcrux already. Though it's probably better > proof that Harry is one if anything. > > Alina. Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with Bibphile here and say that I'm not too bothered by the hat wanting to put Harry in Slytherin. I think Dumbledore himself probably gave the best explanation of that: "'Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue ... resourcefulness ... determination ... a certain disregard for rules,' he added, his moustache quivering again 'Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know what that was. Think.'" (CoS p.245) I think that entire scene goes to introduce one of the most important themes throughout the entire series (which returns quite strongly with young Malfoy near the end of book 6): "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (or backgrounds, as Dumbledore proves by his correct trust of Snape, Lupin and Hagrid, to name a few). My 2 cents. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:12:03 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:12:03 -0000 Subject: DUMBLEDORE MADE ME DO IT! I SWEAR! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133284 Tonks: 2. I think that Snape is still working for DD. IMO Snape told DD about the vow and they are trying to keep Draco from becoming a killer. They are trying to save his soul, while they still can. I was very surprised to see that Draco didn't have it in him to kill. Maybe he is the good Slytherin you all are looking for. Also I think that Snape might have some *special* feelings for Narcissus. He seemed very happy to see her. And she really loves her son. Are we sure that she is a DE herself. Yes, her husband is and her sister is, but maybe she isn't??? Do all those that agree with or follow LV become DE?? I can't remember if it says in other books that she is a DE. vmonte responds: So, the idea is that Dumbledore is trying to save Draco's soul and when he sees Snape he pleads with him via legimens/occlumens (whichever applies) to strike him down for Draco's sake? Why not just have Snape grab Draco by the scruff of his collar and drag his ass into hiding instead. Then get his mother and ship them off together (who cares what Draco says--I mean your still keeping him from doing something that is wrong--right? Isn't he going to be in worse trouble in book 7 when Voldemort finds out that he was incapable of completing his mission?). So, instead, Dumbledore says: "I'm dying anyway, the best thing for you to do would be to kill me Snape---pleeeeease. I realize that I've not given you the job of DADA because I was afraid that you might go back to the dark side (and start killing again) but you know what? Forget what I said. JUST DO IT---PLEEEEASE." Doesn't it make more sense that Snape was forced to kill Dumbledore because he made a pact with Narcissa to finish the mission Voldemort set for Draco if Draco wasn't able to do it. If Snape did not kill Dumbledore, Snape would die no? Wasn't that the pact? It seems more in character to me that Snape felt he had to kill Dumbledore because there was no way he was going to die because of Draco's cowardice. I mean Snape evens shoves Draco aside as he walks up to kill Dumbledore. He shows no tender compassion for Draco's struggle. Snape is not the kind of guy that would die for anyone---JMO. I'm betting that Snape had no idea what Draco's mission was at first. And that he just assumed, incorrectly, that Draco was supposed to kill Harry. I could see Snape willingly go into that kind of pact with someone. It's not until later that he realizes that Dumbledore is the target. When he sees that Draco cannot kill he only thing he can do is kill Dumbledore, grab Draco, and run the hell out of there before anyone realizes what he has done. Vivian From desastreuse at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:11:26 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:11:26 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133285 Rowling said once, "There is more to the Sorting Hat than what you have read about in the first three books. Readers will find out what the Sorting Hat becomes as they get into future books." Since GOF, OOP, and HBP haven't really helped us much with this, perhaps we can safely assume that we'll find out more in Book 7. desastreuse From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:17:47 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:17:47 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > WARNING! SPOILERS FOR BOTH LOTR AND HBP > > * > * > * > * > * > * > **snip** > Any others I've missed? > > Not that I think JKR is copying (she's most definitely not....) but > what are the odds we'll see Dumbledore resurrected in some form? > > > Katherine doddie here: I thought there was word play during Luna's quidditch commentary.. HPB U.S. Ch. 19 Pg. 414 "...I can't remember his name, it's something like Bibble--no, Buggins.." Sounded like Bilbo Baggins to me and then there Slugworth/Hagrid singing about poor Odo made me think of "Frodo" teehee Doddiemoemoe From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:18:12 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat, a Forgotten Relic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720011812.67423.qmail@web54701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133287 I never had a problem with it considering putting Harry in Slytherin. But then, I don't think Slytherin = evil. bibphile My reply: I think that was part of the message of this particular book in general actually that Slytherins aren't evil. There are good Slytherins, and ambiguous ones as well. I'm not just talking about Slughorn...I would say that Blaise Zambini is someone who isn't neccessarily an evil person in the wizarding world. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tallcarabians at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 20 01:08:37 2005 From: tallcarabians at sbcglobal.net (Rae Callaway) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:08:37 -0500 Subject: A Possible Error in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133288 Jim wrote: > With Sirius dead, Harry has no permission to go to Hogsmeade. > Obviously there's reasonable explanations around this, but > none are ever stated in the book (unless I just totally > missed it). Perhaps after death a document of that nature > is still valid in the wizarding world. But, won't Harry be of age next year? If 17 is considered adult in the wizarding world, I can't see that Harry would still need permission to go to Hogsmead. Rae From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:21:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:21:25 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > WARNING! SPOILERS FOR BOTH LOTR AND HBP > > * > * > * > * > * > * > > We have: > > 1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring > 2. Evil giant spiders > 3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; > Dead Marshes in LOTR) > 4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the > leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) > 5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) > 6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) > 7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past > (Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). > 8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; > C'ent'aurs in HP) > > Any others I've missed? > > Not that I think JKR is copying (she's most definitely not....) but > what are the odds we'll see Dumbledore resurrected in some form? vmonte: How about Gollum = Snape Vivian From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:24:03 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:24:03 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133290 How about Wormtail as Gollum? A bad guy that gets spared by a good guy. This act of sparing leads to all hell breaking loose (Gollum looking for the ring leads to Sauron finding out about its continued existance and wherabouts, whereas Wormtail being spared leads to Sirius' continued renegade-ness and Voldemort's resurrection) but we are told by the Wise Mentor (Dumbledore/Gandalf) that this noble thing to do will reap good results in the end. Gollum, obviously, casts the One Ring into Mt. Doom when Frodo is unable. Quite an unintentional bit of nobility, but one nonetheless. Wormtail still has to shine, but Dumbledore certainly says "Trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life" Thoughts? From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:29:22 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dallas Theory - Shipping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720012922.92294.qmail@web54702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133291 brwniel wrote: 1. H/Hr fans are upset, some so greatly that they claim to have given up on the HP series. My reply: In defense of Harry and Hermione fans everywhere umm no most of did not do that. Perhaps some of us did..but quite frankly I think the ships are still pretty much open and I could care less how the book indicated. I do think that Harry and Ginny were poorly written that is my view I have said it in chat and was pretty much laughed at but oh well..it's just how I feel. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From desastreuse at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:31:40 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:31:40 -0000 Subject: Summary of why Snape's probably a Good Guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133292 Alon writes: > This may well have been linked before, but I think this gives a pretty > good summary of RAB, Dumbledore's Plan and the Good Snape-theory: > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html > > What do you think? I think it's brilliant. I had overlooked the "gaze" he alludes to in the scene with Snape & DD in the tower. I makes perfect sense that they are communicating with one another. Geez, it's going to be a long few years.... desastreuse From deatheaterjames at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 01:15:20 2005 From: deatheaterjames at yahoo.co.uk (deatheaterjames) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:15:20 -0000 Subject: Snape Bad? Dumbledore would have died anyway. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133293 Where Snape is good or evil Dumbledore was about to be killed. Wandless and weakened he was surrounded by Death Eaters. Let's first assume Snape is bad as all the signs point to this. I really think the line where he looks at DD in disgust is the strongest piece of evidence after the AK. Also DD pleads with Snape in a voice that frightens Harry. Now if Snape is evil and joined with his Death Eaters in front of his enemy DD for the last time it is likely he was not using Occlumency and DD read Snape's true feeling and this caused DD to plead with Snape. Obviously the readiness to into the unbreakable vow is more evidence, despite certain hand twitching at moments. Also Hagrid mentioning there being friction between DD and Snape is also v. shaky evidence to the Bad Snape Theory. Not totally convinced, probably because of these ideas. Now there are many reasons why Snape may still be good: firstly, it's another twist in the story for JKR to wow her readers in a Sirius Blackesque fashion. And I am certain that we will have a definte answer in the 7th book on what side Snape is on, probably I think regarding the circumstances of his death. Secondly, if Snape did not AK DD another Death Eater would have. He was surrounded defenceless and about to be killed. I think the manner in which Snape killed DD is merciful. If Snape had not killed DD quick the Death Eaters could have used cruciatus or any other demeaning spell that Snape would not let DD endure. Also there is the matter of the unbreakable vow, perhaps if Snape did not kill DD he would then die and then DD would be killed making Snape's death pointless. Perhaps Snape has been foolish in making the vow but I'm sure he did not think Dumbledore would ever be so vulnerable, after all the spell that really ended DD was "expelliarmus". Also some shrewd calculations would show that saving DD's life and then losing a deep under cover mole was not worth it, certainly if both would happen. The leader of the Order of the Phoenix would be dead and their top man in the enemy camp exposed and also dead most likely. This way if Snape is good he will be the closest to LV and will most likely be privy to much information (Horcruxes?) Also the "DON'T... CALL ME A COWARD" line could be seen as Snape angry at being called spineless after having to kill someone who to him, and everyone else (character or reader), is a real father figure, all in the name of good. I also believe that Snape and Dumbledore's argument that Hagrid talks about may be a red herring and be more along the lines of DD telling Snape that he will have to kill DD when the time comes - Snape not wanting any part in this etc - as Malfoy will obviously fail. Well those are my arguments, but I think the best way to decide on the two is what makes the best story. I think going into Book 7 we now have two nemeses really, and that's too many. I think Snape will turn back over, remorseful of it all, just when LV trusts him implicitly. James From alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:36:11 2005 From: alanphoenix1 at hotmail.com (Alon van Dam) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:36:11 -0000 Subject: Summary of why Snape's probably a Good Guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133294 > I think it's brilliant. I had overlooked the "gaze" he alludes to in > the scene with Snape & DD in the tower. I makes perfect sense that > they are communicating with one another. > > Geez, it's going to be a long few years.... > > desastreuse Yeah, I overlooked that too. Also, one of my only problems was Snape's look of hatred and revulsion upon killing Dumbledore, so I was quite convinced when the writer of that article linked to Harry force-feeding potion to DD and his very own hatred and revulsion, which seem a carbon- copy of Snape's. What can I say? They're both Dumbledore's men through and through! About the wait: Oh, you bet... And I thought these last two years were long already :-s From erikog at one.net Wed Jul 20 01:00:10 2005 From: erikog at one.net (Krista7) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:00:10 -0000 Subject: Question, re: HBP and when Harry first comes to school... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133295 I don't have my copy of HBP with me (sister stole it!), but has anybody figured out yet/was it explained why my man Snape greeted Harry at the fence, rather than Hagrid? I remember vaguely there's a point in the text where Harry realizes Snape's story of why he came, vs. Hagrid, seems problematic-- something like Hagrid was running late (when he wasn't). I'd like to check the scene to see if there's a specific reason, other than to snark on Harry, that Snape would escort Harry inside. I remember when I read it initially I made a note to go back and check that scene, because it seemed odd. Krista (whose father's mother did indeed have the maiden name Prince, but my chem grades from ages ago, sadly, would indicate I am not related to the Potions Master) From juicyfruit3797 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:32:58 2005 From: juicyfruit3797 at yahoo.com (juicyfruit3797) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:32:58 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133296 Can someone please tell me why Snape's potions book could not be one of the horcruxes? "juicyfruit3797" From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jul 20 01:45:40 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:45:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The remaining Horcruxes References: <1121821254.6221.8287.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c58ccc$c68948b0$c285cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 133297 Rachel wrote: >> How about Nagini? I think she might have one, and he might not have >> anything from GG. >> >> Rachel Then Alina wrote: > You're forgetting Riddle's diary, it was a Horcrux too, one that has > already been destroyed. > > Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. It means > that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. And now Richelle: Unless Dumbledore was wrong, the only item that belonged to Gryffindor is safely in his office--the sword. (Though what about the Sorting Hat?) According to Dumbledore, the 7 parts of Voldemort's soul are in: 1. Riddle's Diary (destroyed) 2. Slytherin's ring (destroyed) 3. Slytherin's locket (missing, possibly in Grimmauld Place) 4. Hufflepuff's Cup (goodness knows where) 5. An item that was either Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's (if there's an unknown out there somewhere) 6. Nagini 7. Voldemort himself The first two are taken care of, the third could be the easiest, if it's really the locket in Grimmauld Place. The fourth is difficult because, unless I missed it, there's no clue as to where it is. The fifth, well, we don't even know _what_ is, let alone where it is (unless it ends up being in Harry in some strange way, but every time I think that's possible I find a dozen more reasons it can't be). The sixth and seventh should be near each other, and the last to destroy. Problem is, how is a Horcrux destroyed anyway? Dumbledore never explained that. Hermione's already checked in books, it's not there. Sure, Harry managed to inadvertantly destroy the one in Riddle's Diary, but it's not like he'll have a Basilisk fang handy to stab the others with. The only thing I can figure out is that Dumbledore could've left Harry his Pensieve with the memory of how he destroyed the Horcrux in the ring. Richelle From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:51:49 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:51:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133298 Guys, I can't say I'm convinced either way but several things just don't add up, and its not just the shipping. Lots of people act out of character and many things don't add up. Things just are not what they seem. Even Hermione and Ron's reaction to hearing the prophecy is entirely off-kilter. Remember that the sixth task in PS/SS also had to do with potions and solving a riddle. I think there's a clue there. Many people seem not to be themselves and I wouldn't be surprised if it had as much to do with Snape, breeding Dementors, horcruxes (and the possibility of Ginny being one) as it has to do with love potions. And I must say, that I think there are startling similarities between Harry's infatuation with Ginny and Ron's infatuation with Lavendar. Not being able to stop thinking about her, reacting with violent anger at the thought of someone else with her, acting automatically on instinct, the `monster' in his chest. I think there is something more here than just wishful thinking. I really do. Otherwise, I would have to accept that Rowling has lost her touch and was unable to deliver realistic romantic scenarios (even if they did have to involve Harry/ Ginny). I think Rowling might have been having a go at ALL the ships in this one actually and if this is right, then she is capable of a subtlety that I cannot help but admire. Something to think about. Sienna From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:52:24 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:52:24 -0000 Subject: HBP Thoughts, Snape, Likes and Dislikes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133299 Marianne wrote: On the other hand, Dumbledore made some sort of comment about his own cleverness and intelligence, at least 3 times, IIRC. And that, since he was so clever, his mistakes were consequently bigger than the average person's. Add that to the continued insistence that Snape was to be trusted, and I can believe that the big BANG here was that DD did make a monumental mistake in trusting Snape. The pleading tone of "Severus please" might then have been a plea such as "Severus, please don't repay the trust I've placed in you by this betrayal." We'll hash this to death, I'm sure over the next few years, so enough about Snape for now. vmonte responds: Mugglenet HBP Interview ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes. [Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree. ES: How can someone so - JKR: Intelligent - ES: be so blind with regard to certain things? JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He's always the one who gives, he's always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that. ES: No, that was a good answer. vmonte: There are a few clues though to Snape's personality. He is very clever. He has the ability to talk himself out of anything. He has both Voldemort and Dumbledore believing that he is on their side. In temperament though he is more like Voldemort than Dumbledore: He mistreats those he feels are beneath him He has delusions of grandeur He changes his name: like Tom Riddle and creates a new persona for himself--he reinvents himself: TA DAH I'm the Half-Blood-Prince He does not really have any friends and seems to prefer it that way He is obsessed with the dark arts--he even invents more killing curses (nice hobby) He is rather sadistic and enjoys manipulating people with his words He is a racist even though he is not a pure-blood He came from an unhappy or neglected childhood He holds grudges (the grudges are even against the children of the people he hates) He is emotionally stunted He has probably killed several (many?) people since he was once a DE He is so scary when he kills Dumbledore that even the baby eating werewolf steps away from him in fear---LOL! Didn't JKR once say that children are never fooled by this kind of teacher... Maybe Harry is right! Marianne Things I didn't like: Dumbledore's stated reason for accepting Snape's remorse for his DE past. I mean, are you kidding??? Giving people second chances is all well and good, but this was way too weak. Unless, as I suspect, Dumbledore gave only part of the reason why he trusted Snape. vmonte: I think that Snape proved his loyalty to Dumbledore by giving Lily the spell she used to save Harry's life. (Of course he also told Voldemort not to kill Lily but Voldy always underestimates silly little girls.) Vivian From katya_de_leon at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:41:50 2005 From: katya_de_leon at yahoo.com (jade_silverwind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:41:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper/ RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133300 The original is too long to , so forgive me for not doing so. (This is my first post, after all). I'm been thinking about the same thing. However, the Charm in question has only been used in the books twice. Dumbledore was secret keeper for the Order, and Peter (originally to be Sirus) was secret keeper for the Potters. If you remember the argument (I believe in the shreaking shack) between Peter, Sirus, and Lupin, Sirus mentions that he would have died rather than reveal the secret and Peter should have been prepared to do so as well. (Sorry for not finding the canon page #s). To me, this would imply that the secret dies with the secret keeper. It isn't like the members of the Order still can't get into the place, just that nobody else can tell who anyone else. I would have to agree with the other person that to some extent, there has to be a termination of this spell so that it doesn't last indefinetly. There are parts to this spell that we will never know unless JKR decides to enlighten us. On another note, I also happen to think that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. The note, if you remember, was written not to "Voldemort" but to "The Dark Lord". Only his DE called him that. And the note also implys that this person has turned on the Dark Lord as he is now attempting to destroy the horcrux. Regulus Black fits both requirements. He was a DE until he had a change of heart and because of that, he was killed. My other thought about this was wondering how many DE know about his horcrux's. Malfoy was given Riddle's diary. How many know how many he has, what they are, and where they are hidden? I also looked up in book 5 and although a locket nobody can open is mentioned in the drawing room, it was not mentioned as one of the items that Kreacher had in his "room". So, is the locket still at #12 GP? Did Kreacher take it, or perhaps Mandungus (now in Azkaban)? Or was it thrown away as they were cleaning up the room? (That were most certainly make it the hardest to find). ~Kate From arolls at igc.org Wed Jul 20 01:42:09 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:42:09 -0000 Subject: The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers In-Reply-To: <42DD9DC7.1070704@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133301 Michelle Crowe wrote: > Regulus is dead. JKR has stated so unequivocally and more than > once in interviews. No, I don't have the link, sorry, but she > said something to the effect that "he hasn't been up to much > lately, seeing as he's dead". Well, that blows my theory that secretly saving Regulus's life is what indebted Snape to Dumbledore. I really liked the idea of Regulus as the new Sirius! But it does seem pretty clear that whoever RAB is, he or she knew (knows) about the prophecy, since there is a reference to Voldy "meeting his match." And probably had an accomplice (as did Dumbledore) who may still be at large. Back to the drawing board.... -allison From rebekahid at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 01:48:18 2005 From: rebekahid at comcast.net (Bekki) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:48:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133302 I hope this isn't already being discussed; I searched. The way Snape treated Neville in Potions class in the past books always broke my heart. In HBP, we learned Snape was the Deatheater that overheard part of the prophecy. Could Snape's torment of Neville be based not only on Neville's Potions troubles but on: a) a general digust at the apparent ineptness of the boy who might have been "The Chosen One"? b) regret that he did not try to convince Voldemort to go after Neville so that Lily would not be endangered? Of course, I am making huge presumptions that Snape hasn't always been completely evil and devoted to Voldemort and, in b, that he felt some sort of esteem towards Lily. I was very amused to read about the "CHOP" and "PASHMINAS" theories at Hypothetic Alley yesterday. Bekki From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 02:05:22 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:05:22 -0000 Subject: The DADA Position will bring out the worst in him... HBP Spoilers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133303 I think I get that now... I do actually think I get it... The answer is... The DADA position *was* cursed! Anyone taking it wouldn't last longer than a year at Hogwarts. If DD didn't want to give it to Snape couldn't it be because doing so would be tantamount to abandoning him? Oh yeah young Sevvie and I have a great relationship of trust, He's really a good guy deep down he has some old skeletons in his closet that haunt him, but I like him... he trusts me I trust him.. Now just to prove it I'll as good as fire him permanently and give him the DADA position... DOH! The DADA position is a Goodbye, so Long, thanks for the memories, go find another job *if you can get around your criminal record*. Snape is a brilliant Professor of magical sciences, he experiments he invents, he gets bored easily... I don't think it was teaching DADA that DD thought ould bring out the wort in Snape, I think actually is the thought of him unemployed and friendless apart from old DE chums.. Valky Also unable to resisit mentioning that Snape invented the deadly Sectumsempra curse when he was a young boy, and hence at this time only *he* knew how to save a victim of it.... Pensieve!James debate anyone.. From katya_de_leon at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 01:55:22 2005 From: katya_de_leon at yahoo.com (jade_silverwind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:55:22 -0000 Subject: New leader of the Order (Snape with Fawkes?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133304 Forgive me if anyone has replied to this already. There are so many posts on here today that I'm having trouble keeping up. My thoughts on Fawkes, since JKR did state that we'd see more of him and made a point of saying that he belonged to Dumbledore not Hogwarts was that perhaps Harry would inherit him when Dumbledore's will is ready. After all, Fawkes has come to his aid due to his loyalty to Dumbledore twice now. Maybe Fawkes will show up again msyteriuosly like he did before with the sorting hat and the Gryfindor Sword. What if Fawkes, Buckbeak and Dobby helped Ron, Harry and Hermoine go after the Horcruxes? And it is Harry, after all, who has Fawke's tail feather in his wand. And I did like another person's theory posted previously today (sorry, can't remember who or the post #) that suggested that Ollivander was kidnapped to make a new wand specially for Voldemort so that he and Harry don't get the same strange wand reaction that happened in the end of GOF. Makes alot of sense. Anyway, it's my opinion that Fawkes, if owned by anybody, is more likely to go to Harry than to Snape. ~Kate From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 02:16:10 2005 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:16:10 -0000 Subject: What about Harry's Soul? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133305 I just wanted to possibly point out that, as alarming as it may be that Harry might be the last of Voldemort's Horcruxes, does that necessarily mean that Harry must die to destroy that sliver of Voldemort that resides within him? After all, that is only a sliver of Voldemort's soul - but Harry has a complete soul of his own. Couldn't there be more than one way to remove a sliver of soul without the person dying to do it? Even when a dementor performs the "kiss", thus removing the whole soul, the person continues to exist (horribly hollow, yes - but they continue to exist) What if a person had more than one soul contained within? Then what? From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:21:45 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "I take you with me on one conditions that you obey any command I might give you at once, without quesiton." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720022145.91504.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133306 First I just want to say that I can't believe I am writing a pro-Snape post but I am. I like him better now than I ever did before HPB :). I think that above quote which appears on page 550 of the American edition is basically the same agreement that Snape and Dumbledore had. It was discussed that a time may come when he would have to kill him, in order to save the lives of innocents or to keep an innocent from becomming a killer. He was protecting a child's soul at this point. He couldn't ask anyone else to do it he needed someone who had it in them to kill. The only person who I can safely say is a killer would possibly Snape and that is why Dumledore needed him and asked him to do this. And before you guys go and call me crazy remember he had already asked for Snape prior to this event. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jul 20 02:06:33 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:06:33 -0700 Subject: Horcruxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DDB1A9.7060807@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133307 juicyfruit3797 wrote: >Can someone please tell me why Snape's potions book could not >be one of the horcruxes? Because it was Snape's, not Voldemort's. Not to mention the book might not seem 'worthy' to Voldemort. Voldemort's ego would not accept the use of some schoolbook that was not even his. He might not even know it exists unless he was teaching at Hogwarts, which he never was allowed to. How would he have gotten it from Hogwarts anyways? Jazmyn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:37:44 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:37:44 -0000 Subject: What about Harry's Soul? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > After all, that is only a sliver of Voldemort's soul - but Harry has a complete soul of his own. > > Couldn't there be more than one way to remove a sliver of soul without the person dying to do it? Even when a dementor performs the "kiss", thus removing the whole soul, (Snip) What if a person had more than one soul contained within? Then what? Tonks: Hum... so you think that Harry should... what is the word... snog (just a little bit) with a dementor?? lol... Interesting idea. What about the fact that Harry's blood in now in LV? I wish that DD had explained that to Harry before he died. It must be important. All in all, I don't know if we can really ever guess what JKR has in mind. She, much to my amazement, given the collective wisdom of this group, still manages to outwit and surprise us time and time again. It just boggles the mind. Tonks From JHodges1975 at msn.com Wed Jul 20 02:16:41 2005 From: JHodges1975 at msn.com (Jamie Hodges) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:16:41 -0500 Subject: Funniest Line Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133309 I thought that the funniest line in the book was the one where Mr. Weasley asked Mrs. Weasley her secret question. I think that it is one of the funniest out of all the books. Also did anyone else notice when Slughorn called Ron, Rupert? Jamie H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 02:42:39 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:42:39 -0000 Subject: Questions about 12 GP and General Thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133310 First, I am enjoying reading the posts regarding Snape being order by DD to AK him... It's easing some of the pangs of loss... Brilliant theory if it turns out to be true. At first however, it was hard to contain my complete hatred toward Snape at that moment, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The romantic connections made in HBP really did a lot to lighten what was otherwise a very serious book overall. I love how Harry has now become an aggressor when it comes to girls as opposed to his romantic life in OOP. Harry & Ginny Forever! :) He's growing up, and in many ways. Harry is truly amazing in the ways that he can care for Ginny and show affection seeing as he received no affection or love growing up. Perhaps the most emotional line for me of the book was when DD said to Harry that he was not afraid because... "I am with you." *sniff, sniff* I needed to actually stop reading for a moment or two after this line and retrieve my kleenex. I haven't had a line that hit me so strongly since PoA when Sirius tells Harry, "You are truly your father's son." Regarding 12 GP... Now that DD is no longer with us, and he was the secret keeper for the order, what will happen? Is the charm broken (like Harry's body bind) or will no new people be able to know about the headquarters. Should a new charm be done, possibly with Harry being the secret keeper this time? grindie From maidne at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:47:24 2005 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:47:24 -0000 Subject: What we didn't find out ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133311 I thought we were going to find out about someone who does magic late in life. Maybe that is still to come, though. And I for one am still not satisfied with what we have found out about Lily so far. I want to know more! Susan From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:49:36 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:49:36 -0000 Subject: The Case Against Snape (Combined response -- long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133312 In keeping with the List Elves' request, I am responding to the numerous points people have raised in one post. (Actually, one post is all I have left, since I've already used up two of my alloted portion!) I will have to paraphrase to keep it brief, but will include the message numbers of the original posts for those who want to look them up. On to it -- On the matter of Snape's participation in the muggle torture at the Qudditch world cup, Stephanie (message 133057) points out that the levicorpus curse was very popular at one time and that anyone could have cast it at the world cup. Very true. But within the logic of the story this is one of Snape's signature curses, and to have it performed at the World Cup by an anonymous DE is exactly the kind of clue that JKR plants so that we can later go Aha! It could theoretically be anyone but it makes much more sense for the structure of the story if it is Snape. I realize this would not stand up as evidence in a court of law. It just makes sense to me, based on past experience with JKR's carefully planted clues. (By the way, Jemima (133046) it could not have been Barty Crouch Jr. because he was trying to get away from Winky at the time. Besides, he hated Death Eaters who went free, remember? He would not be hanging out with them.) Stephanie further points out that Snape might feel obligated to participate in DE activities such as the World Cup rampage so as not to blow his cover. Also very true; he might feel obliged to participate, but there's no need flip Mrs. Roberts. That's going above and beyond what is required to maintain his cover. And it fits with the kind of gratuitous cruelty he routinely demonstrates toward students at Hogwarts. Another indication that the flipping DE is Snape. Gregal (133073) says: "The only reason Snape wouldn't tell Dumbledore that Pettigrew was the spy and Sirius wasn't is because he's still a loyal DE." Of course that's assuming Snape knew about Pettigrew spying on the Potters, but he seems to be pretty close to LV and it makes sense that he would know, especially since he was the one who conveyed the prophecy to LV that started the whole chain of events. So, yes, one more strike against him. About casting the AK curse -- needing to mean it --and the role of hatred. The responses really made me think hard about this. Jemima argued that Snape could have used his hatred of LV to fuel the curse against DD -- any hatred will do. But I can't see how you could use hatred for one person to fuel a curse against another for whom you felt no hatred, or even felt love. I don't see how the emotions could transfer like that. But it does raise the question of what kind of hatred is required to successfully cast an AK curse. Because I do think you need to hate someone to kill them like this. The question is, how personal does the hatred have to be? Salit (133176) points out that Pettigrew killed Cedric and LV killed Frank Bryce without even knowing them. True enough. But there is a kind of generic hatred and contempt for others -- especially the weak and vulnerable -- that is is part and parcel of being a Death Eater. Snape demonstrates this contempt in his treatment of Neville and other vulnerable students. It's beyond just an emotion, it's a mode of being. On reflection, I've concluded this mode must be the key to the Unforgivables, and this is why non Death Eaters cannot cast these curses. Stephanie, I think you are onto something when you say that Snape's hatred and revulsion may be self directed. I think self-loathing may be at the root of why Snape killed Dumbledore, the only person who offered him forgiveness and unconditional love. If you really hate yourself, being loved is unbearable, and the natural impulse is to strike at the one who loves you. If Snape has been forcing himself to contain this impulse for years, no wonder it explodes with such force when he finally has the chance to express it. A number of people in various threads have argued that Dumbledore in death did not resemble a typical untouched AK victim. But we really don't know what someone should look like after they have swallowed an ocean of toxic potion, been AK-d and then fallen from a high tower. Not too good, I reckon. It reminds me of the Celtic legend of the threefold death. I just reread the final confrontation between Harry and Snape as Snape is fleeing Hogwarts. This is not man who feels a shred of regret or remorse. This is a man exulting in triumph, a man who is finally free to be himself -- a monster. A complete and unredeemable monster? Well, that's the one question about Snape that still remains, at least in my mind. All the other questions have been answered. As some have pointed out already, if you read between the lines of JKR's interview with Mugglenet, especially her comments on Dumbledore, it really does sound like DD was fatally wrong about Snape. If you haven't read it yet, you can find it here: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml It's been a long day and I'm sure I haven't covered everything but I better wrap this up before my head hits the keyboard :-) If you've read this far, thanks for sticking it out with this very long post. Inkling From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jul 20 02:51:47 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:51:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny References: <410-22005721917239921@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00b701c58cd5$f88ba070$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> No: HPFGUIDX 133313 Chancie wrote: Perhaps one BIG fact that you seem to have over looked, is that we've seen how Love Potion effects people. Look at Ron's obsession with Romalda Vane. He was crazed, and could not help himself. Joj writes: Yes, but remember, we know that this was an old potion and therefore too strong. Why do this, and not show us Ron having a normal reaction? So we don't recognize the real reaction? Sienna wrote: Otherwise, I would have to accept that Rowling has lost her touch and was unable to deliver realistic romantic scenarios (even if they did have to involve Harry/ Ginny). I think Rowling might have been having a go at ALL the ships in this one actually and if this is right, then she is capable of a subtlety that I cannot help but admire. Joj writes: If this theory were true though, we'd have to believe that Jo would be writing character's OOC and have people critisizing her writing for at least two years. Would she be willing to do this, to pull off what she wants in book 7? I think she would. Joj, who's H/H heart was crushed and doesn't know if she has the heart to believe this theory. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 20 02:59:41 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:59:41 -0000 Subject: FILK: Pore ***** is Daid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133314 SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER Pore `Gog Is Daid To the tune of Pore Jud Is Daid from Rodgers & Hammerstein's Oklahoma! Dedicated to Tracy Hunt (the stage manager) THE SCENE: Hagrid's hut. HARRY, HAGRID, & SLUGHORN give the late Acromantula Aragog an appropriately sober-minded send-off. HAGRID: Pore `Gog is daid, Pore Aragog is daid. The Forest's great Webmaster is no more He spun a mighty web But then all his powers ebbed Like Odo in them bygone days of yore HARRY & SLUGHORN Pore `Gog is daid, Pore Aragog is daid. Oh, nevermore our spider friend will spin HAGRID: Friend will spin! HARRY & SLUGHORN We'll lay him `neath the ground Where eternal rest is found And so he won't get et up by his kin SLUGHORN: (speaking) Folks, we is gathered here to mourn and say farewell to Aragog, the king of the arachnids, whose long and faithful friendship those who knew you won't forget. Though your body is like to decay, your spirit lingers on in the quiet web-spun places of your forest home. As your good friend Hagrid was wont to say, you was the most misunderstood organism in all of the Forbidden Forest. People used to say you was a mean, hungry fella and they called ya a no-account webslinger and an eight-legg?d freak (Singing) But to folks what really knowed 'im Like our Rubeus Hagrid as he patrolled He was a creature worth his weight in gold HAGRID Although his blood ran cold- SLUGHORN: He so loved the human race HARRY It was his favorite taste - SLUGHORN: (Speaking) He loved the birds of the forest And the beasts of the field, He loved the cows and the horses in the barn, And he thought that cats tasted like quails, and he was right! And he loved the little children, more than anybody Or anything in the world...Only he'd never left the corpus delecti, So nobody ever convicted him . (Singing) Pore `Gog is daid, Pore Aragog is daid. May he go to his reward with all due haste HARRY & HAGRID All due haste! SLUGHORN: 'Tis a critter I revere with a venom that's so dear That I guarantee no drop shall go to waste. HARRY Pore `Gog is daid, our arachnid is daid, I won't forget the day that he played host SLUGHORN & HAGRID: Host -- HARRY: It's sad his spider sense of a sudden went past tense Let's raise a cup to him in solemn toast SLUGHORN & HAGRID (clinking glasses): Toast! ALL THREE: Pore `Gog is daid, our arachnid is daid, Oh, why do giant spiders have to die? HARRY (aside, as he magically refills his companions' cups) I'll let my friend to grieve But become the Boy Who Weaves And, spider-wise, catch Slughorn on the fly . ALL THREE: Pore `Gog, pore `Gog! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:59:44 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:59:44 -0000 Subject: The potion in the Cave (Was Re: Summary of why Snape's probably a Good Guy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133315 wrote: > What do you think? zgirnius: Excellent essay. Lots of food for thought, and thanks for bringing it to our attention! I am afraid I will probably inflict a lengthy why Snape is not ESE post of my own on the list at some point, but I am not ready yet... There is one point made in the essay that I don't get. It is not actually needed to support the argument he makes regarding Snape, but it still bothers me. He asserts that RAB (Regulus Black, we both agree on that...) wrote that he expected to die soon *because he knew the potion he drank in the cave would kill him*, not the Death Eaters or LV. But if Regulus drank it, how did it come to be there for Dumbledore to drink it years later? Who would have replaced it? And thinking further about the whole potion thing, if RAB did not drink it, how did he get the real Horcrux, or put the fake one in? (DD seemed to rule this out.) I welcome anyone's insights! From decadmus at bloggle.com Wed Jul 20 02:54:12 2005 From: decadmus at bloggle.com (Doug Cadmus) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:54:12 -0000 Subject: The SHIPS and why I think they were there In-Reply-To: <20050719155139.99281.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > This is where Remus/Tonks comes in. This showed us > Tonks losing her abilities and such and told us the > reason why. I'm thinking that Hary might be on the > weak side because he's denying himself love. I think you're right! And maybe we'll see Ginny using precisely this argument with Harry in book 7. After all, Albus made it *immensely* clear that the real difference between Harry and Voldy was that Harry knew love, and kept real friends. It's pretty instructive -- don't try to go it alone -- which of course Harry is setting himself up to attempt. -dec P.S. I've lurked here for a *very* long time and found with this latest book I couldn't wait to join in. Glad to have other grown-ups to talk with about this wonderful bunch of stories! From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 02:44:09 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:44:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What about Harry's Soul? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133317 On Jul 19, 2005, at 9:37 PM, Tonks wrote: > > > Tonks: > Hum... so you think that Harry should... what is the word... snog > (just a little bit) with a dementor??? lol...? Interesting idea. > What about the fact that Harry's blood in now in LV?? I wish that DD > had explained that to Harry before he died.? It must be important. > > All in all, I don't know if we can really ever guess what JKR has in > mind.? She, much to my amazement, given the collective wisdom of > this group, still manages to outwit and surprise us time and time > again. It just boggles the mind. > This may be an overtly Christian interpretation which will play against the sympathies of many here. However, I think that perhaps it is plausible. There is much in both Judaism and Christianity about the power of blood. The power of the blood sacrifice is referenced in nearly every religious tradition. We know that Harry is preserved through the sacred magic of his mother's blood sacrifice. Perhaps that same love and blood sacrifice which protects Harry will redeem that small portion of LV's soul. I hesitate to post this because I haven't entirely worked through the theory, but this is one possible direction. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amciotola at adelphia.net Wed Jul 20 03:01:36 2005 From: amciotola at adelphia.net (amciotola) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:01:36 -0400 Subject: My thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720030151.ZUYI29002.mta9.adelphia.net@d9300> No: HPFGUIDX 133318 Spoiler Space Spoiler Space I just closed the book. Right now I'm a little shell shocked but these are some of my thoughts. I don't know if reading fanfic has had an influence on me but this was like reading a huge fanfic. Favorite line: "I don't want to stay here over night, I want to find McLaggen and kill him." Favorite response: "I'm afraid that would be under the heading of 'overexertion'" OMG I nearly died laughing at the whole McLaggen Quidditch experience!! I haven't laughed that hard since reading Nekkid Quidditch the first time. and Luna commentating!! OMG!! Could. Not. Breath. Ships: Harry and Ginny [Razz] Won Won and Hermione [Razz] Tonks and Lupin [Thumbsup] Fluer really surprised me, not as shallow as you would have thought she would be. Good for her! I found the Moldyshorts back story fascinating! I liked learning about him and what drove him to become what he has. Dumbledor's death was not as shocking as I knew it was coming, but the circumstances around it, whoo. I think I take back what I stated earlier about Snape. If I were both Snape or Draco I wouldn't fancy on running into Harry in a dark alley. All in all I enjoyed the book better than I did OoTP. I cried just as much with Dumbledor as I did with Sirius. How much more can Harry take. I'm glad that Ron and Hermione plan on sticking with him. I love that trio-ness. Okay I'll leave it there. Want to troll some of the HP live journal sites to see what my favorite Harry/Hermione authors are saying. It's going to be a long wait for book 7. Asiotola From lapland874 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:18:52 2005 From: lapland874 at yahoo.com (lapland874) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:18:52 -0000 Subject: "THE RING" question In-Reply-To: <410-220057219194429390@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133319 Chancie wrote: > What happens to a Horcrux when it is destroyed? > > When DD arrives at Privet drive, his hand is already > blackened, and dead looking, but he is wearing the > ring. Wouldn't the ring have been destroyed when > the Horcrux is distroyed? And was it on DD's hand > when he distroyed it? Wouldn't that be kinda...well., > stupid to try and destroy something your wearing > at the time?? Harry destroyed the Horcrux in Riddle's Diary with the fang. The fang had a particularly nasty venum which was probably a dark art type magic, so there was no reprecussion to Harry at the time. However destroying a Horcrux could be very dangerous if not done exactly right. Harry tends to be very lucky when stumbling into unknown magic. The diary still remained after Harry destroyed the Horcrux and so did the ring. Dumbledore's arm was a small price to pay for the destruction of the Horcrux, and so will the price be for the destruction of the others. The evidence does lean to R. Black being the one that steals the locket and it being at Grimwald place. This is a good excuse for Harry to go to his own house. Harry is already going to Godricks Hollow, is there another item there? The new Potions master will probably know how to destroy them with less self distruction, but would the mothers love protect Harry when he destroys the rest? Did it protect him when he destroyed the diary? We know the sole lives on after death acording to the books, but what happens when there are seven parts of a sole? If the individual parts do not cross over at the same time do they die? Thus Vultimore may never see the other side when he ultimately dies. Or he may be rent asunder forever. Harry will need to present each item to LV before destroying him to let him know that when he dies he will be dead for sure. He will only then truely be scared to die and thus actually be easier to kill. When Nearly Headless Nick tells Harry about death he says the sole is split between the part that moves on and the part that stays for those who become goasts. Is there any similar connection with the Horcrux's? ----Joe From leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 20 02:58:15 2005 From: leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca (leavingedenbehind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:58:15 -0000 Subject: Dallas Theory - Shipping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133320 I jut have a few brief comments on a couple of things you said... Neil: > 2. R/Hr fans are quite happy. They wish there had been kissing, but > otherwise are on cloud nine except for Ron's actions toward > Lavender. Many feel it was too much. > 4. Overall most fans feel the shipping was poorly written. You felt > more lust than love Ex. Harry and Ginny just seemed to happen. No > sign of it in book five, no build up in this book. Just suddenly > Harry looked at her and was in love. > 5. Characters seemed out of character, especially Hermione. I agree to a certain extent with these points, but on the other hand, these are teenagers we're talking about. Even with the weight of the world on his shoulders, isn't Harry, as a breathing, red-blooded alpha male (well, pretty much, anyway), allowed to suddenly develop a crush? Flighty, probably, but it's happened many a time to many a teen. ... > Now over night Harry gets the hots for Ginny and Ron, who supposedly > loves Hermione, starts kissing sessions with Lavender Brown. I don't > know what either smells like at the present time, but I'm sure at > some point Harry refers to Ginny smelling like flowers at the Burrow. I think it can be pretty convincingly argued that Ron spontaneously started snogging Lavender because his own little sister, Ginny, told him that he had all the experience of a twelve year old - a pretty low blow, if you ask me. Plus, if he /is/ in love with Hermione, and I accept that he at least thinks he is at this point (not to say his feelings aren't genuine, but they are at least *inserts word less insulting than 'juvenile'*), then it makes perfect sense that he would see Lavender 'seeing' him, and figure it was the perfect opportunity to a) gain experience that will doubtless come in handy later, b) shut up his sister, and c) make hermione incredibly jealous. It's not like he's cheating on her - they haven't done anything yet. Now. In response to your argument that it acted, from a distance, on Harry to make him lust after Ginny. The Amortentia smells, to any given person, like whatever most attracts them to any other given person. It causes attraction, yes, but it doesn't cause /choice/. Harry was already attracted to the smell of flowers - possibly, if these flowers already smelled like Ginny, there is a strong case to argue that he already had subconsious feelings for her. However, it doesn't work the other way. Harry does not /become/ attracted to someone because they smell, to him, like the love potion does. JMO. Amanda From hekele at mac.com Wed Jul 20 03:07:15 2005 From: hekele at mac.com (Heather) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:07:15 -0000 Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133321 I just pulled out SS to start my re-read of the series after my first read through HBP, and pounced on the meeting with Quirrell. I had been under the impression that Quirrell had held the position for some time, and I ran across the passage that had created this impression. "He was fine while he was studying out of books but then he took a year off ter get some first-hand experience.... They say he met vampires in the Black Forest, and there was a nasty bit o' trouble with a hag -- never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his own subject..." (pp. 70-71 US paperback) How could he /now/ be scared of his subject whereas he wasn't before, if he hasn't taught DADA before? If he's taught DADA before, then Dumbledore can't be right in saying that he hasn't been able to keep someone in this position for more than a year. Any thoughts? Heather From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:09:18 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:09:18 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. is Regulus Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133322 I think R.A.B. is Regulus Black. His history is recalled by SB, but (1) SB admits that he had to track this info down about his brother, (2) the information could be wrong, and (3) even if it is true, all it does is give Regulus a motive (i.e., he decided to leave LVs service). JKR also gives a number of possible middle names for Regulus (i.e., other family members names) that would give him the initials R.A.B.: Alphard, Araminta, & Andromeda. Since "Uncle Alphard" seemed to have lots of money, it is possible that Regulus's full name is "Regulus Alphard Black." Sure, Alphard later got removed from the family tree (because he left his money to SB), but you can see them trying to butter him up before this (all of this from, OotP, pp. 111-113). In addition, although I am having trouble locating it now, Regulus is mentioned again in HBP. Help from anyone locating this passage would be appreciated. I remember it was in reference to how quick and unforgiving the death eaters are about members that leave. Anyway, that's my idea. Let me know what you think. Jake From lapland874 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:37:27 2005 From: lapland874 at yahoo.com (lapland874) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:37:27 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133323 Snape had apparently invented several curses as evidenced by the potion book which Harry used all year. However one curse was actually used the previous year. When James turned Snape upside down was on the day of his OWL's exam. The advanced potions book was not used by Snape until the following year. Unless he was already using it? So did Snape invent that curse/jinx or did he just figure it out and then write it in the book? Obviously some of them where truely his, but maybe not all of them. Lapland874 From leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 20 02:38:51 2005 From: leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca (leavingedenbehind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:38:51 -0000 Subject: Where are the Horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133324 > I had another thought about the Horcruxes. There are a couple other > things at number 12 Grimauld place. When they are cleaning the drawing > room one of the things they find in the curio cabinet is a music box > that makes them all sleepy (sorry don't have book in front of me for > exact page) but it says something like "until Ginny had the good sense > to close it" another thing in that cabinet was a vile of something > that looked like blood. so maybe these are things that should have a > closer look taken of them. > Sherry Maybe, but IMO they could just be...stuff. I mean, we have countless examples of things that are just red herrings in the books. Mark Evans, for one, who made quite a splash. There are millions of portraits (slight exagerration) in Dumbledore's office who whe've never heard from, and never will, and there still is the persisting argument for the two mystery girls in Hermione's dormitory (please excuse if any of this is out of date - have been living under rock, discussion-wise). Now, I realize that my examples are people instead of things, and that both the Hand of Glory and deadly necklace from earlier in the series in Borgin and Burke's made rather impressive cameos this time 'round, but even JKR, queen of integration, can't fit /everything/ in... just my 2 cents.. Amanda From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:10:21 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:10:21 -0000 Subject: "THE RING" question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133325 Joe Wrote: > We know the sole lives on after death acording to the books, but what > happens when there are seven parts of a sole? If the individual > parts do not cross over at the same time do they die? Thus Vultimore > may never see the other side when he ultimately dies. Or he may be > rent asunder forever. > > Harry will need to present each item to LV before destroying him to > let him know that when he dies he will be dead for sure. He will > only then truely be scared to die and thus actually be easier to > kill. Valky: Actually I think this is what the line from the prophecy, One must Die by the hand of the other, means. Perhaps it means that somehow these parts have to be joined together to finally die. > > When Nearly Headless Nick tells Harry about death he says the sole > is split between the part that moves on and the part that stays for > those who become goasts. Is there any similar connection with the > Horcrux's? > > ----Joe Valky: Yes I think there is a strong connection between the two things, which is hinted at repeatedly by Dumbledore saying that LV believes death is the worst thing that can happen to a person. Voldie is definitely Ghost material. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Jul 20 02:25:43 2005 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (Jazmyn Concolor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:25:43 -0700 Subject: What about Harry's Soul? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DDB627.5000807@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133326 snufflesnbeakie wrote: >Couldn't there be more than one way to remove a sliver of soul ithout >the person dying to do it? Even when a dementor performs the "kiss", >thus removing the whole soul, the person continues to exist (horribly >hollow, yes - but they continue to exist) What if a person had more >than one soul contained within? Then what? You know, that brings up the question if a Dementor can eat just a piece of a soul in the case of someone who has killed several times and has split their soul more then once? Could Voldemort be feeding 'pieces' of the DEs souls to the dementors to keep them loyal? Perhaps in their sleep, leaving them alive, but less and less human... Explains why most of them seem so psychotic and wacked. Jazmyn From nero at nc.rr.com Wed Jul 20 02:36:41 2005 From: nero at nc.rr.com (njohnso73) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:36:41 -0000 Subject: The Lightning Struck Tower Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133327 Trelwaney saw calamity coming in the tower, "coming nearer all the time." (pg 543 in the US book, and I think earlier than that too.) I can't tell though if she told Dumbledore about that in specific, or if her statement "Dumbledore chooses to ignore the warnings the cards show" is a general one. If she has told him about it, he may not be ignoring exactly. He knows something is afoot, and so her prediction isn't very surprising. There may not be a lot he can do about it. I just wonder if she's getting better or getting lucky here. Sandy From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:12:27 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:12:27 -0000 Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133328 Good point. I always thought that Q had been in the position for at least a year prior. Even if Q has taught somewhere else before, how would Hagrid know that his is scared of his students? In addition, no one talks about how Q is a new instructor in book one. Usually, the new instructor is picked apart by the students at the beginning of each year. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heather" wrote: > I just pulled out SS to start my re-read of the series after my first read through HBP, and > pounced on the meeting with Quirrell. I had been under the impression that Quirrell had held > the position for some time, and I ran across the passage that had created this impression. > > "He was fine while he was studying out of books but then he took a year off ter get some > first-hand experience.... They say he met vampires in the Black Forest, and there was a nasty > bit o' trouble with a hag -- never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his > own subject..." (pp. 70-71 US paperback) > > How could he /now/ be scared of his subject whereas he wasn't before, if he hasn't taught > DADA before? If he's taught DADA before, then Dumbledore can't be right in saying that he > hasn't been able to keep someone in this position for more than a year. Any thoughts? > > Heather From erikog at one.net Wed Jul 20 01:41:35 2005 From: erikog at one.net (Krista7) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:41:35 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133329 I already posted this (in essence) on a Snape list and board, but since we're posting our arguments for/against Snape, I thought I'd throw this out to the greater HP community.? "I believe in Severus Snape."--Albus Dumbledore Okay, to make myself feel better about Book 6, I am going to construct a brief defense here of Severus Snape--an argument for us to hold on for Book 7, at the very least. In other words, I want to make the case that there's reasonable doubt in this book before I start bawling from the destruction of my favorite character!? So, a list of objections to the assumption that Snape is as bad as we think by the end of Book 6. 1.) Everyone, *everyone*, says that Dumbledore is absolute in his trust of Snape *and* Snape's own colleagues/associates' (for years!) initial reactions are (paraphrased) "Not Severus." The idea that Snape killed Dumbledore in cold blood does not agree with anybody-- save Harry's--sense of Snape's character. And as we know Harry's inclinations here, he's not a reliable character judge. Whom do you believe: Harry or Dumbledore? Which of the two do you truly believe to be the better character judge? 2.) "Why Dumbledore trusted Snape"/why what we know doesn't fly.? Harry believes Dumbledore took Snape back in to the fold after he confessed to hearing the prophecy and spilling the beans; Dumbledore believed Snape to be so sorry about that incident that he decided he was absolutely trustworthy from then on.? *However*, what Harry's theory misses is that while Dumbledore thinks that the prophecy interpretation "may" have been the trigger to bring Snape to the side of the good, Dumbledore *never* says, anywhere, that it was because of his confession alone he trusted Snape. That is, there may still be another reason, a more compelling reason, for Dumbledore's absolute trust in Snape.? In that vein of thought-- 3.) Dumbledore is kind but not stupid. Do we really believe Snape showed up in his office one day, a boy with mastery of the Dark Arts *and* practical skill in it, whimpered a bit about having passed on that prophecy to Voldie, and Dumbledore just said, "Oh, well, that's a boy, have a lemon-drop and let's forget about it"? Dumbledore is not Dumbledolt.? Let's review:? Snape (and JKR, too) has suggested that Dumbledore didn't give Snape the DA job before because it might've prompted a "relapse" into bad behavior. Is this somebody who has turned a completely blind eye to Snape's past? Dumbledore, I should point out, also has a history with homicidal psychopaths in the making, and as we saw with his memory sequence of Voldemort, just because Dumbledore gives a person a chance doesn't mean he doesn't keep his eyes open. One would think, especially after Voldie, that Dumbledore would not be inclined to issue a blank- check of forgiveness to anybody without unbelievably compelling proof of loyalty. 4.) Have we forgotten Dumbledore gave Snape a command in the last book, one that was never clarified in this book--"You know what I must ask you to do, Severus", and a somewhat frightened Snape nodded? Why would that scene be necessary, especially the scared Snape? Why include it, unless it is to plant the idea in our heads that Snape isn't trotting off to join the masked boys of his own inclination?? 5.) Behaviorisms: When Snape uttered the curse, his face twisted with "hatred and revulsion." Let's say you are Voldie, or a follower of his. Are you *revolted* by the sight of your enemy on his knees? "Revulsion" has the sense of pulling back, of being sickened (in a nauseated, not sarcastic, sense); what's more likely to make you feel ill--having to kill your most unspeakable enemy, or having to kill a man you love?? 6.) Later on, when Snape faces off with Harry, he's likened to the frightened Fang in the burning house--trapped, desperate, dangerous because of his extreme emotions. It is a sympathetic image, and a strange one to direct to a man who's a stone-cold murderer, if we're truly meant to join Harry in hating Snape. 7.) The words exchanged between Snape and Dumbledore are intriguing. If Dumbledore's belief in Snape is ironclad, he would not feel a need to "plead" for his life. He might not outright *say*, "Oh, Severus, how nice of you to stop your double-agent work and come help me again" in front of the DE squad, but he definitely wouldn't start off pleading. Meanwhile, if Dumbledore's belief in Snape has been fundamentally shaken, he'd either come out with some statement of love for Snape--like with Draco, "This is not you, my son," etc.-- or disbelief. We'd see some sign of surprise in Dumbledore as Snape raises his wand.? Note:?Dumbledore does try to talk to Draco, to talk him out of an act of murder--but he doesn't plead, ever, with Draco, for his life. He does his best to dissuade Draco from murder, to talk him to the side of the good, and though he knows Draco's life, and his family's lives, are on the line, Dumbledore does not resort to becoming a pleading old man before him. Why would he plead, to use Harry's word, to Snape, but not Draco?? 8.) If Dumbledore believes so absolutely in Snape, again, and his desire is to escape the situation with his life, why didn't he free Harry once Snape entered the room? He would believe at the time that he had two of the world's best wizards, armed, at his side, and if he could recover his own wand (likely, vs. the likes of Draco--and who's saying Dumbledore truly needs a wand, anyway), numerically, the Hogwarts boys definitely stood a chance of defeating the DE in that room. 9.) When Harry and Dumbledore return to Hogwarts, Dumbledore says, then, as he did before in Hogsmead, that he needs Snape, not Pomfrey. Since she worked on Katie (as well as Snape), you'd think Dumbledore wouldn't just automatically waive getting the nurse in, too. So why just Snape? 10.)?JKR never lets Snape say, at the end, "Ahh, the old man got what he deserved!" or "Take that, Dumbledore! Here's for denying me that job for all those years!" etc. She doesn't give him the moment to explain that all JKR villains before have had. Even when he faces off with Harry, the only comments he makes are to deny he's a coward (with obvious emotional distress here) and to take a shot at Harry's father for his quadruple-teaming of Snape. There's no sign anywhere that Snape is on some sort of high from having thrown off his mask, that he wants Harry to see his acts as a rejection of the Dumbledore value system. Zippo. All he wants is to get out, and get Draco out safely. 11.) We? have reason to believe Dumbledore is dying before the AK hits. That's not an excuse for Snape doing it, of course. But what's the point of Dumbledore so obviously weakening at the end-- isn't that extraneous? Is it not enough to have Dumbledore at a disadvantage, somehow, but *dying* when facing his own murder? Isn't that a bit of overkill (literally)? What plot point would that serve- -unless to give us the idea that Snape wasn't entirely responsible for the death, that there was something else going on in the scene?? 12.) This is connected to #11. We know Dumbledore can be vicious with those he loves. Note how he makes Harry swear to obey him before they go off on the mission, and then he makes Harry--using that vow--give him, forcibly, a potion that puts him through grave torment and pain. Does that sound to anybody else a bit like the scene Hagrid reported, of Snape and Dumbledore arguing, of Dumbledore reminding Snape of his vows to do as Dumbledore said, even if Snape doesn't want to do "it" anymore? ? 13.) Draco himself says Snape had no idea that Draco had, at last, found the way to get the DE into Hogwarts. While Snape knows of the earlier efforts (after the fact), Draco cuts Snape out of the loop on the one that works. Hmmm, interesting, eh? 14.) In his vow to Narcissa, Snape seems to act in a paternal/protective light that isn't consistent with a black-and- white villain. It's too sympathetic. You feel a bit sorry for him, swearing to look after Draco, and then getting the tag-on, *after* they've started the vow, "And, oh, by the way--kill Dumbledore, too." (Come on, even without them saying what the job was, we all knew it was bad!) 15.) How can so many intelligent readers walk away with the same frustrating sense that there's more to the story, if the author thinks it is all crystal-clear by now? JKR *wants* us not to accept the ending as clear. 16.) As Ron, I believe, pointed out, Snape never does take Harry's book from him. Given that Harry never found anything worth of being expelled in the book, why wouldn't Snape demand it back? So it has a bit of silly grafitti in it, a stupid nickname. What harm would there be to Snape in insisting on the book's return??(And wouldn't there be a lot of good, from a DE POV, if such a guide didn't fall into the hands of Voldie's arch-enemy, training him against Voldie?) Note well: Snape's own teaching saved Ron's life, according to both Harry and Hermione.? 17.) Is Snape a turncoat, a secret blood supremacist, as Harry thinks? Is the "Half Blood Prince" a positive title or a negative one? (I could see it being a sarcastic taunt from his peers in Slytherin, which Snape then jotted in his book sarcastically.) We don't have a lot of background on Snape's views on this. Note that he never takes a Mudblood crack at anybody save Lilly in that one memory, when she's embarrassed him by standing up for him--and he never takes the obvious shot at Harry's parentage. I just don't think we get enough info from Snape and Hermione's research to establish more than that Snape was a genius in school. (And apparently, he can teach well and informatively through his class *and* his old book...) Harry's use of the book--which Harry admits he wouldn't have done if Snape had still been Potions Master!--may not have been ethical for his schooling, but the book itself doesn't show any signs of an evil character behind it, I'd argue--just a really smart kid with an interest in fighting. 18.) Why is it necessary for JKR to drop the bomb that it was Snape who heard the infamous prophecy right before Dumbledore and HP leave, not giving them a lot of time to discuss what Harry's heard and/or HP to demand more answers about Snape's trustworthiness? Why is it necessary to do so just *then*, if not to color our moods for later and make us, like HP, more inclined to jump to the conclusion that Snape is DE through-and-through? And to cut off the amount of time for pondering/explaining just why Dumbledore held Snape to be trustworthy after he came to confess his deeds? 19.) Snape is *still* saving HP as of the end of the book! Nor does he attempt to haul HP off to meet/be killed by Voldie, as he could easily have done. Why is that? Why did HP and AD flourish for five years, if SS wanted them bumped off, as a matter of fact?? 20. For what reason does Dumbledore want Harry to go along on *this* particular Horcrux mission? Beyond AD's reluctance to put a child in danger,?Harry's vital to the overall "Defeat Voldie" plan, too valuable by far to put in harm's way for no reason. If the invitation is for back-up, note, he didn't ask Harry previously to go with him, and he has other, more experienced wizards around him he could take if he just wanted back-up. (In fact, by making Harry swear to run if Dumbledore tells him to, AD implies he's not going to put Harry in harm's way and so he probably *isn't* there just for back-up.)?He certainly didn't ask Harry along simply for the joy of traumatizing him with the force-feeding of the potion bit. And by the end of the sequence, when Harry and AD go home, Harry really can't do anything for AD--he only wants Snape. Why didn't AD bring somebody else along, if all he wanted was a person to force-feed him that potion?? So why didn't he bring Snape all along, hmm? Snape's scrawny, so his weight in the boat wouldn't have been a problem; you can't make me believe, seriously, Snape's magic will register in the cave and Harry Potter's *won't*; and Snape's the one AD wants in the end (when Harry seems to think AD wants a person to heal him), anyway.? So why not just take Snape???Taking Harry makes no sense--unless-- Harry was a back-up, not for Albus, but for Snape. Harry was dragged into the mission without foreknowledge of what it would really entail--do you think AD would rush off into doing something without doing some research first, hmm?--because Albus knew any adult who knew him and the context would be highly suspicious/resistant to participate ("Go with me to a cave and do whatever I say. No, I won't explain what this entails beforehand. Yes, I already nearly lost my hand by trying this on my own earlier, but that's all you need to know." Sound like a suicide mission to anybody else?) Note,?Harry tried to back out of the force-feeding idea once AD told him about it--would he have even gone on the mission if he knew he'd have to do *that* at the end, let alone if he knew it would kill AD? My idea is that AD had already broached the idea to Snape that he was going to drink that potion--perhaps he injured his hand by sticking it into the water earlier and then decided to drink it on the next go-round?--and Snape balked at the idea of force-feeding him/possibly finishing him off. Knowing he couldn't get Snape into that cave with him, Albus instead took innocent Harry, brutally manipulating him into following through with his obedience vow (and still not telling him the worst possible outcome of the potion).? By drinking the potion without Snape's presence or consent, AD was running an end-game around Snape's disagreement to the plan and forcing Snape to follow through with the next step, killing off AD.? --------- My gut theory: Dumbledore had to die. Either for reasons we don't know about, or to save Severus for the next book (who is more valuable? AD or the spy at Voldie's shoulder? We know AD does think in terms of "value," as he constantly explains to HP that AD has to do the blood-sacrificing etc. because he's of less value), AD had to die and he knew it. This isn't Sirius II, where somebody gets cut down out of the blue. Snape was acting on orders to kill AD--AD's orders. Maybe it was to stop Voldie from getting the murder-energy to stash away another bit of his soul--because the kill wouldn't be a murder on Snape's hands (acting on orders from AD), as opposed to how it would be if Draco did it--and maybe, too, it was to spare Draco from becoming a murderer. But because of all of the above points, I suspect strongly that AD's end wasn't because SS double- crossed him as HP believes. And to reiterate:? Reason #21.?As has been beaten into our heads by now, AD believes in Snape. Do you think, at the end of the story, JKR intends us to see AD as just a trusting old fool? Or as the symbol of love triumphant? As Lupin--who ranks *very* highly in JKR's eyes-- says, "If you believe in Dumbledore, you believe in Snape." I rest my case! Krista From mailyn.dejesus at agb.com.ph Wed Jul 20 02:41:36 2005 From: mailyn.dejesus at agb.com.ph (Mai de Jesus) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:41:36 +0800 Subject: New leader of the Order (Snape with Fawkes?) Message-ID: <010201c58cd4$8cebdbb0$7c01a8c0@mailyn> No: HPFGUIDX 133330 Hello! I'm new here (I'm telling you you can make allowances) Anyways, I agree that if ever Fawkes will have a new owner it would most likely be Harry than anybody else. However, there are parts in the book that have me hoping that Dumblodore is still the leader of the Order and that Snape did not really take Dumbledore for a ride for so many years. When he was trying to get Draco over to the "right side" he metioned something about the ability of the order to hide a person or that no one will look for you if you were dead... Do you think Dumbledore with the aid of Snape will fake his own death to spare Draco Malfoy of Voldemort's wrath? "Mai de Jesus" From maggieanndavies at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 02:23:15 2005 From: maggieanndavies at yahoo.com (maggieanndavies) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:23:15 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord's secret Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133331 Two things caught my attention about the note Harry found in the locket. The first, which many have already mentioned, is it's author. I agree with those of you who have suggested that it's Regulus. But there's something else in it. "...but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret." {HBP p609 U.S.} What is the Dark Lord's secret that R.A.B. has learned??? Interesting too that the note is addressed to the "Dark Lord" and not "Lord Voldemort". Hmmm. I've been reading this group on and off for a while, fun to finally be writing. M.A.D. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:15:50 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:15:50 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lapland874" wrote: > Snape had apparently invented several curses as evidenced by the potion > book which Harry used all year. However one curse was actually used > the previous year. When James turned Snape upside down was on the day > of his OWL's exam. The advanced potions book was not used by Snape > until the following year. Unless he was already using it? So did > Snape invent that curse/jinx or did he just figure it out and then > write it in the book? Obviously some of them where truely his, but > maybe not all of them. > > > Lapland874 Juli: He could have invented them long before his 6th year, but only during his 6th year he wrote them on his Advances Potions Book; or since he seems like a natural potion-maker, he could have been studying on his own, just like HArry has studied DADA all by himself (and Ron and HErmione, of course) Juli From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Wed Jul 20 03:21:31 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:21:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <938a15674c5ff7878cdd5d8fd0f466cd@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133333 > "Mrs. Hermione Snape" wrote: > > I sincerely doubt that it is Regulus Black.? Sirius said he doubted > > that his brother was ever important enough for Voldermort to kill > > him > > himself. Rowen : > As for your guess that the RAB is Borgin, the problem is that he has > no motivation to destroy the locket...Also, RAB says he > will soon be dead, and mister Borgin is very much alive. Hmm...Sirius was out of contact with him family, and younger brothers do grow up and change. Perhaps Regulus is more accomplished than Sirius knows? Maybe Regulus had help? Black's family seems to be very intelligent and connected. A headmaster even! Even Sirius' crazy mum had enough smarts to secure her picture to the wall so that even a group of talented (and motivated) wizards couldn't pry it off. As far as Borgin, if he is alive then he couldn't be a candidate. But is Mr. Borgin still still alive? I wouldn't count out a dark wizard as being a culprit. RAB has to be someone who knows about Horcruxes and has to be someone close to Voldemort too. Close enough address him as "Dark Lord" and to sign the message with just his/her initials. In fact, it's quite probable that RAB is a dark wizard. I suspect that there are quite a number of dark wizards who who may have personal grudges against LV and who have no desire (to put it mildly) to be treated as LV's slave. It seems as if most of Voldemort's DE followers are younger than he is. I suspect that as a rule many older dark wizards are not enthralled by LV. I would propose is a third candidate for RAB--someone in the Bone's family. Voldemort has it in for that family. Two different attacks and multiple deaths. What have the Bone's been doing to incur so much wrath? Many possibilities...and too much time. Barbara Roberts (Ivogun), who found the ending quite a shock...cried up a storm...and I usually don't cry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:23:10 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:23:10 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. is Regulus Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133334 Sorry to reply to my own post (that's pretty doink), but R.A.B.= Regulus Black is also supported by the writer's use of "Dark Lord" to refer to LV. Only death eaters do that and Regulus was a former death eater. Jake From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:26:29 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:26:29 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord's secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maggieanndavies" wrote: > > "...but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret." > {HBP p609 U.S.} > > What is the Dark Lord's secret that R.A.B. has learned??? > Juli; LV's secret is how he became *inmortal*, the Horcruxes are his secrets, nobody know about them (not even Lucius who's in teh inner circle) > Interesting too that the note is addressed to the "Dark Lord" and > not "Lord Voldemort". Hmmm. > Juli: Few people call LV "Voldemort" (Harry, Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore, Hermione), but the Death Eaters call him the Dark Lord (Snape during class, the Narcissa-Bella-Snape conversation, in OoP during Occlumency lessons ...) So that's one of the reasons I (and others) think it's Regulus: He was a DE (Sirius says so in OoP), He died shortly after quitting his DE "job" (Sirius in OoP, Remus in the Hospital Wing at the end of HBP), He seems to dislike what LV was up to (he only joined him because he wanted to get rid of "mudbloods"), and of course, the initials RAB, we don't know his middle name, but *maybe* it's a A name. Juli - I don't think I've ever read so many posts in a day, BTW, welcome to all the new members. > I've been reading this group on and off for a while, fun to finally be > writing. > > M.A.D. From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:27:49 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:27:49 -0000 Subject: Funniest Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Hodges" wrote: > I thought that the funniest line in the book was the one where Mr. Weasley asked Mrs. Weasley her secret question. I think that it is one of the funniest out of all the books. > > Also did anyone else notice when Slughorn called Ron, Rupert? > > Jamie H Now Kelly: Why are you worrying about You-Know-Who? You should be worrying about U-No-Poo - The Constipation Sensation That's Gripping The Nation! US edition Pg. 116 I thought I would die laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!! From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:34:19 2005 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:34:19 -0000 Subject: The Lightning Struck Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njohnso73" wrote: > Trelwaney saw calamity coming in the tower, "coming nearer all the > time." > I just wonder if she's getting better or getting lucky here. > > Sandy It probably would hinge on her presentation - if she was speaking in her misty, dreamy voice - she was lucky. If she went all rigid and had a harsh voice - that would have been her third real prediction;-) From leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 20 03:26:09 2005 From: leavingedenbehind at yahoo.ca (leavingedenbehind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:26:09 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133338 Juli: He could have invented them long before his 6th year, but only > during his 6th year he wrote them on his Advances Potions Book; or > since he seems like a natural potion-maker, he could have been > studying on his own, just like HArry has studied DADA all by himself > (and Ron and HErmione, of course) Additionally, the theory that I've been reading a lot on the boards is that the book was actually Snape's mother's book when she was at Hogwarts, and if we accept this, then it's not a stretch at all to assume he had access to the book before his sixth year. Also, enlightened by Dumbledore's revelation that only the source of magic is traceable, not the caster, for the purposes of underage magic detection, we may be able to infer that Snape may have had the opportunity to practice and hone his skills, far ahead of his class, at home during holidays. Amanda From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:37:33 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:37:33 -0000 Subject: Valky's Confession - Snape is my Hero now..... (still love Marauders though) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133339 OK OK, for the last three years I have ruffled the feathers of many a Snape apologist, Snapeophile, and Snape lover with my determination to prove James and Sirius knew what they were up against in the Pensieve, and we didn't. Now that I am vindicated in that by Half Blood Prince, the Deadly Sectumsempra, and, what appears to be at first glance, Dumbeldore's murder, I am not here to gloat.. (I don't have nearly as much to gloat about as CindySphinx, Amandageist, and Rita et al members of the PASHMINAS/CHOP clubs OMG *how long ago!* did you guys get that one right!!) I am here to confess.... I have fallen in love with the greasy haired git.. I love him... I love him... *she pulls gently at invisible fluff on her new SHINY GOLD PASHMINA* OK lets have some canon about that then shall we.. 1. Snape countered the curse on the ring. Voldemorts curse that Dumbledore didn't have the knowledge of to fix himself. Snape is not stupid, he knew that Dumbledore had broken a very valuable magical object belonging to Voldemort, he possibly even knew it was a Horcrux, he's seen one before (the diary). It is clear that Snape is clever enough to have known that Dumbledore had struck a powerful blow on Voldemort, Snape knew all this and yet he hesitates to make the unbreakable vow? 2. Snape gave Dumbledore the cursed DADA position. Within weeks of having exposed Snape to the one most valuable and important Order secret of all, that he was locating and destroying Horcruxes, Dumbledore gives Snape a fond farewell? Come now that doesn't add up, one could argue that DD made a mistake in trusting Snape but that is just outright blatant short-sightedness. Are we *really* supposed to believe that Dumbledore was that far past it? 3. Somebody was frustrating Draco. Dumbledore confesses outrightly in the end that he was keeping a deliberate and careful distance from Draco, he didn't want to see him killed by Voldemort. Harry couldn't find him for most of the year, and we know no DA members were frustrating his efforts. But somebody was picking on him, somebody was delaying him in spite of his determination, somebody made Draco cry. His mother his aunt? HA! they traipsed all the way to Spinners End to ensure his protection, just to stand in his way... no. We are told who it is, but maybe we just don't quite hear.. Snape wants all the Glory says Draco, Snape said the necklace was stupid says Draco, Snape won't be The Dark Lords favourite anymore says Draco He'll be nothing compared to me, nothing. Sound jealous much? frustrated Draco? 4. The night Harry and Dumbledore went to the cave, Snape sat quietly in his office. Not unusual? Maybe not, but he is fairly aware of Dumbledore's activities at least, he knows to some degree that Dumbledore is taking down Voldemort in secret, and yet he sits in his office? Snape knows that Dumbledore destroyed a powerful magical object obviously precious to Voldemort and he sits and waits like a good little double agent. Does Snape want them both dead? Perhaps, but won't explain why Voldie doesn't know that things obviously precious to him are going missing right under his nose or why he seems to be doing bugger all about it... 5. From the above we can assume only two things, Snape wants Voldemort dead, or Snape wants both DD and LV dead.. In any case (I have other reasons to believe it's the first, but not now, not now) Snape would willingly participate in... SHINY GOLD PASHMINA - Souls Horcruxes Individually Never Yield - Giving Our Lives for his Death - Prejudiced Against Snape, Harry Misinterprets Involvement in Noble Albus' Sacrifice. From katya_de_leon at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:35:36 2005 From: katya_de_leon at yahoo.com (jade_silverwind) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:35:36 -0000 Subject: Various replies: Fleur, Karkaroff In-Reply-To: <42DD15E8.8000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133340 > little Alex: > Because quite frankly, Fleur had done nothing wrong except > being beautiful (and French) and wanting to marry her son. > Molly's treatment of the girl is, imho, absolutely horrible. > So's Hermione's and Ginny's, while I'm at it. Maybe you are forgetting that Fleur's grandmother is a Veela. Men are extrememly drawn to Veela magically and women resent this. I figured, personally, it was only the natural disgust women feel towards Veela (or, in this case, part Veela) when their men are involved. Yes, it's prejudiced, but it's also understandable since Veela seem to put a spell over men in general. Fleur was able to get past this once she proved herself and her love for Bill. This isn't entirely different than the disgusted terrified reactions people initially have with Snape. And in Fleur's case, you must admit she acted a bit of a snob in regards to the Weasley house, Molly's taste in music, etc. That doesn't exactly endear one to a future MIL. > Lisa: > too cowardly to return- Karkaroff? > gone forever- ???? > most faithful servant- Snape? Okay, at the time, I believe Snape was considered too cowardly to return since he took 2 hours to get there after the call was made. (Therefore, arriving after the battle was over. His late arrival is explained in Ch 2 of book 6). Canon, GOF: "One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course..." Karkaroff was the one gone forever with no intentions of returning and it is mentioned in HBP that he is indeed now dead. His most faithful servant was Barty Crouch, Jr. who was impersonating Mad-Eye Moody with Polyjuice Potion at Hogwarts. Or, at least, these are my guesses. ~Kate (using up post #3 for the day!). From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 03:50:05 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:50:05 -0000 Subject: Valky's Confession - Snape is my Hero now..... (still love Marauders though) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133341 I wrote: > Does Snape want them both dead? Perhaps, but > won't explain why Voldie doesn't know that things obviously precious > to him are going missing right under his nose or why he seems to be > doing bugger all about it... Oops, cut and paste error, darn it, now I have to use my last post to correct myself... Snape wanting them both Dead *would* explain why Voldie is doing nothing about it... but we are still left with those two choices, we are 100% not left with LoyalDE!Snape. Like I said, I have some *other* reasons for proudly wearing a Shiny Gold Pashmina, but there is so much time to get into all that... Valky a Newly reformed Snapeophile through and through... From henning2 at terra.com.br Wed Jul 20 03:37:10 2005 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:37:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as a Living Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133342 01. The horcrux in the cave (HBP/26) wasn't the locket, *but the potion itself.* 02. The only way to take the potion-horcrux out of the basin was to drink it. 03. Whoever drinks it would become a living horcrux. 04. A living horcrux is bound to be controlled by the horcrux's owner, as suggested in HBP/24. 05. To destroy a living horcrux it is necessary to kill it. 06. Dumbledore knew all this since the first page and willingly sacrificed himself. 07. Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him when the time comes, and Snape agreed. So: 08. Dumbledore was not stupid and caught off guard; he planned his own death to be significant. 09. Having drunk the potion, Dumbledore started to fight against possession, much like Harry in OotP/36. 10. He needed to be killed as soon as possible; that's why he asked for Snape in HBP/28. 11. In the end, he feared Snape wouldn't be able to kill him; so he begged Snape to be killed (HBP/28). 12. But Snape had done his homework -- the Unbreakable Vow -- and killed Dumbledore as planned. Now I will reread HBP and see if all this makes sense. Your comments will be appreciated. -- Celebrimbor From feklar at verizon.net Wed Jul 20 03:58:40 2005 From: feklar at verizon.net (feklar42) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:58:40 -0000 Subject: Potion in the cave Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133343 I just finished HBP and am still digesting...and contemplating the mountainous backlog of spoilers with great trepidation, but I have to ask, what people's theories are on why the potion had to be drunk rather than just poured out? My only theory is that is the *intention* to drink that allows one to bypass the barrier. If intention were the key, it could have been scooped up with a hand rather than a cup or anything else. Still, I was wondering why Harry didn't at least suggest trying to dump it out before drinking. It seems like a pretty obvious question to ask when you think someone is about to poison themselves. Feklar From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Jul 20 04:02:57 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:02:57 -0000 Subject: Snape is Innocent! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > And I can prove it... > Dumbledore didn't die of an AK. > I think Dumbledore had a plan to save himself, though I > am not sure it worked. A combination of phoenix tears, > bezoar and perhaps one last vial of the Elixir of Life might > have saved him, if he had time to take them on the way down. > Time will tell. I've taken the liberty of forming an > acroynm: SAD DENIAL II. (Supposing Albus Dumbledore, > Dire Events Negated, Is Actually Living, Is Irresistible.) > Not sure about that combination, but here's a scenario for you: Albus goes to find the locket horcrux, and finds that it has been replaced. He then takes a supply of "Draught of living death" from Slug's potion lessons (brewed in Ch. 9), and pours it in. Notice how he keeps nearly falling asleep? He then talks with Draco, and suggests faking Draco's death right in front of Harry, hoping he'll get the hint or things to come. Then Snape comes in, yells "Avada Kedavra!", and then does silent magic (which we know he is good at, also from Ch. 9) to make it appear as if the killing curse has been cast. Albus then falls off the tower and breaks his spine. Or not, as the case may be. (Cushioning charm, anyone?) Then the Draught kicks in. At the funeral, Snape uses polyjuice to attend as a little tufty-haired man. He tosses a smoke bomb in at the appropriate moment, Fawkes swoops in, grabbing Albus, vanishes in flame, and Snape triggers the spells to complete the transfiguration into a tomb. Or something like that. Of course, I came up with this idea before I realised, due to a post on another forum, that Pettigrew has been impersonating Dumbledore all year. This would be a redeemed Peter, naturally. --- "Did you find it useful?" "Not really." "No, I thought not. You have not asked me, for instance, what is my favorite flavor of jam, to check that I am indeed Professor Dumbledore and not an imposter." --- I'm rereading, and haven't seen Dumbledore twinkle yet, and don't recall him offering anyone lemon drops. He seems a bit OOC at times, and seems, IMO, to act more like a marauder then the headmaster, occassionally. Also, observe his words when drinking the potion: "It's all my fault, my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." ... "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..." These seem very much like things Peter would say... I'm still trying to reconcile the theories, mind, and figure out if there are any showstoppers. And I'm not sure how likely either is... --Arcum From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:39:06 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:39:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133345 Sienna wrote: > Guys, I can't say I'm convinced either way but several things > just don't add up, and its not just the shipping. Lots of > people act out of character and many things don't add up. > Things just are not what they seem. Even Hermione and Ron's > reaction to hearing the prophecy is entirely off-kilter. Ok, first I'll just quickly introduce myself: my name is Adair, this is my first post in this group, but I have been a frequent lurker for years. I haven't had time to catch up on all the posts written since one p.m. today (I had two classes), so I'm kind of jumping into this thread, and if I annoy anyone with my overzealous... er, presumptuousness, then feel free to tear my opinion apart. That said, here I go: I feel that these thoughts, or at least, Sienna's in particular (and this is in no way an attack, I'm stating an opinion about myself just as much as everyone else) are a product of inherent bias. Let me explain. This book, to me, was one of JKR's greater achievements in planning. I in no way felt that things were off kilter. The ships worked, and I thought the prophecy reaction was typical. I always assumed, as Ron's and Hermione's characterization confirmed for me in this book, that they believed Harry would always end up being a sort of "Chosen One." So to them, the prophecy would have been nothing new, just an outward statement of fact. I think we as readers believe the prophecy to have been a bigger deal than those who grew up with Harry being "The Boy Who Lived." Rufus kind of brought this home, too - he seems to just accept that the wizarding world does see Harry as "Chosen." Harry is, after all, the one who defeated Voldemort last time (in a manner of speaking). Sienna wrote: > And I must say, that I think there are startling similarities > between Harry's infatuation with Ginny and Ron's infatuation > with Lavendar. Not being able to stop thinking about her, > reacting with violent anger at the thought of someone else with > her, acting automatically on instinct, the `monster' in his > chest. I think there is something more here than just wishful > thinking. I really do. Now as for the ships: I didn't see Ron as infatuated with Lavendar, and I thought the Harry/Ginny stuff was great. Not because I have always been an adament Harry/Ginny shipper, on the contrary, if anything I supported Ron/Hermione, and those two just got on my nerves in this book. Now, I am twenty-years-old, and Ron and Hermione's actions, considering they're now seventeen, were dead on. Because that is exactly how I remember all my high school peers acting, including myself I am ashamed to admit. If we didn't act on the impulses, we at least thought them. I felt Ron was just looking for some action in retaliation to Hermione making out with Krum; I read the Time interview with Rowling last night, and she pretty much said the same thing. That Ron realized Harry, and even Hermione, had gotten some, and he hadn't even come close. But my point is, that I never felt for an instant that Ron genuinely liked Lavendar - as far as I could tell, he saw her simply as a girl with a mouth. Harry/Ginny, however, I am in full support of now. And for this reason only: she made Harry Potter happy. Unlike with Cho, whom we know is a girl Harry was infatuated with, he seems to actually spend real time with Ginny (granted, not much of this was depicted, but I think it can be assumed - I did feel this book was over-edited); he jokes with her, talks to her, they share common interests and memories, and they hang out with Ron and Hermione together (something Cho couldn't abide). I have never been a gigantic shipper, as they are rather superfluous to the plot, but again, Ginny made Harry happy, so she has my vote. Sienna finished with: > Otherwise, I would have to accept that Rowling has lost her > touch and was unable to deliver realistic romantic scenarios > (even if they did have to involve Harry/ Ginny). I think > Rowling might have been having a go at ALL the ships in this > one actually and if this is right, then she is capable of a > subtlety that I cannot help but admire. Back to what I said before, I tried to look at the happenings in this book completely objectively (which is impossible, but I tried). My inherent biases have always been pro-Dumbledore, anti-Snape, pro-Ron/Hermione, ambiguous to Harry with anyone, etc. This last quote of Sienna's implies she has never been a big fan of the idea of Harry/Ginny. And a lot of the posts I have read today left me with a bad taste in my mouth concerning Snape, because honestly, I'm with Harry, and am ready to write Severus off as a bad job. I could digress and explain why I feel this way, because I have read the opinions to the contrary, and I understand them, I just can't go along with them. But again, this is all my opinion, in relation to my own biases. My argument is simply this: I feel that anyone who supported Harry with Hermione, or at least didn't support him with Ginny, will have felt something was wrong with this book. The same goes for the events with Snape, Ron/Hermione, etc., ad infinitum. I giggled when I began to read some of the posts from today, because I expected a lot of the opinions that came up. I don't necessarily think they're wrong, we have one more book to find out, but they are not my opinions, and book six agreed with everything I thought might happen (well, except for Ron and Lavendar, which was gross, and Hermione being more annoying than usual, which bothers me, because I definitely have a Hermione streak when it comes to school), so of course, I loved it. But when it comes to some things, like Harry/Hermione, I don't know how Rowling will suddenly fit that into one more book, especially since she said in the Cubs interview from a few days ago, that she expects book seven to be shorter than Phoenix. I wonder what else the full Mugglenet interview will reveal. Just my two cents. But JKR didn't disappoint me with this book, and I hope others enjoyed it, too. Adair From rosered2318 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:28:29 2005 From: rosered2318 at yahoo.com (rosered2318) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:28:29 -0000 Subject: How would Voldemort find out? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133346 "I'm sorry Harry, I should have said that Voldemort would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island. He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he, alone, knows about his Horcruxs." (HBP, Ch 26, Scholastic p569) This quote strikes me. After the second read-thru of HBP, my secondary reaction was "How would Voldemort find out about the intruders and their purpose?" As Voldemort did not show up to AK Harry and DD as they were emptying the basin, I am assuming there was not a magical alarm associated with entering the cave or drinking the potion and if it was associated with the awakening of the Inferi, that would not allow Voldemort enough time to get to the cave. But, as often with JKR's work, the surprise does not come from the "who" or the "how" but the effect that it has or the circumstances around which it occurs . Some problems I forsee with thinking of this phrase as suspect start with the ring and end with how Voldemort would be notified of the intrusion. If Voldemort has set a magical recording device around this Horcrux, then was there one around the ring? If not, why not? If so, how would Voldemort know that there was something to see? It would appear as if there was no "alarm" activated. But this phrase allows us an insight into Voldemort's mind that makes a little too much sense for me to just pass it off. The interesting side note (pun intended) - our mysterious Mr. R.A.B (whom I am assuming is Regulus Black) still has his note in the basin. This means that Voldy found out about his treachery some other way and did not bother to retrieve the phony or perhaps left it there out of spite for the next in line. Perhaps he has placed the real locket somewhere else or it was destroyed. Another incidental side note - Regulus must have been killed by Voldy personally if DD was correct about Voldy not wanting anyone else to know about the Horcruxs' (even Lucius didn't know about the Diary's true purpose until afterwards) Based on DD's quote, I am going to assume that Voldemort knows Harry is now looking for his Horcrux. The question I now ask is how is this going to affect Harry's ability to find and destroy them. Rose From harryp at stararcher.com Wed Jul 20 03:39:23 2005 From: harryp at stararcher.com (ecaplan_52556) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:39:23 -0000 Subject: SPOILER WARNING: What about Harry's Soul? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133347 SPOILER SPACE "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > ... Harry might be the last of Voldemort's Horcruxes ... I had the same thought, and it occurs to me that this fits many of the themes and foreshadowing that have come up to now: * Self-sacrifice: (Harry's Mother and Dumbledore) -- Harry could sacrifice himself to save the Wizarding World. * Harry's family is already dead (Mom, Dad, Sirius, Dumbledore). Would he be happier to be with them than without? * Voldemort would never (NEVER!) anticipate Harry's strategy, thus making him more vulnerable. * (OotP, pg 814): "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort. "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore * "The boy who lived" must die to fulfill his destiny. * To fulfill the prophecy: "Neither can live while the other survives." Plus, it's so totally awesomely creepy! "ecaplan_52556" From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 20 04:09:44 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:09:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> References: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42DDCE88.1040400@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 133348 Katherine: WARNING! SPOILERS FOR BOTH LOTR AND HBP >* >* >* >* >* >* > >We have: > >1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring >2. Evil giant spiders >3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; >Dead Marshes in LOTR) >4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the >leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) >5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) >6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) >7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past >(Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). >8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; >C'ent'aurs in HP) > >Any others I've missed? > heather now: Well, this is an old, old topic (there are websites devoted to comparisons), but there are a few fresh additions after HBP. Like the ring, of course. One I noticed was the phoenix's lament... a magical sad song that seems to fill them with the utter despair of the loss of Dumbledore. This is very much like the elves' lament for Gandalf in Lothlorien. And I already mentioned that DD's sacrifice was a lot like Gandalf's, and all the 'white' imagery around it reminiscent of Gandalf's return. Heck, the Dementors are a lot like the Black Riders. The comparisons are really too numerous to enumerate all of them... heather the buzzard From mnkmurphy885 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:52:04 2005 From: mnkmurphy885 at yahoo.com (kate885) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:52:04 -0000 Subject: Dallas Theory - Shipping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133349 (Long time lurker lured out from under a rock by all the nifty HBP theories) I do 'ship both H/G and R/Hr, but that's not why I'm responding- it's just that I feel that the "It's a Love Potion Thing" Theory makes little sense. Neil wrote: (snipped lots) >I think the potion is much more powerful than Slughorn realizes and >that from this point on, all three will be affected, but only if >they come in contact with one of the scents they smelled. Kate now: Considering that Slughorn seems to be more than a dab hand at potion- making, the first point seems a bit far-fetched. Haven't all the potions we've seen in HP so far needed to be drunk or applied to the skin to experience their effects? And, as far as the smell goes, considering that each smells differently to each person, depending on their own previously formed preferences, the last point makes no sense at all. Did Harry not enjoy the smell of wood before he smelled the potion, or Hermione fresh-cut grass? The potion seems to have no effect whatsoever on the preferences of the one smelling it; the preference is already there. Neil wrote: >We as readers are accustomed to potions that wear off quickly. To >accept this theory you must be willing to accept that this potion >lasts months perhaps forever if not canceled out. Kate now: Sorry, nope. Slughorn may be, well, rather impressed with class and influence, but he's not an idiot unqualified for his position, and in order for this theory to work, he would have to be exceptionally thick. Neil wrote: >The first example of Hermione greatly out of character is when she >helps Ron to make the Quidditch. Hermione does not cheat and would >probably feel Ron better off with the extra study time. Kate now: Actually, Hermione helped Ron and Harry out quite a bit in previous books; in fact, she completely re-worked one of Ron and Harry's Astronomy essays in OotP, a profound departure from her normal nagging, after Ron receives the "Harry is a Crazy, Attention-Seeking Git" letter from Percy: "Hermione was looking at Ron with an odd look on her face. 'Oh, give them here,' she said abruptly. 'What?' said Ron. 'Give them to me, I'll look through them and correct them,' she said." Chapter 14, OotP (page 268, British paperback ed.) While I agree that the Confundus charm was unusual behavior for Hermione, so was the example I just cited. Hermione has a bit of a soft spot for Ron. Saying that she was acting 'out of character' is a bit strong, IMHO. Her behavior is just as easily explained by her obvious crush on Ron, as well as her age. Sometimes a crush is just a crush. Neil wrote: >Now over night Harry gets the hots for Ginny and Ron, who supposedly >loves Hermione, starts kissing sessions with Lavender Brown. I don't >know what either smells like at the present time, but I'm sure at >some point Harry refers to Ginny smelling like flowers at the >Burrow. Kate now: Harry's reaction to Ginny can most easily explained by the fact that he is now a sixteen year-old boy. Ron's behavior makes perfect sense in a sixteen year-old boy fashion as well, as he was quite upset by Ginny's revelation regarding Hermione's kiss with Krum. Jealousy, thy name is Ron (and Hermione!). And regarding the last bit, I believe that Harry noticing that the smell from the Burrow that he found so enticing was Ginny's smell was just a subconscious clue that he found her appealing, as I believe that the potion's action was simply to smell like things the smeller already found attractive. Neil wrote: >If this was all love potion than ships remain as they were in book >5. Nothing gained, nothing lost. H/G most certainly isn't ruled >out; actually if it is to happen, it will now seem more believeable. >The big point to me is that if they were under the influence of a >potion then the shipping was not written poorly, but instead, >exactly as it should have been. Also, we have a reason why are >characters were at times acting out of character. The trio was all >under the influence of the potion. Kate now: I don't see the way the 'ships (R/Hr and H/G) were portrayed in HBP to be poorly written at all, nor did the characters seem "out of character" to me. Actually, I found them to be quite realistic, almost painfully so. Haven't many of us (especially in our teenage years) had relationships that began much the same way, suddenly realizing what was under our noses, like Harry, or flailing toward a lover by using our jealousy like a weapon, like poor Hermione and Won-Won? I honestly feel that the use of the love-potions in HBP was comic- relief, instead of fodder for conspiracy theories. I really feel that if JKR used the Dallas theory it would be more clich?d than the way the romance is currently portrayed, and not nearly as emotionally honest ~~Kate (mnkmurphy885) From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:52:28 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:52:28 -0000 Subject: What we didn't find out ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133350 Susan wrote: > I thought we were going to find out about someone who does magic late > in life. Maybe that is still to come, though. And I for one am still > not satisfied with what we have found out about Lily so far. I want > to know more! I agree, I agree. I think the thing that annoyed me the most were the numerous unanswered questions about DD: what did he see in the Mirror of Erised (book one)? what did he see when he took that potion? why on earth would he believe Snape could be repentant about James and Lily dying? how did he acquire Fawkes? more questions: who the heck is R.A.B? what happened to Grimmauld Place (without Harry there)? does Harry still have the pieces of Sirius' mirror? why is Harry only visiting his parents' graves now? what is the deal with Petunia? what did Dudley see when he and Harry were attacked by the two dementors? how does Harry even know about Godric's Hollow (did I forget a conversation where someone mentioned it to him, or does he just know somehow)? what will happen to Kreacher once Harry leaves Hogwarts? who will be Head Girl if Hermione doesn't return (assuming Hogwarts stays open)? where is the blasted car from book 2? I could go on... and on... and on... Adair From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:18:48 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:18:48 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <42DDCE88.1040400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133351 wrote: > >We have: > >1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring >2. Evil giant spiders >3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; >Dead Marshes in LOTR) >4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the >leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) >5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) >6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) >7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past >(Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). >8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; >C'ent'aurs in HP) > >Any others I've missed? > lealess: Others have noted HP similarities to LOTR: http://www.mugglenet.com/hpvslotr.shtml Let's suppose that this story is (slowly) following the outline of The Lord of the Rings. We have an initially reluctant, heroic young man, set to do a daunting task and right wrongs from the past We have friends going off on the great adventure, forsaking their comfortable but changing homeworld We have other warriors for the good fighting on other fronts (the Order) We have, of course, the great wizard, now gone Let's not forget the great, non-human evil itself And he's got a posse We have the many non-DE supporters of evil on the home front, either active (Fudge) or passive (Borgin & Burkes) We have the would-be warlords aligned with evil (Lucius Malfoy) We have the flawed principalities (Ministry, Durmstrang) We have leaving an ideal place for a darker world of doom and destiny So... what's left? Pathetic Gollum. The one who saves the day! Who is Gollum in the story? It couldn't really be Dobby, could it? Suppose it's Severus Snape What can we expect from him, then? He will do something wholly selfish which will save the day What would cause him to do that wholly selfish thing? Dark Arts? the past? Or is Snape Wormtongue? no, that's probably Wormtail Or is Snape Boromir? that's probably Draco Aragorn? The Half-Blood Prince, reclaiming his throne? From crogirli at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 03:50:08 2005 From: crogirli at yahoo.com (Carolyn) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:50:08 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133352 Krista wrote: "So why didn't he bring Snape all along, hmm? Snape's scrawny, so his weight in the boat wouldn't have been a problem; you can't make me believe, seriously, Snape's magic will register in the cave and Harry Potter's *won't*" When Dumbledore addressed this point, he said that it was because of his status as an underage wizard/young wizard that his level of magic would not register. Krista: "I do not think you will count, Harry: You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year -old to reach this place: I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine" (Rowling 564). This is a weakness in Voldemort because obviously Harry Potter deserves more credit than a stereotype of the average abilities of a 6th year Hogwarts student ("Voldemort's mistake, Harry . . . Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth.") Just wanted to make the point that I still don't think he could've taken Professor Snape on the boat even if he had wanted to because he is a fully trained, grown wizard. And on that note, I am completely devastated at Dumbledore's death and somewhat convinced that Professor Snape (Dumbledore's constant correction of Harry has rubbed off on me too!) is still with the Order. I don't know why, and I don't know how, but I still have some faith. Carolyn From kbrandon at cbu.edu Wed Jul 20 03:54:34 2005 From: kbrandon at cbu.edu (=?iso-8859-1?q?K=E4ren_Brandon?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:54:34 -0000 Subject: How do you destroy a horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133353 Peggy, I don't believe that AD ever specified how a horcrux is destroyed, but HP has already had experience with it, right? He destroyed Riddle's diary by puncturing it with the basilisk fang in CoS. From that, we may be able to assume that destroying the object will destroy the horcrux. After all, in the memory from the Pensieve, Gaunt's ring was not cracked, but when HP sees it on AD's hand, it's cracked. Just my thoughts, K?ren From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Wed Jul 20 04:22:55 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:22:55 -0000 Subject: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133354 >From a recent interview: Gillian MacKay for BBC Radio Scotland - Is there a potential question you have not been asked that you would be expected to ask, and what would it be? JK Rowling: I touched on that the last time I gave a reading from Phoenix at the Edinburgh Book Festival and I said that I had never been asked why didn't Voldemort die when he attacked Harry. Has anyone finished Half?Blood Prince yet? Good going! Well those people will now know the answer. (The rest of the interview is available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/4690885 .stm) I think this may (IMHO) support the theory that Harry's scar is a horcrux. (Now, if we know that James is a pureblood, is it possible that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor and if so, would that further supoort the scar-as-horcrux theory?) Anyways, read the rest of the interview. Very enlightening. Kathi From crabtree at ktc.com Wed Jul 20 04:23:48 2005 From: crabtree at ktc.com (Jo) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:23:48 -0000 Subject: Connecting HBP with what JKR said about the third movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133355 JKR told us that when she saw the Azkaban movie, there were scenes put in that would appear to have been place there on purpose, because they fit so well with the story she is unfolding. I can't help but think of the scene in the movie where Lupin is talking to Harry about his parents. He tells Harry that his mother could "see the good in others even when they couldn't see it in themselves." Slughorn also tells us over and over what a good Potions student Lily was. There is not doubt that "Prince Severus" was also an excellent Potions student (judging from Harry's luck with his book and Snape's teaching field.) I was just wondering - Did Gryffindor and Slytherin have Potions together during the Marauders' era? Could Lupin include Snape as one of those in which Lily saw the "good?" Is it possible that Snape hates Harry so much because he is James's son instead of his own? Did Voldemort promise Snape that he would kill James and Harry but spare Lily? Does Snape see Harry as responsible for him having to kill Dumbledore? Just wondering --- Jo From glcasmith at socket.net Wed Jul 20 03:56:01 2005 From: glcasmith at socket.net (glcasmith14) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:56:01 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133356 I have expected Dumbledore to die in book 6 or 7 for a while now. It's a standard plot, the mentor dies so the student has to set out on his own. But, the entire Dumbledore death scene in this book makes no sense to me. One of the glaring issues is his freezing of Harry. If he hadn't frozen Harry, he could have stopped Draco and probably the other death eaters as well. I know Dumbledore was seriously weakened, but come on, this is the same Dumbledore who defeated an entire room of ministry personnel in OOTP. Also he's the only wizard Voldemort fears. Surely he could have handled Draco and a couple of second rate Death Eaters even in his condition. Many have used the arguement that it was to protect Harry. How can you protect Harry by making him helpless? If he's worried about Harry's safety, why not stun Draco and then Harry and Dumbledore could ride their brooms to safety before the other DE's arrived (DD had a lengthy conversation alone with Draco before the others arrived) Besides, when has DD seemed so concerned about Harry's safety that he keeps him from facing a few minions of Voldemort? Harry has faced DE's before. Freezing Harry did keep him hidden for a little while, but what happened the instant DD was killed and Harry was freed from the spell? Harry did just what he would have done if DD hadn't frozen him in the first place, he began to attack the DE's, only now Harry does not even have the help from a weakened DD, but is completely on his own. So how could it protect Harry for DD to freeze him and let himself be killed to then leave Harry to face the DE's alone? I just can't take this chapter of the book at face value, there has to be something else going on, or it just doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, none of the theories I have seen yet seem very satisfying. glcasmith From joi_foley at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 04:02:46 2005 From: joi_foley at hotmail.com (makemeatree) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:02:46 -0000 Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133357 "jakedjensen" : > I always thought that Q had been in the position for at least > a year prior. Even if Q has taught somewhere else before, how > would Hagrid know that his is scared of his students? In > addition, no one talks about how Q is a new instructor in book > one. Usually, the new instructor is picked apart by the students > at the beginning of each year. I re-read this bit, too. I guess....it's more of a mistake, really, but I didnt have to give it much thought to rationalize it. It could be two things, or both, maybe: It could be that Quirrell was a student at Hogwarts, and then took the position, but before doing so, studied, traveled, got posessed by LV, etc. And/or it could be that Quirrell was a teacher at Hogwarts, teaching something else, and that yr was just his first yr teaching DADA. This would explain why people knew him already, knew his personality previous to the traveling, and why students didn't talk too much about him being 'new'. ..j. From mnkmurphy885 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:10:46 2005 From: mnkmurphy885 at yahoo.com (kate885) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:10:46 -0000 Subject: RAB- Andromeda? Spiders? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133358 Regarding R.A.B., am I completely crazed in thinking that Regulus's companion (as the negotiating the defenses of the cave apparently requires a second person) and owner of the initials A.B. might be his cousin Andromeda Black (now Tonks)? She's a Slytherin, we know that for sure now, but she's also a blood-traitor, and maybe she would have been easier for Regulus to turn to than his rash Gryffindor brother? The biggest problem I have with this theory is that Dumbledore thinks that only one person could fit in the boat. But, as someone pointed out, Kreacher doesn't seem like a good fit for a lot of reasons, and surely Reg needed some help? If Dumbledore and Harry had difficulties, surely Regulus couldn't have pulled off his little heist solo. Also, has anyone noticed all the references to spiders? Spinner's End, Aragog, the spiders in the Weasley's broom shed... lots and lots of spiders. Methinks Jo is trying to tell us something. Perhaps someone is trapped in a web of there own making? But is it Snape or Dumbledore? Or perhaps both? Any brilliant thoughts? Mine are a little tarnished :) ~~Kate (mnkmurphy885) From hpdmieboq at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:23:38 2005 From: hpdmieboq at yahoo.com (hpdmieboq) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:23:38 -0000 Subject: thoughts on HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133359 OK, so, obviously I haven't gotten through all the posts yet so if I reiterate something that has already been discussed to death, I'm sorry. The first question I have that has been eating away at me is this quote: "...never been able to keep a DADA teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to LV." (Scholastic p446, Ch 20: LV's Request) but, what about Quirrel? I'm pretty sure that Book one wasn't his first year, was it? Sorry, if someone can figure this out it's really been bothering me. The other thing that needs to be addressed is Snape. I just can't belive that DD was SO wrong. There just has to be something more. I did wonder however if Snape somehow made a Horcrux from DD's murder. I'm not saying that he murdered DD purely to make a horcrux, but since we don't know the exact process of making one, how 'spur of the moment' can it be? I also saw that no one had really mentioned the inferi and I for one am really curious how they come about and what they actually do. One thing also that made me think that JKR is a genius is the Vanishing Cabinets and how we were introduced to one in CoS and I'm assuming there was some off hand mention of Montague getting stuck in one in OotP that none of us took notice of. I also became aware of how very close Harry got to being stuck in one. I have many more thoughts jumping around in my head that don't make sense even to me so I'll post some more later. The main thing that I liked about this book is all the humor in it, it made me laugh out loud- "I am a Wizard, not a baboon waving a stick"- brilliant! Or how in the presence of all the snogging and relationships the Gryf. Password became abstinence! Anyway, those are my two cents. -Irka From mommy2maddyrose at aol.com Wed Jul 20 04:02:14 2005 From: mommy2maddyrose at aol.com (Hollie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:02:14 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord's secret Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133360 Juli: > LV's secret is how he became *immortal*, the Horcruxes are his > secrets, nobody know about them (not even Lucius who's in the inner > circle) I thought the same thing about the secret, but for some reason it just popped into my head, that maybe that's not the secret at all. LV told the DE in GoF that they knew the steps he had taken, so why wouldn't R.A.B. know too? What if the secret is that LV is not pure-blood? Bella sure didn't like Harry bringing that point out into the open. That seems like another reason for him to be killed. Just a thought. Hollie From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:31:05 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:31:05 -0000 Subject: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133361 Kathi wrote: > I think this may (IMHO) support the theory that Harry's scar > is a horcrux. (Now, if we know that James is a pureblood, is > it possible that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor and if so, > would that further supoort the scar-as-horcrux theory?) Ok, I see your point (rather crafty, by the way), but I think it needs to be wondered if Voldemort has to intentionally create a Horcrux. DD said he would have created one had he killed Harry (from Harry's murder), but he didn't succeed, which led me to believe that no Horcrux was created that night (and Voldemort leaving the scar was never intentional, which we know). Nagini would also then still have to be explained, as Rowling led us to assume she was the sixth horcrux. And if Harry were trying to kill Voldemort, and he had a horcrux on his head, how on earth would he ever be able to finish the Dark Lord off? Everytime he tried to kill him, Voldemort would remain as weird spirit-thing, ala books one-three. This, of course, would support the Harry and-Voldemort-must-kill-each-other theory. It's worth thinking about. Adair From rniche at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:39:29 2005 From: rniche at yahoo.com (rniche) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:39:29 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133362 Perhaps Harry needed to hear what Draco had to say without interrupting. Maybe Harry and Draco will need to work together to finish this thing. I hope not, because I'd like to see Draco meet a horrible end, but it's an idea. "rniche" From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:44:34 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:44:34 -0000 Subject: Lily and Potions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133363 Claire" wrote: > All through Slughorn's many pronouncements that Harry had inherited > Lily's potions mastery, I kept thinking, "no, her wand was best suited > for charms." That's what Ollivander said to Harry in SS/PS. While I > realize that a person can excel in more than one subject, it didnit > seem possible that for Lily it would be potions. So it begs the > question(s), for me, was Snape helping Lily? Did she somehow copy > from Snape's advanced potions book? How does that relate to Harry and > what she "bequeathed" to him via her eyes? > > HBP is presenting as many questions as it answered. The more I read > it (twice so far) the more things jump out at me. **Marcela now: I noticed that Hermione always thought that the writing looked like that of a woman's or girl's... She took a lot of teasing from the boys because of the Prince and not Princess connection... But maybe it was Lily's writing after all? Marcela From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 20 04:47:44 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:47:44 -0000 Subject: The Astute Mouth-Organ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133364 Hi, I haven't understood Harry's and Dumbledore's exchange about mouth- organ which DD even calls astute? WHat's a mouth organ got to do with destruction of the ring? Bye ADi Ps: I have at least read three times in full. Can't count the number of times I just dipped in parts. From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Wed Jul 20 04:51:26 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:51:26 -0000 Subject: ADAIR Re: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adairfletch" wrote: > And if Harry were trying to > kill Voldemort, and he had a horcrux on his head, how on earth > would he ever be able to finish the Dark Lord off? Everytime he > tried to kill him, Voldemort would remain as weird spirit-thing, > ala books one-three. This, of course, would support the Harry > and-Voldemort-must-kill-each-other theory. One of the central themes of the series is about love and sacrifice. It would make sense to me that, like Lily and DD before him, Harry would sacrifice his life for "the greater good". Thus, through the power of the love that would be necessary to do such a thing, it would be the final destruction of Voldemort. I don't know that Harry *has* to die, per se, but as with the Unforgivable Curse (and the potion in the cave), there must be the clear intention. Again, this is just a theory *smile* Kathi, who is still trying to work out why DD would allow Harry to trust Ron & Hermione, but no one else? From abha_j at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 04:42:41 2005 From: abha_j at yahoo.com (abha_j) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:42:41 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133366 Good point Carolyn! There are so many posts going on about how Snape should still be trusted. I disagree. There is nothing worse than AK, and the act of taking somebody's life, and Snape has clearly shown where his loyalty lies. I can not believe that so many people are still rooting for him. I think JK Rowling is not playing any games this time, and is telling us the truth, when Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa his reasons for sticking to DD and not killing Harry all these years. I think DD had to go in this book, so that Harry can really come into his own in the final book. The final book will be about the courage and wisdom of Harry Potter & his friends, the coming of age of the boy who has been more lucky than smart so far. So far, it was Dumbeldore that everybody looked up to, no more so. In HBP, Harry is already a lot more mature and less impulsive than he was a year back. Also, he has now seen that anybody can make mistakes in judgement, even DD. He has also learnt to trust his own instincts, e.g. regarding Snape. So the 7th book will not be about the carefully-laid plans of Dumbeldore, but will be about Harry and only Harry. All the best, Harry! I hate you , Snape. You spoiled the best book in the series for me. I miss DD! *sniff* - Abha From nantray at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 04:46:57 2005 From: nantray at hotmail.com (remarkably_raven) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:46:57 -0000 Subject: The Slytherin Locket... In-Reply-To: <001101c58ccc$c68948b0$c285cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133367 A continuation of the thread re: The remaining horcruxes Richelle wrote: "3. Slytherin's locket (missing, possibly in Grimmauld Place) The first two are taken care of, the third could be the easiest, if it's really the locket in Grimmauld Place. " Raven: I believe as well that they locket was originally at Grimmauld place because if you recall, when Sirius and the kids was there cleaning up, the did find a locket that they were unable to open...(On page 116 of Ootp.) So, we know there was a locket at Grimmauld place... however, is it still there ? Was it thrown away with the other bits and bobs that Sirius felt no more use for? Did Kreacher steal it back ? or did Mundungus pilfer it to sell.. We know he had other Black items he was selling when Harry calls him out on it in Hogsmeade !! "`You took that from Sirius's house,' (On Page. 245-246 HBP) Just a thought... Raven mourning.... From jackiestrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:05:14 2005 From: jackiestrey at yahoo.com (jackiestrey) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:05:14 -0000 Subject: DD master plan? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133368 Jacquelyn from Minnesota here and this is my first post. There are spoiler's in this, but I am pretty sure that most people have read the book by now. However, S P O I L E R S Upon completion of the sixth book, many things about Snape's attitude throughout the book and particularily at the end made me a little suspicious. For example: 1) Snape's strange meetins with Narcissa and Belatrix, was it mearly a ploy to help his undercover work? Did he really just make the Unbreakable Vow in order to convince Bella? Or, is Snape really bad? 2) Snape's strange attitude regarding Malfoy and his apparent lack of confidence. I was intrigued by this because it seems that what Snape really did not want to do was drive Draco away, which would explain his softness. 3) And of course, the apparent killing of DD, which I belive is real (more on that later). Up until this book I was had complete faith that Snape was good because DD trusted him, and my mind hasn't changed. Snape's behavior doesn't exactly merit a medal or anything, but I do think that there is some greater cause for Snape in the next book. I believe that DD had been planning his death all along. In order to keep a memeber of the Order as a spy, something drastic needed to take place in order for the Death Eaters and Voldemort to trust that Snape really had chosen a side. What better convincer is there than the killing of one of the two people that Voldemort hates the most? I also took the argument in the forest as DD's request and reminder of the things that Snape needed to do, which was of course killing him. And the pleading that DD does right before he is killed is a sure sign that DD was reminding Snape of his duties. It was not a pleading for his life, but for his death. I also believe that DD's death signifies something more important. If Harry had DD there to hold his hand throughout the next book, he would never grow up. DD would always be there to fix everything and I believe that JK Rowling needed some kind of maturity to take place in Harry before we depart. I believe that if Harry was ever going to fulfill the profecy, once and for all killing Voldmort, than DD needed to be out of the picture. That is why I think he is actually dead. Sirius, on the other hand, did not die with the finality that DD did. In DD's death, there is closure. Harry feels the lose and understands the weight that death holds over a person, and I personally don't believe that Harry really felt that with Sirius. Maybe I am just too much of a Sirius Black fan to let him die, but I cannot find as much actual proof (like the ending of the spell on Harry, the changing of offices, DD's portrait on the wall, etc.) in the death of Sirius. Jacquelyn From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 05:17:42 2005 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:17:42 -0000 Subject: The Snape Hater Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133369 My reading of the HBP turned me into a Snape hater. I used to enjoy the literary genius of Harry's black and white hatred of Snape until I read the OOTP. Their relationship gained a deeper level with Harry's trip into Snape's Worst Memory. We saw the human side to Serverus, and had to wonder what kind of a person Harry's father had been, now after the HBP, we have to wonder what kind of person Snape is. I know there have been many posts theorizing whether DD planned for Snape to kill him as a way for Snape to become Voldemort's 2nd in command, but to them I say this: what kind of character would kill the only person who has treated that character with nothing but trust and friendship? DD was the only person to stick by SS, he kept SS out of prison, He defended him to the Order, and he gave SS a job. What kind of person would be able to kill DD after DD had done all that for them even if it was part of DD plan? The answer is simple: a Death Eater could. Snape took from me my favorite character, and for that I vilify him. DD always believed the best in everyone, and surly that was his downfall with Snape, but can we fault DD for Snapes actions? DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to kill him like a dog in the dirt. For this, Snape is, in my book, worthy of death at the hands of Harry. In fact, I think I will start an I hate Snape group here on Yahoo! Snape is pure evil and in my eyes, should be treated as such for the reminder of the series. John who will be gauging the responses to find out if opening up a Snape hater club is worth it. From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 20 05:16:26 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:16:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: The Unbreakable Vow Message-ID: <42DDDE2A.000018.03252@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 133370 If this has been brought up before, I apologize. This list has been way too busy for my to keep up. When I first read the passage where DD drinks from the basin, realizes it is poison, and asks for Snape, I thought he wanted Snape for a remedy. Then I thought DD wanted Snape to keep his vow to kill him. I am now wondering what would have happened to Draco and Snape if DD had died from the basin contents and not from the hand of either Draco or Snape. If DD had died from the basin contents (killed indirectly by Voldemort) then Draco and Snape would have been released from their promises because Voldemort/DD would have beat them to it. That wasn't to happen. Now, since Draco was unable to fulfill his orders from LV, what is LV going to do to Draco because of his failure? If I remember correctly, Draco was under direct orders from LV while Snape had promised Draco's mother to complete Draco's job in case Draco could not finish it. The job was done but not as LV ordered. Is LV going to be angry with Snape, not for killing DD, but for taking it on himself to complete someone else's task without orders from LV to do so? Donna whose WAY behind in her post reading. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sro35 at webtv.net Wed Jul 20 05:13:30 2005 From: sro35 at webtv.net (sro35 at webtv.net) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:13:30 -0400 Subject: Something Strange Might Be Going On [Spoiler] In-Reply-To: HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com's message of 20 Jul 2005 01:00:54 -0000 Message-ID: <24836-42DDDD7A-7878@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133371 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Because of an eye injury I listen to the HP books instead of reading them so from time to time I might misspell a name or two. I am about one third of the way through HBP and something is really bothering me. I believe that there is something wrong with Dumbledore. I can't really pinpoint it but from the time that Dumbledore took Harry away from the Dursley house until the trips with the pensive that I have listened to so far, in my estimation, Dumbledore has been acting strangely. He just hasn't been the Dumbledore who we have come to know. Also, I have the strangest feeling that the revelation of the reason for Dumbledore's injured hand will be a true moment of horror for Harry. As I said, I have no proof, it is just a feeling. .........Stan _________________________________________ They have cradled you in custom, they have primed you with their preaching, They have soaked you in convention through and through; They have put you in a showcase; you're a credit to their teaching -- But can't you hear the Wild? -- it's calling you. Let us probe the silent places, let us seek what luck betide us; Let us journey to a lonely land I know. There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling. . .let us go........Robert Service From kaisenji at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:16:27 2005 From: kaisenji at yahoo.com (Kaisenji) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:16:27 -0000 Subject: HBP and ....other stuff.. (long & kinda sappy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133372 SPOILER........................................ S P O I L E R ----------- Ok now that is done. I closed the book about 6 hours ago as I had stuff to do before coming home. My reaction of course like many others was to burst into tears. I use to have no characters that I called my only spotlight favorite- Albus Dumbledore is and always will be my only spotlight fave. His eccentricness reminds me of myself at times while that incredible insightfulness into individuals both wizard and muggle yet still being very human makes him seem kinda Lama-like. Anyway, the book freakin rocks. I have no real opinion on it until I read it again and by this weekend I'll have more solid thoughts on it. I laughed out loud many times which of course made up for the shear nail biting moments laid out. All that snogging, the deeping respect and love between the trio and some pretty sharp observations on Harry's part proves everyone is maturing as they should save for a few laggers. So what I really wanted to post was my own HP memorial on Dumbledore from my live journal *sigh* I had to have some closure in regards to his death since he was such an important character. If he were real, I'd be every Hagrid like at his funeral....only I wouldn't have a brother the size of a redwood sitting next to me. Please feel free to correct me on those birth/death dates-I scrounded them based on the HP-Lexicon. Enjoy. Kai Albus Wulfric Percival Brian Dumbledore 1844-1995 ------------------------------------------ Albus Wulfric Percival Brian Dumbledore, Headmaster of Hogwarts and defender of the downtrodden was killed off in the current HP book "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince". I am broken because of this and have given Albus a proper witch send off even though he is no more than words on a page. To millions like myself, Albus Dumbledore was a real as any great character who sticks to your mind and heart. Without a doubt (if I may quote), Albus was the greatest Headmaster that Hogwarts had ever seen. His undying believe in others; his unshakeable faith in those around him leads me to believe that he is irreplaceable in spirit and body. Nobody will put that much effort into standing by someone as Albus did. He was much more clever than his enemies gave him credit. His ideas, though eccentric sometimes understood only by Dumbledore himself, often times more than not proved he was a cut above the rest of the wizarding world. If Albus Dumbledore believed in you, you had the best cheering section ever. I think most of all Harry will miss this. I think Snape too, will miss that unshakable faith. I'm unable to forget or forgive Snape as the 7th book is not out yet so I do not know the true role the slimy git played in Albus' death. If it proves not to be vengence but a previously thought out plan by Albus himself, I might reconsider the potion master's role. MIGHT. Someone has stated that Snape did the bravest thing of all-maybe he did. He set Harry free to destroy Voldemort once and for all by killing the only person the Dark lord feared would slow him down from destroying Harry. Snape also releases the love and power Albus had to flow into Harry. Perhaps that is what Potter needed to really prepare himself for the long battle to Voldemort's destruction. Because of Dumbledore's death, Potter will stand stronger for it-he know this now that his last security blanket is gone he can and will stand against the Dark Lord on the battlefield alone but far from helpless. Dumbledore gave his greatest gift in his final time with Harry-Love and Support with a healthy tossing of information to defeat the greatest evil. So while I shead tears for a character whom I can say is my favorite ever, I celebrate his homecoming into Harry. Albus is not gone, look into the eyes of a green-eyed 17-year old boy cursed with a lighting bolt shaped scar and you will see Albus Dumbledore's influence there. R.I.P. Albus Wulfric Percival Brian Dumbledore. We in the Potterverse will miss you terribly. The song I dedicate to you is: "Pearls and Tears" by Andreas Vollenweider Kaisenji Gypsyrose From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 05:26:04 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:26:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133373 Adagio said: "That said, here I go: I feel that these thoughts, or at least, Sienna's in particular (and this is in no way an attack, I'm stating an opinion about myself just as much as everyone else) are a product of inherent bias." Now me: Hi Adagio, I understand the reasons you say that but I'd like to point out that one thing HBP has clearly demonstrated is that everyone brings an inherent bias in one way or another to the book. (e.g. the least critical fans are likely to be those who have been rooting for H/G to happen and don't care how or why) Which I think is ironic, given one the main themes of the book is about the way we perceive things to be. You are correct in thinking that I did not expect (nor want) H/G. But that said, I was open to the possibility of it happening. The thing that threw me was not that it happened (or that Harry developed feelings) but the way it happened, the abruptness with which the subplot was delivered, and the way the behaviour of the trio changed to allow for it. Adagio again: "Let me explain. This book, to me, was one of JKR's greater achievements in planning." Me: I'm beginning to agree, but for different reasons I think. Again, I reiterate, it is not just the shipping (although I am going to do a reread and form my final opinions on that then). Several things were horribly out of whack: * Harry was expressive, eloquent and composed. This, despite it only being two weeks between the end of OotP and the start of HBP. Sirius's death hardly registers. Why? * Hermione, where are you Hermione? I can understand hormones, but Hermione acts out of character. It is one thing to be 16. It is another to go from retiring to aggressive in one book. It is like she becomes obsessed very shortly after the potions lesson. It's like they all did. * Suddenly everyone is snogging out in the open. In no previous books do the trio ever catch an older student in the common room. There is a small reference to Ginny catching Percy and Penelope in the broom closet in CoS but that is it. * Harry kisses Ginny in front of 50 people in the common room despite being awkward and embarrassed with Cho just the year before * Harry should not have been able to take potions but coincidentally is able to when Snape gets the DADA job ? despite Dumbledore admitting he didn't trust him up until then to do it? We are never given a reason why. Contrivance or something more subtle? * There is hardly any talk of classes, many things are entirely missing. Things we have come to expect and love about Hogwarts are no longer referred to. Where was McGonnagal? We only see her once. Where was Ron chewing with his mouth full. In fact, we hardly ever see them eating. Ron and Harry don't play chess once. * Harry's scar doesn't hurt him and barely gets referred to. He is not affected when Slughorn stares at it. * Harry's glasses are not broken despite Malfoy stepping on his face. Hermione doesn't even visit him when he is in Hospital after the Quidditch match (absolutely the first time that's ever happened). >From being the first at his side, her obsession to be with Ron suddenly takes over. * Hermione and Ginny argue over Harry ? when have these two ever had a foul word? Why doesn't Hermione respond to Ginny's rather rude attack? Why does Ginny feel the need to protect her territory? * Even Hermione and Ron's courting rituals seemed off-kilter. * Ginny could do no wrong. Her Bat Bogey Hex is referred to more than once and she is literally thrown in the readers face. When has JKR ever lacked subtlety? It wasn't believeable - it was Mary Sue. That strikes me as far too amateur to be right. Everything between them is perfect ? perfect understanding, perfectly attractive, perfectly funny, perfectly popular, perfectly charming. There are purposeful, in-your-face parallels drawn between Lily and Ginny. But their ending was off-kilter. Why does he not tell her about the prophecy? Why does he not protest when Ron and Hermione say they are coming with him if he's intent on going on alone? Aren't Ron and Hermione at *more* risk than Ginny? Would he care less if they died? Why does Ginny only manage a `twisted' smile and not shed a tear over their breakup? * Lavendar suddenly interested in Ron? Since when? * Dumbledore oh Dumbledore so much strangeness here. Why wear the ring after damaging your hand trying to destroy the holocrux? And there is much more. The only thing that makes sense to me is that there is something afoul in Hogwarts and that it has been embedded with a subtlety that is startling. It has something to do with Snape and LV's desire to eliminate Dumbeldore and Snape's knowledge of Harry and his friends. The trio are almost entirely out of whack with each other the entire year, until the very end. And then, when Harry looks forward to spending a peaceful day with Ron and Hermione at Bill's wedding, he doesn't have a thought in his head about the fact that Ginny will also be there. Unless you are committed to the ships as they occurred in HBP, then you can't help but notice the very many strange things about this book. I think it is all too coincidental that there are many references to potions (love, luck etc), the Dementors breeding (a creature that is all about mind-control), song lyrics about cauldron's and love, mist, so much out of character behaviour. Consider this quote from Snape regarding potions in Book 1: "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses.... Bewitching the mind. Ensnaring the sense. Doesn't it seem to reflect what HBP is all about? I could be wrong. It's happened before. :) And like I said, I think it is either a badly written and delivered book or a work of sheer brilliance and subtlety. Sienna From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 05:29:03 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:29:03 -0000 Subject: Finally know the important cut scene frome COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133374 One last post before I hit the sack.... Long ago, I started a thread (that started many debates) about what scene the screenwriter of COS tried to cut before JKR intervened saying the seemingly "cutable" scene was important for the plot of the series(for more info on this, just watch the interview with JKR and Kloves on the COS DVD). Anyway, I don't want to invoke the wraith of those who want this to only be a book post (that's cool), but HBP suggests that my prediction (which many others heartily tossed out as well) that the Knockturn Alley sequence in COS was the infamous "cut scene." Imagine trying to understand HBP without the basic information that we learn their (what Knockturn alley is, B & B's shop, that Draco has been there before, the Hand of Glory, etc.). It seems pretty likely that that is the scene in question; an important note for those (who come later or now) who might stumble across this interview and unravel it (hence it's application to a book-related discussion). Of course, it never hurts to keep thinking about these things, but just thought I would FYI this. Jake From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:17:59 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:17:59 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "glcasmith14" wrote: >> One of the glaring issues is his freezing of Harry. If he hadn't > frozen Harry, he could have stopped Draco and probably the other > death eaters as well. I know Dumbledore was seriously weakened, but > come on, this is the same Dumbledore who defeated an entire room of > ministry personnel in OOTP. Also he's the only wizard Voldemort > fears. Surely he could have handled Draco and a couple of second > rate Death Eaters even in his condition. I can only think that if you accept the possibility that DD was dying anyways (due to his infected hand or the green goo) that his death should at the very least serve the Order, so he asks for Severus immediately and stalls Draco so that Severus will have solid credibility with DE's and Voldie by killing an already dying man; than one could conclude that DD froze Harry to stop him from interfering, as he knows Harry has a "saving people" problem. casmir2012 From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:21:27 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:21:27 -0000 Subject: ADAIR Re: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133376 Kathi wrote: > One of the central themes of the series is about love and sacrifice. > It would make sense to me that, like Lily and DD before him, Harry > would sacrifice his life for "the greater good". Thus, through the > power of the love that would be necessary to do such a thing, it > would be the final destruction of Voldemort. I don't know that Harry > *has* to die, per se, but as with the Unforgivable Curse (and the > potion in the cave), there must be the clear intention. Oh, I completely agree, I just don't like to think about Harry possibly dying, it upsets me. But you know, you make a valid point - I just remembered that JKR said the last word of book seven is supposed to be "scar" (as she currently has the last chapter written, though we can assume it probably won't remain the way it is). I think my only hang-up with this theory is that the horcrux would not have been intentional. JKR keeps hinting that more happened that night, however, and Voldemort did lend some of his characteristics to Harry (or soul, if this theory is true), so I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. How disturbing would it be for Harry, though, can you imagine!? Possessing part of Voldemort's soul, how..... unequivocally creepy. Another thought I had: could even a part of Voldemort's soul survive in Harry, with all that love going on? If the scar is a horcrux, I suppose Harry could destroy it by just being himself. Lots and lots of questions, I still have... sigh. Adair, who still wonders what DD's look at the end of book four was about, and what happened to Ollivander From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Wed Jul 20 05:42:45 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:42:45 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Thoughts_On_HBP=97Oddities/Horcruxes/Snape/LOLLIPOPS/R.A.B?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133377 First off, I have to say that I enjoyed this book very much. Standing alone, it ranks as one of JKR's best. Yet before bestowing my praise upon HBP there are a few things which I just *have* to get off my chest; things which perplexed me a little: ? As a few others have noted JKR seemed a bit "checklisty" in the way she (none too subtly IMO) went about addressing certain concerns of the fandom. Chapter Two, especially seemed to work out very neatly by my reckoning; and when reading DD admonishing the Dursleys I couldn't help but think of a few *particular* HPfGU posters with a wry grin on my face. ? The shedding of a number of over-cooked sub-plots made for a leaner and more focused read IMO, but it still begs the question: why did JKR develop them in the first place? What happened to SPEW? Grawp? The DA? The Sorting Hat's Message? Neville? Don't get me wrong; I don't think this actually detracts from HBP?if anything, it detracts from OOTP: what was the *point* of all those different strands? If you ask me (and again this isn't a criticism of HBP in itself) JKR seems extremely conscious of the fact that she went *way* over length with OOTP, and here made a concerted effort to cut down. ? Probably the only way in which this detracted from the read, IMO was with regard to the characters and Hogwarts itself. Was it just me or did at times HBP feel as if it wasn't really written by JKR at all? I don't know about you, but I had a little trouble identifying many of the characters we've all grown to love over the series; the *dialogue*, in particular, always so distinctive, sometimes just felt flat. Hermione was far more dimwitted than usual in this book (maybe just the love bug kicking in there), and the less said about Ginny the better (one of the few parts of the book I actually hated was that nonsense at the end between her and Harry; almost as much as Lupin/Tonks yuck!!!). ? Finally (hurrah, I hear you cry!), Hogwarts. Usually it's so rich in detail, standing vivid in my imagination; I've always had the feeling that I was actually there. I didn't really get that feeling in this book; I can't expound on that musing any better, but did anyone else kinda share that feeling? Maybe you can help me explain myself a bit better So, I guess what I'm saying is that HBP just didn't quite "fit in" with the books preceding it. Still, it was, *on its own*, probably the best book since PoA for me. I did like Harry in this book. I did like the new characters Slughorn and Scrimgeour. I *loved* Malfoy? can't wait to see what happens to him and his family! The Horcruxes too were a very elegant way of tying things together. Like others, I have my suspicions that Harry is the sixth. During DD's explication I was *certain*, when he got to GH, that he was going to tell Harry as much, but alas, no. As for Snape? I'm still not sure about anything except that he really is at the very heart of it all! The idea that the death was prearranged with DD seems a little dodgy to me; my favored theory remains that Snape is in it for himself and, motivated by some sort of personal grievance with Voldy, wants to bring him down himself if he can manage it. As to his actions in HBP, my view is that, in a moment of weakness, he acceded to Narcissa (hmmm any history between these two?) and entered into the UV. I think Snape probably guessed that Draco wouldn't be up to cold-blooded murder, and to preserve his own life (and thus his chance of revenge against Voldy!), was forced into a situation where he had to murder DD himself. Yet Snape, knowing Voldy's penchant for playing favourites and `rewarding' his helpers, probably feels he's now got Voldy right where he wants him, and I for one believe the Half-Blood Prince is a match for him I'm thinking also that LOLLIPOPS can only have been strengthened by HBP (as much as I dislike that theory). I can't believe that DD would buy all that claptrap about Snape's "remorse" re: the Prophecy and the Potters, when he knew full well that Snape despised James. I can only think that DD was aware of something between Snape and Lily, whether it be unrequited love, etc, or perhaps even something more simple than that (eg. Snape and Lily as potions buddies? I'm sure they must at least have had a healthy respect for each other's abilities ) Also liked the R.A.B touch at the end. Like everyone else my first thought was Regulus Black; but I'm still not quite sure. I've also been thinking of the possibility of it being one of the proprietors of Borgin & Burkes, most likely Burke. Can anyone tell me what *his* first name was??? As for Harry not going back to Hogwarts, at least not in the normal sense, I'm not too worried. The maneuvering of characters from Privet Drive to the Burrow to Diagon Alley to the Hogwarts Express to Hogwarts is starting to get a little monotonous IMO. With JKR wanting to tie everything together in book seven, I suppose this routine might just take up too much space in the final volume. Anyway, those are my first impressions; interested to hear what everyone else still has to say. John. From grega126 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 05:44:09 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:44:09 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133378 The thing that's been bugging me about this whole him inventing these curses thing, is how did James learn a non-verbal spell that Snape had created. Remus says that the curse was quite the fad when they were in school. So if Snape inveneted it, someone else would've had to have also created it independent of Snape, OR Snape didn't actually invent them, but he just wrote them down in his book. grega126 From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:27:56 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:27:56 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abha_j" wrote: > > There are so many posts going on about how Snape should still be > trusted. I disagree. There is nothing worse than AK, and the act > of taking somebody's life, and Snape has clearly shown where his > loyalty lies. I can not believe that so many people are still > rooting for him. > I think JK Rowling is not playing any games this time, and is > telling us the truth, when Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa his > reasons for sticking to DD and not killing Harry all these years. Well, I think everyone should keep in mind that Harry physically forced Dumbledore to drink about six goblets of what was pretty obviously poison. Actually held him down and poured it down his throat. But he had a reason for it. The only reason it doesn't seem wrong to us is because we know the reason. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that Snape had a good reason for what he did. Especially since the reason is given in the book (the Unbreakable Vow). I'm convinced that Dumbledore made Snape promise to kill him if it came to that. Believing in evil!Snape requires that we also believe in stupid!Dumbledore, and I just can't buy that. snipsnapsnurr From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:54:19 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:54:19 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black = RAB and accomplice = KREACHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > R.A.B. = Regulus Black > I thought immediately at the end that this had to be it. That's the only problem I have with this theory. It seems too obvious. Not other RB's mentioned and Regulus being brought up over and over in this book. Who else would you think of other then him? It's like JKR was putting a sign up for us to think of him. I would like to think she is better then that. I started to think maybe it was not Regulus for this reason. I started think Borgin and Burke are mentioned alot. Then on rereading I see its Caractacus Burke and Borgin being alive and pretty cowardly to DE I don't think he would try anything unless he was going against Tom Riddle and not LV. But this doesn't fit with the message at all. RAB knew this was LV Horcrux. Sirius' fathers or mothers first name is not mentioned either and this would be an interesting revenge for their favorite sons death. His mother being pretty mad in the portrait might be from drinking the potion. Only how would they know about this unless Regulus told them. But why not put your name on it if it was all about revenge. If I was pissed and wanted to hurt someone like this I would make sure they knew it was me. A new character this late in the game that was never mentioned at all is the easy way out. I can't buy that. Why not put part or all of there name if that was the case. Like signed Ronald. It has to be someone Harry would know if the whole or part of the name was there. Even Hermione would have trouble looking into all R.A.B.s. We know Regulus wanted out but the person that did this knew they were dead after this. Unless he knew he was going to die either way and wanted to help bring the Dark Lord down with him. I can't think of anyone else mentioned that fits so well so it must be Regulus right. Maybe it is just this easy. It Regulus, the locket if the Horcrux he never got around to smashing because he lost his nerve or something. Kreacher or someone else helped him do it and Harry finds out whom in book 7. Mungdungus stole it, as I doubt the stealing was in there for show. Harry just has to realize this and get it back. I hope its a bit more complex then this. Brent From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:01:02 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:01:02 -0000 Subject: The SHIPS and why I think they were there In-Reply-To: <20050719155139.99281.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Some people have complained of HBP being "too shippy" > and I can certainly see where they are coming from. I > believe there is a reason (other than fan appeasement) > that SHIPS were so prominent in this book. > > Firstly, I really do believe that JKR wanted to get it > "out of the way" - to make known what ships were going > to sail. This means that (hopefully) the audience > will be concentrating on things more important than > "who will Hermione end up with" (well H/H v. R/H was > the biggest debate) when reading book 7. > > Secondly, I think it's possible (wouldn't put money on > it) that Ginny and Harry's love for each other (I > think we are meant to take it as love) will play a > part in book 7, even if Ginny doesn't much. > > This is where Remus/Tonks comes in. This showed us > Tonks losing her abilities and such and told us the > reason why. I'm thinking that Hary might be on the > weak side because he's denying himself love. > > I once read a book where a woman could heal people. > She didn't know how, she just could. Then she met a > guy and fell in love, but she broke up with him to > save him from the stigma of being attatched to her > (she was reguarded as the town witch). Then, when she > tried to heal someone she couldn't and the person > died. And she came to realize that it was love that > allowed her to heal people and that denying it was > blocking her ability. So, I'm thinking something like > that *could* happen in HP. Not saying it will, just > that it's a possibility. > > > Rebecca > > > Maybe Harry will sacrifice himself for Ginny like his mom before him and she ends up with he own scar. Brent From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:06:31 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:06:31 -0000 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: <200507191739238.SM00956@devbox> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vivamus" wrote: > There isn't time to read all the traffic here, so I'll keep it brief. > > A. Did anyone notice that the AK does *NOT* blast things? > > When Crouch!Moody demonstrated it on the spider, it was accompanied by a > rushing sound, green light, and the spider simply falling down dead. When > the Riddle family were killed, they didn't have a mark on them -- other than > expressions of terror. And so on. A *missed* AK might be expected to blast > something. > > When Snape supposedly AK'd DD, DD was blasted through the parapet. What > if, as someone else already has suggested, Snape did not mean the AK at all... Yes! Yes! I saw that, too. On the basis of the new Dumbledore portrait in the headmistress's office and because of Fawkes's behavior, I'm sure that Dumbledore is really dead. But the effect of Snape's AK was unlike any successful AK we have seen so far in the books. Dumbledore should have expired instantaneously, slumping to the floor because his legs would no longer support him, but with eyes open and with no change in his facial expression. It is unclear to me what caused Dumbledore to be blasted into the air and then to fall from the tower. Was it the effect of a partially effective AK coming from Snape? Did Dumbledore accomplish it himself-- which would make it suicide? (I don't like that explanation, but it has to be considered.) Does anybody have any other thoughts? Merrylinks From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Wed Jul 20 05:36:23 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:36:23 -0400 Subject: Hermione's O.W.L. grades References: <20050720050606.41658.qmail@web60311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42DDE2D7.7030005@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133383 ~redandgoldlion~: > So there it is. Quite strange that she, Hermione the Brilliant, > only got an EE in DADA, isn't it? I mean really, this is Hermione > we're talking about. What happened? She is too studious, and too > intelligent to mess up on exams like this. So what *did* she mess > up on? Any thoughts? Jocelyn: It's not strange at all. Harry and Ron play on the house sports team. Their sport moves quickly. They learn to use and hone their instincts - which way to move to avoid a blodgerm etc. They are used to reacting quickly. This would be a huge part of the DADA practical, I should imagine. For all Hermione's brilliance, she does tend to think, or rather over-think. Harry and Ron will react more quickly, for good or ill. On a DADA practical - if that's where she lost the points, it would make perfect sense. As for the literary answer, the 'E', allowed the readers to see Hermione's reaction to it (my husband and I loved that), allowed Ron to show her expectation (his pride as well?) that she would get the grades that she did. It humanized her, allowed another clue about Ron's feelings about Hermione to come out, and let Harry best Hermione in something other than Quiddich. Those are my thought on the subject anyway. Jocelyn From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:16:17 2005 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valky's Confession In-Reply-To: <1121833680.1614.85886.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050720061617.55219.qmail@web52401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133384 M.Clifford" wrote: "....... Now that I am vindicated in that by Half Blood Prince, the Deadly Sectumsempra, and, what appears to be at first glance, Dumbeldore's murder, I am not here to gloat.. (I don't have nearly as much to gloat about as CindySphinx, Amandageist, and Rita et al members of the PASHMINAS/CHOP clubs OMG *how long ago!* did you guys get that one right!!) AF here: Oh dear. IMO, it appears that a major point has been missed, if not an entire promontory, While I rejoice for any new found affection for Snape, there is no cause to gloat over "revelations" made via the horrific acts in HBP. The thinking that Snape's evil nature has finally been proved seems to carry the day on the sites by and devoted to young readers, but for those of us a bit longer in the tooth, I believe JKR's multi-facted characterizations show us that this is a very complex, adult series. Snape's acts -rather than illustrating his amorality - show instead his nobility, loyalty and bravery. I'll eat my words - and change my opion of this fantastic man - only after reading book 7! AF __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:22:22 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:22:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133385 sienna291973 wrote: > And I must say, that I think there are startling similarities between > Harry's infatuation with Ginny and Ron's infatuation with Lavendar. > Otherwise, I would have to accept that Rowling has lost her touch and > was unable to deliver realistic romantic scenarios (even if they did > have to involve Harry/ Ginny). anthyroserain: I completely agree with this. I'm not biased: I honestly never cared one way or the other if Harry got together with Ginny, but in HBP it seemed unconvincing, and as I think JKR is a good writer, I imagine this must be intentional. Yes, people do suddenly realize they're in love, but they don't suddenly *fall* in love. Lust, sure, not love. Usually, they've been in love for a long time without realizing it (like Ron and Hermione.) For Harry/Ginny to work, Harry should have been attracted to her and admired her all along, not suddenly in book 6, and I just don't see that. And it's not like they feel a true connection - their relationship seems mainly based on Harry thinking she's hot and liking her perfume. I figured it was either hormones or love potion. (And I agree with the poster who said that Ginny's comment to Ron about his romantic experience was way out of bounds. He's just a protective older brother, and that was an awful thing to say to someone. Really didn't make me like Ginny.) So: it's a decent teenage crush, but it's not love. I buy JKR's "love conquers all" mantra when it comes to parental and selfless love, but not teenage crushes. I really hope she's not putting them on the same plane here, because it cheapens real sacrifice. And while I'm complaining, I'd like to say that the "Spider-Man" moment at the end where Harry breaks up with Ginny is silly. Does he really care more about the well-being of Ginny than Ron and Hermione? Surely Voldemort would attack his best friends before his just-acquired girlfriend. (The latent shipper in me hopes this is all a prerequisite to Harry seeing the true beauty in Luna in book 7...) - anthyroserain From SJD914 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:55:51 2005 From: SJD914 at gmail.com (sjd914) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:55:51 -0000 Subject: New leader of the Order (Snape with Fawkes?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133386 Note: I have left this here so you can read Rehan's theory if you haven't already, while snipping some irrelevant things. You can just scroll down if you are familiar with the theory. REHAN: > I am throwing my hat in with those who think that Snape is a > quadruple agent - that is, he is really still loyal to the Order. > I am writing this with the assumption he is a good guy, or else > the rest of the post won't really be relevant. > Then I saw this quote, which provides what I believe to be > support for the most amazing plot twist in the entire Harry > Potter series. This is from the cub reporter interview: > > Peter Humphreys for BBC Newsround. - Who did Fawkes previously > belong to and will he play a vital role in the next book? > > JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next > books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never > been owned by anyone but Dumbledore. You will notice that when > Harry goes back in the Pensieve in this book, Fawkes is never > there, and no, I am sorry, not in this book, I take that back. > When Harry has previously seen the study with a different > headmaster he saw it with Dippet and Fawkes was not there then. > Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession. > > What is the full name of the Order? The Order of the PHOENIX. > (All indications point to the phoenix being Fawkes.) We saw > Fawkes leaving Hogwarts at the end of HBP. JKR's quote above > strongly suggests that Fawkes will have a significant role in > book 7, and she makes a point of noting that he belongs to > Dumbledore, not Hogwarts. > > When I read the quote, I began thinking of what role Fawkes > could have. What if Dumbledore had ordered Fawkes to remain > loyal to Snape after his death? (We certainly know Snape could > use the healing effect of phoenix song with all the dirty work > he has to do.) Then, Snape uses this as "proof" that he is > still a good guy to get back in the good graces of the Order. > They will likely believe this, as everyone knows that phoenixes > don't trust dark wizards and are only loyal to the good guys, > etc. Finally, since it is the Order of the Phoenix, whoever > Fawkes is loyal to might be the default leader of the group. > Snape does seem to know many things that the rest of the Order > does not. Sajid: I deleted much of the support for this theory, and just left its description. I have lurked for a very very long time (I think it might have even been pre GoF, but definitely very soon after it). (I have made a few posts on various names, however.) I have been a fan even longer, from about a few weeks before the US launch of PoA. Anyway, on to the more important actual HP stuff... I think this theory makes a lot of sense and solves many problems in one tidy theory, that makes a lot of sense (if you believe Snape is good, of course). Another interesting tidbit I heard from a poster Fiction Alley (who responded to this exact post from the same person): "This sounds like the old tale about how Roman leaders got chosen-- if a bird flew over them or landed on them or something, they were *it.* So do you think Fawkes went to go find Snape (or whoever will become the new leader of the OotP), and if Snape shows up with Fawkes on his shoulder everyone will go "well, that's him: he's got the bird," and that will be that? -- thephoenixsoared" This adds a bit more credibility to the theory; we all know JKR loves stuffing her books with historical allusions. When you talked about the song's healing powers, I assume you mean emotional healing (though I'm sure the physical healing powers of the tears will also come in handy). This emotional healing seemed more like filling Harry with a new resolve when Fawkes sung it in the CoS (I dont have a copy with me, I am away from home. Hopefully one of you can find out how exactly JKR describes it). Thinking about this brought me to another theory about Fawkes, relating to how Harry might use his power of "Heart" to defeat Voldemort. The pheonix song in CoS could have been filling Harry with more heart, to help him defeat Tom. Dumbledore would have known that this was a strength of Harry's and it is definately his style to just send him Fawkes (though of course, Fawkes may have just been drawn to Harry because of loyalty, which could be related to Heart.) Perhaps Fawkes will show up again in Harry's last fight against Voldemort to help him use his one advantage over him more effectively. Hmm... this makes me think of another thing. What if instead of coming to Snape, Fawkes comes to Harry (perhaps anointing him the leader of the Order?) This would let Fawkes help him in all his tasks ahead of him. This leaves the problem of Snape showing his loyalty somewhat unsolved, but I guess Fawkes could still show his loyalty to Snape even if hes owned by Harry. However, if Harry does become the leader of the Order (which I admit, is unlikely in the first place), it worsens the Snape problem because Harry would be the hardest person to convince. The best way to get around that is to have someone like Moody believe him, who will make Harry accept (albiet grudgingly) to accept Snape. - Sajid From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 06:44:50 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:44:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133387 I believe I have a simple answer to this. "He was fine while he was studying out of books but then he took a year off ter get some first-hand experience.... They say he met vampires in the Black Forest, and there was a nasty bit o' trouble with a hag -- never been the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his own subject..." (pp. 70-71 US paperback) Key words in that phrase are that he took a year OFF. Which means, he taught one year, took a year off (and was filled by someone else), then came back after being possessed. So he taught two years, just not consecutively. --Lawless On 7/19/05, makemeatree wrote: > "jakedjensen" : > > > I always thought that Q had been in the position for at least > > a year prior. Even if Q has taught somewhere else before, how > > would Hagrid know that his is scared of his students? In > > addition, no one talks about how Q is a new instructor in book > > one. Usually, the new instructor is picked apart by the students > > at the beginning of each year. > > > I re-read this bit, too. I guess....it's more of a mistake, really, > but I didnt have to give it much thought to rationalize it. > > It could be two things, or both, maybe: > > It could be that Quirrell was a student at Hogwarts, and then took > the position, but before doing so, studied, traveled, got posessed > by LV, etc. > > And/or it could be that Quirrell was a teacher at Hogwarts, > teaching something else, and that yr was just his first yr teaching DADA. This would explain why people knew him already, knew his personality previous to the traveling, and why students didn't talk > too much about him being 'new'. > > ..j. > > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 06:52:21 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:52:21 -0000 Subject: Valky's Confession In-Reply-To: <20050720061617.55219.qmail@web52401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133388 - > M.Clifford" wrote: > > "....... Now that I am vindicated in that by Half Blood Prince, > the Deadly Sectumsempra, and, what appears to be at first glance, > Dumbeldore's murder, I am not here to gloat.. (I don't have nearly as > much to gloat about as CindySphinx, Amandageist, and Rita et al > members of the PASHMINAS/CHOP clubs OMG *how long ago!* did you guys > get that one right!!) > > > AF here: Oh dear. IMO, it appears that a major point has been missed, if not an entire promontory, While I rejoice for any new found affection for Snape, there is no cause to gloat over "revelations" made via the horrific acts in HBP. Valky: Oh I don't know about that, those of us who argued vehemently that it was not beyond Sevvie to have killed James in the pensieve scene (and wore quite the worst of venom that Fandom's Pro-Snapers could summon for it) are quite vindicated now. Little Severus was quite a demented young character, capable of the invention of quite one of the worst most horrifying curses we've ever seen and, it would seem, the use of it on his childhood enemies. That said, I, Like Dumbledore ("Great man Dumbledore.." The Best, believe wholly in second chances and forgiveness, and the jury is still out on dear Sevvie right now, did he deserve his second chance? Time will tell. AF.: The thinking that Snape's evil nature has finally been proved seems to carry the day on the sites by and devoted to young readers, but for those of us a bit longer in the tooth, I believe JKR's multi-facted characterizations show us that this is a very complex, adult series. Snape's acts -rather than illustrating his amorality - show instead his nobility, loyalty and bravery. I'll eat my words - and change my opion of this fantastic man - only after reading book 7! Oh Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree with you. And might I add, that while it may be for you that this confirmed your faith in his nobility and bravery, for me it was the last peice of evidence that finally put to rest the great debate in my mind about Snapes true alignment... Snape is indeed a good man.. Valky Settling down comfortably in the Snape camp and, despite the queer stares from some opponents of days past, wraps her self tight and warm in her new Pashmina. From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:28:46 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:28:46 -0000 Subject: Dallas Theory - Shipping-also in response to Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133389 Kate wrote: > I honestly feel that the use of the love-potions in HBP was comic- > relief, instead of fodder for conspiracy theories. I really feel > that if JKR used the Dallas theory it would be more clich?d than > the way the romance is currently portrayed, and not nearly as > emotionally honest Thank you, Kate, for writing my exact feelings on the love potion theory so eloquently. And Sienna brought up some amazing points in her response post to mine (the name is Adair, by the way ;P), but the glaringly obvious problem I have with the love potion idea is that we see how Ron actually acts in response to one. Harry nor Ron react this obsessively towards Ginny, Hermione, or Lavendar. And I think if Harry were under a potion, it would have been rather difficult for him to break up with her in such a way at the end (as it was explained Tom Riddle only broke up with Merope when she stopped using the potion, and then he was incensed, and knew he had been under some spell). I also don't think Ginny or Lavendar using a love potion wouldn't have gotten past Hermione. Honestly, I've always seen Ron/Hermione coming, as Harry also admitted in this book. Where I agree with the shipper protests, is that though I didn't see the relationships in and of themselves as forced, there seems to be so much left out. The book feels as if JKR was trying so hard to get through the main plot and cut all the trimmings, which we were spoiled with in Phoenix. I loved this book, but as others have stated, there was a... richness that was missing. I've been calling this book "Book 7, Part 1" to my friends, because that's what it felt like to me. Harry/Ginny would have been so much more believable had we been given interactions between them at the Burrow (in the beginning), or at school, or on the Quidditch field. He hung out with her more, too, in his fifth year (I'm thinking of the D.A. and after Sirius' death), when he would have had chances to know her better, but we were never allowed to read any of this. That's the stuff I missed in this book: the beloved unnecessary detail, extraneous to the book's plot, but so desired by the devoted HP fan. Honestly, I felt as if JKR hurried up with Harry/Cho's ending, suddenly had Harry realize Ginny wasn't just Ron's little sister, and then stuck the Dean/Ginny interaction in there as an excuse for a catalyst. There's nothing like the clarity that comes with psychotic jealously, neh? After my second read, I saw all kinds of tiny clues to Harry/Ginny in the beginning, I just think JKR shouldn't have shoved it so abruptly upon us. But it is Harry we're talking about. He decides if he likes or dislikes something, and then his opinion sticks like glue. He's loyal and stubborn to a fault. So, no, I don't believe Harry/Ginny is implausible, it just didn't feel properly filled out. Mostly, my theory isn't that something is running amok at Hogwarts, as the Pirate Ginny thread implies, but that the relationships and character interactions are real and true, and JKR just didn't go into great detail about them. Like all the descriptions of Hogwarts missing, I think JKR takes for granted that we understand these characters completely in our minds by now. The relationships seem forced to us, because they are brand new events, and yet... they're not, at least Ron/Hermione isn't, and Ginny liking Harry isn't. We never questioned when Harry suddenly had a crush on Cho, from one glimpse at the end of book three. But we question now, because the questions were always hinted at, and have now suddenly been answered, without any preamble. It was a lot to take in, especially since sex and the like, though suggested, have always seemed outside of the major scope of the series. Now, all the trio can seem to think about is snogging. Though that also sounds a whole lot like being sixteen. Adair, who loved this book, but who also wished it was longer than OOTP, and wonders in the name "Merope" is Oedipus inspired From benigs at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:31:25 2005 From: benigs at yahoo.com (benigs) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:31:25 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that Snape had a good > reason for what he did. Especially since the reason is given in the > book (the Unbreakable Vow). > I'm convinced that Dumbledore made Snape promise to kill him if it > came to that. Believing in evil!Snape requires that we also believe > in stupid!Dumbledore, and I just can't buy that. > > snipsnapsnurr I agree with this. I believe the only reason Snape did AK was because of the Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore knows that Snape did the Vow (since Harry told him about it) and Snape could've told him as well. It could be just that Snape didn't know what he was promising to do in case Draco fails to do it, and in turn Dumbledore does not know it as well. The pleading in Dumbledore's voice when Snape was about to kill him could be his realizing his mistake in not investigating the Vow further, not because he realized Snape has betrayed him... Evil Snape, Evil Dumbledore? I hope it really isn't that way... Benigs From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 07:10:54 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:10:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133391 anthyroserain: <<>> > So: it's a decent teenage crush, but it's not love. I buy > JKR's "love conquers all" mantra when it comes to parental and > selfless love, but not teenage crushes. I really hope she's not > putting them on the same plane here, because it cheapens real > sacrifice. > > And while I'm complaining, I'd like to say that the "Spider-Man" > moment at the end where Harry breaks up with Ginny is silly. Does he > really care more about the well-being of Ginny than Ron and > Hermione? Surely Voldemort would attack his best friends before his > just-acquired girlfriend. Ali: I have to concur. HBP was a great book, definitely one trying to wedge itself into the top HP book spot, but really, the SHIPs just didn't jive. Remus/Tonks, while cute and made me happy, really was completely unexpected. (If someone who saw this pointed at in Book 6, please explain to this poor reader.) Hermione/Ron, while always hinted at, seemed to be overdone. JKR seemed to hit us over the head with their "relationship" (or, rather, the lack thereof), which makes me stand stronger by my theory that this is one ship that will definitely sail but not for very long. (By the way, to the poster who made this comment firstI think it true that Hermione felt more "real" in this book, seeing that she was acting her age for once, but unfortunately, she didn't act in alignment with her character in the previous 5 books.) Per Harry & Ginny, I didn't see any hints to this in the previous five books, and I definitely felt a little cheated out of a build-up to this relationship. If JKR had written it off as a teenage fling at the end, I would've understood, but the kind of dept that JKR was hinting, I didn't understand. There just wasn't enough there for us readers to believe that sort of intensity in feelings. Therefore, I just don't buy into the theory that separating with Ginny makes Harry weaker. Harry's feelings for Ginny, being as young as these two are and as immature as their relationship seemed, just can't compete with the depth of feelings that Lily had for Harry. Hence I agree with anthyroserain in saying that putting Ginny on the same plane as Lily cheapens things quite a bit. However, I have to disagree with the Spiderman ending comment, though not because I don't think the ending sent Spiderman-ish vibes, just that I don't think he cared less for Ginny's well-being. For one, Harry "had meant [Ron & Hermione] to understand that he was undertaking this most dangerous journey alone" (US Deluxe Ed., pg 651). To me, that means that Harry was, once again, attempting to separate himself from his friends for "noble reasons." Harry, like many heroes before him, seems to have the stupid idea that, for some unknown reason, separating himself from the world is a good thing - they won't be attacked; he won't have to worry about their well-being; the hurt they'll feel when he's gone won't be as bad; ad nauseum; ad infinitum. Anyway, it seems to me that, with Ginny, Harry was just trying to break more ties before he left on what, I believe, he perceives to be an almost-impossible task (that is, the survival from Voldemort in the end, not the finding and destroying of the horcruxes). That's all I have to say, at the moment, on this matter. I hope it makes some sense (as it is quite late at the moment). I'll weigh in more on this tomorrow. ~Ali, momentarily de-lurking thanks to HBP From benigs at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 06:46:53 2005 From: benigs at yahoo.com (benigs) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:46:53 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Thoughts_On_HBP=97Oddities/Horcruxes/Snape/LOLLIPOPS/R.A.B?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" wrote: > ? The shedding of a number of over-cooked sub-plots made for a > leaner and more focused read IMO, but it still begs the question: > why did JKR develop them in the first place? What happened to SPEW? > Grawp? The DA? The Sorting Hat's Message? Neville? Don't get me > wrong; I don't think this actually detracts from HBP?if anything, it > detracts from OOTP: what was the *point* of all those different > strands? If you ask me (and again this isn't a criticism of HBP in > itself) JKR seems extremely conscious of the fact that she went > *way* over length with OOTP, and here made a concerted effort to cut > down. ---->i also missed the whole SPEW subplot... I thought before the house elves would at some point would become pivotal in bringing down Voldy but without Dumbledore, who will rally them? As for Grawp, his role could be in the book 7... Didn't really miss the DA so much... For me, it already served its purpose in OoTP... > > As for Harry not going back to Hogwarts, at least not in the normal > sense, I'm not too worried. The maneuvering of characters from > Privet Drive to the Burrow to Diagon Alley to the Hogwarts Express > to Hogwarts is starting to get a little monotonous IMO. With JKR > wanting to tie everything together in book seven, I suppose this > routine might just take up too much space in the final volume. > ---> Well I am worried about Harry's not going back to Hogwarts. On one hand, that will be good since that will really bring Harry's story right in the middle of the war with Voldemort. I don't think the previous books' mechanisms of having a realtively peaceful year at school that suddenly comes to a boil in the end will work for book 7. But on the other hand, the HP books are about Hogwarts as much as it is about Harry. I am just as curious to see the fate of the school after this whole ordeal is over... Benigs From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 07:22:53 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:22:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133393 > anthyroserain: > > I completely agree with this. I'm not biased: I honestly never cared > one way or the other if Harry got together with Ginny, but in HBP it > seemed unconvincing, and as I think JKR is a good writer, I imagine > this must be intentional. > > Yes, people do suddenly realize they're in love, but they don't > suddenly *fall* in love. Lust, sure, not love. Usually, they've been > in love for a long time without realizing it (like Ron and > Hermione.) Now me: Here is a surprising thing. I am actually *not* an R/Hr shipper but thought the moment between Ron and Hermione in Sprout's class (I think) was very touching and realistically done. I'm an H/Hr shipper but I liked it. After that, it all went downhill. H/G though... nup. Not buying. Something's fishy. anthyroserain: And it's not like they feel a true connection - > their relationship seems mainly based on Harry thinking she's hot > and liking her perfume. I figured it was either hormones or love > potion. me: This was also another sore point for me. Harry's attraction seemed almost completely based on superficial, physical characteristics. Her wonderful hair, her physical attractiveness (more than once we are reminded that other boys find her attractive) etc. I was left wondering where the Harry I loved had gone and how he could be so superficial. Even his moment with Luna had more substance. Ginny was entirely characterised in HBP by her physical attractiveness, her sexuality, her social graces, her humour, her fiestiness (who just happened to have a good bat-bogey hex). She was simply too much the 'perfect woman'. anthyroserain: > (And I agree with the poster who said that Ginny's comment to Ron > about his romantic experience was way out of bounds. He's just a > protective older brother, and that was an awful thing to say to > someone. Really didn't make me like Ginny.) Me: The part where the author really lost me was when Ginny snaps at Hermione and tells her not to embarrass herself. For me it was too much about how an attractive girl (who fits into and understands a mans world - ie quidditch) is more desireable and worthy than an intelligent girl who lacks in social graces and physical beauty. I couldn't believe the author could so callously send such a message (to girls who might be brainy like Hermione but lack Ginny's social graces) just so that she could kill the shipping wars. I was utterly appalled. I lost all liking for Ginny right then and there and I felt like smacking Harry upside the head. In fact the anti-feminist undertones in the Ginny v's Hermione characterisations require some discussion. Whereas Ginny is rewarded and placed on a pedastal for her desireability, Hermione is subtly mocked. Her thirst for knowledge, while admired on the surface are characterised as insecurity and teased. Her book-smarts do not avail her of respect in HBP but rather of subtle scorn. Despite all she has done for him, Harry is pleased when Ginny puts her in her place. There is much more that could be said about the message this sends to kids. Essentially, I went away feeling like Ginny had been turned into a sort of trophy worthy of a hero, with all the trappings that entailed, while Hermione was brought down a peg so that Ginny could shine. anthyroserain: > So: it's a decent teenage crush, but it's not love. I buy > JKR's "love conquers all" mantra when it comes to parental and > selfless love, but not teenage crushes. I really hope she's not > putting them on the same plane here, because it cheapens real > sacrifice. Me: Even if we were to hypothesise that Ginny and Harry's 'lust' could turn to love, is one book enough? anthyroserain: > And while I'm complaining, I'd like to say that the "Spider-Man" > moment at the end where Harry breaks up with Ginny is silly. Does he > really care more about the well-being of Ginny than Ron and > Hermione? Surely Voldemort would attack his best friends before his > just-acquired girlfriend. Me: Just another moment that had me scratching my head anthy. Sienna From laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au Wed Jul 20 06:48:52 2005 From: laura_clapham2002 at yahoo.com.au (laura_clapham2002) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:48:52 -0000 Subject: Snape, Horcruxes and Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133394 vividscribbler wrote: > > Dumbledore says on page 506, chatper 23, of HBP (US): > "I am sure he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your > death. As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, > however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might > then have occured to him to turn her into his last Horcrux." > There has been wide speculation about a living being as Horcrux, > and I for one believe that Nagini is indeed a Horcrux. > > This also established a timeline. He must have created a Horcrux > after his fall of the 1980s but before his ressurection. > Laura C now: What if Voldemort did not create the last Horcrux until after his resurrection? It seems to me that this is not unlikely - while in his babymort state it may have been too difficult to create another Horcrux, however once he had fully returned to his corporeal state this would be easier. It is still unclear in my mind whether the murder needs to be performed directly by the person in order to slip the soul in order to make a Horcrux or whether a slightly more indirect approach would suffice. For example some have argued that Moaning Myrtle's death was used to create the diary Horcrux, however whilst clearly reponsible in a large way, the basilisk actually performed the killing, not Tom Riddle. If the murder must be committed directly then perhaps babymort did not have the power to do this, and hence had to wait until after his resurrection to create his final Horcrux? On the other hand perhaps Wormtail cast the spell, meaning it did not show up in the Priori Incantatum... Just a few thoughts, Laura C :) From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jul 20 07:39:48 2005 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:39:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny (Something is not right) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133395 >sienna wrote: > Hi Adagio, I understand the reasons you say that but I'd like to > point out that one thing HBP has clearly demonstrated is that > everyone brings an inherent bias in one way or another to the book. > (e.g. the least critical fans are likely to be those who have been > rooting for H/G to happen and don't care how or why) Which I think is > ironic, given one the main themes of the book is about the way we > perceive things to be. > > You are correct in thinking that I did not expect (nor want) H/G. But > that said, I was open to the possibility of it happening. The thing > that threw me was not that it happened (or that Harry developed > feelings) but the way it happened, the abruptness with which the > subplot was delivered, and the way the behaviour of the trio changed > to allow for it. > snip > * Harry was expressive, eloquent and composed. This, despite it only > being two weeks between the end of OotP and the start of HBP. > Sirius's death hardly registers. Why? > * Hermione, where are you Hermione? I can understand hormones, but > Hermione acts out of character. It is one thing to be 16. It is > another to go from retiring to aggressive in one book. It is like she > becomes obsessed very shortly after the potions lesson. It's like > they all did. > * Suddenly everyone is snogging out in the open. In no previous books > do the trio ever catch an older student in the common room. There is > a small reference to Ginny catching Percy and Penelope in the broom > closet in CoS but that is it. > * Harry kisses Ginny in front of 50 people in the common room despite > being awkward and embarrassed with Cho just the year before > * Harry should not have been able to take potions but coincidentally > is able to when Snape gets the DADA job ? despite Dumbledore > admitting he didn't trust him up until then to do it? We are never > given a reason why. Contrivance or something more subtle? > * There is hardly any talk of classes, many things are entirely > missing. Things we have come to expect and love about Hogwarts are no > longer referred to. Where was McGonnagal? We only see her once. Where > was Ron chewing with his mouth full. In fact, we hardly ever see them > eating. Ron and Harry don't play chess once. > * Harry's scar doesn't hurt him and barely gets referred to. He is > not affected when Slughorn stares at it. > * Harry's glasses are not broken despite Malfoy stepping on his face. > Hermione doesn't even visit him when he is in Hospital after the > Quidditch match(absolutely the first time that's ever happened). > From being the first at his side, her obsession to be with Ron > suddenly takes over. > * Hermione and Ginny argue over Harry ? when have these two ever had > a foul word? Why doesn't Hermione respond to Ginny's rather rude > attack? Why does Ginny feel the need to protect her territory? > * Even Hermione and Ron's courting rituals seemed off-kilter. > * Ginny could do no wrong. Her Bat Bogey Hex is referred to more than > once and she is literally thrown in the readers face. When has JKR > ever lacked subtlety? It wasn't believeable - it was Mary Sue. That > strikes me as far too amateur to be right. Everything between them is > perfect ? perfect understanding, perfectly attractive, perfectly > funny, perfectly popular, perfectly charming. There are purposeful, > in-your-face parallels drawn between Lily and Ginny. But their ending > was off-kilter. Why does he not tell her about the prophecy? Why does > he not protest when Ron and Hermione say they are coming with him if > he's intent on going on alone? Aren't Ron and Hermione at *more* risk > than Ginny? Would he care less if they died? Why does Ginny only > manage a `twisted' smile and not shed a tear over their breakup? > * Lavendar suddenly interested in Ron? Since when? > * Dumbledore oh Dumbledore so much strangeness here. Why wear the > ring after damaging your hand trying to destroy the holocrux? > > And there is much more. The only thing that makes sense to me is that > there is something afoul in Hogwarts and that it has been embedded > with a subtlety that is startling. It has something to do with Snape > and LV's desire to eliminate Dumbeldore and Snape's knowledge of > Harry and his friends. The trio are almost entirely out of whack with > each other the entire year, until the very end. And then, when Harry > looks forward to spending a peaceful day with Ron and Hermione at > Bill's wedding, he doesn't have a thought in his head about the fact > that Ginny will also be there. > > Unless you are committed to the ships as they occurred in HBP, then > you can't help but notice the very many strange things about this > book. I think it is all too coincidental that there are many > references to potions (love, luck etc), the Dementors breeding (a > creature that is all about mind-control), song lyrics about > cauldron's and love, mist, so much out of character behaviour. > > Consider this quote from Snape regarding potions in Book 1: > > "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly > believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the > beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, > the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, > bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses.... > > Bewitching the mind. Ensnaring the sense. Doesn't it seem to reflect > what HBP is all about? > > I could be wrong. It's happened before. :) And like I said, I think > it is either a badly written and delivered book or a work of sheer > brilliance and subtlety. > Hello to everyone. Sienna I couldn't agree more. The HBP gave me the impression that we transfered to an alternative dimension(universe) from that of OOTP. 1) Harry Potter is very very mild almost in nirvana. Ceddrik's death resulted in OOTP(angry) Harry. Siriou's (who happens to be a closest person to Harry) death reesulted in HBP Harry. Is this logical to you? 2) Hermione my favourite character is another example. Suddenly she ignores Harry's warnings. She doesn't even visit him in the hospital like Sienna said before. Hello! Where is Hermione that stands beside Harry no matter what throughout the five first books (no shipping meaning). Is this logical to you? 3) After reading the scene where AD met for the first time with LV I was really puzzled. My God LV as 11 year old boy without any guidance and training already controls animals and is adept in wandless magic. HP is destined to fight him and what AD is doing to help Harry. He just shows him memories from the past. And what about training? Just the scholl stuff. Is that logical to you? 4) Harry's actions and prowess in magic is also a confusing issue. He is totally kicked in the ass in HBP. He is almost inept in duelling when in OOTP shines against multiple DE's. Do you also want to comment on the scene in the train when Draco flattened him literally? 5) Harry and Ginny issue. OK I accept that hormones talks now. This is logical. But can you explain the scene where Ginny and Dean were cought red-handed by Ron and Harry? Do you honestly believe that after five years and a summer without any serious interaction between them (not even close friends) Harry fall in love suddenly with Ginny. I can understand love on first sight (like with Cho in third year) or even a scenario that gradually they falling in love with each other throughout mayby OOTP and now HBP. But what really happened was out of the blue ( "Hallelujah! I can see! I saw the truth! I am in love with Ginny.", Harry says). Comments anyone? 6) Jealousy is a powerful emotion and can alter someones behaviour thats a fact. That can explain the whole Hermione and ......(OK enough distance for now) Ron(Important notes: I hate that character with every fiber of my being. He has every vice that I can't stand and I don't want to mention right now, because it is not my intention to try him or start a flaming debate about him with you my fellow group members. I only state my personal opinion and I don't like to pretend that I like that character) interaction. She seems to return his feelings and may end up together ( This is too hard for me to say it because I was, I am and I will always be a fanatic H/Hr shipper). What it bothers me (not only the obvious reason people) is that Hermione lost any self-control. Provided that she has a crush with Ron since the book 4, Hermione seems to keep her crush well under control even until the beginning of the HBP. Suddenly from the composed, logical and expert to the relationship psychology Hermione she degenerate into the HBP!Hermione (almost the exact opposite of her previous self). Yes hormones and Jealousy can alter the human behaviour but to such an extent (a total transformation of character in such a short time). Is that logical? Maybe to you is logical but for me it isn't. Please I expect your comments about Sienna's and mine comments for HBP and not about my personal opinion about Ron or my choice of Shipping. Yours trully, Paul From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 07:40:49 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:40:49 -0000 Subject: Another LOTR moment (was: Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133396 Ali wrote: > Harry "had meant [Ron & Hermione] to understand that he was > undertaking this most dangerous journey alone" (US Deluxe Ed., pg > 651). To me, that means that Harry was, once again, attempting to > separate himself from his friends for "noble reasons." Harry, like > many heroes before him, seems to have the stupid idea that, for some > unknown reason, separating himself from the world is a good thing - > they won't be attacked; he won't have to worry about their well- being; > the hurt they'll feel when he's gone won't be as bad; ad nauseum; ad > infinitum. anthyroserain: You know, this reminds me of the HP/LOTR discussion: reading over the end of HPB, I realized it is *totally* the ending of Fellowship of the Ring. Compare: Tolkien: "'It would have been the death of you to come with me, Sam,' said Frodo, 'and I could not have borne that.' 'Not as certain as being left behind,' said Sam. 'But I am going to Mordor.' 'I know that well enough, Mr. Frodo. Of course you are. And I'm coming with you.' 'Now Sam,' said Frodo, 'don't hinder me!... But I must go at once. It's the only way.' 'Of course it is,' answered Sam. 'But not alone. I'm coming too, or neither of us isn't going. I'll knock holes in all the boats first.'" Rowling: "'And then we'll go with you wherever you're going' [said Ron] 'No--' said Harry quickly; he had not counted on this, he had meant them to understand that he was undertaking this most dangerous journey alone. 'You said to us once before,' said Hermione quietly, 'that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We've had time, haven't we?' 'We're with you whatever happens,' said Ron." So JKR can claim to have never finished reading LOTR, but I bet she's at least seen the movies ;) -anthyroserain From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Wed Jul 20 07:45:04 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:45:04 -0000 Subject: General Thoughts on HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133397 I've just been letting HBP percolate a little. I agree with lupinlore/cubfanbudwoman - JKR does seem to have addressed fans' questions/niggles, as in the Ch.2 conversation between Snape and Bella. But what other author has had so much accessible critique whilst they're in the process of writing? I think it's amazing JKR has kept her sanity and good humour, and hasn't killed everyone off yet! Kenney - Harry as intended Horcrux - agree, but I'm uncertain whether it was intended by Voldy or not, and even whether Voldy knows Harry contains a piece of his soul. It sounds as if V. was blown away when he 'went for' Harry, he became disembodied, and had to spend a long time getting back to a corporeal existence. Certainly not what he'd planned. Aussie_lol - You got me thinking about the Lily/Snape thing - Harry's seen Snape's handwriting on many occasions - certainly adult Snape's, but didn't he also see young Snape's in the pensieve? People's writing has always been commented on in the series - Harry doesn't recognise this hand. OK, he doesn't recognise Dumbledore's voice in the howler to Petunia. But it's not usual to identify a book on the back cover. Snape probably wouldn't have wanted to put 'The Half Blood Prince' on the front page of any of his books, but why would he put it on his book anyways? Too incriminating, and Snape always seems to have been fairly careful. So when would he have written that? Perhaps AFTER finishing his schooling? Perhaps when James and Lily were killed, and he returned to Hogwarts - to teaching potions? What if that wasn't his workbook at school at all, and he got it out to swot up on his potions skills, having been much more interested in DADA, as the spells in the book indicate? Dumbledore's 'death'. I'm very much in two minds on this. The whole cave scene, with DD drinking the contents of the bowl, then Harry not being able to give him water and having to use the lake water, which DD cautioned about touching? And the floating corpses - is it DD's power that stops him turning into one of them when he's either drunk the liquid or been splashed by the pool? The scene on the tower, with Draco, was great. Draco blustering for all he was worth, unable to fathom why, when he was holding the wand, DD wasn't afraid of him. Not the way he'd played that scene out in his mind, I'm sure. So what's Draco gone away thinking? The pleading, I'm pretty sure, was DD getting Snape to do what DD wanted him to, what they'd agreed to, whatever that was. It's not to say Snape didn't believe he was killing Dumbledore, I think he believes he's killed DD. I'm not sure DD didn't have another plan that no one was in on. It's almost like the other books - PS, where DD goes off the scene to let Harry have a go at protecting the stone, etc. etc. But there's a long time gap between Harry seeing DD blasted off the tower, and seeing DD on the ground below. Lots of time for DD, if he's not really dead, to have prepared anything. Anyhow, I'll stop here. Too many ideas buzzing round. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 20 07:15:56 2005 From: neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com (zoe0coll) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:15:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133398 Delurking after a very long time... Just wondered if any of you have actually been 16/17! Or have you just forgotten! I didn't particularly care who Harry went out with - I am not a shipper, but I think the Harry/Ginny relationship was just right. It didn't come out of the blue, Ginny has fancied him since PS, and while he hasn't shown that he fancies her, he has spent a lot of time with her in Order of the Phoenix, at Grimmauld Place, in DA meetings, they're on the Quidditch team together, and finally at the ministry, he's also got the bond between them that she was saved by him in COS and that she had her mind taken over by Voldemort, thus giving her a link with Harry that no one else has! In JKR's defence, I myself am now married (for 14yrs) to a man I met at a youth group when I was 12. I didn't fancy him at all when we first met, didn't think him particularly good looking, we weren't even in the same friendship group, but then as I got older- me 15, him 16, we began to be in the same group of friends, (we both had had other girfreinds/boyfriends), but had a lot of friends in common, and then when I was 16 and him 17 our youth group went on a weekend trip, I suddenly realised I fancied him, he asked me out the following week, (I later found out he had fancied me for about a year) and we got married 5 years later! So I personally felt that the relationship was spot on! On the argument between Ron and Ginny, I thought she was doing exactly what a teenager would. I don't have any brothers myself but my two best friends both had older brothers who were exactly like Ron, telling them off and threatening to tell parents about boyfriends etc, and both my friends reacted just like Ginny - shouting and saying the most hurtful things they could come up with at the time! I just feel JKR is writing with a knowledge or rememberance of what it's like to be that age and I felt transported back to my teenage years and felt like I was right there with them. Back to lurkdom Zoe From benigs at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 07:43:26 2005 From: benigs at yahoo.com (benigs) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:43:26 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133399 grega126 wrote: > The thing that's been bugging me about this whole him inventing > these curses thing, is how did James learn a non-verbal spell > that Snape had created. Remus says that the curse was quite > the fad when they were in school. So if Snape invented it, > someone else would've had to have also created it independent > of Snape, OR Snape didn't actually invent them, but he just > wrote them down in his book. Well someone could have seen Snape do the curse before and of course asked him how it was done... And of course the curse could've spread like wildfire as it was so "cool" looking... Or maybe Snape thought of the curse before he even learned how to do non-verbal spells and people would've heard it and copied it... Benigs From benigs at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 07:48:16 2005 From: benigs at yahoo.com (benigs) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:48:16 -0000 Subject: The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133400 johnbowman19 wrote: > My reading of the HBP turned me into a Snape hater. I used to > enjoy the literary genius of Harry's black and white hatred of > Snape until I read the OOTP. Their relationship gained a deeper > level with Harry's trip into Snape's Worst Memory. We saw the > human side to Serverus, and had to wonder what kind of a person > Harry's father had been, now after the HBP, we have to wonder > what kind of person Snape is. I for one really didn't hate Snape for what he did to Dumbledore. At least not until we see this act of his thoroughly explained in the next book. But my theory is that Snape only killed Dumbledore because Snape is human. He knows what the penalty is for breaking an Unbreakable Vow and that is his life. True, that's very selfish of him to think about his own skin but really, we would've thought about our own skins when we are in the same situation right? Benigs From barbswright at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 06:30:33 2005 From: barbswright at gmail.com (Barb Wright) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:30:33 -0700 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: References: <42DDCE88.1040400@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <731ca75a050719233044e04cc9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133401 wrote: >We have: > >1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring >2. Evil giant spiders >3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; >Dead Marshes in LOTR) >4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the >leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) >5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) >6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) >7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past >(Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). >8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; >C'ent'aurs in HP) >Any others I've missed? The magical door, in a rock wall, requiring a simple password that's tricky to determine. Barb Wright From oppen at mycns.net Wed Jul 20 08:10:09 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:10:09 -0000 Subject: HBP: My thoughts *SPOILERS* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133402 So much to take in...and so much activity on the group! Who'd'a thunk it? *grin* One thing I will say I really liked was how Fleur, toward the end, reared up righteous and gave Molly Weasley a quick talking-to. I mean, I can understand how other women resent Veelas and their effect on men, but of all the people to accuse of being primarily interested in their partner's looks, a part-Veela would have to be LAST on the list! Fleur, of all people, would have to be well aware that looks have little to do with the person inside! While Fleur wasn't perfect, if I'd brought my intended home and my mom and sis were as rude to or about her as the Weasley womenfolk were, There Would Be Words. Snape struck me as being like some of the great Irish heroes, caught in conflicting _geasa_ and destroyed. The Unbreakable Oath sounds very like a voluntarily-entered-into _geas_ to me, and if D'dore had already extracted an Oath from him to "protect your cover, no matter what," and then "Cissy" extracts another Oath from him, the two Oaths might have forced him to AK D'dore even if he really, really didn't want to do it. As for D'dore's appearance post-mortem, I've seen pictures of people who've had fatal falls from great heights. Even if falling from far higher up than the tower, often the only sign of the fall is that limbs are at unnatural angles---there's very little blood to be seen. Being devoutly ship-agnostic and Along For The Ride, I wasn't as disappointed with the book as some folks I know were who had huge amounts of emotional energy invested in, shall we say, non-orthodox interpretations. --Eric Oppen, who would have loved more Luna and was surprised that the DA didn't continue. From trekkie at stofanet.dk Wed Jul 20 08:21:29 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:21:29 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Snape invent his curses? References: Message-ID: <004001c58d04$074e1330$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133403 As I see it, any spell can be verbal as well as non-verbal. So Snape MIGHT have at first used his spell verbally (perhaps he didn't know how to cast non-verbal spells at that time, they seem to be kinda hart to manage) - thereby accidentally teaching it to James et. al. What bothers me more about the spells in the Book is that they're just that. The spell. Isn't there supposed to be a special kind of "swish-and-flick" associated with a given spell? Or is it enough to know the words of a spell? We know that the Unforgivable curses needs the WILL to cast them in order to work, so obviously it's not enough to simply repeat them, parrotwise. So how can you just read a spell in a book and be able to use it at the first option? Isn't spells usually something you have to practice in? Yet Harry got the Sectusempra to work at first attempt, and he's not usually that good in Charms, is he? Argh, every time you get one thing answered in this book, you're left with two new questions as well *L* ~Trekkie ----- Original Message ----- From: "greg_a126" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:44 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Snape invent his curses? > The thing that's been bugging me about this whole him inventing these > curses thing, is how did James learn a non-verbal spell that Snape had > created. Remus says that the curse was quite the fad when they were in > school. So if Snape inveneted it, someone else would've had to have > also created it independent of Snape, OR Snape didn't actually invent > them, but he just wrote them down in his book. > > grega126 > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From trekkie at stofanet.dk Wed Jul 20 08:24:31 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:24:31 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Snape Hater Club References: Message-ID: <004401c58d04$742f9c30$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133404 ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnbowman19" > DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to kill > him like a dog in the dirt. Well, that is YOUR interpretation of that scene. I, as a Snape-supporter see it totally different :o) I guess there WILL be Snape Hater clubs. Just as there's allready Snape-supporter clubs. Time will tell which one of them was the right one to be in. Personally I have no doubts in that matter. ~Trekkie .: I TRUST SEVERUS SNAPE :. From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 08:24:21 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:24:21 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > I know that everyone is composing serious posts right now, and so far I > haven't seen anyone comment on the "funniest line" yet which was a > popular topic after OoP. Of all the great lines in the book ("I am not > worried, Harry, I am with you.." - sniffle!!), I think the funniest > has to be the Weasleys' poster: > > WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT YOU-KNOW-WHO > > WHEN YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT > > U-NO-POO ? > > Where does she get this stuff??? We were saying it all day at work > today (and I'm a veterinarian so it's even funnier!) Any other > favorite lines? > > ~~Allie You forgot the funniest part > WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT YOU-KNOW-WHO > > WHEN YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT > > U-NO-POO - THE CONSTIPATION SENSATION THAT'S GRIPPING THE NATION! Also along these lines. >From the start of "Hermione's helping hand" Nonverbal spells were expected not only in DADA but in Charms and Transfiguration too. Harry frequently looked over at his classmates in the common room or at mealtimes to see them purple in the face and straining as though they had overdosed on u-no-poo;... I know it might be the five year old in me but a good poop joke still makes me laugh or in this case a not being able to poop joke. brent From abha_j at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 08:09:09 2005 From: abha_j at yahoo.com (abha_j) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:09:09 -0000 Subject: Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP) In-Reply-To: <20050720005135.92866.qmail@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133406 > D. wrote: > I didn't notice any increasing nastiness either, except the BANG > with Sectumsempra. It's probably another case of JKR's lazy (and > somewhat cheating) writing style, she kept rely on 'telling' by > inserting Hermione's warning dislike of the Prince and noting > him "not-so-nice", but as a reader I don't see how she came to > that conclusion. But there was the spell to levitate a person which was definitely on the nasty side. (I'm sorry, I dont have to book to quote the exact spell name.) The book started with harmless bits about potions, then mentioned the levitation spell, and went on to Sectumsempra. This definitely looks like increasing nastiness to me. - Abha From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jul 20 08:49:48 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:49:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133407 In a message dated 7/19/2005 1:12:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, adesahafford at wmconnect.com writes: Or, is Snape covering for someone else who *was* there 50 years ago? Riddle was there, as was Hagrid. Both are half-bloods, though Hagrid would probably not have the magical ability demonstrated by our friend the Prince. -------------- Sherrie here: Hagrid also never made it to Advanced Potions - he was expelled in third year. My reading was that this was originally Snape's mother's book - don't ask me why, it was just the gut feeling I got. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 08:54:23 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:54:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Theories: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: <42DD64DE.4060504@telus.net> References: <42DD64DE.4060504@telus.net> Message-ID: <8bcc8645b3181a309840f456eedf52b9@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133408 On Jul 19, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > If any of you have lasted through this, what really bothers me is > Snape's family. His mother was a witch and his father a muggle.? How > do > we reconcile this with Snape's pride in his family.? The > similarities between > Harry, Voldemort and Snape have been increasing throughout the books. > I usually dislike the "Luke, I am your father" theories that swirl around the HP series, but after this book I've increasingly wondered if Tom Riddle Jr. and Eileen Prince didn't have some type of ongoing relationship. I'm currently of the mind that perhaps it is possible that Snape knew Voldemort when Snape was a young boy. I can't think of any other reason, other than a red-herring for HBP that JKR would have pointed out the time period in which Eileen Prince attended Hogwarts. She was obviously there at the same time as TRJr. Perhaps she was either used by him to further his own aims, or was one of his early friends. Katherine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 09:17:25 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:17:25 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133409 > anthyroserain: > > The ring cracked, I believe, when the Horcrux was destroyed... > > > > This might indicate that Voldemort, by killing Lily (the last > > death to split his soul) attempted to make Harry into a Horcrux but > > failed--the power of Lily's love and protection actually caused the > > Horcrux to destroy itself as it was being created. But then again, > > this would mean that Voldemort didn't ever intend Harry to die > > (Harry would become a receptacle of his soul), which seems unlikely, > > given the Prophecy. > Chys: There are so many posts it's hard to keep it straight so as I go from oldest to newest, forgive me if I bring up something that's already mentioned! For a while I believed I was the only person who had thought this, that Harry was a Horcrux, but it makes me happy to see that so many others agree with me! Maybe the horcrux part of Harry was that the prophecy was the reason for its creation- DD mentioned that the prophecy was the catalyst where LV was concerned, but not in those words, and that LV believed that Harry was the only one who could kill him, and so in fulfilling the prophecy he acted thusly: so he made certain that Harry would Live with a bit of His soul in his body, and then he never truly would die, even if Harry destroyed him! He would be alive still through Harry, and so his only means of destruction is also his saviour. I wonder if Harry had given a part of himself back to LV during the graveyard scene in book 4, and if that was the reason why LV insisted on Harry instead of any other wizard, since he's the one with his own soul within? Makes me think of that gleam of triumph in DD, or if that was in fact, the moment that DD realized that Harry was the missing Horcrux. But would that stop Harry from having a bit of LV in him Still? Blood is blood and he's still got his blood, thankfully. He's still a parselmouth, right? Still has the scar. I think if it were a case of releasing the horcrux completely from Harry, that the scar would vanish and snakes might not be so chatty in the future. Chys From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 09:20:45 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:20:45 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat A Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133410 JKR said something about there would be more about the sorting hat, or there is more to it than we know. This pertaining to book 7, if what I read from (was it mugglenet??? One of those places...) is correct? I wondered if the sorting hat wasn't the Gryffindor Horcrux? Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 09:34:53 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:34:53 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat A Horcrux?- Portrait as a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Lattes" wrote: > JKR said something about there would be more about the sorting hat, or > there is more to it than we know. This pertaining to book 7, if what I > read from (was it mugglenet??? One of those places...) is correct? > > I wondered if the sorting hat wasn't the Gryffindor Horcrux? > > Chys Erm, sorry about that, just noticed someone else posted the same thing. *is a slow reader* I don't know why Harry didn't ask about it in the book though! *then again, Harry doesn't ask about much at all, does he? It's infuriating if I have a question and it's not answered in the book!* So is it possible that LV perhaps had rigged one of the portraits/paintings in Hogwarts to be one of his Horcruxes, then rigged a permanent sticking charm to the back? He would have had to have rigged the memory of the portrait's subject, if one can do that. Makes me wonder about Sir Cadogan's oddness. Chys From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 10:09:05 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:09:05 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "auntydle" wrote: Auntydle > I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just > discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the > number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to > follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of > her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the > number of the platform? ...just wondering. Geoff: Apart from being a plot device to catch Harry's attention, I suspect it was a rhetorical question - to herself. Do you ever find yourself saying to yourself out loud, "Now what's the telephone number of the bank?" or "What time did Bill say he was coming home?" or something similar. I do. From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 10:55:20 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:55:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adventure and Harry's Death? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80fba3145605cf18a55cb253ddc43788@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133413 Okay, okay. I don't want Harry to die in Book 7. That's my one plea. Well, that and I want him to LHEA with Ginny. But was it a bit of foreshadowing when Dumbledore says to Harry (paraphrased): "Forth to Adventure" in Book 6? If, after all, "to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." Just wondering. Katherine From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 10:59:45 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:59:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRASTIC LIST, DREAD SINKING (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133414 Dumbledore Reveals All Snape's Tribulations In Cave, Locket Is Still Trapped. Dumbledore's Relation Ese!Aberforth Declared, Someone Inquire!(alternative spelling) No-one Knows It's Not Gone. D.R.A.S.T.I.C L.I.S.T, D.R.E.A.D. S.I.N.K.I.N.G. To cut the preamble and get straight to the theory, go to ********* Saraquel was pacing the 7th floor corridor, muttering. "I need a watertight theory, I need a watertight theory, I need . Oh!" To her utter surprise a door appeared in the wall. Heart in mouth she pushed the door slowly open and walked forward into a vast hanger which appeared to be arching over a marina. She could smell the sharp tang of the sea, but all she could see were wharves and wharves filled with every sort of imaginable craft stretching to seeming infinity in all directions. "Ahem." Saraquel jumped and looked down to see an elf smartly dressed in a creaseless white pillowcase with a square neck edged in blue, bowing low before her. "Plank , The Keeper of the Hangar of Theories, at your service. How can I be of assistance?" Saraquel, surprised to find anyone here, quickly recovered, mumbling, "Er, yes, I er need a watertight theory, well maybe one that's not too leaky " Her voice tailed away. The elf smiled eagerly. "But of course, concerning ..?" "Oh, potions and lockets mainly." "Ah, squeaked Plank excitedly, there hasn't been much demand for those, but I thought the hurricane might change things. We did a roaring trade in memory theories before the storm." He said, indicating a wharf slightly to the left, where Saraquel recognised a couple of smallish boats. She noted sadly that H.I.D.D.E.N P.O.O was all that was left of the name of one vessel. She had remembered admiring it from the shore before the hurricane came through and wondered if there was anything worth salvaging left on board. Plank was tugging, gently but firmly at her sleeve, "Please walk with me," he said. Saraquel followed as they turned away from the memory wharf and passed one signposted Powers and another ESE!DD. Plank, tutted and looked away as they hurried past it. "Would Mistress like a TOE?" Saraquel looked puzzled and eventually muttered, "Well, I suppose I will need a tow, I doubt I'll last very long." Plank, smiled nervously unsure how to respond, then realising, he suddenly bowed very low and said "Oh forgive me Mistress, I did not make myself clear, I meant a Theory of Everything." "Oh goodness, no! I was only looking for something fairly small and robust, that could perhaps be added to if it proves seaworthy. It's my first real outing you know." Plank looked somewhat crestfallen but did his best to mask it, "Ah, otherwise I was going to offer you " He gestured towards a magnificent craft called The Poitioneer, which looked brand spanking new. "Oh, no! You see, initially, I'm interested in what that potion was that DD drank in the cave. It seems to me that it is really rather key." "Perhaps the boatbuilding bay will be the best place Mistress. Please come this way" and Plank led her to a small workshop full of rather unpromising materials, hidden behind a battered door. "If Mistress could explain further, Plank is very sorry not to have studied legilimancy, but it is forbidden for us elves to even contemplate.." "Oh no, I quite understand." Saraquel interrupted, embarrassed. Taking a deep breath she started: ***************************************************** (All quotes from UK editions) If we assume that the real Horcrux has been stolen by RAB, then the original potion made by Voldemort must have been drunk, and the potion now in the basin has been created by RAB, after he (and I do think RAB was Regulus Black ? more about that in a minute) replaced the locket. Which means Voldemort's potion left him standing ? hmmm, I think not. I think that the potion is Voldemort's original. DD assumes that it has been created by Voldemort and says this to Harry ? Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." So what potions would we put in to get that result? PS Pb edition ch8 p103 "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." This is also the potion which Harry made so brilliantly in HBP using Snape's potion book. This would keep someone alive, but leave them lying at the foot of the basin. Its colour is the palest of pink (HBP p 181) Veritaserum would of course ensure that they reveal their secrets. Veritaserum is colourless and odourless (HBP ch12 p175) There may well be another potion or potions involved here, as the colour of the potion in the basin is emerald green and luminescent. I'm sure that I've read of Hermione successfully making something like this, but I can't find it. Also, blending potions, may well not be the same as blending paint colours!! There is one interesting remark, which might well be a clue on p535 it says "Dumbledore drank, as though it was an antidote Harry offered him " If we watch the effect of the potion on DD, we see that half way through the fourth goblet he is described: (HBP Ch26, p534) "His face was twitching as though he were deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream." Then later, as DD is lying at the bottom of the tower he is described (End ch28 p 568) "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping." Now, assuming that Vertaserum is in the mix and Voldemort wants to find out DD's motives for getting the Horcrux, what do we make of what DD is saying. Well, I thought it could well be DD's memory of Snape recanting. Stay with me here I promise I'll explain! One thing that we don't yet know is the nature of the bond that occurs between wizards when one saves the other's life. Remember, James saved Snape's life, so Snape is bonded in some way to James. What if that bond has some sort of kickback if it is abused. By Snape informing Voldemort of the prophesy, he directly endangered James's life and would therefore be responsible for James's death. This could well have effects like the breaking of an Unbreakable Vow. I won't quote the whole passage of what DD says, but I think it fits. Remarks like "It's all my fault" " I know I did wrong" "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please." Breaking the bond could start up some sort of punishment by something like ghosts, or souls beyond the veil. P353 "Dumbledore began to cower as though invisible torturers surround him:" Then there is loads of - please make it stop and I'll do anything sort of remarks. This makes much more sense of DD trusting Snape because of his remorse over dropping James in it. If there was real punishment for abusing the bond, then DD could have exacted some sort of promise from Snape at that time, which released him from the torture he was experiencing. But Snape is then bound, possibly unwillingly, to stay on the side of good. Or maybe, the bond simply moved on to Harry ? I don't know about this, there could be lots of loopholes here. BUT, if this is the memory of Snape's recanting, it really fits incredibly well with the Vertaserum theory. Remember, Voldemort wants to know why anyone would be intent on emptying the basin. Why does DD want to get the Horcrux? He wants to make sure that Harry survives. Why is Harry likely not to survive? Other than the fact that there might be more Horcruxes out there, the main thing in DDs mind is that Voldemort has chosen to believe the prophecy and acted upon it. If he had not chosen to act upon it there would be no problem for Harry. Ch23 p476 "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says in only significant because Voldemort made it so. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him ? and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!" Therefore DD reveals his true reason for trying to get the Horcrux in the basin is tied up with the interpretation of the prophecy and Harry's involvement. It is NOT just to try and destroy Voldemort. Hence, his memory of the first time he learned that Voldemort was going to act on what Snape had told him. Hope that's clear. Now for the water that forms the lake. I don't think it is water at all. I think it is something like an Invigoration Draught (OotP ch29 p582) The lake is described as not behaving like water, the ripples die too quickly etc. (someone else might be able to help me out here with another appropriate potion) If this is still the setup which Voldemort left, then he would need some sort of restorative potion to revive the person out cold from the Draught of Living Death, so he could get the information from them. Note, that after Harry has thrown it on DDs face, he comes to life enough to cast the fire spell. He would still however be experiencing the effects of veritserum (unless of course he has blocked them!) which makes the remark right at the end of the chapter about not being worried because he is with Harry, all the more touching. Now for the locket. Yes, well this where things get a bit dodgy, but they could hold together as long as the wind doesn't get up. Harry does not look properly at the locket in the cave (ch26 p537) "he barely registered the golden locket lying curled beneath it." DD picks it up later and scoops it into his pocket. They then exit stage right back to Hogwarts. So Harry does not know at that point what locket was lying in the basin. Now, if , unlike Plank the elf, you are still awake, we will make a small diversion from Harry and DD and go back to the mysterious RAB. I'm not the first person to link RAB with Regulus Black, and there are plenty of posts already linking the locket which no-one could open in Grimauld Place, with the little treasure store which Kreacher hid away, with Mundungus and his suitcase in Hogsmead, with the unnamed barman from the Hogshead, whom, I believe it is commonly know is DD's brother Aberforth. I'm not sure where JKR mentioned this, but I do remember reading that she has pretty well admitted that it is him. Well now I'm going to Christen him either ESE! Aberforth, or ESH!Aberforth (Ever so Helpful). But before we get to that, let's go back a bit. Let's say that Regulus Black discovered Voldemort's secret and found one of his Horcruxes ? and I don't for one minute think it was the locket. Let's say it was one of the other ones, but not Nagini. OK, it's a puzzle quite how it happens, I can't provide chapter and verse, the important thing is that the Horcrux he found was NOT Voldemort's locket. This false!locket is now IMO in Aberforth's hands. Harry finds the false!locket under his knee at the end of Ch28 and assumes that it has fallen out of DDs pocket when he fell. Well actually, that's sort of wishful thinking because what it actually says is (ch28 p568) "The locket they had managed to steal so many hours before had fallen out of Dumbledore's pocket." So really this whole thing hinges on whether you believe that ESE!Aberforth/ESH!Aberforth (for who knows what his motives were) put the locket beside DDs body before Harry got there or it really is the locket they found in the cave. If at this point you are cursing me roundly for leading you a long trail only to let you down ? then please provide a better explanation for what is happening with the potion in the Cave, and if it was put there by RAB (and possibly a n other Kreacher ? nod to thread on list!) what was he hoping to achieve, given that the writer of the message knows that he can't kill Voldemort ? "I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more." And why isn't he lying on the rock in a stupor waiting for Voldemort to arrive having had to drink Voldemort's potion? If DD still has the real locket in his pocket, then it's locked inside the tomb with him and it will provide a good plot twist later. (Ch30 p 606) "If Dumbledore was right ? and I'm sure he was ? there are still four of them out there. I've got to find them and destroy them and then I've got to go after the seventh bit of Voldemort's soul" But let's leave the ramifications of that until we've tested the seaworthiness of this theory on TBAY. ***************************** Plank, was staring at Saraquel with glazed eyes, and she wondered whether house elves had the ability to sleep with their eyes open, in common with other of their kinfolk in a different book. The lengthy silence brought him round, and he jumped up in confusion. Then grasping a rubber ring which had been embellished with bells and whistles and had a rubber duck as it's figurehead, he bowed low and presented it to Saraquel. "Ah, right. Not that seaworthy then eh " Saraquel stuffed the bottle of 10 year old Bruichladdich she'd brought to keep her spirits up, into her inside pocket. Squished the rubber ring over her head and waded gingerly into the calm and as yet empty waters of TBAY. Disclaimer: although I've read a fair number of posts, there is no way that I've read all of them. If I've repeated things that have already been posted and not credited them please accept my apologies and if you reply to this post, please create a link to your original post. Saraquel From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 11:38:12 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:38:12 -0000 Subject: More funny lines in the book. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133415 Some of the lines which made me chuckle the most were some of the deadpan responses given by Dumbledore at 4 Privet Drive: `"Good evening. You must be Mr. Dursley. I daresay Harry has told you I would be coming for him?"... ..."Judging by your look of stunned disbelief, Harry did not warn you that I was coming," said Dumbledore pleasantly. "However, let us assume that you have invited me warmly into your house."' (HBP "Will and Won't" p.48 UK edition) `These words seemed to rouse Uncle Vernon... ... "I don't mean to be rude ?" he began, in a tone that threatened rudeness in every syllable. "- yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often," Dumbledore finished the sentence gravely. "Best to say nothing, my dear man."' (ibid. P.49) ...and when Aunt Petunia enters... `"Albus Dumbledore," said Dumbledore when Uncle Vernon failed to effect an introduction. "We have corresponded, of course." Harry thought this an odd way of reminding Aunt Petunia that he had once sent her an exploding letter, but Aunt Petunia did nor challenge the term... ...as the silence stretched on, he smiled. "Shall we assume that you have invited me into your sitting room?"... ..."We shall trespass upon your aunt and uncle's hospitality only a little longer." "You will, will you?" Vernon Dursley had entered the room, Petunia at his shoulder and Dudley skulking behind them both. "Yes," said Dumbledore simply, "I shall."' (ibid. 49-50) I would love to have been a fly on the wall after Harry and Dumbledore leave... :-) From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 12:07:56 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:07:56 -0000 Subject: Meaning of the "Tower" Card/Snape's Other Secret?/POA foreshadowing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133416 A few ideas-- With the debate swirling on about the meaning of what happened in the Lightening Struck Tower Chapter, I thought it might be helpful to look at the Tarot card from which the chapter takes its name. It is trump #16 of the Major Arcana of the Tarot, is traditionally associated with the planet Mars, and has been called by various names through the ages, including the Tower of Babel, The House of God, the House of the Devil (go figure) Go here for a picture of it: http://www.facade.com/tarot/description/?Deck=rider_waite&Card=17 If you really want to go to town, check out this iconographic/historical essay: http://tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/tower Like the HP series, tarot cards are subject to endless and sometimes contradictory interpretations, but here are some typical meanings attributed to the tower: Conflict, change, unforeseen catastrophe. Old notions upset...overthrow of existing way of life. Disruption will bring enlightenment in its wake -- Eden Gray, Mastering the Tarot Destruction (is) an idea that conveys the card's usual meaning. But we can also look at this card in a different way, as the lightening flash of revelation...In normal usage we can think of the lightening as...some kind of discovery that unlocks a secret or ends an illusion under which we are laboring. --Rachel Pollack, The Complete Illustrated Guide to the Tarot. Here's what I take from this card, in the context of HBP: If the change is unforeseen, a bolt from the blue, that would argue against the theory that Dumbledore's murder was some kind of plan between DD and Snape. If it means shattering of illusions...well, that Dumbledore always knows best, the Snape is on the side of the Order -- these illusions are now well shattered. But then, I'm in the contra Snape camp :-) Speaking of Snape, somewhere on the web (forget where) someone observed that Snape's mother, Eileen Prince, would only have to take one letter out of her name to become Pince...Madam Pince? We know that Eileen was cross and sullen, not a looker, and we know that Snape's house in Spinner's End was full of books. Does he live with his mother? Think about it: Severus Snape, Master Spy, Counsel to the Wicked, Bringer of Destruction...Mama's boy? Heh heh. BTW, finally pegged one of the foreshadowings of HBP in the POA movie: Buckbeaks attack on Werewolf Lupin anticipates his attack on Snape in Chapter 28. Got this on the second reading -- in too much shock the first time to notice. Inkling From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jul 20 12:13:26 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:13:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape's betrayal set up from Bk4? Message-ID: <65.49962ccd.300f99e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133417 In a message dated 7/19/2005 10:49:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, lisamconley at yahoo.com writes: > Does he mean Snape is and *always was* his most faithful servant??? No. Snape *is* the one 'who has left me forever'. Chapter two, Spinner's End to Bellatrix: "The Dark Lord's initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure you, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man. yes, the Dark Lord thought I had left him forever, but he was wrong." The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 12:21:03 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:21:03 -0000 Subject: More funny lines in the book. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133418 HBP Chpt 3 "Will and Won't" UK ed p 50 "He [Dumbledore] dre his wand so rapidly that Harry barely saw it; with a casual flick, the sofa zoomed forwards and knocked the knees out from under all three of the Dursleys so that they collapsed upon it in a heap. Another flick of the wand and the sofa zoomed back to its original position. "We may as well be comfortable," said Dumbledore pleasantly." UK ed p 53 "...Uncle Vernon shouted, "Will you get these ruddy things off us?" Harry looked round; all three of the Dursleys were cowering with their arms over their heads as their glasses bounced up and down on their skulls, the contents flying everywhere. "Oh I'm so sorry," said Dumbledore politely, and he raised his wand again. All three glasses vanished. "But it would have been better manners to drink it you know." " Chpt 15 "The Unbreakable Vow" UK ed p291/2 [Harry has just asked Luna to the party as friends, overheard by Peeves] "And he [Peeves] zoomed away, cackling and shrieking, "Potty loves Luny!" "Nice to keep these things private," said Harry." Karen From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 12:27:33 2005 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (Edis) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:27:33 -0000 Subject: Why DD trusts Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" > The Unbreakable Vow requires a third party, and so far no one has > hinted that they understand why DD trusts Snape so much. Of course, > this alone does not negate the hypothesis. > Julie Just a thought - Hagrid has always been very very very sure of Snape's loyalty. Now this could be overwhelming confidence in Dumbledore's judgement, but Hagrid has also boasted of how much Dumbledore trusts him (Hagrid). Granted, Hagrid is not a qualified Wizard... but maybe the bonder just has to channel the magic. From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 20 12:39:50 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:39:50 -0000 Subject: Meaning of the "Tower" Card / TAROT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > A few ideas-- > > With the debate swirling on about the meaning of what happened in > the Lightening Struck Tower Chapter, I thought it might be helpful > to look at the Tarot card from which the chapter takes its name. > > It is trump #16 of the Major Arcana of the Tarot, is traditionally > associated with the planet Mars, and has been called by various > names through the ages, including the Tower of Babel, The House of > God, the House of the Devil (go figure) > > Go here for a picture of it: > > http://www.facade.com/tarot/description/?Deck=rider_waite&Card=17 > > If you really want to go to town, check out this > iconographic/historical essay: > > http://tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/tower > > Like the HP series, tarot cards are subject to endless and sometimes > contradictory interpretations, but here are some typical meanings > attributed to the tower: > > Conflict, change, unforeseen catastrophe. Old notions > upset...overthrow of existing way of life. Disruption will bring > enlightenment in its wake -- Eden Gray, Mastering the Tarot > > Destruction (is) an idea that conveys the card's usual meaning. But > we can also look at this card in a different way, as the lightening > flash of revelation...In normal usage we can think of the > lightening as...some kind of discovery that unlocks a secret or ends > an illusion under which we are laboring. --Rachel Pollack, The > Complete Illustrated Guide to the Tarot. > > Here's what I take from this card, in the context of HBP: > > If the change is unforeseen, a bolt from the blue, that would argue > against the theory that Dumbledore's murder was some kind of plan > between DD and Snape. > > If it means shattering of illusions...well, that Dumbledore always > knows best, the Snape is on the side of the Order -- these illusions > are now well shattered. > (snip the rest of the post) > Inkling Now me: There's the Tower in the series, and there's also the Hanged-man (Snape in the Pensieve scene, in OotP). So my question is: does JK Rowling follow in her series a program based on Tarot? Personally, I see five Arcana from the 21 / 22 you can find in Tarot: theHAnged-man (12); Death (13); Temperance (14); the Devil (15) ; the Tower (16). Dumbledore at the beginning of PS/SS could turn out to be the 1 st Arcanum, but as for the following cards,I don't know where they are hiding. I'd be glad if someone managed to find them,supposing they are inthe series. I've already put what follows on other lists I belong to, see whether it can help. Possible summary, if the series happens to follow the Arcana: 12) The Hanged Man, and Harry doesn't study Occlumency any more, so he has a vision that leads to the Minister raid and to 13) Death, with Sirius passing through the Veil, and Harry finally learning that he has to start a new period in his life, as the Chosen One. Such a revelation makes him become quieter and leads him to 14) Temperance, thanks to which he is able to attend Dumbledore's lessons, to follow him quietly in the Pensieve, in order to face 15) Devil, because this is what Tom Riddle is actually. Because of him, Dumbledore has to sacrifice his own life on 16) The Lightning-Struck Tower, where Harry looses his mentor but reaches at the same time another level, and starts a new period, as he decides to hunt Voldemort... See if it's worth playing cards with Harry, Amicalement, Iris From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 12:53:35 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat A Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720125335.75180.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133421 --- Chys Lattes wrote: > JKR said something about there would be more about > the sorting hat, or > there is more to it than we know. This pertaining to > book 7, if what I > read from (was it mugglenet??? One of those > places...) is correct? > > I wondered if the sorting hat wasn't the Gryffindor > Horcrux? > > Chys I thought she said that before OOTP, and that it was probably referring to the hat not wanting sorting and the like? I can never keep *when* questions were asked straight. I think the sword might be a horcrux. Dumbledore said it was safe, but in the pensieve scene where Tom comes back and asks for a teaching job there's a twitch of his wand hand or his arm or something and I'm wondering whether that's because he modified Dumbledore's memory. Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 12:53:42 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:53:42 -0000 Subject: Nature of Love Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133422 Hoping the minds of this group can help me sort this out, as it is a little deep for me. What is the nature of love in the HP-verse? Not romantic "true" love, which seems to cure all, unless it is obsessive. Not comradely love, which is sort-of a Gryffindor given. Not love of self, because that is not really given merit in the series over its mirror, unselfish love, as illustrated by Lily and Dumbledore. I am more interested in the love known as agape, a condensed definition from Wikipedia being "divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing love" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape). In Dumbledore, especially, you have a character who treats all equally, and invites them into relationship, if not a close one. His is the non-differentiated love of a Christian-type god, but even better, as seemingly devoid of judgment or categorization of others, ever hopeful and generous. When he acts, Dumbledore goes after the violation of natural law in the creation of Horcruxes, but not after Voldemort/Tom Riddle the man, even though Voldemort is a sociopath. In showing Harry the pensieve scenes to enable him to find the weakness in Voldemort, Dumbledore is also allowing Harry to experience compassion. This goes to the question of what Dumbledore is pleading for Snape to do at the end of HBP. If he asks Snape to kill him, then he is asking Snape to commit an Unforgiveable Curse, a tearing of Snape's soul. Is this an act of love on Dumbledore's part? Is the destruction of one man's soul worth the greater good? (Leaving aside that choosing to fulfill this request may be an act of love on Snape's part.) If he does not ask Snape to kill him, and is pleading for Snape to save his own soul, does Snape's choice say that he was doing what was easy over what was right? Perhaps compassion for Draco and Narcissa drove his decision. Perhaps he saw Dumbledore's death as serving a greater good. Perhaps, for whatever reason, love has never been able to reach him. Of course there are other factors: the whole Unbreakable Vow thing, a sleight of hand, as it throws the role of choice into suspicion; the intentional freezing of Harry, whether to prevent him for being injured or from injuring someone else; the possibility that Snape did not kill Dumbledore, but made it seem as if he did. But if the theme of the books is perhaps love and choice, then I am wondering how these themes are playing out so far. lealess From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 20 12:59:40 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:59:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Personality (Was HBP Thoughts, Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133423 > vmonte: > There are a few clues though to Snape's personality. He is very > clever. He has the ability to talk himself out of anything. He has > both Voldemort and Dumbledore believing that he is on their side. > > In temperament though he is more like Voldemort than Dumbledore: > > He mistreats those he feels are beneath him > He has delusions of grandeur > He changes his name: like Tom Riddle and creates a new persona for > himself--he reinvents himself: TA DAH I'm the Half-Blood-Prince > He does not really have any friends and seems to prefer it that way > He is obsessed with the dark arts--he even invents more killing > curses (nice hobby) > He is rather sadistic and enjoys manipulating people with his words > He is a racist even though he is not a pure-blood > He came from an unhappy or neglected childhood > He holds grudges (the grudges are even against the children of the > people he hates) > He is emotionally stunted > He has probably killed several (many?) people since he was once a DE > He is so scary when he kills Dumbledore that even the baby eating > werewolf steps away from him in fear---LOL! > > > Didn't JKR once say that children are never fooled by this kind of > teacher... > > Maybe Harry is right! > Marianne: Thank you for putting this list together. I was starting to work on a post of "Snape as Voldemort Wanna-Be" but you've covered many of my points. I wonder if, in Snape's school days, he was recruited by Voldemort himself. Snape is obviously intelligent, and if he has a knack for developing spells that thrill those who practice the Dark Arts, it would not surprise me if he came early to the attention of Voldemort, perhaps through an introduction by Lucius Malfoy. Did Voldemort sense what buttons to press on young Snape? Did he draw parallels between his own life and that of Snape ? witch mother, Muggle father, fathers in both cases who did not love or respect their wives, and were dismissive of their sons? I'm extrapolating a good deal on Snape's family life judging from that one small Pensieve scene, but it fits with my thoughts. So, here's Lord Voldemort, impressing the young Snape, hinting at how he, too, can break free of the mundane wizard world, how he's much too intelligent, worthy, and skilled than others, especially those horrid Gryffindors. And, Snape, perhaps in a bit of hero- worship, styles himself the Half-Blood Prince. Whether or not he ever made mention of that title out loud to anyone else is debatable ? it might simply have been his own little ego boost, as if to say, "I'm better than the likes of purebloods like Potter and Black." Marianne (post #1 for the day) From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:14:44 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:14:44 -0000 Subject: Snape, Horcruxes and Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133424 > Laura C now: > What if Voldemort did not create the last Horcrux until after his > resurrection? It seems to me that this is not unlikely - while in > his babymort state it may have been too difficult to create another > Horcrux, however once he had fully returned to his corporeal state > this would be easier. > Saraquel now: Great original post for this thread and interesting comments afterwards. Creating Horcruxes interests me as well. I had assumed that LV must have created the Nagini Horcrux after his return to his body. But there does seem to be a puzzle, because of what his body actually looked like. Judging from the progression of Riddles/LVs physical appearance in the book, each Horcrux he made changed his physical appearance slightly. In the Horcruxes chapter (all my quotes come from the UK editions) p466, after Riddle has killed his father and made the ring Horcrux, Harry notes that his features were made "somehow less human". In Lord Voldemort's Request p409 when LV is at Hepzibah's, and after he has made the Diary Horcrux, Harry notes "There was no mistaking it this time: Voldemort's eyes flashed scarlet at her words." By the time we see him again at the Hogwarts interview, p413 he has presumably made the next two Horcruxes (Locket and cup)and was looking for the Gryffindor/Ravenclaw, his face looks like this: "His features were not those Harry had seen emerge from the great stone cauldron almost two years before; they were not as snakelike, the eyes were not yet scarlet, the face not yet masklike, and yet he was no longer the handsome Tom Riddle. It was as though his features had been burned and blurred .." However, the description of him in OotP p 716, matches the description in GOF which matches the face that had been haunting Harry for the past 3 years (GoF p 558). So either, he's gone beyong the point when his physical appearance changes, or he made the Horcrux before PS. Hmmm. Saraquel From hekele at mac.com Wed Jul 20 13:22:30 2005 From: hekele at mac.com (Heather) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:22:30 -0000 Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133425 Which would satisfy the curse. Excellent analysis. This fits much better to me than that he taught another subject before that. Thanks! Heather --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > I believe I have a simple answer to this. > > "He was fine while he was studying out of books but then he took a > year off ter get some > first-hand experience.... They say he met vampires in the Black > Forest, and there was a nasty bit o' trouble with a hag -- never been > the same since. Scared of the students, scared of his own subject..." > (pp. 70-71 US paperback) > > Key words in that phrase are that he took a year OFF. > > Which means, he taught one year, took a year off (and was filled by > someone else), then came back after being possessed. > > So he taught two years, just not consecutively. > > --Lawless > > > > On 7/19/05, makemeatree wrote: > > "jakedjensen" : > > > > > I always thought that Q had been in the position for at least > > > a year prior. Even if Q has taught somewhere else before, how > > > would Hagrid know that his is scared of his students? In > > > addition, no one talks about how Q is a new instructor in book > > > one. Usually, the new instructor is picked apart by the students > > > at the beginning of each year. > > > > > > I re-read this bit, too. I guess....it's more of a mistake, really, > > but I didnt have to give it much thought to rationalize it. > > > > It could be two things, or both, maybe: > > > > It could be that Quirrell was a student at Hogwarts, and then took > > the position, but before doing so, studied, traveled, got posessed > > by LV, etc. > > > > And/or it could be that Quirrell was a teacher at Hogwarts, > > teaching something else, and that yr was just his first yr teaching DADA. This would explain why people knew him already, knew his personality previous to the traveling, and why students didn't talk > > too much about him being 'new'. > > > > ..j. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 13:27:02 2005 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:27:02 -0000 Subject: The Absence of Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133426 If someone has already pointed this out, please forgive my oversight. . . I think that it was Dumbledore's intention to die the evening that Snape killed him because of the absence of Fawkes in Dumbledore's defense. Fawkes is extremely loyal to Dumbledore and has been there to protect him in all times of need. It was Fawkes who saved Harry from the Basilik's deadly stare, (presumably on Dumbledore's Orders) and it was Fawkes who swallowed the AV that Voldemort hurled at Dumbledore at the MoM battle in the OotP. Would Fawkes not have come to Dumbledore's aide, while he stood in such peril for such a long period of time? I don't think so, unless Dumbledore did NOT want him there. That would have been the only thing that would have prevented Fawkes from saving Dumbledore's life. (By either whisking him out of the situation (as in his office in OotP) or swallowing Snape's AV (as he did with Voldemort's curse). From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:29:38 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Funniest Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720132938.96993.qmail@web32703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133427 A favorite of mine: "...You shouldn't overexert yourself for a few hours.' 'I don't want to stay here overnight,' said Harry angrily, sitting up and throwing back his covers. 'I want to find McLaggen and kill him.' 'I'm afraid that would come under the heading of 'overexertion',' said Madam Pomfrey...." (Pg. 416 US) Lynn test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Wed Jul 20 08:41:08 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:41:08 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable vows In-Reply-To: <13e.176af5b9.300e477e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > 3. Several overheard conversations are ambiguous enough to be > supportive--Hagrid heard DD and Snape arguing, Snape saying DD took too much for granted and > maybe he didn't want to do it anymore, and DD replying that Snape had agreed > to do it and that was all there was to it. That could easily be construed as > Snape having second thoughts about killing DD if it became necessary, and DD > reminding Snape he had promised (even given an unbreakable vow). Regarding this theory on an unbreakable vow between Snape and Dumbledore - then there must be a third person who knows about Snape's role since the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa had to have a witness - Bellatrix. Therefore someone must have performed that task if Snape and Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow. Who is the witness?? "wapp13" From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 08:48:59 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:48:59 -0000 Subject: Is Nagini really a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133429 I'm skeptical about this. It never really says outright that she is. it just says that Dumbledore believes that she is. In fact it doesn't say outright that living things can even be horcruxes. Again, it is just Dumbledore's belief. As a practical matter, what would be the advantage of a living horcrux? It seems like you would have to make sure it didn't die. A non-living horcrux just seems like a better choice to me. Just put it in a piece of jewelry or something and stash it somewhere. Then you don't have to worry about it dying, you don't have to feed it, you don't have to do anything. A living horcrux just sounds like a lot of unnecessary trouble to me, with no real advantages. snipsnapsnurr From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 09:01:45 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:01:45 -0000 Subject: why not get more help? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133430 Hi Potterphiles! While vaccuming the stairs this morning,I thought of something. Why doesn't the OOP get some international help to fight Voldemort? Why try to take him and the death eaters on all by themselves? When I think of Voldemort, I think of someone as evil as Hitler. When Hitler was in power, it took more than one country to bring down his reign of terror. It seems unbelievable to me that the other countries wouldn't know what was going on in Britian and want to help. Does anyone eles have any thoughts on this? snapeo'phile From rtb333 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:32:25 2005 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:32:25 -0000 Subject: Snape, Horcruxes and Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > > Laura C now: > > What if Voldemort did not create the last Horcrux until after his > > resurrection? It seems to me that this is not unlikely - while in > > his babymort state it may have been too difficult to create another > > Horcrux, however once he had fully returned to his corporeal state > > this would be easier. Rob Now: I believe that you are correct, but I would also like to add that I believe the hand that he gave Pettigrew to be the other Horcrux. Pettigrew was a Gryffindor and we have not seen him since GOF and we now know that he has been hiding in Snapes place. Voldemort wants to keep the Horcruxes as far away and protected as possible. I think that the favor that Peter owes Harry for sparing his life will be to destroy the silver hand he now bears. I also believe that the hand is a replacement for the destroyed diary. So we have the locket(I belive is at Grimauld Place), the cup(probably at Riddle Manor...I still want to research Chapter 1 of book 4 for any passing references), Nagini (which I believe Voldemort keeps close incase he is seperated from his body again) The ring and Book have been destroyed. The thing of Ravenclaws and another unknown horcrux, will not be revieled until book 7. Please don't be angry if this is already posted as it is nearly impossible to keep up with all of the posts. Rob From christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 09:20:50 2005 From: christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk (christopher) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:20:50 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore's request of the Dursleys Reasonable (Spoilers for HBP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133432 This is my first post, so I hope it is put together okay. Anyway in Chapter 3 (Will and Won't) of HBP, after explaining about the blood protection (Voldermort cannot hurt Harry whilst he is at the Dursleys'), Dumbledore asks the Dursleys to let Harry return one more time, so that the protection lasts until he is seventeen. This seems reasnoable on the surface, but imo it is not reasonable. Here is my reasoning. 1: We know the protection applies to Harry, but does it protect the Dursley's as well. 2: If it doesn't protect the Dursley's then Dumbledore is asking them to risk their lives for a world, which they don't want to be involved in. Voldermort from what i understand, is quite capble of killing or ordering killing to be done. Christopher From starzzzcollide at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 10:42:11 2005 From: starzzzcollide at yahoo.com (Homero Luna) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:42:11 -0000 Subject: Azkhaban and dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133433 One of the things that snagged my interest is the issue of the Dementors and Azkhaban. Early in the book we find out that the Dementors have abandoned the prison (and don't they also say that most/many of the prisoners have, therefore, escaped?). However, we also see several references to Lucius Malfoy and Stan Shunpike being held in Azkhaban. I believe it's Dumbledore who even says that Lucius probably feels safer in Azkhaban, given LV's displeasure with him. How/why are Wizards even being sent to Azkhaban w/o Dementors to guard the prison? The wizards have their wands taken away, and therefore can't "Alohomora" their way out so easily, but there's still the issue of emotion-driven magic. Surely a very-ticked Lucius could bust down a wall or two without his wand. Best, Homero From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Wed Jul 20 09:05:18 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:05:18 -0000 Subject: The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133434 > I for one really didn't hate Snape for what he did to Dumbledore. > At least not until we see this act of his thoroughly explained in > the next book. But my theory is that Snape only killed Dumbledore > because Snape is human. He knows what the penalty is for breaking > an Unbreakable Vow and that is his life. True, that's very selfish > of him to think about his own skin but really, we would've thought > about our own skins when we are in the same situation right? He's on a double whammy really, isn't he. If he doesn't kill Dumbledore and he's participated in an unbreakable vow he dies anyway; if he doesn't kill Dumbledore and he's not on an unbreakable vow then Voldemort knows he's a traitor and kills him anyway! "wapp13" From literature_Caro at web.de Wed Jul 20 10:50:33 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_caro) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:50:33 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy--Let "Desperate Hope" Reign! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133435 > I agree with this. I believe the only reason Snape did AK was because of the Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore knows that Snape did the Vow (since Harry told him about it) and Snape could've told him as well. It could be just that Snape didn't know what he was promising to do in case Draco fails to do it, and in turn Dumbledore does not know it as well. The pleading in Dumbledore's voice when Snape was about to kill him could be his realizing his mistake in not investigating the Vow further, not because he realized Snape has betrayed him... Evil Snape, Evil Dumbledore? I hope it really isn't that way... > > Benigs I do believe that Snape betrayed Dumbeldore, though I really hate to say that! The indication for this lies within the potion which weakened him (and which I would like to call "the Potion of Mortal Knowledge"). What he says there could imply that he now sees it all real and how he would be killed. He says that he did wrong, that people are suffering and in the end is ready to die. He even demands being killed! I think, for Dumbledore doesn't fear death as he has shown throughout the previous books in several little statements (best known in the ending of the Philosopher's Stone), he rather wanted to be killed than having the school suffering from the hunt for him. That sounds hard I know and I really was angry with Snape, but as Minerva says: He is a master of Occlumency! Caro From Fabre.a at caramail.com Wed Jul 20 10:58:23 2005 From: Fabre.a at caramail.com (a_fabrefr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:58:23 -0000 Subject: impression and question raised by HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133436 First I must say that I have really enjoyed HBP for me in take place about the best HP. In fact I find it better than OOTP more centered with a great storyline . And I was really shocked by the death of Dumbledore at Snape hand but I foud in this scene the same shock that in COS when I learned that Ginny was posseded. A quick collection of thought : Voldemort past, I find it really interresting to see voldermortpast , A just minor critic it seems that he was always marred, I would just have see a moment where a choice would have offered to him. Snape : Hard to say my first reaction was God he is really evil, butmy second thought was it's all covert, so I wait till the next book to learn the truth. Dumbledore death: quite shocking but expected, just for the sake of the story Dumbledore has to go on order that Harry has a little challenge (let's face the ende of OOTP with Dumbledore coming as the cavalry make that in order to build tension he has to be removed of the scene). And I really like the interaction between he and Harry The years in fact when we look back this years was really cool in Hogwarth after the really hard years in OOTP, I like this change of pace. Quidditch : It's me or the quidditch play a very little part in Harry now. Snape : If the potion books is Snape's I wonder how the magic communoty can keep the basic book for such a long time with so many flaws Horcruxe : a good idea on a narrative level I just Hope that the next volume will not be a treasure quest Weasley and Fleur: I really like the Fleur and Bill interaction, but I found the Weasley (at least Molly and Ginny) really hatefull for they comportment toward Fleur. We can assume that Bill is really in love with Fleur so that his mother try to destroy his couple and more try to arrange a wedding with someone else is completly scaring. Ginny giving a cruel nickname, making fun of Fleur toward and in her back and in the end after real act of love of Fleur just barely accepting her. All that I found really strange for such an open minded familly and really frightening by his xenophobic face. Ginny : I really don't like her in this volume, from her comportment toward Fleur, to all the accent put on her perfection. I've just one hope that the break-up in the end is for real because I can't see Harry going with her. Speaking of Ship, let me say I'm a H/H shipper, but I can stand other (except H/G which I found more compelling before HBP that after discovered his real personality) Bill and Fleur : I really enjoyed it Tonk and Remus : quite surprised and I must admit don't really see where he goes (at last in term of narrative structure), but otherwise great Harry and Ginny : In fact I found quite in Harry character to fall quickly for Ginny, It remind me a lot of Cho and Harry. Harry has a quickly crush toward Cho after he find her attractive , it was just delayed because of Cedric. But as I've said the character of Ginny was marred for me in HBP. Ron and Levander : Quite believable I found no real love sustained it just lust and was quickly over, the necklace was funny and the same time real it looks like thousand short lived love story in college. Ron and Hermione : I've never be able to understand the logic of their pairing but I can live with it (even if I favour H/H) few thing to say about it A note to Luna: her few appareance were Gold and I like her joy when Harry invite her to the Ball So that's my thought about HBP, really enjoyed reading and wait for the next one Alexandre PS : my first language is French so forget errors From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Wed Jul 20 11:47:14 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:47:14 +0200 Subject: SPOILER ALERT Harry the Horcrux References: <1121849394.1758.91827.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004601c58d21$3c089600$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 133437 Harry the last Horcrux unlikely. According to my understanding of the Horcrux process: First you have to commit murder in order to split your soul. Then there is a spell to be done in order to place the piece of soul into an object. Although Voldemort had just committed murder (James) he was in the process of another killing spell (green light) which rebounded off Harry. What was left of him was too weak to start casting spells (all he could do was take over the bodies of the lower forms of life - GOF) Lily's sacrifice was born of love and left something in Harry's blood that cannot be seen which protects him from Voldemort.(PS) Surely the love would not have tolerated something in Harry as evil as a bit of Voldemort's soul ? Just my 5 cents worth Sharon From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:45:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:45:10 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP - WEASLEY IS OUR KING! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lealess" wrote: > wrote: >We have: >1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring >2. Evil giant spiders >3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; Dead Marshes in LOTR) >4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the >leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) >5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) >6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) >7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past (Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). >8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; >C'ent'aurs in HP) > >Any others I've missed? > lealess: > Others have noted HP similarities to LOTR: > http://www.mugglenet.com/hpvslotr.shtml > > Let's suppose that this story is (slowly) following the outline of The Lord of the Rings. > We have an initially reluctant, heroic young man, set to do a daunting task and right wrongs from the past > We have friends going off on the great adventure, forsaking their > comfortable but changing homeworld > We have other warriors for the good fighting on other fronts (the > Order) > We have, of course, the great wizard, now gone > Let's not forget the great, non-human evil itself > And he's got a posse > We have the many non-DE supporters of evil on the home front, either > active (Fudge) or passive (Borgin & Burkes) > We have the would-be warlords aligned with evil (Lucius Malfoy) > We have the flawed principalities (Ministry, Durmstrang) > We have leaving an ideal place for a darker world of doom and destiny > So... what's left? Pathetic Gollum. The one who saves the day! > Who is Gollum in the story? > It couldn't really be Dobby, could it? > > Suppose it's Severus Snape > What can we expect from him, then? > He will do something wholly selfish which will save the day > What would cause him to do that wholly selfish thing? Dark Arts? the past? > > Or is Snape Wormtongue? no, that's probably Wormtail > Or is Snape Boromir? that's probably Draco > > Aragorn? The Half-Blood Prince, reclaiming his throne? vmonte now: I just figured out something (I think). Dumbledore is coming back, like Gandolf, but it's not going to be really Dumbledore. I admit that I was one of the people that believed the outrageous theory that Ron was Dumbledore, and I was wrong! I still wonder though why JKR had Ron in charge of the chess game in the SS/PS. I mean as soon as I read this scene I realized right away that the chess game was meant to be a metaphor for the old and new war against Voldemort. (Many book writers and posters have also pointed this out.) What I did not understand was why Ron was in charge of the game and not Harry? Granted I also understand that Harry is the "seeker" in the war, and that although he is part of the Order/Gryffindor team, he has always had a solitary role to play. In fact, the fact that Harry plays the part of the bishop in the chess game really seems to reflect his real role in the series (more detail later since I'm already late for work). Hermione is straight laced, moves in straight lines, so the rook/castle piece also fits her. So, why is Ron the Knight? Not only is he the knight but he is the stratigist in charge of where the pieces will go. Curious... So moving on, who do you think will become the Gryffindor team captain in book 7? Now that Harry is gone, will Ron take his place? Will he be an even better captain than Harry? Will he gain more confidence? JKR even lets us know at the end of HBP that the Gryff team can now survive even without Harry in the game (see last Quid game of HBP). I'm thinking that Ron will get this position. The stratigist finally gets show his skill. I noticed in HBP that JKR (another JKR joke?--geared for Ron=DD believers?) has spiders fall onto Dumbledore's head during a talk with Harry outside the Weasley property. Ok, we get it JKR, Ron is not Dumbledore (Ron is afraid of spiders, DD is not). Later in the book, Ron celebrates his birthday and his mother gives him a watch that sounds seems a lot like Dumbledores!???? Another JKR joke? Now that's just plain mean! :) JUST SO WE ARE CLEAR I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT RON IS DUMBLEDORE! But, what do you think would happen if at the final fight of book 7 Dumbledore were to burst in fighting? Who would get freaked out do you suppose? Would it throw anyone off guard? Maybe Snape? or Voldemort? I propose that Ron, who has always been out shined by both his friends will indeed have his real moment in the spotlight. Ron will find some of DD's hairs (on a brush, or in his office) and he will polyjuice himself to look like Dumbledore. Weasley is Our King! ROAR!!!!! Vivian - Who is ready to be wrong once again. From rtb333 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:44:48 2005 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:48 -0000 Subject: The Absence of Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > If someone has already pointed this out, please forgive my > oversight. . . > > I think that it was Dumbledore's intention to die the evening that > Snape killed him because of the absence of Fawkes in Dumbledore's > defense. > > Fawkes is extremely loyal to Dumbledore and has been there to protect > him in all times of need. It was Fawkes who saved Harry from the > Basilik's deadly stare, (presumably on Dumbledore's Orders) and it was > Fawkes who swallowed the AV that Voldemort hurled at Dumbledore at the > MoM battle in the OotP. > > Would Fawkes not have come to Dumbledore's aide, while he stood in > such peril for such a long period of time? I don't think so, unless > Dumbledore did NOT want him there. That would have been the only > thing that would have prevented Fawkes from saving Dumbledore's life. > (By either whisking him out of the situation (as in his office in > OotP) or swallowing Snape's AV (as he did with Voldemort's curse). Rob Now: I think that that is a valid point. It has sparked my memory though. In the end of COS Harry says that DD will alwas be around as long as those faithful to him are still here,(Not an exact quote, but I don't have the books in front of me) This promps Fawkes to come to his aid. He restates this at the end of HBP, this may be forshadowing Fawkes becoming Harry's phoenix. Just a thought. Rob From LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu Wed Jul 20 12:30:33 2005 From: LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu (Laura Herndon) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:30:33 -0400 Subject: Snape, Prophecy, Neville & Harry Message-ID: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337517C@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 133440 Has anyone else thought about how Snape's overhearing of the prophecy must have influenced his treatment of both Harry and Neville? Surely Snape was able to figure out the two boys fingered by the prophecy with the potential to defeat Voldemort. So, was Snape so cruel to Neville because he saw him as a threat, or was he trying to toughen Neville for his possible encounter? Just a thought, LEH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jenserai at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 12:45:02 2005 From: jenserai at hotmail.com (Jenserai Bariman) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:45:02 -0000 Subject: The Astute Mouth-Organ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133441 ADi says, "Hi, I haven't understood Harry's and Dumbledore's exchange about mouth-organ which DD even calls astute? WHat's a mouth organ got to do with destruction of the ring? Bye" I say, "I don't understand it either. A mouth-organ is among the things Riddle stole from the other kids at the orphanage, but I haven't the faintest idea what it has to do with the ring. Unless it's a really, really sloppy bit of fore-shadowing or something. Perhaps it's part of a sub plot that got edited out? I thought I caught some of those, but maybe I'm just being very dim." -Jens From kathrin.p at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 12:47:02 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:47:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e2ac8005072005476d8417c9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133442 Rachel said: > Ok, before I get into my next point, did DD ever say he did not > create a Horcruxe? I mean seriously, he said it was serious and all > that, but perhaps he created one? Could there be a piece of DD in > Fawkes, or in the sword? We saw him say the one relict from Gryffindor > was safe... meybe he knew that because he himself had used it? Can > one item be a horcue for more than one person? now Kathrin: Considering that you have to kill someone in order to create a Horcrux and it being Dark Magic: (all quotes UK edition (Bloomsbury) hardback, Chapter 23 'Horcruxes', page 464-465) "No... well... you'd be hard-pushed to find a book at Hogwarts that'll give you details on Horcruxes, Tom. That's very Dark stuff, very Dark indeed," said Slughorn. and "But how do you do it?" "By an act of evil - the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use damage to his advantage: he would encase the torn portion -" To be honest, I just don't see DD as the killer type of person. He is the last person ever I could imagine killing someone. Proof me wrong, if you know it better :-) (I seem to have no recollection whatsoever when it comes to OotP, as I realized earlier today :-( ) -- Kathrin ~~~~~ check out: http://plain-me.blogspot.com for the latest news on me http://book-a-holic.blogspot.com for my book addiction http://justitia.blogspirit.com for the German/law student part in me From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 13:49:37 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:49:37 -0000 Subject: Questions about the potion's book & Snape is innocent thoughts. In-Reply-To: <012901c58cbf$a2702d70$8100a8c0@portatilzas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > Here's something that has been bugging me since I finished reading. Just wanted to know what you think about it. > > I think Harry will go back to Hogwarts and retrieve Snape's book. JK gave us too much detail as to where he hid it, how he made sure he could find it later... etc. And the book has been great help, no only in potions, but with jinxes pretty useful. I think, too, that it hides some secrets about Snape something that can come as very important later. > Anyone agrees on this one? > Your post got me thinking of something else. Snape was awoken by Flitwick when during the DE attack. So, if Snape were "innocent" then Snape's belongings (his pensieve in particular) and other personal effects would still be in his Hogwarts quarters. Afterall, if Snape is still a member of the OoP, then he would leave his belongings behind as a symbol of fidelity (iow: "I'm leaving but I'm coming back so watch my stuff"). If Snape knew of this attack and he really is a DE, then he would have taken the appropriate measures to store his belongings elsewhere in anticipation of his defection. Milz From oz_aj2000 at yahoo.com.au Wed Jul 20 09:36:23 2005 From: oz_aj2000 at yahoo.com.au (whimsygirl666) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:23 -0000 Subject: The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133444 John: > DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to kill > him like a dog in the dirt. For this, Snape is, in my book, worthy > of death at the hands of Harry. In fact, I think I will start an I > hate Snape group here on Yahoo! Snape is pure evil and in my eyes, > should be treated as such for the reminder of the series. DD was not pleading for his life, just not; he's never displayed that character trait. I am sure he was asking Snape to kill him to save Draco. Plus, I suspect DD was dying anyway (not that that makes it better, just that DD knew). The two accomplished legilimens had a moment looking at each other before he did it - that was a big flashing sign. I'm a Snape supporter too, always have been, always will be until, he cannot be redeemed. Bring on book 7. "whimsygirl666" From literature_Caro at web.de Wed Jul 20 11:02:59 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_caro) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:02:59 -0000 Subject: Clarification of who is HBP (was: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133445 D. wrote: > > I didn't notice any increasing nastiness either, except the BANG > > with Sectumsempra. It's probably another case of JKR's lazy (and > > somewhat cheating) writing style, she kept rely on 'telling' by > > inserting Hermione's warning dislike of the Prince and noting > > him "not-so-nice", but as a reader I don't see how she came to > > that conclusion. Abha: > But there was the spell to levitate a person which was definitely > on the nasty side. The point which made me sure about who will be the HBP came long before Snape confessed to be. The handwriting! JK describes it quite clearly and if you go back to OOP than you can find this description again in the chapter where Harry breaks into Snape's memories in the pensive (sorry, I don't have the books with me to quote). Caro From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:18:46 2005 From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:18:46 -0000 Subject: killing = ripping soul? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133446 I haven't read all posts since the list opened, by any means. However, I have seen several posts now that make the assumption that killing with an Unforgivable automatically leads to ripping, or separating of one's soul. I thought the canon stated that if you wanted to split your soul, killing -- if not entirely necessary -- was at least desirable to assist the attempt. I didn't remember reading that soul- splitting was an unavoidable result, whether you wanted it or not. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I'll look it up later. Anyone else have it handy? Ellen From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 20 13:52:23 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:52:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unbreakable vows References: Message-ID: <005f01c58d32$43367210$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 133447 Wapp13 wrote: > Regarding this theory on an unbreakable vow between Snape and > Dumbledore - then there must be a third person who knows about > Snape's role since the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa had > to have a witness - Bellatrix. Therefore someone must have performed > that task if Snape and Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow. Who is > the witness?? > Me (fridwulfa): Aberforth, maybe??? Either him or Mad-Eye Moody. Don't ask me why, but I think it was someone from the old OOTP, someone DD trusted and these two are the only ones I can think of. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From melissac at self-serv.net Wed Jul 20 13:34:35 2005 From: melissac at self-serv.net (melissajcotton) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:34:35 -0000 Subject: Remeber what Dumbledore said Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133448 I haven't seen anyone mention part of the conversation Dumbledore had with Harry during the first private "lesson" they had together. He said that in seeing he was such a clever wizard - more clever than most - that his mistakes unfortunatley tend to be greater as well. Snape perhaps? Melissa From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jul 20 13:57:16 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:57:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP Theories Message-ID: <15c.549fbb9c.300fb23c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133449 In a message dated 7/19/2005 4:39:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, kjones at telus.net writes: > The thing that really bugs me, which some of you might have bumped > into by now, and have not responded to is this: the whole of the > comments made by Dumbledore as he was drinking the potion. To me, it > sounded like Snape's worst memories, including one remark that was > almost word for word one that Harry heard his mother screaming the night > of the GH attack. Could Dumbledore have been a repository for Snape's > really worst memories, which were replayed by the potion. It just > doesn't sound like anything that Dumbledore would have been sorry for or > done, but it does sound like all of the really bad moments in Snape's > earlier years. Apparently pensives are not all that secure in Hogwarts. > This would also explain Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape. > I actually thought that that might be DD's worst memories replayed. I could see him living with regrets about all he's done and all he's failed to do. Replay Harry's parent's death? Of course. He must have done so for the last 17 years. and not just them. How many people in the order have died? DD, I suspect, blamed himself for each and every one of them. For not spotting 'Sirius the spy', for not insisting the Potters to use him as SK, for [later] not speaking to Sirius with Legilimancy, thus leaving him trapped in Askaban for twelve years. And those are just the bits we've 'seen' on camera. Furthermore, I'll bet the potion magnified every little sin and regret. That might be very well why he didn't bring Snape. What would Snape have seen? The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From redmorning at tds.net Wed Jul 20 13:38:50 2005 From: redmorning at tds.net (redmorning) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:38:50 -0400 Subject: What *is* a Horcrux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DE53EA.4030001@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133450 JKR obviously invented this word. From whence does it come? What does it mean? Hor-- mountain. (1.) One of the mountains of the chain of Seir or Edom, on the confines of Idumea (Num. 20:22-29; 33:37). It was one of the stations of the Israelites in the wilderness (33:37), which they reached in the circuitous route they were obliged to take because the Edomites refused them a passage through their territory. It was during the encampment here that Aaron died (Num. 33:37-41). (See AARON.) The Israelites passed this mountain several times in their wanderings. It bears the modern name of Jebel Harun, and is the highest and most conspicious or *hor* [From Latin 'hora', extant in Hindi, Romance (Spanish, Italian, French), English ('hour'), auxiliaries (Esperanto, Novial).] hour -- a time period of 60 minutes Something else? *** Crux (or Crux Australis) is the scientific name of the Southern Cross constellation. This well-known, cross-shaped Southern Hemisphere constellation is on the Australian flag. The brightest star in Crux is Acrux (alpha Cru), a double-star system at the base of the cross. The second-brightest star is Becrux or Mimosa (Beta Cru); the third-brightest is Gacrux (Gamma Cru). The Jewel Box (also known as Kappa Crucis) is an open cluster of about 100 stars in the Southern Cross. Crux lies on the Milky Way and is surrounded by the constellation Centaurus on three sides. or crux Pronunciation (krks, krks) /n./ /pl./ *cruxes* or *cruces* (krsz) *1. * The basic, central, or critical point or feature: the crux of the matter; the crux of an argument. *2. * A puzzling or apparently insoluble problem. or Probably short for Medieval Latin crux (interpretum), /torment (of interpreters)/, from Latin crux, /cross/.] Just wondering what we're looking for. Jemima From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:00:10 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:00:10 -0000 Subject: Why DD trusts Snape?/ LIfe Debit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > The Unbreakable Vow requires a third party, and so far no one has > hinted that they understand why DD trusts Snape so much. Of course, this alone does not negate the hypothesis. Tonks: This thought did cross my mind. The third person could have been McGonagall, or maybe Fawkes??? But would JKR use this twice?? Maybe there is another reason, more intriguing, that we will find in book 7. If it is an unbreakable vow, than I too think that is was that Snape must protect Harry. What happens when you have to protect both Harry and Draco, if they should attack each other? Also what does it do to a life debit when the person that you have the life debit to dies and you are part of the reason that it happened? (Snape giving the information to LV which resulted in James' death.) Maybe this is important to why Snape must protect Harry. Maybe Snape will not only loss his life, but his soul if he does not give his own life for Harry. Has she ever told us what happens to a life debit if the person you have the debit to dies? Or God forbid, they die and it is because of something that you have done? I can't help thinking that there must be something to the fact that there was a life debit of Snape to James and that it was Snape that gave LV the information that caused James to die. That just has to invoke some sort of special magic (dark perhaps) of it's own. Which leads us to DD and Snape. Did DD save Snape's life? Was there a life debit there too? And what now?? I tend to think that DD and Snape agreed that Snape would do it (kill DD) to save Draco. I don't think Snape wanted to kill DD, and that maybe there is something more to it all because of Snape's debit to James (and maybe now to Harry) and whatever bond that Snape and DD had. I am sure that there must be more to the Snape/Harry/DD thing than we really know or can even guess at. And Snape is now damned either way he turns. It seems that Snape plays an even greater role in the books than we ever thought that he would. I still think that he is on DD's side, but Snape is in a very difficult place now and how can he get out of this between a rock and hard place position? I think there are *severe* (read other worldly, read more ancient magic, dark) consequences to what Snape has done, even thought I don't know quiet what or why. Tonks_op From allthingshp at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:56:26 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:56:26 -0000 Subject: Madame Pince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133452 > Speaking of Snape, somewhere on the web (forget where) someone > observed that Snape's mother, Eileen Prince, would only have to take > one letter out of her name to become Pince...Madam Pince? We know > that Eileen was cross and sullen, not a looker, and we know that > Snape's house in Spinner's End was full of books. Does he live with > his mother? Think about it: Severus Snape, Master Spy, Counsel to > the Wicked, Bringer of Destruction...Mama's boy? Heh heh. > Inkling And what about Pince's crazy behavior in the library (HBP, ch15). JKR makes a point of letting us know that she is near enough to listen to Harry and Hermione discussing the potions book and then freaks out when she sees Harry with it...maybe cause it was hers? She is described as well as "vulturelke" "sunken cheeks" "long hooked nose"...sound like anyone we know!? Also out of curiousity...what is the Hogwarts Gobstones Team that Eileen Prince was captain of? -allthingshp From LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu Wed Jul 20 13:36:15 2005 From: LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu (Laura Herndon) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:36:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape is Innocent! Message-ID: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337517D@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 133453 --- Arcum wrote in a previous post: I came up with this idea before I realised, due to a post on another forum, that Pettigrew has been impersonating Dumbledore all year. This would be a redeemed Peter, naturally. Also, observe his words when drinking the potion: "It's all my fault, my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..." These seem very much like things Peter would say... I'm still trying to reconcile the theories, mind, and figure out if there are any showstoppers. And I'm not sure how likely either is... LEH responds: When I read the words Dumbledore said while drinking the potion it struck me that they could be the words of a truly remorseful Snape. I'm not too keen on the impersonation theories, I believe the words might come from too much messing around with other's memories in pensieves or occulmancy perhaps. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 20 14:05:46 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:05:46 -0000 Subject: And what of Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133454 Geoff wrote: snipping Dumbledore > offers sanctuary but before things can move further, the Death Eaters > arrive and the opportunity passes. > > Draco is alternating between wanting to "be one of the big boys", > doubting whether he can bring himself to kill and also fearing the > consequences. Potioncat: DD is offering sanctuary not only to Draco, but also to Narcissa and Lucius. (Just don't ask me why!!!) DD has known all year that Draco is planning to kill him. He's seen the efforts, but he's allowed Draco lots of room to think and to make his choices. The choices we make are what's important, at least to DD. And now, at the last moment he's offering mercy again to Draco's entire family. Draco even seems on the verge of stating that choice, when time runs out. And at that point, DD sees to it that Draco doesn't have to change his mind. Oddly enough, I think DD's been after Lucius as well. Go back to CoS, chapter 14.Lucius has just come to say that DD is being replaced. They are in Hagrid's hut, Harry and Ron are under the IC. "Dumbledore had not taken his bright blue eyes off Lucius Malfoy's cold gray ones. However,...you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." Harry thinks DD then glances toward the corner. We think DD is talking to Harry and I suppose he is. But he is most certainly talking to Lucius too. I really think having Snape do the job, satisfied several needs of DD and the Order at large, but one of the important ones was to keep Draco's hands clean. Geoff: > As a side issue, there is still the unresolved question of the "good > Slytherin". Nott was noticed in converse with Draco in the book so > does this cancel some of his Brownie points? Potioncat: I remember Theo being mentioned between Blaise and Draco. So it was obvious that Theo was not in the Slytherin compartment nor was he part of the Slug Club. I don't remember if we see Theo and Blaise laughing in another scene or if it's Draco and Blaise. But given how much I thought he'd been set up as a major player for the book back in OoP, I was wondering where the heck he was?! And I wonder if he was the fourth Slytherin in Potions. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 14:11:56 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:11:56 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore's request of the Dursleys Reasonable (Spoilers for HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christopher" wrote: > This is my first post, so I hope it is put together okay. Anyway in > Chapter 3 (Will and Won't) of HBP, after explaining about the blood > protection (Voldermort cannot hurt Harry whilst he is at the > Dursleys'), Dumbledore asks the Dursleys to let Harry return one more > time, so that the protection lasts until he is seventeen. > > This seems reasnoable on the surface, but imo it is not reasonable. > > Here is my reasoning. > > 1: We know the protection applies to Harry, but does it protect the > Dursley's as well. > > 2: If it doesn't protect the Dursley's then Dumbledore is asking them > to risk their lives for a world, which they don't want to be involved > in. > > Voldermort from what i understand, is quite capble of killing or > ordering killing to be done. > > Christopher I think it does protect the Dursley's to an extent. Voldemort/DEs haven't attacked the Dursley's either while Harry was there or while Harry is at school. The closest the Dursley's have come to an attack was the Dementor attack in OoP, but at that time, Harry was on the street, not in the home. The symbolism of "home" and the "safety" of the "home" is apparent in the books. True, Casa Dursley isn't a loving home, but it's still what Dumbledore called "houseroom" for Harry. Harry is only bound to the Dursleys because he is Petunia's blood relative. And it's that blood tie between Petunia, Lily and Harry that protects both Harry and the Dursleys. But...since it's more or less known that Harry doesn't like the Dursley's I don't think they would be a DE target. If the DEs were clever, they would use the Dursleys to get information to use against Harry. Milz From ladyred19732002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:01:44 2005 From: ladyred19732002 at yahoo.com (Constance) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:01:44 -0000 Subject: The Absence of Fawkes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133456 Call it me not wanting DD dead, but the locket laying in his hand after he died made me think. What if, the spell actually hit the locket, and was reflected off of DD. He's actually not dead, but is leading LV, to believe he was killed so he could get closer to Harry? From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Wed Jul 20 14:09:31 2005 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:09:31 -0000 Subject: Madame Pince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133457 allthingshp: > And what about Pince's crazy behavior in the library (HBP, ch15). JKR makes a point of > letting us know that she is near enough to listen to Harry and Hermione discussing the > potions book and then freaks out when she sees Harry with it...maybe cause it was hers? > She is described as well as "vulturelke" "sunken cheeks" "long hooked nose"...sound like anyone we know!? > > Also out of curiousity...what is the Hogwarts Gobstones Team that Eileen Prince was captain of? I just assumed that she saw the book in question and was angry that there was writing all in it. We all know how protective she is of the books in the library... I never considered there to be more to it than that. As for the Gobstones team, this informations comes from the HP Lexicon: "Gobstones is a game involving stones played something like marbles, in which the stones spit disgusting liquid at the opposing player when they lose a point. There are Gobstone clubs at Hogwarts (OP17) and also an International Gobstones League (DP) Many of the kids at Hogwarts have a set of Gobstones and it's played fairly regularly (CS10, PA16, GF20). Harry was tempted to buy a solid gold set in Diagon Alley (PA4). The offices of the Official Gobstones Club are in the Department of Games and Sports on level seven of the Ministry of Magic (OP7)." Genma From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 14:18:03 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:18:03 -0000 Subject: Snape is Innocent! In-Reply-To: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337517D@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Herndon" wrote: > "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, it's my fault, hurt me > instead..." I'm sorry but that doesn't sound *at all* like Peter Pettigrew. But it does sound like DD who has spent a respectable portion of his 150 years leading battles against Dark Wizards, making some *big'* mistakes and ordering his friends and students into horrible and sometimes fatal peril. From xirene101 at cs.com Wed Jul 20 13:37:31 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:37:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unbreakable vows Message-ID: <70331EED.1946F60A.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133459 "wapp13" wrote: >Regarding this theory on an unbreakable vow between Snape and >Dumbledore - then there must be a third person who knows about >Snape's role since the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa had >to have a witness - Bellatrix. Therefore someone must have performed >that task if Snape and Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow. Who is >the witness?? It would seem obvious that it would be an member of the Order. At the end of GOF, DD calls in Sirius and Snape and speaks with them both; could that conversation have had something to do with it? My other thought is that it was/is McGonagall (she *is* DD's Deputy HM, and a fellow Head of a House.) Sue From bree4378 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 12:33:16 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:33:16 -0000 Subject: HBP: First Impressions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133460 I was just wondering what your first impression was with HBP after reading the first few chapters. I must say, I was a bit disappointed in the first chapter, but found that JKR got her groove back in the Spinner's End chapter. I am on the Slug Club chapter, so please don't spoil anything for me in your answer. Sabrina From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jul 20 14:23:31 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:23:31 EDT Subject: Snape's reasons Message-ID: <6d.498e19b1.300fb863@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133461 First, let me say that I loved this book, I think it's her best eve and it is now my favorite. I saw the big climax coming in Chapter Two, when Snape made that vow. I'm still not sure if he's ESE! or just playing a double hand, but what I do see is a setup. Snape was sc...er...set up by Narcissa. Big time. he saw it too. So, why did he fall for it? Why did he take that Vow? Well, I have a theory... This whole book was about love, in all it's forms, from the ships to the snoggin to the love potions to the wedding plans to Voldie's inability to love to Voldie's mom dying for lack of it and Harry's mom dying for it. All about wearing your heart on your sleeve. isn't this a comment we've heard before? During the occulamency lessons? Snape...wasn't JKR's comment who would love Snape? Not who could Snape love, just who could love Snape. The Snape/Lily ship sailed on that. But I suspect that was wrong. Snape has always looked out for Draco, cared for him, protected him. Why? Lucius's friendship? Possibly. But how much more bangy if Snape was looking out for the only child of the love of his life? Narcissa? Who came to him as the only one who WOULD help her...because she knew he still loved her. Sigh...I have to get ready for work, I'll expand on this more tomorrow, I think this is my third post today. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 14:24:30 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:24:30 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133462 Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? From xirene101 at cs.com Wed Jul 20 14:21:19 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:21:19 -0400 Subject: Tarot cards (was Lightning-Struck Tower) Message-ID: <2C29DA67.6E3C64FC.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133463 Continuing with the Tarot motif: The House artifacts as Minor Arcana suits: Hufflepuff: Cups (the cup belonged to Helga Hufflepuff) Gryffindor: Swords (as in Godric's) Slytherin: Pentacles (assoc w/money & metals. 2 artifacts= ring & pendant) Ravenclaw: Wands, by default. Is there a wand out there that once belonged to Rowena Ravenclaw? ~Sue From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 14:28:14 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:28:14 -0000 Subject: With whom did Snape invent his curses? (was: When did Snape invent his curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133464 "grega126" wrote: > The thing that's been bugging me about this whole him inventing these > curses thing, is how did James learn a non-verbal spell that Snape had > created. Remus says that the curse was quite the fad when they were in > school. So if Snape inveneted it, someone else would've had to have > also created it independent of Snape, OR Snape didn't actually invent > them, but he just wrote them down in his book. Hannah: Well, we are assuming that Snape acted alone when he invented his curses and Potions improvements. I wonder if he did. That's not to say they weren't largely his inventions, but Snape craves glory and attention - I bet he bragged about them to his friends. This may have been the gang of Slytherins, or perhaps it was other members of the Slug-Club. Like Lily Evans. Slughorn describes Lily as a creative and instinctive Potions maker, whereas Snape strikes as more of a Hermione type 'if it's not in the book...!' Perhaps the spells were Snape's, the Potions improvements Lily's, and the two shared their discoveries with each other. Maybe Lily let slip some of Snape's curses to her Gryffindor friends, hence his very angry reaction in the pensieve scene. She was defending him from curses that Potter would never have known to use if she hadn't blabbed them. Presumably they made up for a while at least, in which time Snape made his annotated book, including Lily's new Potions discoveries as well as his own. Of course, it's only a possibility, but I really like this theory. It all ties in with the 'something huge' about Lily, and what we've been told about her being brilliant at Charms and Potions. Hannah From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 14:29:49 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:29:49 -0700 Subject: responses to several posts Snape/ships/LOTR/Hogwarts Message-ID: <002d01c58d37$7cfc62c0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133465 Ok, this is my first attempt at combining many responses. Forgive me if i don't handle this well. But here goes. Heather now: (Discussing LOTR parallels) One I noticed was the phoenix's lament... a magical sad song that seems to fill them with the utter despair of the loss of Dumbledore. This is very much like the elves' lament for Gandalf in Lothlorien. And I already mentioned that DD's sacrifice was a lot like Gandalf's, and all the 'white' imagery around it reminiscent of Gandalf's return. Heck, the Dementors are a lot like the Black Riders. The comparisons are really too numerous to enumerate all of them... Heather the buzzard Sherry: The other day I read part of an interview with JKR, in which it was said that she doesn't like fantasy and didn't even consider the first book to be fantasy till she heard it described as such. She said she never finished LOTR. That shot down my attempts at comparing the two series and my hopes that Dumbledore would do a Gandalf routine. Sigh. Jo Could Lupin include Snape as one of those in which Lily saw the "good?" Is it possible that Snape hates Harry so much because he is James's son instead of his own? Just wondering --- Sherry: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Snape refer to Lily as a mudblood at the end, during the fight with Harry? Even in trying to hold the disguise of loyal Death eater, would this be necessary, if he had truly loved Lily? The only time we see them interact, in the infamous pensive scene; he is not very nice and calls her that word. I'm not convinced of any warm feelings for Lily on his part. Jacquelyn Sirius, on the other hand, did not die with the finality that DD did. In DD's death, there is closure. Harry feels the lose and understands the weight that death holds over a person, and I personally don't believe that Harry really felt that with Sirius. Maybe I am just too much of a Sirius Black fan to let him die, but I cannot find as much actual proof (like the ending of the spell on Harry, the changing of offices, DD's portrait on the wall, etc.) in the death of Sirius. Jacquelyn Sherry: Harry's inheriting Kreacher convinced me more than anything else that Sirius is indeed dead. Sniffle. I had held out hope till then, but if Sirius was alive, in hiding or something like that, could Harry become Kreacher's master? AF here: Oh dear. IMO, it appears that a major point has been missed, if not an entire promontory, While I rejoice for any new found affection for Snape, there is no cause to gloat over "revelations" made via the horrific acts in HBP. The thinking that Snape's evil nature has finally been proved seems to carry the day on the sites by and devoted to young readers, but for those of us a bit longer in the tooth, I believe JKR's multi-faceted characterizations show us that this is a very complex, adult series. Snape's acts -rather than illustrating his amorality - show instead his nobility, loyalty and bravery. I'll eat my words - and change my opinion of this fantastic man - only after reading book 7! AF Sherry: I haven't read any response to my basic gut instinct reaction against noble wonderful Severus following through on the diabolic plan concocted by him and Dumbledore. That is the matter of the destruction of the soul if one commits murder. Would great, wise, compassionate, kindly, loving--and any other word to imply amazingly good and honorable character--Dumbledore actually have created a plan that forces Severus to destroy more of his soul? The soul was a major part of HBP, and we are told in detail about the terrible damage to it caused by killing another person. Would the murder of the one person who has loved and trusted you be less destructive? I truly wanted to believe in good Snape, because of Dumbledore's belief. But from chapter two, when the mention was made of how it was Snape's info that led to the murder of Emiline Vance, i couldn't help feeling worried. When he murdered Dumbledore, I was completely convinced he was evil all along. Not because of him, but because of my reading of Dumbledore's nature. Also, I am 47, so I don't know what that says about me in regard to your thoughts that older readers could see more of the complexity in Snape. I did, till this book. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if JKR didn't expect myriads of people to believe Snape couldn't be ESE after this book, that Dumbledore couldn't be wrong. In this case, i wouldn't be surprised if she made the obvious surface explanation the real explanation. A few general comments in response to too many to attribute: About ships. I found the ships believable, but rushed, in a way. My feeling was that JKR may have felt she needed to get them out of the way because there was so much else that was important in the book, and the ships needed to be resolved, so the reader could focus on the important stuff. It was the same with Sirius' name being cleared and his estate going to Harry. We had debated several times about all that, and in a few words, she settles it. Ginny's comments to Ron, when he got mad at seeing her with Dean seemed like typical brother and sister interaction. I'm considerably older than my younger siblings, but the youngest brother and sister would have acted just like that. I was sure it was Ginny's digs that sent Ron into snogging with Lavender. My own brother would have reacted in a very similar way. We also see Ron's actual behavior after getting hit by a love potion, and none of the other reactions fit that. Harry had enough clear thought to worry about how Ron would feel about his feelings for Ginny. About Hogwarts and missing it. I, too, felt like I missed a lot of the Hogwarts atmosphere in this book. Several times, my friend and i commented that we'd like to see more of the DADA classes, that we wished the DA had continued, that we missed more interaction with the other teachers, especially McGonigal. Yet, in thinking about the future, with Harry not returning to Hogwarts, now it seems natural that we would have been being led away from the school in this book, that our focus would be put on other things. Otherwise, maybe the abrupt change would be too drastic. My hope is that we will still see other characters such as Lupin, Tonks, McGonigal, Hagrid, and Moody, even though Harry and company won't be at school. And on that note, I really missed seeing more of Neville and Luna, especially after OOTP, but perhaps they are settling into more of a background role, because they won't play important parts in the end game. Does anyone think Ginny will actually let Harry go off with Ron and Hermione and not go along too, or at least be greatly involved? If the H/G ship continues to sail, I expect her to have a fit, insist on going along, or to play some kind of vital role, at least. I think book 7 could end up kind of dull, if we get only the trio. Sherry From jenni at strawberry.jamm.com Wed Jul 20 14:30:19 2005 From: jenni at strawberry.jamm.com (Jenni A. M. Merrifield) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:30:19 -0000 Subject: Azkhaban and dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133466 [Homero Luna wrote] > How/why are Wizards even being sent to Azkhaban w/o Dementors to guard > the prison? The wizards have their wands taken away, and therefore > can't "Alohomora" their way out so easily, but there's still the issue > of emotion-driven magic. > > Surely a very-ticked Lucius could bust down a wall or two without his > wand. Well, except for Lucius and the rest of the DE, it also sounded like most of the inmates weren't particularly powerful wizards. Still, my assumption (which I have no cannon to back up) was that the Dementors were replaced with something else such as magical wards that are proof against casting magic - something akin to, but grander than, the wards on Hogwarts that are proof against apparating. Possiblly they've also instituted wizarding guards who help keep the inmates in line. Jenni A.M. Merrifield From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:31:11 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:31:11 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the > most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? I'm never going to be able to read through all the posts to bring myself up-to-date before I burst! With apologies for any repetition, I offer a few responses and a few thoughts of my own. Mira said on Tuesday: I had no particular sympathy for Snape before the HBP, only a little pity for his circumstances. Now, ironically, I trust him completely. Lorel: I hadn't thought of it this way, but it's true for me as well. I now look back on the previous books with a completely different perspective, especially in terms of the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore, and actually grieve for Snape. If he could follow this terrible command of his savior? mentor? it shows incredible power, bravery, and moral courage. At least, I fervently hope this is the way it happened, and can't wait to see how it plays out in the end. On a very tangentially related note, we haven't yet learned how Snape is able to "stopper death," but perhaps if Harry can bring himself to look at his potions book again, he may be able to use it to great advantage... Rowena, did you notice the parallel lines at the beginning and end from Dumbledore to Harry? In Chapter 4 (page 58, US ed.), Dumbledore tells Harry that it is unlikely that anyone would try to attack Harry on the way to Slughorn's house because "You are with me," or under DD's protection. Then at the end of Chapter 26 (page 578), the line is (and their roles are) reversed as DD says, "I am not worried, Harry... I am with you." Wow. Lorel "After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." (*sob*) From imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:27:58 2005 From: imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com (imthruthelookinglass) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:27:58 -0000 Subject: A Very Cocky Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133468 The Dumbledore we are used to is/was/is mostly a humble Wizard. It struck me funny how often he complimented himself and his abilities in this edition. At first I thought: possible Imperius Curse or Polyjuice Potion. I quickly abandoned those possiblilies but then why so cocky? Was it to assure Harry that he knew what he was doing in order to make Harry trust him in the event that Harry was to feed him glowing green poison? I was under the assumption that Harry already trusted him. It could also have been stress and the possiblility that the curse he already endured from the Horcrux ring was killing him slowly. Perhaps he had no more time for doubt and questions. His demeanor was odd to me, so when Snape killed him I went back to my earlier theory on a possible imposter. I was looking for any way out. NOT DUMBLEDORE!!!! This post won't ponder future Potter but it does question Dumbledore's actions and demeanor throughout the book, and adds to the mystery of why he had to die in the way that he did. To those of us who despise Snape it was a real stab in the back. (When taking it at face value and not reading further into it as an order issued by DD - which I'm personally on the line about.) If nothing else, Dumbledore's behavior was certainly a sign that something was not right with him. I may be another clue to his knoweledge of his demise. imthruthelookinglass From bhauersperger at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:34:47 2005 From: bhauersperger at hotmail.com (snufflesnbeakie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:34:47 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the > most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? I so agree. Every time that I recall that line, or think about Dumbledore appearing to plead for his life (which I don't believe that Ablus Dumbledore ever would!) still gives me a pit in my stomach. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 14:39:56 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:39:56 -0000 Subject: What *is* a Horcrux: Possible 'Lily's Eyes' connection In-Reply-To: <42DE53EA.4030001@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, redmorning wrote: > JKR obviously invented this word. From whence does it come? What does > it mean? > > Hor-- > > mountain. (1.) One of the mountains of the chain of Seir or Edom, on the > confines of Idumea (Num. 20:22-29; 33:37). It was one of the stations of > the Israelites in the wilderness (33:37), which they reached in the > circuitous route they were obliged to take because the Edomites refused > them a passage through their territory. It was during the encampment > here that Aaron died (Num. 33:37-41). (See AARON.) The Israelites passed > this mountain several times in their wanderings. It bears the modern > name of Jebel Harun, and is the highest and most conspicious > > or > > *hor* [From Latin 'hora', extant in Hindi, Romance (Spanish, Italian, > French), English ('hour'), auxiliaries (Esperanto, Novial).] hour -- a > time period of 60 minutes > > Something else? > > *** > > Crux (or Crux Australis) is the scientific name of the Southern Cross > constellation. This well-known, cross-shaped Southern Hemisphere > constellation is on the Australian flag. The brightest star in Crux is > Acrux (alpha Cru), a double-star system at the base of the cross. The > second-brightest star is Becrux or Mimosa (Beta Cru); the > third-brightest is Gacrux (Gamma Cru). The Jewel Box (also known as > Kappa Crucis) is an open cluster of about 100 stars in the Southern > Cross. Crux lies on the Milky Way and is surrounded by the constellation > Centaurus on three sides. > > or > crux Pronunciation (krks, krks) > /n./ /pl./ *crux?es* or *cru?ces* (krsz) > *1. * The basic, central, or critical point or feature: the crux of the > matter; the crux of an argument. > *2. * A puzzling or apparently insoluble problem. > > or > > Probably short for Medieval Latin crux (interpretum), /torment (of > interpreters)/, from Latin crux, /cross/.] > > Just wondering what we're looking for. > > Jemima I think the "Hor" is a reference to Horus the Egyptian god of Light (similar to Apollo) or sun god. If I recall my mythology correctly the root of the word "hour" is derived from Horus because he controlled the sun (or the day). This link has more about him http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm In a nutshell, Horus had different "manifestations". One of them, Harmakhis the "Horus in the Horizon", was associated with eternal life/resurrection. Now let's look at the second part of the horcrux--"Crux" or cross, which is the Christian symbol of the death and resurrection/eternal life of Jesus. So, if my Horus connection is trustworthy, Rowling combined two words that in mythology represented resurrection and eternal life to describe something that gave Voldemort "eternal life" by storing bits of his soul. Also, the Horus connection would explain the constant references to Lily's eyes. There is a symbol called the "Eye of Horus". The Eye of Horus was supposed to convey healing and protective powers. So "Lily's eyes" can be the physical manifestation of Lily's protection over Harry. And since Lily was good at charms, she could have created a charm that gave Harry her eyes (maybe not physically, but symbolically speaking) as part of that protection. Milz From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 14:56:32 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:56:32 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <731ca75a050719233044e04cc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133471 Interesting to note (if it hasn't been already) that Gandalf was thought to have been killed off in LOTR but was reborn. Perhaps we will see the same thing with Dumbledore? Personally, I don't think so, but worth making the point! Brothergib From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 15:00:29 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:00:29 -0000 Subject: A 22nd reason why Snape is a Good Guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133472 Hannah: Nice list, Krista! I'm convinced that Snape acted on DD's orders. I think that's what Hagrid overheard them arguing about in the wood. DD knew what was coming. I have to add another reason though, that I think strengthens the case: 22. Where was Fawkes in all this? When LV AK's DD in the DOM, Fawkes appears from nowhere and takes the spell. So why not when Snape does the same? Why not before then, when DD was clearly weak and in trouble? The bird is a lot closer to the action than in the DOM. The only reason Fawkes does not appear, is because DD wants to die, for whatever reason. Snape acts on DD's orders, and Fawkes does not intervene. Hannah From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:08:39 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:08:39 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <191.437f9811.300e8ab1@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, adesahafford at w... wrote: > Or did JKR make a mistake? Snape claims, at the end, to be the > Prince, and yet... > > "Ron fell asleep almost immediately, but Harry delved into his > trunk and pulled out his copy of Advanced Potion-Making before > getting into bed. There he turned its pages, searching, until he > finally found, at the front of the book, the date that it had > been published. It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, > not his father's friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago...." > (HBP, US, Ch. 16, p. 337) > > Neither, I might add, was Snape. So, are we to assume as Harry did > that the Prince must have been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based > on the *publication* date? Snape must have had a second-hand book > then, right? Certainly possible, given he was at the school on a > need-based scholarship. > > Or is this a mistake on JKR's part? You know her and "maths," as > she says. I don't think it's in any way a mistake. This is probably the most thoroughly edited, fact-checked, and proofread book in modern publishing history. ;-) The 50 year old publication is IMO one of the red herrings that JKR loves to throw at us. jujube From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:13:06 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:13:06 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <46.6d98b101.300e8f34@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133474 Brief Chronicles wrote: > I also would like to say that I felt her lack of proper > foreshadowing regarding the identity of the HBP was to the point of > being unfair to the reader. Really? I suspected Snape as soon as I saw the HBP was involved in Harry's life via a Potions textbook, but I wasn't sure that JKR would have him figure in 2 subplots in the book. The other area where a big clue is dropped is when Harry hexes Draco with the curse that cuts him up and Snape doesn't ask Harry what spell he cast--he immediately recognizes it and fixes Draco up. He recognizes it b/c he invented it. Also the way he reads Harry's mind is IMO very pointed toward the textbook. jujube From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 15:15:57 2005 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (melhersheybar) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:15:57 -0000 Subject: Has Voldy "used" a Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133475 Here is a question I have been wondering about as I have read discussions about the Horcrux's creation and timeline. Do you think it is possible that VD has already "used" one of his Horcruxes? I mean, when the AK rebounded in the Potter House, something kept him alive - that something was the fact that he had gone farther than anyone else to make himself immortal by creating the Horcruxes. So it seems to me that in order to be the half life he was for so many years, he would have had to get to one of his Horcruxes to release that piece of his soul to keep himself alive. So, what was that piece? Where was it? Did he create a replacement one later or are there really only five left? Mhersheybar From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 15:23:27 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:23:27 -0000 Subject: HBP Theories; the potion in the cave In-Reply-To: <15c.549fbb9c.300fb23c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133476 The Other Cheryl wisely said, " I actually thought that that might be DD's worst memories replayed. I could see him living with regrets about all he's done and all he's failed to do. Replay Harry's parent's death? Of course. He must have done so for the last 17 years. and not just them. How many people in the order have died? DD, I suspect, blamed himself for each and every one of them. For not spotting 'Sirius the spy', for not insisting the Potters to use him as SK, for [later] not speaking to Sirius with Legilimancy, thus leaving him trapped in Askaban for twelve years. And those are just the bits we've 'seen' on camera. Furthermore, I'll bet the potion magnified every little sin and regret. That might be very well why he didn't bring Snape. What would Snape have seen?" Excellent, and this thought ties in perfectly with Dumbledore's remark to Harry that being so clever leads to greater mistakes as well. To be great always carries with it the potential to fail greatly, and to carry heavier burdens. How would you think Abraham Lincoln felt after Chancellorsville, for instance? Most people don't want and can't handle that kind of responsibility. A lot of people think nobody should take that kind of responsibility, but that's another issue for another place. An interesting thought that goes with this is that LV knew that anyone who achieved the island would be carrying that kind of burden; the kind of person most vulnerable to the potion. LV doesn't carry the burden of regret; he's a psychopath who doesn't regret anything. Is this a potion, then, that targets the great and the caring? As far as not bringing Snape goes, DD didn't know what was in store in that cave. Harry is the Chosen One, Harry is DD's prot?g?; it's Harry's burden to carry. Jim Ferer From viqui2 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:12:52 2005 From: viqui2 at aol.com (viqui2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:12:52 EDT Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse Message-ID: <194.4322264e.300fc3f4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133477 Hi, this is my first post so bear with me! Perhaps Quirrell taught DADA at HW for a year prior to travelling. He then met with LV by chance whilst abroad and was given the choice: join up or die. Should he have refused to cooperate with LV, he would have been killed, thus unable to return. However, as he agreed to help LV, LV allowed him to live, and thus LV took the post teaching DADA by default (via the use of Quirrell). Hence the personality change and paranoia exhibited by Quirrell. Of course, it was only when Quirrell fouled up that LV took full use of Quirrell as a vehicle, however they were in communiation long before this thereby Quirrell being the origional inside agent. Viqui From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:25:44 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:25:44 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I am proud to report that ESE!Lupin theory is alive and > kicking. Lupin as liason to the werewolves is confirmed, > he considers them his equals, he provides some more > information on dementors, and he tells Tonks he's too > dangerous for her. I'm a happy woman today. But I think Lupin tells Tonks he is too dangerous for her because he's a werewolf and could possibly hurt her. It's his love for her that causes him to be so protective of her. #6's biggest theme is that of sacrifice for the ones you love. Lupin's relunctance to accept Tonks' love was his denying his heart's desire for her. I also don't understand how his working for the Order by running with werewolves proves he is evil. jujube, confused From roseviolet66 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:36:17 2005 From: roseviolet66 at yahoo.com (roseviolet66) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:36:17 -0000 Subject: 21 Reasons Why Snape is a Good Guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > Well, I think everyone should keep in mind that Harry physically > forced Dumbledore to drink about six goblets of what was pretty > obviously poison. Actually held him down and poured it down his > throat. But he had a reason for it. The only reason it doesn't > seem wrong to us is because we know the reason. I don't think it's > a stretch at all to think that Snape had a good reason for what he > did. Especially since the reason is given in the book (the > Unbreakable Vow). I'm convinced that Dumbledore made Snape promise > to kill him if it came to that. Believing in evil!Snape requires > that we also believe in stupid!Dumbledore, and I just can't buy > that. > > snipsnapsnurr While the possibility certainly exists, I'm not convinced at this point that such a promise actually existed between Dumbledore and Snape. I'm not a Snape fan by any stretch of the imagination, and I am still in high dudgeon over Dumbledore's death and Snape's role in it, but I just can't credit that Snape has been a loyal DE all this time and that Dumbledore could be so silly as to fall for an act to the detriment of the entire war effort. It is Snape's actions during his confrontation with Harry in Chapter 28 that gave me food for the thought that he may still be working for the light. Yes, Snape saves Harry from the Cruciatus in that chapter, but more significantly, he stops Harry from casting the very same curse. As Harry apparently attempts to cast the Cruciatus curse on Snape, Snape blocks Harry before he can even get out the full incantation and shouts "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!" Why does Snape stop Harry from even incanting this curse? We know from OotP that to successfully cast an Unforgivable, "you have to mean it...want to cause pain...enjoy it." We also know that Harry was unable to successfully cast the Cruciatus on Bellatrix, despite the fact that he felt "hatred as he'd never felt before" and wanted retribution for Sirius's death at Bellatrix's hands. In fact, both times that Harry has been overwhlemed by grief and confronted by those who have killed his loved ones--Bellatrix in OotP and Snape in HBP--he has tried to cast the Cruciatus. And it's a "habit" he needs to break. If love is truly Harry's secret weapon against Voldemort and the "power he knows not," then wouldn't that power be corrupted by successfully casting a dark spell which requires such negative and hateful emotions as fuel? How can Harry successfully defeat Voldemort with love if he can be so easily tempted to give in to his grief and use dark magic? It's one thing to feel such dark emotions (quite understandably in this case) and another entirely to act on them. A distinction Snape seems to recognize in censuring Harry from further attempts to cast an Unforgivables. If Snape has truly turned traitor to the light, then why the emphasis on preventing Harry from even incanting a dark spell and giving in to the lure of dark magic? At this point, I lean toward thinking that Snape remains for the light. Snape has always been a rather complex character in the series, seemingly straddling that fine line between good and evil, and the most obvious candidate for the "guy that everyone loves to hate." For Snape to be revealed as completely evil at this stage would be a bit cliche. Not to mention rather disappointing. ~Roseviolet From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:34:25 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:34:25 -0000 Subject: HBP Theories In-Reply-To: <42DD64DE.4060504@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > The thing that really bugs me, which some of you might have > bumped into by now, and have not responded to is this: the whole > of the comments made by Dumbledore as he was drinking the potion. > To me, it sounded like Snape's worst memories, including one > remark that was almost word for word one that Harry heard his > mother screaming the night of the GH attack. Could Dumbledore have > been a repository for Snape's really worst memories, which were > replayed by the potion. It just doesn't sound like anything that > Dumbledore would have been sorry for or done, but it does sound like > all of the really bad moments in Snape's earlier years. Apparently > pensives are not all that secure in Hogwarts. > This would also explain Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape. I'm not sure why the potion in the cave would have anything to do with Snape, or why Dumbledore, upon drinking it, would channel any of Snape's memories? I think that either Dumbledore drank the Draught of Living Death (which we are first introduced to in SS/PS) or, more interestingly to me, now that we know that that Horcrux is a hoax, he drank a Pensieve-like thing of the last memories of the people Voldemort killed (something Regulus Black put in the cistern in order to torment Voldemort). jujube From carodave92 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 13:48:08 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:48:08 -0000 Subject: Ollivander's Disappearance and Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133481 I think it must be significant that Neville was one of Ollivander's last customers prior to his disappearance, but can not for the life of me figure out what it means. JKR would not have included that information unless it was significant, after all, no additional information was given to us about other disappearances (Florean Fortescue) or deaths (Amelia Bones, Emmeline Vance). 1. This would have been Neville's first purchase at Ollivander's, since he was previously using his dad's old wand, and immediately after he bought his own wand, the wandmaker disappeared. 2. Although there are other wandmakers, Ollivander is considered an authority; he was the one called in to weigh the wands for the TriWizard Tournament. 3. Ollivander has been in business for a long time, having sold Lily's wand to her way back when, and I assume that he also sold Tom Riddle his wand...which means that he stayed in business with no trouble throughout LV's first reign of terror. 4. LV had over a year (since his duel with Harry in the graveyard in GoF) to 'ask' Ollivander to create a new wand for him to duel with Harry; it must be something that happened recently (ie, Neville's purchase) that forced LV and/or DEs to take away Ollivander, or forced him to go into hiding. If anyone has a theory about this, I would love to hear it. Carodave From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 15:36:18 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:36:18 -0000 Subject: Dementors- shouldn't there be a little more panic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133482 Right. So the Dementors are breeding, hence the strange mist all over the place (and fug- yes people, that is a real word :)) They are loose and descending on both magical and muggle worlds in their numbers. Wouldn't you have thought there would have been more than a mere mention of this in the book? More wide-spread panic, despair and many many more cases of muggles and wizards missing a soul? On reading the first chapter with Fudge explaining this to the PM, I was expecting more use of the Dementors. After all, JKR has been very deliberate in pointing out where the Dementors are and what they are doing...not to mention how frightening and evil they are. A tad lame if their sole use is to depict how desperate the situation is- no? Ah- light bulb moment- perhaps with all these patronuses flying about the place communicating with the OoTP the Dementors are unwittingly beign defeated? (clutches at straws) Really I just wanted to post on something other than Snape! jozoed From CariadMel at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:31:55 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (Annette) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:31:55 -0000 Subject: COWARD Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133483 Forgive me if this has been discussed , I have looked at the last few posts and there's no mention of it. Snape became incensed at the use of the word 'coward' directed at him. Not only because the son of James was saying it, but because it was plainly the most hurtful thing he (Harry) could have said. I have always thought Snape was a double-crossing, spiteful malcontent. Until now. Now I believe that he has done the most brave and wonderful act in the series. He is Harry's protector, I don't know how but I think he has been all along. He has invested too much time and effort into disliking Harry yet he knows he has to help him fulfil his destiny. It doesn't matter how many Unbreakable Vows he makes with the Death Eaters and their ilk, his one true mission is the redemption of his soul thorough Harry, the son he should have had. Can't wait for Book 7. Bring it on !!! Annette From trekkie at stofanet.dk Wed Jul 20 15:42:15 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:42:15 +0200 Subject: A Polyjuice question - not REALLY related to HBP Message-ID: <009c01c58d41$9a9517a0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133484 I started a theory, right after reading HBP for the first time, that the Snape we see is really a polyjuiced Bellatrix. For several reasons I've abandoned that theory now, but it still makes me wonder about one thing regarding Polyjuice: You can make it with hair, right? That's what the Trio does in CoS. So WHY did Crouch Jr. have to keep Moody alive? Why not simply shave the man bald and use one hair at a time? I mean you have THOUSANDS of hairs... so there's really no need to keep someone alive just to have ingredients for Polyjuice, is there? And I'm still kindo f bothered about that whole wat of Polyjuice that went missing in HBP. Sure Draco used some of it to disguise Crabbe and Goyle... but... Well.... I just wonldn't be surprised if there were more polyjuiced persons in that story. Almost everyone was acting so OOC that it in some places almost made me cringe... ~Trekkie .:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Alan Rickman is a man who gets hotter as he ages. By the time it's his time to go, they won't have to cremate him. He will spontaneously combust! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 15:46:47 2005 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:46:47 -0000 Subject: Ollivander's Disappearance and Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133485 [snip] > > > 4. LV had over a year (since his duel with Harry in the graveyard in > GoF) to 'ask' Ollivander to create a new wand for him to duel with > Harry; it must be something that happened recently (ie, Neville's > purchase) that forced LV and/or DEs to take away Ollivander, or > forced him to go into hiding. > Stephanie here: Since a wand chooses his owner...I don't think it's a matter of Voldemort looking for Ollivander to create a new wand, but to get Ollivander to reveal how Volde can get around the "no brother wands can duel" thing. I too think it's odd that Neville was one of the last to buy a wand from Ollivander, but I can't figure out why...might just be a Mak Evans coincident. Stephanie > From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 15:52:29 2005 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:52:29 -0000 Subject: Tarot cards (was Lightning-Struck Tower) In-Reply-To: <2C29DA67.6E3C64FC.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133486 Interesting theory about the Ravenclaw artifact being a wand, based on the tarot. And, one of the experts of the Wizarding World on wands, Mr Ollivander, is missing. Maybe that wand on display in the front of his shop once belonged to Ravenclaw herself, and not VM as many have speculated. If that's so, then it's possible the DE's captured him to get access to that wand, or it's possible that he hid to keep it from anyone gaining access. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xirene101 at c... wrote: > Continuing with the Tarot motif: > > The House artifacts as Minor Arcana suits: > > Hufflepuff: Cups (the cup belonged to Helga Hufflepuff) > Gryffindor: Swords (as in Godric's) > Slytherin: Pentacles (assoc w/money & metals. 2 artifacts= ring & pendant) > Ravenclaw: Wands, by default. Is there a wand out there that once belonged to Rowena Ravenclaw? > ~Sue From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 15:55:45 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:55:45 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorelei3dg" wrote: > Rowena, did you notice the parallel lines at the beginning and end > from Dumbledore to Harry? In Chapter 4 (page 58, US ed.), Dumbledore > tells Harry that it is unlikely that anyone would try to attack Harry > on the way to Slughorn's house because "You are with me," or under > DD's protection. Then at the end of Chapter 26 (page 578), the line > is (and their roles are) reversed as DD says, "I am not worried, > Harry... I am with you." Wow. Yes I did. Like I said; what a beautiful thing for DD to say to Harry. And the all the proof we need that Harry has indeed finished his apprenticeship and is now ready to fulfil his destiny - whith a little help from his friends! ;) From ar_hp03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:01:14 2005 From: ar_hp03 at yahoo.com (ar_hp03) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:01:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the poison(?) potion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133488 I was just discussing Dumbledore's reaction after drinking the potion at the cave with a friend and it suddenly struck me that his reactions seem to be something similar to what we see when people face dementors, ie., being forced to re-live their worst memories. In the book it appears that Dumbledore is somehow being forced to re-live his worst memories. He speaks about being responsible for something and begs someone not to kill the others(sorry, don't have the book handy). IMHO, this closly resembles the way other wizards including Harry react to demetor attacks. If the potion was merely poisonous then the reactions would have been closer to the way Ron was described at Slughorn's office after driking the mead. What does everyone else think ? AR, who knows for sure that the potion was a dark potion and was not poison. From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 16:04:23 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:04:23 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snufflesnbeakie" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" > wrote: > > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the > > most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? > > I so agree. Every time that I recall that line, or think about > Dumbledore appearing to plead for his life (which I don't believe that > Ablus Dumbledore ever would!) still gives me a pit in my stomach. I don't believe he was pleading for his life either - for one thing it would have been rather pointless given the number of D-Es present! - but the thought of Albus Dumbledore defenseless and at the mercy of his enemies does curdle the stomache! From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:14:04 2005 From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:14:04 -0000 Subject: killing = ripping soul? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133490 Ellen wrote: > I thought the canon stated that if you wanted to split > your soul, killing -- if not entirely necessary -- was at least > desirable to assist the attempt. I didn't remember reading that soul- > splitting was an unavoidable result, whether you wanted it or not. Answering my own question... Just needed to look back a few posts: "But how do you do it?" "By an act of evil - the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use damage to his advantage: he would encase the torn portion -" Ellen From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:25:02 2005 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:25:02 -0000 Subject: DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133491 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > > > > Key words in that phrase are that he took a year OFF. > > > > Which means, he taught one year, took a year off (and was filled by > > someone else), then came back after being possessed. > > > > So he taught two years, just not consecutively. I just looked at the text from HBP dealing with this (pp. 446) and here is the exact phrasing: "You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." In my mind, even if Q did teach a year, take a year off, then teach another year, they still kept him "longer than a year." They "kept him" for two years. Jake From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 14:35:20 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:35:20 -0000 Subject: FILK: Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133492 I'll not be posting filks I may write in the next few weeks due to list volume, but I thought this one was one I really wanted to share. At the bottom of this is a URL. CMC is updating the filks page as he received new filks. If you're a filk-lover, check it out. Dedicated to CV. "Dumbledore." to the tune of "Danny Boy". Oh, Dumbledore, the phoenix song is sounding. >From castle wall, down to the forest wide. For you have gone on to your next adventure, You go, you go on to the other side. But you'll be back, a portrait in your office, Or memories, in penseives bright will glow. Tis as you said- our loved ones never leave us. Oh, Dumbledore, Oh, Dumbledore, we love you so. So now you hear your staff and students crying, And all your friends are sad as they can be. Your tomb so white, the flames and one bird flying. We see it fly, and know your soul is free. And we shall heed your caring words so lovely: I'll never leave, not gone shall truly be. I'll still be there, within your heart to guide thee, As long as someone there is loyal still to me. As long as someone there is loyal still to me. Ginger, adieu Check out the new filks at: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/prince.htm From ruth28 at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 20 16:35:22 2005 From: ruth28 at bellsouth.net (ruth38732) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:35:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as a Living Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133493 I agree with your whole theory! It's been driving me crazy that no one else has come up with that. Ruth From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:42:28 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:42:28 -0000 Subject: ESE Snape and Snogging? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133494 Sorry if this has been noticed, but... I'm a ESE Snape fan and am rereading. When Hagrid is talking about the argument he overheard between Snape and DD he says: "Well_ I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore-" Notice the word ANYMORE. DD was asking Snape to do something Snape had done before. Snape had never offed DD before. They must have been talking about Snape's spywork or something. DD wanted Snape to make investigations in the Slytherin House to see where the cursed necklace and poisened mead may have come from. Sorry fans, but IMHO Snape is rotten to the core. On a lighter note. I realize I'm grossly out of touch. But where and when did the term "snogging" come into fashion. I heard it used on the Today show this morning. It's not very romantic is it??? Bonnie From exslytherin at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:43:43 2005 From: exslytherin at hotmail.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:43:43 -0000 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133495 > > You're forgetting Riddle's diary, it was a Horcrux too, one that has > already been destroyed. > > Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. It means > that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. > > Alina. Doh....yep! Your right. *blushes* Four houses, diary, ring and LV himself doeas equal seven. From juli17 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 16:40:48 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:40:48 EDT Subject: HBP Theories: Snape's Parents Message-ID: <1ed.402bbc05.300fd890@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133496 On Jul 19, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > If any of you have lasted through this, what really bothers me is > Snape's family. His mother was a witch and his father a muggle. How > do > we reconcile this with Snape's pride in his family. The > similarities between > Harry, Voldemort and Snape have been increasing throughout the books. > Julie: I'm sure those similarities will be explored in Book 7. Snape's parents are particularly interesting. From the pensieve scene with his mother cowering and father threatening, I expected Snape's father to be the wizard, and his mother the muggle. Instead it's the other way around. Which begs the question, just how did Snape come to Hogwarts knowing so many curses? If Dad the muggle ran all over Mom the cowering witch, it seems like Snape might have grown up in a "Bewitched" situation, i.e. "You will not practice witchcraft in this house, Samantha--er, Eileen!" roars Tobias. Again, how did Snape know all that Dark magic when he came to Hogwarts? Did his cowering mother teach him so he could protect himself, or did he secretly learn it behind his father's back in defiance? Katherine wrote: I usually dislike the "Luke, I am your father" theories that swirl around the HP series, but after this book I've increasingly wondered if Tom Riddle Jr. and Eileen Prince didn't have some type of ongoing relationship. I'm currently of the mind that perhaps it is possible that Snape knew Voldemort when Snape was a young boy. I can't think of any other reason, other than a red-herring for HBP that JKR would have pointed out the time period in which Eileen Prince attended Hogwarts. She was obviously there at the same time as TRJr. Perhaps she was either used by him to further his own aims, or was one of his early friends. Julie: I've always assumed there must be some connection between Snape and Voldemort that would explain Voldemort's apparent leniency when it comes to Snape. If I recall correctly, Tom attended Hogwarts 50 years previous to COS, and the Half Blood Prince's potion book is around 50 years old in HBP. If the numbers quoted were rounded, as most people tend to do, then they are close enough, give or take a few years, that Tom and Eileen surely crossed paths at Hogwarts. Probably more than crossed paths. Maybe Tom taught her all those curses, and she in turn taught them to young Severus. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 16:49:46 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:49:46 -0000 Subject: A Polyjuice question - not REALLY related to HBP In-Reply-To: <009c01c58d41$9a9517a0$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "TrekkieGrrrl" wrote: > I started a theory, right after reading HBP for the first time, that the Snape we see is really a polyjuiced Bellatrix. For several reasons I've abandoned that theory now, but it still makes me wonder about one thing regarding Polyjuice: > > You can make it with hair, right? That's what the Trio does in CoS. > > So WHY did Crouch Jr. have to keep Moody alive? Why not simply shave the man bald and use one hair at a time? I mean you have THOUSANDS of hairs... so there's really no need to keep someone alive just to have ingredients for Polyjuice, is there? > > And I'm still kindo f bothered about that whole wat of Polyjuice that went missing in HBP. Sure Draco used some of it to disguise Crabbe and Goyle... but... Well.... I just wonldn't be surprised if there were more polyjuiced persons in that story. Almost everyone was acting so OOC that it in some places almost made me cringe... > > ~Trekkie Crouch Jr. probably kept Moody alive in order to extract information that only Moody would know. If Crouch had to convincingly impersonate Moody, he would have to know enough about Moody to avoid suspicion---which he apparently did, because Crouch Jr. even fooled Dumbledore. Milz From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 20 16:50:42 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:50:42 -0000 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/some half-baked theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133498 Lupinlore wrote: > It seemed to me that large segments of HBP were written to please/placate/pacify certain sections of the fandom. I don't mean > that as a criticism, by any means, since I think any author > ignores their fans to their peril. Still, it was striking how > things worked out. [snip} > SSSusan: > Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a > couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing > items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan > misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." [snip] Demetra: I agree with both Lupinlore and SSSusan. The scene with Dumbledore and the Dursley's, "extra nice" Molly, McGonagall offering to intervene for Neville by writing to Gran, even Neville mentioning that Gran was proud of him after the DOM all seemed like responses to various fandom rants. And I can't help but wonder if Remus/Tonks was thrown in as a counter to the Remus/Sirius shipping. Of course, maybe Tonks was so depressed because Lupin kept asking her to morph into...no, no, not going there. After completing my first read of HMP, here are a couple of things that made me go hmmm.... The Vanishing Cabinet: Interesting concept - this portal between two places. It made me wonder if the Veil in the DOM is such a portal, between the place where the living dwell and where the dead dwell. If in fact, this room in the DOM was used to study death, the veil as a portal makes more sense than the veil as an execution device. Perhaps Sirius is not dead but trapped in the portal - like Montague. Or better yet, back to my Sirius sacrificed himself theory, what if Sirius will be a go-between, gathering information from LV's victims to determine the remaining horcruxes? Snape is a Horcrux: Conventional wisdom is that Harry, or his scar, is a horcrux. My twisted mind wondered if Snape is a horcrux and he knows it. -He knows that he must die so that Harry can kill LV. It explains why he is such a nasty bastard, he knows that he is toast. And he hates himself for being weak enough to let LV use him in this way. -It explains why he saves Harry's life. -It explains why he hates Harry. Harry will be the hero. Snape will die. -It explains why he keeps trying to teach Harry, even when Harry is throwing hexes at him at the end of HBP. Because Snape wants LV dead. He wants LV dead more than he wants to live himself. And he knows Harry is the only one who can do it. But he wants to make sure that when Harry makes his attempt on LV, that Harry will be successful. Snape may be willing to die in order to bring down LV, but he wants to make darn sure that LV is good and dead at the end. Demetra (who cannot believe that she wrote another pro-Sirius post) From exslytherin at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:51:06 2005 From: exslytherin at hotmail.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:51:06 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <200507191845990.SM00956@devbox> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133499 > . . . instead of just pouring it out on the ground? > Did that puzzle anyone else? > Vivamus I doubt it would have worked. The magic was such that you couldn't touch the liquid with anything but a cup. I imagine that if poured out the liquid would have either magically flown back into the bowl, or simply replenished itself within the bowl. Mandy From lsease at innernet.net Wed Jul 20 17:01:27 2005 From: lsease at innernet.net (simbananacat) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:01:27 -0000 Subject: Spiders- Aragog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kate885" wrote: >> > Also, has anyone noticed all the references to spiders? Spinner's > End, Aragog, the spiders in the Weasley's broom shed... lots and > lots of spiders. Methinks Jo is trying to tell us something. Perhaps > someone is trapped in a web of there own making? But is it Snape or > Dumbledore? Or perhaps both? > > Any brilliant thoughts? Mine are a little tarnished :) > > ~~Kate (mnkmurphy885) Well we know from COS that there is heard of giant spiders living in the Forbidden Forest. Now that Aragog has died, even Hagrid can not control these spiders. I think the spiders will play an important part in Book 7, maybe some Death Eaters will be driven into the forest and killed that way. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 20 17:03:01 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:03:01 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133501 Pippin: > > I am proud to report that ESE!Lupin theory is alive and > > kicking. Lupin as liason to the werewolves is confirmed, > > he considers them his equals, he provides some more > > information on dementors, and he tells Tonks he's too > > dangerous for her. I'm a happy woman today. But Julie: > I think Lupin tells Tonks he is too dangerous for her because he's a werewolf and could possibly hurt her. It's his love for her that causes him to be so protective of her. #6's biggest theme is that of sacrifice for the ones you love. Lupin's relunctance to accept Tonks' love was his denying his heart's desire for her. > > I also don't understand how his working for the Order by running with werewolves proves he is evil. Pippin: The theory is that Lupin's motives for joining the DE's are political. HBP confirms that he has come to identify with other werewolves, perhaps more than with fellow wizards, and that Umbridge and her like are so firmly entrenched in the Ministry that even if Voldemort is defeated, werewolves would still be gravely oppressed. I believe parallel to the question of what would make a nasty git like Snape serve Dumbledore, Jo is dealing with the question of what would make a kind and decent person choose Voldemort, and establishing that Lupin is indeed capable of love is part of that. Of course there won't be proof till Book Seven, if ever. But I'm about 99% certain now. Pippin From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 17:04:32 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:04:32 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133502 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" > > wrote: > > > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." I agree that this is by far one of the most powerful lines in the book, and possibly in the series. It still makes me teary. I knew that things were not looking good for DD after his beautiful, tear-jerking "I'm with you," because I saw it as the transfer of power being complete... and of course deliberately a mirror image of the beginning of the book when DD tells Harry that he won't be attacked because was with DD. Looks like DD will soon not be alone in his title of "the only one he ever feared." I think that he now has reason to fear Harry as well. grindie From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:13:09 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:13:09 -0000 Subject: Snape: A third possibility? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133503 Hi! I've been reading all the Snape posts (too much going on to read ALL posts...) because to me the Snape-related stuff in this book has been the most interesting. Really enjoyed Chapter 2, Snape not from Harry's POV, and of course the whole end of the book was such an emotional roller-coaster!! Thanks for all the interesting posts! Everyone I've read seems to be falling into two camps, or assumin there can be only two: 1) Snape has been playing DD all along, he's a DE and a cold-blooded killer to the bone. 2) Snape is a heroic double-agent working with DD, he kills DD *at his request* as part of a deeply laid plot of some kind or another, despite the terrible emotional cost of this to hinself. I actually lean towards a (toned down) version of 2), myself, must admit to being a romantic at heart. I really think ther evidence is against 1), but will not go into that here. However, I think the discussion I have read to date is missing a third option for which I see a lot of evidence. It ties in with things JKR has said about the world not being divided up into DEs and good people. In this third interpretation of the events of the series: Snape really did come to DD sincerely remorseful for his prior bad actions back in the days of Voldemort's first war. He really has been acting as a double agent in LV's camp for DD, at considerable risk to himself. BUT, he takes a gamble in Chapter 2 and loses. One may suppose that he does not know what the plan for Draco is at that time, he is trying to string Cissy and Bella along to learn this information like a good spy would. He agrees to the UV to gain their trust, and is perfectly happy to swear to protect and watch over Draco. The third request, of course, is the kicker-I think he did not see it coming. Depending on what exactly Draco's mission is, it *still* might not even be a total disaster. (Suppose Draco is to steal some powerful artifact at Hogwarts, for example...if the item could be rendered useless prior to its being stolen, the UV would not be broken...) But, as thre mission turns out to be to kill DD, well, Snape has a problem. OK, now to the tower scene. What is Snape's siutation? Draco has finally made his move. And, he has failed, in the presence of other DEs, to kill Dumbledore. As I see it, Snape at this point can either 1) Kill DD, or 2) not do it, and die for failing to live up to his UV. Snape goes with Option 1). Not because he truly serves LV, not because he hates DD, but simply to save his own life. The look of "hatred and revulsion" is as supporters of the "good Snape" theories would agree, aimed at himself/the act he is committing. And the later scene (also mentioned by many a "good Snape" supporter) in which Snape reacts so strongly to Harry calling him a coward...well, the strength of the reaction could also be because Snape *agrees* with Harry's estimation at that point. He's just killed a man who trusted and helped him in order to save his own life, and is ashamed of his own actions. This third option definitely leaves open the possibility of all sorts of interesting Snape related plots for Book 7, as much so as the "good Snape" theory, in my opinion. (Evil DE Snape has less potential for Book 7, I think...we've enough paper-chewing posturing Eeevuull villains running around already, though I suppose Snape has a style all his own.) His guilt could inspire him to some kind of sabotage in LVs camp (no need to coordinate with Order mambers of Harry for this type of action), or he could have some sort of "redemptive" scene where he does die protecting some other character, or something like that. --zgirnius From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:23:51 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:23:51 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <46.6d98b101.300e8f34@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133504 > Brief Chronicles now: > > I also would like to say that I felt her lack of proper foreshadowing > regarding the identity of the HBP was to the point of being unfair to the reader. > > Brief Chronicles, who is also sad there was no gum wrapper explanation! > Well, I must say I disagree with that. The first and biggest hint is that the book belonged to someone who really knows his/her potions. Aside from Slughorns repeated references to Lily we only know Snape as someone being connected to potions. Secondly we have seen two of the spells described in the book in the pensieve scene in OotP. One was even used by Snape himself. Plus Lupin says that those spells were rather fashionable when he was in Hogwarts, which points to a schoolmate of Lupin's. Thirdly the prince is a few times compared to Snape, e.g. Harry thinks to himself that he learned more about potions from the Prince than from Snape. The only thing about the potions book I don't really get is: Why is it still in a cupboard in the classroom? If it belonged to Snape, shouldn't he have taken it with him when he left school? Especially if he used it as a notebook and wrote such semi-dark magic spells and useful additions to potion recipies into it? This book doesn't seem to me as something you leave lying around openly. All in all I am quite dissappointed about that whole HBP business. Throughout the book we have that subplot about the mysterious Prince, and in the end it turns out to be simply a childish pun on Snape's mother's maiden name. So? Was that significant enough to name that whole book after the HBP and base the whole promotion campaign on the question "Who is the half-blood prince?" Clio, who doesn'#t really want to complain, because she is grateful about any clue about Snape's personality thrown at the readers. From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:25:16 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:25:16 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133505 So briefly to reiterate. There are seven. 1. Voldemort - had to keep one for himself. 2. Nagini - the snake - so he could inhabit the snake? 3. the diary - destroyed 4. the ring - destroyed 5. the necklace - RAB - Maybe at the Black house or sold by Mundungus. 6. Helga Huffelpuff's small golden cup shown to LV by Hepzibah. 7. ? So we have to find the cup and the necklace and figure out what the seventh one is. Do I have this correct? Bonnie From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:29:16 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:29:16 -0000 Subject: The DADA Position will bring out the worst in him... HBP Spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > I think I get that now... I do actually think I get it... The answer is... > > The DADA position *was* cursed! Anyone taking it wouldn't last longer > than a year at Hogwarts. Janeway: Yes, it seems likely that LV cursed the position somehow after applying for it the second time. But just what was the curse? Was it anything more than a one-year limit for any one DADA prof? Could it have also involved something like "DADA teachers' true nature will be revealed, to their downfall"? Looking back at each teacher, it seems that a deep secret was revealed to the world, resulting in dismissal and seriously bad luck if not death: *Quirrel: He was revealed as weak-willed and easily manipulated, to the extent that LV was able to possess him completely. He died. *Lockheart: He was revealed as a complete fraud and publicity hound who had actually stolen all the material for his books. He lost his memory and ended up in the loony bin. *Lupin: He was revealed as a werewolf, and was unable to get a good job after being dismissed from HW. *Barty Crouch Jr.: He was revealed to be an imposter and a Death Eater, and had his soul sucked by the dementors. *Umbridge: She was revealed to be a bigot, sadist, and petty tyrant who had sent Dementors after Harry. She was attacked by Centaurs and had a nervous breakdown; she was (apparently) demoted at the ministry. So given this, why would Dumbledore have finally broken down this year and given the position to Snape? He would have known that Snape could only do it for one year. Why would snape want the job? He's smart enough to have figured out the curse... If LV hadn't told him about it already. And, what does this say about Snape? If this year runs true to pattern, Snape's true nature was revealed when he killed Dumbledore, and he has a very bad fate waiting for him. Janeway From redmorning at tds.net Wed Jul 20 17:01:43 2005 From: redmorning at tds.net (redmorning) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:01:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What *is* a Horcrux: Possible 'Lily's Eyes' connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DE8377.2010208@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133507 Milz wrote: > >Now let's look at the second part of the horcrux--"Crux" or cross, >which is the Christian symbol of the death and resurrection/eternal >life of Jesus. > I agree, Milz, at least about this part, will have to think about Horus. It's interesting to see how Christian symbolism keeps cropping up. I rather liked the medieval take on crux being torment because what is Voldemort if not tormented and prefer him aligned with that definition than with anything as sacred as the life of Jesus. Jemima From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:32:13 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ESE Snape and Snogging? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720173214.12965.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133508 --- bbkkyy55 wrote: > Sorry if this has been noticed, but... I'm a ESE > Snape fan and am > rereading. When Hagrid is talking about the > argument he overheard > between Snape and DD he says: > > "Well_ I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too > much fer granted > an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it > anymore-" > > > Notice the word ANYMORE. DD was asking Snape to do > something Snape > had done before. Actually. It "didn't want to do it anymore" could mean "no longer wanted to do it" Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ragnarok725 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:57:27 2005 From: ragnarok725 at yahoo.com (ragnarok725) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:57:27 -0000 Subject: SPOILER ALERT Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: <004601c58d21$3c089600$0200a8c0@Sharon> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133509 I think there are much more satisfactory explanations for why Harry can't be a horcrux. Voldemort immediately attempted to destroy him (Harry) after murdering his parents. Why store part of your soul in something you're about to destroy (or so he thought)? It doesn't make any sense, unless he could store it in the physical body and not have it leave when Harry died. But even then it seems pretty silly given that the physical body would deteriorate and disintegrate eventually too - not exactly the perfect vehicle for somebody wishing to be immortal. The only other possibility that would be reasonable would be that he performs the spell on Harry after Diggory is killed at the end of GoF. But Voldemort himself didn't do that killing so I don't think that works out either, and I don't see any other opportunities or mentions in the book. If Harry is somehow a horcrux then it's entirely by accident and as a result of the strange bond they share, but that seems a little bit far-fetched and too much of a silly plot tool for JKR to seriously use. It's just not really plausible. And in addition, Harry needs to destroy all the horcruxes and THEN kill Voldemort. So what is he accomplishing if he kills himself to get rid of the last horcrux but then, being "the chosen one", can't kill Voldemort himself? I just don't think it works. Ragnarok From rachel at phony-art.com Wed Jul 20 16:56:16 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:56:16 -0000 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133510 > > Alina. > > Doh....yep! Your right. *blushes* Four houses, diary, ring and LV himself > doeas equal seven. I am still inclined to believe he does not have all 4 founders. I would not be surprised ot find out that he had nothing from GG holding a piece of his soul. Then there is still room for Nagini or Harry Rachel. From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:33:23 2005 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (melhersheybar) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:33:23 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: > So briefly to reiterate. There are seven. > > 1. Voldemort - had to keep one for himself. > 2. Nagini - the snake - so he could inhabit the snake? > 3. the diary - destroyed > 4. the ring - destroyed > 5. the necklace - RAB - Maybe at the Black house or sold by Mundungus. > 6. Helga Huffelpuff's small golden cup shown to LV by Hepzibah. > 7. ? > > So we have to find the cup and the necklace and figure out what the > seventh one is. Do I have this correct? > You have it as correct as anyone. The questions that have been swirling around are whether # 7 is something from Griffendor, something from Ravenclaw, Harry himself, DD, or something else. But I have also seen speculation that instead of Nagini, the last two are something from Griff and Ravenclaw, and that the Griff. item could be Harry himself. This theory believes that the Nagini speculation by DD was merely to establish that a Horcrux could be a living thing. It makes some sense, maybe even that Harry is a descendent of Griff - after all, we know of Slytherin's line, and now know of a descendant of Hufflepuff, but never hear about Griffendor and his descendants. Mhersheybar From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 17:12:08 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:12:08 -0000 Subject: Has Voldy "used" a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melhersheybar" wrote: Do you think > it is possible that VD has already "used" one of his Horcruxes? I somehow don't think that it works that way. When the AK curse backfired on Voldie, his body was destroyed, but not the piece of his soul that was left... that is why he "survived." I don't believe that the soul was destroyed. DD said that the last horcrux that would need to be destroyed would be the one in voldie himself, otherwise, he would simly be ripped from his body just like last time. Just my view on it... :) grindie From maggieanndavies at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:51:02 2005 From: maggieanndavies at yahoo.com (maggieanndavies) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:51:02 -0000 Subject: With whom did Snape invent his curses? (was: When did Snape invent his curses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133513 > "grega126" wrote: > > ... how did James learn a non-verbal spell that Snape > had > > created... > > Hannah: >> ... Perhaps the spells were Snape's, the Potions improvements > Lily's, and the two shared their discoveries with each other. Maybe > Lily let slip some of Snape's curses to her Gryffindor friends... Maybe James (or Sirius) stole Snapes' book and read it. If Lily and Snape as study partners she could have even picked up his by mistake and James could have found it. There is obviously a lot we still don't know about Snape and Lily (NOT implying and SHIP here though). Maggie From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 17:36:57 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:36:57 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133514 : > Pippin: > > > I am proud to report that ESE!Lupin theory is alive and > > > kicking. Lupin as liason to the werewolves is confirmed, > > > he considers them his equals, he provides some more > > > information on dementors, and he tells Tonks he's too > > > dangerous for her. I'm a happy woman today. But > > Julie: > > I think Lupin tells Tonks he is too dangerous for her because > > he's a werewolf and could possibly hurt her. It's his love for > > her that causes him to be so protective of her. #6's biggest > > theme is that of sacrifice for the ones you love. Lupin's > > relunctance to accept Tonks' love was his denying his heart's > > desire for her. > > > > I also don't understand how his working for the Order by running > > with werewolves proves he is evil. > Pippin: > The theory is that Lupin's motives for joining > the DE's are political. HBP confirms that he has come to identify > with other werewolves, perhaps more than with fellow wizards, > and that Umbridge and her like are so firmly entrenched in the > Ministry that even if Voldemort is defeated, werewolves would > still be gravely oppressed. I'm still confused. ;-) First, is there any canon evidence that politics plays a role for any of the Order? I personally think that JKR has quite carefully set up a world where everyone involved with any sort of politics at all (Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and just about everyone (but not everyone) connected with the Ministry of Magic) is deliberately and explicitly contrasted with the Order. Everyone in the DE and most people in the Ministry operate for reasons other than the Greater Good and operate according to personal agendas which involve, almost exclusively, power. In contrast, the Order operates according to love: platonic and brotherly love of each other, filial love of the students, and an ideal love of Good. DD speaks exactly to this in HBP. This is why I think as much as I also think it will ruin the overall dramatic and literary power of Snape's betrayal, we will see that Snape did what he did to serve the Greater Good, and that he did so in keeping with the theme of personal sacrifice for that Greater Good. Second, is there any canon evidence that Lupin, as a member of the Order, is likely to put his personal feelings ahead of the greater good? In fact, I think his denial of his love for Tonks shows how willing he is to sublimate his individual desires to the Greater Good. > I believe parallel to the question of what would make a nasty git > like Snape serve Dumbledore, Jo is dealing with the question of > what would make a kind and decent person choose Voldemort, and > establishing that Lupin is indeed capable of love is part of that. > > Of course there won't be proof till Book Seven, if ever. But I'm > about 99% certain now. It's entirely possible, and I know that a lot of the fun of the books is speculating what is going to happen next. ;-) But, IMO, while the books are very carefully layered in terms of the plot and plot mechanisms, they are, and I believe very deliberately so on the part of JKR, not as character-ly layered. Again I know it's fun to speculate and I know that that is a special element of this list ;-), so my comments are only a reflection of my own feelings that sometimes we go looking too deep into the books for things which we wish might be there are but definitely aren't there in reality. I also think one of the possible consequence for a lot of folks in book #7 is the threat of a great disappointment b/c JKR's story arc is very different than the one they are personally constructing. IMO she's definitely following the epic/quest structure, and that sacrifices character to plot. I personally do not think anyone in the Order will, in the end, have done anything that does not move Harry's quest in the right direction: toward the destruction of Evil and the triumph of Good (even if it sometimes looks different before the final battle). jujube From mangochee at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:32:21 2005 From: mangochee at yahoo.com (mangochee) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:32:21 -0000 Subject: HBP Theories: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: <1ed.402bbc05.300fd890@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133515 >---- Kathryn Jones wrote: The similarities between Harry, Voldemort and Snape have been increasing throughout the books. Mangochee: But isn't it interesting that Snape chose a name for himself that highlights his not so perfect lineage? Voldemort would never imagine calling himself "half-blood" even just to himself. Snape naming himself "Half-Blood Prince" is very intriguing to me. From maggieanndavies at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:08:33 2005 From: maggieanndavies at yahoo.com (maggieanndavies) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:08:33 -0000 Subject: A Very Cocky Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133516 "imthruthelookinglass" wrote: > If nothing else, > Dumbledore's behavior was certainly a sign that something was not > right with him. I may be another clue to his knoweledge of his > demise. > Maggie: I totally agree, there was something "off" about Dumbledore throughout this book. As I said in 133260 he just didn't seem quite like himself. You're subject line is great, he was cocky. I still think he took risks with Harry that he never did before. Still it can just be that DD knew that Harry would eventually have to do these types of things on his own some day. From josturgess at eircom.net Wed Jul 20 16:01:42 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:01:42 -0000 Subject: Tarot cards (was Lightning-Struck Tower) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > Interesting theory about the Ravenclaw artifact being a wand, based on > the tarot. And, one of the experts of the Wizarding World on wands, > Mr Ollivander, is missing. > > Maybe that wand on display in the front of his shop once belonged to > Ravenclaw herself, and not VM as many have speculated. If that's so, > then it's possible the DE's captured him to get access to that wand, > or it's possible that he hid to keep it from anyone gaining access. > ... it's always possible his last act before disappearing was to *sell* that wand to Neville Regards Jo I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron. From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:44:23 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:44:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the poison(?) potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133518 "ar_hp03" wrote: > If the potion was merely poisonous then the reactions would have been > closer to the way Ron was described at Slughorn's office after driking > the mead. > > What does everyone else think ? > > AR, who knows for sure that the potion was a dark potion and was not > poison. I've referred to it as "poison", but we can call it "dementor potion" or something if you like. The fact is that it was a lethal concoction of some sort. Dumbledore was obviously dying from it. If it wasn't poison, strictly speaking, then it is even more certain that Dumbledore would have died from its effects, since shoving a bezoar down his throat wouldn't even have worked. (I can imagine Snape always carrying a few bezoars around with him. It wouldn't surprise me anyway.) Incidentally, if I am right and Dumbledore would have died anyway, who do you think Harry would have blamed for his death? I think he would have blamed himself and he would have been even more devastated. Harry did force Dumbledore to drink 12 goblets full of the stuff, after all. So in a sense, by killing Dumbledore Snape not only prevented Draco from killing him, he also prevented Harry from killing him. I am more certain than ever that Snape is sincerely working for the Order of the Phoenix. To me the mystery is why. I don't understand his motivations. He is obviously no humanitarian. It is possible that for some reason, he HAS to work for the Order. He may even resent the fact that he has to. He may wish he could quit and join the Death Eaters. But for some reason, he can't. Dumbledore understands his motivations and that is why he trusts him. snipsnapsnurr From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 17:44:42 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:44:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The three main theories -- HBP Spoilers Message-ID: <6d.4992c722.300fe78a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133519 In a message dated 7/19/2005 8:42:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com writes: Avery Ke wrote: > Would Kreacher obey Harry if Regulus was still alive? Regulus living > would be a male in the direct line of the Black family, much closer > than his -- please correct me if I've mixed up the genealogy -- female > cousin Bella. > > Avery Regulus is dead. JKR has stated so unequivocally and more than once in interviews. No, I don't have the link, sorry, but she said something to the effect that "he hasn't been up to much lately, seeing as he's dead". Michelle Brief Chronicles now: I believe he probably is dead, and at first I thought the theory that Kreacher helped him get the locket wouldn't work because Kreacher belonged to Sirius, but isn't Regulus the older of the two brothers? That would make Regulus in charge of Kreacher before he died, and that would make Kreacher pass to Sirius after Regulus died. I think the fact that Kreacher belonged to Sirius is proof that Regulus is indeed dead, and the fact that Kreacher now belongs to Harry is proof that Sirius isn't coming back. *sob* But it does, however, allow for Kreacher to have helped Regulus get the locket. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Wed Jul 20 17:45:50 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:45:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has Voldy "used" a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DE8DCE.2000509@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133520 melhersheybar wrote: > Here is a question I have been wondering about as I have read > discussions about the Horcrux's creation and timeline. Do you think > it is possible that VD has already "used" one of his Horcruxes? I > mean, when the AK rebounded in the Potter House, something kept him > alive - that something was the fact that he had gone farther than > anyone else to make himself immortal by creating the Horcruxes. So it > seems to me that in order to be the half life he was for so many > years, he would have had to get to one of his Horcruxes to release > that piece of his soul to keep himself alive. So, what was that > piece? Where was it? Did he create a replacement one later or are > there really only five left? > > Mhersheybar > Kathy writes: Since he had already killed twice that night, James and then Lilly, there would have been two splits and the original. What if one split (Lily's) was accidentally encased in Harry when V tried to kill him. The original would have been destroyed by the rebounding curse, which then left one split (James) to survive. Could go either way. We have been told about 12 times how much Harry looks like James and the same for Lily's eyes. Voldemort would only have wanted to use Harry's death for a horcrux because he was the most significant due to the prophecy. That would explain why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry himself and still does. That may answer why Snape killed DD as well. If he was killed as a result of something that V. had set in place, would he be able to use that death to make another horcrux? Dumbledore was certainly significant. KJ From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 17:46:23 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:46:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) Message-ID: <1b9.17d53da2.300fe7ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133521 In a message dated 7/19/2005 8:45:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, k.coble at comcast.net writes: Katherine now: I really think that the only thing wrong with Tonks was unrequited love. She thanks Molly for "the tea and sympathy" back at the Burrow; Molly and Arthur quickly change the subject when they think that Harry will reveal the new Patronus conjured by Tonks. Basically, Harry is wrapped up in his own universe and doesn't bother to make himself aware of the drama between Tonks and Lupin. I don't think any convoluted polyjuice drinking plays into it at all. Brief Chronicles now: I think Tonks' odd behavior was just a red herring, which pleases me, since I love Tonks so much. :) But I was worried throughout the book that Tonks was either being Imperiused or impersonated with Polyjuice. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:48:52 2005 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (melhersheybar) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:52 -0000 Subject: Has Voldy "used" a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melhersheybar" > wrote: > Do you think > > it is possible that VD has already "used" one of his Horcruxes? and then grindie answered: > > I somehow don't think that it works that way. When the AK curse > backfired on Voldie, his body was destroyed, but not the piece of his > soul that was left... that is why he "survived." This is Mhersheybar again - I guess what I don't understand then is why a Horcrux is needed to make you immortal. If the piece of LV's soul that was in him at the time he tried to kill Harry still survived, even if LV's body was gone, then it wouldn't matter if there were other pieces of it stowed in various places. I read the Horcrux explanation to mean that you were protected because if one piece of your soul (and, as it happened, your body) were destroyed, the other pieces outside your body were there to keep you alive untill you could figure out a way to fully restore yourself. The Horcruxes to me are like having bank accounts in different countries - if the money you keep on yourself gets used up, go to another bank and make a withdrawl. When the killing curse backfired, it should have "killed" that piece of LV's soul, leading him to need to go get one of his Horcruxes to replenish himself. Mhershey From JodyE50 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 15:51:24 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:51:24 EDT Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? Message-ID: <6a.59b85c77.300fccfc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133523 jjjjjulie at aol.com writes: > So, are we to assume as Harry did that the Prince must have > been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the *publication* > date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? The book originally belonged to Eileen Prince, Snape's mother. She gave him the book as a hand me down and he wrote in it. "JodyE50" From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 17:55:04 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:55:04 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <6a.59b85c77.300fccfc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, JodyE50 at a... wrote: > jjjjjulie at a... writes: > > > So, are we to assume as Harry did that the Prince must have > > been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the *publication* > > date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? > > > The book originally belonged to Eileen Prince, Snape's mother. > She gave him the book as a hand me down and he wrote in it. Just to clarify: I didn't write the part you quoted. :-) jujube From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 17:59:39 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:39 -0000 Subject: Snape as Judas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133525 I believe there are some branches of the Christian church who believe that Judas should receive some honour, since without his betrayal, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no salvation. I havent realy worked this out properly, but wonder if Snape is somehow playing Judas to Dumbledore's Christ. Sylvia From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:59:56 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:59:56 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133526 Sorry to reply to my own post. I just wanted to add that I forgot clue #4 to Snape's identity as the HBP: The Prince's handwriting is described as small and cramped. That is exactly the wording used to describe Snape's writing in the pensieve scene in OotP when Harry watches the Marauders plus Snape take their OWLs. Clio From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 18:00:23 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:00:23 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133527 Pipin: > I believe parallel to the question of what would make a nasty git > like Snape serve Dumbledore, Jo is dealing with the question of what > would make a kind and decent person choose Voldemort, and > establishing that Lupin is indeed capable of love is part of that. > > Of course there won't be proof till Book Seven, if ever. But I'm > about 99% certain now. Jen: First, I don't understand how if ESE!Lupin isn't confirmed in Book 7 it would still be true. If JKR never follows that particular storyline, it might be plausible given the information in the books, but it would never be canon. And Book 6 generates more hurdles than support for ESE!Lupin, from what I read. The introduction of Fenrir as the werewolf Death Eater is in opposition to Lupin in canon. A man who was bitten and chose to turn his trauma into a life of evil actions. Whereas Lupin, despite his traumatic childhood and lifetime curse, continues to choose a life of humanity---having friendships, teaching others, furthering a cause and, the big leap in this book, allowing himself to be vulnerable through intimate love with another person. And most of the other werewolves Remus is living amongst have also chosen Voldemort's side over the WW! He calls him 'his equals' but then 'sounded a little bitter'--this isn't work he enjoys or perhaps even feels is productive. He understands why a person living on the 'margins of society' might choose to side with Voldemort, even if he himself hasn't made that choice. He knows it will be very hard to persuade them otherwise. To find out Lupin is acting like all the rest of the werewolves in Potterverse would be a bit ho-hum. It's much more interesting to trace why he *didn't* chose the path the others did, and I very much think DD allowing him to attend Hogwarts, and his friendship with the Marauders, very much influenced Lupin's later choices as outlined above. Jen From kjones at telus.net Wed Jul 20 18:02:19 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:02:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Theories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DE91AB.7070806@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133528 jjjjjuliep wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > The thing that really bugs me, which some of you might have > > bumped into by now, and have not responded to is this: the whole > > of the comments made by Dumbledore as he was drinking the potion. > > To me, it sounded like Snape's worst memories, including one > > remark that was almost word for word one that Harry heard his > > mother screaming the night of the GH attack. Could Dumbledore have > > been a repository for Snape's really worst memories, which were > > replayed by the potion. It just doesn't sound like anything that > > Dumbledore would have been sorry for or done, but it does sound like > > all of the really bad moments in Snape's earlier years. Apparently > > pensives are not all that secure in Hogwarts. > > This would also explain Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape. > > I'm not sure why the potion in the cave would have anything to do with > Snape, or why Dumbledore, upon drinking it, would channel any of > Snape's memories? jjjjjuliep Kathy writes: BUT if Dumbledore was sending Snape back to Voldemort, he must have known that there was a chance that he would see everything in Snape's mind. Obviously, pensives are not terribly secure around Harry. I think DD is hiding everything he needs to in his own head. We have seen him place memories in his head before. Don't you think it is an enticing theory when you compare the comment "Not that, not that, I'll do anything" to what Harry hears his mother say when he is attacked by dementors, "not Harry! Not Harry! Please-I'll do anything-" I also think that these memories as well as others have been sent back to Snape now that he has "proven himself beyond all doubt" KJ From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 18:06:06 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:06:06 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: <2566af73aa6f7236384269b8ffbe27c1@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > 1. Pieces of soul stored in a ring > 2. Evil giant spiders > 3. The bodies of the dead guarding a path through water (Inferi in HP; > Dead Marshes in LOTR) > 4. Evil servants bent and twisted to the nefarious purposes of the > leader (Death Eaters in HP; Nazgul in LOTR) > 5. Young, purehearted heros (Frodo & Sam; Harry & Ron) > 6. Great Wizards (Dumbledore; Gandalf) > 7. Reflective basins which reveal hidden thoughts of the past > (Pensieve in HP) and future (Galadriel's Mirror in LOTR). > 8. Wise forest creatures who speak in riddles (Ents in LOTR; > C'ent'aurs in HP) > > Any others I've missed? > > Not that I think JKR is copying (she's most definitely not....) but > what are the odds we'll see Dumbledore resurrected in some form? Hannah: With any books from the same genre you can find some parallels. I find canon most similar to the 'Children of the Red King' stories by Jenny Nimmo, which came after HP and is more for younger children than HP is. The biggest nod to Tolkien in HBP, IMO, is the use of the name Proudfoot. That's a hobbit name from LOTR, and JKR uses it for one of the Aurors stationed at Hogsmeade. I doubt we'll see DD resurrected. The whole message that DD gives throughout the books is that death is not to be feared, but viewed as a new adventure. I hope we'll see Fawkes back. I think there's a danger in taking HP and comparing it to any other series and saying 'that happened there so it will happen here.' There's too many series it could apply to for one thing, and I've seen it done to often and disproved for another. Sadly. I'd like to see DD back. I just don't think we will. Hannah From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 18:09:12 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:09:12 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: <1b9.17d53da2.300fe7ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133530 Personally I think Tonks is to be complimented on her excellent taste in men. As a fully trained auror she certainly has the resources to cope with Lupin's 'furry little problem' and she'll feed him up and mend his robes. Go Tonks! From xirene101 at cs.com Wed Jul 20 15:56:32 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:56:32 -0400 Subject: Ollivander's Disappearance and Neville Message-ID: <1E8AFDA6.17E08D98.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133531 Carodave wrote: > [snip] > LV had over a year (since his duel with Harry in the graveyard > in GoF) to 'ask' Ollivander to create a new wand for him to > duel with Harry; it must be something that happened recently > (ie, Neville's purchase) that forced LV and/or DEs to take > away Ollivander, or forced him to go into hiding. "Stephanie" wrote: >Since a wand chooses his owner...I don't think it's a matter >of Voldemort looking for Ollivander to create a new wand, but >to get Ollivander to reveal how Volde can get around the "no >brother wands can duel" thing. I too think it's odd that >Neville was one of the last to buy a wand from Ollivander, but >I can't figure out why...might just be a Mark Evans coincident. Some other thoughts about wands: 1) Are there other "brother" (or "sister", for that matter!) wand pairs out there? Maybe Neville's new wand can counter that of one of the DE's? 2) What happens to a wizard's wand when he/she dies? Will someone inherit DD's wand? 3) As I mentioned in an earlier post re: corresponding the Houses to the Tarot deck Minor Arcana, Ravenclaw would be the suit of Wands. Maybe Ollivander has (or knows something about) Rowena's wand, and Voldy wants it? ~Sue From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Wed Jul 20 18:12:24 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:12:24 -0000 Subject: Ollivander's Disappearance and Neville In-Reply-To: <1E8AFDA6.17E08D98.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xirene101 at c... wrote: > 2) What happens to a wizard's wand when he/she dies? Will someone inherit DD's wand? The lament for Odo suggests a wizard's wand is normally broken and the pieces buried with him. Of course there could be exceptions to that rule..... From christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 15:55:50 2005 From: christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk (christopher) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:55:50 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore's request of the Dursleys Reasonable (Spoilers for HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133533 Milz wrote: > I think it does protect the Dursleys to an extent. Voldemort/DEs > haven't attacked the Dursleys either while Harry was there or > while Harry is at school. > > Harry is only bound to the Dursleys because he is Petunia's > blood relative. And it's that blood tie between Petunia, Lily and > Harry that protects both Harry and the Dursleys. So since Aunt Petunia is Lily's blood relative, her blood also protects the Dursleys? It would be intresting if the DE did try and get information out of the Dursleys. Though maybe Lord Voldermort is too afraid of Petunia (joke) "christopher" From roseviolet66 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 16:04:21 2005 From: roseviolet66 at yahoo.com (roseviolet66) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:04:21 -0000 Subject: Ollivander's Disappearance and Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carodave92" wrote: > 4. LV had over a year (since his duel with Harry in the graveyard > in GoF) to 'ask' Ollivander to create a new wand for him to duel > with Harry; it must be something that happened recently (ie, > Neville's purchase) that forced LV and/or DEs to take away > Ollivander, or forced him to go into hiding. True, but during the vast majority of the time bewteen GoF and HBP Voldemort was laying low and taking full advantage of Fudge's refusal to acknowledge Voldemort's return. I'm not sure that Voldemort would have blown his cover and approached Ollivander before now (if that, in fact, is the case), especially given his focus was really on obtaining the full prophecy up to this point. But I definitely agree that there's something more to Ollivander's disappearance. I'm just not sure where Neville fits in. ~Roseviolet From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:17:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:17:12 -0000 Subject: Adventure and Harry's Death? In-Reply-To: <80fba3145605cf18a55cb253ddc43788@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133535 Katherine Coble wrote: > I don't want Harry to die in Book 7. That's my one plea. Well, that > and I want him to LHEA with Ginny. > > But was it a bit of foreshadowing when Dumbledore says to Harry > (paraphrased): > > "Forth to Adventure" > > in Book 6? > > If, after all, "to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great > adventure." Alla: Hey, Katherine. Well, ever the optimist me thinks that foreshadowing was of Dumbledore's death not Harry's. If it was related to Harry, then I think or more like I want to think that it foreshadowed Harry's symbolic death and resurrection afterwards for the reasons I am sure JKR would be able to come up with. I am more and more inclined to think that Harry would indeed be sure that he is the last Horcrux and it would either turned out not to be true at the end OR someone would unxorcrux him at the end. Please let it be Snape , JKR. :-) After all , the ring indeed was no longer a horcrux, so we do have a hint that such thing is possible. Just me of course, Alla From imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:15:48 2005 From: imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com (imthruthelookinglass) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15:48 -0000 Subject: Beautiful Line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133536 "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the > most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? imthruthelookinglass now: I couldn't agree more. This touched me deeply. Not only did it show Dumbledore's confidence in Harry, it made quite clear the trust he had in Harry as a friend and equal. His most intimate feelings as a father figure for Harry carefully spoken as a close friend. Wonderful how a few words can sum up so much love. From greenminicat at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 20 18:08:22 2005 From: greenminicat at yahoo.ca (Green Minicat) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Snape and the UV Message-ID: <20050720180822.19483.qmail@web34002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133537 What if LV sent Narcissa to Snape that night and made her get Snape to agree to the UV? Undoubtably, LV is punishing the Malfoy family for Lucius messing up in the DOM and has set for Draco a task that he doesn't believe Draco can succeed at. Nevertheless, LV still wants DD dead so manipulate Snape into doing it by the UV. Perhaps LV thinks this will out Snape as loyal to DD should he prove unable to do it. But DD knows about the UV (perhaps Snape told him) and the pleading at the end is DD asking Snape to follow through because somehow Snape is more important to the cause than DD himself. Just a thought... Green Minicat From kelli.stiver at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:21:22 2005 From: kelli.stiver at gmail.com (Kelli) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:21:22 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133538 Brothergib wrote: > Interesting to note (if it hasn't been already) that Gandalf > was thought to have been killed off in LOTR but was reborn. > Perhaps we will see the same thing with Dumbledore? > > Personally, I don't think so, but worth making the point! I just finished reading the book last night and the same thought crossed my mind but there was no hinting or foreshadowing of any other way to preserve one's immortality except through a horcrux. I don't think Dumbledore would have used this due to its association with dark magic. I don't know I guess we'll have to wait another 2 years to find out. Sigh!!! "Kelli" From lycanthropylupus at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:58:04 2005 From: lycanthropylupus at gmail.com (Gwen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ESE Snape and Snogging? In-Reply-To: <20050720173214.12965.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050720173214.12965.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133539 Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Actually. It "didn't want to do it anymore" could > mean "no longer wanted to do it" Gwen's response: I interpreted this scene in the same way as Rebecca. That at some point Snape had agreed to keep his Unbreakable Vow and kill Dumbledore. Then, for an unknown reason, he changes his mind and cannot agree to do so any longer (i.e. anymore). Interpreted in this way, it would lead to the conclusion that his resistance to contuining was because he did not want to have to AK Dumbledore, while Dumbledore was attempting to convince him that he must if necessary. Unfortunately, and fortunately (from the debating standpoint) this scene could be read either way. Snogging has been around for a long time, it's just not used that much in America. It's a common phrase in the UK, besically equivalent to making out. Gwen From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 18:26:03 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:26:03 -0000 Subject: HBP Theories In-Reply-To: <42DE91AB.7070806@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133540 [all previous stuff kept for context] --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > jjjjjuliep wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > > > > The thing that really bugs me, which some of you might have > > > bumped into by now, and have not responded to is this: the > > > whole of the comments made by Dumbledore as he was drinking > > > the potion. To me, it sounded like Snape's worst memories, > > > including one remark that was almost word for word one that > > > Harry heard his mother screaming the night of the GH attack. > > > Could Dumbledore have been a repository for Snape's really > > > worst memories, which were replayed by the potion. It just > > > doesn't sound like anything that Dumbledore would have been > > > sorry for or done, but it does sound like all of the really > > > bad moments in Snape's earlier years. Apparently > > > pensives are not all that secure in Hogwarts. > > > This would also explain Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape. > > > > I'm not sure why the potion in the cave would have anything to > > do with Snape, or why Dumbledore, upon drinking it, would channel > > any of Snape's memories? > jjjjjuliep > > Kathy writes: > BUT if Dumbledore was sending Snape back to Voldemort, he must > have known that there was a chance that he would see everything in > Snape's mind. Obviously, pensives are not terribly secure around > Harry. I think DD is hiding everything he needs to in his own > head. We have seen him place memories in his head before. Don't > you think it is an enticing theory when you compare the > comment "Not that, not that, I'll do anything" to what Harry hears > his mother say when he is attacked by dementors, "not Harry! Not > Harry! Please-I'll do anything-" I also think that these memories > as well as others have been sent back to Snape now that he > has "proven himself beyond all doubt" But the liquid (whatever it was) in the bowl in the cave was put there by someone else, not Snape or DD. We have no evidence that Snape ever was in that cave. As far as we know, from what JKR has told us, only Voldemort as a child with 2 children, and Voldemort as a young man, and "RAB" had been there before Harry and Dumbledore. Also, we have no evidence that Snape asked DD to hold any of his memories in his own head (in fact, I don't think JKR has told us that such a thing was even possible). And even if he had, how did he get the memories back to Snape before Snape killed him? See, and this is my own personal opinion only, I don't think that books are that over- complicated. Some things are definitely not what they seem, yes, but generally JKR puts forth the important things to us in a straightforward way. So it seems most likely, to me at least, that the feelings or images that the liquid produced were somehow related directly to Voldemort, and I'm guessing those of his victims. jujube From tab1669 at elnet.com Wed Jul 20 16:23:48 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:23:48 -0000 Subject: my thoughts about H/G ship and Dumbledore's death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133541 The whole Ginny-Harry ship, I was so happy. It's funny that just in the last book Harry called Ginny too young to go with him. Now she was told to go with Ron and Hermione to watch the school. If Harry was under a love potion he would not think about what Ron would think. Also that would take a lot of effert to do that everyday. Ginny would have also made it possible for Harry to date her sooner. That would be dumb if she spent all this time putting the love potion on Harry and then still be dating Dean. That makes sense 'let's put Harry under a spell and make him wait because I'm dating Dean.' Harry spent a lot of time with her and then when he saw her kissing Dean he realized he diid not like that. It's hormones. I know all of the sudden I would start liking this guy out of nowhere. It happens, well in my case, a lot. In Chapter twenty-seven I have read a lot of peoples' opinions on this. I have not read all of them but I have not read an explanation for this. I coould be wrong, but did anyone mention why Dumbledore put a curse on Harry. He's was wearing the cloak he could snuck up on Draco and stunned him. Why would Dumbledore do that to Harry if he did not want Harry to ruin the plan? flyingmonkeypurple From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:30:11 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fate of Ollivander In-Reply-To: <1121780079.4072.4984.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050720183011.51798.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133542 "vmonte" wrote: > There is something going on with Olivander though. Did he go into > hiding? I believe Ollivander has been taken by LV or a death eater in order to figure out why Harry's wand and LV's wand reacted to each other at the end of GoF. LV doesn't know that they share Fawke's feathers, and it is something that would have to be addressed before LV meets up with Harry again. We know that LV has given orders to leave Harry to him. On another point, I believe part of Dumbledore's (and Snape's) motivation was to protect Draco from having to kill. I believe Dumbledore would want to protect one of his students (no matter who they are), but it also sets Draco up to owe Snape. Morgan From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jul 20 18:30:26 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:30:26 -0400 Subject: Book 7 timeline Message-ID: <003d01c58d59$19787e60$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> No: HPFGUIDX 133543 I thought it was interesting that book 6 didn't end as the previous 5 had, Harry getting picked up by the Dursleys at the train station. It made me wonder... Will book 7 start there? What will Harry be doing to prepare while he's at Privit Drive ? (I can't believe he didn't question Petunia about her knowlede of the wizarding world!) How much time will pass in book 7? If Harry doesn't attend school, and I don't believe he will, (hopefully he'll go there but not attend regular school) does the book have to follow the same timeline? Does it have to end in the spring? Harry sure has alot to do in that time. Look how long it's taken to destroy 2 horcruxes. Harry has to destroy 4 and then kill Voldemort. Harry doesn't have to destroy the horcruxes himself though. I hope he calls in the Order of the Phoenix to help. He probably will, or we won't get to see anyone. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:32:47 2005 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:32:47 -0000 Subject: Snape: A third possibility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133544 Zgirnius wrote: He really has been acting as a double agent in LV's camp for DD, at considerable risk to himself. BUT, he takes a gamble in Chapter 2 and loses. One may suppose that he does not know what the plan for Draco is at that time, he is trying to string Cissy and Bella along to learn this information like a good spy would. He agrees to the UV to gain their trust, and is perfectly happy to swear to protect and watch over Draco. The third request, of course, is the kicker-I think he did not see it coming. Jen's response: But I think Snape might have known what Draco's task was - (forgive me, I don't have my HBP with me so can't give citations or quotes) - When Cissy asks him for the third request, to fulfill Draco's task, he becomes still and looks at her intently. Could he have been using legilemency? I also believe that Cissy might not have been able to defend herself using occlumency, because, on the night of Slug's Christmas party, Harry overhears Spape saying to Draco that apparently his Aunt Bella (NOT his mother) was teaching him occlumency. I think he would have had to agree to the task whether he knew what it was or not - but I think there was a good chance that he did know. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 18:37:22 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:37:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape - what about the unbreakable vow? Message-ID: <92.2b255346.300ff3e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133545 daveshardell at yahoo.com writes: >Now, my list of things that I was surprised were missing in the book: - Nothing major about Lily revealed Ray replies: I have to take issue with this. In the pensieve scenes in OotP, we are given the basis of Snape's hatred of James Potter. But others have assumed that Snape secretly pined for Lily, and his hatred for James really blossomed when she chose James over him. Now we see another facet (perhaps the only canon facet) of Snape's relationship with Lily. We see that Snape, even when he was a student, was skilled enough in potions to "correct" the textbook. But who does Slughorn sote over, even now, after all these years? Lily Evans Potter! Although no memories of Lily are explored, and Harry learns nothing useful about his mother, Lily and her new academic "triangle" of Lily/Snape/Slughorn does indeed reveal something major about Lily. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjjjjulie at aol.com Wed Jul 20 18:37:14 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:37:14 -0000 Subject: Book 7 timeline In-Reply-To: <003d01c58d59$19787e60$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joj" wrote: > I thought it was interesting that book 6 didn't end as the previous > 5 had, Harry getting picked up by the Dursleys at the train > station. It made me wonder... > > Will book 7 start there? JKR has said that we should think of Book 6 and Book 7 more like a 2 part book. Also, we learned in Book 5 that Harry must spend some time with the Dursleys every year for the magicial protection it offers, and this is reiterated at the beginning of Book 6. jujube From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 18:38:21 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:38:21 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore's request of the Dursleys Reasonable (Spoilers for HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christopher" wrote: > Milz wrote: > > I think it does protect the Dursleys to an extent. Voldemort/DEs > > haven't attacked the Dursleys either while Harry was there or > > while Harry is at school. > > > > Harry is only bound to the Dursleys because he is Petunia's > > blood relative. And it's that blood tie between Petunia, Lily and > > Harry that protects both Harry and the Dursleys. > > > So since Aunt Petunia is Lily's blood relative, her blood also > protects the Dursleys? > > It would be intresting if the DE did try and get information out of > the Dursleys. Though maybe Lord Voldermort is too afraid of Petunia > (joke) > > "christopher" Possibly. Dudley is a blood relative of Harry, so the protection might extend to him. Vernon's outta luck if you go by the blood relation link. I don't think Lily's love was the only bit of protection Harry has. In the "What are horcruxes" message, I offered my ideas about the "Lily's eyes" thing and Harry's protection. I think Dumbledore added extra protection to Harry, which is why he has to return to the Dursley household for a few weeks every year. Milz From roseviolet66 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 17:55:56 2005 From: roseviolet66 at yahoo.com (roseviolet66) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:55:56 -0000 Subject: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: <001101c58ccc$c68948b0$c285cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133548 Alina wrote: > Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. It > means that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. Then Richelle wrote: > Unless Dumbledore was wrong, the only item that belonged to > Gryffindor is safely in his office--the sword. (Though what > about the Sorting Hat?) > According to Dumbledore, the 7 parts of Voldemort's soul are in: > 1. Riddle's Diary (destroyed) > 2. Slytherin's ring (destroyed) > 3. Slytherin's locket (missing, possibly in Grimmauld Place) > 4. Hufflepuff's Cup (goodness knows where) > 5. An item that was either Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's (if > there's an unknown out there somewhere) > 6. Nagini > 7. Voldemort himself Roseviolet now writes: But wouldn't Voldemort have lost one of those horcruxes (himself) when he died as a result of the rebounded AK on baby Harry? That would leave six. The diary was destroyed in CoS. That would leave five. Slytherin's gaunt ring was destroyed in HBP. That would leave only four outstanding horcruxes including--assuming Dumbledore is correct--Slytherin's locket, Hufflepuff's cup, Nagini and Voldemort himself (this is the horcrux he would have had to use to remain alive after that night in Godric's Hollow). I don't see room for a further horcrux from a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor artifact unless Voldemort divided his soul into eight instead of seven. Hmmm... ~Roseviolet From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:48:50 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:48:50 -0000 Subject: Why Half-Blood Prince? was: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133549 > >---- > Kathryn Jones wrote: > The similarities between > Harry, Voldemort and Snape have been increasing throughout the books. > > > > Mangochee: > But isn't it interesting that Snape chose a name for himself that > highlights his not so perfect lineage? Voldemort would never imagine > calling himself "half-blood" even just to himself. Snape naming > himself "Half-Blood Prince" is very intriguing to me. You are right, Mangochee. Although Half-Blood Prince sounds a bit like those megalomanic mystery names (Voldemort, Superman ...), if you know the background, it is becomes almost comic. Like someone having a laugh about himself and his own (dysfunctional?)family. Someone who doesn't take himself very seriously. I find it a bit difficult to picture Snape as that person, because it seems to be his goal in life to be respected and feared. The Half-Blood Prince name seems to be completely out of character for Snape. What kind of person would write such a silly name in a school textbook, anyways? Snape must have known that the marauders would have had a field day if they discovered that nickname. And yet we are to believe that Lupin knew noone of that name. If it wasn't for Snape's cheesy line in 'The Flight of the Prince' ('... I, the Half-Blood Prince ...') I would have written the name off as a cynical teenager's idea of a stupid joke about his family. Is there maybe something very special about the Prince family, that we don't know about yet? Like speaking Parseltongue or owning the biggest race broom factory in England? From what we know of the Snape family home-life and financial status I just can't imagine the future Death Eater Snape to be overly proud of his mother or his ancestry in general. And yet... ... there is something eerie about the name. It fits Snape, the trusted adviser of Voldemort, second in command. The dark Prince to the dark Lord. Is Snape Tom Riddle of his generation, successor to Voldemort, who took over the arch-villaindom from Grindelwald? I, too, think that the similarities between Harry, Riddle and Snape are no coincedence. But what are we supposed to think about it? Clio From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 18:49:05 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:49:05 -0000 Subject: Rednecks In-Reply-To: <20050719183043.GF9486@gesh.kejia> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Avery Ke wrote: > cayres1 wrote: > >My little brother (who, at age 20, is not that little) made me > >laugh when he said: "Voldemort's a redneck!" (Though, to be > >perfectly correct, it's his mother's family, not him). > > Well, not precisely, since a redneck is defined as a "a poor white > person in the southern United States." I don't know the British > equivalent. A peasant, a yeoman? > My reply: I found this scene poignant as well. I'm reading a book called "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America" by James Webb which probably shaped my response. I'll share some quotes fom the book on the Scot-Irish character: "Most of them had little or no schooling, knew no refined trade and had read no book...Few would have had any idea why someone would even want to sit down in front of an easel with a dozen pots of colored oils and paint a picture...But they were strong, keen of practical intellect...And if any man, no matter how highly born, should strike or offend them, it was their credo to strike back twice as hard." p88- 89. This scene put me in mind of the Scots at the time of William Wallace called upon to acknowledge the lordship of the English or the Highlanders after the Battle of Culloden who were persecuted by the English for wearing kilts, speaking the Gaelic and playing the bagpipes. And, as Mr. Webb acknowledges, in the USA we call them Rednecks (in Canada, they are callled Newfies - Newfoundland was heavily settled by the Scots and Irish). The question I had is: why are these people being told they have broken laws they obviously had no ken existed, and that they must answer to an authority they obviously don't acknowledge? And although they are obviously a mean-spirited and even criminal pair, I admit this Scots-Irish American felt a moment of sympathy. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:51:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:51:13 -0000 Subject: A Very Cocky Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imthruthelookinglass" wrote: > The Dumbledore we are used to is/was/is mostly a humble Wizard. It > struck me funny how often he complimented himself and his abilities > in this edition. (huge snip) Juli: Dumbledore is humble in a way he doesn't want fame or glory or fotune, but he's always been confident about his skills and knowledge. In PS/SS, at the end when he's explaining Harry about how he got the Philosopher's Stone, he says something that it was one of his best ideas, which is a lot to say, or something like that. But is he cocky? no. He's confident. Juli From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:55:10 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as Judas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720185510.51140.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133552 --- rochesteruponmedway wrote: > I believe there are some branches of the Christian > church who believe > that Judas should receive some honour, since without > his betrayal, > there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore > no salvation. > I havent realy worked this out properly, but wonder > if Snape is somehow > playing Judas to Dumbledore's Christ. > > Sylvia > that is a very good point sylvia-but if Snape is really a Judas then is He a Judas to Lord V or Dumbledore? In my mind it can work two ways here. In some respects not only did He betray DD but he also betray LV so to speak he is a Judas on both sides. The intresting thing will be how will he redeem himself. laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:55:13 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore and phoenixes In-Reply-To: <1121782449.3574.34402.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050720185513.73262.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133553 Juli wrote: "So starting from there, he?s my theory Dumbledore is not dead, he?s merely changed, he?s become a phoenix." Ah, denial is lovely! Although I like the idea that a phoenix is a man after death, I don't think anything JKR has said in her books and outside them points to a death being less than true death. I believe that Dumbledore's patronus was probably a phoenix, but the white phoenix Harry saw flying to the sky was Dumbledore's soul off to heaven (or whatever metaphorical place you wish to call it). I also believe Dumbledore's family was there at the funeral (Aberforth, at least we know was there). And I believe that his trust in Snape will end up having something to do with family, though I'm not sure what. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:55:09 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:55:09 -0000 Subject: Comments on Comments-NO SNAPE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133554 This post covers comments on Fleur, Ginny, Harry, Weasleys, OOC, Hermione, Dumbledore, and Ron. NO SNAPE THEORIES Several have stated how bothersome it was to read about how the Weasley's, particularly Ginny and Molly, treated Fleur. I can see your argument, from being on the outside looking in. I can only say that until you've met someone like Fleur in real life (and I mean like her, not "kind of" like her), then maybe you can't understand what's taking place at the Weasley's when Fleur is there. I have met two people similar to Fleur. One I won't go into, it would take too long. The other is very attractive and very vain (and from a european country). She also has this way of being rude without concern. She would rely on people for rides or companionship or whatever, and then put down everything about it. For instance, this gal needed a ride somewhere. No one in our group would offer it, so I did. The whole way she told me stuff like how my car would never be allowed on the road where she was from, and that only beggars drove such cars. She went on for over a half hour! She also had something better to compare anything to (her house was nicer, her country was safer, her shoes were better quality, etc). She would also never lift a finger to help out with anything yet be there for the glory. Always happy to be the eye candy or displaying model (like when Fleur took Molly's tray into Harry, but didn't do anything to help put it together). I personally feel the Weasly's showed GREAT patience. It wasn't until they could come together over their love for Bill that they found a common ground to build upon. It wasn't until I saw Fleur have this sort of Fortitude that I even starting to like her...a little. (I'm amazed she's able to love someone other than herself and would love to know what exactly her and Bill's relationship is based on...what attracts/motivates it). Ginny is an independant gal who likes her personal space. Maybe you don't like these kinds of girls...or maybe you don't want our beloved Harry to like them...either way, She's just as much a "character" as mad eye moody or fleur or luna. I can see why she and Harry attract each other. As far as Harry is concerned, Ginny has all the traits that made him like Cho: Quidditch player, pretty, smart, other stuff I can't remember. Ginny not only liked Harry from day one, but both give each other that personal space the other needs. I don't see how Hermione and Harry could ever have a marital relationship as Hermione is too competitive intellectually. Hermione's ego needs to excel above all others intellectually (which may be why she feels comfortable with Ron, she also puts loyalty above all, which Ron has blindly). Sure, I would have liked better relationship development, but the book was large and the point was that Harry is sacrificing the fun stuff (ginny and quidditch) to do what he feels is right. (I am sure the movie, when it comes out, will be more emotionally fulfiling in this department.) If characters seem OOC, it's part of the growing up stage. I think it extremely unrealistic to expect kids/teens to maintain certain characteristics (basic personalities, yes). This is the very time they are being molded! The more comfortable they are with a relationship/each other, the more free they feel to be snippish, or to boldly express themselves. Hermione acts like any reasonable woman who has been cut to the bone. Ron definately acts his age, and I for one loved that Harry was becoming a man, taking the inititive and making decisions instead of waiting for Hermione to make the connections for him. It's called progress/growing up....you don't really expect them to stay in 13 year old relationships forever ...right? People complained when Harry had the gall to exhibit teen angst in the last book, too. Dumbledore didn't come across much different to me, the only difference is that we actually got to know him outside the fatherly and concerned discussions at the end of the books. Imagine DD being something other than an answer machine after the woe...you mean he is something more? I love it when the books aren't what we expect...it gives us a much larger view of their world. Casmir. From jmatt at truman.edu Wed Jul 20 18:26:08 2005 From: jmatt at truman.edu (jmatt73) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:26:08 -0000 Subject: Harry as Horcrux? (was ADAIR Re: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133555 "kljohnson7868" wrote: > One of the central themes of the series is about love and > sacrifice. > It would make sense to me that, like Lily and DD before him, > Harry would sacrifice his life for "the greater good". Thus, > through the power of the love that would be necessary to do > such a thing, it would be the final destruction of Voldemort. > I don't know that Harry *has* to die, per se, but as with the > Unforgivable Curse (and the potion in the cave), there must be > the clear intention. Jenn: This is my first posting and I haven't seen this response yet, but I apologize if I missed it. I am way behind on reading the post-HBP posts. Dumbledore made it clear IMO that all the horcruxes must be destroyed before any attempt on Voldemort himself could be successful. If it is true that Harry has a horcrux on him, how could he destroy his scar/himself and then be able to destroy Voldemort? Maybe you could speculate some simultaneous exchange between Harry and LV in which LV destroys the last horcrux just as Harry destroys him. However this seems doubtful to me as I think LV would be aware of the danger he would be in if he destroyed his last horcrux in the midst of a battle. What does everyone else think? Jenn From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:04:29 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:04:29 -0000 Subject: Snape: A third possibility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133556 Zgirnius "He really has been acting as a double agent in LV's camp for DD, at considerable risk to himself. BUT, he takes a gamble in Chapter 2 and loses." Jen: "Jen's response: But I think Snape might have known what Draco's task was..." We all agree that Snape is smart; if he agreed to that part of the **Unbreakable** Vow without knowing what he was getting into, then in fact we're all wrong and Snape is really, really stupid. In our world, double agents are never trusted. Never. Doubles have a way of turning back on their defections for a variety of reasons, and often learn enough to keep their heads if they return. Someone who defected once can defect twice. Jim Ferer From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:05:59 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] COWARD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720190559.17880.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133557 --- Annette wrote: > > Now I believe that he has done the most brave and > wonderful act in > the series. He is Harry's protector, I don't know > how but I think he > has been all along. He has invested too much time > and effort into > disliking Harry yet he knows he has to help him > fulffulfill destiny. > > > Annette That is so wonderfully well put Annette. I am one of those that believe that Snape deep, deep down has turned to the good side. Sure he was a DE at one point, and from what the evenevidencews he probably had a childhood that wasn't a bed of roses (ie; being bullied and most likely from a dysfunctional family), and Snape (in my opinion) can come across as a man who can sides according to how the winds blow but I see him helping harry to the last laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Wed Jul 20 19:12:02 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:12:02 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133558 Fran (not Phlegm) wrote in message 132981: >My take is part of the Tonks we see in the book is a Polyjuiced Tonks >played by none other than Cissy! BUT I do think that Tonks was >allowing herself to be polyjuiced. The question is why? Kjirstem: I suspect Andromeda because whomever is appearing as Tonks seems sincerely sad about Sirius' death. That fits with Andromeda not Narcissa. I do wonder who is behind the imposter though, since it seems to me that Narcissa has reason to want her own spy at Hogwarts to check up on Draco and Snape. Anthyroserain wrote in message 132989 : >A decidedly bizarre thought: what if Tonks were in fact Pettigrew? >He has little to do in HBP, and her mousy appearance is mentioned >*several* times. Kjirstem: Hmmm. Could be, I don't suppose Pettigrew has much to do with Snape away at Hogwarts and Peter might be strongly affected by Sirius' death. Katherine (message 133279): >I really think that the only thing wrong with Tonks was unrequited >love. Kjirstem: I do believe that Tonks loves Lupin, I just want to make that clear. But, what I want to know is how do you rationalize her behavior in the two situations I highlighted in my original post (132970) (Tonks in the corridor by the Room of Req't and Tonks during the battle)? I have trouble reconciling this explanation with her behavior in these two places. Tonks_op > But I think that the interesting thing here, the new idea that was introduced was that one's Patronis can change. Kjirstem: I thought that was interesting too. I also thought that the interplay between Snape and Tonks when she dropped Harry off at the Hogwarts gates was interesting. Tonks would have preferred Hagrid to get the message and this is clearly the first time Snape sees Tonks' new Patronus. Tonks' " look of shock and anger" could have been due to Snapes cutting remark that her Patronus looks weak but the shock part of that makes me wonder if there is something else. Perhaps a Polyjuiced!Tonks did not realize that her Patronus was different, or that Snape would catch that fact? (Or, hopefully, I am feasting on red herring.) I was worried by Lupin's handling of Harry's question about the Patronus, he sounded like he had reservations about his answer (pg 340, US (deluxe, does it matter?)): "Lupin took his time chewing his turkey and swallowing before saying slowly, "Sometimes a great shock an emotional upheaval "" The interruptions to Lupin's reply only make me more suspicious, which is a nasty habit I seem to be picking up. I meant to add in my original post that I think Voldemort has every reason to want an additional spy in the Order, if only to check up on Snape. kjirstem - who is thinking about Tonks to avoid staying up to date on the great Snape debate. From lexac at mail.com Wed Jul 20 19:14:11 2005 From: lexac at mail.com (Lexa_C) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:14:11 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133559 Combining a couple of responses, here. Valky: > Oh I don't know about that, those of us who argued vehemently that it > was not beyond Sevvie to have killed James in the pensieve scene (and > wore quite the worst of venom that Fandom's Pro-Snapers could summon > for it) are quite vindicated now. Little Severus was quite a demented > young character, capable of the invention of quite one of the worst > most horrifying curses we've ever seen and, it would seem, the use of > it on his childhood enemies. He may have invented Sectumsempra, but teenaged revenge fantasies are one thing, actually doing it is another. We don't have an indication that Snape used it ? not even against Lupin in trying to save his own life. (Although, admittedly, being frozen in fear at the crucial moment would hamper your ability to throw curses.) Something that strikes me is the question of whether he ever used it ? I would have expected him to use it as a DE, and yet, if he'd done that, wouldn't other DEs have seen it and wanted to learn it, wouldn't victims have shown the results of it and wouldn't knowledge of it be more widespread than for Harry to stumble across it in a book and not be able to gain any idea of what it does? I'm certainly not going to argue that Severus wasn't an odd, unpleasant, possibly twisted and screwed-up kid, but he seems to be lacking *something* that would make him quite as vicious as "and, it would seem, the use of it on his childhood enemies" would make him seem. johnbowman19: > what kind of character would kill > the only person who has treated that character with nothing but > trust and friendship? The kind of character who could go undercover as a mole with the DEs and do what needed to be done to get in there and stay in there. I.e., the kind of person who will be able to do whatever needs to be done, no matter the cost, to achieve the final objective of overthrowing Voldemort. This is war against the Evil Overlord of a death cult, and it requires sacrifice, and that requires people who recognize that the mission is more important than a single person (except in the case of Harry, who's not just a single person, he *is* the mission). It requires people who have the will and the determination and the strength to *act on that*, no matter the personal cost, as long as it preserves and advances the mission. And I believe that's what Dumbledore trusts Snape to do, that's why Snape has been set as Harry's protector ? because if Snape sets his sights on protecting Harry in service of the ultimate goal of defeating Voldemort, nothing and no one is going interfere with Snape's protection of Harry, not Snape's own dislike of Harry or hatred of James, not even protecting Dumbledore, the only person who has treated Snape with trust and friendship. Snape is, in some sense, the perfect soldier ? willing to do his job at the expense of everything, anything, even his own well-being or anyone else's, including Dumbledore's. And that kind of person can be scary, and unpleasant, and obsessive, they may lack sentimentality to the point of lacking sympathy and empathy, because the things that make them the perfect soldier don't necessarily make them *likeable* - those things often make them actively unlikeable - but by god, they're going to get the job done. And that's what Dumbledore needs, and that's what he knew he had going in: Someone who would place Harry's value over Dumbledore's own, if it came down to it. Someone he could trust to make the mission the ultimate priority, even at Dumbledore's expense. Either way, Dumbledore was dead. The only question, at that point, was whether Snape was going to go down with him, and if Snape died, his mission ? to help Harry overthrow Voldemort ? would die with him, leaving Harry without the help of either Dumbledore or Snape. Frankly, the person I was most emotionally distressed for in the last 100 or so pages of the book was Snape. To be in the position of killing the single person in the entire world who believes in you? I'd be howling in pain like a wounded animal, too. JKR has made the comment, who would love Snape? And it's a comment that's treated kind of flippantly sometimes, but it makes me incredibly sad. Because if love is so terribly important, as Dumbledore tells Harry and us that it is, then to have Snape cut off from any possibility of that ... it's not funny, it's cruel. It's doubly cruel when he's had to do it to himself. > DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to kill > him like a dog in the dirt. For this, Snape is, in my book, worthy > of death at the hands of Harry. And what of Harry, himself? What of this young man who forced cup after cup of poison down the throat of a trembling, terrified, pleading old man who was in physical and emotional anguish, on his knees, on his back, groveling in the dirt on the floor a cave? What is he worthy of? -Alexa From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 19:18:23 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:18:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unbreakable vows Message-ID: <2b.7775c241.300ffd7f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133560 In a message dated 7/20/2005 10:21:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, xirene101 at cs.com writes: "wapp13" wrote: >Regarding this theory on an unbreakable vow between Snape and >Dumbledore - then there must be a third person who knows about >Snape's role since the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa had >to have a witness - Bellatrix. Therefore someone must have performed >that task if Snape and Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow. Who is >the witness?? Sue wrote: It would seem obvious that it would be an member of the Order. At the end of GOF, DD calls in Sirius and Snape and speaks with them both; could that conversation have had something to do with it? My other thought is that it was/is McGonagall (she *is* DD's Deputy HM, and a fellow Head of a House.) Sue Brief Chronicles now: I don't feel it is McG, since she herself seemed ready to accept Snape had betrayed them. I also don't think it would have been Sirius, as that's not going to do us much good in clearing Snape in the future (unless there's a portrait that can talk to us... which makes me wonder again what exactly IS the difference between a portrait and a living person, beside the fact that a living person can move around and a portrait can't). I do believe Snape has made the Vow before (see chapter 2, when he instructs Bellatrix on how to perform it properly), and I imagine it was most likely with Dumbledore. But my guess is that the Bonder is currently alive, and not one of the people we saw at the end of the book. Didn't JKR say in a recent interview ... rats, I can't find it right now... that we haven't yet met one of the Order members properly? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 19:21:34 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:21:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Beautiful Line Message-ID: <81.2c039448.300ffe3e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133561 In a message dated 7/20/2005 11:02:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bhauersperger at hotmail.com writes: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowena_grunnionffitch" wrote: > Wasn't "I'm not worried, Harry. I'm with you." just about the > most beautiful thing a mentor could ever say to a pupil? I so agree. Every time that I recall that line, or think about Dumbledore appearing to plead for his life (which I don't believe that Ablus Dumbledore ever would!) still gives me a pit in my stomach. Brief Chronicles now: I cried from this line on. *blush* It's my favorite line of the whole book. There's something so touching and horribly sad about the protector feeling safe near the person he's been protecting. Like the moment you realize you've grown up enough to take care of your parents, but at the same time you're also grown up enough to know you can't take care of every problem they may have. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:21:40 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:21:40 -0000 Subject: Women in HBP (was: Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133562 Sienna wrote: > The part where the author really lost me was when Ginny snaps at > Hermione and tells her not to embarrass herself. For me it was too > much about how an attractive girl (who fits into and understands a > mans world - ie quidditch) is more desireable and worthy than an > intelligent girl who lacks in social graces and physical beauty. I > couldn't believe the author could so callously send such a message > (to girls who might be brainy like Hermione but lack Ginny's social > graces) just so that she could kill the shipping wars. I was utterly > appalled. I lost all liking for Ginny right then and there and I felt > like smacking Harry upside the head. > > In fact the anti-feminist undertones in the Ginny v's Hermione > characterisations require some discussion. Whereas Ginny is rewarded > and placed on a pedastal for her desireability, Hermione is subtly > mocked. Her thirst for knowledge, while admired on the surface are > characterised as insecurity and teased. Her book-smarts do not avail > her of respect in HBP but rather of subtle scorn. Despite all she has > done for him, Harry is pleased when Ginny puts her in her place. > There is much more that could be said about the message this sends to > kids. Essentially, I went away feeling like Ginny had been turned > into a sort of trophy worthy of a hero, with all the trappings that > entailed, while Hermione was brought down a peg so that Ginny could > shine. anthyroserain: Sienna, you've hit on something that's bothered me a lot, too. JKR's representations of women in HBP seem to be frighteningly conservative, particularly when compared with her previous books. You've done an excellent job of analyzing the depiction of Ginny vs. Hermione in physical beauty and personality characteristics, so I thought I would add a few more examples from HBP. In addition to your previous examples, there's Fleur, another conventionally gorgeous girl. I thought the moment at the end where she said that she would never abandon Bill was sweet, but I can't help but think that we would *never* see the reverse, gender-wise. I thought it would have taken far more courage and been more interesting on JKR's part if Fleur was the one whose looks were destroyed by a werewolf attack, yet Bill still chose to stick with her. After all, who thought Fleur was interested in Bill for his looks? And Tonks. Oh, I don't even want to get into this, as I still think Lupin was coded as gay (yes, I'm one of THOSE people) but I was really bothered by her depiction in HBP. In OOTP, though we don't see her all that much, we have one of the coolest, most nontraditional women in the series: she has a sense of humor, she kicks ass, she's clumsy and not conventionally pretty, and she radiates independence. In HBP, she's transformed into the Pining Woman archetype. At first, I thought JKR was making a rather profound and lovely comment about grief: that, as Tonks was deeply affected by her beloved cousin's death, Harry might realize that sometimes other people feel the same sorrow and grief that you do, even though you never knew how much the other person affected them. But no, she was just in love the entire time, and it interfered with her abilities. Then there's Merope-- the rare case in HP of a non-pretty woman attracted to a beautiful man. But Merope pines too, and Dumbledore states, "Of course, it is also possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers; that can happen." But does it ever happen to *men*? The idea that a woman's desires get in the way of her professional abilities is an old, decidedly anti-feminist one. Surely JKR doesn't mean to suggest this, so why are her examples all female? On another, related topic: I'm quite used by now to JKR using physical characteristics as a signal of inner characteristics, which is something that has always disturbed me very much. Unattractive (not just not pretty) people in HP almost invariably possess mainly negative characteristics. (On the other hand, sometimes she does include beautiful evil people, like Tom Riddle and Bellatrix.) Fat people in HP are always greedy and self-indulgent-- this stereotype has been going on unchanged since the first book. I hope this is simply shorthand and lazy writing on JKR's part, not what she actually believes. This is actually my biggest complaint about the series. I love the Harry Potter books, and I love JKR's writing, and I am constantly amazed with the books. It's just a niggling thing that has always bothered me. And as far as representations of women go, up until HBP, I thought JKR's depictions were quite progressive and feminist. - anthyroserain From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:24:56 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:24:56 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133563 Thoughts about similarities and differences between Lily and Dumbledore and Avada Kedavra. This may be a bunch of gibberish so let me know. Forgive me if this particular issue has been addressed and please direct me to the correct thread if it has. I can't keep up with all the posts! Canon: 1. Lily and Dumbledore both had AK used against them. 2. Lily willingly let herself be killed by the curse. 3. Dumbledore died as a result of the curse (details unknown). Consider Lily Evans: Possibility 1: Lily did not have to perform any sort of magic or charm to protect Harry. The mere act of choosing to die by AK triggers the spell to backfire on the caster when they try to kill the next (or intended) victim. LV did not die because of the horcruxes. (Rebound automatic because of the previous victim's choice.) Possibility 2: Lily did have to perform some ancient magic for the rebound to occur. This protecting magic/charm may have been "sealed" by her choosing to die by AK. The rebound on the caster (LV) was because of the magic, not just by her choice. May or may not establish a horcrux. (Horcrux being the scar because no one else killed by AK had a scar...it was surviving the AK and being marked by a curse.) Consider Dumbledore: Possibility 1: Snape really is a Death Eater. He intentionally killed Dumbledore with AK. As far as we know, Dumbledore did not choose to die (like Lily) but died like everyone else who was ever hit with AK, thus no rebound on the caster (Snape) regardless who he tries to AK next. Possibility 2: Snape really is on the side of Dumbledore and the killing was planned by the two of them. Even though DD chose to die, Snape will not receive a rebound because DD may not have been sacrificing himself FOR anyone else in particular (as the case with Lily and Harry). So, Snape may never experience a rebound of the AK as did LV at Godric's Hollow. Possibility 3: Snape really is on the side of Dumbledore and had agreed to kill DD. However, DD was not killed by the AK because Snape could not muster up enough intention to kill him. Rather, DD was killed by the fall from the tower. The AK was enough to knock him over the ledge but not enough to kill him. Either way, I don't see Snape as being in danger of having the AK rebound on him like LV did. What do the rest of you think? Julie From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 20 19:27:26 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:27:26 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133564 Brothergib wrote: > Interesting to note (if it hasn't been already) that Gandalf > was thought to have been killed off in LOTR but was reborn. > Perhaps we will see the same thing with Dumbledore? > > Personally, I don't think so, but worth making the point! JKR made it very clear years ago that in her world the dead stay dead. However, I have no doubt we'll see more of Dumbledore in book 7 - through his portrait, or some conveniently hidden letters that will be handed out to Harry... Salit From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:29:17 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:29:17 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133565 John: > > DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to kill > > him like a dog in the dirt. For this, Snape is, in my book, worthy > > of death at the hands of Harry. Alexa: > And what of Harry, himself? What of this young man who forced cup > after cup of poison down the throat of a trembling, terrified, > pleading old man who was in physical and emotional anguish, on his > knees, on his back, groveling in the dirt on the floor a cave? > > What is he worthy of? Alla: The difference between Snape and Harry situation is that we KNOW that Dumbledore ordered Harry to force feed him the potion. We don't KNOW whether Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, it is just a theory. For now, I am very much doubting that Dumbledore could order anyone to do the killing. Another big difference is that Harry is doing his best to save Dumbledore, contrary to Snape to kills him with hatred on his face. So, what is Harry worth of in my mind ? That would be deepest sympathy I am also doubting "Snape as a deep mole theory" for the simple reason that there is nobody whom Snape could give his reports to, since ( finally) all Order of Phoenix is on the same page as Harry is as to Snape. Just me of course, Alla. From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:31:16 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:31:16 -0000 Subject: "The Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133566 Prof. Mori wrote: > > Anyone intrigued by this reading? Not just the obvious "Severus", but other symbolisms > (Lions) and names (Albinus) seem to leap off the page. I'd be interested in another > perspective. That Rowling, she's just sneaky enough to have planted > clues like this from all sorts of classical references... Princess Sara wrote: > I have that passage highlighted in my copy of The Prince! :o) And I would not be at all > surprised to find out she had indeed read Machiavelli...Machiavelli also mentions an evil > "Lucius" quite a bit. ;o) anthyroserain: This is a wonderful comment and connection, and I'm surprised more people aren't discussing it, because it's become TREMENDOUSLY relevant now that we've discovered that the Half-Blood Prince is Snape. Someone asked if the title just signified that "Prince" was Snape's mom's maiden name. I think it's much more than that, and I think this is it. The Prince isn't just Snape's name, it's who he is: he's Machiavelli's Prince as exemplified by Severus. I think this gives us great insight into his motives and personality. I'm of the opinion that Snape is definitely on the good side, and a decent person deep down, but that doesn't mean he's not ambitious and self-serving as well... - anthyroserain who notes that Irma Pince is an anagram for "I am Prince" From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jul 20 19:32:36 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:32:36 -0000 Subject: Comments on Comments-NO SNAPE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > This post covers comments on Fleur, Ginny, Harry, Weasleys, OOC, > Hermione, Dumbledore, and Ron. NO SNAPE THEORIES > > Several have stated how bothersome it was to read about how the > Weasley's, particularly Ginny and Molly, treated Fleur. I can see > your argument, from being on the outside looking in. I can only say > that until you've met someone like Fleur in real life (and I mean > like her, not "kind of" like her), then maybe you can't understand > what's taking place at the Weasley's when Fleur is there. > Or if you've been forced to live with someone like Fleur *cough* college roommate freshman year *cough*. I spend most of my freshman year listening to how "in Italy they" do X, Y, Z like A, B, C. It's a type of casual arrogance and non-concern that Fleur-type people show that's sometimes mistaken for "old world charm". > > I personally feel the Weasly's showed GREAT patience. It wasn't > until they could come together over their love for Bill that they > found a common ground to build upon. It wasn't until I saw Fleur > have this sort of Fortitude that I even starting to like her...a > little. (I'm amazed she's able to love someone other than herself > and would love to know what exactly her and Bill's relationship is > based on...what attracts/motivates it). > I also have a suspicion that the Weasley's didn't think that Fleur truly loved Bill. > Ginny is an independant gal who likes her personal space. Maybe you > don't like these kinds of girls...or maybe you don't want our beloved > Harry to like them...either way, She's just as much a "character" as > mad eye moody or fleur or luna. I can see why she and Harry attract > each other. Ginny has been given a really bad, bad, bad rap here in this group-- even when I was very active here 3 years ago. Most of it stems from Ginny's portrayal in PS/SS and CoS. Ginny, when we meet her is 10 years old, her part in the story is really nothing but background to Ron's family life and she's portrayed in that way---whiny, spoiled baby sister with nothing really significant to contribute to the story. In CoS, Ginny is a year older and has a crush on Harry. She can't talk to him most likely out of shyness. And this is where all the anti-Ginny feelings stem: Ginny has no obvious characteristics that would be attractive to Harry because she's not attractive to "us". It's unfortunate that Ginny's attempt to resist Tom Riddle came too late, but hey, at least she tried. > As far as Harry is concerned, Ginny has all the traits > that made him like Cho: Quidditch player, pretty, smart, other stuff > I can't remember. Also, Harry and Ginny are the only ones to come face to face with Voldemort (as Tom Riddle, but still) and live. That's something she shares with Harry that Ron and Hermione don't. > If characters seem OOC, it's part of the growing up stage. I think > it extremely unrealistic to expect kids/teens to maintain certain > characteristics (basic personalities, yes). This is the very time > they are being molded! The more comfortable they are with a > relationship/each other, the more free they feel to be snippish, or > to boldly express themselves. Hermione acts like any reasonable > woman who has been cut to the bone. Ron definately acts his age, and > I for one loved that Harry was becoming a man, taking the inititive > and making decisions instead of waiting for Hermione to make the > connections for him. It's called progress/growing up....you don't > really expect them to stay in 13 year old relationships > forever ...right? People complained when Harry had the gall to > exhibit teen angst in the last book, too. > Exactly, the HP series is about Harry growing up, his coming of age. If Rowling were to stunt Harry's character, it would be contrary to the purpose of the series. OoP and HBP are the first books in which the characters act their age. > Dumbledore didn't come across much different to me, the only > difference is that we actually got to know him outside the fatherly > and concerned discussions at the end of the books. Imagine DD being > something other than an answer machine after the woe...you mean he is > something more? > What's marvelous about the HP series is that the books are written to suit that year of a Hogwarts student. In other words, as the years go by and the characters mature, the point of view changes to match that maturity. No longer are adults undeniably wise and know everything. They become more human and their faults and weaknesses are more readily seen. If we honestly reflect in our own life experiences, I'm sure we can see that at some point when we realized that the adults in our lives didn't know it all and did make mistakes and bad choices. IMO, Dumbledore in OoP and HBP was the "real" Dumbledore: a man who makes mistakes, has pride and all the flaws of every other person in this world. And as I've written in other messages, I think it's brilliant that Rowling was convince her readers that Dumbledore was infallable, when she's dropped so many clues in the previous books that he's not. Milz From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Jul 20 19:33:39 2005 From: fourfuries at aol.com (four4furies) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:33:39 -0000 Subject: Snape Haters Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133568 I haven't posted since just after 9/11/01, when the question of how to deal with people who are just plain evil came up in earnest. Now that what has happened has happeened, I have to comment on they way people are dealing with this evil. If you read the few excerpts available from the most recent interviews, it becomes patently obvious that Snape is evil. There is no way in the world for him to settle up with Harry. In fact, JKR says that it is now as personal between them as it is between Harry and Lord Thingy, if not more so. DD admits that he was wrong to believe Snape could put aside his hatred for James and Sirius. JKR also points out that big brained DD does make mistakes. This is a colossal one. He trusted Snape's excuse in the hope of getting a spy, believing that DD's own Leglimens abilities were sufficient to protect him from deception, and his Occlumency enough to guard against unwanted disclosure. Wrong again. Finally, a word about evil. Good people have trrouble recognizing it, and more trouble accepting it. Talk to a cop, or a prosecutor or a corrections officer and see who they think is the bad guy. They can accept that some seemingly normal people are evil, because they see them. By book 7, we will all see. MAF From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:38:55 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:38:55 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133569 Now that Dumbledore is dead, the magic that protected from Harry at the Dursley's is lost. (Once Dumbledore died, "Harry realized he could move again" HBP US. page 597). LV probably would know this. Harry has an established pattern of returning to the Dursley's at the end of the school year. What better place to attack him? In their grief and shock, other wizards may not think of this. Even if they realized this and warned him, Harry probably would return out of a sense of obligation to Dumbledore. ("I'm going back to the Dursleys' once more, because Dumbledore wanted me to," said Harry. HBP US. page 650). We know Ron and Hermione will be there as well ("We'll be there, Harry," said Ron. "What?" "At your aunt and uncle's house," said Ron. HBP US page 651). What better place to attack Harry than at the Dursleys at the beginning of Book 7? And what better time for someone (Petunia?) to use magic late in life? I would be surprised if his visit to the Dursleys' was event-free. Julie From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jul 20 19:39:12 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (joj) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:39:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 7 timeline References: Message-ID: <007501c58d62$b47f4c00$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> No: HPFGUIDX 133570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joj" wrote: > I thought it was interesting that book 6 didn't end as the previous > 5 had, Harry getting picked up by the Dursleys at the train > station. It made me wonder... > > Will book 7 start there? JKR has said that we should think of Book 6 and Book 7 more like a 2 part book. Also, we learned in Book 5 that Harry must spend some time with the Dursleys every year for the magicial protection it offers, and this is reiterated at the beginning of Book 6. jujube Yes, I know. What I meant was, will the book start with The Dursley's picking Harry up, and things going differently than they usually do, rather than the story picking up with Harry already having been with the Dursleys for several weeks? I just think book seven is going to break all the traditions we normally see. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 20 19:42:17 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:42:17 -0000 Subject: Book 7 timeline In-Reply-To: <003d01c58d59$19787e60$973ecc45@bumbargey3ogmz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joj" wrote: > I thought it was interesting that book 6 didn't end as the previous 5 had, Harry getting picked up by the Dursleys at the train station. It would not have contributed anything to the plot at that point - the only reason we always see the return trip is to add a small new twist (e.g. Pigwidgon, Percy's romance,OoP confrontation with the Dursleys,...) - there isn't anything to add here, methink. > Will book 7 start there? What will Harry be doing to prepare while he's at Privit Drive ? (I can't believe he didn't question Petunia about her knowlede of the wizarding world!) I have no doubt that book 7 will spend some time at the Dursleys (though perhaps not right in the first chapter). We need to see the conclusion of that relationship and also the expected crisis to come when Harry's protection there ends as he turns 17. I would not be surprised if he is even attacked there on his birthday. > How much time will pass in book 7? If Harry doesn't attend school, and I don't believe he will, (hopefully he'll go there but not attend regular school) does the book have to follow the same timeline? I believe that Harry will attend Hogwarts. All the hints in the books suggest the final confrontation with Voldemort must happen there. Somehow I would not be surprised if we even find a Voldemort in disguise teaching the DADA class. He obviously wanted strongly to teach it, and I doubt he had the noble goal of improving the students state of knowledge in mind. There is something he wants or needs very strongly that can only be done at Hogwarts - Chamber of Secrets, artifacts in DD's office, Room of Requirement, something... not to mention free access to Harry. I think Voldemort will try to study Harry much more closely than he has in the past to figure out how to defeat him (much like Harry and DD did in HBP). > Does it have to end in the spring? Harry sure has alot to do in that time. Look how long it's taken to destroy 2 horcruxes. Harry has to destroy 4 and then kill Voldemort. That part confused me - Voldemort's body is also a Horcrux. It was destroyed in the original attack on Harry. Would not that leave him one Horcrux short to begin with? Salit From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 18:53:46 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:53:46 -0000 Subject: OWLs - still don't add up Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133572 I appreciate how minor this is in light of the more earthshaking events and revelations in HBP (the best book yet, by the way, in my view; and I for one think the ships were beautifully done and very consistent with the foreshadowing in the prior books), but I still can't get Hermione's OWLs to add up. We are told she got 11 OWLs, but she was only taking 10 classes - no? She was taking the same ones as Harry and Ron, as confirmed by their OWL test report, which were 9, minus Divination, makes 8, plus Ancient Runes and Arithmancy which makes 10. So how could she get 11 OWLS? The theory that some subjects resulted in more than one OWL seems shot. I suppose it is possible Hermione took an OWL exam in a subject she was not taking at school (for example, she could obviously get an O OWL in Muggle Studies without taking the Hogwarts course) but it seems odd this would not have been mentioned! Further, even allowing Hermione her 11 OWLs, we still don't know how the legendary students of the past (Bill Weasley, that boy who was selling study aids in OOP, etc.) ever managed 12 OWLs, without use of Time Turners. Anyone? Rolshan From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:50:55 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:50:55 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable vows In-Reply-To: <2b.7775c241.300ffd7f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133573 > Brief Chronicles wrote: > I don't feel it is McG, since she herself seemed ready to accept Snape had > betrayed them. I also don't think it would have been Sirius, as that's not > going to do us much good in clearing Snape in the future zgirnius responds: I like the Snape/DD UV theory a lot. It is a nice explanation for why DD trusts Snape so much. But I think it matters very much what the exact wording of the vow was. For example, suppose Snape swore, "I will never reveal the secrets of the Order to Voldemort or his followers without specific instructions from the Order", "I will never again serve Voldemort" (actually, this one has to be carefully phrased...wouldn't want our double-agent dropping dead after handing LV a drink or something...) and "I will do all I can to keep Harry safe and help Harry defeat Voldemort." Note that the above is (one) reasonable set of vows to make under the circumstances, but it in no way precludes the killing of DD, *without* DD's consent, so long as it is not at the order of Voldemort. If there was no Snape/DD plan for Snape to kill DD, Snape still has an obvious, non-DE motive. He kills DD simply to save his own life (Draco has now failed...the UV to Cissy kicks in.) McGonagall, or any hypothetical other living Binder, is as upset as anyone over the turn of events. And probably busily trying to figure out what at all means about Snape's intentions/motivations...in particular, in this scenario, Snape can't exactly be "cleared". He did kill Dumbledore. But, he may still be of use to the Order and Harry, becasue he is still bound by his vow. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 20 20:02:31 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:02:31 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133574 > > Jen: First, I don't understand how if ESE!Lupin isn't confirmed in > Book 7 it would still be true. If JKR never follows that particular > storyline, it might be plausible given the information in the books, > but it would never be canon. Pippin: I was trying to say that ESE!Lupin can't be proven until Book Seven, but I am 99% confident that it will be. If there isn't unmistakable canon that Lupin has been involved with Voldemort by then, I agree, there never will be, and the theory will stand disproved. Jen: > And Book 6 generates more hurdles than support for ESE!Lupin, from what I read. The introduction of Fenrir as the werewolf Death Eater is in opposition to Lupin in canon. A man who was bitten and chose to turn his trauma into a life of evil actions. Pippin: But Fenrir is just what we'd expect an evil werewolf to be like, and Jo's villains are seldom so obvious. Anyway, does Fenrir strike you as someone who was tempted into serving Voldemort by the promise of rights and freedom? We haven't seen anyone who joined Voldemort for that reason, yet Lupin and Dumbledore both say it's a danger. Jen: > Whereas Lupin, despite his traumatic childhood and lifetime curse, > continues to choose a life of humanity---having friendships, teaching others, furthering a cause and, the big leap in this book, allowing himself to be vulnerable through intimate love with another person. > > And most of the other werewolves Remus is living amongst have also > chosen Voldemort's side over the WW! He calls him 'his equals' but > then 'sounded a little bitter'--this isn't work he enjoys or perhaps even feels is productive. He understands why a person living on the 'margins of society' might choose to side with Voldemort, even if he himself hasn't made that choice. He knows it will be very hard to persuade them otherwise. > To find out Lupin is acting like all the rest of the werewolves in > Potterverse would be a bit ho-hum. Pippin: I think it's a dangerous assumption that most of the werewolves are on Voldemort's side because they're like Fenrir. They could be on his side because they're like Lupin -- I mean, all they want is a chance to live normal lives and it's just what the WW won't give them. Jen: It's much more interesting to trace why he *didn't* chose the path the others did, and I very much think DD allowing him to attend Hogwarts, and his friendship with the Marauders, very much influenced Lupin's later choices as outlined above. Pippin: I can't say I think much of Lupin's choices. We know he took dreadful advantage of Dumbledore's trust, let himself be led through the village in wolf form, knew it was wrong, and yet allowed it to continue because he couldn't stand up to his friends. He tells us himself he hasn't changed. He tells us he believed Sirius was a dark wizard, knew how he might be getting into the castle, and kept silent. The events in HBP cast a dire light on backward. An odd way to show your gratitude towards Dumbledore, letting a man who might want to assasssinate him have access to the castle. I guess it's a compliment to Jo's talent that she can lay down so much evidence in plain sight and persuade people to ignore it all. Pippin amused From imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:07:09 2005 From: imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com (imthruthelookinglass) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:07:09 -0000 Subject: Questions about the potion's book & Snape is innocent thoughts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133575 Milz: > If Snape knew of this attack and he really is a DE, then he would > have taken the appropriate measures to store his belongings elsewhere > in anticipation of his defection. imthruthelookinglass now: He could also have left proof of his agreement with Dumbledore stored inside the Pensieve as proof of his actions as a request of Dumbledore and his loyalty to OOTP. However, this information could also fall into the hands of the DE. So it is a question as to whether or not he would take the risk. From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:00:14 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:00:14 -0000 Subject: Snape Haters Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133576 fourfuries at a... wrote: >if you read the few excerpts available from the most recent > interviews, it becomes patently obvious that Snape is evil. There > is no way in the world for him to settle up with Harry. In fact, > JKR says that it is now as personal between them as it is between > Harry and Lord Thingy, if not more so. That is definitely true from Harry's point of view. We know that from the book. There is no need to interview the author to find that out. But Harry doesn't know everything. And let me ask this: Does anyone seriously believe that Dumbledore would have survived the potion he drank? I think his chances of survival were exactly zero. By doing what he did, Snape prevented Draco from taking the credit for Dumbledore's death and he prevented Harry from taking the blame for it. And he kept his unbreakable vow. Any outcome other than what have occured would have been even more disastrous. Fortunately Snape is cold-blooded enough to follow through with it, just as Harry was cold blooded enough in the cave. Snipsnapsnur From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:07:12 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:12 -0000 Subject: Snape as Judas - Hanged Man? In-Reply-To: <20050720185510.51140.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133577 rochesteruponmedway /Silvia wrote: > > > I believe there are some branches of the Christian > > church who believe > > that Judas should receive some honour, since without > > his betrayal, > > there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore > > no salvation. > > I havent realy worked this out properly, but wonder > > if Snape is somehow > > playing Judas to Dumbledore's Christ. > > > >laurie wrote back: that is a very good point sylvia-but if Snape is > really a Judas then is He a Judas to Lord V or > Dumbledore? In my mind it can work two ways here. In > some respects not only did He betray DD but he also > betray LV so to speak he is a Judas on both sides. The > intresting thing will be how will he redeem himself. > **Marcela now: Don't forget that Judas Escariot hanged himself after he got paid the 30 silver coins for his betrayal... Didn't Snape "invent" that upside-down curse that makes the hexed person hang down from an ankle? For those interested in the Tarot cards, there's your Hanged Man one. Marcela From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 20:07:41 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:07:41 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133578 drjuliehoward at y... wrote: > Now that Dumbledore is dead, the magic that protected from Harry at > the Dursley's is lost. (Once Dumbledore died, "Harry realized he > could move again" HBP US. page 597). LV probably would know this. > Harry has an established pattern of returning to the Dursley's at the end of the school year. What better place to attack him? jozoed now: I think there is a distinct difference between the two spells that Dumbledore cast. The one binding Harry at the end of HBP needed Dumbledore to be 'holding' the spell, and therefore holding Harry. Once Dumbledore died, so did his concentration on the spell. Much like when someone is summoning a broomstick with 'accio'. If you lose concentration, the broomstick won't get to you. However, the protection spell that Dumbledore placed on the Dursleys was a much deeper magic, based on blood ties and love. It was a permanent spell with a definite 'expiry date'- a.k.a. when Harry turns 17. The spell had already been cast- where as the binding charm on Harry was in the process of being cast. At least that's my take on it! jozoed From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:11:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:11:10 -0000 Subject: Snape Haters Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133579 > fourfuries at a... wrote: > >if you read the few excerpts available from the most recent > > interviews, it becomes patently obvious that Snape is evil. There > > is no way in the world for him to settle up with Harry. In fact, > > JKR says that it is now as personal between them as it is between > > Harry and Lord Thingy, if not more so. > Snipsnapsnur: > But Harry doesn't know everything. And let me ask this: Does anyone > seriously believe that Dumbledore would have survived the potion he > drank? I think his chances of survival were exactly zero. Alla: Erm... I do believe that Dumbledore could have survived. I asked this question, but I will ask it again. Does he strike to you in a scene with Draco as " dying man talking"? Not to me, he is making plans for Draco, which HE himself intends to implement. After he takes an antidote from dear Snape, IMO. This is a BIG question. Why Dumbledore called for Snape to ask for antidote or to beg to be killed? I tend to believe the first reason, personally. I am also among those who wishes Snape to be dead in book 7 and t he only reason I don't want him to be ESE would be to prove Dumbledore's right. It is too painful for me to think that he died with the last thought of being betrayed by the person whom he trusted so much. But as JKR said yesterday - Dumbledore makes mistakes. JMO, Alla. From kethlenda at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:14:08 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:14:08 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133580 OK, so could someone make some sense of this for me? When Draco is explaining the use of the Vanishing Cabinet in HBP, he talks about how his classmate Montague got stuck in it, heard snatches of sounds from both Hogwarts and Borgin and Burke's, and eventually had to Apparate to get out of the cabinet, nearly dying in the process. (Though whether his death would have resulted from incompetent Apparition or just from starving in the cabinet, I'm not sure.) Now, as Hermione well knows, you can't apparate in Hogwarts except during the one scene where they relaxed that rule so that the students could practice in the Great Hall. So clearly Montague must have Apparated out into Borgin and Burkes. But I went back and checked this plot point on OotP, because I was curious about whether Rowling had foreshadowed it without my noticing. According to OotP, Montague was pushed into the cabinet by Fred and George, and turned up several days later stuck in a toilet at Hogwarts. Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and then in his near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a toilet, and pretended not to remember how he got there--just to conceal the passage to Borgin's? This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me wonder whether this is a Flint. Kelly L. From lexac at mail.com Wed Jul 20 20:15:36 2005 From: lexac at mail.com (Lexa_C) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:15:36 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133581 Alla: > The difference between Snape and Harry situation is that we KNOW that > Dumbledore ordered Harry to force feed him the potion. We don't KNOW > whether Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, it is just a theory. Precisely. The difference between Snape's situation and Harry's situation is that we know the context of Harry's, we have the background for what is going on, and those mitigating circumstances allows us to view what would otherwise be a horrific tableau with pity and sympathy rather than anger and hate. My point is, we *don't know* all the background of Dumbledore's death or Snape's situation, so we can't say with certainty that Snape is evil or deserving of hate. And to make a blanket pronouncement of such seems, to me, to be jumping the gun. > For now, I am very much doubting that Dumbledore could order anyone > to do the killing. And I'm not suggesting that Dumbledore actually ordered Snape to *kill* him. It might have even been an unexpected outcome, at this particular point. I am suggesting that Dumbledore both told Snape that Harry's protection/Voldemort's defeat was paramount and knew that Snape would do what had to be done to achieve that, no matter the cost. Which means Dumbledore's death was a possibility, but that's different from "Kill me, Severus! Kill me now!" But I highly, highly doubt that in his long years of fighting Voldemort, Dumbledore has never ordered anyone to do anything that didn't ultimately cause death, either their own or someone else's. > Another big difference is that Harry is doing his best to save > Dumbledore, contrary to Snape to kills him with hatred on his face. Harry is described as feeling "hatred" for himself and being "repulsed" by what he is doing in the scene in the cave. I expect that would have shown on his face to any observers, if there had been any - and particularly if they had the kind of existing prejudice about Harry that Harry has about Snape, his expression could well have been misinterpreted as showing his feelings about Dumbledore, rather than about what he was being forced - by Dumbledore, because of their prior agreement, against what appeared to be Dumbledore's current wishes - to do. We have no outside description of what Harry looks like during the scene in the cave; we have no Snape POV during the scene on the Tower. Nevertheless, the scenes are *strikingly* paralleled, as has already been pointed out - to the point of using some of the same words to describe what Harry feels and the emotions Snape displays. I have a hard time believing there's not a reason for that. > I am also doubting "Snape as a deep mole theory" for the simple > reason that there is nobody whom Snape could give his reports to, > since ( finally) all Order of Phoenix is on the same page as Harry is > as to Snape. Snape's a clever man - I wouldn't find it unbelievable that he could find some way to pass information anonymously. Also, there's all the possibilities of internal sabotage that are open to him as part of Voldemort's machine. It's not like Snape would be the first deep- cover agent in history. Plus, as someone already pointed out, Snape's best use, at this point, is as a timebomb sitting practically in Voldemort's lap, waiting to go off until just the moment when it will help Harry the most. -Alexa From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 20 20:17:23 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:17:23 +0200 Subject: harry's patronus Message-ID: <00ff01c58d68$0b56a4b0$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 133582 I've been thinkin a lot about Tonks and her new patronus. I don't think that Snape's remark about Tonk's new patronus was there only as a hint about Tonk and Lupin SHIP, I think this information about patronuses adopting a new form will be relevant later on which makes me think that Harry's patronus might change and become a Phoenix. He declares himself Dumbledore's man through and through several times, he certainly loves the old man and DD loved him, so perhaps DD's patronus will become his new patronus. What do you think? Cheers Fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:17:22 2005 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:17:22 -0000 Subject: More jumbled thoughts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RhianynTheCat at a... wrote: > And did anyone else notice that Hagrid was the only one to handle > Dumbledore's body? And that we never actually see the body at the funeral? That reminds me of Dumbledore's quote VERY early on: "I would trust Hagrid with my life." Thoughts? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > I don't know that [Dumbledore] planned for it as much as he prepared for it, there's > a difference. He knew Snape had make the unbreakable vow and that > in order to give the continued impression that Snape is a LV supporter, it > might come down to Snape going the ultimate distance and killing DD. What use is Snape now as a spy? What good does it do anyone for LV and the DEs to think Snape is the Death Eatingest guy ever? Even if he could find out where all the horcruxes are, LV's bank account number, and where the DEs keep their stash of firewhisky...WHO would listen to him, let alone refrain from AKing him on the spot? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: > The Horcrux could actually be a part of Harry -- his scar. That would > account for his ability to speak Parseltongue and the pain of the > scar. Why MUST the Parseltongue and the scar pain be a function of Harry being a horcrux? More as I think of them! -Joe in SoFla P.S. OMG, the volume is impossible to keep up with! If I walk away from my desk for a few minutes, I automatically have an ADDITIONAL 75 posts to wade through, let alone the ones I was already behind. From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 19:29:00 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:29:00 -0000 Subject: ESE Snape and DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133584 bbkkyy55 wrote: > Sorry if this has been noticed, but... I'm a ESE Snape fan and am > rereading. When Hagrid is talking about the argument he overheard > between Snape and DD he says: > > "Well_ I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted > an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore-" > > > Notice the word ANYMORE. DD was asking Snape to do something Snape > had done before. Snape had never offed DD before. They must have > been talking about Snape's spywork or something. DD wanted Snape to > make investigations in the Slytherin House to see where the cursed > necklace and poisened mead may have come from. > > Sorry fans, but IMHO Snape is rotten to the core. > Janeway: I'm with you... this was definitely a betrayal. DD may have had a plan, but IMO it wasn't for Snape to kill him. (Of course, this sets Snape up in book 7 for a big bangy redemption when he looks into Harry's eyes and sees Lilly looking back.... but that's another post.) What do we know that Snape is "doing" that he might not want to do anymore? He is purportedly spying on LV. He is keeping watch over Malfoy. He is (or has been) providing treatment for DD after his mission(s) to destroy horcrux(es). He may be participating in some other way in a plan of DD's (such as helping to find the Horcruxes, or requiring SS to kill DD). He is acting as head of Slytherin. He is teaching DADA. It could be any of these things. (Any other's I've missed?) My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach DADA. DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to one year. Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he is beginning to realize that things are not going well for him. (He has taken the unbreakable vow, now he's realizing he isn't able to control Malfoy as he thought he would... he may have to reveal his true loyalties and kill DD himself). So now he's trying to back out, and DD won't let him. Just my two knuts :-) Janeway From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 19:29:07 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:29:07 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133585 zoe0coll wrote: > Just wondered if any of you have actually been 16/17! Or have > you just forgotten! > > I just feel JKR is writing with a knowledge or rememberance of what > it's like to be that age and I felt transported back to my teenage > years and felt like I was right there with them. I was having a similar reaction to many of the comments that I saw. I'm 28 now, but only stopped being a teenager a year or two ago. ;) Let me start by saying that though I sway back and forth on this, I'm skeptical of the ships we saw in HBP. Something was up. I believe that people have to evaluate the main characters of the books as children and then young adults even though they are special cases of such. These are not full-grown adults projected into small bodies. Harry showed areas of immaturity in OotP, at the same time proving he could lead those seemingly more mature than himself. Harry excels at what he has to do to survive, but because of growing up with the Dursley's is stunted in dealing with other people. Being subjected to Dudley's and Vernon's bullying has made him extra defiant and tough, which has ironically saved his life. He's also the type that can have a bad childhood and grow up to be a happy person because of his innate inner strength. Harry has enormous pressures put on him in the shape of the tasks he is required to perform/survive. Otherwise, you have to think of him as a normal kid. Hermione probably realized she was different from an early age and turned to books for comfort when she couldn't find the right friends. Her self-esteem is tied to her achievement in her studies. Her determination to achieve academically has put her behind the curve socially. Her bravery and loyalty (She'd otherwise be Ravenclaw) align her with Harry. Harry's need for her support is a big responsibility, but otherwise, she's a normal kid. Ron is... good at wizard chess. Ok, not my favorite character. Again, Griffindor House, so loyal. Not as brave as I might like, but he's got Harry's back anyway and is often in unusual danger because of it. Ron is poor and the youngest boy of a large family, leading to his outsider status and immaturity. He may have a case of wizard ADD, but otherwise, he's a normal kid. I've met people like this in my life, even grouped together, and they read as reasonably real in JKR's books. My point is, the dire focus of the stories often misleads you about the true maturity of these people because they behave somewhat more adult-like under stress. These kids are still kids, though, and finally discovering their sexuality. (later than I might have though, given the amount of unfettered access to friends of the opposite gender). These are the reasons I find myself apologizing for the other side: 1) Harry's attraction to Ginny - Maybe it seemed sudden, but not altogether impossible. **Reasons it was slow** -Harry is a year older than Ginny, so an attraction at an earlier age would have been less likely. -Ginny was infatuated with Harry, so that would have biased him against the attraction. -Harry and Ginny didn't hang out at Hogwarts, so their relationship really only develops in the short spurts they spend at the Burrow and finally at DA meetings. -While at the Burrow, Ginny had to compete for Harry's attention not only with Ron, but with the closer and much more mature Hermione. **Reasons the attraction pulled into high gear** -Ginny was there at the MoM standing with Harry against the Death Eaters. That goes a long way toward proving she is one of Harry's peers -Have you ever seen what happens around the time a girl turns 15? She may have been cute before, but now she's nearly a woman and more likely to awaken certain beasts within Harry. -Ginny's string of relationships and showdown with Ron underscore her womanhood. -Team sports - quidditch brought them closer. It really has a lot to do with their age. Comparing Ginny to Lily is baffling, but the sudden fling is really plausible. 2) Hermione OOC in pursuit of Ron: - Hermione is ready for a more intimate relationship. She's old enough that she's probably feeling lonely and she's past Krum. - Hr/R has been hinted at for a long time. - If she goes about it strangely, you can't blame her. Her interpersonal insights might be very acute, but her command of social behavior is not as good. - Actually explaining to Ron that public snogging in front of her is obnoxious is beneath her dignity. Ron will learn better by example. - Hermione may not be as uber-feminine as Ginny(who ironically is almost a tomboy), but she is becoming an attractive woman as well, as Harry and Ron realized (*suddenly*) in GoF. She probably wants to experiment with her feminine wiles. - She did not pursue Ron violently or obsessively like someone under a potion. 3) Ron - Won-won was under the effects of love potions during his non-Hermione attracted behavior. - Ron *is* immature. He would have seen making out with a random girl a fine way to get back at Hermione, and to make sure he didn't make a fool of himself with the girl he really wants. immature! - Once Ron finds out how much fun making out is, he doesn't want to give it up, even if he doesn't really care for the girl. He's "whipped". - Ron would be an idiot not to make up with Hermione and get as close to her as she'll let him. (Ok, I have a personal Hermione bias) 4) Ginny - I've always thought Hermione the girl who was too good to be true. Ginny's character has developed quite naturally over the last five books. - You have to understand the pressure Molly is putting her under. I can only imagine. She finally has a girl after all that trying (you don't think she wanted all those boys, do you?), and this girl is going to be as feminine as she can manage. - Ginny grew up in a house full of older boys. I know people like this in real life that are quite a bit like Ginny. Great basketball players. Fiercely independent. - Because she's a Weasly and because she adores Harry, she's going to take being a foot soldier in DA quite seriously. Cho didn't - she's not a Griffindor and she doesn't have the competitive spirit of Ginny. - It's not a surprise that a DA member, MoM veteran would know a few good hexes , and have them down pat. - Ginny is too proud to use a love potion on Harry. And she knows better. - Letting Harry off the hook too easily when he wants to isolate himself... Hard to explain, but I don't think she really lets him go at that point. There's no way she would let Ron and Hermione have all the fun following Harry. (except she's not of age as they are) I'm a big fan of the Dallas Theory, but if you take into account that these are teenagers, I think the ships and behavior are not so improbable. Comparatively speaking, this book was light on (frequent) immediate physical danger and school stress, so it gave more time to the ships. The books were too busy before to detail the snogging going on in the common room, but the audience was younger then. Imagine a mixed-gender bunch of 16 year olds with practically no supervision and common living quarters. What do you think will happen? I can only imagine that witches solved the contraception problem ages ago, so what we see in print in the book is pretty tame. I'm really beginning to think that a love-potion conspiracy is too far fetched and the ships stand as they do. Which doesn't mean that Harry won't have to deal more completely with his Ginny ship and that Hermione won't eventually end up with someone else. But we only get to see the events of another year, and a busy one at that, so ships are secondary to the upcoming plot - with one exception. Harry will need to find more strength in love in order to defeat LV. Or, Hermione will end up with a gaggle of red-headed children in the epilogue and thousands of people will simultaneously barf on the last pages of the last book. I think JKR will leave it open. mchenry From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 20:24:06 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:24:06 -0000 Subject: harry's patronus In-Reply-To: <00ff01c58d68$0b56a4b0$8100a8c0@portatilzas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133586 "fridwulfa" wrote: > I've been thinkin a lot about Tonks and her new patronus. I don't think that Snape's remark about Tonk's new patronus was there only as a hint about Tonk and Lupin SHIP, I think this information about patronuses adopting a new form will be relevant later on which makes me think that Harry's patronus might change and become a Phoenix. He declares himself Dumbledore's man through and through several times, he certainly loves the old man and DD loved him, so perhaps DD's patronus will become his new patronus. jozoed now: I was wondering about the new patroni (!?! plural!!!?) too. But I don't think that Harry's will change. His being a stag is way too personal. I highly doubt that he would swap the patronus of his father for that of his headmaster- subconciously or not! From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:26:07 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:26:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable vows *SPOILERS* Message-ID: <158.54f9c027.30100d5f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133587 In a message dated 7/20/2005 3:51:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zgirnius at yahoo.com writes: zgirnius responds: SNIP McGonagall, or any hypothetical other living Binder, is as upset as anyone over the turn of events. And probably busily trying to figure out what at all means about Snape's intentions/motivations...in particular, in this scenario, Snape can't exactly be "cleared". He did kill Dumbledore. But, he may still be of use to the Order and Harry, becasue he is still bound by his vow. Brief Chronicles now: I think the Bonder, even if he or she is baffled by the AK'ing, should be aware that Snape hasn't yet dropped dead, and therefore hasn't really betrayed them. Of course, this is all speculation based on the theory that Snape did make a Vow with Dumbledore, and that the Vow was something along the lines of swearing to protect Harry. I think page (US edition) Page 549: "'I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --'" ... 'Professor... how can you be _sure_ Snape's on our side?'" is a clue. Harry clearly interrupted Dumbledore here. What if Dumbledore was about to say, "I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned to make an Unbreakable Vow to serve the Order of the Phoenix"? This answers quite a lot of questions about Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Again, if such a Vow took place, then the Bonder should notice that Snape would have died on the spot if AKing Dumbledore was a true betrayal. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:26:15 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:26:15 -0000 Subject: Evil Snape? I think not. In-Reply-To: <42DD309D.8060207@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133588 Jazmyn Concolor wrote: He worked too hard to keep the other DEs from killing Harry too, when he could have just let one of them kill him and then let LV deal with the person who killed Harry. . He also was still trying to teach Harry to the last. HogwartsMom says: This is an excellent point. I've been going over the two scenarios in my mind since Sunday ((1) Snape is loyal to LV (2) Snape is loyal to the Order)and haven't been able to find the one piece that makes the puzzle go one way or the other. I was just DEVASTATED when Snape killed DD since I've believed he was not a bad guy since book 1. If (2) is the case, he is some kind of really brave hero. It all comes down to whether one has faith in DD's judgement or not, doesn't it? HogwartsMom From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Jul 20 20:26:05 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:26:05 -0500 Subject: The Remaining Horcruxes/ Corresponding with Petunia References: <1121888544.2474.24496.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003c01c58d69$4514ca00$d3a0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 133589 > Roseviolet now writes: > > But wouldn't Voldemort have lost one of those horcruxes (himself) > when he died as a result of the rebounded AK on baby Harry? That > would leave six. Richelle writes: I was assuming that Voldemort had created another Horcrux in the past two years. Which apparently Dumbledore was assuming also. Which leads to another problem. Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed? Because if he is insistant on splitting the soul into seven then Dumbledore (and I) assumed wrong. If instead Voldemort wants there to always be seven parts of his soul on Earth, and he knows at least the diary has been destroyed, then that would create a never ending supply of Horcruxes, in theory. So instead if we are down to four, which one has Voldemort already used? And in other things, is Dumbledore's comment to Petunia, "We have corresponded, of course" supposed to mean something more than the letter left with Harry and the Howler? Even Harry thought it was an odd way to remind her about it. And the word "correspond" certainly implies more than two letters over fifteen years and normally two-way communication. Richelle From rachel at phony-art.com Wed Jul 20 19:28:28 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:28:28 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable vows In-Reply-To: <2b.7775c241.300ffd7f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133590 Brief Chronicles wrote: > But my guess is that the Bonder is currently alive, and not one of the people we saw at the end of the book. Didn't JKR say in a recent interview ... that we haven't yet met one of the Order members properly? Perhaps we should be looking to Aberforth Dumbledore? Perhaps he was the bonder and thus is keeping a deliberatly low profile in order to stay alive? IF people think he is crazy, maybe he wants them to! Rachel From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:31:36 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:31:36 -0000 Subject: ESE Snape and Snogging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133591 From: Rebecca Stephens --- bbkkyy55 wrote: > Sorry if this has been noticed, but... I'm a ESE > Snape fan and am > rereading. When Hagrid is talking about the > argument he overheard > between Snape and DD he says: > > "Well_ I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too > much fer granted > an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it > anymore-" > > > Notice the word ANYMORE. DD was asking Snape to do > something Snape > had done before. Rebecca replied: >Actually. It "didn't want to do it anymore" could >mean "no longer wanted to do it" Bonnie Now: So what you're saying is at one time Snape WANTED to AK DD, but now he's changed his mind. Well.....that's nice. Do you Snape lovers have any more straws you want to grasp at? Just kidding....who knows. In a few years we'll all find out. I'm just old fashioned I guess. If if looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, usually it's a duck.. Bonnie From clairehugon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 19:39:02 2005 From: clairehugon at hotmail.com (clairehugon1981) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:39:02 -0000 Subject: Snape is innocent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133592 I do not think that asking to be hurt instead of other people is one of Pettigrew's traits, quite the contrary. I am certain that Snape killed the real Dumbledore, and that Dumbledore asked Snape to do it. He had seen it coming all year, that is why he told Harry as much as he could about the Horcruxes and stuff so that Harry could carry on after DD's death. I think Snape is still our guy, he didn't have a choice and DD thought it was worth dying (he as not in very good shape anyway) so that Snape could go on spying on LV, and Malfoy could be saved. DD must have known all year that Snape had vowed to help Malfoy kill him; I cannot believe he was pleading for his life, not after what he said about walking in the arena with one's head held up and eveything. IMO Snape will be revealed to have been on our side all along (that does not stop him from being a big and detestable bully, but people are not wholly good or whooly evil). Maybe nothing really new in this post, but felt like sharing this. Claire From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:32:26 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:32:26 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jospehine" wrote: > drjuliehoward at y... wrote: > > Now that Dumbledore is dead, the magic that protected from Harry at > > the Dursley's is lost. (Once Dumbledore died, "Harry realized he > > could move again" HBP US. page 597). LV probably would know this. > > Harry has an established pattern of returning to the Dursley's at > the end of the school year. What better place to attack him? > > jozoed now: > I think there is a distinct difference between the two spells that > Dumbledore cast. The one binding Harry at the end of HBP needed > Dumbledore to be 'holding' the spell, and therefore holding Harry. > Once Dumbledore died, so did his concentration on the spell. Much > like when someone is summoning a broomstick with 'accio'. If you lose > concentration, the broomstick won't get to you. > > However, the protection spell that Dumbledore placed on the Dursleys > was a much deeper magic, based on blood ties and love. It was a > permanent spell with a definite 'expiry date'- a.k.a. when Harry > turns 17. The spell had already been cast- where as the binding charm > on Harry was in the process of being cast. > > At least that's my take on it! > jozoed That does make sense. So, do you see the protection spell that Dumbledore cast as being the same type of protection that Lily provided? From yellows at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:32:26 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:32:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable vows Message-ID: <1e0.40a372c8.30100eda@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133594 In a message dated 7/20/2005 4:29:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rachel at phony-art.com writes: Brief Chronicles wrote: > But my guess is that the Bonder is currently alive, and not one of the people we saw at the end of the book. Didn't JKR say in a recent interview ... that we haven't yet met one of the Order members properly? Rachel said: Perhaps we should be looking to Aberforth Dumbledore? Perhaps he was the bonder and thus is keeping a deliberatly low profile in order to stay alive? IF people think he is crazy, maybe he wants them to! Rachel Brief Chronicles now: What a good idea!!!! I named a stuffed animal Aberforth , and so was happily looking forward to learning more about this character in HBP. I wonder if he could be of more importance in the next book... Let's see. What do we know about Aberforth that might help us? *runs off to grab OotP* Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 20 20:35:04 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:35:04 -0000 Subject: Could Dumbledore have survived the Potion? was: Re: Snape Haters Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > > Erm... I do believe that Dumbledore could have survived. Hickengruendler: I don't. During the opening feast, Hermione said, that there are Potions for which no antidotes exist. And of course JK Rowling also gives this information to the readers in this scene. And you have to admit, that it would be totally in character for Voldemort to use such a Potion as a protection for the Horcrux. In fact, seeing that it is Voldemort, I'm inclined to say that it would be a plothole if he would use another potion. Surely if someone were able to destroy one Horcrux, he would get sure, that this person won't destroy any other. (That doesn't mean, that it has to be that way. There are some plotholes and oversights in the series after all, but it seems more likely to me, that the Potion was definitely fatal). > I asked > this question, but I will ask it again. > Does he strike to you in a scene with Draco as " dying man talking"? > Not to me, he is making plans for Draco, which HE himself intends to > implement. Hickengruendler: That is IMO because he wanted to stop Draco from becoming a murderer. This was what was important to him at that point, to save Draco from making this big step into evil. That does not mean that I think he lied. I'm sure he still had some time to arrange protection for Draco and Narcissa. After all, R.A.B. aldo didn't die right away after drinking the Potions. Dumbledore said that Voldemort would wanted to have enough time to question the person, who destroyed the Horcrux. But then the situation changed and the other Death Eaters appeared. Dumbledore, who was wandless and at the very least weakened by the Potions knew that it was his end. And that's why he asked Snape to do it. Because it would be a less painful death, the Order wouldn't have lost another member and that Snape would be able to gain Voldemort's complete trust. Also, we shouldn't forget that Snape did nothing to harm Harry. He only defended himself against harry's curses and even gave him further instructions. He also stopped the other Death Eaters from harming Harry (granted, he gave a convincing reason, namely that Voldemort wanted to get Harry himself, but he still saved him here). Hickengruendler, who also thinks that it would be a major disappointment, if the dark, greasy-haired, hook-nosed and through and through nasty git would turn out to be evil From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 20:35:25 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:35:25 -0000 Subject: Where are the Horcruxes was Re: Book 7 timeline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > That part confused me - Voldemort's body is also a Horcrux. It was > destroyed in the original attack on Harry. Would not that leave him > one Horcrux short to begin with? It's not Voldemort's body per se, it's the 7th piece of his soul. When his body was destroyed by the failed AK on Baby Harry at Godrick's Hollow, the 7th piece of his soul lived on, possessed small animals, Quirrell etc. When he acquired a new body through the graveyard sequence in GoF, that 7th piece of his soul then resided within the new body. I don't think this is actually a Horcrux, it's just the final piece of the soul that is actively Voldemort. Therefore I think there are actually only 6 actual Horcruxes (Horcruxi?). Rather than thinking 'what could these Horcruxes be?' I have been trying to think 'where would these Horcruxes be hidden?' Part one (the locket) was located in the place where he tortured fellow orphans - a place of great significane to Tom Riddle. Part two (the diary) was left in the care of Lucius Malfoy (significant to Lord Voldemort) Part three (possibly the cup) may have been left in the care of Bellatix Lestrange "he trusts me with his most precious..." (significant to Lord Voldemort) Part four could be inside Nagini (significant to Lord Voldemort) Parts 5 and 6 may be in other places of significance to Tom Riddle - The Riddle Mansion, his mother's family home, Hogwarts. Just for the record I don't think that the locket at 12GP is THE locket because R.A.B.'s letter says s/he will destroy it immediately. If R.A.B. was Regulus and he had had time to get it back to the family home, I think he would have had time to either destroy it or to alert Sirius or Dumbledore to its significance. J.M.O. Karen From waterbird72 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 19:29:29 2005 From: waterbird72 at gmail.com (waterbird72) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:29:29 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Order in HP7; Will Harry figure it out? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133597 Ah well, I wouldn't make much of a seer, but at least one prediction I made somewhere, at some point along the way did happen in HBP: Harry finally started asking questions. I think he also demonstrated more analytic inclination, as well. I was impressed, for instance, when he immediately copped on to the possibility that Draco had taken the Dark Mark and was working on something for Voldemort, even if Ron and Hermione weren't as convinced. (But he didn't seem too worried about Tonks's strange behaviour, which indicates to me that he's still got a way to go.) Anyway, I am pretty firmly in the camp that believes Snape is still on the side of the Order, which makes me wonder what he can possibly do for them now that everyone believes him to have murdered Dumbledore. Will he try to communicate with anyone? Will Harry be able to step back enough - emotionally - from his memory of the night DD was killed to question what he thinks he witnessed up on the Astronomy Tower? Will he recognise what Snape was doing (ie, advising him) during their "duel"? I don't think Harry will ever forgive himself if he only realises that Snape was on the right side all along AFTER Snape dies. And if Harry kills Snape and *then* realises it? Oh, dear. If these questions are already under discussion in another thread, could someone please direct me? I have been trying to follow the group as closely as possible but the volume the last couple of days has been staggering! -- Waterbird, fluttering out of lurkdom From breegenie at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:37:18 2005 From: breegenie at yahoo.com (breegenie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:37:18 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts & Tom Riddle, Severus Snape, Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133598 HBP both in title, and several plot points, elevates Snape's role in the series, making this a Tom Riddle, Severus Snape, Harry Potter triangle rather than a Voldemort-Harry struggle. This is especially made clear in Dumbledore's thoughts on Hogwarts role: "Firstly, and very importantly, Voldemart was, I believe more attached to this school than he has ever been to a person. Hogwarts was where he had been happiest; the first and only place he had felt at home." Harry felt slightly uncomfortable at these words, for this was exactly how he felt about Hogwarts. "Secondly, the castle is a stronghold of ancient magic. Undoubtedly, Voldemort had penetrated many more of its secrets than most of the student who pass through the place, but he may have felt that there were still mysteries to unravel, stores of magic to tap. And thirdly, as a teacher, he would have had great power and influence over young witches and wizards." p. 431 HPB, US ed This passage in HBP was very striking for me, as it outlines the similarities between the three men and their relationship with Hogwarts, where we previously only saw similarities between Riddle and Harry. All three led miserable lives pre-Hogwarts, either orphaned, abused or abandoned by family, or a combination thereof. All three felt Hogwarts was a true home for them, but also suffered in its walls, too. Riddle was certainly harassed about his poverty (secondhand spell books a la Weasley), unknown paternity and orphanage holidays, at least in his early years. He never made close friends. Snape was teased and harassed for his looks by the Marauders, and does not appear to have made friends, even though Lily defended him. Harry has made a few close Gryffindor friends, but been suspected by every other student, harassed by the Slytherins, and had dubious treatment at the hands of Snape. Riddle figured out the secret of the Chamber while at Hogwarts, and suspected more. What secrets has Snape discovered? Harry has the Marauder's Map, and knows about the Shrieking Shack -- what Hogwarts secrets will Harry discover or use in Book 7? Riddle was observed closely by Dumbledore due to his vicious childhood, Harry was watched over by Dumbledore for varying reasons throughout the series. What was Dumbledore's interaction with Snape as a student? Riddle tried to return to Hogwarts as a teacher several times, unsuccessfully due to Dumbledore. Snape returned as teacher, with Dumbledore's approval and protection. Does this mean that Dumbledore's portrait will embrace Harry should he return to Hogwarts as a teacher someday? They are in need of DADA teacher again, and will probably continue to be until Voldemort's curse is lifted at his death. Dumbledore observed no affection, friendship or love in Riddle at several points in his life. He has observed and aided Harry's friendships (and probably his relationship with GInny) with pride. Has Dumbledore observed love in Snape? Is that why he trusted him? Did Snape express true heartbreak at his role in the murder of Lily? (Not that this doesn't mean that Snape's hatred of the Marauders, loathing of Harry and admiration of power haven't overiddent this love, but it could explain Dumbledore's willingness to trust and fits with the canon description of Snape's confession and Harry scoffing at Dumbledore's gullibility, since Harry still doesn't understand the significance of love. HBP has reshaped the series into a Riddle-Snape-Potter triangle that will be fascinating to watch unfold. And I believe these parallels provide comforting proof that Hogwarts will figure prominently in Year 7, and Harry's future (even if he *thinks* he is not coming back next year!) Bree (who hasn't posted since GOF b/c OOP annoyed her so much!) From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 19:42:13 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:42:13 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > Now that Dumbledore is dead, the magic that protected from Harry at > the Dursley's is lost. (Once Dumbledore died, "Harry realized he > could move again" HBP US. page 597). I do not think this is true at all, the protective magic stems from Lily's death, not Dumbledore and we know that if it is renewed this coming summer it will continue until Harry's 17th birthday. Rolshan From cjoseph at wi.rr.com Wed Jul 20 20:01:17 2005 From: cjoseph at wi.rr.com (kjoseph502000) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:01:17 -0000 Subject: "yes and no" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133600 What if DD was possessed by someone, and then actually died in the cave from drinking the poison. How ironic it would be that he cried out "Kill me!" and Harry replies, "This will" thinking he's lying to get DD to drink the potion. Wouldn't that explain his growing weakness? It would be a lot harder for a possessor to control the body when the original "owner" was dead. It would also explain what I thought was a sarcastic, "I'm not worried. I'm with you, Harry." And I wondered about the last "conversation" on the tower. Could that have been a test for Malfoy? Offer him a chance to back out and see if he takes it, then report back to LV? Could it have been Wormtail? DD used his bad right hand a lot for touching the walls and things in the cave when he had previously complained of it hurting before when pointing. Wormtail wouldn't feel the pain, or care, since his right hand is now silver. Could he have been asking Severus to release him from DD's body? And Snape taking the opportunity to kill Wormtail and make it look good for the DE's present. The hatred being that he could tell that DD was already dead and it was Wormtail's fault. KayJay From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 20 20:42:28 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:42:28 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" > wrote: > > Now that Dumbledore is dead, the magic that protected from Harry at > > the Dursley's is lost. (Once Dumbledore died, "Harry realized he > > could move again" HBP US. page 597). > > I do not think this is true at all, the protective magic stems from > Lily's death, not Dumbledore and we know that if it is renewed this > coming summer it will continue until Harry's 17th birthday. > > Rolshan Hickengruendler: While this is true, that still makes it possible, that the Dursleys will be attacked. After all, if Voldemort knows that Harry isn't safe there anymore, they will be in danger as soon as Harry turns 17, even more so if Harry is still there, but I would say they are in danger anyway. Harry doesn't like them, but it surely would get him if his last remaining family is killed. From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 20:43:13 2005 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:43:13 -0000 Subject: Danger at the Dursleys!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > So, do you see the protection spell that > Dumbledore cast as being the same type of protection that Lily > provided? In a way I suppose, but only in a theoretic way rather than an opinion based on fact. It's nice to think that DD died for Harry's sake, but Dumbledore didn't sacrifice himself for Harry specifically, he just made sure he was out of the picture. His death would benefit the larger good and wasn't done out of fatherly love as much as a last resort. And likewise Snape didn't give DD the choice to save himself, where as Lily was given that choice and chose to die rather than lose her son. There are similarities, but DD's death won't have left any lasting protection on Harry alone. It may have been heroic (depending on your point of view) but not done with a mother's instinct. jozoed From famoustish at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:13:00 2005 From: famoustish at yahoo.com (famoustish) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:13:00 -0000 Subject: My wildest theory and biggest dream Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133603 I haven't seen this discussed, so forgive me if it has. Please also forgive me for not having exact quotes as I listen to the books and quotes are hard to recover on audio. I found it strange that Wormtail was a near servent to Snape. I found it quite a coincidence that Wormtail has no right hand (or a real one anyway) and it was DD's right hand that was burned and dead looking. My theory is that DD has been Wormtail all year and that it is Wormtail who is dead, and not DD. Didn't DD say to Draco that he could make LV believe he(Draco) was dead and hide him? Didn't DD say it was the best way of hiding, to pretend to be dead? Am I alone in this thought? famoustish From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:09:39 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:09:39 -0000 Subject: messengers - less owls, more people Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133604 So many people in this book used personal messengers as opposed to owls or something. Dumbledore used them to contact Harry, Slughorn used them for the Slug Club and Draco used them. What if Draco had used an owl to deliver the wrapped necklace? Wouldn't house elves have been more dependable for Dumbledore? I mean, what student is going to want to look through such a huge castle with 1000 or so students to find just one? And Slughorn...I guess his makes the most sense. It was just weird to all of the sudden have less owls and so many people messengers. -Casmir From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:17:31 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:17:31 -0000 Subject: Comments on Comments (Weasleys, Fleur, Dumbledore only) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133605 Casmir wrote: (only a little excerpt follows) >Dumbledore didn't come across much different to me, the only >difference is that we actually got to know him outside the fatherly >and concerned discussions at the end of the books. Imagine DD being >something other than an answer machine after the woe...you mean he is >something more? >I love it when the books aren't what we expect...it gives us a much >larger view of their world. Your whole post was well put and I agreed 100%. Plus, with the Weasley women, as with most women in a family - it's hard for them to ever think ANYBODY will be good enough for their beloved brothers/sons . . . I have loads of first-hand experience in this area!! I too was finally pleased with Fleur, but bewilderedly so! And I thought Dumbledore is just getting really old and tired on top of everything. My dad is 79 and gets "weirder" by the day, but is still the same wise and happy person he ever was. Amy (who thanks God every day for good books, music, and movies just as these)! From mangochee at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:31:48 2005 From: mangochee at yahoo.com (mangochee) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:31:48 -0000 Subject: Women in HBP (was: Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133606 anthyroserain: > And Tonks. Oh, I don't even want to get into this, as I still think Lupin was coded as gay (yes, I'm one of THOSE people) but I was really bothered by her depiction in HBP. In OOTP, though we don't see her all that much, we have one of the coolest, most nontraditional women in the series: she has a sense of humor, she kicks ass, she's clumsy and not conventionally pretty, and she radiates independence. In HBP, she's transformed into the Pining Woman archetype. But no, she was just in love the entire time, and it interfered with her abilities. < mangochee: I believe that Tonks falling in love with Lupin shows how unconventional she is. I saw Tonks' relationship with Lupin as her asserting her independence; it's her choice to be with Lupin, no matter what everyone else thinks. As far as her subdued character is concerned, I think it's clear that Tonks was going through a emotionally troubling time. If you are rejected in love, you feel let down and broken down. We have all been there. I don't think it means that Tonks is less capable of doing her job because of her personal life. Her appearance is not as cheerful; being a Metamorphmagus, I think her emotions are truely reflected in her appearance. From clio44a at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 20:51:43 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:51:43 -0000 Subject: Snape Haters Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > After he takes an antidote from dear Snape, IMO. > This is a BIG question. Why Dumbledore called for Snape to ask for > antidote or to beg to be killed? Sorry to butt in, but I believe we have to look at another possibility of why DD wanted Harry to fetch Snape and only Snape to the tower top. The most important thing is neither DD's nor Draco's nor Snape's life. It is destryoing the horcruxes. DD has already almost died while destroying the first horcrux. I think he needs Snape not to bring an antidote (that is an additional bonus), but to help him destroy the locket. DD is in no condition to do that task himself. Snape has assisted him after the destruction of the ring and he seems to be quite an expert in dealing with dark objects. That would at least explain DD's peculiar behaviour at the tower before Draco arrives. If what then happens on top of the tower is an unforseen complication, an ordered killing, or a cold blooded murder is everyone's guess. If you believe Evil!Snape was in on the whole horcrux business and suspected DD was away to retrieve another horcrux, it seems at least odd that he didn't attempt take the locket away from the weak old man in front of him. For me DD's behavior makes much more sense if you believe in Dumbledore's-man-through-and-through!Snape. But that's just me. Clio, who thinks Evil!Snape is simlpy too cliche to be true. From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:41:18 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:41:18 -0000 Subject: Snape - what about the unbreakable vow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133608 davenclaw wrote: > Now, my list of things that I was surprised were missing in the book: >.... HogwartsMom says: And what about the 1000 Galleon reward for the capture of an escaped DE? Shouldn't the Order and the DA have been awarded 1000 G for each DE captured? Or did it all go to DD? But wasn't mentioned. HogwartMom From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Jul 20 20:52:30 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:52:30 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pastafor5" wrote: > The one key moment that makes me think (sadly) that Snape did > this out of loyalty to Voldemort rather than Dumbledore is > when Draco tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable > Vow to his mother. Dumbledore says it isn't true and that > Snape just made that up to get information from him. But we > know that it was actually true. If Dumbledore didn't know > that, then it appears Snape must have been loyal to Voldemort > instead. Sorry to post without fully catching up -- I am sure someone has already made some or all of these points, just not in response to this particular post. But this seemed a reasonable place to jump in. The conversation with Draco is of course not the first time DD has heard that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow; Harry told him much earlier. Regardless of what Snape has told DD (and whether DD believes Harry), there's every reason for Dumbledore to bluff with Draco at that point in order to undermine Draco's confidence in LV's side and to build up his confidence in the good guys. He wants Draco to defect. I am becoming more and more convinced, although it was not my first reading, that DD intended all along for Snape to deliver the coup de grace. Why else is he calling for Harry to get Snape, both in Hogsmeade and up on the tower? Snape is not the resident Healer; he is not even the potions master at this point. I think DD knows that his moment has come, and that by putting him out of his misery Snape can cement his position with LV and the Death Eaters -- and save Draco from his predicament. -- Matt From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:56:05 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:56:05 -0000 Subject: after the first reading... In-Reply-To: <20050719133539.83685.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133610 Mira wrote: Why did he [Snape] make it [the unbreakable vow]? I believe that mostly out of pride. HogwartwMom says: I think he was trapped in the situation with Bellatrix and thought he could ameliorate the situation by vowing, then, when Narcissa added the last part of the vow (a surprise to Snape, he hadn't bargained on that), he couldn't back out. The situation at Hogwarts got out of hand because Draco didn't tell Snape about the cabinet. Had Snape known, he could have been in more control of the situation. As it was, he and DD's "worst case scenario plan" had to be used. HogwartsMom From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 21:01:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:01:19 -0000 Subject: LOTR Parallels in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: Brothergib: > Interesting to note (if it hasn't been already) that Gandalf was > thought to have been killed off in LOTR but was reborn. Perhaps we will > see the same thing with Dumbledore? > > Personally, I don't think so, but worth making the point! Geoff: But bear in mind that, when Gandalf fell from Durin's Bridge fighting the Balrog, we had no body and no funeral - which we have had in HBP. From JodyE50 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 20:54:51 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:51 EDT Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny Message-ID: <90.620ea7db.3010141b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133612 mg_mchenry at hotmail.com writes: > Comparatively speaking, this book was light on (frequent) immediate > physical danger and school stress, so it gave more time to the ships. > The books were too busy before to detail the snogging going on in the > common room, but the audience was younger then. Imagine a > mixed-gender bunch of 16 year olds with practically no supervision and > common living quarters. What do you think will happen? > > I can only imagine that witches solved the contraception problem ages > ago, so what we see in print in the book is pretty tame. > Actually I find the young witches and wizards in the HP books to be rather innocent, compared to today's teenagers. If you think about it, they have no exposure to television or the Internet. They have "pop" music and radios but not much else that modern teens have. In many ways they remind me of the Amish, holding on to a simpler and more innocent lifestyle, in the face of the outside (Muggle) world. We really don't know the Wizarding world's views on teen sex or sexuality in general. Presumably each family handles sex education the same way they handle regular education, pre-eleven years old. It certainly doesn't seem to be a subject taught at Hogwarts. The only hint of actual supervision we have seen in the living quarters are the sliding staircase leading to the girl's dorms. Maybe the students are being fed saltpeter in their treacle tarts, or there are some other anti-sex spells in place that we haven't found out about yet, since the snogging has been quite innocent so far. I think that JKR has chosen to keep her books rated PG deliberately. I notice that when Voldemort's mother ran off with Tom Riddle, they were secretly married...Voldy wasn't illegitimate. A mature relationship was hinted at between Hagrid and Madame Maxine when they went giant hunting, but that was something that only adults would pick up on, I think. I can only imagine what will happen in book 7, when everybody (except Ginny) is of age and a state of war exists. Mrs. Weasley worries that impulsive marriages tend to take place in such times, much like in the human world. It should be very interesting, indeed. Jody From kathrin.p at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 20:34:03 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:34:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD is dead, but is Sirius? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e2ac800507201334b072b7b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133613 Gail wrote: > > It is interesting to note that DD appeared after death in a portrait > in his office, sleeping during H's visit to P.McG, (not ready/able to > talk /animate ,yet?) However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in > a talking portrait... Kathrin: But does everyone who died appear in a painting? We have never heard of James and Lily and all the others being in a talking painting, have we? So I'm just not sure whether Sirius is dead or alive. Could as well be only the important wizards and witches end up in a painting after their death... But then, I suppose we'll find out more about it in book 7 if it is really important! Kathrin From jmnabers at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:06:41 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:06:41 -0000 Subject: Does it matter if Snape is good or bad? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133614 I don't know if it really matters---at least not to Harry. And we know, in the end, that Harry is the one who must defeat Voldemort. Harry has *never* trusted Snape...all evidence and reassurances to the contrary. I know we all want to trust Dumbledore, but I think the point is that Harry needs to trust himself. For years, he's the boy that cried wolf, and now he's finally been proven right about Snape. As it should be! Harry needs to kill Voldy.... And that means, that regardless of what we find out about the reasons behind Snape's actions, Snape is as good as dead to the Order. Bottom line,IMHO: Harry will NEVER put any faith or trust in the man who he watched murder Dumbledore. Maybe we'll find out more about why Snape did what he did, or if Dumbledore asked him to do it...but it won't matter to Harry. Snape might be a tragic character then, but he was always a jerk to Harry and as a teacher myself, I find that hard to forgive. Harry most certainly will find it impossible to forgive--especially in another year (maybe not even another lifetime.) Jennifer From k.coble at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 21:13:56 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:13:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133615 On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:12 PM, kjirstem wrote: > > Katherine (message 133279): > > >I really think that the only thing wrong with Tonks was unrequited > >love. > > Kjirstem: > I do believe that Tonks loves Lupin, I just want to make that clear. > But, what I want to know is how do you rationalize her behavior in > the two situations I highlighted in my original post (132970) (Tonks > in the corridor by the Room of Req't and Tonks during the > battle)?? > I have trouble reconciling this explanation with her behavior in > these two places. > K: In the corridor outside the RoR she was preoccupied because she had heard about the werewolf attacks and feared that the worst had happened to the man she loved. In the battle, her focus was split because her mind was on Lupin's welfare above all. Her behaviour in the battle is, I believe, one of the things that subconsciously persuades Harry to table his relationship with Ginny. Each book has had a slightly different genre overlaid on top of the story arc: Book 1: Children's alternate reality fantasty ala the Chronicles of Narnia & Mary Poppins Book 2: Mystery Book 3: Children's revenge fantasy Book 4: Adventure and challenge Book 5: Political / Espionage Book 6: Romance Book 7: (Prediction) Adult Fantasy/Quest Book 6 uses the different characters to showcase the different kinds of love and different stages of love people go through: Unrequited Love (Ginny for Harry; Harry for Ginny; Tonks for Lupin; Merope for Tom Sr.) Marital Love (Arthur & Molly) Unconditional Love (Fleur & Bill; Tonks & Lupin; Dumbledore & Harry) Vainglorious Love (Slughorn & any number of his opportunistic connections) Infatuation (Romelda Vane for Harry; Ron for Romelda Vane while under the influence of Potion; Tom Sr. for Merope while under the influence of potion) Empty love (Merope for the bewitched Tom Riddle) Childish Crush (Ron for Rosmerta) Erotic Love (Ron & Lavender, Ginny and Dean) Fulfilled Love (Tonks & Lupin at the end, Harry and Ginny toward the end) Tonks wasn't the same simply because she was completely spread too thin by her obsessive worry for Remus. It happens all the time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robertocm87 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 21:11:24 2005 From: robertocm87 at hotmail.com (roco2hp) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:11:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore mistake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133616 i think that DD's trust in Snape was his huge mistake. Remember DD told Harry in chapter 10 that because his is more clever than most men, his mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger? So, adding to the fact that Snape was such a good occlumens (we all know this), DD made this big mistake of trusting him (Snape) I can't deny that the theory that Snape killed DD because DD told him to do it previously when Snape told him about the unbreakable vow is very possibly true. But see it all the way around, I think Harry would never forgive Snape. (Poeple always pay for their mistakes, as DD paid for trusting Snape. Snape made an horrible mistake also - he was the one that made LV kill Harry's parents, and he killed one of the people Harry trusted the most (DD), and at the end of the book Harry said that if Snape appeared in his way to LV, the better for him, he really plans to kill him. Roco From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 21:18:55 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:18:55 -0000 Subject: ESE Snape and Snogging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133617 > Rebecca wrote: > > >Actually. It "didn't want to do it anymore" could > >mean "no longer wanted to do it" > > Bonnie Now: > > So what you're saying is at one time Snape WANTED to AK DD, but now > he's changed his mind. Well.....that's nice. > > Do you Snape lovers have any more straws you want to grasp at? > Just kidding....who knows. In a few years we'll all find out. > I'm just old fashioned I guess. If if looks like a duck and walks > like a duck and quacks like a duck, usually it's a duck.. > > Bonnie Dungrollin: You mean, if it walks with a limp like Mad-Eye Moody, if it has a magical eye, like Mad-Eye Moody, and if it drinks from a flask like Mad-Eye Moody, then it must (obviously) be Mad-Eye Moody? Come off it! Have we been reading the same books? DD would never have left it this late in the game to say "Oh, blimey, Snape, I've just thought of a difficulty with this secret agent malarky! What if Voldemort orders you to murder me?!" Of course they've discussed it before. DD has a fairly good idea that the protection around the Horcrux will be fatal (the last one took his hand, and he's slowing down), and he knows that if he dies from the effects of the potion, Snape will die. Remember the vow? If Malfoy couldn't do it, Snape swore he would, if DD dies any other way, Snape's broken his vow. DD has a final task for Snape, and it *must* be accomplished from *within* the DEs, and it's more important than DD's own life. And if DD didn't want Snape to kill him, why didn't he summon Fawkes to pass him his wand, and swallow the AK? Why did he immobilise Harry under the invisibility cloak? Why did he appear to have known what Draco's mission was all year, and *still* trust Snape? Dungrollin (Who still trusts Dumbledore, and by extension, Snape.) From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 21:26:03 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:26:03 -0000 Subject: Why Half-Blood Prince? was: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133618 Mangochee wrote: > But isn't it interesting that Snape chose a name for himself that > highlights his not so perfect lineage? Voldemort would never imagine > calling himself "half-blood" even just to himself. Snape naming > himself "Half-Blood Prince" is very intriguing to me. Clio replied: >>[snip] What kind of person would write such a silly name in a school textbook, anyways? Snape must have known that the marauders would have had a field day if they discovered that nickname. And yet we are to believe that Lupin knew noone of that name. If it wasn't for Snape's cheesy line in 'The Flight of the Prince' ('... I, the Half-Blood Prince ...') I would have written the name off as a cynical teenager's idea of a stupid joke about his family. [snip]From what we know of the Snape family home-life and financial status I just can't imagine the future Death Eater Snape to be overly proud of his mother or his ancestry in general.<< HunterGreen: Perhaps Snape didn't know being Half-Blood was something to be ashamed of when he came up with the title. Its not long his mother would have told him 'we're dirty half-bloods' when it was her that married a muggle. But, I suppose even that is unlikely, because he most likely heard it from somewhere. But if he came up with the nasme at a young age, it could easily been before he became a proud Slytherin pureblood enthusiast. Its the newt-level book, but did he start using it in sixth year, or did he come across it earlier? Young Severus might have come across it with his mother's old school things (it was her book), and learned all the potions himself. It must have taken a lot of experimenation (or a exteremely natural ability in potions) to come up with all those hints for potions, and he spent a lot of time writing them out. That might be why the book is kept there as a school copy, Adult Snape could have still been using it (unless he has all the potions memorized), and forgot it in his joy of getting the DADA job. We haven't heard the name mentioned by anyone before, so perhaps Snape never told anyone about it. If he came up with the name as a child, then later grew ashamed of his muggle father, I can see why he'd keep the name a secret. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From muellem at bc.edu Wed Jul 20 21:26:01 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:26:01 -0000 Subject: The DADA Position will bring out the worst in him... HBP Spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133619 > > So given this, why would Dumbledore have finally broken down this > year and given the position to Snape? He would have known that Snape > could only do it for one year. Why would snape want the job? He's > smart enough to have figured out the curse... If LV hadn't told him > about it already. > > And, what does this say about Snape? If this year runs true to > pattern, Snape's true nature was revealed when he killed Dumbledore, > and he has a very bad fate waiting for him. > > Janeway or it could be that Snape's true nature is loyal to DD and the OotP and that will be revealed in book 7. From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:28:03 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:28:03 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133620 I am absolutely livid with Snape but not for Killing Dumbledore..but for telling Voldemort about the prophecy! Sheesh look at what Snapes actions started! Murder of the Potters, torture of the Longbottoms!! And then he has the nerve to be snide and unpleasant among other things to both Harry and Neville when they are around him.(He cannot even manage cool indiference!) As brave as Neville is I find it very telling that the boggart turned into prof. Snape for Neville!!! DD will have his reasons for trusting Snape...DD made his choice!!! Harry and Neville not much of a reason at all to trust Snape. And I also think that the clue to occlumency is not to clear one's mind of emotion...but to focus on an emotion..(the only time it appeared to be effective for Harry...and it appears Snape is ALWAYS angry!). Much of Snapes behavior in HBP may be able to be explained/reasoned away...but not his treatment of Harry, and not his treatment of Neville and not even his continued loathing of James in the previous five books...Snape did, after all, have a hand in James death and he owed James a life debt no less!!!!! I don't care how much you've been bullied-seems to me James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin had plenty of punishment for their behavior. (remember the detention records Harry had to recopy?) I do not know if there's anything Snape could do that would redeem him enough to get out of the black and be more of a grey character for me. Doddie --who completely understands why Harry loathes Snape and hopes Snape gets what he deserves in the end! From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:24:30 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:24:30 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133621 Katherine Coble wrote: > Book 6 uses the different characters to showcase the different kinds of love and different stages of love people go through... I like this analysis but where is the best romance of these - Ron/Hermione? I supposed Fulfilled Love towards the end, although we see very little of that... YOur classification does not seem to work for arguably most significant and certainly the most heavily foreshadowed romance in the series.... Rolshan From lliannanshe at comcast.net Wed Jul 20 21:30:35 2005 From: lliannanshe at comcast.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:30:35 -0000 Subject: messengers - less owls, more people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" Casmir wrote: So many people in this book used personal messengers as opposed to owls or something. <> It was just weird to all of the sudden have less owls and so many people messengers. Lliannanshe Doesn't seem too weird to me since messages sent by owl can be intercepted, read and/or altered. Remember Umbridge? From ladyljd at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:31:59 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:31:59 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133623 Newbie here, needing to vent. Apologies in advance ... After finishing HBP, I remain frustrated and bitter even after a few days of reflection. The destruction of both of my favorite Potter characters was bad enough. (Who knew one would murder the other?!) But this is only the first stab in the heart. The knife twists by revealing the murderer to be deliberately evil rather than the anti-hero I believed him to be. And finally salt is poured in the wound by the planting of confusing clues designed to feed hope for redemption that will never come. There is no doubt in my mind now of JKR's intentions for Snape. I've spent some time researching her interview statements over the past few days. I'm convinced of her thought processes now. In short, Severus Snape was never meant to be anyone's favorite character. And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant capacity to love. Here are the quotes on which I base these opinions: Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it. Q: What about Snape? JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. Q: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. Given all of the above, I'm arrogantly offering my Book 7 predictions on what will happen with my favorite characters. When you read it you will know why, for me, all of the magic has on out of the Potter world: ? The story will be a Harry Potter version of The Davinci Code with the trio traveling to magically historic places in search of the missing Horcruxes. Each location will reveal more of Snape's and Voldemort's secrets. ? The story will pick up immediately after HBP events and reveal Snape as relieved and delighted to finally be free of his tiresome role serving Dumbledore and teaching his ungrateful brats. Free of being a double agent, he will dive whole-heartedly into his revealed role as Voldemort's right hand man. This probably means he has a few rivals to kill to keep his place secure before the ultimate end (Bellatrix? Lucius? ). He will have no contact with the side of light until the final battle. ? Dumbledore is well and truly dead. He leaves no written directions and his portrait will only awaken to once the final battle is over. ? Snape will be revealed to have been serving his own ends at all times. Yes, the greatest wizard of all times was made a fool by the consummate spy. To support this, Snape himself will be revealed to be a very powerful wizard in his own right. His skills allowed him to easily dupe and appease Dumbledore in all situations confirming the HBP chapter 2 version of events verbatim. Dumbledore will be revealed to have been completely blinded by love and sympathy for what he believed was Snape's genuine sorrow and repentance. ? An ironclad reason will be provided as to why Snape is firmly in Voldemort's camp and I believe it will be BLOOD or his heritage. ? Snape will be the perfect counterbalance to Harry in JKR's morality of play of "choices". As Dumbledore always preached, your life and destiny are what you make it. Book 7 will fully reveal the similarities of life experiences for both Snape and Harry and how Harry has consistently chosen well in comparison to the evil former spy. ? The present day Lord Voldemort will play just as minor a role in Book 7 as he did in HBP. The bulk of the text will follow the course of the Davinci Code styled adventure packed with all sorts of damning revelations about Snape's easy duplicity to both the Dark Lord and Dumbledore. We will be left in no doubt of Snape's self serving path of evil destruction. And then, just as all hope seems lost to Snape fans, JKR will hit us again. Snape will have some sort of Road to Damascus experience just before the finale`. This experience will cause him to pursue the path of redemption once again, only this time he'll really mean it. He will once again switch sides and help Harry defeat Voldemort. And I believe this help will come in form of Snape somehow using his BLOOD or heritage as a weapon of destruction. In the end who knows what will happen to Snape? My gut says JKR is just as likely to kill him as she is to leave him alive to suffer the consequences of his evil. I can definitely see a "death is too good for him" approach. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong here, Book 7 will make one thing perfectly clear: Severus Snape was NEVER a hero. His choices to do the things he did made him the "deeply horrible person" he became. And even a last act of redemption will never be able to make up for the evil of his past. Like I said, I'm bitter! The thrill is gone. If you've made it this far, please let me know your thoughts on my ranting. And thanks!! Ljd From cubs9911 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 21:36:13 2005 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:36:13 -0000 Subject: My wildest theory and biggest dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "famoustish" wrote: > I haven't seen this discussed, so forgive me if it has. Please also > forgive me for not having exact quotes as I listen to the books and > quotes are hard to recover on audio. > > I found it strange that Wormtail was a near servent to Snape. I found > it quite a coincidence that Wormtail has no right hand (or a real one > anyway) and it was DD's right hand that was burned and dead looking. > My theory is that DD has been Wormtail all year and that it is > Wormtail who is dead, and not DD. > Didn't DD say to Draco that he could make LV believe he(Draco) was > dead and hide him? Didn't DD say it was the best way of hiding, to > pretend to be dead? > > Am I alone in this thought? > > famoustish **** It's a good theory, but then why did Dumbledore's picture magically appear? And then their is the phoenix song at the end. Plus in interviews JKR has said things like that she keeps killing her favorite members of the Order and that Harry would have to face things alone. So I feel that Dumbledore is indeed dead sadly. Plus I don't believe that Wormtail is an accomplished enough wizard to get through all the hazards in route to the locket Horcrux. Joe From muellem at bc.edu Wed Jul 20 21:40:24 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:40:24 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133625 I have come to the opinion that Snape's bad attitude is part-truth(he is nasty) and partly an act(if he was a nice guy all of a sudden, that might raise doubts in LV's mind & the Death Eaters) just my opinion, though --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > I am absolutely livid with Snape but not for Killing Dumbledore..but > for telling Voldemort about the prophecy! > > Sheesh look at what Snapes actions started! > > Murder of the Potters, torture of the Longbottoms!! > > And then he has the nerve to be snide and unpleasant among other > things to both Harry and Neville when they are around him.(He cannot > even manage cool indiference!) > > As brave as Neville is I find it very telling that the boggart turned > into prof. Snape for Neville!!! > > DD will have his reasons for trusting Snape...DD made his choice!!! > > Harry and Neville not much of a reason at all to trust Snape. > > And I also think that the clue to occlumency is not to clear one's > mind of emotion...but to focus on an emotion..(the only time it > appeared to be effective for Harry...and it appears Snape is ALWAYS > angry!). > > Much of Snapes behavior in HBP may be able to be explained/reasoned > away...but not his treatment of Harry, and not his treatment of > Neville and not even his continued loathing of James in the previous > five books...Snape did, after all, have a hand in James death and he > owed James a life debt no less!!!!! I don't care how much you've been > bullied-seems to me James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin had plenty of > punishment for their behavior. (remember the detention records Harry > had to recopy?) > > I do not know if there's anything Snape could do that would redeem > him enough to get out of the black and be more of a grey character > for me. > > Doddie > --who completely understands why Harry loathes Snape and hopes Snape > gets what he deserves in the end! From jmnabers at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:30:52 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:30:52 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133626 > Alina wrote: > > > > I personally also had the idea that maybe the last Horcrux is > > > > Harry's scar... > Am I the only one who thinks that the last horcrux is actually going to be Harry's EYES, and that he won't die but will be blinded in the end? God, I know that's gruesome, but there's just so much talk about Harry's eyes, that I feel that they are the most likely to be the horcrux. Jennifer From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 21:42:09 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:42:09 -0000 Subject: "The Prince".. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133627 "anthyroserain" wrote: > I'm of the opinion that Snape is > definitely on the good side That I would bet my life that is untrue, I would bet my life that is as far from being true as it is possible to be. Snape's crime was so huge, so gigantic, so enormous, so astronomical, that it is absolutely positively 100% unforgivable, and no extenuating circumstances could possibly exonerate him; none, zero, nada. It's over, the jury has delivered it's verdict and the fat lady has sung. Snape is evil, there is no longer any doubt, and there are no if's and's or but's about it. End of story. However that does not mean Snape is on Voldemort's side. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort trusted Snape; I think events will prove that both were wrong to do so. Snape is not content in being Voldemort's right hand man, he wants to be number one, he want people to be afraid to speak the name "SNAPE". It would not surprise me if in book 7 if Voldemort is killed not by Harry but by Snape, and the final bloody gory appalling hideous apocalyptic battle is between Harry and Snape. I don't know and can not predict the outcome of that cosmic confrontation. Eggplant From breegenie at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:45:29 2005 From: breegenie at yahoo.com (breegenie) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:45:29 -0000 Subject: Has Harry already destroyed 1 bit of LV's soul? (Was: The Remaining Horcruxes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133628 Combining canon from the entire series to date could give us some insight on LV's remaining Horcruxes. Known, Located, Destroyed 1. The diary in COS. Obviously a personal object -- his diary while at Hogwarts and proof that he was the true heir of Slytherin. Was LV's first attempt, since his bit of soul appears quite young (underage) and most human. Although he makes it seem he does not understand how to create a Horcrux, one has to wonder if it was created BEFORE he had even talked with Slughorn about multiples, when he murdered the Riddles. LV already has Marvolo's ring while talking to Slughorn. Since he is wearing it, the ring is unlikely to be a Hor crux yet. p. 368-9 US ed HBP. 2. Marvolo's Slytherin ring. Family heirloom. Murder victim is likely Hepzibah Smith (DD thought it was LV's first murder since the Riddles p. 439). Known, Unlocated 3. Salazar Slytherin Locket -- unknown murder created Horcrux. Possibly in Kreacher's or Fletcher's possession. 4. Helga Hufflepuff Goblet -- unknown murder created Horcrux. Unknown: 5. ???? -- likely to be something from Rowena Ravenclaw due to JKR's assertion that Ravenclaw will have its day, and LV's obsession with Hogwarts founders. 6. This was the Horcrux that LV intended to be made from Harry's demise, but failed. Dumbledore *guesses* that LV eventually used Nagini as object, but he admits to Harry that this is speculation. p. 505-6 This Horcrux is guessed to be created at the murder of the Muggle servant at the Riddle house in GOF. 7. Remaining bit of soul, has roamed the world in wild animals, Quirell, the weird babymort and now in LV's new body. We know that LV tended to saved Horcrux creation for significant murders. The diary was his likely his first (human) murder, which would make it significant on its own, plus it was his Muggle family. The old witch was a descendant of Helga Hufflepuff and had his family locket (which he probably suspected before he visited because Burke had sold it to her). Harry was a planned Horcrux because of the prophecy (object unkown). What other significant, unsolved murders can we link to Horcruxes in canon? We know that LV took great pains to hide the murders that created them -- putting the memories inside his uncle and Hokey the house elf. This will make it harder for Harry to track down the remaining Horcruxes, if he can't trace the murders, either. We know that LV got more skilled at hiding them -- gave one to Malfoy, hid one in ancestor's home, another in a childhood cave, and perhaps hid one in an unlikely animal that will be hard to destroy. We also know that they do a good job of defending themselves -- Riddle/LV's soul used the basilisk to attack Harry, Dumbledore was maimed by his destruction of the ring, and the locket was well protected by the Inferi and potion, and will probably protect itself against Harry's attempts at destruction. We know that LV's bits of soul can think for themselves, and behave like him. Riddle could act on its own to possess Ginny, much like LV tried to possess Harry in OOP. Hopefully DD left a Pensieve memory of his attack on the ring to help Harry figure out how to destroy the locket. Will Harry be possessed by a bit of LV at some point in Book 7? Since LV feels the pain of this, it might warn LV that his Horcrux are under attack... Regarding Harry as Horcrux, or the possible creation of a Horcrux at Harry's baby attack, LV would have been determined to use something of Gryffindor's for his final Horcrux and I don't think it would have been Harry himself. Dumbledore seems sure that the only known relic (sword) was not used. Perhaps because he retrieved it from the rubble at Godric's Hollow? LV may have known the Potters had some Gryffindor item, especially if their hiding place was Godric's ancient house. No matter the object, it seems clear that the Harry/Lily AK bounced back curse thwarted LV's final Horcrux attempt for many years. At this point, I can't find anything in canon that points to Harry being a Horcrux himself. In GOF, the Priori Incantatem of LV's wand in GOF does not indicate a Horcrux spell. So either: LV was destroyed so quickly by the bounced back AK so he never got to cast the spell/ move the bit of soul into the Horcrux. LV was destroyed so quickly by the bounced back AK his bit of soul never left his body, failing to create a Horcrux moment. The creation of a Horcrux is built in to the AK spell, and when it bounced back on LV, the created Horcrux was destroyed by it. This would mean that baby Harry nearly killed LV, but actually killed one of his bits of soul before it entered an object. One less to kill now (unless DD's Nagini theory is true). I think this is likely because Harry bears the mark of LV attempting to create a Horcrux that night. His lightening bolt scar. At several points in canon, it is remarked that AK normally leaves no mark (the Riddle bodies, Muggles wondering about deaths). Several UK edition readers have pointed out a lightening bolt mark in the illustration of Marvolo's ring *after* Dumbledore destroys the bit of LV's soul in it. It seems very likely that JKR would have a physical symbol of a bit of soul being destroyed. Perhaps the mark left by a destroyed bit of soul is a lightening bolt? And Harry's scar is proof that LV failed to create a Horcrux while trying to kill him. We won't know for sure until Harry destroys the soul in the Slytherin locket. Bree From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Jul 20 21:45:52 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:45:52 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to > keep Harry from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes > on him after this plan worked out. > > Harry will never believe anything about Snape again ? Harry > will try to kill Snape the first chance he gets. If Snape > came to Harry and tried everything he could to persuade > Harry, it would do no good. Snape couldn't convince any of > the Order, either. It's hard to figure out how Snape can be > any good to the Order or Harry after this. Jim -- forgive me for not addressing your other points, but others have already made responses close enough to my thoughts on those. As to Harry's reaction, and Harry's perceptions of Snape more generally, this is actually the point that I find most strongly *supportive* of the theory that Snape remained loyal to Dumbledore. Possibly the most recurrent subplot in the books is Harry's suspicions of Snape, and how he always misinterprets the motives behind Snape's actions. Is it possible that Snape has somehow become completely transparent to Harry? It seems immensely more likely that in his (mutual) animosity toward Snape, Harry is missing something. I still believe that Harry's great battle in book 7 will have something significant to do with overcoming his hatred of Snape. Building up the tension to an almost unbelievable level in advance of the resolution strikes me as being very consistent with Rowling's style. As for convincing others, I don't think Snape will do it. Either they (e.g. Hermione, Lupin) will convince themselves or they will never be convinced. But the fact that the Order don't know Snape is on their side surely does not mean he can't be "any good" to them -- it just means he's under very deep cover. -- Matt From monzaba at poczta.onet.pl Wed Jul 20 21:46:31 2005 From: monzaba at poczta.onet.pl (monika_zaboklicka) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:46:31 -0000 Subject: murder is NOT in Snape's character Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133630 I quite understand that for most people verbal abuse of kids is evil enough. You're absoluthely right. It just happens that I belong to the "deeds speak louder than words" school of thought. It takes all kinds etc. To make things look more like a challenge, let's assume that: - anything Snape said etc. might be untrue, unless he was expressing how evil he was; - AD was just trusting once too often and paid dearly for his naivete (I don't think it was the case, but never mind)* 1. Snape's a verbal abuser - agreed. Still, he's surprisingly indiscriminate about it. Did he treat Tonks worse than Bellatrix? Was he actually KIND to Pettigrew? Or to Crabbe, in chapter 32 of OoP - "if you ever apply for a job"? 2. Snape was always fascinated by Dark Arts. Granted. He invented nasty spells, and... oh dear, did he ever use them successfully? The AK he used against Dumbledore is the first example of him casting a serious curse. The story of bullying Snape that Harry saw in his memory was confirmed by both Sirius and Remus, Black even admitted that tormenting Snape continued up till seventh year. It seems that the Marauders were better at using Snape's nasty spells than Snape himself. 3. Until he AK'd Dumbledore, the only evidence of Snape's physical violence were: - he force-fed Trevor with Neville's potion, - he was seen laying in his bed killing spiders. It's not as he had a history of doing serious damage to people. Note: "Stupefy" used when "Crucio" can be used is no evidence of violence, but of moderation. DE seem to use "crucio" just for fun. 4. He went and told Voldemort of what he heard about the prophecy.. and Voldie went and made the mistake of marking Harry as his equal. Snape did the talking and Voldemort did the hurting on that occasion. Snape must be a truly great Legitimens if Voldemort still trusts him after that disaster... I just love the way he omitted the problem while explaining "everything" to Bellatrix :) Shortly, up till chapter 27 of HBP Snape was an evil-mouth, not an evil-doer. Surprisingly enough, starting from chapter 28th of HBP he seems to be an evil-mouth, not an evil-doer, with all those tips he throws at Harry. Monika I-hate-chapter-27-of-HBP * The theory that AD is not to be trusted always struck me as a very bad tool for interpreting HP universe. Far too many things we "know" about wizarding world are opinions of either Dumbledore or his faithful followers. P.S. don't you think it's strange: out of six DADA teachers that were teaching Harry, three - Quirrel, Barty Crouch Jr and Snape - turned out to be Death Eaters. And only one of the other three, Remus, seemed to be competent. From imontero at iname.com Wed Jul 20 21:41:36 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:41:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's tragedy (was Snape Haters Club) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133631 fourfuries at a... wrote: > ...if you read the few excerpts available from the most recent interviews, it becomes patently obvious that Snape is evil. There is no way in the world for him to settle up with Harry. In fact, JKR says that it is now as personal between them as it is between Harry and Lord Thingy, if not more so. I have this little theory It just clicked to me when I was finishing the book. It just added up! I think that Snape actually wants to ultimately kill Voldemort. This goes so well with Jo's line of having not entirely good or bad characters. He or someone related to him is the one that left the fake thing in the bowl. I guess he might have made that magical, binding promise to this person and DD knew about it. Also I saw how he reacted to Narcissa when she begged him for help Was he thinking about his own mother? Did LV do something horrible to his mother? Did Snape swear to kill him? Does Snape want his revenge? Is this the reason why he joined the death eaters in the first place? This would give him the glory and greatness we know he wants. He would surpass Harry's level of fame. This would explain so many things! This would explain why he's become such an accomplished Occlumens, he needs to hide his true intentions from LV. All this bitterness, resentment and hate.. all this fascination for the dark arts This would explain why he was all these years with DD and why DD trusted him so much He was using DD to find the crux well, you know, the little pieces with LV souls in them. Snape hasn't attacked or tried to kill Voldemort before because he knows there are these objects that need to be neutralized before confronting him. He was resentful and mad at DD because DD was becoming weak and was turning to Harry the "boy who lived" to prepare him to kill LV instead of turning to him This would also explain why he killed DD. Snape didn't need to have DD alive to kill LV. Now more than ever he needs to be the closest he can be to Voldemort, he knows what Harry knows, he doesn't want Harry to take his revenge and glory away from him DD has become an annoyance for his plans He needed to show LV his loyalty and what better way than killing DD? He'll have back all of Voldemort's and death eaters' trust. He'll be the closest to Voldemort so he'll be the one to be there first to kill him. This explains why he hates Harry so much. It isn't only about James, it is also about the thread Harry represents for his plans of revenge. I think at certain a point, Snape has concidered using Harry to get to and kill LV. I see next book as a kind of race between Harry and Snape to kill LV The reader will see it as Snape trying to protect Voldemort but, at the end, his true intentions will be revealed, then we'll know about Snape's personal tragedy Deep down Harry and Snape are going for the same trophy. At the end they might have to reluctantly join forces to do it and Snape will die in the intent. Luna, who thinks if this theory turns out to be true, she'll have to appologize to Jo for being such a big mouth. From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Wed Jul 20 21:58:08 2005 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:58:08 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Pipin: > > I believe parallel to the question of what would make a nasty git > > like Snape serve Dumbledore, Jo is dealing with the question of what > > would make a kind and decent person choose Voldemort, and > > establishing that Lupin is indeed capable of love is part of that. > > > > Of course there won't be proof till Book Seven, if ever. But I'm > > about 99% certain now. > > Jen: First, I don't understand how if ESE!Lupin isn't confirmed in > Book 7 it would still be true. If JKR never follows that particular > storyline, it might be plausible given the information in the books, > but it would never be canon. Renee: ESE!Lupin? I'll jump into the fray! Jen, I believe Pippin is merely saying that she believes Book 7 will bring the proof. Jen: > And Book 6 generates more hurdles than support for ESE!Lupin, from > what I read. The introduction of Fenrir as the werewolf Death Eater is > in opposition to Lupin in canon. A man who was bitten and chose to > turn his trauma into a life of evil actions. > > Whereas Lupin, despite his traumatic childhood and lifetime curse, > continues to choose a life of humanity---having friendships, teaching > others, furthering a cause and, the big leap in this book, allowing > himself to be vulnerable through intimate love with another person. > > And most of the other werewolves Remus is living amongst have also > chosen Voldemort's side over the WW! He calls him 'his equals' but > then 'sounded a little bitter'--this isn't work he enjoys or perhaps > even feels is productive. He understands why a person living on > the 'margins of society' might choose to side with Voldemort, even if > he himself hasn't made that choice. He knows it will be very hard to > persuade them otherwise. > > To find out Lupin is acting like all the rest of the werewolves in > Potterverse would be a bit ho-hum. It's much more interesting to trace > why he *didn't* chose the path the others did, and I very much think > DD allowing him to attend Hogwarts, and his friendship with the > Marauders, very much influenced Lupin's later choices as outlined > above. Renee: Book 6 is quite obviously about love. And not just romantic love; we see all kinds of it, including Hagrid's sincere love for a monstrous spider. One of the points of the werewolf subplot, IMO, is to tell us how Lupin would most likely have ended up without the love of Dumbledore and his Marauder friends. The fact that he calls them his equals shows that he's keenly aware of this: basically, he's not different; but for the grace of Dumbledore and his friends, he would be one of them. One of the chief characteristics of Voldemort is, that he never knew love. The redeeming grace of Draco Malfoy is, that he loves his parents (and I'll admit here that I was wrong about him!), which is the reason why Dumbledore does his utmost to talk him out of committing murder. Love is what makes the difference. Murdering someone will cost you a piece of your soul and dehumanise you (symbolical message of the Horcrux device). Murdering as many people as Lupin has done according the ESE theory would have rendered him virtually incapable of love. Yes, a kind and decent person can choose Voldemort, but if he doesn't turn away from him in an early stage, such a person will not remain kind and decent, because the things Voldemort makes him do will kill his capacity for love. And then, I have this weird little theory that JKR has been following the ESE!Lupin debate on this list and decided to do somthing about it. :) IIRC, the ESE!Lupin theory was born when Pippin suddenly saw Lupin - dealing chocolate on the Hogwarts Express - as a metaphor for a paedophile. Now my little theory is that JKR knew this and countered it in HBP by throwing in Greyback, the real paedophile metaphor, the truly evil werewolf who preys on little children in order to damage them for life. Renee From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:58:23 2005 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:58:23 -0000 Subject: Thoughts, observations and questions on HPB In-Reply-To: <42DD7F51.000032.05648@PC321527988155> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133633 Message 133219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mindy" wrote: > > Hi, it's Mindy from Brooklyn, NY checking in. > > Snip< > My observations on the book as a whole: > >Snip< > The Half-Blood Prince was just a red herring. It was just a title, a small part of the plot. I kept waiting for it to be a main plot in the book, but it never was. That was bothersome too. *****\(@@)/***** In a round about way this book did concern Snape - certainly more of his story than we have seen before. I think the main plot of the book, as always is Harry. ***** >Mindy: > In typical Mindy fashion, I read the last chapters first and was so > thoroughly disgusted I wanted to throw the book down then and there! But I did read it and did enjoy it. I am not so disturbed by Dumbledore's death and there has to be a real reason for JKR doing it - which we shall have to hang tight for two years to discover. *****\(@@)/***** I know several people who did exactly as you did! I cannot bring myself to do that because the "getting there" is one of the biggest thrills of reading for me. Definitely JKR has a reason for DD's death/sacrifice. This is, after all, her story and imagination and we have been invited to share it with her, not write it with her. I would love to have the last book tomorrow but certainly the wait will make reading the last book so enjoyable! ***** >Mindy: > What I did like about the book though: > > * Draco has become more human and I actually feel sorry for him now. *****\(@@)/***** I wonder at being shown suddenly how piteous Draco is. I see Draco having a chance of redemption and as DD said it was all about the choices we make. It will be interesting to see what happens to Draco. ***** >Mindy: > * I was so happy that Dumbledore and Harry got to spend so much time together the entire year - it was a really fitting goodbye. It would havve been > awful had Dumbledore gotten killed in the fourth or fifth book when they didnt spend that much time together. *****\(@@)/***** I got the sense that DD knew his time might be up and that Harry is old enough and strong enough to handle a lot of the information he needed to pass on. Also I felt he was definitely testing Harry when he had Harry retrieve the memory from Slughorn. Obviously DD is talented enough to finagle or trick someone into giving the memory so there would be no point to Harry doing it unless DD had something to impart to Harry. And Harry passed with flying colors! ***** >Mindy: > Did anyone else notice that: > > * Harry never got his wand back at the end of the book? *****\(@@)/***** US p605 Harry did find his wand amongst the dirt and twigs just before he went to help Hagrid. (I had to really look and nearly missed it!) ***** >Mindy: > * Slughorn referred to Ron as RUPERT in Hagrid's shack - isnt that > hysterical? It was probably intentional by JKR, no? *****\(@@)/***** I think this time she put several little touches in like that. I so love her humor! ***** >Mindy: > Unanswered questions I have - if these have not yet been answered can someone try answerin them for me please? thanks. > > * Why did Dumbledore finally give Snape the DADA job if he refused to give it to him each year? Did he have a feeling there would be no school the next year or Snape would have to leave somehow? Wasnt Snape afraid to take a jinxed job? *****\(@@)/**** Snape did say that DD didn't want him too close to the Dark Arts in case he would be tempted. However, I think DD had a purpose in letting Snape finally have the job. Certainly he would known that things were coming to a head and certain outcomes were going to happen. I just have the strongest feeling that DD and Snape may have had a pact to do just what they did if certain events took place. And certainly we must say the DADA job is jinxed because Snape didn't last out the year! ***** >Mindy: > * Why did DD look for Snape so urgently when he got back from that cave? *****\(@@)/***** I think DD knew he was on borrowed time and he needed Snape there to prevent Draco from completing the deed and sealing his fate - DD has given Draco a chance at redemption. I think DD knew far more what was going on at Hogwarts then he ever revealed and knew this would be the outcome... ***** >Mindy: > * Dumbledore appeared to already know about about horcruxes since he kept running around looking of them. So - why drive harry nuts to find the memory if he knows what a horcrux is? *****\(@@)/***** Again, I had the sense that DD was training and testing Harry. DD was one of the most accomplished wizards of the time and could have gotten the information himself, but how would that have helped Harry, especially if Harry ends up alone as he has? Harry needs to learn to stand on his own feet and DD has shown him how. ***** >Mindy: > * why didnt Harry take the Felix Felicis before setting out for the cave? how did dd know where the cave is? *****\(@@)/***** I think there was a very limited amount of the Felix Felicis available and Harry gave it to those he perceived would need it more. He was after all with DD and trusted that DD would see them through anything. ***** >Mindy: > * DD didnt get smashed and bloodied from such a high fall? He looked whole.. *****\(@@)/***** I think he did - US pp 608-609. DD was spread-eagled with arms and legs at strange angles and had a trickle of blood from his mouth. ***** >Mindy: > *What really happened to his hand? It got injured when he picked up the ring? *****\(@@)/***** I think the hand got injured when DD destroyed the Horcrux within the ring (which doesn't bode well for poor Harry if he has to destroy them too) ***** >Mindy: > * I'm finding it very hard to believe that Lord Voldemort really entrusted a 16 yr old underage wizard the task of killing the biggest wizard ever- didn't he think he'd chicken out the way he did? > aren't there enchantments in the castle to prevent things like the vanishing cabinet to be used? *****\(@@)/***** I definitely think LV was punishing Lucius by making Draco do this task. Also it was another way of bringing Draco into the fold. I think the DEs had to do terrible things to prove to LV they were trustworthy. How perverted to use a child.....especially since LV must have know that Draco would probably fail. The cabinet was broken and of little to no use until Malfoy realized its connection with the one in the shop and repaired it. Also because the cabinet was found in the Room of Requirement I would imagine Malfoy got there by desiring to get to items that were no longer working or of no use. ***** >Mindy: > * Where is this mysterious house that Snape was in? Isn't he in Hogwarts all summer? *****\(@@)/***** I would assume Spinners End is a family home of Snape. We don't really know what the teachers do during the summer but I would imagine they don't necessarily stay at the school unless like Trelawney it is actually their home. ***** Mindy: > How was polyjuice potion so readily available in the potions class? Whose hair was in it, and how could Crabbe and Goyle be 2 different girls if it was one polyjuice? Too farfetched to me... > Mindy *****\(@@)/***** Obviously Slughorn brewed it for his Potions demonstration, but I bet he never dreamed anyone would take some. The item of the person you wish to imitate is added just before the potion is drunk so all Draco had to do was give Crabbe and Goyle their portions with different first year girl's hair/or other item in it. I bet they were not in on what Draco was really doing and were extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed! Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** > > From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 22:05:31 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:05:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ce01c58d77$25e69420$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133634 As to Harry's reaction, and Harry's perceptions of Snape more generally, this is actually the point that I find most strongly *supportive* of the theory that Snape remained loyal to Dumbledore. Possibly the most recurrent subplot in the books is Harry's suspicions of Snape, and how he always misinterprets the motives behind Snape's actions. Is it possible that Snape has somehow become completely transparent to Harry? It seems immensely more likely that in his (mutual) animosity toward Snape, Harry is missing something. -- Matt Sherry now: If Snape is evil, as I now wholeheartedly believe, then Harry's distrust of him in all previous books will be proved to be correct, an instinct we should all have trusted before now. Wouldn't that be a kick? It turns out that Harry's gut instinct was right all along, and not Dumbledore's? I can imagine JKR being highly amused by that, or at least I would be. This doesn't even negate the fact that it was Quirrel in PS/SS. After all, Snape didn't know his master was back. But his actions in the shrieking shack and after in POA, the disastrous occlumency lessons in OOTP, have never seemed like good Snape pointers to me. Remember Harry felt like the lessons made his problem worse, not better. Could this have been an indication that he was right to doubt Snape all along, and not just that he was a teenage brat refusing to follow instructions? I just think that in the end, if Snape is ESE, then Harry's feelings throughout the series have been right every step of the way. Sherry From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 22:05:57 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:05:57 -0000 Subject: Slytherin House Victorious!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133635 Betsy Hp wrote: >>How much did I love Draco *finally* getting some of his own back with a helpless Harry? Probably a bit more than is entirely ethical.<< HunterGreen: I have to admit liking that scene too, even though I'm not a Draco fan. Harry was really asking for it by sneaking into their compartment and spying on them, I can't see Draco even going that far (Harry was acting rather Snape-like in HBP wasn't he?). Considering that Draco was with Voldemort by that point, Harry was lucky he only did what he did (pretty mild, compared to what he could have got away with. I was really worried he was going to steal the invisibility cloak). Betsy Hp: >>And how incredibly cool was Draco throughout the book? His family is in danger and he sacrifices *everything*, quidditch, his schoolwork, his obsession with Potter, to try and save them. Plus, he was incredibly clever with the vanishing cabinet idea. And he was very good to keep his friends as ignorant of his delimma as he could, even when he was falling apart from the pressure. And he dropped his wand in the end! Yay!<< HunterGreen: He really was. By the end I felt really sorry for the poor kid. Narcissa was right, I'm sure Voldemort only gave him that task to punish him for Lucious failing at the DoM. Even Voldemort hasn't suceeded in killing Dumbledore, but he sends a sixteen-year-old to do it? The surprising part was that Draco actually could have suceeded, he came up with a really good plan. But Draco isn't evil, at least not yet. He was working for Voldemort out of fear, which is in line with what we've been told about his followers. If only Draco had a few more minutes with Dumbledore before the Death Eaters made it to the tower, than things might have gone a lot different for him. I can't wait to see him in book 7. Betsy Hp: >>Slughorn was great! I loved the Slug club, and I loved how much insight he gave us on Lily. So Lily would have made a good Slytherin, eh? Harry came by it honestly! (See? Slytherin is *so* JKR's second favorite house.)[snip] (Plus, total hints that Lily and Severus were study buddies -- yay for thickening plots!)<< HunterGreen: And we have a good Slytherin! He's even friends with Dumbledore! It was nice to finally have someone be talking about young *Lily* as opposed to James. If only it extended to hearing about her friends, who still remain anonymous (I'm really starting to suspect that Snape is "that boy" who told Lily about the dementers....they were both so good in potions). Betsy Hp: >>And let's not forget Harry's new best-friend, the Half-Blood Prince.<< HunterGreen: Oh, from the moment Harry started reading that book I thought Its Snape! Its Snape!, unfortunately when it was revealed to be so, I was so distracted by the plot that it no longer seemed to matter. Betsy Hp: >>And how cool has Regulus Black become? I'm dead certain he left that "In your face, Freak-show!" note to Voldemort, which goes to show he really *was* Sirius's brother, and what a shame the two of them didn't get to fight side by side.<< HunterGreen: (LOL!!) Yes, he's got some of that Black Family Moxy. With Sirius and Tonks and Andromeda and now Regulus, they're starting to not seem so dark. (we don't know for sure, of course, that its Regulus, but its very likely....we even know that Sirius had an uncle who's name started with A, Regulus Alphard Black, it fits perfectly). If it is Regulus, I can't wait for Harry to actually figure that out. Betsy Hp: >>Tonks/Lupin - Yup, the Sirius/Lupin ship has sadly been sunk but I'm quite sure it'll float on in fanon. In the meantime, Lupin gets him some lovin' and Tonks has mood-hair. What's not to love?<< HunterGreen: And we didn't have to suffer through Tonks having a crush on her own cousin. Its nice to have insight into both Lupin and Tonks in that way. Not that its surprising that Lupin would avoid romantic intanglements, but now that his best friends have either died or turned to evil, I love him having a girlfriend, its so sweet. Betsy Hp: >>Greyback - Probably JKR's most chilling villain yet. HE EATS CHILDREN!!! ON PURPOSE!! Tell me he's not an obvious stand-in for a pedophile. And he's the one who turned Lupin. I foresee a mighty payback in his future.<< HunterGreen: Oh that was so creepy. I couldn't believe it when he showed up at Hogwarts, that was unnerving. And Lupin is working undercover with him, how uncomfortable that must be. Betsty Hp: >>Voldemort's history - So *that's* what kind of family he comes from. Did anyone else get a flash-back to the X-Files' episode, "Home"?<< HunterGreen: That's *exactly* what I thought! Something about them all standing around speaking Parseltongue to each other made them seem even more, uh, inbred and strange. Voldemort is actually *lucky* that he's a half-blood, otherwise I doubt he'd have the charisma that took him so far, not to mention the looks. Betsy Hp: >> Plus, turns out Tom Riddle, Sr. was the innocent victim in all of this. Nice twist.<< HunterGreen: Yeah, I didn't see that one coming. I feel bad for Tom now, its hard to blame him for reacting badly, that was pretty ridiculous what Merope did to him, and then he gets killed by his own son for it (what a shock that must have been for him and his parents when a teenager walked in who looked just like him). I guess that's what we get for listening to Voldemort, of course he'd assume the muggle was the bad guy in the whole situation. Betsy Hp: >>And finally, Dobby vs. Kreacher - Oh my gosh, that was funny. << HunterGreen: That was really clever. Kreacher talking about Malfoy with such reverence was fantastic, I'm sure he'd *love* to be *their* house- elf, even if they treated him badly (which he thinks Sirius and Harry are doing anyway). Its a lot easier to take one or two house-elf scenes than a whole book sprinkled with them (anyone else happy with the seeming death of SPEW?). >>Overall, I was well pleased with HBP. Yay, JKR!<< I liked it so much more than OotP. So much backstory on Voldemort (way more than I thought she'd give us) and such an interesting plot, and no months where the whole school hates or fears Harry, it was my favorite since Azkaban. I'm both looking forward to book 7 and fearing the end of the series now. Just one left! -Rebecca / HunterGreen From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:05:23 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:05:23 -0000 Subject: Love, pining, and magic (was: Women in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133636 anthyroserain wrote: "But Merope pines too, and Dumbledore states, "Of course, it is also possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers; that can happen." But does it ever happen to *men*? The idea that a woman's desires get in the way of her professional abilities is an old, decidedly anti-feminist one. Surely JKR doesn't mean to suggest this, so why are her examples all female?" Del replies: Maybe because in Book 7, it will happen to one terribly important male: Harry himself? The concept that love is more powerful than any other magic is recurrent in the books, and particularly in HBP. So I wouldn't be surprised if Harry discovered in Book 7 that he *needs* to have *more* love in his life, not less, to defeat LV. He might discover that by ditching Ginny, he actually cut himself from one of his most powerful assets: romantic love, and that in order to be at his best, he *must* experience his love for Ginny, and her love back, *fully*. And in the meantime, he might have problems practicing any other kind of magic, because he pines for Ginny. Random question: what would happen if someone fed LV a Love Potion? Del From ngermany at excite.com Wed Jul 20 22:09:09 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:09:09 -0000 Subject: The Fate of DD/Snape studies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133637 The posts are coming to fast for me to read them all. Excuse this if my thought has already been posted. It would be out of character for DD to play some kind of trick regarding his death. Too many people are greiving from his loss. Such an act would show those that he loved great disrespect. A horcrux has been mentioned but neither would he perform that kind of dark magic. In fact, he expressed surprise that someone would go to such lengths during an earlier chapter. You know, its curious to me that we were shown little of what took place during DADA classes. I only recall one mention of Snape tormenting Harry during the year. Any thoughts? Elisabeththedragonslayer From avery at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 20 22:04:36 2005 From: avery at u.washington.edu (Avery Ke) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:04:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050720220435.GC21194@gesh.kejia> No: HPFGUIDX 133638 ladyljd wrote: >Like I said, I'm bitter! The thrill is gone. If you've made it this >far, please let me know your thoughts on my ranting. And thanks!! Made it through your email about Snape. Don't buy it, simply because you aren't, and I'm not, and none of us (so far as I know ) are JKR. For me, and I say this quite seriously, book 7 will make sense -- whatever is in it -- after I've read it. For both HP5 and HP6, my response has been to read the previous books again, overlaying my knowledge from the newest book onto my experience of the previous books. I almost regret reading the HP books before the series is finished. Imagine reading LOTR as the books were published. Aragorn and Arwin -- c'mon, she's boring! I think he'll get together with Eowyn. Eomer? He's bound to meet a cute elf from Galadriel's forest, and as for Gimli and Legolas... And so on... since I read LOTR as a unit, I accepted the ships and the events. We know now that Gandalf returns, but the original readers did not. I put my trust in JKR -- her writing that is, not necessarily her interviews which might be intentionally or unintentionally deceptive . It'll make sense to me in the end, and if it's not necessarily what I would have chosen, then I'll get over it. With book characters as with friends, in the end you have to love the person even when you deplore his or her (or their:) actions. Avery (a Purple Pygmy Puff on another list :) From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 20 22:19:39 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:19:39 -0000 Subject: Women in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133639 Sienna wrote: > > The part where the author really lost me was when Ginny snaps at > > Hermione and tells her not to embarrass herself. For me it was too > > much about how an attractive girl (who fits into and understands a > > mans world - ie quidditch) is more desireable and worthy than an > > intelligent girl who lacks in social graces and physical beauty. Rachael now: I read that as nothing more than Ginny standing up for Harry when he has a crush on her, which is why it makes him so happy. I really didn't see it as having anything to do with "an attractive girl fitting into a man's world." anthyroserain wrote: > I thought it would have taken far more courage and been more > interesting on JKR's part if Fleur was the one whose looks were > destroyed by a werewolf attack, yet Bill still chose to stick with > her. After all, who thought Fleur was interested in Bill for his > looks? Rachael now: Actually, we're told right from GoF that Bill is a very attractive guy and that Fleur is checking him out (before the final task). And I think it wouldn't have had quite the impact if it was Bill chose to stay with her because we clearly told that he is a stand-up guy and Fleur is the one that is questionable to the reader. anthyroserain wrote: > On another, related topic: I'm quite used by now to JKR using > physical characteristics as a signal of inner characteristics, which > is something that has always disturbed me very much. Unattractive > (not just not pretty) people in HP almost invariably possess mainly > negative characteristics. (On the other hand, sometimes she does > include beautiful evil people, like Tom Riddle and Bellatrix.) Fat > people in HP are always greedy and self-indulgent-- this stereotype > has been going on unchanged since the first book. I hope this is > simply shorthand and lazy writing on JKR's part, not what she > actually believes. Rachael now: But the viewpoint we get about people's looks are Harry's views. Looking at the characters objectively, there are several unattractive people on the good side and several attractive on the bad. Hermione is the one that gets my attention first. She is never described as being pretty, except in the Yule Ball scene. If it wasn't for the fact that she is one of Harry's best friends, she could be described as that bushy-haired girl that kind of looks like a chipmunk. Also, Neville, McGonagall, Flitwick, and Moody definitely aren't described to be the most attractive people. Malfoy and Pansy are 2 "bad" characters that are probably very attractive, but Harry sees them in a bad light, so they're not to us. I could name a "fat" character who is definitely not seen as greedy and self-indulgent: Molly Weasley. I love her, but we know she's not a skinny woman. Also, Fred, George, and Charlie are all described as stocky. Neville's another chubby boy. The point is, people's personalities play a HUGE role in how we view them on every level, especially physically. WHen you dislike someone, you often pick at their faults, and since the entire series is from Harry's viewpoint, if Harry doesn't like someone, he describes them in unattractive terms. anthyroserain wrote: This is actually my biggest complaint about the series. I love the > Harry Potter books, and I love JKR's writing, and I am constantly > amazed with the books. It's just a niggling thing that has always > bothered me. And as far as representations of women go, up until > HBP, I thought JKR's depictions were quite progressive and > feminist. Rachael: I continue to see them as progressive and feminist (and believe me, I'm a staunch feminist). The only problem is that once you throw in love and relationships, many women feel like that shows a dependency on men, which is not the case. The women in the book choose to be with the men they are with, so there's nothing anti-feminist about that. Rachael From prep0strus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 21:44:52 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (Adam Corbett) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:44:52 -0000 Subject: Ron & Hermione's Early Secrets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133640 It's obviously difficult to get through all the posts, but I don't think this has been addressed (I may be missing something obvious) with all the more exciting mysteries towards the end... When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, Ron & Hermione have obviously been discussing his situation, but seem much more reluctant to talk to him than they have in the past. Has anyone picked up on what they could be referring to? When they're talking about him being 'off with Dumbledore', Ron starts to say what he and Hermione thought might've been going on, but she stops him. And they're pretty weird with him for quite some time (even with not believing him about Draco - in the past, Hermione has been much more ready to pick up on subtle clues, and Ron always wants to believe the worst of a Slytherin - this seemed very strange as well). I was wondering if anyone had a clue what they were thinking - did they think Dumbledore had taken him to battle Voldemorte? Did they think Harry might be the next D.A.D.A. teacher? Did they think he's found a way to communicate with Sirius? I really have no idea, but want some explination for his friends' oddness starting out this story. Also, it's been addressed some, but I think it was definately very odd how students were used as a messenger service in this book. Never before has this been so prominent, with so little apparent purpose. As I'm mostly a lurker, who can't keep up with posts enough to post myself, I'll end with one of my favorite lines from the book, since I also haven't seen it pop up yet... "I'm tall," said Ron inconsequentially. Prep0strus From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 22:29:58 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:29:58 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > Newbie here, needing to vent. Apologies in advance ... > > After finishing HBP, I remain frustrated and bitter even after a few > days of reflection. The destruction of both of my favorite Potter > characters was bad enough. (Who knew one would murder the other?!) > But this is only the first stab in the heart. The knife twists by > revealing the murderer to be deliberately evil rather than the > anti-hero I believed him to be. And finally salt is poured in the > wound by the planting of confusing clues designed to feed hope for > redemption that will never come. > > > Like I said, I'm bitter! The thrill is gone. If you've made it this > far, please let me know your thoughts on my ranting. And thanks!! > > Ljd Janeway: Yes!! Finally someone who sees it the way I do. Reading HBP I was shocked at how simple it had all become. So many possible twists/ character developments/ plotlines from previous books had been abandoned. By the time I finished I was telling myself to ignore any "subtle clues" that pointed to any conclusion but the obvious: Snape is a traitor. He now has the opportunity in book 7 to be "redeemed" by Harry's love, or Lily's love, or something like that, and he may even strike the final blow against LV (a la Gollum) -- but he's not going to turn out to be a misunderstood antihero. The only thing I would add to your predictions/analysis is that DD's reason for trusting Snape will turn out to have been a very good one. It will be true, it will make emotional sense, and it will justify DD's judgment -- except that Snape will have chosen to act in contradiction to it. Whatever this reason is will also be what brings about Snape's redemption in the end. This will show that DD's decision to trust him, despite the sacrifice it required, was not in vain. (An example would be: although Snape hated James, his only friend at HWs was Lily and he was deeply remorseful that he had contributed to her death by passing on the prophecy. He even tried to prevent her being killed by telling LV to let her go. However, ultimately he let his hatred of James win out over his respect for Lily, something which DD could not know. But, at the last moment during the final showdown, Harry will once again be saved by his mother's love when Snape sees Lily in Harry's eyes and with his last act turns on LV... something like that.) JMO, Janeway From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 20 22:37:26 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:37:26 -0000 Subject: Love, pining, and magic (was: Women in HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > anthyroserain wrote: > "But Merope pines too, and Dumbledore states, "Of course, it is also > possible that her unrequited love and the attendant despair sapped her > of her powers; that can happen." But does it ever happen to *men*? The > idea that a woman's desires get in the way of her professional > abilities is an old, decidedly anti-feminist one. Surely JKR doesn't > mean to suggest this, so why are her examples all female?" > > Del replies: > Maybe because in Book 7, it will happen to one terribly important > male: Harry himself? > The concept that love is more powerful than any other magic is > recurrent in the books, and particularly in HBP. So I wouldn't be > surprised if Harry discovered in Book 7 that he *needs* to have *more* > love in his life, not less, to defeat LV. He might discover that by > ditching Ginny, he actually cut himself from one of his most powerful > assets: romantic love, and that in order to be at his best, he *must* > experience his love for Ginny, and her love back, *fully*. And in the > meantime, he might have problems practicing any other kind of magic, > because he pines for Ginny. Iris now: Very interesting idea, indeed. He was "weak" the first time he defeated Voldemort, but full of the love he had received. It would be beautiful if he happened to loose part of his powers because of love, but finally managed to defeat Voldemort again. There's much to say about love, men and women in HBP. And I think that, although JK Rowling plays apparently with clich?s , she doesn't necessarily buy on them. > > Random question: what would happen if someone fed LV a Love Potion? > Oooh! Very good question. Maybe he would drow himself in the Mirror of Erised, fascinated by his own ego? But on another hand, who would dare feed him the Love Potion, knowing its effects? Look at Ron's reaction after taking Romilda's Love Potion... Can you imagine a similar scene between Voldemort and Harry, or Snape, or Wormtail, or Draco, or Hermione? And do you think Voldemort's big red eyes would be heart-shaped? Amicalement, Iris From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:37:49 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:37:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the poison(?) potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133643 > "ar_hp03" >wrote: > I was just discussing Dumbledore's reaction after drinking the >potion > at the cave with a friend and it suddenly struck me that his >reactions > seem to be something similar to what we see when people face > dementors, ie., being forced to re-live their worst memories. In >the > book it appears that Dumbledore is somehow being forced to re-live >his > worst memories. I think the potion is KEY to understanding what happens to DD afterwards and poses some VERY BIG questions about the locket. For those interested in this line of enquiry, I have posted a TBAY. Don't worry, if you can't stand TBAY speak, the theory is written straight and is easy to find. Message 133414 : TBAY: DRASTIC LIST DREAD SINKING It brings up some big questions which I'm not totally satisfied with how I've answered, but the big problem to me is that if RAB did substitute the locket, the potion in the bowl is his not Voldemort's. Apoligies to the List Elves for effectively reposting my original post, something I'd never normally do. But I don't think people interested in the thread have picked it up, probably due to list volume. Saraquel From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 20 22:46:19 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:46:19 -0700 Subject: Snape's bravery? Message-ID: <00df01c58d7c$d8bf6450$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133644 I have read hundreds of posts in the last couple days, proclaiming that Snape's anger when Harry called him a coward was because he had just done the brave deed of murder. Ok, I do realize that these posts were based on the idea that Snape didn't want to do it but had to for some higher goal or purpose. I've already stated my doubts that DD would ever have asked Snape to commit murder because of the soul damage. So, about killing DD being brave, I find this amazing, truly I do. No matter what secret plan Dumbledore and Snape could have hatched up, how can it be considered brave to cold bloodedly murder the one person who has believed in you and trusted you? It would be true bravery to have died rather than do it, in my opinion. From what I've read, it seems that many feel DD and Snape had this plan so that Draco wouldn't be a murderer. Ok, that's nice. We don't want a 16 year old boy to become a murderer. Snape's unbreakable vow means he has to kill Dumbledore or die himself. What would have been the truly brave and noble thing to do? Die by not fulfilling his vow! Then the death eaters would have killed Dumbledore? The one thing I never thought for a moment was that just because DD didn't have a wand didn't mean he couldn't have defended himself. Even in his weakened state, I think he could have handled the death eaters or summoned Fawkes. But of course, he wouldn't have left both Harry and Draco there. It is likely that Dumbledore would possibly still have died. I just cannot buy that Snape's killing Dumbledore rather than dying himself was any kind of act of bravery or honor. It seemed downright cowardly and abominable to me. On a different note, because this will use up my third message of the day, several people have said that Snape knew about the Horcruxes? Did I spell that right? Is there anything in the book that says he did? Dumbledore told Harry not to tell anyone but Ron and Hermione, to the point that he wouldn't even tell McGonigal at the end. Would DD have told Snape about them? I am curious. Sherry From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 22:46:57 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:46:57 -0000 Subject: Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133645 Yes Fleur has her fault's, she is vain and all that, but I wonder if you have fewer faults than she does because my good opinion of her increased about 10,000 % in the last pages of the new book when she spoke about her heroic but hideously disfigured future husband Bill. There is no other way to interpret it, despite her flaws (do you have fewer?) Fleur is a class act, a magnitude one first rate award winning class act. Does anybody disagree? Eggplant From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:47:44 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:47:44 -0000 Subject: Feminism (was: Love, pining, and magic (was: Women in HBP)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133646 > Del replies: > Maybe because in Book 7, it will happen to one terribly important > male: Harry himself? > > The concept that love is more powerful than any other magic is > recurrent in the books, and particularly in HBP. So I wouldn't be > surprised if Harry discovered in Book 7 that he *needs* to have *more* > love in his life, not less, to defeat LV. He might discover that by > ditching Ginny, he actually cut himself from one of his most powerful > assets: romantic love, and that in order to be at his best, he *must* > experience his love for Ginny, and her love back, *fully*. And in the > meantime, he might have problems practicing any other kind of magic, > because he pines for Ginny. > > Random question: what would happen if someone fed LV a Love Potion? Oh, wow, your random question made me giggle. He'd probably end up killing the girl for not requiting his love. Anyway, on to the actual point of this post: I'm going to put my neck out and ask if anyone else here is becoming slightly irritated at all the anti-feminist JKR opinion? Not to say anyone is wrong, but... JKR was a working single mother, who isn't in contact with her eldest daughter's father, and who was on the dole for a few years. She was rejected by publishers numerous times. She speaks out for Amnesty, funds multiple charities, and is an overall philanthropist. She's succeeded entirely on her own merit, and is now more wealthy than Elizabeth II. How on earth is this woman anti-feminist? I shall expound on my thoughts. I've noticed this thread began with a discussion on how Ginny's reprimanding Hermione was an actual display of conservative thought. Now, I've never been in the burning bras camp, but I am most decidely a feminist, in the women-can-do-anything-a- men-can-do-how-dare-we-be-stereotyped-into-certain-social-roles kind of way. And as far as I was concerned, Ginny shooting Hermione down in that moment was great, Hermione was being annoying. Not because she's overly intelligent, but because she was castrating Harry for doing something, though not moral, at least unintentional. Plus, it was about Malfoy after he tried to hit Harry with the Cruciatus Curse. It was stupid of Harry to try a hex he had no knowledge about, I totally agree, but he already felt terrible about it, and Hermione was displaying, in my opinion, a moment of insensitivety, which is common for her when she feels she is absolutely in the right. Hermione can be extremely annoying, which has nothing to do with her being a girl, and is something I don't like to admit, because I've been called a Hermione numerous times by many of my own friends. And I didn't see Ginny only described physically, and I did not understand the argument that her looks are why Harry likes her. We've seen Harry when he only likes a girl based on looks alone. Cho Chang rings a bell, and she made Harry rather unhappy. Harry actually spends time with Ginny, he talks to her, hangs out with her, spends time around her with the Weasleys and the trio. He is not attracted to her only because of her looks, if that were the case, I think he would have noticed her long before the Dean/Ginny moment. And Fleur being the beautiful fiance figure is irrelevant to me, as I gathered the end scene with Bill occurred to assure Molly that Fleur does genuinely love him, and that it isn't a shallow whimsy, which I think is what Molly wanted to believe. The Tonks argument seems silly to me, as Tonks is probably the cliche feminist example: the girl competing with men in a traditionally masculine vocation, and falling in love with the troubled, albeit good, though weaker man. I don't mean this diatribe as a pro-Harry/Ginny anything, more like a pro-JKR invective. I agree with Del, as far as I think Harry will need more love in the next book, and his whole hero-complex of isolating himself from those he loves can't possibly help him. But even Harry defends himself from Hermione's feminist posturing: when she accuses him of thinking the HBP can't possibly be a girl, he becomes understandably offended, and reminds her that he has been one of her best friends over the last five years, loves her, and knows her, and by knowing her how it isn't possible to think women are not just as capable as men (I'm paraphrasing). I understand not liking the ships in HBP. I understand being annoyed with JKR's constant literary device of outward characteristics reflecting the inward (though I have always taken this in stride - it's a common enough device in much of young adult literature). But thinking JKR not a feminist? I don't get that one. And I'm 99% sure she'd agree with me. Adair From torigyrl at aol.com Wed Jul 20 22:43:47 2005 From: torigyrl at aol.com (torigyrl at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:43:47 EDT Subject: Snape in Spinner's End and Snape in OOTP Message-ID: <7f.62644477.30102da3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133647 I am currently on my second reading of HBP. I finished re-reading Spinner's End and I noticed an omission by Rowling. Obviously Snape isn't going to talk about his involvement with the DOM in front of Narcissa and Bellatrix. However, Rowling doesn't seem to be addressing this(along with -many- other things) anywhere in the rest of the book. HBP US Pg. 25 Bellatrix "..."Where were you a few weeks ago when we battled to retrieve the prophecy for the Dark Lord?" Pg. 29 "There is no point apportioning blame," said Snape smoothly. "What is done, is done." "But not by you!" said Bellatrix furiously. "No, you were once again absent while the rest of us ran dangers, were you not Snape?" "My orders were to remain behind," said Snape. "Perhaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, perhaps you think that Dumbledore would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the Death Eaters to fight the Order of the Phoenix? And-forgive me-you speak of dangers...you were facing six teenagers, were you not?" "They were joined, as you very well know, by half of the Order before long!" snarled Bellatrix And here is the glaring omission >From OOTP US Pg. 744 and 745 in Umbridge's Office "His cold, dark eyes were boring into Harry's, who met his gaze unflinchingly, concentrating hard on what he had seen in his dream, willing Snape to read it in his mind, to understand..." again on Pg. 745 "He's got Padfoot!" [Harry] shouted. "He's got Padfoot at the place where it's hidden!" Snape had stopped with his hand on Umbridge's door handle. Pg. 830 Dumbledore "You see, when you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning, he realized that you had had a vision of Sirius trapped in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries. He, like you, attempted to contact Sirius at once. I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place." Dumbledore continues "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once." This raises a few questions. If he was on Voldemort's orders to stay behind why did he contact the Order at all? Or why check on Sirius at all? Did he know about the plan involving Kreatcher, Bellatrix and Narcissa? If he had known about this plan then he would have known that Harry was being intentionally misled for Voldemort's purpose. So why interfere with his Dark Lord's plans? It was because of Snape's contacting members of the order that they arrived at the DOM in the first place. That throws a large wrench in his supposed Dark Lord's works. Voldemort obviously isn't aware of Snape's role in contacting Dumbledore or Snape would have been AK'd the next time he appeared in front of Voldemort. This contradicts the impression that Rowling is trying to make about Severus in Spinner's End. Yes he was a double agent and a nasty person, but Snape -really- didn't have to contact the order. He could have just told Dumbledore that he followed up on what Harry had said by contacting Sirius and found that Sirius was fine. I thought this book was supposed to be about answers and not more red herrings. Tori [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From torigyrl at aol.com Wed Jul 20 22:50:15 2005 From: torigyrl at aol.com (torigyrl at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:50:15 EDT Subject: Snape & the Order; Snape & Lily; predictions... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133648 Rosmerta writes >>I think it's clear that Snape is still on the side of good, however it may look to Harry. Even when Dumbledore first asks for Severus on returning from the cave, I think it's so Snape can end his agony - not to brew him some healing potion. << I think it might be far more possible that given Severus Snape's brilliance at potions that Snape made the potion. We don't really know what Snape did as a DE or what he told Dumbledore about his time as a DE. Tori [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 20 22:55:48 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:55:48 -0000 Subject: Women in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachaelmcadams" wrote: < snip most part of a very convincing post, with which I agree totally> > anthyroserain wrote: > This is actually my biggest complaint about the series. I love the > > Harry Potter books, and I love JKR's writing, and I am constantly > > amazed with the books. It's just a niggling thing that has always > > bothered me. And as far as representations of women go, up until > > HBP, I thought JKR's depictions were quite progressive and > > feminist. > > Rachael: > I continue to see them as progressive and feminist (and believe me, > I'm a staunch feminist). The only problem is that once you throw in > love and relationships, many women feel like that shows a dependency > on men, which is not the case. The women in the book choose to be > with the men they are with, so there's nothing anti-feminist about > that. > Iris now: I agree on that too. The matter is that in this new book, JK Rowling explores the different meanings of love,and that she goes from its more trivial or common representations to its higher aspects. In other words, it starts with teenagers or members of a same family bickering because biological inclinations or becase of prejudices, and it ends with the spiritual dimension of love. Between the two extremities, you can find nearly all the notes of teh stave, and they go crescendo as Dumbledore and Harry sing their duo. It's at the same time simple and rather complex, as it ties up with the idea of choice. May as it be, I agree with you, there's no anti-feminist connotation in that book, in spite of what it looks like at first glance. After all, doesn't the hero himself see the world through his so feminine mother's eyes? Amicalement, Iris From aidil7lls at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:51:06 2005 From: aidil7lls at yahoo.com (lady_aidil) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:51:06 -0000 Subject: Why Half-Blood Prince? was: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133650 > Clio replied: > >>[snip] > What kind of person would write such a silly name in a school > textbook, anyways? > HunterGreen: > Perhaps Snape didn't know being Half-Blood was something to be > ashamed of when he came up with the title. Its not long his mother > would have told him 'we're dirty half-bloods' when it was her that > married a muggle. But, I suppose even that is unlikely, because he > most likely heard it from somewhere. But if he came up with the nasme > at a young age, it could easily been before he became a proud > Slytherin pureblood enthusiast. I think it was his very personal textbook,kind of the spell and potion diary,not for eyes of anybody else,probably the name could have been a kind of self-mockery,I honestly doubt he said about it even his Slytherin pars,because IMO in the House of Snake beeing poor and half-blood was always a handicap,a social flaw,without doubt he was aware of this from the very beginning.The pompous name as the secret nick suits this rather pathetic teenager we saw in Pensieve in OOTP,he probably was inhibited and insecure.I don`t think the adult Snape thought about himself as HBD,what he said Harry it was rather confirmation of the fact-"yes it is me-HBD who wrote comments in the book". Lady Aidil From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:57:08 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:57:08 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lexa_C" wrote: > He may have invented Sectumsempra, but teenaged revenge fantasies > are one thing, actually doing it is another. We don't have an > indication that Snape used it ? not even against Lupin in trying to > save his own life. What do you think the cutting curse that hit James in the face in the Pensieve scene was, then? It's far better controlled than Harry's use of it on Draco, but it's still the same curse. It's rather ironic, I think, that Snape invented the curses that then somehow spread around the school--and got used on him. I wonder now if it was also his ankle-dangling curse used on the Muggles during GoF: Lupin tells us that one was very popular during school. But having used one of his nastiest things on a childhood enemy-- that's pretty much canon. [On the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the "death was set up completely in advance" scenario more and more unlikely considering all the detailed plans DD is offering Draco; but that's another thread.] -Nora nitpicks but checked downthread first, and notes no one has taken the TOO EWWW (#132993) bait yet From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Jul 20 22:50:23 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:50:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > Like it or not, he had to do it. Of course, he damned himself by his > action, so I expect some finale type death of him in the end, but I > now believe that he'll stay on the good side (as much as he can do > that) till the end. > > Moreover, we see that Wormtail - who owes his life to Harry - and > Snape - who owes his life to Harry's father - are now together. This > will play an important role in the final showdown. > > Just MO. > Salit houyhnhnm: I was kind of a Snape fan, mainly because he *seemed* to be such a complex character--a man "not wholly bad or good". But I thought like you, that Snape might not survive on the good side after Dumbledore's death because he is the type to be loyal to an individual not a principle. And, yes, I also agree that something about the terrible deed he has been forced to commit will keep him on the good side. I personally think Dumbledore was in control to the end. We saw in PoA the extent to which he has penetrated the mystery of time. For 16 years, Dumbledore's goal has been to raise Harry to adulthood and provide him with all the knowledge he will need to defeat Voldemort. He dies as his work is completed and in a manner that manages to save a child from becoming a killer. There is no doubt in my mind that Snape is obeying Dumbledore's command to kill him, rather than Voldemort's. And he is doing it under extreme duress. I was struck between the simularities between these two passages: In the cave: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (p. 571) On the lightening-struck tower: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus ... please" Snape raised his wand... (p.595-596) On second reading it seems more likely to me that Dumbledore is not saying 'please don't kill me', but 'please do what you promised to do'. From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Wed Jul 20 22:59:07 2005 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:59:07 -0000 Subject: Slughorn: a different look at Slytherin In-Reply-To: <015E190D.6B55C273.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xirene101 at c... wrote: > One thing I noticed in HBP, and rather enjoyed, was the fact that Horace Slughorn represents a departure from the usual "evil" Slytherin students and alumni we have seen. He's not potrayed as evil, just ambitious. He is more than ready and willing to use his contacts for his own personal benefit. But he has been on the run for a year to avoid the DE's, which implies he does not want to choose their "side" in the war. > This "new" look at Slytherin house is a welcome change. Thanks, Jo! I agree - also remembering Phineas Nigellus, the other comparatively nice Slytherin we've met - and I wonder how much the usual Slytherin image has to do with Snape. With the way Snape behaves in class, he's setting a terrible example to his house members, giving them absolutely no encouragement to curb their spiteful tendencies or try to get along with students in other houses. Slughorn as housemaster would have had his weak points, but I'm sure he would at least have taught the kids manners, especially the Slug Club members he expected to climb the social ladder. He would not have expected evil from them either (although many of them still turned out that way) - look how shocked he was when Riddle asked him about Horcruxes. We don't know what proportion of adult Slytherins are Death Eaters. It might be fairly low, with a lot more gravitating towards the Ministry - people like Fudge and Crouch were probably Slytherins. Lockhart probably was too. I predict that few of the Slytherins who attended Hogwarts under Snape will rise far through Ministry ranks - unless they have gold to ease their way - because they won't have the necessary social graces. Eleanor (returning after a long lurk) From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:59:14 2005 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (rlai1977) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:59:14 -0000 Subject: And what of Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133654 > Geoff: > > As a side issue, there is still the unresolved question of the "good > > Slytherin". Nott was noticed in converse with Draco in the book so > > does this cancel some of his Brownie points? Draco was the only one among the present Slytherin house who was shown to be associating with the DEs, so I'd say everyone else in his house can be considered the so-called "good Slytherin", unless you are really talking about the "nice" Slytherin ;-) Though I've always thought it rather bizarre people were betting on Nott turning out to be *the* good Slytherin when I think he has a much bigger chance to become the bad guy you least expected. If the Slytherin house needs to be 'lead' to the light side (if such plot is even needed at all) by one of the student it would have to be by Draco, I cannot imagine Rowling sparing book 7 pagespace to develop another student leader in Slytherin from scratch. Though wouldn't you say Slughorn can do a good job making sure his kids do not go astray? He might have made certain mistakes but is overall an okay sort of bloke. Rlai From npod4291 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:11:25 2005 From: npod4291 at yahoo.com (npod4291) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:11:25 -0000 Subject: Harry and Voldemorts deeper connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133655 First off, I would just like to point out that I am new here, so if this stuff has been posted already, I apologize. Anyway, here are some things that I have come with, tell me if you think that they are possible. Harry's Ancestors There haven't been a whole lot of direct hints to this, but I still think that it is incredibly plausible. Harry is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. In CoS, he pulls Godric's sword out of the sorting hat, and even more, his parents lived in Godric's Hollow!! Plus, that would explain why it is Harry that must defeat Voldemort. History kinda repeating itself, Gryffindor vs. Slytherin. Also the colors of the spells that the two tend to use. Voldemort uses AK a lot, which is green, the color of Slytherin, while Harry uses the disarming charm, which is said to be red, the color of Gryffindor. Harry and Voldemort's Connection with the Phoenix Harry and Voldemort are the same but opposite. As Harry repeatedly notices, the two have a number of similarities. However, what the represent are polor opposites. Harry could be said to be the protector of life, while Voldemort could be the "Flight of Death" (Vol de Mort in french). "Neither can live while the other survives." Something can't be both dead and alive at the same time, or in other words, the world isnt big enough for both of them. I don't think that its a coincidence that their wands have the only two feathers from Fawkes either. I think that they represent the life a death of a phoenix, the yin and yang. It is because of this that I think Harry will defeat Voldemort wandless. How this will happen I haven't quite worked out yet, but it might be that Harry will be killed by Voldemort, this causing Voldemort to die. Voldemort's death could result in Harry being brought back to life, like the phoenix being brought back to life from the ashes of its "parent" I don't know if any of this is possible, just what I have been thinking about for the last book. Reply with your thoughts. P.S. I don't think we have seen the end of Wormtail. He is still in debt to Harry, and may play a bigger role in the final battle because of that. Npod From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:06:02 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:06:02 -0000 Subject: Feminism (was: Love, pining, and magic (was: Women in HBP)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133656 Adair wrote: > I'm going to put my neck out and ask if anyone > else here is becoming slightly irritated at all the anti-feminist JKR > opinion? Not to say anyone is wrong, but... JKR was a working single > mother, who isn't in contact with her eldest daughter's father, and who > was on the dole for a few years. She was rejected by publishers > numerous times. She speaks out for Amnesty, funds multiple charities, > and is an overall philanthropist. She's succeeded entirely on her own > merit, and is now more wealthy than Elizabeth II. How on earth is this > woman anti-feminist? anthyroserain: Well, I think I'm breaking the too-many-posts rule, but I really had to say something here. I'm not sure what you mean by "all the anti-feminist JKR opinion." All I've seen was my post, and a lot of other posts criticizing it. You're definitely in the popular camp, so no need to put your neck out. I don't believe I ever said that JKR wasn't a feminist. Certainly she is. But I do think her depictions of women in HPB come off as rather old-fashioned and cliched, and though they may not be particularly objectionable individually, as a whole I think they make an unsettling picture. - anthyroserain who by now is regretting she said anything From lealess at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:11:50 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:11:50 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > Newbie here, needing to vent. Apologies in advance ... > > After finishing HBP, I remain frustrated and bitter even after a few > days of reflection. The destruction of both of my favorite Potter > characters was bad enough. (Who knew one would murder the other?!) > But this is only the first stab in the heart. The knife twists by > revealing the murderer to be deliberately evil rather than the > anti-hero I believed him to be. And finally salt is poured in the > wound by the planting of confusing clues designed to feed hope for > redemption that will never come. > > There is no doubt in my mind now of JKR's intentions for Snape. I've > spent some time researching her interview statements over the past few > days. I'm convinced of her thought processes now. In short, Severus > Snape was never meant to be anyone's favorite character. And Albus > Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant > capacity to love. lealess I agree with you, especially after reading the first part of Rowling's interview on Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron. I have been pondering the morality of these books. The author said in her interview on the Today Show that hers are "very moral books" -- and that comment has troubled me ever since. I have been trying to work through this question for myself. If these are moral books, then the morality they reflect seems to be incredibly two-dimensional, at best. To me, Snape is the key to the morality of the whole story, and frankly, he is not only *not* showing a redemptive pattern (unless Dumbledore's death was a hoax), he seems to have been slotted into the black and white, bad or evil category, which is a limiting view of life and choice, as far as I am concerned. It will be interesting to see what happens in the seventh book, but I am not hopeful the end for Snape will be generous or enlightening for him. Rowling's comments indicate to me that Snape is hated by his creator. And if loving your fellow person is a mistake, well... lealess From karen at dacafe.com Wed Jul 20 23:12:03 2005 From: karen at dacafe.com (kmcbears1) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:12:03 -0000 Subject: It takes two - Horcrux in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133658 This may have been posted by someone else but I have to get it out of my head so I can examine other parts of the book so I choose this forum for my impossible theory (Yes I do like the character Snape, I do think he is evil but I think a Snapeless Hogwarts is going to be a little dull). On to the theory: ---- Dumbledore told Harry that it took 2 people to get the Horcrux. (At that time DD did not know it was fake.) RAB was there when the original Horcrux was retrieved. From the note, I am making the assumption that RAB drank the potion and died after retrieving the Horcrux. But ..... who was with RAB and where did he/she put the Horcrux? If we stretch our imaginations and have RAB stand for Regulus Black - dead Deatheater who was trying to leave Voldemort's service. Then suppose RAB's accomplish was also a Death Eater ... who wanted to leave. ... now the 2nd DE goes to Dumbledore to ask for help and hears the prophecy. He is thrown out of the tavern and returns to Voldemort. Now extrapolate this further and we have Voldemort planning to kill the babies born at the end of July to parents who have thrice defeated Voldemort - Harry and Neville. We know from JKR that for some reason Voldemort was after James because he was a Potter. (Was he eliminating all the pure blood / blood traitor families in alphabetical order and was on the Ps - Potter, Prewett). Did he choose Harry just because he was a Potter or was it because he identified with his blood status? - that's for another discussion. The 2nd DE learns of the plan to kill the Potter's but wait he owes a "life" debt to James. So he goes to Dumbledore and tells him of the plan, all before Harry is born. Harry is born. The Order keep the Potters safe for a year. Snape begins working at Hogwarts on "Voldemort's orders"/"Dumbledore's invitation". The Fidelius Charm is put in place. The life debt is paid and "opps - the secret keeper is Voldemort's spy and ...book 1 begins. And Snape is stuck with only DD to keep him out of Azkaban and being the atypical Slytherin that he is, Snape keeps himself safe. I know it is a weird theory but in this theroy, Snape is neither totaly Voldemort's man or Dumbledore's man. He is looking out for number 1 - Severus Snape and what every it takes to be on the winning side Snape will do in true Slytherin fashion. - Karen (kmcbears1) From smilingator81 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 23:14:07 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:14:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Handwriting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133659 Hope no one else has posted about this and I'm just reiterating things, but it's hard to keep up with the hundreds of posts. With DE running around and loved ones having to ask secret questions just to be sure they are who they say they are, I have been suspicious of all characters and their actions in this book. One thing that has stuck out in my mind is the description of Dumbledore's handwriting as "thin" and "slanting". In PS/SS, his handwriting in the note he wrote to Harry when he gave him his father's invisibility cloak was "loopy" and "narrow". If you compare the handwriting, the only thing that is the same is DD's signature in HBP and the handwriting of the note in PS/SS. Maybe I am just being picky here, but then I came across Hagrid's handwriting in HBP, when he wrote to tell the kids of Aragog's death. It looked exactly the same as it had in POA when he wrote about Buckbeak's impending execution and in PS/SS when he invited Harry over for afternoon tea. So, why has DD's handwriting changed? Just my thoughts... smilingator From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:15:16 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:15:16 -0000 Subject: Does it matter if Snape is good or bad? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133660 Jennifer wrote: ...edited... > Maybe we'll find out more about why Snape did what he did, or if > Dumbledore asked him to do it...but it won't matter to Harry. Snape > might be a tragic character then, but he was always a jerk to Harry > and as a teacher myself, I find that hard to forgive. Harry most > certainly will find it impossible to forgive--especially in another > year (maybe not even another lifetime.) Juli: But it *does* matter. It matters to the Wizard World, to the Order of the Phoenix, to Voldemort, to the Death Eaters, and yes it matters to Harry. Harry may never forgive him, I agree with you there, but Snape is an important character in the whole series, he can tilt the balance either way, he's got enough knowledge on both sides, good and bad, to affect the aftercomes of the war. So far "we"'ve believed that Snape is working for Dumbledore in a very dangerous position as a spy among the DE and LV, of course you may think he's always been evil, I won't argue with you there (there's been a million posts defending good Snape), but the fact is that he's done some good. He's saved Harry's life more than once (PS, PoA - when he goes after Sirius, he was trying to protect Harry- , in OoP by teaching him Occlumency...) he's always been loyal to Dumbledore, and even if it seems weird to you, he has been protecting Draco, he cared for James (even if he hated him). Let's consider that Severus is completly evil: he can name all the members of the OoP to LV, and their location, He could tell LV Dumbledore's plans, he could do so much damage, that's for sure. But he can also do good: he's been informing DD on the DE's activities for the last year, he's been teaching the students DADA. We know Emmeline Vance *was* an Order member (she was a part of the advance guard), and Fudge says she's dead, but is she really dead? As DD told Draco he can make people seem dead, so if Snape tipped the DEs that he has killed Ms Vance, and he has proof, then she would be completly safe for who hunts a dead person? Juli - a firm believer in Good!Snape From beccamillott at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 22:52:51 2005 From: beccamillott at gmail.com (Becca) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:52:51 -0000 Subject: Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133662 Eggplant107 wrote: Fleur is a class act, a magnitude one first rate award winning > class act. Does anybody disagree? Becca: Despite how she feels about Bill, I'm still not crazy about her. She seems to be a little demeaning and conceited... From lschwaben at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:28:25 2005 From: lschwaben at yahoo.com (Rosmerta) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:28:25 -0000 Subject: Not much classroom action, was: Re: The Fate of DD/Snape studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeththedragonslayer" wrote: > > You know, its curious to me that we were shown little of what took > place during DADA classes. I only recall one mention of Snape > tormenting Harry during the year. Any thoughts? > > > Elisabeththedragonslayer I really missed not seeing more classroom action - it's as though being at school was only incidental to Harry's life right now. I was especially eager to see Snape teach DADA, and we got very little of that. (How *does* he think a Dementor should be battled?) Maybe JKR did that on purpose so what we see of Snape's use of the Dark Arts - and Defense from - in book 7 will be more of a surprise. At least I'd like to think that. HBP was the first book of the series that I felt was really too short. Lack of classroom action was a main reason. (Also, not enough Neville, Snape, Dennis, and some other people!) - Rosmerta From lizabet612 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 23:27:25 2005 From: lizabet612 at aol.com (lizabet612) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:27:25 -0000 Subject: Harry and the OP or Harry and the DADA? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133665 At the end of the HBP I was a little upset at Harry following DD orders and not sharing his Hortcrux adventure with Proffessor McGongall. To me with DD demise (and I do think he's dead) she represents the Order and the Hogwarts' spirit in many ways. If Harry only shares his information with Hermione and Ron - what will become of the Order - with greater resources than the Juvenile DADA - How will this affect Book 7 - will Harry discuss it? Lizabet612 From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 20 23:33:40 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:33:40 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Handwriting References: Message-ID: <01e601c58d83$7725b800$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 133666 Smilingator wrote: > One thing that has stuck out in my mind is the description of > Dumbledore's handwriting as "thin" and "slanting". In PS/SS, his > handwriting in the note he wrote to Harry when he gave him his > father's invisibility cloak was "loopy" and "narrow". If you compare > the handwriting, the only thing that is the same is DD's signature in > HBP and the handwriting of the note in PS/SS. > > Maybe I am just being picky here, but then I came across Hagrid's > handwriting in HBP, when he wrote to tell the kids of Aragog's death. > It looked exactly the same as it had in POA when he wrote about > Buckbeak's impending execution and in PS/SS when he invited Harry over > for afternoon tea. So, why has DD's handwriting changed? > Me (Fridwulfa) Well, maybe because his right hand was injured... it hurt, and he couldn't hold his wand as before, so imagine holding a quill and trying to write. Just a thought, though. Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From BrwNeil at aol.com Wed Jul 20 23:37:57 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:37:57 -0000 Subject: Dallas Theory Two Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133667 Kate wrote: >> I honestly feel that the use of the love-potions in HBP was comic- >> relief, instead of fodder for conspiracy theories. I really feel >> that if JKR used the Dallas theory it would be more clich?d than >> the way the romance is currently portrayed, and not nearly as >> emotionally honest >Thank you, Kate, for writing my exact feelings on the love potion >theory so eloquently. And Sienna brought up some amazing points in >her response post to mine (the name is Adair, by the way ;P), but the >glaringly obvious problem I have with the love potion idea is that we >see how Ron actually acts in response to one. Harry nor Ron react >this obsessively towards Ginny, Hermione, or Lavendar. I'd like to start by discussing why Ron acts so differently when he eats the Chocolate Cauldrons then he or Harry and Hermione did when breathing the potion. In the potions lab the trio were subjected to fumes whereas Ron overdosed on by eating a half box of the chocolates while already suffering love potion affects. You might say he had a real double whammy. Now as far as comic relief goes, doesn't it seem that the prep work was overdone if that's all it was. The book keeps talking about love potions, wouldn't the discussion at Fred and George's store along with the warning to Harry not to eat the Chocolates have been enough to set the stage for Ron actually eating the chocolates. >From everything that I've read, this book was edited very carefully. JKR didn't want a book as long as OotP. In my opinion it was too short, much was cut that I would have liked to read. I only mention this is as a lead in to my next point. If you would, please read once again pages 183, 184, 185 and 186 of the American addition. What was the reason for having those four pages in the book? What did the information contained there add to or for that matter have to do with the story? For what earthly reason do we have to know that Amortentia smells differently to each person, besides be told how it smells to Harry and Hermione. Why does Jo waste the time telling us that the potion's fumes filled Harry like a drink and that both he and Ron had a feeling of contentment? Honestly couldn't all of this have been cut out in favor of another class with Snape or a visit to Hagrid. We could have gone right to a discussion of Felix Felicis and had them start on making their potions. Yet all this inremained in the book for no motive. Why am I the only one that thinks this was written for a reason? And why later was Ginny described as having one of the same aromas that Harry smelled during the class. Was this a coincidence? I refuse to believe that Jo, especially in this book, just felt like discussing love potions and I don't think the aroma was a coincidence. Many people seem to reject the Dallas Theory because they think it will jeopardize their ships. I think they fail to realize that it could also buoy their ship and at the same time explain some of the OOC actions of the trio. Take Harry for a starter. Please for my examples lets assume a love potion affected him. Now this would explain why suddenly he took notice of Ginny after practically ignoring her for five years. Even under the influence he struggled with himself as to whether to ask her out, then suddenly he just kissed her. I think the potion gave him the ability to do something he would not have otherwise done. This doesn't sink the H/G ship. He now has been involved with her. If he truly cares for her and her in turn for him, they will get together again; the potion has served as an icebreaker. In Hermione's case the potion could just have been intensifying her feeling, but causing her to do things she might not have done normally. The potion to her may have been a wake up call to her real feelings for Ron. Ron, well in his case I most certainly hope it was a potion. Sorry, Ron fans, but he acted like an arse. If he truly loved Hermione, he could not have carried on with Lavender as he did. I think we'd all be quicker to forgive his actions if we knew they were all potion induced. What I trying to say is that the Dallas Theory is not about ships. It doesn't necessarily have any influence on who ends up with whom. It would, however, explain a lot of strange actions by the members of the trio. Next time: Why didn't the smartest witch of her time realize she was under the control of a potion? Neil From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:38:35 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720233835.3709.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133668 --- eggplant107 wrote: > Yes Fleur has her fault's, she is vain and all that, > but I wonder if > you have fewer faults than she does because my good > opinion of her > increased about 10,000 % in the last pages of the > new book when she > spoke about her heroic but hideously disfigured > future husband Bill. > There is no other way to interpret it, despite her > flaws (do you have > fewer?) Fleur is a class act, a magnitude one first > rate award winning > class act. Does anybody disagree? > Fleur's good. All the characters have faults. Some of them we can handle more than others. Some people can't stand Molly for her faults; I don't have a problem with them, even though I aknowledge them. Some people can't stand Fleur's, but I don't mind them too much. Some people aren't at all bothered by Sirius', but I can't stand them. Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lschwaben at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:14:13 2005 From: lschwaben at yahoo.com (Rosmerta) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:14:13 -0000 Subject: Will LV make another Horcrux? was: Re: Snape & the Order... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133669 Quoted from Rosmerta_Pince > > "> QUESTIONS: > > > - Would Voldemort try to make another Horcrux since he knows > > > the diary was destroyed? Harry could be facing five, not > > > four." Ciji: > I think Voldemort's goal of the Horcruxes was not for his Death > Eaters to find them and raise him from the dead per se, but for > them to be simple objects (a book, a cup, a locket) that could > be innocently obtained by some poor wizard or witch, then his > soul could rise up and do some serious damage before he was > discovered (as with Ginny in CoS). Dumbledore said the diary was "also intended to be a weapon" to let loose the Basilisk, but we don't know that about any of the other Horcruxes. It could be true, though. > I think he doesn't know when a horcrux is destroyed, because the > diary had his '16 year od self" in it. How would that soul > communicate with the present one, the adult Voldemort? I agree. However, Dumbledore does tell Harry that Voldemort was very angry that the diary was destroyed - my guess is after he was "resurrected" in GoF he asked Lucius about the diary and got an answer he did NOT want to hear. That's why I'm wondering if he'll see the need to make another Horcrux, to bring the total to 7 again. > Also, why would RAB (Regulus Black I'm hoping) leave a note to > Voldemort explaining he destroyed the locket if Voldemort > had some type of 'connection' to the items? Good point. I'm even more interested in how Regulus (if it was him) stole the real locket and put a fake in that basin, under all the potion! That's going to need some explaining. Voldemort wouldn't have placed a fake in the basin - he'd have known it was fake right away, since it didn't even look the same - so it had to be stolen later. UNLESS ... Severus made the potion in the basin and placed the Horcrux there for his master? But then he could have told Dumbledore all about it, instead of AD having to do all the research to find it, so - no. > I'm also guessing that each horcrux has a different age or era > of Voldemort's life embedded in it, for example, the diary (16 > years), the cup (21 years) the locket (25 years) and so on. > And I wouldn't be suprised if there were one horcrux with his > childhood self in it, so kid Voldemort could start all over > again. Isn't that a scary thought? Very scary! ("Kid Voldemort" - sounds like a regular on the wrestling programs!! Hee.) :D Rosmerta From jenserai at hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 23:40:49 2005 From: jenserai at hotmail.com (Jenserai Bariman) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:40:49 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133670 nrenka says: "On the rest of it, I'm beginning to find the "death was set up completely in advance" scenario more and more unlikely considering all the detailed plans DD is offering Draco; but that's another thread." Jens (me) says: "The plans may have simply been a method of getting Draco not to kill Dumbledore. I think the assumption the characters are making is that Draco will not be killed if Snape completes his task for him. Else-wise, why would Narcissa have asked Snape to do it? She certainly seemed more concerned about her son's imminent doom than anything else. By having Snape AK Dumbledore we now have a live, potentially redeemable Draco and Snape is in a better position than ever to help bring down Voldemort. Obviously the question remains, is Snape planning to continue passing info to the order and if so, how? But that too, is another discussion." -Jens From adairfletch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:23:15 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:23:15 -0000 Subject: Feminism (was: Love, pining, and magic (was: Women in HBP)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133671 anthyroserain wrote: > I'm not sure what you mean by "all the anti-feminist JKR opinion." > All I've seen was my post, and a lot of other posts criticizing > it. You're definitely in the popular camp, so no need to put your > neck out. > > I don't believe I ever said that JKR wasn't a feminist. Certainly > she is. But I do think her depictions of women in HPB come off as > rather old-fashioned and cliched, and though they may not be > particularly objectionable individually, as a whole I think they > make an unsettling picture. Oh, gosh. I wonder if I should write this to you personally, but I think it needs to be said to the group. I wasn't just responding to your post in particular, there was one by Sienna, and another poster, whom I can't remember, which were in an on-going thread from early this morning. When I posted I hadn't yet read Rachel's post, nor, I believe, Iris', so I apologize if I caused any undue stress upon your argument. I just adamently disagree with the anti-feminist POV around HBP, which I'm sure you gathered. And I suppose on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think the women in HBP came off at all conservative, if anything I identify Ginny as more the maternal figure, which is probably a projection from her mother. Yeah, Molly is the given stereotype, but Hermione, Fleur, Tonks, and I'll add McGonagall, Luna especially, Bellatrix, Maxime, and numerous others break traditional female archetypes. And that's the one thing I have always respected JKR for the most: she's demolished fantasy archetypal characters in her series, and replaced them with vivid, three-dimensional characters. I personally believe JKR has succeeded in giving all girls at least one female character to which they can relate, or can recognize from their own lives. I do apologize. Adair From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Jul 20 22:17:25 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:17:25 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133672 Allie wrote: > > WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT YOU-KNOW-WHO > > WHEN YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT > > U-NO-POO ? houyhnhnm: That one had me rolling on the floor, but my nomination would be "You don't have to call me sir, professor." (though not so funny in the light of what came after) From celizwh at intergate.com Wed Jul 20 23:37:59 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:37:59 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133673 ladyljd wrote: > After finishing HBP, I remain frustrated and bitter even after a > few days of reflection. The destruction of both of my favorite > Potter characters was bad enough. (Who knew one would murder the > other?!) But this is only the first stab in the heart. The knife > twists by revealing the murderer to be deliberately evil rather > than the anti-hero I believed him to be. And finally salt is > poured in the wound by the planting of confusing clues designed to > feed hope for redemption that will never come. [snip] houyhnhnm: I felt exactly the same way after reading HBP the first time. I've read the last chapters three times and I have come to a different conclusion. I think there is abundant evidence in the text that things are not as they first appear. I believe that Dumbledore knew what was going on the whole time; he ordered Snape to kill him to prevent Draco from becoming a murderer. There is no doubt in my mind that Snape is obeying Dumbledore's command to kill him, rather than Voldemort's. And he is doing it under extreme duress. I was struck between the simularities between these two passages: In the cave: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (p. 571) On the lightening-struck tower: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. 'Severus ... please' Snape raised his wand..." (p.595-596) On second reading it seems more likely to me that Dumbledore is not saying 'please don't kill me', but 'please do what you promised to do'. I can't find any quote from JK Rowling that shows her intent to make Snape ESE. What she said was she couldn't imagine anyone wanting to be *loved* by Snape. And we will find out in book 7. Probably anyone who could play the spy for all that time has got to have very little heart. But a traitor I don't believe. As for Dumbledore's weakness being his tendency to believe the best about people, I don't buy that either. That's something you would say to impress a death eater. There's a difference between believing love is the most powerful magic and some hearts-and-flowers (a la Lockhart) sentimentality about seeing the best in everyone. Dumbledore is no mere sentimentalist. >From GoF: "The look upon Dumbledore's face as he stared down at the unconscious Mad-Eye Moody was more terrible than Harry could ever have imagined. There was no benign smile upon Dumbledore's face, no twinkle in the eyes behind the spectacles. There was cold fury in every line of the ancient face; a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he were giving off burning heat." (p. 679) From lexac at mail.com Wed Jul 20 23:47:17 2005 From: lexac at mail.com (Lexa_C) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:47:17 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: Me: > > He may have invented Sectumsempra, but teenaged revenge fantasies > > are one thing, actually doing it is another. We don't have an > > indication that Snape used it ? not even against Lupin in trying to > > save his own life. Nora: > What do you think the cutting curse that hit James in the face in the > Pensieve scene was, then? It's far better controlled than Harry's > use of it on Draco, but it's still the same curse. Me again: Mea culpa. You're right - I don't know why I didn't connect those. And that is what I get for not re-checking that scene again before posting. *facepalms self* I remain unconvinced that Snape is The Big Evil, however. *g* -Alexa From aidil7lls at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 22:06:33 2005 From: aidil7lls at yahoo.com (lady_aidil) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:06:33 -0000 Subject: Why Half-Blood Prince? was: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133676 Mangochee wrote: > > But isn't it interesting that Snape chose a name for himself that > > highlights his not so perfect lineage? Clio replied: > What kind of person would write such a silly name in a school > textbook, anyways? Snape must have known that the marauders would > have had a field day if they discovered that nickname. And yet we > are to believe that Lupin knew noone of that name. > [snip] From what we know of the Snape family home-life and > financial status I just can't imagine the future Death Eater Snape > to be overly proud of his mother or his ancestry in > general. HunterGreen: > Perhaps Snape didn't know being Half-Blood was something to be > ashamed of when he came up with the title. > Its the newt-level book, but did he start using it in sixth year, > or did he come across it earlier? Young Severus might have come > across it with his mother's old school things (it was her book), > and learned all the potions himself. > We haven't heard the name mentioned by anyone before, so perhaps > Snape never told anyone about it. If he came up with the name as a > child, then later grew ashamed of his muggle father, I can see why > he'd keep the name a secret. I think it was his very personal textbook, kind of the spell and potion diary, not for eyes of anybody else, probably the name could have been a kind of self-mockery. I honestly doubt he said about it even his Slytherin pars, because IMO in the House of Snake beeing poor and half-blood was always a handicap, a social flaw, without doubt he was aware of this from the very beginning. The pompous name as the secret nick suits this rather pathetic teenager we saw in Pensieve in OOTP. He probably was inhibited and insecure. I don`t think the adult Snape thought about himself as HBP, what he said Harry it was rather confirmation of the fact-"yes it is me-HBP who wrote comments in the book". Lady Aidil From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 20 23:55:27 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:55:27 -0000 Subject: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adairfletch" wrote: > > I shall expound on my thoughts. I've noticed this thread began with a > discussion on how Ginny's reprimanding Hermione was an actual display > of conservative thought. Now, I've never been in the burning bras > camp, but I am most decidely a feminist, in the women-can-do- anything-a- > men-can-do-how-dare-we-be-stereotyped-into-certain-social-roles kind of > way. And as far as I was concerned, Ginny shooting Hermione down in > that moment was great, Hermione was being annoying. Not because she's > overly intelligent, but because she was castrating Harry for doing > something, though not moral, at least unintentional. Plus, it was > about Malfoy after he tried to hit Harry with the Cruciatus Curse. It > was stupid of Harry to try a hex he had no knowledge about, I totally > agree, but he already felt terrible about it, and Hermione was > displaying, in my opinion, a moment of insensitivety, which is common > for her when she feels she is absolutely in the right. Hermione can be > extremely annoying, which has nothing to do with her being a girl, and > is something I don't like to admit, because I've been called a Hermione > numerous times by many of my own friends. Iris now: The way I see it (but of course it's only my opinion, nothing more), Hermione was before all trying to protect Harry when she reprimanded him for what he had done. I'm not very good at building shipping theories, but I'll probably have to learn, because of the importance of love in this new book. I can't give anything for sure until the last book is released, but however I would bet that Hermione actually loves Harry and cares for him. She behaves in a strange and sometimes irritating way because of what she knows about him. He's the boy she loves, but he's also the Chosen One. The cloud of black smoke that surrounds her when she is given the information could mean that the situation disturbs her. Hermione is a reasonable girl, but she has to face a situation that goes beyond reason. How would you react if you happened to learn that the boy you love is doomed, that he has a mission you will probably never be able to fulfil yourself? Since the beginning, since the moment when she helps pass the Potion riddle in the first book, Hermione is aware of the difference between her and Harry. and by now, she has the confirmation. Then she probably doesn't know what to do in order to protect him, or in order to join him where he has to be. Moreover, we learn at the end of the book that she gave Ginny a piece of advice and helped her seduce him. It shows that she has studied the subject very carefully, as she always do. The irony in the situation is that another girl takes advantage on her knowledge. As for Ginny, and her brisk reaction towards Hermione, couldn't we understand that actually, she sees Hermione as a menace? Hermione is Harry's friend, since the beginning. She is brilliant, Harry trusts her, she's always there to help him. Moreover, Hermione is an attractive girl. Ginny isn't blind and sees how Ron behaves. She also knows what happened in GoF: Hermione, without making an effort, had managed to seduce Krum, a Quidditch star player. When Ginny bashes her, it's precisely about Quidditch. Quidditch is a tie between Harry and Ginny; what would happen if Hermione started showing an interest for the game? In other words, when Ginny tells Hermione not to act as though she understand Quidditch, she's teling her indirectly that she considers her as a rival. She wants Hermione not to enter the Quidditch Pitch; she's defending her territory. > And I didn't see Ginny only described physically, and I did not > understand the argument that her looks are why Harry likes her. Yes, we must also consider the way JK Rowling talks about what Harry likes in Ginny, what makes him notice her. Several times, we find a mention of her "long red hair", and of her vivacity. Doesn't it sound like what we know of Lily? Like Ginny, she had long red hair, and if we trust Professor Slughorn, she was "vivacious and charming", and used to make "cheeky answers". (chapter 4). So, you know, I think Harry cared for her because she reminded him of his beloved mother. It could turn out to be a reference to Alchemy (there's a phase called "the incestuous union of the mother and the son, or of the brother and the sister; Ginny looks like Lily and Harry considers first that he loves her like a brother). Without going until the Alchemical level, we can also see Harry's attraction towards Ginny, who looks like his mother, as the last manifestation of the boy's Oedipus complex. And when Harry decides to put an end to his relationship with Ginny, it's because he has grown up and he has overpass definitely that complex. It wouldn't work with Ginny because it wouldn't have worked with Lily. One last thing concerning a possible hidden rivalry between Hermione and Ginny: Ginny says she's ready to let Harry go and face Voldemort, but she calls his mission "stupid and noble". Hermione spends her time trying to warn him, but at the end, she says she's ready to follow him. We can think at first sight that Ginny's reaction is generous, that she sacrifices her sentiments in order to let Harry do what he has to do, and JK Rowling herself says that Harry considers she understands him. But however... she doesn't protest, she doesn't say she's ready to follow him whatever happens. We can think that Hermione is irritating with her eternal warnings. But however... her name is the last word of the book, and she's ready to share Harry's doom if she can do something for him. There's a huge difference between Ginny's option and Hermione's. Doesn't Hermione understand Harry better than Ginny? Ginny understand perfectly the teenage boy, but not the Chosen One. Hermione understands them both... And that's how I became unwillingly a shipper...never say "never" Of course you can object that this is reading far between the lines, but if I understand how shipping works, maybe I'm after all not completely off topic. Amicalement, From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu Jul 21 00:02:57 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:02:57 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Comments on Comments-NO SNAPE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133679 >Casmir: >Dumbledore didn't come across much different to me, the only >difference is that we actually got to know him outside the fatherly >and concerned discussions at the end of the books. Imagine DD being >something other than an answer machine after the woe...you mean he is >something more? Laura: I agree, and I think this is, in part, a result of DD coming to the other side of Harry - Harry, the adult. He no longer perceives or treats Harry as a child, so he doesn't have the difference in status any more. DD has always had a sense of humor (Nitwit, Blubber, etc.), but he is now more free to exhibit it around Harry. With the Dursleys, it somehow seems cathartic for both of them (Harry and DD) to have him say some of the things that Harry has long felt - to acknowledge them. He isn't really rude, just pointed. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From breegenie at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:04:34 2005 From: breegenie at yahoo.com (breegenie) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:04:34 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L." wrote: > OK, so could someone make some sense of this for me? > > When Draco is explaining the use of the Vanishing Cabinet in HBP, he > talks about how his classmate Montague got stuck in it, heard > snatches of sounds from both Hogwarts and Borgin and Burke's, and > eventually had to Apparate to get out of the cabinet, nearly dying in > the process. (Though whether his death would have resulted from > incompetent Apparition or just from starving in the cabinet, I'm not > sure.) > > Now, as Hermione well knows, you can't apparate in Hogwarts except > during the one scene where they relaxed that rule so that the > students could practice in the Great Hall. So clearly Montague must > have Apparated out into Borgin and Burkes. > > But I went back and checked this plot point on OotP, because I was > curious about whether Rowling had foreshadowed it without my > noticing. According to OotP, Montague was pushed into the cabinet by > Fred and George, and turned up several days later stuck in a toilet > at Hogwarts. > > Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and then in > his near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a toilet, and > pretended not to remember how he got there--just to conceal the > passage to Borgin's? This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me > wonder whether this is a Flint. > > Kelly L. I suspect this a Flint (did JKR forget about apparating in/out of Hogwarts?) or Draco's lying to cover up the significance of the cabinet. or the rumors about Montague ending up in a toilet are exaggerated or apparating inside a "moving" object has wacky results...I highly doubt Montague was focused on a toilet in Hogwarts :) Bree From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:09:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:09:05 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L." wrote: > OK, so could someone make some sense of this for me? > > When Draco is explaining the use of the Vanishing Cabinet in HBP, he > talks about how his classmate Montague got stuck in it, heard > snatches of sounds from both Hogwarts and Borgin and Burke's, and > eventually had to Apparate to get out of the cabinet, nearly dying in > the process. > > ... > > ... This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me wonder whether > this is a Flint. > > Kelly L. bboyminn: Well, if it isn't a Flint then it is at least a little flinty. It's possible that Montague didn't Apparate to anywhere, he simply apparated 'out'. In a sense he existed in no-man's-land, or in non-material-space. Escaping from this twilight zone would be very difficult. So, it's possible he summoned his last remaining strength and simply apparated to anywhere; simply 'Out' of where he was. This is a somewhat uncontrolled apparation and that may have resulted in his ending up stuck in a toilet. I think since we are dealing with a rather bizzare magical circumstance, that the standard rules of apparating in Hogwarts, or apparating in general, don't quite apply. Simply, unusual circumstance cause unusual results. I'm sure that doens't quite explain it, but if we assume there is a reasonable explanation, then this one probably comes close. steve/bboyminn From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 21 00:10:51 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 Subject: Feminism and love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133682 > > I shall expound on my thoughts. I've noticed this thread began with a > discussion on how Ginny's reprimanding Hermione was an actual display > of conservative thought. Now, I've never been in the burning bras > camp, but I am most decidely a feminist,as far as I was concerned, Ginny shooting Hermione down in > that moment was great, Hermione was being annoying. Not because she's > overly intelligent, but because she was castrating Harry for doing > something, though not moral, at least unintentional. Plus, it was > about Malfoy after he tried to hit Harry with the Cruciatus Curse. It > was stupid of Harry to try a hex he had no knowledge about, I totally > agree, but he already felt terrible about it, and Hermione was > displaying, in my opinion, a moment of insensitivety, which is common > for her when she feels she is absolutely in the right. Hermione can be > extremely annoying, which has nothing to do with her being a girl, and > is something I don't like to admit, because I've been called a Hermione > numerous times by many of my own friends. > > And I didn't see Ginny only described physically, and I did not > understand the argument that her looks are why Harry likes her. We've > seen Harry when he only likes a girl based on looks alone. Cho Chang > rings a bell, and she made Harry rather unhappy. Harry actually spends > time with Ginny, he talks to her, hangs out with her, spends time > around her with the Weasleys and the trio. He is not attracted to her > only because of her looks, if that were the case, I think he would have > noticed her long before the Dean/Ginny moment. And Fleur being the > beautiful fiance figure is irrelevant to me, as I gathered the end > scene with Bill occurred to assure Molly that Fleur does genuinely love > him, and that it isn't a shallow whimsy, which I think is what Molly > wanted to believe. The Tonks argument seems silly to me, as Tonks is > probably the cliche feminist example: the girl competing with men in a > traditionally masculine vocation, and falling in love with the > troubled, albeit good, though weaker man. > > I don't mean this diatribe as a pro-Harry/Ginny anything, more like a > pro-JKR invective. I agree with Del, as far as I think Harry will need > more love in the next book, and his whole hero-complex of isolating > himself from those he loves can't possibly help him. But even Harry > defends himself from Hermione's feminist posturing: when she accuses > him of thinking the HBP can't possibly be a girl, he becomes > understandably offended, and reminds her that he has been one of her > best friends over the last five years, loves her, and knows her, and by > knowing her how it isn't possible to think women are not just as > capable as men (I'm paraphrasing). > > I understand not liking the ships in HBP. I understand being annoyed > with JKR's constant literary device of outward characteristics > reflecting the inward (though I have always taken this in stride - it's > a common enough device in much of young adult literature). But > thinking JKR not a feminist? I don't get that one. And I'm 99% sure > she'd agree with me. > > Adair Well, I can't resist a discussion about feminist. But wait! (List- elves are waiting to jump out of the email and banish me from the list) I will relate this to Canon. First, if you get eight people in a room, all of whom define themselves as feminists, and there will be eight definitions of what a feminist is. I define myself as a feminist (and by the way, the picketers at the Miss America contest never burned their bras, that's a myth). So when Adair says she's a femimist " in the women-can-do- anything-a- > men-can-do-how-dare-we-be-stereotyped-into-certain-social-roles kind of way." I'd say, well, I don't agree with social roles or any kind of roles based on gender. My beliefs as a feminist are that women have been oppressed, lied about, hurt, enslaved, and discriminated against for centuries. That should end, and all other forms of slavery and oppression -- such as racism, and homophobia -- should end, too.. I hope that this revolution would end the silly and antiquated idea that women should act or behave in certain ways because they are women, that they should dress in certain ways, or work only in certain jobs....AND that men should behave in these ways. So, would JKR consider herself a feminist? It's my guess that she would, but that's up to her to say. It's obvious that she's a strong champion of the downtrodden. It's ALSO obvious that she's a champion of LOVE --brotherly love, sisterly love, partner love, parent and child love, sweet romantic love, and I'll hazard a guess intensely erotic love, too (although there is no evidence in canon for that last guess). Now, that is NOT anti-feminist. It was Robin Morgan, noted feminist theorist, who said that "we're all looking for a great love." She is also quite old-fashioned, and I don't say that in any kind of bad sense, because I am, too. She likes young people to be courteous, she likes people to be kind..that kind of old fashioned... Prior to the Order of the Phoenix, I had real problems with the way JKR portrayed women -- I felt almost all of the strong characters were male, and that the female characters were cast only by their relationship to men. I saw a lot of strong male/male bonding, but not a lot of strong female/female bonding. Of course, Hermione is the exception, and remember, she's the character who JKR herself identifies with most strongly. I have noticed there's lots and lots of anti-Hermione sentiment on the web -- people keep calling her bossy, and irritable, etc. I think this is backlash because Hermione has been the one character who was NOT portrayed just in relationship to a man (deputy, spouse, girlfriend, mother, crush). And please, before someone jumps on me, I myself am a mother. Being a mother is terrific. However, in the first few books, the ONLY role some of the women had was as a mother, and we saw NO MEN who were only spouse/father. In the OoP, the girls and women flourish and change remarkably. Ginny, in particular, goes from speechless and helpless victim in need of rescue(CoS)to a strong quidditch player, great witch - (particularly as far as hexes goes), social and popular. She stops waiting around for Harry to notice her and starts some social relationships of her own. She has ideas - she reassures Harry about his fear of being possessed by Voldemort. Ginny states quite clearly that she doesn't need Ron's permission to get involved with Harry - or to kiss Dean in the corridor. She's funny (no, I told him you had a tattoo of the Hungarian Horntail -- much more macho). Hermione continues to grow -- has no one noticed that she made a major change in public opinion about Harry and Voldemort? This was a terrific contribution to the fight against Voldemort (not to mention her detection and imprisonment of Rita Skeeter). Minerva McGonagall charges out to rescue Hagrid and almost dies. Madame Maxime goes off to negotiate with the Giants. We meet Tonks -- who at that time was a single woman, and an auror. The book's most contemptible villain is the unforgettable Delores Umbrage. So, are Harry and Ginny in love? (No, I don't think Ginny gave him a love potion -- aren't they supposed to act for 24 hours only? how would one explain the feelings that were creeping up on Harry before the Quidditch celebration..such as his jealousy of Dean?) I think it's quite possible. The early, limerance phase of falling in love looks quite a lot like infatuation (and feels like it too!) so it's hard to tell. They have become friends. Harry has learned to respect Ginny as a Quidditch player, a fighter (scene towards the end of OoP), and really likes her. She shares his values. She understands about fighting Voldemort. I don't think Harry will stick to his noble "I can't be involved with you anymore" stance...love will conquer. Contrast this with his disastrous crush on Cho.... Susan McGee, Northern California "Dumbledore would have been happier than anybody to think that there was a little more love in the world," said Professor McGonagall curtly... From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 00:16:59 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:16:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Last Act Message-ID: <1a3.380bb8b1.3010437b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133683 Penny writes: >Dumbledore knows >that Draco will be pushed to do what he has been requested to do. >So, Dumbledore has Snape do it, so that Draco will not have to do >the terrible deed. This will not only save Draco's (mental, and >perhaps physical) life, but also perhaps help him see where his >allegiances should lie in future battles and scenarios. Ray adds: I agree with this analysis, but would like to extend it. Whether or not it was part of the original plan, Dumbledore certainly knows about Snape's Unbreakable Vow. Part of the vow is to to accomplish Draco's mission is Draco is unable to. If anyone other than Draco or Snape AK'd Dumbledore after Draco faltered, Snape would have died on the spot. Dumbledore was not begging Snape for his own (DD's) life, he was begging Snape to save his own (SS's) life. -- Ray Total non sequiteur: Has anyone ever wondered what (if anything) SS means in Parseltongue? - R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 00:19:46 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133684 Little Alex writes: >Fleur had done nothing wrong except being >beautiful (and French) and wanting to marry her son. For most women, there is no greater, more unforgivable sin than wanting to marry her son. Just ask my wife :-) -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 00:21:15 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:21:15 -0000 Subject: The Horcrux that time forgot.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133685 One of the relics that Voldemort stored his soul within was located during the first VWar, Don't believe me? Lets look at the Canon evidence.. After attempting to AK Harry Voldemort lost his body and was reduced to a mere shadow of himself, a spirit, his disembodied soul. The Lestranges, loyal DE's, began to look for Voldemort, their search lead them to the home of a couple, Aurors and members of the Order of the Phoenix, Alice and Frank Longbottom. This poor couple were tortured into insanity by the Lestranges, over the location of Voldemorts disembodied, soul all that remains after the failed AK at Godrics Hollow.. Why did the Lestranges believe that Frank and Alice knew the location of Voldemorts disembodied soul? Noone knew where Voldemort fled to after GH, noone at all. What information where the Lestranges going from then, what made them believe that Frank and Alice knew the location of Voldemorts disembodied soul? Isn't the answer staring us right in the face.. ;D Alice and Frank have been in St Mungos for several years, permanently disabled by the horrific injuries inflicted upon them by the Lestranges. They hardly got the chance to learn of Harry's scar, of the rumours of his defeat of the Dark Lord since they were deep in hiding at the time it could well be that the last they were aware their own son Neville might be the One with the Power to defeat the Dark Lord.. If anything would be important to them, it would be helping the boy, who might be their own son, to defeat the evilest overlord of all wizard time. While they were being tortured for information, and their power and strength diminished what would Alice be thinking, would she, like Lily Potter, be thinking of her son and his future, would she be stashing away in her most protected corner of her mind til the very last, the most important things that her son would ever need. And in moments of desperation wouldn't that last thing be The Power to Defeat the Dark Lord.... Alice's memory was crippled, her body and mind now permanently bound in excruciating agony, but somewhere barely intact she kept something, something very very important to her son. If only she could remember what it was..... "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum anybody," chirped the slight witch, behind the clunking trolley. Gum Wrappers, JKR has them strewn all across her web desk, legions of fans have analysed and reanalysed the every canon aspect of this mysterious candy wrap so important to Alice Longbottom. And now, maybe, we know why. So which Horcrux is it? by deduction and a little reasoning that I'll reserve for another post.. It comes down to one of two. The seven pieces of Voldemorts soul reside in the following places.. 1. The Locket 2. The Ring 3. The Hufflepuff Chalice 4. A Ravenclaw Relic 5. The Diary 6. Nagini 7. Voldemort Himself The Locket, Ring, Diary, and Nagini do not apply to this theory. This leaves the Hufflepuff Chalice and the Ravenclaw Relic. See how easy that was? Now? Where is the Horcrux. I have a few angles that I have started from, please feel free to imagine some more. Appearing on the Gum wrappers that JKR has scattered across her web desk is simply the word GUM. The wrappers are what we are dealing with here, and if "Droobles Best Blowing Gum" doesn't appar on the wrapper then quite possibly its not the clue. Perhaps the clue is just GUM any old GUM. But why? Lets explore the avenues: Remember the Mimbulus Mimbletonia - the one with the Stinksap...? Gum is another word for sap, did you know? Has it been right under our noses all along? What about MUG - Gum in reverse, its another word for cup? Has it really been this obvious from the start? Is the Cup in the Sap? Whats the Sap? are these clues leading anywhere at all? Comments? Howlers? Valky From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 00:27:58 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:27:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? Message-ID: <102.656135c2.3010460e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133686 J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk writes: >It's not in Snape's >character to help Harry, so I can't see him going 'oh look Harry >here's that Horcrux you were looking for!'. Perhaps not, but look what's Snape's last bit of advice to to Harry are: "... learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" That's about as close to telling Harry to practice non-verbal spells and Occlumency as Snape would dare under the circumstances. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 21 00:35:45 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:35:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's bravery? In-Reply-To: <00df01c58d7c$d8bf6450$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <00df01c58d7c$d8bf6450$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <42DEEDE1.7090104@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133687 Sherry Gomes wrote: > On a different note, because this will use up my third message of the day, > several people have said that Snape knew about the Horcruxes? Did I spell > that right? Is there anything in the book that says he did? Dumbledore > told Harry not to tell anyone but Ron and Hermione, to the point that he > wouldn't even tell McGonigal at the end. Would DD have told Snape about > them? I am curious. > > Sherry Kathy writes: I think they have both been in on it from the beginning. 1. Dumbledore could have told Harry that he was taking potions and to buy his books. Snape produced his old school book for Slughorn to give him. They knew that Harry would share it with his friends. Hermione needs to learn to think outside the box. The twins invent items and spells at an incredible rate. It hasn't ocurred to Hermione until now that it can be done. Snape made no serious attempt to get the book back from Harry, and no serious punishment was given Harry by either Snape or Dumbledore for using what he learned in the book. The lesson in the book on bezoars saved Ron's life. 2. Snape was the only person Dumbledore wanted when he thought that he had the third horcrux, and apparently was the first person he went to when he acquired the second horcrux. Snape does have the most experience with the Dark Arts. While Dumbledore might have retrieved them at great cost to himself, it may well have been Snape who deactivated the ring. I believe that Dumbledor was actually dying from the curses when he got the ring. Time was of great importance to him throughout the book. 3. I think Snape really did know what Draco's task was, which was to kill Dumbledore. I think he manipulated Narcissa into asking for his help. He may not have been expecting the Unbreakable Vow, but I believe Dumbledore told him to do whatever was necessary to cement his position with Voldemort. At the time of the Vow, Snape was being watched by Wormtail, suspected by Bella, and other DE were taking stories to Voldemort. I have no problem with Voldemort trusting him with the plan. Snape was the only DE with any brains at all. He was the only one who was still in exactly the same place he was when V disappeared. He had a good explanation for Voldemort and lots of lovely, mean, memories for V. to look at. He knew that Voldemort meant for him to do the job if Draco couldn't. I think that in making the Vow, Snape was in effect giving up his own life. He had no intention of doing it. 4. Dumbledore was certain that the potion he drank would eventually kill him. I think he wanted Harry to get Snape to take possession of the horcrux, not knowing it was a fake. The attack on the castle was a surprise, I think, because nobody thought Draco could do it. Things kind of went to Hell in the tower but Dumbledore made Snape stick with the game plan. Snape has never disobeyed a directive of Dumbledore's, even the ones he hated. Interestingly enough, I believe that Snape has killed previously or Dumbledore might not have been able to trust that Snape could do it. That could have been what Snape meant in the argument when he said "you take too much for granted." 5. Another poster said that Dumbledor had no partner. Too many things were kept from McGonagall, Lupin, and the rest and especially Harry because of the mental contact with Voldemort. The only person who could have told Dumbledore that Voldemort was now blocking Harry out completely is Snape. I believe that is because once Voldemort found out about the accidental destruction of one of his horcruxes, which he now has every good reason to believe, work, he doesn't want anyone else getting wind of it. I believe that Snape has been Dumbledore's closest partner ever since he realized what he did when he told Voldemort about the prophecy. It makes sense too that Snape was not told about the full prophecy because of the grilling he was still getting from Voldemort. That could not be passed until Voldemort was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Snape was his most loyal DE. In a previous post I mentioned that I believed that Dumbledor had become the temporary repository for all of Snape's memories that could not be allowed to be seen by Voldemort and I think that the phoenix released at the burial will return them as well as whatever other information Dumbledore wanted him to have. However, this is my humble opinion. She made complete idiots out of half of us last time, I have no doubt that she will do it again. KJ From lindydivaus at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 23:54:27 2005 From: lindydivaus at yahoo.com (Eileen Forster Keck) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 6197 (Tonks in HBP) In-Reply-To: <1121884714.1427.12171.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050720235427.45184.qmail@web50810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133688 Rowena said: "Personally I think Tonks is to be complimented on her excellent taste in men. As a fully trained auror she certainly has the resources to cope with Lupin's 'furry little problem' and she'll feed him up and mend his robes." Eileen now: Tonks IS marvelous, and funny. (Ditto Remus.) But judging from her difficulties when she helped Harry pack, in OotP, her mum will have to help with the householding spells! (Then again, maybe Molly will help her--or Remus--learn how to cook properly. And mend.) -Eileen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JodyE50 at aol.com Wed Jul 20 23:52:46 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:52:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: funniest line of the book!! Message-ID: <6a.59c105f2.30103dce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133689 In a message dated 7/20/2005 7:45:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, celizwh at intergate.com writes: > U-NO-POO ? > > > houyhnhnm: > That one had me rolling on the floor, but my nomination would be > "You don't have to call me sir, professor." > (though not so funny in the light of what came after) > > For me, the funniest part was Dumbledore's entire conversation with the Dursleys. He was so polite while making the Dursleys out to be total fools. When he gives them the drinks which keep whacking them in the head, I was laughing out loud. Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:45:51 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Remus/Tonks, Sirius and Blood Protection (was: Re: Sirius & Remus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721004551.37912.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133690 I was just looking back through some posts and saw this one.... Hats off to you guys, I have to admit that I never saw this one coming!!! moonmyyst fuzzlebub85 wrote: Melanie said: Tis interesting she is watching her tongue on that end. I mean what does she have to hide now? Sirius is dead..did he eventually marry? Was their a girl involved...or maybe my theory that Remus is the married one will end up panning out. I still say that Remus and Tonks are married. Yes, I know there is an age difference. But why else would she just be sitting around there all the time. She was there quite a bit more than any other Order member. > > ~Melanie > > Kaylee now: Yes! Remus and Tonks are married! I'm glad someone else thinks so. I know they didn't have many interactions (that Harry saw!) in canon so far, but like Melanie said, Tonks hung around Grimmauld Place quite a lot more than anyone else. Also, I know this is very weak and not really much canon support, but when Dumbledore says to Sirius, in GOF, "Lie low at Lupin's for a while," might that also be because his cousin, Tonks, is living there? It makes sense to me, with all the emphasis on family and blood protection Dumbledore seems to have. Maybe the reason Sirius can't be found is another kind of blood protection charm? Well, I'll leave the questions about dragon's blood and protection charms to TBAY...(since Sirius seems to know how to fight a dragon, GoF again...gah, where's the page where they talk in the fire? Canon anyone?) Just my two Knuts, Kaylee Tonks-Lupin, saluting Captain SSSusan of the DRIBBLE SHADOWS > --------------------------------- > Discover Yahoo! > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyljd at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:31:54 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:31:54 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133691 > houyhnhnm: > > In the cave: > "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the > goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (p. 571) > > On the lightening-struck tower: > "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and > hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. > > 'Severus ... please' > > Snape raised his wand..." (p.595-596) > > On second reading it seems more likely to me that Dumbledore is not > saying 'please don't kill me', but 'please do what you promised to > do'. ladyljd: Oh, how I would love to believe you are right! Instead I believe we are being led down the primrose path here. We know explicity what Dumbledore instructed Harry to do. We have no idea what orders passed between Dumbledore and Snape. He could be saying "please don't be tempted by this situation ..." or "please remember not to make me plummet off this tower to my death with whatever fake curse you're about to use!" Okay, so I'm being silly but you get my drift. > houyhnhnm > > I can't find any quote from JK Rowling that shows her intent to make > Snape ESE. What she said was she couldn't imagine anyone wanting to > be *loved* by Snape. And we will find out in book 7. Probably anyone who could play the spy for all that time has got to have very little heart. But a traitor I don't believe. Ladyljd: I don't know how much more explicit JKR can get than when she refers to Snape as a "deeply horrible person". As someone else said somewhere, Snape appears to be hated by his creator. And I much prefer to see Dumbledore as MUCH more than a sentimentalist. And I think we see snatches of the brutal core of the man in HBP when he makes Harry pledge to obey him. However, I get the feeling that the Dumbledore in my head is much more circumspect that the one on the page. I only to have to think of Quirrel, fake Moody, Lockhart and the hidden Chamber of Secrets to remind me of that. Great discussion! Ljd From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:50:06 2005 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 6202 In-Reply-To: <1121902894.1261.53927.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050721005006.54155.qmail@web52511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133692 --- HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Snape in Spinner's End and Snape in OOTP > From: torigyrl at aol.com > > > From: torigyrl at aol.com > Subject: Snape in Spinner's End and Snape in OOTP > > > I am currently on my second reading of HBP. I > finished re-reading Spinner's > End > and I noticed an omission by Rowling. Obviously > Snape isn't going to talk > about his involvement with the DOM in front of > Narcissa and Bellatrix. However, > Rowling doesn't seem to be addressing this(along > with -many- other things) > anywhere in the rest of the book. > > > > It was because of Snape's contacting members of the > order that they arrived > at the DOM in the first place. That throws a large > wrench in his supposed Dark > Lord's works. Voldemort obviously isn't aware of > Snape's role in contacting > Dumbledore or Snape would have been AK'd the next > time he appeared in front of > Voldemort. > > This contradicts the impression that Rowling is > trying to make about Severus > in Spinner's End. Yes he was a double agent and a > nasty person, but Snape > -really- didn't have to contact the order. He could > have just told Dumbledore > that he followed up on what Harry had said by > contacting Sirius and found that > Sirius was fine. > > I thought this book was supposed to be about answers > and not more red > herrings. > > Tori I think Snape is the number one red herring of the story and must continue till book 7. As much as I dislike the character my reading of HBP stills leaves me believing he is Dumbledore's man. If Dumbledore is really dead (and the image of the pheonix Harry saw at the funeral service may lead otherwise)then I am convinced he did it on the order of Dumbledore himself. I don't know why but the battle with Harry at the end didn't lead me to think Snape was trying to harm him but doing his best not to while maintaining his cover as a dedicated death eater. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 00:51:54 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:51:54 -0000 Subject: New Snape Theory - SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS revealed - LONG Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133693 Credit first to the founders of the original Pashminas, excellent theory, which I would now like to expand upon with a twist of my own. There are a few new Pashminas being flogged since HBP, can't think of any good acronyms for them yet, but in summary the reasons given for Snapes betrayal are: Draco's innocent soul The Unbreakable Vow Some as yet unknown Orders for the greater good given to Snape by Dumbledore Rather than pick holes in them all, since they ae all very good and I don't really want to. Here is my own theory: First and foremost, the inescapable truth that Snape has killed Dumbledore, should this haunt us? Well, now this early in the series I believe, Yes, Jo craftily leaves us devastated, mortified and hollow after HBP. But eventually we will look back on Dumbledores death with a sense of elation and joy, a wondrous event genuinely befitting a man of Dumbledore's character. A plot twist of such a calibre could be managed? I hear you ask.. the answer is yes, yes indeed it can, and I guarantee it can be done with such a style as to leave us wondering how we missed what was always there. It can be done, and moreover, it probably will be, or at least, to some degree, fans of Ms Rowling would find they agree, that a magnanimous stroke of plot-twisting genius is not too much to be expected from this all too enthralling and wonderful series. Hence I submit to you the reader my first premise for this theory - 1. If the above is something that we might expect from the HP series.. Not least of all things Dumbledore was, he was on the trail of Voldemort for most his years, he had tracked down many if not almost all of the evil overlords secrets, and had lead and trained an allegiance of followers who, in time when most were shaken to the core by the very utterance of a name, fought Voldemort and his Death Eaters, defied him again and again and stood their ground for the sake of the Wizard World for eleven long years, and then returned to the frontlines all those years later to do it all again. Apart from a sense of liberty, courage and conviction in themselves, they all shared one very important thing.. confidence in Dumbledore, in his knowledge and tenacity, and in his consummate wisdom. Many years later he instils the same feelings in the children of Hogwarts, and to his dying day he shows the same keenness and temperance in judgement with Draco Malfoy. No Draco could not kill him, and Draco was alone, frightened and under duress, Dumbledore got this oh so very right, and he spared and protected the small tragic innocent before him, at the cost of his own defenses. A small victory for the side of light, perhaps a great one if just one more misguided soul is given the faith in himself to turn away from the evil Dark Lord, but in any case, Dumbledore admits he had expected the attack. Does anyone wonder why Voldemort sent a child to kill Dumbledore? I don't anymore, it is fairly obvious actually. This is Voldemort playing on Dumbledore's most vital vulnerability, his emotions, "As Voldemort expects we fools who Love to act..", Dumbledore never exposed Draco's plan, he didn't defend himself when Draco entered, he didn't even threaten the boy or in any way at all allow harm to come to Draco... Voldemort attacked Dumbledore at his weakness, a strategic move it is and in this long game of Wizard Chess it might seem that Voldemort has ownership of the board, but Dumbledore has been playing too a long time, and he planned himself several moves in advance. So here you have my next premise for this theory: 2. If Dumbledore was any darn good at all at this game of Wizard Chess... The Horcruxes a vital peice of evidence Dumbledore needs to secure, that there are six made by Voldemort and Dumbledore is satisfied that Voldemort's bold claims of having gone further on the path of immortality than anyone are explained. Noone has ever done this before, noone has created more than one Horcrux. But someone has created one before. What about that? Who was it and what did their opponent do to return them to a mortal state and defeat them. Here is what we are given about defeating Voldemort through his Horcruxes.. The original soul does not die because part of it exists in the mortal plane protected within an object. So what if the piece of soul in the object is attacked then? is it also not bound to the mortal plane by its greater whole too? And here is the third and perhaps the most book seven spoiling premise of all: 3. If while part of Voldemorts soul remains in the mortal plane the rest cannot die..... The way to defeat Voldemort This theory could be awfully spoiling of Book seven, you have truly been warned now. There are Seven Horcruxes (Including Voldemort himself) and there are Seven tasks under the trapdoor, this is remarkable enough, but wait, look deeper, the seven tasks are more than this.. Task One - The three headed *Dog* - The Trio arrive at Fluffy prepared to swoon him to sleep with their flute, but IIRC Fluffy is already asleep... Task Two - The Devils *Snare* (insert "p" where you will) - This obstacle will strangle you with your own lack of faith and knowledge, shedding light on it will free you to move ahead... Task Three - The *Wing*ed Key - The Key is there it just takes Spotting... and a good seeker can see it when others can't.. one further clue, It has been handled before roughly (it is bent on one side)... Task Four - The Chess Game - A battle must be fought for this one... Task five - The Troll - It has already been knocked out.... Task Six - A Logic Puzzle one must choose the correct potion... Task Seven - The Mirror - The one who wants the Stone of Immortality, but not to use it.. The Horcruxes according to the Seven Tasks is... be prepared to be confused.... One - The Locket Two - The Ring Three - The Location of this Horcrux is revealed in the "Bent Wing" Four - Ravenclaws Object ( I think its this one) or Hufflepuff Chalice Five - The Diary Six - Nagini Seven - Voldemort Why? Some clever symbolism is the key to this one... 1. Fluffy - Guardian of the Underworld. Guardian of the Trapdoor. Inferi (Latin for: from below, from Hell) Guardians of the Locket. Is the Locket Horcrux number one...? I think so... What was that other Underworld Gate symbol in the books ? Oh Yeah, the veil.. ;D 2. The Devils Snare - Something that wraps around its victim.. The Ring Given that, I think we have already seen the end of these two.. But why, you ask? Why have we seen the end of the locket... That's not Canon! But my dear reader, I'm afraid it is. The Locket is a distraction, we are supposed to be looking for that now, speculating on Regulus and what he did with it, where Mundungus took it, If it could be so simple as Harry already owns the first Horcrux... It's quite marvellous really, such a clever distraction. Could keep us guessing for years.. Sirius and Dumbledore destroyed the locket. It has been sent to the other side along with Sirius through the veil. This is the way it must be done, This is the only way that Voldemorts scattered soul can be cast asunder forever.... One must die by the Hand of the other.... Remember what I noted above about the nature of the magic that a horcrux creates: The original soul does not die because part of it exists in the mortal plane. When Voldemort is "killed" in Godrics Hollow he does not die, his soul is disembodied from its destroyed vessel, bound to its other parts, here on the mortal plane. But hang on? If Voldemorts soul was *bound* to its other parts, then why did Dumbledore imply that it's other parts are not bound to it? How can they leave the mortal plane without the rest of themself? What if they can't? What if they, like the original soul, are bound to each other? How do you kill Voldemort? How can it be done? What kind of magic can put the pieces back together so they can die. The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.... The power to put the pieces back together? What is that power? Love. When Harry is invaded by Voldemort at the end of OOtP something hurts the Dark Lord, casts his mangled soul into agony so intense he can't bear it... What were those words again? "I'll be with Sirius again.." What is that? I mean, I know it's Love, but what else is it... ah yes thats the word, its a bond. A bond so strong it transcends death and lives beyond the veil. Vinculum quippe vinculorum amor est. Love is the Bond of Bonds. So we have a shattered soul, never whole enough to fully die, unless we stick it back together somehow. "I am beginning to understand," says Dumbledore "that what is needed is a chain. A chain of hands." "Hands that are bonded by Love?" said Sirius leaning forward eagerly "Is that what you mean?" "Yes Sirius, That is precisely what I mean" Sirius looked down into his hands at the Gold Locket he was holding, there was no doubt in his heart now of what choice he would make. Memories of his brother, and his friends James and Lily had flooded into his mind, thoughts of beloved godson Harry and the sacrifices that already had been made by good people for this moment to exist, a moment that Sirius didn't even need to be sure of his decision. "I'll do it." He said simply. "I had expected that you would say that Sirius." Dumbledore said kindly, he stood up and put his hand gently on Sirius' shoulder, he opened his mouth to speak but there were no words for what he felt at that moment, with a lump in his throat and a tear in his eye the old man just stood there taking his time saying Goodbye. (In OotP I am fairly sure that Snape did not know what Sirius and Dumbledore planned, and perhaps he actually put Snape and Harry together in the Occlumency lesson partially as a distraction for both of them who he knew would otherwise be keeping an eye on Sirius.) Sirius died by Dumbledores hand, Dumbeldore cast Sirius and the Locket into the veil, and took upon himself grave responsibility in doing so, Dumbledore has just killed a piece of Voldemort and now his hand, his love for Sirius, is the link in the chain between Voldemorts Locket piece of soul, and another piece here in the mortal realm. Dumbledore has sentenced himself to death, he has made a remarkable choice like Sirius before him, to carry Tom Riddle's Soul out of the world connected and whole, as it should be. Dumbledore didn't just randomly put the ring Horcrux on his hand to see what it would do, now did he. I don't think so at all. He intentionally cursed himself with a tattered piece of Voldemorts soul, and prepared to die. For Sirius and Lily, for Harry, and Ginny, for Hogwarts and Hagrid, for the creatures and people of the world. But he needed a new hand, one to carry the next piece of Voldemorts soul, a brave man with the courage to die, the sense of nobility to make his death meaningful, and above all the Love for Dumbledore so necessary to the plan..... Enter Severus Snape, double agent, strange fellow with ugly tendencies, but brave very very brave, noble indeed a noble heart, and Love for Dumbledore, yes he had that too. Ok before we go any further, this is not a SHIP. The love I am talking about is the same love as Harry felt for Sirius that night in the ministry of magic. Switch the players to Dumbledore and Snape and hear the words.. "and I'll be with Dumbledore again..." ... Suddenly it rings true. Yes this is the truth. The beautiful and terrible truth, these words could very easily have been the words of Severus Snape wishing he hadn't lost his most faithful and treasured friend and mentor. And there we have the understanding of what happened in the Astronomy Tower. The look of hatred and repulsion, (just like Harry in the cave), the reason that nobody was ever informed that Snape was innocent, the plea "Severus please...", the reason Snape ran upstairs to the Tower and when he saw a death eater about to kill Dumbledore he cried "NO!". Dumbledore *had* to die by his hand, or else all the sacrifice, all the torture and pain that our dear headmaster had endured throughout the year.... "Sirius died for this, " Snapes mind was racing as he pictured his old enemy bravely facing the same fate, he felt sick at the thought that he might now, here, be less brave, less noble than Sirius his face screwed up in ugly rage as he paced back and forth in front of his dearest friend, dying before him. For an instant he imagined himself bringing Dumbledore the antidote to the poison, there was no Harry, no Sirius, no Voldemort, nothing to prove, nothing to win.. but this was the reality Dumbledore had killed and now he must kill and die.. It didn't matter, he would die anyway now he'd taken that vow.. Hang on a minute!! Isn't that a line from the prophecy... Neither can live while the other survives.. If Dumbledore lives on that fateful night, Snape will die... If Snape lives on that fateful night... Dumbledore dies.. Look where Snape has let his choices lead him.. right into the arms of the prophecy! Did Dumbledore do the same thing with Sirius ? Did they make the unbreakable vow? ...Snape didn't afford himself the luxury of thinking about his choices again, it didn't matter now, he had already chosen to die for this cause.. "Avada Kedavra" The chain of hands will be consummated by Harry's Love and the pieces of Voldemorts soul will once again be united, this is the series climax, (and a massive book seven spoiler, I believe), if you have read this far, take heart, for although this theory might actually explain a great deal, there is still so much to read about in book seven that it doesn't explain. Of the rest of the Horcruxes, there are some mysteries and unexplained things.. and there are some fairly obvious things too. Lets take a look at them... 3. The Winged Key - Perhaps this Horcrux is a Key... In any case we've seen a "Bent" Wing before haven't we... at St Mungos. 4. The Chess Game - A Game of skill, a *thinkers* game, maybe this is the Ravenclaw Relic. Also there is a new interview recently with JKR where she says Ravenclaw house will have their moment.. hmm 5. The Troll - This one was dealt with early in the story, In the Girls Bathroom... hmmm too many clues Jo. Sad and beautiful though it is. (But if this is true, Dumbledore has lied about something.) 6. The Potions Puzzle - Dear Hermione will help us find Nagini and the key to her Horcrux, I believe. 7. Harry faces Voldemort.. Before I continue to the worst spoiler of all, I will tell you, I am more than wiling to answer your questions about the Diary and Ginny, ask away... I have thought it through.. Valky SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS Souls Horcruxes Individually Never Yeild. Giving Our Lives for his Death. Prejudiced Against Snape Harry Misinterprets Albus Noble Sacrifice... From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:52:17 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:52:17 -0000 Subject: Has Voldy "used" a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melhersheybar" wrote: > > This is Mhersheybar again - > > I guess what I don't understand then is why a Horcrux is needed to > make you immortal. If the piece of LV's soul that was in him at the > time he tried to kill Harry still survived, even if LV's body was > gone, then it wouldn't matter if there were other pieces of it > stowed in various places. I read the Horcrux explanation to mean > that you were protected because if one piece of your soul (and, as > it happened, your body) were destroyed, the other pieces outside > your body were there to keep you alive untill you could figure out > a way to fully restore yourself. > > The Horcruxes to me are like having bank accounts in different > countries - if the money you keep on yourself gets used up, go to > another bank and make a withdrawl. When the killing curse backfired, > it should have "killed" that piece of LV's soul, leading him to need > to go get one of his Horcruxes to replenish himself. > > Mhershey bboyminn: Naturally, since it is a new and crucial element of the story, the Horcrux has become the hot topic of conversation, but I think before we get too deep into it, we need to set some ground rules for what it is and how it works before we can start speculating on what it means to the story and the characters. MHershey is right, in as far as he/she takes it. Obviously, Harry's goal is to destroy all the external Horcruxes before he can destroy Voldemort. This apparently means that the human embodiment (Voldemort) of the soul must be the LAST to be destroyed. As long as there are hidden-object-enclosed parts of the person's soul around, the person can not be destroyed. To kill that person, does not kill that soul, and it is that embodied soul that becomes the 'ghost' or vapormort that roams the earth. So, again, first all the external fragments of the soul must be destroyed, then and only then, can the remaining Voldemort embodied soul be destroyed. So how does the Horcrux work? Has Voldemort killed six and only six people in his life? I don't think so. I think a key factor is that, in a very limited context, the killings must be ritual killings for the specific purpose of creating a Horcrux. True, killing in general may fragment your soul, but it doesn't matter unless you take a fragment out, and store it in an object. It's clear that Voldemort's killings were not ramdom acts. He chose specific and significant people. If he just wanted to create Horcrux, he could lurk around alleyways killing the homeless, but he is trying to create the most powerful and complex Horcrux cluster ever. He kills magically significant people, and hides the corrosponding bits of his soul in very significant and powerful magical objects, and he is creating SEVEN objects; seven being a very magically significant number. This is all very purposeful and calculated. So, Voldemort's embodied soul may be in a hundred fragments, but it doesn't matter because they are all collected together in one place, his body. What does matter is that six fragments were stored in external magical objects. Now the question becomes, is it the killing that creates the Horcrux, or must that be done by a separate ritual, and most likely within a certain period of time? The killing only fragments the soul, but the soul, at least as I see it, is not instantly separated from the body; is simply become a fragment within the body. Now in a certain Horcrux ritual, at a certain time and place, one of the fragments can be placed into an object. Logically, the few the total number of fragments, the larger the fragments would be. So, in the first few killings, he was able to hide large parts of his soul. Now, after many many killings, the size of each fragment is smaller and less powerful. As long as there are the extrenal fragments safely protected by their magical objects, the embodied soul is protect. Harry task is to first destory the object-based soul fragments, so that when he confronts Voldemort in the final battle, Voldemort is vulnerable. So, whether you believe me or not, I still think we need to have a foundation for how this Horcrux Charm works before we run too wild in our general specualtion. Steve/bboyminn. From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:55:24 2005 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:55:24 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133695 Message 133580, Message 133680, Message 133681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L." wrote: > Snip< > > When Draco is explaining the use of the Vanishing Cabinet in HBP, he talks about how his classmate Montague got stuck in it, heard snatches of sounds from both Hogwarts and Borgin and Burke's, and eventually had to Apparate to get out of the cabinet, nearly dying in the process. > > ... This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me wonder whether this is a Flint. > > > > Kelly L. > > bboyminn: > > Well, if it isn't a Flint then it is at least a little flinty. > > It's possible that Montague didn't Apparate to anywhere, he simply > apparated 'out'. > > In a sense he existed in no-man's-land, or in non-material-space. > Escaping from this twilight zone would be very difficult. So, it's > possible he summoned his last remaining strength and simply apparated to anywhere; simply 'Out' of where he was. This is a somewhat uncontrolled apparation and that may have resulted in his ending up stuck in a toilet. > > I think since we are dealing with a rather bizzare magical > circumstance, that the standard rules of apparating in Hogwarts, or > apparating in general, don't quite apply. Simply, unusual circumstance cause unusual results. > > I'm sure that doens't quite explain it, but if we assume there is a > reasonable explanation, then this one probably comes close. >> steve/bboyminn *****\(@@)/***** A true anomaly if not indeed a Flint. Also, since the cabinet was malfunctioning to begin with, I am wondering if the rules ended up being somewhat suspended and if the cabinet had been relegated to a place where unused/broken items go (hence Draco being able to find it via the Room of Requirements by asking for broken/discarded items) then trying to apparate out might have gotten Montague exactly where he ended up! The idea Malfoy got to fix the cabinet and make the use of it the way he did is actually quite brilliant! I can only hope someone remembers to go back and disable that cabinet or destroy it and look at all the other items there just in case! Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From krasniewski at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:03:44 2005 From: krasniewski at yahoo.com (krasniewski) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:03:44 -0000 Subject: Snape in Spinner's End and Snape in OOTP In-Reply-To: <7f.62644477.30102da3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133696 torigyrl wrote: > Obviously Snape isn't going to talk about his involvement with the > DOM in front of Narcissa and Bellatrix. However, Rowling doesn't > seem to be addressing this (along with -many- otherthings) > anywhere in the rest of the book. > It was because of Snape's contacting members of the order that they > arrived at the DOM in the first place. That throws a large wrench > in his aupposed Dark Lord's works. Voldemort obviously isn't > aware of Snape's role in contacting Dumbledore or Snape would have > been AK'd the next time he appeared in front of Voldemort. > > This contradicts the impression that Rowling is trying to make > about Severus in Spinner's End. Yes he was a double agent and a > nasty person, but Snape -really- didn't have to contact the > order. But perhaps that's the whole point. It could be an omission on JKR's part, but if we have the good Snape theory, then it isn't an omission. Rather, it's a strong argument for the good Snape theory. Why would he need to bring attention to unnecessary good things that he has done? Note also that this action would already be persuasive in Harry's mind, as he is not aware of the Spinner's end situation and would hardly be able to perceive the omission (obviously). On another note, if you read Spinner's End and the Unbreakable Vow, NEVER does Snape hear or say exactly what the task Draco must perform is. More importantly, Snape is always asking to know what Draco needs to do. (see pages 322-324, US HBP, and Spinner's End). This gives much credit to the good Snape theory as well - he doesn't know what Draco has to do until the last minute, when it is perfectly clear. If Snape knew what needed to be done, knew it without question, there's little reason he'd need to be so persistent in trying to find out what Draco needed to do. This may be a repetitive point, but I think this is a very big clue that people continue to overlook - the snippets of conversation we hear in past books usually have some important meaning, and it typically isn't as obvious as we first perceive (consider Snape and Quirrel in book 1) Mark From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:58:00 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:58:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny, Snape and assorted desiderata ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133697 [/lurker] There is no way I can keep up with all of the discussions about HBP, here, but I've tried to at least catch the main threads. So, please pardon me if I repeat things that are established in the archive, as well as the fact that I haven't linked this to any particular thread due to the problem of finding all the ones that it might be related to. So, starting with Ginny and Harry, I have no problem with this relationship at all. I'd long thought that the only two girls who made sense as interests for Harry were Hermione and Ginny, and despite assertions from several that they did not see this coming, or that it was to peremptorily presented, I think the basis for it lies definitely as far back as CoS, and even SS/PS. Still, there are some human psychological points that need to be raised, I think. Various studies over the decades have shown that love gets a chance between two people when certain conditions are met. Among these are continuing, regular, preferrably frequent, contact, plus shared interests, experience and values. Think of intra-office romances, where you have people who work together, generally have similar interests (which is part of what got them into the same business after all), and frequently shared values, etc. Ginny and Harry have had routine contact for years, now, primarily during the summers at the Weasley's (in terms of intensity of interaction), but also at Hogwart's, where they are in the same house, at the same table, have shared sibling/friends and pure-friends, have come to know each other well, have similar beliefs and values (which is part of what got them into the same house), shared experience (Voldy-mentia, might be a good term for possession by Tom-mort) and so on. On a different tack, in classical thought, there are four requirements that must be present for love to be present: knowledge, concern, respect and a proactive sense of responsibility. We know that Harry knows Ginny, and rather well. We know that he has at times been actively concerned about her welfare. We know also that he respects her, as she is both a valued friend and frequent ally in both major and minor battles, figurative and real. We also know that he took a very proactive role in rescuing her from Tom in CoS, and that he also was concerned that she be in the DA, which was a proactive move to help ensure her safety through self-defense. So, I don't think you can say that Harry CANNOT love Ginny, because the four basic requirements are demonstrably present. So, we have the psychological foundation present to support a true love of Ginny by Harry, and I think we have as good or better arguments for Ginny being open to loving Harry, though Ginny's mind isn't as open to us through the narrative as is Harry's. That means for me the question is not whether it is possible, but, "Why wouldn't he love her?" As for Snape, I think his loving Lily is still on the table as a real possibility. Why? Slughorn has said repeatedly that Lily was very gifted at potions. This opens at several possible arguments on the point, and her are a few of them. First, since we "know" that Snape was very gifted in this field, it might be the case that he helped Lily, and that the dislike of her that he also been stated in canon came later due to her rejection of him in favor of James. In this line, it could be argued that her disapproval of James' treatment of Snape in the pensieve scene was in part a certain loyalty to someone who had helped her, and not merely her sense of fairness. Second, if both were gifted, the potions modifications in Snape's copy may have been the result of collaboration between Lily and Snape. Note that though Snape strongly suspected Harry had a "special" copy of the potions text, he only took verbal shots at Harry about Harry's use of SPELLS Snape invented. Third, if it was Lily who was the real talent, and she helped Snape with potions, who was more into hexes, jinxes and such, and thus wrote these into his potions text when he should have been concentrating on potions, Snape would in effect owe much, including his years as potions master, to Lily, and perhaps also have loved her for it. This is far from a complete exposition on the subject, and numerous angles and subvariations remain to be explored, but I await more revelations regarding the relationship between Snape and Lily in book 7. I don't see the complaints about Tonks and Remus at all. I think what we are seeing is simply that the Potterverse is broader than canon. People continue to live lives, fall in love, fight, etc., outside of canon, and it is not necessary for canon to incorporate all of this into canon. To me, this demonstrates a rather richer imagination on the part of JKR than many an author, and is to her credit, especially as she is often able to use "off canon" to build plot that is subsequently canonized. I do not see Harry/Ginny necessarily being at an end until LV's death. With the impending wedding, I think there is a chance for some privacy, and safety, for the two at the Weasley's. Given that Mr. Weasley has already stated that "half" the family owes their lives to Harry, I don't see either parent objecting to some private time in the house for the two of them, nor do I see Ginny quietly accepting indefinite suspension when this opportunity will be so apparent. I don't for a minute think that this will translate into wild passionate scenes, implicit or otherwise, only an opportunity for the two of them to be together, and alone, without the risks of an openly acknowledged relationship such as they were building at Hogwart's. Public affection is, I think, now at an end ... at least until the end of LV. I still think at least one Weasley will die, with Ron being the prime candidate, thanks to all the interesting "soothsaying" in prior canon. Such would tend to make a H/G ship particularly seaworthy, I think. However, I still have problems with a R/H ship. As noted above, respect is an absolute requirement for love, and I don't see them respecting each other in the manner and degree that would support a solid, enduring love. JKR may have things in store for us that will change things dramatically but I still think it would be a significant error in terms of believability if she were to leave us with a R/H LHEA without some significant changes in both. The good news for R/H shippers is that war and combat can bring such changes. Now, as I prepare to re-read HBP ... please don't flame me too bad! Richard From dbonett at adelphia.net Thu Jul 21 00:55:45 2005 From: dbonett at adelphia.net (dtbonett) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:55:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's O.W.L. grades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "redandgoldlion" wrote: > Okay, so Hermione got one Exceeds Expectations. No one's perfect, > right? But has anyone stopped to think that it was *Defense Against > the Dark Arts*. > > I for one am very curious about Hermione in general. Does anyone else remember Rowling saying somewhere that she took the name from Shakespeare's A Winter Tale and that we should read that play if we wished to understand important things about the book. IN that play, it happens that a Queen Hermione is wrongly accused of something and 'dies'. then it turns out that she is not dead at all. Mirror of Erised From ladyljd at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:45:42 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:45:42 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133699 > If these are moral books, then the morality they > reflect seems to be incredibly two-dimensional, at best. To me, Snape > is the key to the morality of the whole story, and frankly, he is not > only *not* showing a redemptive pattern (unless Dumbledore's death was > a hoax), he seems to have been slotted into the black and white, bad > or evil category, which is a limiting view of life and choice, as far > as I am concerned. It will be interesting to see what happens in the > seventh book, but I am not hopeful the end for Snape will be generous > or enlightening for him. Rowling's comments indicate to me that Snape > is hated by his creator. > > And if loving your fellow person is a mistake, well... > > lealess Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one out here howling in the wilderness! I'm glad you said the bit about JKR possibly hating her creation because it's what I've been thinking since before the book came out. In addition to the quotes I orginally, this belief is being driven by a JKR TV interview I saw a month or so ago. I can't remember the show or the interviewer and I only caught the tail end of her appearance segment. However I DO remember the sinking feeling I had in the pit of my stomach as I saw and heard her make this point: not everyone is always going to like what she writes. Therefore, she must not allow herself to be swayed by popular opinion and must write what she believes. (I'm paraphrasing but she used words to that effect.) At the time I could not escape the feeling that she was talking to me. I tried to shake it off but from that point on a part of me has known that the Snape I believed in was doomed. I'm assuming we'll see the redemptive pattern she mentions in Book 7 flashbacks. And whatever these flashbacks show, I'm sure we'll Snape going wrong then correcting in a repeated pattern. This will clearly show him to be the last person someone like Dumbledore should have trusted. Thanks for making it through my post! And this is my 3rd post of the day so I'm outta here. Ljd From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 01:04:10 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:04:10 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133700 > Jens: > Obviously the question remains, is > Snape planning to continue passing info to the order and if so, how? > But that too, is another discussion." AD: Well, I was wrong before about Snape's method of spying, but I'll throw in my opinion anyway: If Snape is still on the side of the Order (I won't call him a "good guy") I don't think he can function as a spy anymore--it was Dumbledore who trusted him, and Dumbledore is dead at Snape's hands. But he can be a time bomb, lying in wait for the moment when he can do the most damage to Tommy and his Toerags. Amiable Dorsai From torigyrl at aol.com Thu Jul 21 00:06:01 2005 From: torigyrl at aol.com (torigirl1976) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:06:01 -0000 Subject: Severus, Albinus and Machiavelli Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133701 After I posted my post on Spinner's End I remembered something I had read after book 4 came out. It was an analysis by someone about how Harry Potter has shades of Machiavelli's "The Prince" So I dug out my copy of "The Prince" and I'll quote the passage in particular. It is from chapter XIX: On avoiding being despised and hated. Warning: This is long, but I felt the whole passage should be put up here as I think this is where Rowling got her plotline. "Considering now, in contrast, the characteristics of Commodus, SEVERUS, Antoninus Caracalla, and Maximinus, you will find them extremely cruel and greedy; in order to satisfy their troops, they did not hesitate to inflict all kinds of injuries upon the people; and all except Severus came to a sorry end. For in Severus there was so much ability that, keeping the soldiers as his friends even though the people were oppressed by him, he was always able to rule happily; for those qualities of his made him so esteemed in the eyes of both the soldiers and the common people that the former were awestruck and stupefied and the latter were respectful and satisfied." Tori: I would say that cruel and greedy does describe Severus Snape. Also he did inflict a lot of cruelty upon his students which seemed to be overlooked by his fellow staff. He is also a wizard with great ability, could his intelligence and potion making abilities have kept his colleagues from acting against him? "And since the actions of this man were great and noteworthy for a new prince, I wish to demonstrate briefly how well he knew how to use the masks of the fox and the lion, whose natures, as I say above, a prince must imitate." Tori: In Spinner's End Bellatrix kills a fox. Is this a metaphor? "As soon as Severus learned of the indecisiveness of the emperor Julian Julian, he convinced the army of which he was in command in Slavonia that it would be a good idea to march to Rome to avenge the death of Pertinax, who had been murdered by the Praetorian Guards. And under this pretext, without showing his desire to rule the empire, he moved his army to Rome, and he was in Italy before his departure was known. When he arrived in Rome, the senate, out of fear, elected him emperor, and Julian was killed." Tori: It's hard to say if Julian was Cornelius Fudge or Voldemort. Or if the command in Slavonia could be something about Karkaroff or something he did while he was a DE. The truly important part of the passage is as follows. "After this beginning, there remained two obstacles for Severus if he wanted to make himself master of the whole state: the first in Asia, where Pescennius NIGER (Sirius Black), commander of the Asiatic armies, had himself named emperor; and the other in the West, where ALBINUS was, who also aspired to the empire. And since he judged it dangerous to reveal himself as an enemy to both of them, he decided to attack Niger AND TO DECEIVE ALBINUS. He wrote to the latter that, having been elected emperor by the senate, he wanted to share the honor with him; and he sent him the title of Caesar and, by decree of the senate, he made him his coequal: THESE THINGS WERE ACCEPTED BY ALBINUS AS THE TRUTH." Tori: Or in Snape's case feeding Dumbledore a line of bull about being reformed. "But after Severus had conquered and executed Niger and had pacified affairs in the East, upon returning to Rome, he complained to the senate that Albinus, ungrateful for the benefits received from him,.." Tori: Shades of the argument between Dumbledore and Snape in HBP about Dumbledore taking things for granted. "..,had treacherously sought to kill him, and for this he was obliged to go and punish his ingratitude. Then he went to find him in France and took both his state and his life." Tori: So if we all had paid a little more attention to Machiavelli we would have seen this coming. Or at least more attention to the uknown fan who first predicted this using "The Prince." I find it now more believable that Snape is for Snape and not a good guy working for the order. Nor is he really working for Voldemort. The question is will Snape try to get Voldemort out of the way in order to gain power for himself. That could be the real reason he didn't kill Harry or allowed him to be killed. He is aware of the prophesy(to an extent) he would need Harry to kill Voldemort for him then. This brings up another question, will the final show down really be between the Half Blood PRINCE and Harry? Tori From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 00:06:24 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:06:24 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133702 houyhnhnm wrote: > As for Dumbledore's weakness being his tendency to believe the best > about people, I don't buy that either. That's something you would > say to impress a death eater. There's a difference between believing > love is the most powerful magic and some hearts-and-flowers (a la > Lockhart) sentimentality about seeing the best in everyone. > Dumbledore is no mere sentimentalist. I couldn't have said it better myself. Also, Dumbledore doesn't "trust" people or "believe the best about people" anyway. He uses highly specialized and very powerful magic (legilimency) to determine whether or not they should be trusted. snipsnapsnurr From gertgal at aol.com Thu Jul 21 01:19:05 2005 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:19:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > I'm along with those who believe that Dumbledore asked Severus Snape > to kill him, as some sort of pre-agreement (along the lines of those > he made with Harry). I entirely agree that Dumbledore, while perhaps not wishing to die, allowed it to happen. It simply does not make logical sense that Dumbledore could not stop a single teenage wizard, even while unarmed. I believe that, even in a weakened state, Dumbledore could have permitted his death, if he so chose. Ginger From ja9shahinian at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 01:16:03 2005 From: ja9shahinian at comcast.net (Janine R. Shahinian) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:16:03 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on Wormtail and the Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133704 Leah/"littleleahstill" wrote: << I was wondering what if one of the Horcruxes isn't Nagini? Was Voldemort in any fit state to give away part of his soul when he killed Frank Bryce? I'm thinking about the murder of Cedric Diggory. It must be Wormtail who wields the wand, but whose is the inspiration behind the spell- I can't imagine Wormtail having the wherewithal to AK a boy he doesn't know. [snip] In the graveyard, Voldemort hopes to do two things, recover strength and physical being, and destroy his nemesis, Harry Potter. He might well want to tuck a bit of soul away before he tries again. So having ripped off a piece of soul with the killing of Cedric, he makes a horcrux out of silver and gives it to Wormtail (after all, why would he otherwise care if Wormtail has a prothesis or a stump?). >> Janine: You beat me to the punch in suggesting that the silver hand is a possiblehorcrux. However, I *do* think Wormtail has it in him to kill Cedric on his own, just like any other DE is able to kill on LV orders, so this kill doesn't count towards splitting LV soul in making a horcrux. Instead, we still have James's and Lily's deaths left over from when LV might have been planning to create a horcrux along with killing Harry (and failed). So his wandering soul could have already been broken. As for Nagini, I figure she probably *is* a horcrux, mostly because DD suggests this. It also would help explain why Harry could also see through the eyes of the snake in addition to being tapped into LV, directly. But since Harry views the happenings at the Riddle house through Nagini *before* Frank Bryce's death, it seems to me that Nagini became a horcrux before LV's downfall. littleleahstill: <> Janine: This sounds like an excellent two-for-one theory! Get Fenrir to destroy the horcrux hand while the silver destroys Fenrir. Janine From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 01:22:51 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:22:51 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: <102.656135c2.3010460e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > J.Z.Dench at u... writes: > > >It's not in Snape's > >character to help Harry, so I can't see him going 'oh look Harry > >here's that Horcrux you were looking for!'. > > > Perhaps not, but look what's Snape's last bit of advice to to Harry are: > "... learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" That's about > as close to telling Harry to practice non-verbal spells and Occlumency as > Snape would dare under the circumstances. Or the giddy taunting of someone who is reveling in their newfound dark freedom. There are so many ways to read just about everything that happens with Snape I think its pretty futile to guess. If Rowling has proven one thing its that she is diffcult to predict when she wants to be (bah, a pox on H/G). Although I can't come up with a reasonable scenario that could justify Snape (to me at least), that doesn't mean JKR won't spring one on us. I'm leaning towards Snape being proven on the side of light in the next book despite my instincts because I don't think she wants to leave us with the impression that DD is the worlds biggest fool. On the other hand, there were so many mentions of Dumbledore's falibility in the story that Snape being DD's worst mistake is hardly beyond the bounds of possibility. phoenixgod2000 From tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 21 01:31:37 2005 From: tankgirl73 at sympatico.ca (heather the buzzard) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:31:37 -0400 Subject: Nice little parallelism Message-ID: <42DEFAF9.7050306@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 133706 Wow... I'm away from the PC for a few hours and I find *277* posts to catch up on... there's no way I can get them all done tonight, and I just wanted to dash off a cute little thing I just noticed while starting my first re-read... so to quote many already, "Apologies if this has already been brought up but..." (I certainly have not seen this mentioned yet in the several hundred posts I HAVE got through in the last 2 days) When DD and Harry first set out after leaving the Dursley's, DD tells Harry to have his wand at the ready, but that they're not likely to be attacked tonight. Harry asks why, and DD answers "You are with me." (Cdn edition p. 59). And of course, we all know the extremely touching line when they're on their way back to Hogwarts after cave, that DD is not worried because "I am with you." (Cdn edition p. 540) What a beautiful, beautiful turnaround, demonstrating the 'powershift' that has happened and is happening... the transfer of importance, the source of safety and protection, from DD onto Harry to get ready for book 7. We've had many mentions of the tears and heartaches caused by the beauty of DD's line at the end... it just struck me as all the more meaningful given that (IMO obviously deliberate) foreshadowing and turnaround from the early part of the book. heather the buzzard From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 01:37:58 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:37:58 -0000 Subject: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione/Quidditch comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133707 Iris: As for Ginny, and her brisk reaction towards Hermione, couldn't we > understand that actually, she sees Hermione as a menace? Hermione is > Harry's friend, since the beginning. She is brilliant, Harry trusts > her, she's always there to help him. Moreover, Hermione is an > attractive girl. Ginny isn't blind and sees how Ron behaves. She > also knows what happened in GoF: Hermione, without making an effort, > had managed to seduce Krum, a Quidditch star player. When Ginny > bashes her, it's precisely about Quidditch. Quidditch is a tie > between Harry and Ginny; what would happen if Hermione started > showing an interest for the game? In other words, when Ginny tells > Hermione not to act as though she understand Quidditch, she's teling > her indirectly that she considers her as a rival. She wants Hermione > not to enter the Quidditch Pitch; she's defending her territory. Kelly L.: My take on Ginny's comment about Quidditch was just that she was personally offended about something Hermione had accidentally implied about Ginny's Quidditch abilities. I don't have the book in front of me, but IIRC Hermione had said something to the effect that Gryffindor was sunk because Harry was not going to be playing. Ginny snapped at her because she knew that she, Ginny, would be substituting as Seeker, and felt that Hermione was saying Ginny wasn't up to the task. I also don't think that's what Hermione meant to say. It's a similar situation to the one where she implied that Ron only played brilliantly because of Felix Felicis. She didn't mean either comment as an insult, but she accidentally insulted Ron and Ginny with her comments. I'm not beinbg too harsh on her about it, because I have exactly the same flaw. I think it comes from spending one's formative years with one's head in a book--sometimes both Hermione and I put our feet in our respective mouths when dealing with people. From adam at adampozek.com Wed Jul 20 22:43:48 2005 From: adam at adampozek.com (Adam C. Pozek) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:43:48 -0400 Subject: SHIPs: Comments on the Dallas Theory/Room of Requirement Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133708 Greetings from a list neophyte. I joined last night and have been weeding through the hundreds of posts, so please forgive me if I am re-hashing something. Neil espoused the Dallas theory (message 133249) in which the SHIPs in HBP are potion-induced and evidenced by unusual behavior. Hermione was the only one I thought was out-of-character when she interfered with Quidditch tryouts. Not only has she never cared about Quidditch, but the fact that she would break the rules and give Ron another excuse to neglect his schoolwork simply doesn?t fit. The others, however, are not that odd. In GoF, Ron?s jealousy of Harry caused him to behave rashly and stop talking to his best friend. It is not that odd that his jealousy of Hermione/Krum (well documented in GoF) would cause him to again behave rashly. Add to that Ginny?s scorching tirade, and it is completely believable Ron would hook-up with Lavender to get back at Hermione and disprove Ginny. The Harry/Ginny SHIP has been simmering pretty much from the beginning, and it did not surprise me at all in HBP. It is consistent with human nature that Harry would suddenly realize his feelings for Ginny upon seeing her in the arms of another. While he had know of her SHIPs with other boys, IIRC he never actually saw her lip-locked with any of them. I did find the break-up a bit clich?. In fact, when they initially got together, I thought there was no way JKR would such a completely typical thing like this. I was a little surprised at how well Ginny took it, or how little attention was devoted to it. Besides, Snape and Malfoy undoubtedly already knew of the relationship and would pass along that useful bit of info. Since they were already gone at the time of the break-up, they wouldn?t know it had ended. In addition, Harry and Ginny no longer being involved would not change his feelings for her. In fact, it would probably make them stronger. Since both LV and Snape are skilled Legilimens (sp?) and Harry is no good at Oclumency (sp?), isn?t it likely that any encounter with either one of them would reveal Harry?s feelings for Ginny. I also wonder if this doesn?t have something to do with Harry?s ability to love that DD references numerous times. I am sure he loves Ron and Hermione in a different way. However, he does not try to deter them from helping him find the Horcruxes, even though their friendship and continued support would surely put them at as much risk (if not more) than Ginny. I know it is odd for a guy to wonder about this, but I think it is the only one of my questions that hasn?t already been thoroughly explored on the list. Apart from the ridikulus clich? of the Harry/Ginny breakup, I think HBP was brilliant. The next couple of years will be quite long. As least we have 1 (and maybe 2) of the movies to look forward to in the interim. Any thoughts? Adam C. Pozek From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 02:09:44 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:09:44 -0000 Subject: murder is NOT in Snape's character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: > 4. He went and told Voldemort of what he heard about the prophecy.. > and Voldie went and made the mistake of marking Harry as his equal. > Snape did the talking and Voldemort did the hurting on that occasion. > Snape must be a truly great Legitimens if Voldemort still trusts him > after that disaster... I just love the way he omitted the problem > while explaining "everything" to Bellatrix :) > > But this is why Snape is an "evildoer", imo. He's an accessory to a crime. Without Snapes information, Voldemort would not have learned of the prophecy and wouldn't have gone to Godric's Hollow to murder Harry. The part Snape played in the murders of James and Lily are as important as the part Voldemort played, which makes him no better, morally or ethically, than Voldemort, imo. Just because he wasn't doing the AK that night doesn't absolve him. Milz From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 02:22:14 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:22:14 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Comments on the Dallas Theory/Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133710 No more ridiculous than or cliched than their joining. How anyone can see H/G as anything other than a bad freudian dream come true is beyond me. Harry and Ginny share aboslutely no profound moments together, nothing that would indicate the sort of love that Harry was supposed to be feeling. No moments of passion, no moments of sharing or pain. for two people who are supposed to have a lot in common we saw very little of it. There is absolutely no chemistry or passion between them. What real forshadowing for their relationship occured? Do they belong together because it would be like lily and james returned? Is it because Harry saved her from the big bad monster? Those aren't reasons, those are the cliches that JKR should be turning on her head instead of embracing. It's like embarassingly bad Fan Fic the way Harry jumps into his feelings. All of sudden He just wanted her without any real catalyst for the change in emotions. Even for teenage boys there needs to be a reason for the shift in perception and there wasn't one for Harry. I don't think it was a love potion, I think it was just poor writing. phoenixgod2000 > Apart from the ridikulus clich? of the Harry/Ginny breakup, I think HBP was > brilliant. The next couple of years will be quite long. As least we have 1 > (and maybe 2) of the movies to look forward to in the interim. > > Any thoughts? > > Adam C. Pozek From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Thu Jul 21 02:27:37 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:27:37 -0000 Subject: The Horcrux that time forgot.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Alice's memory was crippled, her body and mind now permanently bound > in excruciating agony, but somewhere barely intact she kept something, > something very very important to her son. If only she could remember > what it was..... *snip* > Gum Wrappers, JKR has them strewn all across her web desk, legions of > fans have analysed and reanalysed the every canon aspect of this > mysterious candy wrap so important to Alice Longbottom. And now, > maybe, we know why. Hmmm...I'll have to do some thinking on this one, but I agree - we all knew there was more to the story than just some pathetic attempt at connection with Neville. Perhaps giving him those wrappers was a clue to something which may well be the horcrux. Personally, I believe Neville will play a part in the final book, but I am still convinced that Harry's scar is a horcrux. Kathi, who is anxious to hear others' thoughts on this intriguing thread. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:29:47 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:29:47 -0000 Subject: Nice little parallelism In-Reply-To: <42DEFAF9.7050306@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133712 Heather the Buzzard wrote: ...edited... Harry asks why, and DD answers "You are with me." that DD is not worried because "I am with you." We've had many mentions of the tears and heartaches caused by the beauty of DD's line at the end... it just struck me as all the more meaningful given that (IMO obviously deliberate) foreshadowing and turnaround from the early part of the book. Juli: I agree with you Heather, it was beautiful. It made my heart beat faster, it really touched me, to have the greatest wizard of the age trust a 16 year old. In the beginning as you say, Harry is scared of a possible atteack, but he doesn't worry because he's with Dumbledore. And then, DD is poioned, in a lot of pain, and he doesn't worry because Harry's with him. I think it was a way for DD saying "Harry, my time's done, now it's up to you to save the world" Juli - convincing herself there's no point of even trying to catch up with all the message. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 02:35:34 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:35:34 -0000 Subject: Ron & Hermione's Early Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adam Corbett" wrote: > It's obviously difficult to get through all the posts, but I don't > think this has been addressed (I may be missing something obvious) > with all the more exciting mysteries towards the end... > > When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, Ron & Hermione have obviously > been discussing his situation, but seem much more reluctant to talk to > him than they have in the past. Has anyone picked up on what they > could be referring to? When they're talking about him being 'off with > Dumbledore', Ron starts to say what he and Hermione thought might've > been going on, but she stops him. And they're pretty weird with him > for quite some time (even with not believing him about Draco - in the > past, Hermione has been much more ready to pick up on subtle clues, > and Ron always wants to believe the worst of a Slytherin - this seemed > very strange as well). > > I was wondering if anyone had a clue what they were thinking - did > they think Dumbledore had taken him to battle Voldemorte? Did they > think Harry might be the next D.A.D.A. teacher? Did they think he's > found a way to communicate with Sirius? > > I really have no idea, but want some explination for his friends' > oddness starting out this story. > The book picks up a few weeks after Sirius' death. So they are probably uncomfortable bringing up Sirius or the events surrounding Sirius' death to Harry. Even in the real world, many people find it hard to give comfort to the grieving. So why should these characters be any different? But when they are talking about Tonk's depression (Hermione's assumption of survivor's guilt), Harry opens up more. Milz From Jen at alveymedia.com Thu Jul 21 02:15:26 2005 From: Jen at alveymedia.com (Jennifer Nielsen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:15:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The remaining Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133714 >>> > > You're forgetting Riddle's diary, it was a Horcrux too, one that has >> > already been destroyed. >> > >> > Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. It means >> > that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. >> > >> > Alina. > ...Yes, but what if Harry ?(as heir of Gryffindor)? is the Gryffindor item? This may make sense particularly because the only other ?item? ever discussed is the sword, hanging safely in DD?s (oops, McGonagall?s) office. Jen From gertgal at aol.com Thu Jul 21 02:40:59 2005 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:40:59 -0000 Subject: So, Dumbledore's a tragic hero. So what? (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133715 I'm certain that this has been mentioned in pieces, but the search function and I can't find a nice conglomeration. I believe that with the closing of HBP, Dumbledore becomes a tragic hero. Specifically, here's why: Aristotle's Requirement - Dumbledore's Fulfillment *Born into Nobility - Not necessarily known, but he has Godric's sword. He certainly acts regal. i think it's close enough. This is one of the more flexible ones, anyhow. *Responsible for their own fate- Certainly. Dumbledore gives no indication of being bound by a prophecy, as Harry may (or may not) be. He has always acted as he has seen fit, against Ministry decrees and popular opinion (pretty much throughout OoTP). Some even think that Dumbledore permits Snape to kill him. In this case, he certainly controls his own fate. *Endowed with a tragic flaw- I believe that this flaw is the capacity to love too much. Along with a trusting spirit, this leads Dumbledore into many difficulties, eventually including his own death. Even if Dumbledore asked/permitted/allowed Snape to kill him, his extreme love for and trust of Snape led to the sticky situation. *Doomed to make a serious error in judgement- I see at least two: not informing Harry of the prophecy, and trusting Snape. Both errors led to death- I'd call that Serius for sure. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) *Fall from great heights or great esteem- Well, this quality comes up several times. Earlier, Dumbledore is fired from the Wizengamot and other things. His worth has declined in the eyes of Snape and others as he ages and becomes even more trusting and loving. He is no longer so feared by Voldemort. Finally, and most poignantly, he falls from the ramparts when he dies- falling form great heights, literally. *Realizes he has made an irreversible mistake- Just before his death ("Severus, please.") He knows what is coming. *Faces and accepts death with honor- yes. He saves Harry, again. He is kind to Draco. He asks Snape ("Severus, please.") But I don't recall that he begs or grovels in any sort of demeaning fashion. *Meets a tragic death- Naw. *The audience is left with a sense of waste and fear- to some degree, yes. We mourn the death of the greatest wizard we know, and we wish he could have stuck around to help Harry again. We also sense that he had access to the kind of power that Voldemort has, but he chooses not to use this. Minerva states this for us in chapter one of SS. So, I think that's a decent argument that Dumbledore is a tragic hero. But so what? What is the purpose? In his Poetics, Aristotle argues that a good tragic hero arouses the emotions of fear and pity and, through catharsis, cleanses the audience of them. I can't help but see a connection with the phoenix. The old, ugly bird is consumed in a painful, apparently tragic event, but it emerges with the raw strength of new birth, and grows quickly into its new glory. Similarly, Dumbledore is consumed, but his tragic death purifies his audience of fear and pity. Harry and those affected by Dumbledore's death have experienced their catharsis and will emerge stronger, clearer, and extremely purpose-driven. At the very end of HBP, we see this in Ron, Hermione and Harry as they prepare to go hunt down the remaining Horcruxes. In a sense, Dumbledore's death frees them from the obligation they have to the school, allowing them to pursue a greater purpose. Finally, what all this have to do with the future? I think it's quite reasonable to expect a great final showdown between Voldemort and Harry. "Neither can live while the other survives." However, the prophecy does not say that one has to live the other very long. I think that the winner of the great battle will have to die sometime shortly afterward in a tragic way. This tragic death after the victorious killing of the other will be the final catharsis that cleanses the wizarding community from this long, long ordeal. Almost as long as this post. >From the author of her first mini-essay, Ginger From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:42:02 2005 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:42:02 -0000 Subject: Yet More Jumbled Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > For > 16 years, Dumbledore's goal has been to raise Harry to adulthood and > provide him with all the knowledge he will need to defeat Voldemort. > He dies as his work is completed and in a manner that manages to save > a child from becoming a killer. But...but...*has* that task been completed? IMO, all that Harry's left with is knowledge of Horcruxes (Horcrucis?). So, let's assume Harry finds each Horcrux LV's left behind...then what? He hides in the Diagon Alley School Book Depository and aims an AK at LV? He duels with LV and shoots first and LV says "Oh, right. Yes, dead. Sorry, I'll lie down now."? My biggest worry is that Harry does not have the "chops" to kill LV. He plays defense well, but he is not someone generally considered a powerful wizard. Will he acquire these skills in the process of finding each Horcrux? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adairfletch" wrote: > anthyroserain wrote: > > I'm not sure what you mean by "all the anti-feminist JKR opinion." > > All I've seen was my post, and a lot of other posts criticizing > > it. You're definitely in the popular camp, so no need to put your > > neck out. > > > > I don't believe I ever said that JKR wasn't a feminist. Certainly > > she is. But I do think her depictions of women in HPB come off as > > rather old-fashioned and cliched, and though they may not be > > particularly objectionable individually, as a whole I think they > > make an unsettling picture. > Yeah, Molly is the given stereotype, but Hermione, Fleur, Tonks, and > I'll add McGonagall, Luna especially, Bellatrix, Maxime, and >numerous others break traditional female archetypes. And that's >the one thing I have always respected JKR for the most: she's >demolished fantasy archetypal characters in her series, and >replaced them with vivid, three-dimensional characters. I >personally believe JKR has succeeded in giving all girls at least >one female character to which they can relate, or can recognize >from their own lives. Now, perhaps I am addled by a Y chromosome, maybe it's because I am not remotely progressive...but I reread the passages in question and, having stared at them and blinked a while, just don't see the forest nor the trees of this argument. For example, mentioning that Merope MIGHT HAVE lost her magical powers as a result of her unhappiness as re. Tom Riddle, Sr., and asking "But does it ever happen to *men*?" leads me to ponder when has this been mentioned as having happened to *anyone*? I liked that Ginny was able to firmly disagree with Hermione, and I didn't see it as some sort of statement on what it takes to make a woman "succeed" or what that definition of "success" is/ought to be. Is pugnacity an anti-feminist trait? However, I kind of thought it was interesting that while it was sweet that Fleur said she'd never abandon Bill because of his scars, Anthyroserain said: "I can't help but think that we would *never* see the reverse, gender-wise." To which I wonder...why is it so readily assumed the male is the one fixated on looks? I think the reason that was written as was--and eleventy gazillion times more interesting--is that this scene provides Fleur with new depth. Prior to this it is assumed she is shallow and vapid and only involved with Bill because he is handsome and cool. Personally, I think JKR portrays women and men as both being equally capable of bravery, intelligence, evil, sadism, love, hate. Hogwarts has had headmistresses since the era of cavepersons. I think at no point is a character's behavior(s) chalked up to sex roles, i.e., if Neville is forever losing Trevor The Toad, it's not because he's a boy, it's because he is, well, Neville. I'm not particularly horrified that the only characters portrayed as inept (Lockhart), scavenging (Mundungus), treacherous (Pettigrew) or toadying (Slughorn) are men. :-) Now, on a completely different front, I am of the opinion that the gum wrappers Alice hands Neville are a HUGE clue as to the whereabouts of a horcrux. -Joe in SoFla From yellows at aol.com Thu Jul 21 02:49:52 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:49:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD's portrait Message-ID: <1c3.2cff6d8b.30106750@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133717 In a message dated 7/20/2005 5:12:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kathrin.p at gmail.com writes: Gail wrote: > > It is interesting to note that DD appeared after death in a portrait > in his office, sleeping during H's visit to P.McG, (not ready/able to > talk /animate ,yet?) However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in > a talking portrait... Kathrin: But does everyone who died appear in a painting? We have never heard of James and Lily and all the others being in a talking painting, have we? So I'm just not sure whether Sirius is dead or alive. Could as well be only the important wizards and witches end up in a painting after their death... But then, I suppose we'll find out more about it in book 7 if it is really important! Kathrin Brief Chronicles now: I, for no really good reason, got the impression that portraits came up in Hogwarts only after Headmasters passed away because that was a Hogwarts tradition. I suppose I only thought this because McG clearly took DD's portrait as a sign that DD was really gone, and I've never seen this happen before. So I assumed it was something special to Hogwarts. But I would like to know more about how the portraits work, and what makes them different than real life. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stonehenge.orders at verizon.net Thu Jul 21 02:50:43 2005 From: stonehenge.orders at verizon.net (kjirstem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:50:43 -0000 Subject: Tonks in HBP ( spoilers of course!) / love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133718 > > > > Katherine (message 133279): > > > > >I really think that the only thing wrong with Tonks was > > >unrequited love. > > > > Kjirstem: > > I do believe that Tonks loves Lupin, I just want to make that > >clear. But, what I want to know is how do you rationalize her > >behavior in the two situations I highlighted in my original post > >(132970) (Tonks in the corridor by the Room of Req't and Tonks > >during the battle)? > > I have trouble reconciling this explanation with her behavior in > > these two places. > > > > K: In the corridor outside the RoR she was preoccupied because she > had heard about the werewolf attacks and feared that the worst had > happened to the man she loved. In the battle, her focus was split > because her mind was on Lupin's welfare above all. > kjirstem: I'm more curious what she is doing in that particular corridor. I'm with Hermione on this one (pg 467 US ed): "It's a bit odd," said Hermione, who for some reason looked very concerned. "She's supposed to be guarding the school, why's she suddenly abandoning her post to come and see Dumbledore when he's not even here?" Tonks is in the wrong place, it isn't as though she's been seen wandering around the school all year, and mostly the people in that corridor seem to be looking for the Room of Requirement. I think it is suspicious, that's all. On the other hand, one of JKR's comments in the Leaky/Mugglenet interview seems to indicate that Tonks behavior is indeed a red herring. (About halfway through the interview, the section where they are talking about romance in HBP and JKR is talking about a theory of Dorothy Sayers') "? that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people's motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring." Katherine/K: >Book 6 uses the different characters to showcase the different kinds >of love and different stages of love people go through: > >Unrequited Love (Ginny for Harry; Harry for Ginny; Tonks for Lupin; >Merope for Tom Sr.) >Marital Love (Arthur & Molly) >Unconditional Love (Fleur & Bill; Tonks & Lupin; Dumbledore & Harry) >Vainglorious Love (Slughorn & any number of his opportunistic >connections) >Infatuation (Romelda Vane for Harry; Ron for Romelda Vane while under >the influence of Potion; Tom Sr. for Merope while under the influence >of potion) >Empty love (Merope for the bewitched Tom Riddle) >Childish Crush (Ron for Rosmerta) >Erotic Love (Ron & Lavender, Ginny and Dean) >Fulfilled Love (Tonks & Lupin at the end, Harry and Ginny toward the >end) kjirstem: I'd add Maternal Love to your list of the types of love showcased in HBP. I'm thinking of Narcissa and Draco in this book. After chapter 2, I have no doubt that Narcissa would have sacrificed herself to protect Draco, just as Lily did for Harry. kjirstem From grega126 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 02:52:15 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:52:15 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Order in HP7; Will Harry figure it out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "waterbird72" wrote: > Ah well, I wouldn't make much of a seer, but at least one prediction I > made somewhere, at some point along the way did happen in HBP: Harry > finally started asking questions. I think he also demonstrated more > analytic inclination, as well. I was impressed, for instance, when he > immediately copped on to the possibility that Draco had taken the Dark > Mark and was working on something for Voldemort, even if Ron and > Hermione weren't as convinced. (But he didn't seem too worried about > Tonks's strange behaviour, which indicates to me that he's still got a > way to go.) > I think one interesting thing about this book is that Harry was always right and Hermione and Ron were always wrong which is a complete reversal from book 5 when Hermione was always ryght. Part of Harry's growing up? grega126 From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:52:57 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:52:57 -0000 Subject: Various replies: Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133720 > little Alex: > Because quite frankly, Fleur had done nothing wrong except > being beautiful (and French) and wanting to marry her son. > Molly's treatment of the girl is, imho, absolutely horrible. > So's Hermione's and Ginny's, while I'm at it. Kate: Maybe you are forgetting that Fleur's grandmother is a Veela. Men are extrememly drawn to Veela magically and women resent this. I figured, personally, it was only the natural disgust women feel towards Veela (or, in this case, part Veela) Fleur was able to get past this once she proved herself and her love for Bill. And in Fleur's case, you must admit she acted a bit of a snob in regards to the Weasley house, Molly's taste in music, etc. That doesn't exactly endear one to a future MIL. Bookworm: --- (All quotes from Scholastic edition) Ch5, p92: "Fleur turned back to Harry, swinging her silvery sheet of hair so that it whipped Mrs. Weasley across the face." Ch5, p101: "'At Beauxbatons,' said Fleur complacently, 'we 'ad a different way of doing things. I think eet was better....'" Ch16, p330: "Fleur, who seemed to find Celestina very dull, was talking so loudly in the corner that a scowling Mrs. Weasley kept point her wand at the volume control, so that Celestina grew louder and louder." Ch16, p333: "Celestina ended her song on a very long, high-pitched note and loud applause issued out of the wireless, which Mrs. Weasley joined in with enthusiastically. 'Eez eet over?" said Fleur loudly. 'Thank goodness, what an 'orible- '" --- Not exactly the way to endear yourself to your beloved's family, is it now? The men may have been automatically drawn to her Veela charm, but Fleur made absolutely no effort to make friends with her future sister-in-law and was disrespectful to her future mother-in- law. I don't see how Molly's treatment of her was horrible. We saw several times when Molly figuratively gritted her teeth, but we never heard a cross word toward Fleur from her. And while Ginny called her names behind her back, we didn't see Ginny or Hermione say anything nasty in front of her, either. So who was the horrible person here? Ravenclaw Bookworm From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:56:43 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:56:43 -0000 Subject: murder is NOT in Snape's character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "monika_zaboklicka" wrote: I quite understand that for most people verbal abuse of kids is evil enough. You're absoluthely right. It just happens that I belong to the "deeds speak louder than words" school of thought. It takes all kinds etc. To make things look more like a challenge, let's assume that: - anything Snape said etc. might be untrue, unless he was expressing how evil he was; - AD was just trusting once too often and paid dearly for his naivete (I don't think it was the case, but never mind)* 1. Snape's a verbal abuser - agreed. Still, he's surprisingly indiscriminate about it. Did he treat Tonks worse than Bellatrix? Was he actually KIND to Pettigrew? Or to Crabbe, in chapter 32 of OoP - "if you ever apply for a job"? vmonte: Ok, so you're saying that he's not a jerk because he is a jerk to everybody? monika wrote: 2. Snape was always fascinated by Dark Arts. Granted. He invented nasty spells, and... oh dear, did he ever use them successfully? The AK he used against Dumbledore is the first example of him casting a serious curse. The story of bullying Snape that Harry saw in his memory was confirmed by both Sirius and Remus, Black even admitted that tormenting Snape continued up till seventh year. It seems that the Marauders were better at using Snape's nasty spells than Snape himself. vmonte: Did he ever use nasty spells effectively? You're kidding right? Regarding Dumbledore: How many people do you have to murder before you should be considered a murderer? Do you really think he never used an AK curse before? What do you think that he did while he was a Death Eater then? Snape's Worst Memory: Actually, the book states that James and Snape were constantly going at each other. monika: 3. Until he AK'd Dumbledore, the only evidence of Snape's physical violence were: - he force-fed Trevor with Neville's potion, - he was seen laying in his bed killing spiders. vmonte: Again, what do you think he did while he was a DE? Vivian From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Thu Jul 21 02:58:36 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:58:36 -0000 Subject: Severus, Albinus and Machiavelli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "torigirl1976" wrote: > After I posted my post on Spinner's End I remembered > something I had read after book 4 came out. It was > an analysis by someone about how Harry Potter has shades > of Machiavelli's "The Prince" WOW Tori! I am incredibly impressed with this insight - and am saving the post to re-read. It may well be worth reading the whole book (like I'm doing this summer with Watership Down in preparation for LOST's return on ABC this fall). That is too much detail to be considered a coincidence. Is there anything more offhand that you can relate to Machiavelli's work? Kathi From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 03:03:25 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:03:25 -0000 Subject: HBP - Trelawney's Drinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133723 > > Of course, she didn't *seem* particulary drunk during the exam, but > with Trelawney, who knows? I'm quite sure she keeps a bottle of > sherry handy in that tower of hers. > > ~redandgoldlion~ There is something about her drinking. I just don't know that it makes her more susceptible to hearing (or would it be seeing) her "inner eye". However, her drinking has increased as she became more insecure and more decided to prove herself the true inheritor of Cassandra's powers. And it's now at the point where she's just sloshed all of the time. Hence the numerous bottles. The thing I find most intriguing about Trelawney is how fervently DD is working at keeping her at Hogwarts. Well, we know the reason is the prophecy and protecting her because he knows she would be target number one of LV if she ever left his protection. And LV having that knowledge makes it harder for Harry. Knowledge is power, and right now, Harry and Harry alone has that particular piece of power. That said, it makes the possible closing of Hogwarts a whole new issue, which I'm actually just thinking up. But DD would have intedended for ST to stay in her tower. And he would have intended for her to stay protected. All of which makes me think that perhaps, Hogwarts still has DD's protection, even if it is from the grave. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 03:03:53 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:03:53 -0000 Subject: Horcrux #1 Destroyed: Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133724 COS pg 310 "I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." Oi! Obviously, the diary was given to Lucius Malfoy by LV before he showed up in Godric's Hollow. What connection does the diary have to the other known and speculated horcruxes? Could only the fang of a Basilisk fang destroy the diary? Why wasn't the diary as protected as the locket? From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 03:07:23 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:07:23 -0000 Subject: Ginny, Snape and assorted desiderata ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > So, starting with Ginny and Harry, I have no problem with this > relationship at all. I'd long thought that the only two girls who > made sense as interests for Harry were Hermione and Ginny, and despite > assertions from several that they did not see this coming, or that it > was to peremptorily presented, I think the basis for it lies > definitely as far back as CoS, and even SS/PS. > I used to be a very active member of this Group a few years ago, and I clearly remember many discussions about Hermione's romantic feelings for Harry and her non-romantic feelings for Ron. IMO, these people tended to be the ones who identified with Hermione and wanted her to be with Harry because they preferred Harry (the hero, the celebrity of the series) over Ron (the sidekick). And for these people, any pairing contrary to what they want will be unsuitable. That's why I don't bother with the "shippers"---they're too narrow-minded, which makes them overlook many of the blatantly obvious clues Rowling has been dropping in the previous books. > > As for Snape, I think his loving Lily is still on the table as a real > possibility. Why? Slughorn has said repeatedly that Lily was very > gifted at potions. This opens at several possible arguments on the > point, and her are a few of them. > > First, since we "know" that Snape was very gifted in this field, it > might be the case that he helped Lily, and that the dislike of her > that he also been stated in canon came later due to her rejection of > him in favor of James. In this line, it could be argued that her > disapproval of James' treatment of Snape in the pensieve scene was in > part a certain loyalty to someone who had helped her, and not merely > her sense of fairness. > In OoP US hardcover page 649 Chapter: Snape's Worst Memory: "there you go, " he {James] said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus-" "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" I don't get the feeling that Snape had the hots for Lily with that remark.... BUT this does give an interesting look into Snape's psyche: he's a half Muggle, yet he holds a Muggle born in contempt. So Snape is projecting his perceived undesirable qualities onto Lily (and other Muggle borns). I don't buy that Snape co-wrote the notes in the Potions book nor that he had help from anyone in his year. That detracts from Snape's abilities as a potions master. > I don't see the complaints about Tonks and Remus at all. I think what > we are seeing is simply that the Potterverse is broader than canon. > People continue to live lives, fall in love, fight, etc., outside of > canon, and it is not necessary for canon to incorporate all of this > into canon. To me, this demonstrates a rather richer imagination on > the part of JKR than many an author, and is to her credit, especially > as she is often able to use "off canon" to build plot that is > subsequently canonized. > I also think it would have detracted from the Harry plot if Rowling delved into the Tonks Remus relationship more. Let's face it, Harry is in school. He has limited contact with Tonks and Remus during the school year---why would we need to cut away to a dinner date with Tonks and Remus? This is Harry Potter not "The O.C." Milz From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:29:30 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:29:30 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133726 My sincere condolences to the H/Hr shippers. I am not being sarcastic or rude, I do know what it's like to believe in something for years and have it be an illusion. Fortunately, there is so much more to the HP series than the teen romances! I just got done reading part two of JKR July 16th interview on Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. If you haven't read it yet, there are some answers there about HBP. She also lays to rest, in my opinion, some of the Tonks theories. -Casmir From pdoshi72 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 01:43:50 2005 From: pdoshi72 at earthlink.net (pdoshi72) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:43:50 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133727 Hi, I've been lurking for a while now, but I have a theory about how JKR might get Harry back to Hogwarts for the last book. I have tried to get through as many messages as I can, but they've been overwhelming, so sorry if I am repeating someone else's idea. What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? She would get Harry back to Hogwarts, Ron and Hermione could continue their N.E.W.T. studies, Harry would probably still have time to search for the Horcruxes, with the help of Ron and Hermione, and he could even still have contact with Ginny. I was also thinking of the scenario in which this could happen. Since Harry would only be 17, he would be a surprising choice for DADA teacher. But what if parents refused to send their children to Hogwarts now that Dumbledore is (sob!) gone (as far as we know, anyway). What if the only way McGonagall can have enough students to keep the school open is if she can convince Harry to come there. His presence would make the parents feel better and more secure about their child's safety. He is the "Chosen One" after all in the minds of a lot of the wizarding community. There is precedent for Harry as teacher-in OotP when he taught the D.A. He did a fantastic job by most accounts. Why not make it official in Book 7? Also, since Harry would probably only be doing it that year, it would continue the 1 year jinx that is on the DADA position. It would also make a nice parallel to Dumbledore, who was DADA teacher before he was headmaster. Just some thoughts I had after I read HBP. I would really love any comments-see if my theory holds water or not. pdoshi72, who is holding her breath waiting for feedback on her pet theory From jcf at ieee.org Thu Jul 21 02:53:06 2005 From: jcf at ieee.org (John Fisher) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:53:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133728 sienna291973 wrote: [Re: Ginny] > in-your-face parallels drawn between Lily and Ginny. But their ending > was off-kilter. Why does he not tell her about the prophecy? Why does > he not protest when Ron and Hermione say they are coming with him if > he's intent on going on alone? Aren't Ron and Hermione at *more* risk > than Ginny? Would he care less if they died? Why does Ginny only > manage a `twisted' smile and not shed a tear over their breakup? To me this is why Ginny is "right" for Harry, in ways that, say, Hermione never would be: she's got a great deal of nerve, and she respects and *trusts* Harry, even to the point of accepting that he's the Chosen One, that she isn't, and that he desperately wants someone to come back to. Of course Ron and Hermione are at more risk, and he might even be more devastated by their deaths than by Ginny's at this stage. But Ron and Hermione are his "fellow warriors," as they always have been. Ginny's his girlfriend. You'd find the same feelings at work in G.I. Average Joe: he cares intensely for his fellow soldiers, but he doesn't try to keep them out of the fight. [gender bias noted] Mind you, I don't trust Ginny to sneak back into the fight. She'd be in good literary company. -John, picturing Voldemort's face covered by monstrous bats From nightmasque at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 02:53:28 2005 From: nightmasque at yahoo.com (Feng Zengkun) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721025328.38233.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133729 Ginger wrote: >>I entirely agree that Dumbledore, while perhaps not wishing to die, allowed it to happen. It simply does not make logical sense that Dumbledore could not stop a single teenage wizard, even while unarmed. I believe that, even in a weakened state, Dumbledore could have permitted his death, if he so chose.<< I thought this too, because hasn't it been mentioned before that wandless magic is possible? (after all, Harry did manage lumos without holding his wand during the Dementor attack on him and Dudley). If anyone could do it, I'd expect it to be Dumbledore. nightmasque From margotcragg at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 03:22:52 2005 From: margotcragg at hotmail.com (pookasmorning) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:22:52 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133730 I was blissfully reading the JRK interview that was posted on Mugglenet/The Leaky Cauldron, and came to a bit that has given me serious pause. *** ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope. [snip] MA: whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on ? JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. *** I was completely convinced that Snape was a triple agent and that Dumbledore was pleading with him to go through with the murder. 100% sure. Now, however, I don't know what to think. That doesn't sound to me like JKR sparing our sensibilities; it sounds like the same sort of bet-hedging she did when asked about Harry/Hermione (and the same interview shows how that one turned out). So is that it? Snape wasn't faking it? Was this whole book just hitting us over the head with "Dumbledore is totally gullible, OMG"? Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a cookie. pookasmorning From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 03:49:36 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:49:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: <20050721025328.38233.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Feng Zengkun wrote: > Ginger wrote: > > >>I entirely agree that Dumbledore, while perhaps not wishing to die, allowed it to happen. > (snip) nightmasque wrote: > I thought this too, because hasn't it been mentioned before that wandless magic is possible? (lil' snip)If anyone could do it, I'd expect it to be Dumbledore. > > nightmasque Doddiemoemoe here: I think Dumbledore trusted Snape in that he trusted Snape to act in Snapes best interests for Snape and hoped for the best. The best, was not however, what Dumbledore got, maybe a few closes, but never the best. Snape could have made short work of the DE's remaining on the tower ledge and went into hiding with Draco and Fam. and perhaps even extend DD's life a little longer. He didn't do it he chose to kill DD.. I think Snape didn't kill Harry because of a vow he made earlier to DD and because of the life debt he still owes Harry due to James saving his life. I don't think Snape knows about the horcruxes of voldemort...especially if DD trusted Snape to continue to act as he did--looking out for his own life because of the unbreakable vows he's made and his delusions of grandeur in DE circles. I think DD's "please" was begging Snape to make the right choice and he did not do it. This is why DD froze Harry...so Harry could decide for himself--as DD did.. I cannot believe Snape blew his second chance--he'll never get that from Voldemort, Harry or anyone on the lighter side of the WW.. Doddie --who is quite upset that Snape has single-handedly shown the WW that second chances are completely undeserving during war time...poor Stan Shunpike *heavy sigh* From editor at texas.net Thu Jul 21 03:06:51 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:06:51 -0500 Subject: Reposted in hopes of new discussion: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All Message-ID: <009501c58da8$888d2220$e659aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133732 This was so long ago I had honestly forgotten I predicted it--enough to be shocked when Snape did what he did. I also had forgotten how many threads it tied together. It's rather long, and I apologize for that, but I post it in its entirety for three reasons: (1) I'm not sure the bits would make sense without the context (2) There are aspects to this that I'd love to see what the current active membership think of (3) I don't know how to do those cool internal links to posts. For those of you hardy enough to read on, I salute thee! (And by the way--for those of you who tried so hard to make him a vampire--pbbtthhh! Told you so, neener, neener! To those of you who saw the light, bowed to me, and then recanted? A balloon coming your way, sometime soon, I just have to teach the owls to hold it *gently.*) ~A.Geist ------------------------------- Post 47077, from November 24, 2002: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All (was loads of Snape stuff) Amandageist drifted down from the ceiling and made a quick pass of the room, swooping through everyone and giving them the cold chills. She cleared her throat with a small sound like chalk snapping. "I," she announced, "have had a Thought. More accurately, I had a blinding insight where several people's thoughts came together. I was browsing over on the main list, since nobody seems to want to talk to me here, and I read something that Jodel said: <<< And I agree with Pip that the test of Snape bringing him > Dumbledore's head on a platter is one very strong possibility. (I > remember posting something very like it on the AOL board (IIRC) a > year or so ago.) And, what's more, I can see Dumbledore agreeing to > it. Particularly if there is a chance of buying his side some major > magical protective advantage by his willing sacrifice. >> "You may all know," the Geist continued, "that in another plane of existence I am married to my own dead-sexy version of a Inscrutable Dark-Haired Man. Some months ago he had his own original thought, which I reproduce for you here." She waved a hand and a large, floating screen appeared. It had several holes burned in it. "Ah, yes," Amandageist said. "Sorry about that. Sometimes my irritation with those blinking and pop-up ads overcomes me...and the quote is rather long, sorry." Several people, having some experience with the Geist's lectures, began edging to the exits. She regally ignored them. Words took shape on the screen: > Message 39315, Love as a Spell Component: > > My beloved, Jan, is a long ponderer and came to me today with a Harry Potter > thought (as he calls them). He has braided several threads together and > presented me with several novel takes on things, which I will now proceed to > share. > > There has been general dissatisfaction with the idea that Lily's dying for > Harry was what saved him from Voldemort. Plenty of people must have flung > themselves in front of others in Voldemort's long career as a Bad Wizard; > why should this one time be special or different? > > We are told the Potters knew Voldemort was after them. Jan suggests that the > Potters did more than hide. He suggested that Dumbledore worked with Lily, > who was very good at charms, far in advance to set a spell on Harry that > would be activated in a worst-case scenario when there was no other way to > protect him. A shield or protection that required Lily to do what she did, > integrating her love into the rest of the spell and completing it. > > I mentioned the thread of Stoned!Harry and all the alchemical symbolism to > him, and he said this fits, as Lily's love was transmuted into a protection. > The achievement of the Stone is via transmutation, and the process of > achieving it is intended not to get a Stone, but to transmute the alchemist > himself to a higher state of being. It is a process of self-perfection, not > a way to obtain gold or live forever, which is presumably why all the many > would-be's who tried it for the latter goals all failed. But I digress. > > This thought of Jan's nicely reduced the aggravation factor of Lily's > Sacrifice, as it added the extra edge I thought must be required. I > mentioned to Jan that the (accurate) distinction had been made that Lily's > love was not, after all, identified as what kept off Voldemort, but as what > kept off *Quirrell.* Nor have I understood why Voldemort's spell > *rebounded,* rather than just not working. Jan's theory also adds reason for > Lily to refuse to move aside; in addition to mother love, she was willingly > providing the key element to the last-line and strongest parts of Harry's > protection. We already know Dumbledore has set up other parts (the ancient > magic that protects him at the Dursleys, and probably more). Dumbledore is a > very powerful wizard, and was very involved with the Potters, which is why > we figured he helped Lily work this out. > > Okay. That was good. I was happy. But Jan continued. Flamel. Flamel was to > set his affairs in order and then he would die. Ah, but here we are talking > about the achiever of the Stone, the one who has achieved the higher state > of being. Here is one who is also dying willingly for a noble cause. Has his > love or purity of purpose, I wonder, been transmuted into any other type of > protective spell? A very good thought by Jan. > > And now here comes Cindy with this ludicrous disloyalty idea about Snape. > But the reason she gives--that Dumbledore has to die, and being betrayed is > the only way--hmmm. Dumbledore has to die, eh? Yeah, I agree, he probably > will. But if Jan is right, and there is a charm or spell that can transmute > a willing and loving death into a powerful protection, I can see another way > Dumbledore could exit. A very likely way. > ---------------------------- "Okay," the Geist continued, making another chilly pass through everyone to wake them up, "here's two parts, then: "1. A willing death can be a part of an extremely powerful spell. "2. We already thought Dumbledore was likely to die, simply for character-development reasons; Jan offers a reason--for the furtherance of defenses, achievable in no other way. "Oh, hush," she said, hearing the mutinous, impatient murmurs. "Of *course* this has to do with Snape. But Snape as he is an very involved thread in the whole series. *Do* keep your pants on. Or thongs. Whatever....Read this." The floating scroll cleared, and new words formed: > Message 41341, A New Thought! A New Thought! Several!: > > Jan has again done the impossible, thought of something I have not seen > discussed on the list. I'm impressed. > > He thinks that part of the closeness between Snape and Dumbledore is that > Dumbledore himself is skilled with potions. I asked him where he got that. > He referred me back to the description on the wizard card: > > "Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard > Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood > and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel." (p. 77, PS) > > Jan points out that those last two, researching the uses of dragon's blood > and alchemy, both would seem to have a very strong potions element. He says > that any Potions master under Dumbledore would have to be very good, > indeed, because two of the things Dumbledore is famous for are > potions-related. I think he has, as usual, made a great observation. > > So, thoughts? Alchemy does involve great amounts of intricate mixing and > blending and simmering, and not a lot of foolish wand-waving (to our > knowledge). I'm betting that analysis of dragon's blood did, too. Do we > think Dumbledore is no slouch when it comes to potions, and they share a > professional interest? And has this interesting thought sparked any other > random connections in anyone? > > Jan also mentions that the card obliquely introduces another angle: > professors do another thing besides teach. They do research. He thinks Snape > may be a research professor, perhaps working on something with Dumbledore. > This ties a bit into his "love as a spell component" theory I put out > earlier. Snape's teaching style is not the best, we pretty much all agree on > that--but what if teaching is not the primary reason he is at Hogwarts at > all? What if he's working on some project? > > And my related thought--what if Lily's sacrifice, as a component of Harry's > protection, was a product of such research by Snape? Jan's thought was that > Harry's protection, the reason he survived, was not simply that Lily died > for him, but that her willing sacrifice was the final element of a spell > that created the strong protection. What if Snape, having access to the > wizard likely to throw that spell, and access to Dumbledore, was > instrumental in crafting that spell? > > The other willing death we have seen, or that was strongly intimated, is > Flamel's himself. And what if a willing sacrifice *can* be incorporated into > a strong protective spell, and what if Dumbledore and Snape *are* working on > that.....? And what if Snape's task is to seem to betray Dumbledore, whose > own willing death will be a component in Voldemort's defeat? > ------------------------------ Amandageist gazed out over the sea of glazed eyes. "OKAY," she said loudly, as the screen blanked and then showed a variety of Graphic Visual Aids, "Here we have all we need to support the 'Dumbledore's Head On a Platter' theory, because it gels with all the following: "(1) Snape returned to Voldemort (likely). "(2) Voldemort set him a task to prove himself (likely). "(3) The task will be something that will be hard for Snape (or it wouldn't be proof) and good for Voldemort (probably). Ergo, Snape won't be sent after Sirius Black or Karkaroff. Killing? Hardly a challenge, in Voldemort's eyes. Killing an enemy? Candy. And neither Black nor Karkaroff are strategic targets for Voldemort. But killing Dumbledore? Proof *and* the removal of Voldemort's greatest obstacle. Likely. "(4) Snape, in canon, is a character whose every move and word is subject to varying interpretations. Valid motives, varying by 180 degrees, can be ascribed to him. Therefore, any task he must do *must* be something that is wildly misinterpretable. Most importantly, misinterpretable by Harry, such that Harry's belief leads him to do things which actually obstruct the ultimate objective (of which he is unaware), and such that a Bang that is heard across the planes will be heard when the truth is revealed. Look at this through the Harry-filter, which is how we will see it in the books: Harry has seen Dumbledore thwart Snape's desires many times. He has seen Dumbledore apparently enjoying a truly upset Snape. He has seen Snape smirk and give a very ambiguous response to Draco's suggestion that he should be headmaster. He "knows" that Snape wants the DADA position and that Dumbledore does not give it to him. This could easily, in Harry's mind, be assembled into a pattern of cause, motive, for Snape to finally turn on Dumbledore. For Harry already seriously doubts Dumbledore's wisdom in trusting Snape, now that he knows Snape was a Death Eater." Amandageist looked away from the diagrams and arrows on the screen, and noted the glint in the eyes of the BloodthirstyHappyToKill!Snapetheorists. She arched an eyebrow. She must clarify this at once. "Let me state for the record, that *my* take on Snape does not include him being homicidal for pleasure. I think he is entirely capable of killing, when there is a very good reason for it. But I don't think he will actually kill Dumbledore himself, unless it is some scenario that Dumbledore stages where Snape does so without meaning to (and we all know how Dumbledore loves moving the pieces around, so I'd have to put this in the 'likely' column)." The watchers could see, through the Geist's head, the visual aids on the screen adjusting themselves as she spoke. "I believe that, however Dumbledore dies, both Harry and Voldemort will *believe* that Snape is responsible. Snape will foster this belief in Voldemort; it will be an unfortunate conclusion drawn by Harry (who for whatever reason--Dumbledore's general lack of any desire to explain anything, a misunderstood conversation, a missed message, etc.--will not know or will refuse to believe that Snape did not do it). "At this point, Snape and Dumbledore will have accomplished two key things: --Snape will have proven himself to Voldemort and will be reinstated with full DE honors or whatever, in the inner circle. Even if he wasn't in the Inner inner circle before, I think he will be now, because (a) Voldemort's followers have diminshed somewhat and (b) Snape now has a very useful position. --The spell, whatever it is, to which Dumbledore's death is integral, will have been completed (or nearly so). "These are key because Snape will now be in a *superb* position to implement or otherwise set in motion or effect, the spell. Having a tremendous spell ready is of no use at all, if the spell cannot be cast or implemented due to lack of access. Access is of no use without a weapon. Snape will have both the access and the means." Amandageist waved the screen away. The sighs of relief that filled the room blew her across the room; she glared at the assembly as she returned to hovering just over the bar. A book materialized where the screen had been and flipped open; a section of type enlarged itself. Everyone read 'To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, *very* long day. After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure.' (PS, p. 215) "See?" Amandageist asked. "It's right there in the first book. Dumbledore does not fear death. And in canon, he has already accepted a willing death (two actually, both Flamels) to achieve a greater good. Further, if the Pensieve shows nothing else, it does show that Dumbledore has a well-organized mind. [And quite possibly the Pensieve can be left to another after he dies; although it may go dark and empty if its source is gone.] "I know, I know," the Geist sighed. "This is Major, you want more Bangs. Okay, here. "Harry, given his age and past, will be unable to accept Dumbledore's death as anything but tragedy--a further detriment to his interpretation of Snape's role, and an opening for Bangs when he finds out the truth and/or struggles to accept it. Harry will be forced to the point where Snape was, in the Shrieking Shack--given the opportunity to recognize that an object of hatred had been misunderstood and was, in actuality, as much a victim as himself. Snape rejected Lupin as another to whom Dumbledore's second chance meant the world; it didn't even seem to register. Will Harry fail where Snape did, or will Harry be able to get around his own hatred for Snape and accept the truth? Bang. "And Snape himself. He is also very young, and to quote Jan one last time, 'has a past with a capital P.' While he will be old enough to accept what Dumbledore is doing/has made him do, on an *intellectual* level, he will be having massive problems of his own on the *emotional* level. He's already pretty unsteady there as it is. Snape's own difficulties with what transpires will further confuse things--he has his own reactions to deal with on top of everything else. I think that Dumbledore's death will devastate Snape, for I believe that to Snape as to Lupin, Dumbledore's trust has meant everything. Leaving room for a loud Bang when Snape *must* deal with all this." Amandageist glanced over at Cindy, to see if all this Banging pleased her, and was irked to see her head down on the bar beside her drink, gently snoring. The Geist clapped her hands and the book disappeared as well. She glanced down at the bar. "It'd be nice, it would, to be able to drink after all that," she sighed. "Oh, well. I'll be available for questions if anyone needs me; in the meantime, I'll be making myself useful." She zoomed up to the ceiling and busied herself filling balloons with garlic water to drop on the Vampire!Snapetheorists. ~Amanda From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 03:31:14 2005 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:31:14 -0000 Subject: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133733 "Jenserai Bariman" wrote: The plans may have simply been a method of getting Draco not to kill Dumbledore. By having Snape AK Dumbledore we now have a live, potentially redeemable Draco and Snape is in a better position than ever to help bring down Voldemort. Obviously the question remains, is Snape planning to continue passing info to the order and if so, how? But that too, is another discussion. Krissy: I think that Snape may be playing both sides against each other. Half-Blood Prince is a rather interesting name to give yourself...there are hints that maybe he felt something about killing Dumbledore, but I think it suited Snape to end Dumbledore's life, so he did. Whatever good that is in Snape, however, may be eradicated by killing Dumbledore. He'll be hunted by his former colleagues; and if he really doesn't like the Death Eaters, he may try to become the next Voldemort. What else does he have to lose? If Snape IS evil, I don't hold out much hope that we'll see a redeemed Draco in the future either. Did anyone notice that JKR did not mention anything about what Draco did after Dumbledore died? I wonder what his face looked like, and how he was feeling... Krissy From lebowjessica at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 03:40:27 2005 From: lebowjessica at yahoo.com (lebowjessica) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:40:27 -0000 Subject: A Different Opinion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133734 I almost feel bad in saying this but I was extremely disappointed in HBP. It was rushed at points, JKR almost completely ignored OOTP, leaving so many thoughts and questions unanswered. IE: Percy, completely changing the character of Hermione to a shell of her former self, and leaving poor Luna with almost no part at all. To me, it felt like JKR had a checklist of questions to answer and just added scenes for the sake of answering those questions, like Chapter 2, a big question was where is PP and what has he been up to? well we did get an answer, I must say though the parts of LV's past were my favorite, I thought they were extremely well written, but were lost in a sea of confusion. After listening and see several interviews I am convince that JKR, is deeply affected by what her fans say and that it has great effect on her writing, even going so far as to change what may or may not was planned. I hav read some of the posts comparing to LOTR, which is a natural comparison, but I also thougt the scene w/Ginny was very "Spiderman". I am looking forward to book 7 as I hope that JKR returns to the styling of the first four books, as I think they were wonderful, I cannot imagine the amount of pressure she feels to write, and I do think she is a wonderful story teller. I am just wondering if anyone feels the same way that I do. lebowjessica From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 04:13:54 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:13:54 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pookasmorning" wrote: > So is that it? Snape wasn't faking it? Was this whole book just > hitting us over the head with "Dumbledore is totally gullible, OMG"? I wouldn't say that Dumbledore is totally gullible, I would say that Dumbledore has his faults and that the readership has overlooked these faults for a long, long, long time. From PS/SS, Dumbledore has made mistakes and has handled some things rather poorly due to his trust in people to do the right thing: trusting that the Dursley's would treat Harry like their own son, trusting Quirrell, trusting Lockhart, and the list goes on and on. Rowling managed to get the readership to believe what the other characters in the book believed--that Dumbledore is infallable. But if you objectively re-read the previous books, concentrating on Dumbledore's decisions and their outcomes---you'll see that Dumbledore is as fallable as the next character. The readership "trusts" Snape. Why? Because Dumbledore trusts Snape--forget that he was a Death Eater. Forget that he was the one who told Voldemort the prophecy. Forget that he has an intense dislike for Harry. Forget all of that---Dumbledore trusts him, so Snape "has" to be trustworthy. Ingenious of Rowling--absolutely ingenious! > Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding > narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be > good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a > cookie. > > pookasmorning I think the readership has been playing with their own expectations. The best example is the Harry-Hermione shipper thing. Read Rowlings comments about "dropping heavy anvils" about the Ron-Hermione relationship in the previous books (she points to PoA specifically). Then read the H-HR shippers arguments. I pointed out in a previous thread that these shippers tend to heavily identify with either Harry or Hermione or both. This identification is to the point where they don't acknowledge the "heavy anvils" crashing on their heads when they read them. So I think they build their own expectations up and reinforce these expectations by constant rumination on their beliefs. When Rowling is unequivocal, they head for denial and make up even more theories why they are still right to cling to their hopes and desires. The Draco and Snape apologists have the same problem (see Rowling's idea on that subject---it's very true and I share her concern as well). I try not to read between the letters because I've learned that these books are best enjoyed when taken at face value. Milz From travellerrose at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 04:00:55 2005 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:00:55 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133736 I think Neville and Luna will be very important in the seventh book and will be a vital part of Harry's little army against Voldemort. Was anyone else as moved by this passage as I was: ``with a rush of affection for both of them, Harry saw Neville being helped into a sat by Luna. They alone of all the DA had responded to Hermione's summons the night that Dumbledore had died, and Harry knew why: they were the ones that missed the DA the most...probably the ones who had checked their coins regularly in the hope that there would be another meeting..." This brought a lump to my throat. Neville and Luna are always there when they are needed, come Hell or High Magic, and they will be there at the end. I love Neville. He will be a great man and I think he will be the one to go back to Hogwarts as a teacher. Rose From hautbois1 at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 04:17:09 2005 From: hautbois1 at comcast.net (ohnooboe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:17:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133737 SNIP!!! > Doddiemoemoe wrote: > Snape could have made short work of the DE's remaining on the tower > ledge and went into hiding with Draco and Fam. and perhaps even > extend DD's life a little longer. He didn't do it he chose to kill > DD.. Pat here! I find myself longing for Snape not to be the "evil one" he's shown himself to be in HBP...anyway... Yes, doddie, Snape did have the opportunity to not kill DD. However, I don't think the option of fleeing into the night with Draco existed. Ron tells us...I believe...though the book is in another room and I couldn't possibly be torn from the computer...in any case, we are told that if one does not go through with the stipulations of the Unbreakable Vow, you die. So, Snape's options were to kill DD, or to not kill him and die himself. Doddie says: > I think DD's "please" was begging Snape to make the right choice and > he did not do it. This is why DD froze Harry...so Harry could decide > for himself--as DD did.. This has probably been covered, but perhaps DD knew his time was nigh and having passed to Harry the Horcrux information felt that Snape's continued "undercover" workings with DE's was more important the his own continued wizard life. After all, he knows that HE is not the one to bring about the demise of LV...only Harry can do that. Did DD help in the right direction and then sacrifice himself so that Harry and Snape can continue their work...? sigh...so much to think about. Pat...again, clinging to the possibility that Snape isn't the foul, treacherous slime that his murder shows... From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 04:18:36 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:18:36 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pdoshi72" wrote: > > What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? She would get > Harry back to > Hogwarts, Ron and Hermione could continue their N.E.W.T. studies, > Harry would probably > still have time to search for the Horcruxes, with the help of Ron and > Hermione, and he > could even still have contact with Ginny. > > Also, since Harry would probably only be doing > it that year, it would > continue the 1 year jinx that is on the DADA position. PDoshi, I thought of this too. I think offerring Harry a teaching position would be an excellent way to get the otherwise disinclined Harry back to Hogwarts. He wants his friends to be protected, he wants to learn more himself, maybe he could even continue to take a few classes. Obviously since he's only going to be 17, he won't be fully qualified, but JKR could get around that. Maybe he could take a crash course in advanced DADA with Moody/McGonagall etc. over the summer. Allie From hautbois1 at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 04:23:31 2005 From: hautbois1 at comcast.net (ohnooboe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:23:31 -0000 Subject: A Different Opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133739 wrote: > I am looking forward to book 7 as I hope that JKR returns to the > styling of the first four books, as I think they were wonderful, I > cannot imagine the amount of pressure she feels to write, and I do > think she is a wonderful story teller. > > I am just wondering if anyone feels the same way that I do. Pat here: While I haven't started my second reading on HBP, I do understand what you are saying. I'm in no way disappointed by the book, but I understand. It seems to me that the previous books all adhered to a pattern of sorts. The Dursley's, The Train, Some first day broohaha, Christmas, tests, a big trial of somekind, back to the Dursley's... Now, that's not totally accurate across the board, but it's the basic idea. This book destroys that expected pattern. We start with the Prime Minister and then move on to Snape. A lot of the Hogwarts moments we've come to expect don't really happen. We are given much less of some characters (Ron, Hermione) but in exchange we get more insight into Dumbledore. Likewise, we get much more of Harry solving Harry's problem, after all, it is his story. I understand, but I'm holding judgement until I reread and until we get book 7...which will be something like Book 6: Part 2. We shall see! Pat From xxshoeboxxx at aol.com Thu Jul 21 04:12:40 2005 From: xxshoeboxxx at aol.com (xxshoeboxxx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:12:40 EDT Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: <25.63b67483.30107ab8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133740 After reading that section I did come upon this horrible feeling of dread. There is one thing that gives me hope though, she did not outright say Snape is evil. So I shall hang on that tiny glimmer of hope, as ridiculous as it seems. Either way if Snape is evil I'll still love that man, his intelligence, his wit, his power, and his courage are to be admired. Snapesdarksoul From prep0strus at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 04:17:21 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (Adam Corbett) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:17:21 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133741 Allie: > Where does she get this stuff??? We were saying it all day at work today (and I'm a veterinarian so it's even funnier!) Any other favorite lines? My vote for favorite line is "I'm tall," said Ron inconsequentially. while Hermione explains Harry's newfound appeal in 'Hermione's Helping Hand'. There's something funny, sad, and relatable about Ron's unalterable number 2 slot, and this line had me and my friend jenn (to whom i was reading the book outloud) cracking up - something about the timing, i think. Meanwhile - yay, veterinarians! I'm two years away... As a vet, doesn't it frustrate you that Care of Magical Creatures is such a maligned course??? I'd be all over it! I think Harry could've fit it in... couldn't hurt knowing that stuff as an Auror. My real complaint, though, with regards to this book and humor is.... no Lee Jordan!! I know he's not a major character, but he's my favorite, and he was in all five before! This time he barely gets a mention - less than Wood got in 4. He's the twins' best friend - surely he could pop up somewhere with all that personality and runaway mouth. Sigh. Maybe we'll see him again in 7. ~Prep0sterous From rebekahid at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 04:23:28 2005 From: rebekahid at comcast.net (Bekki) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:23:28 -0000 Subject: A Deeply Horrible Person (Was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133742 > Ladyljd: > > I don't know how much more explicit JKR can get than when she refers > to Snape as a "deeply horrible person". As someone else said > somewhere, Snape appears to be hated by his creator. I've seen this quote referred to a lot recently. However, it was interesting to me when I looked it up that it refers to J.K. Rowling's favorite character! Abel, Katy. "Harry Potter Author Works Her Magic," Family Education, Summer 1999: Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. Therefore I've come to think of "deeply horrible" as only applying to Snape's personality, at least as far as that quote goes. It seems like the sarcastic comments would be fun to write, not someone being truly evil. She doesn't say that enjoyed writing Tom Riddle. Bekki, who has been consoling herself with this quote in light of more recent interviews From sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 04:47:03 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:47:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133743 In a message dated 7/20/2005 3:35:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, ladyljd at yahoo.com writes: There is no doubt in my mind now of JKR's intentions for Snape. I've spent some time researching her interview statements over the past few days. I'm convinced of her thought processes now. In short, Severus Snape was never meant to be anyone's favorite character. And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant capacity to love. Here are the quotes on which I base these opinions: Q: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Hmm...but if Snape was truly two-dimensionally evil, why say Book 7? We've been given plenty of ammo in Book 6 if we wanted to argue that Snape is evil. Also, the Leaky Cauldron's interview (part 2): _http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html_ (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html) MA: ?whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on ? JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. Generally speaking, I shut down those lines of speculation that are plain unprofitable. Even with the shippers. God bless them, but they had a lot of fun with it. It's when people get really off the wall ? it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. ************** This comment could be taken a lot of ways, but obviously there is *something* more to this, seeing as she has ended speculation on Snape is a vampire (sorry Pippin) and Harry/Hermione on the same page (ducks copies of Hogwarts: A History). I can't give on Snape until seven people, I just can't. Amber, who is going to be sick if Horace Slughorn is the only good Slytherin to date P.S. On the same note, kudos to Betsy HP for correctly predicting that Nott would fade into the background and that Draco would show some moral fiber. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hautbois1 at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 04:48:10 2005 From: hautbois1 at comcast.net (ohnooboe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:48:10 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133744 Pat says... I read the same article (with similar bliss, I'm sure, but with a bit of added glee and just a few squeals of delight) and I see what you're saying. I am personally hoping for the "Snape's-not-evil-he-and-Dumbledore- planned-this-death-since-the-vow-was-made" to hold true, but after reading the article, I don't know. Though it seems that DD is seen as nearly infallible throughout the series and he would be the first to tell you that was hogwash (or balderdash or any other silly antediluvian word DD wishes to throw out...) I don't think that he was "gullible" when it came to Snape. Perhaps a bit too trusting, but I don't think DD's death came as a suprise to himself (if, in fact, he had time to be surprised). I think DD planned for every eventuality and that we may still find that his death will cause some mammoth wheel to be set in motion...a "wheel" of his own devising. So, even if Snape killing Dumbledore was a surprise, I don't think Snape will get the last word on DD's death. I think something has been set in motion by this (at DD's hand) and it'll be big...what it'll be...who knows... Pat "Why, Snape? WHY?!" From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 21 04:50:09 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:50:09 -0000 Subject: A Different Opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133745 Hi, I have finished reading the book four times and I like it better now. The first time I hated and most of all because I couldn't relate to any character they had grown up so much in so many different ways and I couldn't relate at all and secondly because, the style seemed completely un-Rowling like and so simlar to other fantasy writers. I have read it so many times now and each time I have found something in the book to reconcile to my usual Rowling vision and I like it now. Bye Adi From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 05:21:05 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:21:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohnooboe" wrote: > SNIP!!! > > > Doddiemoemoe wrote: > > > Snape could have made short work of the DE's remaining on the > tower > > ledge and went into hiding with Draco and Fam. and perhaps even > > extend DD's life a little longer. He didn't do it he chose to > kill > > DD.. > > Pat here! > > I find myself longing for Snape not to be the "evil one" he's shown > himself to be in HBP...anyway... Yes, doddie, Snape did have the > opportunity to not kill DD. However, I don't think the option of > fleeing into the night with Draco existed. Doddiemoemoe here: You are completely wrong.... If snape AK'd DD then he could do so throughout... Snape could have killed and most definitely destroyed/disabled all DE's there that night, BUT, Snape did not do it!!! And Snape never Killed Harry.........instead....Snape..oh just wait...no he killed no DE's either...and we are positive Harry is no DE...but we never saw any DE challenge Snape! Everyone believes he killed DD... for LV it means Ssnape could do what he could not......awww bless nothing about Bellatrix but her little cotton socks.. for everyone...DE's and OOP's and everyone in between...the focus has shifted...MOM doesn't matter...and Hogwarts doesn't matter... We are at the point that the war is entirely personal and based upon principal!!! (sad, yet true with most wars--aside from the star wars variety lol).. If Hogwarts doesn't matter and MOM doesn't matter and the PM's office doesn't matter..then we truly begin the war on morals, values, and emotions... Doddie --whatch out Voldiemoldy! From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 04:34:23 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:34:23 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Comments on the Dallas Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133747 Phoenixgod2000 wrote: Harry and Ginny share aboslutely no profound moments together, nothing that would indicate the sort of love that Harry was supposed to be feeling. No moments of passion, no moments of sharing or pain. for two people who are supposed to have a lot in common we saw very little of it. There is absolutely no chemistry or passion between them. What real forshadowing for their relationship occured? Do they belong together because it would be like lily and james returned? Is it because Harry saved her from the big bad monster? Those aren't reasons, those are the cliches that JKR should be turning on her head instead of embracing. Schumar1999: I respectfully must disagree here. I found clues to these feelings back in OotP when Ginny came into the library looking "particularly windswept". Harry, seeing Ginny as her own person and growing accustomed to her, falls for her subconsciously and, when he does realize what he's feeling, he tries to excuse and dismiss those feelings. I was actually quite satisfied when Harry finally woke up and took notice of the things he subconscious was feeling toward/about Ginny, and like Harry I wish they had more time. Hopefully they will. As for the clich? breakup.. I think Harry has a point. Who has died? His Parents who he doesn't remember, and the 2 people he has had in his life that were most like parents -- who are the most important people in your life when you're growing up -- Sirius and Dumbledore. Now that Harry's coming of age and doesn't necessarily need a parent to be the most important person in his life, he doesn't want to lose Ginny, who is now this Most Important Person. However, I don't want to sound like some silly shipper when I really hope that, even in perhaps physical absence, Ginny's love can be part of the Strength Harry needs. I'm very interested to see what interraction they have at Fleur and Bill's wedding. Schumar1999 From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 05:21:32 2005 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:21:32 -0000 Subject: Final showdown will be at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133748 It has to be IMO. Harry's not going back as a student but the Ministry are likely to keep the school open as part of their "lets not panic the masses" policy. I can't imagine a HP book without Hogwarts featuring somewhere - its been the heart and soul of the series. We know that Voldemort has a strong tie to Hogwarts. He wanted to come back as a teacher (for evil means only no doubt) and even Hagrid says in SS/PS that the only thing stopping Voldemort taking over the school was Dumbledore. I think in book 7 Voldemort will indeed hijack the school and Harry will meet him there for the final showdown. We know its going to happen but where else could it realistically be? Thoughts? From Janicem211 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 04:52:00 2005 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:52:00 -0000 Subject: Decent Slytherins In-Reply-To: <015E190D.6B55C273.02AAF381@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133749 It looks like JKR certainly is showing a different side to Slytherin through Slughorn. While he's ambitious and somewhat shallow, he certainly doesn't seem evil. Also, while Blaise Zabini seemed somewhat hostile to Harry and his friends, it didn't seem like he was necessarily in Malfoy's "Junior Death Eaters" gang. Let's also not forget that Crabbe and Goyle, as stupid as they are, are no longer in Draco's shadow so they could possibly be persuaded to join the good side (or at least not be Death Eaters themselves). Between all of this, maybe we can finally see a uniting of the houses! jemnilla28 From hautbois1 at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 05:28:46 2005 From: hautbois1 at comcast.net (ohnooboe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:28:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > > > Snape could have made short work of the DE's remaining on the > > tower > > > ledge and went into hiding with Draco and Fam. and perhaps even > > > extend DD's life a little longer. He didn't do it he chose to > > kill > > > DD.. > > > > Pat here! Yes, doddie, Snape did have the > > opportunity to not kill DD. However, I don't think the option of > > fleeing into the night with Draco existed. > Doddiemoemoe here: > > You are completely wrong.... > > If snape AK'd DD then he could do so throughout... > > Snape could have killed and most definitely destroyed/disabled all DE's > there that night, BUT, Snape did not do it!!! Pat...here... I...er...uh...am not sure what to say to...that... I was simply pointing out that Snape either had to let Draco kill DD or do it himself, otherwise Snape would have died. Fleeing with Draco wasn't an option. He would have died as he would have been neglecting the bounds of the UBV (unbreakable vow). I have no doubt that Snape has within him the ability to kill anyone he wants, I am only saying that fleeing with Draco was never an option. From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 05:28:10 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:28:10 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133751 pookasmorning wrote: > Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding > narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be > good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a > cookie. Milz replied: >>I think the readership has been playing with their own expectations. The best example is the Harry-Hermione shipper thing.<< HunterGreen: Though this wasn't your exact point, I think the Harry/Hermione shipping is a wonderful example of the traditional conventions. The main character should be the one to "get the girl", not the "sidekick". Milz continued: [snip] >>So I think they build their own expectations up and reinforce these expectations by constant rumination on their beliefs. When Rowling is unequivocal, they head for denial and make up even more theories why they are still right to cling to their hopes and desires. The Draco and Snape apologists have the same problem (see Rowling's idea on that subject---it's very true and I share her concern as well). I try not to read between the letters because I've learned that these books are best enjoyed when taken at face value.<< HunterGreen: I think so too. While she is tricky, she's not THAT tricky. Though I have been guilty of looking too hard for secret sub-plots (ahem, ESE! Fudge), its better taken with a grain of salt, knowing that the elaborate wild explainations are not likely to be true. It reminds me of all the theories that Snape wasn't really a spy for the death- eaters (and that he wasn't the one Voldemort referenced in the graveyard), or that the mauraders weren't in Gryffindor, or the James/Lupin switching spell (I won't mention the Vampire!Snape theory, because that one had a lot of seeming clues in the text). Sure, perhaps it is true that Snape and Dumbledore put together his death and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders and all that, but I just cannot see how that would play out in the text, especially with Dumbledore being dead. I would really like it if Snape went back to being a jerk who is fighting hard for the side of good, I liked him a lot better that way, but I have a sinking feeling that it isn't true. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From ShylahM at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 05:50:35 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:50:35 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Valky's confession; The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403e946f0507202250789a0c9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133752 Tanya Using a different email program here, so hope it works as in guidelines. Snippets below. >Alexa > > Either way, Dumbledore was dead. The only question, at that point, > was whether Snape was going to go down with him, and if Snape died, > his mission ? to help Harry overthrow Voldemort ? would die with him, > leaving Harry without the help of either Dumbledore or Snape. > Frankly, the person I was most emotionally distressed for in the last > 100 or so pages of the book was Snape. To be in the position of > killing the single person in the entire world who believes in you? > I'd be howling in pain like a wounded animal, too. Tanya I'm not sure what to think here. The separation seems final. No OOTP member will listen to Snape now. However, he was caught. It was a choice of 1 or probably 3 deaths - definately 2. Things might have been a bit different if he had got there before the other Death Eaters. But I agree, Snape wasn't exactly as happy as I imagine a Death Eater would be on killing Dumbledore. The brother and sister duo were panting excitedly over his death. Imagine how euphoric they would be if they'd sent the curse. Something they were about to do. I think that Dumbledore's first plan was to protect Draco, hence keeping his distance even though he knew what was going on. But between talking to Draco and the arrival of Snape, things went pearshaped. The argument between Snape and Dumbledore is another thing that sticks in my mind. Snape didn't want to do it anymore, but Dumbledore played the heavy. The question, is that he wanted to stop doing what? It must have been something between Snape and Dumbledore only. >Alexa > > JKR has made the comment, who would love Snape? And it's a comment > that's treated kind of flippantly sometimes, but it makes me > incredibly sad. Because if love is so terribly important, as > Dumbledore tells Harry and us that it is, then to have Snape cut off > from any possibility of that ... it's not funny, it's cruel. It's > doubly cruel when he's had to do it to himself. Tanya We also do not yet know what Snape's patronus is. He'd have to have one, having used it in OOTP to send messages. If he is as evil as this seems to paint him on the surface, why the mystery? From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 05:52:07 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:52:07 -0000 Subject: Whats going on at Spinners End Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133753 Wormtail says he was sent to assist Snape. But what are they up too? LV seems to have Snape doing something besides spy on DD. Also Hagrid mentions that during the argument between DD and Snape that DD says something about "Snape makin' investigations in his house". Hagrid adds in Slytherin. But I'm wondering if DD meant his actual house on Spinners end. What investigation could be going on there that DD would want to know about? Wormtail may be the spy this time for LV to see Snape is on his side. The introduction of Snape having a house and Wormtail being there makes me think Snape is up to something interesting there. Brent From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 21 05:50:13 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:50:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DF3795.7070906@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133754 Adam Corbett wrote: > Allie: > > > Where does she get this stuff??? We were saying it all day at work > today (and I'm a veterinarian so it's even funnier!) Any other > favorite lines? > > > > My vote for favorite line is > > "I'm tall," said Ron inconsequentially. Kathy writes: My favourite line of the book was Fudge."My dear Prime Minister, you can't honestly think I'm still Minister for Magic after all this? I was sacked three days ago! The whole wizarding community has been screaming for my resignation for a fortnight. I've never known them so united in my whole term of office!" That whole chapter was funny as sin. KJ From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 05:20:30 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:20:30 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133755 pookasmorning quoted the interview: MA: whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on ? JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. *** This is the "evidence" from JKR that Dumbledore definitely did not order Snape to kill him? This looks to me like JKR saying, "I don't want to give that away. It would ruin the 7th book." I don't see an answer one way or the other in her response. snipsnapsnurr From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 05:18:34 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:18:34 -0000 Subject: Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133756 Rachel, Some comments and clarifications concerning your post... and some thoughts of my own on these topics. Rachel: > We know Snape to be an incredibly accomplished legelimens, > but we do not know anything about anyone else in the order. Snape is an Occlumens not a Legilimens. He can block out anyone else trying to read his thoughts or memories. He explains the difference to Harry in OOP when they first beging Occlumens lessons- "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings (the victims feelings and memories) correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehood in his presence without detection". Seems to me that Snape is speaking from experience here! And while Legilimency and Occlumency are opposite sides of the same coin, as it were, Voldemort is better at the first and Snape is better at the second... and I suspect Dumbledore was adept at both. I think that part of Snape's technique in Occlumency is to project a prickly, angry, unpleasant exterior so that others do not want to even think about what's going on in his mind. While Dumbledore on the other hand, projects bland good will, cheerfulness, and sometimes a bit of dottiness... causing others to often underestimate him. I also think Snape is so adept that he can probably totally disassociate himself from any feeling or memory he does not want anyone else to know about... even more completely detach from them than leaving them behind in a Pensieve. Rachel: > The other option might be that there is a vow just for the > particular event "Should the need ever arise, I will kill you in > order to keep the Death Eaters believing that I am one of them." I suspect it's more like Dumbledore saying to Snape "When the time comes, I want you to perform the Avada Kadavra Curse on me so that no young person will have to split off a piece of their soul just to be rid of me". And my guess would be that Dumbledore and Snape have an Unbreakable Vow between them. The reason Snape's hand twitched when making the Vow with Narcissa is most likely, IMO, because he worried briefly that this 2nd vow would conflict with the first one. Although it is called the Unbreakable Vow, one can break it... if one is willing to die in order to do so. Rachel: > Ok, before I get into my next point, did DD ever say he did not > create a Horcruxe? I mean seriously, he said it was serious and > all that, but perhaps he created one? Could there be a piece of DD > in Fawkes, or in the sword? We saw him say the one relic from > Grifindore was safe... meybe he knew that becusae he himself had > used it? Can one item be a horcue for more than one person? I don't think Dumbledore said one way or the other that he had or had not created a horcrux for himself. But I seriously doubt he did. That magic is Black magic... evil. And Dumbledore is not afraid of death like Voldemort. To Dumbledore an intact loving soul is much more valuable and precious than even life itself. To create a horcrux according to what Slughorn tells Riddle in the memory he finally gives Harry... one has to commit a deliberate and purposeful act of murder in order to create a horcrux... one has to already be a long way down the Dark path (IMO) before one could even begin to consider doing this. It is the act of murder that splits the soul.. and one must also be prepared to put that piece that is split off into a vessel in order to create a horcrux... so this probably could not be done accidentally... it has to be with malice of forethought ... in the US that is the definition of Murder One.. premeditated, deliberate, and with no remorse. Can you honestly see Dumbledore doing something like that? I certainly can not! Rachel: > I was just flipping through, and I notice that in Hogsmead, wheere > DD is near death, it is Snape that he wants. Perhaps he wants more > than just a "potions/dada master", what if Snape is (or has) dd's > horcruxe? Maybe being reunited with it would have given dd extra > stregth or a piece of information he was missing. Or even, what if > it was the opposite! What if DD has a piece of snapes soul? We > never did find out how a horcruxe is reunited with the rest of its > soul or destroyed. Perhaps one needs to destroy the vessle in > which it is contained. It might also be how DD knows he can trust > Snape, but that area needs more thought. I think Dumbledore wanted Snape for his skill in both Potions and Dark Arts... and because of what ever plan they have between them. Since he did not yet know that the DEs had invade Hogwarts, I think he wanted Snape's skill to get an antidote to what ever was in that basin. As he told Harry that was not a health drink. And the drinking of it had left him weak, ... may have drained or diluted his wizarding powers in some way. After all it was Harry who Apparated them both back from the cavern... quite a feat for an unlicensed teenager! Side-Along Apparation is apparently much harder to do that solo apparation. Rachel: > Also a question. We know that a horcruxe can be an object or a > person right? So why must a person kill to create one? Is it > possible that DD knows that he has not used various objects (ie, > GG sword, or the sorting hat [which for some reaon I believe > belonged to one of the founders, but I can not lay my hands on a > quote at this moment]) because he has already used it? Do we > think that Harry might be one of them? We know he transfered his > powers, why not his soul? Again Dumbledore would not have used any relic to create a horcrux for himself! See my comments above... And I don't think he said that a horcrux could be a person... he said it might be possible for the snake to be one... Plus Dumbledore would know if V had used a frequently seen/used object at Hogwarts for doing such Dark magic.. he can sense the present of magic through his touch, sight, hearing and possibly smell for all we know. He could sense at the entrence of the cavern where the entrance was ... and what the "toll" was to get through it! Rachel: > However, did it strike anyone else as odd that JKR took the time > to point out to us that Poppy was wearing a knee length black veil > (in my mind of the sort usually reserved for widdows)? it probably > means nothing, but I thought I would see what other people think. It was not Poppy wearing the long veil it was Madame Pince the librarian... who it seems is close to Filch.. "... and when they reached the entrance hall, they found Madam Pince standing beside Filch, she in a thick black veil that fell to her knees, he in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs" Deb From tifflblack at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 05:58:12 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:58:12 -0700 Subject: Final showdown will be at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133757 lily_paige_delaney: I think in book 7 Voldemort will indeed hijack the school and Harry will meet him there for the final showdown. We know its going to happen but where else could it realistically be? Thoughts? Tiffany: I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought that, in which case Harry's better get there first and collect Griffindor's sword, just in case. But then, how many parents would send their children to Hogwarts with Voldemort in charge? Seems like an awfully big castle for just death Eater kids and sympathizers. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 06:46:46 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:46:46 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Comments on the Dallas Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Schumar1999" wrote: > Phoenixgod2000 wrote: > > Harry and Ginny share aboslutely no profound moments together, > nothing that would indicate the sort of love that Harry was supposed to be feeling. ,,,big snip,,,,, You cannot make that statement after COS....IMO If I'm wrong, please, let me know Doddie From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 06:46:20 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:46:20 EDT Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: <140.485d7619.30109ebc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133759 pookasmorning wrote: I was blissfully reading the JRK interview that was posted on Mugglenet/The Leaky Cauldron, and came to a bit that has given me serious pause. *** ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope. [snip] MA: ?whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on ? JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. *** I was completely convinced that Snape was a triple agent and that Dumbledore was pleading with him to go through with the murder. 100% sure. Now, however, I don't know what to think. That doesn't sound to me like JKR sparing our sensibilities; it sounds like the same sort of bet-hedging she did when asked about Harry/Hermione (and the same interview shows how that one turned out). So is that it? Snape wasn't faking it? Was this whole book just hitting us over the head with "Dumbledore is totally gullible, OMG"? Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a cookie. pookasmorning Julie says: Look at it this way. Is JKR going to respond any differently if Dumbledore *was* planning to die? It's not like she'd say, "Oops, now you've figured it out. Guess I don't have to write book seven after all." Pretty much she's going to pause, hem and haw, say "Do you think so?" and generally give out no information whatsoever when it comes to the clearly ambiguous plot points. In fact by saying things like "there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down," she could be deliberately misdirecting fans to think that a correct line of thought is mere speculation. She's not about to spoil the crowning book of her series, after all! BTW, while JKR hedged on Harry/Hermoine, she also hedged on Ron/Hermoine, or the ship uncertainty would have ended long ago. Same with good vs bad Snape. She's going to hedge her brains out on that one until book seven is published! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 06:05:36 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:05:36 -0000 Subject: DD is dead, but is Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gail" wrote: > It is interesting to note that DD appeared after death in a portrait > in his office, sleeping during H's visit to P.McG, (not ready/able to > talk /animate ,yet?) However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in > a talking portrait. Perhaps he is not dead, having passed the curtain > while still alive? I note the difference between portraits and > animated photos (imho): the photos are looped past history, like short > movie clips, while the 'painted' portrait captures the continuing soul > of the departed; portraits can initiate conversation and act in the > present. gw73 I think the difference is that Dumbledore died a physical death.. either from the AK, the liquid in the basin, or the long fall off the totower... his body died and then his spirit went beyong the veil (a metaphor for dying). Sirius on the other hand died BECAUSE his body slid beyond the veil... he was not dead when he slid through that curtain In OOP- "It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwaad through the ragged veil hanging from the arch.... "And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil which fluttered for a moment as thought in a high wind and then fell back into place" So IMO Sirius is actually more dead.. more gone from the mundane reality because he is totally... body and spirit... beyond the veil. Plus he was still relatively young and not of an age where the coming of death is anticipated and planned for. Dumbledore, on the other hand, is old, has been thinking and planning for his death for quite awhile, was aware that his death was imminent, and may have had time to leave a spirit essence behind. Or it is written into the employment contract for Heads of Hogwarts that at death they join the ranks of previous Heads and are honor bound (as one of the other Heads tells Phineas Nigellus when he balks at aiding Dumbledore) to give assistance and counsel to the current Head of the school. So signing such a contract may seal a spell that creates the portrait and the animating presence at the time of death. Deb From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 06:50:15 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:50:15 -0000 Subject: ESE!Lupin? (was: Re: Snape is Innocent!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133761 > Pippin: > I was trying to say that ESE!Lupin can't be proven until Book Seven, > but I am 99% confident that it will be. If there isn't unmistakable > canon that Lupin has been involved with Voldemort by then, I > agree, there never will be, and the theory will stand disproved. Jen: Oh, that makes sense. Misunderstood that point. > Pippin: > But Fenrir is just what we'd expect an evil werewolf to be like, and > Jo's villains are seldom so obvious. Anyway, does Fenrir strike you > as someone who was tempted into serving Voldemort by the promise > of rights and freedom? We haven't seen anyone who joined Voldemort > for that reason, yet Lupin and Dumbledore both say it's a danger. Jen: Fenrir strikes me as the perfect recruit to the Death Eaters, werewolf or no. No moral compass about causing harm and damage to others, willingness to continue upping the ante (i.e. starting to attack even when no full moon). I definitely think we have several groups who are interested in Voldemort's cause in the hopes they will gain more rights and freedoms: goblins, giants and werewolves come to mind most readily. DD tells Fudge in GOF he must extend a hand to the giants before Voldemort offers them certain rights and freedoms denied by wizarding society. Bill indicates in OOTP that the goblins are certainly considering who would offer them the better deal and are uncertain whether the Order is the way to go. And in HBP, of course, we find out most of the werewolves are joining Voldemort's side. So the danger DD and Lupin hint at is already very real. We may have not seen a specific DE who took this path, but we know the path exists in canon. Jen before: > And most of the other werewolves Remus is living amongst have also > chosen Voldemort's side over the WW! He calls him 'his equals' but > then 'sounded a little bitter'--this isn't work he enjoys or > perhaps even feels is productive. He understands why a person > living on the 'margins of society' might choose to side with > Voldemort, even if he himself hasn't made that choice. He knows it > will be very hard to persuade them otherwise. > Pippin: > I think it's a dangerous assumption that most of the werewolves are > on Voldemort's side because they're like Fenrir. They could be on > his side because they're like Lupin -- I mean, all they want is a > chance to live normal lives and it's just what the WW won't give > them. Jen: I've re-read my words and don't understand where I indicated an assumption all werewolves are like Fenrir. It's canon that the werewolves Lupin is living among are choosing Voldemort's side over the Order's. I'm sure their reasons are as many and varied as the number of members in the group. It's also canon Lupin does not feel he's making headway in converting werewolves to the Order's side becuase "it has been difficult gaining their trust." (chap. 16, p. 334). My only point was that Lupin understands *why* many of his fellow werewolves are choosing to live on the margins of society and join Voldemort. He is their equal, but has also lived a very different life from most of the other werewolves. He *has* tasted freedom in other words. And I don't think it's coincidence that Lupin allowed himself to love Tonks after Dumbledore died. Ascribe all the sinister meaning you want to it, in my mind Lupin was doing penance to Dumbledore for his wrongs by completely immersing himself in his work for the Order. All 'yes, buts' to Tonks aside, I really believe he was only able to open himself up to the happiness of love after he repaid Dumbledore the best he could. > I guess it's a compliment to Jo's talent that she can lay down so > much evidence in plain sight and persuade people to ignore it all. > > Pippin > amused I guess ;). Jen From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Thu Jul 21 06:53:47 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:53:47 -0000 Subject: Snape and Reading Between the Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133762 "desastreuse" wrote: > I suspect that there is great > personal affection between the two and that Dumbledore knows what a > horrific ordeal this is for Snape. The quiet speaking of Severus's > name is an acknowledgement. HogwartsMom says: Snape could only ever totally relax and be honest with DD and when he is completely alone. Now, only when alone. If he feels affection for anyone, it must be DD. HogwartsMom From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:06:46 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:06:46 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pdoshi72" > wrote: > > > > > What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? She would get > > Harry back to > > Hogwarts, Ron and Hermione could continue their N.E.W.T. studies, > > Harry would probably > > still have time to search for the Horcruxes, with the help of Ron > and > > Hermione, and he > > could even still have contact with Ginny. > > > > Also, since Harry would probably only be doing > > it that year, it would > > continue the 1 year jinx that is on the DADA position. > > PDoshi, > > I thought of this too. I think offerring Harry a teaching position > would be an excellent way to get the otherwise disinclined Harry > back to Hogwarts. He wants his friends to be protected, he wants to > learn more himself, maybe he could even continue to take a few > classes. Obviously since he's only going to be 17, he won't be > fully qualified, but JKR could get around that. Maybe he could take > a crash course in advanced DADA with Moody/McGonagall etc. over the > summer. > > > Allie I had great hopes that Harry would be the DADA teacher...but doesn't JKR in one of her interviews state that Harry will not be a teacher? I could be wrong.... she says someone will, and Neville of course jumps to mind... Susan McGee, northern California From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 07:11:27 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:11:27 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > pookasmorning wrote: > > Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding > > narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be > > good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a > > cookie. > > Milz replied: > >>I think the readership has been playing with their own expectations. > The best example is the Harry-Hermione shipper thing.<< > > HunterGreen: > Though this wasn't your exact point, I think the Harry/Hermione > shipping is a wonderful example of the traditional conventions. The > main character should be the one to "get the girl", not > the "sidekick". Richard: I still wouldn't count the H/Hr ship as fully sunk. JKR is consistently surprising. As I've said elsewhere, I think the only two logical ships for Harry were H/Hr and H/G. These are the only two relationships thus far where the four classical requirements for love (knowledge, concern, respect and pro-active responsibility) can be demonstrated. We also have no guarantee that ANY of the main characters will be alive at the end of the tale. There is some canonical support for Ron not surviving. Who's to say that Ginny must survive? Only JKR really knows at this point. It is also possible (though I think unlikely) that JKR could leave Harry bereft REGARDLESS of who survives, or that there might be some other match that she would introduce in the course of book 7, OR EVEN that The Good Ship Harry/? will be built, christened, launched and sail off into the radiant sunset in the "after the dust settled" chapter JKR has repeatedly discussed. Part of what I've enjoyed about this series is that JKR usually gets things pretty dead on, and still manages to surprise us. (I fear that there will be a serious flaw in a R/H ship, if these two do not change significantly 'ere this ship (probably) sails (I think many under-rate the importance of respect in love), but war, and particularly combat, are among the generally accepted and quite limited things that can significantly change personality.) Thus, part of what I have tried to do in a prior post is get people to keep an open mind and let the story JKR is telling play out as she chooses. Once the tale is done, then the WHOLE story can be picked over like a carcass on the Serengeti (sp?). Until we have only clues for speculation, but cannot count on such speculation yielding "truth." > Milz continued: > [snip] >>So I think they build their own expectations up and > reinforce these expectations by constant rumination on their beliefs. > When Rowling is unequivocal, they head for denial and make up even > more theories why they are still right to cling to their hopes and > desires. The Draco and Snape apologists have the same problem (see > Rowling's idea on that subject---it's very true and I share her > concern as well). > > I try not to read between the letters because I've learned that these > books are best enjoyed when taken at face value.<< > > HunterGreen: > I think so too. While she is tricky, she's not THAT tricky. Though I > have been guilty of looking too hard for secret sub-plots (ahem, ESE! > Fudge), its better taken with a grain of salt, knowing that the > elaborate wild explainations are not likely to be true. It reminds me > of all the theories that Snape wasn't really a spy for the death- > eaters (and that he wasn't the one Voldemort referenced in the > graveyard), or that the mauraders weren't in Gryffindor, or the > James/Lupin switching spell (I won't mention the Vampire!Snape > theory, because that one had a lot of seeming clues in the text). > > Sure, perhaps it is true that Snape and Dumbledore put together his > death and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders and all that, but I > just cannot see how that would play out in the text, especially with > Dumbledore being dead. I would really like it if Snape went back to > being a jerk who is fighting hard for the side of good, I liked him a > lot better that way, but I have a sinking feeling that it isn't true. > I think the ESE!Snape debate is still wonderfully open. Personally I think he is ESE, but the fact is that we won't know until the end. We may find (perhaps through DD's portrait) that the reason DD trusted Snape was that he knew Snape would not betray DD in any way that could be traced back to Snape, so long as DD lived, precisely so as to maintain his position as a spy for LV, AND that the fly in that ointment was Narcissa's visit to Snape and the resulting unbreakable vow ... which DD did not know about. DD's first realization of disaster impending would thus be Snapes appearance at Draco's side when he knows that Draco is there to kill him. From momy424 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 06:57:36 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:57:36 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133766 Allie: > I thought of this too. I think offerring Harry a teaching position > would be an excellent way to get the otherwise disinclined Harry > back to Hogwarts. He wants his friends to be protected, he wants to > learn more himself, maybe he could even continue to take a few > classes. Obviously since he's only going to be 17, he won't be > fully qualified, but JKR could get around that. Maybe he could take > a crash course in advanced DADA with Moody/McGonagall etc. over the > summer. Momy424 here: Just my opinion, but I really cannot see this happening, based on a few things. If DD has just been killed at the school where he has put such terrific charms and protections and he was regarded as one of the most powerful wizards in the world, yet the DE got in and killed him, why would parents feel any safer if HP is at the school teaching their children, knowing he is like #1 on Voldy's list to kill? I mean as a parent, would you send your kid to a school no longer safe, where the principal was murdered by a teacher after a student let the bad guys in and the most wanted person was now your kids new teacher? I think not. Also, Harry would never be lured back to take a cursed position (he knows of the curse on it from DD) and one that would interfere with him "fulfilling is destiny" as he knows he must do Finally, I can't imagine him wanting to bring others into danger as I am sure he would feel he would do if he were to take such a position before Voldemort is destroyed. I think he will return to Hogwarts, but probably not as a full time student, but I can't imagine the school not playing some part in book 7 (which based on how many questions I have after reading will have to be like 1,000 pages to satisfy me!!) Also, I am pretty sure it has been revealed that Dumbledore taught Divinations when he was a professor and not DADA. From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:09:46 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:09:46 -0000 Subject: What use is Snape in the rest of the plot? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133767 "Ciji" wrote: > > I also agree with whomever said that there is no way Snape can survive > book 7. He's pledged alliegance to 2 sides-- Voldemort and > Dumbledore, and breaking a promise always has consequnces. And how do > we know Snape didn't make some type of vow to Dumbledore, something > along the lines of "in the event of your death, I , Severus Snape, > promise to..." No doubt Snape will play a MAJOR role in book 7. I > hope Harry kills him... with pain. > I wonder if Snape is a Horcrux, admitted it to DD (who would know how to verify it), and THAT is why DD trusted Snape so much. So, in HP7, Harry faces LV after finding 3 of the 4 remaining HXs while Snape lurks. Does Snape take an AK to the chest to save Harry, leaving Harry to finish off LV? Of course, Bellatrix might be a safer HX since she does less original thinking--follows blindly--than Snape. HogwartsMom From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Thu Jul 21 06:55:19 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:55:19 +0200 Subject: Harry the last Horcrux References: <1121899693.3848.33607.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002e01c58dc3$313da5b0$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 133768 According to my understanding of the Horcrux process: First you have to commit murder in order to split your soul. Then there is a spell to be done in order to place the piece of soul into an object. Although Voldemort had just committed murder (James) he was in the process of another killing AK spell (green light) which rebounded off Harry. What was left of him was too weak to start casting spells (all he could do was take over the bodies of the lower forms of life - GOF) Lily's sacrifice was born of love and left something in Harry's blood that cannot be seen which protects him from Voldemort.(PS) Surely the love would not have tolerated something in Harry as evil as a bit of Voldemort's soul (after all - Quirrell could not bear to touch him after he was possessed by Voldemort. H.M.S From sro35 at webtv.net Thu Jul 21 07:18:42 2005 From: sro35 at webtv.net (sro35 at webtv.net) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:18:42 -0400 Subject: HBP---WOW!!!! In-Reply-To: HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com's message of 21 Jul 2005 05:21:15 -0000 Message-ID: <16592-42DF4C52-1616@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133769 I just finished listening to HBP and all that I can say is that I am sitting here, with eyes aglaze and mouth hanging open. The section in the cave is absolutely brilliant. I have a question: are the initials RAD or RAB? Finally, here is my opinion on the ending: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I do not believe for an instant that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape. None of us really knows why Dumbledore trusted Snape, but trust him he did. If that trust was good enough for Dumbledore, it is still good enough for me. When Dumbledore insisted that Harry go and get Snape, and only Snape, he was putting a plan into action that had already been decided. It was Snape's job to kill Dumbledore if the cave killed him, which it did. After all, Dumbledore knew what he could be facing when his hand was injured so horribly and he could not fix it. When Dumbledore said, "Please," to Snape, he knew that he was dying and wanted Snape to finish the job. Why? The obvious answer is twofold, to keep Draco from becoming a killer and to make Snape the ultimate spy. The real reason? I don't know. I guess that I will find out in book 7........Stan From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 07:41:03 2005 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:41:03 -0000 Subject: Ginny, Snape and assorted desiderata ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > > > So, starting with Ginny and Harry, I have no problem with this > > relationship at all. I'd long thought that the only two girls who > > made sense as interests for Harry were Hermione and Ginny, and despite > > assertions from several that they did not see this coming, or that it > > was to peremptorily presented, I think the basis for it lies > > definitely as far back as CoS, and even SS/PS. > > > > I used to be a very active member of this Group a few years ago, and I > clearly remember many discussions about Hermione's romantic feelings > for Harry and her non-romantic feelings for Ron. IMO, these people > tended to be the ones who identified with Hermione and wanted her to > be with Harry because they preferred Harry (the hero, the celebrity of > the series) over Ron (the sidekick). And for these people, any pairing > contrary to what they want will be unsuitable. That's why I don't > bother with the "shippers"---they're too narrow-minded, which makes > them overlook many of the blatantly obvious clues Rowling has been > dropping in the previous books. Richard: I think this is a pretty much anticipatible problem in such a long serious that gets spread over so many real-world years. People are left to speculate, and with so much material, personal views, desires, and such will tend to out-weigh the story as it is being told. Still, I wouldn't count the H/Hr ship as resting eternally at the bottom of the Sea of Love, either. What might happen if Ron and Ginny are both dead at the end of the tale is quite open to speculation, and, as I've said, there are logical reasons for thinking that the only two viable ships for Harry thus far are H/Hr and H/G. (Keep repeating, "Knowledge, concern, respect and responsibility!") When the basic requirements for love are fulfilled, the question ceases to be, "Why would he/she/they?" and becomes, "Why not?" > > > > As for Snape, I think his loving Lily is still on the table as a real > > possibility. Why? Slughorn has said repeatedly that Lily was very > > gifted at potions. This opens at several possible arguments on the > > point, and her are a few of them. > > > > First, since we "know" that Snape was very gifted in this field, it > > might be the case that he helped Lily, and that the dislike of her > > that he also been stated in canon came later due to her rejection of > > him in favor of James. In this line, it could be argued that her > > disapproval of James' treatment of Snape in the pensieve scene was in > > part a certain loyalty to someone who had helped her, and not merely > > her sense of fairness. > > > > In OoP US hardcover page 649 Chapter: Snape's Worst Memory: > > "there you go, " he {James] said, as Snape struggled to his feet > again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus-" > > "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" > > I don't get the feeling that Snape had the hots for Lily with that > remark.... > > BUT this does give an interesting look into Snape's psyche: he's a > half Muggle, yet he holds a Muggle born in contempt. So Snape is > projecting his perceived undesirable qualities onto Lily (and other > Muggle borns). Richard: I see more than a little self-loathing in Snape, even though he is also a very proud person. (OK, "egotist" may be a better term.) And I don't think you can discount any possible attraction until we have JKR's final word precisely because if Lily WAS that good at potions she might STILL have Snape's respect, even as he is/was deeply ambivalent about it. Further, a comment made at a point where he might well be recognizing Lily's drift towards James, with the resulting resentment that would certainly attend in a person like Snape, shouldn't be seen as definitive with regard to all relations between the two for all time. Note that I offered three different scenarios with regard to the POSSIBILITY of Snape's loving Lily, and that I pointed out that there are many variations on the theme possible. I think this is simply a point at which we should all maintain a certain logical suspension, and wait for JKR to finish her tale. I have no doubt that there are surprises in store, and this might still be one of them. > I don't buy that Snape co-wrote the notes in the Potions book nor that > he had help from anyone in his year. That detracts from Snape's > abilities as a potions master. Richard: I don't expect you to "buy" anything. Just keep in mind as you read that there are lots of things yet to be revealed, and some surprise on this line shouldn't be unbelievably shocking. I'm sure that the notes regarding potions in the text were ENTIRELY in Snape's hand, but not sure that they were entirely from Snape's mind. We shall see (or not) as JKR completes her tale. In the mean time, just consider the possibility that at least some of the ideas might have come from Lily, who Snape might well have regarded as gifted enough in potions to be tolerable ... until she fell for James. > > I don't see the complaints about Tonks and Remus at all. I think what > > we are seeing is simply that the Potterverse is broader than canon. > > People continue to live lives, fall in love, fight, etc., outside of > > canon, and it is not necessary for canon to incorporate all of this > > into canon. To me, this demonstrates a rather richer imagination on > > the part of JKR than many an author, and is to her credit, especially > > as she is often able to use "off canon" to build plot that is > > subsequently canonized. > > > I also think it would have detracted from the Harry plot if Rowling > delved into the Tonks Remus relationship more. Let's face it, Harry is > in school. He has limited contact with Tonks and Remus during the > school year---why would we need to cut away to a dinner date with > Tonks and Remus? This is Harry Potter not "The O.C." Richard: Never having watched "The O.C.," I'm not sure what you are talking about. I only know enough about it to know that I would probably become physically ill if forced to watch it. From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:47:12 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:47:12 -0000 Subject: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133771 I have been desperately clinging to the theory/idea that Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders to kill him, and is in fact, not in thrawl to Lord Voldemort. My theory was shaken after I read part II of the interview with JRK on mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. Why am I so upset and depressed by the idea that Snape had been the minion of the Dark Lord all along? First, because I love and trust Albus Dumbledore (yes, we HP fanatics are over the edge talking this way about a fictional character). Although, I believe/believed him to be fallible, I have/had great trust in his wisdom and knowledge. Plus, I must share his "fatal flaw" of believing in people, giving them second chances...After all, what would have happened to Rubeus Hagrid had Dumbledore not believed in him and given him a second chance? I hate the idea that Dumbledore failed and died because he trusted someone, and believed him to have changed. I wanted to believe in Snape's redemption, because I believe that every human being can make the choice to turn from evil to good. But now I wonder... We all know about JKR's devotion and dedication to children -- she loves them all, as indicated by her readings to children, her charitable contributions to children, her disclosing of the book title to a particularly adorable boy.... So, Snape's treatment of children may indicate his real character. I respectfully differ from the person who said that Snape had just engaged in "verbal abuse".....which was different than physical abuse. Verbal abuse, humiliation and degradation are the things that hurt children terribly. It's not just Harry that Snape mistreats. Snape scapegoats Harry from the get-go because Snape hates Harry's father. He gives him no chance - - he targets him from the first lesson and never lets up. He tries to get him expelled. He threatens him with the illegal use of Veritaserum. He uses the Occlumency lessons to attack Harry. He is beastly towards Neville (I think you should know that this class contains Neville Longbottom)...and I don't think we can forget the scene when Draco has cursed Hermione and she has grown long fangs.."I see no difference" says Snape. I believe that this kind of behavior towards children is disgusting and unpardonable -- but never mind what I think -- I believe JKR believes that, too.. Which makes me feel that in fact Snape is a Death Eater who has always been loyal to Lord Voldemort. I don't want to believe it..it makes me really sad..but... Susan McGee Northern California From missbluepie at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 07:19:28 2005 From: missbluepie at yahoo.com.au (sally sheehy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:19:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721071928.30525.qmail@web33214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133772 vmonte: > I believe (DUH) that the last horcrux is inside Harry---the scar. > I'm thinking that Lily's spell must of somehow ripped out the piece > of soul that was living in Voldemort and transfered it to Harry. And > maybe it was the merging of these two souls that caused the > explosion at GH. Interesting...perhaps in a last ditch effort to save baby Harry, Lily used Harry as her own horcrux to enact some powerful charm (as she was ever so proficient in charms) to deflect Voldemort attact. In doing this, in storing part of her soul in Harry, Harry now has his mothers eyes. sally sheehy Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! From smartone56441070 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:56:42 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:56:42 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: <004001c58d04$074e1330$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133773 TrekkieGrrrl wrote: Isn't spells usually something you have to practice in? Yet Harry > got the Sectusempra to work at first attempt, and he's not usually that good > in Charms, is he? Smart: Yeah, I wondered about that too. But it's a Dark Arts spell, which don't seem to rely that much on skill, like charms, but more on feeling. Harry was having trouble using effective Unforgiveable Curses (OotP), but Sectum wasn't likely to be as powerful or as menacing. If Harry did recieve some of Voldemort's power, like Parseltounge, for whatever reason, he may have an affinity for them already. From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:57:40 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:57:40 -0000 Subject: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione/Quidditch comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L." wrote: > Iris: > > As for Ginny, and her brisk reaction towards Hermione, couldn't we > > understand that actually, she sees Hermione as a menace? Hermione is > > Harry's friend, since the beginning. She is brilliant, Harry trusts > > her, she's always there to help him. Moreover, Hermione is an > > attractive girl. Ginny isn't blind and sees how Ron behaves. She > > also knows what happened in GoF: Hermione, without making an effort, > > had managed to seduce Krum, a Quidditch star player. Huh? Hermione managed to seduce Krum? In fact, Krum was tremendously attracted to Hermione, sought her out and indicated his interst in her... how is this Hermione's "seduction" of Krum... Susan From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 21 08:04:53 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:04:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Astute Mouth-Organ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DF5725.8060305@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133775 Jenserai Bariman wrote: > ADi says, "Hi, I haven't understood Harry's and Dumbledore's exchange > about mouth-organ > which DD even calls astute? WHat's a mouth organ got to do with > destruction of the ring? > Bye" > > I say, "I don't understand it either. A mouth-organ is among the things > Riddle stole from the > other kids at the orphanage, but I haven't the faintest idea what it has > to do with the ring. > Unless it's a really, really sloppy bit of fore-shadowing or something. > Perhaps it's part of a > sub plot that got edited out? I thought I caught some of those, but > maybe I'm just being very > dim." > > -Jens > Kathy writes: Dumbledore just meant that it was only ever a mouth organ whereas the ring was really a horcrux. To Dumbledore that explained why the ring was gone and the mouth organ was still there. KJ From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jul 21 08:24:07 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:24:07 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133776 Lord Voldemort does not act in the Half-Blood Prince, but we see quite a bit of him in the Pensieve...and learn a lot about him. Let us contrast Harry Potter when he is told by Hagrid that he is a wizard. Harry has defended himself by magic, but has never done anything nasty or mean spirited. He doesn't know that he has magical abilities. He is innocent. In contrast, when we first meet Tom at the orphanage, he has already chosen to do evil with his powers. He has hung Billy Stubb's rabbit from the rafters. Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were never quite right after Tom had taken them into the cave. Tom has stolen items from the other children in the orphanage. Then, Tom kills and steals from the Hepzibah, the rich old witch who has a cup of Helga Hufflepuff's and the gold locket from Slytherin. He finds his uncle, frames him for the murder of his father and grandparents, and steals his ring. Then, we see a major confrontation between Professor Dumbledore, new headmaster at Hogwarts, and Tom Riddle, who would prefer to be addressed as Lord Voldemort. "They do not call me 'Tom' any more" he said. "These days I am known as---" "I know what you are known as,"...said Dumbledore, smiling pleasantly "But to me, I'm afraid, you will always be Tom Riddle..." Dumbledore refuses to acknowledge or respect Tom/LV's remaking and renaming of himself. Dumbledore tells Tom/LV that he would be sorry to believe half of thing things that Tom/LV has done since he has left Hogwarts. Tom/LV says "Will you let me return? Will ou let me share my knowledge with your students? I place myself and my talents at your disposal. I am yours to command." Of course Tom/LV is really presenting Professor Dumbledore with an ultimatum...let me come back to Hogwarts or else.... Dumbledore refuses his ultimatum, and this is the declaration of war..alea iacta est.... So we see the beginnings of the war between Albus Dumbledore and Tom Riddle, who styles himself as Lord Voldemort..... We also find out that it is Tom who has somehow cursed the DADA position (the one that he wanted) at Hogwarts..... Dumbledore says "...we have never been able to keep a DADA teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." A lot to digest... Susan McGee Northern California From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 08:55:09 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:55:09 -0000 Subject: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133777 Susan McGee wrote: >>We all know about JKR's devotion and dedication to children -- she loves them all, as indicated by her readings to children, her charitable contributions to children, her disclosing of the book title to a particularly adorable boy.... So, Snape's treatment of children may indicate his real character. [snip examples of Snape treating children badly] I believe that this kind of behavior towards children is disgusting and unpardonable -- but never mind what I think -- I believe JKR believes that, too..<< HunterGreen: But, on the other hand, the fact that she made Snape exemplify traits that she finds horrible makes the fact that he's working toward good even more startling and interesting. You expect someone like Lily Potter who died for her son, or James Potter who would have shown Peter mercy to be working on the side of good. But the man who's personality is completely horrible and cruel, and who delights in being sadistic, that's the person who you wouldn't expect to be working *with* Dumbledore. Snape doesn't have a heart of gold, who ever he's working for, he's doing it for his own reasons, but he's still a nasty person. The fact that he's so obviously evil is what makes it so hard to accept that he actually is. He's much more interesting as a "good-but- doesn't-act-it" character. As a bad guy, he's almost a stereotype, he dresses in dark clothes, he's a loner, he's cruel, he despises the main character of the books, he's the head of the Slytherin "evil" house (not that I agree that with that generalization), and he used to be Death Eater. As a reformed wizard, working against Voldemort at extreme risk, he's just more interesting, but as a bad guy, well, he's *obvious*. [Personally though, I don't think it matters either way now what his personality is like. I feel we lost a good character, but (to me at least) there's no getting past him killing Voldemort. I wish there was some way out of it.] -Rebecca/HunterGreen From trekkie at stofanet.dk Thu Jul 21 09:01:33 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:01:33 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Snape invent his curses? References: Message-ID: <005301c58dd2$caebd970$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133778 ----- Original Message ----- From: "smartone564" To: Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:56 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Snape invent his curses? > TrekkieGrrrl wrote: > Isn't spells usually something you have to practice in? Yet Harry >> got the Sectusempra to work at first attempt, and he's not usually > that good >> in Charms, is he? > > Smart: Yeah, I wondered about that too. But it's a Dark Arts spell, > which don't seem to rely that much on skill, like charms, but more on > feeling. Harry was having trouble using effective Unforgiveable Curses > (OotP), but Sectum wasn't likely to be as powerful or as menacing. If > Harry did recieve some of Voldemort's power, like Parseltounge, for > whatever reason, he may have an affinity for them already. Yes, if it IS a Dark Arts spell. I mean... what makes a spell "Dark"? Is in only the purpose of hurting that makes a spell dark? I'm sure there are a lot of "grey" spells in that case. A spell like the Incendio could be used to set people on fire as well as anything else. Yet it's not considered Dark (Arthur uses it) We still have Flitwicks words about Swish and Flick - " Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important too " to signify that BOTH the pronounciation AND the wand movements matters. Also again the pronounciation. I mean, something like Vingardium Leviosa is fairly straightforward to pronounce, yet it still takes a lot of practice apparently. Yes the kids have had 5 years by now to practice but still, I would think a spell like Sectumsempra would need at least SOME practice. (oh and I know we've got both wordless and wandless magic on top of that, just to muddle the facts *L*) ~Trekkie From jenserai at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 09:11:53 2005 From: jenserai at hotmail.com (Jenserai Bariman) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:11:53 -0000 Subject: The Astute Mouth-Organ In-Reply-To: <42DF5725.8060305@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133779 ADi said, "Hi, I haven't understood Harry's and Dumbledore's exchange about mouth-organ which DD even calls astute? WHat's a mouth organ got to do with destruction of the ring?" I (Jens) said, "I don't understand it either. A mouth-organ is among the things Riddle stole from the other kids at the orphanage, but I haven't the faintest idea what it has to do with the ring." Kathy says, "Dumbledore just meant that it was only ever a mouth organ whereas the ring was really a horcrux. To Dumbledore that explained why the ring was gone and the mouth organ was still there." I (Jens) reply, "Except the mouth organ was never there. The only mention of it prior to Harry's inquiry was in the pensieve. For some reason Harry thought DD might have kept the mouth organ, despite his order to Riddle to return it to it's owner. My confusion was over why on earth Harry would think that. But after a third re-read of the passage I think he's taking a cue from DD's comment about Riddle's habit of hoarding things, and letting DD know he noted the trophies Riddle had stashed in his closet when he was at the orphanage. I still think it's a somewhat confusing passage though." -Jens From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 03:08:55 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:08:55 -0000 Subject: The Horcrux that time forgot.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133780 Kathi: >I am still convinced that Harry's scar is a horcrux. Interesting theory and one that would certainly wow the readers at the end of book 7. Two problems though: 1. It's stated both in OotP and HBP that Voldemort can't exist inside Harry's body. Therefore, it remains unlikely part of his soul could either. Even if it could, knowing as Voldy does now that he can't live inside Harry (OotP at the DOM), he would have to organise an eighth Horcrux to naturally be his seventh once he kills Harry - so Harry would still have to identify an entirely new one and destroy it. We don't know if Voldemort is aware of the destruction of his diary, let alone the locket, which would excuse his not having created two further Horcruxes. But then I suppose the whole point is to have back up plans. REGARDLESS: 2. If Harry's scar were indeed a Horcrux he would have to kill himself before Voldemort could die, unless JKR plans on entering some seriously weird Face/Off parallels (doo doo doo doo - which one is Travolta/Cage/Potter???). Imagine if she killed Harry before Voldemort? She'd have a trillion fans out to AK her ass. "queencrem" From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 03:59:33 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:59:33 -0000 Subject: JKR on Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133781 This is for all you naysayers out there - from the Leaky Cauldron interview... ES: We thought it was clearer than ever that Harry and Ginny are an item and Ron and Hermione ? although we think you made it painfully obvious in the first five books ? JKR: [points to herself and whispers] So do I! Now, you can't argue with the puppet master herself ;) Clementine From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 09:25:58 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:25:58 -0000 Subject: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133782 HunterGreen wrote: "The fact that he's so obviously evil is what makes it so hard to accept that he actually is. He's much more interesting as a "good-but-doesn't-act-it" character. As a bad guy, he's almost a stereotype, he dresses in dark clothes, he's a loner, he's cruel, he despises the main character of the books, he's the head of the Slytherin "evil" house (not that I agree that with that generalization), and he used to be Death Eater. As a reformed wizard, working against Voldemort at extreme risk, he's just more interesting, but as a bad guy, well, he's *obvious*." Del replies: I completely agree. If it turns out that Snape was indeed always evil, never on the side of good, and that DD was a fool for giving him a second chance, then I'll be severely disappointed. The ONE reason Snape is of ANY interest to me is that he is a horrible person working for the side of Good. If it turns out that he was always horrible, then he's simply BO-O-O-O-RING!!! I would also be very disappointed to have Sirius be right when he said (paraphrase) : "some spots don't come off", and DD be wrong for giving people second chances. I would hate for one conclusion of the series to be that some people don't deserve second chances, that people who are "too evil" (definition of that left to your own taste) simply can't change and repent. It would smack of predestination way too much for my taste. But then, some other things in the Potterverse also smack of predestination, so I wouldn't be overly surprised if that particular conclusion was reached and if it turned out that Snape was indeed always evil. Ah well, they are not MY books, are they? Del From trekkie at stofanet.dk Thu Jul 21 09:42:06 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:42:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP---WOW!!!! References: <16592-42DF4C52-1616@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <006301c58dd8$74e0f780$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133783 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP---WOW!!!! >I just finished listening to HBP and all that I can say is that I am > sitting here, with eyes aglaze and mouth hanging open. The section in > the cave is absolutely brilliant. > > I have a question: are the initials RAD or RAB? > The initials are R A B like in Beta. ~Trekkie From spherissa at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 07:32:54 2005 From: spherissa at gmail.com (Amanda Coleman) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:02:54 +0930 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c203281050721003224332de3@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133784 Ljd wrote: > > There is no doubt in my mind now of JKR's intentions for Snape. > I've spent some time researching her interview statements over > the past few days. I'm convinced of her thought processes now. > In short, Severus Snape was never meant to be anyone's favorite > character. And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal > flaw: his abundant capacity to love. Here are the quotes on > which I base these opinions: Spherissa: I agree that JKR didn't want Snape to be anyone's favourite character, what I disagree with is the point to her not wanting this. I think she wants to surprise us with Snape's real purpose, and with his redemption. On first reading The Lighning-Struck Tower I did think OH NO, NOT SNAPE! but on further thought I realised this is one of Rowling's Red Herrings. What made me think that is many of the oft repeated reasons, the parallelism in the Cave and Tower chapters, the pause before action, the fact that Dumbledore pleaded, I don't see Dumbledore pleading for his life. I can see him pleading for Snape's and Draco's though. Also -- I don't see Dumbledore as infallible, he has made a lot of mistakes in his trust in past books -- and in his own behaviour ie never really talking to Harry (which, actually I think is one of the key issues in the whole Harry Potter series, Communication -- what is being said to whom, by whom, how it is interpreted and how it is believed (or not)) But to get back to my response. No. Snape is not evil. But even if he is evil he is still one of the bravest characters in this series. Oooh, I could just slap Harry for calling him a coward! > Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? > JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable > question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore > his story and Dumbledore believes it. Spherissa here: Hm. JKR herself, here, isn't giving any reason to think whether she herself believes snape's reasoning. I'm just taking it on faith that I think she does, and I'm basing this on the canonical support for LOLLIPOPS. I think Snape didn't realise that ~Lily~ could be killed. I also think, that by this time Snape had a life debt to James. What is the cost of causing the death of someone to whom one has a life debt? Do we know? It certainly seems like it would be Bot Good Things and support Snape's change of camp. Also -- a lot of fandom is prepared to accept that Regulus Black found out a Secret about Voldemort and then changed camps, so far as to find one of his Horcruxes. Why can't we offer the same support to Snape? Who after all was within a few years, the same age as the silly young Regulus. (And I'd use this as support for my idea of the redemption of Draco.) > Q: What about Snape? > JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher > I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and > we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that > teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular > teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant > person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, > I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the > eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you > read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the > library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. Spherissa now: Snape is a sadist. No doubt. But I must confess to feeling disappointed by not seeing him teach DADA. Was there really not room for a couple of pages on Snape teaching a subject that made him happy? I would have appreciated seeing Snape doing somehting that gave him joy and met his view of himself. I think something to bear in mind with this quote is when it was stated. I'm not sure, but I think it was recently after the release of Book 4? So the surprising news on Snape would likely be his affiliation with the DEs and his double coatedness. I don't think JKR is saying he's an evil person through and through. I think what she is hinting at is: Yes, Snape is a sadist, no he's not someone you'd necessarily invite to dinner. But no, that's not all there is to him, just because he's icky in one response doesn't make him irredeemably evil in all ways. I think JKR is saying, keep an eye on Snape, he might give evidence that bad in one sense isn't bad in another. And, come to think of it, I think this is supported by her writing of Umbridge. Umbridge is by no means a nice woman. But I don't think she's ever portrayed as a DE. So -- you can be unpleasant, and do terrible things, and not owe your allegiance to Voldemort. In fact, look at some of Ginny's behaviour (crashing into the commentator's stand, jinxes) and the behaviour of the Marauders and you see that even white hats can be bullies and misuse their power. So in short, I don't think this quote necessarily means Snape is evil. Though of course, JKR's deliberate ambiguity allows multiple readings. > Q: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going > to fall in love. > JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with > them? That's a very horrible idea. Spherissa now: She doesn't say he doesn't/hasn't fallen in love. I have a suspicion Lily rejected Snape's love and that's when she became a filthy Mudblood. She hurt him, and he retaliated in the strongest way he knew, especially when she offered help to him. Snape is not the sort of person who would like to feel he cannot do for himself. Which I think is one of the tragedies of Snape. He doesn't allow people to care for him. > Q: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I > can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that > question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that > you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you > read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Spherissa now: Personally I think JKR is stunned becaus she's worried her great stunning denouement at the end of the series isn't going to be as stunning as she'd hoped. She's surprised people have cut through her red herrings is all. > Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? > A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape > because he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd > love to meet. Spherissa now: She's not saying she hates Snape here. In fact he's the first person she thinks of when favourite characters are mentioned. Given JKR's fun with mysteries and misleading people I think he's her favourite Because he's so misleading. And I think there's more to Hagrid than we yet now. Also... note just how stunned McG is when she finds out Snape killed Dumbledore. Pomfrey needs to get her a chair to sit on, and she's not saying Not Dumbledore, she's saying Not Snape, and then going into the whole we all wondered, but her first reaction is one of stunned disbelief. ((snips a terrible amount of the former post)) I agree in that I don't think Snape will survive the final battle, but I think he will always be on the side of the good. I think he will protect Draco and Narcissa. Question: How happy do you think Voldemort will be to find Snape has ocmpletely blown his cover at Hogwarts? Though at this point I don't know how important covers are going to be. After all -- Voldemort didn't give his okay to the Unbreakable Vow. I still don't think Snape knew what Draco's task was when he and Narcissa and Bellatrix were speaking in chapter 2. I firmly believe Dumbledore had to die. I think with Harry turning 17 and Lily's protective magic, at least in so far as the Dursleys' house is concerned gonge-- or at least about to go -- he has given Harry some other sacrificial protection. I also wonder about the phoenix that came out of Dumbledore's chest. I agree with you though in that I don't think Dumbledore's portrait will awaken for a bit... I think that traditionally each of the portraits stays somnolent at least for a little to give the new HM a chance to find his/her feet. Admittedly I base this on nothing but a gut feeling, but imagine how hard it is to start a new job with the old person who had that job looming over your shoulder the whole time and then think how much worse that would be in Hogwarts. Anyway... This reply is a lot longer than I had thought it would be.. Suffice to say, I find the quotes you offer to be ambiguous and I still maintain that Snape is on the side of the good; for many reasons given in many threads already, but also because on a literary level I think an evil Snape makes the stories go flat, and also because on a moral/Christian level, there is always room and time for redemption and forgiveness. Spherissa From cristina at prodigy.net Thu Jul 21 09:44:55 2005 From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:44:55 -0000 Subject: HBP---WOW!!!! In-Reply-To: <16592-42DF4C52-1616@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133785 > I have a question: are the initials RAD or RAB? > ME: RAB - In my opinion, this is Regulus Black - Sirius' brother, who died because he turned away from the Death Eaters and Voldermort. > Finally, here is my opinion on the ending: > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > 18 > 19 > 20 > > I do not believe for an instant that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape. ME: Neither do I. When Dumbledore insisted that Harry go and get Snape, and only Snape, he was putting a plan into action that had already been decided. I MOST DEFINATELY AGREE. > >> > When Dumbledore said, "Please," to Snape, he knew that he was dying and wanted Snape to finish the job. Why? The obvious answer is twofold, to keep Draco from becoming a killer and to make Snape the ultimate spy. Me: I agree with this theory except for one thing. Who is he spying for now? No one in the Order was obviously in on the plan, so anyone who meets up with him anywhere will most likely kill him on the spot. As to the question everyone is going to have, why didn't he kill Harry as well. 1.) Then there wouldn't be a book 7 (ha ha), but really Snape says that no one is to touch Harry that he is for Voldermort to kill. > The real reason? I don't know. I guess that I will find out in book > 7........Stan From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Thu Jul 21 07:43:35 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:43:35 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <200507191845990.SM00956@devbox> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133786 Vivamus wrote: > . . . instead of just pouring it out on the ground? > > Did that puzzle anyone else? Yeah, I wondered why not conjur 10 goblets and fill them, but not empty them. Set them on the ground. Would the basin know you weren't drinking them? HogwartsMom From trekkie at stofanet.dk Thu Jul 21 09:51:26 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:51:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys References: Message-ID: <006d01c58dd9$c2ea93e0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133787 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deb" To: Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:18 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys > > "... and when they reached the entrance hall, they found Madam > Pince standing beside Filch, she in a thick black veil that fell to > her knees, he in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs" Thick black veil? So thick it was almost impossible to tell who it was? There's another person at Hogwarts who is close to Filch - SNAPE! And ever since someone enlightened me with the anagram "Irma Pince = I'm a Prince"... well... Let's just say my cogwheels have been turning in double speed... Perhaps Snape *was* present at the funeral after all. Disguised as his... what? Mother ? Aunt? ~Trekkie From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Thu Jul 21 07:46:15 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:46:15 -0000 Subject: The Snape Hater Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133788 > John: > > > DD pleaded with Snape, and yet he was cold blooded enough to > > kill him like a dog in the dirt. For this, Snape is, in my > > book, worthy of death at the hands of Harry. > > "whimsygirl666" wrote: > DD was not pleading for his life, I am sure he was asking > Snape to kill him to save Draco. If Snape is loyal to the OoP also he would have had to retain his position at VM's side and not reveal his true loyalties in order to be of any future help. Wapp13 From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Thu Jul 21 07:49:45 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:49:45 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable vows In-Reply-To: <005f01c58d32$43367210$8100a8c0@portatilzas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133789 > Wapp13 wrote: > > Therefore someone must have performed that task if > > Snape and Dumbledore made an unbreakable vow. Who is the > > witness?? > fridwulfa wrote: > Aberforth, maybe??? Either him or Mad-Eye Moody. Don't ask me > why, but I think it was someone from the old OOTP, someone DD > trusted and these two are the only ones I can think of. Ah, and there's a theory on here somewhere (can'f find it momentarily) that Aberforth may even have the locket as Mundungus stole it from the Black household. Sounds as though he probably knows far more than credited for and hopefully will be of some use to Harry eventually. Wapp13 From cristina at prodigy.net Thu Jul 21 10:07:43 2005 From: cristina at prodigy.net (crisagi1) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:07:43 -0000 Subject: Snape: A third possibility? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133790 We seem to forget that his task was to kill Dumbledore by any means necessary. The method was totally up to him. It was extremely clever of him to contrive the idea of the vanishing boxes, and fix it, with out the knowledge or help of Snape, or anyone else. Snape just wanted to find out how he was going to do it. So not to have to really pick a side until the end was clear with one winner left standing. In my opinion, which means nothing, Snape has now painted himself into a corner. He has picked his side. Even if he had worked all this out with Dumbuldore before, even if he actually did this for altruistic reasons, (Not wanting Draco to become a killer, or Not wanting Dumbledore to suffer anymore - or to just end that battle and cut the losses for the Order.) no one will ever know. He can't turn back now. No one is going to wait for an explination. Sirius was sent to Azkaban with out a trial and without question. Snape will most likely be killed on the spot by whomever finds him first. Even if he is caught by the Ministry before the Order, he'll be put in Azkaban, and I don't believe they would let him live. crisagi > > > Jen's response: > But I think Snape might have known what Draco's task was - (forgive > me, I don't have my HBP with me so can't give citations or quotes) - > When Cissy asks him for the third request, to fulfill Draco's task, he > becomes still and looks at her intently. Could he have been using > legilemency? I also believe that Cissy might not have been able to > defend herself using occlumency, because, on the night of Slug's > Christmas party, Harry overhears Spape saying to Draco that apparently > his Aunt Bella (NOT his mother) was teaching him occlumency. I think > he would have had to agree to the task whether he knew what it was or > not - but I think there was a good chance that he did know. From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Thu Jul 21 10:08:25 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:08:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507210608443.SM00956@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133791 > Vivamus wrote: > > . . . instead of just pouring it out on the ground? > > > > Did that puzzle anyone else? > > > Yeah, I wondered why not conjure 10 goblets and fill them, but > not empty them. Set them on the ground. Would the basin > know you weren't drinking them? > > HogwartsMom Vivamus: Oh, that's even better! I think, if I were in Harry's position, and DD obviously intended to drink the poison, I would have snatched the full cup from his hand ("oops!") and dumped it, letting him get another full cup with the intention of drinking it, which would be snatched and dumped as well, and so on. As long as the contents were being scooped up with the *intention* of drinking them, it should work -- unless there is a charm on the ground as well, so poison poured there goes back in the bowl. It would be tricky to do, however. Your way would circumvent even that. If setting them on the ground doesn't work, conjure a platter, and hold the platter. LV must have had a way to retrieve the HC without drinking poison. It would seem the thing to do would be to wait there until you figured out the puzzle, rather than drink the poison. From persephone_uk at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 08:40:58 2005 From: persephone_uk at hotmail.com (Emily Salter) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:40:58 +0100 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: <1121923275.3012.33910.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133792 pookasmorning wrote: >I was blissfully reading the JRK interview that was posted on >Mugglenet/The Leaky Cauldron, and came to a bit that has given me >serious pause. > >*** >ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? > >JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? > >MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. > >JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little >laughter.] I have to give people hope. > >[snip] > >MA: whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this >knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that >said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely >your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you >don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so >on > >JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't > I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want >to shut down. >*** > >I was completely convinced that Snape was a triple agent and that >Dumbledore was pleading with him to go through with the murder. >100% sure. Now, however, I don't know what to think. That doesn't >sound to me like JKR sparing our sensibilities; it sounds like the >same sort of bet-hedging she did when asked about Harry/Hermione >(and the same interview shows how that one turned out). > >So is that it? Snape wasn't faking it? Was this whole book just >hitting us over the head with "Dumbledore is totally gullible, >OMG"? Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding >narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be >good) this whole time? But look what she then goes on to say a few lines later: "Generally speaking, I shut down those lines of speculation that are plain unprofitable. Even with the shippers. God bless them, but they had a lot of fun with it. It's when people get really off the wall it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. ... So, there are things I shut down just because I think, well, don't waste your time, there's better stuff to be debating, and even if it's wrong, it will probably lead you somewhere interesting. That's my rough theory anyway." That's a pretty evasive answer if you ask me and the fact that she's categorically not shutting the theory down suggests that there is some merit in it. She's messing with our heads here! I think she wants us to spend the next three years debating this instead of just accepting that Snape is evil like the characters seem to have done. And I know everyone's had their say on the evil/not evil debate, but all my pro-Snape thoughts are in this essay I wrote on the LJ Harry Potter essays community: http://www.livejournal.com/community/hp_essays/68860.html -Emily. From travellerrose at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 09:18:25 2005 From: travellerrose at yahoo.com (travellerrose) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:18:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133793 "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > I think DD's "please" was begging Snape to make the right choice > and he did not do it. This is why DD froze Harry...so Harry could > decide for himself--as DD did.. But surely DD froze Harry so would not interfere in the final act of the tragedy? Rose From rvssrkrishna at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 10:00:30 2005 From: rvssrkrishna at yahoo.com (Siva R.V.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:00:30 -0000 Subject: What could happen in HP 7? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133794 After reading book 6, I have made the following theories about book 7. Anyone to agree or refute? :) Theory1: Slughorn is the DA teacher who taught both Voldemart and Snape. He might teach Harry too in year 7 in DA. Theory2: Harry looks mediocore against Snape in fighting in book 6. Could be that Harry gains more powers after becoming 17 ("coming of age"). Theory3: Lily is the one who saved Snape while James was teasing him (mentioned in book 5?). I won't be surprised that the author throws up an angle wherein Snape loved Lily but James finally got her. Since Harry was like James could be the reason why Snape hated Harry. But being the son of a woman whom he loved could be that Snape is helping Harry. Snape might have hoped that by revealing the location of Harry's parents that Voldemort will kill James and Harry leaving Lily alone. Note that Voldemort gives Lily an option of running away leaving Harry to him. It might be a secret agreement between Snape and Voldemort that Voldemort will leave alone Lily and kill the other two. The killing of Lily might have made Snape to act against Voldemort. Snape might have honestly confessed this to Dumbledore which made him believe Snape. I guess probably this might be the remarkable info about Lily which will get revealed in book 7. Theory4: Buckbeak/Phoenix will have a role to play in killing of Nagini, pet/horcrux of Voldemart Theory5: RAB = Sounds like Reamus Albus ????. Someone related to Dumbledore? Whats the history of Dumbledore? Is he related to anyone? Theory6: In book 2, Dumbledore tells Harry that one day Harry will be glad that he pardoned Wormtail. Could be that Wormtail returns Harry's favour in book 7. Theory7: What is the role of Hagrid's brother Grawp? My theory is that author is making sure that everyone has an important role? How Hagrid will help Harry in book 7? -siva From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 10:07:18 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:07:18 -0000 Subject: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione/Quidditch comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133795 "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > Huh? Hermione managed to seduce Krum? In fact, Krum was > tremendously attracted to Hermione, sought her out and > indicated his interst in her... how is this Hermione's > "seduction" of Krum... Well, by being Hermione, which gave her an unfair romantic advantage over other girls with regard to Krum. :) I will agree that Hermione was oblivious to Krum before she was aware of his attraction, but that doesn't make her less of a threat to Ginny. H was hardly even trying! Hermione possesses a bouquet of assets that would prove useful if she sets her mind to pairing with Harry that Ginny will have a hard time competing with. Also, Hermione acknowledged Krum's attraction by accentuating her own feminine attributes, to stupifying effect on Ron/Harry. This was not the seduction of an indifferent partner, but the reciprocal continuing seduction of Krum. The seduction continued past the Yule Ball, showing Hermione's comfort with the softer side of femininity. Though Hermione likely gave full and respectful attention to her relationship with Krum, she was also making a statement to Ron and Harry about her possible future intentions. Because I have a H/Hr ship bias, I believe that deep down, she loves Harry romantically to an extent she's not completely letting on to Ron or Harry. But she is respecting his status as the Chosen One by allowing him to concentrate on his destiny, and therefore projecting her attraction to Ron due to her perceived unavailability/taboo with Harry. But now that Ginny has proved how attainable Harry is, I think Hermione is going to be having second thoughts. But that doesn't leave many people for Ginny to pair with, and I somehow doubt JKR will leave her like that since she seems to like the char so much. Maybe dead or paired with Malfoy. She's not prepared to bear the burden of mourning for the Chosen One - a task much better suited to poor Hermione. "mg_mchenry" From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 03:14:26 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:14:26 -0000 Subject: Ron & Hermione's Early Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133796 Adam Corbett wrote: > When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, Ron & Hermione have > obviously been discussing his situation, but seem much more > reluctant to talk to him than they have in the past. Has > anyone picked up on what they could be referring to? When > they're talking about him being 'off with Dumbledore', Ron > starts to say what he and Hermione thought might've been > going on, but she stops him. And they're pretty weird with > him for quite some time (even with not believing him about > Draco - in the past, Hermione has been much more ready to > pick up on subtle clues, and Ron always wants to believe the > worst of a Slytherin - this seemed very strange as well). > > I was wondering if anyone had a clue what they were thinking - > did they think Dumbledore had taken him to battle Voldemort? > Did they think Harry might be the next D.A.D.A. teacher? Did > they think he's found a way to communicate with Sirius? When Harry explains to Ron and Hermione that Dumbledore explained the prophecy to him and told them essentially the town wasn't big enough for both he and the Big Bad, Hermione says they thought it might have been something like that. Don't forget, he hadn't mentioned it at all at the end of school so for all they know that's the reason Dumbledore went to pick him up. I think they also realise things are getting heavy and are worried, not just about Harry, but scared for their own lives (because they know they'll stick with HP no matter what). After this, they pretty much get back to normal. Also, remember the last time they met up over the summer and Harry was a total ratbag to them. I don't think it's a major plot point. "Clementine" From hambtty at triad.rr.com Thu Jul 21 10:46:31 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:46:31 -0000 Subject: Polyjuice and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133797 BG writes: Why is there a vat of PP in the school this year? Who is using it? DD and Snape? Is Snape dead and DD went off with Draco? I know it sounds bizarre but after reading JKR's interview on Mugglenet.com I really doubt that DD is dead and I was so sure before. Maybe they got the idea from Crouch,Jr. who infiltrated Hogwarts as Moody using the PP. I believe the blast at the top of the tower is the Unbreakable Vow being broken by Snape (as DD). DD(as Snape)cast the AK knowing that he didn't mean it and therefore it wouldn't work but the broken vow killed him. The body was completely wrapped at the funeral. If Snape (as DD) had returned to Snape no one would have seen him. The flames enclosed him in the tomb and no one can view the body - ever. Why did DD let Snape have the DADA position when he knew it was cursed and that it would be Snape's last year? DD and Snape knew that he would not keep the UV and gave him his last wish - to be the DADA's teacher. The portrait confuses the issue but maybe that was pre-arranged too - we'll have to see if DD's portrait acts the same as the other previous Headmaster's portraits. It all fits, not neatly, but fits. Thoughts? Am I way off base? From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 04:04:27 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:04:27 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133798 Doddie wrote: > I am absolutely livid with Snape but not for Killing > Dumbledore..but for telling Voldemort about the prophecy! > > Sheesh, look at what Snape's actions started! > > Murder of the Potters, torture of the Longbottoms!! > > And then he has the nerve to be snide and unpleasant among other > things to both Harry and Neville when they are around him.(He > cannot even manage cool indifference!) > > DD will have his reasons for trusting Snape...DD made his choice! > > Harry and Neville not much of a reason at all to trust Snape. > > Much of Snape's behavior in HBP may be able to be > explained/reasoned away...but not his treatment of Harry, and not > his treatment of Neville and not even his continued loathing of > James in the previous five books...Snape did, after all, have a > hand in James death and he owed James a life debt no less!!!!! Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but it's possible of course that the reason Snape is so loathsome towards Harry, Neville and the memory of James is because he secretly hates himself for being the cause of everything that's happened. We already know Snape is horrible and humourless - this doesn't make him evil. Remember what Dumbledore said in OotP about bad people not necessarily being on the side of evil (in regards to Dolores Umbridge - incidentally one of the juiciest and most vile villains ever written!). Harry and Neville are the living embodiments of Snape's failure to be good and he hates them for it. Besides, if it weren't for Snape the prophecy would never have fulfilled itself as Dumbledore explained countless times it must. I know JKR hasn't finished LOTR, but consider Snape the Gollum of the series... "Clementine" From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Thu Jul 21 11:05:09 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:05:09 -0000 Subject: Reposted: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All In-Reply-To: <009501c58da8$888d2220$e659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: lots of snip Lily's love was transmuted into a > protection. bigsnipagain But Jan continued. Flamel. Flamel was to > > set his affairs in order and then he would die. Ah, but here we are > talking > > about the achiever of the Stone, the one who has achieved the higher state > > of being. Here is one who is also dying willingly for a noble cause. Has > his > > love or purity of purpose, I wonder, been transmuted into any other type > of > > protective spell? A very good thought by Jan. > > > > And now here comes Cindy with this ludicrous disloyalty idea about Snape. > > But the reason she gives--that Dumbledore has to die, and being betrayed > is > > the only way--hmmm. Dumbledore has to die, eh? Yeah, I agree, he probably > > will. But if Jan is right, and there is a charm or spell that can > transmute > > a willing and loving death into a powerful protection, I can see another > way > > Dumbledore could exit. A very likely way. > > ---------------------------- > > "Okay," the Geist continued, making another chilly pass through everyone to > wake them up, "here's two parts, then: > > "1. A willing death can be a part of an extremely powerful spell. > "2. We already thought Dumbledore was likely to die, simply for > character-development reasons; Jan offers a reason--for the furtherance of > defenses, achievable in no other way. > Anotherbigsnip > > Harry's protection, the reason he survived, was not simply that Lily died > > for him, but that her willing sacrifice was the final element of a spell > > that created the strong protection. What if Snape, having access to the > > wizard likely to throw that spell, and access to Dumbledore, was > > instrumental in crafting that spell? > > > > The other willing death we have seen, or that was strongly intimated, is > > Flamel's himself. And what if a willing sacrifice *can* be incorporated > into > > a strong protective spell, and what if Dumbledore and Snape *are* working > on > > that.....? And what if Snape's task is to seem to betray Dumbledore, whose > > own willing death will be a component in Voldemort's defeat? 'notherbigsnip > --The spell, whatever it is, to which Dumbledore's death is integral, will > have been completed (or nearly so). Now AmanitaMuscaria: Agreed. What if the spell requires these sacrifices? They all are then, part of the same, ever-building protection for Harry. Whatif they are all part of an anti-Horcrux? Tie it in with the 'love' protection, and you might have the sacrifices equalling the breaking of one's own soul into pieces, except what you get is the augmenting of Harry's soul and ability to love? An echo, almost, of the fountain of magical bretheren leaping one by one in front of Dumbledore? > > "These are key because Snape will now be in a *superb* position to implement > or otherwise set in motion or effect, the spell. Having a tremendous spell > ready is of no use at all, if the spell cannot be cast or implemented due to > lack of access. Access is of no use without a weapon. Snape will have both > the access and the means." snipsnipsnip > ~Amanda AmanitaMuscaria again - So the final bit of the spell/potion/whatever is to be put in place, and Snape is in the ideal position to do it. Exactly. To me, the idea of a big explosions, lots of blood and gore finale would have little impact - I don't think that's how JKR works. So, as in this book, the DeathMark appears, but the death happens afterwards. It's much more impactful. Waiting for the next book. AmanitaMuscaria From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 11:04:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:28 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shannon" wrote: Momy424: > Also, I am pretty sure it has been revealed that Dumbledore taught > Divinations when he was a professor and not DADA. Geoff: Transfiguration to be accurate. Tom Riddle: "Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as gamekeeper. Yes, I think Dumbledore might have guessed. Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did..." (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.230 UK edition) From bhavna at impsmanagement.com Thu Jul 21 10:55:46 2005 From: bhavna at impsmanagement.com (Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:25:46 +0530 Subject: Various Observations (Harry at Hogwarts year 7 / What use is Snape in the rest of the plot) References: <1121932074.2215.65810.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <013601c58de2$c055c920$2c00a8c0@tasneem> No: HPFGUIDX 133801 Hi all, I have joined this group the day just yesterday (afer reading HBP) and I am quite impressed with all the discussions going on here. This is my first post so I hope it's framed right! pdoshi72 wrote: > What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? She would > get Harry back to Hogwarts, Ron and Hermione could continue their > N.E.W.T. studies, Harry would probably still have time to search > for the Horcruxes, with the help of Ron and Hermione, and he > could even still have contact with Ginny. > This seems impossible - it's just too hunky dory and we've all seen JKR's style so far. Moreover JKR clearly mentions in HBP that Tom was refused a teaching job becuase he was 'only 17'. (all references UK paperback) However Voldemort hijacking Hogwarts is a very strong possibility since Hogwarts was the only place he felt at home and DD was the only obstacle in his way to take over the school. It is a good possibility that Voldemort would use Hogwarts as HQ for all his evil plots until the final showdown! 'I wonder if Snape is a Horcrux, admitted it to DD (who would know how to verify it), and THAT is why DD trusted Snape so much. So, in HP7, Harry faces LV after finding 3 of the 4 remaining HXs while Snape lurks. Does Snape take an AK to the chest to save Harry, leaving Harry to finish off LV? ' I do not think that's possible. If Snape is a Horcrux, Voldemort simply had to use Snape and his body after killing Lily and James and nearly destroying himself attacking HP. Again HP being a Horcrux would require a lot of convincing since he has never shown any evil intentions. I do want to believe that Snape will come out as a good guy at the end acting on DD's orders ...If Snape really was a DE - after killing DD with the AK in HBP he could have easily stayed back to take some more lives so that HP would be further isolated -we all know he doesn't get along with anyone from the MoM - taking lives of McG, Lupin, Tonks would have made him even more lonely and vulnerable for Voldemort. He would have been the one person who would have been able to do it with absolute ease - But Snape instead chose to flee and save DM. I think Snape was acting to free himself of the sins he committed against the person who once saved his life - James Potter - splitting his own soul on DD's orders. Regards Bhavna India From medeacallous at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 11:16:05 2005 From: medeacallous at yahoo.ca (medeacallous) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:16:05 -0000 Subject: Snape giveaway by JKR in BBC interview? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133802 Did anyone else catch this? from http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/469088 5.stm (linked elsewhere) ______________________________________________ CLARE FORDYCE FOR THE SCOTTISH BOOK TRUST - WHAT CHARACTER WOULD YOU HATE MOST TO BE STUCK ON A DESERT ISLAND WITH? JK Rowling: Oh my word. That is a good one. Lockhart would get a little tedious after 30 seconds. Umbridge, Umbridge wouldn't be good. I mean Voldemort would not be good in the sense that he would kill me, but I would rather die than be stuck on an island with Umbridge or Lockhart. Who else? Vernon Dursley, oh no, in fact I have been places with people like Vernon Dursley, that is uncomfortable. Umbridge and Lockhart just for the ?? I could not bear it, even thinking about it. So she would rather die than be stranded with Umbridge or Lockhart, she thinks Voldemort would kill her and Dursley would be a bit of a drag. ______________________________________________ But no Snape, despite what she always says about what a horrible person he is?! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 11:25:21 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:25:21 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133803 > Doddie wrote: > > I am absolutely livid with Snape but not for Killing > > Dumbledore..but for telling Voldemort about the prophecy! > > > > Sheesh, look at what Snape's actions started! > > > > Murder of the Potters, torture of the Longbottoms!! > > > > And then he has the nerve to be snide and unpleasant among other > > things to both Harry and Neville when they are around him.(He > > cannot even manage cool indifference!) > "Clementine": > Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but it's possible of course > that the reason Snape is so loathsome towards Harry, Neville and > the memory of James is because he secretly hates himself for being > the cause of everything that's happened. We already know Snape is > horrible and humourless - this doesn't make him evil. Remember what > Dumbledore said in OotP about bad people not necessarily being on > the side of evil (in regards to Dolores Umbridge - incidentally one of the juiciest and most vile villains ever written!). Harry and Neville are the living embodiments of Snape's failure to be good > and he hates them for it. > "Clementine" Valky: This is possibly (nay categorically IMO) the single best explanation for Snapes behaviour toward the boys that I have ever heard, even before I put on my Pashmina and joined the Snape camp, Clem, I would surely have patted you on the back for this one. It makes perfect sense to me to imagine Severus as somebody that would just want the reminders of his past mistakes to just fade away and disappear, he *hates* to be wrong or at fault. OTOH it doesn't explain his contempt for Hermione, which is definitely not fair, although she *is* sometimes insufferable, and thoughtless or too intellectual in her reasoning and dealings with people, but Snape took his disliking to her at first sight, it was plain not on. Ahh Snape's a nasty git, mostly, who should be slapped every now and then by the nearest person to him, but when it comes to the hardest of all choices, he's got incredible courage and fortitude.. he might make a decent fixer upper(lol), I didn't mind that about Sirius and James.. I like Snape.. Valky snuggling back under her Pashmina From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Thu Jul 21 11:29:23 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:29:23 -0400 Subject: Seven Horcruxes (HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507210729569.SM00956@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133804 SPOILER WARNING!!!! > On 7/19/05, Rachel wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" > wrote: > > > So if we are to agree that 4 Horcurxes are objects from the four > > > houses, a fifth is the gaunt ring and a sixth is > Voldemort himself > > > that still leaves the seventh and final Horcrux missing... > > > > > > I'm putting my money on Harry at the moment. > > > > > > How about Nagini? I think she might have one, and he might > not have anything from GG. > > > > Rachel > > > You're forgetting Riddle's diary, it was a Horcrux too, one > that has already been destroyed. > > Four items from founders, the ring, the diary, the makes six. > It means that there are no horcruxes in Nagini or Harry/Harry's scar. > > Alina. Vivamus: I understood Tom Riddle's comments about seven horcruxes to mean that he intended to make seven external to himself, so they (the magical number of seven) would support him if his body were killed. If Harry was to be the seventh murder, creating the seventh horcrux, then it could be (1) that there are only six horcruxes, because he did not succeed, (2) there is a seventh but not "filled", or (3) LV had an accomplice with him, who removed the horcrux from the scene, as LV DID split his soul in attempting to kill Harry, even though he was not successful, or (4) the seventh HC is Harry's scar or GH or some such, due to the interrupted murder. If (3) is the case, then there ARE seven horcruxes to be found. It also means that LV did have accomplices at GH, because he would also have made horcruxes for the murders of James and Lily. The accomplices would have removed the three final horcruxes. I doubt LV would do it this way, as it would mean he would have to entrust his DEs with the importance of the HCs. The concept of (4) has a very nice symmetry to it, particularly if the HC is the scar. We know that "scar" is the last word in book seven, and we know that the scar has been Harry's connection to LV all along. We also know that Harry has been feeling LV's feelings ever since LV got his body back -- which might well imply that the slice of LV's soul that was in the scar was part of what supported LV returning to his body. (Hmmm. Implications for the gleam of "something like triumph", anyone?) Harry has always hated the scar, since it always set him apart, so it would be nice to see him destroy it as part of the final destruction of LV. If LV committed the attempted murder of Harry with the intention of splitting his soul off into a HC, then there are probably three magical objects which were at GH. Two of them are genuine HCs corresponding to the deaths of James and Lily. The third would most likely be empty, because the HC would instead be the scar. An alternative is that LV probably made more than seven murders, so he might have made all seven HCs as a young man. (Balancing that is Sirius' comment in GoF that he only did "important" murders.) If the murder of the entire Riddle family is only considered one horrible act, then that could have been the splitting of the soul that resulted in the Diary as the first HC. If in fact the murder of each individual Riddle was a separate act, then he could have pulled out his wand, trapped and horrified them all, then coolly murdered them all one by one, decanting (or whatever is done) his soul into a different object with each murder. (There were just three present, were there not -- Tom Sr. and his parents?) If that is the case, then two more HCs would be objects he could attain as a 16-year old. Candidates for the seven HCs as I see it would be (although there *might* only be six): 1. Riddle's diary (confirmed and destroyed) 2. Slytherin's ring (confirmed and destroyed) 3. Hufflepuff's cup 4. Ravenclaw's locket (confirmed, and probably the one that was in GP, stolen by Regulus) 5. Gryffindor's _________ (sword? hat? something new? tomb? bones? [JKR did say a graveyard at Hogwarts would play an important part in the plot. What better place for a hidden HC than a headstone?]) I'm inclined to think it could not be either the sword or the hat, since DD asserted the sword was clean, and the hat clearly has a personality that (it seems to me) would be contaminated in some way by a slice of LV's soul. That does fit very nicely, doesn't it? 6. Nagini (Although there may be a problem with Nagini as a HC. JKR once said she originally intended the boa constrictor in PS/SS to be Nagini, which would mean LV acquired Nagini long after the attack upon the Potters. I was under the impression Nagini was acquired after LV had been disembodied, which would rule her out as a HC. Anyone have canon on this?) If there is not the timing problem of Nagini's acquisition, then I agree that Nagini makes a perfect HC. 7. Harry or Harry's scar. (I'll vote for the scar.) 8. Ginny (from CoS interaction with TR's diary) (I regard this as not likely, but barely possible. I *still* expect Ginny to be a parselmouth. She may well use that power to help Harry destroy Nagini.) Vivamus From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 04:43:31 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:43:31 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133805 pdoshi72 wrote: > > What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? She would > > get Harry back to Hogwarts, Ron and Hermione could continue > > their N.E.W.T. studies, Harry would probably still have time > > to search for the Horcruxes, with the help of Ron and Hermione, > > and he could even still have contact with Ginny. > Allie: > I thought of this too. I think offerring Harry a teaching > position would be an excellent way to get the otherwise > disinclined Harry back to Hogwarts. He wants his friends to be > protected, he wants to learn more himself, maybe he could even > continue to take a few classes. In the Leaky Cauldron interview (a must read!) JKR says the Quidditch match where Luna commentates is the last match she'll ever write. This seems to be a strong indication that Hogwarts won't really feature next year. Besides, wasn't it made perfectly plain at the end of HBP that Harry plans to go to Godric's Hollow, do a bit of brushing up on skills, some research etc - in short, enter his Dagobah phase? Give up the ghost on Hogwarts, it ain't gonna happen! Further, for the final book in the series, Harry really needs to move beyond the realms of the schoolyard. In his present state, I don't think he can realistically hope to kill a powerful LV with a band of latent homoerotic Death Eaters on his side and one crazy Drusilla! He needs to become a man, steep himself in some seriously badass magic. "Clementine" From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jul 21 11:36:56 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:36:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721113656.26798.qmail@web86209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133806 --- "M.Clifford" wrote: > > OTOH it doesn't explain his contempt for Hermione, > which is definitely > not fair, although she *is* sometimes insufferable, > and thoughtless or > too intellectual in her reasoning and dealings with > people, but Snape > took his disliking to her at first sight, it was > plain not on. > Actually I thought book 6 provided a very good explanation for why Snape hasn't treated Hermione as "the best student he'd ever had". She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following the instructions to a 't'. That was very surprising, at least for me. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From luigina at eircom.net Thu Jul 21 11:29:58 2005 From: luigina at eircom.net (Luigina Ciolfi) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:29:58 +0100 Subject: More funny lines in the book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133807 My favourite funny line, when Nearly Headless Nick tells Harry that Dumbledore has returned to Hogwarts (Chapter 23 - Horcruxes) NHN: " I had it from the Bloody Baron, who saw him arrive (...) He appeared, according to the Baron, to be in good spirits, though a little tired, of course.' 'Where is he?' said Harry, his heart leaping. 'Oh, groaning and clanking up on the Astronomy tower, it's a favourite pastime of his-' 'Not the Bloody Baron, Dumbledore!' "Luigina" From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 11:42:52 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:42:52 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > wrote: > > pookasmorning wrote: > > > Has JRK been playing with the readers' expectations regarding > > > narrative conventions (i.e. the guy who seems bad must in fact be > > > good) this whole time? Someone smart needs to weigh in; I need a > > > cookie. > > > > Milz replied: > > >>I think the readership has been playing with their own > expectations. > > The best example is the Harry-Hermione shipper thing.<< > > > > HunterGreen: > > Though this wasn't your exact point, I think the Harry/Hermione > > shipping is a wonderful example of the traditional conventions. > The > > main character should be the one to "get the girl", not > > the "sidekick". > The main character DID get the girl----though she's not the girl the H/Hr shippers wanted him to get. She is still the girl the author has been setting up for him to get. While it's a departure for the sidekick---he got the girl too. And she's the girl the author has been dropping "anvil" sized clues about since CoS. > Richard: > I still wouldn't count the H/Hr ship as fully sunk. JKR is > consistently surprising. As I've said elsewhere, I think the only > two logical ships for Harry were H/Hr and H/G. These are the only > two relationships thus far where the four classical requirements for > love (knowledge, concern, respect and pro-active responsibility) can > be demonstrated. We also have no guarantee that ANY of the main > characters will be alive at the end of the tale. There is some > canonical support for Ron not surviving. Who's to say that Ginny > must survive? Only JKR really knows at this point. It is also > possible (though I think unlikely) that JKR could leave Harry bereft > REGARDLESS of who survives, or that there might be some other match > that she would introduce in the course of book 7, OR EVEN that The > Good Ship Harry/? will be built, christened, launched and sail off > into the radiant sunset in the "after the dust settled" chapter JKR > has repeatedly discussed. > True, the series is still in progress so there's no telling who will end up with whom and who will end up dead. If we are to believe that Trelawney is accurate sometimes, then Ron and Harry have a good chance of dying. In that case, no one will get the girl and live happily ever after----and that's a possibility too. Personally, I don't want Harry to survive. In classic 'hero' myths, the hero sacrifices all--at times his life-- to defeat evil thereby making the world a better place. And that's what makes him a "hero" in the classic sense: his willingness to sacrifice himself in order to save the whole from Evil (which must be destroyed). Harry has already sacrificed in HBP---he choose to break up with Ginny in order to keep her "safe" but in doing so he choose to forego his own happiness. It will be interesting to see what other personal sacrifices Harry makes as he moves towards the Final Battle. > Part of what I've enjoyed about this series is that JKR usually gets > things pretty dead on, and still manages to surprise us. (I fear > that there will be a serious flaw in a R/H ship, if these two do not > change significantly 'ere this ship (probably) sails (I think many > under-rate the importance of respect in love), but war, and > particularly combat, are among the generally accepted and quite > limited things that can significantly change personality.) Thus, > part of what I have tried to do in a prior post is get people to > keep an open mind and let the story JKR is telling play out as she > chooses. Once the tale is done, then the WHOLE story can be picked > over like a carcass on the Serengeti (sp?). Until we have only > clues for speculation, but cannot count on such speculation > yielding "truth." > > > Milz continued: > > [snip] >>So I think they build their own expectations up and > > reinforce these expectations by constant rumination on their > beliefs. > > When Rowling is unequivocal, they head for denial and make up even > > more theories why they are still right to cling to their hopes and > > desires. The Draco and Snape apologists have the same problem (see > > Rowling's idea on that subject---it's very true and I share her > > concern as well). > > > > I try not to read between the letters because I've learned that > these > > books are best enjoyed when taken at face value.<< > > > > HunterGreen: > > I think so too. While she is tricky, she's not THAT tricky. Though > I > > have been guilty of looking too hard for secret sub-plots (ahem, > ESE! > > Fudge), its better taken with a grain of salt, knowing that the > > elaborate wild explainations are not likely to be true. It reminds > me > > of all the theories that Snape wasn't really a spy for the death- > > eaters (and that he wasn't the one Voldemort referenced in the > > graveyard), or that the mauraders weren't in Gryffindor, or the > > James/Lupin switching spell (I won't mention the Vampire!Snape > > theory, because that one had a lot of seeming clues in the text). > > > > Sure, perhaps it is true that Snape and Dumbledore put together > his > > death and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders and all that, > but I > > just cannot see how that would play out in the text, especially > with > > Dumbledore being dead. I would really like it if Snape went back > to > > being a jerk who is fighting hard for the side of good, I liked > him a > > lot better that way, but I have a sinking feeling that it isn't > true. > > > > I think the ESE!Snape debate is still wonderfully open. Personally > I think he is ESE, but the fact is that we won't know until the end. > > We may find (perhaps through DD's portrait) that the reason DD > trusted Snape was that he knew Snape would not betray DD in any way > that could be traced back to Snape, so long as DD lived, precisely > so as to maintain his position as a spy for LV, AND that the fly in > that ointment was Narcissa's visit to Snape and the resulting > unbreakable vow ... which DD did not know about. DD's first > realization of disaster impending would thus be Snapes appearance at > Draco's side when he knows that Draco is there to kill him. I've been guilty of looking too hard for subplots too. That's why I stopped participating in this discussion group. I saw too many people get caught into their own theories that they couldn't see (or didn't want to see) how Rowling was directing the show. It got to the point here where people were saying that Jo Rowling's version of Harry Potter wasn't the definitive version. I don't think that's very healthy. Jo Rowling has the directions to our destination and is driving this bus---we're merely enjoying the ride. Rowling has said in various interviews that she was shocked when she (incognito) was in a chat and was telling the chatters what was the real score and they told her that she was wrong and didn't know what she was talking about. But I wasn't shocked at all. I could clearly see that happening, even here in this discussion group, because I've seen it happen in non-Harry forums. AFter reading Rowling's interview on Mugglenet, I'm more convinced that Snape and Draco will not be redeemed in Book 7: JKR: It amuses me. It honestly amuses me. People have been waxing lyrical [in letters] about Draco Malfoy, and I think that's the only time when it stopped amusing me and started almost worrying me. I'm trying to clearly distinguish between Tom Felton, who is a good looking young boy, and Draco, who, whatever he looks like, is not a nice man. It's a romantic, but unhealthy, and unfortunately all too common delusion of ? delusion, there you go ? of girls, and you [nods to Melissa] will know this, that they are going to change someone. And that persists through many women's lives, till their death bed, and it is uncomfortable and unhealthy and it actually worried me a little bit, to see young girls swearing undying devotion to this really imperfect character, because there must be an element in there, that "I'd be the one who [changes him]." I mean, I understand the psychology of it, but it is pretty unhealthy. So, a couple of times I have written back, possibly quite sharply, saying [Laughter], "You want to rethink your priorities here." I think Rowling described the underlying psychology of the Draco- Snape apologists perfectly. For her to redeem either would be a contradiction to her statement above. I do think, that if Rowling didn't get letters of this nature, she might have been more inclined to redeem the "baddies". Frankly, I think it's admirable that Rowling takes such a social concern in her young readership. Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 11:56:45 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:56:45 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > pookasmorning quoted the interview: > > MA: whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this > knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that > said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely > your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, > Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on ? > > JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? > I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to > shut down. > *** > > > This is the "evidence" from JKR that Dumbledore definitely did not > order Snape to kill him? This looks to me like JKR saying, "I don't > want to give that away. It would ruin the 7th book." I don't see an > answer one way or the other in her response. > > snipsnapsnurr Here's the parts of Rowling's answer you didn't include above: JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't ? I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. Generally speaking, I shut down those lines of speculation that are plain unprofitable. Even with the shippers. God bless them, but they had a lot of fun with it. It's when people get really off the wall ? it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. ES: It's when you look for those things ? JKR: Yeah, it's after the 15th rereading when you have spots in front of your eyes that you start seeing clues about Snape being the Lord of Darkness. So, there are things I shut down just because I think, well, don't waste your time, there's better stuff to be debating, and even if it's wrong, it will probably lead you somewhere interesting. That's my rough theory anyway. So Rowling wants some theories to be discussed because they are more profitable for the discussions. In other words if the discussion is totally off the wall like the Snape is a vampire speculation, she'll shut it down. However, that doesn't mean to say, she'll only allow speculations on things that will definitely happen in the final book. This was the part of the interview slightly before the above passage: ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope. It looks like she is encouraging speculation not because it will definitely happen, but because she doesn't want to destroy hope in her readership. So, while it's nice to speculate, don't get so caught up in the speculation that you can't see the real clues peppered throughout the books. Millz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 12:29:34 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:29:34 -0000 Subject: Ginny, Snape and assorted desiderata ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > I used to be a very active member of this Group a few years ago, > and I > > clearly remember many discussions about Hermione's romantic > feelings > > for Harry and her non-romantic feelings for Ron. IMO, these people > > tended to be the ones who identified with Hermione and wanted her > to > > be with Harry because they preferred Harry (the hero, the > celebrity of > > the series) over Ron (the sidekick). And for these people, any > pairing > > contrary to what they want will be unsuitable. That's why I don't > > bother with the "shippers"---they're too narrow-minded, which makes > > them overlook many of the blatantly obvious clues Rowling has been > > dropping in the previous books. > > Richard: > I think this is a pretty much anticipatible problem in such a long > serious that gets spread over so many real-world years. People are > left to speculate, and with so much material, personal views, > desires, and such will tend to out-weigh the story as it is being > told. > Not really. I'm a fan of the "Stephanie Plum" series by Janet Evanovich too. Evanovich puts out a new Plum novel every one to two years. Sure there are people who want her to choose one man over the man, but they aren't nearly as "millitant" as the HP shippers. And the Plum shippers are more than willing to admit "if I was Stephanie I would choose Joe" or "if I hope Stephanie would pick Ranger because I would!". HP shipper rarely do that. As I said they identify with the HP characters to the point where they are adamant that Harry will marry and have 7 children with Hermione, etc. > Still, I wouldn't count the H/Hr ship as resting eternally at the > bottom of the Sea of Love, either. What might happen if Ron and > Ginny are both dead at the end of the tale is quite open to > speculation, and, as I've said, there are logical reasons for > thinking that the only two viable ships for Harry thus far are H/Hr > and H/G. (Keep repeating, "Knowledge, concern, respect and > responsibility!") When the basic requirements for love are > fulfilled, the question ceases to be, "Why would he/she/they?" and > becomes, "Why not?" > True, but there's a distinct possibility that Harry doesn't survive Book 7 either. In that case, unless Harry steals Hermione away from Ron, that ship might not sail. > > > > > > As for Snape, I think his loving Lily is still on the table as a > real > > > possibility. Why? Slughorn has said repeatedly that Lily was > very > > > gifted at potions. This opens at several possible arguments on > the > > > point, and her are a few of them. > > > > > > First, since we "know" that Snape was very gifted in this field, > it > > > might be the case that he helped Lily, and that the dislike of > her > > > that he also been stated in canon came later due to her > rejection of > > > him in favor of James. In this line, it could be argued that > her > > > disapproval of James' treatment of Snape in the pensieve scene > was in > > > part a certain loyalty to someone who had helped her, and not > merely > > > her sense of fairness. > > > > > > > In OoP US hardcover page 649 Chapter: Snape's Worst Memory: > > > > "there you go, " he {James] said, as Snape struggled to his feet > > again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus-" > > > > "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" > > > > I don't get the feeling that Snape had the hots for Lily with that > > remark.... > > > > BUT this does give an interesting look into Snape's psyche: he's a > > half Muggle, yet he holds a Muggle born in contempt. So Snape is > > projecting his perceived undesirable qualities onto Lily (and other > > Muggle borns). > > Richard: > I see more than a little self-loathing in Snape, even though he is > also a very proud person. (OK, "egotist" may be a better term.) > And I don't think you can discount any possible attraction until we > have JKR's final word precisely because if Lily WAS that good at > potions she might STILL have Snape's respect, even as he is/was > deeply ambivalent about it. Further, a comment made at a point > where he might well be recognizing Lily's drift towards James, with > the resulting resentment that would certainly attend in a person > like Snape, shouldn't be seen as definitive with regard to all > relations between the two for all time. > And egotists are a tad bit narcissicistic too. Those type of people are too in love with themselves to bother with loving other people, in my experience. After reading OoP, I liked Snape to those disturbed teens who shoot up their schoolmates---while they want love and respect, they don't get it, so their anger and resentment turns to hate. Unlike Kebold and Harris in Columbine, Snape "got back" at the popular kids after leaving school. > > > I don't buy that Snape co-wrote the notes in the Potions book nor > that > > he had help from anyone in his year. That detracts from Snape's > > abilities as a potions master. > > Richard: > I don't expect you to "buy" anything. Just keep in mind as you read > that there are lots of things yet to be revealed, and some surprise > on this line shouldn't be unbelievably shocking. I'm sure that the > notes regarding potions in the text were ENTIRELY in Snape's hand, > but not sure that they were entirely from Snape's mind. I don't think I expressed myself competently. I don't buy the theory that Snape HAD to have help in order to write those shortcuts and spells. In other words, I don't buy the supposition that Snape couldn't possibly have written those shortcuts and spells because he wasn't clever enough to do it by himself. I give Snape more credit than that. > We shall see (or not) as JKR completes her tale. In the mean time, just > consider the possibility that at least some of the ideas might have > come from Lily, who Snape might well have regarded as gifted enough > in potions to be tolerable ... until she fell for James. > As you said, we shall see. But I wouldn't bet a Chocolate Frog on that or anything for that matter. *wink* > > > I don't see the complaints about Tonks and Remus at all. I > think what > > > we are seeing is simply that the Potterverse is broader than > canon. > > > People continue to live lives, fall in love, fight, etc., > outside of > > > canon, and it is not necessary for canon to incorporate all of > this > > > into canon. To me, this demonstrates a rather richer > imagination on > > > the part of JKR than many an author, and is to her credit, > especially > > > as she is often able to use "off canon" to build plot that is > > > subsequently canonized. > > > > > I also think it would have detracted from the Harry plot if Rowling > > delved into the Tonks Remus relationship more. Let's face it, > Harry is > > in school. He has limited contact with Tonks and Remus during the > > school year---why would we need to cut away to a dinner date with > > Tonks and Remus? This is Harry Potter not "The O.C." > > Richard: > Never having watched "The O.C.," I'm not sure what you are talking > about. I only know enough about it to know that I would probably > become physically ill if forced to watch it. And that's all you have to know about "The O.C.", Richard, to be glad Rowling didn't bring us along on a Remus-Tonks date. lol Milz From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Thu Jul 21 12:43:27 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:43:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507210843492.SM00956@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133811 > OK, so could someone make some sense of this for me? > > When Draco is explaining the use of the Vanishing Cabinet in > HBP, he talks about how his classmate Montague got stuck in > it, heard snatches of sounds from both Hogwarts and Borgin > and Burke's, and eventually had to Apparate to get out of the > cabinet, nearly dying in the process. (Though whether his > death would have resulted from incompetent Apparition or just > from starving in the cabinet, I'm not > sure.) > > Now, as Hermione well knows, you can't apparate in Hogwarts > except during the one scene where they relaxed that rule so > that the students could practice in the Great Hall. So > clearly Montague must have Apparated out into Borgin and Burkes. > > But I went back and checked this plot point on OotP, because > I was curious about whether Rowling had foreshadowed it > without my noticing. According to OotP, Montague was pushed > into the cabinet by Fred and George, and turned up several > days later stuck in a toilet at Hogwarts. > > Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and > then in his near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a > toilet, and pretended not to remember how he got there--just > to conceal the passage to Borgin's? This seems overly > elaborate to me and makes me wonder whether this is a Flint. > > Kelly L. Vivamus: I assume that when he was in the Vanishing Cabinet, he wasn't actually IN Hogwarts, so the anti-apparation spell wouldn't have applied. He could apparate out of the cabinet. Since he wasn't actually OUTSIDE Hogwarts, either, he could in fact apparate from inside the vanished cabinet to inside Hogwarts, bypassing the protection. This is supported by the link made between the two cabinets once the one that Peeves smashed was repaired. So he apparated out of the cabinet into the toilet, where he got stuck and nearly died (drowned?). From spherissa at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 12:29:57 2005 From: spherissa at gmail.com (Amanda Coleman) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:59:57 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <00ce01c58d77$25e69420$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <00ce01c58d77$25e69420$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <8c20328105072105291951efcd@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133812 Sherry: > > If Snape is evil, as I now wholeheartedly believe, then Harry's > distrust of him in all previous books will be proved to be > correct, an instinct we should all have trusted before now. > Wouldn't that be a kick? It turns out that Harry's gut instinct > was right all along, and not Dumbledore's? Spherissa now: I found it interesting that Harry trusted the Half Blodd Prince so much when he didn't know it was Snape. To the point of defending him and his spells to Hermione. So I think his instincts towards Snape are muddled by his intellect and by early impressions. But then i am an unabashed Snape fan -- I think he's on the side of the good, but even if he isn't I will still consider him a corageous and interesting character. Rissa From rtb333 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 12:58:57 2005 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:58:57 -0000 Subject: Ron & Hermione's Early Secrets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queencrem" wrote: > Adam Corbett wrote: > > When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, Ron & Hermione have > > obviously been discussing his situation, but seem much more > > reluctant to talk to him than they have in the past. Has > > anyone picked up on what they could be referring to? When > > they're talking about him being 'off with Dumbledore', Ron > > starts to say what he and Hermione thought might've been > > going on, but she stops him. And they're pretty weird with > > him for quite some time (even with not believing him about Snip Rob Now: I think that that was just a cover They may have thought that Harry was the Chosen One, but I think that they were apprehensive because of what is hinted at in the first chapter by Fudge. The attacks were made because DD would not turn Harry over to VT. Ron and Hermione were worried that DD finally gave in to prevent further attacks. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 13:28:41 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:28:41 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133814 Doddie wrote: I am absolutely livid with Snape but not for Killing Dumbledore..but for telling Voldemort about the prophecy! Sheesh look at what Snapes actions started! Murder of the Potters, torture of the Longbottoms!! And then he has the nerve to be snide and unpleasant among other things to both Harry and Neville when they are around him.(He cannot even manage cool indiference!) As brave as Neville is I find it very telling that the boggart turned into prof. Snape for Neville!!! DD will have his reasons for trusting Snape...DD made his choice!!! Harry and Neville not much of a reason at all to trust Snape. And I also think that the clue to occlumency is not to clear one's mind of emotion...but to focus on an emotion..(the only time it appeared to be effective for Harry...and it appears Snape is ALWAYS angry!). Much of Snapes behavior in HBP may be able to be explained/reasoned away...but not his treatment of Harry, and not his treatment of Neville and not even his continued loathing of James in the previous five books...Snape did, after all, have a hand in James death and he owed James a life debt no less!!!!! I don't care how much you've been bullied-seems to me James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin had plenty of punishment for their behavior. (remember the detention records Harry had to recopy?) I do not know if there's anything Snape could do that would redeem him enough to get out of the black and be more of a grey character for me. Doddie --who completely understands why Harry loathes Snape and hopes Snape gets what he deserves in the end! vmonte: No Doddie you are not the only one who feels this way. :) Snape has treated the children miserably since day one. I can't imagine that she will make Snape the hero at the end of the book. What would be the point of this? Snape is abusive and horrible. It would be like saying to children: "Just shut up and take it! What do you know?!" JKR had a teacher like this and she hated him. We have all had at least one teacher like this (at least I did). I wish that I could write a story were I would get to make this person look like a fool over and over again. The only time I saw Snape get impressed with Harry was in HBP, when Harry used (unknowingly) the unforgivable curse against Draco. Snape says something like: "I underestimated you." This is what Snape finds impressive? The ability for someone to be able to use this type of curse on someone? Notice that when Snape later realizes that Harry is not capable of using an unforgivable curse against him (when Snape flees the castle with Draco) he begins to mock him. He says something like: 'You don't have it in you, you've got to mean it!' Snape sees this as Harry's weakness. I don't. Vivian From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 13:31:56 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:56 -0000 Subject: Quidditch: Analysis was correct! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133815 Someone recently wrote an analysis of JKR's treatment of Quidditch (or maybe it wasn't recently but I read it in one of the Recommended post databases), in which they theorize that JKR really hates writing Quidditch matches, and so frequently comes up with excuses for having Harry miss the games. Turns out they were right! >From the Mugglenet interview, part 2: "To be honest with you, Quidditch matches have been the bane of my life in the Harry Potter books. They are necessary in that people expect Harry to play Quidditch, but there is a limit to how many ways you can have them play Quidditch together and for something new to happen." (She also informs us that Peter was "a better wizard than [his friends] knew" which explains why he was able to AK Cedric.) - davenclaw From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 13:41:24 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:41:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c58df9$e39bf870$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133816 Del replies: I completely agree. If it turns out that Snape was indeed always evil, never on the side of good, and that DD was a fool for giving him a second chance, then I'll be severely disappointed. The ONE reason Snape is of ANY interest to me is that he is a horrible person working for the side of Good. If it turns out that he was always horrible, then he's simply BO-O-O-O-RING!!! I would also be very disappointed to have Sirius be right when he said (paraphrase) : "some spots don't come off", and DD be wrong for giving people second chances. I would hate for one conclusion of the series to be that some people don't deserve second chances, that people who are "too evil" (definition of that left to your own taste) simply can't change and repent. It would smack of predestination way too much for my taste. But then, some other things in the Potterverse also smack of predestination, so I wouldn't be overly surprised if that particular conclusion was reached and if it turned out that Snape was indeed always evil. Sherry now: I'm firmly convinced that Snape is ESE now, since HBP. However, I'm looking for someone else to be the character who is given a second chance and turns away from evil. Draco perhaps? Everyone's focus is on Snape now, and we will be debating his motives till book seven and beyond. So, I'm wondering if that's all a way to throw us off the track. We have been supposed to consider him to be the nasty person who can still serve the good side, and maybe it will be someone else we never expected. Well, my theory hasn't risen enough to expound more, but it's where I'm starting to lean. sherry From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 13:40:17 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:40:17 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133817 Greetings all! Whenever I think of the second chapter of HBP, "Spinners End", I get the nagging feeling that JKR is playing with us. Mainly, my main concern is: what is the POINT of that chapter?? What do we learn in this chapter? 1. Snape lives in a Muggle place during the holidays. But does that matter? We learn that Snape is half-Muggle by the end of the book anyway. 2. Wormtail has been sent by LV to assist Snape. So what? 3. Bellatrix doesn't trust Snape. Interesting one, that one, but still... 4. LV ordered Draco to do something for him. Harry guessed that one without reading that chapter... 5. The Unbreakable Vow: humph, I'm *sure* JKR could have found another way to bring that one in without having to go through the huge part that's number 6: 6. Snape "really" works for LV. OK, THAT one is the one that bothers me most. Why oh WHY would JKR tell us *that* in *Chapter 2*??? Telling us that so early in the book is simply NOT LOGICAL (IMO, of course). It takes away SO MUCH from the shock of Snape killing DD. Right from Chapter 2, we know that Draco is going to be working on something big for LV, and that if he fails, Snape will have to do it. This just doesn't make sense to me. So let me summarise my questions: * Why would JKR turn people against Snape *so soon* in the book? If she had truly wanted to shock everyone with Snape killing DD, she should on the contrary have worked on making us trust Snape *more*, not less. * Why tell us *so early* in the book that Snape is up to no good?? * And why *ever* did she reveal that to US, the readers, but not to Harry?? I'm not saying that this is completely inconsistent with JKR's style, since she did use it before at the beginning of GoF, but it just doesn't feel the same to me. And finally my biggest concern: we did NOT NEED to learn what was in that chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY of the things we learn in that chapter? Why do we need to know about the tense relationship between Bella and Snape, why do we need to know about the whereabouts of Wormtail, and why do we need to know about the Unbreakable Vow? THE STORY WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST AS WELL WITHOUT CHAPTER 2. And that bothers me greatly, and it's why I do definitely think that JKR is playing with us. Del From chp2 at ne.rr.com Thu Jul 21 12:46:11 2005 From: chp2 at ne.rr.com (nocobuzz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:46:11 -0000 Subject: RAB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133818 Here's a thought: Could RAB be Regulus Black? I have gone back and read the section in OOTP that talks about Serius family tree...chapter 6, pg 111...and Serius younger brother was a DE and killed by LV or on LV's order. He wanted out and perhaps he knew about the horcrux in the cave. Could he have gotten it from the cave by himself? I can't find any reference to his middle name or middle initial. nocobuzz From plittleuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 12:46:26 2005 From: plittleuk at yahoo.co.uk (plittleuk) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:46:26 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133819 Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else (apologies if I have missed it) but the manner in which Snape reacted to Harry calling hime a coward when he was trying to escape the grounds seemed very OTT to me. Think about it - if he was really desperate to escape the scene as quickly as possible, having someone (particularly Harry) question his courage would be hardly likely to slow him down would it ? The reaction "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD...." in my eyes could be construed along the lines of 'if only you understood the things that I have done, am doing and will do for you, you would not call me a coward'. This was the biggest indicator for me that Snape is on the side of good - I found it a very odd thing to make a point of taking Harry to task on at such a time when he had to get away. plittleuk From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 12:54:43 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:54:43 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <8c203281050721003224332de3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amanda Coleman wrote: And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant capacity to love. Hello, First post here! I have a bit of a problem with this theory -- Albus Dumbledore, tragic hero and his fatal flaw is his abundant capacity to love? Over and over again, throughout the series, JKR (thru DD) emphasies the power of love, its "ancient" magical qualities and how LV underestimates it time and time again. In fact, it was Harry's "ability to feel love" that saves him at the end of OoTP. There is very little separating Harry and LV. Similar backgrounds, etc. But juxtapose the young Tom Riddle (in the pensieve memory) to the eleven year old Harry we meet in book 1. What is the difference? LOVE! I cannot, for one moment, consider that JKR would allow DD be the fool for his ability to love. She does not wish to send the message that love was DD's downfall. How could she? And finally, even McGonagall says, regarding Tonks and Lupin, that DD would be glad that there was a little more love in the world. (Doubt he would have been pleased with Harry's so-called noble act of breaking up with Ginny either...) Anyhoo, I come down on the side of Snape not being evil. Think that this was worked out between the two and fully understood. Of course, I could be wrong, and if I am, then I think the whole series has taken a wrong turn...revealing so much so early and making it so obvious as to be laughable. Not to mention that she's just debunked all the times she's emphasized the power of love. Book 7 should be a real treat... I think not! It just doesn't make sense that Snape is evil in the sense of betraying DD. However, leading the readers and Harry to believe it...well, that could pack a wollop in book 7! Marisa From kathrin.p at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 13:13:40 2005 From: kathrin.p at gmail.com (Kathrin P) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:13:40 +0200 Subject: HBP - all comments to other messages in one Message-ID: <4e2ac800507210613a68ed98@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133821 First off I have to say that I really, really tried to read all the messages, but it was simply impossible to do just this! So I ended up skinning most posts, because I was already so far behind with my whole delivery troubles. Jospehine wrote: if Snape is still on DD's side, what does Harry have to gain from his allegience? Kathrin now: I'm positive Snape will be around in book 7 and I also think he might be there for a good reason. After all, all we know it that both Voldy AND Snape are skilled in occlumency, right? But do we know whether their skills are equally developed/trained? What if Snape is better in occlumency and legitimacy and left Hogwarts with Draco and the other DEs after 'killing' DD so that he can try to find out more about the Horcruxes? Maybe he will come back after he gathered the information necessary and helps Harry destroy them and fight Voldy - I think with all his skills he would be the perfect person to help Harry with the showdown, the final battle? Amanda said: Additionally, the theory that I've been reading a lot on the boards is that the book was actually Snape's mother's book when she was at Hogwarts Kathrin again: I thought we were told that it was proven that the hand written spells were Snape's? I don't remember exactly where (again due to the fact that I don't know the book well enough yet to find everything I need to quote), but if my memory doesn't betray me it was said in this very book that the hand writing was Snape's for sure. So there's no chance it was his mother who invented the spells in Harry's Advanced Potions book. pdoshi72 asked: What if JKR makes Harry the DADA teacher next year? Kathrin's answer: Sorry, but I don't think so, what does he know about DADA? He had troubles with the "how to fight Dementors best"(again, I couldn't find the exact page, but I think it must be somewhere in Chapter 9), right? And, if I remember correctly, JKR also stated that Harry would never be a teacher. In an interview (see also message 132993): One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. Kathrin again (, and again, and again ;-) ): I no longer think of this as a horrible idea. I think there is someone who could love Snape, I think he even deserves this. There seems to be some bad experiences in his past that made him the person he now is - no need to judge him without remembering this, I think? Jazmyn about Snape's kill-and-leave behavior: No final villain speech, no good-byes, no gloating.. Just an AK to the heart and out the door. Kathrin's thoughts: I agree - it all went too smooth without the typical ?I'm an evil person' talk?There must be something we don't know (yet)! By the way, your mentioning the AK made me wonder: What happens, when an AK is not wanted, yet spoken? Do we know? Kjirstem wrote: - She's in the habit of strolling the Room of Req't corridor - She's ineffective in the battle below the Astronomy tower Many of these are explained away by 1) her sorrow over Sirius' death and 2) depression due to Lupin's rejection of her. However, that doesn't explain the last two points on the list Kathrin now: Maybe Tonks wanted a break from grieving (over Lupin not loving her or wanting to be with her) and going to a safe place? After all, the Room of Recreation would have been the best place to do so, wouldn't it? And we only know from her that she was supposed to guard Hogwarts at the times she strolled the corridor near the RoR, right? So maybe she was there in her time off duty and wanted to sneak into the room unseen? Kathrin (who is still rolling on the floor laughing whenever she thinks of the garden dnome dressed as a christmas angel *g*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jul 21 13:54:14 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:54:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721135414.34100.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133822 --- delwynmarch wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: we did NOT NEED to > learn what was in > that chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY of the > things we learn in > that chapter? Why do we need to know about the tense > relationship > between Bella and Snape, why do we need to know > about the whereabouts > of Wormtail, and why do we need to know about the > Unbreakable Vow? > > THE STORY WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST AS WELL WITHOUT > CHAPTER 2. > > And that bothers me greatly, and it's why I do > definitely think that > JKR is playing with us. Judging by her interview, she will enjoy greatly all the Snape theories we'll come up with. She didn't squash them, she likes to toy with us. I think this chapter serves as a fuel for these theories - it demonstrates that Snape is not fully trusted by fellow DEs. Too-clever-by-half fans (that's us) will use it as a basis for "see? he needed something very bangy to get closer to Voldemort" theories. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 13:20:10 2005 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:20:10 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133823 HogwartsMom > Yeah, I wondered why not conjur 10 goblets and fill them, but not > empty them. Set them on the ground. Would the basin know you > weren't drinking them? Another question about this - how did the liquid get back in the basin after the first customer drank it and removed the first locket? lucinda428 From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 13:32:49 2005 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:32:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133824 I apologise: I can't find the exact quote again, but I remember when reading it that Dumbledore stressed to Harry at one point that, as large of brain as he is, he can make equally large mistakes. He points to the difference between the actual memories and the conjectures he's making about them. IMO this is Rowling telling us that at least one of his critical conjectures is wrong. It might be useful to speculate on which one. Can I kick off and suggest that Voldemort didn't go to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry, but to make him a Horcrux? (He's very arrogant: if the baby has the power to vanquish him, he might decide to harness rather than destroy him. Remember he hasn't heard that neither can live while the other survives.) That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was only ever to be a Horcrux spell. It has been pointed out that this spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use the wand of the person you killed? Whether you agree with that or not, the key point I'd like to highlight for debate is, at least one of Dumbledore's assumptions is wrong: which one? lucinda428 From JodyE50 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 13:29:55 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:29:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 Message-ID: <13d.179b63ee.3010fd53@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133825 The one thing that I was hoping would bring Harry, Ron and Hermione back to Hogwarts, at least temporarily, is the fact that they don't have their license to Apparate yet. Ron failed his (conveniently for this storyline) and Hermione and Harry were not yet of age in time for the first test. They will really need to Apparate to get around on their quest. Brooms will take too long and be too obvious. If they try to Apparate without licenses, they will be brought to the attention of the MoM, which I'm sure they don't want. Look how quickly Harry is always caught when he does magic outside of Hogwarts. As for teaching, I can't imagine Hogwarts hiring an unqualified student for an important position like DaDa. I'm sure there are rules and regulation which even Macgonigle can't get around. I, for one, would really miss Hogwarts. For me, that school and its traditions, ghosts, etc., are as important a "character" as any of the people. Besides, how will The Weasleys and Graingers react to their kids leaving school? Oddly enough, I imagine the Weasleys would be the more understanding, since they, at least, realize what is at stake. But I can imagine the Grainers being horrified that Hermione would even consider dropping out of School in her senior year. So, I do hope that Harry and crew will return to Hogwarts in some capacity in Book 7. Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 13:23:28 2005 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:23:28 -0000 Subject: Horcrux #1 Destroyed: Diary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133826 Cindy: > COS pg 310 > "I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful > enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start > pouring a little of my soul back into her..." What interests me more about your quote is "pouring a little of my soul back into her". Note that Harry and Ginny both suffer far worse than other people at the onset of the Dementors. It is now very possible that that's because they are both in some way Horcruxes. Dementors suck your soul out - so when Voldemort's soul senses a Dementor it has a spak attack inside Harry and Ginny. It also means that if the power of love is a strong force against Voldemort and his mutilated soul, the fact that Harry and Ginny love each other is going to be very powerful. (OTOH, they'd better not have a kid before this is resolved!) lucinda428 From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:11:17 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:11:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > I'm along with those who believe that Dumbledore asked Severus Snape > to kill him, as some sort of pre-agreement (along the lines of those > he made with Harry). However, I believe that there is more than one > reason for the request. > > The first is that Dumbledore is weakened, and that he must 'take > himself out' before anything further can happen. In addition, > perhaps in his portrait he has full use of his faculties and can > serve better in this form. Just a thought. > > The second is that he has to protect Draco Malfoy. He knows that > Draco can't kill him, and was just going through the motions > throughout the school year so that Voldemort won't hurt his family. > However, with the Death Eaters there in the end, Dumbledore knows > that Draco will be pushed to do what he has been requested to do. > So, Dumbledore has Snape do it, so that Draco will not have to do > the terrible deed. This will not only save Draco's (mental, and > perhaps physical) life, but also perhaps help him see where his > allegiances should lie in future battles and scenarios. > > All right everyone: dissect, and discuss! Isn't this fun? > > --Penny I've read a lot of people who think Snape and DD planned this. But I completely disagree that DD knew this would happen now. I do think he knew that Draco had his mission. And I think he knows that Snape had the unbreakable vow. But do we really know what Draco's mission was? I mean, was it, "Kill DD by the end of the school year?" Because if not, then DD could have been planning for this to happen ten years from now. And Snape still wouldn't have broken his vow. I keep going back to SS/PS and Dumbledore saying that "to the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." And there is no doubt that even though DD makes mistakes, is human, and when he makes a great mistake it's a humdinger- he's definitely got a well orgainzed mind. And this was just too messy. I mean, think about it. McGonagal doesn't know what is going on with Harry. In fact, no one from the Order knows. DD would have wanted SOMEONE to be there to make sure Harry had all of the tools he needs to do what he needs to do. Was Dobby taken care of? I know this is minor, but Dobby gets paid, is the continuation of his being paid laid out in a contract with Hogwarts somewhere? OK- way too minor of a point. But Trelawney- she has to remain protected. Period. Only Harry and DD know the full extent of the danger she's in. DD would have known of McGonagal's comtempt of Divination, and that McGonagal might stop that class. I guess that in Book Seven, we'll know, because if his death was planned, DD would have made provisions for all of these things, and many others also. (Hagrid, the continuation of the school at all, etc.) I'm just still falling on the side that says that Snape's loyalty is not to DD. I think DD DID trust Snape completely. And I also think that since it was Riddle (LV) who cursed the DADA job, maybe DD thought that he might get to keep a DADA teacher for more than one year if it's someone LV wants to remain close to DD. I mean, maybe Snape got the job simply because DD was sick of trying to find someone to take the job. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:13:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:13:49 -0000 Subject: Love and Trust: LV vs DD (was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133828 Spherissa wrote: "And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant capacity to love." Marisa replied (I snipped): "Over and over again, throughout the series, JKR (thru DD) emphasies the power of love, its "ancient" magical qualities and how LV underestimates it time and time again. In fact, it was Harry's "ability to feel love" that saves him at the end of OoTP. I cannot, for one moment, consider that JKR would allow DD be the fool for his ability to love. She does not wish to send the message that love was DD's downfall. How could she?" Del concurs: I completely agree. Several times through the series, JKR made the point that Love is an extremely powerful force, more powerful than most (any?) other forms of magic. In OoP, she emphasized that point again, by making Love the One Force that can drive LV away, and by having DD explain to Harry that Harry's ability to love is his greatest strength, while LV's inability to love is his greatest weakness. And finally in HBP, JKR reinforces once again the importance of love, and she also points out that LV doesn't trust anybody. So basically, throughout the series, she made love and trust the characteristics and strengths of the Good People, and the absence of love and trust the characteristics and weaknesses of the Bad People. And now, just because Snape killed DD *for reasons unknown to us*, we are supposed to believe that DD's abilities to love and trust were his *weaknesses*?? I don't think so. But obviously that's just my opinion :-) Del From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 21 14:14:36 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:14:36 -0000 Subject: Am I the Only One? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133829 > So given this, why would Dumbledore have finally broken down this > year and given the position to Snape? He would have known that Snape > could only do it for one year. Why would snape want the job? He's > smart enough to have figured out the curse... If LV hadn't told him > about it already. > > And, what does this say about Snape? If this year runs true to > pattern, Snape's true nature was revealed when he killed Dumbledore, > and he has a very bad fate waiting for him. > > Janeway or it could be that Snape's true nature is loyal to DD and the OotP and that will be revealed in book 7. Why else would DD trust him so much? I don't think that Snape's confession about the prophecy is the reason why DD trusts him. Sure enough, Snape is a nasty, bitter guy, but that doesn't mean he isn't batting for the right team. I'm sure these points have come up before, but I will state them again: 1. Hagrid recounts to Harry hearing an argument between Snape and Dumbledore regarding Snape attempting to back out of something he's agreed to, with Dumbledore vehemently insisting that he goes through with whatever it is - It seems as if Snape and Dumbledore are both on the same page as to what will happen later in the evening, with Snape being completely unwilling to kill the only man that's ever trusted him even if it is for the greater good. 2. As was mentioned earlier by a number of posters, JKR describes the emotions felt by Harry, while making Dumbledore drink the green liquid, and Snape, while performing the AK, almost identically, which draws direct parallels to their situations - Although Moody explained that the AK needs to be performed with hate in one's heart, it seems that the type of hate Snape possesses is a similar self-loathing that Harry experienced while force-feeding Dumbledore the potion. 3. Harry attempts on a number of occasions to kill Snape, but Snape simply repels his attacks and doesn't attempt to retaliate - Snape clearly is sparing Harry at this point. 4. Snape absolutely flips out when Harry calls him a coward - It seems as if Snape has undertaken a task so great that even the mere suggestion of cowardice is enough to set him off, as Harry is truly ignorant of the breadth of Snape's circumstances. 5. Snape's final words to Harry are that he'll keep being blocked until he "learns to shut his mouth and block out his mind". He says this before immobilizing Harry towards the castle and preventing Harry from being attacked by other DEs, as Snape claims that Voldemort has called dibs on him - Harry's immense dislike for Snape might cause him to believe that Snape's last words are mere taunts, but they seem to be the key to Harry improving his Occulemency and could very well be foreshadowing the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort. As for not allowing Harry to be killed by the DEs, Snape seems once again to be protecting Harry, rather than actually saving him for the Dark Lord. I think both Snape and Draco will be redeemed by series' end. Also, Rowling's interview on mugglenet is interesting.. She has no problems branding Umbridge as evil, but, as expected, dodges the question with Snape. colebiancardi From flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:00:02 2005 From: flyingmybroomstick at yahoo.com (Samantha Thomas) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore: Harry Potter :: Obi-Wan: Luke Skywalker Message-ID: <20050721140002.86219.qmail@web50510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133830 Hey guys, I mostly lurk here but do post occasionally. I just was wanting to bring to light something my boyfriend said about a week ago (before the book was out). He was saying that he imagined DD would pull an Obi-Wan for Harry and let Harry watch him die at the hand of the DEs/LV, therefore making it even more personal and awful for him. His parents died at the hands of LV, but somehow DD dying at his bidding seems more awful, IMO. It makes it more real because he's seen it firsthand. And this is very different than Sirius' death. Sirius was a relatively new character, and Harry did look up to him as a father figure. But I think the major difference here is the body. Harry could see and touch and feel that DD was dead. The same can't be said for Sirius. He simply fell away, and it almost had the feeling of a good friend who goes on vacation and stops calling you. But Obi-Wan wanted Vader to kill him, saying he would become more powerful than Vader could ever imagine. Of course, if this were a true parallel, this would have to mean that Snape didn't kill DD at DD's orders, as many think. I would also like to think this. And not for Snape's sake, but for DD's sake. I just expected something more grande for DD's big exit (which everyone knew was coming). I expected a few last notes of instruction to Harry as he inhaled his dying breaths. But if DD had died in that cave at the beach, would we have blamed Harry as we are blaming Snape? We are always told to look at the big picture. And, HBP being the most straightforward of the series, I think JKR laid everything out for book 7 just a little too perfectly. That's totally not her style. There has to be a twist. Just a few thoughts, Samantha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:18:18 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:18:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133831 That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give > her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was > only ever to be a Horcrux spell. It has been pointed out that this > spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used > James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use > the wand of the person you killed? > > Whether you agree with that or not, the key point I'd like to > highlight for debate is, at least one of Dumbledore's assumptions is > wrong: which one? > > > lucinda428 I still don't think Harry was the Horcrux. I think LV had those things in place long before he ever even heard about a prophecy. It isn't like him to not get those seven things set up as quickly as he could. In fact, probably before he got the height of his power. It just doesn't seem like he would sit around saying, "Well, I've got six, but I want to wait until I have something really, really good for the seventh." He is power hungry and terrified of death. He would do what he can to make sure he wouldn't die, and he'd do that as quickly as he possibly could. I do think that one of DD's theories or assumptions was wrong. And that incorrect assumption is that Snape is on the side of the good. And what was the cost? DD's life. Before DD has the chance to train Harry fully, before DD has the chance to get everything ready for his death. And that's a really high price, actually. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 21 14:23:29 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:23:29 -0000 Subject: Decent Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jemnilla28" wrote: > It looks like JKR certainly is showing a different side to Slytherin > through Slughorn. While he's ambitious and somewhat shallow, he > certainly doesn't seem evil. Also, while Blaise Zabini seemed somewhat > hostile to Harry and his friends, it didn't seem like he was > necessarily in Malfoy's "Junior Death Eaters" gang. Marianne: I agree completely on Slughorn, but Blaise Zabini didn't strike me as someone who is going to raise the banner for "the good Slytherin." Maybe he's not a Jr. DE, but he shows all of the "typical" Slytherin, pre-DE bigotry: p. 150, HBP, US edition "Precious Potter..."sneered Malfoy, "but that Weasley girl! What's so special about her?" ... "I wouldn't touch a filthy little blood traitor like her whatever she looked like," said Zabini coldly. jemnilla28: Let's also not > forget that Crabbe and Goyle, as stupid as they are, are no longer in > Draco's shadow so they could possibly be persuaded to join the good > side (or at least not be Death Eaters themselves). Between all of this, > maybe we can finally see a uniting of the houses! Marianne: But C and G took orders from Draco all through HBP, even consenting to be Polyjiuced into girls. Draco still seemed to keep his hold on them. Maybe in Book 7 they'll be somewhat adrift with Draco gone, but I can't see them suddenly being swept up into a fervor of house unity. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 14:29:49 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:29:49 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133833 Del wrote: > Greetings all! > > Whenever I think of the second chapter of HBP, "Spinners End", I get > the nagging feeling that JKR is playing with us. Mainly, my main > concern is: what is the POINT of that chapter?? >Telling > us that so early in the book is simply NOT LOGICAL (IMO, of course). > It takes away SO MUCH from the shock of Snape killing DD. Right from > Chapter 2, we know that Draco is going to be working on something big > for LV, and that if he fails, Snape will have to do it. This just > doesn't make sense to me. > THE STORY WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST AS WELL WITHOUT CHAPTER 2. > > And that bothers me greatly, and it's why I do definitely think that JKR is playing with us. Hannah: Oh, JKR is always playing with us! As to what purpose the chapter served, it gave us an insight into why Snape was allowed back into the fold of Death Eaters, something many had wondered. Indeed, not all fans were even convinced that he had returned to spy - there has been no unbiased canon evidence of that up to now. This is information that would have been hard come by realistically in Harry's POV. Plus the chapter gave us our first ever look at Snape from a point of view that isn't Harry's. It was an interesting departure from the canon norm. It told us where Wormtail was, and introduced us to Narcissa and to a more rounded picture of Bella. It gave an insight into Death Eater dynamics. And weren't you just desperate to know from then on what 'the plan' was? Another interesting thing revealed here was Snape's position as LV's 'favourite, his most trusted advisor.' This too would be hard to come by anywhere else via Harry. Finally, any and all of the information given in that scene could be significant in book 7. Remember, books 6 and 7 are like two parts of the same book. I don't think it gave away that Snape would kill DD, at least it didn't to me, expect maybe right at the very end when he burst in through the door, at which point it's almost done. We know Draco is working on something big and that Snape has sworn to try and help, but we don't know what the something is or that Snape is actually going to be able to help him. Then later on we see that Draco isn't cooperating with Snape anyway. The other purpose is to tell us as readers that Harry isn't just being paranoid, otherwise I probably would have suspected that. It adds to our frustration as people brush aside Harry's concerns about Draco and about Snape. I suppose the chapter also adds to the argument that Snape isn't evil - though I guess it could also be used to argue that he is. It's just another bit of evidence about Snape for us to use, and it tells us that he's going to be important in the story. Hannah From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:47:42 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:47:42 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133834 lucinda428: > > Whether you agree with that or not, the key point I'd like to > > highlight for debate is, at least one of Dumbledore's assumptions > > is wrong: which one? > > Valky: Big ask that lucinda, but definitely worth thinking about. The first thing that comes to mind is that he was wrong about the Diary Horcrux nd the destruction of the soul inside it.. Yes I know it's very sad and tragic, and now everyone thinks I am so very sadistic to offhand sentence lovely little Ginny to doom, but thats it, thats the one I think it is. Having said that though, I am not actually sure that I believe it was a mistake Dumbledore didn't realise before he died, in fact sad as it seems I think he told Harry how big his mistakes were *because* he'd realised that he didn't save Ginny when he might have had a real chance to. Really really massive mistake, don't you think? From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Thu Jul 21 14:50:35 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:50:35 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133835 IMO Snape reacts so furiously to being called 'coward' because he secretly believes it's true and despises himself for it. But of course it isn't. Which ever side SS proves to be on the one thing he is *not* is a coward. Either way he is taking an enormous risk as a double agent. As I have said before, for sheer cold courage Snape is in a class by himself - possibly only matched by Dumbledore. From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:02:21 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:02:21 -0000 Subject: My wildest theory and biggest dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "famoustish" wrote: > I found it strange that Wormtail was a near servent to Snape. mgm: Ok, maybe conspicuous. It shows that LV passed his servant on, meaning that Snape is valuable enough to LV to have his own servant. > I found > it quite a coincidence that Wormtail has no right hand mgm: You realize that he lost this as a sacrifice to LV at the end of GoF during the spell that restored LV's body. LV replaced his hand with the silvery one. > and it was DD's right hand that was burned and dead looking. mgm: ??? maybe DD is right wanded... > Am I alone in this thought? mgm: I just don't see a coincidence here. I think Wormtail is in a place to spy on Snape for the Order to redeem himself, or spy on Snape for LV to gain LV's attention back. I think Wormtail has learned his lesson about dealing with LV and is more likely to try to go to the Order if he could do it undetected. Doing so would add fuel to the ESE!Snape theory throughout book 7 so that when it's revealed that he's really good!Snape, it's more of a bang. Somewhere else someone asked why DD would ever wear the destroyed Horcrux. I think it was just to interest Sluggy - perhaps even to say, "look, a destroyed horcrux. Would you just give me the memory now?" More likely he was just showing Slughorn a Slytherin artifact to break the ice. -mgm From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:11:25 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:11:25 -0000 Subject: not liking book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133837 Lebowjessica wrote: >I almost feel bad in saying this but I was extremely disappointed in >HBP. . . .I am looking forward to book 7 as I hope that JKR returns >to the styling of the first four books, as I think they were >wonderful, I cannot imagine the amount of pressure she feels to >write, and I do think she is a wonderful story teller. >I am just wondering if anyone feels the same way that I do. Well, I for one think that Book 5 and now 6 are my favorites, but my three kids (14, 12, and 10) have all had difficulty understanding things in the last two, and haven't even finished them on their own. (We do listen to the CD's in the car constantly - I'm more of a fanatic than they are!!!). So I hope Book 7 is a mixture of her "two styles" - and finally answers all the questions but is still complex and funny enough so that you have to read it again and again!!! Amy From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:16:33 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:16:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133838 > zoe0coll wrote: > > Just wondered if any of you have actually been 16/17! Or have > > you just forgotten! > > > > I just feel JKR is writing with a knowledge or rememberance of what > > it's like to be that age and I felt transported back to my teenage > > years and felt like I was right there with them. > mgm: > I was having a similar reaction to many of the comments that I saw. > I'm 28 now, but only stopped being a teenager a year or two ago. ;) I meant to add that, like zoe, HBP powerfully transported me back to my teenage years and the discovery of romanctic love and physical intimacy. I wasn't always at my most honorable and true-to-character in those years. Similarly, I think it's youth that has our favorite characters acting in ways we don't want to see them. If you can rationalize OotP's whiny Anikin Harry as an adolescent phase he was going through, it seems that it's even easier to believe the events of HBP. Though certain pairings and behavior might have annoyed me, the shipping aspects o the book thoroughly reminded me of life as a teenager. -mgm From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:20:35 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:20:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lucinda428" wrote: > That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give > her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was > only ever to be a Horcrux spell. It has been pointed out that this > spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used > James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use > the wand of the person you killed? You make an interesting point here. Hope Harry is NOT a horcrux, but sadly the thought has crossed my mind. However, in GOF, during the priori incantem -- the spells the wand has preformed come back out: Cedric, the old guy, Bertha Jorkins, Lilly, and James. Right? What about the spell performed on Harry (which was supposedly AK)? Granted, he didn't die, but shouldn't a trace of this spell come back up? OOOOH, will have to go back and re-read that part in GOF. Thanks for the mind-bender. Marisa From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 15:07:40 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:07:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: <20050721071928.30525.qmail@web33214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050721071928.30525.qmail@web33214.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133840 sally sheehy wrote: > Interesting...perhaps in a last ditch effort to save baby Harry, Lily used Harry as her own horcrux to enact some powerful charm (as she was ever so proficient in charms) to deflect Voldemort attact. In doing this, in storing part of her soul in Harry, Harry now has his mothers eyes. > But who did Lily kill? HBP established the basis that the creation of horcrux is possibly only via an act of great evil, interpreted as murder by Slughorn. I read that as meaning not just the act of killing someone but the act of killing someone in cold blood, possibly for the sole creation of the horcrux. Therefore, I can't buy into the theories that anyone on the side of good (Lily or otherwise) has a horcrux just lying around somewhere. ~Ali From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:22:11 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:22:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's handwriting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133841 smilinggator wrote: >One thing that has stuck out in my mind is the description of >Dumbledore's handwriting as "thin" and "slanting". In PS/SS, his >handwriting in the note he wrote to Harry when he gave him his >father's invisibility cloak was "loopy" and "narrow". If you compare >the handwriting, the only thing that is the same is DD's signature >in HBP and the handwriting of the note in PS/SS. >Maybe I am just being picky here, but then I came across Hagrid's >handwriting in HBP, when he wrote to tell the kids of Aragog's >death. >It looked exactly the same as it had in POA when he wrote about >Buckbeak's impending execution and in PS/SS when he invited Harry >over >for afternoon tea. So, why has DD's handwriting changed? Good point! I was taking a course in handwriting analysis this summer and my teacher actually pointed out how JKR used handwriting in her books to sublty point out things - supposedly over in Europe handwriting analysis is a big thing. My teacher pointed out Percy's signature in one of the books (can't remember which) and supposedly his hooked Y can only mean one thing - that he is destined to be either a criminal or simply evil. (interesting - very interesting!) But I noticed Dumbledore's changed handwriting too. We'll have to wait and see! Amy From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:09:37 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POA/HPB connection and a couple of comments on Draco and Myrtle :) In-Reply-To: <4e2ac800507210613a68ed98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050721150937.10408.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133842 I know before the book came out we were looking for connections between Chamber and Pure blood prince and while this may very well be true in that we learn the other part of Voldemort's history I do want to play privy to some major facts that to me make HPB much closer to POA than to Chamber. 1. They both include another character in the title other than Harry (and are the only books to do so). 2. They both are the only books that aren't going to include a confronatation with Voldemort. 3. They both include characters that are perhaps misunderstood. Snape if he he was acting on Dumbledore's wishes is likely to be condemed for a crime that he truly did not commit (while he did commit it...it was not an act of evilness. This is why I can't imagine that Snape is evil..I just can't. The only other character that Jo has named a book after besides Harry is Sirius to me the naming of a book is an honor rewarded them a higher purpose. Okay on to the Draco Malfoy stuff. I don't know if this has been mentioned but someone made a comment on a board that I frequent that it was interesting that Draco picked the only known surviving victim of Voldemort who still lurked the castle to visit with..to confide in. To me that just screams redemption. I would almost feel cheated if we don't get something from Malfoy now. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:26:41 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:26:41 -0000 Subject: RAB, The Cave, and the Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133843 OK. This thought actually woke me up in the middle of the night. Yes, I'm obsessive with these wonderful books! Dumbledore and Harry had trouble both fitting into the boat. DD said it had something to do with the fact that LV wouldn't be worried about the number of people, but the power of the magic involved. One powerful wizard would be ok, but two obviously wouldn't work. So . . . If it was indeed Regulus, could it be that Kreacher was the other "person" helping him obtain the locket?!? Am I on to something, please oh please?! Amy From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:30:00 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:30:00 -0000 Subject: Love and Trust: LV vs DD (was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > And now, just because Snape killed DD *for reasons unknown to us*, we > are supposed to believe that DD's abilities to love and trust were his > *weaknesses*?? > > I don't think so. > > But obviously that's just my opinion :-) I agree. Obviously, it would change the nature of the whole series and everything would have to be re-examined in light of love and trust being foolish.... Just don't see it. Just like I can't imagine Snape, when Harry calls him a coward, to have a look of pain like the dog trapped in the burning building IF he's just pulled off this major coup by killing the one wizard that Voldemort ever feared. Snape likes to taunt his "victims" (Harry, Neville, et al in Potions class). He never taunts DD on the tower and I think the case can be made that he wasn't really taunting Harry at the end there. In fact, I think he gives him some rather important advice (keep your mouth shut -- non-verbal spells -- and your mind closed -- occulemency (sp?)). One could argue that this was unintentional, but I am not buying. Think he just told Harry what he NEEDS to know to have a shot in hell at defeating Voldemort and other DE's. And, why did Snape, who's waited forever to have the DADA job, choose to spend the entire year on non-verbal spells. Geez, if I was really working for the DE's, I'd be teaching them stuff that passes for knowledge (and they've had some pretty lame-brained teachers), but would be of no practical use in battling LV and the DE's. Again, just my opinion... Marisa From joi_foley at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:32:34 2005 From: joi_foley at hotmail.com (makemeatree) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:32:34 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133845 Kelly L.: > According to OotP, Montague was pushed into the cabinet by > Fred and George, and turned up several days later stuck in a toilet > at Hogwarts. > > Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and then in > his near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a toilet, and > pretended not to remember how he got there--just to conceal the > passage to Borgin's? This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me > wonder whether this is a Flint. > Could it be possible that montague was lying about how he got out, considering the whole ordeal, with or without ending up in a toilet, was kind of embarassing? joi. From amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 14:35:42 2005 From: amythevivaciousone at yahoo.com (amythevivaciousone) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:35:42 -0000 Subject: Hands (Wormtail's, Dumbledore's, in the prophecy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133846 OK. Sorry for so many posts this morning, my mind is on warp speed . . . Does anyone think that Harry may have to literally sacrifice his right hand in order to finally kill LV in the end? Why was Harry holding a wand with his left hand on the cover of Book 6 (US version)? That's never been explained in my head. And Wormtail and Dumbledore have had to give up their right hands during this ordeal. Could, "and either must die at the hand of the other . . ." (pg 841 of Order of the Phoenix, (US edition) have anything to do with the actual giving up the right hand ???? Anyone?? Amy From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 15:18:28 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:18:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: <005301c58dd2$caebd970$640aa8c0@LHJ> References: <005301c58dd2$caebd970$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133847 Trekkie wrote: <<>> > We still have Flitwicks words about Swish and Flick - > > " Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words > properly is very important too " > > to signify that BOTH the pronounciation AND the wand movements matters. Also > again the pronounciation. I mean, something like Vingardium Leviosa is > fairly straightforward to pronounce, yet it still takes a lot of practice > apparently. Yes the kids have had 5 years by now to practice but still, I > would think a spell like Sectumsempra would need at least SOME practice. I read this portion of the book and wondered if spell-working was not similar to languages. In first year, it is important to emphasize to the kids that saying the words properly and having the right wand movement is important, much like numerous language teachers emphasizing the importance of pronunciation much more in the first year, but most people, after that first year, get instinctual ideas of how words should be pronounced. What if, like languages, after a while, people develop an instinct for what's right? After all, that would explain how people can learn spells from books, and perhaps that's how the talented amongst them can pick up spells so easily. With five years of practice, it isn't unreasonable, then, to assume that the kids have picked up the necessary instincts, especially Harry, what with his many adventures and all. ~Ali From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:20:31 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721152031.22937.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133848 HunterGreen: I think so too. While she is tricky, she's not THAT tricky. Though I have been guilty of looking too hard for secret sub-plots (ahem, ESE! Fudge), its better taken with a grain of salt, knowing that the elaborate wild explainations are not likely to be true. It reminds me of all the theories that Snape wasn't really a spy for the death- eaters (and that he wasn't the one Voldemort referenced in the graveyard), or that the mauraders weren't in Gryffindor, or the James/Lupin switching spell (I won't mention the Vampire!Snape theory, because that one had a lot of seeming clues in the text). Sure, perhaps it is true that Snape and Dumbledore put together his death and Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders and all that, but I just cannot see how that would play out in the text, especially with Dumbledore being dead. I would really like it if Snape went back to being a jerk who is fighting hard for the side of good, I liked him a lot better that way, but I have a sinking feeling that it isn't true. -Rebecca / HunterGreen My reply: You guys are forgetting this is a woman that came up with the ingenius plot of Sirius Black! So what if is carrying over to another book. The first thing I learned after reading POA is that I couldn't trust anything (and GOF as well) amd to think outside of the damn box. The theories with Snape being good isn't even that outlandish because trust me if I believe it..it can't be! I don't buy into Lupin being evil, or Snape a vampire, or James and Lupin switching (what on earth I don't even understand that one??). But I do think that Snape is good. I didn't even see it another way when I read the book. I think that what I am seeing is very bitter people upset about Dumbledores death who really want revenge. Maybe that's not you...but Rowlings world is very tricky and there haven't been hardly any plot twists in the last two books. Well, here you go this is the one. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mangochee at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:15:23 2005 From: mangochee at yahoo.com (mangochee) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:15:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133849 >lucinda428 wrote: > That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give > her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was > only ever to be a Horcrux spell. It has been pointed out that this > spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used > James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use > the wand of the person you killed? Voldemort created his first Horcrux (the diary I believe) by killing the Riddles or his uncle (I don't remember who he killed first). So, you don't need to kill a wizard to create a Horcrux, and therefore you don't need someone else's wand to create a Horcrux. I don't believe Harry or his scar is a Horcrux. That will mean that Harry will have to die in order to kill Voldemort. mangochee From kjones at telus.net Thu Jul 21 15:21:01 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:21:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DFBD5D.7030906@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 133850 delwynmarch wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: we did NOT NEED to learn what was in > that chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY of the things we learn in > that chapter? Why do we need to know about the tense relationship > between Bella and Snape, why do we need to know about the whereabouts > of Wormtail, and why do we need to know about the Unbreakable Vow? > > THE STORY WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST AS WELL WITHOUT CHAPTER 2. > > And that bothers me greatly, and it's why I do definitely think that > JKR is playing with us. delwynmarch Kathy writes: I think that this chapter sets up the story line for most of the book. It shows us a completely different side of Snape. We were given the impression that he had no social graces whatsoever. This is not the case. Perhaps it is to make us wonder why the extreme difference between the school Snape and the DE Snape. It allows us to understand that Snape is not yet in the position that Dumbledore wants him to be in. He is still suspected by the DE and apparently Voldemort is covering his bases by assigning Wormtail to watch and listen. It also lets us know that Snape would not have been accepted by Voldemort just on the basis of being a superb Occlumens. It suggests that something has been done to prevent V. from gaining access to any information. It lets us know that Snape is favoured by Voldemort and I believe that Snape does know what Draco's task is. It lets us know that he has a problem with it. It answers all the questions about whether or not Snape is still a spy, how he answered to Voldemort on his return, what Dumbledore assigned him as a task. It allows an insertion of a lie. Snape told Bella that he turned to Dumbledore "fresh from his Deatheater days." We know from prior information that he was spying for the Order prior to that time, and later in the book, we are told that it was when he understood what V meant to do with the prophecy info. This was one of my favourite chapters. KJ From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:32:06 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721153206.17525.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133851 My sincere condolences to the H/Hr shippers. I am not being sarcastic or rude, I do know what it's like to believe in something for years and have it be an illusion. Fortunately, there is so much more to the HP series than the teen romances! I just got done reading part two of JKR July 16th interview on Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. If you haven't read it yet, there are some answers there about HBP. She also lays to rest, in my opinion, some of the Tonks theories. -Casmir You know this hasn't been discussed but everyone has been talking about oh poor Harry and Hermione shippers (I am one but I never expected it to actually happen and I think that is how many of the shippers felt so we are fine). But...I do wish to express concern for the Sirius and Remus shippers. I did call that one I think the Remus/Tonks thing was the only prediction that I did actually get right. LOL ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:16:57 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:16:57 -0000 Subject: RAB, The Cave, and the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133852 Amy wrote: > Dumbledore and Harry had trouble both fitting into the boat. DD said > it had something to do with the fact that LV wouldn't be worried about > the number of people, but the power of the magic involved. One > powerful wizard would be ok, but two obviously wouldn't work. > So . . . If it was indeed Regulus, could it be that Kreacher was the > other "person" helping him obtain the locket?!? Am I on to something, > please oh please?! > Hi Amy! I heard this theory also mentioned on mugglenet and I really, really think you are on to something. Not only is it an exciting possibility, but also makes tremendous sense from a writer's standpoint. This is how JKR can explain Harry finding out exactly what happened when RAB went after the Horcrux! Also, we know that house elves have powerful magic, but LV would underestimate them as he underestimates underage wizards. Marisa From spherissa at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:30:26 2005 From: spherissa at gmail.com (Amanda Coleman) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:00:26 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Love and Trust: LV vs DD (was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c20328105072107301a4bda77@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133853 On 7/21/05, delwynmarch wrote: > Spherissa wrote: > "And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his > abundant capacity to love." > Actually, I didn't write that. I'm sorry if the attributions got confused. Spherissa-who-is-going-to-be-lazy-and-call-herself-Rissa-from-now-on From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:31:51 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:31:51 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: we did NOT NEED to learn what was in > that chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY of the things we learn in > that chapter? Why do we need to know about the tense relationship > between Bella and Snape, why do we need to know about the whereabouts > of Wormtail, and why do we need to know about the Unbreakable Vow? > > THE STORY WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST AS WELL WITHOUT CHAPTER 2. Tonks: Spinners End is my favorite chapter in the book. It tells so much. We see the interaction between the two sisters. We see Bella as someone's sister and not just this evil person. We see, to my amazement, that Narcissus is a loving mother. In spite of the implications in her name, she *does* care for someone other than herself. And we see her here for the first time in her own right. We also see something else.. We see Snape being kind and tender. Yes, he is. He is happy to see Narcissus and it appears genuine. I think that there may be more to this little tidbit. I think that Snape was in love with Narcissus and her family being the purebloods that they are, they would not have approved of Snape and Narcissus. Maybe he stayed on as a "friend of the family". That is not as unseal as it sounds. It happens. Lucius probably doesn't know about Snape's feeling toward Narcissus and he just sees them as good friends. Maybe Narcissus herself does not know the depth of Snape's feeling for her. But I will bet a years supply of Butterbeer that he cares for her very much. I think that Snape would have found some way out of that vow if he had really wanted to. I think he took it for Narcissus. Then what we see in the end is the battle between his love for Narcissus and his love for DD. Also think about the title. Spinners End. I really like the title too. We are told that it is the street on which Snape lives. As a spy it fits. He is spinning lies; he is spinning a trap, etc. And what happens in this chapter will be his end. The crafty Slytherin, looking out for himself, doing what is in his best interest, all of the things we think a true Slytherin to be and what happens he does something that will be his undoing. And he does it for love. That is my theory, I could be wrong. Maybe he is just covering his bets as a good spy, but I think that there is more to it than that. I also like this chapter because it gives us so much background on Snape. It answers so many questions that we, the readers, need to know and have been begging JKR to tell. The book would not have made as much sense without it. It also shows the human interactions between the members of the *other side*. We see their humanity. I love this chapter best of all. Course now I can not look at my screensaver (the one that shows the clasped hands entwined with a rope of fire) without bursting into tears. We needed to see this scene and understand the implications of the vow in order to truly understand Snape killing DD. Otherwise, it would have just come out of the blue and made no sense. Tonks_op Wearing black and still depressed and crying over DD. Going out to get more boxes of Kleenex. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 14:31:19 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:31:19 -0000 Subject: Wasn't Anyone Else Disappointed? / Occlumency question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133855 Richard Jones: > Maybe it's just postpartum depression after all the wait, but I > thought HBP was disappointing. It lacked the imagination of the > earlier books. > All this does not bode well for what we can expect in Book 7. I, of > course, still look forward to Book 7, but not with the excitement I > had anticipated before reading HBP. I'll reread it next month and > maybe my opinion will change. > Hey Richard, I have to half agree with you. I say half because although I did have some disappointment with this book (which I will go into later) I still absolutely thoroughly enjoyed reading it. There were a number of things which made me laugh (the wine glasses hitting the Dursleys over the head for one; Luna Lovegood's commentary another, plus many more) and it was good to get more background info on LV. But some things I felt JK Rowling didn't make the most of. Rufus Scrimgeour - what was the point of introducing him? From the initial discription of his appearance it seemed that he might deliver where Fudge had failed. Yet apart from two attempts to persuade Harry to support the Ministry, nothing else involving him occurred. Seems a waste of a potentially interesting character. Being a former auror he surely would have been far more active in fighting LV and the DEs? Oh well, maybe he plays a bigger part in book 7. And after all the intrigue around Draco Malfoy's secret mission and the identity of the Half-blood prince, it lacked the final clever plot twists that were so grippingly good in the earlier books. One thing that really didn't make sense to me was how come after LV discovered at the end of book 5 that Harry was linked to his mind through his scar,LV didn't continue to take advantage of this? Harry didn't manage to learn Occlumency very well so was still vulnerable. So why didn't LV continue to attempt to use this or trick Harry again via the power of the mind? And how come Harry's scar didn't hurt any more? I was a bit disappointed that LV didn't even make an appearance in HBP (apart from all the memories in the pensieve that is. Also, we didn't get to find out any more about Neville's mother and the gum wrappers....is this just a red herring or again saved up for book 7? And what about Aunt Petunia? I'm sure JKR mentioned something in an interview that there is more to Aunt Petunia - but not much more was said in HBP. I don't want to sound all negative and I say again that I LOVED reading it! But it left me not only feeling very sad and depressed about Dumbledore's fate, but with a slight frustration that this book didn't quite live up to its full potential. Rita From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:41:40 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:41:40 -0000 Subject: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: <003401c58df9$e39bf870$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133856 Sherry wrote: > > I'm firmly convinced that Snape is ESE now, since HBP. However, I'm looking > for someone else to be the character who is given a second chance and turns > away from evil. Draco perhaps? Everyone's focus is on Snape now, and we > will be debating his motives till book seven and beyond. So, I'm wondering > if that's all a way to throw us off the track. We have been supposed to > consider him to be the nasty person who can still serve the good side, and > maybe it will be someone else we never expected. Well, my theory hasn't > risen enough to expound more, but it's where I'm starting to lean. > Inkling now: I think Peter Pettigrew will be the character who turns away from evil. Maybe Draco will as well, but we'll be anticipating it after his inner conflict in HBP. I think Peter will do the unexpected and be a hero -- he's the only character left who can provide that kind of big surprise. How could JKR resist? :-) Inkling From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 21 15:40:45 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:40:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's handwriting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amythevivaciousone" wrote: > smilinggator wrote: > > >One thing that has stuck out in my mind is the description of > >Dumbledore's handwriting as "thin" and "slanting". In PS/SS, his > >handwriting in the note he wrote to Harry when he gave him his > >father's invisibility cloak was "loopy" and "narrow". If you compare > >the handwriting, the only thing that is the same is DD's signature > >in HBP and the handwriting of the note in PS/SS. > > >Maybe I am just being picky here, but then I came across Hagrid's > >handwriting in HBP, when he wrote to tell the kids of Aragog's >death. > >It looked exactly the same as it had in POA when he wrote about > >Buckbeak's impending execution and in PS/SS when he invited Harry > >over > >for afternoon tea. So, why has DD's handwriting changed? > > Good point! I was taking a course in handwriting analysis this summer > and my teacher actually pointed out how JKR used handwriting in her > books to sublty point out things - supposedly over in Europe > handwriting analysis is a big thing. My teacher pointed out Percy's > signature in one of the books (can't remember which) and supposedly > his hooked Y can only mean one thing - that he is destined to be > either a criminal or simply evil. (interesting - very interesting!) > > But I noticed Dumbledore's changed handwriting too. We'll have to > wait and see! > > Amy Well, this could be due to which hand is Dumbledore's writing hand. In HBP, Dumbledore's right hand is now blacked and dead. I would think he could no longer write with that hand, if that was the hand he used before. colebiancardi. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:44:46 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:44:46 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <200507210608443.SM00956@devbox> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133858 > Vivamus wrote: >LV must have had a way to retrieve the HC without drinking poison. >It would seem the thing to do would be to wait there until you figured >out the puzzle, rather than drink the poison. zgirnius: I am willing to believe that the magic of the potion/cave was really such that it *DID* all have to be drunk by a person. This would not inconvenience LV in the slightest. He would just bring along a random Imperiused Muggle and have him/her drink the potion. One of the conveniences of being a Dark Lord is not having to worry about little questions of ethics... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:54:15 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:54:15 -0000 Subject: Love and Trust: LV vs DD (was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: <8c20328105072107301a4bda77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133859 I, Del, wrote: "Spherissa wrote: "And Albus Dumbledore was always meant to have a fatal flaw: his abundant capacity to love." Spherissa/Rissa corrected: "Actually, I didn't write that. I'm sorry if the attributions got confused." Del replies: Oops, apologies! It was Ljd. Del From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:54:27 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:54:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's handwriting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > > Well, this could be due to which hand is Dumbledore's writing hand. > In HBP, Dumbledore's right hand is now blacked and dead. I would > think he could no longer write with that hand, if that was the hand > he used before. Tonks: Are any of you suggesting that this really isn't DD? Because I wondered a tiny bit about that when he is appearing so vain. He is normally a very humble man, but throughout this book he keeps telling Harry how smart he (DD) is. That doesn't fit DD's personality. Also the hand. Which hand is it that LV has that is not his own? Could it be LV in DD? All in all, I think that these are just red herrings. (I have to accept the fact that DD is really dead. And I am clinging to hope here. But I must *face* the reality. DD is dead.) But back to the handwriting. It could be because his writing hand is messed up as you said. And it can also be because when a person is weak and near death their handwritting does change. I have seen this myself. It might have a shakyness to it. It will not have the same fullness of life that it normally has. Tonks_op From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 15:59:16 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721155917.18670.qmail@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133861 plittleuk wrote: The reaction "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD...." in my eyes could be construed along the lines of 'if only you understood the things that I have done, am doing and will do for you, you would not call me a coward'. This was the biggest indicator for me that Snape is on the side of good - I found it a very odd thing to make a point of taking Harry to task on at such a time when he had to get away. Lynn: It can also be construed along other lines, of course - that's what we'll be debating for the next 2 years. LOL It was over the top but I wasn't surprised by it either. We've seen Snape go ballistic before, in POA, where his mental state has been questioned. Personally I think it was simply because Snape knows he is a coward. *ducks as hundreds of hexes are sent her way by the Snape apologists* Let me explain. There is debate that when Dumbledore said Please to Snape he was either begging for his life or begging for Snape to take his life. What if the please was really for Snape to choose that which is right over that which is easy? To choose the light over the dark? To choose to sacrifice ones life for the sake of others? By killing Dumbledore, Snape chose to do that which is easy instead of standing up for what is right and turning his back on Voldemort. Yes, it would have meant his own death and wouldn't that have been the braver act, to give up your own life rather than tear your soul in half by murding someone just to live another day or so? I find it poingnant that Snape reacts so strongly to being called a coward when he continually taunted Sirius about being a coward throughout OOP. Of course, being called a coward by Harry had to be particularly galling to Snape. Snape is a coward. Regardless of whether he ends up on the side of good or evil, he didn't have the courage to "break the cycle" of violence in which he was apparently raised and instead "got his own back" by bullying those who couldn't fight back. That's not bravery, that's cowardice. Lynn test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 16:07:26 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:07:26 -0000 Subject: RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133862 --- "nocobuzz" wrote: > Here's a thought: Could RAB be Regulus Black? I have gone back and > read the section in OOTP that talks about Serius family tree...chapter > 6, pg 111...and Serius younger brother was a DE and killed by LV or on > LV's order. He wanted out and perhaps he knew about the horcrux in > the cave. Could he have gotten it from the cave by himself? > > I can't find any reference to his middle name or middle initial. > > > nocobuzz Good spotting, but if you go to messages, you can do a word search for the postings here. Just to re-cap earlier talk about R.A.B. :- "bbkkyy55" or Bonnie Message 132913 Do you think R.A.B. could be Regulus Black and that the real necklace is at 12 Grimmauld place? "vmonte" Message 132914 I think that Regulus took Kreacher with him to the cave. Kreacher also probably drank the potion. Also, if Regulus had a need to get anything from Grimmauld Place Kreacher would have been able to snap his fingers and be beack and forth in minutes. OotP, Ch. 6: "... also a heavy locket that none of them could open, ..." No wonder Harry has to live a Sirius's house next year. The locket is either in Kreacher's sleeping area or with the items Mundungus stole. Just like Dumbledore points out to Harry that they can both go into the boat, because Voldemort's enchantments will not consider a 16-year-old a threat. Voldemort would probably not view a House Elf as a threat, either, we know from Dobby that he and the Death Eaters despised House Elves. "genma99" Genma Message 133235 One more thing... I was reading somewhere (I forget where) that Sirius and Regulus have an Uncle Alphard. Perhaps this is Regulus' middle name? Harry Potter Lexicon Alphard (d. ca. 1976-1977) Uncle who died and left Sirius Black enough gold to buy a "place of his own." Alphard has been erased from the Black family tree (OP6). ... although others have suggested RAB is one ot the Borin and Blotts shop owners from Nocturn Alley. aussie From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 16:01:39 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:01:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's handwriting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133863 > Tonks: > Are any of you suggesting that this really isn't DD? Because I > wondered a tiny bit about that when he is appearing so vain. He is > normally a very humble man, but throughout this book he keeps > telling Harry how smart he (DD) is. That doesn't fit DD's > personality. Well, way back at the end of PS/SS, where we got our first "real" glimpse of DD, he mentions that his idea behind hiding the stone in the mirror the way he did was "one of my more brilliant ideas, and between you and me, that's saying something". Personally, I see Dumbledore as a realistically confident wizard. He's not cocky - he doesn't rub his abilities in anyone's face, but he knows what he's capable of and what he's not, he knows his worth, and he's not one to put on a front of false modesty. Personally, I loved that about him. Hokus. From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 21 15:58:20 2005 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:58:20 -0400 Subject: Snape/Riddle-Voldemort Message-ID: <003b01c58e0d$045dc3a0$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 133864 Anyone else see any significance in the similarities between Snape and Riddle? Mother--pure-blood witch and blood traitor (marrying a muggle man) Father--muggle man who grew to despise wife (either leaving her or beating her) Both extremely interested in the dark arts at school Both wanted DADA job at Hogwarts and were denied it (until Snape and HBP) Both power-hungry and arrogant Both self-serving Makes sense that they would fall in together. My question is, how loyal is Snape to anybody? Seems like he's just as likely to go after Voldemort's position as soon as the opportunity presents itself, then support him. Witherwings [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:11:05 2005 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:11:05 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <200507210608443.SM00956@devbox> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133865 > Vivamus: > Your way would circumvent even that. If setting them on the ground doesn't > work, conjure a platter, and hold the platter. LV must have had a way to > retrieve the HC without drinking poison. It would seem the thing to do > would be to wait there until you figured out the puzzle, rather than drink > the poison. I don't believe in the possibility that DD took the poison accepting that it would kill him, or that DD was dying anyway because of the horcrux-induced hand injury. If so, he would have done something more to prepare Harry for his passing. DD didn't know the DEs were coming that night (surprise at the dark mark), so there was no premeditated sacrificing himself for Harry's protection as a motive for allowing himself to die. There are a lot of explanations for what the potion might have been - It might have been regenerated by the basin. It might have been bewitched to return to the basin if not imbibed. It might have been bewitched to turn the goblet into a raging hippogriff. My favorite possibility : the green potion might not have been LV's original design, but an addition by RAB just to spite LV all the more. However, DD would not have jeopardized the mission by haphazardly taking a potion that might kill him. DD knew exactly what it was and how to deal with it. He knew to get a goblet and that Harry would need to be instructed to force-feed him. He must have known that it would weaken him but that Snape could cure it. And he trusted that Harry could help them escape, which was dumb considering that Harry forgot about using fire on the undead. Harry didn't seem able to produce any fire anyhow, which irritated me. If Harry could make a ring of fire, why would he have forced DD to maintain it while they crossed back to the edge of the lake? It showed me that Harry is still painfully unprepared and un-proactive in his training. And forgetful at the inopportune times. I also think that Harry was hasty in assuming the locket that fell out of DD's pocket was the one that DD pulled from the basin - DD may have had 10 lockets in his pocketses. -mgm From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 16:23:23 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:23:23 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act Message-ID: <1db.3ff2951e.301125fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133866 "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > I think DD's "please" was begging Snape to make the right choice > and he did not do it. This is why DD froze Harry...so Harry could > decide for himself--as DD did.. Rose wrote: But surely DD froze Harry so would not interfere in the final act of the tragedy? Julie says: I'm positive that's why he did it. He certainly didn't do it to protect Harry. Harry could take down Draco in a minute. And if Harry can't hold his own against some DEs, how is he going to hold his own against Voldemort? No, DD's act definitely was NOT to protect Harry. The only other possibilities are to keep Harry from interfering, or to make sure Harry sees the whole act, or both (though how it would benefit Harry to see it all I haven't figured out yet). Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristinglas at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 15:54:14 2005 From: kristinglas at yahoo.ca (kristinglas) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:54:14 -0000 Subject: Snape in the daylight?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133867 Hi there- I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen Snape in the daylight? He always had the curtains closed in the poitions room and then did the same when he moved to the dada room. it seems to me that he is always in the dark. what is that about?? could he have some vampire tendencies? I realize this is a stretch. just curious. I am also wondering if we know what Snape's patronus is and what his boggart turns into? These were hits given on a website. Kristin From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 21 16:33:36 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:33:36 -0000 Subject: Hufflepuff Cup location Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133868 The 50th anniversay of Hepzibah Smith's murder will come up in book 7 maybe. Having a Hufflepuff connection, she was probably related to Zacharias. He was a Member of Dumbledore's Army, who plays Chaser on the Hufflepuff Quidditch team. The family was very interested in tracking down that heirloom, so has heard more rumours of sightings than anyone else. If the cup was as visible as the diary (left in Lucius Malfoy's keeping), then the Smith clan may have some information. If it is in a secure location, I suggest another cave like place:- The Chamber of Secrets. I don't think the tunnels have been extensively searched. Where else is safer than a Chamber that none of the Hogwarts staff could find (because they were not Parsaltongues)and has been guarded by a Basalisk for centuries? Riddle would have been confident to use the Chamber that none could open except the heir of Slytherin. Besides, it would be a good excuse for Harry to go back to Hogwarts next year. aussie From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 16:33:23 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:33:23 -0000 Subject: New Snape Theory - SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS revealed - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133869 Valky: > Before I continue to the worst spoiler of all, I will tell you, I am > more than wiling to answer your questions about the Diary and Ginny, > ask away... I have thought it through.. > > > Valky > SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS > Souls Horcruxes Individually Never Yeild. Giving Our Lives for his > Death. Prejudiced Against Snape Harry Misinterprets Albus Noble > Sacrifice... Jen: I finally had time to really contemplate your thoughts, Valky, and I'm speechless as usual in the face of one of your theories. Perhaps it's the way you write, but I always think 'oh, she's got this one figured out.' I snippped most of your theory b/c my thoughts are pretty scattered at the moment and I just wanted to do a stream of conciousness thing at first. **(Also, where am I missing the 'worst spoiler of all'? I've been trying to find that and can't. Please direct me or let me know if you're still waiting to post it)** In the recent TIME magazine article, JKR said this about the books: "Um. I don't think they're that secular...but obviously Dumbledore is not Jesus.' Food for thought, that is. ;) HBP brought to mind wonderings about resurrection, given all the Phoenix imagery, and of course the white tomb so like another tomb where a resurrection took place. But then JKR seems to be saying we shouldn't look for Dumbledore to be a representation of Jesus. Maybe sacrifice IS the name of the game at work here, the underlying philosophical and spiritual concept in the series that makes it "um, not that secular." The stage is certainly set by Lily's sacrifice. And you mentioned the bond Sirius made with Dumbledore to sacrifice himself for Harry. Personally I think this one goes much farther back, back to the christening ceremony to make Sirius Harry's Godfather: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105067 The times Sirius said he would 'die for his friends' is not just blather. He's willing to die for Harry, so much so he swore his life on it in that ceremony (perhaps via the mysterious Unbreakable vow, perhaps not). So it doesn't bother me at all that Sirius was a willing participant, although I don't believe it was at DD's request, but James'instead. Now on to the meat of your theory, the Horcruxes. Just a few thoughts in no particular order: 1) It seems more likely that Voldemort was hoping to place one of his souls at the time of the Harry's death. Since the Potters are at GH, he was hoping to use an artifact from Gryffindor owned by the Potters. So I'm not sure how that would work with Lily's death taking out one of the horcruxes. I think there was no horcrux involved with that sacrifice. (As an aside, that might explain why there are no more artifacts belonging to GG but the sword, perhaps the remaining ones were destroyed when GH was destroyed). 2) You mentioned the diary--well? :-) I'm hoping for an explanation about where that soul is now, if not completely destroyed. 3) While I love your theory, it seems a bit cumbersome to carry out completely in Book 7. Although I do love the symmetry that Harry notes all the people "who stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather and finally Dumbledore; all determined to protect him." (Chap. 30, p. 635, US). To find out those same people actually made a willing sacrifice for him!!! Well, after he feels guilty, he'll understand the enormity of it . And oh how I'd love to see Snape sacrifice himself for Harry while extinguishing the last horcrux before the one inside Voldemort!!! But the cumbersome part....I don't know. That's a lot of deaths, very methodical deaths in some ways. Four I believe? If not written right that could drag on and on. But JKR always surprises me! Thankfully her imagination is better than mine. That's all for now. Lay more of your theory on me because it's a *good* one, and could really tie everything together. Jen, thinking there was more but it escapes her now. From Tiassa at TiassaTech.com Thu Jul 21 16:32:11 2005 From: Tiassa at TiassaTech.com (dwltiassa) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:32:11 -0000 Subject: Snape/Riddle-Voldemort In-Reply-To: <003b01c58e0d$045dc3a0$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danielle Arnt" > Makes sense that they would fall in together. My question is, how loyal is Snape to anybody? Seems like he's just as likely to go after Voldemort's position as soon as the opportunity presents itself, then support him. > My sentiments exactly. One of the "disconnects" in HBP was AD saying that LV was a loner and never let anyone get close to him, yet Snape was implying that he was LV confidant and 2nd in command. Now that may have been boasting to the Black sisters, but my feeling at the end of HBP was that SS is trying to "play both ends against the middle" and end up in control of the Death Eaters (having disposed of LV) and the Wizarding community in general (by "saving" them from those evil Death Eaters). If he could pull this off it would be a brilliant coup, but knowing Rowling, he won't. Dwltiassa From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 16:19:16 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:19:16 -0000 Subject: The Changeling Horcrux Hypothesis (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133871 Hey all, I'm trying to post more here now - I'm a longtime potterplotting hobbyist, and HBP drew me out of my lurkdom :). I posted this over on tinglinger's potterplotting group, but with no replies so far, figured I'd bring it on over to the "big leagues" to get thoroughly giggled at. I've also edited it a bit upon further reflection, and by no means is this my final word or an immutable conclusion - I just love the discussion :). I've always been a fan of the Changeling Hypothesis, as put forth here: http://www.redhen-publications.com/Changeling.html Now when I read HBP, and came to the part about Voldemort's Horcruxes, I immediately thought "Well, there goes that idea." Then, I started thinking more about the Horcruxes, how they're made, and, since we aren't sure of the identity of at least one, whether or not Dumbledore could be wrong about his list or have missed one right under his nose - i.e., Harry. Dumbledore himself said that a part of Riddle went into Harry when the AK failed, and that it was likely Voldemort was going to use Harry to make his final Horcrux. This is idea is not unique to me - there have already been several posts on various forums concerning Harry being a Horcrux. They've been met with mixed approval, as there are a few major hurdles in the theory, and they have a lot to do with questions about how a Horcrux is made, how one is destroyed, and so forth. I propose that to use the "soul split" as it happens when you kill, you have to be ready, have to be prepared, to channel the piece of soul into the host object. The idea of being able to "kill now, horcrux later" doesn't appeal - I'm pretty sure stashing a piece of your soul in the ether to use later isn't akin to putting the rest of the casserole in the fridge. So, let's assume then that LV was all ready, and prepared, to make his final Horcrux when he murders baby Harry. Wand raises, AK fires, Horcrux enchantment goes off, and...uh oh. He definitely got a piece of his soul split for killing - too bad it was for killing himself, and too bad he's not able to corral that piece of soul to where he wants, being rather uncorporeal, in "pain beyond pain", and perhaps somewhat less than focused. Admittedly, this part of my theory is hazy, since it rides on a lot of assumption, both about Horcruxes and what constitutes "killing/murdering" (since Voldemort did not, in actuality, die.). Is it the intent behind the killing, or the killing itself that provides the right "stuff" to facilitate the splitting of the soul and creation of a Horcrux? Aurors were permitted by Crouch to fight Unforgiveable with Unforgiveable, but there didn't seem to be a big to do about soul splitting, though maybe not many know that's what happens, either. At any rate, until I have something better and more substantive, the assumptions must be made. Harry is going back to Godric's Hollow, as far as we know, after he bids goodbye to Privet Dr. for good and attends the sure-to-be- difficult-due-to-a-pretty-redhead-in-a-gold-gown wedding. If, upon his arrival and subsequent browsing of the grounds, Harry happens to find an object which he believes is/could be used as a Horcrux, alarms, at least for me, will sound. I believe if Harry finds such an object, I think it will be what LV will have been GOING to use for the final Horcrux. Moving on, we now see the issue Harry runs into when he discovers this little secret - namely, how the heck does he get a piece of soul out of himself, without doing himself serious damage, i.e. death? We've got to assume that next book, should Harry be carrying out his plan, he'll learn how to dispose of Horcruxes without destroying the object (Dumbledore did it with the ring - incidentally, where did that ring get to? Harry noticed it gone, and then we were inclined to just forget it.). This is where the Changeling Hypothesis comes back in - in that theory, the soul (now soul piece) of Tom Riddle has intertwined with Harry's soul. Things just got even harder. How to get a piece of soul apart from your soul and...oh wait, I think by now we know that. A Horcrux. Yup, Harry's got to make a Horcrux. Harry has to kill and split his soul. Can you think of anyone at all Harry might like to off, especially once he knows how much it could help? A certain Half-Blood Prince comes to mind. I don't care if it turns out Snape is a good guy, I don't care if Harry finds this out - one way or another, if this crazy theory pans out, Snape will be Harry's Horcrux killing, thus giving Snape a redemption of sorts, no matter what, and a purpose in the overall narrative as well. Now, how does Harry get the right piece of soul? I doubt he'll be able to look inside himself and see that his soul has a dotted line marked "Do not cut above this line", like a bag of frozen peas. Things again get hazy here, as I'm honestly not sure - could be this is where LV using Harry's blood comes into play, and their souls are so compatible or some gibberish that it really doesn't matter, or maybe the soul piece actually WILL have stayed separate - heck, maybe it's in the scar, I honestly don't know for sure, which is why this is a theory. Boom - Harry kills Snape, sacrificially if he's good (after an intense battle wherein Harry learns the truth, but Snape is too injured to survive), or with much pleasure if he's not, and makes his own Horcrux, which is now technically LV's final Horcrux as well. One more wild connection between them. Harry destroys it, and...oops. Another thing... Harry was a squib until he got LV's soul piece. That gave him powers. Now, suddenly, Harry is magicless, and basically running for his life from AK after AK that Riddle is throwing at him. What to do? Harry's thoughts turn to everyone he loves, who has loved him, and so forth, as his life flashes before his eyes like all the good cliches say it will. Remember JKR mentioning someone learning to do magic later in life, under extreme circumstances? Remember Dumbledore's claim that love is the most powerful and ancient type of magic of all? No clue what form it takes, but Harry destroys LV with said magic, under extreme circumstances. Alright, alright, I personally don't put a lot of stock in that last little bit. I think Harry is a bonafide wizard, I hope that someone would've made the connection between the transfer and him being a Squib otherwise (i.e. DD), though since Lily and James were hiding and babies don't often show magical ability right away, it's possible no one knew. Still, I think Harry must sacrifice SOMETHING here, even if it's just the powers that came along with Tom's soul piece. One last thing - I still think LV plans to make Harry his final Horcrux killing. I don't think, assuming the validity of this theory, he knows he already made his final Horcrux, and that his target actually became his vessel. I don't think he used Nagini like DD thinks - Bryce was a muggle, no chance Tom was gonna use THAT murder for one of HIS Horcruxes. I think the main reason LV still wants to kill Harry personally is not just to prove he can, though that's a nice bonus. Nope, I think he wants to pick up where he left off, and cement his immortality in the most fitting and symbolic way he can. This Changeling Horcrux Theory is, if nothing else, decent stuff to think on, I believe. Go ahead and expand, critique, laugh, yawn, whatever. I've got 2 years before I can be genuinely laughed at for such foolishness :). Hokus From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 16:18:19 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:18:19 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133872 Ali: > I read this portion of the book and wondered if spell-working was not > similar to languages. What if, like languages, after a > while, people develop an instinct for what's right > With five years of practice, it isn't unreasonable, then, to assume > that the kids have picked up the necessary instincts, especially > Harry, what with his many adventures and all. In support of Ali's point, in the graveyard scene in GOF, Harry merely points his wand and yells, "Accio!" to summon the portkey to return to Hogwarts (as opposed to "Accio portkey" or whatever). Think that at this point the intention is much more powerful than the actual words or wrist movements. Did anyone else wonder why Harry didn't try a non-verbal spell when up on the rooftop with DD and Malfoy? Marisa From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 16:09:43 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:09:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133874 Missy wrote: > That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was only ever to be a Horcrux spell. Marisa: Re-reading GOF, Voldemort himself says that he was trying to kill Harry, but the spell rebounded (pages 652-3, US Version): "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him... ...I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself..." Therefore, if Harry DID become a Horcrux, it appears to be unintentional on LV's part. >> It has been pointed out that this spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used James's (or Lily's) wand. Marisa: You are quite correct that the spell that was attempted on Harry did not emerge from LV's wand during the priori incantatem. This is quite a mystery, and, still, to the best of my knowledge, unexplained. On page 697 (GOF, US Version), DD says, "...one of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed--in reverse..." However, on the following page, DD says, "The last murders the wand performed." It is unclear if a backfired or rebounded spell would therefore register or produce an echo. Wizards perform many, many spells with there wands and I am sure that LV has performed spells that were not murders. The only spells that appear to have regurgitated were the murders. I'd love JKR to clarify a bit more on priori incantatem, however, I doubt that it will show that LV went to Godric's Hollow to make Harry a horcrux (at least intentionally). I agree with whoever said that he probably already had all his horcruxes in place prior to that time. And, indeed, that the rebounded AK did not kill, but "ripped him from his body" is proof-positive that he did have at least one horcrux (per Slughorn's description in HBP) and now we know that he had more than one. Marisa From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 16:30:47 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:30:47 EDT Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133875 Miltz writes: This was the part of the interview slightly before the above passage: ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope. It looks like she is encouraging speculation not because it will definitely happen, but because she doesn't want to destroy hope in her readership. So, while it's nice to speculate, don't get so caught up in the speculation that you can't see the real clues peppered throughout the books. Millz Julie says: Okay, answer me this. Assuming for a moment Snape is on the side of good, then how would JKR have answered this question in your opinion? She's used "I can't say, that would spoil the plot" before, but that tends to sound like a confirmation. I believe JKR's greatest intent is to keep anyone from truly knowing if Snape is on the side of good or the side of bad. JKR has encouraged speculation before, and not only about misleading plot points but also about plot points that turn out to be true. As for speculating and ignoring real clues peppered throughout the books, those of us who suspect Snape is on the side of good have enumerated the dozens of clues that seem to point this way, from the enigmatic DD/Snape conversation, to DD's pleading, to Snape's lack of effort against Harry, and on and on. It's these many inconsistencies that JKR has planted that have led us to doubt that the Snape AKs Dumbledore scene should be taken at face value. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Tiassa at TiassaTech.com Thu Jul 21 16:42:27 2005 From: Tiassa at TiassaTech.com (dwltiassa) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:42:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Wayward Conjectures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133876 "lucinda428" wrote: It has been pointed out that this > spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used > James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use > the wand of the person you killed? Or maybe it did and we didn't see it, maybe it was what formed the "Golden dome shaped web" that surrounded them (I know, this creates a new "wand order problem"). Another alternative is that Priori Incantem only shows prior results of the same spell trying to be cast at the time -- this makes a lot of sense because otherwise is assumes that the only spells cast by LV's wand were AK's Dwltiassa From trog at wincom.net Thu Jul 21 16:55:40 2005 From: trog at wincom.net (Dennis Grant) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:55:40 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: <20050721155917.18670.qmail@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133877 Ladi lyndi wrote: > Personally I think it was simply because Snape knows he is a coward. I'm forced to agree (although I also agree that the whole question of Snape's actions on the tower and subsequent is speculation, as the text is written to be as open-ended as possible) And I think he is particularly sensitive to the issue right then, because he has just taken the cowardly way out. He is tied to Malfoy and his mission by an Unbreakable Vow. If he fails to either protect Malfoy, or to (in Malfoy's inability to carry out his mission) kill DD himself, Snape's life is forfeit. In order to NOT kill DD on the tower, Snape must sacrifice himself. (I'm not sure how the mechanism of the Unbreakable Vow works though - does it kill him *right there*, or can Snape mentally say "not yet" and somehow stop that aspect of the spell from triggering?) So Snape's choice is to sacrifice himself, or to sacrifice DD - and he chose DD. I think that "look of loathing" is self-loathing over his cowardice. I also suspect, when Harry faces him, Snape wants to kill Harry very, very badly indeed - but is too much of a coward to go through with it. Thus, more sensitivity to the issue. Incidently, I think Harry bears some of the responsibility for Snape's turning.... The ethics of spying has always been somewhat murky, even when the spy works for the good guys. It takes a special sort of person to work one's way into the confidence of other people and then betray them (which, let's face it, is what spies do) Even if you convince yourself that the people who you are spying on and betraying are the spawn of evil (even if they *are* the spawn of evil) taking advantage of someone's trust is not exactly moral high ground. It is not at all unusual for agents to wind up working for both sides at some point, as their conflicted loyalties pull them in different directions, especially in a case like Snape, where a "bad" guy is recruited to work for the "good" side. An agent in Snape's position is always on the cusp of fully reverting and going back to work for the "bad" guys, and the "good" guys always know it - and so recruited agents are never quite trusted. We see this explicitly in the various books, where few people are willing to place much trust in Snape. And Snape craves respect over all else. How hard must it have been for him to help people who manifestly doubt his motives at every turn? But Harry... Harry has pushed Snape beyond all endurance. Harry has NEVER given Snape his rightful (as a professor at Hogwarts and a Head of House at that) respect. Harry breaks rules at every opportunity and is regularly rewarded for it - often at the expense of Snape. When Snape helps Harry, Harry *never* shows any gratitude. Harry lies to Snape *constantly*, and there is evidence in all the books that Snape is a mind reader and KNOWS that he is being lied to. Harry commits a moral indignity, a grave invasion of privacy, by reading Snape's thoughts in the pensive in OOP, and tops that in HBP by usurping Snape's own work (and lying about that too) And through all this, Harry is coming to physically resemble his father more and more as he grows up, which re-opens all those old wounds about Snape's mistreatment at James' hands. What reason has Harry given Snape to continue suffering indignity after indignity by working for the good side? What's in it for Snape? Nothing. Whereas by killing DD, Snape earns the eternal gratitude of Voldy and the Malfoy family and Snape gets off on respect. All he has to do is sacrifice the one person on the good side who always stood by him.... Nobody is going to feel good about that - but I suspect Snape will rationalize it away, somehow. DG From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 16:57:06 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:57:06 -0000 Subject: My wildest theory and biggest dream In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133878 mgm wrote: > Somewhere else someone asked why DD would ever wear the destroyed > Horcrux. I think it was just to interest Sluggy - perhaps even to > say, "look, a destroyed horcrux. Would you just give me the memory > now?" More likely he was just showing Slughorn a Slytherin artifact > to break the ice. I'd argue that it's to tap into Slughorn's sense of guilt. Slughorn knows that he is, indirectly at least, responsible for the fact that Tom Riddle was able to gain so much power and knowledge unchecked, and that he was the one who told Voldemort the secret to immortality. So when Dumbledore wears the ring when first visiting Slughorn, I think he's saying: You know you had some hand in all this, and you owe me. You owe everyone. This is also, I think, why he brings Harry along. -anthyroserain who was finally glad to see a Slytherin like Slughorn and not like Draco From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 16:48:49 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:48:49 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: <20050721155917.18670.qmail@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > What if the please was really for Snape to choose that which is right over that which is easy? To choose the light over the dark? To choose to sacrifice ones life for the sake of others? By killing Dumbledore, Snape chose to do that which is easy instead of standing up for what is right and turning his back on Voldemort. Marisa writes: But where is it ever indicated that DD would have become aware of Snape's betrayal in those moments before his death. DD pleads, "Severus.." from the moment that Snape walks through the door. Just doesn't seem likely that Snape's appearance on the rooftop was proof to DD that Snape's loyalties lay with the DE's. Dunno. As I've said before, if Snape has truly betrayed DD then the entire fabric of the series has changed. Everything must be reinterpreted in that light -- including my favorite scene from GOF when DD tells Snape (paraphrasing), "You know what you must do," and Snape turns on his heals, no questions asked, to risk his life returning to the death eaters. I've never really liked Snape. Always hated the way he treated Harry, Hermione and Neville. Always so unfair and preferential to the Slytherins. Real easy to hate. Yet, in GOF, I believe he proved his allegiance. So that says to me that he doesn't have to be an all around good guy to be on the side of "good." And, yes, he continues his Snapely ways in OoTP, but it became increasingly difficult to doubt his loyalty. Yet, we are supposed to believe, from chapter two on, that Snape is really loyal to LV? Well, we are definitely meant to question, examine, ponder...and in the end, it does seem rather obvious or does it? Marisa From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 16:57:04 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (catalyna_99) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:57:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: <20050721155917.18670.qmail@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133880 > plittleuk wrote: > > The reaction "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD...." in my eyes could be > construed along the lines of 'if only you understood the things that I have done, am doing and will do for you, you would not call me a > coward'. > > Lynn: > >> It was over the top but I wasn't surprised by it either. We've seen Snape go ballistic before, in POA, where his mental state has been questioned. > Another usual lurker posting: I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Snape didn't just go ballistic, he was *pained*. Normally, if Harry says something sneering about Snape, Snape either bites back hard, or sneeringly answers back. In other words, goes total ballistic, no pained expressions. Usually, it's as if, he's not annoyed by what the cockroach says, it's a matter that it feels it has a right to say it to *him*. This time, it's as if what Harry said really got to him. The scene where Dumbledore is killed is also off-kilter. Snape just comes in and kills him. No sneers, no insults, no nothing, is this the Snape we all know and love to hate (or hate to love)? Dumbledore was talking with Draco trying to get him to come to the light, no pleading for his life. I think he was more concerned about Draco's life and all of sudden when Snape comes in he's seemingly pleading about his life? Nope, that scene just feels real strange. And even after Dumbledore is dead and Harry knows who the half-blood prince was, he still is feeling "protective" (I'm not sure if this is the correct word) and doesn't want to discard him totally. If he had known that Snape was the prince in the book earlier would he even had touched it? When Hermione is using the spell Harry had earlier used on Draco as proof of the Half-blood's evilness, Harry doesn't agree. He tells her it said it was good against enemies, not to go out and try it. I think this is the real foreshadowing. I don't think I can actually wait for two more years... Catalyna. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 17:07:33 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:33 -0000 Subject: New Snape Theory - SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS revealed - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133881 Valky: > Before I continue to the worst spoiler of all, I will tell you, I am > more than wiling to answer your questions about the Diary and Ginny, > ask away... I have thought it through.. > > > Valky > SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS > Souls Horcruxes Individually Never Yeild. Giving Our Lives for his > Death. Prejudiced Against Snape Harry Misinterprets Albus Noble > Sacrifice... Then Jen said: > 2) You mentioned the diary--well? :-) I'm hoping for an explanation > about where that soul is now, if not completely destroyed. Jen again: *hits head* Valky say it ain't so, is your premise that Ginny will have to carry over the soul from the diary as part of it resides in her? Oh no, this is getting awful. If Ron, Hemione and Ginny are the next in line to go, then Harry better well be the last Horcrux so he can join them. ThoroughlyDepressed!Jen From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 17:05:52 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:05:52 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > My sincere condolences to the H/Hr shippers. I am not being sarcastic > or rude, I do know what it's like to believe in something for years and have it be an illusion. Fortunately, there is so much more to the HP series than the teen romances! > > I just got done reading part two of JKR July 16th interview on > Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. > > If you haven't read it yet, there are some answers there about HBP. > She also lays to rest, in my opinion, some of the Tonks theories. > > > -Casmir Wow! Emerson is catching the heat from the H-Hr shippers at Mugglenet.com. Some of those shippers are also lashing out at Rowling and threatening never to read another Harry Potter book again... Grapes sour much? Milz From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:15:44 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:15:44 -0000 Subject: Yet another Horcrux theory post... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133883 OK, here is my take on what the six Horcruxes are and what murders created them: (1) Riddle's diary (destroyed): Moaning Myrtle (2) Slytherin's ring (destroyed): Riddle Sr. (3) Hufflepuff's cup: Hepzibah Smith (4) Slytherin's locket (at Grimmauld or stolen by Mundungus): not sure who was killed for this one (5) A Ravenclaw artifact. (Heard a theory somewhere--don't remember whether it was on here--that it's a wand, and maybe the one that had been prominently displayed at Ollivander's. This came from a theory that the four House artifacts corresponded to the suits of tarot: Gryff's sword, Hufflepuff's cup, Ravenclaw's wand, and the Slyth locket substituting for Pentacles/Coins.) The murder connected with this one would probably have been someone symbolically connected with Ravenclaw, as Hepzibah was with Hufflepuff. Perhaps a blood descendant. (6) Either Harry (if a Horcrux can be created by accident), or else something created since LV returned--either Nagini or Wormtail's hand. I personally believe LV originally intended to make the last HC a Gryff artifact, and that the reason he wanted to teach at Hogwarts was to off Dumbledore and horcrux Gryff's sword. (I think DD is probably the blood heir of Gryffindor and that's why he has all his stuff.) However, the prophecy changed LV's mind and he decided to make his last HC from the death of the boy prophesied to challenge him instead. Kelly L. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 17:23:22 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:23:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? Message-ID: <19a.38437023.3011340a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133884 Adesa writes: >So, are we to assume as Harry did that the >Prince must have been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the *publication* >date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? Certainly possible, >given he was at the school on a need-based scholarship. As you say, young Severus' texts were probably purchased used. I was immediately annoyed at Harry for missing the obvious fact that this book 1) has obviously been the standard text for NEWT potions for a half-century or more (Hello! It's still being assigned now!) and the Half-Blood Prince could easily could have attended Hogwarts at any point during that time, and 2) obviously contains errors - or at least the recipes/methods used to brew the potions can be (and have been) improved. Another thing that bothers me, though ... Snape with his strict interpretations of Hogwarts' rules (at least when Harry is around) does not strike me as the kind who would write in his textbook, nor would he leave it in a supply closet - he would have it on a shelf in his study. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phanbu at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:24:14 2005 From: phanbu at yahoo.com (phanbu) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:24:14 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mg_mchenry" wrote: [- snip -] > > I also think that Harry was hasty in assuming the locket that fell out > of DD's pocket was the one that DD pulled from the basin - DD may have > had 10 lockets in his pocketses. > > -mgm Even if AD had a pocketful of lockets, I don't think that he had many with notes addressed to the Dark Lord. Unless you are considering that AD is RAB, and that in his weakened state, while maintaining a fire ring, he forgot to leave the locket, with note, that he prepared for LV to find later. But I can't thing of any way to tie those initials to AD. Plus I think his note would have been simply addressed to "Tom", and not to the Dark Lord. -- phanbu From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:27:17 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Riddle-Voldemort In-Reply-To: <003b01c58e0d$045dc3a0$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: <20050721172717.88625.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133886 --- Danielle ArntArntybflyballcairnlbellsouth> wrote: My > question is, how loyal is SnapSnapeanybody? Seems > like he's just as likely to go after VoldVoldemort'sposition as soon as the opportunity presents itself, > then support him. I have always pegged snape as someone who is first loyal to himself and allow the universe sort itself out. But being realistically optimistic I am hoping he WON'T try to replace Lord V but try to defeate him instead. Call me silly but that is how I am. laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 21 17:29:26 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:29:26 -0400 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? References: <1121957331.2868.71765.m33@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006801c58e19$be728530$2efae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 133887 > Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and > then in his near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a > toilet, and pretended not to remember how he got there--just > to conceal the passage to Borgin's? This seems overly > elaborate to me and makes me wonder whether this is a Flint. > > Kelly L. Vivamus said: "I assume that when he was in the Vanishing Cabinet, he wasn't actually IN Hogwarts, so the anti-apparation spell wouldn't have applied. He could apparate out of the cabinet. Since he wasn't actually OUTSIDE Hogwarts, either, he could in fact apparate from inside the vanished cabinet to inside Hogwarts, bypassing the protection. This is supported by the link made between the two cabinets once the one that Peeves smashed was repaired. So he apparated out of the cabinet into the toilet, where he got stuck and nearly died (drowned?)." How? They had to remove the protection from the great hall just so the students could apparate from spot to spot within the room. You simply - as we have been told over and over by Hermione and Snape - cannot apparate/disapparate within Hogwarts. Whether Montague was in the cabinet within Hogwarts he still could not have apparated out of it because one *cannot* apparate/disapparate within the castle. "As you may know, it is usually impossible to Aparate or Disapparate within Hogwarts. The Heamaster has lifted this enchantment, purely within the Great Hall, for one hour, so as to enable you to practice." HBP 359 (Canadian version) CathyD aka - I forget what I used to call myself on here... ;) From avery at u.washington.edu Thu Jul 21 16:55:50 2005 From: avery at u.washington.edu (Avery Ke) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:55:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione/Quidditch comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050721165550.GI30722@gesh.kejia> No: HPFGUIDX 133888 Kelly L. wrote: >My take on Ginny's comment about Quidditch was just that she was >personally offended about something Hermione had accidentally implied >about Ginny's Quidditch abilities. I don't have the book in front of >me, but IIRC Hermione had said something to the effect that Gryffindor >was sunk because Harry was not going to be playing. Ginny snapped at >her because she knew that she, Ginny, would be substituting as Seeker, >and felt that Hermione was saying Ginny wasn't up to the task. It's on page 530 of the US edition. In the pages leading up to Ginny's verbal attack on Hermione, Harry has used the "Sectumsempra" curse on Draco, received a detention from Snape, and is going to miss a Quidditch match. Hermione then lectures Harry ad nauseam about the wisdom, or lack thereof, in using the mysterious Potions textbook, and wraps up with: --------------------------------------------------------------------- "--got a reputation for Potions brilliance you don't deserve," said Hermione nastily. "Give it a rest, Hermione!"said Ginny... "By the sound of it, Malfoy was trying to use an Unforgiveable Curse, you should be glad Harry had something good up his sleeve!" "Well, of course I'm glad Harry wasn't cursed!" said Hermione, clearly stung. "But you can't call that Sectumsempra spell good, Ginny, look where it landed him! And I'd have thought, seeing what this has done to your chances in the match" "Oh, don't start acting as though you understand Quidditch," snapped Ginny, "you'll only embarress yourself." ...Hermione and Ginny, who had always got on together very well, were now sitting with their arms folded, glaring in opposite directions. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I love this part, even typing it out I enjoyed it. Btdt! It's honest, exuberant bitchyness, only permissable between very good friends! You know they kissed and made up later. Avery From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:37:58 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:37:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's handwriting, JKR's devotion to children/why this may indica In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133889 Hokus wrote: > Personally, I see Dumbledore as a realistically confident wizard. > He's not cocky - he doesn't rub his abilities in anyone's face, > but he knows what he's capable of and what he's not, he knows his > worth, and he's not one to put on a front of false modesty. > Personally, I loved that about him. anthyroserain: I was never much of a Dumbledore fan before this book, but I really liked him in HBP. In a sense, he felt much less cocky to me than before, because he relies on Harry so completely. A lot of the things he says in the last chapters sound unusually confident, and I think this is because he has some inkling about what's going to happen. Not that he planned his own death, but he knows there is a good chance this is going to kill him-- and people in such extreme situations tend to come across as reckless because it doesn't matter if they do. I don't think the final decision about DD's death was made until that (Legilimens?) moment when he and Snape looked at each other. But I do think they discussed what might happen beforehand, and that they both knew there was a chance of this happening. On a related subject: something I haven't see adequately explained is that if Snape is ESE, why doesn't he hurt Harry? Yes, he would need to keep Harry alive for the Dark Lord, but the DEs could certainly have taken Harry with them. Snape could have just done that and averted a whole book 7. These are, in my opinion, the best simple arguments for the deep- undercover-for-the-good-side Snape theory: HunterGreen wrote: > As a reformed wizard, working against Voldemort at extreme risk, > he's just more interesting, but as a bad guy, well, he's > *obvious*." Del wrote: > I would also be very disappointed to have Sirius be right when he > said (paraphrase) : "some spots don't come off", and DD be wrong > for giving people second chances. I would hate for one conclusion > of the series to be that some people don't deserve second chances, > that people who are "too evil" (definition of that left to your > own taste) simply can't change and repent. If Snape were evil, it would, in a narrative sense, be lame. Snape is the most fascinating character, morally speaking. And that is why I will believe he's still working for the good side until we have incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. -anthyroserain From pjarrett at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:41:20 2005 From: pjarrett at gmail.com (Patrick Jarrett) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:41:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RAB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3def328f050721104176054b00@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133890 aussie says: > Good spotting, but if you go to messages, you can do a word search > for the postings here. Just to re-cap earlier talk about R.A.B. :- > .... > > ... although others have suggested RAB is one ot the Borin and > Blotts shop owners from Nocturn Alley. > Patrick's input: I was all for RAB being Regulus, then when Borgin and Blotts came up I went ooh! Then I read the interview with Jo on mugglenet and the second section touches on RAB. MA is Melissa from Leaky Cauldron. MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] Take from it what you will, but thought I'd toss that into the ring. -- Patrick From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 17:40:46 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:40:46 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > > Miltz writes: > > This was the part of the interview slightly before the above passage: > > ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? > > JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? > > MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. > > JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little > laughter.] I have to give people hope. > > It looks like she is encouraging speculation not because it will > definitely happen, but because she doesn't want to destroy hope in > her readership. So, while it's nice to speculate, don't get so caught > up in the speculation that you can't see the real clues peppered > throughout the books. > > Millz > > > Julie says: > Okay, answer me this. Assuming for a moment Snape is on the > side of good, then how would JKR have answered this question > in your opinion? She's used "I can't say, that would spoil the plot" > before, but that tends to sound like a confirmation. I believe JKR's > greatest intent is to keep anyone from truly knowing if Snape is > on the side of good or the side of bad. JKR has encouraged > speculation before, and not only about misleading plot points > but also about plot points that turn out to be true. > I'm not Rowling, so I can only speculate how she would answer based on her previous interviews for questions dealing with the main plot. I think she would respond in the same non-committal way: JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope. By no means does a response like that mean "Yes, that's EXACTLY what's going to happen." nor does it mean "Of course not, silly, that won't happen at all." So I don't think it is wise to hitch your proverbial wagon to it because while it's clear Rowling wants her books discussed, it's also clear that she's going to do what she wants. > As for speculating and ignoring real clues peppered throughout > the books, those of us who suspect Snape is on the side of > good have enumerated the dozens of clues that seem to point > this way, from the enigmatic DD/Snape conversation, to DD's > pleading, to Snape's lack of effort against Harry, and on and on. > It's these many inconsistencies that JKR has planted that > have led us to doubt that the Snape AKs Dumbledore scene > should be taken at face value. > > Julie While the book has clues, some of these "clues" are red herrings and some of them are red flags. The DD/Snape conversation is a fragment---it's as easy to read into that fragment whatever you want. As for Snape's lack of effort against Harry, there's big reasons why Snape didn't kill or main Harry: There's still one more book left in the series. It wouldn't make sense for Harry to be maimed or injured---yet. As for face value....again, OoP discussions were a bit heavy with the "Sirius can't be dead" theories and I know that some readers were still holding onto some hope that Sirius would be found alive in HBP. And we can't forget that the H-Hr Ship was sunk due to lack of canon evidence (and Rowling admitting that she drop big clues helped too.) I choose to look at Snape's guilt or innocent based upon his entire HP history not only on fragments in the latest book. I want to keep an open mind as to what Rowling's verdict will be, rather than put all my eggs into my basket. As the H-Hr shippers have found, doing that only resulted in alot of broken eggs. Milz From cathmorgan at cetian.net Thu Jul 21 17:34:21 2005 From: cathmorgan at cetian.net (cathmorgan100) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:34:21 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133892 > HogwartsMom > > > Yeah, I wondered why not conjur 10 goblets and fill them, but not > > empty them. Set them on the ground. Would the basin know you > > weren't drinking them? > > Another question about this - how did the liquid get back in the basin > after the first customer drank it and removed the first locket? As a baseline, the whole cave enchantment is complex and only partially explained by DD, so there's a lot of room for any number of steps needed to get the locket and to escape. Re: the liquid in the basin, which also snagged my attention, there seem to be several possibilities: 1. RAB-whoever that is-is clever enough to get the locket so presumably is clever enough to do anything else to have the replacement unnoticed and escape, such as replace the fluid. 2. RAB as Black makes even more sense if LV was using his DE's to help hide some of the horcrux's....then a helper might have enough hints even if not as clever as LV or DD. Maybe he wasn't quite clever enough and his replacement was noticed, leading to his death. 3. The liquid is not the same type as the original and for various reasons (hand waving explanations due Book 7) doesn't have to be. 4. The RAB note is a red herring. LV took the locket and left the replacement as a trap. Cathcart From kethlenda at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:49:53 2005 From: kethlenda at yahoo.com (Kelly L.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:49:53 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <19a.38437023.3011340a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: As you say, young Severus' texts were probably purchased used. Kelly L.: Severus did have a used book; it belonged to his mother, Eileen Prince. I think it's even explicitly stated in canon that it was her book. She had passed her own copy down to him rather than buy him a new one. From oppen at mycns.net Thu Jul 21 07:32:29 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:32:29 -0500 Subject: FILK: Non-Lament for the Dursleys, or My Hope for Book Seven Message-ID: <000201c58e1d$caa601c0$14570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 133894 Non-Lament for the Dursleys by Eric Oppen ttto _The Roman Centurion's Song,_ by Leslie Fish Headmistress, I got the word, The Dursleys all are dead. They all were slaughtered in their home, The Dark Mark overhead. The Weasleys came and broke the news, They thought that I'd be sad, But all that I can say is this, I'm really, really glad! I've lived with Dursleys ever since That fatal Halloween And they could never treat me well, As baby, child or teen. They welcomed me like lumps of coal Beneath their Christmas tree. And now you folks want me to grieve? You must be kidding me! My Uncle Vernon was no kin, Although he used that name, The things he did to keep me down Would bring Death Eaters shame. Too little food, too many chores, I slept beneath the stairs, And now you tell me that he's dead? Go tell someone who cares! And Aunt Petunia---what a mess! Her envy ruled her life. She hated my mum all her days, And Dad 'cause Mum's his wife. She tried to crush the "nonsense" out, To make me "sane" and dull, Her goal, I think, was to make me Much thicker than a troll. And Cousin Dudley, pig in wig, A nasty, spoilt brat! Three feet across, or maybe more, He was a loathsome prat! He bullied, stole, and broke his toys, Tormented me "in play," And now he's pushing up the grass? This is my lucky day! Hermione thought I would mourn, They were my family, But after all they put me through, I feel I'm really free. Go send the word to Voldemort His Death Eaters did well, And if I see those three again, I'll know that I'm in Hell! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ngermany at excite.com Thu Jul 21 18:05:23 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:05:23 -0000 Subject: Not much classroom action, was: Re: The Fate of DD/Snape studies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133895 > > I really missed not seeing more classroom action - it's as though > being at school was only incidental to Harry's life right now. I > was especially eager to see Snape teach DADA, and we got very little > of that. (How *does* he think a Dementor should be battled?) Maybe > JKR did that on purpose so what we see of Snape's use of the Dark > Arts - and Defense from - in book 7 will be more of a surprise. At > least I'd like to think that. > > HBP was the first book of the series that I felt was really too > short. Lack of classroom action was a main reason. (Also, not > enough Neville, Snape, Dennis, and some other people!) > > - Rosmerta Granted that in this book Harry is very busy and not much interested in school(for instance, much as he loves quidittich(?) it is mentioned less in this book than in previous books). But we see more of Harry in potions class than we see of Harry in DADA. It's down right odd (to the point of being suspicious) given the way Snape has treated Harry in the past not to see him tormenting Harry more in DADA. I'm thinking something has changed for Snape. The argument will be made that Snape is pleased now...he's gotten the post LV wanted for him. But... I haven't decided what believe regarding Snape's true allegiance. Still he could have tormented Harry with the same frequency as in potions and he doesn't. On a different note.... from Adam, in a previous post: "Hermione was the only one I thought was out-of-character when she interfered with Quidditch tryouts. Not only has she never cared about Quidditch, but the fact that she would break the rules and give Ron another excuse to neglect his schoolwork simply doesn't fit. The others, however, are not that odd." Regarding Hermione's character and its development. She seems, to me, to be at the same level of development from Book 5. Adam seemed surprised that Hermione performed the cunfundus charm for unethical reasons. Remember Rita Skeeter. I expected to see more developement with her but the only change I noticed was that she's become MORE shrewish. Her character is my least favorite in this book. Elizabeththedragonslayer From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Jul 21 18:09:34 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:09:34 -0000 Subject: HBP: Assorted threads in one...(LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmgarciaiii" wrote: > My take on this was that Harry WAS (not, you will note, "is") a > Horcrux. LV needed that bit for his Rebirthing Party, it's what > allowed him that rebirth. Perhaps a cleverer mind than mine can > explain to me how Harry can kill LV (who, presumably, has some > microscopic portion of his own soul in him, now that he has > undergone rebirth) by dying. It also seems unlikely to me that > Dumbledore couldn't detect that Harry was a Horcrux once he figured > out the whole Horcrux thing. I'm pretty much agreeing with Boolean. I tend to agree with this--this is one of the potential?/probable? plot twists in #7: when will Harry realize he/his scar was a Horcrux? > Mind you, as I was discussing this offline with another member > (I'll let her out herself) we were struck by Hagrid's quote WAY > BACK at the beginning (Ch. 4, I think) of Book One: "Some say > [Voldemort] died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough > human left in him to die." Which led us to speculate along the > direction of the of what were LV's precautions against mortal > death...eventually revealed to be the Horcruxes. This has led me > to think there may be a lot more to Hagrid than we thought. He may > be something of a goofball, and he is nowhere near being a > qualified wizard, but there is an instinct there that seems quite > powerful. Just a thought. First, I'll throw off the Invisilibility Cloak and admit to being this offline discussion member. :-) Second, I think the use of the word "instinct" with respect to Hagrid is spot on. Hagrid has a love for the terrible (in all senses of the word) creatures of the WW and I wonder if his communion with them as well as his compassion for them, will come to Harry's aid in #7. > I'm sure that RAB is Regulus A(lphard?) Black. And JKR all but confirmed that in the interview released today. > I'm surer than ever that Harry will "die" by crossing the veil, > Odysseus-like. I'm not so sure he will right now. I think he may have already made the journey across the Styx in #6 in the cave (dead in the water, don't touch anything, don't eat or drink anything). What I do think will be Harry's big assistance to converse with the dead in #7, and I've said this to Joe in private email, is the mirror that Sirius gave him. Today the second part of an interview with JKR was published at The Leaky Cauldron and it said in part: --------------- MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html ------------------- However, this isn't to also say that we won't get to learn more about the doorway. I also think that the big thing Harry will learn, whether from his dead family/DD or from his colleagues, is how to "see" magic. A big point is made in HBP about magic leaving marks, and as I've just started re-reading SS/PS, I was struck by the section where Hagrid tells Harry how he got his scar and says something like "Powerful magic like that leaves a mark." > One thing that Harry must do, besides gather Horcruxes like > daisies, is become a more proficient wizard. He learns quickly > enough when taught properly, but he is not someone who has > yet "invented" any magic. We know that Snape (as the HBP) and LV > both have and it's a cinch to assume Dumbledore has also invented > spells and enchantments. Harry has not done this yet and, mark my > words, he's gonna hafta. Another point where we disagree. :-) I could see Harry consolidating some spells or augmenting one to defeat Voldemort. But I'm not sure that being an inventor (although I take Joe's point) is crucial. In another message Joe wrote: > Now, on a completely different front, I am of the opinion that > the gum wrappers Alice hands Neville are a HUGE clue as to the > whereabouts of a horcrux. This makes a lot of sense. > However, I kind of thought it was interesting that while it was > sweet that Fleur said she'd never abandon Bill because of his scars, > Anthyroserain said: "I can't help but think that we would *never* > see the reverse, gender-wise." To which I wonder...why is it so > readily assumed the male is the one fixated on looks? I think the > reason that was written as was--and eleventy gazillion times more > interesting--is that this scene provides Fleur with new depth. Prior > to this it is assumed she is shallow and vapid and only involved > with Bill because he is handsome and cool. It probably also foreshadows that she is going to have a key moment herself in #7. So much more to write and so little time to either read the posts or to write some reponses. jujube From michael.genesis at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:02:17 2005 From: michael.genesis at gmail.com (Michael McHenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:02:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: References: <20050721155917.18670.qmail@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ff5b99205072111022521f70f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133897 > Ladi lyndi wrote: > > > Personally I think it was simply because Snape knows he is a coward. > > I'm forced to agree (although I also agree that the whole question of > Snape's actions on the tower and subsequent is speculation, as the > text is written to be as open-ended as possible) > > And I think he is particularly sensitive to the issue right then, > because he has just taken the cowardly way out. > I also suspect, when Harry faces him, Snape wants to kill Harry very, > very badly indeed - but is too much of a coward to go through with it. > Thus, more sensitivity to the issue. Snape is furious when Harry call's him a coward. If you believe in ESE!Snape, then forget his motives for being upset - pay attention to his reaction to his intense anger: Snape tells Harry (in a loud voice) not to call him a coward. That's it, unless you count repelling Harry's litany of curses. Snape does not: 1) Crucio Harry just for the ESE fun of it 2) Sectumsempra Harry's wand arm to hummiliate him. 3) Step on Harry's face 4) Say anything really hurtful back, perhaps something crude about Lilly and how Harry is really Snape's bastard love child 5) Waste any time stopping other DEs from hurting Harry 6) Forget to give Harry fighting tips Snape is protecting Harry. (begin circle-back logic) Snape is upset *because* the boy he is protecting for the cause he represents is calling him a coward in the midst of extremely painful circumstances. JKR wants the reader to doubt Snape to make Harry's anger look even more justified. Harry is supposed to love, not hate. My guess is that this will be a major theme of book 7. Anyhow, if Snape really was ESE, she wouldn't have revealed it in chapter 2, but at the tower. Another theory: Snape has two tattoos. On his forearm is the dark mark. On his chest in two-inch high print are the words "Red Herring". -mgm From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 18:13:42 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:13:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133898 Two unrelated questions: (1) I found it perplexing that Snape's old Potions text would make it in the bin of old ones available for class use. Perhaps Snape liked to keep it close at hand when he was the Potions professor, but something about its getting into Harry's hands feels a bit contrived. I can't imagine that Snape would inadvertently leave it lying around. At the same time, I'm having trouble seeing how this little feat could realistically have been engineered. Was this the real reason that Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry won't take Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he won't have bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will get Harry to take the class without a text and will create an excuse to put Snape's old text in his hands. Feels like a bit much. Any thoughts? (2) Way back in Chapter Two (Spinner's End), we have Narcissa Malfoy demonstrating behavior most unlike that of the typical DE, displaying what appears to have been real emotion -- love, we can say -- for son Draco. Will there be some parallel between Lily's love for Harry and Narcissa's love for Draco that leads to a Draco redemption of some kind? Ersatz Harry From pschmiedl at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 18:09:55 2005 From: pschmiedl at earthlink.net (trish_threads_needles) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:09:55 -0000 Subject: The last horcrux is inside Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133899 Alina wrote: > > Part of the reason I think we may be correct is that did you notice > (you might not have if you have the American edition, I haven't seen > it), the illustration of Marvolo's Ring when it's split down the > middle, the crack looks just like a lightning bolt. I actually thought > that's what it was at first. Now I know illustrations aren't exactly > canon like the books, but... you never know! > In a recent tv interview (I think on Dateline)JKR stated something like- The shape of Harry's scar was not what was important. Trish From cara at salmacis.co.uk Thu Jul 21 18:33:28 2005 From: cara at salmacis.co.uk (cara_vzq) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:33:28 -0000 Subject: Someone who knows why DD trusted Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133900 Hello all, de-lurking as I occasionally do here to say, there is a part in the book that threw up a questions for me, over why Dumbledore trusted Snape. When talking to Dumbledore about Snape Harry says: `So, Sir,' said Harry, in what he hoped was a polite, calm voice, `you definitely still trust--?' `I have been tolerant enough to answer that question already' said Dumbledore, but he did not sound very tolerant anymore. `My answer has not changed.' `I should think not,' said a snide voice; Phineas Nigellus was evidently only pretending to be asleep. Dumbledore ignored him. P336, UK Edition, Could this mean that Phineas knows the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape? Phineas, who has before moved between his portrait at Hogwarts to Grimmaud Place, which Harry now owns, and will possibly be visiting in Book 7 . There might be potential for an explanation through Phineas. I personally am undecided as to Snapes allegiance, there are compelling arguments on each side, though I must admit that I'm hoping for a good Snape Sorry if this has been picked up on before, there are so many posts I can hardly keep up! "Cara" From ashley_steigerwald at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 18:37:09 2005 From: ashley_steigerwald at yahoo.com (Ashley Steigerwald) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: <006801c58e19$be728530$2efae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20050721183709.61678.qmail@web60214.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133901 Cathy D wrote: > "As you may know, it is > usually impossible to Aparate or Disapparate within > Hogwarts. I'm not saying I fully support the theory that someone can apparate, but remember when Harry was looking for Draco on the Maurader's Map in HBP? Every time he would look for Malfoy while Malfoy was in the Room of Requirements, Malfoy would disappear. Maybe the room of requirements isn't covered by the enchantments all over Hogwarts? But if that were true, why wouldn't the death eaters just apparate directly into the room of requirements, why continue through the charage of fixing the closet? Also, do you think Harry will be able to get the book back? Do you think the book is visible from the closet in Burke and Borgin's or only visible from the closet in the Room of Requirements?? -Ashley ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From romulus at hermionegranger.us Thu Jul 21 18:41:38 2005 From: romulus at hermionegranger.us (romulusmmcdougal) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:41:38 -0000 Subject: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions (Way long/HBP Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > > houyhnhnm: > > > > In the cave: > > "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the > > goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it..." (p. 571) > > > > On the lightening-struck tower: > > "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and > > hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. > > > > 'Severus ... please' > > > > Snape raised his wand..." (p.595-596) > > > > On second reading it seems more likely to me that Dumbledore is not > > saying 'please don't kill me', but 'please do what you promised to > > do'. > You know, I have to agree with you here. It seems that if Dumbledore did not want to die, or was not sacrificing himself for the cause, he would not have kept Harry frozen and incapable of helping him. But he did keep Harry immobilized so that the intended scene could play itself through. Remember what Dumbledore told Harry earlier as regards the protection that Lily gave Harry as a result of the willing sacrifice of her life for him? It saved his life and the magic of it was completely unknown to Voldemort. In a repeat of the same sacrifice, Dumbledore is sacrificing himself for the cause, realizing that his sacrifice would protect who or what? Harry? The Order of the Phoenix? Hogwarts? hmmmmmmmmmm....... RMM From michael.genesis at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:37:16 2005 From: michael.genesis at gmail.com (Michael McHenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:37:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <19a.38437023.3011340a@aol.com> References: <19a.38437023.3011340a@aol.com> Message-ID: <4ff5b992050721113715c60239@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133903 > Adesa writes: > >So, are we to assume as Harry did that the > >Prince must have been at Hogwarts *50 years ago*, based on the > *publication* > >date? Snape must have had a second-hand book then, right? Ray said: Certainly > possible, > >given he was at the school on a need-based scholarship. > > As you say, young Severus' texts were probably purchased used. I was > immediately annoyed at Harry for missing the obvious fact that this book 1) has > obviously been the standard text for NEWT potions for a half-century or more > (Hello! It's still being assigned now!) and the Half-Blood Prince could > easily could have attended Hogwarts at any point during that time, and 2) > obviously contains errors - or at least the recipes/methods used to brew the potions > can be (and have been) improved. I don't think the book contains errors. If it did, Hermione wouldn't remain loyal to it. My pet theory is that the Ministry book contains the safest and most reliable way to brew these potions, but not necessarily the fastest or most powerful. Red Hen has a workable theory the MoM attempts to discourage channeling unsafe amounts of more dangerous (dark) magic. (see http://www.redhen-publications.com/HistoryofMagic.html ) A person drawn to dark wizardry would be less concerned with this and willing to put more on the line while brewing potions. It is quite likely that an average Hogwarts student attempting to follow the prince's directions might endanger him/herself or ruin the potion. No one else ever tried following HBP's directions. Maybe they knew better. There must be a reason Snape didn't teach these types of non-MoM techniques to his own students in earlier years, not even DM. Ray said: > Another thing that bothers me, though ... Snape with his strict > interpretations of Hogwarts' rules (at least when Harry is around) does not strike me > as the kind who would write in his textbook, Are we absolutely sure the handwriting in the book is Snape's and not Eileen's? I think we're meant to believe that it's Snape's. As intelligent as Snape seems to be, it's hard to imagine he would have to write any of that information down for later. Perhaps he struggled as much as any other Hogwarts student at the time, wrote his notes in his books by necessity. Perhaps he had to write them down because the material came from someone else to begin with. -mgm From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Thu Jul 21 18:43:11 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:43:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: <006801c58e19$be728530$2efae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <200507211443828.SM01996@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 133904 > > Am I to believe that Montague Apparated into the shop, and > then in his > > near-dead state went back to Hogwarts, hid in a toilet, and > pretended > > not to remember how he got there--just to conceal the passage to > > Borgin's? This seems overly elaborate to me and makes me wonder > > whether this is a Flint. > > > > Kelly L. > > > Vivamus said: > > "I assume that when he was in the Vanishing Cabinet, he > wasn't actually IN Hogwarts, so the anti-apparation spell > wouldn't have applied. He could apparate out of the cabinet. > Since he wasn't actually OUTSIDE Hogwarts, either, he could > in fact apparate from inside the vanished cabinet to inside > Hogwarts, bypassing the protection. This is supported by the > link made between the two cabinets once the one that Peeves > smashed was repaired. So he apparated out of the cabinet > into the toilet, where he got stuck and nearly died (drowned?)." > > > How? They had to remove the protection from the great hall > just so the students could apparate from spot to spot within > the room. You simply - as we have been told over and over by > Hermione and Snape - cannot apparate/disapparate within > Hogwarts. Whether Montague was in the cabinet within > Hogwarts he still could not have apparated out of it because one > *cannot* apparate/disapparate within the castle. "As you may > know, it is usually impossible to Aparate or Disapparate > within Hogwarts. The Heamaster has lifted this enchantment, > purely within the Great Hall, for one hour, so as to enable > you to practice." HBP 359 (Canadian version) > > CathyD Vivamus: Again, he was NOT inside of Hogwarts when he was inside the cabinet, so the spells against apparation within Hogwarts did not apply to him. But, he ALSO was not OUTside the grounds, either, so any spells protecting against apparating IN would not apply, either. The two cabinets effectively create a wormhole that bypasses the enchantments. DD was surprised by the cleverness of Malfoy's plan in connecting B&B's shop with the castle -- it clearly bypassed his enchantments to protect the grounds from invasion. It was a way for something evil to get into the castle without facing the enchantments. The same logic applies to Montague's supposed apparation. He wasn't inside the grounds, so spells against apparating inside didn't apply, and he wasn't outside the grounds, so spells against apparating from outside in didn't apply. Oddly enough, house elves seem to have no problem apparating within Hogwarts, but that doesn't seem to be related, here. Vivamus From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 18:48:23 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:48:23 -0000 Subject: JKR's devotion to children/why this may indicate Snape is evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133905 > Susan McGee wrote: > >>We all know about JKR's devotion and dedication to children -- she > loves them all, as indicated by her readings to children, her > charitable contributions to children, her disclosing of the book title > to a particularly adorable boy.... > > So, Snape's treatment of children may indicate his real character. > > [snip examples of Snape treating children badly] > > I believe that this kind of behavior towards children is disgusting > and unpardonable -- but never mind what I think -- I believe JKR > believes that, too..<< > > HunterGreen: > The fact that he's so obviously evil is what makes it so hard to > accept that he actually is. He's much more interesting as a "good- but- > doesn't-act-it" character. As a bad guy, he's almost a stereotype, he > dresses in dark clothes, he's a loner, he's cruel, he despises the > [Personally though, I don't think it matters either way now what his > personality is like. I feel we lost a good character, but (to me at > least) there's no getting past him killing Voldemort. I wish there > was some way out of it.] > Alla: I would like to disagree with Rebecca and say that Snape could still be a very interesting character as someone who lost his chance for redemption , or so it seems. He does not have to be stereotypical as ESE, in fact pre HBP Voldemort fills this role in my imagination very strongly. Snape may have genuinely repented for what he did to Potters, but then started to resent Dumbledore when Harry came to school. Someone said ( don't remember the name of the poster-) that Snape may have killed Dumbledore BECAUSE he thought that Dumbledore places too much importance on Harry as bein the one who can kill Voldie. It sounds quite plausible to me now that Snape may want to kill Voldemort himself and feels that Dumbledore was blocking his way so to speak. I think the possibilities are endless here. :-) As to what Susan said, well, yes, I always thought that what Snape does to Harry and Neville reveals VERY dark person. But I never expected THAT. I was glad that I guessed correctly that he was the eavesdropper though. I agree with you Rebecca though - it does not matter eventually for what reasons Snape killed Dumbledore and I just don't see pure reasons for murder in "Potterverse". Sorry! Unless of course Dumbledore is secretly alive. :-) But I doubt it. Sigh... Just me, Alla. From mark_lants at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 18:47:58 2005 From: mark_lants at yahoo.com (mark_lants) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:47:58 -0000 Subject: Snape/Riddle-Voldemort In-Reply-To: <003b01c58e0d$045dc3a0$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133906 Witherwings wrote: > Anyone else see any significance in the similarities between Snape and Riddle? I'm sure that there is something that links Snape and Voldemort: Let's see: The Advanced Potions book with HBP's comments was published 50 years ago. The first owner of the book ? Snapes mother ? was in the same year as Tom Riddle. Tom ? extremely good looking, popular boy, undoubtedly the star- student of his time - he was probably a magnet for many girls. Snapes mother was far from beautiful. Being a great sportsman she had to be energetic and determined person. Let's imagine that she tried to get Tom's attention using love- potion, in the same way as R. Vane did. Possible Tom's response - curse ? to marry poor, nasty Muggle. Then ? Shape's miserable childhood, poverty. At the particular moment Snape might get information about all this story from his mother. All family disasters have been caused by the Voldemorts curse. That's might be Snapes turning point ? wish to destroy Voldemort that based on pure hate. ---- Here is one more thought: We know now that Lily Evans was a great Potion Student. The HBP's comments show that Snape was extraordinary good too. Was there rivalry? Was there deeply hidden in Snape attraction to Lily? Why Voldemort didn't want to kill her? Did he promissed something to Snape - to the person who brought him a prophecy. Why Dumbledore so trusted Snape. Maybe Snape turned to him when he realized that Lily's life is in the great danger. And he, Snape proposed a way of trapping of the Dark Lord. ML From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 18:58:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:58:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133907 Ersatz Harry: ...edited... Was this the real reason that Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry won't take Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he won't have bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will get Harry to take the class without a text and will create an excuse to put Snape's old text in his hands. Feels like a bit much. Any thoughts? Juli now: Dumbledore "needs" Slughorn back because he needs the conversation he had with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes, it's crucial to the whole battle against Voldemort. Why would Dumbledore want Harry to lean Snape's invented Dark curses? I don't see why, it was an accidental event. > (2) Way back in Chapter Two (Spinner's End), we have Narcissa Malfoy demonstrating behavior most unlike that of the typical DE, displaying what appears to have been real emotion -- love, we can say -- for son Draco. Will there be some parallel between Lily's love for Harry and Narcissa's love for Draco that leads to a Draco redemption of some kind? Juli: What proof do you have that Narcissa is a DE? AFAIK she's married to a DE, not one herself (she wasn't in the graveyard, nor at the MoM...). If a person is capable of love, then s/he isn't evil (IMO), Why was Draco trying to kill DD? because he loves his parents, he wanted to do whatever he could in order to keep them save. The same goes for Narcissa, she'll do whatever it takes to secure Draco's wellbeing. Maybe if Narcissa stood in front of LV like Lily did, then Draco could get the same kind of protection Harry has. But I don't see this happening. If LV wants to kill Draco, he doesn't need to go to his place, he's just to call Draco (via the Dark Mark), and AK him, quite simple actually. Just my opinion, Juli From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 21 19:01:13 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:01:13 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: <4ff5b992050721113715c60239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133908 > Ray said: > > Another thing that bothers me, though ... Snape with his strict > > interpretations of Hogwarts' rules (at least when Harry is around) does not strike me > > as the kind who would write in his textbook, > > Are we absolutely sure the handwriting in the book is Snape's and not > Eileen's? I think we're meant to believe that it's Snape's. As > intelligent as Snape seems to be, it's hard to imagine he would have > to write any of that information down for later. > > Perhaps he struggled as much as any other Hogwarts student at the > time, wrote his notes in his books by necessity. > Perhaps he had to write them down because the material came from > someone else to begin with. > > -mgm mgm - I do believe it was Snape's book and his own notes and spells. Just because Snape is "by the book" as a teacher, doesn't mean as that is the way he was as a teenager. I know I do not have the same habits today that I had as a kid. Also, he has to set a **good** example to his students...cough, cough...I know, he's a nasty git...but when you cut thru the sarcasm, he is a very good Professor in the subjects he teaches. Also, as an adult, if Snape is still a good guy and is still a spy, he isn't playing by any strict rules here - he has to be very inventive to make sure his cover isn't blown colebiancardi From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:02:44 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:02:44 -0000 Subject: No Hogwarts for Harry in book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133909 Rowling said something illuminating in a recent interview when she was talking about Luna's commentary at the Quidditch match: "You know, that was the last Quidditch match. I knew as I wrote it that it was the last time I was going to be doing a Quidditch match. To be honest with you, Quidditch matches have been the bane of my life in the Harry Potter books. They are necessary in that people expect Harry to play Quidditch, but there is a limit to how many ways you can have them play Quidditch together and for something new to happen." So apparently Hogwarts will not open next year, or at least Harry meant it when he said he won't go back even if it is open because if the school was open and Harry was there I think we'd see Quidditch. Sounds like book 7 will be rather different from the previous 6. Eggplant From slmuth at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:58:02 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:58:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's motives (was Re: Why did Snape react so angrily) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133910 Denis: > Incidently, I think Harry bears some of the responsibility for Snape's > turning.... > What reason has Harry given Snape to continue suffering indignity > after indignity by working for the good side? What's in it for Snape? > > Nothing. > > Whereas by killing DD, Snape earns the eternal gratitude of Voldy and > the Malfoy family and Snape gets off on respect. All he has to do is > sacrifice the one person on the good side who always stood by him.... > > Nobody is going to feel good about that - but I suspect Snape will > rationalize it away, somehow. > > DG Janeway: This is a really nice analysis of Snape's motives in turning, and of Harry's contribution to those motives. I've had the same thought, that whatever experiences and emotions Snape may have had in his life that drew him to the "good" side, they were overwhelmed by his hatred for James, refreshed and strengthened by his growing hatred for Harry. I think that Snape's failure to understand Harry's true power is evidence of both his LV-like reasoning, and of his faulty assessment of where his best interests lie. In Spinners End he says "...It became apparent to me very quickly that [Harry] had no extraordinary talent at all... He is mediocre to the last degree..." (p 31). And while he could be lying to Bella here, he says the same thing to Harry in OOP: "...Potter...you are neither special nor important..." (p 591) "You are lazy and sloppy, Potter..." (p 593) etc. By contrast, DD tells Harry that he is remarkable for being able to love after everything that has happened to him, and that "You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry" (p 509). So Snape has had direct access to to Harry, as well as to DD's thinking on Harry's power, and he still doesn't get it... Just like LV, Harry has a power that Snape "knows not." I think this contributes to Snape's decision to take the vow to kill DD if necessary at Spinner's End. I think the text shows that he has come to believe that the "Good" side is too weak and can't defeat the "Dark" side. First he says that Harry has no special powers, then he says that "Dumbledore has been a great wizard... however... Dumbledore is growing old... his reactions are slower than they once were." (p 31). Last, he contemplates how "If Draco succeeds... he will be honored above all others." (p 33) I think Draco is right when he says Snape wants to steal his glory -- Snape wants it to be him who is honored above all others. So, when Narcissa asks for the UV, he agrees. DD can no longer protect him, the "Chosen One" has no chance against LV, and Snape can finally receive his props if he takes this moment to turn traitor. Of course, those believing in Good!Snape will see all of this as lies told for Bella's benefit, but given Snape's later actions, I think it provides the most credible character arc. It will be fun to see which way JKR takes this! Janeway From jlcaron at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:02:43 2005 From: jlcaron at gmail.com (jlcaron at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:02:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape in the daylight?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16250F9C-2841-43F9-AD4E-DB20CA97AC17@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133911 > Kristin: > I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen > Snape in the daylight? He always had the curtains closed in the > poitions room and then did the same when he moved to the dada room. > it seems to me that he is always in the dark. what is that about?? > could he have some vampire tendencies? I realize this is a stretch. > just curious. I am also wondering if we know what Snape's patronus > is and what his boggart turns into? These were hits given on a > website. Presumably in Book One when Snape refereed the Quidditch match, he was in daylight. And possibly some of the times he "flitted in and out" of 12 Grimmauld Place in Book Five. I'm pretty sure we've seen Snape out and about in the daytime before, even if he prefers his dark dungeons. (I don't have my books with me so I can't check for other possibilities, but the Quidditch match, off the top of my head, seems like a likely candidate.) jlc. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:01:36 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:01:36 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: <20050721153206.17525.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133912 Melanie says: You know this hasn't been discussed but everyone has been talking about oh poor Harry and Hermione shippers (I am one but I never expected it to actually happen and I think that is how many of the shippers felt so we are fine). > > But...I do wish to express concern for the Sirius and Remus shippers. I did call that one I think the Remus/Tonks thing was the only prediction that I did actually get right. LOL > > ~Melanie Casmir says: I am glad to hear that...I have my own delights that will never be. I was more concerned about some of the die hardians who were really lashing out on other sites. It got kind of ugly and I just wanted to acknowledge the pain for those that internalized that relationship so much. Still, these people are far better off than the H/Hr shippers who are insisting there is still a chance (like Ron getting killed or something). A funny person wrote that the title of the next HP book will be titled "Harry Potter and the Sunken Ship". I am curious as to how JKR is going to end it all...it seems there is so much to fit into one more book.... I do hope she is able to spend a hair more time developing the relationships, though, in the next one. Not looking for a romance novel, just emotional gratification. From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:01:36 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has Voldemort already used one of the Horcruxes? In-Reply-To: <1121878174.5117.42019.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050721190136.19063.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133913 Mhersheybar wrote: "Do you think it is possible that VD has already "used" one of his Horcruxes?" Morgan here: No, I don't think one has been "used," though two have been desroyed (diary and the ring), and one possibly destroyed (the locket). When LV tried to kill Harry, LV's body was destroyed and left the soul floating alone. The soul was not destroyed. There is some disucssion of this in Book 4 where LV is chastising Wormtail for taking so long to find him. LV had to cast around just as his soul until he had a wizard to help him recreate his body. There are still 4 horcruxes remaining: LV himself, something of Ravenclaw's, the Hufflepuff cup, and something of Gryffindor's (guess). --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 21 19:09:48 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:09:48 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: The remaining Horcruxes References: Message-ID: <42DFF2FC.000001.03832@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 133914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > So if we are to agree that 4 Horcurxes are objects from the four > houses, a fifth is the gaunt ring and a sixth is Voldemort himself > that still leaves the seventh and final Horcrux missing... > > I'm putting my money on Harry at the moment. Rachel responds: How about Nagini? I think she might have one, and he might not have anything from GG. Donna asks: I'm thinking the last horcrux is in Harry because, and please forgive me from working from a faulty memory, we know that LV transferred some of his powers to Harry when he tried to AK baby Harry but doesn't it say somewhere that LV also transferred a small part of himself into Harry? Donna Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Adult education Organizational culture Harry potter book YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:14:53 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:14:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133915 "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Was this the real reason that > Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry won't take > Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he won't have > bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will get Harry to > take the class without a text and will create an excuse to put Snape's > old text in his hands. Feels like a bit much. Any thoughts? zgirnius replies: I agree that it seems ridiculous that Snape was made DADA Master and replaced by Slughorn at Potions just so Harry could get the book. Or even, just so Harry could continue in Potions. (Having McGonagall arrange proivate tutoring would seem a simplker way to preceed if that is very important for sonme as yet unrevealed resaon...) I assume you have read at least some of the very numerous Snape threads with the various theories regarding long-laid plans of DD and Snape. If we assume that for whatever reason DD expected Snape to leave the school at the end of the Book 6 school year, *this* would be a reason to give him DADA. Snape has alwasy wanted it, but DD had refused in order to keep him around (the DADA position is cursed, as we learn...) Note that it is not necessary to believe Snape is good to accept such a theory. DD could have had a plan not involving his own murder by Snape which would require Snape to leave the school. Maybe he hoped Snape would be of use in ferreting out the locations fo other Horcruxes or someting if he were in more regular contact with LV, as just one possible theory. At any rate, then the book getting into Harry's hands would just be a "side benefit" to someone, as it were. A "good Snape" might hope the spells would help Harry learn better duelling skills, which still seem below the level of say, Snape himself. A "bad Snape" might hope to have a corrupting effect on Harry by tricking him into learning more Dark magic, perhaps? Lots of possible reasons, anyway. Ersatz Harry again: > (2) Way back in Chapter Two (Spinner's End), we have Narcissa Malfoy > demonstrating behavior most unlike that of the typical DE, displaying > what appears to have been real emotion -- love, we can say -- for son > Draco. Will there be some parallel between Lily's love for Harry and > Narcissa's love for Draco that leads to a Draco redemption of some kind? zgirnius: I could see that, certainly Draco also seems not to be prime DE material. Although what I really want to know is, what is it with Cissy and Snape?! Why did she think he would try to help her? Why did he take the UV?? (more love?! Snape?) I just really want to get my hands on Book 7 now... From pkdawson at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:17:30 2005 From: pkdawson at gmail.com (Patrick Dawson) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:17:30 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > Wow! Emerson is catching the heat from the H-Hr shippers at > Mugglenet.com. Some of those shippers are also lashing out at Rowling > and threatening never to read another Harry Potter book again... > > Grapes sour much? > > Milz That's just silly. I guess you could call me a H/Hr shipper, though that's mostly because I never liked Ron. But really, it's been glaringly obvious since GoF and OotP that canon was R/Hr. I can't believe that anyone is surprised by this. ~ PKD From rebekahid at comcast.net Thu Jul 21 19:16:56 2005 From: rebekahid at comcast.net (Bekki) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:16:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and the purpose of Slughorn being Potions professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133917 >Juli now: Dumbledore "needs" Slughorn back because he needs the > conversation he had with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes, it's crucial to > the whole battle against Voldemort. Bekki: But why was Slughorn a Potions teacher instead of a DADA teacher? Maybe: 1) Slughorn's frequent comments about Lily's potions abilities are somehow significant/ revealing. 2) Slughorn needs to be at Hogwarts in the next book. However, Harry doesn't plan to return to Hogwarts. 3) Harry needs a Potions NEWT to become an auror, and Snape wouldn't let anyone without an O OWL in the class. However, J.K. Rowling made up this restriction herself! 4) I've heard people say it's proof that Dumbledore knows Snape will only be here this year: there is a plan for him to go "deep uncover." 5) A horcrux sounds more like something a DADA professor would know about than a Potions professor unless, as I've read other people suggest, the creation of a Horcrux is connected to a Potion. 6) As Ersatz Harry said, it's a way for Harry to get the Half Blood Prince's book. Howevever, I wonder how would this have been managed if the HBP strand was part of CoS. Or is there some other reason? Bekki From jlcaron at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:07:23 2005 From: jlcaron at gmail.com (jlcaron at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:07:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: <13d.179b63ee.3010fd53@aol.com> References: <13d.179b63ee.3010fd53@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133918 > Jody: > The one thing that I was hoping would bring Harry, Ron and Hermione > back to > Hogwarts, at least temporarily, is the fact that they don't have > their license > to Apparate yet. Ron failed his (conveniently for this storyline) > and Hermione > and Harry were not yet of age in time for the first test. Actually, Hermione passed her Appartion test. She and Ron took it at the same time (in Hogsmeade, when he left behind half an eyebrow). When they got back, she tells Harry that she passed. From Chapter 22, After the Burial: "Ron and Hermione returned in the late afternoon. 'Harry!' cried Hermione as she climbed through the portrait hole. 'Harry, I passed.' 'Well done!' he said. 'And Ron?' 'He ? he just failed,' whispered Hermione, as Ron came slouching into the room looking most morose." (HPB2/US) I agree, though, that Appartion will probably be necessary if they're going to be searching for the horcruxes in Book 7. jlc From judisimecek at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:28:43 2005 From: judisimecek at yahoo.com (iadoreharry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:28:43 -0000 Subject: In Essence Divided Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133919 Anyone remember in OOTP when Harry has the vision of Arthur being injured by the snake, DD consults some sort of instrument on his desk and sort of mumbles to himself "But in essence divided" or separate or something like that? That makes me think Harry could be a Horcrux but is his own person, sort of an extension of LV, but divided. Way out there...... The whole book is driving me crazy keeping me up at night, having dreams. How can a work of fiction do that?!?! Judisimecek From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 19:42:31 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:42:31 -0000 Subject: Snape in the daylight?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kristinglas" wrote: > Hi there- > > I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen > Snape in the daylight? He always had the curtains closed in the > poitions room and then did the same when he moved to the dada room. > it seems to me that he is always in the dark. what is that about?? could he have some vampire tendencies? I realize this is a stretch. just curious. I am also wondering if we know what Snape's patronus is and what his boggart turns into? These were hits given on a website. > > Kristin This has been debated before and it hasn't been resolved in the Potterverse as of yet. Snape does lurk in the corridors at night, likes to keep his room dark, and I loved the fact that in the "Spinner's End" the trio toasted with "bloodred" wine. Not to mention how Snape's cloak tends to billow when there isn't any wind and the quips Ron has made regarding Snape and his bat-like tendencies. Then again, it could just be a red-herring. I don't think your belief is a stretch at all. I believe that in addition to being the "Half-blood Prince", Snape may also be "Half-vampire", which is why he can be out in the daytime. He is an incredible potions master, so perhaps he has concocted a potion that allows him to be out during the day (much like the wolfsbane potion). Just my thoughts... smilingator From michael.genesis at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:38:48 2005 From: michael.genesis at gmail.com (Michael McHenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: References: <4ff5b992050721113715c60239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ff5b9920507211238601c3307@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133921 Ray said: > > Another thing that bothers me, though ... Snape with his strict > > interpretations of Hogwarts' rules (at least when Harry is around) does not strike me > > as the kind who would write in his textbook, colebiancardi said: > Just because Snape is "by the book" as a teacher, doesn't mean as that > is the way he was as a teenager. I know I do not have the same habits > today that I had as a kid. I actually never considered Snape all that much of a "by the book" sort of guy the way you might think of McGonagle or Hermione. He only enforces rules strictly with regard to HP in order to torture him. (except when he nearly kills Malfoy with Snape's spell) He's much more lax with Malfoy. However, you certainly wouldn't expect Snape to write on school property. The book was his property, however, and there was no reason for him not to make notes on it. -mgm From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:58:41 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:58:41 -0000 Subject: Snape in the daylight?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133922 Kristin wrote: > > I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen Snape in the daylight? > could he have some vampire tendencies? smilingator replied: > This has been debated before and it hasn't been resolved in the > Potterverse as of yet. > I don't think your belief is a stretch at all. I believe that in > addition to being the "Half-blood Prince", Snape may also be > "Half-vampire", which is why he can be out in the daytime. He is an > incredible potions master, so perhaps he has concocted a potion that allows him to be out during the day (much like the wolfsbane potion). Dungrollin: Sorry to burst your bubble, but JKR has now shot this theory down *twice*. First here: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling: Erm... I don't think so. Secondly here: http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml JKR: It's when people get really off the wall ? it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. Sorry, Dungrollin From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 21 20:05:34 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:05:34 -0000 Subject: Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133923 So, what about Kreacher? Is his part of the HP saga pretty much over? If he could be ordered to live at Hogwarts by new master Harry, why didn't it occur to anyone in OoP to send him to Hogwarts? It would have removed him from Grimmauld Place and thus shut off whatever knowledge he might have gleaned from skulking around listening to and observing the various Order members who spent time there. It's not a big deal, I'm sure, in the grand scope of the books, but it's one of those little things that niggle at me. Marianne, who wishes Harry had simply fed Kreacher to the giant squid From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 20:07:45 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:07:45 -0000 Subject: Feminism , Ginny, and Hermione/Quidditch comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133924 > Kelly L.: > > My take on Ginny's comment about Quidditch was just that she was > personally offended about something Hermione had accidentally implied > about Ginny's Quidditch abilities. I don't have the book in front of > me, but IIRC Hermione had said something to the effect that Gryffindor > was sunk because Harry was not going to be playing. Ginny snapped at > her because she knew that she, Ginny, would be substituting as Seeker, > and felt that Hermione was saying Ginny wasn't up to the task. > My take was that Ginny had been sticking up for Harry regarding the Bloody Draco Curse, and she was ticked off that Hermione would then try to use Quidditch as another way to dig at Harry for getting into trouble. It was as if she was pretending to be concerned with Quidditch when we all know she has never understood the obsession with it - which Ginny certainly does. Ginny is basically saying "don't pretend that you actually care about what happens in Quidditch." Which isn't very fair since she's always supported them even when she couldn't understand their devotion to the game - she cared enough to Confund McCluggen. - davenclaw From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 20:11:18 2005 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:11:18 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: <4ff5b99205072111022521f70f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133925 Michael McHenry wrote: > Snape is protecting Harry. > (begin circle-back logic) > Snape is upset *because* the boy he is protecting for the cause he > represents is calling him a coward in the midst of extremely painful > circumstances. > > JKR wants the reader to doubt Snape to make Harry's anger look even > more justified. Harry is supposed to love, not hate. My guess is > that this will be a major theme of book 7. Anyhow, if Snape really > was ESE, she wouldn't have revealed it in chapter 2, but at the tower. > > Another theory: Snape has two tattoos. On his forearm is the dark > mark. On his chest in two-inch high print are the words "Red > Herring". > > -mgm Jen responds: Good point about how Harry is supposed to love, not hate, which also brought to mind something I read in the recent interview transcript on mugglenet.com about JKR saying that now "it's personal" between Snape and Harry. How plausible is it for LV to somehow use Harry's hatred of Snape to his advantage? To try to get Harry to come over to the "dark side"? Snape becomes the object of Harry's attention/obsession, he somehow corners a defenseless Snape (contrived by LV), he draws on power that he could only access through hate to hurt Snape, he comes to understand why LV and the DE are attracted to the Dark Arts...then he remembers "Snape's Worst Memory", his own past, all the things Dumbledore has said about Love, etc., etc. - and he relents and repents and, with Snape's assistance, overcomes LV. Or something like that. I must admit, I would love to see Snape redeemed (or justified). From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 20:15:59 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:15:59 -0000 Subject: Apparation Test at MOM was Re: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlcaron at g..." wrote > The one thing that I was hoping would bring Harry, Ron and > Hermione back to Hogwarts, at least temporarily, is the fact that > they don't have their license to Apparate yet. Well Ron and Harry (Hermione did pass) can take the test at the Ministry of Magic as there is a test centre there: OotP UK Paperback p 119 - Chapter 7 The Ministry of Magic [Harry and Arthur are in the lift on the way to Harry's hearing] "Level Six, Department of Magical Transportation, incorporating the Floo Network Authority, Broom Regulatory Control, Portkey Office and Apparation Test Centre." I am starting to belive the worst that they really are not going back to school. Karen From antigone_q at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 20:17:49 2005 From: antigone_q at yahoo.com (Antigone Q) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R.A.B. in book 6 & 5 In-Reply-To: <1121972578.10616.26810.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050721201749.36769.qmail@web60321.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133927 My husband points out to me that in Order of the Phoenix when the family is cleaning out Grimauld Place, they find an old locket "which no one could open." My vote is not only for Regulus Black being R.A.B., but for Harry having ownership of the Horcrux in Sirus' old house without even knowing it. Rebecca Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:24:14 -0000 From: "phanbu" Subject: Re: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mg_mchenry" wrote: [- snip -] > > I also think that Harry was hasty in assuming the locket that fell out > of DD's pocket was the one that DD pulled from the basin - DD may have > had 10 lockets in his pocketses. > > -mgm Even if AD had a pocketful of lockets, I don't think that he had many with notes addressed to the Dark Lord. Unless you are considering that AD is RAB, and that in his weakened state, while maintaining a fire ring, he forgot to leave the locket, with note, that he prepared for LV to find later. But I can't thing of any way to tie those initials to AD. Plus I think his note would have been simply addressed to "Tom", and not to the Dark Lord. Patrick's input: I was all for RAB being Regulus, then when Borgin and Blotts came up I went ooh! Then I read the interview with Jo on mugglenet and the second section touches on RAB. MA is Melissa from Leaky Cauldron. vAntigone Q I think people are made to make patterns, to see them with delight. Defy entropy! - Greer Gilman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daveshardell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 20:28:07 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:28:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133928 wrote: > At the same time, I'm having trouble seeing how this little feat > could > realistically have been engineered. Was this the real reason that > Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry won't take > Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he won't have > bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will get Harry to > take the class without a text and will create an excuse to put > Snape's old text in his hands. Feels like a bit much. Any thoughts? My thoughts are that if DD did do this on purpose - including putting Snape in a position where he knows he won't last a year - it wasn't to get Snape's book in Harry's hands; it was to enable Harry to become an Auror. - davenclaw From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jul 21 20:35:13 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:35:13 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Dawson" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > > Wow! Emerson is catching the heat from the H-Hr shippers at > > Mugglenet.com. Some of those shippers are also lashing out at Rowling > > and threatening never to read another Harry Potter book again... > > > > Grapes sour much? > > > > Milz > > That's just silly. I guess you could call me a H/Hr shipper, though > that's mostly because I never liked Ron. But really, it's been > glaringly obvious since GoF and OotP that canon was R/Hr. I can't > believe that anyone is surprised by this. > > ~ PKD Oh, I've read some doozies on that site today! Everything from Rowling "suddenly sprung" R-H on us to the same old, "it's always been ambiguous in the books" argument. Makes me wonder if I'm reading the same books they have been.... Milz From michael.genesis at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:55:10 2005 From: michael.genesis at gmail.com (Michael McHenry) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:55:10 -0400 Subject: Someone who knows why DD trusted Snape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ff5b99205072111554a19b033@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133930 cara_vzq wrote: > ...there is a part in the book that threw up a questions for me, over why Dumbledore trusted Snape....`I should think not,' said a snide voice; Phineas Nigellus was evidently only pretending to be asleep. Dumbledore ignored him. (P336, UK Edition) > > Could this mean that Phineas knows the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape? Phineas, who has before moved between his portrait at Hogwarts to Grimmaud Place, which Harry now owns, and will possibly be visiting in Book 7?. How safe it is for Harry to visit the Black home depends on what happened to the secret after Dumbledore's death. Of course he'll have to go anyway. I really think you're onto something, here. It's important that Phineas was the one who said this. I think you could weave a story of Regulus being tied to Snape's redemption and tie that into the theory of RAB being transfigured into Buckbeak for his own safety. -mgm From bean3769 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:24:06 2005 From: bean3769 at yahoo.com (Marisa Crosset) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:24:06 -0000 Subject: Yet another Horcrux theory post... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly L." wrote: > > (3) Hufflepuff's cup: Hepzibah Smith Had an idea about the cup -- doesn't Tom Riddle have a trophy/service award in the trophy room? Will have to consult COS to see if it is described, but it might be possible that, at some point, he swapped the original cup (on trophy) for the Hufflepuff cup that is the Horcrux. Dunno how or when. Perhaps during "interview" with DD. Sorry if this has already been mentioned or makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Just throwing out ideas. I do think there is something to the '7' thing though--seven tasks in PS/SS, 7 books in the series, 7 pieces of Voldy's soul... Marisa From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 21 20:39:11 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? References: <1121972578.10616.26810.m30@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c58e34$407f8630$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 133932 Cathy D wrote: > "As you may know, it is > usually impossible to Aparate or Disapparate within > Hogwarts. Ashley said: "I'm not saying I fully support the theory that someone can apparate, but remember when Harry was looking for Draco on the Maurader's Map in HBP? Every time he would look for Malfoy while Malfoy was in the Room of Requirements, Malfoy would disappear." Cathy again: I personally think he disappears from the Maurauders map simply because of the enchantments on the RoR. He doesn't disapparate/apparate..he just goes into room and is gone from the map. " That's where he's been sneaking off to! (RoR) That's where he's doing... whatever he's doing! And I bet that's why he's been disappearing off the map - come to think of it *I've never seen the Room of Requirement on there!*" Then Hermione says " I think it'll be part of the magic of the Room, if you need it to be unplottable, it will be." Ashley asked: "Also, do you think Harry will be able to get the book back? Do you think the book is visible from the closet in Burke and Borgin's or only visible from the closet in the Room of Requirements??" I don't see why he can't...except that they may close Hogwarts; he says he's not going back there; and why would he want the potions book now that he *knows* it belonged to Snape? I don't think the book is visible from the Vanishing cabinet. When HP went into the RoR to get rid of is book, it was described as cathedral-like with lots of alleyways and whatnot. HP went down one then turned into another and put his book into a cabinet. Along the way he saw the vanishing cabinet. I'd thing (JMO) the only thing you could see from the cabinet in B&B would be the inside of the cabinet in the RoR. CathyD From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 20:45:50 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Melissa) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:45:50 -0000 Subject: Vanishing Cabinet/Flint? In-Reply-To: <001301c58e34$407f8630$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133933 When HP went into the RoR to get rid of is book, it was > described as cathedral-like with lots of alleyways and whatnot. HP went > down one then turned into another and put his book into a cabinet. Along > the way he saw the vanishing cabinet. I'd thing (JMO) the only thing you > could see from the cabinet in B&B would be the inside of the cabinet in the > RoR. > > CathyD\ I suspect that Draco (like Harry) asked the room for a place to hide the cabinet. The ROR opened to the place it always did for any student who made the request. What Harry should have been wondering is why would someone want to hide it away. Melissa From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Jul 21 20:47:28 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:47:28 -0000 Subject: Snape - what about the unbreakable vow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > [M]y big problem is the Unbreakable Vow. For this to have > all been a plan, DD must have told Snape that if he needed > to kill him in order to stay close to Voldemort, then he > should do so.... But the problem I have with this is that DD > couldn't have known that he would be so weakened and close to > death at the time that Draco confronted him. So it was > possible, due to the vow, that Snape might have had to kill > a perfectly healthy and powerful Dumbledore. Really the most you can say in your hypothetical is that Snape might have had to *try* to kill a perfectly healthy and powerful Dumbledore. I think we can all agree that Snape would not have succeeded in such an attempt. Indeed, a perfectly healthy and powerful Dumbledore likely would have the wherewithal to avert any confrontation in which Snape would even have been put to the choice. In similar vein to the self-fulfilling nature of the Prophecy, the hypothetical bargain between Snape and Dumbledore would only come into operation at such a time as Malfoy was actually able to corner a weakened Dumbledore, i.e., the situation in which it the bargain was worth making. -- Matt From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Jul 21 20:47:33 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:47:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > (1) I found it perplexing that Snape's old Potions text would make > it in the bin of old ones available for class use. Perhaps Snape > liked to keep it close at hand when he was the Potions professor, > but something about its getting into Harry's hands feels a bit > contrived. I can't imagine that Snape would inadvertently leave it > lying around. Why not? There's no reason for him to hide it. It's in a jumble of stuff in the classroom he'd had for so long. > At the same time, I'm having trouble seeing how this little feat > could realistically have been engineered. Was this the real > reason that Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry > won't take Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he > won't have bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will > get Harry to take the class without a text and will create an > excuse to put Snape's old text in his hands. Feels like a bit > much. Any thoughts? I think you have the cart before the horse. :-) The key is that Snape gets the DADA job. This is crucial to the plan to bring down Voldemort. This allows Voldemort to believe that he has completely duped DD, for there is no way DD would give an ally of Voldemort's such a sensitive job at this time with Voldemort clearly on the rise. Also, removing Snape from the Potions classroom but giving Harry Voldemort's book allows us to see that Harry can indeed learn what Snape has to teach--once the setting is changed. It's like Snape is a terrible teacher, but an excellent tutor. I wonder if that is a metaphor/parallel we will see again in #7 as Harry and Snape both turn to avenge themselves on Voldemort. As they (Harry and Snape) were in battle at the end of #6, Snape deflected and belitted Harry's attempts just as he did in the classroom. However, they both know that Harry did learn a lot from the HBP. I will be interesting to see how this teaching transformation takes place in #7. jujube From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 21 20:49:06 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:49:06 -0400 Subject: Fifth Years Message-ID: <001e01c58e35$a36c6cd0$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 133936 I've been wondering what will happen to the current years' fifth years (Ginny's) class.. They did not get to take their OWLs and so are not 'qualified wizards' in any way. It's obvious that a wizard/witch is qualified after the OWLs as Hagrid is not qualified (expelled in 3rd year) and yet Fred and George are not being stopped from doing magic having taken then OWLs but not NEWTs. If, as is speculated and not yet confirmed, Hogwarts will not be opening again, how will the fifth years, so close to being qualified, ever become qualified witches/wizards? Heaven knows - at least I'm pretty sure - Ginny Weasley will turn up to fight beside Harry at some point in book 7. She's not given up on him to this point and I will be very disappointed in her if she stays away just because he said so. CathyD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 20:49:58 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:49:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133937 On 7/21/05, plittleuk wrote: > Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else (apologies if I have missed > it) but the manner in which Snape reacted to Harry calling hime a > coward when he was trying to escape the grounds seemed very OTT to me. > > Think about it - if he was really desperate to escape the scene as > quickly as possible, having someone (particularly Harry) question his > courage would be hardly likely to slow him down would it ? > > The reaction "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD...." in my eyes could be > construed along the lines of 'if only you understood the things that I > have done, am doing and will do for you, you would not call me a > coward'. > > This was the biggest indicator for me that Snape is on the side of > good - I found it a very odd thing to make a point of taking Harry to > task on at such a time when he had to get away. > > > plittleuk Just one theory, but I think it's plausible. After Snape tells Voldemort about the Prophecy, Voldemort tells Snape to go kill the Potters. Snape discovers that it isn't in him to murder people in cold blood like that and Voldemort calls him a coward and does it himself. Perhaps it is then that Snape goes to Dumbledore with an offer to spy partly because he realizes he's not willing to be as evil as Voldemort and partly because he wants to prove to himself and everyone else that he isn't a coward. And then for the child he despises, and whose life he has saved or tried to save on more than one occasion to call him a coward after he has done the least cowardly thing of his life, well, it would probably send me off the end too. -- Gregory Lynn From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 21 20:51:51 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:51:51 -0400 Subject: Has Voldemort already used one of the Horcruxes? References: <1121978853.1364.5462.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002701c58e36$05d12d20$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 133938 Morgan said: "There are still 4 horcruxes remaining: LV himself, something of Ravenclaw's, the Hufflepuff cup, and something of Gryffindor's (guess)." You forgot Nagini. What I'd like to know is why DD never commented that he may have made more since his re-birthing, shortly after which he would have found out from Malfoy about the diary being destroyed. What's prevented LV from 'topping them up to six' again? CathyD TrentonON -- From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 20:53:01 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:53:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and the purpose of Slughorn being Potions professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133939 Bekki wrote: >>But why was Slughorn a Potions teacher instead of a DADA teacher? Maybe: 5) A horcrux sounds more like something a DADA professor would know about than a Potions professor unless, as I've read other people suggest, the creation of a Horcrux is connected to a Potion.<< HunterGreen: Its possible that *any* teacher in Hogwarts could know what Horcruxes are, but he asked Slughorn because Slughorn was his head-of-house and he thought it would be easiest to get the information out of him. Bekki: >>6) As Ersatz Harry said, it's a way for Harry to get the Half Blood Prince's book. Howevever, I wonder how would this have been managed if the HBP strand was part of CoS.<< HunterGreen: I wonder that as well. I can't see how the Half-Blood Prince plotline would fit at all into CoS (and that's probably why it was moved out), but it could have worked a similar way, with Harry losing his potions book this time instead of having not purchased one, but I don't like the idea of Snape being the one who gave him the HBP book, so I don't know how it would have worked, maybe him finding it in the library or something? Bekki: >>Or is there some other reason?<< HunterGreen: Well, the simple reason that Slughorn didn't teach DADA, is that he's a potions teacher. Dumbledore wanted the information from him, so he called him to teach potions and finally gave Snape the DADA postion (how he thought Snape would avoid the curse on it, is anyone's guess). >From outside the books, my feeling is that the Half-Blood Prince plot required someone besides Snape to give Harry the book, since Snape would have either not given Harry a book he knew to be his, or that he would have figured out that Harry was using his potions advice a lot sooner. The other things that Slughorn did (the slug club, telling Harry about Lily) could have been done if he was the DADA professor. (Though, I do find it interesting that *two* heads of Slytherin house have been potions professors, not DADA, which would seem the natural choice, hmm perhaps its just that Snape began teaching the year that Slughorn retired?) Plus, wasn't it fun to see someone else teaching potions? -Rebecca / HunterGreen From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:16:42 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:16:42 -0000 Subject: RAB-Have Question In-Reply-To: <3def328f050721104176054b00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133940 > aussie says: > > > > > ... although others have suggested RAB is one ot the Borin and > > Blotts shop owners from Nocturn Alley. > > > > Patrick's input: > I was all for RAB being Regulus, then when Borgin and Blotts came up I > went ooh! Then I read the interview with Jo on mugglenet and the > second section touches on RAB. MA is Melissa from Leaky Cauldron. > > MA: R.A.B. > JKR: Ohhh, good. > [All laugh.] > JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? > MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? > [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] > JKR: Do you have a theory? > MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. > JKR: Have you now? > MA: Uh-oh. > [Laughter.] > JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. > MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? > JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] > MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? > JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on > the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] > > Take from it what you will, but thought I'd toss that into the ring. > > -- Patrick If the locket ends up at Grimmauld place, wouldn't it have to be Regulus out of the current suspects (Borgin, Bones, Regulus)? Also, I think JKR was playing with us. Either we guessed it, or it's omebody we don't know yet and can't possibly guess. ~Casmir From trekkie at stofanet.dk Thu Jul 21 21:03:03 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:03:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape in the daylight?? References: Message-ID: <002b01c58e37$95a437c0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133941 ----- Original Message ----- From: "dungrollin" To: Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:58 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape in the daylight?? Kristin wrote: > > I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen Snape in the daylight? > could he have some vampire tendencies? Dungrollin: Sorry to burst your bubble, but JKR has now shot this theory down *twice*. JKR: It's when people get really off the wall - it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. Sorry, Dungrollin Yabut.. I just don't AGREE that there's no canon evidence for him being a vampire. On the contrary I think there has been so many hints in that direction that I see red herrings swimming by when JKR responds like that. I dunno.. Personally I'm more of the conviction that Snape's patronus is a bat and/or he's a bat animagus, but I wouldn't MIND him being a vampire either... ~Trekkie From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 20:59:20 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Melissa) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:59:20 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: <001e01c58e35$a36c6cd0$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > I've been wondering what will happen to the current years' fifth years (Ginny's) class.. They did not get to take their OWLs and so are not 'qualified wizards' in any way.<< Yes the current 5th years did take their OWLS. I do not have the exact chapter but its near the end of the book. I want to say right before DD's funeral. Melissa From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 21:00:00 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:00:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and the purpose of Slughorn being Potions professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bekki" wrote: > >Juli now: Dumbledore "needs" Slughorn back because he needs the > > conversation he had with Tom Riddle about Horcruxes, it's crucial to > > the whole battle against Voldemort. > > > Bekki: > > But why was Slughorn a Potions teacher instead of a DADA teacher? Juli again: What I can tell from all the conversations between Harry and Sluggy, he's always been a POTIONS teacher (he even taught Snape), therefore he IS a Potions Master. Snape knows both Potions and DADA, so he can teach either one, but imagine Minerva teaching Herbology or Divination, or Prof. Sprout teaching charms? It just doesn't work. Juli From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 21:03:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:03:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's textbook and the purpose of Slughorn being Potions professor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133944 > HunterGreen: > Well, the simple reason that Slughorn didn't teach DADA, is that he's a > potions teacher. > The other things that Slughorn did (the slug club, telling Harry about > Lily) could have been done if he was the DADA professor. (Though, I do > find it interesting that *two* heads of Slytherin house have been > potions professors, not DADA, which would seem the natural choice, hmm > perhaps its just that Snape began teaching the year that Slughorn > retired?) > Plus, wasn't it fun to see someone else teaching potions? Alla: It sure was, Huntergreen. I have mixed feelings about Slughorn, actually. I mean, he is undoubtedly a good guy, but for some reasons Slug club gave me creeps. I still feel that JKR is not very fond of some type of ambition, I am not sure. But I will forgive Slughorn for many things because of this one line. :-) "Ten points to Gryffindor for sheer cheek" I felt it was a very nice play on Snape's remarks to Harry :-) Besides, appearance of Slughorn, IMO is one more point in favor of Snape actually being on Voldie's side. Because he sort of takes Snape's place. JMO, Alla. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:31:10 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:31:10 -0000 Subject: Someone who knows why DD trusted Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133945 "Cara" wrote: When talking to Dumbledore about Snape Harry says: > > `So, Sir,' said Harry, in what he hoped was a polite, calm > voice, `you > definitely still trust--?' > `I have been tolerant enough to answer that question already' > said > Dumbledore, but he did not sound very tolerant anymore. `My > answer has > not changed.' > `I should think not,' said a snide voice; Phineas Nigellus was > evidently only pretending to be asleep. Dumbledore ignored him. > P336, UK Edition, > > Could this mean that Phineas knows the reason that Dumbledore trusts > Snape? Phineas, who has before moved between his portrait at Hogwarts > to Grimmaud Place, which Harry now owns, and will possibly be visiting > in Book 7 . > There might be potential for an explanation through Phineas. > I personally am undecided as to Snapes allegiance, there are > compelling arguments on each side, though I must admit that I'm > hoping for a good Snape > Sorry if this has been picked up on before, there are so many posts I > can hardly keep up! Cara, when I read that part originally in the book, I had brushed it off as a snide remark from Phineas, but now, I think you are right! Perhaps an unbreakable vow before Phineas? Maybe not, pics don't hold wands...do they? Good going! ~Casmir From easimm at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 21:06:28 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:06:28 -0000 Subject: Snape/Riddle-Voldemort - Who is Snape's Daddy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mark_lants" wrote: > Witherwings wrote: > Anyone else see any significance in the similarities between Snape > and Riddle?...Snapes mother ? was in the same year as Tom > Riddle....Tom ...was probably a magnet for many girls. ... Let's > imagine that she tried to get Tom's attention using love potion, in > the same way as R. Vane did. > > Possible Tom's response - curse ? to marry poor, nasty Muggle. Snorky wrote: Great observations, but perhaps they lead to more shocking revelations. Could Voldemort be Snape's Daddy? Could he have abandoned poor Ms. Prince, whose parents charmed the nearest man who wouldn't have a clue into marrying her, to punish her and to disguise an illegitimate child during an era when illegitimacy was considered a family disgrace? Could Snape now be seeking revenge on Voldemort for his miserable childhood? From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 21:08:39 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:08:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: <20050719234319.16901.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > Of course not. But I don't think you can "figure out" > a nonverbal spell someone else made up. How would you > know what the word that needed to be thought was? > > I think someone (probably MWPP) snuck around and > found/stole it. They then used it frequently or > perhaps just taught it to others, who may well have > used it verbally. > > I have no reason to doubt the pensieve scene there. > Snape surely did not want Harry to see it. I believe > they were bullies. Ah, but... what if NONE of the spells really have specific words that are required. The role of the words is to give confidence that you're doing it right. Maybe that's why Hermione is always good at the spells, and Ron & Neville have trouble (that and the idea of the wand helping magnify or focus the individual's power). The ONLY spell we've seen cast where the caster didn't know what the spell would do was this new one. I smoehow doubt the foreign spellcasters use all the same words either. So Harry got deperate, and decided to use this new spell "against enemies," and the effect was whatever ended up on Harry's mind. Just like the unforgiveable curses, ALL spells require you to really mean it... just like Apparation too - you have to concentrate on what you're doing, and focus. Consider the nunumber of things both Harry and Tom Riddle accomplished before they knew they wee wizards. Tom made his way dont that cliff with 2 children in tow, and it sounds like that required a significant amount of magic. Tom wanted to do it, so he did! It's not like he would have stumbled upon any spell books in the orphanage. Maybe with the potions, it wasn't so much stirring the specific way as hahaving the confidence that doing so would work? Harry already had the ability to brew potions, but always had Snape hovering over him, making him nervous. I don't know if JKR really had that in mind, but maybe the most powerful wizards/witches really don't need to learn any spells, they just need the confidence and creativity to think of an what they want to do. This even fits with the little things Harry did as a child - his mind said "get me away from the Bullies" and he ends up on the roof, a perfect place to get away from the bullies... he lets the snake loose at the zoo... Melinda From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 20:35:21 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:35:21 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Hiding Places Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133948 I'd love to have an ongoing discussion of where everyone thinks the remaining horcruxes are hidden. I came up with one on the drive home from work today, that, in my opinion, makes a LOT of sense. My friend had mentioned to me earlier that when Harry is looking for a place to hide his Potions text from Snape after Sectum-ing Malfoy, he thinks hard on needing "a place to hide his book", near the Room of Requirement. My friend pointed out that, as Harry is searching through the massive pile of things for a place to hide the book, he notices the Vanishing Cabinet. This is, of course, before we find out how Malfoy is using it. Now, if Malfoy, Harry, Trelawney (empties :) ) and countless others used the Room of Requirement as a place to hide things, why not Tom Riddle? I can imagine that if he plumbed the secrets of the castle, he likely knew about the room. Heck, even though I'm not willing to go this far, he could've CREATED the room. So, is it possible Voldemort has hidden a horcrux amidst all that junk? Not many people know about the room, and searching through all of that wouldn't make it easy to find. For that matter, what about other places at Hogwart's? Chamber of Secrets? Slytherin common room? JKR has said that if she could be in any room at Hogwarts, it'd be a room that Harry has been in but doesn't know the importance of it...yet. Could that be the Room of Requirement, or some other room holding a Voldemort horcrux? So many theories, WAY too much time. Someone grab their time turner - 17520 turns should do it. Hokus From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 21 21:14:49 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:14:49 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" wrote: > Yes the current 5th years did take their OWLS. I do not have the exact > chapter but its near the end of the book. I want to say right before > DD's funeral. Yes, I don't remember the exact quote, but it is mentioned that Harry had to limit his outings with Ginny as she was preparing for her OWL's. I can't imagine Hogwarts not opening though - I mean can you picture Hermione not taking her NEWT's? :-) Salit From trekkie at stofanet.dk Thu Jul 21 21:21:47 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:21:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Someone who knows why DD trusted Snape? References: Message-ID: <005d01c58e3a$33837df0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 133950 "Cara" wrote: > There might be potential for an explanation through Phineas. > I personally am undecided as to Snapes allegiance, there are > compelling arguments on each side, though I must admit that I'm > hoping for a good Snape. > Sorry if this has been picked up on before, there are so many posts I > can hardly keep up! Cara, when I read that part originally in the book, I had brushed it off as a snide remark from Phineas, but now, I think you are right! Perhaps an unbreakable vow before Phineas? Maybe not, pics don't hold wands...do they? Good going! ~Casmir I still have this feeling that it was Hagrid that was the witness, if we're going for the "Snape and Dumbledore made an Unbreakable Vow" theory. Hagrid is backing Snape up ALL the time almost to the point of being a total echo of Dumbledore's "I trust Severus Snape" So my guess is that Hagrid KNOWS exactely WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape. ~Trekkie From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 21:18:26 2005 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:18:26 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133951 I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if Harry reminded him of Snape? Possible theories... a) Snape invented the improved potions recipies but never put them into practice in class but passed them on to Lily instead. (Highly, unlikely, since Snape apparently didn't like "mudblood" Lily.) b) Lily found out all the potion improvements and practiced them in class. Snape copied down everything she did in his book. While he had been an average student, he later became a great potions master by imitating Lily. I'd love to know your opinion. Florentine From joecubs66 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 20:43:41 2005 From: joecubs66 at yahoo.com (joecubs66) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:41 -0000 Subject: Hermione in HBP/really Muggleborn? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133952 I haven't seen it discussed here yet. Professor Slughorn asked Hermione if she was related to Hector Dagworth Granger. Is is possible that Hermione has some magic in her bloodline before her. We at least know that there are Grangers who are magical. If Hermione was really a half-blood, could this do anything to influence a future plot. I'm not sure. JR From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu Jul 21 21:31:54 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:54 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Horcrux Hiding Places In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133953 >Hokus: >For that matter, what about other places at Hogwart's? Chamber of >Secrets? Slytherin common room? JKR has said that if she could be >in any room at Hogwarts, it'd be a room that Harry has been in but >doesn't know the importance of it...yet. Could that be the Room of >Requirement, or some other room holding a Voldemort horcrux? Laura: How about the Trophy Room? The medal? The trophy Ron had to polish? Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From ayaneva at aol.com Thu Jul 21 21:43:21 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:43:21 -0000 Subject: The Potions Book: Is Snape *really* the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clio44a" wrote: > > Brief Chronicles now: >SNIP> > All in all I am quite dissappointed about that whole HBP business. > Throughout the book we have that subplot about the mysterious Prince, > and in the end it turns out to be simply a childish pun on Snape's > mother's maiden name. So? Was that significant enough to name that > whole book after the HBP and base the whole promotion campaign on the > question "Who is the half-blood prince?" > > > Clio, I'm going to take a risk and post the following etymological "study" in this thread. Since we're talking about names and all that good stuff. And I'm sick of trying to hunt down what thread this oughta go into. I don't think anyone's posted this yet; I did search, but I might've missed it. Ok, I posted this just a little while ago on Diagon Ally (yup, I'm still trying to post on two sites at once). It kind of ties into exactly what you've just said, which is good because I was hesitant to start a whole new thread or something. I had a thought about the relationship between the etymology of Severus Snape's name, his mother's name (maiden and married), and his father's name. Urrrgh. This is a little long and slightly convoluted, hopefully everyone can follow it. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of the conclusions that I've managed to come up with; I did this mostly because I'm a student who has way too much time on her hands. It was fun, at any rate. I've been trying to find any meaning behind the surname of "Prince." Since we're over-analyzing everything else, I figure why not the name? Since many of the names in HP seem to represent different characteristics of the person who bears the name... This goes all over the place, so bear with me and please offer any ideas. Keep in mind, I'm not actually saying that I think any of this is right...but it is interesting. >From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=p&p=30 under the listing for "Prince." I'm almost certain the html [quote][/quote] tags don't show up here, but I'll leave them so that you know it's a quote from a specific source. I don't think it messes up formatting...does it? *crosses fingers* At least I pulled out all of the other tags during editing. [quote]c.1225, from O.Fr. prince (12c.), from L. princeps (gen. principis) "first, chief, prince," lit. "that takes first" (adj.), from primus "first" (see prime (adj.)) + root of capere "to take" (see capable). Ger. cognate f?rst, from O.H.G. furist "first," is apparently an imitation of the Latin form. Colloquial meaning "admirable or generous person" is from 1911, Amer.Eng. [/quote] Anything? I'm not clever enough to pick up on these things. There has to be a clue to Snape in the "Half-blood prince" title, though. More so than just that it's his mother's last name...I'd like to think so anyway. First of all, Harry compares Snape to Lord Whatchamagig by saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Snape was also ashamed of his parentage and wanted to adopt a title to make himself seem more grandiose. I certainly think Harry is wrong in this. In fact, Snape seemed quite proud that he was a "half-blood Prince." If you're really aiming to make people think that you're Pure Blood, why adopt a title with the phrase "Half-blood" in it? The name Prince *must* be important. I'm thinking that, as with some of the names of other HP characters, the clue to this importance might be found in the actual name. It could be the obvious meaning of the name "Prince" or something else more obsure. I'm looking for the "something else more obsure" at the moment. Furthermore, is his rank within Voldie's circle the only reason that the other DE's listen to him without question? Or is there something else having to do with his geneology? I mean, Lord Doohicky has the Salazar Slytherin heir thing going on and that's why people listened to him from the get-go. Was Snape's adoption of the Half-blood Prince title meant to draw attention to his geneology so that people wouldn't question him? Anyway, on we go. >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_(disambiguation). Prince (from the Latin Princeps) can mean: [quote]...certains member of an elite or ruling class, notably certain rulers, members of reigning dynasties ('prines of the blood') and social equivalents (notably various Princes of the Church); see Prince[/quote] The "princes of the blood" bit has me interested. Anything here? Probably not. This is from Merriam-Webster, 4th definition: [quote]4 : one likened to a prince; especially : a man of high rank or of high standing in his class or profession - prince?ship /'prin(t)s-"ship/ noun[/quote] Could it be as simple as a double meaning between Snape's skill at DA and Potions and his mother's last name? Could be, but why stop the fun right here!? Now, his mother's first name. Eileen, wasn't it? >From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php? search=Helen&searchmode=none A version of the name Helen. I find it interesting that Helen of Troy, from whom the name mostly comes was the cause of a war. Or at least involved in a huge war. But that aside... We've got two main choices for the Irish Eileen here. Even though, it says that Eileen, at some point, became a translation for the Roman Helen. http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng5.html In Irish etymology, Eileen means Bird or Rival, depending. The Roman "Helen" means Torch. I find it interesting that Helen of Troy, from whom the name mostly comes was the cause of a war. Or at least involved in a huge war. Soooo, we've got Bird, Rival, and Torch/Bright One for Eileen. For Prince we have "see above." So if we go with the Merriam-Webster definition number 4 we can figure that Eileen was the best in her class/profession at being a Rival, a bird, or a torch/bright person. I'm goin' for Rival or Bright One here because Bird doesn't make much sense. Rival to whom? She was in the same year as Tom Riddle. Waaahhhh! I can't make any sense of this!!! That Bright One has to mean something...she was the best and that's where Snape got his skills? She married a muggle so she must not have been all that hung up on pureblood nonsense. But perhaps that led to her downfall, keep reading further down. Eileen a juxtaposition to Tom Riddle? I mean, we have Harry/Draco, The Marauders/Snape, Riddle/???. Three major periods and the earliest period has no counter. Where's the protagonist? *drifts completely off topic to gripe and get in a cheap shot* Although, I think The Marauders were the antagonists and Snape was the protagonist. I'm sorry, James and Sirius were, from all appearances, total butts. I would've been the one that people like them picked on. So not cool. *waves Snapeophile flag* *back on point now* Now, Snape's father...http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php? name=tobias. The Tobias thing isn't really all that helpful at first. Any other definition of Tobias says about the same thing. Why does it seem that the first names of Snape's parents are exactly the opposite of the person who bears the name. I mean, Bright One, taken to mean beautiful like the Roman Helen and the other Helen derivatives in Irish mythology (King Arthur), is exactly the opposite of what Eileen Prince was, physically at least. She was described as...ahem...well, she wasn't all that pretty. Now, if we take into account mental abilities...what club was she president of? I keep getting the feeling that she was smart and that's where Snape gets his brains from. And Tobias, if we figure that he's the guy in Snape's memory from OOTP screaming at him(?) and his mother(?), isn't really all that righteous or godly. He seems like a bit of an arse to me. Which is interesting because Severus Snape's name says *exactly* what he is, one way or the other. In fact, depending on which definition of his last name you choose, his name seems to describe *both* schools of thought (good, but not nice versus just plain bad) describing his nature and purpose in the HP books. Does this mean something? Bear with me just a little longer). I can't remember what site it is that has all of the names, but here: Snape, according to the http://www.etymonline.com/index.php? l=s&p=29, means, [quote]"to be hard upon, rebuke, snub," c.1300, from O.N. sneypa "to outrage, dishonor, disgrace."[/quote] But Tobias, from http://www.sacklunch.net/personalnames/T/TobiasorToby.html, means [quote]Tobias or Toby: From the Hebrew tobh-mah, which has been variously rendered "God's goodness" and "distinguished of the Lord."[/quote] *squinches eyes shut in pain* *sigh* As much as it pains me to consider the religious parallels in HP... I know some say that there are some, though I don't see it that way; but let's not rehash. The point is, I'm forced to offer this particular piece of information because it is, in fact, fact. So, without getting hung up on another "religion in HP" discussion, all I can get from the Tobias Snape name are two possibilities: 1) Someone who dishonored/disgraced his standing in the eyes of the lord, in a literal sense, or someone who was devout/upstanding in the community and casting a very unfair and harsh judgement on someone else. Or, more unlikely, Tobias was harshly judged. But hey, could be! 2) The meaning of the name Tobias and Tobias Snape's presumed behavior are just a sad irony. I'm going with this one because it's less convoluted. Either way, Tobias seemed to be casting rather harsh judgement on Eileen (and Severus?), possibly since finding out that Eileen and Severus were magical folk. Magic *is* seen as a sin or sign of possession by the devil or something by some. And that would explain Snape's dislike of muggles and "mudbloods." JKR did say that she was glad no one knew she was a Christian because of how the books ended, so perhaps there is some meaning in the literal translation of "Tobias." I've *no* idea how you could work this into the story, but it would be interesting, to say the least. So, we have a first name contradictory to the character of the person. However, and I hope people are a little familiar with the parts of language, *in addition* to the last name, it describes said person perfectly because the first name what who they are and the last name is what they're doing. Reminds me of the parts of speech actually, Nomitive, Accusative, Dative; see this is what happens when you read HP while learning German. But the grammatical analogy actually does fit, even if it is irrelevant. Anyway... With Eileen, you have someone who *used* to be a very promising person, Bright, Shining, a worthy rival to the best of them, but she got caught up with a really sucky guy in Tobias. So, she was a "Bright One" (first name) and better than most, possibly the best, in many of her endeavors (see last name). But when she married Tobias Snape, the "Bright One" became an "outrage" to her family, maybe "dishonored" and "disgraced" them by marrying a muggle? Her family(?) and her husband(?) rebuked/snubbed her and were hard on her afterwards, but for entirely different reasons. Right-o. So on to Snape; his name etymology is pretty well-known, me thinks. http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/s/severus.html Anyone else thinking there's some familial connection *somewhere* between Severus and Lucius. Come to think of it, does anyone remember the names listed on the family tree tapestry in Book 5 in Grimauld Place? Any "Prince" on it anywhere? Anywhere? "Severus Snape" fits the character's personality perfectly, both the first and last name. Whereas, his parents' names seem to contradict at first glance and only make sense if they're saying something about their intrinsic or original nature and what they end up doing or becoming. An aside, it's almost as if Severus is exactly what you'd get if you put two people together whose characters were twisted away from their original state in the manner described above. And btw, what meaning would we get if Snape's middle name was Tobias? Maybe, a stern, sharp rightous-like person whose purpose it is to rebuke people and keep them in line. Or a stern, sharp disgraceful loser who squandered his chance in life at being a good person. See what I mean about the meaning of his names falling exactly into the two camps? I'm of the opinion that Snape was the latter and is/will become(-e + ing)the former. *scratches head* Did *any* of that make sense? Just a little? For the record, I think Snape is *still* GOOD! *Snape-haters begin objecting, AyanEva covers ears with hands and sings loudly "LALALALA!!!"* ;-) Ok, I'm done. Phrew! AyanEva *walks away chanting "SNAPE ROCKS! SNAPE ROCKS!"* <---yeah, I'm determined. From Pssyfoot88 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 21:45:07 2005 From: Pssyfoot88 at aol.com (tortielover88) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:45:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: WHEN PAM HAS BOTOX/GOODBYE WRINKLES (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133955 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin walked along the shore of Theory Bay with her sister, one of the newest members. Meanwhile, her sister was picking up bits of driftwood. Eventually she found what looked like an old, stretched-out inner tube, and she began to patch up the holes. "What are you doing?" Kaylee asked as her sister blew up the inner tube. "Making a ship," young TortieKitten replied as she smiled back at her sister. "A ship?" Kaylee asked. "In your first post? My goodness, you're brave!" TortieKitten nodded demurely. "Does it really matter? After all, you've showed me around TBAY a little and I understand it...somewhat." "True enough. So what's your theory?" Kaylee peered down at the letters her sister was painting. "WHEN PAM HAS BOTOX?" she asked incredulously. TortieKitten grinned and nodded, painting more letters on yet another patched-up inner tube. "GOODBYE WRINKLES..." She stared at TortieKitten. "What in the name of Merlin is this?" TortieKitten grinned. "A theory!" Kaylee slapped her forehead. "Well, duh. But what does it mean?" TortieKitten smiled secretively as she began to tie them together. "When Harry's Eminently Noble Parents Are Murdered, He Accidentally, Simultaneously Becomes Orphaned!Tom's Other horcruX," TortieKitten said, emphasizing the "X". Then, before Kaylee could marvel long at TortieKitten's use of TBAY terminology, TortieKitten pointed to the other inner tube. "Good Old Obsolete Dumbledore Begs Yellowbellied Eileen's Waxy unReliable chIld to Not Kill his reLiancE on Snape," she explained in a rush. Kaylee nodded. "Uh-huh. I see. Well, good luck to you, Sis. You'll need a First Mate, of course..." She began to walk away. TortieKitten dashed after her. "Wait a minute! Wait! They can be separated, you know!" Kaylee pondered this. "Well. I'll sail with you on the *first* one, then. But not the second one. I'm sorry. I just don't quite believe Dumbledore wasn't begging Snape to kill him and end his misery. But otherwise, I bet that's a watertight theory. Good job, TortieKitten. I think you deserve a drink at the Royal George. My treat." And as the inner tubes floated between the D.R.I.B.B.L.E.S.H.A.D.O.W.S. and the S.W.A.K. D.E.A.D., Kaylee led her sister off for a strawberry lemonade or two. TortieKitten From easimm at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 22:02:32 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:02:32 -0000 Subject: Snape, Prophecy, Neville & Harry In-Reply-To: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337517C@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Herndon" wrote: > Has anyone else thought about how Snape's overhearing of the > prophecy must have influenced his treatment of both Harry and > Neville?... Snorky wrote: Yes, I actually predicted that Snape knew the contents of the prophesy, and that he treated Harry and Neville badly because he was jealous that they were more likely to be the ones to bring down LV, and get the fame, than he was. Unfortunately, I'm actually on the hunt for something else, and I'll have to leave you to find the post. Sorry. From romulus at hermionegranger.us Thu Jul 21 22:05:38 2005 From: romulus at hermionegranger.us (romulusmmcdougal) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:05:38 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Dawson" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > > > Wow! Emerson is catching the heat from the H-Hr shippers at > > > Mugglenet.com. Some of those shippers are also lashing out at > Rowling > > > and threatening never to read another Harry Potter book again... > > > > > > Grapes sour much? > > > > > > Milz > > > > That's just silly. I guess you could call me a H/Hr shipper, though > > that's mostly because I never liked Ron. But really, it's been > > glaringly obvious since GoF and OotP that canon was R/Hr. I can't > > believe that anyone is surprised by this. > > > > ~ PKD > > Oh, I've read some doozies on that site today! Everything from > Rowling "suddenly sprung" R-H on us to the same old, "it's always > been ambiguous in the books" argument. Makes me wonder if I'm reading > the same books they have been.... > > Milz Well, being a closet HHr shipper, it comes as somewhat of a surprise for the following reason: Ron has never impressed me as one who has great magical ability, nor as one that will be any kind of factor in the Good versus Evil aspect of the story. Hermione, on the other hand, has meant everything to Harry's success in the first five books. The match seemed a natural -- See some of the stuff Penny Linsenmeyer (sp?) has written for instance. I have looked on the RHr ship as a childhood crush that would soon dissolve to make way for a budding romance between HHr. But Jo has shut this idea down most emphatically. In Book Six, Hermione is literally shoved out of the way and made to look like a second rate character. I was disappointed by that as well. Granted, the books are about Harry Potter, and it is LOVE that is going to be key in defeating Voldemort. But Harry-Ginny? What kind of spark will that produce? Especially now that he has dumped her? Hope that helps you understand us HHr shippers a little better. RMM From ayaneva at aol.com Thu Jul 21 22:10:27 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:10:27 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's > potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, > who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if > Harry reminded him of Snape? > > Possible theories... > a) Snape invented the improved potions recipies but never put them into > practice in class but passed them on to Lily instead. (Highly, > unlikely, since Snape apparently didn't like "mudblood" Lily.) > b) Lily found out all the potion improvements and practiced them in > class. Snape copied down everything she did in his book. While he had > been an average student, he later became a great potions master by > imitating Lily. > > I'd love to know your opinion. > Florentine I know this is short (to compensate for my last long-winded post!), but I always thought Slughorn was going on about Lilly in order to kiss up to Harry. Slughorn wouldn't have raved on about how good Snape was in front of Harry because then he would've had even less of a chance at getting Harry into his little social club. AyanEva From hpdmieboq at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 21:55:37 2005 From: hpdmieboq at yahoo.com (hpdmieboq) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:55:37 -0000 Subject: underage magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133960 OK, so I don't know if anybody has brought this up yet because i feel like I'm drowning in posts but I had a question. I was rereading the book and realized that DD did a lot of magic at Harry's house and according to what DD says about underage magic later, Harry should be blamed for it. Of course, DD isn't that stupid and would have foreseen this and taken measures to ensure that he could do magic at the Dursleys without Harry being blamed for it. my question is how? If he informed the Ministry about going to get Harry that seems too risky in terms of someone could find out that Harry would be traveling and, that seems like somehting that needs to be kept under wraps. Also, that would mean bringing more attention to the Dursley house. The only way I can see of DD getting around all this is if he had some device/ spell/charm to either take the Ministry survelliance off the house or mask his own magic. I am very curious as to how he did this. He himself said that the Ministry has no way of knowing who does the magic just that it was done, so I don't believe that they have some way of recognizing that it was DD performing spells. Whatever he used could prove useful in the future, no? I also found it odd that Harry wouldn't also come up with this question, but maybe it will be answered in book 7? Anyway, i'm looking forward to seeing what kind of answers there are to this. -Irka (Who mostly just lurks but when she gets a question that bugs the hell outta her she has to choice but to ask it) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 22:31:31 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:31:31 -0000 Subject: Snape in the daylight?? In-Reply-To: <16250F9C-2841-43F9-AD4E-DB20CA97AC17@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlcaron at g..." wrote: jlc: > Presumably in Book One when Snape refereed the Quidditch match, he > was in daylight. And possibly some of the times he "flitted in and > out" of 12 Grimmauld Place in Book Five. I'm pretty sure we've seen > Snape out and about in the daytime before, even if he prefers his > dark dungeons. (I don't have my books with me so I can't check for > other possibilities, but the Quidditch match, off the top of my head, > seems like a likely candidate.) Geoff: The bit you want is: 'Harry knew, when they wished him good luck outside the changing rooms next afternoon, that Ron and Hermione were wondering whether they'd ever see him alive again... ...Little did Harry know that Ron and Hermione had been secretly practising the Leg-Locker Curse. They'd got the idea from Malfoy using it on Neville and were ready to use it on Snape if he showed any sign of wanting to hurt Harry.' (PS "Nicolas Flamel" p.162 UK edition) From maritajan at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 22:35:18 2005 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721223518.74408.qmail@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133962 --- meltowne wrote: SNIP > > The ONLY spell we've seen cast where the caster didn't know what the > spell would do was this new one. SNIP Because I've seen this sentiment posted several times, I just wanted to point out that "sectumsempra" is NOT the only spell cast without knowing what would happen. US Edition, page 239 "Pointing his wand at nothing in particular, he [Harry] gave it an upward flick and said Levicorpus! inside his head...." And, of course, Ron ended up hanging upside down in midair. A few paragraps later, Harry found what he thought was the counter-jinx and tried it. Luckily, it was the right spell. So, not only did Harry get the spell right, first time, nonverbally, but he also got the wand movement right. I don't know what that means, but it's there in canon. MJ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 22:35:43 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:35:43 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133963 RMM says: I have looked on the RHr ship as a childhood crush that would soon > dissolve to make way for a budding romance between HHr. > But Jo has shut this idea down most emphatically. > In Book Six, Hermione is literally shoved out of the way and made to > look like a second rate character. I was disappointed by that as > well. > Granted, the books are about Harry Potter, and it is LOVE that is > going to be key in defeating Voldemort. > But Harry-Ginny? What kind of spark will that produce? > Especially now that he has dumped her? > > Hope that helps you understand us HHr shippers a little better. Casmir- That's the best and most reasonable explanation I have heard for a H/HR relationship. I was never able to see it that way because I knew Harry would have to do it alone in the end. That means, whatever he gets from Hermione in his younger days (answers, thinking, spells, etc) he would have to learn to produce for himself. Not only does this lessen dependency on her, but becomes a competitive thing for Hermione's ego or self esteem. (and yes, I think that was discernable early on.) There is no doubt that H and Hr have respected each other, which makes for a great friendship....but for romance..there has to be that spark. (for those that think harmony is the only thing necessary, I could tell you of three couples who got divorced over the last 2 years that never founght once. They married because they were good friends, so why not.) The fact that Ron and Hr spark at times shows there's alchemy going on! ~Casmir From desastreuse at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 22:42:03 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:42:03 -0000 Subject: Snape giveaway by JKR in BBC interview? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133964 Medeacallous writes: > But no Snape, despite what she always says about what a horrible > person he is?! Yes, I noted that, too, when I read the interview. It seems to me that Rowling is truly hedging when it comes to Snape's nature (e.g., the recent Leaky Cauldron interview) but did give herself away here a bit. The omission of Snape is very telling, indeed. The small- potatoes cruelty of Umbridge, the smarminess of Lockhart, the priggish bullying of Dursley capped only by the predictable violence of Voldemort leaves a hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through when it comes to Snape's "apparent" cruel, evil, and violent treachery. Certainly she hasn't forgotten potentially and arguably the worst villain of the entire series, he of the gross greasy hair and the yellow teeth, the one she just wrote most recently about in her most controversal text yet? Indeed, at times it not what we say, it's what we don't say that matters most. desastreuse p.s. I responded to your post this morning, but, alas, I fiddled with the "To:" menu on my screen and ended up sending it to the landlords. :( From silkenaxe at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 21:58:50 2005 From: silkenaxe at yahoo.ca (Janne) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:58:50 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Hiding Places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133965 Hokus: < ...what about other places at Hogwart's?... Ja: What about Harry? I mean, LV used a snake as a horcrux, no ? And for Harry's he killed person ... Yeah, yeah that would mean that Harry canno't kill LV without killing himself but ...That could be believable ! Malkavian Ja From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 22:48:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:48:07 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" wrote: > > > Yes the current 5th years did take their OWLS. I do not have the exact > > chapter but its near the end of the book. I want to say right before > > DD's funeral. Salit: > Yes, I don't remember the exact quote, but it is mentioned that Harry > had to limit his outings with Ginny as she was preparing for her OWL's. > > I can't imagine Hogwarts not opening though - I mean can you picture > Hermione not taking her NEWT's? :-) Geoff: In fact, I don't think they did - or not during the currency of the book... 'But Ron's tolerance was not to be tested much as they moved into June, for Harry and Ginny's time together was becoming increasingly restricted. Ginny's O.W.L.s were approaching and she was therefore forced to revise for hours into the night.' (HBP "The Seer Overheard" p.501 UK edition) 'All lessons were suspended, all examinations postponed. Some students were hurried away from Hogwarts by their parents over the next couple of days - ' (HBP "The White Tomb" p.590 UK edition) From deon_simon at sdstate.edu Thu Jul 21 22:36:53 2005 From: deon_simon at sdstate.edu (sweetpea57007) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:36:53 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133967 Florentine Maier wrote: > Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if Harry reminded him of Snape? I'm very curious about the relationship between Snape and Lily. She stuck up for him when James was being a bully to Snape. Snapes response to Lily was that he didn't need her help but still he must have secretly appreciated that she stick up for him. My pet theory is that Snape had a secret crush on Lily and is angry at LV for having killed her. If Dumbledore knew about this (if Snape told him that this was his reason for turning against LV) then this secret might be why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Doesn't it seem as if JKR is trying to make the statement that love is more powerful than hate? sweetpea From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 21 22:42:00 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:42:00 -0000 Subject: A Deeply Horrible Person (Was Re: Resignation & Book 7 Predictions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133968 Bekki wrote: > Therefore I've come to think of "deeply horrible" as only applying to Snape's personality, at least as far as that quote goes. It seems like the sarcastic comments would be fun to write, not someone being truly evil. She doesn't say that enjoyed writing Tom Riddle. houyhnhnm: Thanks for running down that quote. I don't think impromtu answers in an interview convey a writer's true feelings about a character as much what s/he writes in the book. In some ways Snape is a deeply horrible person, but that is not the same as being evil. All spys are horrible because of what they must do, but they are not all traitors. We get a glimpse of the web of lies into which Snape has woven himself in "Spinners End" (Loved that title!) From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:03:54 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:03:54 -0000 Subject: What Really Motivates Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133969 I've been reading most of the posts about Snape but I may have missed some so bear with me. When Snape calls Lily a mudblood in OOTP, I think a lot of water had already gone under the bridge by then between them (thin line between love and hate). In HBP, Slughorn spoke of Lily and her outstanding work in Potions. Of course, Snape was outstanding in potions. This may have given them a chance to connect because it appears that Gryffindor and Slytherin take potions classes together, but that's not canon, just speculation. Slughorn also says of Lily... pg 70 HPB (AE)"Vivacious you know. Charming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in my house. Very cheeky answers I used to get back too." This indicates that perhaps Lily was able to transcend some of the hostility between the two houses. And perhaps she reached out to Snape at one time, since they were clearly in competition with one another. Could she have even gotten to know him a lot better and found out his mother's maiden name? A "cheeky" girl would definitely come up with calling Snape a "half-blood" prince. I think it is reasonable that Tom Riddle had the book before Snape. They were both poor, probably on scholarships and most likely received a Hogwarts issued Advanced Potions book--in this case perhaps the same one. Snape may even have shared with Lily some of the secrets the book had to offer, making her excel in the classroom, similar to what Harry did. Some of the notes could be Riddle's, some Snape's, or both. When we think about Snape's loyalties, why must we limit him to Dumbledore or Voldemort? Speculating on a relationship, which didn't have to be romantic at all on Lily's part, she may have been the only person to ever reach out to Snape and make him feel anything after dealing with an abusive father. Why didn't Lily have to die? Voldemort was willing to make an exception this time? He didn't care for her, he called her a foolish girl. But why let her live at all? Was it for his favorite Death Eater Snape's sake? The one who brought Voldemort the prophecy and according to Dumbledore, anguished to the core that it turned out to be the Potters? Was Voldemort rewarding him--Peter Pettigrew would definitely have known about their relationship if there was one and told Voldemort who talked to Snape...yada yada. Is this why Harry isn't told why Dumbledore trusts Snape? It is all tied up in Snape's devotion to Lily, which would tear Harry apart? After Lily and James were murdered, what then? Does Snape have some knowledge (and I believe that he would just as RAB figured things out)that Voldemort work with horcruxes? When Snape laid eyes on Harry, and saw Lily's green eyes staring back, could he speculate something unbelievable happened during the AK reverse and it may be possible to bring her back somehow? It would explain why he has always spared Harry whenever he could. I believe Dumbledore was valuable to Snape--way beyond what he told Bella in HBP. I don't believe that Snape considered DD his master. I do believe, however, that Snape hates Voldemort with all of his being, because he killed Lily, and any chance he would ever have with her. Is this fun or what?? From mandorino222 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:01:39 2005 From: mandorino222 at yahoo.com (mandorino222) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:01:39 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133970 There's only one thing that bothers me about writing Snape off as evil... In the second chapter of HBP, when Snape essentially answers every accusation of loyalty to Dumbledore's cause that Bellatrix can think of, there is one question he doesn't answer. Remember toward the end of OoTP, when Harry is caught using the fireplace in Umbridge's office? When Snape comes into the room, Harry tells him "they've got padfoot where it's hidden!" What does Snape do? He runs off and alerts the Order of the Phoenix (INCLUDING Dumbledore) to the death eaters' doings!!!!! He didn't HAVE to do that. He could have simply pretended that he didn't understand Harry, and allowed the Death Eaters to get the prophecy without interference. Instead, he spoils the whole plan and foils Voldemort's efforts to get the prophecy that he so desperately needs. Why??? You'll notice that THAT question is skillfully avoided in "Spinner's End." Mandorino From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 21 22:50:47 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:50:47 -0000 Subject: Someone who knows why DD trusted Snape? In-Reply-To: <005d01c58e3a$33837df0$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133971 TrekkieGrrrl: > I still have this feeling that it was Hagrid that was the witness, if we're going for the "Snape and Dumbledore made an Unbreakable Vow" theory. Hagrid is backing Snape up ALL the time almost to the point of being a total echo of Dumbledore's "I trust Severus Snape" > So my guess is that Hagrid KNOWS exactely WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape. houyhnhnm: I like it. Snape and Hagrid do have a pretty good relationship. I can find only one scene in all six books (PS/SS) where there is direct interaction between the two, but the exchange is remarkable for the lack of fear on Hagrid's part and the lack of surliness on the part of Snape. From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Thu Jul 21 23:03:08 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (Cheryl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:03:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c58e48$5c7b6f70$020aa8c0@MOMANDDADS> No: HPFGUIDX 133972 -----Original Message----- From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Florentine Maier >I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's >potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, >who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if >Harry reminded him of Snape? My take on this was that, perhaps, Snape and Lily had sat near each other in Potions and Snape had helped Lily by writing down his potion improvements for her to peek at. I remember something like this being done when I was in school:-) Why would Slughorn constantly compare Harry's potions abilities to Lily's? 1) Harry is her son, and that causes him to think of her.Harry is not Snape's son 2) Slughorn, as apparently many other people did, really liked Lily so he raved about her instead of about Snape, who was as talented at potions, but not as likeable. I don't automatically take Snape's "mudblood" comment to mean that he didn't like Lily. Perhaps he was either rejected by her, didn't want anyone to suspect he had feelings for her (maybe that is why both James and Snape went down to the lake after class --- maybe it was where she usually went). I have known instances in my like of people, unfortunately, being mean to people they, beneath the surface, actually liked. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzi_99_uk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 22:59:24 2005 From: suzi_99_uk at yahoo.co.uk (suzi_99_uk) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:59:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's portrait Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133973 Can someone explain to me the way in which the portraits in Dumbledore's office communicate? Surely if the previous portraits can offer advice/censure then Dumbledore's can do the same? Or is it the fact that the subject may still be alive that lets them talk so independantly? Still, surely not all the paintings in Dumbledore's office are of people who are still living, and as we know the painting of Sirius' mother in Grimmuld Place is certainly of a deceased person. Yet that too voices an opinion, although it does seem to be more of a curse-based communication, with her only uttering her hatred for 'mudbloods'. Either way, we've seen that quite a few paintings (especially The Fat Lady, Sir Cadogen) in HP are able to hold conversations, and if that's the case will Dumbledore's be able to as well? I guess I'm trying to get my head around whether the painting is meant to be a kind of after life, and if we really have heard the last from Dumbledore. Suz From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 21 23:12:58 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:12:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ab01c58e49$bcd57630$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 133974 There's only one thing that bothers me about writing Snape off as evil... In the second chapter of HBP, when Snape essentially answers every accusation of loyalty to Dumbledore's cause that Bellatrix can think of, there is one question he doesn't answer. Remember toward the end of OoTP, when Harry is caught using the fireplace in Umbridge's office? When Snape comes into the room, Harry tells him "they've got padfoot where it's hidden!" What does Snape do? He runs off and alerts the Order of the Phoenix (INCLUDING Dumbledore) to the death eaters' doings!!!!! He didn't HAVE to do that. He could have simply pretended that he didn't understand Harry, and allowed the Death Eaters to get the prophecy without interference. Instead, he spoils the whole plan and foils Voldemort's efforts to get the prophecy that he so desperately needs. Why??? You'll notice that THAT question is skillfully avoided in "Spinner's End." Mandorino Sherry: That one's easy for me anyway. If he hadn't done what he did, then if Harry survived the events at the ministry, Snape's cover would have been blown, because Harry would have told far and wide that he tried to tell Snape and nothing was done. There were also other witnesses in the office, even if Harry had somehow been killed at the ministry. Sometimes, as a spy, you have to be seen to do what your handlers may not like you to be doing, like helping Sirius. and didn't it all just work out fine and dandy for Snape? Sirius ended up getting killed. Hmmm. That must have made Snape's day! Sherry From Pssyfoot88 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 23:00:50 2005 From: Pssyfoot88 at aol.com (tortielover88) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:00:50 -0000 Subject: WHEN PAM HAS BOTOX/GOODBYE WRINKLES, part 2 (LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133975 As Kaylee Tonks-Lupin and TortieKitten sipped their strawberry lemonades, Kaylee looked strangely at TortieKitten. "Wait a second! You never *explained* the bloody theory!" TortieKitten looked repentant, and replied, "I was waiting for you to ask, of course...but here we go." As Kaylee listened intently, TortieKitten put down her now-empty glass (George ran to get her a free refill) and began. "Well, as I finished up HBP, closed the cover, and wiped away the last few tears left on my face..." Kaylee interrupted her to wipe away her own tears. "Yes, yes, I know...go on, Sis, go on." TortieKitten looked half annoyed, half amused, cleared her throat, and continued. "As I was saying, before I was so *rudely* interrupted--" She was cut off by the return of a strawberry lemonade refill, and glared at George, taking the glass. "Thank you. ANYWAY," she said again, "I started to ponder, as many others did, about where and what the final Horcruxes might have been. And then, it hit me." She ducked a flying margarita glass from the corner, where SSSusan had had one too many. "NOT LIKE THAT!" she bellowed, before repeating, "And then it..." Kaylee shoved a hand over her sister's mouth. "No! You don't know what can happen when you say things like that!" she said, nodding to the glass shards lying on Neri and Faith's table. Neri was glaring back at SSSusan and Alla. "Fine then," TortieKitten replied. "Now, where was I? Oh yes. And then," ignoring Kaylee's warning stare, "I realized..." Kaylee breathed a sigh of relief. "It's Harry!" she exclaimed rather loudly. The other denizens of George's turned incredulously toward the girl. "What?" they yelled as one. The conspiracy theorists muttered in their corner. Lowering her voice, TortieKitten continued. "I know that many people would probably scream at me for this repeated theory. But mine is different. My belief is that Harry was not *intended* to be a Horcrux. Instead, Voldemort's soul had been split when he killed Lily and James, and when he attempted to kill Harry, part of his soul entered Harry without either of them noticing." Kaylee nodded. "Sounds like you've read the 'Changeling Theory' on RedHen," she commented. "I haven't. What is it?" TortieKitten asked. She had grown a little louder and therefore got a few incredulous stares. "Forgive her, she's a newbie," Kaylee apologized. "Must have gotten lucky. I'll show it to you later. Keep going. I want to hear this." TortieKitten sighed and continued. "I meant, without either of them noticing *since* Voldemort's soul had been split so many times that one more missing piece went unnoticed. Thus, if Dumbledore was correct in saying that Nagini was Voldemort's last Horcrux, then she was in fact his seventh." Kaylee tilted her head to one side. "Where's the canon?" she asked conversationally. TortieKitten grinned. "It's an inner tube! A cannon would sink it!" Kaylee arched her eyebrow. "Then how is it going to defend itself against...well, opposition?" TortieKitten smiled. "A squirt gun, naturally." She whipped one out and Kaylee read, with some difficulty, the tiny writing on it. ********************************************************************** "The snake?" asked Harry, startled. "You can use animals as Horcruxes?" (SNIP) "...However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you....I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux..." (SNIP) pg. 306 Chapter Twenty-Three, HBP Scholastic Edition "Horcruxes" ********************************************************************** Kaylee looked up. "B-but you're saying he made Harry into an extra Horcrux before he made his last Horcrux? Or something?" "Exactly," TortieKitten said, beaming, as though glad her sister had gotten the point. Kaylee sat there, mouth open. "I...I see. Very interesting. Now what's this other inner tube? GOODBYE WRINKLES, you called it..." She sipped on her third strawberry lemonade and waited for her sister's explanation. "All right. GOODBYE WRINKLES. It started as a response to my original anagram. From there, I decided to fit it into one of my other theories, that Snape was killing Dumbledore as a response to his Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa Malfoy, and that Dumbledore was pleading Snape not to kill him or the trust between them." The ESE! Snape supporters turned interested eyes toward the newcomer. Kaylee flushed red. "Well, I don't think Snape is ESE!," TortieKitten was quick to point out, causing the conspiracy theorists to moan and groan and shake their heads doubtfully. And they almost had a new member! Kaylee laughed softly. "Then explain, Kitten," she urged. "I believe, as many do, that Snape was looking out for number one," TortieKitten said, "and that when faced with the decision to break his Vow or to break Dumbledore's trust, he took the one that was less likely to kill him, and moved on." She gave Kaylee another squirt gun to read. ********************************************************************** But somebody else had spoken Snape's name quite softly. "Severus..." The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. (SNIP) Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus...please..." Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "AVADA KEDAVRA!" (SNIP) pg. 595-96 Chapter Twenty-Seven, HBP Scholastic Edition "The Lightning-Struck Tower" ********************************************************************** Several others looked interested now. Kaylee wondered how everyone could hear her sister when she wasn't shouting this time, but then she found that a magical microphone had been shoved into TortieKitten's glass when no one was paying attention. Who had done that? "BLAST!" Captain Amber shouted, noticing her First Mate's gaze as she walked over to them. "FLORENCE SNAPE, I'LL GET YOU FOR THIS!" And she dashed off to the kitchen, covered in boils and gulping antidote as she ran. TortieKitten (co-starring Kaylee Tonks-Lupin) From romulus at hermionegranger.us Thu Jul 21 23:18:37 2005 From: romulus at hermionegranger.us (romulusmmcdougal) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:18:37 -0000 Subject: The Incomplete Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133976 Can anyone give me an idea of why it is of such importance that Voldemort only heard part of the prophecy? After all, if he heard all of it, would it have changed his mind about who to go after? Thanks in advance to your ideas. RMM From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:18:44 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721231844.32452.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133977 --- romulusmmcdougal wrote: > > Well, being a closet HHr shipper, it comes as > somewhat of a surprise > for the following reason: Ron has never impressed > me as one who has > great magical ability, nor as one that will be any > kind of factor in > the Good versus Evil aspect of the story. Hermione, > on the other > hand, has meant everything to Harry's success in the > first five > books. The match seemed a natural -- See some of > the stuff Penny > Linsenmeyer (sp?) has written for instance. Firstly, I've heard this quite a bit from H/Hers. Ron and Hermione are both sidekicks. They're equals, with Harry being greater. I can't really say from OOTP, because they didn't get to do much before being taken out of the battle, but before that Ron always kept his cool better than Hermione in battle. And Hermione is the thinker, and the one who brews the difficult potions and teachs difficult spells. > I have looked on the RHr ship as a childhood crush > that would soon > dissolve to make way for a budding romance between > HHr. Yes, but why? Why have the crush if it were going to end? Why would HH get together? Just because she can help in the fight? I always saw it as "Hermione and Ron have romantic feelings for each other and Hermione and Harry don't." Doesn't matter who's smarter or braver or better - it's who you feel "that way" about. > But Jo has shut this idea down most emphatically. Well, to be fair I thought GOF shut it down. And in interviews she's said that Harry and Hermione were platonic and intimated they weren't suited and said the tension was between Ron and Hermione and said something was "going on" between them. Now the casual fan might not know about her interviews, but I expect most of us do. (btw, I think the books were obvious enough on their own) > In Book Six, Hermione is literally shoved out of the > way and made to > look like a second rate character. I was > disappointed by that as > well. Disagree. She's is not literally shoved out of the way. She does get less time and less to do in this book - but so does Ron. They are on the same level, as they have always been. And it's Dumbledore, not Ginny, who gets the time with Harry. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From adatole.301453 at bloglines.com Thu Jul 21 23:26:03 2005 From: adatole.301453 at bloglines.com (Leon Adato) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:26:03 -0000 Subject: GOF (sort of) Where was Harry's "Avada"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133978 I know this is going back two books, but I think it has bearing especially as we discuss the idea of Harry being a Horcrux. In GoF, during the duel and the priori incantatem effect (regardless of whether James or Lily emerged first), wasn't there a spell missing? We hear the screams of pain earlier - crucio'd people and such. And of course the Avada'd victims. But where was the Avada for Harry? Shouldn't it have come before James/Lily? My assumption of the events: James is killed Lilly is killed **Harry is NOT killed** (long gap) Bertha tortured Bertha killed groundskeeper killed more people tortured Cedric killed We get most of that, I think. But not the echo of the spell that didn't kill the boy who lived. Did I miss something, or was this already discussed? The point being that I would have suspected Avada (even a failed one) to show up in the Priori effect. But perhaps something like the Horcrux spell might not. Just more grist for the mill, Leon From romulus at hermionegranger.us Thu Jul 21 23:40:10 2005 From: romulus at hermionegranger.us (romulusmmcdougal) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:40:10 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: <20050721231844.32452.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: RMM: > > I have looked on the RHr ship as a childhood crush > > that would soon > > dissolve to make way for a budding romance between > > HHr. > Rebecca: > Yes, but why? Why have the crush if it were going to > end? Why would HH get together? Just because she can > help in the fight? I always saw it as "Hermione and > Ron have romantic feelings for each other and Hermione > and Harry don't." Doesn't matter who's smarter or > braver or better - it's who you feel "that way" about. RMM again: It would end because these are essentially children we are talking about here, not adults. Predominantly, Middle-Teens have not the maturity to develop serious life-long romantic relationships. While it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely. For reasons why HH could have gotten together I refer you to Penny Linsenmayer's excellent essay on H/Hr. You can read it here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html 'Nuff said, since the point is moot anyway and the illusions are dashed. Just call me delusional, RMM From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:48:00 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050721234800.88472.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133980 --- romulusmmcdougal wrote: > RMM again: > It would end because these are essentially children > we are talking > about here, not adults. Predominantly, Middle-Teens > have not the > maturity to develop serious life-long romantic > relationships. > While it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely. No, I'm asking why would JKR write it that way? Why would she want a frivolous crush between trio members? On outside characters makes sense, it's growing up. But within the trio emotions (loyalty, trust, respect) are strong and so I don't see why a frivolous (goes nowhere and goes away) crush would be there. I'm sorry to say I'm not going to read the essay. I've been involved in shipping debates since before OOTP came out. I've read many, many posts on H/H. None ever get past the point that there are no romantic feelings there and no indication that they are going to develop. Oh, I've seen people point out things that they think indicate a romantic tendancy, but I've never agreed with a one of them. And since it's settled now . . Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From smilingator81 at aol.com Thu Jul 21 23:50:32 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:50:32 -0000 Subject: Snape in Daylight/Incomplete Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133981 Kristin wrote: > > I am curious (i don't have the books with me) if we have ever seen Snape in the daylight? > could he have some vampire tendencies? >Dungrollin: >Sorry to burst your bubble, but JKR has now shot this theory down >*twice*. JKR: (from Mugglenet interview, 7/16/05) Trekkie: >Yabut.. I just don't AGREE that there's no canon evidence for him being >a >vampire. On the contrary I think there has been so many hints in that >direction that I see red herrings swimming by when JKR responds like >that. I just read the interview Dungrollin mentioned that's posted on Mugglenet. JKR kinda hurt my feelings there when she said the theory was "off the wall" because there's no canon evidence. I agree with you Trekkie, there have been many hints pointing in that direction. Maybe we are thinking too big, and as you said earlier, the bat hints have to do with Snape's patronus or transfiguration, not his blood line. Just my thoughts... smilingator(whose feelings are hurt but still thinks JKR is a genius) From smilingator81 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 00:07:15 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:07:15 -0000 Subject: Doh! Forgot about the Prophecy... (WAS Re: Incomplete Prophecy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133982 In my emotional state when writing my last post, I forgot to finish the other half of it! >RMM: >Can anyone give me an idea of why it is of such importance that >Voldemort only heard part of the prophecy? >After all, if he heard all of it, would it have changed his mind about >who to go after? I actually had the same question and one of my friends cleared that up for me. According to DD, the "eavesdropper" only heard about the foretelling of a boy in July whose parents had defied LV three times... he missed the part about LV marking the boy as his equal, that the boy would have powers LV did not know about and that one must die at the hand of the other (IMO, some pretty important stuff). So, had LV heard the whole prophecy, maybe it would have changed his mind about who to go after. As DD and Harry discuss in OOP, perhaps had LV heard the whole thing, he would have waited to see if Neville or Harry turned out to be the bigger threat and then tried to kill the one who he felt most threatened by. Harry probably would not have been a Parseltongue and would probably have been a different person since he would have grown up in the wizarding world with both of his parents alive. Maybe LV would have seen Neville as a bigger threat... who knows. As it turns out, LV acted with the knowledge he had and he chose Harry because Harry was "half-blood" just like himself. Interesting how LV's attempt to prevent the prophecy from happening actually caused the start of the prophecy. Just my thoughts... smilingator (post #3! no more for today) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 22 00:17:47 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:17:47 -0000 Subject: Snape in the daylight?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > Dungrollin: > Sorry to burst your bubble, but JKR has now shot this theory down > *twice*. > > First here: > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm > > World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004: > Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? > JK Rowling: Erm... I don't think so. > > Secondly here: > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml > > JKR: It's when people get really off the wall ? it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that. Pippin: She hasn't quite squashed the part-vampire theory. It could be that he is part-vampire just like Flitwick is part-goblin, via some remote ancestor and it's not relevant to the plot, so she doesn't want to confuse us. Or it could be that it's quite relevant and Jo is not being full or frank with us. She said she couldn't be, until Book Seven is out, so you have to take everything she says with a grain of salt, IMO. None of it lies, maybe, but not the whole truth and nothing but, either. But the answer to the question is that Snape was in the daylight twice. Once in PS/SS at the Quidditch match he refereed, where it was so close to dusk that when the very short game ended, Harry could hear owls hooting. And once at the Quidditch final in PoA, a brillliantly sunny day. Snape was there in green with a very grim smile. I'd like to hear Jo's explanation for his photophobia. Maybe she'll do another interview after Book Seven, no weasling allowed! Pippin From easimm at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 00:20:12 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:20:12 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133984 I think I have a few reasons not mentioned already for believing that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's request. In message 133293, deatheaterjames says that in the tower scene, Dumbledore was as good as dead because he was wandless and surrounded by deatheaters, as well as being weak from poison, and so Snape killing Dumbledore was actually good for the OOTP because Snape kept his cover. I believe Dumbledore was as good as dead as well, but much earlier, after he cracked open the ring and injured his arm. The wound was not healing, and Dumbledore was dying from it. Snape and Dumbledore were involved in a coverup. Only Snape was allowed to treat the wound- Madame Pompfrey was not allowed to assess it. Snape may have been told to carry out his mission of spying on the Dark Lord, even if he had to carry out the last part of his unbreakable vow, because Dumbledore knew he was weak and didn't have long to live and Snape's role was so important. Snape could have been challenged just as Harry was, to do anything, even kill Dumbledore, to succeed in his mission. Also, Dumbledore's attitude towards the poison in the basin is a clue to knowledge of his imminent death. To me, Dumbledore sounds too calm and collected when he mentions that the poison could kill him sooner or later (Sorry I can't quote the book but my partner won't let go of it!) Also, isn't it interesting that Dumbledore never actually taught Harry any really cool spells? Perhaps he was too weak. Finally, if killing Dumbledore made Snape happy, then torturing Harry would have made him even happier. Even if Voldemort really said that Harry shouldn't be harmed, a crucio or two from Snape or another deatheater wouldn't have left permanent damage. I just can't believe that an evil Snape who hated Harry would not have tortured him just a bit, at least. Instead of having deatheater fun, Snape defends himself several times from the charge of being a coward. PS: I despise Snape, still. From easimm at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 00:31:23 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:31:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's gift to Snape and the OOTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133985 I think Dumbledore passed something onto Snape when was AK'd. I'm not sure if it's anything more than the walking, talking shadow that will appear from Snape's wand from the priori incantatem spell, or if Rowling has any more methods up her sleeve. Dumbledore, who I believe was dying at the start of the book, might be able to communicate from all of his portraits. These include the ones found in the chocolate frog packaging, which are probably found in the houses of deatheaters who have children, or who like chocolate. Message 133276 from Alon Van Dam suggested reading the following - it's good! http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html It mentions the long gaze before the AK spell as a possible source of a transfer of something. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 00:32:09 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:32:09 -0000 Subject: New Snape Theory - SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS revealed - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Valky: > Before I continue to the worst spoiler of all, I will tell you, I > am more than wiling to answer your questions about the Diary and > Ginny, ask away... I have thought it through.. > > > > > > Valky > > SHINY GOLD PASHMINAS > > Souls Horcruxes Individually Never Yeild. Giving Our Lives for his > > Death. Prejudiced Against Snape Harry Misinterprets Albus Noble > > Sacrifice... > > Jen: I finally had time to really contemplate your thoughts, Valky, > and I'm speechless as usual in the face of one of your theories. > Perhaps it's the way you write, but I always think 'oh, she's got > this one figured out.' Valky: Thanks Jen, this theory unlocks secrets like a Master key, though so either it's waaay off track and my imgination runs off with me, or.. If we continue to discuss it you'll understand what I am saying... I am literally having to console myself that there are several things it doesn't quite explain.. :( > Jenreese: > I snippped most of your theory b/c my thoughts are pretty scattered > at the moment and I just wanted to do a stream of conciousness thing > at first. > > **(Also, where am I missing the 'worst spoiler of all'? I've been > trying to find that and can't. Please direct me or let me know if > you're still waiting to post it)** Valky: I haven't posted it yet, but I will, eventually, I have talked about it a little with some people and mostly noone likes it or wants to believe it.. I'll tell you soon.. (It's about Lily) > > In the recent TIME magazine article, JKR said this about the > books: "Um. I don't think they're that secular...but obviously > Dumbledore is not Jesus.' Food for thought, that is. ;) > > HBP brought to mind wonderings about resurrection, given all the > Phoenix imagery, and of course the white tomb so like another tomb > where a resurrection took place. But then JKR seems to be saying we > shouldn't look for Dumbledore to be a representation of Jesus. Maybe > sacrifice IS the name of the game at work here, the underlying > philosophical and spiritual concept in the series that makes it "um, > not that secular." > > The stage is certainly set by Lily's sacrifice. And you mentioned > the bond Sirius made with Dumbledore to sacrifice himself for Harry. > Personally I think this one goes much farther back, back to the > christening ceremony to make Sirius Harry's Godfather: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105067 > > The times Sirius said he would 'die for his friends' is not just > blather. He's willing to die for Harry, so much so he swore his life > on it in that ceremony (perhaps via the mysterious Unbreakable vow, > perhaps not). So it doesn't bother me at all that Sirius was a > willing participant, although I don't believe it was at DD's > request, but James'instead. Valky: JEN! You found it !!! You Found it!! I was looking for this yesterday.. Now I know why neither could live while the other survived. One of DD or Sirius (or both) made a solemn vow long long ago.. and they meant it. > Jen: > Now on to the meat of your theory, the Horcruxes. Just a few > thoughts in no particular order: > > 1) It seems more likely that Voldemort was hoping to place one of > his souls at the time of the Harry's death. Since the Potters are at > GH, he was hoping to use an artifact from Gryffindor owned by the > Potters. So I'm not sure how that would work with Lily's death > taking out one of the horcruxes. I think there was no horcrux > involved with that sacrifice. (As an aside, that might explain why > there are no more artifacts belonging to GG but the sword, perhaps > the remaining ones were destroyed when GH was destroyed). Valky: The key is in the prophecy. Voldemort marked Harry as his equal, why did that happen? I really don't want say this one again.. yet.. but I might when I finish with the Horcruxes. Suffice to say that in my theory Harry and Lily are a special case, remote but linked, to the set of Horcruxes. > Jen: > 2) You mentioned the diary--well? :-) I'm hoping for an explanation > about where that soul is now, if not completely destroyed. Valky: Yeah, you answered this in your follow up Jen. DD's giant brain makes even more giant mistakes.. he's really sorry for this in particular, (read OOtP speech again, and chapter on Horcruxes). I think Ginny knew this before Dumbledore figured it out. > Jen: > 3) While I love your theory, it seems a bit cumbersome to carry out > completely in Book 7. Although I do love the symmetry that Harry > notes all the people "who stood in front of him one by one, his > mother, his father, his godfather and finally Dumbledore; all > determined to protect him." (Chap. 30, p. 635, US). To find out > those same people actually made a willing sacrifice for him!!! Well, > after he feels guilty, he'll understand the enormity of it . > > And oh how I'd love to see Snape sacrifice himself for Harry while > extinguishing the last horcrux before the one inside Voldemort!!! > But the cumbersome part....I don't know. That's a lot of deaths, > very methodical deaths in some ways. Four I believe? If not written > right that could drag on and on. But JKR always surprises me! > Thankfully her imagination is better than mine. Valky: JK will do it in style, I am sure of it. It does seem methodical doesn't it, but I doubt that Jo has quite in mind to make it march along through the book like it seems it might be, it's going to be BIG BIG BANGY. Someone else I was chatting with noted that Trelawney and DD's recollections of the eavesdropping event were not meshing exactly, one explanation is that Snape heard a whole lot more than he's letting on, so I supposed that in his isolation since DD's death some bad feelings might surface and he'll let out more to Voldie than he really should or originally intended to, that should mix things up a little. If Voldie realises that they are after his soul... > > That's all for now. Lay more of your theory on me because it's a > *good* one, and could really tie everything together. > > Jen, thinking there was more but it escapes her now. Valky: Yeah theres more. Ok here it is, I already said that one Horcrux was located by the Longbottoms.. yeah? Right then since that I think I have located the next one (or maybe even the same one but it's not forshadowed that way so I am assuming the next one) Bella has it. We have all at least once or twice been convinced that the Chess game under the trapdoor was a foreshadowing, right? and quite a few have happily adopted a feeling that the Queen who knocks Ron off the horse is Bella. This Chess game also is in line with other foreshadowings of the Horcrux hunt, when it's all told, one of the Horcruxes will be battled for, and if we take the Queen to be Bella it puts a big new bangy twist on her words in spinners End - "He trusts me with his most precious..." It seems to be all very sad and beautiful, to me. Valky From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jul 22 00:52:41 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:52:41 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > RMM says: > > I have looked on the RHr ship as a childhood crush that would soon > > dissolve to make way for a budding romance between HHr. > > But Jo has shut this idea down most emphatically. > > In Book Six, Hermione is literally shoved out of the way and made > to > > look like a second rate character. I was disappointed by that as > > well. > > Granted, the books are about Harry Potter, and it is LOVE that is > > going to be key in defeating Voldemort. > > But Harry-Ginny? What kind of spark will that produce? > > Especially now that he has dumped her? > > > > Hope that helps you understand us HHr shippers a little better. > > Casmir- > > That's the best and most reasonable explanation I have heard for a > H/HR relationship. I was never able to see it that way because I > knew Harry would have to do it alone in the end. That means, > whatever he gets from Hermione in his younger days (answers, > thinking, spells, etc) he would have to learn to produce for > himself. Not only does this lessen dependency on her, but becomes a > competitive thing for Hermione's ego or self esteem. (and yes, I > think that was discernable early on.) > > There is no doubt that H and Hr have respected each other, which > makes for a great friendship....but for romance..there has to be that > spark. > > (for those that think harmony is the only thing necessary, I could > tell you of three couples who got divorced over the last 2 years that > never founght once. They married because they were good friends, so > why not.) > > The fact that Ron and Hr spark at times shows there's alchemy going > on! > > ~Casmir First off, I'm not into the Shipping Forecasts. imo, if I want to read romance novels, I'd read Jackie Collins, not Jo Rowling. Secondly, I've read Penny's stuff---she used to frequent this Group the same time I used to several years ago. So I'm not about to re-read it again. BTW, Steve VanderArk the owner of the Lexicon was also an active member of this forum at that time too. :) Thirdly, the question is love. Love isn't romance. Love is what Harry showed for Ginny when he ended that relationship. To say he "dumped" her is true, but it's also disingenuous. "Dumping" her would be more along the lines of what Lavender did to Ron or what Ginny did to Dean. Harry and Ginny both agreed to this dissolution. And here was Harry's reason: "Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to. He's already used you once, and that was just because you're my best friends's sisteer. think how much danger you'll be in if we keep this up. He'll know, he'll find out. He'll try and get to me through you." And in the following passages he admits that he cares for Ginny and doesn't want to see her harmed for his sake. This is alot different than Harry saying, "I think we need to see other people. It's been fun, but I really need my space, babe." Anyhow, as Casmir alluded, best friends doesn't automatically mean love-match. Milz (who doesn't like Ships of any sort and would prefer to stay away from the water.) From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 01:06:05 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:06:05 -0000 Subject: Life-debt questions Was (Re: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133988 >Hannah: Oh, JKR is always playing with us! As to what purpose the >chapter served, it gave us an insight into why Snape was allowed >back into the fold of Death Eaters, something many had wondered. >Indeed, not all fans were even convinced that he had returned to >spy - there has been no unbiased canon evidence of that up to now. Saraquel: Kathryn and Tonks, in messaes 850 and 854 said a lot of what I think about why we had that chapter, but I also want to add another angle: It gave us Snape's version of why Dumbledore allowed him back into the fold, which matches the version that we have been told before (sorry can't remember where or who said it, but wasn't that the reason generally accepted by the Order in previous books, I felt no, `Oh that's why' when DD told Harry. I really hate not being able to give the cannon reference.) We do not necessarily know whether this was in fact the real reason. All we know is that this is the version of events which Snape is telling the two sisters. I'm a, Snape-is-a-nasty-evil-man, person, although it has taken until now for me to let go of the strange fondness that I have had for him. JKR said in one of her interviews (again, sorry no reference) that she enjoyed writing about Snape, but does not like Snape as a character. I feel much the same, I love reading about Snape because he is such a compelling character, but actually he embodies pretty much what I fear most about people ? twisted mind with the power to do something about it. There is sometimes a tendency to write things in black and white on the list, the Snape is evil, Snape is good arguments. Whatever Snape does in the next book, he has already done evil things ? there is no question about that. Even if, he redeems himself in some way in book 7, his actions to date have had repercussions on others which have influenced the negative side of their characters (Draco) or caused them real distress (Harry, Neville and most of the rest of the school) which will have lasting repercussions. It seems to me that to use the word Good about Snape, in any context, is a misnomer. Whatever side (good or bad) he chooses to be on, he is not a good person. After getting that off my chest, I want to explore a bit further the implications of the Snape's-version-of-events assertion. This is how DD finally tells Harry why he trusts Snape. UK Ed Ch25 p 512 "But he did not know ? he had no possible way of knowing ? which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father ?" and then on p513 Harry asks ? " how can you be sure Snape's on our side?" Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." Now why would Snape be so contrite about Voldemort going after James and Lily. Grist to the mill of the Snape/Lily shippers ? the jury is out on that one for me; I never thought it possible until this book, but the Lily being a wow at potions gives it some credibility. Or, there is a VERY BIG problem for Snape if he becomes the instrument responsible for the death of the man who saved his life and to whom he has a life-debt, which I personally think is more likely. (It might be both) We don't yet know what the implications of a life-debt are, and what happens if this debt is abused (for want of a better word). If Voldemort killed James, Snape could have been in a life threatening situation, or worse, a situation of having to live in some sort of perpetual torment. So maybe he went to Dumbledore to try and prevent James death and in doing so, avert that fate. In other words, he went for totally selfish, not altruistic reasons. (I previously posted a really speculative theory, that what DD talks about after taking the potion in the cave is his memory of Snape's remorse ? for those interested it's message 133414). Was it enough to let Snape off the hook, just to go to DD and warn him, or was something else necessary: One speculation is that part of the releasing himself from the punishment Snape would get if James was killed, was to transfer that life debt to Harry ? although Harry would then have two DEs who owe him, sounds like overkill, but thinking about what Harry is going to have to face, he's going to need it. This might also explain Snape's famous DADA "lesson" to Harry as he disappears over the horizon after AKing DD. Or maybe he swore some sort of unbreakable vow, but the problem with that is the 3rd person needed aspect. Dumbledore is not stupid. What is he thinking over in answer to Harry's question? Obviously he is reassessing the situation, but is he also wondering whether to tell Harry about life-debts? I'm not sure. Dumbledore has employed a man for many years whom he knows treats students with cruelty and disrespect (I don't believe he could be ignorant of this fact) and yet he trusts him completely and still allows him to teach. There is something more going on here. Why did DD finally make Snape the DADA teacher when he knows (he tells Harry at the end of Ch20 p 418) that the job is jinxed and he has never before wanted Snape near the Dark Arts? Well my guess is that he finally really started to trust Snape when Snape saved his life after DD destroyed the Ring Horcrux, but it could also imply, that both he and Snape knew that by the end of that year, Snape would probably have to kill DD in order to preserve Draco (thanks for all the posts on that topic, it wasn't something that I had cottoned onto before). I'm still not sure about the DDs-death-is-a- Snape-and-DD-conspiracy, theory, but it would add more to plot twists later. Bringing all this back to Spinners End, Snape would not want LV and the Death Eaters to know that there is a compelling reason why he is still working at Hogwarts and DD trusts him. Because, they would then know that DD has some sort of hold over him. The whole thing with the James and Snape and Sirius thing was hushed up, so no-one really knows about it. Which brings me to a last little point that I'll slip in here ? Sanpes's last detention for Harry, the punishment register. I was fully expecting at that point for Harry to come across information about the whole James-saved-Snape's-life adventure. Maybe that's for book 7. But I think how DD handled that one could be VERY significant. Saraquel From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jul 22 01:07:16 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:07:16 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's > potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, > who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if > Harry reminded him of Snape? > > Possible theories... > a) Snape invented the improved potions recipies but never put them into > practice in class but passed them on to Lily instead. (Highly, > unlikely, since Snape apparently didn't like "mudblood" Lily.) > b) Lily found out all the potion improvements and practiced them in > class. Snape copied down everything she did in his book. While he had > been an average student, he later became a great potions master by > imitating Lily. > > I'd love to know your opinion. > Florentine Per Dumbledore, Slughorn is a "collector". He likes to surround himself with influential people, which in turn makes him influential through his contacts. Slughorn's activities with his Slug Club confirms this. I know people like this in the real world. Frankly, they're kiss-ups. They'll drop names and use flattery to impress. I think that's what he's doing to Harry. The constant praising of Lily is a way to flatter Harry, but Harry's not taking the bait. If you re-read the Slughorns luncheon on the Hogwarts Express, you'll see that flattery in particular with Marcus Belby and Uncle Damoceles. Slughorn is kissing Marcus's rear-end...until he finds out that Marcus and Uncle Damoceles aren't close, then Slughorn turns his attention to Cormac McLaggen and so on. Let's face it, will all the sucking up Slughorn was doing, it's a wonder why they didn't nickname him "Hoover". Milz From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 22 01:09:18 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:09:18 -0000 Subject: The Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133990 Hi, Probably not but Voldemort would have thought twice about attacking the chosen one because he would be thinking about the power the boy will have which the Dark Lord knows not. Bye Adi From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 22 01:13:38 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:13:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore -- portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133991 --- Merrylinks wrote: > On the basis of the new Dumbledore portrait in the > headmistress's office and because of Fawkes's behavior, I'm > sure that Dumbledore is really dead. Not disputing that Dumbledore's dead, but does a former headmaster have to be dead to turn up on a portrait in the office? I had thought they were portraits of all the former headmasters (dead or alive). -- Matt From karen at dacafe.com Fri Jul 22 01:30:23 2005 From: karen at dacafe.com (kmcbears1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:30:23 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes - Hiding Places and Sizes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133992 In reading HBP, the second time I pondered the horcruxes and realized that only 2 pieces of Voldemort's soul are of equal size - the piece in Voldemort and the piece in Nagini. The other pieces are progressively larger until we get to the diary which contain the largest piece - 1/2 of the entire soul. I created a drawing to visual this splitting of Voldemort's soul and posted it at http://www.smartdraw.com/net/viewimage.asp?site=081734F63EC9F0C6=94426 if you wish to view it. I may not have the order correctly but I believe the splitting went as such: diary - age 16 - killed Myrtle - 1/2 ring - age 17 - killed the Riddle's - 1/4 goblet - age 18/19 - killed Hepzibah Smith - 1/8 pendant - age 18/19 - killed ? - 1/16 Griffendor's/Ravenclaw's - age ? - killed ? - 1/32 Tried to use Harry for the 6th horcrux - age about 55 (Tom is 16 in the flashback to 50 years ago which makes him 55 when Harry was 1.) - killed James - curse rebounded because of Lily's sacrifice - Harry's scar was caused by his body rejecting Voldemort's soul Chapter 1 GOF Nagini - age 68 - killed the old man at Riddle's house - 1/64 Leaving a 1/64 piece of Voldemort's soul in his body. How does having such a "small" soul affect Voldemort? Is this a clue to why love is Harry's most powerful asset? From timregan at microsoft.com Fri Jul 22 01:42:59 2005 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:42:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB0216A533@EUR-MSG-20.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 133993 Hi All, Sweetpea (cute name) said: <<< I'm very curious about the relationship between Snape and Lily. She stuck up for him when James was being a bully to Snape. Snapes response to Lily was that he didn't need her help but still he must have secretly appreciated that she stick up for him. My pet theory is that Snape had a secret crush on Lily and is angry at LV for having killed her. If Dumbledore knew about this (if Snape told him that this was his reason for turning against LV) then this secret might be why Dumbledore trusts Snape. >>> Yes, it struck me that there was something odd about this bit: <<< 'Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -' Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter. 'He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?' 'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned -'>>> Now it cold be that Snape's remorse is fake, and that Dumbledore misread him. It could be that Snape felt remorse for James' and Lily's killing, despite his dislike of James and perhaps because of the Shrieking Shack. But if his remorse was real, it seems plausible that a large proportion is down to Lily's death. Cheers, Dumbledad. From jwright at amdocs.com Fri Jul 22 01:21:37 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:21:37 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Hiding Places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133994 > > Janne: > What about Harry? I mean, LV used a snake as a horcrux, no ? And for > Harry's he killed person ... Yeah, yeah that would mean that Harry > canno't kill LV without killing himself but ...That could be > believable ! Pitaprh: Harry cannot be a Horcrux. If LV could not possess Harry's body at the end of OOTP - then how can his body hold a part of LV's soul? From oaksong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 00:52:45 2005 From: oaksong at yahoo.com (oaksong) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:52:45 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133995 [snip] > > I choose to look at Snape's guilt or innocent based upon his entire > HP history not only on fragments in the latest book. I want to keep > an open mind as to what Rowling's verdict will be, rather than put > all my eggs into my basket. As the H-Hr shippers have found, doing > that only resulted in alot of broken eggs. > > Milz The Unbreakable Vow... The issue of the state of the vow hinges on what would happen if Snape fails to kill DD. If failing to kill DD would result in the death of Draco, then DD is automatically dead, regardless of whether or not Snape wants to do this. There is also a strong suggestion that Snape is under the same kind of obediance requirement that Harry is under, from DD. DD has ordered Snape to kill him if the situation calls for it and DD clearly considers himself expendable in the effort to remove Voldemort. Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry? Oaksong. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 02:00:34 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:00:34 -0000 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mt3t3l1" wrote: > > It is unclear to me what caused Dumbledore to be blasted into the air > and then to fall from the tower. Was it the effect of a partially > effective AK coming from Snape? Did Dumbledore accomplish it himself-- > which would make it suicide? (I don't like that explanation, but it > has to be considered.) Does anybody have any other thoughts? Tonks: Maybe it is because of the power that is in DD. He is the most powerful wizard of the age. So the AK met this personal power of the most powerful wizard. One could speculate that Snape used a lot of power himself to do the job, but I think it is the power within DD that exploded. The others that have been AKed were not as powerful. If we remember that in real wizardry, which JKR has undoubtedly researched, the wizard has his own developed power and the ability to harness the power of the universe. So there would be a tremendous amount of power within DD. Also I think that DD even weak, perhaps dying of poison, without a wand could have defended himself even then. It would have been a simple thing for him, powerful as he is. I think that he allowed himself to be killed. I don't believe that anyone could have killed DD if he had not allowed it to happen. Tonks_op From trinity_lsw at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 00:37:03 2005 From: trinity_lsw at hotmail.com (trinity_lsw) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:37:03 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133997 Mandorino: > There's only one thing that bothers me about writing > Snape off as evil... > That's not the only thing that bothers me about this whole idea of Snape being evil. My roomie and I were just theorizing about that and we came to the following conclusions (which might or might not make sense, but anyways...): Snape, it seems, chose neither the Good nor the Bad side... he simply chose well, to stay alive. Why? Here goes: 1. Not wanting to blow his cover in front of Narcissa and Bellatrix, he had no choice but to make the Unbreakable Vow. 2. Now, having made that UV, he had no choice but to protect Draco from harm and finish the job he (Draco) was appointed to, which was to kill Voldiekins. But does that make him necessarily evil? Not really. He could simply have wanted to save his own ass... or not. Here we enter the realm of total speculation. 3.Maybe, I said _maybe_, he was merely obeying and order from DD. Think of it this way: DD has this mysterious total trust in Snape. Now, this kind of blind trust has to have solid backup proofs. I mean, the guy he trusts so deeply was, after all, involved in the deaths of many people, Lily and James Potter included. Now, even if DD does believe that everybody has some mesure of goodness somewhere, he'd still need some serious proof that Snape really had switched sides. What if he asked Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow binding Snape to the Good Cause? 4. Okay. Snape killed DD. Of course, that now puts him under the header "Bad guy" in everybody's mind, doesn't it? What if that was exactly what both DD and Snape wanted? Accepting as true the theory of the Vow, it all makes sense: in order to protect the Good, or something like that, Snape would have been told to do _anything_. That is, even killing a fellow do-gooder... even killing DD himself And, wouldn't that just be something very typical of DD to say? remember, in HBP, he kept reminding Harry how unimportant his blood/life/etc was compaired to Harry's? If Harry, champion of the Cause is more important to DD than his own life, surely the Cause in itself would be, too. Now, Snape having place himself in a dire situation with his Vow to Narcissa, and being force to honor his Vow to DD, he would have killed him and flew, saving both his life and his cover. 5. So does that mean Snape evil? No. Does that mean he is good? No. All this means is that he is alive, probably because he has a very important part to paly in the outcome of the war. Okay, there surely is loads of loopholes to be fond in this theory, but we still find it quite interesting... any thoughts? Trin Ps. On an entirely different topic... Call me blind or stupid, but I couldn't find anywhere evidence that Snape's mother was in Riddle's year. Can someone tell me where that came from? From Janicem211 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 00:25:19 2005 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:25:19 -0000 Subject: Decent Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133998 Marianne, No, I don't think Crabbe and Goyle are about to lead Slytherin into a new period of tolerance and unity, but without Malfoy, they won't have the power or the brains to stop more enlightened students in their House. Also, Slughorn doesn't appear to encourage the Death Eaters' children, so his influence may bring another (non Death Eater) Slytherin student to reach out to other Houses. Think about it - if you were sorted into Slytherin and do not come from a family that supports Voldemort or has a lot of power like the Malfoys, you would probably give anything to either make a bully like Draco like you or leave you alone for seven years. My argument for Zabini goes like this. He doesn't seem to be a member of Malfoy's gang (based on no mentions, until HBP, after his Sorting) and yet says derrogatory things about other witches and wizards (even the Weasleys). Many high school students may say something about someone else they don't believe simply to ensure the popular kids either like them or leave them alone. Jemnilla28 From ngermany at excite.com Fri Jul 22 00:23:51 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:23:51 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: <000c01c58e48$5c7b6f70$020aa8c0@MOMANDDADS> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 133999 Cheryl: > > >I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's > >potions ability to Lily's. It could also be for the same reason that Malfoy is not invited into the "slug club"...Snape hung around the wrong people. His father may well have done something notorious as well elizabeththedragonslayer From oaksong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 00:08:01 2005 From: oaksong at yahoo.com (oaksong) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:08:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134000 Penny: [snip] > > McGonagal doesn't know what is going on with Harry. In fact, no one > from the Order knows. DD would have wanted SOMEONE to be there to > make sure Harry had all of the tools he needs to do what he needs to do. > [snip] > > I'm just still falling on the side that says that Snape's loyalty is > not to DD. Oaksong: You may have shot yourself in the foot a bit here. You mention SOMEONE in the first paragraph above, and then refuse to accept the possibility that Snape is the someone. Examine the evidence.... There seems to be a gathering argument the Snape has more than one Unbreakable Vow going. And we all know logically consistent this huge work has been, where what is revealed rests squarley on previously provided evidence. From rfresa at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:59:15 2005 From: rfresa at yahoo.com (Rebekah) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:59:15 -0000 Subject: Yet another Horcrux theory post... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134001 One person whose death might have been used to create a Horcrux is former Order of the Phoenix member Dorcas Meadowes. Mad-Eye Moody told Harry that she was important enough to be killed by Voldemort personally. That's all we know about her, though. Rebekah From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 02:13:21 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:13:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fifth Years Message-ID: <8.6ccaea1b.3011b041@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134002 In a message dated 7/21/2005 5:48:30 PM Central Standard Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: Geoff: In fact, I don't think they did - or not during the currency of the book... Yes they did. Read a little further. The White Tomb Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The beautiful weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if Durnbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of the year, Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted ... and hour by hour, he put off saying the thing that he knew he must say, doing what he knew it was right to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vlngrrl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 23:56:44 2005 From: vlngrrl at yahoo.com (vlngrrl) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:56:44 -0000 Subject: GOF (sort of) Where was Harry's "Avada"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134003 Leon wrote: > But where was the Avada for Harry? Shouldn't it have come before > James/Lily? > > The point being that I would have suspected Avada (even a failed one) > to show up in the Priori effect. But perhaps something like the > Horcrux spell might not. I don't know if I agree. It would make sense that Harry's scar would be a Horcrux, because I happen to agree with the speculation that Harry and Voldemort BOTH die in book 7. However, the Priori scene can be interpreted a different way. In the GoF (p. 697), Dumbledore explains to Harry what Priori Incantatum is. "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse...All that would have happened is a kind of reverse echo. A shadow of the living Cedric would have emerged from the wand." I interpret this to mean that all successful spells would have been seen. Or possibly all AK spells, because to regurgitate ALL spells that wizards cast with their wands would be tedious. Harry's spell, although AK, was unsuccessful, and therefore would not have appeared in the PI. Sarah (who, although unsure if that made any sense, knows what she means.) From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 21 23:36:33 2005 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:36:33 -0400 Subject: Why So Afraid of Death Message-ID: <001801c58e4d$072f1800$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 134004 In pondering HBP, I find myself wondering why Voldemort was so afraid of dying? Even as an 11 year old, he seemed to have this fear. Just because his mother died and left him an orphan? Maybe. But it seems like there should be a more deep-seated reason why he should so fear death. more random thoughts on HBP Witherwings [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 02:14:42 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:14:42 -0000 Subject: In Essence Divided In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iadoreharry" wrote: > Anyone remember in OOTP when Harry has the vision of Arthur being > injured by the snake, DD consults some sort of instrument on his desk > and sort of mumbles to himself "But in essence divided" or separate or > something like that? That makes me think Harry could be a Horcrux but > is his own person, sort of an extension of LV, but divided. Way out > there...... No, not Harry, but Nagini. Isn't this what makes DD suspect that Nagini is the Horcrux? Saraquel From inthesky33 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 23:24:16 2005 From: inthesky33 at yahoo.ca (inthesky33) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:24:16 -0000 Subject: A Different Opinion - Hermione... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134006 I don't really think JKR messed with Hermione's character at all. She's still anal about getting the best and highest marks, highly opinionated, and insightful about things in a way Harry is not (ie the potions book...). If you are referring to the whole Ron/Lavender business and how Hermione reacted, isn't that normal? And wouldn't it be typical of alot of young, inexperienced 16 year old girls to be (a) jealous when someone is "snogging" the boy that they like and (b) try to get them jealous in return by doing a few silly things like attending a party with Mclaggen? I think we just haven't seen this side of Hermione before. In the interview JKR did with Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron she mentions how being extremely intelligent doesn't mean someone can't make emotional mistakes. She said this about Dumbledore but it could easily apply to Hermione and even Ron or Harry. They're just kids and I think JKR was accurately portraying that. Inthesky From inthesky33 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 21 23:14:55 2005 From: inthesky33 at yahoo.ca (inthesky33) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:14:55 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134007 My guess is that it had something to do with Snape's previously discussed childhood. He was relentlessly teased by James Potter and his gang and perhaps they called him a Coward. I think it will be something that will be better understood after book 7. Inthesky From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 02:19:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:19:29 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134008 Milz wrote: I think the readership has been playing with their own expectations. The best example is the Harry-Hermione shipper thing. Read Rowlings comments about "dropping heavy anvils" about the Ron-Hermione relationship in the previous books (she points to PoA specifically). Then read the H-HR shippers arguments. I pointed out in a previous thread that these shippers tend to heavily identify with either Harry or Hermione or both. This identification is to the point where they don't acknowledge the "heavy anvils" crashing on their heads when they read them. So I think they build their own expectations up and reinforce these expectations by constant rumination on their beliefs. When Rowling is unequivocal, they head for denial and make up even more theories why they are still right to cling to their hopes and desires. The Draco and Snape apologists have the same problem (see Rowling's idea on that subject---it's very true and I share her concern as well). I try not to read between the letters because I've learned that these books are best enjoyed when taken at face value. vmonte: Wow, I agree with you completely. You know, Judas is the most hated man in Christianity; but I bet that that is the kind of recognition and celebrity Snape would kill for. Vivian - Who was a Harry with Ginny and Hermione with Ron shipper but who also had way-out theories herself. :) From karen at dacafe.com Fri Jul 22 02:33:03 2005 From: karen at dacafe.com (kmcbears1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:33:03 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "trinity_lsw" wrote: > 2. Now, having made that UV, he had no choice but to protect Draco > from harm and finish the job he (Draco) was appointed to, which was > to kill Voldiekins. But does that make him necessarily evil? Not > really. He could simply have wanted to save his own ass... or not. > > Draco was under orders to kill Dumbledore. Draco would be the hero of the wizarding world if he killed Voldie! - Karen From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 02:35:08 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:35:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134010 In a message dated 7/21/2005 9:20:00 PM Central Standard Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: Then read the H-HR shippers arguments. I pointed out in a previous thread that these shippers tend to heavily identify with either Harry or Hermione or both. This identification is to the point where they don't acknowledge the "heavy anvils" crashing on their heads when they read them. Excuse me? I identify with neither Harry nor Hermione (nor Ron or Ginny come to think of it. . I'm much more like Luna) but I can think of 2 "Anvils" that Ms. Rowling apparently forgot about. Krum's jealousy of Harry in GOF and Cho's jealousy of Hermione in OOTP. Not Ron and not Ginny, Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 02:41:57 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:41:57 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: >Milz: Wow! Emerson is catching the heat from the H-Hr shippers at Mugglenet.com. Some of those shippers are also lashing out at Rowling and threatening never to read another Harry Potter book again... Grapes sour much? Now me: Actually Milz, it's not that. It's that it was done in such a poor way. I know I have been one of those fans that have argued long and hard that H/Hr might actually be the way JK Rowling was developing the books. It was a long-shot, but the theories we developed were painstakingly researched and meticulously put together. It's not that we didn't see the `anvil-like' clues, its just it didn't make sense to us in terms of Hermione's character and behaviour and so we looked for other explanations and thought we might have found them. (I still wonder about Hermione's characterisation, but that's another post). The reason so many H/Hr shippers are now reacting so emotionally is that, not only were their hopes dashed (as were many people's who had come up with much beloved theories that were sunk in HBP) but they were dashed quite rudely too. If I remember correctly, those who hypothesised that Ron was Dumbledore (despite very little evidence) were congratulated on having developed an ingenious theory. Those who have postulated that Neville and Luna might form a relationship were gently let down. For some reason, it is the H/Hr shippers who were made to endure barbs from other fans about being delusional, goaded on by the author about the `anvil like' clues that we missed and would somehow pick up if we read the books again (read them 100 times already, thanks), and then called `angry' and `militant' by the author herself. She even had another go at us in her note on her website about the interview with Emmerson, which I feel is in very poor taste. (Not to mention the nice little jabs she had at the hippogriff-love theory in the narrative itself). I mean, we got it. Its sunk. Its okay to stop now. I don't mind that the books have gone a different way to what I expected (hey that's mystery writing for you and half the fun is having a go at predicting what comes next). I do wonder at the vitriol and at why it was felt at all necessary. I fully accept that we saw more there than there was to see but isn't engaging with the text in a deeper way something that should be encouraged by the author and not discouraged? (I'm sorry if I offend. It's just by way of explanation). Sienna From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 22 02:53:49 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:53:49 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134012 --- "Florentine Maier" wrote: > Florentine: > I find it ... peculiar that Slughorn ... compares Harry's > potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn (was) teaching Snape too, > who (was) in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if > Harry reminded him of Snape? > > Possible theories... > a) Snape invented the improved potions ... but passed them on to > Lily instead. (Highly, unlikely, since Snape apparently didn't > like "mudblood" Lily.) > b) Lily found out all the potion improvements and practiced them in > class. Snape copied down everything she did in his book. ...> > Sweetpea (cute name) said: Message 133993 > <<< ... relationship between Snape and Lily. She > stuck up for him when James was being a bully to Snape. ... > My pet theory is that Snape had a secret crush on Lily > and is angry at LV for having killed her. If Dumbledore knew about > this ... then this secret might be why Dumbledore trusts > Snape. >>> > > <<< 'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he > realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I > believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason > that he returned -'>>> aussie says: My 1st posting about this was message 132975:- Snape, a Slytherin student with ambitions, had call himself a "Half- Blood"? It is not title you would give yourself to advance your position in that house. It seems "HBP" would endear him to muggle borns, (ie. Lilly) The text directions that Harry followed reminded Slughorn of Lilly's talent. So did Lilly and Snape swap notes on Potions? And what else did they exchange? Remember that JKR was going to include HBP in Harry's 2nd year. I suggest similar notes in a 2nd year's book would show a SHIP earlier in Lilly's student years before James was an item. Bringing HBP into the 2nd last year of a students life at Hogwarts still gives James time to make his move on Lilly. Dumbledore was assured Snape showed REMORSE after he caused the death of Lilly (and James who he owed a life debt to). Dumbledore may have double checked his remorse with things we have already seen. (eg: the pledge the DA members had to sign, or the Unbreakable Vow) aussie. From Janicem211 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 00:13:18 2005 From: Janicem211 at aol.com (jemnilla28) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:13:18 -0000 Subject: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 In-Reply-To: <13d.179b63ee.3010fd53@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134013 Hermione was of age during most of her sixth year (she turned 17) and she passed the Apparition test. Still, I agree that Hogwarts itself should come back in Book 7! Jemnilla28 From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 00:19:55 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:19:55 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134014 RMM said: > For reasons why HH could have gotten together I refer you to Penny > Linsenmayer's excellent essay on H/Hr. You can read it here: > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html > > 'Nuff said, since the point is moot anyway and the illusions are > dashed. > > Just call me delusional, > RMM Casmir- I read it. Very interesting. I never got involved in any shipping debate until recently, I found them pointless. And honestly, if the R/HR hadn't been so blatant, I could have fallen for that explanation. It was very subtle, tender and nice. -Casmir who is delusional w/o the help of Hermione and Harry :) From allthingshp at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 02:37:37 2005 From: allthingshp at yahoo.com (allthingshp) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:37:37 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "romulusmmcdougal" wrote: > Ron has never impressed me as one who has > great magical ability, nor as one that will be any kind of factor in > the Good versus Evil aspect of the story. TLC interviewer and JKR both expressed concern over these "fans" who dislike Ron. If you can't appreciate Harry's best friend, recognize his importance to Harry (not just as sidekick) in the ultimate showdown, and forgive him the immaturity that is natural for a 16 year old teenage boy, I can't imagine we are reading the same books. >From the interview: MA: I have to tell you, I'm looking forward to [this coming out], because, you know, a lot of this is predicated upon a necessary hate for another character. Ron has suffered horribly at the hands of Harry/Hermione shippers. JKR: That bit makes me very uncomfortable, actually. Yeah, that bit does make me uncomfortable. -allthingshp From RainItRaineth.11326399 at bloglines.com Fri Jul 22 02:32:33 2005 From: RainItRaineth.11326399 at bloglines.com (RainItRaineth.11326399 at bloglines.com) Date: 22 Jul 2005 02:32:33 -0000 Subject: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) Message-ID: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134016 Sorry if this has been posted before! I haven't seen it yet (which doesn't mean it's not there), but I have tried to go through most of the new messages.... BTW, this is my first time posting, though I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts for some time now. :) Okay, as we know, HP is translated into many languages and occasionally, the names do not directly translate (they start with different letters). So, if we assume that RAB is Regulus Black, the initials will have to change when the note is translated, right? I'd assume the JKR would tell the translators who RAB is so that the three initials would be correct. For example, look how much the name Sirius Black differs. Black is often literally translated as the color black, which might start with a different letter than, say, the word for Bone or Burke. Ergo, it could help us definitively deduce who RAB is! Chinese: Xiao-tian-lang-xing Bu-lai-ke Danish: Sirius Zwarts Finnish: Sirius Musta Norwegian: Sirius Svaart Polish: Syriusz Czarny Now, I know the HBP translations don't come out for a couple months, but does anyone have a copy of another translated HP book (where the initials are changed for Black)? We could see how they translated Black, Bone, and Burke, etc.; if the last names do start with different letters, we could then have something to look for in the HBP translations. Cheers, Emily From emmeline at emmelinechang.com Fri Jul 22 02:45:35 2005 From: emmeline at emmelinechang.com (anxin1324fanfic) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:45:35 -0000 Subject: Structure and choices: (evil?)Snape, horcruxes, what's to come... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134017 I find it hard to believe Snape can be evil. Structurally, it doesn't make sense. JKR has repeatedly talked about the importance of choices: Harry is a Gryffindor instead of Slytherin because he made a choice, Dumbledore has talked about the importance of choices shaping who we are, JKR has talked about the importance of choices in numerous interviews... Character choices are what make fiction interesting. And stories have to be structured so those choices can be brought out, and character can be revealed--at the right time. So, given that HBP is the next-to-last book, and that everything is building towards the climax of Book 7, we have to think about what story elements have been set up, and what choices are left. 1) House unity The Sorting Hat has been going on and on about the importance of interhouse unity, but we haven't yet seen this. Harry and his friends (with some exceptions in Hermione's case) still have yet to see beyond their negative gut reactions to the Slytherins. We already know that Salazar Slytherin's leaving was a splintering of sorts for Hogwarts. I believe this series will be in part about a healing of that rift. It's love Harry will need to prevail--and I think it will be love for the difficult characters: Snape and Draco, and probably Riddle/Voldemort too. (How hard is it for him to love his friends? That's not a big enough challenge on which to base the culmination of a seven-book, thousands-of-pages long series!) If Harry's going to have to find common ground with some Slytherins, structurally it's going to have to be Snape and Draco. (Blaise Zabini? Crabbe and Goyle? Come on!) He will have to learn to move beyond his first emotional reactions to them, see their humanity, and accept them as allies--in whatever small or unexpected ways they manifest that--before he can truly defeat Voldemort. I think interspecies unity (centaurs overcoming their hatred of humans, humans overcoming their disdain for house elves and their fear/hatred of giants, werewolves, etc.) will also play a role in the final battle. 2) Harry, Snape, and Draco Everyone has to make choices. And for the story to work dramatically, they have to be interesting choices. Ron, Hermione, the rest of the DADA crew, and the members of the OOTP do not have seriously interesting choices left. Does anyone doubt that any of these people would sacrifice themselves for Harry if need be? These characters' actions are a matter of WHO will have to and HOW it will happen. Somewhat interesting, but not the base for the climax of a seven-book series. And it's unlikely that Bellatrix or the minor death eaters will do anything other than the predictable. I think that leaves the interesting choices to Snape, Draco, and Harry (with Snape and Draco being the most interesting... because who relly believes Harry is going to choose evil in the end?) So Snape can't be purely evil. If Snape and Draco are purely evil, that doesn't leave any interesting choices to lead into the climax and finale. (Peter Pettigrew, will make a choice, I believe, but that's not big enough a foundation of choice for the final book of the series.) JKR has already dropped some hints: Draco was unable to kill Dumbledore, demonstrating that he may be mean and nasty, but he isn't purely evil. Snape's killing of Dumbledore was lacking in that final "I'm the bad guy and this is why I did what I did" speech that has come at the ending of every book (the "bad guy" scenario was more ambiguous, initially, with Sirius and Peter Pettigrew in PoA, but we still got the summation speeches). I think the lack of summation speech on Snape's part--and the fact that Dumbledore is not a man who is afraid of death or who pleads for mercy--may be telling. Snape and Draco (particularly Snape)--and Harry, in his choices about how he reacts to them--will be given the interesting Book 7 choices. That, I believe, is going to be at the heart of Book 7. 3) Other choices on which storylines (both large and small) may turn * Peter Pettigrew He owes some kind of wizard-debt to Harry for saving his life. He is a Gryffindor who has yet to show any bravery. Book 7 is the time. I suspect he'll take some small stand against Voldemort (even if out of self-preserving defiance rather than love for others) that will tip the balance of events. * Percy's leaving his family I find it hard to imagine that this storyline will be left dangling. Percy and the Weasleys are important enough that JKR will probably want to resolve this plot thread in some way. Also, he is a Gryffindor, but we have yet to see any true bravery on his part (yes, he stood up to his father, but I think structurally we will need to see more). Percy will make some kind of choice in Book 7--taking some action that requires courage (standing against the Ministry and for some member of his family--saving Ron in some way?--is my guess). * GRAWP and Hagrid Definitely being set up for some future action in the big events to come. 3) Horcruxes and Hogwarts I think we're going back to Hogwarts for Year 7. Harry may not want to or plan to, but I believe much of book 7 will take place there. First of all, EVERYTHING has been at Hogwarts, and I think structural unity will take us there again. Second (and more importantly), I think all or most of the horcruxes are there. JKR has implied this by saying that some of the horcruxes are the founders' objects... I think that structurally, JKR will have four of the horcruxes be an object from each of the Founders. Hogwarts is a foundational place in the British wizarding world--what better way for Voldemort to cement his power than to imbue something from each founder with a part of his soul? The current postulation about the horcruxes (locket, something from Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, Nagini) seems horribly unbalanced to me and smacks of red herrings. Anxin From kneazle24 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 02:51:24 2005 From: kneazle24 at yahoo.com (kneazle24) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:51:24 -0000 Subject: Literary References in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134018 I don't generally notice literary references in JKR's books, but there are 2 that struck me in HBP. One--Robert Browning's poem, "Childe Roland" which mentions a slughorn and features a lone, bitter knight on an impossible quest to reach a dark tower. Two--Some of Winston Churchill's WWII speeches mention the sun or "sunlit" like this bit from his "Finest Hour" Speech: "Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'" Pretty interesting in light of Harry's resolution at the end of HBP. I think #7 is going to be pretty grim. Kneazle24 From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 03:09:47 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:09:47 -0000 Subject: there's more to HP than the ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allthingshp" wrote: > TLC interviewer and JKR both expressed concern over these "fans" who dislike Ron. If you > can't appreciate Harry's best friend, recognize his importance to Harry (not just as > sidekick) in the ultimate showdown, and forgive him the immaturity that is natural for a 16 > year old teenage boy, I can't imagine we are reading the same books. > > From the interview: > > MA: I have to tell you, I'm looking forward to [this coming out], because, you know, a lot of > this is predicated upon a necessary hate for another character. Ron has suffered horribly at > the hands of Harry/Hermione shippers. > > JKR: That bit makes me very uncomfortable, actually. Yeah, that bit does make me > uncomfortable. > Once again I feel I have to butt in to defend my ship. *sigh* This statement from TLC's interviewer: "... lot of this is predicated upon a necessary hate for another character. Ron has suffered horribly at the hands of Harry/Hermione shippers" Is incorrect. Both H/Hr and non-H/Hr shippers disliked Ron. I, for instance, liked Ron (just not for Hermione). No theories surrounding H/Hr were 'predicated' on *hatred* (a very strong word) of Ron. Just another barb we were forced to endure. Why so much vilification? Sienna From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:17:17 2005 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:17:17 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - editing suggestion for OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134020 I noticed in the MN/TLC interview with JKR she talked about OotP being overly long but challenged anyone to say where it could be cut. Well, I would have to say I never understood why there was an entire chapter devoted to Hagrid and Madam Maxime's journey to the giants. IMO that was the most boring (actual only boring) chapter of all HP books to date. Maybe it will come into play in book seven and that's why its there. Thoughts? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 03:33:40 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:33:40 -0000 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134021 Vivamus: > > A. Did anyone notice that the AK does *NOT* blast things? > > > > What if, as someone else already has suggested, Snape did not mean > > the AK at all... > Merrylinks: > Yes! Yes! I saw that, too. On the basis of the new Dumbledore > portrait in the headmistress's office and because of Fawkes's > behavior, I'm sure that Dumbledore is really dead. But the effect of > Snape's AK was unlike any successful AK we have seen so far in the > books. Dumbledore should have expired instantaneously, slumping to > the floor because his legs would no longer support him, but with > eyes open and with no change in his facial expression. > > It is unclear to me what caused Dumbledore to be blasted into the > air and then to fall from the tower. Was it the effect of a > partially effective AK coming from Snape? Did Dumbledore accomplish > it himself -- which would make it suicide? (I don't like that > explanation, but it has to be considered.) Does anybody have any > other thoughts? > Merrylinks Valky: Yep. It also explains something I just not long ago today had pointed out to me, that there was also some apparent evidence of the two legilimens communicating silently with each other before it happened. "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face." I need not point out again the hatred and revulsion were what Harry felt too.. yada yada.. just assume I did to back my theory of the legilimensing conversation between Snape and Dumbledore.. Dumbledore speaks aloud: Severus.. Dumbledore offers thoughts: You have to do it here.. it doesn't matter we are running out of time.. make it look right.. Snape hates himself, is repulsed by what he has to do but... Dumbledore speaks: Severus, Please... Snape didn't do the Avada Kedavra. He Occlumensed everyone in the room, spoke the words "Avada Kedavra" and voicelessly cast a blasting spell coupled with a hover charm for effect.. DE's are impressed, It's over, Snape leaves. Dumbledores last breath leaves him as he lays on the ground below the Astronomy Tower. Fawkes heart breaks as he follows his masters strict orders and refrains himself from crying.. he begins to wail in his mourning song.. Curtain closes on Dumbledores last act. Valky Who, yes, *definitely* believes in WillingSacrifice!Dumbledore and Innocent!Snape. P.S. Snape later tells Harry how he did it, perhaps? Blocked again and again til you keep your mouth shut and your mind closed.. etc etc From vlngrrl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:30:08 2005 From: vlngrrl at yahoo.com (vlngrrl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:30:08 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134022 Forgive me if somebody has already suggested this, but I was just rereading chapter 2 of HBP, and I realized something. When Cissy spoke to Snape about what Draco had been asked to do, Snape knew about this already. Is it possible that Snape heard about Draco's task, and has already spoken to Dumbledore about it? Dumbledore made Snape swear to use any means necessary to prevent Draco from killing him, much the same way as he made Harry swear to force-feed him that potion in the cave. The reason why Snape could make the unbreakable vow was because he had already promised Dumbledore the same. Killing DD would be essentially keeping his vow to DD AND looking good to Voldemort at the same time. Everybody wins. Sarah (who doesn't really like Snape, but wants to believe he isn't as black and white as it may seem) From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:33:06 2005 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:33:06 -0000 Subject: Theories and Musings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134023 First, let me say I had to wait SIX whole days before getting my hands on a copy ... I currently live on a US Army post in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Once I got it though, it didn't take me long to be amazed. I found HBP to be more witty than the rest of the books, thus far. There were lines that just cracked me up. Overall, I am incredibly impressed, once again, that such a story could come from one mind. And now on to some points to ponder ... I was initially shocked with the Unbreakable Vow, but then reasoned that Snape had to do it, or he would have appeared more guilty to Bellatrix. Snape had to have known that Bellatrix did not trust him, as he had been at Hogwarts with DD for so long, therefore, must have expected something like the Unbreakable Vow to come up at some point. If Snape really is a good guy (having a hard time believing it right now), then he and DD would have discussed a appropriate course of action. The UV makes sense. May seem like a small point but ... DD didn't make Harry a prefect in OotP because (forgive me if I misquote, I am at work, without books) Harry had "enough to be getting on with". So why would he give him the Gryffindor Quidditch team captaincy? Isn't that just as much, if not more, work for Harry than being a prefect? I was REALLY glad to see Harry and Ginny get together and I LOVED the line that followed the initial kiss ... regarding time ... (again, please forgive me) "...few moments ... couple of hours ... several sunlit days...". And seeking Ron's approval was a classy thing to do, even for a 16 year old as old as Harry. (Sounds like a bizarre sentence, but think about it ...) I was sad when Harry ended it, but I have faith they will get back together. I knew Draco wasn't as big a man as he said he was. I initially thought his mission was to somehow free his father from prison. I really didn't see him trying to kill DD. That caught me by surprise. But, looking back, everything he had said/done pointed to something quite drastic. I feel completely betrayed by Snape. HOW COULD HE? After all that DD had done for him. I am hoping against all odds that it wasn't really Snape. That it was Bellatrix using Polyjuice Potion. I know it is incredibly unlikely, but like DD, I want to see the best in Snape ... the slimey git. Of course, the big hole in my theory is ... if Bellatrix was using Polyjuice Potion, where was Snape? I read someone else's post that suggested perhaps R.A.B. was Regulus Black. I had the same thought. I looked through OotP and couldn't find his middle name mentioned anywhere, when Harry and Sirius were looking at the Black Family tree. Harry not going back to Hogwarts? I have a tough time believing he's done with school for good. And he doesn't have to stay with the Dursley's very long ... DD told him that when he picked him up at the beginning of HBP. So back to the Burrow for Bill and Fleur's wedding (poor Bill) and maybe Tonks and Lupin's as well (wouldn't that be wonderful?) and then off to Godric's Hollow and the search for the rest of the Horcruxes (what a GREAT word), but leaving school for good? Can't be possible. Ron and Hermione have to be Head Boy/Girl(friend) and Gryffindor needs their Seeker. Another 2 years before #7? I will be at my local bookstore and not in the middle of the ocean, I can't possibly wait 6 days again! Thank you for tolerating my musings, I couldn't read everyone's posts before posting ... there are so many!! Off to start reading some more ... maybe HBP, maybe some posts ... Michelle, a lurker for the past few years ... :) From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:32:54 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:32:54 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134024 oaksong: > > There is also a strong suggestion that Snape is under the same kind of > obediance requirement that Harry is under, from DD. DD has ordered > Snape to kill him if the situation calls for it and DD clearly > considers himself expendable in the effort to remove Voldemort. > > Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to > protect Harry? > That is definitely a possibility. I think that, in his meeting with Narcissa and Bellatrix, Snape left out a lot more information than he shared... For instance, he satisfied them with his explanation about Quirrell, but he did not tell them that he actually worked to SAVE Harry's life during that Quidditch match. If he was using the Occlumency lessons more for Voldemort's gain than by Dumbledore's orders, I believe he would have said so as well. All signs seem to point to Dumbledore now being satisfied that Harry has the knowledge that he needs and he is ready to face death, and willing to when that means protecting Harry and even Draco. If Snape were really acting out of loyalty to Voldemort, I think he would have handled that whole scene much differently. - Marianne S. From hautbois1 at comcast.net Fri Jul 22 03:34:05 2005 From: hautbois1 at comcast.net (ohnooboe) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:34:05 -0000 Subject: Harry Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134025 It seems to me that a wizard who is going to create a horcrux is doing so in a very deliberate manner. Voldemort has devoted his "life" to living...creating these horcruxes in order to beat death. One step for LV to beat death (beyond the horcruxes) is to ensure that the subject of SPT's prophecy does not live to do LV harm. Therefore, he goes to the Potter home to kill Harry. Why then can it be speculated that Harry's scar is a horcrux. Like I said, creating a horcrux seems to be very deliberate magic. I would guess that when you set out to kill someone and the AK rebounds on you, you don't accidently create a horcrux for your soul within the head of the person you intended to kill. Pat...who is curious... From prep0strus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:33:15 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (Adam Corbett) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:33:15 -0000 Subject: underage magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hpdmieboq" wrote: > > I was rereading the book and realized that DD did a lot of magic at > Harry's house and according to what DD says about underage magic > later, Harry should be blamed for it. Maybe it's that Harry's already passed his OWLs, even though he hasn't gotten the letter, and so won't be underage. That, or Dumbledore, as Headmaster of Hogwarts, will be able to instantly get rid of any accusations since he was present and performing the magic. Or maybe, you just don't question 'The Chosen One'. :) Whatever it was, I'm glad he did it - that scene was great. ~Prep0strus From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:26:05 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:26:05 -0000 Subject: A Different Opinion - Hermione... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134027 inthesky33 at y...> wrote: > I don't really think JKR messed with Hermione's character at all. Schumar1999: Wasn't Hermione was also totally oblivious to Krum's feelings toward her? I find it a completely realistic and in characther that Ron and Hermione can't get it together... people who are brave and wise can also be scared and stupid about certain things. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:35:46 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:35:46 -0000 Subject: WHEN PAM HAS BOTOX/GOODBYE WRINKLES, part 2 (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134028 TortieKitten wrote: ...edited... Lowering her voice, TortieKitten continued. "I know that many people would probably scream at me for this repeated theory. But mine is different. My belief is that Harry was not *intended* to be a Horcrux. Instead, Voldemort's soul had been split when he killed Lily and James, and when he attempted to kill Harry, part of his soul entered Harry without either of them noticing." Juli: But if Harry is the sixth Horcrux, then in order for Voldemort to be truly vanquished, then Harry must die before him. And if harry's dead who's supposed to kill LV? Or is there any other way to destroy an Horcrux? We know the Horcrux!Diary was killed when Harry stabbed the diary with a basilik's teeth, then Dumbledore cracked the Marvolo Ring and destroyed the Horcrux. So as I see it, if Harry is indeed an Horcrux, then he must be killed before Voldemort, which I doubt could happen. > "Well, I don't think Snape is ESE!," "I believe, as many do, that Snape was looking out for number one," TortieKitten said, "and that when faced with the decision to break his Vow or to break Dumbledore's trust, he took the one that was less likely to kill him, and moved on." She gave Kaylee another squirt gun to read. Juli: So according to you, even if Snape isn't evil, he's a murderer? He'd rather save his ass, than save the one person who's trust him all along? This seems incredibly selfish to me, and I don't really see Snape as selfish, an arrogant bastard, yes, but not selfish. He must have known that if he killed Dumbledore, half the wizard world would come for him, so he'd be as good as dead anyway. I believe Snape murdered DD because he was ordered to do so, Dumbledore begged him to end his life (and in the meantime save Draco's). Of course I could be completly wrong. Juli - Wellcome TortieKitten, I hope you enjoy yourself. And BTW, your anagram made me laugh, a lot. From ccampboyle at comcast.net Fri Jul 22 03:35:58 2005 From: ccampboyle at comcast.net (ccampboyle) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:35:58 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134029 I have to say, Spinner's End left me convinced Snape was a good guy, mainly because it was just too early in the book and too obvious a way of saying "look, Snape's bad." I was stunned by the Avada Kedavra, and then by Snape's ongoing cruelty to Harry, and almost came around to the ESE view. However, two things keep me from believing in ESE Snape. First, as we all know, Harry is a lousy Occlumens. If Snape has some crucial role to play in a final showdown in which Harry and Snape are both present, Harry can't be thinking Snape will help or LV will suss it out. And I think Snape does have some role to play, since it is quite clear Harry still does not have the skills to play ball with LV. Skills can't be why Harry is the one to defeat LV; if skill were all that's necessary, I would think DD would have filled the bill nicely. But if Harry thinks Snape is bad to the bone, and exuding anger towards him, that ought to fool LV nicely. Secondly, aside from the literary reasons DD had to die (the mentor has to die in the hero's journey before the hero separates and matures), I strongly suspect DD had some magical reason for dying. His death may have cemented some spell or magic just as Lily's did. (Shades of Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.)I think the phoenix shape arising at DD's funeral has some relationship to this. If DD knew he had to die anyway, having Snape kill him would give Snape that perfect cover with LV I already mentioned he needed before the final showdown. As for why DD trusted Snape, I'm inclined to go along with the idea Snape was devestated by Lily's death (notice Lupin says Snape hated James, he doesn't say James and Lily.) This doesn't mean Snape is a nice guy; I'm sure he did hate James, and I'm sure Harry, who looks just like James, but with Lily's eyes, is a constant reminder that his enemy got the girl. And I agree with those who cite Snape's mere blocking of Harry's spells, combined with his comments about using non-verbal spells and his anger at being called a coward, as evidence of an extraordinary amount of restraint for one ESE. Cathy From prep0strus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:24:10 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (Adam Corbett) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:24:10 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: <001e01c58e35$a36c6cd0$2b62acce@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134030 Cathy wrote: > I've been wondering what will happen to the current years' fifth years (Ginny's) class.. I'm also curious - what's the deal with prefect assignments? Are they only assigned every three years? Are there prefects in every class 5 and up? It doesn't seem to be that way, because I can't imagine Ginny wouldn't be prefect - if Ron can do it, Ginny sure can. ~Prep0strus From derek at rhinobunny.com Fri Jul 22 03:39:56 2005 From: derek at rhinobunny.com (Derek Hiemforth) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:39:56 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "McGovern" wrote: > How can Harry be a Horcrux? > > In order to completely destroy Voldemort he would have to kill > Voldemort - but then he himself would be keeping Voldemort alive? > (or stopping him from dieing) And from LV's point of view, that's the very attraction of making Harry the Gryffindor Horcrux. :-) The prophecy said (by LV's reading) that either Harry would kill him or he would kill Harry. By making Harry a Horcrux, he would be covering all possible bets. Because as long as Harry is alive, then LV can't be killed either because he has Harry as a Horcrux. But if Harry is killed, then LV wins, because the "Chosen One" didn't slay him! In fact, I suspect that may be why LV tried to kill Harry in the first place. When getting the other known Horcruxes associated with the Four Founders, LV slew one of that Founder's descendents in process. (He killed a Hufflepuff descendent in getting the goblet, and a Slytherin descendent in getting the locket.) If Harry (and James) are descendents of Gryffindor (as seems likely), then that pattern would still hold; LV slew a Gryffindor descendent (James) to get the Gryffindor- related Horcrux (Harry himself). Then having accomplished this, he simply decides to kill Harry right then and there! Sure, this means he'll lose the soul fragment he just invested in Harry, but that's a small price (to LV) to pay for assured victory, right? Only he didn't count on Lily's sacrifice. So not only could he not just kill Harry, but he'd also now invested his enemy with some of his soul, perhaps boosting his power (and giving him such things as the ability to speak Parseltongue). - Derek From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jul 22 03:50:42 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:50:42 -0500 Subject: The Fifth Years References: <1121999592.8082.99275.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002b01c58e70$8c40b760$f6a1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 134032 Geoff wrote: > > In fact, I don't think they did - or not during the currency of the > > book... And then Melissa > Yes they did. Read a little further. > weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if > Durnbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very > end of > the year, Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted > ... Now Richelle: I understood that same paragraph to say they didn't take exams. It says Harry _could imagine_ how it would have been _if Dumbledore had not died_ and they had this time together. Leading into the next phrase, _if Dumbledore had not died_ then Ginny's examinations would've been finished, etc. Richelle From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:58:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:58:43 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134034 Cathy: > And I agree with those who cite Snape's mere blocking of Harry's > spells, combined with his comments about using non-verbal spells and > his anger at being called a coward, as evidence of an extraordinary > amount of restraint for one ESE. Alla: I am not quite sure why many posters keep saying that Snape only blocked Harry's spells. He did respond with rather nasty spell, no? "And he slashed at the air: Harry felt a white - hot, whiplike something hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes and for a moment all the breath seemed to have gone from his body, then he heard a rush of wings above him and something enormous obscured the stars." - HBP, p.604. I mean you can argue that prior to that Snape saved him from Crucio, or you can argue that he simply was following the Orders from his Lord Thingy. You can argue that he was giving Harry tips how to fight OR you can argue that he was simply gloating and in the great tradition of such stories was giving Harry tips unwillingly. But if you follow Snape as ESE intepretation, one can argue that when Harry called him a Coward, Snape could not keep his heart desires quiet anymore and finally attacked Harry. Who knows which spells Harry would have to endure from Snape if Buckbeak would not show up. JMO, Alla. From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:09:10 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:09:10 -0000 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mt3t3l1" wrote: > > > > It is unclear to me what caused Dumbledore to be blasted into the > air > > and then to fall from the tower. Was it the effect of a partially > > effective AK coming from Snape? Did Dumbledore accomplish it > himself-- > > which would make it suicide? (I don't like that explanation, but > it > > has to be considered.) Does anybody have any other thoughts? > > > Tonks: > Maybe it is because of the power that is in DD. He is the most > powerful wizard of the age. So the AK met this personal power of > the most powerful wizard. One could speculate that Snape used a lot > of power himself to do the job, but I think it is the power within > DD that exploded. The others that have been AKed were not as > powerful. > > If we remember that in real wizardry, which JKR has undoubtedly > researched, the wizard has his own developed power and the ability > to harness the power of the universe. So there would be a > tremendous amount of power within DD. Also I think that DD even > weak, perhaps dying of poison, without a wand could have defended > himself even then. It would have been a simple thing for him, > powerful as he is. I think that he allowed himself to be killed. I > don't believe that anyone could have killed DD if he had not allowed > it to happen. > > Tonks_op That makes sense to me, Tonks_op. I agree with you that, even in a weakened state, DD should have been able to defend himself without a wand. Even though the poison had weakened him considerably, just a few minutes earlier he had been able to fly into Hogwarts on a broom, and to remove the spells protecting unauthorized entrance as he flew. The description of DD's death now looks a bit different in light of the recent JKR interview: ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die? JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory? MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory. This makes me wonder--did Snape's use of the AK really come as a surprise to DD? Was the poison so potent that at this point DD actually couldn't resist the AK? If Snape did have the requisite level of hatred for DD to allow him to perform the AK properly, perhaps it was indeed DD's inner reserves of power that caused him not to die instantly but to be blasted off the tower and subsequently to die from the fall. Merrylinks From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 04:13:38 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:13:38 -0000 Subject: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134037 I know how to find out who RAB is, the next time JKR gives an interview somebody should ask her what Regulus Black's middle name is. If she says "Bob" you'll know he's not RAB, if she says "Aldebaran" or if she refuses to answer you'll know Regulus is RAB. Eggplant From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:23:17 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:23:17 -0000 Subject: Why So Afraid of Death In-Reply-To: <001801c58e4d$072f1800$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134038 Witherwings wrote: > In pondering HBP, I find myself wondering why Voldemort was so afraid of dying? Even as an 11 year old, he seemed to have this fear. Just because his mother died and left him an orphan? Maybe. But it seems like there should be a more deep-seated reason why he should so fear death. Diana replies: I was thinking about this as well. Why is Voldemort so afraid of death? I think I may know the answer to this one. To Voldemort, death is a human weakness, meant only for muggles and the weak- willed, weak-minded and the unworthy. Only weak, worthless, un- special people ever die in Voldemort's mind. He has a very high opinion of himself and regards himself as the most powerful, most fabulous wizard who ever lived, so if he were to die, then he'd be just like everyone else. Well, Voldemort can't have that! To die is just so common in his opinion. That's why Dumbledore was so disdainful of Riddle's door needing blood to open, because it's so obvious for anyone who knows Voldemort. Voldemort regards any weakness or injury as beneath him, he's just too *special* to ever do something so boringly mugglish like die. Don't forget that Tom Riddle despised his mother for a long time because he thought that she must have been a muggle because she succombed to death and left him all alone. When he found out that his dad was the muggle - a muggle who hated magic and abandoned his witch mother, well, he probably rappelled lower down the cliffs of insanity on which he lives. This also means that there is no one he cares for waiting for him on the other side of the veil, so, unlike Harry who would happily see his parents and Sirius again, Voldemort sees no reward in death. Diana L. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 04:37:45 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:37:45 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134039 "mandorino222" wrote: > When Snape comes into the room, > Harry tells him "they've got padfoot > where it's hidden!" What does Snape do? > He runs off and alerts the Order of > the Phoenix (INCLUDING Dumbledore) to the > death eaters' doings!!!!! I thought that too at first but when it all makes sense when you think about it. Voldemort's plan was to trick Harry to go to the ministry, but when Snape showed up Harry was caught by Umbrage so Snape figured the plan had failed, it never occurred to him that Harry would manage to escape and make it all the way to the ministry. With the plan canceled anyway it couldn't hurt to tell the Order of the Phoenix what Harry said, in fact he had to if he wanted to remain a spy. Dozens of people heard Harry talk to Snape about padfoot and sooner or later The Order would hear about it and wonder why Snape didn't tell them immediately. Snape is evil Eggplant From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:40:54 2005 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:40:54 -0000 Subject: The Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134040 RMM wrote: > Can anyone give me an idea of why it is of such importance that > Voldemort only heard part of the prophecy? > After all, if he heard all of it, would it have changed his mind about who to go after? Diana replies: It was important that he only heard part of it for a couple reasons. The first is that, as you say, Voldemort would have hesitated in attacking Harry because he would know that to do so would mark Harry as his equal. It is likely that, had he known the whole prophecy, Voldemort would have worried about even coming in contact with Harry since he'd wouldn't want to 'mark' his enemy as an equal, let alone give Harry special powers he himself doesn't have. If Voldemort hadn't acted on the prophecy for fear of making himself an equal enemy, then the prophecy might never have come true. Dumbledore did tell Harry that not every prophecy in the DoM comes true. The second reason is that if Voldemort had still tried to attack Harry and gave Harry his scar and his powers despite knowing the risks of doing so, Voldemort would also know that Harry, according to the prophecy, is the only one with the power to kill him. Harry would have had a harrowing 15 years of life (if he'd survived) because Voldemort would have concentrated all his energy on killing the only person who's capable of killing him. Constant assasination attempts would have been Harry's daily life, and I guarantee you the Dursleys would not have been able to fight off DE attacks every other day during Harry's childhood. Knowing that Harry is a real threat to him, Voldemort would have been willing to pass on the task of killing Harry to a DE just because it would be less dangerous for him to do so - seeing as he couldn't touch Harry at his aunt's house anyway. Voldemort would have reasoned that it's better to let one of his DEs kill Harry than to let Harry grow up to learn magic, thereby making him more of threat. Besides, it is a truism that the less your enemy knows about you, the better off you are. Diana L. dianasdolls From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:58:29 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:58:29 -0000 Subject: What if the task Voldemort gave Draco was really a test for Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134041 vmonte: I wonder if the task that Voldemort gave Draco was in fact a test to see what Snape would do? Draco's mom assumes that Voldemort is getting back at her and her husband because of Lucuis's failure during OOTP. But what if Voldemort was really testing Snape? Maybe he wanted to see just how far Snape would go to help Draco accomplish his task. Afterall, if some of the DEs didn't trust Snape, maybe Voldemort wasn't sure either. Vivian From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:04:54 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:04:54 -0000 Subject: Evil Snape? I think not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134042 HogwartsMom wrote: > I was just DEVASTATED when Snape killed DD since I've believed he was not a bad guy since book 1. If (2) is the case, he is some kind of really brave hero. It all comes down to whether one has faith in DD's judgement or not, doesn't it? Carol responds: Or "devastated, mortified, and hollow," as Valky so beautifully expresses it. I came here expecting the Snapehaters to be gloating and the "Snape apologists" to have given up in despair. I was as dazed as Harry, only my devastation was for Snape, whom I, too, have believed from Book 1 to be on the side of good. Has all the evidence we've been given of his courage and his loyalty to Dumbledore despite his background and inclinations all for nothing? It was JKR, not Snape, that I was angry with--to create a mysterious and seemingly complex character who turns out to be nothing but a Death Eater? Harry and Ron right all along, and Dumbledore and Hermione wrong? No redemption, no moral conflict in a seemingly "grey" character, nothing but a plot device to kill Dumbledore? A "gift of a character" and she's thrown him away? Well, I'm not going to spin any elaborate theories about his redemption, high as my hopes were that he would somehow escape from that d****d Unbreakable Vow, that it would be Draco who did the evil deed without Snape's help. At least JKR has said in an interview that Snape isn't a vampire, and at least she showed clearly through his potions notes and his invented spells that he's extremely clever, if not a genius--but then, so was Tom Riddle. And if Snape really is a villain as HBP seems to indicate, at least he has a lot more spine, intelligence, and determination than any of other the Death Eaters. Maybe his real purpose (as a literary creation) is to give Harry an enemy worth fighting, one who can teach him, through the experience of fighting him, what he'll need to know in order to fight Voldemort. But Snape is right that Harry should not use Unforgiveable Curses. They are altogether evil, the weapons of the Dark side. Neither should Snape, and now that he's used one (he may have used others, but that's speculation; this one is beyond a doubt), I see no hope for him, no future except inescapable moral corruption and a painful, humiliating death. In fact, given his treatment of Wormtail, this is what I foresee: Wormtail gets revenge on Snape and fulfills his life debt by saving Harry from Snape, killing him not with an avada kedavra but with his own spell, Sectum Sempra. If it must be done, nmch better that Wormtail do it than Harry. It's not what I want but it's what I foresee for the dark young man who didn't like his questioner. Carol, still "devastated, mortified, and hollow" but determined to read Book 7 in hopes that JKR's view of Snape isn't quite as simplistic and unimaginative as it appears from HBP From vlngrrl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:18:51 2005 From: vlngrrl at yahoo.com (vlngrrl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:18:51 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: <8.6ccaea1b.3011b041@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134043 Melissa wrote: Yes the current 5th years did take their OWLS. Melissa later quoted: The White Tomb "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The beautiful weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if Durnbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of the year, Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted ..." vlngrrl: The wording, I think, is too unclear to draw a definate conclusion. Harry was imagining what things would have been like at this time if Dumbledore had not died...Ginny's examinations WOULD have been finished, the pressure of homework (and exams) WOULD have been lifted. This gives no indication that these things occured anyway, even in light of Dumbledore's death. It's possible that exams would have taken place, but it is also possible that they were cancelled after Dumbledore's death. Remember...the heads of houses were discussing whether or not the students should stay for Dumbledore's funeral...and it was decided that they should. I, personally, cannot see the teachers carrying on with classes if their only reason for letting the students stay in the first place was the funeral...not end of term activities. vlngrrl From rklarreich at aol.com Fri Jul 22 03:45:20 2005 From: rklarreich at aol.com (rklarreich at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:45:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape can't be Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134044 One other point that just occurred to me, that seems to support the fact that Snape is still on the good side: in Chapter 2, Snape says of Draco's task that "He [Voldemort] intends me to do it in the end, I think." If that is the case, then two things follow: - The Unbreakable Vow isn't a complication for Snape, because it only binds him to do something he would have had to do anyway. If Malfoy tries and fails, Voldemort will next command Snape to do it, and he will have to do so or break cover. - If Snape already expects that he will have to do it in the end, then as of the scene in Spinner's End, he will already have had a chance to discuss the whole thing with Dumbledore and establish a plan. I was quite convinced, while reading this chapter, that Snape was completely in control from start to finish. He's that kind of person. He already had a plan and was manipulating the scene to tie into that plan. On another issue, whatever the real reason is for Dumbledore's trust in Snape, I'm confident that it does not involve an Unbreakable Vow between the two of them. I don't think Dumbledore operates that way. UVs stifle choice. Roberta From prep0strus at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 03:45:54 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (Adam Corbett) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:45:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione & Ron... meh Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134045 I'm sure that the Hermione/Ron relationship has been discussed to death over the past years, but I was just hoping for a little more from it in this book. Sure, she's been hinting at it for ages, but I want to see a little bit more reason for them to be in a relationship. Yeah, each of them gets jealous when someone else enters the picture, but where does the attraction come from? Neither one even seems to respect the other. Hermione never laughs at Ron's jokes, has little confidence in him as a Quidditch player, thinks he's a slacker, seems to hold his intellect in low esteem, and they only seem to really bond when they need to come together to support Harry. Meanwhile, Ron finds Hermione annoying, doesn't enjoy studying with her, thinks she acts superior and too 'proper'. He, also, doesn't seem to actually want to spend time together. I've pulled for them, because it's obviously what JK had planned, and I think it's neat for his two opposite friends to come together... but I was really hoping to actually see a reason for them to want to be with each other. Some connection, and not simply more meaningful jealousy. Speaking of things I was hoping to see... I wanted Ron to come into his own. We haven't seen Ron do anything really useful since his chess match in Sorceror's Stone. Next book has to be all about Harry and Saving the World, so I kind've hoped 6 would give Ron something to hang his hat on, rather than the somewhat reluctant sidekick. Instead, we get a book where even Hermione serves little purpose. And Ron, finally getting a LITTLE attention for quidditch (still 2nd banana to Harry) is totally overshadowed by his younger sister who is more talented, personable, and attractive. Poor, maligned Ron - he's funny, he's loyal... he deserves a chance to shine on his own. I liked HBP a lot - it was funny, and parts were intense, and it was a great read... I think I was hoping for a little more in some areas, though. ~Prep0strus From nero at alumni.vanderbilt.edu Fri Jul 22 04:02:20 2005 From: nero at alumni.vanderbilt.edu (sssj30) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:02:20 -0000 Subject: Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134046 Hi, This is my first post so I hope I am getting evey thing right. I haven't seen anything about this and I have tried to read all the post or scan as many as I can manage. I was wondering what new light HBP sheds on the use of the Patronus and relationships. Specifically if the new form of Tonks patronus is a werewolf which indicates how she feels about Lupin. What do the different Patroni that we see in the DA sections of book 5 tell us about the relationships of the other characters. Just curious to see if anyone else had thought about this and what they thought it might mean. SSSJ From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:15:08 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:15:08 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134047 Alla: "And he slashed at the air: Harry felt a white - hot, whiplike something hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes and for a moment all the breath seemed to have gone from his body, then he heard a rush of wings above him and something enormous obscured the stars." - HBP, p.604. Schumar: I took that "White, Hot, Whiplike Something" to be Buckbeaks wing, not a curse. I don't know exactly why... To me, it seemed that the only hex Snape sent toward Harry was to knock out his wand. No one knew exactly that the prophecy implied that Voldemort himself had to kill Harry -- or wouldn't have Snape kidnapped Harry or something to get him to Voldemort? I think within the gloating that Snape was also trying to warn Harry... or maybe even see if he could remember back about legilimency and know that Dumbledore was instructing Snape to kill him. Dumbledore obviously knew what was coming because a) he kept asking for Snape and b) Dumbledore himself stunned Harry to prevent him from interfering with what Must occur. Anyone else agree? From ccampboyle at comcast.net Fri Jul 22 04:40:18 2005 From: ccampboyle at comcast.net (ccampboyle) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:40:18 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134048 Alla wrote: I mean you can argue that prior to that Snape saved him from Crucio, or you can argue that he simply was following the Orders from his Lord Thingy. You can argue that he was giving Harry tips how to fight OR you can argue that he was simply gloating and in the great tradition of such stories was giving Harry tips unwillingly. But if you follow Snape as ESE intepretation, one can argue that when Harry called him a Coward, Snape could not keep his heart desires quiet anymore and finally attacked Harry. Who knows which spells Harry would have to endure from Snape if Buckbeak would not show up. Cathy: Oh, I grant the last attack. But up until that point, he had shown remarkable restraint. I think he just lost it, after the coward remarks, in the same way that Harry has lost it on a number of occasions with Draco in the past. I'm not convinced that makes him ESE. And particularly if, as I said, his dislike for Harry is genuine. Snape could hate LV, and still dislike Harry intensely, particularly if he feels, had Harry not been around, Lily need not have died. I think Snape simply sees Harry as a means to destroy LV, and a rather distasteful one, from his perspective. Cathy From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 04:51:01 2005 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:51:01 -0000 Subject: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RainItRaineth.11326399 at b... wrote: > So, if we assume that RAB is Regulus Black, the initials > will have to change when the note is translated, right? I'd assume > the JKR would tell the translators who RAB is so that the three > initials would be correct. > For example, look how much the name Sirius Black differs. It's an interesting theory. I have a copy of Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen (German) so I checked out chapter 1 to see what Sirius Black is called in German. Alas, page 20 translates Sirius Black as . . . "Sirius Black." -Ellen From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:41:50 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:41:50 -0000 Subject: Missing characters and Portrait!DD (was: Why I am 98.6% certain that...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134050 > SSSusan: > I think, whether in the first chapter or not, there will have to > be. *IF* Harry does not talk to portrait!DD, how is he going to > figure out that Snape killed DD on DD's **orders** [if, in fact, I'm > right about that ;-)]? And if Harry DOESN'T hear that from DD, I > can't imagine he would ever discover that information on his own nor > believe it if anyone else (least of all Snape himself!) tried to > explain it to him. > > I mean, does anyone doubt at this moment, that the next time Harry > encounters Snape, he isn't going to try to curse him, perhaps even > take him out? I can't imagine him LISTENING to Snape... nor, > really, Snape even trying very hard to explain to Harry, given their > history, and given how Snape reacted to Harry at the end with > that "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!" thing. > > No, if Harry's going to figure out Snape's still "okay," (as okay as > a major prick can be, that is), then I think it's going to have to > come from a talk w/ portrait!DD. Carol responds: Hi, SSS. I half-expected you to be Siriusly "Lupy" Susan and am glad to see that I'm wrong. And you're certainly right that *if* Snape was committing murder (and an Unforgiveable Curse to boot) on Dumbledore's orders, Harry will have to talk to the portrait to find it out. (Unless the protrait tells McGonagall and she tells the other Order members.) But I got the distinct impression that Harry (and Ron and Hermione) won't be at Hogwarts in Book 7 even if it still exists. They'll be out searching for Horcruxes. No quidditch, no prefect duties, no Head Girl for Hermione (I never had any Head Boy hopes for Harry)--and very little contact with any Order members who are still teaching. (We may well see more of Lupin if Harry's *not* in school.) I really hope you're right, both for Snape's sake and for my opinion of JKR's sophistication as a writer, but Harry did say he won't be back and RH said they'd go with him. Maybe she'll slither out of that one somehow. Carol From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 22 05:45:15 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:45:15 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:_I=92m_Still_Here?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134051 I'm Still Here To the tune of the same name from Sondheim's Follies Here an excerpt at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000FDK4/002-0004733- 8922441?v=glance&s=music&n=507846&vi=samples#disc_1 Dedicated to Gail Bohacek HARRY: Magic and tragic I've seen them both and it's clear I'm still here. "Potter Stinks" badges, Or else they stand up and cheer But I'm here. I've seen folks mutter, Point and stare Slept in a cupboard 'Neath the stairs Had Inferi interfere, But I'm here. I've Battled Dark Arts Got hit by Voldy's AK But I'm here I've dealt with Lockhart Did Wagga-Wolf in role play But I'm here. Faced off `gainst Umbridge And her quill Who bore me some smidge Of ill will Swam through the waters with magic gills Free and clear I rescued three of my peers And I'm here. Voldy's horcruxes Myrtle in the prefect's tub And I'm here Skiving snackboxes Got dragged into the Slug Club And I'm here. I got through Peter, DADA Profs, Slytherin Beaters, Daily Proph- Et's Rita Skeeter's Death Eater Quib premiere I lived through Cornelius Fudge And I'm here. I've gotten through Draco and ol' Lucius Malfoy, The purest of the pureblood When you've seen through Draco and ol' Lucius Malfoy, Ev'rything pureblood is mud. Learned to do Lumos. Got past all of Cho Chang's fuss And I'm here. Rode Min'stry limos, Sometimes flagged down the Knight Bus And I'm here Set on a broom, I Loved to soar Tied to a tomb by Voldemort Tore up the office of Dumbledore With a jeer Still, he's the man I revere So I'm here. Black's with me one day. Next day he goes through the Veil But I'm here. Twins gave me one way To leave the school without fail But I'm here. Dennis' brother Hagrid's skrewts Tom Riddle's mother Fluffy's flute Near got cashiered in the hall Of the seers Just barely missed `mentor's kiss. And I'm here. I've gotten through "Hey, Potter, what's a bezoar? Kid, you have to call me `sir'." Or, later on , "Potter, I just murdered D'dore! None of your libelous slur!" Bludgers and Snitches, Been hit and caught `em, it's clear I'm still here. Wizards and witches Bertie's and prime butterbeer, But I'm here. I've got some allies Herm, Ron, Gin True love and good guys Might just win I got through all my Sixth year And I'm here. Tom knows, at least I was there, And I'm here! Look who's here! I'm still here! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From CariadMel at aol.com Fri Jul 22 05:18:09 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (Annette) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:18:09 -0000 Subject: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134052 > . > > This makes me wonder--did Snape's use of the AK really come as a > surprise to DD? Was the poison so potent that at this point DD > actually couldn't resist the AK? If Snape did have the requisite > level of hatred for DD to allow him to perform the AK properly, > perhaps it was indeed DD's inner reserves of power that caused him > not to die instantly but to be blasted off the tower and subsequently > to die from the fall. > > Merrylinks *********** How true Merrylinks! I wondered if Snape had the necessary hatred in him to perform the AK on DD too. I believe and trust that Sev. is a good man, not kindly but at his core he is working for the good. I don't think he wanted to kill DD, he just knew he was expected to carry out his duty. The AK curse was used but some how deflected. I don't believe DD would want SS's soul ripped apart, so I consider that DD died as a result of the poison and the fall from the tower. Also, the horcrux was possibly the poison itself, not the locket, therefore DD's death would eliminate a part of LV. So many imponderables ! Annette From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 05:47:34 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:47:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Dumbledore=92s_Assisted_Suicide_Theory?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134053 > If Snape were really ESE, I think he would have caused Harry serious > pain before escaping. > I hope that DD left some kind of evidence (pensieve?) of the reason > he trusts Snape. I don't know if Harry will ever stop hating Snape, > but I think the other members of the Order should know which side > Snape is on. He did leave some evidence whose side Snape really is on. Remember, DD talked about consulting the former Headmasters at Hogwarts, and now DD's sitting up there comfortably snoring away. My current thinking is that Hogwarts will become the new OotP base, because of DD and the many protections already there, allowing any student (atleast the DA members) to come and learn if they want, but not make it an official school (If the governors wanted to close the school after CoS, they WILL close it now). From juli17 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 05:44:40 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:44:40 EDT Subject: Snape as coward and other responses Message-ID: <1a4.3b96e597.3011e1c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134054 Lynn wrote: Snape is a coward. Regardless of whether he ends up on the side of good or evil, he didn't have the courage to "break the cycle" of violence in which he was apparently raised and instead "got his own back" by bullying those who couldn't fight back. That's not bravery, that's cowardice. Lynn Julie now: I agree with you that Snape has at times acted cowardly, bullying those who can't fight back. But other times he has acted quite bravely, like exposing his Dark Mark and going back to LV at DD's bidding. I think labels for people sometimes get overused, as if a person can be fully represented by one label. We all have opposite characteristics within us--bravery and cowardice, kindness and cruelty, love and hate, etc, etc. At best a label comes down to the sum of one's acts, and I don't think we've seen the sum of Snape's acts yet. Witherwings: Makes sense that they would fall in together. My question is, how loyal is Snape to anybody? Seems like he's just as likely to go after Voldemort's position as soon as the opportunity presents itself, then support him. Julie now: Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never seen Snape as a person who lusts for power. RESPECT is what Snape wants. Acknowledgement of his abilities. But power, the ability to control everyone around him, I don't really see it. Snape is also a person who takes wounds personally (to say the least!), and if Voldemort in some way wounded him, then Snape would want revenge far more than power. Far more. Marisa writes: But where is it ever indicated that DD would have become aware of Snape's betrayal in those moments before his death. DD pleads, "Severus.." from the moment that Snape walks through the door. Just doesn't seem likely that Snape's appearance on the rooftop was proof to DD that Snape's loyalties lay with the DE's. Julie now: This is a very good point. Harry hears pleading in DD's voice when DD first whispers "Severus." At this point Snape has just walked up, and hasn't even looked at DD. At which point DD has no reason to suddenly think that Snape has switched sides and no reason to start pleading for his life/pleading for Snape not to throw away his own life. Hence DD can only be pleading for Snape to do something DD's *already* wants/ expects Snape to do before Snape ever starts to take any action whatsoever. I'm having a hard time reading it any other way. It could be a timing error on JKR's part, but she is pretty careful with her writing (other than things involving maths) as we saw with how carefully she worded the prophecy. Catalyna wrote: The scene where Dumbledore is killed is also off-kilter. Snape just comes in and kills him. No sneers, no insults, no nothing, is this the Snape we all know and love to hate (or hate to love)? Dumbledore was talking with Draco trying to get him to come to the light, no pleading for his life. I think he was more concerned about Draco's life and all of sudden when Snape comes in he's seemingly pleading about his life? Nope, that scene just feels real strange. Julie now: I agree again. Not only does Snape not gloat over how he's pulled the wool over DD's eyes all these years, but DD also doesn't try and dissuade Snape in any meaningful manner. If DD really thought Snape had turned back to evil, he's the type who would make every effort to turn Snape back, just as he went to great lengths to turn Draco back. But he didn't, because he didn't need to turn Snape back, as Snape remained on DD's side. Ersatz Harry wrote: (1) I found it perplexing that Snape's old Potions text would make it in the bin of old ones available for class use. Perhaps Snape liked to keep it close at hand when he was the Potions professor, but something about its getting into Harry's hands feels a bit contrived. I can't imagine that Snape would inadvertently leave it lying around. At the same time, I'm having trouble seeing how this little feat could realistically have been engineered. Was this the real reason that Slughorn was brought back? Let's see, says DD, Harry won't take Potions any more if he got too low an OWL, therefore he won't have bought the text, therefore my putting Slughorn in will get Harry to take the class without a text and will create an excuse to put Snape's old text in his hands. Feels like a bit much. Any thoughts? Julie says: DD knew he wasn't going to be around the next year and he knew one way or another (by the worst case scenario that did happen or some hoped for lesser scenario) Snape was returning to LV with all appearances of having converted to evil again. And I'm sure DD also doesn't expect Snape to survive that return. Snape will die paving the way for Harry to defeat of Voldemort. So DD gave Snape his heart's desire, the DADA position. As for the Potions book, that may have been DD's idea rather than Snape's. (I too can't see Snape inadvertently leaving it lying about). DD figured Harry could learn Potions knowledge he will need to survive his search for the Horcruxes from the Hogwarts best Potions master, Snape, via this roundabout way. And Snape went along with it, judging by the fact that he let Harry get away with keeping the potions book even after the incident with Draco. Trekkie wrote: I still have this feeling that it was Hagrid that was the witness, if we're going for the "Snape and Dumbledore made an Unbreakable Vow" theory. Hagrid is backing Snape up ALL the time almost to the point of being a total echo of Dumbledore's "I trust Severus Snape" So my guess is that Hagrid KNOWS exactely WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape. Julie says: I think it's also very interesting that we *never* saw Snape take a swipe at Hagrid, not once (as I recall). And Hagrid is a pretty good target, lovable but like a grown Neville, borderline incompetent. How could Snape resist? Yet somehow he did. It's interesting too that Hagrid didn't believe Harry when Harry said Snape had AKed Dumbledore. And at no point in the final scenes does Hagrid say anything about believing Snape to have turned back to LV, though McGonagall and others do. At least not that I recall (gotta read those scenes again) though he does shed tears over Dumbledore's death. Meanwhile, McGongall mentions once again that Dumbledore said he had an "ironclad" reason to trust Snape. It's pretty inconceivable to her that it could be because Snape felt guilty about revealing the prophecy to LV (as she expresses when Harry relates Dumbledore's supposed reason). That's not even close to an "ironclad" reason to me either. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:22:27 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:22:27 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134055 It seems to me, much like with standardized high stakes testing that students throughout the world partake in, the O.W.L. testing occurs prior to the end of the term. Think about the years that final exams were cancelled... surely those years' 5th year students had already taken their O.W.L.s in order to know what they would continue to study. At least, that's my theory. Marianne S. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Fri Jul 22 05:58:06 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:58:06 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> References: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134056 >Chinese: Xiao-tian-lang-xing Bu-lai-ke > >Danish: Sirius Zwarts >Finnish: Sirius Musta >Norwegian: Sirius Svaart >Polish: >Syriusz Czarny > >Now, I know the HBP translations don't come out for a couple >months, but does anyone have a copy of another translated HP book (where the >initials are changed for Black)? We could see how they translated Black, Bone, >and Burke, etc.; if the last names do start with different letters, we could >then have something to look for in the HBP >translations. > >Cheers, >Emily Spanish - Sirius Black German - Sirius Black French (PS/SS) - Sirius Black Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From verysherryk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:25:33 2005 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:25:33 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134057 Derek wrote: > The prophecy said (by LV's reading) that either Harry would kill him > or he would kill Harry. By making Harry a Horcrux, he would be > covering all possible bets. > Because as long as Harry is alive, then LV can't be killed either > because he has Harry as a Horcrux. But if Harry is killed, then LV > wins, because the "Chosen One" didn't slay him! verysherry: I was under the impression that LV did not hear the entire prophesy and therefore did not know that one must kill the other. IMO, I do not think that Harry is the horcrux. According to DD, he went to the house to kill Harry and use Harry's death to create the final horcrux. Also didn't DD mention previously ( I can't recall where exactly) that LV unintentionally passed his powers onto Harry? If he was indeed creating a horcrux, then wouldn't he be knowingly passing his powers on? From juli17 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 06:03:21 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:03:21 EDT Subject: Harry the Horcrux/why Lily didn't have to die Message-ID: <6b.49a4de7b.3011e629@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134058 Derek wrote: In fact, I suspect that may be why LV tried to kill Harry in the first place. When getting the other known Horcruxes associated with the Four Founders, LV slew one of that Founder's descendents in process. (He killed a Hufflepuff descendent in getting the goblet, and a Slytherin descendent in getting the locket.) If Harry (and James) are descendents of Gryffindor (as seems likely), then that pattern would still hold; LV slew a Gryffindor descendent (James) to get the Gryffindor- related Horcrux (Harry himself). Then having accomplished this, he simply decides to kill Harry right then and there! Sure, this means he'll lose the soul fragment he just invested in Harry, but that's a small price (to LV) to pay for assured victory, right? Julie says: I also think LV came to Godric's Hollow to kill James so he could get the Gryffindor related horcrux. But I also wonder if he intended to kill Harry and stash the horcrux somewhere else. Then when the AK rebounded, the horcrux went into Harry, leaving the scar on Harry's forehead (the shape of which JKR has noted is not important--apparently it's the existence of the scar itself that is important). If Harry has the final horcrux in him this also can explain why Harry felt he already knew Tom Riddle (in CoS), and why Voldemort was able to establish the mind connection. BTW, this also explains why Lily didn't have to die, doesn't it? Voldemort had to kill James for the horcrux, and then Harry because of the prophecy, but he didn't need to kill Lily. And he told her so. It seems neater to me than the idea that he spared Lily because Snape loved her, because we've really had no clue yet that Snape and Lily had any connection, other than her pity of him and his insult to her. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CariadMel at aol.com Fri Jul 22 05:28:41 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (Annette) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:28:41 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Schumar1999" wrote: > Alla: "And he slashed at the air: Harry felt a white - hot, > > Schumar: I took that "White, Hot, Whiplike Something" to be Buckbeaks wing, not a curse. I don't know exactly why... To me, it seemed that the only hex Snape sent toward Harry was to knock out his wand. No one knew exactly that the prophecy implied that Voldemort himself had to kill Harry -- or wouldn't have Snape kidnapped Harry or something to get him to Voldemort? I think within the gloating that Snape was also trying to warn Harry... or maybe even see if he could remember back about legilimency and know that Dumbledore was instructing Snape to kill him. Dumbledore obviously knew what was coming because a) he kept asking for Snape and b) Dumbledore himself stunned Harry to prevent him from interfering with what Must occur. Anyone else agree? ******** Yep, Me for one :) Also, SS wouldn't let Harry use an unforgivable curse. Blocking him and instructing him to 'remember to close your mind'. OK so it wasn't said very kindly , but he was doing him a favour , big time. Sort of like, 'when it's your turn to fight LV not me, block your mind !' Sanpe don't do pretty but he has always protected Harry and knows his destiny. Annette. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:30:04 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:30:04 -0000 Subject: Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134060 SSSJ: I was wondering what new light HBP sheds on the use of the > Patronus and relationships. Specifically if the new form of Tonks > patronus is a > werewolf which indicates how she feels about Lupin. What do the > different Patroni that we see in the DA sections of book 5 tell us > about the relationships of the other characters. Just curious to see > if anyone else had thought about this and what they thought it might > mean. Schumar: That's an excellent question. I thought Hermione's patronus was an Otter because "Dam(n) she's clever?" Ok, joking aside... I don't know if the Patroni necessarily have to do with relationships exactly but maybe it's tied to what their happiest thoughts are. Perhaps Tonks' patrons look "weak" because her thoughts were on Lupin, but she was also feeling very dejected and sad about him. Though, Harry is obviously sad about not having his parents in his life, and his Stag patronus is quite strong. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 05:49:31 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:49:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione & Ron... meh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adam Corbett" wrote: > I'm sure that the Hermione/Ron relationship has been discussed to > death over the past years, but I was just hoping for a little more > from it in this book. Sure, she's been hinting at it for ages, but I > want to see a little bit more reason for them to be in a relationship. a chance to shine on his own. > > I liked HBP a lot - it was funny, and parts were intense, and it was a great read... I think I was hoping for a little more in some areas, > though. > > ~Prep0strus I hear ya. Remember the Mirror of Erised when Ron looked into it? I think that is Ron's destination. He'll be the one to become a professional Quidditch player. As for the attraction...I said it before, but think it fits in nicely here, too. Hermione receives emotional fulfillment from Ron in that he may harrass her about her intelligence, but has also made two or three comments (that come to mind) about how grateful and in awe he is about it, which Hermione needs to hear and believe about herself. She receives a sense of purpose in tending to (what I call) Ron's deficiencies and reminds me very much of Molly. In fact, there were a couple times that Hermione shadowed Molly's behavior towards Ron. For Hermione, this is a comfortable relationship where she feels needed, and even desired (as Ron does show feelings for her through his jealous displays). Also, Hermione told Harry in Book one that she admired friendship/loyalty most (over intelligence), and Ron has that in spades, which I am sure Hermione treasures. She is a perfectionist and can be hard on herself, but Ron will always be there to tell her how she's the smartest person he knows and that it's not as bad as she thinks it is. Ron likes Hermione because she makes his life easier. He makes me think of the stereotypical athlete who does his performance and then sits back and enjoys what comes his way as a result. Hermione may remind him of his mother, thereby making it a comfortable relationship for him. Obviously, Ron is a jealous type, and Hermione is not someone who will always be testing those boundries (this gives him more overall security) because she's not the best looking (which won't draw a lot of unsolicitated attention) nor the flirty type in any amount. Ron is not very responsible in a relationship (as seen in part with Lavender) and sticking with what he knows (the girl he "grew up with") is less "scary". He already knows what to expect from that relationship. Ron also admires how courageous Hermione can be (most recent example is when Hermione went into Borgin's to snoop around for answers after Draco left-but there are several throughout the books-like stealing from Snape for polyjuice potion), which we all know is not his strongest feature. In fact, that is a trait his best male companion has, too. I would love to hear other peoples perspective on this pairing, too! ~Casmir From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 06:15:47 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:15:47 -0000 Subject: What if the task Voldemort gave Draco was really a test for Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134062 Whoah, threw me for a loop there, never thought of that. So did she bring up the Unbreakable Vow on HIS orders? Coulda been testing Draco as well. Or maybe he was seeing how far Snape would go and still stay on DD's side, therefor possibly ridding himself of DD in the process? Chys, not checking the group much... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > I wonder if the task that Voldemort gave Draco was in fact a test to > see what Snape would do? > > Draco's mom assumes that Voldemort is getting back at her and her > husband because of Lucuis's failure during OOTP. But what if Voldemort > was really testing Snape? Maybe he wanted to see just how far Snape > would go to help Draco accomplish his task. Afterall, if some of the > DEs didn't trust Snape, maybe Voldemort wasn't sure either. > > Vivian From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 06:30:49 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:30:49 -0000 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! Borgin and Burkes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134063 Rowen: As for your guess that the RAB is Borgin, the problem is that he has no motivation to destroy the locket. Borgin is clearly a dark wizard, and deals with DEs every day. Why would he want to risk alienating his best clients by trying to kill LV? Also, RAB says he will soon be dead, and mister Borgin is very much alive. Chys: What about Burke? It's called 'Borgin and Burkes', right? So where is the other guy at? (Or is there another guy?) Chys, very curious about this one. (and the fact that most of the shops are like 'Flourish and Blotts', old shops but are those to be considered last names too?) From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 06:34:25 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:34:25 -0000 Subject: Does Jo say RAB is Regulus? was Re: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > I know how to find out who RAB is, the next time JKR gives an > interview somebody should ask her what Regulus Black's middle name is. If she says "Bob" you'll know he's not RAB, if she says "Aldebaran" or if she refuses to answer you'll know Regulus is RAB. Why not just check out her current interview?! MA: R.A.B. JKR: Ohhh, good. [All laugh.] JKR: No, I'm glad! Yes? MA: Can we figure out who he is, from what we know so far? [Note: JKR has adopted slightly evil look here] JKR: Do you have a theory? MA: We've come up with Regulus Black. JKR: Have you now? MA: Uh-oh. [Laughter.] JKR: Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess. MA: And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror ? JKR: [drums fingers on soda can] MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius's mirror ? JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.] Karen From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jul 22 06:33:35 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:33:35 -0000 Subject: JKR interview - editing suggestion for OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > I noticed in the MN/TLC interview with JKR she talked about OotP being > overly long but challenged anyone to say where it could be cut. > > Well, I would have to say I never understood why there was an entire > chapter devoted to Hagrid and Madam Maxime's journey to the giants. > IMO that was the most boring (actual only boring) chapter of all HP > books to date. > > Maybe it will come into play in book seven and that's why its there. > > Thoughts? My thought is...it was totally boring for Harry to be flying from the Dursley's house under the direction of Mad Eye Moody...how many changes of direction, descriptions of how Harry is freezing....etc.... that part surely could have be pared down... Susan From maliksthong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 06:36:46 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:36:46 -0000 Subject: Lily and potions or charms skills? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134066 I'm sorry but there are too many messags to wade through to see if anyone has brought this up- but I want to know what the significance is of Lily being good at potions? Slughorn mentioned that. It seems like the only thing we really learn about her in HBP, so I have to ask about it. I always thought that she was good at charms and suddenly it's potions. Was that a fannon thing, or was it truly canon? I agree with someone (Amy, was it?) who mentioned that Harry sees the world through his mother's eyes and has that type of personality, while he kind of walks the walk that his father did- for a main character, it's a good balance. With the themes of love and such, that's something I'd bet on. I can't figure her out though. Chys From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 06:50:12 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:50:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's created curses (Was: Re: HBP thoughts) In-Reply-To: <20050719234319.16901.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134067 Rebecca Stephens: > Of course not. But I don't think you can "figure out" > a nonverbal spell someone else made up. How would you > know what the word that needed to be thought was? Tone: I highly doubt that MWPP just 'figured out' that they should sneak into the Sly common room to look into Snape's potion's book. It's morel likely Snape used it or told it to someone, whoever they may be, and it spread like gossip always does around the entire campus. Maybe Snape added the nonverbal note later, once he saw someone else do it, to slow the damage. ALSO, unless Lupin intended to lie to Harry, he claimed the spell had been around for forever. Lupin trusts Harry and vice versa, why would he lie here? From doliesl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 07:22:21 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and potions or charms skills? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722072221.94720.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134068 --- Chys Lattes wrote: > I always thought that she was good at charms and suddenly it's > potions. Was that a fannon thing, or was it truly canon? It was suggested by her wand, that was good for charm. And in pensieve scene when the MWPP recoiled when Lily drew her wand against James. More on Potions and charms. Did anyone notice in Ch.16, when Harry discussed Snape with others, the background music were two of Celestina's cheesy love songs "A Cauldron Full of Hot Strong Love" and "You Charmed the Heart Right Out of Me." > I agree with someone (Amy, was it?) who mentioned that Harry sees the > world through his mother's eyes and has that type of personality, > while he kind of walks the walk that his father did- for a main > character, it's a good balance. With the themes of love and such, > that's something I'd bet on. Actually, no. Remember what cover up those Lily's green eyes of Harry? The glasses! Just like James's. Harry actually sees the world through his father's glasses, which JKR refered as Harry's 'weakness" (many years ago when Italian version's cover didn't have Harry with glasses on, JKR specified that). They could be metaphor of Harry's biased or prejudice that colored his judgement. So maybe the BIG thing about Lily's eyes was simply that, sometimes in book 7 it will reveal the 'Lily can see the good in people when others/the person himself can't see' thing. And finally Harry, dropping or seeing through those tinted glasses, he can clearly see the truth and good in certain people (oh my WHO would that be...) D. From chrisworm at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 07:55:24 2005 From: chrisworm at hotmail.com (chris_wormie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:55:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore -- portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134069 > --- Merrylinks wrote: > > On the basis of the new Dumbledore portrait in the > > headmistress's office and because of Fawkes's behavior, I'm > > sure that Dumbledore is really dead. > Matt wrote > Not disputing that Dumbledore's dead, but does a former headmaster > have to be dead to turn up on a portrait in the office? I had thought > they were portraits of all the former headmasters (dead or alive). Just thinking - Dumbledore has been both suspended (CoS) and sacked (OotP). While I can't argue that DD was a *former* headmaster i Cos, he definately, for all intents and purposes, was *former* in OotP - however, his portrait did not appear (as far as we know) Christine - who popped in to say hello after having been a regulurker for quite a while.. From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 08:13:35 2005 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:13:35 -0000 Subject: Why Dumbledore is so trusting Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134070 Hi, I've come up with an idea about why Dumbledore tends to trust people so much. I think it is because of his philosophy: He is a daoist. Just consider the following words from the "Dao de jing", the most important daoist book: "He is good to those who are good; He is also good to those who are not good; For love is goodness. He trusts those who are trustworthy; He also trusts those who are not trustworthy; For love is trust." I bet that daoism is the backbone of Dumbledore's attitude towards life! What do you think? Florentine (Refusing to talk about Dumbledore in past tense, I know... Just can't get used to it, even though I believe he is really dead.) From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 08:21:56 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:21:56 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134071 'Voldemort put a piece of himself in me?' said Harry thunderstruck. 'It certainly seems so'. COS p245 (UK edition) Bearing in mind that JKR would have known all about Horcruxes at this point, I find this a VERY strong hint that Harry is definitely a Horcrux. The other thing that struck me about book 6 is the number of times we saw the comment - neither can live, while the other survives. There are two interpretations here; 1) Neither can freely live until the other is destroyed i.e. Harry has a bit of Voldemort inside him, whilst Harry's threat hangs over Voldemort. 2) If you focus on the NEITHER can live part, it means that if one dies, then they both die. Harry the Horcrux!! It seems that what is most important to JKR is that we are completely shocked and surprised in her books. And she usualy manages it. What would be more shocking than Harry dying in book 7. It is something I'm sure we all worry about, but (be very honest here) do any of us truly believe that Harry won't survive book 7. My only hope is that Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in book 4, is because Voldemort has freed Harry from being a Horcrux by using his blood to reincarnate! Brothergib From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 08:23:06 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:23:06 -0000 Subject: Bill - the curse breaker! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134072 In book 6, when they are at the Burrow, Bill is referred to as a curse breaker! Guess we know who will be helping Harry with the Horcruxes then!! From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 09:00:19 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:00:19 -0000 Subject: Wizard Population Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134073 3000 wizards living in Britain? Is JKR screwing up her maths again? Because that doesn't sound right. Not right at all. A Wizarding school with the student population of 600 would amount to roughly 20 000 wizards and witches, not including the magical beings and so on, living in Britain. It's just my rough guess. And I always thought there was between 40-50 000 wizard/witches and beings in Britain, if there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts. One minute she says 1000 students, the next 600. I'm very confused. TWV From leslie41 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 06:54:50 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:54:50 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's Tarot Tarot Reading Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134074 I'm really loving all this discussion of the tarot in HBP--but I haven't seen Trelawney's "reading" of Harry's situation discussed yet. When Harry is hiding from Trelawney in book 10, just after he's discovered the HPB's potions book, she walks past him, muttering to herself. But it's not just muttering. She's doing a reading. She pulls out the two of spades (conflict), seven of spades (ill omen), ten of spades (violence), and knave of spades?"A dark young man, possibly troubled, who dislikes the questioner." Trelawney is doing, in fact, a tarot card reading. Spades are the lesser arcana's version of swords, and the brief interpretations that Trelawney gives as she walks support this. Obviously, when she started out she was not doing a reading for Harry, but his proximity most definitely lurches the cards towards his fate and his future. This reading provides clues as to Harry's future in this book, and perhaps in the next one. As Trelawney made the prophecy about Harry before, we definitely should listen to her now if we want clues to what happens next. Her explication of the cards as she walks is extremely brief, and needs fleshing out for it to make more sense, which is what I'd like to do. Remember first that swords symbolize the life of the mind, and logic, and mental acuity. They are the least "beneficent" suit. The cards themselves are fixed, but I'd encourage anyone to do their own interpretations of them and see if they can find even more clues. All of my quotes are taken from Frater LUC's Astrology and Tarot Corner, but there are plenty of other book/internet sources out there. http://www.hawkman.org/tarot/tarot/ Two of Swords: I would suggest that this is probably the card that represents Harry and his situation. Remember that at this point in the narrative Harry has just discovered the HBP's potions book, and is wondering who the HBP is. The entire reading is a direct outcome of that specific situation in Harry's life. http://www.hawkman.org/tarot/tarot/card_detail.cfm?cardid=R "The woman is blindfolded, showing that she is confused about her situation. She cannot see the problem or the solution clearly. The swords are perfectly balanced, showing a balanced and stable mind. The water signifies emotions, and the rocks show tension. One of the divinatory meanings of this card is tension in a relationship, needing a cool head to solve the problem. A need to look at both sides of the situation. The waxing moon shows a new beginning arising out of the solutions found for this problem. The preponderance of grey shows a need to be neutral, and to look at both sides of the situation. The balanced crossed swords signify the same thing. Crossed swords, in Native symbology, is a symbol of truce. A truce needs to be called, and the problem needs to be resolved using logic (the suit of swords deals with logic and the use of the intellect). Both sides of the situation need to be addressed." The relationship, of course, is with the HBP, and in a larger sense, with Snape overall. The immediate suggestion is that Harry doesn't know who the HBP is, whether or not the book is "dangerous," etc. But in a larger sense, since Snape is the HBP (which the cards seem to know, but Harry of course does not), there's an indication that Harry is not neutral about him, and needs to "look at both sides". This is something the text supports as well, because in no other book do so many people around him defend Snape, and make Harry try to see that his opinion may be skewed. Seven of swords: http://www.hawkman.org/tarot/tarot/card_detail.cfm?cardid=W The seven of swords forecasts to the situation with Snape, and the man on the card can only be interpreted as Snape. The man depicted in the seven of swords is a thief, who"gives the impression of having secret, solitary plans...." It's a card of "deception and betrayal." There are figures in the background depicted on the card that see what he is doing, and one of them is holding a sword (Harry?). Interestingly enough as well, "this card sometimes represents the lone-wolf style - the desire to run lone and free the lone-wolf hero always acts totally on his own. He discovers, investigates and solves every problem using only his own wits and resources. He's successful because he ignores the fumbling efforts of ordinary people." This card also has associations with cunning, trickery, and deceit. Is this a card that condemns Snape? Yes and no. Arthur Edward Waite, probably the most famous and consulted source on the meaning of the tarot, interprets the card thusly: "Design, attempt, wish, hope, confidence; also quarrelling, a plan that may fail, annoyance. The design is uncertain in its import, because the significations are widely at variance with each other." The "design" may indeed be the plan to make Snape seem a traitor; that in fact may be the "wish," in fact, the only "hope" for the situation. Ten of Swords: http://www.hawkman.org/tarot/tarot/card_detail.cfm?cardid=` Clearly, this forecasts Dumbledore's death at the hands of Snape. "The Ten of Swords depicts one of the most painful and sad images in the entire Tarot deck. A man lies face down with ten long swords embedded in his back. The sky above is pitch black and the general feeling is one of sadness, loss, and misfortune." Well, of course. But . "However, despite these ominous images, there are positive aspects to this card. The sea before which the body lies is glassy and calm, and the sunrise is appearing in the distance beyond the mountains. The fire of the sun is burning the clouds of darkness away as it rises and the darkness will soon be dispelled." !!!!!!!!! Indeed! This is very much a "darkness before the dawn" type of card. Now, whether it implies resurrection of Dumbledore, or just forecasts to the overthrow of Voldemort, that's the question. Knave of Spades: The last card is the "knave of spades," the jack, which corresponds to the page in the tarot deck. So the last card is the Page of Swords. It is this card we should look to, one would suppose, to give us clues for the next book. Perhaps this is the "outcome" card. http://www.hawkman.org/tarot/tarot/card_detail.cfm?cardid=a The knave of spades is of course the HBP, Snape. Here's a couple of trenchant quotes: "The Page of Swords has the ability to find out the truth regarding all matters. He has both mental and physical agility." "In readings, the Page of Swords offers gestures of challenge. He suggests that an opportunity for growth may come your way in the guise of a problem or dilemma. Such gestures will not be your favorites. In fact, you will probably want to say `Thanks...but no thanks'." "The Page of Swords asks you to embrace a difficult situation and meet its challenge. You could think of these as trials designed to test your mettle. If you accept and prevail, you will become stronger and more resilient." This site tends to emphasize the more positive, youthful aspects of the page, which isn't necessarily wrong since Harry is contemplating the HBP, not Snape as he knows him. But what is also associated with the page as well is vigilance and spying, which, it is also stressed, can be used either for evil or for good. Waite's interpretation of the page of swords: "Authority, overseeing, secret service, vigilance, spying, examination, and the qualities thereto belonging." It is my view that these readings are relatively neutral in terms of their judgement on the character. The negative aspects are balanced out by the positive. We are also reminded by this interpretation of how clever Snape is, how he is master of "concealment and revelation." These are readings that are completely ambiguous as to Snape's loyalties. He's a brilliant master of deception. I will admit that I'm a Snape fan, and I have no problem with him being an utter bastard, but I do have a problem with him being irredeemably evil, and I'm hoping that Rowling is building towards a final alignment of his character that preserves this. I have other reasons for thinking Rowling is doing this, but not even a week after the book's release, pretty much everyone's cited them already!!! :^) "leslie41" From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 09:18:55 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:18:55 -0400 Subject: An AK Puzzle References: <1122004727.1645.69168.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004c01c58e9e$62dbb4f0$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134075 Valky saod: "Yep. It also explains something I just not long ago today had pointed out to me, that there was also some apparent evidence of the two legilimens communicating silently with each other before it happened. "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face." I need not point out again the hatred and revulsion were what Harry felt too.. yada yada.. just assume I did to back my theory of the legilimensing conversation between Snape and Dumbledore.. Dumbledore speaks aloud: Severus.. Dumbledore offers thoughts: You have to do it here.. it doesn't matter we are running out of time.. make it look right.. Snape hates himself, is repulsed by what he has to do but... Dumbledore speaks: Severus, Please... Snape didn't do the Avada Kedavra. He Occlumensed everyone in the room, spoke the words "Avada Kedavra" and voicelessly cast a blasting spell coupled with a hover charm for effect.. DE's are impressed, It's over, Snape leaves." You devil, Valky. Did DD call Snape a coward in this Occlumens/Legilimens conversation? Is that why Snape is so incensed when HP calls him a coward later on? CathyD aka DuffyPoo (thanks SSS) From hermystheories at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 07:36:48 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:36:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! Borgin and Burkes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134076 > Chys: > > What about Burke? It's called 'Borgin and Burkes', right? So where is > the other guy at? > > (Or is there another guy?) Burke's first name is Caractacus. Borgin is never given a first name. That's why if it's one of the two, it's Borgin. In the making of the CoS movie, JKR wouldn't let them cut the Knockturn Alley scene due to future importance. I suppose you could argue it was just a good introduction for seeing more of it in book/movie 6, but I think it was actually an introduction to a future important character. In the CoS scene in the book, you see Borgin being polite and respectful to the Malfoys while they are in the store, but making snide remarks once they leave. --Mrs. HS -- Gmail is fantastic for sorting through the 80-bajillion emails per day I get from HPforGrownUps. Email me privately if you'd like an invite. From phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 09:21:53 2005 From: phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk (Kate Harding) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:21:53 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: <42DD7C6B.8050008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134077 > Julie H/urghiggi wrote: > "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... after a fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. > What if by drinking the potion and then the water the inferi were > floating in he was dead? Sounds far fetched now that I've written it down.... No, I've been thinking along the same lines! When I reread the tower top scene, those were the words that leapt out at me. He had a drink and he came back - the implication seems to be that he 'came back' in a more than ordinary sense, but not properly. So what are the possibilities? The drink killed him and he 'came back' to the living world only partially. The drink had some other effect from which he recovered only partially. But is he talking about the green drink, or the drink of water? If the drink of water, then it may be that the water the inferi float in is what actually sustains them as inferi. Perhaps the potion killed him and the water brought his soul, or his ghost, back to his body as a kind of inferi. It's even conceivable that all the inferi in the lake were created in this way. Another point - when they returned from the trip to the cave, Dumbledore was desperate to see Snape - it was his first thought, he insisted Harry fetch Snape, even above Madam Pomphrey. Why? I imagine because Snape would be the only person who could fix whatever the green potion (/water) had done to him. Of course, if he thought it was fixable, then it probably wasnt death. But this was *before* he knew about the Dark Mark, so I would think it was unlikely to be anything to do with Malfoy or Snape's current mission. Anyway. If Dumbledore did in some sense die at the cave, then does that mean that Avada Kedavra wouldn't have the usual effect on him? Don't get me wrong, I'm not clinging to any misguided hope that he's miraculously going to reappear all better. But that little turn of phrase must mean something, it's so often the little things, with Jo, and the things that go partially unsaid. Forgive my slghtly chaotic babble, but I was excited to see someone else had had a similar thought. Sadly, I have no speculation on what the cryptic 'Yes and no' means. psyche From nickel313 at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 22 08:20:14 2005 From: nickel313 at yahoo.com.au (nickel313) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:20:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore -- portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134078 > > --- Merrylinks wrote: > > On the basis of the new Dumbledore portrait in the > > headmistress's office and because of Fawkes's behavior, I'm > > sure that Dumbledore is really dead. > Then Matt wrote: > Not disputing that Dumbledore's dead, but does a former headmaster > have to be dead to turn up on a portrait in the office? I had thought > they were portraits of all the former headmasters (dead or alive). > > -- Matt Now me (Nickel): "And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts ... " (HBP, p584 Australian / UK edition) So, I guess that means that 'yes' the headmaster/headmistress must be dead before their portrait is displayed. -- Nickel, who is making her first ever post here after a long time lurking and hopes she has done it properly From lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 22 08:50:28 2005 From: lucinda428 at yahoo.com.au (lucinda428) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:50:28 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134079 Cathcart wrote: > 4. The RAB note is a red herring. LV took the locket and > left the replacement as a trap. Unlikely. The real locket is surely the "heavy locket" at 12 Grimmauld Place. Lucinda428 From CariadMel at aol.com Fri Jul 22 08:52:55 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (Annette) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:52:55 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134080 Brothergib: > My only hope is that Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in book 4, > is because Voldemort has freed Harry from being a Horcrux by > using his blood to reincarnate! ****** This would certainly give DD reason to feel this sense of triumph, if Harry had indeed been a Horcrux. However,LV did not wish to place his soul intentionally inside Harry, Horcruxing (verb?) is an act which involves forethought.But I agree some thing happened to raise hope in DD's heart at that time. Annette. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 09:28:54 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:28:54 -0400 Subject: Fifth Years/OWLS References: <1122004727.1645.69168.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006301c58e9f$c7bddbe0$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134081 Cathy wrote: > I've been wondering what will happen to the current years' fifth years (Ginny's) class.. ~Prep0strus said: "I'm also curious - what's the deal with prefect assignments? Are they only assigned every three years? Are there prefects in every class 5 and up? It doesn't seem to be that way, because I can't imagine Ginny wouldn't be prefect - if Ron can do it, Ginny sure can." Oh, I never thought of that. I've been bothered by a Wrackspurt lately and can't remember that Ginny is in 5th year...I kept thinking she was still in 4th...until the talk of studying for owls near the end of the book. Meliss9900 said: "Yes they did. Read a little further. The White Tomb Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The beautiful weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if Durnbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of the year, Ginny's examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted ... and hour by hour, he put off saying the thing that he knew he must say, doing what he knew it was right to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort." This is HP *imagining* what it would be like *had Dumbledore not died*. If DD had not died, Ginny's exams would be finished, they would have no more homework, just be sitting around waiting for the train....instead, we have, as Geoff pointed out: "'All lessons were suspended, all examinations postponed. Some students were hurried away from Hogwarts by their parents over the next couple of days - ' (HBP "The White Tomb" p.590 UK edition)" While they still have no homework, instead they're sitting around waiting for a funeral and then the train to take them all home. CathyD DuffyPoo From h.m.s at mweb.co.za Fri Jul 22 08:36:19 2005 From: h.m.s at mweb.co.za (H.M.S) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:36:19 +0200 Subject: My hope for Book 7 Message-ID: <007a01c58e9a$d3158d80$0200a8c0@Sharon> No: HPFGUIDX 134082 BlankIn the Mugglenet interview with JKR on Saturday, she confirmed that the last word in Book #7 is "SCAR" I hope that its in something like Ron & Hermione Weasley congratulating Harry & Ginny Potter on the birth of their son with "He looks just like Harry, but without the SCAR!" NOT as in: the last thing Harry ever felt was an all consuming, blinding pain in his SCAR Sharon Durban - South Africa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zwarte_kat_1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 09:19:10 2005 From: zwarte_kat_1 at yahoo.com (zwarte_kat_1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:19:10 -0000 Subject: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134083 Emily wrote: > Okay, as we know, HP is translated into many languages and > occasionally, the names do not directly translate (they start > with different letters). So, if we assume that RAB is Regulus > Black, the initials will have to change when the note is > translated, right? I'd assume the JKR would tell the translators > who RAB is so that the three initials would be correct. > That's an excellent idea. I'll be checking the Dutch translation as soon as it comes out. In Dutch, Regulus Black is translated as Regulus Zwarts. Borgin & Burkes is translated as Odius & Oorlof. "zwarte_kat_1" From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 09:29:23 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:29:23 -0000 Subject: Some logic on Snape/Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134084 Here is something that occurred to me. If you believe as some people do (not me, but that isn't important) that Dumbledore was asking Snape not to kill him when he said "Severus. . . please", I think you must also believe that Dumbledore did not know about the part of the unbreakable vow that required Snape to finish Draco's task if Draco could not. Let me explain. At the point when Snape arrived at the tower, Dumbledore knew for certain what Draco's task was. He may have known before that, but we cannot say for sure. If Dumbledore did know that Snape had vowed to complete Draco's mission, he would realize that Snape would die if he didn't kill Dumbledore. I believe that Dumbledore would sacrifice his own life for someone else, but I do not believe that he would ever, under any circumstances ask someone else to sacrifice his life to save Dumbledore. If he knew that detail of Snape's vow, that is what he would have been asking Snape to do. I think it is likely that Dumbledore knew about that part of the vow, and I will explain that in another post. But either way it is something to keep in mind when trying to work it out. I hope I was clear. It's kind of late here. snipsnapsnurr From nickel313 at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 22 09:30:46 2005 From: nickel313 at yahoo.com.au (nickel313) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:30:46 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134085 This is only my second post so I hope I am doing it correctly... Since there are so many posts on Snape, RAB and Horcruxes at the moment, I thought I would ask about something different... and this is something that has been bothering me a little... We know from OotP that Charlie is a member of the order: "'Charlie's in the Order, too,' said George, 'but he's still in Romania. Dumbledore wants as many foreign wizards brought in as possible, so Charlie's trying to make contacts on his days off.' " (p67, OotP Bloomsbury paperback edition) My question is this: Does anyone think that Charlie will be making an appearance in Book 7? If so, what will his role be? Will he be bringing in some foreign wizards that he has recruited? If he doesn't make an appearance again, what has his role in the books been? Is he just there to show that the Order is working in other countries? Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone thinks we will be seeing him again and ideas on what he has been doing in the past two books or what role he might play in Book 7. -- Nickel From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 09:45:15 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:45:15 -0000 Subject: What if the task Voldemort gave Draco was really a test for Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134086 Vivian (vmonte): > > > > I wonder if the task that Voldemort gave Draco was in fact a test to see what Snape would do? > > > > Draco's mom assumes that Voldemort is getting back at her and her husband because of Lucuis's failure during OOTP. But what if Voldemort was really testing Snape? Maybe he wanted to see just how far Snape would go to help Draco accomplish his task. Afterall, if some of the DEs didn't trust Snape, maybe Voldemort wasn't sure either. Chys: > Whoah, threw me for a loop there, never thought of that. So did she bring up the Unbreakable Vow on HIS orders? > > Coulda been testing Draco as well. > > Or maybe he was seeing how far Snape would go and still stay on DD's side, therefor possibly ridding himself of DD in the process? Dungrollin: I agree completely with Vivian. Voldy was calling all the shots. He's very well aware of the relationships between his DEs. By ordering Draco to kill DD, he is most assuredly testing Snape's loyalty. The fact that Draco will probably fail and Voldy can kill him to teach Lucius a lesson is just an added bonus, Voldy wants to be sure of Snape. So he puts a friend of his (Narcissa) in a very difficult position where she needs Snape's help, and he lets slip to Bella that he's not entirely certain of Snape's loyalty. And the dutiful creatures walk into the trap. "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." CH2, Spinners End. Snape and DD knew what Voldy was up to from the beginning, and I bet DD extracted a promise from Snape that if it came to it Snape would kill DD and save himself and Draco. He's still got tasks to do for DD in the DEs circle, you see. Dungrollin From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 09:49:46 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:49:46 -0400 Subject: What if the task Voldemort gave Draco was really a test for Snape? References: <1122012356.1770.93107.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <007201c58ea2$b248d190$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134087 vmonte said: "I wonder if the task that Voldemort gave Draco was in fact a test to see what Snape would do? Draco's mom assumes that Voldemort is getting back at her and her husband because of Lucuis's failure during OOTP. But what if Voldemort was really testing Snape? Maybe he wanted to see just how far Snape would go to help Draco accomplish his task. Afterall, if some of the DEs didn't trust Snape, maybe Voldemort wasn't sure either." "Looking down into her (Narcissa's) tear-staned face, he said slowly, 'He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy." CathyD TrentonON From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 09:54:10 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:54:10 -0400 Subject: R.A.B.? Not Regulus Black!! Borgin and Burkes? References: <1122025369.2500.24586.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008101c58ea3$4f888e50$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134088 Chys said: "What about Burke? It's called 'Borgin and Burkes', right? So where is the other guy at?" Burke's name is Caractacus Burke. No RAB initials. (HBP pg 244 Can edition) Which doesn't rule out the guy from Flourish and Blotts...but we don't know his name. ;) CathyD DuffyPoo From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 09:54:25 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:54:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 6218 References: <1122012356.1770.93107.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008201c58ea3$587679a0$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134089 Derek wrote: "In fact, I suspect that may be why LV tried to kill Harry in the first place. When getting the other known Horcruxes associated with the Four Founders, LV slew one of that Founder's descendents in process. (He killed a Hufflepuff descendent in getting the goblet, and a Slytherin descendent in getting the locket.) If Harry (and James) are descendents of Gryffindor (as seems likely), then that pattern would still hold; LV slew a Gryffindor descendent (James) to get the Gryffindor- related Horcrux (Harry himself)." LV killed Hepzibah Smith (Hufflepuff descendent) to get the cup AND the locket. She had both in her possession at the time. He killed no one to get the family ring, just took it from a stunned/stupified Morfin Gaunt after LV killed the remaining Riddle family members. I don't believe HP is, or ever was, a Horcrux: 'The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: he would encase the torn portion - ' 'Encase? But how -? 'Ther is a *spell*, do not ask me, I don't know!' There wasn't much left of LV after the AK rebounded. Not enough to hold a wand. "Less than a spirt, less than the meanest ghost but still alive." I don't think (JMO) there was enough of LV left to perform the spell to make HP the Horcrux. This apart from the fact that, as we all know, LV cannot possess HP because of his 'power' for love. CathyD DuffyPoo From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 09:57:09 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:57:09 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore making a horcrux NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134090 Julie H wrote: > Here's my last post of the day -- maybe someone already commented on > this, I haven't read all of what's been put up here today (though a > lot of it). > Was anyone else struck by Dumbledore's weird conversation with Draco > at the top of the tower (chapter 27, page 590 in the American > edition)? > DD and Malfoy are sorting out the evening's prior events (dark mark, > etc) and Malfoy says (of his communication with Rosmerta): > "..She said you were just going for a drink, you'd be back." > > "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... after a > fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. "So you decided to spring a trap for > me?" > "We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry > up here, to see who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" > > "Well .... yes and no ...." said Dumbledore. > > Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? I > don't think DDore's "lost it" from potion drinking (he is weak, but > no evidence that he's addled, right up to the point he gets AK'd). > What does he mean that he came back "after a fashion???" Valky: Not sure if this helps but, "after a fashion" is a common saying in British sort of English. I think, it means after a pretty short amount of time. Fashion, in this context, I believe, refers to "fads" (pop fashions) and umm "hypes" short lived, very exciting things.. like the life of fashions.. I think that's what it means. Check me if I am wrong any true brits out there.. > Julie H: > And what does he mean by saying "yes and no" Valky: I think, we should take that literally. Yes to the first No to the second, it is very likely, I am sure, that the sophisticated wit that Jo has given Dumbledore is of the certain type that reads this way. Dumbledore is demonstrating that he's focussed and listening, and that he hasn't missed a thing. > (I don't have any yet personally, but there is something very > strange about the language here, a definite "more than meets the > eye" sort of thing.) Yeah there is definitely more than it seems going on up there. Valky (just wanting to mention two things from PS/SS.) 1. The Astronomy Tower is the tallest tower of Hogwarts, very very high up, and the place where the Trio took Norbert to give him to Charlie's friends. 2. I think Jo made it very clear from the very first chapter of the series, Dumbledore does not make Horcruxes.. Slug says it's the darkest of dark magic, and in PS/SS Chapter 1. Dumbledore admits, to Macgonagall, that there are powers he will never have, I wouldn't hesitate to assume that Dumbledore Horcruxes were ruled out there and then. From trekkie at stofanet.dk Fri Jul 22 10:13:28 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:13:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) References: <1121999553.2731757081.23589.sendItem@bloglines.com> Message-ID: <00a801c58ea6$0143e7f0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 134091 > Danish: Sirius Zwarts > Cheers, > Emily Uhm sorry, but no. He's Sirius Black in danish as well. Perhaps you're thinking of dutch? The only persons to have their names translated in danish are Gilderoy Lockhart (Glitterik Smrhr) , Professor Sprout (Spire, means sprout) and Lupin who is called Lupus. I do like the idea of using that as a way of figuring out who R A B is though. Clever! :o) ~Trekkie resident dane *GG* From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 10:14:39 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:14:39 -0400 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die!/Wizard Population References: <1122025369.2500.24586.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008701c58ea6$2bda0170$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134092 Brothergib said: "It seems that what is most important to JKR is that we are completely shocked and surprised in her books. And she usualy manages it. What would be more shocking than Harry dying in book 7. It is something I'm sure we all worry about, but (be very honest here) do any of us truly believe that Harry won't survive book 7. " Actually, I am convinced of it. I will be completely surprised if he lives. He will die to protect someone after he has finished LV. There will still be DE's in the fray (I don't envision a one-on-one between LV & HP). HP saving Draco from Lucius would be interesting - if, of course, LM ever gets out of Azkaban. Besides, it is the only way JKR won't be hounded to insanity for more HP books. --------- TWV said "And I always thought there was between 40-50 000 wizard/witches and beings in Britain, if there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts. One minute she says 1000 students, the next 600. I'm very confused." I don't know how many witches and wizards are in Britain (geez is that in the books and I've missed it after all these readings?) but there are not possibly 1000 students in the school. The math - her math - is simple. 4 houses x 7 years x 10 kids per year (5 girls/5 boys) give or take a few expulsions (Hagrid), a few failures (Montague), a few possibly leaving after 5th year (Fred & George) and a few being removed by parents (Eloise Midgeon, Patils, Zacharias Smith). Even if there were 20 kids per year (and we know there is not in HP's year, at least there are only 20 combined between Gryffindor and Slytherin, and between Gryffindor and Hufflepuff), it only comes out to 560. CathyD TrentonON From CariadMel at aol.com Fri Jul 22 10:05:23 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:05:23 EDT Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore makin... Message-ID: <1f6.e34be90.30121ee3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134093 Julie H wrote: > > Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" > > stuff? I don't think DDore's "lost it" from potion drinking > > (he is weak, but no evidence that he's addled, right up to > > the point he gets AK'd). What does he mean that he came > > back "after a fashion???" > Valky: > I think it means after a pretty short amount of time. ********* After a fashion, to me it means 'sort of'. I hadn't picked up on that phrase, well spotted. DD may be implying that he has returned from his ordeal in the cave in less than full DD capacity, ie: underpowered. The potion/poison he drank has rendered him physically weak, and he has returned but knows he's vulnerable. Annette. From jvarendonk at digitalme.com Fri Jul 22 10:13:24 2005 From: jvarendonk at digitalme.com (iiris_0) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:13:24 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore making a horcrux NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134094 Julie H wrote: > > "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... > > after a fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. > > What does he mean that he came back "after a fashion???" > Valky: > I think, it means after a pretty short amount of time. After a fashion, means: One could say Dumbledore went for a drink and came back. However not in the sense one would normally use the term. For normally one would mean he went for a drink in a pub and come back to school after that. In this case he did drink _something_ and he did came back from _somewhere_, but not anything like you would normally understand when talking about 'having a drink'. As far as I know the saying has nothing to do with amount of time or being fashionable. Iris -- Iris http://www.livejournal.com/users/iris_cloudscape/ FanFiction http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2481321/1/ From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 10:28:47 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:28:47 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's Tarot Tarot Reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134095 leslie41 wrote: > When Harry is hiding from Trelawney in book 10, just after he's > discovered the HPB's potions book, she walks past him, muttering to > herself. > > But it's not just muttering. She's doing a reading. She pulls out > the two of spades (conflict), seven of spades (ill omen), ten of > spades (violence), and knave of spades?"A dark young man, possibly > troubled, who dislikes the questioner." > > Trelawney is doing, in fact, a tarot card reading. Spades are the > lesser arcana's version of swords, and the brief interpretations > that Trelawney gives as she walks support this. anthyroserain: Thanks for your brilliant analysis of the cards! I decided to snip all of your comments from this post, because they were so detailed and excellent that I didn't know what to take out. Everybody, read the original post! I have a few comments, just to add some additional speculation to everything you've already said. Two of Swords: If you accept ESE! Snape, this could be Dumbledore's blindness about Snape. He's too intelligent and trusting to make the right decision. But then again, it's Harry's reading, so it may be, as you say, Harry's need to "look at both sides." It might be he who is blind to the situation. I'd also add that this card seems to suggest occlumency. The description on the site you linked to says "A balance between equally matched opponents. A duel. Blocked emotions. Tension. Holding in emotions. Defensiveness." Sounds like Snape and Harry's final duel, and Snape's advice. Seven of swords: It's The Flight of the Prince. This card, more than the others, might seem to point to ESE!Snape. But it also could signify intrigue and acting as a spy. It's Snape on the card, but whose side is he betraying? Of course, as in the book, it's ambiguous. And again, it's Harry's reading, so this suggests that perhaps he doesn't know the entirety of Snape's motives. Another website (http://www.paranormality.com/tarot_seven_of_swords.shtml) has the description "Reluctance to carry through daring actions when necessary, failure of nerve and indecision. Inability and reluctance to complete what has been started." This definitely sounds like Snape's reluctance to kill Dumbledore! But whether that is reluctance due to the UV (ESE!Snape) or the promise Dumbledore may have urged him to make earlier (good!Snape) is left open. Ten of Swords: The clearest. Nothing I have to add here. Page of Swords: This is a bit of what http://www.paranormality.com/tarot_page_of_swords.shtml says: "Upright - A good personal emissary, although sometimes a card associated with spying or surveying others from a detached viewpoint. Ill Dignified or Reversed - A two faced, cunning and possibly vindictive person... A seeker of hidden weaknesses in enemies, devious and given to snooping in other people's affairs." Sure sounds like the Great Snape Debate :D leslie41: > It is my view that these readings are relatively neutral in terms of > their judgement on the character. The negative aspects are balanced > out by the positive. I agree. I believe Snape is on the good side, but I think this is all an indication that JKR could go either way with this, and she intends to leave it open and surprise us all... -anthyroserain From jvarendonk at digitalme.com Fri Jul 22 10:18:32 2005 From: jvarendonk at digitalme.com (iiris_0) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:18:32 -0000 Subject: Way to find out who R.A.B. is? (spoilers) In-Reply-To: <00a801c58ea6$0143e7f0$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134096 > Emily: > > Danish: Sirius Zwarts TrekkieGrrrl wrote: > Uhm sorry, but no. He's Sirius Black in Danish as well. Perhaps > you're thinking of Dutch? Sirius Zwarts In Dutch definitely! In Dutch a lot of names are translated, it's really annoying if one tries to have a converstion with some one who has read the translation. I'll get my hands on a translated copy as soon as it hits the shops (somewhere in November I believe). It would count as a spoiler I suppose? Some people might not want to know? Iris, from Holland obviously -- Iris http://www.livejournal.com/users/iris_cloudscape/ FanFiction http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2481321/1/ From jvarendonk at digitalme.com Fri Jul 22 10:29:21 2005 From: jvarendonk at digitalme.com (iiris_0) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:29:21 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134097 Nickel wrote: > > My question is this: Does anyone think that Charlie will be > making an appearance in Book 7? If so, what will his role be? > Will he be bringing in some foreign wizards that he has > recruited? If he doesn't make an appearance again, what has > his role in the books been? Is he just there to show that the > Order is working in other countries? Well yes, I have some ideas, only it brings us back at the Horcruxes again. Voldemort has travelled though the world to learn more and darker magic. Maybe Dumbledore believes that one or more of the Horcruxes might be outside of Britain. Then Charlie's work could be tracking those? Remember, Dumbledore has believed there where more than one since CoS. Bill's work at Gringotts might fit into this, too. We don't know what his 'desk job' is about, but maybe antique artifacts or tracking tips about treasure sites (with might turn out to be Horcrux sites)? Iris -- Iris http://www.livejournal.com/users/iris_cloudscape/ FanFiction http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2481321/1/ From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 10:48:06 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:48:06 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die!/Wizard Population In-Reply-To: <008701c58ea6$2bda0170$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134098 Duffypoo said: Actually, I am convinced of it. I will be completely surprised if he lives. He will die to protect someone after he has finished LV. There will still be DE's in the fray (I don't envision a one-on-one between LV & HP). Brothergib replies: I've always assumed that is what Snape's role will be i.e. to clear the path of DE's for HArry to have a go at Voldemort. Or maybe Snape will have to lure Voldemort to a final meeting with Harry (? the veil/ personally I'd just lock him in the love room and leave him there!!). But clearly JKR always bangs on about the importance of choice! Have you noticed DD never instructs Harry, he always lets him make up his own mind/make his own choices. The end will obviously require Harry making some huge choice wrt Voldemort. Obviously a life/death choice (as with Lily) is the most obvious. However, I am still not sure due to; 1) the last word being 'scar' 2) JKR's early interviews tended to suggest that she could continue with Harry, but she didn't think she would want to!! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 10:49:26 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:49:26 -0400 Subject: Draco and Azkaban Message-ID: <000901c58eab$083c0470$73c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134099 No, no, not together! Two questions. 1. Who or what is now guarding Azkaban? I seriously expected Malfoy and the DE's to have been back on the streets by the beginning, or very shortly into, HBP. Draco's task, of course, is why LM had to be kept inside, but what on earth is keeping them there? 2. How did Draco Malfoy find out about the charmed coins the DA was using? He said he overheard HP and HG talking about Filch not recognizing potions because he's not much of a wizard and that's how he thought of the poison in the mead. But how did he find out about the coins? Was there more than one spy in the DA? 3 (Ooops) Did no one at the last DA meeting realize that Marietta Edgecomb was missing? Cho didn't seem to go anywhere without her how did she manage to find her way to the meeting without Marietta on her arm? CathyD TrentonON [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 11:01:03 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:01:03 -0000 Subject: Draco and Azkaban In-Reply-To: <000901c58eab$083c0470$73c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134100 Cathy Drolet: > 1. Who or what is now guarding Azkaban? I seriously expected Malfoy and the DE's to have been back on the streets by the beginning, or very shortly into, HBP. Draco's task, of course, is why LM had to be kept inside, but what on earth is keeping them there? AD: There was a brute-force solution to this problem in the fanfic "After the End". Do what Barty Crouch Jr. did to Moody--keep the prisoners Stupefied all the time. Amiable Dorsai From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 11:13:27 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:13:27 -0000 Subject: Fifth Years In-Reply-To: <8.6ccaea1b.3011b041@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/21/2005 5:48:30 PM Central Standard Time, > gbannister10 at a... writes: > Geoff: > In fact, I don't think they did - or not during the currency of the > book... > Yes they did. Read a little further. > Melissa: > The White Tomb > > Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together. The > beautiful > weather seemed to mock them; Harry could imagine how it would have been if > Durnbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of > the year, Ginny's > examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted ... and hour by hour, > he put off saying the thing that he knew he must say, doing what he knew it > was right to do, because it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort. Geoff: I must agree with other posters. This is a conditional clause.... The giveaway is the the "had had". It's a bit like a BASIC statement in computing. IF.. Dumbledore had not died... THEN.. they would have had this time together etc. etc. but because the IF was not fulfiled, the THEN didn't follow. We have been told that lessons were suspended, examinations postponed... Pupils were obviously leaving early and the Hogwarts Express was scheduled to leave an hour after the funeral. Dumbledore's funeral would be held fairly soon after his death so there was no time to reinstate the examinations. From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Fri Jul 22 11:18:57 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:18:57 -0000 Subject: One more reason why Snape is Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134102 Well, while I really can't believe that for the whole 5 books (and even earlier) DD was wrong about Snape I have to say that there is one, the most convincing for me, reason why we can't hope for good Snape in book 7: While reading HBP I was constantly wondering why on earth has it been called Harry Potter and THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE?? I cound't see how the true identity of HBP can have possible relevance to the plot. When it turns out that Snape is HBP I still wasn't sure why the whole book is called HBP - apart from the fact that we learn that Snape used to call himself HBP when he was at school we dont get any new information (we already know that he is very good at potions and it's not a big kind of shock that he invents new spells when we knew he was very good student!!) Then I thought that if the book is called HBP and it turned out that HBP is Snape we can safely assume that the title could be also Harry Potter and Snape. And then it came to me! Of course! The sixth book was meant to be called HP and Snape (not to be so obvious:HP and HBP) and not 'HP and a strange guy who calls himself HBP which will be very relevant'!! It was always about Snape. The important thing about the 6th book isn't the secret identity of HBP! It's not about who he is! It's all about Snape. I dont know if i'm clear about it - what I want to say is that while reading i was thinking that the identity of HBP will turn out to be the most important at the end - wrong - the most important was the man behind that nickname who was imortnat throughout the whole book!! Now, until the 6th book we were all (almost all :D) under the impression that we have to trust Snape. All canon evidences were point out that although Snape is mean and cruel he is on the good side (DD trust him, he's spying for the Order, Harry's suspitions always turned out to be wrong etc) And then comes 6th book with him in the title and he turns out to be evil and kills DD! What would be a point in naming the 6th book HP and HBP (HP and SNAPE) when the biggest surprise within this book will turn out to be false in the next book?? Again, I dont know if I make myself clear - Snape have to be evil because if he wouldnt the whole book wouldnt be titled in this way! If I, before reading that book, knew that the title is Harry Poter and Snape I would expect something huge to be revealed about him. And there is - he turns out to be evil! Think about it - the book title tells us that something about Snape is importnat to the plot - it just CANT turn out that the whole sixth book was a joke and Snape isnt really evil!!! Can't express it in the better way, sorry :D Hope you understand what I mean PS. I must say that even though I'm almost sure that Snape is evil I cant still believe that DD could be so wrong about him!!! It just doesnt make sense... There is a couple of things that bothers me: 1. Was DD really pleading for death? or anything connected with it? maybe he has something else on his mind? He adresses Snape 'Severus' the moment he enter the scene - and as Harry noted his voice has changed... I really dont know what does it mean, anyone?? 2. Why Snape have to be informed by FF that there are DE in the castle? If he knew the plan (as he said in the 2nd chapter) he should be aware? Why wasn't he patroling corridors like others? 3. If he told Narcissia and Bellatrix that he knew the plan why was he pretending not to know about it anything while speaking with Draco?? Julia, who loves the scene where Malfoy cries :D From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 22 11:24:14 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore gone! Message-ID: <42E0D75E.7050508@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134103 But but but but......... He never told us the answers to sooo many things I wanted to know, like.............. 1 How he could become invisible without a cloak 2 What the 12 uses of Dragon's blood are 3 The fascinating tale of how his hand died 4 What the smoke snakes really meant when they divided 5 How he acquired Fawkes 6 If his ancestry included Godric Gryffindor 7 How to destroy a Horcrux 8 Why he trusted Snape 9 Why he did not tell Minerva anything 10 Why his brother is undercover at the Hog's Head pub 11 How to do all those marvellous unspoken spells 12 How he defeated Grindlewald 13 If he was an animagus or metamorphmagus I'm sure there is more, but I can't think of them right now. I'm hoping his portrait is going to wake up soon and start telling Harry some information, but I expect our Hero will have to figure it out for himself now ;-) digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/55 - Release Date: 21/07/2005 From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 11:34:55 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:34:55 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die!/Wizard Population In-Reply-To: <008701c58ea6$2bda0170$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Brothergib said: > > "It seems that what is most important to JKR is that we are > completely shocked and surprised in her books. And she usualy > manages it. What would be more shocking than Harry dying in book 7. > It is something I'm sure we all worry about, but (be very honest > here) do any of us truly believe that Harry won't survive book 7. " Cathy: > Actually, I am convinced of it. I will be completely surprised if > he lives. He will die to protect someone after he has finished LV. > There will still be DE's in the fray (I don't envision a one-on-one > between LV & HP). HP saving Draco from Lucius would be interesting - > if, of course, LM ever gets out of Azkaban. Geoff: Taking the opposite view, I have always taken a crumb of comfort from: 'In years to come, Harry woudl never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door ar any moment.' (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.191 UK edition) It gives the feel of looking back and reminiscing well after the event. To misquote a famous literary young lady, Cos if Harry dies, I shall scream and scream and scream until I'm sick. And I can you know.... From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 22 11:47:00 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:47:00 -0000 Subject: Snape giveaway by JKR in BBC interview? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "desastreuse" wrote: > Medeacallous writes: > > > But no Snape, despite what she always says about what a horrible > > person he is?! desastreuse: > Yes, I noted that, too, when I read the interview. It seems to me > that Rowling is truly hedging when it comes to Snape's nature (e.g., > the recent Leaky Cauldron interview) but did give herself away here > a bit. The omission of Snape is very telling, indeed. The small- > potatoes cruelty of Umbridge, the smarminess of Lockhart, the > priggish bullying of Dursley capped only by the predictable violence > of Voldemort leaves a hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through > when it comes to Snape's "apparent" cruel, evil, and violent > treachery. Certainly she hasn't forgotten potentially and arguably > the worst villain of the entire series, he of the gross greasy hair > and the yellow teeth, the one she just wrote most recently about in > her most controversal text yet? Marianne: I'm not sure we can take any particular JKR answer to a specific question and necessarily make broad assumptions. Sure, in this case she didn't list Snape. But, in part 2 of the recent Leaky Cauldron interview she tosses off a line like "Yes, I've killed off (am killing off) my favorite members of the Order of the Phoenix." Of the current Order members she's now killed off Sirius, Dumbledore and Emmeline Vance. From that one could assume that Snape is not one of her favorites...or that he's not really a member of the Order since he's truly a DE...or JKR was thinking specifically of Sirius and Dumbledore, both of whom she's said over the course of years that she likes, and is not really thinking about the other, live Order members. Marianne From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 11:46:10 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:46:10 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134106 > aussie says: > My 1st posting about this was message 132975:- > > Snape, a Slytherin student with ambitions, had call himself a "Half- > Blood"? It is not title you would give yourself to advance your > position in that house. It seems "HBP" would endear him to muggle > borns, (ie. Lilly) > lotta snippage Doddie here: If Snape thought so much of himself to give his own self the title of HBP... then he probably loathes what Lord Voldy has done to promote the "thou shalt be pure" line... LV probably promoted said line because he has seen the end of the line result of "keeping blood pure" after his visit to the "House of Gaunt"... Snape thinks WW should be ruled on talent alone not bloodlines..hence he is always carrying on about who has absolutely no talent.(I find him to be hilarious that he'd write potion recipies on the board right out of the prescribed text rather than out of his own text book! It explains that he wants no one to move further...like him) Snape thinks powerful half-bloods are the answer...but only selectively so---soley based on talent. Hence, Snape has not married (because he is a "slimy git"..but also because he can always talk himself out of marrying someone he considers to be "less than" himself---particularly talent wise.. Hence Lily was a whiz-bang at potions..so he "created jinxes" while seething in class or while seething over his potions homework. I might argue that Slughorn liked Lily because she was so good looking with her startling green eyes and most talented that she would be a suitable mate for one of his slytherins(i.e. if no pureblood available then find the most talented "mudblood"...Perhaps Slug suggested Snape pursue her and Snape was insulted..and worse yet...Snape was only invited to parties because slug thought he may be a "date" for Lily...However, just like Harry and Luna---Lily felt pity for Snape..as her son did for Luna! Only Luna just is looking for a friend...BUT Snape is looking for a "leg-up"...(can you imagine the ridicule he received in Slytherin house if my conjecture is correct?) I still hate Snape...but this is what wanders thought my mind when I wonder why Slug praises Lily and not Snape.. Lily had muggle parents...yet she was brilliant at more than one subject...(charms and potions...and since Minerva remembers her she was a remembered member of gryffindor and/or her transfig. class) After all, Hermione was invited to the Slug Club as well....she never said she hated the meetings....And she attended more meetings than Harry ever did... I love it that at the meeting Harry showed up at; McClaggen was there on Hermione's invite LOL! Doddie (who still hates Snape who has been responsible for entirely too many deaths and ruined lives!) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jul 22 11:49:43 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:49:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's textbook and Narcissa's tears Message-ID: <5b.6e11db78.30123757@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134107 In a message dated 7/21/2005 3:16:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, zgirnius at yahoo.com writes: > zgirnius: > I could see that, certainly Draco also seems not to be prime DE > material. Although what I really want to know is, what is it with Cissy > and Snape?! Why did she think he would try to help her? Why did he take > the UV?? (more love?! Snape?) > I had speculated something along that line in my post 'Snape's reasons'. I suspect that the Lily/Snape SHIP is a delusion. IMO, their actual relationship was similar to that of Hermione and Draco. In fact, Lily's excellence at Potions may very well have inspired Snape to develop his new versions. he may never even have used them in class. After all, Slughorn didn't seem to recognize any of the more unusual changes [adding a sprig of mint?} or to refer to them having been done before. I suspect that the SHIP we should all be looking for is Snape/Narcissa. It, IMO, fits her attitude during chapter two. Note, I don't say SHE loved HIM, just that Snape loves her. I think our little 'half-blood prince' arrived on the Hogwarts Express and met the Blacks. He may have heard his mother speak of them as old friends [supposing she was Slytherin] and hoped to make friends as well. Once I knew who the HBP was, I saw the first use of it with a comma. Someone called him "That Half-Blood, Prince" and he took it and made it a source of pride. As he spent time in school, he fell for the Black's youngest daughter [speculations as per the family tree in Grimauld Place]. As a half-blood, of course, he never had a chance [Tonk's mom was cast out of the family for marrying a Muggle-born] but he may have acted on it before he realize it [paraphrase: folks who wear their heart on their sleeves] so Narcissa knew how he felt. This, far better than a close association with Lucius, explains his treatment of Draco. He helped him, protected him, not for Lucius, not for their House, but for his resemblance to his mom, because Draco was her only child. Remember, Narcissa was the reason Draco want to Hogwarts, Lucuis wanted him to go to Drumstrang. Narcissa may well have asked Snape to look after Draco before this. So, if LV was aware of this he'd use it, naturally. If he was unsatisfied by Snape's responses [he's such a superb occulamens, after all] what better way to bind Snape to the Death Eaters and LV beyond all redemption than to force HIM to kill DD. LV surely never thought Draco could get away with it. So, did he assign Draco the task, then call Narcissa to him offering her a way to save her son? This would explain the oddness of that brief wait on the tower. It would have explained Snape's expression, his hatred was of himself for once more falling for an emotional setup. All that rage, all that hatred was directed not at DD, but at LV, at Narcissa, at Draco, and most of all, at himself. If is was a setup from the start, I don't think Draco knew. it would have been very important that Draco act as if he wasn't expecting to either succeed or survive. If so, it almost failed when Draco refused to admit Snape into his confidence. Hm, now we enter the realm of vague speculation [smirk]. Was Snape's mom a blond? Her hair is never described. Why do I ask? Well, could Draco be Snape's son? A night with an Imperioused Narcissa being Snape's reward for joining, for the info on the Prophesy? Nice and bang-y and Draco is around Harry's age...one of the three specifically listed as not turning seventeen yet. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RoxyElliot at aol.com Fri Jul 22 11:54:50 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:54:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? Message-ID: <19c.37dc22d6.3012388a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134108 In a message dated 7/21/2005 10:35:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: but I can think of 2 "Anvils" that Ms. Rowling apparently forgot about. Krum's jealousy of Harry in GOF and Cho's jealousy of Hermione in OOTP. Not Ron and not Ginny, Melissa Those weren't anvils. That wasn't about how Harry or Hermione felt about one another, but about how others perceived their relationship. If anything those are big hints that H/Hr would not get together. Compare your examples to Ron and Hermione's jealousy whenever the other is with someone of the opposite sex. How much more obvious could Rowling have been? That being said one of the few things I disliked about this book was that Ron and Hermione were once again acting like they were in GOF. The teenage sexual tension got on my nerves. My hope for book 7 is that be done with that. Roxanne _http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com_ (http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 11:59:27 2005 From: phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk (Kate Harding) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:59:27 -0000 Subject: Best yet! Plus Harry the horcrux, and who does Snape love? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134109 My overal thoughts on HBP - I think it's the best yet by far ? the only one that comes close, IMO, is PoA. It flowed so much more naturally, and surprised us constantly ? Jo constantly going against her own conventions in the most delightful way, for example Snape finally getting the DADA job ? and moved far ahead of where I expected. It's good to see she doesn't sit on her plot! I just wish we didn't have to wait 2 years for the next one. I was *so* glad to see something real of Draco in this book. As I've said before, up to now we've only ever seen the outer shell, but now we've finally had a look at the real Draco, at his real thoughts and feelings, and have a better understanding of him as a person. Which probably goes along with his own development ? he himself would have thought he was capable of killing, but we now know that's not his nature, however unpleasant he is in other respects. I fear for him, though. I dread to think what Voldemort will do to him, and what he will force himself to do now for the sake of his life and those of his family. I was so pleased to read about horcruxes, because it has been my theory all along that Voldemort had hidden his soul in an object (an idea found in many fairy tales, as I've said before), and that part of his soul must be in Harry, explaining why Harry has some of his abilities, and a telepathic link to him, and also why `neither can live if the other survives'. I believe Harry is a horcrux, but I don't believe Voldemort *intended* that, as it seems to me that he can't *know* that Harry is a horcrux ? if he did he wouldn't have tried to kill him at the end of GoF. I also believe, for this reason, that Harry will have to die killing Voldemort in order for Voldemort to actually really die. And the Snape stuff was wonderful. I still believe Dumbledore was right about him. I don't believe Dumbledore planned to die, but I do believe his pleading was to nudge Snape to do what needed to be done to keep up his cover (and possibly save Harry, who had not yet been discovered by the other Death Eaters lurking on the tower top). What I'm currently very interested in is the question of who Snape loves (Jo has said we'll learn more about this in book 7, soit must be significant). My own theory is that this is key to his motivation. There is good reason, I think, to believe that he was in love with Lily. Now I know this makes me sound like a deranged shipper, but I'm really not, and I take comfort from the fact that I note that Cindy takes a similar line in post 133969. Have a look at this quote: Pg 512-3 Dumbledore says Snape did not know "`which boy Voldemort would hunt from then on, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father - ' Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter. `He hated my dad like he hated Sirius!' `You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned - '" When Harry tells the others (pg 575) that this was the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape, Lupin makes the same observation ? that Snape hated James. But noone can say how he felt about Lily. Harry assumes that he felt only contempt for her because he called her `mudblood'. But really this means nothing, IMO. It's true we've seen him fawn over pure-bloods, and he may well be touchy about his own blood line (how could you not be growing up in Slytherin?), but that wouldn't necessarily stop him loving her. The scene Harry saw in the pensieve in OotP might suggest that actually Lily and Snape had been friends. She was quick to leap to his defence, and while this may have been simply compassion, there was something about the way she retorted `*Snivellus*' after he called her mudblood, the stress on the name suggesting that this was a very deliberately given insult ? the feel of it would fit, to my mind, if they had previously been friendly, so when he called her mudblood (out of Slytheriny embarrassment that he needed help from a muggle-born) she responded (in anger and pain that he should suddenly treat her so) by using the nickname she knows he loathes, the first time she had done so probably. Then there's the occasion at the start of OotP when Petunia says she knows about dementors because she overheard `that awful boy telling *her* about them'. Harry responds `If you mean my mum and dad why don't you use their names?', which has the feel to me of Jo asking the reader why ? a nudge to think about that question. Others have said elsewhere, and it seems highly possible, that `that awful boy' is not in fact James, but Snape. Also, we now know Lily was a Potions genius, which would definitely appeal to Snape. I'm not for a moment suggesting that she cared for him that way, purely unrequited love on his part, but you can easily imagine that for someone like Snape, who lacked love and was generally treated badly, that a little kindness from an attractive girl might result in a serious obsession on his part. I've seen it happen many times at school and university! All in all, if Snape had been in love with Lily, then the shock of her death could be enough to turn him round, as Dumbledore suggests. And all other things being equal, I'm still inclined to believe Dumbledore knows what he's talking about. However, in the second chapter of HBP I was quite convinced that Snape must have been in love with Narcissa Malfoy. It seemed to me that it was her pain that convinced him to make the unbreakable vow. There was no real need for him to do so ? it went against the spirit of the Dark Lord's orders, since he wanted Draco to do the job on his own, or at least to try, and that observation would have been enough to let Snape off the hook. I felt that he agreed because he couldn't bear to see her cry. On pg 38, "Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he couldn't not pretend not to hear her." I now think I was barking up the wrong tree, though. Perhaps it was affection for Draco that changed his mind. psyche From RoxyElliot at aol.com Fri Jul 22 12:01:14 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:01:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR interview - editing suggestion for OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134110 In a message dated 7/21/2005 11:17:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com writes: I noticed in the MN/TLC interview with JKR she talked about OotP being overly long but challenged anyone to say where it could be cut. Well, I would have to say I never understood why there was an entire chapter devoted to Hagrid and Madam Maxime's journey to the giants. IMO that was the most boring (actual only boring) chapter of all HP books to date. Maybe it will come into play in book seven and that's why its there. Thoughts? If anyone can convince the Giants to switch sides it's Hagrid and Maxime. I see this happening in book 7, perhaps they'll even help Harry find a Hocrux. I see Harry visiting a lot of places and people in Book 7 and needing their help. IMO we'll see the giants again. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oaksong at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 11:59:24 2005 From: oaksong at yahoo.com (oaksong) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:59:24 -0000 Subject: How much will it weigh? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134111 I'm betting about 10 pounds. Things to do: 1. Find Horcruxes 2. Stay alive 3. Get a job as a clerk in the Weasley's shop 4. Fight with the Ministry 5. Deal with the other characters 6. Work with the OOTP 7. Fight Voldemort 10. Win a quidditch match? 11. Who gets redeemed? Draco? Snape? 12. Will Harry get DD's shade out of Snape's wand? Maybe it will come out in 2 volumes..... And will Dan be too old to play Harry by the time it's released? Oaksong. From angellima at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 22 11:18:28 2005 From: angellima at xtra.co.nz (Angel Lima) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:18:28 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) References: Message-ID: <003f01c58eaf$16a10700$7da737d2@Angel> No: HPFGUIDX 134112 SSSusan: Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points and just got them out of the way? Angel Lima: I had been trying to bite my tongue on this. But yes! YES BING BING BING YES! HBP was a dastard disappointment. I remember putting the book away, shaking my head and picking it up again to see if there were any pages left unread. It felt as if JKR spent more time putting to rest rumours and miscontruals than on what's to come. The red herring on HBP was an utter shocker too, I remember feeling disgusted by that and the lack of Sirius angst. Still, it had its moments. Luna OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOODNESS! I spat coke on the bed... Mollywobbles Horntail...kinda made up for Harry and Ginny being such a hurried affair. Slughorn - whoo! A delight reading a true cunning Slytherin sans evil. Felix too was a scary but exciting additive. And I didn't need the extra trauma to LOUURRVE Snape all the more after HBP but I did, poor poor Princey... Dumbledore! Well we knew he was a definite gonner, but what exactly does his death add to the battle? Why did he have to die? And reluctantly I add myself to the sniffy list to such lines as 'I'm not afraid Harry, I'm with you' All in all its moments seem to redeem the book on a whole, esp given time. Angel Lima From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Fri Jul 22 12:38:35 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:35 -0400 Subject: Book Seven Predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507220839119.SM01996@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 134113 Why not start the fun early? Probably some (most?) of these will be way off-base, but don't read if you don't want to see possibilities for book seven. There are a lot of clues out there by now. 1. RAB is Regulus (Adolphus?) Black. 2. The locket that would not open at 12GP is the horcrux stolen by RAB. 3. Hedwig will die. 4. Fawkes will "join" Harry. (You cannot own a Phoenix, but Harry has earned Fawkes' loyalty.) 5. DD will have left most things to Harry, including the pensieve, which Harry will use to finally finish his education. 6. Harry WILL be at Hogwarts for his seventh year, but he'll not take the NEWTS, because he is away too much. 7. Harry's scar is the seventh horcrux, created by the AK rebounding from Lily's sacrificial love, captured by LV's intention to create a horcrux, and locked into the scar, neither apart from Harry nor within him. So his soul is pure, but he nevertheless has a soul-connection with LV through the scar. 8. The destruction of the scar will be the final step in destroying LV. Harry fully expects this will kill him, but goes ahead anyway. It does not kill him, but it does remove much of his power as a wizard. At the end, his abilities are somewhat close to Neville's -- not too shabby, but not great. 9. Aberforth Dumbledore will take over as head of the OotP. He may or may not give up being innkeeper at the Hogshead. He will NOT be Headmaster at Hogwarts. 10. Harry will be obsessed with killing Snape, and his obsession will result in the death of someone he cares about. 11. Harry will finally learn Occlumency, so that the next time he duels Snape, SS will not be able to tell what spell he is about to cast. 12. Harry will also learn Legilimancy, and turn out to be quite gifted at it. 13. Harry will finally defeat Snape, and use Legilimancy to find out why DD trusted SS, that SS was following DD's orders when he killed him, and that SS is on his side after all. Harry will refrain from killing SS at that point, but it will be too late. As part of the process, he will have exposed SS, who is then killed by either LV or one of the DEs. 14. Harry will learn from his invasion of Snape's mind that Snape loved Lily, that LV's intention to kill the Potters was what turned SS back to DD, and that Harry's having James' face but Lily's eyes are the main reason why Snape hates Harry so much. Harry will finally understand this when he sees this through Snape's memories -- but by then it will be too late. 15. Harry will finally travel to GH, where he will reconstruct what happened when his parents died. He MAY find horcruxes corresponding to Lily's and James' murders there in the rubble. (Actually, LV would have had them removed after his resurrection, unless DD placed powerful protective charms around the place.) 16. Nagini is a horcrux. LV owned her long before he killed the Potters. 17. (WAG) Nagini was at 12GP with LV, and one of the murders of Harry's parents caused that horcrux to be created within Nagini. 18. Ginny will help Harry destroy Nagini, partly because she is a Parselmouth, from her experiences in CoS. 19. Harry will spend much of book seven away from Hogwarts, chasing down horcruxes and learning how to destroy them. 20. Ron will finally mature in book seven, and start showing real leadership in the fight against LV, while Harry is away. He, rather than Harry, will be the King figure, and Ron/Hermione will finally make sense as a couple. 21. Ginny will be the final demonstration of selfless love for Harry, when she saves his life by giving hers for his. At the end, however, she will not have died, but she will provide the love needed to finally destroy LV. 22. Ginny will bring a nearly lifeless Harry out of the destruction that results from the final confrontation, so that he will survive once again, only because of her love. 23. Percy Weasley will be killed, either because he was recruited by the DEs and then repented, or because of Harry's misjudgment/obsession. 24. Ginny and Harry will finally settle down to make their garden grow. (Voltaire reference) 25. Ron and Hermione will move to the forefront in leading the WW. Ron will appear to be on a fast track towards becoming MoM. Hermione will become a Healer. That's enough to start with, anyway Vivamus From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 22 12:48:28 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:48:28 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore making a horcrux NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iiris_0" wrote: > One could say Dumbledore went for a drink and came back. However > not in the sense one would normally use the term. For normally one > would mean he went for a drink in a pub and come back to school > after that. In this case he did drink _something_ and he did came > back from _somewhere_, but not anything like you would normally > understand when talking about 'having a drink'. As far as I know > the saying has nothing to do with amount of time or being > fashionable. > I'll delurk too to agree with Iris's interpretation. The American version of "after a fashion" would be "in a way". But there is still an ambiguity to Dumbledore's words. He "had a drink" after a fashion - the potion, not a nice glass of whisky - that I understand. But "I came back - after a fashion" is not so clear to me. Going somewhere and coming back is, on the face of it, exactly what he did, but I think that he's referring to what happened to him in the cave. Did he go somewhere when he drank the potion? And how did he only come back "after a fashion"? It almost sounds as if he died. Harry thought he did for a moment - did he? Wanda From phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 12:54:18 2005 From: phoenix at risen.demon.co.uk (Kate Harding) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:54:18 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore making a horcrux NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134115 Valky: Not sure if this helps but, "after a fashion" is a common saying in British sort of English. I think, it means after a pretty short amount of time. Fashion, in this context, I believe, refers to "fads" (pop fashions) and umm "hypes" short lived, very exciting things.. like the life of fashions.. I think that's what it means. Check me if I am wrong any true brits out there.. Now me: Sorry, no. 'After a fashion' means 'in a way', 'in a manner of speaking'. Hadn't realised this wasn't an international phrase. psyche From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jul 22 13:01:26 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:01:26 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oaksong" wrote: > [snip] > > > > I choose to look at Snape's guilt or innocent based upon his entire > > HP history not only on fragments in the latest book. I want to keep > > an open mind as to what Rowling's verdict will be, rather than put > > all my eggs into my basket. As the H-Hr shippers have found, doing > > that only resulted in alot of broken eggs. > > > > Milz > > The Unbreakable Vow... > > The issue of the state of the vow hinges on what would happen if Snape > fails to kill DD. > > If failing to kill DD would result in the death of Draco, then DD is > automatically dead, regardless of whether or not Snape wants to do this. > > There is also a strong suggestion that Snape is under the same kind of > obediance requirement that Harry is under, from DD. DD has ordered > Snape to kill him if the situation calls for it and DD clearly > considers himself expendable in the effort to remove Voldemort. > > Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to > protect Harry? > > Oaksong. Possible, but we have no canon evidence of such an arrangement, do we? Let's not forget, Snape is acting as a spy and possibly as a double agent--if Draco is correct. If Snape is a double agent, his life is in danger no matter what the final outcome is. According to "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, you can use double agents---but once they have served their purposes, you must eliminate them because you can never be certain where their loyalities lie. Snape killing Dumbledore can be viewed as having served his purpose for Voldemort---Snape can't go back to the OoP after doing something like that can he? If he were to leave the DEs, he would be killed. Moreover, he now has the Ministry and the OoP after him. So, his survival prospects are dim, imo. Milz From rtb333 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:04:54 2005 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:04:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134117 I have posted this on other sites, but I wanted to know what you all think. The significance of Harry having his mother's eyes is that he sees the world as she does. He doesn't seem to be the cocky overconfident James. In HBP in chapter 3 Slughorn gives a description of the Lily he knew. Being bright and cheeky and he commented that she should have been in Slytherin. When I read this (the second time) I thought Harry is really cheeky in this book and the sorting hat thought to put him in slytherin. I think this shows that Harry has his mother's propensity to love. Best Scene: Snape: "Potter, didn't I say to use nonverbal spells?" Harry: "Yes" Snape: "Yes, Sir" Harry: "There is no need to call me Sir" From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Jul 22 13:05:00 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:05:00 -0000 Subject: Draco and Azkaban In-Reply-To: <000901c58eab$083c0470$73c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > No, no, not together! > > Two questions. > > 1. Who or what is now guarding Azkaban? I seriously expected Malfoy and the DE's to have been back on the streets by the beginning, or very shortly into, HBP. Draco's task, of course, is why LM had to be kept inside, but what on earth is keeping them there? Hickengruendler: Two reasons: First, no matter who's guarding Azkaban now (I suppose it are Aurors) it is still on an island. It is really not that easy to escape from there. Second: It is IMO strongly implied in the book, that Malfoy and the others don't really want to escape. Dumbledore said, that they were safter there from Voldemort's wrath. Hickengruendler > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 22 13:11:20 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:11:20 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kate Harding" wrote: > Sadly, I have no speculation on what the cryptic 'Yes and no' means. > Sorry I didn't read your very good theory on Dumbledore's possible death before my last post - the inferi idea is intriguing. The 'Yes and no' is a little confusing to me, also. He's responding to Draco's previous statement: 'We decided to put the Dark Mark over the Tower and get you to hurry up here, to see who'd been killed,' said Malfoy. 'And it worked!' Dumbledore says yes and no to this. Maybe, 'YES, you got me to come up here, but NO, *it didn't work*.' So something has gone wrong in Draco's plan, of which he is unaware. (And right now, so am I!) What could be the loophole, the flaw in this scene? There must be one somewhere. Wanda From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:14:43 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722131443.19598.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134120 Milz wrote: Possible, but we have no canon evidence of such an arrangement, do we? Let's not forget, Snape is acting as a spy and possibly as a double agent--if Draco is correct. If Snape is a double agent, his life is in danger no matter what the final outcome is. According to "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, you can use double agents---but once they have served their purposes, you must eliminate them because you can never be certain where their loyalities lie. Snape killing Dumbledore can be viewed as having served his purpose for Voldemort---Snape can't go back to the OoP after doing something like that can he? If he were to leave the DEs, he would be killed. Moreover, he now has the Ministry and the OoP after him. So, his survival prospects are dim, imo. Milz My reply: And yet I am positive this will not be an issue. You really think she is just going to kill off Snape without any answers? Without any thoughts? I very seriously doubt this... There is a possibility that all of these answers lay in Dumbledores pensieve something that Harry will likely have to access to find out more information on the Horcruxes. Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:20:45 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722132045.7717.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134121 What could be the loophole, the flaw in this scene? There must be one somewhere. Wanda Part of me wondered if Dumbledore actually thought Snape and the others were going to come to the tower that night. He even told that to Malfoy...and he knew that Draco wasn't going to kill him. So the loophole could be "Yes" you got me here but "No" there won't be a killing. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:38:55 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:38:55 -0000 Subject: One more reason why Snape is Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" wrote: > 2. Why Snape have to be informed by FF that there are DE in the > castle? If he knew the plan (as he said in the 2nd chapter) he > should be aware? Why wasn't he patroling corridors like others? > > 3. If he told Narcissia and Bellatrix that he knew the plan why was > he pretending not to know about it anything while speaking with > Draco?? > > Julia, who loves the scene where Malfoy cries :D Now Kelly: I think "the plan" was simply for Malfoy to kill DD. It was up to Malfoy to work out the details of the plan. Therefore, it is possible that Snape knew about the plan but did not know how the plan was to be executed. That is why he pressed Malfoy for details and did not know the Death Eaters were in the castle until FF told him. I also think Snape used legilimency to find out the plan during Spinner's End. Narcissa, in her desperate state, would have been easy prey for Snape's legilimency at that time. Kelly, who is still in shock From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:47:30 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722134730.10263.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134123 --- rtb333 wrote: > Best Scene: > > Snape: "Potter, didn't I say to use nonverbal > spells?" > Harry: "Yes" > Snape: "Yes, Sir" > Harry: "There is no need to call me Sir" ahhh, yes. that was a very EXCELLENT scene in my mind. was expecting snape to deck him for that. But snape's response was really good laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 13:48:15 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:48:15 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: <42DD7C6B.8050008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Julie W wrote: > Julie H/urghiggi wrote: > > >"Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back .... after a fashion," mumbled > >Dumbledore. "So you decided to spring a trap for me?" > > > >"We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry up here, to see > >who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" > > > >"Well .... yes and no ...." said Dumbledore. > > > >Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? > > > What if by drinking the potion and then the water the inferi were > floating in he was dead? Not dying, but dead. Animated and aware, but > dead all the same. Maybe a wizard!zombie!! I had the same thought, Julie H., that Dumbledore might have come back as a zombie. That would also explain why Snape's Avada Kedavra didn't produce instantaneous death (as a proper AK normally would), but instead threw DD from the tower. We know that the AK will smash inanimate objects. Perhaps DD was more like an inanimate object at that point. Merrylinks From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 14:02:53 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:02:53 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134125 "curlyhornedsnorkack" wrote: > So Snape killing Dumbledore was actually > good for the OOTP because Snape kept his cover. That just doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't seem in character that Dumbledore would ask anyone to split his soul and become a murderer under any circumstances. And if Snape did discover something useful about Voldemort who in the Order could he tell about it, who would believe him? And Dumbledore would have to be crazy not to let Harry in on the plan, if Harry saw Snape murder him Dumbledore must have known him well enough to know Harry would move heaven and earth to kill Snape or die in the attempt. Eggplant From rtb333 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 14:03:13 2005 From: rtb333 at yahoo.com (rtb333) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:03:13 -0000 Subject: Snape is not evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134126 I think it is time for a reread of HBP for some people. It has been stated a number of times, but every Snape!ESE theorist is running with their Harry-Goggles on. First off: Snape had the perfect opportunity to kill(or not heal) Dumbledor. DD comments that he would have died of the injuries the ring's hex gave him if not for Professor Snape. Snape doesn't try to kill Harry at the end when he has ample opportunity. Isn't it funny that they didn't bring Harry back to Voldemort when they had the chance. Snape gave the order to leave Harry. Those are irrefutable facts towards Snapes loyalty to DD. The speculation starts when addressing issues of the Unbreakable Vow and his conversation with Draco. These can be read as a fishing expedition. They can also be read as Evil!Snape. I prefer the first. I just implore all Evil!Snape fans to look analyse the character that is Snape and not focus your angry/sad energy towards him.(Yes, I am angry and sad About the untimely Demise of DD. That is why I am here trying to burn that energy) Rob (With a swish of my cloak and a very soft pop, I am gone) From skruuska at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 14:07:02 2005 From: skruuska at hotmail.com (skruuska) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:07:02 -0000 Subject: Big crocodile tears.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134127 I just finished chapter twenty-eight and I can't believe it. I don't want to give anything away, but this is possibly the saddest thing that has ever happened in any of the HP books. I'm at work and at risk of getting fired, because I can't put it down!!! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 14:15:09 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:15:09 -0400 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die!/Wizard Population References: <1122033573.1710.72431.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002901c58ec7$c617c5d0$6362d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134128 Geoff said: Taking the opposite view, I have always taken a crumb of comfort from: 'In years to come, Harry woudl never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door ar any moment.' (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.191 UK edition) I wish I had your faith. Considering HP was only 11 at the time, 'in years to come' could mean 3rd year or 4th year... CathyD DuffyPoo From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 14:58:55 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:58:55 -0000 Subject: Snape is not evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtb333" wrote: Snip> I think it is time for a reread of HBP for some people. It has been > stated a number of times, but every Snape!ESE theorist is running with > their Harry-Goggles on. > > First off: > Snape had the perfect opportunity to kill(or not heal) Dumbledor. > DD comments that he would have died of the injuries the ring's hex > gave him if not for Professor Snape. > Snape doesn't try to kill Harry at the end when he has ample > opportunity. Isn't it funny that they didn't bring Harry back to > Voldemort when they had the chance. Snape gave the order to leave > Harry. > Those are irrefutable facts towards Snapes loyalty to DD. Sue here: I don't know about "irrefutable", but I'm going to keep an open mind about this till Book 7 comes out, and add to the above: 1. There was that conversation overheard by Hagrid - red herring? I suspect not. Some time, we'll have to find out what "it" is that Snape doesn't want to do any more. 2. He could have killed DD at any time after GoF - why merely spy on DD when he could kill his master's greatest enemy? The Minister of Magic was an idiot, the wizarding world was in chaos, or getting there - it would have been an ideal time to do it! Plus he must have been giving an Oscar-winning performance during that scene where he agreed to take on the mission for DD. 3. If he actually WAS under LV's orders to spy on DD, why did LV lie to the DE's in that scene in GoF? 4. He could have killed Flitwick in his office before proceeding to the roof - why not? He had nothing further to lose. He could have zapped Hermione and Luna. Instead, he knocked out Flitwick, who wasn't even badly hurt, and misdirected the girls. In fact, as far as I recall, nobody from Hogwarts actually died except DD. (If I'm forgetting someone forgive me!) 5. DD knew what Draco was up to - who told him about it if not Snape? I am with those who suspect that the deed was an emergency plan - "if worst comes to worst, you'll have to kill me, to convince LV that you're on his side and give Harry his chance." The loathing on his face may have been anger with DD for forcing him to do this. I could be wrong, of course - and we will all have two years of fun speculating. I do believe that Snape will be dead by the end of Book 7, but under what circumstances, I don't know. Harry may not be quite ready for his final confrontation, but then, DD was taken by surprise - and so was Snape, for that matter. From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 14:59:35 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:59:35 -0000 Subject: Query: How Do Curses Work? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134130 Is there any evidence to support the possibility that a curse is broken when the person who placed the curse dies? For instance, when Voldemort is dead, could the DADA jinx be lifted? And when Greyback dies, is it possible all the people he made werewolves would be restored to normality? MizStorge From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:00:52 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:00:52 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak knows best Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134131 Here's an interpretation of the whole Is Snape evil? quandary I haven't seen mentioned yet, but then I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts, so forgive me if I'm echoing something already said: You may not trust Harry's assessment of Snape because he is supposedly biased by his emotions etc etc... but what about Buckbeak's assessment of Snape? He mounts a ferocious attack on our greasy haired friend, screeching as he is never screeched before. Remember JKR saying that certain things in the POA movie gave her goose bumps because they anticipated the later books? One was surely Buckbeak's attack on Werewolf Lupin, which Cuaron added on his own initiative. In that instance, Buckbeak saved Harry and Hermione from a terrible fate, and no doubt he did the same in Chapter 28 of HBP, otherwise why would JKR get goosebumps? Buckbeak throughout the series has been a symbol of animal nobility and wisdom, the one who bears Sirius to freedom. He is also presented as a shrewd judge of character (see the incident with Draco in POA). And there's nothing like sheer animal instinct to cut through all the emotionalism and over-thinking humans (including Dumbledore, see part 1 of JKR's interview on mugglenet) are prone to. Think about it; how do you react when you bring home someone who seems just fine, but your dog starts to growl the minute he sees him? So my money's on Buckbeak to be the one who sees the situation most clearly, and takes the appropriate action. As Hagrid once said, "Beaky, yeh clever boy...." Inkling From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:04:16 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:04:16 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134132 > I thought that too at first but when it all makes sense when you think > about it. Voldemort's plan was to trick Harry to go to the ministry, > but when Snape showed up Harry was caught by Umbrage so Snape figured > the plan had failed, it never occurred to him that Harry would manage > to escape and make it all the way to the ministry. With the plan > canceled anyway it couldn't hurt to tell the Order of the Phoenix what > Harry said, in fact he had to if he wanted to remain a spy. Dozens of > people heard Harry talk to Snape about padfoot and sooner or later The > Order would hear about it and wonder why Snape didn't tell them > immediately. > > Snape is evil zgirnius: Actually, by Dumbledore's account at the end of OotP, Snape claims he IMMEDIATELY contacted HQ, and discovered that Sirius was there. (Which he was, LV was messing with Harry's mind...) I wonder if this claim is provable. DD does not explicitly state there were other witnesses. But we know later when Snape recontacted 12 Grimmauld Place, that other Order members were present. It would certainly be risky for Snaep to claim this unless he really did check in on Sirius. Snape then kept an eye on the situation. He knew Harry and Hermione wnet into the Forbidden Forest. When they did not return for quite some time, Snape *then* contacted 12 Grimmauld Place again, letting then know his suspicions that Harry had gone to the Ministry in search of Sirius. One could make the argument that Snape waited so long that he *expected* his notification to the Order came too late, but this is not factually established by the ttext anywhere. JKR has in my opinion done a brilliant job with Snape. We really don't know. Really. Only JKR knows... --zgirnius, who does hope Snape is at least not ESE... From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 22 15:07:43 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:07:43 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak knows best In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134133 > Buckbeak throughout the series has been a symbol of animal nobility > and wisdom, the one who bears Sirius to freedom. He is also > presented as a shrewd judge of character (see the incident with > Draco in POA). And there's nothing like sheer animal instinct to > cut through all the emotionalism and over-thinking humans (including > Dumbledore, see part 1 of JKR's interview on mugglenet) are prone > to. Think about it; how do you react when you bring home someone > who seems just fine, but your dog starts to growl the minute he sees > him? > > So my money's on Buckbeak to be the one who sees the situation most > clearly, and takes the appropriate action. As Hagrid once > said, "Beaky, yeh clever boy...." > > Inkling It could also be that Buckbeak sees Harry in danger and comes out to protect him. As far as I know, Buckbeak has had no contact with Snape and has never exchanged the look & bow procedure that Harry & Buckbeak have had. There is a history between the two of them, whereas we don't know if Snape & Buckbeak have even met. All Buckbeak sees is that Harry & Snape are throwing curses at each other - and Beaky KNOWS Harry - he doesn't know Snape. colebiancardi From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jul 22 15:11:39 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:11:39 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: <20050722131443.19598.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: > Milz wrote: > > Possible, but we have no canon evidence of such an arrangement, do we? > > Let's not forget, Snape is acting as a spy and possibly as a double > agent--if Draco is correct. If Snape is a double agent, his life is > in danger no matter what the final outcome is. According to "The Art > of War" by Sun Tzu, you can use double agents---but once they have > served their purposes, you must eliminate them because you can never > be certain where their loyalities lie. Snape killing Dumbledore can > be viewed as having served his purpose for Voldemort---Snape can't go > back to the OoP after doing something like that can he? If he were to > leave the DEs, he would be killed. Moreover, he now has the Ministry > and the OoP after him. So, his survival prospects are dim, imo. > > Milz > > My reply: > > And yet I am positive this will not be an issue. You really think she is just going to kill off Snape without any answers? Without any thoughts? I very seriously doubt this... > > There is a possibility that all of these answers lay in Dumbledores pensieve something that Harry will likely have to access to find out more information on the Horcruxes. > > Melanie As a spy, Snape is a betrayer. That's the nature of a spy: they must deceive and betray the "other side". As a double agent, Snape is a double betrayer. Betrayers in classic literature don't get very far, lifespan-wise. That, however, doesn't mean that Rowling won't give us the motivations for Snape's actions. But something tells me, Snape won't survive the series--especially in light of Rowling's concern for her young readership's (see the interview parts about Draco and her opinion of the "savior" mentality of some of her fans). I agree that Dumbledore's penseive holds many clues. As does Snapes. If Snape left any of his belongings in his Hogwarts quarters, they will help Harry immensely. Milz From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Fri Jul 22 15:21:39 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:21:39 -0000 Subject: Snape is not evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rtb333" wrote: > I think it is time for a reread of HBP for some people. It has been > stated a number of times, but every Snape!ESE theorist is running with > their Harry-Goggles on. > > First off: > Snape had the perfect opportunity to kill(or not heal) Dumbledor. > DD comments that he would have died of the injuries the ring's hex > gave him if not for Professor Snape. Not to mention the fact that Snape apparently has *not* warned LV his horcruxes are in danger. For what it's worth I don't think SS and DD *planned* for the former to kill the latter - I just think that, given the situation they were all in, DD chose Malfoy and SS's lives over his own - and pleaded with SS to do the same. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:21:16 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:21:16 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak knows best In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134137 Colebiancardi wrote: > It could also be that Buckbeak sees Harry in danger and comes out to > protect him. AH! But if Snape is really on the good side and sworn to protect Harry, ****Why is he mounting a vicious, possibly fatal attack on him***???? Sorry, but I've been wanting to ask that for days! Inkling From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:23:09 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:23:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's ability to trust his instincts, and ESE!Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134138 I am about halfway through my re-read of HBP and it has become even more obvious that a huge theme of this book is that Harry has a much greater ability to trust his instincts than before. In the past books, the readers were "mislead" (setting up great surprise endings) only because the CHARACTERS were mislead. HRH were convinced that Snape was the bad guy in PS/SS, so we went along with it. In CoS they were sure that the Heir of Slytherin was someone like Malfoy, so we thought so too, and when it wasn't, I for one didn't even think of the obvious - and I sure didn't think Ginny was involved. Everyone thought Sirius Black was a traitor and murderer, so we assumed they were right. And so on. But in HBP, we meet a much more mature Harry. He even takes his concerns to adults, though in the end this doesn't help. All along Ron and Hermione and even Lupin think his suspicions of Malfoy and Snape are ill-founded, but he ignores them. And it turns out Malfoy was indeed plotting something awful (it's not clear that he's an actual DE - maybe DD's murder was intended to be his initiation). This is really the first time in the books that some mystery really was exactly as it appeared. It was Malfoy all along, just as Harry suspected. I think this is a VERY significant departure from previous books, where we are lead down the wrong path in order to create a twist. Because this theme seems so significant to me, this leads me to conclude that Harry is right about Snape as well. It fits in better with our Mature!Harry about to embark on his destined journey to destroy Voldemort. It makes more sense for this new Harry to go into things with the ability to trust his instincts. Now, what about Harry trusting the HBP? If Snape is actually Good, then we see that Harry even has correct instincts about Snape, when he doesn't know that it's Snape. If Snape is ESE, then we see that Harry was wrong to "befriend" the HBP in his mind, but he was very right about Snape himself. Dilemma! I can imagine an incredible scene in which Snape has to convince a VERY reluctant Harry that he had to kill DD because of his orders, and Harry will have to pause when he remembers how he was forced to promise to make DD drink the potion in the cave. Perhaps that will be the culmination of Harry's maturity - the ability to listen to Snape, despite his hatred, desire for revenge, and absolute certainty that Snape is ESE, and put aside his emotions and consider what he is being told and make the decision to believe Snape. This might be Harry's final act of Growing Up just prior to heading off to kill LV, possibly with Snape's help. I think that will be an amazing conclusion to the story, and I welcome it. (I can also see such a set-up ending with a shocking, mind-twisting betrayal by Snape, who is about to AK Harry but then Wormtail has to defend him because of the life-debt.) But when I read HBP, I can easily see Snape being truly ESE on the basis that it fits in with the theme of Harry finally being able to trust his instincts - but I can also see it as a huge step in his progression, which would actually culminate with his ability to trust a Good!Snape. - davenclaw From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 11:49:40 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:49:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore -- portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134139 Christine wrote: > Just thinking - Dumbledore has been both suspended (CoS) and > sacked (OotP). While I can't argue that DD was a *former* headmaster > in Cos, he definately, for all intents and purposes, was *former* in > OotP - however, his portrait did not appear (as far as we know) David: Did anyone else flashback, upon seeing DD sleeping in his portrait, to his comment to Harry in PS explaining that death was like going to sleep after a very long day. Even though his death was so sad, I was hoping he was enjoying a good rest after his very, very long day. I hope this isn't the last we hear of him in whatever form. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 22 15:32:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:32:57 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > "curlyhornedsnorkack" wrote: > > > So Snape killing Dumbledore was actually > > good for the OOTP because Snape kept his cover. > > That just doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't seem in character that > Dumbledore would ask anyone to split his soul and become a murderer > under any circumstances. And if Snape did discover something useful > about Voldemort who in the Order could he tell about it, who would > believe him? Pippin: I don't think Dumbledore intended to die. I think he trusted that Snape's AK would not be strong enough to kill him, and I do believe it wasn't. AK victims die with their eyes open and they simply collapse on the spot. They don't get blasted into the air. The curse failed, IMO, ,just as Harry's attempt to crucio Bella did, because Snape didn't really mean it. And what of the vow? Snape agreed to take on the task that the Dark Lord had ordered Draco to perform. Narcissa says quite plainly that she thinks Draco's mission, as ordered by the Dark Lord, is to fail. I think Dumbledore tried to fake his own death and didn't quite bring it off. The liquid in the basin was a slow poison and it caught up with him on the way down. In that case, it would have been Dumbledore himself who revealed the truth to Harry, when it was safe, that is, when all the horcruxes had been located and destroyed thanks to the information Snape is now in a position to get. Meanwhile it would be much too dangerous for Harry to know the truth about Snape -- his mind is too open, too vulnerable to Voldemort, so it's essential that Harry believe whatever the Order wants Voldemort to think. Pippin From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:35:01 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:35:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134141 DD would have wanted SOMEONE to be there to > > make sure Harry had all of the tools he needs to do what he needs to do. > > [snip] > > > > I'm just still falling on the side that says that Snape's loyalty is > > not to DD. > > > Oaksong: > > You may have shot yourself in the foot a bit here. You mention SOMEONE > in the first paragraph above, and then refuse to accept the > possibility that Snape is the someone. OK- maybe so. BUT DD knew that Harry wouldn't trust Snape. If DD and Snape set up the killing, and set it up for it to be in front of Harry, then wouldn't DD know this would do nothing but increase Harry's mistrust of Snape? And so, wouldn't DD let SOMEONE know what was going on with Snape, and that he COULD be trusted, and that he was the one to lead Harry? Because surely, DD knew human nature enough to know that once Snape killed him, it would severely dent his standing in the Order. So, unless someone in the Order does know that the whole thing was a set up and isn't saying anything to counter all of the accusations that are now flying at Snape, then no, I don't buy that Snape is the one that is supposed to help Harry. And since everyone in the Order is currently buying Harry's side of what happened, I don't see Snape living through walking into Grimmauld Place. From angellima at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 22 11:41:55 2005 From: angellima at xtra.co.nz (Angel Lima) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:41:55 +1200 Subject: Lily and potions or charms skills References: Message-ID: <007c01c58eb2$d14a5680$7da737d2@Angel> No: HPFGUIDX 134142 Chys: I'm sorry but there are too many messags to wade through to see if anyone has brought this up- but I want to know what the significance is of Lily being good at potions? Slughorn mentioned that. It seems like the only thing we really learn about her in HBP, so I have to ask about it. I always thought that she was good at charms and suddenly it's potions. Was that a fannon thing, or was it truly canon? Reply: This struck me as odd also. It was charms previously, this was the first we'd heard of excellence in Potions but then we'd have to assume she was good in all subjects like Hermione. But Slughorn did say. "Charming girl." Which does imply something huge related to charms. Also, just about everyone says Lily and James...whereas other couples are usually addressed by the male partner first eg Arthur and Molly Weasley etc Angel From cbowker at ufl.edu Fri Jul 22 15:49:48 2005 From: cbowker at ufl.edu (Cynthia Bowker) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:49:48 -0400 Subject: Two questions from a lurker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E1159C.8080603@ufl.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 134143 I finished the book a couple of days ago, and I'm greatly enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and theories. I need to read the book a second time before I can post anything intelligent; I'm terrible about absorbing details. But I do have two quick questions, and a couple of comments. Someone already mentioned this, and I don't think I saw a response to it. Many people are theorizing that Harry or his scar might be a Horcrux. I have a hard time with that one, since Voldemort couldn't even bear to touch Harry in SS. That being the case, how could his soul reside in Harry? In reading all these posts, I keep seeing things like ESESnape and ESELupin. What the heck does ESE stand for? I can kinda get the meaning from the context of the discussions, but I'm still not clear on it. Just a couple of general comments - I got a serious Spider-Man vibe when Harry told Ginny that they couldn't be together. I'm not saying I minded it at all; I would expect nothing less gallant from Harry :) That being said, I hope Ginny pulls a Mary-Jane and tells Harry that she wants to be with him, and he can stuff his gallantry. I *love* that Lupin and Tonks got together. Lupin's a favorite of mine, and I'm glad something's going right for him for a change. Back to lurker-land... Cynthia From gwennie357 at msn.com Fri Jul 22 12:29:56 2005 From: gwennie357 at msn.com (Wendi Williams) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:29:56 -0400 Subject: Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134144 SSSJ: I was wondering what new light HBP sheds on the use of the > Patronus and relationships. Specifically if the new form of Tonks > patronus is a > werewolf which indicates how she feels about Lupin. What do the > different Patroni that we see in the DA sections of book 5 tell us > about the relationships of the other characters. Just curious to > see if anyone else had thought about this and what they thought it > might mean. I think it must have something to do with a person's fondest memory. Because you have to concentrate so hard on what makes you happiest to produce a patronus, it makes sense that the form it takes would have something to do with someone or something you love. For instance, Harry couldn't think of anything happy enough in PoA to create a Patronus (Ron and Hermione just wouldn't cut it as his happiest memory), so when he made the switch to a vague recollection of his parents, the patronus instantly took the form of a stag, representing James, someone Harry loves and misses dearly. So in my opinion, Tonks's patronus changed because her happiest memory changed. We don't know what happened before Lupin's rejection -- they could have been together for a brief time, or maybe her happiest memory is simply of falling in love with him. And I don't necessarily think her patronus was literally "weak" -- I think Snape was just saying that to call her out on the fact that he knew exactly what her patronus represented, and express his distaste for Remus. Does make me wonder why Hermione's is an otter -- maybe a happy trip to the zoo in her childhood? Maybe Ronnie-kins reminds her of one? ;o) gwennie From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:55:09 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:55:09 -0000 Subject: Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's > potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape too, > who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense if > Harry reminded him of Snape? No, I don't think it's bizarre at all. You have to remember Sluggie's first priority. Slughorn surrounds himself by people who go on to excel and who really do something with their lives. He wouldn't choose Snape. Hold on, don't go after me for that, and let me explain. Sluggie somehow chooses people who wind up in power. He chooses talent, good looks, etc. And certainly, even I will say that Snape has enormous talent. But what did he do with it? He does whatever, then becomes a teacher at Hogwarts. Just a plain old teacher. (I'm talking about what the outside world will see him doing, not his double/triple/quintuple agent stuff). That is something Slughorn did on his own. Nothing powerful there. No sparkly pineapples or whatever it was. Lilly however, went on to do whatever she did. But she and James were by all accounts very popular. And powerful. Lilly was pretty, good at potions, and very popular. Whatever they did for a living, they left their child with a vault full of gold and silver. Sluggie would like that. Lilly was one of the ones Slughorn collected. So, it makes sense that seeing her eyes in Harry's face, Sluggie would remember her. Then make Harry good at potions, and it's like one of his favorite pets is there, or the pet's child is there. He wouldn't compare Harry to Snape, not because of the talent levels there, but simply because Harry is Lilly's child. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:59:54 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:59:54 -0000 Subject: Best yet! Plus Harry the horcrux, and who does Snape love? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134146 psyche wrote: > My overal thoughts on HBP - I think it's the best yet by far zgirnius: Couldn't agree with you more there! psyche: > What I'm currently very interested in is the question of who Snape > loves (Jo has said we'll learn more about this in book 7, soit must > be significant). My own theory is that this is key to his motivation. > There is good reason, I think, to believe that he was in love with > Lily. psyche again: >I felt that he agreed because he couldn't > bear to see her cry. On pg 38, "Snape said nothing. He looked away > from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he > couldn't not pretend not to hear her." I now think I was barking up > the wrong tree, though. Perhaps it was affection for Draco that > changed his mind. zgirnius again: You know, I'm really glad you put both the Narcissa and Lily theories in the same post. I've been reading the other Lily/Snape posts, but was personally very surprised/moved by Snape's reaction to Narcissa in Chapter 2 as well. Reading the two side-by-side I have just been struck by an idea about why Snape has a strong reaction to Cissy. Obviously they have probably been friendly to some extent. Sytherins, part of the same gang, etc. But maybe what really gets under Snape's skin is the similarity of Narcissa's situation to Lily's? He's watching a distraught mother pleading for the life of her only son...hmmm. Has he seen a similar scene play out in the past? Is he imagining how it might have? From s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 13:33:00 2005 From: s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk (rehtse) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:33:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A newbie's theories on Snape and DD's death. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134147 Hi Im Esther I have been reading everyones posts with great interest. Ill dive straight in: I do not believe that DD death was an assisted suicide but that he intended to die. Brothergib quotes: `Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness ` Albus Dumbledore OOTP p718 The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleadingSeverus.please.' HBP p556 And then says: If you still don't believe it, consider this. Would Albus Dumbledore ever plead for his life? No he would not. EstherS agrees: Whatever faults he may have DD has a strong character, pleading on his deathbed is not in his nature. And why did DD use the binding spell on Harry. He could have frozen Draco and then utilized the time to tell Harry how to escape. Harry had already obeyed him in the cave there was no reason for DD to suspect he wouldn't do so now. I believe that Harry was there as a witness. LV has already invaded Harrys mind several times and according to DD LV blocked the connection on purpose to stop Harry seeing into his mind not because he was unable to connect anymore. Harry was petrified both as a protection and to prevented him from interfering in the outcome. He had to be a passive witness to DDs death and the fact that Snape killed him. Quite possibly the pleading was just show for LVs benefit. To cite Brothergib again: By allowing Snape to kill him, Dumbledore will have ensured that Voldemort trusts and reveres Snape above all his other Death Eaters. When the time comes, this will place Snape in the most powerful position to help Harry. EstherS concurs: Snape doesnt have to be trusted by the Order if, rather than acting just as a spy, he is proactive in protecting Harry from within the DE. JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never been owned by anyone but Dumbledore. You will notice that when Harry goes back in the Pensieve in this book, Fawkes is never there, and no, I am sorry, not in this book, I take that back. When Harry has previously seen the study with a different headmaster he saw it with Dippet and Fawkes was not there then. Fawkes is Dumbledore's possession, not a Hogwarts possession. EstherS says: I believe Fawkes will be used to prove Snape's loyalty. Originally elements of this story were meant to be in CoS and in that book DD emphasizes that if Fawkes comes to someones assistance it must be because they have shown him great loyalty. Why did DD trust Snape? As Harry hasnt been told we cant know but I am sure it was due to Snapes feeling for Lily. Im sure that Snape had a crush on Lily and although she didnt reciprocate these feelings she tried to be kind to him. Snape does not seem to be easily influenced or a weak personality so I am beginning to wonder why he ever joined the Death Eaters in the first place. If you examine what we know of the other DE: Lucius is a vicious bigot, Barty Crouch was the teenage rebel going to extremes to show his father, Peter Petigrew (with others like Crabbe and Goyle) desperately needed to follow someone, and feel in with the crowd. And Bellatrix she is just an LV groupie. In contrast Snape is a loner, convinced that he was superior to everyone else. Why would he join the DE? My theory is that some momentous event such as Lily rejection drove him to join the DE in a rage of blind hatred and revenge. He truly didnt realize that LV was going to hunt down James and Lily and I imagine LV saving Lily would have been in the nature of a surprise present for Snape as a faithful follower not something they had worked out beforehand. The shock of Lily and James death brought Snape to his senses. KJ says of chap 2: I think that this chapter sets up the story line for most of the book. It shows us a completely different side of Snape. We were given the impression that he had no social graces whatsoever. This is not the case. EstherS says: Snape is one of the most complicated characters in this book. He ranges between unpleasant to positively hateful with the members of the Order but puts himself in mortal danger to help them. He never defends himself against their accusations nor does he try to ingratiate himself by explaining his actions. And although he seem much more at home with his Death Eater friends he is betraying them for DD. I found this scene touching because despite Bellatrixs dislike and suspicion they both show Snape a certain respect. I dont think that Snape is in love with Narcissa but he is fond of her and she looks to him as a protector. Snape is tender and caring in this chapter and yes, even noble. As I stated previously I do believe DD is dead, no polyjuice or body-swaps or fake deaths. I didnt think JK would reference other metaphors (particularly considering the Matrix debacle) until Inkling said: JKR's oft quoted remark that if people knew she was a Christian, they could figure out what's coming in the series. EstherS: Although I agree with Inklings analysis that JKs faith influences her belief in loves conquering I would add that this fact is well publicized so no big surprise. Another defining characteristic of Christianity is the resurrection. Like Amy I found parallels with Aslan in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe which was also a story written by a believing Christian and very influential when JK (and I) was young. This also fits with the fact that both DDs animal companion and his patronus are a Phoenix, a bird that dies then arises from the flames. Mira says: in some interpretations of the Bible Jesus actively encouraged Judas to betray him Esther: I think that the argument was because Snape felt DD was asking too much by asking Snape to kill him, either because it would endanger his soul or because of the emotional strain or both. It is also interesting that JK has a thing with damaging peoples hands: very a la Star Wars. Peter Pettigrews silver hand seemed and almost exact copy of Anakins. Maybe JK believes that DD, like Ben Kenobi, will be stronger after his death. EstherS A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle. ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From npod4291 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 12:34:50 2005 From: npod4291 at yahoo.com (npod4291) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:34:50 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die In-Reply-To: <008701c58ea6$2bda0170$7ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Actually, I am convinced of it. I will be completely surprised if he lives. > He will die to protect someone after he has finished LV. There will still > be DE's in the fray (I don't envision a one-on-one between LV & HP). HP > saving Draco from Lucius would be interesting - if, of course, LM ever gets > out of Azkaban. > > Besides, it is the only way JKR won't be hounded to insanity for more HP > books. I don't know, I can't possibly see Harry dying. We are forgetting, despite the large number of adults that read these books, as evidence by this site, this is still a KIDS book/series. Harry dying would be the kind of stuff that leave scars on a child. I know that people will say that DD dying would have the same effect, but I'm not quite sure if thats true. DD was obviously liked, but he's not the hero, the one that we all love. If you think about if from Harry's stand point, DD had to die. As long as DD was alive, Harry would never stand on his own two feet, the same way that Obi- Won had to die, the same way that Gandalf had to appear to have died. This mentors could only teach so much, and then they were holding the students back because they were always there to protect them. npod4291 From desastreuse at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 16:19:11 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:19:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134149 missy writes: > Because surely, DD knew human nature enough to know that > once Snape killed him, it would severely dent his standing in the > Order. So, unless someone in the Order does know that the whole > thing was a set up and isn't saying anything to counter all of the > accusations that are now flying at Snape, then no, I don't buy > that > Snape is the one that is supposed to help Harry. > > And since everyone in the Order is currently buying Harry's side > of > what happened, I don't see Snape living through walking into > Grimmauld Place. It is entirely possible, however, that DD stored some memories for use after his death, specifically the memories of his conversations with Snape about DD's own death, the Vow, and what to do after he has killed DD. I don't think it's very reasonale to believe that Dumbledore--knowing he was not well--would not have made arrangements ensuring that Harry will have the information and the details he needs for success after DD's death. To me, it is conceivable that DD would leave Harry so vulnerable, especially when he knows there is information that Harry will need if he is to be successful. desastreuse From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 16:24:20 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:24:20 -0400 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) References: <1122044936.1885.64018.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c58ed9$d1113360$7fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134150 SSSusan: Just picking this one little bit of Lupinlore's post to respond to. I also felt this, to some degree. Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points and just got them out of the way? Angel Lima said: "I had been trying to bite my tongue on this. But yes! YES BING BING BING YES! HBP was a dastard disappointment. I remember putting the book away, shaking my head and picking it up again to see if there were any pages left unread. It felt as if JKR spent more time putting to rest rumours and miscontruals than on what's to come. The red herring on HBP was an utter shocker too, I remember feeling disgusted by that and the lack of Sirius angst. Still, it had its moments." Well, I'm so glad I'm not the only one that feels that way, although it wasn't just chapter 2. I thought the whole book was rather a long list of answer questions, fleshed out responses to things she couldn't answer in interviews, with a little story - a very little IMO - thrown in for good luck. I didn't find the HBP pronouncement particularly shocking as it had passed through my mind how upset HP would be if it turned out to be Snape's book. I knew for certain when Snape showed up in the bathroom, knew exactly what had happened to Malfoy and wanted to see the book. I thought whole Slughorn-giving-Harry-Snapes-old-book bit a tad ridiculous though, in all honesty. Snape may not have been teaching Potions that year but he is still a potions master and I don't care what anyone says, would not have left his book in that room. In fact, I find it very difficult to believe that book was ever out of his office. The whole explanation about underage wizards doing magic outside of school is still a bit odd, don't you think? Harry was caught out when Dobby smashed the pudding because Harry is the only wizard in that house so it must be him. But F&G can do magic at home and not get caught because the ministry can't tell who in the house did the magic? Ron and Hermione's Lumos' at the QWC were not noticed because there were too many wizards to count. Why, though, was there not a peck of owls when Arthur Weasley blew apart the Dursley's living room, and later fixed Ton Tongued Dudley (GOF)? Why was there not a herd of owls, and ministry wizards as well, the night the Advance Guard showed up to take Harry away from Privet Drive? That time, in particular, I would think the ministry would be watching 4 Privet Drive like a hawk trying to catch Harry again. Oops, magic going on there better swoop in. It just doesn't add up..to me anyway. One of my favourite moments, though - well really, anything to do with F&G is a favourite - is Fred's left buttock. Of course another is Ginny's absolute reaming out of Ron when he and Harry walked in on Ginny and Dean kissing. And of course her "A Pygmy Puff" response to Harry's question about Ron's tattoo. CathyD DuffyPoo From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 16:30:36 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:30:36 -0400 Subject: How much will it weigh? References: <1122044936.1885.64018.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c58eda$b1175c00$7fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134151 Oaksong said: "I'm betting about 10 pounds. Things to do: 1. Find Horcruxes 2. Stay alive 3. Get a job as a clerk in the Weasley's shop 4. Fight with the Ministry 5. Deal with the other characters 6. Work with the OOTP 7. Fight Voldemort 10. Win a quidditch match? 11. Who gets redeemed? Draco? Snape? 12. Will Harry get DD's shade out of Snape's wand? Maybe it will come out in 2 volumes..... And will Dan be too old to play Harry by the time it's released?" Dan will definitely be too old to play Harry, he's quite getting there now. Now, before the list-elves chuck me out... I thought there was just a post here that the last Quidditch match in HBP was JKR's last time she said she would ever write a Quidditch match? That should cut your 10 lbs down to 9 lbs 15.75 oz. Mind you, with the way Scrimgeour is running the MoM...I think Fighting the Ministry might take up a pound or two all on its own. CathyD DuffyPoo From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 16:32:23 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:32:23 -0000 Subject: Whoever Snape is fooling... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134152 If Snape is really a DE, then he's fooled DD all those years. If Snape is really working for DD, then he's fooled LV all those last years. If Snape is really just on his own side, trying (in good Slytherin fashion) to simply save his hide, then he's fooled *both* LV and DD! So whoever Snape is fooling, he's GOOD at fooling people!! And whoever he is fooling, nobody, neither Harry nor us, should take whatever he does or says at face value... I know this post isn't advancing any theory or anything. I just had to express my utter admiration for someone who has been, for several years, fooling either one or both of the greatest Legilimenses in the world. I won't take a stand in Snape, because JKR deliberately keeps us in the dark IMO, but I can't help but be amazed by the acting capabilities, and the sheer talent in Occlumency, that Snape has been demonstrating. I also wonder WHEN he started fooling anyone. More particularly, was it before or after he joined the DEs the first time around...? Del From JodyE50 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 12:53:20 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:53:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fifth Years Message-ID: <193.4439b608.30124640@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134153 In a message dated 7/22/2005 7:14:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: > > We have been told that lessons were suspended, examinations > postponed... > > Pupils were obviously leaving early and the Hogwarts Express was > scheduled to leave an hour after the funeral. Dumbledore's funeral > would be held fairly soon after his death so there was no time to > reinstate the examinations. > > Also, we learned in OOTP that OWL exams take two weeks. I think that DD's death happened before the exams were to have begun, and the students only remained for a few more days until the funeral. The year ended early. It would have been nice though if JKR had thrown in a few words about the OWLs specifically. For example, "all exams were canceled. The fifth year students didn't know whether to be relieved or disappointed that their OWLs were postponed." One sentence would have ended the confusion. JodyE50 From michael.genesis at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:10:13 2005 From: michael.genesis at gmail.com (Michael McHenry) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:10:13 -0400 Subject: Hermione & Ron... meh SHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ff5b99205072209105adc390b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134154 casmir2012 wrote: > She receives a sense of purpose in tending to (what I call) Ron's > deficiencies and reminds me very much of Molly. In fact, > there were a couple times that Hermione shadowed Molly's > behavior towards Ron. I have often thought that Hermione's interactions with Ron paralled Molly's with Arthur. Ron can easily grow up to be a carbon copy of his father. Harry wants to be like his own father, and misses the mother he barely had. Plenty of comparisons were drawn between Ginny and Lily in HBP. Do these characters absolutely positively have to mate with copies of their mothers? Ron and Luna will make a much more interesting (and less condescending) couple. My deepest hope is that JKR does not make the appearance of pairing these kids of at the age of 17 with their "One True Love" for eternity. R/Hr makes a fine teenage romance. I'm hoping they grow out of it before book seven completes. The rest can be left up to the imagination of the reader. Of course nothing could be more fun or hard to pull of than a Hr/Draco ship. -mgm (not-so-secret H/Hr shipper) From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Fri Jul 22 16:00:21 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:00:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Pirate Ginny (Something is not right) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134155 Hi, I've always thought R and H would get together, at least since COS. And, I've been waiting for Harry to find his soul mate, something he sorely needs. "paul_terzis" wrote: > 1) Harry Potter is very very mild almost in nirvana. Ceddrik's death > resulted in OOTP(angry) Harry. Siriou's (who happens to be a closest > person to Harry) death reesulted in HBP Harry. Is this logical to you? But, Sirius death isn't the only thing affecting him. He heard the prophecy and is walking around a "marked man" as he thinks until his liberating discussion with DD. I see his focus and seeming maturity about LV as being a product of his knowlege of the prophecy. Also, Harry is a reserved person about his personal feelings. JKR has often omitted what he is thinking about himself. > > 2) Hermione my favourite character is another example. Suddenly she > ignores Harry's warnings. She and Ron always carefully consider Harry's warnings, at least the first few times he brings it up. But, they give good reasons for doubting him. After a while, they just dismiss him as being obsessed with Draco. > > 3) After reading the scene where AD met for the first time with LV I > was really puzzled. My God LV as 11 year old boy without any guidance > and training already controls animals and is adept in wandless magic. > HP is destined to fight him and what AD is doing to help Harry. He > just shows him memories from the past. And what about training? Just > the scholl stuff. Is that logical to you? I was disappointed to realize in this book that Harry IS many of the things Snape has always called him. Mediocre student, yep. Escaped from LV through luck and more talented friends, yep. > > 4) Harry's actions and prowess in magic is also a confusing issue. He > is totally kicked in the ass in HBP. He is almost inept in duelling > when in OOTP shines against multiple DE's. Do you also want to comment > on the scene in the train when Draco flattened him literally? I did think Harry spent way too much time under his Invisibility cloak frozen and helpless. Harry fall in love suddenly with Ginny. Comments anyone? Harry's awareness of Ginny has been growing since she gave him that chocolate egg in the library in OOTP. Our awareness of her chutzpah and humor have been growing with Harry's. Hermione seems to keep her crush well under control even > until the beginning of the HBP. Suddenly from the composed, logical > and expert to the relationship psychology Hermione she degenerate into > the HBP!Hermione (almost the exact opposite of her previous self). Yes > hormones and Jealousy can alter the human behaviour but to such an > extent (a total transformation of character in such a short time). Is > that logical? Maybe to you is logical but for me it isn't. > But, until Lavender (love the comment that Ron sees her as simply a girl with a mouth) gets his attention. All the times Ron's attention is caught by a female before, there's been no threat to Hermione: Madame Rosmerta, whichever Patil girl he went to the ball with, Fleur, I mean come on! But Lavender seems like a threat to her exclusive claim (unstated to Ron, but taken for granted by H) on Ron, at least at first. You notice, once she realizes (before Ron does) that LavLav isn't really a match for him, she calms down and just looks superior or tolerant when she sees L and R together. HogwartsMom, still grieving almost as if a REAL person died. From EvilNuff at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 16:11:15 2005 From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:11:15 -0000 Subject: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134156 Kathi wrote: >> JK Rowling: I touched on that the last time I gave a reading from >> Phoenix at the Edinburgh Book Festival and I said that I had never >> been asked why didn't Voldemort die when he attacked Harry. > I think this may (IMHO) support the theory that Harry's scar is a > horcrux. (Now, if we know that James is a pureblood, is it possible > that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor and if so, would that further > supoort the scar-as-horcrux theory?) I disagree, I don't see any support to the Harry is a Horcrux theory whatsoever in the above statement. JKR simply means Horcruxes kept Voldemort alive, which they would do whether Harry is or is not a Horcrux. Ultimately the Harry is a Horcrux theory comes down to this for me: If Harry is a Horcrux then he has to die *before* Voldemort so Voldemort will be killable. There has been, to date, no forshadowing, inferences, hints, or anything that anyone other than Harry will kill Voldemort so I consider this highly unlikely. Further, while I agree the series has had a lot of self sacrifice themes, I cannot see what is at its core a childrens series ending on such an unhappy note. Personally I cannot see any possible ending for Harry other than Harry + Ginny living happily every after. EvilNuff From scb1066 at adelphia.net Fri Jul 22 15:56:23 2005 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:56:23 -0000 Subject: One more reason why Snape is Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134157 "Julia" wrote: > While reading HBP I was constantly wondering why on earth has it > been called Harry Potter and THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE?? I cound't see > how the true identity of HBP can have possible relevance to the > plot. When it turns out that Snape is HBP I still wasn't sure why > the whole book is called HBP - apart from the fact that we learn > that Snape used to call himself HBP when he was at school we dont > get any new information (we already know that he is very good at > potions and it's not a big kind of shock that he invents new spells > when we knew he was very good student!!) >SNIP< > Now, until the 6th book we were all (almost all :D) under the > impression that we have to trust Snape. All canon evidences were > point out that although Snape is mean and cruel he is on the good > side (DD trust him, he's spying for the Order, Harry's suspitions > always turned out to be wrong etc) And then comes 6th book with him > in the title and he turns out to be evil and kills DD! What would > be a point in naming the 6th book HP and HBP (HP and SNAPE) when the > biggest surprise within this book will turn out to be false in the > next book?? >SNIP< > Can't express it in the better way, sorry :D Hope you understand > what I mean littlegreenpartyhats replies: I understand exactly what you mean and you make a very good point. Rowling says on her website that in the distant past, HBP was the possible title of CoS. She describes it as a strand of the overall plot which could be used in a whole variety of ways. She considered weaving it into CoS, but she eventually removed all traces of the HBP storyline from Book 2 and said: "It really didn't fit there, though; it was not part of the story of the basilisk and Riddle's diary, and before long I accepted that it would be better to do it justice in book six. " Who knows what she means by "plot strand"..... But, I conjecture the HBP plot strand which could be used in a number of different ways is essentially: 1. Harry gets a book; 2. is helped from handwritten notes contained in the book, at first in a very benign way and later in darker ways; and 3. uses what he learned from the notes to solve a major obstacle in the story. In book 6, Harry uses the notes to win the FF potion, uses the FF potion to get Slughorn's memory and uses the memory to confirm the Horcrux plan. But, in Book 2 it could have been used for something different. For all we know, the "HBP" in CoS may have referred to Riddle instead of Snape. But, if Rowling always intended Snape to be the HBP, it works much better in book six for the reasons you just said. The HBP title is significant for not only the plot strand but also for the fact that he was the traitor causing a major shift in the story. The rest of Rowling's quotes about the HBP/CoS relationship make me more convinced about the Harry is (or was) a Horcrux. "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'." The discovery he makes in book two is that Voldemort "put a piece of himself" into him, and this foreshadows his discovery of the Horcruxes in Book 6. Of course, Voldemort may have deduced that the seventh piece of his soul was transferred to Harry at Godric's Hollow, which may be the reason Harry was necessary at his rebirth. Perhaps he took the piece of his soul back at the rebirthing ritual, which is why Dumbledore had the gleam of triumph in his eye. Wild speculation... > 1. Was DD really pleading for death? or anything connected with it? > maybe he has something else on his mind? He adresses Snape 'Severus' > the moment he enter the scene - and as Harry noted his voice has > changed... I really dont know what does it mean, anyone?? I dont think there's anything beyond face value in this scene. I think DD realized at that point that he was mistaken in his trust of Snape, and in the end tried to plead with him to not betray the Order. I agree that he wasn't pleading for his life. > 2. Why Snape have to be informed by FF that there are DE in the > castle? If he knew the plan (as he said in the 2nd chapter) he > should be aware? Why wasn't he patroling corridors like others? Snape knew the goal of the plan but not the details. He kept trying to find out how Malfoy was going to accomplish it, but he never did. > 3. If he told Narcissia and Bellatrix that he knew the plan why was > he pretending not to know about it anything while speaking with > Draco?? I think all he knew was Malfoy was ordered to try to kill Dumbledore. How Malfoy did it was no concern of LV. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:45:59 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:45:59 -0000 Subject: Absolutely loved the book - - but.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134158 I was very disappointed that Tonks' charachter (and her special skills) was not developed and put in use for something more exciting than falling in love (which also annoyed me a lot since Im an uncurable Remus/Sirius shipper). Rowling could have done anything with Tonks - and blew it. Severus as the HBP was all good and fine - but what was that all about anyways? Why dedicate the 6th book to Snape if by the end of it we practically don't know anything more about him than we did at the end of any previous book? The fact that Snape is the HBP didn't do anything to his character - or to the book. Did it? Am I missing something here? And finally Draco's character seems to have grown a lot. Which is good. I had almost given up hope after OOTP that Draco would be given the chance to come back in the books as something other than the Slytherin badboy who makes Harry's life a little more difficult at times. I was disappointed that Sirius seems to have completely vanished from the books as well as from Harry's thoughts. Maybe in book 7.... but if Harry's grief was so easy to overcome as it seemed it has - I find it rather difficult to see how Sirius can come back into Harry's life - in whatever state (ghost, mirror....) and still be important to Harry. Sirius was forgotten a bit too soon. Inge From npod4291 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 14:21:59 2005 From: npod4291 at yahoo.com (npod4291) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:21:59 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > That just doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't seem in character that > Dumbledore would ask anyone to split his soul and become a murderer > under any circumstances. And if Snape did discover something useful > about Voldemort who in the Order could he tell about it, who would > believe him? > > And Dumbledore would have to be crazy not to let Harry in on the plan, > if Harry saw Snape murder him Dumbledore must have known him well > enough to know Harry would move heaven and earth to kill Snape or die > in the attempt. > > Eggplant First off, I think that people are misunderstanding what a Horcrux is, or rather how one is created. From what I gather, it is not something that automatically happens upon murdering someone, but something that must be planned. It is a spell where murder is a prerequiste, not the cause. Also, I am not completely sure that Harry is even planning on hunting Snape. At the end of the book he said that he was going to hunt the Horcruxes and LV, and IF Snape happened to get in the way, he would duel him. -Nate From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 22 14:38:25 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:38:25 -0000 Subject: Snape giveaway by JKR in BBC interview? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "desastreuse" wrote: It seems to me > that Rowling is truly hedging when it comes to Snape's nature (e.g., > the recent Leaky Cauldron interview) but did give herself away here > a bit. The omission of Snape is very telling, indeed. The small- > potatoes cruelty of Umbridge, the smarminess of Lockhart, the > priggish bullying of Dursley capped only by the predictable violence > of Voldemort leaves a hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through > when it comes to Snape's "apparent" cruel, evil, and violent > treachery. Certainly she hasn't forgotten potentially and arguably > the worst villain of the entire series, he of the gross greasy hair > and the yellow teeth, the one she just wrote most recently about in > her most controversal text yet? > > Indeed, at times it not what we say, it's what we don't say that > matters most. > Yes, sometimes omission is a vital key to understanding a statement, but sometimes it isn't. You have to be extremely careful with this kind of reasoning, as it can very quickly get you into deep problems. It is true she didn't mention Snape. However, she didn't mention Bellatrix, Lucius, or Wormtail either. I doubt we can imply from such an omission that those characters are not evil, or that they are people she would like to be stuck on an island with. Lupinlore From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:59:39 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:59:39 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "npod4291" wrote: > > First off, I think that people are misunderstanding what a Horcrux > is, or rather how one is created. From what I gather, it is not > something that automatically happens upon murdering someone, but > something that must be planned. It is a spell where murder is a > prerequiste, not the cause. > > -Nate Inge: That is the way I read it, too. Your soul does not split just from murdering someone. If that were the case there would be a LOT of split- souls/Horcrux'es out there. The killing is part of what you have to do to deliberately split your soul and create a Horcrux. Besides, it never said how Voldemort got hold of the spell to use, did it? Slughorn didn't/couldn't/wouldn't tell him and Im sure it's not something easy found in spellbooks..... From momy424 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 15:15:30 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (momy424 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:15:30 -0400 Subject: Some things that bother me Message-ID: <8C75CE75530670E-218-FB14@mblk-r27.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134162 There are so many posts and though I keep trying to keep up, seems this is an almost impossible feat unless I quit my job, lol. Anyway, I have some things that are bothering me on the series, but my points to reference have been borrowed (Books 1 - 4) so I will ask my esteemed "colleagues" on the list to assist. I was almost 99% sure in GoF, in the opening chapters when they are at the Riddle house that the information on the deaths of the Riddle's included the son (Tom) whose body was not found or something to that effect, however in HBP, Riddle finds out about his father from his uncle and kills them that same night and it is quite clear that no one knew about Tom before that. Am I imagining this? RAB in my mind definitely is Regulus, I thought of him immediately as I read the initials, but did not pick up the locket at 12 GP until after reading the posts, good memory everyone. My question (in my head) is now, did Kreacher know of his actions? Seems to me Kreacher knows a great many of the goings on in the house and even though seems Regulus was a more appropriate "master" than Sirius was because of his love of the Dark Arts, does not mean that if Kreacher found out he was trying to destroy Voldy in anyway he would not have been sneaky and removed the locket from Regulus possession before he could destroy the soul inside. I am still bothered by the fact that Kreacher is sent to Hogwarts in HBP, but it was not thought of in OoTP, of course he plays a major plot point in the end so he was needed there, but just seems so glaringly obvious. SPEW is another thing that I saw as an obvious oversight. Hermione spent 2 books harping on this subject and working towards it, then just abandons it completely, that is just so unlike her. I realize she has the raging hormone thing going and spends quite a lot of the book pining for Ron, but she still manages to nag about homework and to be worried about her OWL grades and other Hermione things, but not that and no explanation why. Not that I am a big SPEW fan, just seemed weird. I am still up in the air about the Snape evil thing. I believe Dumbledore dead (really dead) but I don't know how I really feel about Snapes prior knowledge. Most of me wants to believe he was only AK-ing on DD orders, but part of me feels that this may just not be the case and that Jo is showing us that evil exists on many levels, even those we believe in. I don't know.. Last thing and then I swear I am done for now.. The Horcruxes - there is a lot of speculation being thrown around on Harry being one, and how and where others were formed. When I read the book and the description of them, I guess I just took it another way. When Voldemort learns of them and how they store a soul, I took it to mean, when you kill you have the option on that kill to use a piece of your soul to create a Horcrux but not necessarily have to do it or if you have done one prior does it happen with each kill. It just seems that people are making it seem that Voldemort created a new one each and every time he killed someone and I doubt that is true. Ok there is my rant for now. Momy424 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 17:01:08 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:01:08 -0400 Subject: The Cave Message-ID: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134163 I may have missed this while I was off-list avoiding spoilers. If it has already been discussed then forgive me, list-elves! These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he was being force-fed potion by HP. "I don't want...don't make me Don't like ... want to stop No. I don't want to ... I don't want to ... let me go Make it stop, make it stop No, no, no ... no ... I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again. Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything No more, please, no more I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! Kill me!" I can't be the only one who thinks there is more to this than random ravings of a potion/poison drinker? Is this snippets of the argument that DD had with Snape (overheard, partially, by Hagrid)? Or snippets of a conversation between DD and Snape after Snape realized what LV was going to do with the prophecy information? DD says Snape is truly remorseful about what LV was going to do with the prophecy info and that the incident was the 'greatest regret of his life.' (HBP 513 Can Ed) While I truly can't see Snape grovelling in such a way, being told that to repay this debt he would have to return to the DE's as a spy (No I don't want to I don't want to let me go), wanting to die to make the remose stop. Wanted someone in the room (DD, ?) to kill him so he would no longer have to feel the pain of what he'd done? James calling him a coward, because he didn't want to go back to the DE's as a spy, because he was too cowardly - wanted to die - intead of living with what he had done? It would explain his reaction to Harry calling him a coward, just after Harry saying "Kill me then, kill me like you killed him you coward." Random thoughts from a Bibbering Humdinger.... CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri Jul 22 17:03:23 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:03:23 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134164 Pippin: I don't think Dumbledore intended to die. I think he trusted that Snape's AK would not be strong enough to kill him, and I do believe it wasn't. AK victims die with their eyes open and they simply collapse on the spot. They don't get blasted into the air. The curse failed, IMO, ,just as Harry's attempt to crucio Bella did, because Snape didn't really mean it. And what of the vow? Casey replies: A lot of this was from a discussion with WingedFigment on LJ. I think Dumbledore told Snape during the argument that if push came to shove he wanted Snape to kill him instead of Draco. That he didn't want his death on Draco's soul. I think Snape out and out refused. When Dumbledore drank the potion out of the well, he knew it was a poison, that's why he wanted to see Snape right away, to get the antidote. Instead there was a battle waging and he knew that he was going to die one way or another. I think he stalled Draco until Snape showed up, and then begged him to kill him. Not only would Snape stay alive and continue to help the Order and Draco would remain untainted by murder, but there was another person that could have taken blame for Dumbledore's death, Harry. Harry force fed the potion to Dumbledore, which was why he was going to die anyway. How would Harry feel knowing that he murdered his mentor? The man most important in his life right then? It would have been too much of a burden and Dumbledore knew that. So instead he begged Snape to kill him. Snape hated Dumbledore for asking that of him, and loathed himself for complying. Those feelings fed the curse that ended Dumbledores life. Casey From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 17:04:37 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:04:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005f01c58edf$71d8c510$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "npod4291" wrote: > > First off, I think that people are misunderstanding what a Horcrux > is, or rather how one is created. From what I gather, it is not > something that automatically happens upon murdering someone, but > something that must be planned. It is a spell where murder is a > prerequiste, not the cause. > > -Nate Inge: That is the way I read it, too. Your soul does not split just from murdering someone. If that were the case there would be a LOT of split- souls/Horcrux'es out there. The killing is part of what you have to do to deliberately split your soul and create a Horcrux. Sherry now: The way I read Dumbledore's explanation was that *any* time a person commits murder it rips the soul. He was emphatic about that. It doesn't mean that every time someone murders and tears their soul that a horcrux is created. You would then have to do a spell or whatever to create the horcrux. But the soul is still torn by the act of murder. I was often sleepy during the flash backs into riddle's past, but the soul thing was so painful an idea and yet so obvious, that murder would rip the soul, that i was utterly engrossed. sherry From xcpublishing at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:09:41 2005 From: xcpublishing at yahoo.com (xcpublishing) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:09:41 -0000 Subject: Survey results Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134166 Earlier this year we sent out a survey with questions for Book Six. It turns out most of these questions were not answered, but here are the results anyway! 1) Who is the Half-born Prince? The most popular response was Someone New, followed by Godric Gryffindor. Only 9% of you picked Snape. Congratulations! 2) Is Snape a vampire? Only a couple of vampire lovers subscribed to this theory and it rather looks like it's not an option. 3) Are Sirius and Snape brothers? A vast majority thought this was impossible and it looks very unlikely due to the limited mention of Sirius at all in HBP. 4) Was Snape at Godric's Hollow? This question still hasn't been answered and the majority said Yes. I have a feeling that number will increase after HBP. Still a very good question for the next book. 5) Who will inherit the Black estate? This question had a massive number of responses ranging from Kreacher to the Ministry of Magic. The majority, however, said Harry and they turned out to be correct. 6) Where is Sirius's bike? Still unanswered, though most suggest it's in the forest. Who knows if we'll ever find out? 7) Who will be the new Minister of Magic? The majority chose Amelia Bones, followed by Someone New and JKR put the Amelia Bones idea to rest at the beginning of HBP, most likely because it would have been to strange to have the Ministry actually helping Harry for a change, instead of spinning their wheels ineffectively like they were through the rest of the series. 8) Is Harry the heir of Gryffindor? Still unanswered, though the large majority says No. 9) Is Lupin good or evil? Still not completely answered, though the vast majority says Good and I don't think many opinions have changed since HBP. 10) Will Percy reunite with his family? A whopping 70% said Yes, but this question still hasn't been answered. Right now Percy is still running with the Ministry pack and nothing much has changed since the last book. 11) Who will die in HBP? This question had the most varied answers, with one of the Weasley clan winning 29% of the votes (Bill nearly made that one valid) followed by 12% voting for Hagrid and only 11% claiming Dumbledore as the victim. Way to go, you budding Trelawneys! 12) Will Petunia perform magic? Still unanswered and 63% said Yes, but looking at her poor performance in HBP I wonder if that number has dropped. 13) Is Snape good or evil? Clearly the most controversial question and even more fiery now with people swapping sides madly! A whopping 63% said Good, 31% said Both, and only a measly 7% said Evil. I'll bet this one has changed a bit! I must say, I was quite firmly in the ESE!Snape camp and I've completely reversed my opinion since HBP. Mostly because of sheer pigheaded refusal to accept the obvious. Anyone else notice that it's taking ten times longer to read the posts than it did to read the book? At least that will keep us occupied for the next... sob... two years... Nicky Joe From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 22 17:12:12 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:12:12 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak knows best In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > > Colebiancardi wrote: > > > It could also be that Buckbeak sees Harry in danger and comes out to > > protect him. > > AH! But if Snape is really on the good side and sworn to protect Harry, > > ****Why is he mounting a vicious, possibly fatal attack on him***???? > > Sorry, but I've been wanting to ask that for days! > > Inkling For the reasons I stated in the earlier post (which got posted twice, sorry). That buckbeak DOESN'T know Snape from a hole in the ground. They have never been introduced, as far as I can tell. They never exchanged the "bows" ceremony, that Harry & Buckbeak have already done. Buckbeak is an animal, lets not forget that. He isn't all powerful and he see what he sees. He perhaps senses Harry's emotions, and that could be why he attacks Snape - because of Harry's hatred of him, not that Snape is **evil** colebiancardi From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:13:54 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did Draco get the hand of glory? Message-ID: <20050722171354.80983.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134168 I must admit that I don't really have my Chamber of Secrets around at the momment but I can't remember Draco actually getting the Hand of Glory at any point. Did his father actually allow him to buy the object? ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 17:20:39 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:20:39 -0400 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die References: <1122051178.2593.94587.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c58ee1$af2b3f40$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134169 DuffyPoo wrote: > Actually, I am convinced of it. I will be completely surprised if he lives. He will die to protect someone after he has finished LV. There will still be DE's in the fray (I don't envision a one-on-one between LV & HP). HP saving Draco from Lucius would be interesting - if, of course, LM ever gets out of Azkaban. > > Besides, it is the only way JKR won't be hounded to insanity for more HP books. npod4291 said: "I don't know, I can't possibly see Harry dying. We are forgetting, despite the large number of adults that read these books, as evidence by this site, this is still a KIDS book/series. Harry dying would be the kind of stuff that leave scars on a child. I know that people will say that DD dying would have the same effect, but I'm not quite sure if thats true." All of the kids in Lewis' Narnia series died, did they not? At the end (sorry, it's been a l-o-n-g time since I've read them) wasn't there a horrific train crash that killed the kids and their parents? I don't think I'm horribly scarred...well, IIRC, JKR says she began writing this for herself...something she just had to get out. The publishers turned it into a children's book that managed to capture the hearts (minds...) of adults as well. JKR herself was very affected by the death of her mother (wasn't it) and wanted to show death in these books as death, that it can happen to anyone and that you don't come back. Death is a part of life after all. CathyD DuffyPoo From lillys_lianas_mom at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 16:51:29 2005 From: lillys_lianas_mom at yahoo.com (lillys_lianas_mom) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:51:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134170 page 591-592 "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can possibly imagine." Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we think to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps Regulas??? Rachel From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:40:42 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Just an odd silly thought. In-Reply-To: <1122051178.2593.94587.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050722174042.11607.qmail@web30509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134171 No one in the wizarding world seems interested, or takes note when Tom Riddle calls himself Lord Voldemort. It just seems to be accepted (except by Dumbledore). And I'm not buying that the whole WW didn't know Tom and Lord Voldemort were the same person... Dumbldore recognized him when applying for the Dark Arts position, as I'm sure many of his fellow students would have. There must be some people who wondered where the popular good looking Tom from school days is doing and tried to look him up... No students seem to surprised when Snape calls himself the Half-Blood Prince. (of course in Snape's case he may have not told anyone and it's a name he uses in private, which, really seems pathetic). That and so far, it's only the "villians" or let's just say, "Bad Guys" that seem to change their names, and give themselves titles. Couldn't that be an alarm for the WW to watch out for future Bad guys? He's changing his name and now callin himself, Lord this or Prince that... Let's check him/her out... of course while it is something I just noticed, the post is tongue in cheek. Cat Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From reyakittens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:36:45 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:36:45 -0000 Subject: Absolutely loved the book - - but.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134172 > > I was disappointed that Sirius seems to have completely vanished from > the books as well as from Harry's thoughts. Maybe in book 7.... but > if Harry's grief was so easy to overcome as it seemed it has - I find > it rather difficult to see how Sirius can come back into Harry's > life - in whatever state (ghost, mirror....) and still be important > to Harry. Sirius was forgotten a bit too soon. > > Inge I don't think Harry has forgotten about Sirius... you're forgetting that Harry just heard a prophecy that either he is going to die or v is going to die... i think he has no choice but to try to move on and start to think about how he's going to survive. even with dd telling Harry its all about choices (which has always been big in j's book -- even in chamber, dd tells harry that he wasnt put in Slytherin because he chose not -- its his choices that makes him diff from v) Harry realizes that he must kill Voldemort regardless to have peace... thats where his attention is laying. he says himself if he laid around thinking of sirius all the time, he wouldn't get on -- it seems like he's repressing until he has found that he can deal with it. Tamuril From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Fri Jul 22 17:43:51 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:43:51 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134173 Allie wrote: Any other > favorite lines? > Well, its pretty dry, but Snape amused me here: "My apologies," said Snape. "He [wormtail] has lately taken to listening at doors, I don't know what he means by it . . . ." A clue for later, yes, but also shows Snape has a dry sense of humor about himself. Made me like him. HogwartsMom From desastreuse at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:46:05 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:46:05 -0000 Subject: Snape giveaway by JKR in BBC interview? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134174 Lupinlore writes: > However, she didn't mention Bellatrix, Lucius, or Wormtail either. > I doubt we can imply from such an omission that those characters are > not evil, or that they are people she would like to be stuck on an > island with. Of course, one must apply a rational eye to these things. I did not mean to imply that her omission is necessarily a definitive answer to anything. Having said that, however, one could hardly place Snape in the same category as Bellatrix, Lucius, or Wormtail when it comes to a hierarchy of characters. All I'm saying is that given Snape's prominence as a character, her omission is striking and may be more relevant than not. desastreuse From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:10:31 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Recent interview with JKR - horcrux inference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722171031.1112.qmail@web60412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134175 EvilNuff: > Further, while I agree the series has had a lot of > self sacrifice > themes, I cannot see what is at its core a childrens > series ending on > such an unhappy note. Personally I cannot see any > possible ending > for Harry other than Harry + Ginny living happily > every after. Harry has suffered through an extremely abusive and deprived childhood, courtesy of the Dursley's. He has suffered the loss of loved ones, he has survived torture, and other pain, both physical and emotional, much of it severe to extremely severe. What JKR has put him through would have broken many a lesser soul, including, I suspect, most of us. I can think of no way I will see this as even remotely worth it unless in the end, we see a Harry-Ginny happily ever after; giving Harry the life Lily and others died to provide for him. Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From magalud at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:09:14 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Buckbeak knows best In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722150914.24021.qmail@web52113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134176 inkling108 wrote: > You may not trust Harry's assessment of Snape because he is > supposedly biased by his emotions etc etc... but what about > Buckbeak's assessment of Snape? > And there's nothing like sheer animal instinct to cut through > all the emotionalism and over-thinking humans (including > Dumbledore, see part 1 of JKR's interview on mugglenet) are > prone to. Magalud's 2 cents: Love Beaky, nothing against him. It was perfectly understandable animal instinct to attack the one who was attacking Harry. But it may have been instinct only, and one cannot expect beak - sorry, Witherwings - to understand the subtlety of a double agent. So, I love Beaky, but I still put my money on Dumbledore. Magalud SnapeFest 2005! Segunda parte em breve Orgulhosa keeper da voz sexy de Severus Snape e do seu sorrisinho sarc?stico My fanfic: http://www.geocities.com/snapesecrets From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 17:51:13 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:51:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Horcruxes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134177 allthingshp at yahoo.com writes: > where could the cup, Nagini, the real >locket and the something else (the scar! you all yell) be? And how might these locations >match up with characters we still need answers for? For example might wormtail >unbeknownst to himself be carrying the cup in that weird hideaway at Spinners End? What >about the Gaunt's old house? #12? I have no answers but I thought I'd see what you all >had to say! I don't have the book uin front of me either, but I believe Dumby (don't you love that nick?) said he found it in the ruins of the Gaunt house. The hiding places all seem to mean something to Lord Thingy, so I doubt there's one at #12 G.P. (except that we now speculate that R.A.B. = Regulus Black and the heavy locket they found cleaning it up is Voldy's horcrux locket). IIRC, the last time we saw Nagini she was at the Riddle House (which is also where Tom Riddle was), so I would guess that Nagini is either still in the Riddle House, or with her Master (wherever he is). Here are my guesses: Diary - with Lucius Malfoy. (destroyed). Ring - in ruins of Gaunt house (destroyed). Locket - in the cave (removed) Nagini - Riddle House (see above) Cup/Ravenclaw artifact/item # 6* - Orphanage, Riddle House (if that's not where Nagini is), Chamber of Secrets LV himself - whereabouts unknown. * I am not of the opinion that Harry is a horcrux. I have never agreed with the theory that part of Voldy is resident in Harry, and that's why Harry is a Parelmouth and why the Sorting Hat nearly put him in Slytherin. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 22 17:51:29 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:51:29 -0400 Subject: Whoever Snape is fooling... References: <1122051178.2593.94587.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001b01c58ee5$fdaff7b0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134178 Del said "I know this post isn't advancing any theory or anything. I just had to express my utter admiration for someone who has been, for several years, fooling either one or both of the greatest Legilimenses in the world. I won't take a stand in Snape, because JKR deliberately keeps us in the dark IMO, but I can't help but be amazed by the acting capabilities, and the sheer talent in Occlumency, that Snape has been demonstrating. I also wonder WHEN he started fooling anyone. More particularly, was it before or after he joined the DEs the first time around...?" Well, I've been having similar thoughts about dear Severus (gag). I keep coming back to something DD said in GOF during the Pensive scene. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However he *rejoined* our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk." To *rejoin* a side you had to have been there once already. At least that's my take. Otherwise wouldn't DD have said 'he joined our side'? In HBP DD says: "I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he *returned*..." (HPB 513 Can Ed) Again, you can't *return* to something you have never been a part of. I have thought, for some time (although I don't really spend much time thinking about Snape for the same reason you outlined above), That Snape fooled DD the first time..when he came crawling back...convinced DD he was repentant (remorseful of passing on the prophecy info as we now are lead to believe)...and was really working for LV all the time. Milz said "As a spy, Snape is a betrayer. That's the nature of a spy: they must deceive and betray the "other side". As a double agent, Snape is a double betrayer. Betrayers in classic literature don't get very far, lifespan-wise." I think the difference here is Snape is double-agenting himself. When the crap hits the fan at the end of all this no matter what side loses, he still has a job. If ths side of good is defeated and LV reigns supreme, Snape has done his job well. If the good guys win, everyone in the order knows he was spying on the DE's for DD. DD's portrait or memories in the pensive can prove Snape was acting on DD's orders to kill him to let Malfoy live. (If you believe that theory.) Harry said it best, didn't he, when he said: "But [Snape's] a very good Occlumens, isn't he, sir?" CathyD DuffyPoo From jenn_ivory at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:48:19 2005 From: jenn_ivory at yahoo.com (jenn_ivory) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:48:19 -0000 Subject: Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134179 SSSJ: I was wondering what new light HBP sheds on the use of the > Patronus and relationships. Specifically if the new form of Tonks > patronus is a > werewolf which indicates how she feels about Lupin. What do the > different Patroni that we see in the DA sections of book 5 tell us > about the relationships of the other characters. Just curious to > see if anyone else had thought about this and what they thought it > might mean. jenn_ivory: I wrote this on another board but now that I know that I am delusional it doesn't apply. I thinking this symbolism is too deep for HP series. I would be interested in knowing how Hermione got that particular patronus. "I know this is totally off subject. I was wondering about the connection between a person and his/her patronus. Tonks's patronus changed to a wolf after she starting loving Remus. I think that scene with Harry and Snape confirms that. So I was wondering if a patronus is a symbol of love/ protection. Another example is Harry's patronus being a stag (father's love and protection for his son). I read an essay that Hermione's patronus (an otter) indicates that she would protect Harry because the otter is known for killing all types of snakes. I think the Hermione's patronus might be a reflection of Harry himself instead of Hermione. Harry has been fighting the heir of Slytherin (symbol:snake) I think that Hermione's patronus might indicate her feelings more than I realized. I just assumed that the patronus indicated a person's character but Rowling has shown us that a patronus can also take the form of an individual's lover/protector. I could be totally off but tell me what you think." From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 17:56:27 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:56:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slughorn: a different look at Slytherin Message-ID: <24.756b36de.30128d4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134180 Sue writes: >One thing I noticed in HBP, and rather enjoyed, was the fact that Horace Slughorn >represents a departure from the usual "evil" Slytherin students and alumni we have seen. >He's not potrayed as evil, just ambitious. He is more than ready and willing to use his >contacts for his own personal benefit. But he has been on the run for a year to avoid the >DE's, which implies he does not want to choose their "side" in the war. Crabbe and Goyle are Slytherins, but they seem to have no will of their own (not in the Imperius sense, just in the sense that they are born followers). Slughorn may be one of those. He relies on others to give him the good life, but does very little of an active nature. The main reason (IMHO) that he isn't a DE is that that would require him to take a risk. The Malfoys and Snape may be guided by "enlightened self-interest", but Slughorn's motivation is simple self-interest - the greatest personal gain with the least effort and NO risk. >This "new" look at Slytherin house is a welcome change. Thanks, Jo! Ditto. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:00:28 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:00:28 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes, The Hat & The Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134181 I've been looking for references in other posts, but so far have found none that remark on the possibility of the Sorting Hat and Marauder's Map being Horcruxes or a kind of magic related to them. If there are, please point me. ******************************************************************* >From the Mugglenet Interview: ES: Has the Sorting Hat ever been wrong? JKR: No. ES: Really? JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory? ES: I have heard a lot of theories. JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry. MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the Hat itself - JKR: [makes mysterious noise] MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from - JKR: The Founders themselves. ********************************************************************* Me again: They both have something of the personalities of their creators. They seem to be used in a similar way Nagini is. It obviously didn't take a murder to create the Map and Hat...so how were they made? The murder must make a qualitative difference in the magic to prolong the maker's life, since the Sorting Hat and Marauder's Map didn't prevent those who made them from dying. Is it possible to put part of yourself in an object other than your soul? Ideas? Miz Storge From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:05:29 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:05:29 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134182 Nickel wrote: > > My question is this: Does anyone think that Charlie will be making an appearance in Book 7? If so, what will his role be? Carol responds: Charlie will certainly be making an appearance in Book 7. Otherwise JKR would never have mentioned him. (She could have made Bill the greatest Seeker Gryffindor ever had until Harry came along.) Charlie's appearances so far (his burned hands, his friends sent to retrieve Norbert, his handling of the Horntail, IIRC, in GoF) have all related to dragons, and I think his role in Book 7 will relate to that. (LV will certainly use dragons as one of his weapons.) I also it's very likely that Charlie will be killed in this very dangerous job--one of several Weasley deaths foreshadowed by Mrs. Weasley's boggart in OoP. (Percy will surely be another.) Carol, who was disappointed to see all of the hands on Mrs. Weasley's clock *already* pointing to mortal peril From unix4evr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:06:46 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:06:46 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134183 Having gone back and forth on this one and wanting to think Snape is a triple-agent on DD's side I finally concluded he really is evil. Go back and re-read the discussion with DD and Harry before they leave Hogwarts. Harry tries to warn DD that Draco and Snape will do something while they were gone. DD assures him that the castle is protected. Well, what happens? Harry was right. If Snape knew about the plan to penetrate Hogwarts via the cabinet why didn't he warn DD? No one knew that Harry and DD were leaving except for Ron, Hermione and. . .Snape? No, unfortunately I agree that Snape really is all bad. And I'm beginning to wonder if (as some here have suggested) Snape isn't the real villain of the piece. . .not Voldemort. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:12:19 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:12:19 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134184 Calling all detectives.. all fellow Aurors. There are clues, but I am very confused about them. I am very confused about a number of things. 1. the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and starts_ what?? Remembering something that is from his life, or channeling a memory of someone else's?? And what memory is it? Take out the parts where Harry is giving him the drink and put it together, and what do we have" (I don't think it is really about what is happening in the moment. It is not really DD saying that he doesn't want to keep drinking. That is just a clever trick of our author.) DD says: "I don't want to, don't make me don't like want to stop no I don't want to I don't want to let me go make it stop make it stop no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to, It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and Ill never, never again Don't hurt them, don't hut them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead please, please, please, please, no not that, not that, I'll do anything I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! KILL ME!" Any ideas as to what this is really all about?? Is he drinking the liquid out of a pensive and someone's memory is in it?? Who's? And also if Regulas Black got the locket first and put this one in it's place, he had to drink the liquid, right? How is it that the basin is full of liquid again? 2. The tower scene with DD and Draco. DD says " No Draco, it is my mercy and not yours that matters now". What is THAT about? DD sounds like God there. All I can say is *Huh???* Tonks_op From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:25:24 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:25:24 -0000 Subject: Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenn_ivory" wrote: > SSSJ: > > I was wondering what new light HBP sheds on the use of the > > Patronus and relationships. Specifically if the new form of Tonks > > patronus is a > > werewolf which indicates how she feels about Lupin. What do the > > different Patroni that we see in the DA sections of book 5 tell us > > about the relationships of the other characters. Just curious to > > see if anyone else had thought about this and what they thought it > > might mean. > > > jenn_ivory: > > I wrote this on another board but now that I know that I am > delusional it doesn't apply. I thinking this symbolism is too deep > for HP series. I would be interested in knowing how Hermione got > that particular patronus. > > "I know this is totally off subject. I was wondering about the > connection between a person and his/her patronus. Tonks's patronus > changed to a wolf after she starting loving Remus. I think that scene > with Harry and Snape confirms that. So I was wondering if a patronus > is a symbol of love/ protection. Another example is Harry's patronus > being a stag (father's love and protection for his son). I read an > essay that Hermione's patronus (an otter) indicates that she would > protect Harry because the otter is known for killing all types of > snakes. I think the Hermione's patronus might be a reflection of > Harry himself instead of Hermione. Harry has been fighting the heir > of Slytherin (symbol:snake) I think that Hermione's patronus might > indicate her feelings more than I realized. I just assumed that the > patronus indicated a person's character but Rowling has shown us that > a patronus can also take the form of an individual's lover/protector. > I could be totally off but tell me what you think." --- Inge: Just a thought - Hermione/OTTER.... Ron, OTTERy St Catchpole.... From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 18:26:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:26:37 -0000 Subject: Horcrux Harry Will Die!/Wizard Population In-Reply-To: <002901c58ec7$c617c5d0$6362d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Geoff said: > Taking the opposite view, I have always taken a crumb of comfort from: > > 'In years to come, Harry woudl never quite remember how he had > managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to > come bursting through the door ar any moment.' > > (PS "Through the Trapdoor" p.191 UK edition) CathyD DuffyPoo: > I wish I had your faith. Considering HP was only 11 at the time, 'in years > to come' could mean 3rd year or 4th year... Geoff: You left off the end of my message which was crucial to my thinking... "It gives the feel of looking back and reminiscing well after the event." I doubt whether Harry really had time to look back reflectively in the Hogwarts years and think like this. The whole feel of the sentence to me indicates looking back fom a situation beyond the events and perhaps smiling to himself at the recollection. From jmkearns at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:32:31 2005 From: jmkearns at gmail.com (John Kearns) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:32:31 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134187 UNIX4EVR wrote: > Having gone back and forth on this one and wanting to think Snape > is a triple-agent on DD's side I finally concluded he really is evil. John K: I agree with your premise, but not with all of your rationales: > UNIX4EVR: > If Snape knew about the plan to penetrate Hogwarts via the cabinet > why didn't he warn DD? No one knew that Harry and DD were leaving > except for Ron, Hermione and. . .Snape? John K: Snape didn't necessarily know about the plan (he kept offering to help Draco, and could easily have been offering to help create a plan), or that Dumbledore was gone. Remember, Snape wasn't part of the battle until Flitwick came and told him what was going on. As for who else knew Harry and Dumbledore were leaving... what about Madam Rosmerta, under the Imperius? Surely she would have told someone? I thought for several days that Snape must have been good, that it must have been planned, that Dumbledore must have been right. Now I'm fairly sure this is wrong. Here's why: 1) Snape injures Flitwick, to take him and Hermione out of the battle. 2) Dumbledore would never have planned for Snape to use Avada Kedavra, or allowed him to do it. It is evil, unforgivable, and splits your soul (even if you aren't creating a horcrux). 3) Phineas says: "We Slytherins, given the choice, will always choose to save our own necks." Snape doesn't think Harry has the ability to defeat Voldemort. He knows about the prophecy. Thus, he thinks Voldemort will win. Thus, he chooses the side that will save his neck. 4) Think about how long it took him in OotP to alert the Order that Harry had gone to the ministry. Plenty of time for the Death Eaters to kill him and/or get the prophecy. TLC/Mugglenet interview clues, though I hate alluding to it because parts of it were so rude: 5) JKR agrees that Dumbledore trusts people to the point of recklessness. It's fairly well implied here that she means Snape. 6) JKR is surprised when it is suggested that Dumbledore may have planned his own death, and she seems to come close to dismissing the theory the same way she dismissed the H/HR shippers. 7) This is my bitterness talking, but it seems that anyone who overlooks the obvious in the books to seek out more complex motivations and explanations is foolhardy, indeed. As much as I hate to think this, perhaps theories such as Snape's innocence give JKR and her plot too much credit. John K From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:32:02 2005 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:32:02 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > DD says: "I don't want to, don't make me don't like want to stop > no I don't want to I don't want to let me go make it stop make > it stop no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to, It's > all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop, I know I did wrong, > oh please make it stop and Ill never, never again Don't hurt them, > don't hut them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead > please, please, please, please, no not that, not that, I'll do > anything I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, > I want to die! KILL ME!" > > Any ideas as to what this is really all about?? Is he drinking the > liquid out of a pensive and someone's memory is in it?? Who's? And > also if Regulas Black got the locket first and put this one in it's > place, he had to drink the liquid, right? How is it that the basin > is full of liquid again? > I don't know. The person who started the thread "the cave" (up a little bit) had the same question -- he/she omitted the "don't hurt them" quote, which I find really the most interesting of the series. the "don't make me, don' tlike, I don't want to, make it stop" -- well, all that makes sense in context (not wanting to drink the stuff). But the "it's all my fault, I did wrong, I'll never again, don't hurt them, hurt me instead" -- THAT does not make sense in context. He is seeing something, channelling someone ... but WHAT, Who....? Similarly, at the tower, in the talk with draco, Dumbledore says he came back to hogwarts "after a fashion" and that "yes and no," Draco's plan to lure him there worked. I am still trying to figure out this hedging, since on the face of it, he DID clearly come back and the plan DID work. So what's with the cryptic language? Yes, yes, how did that potion get in there again, how did Regulus (or whoever RAB is) get the locket, did kreacher help him, did the potion kill him? But howcome the potion's still there (no mention of it refilling itself after dumbledore finishes it)... did RAB put it there, and why... was the POTION the Horcrux (in which case, again, how'd RAB get the original locket) ... ?????? ARRRGGHHHHHH Julie H, chicago From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:36:16 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:36:16 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hogwartsmom" wrote: > Well, its pretty dry, but Snape amused me here: > > "My apologies," said Snape. "He [wormtail] has lately taken to > listening at doors, I don't know what he means by it . . . ." Tonks: Yes, I love dry humor too. This one is great: Harry in the Hospital: Pomfrey: "I am keeping you in overnight. You shouldn't over exert yourself for a few hours." Harry: "I don't want to stay here overnight" I want to find McLaggen and kill him." Pomfrey: I am afraid that would come under the heading of overexertion" Love it!! Tonks_op From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:37:10 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:37:10 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134190 "npod4291" wrote: > I am not completely sure that Harry > is even planning on hunting Snape. If he does defeat Voldemort what do you imagine Harry will do next? Do you imagine he will marry Ginny have twelve kids and live happily ever after? If this were all some sort of elaborate hoax Dumbledore would have let Harry in on it because otherwise he knew Harry Potter would never rest until Severus Snape was dead, or he was. Eggplant From LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu Fri Jul 22 18:21:33 2005 From: LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu (Laura Herndon) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:21:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cave and the Tower Message-ID: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D983375187@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 134191 Tonks_op wrote: ( the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and starts_ what?? Remembering something that is from his life, or channeling a memory of someone else's?? And what memory is it? big snip Is he drinking the liquid out of a pensive and someone's memory is in it?? Who's? LEH replies I really like the idea of the basin actually being a type of pensieve. Could it possibly be that the basin refills itself with the memories of the last person to drink the liquid? Perhaps Dumbledore is experiencing the memories of the mysterious RAB. That obviously painful memory - sounds like someone being crucioed to me - would certainly explain why RAB was out to ruin Voldemort. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 22 18:41:35 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:41:35 -0000 Subject: Some things that bother me In-Reply-To: <8C75CE75530670E-218-FB14@mblk-r27.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, momy424 at a... wrote: > I was almost 99% sure in GoF, in the opening chapters when > they are at the Riddle house that the information on the deaths > of the Riddle's included the son (Tom) whose body was not found > or domething to that effect, however in HBP, Riddle finds out > about his father from his uncle and kills them that same night > and it is quite clear that no one knew about Tom before that. > Am I imagining this? They found all three bodies: "Fifty years before, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning when the Riddle House had still been well kept and impressive, a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead." The reference to "all three Riddles" is later spelled out: "Elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle had been rich, snobbish, and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom [i.e., Tom Sr., who was Voldemort's father], had been, if anything, worse." I think you might be conflating the discovery of the bodies with this passage about the interrogation of the gardener, Frank Bryce: "But over in the neighboring town of Great Hangleton, in the dark and dingy police station, Frank was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent, and that the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale. Nobody else in the village had seen any such boy, and the police were quite sure Frank had invented him." (all quotes from GF1) --Matt From jmnabers at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:20:09 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:20:09 -0000 Subject: More funny lines in the book. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134193 I don't have the book in front of me...but at the start of term feast when Nearly Headless Nick tells Ron something like, "Once again you have showed all the sensitivity of a blunt axe." I laughed out loud. Jennifer From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:43:32 2005 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:43:32 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John Kearns" wrote: > UNIX4EVR wrote: > > 7) This is my bitterness talking, but it seems that anyone who > overlooks the obvious in the books to seek out more complex > motivations and explanations is foolhardy, indeed. As much as I hate > to think this, perhaps theories such as Snape's innocence give JKR and > her plot too much credit. > Hi John. Well, ya know, book 7 will be the proof of the pudding, yes? I, too, strongly WANT to believe that JKR is a better writer than this -- that making Snape baldly evil -- and revealing it in that "point by point" spinner's end expo, so early in HBP (and really, so early in the endgame of the series) -- is just -- clunky writing. Because I want to believe she's better than this, I want to believe in good!Snape. OR, at the very least, ESE!Snape who's going to be redeemed in some highly unexpected way in Book 7. (The latter scenario would at least explain his use of the AK in such a shocking way.) The whole cave thing, as mentioned earlier, the crazy stuff that comes out of D'dore's mouth there -- there is definitely SOMETHING more going on with Dumbledore at the end of the book, more than meets the reader's eye initially. WHAT is really happening remains to be seen. Which means ... I'm forced to give JKR the benefit of the doubt for another 2 or 3 years, till she ultimately answers all the questions and puts an end to the endless speculation. I really hope there's a "more than meets the eye" explanation for D'dore's death and Snape's behavior -- because the overt explanation (all is as it seems) is extremely boring writing. This in fact, to me, is probably the single strongest argument FOR "more than meets the eye." I hope I'm not wrong. Julie H From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 18:46:46 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:46:46 -0700 Subject: for whom are the books named? Message-ID: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134195 i've been thinking a lot about this over the last couple days, and the deluge of posts has flooded my HP folder in Outlook. Time after time, there is something I want to answer, that gets lost along the way. But my thoughts have been coming together, and I thought I'd share some of what I've been thinking. this series is about Harry Potter. oh sure, it's also about Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, Draco, Snape and Voldemort. Among many others. but in the end, it is Harry's story. Since the release of HBP, we have all been discussing Snape. Snape evil, or Snape good. Snape's motives. most people seem to doubt that wise and intelligent Dumbledore could have been wrong all this time, that brainy Hermione could have been wrong either. The Snape debate often comes down to this: who do we believe? Dumbledore and Hermione, the voices of reason? Or Harry--and also Ron to a lesser extent--the voices of emotion and doubt? But this is Harry's story. It isn't Albus Dumbledore and the Half blood Prince. It isn't Hermione Granger and the Order of the Phoenix. It isn't Severus Snape and the whatever. it is Harry Potter and the ... Harry is the hero. Snape isn't the hero. Hermione isn't the hero. Sure, in a side kick sort of way she is, just as much as Ron or any of Harry's other friends. just as the Fellowship is in LOTR. So, this brings me back to the point. Whose story is this? It is Harry's story. If we are going to believe that Dumbledore was absolutely right to trust Snape, then that seems to take some of the hero mantle away from Harry. i think it will be a far better twist, to have Harry proved right in the end. Sure, we are all, even those of us who weren't Snape apologists before, concerned about the ideas of choices and redemption. if Snape is indeed evil, then what about choosing right over easy. what about redemption? Doesn't some bad guy have to turn away to give the themes of the story any validity? Yes, I believe that someone has to turn away from evil. and didn't we see that beginning to happen on the tower with Draco? The controversy aroused by the end of HBP has almost seemed to turn the book into the story of Severus Snape. no, no! it is Harry's story. In the next book, we are likely to see him away from school, on a typical quest, searching for the horcruxes. I think Harry--and we--must begin to doubt people like Dumbledore now, so that Harry can find his own way to triumph. Maybe not totally doubt him, but as any child begins to do, Harry must search for his own answers, find his own way. sometimes, his gut instincts have to be right. He can't completely depend on everything Dumbledore said or did. He has to learn to pick and choose and find the right way in himself, combining things he has learned from everyone else and what he understands to be right in his heart. It isn't enough anymore to say, Dumbledore said it, or Dumbledore believes it, so therefore it is right. Didn't we learn in OOTP, that Dumbledore wasn't always right? The more I think about it all, the more and more deeply I am convinced that Harry will turn out to be right about Snape in the end, and Dumbledore sadly wrong. Harry is the hero; it is his story. It has to be that way, I think. Sherry From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 22 18:50:58 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:50:58 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134196 > The more I think about it all, the more and more deeply I am convinced that > Harry will turn out to be right about Snape in the end, and Dumbledore sadly > wrong. Harry is the hero; it is his story. It has to be that way, I think. > > > Sherry but Harry has let his emotions run away from him before, correct? When he thought that Sirius had really betrayed his parents and killed Peter, Harry had nothing but seething hatred for Sirius and he wanted him destroyed. Once Harry knew the truth, all was forgiven. I don't think Harry will EVER love Snape, but if, IF, Snape is still batting for the right team, and the reasons why are explained to him, Harry will have to understand & accept that. Just like Lupin stated about his feelings for Snape - he neither likes nor dislikes him....in the end, perhaps that is how Harry will have to view Snape as well. colebiancardi From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 18:51:47 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:51:47 -0000 Subject: Some things that bother me In-Reply-To: <8C75CE75530670E-218-FB14@mblk-r27.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, momy424 at a... wrote: Momy424: > I was almost 99% sure in GoF, in the opening chapters when they are at the Riddle house that the information on the deaths of the Riddle's included the son (Tom) whose body was not found or something to that effect, however in HBP, Riddle finds out about his father from his uncle and kills them that same night and it is quite clear that no one knew about Tom before that. Am I imagining this? Geoff: This has been discussed in past posts - probably buried deep in the bowels of the Yahoomort archive. The relevant canon is: "Fifty years before, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning, when,the Riddle house had still been well kept and impressive... a maid entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead... ..Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude and their grown-up son, Tom, had been even more so." (GOF "The Riddle House" pp.7/8 UK edition) "Frank was stubbornly repeating, again and again, that he was innocent and that the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddles' deaths had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark- haired and pale." (ibid. p.9) So the victims were Tom's father and paternal grandparents many people take the text to imply that the stranger was Tom himself. From carodave92 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:53:07 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:53:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134198 Rachel: > page 591-592 > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can > possibly imagine." > Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we think > to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps Regulas??? If Regulus was still alive, I feel sure that Kreacher would know, and consider him (Regulus) to be his true master. It is an interesting idea though - to think that a character we already know (potentially) would emerge as Regulus. Carodave From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 22 18:54:57 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:54:57 -0000 Subject: Absolutely loved the book - - but.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > I was disappointed that Sirius seems to have completely vanished from > the books as well as from Harry's thoughts. Maybe in book 7.... but > if Harry's grief was so easy to overcome as it seemed it has - I find > it rather difficult to see how Sirius can come back into Harry's > life - in whatever state (ghost, mirror....) and still be important > to Harry. Sirius was forgotten a bit too soon. Marianne: I don't think Sirius did entirely vanish from Harry's thoughts. He quite clearly does not want to talk about Sirius, and dreads when someone else brings up his name, as in the breakfast-in-bed scene at the Burrow. I think JKR did perhaps underplay obvious grief, but then again, as much as I love Sirius, that particular aspect of Harry's life has to be put aside to some degree for the story to progress. In the first half or so of the book there were little clues that Harry still very much feels the loss of Sirius. He thinks Tonks is upset, and is told that she blames herself, but can't bring himself to say anything to her. In his first meeting with Buckbeak, he says, "Missing him?" (So he can actually say something to an animal, even if he can't talk to humans...) He reflects that he never gets post because his one regular correspondent is dead. It's not overt grief, but I think it's there. I think it odd that Harry appears not to think that Sirius deservers or is entitled to have had any sort of memorial service. I'll make a prediction, though, that should Harry visit his parents' graves in Book 7, he'll feel the need to erect some sort of marker for Sirius, too. Marianne From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 18:59:27 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:59:27 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Calling all detectives.. all fellow Aurors. There are clues, but I > am very confused about them. I am very confused about a number of > things. > > 1. the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and starts_ what?? > Remembering something that is from his life, or channeling a memory > of someone else's?? And what memory is it? > Any ideas as to what this is really all about?? Is he drinking > the liquid out of a pensive and someone's memory is in it?? > Who's? And also if Regulas Black got the locket first and put > this one in it's place, he had to drink the liquid, right? How is > it that the basin is full of liquid again? Jen: Most people feel this was someone else's memory. I'm not sure yet. It reminded me a bit of a Dementor moment, compunded thousands of times. Like DD was remembering every bad moment in his life, magnified. Particularly any errors he made that later lead to a person's death or torture. Then JKR said in the interview part two, that if we read closely we can guess DD's boggart. Well again I was reminded of the cave scene-- is his greatest fear making mistakes that lead to other people's pain? I wish I'd paid attention in Potions class :-(. Surely someone has already gone through ever potion we were ever introduced to and determined if its one Snape talked about in class and/or gave as a homework assignment? If not, I'm banking on something to do with the Dementors. Or boggarts. Or *something* like that. Jen, obviously not Auror material. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:00:47 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:00:47 -0000 Subject: Harry grief for Sirius Was: Re: Absolutely loved the book - - but.../. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134201 > Marianne: > > I don't think Sirius did entirely vanish from Harry's thoughts. > It's not overt grief, but I think it's there. Alla: I agree Marianne. Surprisingly, I was VERY pleased with how JKLR portrayed Harry's grief for Sirius. It was subtle,but so there, IMO. To the examples you add I will add Harry's mentioning missing meals while in Dursleys and lashing out at Fletcher and then thinking that Sirius hated those silver goblets anyway. I thought it was very well done. JMO, Alla. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 19:02:32 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:02:32 -0000 Subject: How did Draco get the hand of glory? In-Reply-To: <20050722171354.80983.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miss Melanie wrote: Melanie: > I must admit that I don't really have my Chamber of Secrets around at the momment but I can't remember Draco actually getting the Hand of Glory at any point. Did his father actually allow him to buy the object? Geoff: Not in canon. '"Can I have that?" interrupted Draco, pointing at the withered hand on its cushion. "Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr.Borgin, abandoning Mr.Malfoy's list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives light only to the holder! Best friend of thieves and plunderers! Your son has fine taste, sir" "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin!" said Mr.Malfoy coldly and Mr.Borgin said quickly, "No offence, sir, no offence meant -"' (COS "At Flourish and Blotts" pp.43-44 UK edition) At which point, the conversation and action moves back to that between Borgin and Lucius Malfoy and Draco moves on... From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 22 19:07:32 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:07:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cave In-Reply-To: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <42E143F4.3040104@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134203 Cathy Drolet wrote: > I may have missed this while I was off-list avoiding spoilers. If it has already been discussed then forgive me, list-elves! > > These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he was being force-fed potion by HP. > > "I don't want...don't make me > Don't like ... want to stop > No. I don't want to ... I don't want to ... let me go > Make it stop, make it stop > No, no, no ... no ... I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to > It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again. > Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything > No more, please, no more > I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! > Kill me!" > > I can't be the only one who thinks there is more to this than random ravings of a potion/poison drinker? Is this snippets of the argument that DD had with Snape (overheard, partially, by Hagrid)? Or snippets of a conversation between DD and Snape after Snape realized what LV was going to do with the prophecy information? > > DD says Snape is truly remorseful about what LV was going to do with the prophecy info and that the incident was the 'greatest regret of his life.' (HBP 513 Can Ed) While I truly can't see Snape grovelling in such a way, being told that to repay this debt he would have to return to the DE's as a spy (No I don't want to I don't want to let me go), wanting to die to make the remose stop. Wanted someone in the room (DD, ?) to kill him so he would no longer have to feel the pain of what he'd done? James calling him a coward, because he didn't want to go back to the DE's as a spy, because he was too cowardly - wanted to die - intead of living with what he had done? It would explain his reaction to Harry calling him a coward, just after Harry saying "Kill me then, kill me like you killed him you coward." > > Random thoughts from a Bibbering Humdinger.... > > CathyD > DuffyPoo digger: I assumed when I read this passage that DD was reliving the magical torture that Tom Riddle subjected the little children to in the cave. In other words, its Tom Riddles memory of why the cave is so significant to him. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/55 - Release Date: 21/07/2005 From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 22 19:09:01 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:09:01 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134204 Julie H wrote: > I really hope there's a "more than meets the eye" explanation for D'dore's death and > Snape's behavior -- because the overt explanation (all is as it seems) is extremely boring > writing. This in fact, to me, is probably the single strongest argument FOR "more than > meets the eye." Rachael now: I think that there is a way for ESE!Snape to exist and still have there be more that meets the eye. I've been going back and forth about whether Snape is with the DEs or with the Order, and right now I'm thinking he's really with neither. I think he's really just for himself. If you think about it, that's pure Slytherin, and JKR said that the Sorting Hat's never been wrong. My theory is that Snape has truly been the double agent to both sides and never really decided until he had to. He was playing both sides until Voldemort's first fall, and once Voldemort fell, he made sure he was right there helping DD. He stayed on DD's side until he had to be a double agent again at GoF. At this point, DD's side still seemed to be the winning team, so he had no reason to abandon it. At the end of OotP, he alerts the order about Harry because Dumbledore is still the strongest wizard, and the Order is still the winning team, and Snape needs to be on the winning team at the end (like last time). After the MoM incident, however, he notices that DD's become much weaker and older, but there isn't a clear winner up ahead - he cannot tell which team is stronger, and more importantly, he doesn't have to choose just yet. However, at the end of HBP, he knows DD is going to die. If he doesn't kill him, there are several DEs that will. Snape can either take on the other DEs or AK DD. In addition, if he doesn't kill DD, he will be killed vis-a-vis the Unbreakable Vow. So, he AKs DD because 1)It will save his own life and 2)he figures that the Order without DD is weaker than LV and the DEs. I mean, if the only person LV ever feared is gone, how could he lose? I also have an explanation for why he didn't kill or torture Harry at the end. It's because he had nothing to gain. Snape is great at controlling his emotions and though he hates Harry, all that does is waste time and if he kills Harry when he's under LV's orders not to, he'll just make LV angry. All he gets is a release of emotion. Snape is very calculating and he got his job done, so he just wants to get back to LV to be rewarded. Rachael (all clearly just my opinion) From calamity469 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 17:24:47 2005 From: calamity469 at yahoo.com (calamity) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Absolutely loved the book - - but.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722172448.41882.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134205 Inge : > I was very disappointed that Tonks' charachter (and her special > skills) was not developed and put in use for something more > exciting than falling in love (which also annoyed me a lot since > Im an uncurable Remus/Sirius shipper). > > Rowling could have done anything with Tonks - and blew it. Cali: Well, personally, I think the Tonks character was used by JKR as an example of how strong love can be. It transformed her physically, as well as changed some aspects of her magic (ie-her Patronus form). It was meant to show Harry (and the readers) just how powerful love is. Granted, there was MUCH more that could have been done with the character. However, I think we just got glimpses of it due to the fact that JKR has received a bit of grief on the length of the previous two books. Inge: > Severus as the HBP was all good and fine - but what was that all > about anyways? Why dedicate the 6th book to Snape if by the end > of it we practically don't know anything more about him than we > did at the end of any previous book? > The fact that Snape is the HBP didn't do anything to his > character - or to the book. Did it? Am I missing something here? Cali: I'm not sure exactly what JKR was trying to accomplish with Snape being the HBP, other than to let us know that he IS (just like Voldemort) a Half-blood, not a Pure-blood. Also, it let us know that he was (in his own way) a bit of a rebel. He didn't "follow the book". He, in fact, made alterations to most of the potions in the book. He also was gifted enough, even at a young age, to make up his own hexes (something which Harry hasn't done yet, if I'm not mistaken). Inge: > I was disappointed that Sirius seems to have completely vanished > from the books as well as from Harry's thoughts. Maybe in book > 7.... but if Harry's grief was so easy to overcome as it seemed it > has - I find it rather difficult to see how Sirius can come back > into Harry's life - in whatever state (ghost, mirror....) and > still be important to Harry. Sirius was forgotten a bit too soon. Cali: Sirius WAS got a bit too quickly for my taste, as well. However, I have to admit that I liked the Harry of HBP alot better than the broody Harry of OOTP. However, I think we're also seeing the resiliance of youth at work here, as well. No one seems to recover from such tragedy as well as children. And, given Harry's past and loss to date, maybe JKR is trying to show that people DO recover from such great losses, and move on, and need to focus on what's important, instead of dwelling in the past and letting it control your life. ~Cali From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:11:44 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:11:44 -0000 Subject: JKR answering fan concerns/correcting impressions (was: My Reaction) In-Reply-To: <003f01c58eaf$16a10700$7da737d2@Angel> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134206 SSSusan wrote: > Chapter 2, especially, and a couple of other places in the book felt to me like JKR crossing items off a list. "Fan complaint #1? Yes, took care of that. Fan misinterpretation #2? Yep. Fan concern #3? Got it." I mean, when Bella asked all those questions in Spinner's End, and Snape provided answers -- BING BING BING -- to them all, didn't anyone else feel like JKR had created a list of most-often asked or complained-about points and just got them out of the way? > Carol responds: First, shame on me for doubting Snape, DD, and JKR herself--not to mention all my own pro-Snape arguments regarding previous books. I think we have a new twist on the unreliable narrator here--not Harry's misinterpretation (which we get elsewhere, though there's no denying that Snape killed DD and I'm still worried about his *apparently* using an AK to do it). Instead we have the dramatic point of view, i.e, no POV character, everything viewed from the outside with the reader instead of Harry as eavesdropper. Someone (Valky?) pointed out that Snape is entirely in control in this scene, and the first thing he has to do is put Bellatrix's doubts to rest, trusting that she'll spread his answers to the other DEs who've been whispering behind his back. Bellatrix is voicing the questions that first Lucius and then Voldemort would have raised and answering as he answered them, using Occlumency if necessary if any of them has any skill as a Legilimens. (He would certainly have needed all his skill at Occlumency in answering Voldemort.) These are also the questions that Harry and the reader have been asking. *But* the answers Snape gives are not necessarily the real answers. They are the answers he has to give to end Bellatrix's doubts, which are really ended only when he grants Narcissa's plea to bind himself with the Unbreakable Vow. He has made a terrible sacrifice, which will force him either to lose his life or to commit a terrible deed. I thought from the beginning that the explanation for Snape's argument with Dumbledore was fishy. Snape would not have argued about interrogating or spying on his own students. "I won't do it any more!" must have something to do with letting Draco make his own decisions, including the clumsy attempts to kill Dumbledore through some other means than a direct confrontation and an AK. If he were really a DE, he would not have blown his cover by an open quarrel with the man he was supposed to deceive and murder (when Draco failed). What is that potion that revives a person who's an inch from death? I think that's what Dumbledore wanted Snape to give him. Meanwhile, Snape saved Katie Bell from the worst effects of the cursed necklace, saved Draco from the curse he himself invented (showing that he is indeed a DADA *master* as well as a Potions master, and not just in the sense of teacher, and he provided Harry with the means to save Ron--the bezoar that he mentioned, and attempted to pound into Harry's head, in their very first class session. Anyway, I think (as I first hoped and then doubted when I was hit with the AK near the end of the book--sorry, when DD was hit with the AK and my hopes and expectations received a near-fatal blow) that the conversation with Bellatrix is a red herring. It answers the questions we've all been asking as Snape must have answered Voldemort, but it doesn't give the true answers, which Snape the superb Occlumens and accomplished liar is not about to reveal to the woman who regards herself as Voldemort's most loyal supporter. Carol, who would still be muttering "It can't be true! It can't be true!" if it weren't for this group P.S. The place that felt most like JKR crossing an item off the list was the vampire at Slug's party, who served no other purpose than to show that Snape wasn't one From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 19:14:07 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:14:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lillys_lianas_mom" wrote: Rachel: > page 591-592 > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can > possibly imagine." > Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we think > to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps Regulas??? Geoff: I'm sorry if I'm being thick but, in my UK copy (pp.552-553), Dumbledore's comment begins with "Come over to the right side, Draco...". It lacks your quoted first sentence which removes the point of your theory....Can you point me to the "He cannot kill you if you are already dead" quote, please? From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:19:06 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:19:06 -0000 Subject: Why LV Wanted a Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134208 Just couldn't believe Lord Thingy showed up at Hogwarts fot an interview for the DADA job. No resume, no suit. Thinking along Dumbledore's lines: why? what does he really want? We know he's looking for souvieners of the Founders. Wouldn't the Sorting Hat be the ultimate souvenir? MizStorge From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 22 19:21:01 2005 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Jo Raggett) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:21:01 -0000 Subject: RAB - NOT Regulus but a girl!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134209 I've been trying to keep up with the list but it's impossible!! I don't believe that this has been discussed tho! When I initially read the initials RAB my instant reaction was Amelia Bones - I am known in RL by my last two initials JR but my real initials are AJR. My second thought was Regulus and this does fit nicely in with Harry inheriting #12 but it's just another thought to add to the pot. That could have been why she was murdered - horribly too! Maybe Emmeline was her aide in getting the locket. She possibly did not have had chance to inform DD that she had it before she was killed. This could explain how DD knew where the locket was. Plus she was murdered by LV himself! Regulus wasn't! It just seems strange that their deaths were mentioned at all. I know that we would have expected some characters we had heard of to have perished and that may account for it I suppose. Just another knut to add to the fountain! Aggie P.S. HI to anyone who remembers me! Not posted for nearly a year now!! From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:36:14 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:36:14 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134210 Tonks_op: 2. The tower scene with DD and Draco. DD says " No Draco, it is my mercy and not yours that matters now". What is THAT about? DD sounds like God there. All I can say is *Huh???* Casmir- I believe Dumbledore could "kill" "immobilize" (whatever) Draco at any moment. He may be weak, but he's still got something in him...he was able to freeze Harry, right? I think Dumbledore was commenting on the arrogance of a 16 yr old who thinks his infantile hold on things is strong enough to overcome "the greatest wizard who ever lived". I think his weakened state just puts him equal with everybody else, at most. I think Dumbledore was always able to defend himself. He either arranged something with Snape, or allowed Snape to make his decision; which ever it was Dumbledore remained true to himself in that he puts people (souls) first. If Dumbledore sounds like a God, it's only because he is dealing with so many who are inferior to him; whom he has shown unrelenting tolerance to his whole life. Unlike some one else we can't name. ~Casmir From jellocat at comcast.net Fri Jul 22 19:35:39 2005 From: jellocat at comcast.net (Jellocat) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:35:39 -0400 Subject: Observations and my predictions for Book 7 In-Reply-To: <1122044936.1885.64018.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134211 Hello. I've been lurking for a while and am absolutely enjoying all the theories running around and have a few of my own, as well. Please forgive my long-windedness! But first for the easy stuff... Oaksong asked if Dan would be too old to play Harry by the time book 7 gets made into a movie. Nah! Look at all the actors that portray teens when they're well into their 20s. :) I, for one, really hope all three continue all the way through. See, that was easy. A couple of things I saw in book 7 that just made me grin lovingly. The character named Demelza... I wonder if JKR took the name from the charity that Dan Radcliffe supports - Demelza House, a children's hospice? Really sweet to do that! Loved the shout out to Rupert when Sluggy forgot Ron's name. Very funny! Loved all the Twins' stuff at the shop and the conversation between Harry/Ginny - Ron/Hermione about whether Harry has a tattoo on his chest of a Hippogriff or not. That was my favorite! Did anyone read the Time magazine piece with JKR? In the article, they make some of their own predictions, but one of which I thought was REALLY cool was the one about Harry returning to Hogwarts as the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor. I remember reading somewhere that Jo stated one of the characters will return to Hogwarts to teach... Can't remember where I read that, perhaps someone on this list remembers? Of course, most people would think Hermione because of her book smarts, but I think Harry as DADA instructor is just too perfect. Afterall, Voldy cursed the job, Voldy dies (we hope), the curse is lifted, and who better to teach DADA than Harry himself? He's already experienced, as well! Perhaps that was some clever foreshadowing? As far as Harry as a Horcrux... My feeling is that he might've been, as an accident, but when Voldy got a hold of his blood in GoF he might've removed the horcrux, if, indeed, there was one. He was able to touch Harry after that AND he was trying to kill him. Why would he try to kill Harry if he was still a horcrux? Also, I think that Snape not trying to kill Harry towards the end of HBP and telling the other DEs to leave him to Voldy was a way of Snape protecting Harry than anything (I do believe in the theories that Snape is acting on the side of Dumbledore and the Order with everything he's done). Also, with Dumbledore explaining to Harry about horcruxes why wouldn't he mention to Harry that Harry might even be one, himself? With the brain the size of a planet you would think DD would say something to Harry about it? I loved the "ships" in the book. Of course, Hermione and Ron were plotted out from the beginning, in my opinion (sorry to those of you who liked H/H) and I'm hoping she finally gets them snogging in the last book! Ginny and Harry - I also felt this was foreshadowed a bit, especially just in the fact that Ginny was the first girl born to the Weasley family in (I think) 3 generations. Makes you go "hmmm..." If anyone remembers being a teenager love can take you quite quickly! Obsession seeps in without any warning and then WHAM you're wrapped up in it. I think that's how it was with Harry. It just hit him like a ton of hormonal bricks. And I was ok with that. Loved Lupin and Tonks, as well. Lupin needs some lovin' in his life. I'm a sucker for romance so I thoroughly enjoyed all those passages, including Won Won and Lavendar. Afterall, the boy will need a little bit of training before tackling Hermione. LOL! Though I have a sneaky suspicion Tonks wasn't always Tonks in the story... I'm not sure, but isn't there something to the fact that you CAN'T change your patronus because that's what makes it unique to the person casting it? Otherwise, it would seem you could send out any kind of patronus and impersonate someone elses. ?? My predictions for 7: 1.) Harry lives and goes back to Hogwarts as the DADA instructor 2.) Ron and Hermione finally get to snogging and live on, as well 3.) (Gee, I want everyone to live!) However, Draco gets it, but actually because he's defending Harry 4.) Harry slays Snape even after hearing the truth - but he doesn't believe it 5.) RAB is Regulas Black 6.) Harry is NOT a horcrux, but will think he is and this will cause him much grief in thinking he has to off himself 7.) Ginny will continue to help Harry (thank you Spider-Man... Heh) 8.) The locket at Grimmauld Place (unless Mundungus stole it...) is one of the horcruxes 9.) Speaking of Mundungus... I think he might help Harry find the other horcruxes, as well 10.) Fawkes will make an appearance, perhaps to heal Harry when we all think he's about to die 11.) DD's bro will prove to be a mighty wizard and big help to Harry 12.) We will, hopefully, learn a LOT about James and Lily's family past. I was disappointed there wasn't much about them in the new book 13.) Harry will discover what's behind the door at the Ministry of Magic where LOVE is kept or he'll at least try to find out thinking it might be the weapon that helps him destroy V. 14.) Harry will be tempted to cross into the veil thinking he can return... 15.) I do think Snape had a thing for Lily and hated James even more so for taking her away from him. Perhaps they were potions buddies and that got him started... And that it was Lily who gave him the nickname "Half Blood Prince." 16.) Either the Weasleys or Harry will discover they are the true heirs of Gryffindor - I'm betting on Harry... But... 17.) Ron will truly become a force to be reckoned with ... I think the whole "Weasley is our king" chant is a foreshadowing of sorts... 18.) Neville will be the one to actually destroy Voldy and not Harry, living up to the prophesy none-the-less. 19.) We haven't heard the last from Gilderoy Lockhart... 20.) Bill and Fleur's wedding will take place, but I don't think anything horrible will happen there. There's going to be a need for pleasant chapters, romance and humor in the course of book 7, which will be even darker and more frightening than all the books combined. 21.) We learn a LOT more about Petunia and that she knows more than she lets on to Harry and she actually apologizes for being such a shmuck to Harry. Jellocat From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 22 19:44:13 2005 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Jo Raggett) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:44:13 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134212 Sherry wrote: >>>>>>> The more I think about it all, the more and more deeply I am convinced that Harry will turn out to be right about Snape in the end, and Dumbledore sadly wrong. Harry is the hero; it is his story. It has to be that way, I think. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Aggie now: I had never thought of things this way before and what you say makes absolute sense! I do hope that this is not the case tho as it implies that children, with their limited view on things, are right and adults, who see the bigger picture and can rationally assess all the facts, are wrong! I DO agree that Harry IS the hero and that these ARE his books and if JKR had declared that these were children's books then I would agree, however they are not and whilst it is a lesson to believe in your own instincts I don't see that happening here. JKR has made DD too big a character to be wrong about Snape, it just makes a mockery of him. I realise that she has put the grain of doubt about his fallability but this would just be HUGE!!! I guess only time will tell!! Aggie From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:50:17 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:50:17 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134213 Sherry Gomes wrote: "So, this brings me back to the point. Whose story is this? It is Harry's story. If we are going to believe that Dumbledore was absolutely right to trust Snape, then that seems to take some of the hero mantle away from Harry." Del replies: OK, this is something I *really* don't understand. It's not the first time something along that line is expressed, and I still don't get it. Basically, it's something like "nobody else can do anything better than Harry because it would take away from Harry". Huh?? It's definitely not in *my* definition of a hero that he must be better than everyone else. In fact, I personally find those heroes whose instincts are always so much better than anyone else's mightily *boring*. In my idea, the hero is simply the one who has the desire, the ability and the opportunity to accomplish the Task, and who goes and does it. The desire often comes from his having a pure heart and/or from having suffered more than most other people at the hands of Evil. The abilities are usually a combination of inborn talents and developed skills. And the opportunity is usually a mix of sheer luck, useful people/artifacts, and just plain "being in the right place at the right time". But the greatest heroes, for me, are those who are always very human, who make mistakes, who fail sometimes, but who always try again. That's why I like Harry as a hero. But the idea of some super-human Harry, who would instinctively know better than anyone else, irritates and bores me. Yes the stories are about Harry, but that does not in any way mean that he must be the only one being right now, or that he can't be way wrong sometimes still. JKR made him be very wrong in the past, and I really don't see why she should suddenly make him be always right. Especially considering the *reasons* Harry always mistrusted Snape: 1. Harry's scar hurt the first time he looked at Snape (but it wasn't Snape's fault) 2. Snape is nasty to Harry. I mean, it's not like Snape is that fluffy bunny that everyone loves but Harry can't help mistrusting. Hating Snape, mistrusting Snape, that's the *easy* way! And we've been told a few times that in the Potterverse, one should be wary of the easy way... Sherry Gomes wrote: "i think it will be a far better twist, to have Harry proved right in the end." Del replies: It would be awfully boring, in my opinion... Let's see. Harry in PS/SS: Snape is a bad guy! Harry in CoS: Snape is a bad guy! Harry in PoA: Snape is a bad guy! Harry in GoF: Snape is a bad guy! Harry in OoP: Snape is a bad guy! Harry in HBP: Snape is a bad guy! And, oh, it turns out Harry was right. Boooo-ring! Not to mention that if Harry is completely right and Snape is simply completely evil, then the "twist" did not come "in the end", but at the beginning of the 6th book. Very lame, IMO. Sherry Gomes wrote: "The more I think about it all, the more and more deeply I am convinced that Harry will turn out to be right about Snape in the end, and Dumbledore sadly wrong. Harry is the hero; it is his story. It has to be that way, I think." Del replies: But DD is the wise mentor of the hero, and usually the mentor is right, *especially* when everything seems to point to the fact that he is wrong. That's one of the major points of the mentor: to teach the hero to look beyond appearances. And Harry so far has almost NEVER looked beyond the appearance of Snape. In OoP, he was shocked to discover that Snape was sometimes bullied 2-on-1 by his father and godfather. In HBP, Harry discovers that Young Snape, even though involuntarily, can be very useful to him (Harry). Harry is barely beginning to understand that Snape is much more complex than just Bad-Mean-Professor-Snape, and I think and hope this will continue in Book 7. Just my opinion, obviously. Del From slmuth at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:18:42 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:18:42 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134214 Schumar: I think within the gloating that Snape was also trying to warn Harry... or maybe even see if he could remember back about legilimency and know that Dumbledore was instructing Snape to kill him. Anyone else agree? Annette: Yep, Me for one :) Also, SS wouldn't let Harry use an unforgivable curse. Blocking him and instructing him to 'remember to close your mind'. OK so it wasn't said very kindly , but he was doing him a favour , big time. Sort of like, 'when it's your turn to fight LV not me, block your mind !' Sanpe don't do pretty but he has always protected Harry and knows his destiny. > Annette. Now Janeway: If Snape was giving Harry instructions, it looks like JKR doesn't intend for him to follow them. This is from her Mugglenet/Leaky interview, part 2: "I had an interesting discussion, I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry's problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories." So Harry has "pretty much given up on doing or attempting" Occlumency for some pretty integral psychological reasons. Sounds like once again Snape just doesn't "get" Harry. To me his insistence that Harry play by LV's rules (mouth shut, mind closed) doesn't sound like valuable advice from a caring mentor. Janeway From auruor at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 19:53:31 2005 From: auruor at yahoo.co.uk (auruor) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:53:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134215 Hi all. This is my first time doing this so apologies if I do it wrong. I have a theory, sorry if others have already said this, Dumbledore isn't dead it was Slughorn in the lightning tower. Not just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used several times by Slughorn. Secondly JK doesn't explain what Slughorn is with reference to him being a chair/sofa at Spinners end. As I said my first time! Auruor. From kjones at telus.net Fri Jul 22 20:12:59 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:12:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cave In-Reply-To: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <42E1534B.70309@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134216 Cathy Drolet wrote: > I may have missed this while I was off-list avoiding spoilers. If it > has already been discussed then forgive me, list-elves! > > These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he was > being force-fed potion by HP. > > "I don't want...don't make me > Don't like ... want to stop > No. I don't want to ... I don't want to ... let me go > Make it stop, make it stop > No, no, no ... no ... I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to > It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop. I know I did > wrong. Oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again. > Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything > No more, please, no more > I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! > Kill me!" > > I can't be the only one who thinks there is more to this than random > ravings of a potion/poison drinker? Is this snippets of the argument > that DD had with Snape (overheard, partially, by Hagrid)? Or snippets > of a conversation between DD and Snape after Snape realized what LV was > going to do with the prophecy information? Kathy writes: Actually, I posted on this a while ago, but it has not really been discussed. I believe that the first line is when the Prince family forced Snape into the Deatheaters. The second and third lines are Snape's traumatic response to the DE activities. The fourth line is Snape being Marked. The fifth line is Snape's confession to Dumbledore and being sent back to spy. The sixth line is is almost a repeat of what Harry remembers his mother saying before she was killed. The seventh line is Snape's response to being sent back to Voldemort after his rise. The last line is Snape's response to learning that he must kill Dumbledor. I think he wants to die instead and I think that is why he took the Unbreakable Vow. He saw it as a way out. The last line is Dumbledore's order to Snape. It was all capitals and did not look like the rest. I think that Dumbledore has been holding Snape's memories and feelings about what he is doing since he began spying before James and Lily's death. I think that the funeral fire was the spell to release those memories back to Snape after what will probably be his last interrogation by Voldemort as he will now be trusted completely. KJ From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 22 20:20:18 2005 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Jo R) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:20:18 -0000 Subject: SOOOOOO many questions! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134217 When DD and H relived the memory of LV wanting the job of DADA teacher, (or just checking out the Founder's goodies in DD's office) was that the year before Harry started at Hogwarts? I'm SURE that the twins had said that no-one had kept the DADA job for more than a year since they had been at school yet this was after LV had been defeated at Godric's Hollow! I cannot even remember which book it is in let alone remember the quote - any help? I'm thinking I'm going mad here!!! Also, (I KNOW Snape's been done to death but I can't fathom this bit out AT ALL)WHY oh WHY did Snape attack Flitwick??? I'm of the "Snape's ultimately on the side of good" camp but this is the one piece of the jigsaw that just does not fit!! Does this mean that he IS just a bad guy and that's it or that Flitwick's a bad guy, or Maybe Flitwick knew of the plan and was going to try and stop Snape. I'm just soooo confused! Aggie From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:28:46 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:28:46 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil... NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134218 Julie: > I really hope there's a "more than meets the eye" explanation for D'dore's death and > Snape's behavior -- because the overt explanation (all is as it seems) is extremely boring > writing. This in fact, to me, is probably the single strongest argument FOR "more than > meets the eye." > > I hope I'm not wrong. > Schumar: I too hope you're not wrong. Not only would "all is as it seems" be "boring"... but it doesn't fit with JKR underlying themes of making choices and choosing love. I don't think ANY of the death eaters would have believed Snape could kill DD with anything other than Avada Kedavra, and I am satisfied believing that Dumbledore and Snape had this all planned out. Plus... if Snape wasn't on Dumbledore's side all along, he would not have cared who else got killed for him to kill Dumbledore/ protect Draco. If Snape really WAS evil... Flitwick would have died, Hermione and Luna would have died, he wouldn't have stopped others from torturing Harry, etc. I still don't believe that anyone other than DD, Harry, Hermione and Ron know what the prophecy said completely (because Snape didn't hear the whole thing...) so if he really was evil and meaning his reason for stopping the death eater from using crucio on Harry, then I think he would have grabbed Harry along with Draco and delivered him to Voldemort himself. Without Dumbledore, and with those who allowed him to go past with Draco still thinking Snape is on their side, no one would have stopped him. Before I got to the end, I did wonder if Dumbledore was wrong about Snape because, as he said, being cleverer than most men his mistakes tend to be more catastrophic. This might be a clever ruse to get us to doubt Snape and think Dumbledore's trust was misplaced... but I stand by all the reasons I have stated in other posts that lead me to believe Snape is still on the side of the Order. Marianne S. From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:25:13 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:25:13 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134219 UNIX4EVR wrote: > > If Snape knew about the plan to penetrate Hogwarts via the cabinet > why didn't he warn DD? No one knew that Harry and DD were leaving > except for Ron, Hermione and. . .Snape? > > No, unfortunately I agree that Snape really is all bad. And I'm > beginning to wonder if (as some here have suggested) Snape isn't the > real villain of the piece. . .not Voldemort. Yes it is true that if Snape knew about the plan to penetrate Hogwarts via the cabinet and didn't inform Dumbledore, that would be evil. Here's the problem: We can't really be sure that Snape knows what Draco's mission even is until Snape arrives at the tower. The only things we can be certain of prior to that is that Snape knew that Draco had been given a task by Voldemort, and Draco didn't want Snape involved in it. In chapter 2, Snape claims to know all about Draco's task, but notice that he never actually states what the task is. He may very well be bluffing, hoping to learn more about it. That is exactly what someone who is spying for the Order would be likely to do in that situation. snipsnapsnurr From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:32:20 2005 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (mehtare_lingolien) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:32:20 -0000 Subject: Murder? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134220 Bhavna said: "I think Snape was acting to free himself of the sins he committed against the person who once saved his life - James Potter - splitting his own soul on DD's orders." It has been a few years since I have last received and read a post from this list, but I must type now. We all know that Snape killed DD. However, there are many forms of killing besides murder. I recall DD specifically saying that to split your soul, you must commit murder. Therefore, since I (and many others) believe that it was with DD's permission that Snape killed him, the act that Snape performed does not fall under the definition of murder, and therefore Snape's soul is most likely still intact. This, of course, bars the possibility that he has performed any murders in the past while acting as a DE in the last war. -kel From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Jul 22 20:34:21 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:34:21 -0500 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation References: <1122060078.1576.34126.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c58efc$c1a86ab0$0288cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 134221 > Geoff: > I'm sorry if I'm being thick but, in my UK copy (pp.552-553), > Dumbledore's comment begins with "Come over to the right side, > Draco...". > > It lacks your quoted first sentence which removes the point of your > theory....Can you point me to the "He cannot kill you if you are > already dead" quote, please? It's in the US edition, page 591-592. Right after Malfoy says "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." The US edition has Dumbledore saying "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." After that it continues as the UK edition (I got mine today, so I can compare) until "...likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me--forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we captured and killed your mother--it's what they would do themselves, after all." After that it continues as the UK edition with "Your father is safe at the moment..." Richelle From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:39:05 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:39:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus (was: Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134222 Gwennie wrote: > I think it must have something to do with a person's fondest memory. Because you have to concentrate so hard on what makes you happiest to produce a patronus, it makes sense that the form it takes would have something to do with someone or something you love. Carol responds: Which brings me back to Snape--not his typically snarky response to Tonks, but the very fact that he has a Patonus, as he *must* have in order to communicate with the other Order members. (JKR refused to reveal what it was for fear of giving too much away.) Based on what we already know about Patronuses (Patroni?) and on JKR's recent remarks about them on her website, this fact has some interesting implications. First, despite appearances, Snape must have at least one genuinely happy memory in order to be able to cast one. This memory can't relate to the DEs or Voldemort because a Patronus is inherently opposed to Dark Magic. (A Patronus, in JKR's words, is "highly resilient to interference from Dark wizards.") I doubt that a real DE could cast one. Second, other people's Patronuses would refuse to take messages to Snape if he were genuinely evil because, being a DADA device or "Dark detector," they would attack him rather than delivering the message. I wonder (in contrast to my previous bitter speculations on Harry or Wormtail using Snape's own spell to kill him) whether Snape's Patronus will tell Harry that Snape is not evil after all. Suppose Harry is helpless, deprived of his wand and glasses, about to be victimized by a Dementor, and Snape drives off the Dementor with his own Patronus, which turns out to be Dumbledore? Snape would have just enough time to tell Harry the truth about Dumbledore's death before he was AK'd by Voldemort himself. At any rate, I prefer that version of Snape's fate and character to what I previously envisioned. Along the same lines, I don't think Snape would have showed up in the Foe Glass in GoF had he not really been a foe of Fake!Moody, whom he knew by that time to be a Death Eater and not the auror Alastor Moody. Carol, who has used her last post for the day and is now reduced to lurking again From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 20:41:29 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:41:29 -0000 Subject: Trelawney and birthdays (mix-ups?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134223 I should have my books at hand before posting - I know. Happens so that right now I don't - and if I wait with the posting I will have forgotten about it.... So... In one book Trelawney adresses Harry in class and asks if it isn't true he's born around Christmas (or at least at winter-time - sorry I don't remember). Harry laughs - of course he's not born at winter. In HBP it turns out Tom Riddle is born on New Year .... Could Trelawney somehow have gotten some sort of her mistaken birthdate for Harry from Harry himself? Did she look at Harry and sensed the part (Horcrux) of Tom Riddle inside him and therefore made the birthday- error? Inge From trekkie at stofanet.dk Fri Jul 22 20:51:45 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:51:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death References: Message-ID: <005101c58eff$2bdebef0$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 134224 ----- Original Message ----- From: "auruor" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death > Hi all. This is my first time doing this so apologies if I do it wrong. > I have a theory, sorry if others have already said this, Dumbledore > isn't dead it was Slughorn in the lightning tower. Not just a wild > idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore saying "oho" in the cave > was unusual. It is an expression used several times by Slughorn. > Secondly JK doesn't explain what Slughorn is with reference to him > being a chair/sofa at Spinners end. As I said my first time! > > Auruor. Oho! So Slughorn is a metamorphmagus perhaps? hmm.. I like this thought. That "oho" in the cave... clever spotted. There's an awful lot of "shapeshifing" possible in HBP, also with the vat of polyjuice potion that Draco gets hold on for Crabbe and Goyle. And the idea that the Pince at the funeral is actually Snape, disguised behind the knee-long thick veil. And also, I do think Tonks is a metamorphmagus capable of more than just changing her nose and hair. Food for thoughts indeed! ~Trekkie From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 22 20:47:32 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:47:32 -0000 Subject: Just an odd silly thought. In-Reply-To: <20050722174042.11607.qmail@web30509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cat wrote: > And I'm not buying that the whole WW didn't know Tom and Lord Voldemort were the same person... Dumbldore recognized him when applying for the Dark Arts position, as I'm sure many of his fellow students would have. I did wonder also if that was a disconnect with what we were told previously (I think in CoS). Didn't Dumbledore say there that by the time LV emerged and his power was recognized, nobody connected him with the handsome, successful schoolboy he had been? Yet he could hardly get anyone to give up memories of Tom Riddle for the Pensieve, so they MUST have known that the two were identical, or else why the fear? All I can think is that maybe he was referring to his *physical* alteration - he no longer physically resembled the boy he had been, and people who had known Tom Riddle as a boy would not have been able to recognize him later in life. By the way, that was a very chilling little touch Rowling threw in there, when she said that he was physically changing because he was losing pieces of his soul. I don't know why, but it sounds even scarier than the Picture of Dorian Gray. Wanda From jmnabers at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:49:14 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (jmnabers) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:49:14 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134226 Del writes: Basically, it's something like "nobody else can do anything better than Harry because it would take away from Harry". I don't think it's saying that at all. I think the point is that if Harry is to really defeat Voldemort in the end, he will have to rely totally and utterly on his own instincts. The way I see it, Harry has had 2 mentors. Sirius, who agreed with him that Snape was not to be trusted; and Dumbledore, who disagreed and trusted Snape totally. Both of these men are now gone. In book 7, Harry will have to deal with Snape on his own terms, and without thier influence. I don't find that boring, I find it totally and absolutely necessary if we are to believe in Harry as "the chosen one." He can't rely on the convictions of others, only on himself. And to the idea that it would be "boring" if Harry were right, well IMHO, it would be just as boring if Dumbledore were always right. Isn't the amazing things about these books the fact that NO ONE is always completely good and completely right; likewise, no one is completely evil or completely wrong. Even Voldemort has a tragic past to help us understand him. In fact, I find it an amazing twist---we are told for so long that Snape is above reproach that we find Harry a bit silly for always suspecting him. Like Hermoine and Ron, we roll our eyes at his insistence that Snape is up to something. In fact, Harry was right---but the interesting question is: from when? Has Snape been a double agent all along, or was he turned back to the Death Eaters at some later point? When was that? Why? That to me is a pretty interesting thought. One last comment: I really don't understand why Dumbledore would be made a "fool" by trusting Snape. He never feared death, and he embraced love. He says himself his own mistakes are bigger than others because he is so much more powerful. Dumbledore never considered himself infalliable...so why should we? EVERYONE makes mistakes, and if Snape is truly bad (as I believe) that doesn't make me think any less of Dumbledore at all. The ability to trust and love ohter people is more heroic than foolish, even if you are proven wrong in the end. Jennifer From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Fri Jul 22 20:42:24 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:42:24 -0000 Subject: The Astute Mouth-Organ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134227 "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > I haven't understood Harry's and Dumbledore's exchange about mouth- > organ which DD even calls astute? WHat's a mouth organ got to do with > destruction of the ring? I had to read it twice, but I think Harry expected to see some object from the memory he had just watched, like last time. He didn't know the ring had been a horcrux, he just saw it in the memory, then on the table. So, he expected to see a souvenier from the TRJr. memory, too. Why the mouth organ rather than the yo-yo, I don't know. DD calls his observation astute because he understood Harry didn't mean precisely the mouth organ, but any object from the box. HogwartsMom From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:41:01 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:41:01 -0000 Subject: SOOOOOO many questions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134228 Aggie: Also, (I KNOW Snape's been done to death but I can't fathom this bit > out AT ALL)WHY oh WHY did Snape attack Flitwick??? I'm of the "Snape's > ultimately on the side of good" camp but this is the one piece of the > jigsaw that just does not fit!! Does this mean that he IS just a bad > guy and that's it or that Flitwick's a bad guy, or Maybe Flitwick knew > of the plan and was going to try and stop Snape. I'm just soooo > confused! Schumar: I believe that, and I know I've said that before, Snape "attacked" Flitwick in order to carry out his mission for Dumbledore. His attack was just a mere stunning, nothing unforgiveable or serious, where I believe a truly evil Snape would have killed Flitwick and the girls... 'cause obviously he wouldn't have cared about keeping his job and protecting any of the good people. It seems to me that Snape stunned Flitwick in much the same way Dumbledore stunned Harry... to keep him from interfering with what Must be done. Marianne S. From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Fri Jul 22 20:51:22 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:51:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134229 Carodave: > If Regulus was still alive, I feel sure that Kreacher would know, and > consider him (Regulus) to be his true master. > > Of course he would know. Dumbledore clearly explained to Harry about the order of inheritance of house elves. No way would Kreacher have referred to Sirius as his master if his older brother was still alive and absolutely no no no way would he have taken an order from Harry. I really thought that bit was so clear as it was referring to this all being tied into magic, not just a 'knowledge' of someone being alive or dead. And we all knwo how greta the magic of house elves is, even though they are not allowed to use it. Wapp13 From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 20:50:36 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:50:36 -0000 Subject: Perhaps Snape switched the horcrux locket? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134230 Regarding the fake horcrux locket containing the note from R.A.B, I have a theory: Perhaps the real horcrux locket WAS retrieved by Dumbledore and Harry from the cave (as Harry mentions thinking the locket seemed smaller than the one he saw in the cave). But sometime between then and Dumbledore's death the real locket was switched with the fake one. This could have been done by Snape when he escaped with Draco before Harry caught up with them in Hogwart's grounds, because Dumbledore's body was lying below the tower. This could be part of the whole 'Snape is really a triple agent and is really on the good side' and maybe Snape has a plan to destroy the real locket. Could this make sense? Anyone have any other theories on this?? Rita From magalud at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:52:22 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722185222.91232.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134231 Magalud: Harry: "Yes" Snape" Yes, sir" Harry: "You dont have to call me sir, Professor." OR: "Excuse me, are you the imprint of a departed soul???" Cracks me up! magalud SnapeFest 2005! Segunda parte em breve Orgulhosa keeper da voz sexy de Severus Snape e do seu sorrisinho sarc?stico My fanfic: http://www.geocities.com/snapesecrets __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 22 20:59:47 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:59:47 -0000 Subject: Why LV Wanted a Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynete" wrote: > Just couldn't believe Lord Thingy showed up at Hogwarts fot an > interview for the DADA job. No resume, no suit. Thinking along > Dumbledore's lines: why? what does he really want? We know he's looking > for souvieners of the Founders. Wouldn't the Sorting Hat be the > ultimate souvenir? > Or Fawkes. Wouldn't he have been clever to have used Fawkes as a Horcrux? He'd be REALLY immortal then, since Fawkes would always be reborn after every death! Wanda From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 21:03:37 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:03:37 -0000 Subject: My First Comments! In-Reply-To: <42DD0857.8090403@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134233 heather the buzzard: > 7. Nearly all of Draco's ideas actually came from the 'good' side. The > idea for the poison, the communication via coins, etc. Wonder if he > realizes the significance of that -- he got more 'help' from the good > guys than he ever did from the bad guys... snippage > 11. RAB would seem to be Regulus Black, and I suspect that the real > necklace will turn out to have been one of the items stolen by > Mundungus, or possibly Kreacher. I wonder though, if DD was not able to > get the necklace by himself, how did Regulus? Did he have an accomplice? Not only did they come from the good guys, but they came from a Muggle- born, Hermy. Kreacher. Ha, not just a one-liner but one word. From kkersey at swbell.net Fri Jul 22 21:02:42 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:02:42 -0000 Subject: Reposted in hopes of new discussion: TBAY: Amanda Binns Explains It All In-Reply-To: <009501c58da8$888d2220$e659aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134234 Well, what do you know, I was in the process of writing a cute little TBAY that referenced *this very post* of yours, Amanda. I believe the theory was eventually acronymed C.H.O.P.: Cranium of Headmaster On Platter (credit to Constance Vigilance, I think). Myself, I'm still agnostic on the willing sacrifice providing lasting protection theory. It would be enough for me that he died keeping Harry safe, period. No spells or ancient magic or any of that needed. Elisabet From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:15:05 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape, Phineas and courage Message-ID: <20050722191505.43701.qmail@web60422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134235 Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but on page 494 (AM. ED.) : "I thought," said Phineas Nigellus, stroking his pointed beard, "that to belong in Gryffindor Houseyou were supposed to be brave? It looks to me as though you would have been better off in my own house. We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." "It's not my own neck I'm saving," said Harry tersely,... "Oh I see," said Phinius Nigellus, still striking his beard. This is no cowardly flight--you are being noble." JKR, in her interview with Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron, stated that the sorting hat has never made a mistake. Doesn't this, taken together, indicates that Snape, being a Slytherin, acted to save his own skin. It does not necessarily indicate ESE Snape, or deny a future redemptive act by him. And while he may be couragous, the dominant characteristic of a Slytherin is self-preservation, so Snape merely acted according to his nature. However, on page 521 Am. Ed., Snape does call Sirius a coward, because Sirius, in Snape's view, is hiding, avoiding harms way, to save his own skin. But Snape know Sirius is doing this under orders. In hurling his retort to Harry, does Snape hope that Harry will make just this connection? Just some random thoughts, Larry ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:21:32 2005 From: imthruthelookinglass at yahoo.com (imthruthelookinglass) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:21:32 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D983375187@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134236 Tonks_op wrote: ( the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and starts_ what?? Remembering something that is from his life, or channeling a memory of someone else's?? And what memory is it? big snip Is he drinking the liquid out of a pensive and someone's memory is in it?? Who's? LEH replies: I really like the idea of the basin actually being a type of pensieve. Could it possibly be that the basin refills itself with the memories of the last person to drink the liquid? Perhaps Dumbledore is experiencing the memories of the mysterious RAB. That obviously painful memory - sounds like someone being crucioed to me - would certainly explain why RAB was out to ruin Voldemort. Peekaboo: Ive heard "a few" suggestions that the bowl in the cave may, in fact, have been a pensieve. This reminded me of a thought I had concerning Snape and his innocence or guilt: I had been pondering how, if Snape was truly with DD, how he would prove this to the OOTP (in necessary or even desired). I had thought perhaps HIS pensieve might hold the proof. That he would leave word behind through the memory of his agreement with DD to kill him if need be. But what of the bowl in the cave? What if this is indeed a pensieve holding the memories of the last drinker? Then is it possible it could hold a portion of Dumbledore's memory, and with it possible clues as to Snapes true nature? Unlikely, as it is obviously a - if not the most - painful memory the drinker has experienced that is left behind. Maybe this will be the answer to the destruction of Dumbledore's hand considering that question never was answered? Of course this could all be left in Dumbledore's pensieve. I had read a comment that it was possible all memory stored in a penseive would be lost if the owner passed. However, Dumbledore had bottled memories of many people so this probably is not so. Maybe this is how we will hear from DD in the future. Maybe this is how so many of our questions will be answered. Peekaboo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lauriafern at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:37:39 2005 From: lauriafern at yahoo.com (Laurie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:37:39 -0000 Subject: The Horcrux At Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134237 Hi, Long time reader, first time poster.... I've been frantically trying to keep up with the postings on this list......an impossible task, I fear. I have been paying particular attention to the ones about the Horcruxes, as I find those the most intruiging. I have made some assumptions (yes, I remember the consequences of making ASSupmtions :D ), and a possible theory that I have yet to see mentioned. My Assumptions: >From what I remember from HBP, the creating of a Horcrux is an intentional act. In other words, you can do something really foul that will split your soul, but you won't create a Horcrux unless you intend to create one. To my mind, that means you have a specific spell/ritual that must be performed. It makes sense to me that this spell/ritual would need to be completed BEFORE you commit your evil act. In essence, it is the evil act that seals/completes the horcrux spell. My theory: According to DD, it is possible that LV went to Godric's Hollow intending to create a Horcrux, using the murder(s) there to seal it. He's found his magical object (IMO, he has that picked out well in advance), he's completed the whatever ritual is necessary to make the object ready to receive a piece of his soul; He then journey's to Godric's Hollow to commit murder. IMO, it was James' murder that created the Horcrux. Then, when LV tried to kill Harry, the spell rebounded because of Lily's sacrifice, and LV's body was blasted, leaving his soul as an incorporeal being. The horcrux was dropped on the floor of the Potter's house, and there it sits among the wreckage, waiting for Harry to find it....... Laurie (yes, another one.....we're everywhere.....) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 22 21:05:23 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:05:23 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > So Harry has "pretty much given up on doing or attempting" > Occlumency for some pretty integral psychological reasons. Sounds > like once again Snape just doesn't "get" Harry. To me his insistence > that Harry play by LV's rules (mouth shut, mind closed) doesn't > sound like valuable advice from a caring mentor. > It could still be a 'teaching moment', but not quite in the same way. Snape could be telling him, 'Look, this isn't working, and it's never going to work - you can't do it THIS WAY. Stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get a different result, because you won't. You have to try a different method or when you face LV you're going to be killed.' So he's not trying to make him better at what he's doing, he's showing him that what he's doing is hopeless and he's got to find a different way. Wanda From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:06:08 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:06:08 -0000 Subject: Snape: Evil, not evil, or the third option? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134239 I've seen a lot of speculation, and I have to say in general: where's some of the nuance? I'm disappointed in y'all. It's either "Snape is still good after all these years" or "Snape is evil and always has been". How about: Snape has been playing both sides for years, or Snape went good but then turned against the Order? First off, I agree that the immediate narrative function of ch. 2 (Spinner's End) is to drop our jaws and make us go "That can't be real; no, it's too convenient." However, it's always fun to consider the possibility that things are being hidden in plain sight. So why lock ourselves into considering everything in the chapter either obviously true or complete BS spun merely for the benefit of Bella and Cissy? Snape's reaction to Narcissa is, natch, really rather odd. She pulls a romance heroine in distress on him, and it works--when he probably could have done as Bella says and wormed out of the committment? Very, very odd. *waves to Neri* What I offer to you is this: Snape is the eavesdropper, reports back to his boss, and finds out that the Potters are targeted. We are told remorse over this leads him to Dumbledore's side. Harry scoffs because he knows what Snape thinks of James. Lily is left prominent by non-mention in all of this. [I posted thoughts about this whole thing at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132993]. But we have another possibility; there's a double game going on here. Voldemort could well have *told* Snape to go and play the penitent; and there may well have been enough truth in Snape's story that a Legilimens like Dumbledore could have been fooled by an Occlumens like Snape. Hence, Snape is in the perfect position to ride things out. Fast forward to Harry's arrival at school. Snape is playing a careful game, but is pretty much on the side of the angels for books 1 and 2. Jump to book 3, which is where we get canonical statements like Snape looking at Dumbledore with resentment, and his "only hope DD isn't going to interfere" line. As Pippin keeps telling us, resentment is a powerful motivator, and the result (if you don't want to wash the dishes) is something of a Maverick!Snape, for whatever reason. Book 4 Snape is wary because he knows things are going on, and keeps up reporting to Dumbledore and getting info. At the end of the book, he goes back to Voldemort two hours later and manages to not be dead. Now, book 5, we have DoubleAgent!Snape out for himself on the loose. We have little idea what he's doing for the Order that has actual, concrete results. We know he's possibly a pretty lousy Occlumency teacher, and there's the other intriguing possibility of that time gap at the end of the book (if I could only find post numbers!). Very gratified he is to have an old enemy knocked off. Book 6 Snape is playing a very dangerous game, and one that I don't think anyone has enough evidence to completely clarify. But I hope I've argued that Snape being evil at the end of book 6 (for in JKR's world, out utterly for yourself and evil are much teh same thing) does not have to mean that he was always utterly evil. Why do I like this? It's BANG-y, to have Harry have been wrong (and genuinely so) and then have Harry be right, for once. It reinforces the idea of "don't trust in anyone's assurances as if they were received truth," and puts emphasis on how Dumbledore never shared information that affected other people (and thus they had some right to know). Is it telling that DD refuses to discuss why he trusts Snape during his big mea culpa at the end of OotP? I think it may be. It makes this Snape a tragic figure, who had a place to atone for his crimes as a DE, and gave it up out of resentment and a desire for self-advancement. It's not airtight--what is?--but it's more nuanced than a straight read of Spinner's End Snape, and it fills in holes that RightHandMan! Snape (and per interview, DD has no confidantes) doesn't. -Nora notes that, in response to Carol's speculation, all Patroni so far seen have been animals, and thinks she remembers an answer to that question somewhere From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 21:11:47 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:11:47 -0000 Subject: HBP Potions book and Lilly's inherited talent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134240 Hagrid: > 2) The directions that Harry followed reminded Slughorn of Lilly's > talent. So did Lilly and Snape swap notes on Potions, etc? Tone: If you were trying to endear yourself to somebody, would you relate their skills to a mother he loves but never knew, or the teacher he hates that abuses him every chance he gets? Slug was just playing the correct cards to win over Harry, or atleast trying... I seriously doubt any SHIP between Lily and Snape, though it seems more and more likely that Snape fell for Lily from afar. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:18:24 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722211824.94929.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134241 --- Tonks wrote: > Calling all detectives.. all fellow Aurors. There > are clues, but I > am very confused about them. I am very confused > about a number of > things. > > 1. the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and > starts_ what?? > Remembering something that is from his life, or > channeling a memory > of someone else's?? And what memory is it? > DD says: "I don't want to, don't make me don't > like want to stop > no I don't want to I don't want to let me go > make it stop make > it stop no, no, no, I can't, don't make me, I don't > want to, It's > all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop, I > know I did wrong, > oh please make it stop and Ill never, never again > Don't hurt them, > don't hut them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt > me instead > please, please, please, please, no not that, not > that, I'll do > anything I want to die! I want to die! Make it > stop, make it stop, > I want to die! KILL ME!" See, when I first started reading, I thought maybe it was the memories of the children Tom Riddle crucioed (well, he said he could make them "hurt" and that's what I thought of). But I'm not sure the "I know I did wrong" fits there. And the "don't hurt them . . .hurt me instead" definitely doesn't fit in with that. (I considered experiencing Riddle's memories (thinking he'd enjoy reliving them by drinking the potion), but that defintiely doesn't fit with the experiencing pain. We can't even be sure it's all one person's experiences (Dumbledore's or anyone else's). The "I don't like" and the "I'll never, never again" definitely make me think of a child, though. Something horrible from Dumbledore's childhood, maybe - the potion makes you relive your worst memory? Seems like there's got to be more to it than that. Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 21:21:06 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:21:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Pirate Ginny (Something is not right) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134242 In a message dated 7/22/2005 11:48:38 AM Central Standard Time, jaylenegwallace at aol.com writes: She and Ron always carefully consider Harry's warnings, at least the first few times he brings it up. But, they give good reasons for doubting him. After a while, they just dismiss him as being obsessed with Draco. Which never made sense to me. Ok, I can see Hermione ignoring him after a while but Ron was always ready to blame Draco (and Snape) for anything that happened anywhere. Why stop listening to Harry now? Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Fri Jul 22 21:23:46 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:23:46 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134243 Pekaboo: > I had been pondering how, if Snape was truly with DD, how he would > prove this to the OOTP (in necessary or even desired). I had thought > perhaps HIS pensieve might hold the proof. That he would leave word > behind through the memory of his agreement with DD to kill him if > need be. Snape hasn't got a pensieve. He uses Dumbledore's. I wondered though if anyone would believe him as he may be able to 'play' with his memories, as Slughorn did (Dumbledore said it was very poorly done but Snape would no doubt be much better at it), thus manipulating them to show what he wants the OotP to see. They in turn may nto believe the memories they see knowing what an accomplished manipulator Snape is. Wapp13 From neisha_saxena at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:07:14 2005 From: neisha_saxena at yahoo.com (Neisha Saxena) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions Message-ID: <20050722210715.15946.qmail@web50912.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134245 Just finished the book Wed night (I'm on the US West Coast, so that could be Thursday morning for many of you). So, I'm just catching up on the posts. Sorry if I'm repeating what's been posted. Great predictions from many of you, esp Vivamus. However, I'm still wondering about some DD clues and how will we will ever learn the answers? The big kahunas are: What *about* that gleam in DD's eye at the end of GOF? (I know some of you have touched on this a bit, but I would love to hear more.) And why didn't DD kill Voldemort at the end of OOTP? Was it just because he can't be killed in that way? But, DD says there are things worse than death. What would those be for Voldemort? Do we already know the answers? I can't parse them out, using my little sleep-deprived pea brain. Theories, anyone? Also, what about Riddle's "pouring a little of [his] soul back into [Ginny]" in COS. Ginny can't be a Horcrux, can she? Although, he would have had to kill someone to make her a Horcrux. Thoughts on this? JKR wouldn't do something *that* awful, would she? In a book for kids? Thanks for the indulgence. I bow to your collective wisdom. Neisha, who is now going back to lurkage From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 21:31:50 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:31:50 -0000 Subject: R. Amelia Bones? (Re: RAB - NOT Regulus but a girl!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jo Raggett" wrote: > I've been trying to keep up with the list but it's impossible!! I > don't believe that this has been discussed tho! > > When I initially read the initials RAB my instant reaction was Amelia > Bones - I am known in RL by my last two initials JR but my real > initials are AJR. > > My second thought was Regulus and this does fit nicely in with Harry > inheriting #12 but it's just another thought to add to the pot. > > That could have been why she was murdered - horribly too! Maybe > Emmeline was her aide in getting the locket. She possibly did not > have had chance to inform DD that she had it before she was killed. > This could explain how DD knew where the locket was. Plus she was > murdered by LV himself! Regulus wasn't! > > It just seems strange that their deaths were mentioned at all. I > know that we would have expected some characters we had heard of to > have perished and that may account for it I suppose. Jen: This opens up all kinds of possibilities! For one thing, it would mean Voldemort knows that the locket was taken and **that means Dumbledore going to the cave was a trap**! Another thought--where did they hide the locket if indeed Bones and Vance retrieved it? One downside to the plot--why would they even go to the cave if not on DD's orders? Once they were murdered, DD would suspect they were found out and might do more research before he and Harry took off for the cave. Thinking more about it, I'd love for this to be true. We have no evidence Bones was in the Order, however. But to be killed personally by LV--what in the world did she do? Was it over the DE's in Azkaban? Jen, who waves at Aggie! From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:41:24 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:41:24 -0000 Subject: funniest line of the book!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134248 "I told her it was a Hungarian Horntail. Much more macho." Oh, Ginny, you slay me. Meri From oiboyz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 21:41:30 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:41:30 -0000 Subject: Music for Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134249 Fawkes' lament for Dumbledore is moving and heart-wrenching, an absolutely fitting way to mourn his death. It reminds me of a scene in The Two Towers where Aragorn and Legolas put off a very pressing task in order to sing over their friend's body. Taking time to mourn the dead is important; it's one way the heroes show their love and humanity, in contrast to the beastly enemies they fight. I wish we could hear the phoenix song that JKR describes, but since we can't, perhaps this board can look for a substitute? I've been trying. Today my iPod played "Isoldes Leibestod" from "Tristan und Isolde" by Wagner. It's an 8-minute orchestral piece, beautiful and slow, and halfway through the music begins to swell into truimphant crescendos that make me think of a transfiguration, of Harry catching a glimpse of a phoenix winging its way to heaven. It's a perfect song for that short scene, but not really what I want for Dumbledore's death as a whole-- it's glorious but not sad enough. (Perhaps "Isoldes Leibestod" will be perfect for the end of Book 7 when all our heroes exult in the death of Voldemort -- *right*, JKR? -- yet still feel the sadness of the price they had to pay.) I've also thought of the track "Rafiki Mourns" from the Lion King musical. Now there's a powerful song; Rafiki cries, "Oh, oh..." and the two syllables are full of gut-wrenching pain. She's mourning the great king Mustafa, who's been unjustly murdered while protecting young Simba, so the circumstances mirror the death of Dumbledore. (It's great played on stage too-- all the lionesses wailing and falling down while over them looms the threat of the wicked new king.) Yet that's not quite what I'm looking for either; it's a ritualistic Zulu mourning song and not what I'd expect to hear sung for Dumbledore... What I really want is a wordless lament, probably a classical music piece, that gets us as close as possible to the feeling Harry had when he listened to Fawkes singing. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Of course, no one's bound to my preferences; feel free to mention any song that reminds you of Dumbledore's death. Not that I need anything else to make me cry-- JKR's done that to me already. But I think we need a song to fit this occasion. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 21:42:04 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:42:04 -0000 Subject: Will LV make another Horcrux? was: Re: Snape & the Order... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134250 > Ciji: > > I'm also guessing that each horcrux has a different age or era > > of Voldemort's life embedded in it, for example, the diary (16 > > years), the cup (21 years) the locket (25 years) and so on. > > And I wouldn't be suprised if there were one horcrux with his > > childhood self in it, so kid Voldemort could start all over > > again. Isn't that a scary thought? > Rosmerta: > Very scary! ("Kid Voldemort" - sounds like a regular on the > wrestling programs!! Hee.) :D My turn: That would be very disturbing and bad for the wizarding community. Luckily, it could never happen since Voldie didn't know about soul splitting until he was in school and a teenager. My question is which murder was commited so soon after he learned about Horcruxes to create the diary? Also, it's not good that LV then learned how to create a Horcrux so quickly. Tone, who thinks he is pushing his 3-a-day limit. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 21:42:26 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:42:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] R. Amelia Bones? (Re: RAB - NOT Regulus but a girl!!) Message-ID: <6d.49bcad33.3012c242@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134251 In a message dated 7/22/2005 4:33:24 PM Central Standard Time, stevejjen at earthlink.net writes: When I initially read the initials RAB my instant reaction was Amelia > Bones - I am known in RL by my last two initials JR but my real > initials are AJR. Amelia Bones' middle name is Susan. From OOTP Chapter 8: The Hearing 'Interrogators: Cornelius Oswald Fudge, Minister for Magic; Amelia Susan Bones, Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement; Dolores Jane Umbridge, Senior Undersecretary to the Minister. Court Scribe, Percy Ignatius Weasley -' 'Witness for the defence, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumble-dore,' said a quiet voice from behind Harry, who turned his head so fast he cricked his neck. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Fri Jul 22 21:41:39 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:41:39 -0000 Subject: The most powerful magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134252 This just occurred to me. I'm sorry if it's already been brought up. Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry rebounded on him because of Lily's sacrificial love. By sacrificing himself to save three people-Draco and Narcissa Malfoy and Severus Snape (if that's what happened), Dumbledore has struck the most powerful blow against Voldemort that he could possibly make. We hear nothing more of Voldemort and the DEs at the end of book six, but I will be surprised if we don't learn in book seven that Voldemort was weakened by Dumbledore's sacrifice. This, I think, is the strongest argument for the It-was-all-according- to-plan theory. houyhnhnm From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:47:44 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:47:44 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134253 Jennifer wrote: "I think the point is that if Harry is to really defeat Voldemort in the end, he will have to rely totally and utterly on his own instincts. " Del replies: Don't forget that one big weakness of LV is that he NEVER relies on anyone else. He ALWAYS works alone. And even DD, in the way he acted, actually *reinforced* that warning: DD almost always acted alone, which prevented him from seeing his own mistakes, and from taking the *really* appropriate measures. Personally, I think that FAR from having to rely only on his own instincts, Harry will have to rely on and trust all those around him who want to help him. Remember that this is the way he finally got to the Philosopher's Stone in the first book: by relying on his two friends. Without them, he would never have made it to the Mirror room. I think this is a strong foreshadow of what will happen in Book 7: Harry will only advance in his quest insomuch as he lets others help him and do their part. Jennifer wrote: "The way I see it, Harry has had 2 mentors. Sirius, who agreed with him that Snape was not to be trusted; and Dumbledore, who disagreed and trusted Snape totally. Both of these men are now gone. In book 7, Harry will have to deal with Snape on his own terms, and without thier influence." Del replies: You're forgetting a third mentor: Lupin. Lupin who said that he neither likes nor dislikes Snape. Sirius was the mentor who refused to see any good in Snape no matter what. DD was the mentor who refused to let any criticism of Snape be voiced or considered. But Lupin is the middle way: the one who accepts all without letting his emotions get in the way. I sure hope Harry will learn to be more like Lupin and less like Sirius. Jennifer wrote: "And to the idea that it would be "boring" if Harry were right, well IMHO, it would be just as boring if Dumbledore were always right." Del replies: DD has already been shown to be wrong, so obviously he wasn't always right. And I've never argued that he's always right. I'm just saying that *as far as Snape is concerned*, I wouldn't dismiss DD's conviction so quickly. Jennifer wrote: "In fact, I find it an amazing twist---we are told for so long that Snape is above reproach that we find Harry a bit silly for always suspecting him." Del replies: I personally never found Harry silly for suspecting Snape. Suspecting Snape was always the *logical* thing to do, considering Snape's behaviour. The ONLY reason I refuse to condemn Snape for good is because DD believed in him. So if it turns out that DD was wrong and Snape was indeed evil, all this Snape-tension will go flat. How lame and boring IMO. It wouldn't be a twist at all for me, it would be a major literary disappointment: a balloon being inflated in each book and ending up popping, leaving nothing behind. What a waste. Just my opinion, obviously. Del From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:52:24 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:52:24 -0000 Subject: How did Draco get the hand of glory? In-Reply-To: <20050722171354.80983.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134255 Miss Melanie wrote: > I must admit that I don't really have my Chamber of Secrets around at the momment but I can't remember Draco actually getting the Hand of Glory at any point. Did his father actually allow him to buy the object? > **Marcela now: This might have been the item that Draco bought when Harry, Hermione and Ron were spying on him at Borgin&Burke's store. This is the scene: "...'Perhaps you'd like to take it now?' [Borgin] 'No, of course I wouldn't, you stupid little man, how would I look carrying that down the street? Just don't sell it.'..." HBP, Draco's Detour chapter. Marcela From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 21:55:36 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:55:36 -0000 Subject: The most powerful magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134256 houyhnhnm102 wrote: > By sacrificing himself to save three people-Draco and Narcissa Malfoy > and Severus Snape (if that's what happened), Dumbledore has struck the > most powerful blow against Voldemort that he could possibly make. We > hear nothing more of Voldemort and the DEs at the end of book six, but > I will be surprised if we don't learn in book seven that Voldemort was > weakened by Dumbledore's sacrifice. > > This, I think, is the strongest argument for the It-was-all-according- > to-plan theory. > Alla: I could agree IF Dumbledore would have committed suicide or some kind of equivalent of it, but he did not just sacrifice himself, did not he? I said it earlier, but let me say it again, I have a lot of trouble picturing Dumbledore asking SOMEONE ELSE to sacrifice his soul even if for the greater good. Dumbledore went into so much trouble fighting for Snape's soul , no? After all, he was the only one who kept Snape out of Azkaban, he gave the court his word that "Severus Snape is now no more DE than I am". Dumbledore seemed to be the only one who unconditionally trusted Snape. Would he throw all that away, by asking Snape to commit murder? I think not. Especially in light of JKR's interview where she says that Dumbledore's mistakes could be huge, because he is so wise. Dumbledore says as much in HBP himself, no? I also think that as Nora mentioned earlier, JKR gives argument against "conspiracy theory" in the latest interview by saying that Dumbledore had no right hand men, no confidantes. So, in my mind, Severus Snape is not Dumbledore right hand man and had never been Dumbledore's right hand man. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:34:40 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:34:40 -0000 Subject: SOOOOOO many questions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134259 Aggie: > Also, (I KNOW Snape's been done to death but I can't fathom this bit > out AT ALL)WHY oh WHY did Snape attack Flitwick??? I'm of the "Snape's > ultimately on the side of good" camp but this is the one piece of the > jigsaw that just does not fit!! Does this mean that he IS just a bad > guy and that's it or that Flitwick's a bad guy, or Maybe Flitwick knew > of the plan and was going to try and stop Snape. I'm just soooo > confused! > > Casmir- If he was a bad guy (and I am not saying either way yet) why not kill Flitwick? Why just stun him? I like the idea posted by someone earlier that it got Flitwick and Hermione out of the way of the action. I re-read Chapter 2 and believe Snape knew what the plan was. I don't think he was feigning knowledge in order to find out more. I do believe that Snape didn't know what Draco was doing to succeed in his mission, though. I actually am staying away from delving too far into the mysterys, it'll ruin the next book for me if I suspect most of the answers. (It's like when I was little and would secretly open up all my christmas gifts early and then re-wrap them. Those Christmas's were the least thrilling come morning.) ~Casmir From verosomm at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 18:53:31 2005 From: verosomm at yahoo.com (verosomm) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:53:31 -0000 Subject: Hufflepuff Cup location In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134260 Hagrid wrote: > The 50th anniversay of Hepzibah Smith's murder will come up in book > 7 maybe. Having a Hufflepuff connection, she was probably related to > Zacharias. He was a Member of Dumbledore's Army, who plays Chaser on > the Hufflepuff Quidditch team. > > The family was very interested in tracking down that heirloom, so > has heard more rumours of sightings than anyone else. > > If the cup was as visible as the diary (left in Lucius Malfoy's > keeping), then the Smith clan may have some information. > > If it is in a secure location, I suggest another cave like place:- > The Chamber of Secrets. I don't think the tunnels have been > extensively searched. Veronica: I definitely agree; I thought, as soon as I read that Hepzibah was a descendant of Hufflepuff, that Zacharias was related to her as well... he seems to come up in HBP more often than some of the other "minor" characters, and seems to have an ego somehow different than Ernie has (remember how JKR narrates that "despite Ernie's pompousness, Harry liked him a lot," or something to that effect, and that is definitely NOT said of Zacharias). Since "the world is not split into good people and death eaters" I think we will see in Book 7 that Harry will have to get help, not only from his two best friends, but from people he doesn't necessarily get along with wonderfully and who even annoy him, not to mention potentially Draco and Snape (although I don't like either of them, I'm not so sure they're evil). And I really like that assessment of the Chamber of Secrets as being a potential hiding place. Do we ever know in book 2 if it is closed for good? Also, the Room of Requirements, but I'm sure I'm not the first to mention that one! (It's impossible to read all the posts). Veronica From samwisep at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 19:49:51 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:49:51 -0000 Subject: Lupin and werewolf prejudice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134261 Hi Potterphiles! I think there is no way that Lupin could be evil because JKR is not going to validate the unfounded prejudice that people have against werewolves by having Lupin be evil. That would just be too much like saying, "See! He's a werewolf, I knew he would be with LV" because "THEY" (WEREWOLVES)all are evil. Also, off topic, major kudos to the author that wrote that maybe when Harry poured the water over Dumbledore (in the cave)that Dumbledore might have died and came back as an inferni(i dont think I spelled that right) I was blown away when I read that. It was really brilliant thinking on your part!!! Snapo'phile From mercia at ireland.com Fri Jul 22 22:04:49 2005 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:04:49 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes and why Harry can't die - yet! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134262 This is my first post for a very long time and forgive me if this has been discussed. I am some days behind with reading posts and I can't possibly catch up with everything. I found myself yet again reflecting on those wretched ambiguous final words of the prophecy, 'neither can live while the other survives.' Voldemort has created horcruxes to prevent his own death, death being his greatest fear (see Muggletnet/LC interview with JKR). We know that is why he didn't die when the curse intended to kill baby Harry rebounded on him. But were those words of the prophecy the reason why the curse rebounded and was that a further reason also why Harry didn't die, as well as the protection afforded by Lily's sacrifice? After all most mothers would do the same to protect their children and there is no evidence that such sacrifices have prevented other children from dying. Could the interpretation of those last words be something like this. If the one of these two, ie the Dark Lord and the one who will be his equal, succeeds in killing the other, he will in fact be signing his own death sentence, for *neither* can live while the other survives. They have both after all been surviving together through six books and 15 years so far so it can't simply mean that they can't both be alive at the same time. But it might mean while there is a survivor of a final climactic battle. Since Voldemort cannot be killed by Harry while his horcroxes exist, once Harry has found and destroyed however many remain and left Voldemort mortal again, then if he kills him both will in fact die. As Voldemort hasn't heard the final part of the prophecy he doesn't realise that killing Harry will not be possible unless he also is mortal and that it can only be done at the cost of his own life. This is I admit a bit fiendish and convoluted and I am not 100% sure if it logically stands up. That prophecy drives me mad because the meaning seems to twist for me every time I read it. But that explanation mightjust possibly be twisted enough for JKR. It also makes Harry doomed for I am sure that he will succeed in Book 7 in destroying the horcruxes and in destroying Voldemort. But I fear the cost will be his own life too. I also think DD may realise this also but still think the sacrifice, even of Harry worth it since as he told us in the very first book, 'Death is the last great adventure the well ordered mind.' Any comments Meglet From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:03:34 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:03:34 -0000 Subject: Was Draco's task surprising? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134263 Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry? The idea that Voldemort would send a strutting little pissant like Malfoy to assassinate the only man he had ever feared never even occured to me. The reason I bring it up is because I think Dumbledore thought the same thing. The last thing he did before being expelliarmus-ed was to freeze Harry under the invisibility cloak. If he had realized that Draco was after him rather than Harry, he probably would have done something else. Something to defend himself. Also, didn't Harry warn Dumbledore that Malfoy would act the next time Dumbledore left Hogwarts? And the next time he left, he took Harry with him. Maybe to protect him? Maybe that was Dumbledore's big mistake. He did say something in the cave about old age underestimating youth. snipsnapsnurr From dejjfan368 at aol.com Fri Jul 22 22:03:40 2005 From: dejjfan368 at aol.com (ebennet68) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:03:40 -0000 Subject: The Use of the Unforgiveables Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134264 I have been reading the posts of the last week with much interest, especially those dealing with the great Snape debate. Some have argued that Dumbledore would never have wanted Snape to perform the AK on him because it is evil and that it would split his soul. If DD indeed had told him to do this, it wouldn't be the first time that the "good guys" had used one of the unforgiveables. GOF, Chapter 27, p. 527 (US Edition) (Sirius speaking to Harry, Ron and Hermione in the cave about Crouch Sr.) "The Aurors were given new powers--powers to kill rather than capture, for instance... Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects." There were people who agreed with this, though it doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do. DD had also given Imposter Moody permission to demonstrate these curses for the fourth years in their DADA class that year. This might not be that important, but it does open up the possibility that DD was open to the idea of using the curse if it meant saving someone else. Ebennet68 From unix4evr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:10:24 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:10:24 -0000 Subject: Snape really IS evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134265 > 2) Dumbledore would never have planned for Snape to use Avada Kedavra, > or allowed him to do it. It is evil, unforgivable, and splits your > soul (even if you aren't creating a horcrux). > As Ron Weasley might say, "Brilliant!" From doliesl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:10:24 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney and birthdays (mix-ups?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722221024.23869.qmail@web30310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134266 --- Inge wrote: > In one book Trelawney adresses Harry in class and asks if it isn't true > he's born around Christmas (or at least at winter-time - sorry I don't > remember). > Harry laughs - of course he's not born at winter. It is in GOF, p 201 (US version) "Saturn, dear, the planet Saturn!" said Profesor Trelawney,, " I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair...your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life...I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." > In HBP it turns out Tom Riddle is born on New Year .... > Could Trelawney somehow have gotten some sort of her mistaken birthdate > for Harry from Harry himself? Did she look at Harry and sensed the part > (Horcrux) of Tom Riddle inside him and therefore made the birthday- > error? I think this is deliberate, one of many subtle clues JKR filled the book with. This was discussed on the list sometime ago when Snape's birthday was revealed to be January 9th, making him a Capricorn (a Saturn sign), same as Voldemort. Once again, another subtle hint of the similarities/parallization between the three character (not just Harry and Tom Riddle). D. From lmrourke at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:10:30 2005 From: lmrourke at yahoo.com (Lisa Rourke) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:10:30 -0000 Subject: Proof (for me at least) that R.A.B. is Regulas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134267 Like many of you, when I first saw the initials R.A.B. I immediately thought of Regulas. But others have come up with some interesting theories to the contrary. I think I found something that (to me anyway) seems to be proof positive. I remembered in OoP Harry and Sirius cleaning out the stuff in the drawing room. Among the objects that Sirius throws into a sack is ..."a heavy locket that none of them could open.." ( OoP pg. 116 American ed.). It seems to me that this is THE locket. Where it is now remains the question- with Kreacher's belongings at #12 or did Mundungus fence it with the other stolen objects? I also think Regulas had an accomplice since Harry and Dumbledore had to work together in order make it out of the cave. Lisa From mysticowl at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 22:19:49 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:19:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <005101c58eff$2bdebef0$640aa8c0@LHJ> References: <005101c58eff$2bdebef0$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134268 >And also, I do think Tonks is a metamorphmagus capable of more than just > changing her nose and hair. > > Food for thoughts indeed! > > ~Trekkie > Well, we KNOW that Tonks can disguise more than just her nose and hair, she turned into an old woman in book five, remember? I think it was when Harry and co. were off to Hogwarts in September. Alina. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:19:19 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:19:19 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134269 Julie H. / urghiggi wrote: > Similarly, at the tower, in the talk with draco, Dumbledore says he came back to hogwarts > "after a fashion" and that "yes and no," Draco's plan to lure him there worked. I am still > trying to figure out this hedging, since on the face of it, he DID clearly come back and the > plan DID work. So what's with the cryptic language? **Marcela now: Draco believed what Mme.Rosmerta had told him, that DD was seen by himself in Hogsmeade and that he was going to have a drink at the Hog's Head. (Dumbledore had met her, remember? and said that his mood was for less noisy/crowdy atmosphere). So, when Draco asked that to Dumbledore, of course Dumbledore said that he had been gone and for a drink, "after a fashion". The "yes and no" is a mock to Draco's plan, because Draco thought that setting off the Dark Mark would make DD rush back to the castle. His plan worked, but not because Dumbledore saw the Mark and rushed to the castle. DD happened to side-along apparate back to Hogsmeade with Harry at that precise moment. Had the Cave mission taken longer, or Harry not being able to apparate them back, Draco's plan would not have worked. I don't think that there's any cryptic language from Dumbledore in that scene with Draco. Marcela From mysticowl at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 22:23:01 2005 From: mysticowl at gmail.com (Alina) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:23:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134270 > Of course he would know. Dumbledore clearly explained to Harry about > the order of inheritance of house elves. No way would Kreacher have > referred to Sirius as his master if his older brother was still alive > and absolutely no no no way would he have taken an order from Harry. I > really thought that bit was so clear as it was referring to this all > being tied into magic, not just a 'knowledge' of someone being alive or > dead. And we all knwo how greta the magic of house elves is, even > though they are not allowed to use it. > > Wapp13 Regulus was younger than Sirius. From the American edition of OOTP, Chapter Six, page 112: "He was younger than me," said Sirius, "and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded." Alina. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jul 22 22:30:27 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:30:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134271 In a message dated 7/22/2005 6:24:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, mysticowl at gmail.com writes: > >Of course he would know. Dumbledore clearly explained to Harry about > >the order of inheritance of house elves. No way would Kreacher have > >referred to Sirius as his master if his older brother was still alive > >and absolutely no no no way would he have taken an order from Harry. > > > >Wapp13 > > Regulus was younger than Sirius. From the American edition of OOTP, > Chapter Six, page 112: > > "He was younger than me," said Sirius, "and a much better son, as I > was constantly reminded." > > Alina. > In fact, Dumbledore states that "Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black'." Chap. 3, pg 50, Scholastic American Version. So, if Regulus WAS still alive, Kreacher and the house could never have passed to Harry, despite Sirius' will. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:31:30 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:31:30 -0000 Subject: The Cave, the Bible, the Passing of the Baton... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134272 Cathy Drolet wrote: I may have missed this while I was off-list avoiding spoilers. If it has already been discussed then forgive me, list-elves! These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he was being force-fed potion by HP. "I don't want...don't make me Don't like ... want to stop No. I don't want to ... I don't want to ... let me go Make it stop, make it stop No, no, no ... no ... I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to It's all my fault, all my fault, please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again. Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything No more, please, no more I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die! Kill me!" vmonte responds: This entire scene is so upsetting. It sounds like a memory of some kind but I'm not sure if it belongs to Dumbledore or if the memory was somehow recorded in the liquid Dumbledore drank. It's strange. The "I know I did wrong" and "It's all my fault" does remind me of what Dumbledore said to Harry regarding how sorry Snape was when he found out that the Potter family was targeted by Voldemort. (Did Dumbledore penetrate Snape's mind in the same way that he got information out of Kreacher during OOTP? Or was Snape given some kind of truth serum?) I also wonder if Dumbledore had just reviewed this memory in his penseive before he left with Harry to the cave. Was Dumbledore trying to see if there was anything in Harry's comments about Snape that was true? If so, I predict that this memory is still floating in the penseive and that Harry will receive the penseive in Dumbledore's will. By the way, there are some other curious things that come to mind. Was Dumbledore the "Harry Potter" of his generation? Does the cave represent the passing of the baton? I like the way that Dumbledore uses his blood to get into the cave and how Harry later uses his own blood to get out. Is there a correlation between Dumbledore vs Grindelwald and Harry vs Voldemort? What is happening in the cave also symbolically reminds me of the Bible. There is another site that has compared Dumbledore's time in the cave with Jesus's last night in the Garden (dcv & whizbang theory). I'm unable to get to this post at the moment but will post it later. The jist of their theory is that some of the comments Dumbledore makes in the cave are similar to what Jesus says the night before his crucifixion. I also wonder though if DD was reliving the moment that Snape confessed about the plot against the Potters. I wonder if it was during this "reflash" that Dumbledore was finally able to see that past moment in history in a clear way. I wonder if it was at this moment that Dumbledore realized that Snape had betrayed him. Maybe this is the real reason why Dumbledore wants to see Snape right after- -to confront him. When Dumbledore does see Snape his comments to Snape may very be echoing the Bible's: "Why have you forsaken me" Snape? (JMO) Did Dumbledore die for Snape's sins? If so, Snape has made a crucial error in killing Dumbledore. Martyred people often become stronger when they die. And their followers often become braver, and more focused. (Didn't Judas allegedly hang himself over the guilt?) So, will Dumbledore rise from the dead before passing through the veil? Vivian From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jul 22 22:43:36 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:43:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's Tarot Tarot Reading Message-ID: <9d.6431b138.3012d098@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134273 In a message dated 7/22/2005 6:29:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anthyroserain at yahoo.com writes: leslie41 wrote: > When Harry is hiding from Trelawney in book 10, just after he's > discovered the HPB's potions book, she walks past him, muttering to > herself. > > But it's not just muttering. She's doing a reading. She pulls out > the two of spades (conflict), seven of spades (ill omen), ten of > spades (violence), and knave of spades?"A dark young man, possibly > troubled, who dislikes the questioner." > > Trelawney is doing, in fact, a tarot card reading. Spades are the > lesser arcana's version of swords, and the brief interpretations > that Trelawney gives as she walks support this. anthyroserain: Thanks for your brilliant analysis of the cards! I decided to snip all of your comments from this post, because they were so detailed and excellent that I didn't know what to take out. Everybody, read the original post! I have a few comments, just to add some additional speculation to everything you've already said. Two of Swords: If you accept ESE! Snape, this could be Dumbledore's blindness about Snape. He's too intelligent and trusting to make the right decision. But then again, it's Harry's reading, so it may be, as you say, Harry's need to "look at both sides." It might be he who is blind to the situation. I'd also add that this card seems to suggest occlumency. The description on the site you linked to says "A balance between equally matched opponents. A duel. Blocked emotions. Tension. Holding in emotions. Defensiveness." Sounds like Snape and Harry's final duel, and Snape's advice. Seven of swords: It's The Flight of the Prince. This card, more than the others, might seem to point to ESE!Snape. But it also could signify intrigue and acting as a spy. It's Snape on the card, but whose side is he betraying? Of course, as in the book, it's ambiguous. And again, it's Harry's reading, so this suggests that perhaps he doesn't know the entirety of Snape's motives. Another website (http://www.paranormality.com/tarot_seven_of_swords.shtml) has the description "Reluctance to carry through daring actions when necessary, failure of nerve and indecision. Inability and reluctance to complete what has been started." This definitely sounds like Snape's reluctance to kill Dumbledore! But whether that is reluctance due to the UV (ESE!Snape) or the promise Dumbledore may have urged him to make earlier (good!Snape) is left open. Ten of Swords: The clearest. Nothing I have to add here. Page of Swords: This is a bit of what http://www.paranormality.com/tarot_page_of_swords.shtml says: "Upright - A good personal emissary, although sometimes a card associated with spying or surveying others from a detached viewpoint. Ill Dignified or Reversed - A two faced, cunning and possibly vindictive person... A seeker of hidden weaknesses in enemies, devious and given to snooping in other people's affairs." --------------------------------- Sherrie here: As a Tarot reader for more years than I care to count :-D this bit rather intrigued me. Just a couple of comments (you'll have to excuse me - I'm posting from my parents' so I don't have my Tarot books here): A) IS it really Harry's reading? I honestly didn't get that. In fact, since the Page of Swords usually refers to a younger person/child, I took that card to be Harry's. (I love the "snooping into other people's affairs" bit there...) B) Swords are not necessarily "negative" in a reading. As the suit connected with the element of Air, they also refer to the world of imagination, the mind, the intellect - and that of business. Most any card in the deck (with the possible exception of the 4 of Rods or the 10 of Cups) has some sort of "negative" connotation (take a look at the 5 of Cups, the 5 of Pentacles, the 4 of Cups, the 8 of Cups...) C) The 2 of Swords doesn't necessarily reflect blindness to a situation - indecision, perhaps, which sometimes comes of knowing too MUCH about both choices. It is also sometimes a warning against movement at that particular cusp. D) The 7 of Swords - definitely spying/snooping - theft, perhaps; but not necessarily of material objects or money. "Theft" of choice, of self-esteem, of independence, perhaps? E) The 10 of Swords - HORRIBLE sorrow, without doubt THE saddest card in the deck. F) As I noted above, the Page of Swords is usually a very young person - one who is connected with the mind, with messages (pages carried messages, among their other duties). IMHO, if this card represented Snape, it should've been the Knight, not the Knave. G) The Lightning-Struck Tower - the Tower represents the sudden passing away of the old, to clear the way for the new. It's not only sudden, but often catastrophic as well - but it doesn't signify the utter end. H) i don't know what spread Trelawney was using - it's never described, really - so I can't tell what positions these cards were in in relation to the others. Which spread (there are hundreds of different ones) and where each card falls makes a difference in the interpretation. However, the Page coming before the Tower would almost imply that it is the Page who precipitates the downfall of the Tower. All in all, I took this to be a reading relating not to Harry, but to Dumbledore - or possibly even to Snape. Sherrie "Some kid a hundred years from now is going to get interested in the Civil War and want to see these places. He's going to go down there and be standing in a parking lot. I'm fighting for that kid." - Brian Pohanka, 1990 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ctcasares at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:44:42 2005 From: ctcasares at yahoo.com (tylerswaxlion) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:44:42 -0000 Subject: Questions--RE: Possibility of Ginny as Horcrux In-Reply-To: <20050722210715.15946.qmail@web50912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134274 Neisha Saxena wrote: Also, what about Riddle's "pouring a little of [his]soul back into [Ginny]" in COS. Ginny can't be a Horcrux, can she? Although, he would have had to kill someone to make her a Horcrux. Thoughts on this? Tyler: I think you've nailed it there. Had Diary!Horcrux!Tom Riddle managed to kill Ginny, I think this piece of his soul would have taken over her body--Now whether she would have been just a Horcrux, or a lesser clone of Lord Voldemort is something to ponder. Harry stopped Diary!Horcrux!Tom before he could kill her though. No death, no new Horcrux. Now, if the piece of Voldemort's soul in the diary/horcrux killed someone, would that piece also be damaged and fractured? Would the Diary!SoulPiece have poured all of itself into Ginny, or reserved part of itself to reside in the diary? 16 y/o Tom Riddle was into creating multiple horcruxes, so would the embodiment of his 16 y/o soul still be trying to create them? Ah...but now I'm way out of cannon and firmly into complete and total speculation... Tyler's Lion From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 23:32:09 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722233209.76385.qmail@web54701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134275 If Regulus was still alive, I feel sure that Kreacher would know, and consider him (Regulus) to be his true master. It is an interesting idea though - to think that a character we already know (potentially) would emerge as Regulus. Carodave More importantly than that I am sure the magic works so that if any son is alive they get the house first. I can't imagine this being something that can just be willed away by Sirius. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 22 23:45:19 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:45:19 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: <42DFBD5D.7030906@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134276 > delwynmarch wrote: > > > > And finally my biggest concern: we did NOT NEED to learn what was > > in that chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY of the things we > > learn in that chapter? Valky: Hate to be so short Del, but there really is only one simple answer IMHO. We did need to learn something that was in Chapter 2, about Snape and Dumbledore.. neither could live while the other survived.. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 23:54:46 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:54:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus (was: Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: I don't think Snape would have showed up in the > Foe Glass in GoF had he not really been a foe of Fake!Moody, whom he > knew by that time to be a Death Eater and not the auror Alastor Moody. > > Carol, who has used her last post for the day and is now reduced to > lurking again Lorel responds: That may be an excellent point. It depends, though, on how the foe- glass identifies enemies. At the time that Harry saw the foe-glass, LV (and therefore Barty Crouch) still considered Snape a deserter from the DE fold; it was not until afterward that Snape approached LV (per Snape's explanation in Spinner's End). If the foe-glass shows absolute truth, then you're onto something; if it shows those whom its owner considers enemies, then we're back to square one. From macfotuk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 00:00:26 2005 From: macfotuk at yahoo.com (macfotuk) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:00:26 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes and why Harry can't die - yet! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134278 For Meglet's message see below, but basically ... When I, myself, first read about horcruxes, something I've puzzled over for a while seemed to perhaps make sense (why Harry has so much of LV's abilities, e.g parseltongue, in him), especially when a living being (Nagini) can be a receptacle (if with worrying consequences): Harry himself is, perhaps, Voldemort's ultimate horcrux, the first ever (?) human/wizard horcrux - a final triumph for LV in proving how powerful he is, but which backfired on him BIGTIME. The future battle might therefore be whether Harry can rid himself of his Voldemort part (and perhaps his scar) by killing 'mortal' LV/TMR? without, himself, dying in the process. Tell me I'm talking trash. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meglet2" wrote: > This is my first post for a very long time and forgive me if this > has been discussed. I am some days behind with reading posts and I > can't possibly catch up with everything. > > I found myself yet again reflecting on those wretched ambiguous > final words of the prophecy, 'neither can live while the other > survives.' Voldemort has created horcruxes to prevent his own death, > death being his greatest fear (see Muggletnet/LC interview with > JKR). We know that is why he didn't die when the curse intended to > kill baby Harry rebounded on him. But were those words of the > prophecy the reason why the curse rebounded and was that a further > reason also why Harry didn't die, as well as the protection afforded > by Lily's sacrifice? After all most mothers would do the same to > protect their children and there is no evidence that such sacrifices > have prevented other children from dying. Could the interpretation > of those last words be something like this. > > If the one of these two, ie the Dark Lord and the one who will be > his equal, succeeds in killing the other, he will in fact be signing > his own death sentence, for *neither* can live while the other > survives. They have both after all been surviving together through > six books and 15 years so far so it can't simply mean that they > can't both be alive at the same time. But it might mean while there > is a survivor of a final climactic battle. Since Voldemort cannot be > killed by Harry while his horcroxes exist, once Harry has found and > destroyed however many remain and left Voldemort mortal again, then > if he kills him both will in fact die. As Voldemort hasn't heard the > final part of the prophecy he doesn't realise that killing Harry > will not be possible unless he also is mortal and that it can only > be done at the cost of his own life. > > This is I admit a bit fiendish and convoluted and I am not 100% sure > if it logically stands up. That prophecy drives me mad because the > meaning seems to twist for me every time I read it. But that > explanation mightjust possibly be twisted enough for JKR. It also > makes Harry doomed for I am sure that he will succeed in Book 7 in > destroying the horcruxes and in destroying Voldemort. But I fear the > cost will be his own life too. I also think DD may realise this also > but still think the sacrifice, even of Harry worth it since as he > told us in the very first book, 'Death is the last great adventure > the well ordered mind.' > > Any comments > > Meglet From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 00:10:16 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:10:16 -0000 Subject: SOOOOOO many questions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jo R" wrote: > When DD and H relived the memory of LV wanting the job of DADA teacher, > (or just checking out the Founder's goodies in DD's office) was that > the year before Harry started at Hogwarts? I'm SURE that the twins had > said that no-one had kept the DADA job for more than a year since they > had been at school yet this was after LV had been defeated at Godric's > Hollow! I cannot even remember which book it is in let alone remember > the quote - any help? I'm thinking I'm going mad here!!! > Hi, I'm thinking LV came to Hogwarts for a job about 20 or 25 years ago. It was shrotly after leaving Hogwarts and traveling the world. Dumbledore was a bit younger, LV didn't have snake eyes or anything, he was still human. The twins are only 2 years older than Harry, so they started Hogwarts when Harry was 9!, LV had already been part vanquished 8 years ago. The curse on the DADA job was long before their time, even before the Marauders, me thinks. Juli - hope this helps From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Jul 23 00:12:00 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:12:00 +0100 Subject: JKR - brilliant but scary Message-ID: <42E18B50.7050504@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134280 Have you noticed how most of the questions we've been asking ourselves after book 5 were not answered in one way or another by book 6, but just rendered irrelevant? Where do I start with examples: did Snape drop Harry's potion sample on purpose, or just enjoyed the view of its fall? Did he throw the jar at Harry, or was it a spontaneous combustion? Will Harry be able to learn from him if he teaches DADA? Will Harry fare better by just keeping his mouth shut during the lessons and doing his homework, or should he seek an open confrontation? Who cares, it doesn't seem so important now, she has raised the stakes in the game. So now we'll spend 2 more years discussing other, equally burning questions. What scares me is the possibility that book 7 can leave the question of Snape's motives open. Let's assume that Harry is successful in his quest, all horcruxes are destroyed and he faces a mortal Voldemort. Who is still a more powerful wizard, unless Harry really surprises me in book 7. Let's make another popular assumption - Snape is a time-bomb, he takes Voldie's AK, giving Harry the chance to kill Voldemort. What if she does not give any explanation? Those who want to believe it was the plan all along, can go on believing that, and those who think it was the last moment change of heart by the villain (think Anakin in SW VI) can fit it into the described events perfectly as well. And we'll be stuck forever, discussing "Snape is evil/Snape is deep undercover agent". What a frightening thought. Irene From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 00:15:09 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:15:09 -0000 Subject: The most powerful magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134281 > houyhnhnm102 wrote: > > > By sacrificing himself to save three people-Draco and Narcissa > > Malfoy and Severus Snape (if that's what happened), Dumbledore > > has struck the most powerful blow against Voldemort that he could > > possibly make. Valky: Hi Alla. You said.. > Alla: > I have a lot of trouble picturing Dumbledore asking SOMEONE ELSE to > sacrifice his soul even if for the greater good. But what if it was the only way? What if it was an interpretation of the prophecy? One thing we know in HBP is that Dumbledore had located and destroyed a Horcrux. But the Prophecy doesn't say.. we must locate and destroy special objects with his soul in them.. it says either must die by the hand of the other.. We have spent two years looking for the either's and now we find out there are seven Voldemorts, couldn't these be the eithers? Voldemorts eithers.. Valky From trog at wincom.net Sat Jul 23 00:26:00 2005 From: trog at wincom.net (Dennis Grant) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:26:00 -0000 Subject: Snape can't be Evil In-Reply-To: <00ab01c58e49$bcd57630$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: >> He didn't HAVE to do that. He could have simply pretended >> that he didn't understand Harry, and allowed the Death >> Eaters to get the prophecy without interference. > That one's easy for me anyway. If he hadn't done what he did, then > if Harry survived the events at the ministry, Snape's cover would > have been blown I think the answer is even easier. At the time, Snape was working for the Good side, and so did the Good thing. I don't see Snape as an archtypical character - indeed, there are very few archtypes in all of HP. Snape is human. he grows and changes as he reacts to events around him, and his behaviour on the top of the tower is the final sum of all the directions in which he has been pushed and pulled throughout the story. I see Snape as caught in the middle of forces trying to push and pull him onto one side or the other, and his own resolve changes in response. He is profoundly conflicted... and seems resistant to really committing himself. A foot in both worlds gives him more options. But on the top of the tower, Snape finally chooses, and I think in book 7, he's going to reap the whirlwind for his choice. DG From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 00:33:15 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:33:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DD/Hagrid trusts Snape? Message-ID: <194.435298d6.3012ea4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134283 RhianynTheCat at aol.com writes: >Hmmm, Hagrid I wonder? He's always seemed more trusting of Snape than even >the others. I mean, the others at least admit that Snape is an unlikable git >even if they do trust him. Hagrid will hardly hear a bad word against him. Except that Hagrid is still not officially allowed to do magic, and still has his broken wand hidden in the umbrella* Can you imagine Dumbledore and Snape entering a solemn oath while Hagrid holds that ridiculous flowered umbrella over their hands? * Yes, it's still there. What were the two things Hagrid saved from his burning hut? Fang and his umbrella. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 00:36:33 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:36:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: Evil or just doing his job? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134284 Adam writes: >I think there is no doubt it is Dumbledore who has been killed, as his >portrait now hangs in the headmaster's study. Ah but there is doubt. What did Dumbledore teach before he became Headmaster? Transformations. Perhaps he transformed himself into a portrait of himself - sleeping. And am I the only who, in Harry's place, would have run up to the portrait and yelled, "Wake up, dammit!" -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trog at wincom.net Sat Jul 23 00:39:23 2005 From: trog at wincom.net (Dennis Grant) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:39:23 -0000 Subject: JKR Interview on Mugglenet; Snape = Evil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oaksong" wrote: > Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to > protect Harry? I doubt it - because an Unbreakable Vow *kills*, and that strikes me as being a bit of Dark magic. The UV is something you do to someone you don't trust. DG From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Sat Jul 23 00:43:09 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:43:09 EDT Subject: HBP thoughts by danielle Message-ID: <1c5.2c7d1c56.3012ec9d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134286 First lets get to snape, it is possible for snape to be a good guy and still an evil git. I hate snape, but I think he felt he had no choice but to kill DD and DD knew that. I think as DD was 150 yrs, destroying the one horcrux and drinking the water/potion was slowly killing him and he welcomed death, feeling that he had helped harry as much as possible. On to women in the book, I am of the feminist theory that women can do whatever they want to do in life. But remember women are really tied into our emotions. Are some women more emotional than others yes. And yes I think emotions play a big part of how much magic they have. And yes it affects men, look Neville always afraid of his own shadow, didn't do magic very well. He has gotten better in life, and is doing better in magic. I think that they have done nicely bringing up how Harry feels for Ginny, someone mentioned the part of oopt's easter scene in the library. There is also the scene on the train where they separate and Ginny goes to find Dean and Harry feels off because she's gone. And he hadn't seen Ginny with her boyfriends in teh position he found her with dean and he really tried to pretend he was upset because he felt brotherly, I personally loved that part. Then there was a hopeful note in his voice when he found out they had argued and hoped ginny and dean had broken up. As for Hermione and Ron, Ron is waiting for Hermione to make the move because he's not sure of her feelings for him. As for Hermione she's book smart not socially skilled smart, of course she acted like a brat. That and she hated that she got an e and not an o in DADA. She also hated that Harry was better at potions than she was and was getting more academic glory. I do think RAB is regalus. Not sure if he is dead or not. But I do loive the theory that is was amelia bones. I think the hints in the potions book came from eileen prince, but the curses were snapes. And yes DD is really dead. It's time for Harry to learn on his own. The trio won't be back at Hogwarts, whether it is open or not. I think Ginny will give Harry until the wedding, and then him a piece of her mind. Harry I'm comming with you whether you like it or not. Or she will wait for the trio at Godric's Hollow. She won't be 17 yet, but since there is assisted apparation, that's how they will get around that. I think Ginny will convince Molly that she has to go even if the school is open. That's all for now, comming out of lurkerdom Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macfotuk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 00:44:25 2005 From: macfotuk at yahoo.com (macfotuk) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:44:25 -0000 Subject: Was Draco's task surprising? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning > struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry? Didn't really know WHAT he was up to, but was fairly sure it WASN'T to try to kill Harry (except that I agree with the idea posted long ago, e.g. by kneasy) that perhaps LV has finally concluded that altough there is nothing special about Harry in terms of *a*n*other* wizard might stand a chance of killing him even wgere some special charm prevents LV doing so and has several times to date. Even so, I always felt that LV was 'saving' Harry for himself (and JKR too, for the final book - Harry Potter and the Final Showdown). Like you I'm surprised it was DD that was the target, but I guess the thinking was to hit DD from a direction he might least expect, one of his own Hogwart's students. The idea that > Voldemort would send a strutting little pissant like Malfoy to > assassinate the only man he had ever feared never even occured to me. > The reason I bring it up is because I think Dumbledore thought the same > thing. The last thing he did before being expelliarmus-ed was to freeze > Harry under the invisibility cloak. If he had realized that Draco was > after him rather than Harry, he probably would have done something > else. Nope!!!! I disagree. DD cottoned on EXACTLY to what was going on and knew that sooner or later an attack/his death was bound to happen, especially when his withered hand was a clear sign he was close to the end of his powers. He also knew (or at least hoped) it would be Snape (our half blood prince - now wasn't THAT a surprise? well it was to me at least), because they (DD/SS) agreed it in advance. That's why he pleads/begs (DD NEVER begs) - he's saying to Snape 'you MUST do this' (just as he told Harry you must do ALL that I say before they went on the cave trip), not only because it'll keep you in LV's good books where the good guys need you to be, but also because you'll then be able to protect Harry as your bond to James OBLIGES you to do, and because you won't then die from not honouring your *unbreakable* bond to Malfoy's mother AND because you at least will do it quickly and cleanly unlike many other DE's or LV. DD knows he's 'had his day' and that it's time to both make way for the 'chosen one' AND to let him get on with it alone, in his own unforseeable way. As such, you can see I am not yet persuaded that double, triple, and redoubled secret agent Snape may yet turn out to be acting nobly - a master stroke I think on JKR's part to leave him still so ambiguous (I loved his weasling with Bellatrix in the Spinner's End chapter btw - even convinced ME that he might be easily seen as evil and OK by even LV himself when I was thinking LV would have to be totally stupid to be taken in. Clearly, Snape is a TREMENDOUSLY skilled wizard, as his repeated parrying of Harry's attacks - like batting away the attempts of a child - showed near the end). Wish I knew whose side he was on really. Certainly, Snape is too smart a wizard not to have spotted Harry's (second) broomstick on the tower rooftop where later someone else (can't remember who) did so and concluded HP must have witnessed DD's demise. So, Snape arrives on the roof, takes in the situation as only he can, realises it's all up for either Malfoy or for DD, i.e. the latter and so puts into execution (reluctantly or otherwise) the pre-agreed plan. >Something to defend himself. There is NO doubt in MY mind that the DD at the end of OotP could have wiped the floor with everyone on that rooftop in HBP, even the alarmingly good Snape, but was either too weakened by the cave or else by events and aging during and since OotP, or else reluctant for his own good reasons to try. >Also, didn't Harry warn Dumbledore > that Malfoy would act the next time Dumbledore left Hogwarts? And the > next time he left, he took Harry with him. Maybe to protect him? > > Maybe that was Dumbledore's big mistake. He did say something in the > cave about old age underestimating youth. Call me delusional (har har JKR interview with Melissa and Emerson btw - see her website), but I believe that DD has made few mistakes EVER, even those he rates himself as having been mistakes (he was ever his own harshest critic). > snipsnapsnurr From yellows at aol.com Sat Jul 23 00:48:41 2005 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:48:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable Vow was: JKR Interview on Mugglenet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134288 In a message dated 7/22/2005 8:39:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, trog at wincom.net writes: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oaksong" wrote: > Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to > protect Harry? I doubt it - because an Unbreakable Vow *kills*, and that strikes me as being a bit of Dark magic. The UV is something you do to someone you don't trust. DG Brief Chronicles now: That's a good point. Is an Unbreakable Vow only Dark Magic? That would count out the possibility that Snape has made such a vow with Dumbledore. Still, in Chapter 2, Snape did show an understanding of the vow that seemed above Bellatrix's understanding (instructing her on how close she needed to be, etc.). That looked to me like a hint. Could he have made one in the past with Lord Thingy that caused him great pain and regret? Brief Chronicles, who will not believe that Snape is bad ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 01:03:10 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:03:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Draco's task surprising? Message-ID: <1b9.180191b2.3012f14e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134289 In a message dated 7/22/2005 7:44:35 PM Central Standard Time, macfotuk at yahoo.com writes: Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning > struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry? No I actually thought from the first that Dumbledore was his target. I don't think that Narcissia would have been nearly as upset if Draco was supposed to go after Harry. But pitting Draco against the only wizard who that Voldemort ever feared was something else altogether. And I think that LV fully expected for Draco to fail. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 01:16:09 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:16:09 -0000 Subject: DD's mercy /The most powerful magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" wrote: > By sacrificing himself to save three people-Draco and Narcissa Malfoy and Severus Snape (if that's what happened), Dumbledore has struck the most powerful blow against Voldemort that he could possibly make. (snip)> This, I think, is the strongest argument for the It-was-all-according- to-plan theory. Tonks: It is impossible to keep up with all of the post, I hope this doesn't repeat too much. DD says to Draco when they are along on the Tower: "No Draco, it is my mercy that matters now." I posed a question about that earlier today. I thought about this all day, in-between (sob) tears over DD. I know now what he was saying and why. Here is my theory: Snape is still on DD's side as I and others have said. DD knew about the Vow. If he wanted to he could have defended himself even in his weakened state and without a wand. DD made a sacrifice of himself to save 3 people. Draco, Snape and ultimately Harry. (you can add Narcissus here too if you want.) He saved Draco because Draco did not have to become a killer, and since Draco has not killed his soul is still free. Snape did not want to kill DD, Snape would have died for both Draco and DD. But DD did not want Snape to die due to the default clause of the vow because Snape is the most valuable person to spy on the DE and LV. Snape will be very important in bringing down LV. Now you ask "but why did DD call for Snape before they found out about the dark mark?" My answer is because Snape is a better potions Master that Poppy. He would have been able to come up with an antidote to whatever it was that DD drank. That is why DD asked for Snape. When DD says "Severus, please". He is asking Snape to make the sacrifice that Snape will have to make by killing DD. DD is asking Snape to be a murderer, with whatever consequences that carries with it. And I am sure they are many. And DD is asking it because they must keep Harry alive, the world depends on it. The stakes are bigger that just DD and Snape. This is a war and great and noble sacrifices must be made, and they are made by both DD and Snape. Others have said that DD would not ask Snape to murder, but is it really murder? I guess it could be seen as a suicide, but either way it was not an easy thing for Snape to do. Now here is a little twist. If LV were as smart and shred as some of our politicians he would have known his enemy well enough to know that if Snape were on DD's side, DD's death would be proof of it. LV would have known that Snape told DD of the vow and that DD would give his own live before he allowed Draco and Snape to die. But FOOL that LV is, I guess he will not figured that out. As DD says, LV underestimates the power of Love, and that is LV greatest weakness. But if LV were smart he would have set things up so that Snape would make the vow, knowing that in this way and only in this way could anyone succeed in killing DD. In other words, LV would know that Snape is a spy and count on Snape to tell DD of the vow. LV would know that DD would allow himself to die to save Snape and Draco. But I don't think that LV is that smart. Maybe, but he hasn't been yet!! I suspect that the politicians at the MOM know more about bringing an enemy down than LV seems to know. Tonks_op DD's most faithful and loyal servant. (Sob I just can't stop crying. Don't say "I am not afraid Harry, I am with you".. I burst into tears everytime....) From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Fri Jul 22 20:19:25 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (Cheryl) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:19:25 -0700 Subject: Why Snape Can't Be Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c58efa$a7b06290$020aa8c0@MOMANDDADS> No: HPFGUIDX 134291 Janeway: So Harry has "pretty much given up on doing or attempting" Occlumency for some pretty integral psychological reasons. Sounds like once again Snape just doesn't "get" Harry. To me his insistence that Harry play by LV's rules (mouth shut, mind closed) doesn't sound like valuable advice from a caring mentor. It does appear as though Harry has given up on Occlumency, but I think he might find that he, like Voldemort, has a gift for legilimency. After all, in OotP, he gets a flood of Snape's memories when he is simply trying to protect himself from Snape's legilimency by using the protego spell.and Snape is supposed to be a gifted Occlumens. If so, I wonder how Harry will use this talent. Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From isis227 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 20:27:13 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:27:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887587d405072213273ada68a5@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134292 auruor wrote: > I have a theory, sorry if others have already said this, > Dumbledore isn't dead it was Slughorn in the lightning tower. Not > just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used > several times by Slughorn. Secondly JK doesn't explain what > Slughorn is with reference to him being a chair/sofa at Spinners > end. As I said my first time! Oh-- that's interesting-- I assumed "oho" was a British saying or something that I wasn't familiar with being an American (and thought it was something they had left in the American books)-- but I notice you are from the UK, so I assume you have the British versions of the books. I had not seen that expression prior to this book, and, now that you mention it, not used by anyone but Slughorn... You know, I had not bought the DD isn't dead thing at all for the whole past week, but there are some things that are coming through that makes me think it may be a possibility... Then, of course there is the Katie Couric interview (which I kind of dismissed because I think Katie Couric is a ditz and doesn't know how to interview :-)), but JKR does say in that interview "I never SAID I killed a major character in this book"-- I totally took it as sarcastic, but I guess you never know with her! Isis From macfotuk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 01:31:11 2005 From: macfotuk at yahoo.com (macfotuk) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:31:11 -0000 Subject: The Horcrux At Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134293 Great theory Laurie! All I'd add is that no the horcrux isn't sitting there - it's walking around trying to kill LV (namely is Harry Potter!). --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laurie" wrote: > Hi, > Long time reader, first time poster.... > > I've been frantically trying to keep up with the postings on this > list......an impossible task, I fear. > > I have been paying particular attention to the ones about the > Horcruxes, as I find those the most intruiging. I have made some > assumptions (yes, I remember the consequences of making > ASSupmtions :D ), and a possible theory that I have yet to see > mentioned. > > My Assumptions: > From what I remember from HBP, the creating of a Horcrux is an > intentional act. In other words, you can do something really foul > that will split your soul, but you won't create a Horcrux unless you > intend to create one. To my mind, that means you have a specific > spell/ritual that must be performed. It makes sense to me that this > spell/ritual would need to be completed BEFORE you commit your evil > act. In essence, it is the evil act that seals/completes the horcrux > spell. > > My theory: > According to DD, it is possible that LV went to Godric's Hollow > intending to create a Horcrux, using the murder(s) there to seal it. > He's found his magical object (IMO, he has that picked out well in > advance), he's completed the whatever ritual is necessary to make the > object ready to receive a piece of his soul; He then journey's to > Godric's Hollow to commit murder. IMO, it was James' murder that > created the Horcrux. Then, when LV tried to kill Harry, the spell > rebounded because of Lily's sacrifice, and LV's body was blasted, > leaving his soul as an incorporeal being. The horcrux was dropped on > the floor of the Potter's house, and there it sits among the > wreckage, waiting for Harry to find it....... > > Laurie (yes, another one.....we're everywhere.....) From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 00:42:58 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:42:58 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134294 I'm trying to figure out what Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore arguing about. What did Snape want to stop doing? I can only think of a few things that he is doing and none of them really fit. 1. He is spying for the Order. If he wanted to stop doing that, why would he discuss it with Dumbledore? Wouldn't he just stop? 2. He is teaching DADA. Why would he want to stop doing that? That has been his ambition throughout the whole series. 3. He is investigating the Slytherins to see if any of them were involved with the cursed necklace. Again, if he wanted to stop doing that, wouldn't he just stop? If Dumbledore asked him how the investigation was going, he would just say he hadn't come up with anything. 4. He is trying to help Draco accomplish his task. But Draco won't let him. So he can't do that anyway. So maybe he is involved in some other project and we haven't been told about it. Maybe something along the lines of. . . I don't know. . . hunting for Voldemort's horcruxes and destroying them. snipsnapsnurr From dobbyisdumbledore at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:49:32 2005 From: dobbyisdumbledore at yahoo.com (dobbyisdumbledore) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:49:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134295 lillys_lianas_mom wrote: > page 591-592 > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the > right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can > possibly imagine." > Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we > think to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps > Regulas??? Or better yet, maybe Dumbledore was eluding to his own future. He cannot kill you if you are already dead... right before he dies. The man that needs no wand, needs speak no words defenseless? I think not. The silver light that transfigures (Dumbledore's specialty) his body into a white tomb? Where have we seen that silver streak before? How about what if Dumbledore himself was unwittingly a horcrux? dobbyisdumbledore From thlavinka at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 01:04:15 2005 From: thlavinka at yahoo.com (Tara DellaVecchia) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <005101c58eff$2bdebef0$640aa8c0@LHJ> Message-ID: <20050723010415.45675.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134296 > From: "auruor" > > I have a theory, sorry if others have already said > this, Dumbledore > > isn't dead it was Slughorn in the lightning tower. > Not just a wild > > idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > saying "oho" in the cave > > was unusual. It is an expression used several > times by Slughorn. Hi, This is also my first time replying, so I hope it comes through! Despite how sad I am at Dumbledore's death, the bottom line is that Harry could not defeat Voldemort if Dumbledore was still alive. He would continue to turn to Dumbledore for assistance. Harry must do this on his own. "Tara" From baphythegoat at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 22:10:56 2005 From: baphythegoat at yahoo.com (baphythegoat) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:10:56 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's Tarot Tarot Reading: Card Readings, not Tarot. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134297 Hey All: I thought the commentary on Trelawney's card pulls in book six have been quite fun. However, I've been reading tarot in "real life" for over 15 years, and been the owner of an occult shop for almost a decade. The type of cards Trelawney was reading were playing cards. This practice is a form of what is called "cartomancy", or simply, card reading. there are many variants of reading playing cards. "French playing card reading" or "Spanish" are among the most popular. In sme places he traditional tarot interpretations and trad. playing card meanings do overlap somewhat. However, it should be kept in mind that tarot decks have more cards (about 78 vs. 52), and the meanings of the individual cards in tarot have far more flexibility than those of the playing cards. Playing card interpretations are relatively static, therefore the readings with them tend to be concise and blunt. If anyone would like a simple , fun (but rather accurate) book on popular "fortune telling" methods that includes both the tarot, playing card decks, and even crystal ball gazing, look for a copy of "Fortune Telling" by Rachel Pollack. baphythegoat From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 23 01:44:18 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:44:18 -0000 Subject: Another Horcrux theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134298 A friend suggested to me that Dumbledore was a Horcrux, but she thought that he realized it himself before the school year started. I have a slightly different idea - what if Dumbledore became a Horcrux in the course of Book 6? Where and when? In the cave, with Harry. What if the Horcrux wasn't the locket at the bottom of the chalice, but the potion itself? If the only way of removing the potion to reach the locket was to drink it, then the drinker would end up taking into himself Voldemort's soul-fragment. He'd become the Horcrux. And Voldemort would think this is a foolproof plan - the only way of destroying the soul-fragment would be for the carrier to die, and who would agree to his own death? Voldemort can't imagine it, so he'd think his soul would be safe. This explains 2 more things: the anguished memory that Dumbledore "channels" while drinking the potion - that's Voldemort's (or Riddle's) memory. Maybe his soul can still experience the atrocity committed on it when Riddle gave himself up to evil. Perhaps this was his first 'dark magic' experience in the cave - whatever he did to the two children there. And Snape's reaction when he AK'd Dumbledore on top of the tower. His hatred and loathing - it wasn't for Dumbledore, it was for Voldemort, whom he was also killing at that moment. This leaves me with the puzzle of the locket. I think it was fake all the time. Voldemort was a collector of trophies. If the locket didn't contain his soul, he wouldn't waste it as mere bait. He put the false locket in the chalice, and the real one is somewhere else - probably not a Horcrux at all. And the note? Perhaps Dumbledore put that message to Voldemort in there himself - a warning that he'd figured out his plan and destroyed it. I don't know what R.A.B. stands for, though - maybe Godric Gryffindor had a motto that would fit. Or maybe it just means "Riddles Are Bums". I don't know; I'll have to think about it some more. Anyway, it's just another theory to consider. Wanda From nawyecka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 20:03:47 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Whoever Snape is fooling... In-Reply-To: <1f3.e262ec1.3012a714@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050722200347.2449.qmail@web60414.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134299 Del: > If Snape is really a DE, then he's fooled DD all > those years. > > If Snape is really working for DD, then he's fooled > LV all those last years. Possibly this addresses why Snape reacted with so much venom at being called a coward. As he has been living for years under threat of an untimely and very nasty end from whoever he has been fooling. Especially so if it has been Voldemort he has been fooling. Larry From rklarreich at aol.com Fri Jul 22 22:57:26 2005 From: rklarreich at aol.com (rklarreich at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:57:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] R. Amelia Bones?/Apparition inconsistency? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134300 Jen writes: We have no evidence Bones was in the Order, however. But to be killed personally by LV--what in the world did she do? Was it over the DE's in Azkaban? Roberta now: Before the book came out, in the HBP predictions contest on this list Amelia Bones seemed the favorite for new Minister of Magic. (Based on my own unscientific impressions as I read the posts.) So when I discovered that Voldemort had killed her, my immediate instinct was that she would have been a strong contender for that post in the wizarding world too, and *that* is why Voldemort killed her. She would have been too effective, so she had to go. Unrelated question: in this book, we learn beyond a doubt that it is possible to take someone with you as a sort of passenger when you Disapparate. So why on earth didn't Lily and James Disapparate from Godric's Hollow with Harry That Night??? Lily at least would likely have had time to do it. Roberta From calamity469 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 23:09:53 2005 From: calamity469 at yahoo.com (calamity) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Proof (for me at least) that R.A.B. is Regulas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050722230953.33285.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134301 Lisa Rourke wrote: Like many of you, when I first saw the initials R.A.B. I immediately thought of Regulas. But others have come up with some interesting theories to the contrary. I think I found something that (to me anyway) seems to be proof positive. I remembered in OoP Harry and Sirius cleaning out the stuff in the drawing room. Among the objects that Sirius throws into a sack is ..."a heavy locket that none of them could open.." ( OoP pg. 116 American ed.). It seems to me that this is THE locket. Where it is now remains the question- with Kreacher's belongings at #12 or did Mundungus fence it with the other stolen objects? Cali write: Very good! I had forgotten about that locket. I have a sneaking suspicion it will be with Mundungus, as it would probably be too easy if Kreacher had it. Though, I predict, Harry will try Kreacher first in the next book. Back to Lisa: I also think Regulas had an accomplice since Harry and Dumbledore had to work together in order make it out of the cave. Cali's back: I don't think so. I think Regulas worked alone. After all, Dumbledore would have probably been able to make it, had he been in better health. Besides, we don't know how long the original person (if it WAS Regulas) took to complete the task. We know that the Inferi (hope that's the right term)attacked when DD drank the potion. Maybe Regulas (or whoever else) figured this would happen and prepared the fire (or another method) to keep the Inferi at bay until the task was completed? From jellocat at comcast.net Sat Jul 23 01:47:49 2005 From: jellocat at comcast.net (Jellocat) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:47:49 -0400 Subject: Another horcrux? In-Reply-To: <1121999592.8082.99275.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134302 Inkling said: JKR's oft quoted remark that if people knew she was a Christian, they could figure out what's coming in the series. Not being a Christian, I'm only familiar with the general story. So I'm guessing that perhaps you mean that Ron might betray Harry? Or that Harry will sacrifice himself for the good of the cause? Also, while thinking of where the horcruxes are, I remembered the passage where Hermione goes into Borgin and Burkes to find out what Draco was doing. While there, she asks about a necklace: "Hello, horrible morning, isn't it?" Hermione said brightly to Borgin, who did not answer, but cast her a suspicious look. Humming cheerily, Hermione strolled through the jumble of objects on display. "Is this necklace for sale?" she asked, pausing beside a glass-fronted case. "If you've got one and a half thousand Galleons," said Mr. Borgin coldly. "Oh... er... no, I haven't got quite that much," said Hermione, walking on. "And... what about this lovely... um... skull?" "Sixteen Galleons." What if THAT'S the horcrux necklace and not the one we all think is at Grimmauld Place? Or could it be another one? At least Harry could afford to buy it... Jellocat... Having a great time! From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Fri Jul 22 22:18:58 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn Berger-Barrera) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:18:58 -0400 Subject: for whom are the books named? In-Reply-To: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <008101c58eed$b71531a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <42E170D2.3080209@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134303 Sherry Gomes wrote: > this series is about Harry Potter. oh sure, it's also about Dumbledore, > Ron, Hermione, the Weasleys, Lupin, Sirius, Draco, Snape and Voldemort. > Among many others. but in the end, it is Harry's story. Jocelyn: It has always been Harry's story - from the beginning until Half-Blood Prince. This has been consistent and I suspect will continue in book 7. This is true. > Harry is the hero. Snape isn't the hero. Hermione isn't the hero. Sure, > in a side kick sort of way she is, just as much as Ron or any of Harry's > other friends. just as the Fellowship is in LOTR. Jocelyn: You bring up LOTR, so I 'll go with that. Frodo would never have managed to destroy the ring without major help from Stryder, Boromir, Sam, and even Smeegol (sp?). To the last he had very powerful people working to set the stage for Frodo, as the Ring Bearer, to destroy the ring. Without Smeegol, he would have failed. Snape is one of the heros, who, like stryder or Sam, will help Harry get to the top of the mountain, or battle a mortal Voldemort - once the hocruxes are destroyed. That's part of why we all seem so Snape-Obsessed. From a writer's viewpoint, one could also add that Snape's actions were to varying degrees shocking, unexpected, and dramatic. Hence, he was interesting. Harry will get more attention in the next book, but, in book 6, he was simply Harry. From ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk Fri Jul 22 23:12:14 2005 From: ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk (dewey_demon) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:12:14 -0000 Subject: Questions In-Reply-To: <20050722210715.15946.qmail@web50912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Neisha Saxena wrote: > I'm still wondering about some DD clues and > how will we will ever learn the answers? > > The big kahunas are: > > And why didn't DD kill Voldemort at the end of OOTP? > Was it just because he can't be killed in that way? > But, DD says there are things worse than death. What > would those be for Voldemort? Dewey Demon now: I think the reason for Dumbledore not killing Voldemort is as simple (?!?) as the fact that it's impossible to kill him while the horcruxes still exist. It is unclear whether Dumbledore is absolutely sure of their existence at this point, but within a few weeks he ha located the ring and de-horcruxed it, so he must suspect. Until all the horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemort cannot be killed. As for what would be worse than death? For Voldemort, nothing. For many others, immortality would be far worse than death (many lifetimes of watching loved ones grow old and die, for instance). Or some form of undeath. Or only have a small part of your soul left, because most of it is split into shreds and deposited in various objects... But to Voldemort, any of these options is preferable to death. David From mss4a at cstone.net Sat Jul 23 02:20:58 2005 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:20:58 -0000 Subject: Another horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jellocat" wrote: > Inkling said: > JKR's oft quoted remark that if people knew she was a Christian, they could > figure out what's coming in the series. > > > Not being a Christian, I'm only familiar with the general story. So I'm > guessing that perhaps you mean that Ron might betray Harry? Or that Harry > will sacrifice himself for the good of the cause? Oh, very interesting. I have never read this quote! This gets me thinking ... in my view, it's actually Snape who is the "redemptive" character of the series. I have always believed he was going to give his own life for the cause, completing the redemptive arc to his life. (In fact, until about an hour ago I believed he would do it in book 6!) If JKR did indeed say that, my guess is that it's Snape who will sacrifice himself. From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 02:28:58 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:28:58 -0000 Subject: The Cave In-Reply-To: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134306 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he >was being force-fed potion by HP. > >Is this snippets of the argument that DD had with Snape (overheard, >partially, by Hagrid)? Or snippets of a conversation between DD >and Snape after Snape realized what LV was going to do with the >prophecy information? > Saraquel: To me the complexities of the cave scene are such a key. There is the whole question of whose potion is it, are there memories stored in it, and what is happening to DD when he drinks it. I've got quite a few ideas about the potion, and have posted on this topic before, but my ideas change as I try to unravel its complexity. But, it is possible to make one theory about DDs ramblings if we assume that the potion DD takes is the one that he thinks he is going to take. (which in no way accounts for the - the original potion has been drunk by RAB and it is the replacement that DD is drinking - possibility. Unless you take into the account Ron's Felix Felicis experience of experiencing what he thought he ought to experience after taking that potion. You see what I mean about complexities!) All quotes from UK ED Before he drinks the potion DD says to Harry: Ch 26, p532 "I should have said, he would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island, He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes." So what potions would we put in to get that result? PS Pb edition ch8 p103 "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." This is also the potion which Harry made so brilliantly in HBP using Snape's potion book. This would keep someone alive, but leave them lying at the foot of the basin. Its colour is the palest of pink (HBP p 181) Veritaserum would of course ensure that they reveal their secrets. Veritaserum is colourless and odourless (HBP ch12 p175) There may well be another potion or potions involved here, as the colour of the potion in the basin is emerald green and luminescent. I'm sure that I've read of Hermione successfully making something like this, but I can't find it. Also, blending potions, may well not be the same as blending paint colours!! The luminescence of the potion could also indicate memories - can you add them to potions? and on p530 Harry says "he saw the light as coming from a stone basin rather like the Pensieve" There is also one interesting remark, which might well be a clue on p535 it says "Dumbledore drank, as though it was an antidote Harry offered him " But quite where that leads I don't know. If we watch the effect of the potion on DD, we see that half way through the fourth goblet he is described: (HBP Ch26, p534) "His face was twitching as though he were deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream." Now, assuming that Vertaserum is in the mix and Voldemort wants to find out DD's motives for getting the Horcrux, what do we make of what DD is saying. Well, I too thought it could well be DD's memory of Snape recanting. Although I was impressed by comment Digger made in his/her post about the torture of the children. BUT, if this is the memory of Snape's recanting, it really fits incredibly well with the Vertaserum theory. Remember, Voldemort wants to know why anyone would be intent on emptying the basin. Why does DD want to get the Horcrux? He wants to make sure that Harry survives. Why is Harry likely not to survive? Other than the fact that there might be more Horcruxes out there, the main thing in DDs mind is that Voldemort has chosen to believe the prophecy and acted upon it. If he had not chosen to act upon it there would be no problem for Harry. Ch23 p476 "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says in only significant because Voldemort made it so. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him ? and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!" Therefore DD reveals his true reason for trying to get the Horcrux in the basin is tied up with the interpretation of the prophecy and Harry's involvement. It is NOT just to try and destroy Voldemort. Hence, his memory of the first time he learned that Voldemort was going to act on what Snape had told him. Hope that's clear. Saraquel Who can't wait for the chapter discussion on this one. From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Jul 23 02:36:36 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:36:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why LV Wanted a Job Message-ID: <20.4956c040.30130734@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134307 In a message dated 7/22/2005 3:20:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lszydlowski at hotmail.com writes: Just couldn't believe Lord Thingy showed up at Hogwarts fot an interview for the DADA job. No resume, no suit. Thinking along Dumbledore's lines: why? what does he really want? We know he's looking for souvieners of the Founders. Wouldn't the Sorting Hat be the ultimate souvenir? MizStorge I was just discussing this with a friend today. My theory is that Voldemort was feeling DD out. I think he wanted to know what DD knew about his activities, and what if anything DD was planning to do to mount an opposition. He's to smart to have thought for a second that he'd be able to teach at Hogwarts. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c-katsos at northwestern.edu Sat Jul 23 02:33:05 2005 From: c-katsos at northwestern.edu (Christina Katsos) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:33:05 -0500 Subject: HPB writing/ Snape Timeline/ poor Lupin, and some other replies Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20050722212709.03b95630@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 134308 >>**Marcela now: I noticed that Hermione always thought that the writing >>looked like that of a woman's or girl's... She took a lot of teasing >>from the boys because of the Prince and not Princess connection... But >>maybe it was Lily's writing after all? Christina: I am 99% confident that it was Snape's writing in the book. Here's why: (US HBP 193): "Harry bent low to retrieve the book, and as he did so, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting...." (US OotP 641): "So Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen....he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet his writing was minuscule and cramped." As for the whole Snape/Lily business...I think her defense of him in OotP was due to the fact that she's just a nice girl who stands up for injustice; however, the fact that both she and Snape were little potions prodigies is heavily emphasized...I can imagine them collaborating once in a while and Snape really respecting her on an intellectual level. It seems to me that Snape would be the most likely to fall in love in an intellectual way, with someone's mind. >>lizvega: >>In Spinner's End, Snape tells Bella and Cissy that he was at >>Hogwarts when Voldemort fell, placed their under LV's orders. >>Fast forward 16 years and Dumbledore tells Harry that delivering the >>news of the prophesy to LV, and the ramifications of doing so, was >>perhaps the greastest regret of Snapes life. Harry assumes, and >>tells the other's in the hospital wing, that Snape came to Hogwarts >>because of his parents murder, not before it. Christina: This can all be factual and still make sense. Remember, Dumbledore got news that the Potters were in danger and put them into hiding (PoA, Chapter 10). The order of events probably went something like this: LV gets the prophesy from Snape, LV interprets the part of the prophesy he has and figures out his target (Harry), Dumbledore gets tipped off that the Potters are in danger and tells them to go into hiding, the Potters go into hiding, Peter Pettigrew tells LV how to find the Potters, and LV goes to find them in Godric's Hollow. Even if it was Snape himself that tipped off Dumbledore (realizing his terrible mistake and going to DD with remorse), he still would have been switching sides before the Potters died. According to Trelawney, Snape was looking for a job at around the same time she was interviewing for hers and made the prophesy (US HBP 545). The Potters were killed on October 31st, so we can probably assume that Snape started off that school year working at Hogwarts and had been teaching there for about two months when Voldemort fell. I don't find it difficult to believe that that much time would have lapsed between Snape overhearing the prophesy and the Potter's ultimate demise (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, the timeline at this point is really confusing). Not that I think Snape is telling the sisters the whole truth, but that's another story :) >>qtrimble: >>But what about Lupin? Was he at least warned? Possibly DD guessed >>that his leaving would be related to Black's escape and/or his being >>a werewolf and not the death of Lupin but still, the fact remains he >>was 'outed' as a result, and we were quite lucky that that was the >>full extent of his suffering. I can see Lupin agreeing to take the >>risk if he was warned but otherwise this seems quite dangerous to me. Christina: Is it possible that DD asked Lupin personally to come and teach for a year *because* of Sirius Black's escape? Perhaps DD wanted someone close by that knew Sirius and Harry's parents and could keep an eye on Harry's whereabouts? >>Tone: >>ALSO, unless Lupin intended to lie to Harry, he claimed >>the spell had been around for forever. Lupin trusts Harry and vice >>versa, why would he lie here? Christina: The exact quote is (HBP US 336): " 'But it sounds like it was invented while you were at school,' Harry persisted. 'Not necessarily,' said Lupin. 'Jinxes go in and out of fashion like everything else.' " >>Marianne: >>No provision in Sirius' will for any money to go to Remus. Christina: *Thank you!!!* This bothered me SO much. Harry has a ton of gold sitting in the bank, and poor Lupin can barely afford clothes! So sad :( >>heather: >>5. The Gryffindor rubies spilled all over the floor, glistening like >>blood. Hogwarts itself is bleeding. Love that. Christina: I loved this part, just because there's so many different ways you can look at the symbolism of it. When I first read it, I saw it as the granting of hundreds of symbolic "house points" to all of the Gryffindors fighting up in the tower, and a last tribute to the greatest Gryffindor of them all...Dumbledore *sniffle* I like the way JKR sneaks in references to Gryffindor in times of trouble...she did it at the end of OotP also, in Dumbledore's office...(US OotP 840): "The sun had risen fully now. Dumbledore's office was bathed in it. The glass case in which the sword of Godric Gryffindor resided gleamed white and opaque..." Such lovely writing. Hope this was all coherant :) Christina From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 03:09:17 2005 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (mehtare_lingolien) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:09:17 -0000 Subject: Harry: The UNintentional Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: "As another poster hypothesized, for Harry to kill LV, he has to impart Tom Riddle's soul back to him (making him mortal, perhaps?) and then kill him. However, as Brothergib hypothesized, DD's look of triumph when finding out that LV used Harry's blood may be because the use of Harry's blood released him from needing to die. This would make more sense if Tom Riddle's soul were in Harry's scar and not in Harry himself. After all, it was always his scar that hurt." Kel writes: Then how do you explain the link that Harry still had with Voldemort all during OotP? His scar kept hurting throughout Bk 5 as well. If the horcrux was simply in his scar and was given back to him during the graveyard scene near the end of the fourth book, what is up with all the twinging and nausea? Or have I simply misunderstood your point? Extrememly possible. :) -kel From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 23 03:41:20 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:41:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HPB writing/ Snape Timeline/ poor Lupin, and some other replies In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20050722212709.03b95630@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> References: <6.1.1.1.2.20050722212709.03b95630@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: <42E1BC60.9090908@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134310 Christina Katsos wrote: > >>lizvega: > >>In Spinner's End, Snape tells Bella and Cissy that he was at > >>Hogwarts when Voldemort fell, placed their under LV's orders. > >>Fast forward 16 years and Dumbledore tells Harry that delivering the > >>news of the prophesy to LV, and the ramifications of doing so, was > >>perhaps the greastest regret of Snapes life. Harry assumes, and > >>tells the other's in the hospital wing, that Snape came to Hogwarts > >>because of his parents murder, not before it. > > Christina: > This can all be factual and still make sense. Remember, Dumbledore got > news that the Potters were in danger and put them into hiding (PoA, Chapter > 10). The order of events probably went something like this: LV gets the > prophesy from Snape, LV interprets the part of the prophesy he has and > figures out his target (Harry), Dumbledore gets tipped off that the Potters > are in danger and tells them to go into hiding, the Potters go into hiding, > Peter Pettigrew tells LV how to find the Potters, and LV goes to find them > in Godric's Hollow. Even if it was Snape himself that tipped off > Dumbledore (realizing his terrible mistake and going to DD with remorse), > he still would have been switching sides before the Potters > died. According to Trelawney, Snape was looking for a job at around the > same time she was interviewing for hers and made the prophesy (US HBP > 545). The Potters were killed on October 31st, so we can probably assume > that Snape started off that school year working at Hogwarts and had been > teaching there for about two months when Voldemort fell. I don't find it > difficult to believe that that much time would have lapsed between Snape > overhearing the prophesy and the Potter's ultimate demise (someone please > correct me if I'm wrong, the timeline at this point is really > confusing). Not that I think Snape is telling the sisters the whole truth, > but that's another story :) Kathy writes: This all confuses me as well. Dumbledore said that Snape had been spying prior to the fall of Voldemort. Sibyll's prophecy was prior to Harry's birth. How much prior we don't know. We now know that Snape told Voldemort and it probably wasn't a big deal to a 22 year old that I tend to picture much like a nasty Percy. When he found out that it was the Longbottoms and Potters, he panicked. These were people that he new, and at least one of them, he liked. In OotP Sibyll had been teaching for sixteen years. One year before Harry was born, give or take a month or two. Snape had been teaching for 14 years. One year after Harry was born. Harry was fifteen months old when his parents were killed. The Potters must have been in hiding for almost two and a half years. Snape had been teaching for five months by the time they were killed. We don't know how long the Potters were hidden or how long Voldemort looked for them, or how they managed to attract his attention three times and survive before the prophecy. Snape was, until book 7, anyway, at Hogwarts as he told the sisters. I think that Snape is skirting around the truth a bit, but that is the only successful way to lie. Tell as much truth as possible and just change the small stuff. KJ From grega126 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 04:01:01 2005 From: grega126 at aol.com (greg_a126) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:01:01 -0000 Subject: R. Amelia Bones?/Apparition inconsistency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rklarreich at a... wrote: > Jen writes: > We have no evidence Bones was in the Order, however. But to be killed personally by LV--what in the world did she do? Was it over the DE's in Azkaban? > > > Roberta now: > > Before the book came out, in the HBP predictions contest on this list Amelia Bones seemed the favorite for new Minister of Magic. (Based on my own unscientific impressions as I read the posts.) So when I discovered that Voldemort had killed her, my immediate instinct was that she would have been a strong contender for that post in the wizarding world too, and *that* is why Voldemort killed her. She would have been too effective, so she had to go. > Just to further prove this point, look at the guy who ended up becoing the Minister of Magic. The guy who used to head the Auror division of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. So, basically the guy who used to work for Bones ended up becoming MoM. So if she hadn't died, it's perfectly reasonable that she would've gotten the job instead. Imagine the terror if the person you planned on voting for to become Minister was offed by Voldemort. Certainly implies that he can get to anyone, doesn't it? GregA126 From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jul 23 04:50:04 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:50:04 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The significance of Wormtail? In-Reply-To: <29.776c6a70.300ec56f@aol.com> References: <29.776c6a70.300ec56f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134313 >Rhianyn: >One thing I am struck by >... why is Wormtail in the scene at Spinners End? We know Herself does >nothing casually or extraneously ... so what is gained by having >Peter there? >Why him? What plot task does he have that relates to the Unbreakable Vow or >some other part of that scene? > >**Rhianyn settles on the comfortable armchair by the fire and curls her >fluffy tail about her just so.** I haven't seen an answer to this, so I will give my guess. I think Wormtail will have a minor, but important role in the last book and this is setting up some of his motivation. He expected to be honored by LV and the DE crowd, but instead, he is being treated like a lowly servant - far below what his expectations were. He is bound to feel resentful and sullen. Eventually, he might even feel justified in getting some of his own back. "Why help the bad guys if they just treat me like dirt anyway?" Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 04:53:20 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:53:20 -0000 Subject: Eileen Prince Snape (WAS:HPB writing/ Snape Timeline, etc) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20050722212709.03b95630@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134314 Marcela now: I noticed that Hermione always thought that the writing looked like that of a woman's or girl's... Christina: I am 99% confident that it was Snape's writing in the book. Here's why: (US HBP 193): "Harry bent low to retrieve the book, and as he did so, he saw , cramped handwriting...." (US OotP 641): "So Snape... his writing was minuscule and cramped." - - - - - - - - - - Bookworm: (US HBP 537): "Hermione pulled a very old piece of newsprint out... Harry picked up the crumbling piece of paper..." Could this piece of paper have been about 50 years old? Could Eileen Prince Snape have been a classmate of Tom Riddle's? Newspaper will turn yellow and become very brittle with age. Severus would be about 37-38 years old `this' year; if Eileen was 15 years old about 50 years ago, she would be have been about 28 when Severus was born. That fits with the timeframe Tom Riddle was at school; she would have been about 4 years younger than Tom. These calculations are based on the newspaper being 50 years old. Obviously, there is a large margin of error. 1931 Eileen born 1938 Tom Riddle enters Hogwarts (see Lexicon) 1942 Eileen Prince enters Hogwarts 1946 Eileen 15 (baseline for the calculations) 1959 Eileen 28, Severus born 1996 Eileen 63, Severus 37 If wizard children are usually home-taught when they are little, and Eileen taught her son to read and write, it wouldn't be surprising if Snape's handwriting resembles his mother's. What else did she teach him? Where did Severus learn all those Dark Arts he knew before he arrived at Hogwarts? From his mother? IIRC, once the trio found out Snape is the HBP, they just assumed he wrote the potions directions and other spells in the book. I suspect Eileen was the author of those spells, not her son. Ravenclaw Bookworm From logic_alley at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 05:14:23 2005 From: logic_alley at yahoo.com (logic_alley) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:14:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus (was: Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Gwennie wrote: > > I think it must have something to do with a person's fondest memory. > Because you have to concentrate so hard on what makes you happiest to > produce a patronus, it makes sense that the form it takes would have > something to do with someone or something you love. > > Carol responds: > Which brings me back to Snape--not his typically snarky response to > Tonks, but the very fact that he has a Patonus, as he *must* have in > order to communicate with the other Order members. (JKR refused to > reveal what it was for fear of giving too much away.) Based on what we > already know about Patronuses (Patroni?) and on JKR's recent remarks > about them on her website, this fact has some interesting implications. We've learned in HBP that someone's patronus can take on the shape of someone that person loves -- at least, I am interpreting Tonk's large 4-legged patronus to be a wolf or werewolf, because she loves Lupin. So maybe Snape's patronus can't be revealed because it has a shape related to someone he loves - namely Lily, if that speculation turns out to be right. Lily or something associated with her, and I can't think of any animal that we know of yet associated with her. Just speculating wildly, -- Logic Ally -- From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 05:41:01 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:41:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Position - Quirrell and 1-year Curse Message-ID: <97.63dc8bdb.3013326d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134316 Heather writes: >How could he /now/ be scared of his subject whereas he wasn't before, if he hasn't taught >DADA before? If he's taught DADA before, then Dumbledore can't be right in saying that he >hasn't been able to keep someone in this position for more than a year. Any thoughts? A bit of blatant straw-grasping here: Quirrel teaches DADA for one year, at least a year before Harry comes to Hogwarts. Then, for whatever reason, he leaves to go exploring. Then, shortly after he encounters Voldy, he goes to teach DADA at Sturmdrang. The students there will cause anyone to stutter. Then, amazingly, he returns to Hogwarts and askes for his old job back. Would Voldy's curse prevent Voldy from teaching DADA? I doubt it. Despite Quirrel's scared-of-his-own-shadow squirrellyness (is that a word?) Dumbledore gives him the job in the hopes that the return of a victim of the curse will break it. Which brings up another question. Between DD, Snape, the entire Order of the Phoenix, and Gilderoy Lockhart , why couldn't DD remove the curse? I suspect because he didn't want to. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 04:17:42 2005 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (mehtare_lingolien) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:17:42 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134317 > Pastafor5: > > The one key moment that makes me think (sadly) that Snape did this > out of loyalty to Voldemort rather than Dumbledore is when Draco > tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to his mother. > Dumbledore says it isn't true and that Snape just made that up to > get information from him. But we know that it was actually true. > If Dumbledore didn't know that, then it appears Snape must have been > loyal to Voldemort instead. > > Anyone see any loopholes? I hope so - it breaks my heart to think > that Snape could do that to Dumbledore. But then again, JK doesn't > hold back on showing that there are true evils in the world. Actually, you will be glad to know that I *did* think of a loophole. Hard as it may be to believe at first, DD lied when he made that reply. He couldn't let Draco (or any other present DEs) know that DD was aware all year long that Draco was up to something. Because the only person who would have informed DD of the plan is Snape. And if it's discovered (by the bad side) that Snape babbled.... -kel From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:00:42 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:00:42 EDT Subject: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview Message-ID: <66.5b6a318c.3013370a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134318 http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml Theories are shot down left and right in this one. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:11:42 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:11:42 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act Message-ID: <68.59ff434b.3013399e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134319 Missy wrote: And since everyone in the Order is currently buying Harry's side of what happened, I don't see Snape living through walking into Grimmauld Place. Julie says: What about Mad Eye Moody? He wasn't even around, was he? And Hagrid never actually said he bought Harry's version. In fact he didn't believe it at first (then it was glossed over later when he simply cried over the loss of Dumbledore). And, just to be picky, Charlie Weasley wasn't around either ;-) Also JKR mentioned we would learn more/something new about someone in the Order in Book 7 (I don't recall her exact quote). That could be someone who knows something involving Snape and Dumbledore that no one else does. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 05:44:54 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:44:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134320 I think the speculation about the Patronus is wonderful support for Snape being a "good" wizard. As we've seen, the patronus appears in the form of an animal (though Remus' is vague in that regard). And of course JKR would be revealing too much to say what it is. Again, we assume he has one because it seems to be a necessary part of being in the order, and I would assume that Dumbledore knows what it is as well. My guess? A phoenix. leslie41 From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jul 23 05:54:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:54:01 -0000 Subject: Possible message in Evil!Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134321 Let's assume for a moment that Snape in HBP is exactly what he seems - i.e. evil. I don't know whether he is or not and I'm not interested in arguing about it. The evidence is, as JKR perhaps intended, hopelessly muddled. All we can do is wait for whatever revelations might come in the final book. But let's suppose for the sake of argument that we do have Evil!Snape or at least Untrustworthy!Snape. What sort of theme could JKR be intending? Now, I don't think JKR is attempting to teach anyone anything in these books. She has denied doing any such thing, and I take her at her word. But she has also said that these are very moral books, so there probably would be some moral implication in such a development. Perhaps the theme would be that in the end each person has to decide for themselves what the truth is. You can't leave something that important to authority figures or relatives or friends -- no matter how intelligent or wise or informed or reasonable they are. Harry has decided that Snape is not trustworthy, and has been proven correct, despite the protests of reasonable people, intelligent friends, and authority figures. Harry thus is a model of someone who decides the important things in life for himself, which is a powerful theme. Just a speculation, which is all we will have for the next couple of years. :-) Lupinlore From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 06:09:28 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:09:28 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134322 JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. I'm wondering what we all should make of this. JKR's 3-part interview seems for the first time to really indicate that she believes Snape is evil. Yet in previous interviews she hinted that there was a redemptive pattern. I'm wondering what to think, because it seems in the books that she's making every effort to leave a good deal of room for interpretation (unlike Voldemort, Bellatrix, Lucius, Dudley, etc.). But in these three interviews...well it's really hard to believe that she's trying to fool us, especially since she says in the interview that when speaking about her books, she's never tried to mislead her readers. She seems to be saying that we're "clinging to a desperate hope" and Snape is worse than Voldemort, which is making it very hard for me to really support the clues in the text. What do ya'll think? leslie41 From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 06:29:01 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723062901.25658.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134323 > I'm wondering what we all should make of this. > JKR's 3-part > interview seems for the first time to really > indicate that she > believes Snape is evil. Yet in previous interviews > she hinted that > there was a redemptive pattern. > > She seems to be saying that we're "clinging to a > desperate hope" and > Snape is worse than Voldemort, which is making it > very hard for me > to really support the clues in the text. > > What do ya'll think? As I think, as a firm Snape-lover, the choice of wording is rather depressing. The word culpable is what got me there. She's basically saying that Snape is worthy of some blame here. Which makes me think that I'm one of the 'delusional desperate clingers' when it comes to Snape. It just would be so disappointing to have him be really evil after all this time. Snape has been one of my favorite fictional characters for years now. To have him be a bad guy after all...I don't know if my heart can take it! ~Silence __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:40:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:40:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation In-Reply-To: <001001c58efc$c1a86ab0$0288cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > Geoff: > > I'm sorry if I'm being thick but, in my UK copy (pp.552-553), > > Dumbledore's comment begins with "Come over to the right side, > > Draco...". > > > > It lacks your quoted first sentence which removes the point of your > > theory....Can you point me to the "He cannot kill you if you are > > already dead" quote, please? Richelle: > It's in the US edition, page 591-592. > > Right after Malfoy says "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. > I've got no choice." > > The US edition has Dumbledore saying "He cannot kill you if you are already > dead." > > After that it continues as the UK edition (I got mine today, so I can > compare) until "...likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in > your attempt to kill me--forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. > Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we captured and killed your > mother--it's what they would do themselves, after all." > > After that it continues as the UK edition with "Your father is safe at the > moment..." Geoff: So why such a dramatic change? This is Dumbledore expressing apparently totally different thoughts to the UK edition. What's going on? Ideas out there? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:48:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:48:37 -0000 Subject: Music for Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > What I really want is a wordless lament, probably a classical > music piece, that gets us as close as possible to the feeling Harry > had when he listened to Fawkes singing. Can anyone offer a > suggestion? Of course, no one's bound to my preferences; feel free to > mention any song that reminds you of Dumbledore's death. > > Not that I need anything else to make me cry-- JKR's done that to > me already. But I think we need a song to fit this occasion. Geoff: Could I suggest the choral version of Barber's "Adagio for Strings" - which /is/ wordless. It's got a different name in this version and I can'r remember what it is! From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:52:43 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 02:52:43 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's Last Act Message-ID: <12f.61aa596d.3013433b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134326 John K writes: I thought for several days that Snape must have been good, that it must have been planned, that Dumbledore must have been right. Now I'm fairly sure this is wrong. Here's why: 1) Snape injures Flitwick, to take him and Hermione out of the battle. I can't see how this proves Snape isn't good. ESE!Snape could have easily killed Flitwick and at the very least given Hermoine a nasty jolt of Dark Magic considering that he's never liked her. Meanwhile SecretlyGood!Snape would do just what Snape did here, take them out of the battle without seriously hurting anyone (just as DD took Harry out of the battle by freezing him). 2) Dumbledore would never have planned for Snape to use Avada Kedavra, or allowed him to do it. It is evil, unforgivable, and splits your soul (even if you aren't creating a horcrux). Some of the Aurors have used Unforgivables, so apparently it they don't leave a mark on your soul (or whatever it is they do) if your intentions are in some manner noble (you're fighting for good). I also believe that you have to intentionally split your soul, isn't that what Voldemort did? Finally, I'm not completely convinced Snape did use the Avada Kedavra. You have to really mean it, and if Snape didn't mean it, and silently sent an expellaramus curse (or whatever) then the Avada Kedavra didn't actually take place. Given that DD didn't react as other Avada Kedavra victims have, that could support the idea that it appeared Snape AK'd Dumbledore. 3) Phineas says: "We Slytherins, given the choice, will always choose to save our own necks." Snape doesn't think Harry has the ability to defeat Voldemort. He knows about the prophecy. Thus, he thinks Voldemort will win. Thus, he chooses the side that will save his neck. While the sorting hat may never be wrong, as with all humans, the differences are greater between students in the same house than between one house and another house. Wormtail chose to save his own neck despite that not being a *typical* Gryffindor trait. And if there was ever an atypical Slytherin, Snape seems to be it. 4) Think about how long it took him in OotP to alert the Order that Harry had gone to the ministry. Plenty of time for the Death Eaters to kill him and/or get the prophecy. I still have problems with that whole passage of time. It is so not clear if JKR just messed up the maths or it was intentional. If it was intentional, I can't see why someone didn't remark on it. That would include Snape not mentioning it at Spinner's End. "I held off informing Dumbledore about Potter's excursion to the Ministry as long as I could, but that still wasn't enough time for you to do your job, was it (Bella)?" TLC/Mugglenet interview clues, though I hate alluding to it because parts of it were so rude: 5) JKR agrees that Dumbledore trusts people to the point of recklessness. It's fairly well implied here that she means Snape. I don't agree that this is fairly well implied, though I agree she leaves that interpretation very open, on *purpose.* JKR is simply not going to spoil anything about Book 7. And since, we've seen Dumbledore trust those who others won't--Hagrid and Lupin immediately come to mind--saying he trusts to the point of recklessness is true and need not even refer to Snape. 6) JKR is surprised when it is suggested that Dumbledore may have planned his own death, and she seems to come close to dismissing the theory the same way she dismissed the H/HR shippers. Not even close. JKR did her famous *pause* when asked then question, something she does quite frequently. Then she asked, either innocently or sly ingenuousness, "So you think that's going to be the big theory?" Between JKR's pauses, "erm"s and "um"s, "Really? People think that?"s, "I can't say"s, and general nonanswers, she interviews just like she writes, cryptically. And intentionally so, I'm sure! 7) This is my bitterness talking, but it seems that anyone who overlooks the obvious in the books to seek out more complex motivations and explanations is foolhardy, indeed. As much as I hate to think this, perhaps theories such as Snape's innocence give JKR and her plot too much credit. I don't feel like I'm overlooking the obvious, but I am reading the clues. JKR's writing is and always has been about deciphering the clues. I for one will feel a bit disappointed if she's laid down so many cryptic plot points and clues in Book 6 and they all come to naught. Based on her past performance, I give JKR and her plot a great deal of credit, and I hope to be rewarded for my faith in her ;-) All my opinion, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 06:53:02 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:53:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134327 First of all, I'm glad it's now 1 a.m. and I can post again, though I don't imagine using up any more of my posts in the near future. Secondly, and the important stuff, is... SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener (GoF), and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't have accurate after-the-fact accounts. In the first three cases, five deaths, all victims were completely unharmed. In fact, the Muggle police examined the Riddles and found nothing wrong with them. Cedric and the Gardener (whose name escapes me) instantly dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. Wait, excuse me? All the others were completely unharmed by the spell, except for the simple fact that they died, instantly. DD, on the other hand, recieved a massive trauma and was thrown outward, and then dropped to the ground. This leads me to believe that Snape was unable to form a proper AK spell, because he honestly did not want to. Since we know that unsuccessful spells usually only make a partial effect, think about the numerous Transfiguration classes, Snape did not have what was required to kill DD. We know that someone must hate and want to cause pain for a Crucio spell to work, and I believe that the other Unforgivables are similar in nature. One must want to control someone else entirely for Impervius to work, and for the victim to actually die for the AK. When fake!Moody encouraged the class to use AK spells on him, he said he expected no more than a nose bleed. Since Snape is much more powerful, and NEEDED DD to die (even if he didn't want it), he caused considerably more damage. If Snape was ESE or even playing both sides, as so many of you expect, why wasn't he able to kill DD properly? Because Snape is on the 'good' side after all. How he will be useful, or convey that to the OotP/Harry, I have very little idea. I am not writing the books, and do want to hear some of JKR's fabulous ideas to work this out in HP7. If you managed to make it through all of that without throwing up, this might just do the trick. It is very unlikely Fawkes will come to be with Harry, much like Kreacher did, since Fawkes had ample time to return to him after DD's death and did not do so. Unless, of course, Fawkes has some other duty to preform first, and will return later. I do think it's likely, however, Fawkes will turn up at the Final Showdown, if not sooner. Many people dislike the seemingly sudden relationship between Harry and Ginny, but it's not so surprising and far-fetched. Ginny has become increasingly important and part of the group, ever since she hid behind Mrs. Weasley at the train station in SS/PS, to he CoS involvement (key player, but minor in book), to MoM/DA, etc. I think it's wonderful how JK managed to slowly increase her importance throughout all the books, and land her in one of the few logical relationships left, unless you H/Hr's want to leave Ginny and Ron out in the cold. Of course..... ew, no, that stops there. Finally, some of you thought suddenly falling for Ginny is very unlikely. Some of you are also not quite the same age as Harry anymore, are you? I happen to be 18, and had a girl in four of my classes at school, when suddenly, after six months, I crushed on (fell for, whatever you want to call it) her, for no reason. It can happen. Tone, who after all that realizes it is nearly 2 and took him about half an hour to write this. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 07:18:43 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:18:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > First of all, I'm glad it's now 1 a.m. and I can post again, though I > don't imagine using up any more of my posts in the near future. > > Secondly, and the important stuff, is... SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON > DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we > have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener > (GoF), and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't > have accurate after-the-fact accounts. In the first three cases, > five deaths, all victims were completely unharmed. In fact, the > Muggle police examined the Riddles and found nothing wrong with > them. Cedric and the Gardener (whose name escapes me) instantly > dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. > Wait, excuse me? All the others were completely unharmed by the > spell, except for the simple fact that they died, instantly. DD, on > the other hand, recieved a massive trauma and was thrown outward, and > then dropped to the ground. This leads me to believe that Snape was > unable to form a proper AK spell, because he honestly did not want > to. Since we know that unsuccessful spells usually only make a > partial effect, think about the numerous Transfiguration classes, > Snape did not have what was required to kill DD. We know that > someone must hate and want to cause pain for a Crucio spell to work, > and I believe that the other Unforgivables are similar in nature. > One must want to control someone else entirely for Impervius to work, > and for the victim to actually die for the AK. When fake!Moody > encouraged the class to use AK spells on him, he said he expected no > more than a nose bleed. Since Snape is much more powerful, and > NEEDED DD to die (even if he didn't want it), he caused considerably > more damage. I've heard this argument before and I don't buy it. I think you are overthinking things. Te bolt struck DD and he merely fell backwards once his body when limp. the muscles relaxed in death and his body just slipped. Occam's Razor. > Many people dislike the seemingly sudden relationship between Harry > and Ginny, but it's not so surprising and far-fetched. Ginny has > become increasingly important and part of the group, ever since she > hid behind Mrs. Weasley at the train station in SS/PS, to he CoS > involvement (key player, but minor in book), to MoM/DA, etc. I think > it's wonderful how JK managed to slowly increase her importance > throughout all the books, and land her in one of the few logical > relationships left, unless you H/Hr's want to leave Ginny and Ron out > in the cold. Of course..... ew, no, that stops there. I don't see it as logical. I see the ship as creepy freudian shippiness with a boring female character. *lavender* is more interesting than Ginny at this point. There is all sorts of symbolism and no chemistry in their relationship. It's sterile and lacks heat and passion. > Finally, some of you thought suddenly falling for Ginny is very > unlikely. Some of you are also not quite the same age as Harry > anymore, are you? I happen to be 18, and had a girl in four of my > classes at school, when suddenly, after six months, I crushed on > (fell for, whatever you want to call it) her, for no reason. It can > happen. two points. First of all, sudden changes in level of attraction usually happen when the status quo changes. for example, I fell for a friend of mine that I would never have thought I could develop feelings for. Then she came back from college one summer and bam-- romantic summer fling. T change, she took of surfing, dropped a fifty pounds, and got abs like a fitness model. there wasn't any changes in appearance or any other real changes with Ginny. Harry didn't develop feelings for her until more than a year after she got more confident around him. Way too long. And I don't buy subconcious attraction. we live in Harry's head and Harry's point of view. We knew the second Harry was attracted to every other crush he had in the series, to pull some kind of sudden mystery attraction on us is bad form--not to mention poor writing. second point, while sudden attractions happen in real life, when we are dealing with the main character of a long standing series we need this thing called foreshadowing and considering how many people shipped Harry with someone other than Ginny, JKR did a pretty bad job of it. phoenixgod2000 From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 23 07:29:18 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:29:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E1F1CE.7070005@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134329 smartone564 wrote: > First of all, I'm glad it's now 1 a.m. and I can post again, though I > don't imagine using up any more of my posts in the near future. > > Secondly, and the important stuff, is... SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON > DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we > have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener > (GoF), and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't > have accurate after-the-fact accounts. In the first three cases, > five deaths, all victims were completely unharmed. In fact, the > Muggle police examined the Riddles and found nothing wrong with > them. Cedric and the Gardener (whose name escapes me) instantly > dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. > Wait, excuse me? All the others were completely unharmed by the > spell, except for the simple fact that they died, instantly. DD, on > the other hand, recieved a massive trauma and was thrown outward, and > then dropped to the ground. This leads me to believe that Snape was > unable to form a proper AK spell, because he honestly did not want > to. giant snip Kathy writes: You make some very good points. What I am finding intiguing at the moment is how an Unbreakable Vow determines whether or not it has been fulfilled. Does it require the complete conviction of the person who is fulfilling the vow that the vow has been fulfilled? Does the person who bonded the vow have to release the vow as being satisfied? If the whole Avada Kedavra was faked, which I don't believe, by the way, would Dumbledore's death from a fall, or the drink still satisfy the vow? If he was only able to fulfill parts of the vow, protect him, (which he did), do the job if he couldn't, (which he did), and help him fulfill his task, (which he didn't because Draco refused to let him), does that have any effect on the Unbreakable Vow. Is the Vow deactivated because you did your level best and failed, or is failure death? Apparently it is not necessary to totally understand the Vow to participate in it, as described by Ron. Arthur Weasley obviously took it very, very seriously that a child was being asked to make an Unbreakable Vow. Would it have killed an unsuspecting child, or does some idea of what you are promising need to be a part of the Vow. Any thoughts??? KJ From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 06:43:44 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Importance of hands In-Reply-To: <1121966622.2107.5765.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050723064345.16746.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134330 Amy wrote: Could, "and either must die at the hand of the other . . ." (pg 841 of Order of the Phoenix, (US edition) have anything to do with the actual giving up the right hand ???? Morgan here: I think this is an excellent point. It has been brought up earlier (sorry, can't remember who) that the final confrontation between Harry and LV will not involve wands. Since the ritual to bring LV back to his body invovled losing a hand, it would make sense that to defeat him would require a similar sacrifice - not necessarily by Harry, though. AD also sacrificed a hand. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 08:25:54 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:25:54 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134331 Del wrote: > Whenever I think of the second chapter of HBP, "Spinners End", I get > the nagging feeling that JKR is playing with us. Mainly, my main > concern is: what is the POINT of that chapter?? Carol responds: I don't know if you read my post 134206, which tried to answer the objection that the chapter was just "checking items off a list," but here's the link in case you're interested: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134206 At any rate, I think "Spinner's End" is a giant red herring geared mostly to those who believe that Snape is evil and want their views confirmed. What it actually gives is not the true answers to all the questions that both Harry and the reader have been asking about Snape, but the lies and half-truths that he told Voldemort, and thanks to Occlumency, was able to convince him were true. (Of course he probably has a few remaining doubts, like Bellatrix, but the Unbreakable Vow changes that for her and him.) For the reader, it does one of two things. Some readers, those who have always thought of Snape as evil, will say "Aha! I told you so!" and eagerly read on to see him prove his unworthiness. For the reader who has always seen Snape as an ambiguous figure, unpleasant but almost certainly on the side of good, it sets up doubts--an initial "this can't be true" reaction that anticipates the climactic moment when he kills Dumbledore. (It also shows, as I think you said yourself, a very confident, controlled Snape, very much in charge of the situation, knowing exactly how to deal with Wormtail and the two very different women.) My reaction was to start thinking feverishly about the potential consequences of that accursed oath, which I knew put Snape at a terrible risk, regardless of whether he was good or evil, and it certainly started my doubting him as I never would have done otherwise (and never did in any other book). In a sense, it provided a buffer. Without that chapter, Dumbledore's death at the hands of Snape would have been such a shock to me that I would never have read any of the books again, and I think, based on the initial shocked reactions of other list members, that it did the same for many of them, whether their shock was at the loss of Dumbledore (which many of us anticipated but nevertheless felt numbed and saddened by) or the seeming perfidy of Snape, which disturbed me, and probably others, much, much more. So, as I said in the post I linked to, I think we're seeing a variation on the unreliable narrator here, ironically a "dramatic" narrator who reports the scene without commentary and without a POV character, which reduces us to Wormtail's position, listening at keyholes (ironic since we later find out that Snape did the same thing; he was the eavesdropper at the Hogs Head). So JKR wants us to think the worst of him, just as she did in SS/PS, only this time it will be a whole lot trickier, and a whole lot more interesting, to see how she can possibly redeem him since he did unquestionably kill Dumbledore. BTW, I like the ingenious theories that are popping up regarding Snape and I hope the Snape defenders are right. As I said before, I would really hate to have all the sophisticated characterization that JKR has put into Snape, making him so real and complex and mysterious, be for nothing. And I'd hate, too, for Dumbledore, who seemed so wise with Draco, even weakened and helpless as he was, to be reduced to piteously begging Snape for his life, having foolishly trusted him with no better reason than Snape's claim of remorse for the death of a man that he hated. Chapter 2 has *not* given us all the answers. It's a trap for the unwary, and I think we should hesitate before believing Snape's words to a Voldemort worshipper and a hysterical mother. He's telling them what he needs them to believe, which should not be mistaken for the truth, or at least not the whole truth. Anyway, I liked the prominence the chapter gave to Snape. I hated and still hate the terrible position it placed him in--protect Draco at any cost, even if it means to do evil or die. My only comfort, my only hope, is that it must have been done, somehow and for some reason, on Dumbledore's orders, or on his own initiative, to save Draco at a terrible price to himself. My fear is the consequences of committing murder, regardless of his unwillingness to commit it, and particularly of casting an Avada Kedavra, an Unforgiveable Curse. I wish we could get inside his head to feel the anguish, the terrible grief and remorse, that he must feel but can't show. And surely if he were evil he would have gloated or triumphed, basking in his supposed glory. Instead, he concentrated on rescuing Draco (for which chapter 2 prepared us) and on saving Harry from being cruciod while trying to give him a last-minute, unappreciated lesson (for which it didn't). Sorry. I know you were only complaining about chapter 2. But I think it established the importance of Snape to the book, it set up the Unbreakable Vow, and it provided seeming answers that I hope we will discover are lies. Hope this helps. Carol From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 08:40:10 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:40:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > phoenixgod wrote: > Second point, while > sudden attractions happen in real life, when we are dealing with the > main character of a long standing series we need this thing called > foreshadowing and considering how many people shipped Harry with > someone other than Ginny, JKR did a pretty bad job of it. > > phoenixgod2000 Max responds: I certainly agree there could have been more exposition leading up to the big monster rearing his head, but there was *enough* foreshadowing to make it seem believable, imo. And I am most definitely not a shipper, though I've enjoyed reading some of the debates. To me it is not important how many people shipped or didn't ship H/G (though I believe H/G has a large following). What is more important is who did readers feel Harry would actually end up with (regardless of their particular preference). In poll after poll Ginny won, hands down. Lucky guess?. . . I think not. Sounds like there was enough foreshadowing to me. :) From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 06:47:54 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:47:54 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050723062901.25658.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134333 ~Silence: > As I think, as a firm Snape-lover, the choice of > wording is rather depressing. The word culpable is > what got me there. She's basically saying that Snape > is worthy of some blame here. Which makes me think > that I'm one of the 'delusional desperate clingers' > when it comes to Snape. > > It just would be so disappointing to have him be > really evil after all this time. Snape has been one of > my favorite fictional characters for years now. To > have him be a bad guy after all...I don't know if my > heart can take it! If Snape does turn out to be evil, I'll be disappointed not just because I guess I expected better of him, but because, well...it just seems so *boring*. However I at least hope I won't go stark raving mad if that's what happens in book 7. It's been embarrassing to witness the complete insane fandom meltdown with H/Hr shippers in the past week (esp. with regard to these interviews) I'm not a canon nazi anyway, really. (Otherwise I wouldn't read Snarry fics!) Despite my previous optimism, keeping my fingers crossed about Snape, in the wake of these interviews, seems like a foolish hope, no matter what seems to be in the text. I think I will start resigning myself to the ESE theory, and then if it doesn't turn out that way, it will be a nice surprise. (:^I Leslie41 From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 07:08:21 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seven horcruxes and no more In-Reply-To: <1121991615.2133.89834.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050723070821.69417.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134334 CathyD wrote: What I'd like to know is why DD never commented that he may have made more since his re-birthing, shortly after which he would have found out from Malfoy about the diary being destroyed. What's prevented LV from 'topping them up to six' again? Morgan here: I think the key here is the importance of the number seven. Seven is a highly significant religious number: seven days of creation, seven seals of revelation, etc. (even Hebrew National hot dogs come in packs of seven, instead of eight). Seven is considered lucky in our own society, and we have several instances of its importance: seven days of the week, seven wonders of the world, etc. But in the books the significance is great as well. Seven books, seven tasks in book 1, seven bottles of potion in book 1, seven Weasley children .... I could go on for pages and many websites have. LV even discussed with Slughorn the importance of the number seven. It is more magical than other numbers. LV would not create replacement horcruxes and damage the delicate balance created by this number. He believes the number of horcruxes increases their magical content - the number was chosen carefully and intentionally. The destruction of three (diary, locket, and ring) does not negate their existence. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyljd at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 07:29:10 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:29:10 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134335 Leslie41 wrote: > JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable > even than Voldemort, who never has. > SNIP > She seems to be saying that we're "clinging to a desperate > hope" and Snape is worse than Voldemort, which is making it > very hard for me to really support the clues in the text. > > What do ya'll think? I believe JKR will destroy Snape in Book 7. Every Snape fan's worst case scenario will be played out. I'll never accept her reasoning on this but I'm going to let it sink into my head. We should take JKR at her word. She hates Snape. Period. She may love to hate him but she hates him none the less. And he's her creation. She can destroy him if she wants to. Perhaps this is her way of dealing with childhood trauma caused by the evil teacher she spoke of in an earlier interview? Whatever her purpose is in this, I'll never like it. But after six books I have no choice but to read the final dismal chapter. Still bitter, Ljd From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 07:30:05 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry/Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: <1122033573.1710.72431.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050723073005.23728.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134336 d. wrote: So maybe the BIG thing about Lily's eyes was simply that, sometimes in book 7 it will reveal the 'Lily can see the good in people when others/the person himself can't see' thing. And finally Harry, dropping or seeing throughthose tinted glasses, he can clearly see the truth and good in certain people (oh my WHO would that be...) Morgan here: I always assumed that the connection between their eyes is tears. If Lily cried while facing LV, her tears were part of the magic that protected her. Harry hasn't had to cry that way - he fights shedding tears even at AD's funeral. Think a la Fawke's healing power. --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyljd at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 07:39:19 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:19 -0000 Subject: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134337 Lupinlore wrote: > Perhaps the theme would be that in the end each person has to > decide for themselves what the truth is. You can't leave > something that important to authority figures or relatives or > friends -- no matter how intelligent or wise or informed or > reasonable they are. Harry has decided that Snape is not > trustworthy, and has been proven correct, despite the protests > of reasonable people, intelligent friends, and authority figures. > Harry thus is a model of someone who decides the important things > in life for himself, which is a powerful theme. I believe the plot device is intended to demonstrate Harry's leadership and superior powers of perceptions to the older, more intelligent and experienced people around him. Proven right about Snape, his direction should be trusted and followed by everyone (including himself). I believe JKR's moral is something along the lines of being true to yourself and trusting your instincts. Perhaps a story of self empowerment? This is not appealing to me but I believe that's where she'll wind up. So, folks, if it looks evil and acts evil then it must be evil! Nothing more to see here. Move along! Okay, so I'm still bitter, Ljd From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Sat Jul 23 07:48:31 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:48:31 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <20050721113656.26798.qmail@web86209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134338 Valky wrote: > OTOH it doesn't explain his contempt for Hermione, > which is definitely not fair, although she *is* > sometimes insufferable, and thoughtless or too > intellectual in her reasoning and dealings with > people, but Snape took his disliking to her at > first sight, it was plain not on. Thanks for the praise Vaiky! I'm blushing... In relation to Hermione though, it could just once again come down to Snape being a miserable old git. Remember JKR said, 'Who would ever fall in love with Snape?' Obviously I'm not suggesting he's in love with Hermione - that's as ludicrous as the idea of Harry and Hermione being in love! (Sorry - unashamed H/G shipper - couldn't resist!) But it is possible that he's just unpleasant to all girl students because they stand for the girls that never dated him when he was at school. The fact that Hermione is so clever just means he gives it to her more. Clementine From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 09:44:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:44:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" > wrote: > > phoenixgod wrote: > > > Second point, while > > sudden attractions happen in real life, when we are dealing with the > > main character of a long standing series we need this thing called > > foreshadowing and considering how many people shipped Harry with > > someone other than Ginny, JKR did a pretty bad job of it. > > > > phoenixgod2000 > > Max responds: > > I certainly agree there could have been more exposition leading up to > the big monster rearing his head, but there was *enough* foreshadowing > to make it seem believable, imo. And I am most definitely not a > shipper, though I've enjoyed reading some of the debates. > > To me it is not important how many people shipped or didn't ship H/G > (though I believe H/G has a large following). What is more important > is who did readers feel Harry would actually end up with (regardless > of their particular preference). In poll after poll Ginny won, hands > down. Lucky guess?. . . I think not. Sounds like there was enough > foreshadowing to me. :) Ginny wins those polls because people like the symmetry of H/G not the character of Ginny or 'foreshadowing'. People like the idea of Harry rescuing his LI from the big bad monster. They like that Harry (who looks just like his dad) has a gf that is just like his mom (red head and all). It can't be about the actual character of Ginny because the people who shipped Ginny with Harry when she was a shy, tongue tied girl are still shipping her with Harry now that she is a spunky power ranger. The girl's are totally different. How can they both be his perfect girl? the answer is that they can't be. It's not about Ginny the character, its about what Ginny represents, which is symmetry in the life story of Harry Potter. Some people like it, I happen to think it is bizzare. If Luna Lovegood had been the redheaded girl in the story she would have been the one everyone would have voted for, because the symmetry would then be tied to her. There really isn't much to the actual character of Ginny. She's just an amalgam of various Weasley traits in a boring Gryffindor package. Aside from her amusingly pathological fear of talking books, Ginny is a remarkably shallow character. There just isn't much to her. Nothing that would indicate the sort of connection that Harry supposedly feels for her by the end of the book. The only part of the story with any spark between Harry and Ginny is in their breakup scene. But since we saw almost nothing of them together, or any scenes that showed how Harry became so invested in her, it rang hollow. A breakup scene between two people you hardly see together isn't all that stiring. Sometimes I wonder if JKR sees a different character than the one she is putting to paper. She talks about how Ginny is a powerful witch in the mugglenet interview, something that she thinks is evident through events in the books, but I don't see it. When has Ginny ever done anything extraordinarily magical? She talks about Harry and Ginny being equals in HBP but where is that? How can she be the equal of the story's hero? What has she done to be given that mantle? Harry/Ginny shipping is not about Ginny. It hasn't ever been really about Ginny. How can it be when Ginny's true nature is such a recent revelation? It's about one thing. She's a redhead he rescued from the big bad monster. phoenixgod2000, who wishes Luna could have been a redhead because that would actually have been interesting. Ahh, well. There will always be fan fiction From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 23 09:55:42 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:55:42 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyljd" wrote: > Leslie41 wrote: > > JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable > > even than Voldemort, who never has. > > > a thought on this...Perhaps, JKR is not speaking of sexual, romantic love, but of a mother's love. I have to think that the fact we were truly told about Snape's parents has something to do with it. I am thinking that Snape's mum loved him very much. I do think his mother is dead and probably died when he was a young boy - perhaps prior to him entering Hogwarts. I know there is nothing canon about my statement - my woman's intution is yelling at me right now :) (I just really hate the Lily/Snape stuff - if I want a harliquin romance story with a love triangle, I'll buy those books - just saying. I know some really get into it, but, alas, I am not one of those) > > > She seems to be saying that we're "clinging to a desperate > > hope" and Snape is worse than Voldemort, which is making it > > very hard for me to really support the clues in the text. > > > > What do ya'll think? > > > I believe JKR will destroy Snape in Book 7. Every Snape fan's > worst case scenario will be played out. > > I'll never accept her reasoning on this but I'm going to let it > sink into my head. We should take JKR at her word. She hates > Snape. Period. She may love to hate him but she hates him none > the less. And he's her creation. She can destroy him if she > wants to. > > Perhaps this is her way of dealing with childhood trauma caused > by the evil teacher she spoke of in an earlier interview? Whatever her purpose is in this, I'll never like it. But after six books I have no choice but to read the final dismal chapter. > Still bitter, > > Ljd > another thought on this one. Teachers I LOATHED when I was younger, I know understand and have a greater respect of what they were doing & teaching. Granted, I never had a teacher like Snape, but I did have strict teachers, who were not my favorites at the time - nor now. But, as an adult, I can look back at those years and understand what they were trying to teach me and why certain methods were employed. Perhaps, as a child, she saw the "evil" teacher as Harry sees Snape. As an adult, she now sees the teacher as not evil, but a person who has faults and weaknesses, and understands the motives. I don't know - just guessing and projecting here. But it is more fun to write an 'evil' character - most actors prefer playing the evil person than the good person. I think JKR doth protests too much... I think that Snape will be off'd in book 7. However, didn't JKR once state that she kills off characters she likes? hmmmm.. colebiancardi (not bitter, but hopeful for Snape's redeemption) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jul 23 10:07:52 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:07:52 -0000 Subject: Ginny (was: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > > Many people dislike the seemingly sudden relationship between Harry > and Ginny, but it's not so surprising and far-fetched. Ginny has > become increasingly important and part of the group, ever since she > hid behind Mrs. Weasley at the train station in SS/PS, to he CoS > involvement (key player, but minor in book), to MoM/DA, etc. I think > it's wonderful how JK managed to slowly increase her importance > throughout all the books, and land her in one of the few logical > relationships left, unless you H/Hr's want to leave Ginny and Ron out > in the cold. Of course..... ew, no, that stops there. > > Finally, some of you thought suddenly falling for Ginny is very > unlikely. Some of you are also not quite the same age as Harry > anymore, are you? I happen to be 18, and had a girl in four of my > classes at school, when suddenly, after six months, I crushed on > (fell for, whatever you want to call it) her, for no reason. It can > happen. > Hickengruendler: If only I could agree with you. But I found the Harry/Ginny pairing really awful, it was about the only thing in the book that I disliked. (Well, I also thought Remus/Tonks came a bit too much out of the blue, but since they hardly got any screentime I can accept that their relationship developed off-screen). And it really isn't that I didn't want this pairing to happen. I love Ron/Hermione and despite of JKR sinking the ship, I also have a slight bias towards a Neville/Luna pairing. As you can see, Harry/Ginny should be one of my favourite pairings as well, or at least I shouldn't mind, since it doesn't threaten one of my other favourite pairings. I thinky my main problem with this pairing is Ginny. I can really think of no other character in the books (at least out of those with a similar amount of screentime) that interests me less. Since OotP I'm deeply dissatisfied with Ginny's characterisation and HBP did nothing to change my opinion. It seems to me that JKR simply hit us over the head with Ginny's "greatness". She's cool. She's funny. She's beautiful. She's spunky. She's popular. She's everything. And everyone agrees, even, as we learn in HBP, a Death Eater thinks she's hot. Really, has this girl any flaws left, that makes her character interesting? And if she showed some questionale behaviour, like snapping at Ron, than I didn't really have the impression that we are supposed to see this as character flaws, because the narrator IMO strongly implied, that this part of Ginny's "cool" character, and it's rather the positive side of this, namely that she isn't afraid of saying her opinion, that is emphasized. And this can't be simply explained away by the "Harry point of view", since nobody seems to acknowledge Ginny's flaws. If Harry hadn't cared about them, but somebody else had, than I would be much more satisfied and wouldn't write this post now. Also, I'm not sure what message JKR wants to deliver with it. Is the only girl worthy of Harry Potter someone who is virtually flawless? That would be truly a pity, since Harry himself is a very well rounded character with many strengths and flaws, and I think his love- interest deserves to be this as well. I can see Harry becoming more and more interested her, seeing that her "real" character was kept from hin in the first four books. But what disturbed me was that Ginny said, that she never gave up on him. Because the problem is, that her crush was superficial. It has to be, because she already had a crush on him, before she even got to know him. I do think that we are supposed to think that she got to know Harry over the years and now fell in love with him as a person, but I'm not sure if this really possible if she never got over the crush on the boy who lived. Hickengruendler, who now, that Draco got a bit more depth, really thinks that Ginny is his least favourite character From s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 23 11:00:52 2005 From: s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk (rehtse) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:00:52 +0200 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134342 Leslie41 says: > I think the speculation about the Patronus is wonderful > support for Snape being a "good" wizard. > > My guess? A phoenix. EstherS says: I think Snape's Patronus is Dumbledore. EstherS A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle. From ladinechan at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 09:59:30 2005 From: ladinechan at hotmail.com (comomegusta6) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:59:30 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134343 MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has. (From the interview posted in mugglenet.com, part 3) Reading this fragment made me wonder this: what if (one of) the person(s) who loved Snape was Lily? Not necesarily as a lover, maybe as a friend. Don't you think that the self-loathing that seems to be eating Snape could be explained like this? Maybe they were almost friends, maybe Snape almost trusted Lily, but the Shrieking Shack incident made him suspect that she had had something to do with it and broke with her. I think that all his nastiness could be explained better if Snape knows but doesn't want to acknowledge that he made a mistake about Lily, and therefore his responsability in James and Lily's wedding, and their death. Silver From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 23 10:27:42 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:27:42 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows was Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet References: <1122055942.1951.85317.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005d01c58f71$295aa550$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134344 Rachel said: page 591-592 "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can possibly imagine." Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we think to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps Regulus???" That is NOT in my book....the line "He cannot kill you if you are already dead" is not in the Canadian Edition (which in the past, has always been the same as the British edition so I presume it is now as well). As others have said, I don't think Regulus is alive or Kreacher would know and wouldn't be able to obey HP. I do think Regulus put Kreacher to - probably his best ever use - by taking him to the cave and forcing the poison potion down his throat. ----- oaksong said: > Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow to > protect Harry? then DG said: "I doubt it - because an Unbreakable Vow *kills*, and that strikes me as being a bit of Dark magic. The UV is something you do to someone you don't trust." Don't forget, Fred and George were trying to get Ron to do one when he was five (F&G about 7). Where would the Weasley children have learned a dark magic thing like this if it IS dark magic. Arthur went Molly-ish on them, not because it was dark magic, but because if the vow was broken, the breaker would die. CathyD DuffyPoo From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 23 10:28:49 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:28:49 -0400 Subject: SOOOOOO many questions!/Necklace in B&B Message-ID: <006101c58f71$50e7c490$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134345 Aggie" "When DD and H relived the memory of LV wanting the job of DADA teacher, (or just checking out the Founder's goodies in DD's office) was that the year before Harry started at Hogwarts? I'm SURE that the twins had said that no-one had kept the DADA job for more than a year since they had been at school yet this was after LV had been defeated at Godric's Hollow! I cannot even remember which book it is in let alone remember the quote - any help? I'm thinking I'm going mad here!!! " Juli said: " Hi, I'm thinking LV came to Hogwarts for a job about 20 or 25 years ago. It was shrotly after leaving Hogwarts and traveling the world. Dumbledore was a bit younger, LV didn't have snake eyes or anything, he was still human. The twins are only 2 years older than Harry, so they started Hogwarts when Harry was 9!, LV had already been part vanquished 8 years ago. The curse on the DADA job was long before their time, even before the Marauders, me thinks." DD said 10 years had elapsed between the Hokey house-elf memory and LV showing up to request the DADA job. It is still a lot of years before Harry arrives at Hogwarts. It has been years since they could keep a DADA teacher. Wonder what happened to the rest of them...we only know from Quirrell onwards... ---------- Jellocat asked "What if THAT'S the horcrux necklace and not the one we all think is at Grimmauld Place? Or could it be another one? At least Harry could afford to buy it..." That necklace was the cursed opal necklace in the package Katie Bell was given. "And in any case, I asked Borgin about the necklace, don't you remember...I saw it there." - Hermione, HBP pg 239 (Can ed) CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 23 10:30:37 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:30:37 -0400 Subject: Was Draco's task surprising?/regarding Lily not apparating with Harry Message-ID: <006501c58f71$91881c20$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134346 snipsnapsnurr said "Was Draco's task surprising? Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry?" It was the one thing I ruled out immediately. Harry Potter is Lord Voldemort's and no one else's. LV knows the first part of the prophecy he is going to kill the brat and no one else. Snape confirmed it "Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord -- we are to leave him.." (Pg 563 Can ed) --------------- Roberta asked: "Unrelated question: in this book, we learn beyond a doubt that it is possible to take someone with you as a sort of passenger when you Disapparate. So why on earth didn't Lily and James Disapparate from Godric's Hollow with Harry That Night??? Lily at least would likely have had time to do it." "You don't mess around with Apparition. There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with it. Prefer brooms -- slower but safer." - Arthur Weasley (GOF pg 63 Can ed). Apart from the idea that there may have been an anti-apparition charm on the house so no one could apparate in (probably IMO), they may neither of them have been able (or wanted) to do it, and especially in this case when safety of transport would have been so important. CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jul 23 10:40:33 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:40:33 EDT Subject: Questions/Ideas Brought On By HBP Message-ID: <157.551b7ac5.301378a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134347 (Here's hoping this goes through this time) There are a few questions/ideas I have. Some of them deal with events in other books, but I've brought attention to them because of how they are linked to HPB One question I have is: What did Dudley hear when he and Harry were attacked by dementors in OotP? I think the part in Chapter three of HBP where Dumbledore says that Vernon and Petunia have mistreated Dudley might be a clue...but I don't know if this will ever be answered. Another thing I've been wondering is: Did Lucius love Narcissa (and visa versa), or was it more of a marriage of convenience? I've always had the imagined that Lucius Malfoy's private life was fashioned entirely for the purpose of having a respectable front. Even the birth of Draco (If he had a son, he would be seen as a family man). I had previously thought the same of Narcissa, but my mind has changed on that since reading HBP. She seems to really love her family, or at least her son. Also, Will Harry do something to help Draco/The Malfoys? Or, will Draco go to the Order for Help? And, finally, in Chapter 28 Snape says, "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" (pg 603) Was he giving Harry advice? I didn't think much of it until I started reading the "Dumbledore planned for Snape to kill him" theories. I honestly thought, at first, that Snape really was evil and killed Dumbledore with malicious intent. Then the above quote seemed more like a taunt. Now though, if it was all planned, could it be that Snape was giving Harry advice on how to battle Voldemort? Well...that's all I've got to say. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 10:49:08 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:49:08 -0000 Subject: Was Draco's task surprising?/regarding Lily not apparating with Harry In-Reply-To: <006501c58f71$91881c20$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134348 > snipsnapsnurr said > > "Was Draco's task surprising? > > Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning > struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry?" > Inge: You're not the only one who thought Draco's task was to kill Harry. For a while during my reading, I thought so, too. Well into the book I changed my mind and thought his taks was instead to kill Slughorn to prevent Slughorn from giving Dumbledore information about the Horcrux-thing, since Voldemort wouldn't want for Dumbledore to know about that. (But Dumbledore had known for years already, hadn't he?) It didn't occur to me that Dumbledore was the actual target until the Lightning Struck Tower scene. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jul 23 10:52:13 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:52:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" Message-ID: <213.5494fc5.30137b5d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134349 In a message dated 7/23/2005 4:42:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, leslie41 at yahoo.com writes: If Snape does turn out to be evil, I'll be disappointed not just because I guess I expected better of him, but because, well...it just seems so *boring*. However I at least hope I won't go stark raving mad if that's what happens in book 7. It's been embarrassing to witness the complete insane fandom meltdown with H/Hr shippers in the past week (esp. with regard to these interviews) I'm not a canon nazi anyway, really. (Otherwise I wouldn't read Snarry fics!) Despite my previous optimism, keeping my fingers crossed about Snape, in the wake of these interviews, seems like a foolish hope, no matter what seems to be in the text. I think I will start resigning myself to the ESE theory, and then if it doesn't turn out that way, it will be a nice surprise. (:^I Leslie41 I really can't imagine a situation with Snape that wouldn't be predictable, but I hope that I'll be proven wrong. I have to admit I was momentarily shocked at Snape really being evil (if he is) because I kind of fell into "Dumbledore says he's good. Dumbledore is the one solid character you can always trust to be right" way of thinking. I'm just not sure what to expect. On the subject of JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" I'd have to agree with Silence that the wording seemed off. My first thought was "As far as what goes?" ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jul 23 10:57:27 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:57:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Draco's task surprising?/regarding Lily not appar... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134350 In a message dated 7/23/2005 6:50:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Elvishooked at hotmail.com writes: > snipsnapsnurr said > > "Was Draco's task surprising? > > Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning > struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry?" > Inge: You're not the only one who thought Draco's task was to kill Harry. For a while during my reading, I thought so, too. Well into the book I changed my mind and thought his taks was instead to kill Slughorn to prevent Slughorn from giving Dumbledore information about the Horcrux-thing, since Voldemort wouldn't want for Dumbledore to know about that. (But Dumbledore had known for years already, hadn't he?) It didn't occur to me that Dumbledore was the actual target until the Lightning Struck Tower scene. Cassie: Actually, that never crossed my mind (That Draco was ordered to kill Harry). I started getting suspicions when Ron was poisoned by that mead meant for Dumbledore. I figured someone was trying to off Dumbledore and put two and two together. My suspicions weren't confirmed until "The Lightning Struck Tower" though. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 23 11:00:35 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:00:35 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134352 - > On the subject of JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" I'd have to agree > with Silence that the wording seemed off. My first thought was "As far as > what goes?" > > ~Cassie~ > > I posted this before and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense(at least to me) The theme that DD is trying to drill into Harry's head in HBP is love. Not romantic, sexual love - but love. Harry's mother saved him by love. Voldemort's mother loved him, but she died when he was born. so, LV never had a mother's love. So, that is why I think who loved Snape - it is simple. His mother. from interview: MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has I cannot imagine that a boy that was as good-loooking as Riddle NEVER was loved in a romantic way. Even Draco gets some. I believe JKR is alluding to a mother's love in her passage. and speaking of Draco, he also has a mother's love - who will do anything, even defy Voldemort, to protect him. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 11:10:08 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723111009.49445.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134353 Max wrote: I certainly agree there could have been more exposition leading up to the big monster rearing his head, but there was *enough* foreshadowing to make it seem believable, imo. And I am most definitely not a shipper, though I've enjoyed reading some of the debates. To me it is not important how many people shipped or didn't ship H/G (though I believe H/G has a large following). What is more important is who did readers feel Harry would actually end up with (regardless of their particular preference). In poll after poll Ginny won, hands down. Lucky guess?. . . I think not. Sounds like there was enough foreshadowing to me. :) My reply: Maybe that's just because there are no other girls in Harry's life besides Hermione and she was clearly going to be with Ron. I saw no forshadowing...LOL ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trekkie at stofanet.dk Sat Jul 23 11:20:04 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:20:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments References: Message-ID: <00a901c58f78$79762300$640aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 134354 ----- Original Message ----- From: "smartone564" > > Secondly, and the important stuff, is... SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON > DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we > have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener > (GoF), and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't > have accurate after-the-fact accounts. In the first three cases, > five deaths, all victims were completely unharmed. In fact, the > Muggle police examined the Riddles and found nothing wrong with > them. Cedric and the Gardener (whose name escapes me) instantly > dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. > Wait, excuse me? All the others were completely unharmed by the > spell, except for the simple fact that they died, instantly. DD, on > the other hand, recieved a massive trauma and was thrown outward, and > then dropped to the ground. This leads me to believe that Snape was > unable to form a proper AK spell, because he honestly did not want > to. I think there's a VERY good reason why we're introduced to Non-verbal spells in this book. If they didn't have some ... larger meaning, there was no use to bring them in at all. So it supports my pet theory that, not, Snape wasn't able to cast a functional AK against Dumbledore, the only person who has ever truly trusted and protected him - so he *said* the words Avada Kedavra, but since he couldn't possibly mean them, he had to couple them with a non-verbal spell, expelliarmus or something similar, to throw Dumbledore up and kill him, weakened as he was. I am sure that AK isn't the *only* curse that is lethal anyway. Snape had to figure out siomething that would look convincing. He NEEDED it to appear like he WAS able to AK Dumbledore, if it came out that he "loved" Dumbledore too much to do so, he would have blown his DE cover completely. So I'm pretty sure there was a non-verbal spell at play here, as well as the unsuccesful AK. ~Trekkie who refuses to believe in ESE!Snape From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jul 23 11:24:59 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:24:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" Message-ID: <1f1.402386c6.3013830b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134355 > On the subject of JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" I'd have to agree > with Silence that the wording seemed off. My first thought was "As far as > what goes?" > > ~Cassie~ > > Muellem: I posted this before and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense(at least to me) The theme that DD is trying to drill into Harry's head in HBP is love. Not romantic, sexual love - but love. Harry's mother saved him by love. Voldemort's mother loved him, but she died when he was born. so, LV never had a mother's love. So, that is why I think who loved Snape - it is simple. His mother. from interview: MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has I cannot imagine that a boy that was as good-loooking as Riddle NEVER was loved in a romantic way. Even Draco gets some. I believe JKR is alluding to a mother's love in her passage. I think you misunderstood my question. I was referring to Snape being culpable, not Snape being loved. Was she referring to all his wrongdoings or to a specific event/s? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 11:27:46 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape calling Harry a liar and a cheat In-Reply-To: <20050721165550.GI30722@gesh.kejia> Message-ID: <20050723112746.19425.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134356 -- Avery Ke wrote: > It's on page 530 of the US edition. In the pages leading up to > Ginny's verbal attack on Hermione, Harry has used > the "Sectumsempra" curse on > Draco, received a detention from Snape, and is going to miss a > Quidditch match. Hermione then lectures Harry ad nauseam about the > wisdom, or lack thereof, in using the mysterious Potions textbook, > and wraps up with: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------> "--got a reputation for Potions brilliance you don't deserve," > said Hermione nastily. I think that's the reason that Snape called Harry a liar and a cheat in the washroom after Draco's injury. Harry is "a cheat" because his new reputation as a potions prodigy depends on using Snape's old marked up textbook and "a liar" because he's hiding the fact. Wonder what Snape thought as he sat in the staff room listening to Horace rave about Lily's son being another potions whiz? Probably "WTF???" Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 11:33:32 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:33:32 -0000 Subject: The Cave, the Bible, the Passing of the Baton... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: Vivian: > When Dumbledore does see Snape his comments to Snape may very be > echoing the Bible's: "Why have you forsaken me" Snape? (JMO) > Did Dumbledore die for Snape's sins? > > If so, Snape has made a crucial error in killing Dumbledore. Martyred > people often become stronger when they die. And their followers often > become braver, and more focused. (Didn't Judas allegedly hang himself > over the guilt?) > > So, will Dumbledore rise from the dead before passing through the > veil? Geoff: These are not really parallels because Jesus' call "Why have you forsaken me is to God the Father. Because he was being crucified to carry the sins of the world, God for that moment turned away, hence the cry. It was nothing to do with Judas, who did indeed commit suicide; that is in the Bible narrative. Regarding the question of martyrdom strengthening people or their work, I think that Dumbledore is (or was) strong enough already. It might be interesting to see how events work out with some of the others - Malfoy for instance who seems very uncertain of where he stands at the moment. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 11:46:26 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0000 Subject: How to dismantle an atomic Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134358 *lol @ subject header* Anyways, there's Still too many messages to wade through to check on this suggestion to see if anyone's come up with it already, so here's my reasoning: Neither can live while the other survives. 'Neither' refering to the bit of soul that's in Harry which belongs to Voldemort, and the soul which belongs to Harry himself? If that were the case, then Neither can truly be in control completely of the body, and live as a single person, while the other survives within that same body. Am I wrong on this? Harry soul + LV's Horcrux soul= No true 'living a single life' for either, right? Harry soul - LV's Horcrux soul= On to the bachelor life for one of them, eh? At this point I think they're still entangled and need to be completely separated, and that triumphant gleam for DD must mean that a bit of it returned to LV, and thus there's hope on the horizon for a complete HP withdrawal and a deposit into the blood bank of LV. I do think that bit of soul has some hold on him, while it's inside of him. If you can make a horcrux in the first place, no matter how intentional or how difficult it could prove to be, then reason states that somehow you can dismantle or destroy it and take it back to the original pieces from which it came. (Why did I suddenly think of an HBP Potions class assignment wherein Harry went the easy route with a bezoar instead of working out the alchemical equation?) Chys From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 11:55:26 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:55:26 -0000 Subject: Canon, please Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134359 Dashing through the posts at breakneck speed, whilst trying to keep with 2 other lists and JKR interviews, I must take time out to question an assumption that has been around since OoP and has never been fully explained to me. Where in canon does it say that Snape was abused as a child? The only memory we have of his family is that of a hook-nosed man yelling at a cowering woman as a child looks on crying. So... what are our options? 1) As the inimitable Kneasy is fond of speculating, the man is Snape and the woman and child are his wife and child. 2) The boy is Snape, and the man is Grandpa Prince who is yelling at his daughter. I am starting to lean towards this one. Now we know Snape's dad was Muggle, and it seems that Harry would assume by Snape's DE past that Snape was a pure-blood. So if the man was dressed in Muggle clothes, Harry would mention it. This does not seem to be the case. 3) If the man is indeed Tobias, and his choice of clothing has gone unmentioned, all we have is that he is yelling and a woman is cowering and a boy is crying. Does this spell out abuse? Not in my book. All it tells us is that the guy was mad, the woman was (ashamed/scared/embarrassed/insert reason one cowers here) and that the boy was crying. He may not have even been yelling at her, but to her. The boy could have been crying because of the yelling. Kids do that. Try yelling around one once. They go to pieces. In short, there are so many unanswered questions that it seems to me that an analysis of abused!Snape is way over what we see in canon. I won't say that it is beyond reason. If JKR wants to use it as foreshadowing, she is well on her way, but by itself, it's not there. If people believe it as a gut feeling, I can certainly buy that. I have gut feelings about many things ;o) So, if anyone is convinced that Snape was abused, and would like to share their reasoning, I'm all ears. I would just be interested to know if I am just not sharing a gut feeling, or if I am missing canon. Ginger, wondering how many horns can a Slughorn slug if a Slughorn can slug horns? From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:01:24 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:01:24 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower + the Dumbeldore making a horcrux NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134360 > Valky (just wanting to mention two things from PS/SS.) > > 1. The Astronomy Tower is the tallest tower of Hogwarts, very very > high up, and the place where the Trio took Norbert to give him to > Charlie's friends. > > 2. I think Jo made it very clear from the very first chapter of the > series, Dumbledore does not make Horcruxes.. Slug says it's the > darkest of dark magic, and in PS/SS Chapter 1. Dumbledore admits, to > Macgonagall, that there are powers he will never have, I wouldn't > hesitate to assume that Dumbledore Horcruxes were ruled out there and > then. Chys: Unless he did it when he'd defeated Grindewald. It's possible he took the even to his advantage, even if it was dark magic, I think that was actually refering to the fact that a death would have to occur. Having done that, it wouldn't be too hard to use a spell to do it- how did he know it was a spell? Told Harry he didn't know, but I dunno. *confused* From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:02:04 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:02:04 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leslie41" wrote: > ~Silence: > > As I think, as a firm Snape-lover, the choice of > > wording is rather depressing. The word culpable is > > what got me there. She's basically saying that Snape > > is worthy of some blame here. Which makes me think > > that I'm one of the 'delusional desperate clingers' > > when it comes to Snape. > > > > It just would be so disappointing to have him be > > really evil after all this time. Snape has been one of > > my favorite fictional characters for years now. To > > have him be a bad guy after all...I don't know if my > > heart can take it! > > I agree Leslie41, the word "culpable" certainly seems to add to Snape being evil. I am convinced that JKR would not answer the last question put to her "Was there anyone else present in Godric's Hollow the night that Harry's parents werew killed?" because the answer would be Snape. I also believe, "Snivelus" was bullied and became a bully. Given the fact that he was outstanding in potions and it appears he was able to create his own torture spells, he put some kind of whammy on all the mauraders and cursed them--probably when it became evident that Lily had reversed her feelings about James and they fell in love. Oho the guilt. Snape may be dealing with guilt that even DD didn't understand since two of the mauraders are dead and it's looking grim for the other two. I keep wondering about Voldemort saying "Lily didn't have to die." It almost sounds like he is making an excuse for his actions, so to whom? My guess is Snape. Was Snape there in Godric Hollow to "help" Lily after her husband and son were killed? A reward from Voldemort for bringing him the prophecy? From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:18:59 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723121859.22737.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134362 Cindy wrote: I agree Leslie41, the word "culpable" certainly seems to add to Snape being evil. I am convinced that JKR would not answer the last question put to her "Was there anyone else present in Godric's Hollow the night that Harry's parents werew killed?" because the answer would be Snape. I also believe, "Snivelus" was bullied and became a bully. Given the fact that he was outstanding in potions and it appears he was able to create his own torture spells, he put some kind of whammy on all the mauraders and cursed them--probably when it became evident that Lily had reversed her feelings about James and they fell in love. Oho the guilt. Snape may be dealing with guilt that even DD didn't understand since two of the mauraders are dead and it's looking grim for the other two. I keep wondering about Voldemort saying "Lily didn't have to die." It almost sounds like he is making an excuse for his actions, so to whom? My guess is Snape. Was Snape there in Godric Hollow to "help" Lily after her husband and son were killed? A reward from Voldemort for bringing him the prophecy? My reply: I guess I just never thought I would be so hurt by the idea that Snape is just evil. That mean people are not ambiguous. That you know there aren't shades of gray in the potter universe. The idea kills me. I didn't expect me, a person who has never defended Snape to take the idea of him being evil so hard. That's why I do think he is good and I really think if he isn't JKR set his death up way to well and she should have made it a bit more of a "shocking" blow like that of Sirius'. Because really it's going to be hard to buy that Dumbledore and Snape didn't plan this out. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:21:58 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Slughorn raving about Lily instead of Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723122158.72034.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134363 --- Florentine Maier wrote: > I find it highly peculiar that Slughorn constantly compares Harry's > potions ability to Lily's. Slughorn must have been teaching Snape > too, > who has been in the same year as Lily. Wouldn't it make more sense > if Harry reminded him of Snape? Slughorn is cultivating Harry (at least until Harry asks him for that memory) and one of the ways to cultivate someone is to flatter them in little ways. Telling Harry that he has his mother's talent is flattering to Harry. Telling Harry little anecdotes about Lily's days in school is a way to bond with this famous kid. Praising Snape - or any other potions prodigy - to Harry is meaningless. And I don't think that Slughorn knows about the Harry/Snape animosity. He doesn't strike me as the kind of person who picks up much outside of his own interests. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:26:12 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:26:12 -0000 Subject: The Cave, the Bible, the Passing of the Baton... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134364 Vivian: > When Dumbledore does see Snape his comments to Snape may very be > echoing the Bible's: "Why have you forsaken me" Snape? (JMO) > Did Dumbledore die for Snape's sins? > > If so, Snape has made a crucial error in killing Dumbledore. Martyred > people often become stronger when they die. And their followers often > become braver, and more focused. (Didn't Judas allegedly hang himself > over the guilt?) > > So, will Dumbledore rise from the dead before passing through the > veil? Geoff responded: These are not really parallels because Jesus' call "Why have you forsaken me is to God the Father. Because he was being crucified to carry the sins of the world, God for that moment turned away, hence the cry. It was nothing to do with Judas, who did indeed commit suicide; that is in the Bible narrative. Regarding the question of martyrdom strengthening people or their work, I think that Dumbledore is (or was) strong enough already. It might be interesting to see how events work out with some of the others - Malfoy for instance who seems very uncertain of where he stands at the moment. vmonte responds: Yes, I know that when Jesus was dying that he was talking to God. But there is something familiar In the manner Dumbledore speaks and looks at Snape. (I do not believe for a minute that Dumbledore would ask Snape to kill him. Dumbledore does not want Snape to go back to being a killer. It just makes no sense to me, what-so-ever). I do think though that Snape is suppose to represent a "Judas type." With Tom Riddle you get the impression that he was never loved, so if he becomes evil you can sort of see where it's coming from. But with Draco and Snape I get the impression that they did have at least one person in their lives that loved them. I may be wrong but I think that Draco's mother loves him. And I get the feeling that Dumbledore loved Snape. And it was Dumbledore's love of Snape that really made him blind to him. So, in a way, what I'm saying is that Snape's betrayal is much worse because he killed someone that would have died for him. I hope I'm clear. Vivian From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 12:46:48 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:46:48 -0000 Subject: Do we believe DD: love is all Harry needs, not the crucios? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134365 2 things stay in my mind about Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort (Destroying Horcruxes aside) DD's insistance that Love really is all Harry needs, and the tendency Harry has to attempt to use the Cruciatus curse. He first attempted it in OotP against Bellatrix, and he tried to use it against Snape twice at the end of HBP. I've seen more than one post discussing Harry's lack of magical bang and how he needs to get some more sophisticated magic under his belt. But I think JKR has deliberately given Harry fairly ordinary wizarding powers and I don't think that that's going to magically change now (excuse the pun). Isn't one of the points of the story that *real* power is not about external things, but about something we are all equally endowed with, the ability to love. DD insists on reinforcing this to Harry, (UK Ed, Ch23 p476)against Harry's scepticism. But I really do think, that if we want to work out what's going to happen, then this is absolutely central. IMO, legilimancy, occlumency, potions etc etc are not what it is about. Bringing in the second thread of Harry's temptation to use the Crucio curse. Snape tells him and shows him, that his attempts here are never going to work. p 562/3 They are only going to work if Harry, in effect, masters the essential skills of being a dark wizard. (Occlumency, nvbl skills and the real desire to torture and inflict pain. Although I admit the first 2 are useful on both sides.) This is Harry's temptation, this is what that connection to Voldemort through his scar is also about. Whether we assume that Harry has a part of Voldemort's soul in himself or not, there is a real connection between them. I think his desire to cause pain and get revenge using the cruciatus curse will be the thing that will nourish the part of Voldemort that is in/connected to Harry. (As Ginny did with Diary!Tom Horcrux in COS) If Harry feeds his dark side, this will only strengthen Voldemort through the scar. Ultimately, Harry has to conquer the evil/dark tendencies within himself in order to conquer Voldemort, and that means not succumbing to revenge and the desire to use the cruciatus curse. Ultimately, it does not involve bang magic ability. Last year I remember posting that I thought the last scene of book 7 would take place in the 'Love" room in the MOM, and that basically, LV would destroy himself because of his inability to cope with love (or something like that) If anything, HBP has strengthened this idea for me. As a last point, I also found the lesson of Ron and the Felix Felicis interesting. Basically, what it said to me was that the human mind is stronger than magic, because it can do exactly what magic can do even without the bangs and whistles. I think the Felix Felicis episode is probably deeply significant in forshadowing Voldemort's defeat. IMO What Harry needs is not more powerful spells, but absolute faith in himself and his ability to love. Saraquel "He had never seen a wizard work things out like this, simply by looking and touching: but Harry had long since learned that bangs and smoke were more often the marks of ineptitude than expertise" From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 11:38:13 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape culpable Message-ID: <20050723113813.17663.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134366 It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping at straws? Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 23 13:01:25 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:01:25 -0000 Subject: The Cave, the Bible, the Passing of the Baton... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > With Tom Riddle you get the impression that he was never loved, so if > he becomes evil you can sort of see where it's coming from. But with > Draco and Snape I get the impression that they did have at least one > person in their lives that loved them. I may be wrong but I think > that Draco's mother loves him. And I get the feeling that Dumbledore > loved Snape. And it was Dumbledore's love of Snape that really made > him blind to him. > At this point, I can't judge just where the "culpability" that Rowling is talking about lies in Snape. We just don't know enough. We don't know who was the person who loved him - it was probably his mother, that's the most obvious choice. But mothers aren't all good - look at Sirius's mother. She loved her children, but only in so far as they followed her into evil. It could be Snape's father who loved him - in the only glimpse we see of him, he's shouting and his wife is crying. But it isn't only cruel, evil fathers who shout - remember how angry Arthur Weasley got when he caught his sons fooling around with a Dark Magic spell. Snape's father could have just as easily been shouting at his wife because she was doing something similar; little Severus would just be crying because of the fighting, not because he knew what was really going on. Or it could be a completely different person who loved him - a grandmother, perhaps. I don't tie Snape's guilt to a particular incident - killing or betraying this or that person. Rowling may have been talking in more general terms. Perhaps she meant that, unlike Riddle, Snape was or had been loved, and so he should have known better than to turn to evil. He was half-Muggle; he knew that Voldemort's anti-Muggle obsession was a lie, he knew it from his own life, and maybe from his own family. He even called himself "Half-Blood Prince"; unlike Riddle, he didn't try to obliterate all trace of his Muggle heritage. So he knew that he was trafficking in lies when he became a Voldemort supporter, but he did it anyway. That I think was his greatest guilt. Wanda From yutu75es at yahoo.es Sat Jul 23 13:02:25 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:02:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape culpable References: <20050723113813.17663.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c701c58f86$c734e7d0$8100a8c0@portatilzas> No: HPFGUIDX 134368 Larry wrote: > It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to > Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and > the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to > mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other > students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping > at straws? > Me (Fridwulfa) Exactly, or she could mean culpable of becoming a DE in the first place, even if he changed his mind later. I think she was talking about Snape's youth's mistakes, his fascination with the Dark Arts and his joining LV. Cheers, Fridwulfa ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Jul 23 13:02:48 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:02:48 -0000 Subject: Vance + Peter (was: Does it matter if Snape is good or bad?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134369 --- "jlnbtr" wrote: > Jennifer wrote: > ...edited... > > > Maybe we'll find out more about why Snape did what he did, or if > > Dumbledore asked him to do it...but it won't matter to Harry. > > ... Harry most certainly will find it impossible to forgive > > --especially in another year (maybe not even another lifetime.) > > Juli: > > But it *does* matter. ...but Snape is an > important character in the whole series, he can tilt the balance > either way, he's got enough knowledge on both sides, good and > bad, to affect the aftercomes of the war. So far "we"'ve believed > that Snape is working for Dumbledore in a very > dangerous position as a spy among the DE and LV, of course you may > think he's always been evil, ... but the fact is that > he's done some good. He's saved Harry's life more than once (PS, > PoA - when he goes after Sirius, ...> > We know Emmeline Vance *was* an Order member (...part of the > advance guard), and Fudge says she's dead, but is she really dead? > As DD told Draco he can make people seem dead, so if Snape tipped > the DEs that he has killed Ms Vance, and he has proof, then she > would be completly safe for who hunts a dead person? > > Juli - a firm believer in Good!Snape Aussie: HBP ch2: Snape says to Bellatrix, ..."The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off.' So Emmeline Vance was betrayed by Snape !!! How expendable are friends to gain LV's confidence? And Snape's dashing to the rescue in POA may have been because Peter was in danger, not Harry. We all wondered what was so fantastic about Peter Pettigrew to be able to join the DE. His abilities were a distant last to the others he hung around Hogwarts with. What if Snape brought Pettigrew into the DE. If Snape got Peter by himself sometime, Peter would have talked using anything for his leverage which Snape used to bring Peter into the DE. Snape was his handler and that is why LV sent Peter to live at Spinner's End with Snape. Remeber:- 1/ Snape doesn't refer to any of the other Maraunders by their animagi name, but he calls Peter "Wormtail". 2/ When he found the Map on Harry, and saw the names including Wormtail, he immediately called Lupin to his office to explain the parchment. If Snape knew Peter was Wormtail all along, then he would have kept an eye on the Weasley's rat every since Percy brought Scabbers to Hogwarts. Good!Snape ??? He held back a lot of information from DD. aussie From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 23 13:13:07 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:13:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPB writing/ Snape Timeline/ poor Lupin, and some other replies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c58f88$450d4930$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134370 Kathy wrote: This all confuses me as well. Dumbledore said that Snape had been spying prior to the fall of Voldemort. Sibyll's prophecy was prior to Harry's birth. How much prior we don't know. We now know that Snape told Voldemort and it probably wasn't a big deal to a 22 year old that I tend to picture much like a nasty Percy. When he found out that it was the Longbottoms and Potters, he panicked. These were people that he new, and at least one of them, he liked. vmonte responds: Who did Snape like? I must have missed that in the books. To me Snape seems to have really hated the Potter parents and by the way he treats Neville in school, he probably hated his parents too. Snape seems to hate anyone that is more popular and talented than he is. Sherry now: Adding to what was said above: it seems that so many in fandom have come to believe that Snape must have liked or loved Lily, that it has come to seem almost like canon. However, there is actually no canon support for that. In fact, in the one scene in which we see Snape and Lily interact, he calls her a dirty name, even though she was trying to defend him from a pack of bullies. (not that I think we've seen all that really happened in that scene of course.) i haven't received my braille copy of the book yet, so just trying to remember the audio, doesn't Snape refer to Lily as a mudblood again, in the fight with Harry at the end, after he murdered Dumbledore? I have serious doubts the Snape liked any of the Potters or Longbottoms. He must have been dancing with joy when he knew that James was finally dead. Sherry From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat Jul 23 13:13:27 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:13:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Who=92s_to_blame,_the_students_or_the_professor,_the_readers_or_the_writer.?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134371 Who's to blame, the students or the professor, the readers or the writer. If a professor teaches a class of 100 students and a few fail his class, it is probably to be expected and definitely the fault of those students. If the failure rate increases, at what point does the rate reflect more on the professor's lack of ability to teach than on the students' ability to learn? What does this have to do with Harry Potter? Actually a lot if you'll bear with me. I think that JKR made a distinctive writing decision when she decided to have Ron, the sidekick, end of with the girl instead of the hero getting her. The problem is that she seemed to stop there as if making the decision was all that mattered. In a love story--- and the shipping part of the HP series is a love story whether you want to admit it or not---you can't just make a decision to put two people together. You must also sell this relationship to your readers. There is no way I can produce actual numbers to support what I'm about to say, but I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that at the end of OotP probably at least 30% of HP readers still supported a H/Hr pairing. Yes, we've all read by now that these people were delusional. Despite all the clues, all the anvils, all the comments by JKR these people still felt that the final pairing would be Harry and Hermione. I guess they just couldn't see the forest for the tress. That left 70% of the readers saying that the series would end in a Ron/ Hermione relation. Now these were the smart people, the ones that could read the clues and noticed the anvils hitting them on the head. Of course, not all these people actually supported R/Hr as a ship, but they had seen the clues and were not in denial. Let's be generous and say that ? of these people actually wanted an R/Hr relationship to take place. That would mean 52% of readers saw and supported an R/Hr relationship. 18% saw it, but weren't happy with it. And, of course there were the delusional 30% that saw H/Hr. You can adjust my numbers anyway you want, they are total guesses on my part. I just ask that you try to be realistic and fair. Also bear in mind that these numbers change nothing; Ron/Hermione is a fact, it is official canon. My numbers, if they are anywhere near correct would indicate that 52% of reader went into HBP supporting the R/HR relationship. The other 48% weren't all delusional; some had accepted fate they just weren't happy with it. By now you have probably guessed my point. Rowlings writes great books, but when it comes to romance she is lacking in ability to convince. A writer must make her readers buy into her beliefs. It is not enough for the writer to decide that she wants this or that to happen in relationships; she must also make her readers believe and want this, also. Rowling has said in interviews that she blames H/Hr shippers for the great dislike heaped upon Ron in many fanfictions. Rowling seems at a loss to understand why all readers didn't see and jump on the Ron/Hermione bandwagon. If a professor has nearly half his students funk his class, it is he that has truly failed, not the students. If a writer after 5 books has not convince her readers that a relationship is meant to be, it is her fault, not the readers. Rowling made the decision to have Ron and Hermione be a couple at the end of the series, but quit there. As she wrote her books, she continually showed Harry and Hermione as more compactable. In my opinion, she even showed Neville and Krum more compactable to Hermione than Ron. Forget clues; forget anvils, those things were hints as if this romance were a mystery story. A relationship isn't based on clues, but rather on actions. I've read the series over and over again and I've seen the clues, especially in GoF, but after the clue there was always another fight. All Ron and Hermione ever did was fight one another. Not the flirty, cute kind of fighting, but rather a bitter, want-to-bite-your- head-off fighting. Sorry but that is no romance hints, or sexual tension to me. Rowling forgot to draw the line. She got carried away with the fighting and making Ron look the fool. She had ample opportunities to show a real affection between Ron and Hermione, but she never choose to use them, rather she went for another fight or a laugh. We as readers did not fail to see the romance and affection between these two people; Rowling forgot to convey it in her writing. She failed to convince half her readers that Ron and Hermione belonged together and now she basically calls us stupid for not seeing something she failed to write. Neil From ewe2 at 4dot0.net Sat Jul 23 12:17:48 2005 From: ewe2 at 4dot0.net (ewe2) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:17:48 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon, please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050723121748.GC9197@4dot0.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134372 On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 11:55:26AM -0000, quigonginger wrote: > Dashing through the posts at breakneck speed, whilst trying to keep > with 2 other lists and JKR interviews, I must take time out to > question an assumption that has been around since OoP and has never > been fully explained to me. > > Where in canon does it say that Snape was abused as a child? > > The only memory we have of his family is that of a hook-nosed man > yelling at a cowering woman as a child looks on crying. This is another candidate for Christie cheating IMHO. It certainly plays with our assumptions, does it not? Particularly when we have so _little_ data on Snape at all, that we grasp hungrily at any scrap and turn it into full-blown narrative. Typically, we hear no more about Harry's thoughts on that scene, or that he's even interested enough to ask such questions. He's going to want to, I hope. > In short, there are so many unanswered questions that it seems to me > that an analysis of abused!Snape is way over what we see in canon. > > I won't say that it is beyond reason. If JKR wants to use it as > foreshadowing, she is well on her way, but by itself, it's not > there. If people believe it as a gut feeling, I can certainly buy > that. I have gut feelings about many things ;o) > > So, if anyone is convinced that Snape was abused, and would like to > share their reasoning, I'm all ears. I would just be interested to > know if I am just not sharing a gut feeling, or if I am missing canon. To slightly detour from abused!Snape, one could ask the same thing about loved!Snape, about which we have less data, even if JKR is throwing ochre fish at us (but they taste nice anyway!). The gut feeling here is Lily, but it could just as well be Mum or Auntie or Gran. It makes Snape "culpable" which is an interesting term to use: he knows better. So even if he _was_ abused, he has known love and knows better on _both_ counts. Looks worse for the Good!Snape camp. > Ginger, wondering how many horns can a Slughorn slug if a Slughorn > can slug horns? Ooooh you were waiting to do that here, I bet :) ewe2, polishing off the last of 4 sushi rolls for dins. Get not between the penguin and his sushi. -- "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jul 23 13:15:54 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:15:54 -0000 Subject: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview In-Reply-To: <66.5b6a318c.3013370a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml > > Theories are shot down left and right in this one. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Alot of interesting insight though. I was reading jkrowling.com last night and read her MacBeth's Witches parallel there. But it's interesting because it explains Trelawney's drinking probelm in HBP---guilt. Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jul 23 13:21:35 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:21:35 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <213.5494fc5.30137b5d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/23/2005 4:42:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > leslie41 at y... writes: > > > If Snape does turn out to be evil, I'll be disappointed not just > because I guess I expected better of him, but because, well...it > just seems so *boring*. However I at least hope I won't go stark > raving mad if that's what happens in book 7. It's been embarrassing > to witness the complete insane fandom meltdown with H/Hr shippers in > the past week (esp. with regard to these interviews) > > I'm not a canon nazi anyway, really. (Otherwise I wouldn't read > Snarry fics!) > > Despite my previous optimism, keeping my fingers crossed about > Snape, in the wake of these interviews, seems like a foolish hope, > no matter what seems to be in the text. I think I will start > resigning myself to the ESE theory, and then if it doesn't turn out > that way, it will be a nice surprise. > > (:^I > > Leslie41 > > > I really can't imagine a situation with Snape that wouldn't be predictable, > but I hope that I'll be proven wrong. I have to admit I was momentarily > shocked at Snape really being evil (if he is) because I kind of fell into > "Dumbledore says he's good. Dumbledore is the one solid character you can always > trust to be right" way of thinking. I'm just not sure what to expect. > > On the subject of JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" I'd have to agree > with Silence that the wording seemed off. My first thought was "As far as > what goes?" > > ~Cassie~ If his mother loved him, then yes, Snape has been loved---which is something that Voldemort has never felt. (Rowling's really going Oedipal on us isn't she?) If it's romantic love, we don't know the background. However, ever since I read GoF, I've been curious by the Bertha Jorkin Penseive: Bertha is a student at Hogwarts and is explaining why someone jinxed her. The reason: Bertha saw "him" kissing Florence behind the green houses. I've always wondered who was Florence and exactly who was she kissing? Whoever it was was nasty enough to jinx Bertha. Hmmmmm...... Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jul 23 13:44:07 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:44:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Who=92s_to_blame,_the_students_or_the_professor,_the_readers_or_the_writer.?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brwneil" wrote: >You must also sell this relationship to your readers. > Admittedly, she did a better job of "selling" and developing this relationship than Tolkien did of the Arwen/Aragorn relationship in the books (not the movie) > There is no way I can produce actual numbers to support what I'm > about to say, but I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that at > the end of OotP probably at least 30% of HP readers still supported a > H/Hr pairing. Yes, we've all read by now that these people were > delusional. Despite all the clues, all the anvils, all the comments > by JKR these people still felt that the final pairing would be Harry > and Hermione. I guess they just couldn't see the forest for the > tress. > I wouldn't call them "delusional", per se. I think that the H-Hr shippers deeply identified with either Harry and/or Hermione. In doing so they took that position of "Okay, who in the book would be 'my' perfect mate?" That's why Ron and Ginny suffer so much in the Shipping Reports. Because these people can't imagine themselves with Ron or Ginny, so Harry or Hermione can't see anything in them either. > That left 70% of the readers saying that the series would end in a > Ron/ Hermione relation. Now these were the smart people, the ones > that could read the clues and noticed the anvils hitting them on the > head. Of course, not all these people actually supported R/Hr as a > ship, but they had seen the clues and were not in denial. Let's be > generous and say that ? of these people actually wanted an R/Hr > relationship to take place. That would mean 52% of readers saw and > supported an R/Hr relationship. 18% saw it, but weren't happy with > it. And, of course there were the delusional 30% that saw H/Hr. > Smart, no. I think that these are the people who read the books with an open mind. In other words, they weren't so prejudiced by their own ideas, they were able to see those "anvil-sized hints". This is really a common human characteristic, by the way. I've seen people "hate" a particular food, not because they tasted it once and didn't like it, but due to their preconceived ideas that they wouldn't like it anyway or they wouldn't like it because it's a too green or has too many vegetables or something like that or worse, they can't imagine themselves eating anything like that. What's even funnier is that Rowling actually pokes fun at the Shippers within the pages of HBP: Molly's and Ginny's attitude towards Fleur. Neither can see what Bill sees in Fleur. Neither thinks Fleur has the character/personality/qualities to be good enough for Bill. Neither wants to accept Fleur and Bill's relationship as a true love-relationship. Do Molly and Ginny sound familiar? I'm not a shipper, nor do I have an interest in the Shipping Forecasts. imo, Rowling had to include teen romance in order to make her characters more like real teens. The real plot is Good v. Evil (Harry v. Voldemort) So should the H-HR Shippers feel bad or stupid? Of course not! Frankly, I would love Harry to kill Voldemort and then die himself in book 7. But if she chooses him to live to a ripe old age taking care of his and Ginny's 7 children, so be it. It's her books. It's her story---I'm along for the ride. Milz (who doesn't like Ships of any sort) From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 13:47:16 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723134716.42914.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134376 --- comomegusta6 wrote: > Reading this fragment made me wonder this: what if > (one of) the > person(s) who loved Snape was Lily? Not necesarily > as a lover, maybe > as a friend. Don't you think that the self-loathing > that seems to be > eating Snape could be explained like this? Maybe > they were almost > friends, maybe Snape almost trusted Lily, but the > Shrieking Shack > incident made him suspect that she had had something > to do with it and > broke with her. I think that all his nastiness could > be explained > better if Snape knows but doesn't want to > acknowledge that he made a > mistake about Lily, and therefore his responsability > in James and > Lily's wedding, and their death. > > I have always entertained the idea that snape DID probably care about someone else despite him being the 'in it for yourself' type of personality. and I always envisioned it was Lilly that he had feelings for. I am the kinda snape/lilly shipper that beleives it was an unrequited love where lilly didn't return snapes affections for what ever reason and this added to snapes bitterness and increasing his hatred when lilly went for james and not him laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Sat Jul 23 13:57:20 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:57:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's ability to trust his instincts, and ESE!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507230957823.SM00752@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 134377 > davenclaw: > [snip] > > Now, what about Harry trusting the HBP? If Snape is actually > Good, then we see that Harry even has correct instincts about > Snape, when he doesn't know that it's Snape. If Snape is > ESE, then we see that Harry was wrong to "befriend" the HBP > in his mind, but he was very right about Snape himself. Dilemma! > [snip] > > But when I read HBP, I can easily see Snape being truly ESE > on the basis that it fits in with the theme of Harry finally > being able to trust his instincts - but I can also see it as > a huge step in his progression, which would actually > culminate with his ability to trust a Good!Snape. > > - davenclaw Vivamus: WONDERFUL post. As much as I enjoy nit-picking the story logic to squeeze the "truth" out of it, it is nice to be reminded that JKR really is the story goddess, and the way the story will go (not just for major plot points, but for ships, potential FLINTs, and anything else) is the way JKR WANTS it to go. It is, after all, her story, and she has done an excellent job of leaving us hanging with two valid explanations of the events so far. Personally, I think a loyal Snape fits what we have seen better than ESE!Snape, but you are absolutely right. What JKR has given us could certainly go either way -- and that is about as far as logic can take us. The maturation of Harry, the response of Buckbeak, or any one of half a dozen other things all could tip the balance away from where I think it is, and who is to say what JKR thinks is the most important factor in that equation? Thank you, davenclaw. Vivamus From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 23 13:59:07 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:59:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c58f8e$b2069130$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134378 Harry/Ginny shipping is not about Ginny. It hasn't ever been really about Ginny. How can it be when Ginny's true nature is such a recent revelation? It's about one thing. She's a redhead he rescued from the big bad monster. phoenixgod2000, who wishes Luna could have been a redhead because that would actually have been interesting. Sherry now: Though i love the Harry/Ginny ship, I think there is something in what you say about the symmetry of it. However, for my own part, I never linked Ginny with Lily, till I started on this list and saw the comparisons. Possibly because of being blind and not paying much attention to descriptions of people's looks? Obviously, I know Harry has messy black hair and green eyes, and all the Weasleys have red hair, but it just doesn't mean anything much to me. i liked Ginny Weasley from book one, where she chases after the Hogwarts Express. In that scene, she wasn't a timid little mouse, she was excited and cute. Even the rescue from the big bad monster isn't part of why I like Ginny and Harry. i admit, I like it because i want Harry to have a family, a big noisy loving family. That's what he would get in the Weasleys. That was his heart's desire. Now, as I've gotten to know Ginny's character, i've come to like her very much. i saw her character building in all the books, except for POA, and I can't really remember her in that book. i was too wrapped up in guessing that Sirius Black wasn't actually out to murder Harry! Anyway, So I admit I have both symmetry and my liking of the character herself to cause me to like the idea of Ginny/Harry. sherry From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 13:53:23 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:53:23 -0000 Subject: Whos to blame, the students or the professor, the readers or the writer. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134379 BrwNeil at a.. wrote: > > Rowling forgot to draw the line. She got carried away with the > fighting and making Ron look the fool. She had ample opportunities > to show a real affection between Ron and Hermione, but she never > choose to use them, rather she went for another fight or a laugh. > > We as readers did not fail to see the romance and affection between > these two people; Rowling forgot to convey it in her writing. She > failed to convince half her readers that Ron and Hermione belonged > together and now she basically calls us stupid for not seeing > something she failed to write. Yeah, I can certainly see that. I saw Ron and Hermoine getting together just because it was obvious Ron was jealous. Plus, well, Rowling basically said they were going to be together. However I'm really not concerned with the relationships between the kids. Teenage romance is not what draws me to the series, and I found all the romantic intrigues in Book 6 distracting and very sloppily done. But "Spinner's End," in contrast, is just about as masterful a chapter as Rowling's ever written. My guess is that chapter's been in her head for years, and though R/Hr has also been in her head for years, she hasn't fleshed it out completely until recently. Truthfully, I think there's hordes of people out there (myself being one of them) that think Hermoine is actually a better match for Snape, and I'd venture to guess that there's more Snape/Hermoine fics than fics with her or Harry. Not that this will ever or should ever happen, for a variety of reasons, but I don't think either Harry or Ron is a good choice either. Ron is not smart enough for her. It's just that simple. The way Rowling has written her, Hermione is not going to remain consistently engaged by someone who is so clearly her intellectual inferior. Truthfully, she needs someone who's going to put her in her place a bit, otherwise she's going to evolve into a most dreadful priss. Harry doesn't seem likely to do that, and in a romantic relationship, eventually being with a "dreadful priss" is going to wear on his nerves. I'm not a Snape/Hermoine shipper or anything, but I understand the impulse. Leslie41 From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 14:25:04 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:25:04 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Who=92s_to_blame,_the_students_or_the_professor,_the_readers_or_the_writer.?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134380 This was a great post, but I want to come back in defence of JKR here. Your post was very long so I'll do my best to sensibly. Neil wrote: > > I think that JKR made a distinctive writing decision when she decided to have Ron, the sidekick, end of with the girl instead of the hero > getting her. The problem is that she seemed to stop there as if > making the decision was all that mattered. In a love story--- and > the shipping part of the HP series is a love story whether you >want > to admit it or not---you can't just make a decision to put two people > together. You must also sell this relationship to your readers. I think she did sell the relationship, and you mention all the anvil size hints. But, I also think that JKR is very concernd to make her characters real. I for one feel that I could bump into a Ron or a Hermione any day on the street. I don't feel that so much about Harry. Of all the major characters, I feel he the least real to me. He is the hero, he is the one who is going to defeat LV (well maybe!) When people read novels they often read for escapism, and escapism is nowhere less like life, than in romantic fiction, where idealised love and idealised lovers abound. But IMO JKR is much more concerned to present what life might really be like for mixed up and confused teenagers who end up with all sorts of people who they don't match with. The relationship between Hary and Hermione is much less fraught with tension, therefore in contrast, it could seem more ideal, more romantic, more "desirable". But to me, it never showed any spark of passion on either side, it always seemed, as I assume JKR intended, platonic. > It > is not enough for the writer to decide that she wants this or that to > happen in relationships; she must also make her readers believe and > want this, also. If a reader wants to see a certain type of example of a relationship because that's what they enjoy reading about, they will see it. JKR didn't do the set thing and have Harry get the girl. IMO she was faced with a dilemma, should she oversell R/H to overcome the expectations that the hero always gets the girl, or should she stick to her style of trying to be real and therefore not hang out signs with the washing. I think she told it like it is, and it worked for me. I never doubted, from very early on that it was a R/H ship. > Rowling forgot to draw the line. She got carried away with the > fighting and making Ron look the fool. She had ample opportunities > to show a real affection between Ron and Hermione, but she never > choose to use them, rather she went for another fight or a laugh. > > We as readers did not fail to see the romance and affection between > these two people; Rowling forgot to convey it in her writing. She > failed to convince half her readers that Ron and Hermione belonged > together and now she basically calls us stupid for not seeing > something she failed to write. No, I think that both Ron and Hermione, kept in character. There was no way, Ron was going to be openly affectionate with Hermione in previous books. It would have been out of character. His total geekiness around Hermione when she was upset, was to me one of the biggest clues to how much he felt for her. Both Ron and Hermione strike me as being extremely sensitive people who disguise their acute vulnerability under a mask of agression. Ron not only had to mask his vulnerability but also his total inexperience. I feel that Hermione and Ron's relationship would probably turn out to be very much like Molly and Arthur's (although I was greatly relieved by Ron's comment somewhere to the effect of - stop bossing me about Hermione, it was only after that that I had hopes that their relationship might just work out!) Saraquel Who is not a shipper, but surprised herself once before by writing a shipping post. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 14:25:34 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:25:34 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134381 delwynmarch wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: > we did NOT NEED to learn what was > in that chapter!! Why do we need > to know ANY of the things we > learn in that chapter? Actually I thought JKR was brilliant the way she did it, I don't know of another writer who could have pulled it off. For 6 books we've seen Snape do extremely nasty things and for 6 books we've heard the hero of the books tell us over and over that Snape is Evil, and in chapter 2 we even see Snape making unbreakable vows and conspiring with Death Eaters, and yet JKR manipulates her readers so skillfully that it's still a huge shock when we discover in the end that Harry was absolutely correct and the reason he always acted so unpleasantly is because Snape is indeed evil. Talk about hiding in plain sight! Brilliant! By the way, now we know why Harry did so poorly in Snape's Occlumency lessons in book 5 and why they weakened his defenses rather than strengthen them. Eggplant From amccracken109 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 14:22:55 2005 From: amccracken109 at yahoo.com (Amy McCracken) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:22:55 -0000 Subject: How to dismantle an atomic Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134382 Chys Lattes wrote: > Harry soul + LV's Horcrux soul= No true 'living a single life' for > either, right? > > Harry soul - LV's Horcrux soul= On to the bachelor life for one of > them, eh? > If you can make a horcrux in the first place, no matter how > intentional or how difficult it could prove to be, then reason states > that somehow you can dismantle or destroy it and take it back to the > original pieces from which it came. Okay -- I think you are thinking along the same lines as I am. After finishing the book, and considering what JKR has said about the finality of Book 7, I found myself wondering if Harry was not himself a horcrux. Since all of the other objects have some kind of significance, or even a distinctive look to them, wouldn't it make sense that Harry is one as well? I foresee Harry, Ron, and Hermione finding and destroying the other horcruxes in Book 7, only to realize that Harry is the final piece. JKR has always said that Book 7 would be the final book, with nothing coming after. She has also said that beloved characters would die throughout the series. I wonder if Harry will feel the need to destroy himself in Book 7, that Hermione will be the only one who can find a way to separate him from LV's soul, but will be unsuccessful. I have always thought that the only way to destroy LV owuld be to destroy Harry as well. IF Harry's ability to love is what separates him from LV, then wouldn't sacrificing himself for the good of the world be the ultimate act of love, just as his mother sacrificed herself for him? Amy From s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 23 15:18:39 2005 From: s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk (rehtse) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:18:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various theories and a question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134383 Hickengruendler said She also already admitted, that she changed some things while writing the books, because it was more fun. .. The Remus/Tonks ship you mentioned is a good example for this. I really can imagine she wrote this in to please some fans and/or because after reading it in fandom, she liked the idea of it herself. EstherS concurs After OotP I read an interview where JK said Lupin was a favourite character so I imagine she would want to make him happy. I have always had a soft spot for Lupin and he seems to be the voice of reason. I hope he has a big role in 7 gw73 said DD appeared after death in a portrait in his office . However, SB has not appeared, that we know of, in a talking portrait. Perhaps he is not dead, having passed the curtain while still alive? EstherS says I think that when Harry finally pays a visit to 12 GP he will find a portrait of Sirius. Rosmerta said With Slughorn stressing over and over again what a Potions genius Lily was, methinks many of those hints in Harry's book were originally from her. Want to bet Lily and Severus were Potions partners? EstherS Says Im not sure whether Lily helped Snape or vice versa or they just worked it out together. Snape is known to be an excellent Potions master, it is mentioned several times in PoA and again in HBP by Lupin. Also remember (correct me if Im wrong) that Snape wrote all his recipes on the board (not relying on the text-book) and while Snape was Potions master Hermiones potions came out perfectly. If Snape wrote all these notes in his book surely Lily would have done the same. James could quite easily having taken a peek at Lilys text book. Ersatz Harry says (1) I found it perplexing that Snape's old Potions text would make it in the bin of old ones available for class use. Perhaps Snape liked to keep it close at hand when he was the Potions professor, but something about its getting into Harry's hands feels a bit contrived. I can't imagine that Snape would inadvertently leave it lying around. EstherS agrees but adds Snape, on DD's orders, must have left the book behind on purpose to ensure that Harry became an accomplished potion-maker, to learn some useful spells and because Harry needed to earn the Felix Felicitas. What confirms this for me is that after the SectumSempra curse Snape remarks that Harry has been using Dark Magic but all he does is give him detention. Use of Dark magic that had almost killed another student would surely be an excellent opportunity to get Harry expelled yet Snape only reports the matter to MacGonagall. Snorky wrote: Could Voldemort be Snape's Daddy? Could he have abandoned poor Ms. Prince, whose parents charmed the nearest man who wouldn't have a clue into marrying her, to punish her and to disguise an illegitimate child during an era when illegitimacy was considered a family disgrace? Could Snape now be seeking revenge on Voldemort for his miserable childhood? EstherS says Suddenly I have of 'The Boys from Brazil' with witchcraft: LV trying to create a second self by recreating the events of his own life. Of course the question is why. LV wants to be immortal so he isnt preparing a successor. CathyD They did not get to take their OWLs and so are not 'qualified wizards' in any way. It's obvious that a wizard/witch is qualified after the OWLs as Hagrid is not qualified (expelled in 3rd year) and yet Fred and George are not being stopped from doing magic having taken then OWLs but not NEWTs EstherS says I think that in the wizarding world as in real life there is a big difference between being unqualified and under-age. Hagrid was not allowed to use magic because he had been accused of a serious crime and had his wand broken. Since CoS he seems to have been using his umbrella quite openly and nobody has remarked on it. Not all wizards use an equal amount of magic in their lives for example it was stated in previous books that not all wizards chose to travel by Apparating. Like in the real world where you can drink and vote once you are of age but require a license to drive, in the wizarding world you are free to use magic once you are of age and only need special qualifications in order to get a job or for special skills like Apparating. Another little note here: DD says the MoM cannot tell who is doing the magic in a certain place and relies on parents to control their children. Although it isnt mentioned MoM dont seem to be able to detect all elf magic because the didnt detect Dobby Apparating just the flying pudding. Possibly they couldnt detect that Dobby was with Harry so assumed it must have been Harry doing the magic. However they could detect DD and so assumed that he would be in charge of Harry and ensuring that Harry did no magic. And a question: 'You understand him, I'm sure Harry?' said Dumbledore quietly (HBP UK HB p191 The House of Gaunt) so Harry realises they are speaking Parseltongue but does DD understand? If not who translated for him? If yes then how, when, why and what is his connection with Slytherin? EstherS A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From blulioness at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 23 14:16:09 2005 From: blulioness at yahoo.co.uk (blulioness) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:16:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <887587d405072213273ada68a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134384 > auruor wrote: > > I have a theory, sorry if others have already said this, > > Dumbledore isn't dead it was Slughorn in the lightning tower. Not > > just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used > > several times by Slughorn. This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was Slughorn blu From kkersey at swbell.net Sat Jul 23 14:34:55 2005 From: kkersey at swbell.net (kkersey_austin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:34:55 -0000 Subject: Seven horcruxes and no more In-Reply-To: <20050723070821.69417.qmail@web32103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134385 CathyD wrote: >> What I'd like to know is why DD never commented that he may have >> made more since his re-birthing, shortly after which he would have >> found out from Malfoy about the diary being destroyed. What's >> prevented LV from 'topping them up to six' again? Morgan replied: > I think the key here is the importance of the number seven.... [much snippage of excellent support] Elisabet now: I think, though, that the point that CathyD is making is that Voldemort *already knows* that one of his Horcruxes (the Diary) has been destroyed. So unless he replaces that one, he will *not* have the important number, seven. Why would he not replace it? Is it more important to have *created* exactly six Horcruxes (to his soul divided by seven), or to actually have six Horcruxes (and therefore seven pieces of soul) *in existance*? Elisabet From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 13:58:59 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:58:59 -0000 Subject: Was Draco's task surprising?/regarding Lily not apparating with Harry In-Reply-To: <006501c58f71$91881c20$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134386 snipsnapsnurr said: > "Was Draco's task surprising? Am I the only one who thought right up until the scene in the lightning struck tower that Draco's task was to kill Harry?" Cathy Drolet wrote: > It was the one thing I ruled out immediately. Harry Potter is Lord Voldemort's and no one else's. LV knows the first part of the prophecy he is going to kill the brat and no one else. Snape confirmed it "Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord -- we are to leave him.." (Pg 563 Can ed) Yeah. I didn't think he was going to be successful, though. And I didn't think that Voldemort intended for him to to be successful. It is hinted that Draco's task is really just a roundabout way for Voldemort to get him killed as a way to punish Lucius. Draco is described as being excited about the task and looking forward to it, though. I figured that Draco thought he could handle Harry and would enjoy doing it (he doesn't know anything about the prophecy other than what is in The Daily Prophet). I would expect that the prospect of killing Dumbledore would just fill him with dread. Obviously I was wrong, but i think it was a reasonable conclusion to come to before the lightning struck tower scene. And I think Dumbledore thought the same thing. snipsnapsnurr From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 15:20:10 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:20:10 -0000 Subject: for whom are the books named?, Re: Possible message in Evil!Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134387 Ljd wrote: > I believe the plot device is intended to demonstrate Harry's > leadership and superior powers of perceptions to the older, more > intelligent and experienced people around him. Proven right about > Snape, his direction should be trusted and followed by everyone > (including himself). I believe JKR's moral is something along the > lines of being true to yourself and trusting your instincts. > Perhaps a story of self empowerment? This is not appealing to me > but I believe that's where she'll wind up. > > So, folks, if it looks evil and acts evil then it must be evil! > Nothing more to see here. Move along! anthyroserain: (I know that you don't like this idea either, so bear in mind, I'm arguing rhetorically here.) The problem I've always have with this idea is not that it supports trusting yourself, but that it supports trusting your first impressions of people, and trusting that they are always what they appear to be. This seems a very childish (not in a good way) and simplistic moral, and one with very dangerous ramifications. Perhaps, to paraphrase Dumbledore, old age does underestimate youth, but at the same time, there is a reason old people are usually wiser: they have the benefit of experience. And experience tells you that you cannot easily judge someone's motives. And JKR has thankfully not gone the easy route morally: Dumbledore tells Harry that he was fated to become the Chosen One not because he's "special", but because of the circumstances, and of course, he says that our decisions are what truly define us. Dumbledore was wise enough to go against appearances and trust Snape, and he was wise enough to forgive. Del wrote: > But DD is the wise mentor of the hero, and usually the mentor is > right, *especially* when everything seems to point to the fact > that he is wrong. That's one of the major points of the mentor: to > teach the hero to look beyond appearances. And Harry so far has > almost NEVER looked beyond the appearance of Snape. To add to what Del is saying: Harry may be the hero and have his name in the title, but a smart coming-of-age story doesn't suggest that the hero never learned anything through all the books. Dumbledore is fallible and sometimes wrong, but this was the greatest lesson he ever taught, one that Harry would be foolish to reject, and one I think (or hope) JKR will back up in the end. -anthyroserain who thinks Snape's momma loved him From s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 23 15:18:40 2005 From: s_rehtse at yahoo.co.uk (rehtse) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:18:40 +0200 Subject: Horcruxes and The Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134388 Vivamus said: > Candidates for the seven HCs as I see it would be (although there *might* only be six): 1. Riddle's diary (confirmed and destroyed) 2. Slytherin's ring (confirmed and destroyed) 3. Hufflepuff's cup 4. Ravenclaw's locket (confirmed, and probably the one that was in GP, stolen by Regulus) 5. Gryffindor's _________ (sword? hat? something new? tomb? bones? < EstherS says: Although DD is quite specific about the other Horcruxes there is a vagueness about the Gryffindor artefact. If I take a wild theory and run with I would say that LV killed James to create the split and Lily as the Horcrux. That is why when Lily protected Harry he also got the piece of LVs soul. Then when LV tried to AK him and the curse backfired Harry also got some of LVs soul including the ability to speak Parcel tongue. Brothergib said: > I have wondered if the 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes, is the fact that Voldemort had taken part of his soul back from Harry when he reincarnated. Perhaps this release Harry from the need to die to defeat Voldemort. < EstherS says: I think DD knew this meant Harry lost Lilys love protection (LV could now touch him) but he had also been relieved of the piece of LVs soul. Harry still has the abilities given him through LV trying to AK him: he is still a Parcelmouth. To me the liquid in the cave seems to be some kind of drinkable memory, everytime DD takes a drinks he sees more of the memory. The memory sounds like someone been tortured by the Cruiciatus curse to force them into killing someone until the torturer loses patience and decides to do the deed themselves with the torturee begging to be killed instead. Wanda said: > ...what if Dumbledore became a Horcrux in the course of Book 6.... What if the Horcrux wasn't the locket at the bottom of the chalice, but the potion itself? If the only way of removing the potion to reach the locket was to drink it, then the drinker would end up taking into himself Voldemort's soul-fragment... the only way of destroying the soul-fragment would be for the carrier to die, and who would agree to his own death? < EstherS says: This was a totally new idea and IMHO an inspiration. If it is true I believe DD knew this beforehand and was worried that the potion might cause him to tell Harry the truth which is why he made Harry swear to carry out the mission whatever. It also gives Snape an ironclad reason for killing him on the spot. Logically the memory would be of the person murdered in order to create the Horcrux. EstherS A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 15:24:05 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:24:05 -0000 Subject: The Cave, the Bible, the Passing of the Baton... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134389 Wanda wrote: At this point, I can't judge just where the "culpability" that Rowling is talking about lies in Snape. We just don't know enough. We don't know who was the person who loved him - it was probably his mother, that's the most obvious choice. But mothers aren't all good - look at Sirius's mother. She loved her children, but only in so far as they followed her into evil. It could be Snape's father who loved him - in the only glimpse we see of him, he's shouting and his wife is crying. But it isn't only cruel, evil fathers who shout - remember how angry Arthur Weasley got when he caught his sons fooling around with a Dark Magic spell. Snape's father could have just as easily been shouting at his wife because she was doing something similar; little Severus would just be crying because of the fighting, not because he knew what was really going on. Or it could be a completely different person who loved him - a grandmother, perhaps. I don't tie Snape's guilt to a particular incident - killing or betraying this or that person. Rowling may have been talking in more general terms. Perhaps she meant that, unlike Riddle, Snape was or had been loved, and so he should have known better than to turn to evil. He was half-Muggle; he knew that Voldemort's anti-Muggle obsession was a lie, he knew it from his own life, and maybe from his own family. He even called himself "Half-Blood Prince"; unlike Riddle, he didn't try to obliterate all trace of his Muggle heritage. So he knew that he was trafficking in lies when he became a Voldemort supporter, but he did it anyway. That I think was his greatest guilt. vmonte: I don't agree with you. I don't think that Snape was loved by his mother. In fact it seems obvious that his lack of hygiene (Snape's Worst Memory--greasy hair, grey underwear) is very reflective of someone who comes from neglect. I think that Dumbledore loved Snape like a son. Snape just couldn't let go of all of his old hates. He also probably thought that Dumbledore was favoring Harry over him. (Yes, I do think that Snape's emotional thought process is very infantile. In fact Dumbledore probably had a talk with Snape about protecting Harry at all costs in case he were to die (the conversation heard by Hagrid?). I don't think that Dumbledore asked Snape to murder him. DD could have just as easily killed himself, no? Vivian From G3_Princess at MailCity.com Sat Jul 23 15:26:20 2005 From: G3_Princess at MailCity.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:26:20 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leslie41" wrote: > JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even > than Voldemort, who never has. Personally I take this to mean Snape is more culpable because he must have bitterly disappointed the hopes of whoever loved him and because he had cause to know better. Any way you cut it SS is guilty of terrible crimes. The question is is he still evil or trying to redeem himself? From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sat Jul 23 15:39:29 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:39:29 -0400 Subject: Viilians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67a3804e1502b94a1deb62cdb07521f9@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134391 horridporrid03 wrote: > Greyback - Probably JKR's most chilling villain yet.? HE EATS > CHILDREN!!!? ON PURPOSE!!? Tell me he's not an obvious stand-in for > a pedophile.? And he's the one who turned Lupin.? The entire group of death eaters that surround Dumbledore at his death are chilling. Their names point this out--Alecto, in particular. It seems unfair that Dumbledore has to die while being surrounded and taunted by them. A cruel death. Unfair that kind DD has to die in such a way. Alecto, isn't just a pretty name. I sing classical music, and not too long ago I memorized and sang a song by Purcell where the whole second verse is about her. In Greek mythology, Alecto is a deity who has snakes for hair, eyes that drip blood, and who carries whips to use on her victims. She may have be the worst of her sisters (the three furies). These three would unceasingly persecute their victims in the name of justice until their victims went mad. (Now what kind of mother names her child after Alecto? ) Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) (`'?.?(`'?.?-:?:-?.?' ?)?.?'?) -:?:-??..-:?:-* ~ Barbara~ *-:?:-..??-:?:- (?.?'?(?.?'?-:?:-`'?.?)`'?.?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Jul 23 15:45:50 2005 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:45:50 -0500 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! References: <1122108242.1318.55776.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000e01c58f9d$a0c06d10$c3a0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 134392 smartone564 wrote: > Secondly, and the important stuff, is... SNAPE'S AK ATTACK ON > DUMBLEDORE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL. For evidence, I recall the deaths we > have seen from AKs: Cedric, the three Riddles, the Riddle's gardener > (GoF), All of these, with the exception of Cedric, were killed by Voldemort. Who, it's assumed, is the most experienced at AKing people. It's been argued before that he "assisted" Wormtail in killing Cedric as well. > and DD. I exclude the Potters and others because we don't > have accurate after-the-fact accounts. Ah, but we do know that something left the house in ruins. Though it's assumed to be the result of the backfiring AK. An AK out of control, so to speak. > dropped dead. DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. > Wait, excuse me? It's already been said that it could've been the result of a limp body simply falling, so I'll skip that. What we do know is that Snape definitely performed this AK on his own, with Voldemort no where around. I think it's also safe to say that Snape's AK is a little out of practice. Now take, for example, Sectumsempra. Probably what we saw used on James in a controlled fashion in the Pensieve scene in OOP. It got Snape's point across, but James's life clearly wasn't in danger from a cut on his face. When Harry used it on Draco it was totally out of control and could've killed him. The difference in these two being, most likely, experience with the curse and knowing what to expect from it, which comes from experience. The difference in the results of the AKs could've been just that simple. Voldemort is clearly more experienced and completely in control whereas Snape's AK, due to lack of "practice" was a lot wilder. Richelle From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sat Jul 23 15:58:44 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:58:44 -0000 Subject: Snape culpable In-Reply-To: <00c701c58f86$c734e7d0$8100a8c0@portatilzas> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134393 > Larry wrote: > > > It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to > > Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and > > the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to > > mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other > > students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping > > at straws? > > >(Fridwulfa) > Exactly, or she could mean culpable of becoming a DE in the first place, > even if he changed his mind later. I think she was talking about Snape's > youth's mistakes, his fascination with the Dark Arts and his joining LV. That's how I choose to interpret it as well. If Snape was loved, for instance by his mother. He should have understood the importance for a child to have a good parent to rely on. Something neither Harry nor Neville have had - partly because of Snape himself. Therefore Snape morally comitted a crime when telling Voldemort. If his regret really was sincere, and he actually has been working for the order all this time, trying to make up for this mistake... He can still be somebody to count on. When Dumbledore had died, Harry promised himself that nobody else would have to sacrifice themselves for him, and be killed by Voldemort. Maybe Snape will attempt to do this - not feeling so good about himself anyway. And hopefully Harry can keep his promise to himself and stop Snape from getting killed. Well, there is always hope. Isn't there? Marika From unix4evr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 16:04:51 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:04:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death / Slughorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134394 > > > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > Slughorn > > blu Nope. He would have returned to his normal shape as Slughorn after being killed. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 16:19:27 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:19:27 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134395 I don't want to argue here about pros and cons of the various theories put forth about why Snape killed Dumbledore. That's already being done very articulately all over the list. This post takes for granted that Snape's betrayal of Dumbledore was real, that when JKR calls him "culpable," she is referring to that betrayal (see part three of the interview on mugglenet). So, if you don't agree, fine, but let's not argue that one just now. If you do agree, or you are undecided, you are asking yourself, as we all are, what does this mean for the conclusion of the series? The first thing we need to accept is that the Snape we thought we knew doesn't exist. The sour and even mean but noble at heart Potions master with the venomous wit -- we all loved this guy. But it turns out he was a creation of collective imagination, seduced of course by JKR and all the reassurances she put in Dumbledore's mouth. The real Snape is not that person. He is somebody else. Who, exactly, we don't know; we just know he is capable of great evil, and with less excuse for it than Voldemort. Many people think that this must make him boring, compared to the Snape of our imagination. But just because someone is capable of great evil doesn't mean they are completely evil for all time, that they are beyond redemption. It just means they stand in great need of it. (this is my problem with the ESE designation -- nobody is truly ESE, even those who have done the foulest deeds) JKR has spoken of a redemptive pattern in connection with Snape. And I think (#132930) it fits the psychological and spiritual logic she has set up for Snape to be redeemed. For Snape to attain redemption from where he stands at the end of HBP would be for him to make a huge journey. Someone who could make such a journey would actually be a very interesting person. I guess what all this is trying to say is that it is too early to give up on Snape, or to conclude that this is going to turn out to be a black and white, good vs. evil story. But we do need to let go of the Snape we thought we knew. Inkling From kjones at telus.net Sat Jul 23 16:26:43 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:26:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPB writing/ Snape Timeline/ poor Lupin, and some other replies In-Reply-To: <002a01c58f88$450d4930$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <002a01c58f88$450d4930$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <42E26FC3.6090206@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134396 Sherry Gomes wrote: > Sherry now: > > Adding to what was said above: it seems that so many in fandom have come to > believe that Snape must have liked or loved Lily, that it has come to seem > almost like canon. However, there is actually no canon support for that. > In fact, in the one scene in which we see Snape and Lily interact, he calls > her a dirty name, even though she was trying to defend him from a pack of > bullies. (not that I think we've seen all that really happened in that > scene of course.) i haven't received my braille copy of the book yet, so > just trying to remember the audio, doesn't Snape refer to Lily as a mudblood > again, in the fight with Harry at the end, after he murdered Dumbledore? I > have serious doubts the Snape liked any of the Potters or Longbottoms. He > must have been dancing with joy when he knew that James was finally dead. > Sherry Kathy writes: I feel, that from the potions book and the hints from the interview, that Snape had some kind of friendly relationship with Lily. He called her a Mudblood in 5'th year under ugly circumstances, and there would have been time to make up for that. Snape may have built some kind of vision around that and could not deal with the fact that she chose his arch enemy James. I agree that Snape hated James, Sirius, and Peter with a passion, but someone asked that Lily not be killed. That is canon. I would say that you are right about both James and Sirus, though, He wouldn't have wasted a minute regretting their deaths. There is no doubt in my mind that every time Snape laid eyes on Harry and Neville he was faced with his own guilt. A better person might have tried to redeem himself by being nice to them. Snape is not a better person. He is petty, bitter, cruel, and has never really been anything else. The fate of the Potters and the Longbottoms was completely his fault. I think he reacted much like Draco. Draco could not face the reality of his actions, and could not do it. Snape did not have that choice. His actions caused the deaths through someone elses' actions and he either did not stop it, or was afraid to stop it. I think that, over 15 years, while he has not learned a great deal about himself or other people, he did have a reliance on Dumbledore. It was important that Dumbledore trusted him and saw something in him. He did save Harry's life or attempt to do so on several occasions. It is canon that he saved Dumbledore's life. It remains to be seen in book 7 if Dumbledore's trust in him will be sufficient to "choose what is right instead of what is easy." I think that Dumbledore's trust can be explained in several ways. He may not trust Snape to do good, necessarily. I think it is more of a case that he understands Snape, his limitations, and his bitterness. He may be counting on the fact, that if Harry is the final Horcrux, and he manages to down Voldemort, Snape is the only person he can really count on to kill Harry. JKR has never said that Harry will survive book 7, and has discouraged that idea since the first book. KJ From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 16:35:34 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:35:34 -0000 Subject: HPB writing/ Snape Timeline/ poor Lupin, and some other replies In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20050722212709.03b95630@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134397 >heather: >5. The Gryffindor rubies spilled all over the floor, glistening like blood. Hogwarts itself is bleeding. Love that. > Christina: > I loved this part, just because there's so many different ways you can look at the symbolism of it. When I first read it, I saw it as the granting of hundreds of symbolic "house points" to all of the Gryffindors fighting up in the tower, and a last tribute to the greatest Gryffindor of them all...Dumbledore *sniffle* > > I like the way JKR sneaks in references to Gryffindor in times of trouble...she did it at the end of OotP also, in Dumbledore's office...(US OotP 840): "The sun had risen fully now. Dumbledore's office was bathed in it. The glass case in which the sword of Godric Gryffindor resided gleamed white and opaque..." Such lovely writing. **Marcela now: I'm going to go further into symbology here. Isn't it interesting that in GoF things looked very *black* and ominous and then in OoPT Sirius *Black* died, thus corresponding to the Nigredo stage in Alchemy, with Harry getting completely 'burnt into charcoal black' with all the events he had to go through. Toward the end, he's done with his 'physical' attachment stage. Then, as you pointed out Christina, toward the end of OoTP we are in *Albus* Dumbledore's office, Gryffindor's sword is was gleaming *white*, and in HBP we got a lot of Dumbledore, with a Harry that is more matured and in control of his emotions, more resigned and accepting of his fate, more 'in tune' with Albus (he was Dumbledore's man through and through), and... Albus died. This corresponds to the Albedo stage in Alchemy, which is the 'consciousness' stage. Interestingly, Harry's inner voice didn't sound like Hermione's anymore. Harry finally became his own man at the end of HBP, he made up his mind that he would not return to Hogwarts, etc. Lastly, in Alchemy the final stage to reach the Philosopher's stone is the Rubedo. As Heather pointed out above, we got that image of Gryffindor's rubies spilled on the floor (and I would add the blood of Bill Weasley too, a family associated with Red since the very beginning). So, I'd say that in the next book we'll find a Harry that's already above his physical and conscious planes, he'll get in contact with his spiritual self. Not for nothing he'll be hunting for Voldemort's souls. He'll be a true Seeker finally, not just playing Quidditch. Who'll die then? Someone associated with Red = Rubeus Hagrid? A Weasley? Marcela From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 16:52:38 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:52:38 EDT Subject: Of course Snape is culpable! (Was Re: Snape culpable) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134398 Larry wrote: > It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to > Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and > the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to > mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other > students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping > at straws? > Fridwulfa wrote: Exactly, or she could mean culpable of becoming a DE in the first place, even if he changed his mind later. I think she was talking about Snape's youth's mistakes, his fascination with the Dark Arts and his joining LV. Cheers, Fridwulfa Julie says: Look at is this way. Is there anyone here that thinks Snape *isn't* culpable of something--of a good many things in fact? Hands? Anyone? Didn't think so. OF COURSE Snape is culpable! (So is Dumbledore, Harry, and everyone else in the books. We are all culpable for our mistakes and bad actions). Snape is culpable for his actions against the Mauraders as a student, (as they are culpable for their actions against him), for joinng the DEs and performing whatever actions he did as such, for telling Voldy the prophecy, and certainly for verbally abusing Neville and Harry (whatever his motives there), etc. That's never been in doubt. The whole focus with Snape has *always* been about his past, and his culpability. Can he redeem himself for that dark past? Does he want to redeem himself? Has he in fact been atoning for his past throughout the books (as Dumbledore certainly seems to believe), by aiding the Order in whatever way Dumbledore sees fit--from protecting Harry, to spying on Voldemort, to perhaps delivering a deliberate death blow to Dumbledore? Very possibly, and in my opinion, quite probably. I think JKR used the word "culpable" in a very broad manner in her interview, simply to draw a distinction between Snape ahd Voldemort. Voldemort can't necessarily be held culpable for his actions (though he should pay for them because he was never loved (moreover, he's a sociopath who really doesn't understand or care about right or wrong). Snape--like ALL of us who are not sociopathic and do know what it means to love and hurt--can and should be held culpable for his actions, past and present. Whether Snape turns out to be good or ESE, I don't think that's ever been in doubt, to Dumbledore or to us. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 16:54:43 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:54:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" Message-ID: <1d9.40e81bb8.3013d053@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134399 In a message dated 7/23/2005 9:28:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, G3_Princess at MailCity.com writes: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leslie41" wrote: > JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even > than Voldemort, who never has. Personally I take this to mean Snape is more culpable because he must have bitterly disappointed the hopes of whoever loved him and because he had cause to know better. Any way you cut it SS is guilty of terrible crimes. The question is is he still evil or trying to redeem himself? Yes, definitely. Snape has been a Death Eater. Whether he hoodwinked Dumbledore or truly recanted, he has been guilty of terrible things (not to mention those curses). And I doubt he learned racist beliefs at his mother's knee, considering she married a Muggle. And of course, there's always the birthday wishes, which say something. She gave them to Draco and he finally showed some spine, anyway. Amber who is reserving judgement for Book 7, which is pretty much all we can do [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:11:15 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:11:15 -0000 Subject: The textbook & spells, Gryffindor's and the Weasley's, and something more... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134400 vmonte: One of my posts dissapeared so I'm reposting this. I think that Hermione was right about the handwriting in the textbook. I think it belonged to a girl--Snape's mom. Snape never invented any of these spells, they are his mother's, and he just added his new moniker, HBP, to the book--that's all. There are children that have book smarts like Hermione, Lupin and Snape; and then there are children who have something extra: Dumbledore, Harry, Ginny, Lily, Fred & George, and most likely Sirius. These people that are able to take what they learn and do something more with it. Teachers love students like these. I like how Slughorn commented how Hermione's response to a question was quoted word-for-word from the textbook. Hermione is actually capable of more, and that is why the hat sorted her into Gryffindor. Hermione also chose her friends well. Ron and Harry help Hermione to "think-outside-the-box" so to speak. Want to make a bet that Snape's mother put him down and called him talentless? Polyjuice: JKR loves to use polyjuice. I kept wondering why Goyle and (that other kid) kept polyjuicing themselves into girls in HBP. Was JKR trying to tell us that it is possible for boys to change into girls and vice versa? Ginny is a strong witch (Harry's equal) and she also played the position of "Seeker" when Harry could not. Will Ginny take Harry's role in the war an attempt to save him? I wonder if Ginny will polyjuice herself into Harry to lead the DEs away from the real Harry? I wonder? I hope Ron will finally show his strategist skills (just wishing). I also think that Harry will find out that the Weasley's and Dumbledore are direct descendants of Godric Gryffindor. It took me a while to figure this out. He will read it in the geneology book at Sirius's house. This will really impress Harry because unlike Voldemort, who threw in everyone's face his blood-line, DD and the Weasley's do not. So, in a sense Ron is Dumbledore---via his blood-line. HAHA Vivian From ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk Sat Jul 23 15:59:00 2005 From: ddb3 at canterbury.ac.uk (dewey_demon) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:59:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134401 auruor wrote: > > > just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > > > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used > > > several times by Slughorn. Blulioness replied: > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > Slughorn Dewey Demon now chips in: A more mundane explanation, which I'm sorry to say has no backup from canon, follows. When you spend time around people with distinctive catchphrases and modes of expression, you tend to pick them up yourself to a certain extent. Work colleagues, fellow Big Brother housemates and the like. It's possible that Slughorns' 'oho' somehow lodged itself in Dumbledore's mind and he uses it here. I've certainly found myself saying something and then thinking 'that's not my word, that's Rachel's word' or whatever. David/Dewey Demon From slmuth at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 16:46:52 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:46:52 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what Hagrid overheard Snape and > Dumbledore arguing about. What did Snape want to stop doing? Janeway: I've been wondering the same thing. I posted on this in mssg #133584. In addition to your list of things we know that Snape was "doing" at the time, I also had: 5. He is (or has been) providing treatment for DD after his mission (s) to destroy horcrux(es). 6. He may be participating in some other way in a plan of DD's that we don't know about(such as helping to find the Horcruxes, or requiring SS to kill DD). 7. He is acting as head of Slytherin. Snipsnapsnurr: > 2. He is teaching DADA. Why would he want to stop doing that? That > has been his ambition throughout the whole series. Janeway: This is actually my guess as to what he didn't want to do anymore. Here is the snip from my earlier post as to why: "My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach DADA. DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to one year. Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he is beginning to realize that things are not going well for him. (He has taken the unbreakable vow, now he's realizing he isn't able to control Malfoy as he thought he would... he may have to reveal his true loyalties and kill DD himself). So now he's trying to back out, and DD won't let him." I think the question of whether or not Snape was *knowingly* involved in finding the horcruxes is a crucial one, because if he was, he is now in a position to tell LV. Personally, I think that DD did *not* tell him. This is because: a) DD was clearly keeping this a deep secret, and did not tell McGonagall or the ministry or the Order, and told Harry to tell no one except R/Hr; and b) When Snape tells Bella about DD's hand, he attributes it to "slow reflexes," which is also what DD tells Slughorn at Budleigh Babberton and the DEs on the astronomy tower. I think this is DD's cover story, which he also told to Snape when he returned badly injured from an unnamed mission (ie., finding and destroying the ring horcrux). When DD tells Harry what happened, he actually says he used "prodigious skill" to destroy the horcrux. Nothing about "slow reflexes". (Yes, Snape could be lying to Bella about DD's injury, and if so I think it's the best evidence for Good!Snape that I've been able to find. But I think it more likely that Snape was not on DD's "need to know" list for Horcruxes.) JMO, Janeway From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jul 23 17:27:08 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:27:08 -0700 Subject: The House of Gaunt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1247341800.20050723102708@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134403 Here's some musings while reading the _House of Gaunt_ chapter: -- In the whole scene Morphin speaks only Parseltongue. Why? Is that all he *can* speak? -- How are the Gaunts able to talk to each other in Parseltongue? In _CoS_ when Harry tries to speak it to anything other than a snake, he can't do it. -- If the Gaunts are all Parselmouths, why does Diary!Riddle tell Harry that the two of them are the only Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since Slytherin himself? Were the Gaunts homeschooled? Maybe after Slytherin's departure all his decendants refused to go to Hogwarts on principle? -- Merope seems an interesting figure: An odd mixture of oppressed desperation and sleezy shrewdness. -- I'm envisioning her as a cross between Cinderella and Fanny Squeers (from Dickens' _Nicholas Nickleby_). -- Does anyone have any insight into the name "Merope"? There seem to be several of them in the Classical Mythology Phonebook. The most likely seems to be the Merope who is one of the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades, but she seems not to have married a Muggle or given birth to a psychotic manaic. -- Dave From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 17:39:59 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:39:59 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: SNIP "My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach DADA. DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to one year. Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he is beginning to realize that things are not going well for him." SNIP Inge: So it could very well be that Dumbledore has kept Snape from teaching DADA because of the jinx on the job? Dumbledore can't afford to lose Snape as a teacher - but why is it that he then gives Severus the DADA- job in Harry's 6th year anyway - knowing it may just mean the end of Snape teaching at Hogwarts? From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 17:43:05 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:43:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > > Max wrote: > > In poll after poll Ginny won,hands down. Lucky guess?. . . I think > > not. Sounds like there was enough foreshadowing to me. :) > Phoenixgod responded: > Ginny wins those polls because people like the symmetry of H/G not > the character of Ginny or 'foreshadowing'. People like the idea of > Harry rescuing his LI from the big bad monster. They like that Harry > (who looks just like his dad) has a gf that is just like his mom > (red head and all). It can't be about the actual character of Ginny > because the people who shipped Ginny with Harry when she was a shy, > tongue tied girl are still shipping her with Harry now that she is a > spunky power ranger. Max responds: Touch? PG! Of course, this is total supposition on your part. You have no more means of proving that people vote Ginny because of symmetry than I do with people voting Ginny for foreshadowing. Imo however, I find it highly unlikely that upwards of 60% of readers voting in shipping polls vote Ginny simply because they *like the idea*. If H/G has no basis in canon as you suggest, she would not be getting all these votes. Now I could list all the "clues" I see as foreshadowing a H/G relationship from Books 1-5 and you can shoot them down one by one, but that's already been done to death by the shippers. What it clearly comes down to is a difference of opinion as to what qualifies as a proper amount of foreshadowing. While I agree that the H/G relationship did suffer somewhat from not enough exposition and build up, the problem was not large enough, in my eyes, to render the relationship unbelievable or poor written. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 17:51:34 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:51:34 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: SNIP "My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach DADA. DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to one year. Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he is beginning to realize that things are not going well for him." SNIP Inge: So it could very well be that Dumbledore has kept Snape from teaching DADA because of the jinx on the job? Dumbledore can't afford to lose Snape as a teacher - but why is it that he then gives Severus the DADA- job in Harry's 6th year anyway - knowing it may just mean the end of Snape teaching at Hogwarts? From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 18:17:22 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:17:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134407 > Max responds: > > Touch? PG! Of course, this is total supposition on your part. You have > no more means of proving that people vote Ginny because of symmetry > than I do with people voting Ginny for foreshadowing. Imo however, I > find it highly unlikely that upwards of 60% of readers voting in > shipping polls vote Ginny simply because they *like the idea*. If H/G > has no basis in canon as you suggest, she would not be getting all > these votes. still, seems logical to me that would be where a lot of the votes come from. Especially coming from the casual readers who see her red hair and go of course it'll be Harry and Ginny, 'cause its 'cute'. I'm sure there are other reasons, but if Ginny weren't a redhead I would bet money that her fan base would be a lot smaller. > Now I could list all the "clues" I see as foreshadowing a H/G > relationship from Books 1-5 and you can shoot them down one by one, > but that's already been done to death by the shippers. What it clearly > comes down to is a difference of opinion as to what qualifies as a > proper amount of foreshadowing. true. also don't forget their total lack of chemistry together :) > While I agree that the H/G relationship did suffer somewhat from not > enough exposition and build up, the problem was not large enough, in > my eyes, to render the relationship unbelievable or poor written. Eh, I'm fightin' an uphill battle anyway. JKR apparently thinks that Ginny is the bestested girl in the world for Harry so I'm giving up on anyone more interesting. I'll console myself by working on my HP fic where Harry is dating Fleur and Ginny is a stalker--it great for all those negative feelings I have ;) Maybe I just hate redheads because I never liked Mary Jane Watson much either. Always been more of a Gwen Stacy fan. phoenixgod2000, very near his buring day and looking like a sad phoenix indeed. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 23 18:21:11 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:21:11 -0000 Subject: The House of Gaunt/The orphanage In-Reply-To: <1247341800.20050723102708@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > -- Does anyone have any insight into the name "Merope"? There seem to > be several of them in the Classical Mythology Phonebook. The most > likely seems to be the Merope who is one of the Seven Sisters of > the Pleiades, but she seems not to have married a Muggle or given > birth to a psychotic manaic. > I read that that Merope of the Pleiades did marry a mortal, however, and that's why her star is the faintest in the constellation. The other names are interesting, too: Morfin I suspect to be a pun on "morphing", though we had any powers as a metamorph, we didn't see them. "Morfin" is also, I believe, the German spelling for "morphine". And Marvolo is just very magical-sounding; I liked Mrs. Cole's guess that maybe Merope had come from a circus! Their last name is certainly an indication of their physical circumstances, but maybe there's an overtone there of Shakespeare's John of Gaunt - not so much the actual character, but the sense that this is an old, old family, with deep roots in England. And what is the deal with their eyes looking in different directions? Is that just an element of ugliness, like saying they're cross-eyed, or does it indicate some sort of power? A contrast, anyway, with Lily's eyes. I got some strong Dickensian vibes in the whole Merope story, too. Her stumbling to the orphanage in a snow-storm to give birth to a son and die is straight out of Oliver Twist. The orphanage, though, was not nearly as bad as Oliver's workhouse. It's interesting, but the interview with Mrs. Cole seemed like a rare pro-Muggle interlude in the story. The orphanage isn't nice by any means, but I get the feeling that Harry wouldn't have found it so bad, if he'd had to live there. There was a sense that somebody there cared about children, even if the place was threadbare and poor. Mrs. Cole wasn't a monster - she was actually quite a smart woman, and she was gracious enough to offer Dumbledore a drink, which was more than the Dursleys have ever done. Altogether, it changed my mind for the worse about Tom Riddle. I'd previously imagined him living in a filthy, abusive hellhole, and thought that that might have warped him. Now I don't think that that is an excuse - he wasn't a good boy who was twisted by abuse and suffering, and couldn't help himself. He had no excuse for being cruel and evil - it was something he chose for himself. Wanda From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 18:23:15 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:23:15 -0000 Subject: Snape/Dumbledore argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > > SNIP > "My theory on what Snape doesn't want to do anymore is... teach DADA. > DD and Snape both know the position is cursed/limited to one year. > Snape initially agreed to take the risk (why?), but he is beginning > to realize that things are not going well for him." > SNIP > > Inge: > So it could very well be that Dumbledore has kept Snape from teaching > DADA because of the jinx on the job? Dumbledore can't afford to lose > Snape as a teacher - but why is it that he then gives Severus the DADA- > job in Harry's 6th year anyway - knowing it may just mean the end of > Snape teaching at Hogwarts? A couple of ideas come to mind. DD knows that any teacher given the DADA job has to leave Hogwart's after their stint (although DD just speculates that Voldemort cursed the job). Additionally, if one of the Good!Snape theories is true...Snape knew DD was already dying from retrieving the Gaunt ring horcrux (a dead hand, people!) when he made the Unbreakable Vow...what better way to keep a handle on Draco's killing abilities than having Snape finally teach DADA? It also gave him the opportunity to drill it into Harry how to better control his mind regarding spells. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 23 18:25:34 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:25:34 -0000 Subject: 'Merope' wasRe: The House of Gaunt In-Reply-To: <1247341800.20050723102708@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook > > -- Does anyone have any insight into the name "Merope"? There seem to > be several of them in the Classical Mythology Phonebook. The most > likely seems to be the Merope who is one of the Seven Sisters of > the Pleiades, but she seems not to have married a Muggle or given > birth to a psychotic manaic. She did however marry a mortal. She was the only one of the seven sisters who did not marry a God and she was ashamed and repented of it and hid herself in the sky (ie the star named after her does not shine brightly like the other seven sisters). I've just googled the name and found the following which I found very interesting: The astronomical influences of the Pleiades are supposed to be to make their natives wanton, ambitious, turbulent, optimistic and peaceful; to give many journeys and voyages, success in agriculture and through active intelligence; and to cause blindness, disgrace and a violent death. Their influence is distinctly evil. Karen From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 18:37:08 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:37:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the UV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134411 Green Minicat writes: >What if LV sent Narcissa to Snape that night and made >her get Snape to agree to the UV? An interesting thought, but I don't quite buy it. Lord Thingy may have sent Sissy as a test for Snape (with Bella as a witness). Would SS substitute his judgement for this Master's by taking the mission LV had assigned to Draco away from him? There's also the question of Sissy's relationship with Snape (no not that kind of relationship). It makes sense that a student's mother and his head of house would have spoken (or at least corresponded), but beyond that, why would she go specifically to him? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:34:13 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:34:13 -0000 Subject: Blades and snakes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134412 One thing i haven't seen mentioned at all is the fact that Voldemort's grandfather and uncle both carry a wand AND a knife. Goderic Griffindor owned a sword (which Harry used), but other than that the only weapon we've seen other wizards use is a wand. It could just show that they are backwards, untrained, primitive wizards. Or it might mean nothing at all, but in both cases you have blades and snakes together. I don't have the books handy, but in CoS, did Harry harm the basilisk with spells? Has Nagini ever been harmed by spells? I can't think of any dragon slaying legend where the dragon was killed by a guy with a wand. Maybe wands just don't work on serpents for some reason. Maybe Goderic Griffindor was a dragon slayer. snipsnapsnurr From zwarte_kat_1 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:52:04 2005 From: zwarte_kat_1 at yahoo.com (zwarte_kat_1) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:52:04 -0000 Subject: Destroying horcruxes by Avada Kedavra? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134413 Does anyone have any thoughts on how to destroy an horcrux? It looks like it's only the part of the soul that is targeted, which may cause some damage to the object in which it was concealed, but does not destroy it: In the case of the ring, there seems to have been only a crack down the middle of the stone and the diary was damaged through the insertion of the Basilisk's fang, but not destroyed. How does one destroy a piece of someone's soul? The part of Voldemort's soul inside the diary has been destroyed by a deadly poison. The same poison nearly killed Harry. So, in this case, what would have been deadly to a human was also effective in destroying part of a soul. I'm wondering if spells that can kill a person, could also destroy an horcrux? What would have happened if Harry had cast Avada Kedavra at the diary? Would that curse also have destroyed the horcrux? zwarte_kat_1 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 18:59:32 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:59:32 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"?/Occlumency and Pensieves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134414 Eggplant wrote: For 6 books we've seen Snape do extremely nasty things and for 6 books we've heard the hero of the books tell us over and over that Snape is Evil, and in chapter 2 we even see Snape making unbreakable vows and conspiring with Death Eaters, and yet JKR manipulates her readers so skillfully that it's still a huge shock when we discover in the end that Harry was absolutely correct and the reason he always acted so unpleasantly is because Snape is indeed evil. Talk about hiding in plain sight! > Brilliant! > > By the way, now we know why Harry did so poorly in Snape's Occlumency lessons in book 5 and why they weakened his defenses rather than strengthen them. Carol responds: According to JKR's combined Leaky/Mugglenet interview, it was Harry's own emotions that made it difficult if not impossible for him to learn Occlumency, in contrast to Draco (and presumably Snape), who can separate emotions from logic and other strictly mental processes. I know that this scene, and the death of Dumbledore, seems like a triumph for the ESE!Snape theorists, but possibly you're underestimating JKR's gifts as a storyteller. I really doubt that she'd be that obvious, and we have more to learn about both Snape and Dumbledore. (I, for one, would love to see the other two memories that Snape removed from his head along with the scene of James and Sirius tormenting Snape, which JKR implies in the same interview has not been tampered with. At least we now know that a Pensieve does provide an accurate and objective record of a memory. That is its value, as I've always believed.) I, for one, am still inclined to doubt that Harry's wisdom is equal to Dumbledore's, nor do I think that Dumbledore gave us his real reason for trusting Snape. I very much doubt that Dumbledore would be reduced to begging Snape not to kill him, or that his Legilimency has been completely blocked by Snape's Occlumency, however superb Snape's skills may be in that department. Dumbledore was weakened by the poison and Snape (apparently *only* Snape) could have saved him, but Snape had no opportunity. He had to carry out the Unbreakable Vow. I wish I knew what was really going on between Snape and Dumbledore, but I certainly don't think we have all the answers just yet, nor do I believe that Snape told the truth to Bellatrix. You are certainly right about hiding things in plain sight (note the absence of a point-of-view character in this scene), but I think that's exactly what she was doing in chapter 2. On my first reading, I thought exactly what you (and Harry) think, that Snape cold-bloodedly murdered Dumbledore, only with the opposite emotional reaction. Now I think the truth has not yet been revealed. We know that there's a hugely important Snape/Harry confrontation scene coming in Book 7. That, probably, is when we'll learn the full truth about Snape. We certainly don't know it yet, appearances to the contrary. Granted, Harry is the hero of the books, but he is still in the process of learning how to become the Chosen One. He doesn't know everything yet. Witness his huge mistake in rushing to rescue Sirius in OoP. He still needs to learn to balance intellect and emotion, and I think that, somehow, Snape is the key to that lesson. Carol P.S. For the record (and nothing to do with Eggplant's post), memories are not *stored in* a pensieve, nor will we find either Snape's or Dumbledore's memories there, but maybe we'll see more bottled memories, assuming that Harry returns to Hogwarts and that he can get out of the Pensieve without help. Maybe you apparate out? P.P.S. For the Snape theorists (I know what the Snapehaters will say, thanks): Does anyone think that Snape can still communicate with the Order members using his Patronus and that they would know by the mere fact that he could still use such powerful anti-Dark magic (per JKR's website) that he really was still on their side? P.P.P.S. Since I'm trying to squeeze everything into one post, the funniest line for me was Luna's about gum disease. Too bad I can't remember it! Okay. All finished now. Carol, who thinks that we need to plunge into the depths of HBP to find its truths. We won't find them on the surface or in the open. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 19:04:11 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:04:11 -0000 Subject: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml > > > > Theories are shot down left and right in this one. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Alot of interesting insight though. I was reading jkrowling.com last > night and read her MacBeth's Witches parallel there. But it's > interesting because it explains Trelawney's drinking probelm in > HBP---guilt. > > Milz Lorel responds: Where did you read that Trelawney's alcoholism is caused by guilt? And how do Macbeth's witches reflect this? From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 19:19:49 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:19:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > Phoenixgod wrote: > I'll console myself by working on my HP > fic where Harry is dating Fleur and Ginny is a stalker--it great for > all those negative feelings I have ;) Max responds: LOL! Hey, I'll read it. I don't have any great attachment to H/G. :) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 19:40:28 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:40:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily, Dumbledore, and AK Message-ID: <7d.6dc1286a.3013f72c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134417 Julie writes: >Possibility 2: >Lily did have to perform some ancient magic for the rebound to >occur. This protecting magic/charm may have been "sealed" by her >choosing to die by AK. The rebound on the caster (LV) was because >of the magic, not just by her choice. May or may not establish a >horcrux. (Horcrux being the scar because no one else killed by AK >had a scar...it was surviving the AK and being marked by a curse.) Ray postulates: Forgive me for hijacking the thread, Julie, but this line of thought must be set down on paper while it still makes sense (to me anyway). 1. Lily performed some sort of silent spell (or perhaps she cast it earlier) that is triggereg by AK. If AK is cast upon the target (Lily), some sort of protective field is set up around a designated loved one (Harry). 2. Voldy tried to AK the target, and the spell rebounded, nearly killing him instead of Harry, and giving Harry a mark representative of the sacrifice. 3. Dumbledore cast the same spell upon himself, the loved one again being Harry (DD's love for Harry is that of a Grandfather for a Grandchild, and very strong). AK is cast upon Dumby, and now the field is again set up around Harry. 4. We don't know how long this protective field last, but if any of the DE's present had cast DE against Harry, they would have died instantly. DD gave his life to ensure Harry would survive the raid on Hogwarts. What do others think? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Sat Jul 23 19:56:14 2005 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:56:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the Parselmouth? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134418 In the first visit that Dumbledore & Harry take into the Pensieve, they go to the Gaunt's house as a member of the Ministry is arriving. The Ministry member does not understand what is being said but Dumbledore helps Harry figure out that Parseltongue is being used. With that in mind, how does Dumbledore understand the conversations that ensue within the house? He seems to have an extraordinary knowledge of the events inside and the conversations they are having to be guessing what is being said... that said, Dumbledore must be a Parselmouth. Thoughts? Genma From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jul 23 20:01:08 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:01:08 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorelei3dg" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > > http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml > > > > > > Theories are shot down left and right in this one. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Alot of interesting insight though. I was reading jkrowling.com last > > night and read her MacBeth's Witches parallel there. But it's > > interesting because it explains Trelawney's drinking probelm in > > HBP---guilt. > > > > Milz > > > Lorel responds: > Where did you read that Trelawney's alcoholism is caused by guilt? And > how do Macbeth's witches reflect this? Ooops, I never meant to imply that Rowling chalks off Trelawney's alcoholism to the prophecy, but rather it explains why she has taken to the bottle. Trelawney stashing empty sherry bottles and stumbling around Hogwarts drunk threw me for a loop when I read it. In MacBeth, MacBeth meets the 3 witches one night and they tell a prophecy that he will be king of Scotland. The only problem is for him to become king, MacB had to murder people--which he does. So the question has been if MacB never met the witches or if the witches never told MacB of the prophecy, would he still have gone through with the murders? The MacB Witches are criticized too: Arguments are made that the MacB witches just gave MacB the info and what he did with it was his own doing so the witches weren't culpable. Likewise arguments are made that the MacB witches could foresee the future, so that they knew by giving him that info he would murder, in other words, they were as culpable as MacB. Rowling explains the MacB witch comparison breifly in the interview and on her website: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=84 "If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made. Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought, while Neville remains the tantalising 'might-have-been'. Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences." It's speculation on my part, but this prophecy-as-catalyst can be the reason why Trelawney has developed a fondness for sherry (and I hope she's drinking a nice fino or manzanilla sherry): she feels responsible/guilty that her prophecy has caused and is causing misery. Milz From xirene101 at cs.com Sat Jul 23 17:51:15 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:51:15 -0400 Subject: The House of Gaunt Message-ID: <76F3BD39.5D92A466.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134420 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >-- Does anyone have any insight into the name quot;Meropequot;?nbsp; There seem to be several of them in the Classical Mythology Phonebook. The most likely seems to be the Merope who is one of the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades, but she seems not to have married a Muggle or given birth to a psychotic manaic. xirene101: >From Answer.com: Merope (mr'p) , in Greek mythology. 1 One of the Pleiades. She was the wife of Sisyphus, king of Corinth, and the mother of Glaucus. According to one legend she became the lost Pleiad because of the shame she felt for having married a mortal. Kind of along the lines of a Witch marrying a Muggle, hmm? Glaucus was eventually devoured by his own horses, FYI. xirene101 From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Jul 23 20:03:44 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:03:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The House of Gaunt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134421 >>-- In the whole scene Morphin speaks only Parseltongue. Why? Is that all he *can* speak? -- How are the Gaunts able to talk to each other in Parseltongue? In _CoS_ when Harry tries to speak it to anything other than a snake, he can't do it.<< Harry has never attempted to improve his skill as a Parseltongue. My best guess is that since Gaunt seems proud of his family's heritage he would have practiced this skill, and taught his children to become fluent as well. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JodyE50 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 19:22:35 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:22:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable Vow was: JKR Interview on Mugglenet Message-ID: <155.550eb1b4.3013f2fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134422 What I want to know is this..what would happen if a person tried to make an Unbreakable Vow which directly contradicts a previous Unbreakable Vow? This could easily happen under the pressure that a wizard could get into..for example if DD had demanded a UV from Snape to protect Harry, followed by LV demanding a UV to kill Harry. How could you refuse LV? Would a wizard be physically able to utter that second vow, or would he be unable to do it, since it goes against a previous vow? Or perhaps he would die upon uttering the new vow, since by making that new vow, he is guaranteeing that he will break the first one. This was just a thought that occurred to me. Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JodyE50 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 19:11:10 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:11:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Draco get the hand of glory? Message-ID: <20d.57b50aa.3013f04e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134423 Marcela: > This is the scene: > > "...'Perhaps you'd like to take it now?' [Borgin] > 'No, of course I wouldn't, you stupid little man, how would I look > carrying that down the street? Just don't sell it.'..." HBP, Draco's > Detour chapter. > I assumed that this was the other vanishing cabinet. It's "brother" was at Hogwarts. Draco wanted to buy it but leave it at the store, as part of his plan to sneak in the Death Eaters. Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Nanagose at aol.com Sat Jul 23 19:09:59 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:09:59 EDT Subject: Snape/Wormtail (Was: Vance + Peter) Message-ID: <202.633eaff.3013f007@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134424 >>aussie >>1/ Snape doesn't refer to any of the other Maraunders by their >>animagi name, but he calls Peter "Wormtail". Christina: Everyone else does too, though. That's one thing I've always thought odd--while the rest of the Marauders are referred to by their actual names, Peter is referred to as Wormtail. This doesn't even just apply to the characters themselves, either; even in text he is called Wormtail. How much Snape knows about "Wormtail" prior to LV's return is hard to figure out. We know that LV likes to carefully divide his information among the DE's so that no one person knows the same as any other person. Did Snape know the identity of Wormtail from LV's first reign? Did he meet him in person, and know it was Peter? Did LV just tell Snape that a man called Wormtail was responsible for getting him the information on the Potters location, and Snape deduced that Wormtail was actually Sirius? When the map insults Snape, he doesn't unhinge--he is very calm and pointedly calls for Lupin. He even says, "You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it *directly from the manufacturers*?" (emphasis Snape's--PoA, Ch14) >From "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP, we can gather that the Marauders called each other by their nicknames pretty freely. Maybe Snape recognized the names on the map from hearing the nicknames used during his schoolyears. >>aussie >>If Snape knew Peter was Wormtail all along, then he would have kept an eye on the >>Weasley's rat every since Percy brought Scabbers to Hogwarts Even if he did know the real identity of Wormtail, I don't see how he'd know that he was masquerading as the Weasley family rat. >>aussie >>2/ When he found the Map on Harry, and saw the names including >>Wormtail, he immediately called Lupin to his office to explain the >>parchment. Would the map have said Wormtail? I don't think so; at the end of Chapter 17 (PoA), Lupin says, "And then I saw another dot, moving fast toward you, labeled *Sirius Black*..." This was even when Sirius was in his Animagus form. So the map would have said "Peter Pettigrew," not "Wormtail." Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:07:18 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:07:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!!/Nagini as Horcrux/Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: <000e01c58f9d$a0c06d10$c3a0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134425 Richelle wrote: > It's already been said that it could've been the result of a limp body simply falling, so I'll skip that. What we do know is that Snape definitely performed this AK on his own, with Voldemort no where around. I think it's also safe to say that Snape's AK is a little out of practice. > > The difference in the results of the AKs could've been just that simple. Voldemort is clearly more experienced and completely in control whereas Snape's AK, due to lack of "practice" was a lot wilder. Carol responds: So was the big blond death Eater's AK, which went wild and killed another Death Eater--instantly and in the usual way, apparently. Clearly there *is* something unusual about Snape's AK, and maybe he's never used one before, but I don't think it's *just* lack of practice. I think it's also, despite his anger and his look of revulsion, that his anger was directed as much at himself as at Dumbledore and his hatred was entirely directed at himself. He has the *power* to use an AK--no question about that--but perhaps he didn't have the *will* to do it. Or perhaps, as others have suggested, he thought another spell (one that sends out a green light) as he spoke the words "Avada Kedavra," but I don't think that would have worked. And I don't know what would have happened if Dumbledore hadn't fallen from the tower. Imagine if the DE's awe of Snape, Voldemort's new righthand man, had ceased because he cast a failed AK. Maybe *he* would have been murdered by the Death Eaters, who would recognize him as a Dumbledore-lover and a traitor, and maybe that was what he half-hoped would happen but couldn't allow because of his responsibility to Draco. I wish I knew. This is driving me insane. Carol P.S. A thought on Horcruxes: I don't think they can be people, who are subject to illness, old age, and mortality, exactly what Voldemort is trying to avoid. I think it's supposed to be a solid object not subject to corruption, preferably made of gold. And Voldemort would have chosen objects with either symbolic value (a family heirloom marking him as the Heir of Slytherin) or previously existing magical powers. For that reason, it's odd that he would choose Nagini, who may not be subject to human weakness but is almost certainly mortal. I can see the symbolic value (she's a snake, and a dangerous one at that), and her venom has magical powers (but maybe that's only because it has his soul in it?). Maybe he identified with her so strongly that he couldn't resist making her the seventh Horcrux, especially if he was already assured (in his own mind) of immortality, having previously made six other inanimate Horcruxes. Again, I wish I knew. But of this much I'm certain. Harry isn't a Horcrux. Voldemort wanted him dead, period, and any powers (Parseltongue is the only one we know of for sure) that were transferred to Harry were the result of the failed AK, not any intention of Voldemort's. (Not saying that I'm right, only that I'm convinced that this much is true.) And a last thought regarding Lily's eyes: I think Slughorn, collector though he was, had a genuine affection for Lily that prevents him from suspecting that Harry's apparent skill at potion-making is unconnected with hers. When Slughorn sees Harry's eyes, he sees Lily's eyes and remembers her tragic fate, for which he partly blames himself (but not enough to give Harry the unaltered memory). Once Harry has Slughorn at a disadvantage, drunk and sentimentalizing along with Hagrid, he can use that affection (and remorse) to obtain the memory. If it weren't for Harry's having his mother's eyes, he'd never have known about that affection (and Slughorn might have figured out the real source of Harry's prowess, or at least looked into the matter). Carol, who's sorry to combine unrelated ideas but has no choice with the three-post limit From slmuth at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 18:28:09 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:28:09 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_mystery_of_the_DADA_=93curse=94_(Long)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134426 The whole question of the "cursed" or otherwise magically time- limited DADA position really has my brain spinning. It seems to me that there are several questions that are linked together in this one mystery, and if unraveled it could provide some interesting answers to other seemingly unrelated questions. So here are some of the interlinked questions that I see and some possible answers: (I apologize for the lack of supporting quotes, my husband has my copy of HBP!) 1. Why did Tom Riddle want the DADA position? And why did he curse it when he didn't get it? What was the curse? Dumbledore speculates that Riddle may have wanted to find something from Gryffindor or Ravenclaw at Hogwarts, but never got the chance. The curse would most likely be something that would assist him in achieving that goal. Limiting DADA profs tenure to one year would help by making the position always open for LV or his surrogates, but it doesn't completely explain the havoc that DADA profs are able to wreck through the years, and also doesn't explain why Snape was so keen to have the job (see below). 2. Why did DD finally give the position to Snape this year? For years he had thought that having this position would cause Snape to "relapse." We know that DD had figured out that there was some kind of curse on the position, at the least limiting it to one year, possibly doing more. What was different this year to make DD change his mind and take the risk? One simple explanation is that he needed to bring Slughorn on to the staff in order to get the Horcrux information (as well as to protect Sluggy), and since HS is a potions prof, Snape had to be displaced to DADA. 3. Why did Snape keep applying for the DADA position? He was perfectly able to spy on DD and the Order as a Potions prof. Furthermore, in "Spinners End" when Bella accuses Snape of not taking advantage of his position at HWs to do some damage to the enemy, he first defends himself by saying that he never got the DADA position. Bella basically says "so what?" and Snape changes tacks. But it seems significant that Snape seems to think that DADA was necessary for him to accomplish whatever it is that LV wanted done at HWs. This brings me back to -- "what was the nature of the curse???" 4. Why were all those DADA profs able to make so much trouble right under DD's nose? Quirrel has LV right in the back of his head, and is nearly able to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Barty Crouch Jr. is able to fake being Moody all year, enter Harry in the Tri-Wizard Tournament, help him win, and still nearly kill him after he escapes LV. Umbridge is able torture Harry and take over the school. Lupin and Lockheart aren't really sources of trouble, but they are able to keep secrets from DD. Finally, Snape is able to catch DD at his weakest moment and kill him. DD, who seems to have minute knowledge of everything that concerns Harry, doesn't notice these things? Could it be that the curse is a kind of anti-Legilimency or Secrecy Cloak type thing that prevents DD from noticing what the DADA teacher is up to? This would make sense from LV's point of view ? it would allow him to plant someone in that position who could then go find the Ravenclaw or Gryffindor artifact without getting caught. This would also help explain why Snape couldn't leave HWs until he had obtained the DADA post. If his original mission was not only to spy on DD, but also to steal an artifact, he might reasonably need to be the DADA teacher to do it. In fact, I'll bet anything that LV wants Godric Gryffindor's sword, whether or not he still thinks he needs to make another horcrux. (And since Snape apparently failed to get the sword before leaving HWs this year, due to having to kill DD and get out of town, LV may not be quite as happy with him as one might expect.) Finally, this would also explain why DD was so uncharacteristically "blind" when it came to Snape. It wasn't exclusively due to his so-called "flaw" of always seeing the best in people, it was also due to some kind of magical confundment cast on the DADA position by LV. Whew, glad to have all that off my chest! If you made it to the end, I'd love to hear your "yeah, buts "! Janeway From darqali at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:56:27 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:56:27 -0000 Subject: Assorted comments and questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134427 It is clear that the characters of HP are under mistaken impressions on several fronts: For one, they think that Slythern House is the *only* source of Dark Wizards [this is mentioned several times]. Enter Peter Pettigrew, aka Wormtail, from Gryffindor. Then there is the notion the Sorting Hat doesn't make mistakes. [It may *debate*, such as over putting HP in Slythern vs Gryffindor or Herminoe in Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw ...] But the signature trait of Gryffindor is courage. How did Pettigrew get sorted into Gryffindor? His cowardace, self-serving nature, and willingness to sell out friends speaks of a Slythern character, not Gryffindor. [For that matter, how did half-bloods Tom Riddle, and Snape, get sorted into Slytherin if they are not Purebloods ??? ... since pure blood was a trait house founder S. Slythern demanded; to the point this issue became the source of the disagreement over which he left the school .... HP would belong in Slytherin over them, for though his mother was Muggle-born *it remains she was a witch*; so Harry's parents were a witch and a wizard, as he told Malfoy at their first meeting .... making him in one sense more 'purebred' than either Tom Riddle or Snape, who each had a true Muggle, non-magic parent.] I took the scene on the train where Draco discovers and overcomes Harry as indication that Draco's task was *not* to kill Harry [which I had rather assumed *was* the task when Snape discusses the plot with Draco's mother} and think that was why the scene had to be included; but didn't like the way it made Harry look; necessary, tho', to make us wonder what it was Draco was ordered to do [because he could have finished Harry off right there, if *that* had been his task]. Questions: Why does Sybil Trewlawny think students don't know about the Room of Requirement? She has been hiding her empty cooking sherry bottles there for some time. This is the incarnation of the Room that Draco is hiding the damaged Vanishing Cabinet in, when she encounters him there by accident; the same incarnation of the room Harry finds when he "needs to find a place to hide his book" [The HBP's Potions Book he needs to hide from Snape]. When Harry enters this room it is the size of a cathedral and heaped with things hidden .... including fanged frizbees; who did Sybil T think was hiding all those things, if not students? Could she be *that* near-sighted ??? Another question [perhaps answered in the past, please give me a reference if there is a discussion, as I couldn't find it} Why could Harry not initially see Thestrals? [Winged 'horses' which pulled the Hogworts carriages; and visible only to those who have seen death ... or murder?] He was present when LV murdered his parents, after all! O.K., he probably didn't see his father die; as Lily was trying to escape while James held LV off ... but Lily was shielding Harry with her body when she died, so Harry must have seen the event. If one postulates that one must see death when *old enough to understand it* then I could understand why Harry couldn't see them at first. But then, after Cedric was killed in Harry's presence, the first time the Thestral-drawn carriages enter the story again is when Harry leaves Hogworts at the close of that year [ending of GOF; the carriages take the students back to Hogsmede train station]. Why couldn't Harry see them *then*? As it is told, he first saw them the following fall, when they picked the students from the trains to take them to the school .... why the delay? darqali From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 18:23:08 2005 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:23:08 -0000 Subject: ESE Snape and Snogging? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bbkkyy55" wrote: > Sorry if this has been noticed, but... I'm a ESE Snape fan and am > rereading. When Hagrid is talking about the argument he overheard > between Snape and DD he says: > > "Well_ I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted > an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore-" > Well, first of all, we're hearing this conversation from a secondary source; Hagrid. I do love that man dearly, but what if some of the words were changed around? The meaning could be vastly different. Also, what I notice is that Hagrid says 'maybe'. Snape could have said: "Dumbledore, you take too much for granted. I don't know if I want to continue to follow through with this." Whatever it was that Snape said, it didn't seem to shake Dumbledore's faith in him. I like the ESE!Snape theory, but somehow I just can't see Dumbledore taking Snape simply at his word that he had repented. There is a piece of the puzzle missing that we are not aware of. I think it is quite probable that Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow. I can't think of any other reasonable explaination that Dumbledore would give the job of DADA to Snape and risk losing him as a teacher. Snape obviously is trying to keep an eye on what Draco is doing, and Draco manages to block him from his mind. Draco sees it as Snape trying to steal his glory (which is indeed possible), but you could also interperate it as Snape trying to figure out how much time they have left. As I said before, the argument did not cause Dumbledore to lose faith in Snape. We don't know the whole conversation, or even the exact wording of what was said. I've always thought Snape was in all this for himself, or that over the years, he just doesn't care anymore and will align himself with whichever side looks like it will win. I believe that DD and Snape had, in some fashion, a plan for when DD had to die. The slight tremble in Snape's hand, the argument, the brief pause on the tower, and the words he says to Harry after could be interpreted as Snape being good. Of course, I could say that the tremble in his hand was caused by delight or excitement at the thought of ridding himself of Dumbledore, the argument could have been his way of telling DD that he was leaving, the brief pause on the tower could have been him savoring the moment, and the words he said to Harry, which really did sound like advice to me, could have been all taunts. On another note, do we know how Foe Glass works exactly? Krissy From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 23 20:29:00 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:29:00 -0400 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! Message-ID: <004d01c58fc5$295f5510$1dc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134429 Richelle said: "Ah, but we do know that something left the house in ruins. Though it's assumed to be the result of the backfiring AK. An AK out of control, so to speak." Funny you should say that. And I already apologize for going over my quota for today but... A week or so ago I was playing POA on my computer. The first wizard card you collect us Fulbert the Fearful who - died when he performed a defensive charm that backfired and the house fell in. Are those cards cannon? In JKR's most recent interview she would not comment if someone else was at the Potter residence the night HP was attacked. Did Lily, or this someone else, try to perform a defensive charm when they saw what LV was doing? CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:33:02 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:33:02 -0000 Subject: Ch2 "Spinners End"-what a chapter!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134430 delwynmarch wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: > we did NOT NEED to learn what was > in that chapter!! Why do we need > to know ANY of the things we > learn in that chapter? Eggplant responded: > For 6 books we've seen > Snape do extremely nasty things and for 6 books we've heard the hero > of the books tell us over and over that Snape is Evil, and in chapter > 2 we even see Snape making unbreakable vows and conspiring with Death > Eaters, and yet JKR manipulates her readers so skillfully that it's > still a huge shock when we discover in the end that Harry was > absolutely correct and the reason he always acted so unpleasantly is > because Snape is indeed evil. Talk about hiding in plain sight! > Brilliant! zgirnius: Actually, she's even more brilliant that even you credit her with, Eggplant. Have you not been reading any of the zillions of "Snape is Good" posts which have been flooding this list? She's done all you say and there are still people running around giving (in my opinion) cogent, well-reasoned arguments that Snape must still be on the good side...I think for many people the "cliffhanger" at the end of this book is as much "what will Snape do, whose side is he on?" as it is "how will Harry destroy the Horcruxes and defeat LV?" It is not my wish in this post to defend an opinion one way or another regarding Snape's ethics or allegiance, but to discuss more why I think "Spinner's End" was an absolutely wonderful chapter. I really don't get why people dislike it so. I lovced it the first time through, and rereading it a few times has only made it grow on me. I do agree the whole "Snape justifying his past history to Bella" bit is long and adds little to our understanding, but the chapter also adds *loads* of potentially useful information. Or red herrings, but we just can't say at this point. Cool things we see: 1) We have been told in GoF and OotP, but not *shown*, that Snape is a double agent until this chapter. This is actually the only time we see him dealing with DEs so far in any of the books, the first time we see him "in action" as a spy. Or traitor, take your pick! 2) Cissy. We see a different, and surprisingly attractive, side to her. If Draco turns out not-so-bad by the end of Book 7, (by the end of Book 6 this seems entirely possible) in this chapter JKR shows us a possible reason for this. Nothing we have seen of Lucius suggests his son would turn out better...but Cissy seems truly to love her son. 3) Snape and Cissy. This is the one scene ever where Snape appears to be treating someone kindly. (Who'd a thunk it? Though there could be reasons related to being a spy or traitor, again, take your pick.) Also, no matter whose side the man is on, taking the UV is a dangerous, even unnecesary move. It does reassure Cissy, though. (To spell it out: if he's Voldie's man, why make a UV to Cissy? He can just step in and off DD any time he sees an opportunity. The vow in no way helps him achieve this goal at the end. If he's a "good guy", well, maybe he feels he needs to do it to get Bella's trust. But then, keeping in mind what happens to people who break UVs, he's taking an *awfully* big chance...again, why?) 4) The UV itself. Maybe JKR needs to us to see the UV...could there be others in play we do not yet know about? Notice the small detail that Snape *gives Bella instructions* on how to do it. Sure, he's s smart guy, maybe he just read it in a book somewhere, but then again... 5) Wormtail: What's with *him*? How is he "helping" Snape? How do we think he feels about this? We know he has a life-debt to Harry. Now we see he may also have reason to be disgruntled with his treatment by the "bad guys". What might this lead to in Book 7? So, there it is, why I think this chapter has to be there. Some of the above sets up the actions of Book 6, and in particular sets the stage for DDs death at the end. But JKR has also indicated that Books 6 and 7 are more like two parts of one really long book...so we may be seeing some of the people and facts presented here again some time... From carodave92 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:54:46 2005 From: carodave92 at yahoo.com (carodave92) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:46 -0000 Subject: The House of Gaunt In-Reply-To: <1247341800.20050723102708@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134431 Dave: > Here's some musings while reading the _House of Gaunt_ chapter: > > -- In the whole scene Morphin speaks only Parseltongue. Why? > Is that all he *can* speak? > -- If the Gaunts are all Parselmouths, why does Diary!Riddle tell > Harry that the two of them are the only Parselmouths to come > to Hogwarts since Slytherin himself? Were the Gaunts homeschooled? > Maybe after Slytherin's departure all his decendants refused to > go to Hogwarts on principle? Carodave replies: I wondered if Morphin ever learned English. Mr. Gaunt (I can't remember his name and don't have my book with me) doesn't seem overly fond of society, wizard or muggle, and may not have seen reason to teach his son English. I believe that Morphin and Merope were both homeschooled. We saw the reception that visitors get at the Gaunt home, and Mr. Gaunt says that he doesn't read letters that come by owl (can he even read?) so maybe when Morphin and Merope are invited to Hogwarts, their invitations are simply disregarded...or maybe turned down on the grounds that Mr. Gaunt doesn't want them mixing with 'mudbloods' (his term not mine!). If an emissary was sent from the school to pick up the children (a la Dumbledore getting Tom Riddle or Hagrid getting Harry), the emissary surely would have received the same reception as the Ministry official whose memory we saw. I was wondering - how does Tom Riddle know to speak to Morphin in Parseltongue when he arrives at the Gaunt home? He never even tries English but begins in Parseltongue. Carodave From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:50:00 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:50:00 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134432 > >>Inking: > > So, if you don't agree, fine, but let's not argue that one just > now. If you do agree, or you are undecided, you are asking > yourself, as we all are, what does this mean for the conclusion of > the series? > The first thing we need to accept is that the Snape we thought we > knew doesn't exist. The sour and even mean but noble at heart > Potions master with the venomous wit -- we all loved this guy. > But it turns out he was a creation of collective imagination, > seduced of course by JKR and all the reassurances she put in > Dumbledore's mouth. > The real Snape is not that person. He is somebody else. Who, > exactly, we don't know; we just know he is capable of great evil, > and with less excuse for it than Voldemort. > Betsy Hp: Sorry. I can't accept your premise. It's like saying, "okay, let's say Dumbledore's a pedophile, still think he's a good guy?" Because, of course under those circumstances, Dumbledore becomes evil. The reason I'm refusing your premise is because Snape post-HBP is even *more* the man I thought he was. Pre-HBP I knew Snape was brave and clever and willing to do whatever it took to fulfill the task at hand, even take on the derision of his colleagues (i.e. refereeing the quidditch match in PS/SS). But I always feared seeing Snape as *this* much of a badass; I worried that I was overplaying his coolness. But watching him match wits with Bellatrix, getting evidence that he really *is* a spy, being told that he's Voldemort's right-hand-man, and finally seeing that he is as much, if not more Dumbledore's man than Harry (though, honestly, I think Harry would have been capable of taking similar action), I realized I'd been *too* reticent with Snape. Snape *will* do whatever it takes, he *is* that clever and brave. So not only does the "Snape I thought I knew" exist, he exists in technicolor, surround sound, baby! Frankly, I'm thrilled. Betsy Hp (whose husband *still* hasn't finished HBP. *pouts*) From cathmorgan at cetian.net Sat Jul 23 20:41:29 2005 From: cathmorgan at cetian.net (cathmorgan100) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:41:29 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050723062901.25658.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134433 "Quoting two previous posts: leslie41" wrote: > JKR is asked directly: "Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?" > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even > than Voldemort, who never has. > > > I'm wondering what we all should make of this. JKR's 3-part > interview seems for the first time to really indicate that she > believes Snape is evil. Yet in previous interviews she hinted that > there was a redemptive pattern. > > I'm wondering what to think, because it seems in the books that > she's making every effort to leave a good deal of room for > interpretation (unlike Voldemort, Bellatrix, Lucius, Dudley, etc.). ...... snip > > What do ya'll think? > > leslie41 Cathcart, think about all the posts on related threads: I don't think it means Snape is necessarily evil and nothing but evil. I think it means he should have known in every sense what a horrible thing he was putting in to motion by telling LV the prophecy. His purported remorse fits with this, whether we accept it as real or not at this point. I think firstly the key implication of JKR's response is that LV received no love as a child and never became a loving person, whereas Snape was loved by one or both of his parents and perhaps a girl or woman later in life. Snape was more culpable than LV for the outcome at GH because the consequence of telling LV the prophecy would surely be one or more murdered babes, at the very least, an extreme violation of morals and of the love that a child represents to community and family. If Snape had feelings for Lily, so much the worse and could have been one more reason for his leaving the DEs and seeking out DD, but it could hardly be the only source of remorse and culpability. I believe that we will find out an interesting relationship b/n Snape and Lily but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be romantic at all, except for the possibility of a conflicted crush on Snape's part. That said, I agree with the many posters who were shocked at first reading due to both DD's sad end and due to how JKR seemed to so blatantly show Snape as an ESE instead of the complex character he'd been before. So I don't buy it. I'm a huge fan of Snape as one of the most interesting characters in the series. Since the themes of choice and redemption are throughout the books as much as are love and taking action, I still think anything can happen. I hope he chooses redemption by the end, but personally I've decided to truely wait for Bk7 to be disappointed or elated by Snape's portrayal. As long as it fits the story in the grand manner that his latest actions demand. I agree with the many who say that if he's always been evil and lying through his teeth without batting an eye the entire 17? years, that that will be the most *boring* and manipulative setup ever. But I have faith in JKR that she has something very worthwhile up her sleeve regardless of what side he ends up on. Please! From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:46:20 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:46:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!!/Nagini as Horcrux/Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134434 Justcarol67 wrote: > > P.S. A thought on Horcruxes: I don't think they can be people, who are > subject to illness, old age, and mortality, exactly what Voldemort is > trying to avoid. I think it's supposed to be a solid object not > subject to corruption, preferably made of gold. > > Again, I wish I knew. But of this much I'm certain. Harry isn't a > Horcrux.at I completely agree with you. Maybe it is possible to make a living horcrux, but I can't see any reason for anyone to do it intentionally. If you are going to go to all that trouble to protect yourself from death, why would you make a horcrux out of a living creature that is guaranteed to die? I'm not even convinced that Nagini really is a horcrux, by the way. We haven't actually been told that she is. We have just been told that Dumbledore thinks she is. snipsnapsnurr From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:53:54 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Draco get the hand of glory? In-Reply-To: <20d.57b50aa.3013f04e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050723205354.10545.qmail@web54703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134435 I assumed that this was the other vanishing cabinet. It's "brother" was at Hogwarts. Draco wanted to buy it but leave it at the store, as part of his plan to sneak in the Death Eaters. Jody That's what I thought too, Jody. Not to mention Ron mentioned something about Draco's hand of Glory being broken in the beginning of HPB. I was just really confused. Yeah here it is: "Maybe he's broken his hand of Glory," Ron said vaguely (Pg 129 US edition). ~Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 23 20:58:29 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:58:29 -0000 Subject: Spinners End - changing views of Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > > 2) Cissy. We see a different, and surprisingly attractive, side to > her. If Draco turns out not-so-bad by the end of Book 7, (by the end > of Book 6 this seems entirely possible) in this chapter JKR shows us > a possible reason for this. Nothing we have seen of Lucius suggests > his son would turn out better...but Cissy seems truly to love her son. > I quite agree. And this chapter had an unexpected effect for me, in that it changed how I would normally have reacted to the Harry/Draco/Narcissa scene in Diagon Alley later on. When I last saw Narcissa, she was desperately trying to protect her son in a near-hopeless situation. She was alone, vulnerable, and distraught. When Harry mocks her in the robe shop, in front of her son, for the first time I don't feel like applauding his defiance. He comes off as caddish. Here again, we see him thinking he knows everything and has nothing to learn about a situation, but THIS time, we know something that he doesn't. This has always been his tendency, to think that he knows it all, or at least enough to launch into action, and he doesn't. This is why I can't follow the folks who say that the end of HBP proves that Harry was right all along about Snape, and Book 7 is going to be the story of him giving free rein to instincts in order to triumph. I don't think that's his strong suit, and he's all too ready to judge others - Dumbledore even has to tell him explicitly not to judge Merope harshly when he's ready to write her off as a bad mother, because he doesn't know how much suffering she went through before the end. Wanda From tiamik72 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 20:59:34 2005 From: tiamik72 at aol.com (Katie) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:59:34 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > This and all the "Snape is actually good" theories depend on a great > many things being predictable and known, actually far more than is > credible. In order for this to have been a plan, then > > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco had been taken into the > Death Eaters and given the task of killing Dumbledore. > ** Snape had to know that Narcissa would come see him and ask him to > swear the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore. He further > had to know how that would fit into future events. > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco wouldn't have the nerve > to go through with it himself, that he wouldn't just bust a magical > cap in Dumbledore the first time he had his back turned. I agree with your point that Dumbledore and Snape would have basically have had to be fortunetellors or psychic to know that Narcissa would flee to Snape's house with Bella following her in the middle of the night, so concerned about Draco's task. It would also be basically impossible to for them to guess that Voldemort's plan was to use Draco as punishment for Lucius's shortcomings, and that Draco would have to kill Dumbledore. BUT, that doesnt mean that Dumbledore and Snape never had any agreements of this kind whatsoever. They are in a war. There are so many scenarios that could come up in a war and they had to be prepared. Dumbledore and Snape are both very logical people, and with Snape being a double-triple agent or whatever, they must have had many conversations regarding Snape's loyalty and whatnot. They must have had conversations regarding what Snape should do if his cover was ever about to be blown. I do not believe that Dumbledore would ever beg for his life like that. The two of them must have been ready for whatever situation arises in order for thier side to win the war. The whole Draco subplot was a "side-effcet" for lack of a better word, and the Unbreakable Vow just complicated things. I mean that, There are many scenarios that could have come up during the war....and just because this scenario with Draco came up...does not mean that Snape was not loyal to Dumbledore...he had to keep his cover in front of Draco and the Other Death Eaters. Just because Dumbledore and Snape cannot know the specifics of the future doesnt mean that they could have never sat down and said....if, god forbid, that the time ever arises, I may need you to kill me Severus......and at this point they argue, argue, argue, argue some more, but Snape must know that Dumbledore would never ask this of him unless it was absolutely necessary. And not that Jim said this...but other people have been saying that one of Dumbledore's fatal flaws has been to trust just about everyone will turn over to the good side eventually....and that his trust is unwavering to a flaw. But that is not always true. The first pensieve scene where Harry sees Dumbledore meeting Tom Riddle as a child. Dumbledore did not put a blind trust in Voldemort at that time. He knew there was a thirst for power and recognition in Riddle at such a young age. Dumbledore always has a great sense of the good characteristics in people just as must as he can sense the bad characteristics in people. His trust does not always make him out to be a fool, he must have definitive proof to trust Severus Snape....even Dumbledore is not going to blindly trust a so-called former death eater, crawling over to the other side without some hard, solid truth. Yes, he's getting older in age...but Dumbledore is alot wiser and less niave than any of us I'm sure. And eveyone else has posted about Harry calling Snape a coward and Snape's reaction to it, so I wont say much more to prove that point except that I do not think Sanpe was being a coward. > ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to keep Harry > from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes on him after this plan > worked out. > > Harry will never believe anything about Snape again ? Harry will try > to kill Snape the first chance he gets. If Snape came to Harry and > tried everything he could to persuade Harry, it would do no good. > Snape couldn't convince any of the Order, either. It's hard to figure > out how Snape can be any good to the Order or Harry after this. > I agree with you on this one, but maybe Dumbledore's portrait will have some explaining to do to Harry. And I am sure there are probably many portraits of Dumbledore around wizarding Britain.....including chocolate frog cards! > I believe Dumbledore did not seek death, but he didn't shy away from > it, either. He knew the torch was about to be passed from him to > Harry, and was determined to ensure Harry survived. > > No plan survives contact with the enemy. Dumbledore understood this, > and I don't think he tried to play puppetmaster to this degree. The > puppets don't cooperate. He did prepare and ensured his ultimate > weapon survived. > > Jim Ferer Beautifully put, but we must agree to disagree about the level that Dumbledore played puppetmaster. I think he palyed a bigger part in his own death than some people believe......but no one is infalliable, even if i would like to beleive DD is :) Katie W. From pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx Sat Jul 23 21:03:00 2005 From: pollynesbitt at yahoo.com.mx (pollynesbitt) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:03:00 -0000 Subject: SHIPS: Who gets who at the end? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134438 Personally, my twisted little mind would like to see Hermione and Draco together. I really think they would keep each other in their place. They?re a perfect match! And who knows, after what has happened, maybe Draco will turn good..They?ve been at each other?s necks since day one..it?s time they kissed and made up! But hey, that?s just me! Besides Harry points to something important: maybe Hermione and Ron together as a couple would only screw up their relationship as friends and no one wants that! Ron and Luna. He?s the only one who actually finds her funny. Harry...don?t know if he?ll survive. either way, superheroes never really get the girl at the end. They are destined to a life of solitude. Did anyone see the Tonks and Lupin thing coming?? That?s weird. Maybe it?s a foreshadow. JKR is granting Lupin a lovelife before she murders him in book 7? pollynesbitt From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 21:33:41 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:33:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP Ginny and Harry (was:Re: Snape's AK Failed!!! with other comments) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134439 > >>Phoenixgod: > > Second point, while sudden attractions happen in real life, when > we are dealing with the main character of a long standing series > we need this thing called foreshadowing and considering how many > people shipped Harry with someone other than Ginny, JKR did a > pretty bad job of it. > >>Max: > > What is more important is who did readers feel Harry would > actually end up with (regardless of their particular preference). > In poll after poll Ginny won, hands down. Lucky guess?. . . I > think not. Sounds like there was enough foreshadowing to me. :) > >>Phoenixgod: > Ginny wins those polls because people like the symmetry of H/G not > the character of Ginny or 'foreshadowing'. People like the idea of > Harry rescuing his LI from the big bad monster. They like that > Harry (who looks just like his dad) has a gf that is just like his > mom (red head and all). Betsy Hp: I don't think the polls were all reflecting what people *wanted* to happen, but what they thought would *actually* happen. And frankly, I think JKR made it fairly clear, from the first introduction of Ginny in PS/SS that she was designed to be Harry's love interest. And while it took a while for Harry to even *see* Ginny as a girl, he noticed her enough to note her eye color. Something that doesn't happen with any of the other Weasley's, IIRC. You may not like the ship (I say politely knowing full well you loath it ) but I don't think you're giving JKR, or her readers enough credit. It's not because Ginny looks like Lily. (Does Ginny look like Lily? Red hair isn't enough, IMO. No one accuses Luna of being a Petunia stand-in.) And frankly, Harry is rather clearly more his mother's son, than his father's. If we were going with parental symmmetry, Harry would end up with Draco, IMO. There's an essay that points out quite well, IMO, the foreshadowing of the Harry/Ginny ship, written by... erm... Ginny Weasley (heh). It's actually part 2 of a pretty strongly worded argument against the more militant Harry/Hermione shippers, so read it with caution. But the canon is incredibly solid. http://www.livejournal.com/users/ginny_weasley/4192.html#cutid1 > >>Phoenixgod: > It can't be about the actual character of Ginny because the people > who shipped Ginny with Harry when she was a shy, tongue tied girl > are still shipping her with Harry now that she is a spunky power > ranger. The girl's are totally different. How can they both be > his perfect girl? the answer is that they can't be. Betsy Hp: Or the answer is that those who wrote early fanfic of Harry/Ginny really didn't get Ginny's character. I, honestly, *hated* the shy, tongue-tied version of Ginny featured in so much fanfic. I much prefer JKR's Ginny. She's a bit of a bitch, but Harry's a bit of a bastard, so I think they're well suited. Frankly, (and I may well be in the minority) I loved the way Ginny looked just before Harry kissed her in HBP. She was like a warrior, IMO. And especially since she brought about a Gryffindor victory while Harry was absent from the pitch, I think she's been foreshadowed (heh) to be like wives of old and keep the homefires burning while Harry goes on his scavenger hunt. (And yes, to keep the fortress safe, one *does* need to be a warrior. If Hogwarts does reopen, I imagine Ginny and Neville and Luna will do their part to keep it out of Voldemort's hands.) Which means I disagree with the "Spiderman" descriptor used for Harry and Ginny's scene at Dumbledore's funeral. While Peter Parker was keeping MaryJane in the dark to keep her safe, Ginny knows exactly who Harry is and what he will be doing. If anything, they parallel the, "Go get'em, Tiger," of the second Spiderman film. Betsy Hp From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jul 23 21:39:30 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:39:30 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the Parselmouth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134440 >In the first visit that Dumbledore & Harry take into the Pensieve, they >go to the Gaunt's house as a member of the Ministry is arriving. The >Ministry member does not understand what is being said but Dumbledore >helps Harry figure out that Parseltongue is being used. With that in >mind, how does Dumbledore understand the conversations that ensue >within the house? He seems to have an extraordinary knowledge of the >events inside and the conversations they are having to be guessing what >is being said... that said, Dumbledore must be a Parselmouth. >Thoughts? > >Genma Since Dumbledore can speak Mermish (GoF), it doesn't surprise me that he can understand Parselmouth. I don't think that that necessarily means that he can speak it himself. There is a substantial linguist difference between understanding a spoken language and being able to generate it as part of a normal conversation. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 21:39:19 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:39:19 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: <2a388f970507191026d4dfe31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134441 Hank Alme wrote: > This also would explain the topic of the argument witnessed between DD > and Snape. Snape tells DD what he has done, and DD lets on what > Draco's task is. Snape is horrified, and wants to refuse any part of > it. DD lays down the law with Sanpe, just as he will later do with > Harry. DD seems to realize, unlike many of the others, that *Harry*, > not DD, is the one to do in LV. What it takes to facilitate that -- > including sacrificing himself -- it takes. zgirnius: Excellent response to Jim's post, Hank, I agree with a lot of your points and just wanted to throw in one additional supporting comment. One piece of many "Snape is good" theories postulates that DD is slowly dying throughout the book-that the damage from the destruction of the ring Horcrux is not reversible, and has only been slowed. Many have pointed out that DD is more valuable to Harry than Snape because he is such an excellent mentor, a more powerful wizard, etc. So it does not "make sense" to sacrifice DD for Snape, it does not help Harry. Which is true as a general statement, except that a DD who will be dead in weeks or months *is* less valuable than a healthy, loyal Snape now fully trusted by LV. Well, it's really fun to argue this one, we will see in Book 7! From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 21:47:48 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:47:48 -0000 Subject: Spinners End - changing views of Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" > I quite agree. And this chapter had an unexpected effect for me, in > that it changed how I would normally have reacted to the > Harry/Draco/Narcissa scene in Diagon Alley later on. When I last saw > Narcissa, she was desperately trying to protect her son in a > near-hopeless situation. She was alone, vulnerable, and distraught. > When Harry mocks her in the robe shop, in front of her son, for the > first time I don't feel like applauding his defiance. He comes off as > caddish. I loved the Harry/Narcissa confrontation. I loved seeing Harry that strong and defiant. No matter what book it was, in my mind I always pictured Harry as a small young boy in oversized clothes. It wasn't until that moment that I truly envisioned Harry as a man. Standing up to Narcissa and calling her out was bad ass and I laughed with sheer glee the first time I read it. Narcissa really surprised me in Spinners end. Thanks to fan fic I always pictured her as a much more calculating and self possessed woman. This weepy, begging individual made me like her a lot less. And lest we get too sympathetic with her and Draco, remember she was trying to enlist Snapes aid in helping Draco *murder* someone. I don't think that's his strong suit, and he's all too ready > to judge others - Dumbledore even has to tell him explicitly not to > judge Merope harshly when he's ready to write her off as a bad mother, > because he doesn't know how much suffering she went through before the > end. But isn't that Dumbledore's problem? He is always unwilling to judge someone harshly. Merope basically raped that guy every night they were together under the love spell. That deserves harsh judgement. But this is the guy who knew that Draco incompetent assassination attempts nearly led to the deaths of two of his students and he still did nothing to stop him. As much as I loved DD in this book, that was just dumb. phoenixgod2000 From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jul 23 21:42:18 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:42:18 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Greetings all! > > Whenever I think of the second chapter of HBP, "Spinners End", I get > the nagging feeling that JKR is playing with us. Mainly, my main > concern is: what is the POINT of that chapter?? houyhnhnm: In terms of what is said, it is very ambiguous. However there are at least three lies or omissions that Snape tells Bellatrix (or fails to tell her) I think it shows what it means to be a spy. We finally get to see what it is that Snape does. I love the title--Spinner's End. Why "Spinner's End", why not "Spinner's Row". The spinner of lies, for all his virtuosity, has met his end. He is caught in his own web of deceit. I think it shows "loyal death eater" is NOT one of the possible explanations for Snape's behavior. Because what takes place that day is not the end for him if he is, just another opportunity. The other two possibilities are that he simply loves the power of playing the game OR he has remained loyal to Dumbledore. I favor the latter even though JKR doesn't give much encouragement. I've wanted to see Snape redeemed ever since seeing the teenage Snape in the pensieve. The description reminded me so much of a student I once had. From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 21:49:58 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:49:58 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" > Betsy Hp: > Sorry. I can't accept your premise. Then I have to say: why respond, for the whole point was to think through the premise as given. :) ["So, if you don't agree, fine, but let's not argue that one just now."] Consider it a hypothetic, to work upon the task of seeing all sides, and all possibilities. Is it really so utterly unthinkable, that Dumbledore might have been mistaken--or at the least, fooled? This possibility is brought up repeatedly in the text; this might be only a reference to young Tom Riddle, or it might be foreshadowing. If one objects to the foreshadowing on the grounds that it's entirely too obvious, I'd like to point you to the romance of Ron and Hermione, also rejected by many a poster on *exactly the same grounds*. No, at least as an exercise, it's well worth going through and utterly re-examining everything that we thought we knew. For example, what about the possiblity that Snape did not, as we've tended to assume, defect from Voldemort's side at profound risk to himself, but was rather sent *by* Voldemort to Dumbledore's side to play the role of penitent? If Snape was a spy on Voldemort he must have had the means to conceal it; logically, he then has the means to conceal it from Dumbledore as well. Keep in mind that one traitor in the Order escaped Dumbledore's notice, after all. Unless there's something going on with Peter of another sort--but that would also violate your conditions about Dumbledore being good, so I don't think you want to go there. :) Now, if you can point me to something that absolutely positively cannot possibly be read as Snape looking out for himself, I'd love to see it. Theme has become a weak point to argue upon, because none of us know what Rowling is really aiming for. Is she trying to make a point about looking beyond appearances, or is she making a demonstration of what pent-up bitterness and resentment can do to a man? Or is it rather that one should not put absolute faith in a mentor, but rather seek for one's own answers and be true to the heart as well as the mind? At least try the exercise before rejecting it out of hand. -Nora always finds it instructive to go back and look at what assumptions lie around all of our statements From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:01:10 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:01:10 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices, and CapsLock!Harry in OoP (was The House of Gaunt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134445 Wanda wrote: "The orphanage isn't nice by any means, but I get the feeling that Harry wouldn't have found it so bad, if he'd had to live there. There was a sense that somebody there cared about children, even if the place was threadbare and poor. Mrs. Cole wasn't a monster - she was actually quite a smart woman, and she was gracious enough to offer Dumbledore a drink, which was more than the Dursleys have ever done. Altogether, it changed my mind for the worse about Tom Riddle. I'd previously imagined him living in a filthy, abusive hellhole, and thought that that might have warped him. Now I don't think that that is an excuse - he wasn't a good boy who was twisted by abuse and suffering, and couldn't help himself. He had no excuse for being cruel and evil - it was something he chose for himself." Del replies: Quite the contrary IMO. Tom did not choose to be evil: he was BORN with a distinct evil (or at least severely screwed-up) nature, and his childhood circumstances prevented him from finding another way when it was still time. Mrs Cole commented about how Tom was *always* a weird kid. She pointed out that even as a *baby* he wasn't normal, mainly he didn't cry much. This is something that bothers me much. Before HBP, I had lots of questions about what kind of kid Tom was, and how he came to be what he became. I was hoping that HBP would show us that he indeed *chose* to become weird. But that's pointedly NOT what JKR tells us. Completely the opposite in fact: she openly tells us that Tom was NEVER normal. But if he was never normal, then how could he be expected to make normal choices? See, that's the thing that bothers me. JKR says that she doesn't believe that anyone is born evil, but on the other hand, she gives us that kid who was never normal to start with, and who grew up in circumstances that sure didn't help (mainly, no magical parents to identify his bad acts and deal with them). Tom was: - screwed up right from birth - extremely powerful - raised in circumstances that fostered his cruelty and prevented his being controlled We also know, from an interview that JKR gave, that he never loved. That's an extremely strong statement. No matter how much we are supposed to make our own choices, I just don't see how Tom could have chosen another path. He was born with a psychopathic disposition, he never received any structuring love, he had the power to make his cruel fantasies come true, and nobody could control him. Being just a kid, neither born nor raised with a strong moral compass, he made the only choice that any kid in his situation would have made: he did NOT choose, he stayed on the easy path, he did NOTHING to fight his natural disposition, he gave in to his nature. He was truly the embodiment of evil: the boy who was born without a good disposition, and who never had any incentive to develop one. But this was a "by default" evil: it was evil that grew because no love fought against it. I guess that's why JKR said that Snape is more culpable: because Snape had to choose to do evil when he knew better, while LV simply never chose, and let himself be driven by his nature. While I'm at it, I'd like to point out that I've come to the conclusion that CapsLock!Harry in OoP was NOT due to Harry himself at all. It wasn't grief, it wasn't hormones, it wasn't teenage angst. It was LV. CapsLock!Harry started right after LV was reborn, and it ended just after LV chose to close his mind to Harry. So it seems obvious to me that Harry's bad temper, his slight cruel streak, his disregard for others' feelings, all those things that I disliked so much in OoP, they were simply due to Harry being in contact with LV. It's LV who has a bad temper, who is cruel, who has no compassion, and so on. Harry was simply being contaminated by those emotions. Now the freaky part is when I start thinking about how AWFUL it must be to be LV, what kind of living hell he's putting himself through! If Harry was only lightly reflecting LV's usual mood, then the real thing is pure evil and pure hell indeed... Much worse than death itself... Del From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 22:07:41 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:07:41 EDT Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses Message-ID: <209.599df9d.301419ad@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134446 Trekkie wrote: I think there's a VERY good reason why we're introduced to Non-verbal spells in this book. If they didn't have some ... larger meaning, there was no use to bring them in at all. So it supports my pet theory that, not, Snape wasn't able to cast a functional AK against Dumbledore, the only person who has ever truly trusted and protected him - so he *said* the words Avada Kedavra, but since he couldn't possibly mean them, he had to couple them with a non-verbal spell, expelliarmus or something similar, to throw Dumbledore up and kill him, weakened as he was. I am sure that AK isn't the *only* curse that is lethal anyway. Snape had to figure out siomething that would look convincing. He NEEDED it to appear like he WAS able to AK Dumbledore, if it came out that he "loved" Dumbledore too much to do so, he would have blown his DE cover completely. So I'm pretty sure there was a non-verbal spell at play here, as well as the unsuccesful AK. Julie says: I wonder if you can speak one spell while thinking another and have either of them work? We don't have any canon for it, but I suppose if anyone could do it, it would be Snape, since one thing we have learned in HBP is that Snape really is a very powerful wizard. Still, I don't think Snape performed a full AK on Dumbledore. Either he used the AK to mask another spell, or he performed an incomplete AK (but with enough strength to knock Dumbledore of the tower, thus effective enough to kill him in his weakened state). Eggplant: In short, there are so many unanswered questions that it seems to me that an analysis of abused!Snape is way over what we see in canon. I won't say that it is beyond reason. If JKR wants to use it as foreshadowing, she is well on her way, but by itself, it's not there. If people believe it as a gut feeling, I can certainly buy that. I have gut feelings about many things ;o) So, if anyone is convinced that Snape was abused, and would like to share their reasoning, I'm all ears. I would just be interested to know if I am just not sharing a gut feeling, or if I am missing canon. By the way, now we know why Harry did so poorly in Snape's Occlumency lessons in book 5 and why they weakened his defenses rather than strengthen them. Julie says: I supposed I'm reasonably convinced Snape lived in an abusive household because there's not really any reason for JKR to put the scene in, except if it gives us some actual insight into Snape. I know that pensieve scene doesn't prove abuse, but it certainly seems to show how the apple never falls far from the tree. And, yes, JKR throws in occasional red herrings, but she doesn't tend to go overboard with them. Snape has enough against him based on what we know of his past and personality. There's no need for JKR to pad the case, then pull that rug out for no real purpose. Inge: So it could very well be that Dumbledore has kept Snape from teaching DADA because of the jinx on the job? Dumbledore can't afford to lose Snape as a teacher - but why is it that he then gives Severus the DADA- job in Harry's 6th year anyway - knowing it may just mean the end of Snape teaching at Hogwarts? Julie: We have to assume that Dumbledore didn't expect Snape to remain at Hogwarts once the year was out. The war is heating up, and my best guess is that Dumbledore expected he would have to send Snape back to Lord Voldemort as a deep cover spy, using some means the two concocted to make Snape appear once again a loyal Death Eater. And I'm guessing that among those alternatives was the "worst case scenario"--i.e., Snape killing Dumbledore when Draco couldn't, thus keeping Snape alive and placing him where he can do the most damage to Voldemort and give the most aid to Harry and the Order. My feeling is that Dumbledore achieves two things when he makes Snape the DADA teacher. 1. DD enhances Harry's learning experience just when he believes Harry needs it most, and not just with a very competent DADA teacher teaching the non-verbal spells Harry will need to know against LV, but also with Harry back in Potions where he actually *learns* for a change, from the HPB potions book he has--not coincidentally, I'm sure--been loaned. (And isn't it amazing that he's learning the crucial DADA and Potions information he'll need from the same person, Snape/aka HBP?) And 2. DD is giving Snape his heart's desire, the chance to teach DADA before Snape leaves Hogwarts for good (whether he he dies or not, I don't think Snape will ever be back there as a teacher again). Janeway: 2. Why did DD finally give the position to Snape this year? For years he had thought that having this position would cause Snape to "relapse." We know that DD had figured out that there was some kind of curse on the position, at the least limiting it to one year, possibly doing more. What was different this year to make DD change his mind and take the risk? One simple explanation is that he needed to bring Slughorn on to the staff in order to get the Horcrux information (as well as to protect Sluggy), and since HS is a potions prof, Snape had to be displaced to DADA. Julie: I don't know about that. Why couldn't DD make Slughorn a DADA professor? I'm sure Slughorn knows enough about it (he knew about Horcruxes for instance) to get by as a DADA teacher. And it's not like Dumbledore has hired teachers with the most competence, especially in DADA, given that he let that dimwit Lockheart teach DADA one year. And Quirrell didn't seem all that great either (certainly Umbridge wasn't though DD had nothing to do with that). So, if all DD wanted was a way to get at Slughorn's memory, he didn't *have* to put him in Potions, especially if he feared Snape would be harmed in any way by the DADA curse. DD pretty much does what will help him achieve his goals, period, thus he put Slughorn and more particularly Snape *exactly* where he wanted them both, IMO. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 23 22:19:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:19:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death / Slughorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "UNIX4EVR" wrote: > > > > > > > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > > Slughorn > > > > blu > > Nope. He would have returned to his normal shape as Slughorn after > being killed. Geoff: Are you sure about that? I must disagree, because canon states otherwise.... 'Crouch took a deep,shuddering breath, then began to speak in a flat, expressionless voice. "My mother saved me. She knew she was dying. She persuaded my father to rescue me as a last favour to her. He loved her as he had never loved me. He agreed. They came to visit me. They gave me a draught of Polyjuice Potion containing one of my mother's hairs. She took a draught of Polyjuice Potion containing one of my hairs. We took on each other's appearance.".... ...."The Dementors are blind. They sensed one healthy, one dying person entering Azkaban. They sensed one healthy, one dying person leaving it. My father smuggled me out, disguised as my mother, in case any prisoners were watching through their doors. My mother died a short while afterwards in Azkaban. She was careful to drink Polyjuice Potion until the end. She was buried under my name and bearing my appearance. Eveyone believed her to be me."' (GOF "Veritaserum" pp.593-594 UK edition) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:20:52 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723222053.89292.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134448 Del wrote: ...edited... >> No matter how much we are supposed to make our own choices, I just don't see how Tom could have chosen another path. He was born with a psychopathic disposition, he never received any structuring love, he had the power to make his cruel fantasies come true, and nobody could control him. Being just a kid, neither born nor raised with a strong moral compass, he made the only choice that any kid in his situation would have made: he did NOT choose, he stayed on the easy path, he did NOTHING to fight his natural disposition, he gave in to his nature. Juli: Actually, current psychiatric theories, say you are not born with any "disease" or personality. Your genes may pre-dispose you to a certain type of personality, but in no way is it definitive. Psychiatric diseases are multi-factorials, they result from the combination of genetics, up-raising, culture, choices, and experiences. Say both your parents have OCD (obsessive - compulsive disorder), then you have the OCD genes, but it does not mean you will have OCD. The same goes with any psychopathic personality. Tom obviously had some weird genes on the Gaunt side: lots of inbreeding cause genetic alterations, and Merole wasn't what you'd call a normal person. He was raised in an orphanage, a place without much love, but still, an OK environment, AFAIK he wasn't molested, abused, or mistreated. He did all the mistreating, he bullied kids, he enjoyed making them hurt. It is not normal, he was told (by Mrs Cole) that it was wrong, then by Dumbledore. When he started at Hogwarts he had a fresh start, but he chose the path he had already taken. The path of evil. Remember Harry was raised in much worse conditions than Tom (IMO), and he's not a psychotic killer, with delusions to rule the world. He's an OK kid. Tom, from a young age started making his own choices, he was very independent, he trusted no-one, he was pretty self-sufficient. He chose to take those two kids to the cave, he chose to kill a rabbit... He made many choices that eventually led him to the evil person he's become. Could he have changed? Yes, definitively. Think of Draco: he was born in a pure-blooded family, very racist, feeling superior, he's father's a bad guy, his mother's no angel either, still, he's not evil. He has made his choices: he chose to lower his wand and not to kill Dumbledore. He chose. He chose to do whatever it took to protect his family. So, yes Tom chose to become evil, every step he took took him deeper into the darkness, he knew what he was doing, but it didnt stop him, he became what he wanted. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:33:13 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's death / Slughorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723223314.17701.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134449 UNIX4EVR wrote: ...edited... He would have returned to his normal shape as Slughorn after being killed. Juli: There's another reason why Slughorn couldn't be using a Polyjuice potion and pretend to be Dumbledore. The Polyjuice's effects last for an hour (Cos, GoF...), Dumbledore and Harry where away for what seemed more than an hour, so Slughorn would have un-polyjuices back to himself "It looks like the book says it should ... once we've drunk it, we'll have exactly an hour before we change back into ourselves." (CoS, Ch 12) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:35:02 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:35:02 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134450 > >>Betsy Hp: > Sorry. I can't accept your premise. > >>Nora: > Then I have to say: why respond, for the whole point was to think > through the premise as given. :) ["So, if you don't agree, fine, > but let's not argue that one just now."] Consider it a > hypothetic, to work upon the task of seeing all sides, and all > possibilities. Betsy Hp: Erm.. because I didn't want to? Actually it was more the statement that no matter how you felt the scene went down, with or without Dumbledore's knowledge, Snape is an entirely new character, that I disagreed with. And it was that statement I was responding to. Inkling said: "I don't want to argue here about pros and cons of the various theories put forth about why Snape killed Dumbledore." And so I didn't. (Frankly, I don't want to argue those theories myself until I've done at least one more read through and have the book on hand to look up canon. *peeks over at husband diligently reading*) But then Inkling said: "The first thing we need to accept is that the Snape we thought we knew doesn't exist." And I totally disagree with that. The Snape in HBP is *exactly* the Snape I thought he was. > >>Nora: > > At least try the exercise before rejecting it out of hand. Betsy Hp: I did though. I went through the whole, "Ohmigod Snape is evil!" shock when I first read HBP (see message 133203). Then I thought about it and realized, that no, Snape is exactly who he's always been, and Dumbledore is exactly who he's always been. And that's why I rejected Inkling's premise and gave the response I did. Betsy Hp (who feels totally free to take a response in any direction she wants) From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 23 22:45:52 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:45:52 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <1f1.402386c6.3013830b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > > > On the subject of JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" I'd have > to agree > > with Silence that the wording seemed off. My first thought was "As > far as > > what goes?" > > > > ~Cassie~ > > > > > > Muellem: > > > I posted this before and the more I think about it, the more it makes > sense(at least to me) > > The theme that DD is trying to drill into Harry's head in HBP is love. > Not romantic, sexual love - but love. Harry's mother saved him by > love. Voldemort's mother loved him, but she died when he was born. so, > LV never had a mother's love. So, that is why I think who loved Snape > - it is simple. His mother. > > from interview: > MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. > Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? > > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than > Voldemort, who never has > > I cannot imagine that a boy that was as good-loooking as Riddle NEVER > was loved in a romantic way. Even Draco gets some. I believe JKR is > alluding to a mother's love in her passage. > I think you misunderstood my question. I was referring to Snape being > culpable, not Snape being loved. Was she referring to all his wrongdoings or to a > specific event/s? > > ~Cassie~ Snape being culpable - I took that to mean his initial joining of the DeathEaters. And if he is now turned evil, which I don't think he is, that is another event. Also, him turning out to be such a bitter, nasty git that he is... colebiancardi From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 23:01:06 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:01:06 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"?/Occlumency and Pensieves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134452 "justcarol67" wrote: > According to JKR's combined > Leaky/Mugglenet interview, it was > Harry's own emotions that made it > difficult if not impossible for > him to learn Occlumency Harry might have had difficulty learning Occlumency with any teacher, but with Snape he had no chance at all. Zero. And with another teacher even if the lessons did no good at least they would not have actually made things worse as Snape did. > I very much doubt that Dumbledore > would be reduced to begging Snape > not to kill him, or that his > Legilimency has been completely > blocked by Snape's Occlumency, > however superb Snape's skills Snape asked Bellartrix if she really thought he could have fooled Voldemort, the greatest Legilimens the world has ever seen; well I don't know what Bellartrix would say but as for me, yes, that's exactly what I think. If Snape really did fool Dumbledore for 16 years then his skill at Occlumency must have been even greater than what Dumbledore realized, much greater, he must be skillful enough to fool Voldemort too. At one point in book 5 Snape let slip that the Dark Lord can almost always tell when somebody is lying to him. Almost. I think Snape is not just another wizard, he is far far far more powerful than we realized; when Snape walked into the room just before he killed Dumbledore the other Death Eaters seemed terrified of him, even the werewolf was frightened. When Harry and Snape fight in book 6 the surprise is not that Harry is so weak, it is that Snape is so astonishly strong. > nor do I believe that Snape > told the truth to Bellatrix. I agree. The part of Snape's tale to Bellartrix I found least convincing was his actions in Harry's first year. Granted he wouldn't want to kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, but why save him when somebody else is trying to kill him? He certainly hated Harry so why didn't he just sit on his hands and then cry crocodile tears over Harry's dead body? In fact throughout the entire series there is no denying Snape does seem to be protecting Harry from death (but not from pain). Snape hates Harry with a passion so why on earth would he do that? Because Snape had heard the entire prophecy. Snape hates Harry but he wants him alive and healthy because he knows Harry has the only chance of killing Voldemort. And Snape wants Voldemort dead as much as Harry does. Snape told Dumbledore that he only heard half of the prophecy and he told the same thing to Voldemort, but I don't think that's true. I think Snape heard every single word of the prophecy. Snape knew the first half would make Voldemort want to kill Harry and so he immediately told the Dark Lord about it. But Snape also knew from the "marked as an equal" part that that it would be extremely dangerous for Voldemort to attack the boy. He neglected to tell his master about that bit because he wanted Voldemort dead. Did you ever notice that whenever Snape talks about Harry, even with Bellartrix, he always makes sure to emphases how absolutely mediocre Harry is and how there is absolutely positively nothing exceptional about Harry. Nothing nothing nothing! Snape does that so people don't think he heard the entire prophecy. Was Snape really unaware that Voldemort was sticking out of the back of Quirel's head? No doubt Voldemort was blocking his presents from Snape and no doubt Voldemort's vanity convinced him that no wizard could have possibly overcome his defenses, but I think Snape did overcome them, and the last thing in the world that Snape wanted was for Voldemort to get the Philosopher's stone. So he helped Harry. Snape wants to be the most powerful wizard in the world, but 3 wizards stood in the way of his ambition. Snape killed one of them at the end of book 6 and he plans to get Harry to kill the other in book 7. And then we have the hideous final bloody battle to the death between Harry and Snape, outcome unknown. > a triumph for the ESE! Snape theorists I keep hearing that and it embarrasses me to say this, but will somebody please take pity on me and explain what ESE means. Eggplant From bob.oliver at cox.net Sat Jul 23 22:25:17 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:25:17 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > Then I have to say: why respond, for the whole point was to think > through the premise as given. :) ["So, if you don't agree, fine, > but let's not argue that one just now."] Consider it a hypothetic, > to work upon the task of seeing all sides, and all possibilities. > > Is it really so utterly unthinkable, that Dumbledore might have > been mistaken--or at the least, fooled? This possibility is > brought up repeatedly in the text; this might be only a reference > to young Tom Riddle, or it might be foreshadowing. If one objects > to the foreshadowing on the grounds that it's entirely too obvious, > I'd like to point you to the romance of Ron and Hermione, also > rejected by many a poster on *exactly the same grounds*. Excellent point. The books are, it is true, full of references to how Dumbledore trusts Snape. They are also, however, full of examples of how Dumbledore is often wrong about people -- sometimes in spectacular ways. In PS/SS he was wrong about Quirrel. In CoS he was wrong about Lockheart. In PoA he was revealed to have been wrong about Sirius and Wormtail, and perhaps about Lupin as well. In GoF he was fooled by someone impersonating one of his oldest friends. In OOTP he was wrong about Harry, Sirius, AND Snape. We also have the hint in HBP that he had been wrong about the Dursleys (although that does contradict - I suspect by conscious choice on JKR's part - some of what he said in OOTP). Added to is JKR's statement in her interviews about how trusting too readily and wanting to believe the best of people really IS a weakness of Dumbledore's, that indeed his great intelligence sometimes made him liable to large-scale emotional misunderstandings and miscalculations. The theme of Dumbledore's weakness in this area runs straight through all the books. On the face of it, there seems little reason to believe he might not have been wrong about Snape -- particularly if Snape was playing his own selfish game and if Snape came under severe emotional stress that Dumbledore did not fully forsee or understand. > > Keep in mind that one traitor in the Order escaped Dumbledore's > notice, after all. Unless there's something going on with Peter of > another sort--but that would also violate your conditions about > Dumbledore being good, so I don't think you want to go there. :) Another good point. See above. > Now, if you can point me to something that absolutely positively > cannot possibly be read as Snape looking out for himself, I'd love > to see it. Hmmm. It's hard to answer that one. Self-interest is really PERCIEVED self-interest, after all. And at the moment, we don't really have enough evidence as to what Sevvie's perceptions are. I will hazard a guess, however, and not be surprised if I'm wrong. I'm going to hazard that Severus is much more moved by raw emotion than he likes anyone to believe. I will further guess that Dumbledore's miscalculation with regard to occlumency is but the tip of a very large iceberg with regard to both Harry and Severus. He did not understand how damaged either of them were by their experiences (damaged being JKR's word, not mine). Therefore, both were capable of acting in ways he did not expect, and I mean that on a much larger scale than just OOTP. > Theme has become a weak point to argue upon, because none of us know > what Rowling is really aiming for. Is she trying to make a point > about looking beyond appearances, or is she making a demonstration of > what pent-up bitterness and resentment can do to a man? Or is it > rather that one should not put absolute faith in a mentor, but rather > seek for one's own answers and be true to the heart as well as the > mind? Theme is indeed a dangerous thing to argue from, and the best one can do is speculate. It is perhaps best to remember that JKR has said that this is a "moral story" but NOT a "story about morals." As such, it is perhaps too much to expect that themes will always be clear or even consistent. And that is, after all, very true to life. To take just one possible set of themes, the idea of trusting those wiser than you and viewing things logically is at times at odds with the idea of making your own decisions about moral issues and deciding your reactions based on the evidence that you have available (as opposed to the evidence someone ELSE says they have). This is a messy, difficult, cross-cutting quandary that we run into in life all the time. It shouldn't be surprising that it is a messy situation in the HP saga, and that sometimes Harry is better off to trust DD and sometimes he's better off to forget DD and go with his own beliefs and evaluations. Such is, after all, in some ways the essence of growing up -- learning that sometimes your parental figures are right, and sometimes they are wrong, sometimes you should listen to them, and sometimes you should not, sometimes you should accept their judgment, and sometimes you should reject their judgment in favor of your own. It is quite possible we will never get a clear statement of theme from JKR on these issues - perhaps for instance Harry will be proven right about Snape but wrong about Slytherin house in general. Who knows? Lupinlore From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sat Jul 23 23:03:29 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:03:29 +0100 Subject: Parallels Message-ID: <42E2CCC1.3050003@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134454 I've just had a strange thought. Given how annoyed Rowling clearly was when people tried to make predictions based on Star Wars, she must have been really peeved when the last movie came out. Just think about it - not only the stupid cow decides to play Meropa and "looses the will to live" during childbirth, but it's also all based on a stupid self-fulfilling prophecy. Irene From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:52:25 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:52:25 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134455 It's been a week since the release of HBP, of course, and I haven't been sacked at work yet, which means I haven't been able to keep up with all the discussion! But I've very much enjoyed following what I could of it, and thought I'd throw in my own bit, for what it may be worth. I'm taking a deep breath, and very cautiously dipping the tips of my toes into the Snape and Dumbledore issue - shallow end, of course. I'll state at the outset that I try to stick firmly to the text itself. This is because I am a pedant. ;) Julia: <> I am one of a handful of grown-up readers who has not trusted Snape since the end of PoA. Admittedly my own biases factor in - I'm a bit of an animal lover, and Snape lost much of my confidence when he threatened to poison Trevor the toad (regardless of whether he actually intended tdo so). Kathryn Jones: <> Snape does indeed try to save Harry's life in PS/SS, and there's quite a decent case to be made here. But as always, there are any number of good cases to be made, not all of them mutually exclusive. My impression has become that Snape's attempts to save Harry's life has been somewhat overstated in fanon. In PoA, he lurks under an invisibility cloak and does nothing for some time, including at points where Harry, Ron and Hermione appear to be in considerable danger. His subsequent actions reveal more interest in Black's and Lupin's persecution than in the children's welfare. In PS/SS, his actions were of course necessary and proper, but earn him little credit for bravery per se: they involve sitting in a spectator's box and muttering. inkling108: <> Well-stated. (Many, many other remarks on this issue have been well-stated too, but I don't think anyone would enjoy it if I quoted them all.) My feeling has always been that while while any few of Snape's apparently bad actions could be explained as misinterpretations or spying-related necessities, or any several as the mark of someone mean-spirited but basically good, taken as a set, they require some extremely gymnastic interpretive contortions to come out as the actions of a "white hat," many of which contortions the text does not support or even suggest. In a nutshell: while nobody "good" is perfect, neither does anybody "good" seem likely to go out of his way to bully students, *and* try to have Harry (and Ron) expelled (and kept from Hogwarts' protections), *and* mollycoddle the pureblood prejudices of Death Eaters' children (see his allowing Draco to call Hermione a mudblood),*and* try to send an innocent man to Azkaban and then rant about losing the Order of Merlin, *and* let Peter Pettigrew scamper off to Lord Thingie without apparent remorse, *and* reveal Lupin's secret to the whole school without permission, *and* scorn Dumbledore's belief that Harry's name was put in the Goblet of Fire by someone wishing him harm, *and* fail to help Igor Karkaroff (an unabmiguous *ex-* Death Eater, albeit a nasty piece of work), *and* belittle Hermione's real and obvious need for medical attention in GoF, *and* impede Harry's efforts to bring word about Crouch Sr, *and* bait Sirius throughout OotP, *and* make a "fiasco," in Dumbledore's words, of Occlumency (Harry was no help, admittedly, but in the end, Snape is the grown-up here), *and* help open his mind to Voldemort (I buy Harry's interpretation here, but I acknowledge that it isn't failsafe by any means), *and* wait several hours to notify the Order of Harry's disappearance (they go into the forest before dinner and don't arrive at the Ministry until after dark - at least 10 p.m. in London in late June - and it's at least another hour or so before the Order shows up there), *and* belittle Tonks in a dangerous situation when she's plainly under more emotional weight than she can manage, *and* ignore Harry's injuries, *and* possibly - though by no means certainly; this is speculative on my part - mislead his DADA class (Harry is quite good at handling Dementors, and his impression that Snape's advice for fighting them is misguided gives me pause),*and* drag Draco, who's in over his head, away from those who couldprotect him best after he's failed his mission from Voldemort... itdoesn't add up, in my book. A few selections from that list, maybe; all of them, no. Then, of course, we come to the big question of Dumbledore's death. Once again, I'm speculating here, and may well be rather embarassed once book 7 comes along, but here goes for the time being. Fridwulfa: <> Yes, definitely possible, but I remain disinclined to believe it is probable. (Admittedly, I thought Sirius was on the safe list going into OotP, too.) There's a lot factoring in here, of course. One of these factors, for me, is again the issue of gymnastics. If Snape is going to be of any use to the Order, someone would have been informed of such an arrangement. At the end of HBP it's apparent that no one has been - in fact, not one person could venture a reason for trusting Snape other than Dumbledore's opinion - which he had never disclosed to any of them and none of them considered sound once they had heard it. Furthermore, Dumbledore would have had to know, and to tell Snape, that he would have to drink a potion to get to the horcrux (unlikely - he knew there would be barriers, but did not seem to have any idea of what specific barriers would have been chosen), know what the potion was, and know that no antidote existed - that it wouldn't even be worth trying to shove a bezoar down his throat. Further, his condition improves considerably between Hogsmeade and his death - he's rational and reasonably energetic. We can't know that he wouldn't have deteriorated again, of course, but the text gives us no cause to suppose so, either. Dumbledore's interactions with Harry also suggest that, while he knows he might die at any time, he does not expect it. He clearly enough plans to tell Harry more than ends up being possible - he does want to tell him about the loss of the hand (Snape knows, but Harry does not, that a duel with Voldemort occurred), for example. I would venture to guess that there was further information about Voldemort and horcruxes that he wanted to impart - even if he wanted to tell Harry everything, he could hardly tell it all in one sitting. As for why he might beg: "Please don't kill me" (residual, instinctive fear of death); "Please don't do this to Draco," "Please don't make me wrong for trusting you all these years," "Please give my time to put my affairs in order," "Please don't do this to yourself," "Please don't do this before I impart something else (that only became clear in the cave?) to Harry/the Order," "Please don't do this to the school"... > Pastafor5: > > The one key moment that makes me think (sadly) that Snape did this > out of loyalty to Voldemort rather than Dumbledore is when Draco > tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to his mother. > Dumbledore says it isn't true and that Snape just made that up to > get information from him. Kel: <
> The most telling elemement of this for me is that by making off with Draco, Snape is almost certainly depriving him of his best chance of safety and salvation. Security at Hogwarts is imperfect, but it's safer than anywhere else, and I can't imagine that McGonagall would refuse Draco sanctuary from the Death Eaters. Voldemort won't be happy with Draco, won't be nice to him, and whatever else Snape may be, he's not so stupid as to think he alone can provide better protection than all the Hogwarts staff. Karfaroff, an older and more experienced wizard than Snape, was wondered at for surviving a year, rather than the expected few days. In other words: Snape doesn't mean Draco well. It seems as close as can be to certain that Dumbledore wanted to save Draco from becoming a Death Eater; it doesn't necessarily seem that this is Snape's intent. In terms of his motivations for becoming a Death Eater in the first place, I can't really find one that both excuses Snape and corresponds to canon. We don't know what Snape knew when he joined, but we do know that for some time before Voldemort's first fall, they murdered people because of the circumstance of their birth or for disagreeing with them, and tortured and killed Muggles for fun. Snape fit in well enough to earn Voldemort's trust, not something easily managed from the sidelines. I also find Dumbledore's explanation of his trust in Snape disturbing in the extreme: he didn't know the information would lead Voldemort (whose true nature was universally apparent by the first half of 1980, the time of the first Sybilline oracle) to *the Potters,* he's sorry that *James and Lily* are dead. Even if that's true - which I'm not inclined to believe - it indicates that what Snape was sorry about was the choice of target. Not about the idea of killing a baby (or more than one baby; Voldemort might have gone after Neville if he'd been able), or that he might just set the Death Eaters on very pregnant witches who were in no condition to run and duck efficiently (running and ducking appear to be a major elements of wizarding defensive strategy). Just that it was the Potters who died rather than the Longbottoms. The worst childhood in the world doesn't excuse that. And I'm with quigonginger on this one: > ...there are so many unanswered questions that it seems to me > that an analysis of abused!Snape is way over what we see in canon> I would also add that at least some of my sympathy for Pensieve-scene!Snape evaporated at the revelation that he had invented the hex in question - how do we suppose it became well- known to the school, and known to the Marauders at all, as Lupin says? (I'm also much more inclined to credit the hypothesis that Snape was the one, specific Death Eater puppeteering the Robertses through the air at the World Cup.) The Marauders were unquestionably in the wrong here, and I'll make no excuses for them, but it does put a bit of a damper on victim!Snape. So does the fact that the whole incident started when Snape hurled what we now know was some form of Sectusempra at James for calling him Snivellus. James was indeed a "right berk," in Lupin's words, but that level of curse is rather an overreaction to a teasing nickname. He's alone in this scene, and accuses James of only fighting four-on-one, but let's not forget his "gang of Slytherins" and his apparent preference for fighting one-on-one only when the other party is disarmed. As for Snape's future, and the implications for book 7 and the series as a whole... where to begin? There are a million possible places, but I'll go with inkling108 here: Excellent points here! I have one extremely tiny caveat, regarding Rowling's exact words, which are from a 1999 interview with the "The Connection," WBUR radio. <> (transcript at http://www.quick-quote-quill.org) The water here gets rather murky. It strikes me that there are a few spiritual/religious questions here in particular.. The Harry Potter books are not "Christian stories" in the same way as the Narnia books. Rowling is not out to convert anyone, or to say that her religion (Christianity) is better than animism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Taoism, or anything else. Neither am I, and I'll add another caveat: I'm Catholic myself (firmly in the Hans Kung camp and definitely out of the Josef Ratzinger one), while Rowling is a Calvinist (although she doesn't give the impression of being a completely orthodox one), so our perspectives may differ significantly. All that aside, Rowling has indicated that her perspective in this area does have some bearing on her ideas and plans, so here goes. Snape poses many questions regarding redemption, not all of them answerable. (And, of course, not all of them will be addressed as such, or even necessarily implied directly, in the text.) We've often though of him as a bit of a Saul figure, but it now seems that he may be more along the lines of Judas. That said, I don't see Dumbledore as a Christ figure - that distinction goes to Lily Potter, if anyone. Dumbledore forgave Snape for his actions as a Death Eater - but how much of that forgiveness was his to offer? He can forgive Snape for his role of depriving him of two valuable Order members, just as Harry can forgive him for his role in making him an orphan. But the only people who can forgive him for his role in James' and Lily's deaths are James and Lily, and they're in no position to extend it on this side of the Veil. Then there's the nature of redemption. It's given to those who need it, not necessarily those who deserve it or who have earned it. But what if someone in need of redemption refuses to accept it, again and again? Where does that leave any of the characters - in other words, where does it leave us? Once again, no answers here - just food for thought. -hekatesheadband (off to make herself a nice cup of tea, if she can find her mystic kettle of Nackledirk) From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sat Jul 23 23:09:40 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:09:40 -0000 Subject: Blades and snakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > One thing i haven't seen mentioned at all is the fact that Voldemort's > grandfather and uncle both carry a wand AND a knife. Goderic Griffindor > owned a sword (which Harry used), but other than that the only weapon > we've seen other wizards use is a wand..snip...but in both cases you have blades and snakes together. snip > Maybe wands just don't work on serpents for some reason. Maybe Goderic > Griffindor was a dragon slayer. > > snipsnapsnurr AmanitaMuscaria now - Well, Harry doesn't have his wand in his showdown with the Basilisk, Tom has it. But the whole scene is of Harry being given the tools he needs when he asks for them - he shows faith in DD, and Fawkes brings the sorting hat. He asks the sorting hat for help, and it gives him the sword. Faced with Tom holding Harry's wand, Fawkes gives Harry the diary. So perhaps Gryffindor knew very well what would slay a Basilisk, and a wand wasn't it. Maybe the point is, as has been shown in every book, that Harry has to ASK. Well spotted. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From editor at texas.net Sat Jul 23 23:23:08 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:23:08 -0500 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories Message-ID: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134457 I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew, Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him. I grant you, death is a bit of an obstacle to communication. But given all that we now know of Pensieves, I think I can see an explanation for why Dumbledore did not tell him (or anyone else, evidently) and the way for Dumbledore to give this last bit of information to Harry. Here's my summation of Pensieve knowledge (forgive the caps, please--I cannot underline or otherwise set off for ease of reading): (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon supports this: Dumbledore says in GoF: (p. 597) [Dumbledore is speaking]: "'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.' ... "'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure.'" To me, this sounds like it's *removal* of a memory or thought, rather than a *copy.* This is borne out by Snape's apparently "defensive" use of the Pensieve in OoP, removing memories so Harry cannot accidentally "see" them, and by the terms Dumbledore uses in reference to other people's memories in HBP: (p. 363) Dumbledore, speaking of Morfin's memory, uses the term "collect." (pp. 489-491) Harry speaking to Slughorn, uses the term "give." This does not sound like a copy. This sounds like you take the actual item out of the person's head. The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know it anymore.* (2) MEMORIES SHOW THE TRUTH (AS IN, THE REALITY OF WHAT HAPPENED). And unless it's done very skillfully, a viewer can tell when a memory has been tampered with (HBP, p. 371). This is borne out by info in Part 3 of JKR's interview, up on the Leaky Cauldron (quoted below): MA: ..."Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?" JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ... JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere. (3) MEMORIES CAN BE STORED. The memories that Dumbledore and Harry view are in bottles; Harry collects Slughorn's memory in a bottle. Dumbledore has evidently been collecting memories for years, keeping them, bringing them out when needed, and examining them for clues. (4) MEMORIES CAN OUTLIVE THEIR OWNERS. The first memory that Dumbledore and Harry view in HBP belongs to Bob Ogden, who has died (p. 198). So what does this mean? Two things. ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts Snape is that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I believe he *doesn't know,* because he has taken that memory out of his head, as insurance, because he knew it was quite likely he'd be facing Voldemort. I think, to be safe, Dumbledore would allow himself to remember that he trusts Snape, and that he has a good reason--but not the reason itself. Because if Voldemort managed to "see" the first two things, he would think only that Snape was damn good at fooling Dumbledore, which would *strengthen* Snape's position with Voldemort. But if Voldemort ever managed to see the "ironclad" reason *why* Dumbledore trusted Snape? That would doom Snape. So that memory is not in Dumbledore's head. He does not know the actual reason at the moment--and won't, until he puts the memory back--and so cannot tell it to Harry. I think this explains the following scene (p. 549, HBP) [Harry is speaking]: "'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --' ... "'...Professor...how can you be *sure* Snape's on our side?' "Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he were trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.'" Maybe Dumbledore wasn't making up his mind; maybe he didn't have that information to give. The timeframe of this exchange is that Dumbledore has called Harry to his office to go try to find and destroy a Horcrux. This is a time I would expect Dumbledore to have removed any memories that could endanger the cause. So he told Harry all he honestly could at that moment--and what he could tell him matched what Snape has told Voldemort and the DEs: Snape spun a tale of remorse and Dumbledore trusts him completely. TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle somewhere that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I predict the existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it will show him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he cannot disbelieve. When he sees it; what he has already done based on incomplete knowledge and belief of Snape's treachery; who may also see it--these are variables that have great plot and character potential. Thoughts? ~Amandageist From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sat Jul 23 23:39:57 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:39:57 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows was Re: JKR Interview on Mugglenet In-Reply-To: <005d01c58f71$295aa550$5cc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Rachel said: > > page 591-592 > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can possibly > imagine." > Evidently they have done this before. I believe that someone we think > to be dead is going to immerge to help harry. Perhaps Regulus???" > > > That is NOT in my book....the line "He cannot kill you if you are already > dead" is not in the Canadian Edition... snip AmanitaMuscaria now - nor is it in the UK edition. But there is a vary interesting line from DD a little before : ..said Malfoy. 'But she said you were just going for a drink, you'd be back ...' 'Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back ... after a fashion,' mumbled Dumbledore What are we to take from that? DD is very precise, usually, about what he says. So is he actually not alive at this point? snipsomemore > then DG said: > > "I doubt it - because an Unbreakable Vow *kills*, and that strikes me > as being a bit of Dark magic. > > The UV is something you do to someone you don't trust." > AmanitaMuscaria now: Where do we have evidence that the Unbreakable Vow kills? > Don't forget, Fred and George were trying to get Ron to do one when he was > five (F&G about 7). Where would the Weasley children have learned a dark > magic thing like this if it IS dark magic. Arthur went Molly-ish on them, > not because it was dark magic, but because if the vow was broken, the > breaker would die. > > CathyD > DuffyPoo AmanitaMuscaria again - Hey? Where's that? We know Fred and George turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider, but where does it say they were trying to get Ron to do an Unbreakable Vow? Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 23:49:36 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050723234936.11873.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134459 Rachel said: "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. " Cathy: That is NOT in my book....the line "He cannot kill you if you are already dead" is not in the Canadian Edition... AmanitaMuscaria - nor is it in the UK edition. Juli: Could someone please tell me what it says in the UK and Canadian edition?? AmanitaMuscaria: Where do we have evidence that the Unbreakable Vow kills? Juli: Ron explains it to Harry: "Well, you can't break an Unbreakable ow. . . ." "I'd worked that much out for myself, funnily enough. What happens if you break it, then?" "You die," said Ron simply. "Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five. I nearly did too, I was holding hands with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental," said Ron, with a reminiscent gleam in his eyes. " (Ch 16) AmanitaMuscaria again - Hey? Where's that? We know Fred and George turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider, but where does it say they were trying to get Ron to do an Unbreakable Vow? Juli: See previous answer... Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:03:12 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:03:12 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: <20050723222053.89292.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134460 Juli wrote: "Actually, current psychiatric theories, say you are not born with any "disease" or personality. Your genes may pre-dispose you to a certain type of personality, but in no way is it definitive. Psychiatric diseases are multi-factorials, they result from the combination of genetics, up-raising, culture, choices, and experiences. Say both your parents have OCD (obsessive - compulsive disorder), then you have the OCD genes, but it does not mean you will have OCD. The same goes with any psychopathic personality." Del replies: I know that. But IMO Tom Riddle fits the bill completely: bad genes, bad inborn dispositions, no compensating upraising or culture and way too many opportunities to express his bad tendencies. According to some specialists, that's the perfect combination of factors to create the ultimate psychopath. Juli wrote: "He was raised in an orphanage, a place without much love, but still, an OK environment, AFAIK he wasn't molested, abused, or mistreated." Del replies: He was missing the most important ingredient though: love. Not being abused is not enough. It's the famous case of the Romanian orphanages (if it's true), where the kids were fed and clothed, but some of them let themselves die out of sheer lack of love. Tom never had the love of a mother, or of any family, and nobody in the orphanage seems to have given him real, deep love. Add that to the fact that he himself was screwed-up enough to not have a natural instinct to love, and it becomes clear that Tom NEVER had a meaningful relationship with ANYONE. I think that's way enough to produce a highly abnormal, maybe even sociopathic, personality, even in a very young kid. Juli wrote: "He did all the mistreating, he bullied kids, he enjoyed making them hurt. It is not normal, he was told (by Mrs Cole) that it was wrong, then by Dumbledore." Del replies: Yes, but he had no reason to care what anyone told him. Remember how Harry completely ignored what Snape told him about going to Hogsmeade in PoA, but he felt horribly bad when Lupin told him pretty much the same thing? That's because Harry had a positive relationship with Lupin that he didn't have with Snape. Since Tom had NO positive relationship with anyone, nothing anyone said mattered to him. Juli wrote: "When he started at Hogwarts he had a fresh start, but he chose the path he had already taken. The path of evil." Del replies: You see it as a fresh start. I highly doubt Tom saw it that way. I think for him it was just another step on his way. In order for it to be a fresh start, Tom would have needed to figure out that his previous path was wrong, and that he needed to change. But Tom did not see things that way at all. Juli wrote: "Remember Harry was raised in much worse conditions than Tom (IMO), and he's not a psychotic killer, with delusions to rule the world. He's an OK kid." Del replies: 1. Harry doesn't come from a genetically highly deficient background. 2. Harry most probably didn't have a screwed-up personality to start with. 3. Most importantly, Harry had LOVE, lots of love, in his first 15 months, to support him. Those first months are the time when a baby learns to bond with his mother. If a baby can't bond at that time, the risks are higher that it will have personality problems later, and much higher-than-normal problems in bonding with, having compassion for, and simply loving other people. Harry had this bonding experience, Tom didn't. That's a HUGE difference between the two boys. Juli wrote: "Tom, from a young age started making his own choices, he was very independent, he trusted no-one, he was pretty self-sufficient." Del replies: Hum, yes, and actually those things are *warning* signs IMO, signs that something might not be quite right with the kid, that he is having psychological difficulties. Not being able to trust adults or comrades is often a huge warning sign that something is seriously amiss in RL kids. Juli wrote: "He chose to take those two kids to the cave, he chose to kill a rabbit..." Del replies: We don't know what happened in the cave, and we have no proof that Tom killed the rabbit intentionally. Those two incidents could have been nothing more than accidental magic brought on by extreme emotions. And even if he chose to do those things, so what? Since he lacks any compassion for other people, he wouldn't see the wrong in doing what he did to them. Juli wrote: "He made many choices that eventually led him to the evil person he's become. Could he have changed? Yes, definitively. Think of Draco: he was born in a pure-blooded family, very racist, feeling superior, he's father's a bad guy, his mother's no angel either, still, he's not evil. He has made his choices: he chose to lower his wand and not to kill Dumbledore. He chose. He chose to do whatever it took to protect his family." Del replies: Once again, you're comparing two VERY different kids. Draco had LOVE in his life. We know now for sure that his mother loves him very very much. And we can infer from the way he reacts to people insulting his mother that he has a bond with her. So there's no comparing Tom and Draco, for me. They are simply not in the same category. Juli wrote: "So, yes Tom chose to become evil, every step he took took him deeper into the darkness, he knew what he was doing, but it didn't stop him, he became what he wanted." Del replies: Oddly enough, I agree. Tom always wanted to become LV, somehow. I agree with that. But I personally think that he NEVER saw ANYTHING else as a valid alternative. He never felt love (either given or received), nor compassion, nor even sympathy. He never knew in his heart what friendship is like. So all those things that seem worth it to us, like family and other meaningful relationships, didn't matter AT ALL to him. They didn't attract him in the least. They were pointless, useless, of no value whatsoever, to him. He also never felt like he was a part of any society, he always felt he was different, special, apart. So working on making society a better place obviously would never have appealed to him. No, the only thing that was EVER important to LV was himself, and nobody and nothing ever made him think that maybe something else might be more important. I don't believe he ever CHOSE to be so self-centered. That's just the way he was born, and nothing in his upbringing ever countered that. He never learned to relate to anyone else, to bond with anyone else. Love and compassion are not things that he rejects: they are things that *he doesn't know*, as the Prophecy says. And where there is no knowledge, there can't be choices. To put it in an extreme way: LV never chose to be Evil, it's just that he never knew Good, he was never presented with Love in a way that could reach through his inborn barriers. He did not reject Good and Love, he simply never felt them, never understood them. Just my opinion, of course. Del From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 00:11:52 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:11:52 -0000 Subject: How did Draco get the hand of glory? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134461 I'm very confused about this. Draco wanted his father to buy him the hand of glory, but Lucius categorically refused. Now, all of a sudden, not only does Draco possess this article but everyone (well, Ron anyway) seems to know he possesses it. I have a vague memory of JKR saying in an interview something about Draco's hand of glory, and being surprised at the time, since I'm sure it isnt mentioned in any of the previous books that he had actually acquired it. Is this a slip on Jo's part, or is it just my bad memory? From a1batross at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 22:50:02 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:50:02 -0000 Subject: Marietta Edgecomb Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134462 Anybody have any idea if there's a particular meaning to Marietta Edgecomb's name or character? I have to admit that after OotP I had thought her race was run, an incidental character with a somewhat funny comeuppance. Her re-appearance in HBP could have just been a little chuckle at her expense, or confirmation of Hermione's exceptional powers. But on the other hand if I wanted to turn somebody into a thoroughly annoyed enemy, sticking them with a face full of zits reading "SNEAK" for more than a year is a good way to accomplish it. So I'm wondering if she, like Lockhart, might make a surprising reappearance in book 7. I haven't found any canon information either way to suggest her origins or possible fate. However, while digging round QQQ, I came across this: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0999-familyeducation-abel.htm "In Marietta, Georgia, an elementary school principal has removed the Potter series from a fifth grade classroom, questioning their appropriateness." Rowling doesn't strike me as quite so vindictive, but does anyone know if there is a connection to the events in Marietta, Georgia? http://albatross.org/images/20050716Potter/00047.jpg (Other pix at http://albatross.org/journal/archives/000952.html) Thanks for any thoughts on Marietta's canon origins, or whether we might see her again... -Bob Alberti http://albatross.org From Nanagose at aol.com Sat Jul 23 23:46:00 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:46:00 EDT Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK Message-ID: <6a.59f74f56.301430b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134463 >>Julie writes: >>Possibility 2: Lily did have to perform some ancient magic for the rebound to occur. This >>protecting magic/charm may have been "sealed" by her choosing to die by AK. The >>rebound on the caster (LV) was because of the magic, not just by her choice. May or >>may not establish a horcrux. (Horcrux being the scar because no one else killed by >>AK had a scar...it was surviving the AK and being marked by a curse.) Christina: Originally, I thought the same thing. However, in the MuggleNet/LC interview of JKR, the following question was asked (they're talking about Lily's standing in front of Harry): MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry? JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen. This, in my mind, beats down anything that says that Lily was trying to save Harry's life in any magical way. She stood in front of him because she was a desperate mother, not because she had performed a charm to protect him. I personally think this is sort of fishy. We *know* that Harry is the only person to have *ever* survived AK, but if the protection really is due to his mother's offering to die to spare him, wouldn't you think that a similar scenario would have occurred already at some other point in time? Is it really reasonable for us to believe that Lily is the first mother to ever have looked at a killer and said, "Please...take me instead"? Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:35:25 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:35:25 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134464 Milz wrote: > Ooops, I never meant to imply that Rowling chalks off Trelawney's alcoholism to the prophecy, but rather it explains why she has taken to the bottle. Trelawney stashing empty sherry bottles and stumbling around Hogwarts drunk threw me for a loop when I read it. Rowling explains the MacB witch comparison breifly in the interview and on her website: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm? id=84 "If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made. Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought, while Neville remains the tantalising 'might-have-been'. Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences." It's speculation on my part, but this prophecy-as-catalyst can be the reason why Trelawney has developed a fondness for sherry (and I hope she's drinking a nice fino or manzanilla sherry): she feels responsible/guilty that her prophecy has caused and is causing misery. **Marcela now: This would only apply if Trelawney knew that she'd made two real prophecies. The fact of the matter is that she doesn't remember making any of them. I don't think that we can excuse Trelawney's liking for the bottle to that. Trelawney started smelling like sherry in OoTP, when she was under the pressure of Umbridge's probation time and then got chucked out -but saved by Dumbledore. Harry never smelled any sherry aroung her in PoA and GoF. Then in HBP, we see her continuing with the sherry because she was discontent with Firenze and their sharing the students Divination classes. And finally, perhaps because Dumbledore was not taking heed of her card reading and/or her complaints about Firenze's classes. Ever since OoTP and Umbridge, Trelawney's little world started falling apart... If Hogwarts remains opened in HP7 wiht McGonagall in charge, I can only see McG sparing Trelawney because of Dumbledore's previous attachment to the Divination teacher, not because she'd think that Trelawney was a necessary teacher at Hogwarts. And, to go even further with speculation -or clairvoyance , I'd say that Trelawney's choice of sherry might get upgraded for something a bit heartier than that... Funnily enough, I wonder if Jo will keep her around, this character has surely done some very good predictions so far, :D Marcela From isabellehancock at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 23 23:52:35 2005 From: isabellehancock at optusnet.com.au (izzihancock) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:52:35 -0000 Subject: The Cave and the Tower In-Reply-To: <20050722211824.94929.qmail@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > > > 1. the scene in the cave. DD drinks the liquid and > > starts_ what?? > > Remembering something that is from his life, or > > channeling a memory > > of someone else's?? And what memory is it? > I think the potion brings out your deepest darkest fear and in DDs case I think it relates to Snape. DD was absolutely convinced that Snape had returned to their side - and we never found out the details of this conversation. I'm imagining a scene where Snape comes to DD repentant and to test him, DD makes him relive the demise of Lily and James Potter, linking Snape to the emotions and pain of the moment. All the words would then fit. If DD is now second guessing his judgement, knowing he won't be around to protect Harry, then this would be the defining moment where he decided to put his trust in Snape - where he believed there was true remorse from his erstwhile student. I also think JKR set up the unavoidable death of DD at Snape's hands in the unbreakable vow scene. I think DD knows full well that Snape will never like Harry or help him more than is absolutely necessary, but if Snape is at the heart of the DEs, he can help the OOTP more truly than anyone on the outside. I think Snape wants to end Voldemort's reign of terror - and he thinks his role in achieving that will be far more important than some pathetic, over-confident little under-age wizard. Snape hates Harry - and all he stands for - but he still wants to take out Voldemort. As proven in OOTP and every incompetent, self-interested MoM employee, you can be against Harry and still think you are working against Voldemort. izzihancock From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jul 24 00:39:24 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:39:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The House of Gaunt/The orphanage Message-ID: <198.43679643.30143d3c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134466 In a message dated 7/23/2005 2:21:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wsherratt3338 at rogers.com writes: Their last name is certainly an indication of their physical circumstances, but maybe there's an overtone there of Shakespeare's John of Gaunt - not so much the actual character, but the sense that this is an old, old family, with deep roots in England. ========== Sherrie here: John of Gaunt is not the exclusive property of Master Will - he was a real person, third son of Edward III (after Edward the Black Prince and Lionel). He was the founder of the House of Lancaster, had three wives, the last of whom, Katherine de Roet Swynford, had been his mistress for AGES before he married her (his daughter by his second wife was actually named for his mistress). His son by his first wife, Blanche, eventually became Henry IV. (I think - except for VIII, I get confused on the Henries sometimes...) When I first saw that chapter title, I thought, "Whoa - JKR is tying British royalty into the wizarding world???" Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:40:28 2005 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:40:28 -0000 Subject: HBP: Why I am 98.6% certain that... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134467 A couple of thoughts to expound upon ideas... >From Jim: > This and all the "Snape is actually good" theories depend on a great > many things being predictable and known, actually far more than is > credible. In order for this to have been a plan, then > > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco had been taken into the > Death Eaters and given the task of killing Dumbledore. My thoughts: This is true, but not immediately true. DD may well have found out afterwards from Snape. It's plausible they had a contigency plan, but I'd also like to point out that most of the plans people have come up with are really detailed. I would propose that DD and Snape discussed a scenario along the lines of "if by chance you need to keep your cover and it means my death you may do so, after this point in time." I doubt that DD knew that Draco was a DE at first, but I'm sure he found out quickly (either via Snape or some other person). Jim's next thought: > ** Snape had to know that Narcissa would come see him and ask him to > swear the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore. He further > had to know how that would fit into future events. My next thought: Again, only if you look at this plan as predetermined. I think Snape had no clue about what Narcissa would do. I also am not convinced he knew what he was agreeing to. He made that vow because he felt cornered, I think. He hesitates, after all, before agreeing. You can almost hear him saying to himself "Oh boy, I hope I know what I'm doing here." More fomr Jim: > ** Snape and Dumbledore had to know that Draco wouldn't have the nerve > to go through with it himself, that he wouldn't just bust a magical > cap in Dumbledore the first time he had his back turned. My next thought: Well, frankly I don't think Voldemort thought Draco would go through with it. I think it was a way for him to punish the Malfoys. A kind of fix your father's mistake kind of initiation. I mean, Draco is after all, still just a kid. And a scared one at that. It's easy to talk. It's much harder to actually stand behind those words. Jim's last note: > ** Snape and Dumbledore should have figured out a way to keep Harry > from killing Snape the first time he lays eyes on him after this plan > worked out. My ideas: Not neccessarily. Harry's never liked Snape and DD knew that. I think that DD realizes that nothing he says will convince Harry of any loyalty Snape may or may not have. Snape would have to prove that himself. I'm not convinced that there are many people who trust Snape period. DD withheld a lot of information about Snape, and if we find out more (and I hope we do) it should explain some things. But I think that even DD realized there was nothing he would be able to do or say or show to Harry (or anybody else really -- even Lupin says he took DD at his word) that would convince him that Snape was helping the Order. It all comes down to either you trust DD and what he knows (but may not have shared) or you don't. The trust in Snape will come from that. Personally, I think that Snape is being a true Slytherin. Is he evil? I doubt it. DD said himself life is about choices. I see Snape's choices as about saving his own hide and forget everybody else. But I don't think he's evil. ~Christy From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:44:14 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:44:14 -0000 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134468 Naturally everyone has their favorite characters in the HP series. We've spent so much time talking about Snape lately that many of the other characters only get touched on briefly. So I thought I'd ask the following question: In general, how did HBP effect who your favorite characters were and how? (feel free to add your least favorites as well!) I'll start with Snape, to get him over with. He was a slimy git before HBP, and I loved him. He's a slimier git after HBP, and I still love him. I love evil characters, so I can accept him as evil or redeemed, it matters not to me. As JKR said, he's a gift of a character, remarkably complex and yet still seemingly so shallow. He's a paradox, someone who has saved Harry's life repeatedly, but now we know he was the one who initially put Harry's life into danger. Ginny Weasley - I've always been on the "Ginny Rocks" side of the argument, and this book just cemented my place. For putting Hermione in her place, Ginny definitely earns 2 thumbs up from me. I saw someone somewhere (not sure if it was here or elsewhere) say that Ginny seems to be a perfect compliment to Harry, that's even more apparent in this book (to me at least). Luna Lovegood - Easily one of my favorite new characters last book, she's gaining ground again. I love her commentary at the Quidditch match. And her comments to Harry through the book about how terribly she's treated just tug at my heartstrings. Something, or someone, good needs to happen to Luna in book 7. The way she just takes everything that everyone throws out at her and accepts it is just so amazing. If it wasn't for Ginny, I'd be all for putting Harry with Luna. Albus Dumbledore - How utterly cool is AD? I didn't like how he shut Harry out in OOtP, but I loved that he finally came to his senses in HBP (though I thought it was a little fast, but I suppose some developments need to happen off-book). I can't wait until book 7, when we hopefully find out more about him. Draco Malfoy - I never liked him, but in this book I finally started to see some promise. I'm not of the opinion that he'll get redeemed, but I finally feel like he's a well-rounded character now. Up until HBP, he felt too one-dimensional to me. Hagrid - hate him, hate him, hate him. I hate him a little less now though, possibly because I don't see his lousy teaching. Hagrid's like an overgrown child, and at his size, with his knowledge, that's very dangerous. I can't shake the feeling that he'll let some valuable information go to the other side - again. Hermione Granger - honestly I don't like her much, she's nosy, bossy, and a know-it-all. I was very happy that this time she did NOT know it all. In the end, Harry was right for once. Let's hope it took her down a peg or two! The Weasley Family - I decided to bundle the rest of the Weasley's all in one. I love them all (with the exception of Percy who still needs his come-uppance). I'd love for the next series of books JKR writes to be entirely about the Weasleys. Fred and George are definitely my favorites, they're so funny and talented. It's a shame they got so few O.W.L.s Last but not least, Harry Potter - I was very happy to see that Harry is completely different than OOtP. I really started to dislike Harry in that book. Even if the change in character was too fast and takes Harry completely out-of-character, I'm pleased. Harry was an annoying prat in OOtP. If he had still been annoying, I would have had to start rooting for LV to win. There were a lot of characters that I was disappointed not to see more of, or learn more about. I really missed Mad-Eye Moody. And I love Lucius Malfoy, I was so hoping he'd get out of Azkaban somehow and play a part in HBP. For the record, I don't love the evil characters because some part of me wants to redeem the bad boys. I love the evil characters because they are so deliciously and completely evil, without being cartoon character evil (with the possible exception of LV). They are extremely well written and for the most part I want them to get what's coming to them (Malfoy I'd like to see wiggle out of it, simply because that's what rich people do and it's the most believable end result if someone evil ends up coming out of it okay). Feel free to list characters I've forgotten, it's so hard to think of everyone that people really like. -Tammy, who had a lot of blonde moments and had to look up character name spellings online *sigh* From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:44:54 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:44:54 -0000 Subject: Assorted comments and questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134469 "darqali" wrote: > > Another question [perhaps answered in the past, please give me a > reference if there is a discussion, as I couldn't find it} > > Why could Harry not initially see Thestrals? [Winged 'horses' which > pulled the Hogworts carriages; and visible only to those who have > seen death ... or murder?] He was present when LV murdered his > parents, after all! O.K., he probably didn't see his father die; as > Lily was trying to escape while James held LV off ... but Lily was > shielding Harry with her body when she died, so Harry must have seen > the event. **Marcela now: Check Jo's website, she answered to this in the FAQs section. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=21 But basicaly and briefly, 1) because Harry was too young when his parents died; and 2) because at the end of GoF Harry had not internalized the death of Cedric, yet, and that she didn't want to start with a complex new thread only to leave it as a cliff-hanger for book five. Marcela From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Jul 24 00:46:17 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:46:17 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: (Snip most part of an excellent post) > I don't believe he ever CHOSE to be so self-centered. That's just the > way he was born, and nothing in his upbringing ever countered that. He > never learned to relate to anyone else, to bond with anyone else. Love > and compassion are not things that he rejects: they are things that > *he doesn't know*, as the Prophecy says. And where there is no > knowledge, there can't be choices. > > To put it in an extreme way: LV never chose to be Evil, it's just that > he never knew Good, he was never presented with Love in a way that > could reach through his inborn barriers. He did not reject Good and > Love, he simply never felt them, never understood them. > > Just my opinion, of course. > > Del I agree with what you say; Tom's behaviour and evolution have probably much to do with his original loneliness,and he's probably paying for his family's traditions, and for the Pureblood ideology. However, I have a little issue with the last part. Maybe Tom wasn't given love when he was in his first years, and I acknowledge this is something very important in the character's psychology. However, he met dumbledore, he was his student. Dumbledore is the kind of teacher that loves his students, and since their first meeting, he tried to correct young Tom's bad tendencies. Maybe Dumbledore's love wasn't enough; maybe Tom thought his first "lesson" was nothing but one more humiliation;I don't know. However, Tom had examples of Good and of Love; he had a conscience: he could choose them instead of becoming Lord Voldemort. Or was he lost from the start? Do our first months determinate our life so definitely that it becomes impossible to change it regarding some aspects? Are we given so little choice? I'm unable to answer. I reckon there are many things to say concerning that topic, that it has to do with both psychology and philosophy. And I'd be grateful if you, or someone else, could give me the beginning of an answer. Amicalement, Iris From kjones at telus.net Sun Jul 24 00:53:22 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:53:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would convince Harry/canned memories In-Reply-To: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@texas.net> References: <000901c58fdf$573817a0$8158aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <42E2E682.3050200@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134471 Amanda Geist wrote: > I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could > trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the > reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew, > Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is > only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry > understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him. > > I grant you, death is a bit of an obstacle to communication. But given all > that we now know of Pensieves, I think I can see an explanation for why > Dumbledore did not tell him (or anyone else, evidently) and the way for > Dumbledore to give this last bit of information to Harry. > > Here's my summation of Pensieve knowledge (forgive the caps, please--I > cannot underline or otherwise set off for ease of reading): > > (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon > supports this: > > Dumbledore says in GoF: (p. 597) [Dumbledore is speaking]: > > "'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply > have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.' ... > "'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use > the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours > them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure.'" > > To me, this sounds like it's *removal* of a memory or thought, rather than a > *copy.* Kathy writes: I think that this also supports my theory that the only way Snape has been able to convince Voldemort that he is loyal is with the removal of all memories that might indicate otherwise. He did not fool Dumbledore and he did not fool Voldemort. Dumbledore did. KJ Amanda > The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know > it anymore.* Kathy writes: Which would also explain several things about Snape's inability to grow up and get on with things. If anything good has been stored for safekeeping, what is left. KJ > JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because > Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want > to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it > together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. > ... > JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it? > Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, > so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't > notice the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all > of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know > you remember are all in there somewhere. Amanda Kathy writes: Which means too that if Harry gets a chance to relive certain memories he will know that they are real from his own experience. Harry also has seen real and "cobbled up". KJ > > (3) MEMORIES CAN BE STORED. The memories that Dumbledore and Harry view are > in bottles; Harry collects Slughorn's memory in a bottle. Dumbledore has > evidently been collecting memories for years, keeping them, bringing them > out when needed, and examining them for clues. Amanda Kathy writes: Perhaps even in his own head for safe-keeping. KJ snip > ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts Snape is > that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I believe he *doesn't > know,* because he has taken that memory out of his head, as insurance, > because he knew it was quite likely he'd be facing Voldemort. I think, to be > safe, Dumbledore would allow himself to remember that he trusts Snape, and > that he has a good reason--but not the reason itself. Because if Voldemort > managed to "see" the first two things, he would think only that Snape was > damn good at fooling Dumbledore, which would *strengthen* Snape's position > with Voldemort. But if Voldemort ever managed to see the "ironclad" reason > *why* Dumbledore trusted Snape? That would doom Snape. > > So that memory is not in Dumbledore's head. He does not know the actual > reason at the moment--and won't, until he puts the memory back--and so > cannot tell it to Harry. I think this explains the following scene (p. 549, > HBP) [Harry is speaking]: > > "'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized > how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be > the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --' ... > "'...Professor...how can you be *sure* Snape's on our side?' > "Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he were > trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I > trust Severus Snape completely.'" Amanda Kathy writes: I think he does know, he just can not afford to jeopardize his plans as yet by telling Harry due to the possibility of Voldemort taking a peek. Things are very close to the edge of completion at the moment. Dumbledore is taking an enormous risk even telling Harry about the Horcruxes. He has told Harry not one thing that could jeopardize Snape. KJ snip > > TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle somewhere > that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I predict the > existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it will show > him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he cannot > disbelieve. > > When he sees it; what he has already done based on incomplete knowledge and > belief of Snape's treachery; who may also see it--these are variables that > have great plot and character potential. > > Thoughts? > > ~Amandageist Kathy writes: I agree completely. They will always hate each other, but I am sure they will have to work together. KJ From adairfletch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:44:19 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:44:19 -0000 Subject: Assorted comments and questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134472 darqali wrote: > It is clear that the characters of HP are under mistaken > impressions on several fronts: > > For one, they think that Slythern House is the *only* source of > Dark Wizards [this is mentioned several times]. Enter Peter > Pettigrew, aka Wormtail, from Gryffindor. Hiya. I don't have much time to post a lot this weekend (I have two exams Monday - summer semester is almost over!!!), so I've avoided commenting on the very complex, opinion-focused threads, but this one I can handle easily enough. First question: I don't think they think Slytherin to be the only source. Harry and crew aren't that naive. But they do (rightly) assume that MOST future Dark Wizards wind up in Slytherin. I finished reading (like most of us) the third part of the Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interview this morning - there is an interesting bit about houses in there. But I think it wrong to believe Harry, of all people, would forget about Wormtail. However, I understand the question, in the sense that most of the focus does go to Slytherin, but again, as JKR says in the interview, that's because we typically see inside Slytherin from the POV of Death Eaters' children. darqali again: > Then there is the notion the Sorting Hat doesn't make mistakes. [It > may *debate*, such as over putting HP in Slythern vs Gryffindor or > Herminoe in Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw ...] But the signature trait of > Gryffindor is courage. How did Pettigrew get sorted into > Gryffindor? His cowardace, self-serving nature, and willingness to > sell out friends speaks of a Slythern character, not Gryffindor. Again, this was answered in the same interview. The Sorting Hat, according to JKR, DOES NOT make mistakes. Peter does have courage, just not the kind I think any of us would brag about - he searches out and befriends the most powerful. For protection, yes, but I also believe he enjoys the reflected glory, and it takes a certain amount of bravery to go against the entire Wizarding World and singularly help out a fetal Voldemort. And Hermione and Harry, though possessing traits of other houses (as I'm sure everyone does), truly belong in Gryffindor. And I don't think the Hat would ever have sorted Harry according to Harry's own choice had the Hat not also agreed that Harry, at least in part, possessed traits belonging to Gryffindor House. But either way, Harry couldn't be in Slytherin, because he CHOSE not to be - something I think the Hat also knows, and so sorted accordingly. darqali again: > [For that matter, how did half-bloods Tom Riddle, and Snape, get > sorted into Slytherin if they are not Purebloods ??? ... since pure > blood was a trait house founder S. Slythern demanded; to the point > this issue became the source of the disagreement over which he left > the school .... HP would belong in Slytherin over them, for though > his mother was Muggle-born *it remains she was a witch*; so Harry's > parents were a witch and a wizard, as he told Malfoy at their first > meeting .... making him in one sense more 'purebred' than either Tom > Riddle or Snape, who each had a true Muggle, non-magic parent.] I don't think the Hat takes physical characterizations into account when Sorting. Because believe me, if anyone has belonged in Slytherin it was Tom Riddle as Slytherin's last heir, even though he was a half-blood. And Harry is considered a half-blood by Wizarding standards, we've been told that by JKR. I believe Sorting relies entirely upon a person's personality, abilities, proclivities, and above all, choices. darqali again: > I took the scene on the train where Draco discovers and overcomes > Harry as indication that Draco's task was *not* to kill Harry [which I had rather assumed *was* the task when Snape discusses the > plot with Draco's mother} and think that was why the scene had to > be included; but didn't like the way it made Harry look; > necessary, tho', to make us wonder what it was Draco was ordered > to do [because he could have finished Harry off right there, if > *that* had been his task]. Well, I don't think anyone particularly enjoyed that scene, but of course, we know by the end that Malfoy was sent to kill DD. darqali again: > Questions: Why does Sybil Trewlawny think students don't know about > the Room of Requirement? > > She has been hiding her empty cooking sherry bottles there for some > time. This is the incarnation of the Room that Draco is hiding the > damaged Vanishing Cabinet in, when she encounters him there by > accident; the same incarnation of the room Harry finds when he "needs > to find a place to hide his book" [The HBP's Potions Book he needs to > hide from Snape]. When Harry enters this room it is the size of a > cathedral and heaped with things hidden .... including fanged > frizbees; who did Sybil T think was hiding all those things, if not > students? Could she be *that* near-sighted ??? This is Trelawney we're talking about. But seriously, I doubt the Room is common knowledge, and it certainly wouldn't be advertised. Trelawney also doesn't seem to be the type to be in touch with the student body, so I also doubt she really knows if most of the students know about the Room. And those artifacts probably belong to teachers and students, maybe even houseelves, dating back to who knows how long, so I'm sure they've amassed over the years. The Room is like so many other things in Hogwarts - hidden secrets waiting to be discovered by the inquisitive student, but not purposely kept under lock and key. Otherwise, a headmaster would long ago have gotten rid of the room (unless, like Peeves, you're just stuck with it). darqali again: > Another question [perhaps answered in the past, please give me a > reference if there is a discussion, as I couldn't find it} > > Why could Harry not initially see Thestrals? [Winged 'horses' which > pulled the Hogworts carriages; and visible only to those who have > seen death ... or murder?] He was present when LV murdered his > parents, after all! O.K., he probably didn't see his father die; as > Lily was trying to escape while James held LV off ... but Lily was > shielding Harry with her body when she died, so Harry must have seen > the event. > > If one postulates that one must see death when *old enough to > understand it* then I could understand why Harry couldn't see them at > first. > > But then, after Cedric was killed in Harry's presence, the first time > the Thestral-drawn carriages enter the story again is when Harry > leaves Hogworts at the close of that year [ending of GOF; the > carriages take the students back to Hogsmede train station]. Why > couldn't Harry see them *then*? As it is told, he first saw them the > following fall, when they picked the students from the trains to take > them to the school .... why the delay? Ah, this topic again. Yeah, darqali, you've missed some old interviews and numerous threads, but no harm done. According to Rowling: Harry did not see his parents die, he was in a basinet, so the first person he ever saw die was Cedric. Before one can see the Threstrals, the death has to 'sink' in, so at the end of Book 4, Harry was still coping with what had happened, and wasn't yet able to see the Thestrals, hence their appearance at the beginning of OOTP. (I think this is just Jo's excuse for not having to introduce them at the end of Book 4, but hey, it works). Hope that clears stuff up, I'm sure some others will also chip in. Adair From prep0strus at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 01:05:37 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:05:37 -0000 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134473 "Tammy" wrote: > In general, how did HBP effect who your favorite characters were > and how? (feel free to add your least favorites as well!) Good question! In general, I think Ginny came off great, Dumbledore and Snape both had an amazing book that will only really be understood after the final book, and we got a little more of Lupin. But my actual FAVORITE (admitedly minor) character, didn't even get an appearance - Lee Jordan! 5 books of backin' up the Weasely twins, smart talking at Quidditch, and then he's gone, without even a bit of exposition to tell how he's doing. :( I also was really disappointed in poor old Ron - there has to be more to him, and I thought this was his book. Those chess skills should extrapolate into something else, shouldn't they? Ron's a great character, but I was hoping this was the book that JKR would give him a little more. I hope I'm not disappointed in him by the end. I feel that most of our characters were put on pause in this book, waiting. Neville did less than he did in previous books, Luna barely got to grow, and if anybody else was hoping, like I was, that the DA would become a school-age Order of the Phoenix, with individual members coming into their own, you were, like, I was, disappointed. McGonagal, who really shone in 5, once again faded to the back burner. And, I agree, where's Moody? I know that 7th book has to be about Harry, and about Snape, and about Voldemort and saving the world and Ron/Hermione consumating their rather tepid relationship... but I hope the legions of minor characters that JKR has invested her time and our emotions in get their payoff as well. If Dumbledore's right, and it's about love, it can't just be about 'The Chosen One' loving enough for everyone - it has to be everyone loving him, and they all should have a part to play. I hope they do. Hm, I don't think I precisely answered the question, but that's my take on the characters in Book 6 anyway. ~Prep0strus From deepam at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 00:56:12 2005 From: deepam at yahoo.com (deepam) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:56:12 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134474 Going over the part 3 of the interview JK gave to mugglenet.com and the leaky cauldron (she gave a hint that it is possible to find at least one horcrux), and re-reading the last few chapters, I have a theory regarding the horcrux: 1. Dumbledore is the last heir of Gryffindor. 2. The potion in the green basin inside the cave was THE horcrux. 3. The drinker will not die, he will become possessed by the piece of soul of Voldemort in there. 4. Hence the potion does not "kill", as dumbledore points out to Harry. 5. Dumbledore's reaction while drinking the potion would be natural as Voldemort's memories and actions become clearer the more of the potion he drank. His final words on drinking the last of the potion "KILL ME!" shows how horrified he was to be sharing his body with such a soul. 6. So Snape killing Dumbledore (a pre-planned event most likely) really kills the Horcrux. Dumbledore dies too, but he will be leaving enough hints and help around for Harry to manage in Book 7. 7. Somehow, Dumbledore trusts only Snape with the story about Horcruxes. Not even McGonagall and other Order members seem to know about this. Also Snape does not ever (and never has) physically injured Harry, however much he may hate him. This tells us that he will continue to "protect" Harry till his purpose is fulfilled. Comments anyone? regards -Deepa From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 01:37:54 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:37:54 -0000 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories In-Reply-To: <42E2E682.3050200@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134475 Amanda wrote : I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* thereason Dumbledore trusted Snape? Schumar's thoughts: Perhaps Dumbledore had made a solemn vow to protect Snape and keep this secret not necessarily in the way of an Unbreakable Vow but more of the kind of oath all members of the Order have to take. I also think that the oath that Order members have to take would also be sufficient of Dumbledore to trust Snape does anyone remember where Dumbledore reminds Harry of this oath? I also wonder if Harry KNEW why Dumbledore trusted Snape, somehow Voldemort might be able to get this information by Legilimency. If no one knows for sure why Dumbledore trusts Snape, then Snape is safe from being found out to really be on the side of the Order by Voldemort. Another thought perhaps Hagrid is a Secret Keeper to this oath... something tells me that he might know more than the other Order members do, but then again he may be the most loyal to Dumbledore's word. The theory that this memory may have been siphoned like the ones that go into the pensieves is also a brilliant theory. I think it was also very telling that even McGonagall, who of course was deputy Headmistress, did not even know the reason why Snape was trusted by Dumbledore. If Dumbledore had died in a way where Snape wasn't involved, would McGonagall have kept him on staff just because Dumbledore trusted him without knowing why? I must say, I am now half expecting Harry to find a Pensieve in Godric's Hollow or at least some jarred (stored, not necessarily vibrating) memories that he would have to take to a pensieve that will show EXACTLY what happened when Voldemort killed the Potters, and exactly why Severus Snape CAN be trusted. I'm expecting these reasons to also show how Snape is helping Harry as well as doing other good that Dumbledore ultimately wanted, such as Saving Draco and protecting a remorseful and grateful Narcissa. I think that it is also very important in regards to Snape another theme I see come up often there is more than just Good and Evil Good people can do very bad things, and Evil people can have some good in them. Like Kathy writes: They (Harry and Snape) will always hate each other, but I am sure they will have to work together. Anyone else? Marianne S. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:07:28 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:07:28 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134476 hekatesheadband wrote: > The most telling elemement of this for me is that by making off with > Draco, Snape is almost certainly depriving him of his best chance of > safety and salvation. Security at Hogwarts is imperfect, but it's > safer than anywhere else, and I can't imagine that McGonagall would > refuse Draco sanctuary from the Death Eaters. Voldemort won't be > happy with Draco, won't be nice to him, and whatever else Snape may > be, he's not so stupid as to think he alone can provide better > protection than all the Hogwarts staff. Karfaroff, an older and more > experienced wizard than Snape, was wondered at for surviving a year, > rather than the expected few days. In other words: Snape doesn't > mean Draco well. It seems as close as can be to certain that > Dumbledore wanted to save Draco from becoming a Death Eater; it > doesn't necessarily seem that this is Snape's intent. zgirnius: Snape's motivations vis-a-vis Draco and Narcissa have been giving me a headache. My confusion arises out of the events in Chapter 2, specifically the Unbreakable Vow Snape makes to Cissy. Let's assume Snape is a loyal DE. We can even assume if you will that LV has told him the plan, and does intend Snape to carry it out eventually. Why does Snape do it? Part 3 (the only part he himself seems to find problematic, the "twitch") would not be a problem in this case, since he will have to do it anyway. But promising 1 and 2 seems unnecessary and risky. If Draco does something foolish or dangerous in the process, this could require Snape to put himself in danger to fix it, or to risk his cover before he is ready with his own attempt on DD. There is one reason I could come up with which works regardless of Snape's ultimate loyalties to DD or LV. That would be a personal motivation, acting out of pity/compassion/affection for Cissy. While this scene is the nicest I can ever recall Snape being to anyone, it seems a stretch. But your post has me thinking this is inconsistent with his later behavior to Draco as explained above. Though I suppose Snape might worry Draco would end in Azkaban..but even then, he'd be alive... Any suggestions? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 02:07:53 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:07:53 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deepam" wrote: > Going over the part 3 of the interview JK gave to mugglenet.com > and the leaky cauldron (she gave a hint that it is possible > to find at least one horcrux), and re-reading the last few chapters, > I have a theory regarding the horcrux: > > 1. Dumbledore is the last heir of Gryffindor. > 2. The potion in the green basin inside the cave was THE horcrux. > 3. The drinker will not die, he will become possessed by the piece of > soul of Voldemort in there. [SNIP more very interesting details!] I agree with your theory - I wrote something a bit similar in an earlier post, #134298. I am still puzzling over the message in the locket, however. I think that Dumbledore himself inserted that message in the locket, after he took it from Harry in the cave. For one thing, there's something odd about the way it's presented - it doesn't LOOK like any other regular message, and I looked up all the notes I could find in the book. The rest of are written in normal letter style, with indented paragraphs, and the writer's name is lined up underneath the indent in every case. But in this note, every line is centered, including the R.A.B. on the bottom line. It doesn't look like a note at all - it looks like an inscription. That's the way one would present an inscription on a tombstone, for example; the 'U-No-Poo' sign in the Weasley's joke shop window is set out this way, also. This is why I don't think that R.A.B. are the initials of a name - I think the letters stand for a phrase or saying, like "R.I.P." on a gravestone. I was noticing Dickensian touches in this book, and this little thing reminds me of something from "Little Dorrit". The hero of the book returns home to his mother after his father's death abroad, and he shows her his father's watch. Inside the case, he'd found a little piece of paper, with the initials 'D.N.F.' written on it. He thought that perhaps she would know who that referred to. She becomes very upset when she sees it, and says the letter stand for "Do Not Forget" - the message is a reminder about a painful incident from the past, which we later learn about. I think that R.A.B. might turn out to be something similar. Wanda From scb1066 at adelphia.net Sun Jul 24 02:04:56 2005 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:04:56 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134478 houyhnhnm wrote: > I love the title--Spinner's End. Why "Spinner's End", why > not "Spinner's Row". The spinner of lies, for all his virtuosity, > has met his end. He is caught in his own web of deceit. I think > it shows "loyal death eater" is NOT one of the possible > explanations for Snape's behavior. Because what takes place that > day is not the end for him if he is, just another opportunity. I love the title, too. I had a different interpretation of it. I took it to mean that, in this chapter, we see the end of Snape's lies. It finally shows us the truth: Snape is ESE and here is the real explanation of his ambiguous actions in the first five books. He continues his double agent role through the year and pushes it as far as he can. At the Astronomy Tower, he can go no further and finally makes a choice. He chooses to side with LV. Only at the end does Dumbledore realizes the mistake he made in trusting Snape and pleads with Snape, not for his life, but for him not to betray the Order. I'd love to be wrong, mostly because I dont want Dumbledore to have been so terribly wrong. But, JKR (in this book and in the post publication interview) kept hammering away at how even Dumbledore makes mistakes and is too trusting, etc. etc. All this plus her Snape comments in the interviews and her previous statement that Books 6 and 7 were time for answers not more questions leads me to the ESE!Snape conclusion. That said, I will desperately cling, at least for a while, to Snape's "until you learn to close your mind" advice as being so wholly inconsistent with the above that it rips apart the foundation of the hyper-elegant house of cards that is my conclusion. littlegreenpartyhats quite fun to wear From azriona at juno.com Sun Jul 24 02:12:52 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:12:52 -0000 Subject: Who/What is RAB (was Re: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134479 Wanda said: I don't think that R.A.B. are the initials of a > name - I think the letters stand for a phrase or saying, like "R.I.P." > on a gravestone. That's actually a really good theory, and one I like a lot better than thinking it was Regulus Black who left the note. Regulus was too easy an answer. That the letters stand not for a name but a message makes a lot of sense. But what would the message *be*? --azriona From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sun Jul 24 02:16:49 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:16:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] How has HBP effected your favorite characters? Message-ID: <85.2c31fdd8.30145411@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134480 In a message dated 7/23/2005 8:44:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, elsyee_h at yahoo.com writes: So I thought I'd ask the following question: In general, how did HBP effect who your favorite characters were and how? (feel free to add your least favorites as well!) Great question! Without a doubt my favorite characters are the Weasley twins. I wish we'd seen more of them in HBP, and I was a bit miffed that we didn't get to see him in action as members of the Order. I was however thrilled to see them doing so well, and putting their own spin to what Harry had taught them with shield charms. They really are powerful wizards and it shows in HBP. I'd like to think they've taught Hermione a valuable lesson about how great things don't necessarily have to come from books. I love that Harry, Ron, and Hermione had such a sense of purpose at the end. Each of them would have a role to play in defeating Voldemort, and seemed ready to face the challenge. I really do think of HBP as Harry's coming of age but really that applies to all three of them. A character that has intrigued me since the last book is Bellatrix Lestrange. I liked seeing her as a sister and aunt. It gave her much more depth. Actually the entire Malfoy clan gets more interesting with every book. In their own way they are as loyal to one another as Harry's friends are to him. Narcissa's actions in this book touched me, and I was not expecting that from her or her sister. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:17:44 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:17:44 -0000 Subject: What the Heck is ESE??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134481 Eggplant asked the question many of us have been wondering: > I keep hearing that and it embarrasses me to say this, but will > somebody please take pity on me and explain what ESE means. KathyK responds: Eggplant, my friend, this is no cause for embarassment. We use an assortment of acronyms and short-hands on this list. It's hard to keep track! ESE stands for Ever So Evil. So when we say Snape is ESE, or characterize him as ESE!Snape, we are saying he's a baddie, a Lord Voldemort supporter. But it's not merely that he's a bad guy. Because Lord Voldemort is Evil. Bellatrix is Evil. But they're not generally characterized with ESE. Because we *know* they're the bad guys. Our ESE characters are secretly working for the Wrong Side. ESE! Snape fooled Dumbledore, and has now gone back to LV. He may have been evil all along, or he may have been loyal up until Book Six. This is, of course, assuming he's Ever So Evil at all. I think nearly every one of our good guys has found him or herself under the ESE microscope at one time or another. There are a couple of places you can check if you see an unfamiliar acronym or shorthand on-list. Inish Alley, in the Database section, lists many HPFGU acronyms, what they mean, which characters it refers to, and where to find related messages. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=28 You can also check out for other HP shorthands: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HPfGU_A bbreviations.txt KathyK From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:21:26 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724022126.14126.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134482 (Snip My-Juli and Del's post) Del wrote: To put it in an extreme way: LV never chose to be Evil, it's just that he never knew Good, he was never presented with Love in a way that could reach through his inborn barriers. He did not reject Good and Love, he simply never felt them, never understood them. Juli again: I understand your point Del, I really do, but I have to disagree. I believe Tom did have a choice, whether he realized it or not. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ;) His raison dtre is to rule the world, to be immortal, to be powerful, invincible. There must have been a moment in his life when he set these goals, when he decided that was what he was going to do, when he decided to use his magical powers to gain more power, it was a turning point in his life, the moment he became truly selfish. And selfishness and egocentrism leads to evil. I think of him like Hitler, he wanted to make the world according to his desires, and hed do whatever it takes to do it, not caring who got hurt on the way. About this last paragraph, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Since Tom didn't know love and goodness, he couldn't adopt them?. He must have known good people (Dumbledore for one), but he decided on a different path, IMO. It's like the old saying "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone", so if Tom doesn't know Good, then he does not know Evil? I don't know, Tom's psych is probably every Psychiatrist and Psychologist worst nightmare... Am I making any sense at all? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:21:10 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:21:10 -0000 Subject: Snape, the Facts and nothing but the Facts. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134483 Sorry to go along with the same old problem, but I can't seem to stop wondering. So here's what we know. 1. We know Snape did make the Unbreakable vow to help and protect Draco and to complete the job if Draco couldn't do it. We don't know for sure if Snape knew exactly what the job was that Draco was assigned to do. Maybe Snape was pretending and didn't know he was promising to AK DD. 2. We know Harry does hear Snape tell Draco he made the Unbreakable vow to Draco's mom to protect Draco. No mention is made of the AK DD part. 3. When Harry tells DD, DD says "you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet". This could mean Snape told DD everything and Snape AKing DD was planned by both of them as a contingency plan, or it could mean Snape only told the part about protecting Draco. 4. On the tower: Draco says DD didn't know who was behind the Opal necklace and the poisoned mead. DD says " "As a matter of fact I did," said Dumbledore. "I was sure it was you." "Why didn't you stop me, then?" Malfor demanded. "I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders---" "He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother ---" "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but---" Now, was DD lying or did he not know what Snape had really promised Draco's mother? No one else was on the tower then except Draco, DD and invisible Harry. What did Snape tell DD? I was watching POA today and got thinking. Didn't Snape know about Pettigrew and that Sirius was innocent. Why was he so keen on taking Sirius immediately to the dementors? Did he hate Sirius so much he would commit murder or actually worse than murder on an innocent man? If Snape was a reformed man, as DD believed, but didn't know about Pettigrew, then Snape was maybe just so full of hatred towards Sirius that he couldn't or wouldn't listen to anyone. He wanted to believe what was in keeping with his hatred of Sirius. I can't help but feel that if Snape is a good guy, there has to be some clues somewhere to let us know. The only things I can think of that Snape did good can be explained or have been explained by his pretence at being a spy for DD when he was really a spy for LV. Is there any evidence of Snape doing something good in and of itself, that couldn't be a ruse to fool DD or to cover Snape's own backside. We have 6 books of clues here don't we? We should be able to figure this out shouldn't we? Let's put on our Sherlock Holmes gear and get cracking. Bonnie From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 02:35:00 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:35:00 -0000 Subject: The House of Gaunt In-Reply-To: <1247341800.20050723102708@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134484 Dave wrote: >>-- In the whole scene Morphin speaks only Parseltongue. Why? Is that all he *can* speak?<< HunterGreen: I got the feeling that they spoke parseltongue to each other partly because they *could* and partly because of the tie to Slytherin, which was the *only* thing their family had to be proud of. Morfin must be able to speak English because he told the Ministry Officials about killing the Riddles, and I don't know why he wouldn't know English if Merope does. Dave: >>-- How are the Gaunts able to talk to each other in Parseltongue? In _CoS_ when Harry tries to speak it to anything other than a snake, he can't do it.<< HunterGreen: It could be, as someone suggested, that its because Harry never spent any time practising Parseltongue. My initial thought was that perhaps its because Harry wasn't born with the gift but was rather *given* it (literally) by Voldemort, so it doesn't come as easily to him. Or maybe its easier when you are talking to someone who speaks it or to a snake rather than a faucet (after all, he had no problems talking to the snake in the dueling club or the one at the Zoo in PS/SS). Dave: >>-- If the Gaunts are all Parselmouths, why does Diary!Riddle tell Harry that the two of them are the only Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since Slytherin himself? Were the Gaunts homeschooled?<< HunterGreen: >From their reaction to the ministry official and their strange behavior, I'd guess neither of the children have been to Hogwarts. I doubt they'd want to associate themselves with muggle-borns and half- bloods. As for homeschooled, that's up for debate. I don't think they've been schooled much at all (do we know if they are even literate?). Since we're on the subject of Parseltongue-speech, I have a question. Did Dumbledore know what they were saying? He knew it was Parseltongue, since he mentioned Harry understanding it, but did he? If he did, how did he? And if he didn't, why didn't he ask Harry what they were saying? When I first read that scene I was surprised when Dumbledore *didn't* ask Harry to translate, I was thinking that was why he was showing it to Harry. Because if he didn't understand them, wouldn't he be a little curious, and take advantage of the conveinent, rare Parseltongue who just happens to be the person he wanted to show the memory to anyway? I know that Dumbledore speaks a lot of languages, but I got the impression that Parseltongue is a gift (or ability, if you will), not something you can learn. Harry can't even distinguish it from regular conversation. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:44:15 2005 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:44:15 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134485 Marcela wrote: > Funnily enough, I wonder if Jo will keep her around, this character > has surely done some very good predictions so far, :D anthyroserain: Something that amuses me is that even though we're told Trelawney is bad at divination, all evidence seems to indicate she is one hell of a seer. Not only are there her two big, dramatic prophecies (one of which is surely the greatest in the wizarding world for some time), there are her minor predictions, like the reappearance of the Grim in POA and her cartomancy in HBP. Sure, she misreads the omens, but the omens show up for her nonetheless. Yet she gets NO respect... poor woman, no wonder she's taken to drink! From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sun Jul 24 02:31:54 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:31:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Of course Snape is culpable! (Was Re: Snape culpable) Message-ID: <1e.49e153db.3014579a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134486 In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:54:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, juli17 at aol.com writes: Julie says: Look at is this way. Is there anyone here that thinks Snape *isn't* culpable of something--of a good many things in fact? Hands? Anyone? Didn't think so. OF COURSE Snape is culpable! (So is Dumbledore, Harry, and everyone else in the books. We are all culpable for our mistakes and bad actions). Snape is culpable for his actions against the Mauraders as a student, (as they are culpable for their actions against him), for joinng the DEs and performing whatever actions he did as such, for telling Voldy the prophecy, and certainly for verbally abusing Neville and Harry (whatever his motives there), etc. That's never been in doubt. The whole focus with Snape has *always* been about his past, and his culpability. Can he redeem himself for that dark past? Does he want to redeem himself? Has he in fact been atoning for his past throughout the books (as Dumbledore certainly seems to believe), by aiding the Order in whatever way Dumbledore sees fit--from protecting Harry, to spying on Voldemort, to perhaps delivering a deliberate death blow to Dumbledore? Very possibly, and in my opinion, quite probably. I think JKR used the word "culpable" in a very broad manner in her interview, simply to draw a distinction between Snape ahd Voldemort. Voldemort can't necessarily be held culpable for his actions (though he should pay for them because he was never loved (moreover, he's a sociopath who really doesn't understand or care about right or wrong). Snape--like ALL of us who are not sociopathic and do know what it means to love and hurt--can and should be held culpable for his actions, past and present. Whether Snape turns out to be good or ESE, I don't think that's ever been in doubt, to Dumbledore or to us. Cassie replies: I agree with Julie. It kind of brings to mind the old saying, "It is better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all." Regardless of who had [mutual] feelings for Snape or how Snape lost them, JKR is telling us Snape has felt the pain of losing a loved one and therefore understands what that feelings like. My theory has always been that Snape was in love with someone or had someone who was in love with him. Mother...lover...doesn't matter. Then when he lost that person, or some other event occurred dealing with that person, he forced himself to stop loving. I really don't think he was being noble, though. Remember in OotP in the Occlumency chapter when he talks about being weak and "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves"? I think he saw love as something that made him weaker. So I think maybe he became less empathetic towards others' feelings to the point where he became apathetic. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JodyE50 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 02:21:13 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:21:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] What would convince Harry/canned memories Message-ID: <1d9.40ed795f.30145519@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134487 Amandageist, that is very interesting. I truly hope that something like that happens in book 7. DD may even have left Harry that bottle in his will. I have been wondering something about pensieves. If there is more than one memory floating around in a pensieve, how does one "choose" which one to visit? The reason I ask is part of the whole "Is Snape really evil?" debate. In OOTP, when Snape is teaching Harry occlemency (or sabotaging his efforts to learn it) he is careful to hide away the memories he doesn't want Harry to see, in case Harry should be able to legilimance. When he is called out, Harry takes a peak into Snape's memories, and sees the scene of James tormenting Harry. However, is this the only memory Snape has stored away? Is that the worst thing he has to hide? Imagine if Harry had peeked into that pensieve and seen a memory of Snape pledging allegiance to LV, or doing something that directly contradicted his work for the Order of the Phoenix. No wonder Snape was so upset that Harry spied on him. At the time it just seemed like Snape was humiliated by the memory that Harry had seen, and that's why he was so upset. But, then again, how did he know which memory Harry had seen, unless he had removed only one? Of course if Snape is not really evil, he would have nothing to fear from his memories and wouldn't bother to hide them from Harry, except for the ones he finds personally embarrassing, of course. And so the debate continues... Jody [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 02:47:27 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:47:27 -0000 Subject: Who/What is RAB (was Re: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > > That's actually a really good theory, and one I like a lot better than > thinking it was Regulus Black who left the note. Regulus was too easy > an answer. That the letters stand not for a name but a message makes a > lot of sense. > > But what would the message *be*? > Ah, well, that's the 10,000 Galleon question, isn't it? It could be English or Latin - a common expression, a spell, a quote... But one thing I think is that as it was addressed to LV, it's something LV would immediately recognize. The writer was not trying to be mysterious - this isn't like Sybil Trelawney's convoluted prophecy. He was sending a very direct message, and wanted to be understood, so I think that whatever this stands for, it's something Voldemort will find familiar. Wanda From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 04:06:32 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:06:32 -0000 Subject: Unbreakable Vow (Snape and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134489 "oaksong" wrote: >Is there a possibility that Snape is also under an Unbreakable Vow >to protect Harry? dg responded: > I doubt it - because an Unbreakable Vow *kills*, and that strikes > me as being a bit of Dark magic. > The UV is something you do to someone you don't trust. Brief Chronicles chimed in: > in Chapter 2, Snape did show an understanding of the vow that > seemed above Bellatrix's understanding (instructing her on how >close she needed to be, etc.). zgirnius now: I myself really like the idea that Snape took a UV with Dumbledore. I wondred about a previous vow myself when Snape was explaining to Bella how to do it. I do not believe this is a bit of Dark Magic, as young Fred and George apparently knew how to do this as children (we learn they almost got baby Ron to take one...) The Weasley household does not strike me as a place where kids would come across Dark Magic spells. I also agree, though, that this is not Dumbledore's style. My take on it is that Dumbledore did not trust Snape when Snape came to him with the whole prophecy/remorse story. If this story is to be believed, Snape was feeling very remorseful about his actions, and when DD told him he could not trust Snape, and would not let Snape work with him against Voldemort, Snape may have offered to take the vow. I think Dumbledore would view it differently if it were voluntary, it seems a reasonable way to try to demonstrate one's seriousness in such a situation. This of course would mean there is a third person who knows about the UV (who would have had to play the same role as Bella played in Snape and Cissy's UV). My two best guesses for these hypothetical folks might be McGonagall or Hagrid. Both seemed especially confident in Dumbledore's judgement regarding Snape. By the end of Book 6, they may not have spoken to anyone about it yet...think about it, if Dumbledore had no plan to be killed by Snape, OR, if he did not confide this plan to the third UV person, that person must be rather confused right now. (Note that a Vow to protect Harry would in no way prevent Snape from murdering DD...so while the vow might put Snape on the "good side", he could still have done something evil (murder of DD)). Also, if Snape has taken such a vow, all three parties would clearly have agreed never to speak of it, since even the rumor of such a thing would be extremely dangerous to Snape. So the hypothetical UV person, even if they have decided Snape DID murder DD, might still consider protecting Snape's deep cover-since Snape's continued survival in this scenario would seem to suggest that he *is* still working to protect Harry. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 04:56:44 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 04:56:44 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134490 delwynmarch wrote: > And finally my biggest concern: we did > NOT NEED to learn what was in that > chapter!! Why do we need to know ANY > of the things we learn in that chapter? Actually I thought JKR was brilliant the way she did it, I don't know of another writer who could have pulled it off. For 6 books we've seen Snape do extremely nasty things and for 6 books we've heard the hero of the books tell us over and over that Snape is Evil, and in chapter 2 we even see Snape making unbreakable vows and conspiring with Death Eaters, and yet JKR manipulates her readers so skillfully that it's still a huge shock when we discover in the end that Harry was absolutely correct and the reason Snape always acted so unpleasantly is because he is indeed evil. Talk about hiding in plain sight! Brilliant! By the way, now we know why Harry did so poorly in Snape's Occlumency lessons in book 5 and why they weakened his defenses rather than strengthen them. Eggplant From darqali at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:48:10 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:48:10 -0000 Subject: thoughts on the character of Tom Riddle - aka LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134491 On the choices of Tom Riddle, a couple of thoughts: Let us not forget that in COS, we learned that Tom Riddle was the person who first opened the Chamber of Secrets [and he also caused Ginny to do so in COS]... and thus, that he was Slythern's heir; and we also learn that Tom Riddle became L.V. Slythern was a co-founder of Hogwarts, and not depicted as entirely *evil* of course .... nor are all in his house evil .... but Slythern is the creator of the Chamber of Secrets, the one who left the Basilisk within; and when Slythern left, he left the sealed Chamber of Secrets with the plan that his true heir would open it, with very nasty consequencs for the Muggle-born students at Hogwarts. In HBP, we finally learn that Tom Riddle is indeed the direct descendant of Slythern: indeed, Slythern's True Heir. This fact may be important to understanding his character, what he *has to do* as part of his destiny. This may be part of why Tom Riddle wanted to return to teach at Hogwarts, too .... as Slythern's heir, he was *supposed to* return to the school, for reasons his ancestor had determined long ago .... which we may not yet fully understand. It may be that much of the next book takes place away from Hogwarts, but not all of it, because LV/Tom Riddles' place in Hogwarts' history as Slythern's heir may not have wholly played out. P.S. Thank you to those who answered my questions. Darqali From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 02:21:46 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:21:46 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134492 Hekatesheadband: > The most telling elemement of this for me is that by making off with > Draco, Snape is almost certainly depriving him of his best chance of > safety and salvation. Security at Hogwarts is imperfect, but it's > safer than anywhere else, and I can't imagine that McGonagall would > refuse Draco sanctuary from the Death Eaters. Voldemort won't be > happy with Draco, won't be nice to him, and whatever else Snape may > be, he's not so stupid as to think he alone can provide better > protection than all the Hogwarts staff. Karfaroff, an older and more > experienced wizard than Snape, was wondered at for surviving a year, > rather than the expected few days. In other words: Snape doesn't > mean Draco well. It seems as close as can be to certain that > Dumbledore wanted to save Draco from becoming a Death Eater; it > doesn't necessarily seem that this is Snape's intent. > You've got a little bit of a logical fallacy going on here. You believe that Snape is returning to Voldemort, which may or may not be true. I don't think he is, but there really isn't any way to prove it either way that I can see. The thing is, you can't use the fact that he is taking Draco with him as additional evidence that Snape is returning to Voldemort. I guess returning to Voldemort with Draco would be more evil than going back without him, but the fact that he is taking Draco with him wherever it is that he is going doesn't make it any more likely that where he is going is back to Voldemort. You are sort of using your conclusion as evidence for itself. Also you say that security is imperfect at Hogwarts, but it is safer than anywhere else. Maybe so. On the other hand, everybody knows where Hogwarts is. Nobody knows where Snape is going. By the way, I never really posted much before the latest book and I have been defending Snape tooth and nail all week and have probably come across as a hard core Snapophile. Actually I can't stand him. There is a lot in the series about the power of love. I think Snape is the counter to that. He represents the power of hate. And it is powerful. I think Snape is motivated entirely by a burning hatred of Voldemort. He will contribute a lot to the final defeat of Voldemort but in the end his own hate and rage will destroy him. I see him as sort of Ahab-like. snipsnapsnurr From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 24 03:20:12 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:20:12 -0000 Subject: Possibilities surrounding Nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape w/ DD) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134493 I've been thinking a lot about NONVERBAL spells lately. On pp. 178-179 (US ed.), we attend the first DADA class of the year, wherein the following occurs: " you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of nonverbal spells. What is the advantage of a nonverbal spell?" Hermione's hand shot into the air. "Very well ? Miss Granger?" "Your adversary has no warning about what kind of magic you're about to perform," said Hermione, "which gives you a split-second advantage." " correct in essentials. Yes, those who progress to using magic without shouting incantations gain an element of surprise in their spell-casting. Not all wizards can do this, of course; it is a question of concentration and mind power which some" ? his gaze lingered maliciously upon Harry once more ? "lack." "You will now divide," Snape went on, "into pairs. One partner will attempt to jinx the other *without speaking.* The other will attempt to repel the jinx *in equal silence.* Carry on." On p. 217, we learn that: "Nonverbal spells were now expected, not only in Defense Against the Dark Arts, but in Charms and Transfiguration, too. Harry frequently looked over at his classmates in the common room or at mealtimes to see them purple in the face and straining as through they had overdosed on U-No-Poo; but he knew that they were really struggling to make spells work without saying incantations aloud." On p. 238, Harry discovers the "Levicorpus (nvbl)" spell in the Half- Blood Prince's potions textbook. Harry assumes that "nvbl" stands for nonverbal and decides to try, without much expectation of success, speaking the spell internally. It works, and Ron is awakened by being jerked upside down "as though an invisible hook had hoisted him up by the ankle." All this emphasis on nonverbal spells has me thinking. Since the textbook was Snape's since Snape is now one of the teachers stressing nonverbal spells I'm assuming managing nonverbal spells is something Snape is fairly good at himself. Now, there are all kinds of questions for me about nonverbal spells in general. Can *any* spell or incantation be successfully performed nonverbally if the caster is talented enough? Are there only certain spells which can be successfully "nonverbalized"? Are there, as the Levicorpus notation might indicate, some spells which are DESIGNED to be accomplished *only* as nonverbal spells? OR is it simply that THE DARKER THE DEED, THE GREATER THE NEED to be able to perform the spell nonverbally? (You know what I mean??) I mean, Harry attempted Levicorpus the first time as a nonverbal spell and succeeded. Would it have worked if he'd spoken the spell aloud? I don't THINK we know the answer to this, do we? All of this raises an even greater question for me, re: Snape on the astronomy tower with DD. And here is that question: IF one is accomplished at performing nonverbal spells, is it possible to perform a nonverbal spell while *simultaneously* speaking the incantation for another spell? IOW, can a highly talented wizard manage to concentrate so hard upon a nonverbal incantation, that he SUCCEEDS at it, even while speaking another spell which does NOT come to fruition? Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was concentrating on? Yes, I know ? the jet of light emanating from Snape's wand *was* green, as one would expect with an AK. But is it possible that he was thinking something else, actually performing something else? Is there any other spell which produces a green jet of light? Not saying I buy this at all. Actually, I'm in the camp which believes Snape was following DD's orders in killing him ? to simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I like the possibility of this. Any thoughts?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From hexicon at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 17:04:04 2005 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:04:04 -0000 Subject: Rumors that Harry was a Dark Wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134494 I have questions about the rumors that Harry was a Dark wizard. I don't recall seeing much discussion of this yet (but I haven't been able to keep up with posts and the search function isn't working well, so bear with me). In HBP Chapter 2, "Spinner's End," Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa that "when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him, rumors that he himself was a great Dark Wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord's attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lord's followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could rally once more." To me, this assertion about the Death Eaters' beliefs was a surprise. I went back through the books thinking of evidence that might back this statement. I'm guessing that Snape isn't simply making this up to throw off the two sisters, because his reference to the belief of "many of the Dark Lord's followers" would be fairly easy for Bellatrix to verify. Is this the reason for Snape's questioning of Harry at the first Potions class (SS ch 8)? (Powdered root of asphodel to infusion of wormwood, where to find a bezoar, monkshood/wolfsbane.) Is he trying to suss out Harry's familiarity with the Dark Arts? (The HPB, of course, adds additional signficance to the bezoar.) I can't seem to find evidence of any other professors testing Harry in this way . . . but what about Ollivander's ambiguous "great things" statement (SS ch 5)? Draco is reasonably friendly to Harry in Madam Malkin's, before he knows who Harry is(SS ch 5), but after a brief attempt to suck up with the "wrong sort" statement in the train, he quickly takes offense and lobs the "go the same way as your parents" comment(SS ch 6). If the Malfoys suspected Harry could be the next Voldemort, it seems like Draco would have been more persistent in trying to establish good relations. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:42:33 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:42:33 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts and speculations after rereading JKR's interview on Leaky and Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134495 Let me put a disclaimer first. This is not a summary or dsicussion of the whole interview. I am just talking about the moments which either interested me or made me happy, that is all :-). By now I am pretty sure everybody knows where this interview is , so I am not even going to put a link. So, first of all Dumbledore. Anybody has any ideas why JKR won't answer the question of what Dumbledore would see in the Mirror of Erised? My only guess is because this is something which WILL happen in the ending? What can this be? I want to say Harry without a scar with Ginny and kids :-) But this is of course wishful thinking on my part. Another thing - she said in the last part of the interview that Dumbledore's family would be profitable line of inquiry. Any ideas why? If Harry is not the Heir of Gryffindor, maybe Dumbledore still was? rmemeber that Fawkes is NOT Hogwarts possession, but Dumbledore's? Sigh... I want the book about Dumbledore too :-) Book 7 possible moments. Hmmm. She confirmed that mirror will show up in book 7. I still want Harry to talk to Sirius . :-) Oh, and Dumbledore's gleam of triumph will be VERY significant in book 7. I am still not sure how. She was silent, I take it we are going back to THAT mysterious room. And I guess she as much as confirmed that Peter's life debt will play a role AND Ginny does not have a life debt to Harry. Hmmm, it IS very interesting. I wonder why not and why exactly the circumstances of James's saving Snape during the infamous Prank is like Harry/Peter, not like Harry/Ginny? Is it because James saved someone whom he truly despised and this counts more? Curious, very curious. Oh, yeah, this brings on another crazy speculation of mine and yes, it is about Prank. :-) Sort of. Look at this quote. "S: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily? JKR: No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl. MA: Snape? JKR: That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly. ES: What about Lupin? JKR: I can answer either one. ES: How about both? One at a time. JKR: I can't answer, can I, really? ES: Can you give us any clue, without misleading us [Emerson misspoke; he meant "without giving too much away"] --? JKR: I've never, to my knowledge, lied when posed a question about the books. To my knowledge. You can imagine, I've now been asked hundreds of questions; it's perfectly possible at some point I misspoke or I gave a misleading answer unintentionally, or I may have answered truthfully at the time and then changed my mind in a subsequent book. That makes me cagey about answering some questions in too much detail because I have to have some leeway to get there and do it my way, but never on a major plot point. Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch." Right, you ask me how is this relevant to Prank? We more or or less agree that Snape MAY have had feelings for Lily, right? In this quote JKR says that Lupin was very fond of Lily and that she was a popular girl and that this is relevant, BUT she also says that Lupin was not competing with James for Lily. I mean, he is a nice guy, right, he would not want to hurt his friend, right? Now, I am very fond of speculation that Snape figured out who Remus was before he went to the Shack, but I could never come up with the reason why Snape may want to hurt Remus or even kill him. Jealousy sounds like a great reason to me. Oh, and I think that when JKR called Snape more culpable than Voldemort she could not have referred to hsi teaching abilities for a simplere ason that she was making a comparison and Tom never taught at Hogwarts :-) That is it for now. JMO, obviously, Alla. From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 03:43:30 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:43:30 -0000 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories In-Reply-To: <1d9.40ed795f.30145519@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134496 Jody wrote: >>In OOTP, when Snape is teaching Harry occlemency (or sabotaging his efforts to learn it) he is careful to hide away the memories he doesn't want Harry to see, in case Harry should be able to legilimance. When he is called out, Harry takes a peak into Snape's memories, and sees the scene of James tormenting Harry. However, is this the only memory Snape has stored away? Is that the worst thing he has to hide?<< HunterGreen: I always assumed that he didn't take the memories out to hide them from Harry, but rather to remove them from his own thoughts so he'd be less bias about Harry, and be better able to objectively teach him. Dumbledore gave the impression in GoF that putting thoughts into the pensieve removed them from your head-- ["This? It is called a Pensieve," said Dumbledore. "I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind." ... "At these times," said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, "I use the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure. It becomes easier to spot patterns and links, you understand, when they are in this form."] --which means, perhaps, that Snape no longer entirely (or at all) remembered the incident with James and Sirius that was in the pensieve. Since his opinion (er, hatred) of James colors his opinion of Harry very greatly, it would help if he forgot some of the more horrible memories of James when he was teaching Occulmency. If you re- read the occulmency lessons (or at least the first one) it appears that Snape becomes a little less nasty after he takes the thoughts from his head. Heck, he even *compliments* Harry. I thought the chance of Harry breaking into Snape's mind was very low. Snape siphoning out embarassing memories would make sense if he were teaching Harry *legimency*. Snape is rather surprised by Harry reversing the spell, and comments specifically on how he didn't tell Harry to do that, and then later reminds Harry to block him with his *mind* which would have no danger of *reversing* the spell. Also, considering that Snape is supposed to be so wonderful at Occulmency himself, why should he be worried about Harry breaking into his thoughts? Harry does, but only once, and only for a few seconds (hardly would have been long enough to see enough of the DADA OWL memory to know what was going on), and one would hope that someone who is supposed to be able to block *Voldemort* would be able to keep a fifteen-year-old out of his head. Looking objectively at it, the thoughts were safer inside Snape's head than they were in the pensieve, at least his mind had a defense. If Snape was so neurotically concerned about Harry somehow accidentally breaking into his thoughts and seeing a few seconds of that memory that he felt the need to take them out of his head before each lesson, then why did he so easily sweep out of the room leaving Harry alone with the pensieve, not once but *twice*? Sure the memory are humiliating, and Snape certainly did not want Harry of all people to see it (though he never caught on that Harry was *horrified* by the memory, even after seeing Harry's memories of being bullied), but that doesn't mean that he put it there to hide it from Harry. Harry thinks that, but how often is he right? (before HBP, that is) -Rebecca / HunterGreen From a1batross at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:23:44 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:23:44 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deepam" wrote: > Going over the part 3 of the interview JK gave to mugglenet.com > and the leaky cauldron (she gave a hint that it is possible > to find at least one horcrux), and re-reading the last few chapters, > I have a theory regarding the horcrux: > > 1. Dumbledore is the last heir of Gryffindor. > 2. The potion in the green basin inside the cave was THE horcrux. I disagree with this clever interpretation. It seems fairly clear that the Horcrux from the basin was removed by Regulus Black and was the "unopenable locket" found by Harry and the Weasleys while cleaning GP. --Bob Alberti From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 03:47:37 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:47:37 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: <6a.59f74f56.301430b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > Christina wrote: > However, in the MuggleNet/LC interview of JKR, the following > question was asked (they're talking about Lily's standing in front > of Harry): > > MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in > front of Harry? > JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it > never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, > therefore, knew that could happen. > > This, in my mind, beats down anything that says that Lily was trying > to save Harry's life in any magical way. She stood in front of him > because she was a desperate mother, not because she had performed a > charm to protect him. I personally think this is sort of fishy. We > *know* that Harry is the only person to have *ever* survived AK, but > if the protection really is due to his mother's offering to die to > spare him, wouldn't you think that a similar scenario would have > occurred already at some other point in time? Is it really > reasonable for us to believe that Lily is the first mother to ever > have looked at a killer and said, "Please...take me instead"? > > Christina Max responds: This has been a "pet peeve" of mine for a number of years. If the ancient magic is automatic, then how can Harry be the only one? Lily can't possibly be the first person to willingly give their life for a loved one in the history of the wizarding world. Melissa, in fact, tries to clarify by asking: "MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way." I'm confused about what she means by "in that particular way". The situation, as far as we know, seems fairly straight forward. Voldemort tells Lily she doesn't need to die. Lily refuses to step away from Harry. Voldemort kills her. How is this situation different from all the other similar cases where the ancient magic was not activated? There must be something unique about the night at Godric's Hollow. If it's not a charm placed on Harry by Lily, then what might it be? What does JKR mean by "that particular way"? Max From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Sat Jul 23 13:26:37 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:26:37 -0000 Subject: my thoughts about H/G ship and Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134499 "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > In Chapter twenty-seven I have read a lot of peoples' opinions on > this. I have not read all of them but I have not read an explanation > for this. I coould be wrong, but did anyone mention why Dumbledore > put a curse on Harry. He's was wearing the cloak he could snuck up > on Draco and stunned him. Why would Dumbledore do that to Harry if > he did not want Harry to ruin the plan? I think DD knew Harry would do the wrong thing, like kill SS or something because, obviously, Harry doesn't know enough, yet. I think either DD and SS had discussed SS AKing DD in any situation that might blow Snape's cover, OR Snape acted to save himself w/o DD's order, but I don't think DD expected it (DE's in the castle) to happen that night. Malfoy hadn't told Snape about the cabinet, so DD didn't know about it either. So, freezing Harry was the best way DD saw at that moment to keep Harry from interfering in what might be a harmful (to the plan or to Harry) way. HogwartsMom From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:37:00 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Of course Snape is culpable! (Was Re: Snape culpable) In-Reply-To: <1e.49e153db.3014579a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050724033700.13942.qmail@web60413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134500 Julie: > I think JKR used the word "culpable" in a very > broad manner > in her interview, simply to draw a distinction > between Snape > ahd Voldemort. Voldemort can't necessarily be held > culpable > for his actions > Snape--like > ALL of us who are not sociopathic and do know what > it means > to love and hurt--can and should be held culpable > for his > actions, past and present. Whether Snape turns out > to be > good or ESE, I don't think that's ever been in > doubt, to Dumbledore > or to us. > Larry: I disagree. It isn't about whether Snape or Voldemort feel remorse for their respective actions. Or whether they feel compassion for their victims. Whether voldemort is a sociopath is also beside the point. One of the main thematic thrusts of the series is that each character is defined by the choices that character makes. I know that I don't want to say that a character such as Voldemort is somehow less culpable, or responsible for his choices because of his, shall we say, rather skewed world view. > > Cassie replies: > > I agree with Julie. It kind of brings to mind the > old saying, "It is better > to have loved and lost then never to have loved at > all." Regardless of who > had [mutual] feelings for Snape or how Snape lost > them, JKR is telling us > Snape has felt the pain of losing a loved one and > therefore understands what > that feelings like. Larry: I think it is the choice and only the choice. Whether a good decision is arrived at through cold, calculating reason, or a deeply heartfelt passion, doesn't really matter. Whether our favorite potions master could identify with the pain he caused is not, at least to me, important. For me it comes down to this, Snape has had, throughout the books, innumerable opportunities to either cause pain, or to not cause pain; he chose to cause pain. So doesn't his culpability stem from his choices, not the feelings, or the lack of feelings that may lie behind those choices? Larry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 03:52:33 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:52:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPS: Who gets who at the end? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134501 pollynesbitt wrote: <<>> > Besides Harry points to something important: maybe Hermione and Ron > together as a couple would only screw up their relationship as friends > and no one wants that! > Ron and Luna. He?s the only one who actually finds her funny. > Harry...don?t know if he?ll survive. either way, superheroes never > really get the girl at the end. They are destined to a life of > solitude. > Did anyone see the Tonks and Lupin thing coming?? That?s weird. Maybe > it?s a foreshadow. JKR is granting Lupin a lovelife before she murders > him in book 7? I've never been an adamant H/Hr shipper. (Actually, I believe I even once made the comment, post CoS, that I didn't really see any ships happening in HP and that R/H was the most likely ship since that seemed to be what JKR was hinting at, but H/G seemed awfully cliched to me, as did H/Hr, though I liked them better, and I just thought JKR wouldn't do either to the reader.) In fact, I thought the idea of D/G was more fun (though about as likely as Snape being a vampire). Post-HBP, I'm still of similar mind. I won't comment any more on H/G, but as far as R/Hr goes, I've always wondered whether they would be good together long-term. I just don't believe that love is enough to sustain all things, so while JKR may be pushing for the R/Hr thing (and she's pretty much sledgehammered it into us), I don't know that I can see them beyond a "high school sweetheart" situation. Beyond that, tearing up the trio seems such a horrible thing now that the war is upon them. There may be chemistry there, but one has to wonder if, after the war is over and everyone is eons older, will the chemistry still exist? Or will the trio remain just friends? Per Ron & Luna, as hilarious as that may be, I really think that, with Hermione around, that ship is less likely than Harry and Luna getting together, though that idea recently really started appealing to me. Considering that there's only one book left and JKR has left significant amounts of R/Hr tension around, it seems unlike that Ron & Luna will ever look at each other in that sort of romantic fashion, though I do buy into the idea that Luna may have [had] a crush on Ron. As for Tonks and Lupin, that definitely came out of nowhere. Even upon the second reading, I wondered if JKR and her anvils were in the same book I was reading. I know that Harry was supposed to be enclosed in his own world, but because of the precedence set by the first few chapters, I didn't expect that Harry's perspective would come back to haunt me by telling me that, because he couldn't pick up on the clues, I had to accept Tonks & Lupin without prior evidence. (Was there prior evidence? Could anyone who did see it coming expound?) However, I'm willing to go on the record as saying that, because Harry was so unaware of, and therefore not close to, Lupin, JKR will not be killing off the last of the good Marauders. Therefore, I think Lupin & Tonks are destined to live happily ever after, unless Tonks dies, because, after all, she did get more notice in this book than Lupin. :) By the way, I'll also go on record as saying that, though Harry will live at the end of Book 7, he'll be quite alone as far as romantic interests. The hero, after all, has a romantic tradition to uphold. ~Ali From o_caipora at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:54:32 2005 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:54:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!!/Nagini as Horcrux/Lily's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134502 "snipsnapsnurr" wrote: > If you are going to go to all that trouble to protect > yourself from death, why would you make a horcrux out of a living > creature that is guaranteed to die? I'm not even convinced that > Nagini really is a horcrux, by the way. We haven't actually been told > that she is. We have just been told that Dumbledore thinks she is. Snakes and immortality go way back. IIRC, Gilgamesh gains the secret of eternal life, but drops it and it's eaten by a snake. The snake's shedding of its skin is a sign of rejuvenation/immortality. And Slytherin's snake lived under Hogwarts, surviving a thousand years: not forever, but certainly a long time. - Caipora From pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au Sat Jul 23 21:24:20 2005 From: pot_of_harry at yahoo.com.au (pot_of_harry) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:24:20 -0000 Subject: Seven horcruxes and no more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134503 CathyD wrote: > What's prevented LV from 'topping them up to six' again? Pot_of_harry Maybe a soul can't be replaced once it's destroyed. I got the impression LV only represents one seventh of his own soul - not that it is any less powerful if he had them all. My question is - will he want any of them back? Are they hidden to protect LV's power? Or are the horcruxes intended to replace someone else's soul (like he tried with Ginny), and if so...why are they hidden? pot_of_harry From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jul 23 21:47:48 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:47:48 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hannah" Hannah: > > Another interesting thing revealed here was Snape's position as > LV's 'favourite, his most trusted advisor.' This too would be hard > to come by anywhere else via Harry. Finally, any and all of the > information given in that scene could be significant in book 7. > Remember, books 6 and 7 are like two parts of the same book. houyhnhnm: We need to remember that Narcissa is usuing flattery to get what she wants and Snape has greater power among the DEs the closer he appears to be to LV. We don't know his real relation to LV from this conversation. From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 03:59:15 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:59:15 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape take the UV in the first place? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134505 I haven't seen this discussed extensively yet (although I admit I have not read all 1,000+ posts per day...). This is my big question: **Why did Snape take the unbreakable vow for Narcissa in the first place?** He didn't have to. He could have said, "Don't be ridiculous, I won't risk my life for your precious son's" or something similarly nasty. It doesn't matter that Bellatrix didn't believe his loyalty to Voldemort, because VOLDEMORT believes it, and regardless of which side Snape is really on, he's the only one who really counts. No further proof was needed. Two possibilities, I guess. Is he still on DD's side? Had they discussed this already, and come to the decision that yes, Snape should take the vow, if asked? How would they know it was coming? And then the question again, WHY should he take it? What's the advantage, other than proving loyalty to Bellatrix, when it doesn't matter what she thinks anyway? Is he on Voldemort's side, and he really did want to kill DD, so of course he would take the vow? I would be really disappointed. Allie From nawyecka at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:55:25 2005 From: nawyecka at yahoo.com (Lawrence Carlin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rumors that Harry was a Dark Wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724035526.22196.qmail@web60425.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134506 --- Kristen wrote: > In HBP Chapter 2, "Spinner's End," Snape tells Bellatrix and > Narcissa that "when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there > were still many stories circulating about him, rumors that he > himself was a great Dark Wizard, which was how he had survived the > Dark Lord's attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lord's followers > thought Potter might be a standard around which we could rally > once more." > snip > Draco is reasonably friendly to Harry in Madam Malkin's, before he > knows who Harry is(SS ch 5), but after a brief attempt to suck up > with the "wrong sort" statement in the train, he quickly takes > offense and lobs the "go the same way as your parents" comment(SS > ch 6). If the Malfoys suspected Harry could be the next > Voldemort, it seems like Draco would have been more persistent in > trying to establish good relations. Exactly. If Snape thought Harry a potential rallying point for the DE, wouldn't this explain why he saved Harry's life during the first Quidditch match in SS. Also, by being generally horrible to Harry, fanning the fires of hatred as it were, Snape could be seen as, at least trying to set Harry on the path towards being a DE. Or is this all to Vaderish and Star Warsie? If it is, I take it all back. Larry From a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 04:02:03 2005 From: a_b_desert_king at hotmail.com (a_b_desert_king) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:02:03 -0000 Subject: Where are the Horcruxes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allthingshp" wrote: > Since we have so so so long to wait for the next and final installment of the HP series I > though we might spend our time hypothesizing where the horcruxes might be (or who > might be holding on to them...) > snip > -allthingshp My thoughts: #1 - diary - (a Ravenclaw tout?) - destroyed #2 - ring - found in Gaunt's ruined house - destroyed #3 - Slytherin's locket - Kreacher's "room" in 12GP as per R.A.B. being Regulus Alphard Black theory (the first time I read the note I immediately thought it was Regulus) #4 - Hufflepull's cup - either in Room of Requirement ("I need someplace to hide my bood" and the room with many centuries of hidden items appears) or Chamber of Secrets #5 - Nagini - obviously with Lord Thingy - probably in Riddle's Manor #6 - Harry himself (Changling Theory anyone? and possibly Gryffindor's heir) I can't wait to find out.... Heather From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 03:27:05 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:27:05 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum - quick clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134508 snipsnapsnuur: > You've got a little bit of a logical fallacy going on here. You > believe that Snape is returning to Voldemort, which may or may not be > true. I don't think he is, but there really isn't any way to prove it > either way that I can see. The thing is, you can't use the fact that > he is taking Draco with him as additional evidence that Snape is > returning to Voldemort. I guess returning to Voldemort with Draco > would be more evil than going back without him, but the fact that he > is taking Draco with him wherever it is that he is going doesn't make > it any more likely that where he is going is back to Voldemort. You > are sort of using your conclusion as evidence for itself. I wish this reached the level of a logical fallacy on my part; unfortunately, all it really consititutes is clumsy usage and lack of clarity on my part. What I meant was that Snape is "returning to Voldemort" morally and in terms of alleigance. I don't necessarily think that he's immediately spiriting Draco away to Casa del Darklord - that's certainly possible, but there's no particular indication in the text. His actions, meanwhile, make it more likely that Draco will fall into Voldemort's clutches physically, and that Voldemort will therefore have more opportunity and power to influence Draco morally. The only inference I feel justified in making, on the basis of the text, is that Snape is more likely endangering than protecting Draco by removing him from Hogwarts, and that that strikes me as not reflected well on Snape's intentions. But beyond that, I can't venture any guesses - except, of course, accidentally, by failing to proof-read carefully enough! The 'shipper in me will speculate that maybe a secretly-good-after-all!Snape is taking SecretParseltongue! Draco to help reunite the JustMisunderstood!Basilisk with its long- lost One True Love, the Giant Squid. (Okay, not really.) Many thanks for calling me on that one, and sorry for the confusion! -hekatesheadband From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 04:09:04 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Seven horcruxes and no more / their use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724040904.50323.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134509 > Pot_of_harry > Maybe a soul can't be replaced once it's destroyed. I got the impression LV only represents one seventh of his own soul - not that it is any less powerful if he had them all. My question is - will he want any of them back? Are they hidden to protect LV's power? Or are the horcruxes intended to replace someone else's soul (like he tried with Ginny), and if so...why are they hidden? Juli: I think the reason LV wanted to split his soul is to get 7 lives: Let's go back to Godric's Hollow, an AK bounced of Harry and hit LV, his body died, but he kept a sixth of his soul, his soul was able to live cause there were other 5 pieces of it hidden somewhere, I think the only way the "used" soul can die is if there are no others, let me explain, Dumbledore doesn't have any Horcrux, so an AK hits him, and his body and his soul both die, cause the entire soul is inside his body, all of it gets hit by the AK. Voldemort on the other hand, has pieces of his soul all over the world. When he got hit by his own AK, his soul didn't die cause it wasn't whole, it was just a sixth (or seventh) of his soul that was hit. As long as at least one Horcrux remains Voldemort cannot die. That's why Harry has to destroy the remaining four before he attempts to kill Voldemort for good, cause until then he's inmortal. His inmortality depends on his Horcruxes, the moment they stop to exist, is the moment his inmortality ends. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 04:09:31 2005 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:09:31 -0000 Subject: Possibilities surrounding Nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape w/ DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134510 Snapely Susan wrote: > Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while > speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it > was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was > concentrating on? > Now Cory: This is an interesting thought; I had actually viewed the use of the fact that Snape spoke the AK in a different light. Because we know that Snape is proficient at performing nonverbal spells, we can assume that he *could* have performed the AK nonverbally if he had chosen to do so. I assume the reason why he spoke the incantation is because he wanted the Death Eaters who were present to *know* that the spell he performed was, in fact, an AK. Alternatively, JKR may have wanted *us* to know that the curse was an AK, thus eliminating any doubt as to whether Dumbledore is really, truly dead. --Cory From inkling108 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 04:18:43 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:18:43 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134511 "nrenka" wrote: > > > Consider it a hypothetic, > to work upon the task of seeing all sides, and all possibilities. > Inkling now: That was the idea -- not to argue the premise, but take it as a given. The logic I meant to convey was if...then. That is, if Snape's betrayal is real, then what does that tell us about him? Obviously, if the premise is wrong, the rest of the post is irrelevant (we'll all find out in two years or so). But for those of us who think Snape did truly betray Dumbledore , some rethinking is going on, and I wanted to reflect on that. Nrenka: > > Is it really so utterly unthinkable, that Dumbledore might have > > been mistaken--or at the least, fooled? This possibility is > > brought up repeatedly in the text; this might be only a reference > > to young Tom Riddle, or it might be foreshadowing. If one objects > > to the foreshadowing on the grounds that it's entirely too obvious, > > I'd like to point you to the romance of Ron and Hermione, also > > rejected by many a poster on *exactly the same grounds*. Then Lupinlore: > Excellent point. The books are, it is true, full of references to > how Dumbledore trusts Snape. They are also, however, full of > examples of how Dumbledore is often wrong about people -- sometimes > in spectacular ways. In PS/SS he was wrong about Quirrel. In CoS he > was wrong about Lockheart. In PoA he was revealed to have been wrong > about Sirius and Wormtail, and perhaps about Lupin as well. In GoF > he was fooled by someone impersonating one of his oldest friends. In > OOTP he was wrong about Harry, Sirius, AND Snape. We also have the > hint in HBP that he had been wrong about the Dursleys (although that > does contradict - I suspect by conscious choice on JKR's part - some > of what he said in OOTP). Added to is JKR's statement in her > interviews about how trusting too readily and wanting to believe the > best of people really IS a weakness of Dumbledore's, that indeed his > great intelligence sometimes made him liable to large-scale emotional > misunderstandings and miscalculations. The theme of Dumbledore's > weakness in this area runs straight through all the books. On the > face of it, there seems little reason to believe he might not have > been wrong about Snape -- particularly if Snape was playing his own > selfish game and if Snape came under severe emotional stress that > Dumbledore did not fully forsee or understand. Now Inkling: I know we're supposed to be snipping more, but these are such important points! We need to think outside a self-imposed box about Dumbledore trusting Snape, and the case for him being mistaken is there in canon if you want to see it. (SNIP) Nrenka again: > > Theme has become a weak point to argue upon, because none of us > know > > what Rowling is really aiming for. Inkling now: You know, I think theme is really all we have to argue from in a way. We certainly can't predict the future based on the past. Remember all the pre-HBP predictions that went nowhere? But if we have a sense of what she is trying to do, then we can predict, not specific events, but thematic unfolding. For example, I believe she is working toward Snape's redemption, but can't begin to guess how that might specifically happen. (Of course you are right that none of us really know what she is trying to do, but by this point, the penultimate book, many do have a strong sense or opinion about it. I know I do :-)) And I think the argument over Snape is essentially a clash of dueling themes, and those who believe in one theme will see the evidence for it, while those who believe in another will see the evidence for their position, and both will tend to ignore the evidence to the contrary. And things may get dicey because there is a lot of emotion involved when it comes to Snape, and at this point the shock of the ending of HBP is still so fresh. That's why I wanted to step outside the argument for a minute and say, well, suppose he acted out of evil intent, what then? But I'm not asking anyone to agree with that premise or to say that I know the answer to the big question about him. Just to present is one way of looking at it. Inkling From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 04:23:23 2005 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:23:23 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134512 I apologize if this has already been posted; I have not found it anywhere, although I admit I have not entirely kept up with all of the discussion since HBP came out. Anyway -- I have seen much posted regarding the possibility that the seventh bit of Voldemort's soul was placed inside Harry at the time of the failed AK, and that this will be the reason why Harry must die at the end of Book 7 in order to kill Voldemort. My question is this: is it possible that part of Voldemort's soul *was* in Harry, but that Voldemort unwittingly reunited this part with himself when he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in the graveyard in GOF? This would explain Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" at hearing that Voldemort had used Harry's blood. Just a thought I had earlier today. Any thoughts? --Cory From happydogue at aol.com Sun Jul 24 04:48:21 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:48:21 -0000 Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Joseph Campbell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134513 Lets take this theory or argument, as some may call it, in a different path. I am asking you to remove from your mind you like or dislike for any of the characters and analyze the story at the core level. You have a young boy who doesn't know that he is special who is destine to become the hero. This theme is quite typical as a "coming of age story". In the story you have a mentor that aids the youth. The youth meets several nemesis along the way. Some could be man against man, man against nature, man against himself etc. A turn in the story is the death of the mentor maybe at the hands of a nemesis. Snape is one of these nemesis. We know from typical plot twists in stories that many times a major adversary actually is the opposite. This person is perceived by the hero to be the cause of all his problems. This is the category Snape falls into. Harry is going to have to make a revelation. It may also be that Snape will die in the process of this revelation. This story structure is very typical. If you are interested in information about story analysis you may enjoy reading books by Joseph Campbell like " The Hero with a Thousand Faces" or "the Power of Myth" JMM > > Inkling now: > You know, I think theme is really all we have to argue from in a > way. We certainly can't predict the future based on the past. > Remember all the pre-HBP predictions that went nowhere? But if we > have a sense of what she is trying to do, then we can predict, not > specific events, but thematic unfolding. For example, I believe she > is working toward Snape's redemption, but can't begin to guess how > that might specifically happen. > > (Of course you are right that none of us really know what she is > trying to do, but by this point, the penultimate book, many do have > a strong sense or opinion about it. I know I do :-)) > > And I think the argument over Snape is essentially a clash of > dueling themes, and those who believe in one theme will see the > evidence for it, while those who believe in another will see the > evidence for their position, and both will tend to ignore the > evidence to the contrary. And things may get dicey because there is > a lot of emotion involved when it comes to Snape, and at this point > the shock of the ending of HBP is still so fresh. That's why I > wanted to step outside the argument for a minute and say, well, > suppose he acted out of evil intent, what then? But I'm not asking > anyone to agree with that premise or to say that I know the answer > to the big question about him. Just to present is one way of > looking at it. > > Inkling From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 04:55:27 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:55:27 -0000 Subject: Possibilities surrounding Nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape w/ DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134514 SSSusan: > All of this raises an even greater question for me, re: Snape on > the astronomy tower with DD. And here is that question: IF one is > accomplished at performing nonverbal spells, is it possible to > perform a nonverbal spell while *simultaneously* speaking the > incantation for another spell? IOW, can a highly talented wizard > manage to concentrate so hard upon a nonverbal incantation, that > he SUCCEEDS at it, even while speaking another spell which does > NOT come to fruition? Jen: I agree Snape is probably extremely gifted with nonverbals. Learning nonverbals sounds similar to learning Occlumency and Legilimency--close your mind, focus your intentions. Incidentally, I loved the scene where Snape is still trying to teach Harry a few last important lessons as he escapes from Hogwarts. That moment alone made me think Snape was not really evil. I'm sure some fans read this as one last chance for Snape to sneer & degrade, but it had echoes of an emergency Occlumency lesson to me ;). And the scene tells us how powerful Snape is! He *knows* the spell Harry is about to cast nonverbally when he attempts the Levicorpus. But back to your thoughts, Susan. I guess I'm leaning toward no, that a wizard can't perform one spell while nonverbally casting a different one. I say that for two reasons: 1) An Unforgiveable curse especially would require immense concentration. Even if smaller curses could be cast at the same time, I don't think an AK could. 2) During the fight bwetwen DD and LV in the MOM, we don't see either of them cast two spells/curses at the same time. I'd think we'd see it if it was possible. But that does lead to a thought from Cory in #134510: > Because we know that Snape is proficient at performing nonverbal > spells, we can assume that he *could* have performed the AK > nonverbally if he had chosen to do so. I assume the reason why he > spoke the incantation is because he wanted the Death Eaters who were > present to *know* that the spell he performed was, in fact, an AK. > Alternatively, JKR may have wanted *us* to know that the curse was > an AK, thus eliminating any doubt as to whether Dumbledore is > really, truly dead. Jen: We do have canon for performing an AK nonverbally! Voldemort casts several AK's silently at DD in the MOM battle. All we see is a green light. And I'd say he's definitely casting an AK because he asks Dumbledore, 'what, you do not seek to kill me'? He definitely expects that if he's attempting to AK Dumbledore, then DD would do the same. Sneaky!Dumbledore--now we know why he didn't attempt to kill Voldemort. SSSusan: > Not saying I buy this at all. Actually, I'm in the camp which > believes Snape was following DD's orders in killing him ? to > simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death > which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from > breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual > legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there > have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I > like the possibility of this. Jen: I'd like to think in that last moment, Dumbledore was reminding Snape to take care of Harry ;-). Wouldn't that be the kicker? Dumbledore leaving Snape as one last protection for Harry, who absolutely hates Snape with all his heart now. Snape will never be free from the Potter men until he dies. And to top it all off, DD never explained any of it to Harry. "Mistakes of an old man" rising up to bite him in the butt again? Jen, who was guilty of saying 'this is Harry's story, let Snape go go play in his dungeon,' only to find out this is actually Snape's story, too. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 05:18:55 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:18:55 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape take the UV in the first place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > > **Why did Snape take the unbreakable vow for Narcissa in the first place?** He didn't have to. He could have said, "Don't be > ridiculous, I won't risk my life for your precious son's" or > something similarly nasty. It doesn't matter that Bellatrix didn't believe his loyalty to Voldemort, because VOLDEMORT believes it, Tonks: As to why Snape took the vow, I think that there are many reasons. And a big one has to do with Narcissa. Snape, IMO, is not the cold heartless b-----d that he would like us to think he is. I think that he cares for Narcissa and maybe he *really* is a friend of Lucius and does care for what happens to Draco. But mostly I think that he responded to the pain that Narcissa was showing. And once he was in the position, which I don't think he realized was coming, he could not back down. At that point he had to appear to be a DE to the end. Mostly I think that he did it for Narcissa and a little bit for Draco. I don't think that he saw the third part of the vow coming. We see that by the fact that his hand quivered just a slight bit, but he did what he had to do to keep from blowing his cover. And yes I think that it matters what Bella thought at that point. What do you think LV would have done if Snape would not have finished the vow? I am sure that Bella would have gone running to LV to tell him. Snape was in a rather awkward position. And I for one think that it was because he let his heart get in his way. He cared. He didn't want to, he tried not to show it, but he cared. He could not bear to see Narcissa so distraught. I know that others don't agree with this, but I think that he cares for Narcissa more than we know. I think that after the fact he went to DD and told him what he had done. Also it appears that LV expected Snape to kill DD if Draco didn't. At least that is what Snape implies when he is talking to the sisters. We don't know if he is bluffing about that or if he really did have a conversation with LV about what Draco was expected to do. One would think that LV would be like other terrorist and have different instructions for different people without one knowing what any of the others were doing. But that may not be the case. Tonks_op From msmerymac at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 05:59:56 2005 From: msmerymac at yahoo.com (Meredith) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:59:56 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts and speculations after rereading JKR's interview on Leaky and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134516 Alla wrote: > > Another thing - she said in the last part of the interview that > Dumbledore's family would be profitable line of inquiry. Any ideas > why? > > Well, if I may bring up the knight2king theory for those who are not familiar... To sum up the theory - the chess game at the end of SS/PS is a map of how the rest of the series will play out. Ron plays the knight, but, since he is controlling the game, acts as the king, as well. Because of this, the rest of the theory reads that Ron will somehow go back in time... and become Dumbledore. Canon evidence actually does exist - most recently the watch Ron was given in HBP, which is similar to the watch DD pulls out in SS/PS on Privet Drive. Also, JKR has confirmed Ron's eyes are blue, like Dumbledore's. Dumbledore also mentioned his scar on his knee that was an exact map of the London underground - a relic of his encounter with Padfoot, perhaps? Obviously, in this case, Dumbledore's family and the Weasley family would be one in the same. Perhaps Ron and one of his brothers will actually go back, "creating" Aberforth. Also, in the rumors section of JKR's site, she said that Harry and Ron weren't any other character "from the future," not that Harry or Ron won't necessarily time travel back into the past. ~Luckie From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 04:40:07 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:40:07 -0000 Subject: When did Snape invent his curses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lapland874" wrote: > Snape had apparently invented several curses as evidenced by the potion > book which Harry used all year. However one curse was actually used > the previous year. When James turned Snape upside down was on the day > of his OWL's exam. The advanced potions book was not used by Snape > until the following year. Unless he was already using it? So did > Snape invent that curse/jinx or did he just figure it out and then > write it in the book? Obviously some of them where truely his, but > maybe not all of them. > > > Lapland874 It is possible he invented the Levicorpus spell and the Sectumsempra spell himself .... however it is also possible that he knew them when he came to Hogwarts. (from Gof) "I think they've both got a point," said Sirius, looking thoughtfully at Ron and Hermione. "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I've wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was," Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." The most prevelent (from what I've read so far) theory on the potions text book is that it had once belonged to SS's mother. We do not know for sure that the writing in the book ... or all of the writing in the book... is Severus's... some could be his mother's ... or from who ever was the previous owner. Harry learns the book was printed 50 years prior to it coming into his hands.... there for printed in 1946. So it could not have been Tom Riddle's book as he left school in 1945. It could indeed have been Snapes's mother if she was in her 6th year at Hogwarts in 1946 ... which would make her about age 30 when SS is born. So his mother could have know Tom Riddle while she was at school. I wonder if she was in Slytherin when she attended Hogwarts? If she did know Tom and had herself been interested in the Dark Arts it is possible she passed on some of her knowledge to Snape before he went to school. Deb (relative newbie poster to this site... but I've been lurking and enjoying the intelligent conversation for quite a while) From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 04:54:19 2005 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (!) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724045419.13427.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134518 Does anybody else out there think that Malfoys will be killed by Voldemort since Draco didn't kill Dumbledore? I don't know about anybody else, but I was (and still am) bummed out after reading HBP. It was really good, but the ending was quite depressing. Dumbledore's death. Snape killing Dumbledore. Snape's betrayal. Any comments? cathio2002 From verysherryk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 05:52:14 2005 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:52:14 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134519 Has anyone else noticed how much Stan Shunpike has been mentioned? We find out in book three that he is a conducter. He is seen trying to get the Vela's attention in book four, then back to conducter for book five. Now in book six, he is mentioned several times. It just seemed odd to me that he is mention so regularly when Dedalus Diggle is a member of the Order, and is hardly ever mentioned. Anyone have some speculation? Sherry From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 06:06:31 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:06:31 -0000 Subject: Fake AK Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134520 There are a lot of posts concerning the possibility that Snape used some other, non-verbal spell while saying the AK words. Lots of speculation over whether it would be possible to do that, etc. I would imagine it would be extremely difficult, but not impossible, and if it's possible, I bet Snape could do it. But here's another thing about it. There were a bunch of DE's looking on when Snape did it. They all probably know what a real AK looks like. They wouldn't be fooled. Of course they might not care what spell was used anyway as long as Dumbledore is dead. We only care because we have been told that it is an unforgivable spell and Snape is definitely evil if he used it. From an artistic point of view, though, if he is using a fake AK he has to be doing it in an attempt to deceive a character who is present in the scene. The only real candidates are Harry and Draco. Draco is actually a slightly better candidate since we know for a fact that Harry has seen a real AK performed successfully. In other words, if it was fake, and Harry was fooled, he should have known better. As I was writing this it occurred to me that maybe the AK spell is sort of personalized the way the patronus spell is. Or maybe it looks different depending on the state of mind of the person casting it. But now we are off into pure speculation. I'm starting to sort of hate this theory, actually. We the readers think it is really significant whether the AK was real or not, but I'm not sure anybody in the book really cares at all. If Snape had come up to the tower and beaten Dumbledore to death with a sock full of knuts Harry's reaction probably wouldn't be any different. snipsnapsnurr From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 06:37:29 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:37:29 -0000 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "prep0strus" wrote: > "Tammy" wrote: > > In general, how did HBP effect who your favorite characters were > > and how? (feel free to add your least favorites as well!) > > Good question! In general, I think Ginny came off great, Dumbledore > and Snape both had an amazing book that will only really be understood after the final book, and we got a little more of Lupin. > > But my actual FAVORITE (admitedly minor) character, didn't even get an appearance - Lee Jordan! 5 books of backin' up the Weasely twins, > smart talking at Quidditch, and then he's gone, without even a bit of > exposition to tell how he's doing. :( > > I also was really disappointed in poor old Ron - there has to be more > to him, and I thought this was his book. Those chess skills should > extrapolate into something else, shouldn't they? Ron's a great > character, but I was hoping this was the book that JKR would give him > a little more. I hope I'm not disappointed in him by the end. > > I feel that most of our characters were put on pause in this book, > waiting. Neville did less than he did in previous books, Luna barely > got to grow, and if anybody else was hoping, like I was, that the DA > would become a school-age Order of the Phoenix, with individual > members coming into their own, you were, like, I was, disappointed. > McGonagal, who really shone in 5, once again faded to the back burner. And, I agree, where's Moody? > > I know that 7th book has to be about Harry, and about Snape, and about Voldemort and saving the world and Ron/Hermione consumating their rather tepid relationship... but I hope the legions of minor > characters that JKR has invested her time and our emotions in get > their payoff as well. If Dumbledore's right, and it's about love, it > can't just be about 'The Chosen One' loving enough for everyone - it > has to be everyone loving him, and they all should have a part to > play. I hope they do. > > Hm, I don't think I precisely answered the question, but that's my > take on the characters in Book 6 anyway. > > ~Prep0strus Sue here: Good point about the minor characters - I did enjoy the fun JKR had with the new commentators (don't forget, Lee Jordan was a dyed-in-the-wool Gryffindor and showed his bias too). I, too, missed Mad-Eye - the problem is, the Mad-Eye we thought we knew was actually Barty Crouch Jr, so it would be like having a new character - he didn't do much in OoP. I thought there'd be more Luna and, yes, DA. But if the next book takes place away from Hogwarts, we will be out of our comfort zone anyway. It will be Harry and Snape, LV and Draco and maybe Harry will have some help from Lupin snd the last bits of the OoP. I will be very annoyed, though, if she doesn't tie up the loose ends of such characters as Neville and Luna. I really thought those two would come into their own in this book, as much stronger characters. I have said in another post that I am going to wait and see with Snape - he isn't yet in my bad books! One thing, though - if, as has been said, it's about love - and I think it is - it seems to me that those characters who are capable of loving, or of being loved, are capable of redemption. I don't think LV is going to be redeemed, any more than Sauron! In this book he showed he couldn't love and didn't want any. But Draco - a character who has been pretty 2-dimensional stereotyped till now, has suddenly become a frightened teenager whose mother loves him, whatever you think of his father, and who cares about his family. I think he will be redeemed. Harry has definitely improved from the last book, and has become the kind of hero who is capable of going on that quest. (Oh, that scene in the cave, where he is having to take DD through that agony! I got a lump in the throat! The earlier Harry couldn't have done this task) Possibly he's made a mistake in turning down Ginny's love - he needs all the love he can get, and, let's face it, all LV needs to do is attack any member of the Weasley family, not just his girlfriend. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 06:47:11 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:47:11 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum - quick clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hekatesheadband" wrote: > snipsnapsnuur: > > You've got a little bit of a logical fallacy going on here. You > > believe that Snape is returning to Voldemort, which may or may not > > be true. ...edited... > -hekatesheadband > > ... was that Snape is "returning to Voldemort" morally and in terms > of alleigance. ... His actions, meanwhile, make it more likely > that Draco will fall into Voldemort's clutches physically, and that > Voldemort will therefore have more opportunity and power to > influence Draco morally. > > The only inference I feel justified in making, on the basis of the > text, is that Snape is more likely endangering than protecting Draco > by removing him from Hogwarts, and that that strikes me as not > reflected well on Snape's intentions. ... > > Many thanks for calling me on that one, and sorry for the confusion! > > -hekatesheadband bboyminn: First let me point out that at the top of the tower, and as they fight there way out of the castle, there are more Death Eaters there than Snape and Draco. My guess was that if Draco wasn't able to kill Dumbledore, then the remaining Death Eaters would have surely killed him on the spot. But Snape stepped in and took charge, he dispatched Dumbledore and dragged Draco off with him. In my opinion, dragging Draco off in the moment saves Draco's life. Once everyone has had time to cool down, Snape will bring Draco to Voldemort who will punish him SEVERELY. But after the punishment, Draco will still be alive. Much better to be tortured for your misdeeds than to be killed for them. Consequently, I believe Draco will be alive and well in the next book. Who knows, we may even get to see him tortured; that could be fun (sarcasm). So, in a sense, you are saying that by taking Draco away with him, Snape has doomed Draco. However, I am saying that the fact that Snape took charge, and removed Draco from the scene is the only thing that saved Draco. Once they are away from the scene, Draco's death is no longer a matter of DE discretion, but becomes a matter for Lord Voldemort to deal with. With Snape, Mr. Malfoy, and Mrs. Malfoy begging for leniency, I think the Dark Lord may decide that after punishment, he may be able to use Draco in the future. Draco is, afteral, very young and it would be understandable that the task of killing Dumbledore might have been more than he was able to do. Certainly, greater men than Draco have wanted to kill Dumbledore and failed. Snape has done what seems to be a horrible thing, in fact, even under the best of circumstance, it's still a horrible things, but I haven't counted Snape or Draco (or for that matter, Peter) out of the game yet. They could still come around. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 06:46:11 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:46:11 EDT Subject: Tom, evil, choices, and CapsLock!Harry in OoP Message-ID: <206.59d6181.30149333@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134523 Del wrote: This is something that bothers me much. Before HBP, I had lots of questions about what kind of kid Tom was, and how he came to be what he became. I was hoping that HBP would show us that he indeed *chose* to become weird. But that's pointedly NOT what JKR tells us. Completely the opposite in fact: she openly tells us that Tom was NEVER normal. But if he was never normal, then how could he be expected to make normal choices? See, that's the thing that bothers me. JKR says that she doesn't believe that anyone is born evil, but on the other hand, she gives us that kid who was never normal to start with, and who grew up in circumstances that sure didn't help (mainly, no magical parents to identify his bad acts and deal with them). Julie says: You know what bothers me? Here's this kid with problems from birth, not normal, no love, no positive role models, magical and already using it for dark purposes, and what happens when he gets to Hogwarts? He's sorted into SLYTHERIN. The house full of ambitious, sly students generally out for themselves, who are only going to reinforce Tom's negative and self- serving behavior. Dumbledore knows all this, as we saw in the pensieve scene, he can already see what Tom could one day be capable of, but following Hogwarts traditions has no problem letting Tom reside in Slytherin house. Could Tom have turned out differently if he'd been sorted into Hufflepuff, where loyalty and just motives are most valued, or even into Gryffindor, where bravery of heart and chivalry are encouraged? Maybe not, but certainly for a child who is a loner entranced by power, and already using it for selfish gain, the only hope to help him become a valuable and well-adjusted member of society would be to influence him against those values that bring out the worst in him, not to plop him right down in the middle of them. Luckily Harry Potter is only fantasy, because for all the arguing about how abusive Snape is or isn't, he can't come close to the abuse perpetrated by the Sorting Hat and Hogwarts School administration in taking 11 year old children and basically abandoning them to their worst impulses. And they wonder why the Grindenwalds/Voldemorts/Malfoys keep popping up in the Wizarding World? Adair wrote: I don't think the Hat takes physical characterizations into account when Sorting. Because believe me, if anyone has belonged in Slytherin it was Tom Riddle as Slytherin's last heir, even though he was a half-blood. And Harry is considered a half-blood by Wizarding standards, we've been told that by JKR. I believe Sorting relies entirely upon a person's personality, abilities, proclivities, and above all, choices. Julie says: But they aren't people. They're children. How many choices have they been able to make thus far in their lives, let alone fully informed choices that require experience and maturity? Julie (who in the real world would have serious issues with the Hogwarts philosophy of sorting children by their temperaments, encouraging division between them, and with Slytherin House's very existence) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 06:47:33 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:47:33 -0000 Subject: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: <20050724045419.13427.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ! wrote: > Does anybody else out there think that Malfoys will be > killed by Voldemort since Draco didn't kill Dumbledore? > Tonks: There are many ways that this could play out. 1. LV could be so happy about DD's death the he just forgets about Draco and starts planning for the big move on Harry. 2. Draco is still in big trouble and Snape took him to his mother and Narcissa and Draco go into hiding somewhere that only Snape knows about. The problem with this is that there are 4 other DE that know that Draco was last seen with Snape, so this probably would not work. 3. LV is not happy with Draco, but Snape somehow talks him out of any retaliation, by dismissing Draco as a inexperienced child. Then LV may not punish Draco, but will expect him to kill someone next year when he is officially a man. 4. This is far out, but LV sent Narcissa to Snape to test Snape. Bella did not know about it, she thought Narcissa was acting on her own. Draco was never in any harm from LV, LV wanted to see if Snape would actually kill DD and thus prove his loyality to LV. I tend to think that number 1 or 3 are the most likely. There are probably other options, but I can't think of them right now. Tonks_op From katbofaye at aol.com Sun Jul 24 06:33:51 2005 From: katbofaye at aol.com (katssirius) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:33:51 -0000 Subject: theory on harry being a horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134525 I agree with you. This is why Harry has a scar. AK does not leave a mark as JKR reminds us again and again. Harry's scar is from whoever put a part of Voldemort inside of him. This is also supported by Dumbledore's description of Nagini. Harry was as closely linked in OOtP as the snake. katssirius From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 06:41:17 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:41:17 -0000 Subject: Prank on Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134526 I did a group search on this topic and didn't find anything, so let me know if it's been discussed and what conclusions where made. Has anyone thought that there was more to the prank played on Snape by Sirius, regarding Remus at a full moon in the Shrieking shack; from which James saved Snape? Theories anyone? Perhaps one theory is that it may have had something to do with Lily? (I am open and undecided about the whole Snape/Lily thing.) I just get this feeling that JKR gave us that particular memory for a reason beyond showing mutual malice between James & gang and Snape. ~casmir From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 07:04:46 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:04:46 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "verysherryk" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed how much Stan Shunpike has been mentioned? > ... It just seemed odd to me that he is mention so regularly .... > Anyone have some speculation? > > Sherry bboyminn: I think Stan is being set up to be an 'every man'; and average everyday Joe who maybe brags a little more than he should, but is known by the general wizard world as being essentially harmless. Yet, they have been holding him in prison for doing nothing more that a little bragging, and Harry and Dumbledore know that THIS is wrong. For this to work, we have to know Stan well enough that we can't possibly believe he is truly a Death Eater. The morale of the story is that while the New Minister is stronger and more decisive than Fudge, he is just as corrupt and politically motivated. I think Stan existance in the story is to reach the current book and help establish the true nature of the New Minister of Magic, and that account for all the previous mentions of him though out the series. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 07:21:21 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:21:21 EDT Subject: This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him? Message-ID: <217.5622f8a.30149b71@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134528 Lupinlore wrote: Excellent point. The books are, it is true, full of references to how Dumbledore trusts Snape. They are also, however, full of examples of how Dumbledore is often wrong about people -- sometimes in spectacular ways. In PS/SS he was wrong about Quirrel. In CoS he was wrong about Lockheart. In PoA he was revealed to have been wrong about Sirius and Wormtail, and perhaps about Lupin as well. In GoF he was fooled by someone impersonating one of his oldest friends. In OOTP he was wrong about Harry, Sirius, AND Snape. We also have the hint in HBP that he had been wrong about the Dursleys (although that does contradict - I suspect by conscious choice on JKR's part - some of what he said in OOTP). Added to is JKR's statement in her interviews about how trusting too readily and wanting to believe the best of people really IS a weakness of Dumbledore's, that indeed his great intelligence sometimes made him liable to large-scale emotional misunderstandings and miscalculations. The theme of Dumbledore's weakness in this area runs straight through all the books. On the face of it, there seems little reason to believe he might not have been wrong about Snape -- particularly if Snape was playing his own selfish game and if Snape came under severe emotional stress that Dumbledore did not fully forsee or understand. Julie says: I don't quite see Dumbledore being wrong about people as often as you do. Quirrell had worked at Hogwarts before, and Dumbledore had no reason to distrust him when he returned. As for Lockhart, I don't think Dumbledore was really any more fooled by him than the rest of Hogwarts staff. He just needed a teacher to take a temporary position (and he considered Lockhart temporary based both on the supposed DADA curse--real or not--and on the fact that he said so in CoS). I think Dumbledore hoped for the best with Lockhart, that he would at least prove marginally competent, but that's not the same as being fooled by him. I give you Mad-Eye Moody. Dumbledore did know and trust the real Mad-Eye, so I can only say he wasn't around the imposter enough to really get a read on him. It seems odd though, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out by the end of Book Seven that Dumbledore did know he was dealing with an imposter but kept it to himself for some reason. Dumbledore is tricky that way. As for Sirius and Wormtail, it doesn't seem that Dumbledore was around them enough to know them really well. The evidence seemed to speak for itself, and since he had no contact with them after Godric's Hollow, he couldn't take his own reading, so to speak. Lupin, OTOH, wasn't a bad judgment of character by Dumbledore, but Lupin did let Dumbledore down by forgeting his potion. That's also what happened in OoTP. Both Snape and Harry let Dumbledore down by not making a supreme effort to overcome their antipathy toward each other and focus on the critically important task of teaching/learning Occlumency. So it's true that Dumbledore sometimes expects the best from people around him and they don't deliver. And those he has trusted who subsequently "fooled him" have tended to be people he didn't have frequent or prolonged contact with. And this brings us to Snape. Dumbledore has worked with Snape for 17 years, and over the past 6 years the he has depended heavily on Snape to complete various tasks necessary to prepare for and win the war against Voldemort, including both protecting and teaching the most vital resource in that coming war, Harry Potter. He has told Snape things he's told *no one* else, not even McGonagall. Of all the teachers at Hogwarts, Dumbledore and Snape may be the closest in the sense of how much they know about each other and how much vital information they share. I fully accept that Dumbledore can misread people, and that he can expect the best from people which isn't always forthcoming. Dumbledore is fallable this way, and he admits it. What I can't accept is that he could be wrong about Snape, a man he's known now and worked with day in and day out for 17 years, a man he has chosen to be for all intents and purposes his right hand man in the fight against Voldemort. Dumbledore is fallible, he has been wrong about people before, but if he's wrong about Snape, the one man he's entrusted with every critical bit of information that will lead to the downfall of Voldemort, then he's not just fallible, he's a fool. And his death is devalued greatly--it's not a noble sacrifice for the greater good but simply the passing of a deluded old man. Thus, part of my reason for believing Snape is good is because it redeems him (which I'm rooting for), but the other and just as important reason is because it preserves Dumbledore as the man I believe him to be, humanly fallible on occasion but still a wise and great wizard whose guiding hand is behind Harry's every step in his journey to fulfill his destiny as the boy who lived. Julie (who thinks this is the Snape she wanted, and better yet, the Dumbledore she wanted) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Sun Jul 24 07:46:24 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:46:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fake AK Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E34750.4070408@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134529 snipsnapsnurr wrote: > There are a lot of posts concerning the possibility that Snape used > some other, non-verbal spell while saying the AK words. Lots of > speculation over whether it would be possible to do that, etc. I > would imagine it would be extremely difficult, but not impossible, > and if it's possible, I bet Snape could do it. But here's another > thing about it. There were a bunch of DE's looking on when Snape did > it. They all probably know what a real AK looks like. They wouldn't > be fooled. Of course they might not care what spell was used anyway > as long as Dumbledore is dead. We only care because we have been told > that it is an unforgivable spell and Snape is definitely evil if he > used it. From an artistic point of view, though, if he is using a > fake AK he has to be doing it in an attempt to deceive a character > who is present in the scene. The only real candidates are Harry and > Draco. Draco is actually a slightly better candidate since we know > for a fact that Harry has seen a real AK performed successfully. In > other words, if it was fake, and Harry was fooled, he should have > known better. snipsnapsnurr Kathy writes: I would love the fake AK spell except for one thing. How would a person satisfy the Unbreakable Vow. I think JKR deliberately wrote that Vow into the book to make it absolutely clear that, for whatever reason, Snape really did kill Dumbledore. Snape could fool the Deatheaters, I'm sure he could cast one spell verbally and another non-verbally, but how is he going to fool the Vow? KJ From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 08:17:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:17:41 -0000 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy" wrote: In general, how did HBP effect who your favorite characters were and how? (feel free to add your least favorites as well!) Tonks: My most favorite character as most everyone here knows, the one I love with all of my heart and soul the one that I would die for is DD. So I am very depressed. Can't even drive down the street without thinking about it and bursting into tears. (Another obsessed HP fan.) And since JKR's interview and her saying that this was the last Quidditch match, well that makes me even more depressed if that is possible. That means that the school will close. I found comfort in knowing that whatever happened Hogwarts was always there. DD was always there. I don't know how I will go on. (sob, sob.) I do like the fact that Tonks got her man! That brings me some comfort. I like Lupin. He is a kind, loving man. And I always did like older men. ;-) So I approve of this match. I liked the scene where Arthur is talking to Lupin. I liked that a lot. There were parts early on where I was really mad at Harry. I found myself talking to him like "Harry, you fool!! All these people risking their life for you and what do you do! First chance you get, you sneak off to Knockturn Alley of all places! Have you learned nothing?!!" And then when he gets this theory of Draco being a DE, I said "oh Harry, for god sakes, just *when* I ask you, have you *ever* been right about any of these things!! And here you go again!!" But he was OK later. It was a bit odd that he didn't process his grief over Sirius more, but we really didn't have time for that and he *dealt* with it by projecting all the blame onto Snape. So at least that gave us an explanation instead of just leaving it hanging. I like Snape even more, as odd as that might seem. You have to admire the man whatever side he is on. He is very intelligent, can worm his way out of almost anything, and can take control of any situation. Like others here have said Snape is a man of honor. He followed through on the vow and if he did have a *deal* with DD to kill him if things went very wrong and his cover would be blow, well he did the hard thing and did it well. (I think that he is still DD's man. If DD said Snape is OK, I will take DD's word for it.) I liked the second chapter and seeing the sisters and Snape as human beings. The bad guys are just like the rest of us. They love their family and children, they have a drink with friends, etc. The only difference is as JKR would say is the choices that they make. I think also that because Snape was able to do the AK and do it quickly and right, that he has done it before. So those who say that DD would not have wanted Snape to become a killer, I think that he has already killed in the past. He was not an innocent *pure* soul to be saved from an act that he has not done before, as Draco was. Snape does add much depth and twist to the plot. He is a very rich character. I still like all my other favorites: Molly and Arthur, Hagrid, McG, Luna. I did not like Fleur before, but that scene in the hospital was great. She is a good woman after all. I thought that she was just a vain airhead, but not anymore. She is OK. I have never cared for Draco, but it will be interesting to see how he turns out in the end. And as to "shipping", I have never cared about that, but I got `um all right even so. (Remember I said that Ginny and Harry would have to be together because in the CS they represent Adam and Eve in the tomb and that before the end they have to be together as the new Adam and the new Eve.) Tonks_op From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 08:46:22 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:46:22 -0000 Subject: The Future of Hogwarts was Re: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > And since JKR's interview and her saying that this was the last > Quidditch match, well that makes me even more depressed if that is > possible. That means that the school will close. I don't think this necessarily means that the school will close, but I have reluctantly come to accept that we won't see it - or at least not as 'insiders'. If Harry is not there we won't see the quiddich matches. If Hogwarts does stay open it will be a very differnt place to the school we know. It has a new Headmistress and will be in need of a new DADA teacher, a new Transfiguration teacher (I'm working on the principal that DD no longer taught when he was head so neither will McG) and probably a new potions teacher (as I doubt Sluggy will stay without DD). It will also need a new Head of Gryffindor and Head of Slytherin (assuming Sluggy does go). With all these changes, no irrespective of whatever is going on in the outside WW, Hogwarts will never be the same again. Karen From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 08:56:01 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:56:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's AK Failed!!! In-Reply-To: <000e01c58f9d$a0c06d10$c3a0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134532 > > DD was blasted from the top of the Astronomy tower. > > Wait, excuse me? Richelle's response: > It's already been said that it could've been the result of a limp body > simply falling, so I'll skip that. Ok, I've read this section again for the third time. Since DD's body falling off the top of the tower is described as a rag doll ("then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.), I agree with you that he was limp at this point. However, I want to point out that he did, in fact, move inappropriately. "he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was BLASTED INTO THE AIR. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell...." (emphasis is mine). I do wish to point out I agree the spell worked (Snape killed DD), just not as prettily as it should or could have. Smart From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 09:17:12 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:17:12 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134533 > Max responds: > > This has been a "pet peeve" of mine for a number of years. If the > ancient magic is automatic, then how can Harry be the only one? >Lily > can't possibly be the first person to willingly give their life >for a > loved one in the history of the wizarding world. > > Melissa, in fact, tries to clarify by asking: > > "MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave > someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - > > JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way." > If it's not a charm placed on Harry by Lily, then what might it be? What > does JKR mean by "that particular way"? I took it to mean that no-one has sacrificed themselves for someone who is the oject of a Horcrux attempt. DD says to Harry (UK Ed p473, ch23) "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." Which implies to me that the curse which he used to try and kill Harry was somehow more than a straightforward AK curse, it also had something else bound into it that was designed to create the Horcrux. Saraquel From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 24 09:39:52 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:39:52 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's death / Slughorn Message-ID: <004501c59033$a4ad7490$a8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134534 Geoff said:> Nope. He would have returned to his normal shape as Slughorn after > being killed. UNIX4EVR said: "Are you sure about that? I must disagree, because canon states otherwise.... ...."The Dementors are blind. They sensed one healthy, one dying person entering Azkaban. They sensed one healthy, one dying person leaving it. My father smuggled me out, disguised as my mother, in case any prisoners were watching through their doors. My mother died a short while afterwards in Azkaban. She was careful to drink Polyjuice Potion until the end. She was buried under my name and bearing my appearance. Eveyone believed her to be me."' You answered your own question. Polyjuice Potion would continue to work for the rest of the hour since Mrs. Crouch had taken her last swallow. Until it wore off *she* would still be *he*. The magic wasn't something she was doing, the magic was in the potion she took. Not the same as Slughorn transfiguring himself into DD and being AK'd in which the magic, Slughorn's magic, would be gone with him when he died, as the Body-Binding spell on HP stopped when DD died. That's why Sirius could say "The Dementors buried him outside the fortress, I watched them do it." Crouch didn't come to Azkaban for his *son's* body, because he knew by the time he got it back home for a proper funeral, the body would be that of his wife and just how do you explain that one, when you've buried her once already? CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 24 09:40:04 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:40:04 -0400 Subject: Unbreakable Vow (Snape and Dumbledore)/Re: How did Draco get the hand of glory? Message-ID: <004901c59033$abbba360$a8c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134535 zgirnius said: "This of course would mean there is a third person who knows about the UV (who would have had to play the same role as Bella played in Snape and Cissy's UV). My two best guesses for these hypothetical folks might be McGonagall or Hagrid. Both seemed especially confident in Dumbledore's judgement regarding Snape." My best guess is it was James. Snape knew, by that point, that LV was going after the Potters. What better way to show DD that he truly meant his remorse than make James the Bonder. Hagrid's confidence in DD's trust of Snape is his absolute adoration for DD. DD, while he couldn't keep him from being expelled, kept him at the school, somehow kept him out of Azkaban initially (would they chuck a 13 yr-old in Azkaban for murder?), gave him a place to live, a family, a home....etc., etc. In Hagrid's eyes, DD can do no wrong. While I don't think McGonagall is quite that infatuated with DD, he has obviously convinced her of his belief that Snape is trustworthy. DD had hinted to her of an "iron-clad reason for trusting Snape" and that "Dumbledore told me explicitly that Snape's repentance was absolutely genuine...wouldn't hear a word against him!" (HBP pg 574 Can Ed) ------------- rochesteruponmedway asked: "I'm very confused about this. Draco wanted his father to buy him the hand of glory, but Lucius categorically refused. Now, all of a sudden, not only does Draco possess this article but everyone (well, Ron anyway) seems to know he possesses it. I have a vague memory of JKR saying in an interview something about Draco's hand of glory, and being surprised at the time, since I'm sure it isnt mentioned in any of the previous books that he had actually acquired it. Is this a slip on Jo's part, or is it just my bad memory?" I could swear Ron mentions it in COS, but I would probably have to read the whole book again to find it. And you do realize, now, that I AM going to have to find it.... CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oiboyz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 09:57:16 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:57:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape take the UV in the first place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134536 > Tonks: > Also it appears that LV expected Snape to kill DD if Draco > didn't. I think that's key. Whether he takes the vow or not -- whether he even *knows* what he's vowing or he's just bluffing -- Snape knows that a dreadful day of reckoning is coming. On that day, he'll either have to do something horrible in LV's service, or he'll be exposed as disloyal to LV and immediately lose most of his usefulness to the Order. So, in the heat of the moment, facing an unexpected request from Narcissa and with no easy way out, Snape recklessly chooses to take the vow in order to be as trusted (by the bad guys) as possible until the inevitable crackup comes. The obvious disadvantage of the vow is that Snape'll drop dead if he breaks it. But my take on this is that Snape's not terribly attatched to his life anyway. I can't imagine a more stressful existence than living as a double agent, hated by both sides, with a very slim chance of success and an even slimmer chance of finding happiness at the end. And Snape probably figures he'll be toast one of these days anyway. But then he tells DD about the vow, and DD decides that a Snape who's completely trusted by LV is worth more to the Order than DD being alive himself. So he tells Snape to kill him when the time comes and carry on with spying. To me, the fight between DD and Snape that Hagrid overhears is very poignant... "Well?I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he?Snape- didn' wan' ter do it anymore?" "Do what?" "I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all?anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him." Snape didn't want to do what? Didn't want to spy, didn't want to kill DD, didn't want to *live* anymore. The vow was his ticket out, but DD wouldn't let him use it. And may I just add one more thing? When JKR killed off Sirius, I was very sorry but accepted it. And when she killed off DD, I mourned but I understood it was necessary for her story. But if she tops that by showing us in Book 7 that Snape really *is* Ever So Evil... that, I will not accept. If JKR reveals that Snape wasn't acting on DD's orders when he killed him, I'm just going ignore her and spend the rest of my days reading alternate universe fanfics. :) oiboyz From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 10:39:48 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:39:48 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bob Alberti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deepam" wrote: > > Going over the part 3 of the interview JK gave to mugglenet.com > > and the leaky cauldron (she gave a hint that it is possible > > to find at least one horcrux), and re-reading the last few chapters, > > I have a theory regarding the horcrux: > > > > 1. Dumbledore is the last heir of Gryffindor. > > 2. The potion in the green basin inside the cave was THE horcrux. > > > I disagree with this clever interpretation. It seems fairly clear > that the Horcrux from the basin was removed by Regulus Black and was > the "unopenable locket" found by Harry and the Weasleys while cleaning GP. > No, this theory posits that Slytherin's locket never was in the basin in the first place. Voldemort put the false locket there himself, when he first prepared the Horcrux, and Dumbledore is the first person to find it. How Slytherin's real locket ended up at Grimmauld Place is not yet clear, but Regulus Black is, I believe, a red herring, who has nothing to do with the Horcrux. Wanda From Lynx412 at AOL.com Sun Jul 24 10:45:42 2005 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 06:45:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed Message-ID: <207.59d4ce5.3014cb56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134538 In a message dated 7/24/2005 2:48:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, tonks_op at yahoo.com writes: > Tonks: > There are many ways that this could play out. > > 1. LV could be so happy about DD's death the he just forgets about > Draco and starts planning for the big move on Harry. > > 2. Draco is still in big trouble and Snape took him to his mother > and Narcissa and Draco go into hiding somewhere that only Snape > knows about. The problem with this is that there are 4 other DE > that know that Draco was last seen with Snape, so this probably > would not work. > > 3. LV is not happy with Draco, but Snape somehow talks him out of > any retaliation, by dismissing Draco as a inexperienced child. Then > LV may not punish Draco, but will expect him to kill someone next > year when he is officially a man. > > 4. This is far out, but LV sent Narcissa to Snape to test Snape. > Bella did not know about it, she thought Narcissa was acting on her > own. Draco was never in any harm from LV, LV wanted to see if Snape > would actually kill DD and thus prove his loyality to LV. > > I tend to think that number 1 or 3 are the most likely. > > There are probably other options, but I can't think of them right I'm a firm believer in number 4, mainly because I believe that Chap. 2 shows that Snape was/is in love with Narcissa. I think LV said "If you want to save your son..." and sent her to test Snape by getting him to 'help' Draco. And Snape himself says "He intends me to do it in the end, I think" I suspect that the UV may not have been part of the plan, but when Bella came along Narcissa grabbed at the chance to bind Snape to the task. As for number 3: I can see LV sending Draco off on a task 'even a weakling like you may be able to accomplish, kill these muggles for me'. We've all speculated on an attack on Privet Drive since we learned of the protection on Harry, and what better time for petunia, if she is the one, to use magic late in life to defend Dudley. It would make a nice parallel to Narcissa/Draco, too. And aren't the trio headed for Privet Drive first? The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 10:52:44 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:52:44 -0000 Subject: On a horcrux in book 4, wand question & wrappers-JKR interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134539 http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml Chys: I don't mean to flood if it's already mentioned, but JKR said that the clues to what the other horcruxes are, or where they can be found, are in the previous books. (At least that's what I kind of gleaned from this part of the interview): ------- MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry's setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story? JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows ? well he believe he knows ? what he's facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, `There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do. ES: It's a tall order. JKR: It's a huge order. But Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say. ---- Chys: Ok, again, too many posts to see if anyone mentioned it: Is Peter's hand a horcrux, because LV made it after he killed Cedric, and it wouldn't be like putting your soul into something, more like transfiguring it into a metal hand? Why did the priori incantatem thing show the Hand, then the ghostforms of the dead people, instead of the killing curses/whatever that he'd been shooting at Harry before? Was it just for things involving something having been alive and either created or destroyed by the wand? Just a guess, but I dunno if there's anything to really base it on. Added to that, according to this interview, I was right all along on the gum wrapper theory, which I am kinda sad about, actually. It's just sentimental value: ---- MA: Our next winner question is from Delaney Monaghan, who is 6 years old, via her mother, Vanessa Monaghan. They're from Canberra, Australia. "What is the significance, if any of the gum wrappers that Mrs. Longbottom keeps giving Neville?" ES: Quick, go on the record [with what you think] before she answers ? MA: I think they're a sad mark of an insane woman. JKR: That was also asked of me this morning. That idea was one of the very few that was inspired by a real event. I was told what, to me, was a very sad story by someone I know about their elderly mother who had Alzheimer's, and the elderly mother was in a closed ward. She was very severely demented and no longer recognized her son, but he went faithfully to visit her twice a week, and he used to take her sweets. That was their point of connection; she had a sweet tooth, she recognized him as the sweet-giver. That was very poignant to me. So I embroidered the story. Neville gives his mother what she wants, and (it makes me sad to think of it) she wants to give something back to him, but what she gives back to him is essentially worthless. But he still takes it as worth something because she's trying to give, so it does mean something, in emotional terms. But, the theories on the sweet wrappers, are really out there. ES: You can't blame them. JKR: I mean she's not trying to pass him secret messages. MA: She's not really sane ? JKR: No. You're right. But that's a classic example of, "Let's just shut that one down," because it doesn't really lead anywhere very interesting even if they're wrong. MA: It's probably one of the most touching moments in the books. JKR: I think it is important as a character moment. ---- Chys: But it is kinda neat, all the stuff you guys came up with! I really rather liked the noble in the graveyard idea. Chys From mariabronte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 07:22:49 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:22:49 -0000 Subject: Snape, the Facts and nothing but the Facts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134540 "bbkkyy55" wrote: > I was watching POA today and got thinking. Didn't Snape know about > Pettigrew and that Sirius was innocent. Why was he so keen on taking > Sirius immediately to the dementors? Did he hate Sirius so much he > would commit murder or actually worse than murder on an innocent > man? This is very interesting. Someone may correct me on this but I believe he did NOT know that Pettigrew and not Sirius was the betrayer, at the time he went after Harry, Ron and Hermione to the Shrieking Shack. In PoA Snape is actually making the choice to go and SAVE Harry, Ron and Hermione from someone who he believes to be in league with Voldemort. Of course, his personal prejudice then gets in the way and he prefers to believe that Sirius is guilty even when informed otherwise by the trio. Putting it in context, there are a number of difficult choices Snape has had to make in canon. In PS/SS, he saved Harry's life. PoA-mentioned above. GoF-convincing Fudge that Voldemort has returned. Voldemort wanted no one to believe he was back! OoTP- alerting the order to what was happening in the Department of Mysteries. Voldemort was furious that he was unable to get the prophecy. The most peculiar thing about each of these choices is that it was un- necessary for Snape to make them in order to maintain his cover. In fact, each of these choices COULD have intensely irritated Voldemort. The evidence remains ambiguous, as many posters have pointed out. I am simply saying that throughout the series, Snape has been set up as a very ambiguous character. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the reason Rowling spent so long editing, planning and going back over this book (as she has stated in interviews) is that she INTENDED the end of this book to be the HIGH POINT of the ambiguity which has characterized Snape through the series. Mari. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 11:01:02 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:01:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's or Lily's Handwriting? (RE: Rosmerta and EstherS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134541 Rosmerta said With Slughorn stressing over and over again what a Potions genius Lily was, methinks many of those hints in Harry's book were originally from her. Want to bet Lily and Severus were Potions partners? EstherS Says I'm not sure whether Lily helped Snape or vice versa or they just worked it out together. Snape is known to be an excellent Potions master, it is mentioned several times in PoA and again in HBP by Lupin. Also remember (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snape wrote all his recipes on the board (not relying on the text-book) and while Snape was Potions master Hermione's potions came out perfectly. If Snape wrote all these notes in his book surely Lily would have done the same. James could quite easily having taken a peek at Lily's text book. Chys: THIS BUGS ME! Why didn't Harry recognize the handwriting? Did he? Handwriting doesn't change that much over time. Was it Lily's? Could they (Lily/Snape) have worked them out together, and that be how James had learned of Snape's spells, by learning them from Lily? The marauders did seem very cautious around her, like she was a fuse ready to be lit under their bums. It takes a long time to experiment with spells and potions, to do all that at such a young age leads me to believe the both of them were in on it. Chys From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 11:05:39 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:05:39 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts and speculations after rereading JKR's interview on Leaky and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134543 Luckie wrote: Well, if I may bring up the knight2king theory for those who are not familiar... To sum up the theory - the chess game at the end of SS/PS is a map of how the rest of the series will play out. Ron plays the knight, but, since he is controlling the game, acts as the king, as well. Because of this, the rest of the theory reads that Ron will somehow go back in time... and become Dumbledore. Canon evidence actually does exist - most recently the watch Ron was given in HBP, which is similar to the watch DD pulls out in SS/PS on Privet Drive. Also, JKR has confirmed Ron's eyes are blue, like Dumbledore's. Dumbledore also mentioned his scar on his knee that was an exact map of the London underground - a relic of his encounter with Padfoot, perhaps? Obviously, in this case, Dumbledore's family and the Weasley family would be one in the same. Perhaps Ron and one of his brothers will actually go back, "creating" Aberforth. Also, in the rumors section of JKR's site, she said that Harry and Ron weren't any other character "from the future," not that Harry or Ron won't necessarily time travel back into the past. vmonte responds: JKR killed the Ron=DD theory months ago. I do think however that there is a connection. I think that Harry will find out that the Weasley's and Dumbledore are directly related to Godric Gryffindor. I think that the chess game in PS/SS is important because it foreshadows the war to come. I believe that Ron represented a "symbolic" (not actual) representation of Dumbledore, or rather the Gryffindor blood-line. I do think that the symbolism is important because I think that Harry will eventually read about the heirs of Gryffindor in the genealogy book that is still at Sirius house. I believe that Harry will be impressed by this, because unlike Riddle, who likes to flaunt his lineage in everyone's face, the Weasley's and Dumbledore do not. For them it's the character of the person that is important, not their blood-line. Oh yeah, about that watch. Dumbledore's arm was withered and dying in the last book. He couldn't really wear that watch anymore could he? I bet he gave it to the Weasley's to give to Ron. Vivian From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 11:06:31 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:06:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134544 Wanda wrote: > No, this theory posits that Slytherin's locket never was in the basin > in the first place. Voldemort put the false locket there himself, > when he first prepared the Horcrux, and Dumbledore is the first person > to find it. How Slytherin's real locket ended up at Grimmauld Place > is not yet clear, but Regulus Black is, I believe, a red herring, who > has nothing to do with the Horcrux. > Lawless replies: Interesting idea. I myself wondered if the potion was indeed the Horcrux when we first read about it - however, if you look back into the earlier books, even to the beginning of this book, the handwriting of the RAB note does not match Dumbledore's writing. They seem to be very particular with handwriting in the series - characters will always keep the same handwriting in each note posted to Harry. Of course, Dumbledore could have changed the handwriting, but that doesn't really make much sense if he WANTS Voldemort to know, eh? (Or else why write the note at all?) "ES: It seems like it would be impossible. If Harry had gone to the cave, he never could have done it on his own, it seems like. JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books. " By books, it would be assumed that she meant a book other than HBP, since that was the one they were specifically talking about at the time - so why put it in plural tense? So the hint about another horcrux in the books leads to believe that it is the locket, since we only know about it, the cup, the ring (destroyed) and Nagini (possible). But it is an interesting idea, nonetheless. There was something about that potion... --Lawless From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 07:13:26 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:13:26 -0000 Subject: Fake AK Theory (and what lies ahead) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134546 I'm greatly intrigued by all the fake AK theory. I do believe myself that the hate that Snape had to have in order to use this curse effectively was his hate of the Task (the task to kill the wizard who trusted him... the wizard who saved him) and his hate of Voldemort. I rather think that the arguing that Hagrid overheard was about DD telling Snape what he Must do in order to protect Draco and allow Harry to get on with his own greater future task. As I believe from OotP, one must really have enough hate to use an unforgivable curse. So, instead of thinking that it was a fake AK, my gut feeling is that it was real. I am most intrigued by the thought that Snape could really truly hate Voldemort. I find myself now wondering if Young Death Eater Snape asked Voldemort to to kill James and the child but to spare Lily, the former fellow potions star that Snape, if even delusional, thought he might have a chance with if James was out of the way. Since Lily died, perhaps Snape is biding his time and waiting to get his big chance to avenge Lily's death. I just hope we don't end up with some clich? ending where Snape dies and everyone finds out he really WAS good, much like Sirius died and the ministry realises he was innocent. I think that, by using AK, Snape made a good show for the death eaters...just like he made a good show for Bellatrix, giving all appearance that he was acting in the way their Dark Lord's loyal servant would. Just as Snape could have used a nonverbal spell against Dumbledore, Dumbledore could have nonverbally Blocked him if he were really not doing exactly what Dumbledore wished him to (again going back to what they argued about earlier). I took the silence between them to be some Legilimency and perhaps even Snape using Occlumency, which is why Dumbledore may have needed to verbally plead with Snape. Snape running off with Malfoy -- I believe the death eaters probably assumed that Their Man Snape was taking Draco to Voldemort and saying, "This Coward could not do you task and I had to do it for him..." or something to that extent, but I don't think so. (Also, I believe I have posted earlier that I think if Snape were ESE and really going to Voldemort, with Dumbledore out of the way he would have taken Harry with him). I have been asking myself, however, "Where would Snape take Draco?" Again, I am thinking on the assumption that Snape is NOT ESE.... and I am hoping he is taking Draco somewhere to reunite him with his mother and come up with some sort of plan for protection and salvation. Has anyone else thought that where Snape would be taking Draco may not be to Voldemort? Marianne S From viqui2 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 09:56:14 2005 From: viqui2 at aol.com (viqui2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:56:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom, evil, choices Message-ID: <1c2.2d2c8fe9.3014bfbe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134547 As a mental health professional, it seems likely that Tom is a psychopath (as opposed to being psychotic - a completely different condition). Characteristics of a psychopath include a deficiency of conscience/lack of empathy for others. There is a therory that personality disorders tend to be enforced by events/interventions at key stages of development. A very young child is essentially egocentric - their needs are paramount (e.g. nourishment, attention) and the child will use all their available strategies to fulfil their needs. As the child develops it learns, through human contact, more advanced ways of fulfilling need and regard for the needs and feelings of others. The child is able to prioritise need in the light of that of others. Through example it learns good and bad, and develops onscience in the reflection of the needs and feelings of others (empathy). A psychopath has often not had the opportunity for such development. In Tom's case, lacking close human contact and being unable to bond with a mother figure (thus unable to develop a trusting relationship with unconditional love) has kept him at the egocentric stage of development without forming empathy for others or conscience. He therefore believes that others exist purely to fulfil his needs however this may be brought about. Being shown love later in life therefore could be irrelevant to Tom - he has not experienced love therefore doesn't understand it. Those that show him love are likely to be exploited - in Tom's world these people could be seen as 'mugs' who can be used as stepping stones in his ultimate goal. If this is the case, Tom's personality and life experience prevent him from understanding that there is a choice. His outlook on life would be black and white, with no 'good or evil', just means to an end. He has learned that intimidation and fear get him his own way, therefore that is what he does. Sorry if this doesn't make much sence, I've only just woken up! Also sorry for lack of referencing - I haven't got my stuff with me! Viqui [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leslie41 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 08:03:30 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:03:30 -0000 Subject: Spinner's "end" and Snape in PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134548 One other interpretation of "Spinner's End": the word "end" doesn't just mean "termination." It also can mean goal...that is... "the state of affairs that a plan is intended to achieve and that (when achieved) terminates behavior intended to achieve it; "the ends justify the means" Makes ya think. As for Snape supposedly knowing that Sirius was innocent, and about Pettigrew, that one scene in the Shrieking Shack reveals that Rowling has been playing with our heads about Snape for years and years. Go back and read PoA, carefully. When Snape finally uncloaks at the Shrieking Shack, even if he's been listening to everything that happened since everyone first arrived, there's no reason to think he should believe the story that's been told up to that point by Remus and Sirius. Even Hermoine and Harry aren't convinced of it. Lupin tells Snape "you haven't heard everything." And if all he heard was the end of the conversation, what he would have heard was Lupin telling the kids about "the prank," to which Sirius sneers and replies: "it served him right." Black's not sorry about nearly killing Snape at all, all those years ago. So why, why oh why should Snape believe anything that he or Lupin says at that point? He didn't see Peter Pettigrew get pulled into the whomping willow on the map. *Lupin* saw that. And he's not conscious when Pettigrew transforms. He doesn't witness anything at all that would incline him to believe what Sirius Black says. If he witnesses anything it's his old nemesis professing utter contempt for him, and an absolute lack of remorse at perpetrating a terrible trick that nearly killed Snape long before. I didn't examine this passage carefully until just before HBP came out. But Rowling is very specific. Snape, who has gone to Lupin's office, by the way, to give him the potion that he has forgotten to take, sees Lupin--not Pettigrew--running along the passage on the Marauder's map. Of course, you could say he's "just saying that" to make it seem he doesn't know, but why the hell would he do that? He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone at this point. He doesn't have to say anything. He's found Sirius Black. You will note as well that Snape's *unconcious* when Pettigrew transforms. He has no factual reason to believe the story that's been told to him by Harry, or anyone else. The only "fact" he knows is that his old nemesis is back and seems as hateful as ever. She's a clever woman. You can't tie anything to Snape. Aside from snarky, mean-spirited and often cruel *comments*, there's always another interpretation for everything he does. When you read PoA, you THINK that Rowling is showing us how hateful Snape is at the end. But it's all through Harry's perspective. Give things a quarter turn, and look at them from Snape's, and his actions are eminently reasonable. In fact, it could be said that he's the aggrieved party. -Leslie From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 24 11:26:42 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:26:42 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts and speculations after rereading JKR's interview on Leaky and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Now, I am very fond of speculation that Snape figured out who Remus > was before he went to the Shack, but I could never come up with the > reason why Snape may want to hurt Remus or even kill him. > > Jealousy sounds like a great reason to me. I'm now sure Snape knew. JKR said in that same interview that pensieve memories are true memories. Remus as much as says, in Snape's Worst Memory, that he's a werewolf. (I still have a problem with this pensieve memory stuff - I can buy that the memory is a true account not subject to a person's biases, but how did Snape, writing away at his test, see James doodling 'L.E.' on his paper?) We know that this was fifth year (O.W.L. year) and I'll make the assumption that this was pre-Prank, as Snape says Sirius was 16 years old when the Prank happened. Sixteen was also Sirius' age when he left his family. I'm betting that these two events happened the year following the Pensieve memory. Marianne From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 24 11:30:43 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:30:43 -0400 Subject: Movie Contamination in HBP/Draco's Hand of Glory/Stan Shunpike/Wormtail's hand a horcrux Message-ID: <001401c59043$210f0c10$99c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134550 I've been looking through POA for Ron's reference about Draco's Hand of Glory but I can't find it. I did, however, find a quote from JKR at Quick Quotes: "Question: Did you ever make a study of herbs and other Hogwarts subjects, or did you create all those classes from inspiration? J.K. Rowling responds: Most of the magic is made up. Occasionally I will use something that people used to believe was true - for example, the "Hand of Glory" which Draco gets from Borgin and Burkes in Chamber of Secrets." This is from an interview on 16 Oct 2000 with Schoolastic. So obviously, he does have it. Just for the record that's the first time the search at Quick Quotes has ever come through for me. ------------------- Most horribly, I have found movie contamination in HBP. In POA we have this: "Hermione got there first - SMACK! She had *slapped* Malfoy around the face with all the strength she could muster. Malfoy staggered. Harry, Ron, Crabbe and Goyle stood flabbergasted as Hermione raised her hand again." ( pg 216 Can Ed) But then in HBP it says "Malfoy looked rather like he had done the time Hermione *punched* him in the face." (pg 176 Can Ed) She only punched him in the movie version. --------------------- Sherry asked: "Has anyone else noticed how much Stan Shunpike has been mentioned? We find out in book three that he is a conducter. He is seen trying to get the Vela's attention in book four, then back to conducter for book five. Now in book six, he is mentioned several times. It just seemed odd to me that he is mention so regularly when Dedalus Diggle is a member of the Order, and is hardly ever mentioned. Anyone have some speculation?" No speculation, but I did notice that Stan was arrested at his home in Clapham which is also where Sturgis Podmore lives according to OotP (pg 258 Can ed) "Trespass at the Ministry. Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham, ... charged with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry." I wondered if there is some kind of connection although I have no idea what it would be. We've also heard virtually nothing, since their introduction to Harry in "The Advance Guard" chapter of OotP, of Elphias Dodge or Hestia Jones. Diggle was mentioned by McGonagall in PS and, if I recall HP actually met him at the Leaky Cauldron in that book, and recognized him from seeing him on the street. ---------------------- Chys: said: "it after he killed Cedric, and it wouldn't be like putting your soul into something, more like transfiguring it into a metal hand?" LV didn't kill Cedric, Wormtail did with LV's wand. It would be Wormtail's soul that split here, not LV's. CathyD DuffyPoo - using up her quota for the day already... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 07:54:18 2005 From: snipsnapsnurr at yahoo.com (snipsnapsnurr) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 07:54:18 -0000 Subject: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134551 Tonks wrote: > There are many ways that this could play out. > > 1. LV could be so happy about DD's death the he just forgets > about Draco and starts planning for the big move on Harry. > > 2. Draco is still in big trouble and Snape took him to his mother > and Narcissa and Draco go into hiding somewhere that only Snape > knows about. The problem with this is that there are 4 other DE > that know that Draco was last seen with Snape, so this probably > would not work. > > 3. LV is not happy with Draco, but Snape somehow talks him out of > any retaliation, by dismissing Draco as a inexperienced child. > Then LV may not punish Draco, but will expect him to kill someone > next year when he is officially a man. > > 4. This is far out, but LV sent Narcissa to Snape to test Snape. > Bella did not know about it, she thought Narcissa was acting on > her own. Draco was never in any harm from LV, LV wanted to see if > Snape would actually kill DD and thus prove his loyality to LV. > > I tend to think that number 1 or 3 are the most likely. See, thats why I like this forum. Here I am accusing other people of logical fallacies when really my own theories are full of holes. I have been thinking that Snape would somehow continue to be a spy for the Phoenicians with even more trust than before since he killed Dumbledore. I had completely missed the fact that if he shows up back at Voldemort's shop without Draco, there will be a lot of difficult questions he will have to answer. And if he shows up with Draco, Draco is pretty much screwed. When I say Draco is screwed, by the way, I don't mean that Voldemort will kill him. There was never a penalty mentioned for Draco if he failed in his task. It was just sort of assumed that if he failed he would wind up dead anyway. I think Voldemort would offer him status and honors for getting as close as he did and Draco would eat that up. He would become an enthusiastic DE. Would Snape allow Draco to be put in that situation? I don't know. I think Snape is basically a nihilist. He doesn't care what happens to anyone else. I do think he wants Voldemort destroyed though, more than anything. It occurs to me that Snape is sort of the opposite of the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy says to the great and powerful Oz "We came here because we heard you were a good man. but you aren't. You're a bad man." Oz replies "No, I'm not a bad man. Really, I'm a good man. I'm just. . . a very bad wizard." In Snape's case it goes like this: "Snape, you're an evil wizard!" "No, I'm not an evil wizard. Really, I'm a good wizard. I'm just. . . a very evil man." snipsnapsnurr From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Jul 24 11:36:27 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:36:27 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002" wrote: > **Marcela now: This would only apply if Trelawney knew that she'd > made two real prophecies. The fact of the matter is that she > doesn't remember making any of them. She might not remember them, but she has some type of memory of the incidents which is why she's able to tell Harry that it was Snape who interrupted. If you want to get into psychological theories, Trelawney's behavior is reminiscent of someone with PTSD (post- traumatic stress disorder)---they remember the events leading up to and after, but don't remember the actual traumatic event. And unfortunately, they continue to suffer from it. > I don't think that we can excuse Trelawney's liking for the bottle > to that. I'm not attempting to excuse her behavior in anyway. I am merely offering another avenue to explain it, in light of Rowling's MacB Witches statement. >Trelawney started smelling like sherry in OoTP, when she > was under the pressure of Umbridge's probation time and then got > chucked out -but saved by Dumbledore. Harry never smelled any sherry > aroung her in PoA and GoF. > Then in HBP, we see her continuing with the sherry because she was > discontent with Firenze and their sharing the students Divination > classes. And finally, perhaps because Dumbledore was not taking > heed of her card reading and/or her complaints about Firenze's > classes. Ever since OoTP and Umbridge, Trelawney's little world > started falling apart... Yes,and this time period also corresponds with the second prophecy and with the return of Voldemort. The mind is a wonderfully mysterious thing. I've known of people who've gotten "stressed out" as their children reach certain ages because at that time in their childhood, something 'traumatic' happened to them and their adult stress is a manifestation of their anxieties. >If Hogwarts remains opened in HP7 wiht > McGonagall in charge, I can only see McG sparing Trelawney because > of Dumbledore's previous attachment to the Divination teacher, not > because she'd think that Trelawney was a necessary teacher at > Hogwarts. McG has Dumbledore's portrait to give her guidance at this point. Moreover, she has Dumbledore's penseive. So, she'll probably keep Trelawney at the school for those reasons---and once she finds out the Trelawney does have some powers, I hope she'll be partaking a big piece of humble pie. > And, to go even further with speculation -or clairvoyance , I'd > say that Trelawney's choice of sherry might get upgraded for > something a bit heartier than that... Funnily enough, I wonder if Jo > will keep her around, this character has surely done some very good > predictions so far, :D >anthyroserain: >Something that amuses me is that even though we're told Trelawney is >bad at divination, all evidence seems to indicate she is one hell of a >seer. Not only are there her two big, dramatic prophecies (one of >which is surely the greatest in the wizarding world for some time), >there are her minor predictions, like the reappearance of the Grim in >POA and her cartomancy in HBP. Sure, she misreads the omens, but the >omens show up for her nonetheless. Yet she gets NO respect... poor >woman, no wonder she's taken to drink! Yes, Trelawney does suffer. But it's an example of academic rivalry that some subjects are "better" than others because they use a "scientific method" and have statistics to back them up. Unfortunately, statistics can be manipulated and the "scientific method" can be flawed---these aren't things most academics take into serious consideration. Milz From samwisep at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 10:28:30 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:28:30 -0000 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134553 Amanda wrote: "PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD" and "The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know it anymore.*" First let me say, that that is a BRILLIANT theory, really excellent and well thought out. But what occured to me is, if you no longer have the memory, how could you remember to look for it later? Because, you wouldn't know what you were looking for when you needed it later, would you? snapeo'phile From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 12:20:22 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:20:22 -0000 Subject: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snipsnapsnurr" > > SNIP And if he shows up with Draco, Draco is pretty much screwed. When I say Draco is screwed, by the way, I don't mean that Voldemort will kill him. There was never a penalty mentioned for Draco if he failed in his task. It was just sort of assumed that if he failed he would wind up dead anyway. I think Voldemort would offer him status and honors for getting as close as he did and Draco would eat that up. He would become an enthusiastic DE. SNIP --- Inge: HBP, The Lightning-Struck Tower, p 552, Bloomsbury: (Dumbledore):"..I can help you, Draco." "No, you can't," said Malfy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choise." So, in fact there was a penalty for Draco if he failed. Death penalty. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 24 12:35:24 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:35:24 +0100 Subject: Grindlewald and Horcruxes Message-ID: <42E38B0C.90308@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134555 I've long suspected the Tom Riddle went off seeking Grindlewald when he left Hogwarts. It now seems that although Slughorn gave Riddle general information about Horcruxes, he could not (would not?) give him the specific spell needed to encase the ripped soul fragment in an object. So where do you suppose Tom obtained this knowledge? Where better to seek it than from the most famous Dark Wizard of the age, Grindlewald? My first prediction (hope) for book seven, is that we will learn more about Grindlewald's meetings with Tom Riddle. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005 From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jul 24 12:34:49 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:34:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's or Lily's Handwriting? (RE: Rosmerta and EstherS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134556 In a message dated 7/24/2005 7:02:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, maliksthong at yahoo.com writes: Why didn't Harry recognize the handwriting? Did he? Handwriting doesn't change that much over time. ------------ Sherrie here: It can - my handwriting certainly has changed since I was a teenager! Sometimes by conscious decision (when I learned calligraphy, Cyrillic and some older scripts, I consciously decided to import some elements, as it were), sometimes by circumstance (carpal tunnel, & the surgery to correct it, & now the early stages of arthritis). Even a different pen can alter handwriting slightly - different size or cut of nib, e.g. But personally, I think Harry just hasn't paid enough attention to Snape's handwriting before - I can't recall it ever being mentioned that he reads any of Snape's comments on his essays, just the grade. Did Hermione ever see the book? If anyone was going to recognize the handwriting as Snape's, she would be my candidate. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladinechan at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 11:36:16 2005 From: ladinechan at hotmail.com (comomegusta6) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:36:16 -0000 Subject: Prank on Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134557 Casmir wrote: > Has anyone thought that there was more to the prank played on Snape by > Sirius, regarding Remus at a full moon in the Shrieking shack; from > which James saved Snape? > > Theories anyone? Perhaps one theory is that it may have had something > to do with Lily? (I am open and undecided about the whole Snape/Lily > thing.) > > I just get this feeling that JKR gave us that particular memory for a > reason beyond showing mutual malice between James & gang and Snape. I think that Lily has *everything* to do with *everything*. As I posted yesterday, I'm a bit surprised that everybody thinks it was Snape who had a crush on Lily. Probably. But, does anybody else (apart from me) think that Lily could have had a bad boy syndrome too? I'm not stating that she had to be in love with him, or something. Maybe she wanted to be friends with him. She seems to be the kind of girl who takes pity on people like Snape and so, she could have tried to know him better, to give him an opportunity. I also have the intuition that there's something of Lily in Snape's book, maybe some of the annotations are the results of their working together. Two excelent potion-makers in the same year? the Slug Club? And the way that Slughorn describes Lily? She was an intuitive and clever girl, qualities that Snape would appreciate without any doubt. And the nickname Half-Blood Prince, that so proudly pronounces Snape in front of Harry, don't you think it would be the kind of nickname, that Lily would use to call Snape, half-jokingly, half-fondly? And if the joke that Sirius played on Snape (and we don't know if they spoke face to face or not) had an imaginary date with Lily in the SS...? Or something like that? I think that there's usually more rage and more remorse if you break with someone and then you think it was a mistake than when the other person breaks with you. Add the fact that Lily is dead, that she sacrified herself for Harry, and that Snape is partially culpable for it... Don't you think it is a way of explaining his bitterness? Silver (a non native English speaker, so sorry if this is a bit messy) From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Sun Jul 24 12:13:27 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:13:27 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134558 Marcela wrote: > > >If Hogwarts remains opened in HP7 wiht > > McGonagall in charge, I can only see McG sparing Trelawney because > > of Dumbledore's previous attachment to the Divination teacher, not > > because she'd think that Trelawney was a necessary teacher at > > Hogwarts. > Dumbledore may have kept her at Hogwarts for her own protection. It was always obvious that someone overheard the prophecy, we now know this to have been Snape, and he will no doubt have thought that she was far safer at Hogwarts than being left to the mercy of LV who would be aware that he could possibly 'extract' the memory from her mind directly without her haveing to consciously remember it. "wapp13" From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 12:40:51 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724124051.58101.qmail@web54707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134559 Sbrtnzky wrote: Harry has definitely improved from the last book, and has become the kind of hero who is capable of going on that quest. (Oh, that scene in the cave, where he is having to take DD through that agony! I got a lump in the throat! The earlier Harry couldn't have done this task) Possibly he's made a mistake in turning down Ginny's love - he needs all the love he can get, and, let's face it, all LV needs to do is attack any member of the Weasley family, not just his girlfriend. My reply: I completely disagree with this well actually it doesn't matter to me if he is with Ginny or not but he has plenty of love! I can't imagine the love that Ginny has for him being stronger than that of Ron or Hermione at least not yet! ~Melanie --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 24 10:27:16 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:27:16 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134560 I think everyone's trying to find too many layers with this horcrux business. It's highly unlikely that JKR has structured the seven part series so Harry has to kill himself (or Ginny for that matter). "Clementine" From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 12:55:53 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:55:53 -0000 Subject: Possibilities surrounding Nonverbal spells (esp. re: Snape w/ DD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about NONVERBAL spells lately. > > [snip] > > All this emphasis on nonverbal spells has me thinking. Since the > textbook was Snape's since Snape is now one of the teachers > stressing nonverbal spells I'm assuming managing nonverbal spells > is something Snape is fairly good at himself. > > [snip] > > All of this raises an even greater question for me, re: Snape on the > astronomy tower with DD. And here is that question: IF one is > accomplished at performing nonverbal spells, is it possible to > perform a nonverbal spell while *simultaneously* speaking the > incantation for another spell? IOW, can a highly talented wizard > manage to concentrate so hard upon a nonverbal incantation, that he > SUCCEEDS at it, even while speaking another spell which does NOT > come to fruition? > > Could Snape have been performing a spell *other* than AK, while > speaking an "Avada Kedavra" which did not take because it > was "overpowered" by whatever nonverbal spell Snape was > concentrating on? > > Yes, I know ? the jet of light emanating from Snape's wand *was* > green, as one would expect with an AK. But is it possible that he > was thinking something else, actually performing something else? Is > there any other spell which produces a green jet of light? > > Not saying I buy this at all. Actually, I'm in the camp which > believes Snape was following DD's orders in killing him ? to > simultaneously save Draco from murder, release DD into the death > which was coming anyway from the potion, and to save Snape from > breaking his Unbreakable Vow. But many of us suspect some mutual > legillimency in that brief stare between DD & Snape. Could there > have been instruction to Snape about what to do in that moment? I > like the possibility of this. > > Any thoughts?? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Lorel responds: I'm sure that Snape is much more skilled at nonverbal spells than the typical wizard, probably in great part due to his ability to focus his mind as a highly accomplished Occlumens. I have no doubt that Snape is powerful enough to AK nonverbally, and would indeed be able to say the words to the killing spell while actually casting another. Why say "Avada Kedavra" when you don't need to, unless it's to be sure that you're heard saying it? From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 13:06:56 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:06:56 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > I apologize if this has already been posted; I have not found it > anywhere, although I admit I have not entirely kept up with all of the > discussion since HBP came out. > > Anyway -- I have seen much posted regarding the possibility that the > seventh bit of Voldemort's soul was placed inside Harry at the time of > the failed AK, and that this will be the reason why Harry must die at > the end of Book 7 in order to kill Voldemort. > > My question is this: is it possible that part of Voldemort's soul > *was* in Harry, but that Voldemort unwittingly reunited this part with > himself when he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in the > graveyard in GOF? This would explain Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" > at hearing that Voldemort had used Harry's blood. > > Just a thought I had earlier today. Any thoughts? > > --Cory Lorel responds: I like this idea! Yes, it would explain DD's gleam very well. Alternatively, it had occurred to me today that perhaps if Harry is a Horcrux, he will experience something similar to the events at the DoM: as Harry prepares to sacrifice himself out of love, that part of LV's soul still within him flees, unable to coexist with the strong emotion. This would pull in the idea of the power of love. I like your idea better, though. :) From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:48:06 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:48:06 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134563 Tonks wrote did not like Fleur before, but that scene in the hospital was great. She is a good woman after all From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:55:55 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:55:55 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134564 Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant (both qualities she has been displaying throughout). Molly is his MOTHER, woman! Shehas known and loved him a damn sight longer than you have. You could have exercised a little tact, instead of flaunting your right to be the most important woman in Bill's life. Molly is a lot more forgiving than I would have been. Let's hear it from those who have beloved sons. Would YOU want Fleur as a daughter-in-law? Sylvia (who has two lovely daughters-in-law, both blessed with tact and kindness) From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:57:31 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:57:31 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134565 Sorry, hit the wrong button. Please ignore first message. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 14:07:48 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:07:48 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134566 > > Melissa, in fact, tries to clarify by asking: > > > > "MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever > > gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - > > > > JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular > > way." > Saraquel: > I took it to mean that no-one has sacrificed themselves for someone > who is the oject of a Horcrux attempt. DD says to Harry (UK Ed > p473, ch23) "I am sure that he was intending to make his final > Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." Which implies to > me that the curse which he used to try and kill Harry was somehow > more than a straightforward AK curse, it also had something else > bound into it that was designed to create the Horcrux. > Valky: I find it hard to understand how we might extrapolate intentional Horcrux Harry from "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death......" If he was making a Horcrux of Harry in this case, then DD is wrong altogether, or he is supposing that Voldemort intended "Harry's Dead Body" for a Horcrux which is weird but, I suppose, possible. However, in any case I'd like to explore an alternative while we are at it. Jo also said in this interview (among many other things which it has taken me a while to process) that Dumbledore laid many clues for Harry in HBP and throughout the series. From that, I get the feeling that we should be working more from an assumption that DD was right, and essentially, clear in what he was saying in HBP. (And one other thing about the conclusion that Harry is a Horcrux in proof by virtue of his scar.. Does Nagini have a scar too? I don't have my copy of GOF.. (please don't ask, I am too, too patient sometimes) so I can't check to be sure. However, I really don't think Nagini has a scar or a symbol of Voldemort on her self. Which leads me to believe that Harry's scar makes him not a Horcrux case simplex, but a complex exception of sorts.) There are also several reasons why I think DD's clues are actually leading Harry into a different direction about the events of Godrics Hollow. They are: Nagini: - Voldemort is *shiver* /fond/ of Nagini, she is his companion. She is a *living* Horcrux. She was the chosen replacement for the /failed/ GH Horcrux attempt. She is a SHE. The Prophecy:- The Prophecy applies to Voldie because he *makes* it apply. The Prophecy says Voldie *marked his equal* at Godrics Hollow. Harry was marked as Voldies equal. A Failed AK does not necessarily equal a mark of equality. General:- We still don't know why the AK failed, exactly. Jo gives a very large hint that specific circumstances made it happen. DD says that living Horcruxes are hard to control, risky. Harry, Nagini and Voldemort share a connection that Voldie doesn't have with his other Horcruxes. Adding things up in some manner we have the events of Godrics Hollow looking a bit like this: Voldie intended to make a Horcrux using the soul splitting murder of Harry as a tool. He tried to Kill Harry but ended up marking him his equal. Somewhere between here and there he lost the Horcrux because he had to replace it. He chose a living Horcrux to replace it - tending to indicate that a living Horcrux was always intended. A she-mate living Horcrux - tending to indicate that a she-mate may have been intended. Harry, Nagini and Voldemort are all like the same being - but in esscence divided - Equals? All according to DD :- Voldemort would have succeeded if it weren't for Lily, therefore his risk was Lily. Living Horcruxes are a risk. So wobbling around on these premises somewhere is an ugly disturbing hypothesis.. Voldie went to Godrics Hollow to kill Harry and use the event to make Lily a living, Horcrux, equal she-mate... Like Nagini.. Make her an offer she can't refuse.. and she'll step aside.. perhaps. Ok, when you're finished throwing up.. I'll continue. Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and left a lingering protection thereby. Harry's blood connection to Lily extended the protection to him.When Voldemort took Harry's blood he thought he was actually, bypassing the protection left by Lily's sacrifice, but DD thought otherwise. So lets assume that Voldie waltzed into GH and offered Lily the world at her feet, the sharing of equal power with the ruler of the world, the path to her own immortality etc etc. And she said "No thanks I'll keep my baby boy instead." What happened then? Well we could glean a scenario from somewhere. Let's say the DADA position.. Dumbledore said "No thanks Voldie." and in return Voldie cursed Dumbledores DADA class, suffice to say he didn't like taking "No" for an answer. So perhaps he cursed Lily... hmmm. Lets take another scenario.. what about the Hufflepuff/Slytherin relics, he couldn't have them either.. but they were relics, he had his heart set on them.. so what did he do? He killed her and took them. Hmm so these relic things he wants for horcruxes, he'll try to take them by force.. Maybe that's what he did with the DADA position too. Would the curse have lifted if Dumbledore gave in and gave Voldie the DADA job? Yeah likely.. he'd want to stay more than a year I'd suppose. Soo the pattern emerges.. If Voldemort doesn't get what he wants.. he takes it by force. Lets have one more scenario shall we.. the Graveyard, Voldemort wants to duel Harry and kill him. Harry doesn't really want to do that.. What does Voldemort do? "Imperio.. do as I say.." Yeah taking it by force is the pattern of behaviour, and if Voldie wanted a Horcrux, an equal, a mate at Godrics Hollow, then he maybe tried to take it by force too. Why not? His Mother did. So assuming all I have assumed so far, Voldemort will tell Lily to get out of the way he's gonna do it anyway. So what does he do now.. ? Lets go back to the battle in the MOM.. 1. Voldemort sends an Avada Kedavra at Harry, and Harry's mind is blank his wand points uselessly at the floor. 2. Dumbledore vanishes the snake and froze LV in a cocoon of water. Two spells at once appear to be possible. So could Voldemort have tried to do double magic at Godrics Hollow? He points an Avada Kedavra at Baby Harry, a finisher. And at Lily he points the little Horcrux experiment he had in mind.. equal-connected-horcrux. Lily jumps in front of the Avada Kedavra and she dies. Sometime after this happens Voldemort's body is dead, Harry is scarred and has collected some of Voldemorts powers in the process. So the final Hypothesis. The transfer of powers and the mark of equality were a result deliberate efforts by Voldemort to secure himself a final Living Horcrux, an ultimate demonstration of his unmatched power. How Harry ended up with them is anybody's guess. Why Harrys Muggleborn Mother, who knows? Voldies Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Just one more thought before I leave off my incessant rambling about this topic.. Voldemort wanted his Horcruxes to have the Founders objects surrounding and protecting them. Is Godrics Hollow itself a Hogwarts Founders object? Valky From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 14:15:25 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:15:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] I still dont like Fleur Message-ID: <14.49d43b2a.3014fc7d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134567 In a message dated 7/24/2005 8:49:44 AM Central Standard Time, rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk writes: Tonks wrote did not like Fleur before, but that scene in the hospital was great. She is a good woman after all I totally agree. IMO that was also one of the reasons that she was chosen to be a champion by the GOF. It wasn't just magical ability but what was also on the 'inside.' Molly, Ginny and Hermione were treating her badly. It might not have been to her face but I am sure that she sensed the hostility. Melissa. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 14:22:48 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:22:48 -0000 Subject: In Essense Divided Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134568 This has probably been brought up already - the posts keep coming in though and it's hard to keep up. Are we to assume that Dumbledore's "In essense divided"-comment in OOTP has now been clarified? That he refers to Voldemort/Nagini because he suspected a part of Nagini to be part of Voldemort - a Horcrux? From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun Jul 24 13:03:37 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:03:37 -0000 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I do like the fact that Tonks got her man! That brings me some > comfort. I like Lupin. He is a kind, loving man. And I always did > like older men. ;-) So I approve of this match. I liked the scene > where Arthur is talking to Lupin. I liked that a lot. > > There were parts early on where I was really mad at Harry. I found > myself talking to him like "Harry, you fool!! All these people > risking their life for you and what do you do! First chance you > get, you sneak off to Knockturn Alley of all places! Have you > learned nothing?!!" Chuckle. Harry certainly doesn't live his life to please other people. Good for him! The fact is, I don't think Harry will ever act the way a lot of people seem to want him to act. It wouldn't be consistent with his nature. It also wouldn't be consistent with being the hero of the story, which is more to the literary point. > > And then when he gets this theory of Draco being a DE, I said "oh > Harry, for god sakes, just *when* I ask you, have you *ever* been > right about any of these things!! And here you go again!!" Well, he was right this time, wasn't he? Draco WAS a DE, or working for them which is the same thing from a practical point of view. He may well have been right about Snape all along as well. The fact is that when it comes to practical judgments about people, Harry may be shown to have had a clearer vision and a more practical wisdom than the isolated and too-ready-to-trust Dumbledore. > > But he was OK later. It was a bit odd that he didn't process his > grief over Sirius more, but we really didn't have time for that and > he *dealt* with it by projecting all the blame onto Snape. So at > least that gave us an explanation instead of just leaving it hanging. > > I like Snape even more, as odd as that might seem. You have to > admire the man whatever side he is on. He is very intelligent, can > worm his way out of almost anything, and can take control of any > situation. Like others here have said Snape is a man of honor. He > followed through on the vow and if he did have a *deal* with DD to > kill him if things went very wrong and his cover would be blow, well > he did the hard thing and did it well. (I think that he is still > DD's man. If DD said Snape is OK, I will take DD's word for it.) I > liked the second chapter and seeing the sisters and Snape as human > beings. The bad guys are just like the rest of us. They love their > family and children, they have a drink with friends, etc. The only > difference is as JKR would say is the choices that they make. > Except for Voldemort himself, who seems to have been twisted and evil from birth. Shrug. It happens, I suppose. Lupinlore From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 15:18:12 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:18:12 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134570 First of all, I want to thank Viqui very much for giving her professional input about psychopaths. It supports my own very amateurish understanding of the subject and of Tom Riddle. Now to answer some particular points raised by Juli and Iris. Iris wrote: "Maybe Tom wasn't given love when he was in his first years, and I acknowledge this is something very important in the character's psychology. However, he met dumbledore, he was his student. Dumbledore is the kind of teacher that loves his students, and since their first meeting, he tried to correct young Tom's bad tendencies." Del replies: Humph, DD... As many have noted before, DD is someone who hardly expresses his feelings. Even with Harry, he is always remarkably self-restrained. Now Harry knows how to pick up clues, so he came to the conclusion that DD cares about him. But Tom wouldn't have. As Viqui explained, not having been given love early in life might have blocked Tom's "love receptors". From then on, no matter how much love he was given, he would simply not understand or feel it. My best clue that this is the case is that JKR said that LV never loved anyone, and that he couldn't have become LV if he had. "Never loved anyone". Even as a kid. She's not talking about having a loving relationship with someone, or anything like that. She's talking about having feelings of love for someone, whether reciprocated or not. Tom never experienced those feelings. This to me indicates that he simply doesn't KNOW love. Love is something that is completely alien to him, and always was. He recognises *intellectually* when someone loves him, I even believe that he plays with that love, that he deliberately tries to create it in people. But he doesn't understand it *emotionally*. He seems to consider it a weakness, that only fools can feel, and he's no fool in his idea. Moreover, I'm afraid DD burned his ships right away with his little demonstration of power. IMO DD made 3 major mistakes. 1. He showed no acceptance and understanding for what Tom was *at that time*. That's one of the basic steps of giving love: accepting people *as they are*. DD didn't do that, quite the opposite: he told Tom that he had to change in order to be accepted. *Major* mistake IMO! 2. He *forcefully* made Tom comply to what he (DD) expected. By so doing, he actually *reinforced* Tom's previous understanding of the rules of life: the biggest bully gets to make the rules. Another major mistake. 3. And finally, he didn't follow through. Instead of actively trying to get closer to Tom and to give him better morals, he instead sat back and let Tom get involved with the wrong crowd. So no, I definitely do not consider that DD helped Tom in any way. And in particular, he did NOT show him love. Not that Tom could have received it anyway... Iris wrote: "However, Tom had examples of Good and of Love; he had a conscience: he could choose them instead of becoming Lord Voldemort." Del replies: As Viqui explained and as I understand it too, it is not sure that psychopaths actually have what we call a conscience, a sense of Good and Evil. In that case, no matter how many examples of Good and Evil they are shown, they are simply unable to realise *for themselves* what the concepts of Good and Evil are and why they matter. They can and do understand what *other people* call Good and Evil, and they usually learn soon enough that doing what other people call Evil or wrong will bring harsh consequences, but that's about it. So once they stop caring about the consequences, they have *nothing* to restrain them anymore. As long as Tom was in school or at work, he pretended to comply with the rules, in order to avoid being expelled or fired. But those rules were silly, arbitrary and pointless for him: he didn't understand what they were based on. Iris wrote: "Or was he lost from the start? Do our first months determinate our life so definitely that it becomes impossible to change it regarding some aspects? Are we given so little choice?" Del replies: >From what I understand, it takes several factors to "make" a psychopath: an inborn predisposition, the wrong kind of upbringing, and the wrong opportunities to do evil. Tom most probably had all 3 of them. Considering his family, it is possible that he was born with a less able-to-love personality than most. Then he never was given a chance to bond as an infant, nor did he receive second chances in his early childhood (the idea of an entire orphanage being glad to see a kid go because nobody likes him makes me quite sad...). And finally, his own tremendous magical power ensured that he would have plenty of opportunities to harm other people without being punished for it. Could Tom have been saved from becoming LV? I guess, yes. A very loving upbringing, and a consistent and continuous teaching of strong morals, might have compensated for his darker nature. Also, being in a controlled environment, among other wizards who would have known when he'd used his magic to do wrong, could have prevented him from creating this delusion that he could dominate others at will. And finally, if he had been less powerful magically, he could not have imposed his will on other wizards so easily (no creating false memories, for example). But unfortunately, in his case, all the wrong ingredients came together. Juli wrote: "I believe Tom did have a choice, whether he realized it or not." Del replies: I'm a bit lost here: if he didn't know he had a choice, then how could he have a choice? Having a choice means that you can contemplate different options, and deliberately choose one. If you can see only one option, you have no choice. Example: I was profoundly depressed as a teenager. As a result, there are things that I never even *considered* doing, even though they were things that many kids do daily (things like asking someone out, for example, or applying for certain schools). It's not that I didn't know about them: I could see other people doing them, so I knew they existed. But I *never* considered that *I* could do them. They weren't options for me. I could no more consider doing them than I could consider walking on fire. But now, as I think of those times, I realise that I *could indeed* have done those things. There was *nothing* preventing me from asking a guy I liked out, or from applying to some schools that I dreamed of. Nothing except that invisible barrier in my mind, that I was not even aware of. So I always ended up doing something else, maybe even feeling forced to do it, because I could see no other option, even though many other options were there. So IMO if Tom didn't *see* that he had other choices, then for all matters and purposes, he HAD NO choice. Juli wrote: "His "raison d'?tre" is to rule the world, to be immortal, to be powerful, invincible. There must have been a moment in his life when he set these goals, when he decided that was what he was going to do, when he decided to use his magical powers to gain more power, it was a turning point in his life, the moment he became truly selfish. And selfishness and egocentrism leads to evil. I think of him like Hitler, he wanted to make the world according to his desires, and he'd do whatever it takes to do it, not caring who got hurt on the way." Del replies: As Viqui explained, it actually goes the other way around. We are born perfectly selfish, and we grow out of it. Think of a baby: it doesn't care AT ALL whether its mom is sick, tired, had a bad day, or whatever. All it cares about is itself, period. Then as the baby grows up, develops bonds with other people, learns to put him/herself in other people's shoes, in short learns compassion and empathy, the kid then *decides* to be less selfish. A young kid's automatic reaction will always be "me first" or "mine". It's only through reasoning and exercising empathy that s/he will decide to let someone else come first, or to share his/her possessions. So Tom NEVER decided to be selfish: he just REMAINED selfish. He never chose to be unselfish, and that's because he never *learned* to be unselfish. Nobody taught him compassion and empathy by LOVING HIM FIRST. Juli wrote: "About this last paragraph, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Since Tom didn't know love and goodness, he couldn't adopt them?. He must have known good people (Dumbledore for one), but he decided on a different path, IMO. It's like the old saying "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone", so if Tom doesn't know Good, then he does not know Evil?" Del replies: No, he doesn't. That's why I called it an Evil by default. Tom didn't choose to be evil instead of good, because he never understood in his heart what being good or evil is. Sure he saw that some other people were different from him, but so what? They were different, but they weren't better. Just different. He had no internal compulsion to be like them, to emulate them, because he lacked the basic reason to do that: love of self and love of others. So he discarded those examples as useless to him. It's just like I couldn't care less about being given, say, a boxer in example. I might learn a few things from him, but I have absolutely no desire to become a boxer, so his example matters very little to me. I'm on another path. Tom was on his own path, and nobody ever gave him a reason to change path. Wew, long post :-) Sorry for that :-D Oh, and it's just my opinion, of course. I am NOT reading JKR's mind :-) So nobody has to agree with me, and I agree to disagree with everybody :-) Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 15:33:33 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:33:33 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134571 Sylvia wrote: "Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant" Del replies: Molly was insensitive first... How insulting is it to imply, and to almost say, in front of many people, that she thinks you won't love your man anymore now that he's ugly? I know *I* would have felt extremely insulted. Sylvia wrote: "Molly is his MOTHER, woman! Shehas known and loved him a damn sight longer than you have. You could have exercised a little tact, instead of flaunting your right to be the most important woman in Bill's life." Del replies: I don't see it that way. IMO Fleur was not trying to insult Molly: she was trying to walk the walk after having talked the talk. She had just said that she would still love Bill, and now she was going to prove it. And I guess she was also trying to make Molly feel bad for ever thinking that Fleur wouldn't lower herself to such a task. As much as I love Molly, I'm afraid she was downright horrible with Fleur throughout HBP. The way she kept inviting Tonks and pushing her into Bill's arms, right under Fleur's nose, that was simply disgusting! So when she topped it with that monstruous and totally unfounded insinuation that Fleur had only ever loved Bill for his looks, Fleur had *every right* to be angry IMO. Sylvia wrote: "Molly is a lot more forgiving than I would have been. Let's hear it from those who have beloved sons. Would YOU want Fleur as a daughter-in-law?" Del replies: My son won't bring me a daughter-in-law for a long time still, but I know what I want in her: I want her to make him happy (and I mean truly happy, not just crushingly happy). Period. If she makes him happy, then she's fine with me. Fleur makes Bill happy, she's devoted to him, she's taking care of him, she's not even trying to take him away from his family, that's way enough for me. Sure she's not perfect, but so what?? Nobody is! Del, who couldn't help coming to the defense of her fellow French-woman :-) (even though she irritates me too sometimes ;-) From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 15:42:19 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:42:19 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lindsay wrote: > Wanda wrote: > > No, this theory posits that Slytherin's locket never was in the basin > > in the first place. Voldemort put the false locket there himself, > > when he first prepared the Horcrux, and Dumbledore is the first person > > to find it. How Slytherin's real locket ended up at Grimmauld Place > > is not yet clear, but Regulus Black is, I believe, a red herring, who > > has nothing to do with the Horcrux. > > > > Lawless replies: > > Interesting idea. I myself wondered if the potion was indeed the > Horcrux when we first read about it - however, if you look back into > the earlier books, even to the beginning of this book, the handwriting > of the RAB note does not match Dumbledore's writing. They seem to be > very particular with handwriting in the series - characters will > always keep the same handwriting in each note posted to Harry. Of > course, Dumbledore could have changed the handwriting, but that > doesn't really make much sense if he WANTS Voldemort to know, eh? (Or > else why write the note at all?) > > "ES: It seems like it would be impossible. If Harry had gone to the > cave, he never could have done it on his own, it seems like. > > JKR: Well, I'm prepared to bet you now, that at least before the week > is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly > identified by careful re-readers of the books. " > > By books, it would be assumed that she meant a book other than HBP, > since that was the one they were specifically talking about at the > time - so why put it in plural tense? So the hint about another > horcrux in the books leads to believe that it is the locket, since we > only know about it, the cup, the ring (destroyed) and Nagini > (possible). > > But it is an interesting idea, nonetheless. There was something about > that potion... > > --Lawless That JKR, seven books, seven horcruxes (I guess technically six with Voldemort himself being the seventh bit of soul left). It would be just like her to use the theme/title/plot of each book to identify the item/whereabouts/how to destroy each of the horcruxes. SS: Something of Gryffindor'or Ravenclaw/Gringotts COS: Diary/Chamber of Secrets/destroyed by Baskilisk fang POA: Hufflepuff's cup (Lucius Malfoy has to have his tea!)/Azkaban GOF: Nagini/Graveyard POA: Locket/12 Grimmald Place/may or may not be destroyed HBP: Ring/Gaunt House/DD destroyed but we don't know how. Book 7: Voldemort Oi..the possibilities are endless. From RACH911 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 15:45:06 2005 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:45:06 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134573 I think that the Sorting Hat could be a Horcrux because it used to belong to Gryffindor which we know from book 4 (US version pg 177). However, I don't know who he killed to make it a Horcrux or when he did it. Any ideas? Rachel From unix4evr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 15:58:30 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:58:30 -0000 Subject: JKR Quotes about Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134574 MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil? JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think? ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically. MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim - JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] - . . . JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously ? Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories. ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes. [Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree. ES: How can someone so - JKR: Intelligent - ES: be so blind with regard to certain things? JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet- anelli-1.htm _________________________ Question: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. (1999) _________________________ JKR: "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." [Read the exact quote from Royal Albert Hall, 2003] _____________________________ Dumbledore thought the DADA job would "bring out the worst in Snape." [Read the exact quote from Royal Albert Hall, 2003] ____________________________ JKR: "Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual)." [Read the exact quote from World Book Day, 2004] ______________________ Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. . .Snape's ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born, because Muggle borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. You have some information about his ancestry there. (Sunday 15 August 2004, J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival) _____________________ From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Sun Jul 24 15:52:33 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:52:33 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134575 Valky says: > > Voldemort wanted his Horcruxes to have the Founders objects > surrounding and protecting them. Is Godrics Hollow itself a Hogwarts > Founders object? > I believe Godric's Hollow is directly linked to Godric Gryffindor, and therefore may have some artifacts of his, any of which could have been used for a horcrux. It is a matter for speculation, however, which LV would have chosen and how he would have had knowledge of it. There is a theory on here (can't find it at mo) that Dumbledore or the Weasleys may turn out to be descendents of Godric Gryffindor. This would explain in part why Dumbledore suggested Lily and James hide out at Godric's Hollow. Wapp13 From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 15:45:57 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:45:57 -0000 Subject: Rowling/Lucas Dark Arts Parallelism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134576 Don't know if anyone's brought this up or not, but I seem to recall an uncanny parallelism between JKR's portrayal of the Dark Arts (their nature, how they work) as through Snape's very first lessons in Dark Arts in HPB with the Dark Side of the Force as expressed in Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, the novel. Snape says that the Dark Arts are "many, varied, ever- changing and eternal...fighting (the Dark Arts)is like fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible...your defenses must therefore be flexible as the arts they combat" This is precisely what is said in Sith the novel, where Yoda realizes he cannot beat Darth Sidious because while he (Yoda) has been studying and teachings students the same things for well over 900 years, the Dark Side has changed and adapted...what the Light is prepared to combat has changed into something else, and so Yoda's material is outdated. That is why he "loses" his fight with Sidiious. In light of this apparent philosphical agreement between the two stories, can we garner that Dumbledore would have lost, ultimately, a one-on-one duel with Voldemort, had it not been interupted the way it was in OoP? DD did say, after all, in PS, that Voldemort "has powers I will never have..." Can we agree, also, that the Dark Arts is stronger than its counterpart, when on equal ground (that is to say, when there are no step-in martyrs such as Harry's mother)? Ahsonazmat From darqali at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 15:37:02 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:37:02 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's choices Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134577 Once again I will remind you that Tom Riddle is *Slytherin's Heir*. He is revealed as such in COS when he is the person who first unlocked the Chamber while at Hogwarts himself [though he framed Hagrid] and when he caused Ginny to do so later. And now in HBP we learn he is the last living descendant of Slytherin, too. As such, he has *a role to play*. Darqali From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Jul 24 16:11:45 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:11:45 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > As much as I love Molly, I'm afraid she was downright horrible with > Fleur throughout HBP. The way she kept inviting Tonks and pushing her > into Bill's arms, right under Fleur's nose, that was simply > disgusting! Hickengruendler: In Molly's defense, I don't think that this was what she wanted to do. It was just what the kids thought her plan was. But she really wanted to bring Tonks and Lupin together. Note that the first time Harry and we saw Tonks again, she was at the Burrow, probably talking about her sorrows too Molly. Then Molly invited Tonks for dinner, telling her that *Remus* was invited as well. And then, most important, in the second to last chapter she told Lupin: "I've said all along you're taking a ridicoulus line on this, Remus", meaning that she definitely knew Tonks and Remus' love to each other. Therefore she did not plan to hook Bill up with Tonks, but of course it is possible that Fleur thought so as well. Hickengruendler From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 16:21:27 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:21:27 -0000 Subject: Oh no! Good Luck Potion? It's more contrived than the Time Turner! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134579 Hi everyone, You might recall I had a bit of an issue with the time turner in book 3 - don't panic, I'm not raising it again! My main gripe (of many) was that JKR hadn't thought it through, and suddenly nothing was final - anyone with a time turner and the simple ability to turn it could go and alter history to whatever extent they wanted. Well, assuming all the time turners were broken (hah!).... we now have something much worse in terms of credibility for the story lines - the Good Luck potion. I couldn't believe JKR introduced something so riddled with potential loop holes and plot problems, bearing in mind how many arose from the existence of the last plot device of convenience, the time turner. From now on, any time any characters (whether good guys or bad guys) need to do anything slighty risky or daring, they can just take a swig of ol' Felix and then get lucky beyond belief. Harry demonstrates that when he ventures out of Hogwarts to visit Hagrid, and when I read that part I almost gave up and put the book in with the ones for my local church fete! So unless I missed something, there now exists the formula in the WW for a drink which can affect the outcome of events around you and where you go, as long as it's not to an extreme. Unless JKR can come up with a brilliant way of regulating this - beyond saying it's tricky to make - she's created another implausible plot device on a par (at the very least) with the time turner mess. And why does it exist? Because one character needed information from another, and of all the ways to get that info, a "good uck potion" was the best way? I think not. Sandra, (I might read it again because there must be a few points I missed along the way - if I can't find them I'll post them). From unix4evr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 16:31:48 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:31:48 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wapp13" wrote: > Valky says: > > > > Voldemort wanted his Horcruxes to have the Founders objects > > surrounding and protecting them. Is Godrics Hollow itself a Hogwarts > > Founders object? > > > I believe Godric's Hollow is directly linked to Godric Gryffindor, and > therefore may have some artifacts of his, any of which could have been > used for a horcrux. It is a matter for speculation, however, which LV > would have chosen and how he would have had knowledge of it. > > There is a theory on here (can't find it at mo) that Dumbledore or the > Weasleys may turn out to be descendents of Godric Gryffindor. This > would explain in part why Dumbledore suggested Lily and James hide out > at Godric's Hollow. > > Wapp13 The significance of the place where Harry and his parents lived, the first name -- Godric Gryffindor. JKR Very good, you're a bit good you are, aren't you? Thank you. JKR I'm impressed. My editor didn't notice, I said to her haven't you noticed any connection between where Harry's parents were born, not born, where they lived, and one of the Hogwarts houses and she's sitting there going erm... I'm not being rude about Emma she's a brilliant editor, the best I've ever [had]. But no she didn't pick that up either. You're a bit good you are. [Read the exact quote from the cBBC Newsround interview, 2000] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 16:39:49 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:39:49 -0000 Subject: Rowling/Lucas Dark Arts Parallelism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ahsonazmat" wrote: > In light of this apparent philosphical agreement between the > two stories, can we garner that Dumbledore would have lost, > ultimately, a one-on-one duel with Voldemort, had it not been > interupted the way it was in OoP? DD did say, after all, in PS, that Voldemort "has powers I will never have..." Can we agree, also, that the Dark Arts is stronger than its counterpart, when on equal ground (that is to say, when there are no step-in martyrs such as Harry's mother)? > Tonks: I guess on the surface one could say that it would *seem* that the dark side would win in a one on one fight where the force of Love was not present. But the force of Love is what makes the difference between the two forces of good and evil. The side of the Light, the good, because of its Love has compassion and this is why there are things that LV would do that DD would never do, because DD is Love. We see the force of Love present throughout the books, not just in the big sacrifices of Lily and, IMO, DD, but in the small everyday things as well. Look at Fleur and the way she accepts the fact that her soon to be husband is maimed for life. Many women would not do that. (And how many men would do that if it were the other way around? I don't what to get into a sexist debate here, but just think about it.) The greater power, the power that can overturn the forces of pure evil is not a power that is stronger in the way we normally think of strength. Most people think of *strength* as something harder, louder, harsher, etc. But real *power* comes like the morning dew, like cats paws, like the smile of a small child, like the twinkle in an old man's eyes. Love is quieter, softer, gentler, than Evil. And this is why its strength is discounted and underestimated by LV. The greater power is the power that seems to the world to be the lesser power. But it is in fact the greatest power in all the worlds. It is the power that Harry has within him that will overcome LV even when Harry has not learned all of the Dark arts or even DADA. Like the song says "all you need is Love" Real Love conquers all. Tonks_op From a1batross at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 16:37:49 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:37:49 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape take the UV in the first place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > I haven't seen this discussed extensively yet (although I admit I > have not read all 1,000+ posts per day...). This is my big question: > > **Why did Snape take the unbreakable vow for Narcissa in the first > place?** I believe that the answer to this is that we simply don't have enough information yet to know the answer. I believe that this will be revealed in Book 7. > Is he still on DD's side? Had they discussed this already, and come > to the decision that yes, Snape should take the vow, if asked? I believe that Snape is still on the side of the Order, and I believe that JKR has made his commitment to that cause abundantly clear. I believe he will be instrumental in preserving Harry in book 7. I don't believe that the idea of the Unbreakable Vow was pre-discussed, nor was DD's death. In the midst of war, many things have to be improvised either to stay alive or to seek advantage. > Is he on Voldemort's side, and he really did want to kill DD, so of > course he would take the vow? I would be really disappointed. No, I believe he'd simply gotten himself into a fix, and DD was the one who saw the way out and told SS to kill him (via Occulumency). Sometimes you have to sacrifice your queen in order to position a winning checkmate - and if you remember Sorceror's Stone, we've seen this from JKR before. Who are now LV's two most trusted generals? SS, a double-agent who killed DD to cement LV's trust, and PP, who owes Harry his life. If Harry makes LV mortal again, LV will be very, very vulnerable. --Bob Alberti http://albatross.org From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 16:50:06 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:50:06 -0000 Subject: Horcrux (Something of Ravenclaws/Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > > That JKR, seven books, seven horcruxes (I guess technically six with > Voldemort himself being the seventh bit of soul left). It would be > just like her to use the theme/title/plot of each book to identify > the item/whereabouts/how to destroy each of the horcruxes. > I'm STILL trying to sort out if it's 6 Horcruxes plus the current Voldemort, for a total of 7 soul-fragments, or 7 Horcruxes plus whatever was left over to keep Voldemort alive. At the moment, I'm figuring on 6, but I'm open to conviction either way. My thought was, 6 Horcruxes, and 6 Pensieve-memories. Could each trip into the Pensieve be tied to a particular Horcrux? Wanda From unix4evr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 17:03:56 2005 From: unix4evr at yahoo.com (UNIX4EVR) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:03:56 -0000 Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134584 JKR: The "crucial and central question" of the series is why both Harry and Voldemort survived the killing curse. [Read the exact quote from World Book Day, 2004] Rowling has said we should be asking why Voldemort lived -- not Harry. Could it be that Snapes was there and somehow prevented Voldemort's death? Or does this have to do wit the horcruxes? From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 17:08:19 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:08:19 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134585 Marcela now: This would only apply if Trelawney knew that she'd made two real prophecies. The fact of the matter is that she doesn't remember making any of them. *Milz replied: She might not remember them, but she has some type of memory of the incidents which is why she's able to tell Harry that it was Snape who interrupted. If you want to get into psychological theories, Trelawney's behavior is reminiscent of someone with PTSD (post- traumatic stress disorder)---they remember the events leading up to and after, but don't remember the actual traumatic event. And unfortunately, they continue to suffer from it. Marcela wrote: Trelawney started smelling like sherry in OoTP, when she was under the pressure of Umbridge's probation time and then got chucked out -but saved by Dumbledore. Harry never smelled any sherry aroung her in PoA and GoF. Then in HBP, we see her continuing with the sherry because she was discontent with Firenze and their sharing the students Divination classes. And finally, perhaps because Dumbledore was not taking heed of her card reading and/or her complaints about Firenze's classes. Ever since OoTP and Umbridge, Trelawney's little world started falling apart... *Milz replied: Yes, and this time period also corresponds with the second prophecy and with the return of Voldemort. The mind is a wonderfully mysterious thing. I've known of people who've gotten "stressed out" as their children reach certain ages because at that time in their childhood, something 'traumatic' happened to them and their adult stress is a manifestation of their anxieties. **Marcela now: If I may say so, I believe that this topic is a bit ridiculous, but heck, this is HPFGUs, :D This is the scene with Trelawney and Harry: "...'Dumbledore did me the courtesy of calling upon me in my room. He questioned me... I must confess that, at first, I thought he seemed ill-disposed toward Divination...and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day...but then...' '...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!' 'What?' 'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was a rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore -you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes -Harry, dear?' ..." HBP pages 544/5 Schol.ed.h/c. (I liked the pun 'pick up tips!', :D) If we are to believe that Trelawney was suffering from PTSD, then she should have been experiencing such for about sixteen years now, ever since she'd made the first prophecy, or at least since when its first part took place: when the Potters got killed and the AK failed on Harry. But the little canon we have of Sybill tells us that she started smelling like sherry in OoTP, which is when her position at Hogwarts got threatened. To make this post a bit more practical and in an attempt to add to the pool of ideas for brainstorming, I'd say that we shouldn't focus on Trelawney's behaviour, which as I said above, is a bit irrelevant to the story, but that we should concentrate on Jo's designs for her: it's evident to me that Sybill is a "plot device". Her 'cracking' had to be there in order for Harry to learn about the 'eavesdropper'. Harry had to force Dumbledore to explain his reasons for trusting Snape. Dumbledore didn't have a way out now that Harry had learned of the identity of the eavesdropper. I'm afraid that many of us are very reluctant (delusional?) to accept the simple answer to Dumbledore's trust on Snape's loyalty to him/Order -I myself made a little Snape-is-loyal-to-Dumbledore theory, :). Jo gave this answer to Harry in HBP: Dumbledore believed that Snape had repented from telling the prophecy to Voldemort/getting the Potters killed. That was good enough for him, even knowing that Snape was very good with Occlumency. As canon and interviews say it, Dumbledore's greatest weakness was to "believe the best in people", and that despite his brilliant genius he'd made huge mistakes. Back to Trelawney, we now know that Voldemort knew the identity of the prophecy's Seer, yet he didn't attempt to get Sybill in OoTP, nor in HBP. This tells me that Sybill was a plot device and that Jo may very well be done with her character (like Shakespeare was with the three witches in Macbeth -IIRC). Even if Voldemort gets to somehow break into Sybill's mind and learns the full version of the prophecy/ies in HP7, it'd be a bit late in the War. As of now, Harry is not going to back out/ignore the prophecy with all the knowledge he's got from Dumbledore: Harry has to hunt for Voldemort's souls in order to finish him off. He knows that "neither will live while the other survives". So Trelawney's prophecy knowledge or lack thereof, is sort of moot now. Her character's served her purpose. Both Harry and Voldemort are on their last battle in their personal war. Jo has said that Harry will be his own man from now on, I highly doubt that there would be another prophecy. BTW, I am going to read Macbeth again -did so about twenty years ago, :). But, IIRC, the three witches also delivered "two prophecies/visions", and it was Macbeth's doings that made them true. Also, I don't think that the witches showed up after the second vision, but I might be wrong. I wonder about this because perhaps Trelawney might not show up anymore in the story. Marcela From rachel at phony-art.com Sun Jul 24 17:05:32 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:05:32 -0000 Subject: In Essense Divided In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134586 "Inge" wrote: > Are we to assume that Dumbledore's "In essense divided"-comment in OOTP > has now been clarified? That he refers to Voldemort/Nagini because he > suspected a part of Nagini to be part of Voldemort - a Horcrux? I thought of this over the weekend, and planned to go back and reread that section. It talks about two snakes rising from the smoke, and than twining themselves together. Does this mean that at some point The Horcruxes "rejoin" the orriginal soul? At the time we thought the line was refering to the fact that Vodie had transfered some of his powers to Harry. Could this b used to infer that each of the horcruxes may contain a small sampling of Voldemorts powers? could Harry "collect" these and use them against voldie, or is there maybe a condition that "brother" horcruxes cannot do battle against themselves. So many question, so long to wait! Rachel From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 24 17:10:35 2005 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:10:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E3CB8B.20801@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134587 rochesteruponmedway wrote: > Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with > the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant (both > qualities she has been displaying throughout). Molly is his MOTHER, Well you know I've never been a big fan of Fleur, but frankly the way Molly, Ginny and Hermione treated her throughout the book really irritated me. I mean, yes, Fleur was arrogant and kind of awful, but that doesn't excuse nasty nicknames and mocking. And it was Molly who behaved like an insensitive wart at the hospital, making the assumption that Fleur wouldn't marry him since he'd been disfigured. I was glad she snatched the bowl from Molly and took over; Molly is quite controlling and only a blatant display like Fleur's would shake her out of it. I mean do you think Molly would stand for anyone else tending to Arthur in that situation? Even his mother? Not a chance. Shannon From a1batross at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 16:45:17 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:45:17 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134588 ohneill_2001 wrote: > My question is this: is it possible that part of Voldemort's soul > *was* in Harry, but that Voldemort unwittingly reunited this part with > himself when he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in the > graveyard in GOF? This would explain Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" > at hearing that Voldemort had used Harry's blood. That's exactly what I thought, too. My only misgiving in that respect is that if LV was going to kill Harry, making him a Horcrux makes no sense. I suppose it's possible that LV -didn't- use AK on Harry, but tried to make him into a Horcrux. Ten why would LV get blasted out of his body by a spell designed to invest part of his soul in a horcrux? You're right though - the "gleam of triumph" has yet to be fully explained, and eliminating one Horcrux would be one explanation. --Bob Alberti http://albatross.org From a1batross at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 17:13:15 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:13:15 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with > the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant (both > qualities she has been displaying throughout). Molly is his MOTHER You're missing the point of the scene and the symbolism. Genesis 2:24 says "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." That's what the scene was about, and that's why Fleur redeemed herself in Molly's eyes by the action you consider insensitive and arrogant. Many elements were explained by that action. The first is that Fleur has been aware of the rudeness directed towards her by many of the Weasleys, and that she has been forgiving them - or at least tolerating them for Bill's sake - all along. Fleur can't help it that she's a ravishing part-Veela, who inspires lust in men and envy in women (well and a few cases of lust in women and envy in men, but JKR doesn't cover that territory). The second element is that Molly really HAS been thinking very badly of Fleur. It's one thing to dislike your future daughter-in-law, it's another entirely to actively assume that she's only marrying your son because of his looks. How "arrogant and insensitive" is it to stand over a woman's gravely wounded fiancee and accuse her of not actually loving her future husband? If Fleur had slapped Molly across the face, she would have deserved it. Third we see that Fleur actually does love Bill, and that she also knows her role as his wife. It's actually HER job to care and comfort him - his mother has to step back in the hierarchy. Molly accepts that, why can't you? Finally, we see that Fleur is well aware of her looks and the effects that they have had on people. "I am good-looking enough for both of us," expresses both her loving determination to forge ahead with Bill, a grim sense of humor, and a gentle rebuff of the rudenesses that have been done her over the past year on account of those looks. They are not an undeserved privilege, they are for her both sword and shield. But if you still don't like Fleur, just keep one thing in mind: there's little point for JKR to kill off yet another major character at the END of Book 7, as there will be not subsequent books - and that book probably BEGINS with Fleurs wedding... --Bob Alberti http://albatross.org From rachel at phony-art.com Sun Jul 24 17:08:47 2005 From: rachel at phony-art.com (Rachel) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:08:47 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > I think that the Sorting Hat could be a Horcrux because it used to > belong to Gryffindor which we know from book 4 (US version pg 177). I have had the thought in passing a couple of times as well. The ony ral think that devalues this theory in my mind is that we have seen the other horcruxes, and they do evil things. They function as LV would want them to function... try to bring MORE evil into the world. The sorting hat seems to be inherently good (or at the very least neutral). It talks about working together and seems to be anti dark lord itself. Rachel From ksnidget at aol.com Sun Jul 24 17:32:33 2005 From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:32:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? Message-ID: <8b.2be3c260.30152ab1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134591 In a message dated 7/24/2005 1:17:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rachel at phony-art.com writes: I have had the thought in passing a couple of times as well. The ony ral think that devalues this theory in my mind is that we have seen the other horcruxes, and they do evil things. While the diary had additional evil purposes I do not know if it is the object have to be evil, or made to use evil. It seems more to me that they have some sort of significant meaning. A Diary, artifacts from the founders. I wonder about the "Special Services" Award that Ron had to polish. It might mesh with the items of significance theory, and also be of a time frame that would get a couple of horcruxes early on. Ksnidget. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 17:44:26 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: <8b.2be3c260.30152ab1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050724174426.52649.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134592 I've been looking for some canon, but doesn't Dumbledore say the only 2 remaining items of Gryffindor are the Hat and the Sword? and didn't he say they were never touched by Voldemort? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 18:04:39 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:04:39 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bob Alberti" wrote: > That's exactly what I thought, too. My only misgiving in that respect > is that if LV was going to kill Harry, making him a Horcrux makes no > sense. I suppose it's possible that LV -didn't- use AK on Harry, but > tried to make him into a Horcrux. Ten why would LV get blasted out of > his body by a spell designed to invest part of his soul in a horcrux? > > You're right though - the "gleam of triumph" has yet to be fully > explained, and eliminating one Horcrux would be one explanation. > Do you think that maybe LV *inadvertently* made Harry into a Horcrux, and perhaps still doesn't realize that that's what happened? As was said in a earlier post, Horcrux-making requires some preparation. Perhaps LV was going to use Harry's death as the "fuel" for his last Horcrux, and had everything ready in advance. But when Lily's protective spell repelled the AK, LV lost control of the situation, and the Horcrux spell took effect and LV's soul-fragment entered Harry. I would think that if Voldemort thought that killing Harry would endanger himself, he wouldn't want to do it, or at least would try to figure out some way of getting his soul-fragment back first. Wanda From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 24 18:10:50 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:10:50 -0400 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories Message-ID: <001a01c5907b$06b8d200$45c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134594 Amanda wrote: "PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD" and "The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know it anymore.*" snapeo'phile "First let me say, that that is a BRILLIANT theory, really excellent and well thought out. But what occured to me is, if you no longer have the memory, how could you remember to look for it later? Because, you wouldn't know what you were looking for when you needed it later, would you? It would have to still be there...must still be there in fact... or Slughorn could not have given the correct memory to Harry. I don't believe for a moment that DD gave his bottled memory back to Slughorn...he's had that one a long time, not just since Slug's been in the castle. JMO. CathyD DuffyPoo - I know, I know, I'm over my limit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 18:12:55 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:12:55 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with > the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant (both > qualities she has been displaying throughout). Molly is his MOTHER, > woman! Shehas known and loved him a damn sight longer than you have. > You could have exercised a little tact, instead of flaunting your right > to be the most important woman in Bill's life. Molly is a lot more > forgiving than I would have been. Let's hear it from those who have > beloved sons. Would YOU want Fleur as a daughter-in-law? > Sylvia (who has two lovely daughters-in-law, both blessed with tact and > kindness) I loved Fleur from the beginning, but that isn't all that surprising. I am a guy after all :) When she first showed up in GoF I shipped her with Harry. Of course that is more of fun ship than one I thought would actually happen, but still, she and her little sister always appealed to me as characters. I find the half humans characters fascinating from a biological and story point of view. The Molly/Fleur fight struck a cord with me because it really mirrors a fight that I, my gf, and my mother have had. My own mother doesn't approve of my girlfriend because of the way she makes her living and she tends to talk down to her because of that as well as attempting to undermine our relationship behind her back by trying to get me to date women my mother finds more appropriate. I thought Bill/Fleur was probably the most successful ship in the book. I really felt Fleur's determination and her line to molly about being attractive enough for the both of them was great. One of the best lines in the series imo. I thought the way Fleur revealed that she knew what Molly, Ginny, and Hermione had been doing and saying behind her back was well done. Fleur hadn't done anything but be pretty in a way that had even Hermione thinking there was nothing below the surface. Molly and Ginny forgot that she had been a triwizad champion and was not just a pretty face. I did not. All of this is a long winded way of saying I disagree with you. Fleur was totally within her rights to do what she did and the only thing missing was a seperate scene with Fleur knocking down Ginny a peg or eight. Every guy in the HP 'verse should so lucky. Hell, I should be so lucky. phoenixgod2000 From cottell at dublin.ie Sun Jul 24 18:22:04 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:22:04 -0000 Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "UNIX4EVR" wrote: > Rowling has said we should be asking why Voldemort lived -- not > Harry. Could it be that Snapes was there and somehow prevented > Voldemort's death? > > Or does this have to do wit the horcruxes? Certainly the consensus here and elsewhere seems to be that since death removes the soul from the body, LV didn't die at Godric's Hollow because his entire soul was not in his body. It had been split and placed in the Horcruxes. In other words, unless all seven Horcruxes are destroyed, he cannot be defeated. Since LV is determined to cheat death at all costs, creating the Horcruxes was an insurance policy against his death - ever. That's the point of the Horcruxes, and the impetus for the quest for them that has already begun, and which must continue in book 7. From adam at adampozek.com Sun Jul 24 18:07:44 2005 From: adam at adampozek.com (Adam C. Pozek) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:07:44 -0400 Subject: How has HBP effected your favorite characters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134597 Great synopsis of the characters, Tammy. It wasn't until OotP that a clear front-runner for my favorite character emerged, and it is none other than Ginny Weasley. While I have always been a sucker for red-heads, there are so many aspects that make her such a completely cool character. First, she is a Weasley, and that whole family (except Percy) seem like they would be great to know. Second, she is one of the few characters who (apart from the very beginning of her crush on Harry) is completely themselves and is pretty much unconcerned what others think of her. I find that type of confidence to be extremely attractive in a person. She is serious enough to be a talented witch and "street smart" enough to be a strong ally in the battle against LV. I also like the fact that (and she reminds us of it) that she has learned a great deal from Fred and George. I found the Slytherin's discussion of her good looks on the train to be interesting. Ginny is clearly not shy about liking boys, but she is not a slut about it. She has only had 2 boyfriends (IIRC) and has not run-around on them. It has not been until she has broken up with one before she takes up with another. That to me shows character and honor. Given her good looks (of which the Slytherin's obviously took note), it sounds like she could have just about any of the guys she wants, but she avoids going after the bad boys. She is also not shy about putting people in their place when they need it, but is also quick to comfort those in need. She is one of the few who can put Hermione in her place and get away with it. Yet, despite her attraction to Harry, she also calls him to the carpet when he needs it. HBP has done nothing but cement Ginny as my pick for favorite character. In a previous post, I seem to recall someone being critical of JKR for not portraying strong female characters, but I think Ginny clearly rebuts that assertion. She is a strong, talented, confident and attractive female. Of all these characteristics, her good looks are the last of these characteristics to be overtly discussed in the books. She is established a strong female character well before her looks ever come into play. As I type this message, I am struck at how my mind has been considering Ginny as if she were a real person. I find it truly amazing that JKY has been able to develop such a wide range of characters so well that the reader can begin to relate to them personally. Despite any criticism that anyone may have on plot turns and minor continuity errors, the ability to create such true-to-life characters is (in my mind) the mark of a truly gifted writer. --Adam Adam C. Pozek Alpharetta, GA, USA adam at adampozek.com www.adampozek.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adam at adampozek.com Sun Jul 24 18:26:55 2005 From: adam at adampozek.com (Adam C. Pozek) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:26:55 -0400 Subject: Parallels to Other Stories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134598 I know the parallels of the HP series to other stories, particularly LOTR, have been widely discussed. However, I only recall seeing a single reference to the Star Wars story. IIRC, that reference was simply a statement on the idea of Harry being somehow related to LV, and the commenter noted they did not buy into the whole "Luke, I am your father" concept for HP. I am drawn to Star Wars, Episode IV - A New Hope (the very first movie, for those who might be unfamiliar with the films). When Darth Vader was about to kill Obi Wan Kenobi, Obi Wan said "You can't win Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." As soon as Vader kills Obi Wan, Luke Skywalker is imbued with a sudden strength and conviction. Some may call it vengeance, while others call it a sudden realization of the gravity of the situation. Either way, Obi Wan's death is what spurs Luke to succeed in the dangerous task ahead of him. It is clear that HBP follows this path. During DD's funeral, Harry's resolve to do what has to be done is strengthened well beyond anything we have seen in the story thus far. While there is definitely a vengeful aspect to his determination, there is also clearly a recognition of his duty to fulfill the prophecy and "save the world." To take it a step further, we have just seen in Revenge of the Sith how Anakin Skywalker slowly turned to the dark side. He was on the good side and was slowly seduced by the power of the dark side. When he was almost killed, he was re-born into a new, stronger body. Anakin Skywalker was no longer, and the ominous Darth Vader took his place. While Tom Riddle was never described as good, it was with the gradual realization of the power of dark magic that he ceased to be Tom Riddle and became known by the more sinister name of LV. When the attack on Harry rebounded and almost took LV's life, he was eventually reborn into new and more frightening body at the end of GoF. Many have pontificated that Harry will probably die in the end. However, the heroes in many stories of the clash between good and evil live to see peaceful times. Luke Skywalker survives his meeting Darth Vader and the Emperor and returns to his friends at the end. In LOTR, both Frodo Baggins (barely) and Aragorn survive. I am not one of those "George Lucas is God" types, and JKR doesn't strike me as someone who would have been particularly influenced by Lucas' films. However, I am sure both of them (as writers) have some common influences, and I think some of the parallels are interesting. Adam C. Pozek Alpharetta, GA, USA adam at adampozek.com www.adampozek.com ADMIN Note: Please remember to keep all discussions on this topic centered on the discussion of JKR's works. Thanks! From Nanagose at aol.com Sun Jul 24 17:33:58 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:33:58 EDT Subject: handwriting, Draco's fate, Slughorn and pineapple Message-ID: <158.553a91b0.30152b06@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134599 >>Rosmerta said >>Want to bet Lily and Severus were Potions partners? Christina: I couldn't agree more. Ollivander says that Lily's wand is good for Charms. What's the point of emphasizing her skills at Potions as well? The book works just as well if you take out Slughorn's comments about Lily's Potions ability, so there *must* be some sort of reason JKR chooses to put them there. >>EstherS: >>Snape wrote all his recipes on the board (not relying on the text-book) and while Snape >>was Potions master Hermione's potions came out perfectly. Christina: I think this is huge evidence that shows that it was, in fact, Snape, that made the notes in the potions textbook, and not Lily, or his mother, or anyone else. >>Chys: >>THIS BUGS ME! Why didn't Harry recognize the handwriting? Did he? >>Handwriting doesn't change that much over time. Christina: Well, I'm 19 and my handwriting is completely different from what it was at 16, so I don't know :) I am convinced that the handwriting in the book is Snape's. JKR describes the writing in the textbook in HBP as "small" and "cramped," while describing Snape's teenaged handwriting in OOTP as "miniscule" and "cramped." Coincidence? Probably not. Also, writing on a blackboard is not the same as writing on paper. While the general style of a person's handwriting is the same, it wouldn't really match up exactly to how they write normally. >>Inge: >> >>HBP, The Lightning-Struck Tower, p 552, Bloomsbury: >>(Dumbledore):"..I can help you, Draco." >>"No, you can't," said Malfy, his wand hand shaking very badly >>indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no >>choise." >> >>So, in fact there was a penalty for Draco if he failed. Death penalty. Christina: Not necessarily. Just because LV said to Draco that he would be killed if he didn't complete his task, doesn't mean that it was ever his true intention. (HBP, US, page 34): " 'He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first.' " We know that LV himself has tried to kill DD and failed. I really don't think he ever expected Draco to succeed. Also, it just isn't to LV's advantage to kill Draco. As we can see in the conversation on the train, Draco's buddies are surprised that he's joining up with LV. I think it's safe to assume that not many other Slytherins have joined up either. By keeping Draco on board, LV can use him to recruit other young people for "the cause." If he kills Draco and other young Slytherins hear of it, it would probably only scare them away. On a completely unrelated note, what is with Slughorn's obsession with crystalized pineapple? It's mentioned at least three times. Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Jul 24 18:45:51 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:45:51 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002" wrote: > > **Marcela now: If I may say so, I believe that this topic is a bit > ridiculous, but heck, this is HPFGUs, :D > > This is the scene with Trelawney and Harry: > > "...'Dumbledore did me the courtesy of calling upon me in my room. > He questioned me... I must confess that, at first, I thought he > seemed ill-disposed toward Divination...and I remember I was > starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day...but > then...' > '...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!' > 'What?' > 'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and > there was a rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was > waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm > afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended > eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore -you see, he himself > was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! > Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to > give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was > because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming > manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young > man who was prepared to listen at keyholes -Harry, dear?' ..." HBP > pages 544/5 Schol.ed.h/c. > > (I liked the pun 'pick up tips!', :D) > > If we are to believe that Trelawney was suffering from PTSD, then > she should have been experiencing such for about sixteen years now, > ever since she'd made the first prophecy, or at least since when its > first part took place: when the Potters got killed and the AK failed > on Harry. Not necessarily. PTSD can manifest in different ways for different people. For example, a person who had a traumatic experience as a child might not remember the specific incident until something in their life "brings" that memory back. That something can be emotional stress or physical stress. > But the little canon we have of Sybill tells us that she started > smelling like sherry in OoTP, which is when her position at Hogwarts > got threatened. > True, but it also correspond, Sirius Black, alleged the Death Eater who betrayer of the Potters, escaping from Azakban and evading capture throughout GoF and OoP. Again, this could and the job stress could be the triggers for Trelawney, hence the drinking. > To make this post a bit more practical and in an attempt to add to > the pool of ideas for brainstorming, I'd say that we shouldn't focus > on Trelawney's behaviour, which as I said above, is a bit irrelevant > to the story, but that we should concentrate on Jo's designs for > her: it's evident to me that Sybill is a "plot device". > Her 'cracking' had to be there in order for Harry to learn about > the 'eavesdropper'. Harry had to force Dumbledore to explain his > reasons for trusting Snape. Dumbledore didn't have a way out now > that Harry had learned of the identity of the eavesdropper. Oh almost every character in the series are plot-devices and Rowling has used them rather well. But my point in sharing my thoughts were due the little light bulb that went off in my head after reading Rowling's MacBeth Witches' prophecy-as-catalyst on her website. (See below for the MacB Witches and culpability). Nothing more/nothing less (and it's also a change from all the Snape-based messages too---which can get very boring, very fast, imo.) This is all speculation on my part, not "fact". :) > I'm > afraid that many of us are very reluctant (delusional?) to accept > the simple answer to Dumbledore's trust on Snape's loyalty to > him/Order -I myself made a little Snape-is-loyal-to-Dumbledore > theory, :). Jo gave this answer to Harry in HBP: Dumbledore > believed that Snape had repented from telling the prophecy to > Voldemort/getting the Potters killed. That was good enough for him, > even knowing that Snape was very good with Occlumency. As canon and > interviews say it, Dumbledore's greatest weakness was to "believe > the best in people", and that despite his brilliant genius he'd made > huge mistakes. > Jury's still out for Snape in my opinion. So, I don't care to comment or to base my arguments on Snape's being guilty or innocent---because Rowling left enough leeway for her to make a convincing argument for Snape's innocence or his guilt. (BTW, how did Trelawney's drinking turn into Snape: he seems to infiltrate everything?) . > BTW, I am going to read Macbeth again -did so about twenty years > ago, :). But, IIRC, the three witches also delivered "two > prophecies/visions", and it was Macbeth's doings that made them > true. Also, I don't think that the witches showed up after the > second vision, but I might be wrong. I wonder about this because > perhaps Trelawney might not show up anymore in the story. > > Marcela The witches show up 3 times in the play: 1.in the beginning of the play (no prophecy but they set the tone of the play),2. in the moor to tell MacB that he will eventually become King and tell Banquio that while he won't become king his descendants will, 3. in their cave where MacB gets them to tell him more of their prophecy: beware MacDuff, he can only be killed by a man not born of a woman, and that everything will be okay until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Castle. The question about the Witches is how much culpability they had in the events that followed their prophecy. Two arguments can be made (both have their points, btw) 1. The witches were merely passing on information. What MacBeth did with that info was out of their hands. Therefore, they cannot not be culpable. 2. The witches could foretell the future so in giving MacB that info, they knew he would murder---which makes them culpable because they gave him the "tools" so to speak. Milz From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 24 18:49:47 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724184947.83965.qmail@web80110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134601 rachaelmcadams wrote: >With Dumbledore dead, will Grimmauld Place be visible to everyone now? >Or because he died before revealing the secret, will stay a secret except to those who know it? Rachael >who has to add that HBP might be her new favourite and definitely believes that Dumbledore is dead because the charm on Harry came off I thought of this too. In the RW, in legends, mythology, etc., the way to break a spell is to kill the spell caster. I think that any spell cast by DD would now be gone. I am sure this includes the extra protection that he put on the school (of course all the old protections are still in place). Unless he had someone such as Professor McG do the spells with him, they're gone. As you stated, the Fidelius Charm is now defunct. The Order is going to need another secret keeper ASAP! Sirius' father made the house unplottable (OOtP p115 AmEd.) so it is still protected by that. However, Snape knows where it is and I'm sure any member of the extended Black family would also know. So the Order really needs to find a new secret keeper! I think it would be best if they used Harry as secret keeper for two reasons; 1. It's his house now and 2. If Harry dies the Order is in deep trouble anyway. IF that prophecy is to be believed, then Harry is the only one who can kill LV. Of course, we have heard now from DD that the only reason the prophecy is important is because it has been acted upon. Chris (flowerchild4) who is still in shock!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 18:53:27 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:53:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's or Lily's Handwriting? (RE: Rosmerta and EstherS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134602 Sherrie: > Did Hermione ever see the book? If anyone was going to recognize the > handwriting as Snape's, she would be my candidate. Yes, she said it looked like a girl's writing. In chapter 10, Hermione says, "It might have been a girl. I think the handwriting looks more likea girl's than a boy's." How has Snape's handwriting been described? Tone, who is now checking SS for Harry's first potion class From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sun Jul 24 19:09:43 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:09:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] theory on harry being a horcrux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134603 >katssirius: >I agree with you. This is why Harry has a scar. AK does not leave a >mark as JKR reminds us again and again. Harry's scar is from whoever >put a part of Voldemort inside of him. This is also supported by >Dumbledore's description of Nagini. Harry was as closely linked in >OOtP as the snake. I have read a lot of the theories about Harry's scar being a horcrux, but the thing that sort of puzzles me is that when the AK was performed and rebounded, what Harry was left with was a CUT, not a scar. The scar formed later as the cut healed. A cut is a break in the skin, not something added. I could see HARRY as being a horcrux, though I certainly don't like the idea, but not the scar. For the scar to be the horcrux, the part of LV's soul that is in Harry would have to concentrate itself into the newly formed scar - sounds odd to me. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:21:25 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's fate In-Reply-To: <158.553a91b0.30152b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050724192126.29962.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134604 Christina > We know that LV himself has tried to kill DD and > failed. I really don't > think he ever expected Draco to succeed. Also, it > just isn't to LV's advantage to > kill Draco. As we can see in the conversation on > the train, Draco's buddies > are surprised that he's joining up with LV. I think > it's safe to assume that > not many other Slytherins have joined up either. By > keeping Draco on board, > LV can use him to recruit other young people for > "the cause." If he kills > Draco and other young Slytherins hear of it, it > would probably only scare them > away. Silence But we also know that LV was very angry with Draco's father, and from Chapter 2, I got the impression that LV was sending Draco straight into the fire with no backup in order to teach Lucius a 'lesson' so to speak. What better way, in LV's mind, to say "You messed up, so now you have to pay" than to send the only child to his death? Especially since I am assuming that LV can't touch Lucius himself because he's in Azkaban. I don't know if I believe LV is interested in Draco's recruiting powers in the Slytherin house. I don't think he gives underage wizards much credit (as Dumbledore implied in the cave) so he wouldn't be that interested in them until after they graduate from Hogwarts. And after that happens, I'm betting he has more, let's say...persuasive...ways of recruiting the ones he wants to join him, instead of going through Draco. ~Silence __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pfsch at gmx.de Sun Jul 24 19:24:55 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:24:55 -0000 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's House (bit spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134605 Hi there! In her recent Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview, JKR said, the four houses represented the four elements, Slytherin being water. I wonder which house Moaning Myrtle could be in. Who else would represent water if she didn't -- living in a toilet? ;) So my guess would be she's a Slytherin. Riddle didn't kill her on purpose, so she might even be a pureblood though I'm not into CoS too much in the moment, it might have been said that she's muggle-born. BIT OF SPOILER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (well, not really, is it?) Also she seems to be friendly with Draco in HBP. Which doesn't really proof anything, since she was friendly with Hermione, Ron & Harry, too, but might be a hint. What do you think? Goodbite Peter From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:35:51 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:35:51 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wapp13" wrote: > Valky says: > > > > Voldemort wanted his Horcruxes to have the Founders objects > > surrounding and protecting them. Is Godrics Hollow itself a Hogwarts > > Founders object? > > > I believe Godric's Hollow is directly linked to Godric Gryffindor, and > therefore may have some artifacts of his, any of which could have been > used for a horcrux. It is a matter for speculation, however, which LV > would have chosen and how he would have had knowledge of it. > > There is a theory on here (can't find it at mo) that Dumbledore or the > Weasleys may turn out to be descendents of Godric Gryffindor. This > would explain in part why Dumbledore suggested Lily and James hide out > at Godric's Hollow. > > Wapp13 So, let's say for the sake of discussion, that LV went to Godric's Hollow for two purposes: First, to establish the 7th horcrux with an object of Godric Gryffindor's that was located at the Hollow and, second, to kill Harry because of the prophecy. I think James was the one LV had to kill to establish the horcrux (because he had the relic of Gryffindor, perhaps?). That is why Lily's death was not necessary...he had already committed the murder he needed to fulfill his first intention. The murder of Harry was simply to get him out of the way. Lily's /choice/ to die is what saved Harry, no ancient magic. The protection she gave Harry was her sacrifice. It is possible that no one had ever been given this choice before because no one had ever tried to AK a baby/child before. Let's face it, LV is evil, not just "a bad guy." This leaves the possibility that the last horcrux was not established, unless it somehow was unintentionally established within Harry or his scar as a result of the magical preparation LV had to do to establish the horcrux but was thwarted by Lily. Back to DD...even if he chose to die and Snape used the AK, I don't see this as the same type of sacrifice that Lily made. The DEs did not know Harry was present because he was under the invisibility cloak. DD did not sacrifice himself /for/ Harry (ie, step in front of the AK), so I do not think his death affords the same type of protection Lily's did. (However, I still am holding out for the possibility that Snape's AK did not kill DD but the fall from the tower did. I am hoping that Snape is "one of the good guys," maybe not a nice guy but at least a good guy.) Julie From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:38:02 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:38:02 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darqali" wrote: > Once again I will remind you that Tom Riddle is *Slytherin's Heir*. > > He is revealed as such in COS when he is the person who first > unlocked the Chamber while at Hogwarts himself [though he framed > Hagrid] and when he caused Ginny to do so later. > > And now in HBP we learn he is the last living descendant of > Slytherin, too. > > As such, he has *a role to play*. > > > Darqali What do you want to bet Tom Riddle also is related to Grindlewald? According to the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview with JKR, there is more to Grindy than just a mention on the chocolate frog card. I have wondered about this from PS/SS. Julie From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 19:50:07 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:50:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134608 Marianne writes: >If he could be ordered to live at Hogwarts by new master Harry, why >didn't it occur to anyone in OoP to send him to Hogwarts? It would >have removed him from Grimmauld Place and thus shut off whatever >knowledge he might have gleaned from skulking around listening to and >observing the various Order members who spent time there. House-elves are bound primarily to the house (thus the name), and secondarily to the family. They can certainly leave their houses for periods, especially to accompany the masters (note that in CoS, Chapter 18, Lucius Malfoy brought Dobby with him to Dumbledore's office. Sirius, IMHO, could not order Kracher to Hogwarts, but Harry, now the master of 12 GP, could order Kreacher to accompany him to Hogwarts. Kreacher would have to return to 12GP when Harry left Hogwarts. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ahendon at nyc.rr.com Sun Jul 24 17:02:34 2005 From: ahendon at nyc.rr.com (Alison Hendon) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:02:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42E3916A.14365.108701FA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 134609 Rachel wrote: > I think that the Sorting Hat could be a Horcrux because it used to > belong to Gryffindor which we know from book 4 (US version pg 177). > However, I don't know who he killed to make it a Horcrux or when he > did it. > Any ideas? Alison: This is also my theory. I think that the piece of LV in the Sorting Hat is what has made the houses so divided and so hostile since his day. Alison (new poster)Alison Hendon alison at vabish.com "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" From kristin1778 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 18:34:55 2005 From: kristin1778 at yahoo.com (kristin1778) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:34:55 -0000 Subject: Harry the Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queencrem" wrote: > It's highly unlikely that JKR has structured the seven > part series so Harry has to kill himself (or Ginny for that matter). > > "Clementine" Yes, but the whole series is about choosing between what is right and what is easy, and love being the most powerful magic. Harry making the choice to die to save the wizarding world would fit with this. I hope I'm wrong. Kristin From darqali at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 18:40:43 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:40:43 -0000 Subject: horcruxs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134611 [does yone know how to pronounce this word?] Tom Riddle made and left at least one Horcrux during his Hogwarts school days: the Diary, which we meet in COS; which contains "the memory" of his school-age self, and a piece of his soul, which he could have used to regain a body .... had he not been thwarted by Harry using the Basilisk fang [how ironic is *that* ??; ... using the fang of Slythern's basilisk to thwart Slythern's heir !!] We know it takes a death to 'split the soul' in order to create a Horcurx; which is an object or creature in which a part of a human soul is hidden. What death was involved in creation of the Diary as Horcrux? Well, there was Moaning Myrtle, who died as a result of Tom Riddle releasing the basilisk .... she didn't die directly at Riddle's hand [not an AK curse killing], though as a result of Riddle's actions; but that is the one death that we know of in the right time-frame to have been the soul-splitting murder for the creation of that early Horcurx-forming event. [If Moaning Myrtle is *not* the death that was needed to make that first split of Riddle's soul, whose was?] *If* Tom Riddles' Special Services to the School Award were a second Horcrux, would there not have had to be a *second* death associated with Tom Riddle, while at the school? Also: this is not "something of Ravenclaw's or Griffendor's", which Dumbledore *assumes* is the most likely unknown Horcrux object]. Tom took his uncle's ring, murdered his father and grandparents {fixing blame upon said uncle}, and created a Horcurx after that event. [His fathers' and grandparents' deaths were certainly soul- splitting events to create the Horcurx with the ring]. We [Dumbledore and Harry] presume the Hufflepuff cup and Slythern locket became Horcruxes [Horcruxi ??? whatever the plural is]; one probably upon the death of the old lady who was murdered to obtain them .... another with one of the other significant murders Voldemort was known to have done prior to his downfall with his attempt on Harry... I cannot see Harry as a Horcrux, again, because Voldemort tried to kill Harry; clearly, Dumbledore thought that the event of killing Harry {who Voldemort thought of as the boy of the prophecy} would be an ideal soul-splitting killing for the creation of Voldemort's final [sixth] Horcrux, but it didn't happen .... hence, Dumbledore's guess that the snake Nagini was used much later, after Voldemort's return to a rudementary body. But there must have been an object at hand ["something of Griffendors" ???] in Godric's Hollow which Riddle/LV *intended* to use as his Horcrux with Harry's expected demise .... ***** It seems clear that there were ever only 6 Horcruxes, because Tom Riddle decided "Seven was the most powerfully magical number"; meaning, his soul would be most powerfully protected by dividing it into seven pieces; One for his living self, the remaining six pieces hidden to anchor his "self" to life and prevent his death in the event of his body dying. His body died when his AK curse rebounded from his failed attempt to kill Harry; his sixth Horcurx was not {as planned} formed at that time; but he did not die, because there *were* 5 Horcruxes [The Diary; the Ring; Hufflepuff's Cup; Slytherin's Locket; "something {unknown} of Griffendor's or Ravenclaw's"] existing which prevented his death. When Wormtail was able to help Voldemort regain a 'baby body' that origional soul fragment was again contained within it; and he regained a more 'adult' body with the ritual performed with the kidnapped Harry. One part of his soul was gone by then [the piece in the Diary which Harry destroyed] but it didn't matter. Later, Dumbledore found and destroyed the Horcrux that was the Ring. Dumbledore *guessed* another was Nagini the snake; and both he and Harry *guessed* the Hufflepuff Cup and Slythern's locket were two more; and that left the final unknown object ... which Dumbledore postulated would be something of Ravenclaw's, or possibly Griffendor's ... though Dumbledore thought that it wouldn't be Griffendor's because the *only known object* was safe in his office [the sword, which came to Harry from the Sorting Hat in GOF, and had thus not ever been in Riddle/LV's hands] [Which leaves the speculation about the Sorting Hat itself; but when would Riddle have had access to *that*, when it resided in the Headmaster's office; and directly after splitting a soul-splitting murder?] ****** Another thing not clear, which is not being mentioned in these discussions, is the time lapse between the prophecy, the reporting of the prophecy by Snape to LV, and the attack on the Potters'; and Snape's repentance and return to the side of "good" and Dumbledore. Trelawny makes the prophecy *before the birth of either boy [Harry or Neville] to whom it might apply*. Snape was not yet working at Hogwartswhen he overheard Trelawny; we know he had been going to apply for a job, {in order to spy for LV}; and at that time was a DE. Harry was around a year old when his parents were killed. Since the prophecy was made prior to his [and Nevilles'] birth, clearly, *over a year had elapsed* between the prophecy being made and LV's act of attempted murder against Harry. What was Snape's position in that year? Rejected job applicant ? New Hogwarts teacher, a spy for LV, un-suspected by Dumbledore? Teacher *suspected* by Dumbledore? *When* did he confess to Dumbledore and "turn back" to the good side? Clearly, *after* LV's fall; *after" the Potters' death. But how long after? comments? "darqali" From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:28:30 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:28:30 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134612 phoenixgod2000: All of this is a long winded way of saying I disagree with you. Fleur was totally within her rights to do what she did and the only thing missing was a seperate scene with Fleur knocking down Ginny a peg or eight. Every guy in the HP 'verse should so lucky. Hell, I should be so lucky. Schumar: I think that Ginny and Hermione and Molly's reactions to Fleur were understandable, even if shortsighted in forgetting that she was a triwizard champion. Maybe Veelas (or part Veelas) have an unconscious effect on women as they do on men, just with opposite results. The way Hermione reacted to the Veelas at the Quidditch World Cup as well as the way H, G, and M react to Fleur all seem to fit that. Fleur's arrogance might also be related to her FRENCHness. Anyway, I agree that Fleur was within her rights to say what she did to Molly. I think Fleur is arrogant and she loves herself, but she genuinely loves Bill and wants to be a part of his family. However, I don't see Fleur knocking Ginny down a peg. In fact, even if it is done with some of Fleur's innate French/Veela arrogance, I see Fleur perhaps being able to impart some reason on Harry and Ginny and even Ron and Hermione and show them that LOVE can be a strength and not necessarily a vulnerability. I could see her bluntly telling R/Hr that need to get their acts together and recognize their feelings, just as I could see her telling Ginny that Harry's got to do what he must, and they will be ok in the end and not to give up. We know that she likes Harry enough to want the best for him/for him to be happy. She might be tactless, like when she commented about Tonks letting herself go, but I believe Fleur is on the side of love. Marianne S, grateful for a chance to posit about something other than Snape. From kristin1778 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:08:13 2005 From: kristin1778 at yahoo.com (kristin1778) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:08:13 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > My question is this: is it possible that part of Voldemort's soul > *was* in Harry, but that Voldemort unwittingly reunited this part with > himself when he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in the > graveyard in GOF? This would explain Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" > at hearing that Voldemort had used Harry's blood. > > Just a thought I had earlier today. Any thoughts? > > --Cory I would love it if this were true, but to me, the significant thing about the gleam is how quickly it faded. The impression I got from those lines was that Dumbledore knows that Voldemort has made himself vulnerable, thus the triumphant gleam, but that exploiting that vulnerablity would also be harmful to Harry, which is why the gleam fades. Also, I think if Dumbledore knew that Harry had once been a horcrux, he would have mentioned it in HBP. There would have been no reason to keep it from Harry. Instead, he seems to genuinely believe that no horcrux was made that night. I really hope that Harry doesn't have to die to defeat Voldemort, but I'm no more comforted by "the gleam" than I am by the horcrux!Harry theory. Kristin From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 20:05:59 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:05:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c5908b$1d0ad430$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134614 I thought Bill/Fleur was probably the most successful ship in the book. I really felt Fleur's determination and her line to molly about being attractive enough for the both of them was great. One of the best lines in the series imo. I thought the way Fleur revealed that she knew what Molly, Ginny, and Hermione had been doing and saying behind her back was well done. Fleur hadn't done anything but be pretty in a way that had even Hermione thinking there was nothing below the surface. Molly and Ginny forgot that she had been a triwizad champion and was not just a pretty face. I did not. Sherry now: I liked fleur, too. When we first see her at the Weasleys, nobody is being particularly nice. not the female characters we know and not Fleur. They are all picking at each other to some extent. But I remembered Fleur from the tournament. She had seemed superficial at first, but she had ended up proving herself and being a very likable person by the end of GOF. When the hospital scene arrived in HBP, I was holding my breath, thinking, come on, Fleur, show us all there's as much to you as I think there is! and she did. I thought it was great. Sherry From cathmorgan at cetian.net Sun Jul 24 19:40:58 2005 From: cathmorgan at cetian.net (cathmorgan100) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:40:58 -0000 Subject: Pineapple/Rasberry/Imperious Curse/DD's behavior In-Reply-To: <158.553a91b0.30152b06@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134615 Christina wrote: > On a completely unrelated note, what is with Slughorn's obsession > with crystalized pineapple? It's mentioned at least three times. Cathcart writes: (1) Introduction - new poster as of this week, mostly a lurker since January. I LOVE the series, love JKR, love the characters, but sometimes wish JKR were a better writer... some "hints" turn out to be sloppy writing or timeline control. But, again, I enjoy her as much as I do most sci fi/fantasy/literary classics.; I don't need to analyze her appeal - it speaks for itself. (2) Re: pineapple, rasberry, the Imperioius Curse, and DD's behavior I'm wondering if anybody besides myself half-expected one or more important characters to be revealed as being under the Imperious Curse (besides Madam Rosmerta, which was an informative surprise). My book is leant out, so I can't quote the page numbers, but numerous references were made to both specific personal details about friends/family etc. and to the importance of knowing these details to use as challenges, to guard against being fooled by someone under the IC. DD's mentions his fondness for rasberry jam?, other misc details about characters are revealed that could have been used as challenges - including the pineapple mentioned 3X - and yet nothing in the end came out of that at all except Rosmerta, for whom no opportunity to challenge was presented nor personal details known in such a way to be used. To tell you the truth, my gut reaction as I was reading the book had me wondering about a lot of characters, including DD, who seemed occasionally so off character that I thought he might have been under the IC and using HP to get info from Slughorn's memory that would NOT have been to the OOTP's benefit. Since the info was crucial in a beneficial way, I assume I was just wrong about that. [DD being "off-character": if this was a brand new phase of truthfulness between DD and HP, why didn't DD just tell HP what sorts of things he was hoping to find in the memory? In fact, Slughorn could have just told him the information, unless the most important piece of information was the number of Horcrux's Slughorn mentions... But even now, none of know for sure how many there are. The memory of the conversation b/n TR and Slughorn doesn't constitue a unchangeable fact, it constitutes a really solid clue.] Any opinions about whether this was just a sidewise hint or are there characters who will be shown in Bk7 to have been under the IC in Bk6? Am I missing something more important about Rosmerta's lines? Cathcart From aidil7lls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 19:51:11 2005 From: aidil7lls at yahoo.com (lady_aidil) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:51:11 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134616 "delwynmarch" wrote: > Moreover, I'm afraid DD burned his ships right away with his little > demonstration of power. IMO DD made 3 major mistakes. > > 1. He showed no acceptance and understanding for what Tom was *at > that time*. That's one of the basic steps of giving love: > accepting people *as they are*. > 2. He *forcefully* made Tom comply to what he (DD) expected. By so > doing, he actually *reinforced* Tom's previous understanding of the > rules of life: the biggest bully gets to make the rules. > 3. And finally, he didn't follow through. Instead of actively > trying to get closer to Tom and to give him better morals, he > instead sat back and let Tom get involved with the wrong crowd. > > So no, I definitely do not consider that DD helped Tom in any way. > And in particular, he did NOT show him love. Your post is exactly what I`ve had in my mind since the reading of the book, this is the issue that bothers me considering the whole series, I don`t see now the matter of choices if the main evil character is simply the born psychopath, the victim of genes, neglected by his adult protectors. I have the same opinion about Dumbledore`s role in the development of Tom Riddle, I think that it is one of his great mistakes, because he was in Hogwarts 7 years and did nothing save the constant dislike and suspicion. I know that his abilities were more limited than later when he was the Headmaster, yet I can`t acknowledge somebody an excellent tutor when they simply let this kind of young man stay alone with his problems. Lady Aidil From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 20:20:13 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:20:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: <20050724184947.83965.qmail@web80110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134617 Chris (flowerchild4) wrote: >> As you stated, the Fidelius Charm is now defunct. The Order is going to need another secret keeper ASAP! Sirius' father made the house unplottable (OOtP p115 AmEd.) so it is still protected by that. However, Snape knows where it is and I'm sure any member of the extended Black family would also know. So the Order really needs to find a new secret keeper!<< KathyK: I know I already brought this up in my last message on the subject, but what is the significance of this "immensely complex" charm, if all it takes to break the thing is a well-placed Avada Kedavra? Why use it at all? It'll keep people out while the SK lives, but if the SK is found out, it's all over. Repeating myself, but there *has* to be more to it than this. Yes, no one else can reveal the secret while there exists a SK, but I don't see how it protects at all if it expires upon the death of the Secret-Keeper. Presumably, some of the folks who are in on the secret would be able to give it up if the Charm breaks. They could tell others *who* the SK is, even if they can't reveal the Secret itself. It seems a poor protection. The big deal that was made about the Fidelius in PoA particularly, and in OoP also, makes me think there's more to it. I think if the SK dies, there is at least a grace period before the charm expires. As Yolanda Carroll just pointed out to me in Chat, Sirius mentions in OoP that his father made 12 Grimmauld Place unplottable. And that seemed to be still working post-mortem. Perhaps there are some charms and spells so powerful that they are not broken by mere death. Then again in HBP, Dumbledore also mentions he's made GP unplottable. Though I wonder whether there was a difference in the focus of their charms, and whether that makes a difference. Sirius says the house is Unplottable to keep muggles away. I infer from what Dumbledore says that his Unplottable spell was meant to keep away the likes of Bellatrix Lestrange and other Black family members from finding the house. Is there a difference? Does the Fidelius override both these things? Do they override them? Does death take precedence over all? Chris: >> I think it would be best if they used Harry as secret keeper for two reasons; 1. It's his house now and 2. If Harry dies the Order is in deep trouble anyway.<< KathyK: Yes, but no one knows about the Prophecy or the Horcruxes. Why make a teenage boy LV is targeting even more of a target..thinking as an order member. And for that matter, who is brave enough to fill in Dumbledore's shoes? KathyK, wishing for more information on Fidelius From cathmorgan at cetian.net Sun Jul 24 20:03:55 2005 From: cathmorgan at cetian.net (cathmorgan100) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:03:55 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134618 "Milz" wrote: > The question about the Witches is how much culpability they had in > the events that followed their prophecy. Two arguments can be made > (both have their points, btw) 1. The witches were merely passing on > information. What MacBeth did with that info was out of their > hands. Therefore, they cannot not be culpable. 2. The witches > could foretell the future so in giving MacB that info, they knew > he would murder---which makes them culpable because they gave him > the "tools" so to speak. Cathcart: But isn't the question how culpable was _Snape_, not Trawlany. Trawlany is clearly a messanger, explicitly made innocent of any knowledge, a bit of a fool for comic relief, and as you say a plot device. The point is what Snape did with the information. A lot of what Harry does with his information is also relevant to the plot line: he creates as many problems as he solves. Fortunately for the story, most of the problems he solves are valid (not generated by his and others mistakes). But culpablity for Sirius's death he certainly earned. The theme is what you do with the knowledge... I think. From alggu at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:21:35 2005 From: alggu at hotmail.com (annak32000) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:21:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134619 Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned - I do not think so but it is almost impossible to keep up with the list due to the amount of posts. One of the most important themes for HBP is love in different forms. Earlier in the series, we have heard countless times that love is some kind of ancient magic, too, which was used by Lily to save Harry. Apparently, death was necessary for her to secure this magic. So, what if Dumbledore has ordered Snape to kill him? The rationale could be that he then can by loving Harry as a father (or some kind of ancestor) and die for him, thereby preserving his love somehow and thus manage to save Harry once more? Harry can in the future be the Boy Who Lived Twice? Dumbledore's also told LV 1) that death is not the worst thing that can happen to you and 2) there is some magic he does not understand. So, love could be a powerful weapon in the war, especially if the dark side does not know how to use it. From alggu at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:20:37 2005 From: alggu at hotmail.com (annak32000) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:20:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134620 Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned - I do not think so but it is almost impossible to keep up with the list due to the amount of posts. One of the most important themes for HBP is love in different forms. Earlier in the series, we have heard countless times that love is some kind of ancient magic, too, which was used by Lily to save Harry. Apparently, death was necessary for her to secure this magic. So, what if Dumbledore has ordered Snape to kill him? The rationale could be that he then can by loving Harry as a father (or some kind of ancestor) and die for him, thereby preserving his love somehow and thus manage to save Harry once more? Harry can in the future be the Boy Who Lived Twice? Dumbledore's also told LV 1) that death is not the worst thing that can happen to you and 2) there is some magic he does not understand. So, love could be a powerful weapon in the war, especially if the dark side does not know how to use it. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:27:26 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:27:26 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134621 Sylvia wrote: > "Sorry, but I find her behaviour > in snatching the bowl from Molly, > with the comment "And I will do that" > insensitive and arrogant" I don't agree, I think it was a brave demonstration of Fleur willing to perform a very very unpleasant task if she thought it will help her future husband. But for the sake of argument let's say I'm wrong and you are correct and Fleur was insensitive and arrogant .. well, that's a negative no doubt about it, but is that all there is to the scene? Does her willingness to stick with her once handsome man through thick and thin count for nothing even though he now looks like a gargoyle? As I said before Fleur does indeed have her fault, but do you have fewer? I don't. > Molly is a lot more forgiving > than I would have been. So you're saying you could not find it in your heart to forgive a woman who could give your extraordinarily brave but hideously disfigured son years of happiness. Are you really sure you want to say that? Eggplant From editor at texas.net Sun Jul 24 20:39:17 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:39:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE :What would convince Harry/canned memories References: Message-ID: <001c01c5908f$c36311e0$1558aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134622 Amanda wrote: > "PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD" and "The > obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't > know > it anymore.*" Samantha: > But what occured to me is, if you no longer have the memory, how could > you remember to look for it later? Because, you wouldn't know what you > were looking for when you needed it later, would you? I think you can probably let yourself remember you had a really good reason. It would require a degree of double-think and self-trust that probably few of us could master. But Dumbledore is brilliant, as he has pointed out. ~Amandageist From glcherry at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 24 20:47:00 2005 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:47:00 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134623 Don't have PS / SS, or CoS right now (I've loaned them out), so would someone check this for me. Isn't there a scene in one of them when Harry is looking in a glass case at Hogwarts and sees a medal award to Tom Riddle for Special Services to the School? I'm pretty sure it's in CoS. If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. Thanks. Lorrie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 20:49:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724204933.54846.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134624 Heres my last analysis on Tom Riddle, his choices (or lack thereof), and his personality. First of all I am not a psychiatrist; I am a doctor, so Ive studied psychiatry. In my previous posts, Ive stated that Tom Riddle is psychotic, I apologize, but I was wrong, what I mean is that he is a Sociopath, hes got an anti-social personality. Since the replies (mostly by Del) I decided to go back and study my psychiatric books one more. And I was wrong, Tom has a personality disorder that is inherent to him, he cant chose to be it or not, its just who he is. The DSM-IV is the handbook for all diagnosis criteria of all psychiatric disorders. This following definition comes from there: Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV) 1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following: A. *Repeated acts that could lead to arrest*. B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of *aliases* C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. D. * Repeated assaults on others*. E. *Reckless* when it comes to their or others safety. F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. 2. At least *eighteen* years in age. 3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset *before the age of fifteen*. 4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder. This isnt criteria, but a characteristic: They appear to be *incapable of any true emotions*, from love to shame to guilt. He is an Aggressive Sociopath: They like to *hurt*, frighten, tyrannize, bully, and manipulate. They do it for a sense of *power* and control, and will often only drop subtle hints about what they are up to. They polish their aggressive, domineering manner in such a way to disguise any intimidation others might feel. They seek out positions of *power*, such as parent, teacher, bureaucrat, supervisor, or police officer. They are simply *morally depraved* individuals who represent the "monsters" in our society. They tend to operate with a grandiose demeanor, an attitude of entitlement, an insatiable appetite, and a tendency toward sadism. The diagnosis is made when symptoms 1-2-3-4 are present. The emphases are mine, to show those symptoms more noticeable to Tom. I think that anyone who would read these criteria would agree with me, its clear definition of Tom Riddle. If he had been taken to a psychiatrist while he was living as a muggle in the orphanage, or when he was at Hogwarts, he could have been treated, he could have been another different person. So, once again, I agree with Del, Tom had no choices (at least not those that are personality building). He is a sociopath, and theres nothing anyone can do about it. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 24 21:01:35 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:01:35 -0000 Subject: Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > Marianne writes: > > >If he could be ordered to live at Hogwarts by new master Harry, why > >didn't it occur to anyone in OoP to send him to Hogwarts? It would > >have removed him from Grimmauld Place and thus shut off whatever > >knowledge he might have gleaned from skulking around listening to and > >observing the various Order members who spent time there. > > > > House-elves are bound primarily to the house (thus the name), and > secondarily to the family. They can certainly leave their houses for periods, > especially to accompany the masters (note that in CoS, Chapter 18, Lucius Malfoy > brought Dobby with him to Dumbledore's office. > > Sirius, IMHO, could not order Kracher to Hogwarts, but Harry, now the master > of 12 GP, could order Kreacher to accompany him to Hogwarts. Kreacher would > have to return to 12GP when Harry left Hogwarts. Marianne: I'm not sure I buy this. Sirius shouted "Get out!" at one point to Kreacher, who promptly left the house entirely and hightailed it to the Malfoys. He was not accompanying Sirius anywhere. If Kreacher can interpret a non-specific order in such a way as to leave the house to which he is bound, I still don't see why the house's master can't tell the house-elf to go to a specific other location for some duration of time. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 24 21:01:52 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:01:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's dead hand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134626 I'm curious, how functional was Dumbledore's dead/injured hand? We know it didn't get better throughout the year, in fact, it seemed to be deteriorating, and it seemed to cause him pain. What was he able to do with it? Could he hold a wand? Could he write? I'm wondering if he actually wrote those notes to Harry, or if he had to use a Rita Skeeter-like writing pen. Wanda From beccamillott at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:33:18 2005 From: beccamillott at gmail.com (Becca) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:33:18 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kristin1778" wrote: > Also, I think if Dumbledore knew that Harry had once been a horcrux, > he would have mentioned it in HBP. There would have been no reason > to keep it from Harry. Instead, he seems to genuinely believe that > no horcrux was made that night. I really hope that Harry doesn't > have to die to defeat Voldemort, but I'm no more comforted by "the > gleam" than I am by the horcrux!Harry theory. > > Kristin I agree that Harry is not a horcrux. Dumbledore emphasized that Voldemort always avoided having to depend on anyone, so it makes sense that he would refrain from using a person has a horcrux. Dumbledore did mention that he believed that Voldemort went to the Potter's house that night to make a horcrux. Perhaps there was something there that he was lookign for? Perhaps it is still there... Also - what would have happened if Harry had been killed? Would the horcrux have been lost? I'm not sure that is a risk Voldemort would have been willing to take. The diary was risky enough. - Becca From beccamillott at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:38:36 2005 From: beccamillott at gmail.com (Becca) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:38:36 -0000 Subject: handwriting, Draco's fate, Slughorn and pineapple In-Reply-To: <158.553a91b0.30152b06@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > >>Chys: > >>THIS BUGS ME! Why didn't Harry recognize the handwriting? Did he? > >>Handwriting doesn't change that much over time. > Did Harry ever have an opportunity to see much of Snape's handwriting except on the board? As a teacher, I can safely say that my handwriting on a blackboard and on paper look very different. Even if Harry did, in fact, recognize the handwriting from somewhere, he probably dismissed the possibility of it being Snape's handwriting because he dated the book back 50 years - before Snape would have had the opportunity to write in it. Also - was the handwriting that of Snape or Snape's mother? Does it ever specify? I would think that Snape would have taken something that important with him. Perhaps it was left there purposefully and he wanted Harry to get his hands on it somehow (and the opportunity presented itself quite easily). -Becca From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:08:20 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (silencescreamsatme) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:08:20 -0000 Subject: Draco's fate-clearing up a point In-Reply-To: <20050724192126.29962.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134629 > Silence > > Especially since I am > assuming that LV can't touch Lucius himself because > he's in Azkaban. cathmorgan100 was so kind to point out to me that this sentence makes it look like I am trying to say LV can't touch Lucius because HE is in Azkaban. I meant to say that Lucius is the one in Azkaban, hence why LV is taking his anger out on Draco and not Lucius himself. Hope this clears things up! *smile* ~Silence From clio44a at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:11:35 2005 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:11:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's or Lily's Handwriting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" > Yes, she said it looked like a girl's writing. In chapter 10, Hermione > says, "It might have been a girl. I think the handwriting looks more > likea girl's than a boy's." How has Snape's handwriting been described? > > Tone, who is now checking SS for Harry's first potion class Well, Tone, I think you should rather check the pensieve scene in OotP for Snape's handwriting. I don't have the book with me, but I'm positive that it is described when Harry dives into Snape's pensive. He looks over the shoulder of Snape-the-teenager, who is taking his OWL test. If my memory serves me right Snape's handwriting is there described as small and cramped, which is more or less the wording used in HBP for the writing in the potions book. For me at least the handwriting was an important clue towards Snape as the HBP. Clio From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:14:05 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:14:05 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134631 Marcela wrote: To make this post a bit more practical and in an attempt to add to the pool of ideas for brainstorming, I'd say that we shouldn't focus on Trelawney's behaviour, which as I said above, is a bit irrelevant to the story, but that we should concentrate on Jo's designs for her: it's evident to me that Sybill is a "plot device". Her 'cracking' had to be there in order for Harry to learn about the 'eavesdropper'. Harry had to force Dumbledore to explain his reasons for trusting Snape. Dumbledore didn't have a way out now that Harry had learned of the identity of the eavesdropper. Milz replied: Oh almost every character in the series are plot-devices and Rowling has used them rather well. But my point in sharing my thoughts were due the little light bulb that went off in my head after reading Rowling's MacBeth Witches' prophecy-as-catalyst on her website. (See below for the MacB Witches and culpability). Nothing more/nothing less (and it's also a change from all the Snape-based messages too---which can get very boring, very fast, imo.) This is all speculation on my part, not "fact". :) [...] The witches show up 3 times in the play: 1.in the beginning of the play (no prophecy but they set the tone of the play),2. in the moor to tell MacB that he will eventually become King and tell Banquio that while he won't become king his descendants will, 3. in their cave where MacB gets them to tell him more of their prophecy: beware MacDuff, he can only be killed by a man not born of a woman, and that everything will be okay until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Castle. The question about the Witches is how much culpability they had in the events that followed their prophecy. Two arguments can be made (both have their points, btw) 1. The witches were merely passing on information. What MacBeth did with that info was out of their hands. Therefore, they cannot not be culpable. 2. The witches could foretell the future so in giving MacB that info, they knew he would murder---which makes them culpable because they gave him the "tools" so to speak. **Marcela now: I see your point, but I'd have to say that in my line of reasoning assigning culpability to the witches for their visions would be like assigning culpability to the weather man for announcing a tornado or a cold front coming to town... I think that if anybody was culpable was Macbeth with the choices he made with that knowledge. I'd stretch it and say that in HP we have the same deal: Snape decided to pass that (half/semi)intelligence to Voldemort, whom likewise decided to take charge of this threat and shot himself on the foot. And then, with the second prophecy, Harry "unwillingly" helped the 'Dark Lord's servant' get free, whom likewise opted to run and search for Voldemort. Interestingly, it seems that Dumbledore "unwillingly" helped the first prophecy to take place, too: after he'd heard the prophecy and realized that Snape had been eavesdropping, why didn't he 'obliviate' Snape? After all, we've seen in OoTP that he was not squimish to that idea, as he'd thought Shacklebolt was quick on the uptake to obliviate/memory charm Marietta in his presence and the others. But back to Trelawny's culpability issue, in the Macbeth's witches' case, we could argue that at least they had certain amount of freedom to choose between 'invoking' the apparitions -the armed head, the bloodied baby, and the baby with the crown and tree- yet they followed Macbeth's wishes/orders. The difference with Sybill is that she doesn't remember telling the prophecies at all... how could she be culpable of something that she cannot control nor remember saying? I'd say the "culpability" in HP's case should be placed on the recipients/listeners of the prophecies, and not the prophet herself. But that's of course my opinion, :) ----------------- Milz wrote: (BTW, how did Trelawney's drinking turn into Snape: he seems to infiltrate everything?) *Marcela now: Well, wasn't she a bit drunk when she revealed to Harry the Snape-eavesdropping issue? Her drinking was more a plot device so that we learned about the eavesdropper, than to let us know she was suffering PTSD. But I agree with you, I wish we could discuss something else other than Snape, :D Marcela From ahendon at nyc.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:02:29 2005 From: ahendon at nyc.rr.com (Alison Hendon) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:02:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <20050723234936.11873.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 134632 > Rachel said: "He cannot kill you if you are already > dead. " > > Cathy: That is NOT in my book....the line "He cannot > kill you if you are already dead" is not in the > Canadian Edition... > > AmanitaMuscaria - nor is it in the UK edition. > > Juli: Could someone please tell me what it says in the > UK and Canadian edition?? Alison: - in the UK Edition it says (p552-553): (Dumbledore)..."I can help you, Draco." " 'No, you can't,' said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. 'Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice.' 'Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Where did Rachel find that? Alison Alison Hendon alison at vabish.com "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 21:23:18 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:23:18 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134633 plittleuk wrote: > Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else (apologies if I have missed > it) but the manner in which Snape reacted to Harry calling hime a > coward when he was trying to escape the grounds seemed very OTT to me. > > Think about it - if he was really desperate to escape the scene as > quickly as possible, having someone (particularly Harry) question his > courage would be hardly likely to slow him down would it ? > > The reaction "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD...." in my eyes could be > construed along the lines of 'if only you understood the things that I > have done, am doing and will do for you, you would not call me a > coward'. > > This was the biggest indicator for me that Snape is on the side of > good - I found it a very odd thing to make a point of taking Harry to > task on at such a time when he had to get away. > > Consider what Snape has just gone through... Here is a man who is a superb Occlumens - someone who can keep his innermost thoughts, emotions, memories successfully hidden from the best Legilimens of all times, LV. He has just killed, or at the least helped to cause the death of, AD who was at the very least his mentor at Hogwarts, someone who unfailingly trusted him and said so to anyone who questioned that trust. Whether SS and AD had an Unbreakable Vow between them, or some other powerful spell, or merely true respect and trust... no matter what the motivation for hurling the AK at Dumbledore, Snape knows that AD is dead. And if there were spells, or vows, or other enchantments between them those now are gone, voided by AD's death. And if the motivation was the true respect and trust .. then those too are gone. If there is a master plan created by Dumbledore... then he was the only one (most likely) who could have proven the truth. So Snape now has to shepherd Draco back to LV, face LV without the back up of Dumbledore or the enchantments or the knowledge that one person alive in the world trusts him, respects him, and regards him as a valuable and courageous person. LV does not (most likely) truly trust anyone.. he is too suspicious and paranoid. Though he has accepted Snape back into the DEs and has sent him back to Hogwarts to spy for him, I would suspect that LV has some way of knowing if one of his DEs betrays him. Perhaps the Dark Mark is similar to the hexed parchment that Hermione collected the signatures of the DAs with... if some one betrays then they will be identified most dramatically. And my interpretation of LVs listing of the DEs who did not apparate to his side at the cemetary in GOF is that it was Snape he felt was "too cowardly to return". And if as has been speculated the Marauders in their tormenting of Snape also called him a coward... well Snape is balanced on a very thin tightrope, trying to carefully cross the chasm between Dark and Light, trying to find the true path that will insure the safety of Harry, Draco, all students at Hogwarts, and the Wizarding World. If I were in Snapes' position I too might scream DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!!! Now it maybe be apparent, but I'm in the Snape-is-good camp. I think, as has been speculated before, that Snape has been working closely with AD to implement a plan to bring LV down by training and guiding to the point that he is capable of fulfilling the prophacy and his own destiny. I think there was an Unbreakable Vow between SS and AD. As described in the scene between Snape, Narcissa, and Bellatrix an Unbreakable Vow has 3 parts to it. So what might (speculation!) such a vow consist of....? Part one: AD: Will you, Severus Snape, watch over and protect Harry Potter while he gains the skills needed to fulfill the prophecy and his destingy? SS: I will Part two: AD: And will you, to the best of your ability, provide him with the training and direction he needs to gain those skills? SS: I will Part three: AD: And will you follow my orders in every particular no matter how much you do not want to do so, even if I order you to do something that will void this Vow? SS: I will See I think that in the Spinner's End scene Snapes' hand twitched because he was momentarily worried that the 2nd Vow would be in conflict with the first one. He knew that Dumbledore might order him to kill him to save Draco from staining his soul through an act of murder. So Snape makes the 2nd vow, tells AD about it, and between them they consider as many ramifications as possible and AD says something to the effect of "well of course you must kill me if it comes to that. You must not allow Draco to be the one." And Snape argues with AD (as reported to Harry by Hagrid) because he truly does not want to kill AD! So there is may wheezing waffle for today... make of it what you will Deb - my wand is 10" long, rosewood with a core of unicorn tail From roseviolet66 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:08:47 2005 From: roseviolet66 at yahoo.com (roseviolet66) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:08:47 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Scrimgeour - Birds of a Feather? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134634 I had originally hoped that someone competent like Amelia Bones would become the next Minister, but JKR squashed that pipedream at the outset. Instead we get Rufus Scrimgeour, who appears to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from Fudge personality-wise. He's described as "an old lion" in appearance with an "impression of shrewdness and toughness." Where Fudge is waffling and thoughtless, Scrimgeour seems decisive and calculating. Perhaps a bit like old Barty Crouch, Sr., also a former head of aurors, who was rather overzealous in his prosecutions during the first war with Voldemort. Ultimately, however, Scrimgeour and Fudge have too much in common for my liking. They both envy and distrust Dumbledore, while still seeking his assistance. They share a desire to use Harry's status as "The Boy Who Lived" for their own political ends. They both have no problem with retaining incompetent sycophantic toadies like Percy and Umbridge. And both are guided by the political expediency of "appearing to do something" regardless of the cost. Just look at what Fudge did to Hagrid in CoS, and what Scrimgeour did to Stan Shunpike in HBP. Of course, the fact that Scrimgeour has kept Fudge on at the Ministry in an "advisory capacity" is simply laughable. While the Minister's name may have changed, it still seems to be politics as usual at the MoM. Roseviolet From literature_Caro at web.de Sun Jul 24 21:05:52 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_caro) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:05:52 -0000 Subject: Snape AK Dumbledore - intimate situation? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134635 This is something that struck me from the first reading on (I am sorry, I haven't got the book with me, so I cannot quote): In the scene where Dumbledore gets killed by Snape the latter for the first time reacts at the headmaster when he is called by him. Snape then pushes Draco away and moves to Dumbledore. To me it looks like now he is closest to the headmaster. Before killing Dumbledore Snape looks at him for a moment. To me this is a very intimate situation and left aside on which side Snape is now this seems to be some kind of "fare well"-situation which shows that there has been a very intense bond between them and Snape is in some way stuck in intense fellings towards Dumbledore and knows that this is the last chance to say good bye to this special person. I know this sounds like saying that Snape is good. But I really want to put emphasize on this one: If Snape did not feel for Dumbledore in any way but was icy cold on the matter of killing him then why did he get so close to him and gave Dumbledore the chance to call him for the second time instead of clearing him away while still standing in the doorway? I think I am right when saying that there is no limit in distance (short distance!) when performing the AK. But Snape took the time to create a situation in which everybody was excluded from this intimacy and it seems to me like he wished that he was on his own with Dumbldore just for one moment. What do you think about it? Caro From cjborne at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 20:54:34 2005 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:54:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE :What would convince Harry/canned memories In-Reply-To: <001c01c5908f$c36311e0$1558aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134636 Amandageist wrote: >I think you can probably let yourself remember you had a really good >reason. >It would require a degree of double-think and self-trust that probably few >of us could master. But Dumbledore is brilliant, as he has pointed out. Isn't it possible that you would have memories of that initial memory? All memories are like thread posts; there may be a thread of that memory that is remembered, though the complete memory would be in the original strand of memory. Craig From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sun Jul 24 21:37:59 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:37:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moaning Myrtle's House (bit spoiler) Message-ID: <154.5591f3ca.30156437@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134637 Well she's certainly whiny enough to be a slytherin. I found it interesting that Malfoy and her developed a relationship. In HBP we see Malfoy as more vulnerable and insecure than ever before. Viewing him in this light it's easy to see how he and Myrtle might have some things in common. Being from the same house might have been part of what got them talking in the first place. I wonder if we'll learn more about their relationship in Book 7. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Sun Jul 24 21:44:05 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:44:05 -0000 Subject: Grindlewald and Horcruxes In-Reply-To: <42E38B0C.90308@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > I've long suspected the Tom Riddle went off seeking Grindlewald when he > left Hogwarts. It now seems that although Slughorn gave Riddle general > information about Horcruxes, he could not (would not?) give him the > specific spell needed to encase the ripped soul fragment in an object. > > So where do you suppose Tom obtained this knowledge? Where better to > seek it than from the most famous Dark Wizard of the age, Grindlewald? > > My first prediction (hope) for book seven, is that we will learn more > about Grindlewald's meetings with Tom Riddle. > > digger > > Claire: I agree with you, digger. When I first ready about Grindlewald in SS/PS, I thought there was more to him than just a mention on the back of a chocolate frog card. In JKR's interview with mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron, she says it was no coincidence that Grindlewald died in 1945(although she leads one to believe it paralleled Muggle world events at the time). She says she can't answer whether Grindlewald is important in 7, which usually means he will be, in JKR-speak. From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:43:16 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moaning Myrtle's House (bit spoiler) In-Reply-To: <154.5591f3ca.30156437@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050724214316.62957.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134639 roxanne wrote: > I found it interesting that Malfoy and her developed > a relationship. In HBP > we see Malfoy as more vulnerable and insecure than > ever before. Viewing him > in this light it's easy to see how he and Myrtle > might have some things in > common. Yeah it IS kind of intesting how that all worked out thus far. Up until now I got the impression that Moaning Myrtle was intrested in Harry (note: Cos the invite to 'stay' in her toliet if Harry died and her 'peaking' at Harry while in the prefects bathroom in GOF and commenting she hasn't seen him as much in recent years) So it was intresting to see Malfoy so attached. So I am wondering if she likes Malfoy or Harry better now.... laurie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:47:01 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> Message-ID: <20050724214702.36646.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134640 Allison > No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already > dead." Where > did Rachel find that? Silence US edition, Chapter 27, p. 591 "No, you can't," said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother-it is what they would do themselves, after all..." ~Silence __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 21:56:03 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:56:03 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat as a Horcrux? In-Reply-To: <20050724174426.52649.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > I've been looking for some canon, but doesn't > Dumbledore say the only 2 remaining items of > Gryffindor are the Hat and the Sword? and didn't he > say they were never touched by Voldemort? > > Juli Allie: I wonder how he would know that... And what about Fawkes? I always kind of thought that he was originally Gryffindor's bird, passed on to Dumbledore eventually. Could he be a Horcrux? (Oh, that would be awful. Let's pretend that can't be because Dumbledore said nobody ever thought of turning a living being into a Horcrux before.) From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:59:26 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> Message-ID: <20050724215926.23508.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134642 --- Alison Hendon wrote: > > Rachel said: "He cannot kill you if you are > already > > dead. " > > > > Cathy: That is NOT in my book....the line "He > cannot > > kill you if you are already dead" is not in the > > Canadian Edition... > > > > AmanitaMuscaria - nor is it in the UK edition. > > > > Juli: Could someone please tell me what it says in > the > > UK and Canadian edition?? > > > Alison: - in the UK Edition it says (p552-553): > (Dumbledore)..."I can help you, Draco." > " 'No, you can't,' said Malfoy, his wand hand > shaking very badly > indeed. 'Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll > kill me. I've > got no choice.' > 'Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide > you more > completely than you can possibly imagine. What is > more, I can send > members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide > her likewise. > Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when > the time comes we can protect him too...come over to > the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." > > No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already > dead." Where > did Rachel find that? > Juli again: Scholastic edition, last paragraph of page 591 and continues on page 592, Chapter 27 "The lightning- struck tower": "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban... when the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco... you are not a killer." Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From darqali at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:44:53 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:44:53 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134643 Ron had detention [in GOF] and his punishment was to help Filch polish the items in the trophy cases without magic. He had to clean Riddle's award more than once, because he was still barfing up the occasional slug and he got slug slime all over it. Thus, when Harry got hold of the diary [after Ginny tried to dispose of it [by flushing] in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, Ron was able to recall Tom Riddle's name [which was the only thing which could be seen in writing on the diary, other than the year]. Again, as for the Award being the remaining 'mystery Horcrux', it is of course possible; but when would it have been made so? For the award came after Hagrid was framed and expelled [for supposedly opening the Chamber of Secrets, with Aragog the supposed 'monster']. The diary had been made .... with Moaning Myrtle's death the required soul-splitter [????] .... the award comes later .... so whose was the second death {required}? I don't recall Myrtle's supposed House affiliation, but she was Muggle-born, that was mentioned; remember, the tale of the Chamber of Secrets was that Slythern left the Chamber with the Monster {basilisk} to be released {by his true heir} to "cleanse the school of those who were unworthy {in Slythern's view} to study magic there" {McGonagall, in the movie version} .... Muggle-borns. And she wouldn't have been a parsel-tounge or she would have understood Tom's speech which opened the Chamber; she didn't; only that it was a male voice she heard .... Darqali. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 22:12:17 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <14.49d43b2a.3014fc7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050724221217.55200.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134644 To just quote two but the response is for quite a few: Shannon wrote: Well you know I've never been a big fan of Fleur, but frankly the way Molly, Ginny and Hermione treated her throughout the book really irritated me. I mean, yes, Fleur was arrogant and kind of awful, but that doesn't excuse nasty nicknames and mocking. Lynn: Quick question. So you think Molly, Ginny and Hermione have a greater duty to be nice than Fleur? It?s okay for Fleur to be openly rude and disrespectful but the others can?t express their feelings in private? phoenixgod2000 wrote: Fleur hadn't done anything but be pretty in a way that had even Hermione thinking there was nothing below the surface. I loved Fleur from the beginning, but that isn't all that surprising. I am a guy after all :) Lynn: Does this mean Fleur appears superficial? As for not doing anything but be pretty, what about all the insults, rudeness and disrespectful behavior? Though, you admit you?re probably looking at it from a guy?s perspective. Think of it this way. You are Arthur and Fleur is a guy who is Ginny?s fianc?. He comes into your workshop and just starts taking over, makes fun of your passion for Muggle things, keeps looking at himself in the mirror, puts down your friends, shows a total lack of respect for your home and thinks he?s the center of the universe. Still think he hadn?t done anything to deserve people thinking he?s nothing besides being good looking? It's at times like this that I wonder whether I'm reading about the same characters as other people and realize that we see these characters from different perspectives. Right from the time we first meet Fleur in GOF, she is haughty, arrogant, rude, vain and not only acts superior but does it by putting other people or things down. Some examples can be found in GOF on UK p. 221, 241, 271, 282 and I know there are others but I don?t feel like thumbing through GOF right now. She hasn?t changed in HBP. She?s treating Ginny as if she?s 3 or, in other words, talking down to Ginny. Nice way to treat your future sister-in-law. Bet she doesn?t treat her own sister that way. She keeps putting down Tonks even though Mrs. Weasley has made it clear that Tonks is a friend of the family. It makes no difference whether or not she thought Mrs. Weasley was trying to push Tonks on Bill, it is rude to go into someone?s home and criticize their friends. And, in doing so, points out that beauty is apparently everything since the fact that Tonks isn?t taking care of herself is such a mistake, all this while checking herself out in a spoon. She takes over Molly?s kitchen by taking Harry?s tray without asking. Again, totally rude and disrespectful. Fleur should have asked if she could take the tray. This is Molly?s house, not Fleur?s and it?s not Bill?s either. Fleur is a guest and therefore should not take things upon herself when it comes to doing things within the home unless she has asked or been given permission to do so. And, has she even asked if she could help? Apparently not otherwise she would have been helping with the dinner not saying how much better Beauxbaton does things than Hogwarts. I wouldn?t dream of going to someone?s house and acting as Fleur did here. Even my Dutch mil doesn?t come into my house and do whatever she wants until I tell her it?s okay. Then she?s a whirlwind but she respects that this is my house, not hers. Let?s not forget Fleur whips Molly across the face with her hair. Why? Apparently because Fleur feels the first thing Harry should have been told upon entering the house was that Fleur and Bill were getting married. Can we say self-centered and self-absorbed? She knew Harry had arrived in the middle of the night and that he had just woken up. Apparently, even though there is a war going on, she feels there?s nothing more important than her. We learn why Molly has some concerns about the relationship and, these are genuine concerns. Other than good looks and intelligence (and the way Fleur is acting, I?d question the intelligence part myself), what do they have in common? Bill is hardworking, Fleur is only working part-time and doesn?t appear to be showing any sign of helping in the house; Bill is down-to-earth, Fleur is full of herself and, remember, Molly reproaches Ginny for calling her Phlegm. I think Molly has genuine doubts about Fleur and, from what Fleur has shown in Molly?s presence, they are reasonable. Molly should take Bill?s word that Fleur makes him happy and he wants to spend the rest of his life with her. But, Molly may also be wondering if it is the Veela part of Fleur that is influencing Bill. Again, that?s reasonable ? look how Ron?s affected. Fleur is constantly comparing what she knows to what is available in England and things English always come out unfavorable. So, if it was me, I?d be asking why she?d want to marry someone who is English. I didn?t even wonder why Molly didn?t make Fleur a jumper ? the way Fleur disparages things, Molly probably figured Fleur wouldn?t want or wear one. Let?s not forget Christmas. Apparently no one likes listening to Celestina, Arthur even apologizes to Harry about it, but everyone else has enough respect to put up with it, except Fleur of course. Even worse, she makes fun of it after it becomes apparent that there is sentiment involved. If Fleur was truly a woman in love, wouldn?t she have understood that type of sentiment? I would. I blame Bill for not stepping in and stopping Fleur from showing such utter disrespect to his family and friends. This is not someone I?d want for a daughter-in-law. Heck, this isn?t someone I?d want for a houseguest for the weekend. I would have serious doubts if this person could truly make someone happy. Whether this person is capable of thinking of someone other than themselves. Fleur has given Molly no reason whatsoever to believe that she loves Bill for anything other than superficial reasons or is more than what meets the eye. People bring up being chosen for the Triwizard Tournament but we have no one to compare her to to understand the competition. Fleur?s initial reaction to Bill after he gets hurt is hard to interpret. If it was me, I wouldn?t have been standing there with a frozen expression on my face. It?s no wonder Molly feels Fleur will probably leave. Yes, Fleur gets upset about it. But Fleur should realize that she had a hand in giving that impression. But then, she continues to show she is still full of herself by saying she?s good looking enough for both. Hello? That?s not humor, that?s what she honestly believes. It is at the bedside that Fleur finally lets Molly know that she truly loves Bill. From Molly?s reaction, that?s all she?s needed to know. I think Molly can put up with Fleur?s obnoxiousness and self-centerness as long as she knows that Fleur truly loves Bill. Now, as much as she irritates me and I find her obnoxious, I like Fleur because she showed a depth of feeling for her sister and I believe she can have that for someone else. But then, we have been privy to this while Molly has not. However, Fleur is old enough to know what respect is and should be showing Molly and Arthur that respect simply because they are Bill?s parents. test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 22:12:31 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh no! Good Luck Potion? It's more contrived than the Time Turner! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050724221232.26890.qmail@web32606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134645 Sandra says > So unless I missed something, there now exists the > formula in > the WW for a drink which can affect the outcome of > events > around you and where you go, as long as it's not to > an extreme. > Unless JKR can come up with a brilliant way of > regulating this - > beyond saying it's tricky to make - she's created > another > implausible plot device on a par (at the very least) > with the time > turner mess. Silence says The way I see the Good Luck Potion, is that it is almost a parallel to a drug. I mean, even Ron, who only thought he had taken the potion before the Qudditch match, commented on how 'good' it felt. It makes you feel powerful, confident, like you can do anything in the world. But with drugs, the more you take them, the less effect they have on you, hence you have to take more and more just to reach the same state you took the first time. Eventually, (I think I'm not a drug addict, so I don't know this by experience! *eg*) some people become so dependent on the drugs that they have to take them just to feel NORMAL. Maybe it works the same way with Felix Felicis. The more you take of it, the less effective it becomes. So if you start drinking it all the time, you might become horribly addicted and start depending on it in ways that hinder your every day life. This could be the reason people don't use it on an every day basis. It's too dangerous to use all the time. ~Silence __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 22:14:57 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:14:57 EDT Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134646 Let's call this one SMUD--Snape Merely Unstoppers Death. I've been thinking about Snape's first speech to his new Potions class in PS/SS. Snape told the students he could teach them to "stopper death." We've debated on what that means and how it might come to be used in the series, mostly in terms of perhaps keeping Harry alive at some point. But what if this stoppering of death has already happened, and the recipient was Dumbledore? Here's my theory. When Dumbledore destroyed the ring horcrux he was hit with the curse that blackened and shrivelled--in effect, killed--his hand. I suspect the curse also would have continued its course throughout his body, except for one thing. Dumbledore went to Snape, who we now know is an even more talented wizard than we'd suspected, and perhaps the greatest Potions Master in the WW. Snape couldn't deliver a full antidote to the curse--we know that by the fact that Dumbledore's hand remains shrivelled and dead throughout HBP--but he could stop the curse in its tracks, with the Stopper Death potion, which he does. We don't know anything yet about the Stopper Death potion (if that is even its name), whether Dumbledore had to take it only once or Snape had to administer it on a regular basis, or if it can hold Death at bay permanently. But if this theory holds up, Dumbledore remains alive throughout HBP only because Snape has stoppered Death in its tracks, i.e. Albus Dumbledore is living on "borrowed" time in a sense. And from the beginning Dumbledore acts as if he believes this, as if he plans to be gone by the end of the school year--and as if he expects for Snape to be gone too. He intensifies his efforts with Harry. Where he has often been something of a background presence before, he now directly mentors Harry, as if it's time to impart to Harry every bit of his knowledge and experience while he still can. He also puts Snape in the DADA position, a position that has never been held more than a year at a time since Voldemort was refused it. He brings Slugmore, the man who has a memory he needs, to Hogwarts. And while Slugmore takes the position of Potions teacher, he manages it so that Harry will learn Potions from the real master--Snape-- in a manner Harry can truly absorb it without knowing who it's coming from, via the conveniently borrowed Potions book once owned and notated by the "Half Blood Prince." Meanwhile, Dumbledore and Snape also discuss the implications of the Unbreakable Vow, which Snape has informed him of. Dumbledore knew this day would come--when Snape would have to do something to cement his supposed loyalty to Voldemort. He might not have known how Snape would have to do it, but he is ready to incorporate it into his evolving master plan. And whether Snape immediately knew the duty he would be expected to perform if Draco failed, I suspect both Snape and Dumbledore could take a good guess. Harry is earmarked for Voldemort, and the only person truly impeding Voldemort's access to Harry is Dumbledore. Now, Dumbledore is not one to give up on a student if he doesn't have to, and he isn't about to give up on Draco. And neither is Snape. They plan to save Draco from himself, and Dumbledore informs Snape that just as Harry is more valuable to their plan than Dumbledore, so in fact is Snape. Snape cannot die if Draco fails. Thus Snape's only choice will be to "kill" Dumbledore. This isn't a worst case scenario, either. Dumbledore knows his death is just a matter of time. He is determined that his death happen in a way that it is most beneficial to the plan to destroy Voldemort. In a sense he is "choosing" when and how he wants to die. Snape reluctantly agrees to this plan, though later in their argument overheard by Hargrid Snape wants to back out. Dumbledore is the one man Snape respects most, the man who trusted him (Voldemort never trusted anyone) and a gave him a chance at redemption, and delivering the killing blow is something Snape does not want to do. But Dumbledore reminds him of his promise, and demands that Snape honor that promise. ( don't think there has to be an Unbreakable Vow here, as a promise between honorable wizards is just as binding, as it was between Harry and Dumbledore in the cave. Forward to Harry and Dumbledore's return from the cave. Dumbledore is weakened by the potion he drank and then further by the lake water. The lake water that would have turned him into an inferi--except perhaps for the Stopper Death potion. Still that potion's effectiveness must be considerably diluted by now, as we can see from Dumbledore's rapidly weakening physical state. Dumbledore tells Harry that he must get Severus Snape--not Madame Pomprey-- only Severus Snape will do. Perhaps Snape can adminster more Stopper Death potion, or perhaps Dumbledore knows it's already too late. Perhaps he also senses the Death Eaters have arrived. In any case, the time has come for Snape to fulfill his promise to Dumbledore, one way or the other Dumbledore is not so weak however that he can't freeze Harry when the action begins, to ensure that Harry will not interfere with what must happen. And not so weak that he couldn't have frozen Draco too, *if he'd wanted to.* But he doesn't want to. Instead he is determined to talk Draco out of going through with his task, to save Draco from doing something that would seal his fate. And it works. Draco doesn't have the will, or the evil inside him, to do it. But the Death Eaters who surround him certainly do. Enter Snape stage left. Snape, whose return to Voldemort is vital to the plan. Snape, who must quickly do the act before the other Death Eaters can, to preserve his own life and fulfill his promise. Snape, to whom Dumbledore pleads "Please..." before Snape has even faced him. Snape and Dumbledore share a moment of silent communication, then Dumbledore pleads again, "Severus...please..."--Please do it, don't let our plan, our ultimate goal slip through our fingers now, even if you feel hatred and revulsion at what your must do. Use that, and mean it. Oh, and say it aloud so everyone around us understands your "true" colors-- And Snape does it. Whether it's actually an AK as he says, sloppily done due to Snape's conflicting emotions while performing it, or the spoken AK is a mask for a different spell, Snape delivers the "killing" blow, and in effect releases Dumbledore from any lingering effect of the Stopper Death potion. Dumbledore flies backward, and falls to the ground, and Death claims him somewhere within the process. Harry witnesses it all, though he really knows very little. But he believes his eyes and ears, and what they tell him is that Snape viciously and without compuction murdered Dumbledore. Throughout the duel with Snape afterwards Harry is too caught up in his grief and hatred to wonder why Snape only deflects his curses, saves him from a Death Eater, taunts him with good advice, only becomes angry when Harry calls him a coward, then leaves Harry behind even though Voldemort wants Harry badly. And it's a good thing Harry doesn't look closer, because Snape would be toast if Voldemort could extract anything but conviction of Snape's DE loyalty from Harry's mind. In the end, Snape has departed with Draco (to take Draco to Voldemort if he must and defend the boy as best he can, or to hide Draco and Narcissa if he can get away with it), Dumbledore's phoenix has risen, Fawkes has gone, Harry is armed with the knowledge he needs, and most members of the OotP believe Snape has truly returned to Voldemort (leaving out the few who weren't present, like Mad-Eye Moody, and Hagrid, who didn't actually condemn Snape in words). Dumbledore's plan, begun before the start of the book, and revised as needed, has worked, and everything is in place for Book Seven, where the plan will continue to unfold. If the plan is sucessful, Harry will live, Voldemort will be destroyed, and Snape--dead or alive--will be vindicated and redeemed. (And I have no doubt the plan will ultimately succeed--the fun will be in discovering the specifics.) As a final note, this theory also releases Snape from any blame in Dumbledore's death, since Snape doesn't actually kill Dumbledore. He simply releases him from the protection of the Stopper Death potion, and nature then takes its course. I know it's a fine line-- especially if Dumbledore could remain alive indefinitely. But would Dumbledore even want to stay alive under such artificial means, especially when Death is just the next great adventure to him? I think he would have allowed Death to take him earlier, if it weren't for his need to secure Harry's future. And that's it. I may be way offbase (no doubt I am), but it could work! Julie (Dumbledorephile and Snapophile) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sun Jul 24 22:15:22 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:15:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: <20050724045419.13427.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050724045419.13427.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4474aa62f26da13a32579b825430a6e5@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134647 cathio2002: > I don't know about anybody else, but I was (and still am) bummed out > after reading HBP. It was really good, but the ending was quite > depressing. Dumbledore's death. Snape killing Dumbledore. Snape's > betrayal. Any comments? Yes, Dumbledore's death and the manner in which he died is depressing. While I think if DD had a choice he would prefer preferred to go out fighting; however for much of this particular "fight," DD is unable to fight back. He is weak and surrounded by horrible group of DEs. And as far as Snape is concerned...not exactly sure what to make of it. There is something else going on. Of course it could be that DD knew that Snape had to be a betray him, for the events to fall in place that will lead to LV's destruction. Or? Oddly enough, I think the part where Snape blasts DD off the Tower at Hogwarts is more in line with how DD would prefer to die. It would be in DD's "style." Yes, the DD we have read about would prefer to go out with a bang rather than a slow lingering death. And he would prefer to die at Hogwarts too. Only it's would have been better if it had been killed by a confirmed enemy rather than a "friend." Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) On Jul 24, 2005, at 12:54 AM, ! wrote: (`'?.?(`'?.?-:?:-?.?' ?)?.?'?) -:?:-??..-:?:-* ~ Barbara~ *-:?:-..??-:?:- (?.?'?(?.?'?-:?:-`'?.?)`'?.?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captnmaverick at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 22:19:24 2005 From: captnmaverick at hotmail.com (P and M) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:19:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134648 See, here's a very perverted way to look at this love business. When Harry and Dumbledore were seeing Riddle's memories, I wa strucj by how Riddle got attached to objects ... and having been abandoned, in some very strange way, you grow to love, but in a very obsessive kinda way. Riddle grew to love the Dark side, and maybe, that was a way to mask the desire to actually love someone--anyone--in the purest form imaginable. That's what Harry had come to realize--this fight was between him, LV, and Harry, alone. Harry, I believe, will win this battle in one way: He still loves those who have been affected, although they're gone from his life (Sirius, his parents, now Dumbledore.) Now, my twist: Before I got to the conclusion, I think Snape loved Lily, got to James first, and, on Snape's orders, and as well as LV's own hatred of Muggle-borns, killed Harry's parents out of obsessive love and blinding jealousy. Snape was likely confronted by LV on his cowardice to kill the Potters--much similar to Draco's cowardice to kill Dumbledore, and Snape, seeing redemption on his part by LV, chucked Dumbledore himself. Based on Harry's visit to Snape's Pensieve and the memory he'd seen, as for Snape, my guess: his love for Lily (I forget which Harry's parents bloodline were, somebody remind me!) prompted him to kill her, b/c, if he couldn't have her, no one could, and he just couldn't bring himself to do her in. He loved Lily. Obsessive loved, Lily, that is. So, simply, LV did it, out of his hatred of Mudbloods, to be immortal--and maybe, to exact revenge on behalf of Snape. I don't post that lightly; Snape's hatred of James went to Harry simply b/c Harry was the "lucky" by-product of what coulda been Snape's. And, Harry did find Snape's Potions book, too, meaning that, in snape's warped mind, all the more reason to hate who Harry is, who he came from, and what Snape possibly could have been. The "could have been" was what Dumbledore so strongly believed in, but we're not gonna know, now will we? ~Maverick From captnmaverick at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 22:23:55 2005 From: captnmaverick at hotmail.com (P and M) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:23:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's dead hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: > I'm curious, how functional was Dumbledore's dead/injured hand? We > know it didn't get better throughout the year, in fact, it seemed to > be deteriorating, and it seemed to cause him pain. What was he able > to do with it? Could he hold a wand? Could he write? I'm wondering > if he actually wrote those notes to Harry, or if he had to use a Rita > Skeeter-like writing pen. > > Wanda I don't think he was able to do more with it than simply direct with it. Remember, Marvolo's ring used to be on one of the dead fingers, and, the hand was dead/dying b/c it was a blood sacrifice to the door to access that sinister lake the Inferi were kept in. And to think, Dumbledore drank that nasty green potion to get to a FAKE Horcrux? Lesson: Drinking anything green USUALLY isn't a good thing. ~Maverick From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Jul 24 22:49:09 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:49:09 -0000 Subject: Trelawney,Drink, MacBeth Witches (was Re: Part 3 of JKR's MN/TLC interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002" wrote: > Marcela wrote: > To make this post a bit more practical and in an attempt to add to > the pool of ideas for brainstorming, I'd say that we shouldn't focus > on Trelawney's behaviour, which as I said above, is a bit irrelevant > to the story, but that we should concentrate on Jo's designs for > her: it's evident to me that Sybill is a "plot device". > Her 'cracking' had to be there in order for Harry to learn about > the 'eavesdropper'. Harry had to force Dumbledore to explain his > reasons for trusting Snape. Dumbledore didn't have a way out now > that Harry had learned of the identity of the eavesdropper. > > Milz replied: > Oh almost every character in the series are plot-devices and Rowling > has used them rather well. > But my point in sharing my thoughts were due the little light bulb > that went off in my head after reading Rowling's MacBeth Witches' > prophecy-as-catalyst on her website. (See below for the MacB Witches > and culpability). Nothing more/nothing less (and it's also a change > from all the Snape-based messages too---which can get very boring, > very fast, imo.) This is all speculation on my part, not "fact". :) > [...] > The witches show up 3 times in the play: 1.in the beginning of the > play (no prophecy but they set the tone of the play),2. in the moor > to tell MacB that he will eventually become King and tell Banquio > that while he won't become king his descendants will, 3. in their > cave where MacB gets them to tell him more of their prophecy: beware > MacDuff, he can only be killed by a man not born of a woman, and that > everything will be okay until Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Castle. > > The question about the Witches is how much culpability they had in > the events that followed their prophecy. Two arguments can be made > (both have their points, btw) 1. The witches were merely passing on > information. What MacBeth did with that info was out of their hands. > Therefore, they cannot not be culpable. 2. The witches could foretell > the future so in giving MacB that info, they knew he would > murder---which makes them culpable because they gave him the "tools" > so to speak. > > > **Marcela now: > I see your point, but I'd have to say that in my line of reasoning > assigning culpability to the witches for their visions would be like > assigning culpability to the weather man for announcing a tornado or > a cold front coming to town... I think that if anybody was culpable > was Macbeth with the choices he made with that knowledge. > > I'd stretch it and say that in HP we have the same deal: Snape > decided to pass that (half/semi)intelligence to Voldemort, whom > likewise decided to take charge of this threat and shot himself on > the foot. And then, with the second prophecy, Harry "unwillingly" > helped the 'Dark Lord's servant' get free, whom likewise opted to > run and search for Voldemort. > > Interestingly, it seems that Dumbledore "unwillingly" helped the > first prophecy to take place, too: after he'd heard the prophecy > and realized that Snape had been eavesdropping, why didn't > he 'obliviate' Snape? After all, we've seen in OoTP that he was not > squimish to that idea, as he'd thought Shacklebolt was quick on the > uptake to obliviate/memory charm Marietta in his presence and the > others. > > But back to Trelawny's culpability issue, in the Macbeth's witches' > case, we could argue that at least they had certain amount of > freedom to choose between 'invoking' the apparitions -the armed > head, the bloodied baby, and the baby with the crown and tree- yet > they followed Macbeth's wishes/orders. > > The difference with Sybill is that she doesn't remember telling the > prophecies at all... how could she be culpable of something that she > cannot control nor remember saying? > > I'd say the "culpability" in HP's case should be placed on the > recipients/listeners of the prophecies, and not the prophet > herself. But that's of course my opinion, :) > > ----------------- > > Milz wrote: (BTW, how did Trelawney's drinking turn into Snape: he > seems to infiltrate everything?) > > *Marcela now: Well, wasn't she a bit drunk when she revealed to > Harry the Snape-eavesdropping issue? Her drinking was more a plot > device so that we learned about the eavesdropper, than to let us > know she was suffering PTSD. > But I agree with you, I wish we could discuss something else other > than Snape, :D > > Marcela Again, I'm not assigning culpability to Trelawney or to Snape (why do we keep going back to him?). I'm not even making excuses for her drinking problem. I'm merely sharing something that make me think "Ahhh, wow! Maybe..." when I read on Rowling's site about the MacBeth Witches. Unless Rowling specifically writes in Book 7 or gives this information in an interview or on her site (or in a Harry Potter encyclopedia), we'll never know exactly what fueled Trelawney's taste for sherry. Heck, for all we know she's been hitting the bottle since she began teaching at Hogwarts (or even before). In fact, if her drinking problem is a chronic one, it might explain Dumbledore's remark during the PoA Chrismas Dinner (my additional comments in [] ): "Sybil, this is a pleasant surprize!" said Dumbledore, standing up. "I have been crystal gazing [ie: admiring the color of her wine in crystal wine goblets], Headmaster, " said Professor Trelawney in her mistiest, most faraway voice [*cough* buzzed off her feet*cough* ;)], "and to my astonishement, I saw myself abandoning my solitary luncheon [serious note, some alcoholics are closet drinkers and are solitary so they can imbibe freely] and coming to join you [after having a drink to steady her nerves]. Who am I to refuse the promptings of fate? I at once hastened from my tower, and I do beg you to forgive my lateness.." lol Anyway..... :) Milz From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 22:49:34 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:49:34 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: Lorrie: > Don't have PS / SS, or CoS right now (I've loaned them out), so would > someone check this for me. > > Isn't there a scene in one of them when Harry is looking in a glass > case at Hogwarts and sees a medal award to Tom Riddle for Special > Services to the School? > > I'm pretty sure it's in CoS. > > If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume > the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. Geoff: I think this is what you are looking for, and interestingly, there are two items involved: 'Harry saw at once that it was a diary and the faded year on the cover told him it was fifty years old. He opened it eagerly. On the first page, he could just make out the name 'T.M.Riddle' in smudged ink. "Hang on," said Ron who had approached cautiously and was looking over Harry's shoulder. "I know that name... T.M.Riddle got an award for special services to the school fifty years ago." "How on earth d'you know that?" said Harry in amazement. "Because Filch made me polish his shield about fifty times in detention," said Ron resentfully.' (COS "The Very Secret Diary" pp.172-73 UK edition) 'Nevertheless, Harry was determined to find out more about Riddle so, next day at break, he headed for the trophy room to examine Riddle's special award, accompanied by an interested Hermione and a thoroughly unconvinced Ron, who told them he'd seen enough of the trophy room to last him a lifetime. Riddle's burnished gold shield was tucked away in a corner cabinet. It didn't carry details of why it had been given to him ("Good thing too, or it'd be even bigger and I'd still be polishing it," said Ron). However, they did find Riddle's name on an old Medal for Magical Merit and on a list of old Head Boys.' (ibid. pp.174-75) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 24 23:02:49 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:02:49 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <20050724215926.23508.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > > --- Alison Hendon wrote: > > > > Rachel said: "He cannot kill you if you are > > already > > > dead. " > > > > > > Cathy: That is NOT in my book....the line "He > > cannot > > > kill you if you are already dead" is not in the > > > Canadian Edition... > > > > > > AmanitaMuscaria - nor is it in the UK edition. > > > > > > Juli: Could someone please tell me what it says in > > the > > > UK and Canadian edition?? Geoff: The variation between the three editions has already been mentioned, originally in messages 134170-134207-134324-134344-134458-134459. However, no one has yet produced any theories why they differ. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Jul 24 23:36:37 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:36:37 -0700 Subject: Wormtail and Werewolves (was: Query: How Do Curses Work?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7410386746.20050724163637@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134653 Friday, July 22, 2005, 7:59:35 AM, Lynete wrote: L> And when Greyback L> dies, is it possible all the people he made werewolves would be L> restored to normality? We are of one mind on this one, and I personally have become enamoured with this scenario: Greyback attacks Harry and Wormtail kills Greyback with his silver hand. This not only saves Harry's life and pays off the life debt, but it also cures Lupin (and Bill)! I think this is one of the few things Wormtail could do to atone (at least in Harry's POV) for his helping LV return to power, and therefore make Harry "very glad he saved Pettigrew's life". -- Dave From bd-bear at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 23:59:02 2005 From: bd-bear at comcast.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:59:02 -0400 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134654 I just came across this old post that I had saved from last year. . . See #14? I think that was the one foreshadowing the "something" in book 6. But #23 might also have foreshadowed the Hr/R relationship. Barbara >>>From: mikefeemster [mailto:mikefeemster at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:41 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA List of Differences (spoilers) Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what you think. 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed.<<< From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 23:59:17 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:59:17 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darqali" wrote: > Again, as for the Award being the remaining 'mystery Horcrux', it is > of course possible; but when would it have been made so? For the > award came after Hagrid was framed and expelled [for supposedly > opening the Chamber of Secrets, with Aragog the supposed 'monster']. > > The diary had been made .... with Moaning Myrtle's death the required > soul-splitter [????] .... the award comes later .... so whose was the > second death {required}? > hg replies: I'm of the mind that the award is indeed a horcrux. It's important to note that 1)Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, not Tom Riddle; 2) when Tom is talking to Slughorn, he is a prefect (so he's 5th or 6th year, because we know in his seventh year he was head boy), and he is wearing the ring; 3)he asks about making multiple horcruxes, and seems to not know what spell is required in forming one; 4)he is not wearing the ring when he is Diary Tom, otherwise JK would have shown it; and 5) Diary Tom is repeatedly stated to be 16. >From all that I have deduced that Tom opened the chamber at the end of his 5th year, 1943, allowing Myrtle to be killed and framing Hagrid. He then went to the orphanage and left, going to talk with Morfin Gaunt, going to kill the Riddles, going back to implant the memory of the murder in Morfin's mind and taking the ring. Now when he returns to Hogwart's: it's the beginning of his sixth year; he's still 16 because his birthday is December 31/January 1; he's got an award, a ring and three murders under his belt. It's likely that he knew murder was a necessary component of the process of making a horcrux, and that the multiple murder gave him the idea of making multiple horcruxes. It seems to me that based on this evidence, sometime between the talk with Slughorn and Tom's 17th birthday (between September 1st, 1943 and New Year's Eve 1943-44) Tom found out how to make horcruxes and made three, because he had three murders: the ring, the award, and the diary. The diary was the distinctive horcrux in that it was intended to be a weapon, to replicate himself, so it probably would have been made after the ring and the award and hence the lack of ring on Diary Tom's finger. The award would be a special treasure in that it was HIS, but it was a stolen honor, much the same as the ring was rightfully his but also stolen. What I'm puzzling about is where in canon is there an actual quote stating that Tom committed the murders after he graduated (1945), because this is where the lexicon dates it, and why the opening chapter of GoF places the murders of the Riddles in 1944 (saying "fifty years ago" when the year of that story is 1994). hg. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 23:59:13 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:59:13 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility (plus a little bit of Spinner's End and Slughorn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134656 Lorrie: If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. Geoff: I think this is what you are looking for, and interestingly, there are two items involved: (Geoff then posted about the trophy and medal) Schumar: I like the basis of this theory, especially in light of the fact that the trophy was "tucked away in a corner cabinet" and I can only suppose that the My only question would be How would Voldemort get from committing a murder, which did not happen at school (Moaning Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, not Tom) to the school to make it a horcrux. I wish we had more information about horcruxes, like how you get your piece of your soul into the object. And speaking of "object", it is my feeling that horcruxes have to be OBJECTS and not living beings. I also don't believe that you would want to kill a destroy a Horcrux except by having to use it, and I think a horcrux Would have to use the life of another person (like the diary was using Ginny's life and perhaps that ring killed Dumbledore's hand) in order to serve its purpose. And speaking of horcruxes and their purpose, Snape clearly knows HOW Dumbledore injured his arm, because DD says that he's ok thanks to professor Snape and Snape did tell Bellatrix and Narcissa that Dumbledore has sustained an injury... but I read so much into the omission of details from Snape to the two women. Also, when When Snape talks to Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End, he brings up the fact that he has never been given his dream job. Then, weeks later, he has it. I imagine Snape conveying to Dumbledore about Draco's mission and his Unbreakable Vow. Snape and Dumbledore and thy both KNOW this will be Snape's last year at Hogwarts (at least until the war is over) and therefore the "curse" of the DADA post doesn't change the nevitable, and it gives Dumbledore a reason to need Slughorn (whom I doubt would have been persuaded to take a DADA job) to the school in order to glean more information about horcruxes so that Dumbledorecan instruct Harry on everything he needs and then get out of the way so that Harry can face Voldemort. Plus, having Snape in the DADA post still makes a way to still have Snape instruct Harry, like he did up to the "until you remember to close your mind " Marianne S. (hoping people will respond so I know if I'm making things out of nothing or not!) From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Sun Jul 24 23:56:33 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:56:33 -0000 Subject: Prophecy misinterpretation?/Oho! in The Cave Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134657 Hello, Something about the prophecy Trelawney made has struck me as odd since I first read it. After I read HBP, I've given more thought to it and wrote up the following ideas which may be unlikely, but interest me nevertheless: Could the few who know the contents of the prophecy (or part of it) have misinterpreted it? In other literarure, prophecies are often tricky and can be interpreted several ways. It is important that LV interpreted the part of the prophecy that he heard in the most literal way; he seems to have waited to see which boys would be born at the end of July to parents who had defied him three times and chose to target the Potters because it resulted in his temporary downfall, Harry's scar, etc...and may, as Dumbledore put it, have given Harry, "the tools for the job" and created the very conditions under which the prophecy would be fulfilled. Yet, not all prophecies are self-fulfilling as we saw in Prisoner of Azkaban -- Trelawney's prediction there came true on its own. What if neither Harry or Neville are "The Chosen One", but someone else who has the ability to vanquish LV (Note that the prophecy never says that this person will be successful)? These are some musings I have had lately about the prophecy, since reading HBP: Take the prophecy line by line (sorry if I get part slightly wrong, I am doing this from memory and do not have the book in front of me right now): The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approches. With the word "born" in the next line, this is usually interpreted to refer to the approching birth of the one who has this power. Who was literally approaching when this prophecy was made? Severus Snape. Born to those who have thrice defied him. Born as the seventh month dies. It seems that Snape's mother would have attended Hogwarts at the same time as LV/Tom Riddle based on Snape's age, and the date of the textbook, which was likely a hand-me-down from his mother. Who knows what her knowledge of, or relationship to LV might have been? The word "die" referring to the seventh month is, of course, not literal...just meaning at the end of the month. What if the second "born" is also not literal. That is, the one with the power to vanquish LV became that way at the end of July/was reborn at the end of July as someone who could/would want to defeat LV. In this case, it could have been at same time as the birth of Harry, when Snape realized that LV was now going to target the Potters and he realized that he had made a horrible mistake in telling LV about the Prophecy, and apparently changed sides. And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal. I had serious problems with this line after reading Order of the Phoenix when it was published. Certainly, LV did unintentionally mark Harry and left Harry with some of his abilities and a link to him (though Harry's abilities, other than his caring and ability to love never seems equal to Voldemort's -- Snape is right about Harry having some luck and talented friends, but I think relying on and trusting his friends is one of his strengths. However, this line (the "as his equal" part) seemed to me that LV was acually acknowledging this person as his equal, something which I cannot see LV doing as he thinks himself superior to everyone else. The Death Eaters are "marked" by Voldemort, but are NOT equals -- they are "servants of the Dark Lord". Who would be most likely to be marked as an equal by LV? Someone who had killed the only one he ever feared. But he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not. Well, if this prophecy applied to Snape, as I've suggested above, who knows what this power would be? Even if Snape does come out on the side of good, he has been mean consistently mean to many of his students, sneering, giving insults, etc and does not seem to have the power of love. I kind of want this prophecy to apply to Harry as I like the idea that love will overcome Voldemort. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. Well, Harry and LV and Snape and LV have been living/surviving at the same time for a while now. I know it is a long shot, but could this refer to an internal conflict?..The one who the Dark Lord has marked as his equal cannot coexist within the same person as the one having the power the Dark Lord knows not? At first I thought perhaps this perhaps referred to the part of LV that exists in Harry (though I'm still not sure if Harry himself is a horcrux, I think, probably, his scar is and that he will think he has to sacrifice himself to kill LV when he realizes this). Certainly it must be difficult and conflicting to be a double agent and play both sides. ...and the last line is simply a repetition. Also, to comment on recent posts about the possibility that it was perhaps Slughorn who went to the cave polyjuiced as DD, as he said "Oho!": I don't think so...Filch also says "Oho!" in the book and both Slughorn and Filch are present after DD's death (plus Filch is a Squib and it couldn't have been him). I think that Oho! is just a common expression of surprise and think it really was Dumbledore in the cave. Your thoughts? Cheryl From katya_de_leon at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 23:31:01 2005 From: katya_de_leon at yahoo.com (jade_silverwind) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:31:01 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134658 Lorrie: Isn't there a scene in one of them when Harry is looking in a glass > case at Hogwarts and sees a medal award to Tom Riddle for Special > Services to the School? > > I'm pretty sure it's in CoS. > > If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume > the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. That's a very interesting possibility Lorrie. And I believe it was Ron who found it, in COS. They both got dentention for arriving in the flying car. Harry helped Professor Lockhart with his fan mail and Ron had to help Filtch polish all the silver in the trophy room without using magic. It was then that Ron discovered the trophy. ~Kate From bccissell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:19:37 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:19:37 -0000 Subject: Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134659 > > Marianne writes: > > House-elves are bound primarily to the house (thus the name), and > > secondarily to the family. I don't know if this is true; though it does make sense given the term HOUSEelf. But I think that Kreacher was not sent to Hogwarts before because he was safer(for the order, I mean) at 12GP. While Sirius was alive, he had to follow Sirius' commands, so it was best to keep him near Sirius. After OOTP, Kreacher has to follow Harry's commands, so it is best to keep him near (sortof) Harry. bciss From cjborne at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 23:03:41 2005 From: cjborne at comcast.net (Craig Borne) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:03:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134660 Darqali wrote: The diary had been made .... with Moaning Myrtle's death the required soul-splitter [????] .... the award comes later .... so whose was the second death {required}? Couldn't the death of Moaning Myrtel have created a Horcrux in one of the awards (whether the service award or the magical merit award)? It seems that a death in Hogwarts would have been necessary to create a Horcrux in Hogwarts. The Horcrux in the diary could have been made after Tom left school because it was in Malfoy's possession and not locked in the trophy room of the school. The diary could have been easily created off campus, but an item in the trophy room *must* have been made within the school as these items are locked within the trophy room. Craig From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Mon Jul 25 00:10:49 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:10:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/U... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134661 Well now we know what question we should ask for jkr website faq poll, don't we. It is possible that the us thought it sounded better, although that is bad. Also, it could be that when they set the computers for printing that a mistake was made and it was left off. Everything else after that is word for word. Remmber there's a difference in gof when fudge is talking to harry in the hospital. We argued for weeks about it a couple of years ago. danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Mon Jul 25 00:13:44 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:13:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> References: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> Message-ID: <42E42EB8.6040603@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134662 Alison Hendon wrote: > > Rachel said: "He cannot kill you if you are already > > dead. " > > > > Cathy: That is NOT in my book....the line "He cannot > > kill you if you are already dead" is not in the > > Canadian Edition... > > > > AmanitaMuscaria - nor is it in the UK edition. > > > > Juli: Could someone please tell me what it says in the > > UK and Canadian edition?? > > > Alison: - in the UK Edition it says (p552-553): > (Dumbledore)..."I can help you, Draco." > " 'No, you can't,' said Malfoy, his wand hand shaking very badly > indeed. 'Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've > got no choice.' > 'Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more > completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send > members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. > Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we > can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a > killer..." > > No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Where > did Rachel find that? > > Alison Kathy writes: Apparently, it is in the U.S. version. A few extra lines were added. KJ From louisemorrice at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 21:06:43 2005 From: louisemorrice at yahoo.co.uk (louisemorrice) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:06:43 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: <20050724204933.54846.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134663 Juli: > So, once again, I agree with Del, Tom had no choices > (at least not those that are personality ? building). > He is a sociopath, and there's nothing anyone can do > about it. Louise: Because of Tom's early life he has a sense/fear of abandonment which contributes to his need to hurt people etc. Tom would also because of this not let anyone get particularly close to him and would use people to his own advantage, this is inherent behaviour of a psycohpath. If he were not a wizard he would probably be a serial killer. Louise. From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 25 00:53:37 2005 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:53:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050724221217.55200.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050724221217.55200.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42E43811.1070306@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134664 Lynn said: > Quick question. So you think Molly, Ginny and Hermione have a greater > duty to be nice than Fleur? Its okay for Fleur to be openly rude and > disrespectful but the others cant express their feelings in private? No, it's not ok. And no one has a greater duty to be nice than anyone else. But Fleur's greatest sin is being tactless and a little arrogant. As far as we can see, she doesn't make personal judgements against anyone in the family, the way they have all done with her. Hermione and Ginny at least, know there is more to Fleur, or they should after the Tri-Wizard tournament. They don't even have nasty nicknames for Malfoy, someone they have very personal, specific reasons for hating. Maybe it wouldn't have bothered me so badly if I hadn't been so irritated by the behavior both of Ginny and of Hermione through the entire book. Both of them seemed to be suffering from dreadful superiority complexes and their behavior towards Fleur was just another example of it. Shannon From reyakittens at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 21:59:31 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:59:31 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050723062901.25658.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134665 Silence wrote: > As I think, as a firm Snape-lover, the choice of > wording is rather depressing. The word culpable is > what got me there. She's basically saying that Snape > is worthy of some blame here. Which makes me think > that I'm one of the 'delusional desperate clingers' > when it comes to Snape. > > It just would be so disappointing to have him be > really evil after all this time. Snape has been one of > my favorite fictional characters for years now. To > have him be a bad guy after all...I don't know if my > heart can take it! This is what makes JK so brilliant. She had most of her readership convinced Snape was innocent all because DD trusted him... she's amazing imo -- just amazing. She created a character in DD that everyone trusted without a doubt -- when Harry spoke ill of Snape not only were Ron, Lupin, etc., saying "Oh Harry, DD trusts him" but so were the readers. And the end of book 6 is the ulimate shock because no one saw that coming. What a plot twist. Don't think Snape will be redeemed, folks. And while over the last two years I had hoped Sirius would come back somehow, I'm now convinced he isn't and DD definitely isn't. Someone posted something about why DD had to die and I agree 100% and Harry realizes it himself at the end of the book. There is no one left to protect him -- he won't even begin to get Prof McGonagall involved because he knows that this is it -- this is his fight now. I cried so hard when DD died (on the NYC train no less) but this passage where Harry comes to terms with DD dying and understanding why he had to die... Well that made me feel closure.. It makes sense and it had to happen. robyn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 01:00:34 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:00:34 -0000 Subject: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134666 Vivamus wrote: > > Did anyone notice that the AK does *NOT* blast things? > > When the Riddle family were killed, they didn't have a mark on them other than expressions of terror. And so on. A *missed* AK might be expected to blast something. > > > > When Snape supposedly AK'd DD, DD was blasted through the parapet. What if, as someone else already has suggested, Snape did not mean the AK at all... > Merrylinks responded: > Yes! Yes! [T]he effect of Snape's AK was unlike any successful AK we have seen so far in the books. Dumbledore should have expired instantaneously, slumping to the floor because his legs would no longer support him, but with eyes open and with no change in his facial expression. > > It is unclear to me what caused Dumbledore to be blasted into the air and then to fall from the tower. Was it the effect of a partially effective AK coming from Snape? Carol adds: I agree that there's something very strange about this AK. Not only is Dumbledore thrown into the air, but his eyes, in marked contrast to the Riddles' and Cedric's (in GoF), are *closed* and he looks (except for the odd angle of his limbs) "as if he might have been sleeping" (HBP Am. ed. 608)His eyes would not have been closed if he'd been killed by an AK, nor would he have worn a peaceful expression. He must have had time to close his eyes, to compose his thoughts and his expression, before he hit the ground and was killed by the fall. It's even possible that he died in midair, weakened by age and injury and exhaustion and poison but still a great wizard whose last act was to choose the moment of his death (which of course was inevitable and imminent in any case). As for the spell, we know that Snape is an expert at nonverbal spells (he's been teaching them to his students all year) and we see him using them to deflect Harry's curses and hexes later in the chapter, so I rather like Valky's theory that he's thinking of some other spell as he casts the AK. (I don't think Occlumency would have been necessary, only that the spell be "nvbl.") She suggests a hover charm, but what about Impedimenta instead? It might block the force of the AK or even hinder it if he thought it before he spoke, and it might explain why Dumbledore was blasted into the air, as we've noted is not normal for a successful AK. Compare these passages: A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. . . . [Harry] was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP 596 Am. ed.) and "Impedimenta!" yelled Harry. His jinx hit Amycus in the chest. He gave a piglike squeal of pain,was lifted off his feet and into the opposite wall, slid down it, and fell out of sight behind Ron. (HBP 599) DD doesn't squeal, of course, but both he and Amycus are blasted/lifted into the air. There is no wall for Dumbledore to slide down because he's not inside a building; he's at the top of a crenellated tower. When Amycus falls backward, he hits the wall and slides down to the floor. But when DD falls backward, he is above the battlements and there is only empty air behind him. I don't think Snape has any illusions about DD's survival as they exchange a last thought and he points his wand; he must know that his spell will knock DD over the wall and that DD will die, whatever spell he casts. And he knows that it must *appear* to be a Killing Curse, the Dark Lord's own weapon. Anything else will look suspicious to the Death Eaters, and he must not fail to convince them that he is Voldemort's man. But it's just possible that, brilliant as we know Snape is, he disguised an Impedimenta as an AK so that, even though he did the terrible thing that the vow (and DD?) forced him to do, at least he didn't have to kill Dumbledore with an Unforgiveable Curse. I'm not sure of this theory, of course, but I don't think the similarity of the two passages, only two pages apart, is accidental, nor do I think that JKR threw in the detail of DD's closed eyes and peaceful expression for no reason. I think it's also significant that the expression of his sleeping portrait is "peaceful and untroubled" (626), implying that neither his death nor Snape's role in it disturbs Portrait!Dumbledore in the least. One small objection that I can think of: it's possibile that Impedimenta normally is some color other than green (does anyone know?), but Snape would have had to make sure that the light of *his* spell was green in order to pull off this deception. If anyone could do that, it's Snape. I don't know if Impedimenta is the explanation for the abnormal AK, but I think it's a plausible theory--and a beacon of hope for those of us who care about Snape to hold onto as we wait those long two years for the next book. They also serve who only stand and wait. Carol, wondering if the Phoenixlike thing that rises from DD's chest just before the tomb encloses him is his spirit belatedly leaving his body From joseph at kirtland.com Sun Jul 24 22:33:05 2005 From: joseph at kirtland.com (Joe Bento) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:33:05 -0000 Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134667 juli17 at a... wrote: > Let's call this one SMUD--Snape Merely Unstoppers Death. > Enter Snape stage left. Snape, whose return to Voldemort > is vital to the plan. Snape, who must quickly do the act > before the other Death Eaters can, to preserve his own > life and fulfill his promise. Snape, to whom Dumbledore > pleads "Please..." before Snape has even faced him. Snape > and Dumbledore share a moment of silent communication, > then Dumbledore pleads again, "Severus...please..."--Please > do it, don't let our plan, our ultimate goal slip through our > fingers now, even if you feel hatred and revulsion at what > your must do. Use that, and mean it. Oh, and say it aloud > so everyone around us understands your "true" colors-- Very interesting post, and I'd certainly like to believe it. Draco and Snape have been among my favorite characters in the books. While I'd like to think that Snape is still fighting for the right, I have a problem with how he committed the AV curse on Dumbledore. Though I wish I could see otherwise, I still see the hate and revulsion directed at Dumbledore rather than at the task he is forced to commit. As he is fleeing, he "protects" Harry just by stating that Harry is reserved for LV. Harry still has trouble with unforgivable curses, since it is not part of his personality to feel that sort of hatred. Harry also has difficulty shielding his thoughts as well as silent incantations. I think that after witnessing Dumbledore's death things will change. Harry will likely feel intense hatred towards Snape as well as Draco. I think Snape would be wise to keep his guard up, as it's unlikely Harry will listen to him - unless perhaps Dumbledore's portrait provides some counsel. Joe From lthyer at carolina.rr.com Mon Jul 25 00:35:05 2005 From: lthyer at carolina.rr.com (Lisa Thyer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:35:05 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E39F75.24361.10BDDE82@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134668 Alison: > No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." > Where did Rachel find that? "He cannot kill you if you are already dead" is found at the very bottom of pg 591 US edition. "Lisa" From ja9shahinian at comcast.net Mon Jul 25 00:24:32 2005 From: ja9shahinian at comcast.net (Janine R. Shahinian) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:24:32 -0400 Subject: Prophecy ellipses and Trelawney's revelation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134669 I'm at least 1,000 messages behind, so forgive me if someone already posted on this. What do we make of the new information that Snape burst into the room after Sybil spoke the prophecy to DD? Did DD lie to Harry when he said, "the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building" (p. 843 OotP Am hardback)? Clearly, DD didn't tell the whole truth to Harry. Trelawney told Harry: "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore -- [snip]" (p. 545 HBP Am. hardback). So Snape heard the first part of the prophecy, the "barman" confronts him and apprehends him, and there is a commotion outside the door that lasts through the remaining telling of the prophecy, preventing Snape from hearing anything else. Then when Trelawney is finished and snaps out of her trance, Snape and the "barman" burst into the room and it is only later that Snape is thrown from the building. But had DD let Harry know that he got a look at the eavesdropper before he was thrown out, Harry would have asked who it was and DD wasn't prepared to tell Harry that it was Snape. How convenient, then, that DD used the pensieve's EasyView mode to replay Trelawney giving the prophecy. And now we know why there were pauses in the replay. Had Harry entered the pensieve, I'm sure we would have seen some kind of white-out tampering like we saw in Slughorn's first memory where DD needed to block out the sounds of the commotion when they could be heard inside the room. Instead, DD showed Harry the simpler revolving image of Trelawney that rose up out of the basin. And while the visual could keep playing uninterrupted, the soundtrack had to be blanked out at spots, and so Harry experienced pauses where we saw ellipses. This is why DD sighed before he prodded the swirling memory with his wand and why he was lost in thought after it was finished: he knew he was withholding the information about Snape being the eavesdropper. He obviously wasn't sighing over being the receiver of the prophecy, as he came right out and told Harry he heard it: "Who heard it?" asked Harry, though he thought he knew the answer already. "I did," said Dumbledore. (OotP p. 840) Not: "I did," sighed Dumbledore. He only sighed after he created the modified memory and started it up for Harry to hear. - Janine From SWEETP_B307 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 25 00:27:46 2005 From: SWEETP_B307 at YAHOO.COM (PAM) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:27:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E42EB8.6040603@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134670 > > Alison: > > No mention of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." > > Where did Rachel find that? > Kathy writes: > Apparently, it is in the U.S. version. A few extra lines were > added. This is a mix up, I think in the book the statement in question is referring to Fudge's take on LV to the prime minister "Yes alive, said Fudge. 'That is - I don't know - is a man alive if he can't be killed?" "Pam" From Nrsedany2be at aol.com Mon Jul 25 01:15:29 2005 From: Nrsedany2be at aol.com (Nrsedany2be at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:15:29 EDT Subject: snape and wormtail Message-ID: <1c2.2d371544.30159731@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134671 If snape is high enough on the DE chain to be favored by voldie, how cna we be so sure that he didn't know that wormtail was the spy all along. In POA he knew about wormtail but chose to ignore it because he wanted his revenge on sirius that bad. Also I believe he started teaching hogwarts before james and lily died. So my guess is he wasn't remorseful that they were dead. Just that he didn't like the idea of voldie killing james, lily and a baby. I think Snape doesn't like people who can't defend themselves against other people. He bullies people yes, but most of them are of an age where they can try to defend themselves. I also think he bullies Hermione because she reminds him of himself when he was younger. I do have snape pegged as someone who would have gone through all of his books before he hit hogwarts. As other people said he probably went through his mom's textbooks when he was a kid. I am interested because he knew alot of curses, who else grew up in the muggle town where he lived. And I do think that the house on spinner's end was his parents. I wonder how old he was when his dad died. And snape may be predjudice against muggle borns because he might have been teased about having a muggle father when he was young, providing he grew up around other witches/wizards. Well that's alot to say. Danielle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lthyer at carolina.rr.com Mon Jul 25 00:54:19 2005 From: lthyer at carolina.rr.com (Lisa Thyer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:54:19 -0400 Subject: Snape AK Dumbledore - intimate situation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134672 Caro: > Before killing Dumbledore Snape looks at him for a moment. > To me this is a very intimate situation and left aside on > which side Snape is now this seems to be some kind of > "farewell"-situation which shows that there has been a > very intense bond between them I suspect a little legilimency going on in this scene. A private conversation. Snape and Dumbledore are both legilimens correct? "Lisa" From splewis at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 00:59:04 2005 From: splewis at gmail.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:59:04 -0000 Subject: HBP & COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134673 Sorry if this has been touched on previously (over 1700 new messages to read through!). I just re-read COS after 2 read-throughs of HPB and, boy, do I have a new appreciation of Book 2. I have to say that I severely underestimated COS which had always been last in my personal ranking of the series. I've had to do some re-jiggering! Anyone else had a similar experience? "Sharon" From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 01:31:31 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:31:31 -0000 Subject: HBP & COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134674 > "Sharon" > I just re-read COS after 2 read-throughs of HPB > and, boy, do I have a new appreciation of Book 2. oiboyz: Agreed! I haven't re-read COS yet, but HBP definitely makes me want to. I was always a little bothered by the fact that all that chaos at Hogwarts was caused by a simple book... "Dumbledore's been chased out by the mere memory of me!" gloats Voldemort. Now we know that Ginny didn't just have a memory in a diary; she had a *Horcrux*, a piece of Voldemort's soul! No wonder it caused such chaos. I admire JKR so much for having mapped out the series and planned it so well. Good stories are easier to start than finish, especially if they're long, but in Book 6 she seems to be pulling things together nicely and making full use of the characters and plots of previous books. She's a very *efficient* writer who doesn't waste details. Contrast Robert Jordan, who started his Wheel of Time series so brilliantly and then got so bogged down with too many people and places and plots that I actually got bored and stopped after Book 7. What's he on now, Book 10? I read that he originally planned a much shorter series, say only four books, but now I don't know if there's any end in sight. What a sad fate; it makes me appreciate JKR's planning and discipline all the more. From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 01:45:24 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:45:24 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134675 >>Lorrie: If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. I didn't think of the trophy - but it's a good theory, and I like it. I'm thinking that the last Horcrux might actually be Peter Pettigrew's silver hand. I know it's attached to a living being, but it's not actually living itself. And JKR did say in one of her chats that we would be learning more about Peter in the sixth book - yet he only appears in 2 pages. Perhaps what we're learning is the importance of Voldy's gift to him. (This would also explain why we don't see a lot of Peter in either OotP or HBP - if Peter really is "holding" one of Voldy's pieces of soul, then it would be logical for him not to place himself in danger. And Voldy also says he will reward Peter greatly for the service he has rendered in brining Voldy back to life - what a better way to reward him than to say, "Here, Pete, it's a bit of my soul, keep an eye on that for me, would you?") But then, I just want Peter to be Redeemed, so I'm sort of biased on him. *grin* --azriona From hambtty at triad.rr.com Mon Jul 25 01:48:42 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:48:42 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" wrote: > I just came across this old post that I had saved from last year. . . See > #14? I think that was the one foreshadowing the "something" in book 6. But > #23 might also have foreshadowed the Hr/R relationship. > > Barbara > > >>>From: mikefeemster [mailto:mikefeemster at y...] > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:41 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA List of Differences (spoilers) > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two things > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a list > of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what > you think. > > 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is executed.<<< BG Writes: I'll add the scene where Ron stands apart from Hermione and Harry. Ron may 1. unintentionally betray Harry or 2. sacrifice himself (he did it as a 11 year old in PS so it is well within his character. Also the scene where there is a mirror image of the DADA classroom at the end of the boggart scene. From crisarrieta at ig.com.br Mon Jul 25 01:51:04 2005 From: crisarrieta at ig.com.br (tina_00) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:51:04 -0000 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134677 Hello, I'm so used to being a lurker that I can't believe I'm writing this post... Ok, actually I can believe it, because I'd really really really like to see this topic being discussed but so far no one seemed to mind about it... Well, while trying to keep up with all the posts - and finding it incredibly difficult - I've noticed all the posts discussing if Snape has any importance to the plot from now on; the theories about his love for Lily (that somehow are no longer theories - some people seem absolutely certain of it) and so on, but only a few bothered to mention the fact that we were told Snape was saved by James. What exactly do we know about life's debt? If I'm not mistaken, we've only heard about it from Dumbledore, and he didn't explain much when talking about Wormtail. But Dumbledore was sure that having a Death Eater who owes his life to Harry won't exactly be a plus to Voldemort. So what if Snape owes his life to James Potter? There were discussions in this list (a long time ago; sorry but I couldn't find a suitable post to use as an example) about how this affects Snape in the sense that he has to protect Harry at the same time that he hates the boy. But now we have another piece of information - Snape, having a life's debt to James, was the one that caused his death. I am wondering how *that* affects Snape. I was even wondering if that isn't the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much - maybe he knew that it binds Snape to Harry? And another interesting thought crossed my mind - Voldemort has two followers in debt with Harry. Oh, I don't know how it affects the characters - I am a lurker for a reason, and the reason is that you guys come up with much better theories than I do -, but am I the only one who thinks that this may play a big part in book 7? Cristina BTW, I still can't believe that my favourite character was killed by my second favourite character, and although I'd love to think it was all part of a big plan, I'm trying not to get my hopes up. From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 02:00:06 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:00:06 -0000 Subject: Grindlewald and Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Claire" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger > wrote: > > I've long suspected the Tom Riddle went off seeking Grindlewald > when he > > left Hogwarts. It now seems that although Slughorn gave Riddle > general > > information about Horcruxes, he could not (would not?) give him > the > > specific spell needed to encase the ripped soul fragment in an > object. > > > > So where do you suppose Tom obtained this knowledge? Where better > to > > seek it than from the most famous Dark Wizard of the age, > Grindlewald? > > > > My first prediction (hope) for book seven, is that we will learn > more > > about Grindlewald's meetings with Tom Riddle. > > > > digger > > > > > Claire: > I agree with you, digger. When I first ready about Grindlewald in > SS/PS, I thought there was more to him than just a mention on the > back of a chocolate frog card. In JKR's interview with mugglenet > and The Leaky Cauldron, she says it was no coincidence that > Grindlewald died in 1945(although she leads one to believe it > paralleled Muggle world events at the time). She says she can't > answer whether Grindlewald is important in 7, which usually means he > will be, in JKR-speak. In my opinion, though, there's no way that Tom Riddle would ever have found Grindelwald. According to the timeline JKR has herself set up, by the time Tom Riddle killed his father and grandparents, the second world war was already finished or very nearly so. There's a couple of reasons for this. One, because we are told that the Riddles were killed "fifty years ago" from the start of GoF, which most of us believe to be 1994. That sets the date as 1944 - give or take a few years if we're willing to believe that "50 years" has been rounded one way or the other. As well, Frank Bryce is described as having had a "hard war". His war is definitely WW2 - he's only 77 years old when he is killed. The war must be over or nearly so for this reasoning to be accepted by the villagers. I'm actually inclined to say that it should have occured after the war was finished - and until HBP was released, that's the theory I was going with. Frank bears no external scars or obvious reasons why he would have been demobbed earlier than 1945 or 46 - and most soldiers were not demobbed immediately upon the conclusion of the war. Following that line of thought, Tom was described as being around sixteen years old in the memory that Harry and DD observed in the Pensieve. That means that the memory occured either between his fifth and sixth years, or between his sixth and seventh. At the very earliest, Tom would not have left school until June of 1945. I think it more likely that he would have started his sixth year of Hogwarts following the death of his father - therefore, he didn't leave until June of 1946. According to the Chocolate Frog cards, Grindelwald was defeated in 1945. JKR has said that the Grindelwald War and WW2 mirrored each other - I suspect that Grindelwald fell around the same time that Hitler committed suicide, which was in May. Therefore, Grindelwald would have fallen before Tom ever left Hogwarts. Now, I will grant you two things: Tom may have found Grindelwald before he left Hogwarts, during his summers; and also that as we only know that Grindelwald had fallen and not actually been killed, that Tom may have located him after his defeat. But I am very suspicious of Tom actually locating Grindelwald at either time. In the first case, there's a WAR going on. How is a seventeen year old kid (even of Tom's abilities) going to find the most wanted man in the Wizarding world? And even if Grindelwald had been defeated before Tom went looking for him - wouldn't he be under lock and key, and therefore much more difficult for Tom to reach? --azriona From adairfletch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 23:24:44 2005 From: adairfletch at yahoo.com (adairfletch) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:24:44 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050724221217.55200.qmail@web32701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134679 Lynn wrote (in response to Shannon): > So you think Molly, Ginny and Hermione have a greater duty > to be nice than Fleur? It's okay for Fleur to be openly > rude and disrespectful but the others can't express their > feelings in private? I think what Shannon meant was that Ginny, Hermione, and Molly were doing exactly what they dislike Fleur for doing. Yes, Fleur can be rude and disrespectful, but that is not an excuse for others to do it in return, be it in private or not, and personally, I'd rather someone insult me to my face instead of behind my back. If the three dislike her haughty arrogance so much, than they should be doing their best to be above such behavior. Lynn wrote: > Right from the time we first meet Fleur in GOF, she is > haughty, arrogant, rude, vain and not only acts superior but > does it by putting other people or things down. > > She keeps putting down Tonks even though Mrs. Weasley > has made it clear that Tonks is a friend of the family. It > makes no difference whether or not she thought Mrs. Weasley > was trying to push Tonks on Bill, it is rude to go into > someone's home and criticize their friends. And, in doing so, > points out that beauty is apparently everything since the fact > that Tonks isn't taking care of herself is such a mistake, all > this while checking herself out in a spoon. Um, the bit about Tonks... what? I don't think anyone has meant to imply that we see someone letting themself go due to depression as wrong. I think all anyone was implying is that it is wrong for a parent to force someone else on their child just because they don't like who their child has chosen, not when that chosen person makes said child happy. And it's not like Fleur is straight out of "Fatal Attraction," let's please put some perspective on this: Molly has no real complaint against Fleur, other than Fleur being, as you describe, rude, disrepectful, and insulting. If Bill can look past it, then his family should too, for the simple reason of not wanting to alienate Bill or his future children. If they can't look past it, then they need to learn to live with it, for Bill's sake. And it would be different if Fleur were really as awful as you make her out to be, then I might be in your camp, but she's really not. A lot of Fleur's arrogance I have always viewed as a kind of self-protection device. The second the family starts to accept her, I think Fleur will calm down. She may not ever be pleasant to the other girls, but I think she'll be at least tolerable. And Ginny isn't the best example to use, because I have a feeling Ginny is just as rude to Fleur as Fleur is to her, when she can get away with it; Ginny isn't one to sit back and take an insult. Neither is Hermione the best example, really, because I think her dislike of Fleur stems more from the way Ron acts around her. And Fleur is probably overly rude to Tonks, because Molly is making Tonks into a threat against her relationship with Bill. Fleur is tearing down possible competition, and though it isn't the right thing for her to do, again, I think she does it out of insecurity. Others judge her for being superficial, for only being a pretty face, but no one ever stops to think that Fleur might do the same thing to herself. She's secure in her looks, because in other areas she probably doubts herself, just like we all do. My point is that Fleur might always be annoying, but she isn't a horrible person. Let's leave that category to the Wormtails, Bellatrixes, and Voldemorts of the world. Lynn wrote: > And, has she even asked if she could help? Apparently > not, otherwise she would have been helping with the dinner, not > saying how much better Beauxbaton does things than Hogwarts. > I wouldn't dream of going to someone's house and acting as Fleur > did here. Well, neither would I, but I doubt Molly would even accept Fleur's help, and that's what myself and other posters mean when we way Molly's behavior is just as rude. And yes, the tray episode was disrepectful of Fleur, but if you'll go back and read it, she just wanted to say hello to Harry, whom Molly would not let her go see. Lynn wrote: > Let's not forget Fleur whips Molly across the face with her hair. > Why? Apparently because Fleur feels the first thing Harry should > have been told upon entering the house was that Fleur and Bill > were getting married. Can we say self-centered and self- > absorbed? She knew Harry had arrived in the middle of the night > and that he had just woken up. Apparently, even though there is > a war going on, she feels there's nothing more important than her. Or maybe she feels no one told Harry, because they don't want it broadcasted that Bill is marrying Fleur. Again: self-absorbed vs. insecurity. If Molly and the other girls have been subverting Fleur with other people, why would she not rush in to talk to Harry about the marriage first, especially since she likes Harry? Lynn wrote: > We learn why Molly has some concerns about the relationship > and, these are genuine concerns. Other than good looks and > intelligence (and the way Fleur is acting, I'd question the > intelligence part myself), what do they have in common? Bill > is hardworking, Fleur is only working part-time and doesn't > appear to be showing any sign of helping in the house; Bill > is down-to-earth, Fleur is full of herself . I think > Molly has genuine doubts about Fleur and, from what Fleur has > shown in Molly's presence, they are reasonable. Molly should > take Bill's word that Fleur makes him happy and he wants to > spend the rest of his life with her. But, Molly may also be > wondering if it is the Veela part of Fleur that is influencing > Bill. Again, that's reasonable ? look how Ron's affected. Ok, now we're just making biased judgments. How do we know if Fleur is hard-working or not? We don't, we don't know enough about her to make that kind of judgement. But she was in the Triwizard Tournament, so I wouldn't call her lazy. Is Fleur really full of herself, or just insecure? Again, we don't know. And I understand the Veela doubt, but people seem to get use to being around her, except for maybe Ron. And I don't think even Ron would propose to her just because of an infatuation, I'm sure Bill knows her better than we do. These kind of arguments irritate me, because they're the same kind of thing people have been using to argue against Harry/Ginny and Remus/Tonks. We don't know enough to say whether or not these people are good for each other, and even if we did, who are we to say what makes someone happy? I, too, wish JKR had shown more between the couples, then maybe we'd see more of what makes them work, but if the characters are happy, and their significant others are not secretly axe murderers, then I'm not going to complain. If Cho truly did make Harry happy, I wouldn't complain, even though I don't really like her, simply because Harry would be happy. If Fleur makes Bill happy, then as far as I'm concerned, on with the marriage, and Molly just needs to deal with it. Lynn wrote: > Let's not forget Christmas. Apparently no one likes listening > to Celestina, Arthur even apologizes to Harry about it, but > everyone else has enough respect to put up with it, except Fleur > of course. Even worse, she makes fun of it after it becomes > apparent that there is sentiment involved. If Fleur was truly a > woman in love, wouldn't she have understood that type of > sentiment? I would. Not if it's just bad music. And personally, I can't stand the pop love ballads that consistently fill the airwaves. Give me a Clash song to listen to any day over that garbage. Lynn wrote: > I blame Bill for not stepping in and stopping Fleur from showing > such utter disrespect to his family and friends. This is not > someone I'd want for a daughter-in-law. Heck, this isn't someone > I'd want for a houseguest for the weekend. I would have serious > doubts if this person could truly make someone happy. Whether > this person is capable of thinking of someone other than > themselves. Well, like I said before, if she makes Bill happy, then we have no right to complain. And if my nonexistent son became engaged to someone like her, or if one of my brothers did, I'd deal with it, for the reasons I mentioned above. Fleur doesn't have to make Molly happy, she's supposed to be making Bill happy. Lynn wrote: > It's no wonder Molly feels Fleur will probably leave. > Yes, Fleur gets upset about it. But Fleur should realize that > she had a hand in giving that impression. But then, she > continues to show she is still full of herself by saying she's > good looking enough for both. Hello? That's not humor, that's > what she honestly believes. It is at the bedside that Fleur > finally lets Molly know that she truly loves Bill. From Molly's > reaction, that's all she's needed to know. I think Molly can put > up with Fleur's obnoxiousness and self-centeredness as long as > she knows that Fleur truly loves Bill. Again, how do you know it's not humor? How do you know she truly believes in the superficial? Fleur was shocked, and you don't know how you would react in that situation, unless you've experienced something similar yourself. The fact of the matter is, Molly does accept Fleur at the end, because Fleur loves Bill just as much disfigured as when he was whole. If Molly can accept it, then so should we. Lynn wrote: > Now, as much as she irritates me and I find her obnoxious, I > like Fleur because she showed a depth of feeling for her sister > and I believe she can have that for someone else. But then, we > have been privy to this while Molly has not. However, Fleur is > old enough to know what respect is and should be showing Molly > and Arthur that respect simply because they are Bill's parents. Finally, a point we can agree on. I think all the girls in the situation just need to grow up a little bit, and stop being so utterly petty. Can we please start worrying about DD's death and Voldemort now? Adair From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:05:07 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:05:07 -0000 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tina_00" wrote: > > What exactly do we know about life's debt? If I'm not mistaken, > we've only heard about it from Dumbledore, and he didn't explain > much when talking about Wormtail. But Dumbledore was sure that > having a Death Eater who owes his life to Harry won't exactly be a > plus to Voldemort. Hi, last year we had quite a discussion about life debts, they start in message # 117537 What's funny is that JKR never mentions "life Debt", it's used only by us fans. Juli From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 02:06:12 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:06:12 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie (adding a bit of COS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Barbara D. Poland-Waters" bear at c...> wrote: > > I just came across this old post that I had saved from last > year. . . See > > #14? I think that was the one foreshadowing the "something" in > book 6. But > > #23 might also have foreshadowed the Hr/R relationship. > > > > Barbara > > > > >>>From: mikefeemster [mailto:mikefeemster at y...] > > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:41 PM > > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA List of Differences (spoilers) > > > > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two > things > > that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided to make a > list > > of things that I noticed were different from the book. I don't > > think I got everything but I did get quite a bit. Let me know what > > you think. > > > > 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Qudditch. > > > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is > executed.<<< > > BG Writes: > > I'll add the scene where Ron stands apart from Hermione and Harry. > Ron may 1. unintentionally betray Harry or 2. sacrifice himself (he > did it as a 11 year old in PS so it is well within his character. > > Also the scene where there is a mirror image of the DADA classroom > at the end of the boggart scene. Actually, what struck me when reading HBP wasn't scenes from PoA but from CoS - I kept thinking of the deleted scene from Borgin & Burkes where Harry hides in the cabinet and the Malfoys come in. Poor boy - if he'd taken a step back, or closed the door all the way, he might have ended up at Hogwarts early! --azriona From hambtty at triad.rr.com Mon Jul 25 02:08:03 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:08:03 -0000 Subject: 7 Enchantments = themes for Books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134682 BG writes: The sixth book continues the themes from the enchantments protecting the PS in the first book. Each charm (in order) that guarded the Stone has so far been related to the plot in each book. 1. The 3 headed dog The trio meet and become loyal friends 2. Plant: the devils snare mandrake plants save those who were petrified by the basilisk 3. Keys Harry & Hermione free Sirius 4. Chess Game Tri-Wizard Tournament 5. Unconscious Troll - Quirrel/Mort defeated the troll Professor Umbridge had no conscious and the Centaurs defeated her for the kids (This was not my idea but sorry, I forgot who suggested this one. I posted this before Book 6 and this one stumped me but someone posted this and I thought it made perfect sense.) 6. Potions Snape's potion for DD & Snape's potion book (HBP) 7. THE MIRROR That leaves only a mirror to be an important part of Book 7. The Mirror of Erised? Sirus' mirror? Yet unknown mirror? All of the above? I continue to be amazed with JKR's detailed planning for the series. A great lesson to teach children to plan and graph before writing. From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 00:23:34 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:23:34 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134683 > Barb, quoting Mike Feemster: > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is > executed.<<< Am I the only one who wasnt suprised at all about the Ron and Hermione relationship? This has been so obivous since book 4 and even in the movies since the 2nd one -- CoS -- when Hermione hugs Harry at the end of the movie and her and Ron awkardly shake hands. I think that JK did a good here -- she grew R and Her together -- and I can see perfectly why they would get together. The only relationship I felt weird on was Harry and Ginny and not because I can't see them together but it did seem rushed. I do think Ginny has been developing in the books since CoS... from the beginning you can see she's outgoing in SS when she's the first Weasley Harry really hears speak. It seems like it should be a match -- Harry loves the Weasleys -- why wouldn't he fall in love with a female Weasley.. it just seemed odd that suddenly Ginny is the hot girl at school -- and just so cool. And then Harry gets her scent when he smells the love potion. It was like->huh? Since when does Harry like Ginny... but I guess it works enough for the most part. Tamuril From sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net Mon Jul 25 01:16:31 2005 From: sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net (sonjaartemisia) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:16:31 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134684 Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote: > I just came across this old post that I had saved from last > year. . . See #14? I think that was the one foreshadowing > the "something" in book 6. But #23 might also have > foreshadowed the Hr/R relationship. > >>>From: mikefeemster [mailto:mikefeemster at y...] > Given what JKR has said about the movie, specifically the two > things that foreshadowed something in book 6 or 7, I decided > to make a list of things that I noticed were different from > the book. > > 14) Harry is number seven when he is playing Quidditch. > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is > executed.<<< I haven't seen this yet and wanted to add it to the list of POA movie forshadowing: Harry falls off his broom and awakes in the Hogwarts hospital wing. In the movie Ron says "He looks a bit peaky." Fred or George answers him and says "Yeah, Ron, let's throw you off the astromony tower and see what you look like." Rather spooky, after reading HBP, and would definitely give me chills if I were JKR! Sonja From lthyer at carolina.rr.com Mon Jul 25 01:48:13 2005 From: lthyer at carolina.rr.com (Lisa Thyer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:48:13 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134685 Pam: > This is a mix up, I think in the book the statement in question > is referring to Fudge's take on LV to the prime minister "Yes > alive, said Fudge. 'That is - I don't know - is a man alive if > he can't be killed?" No mix up Pam. This line appears at the bottom of page 591 US edition and continues on page 592 Dumbledore to Malfoy: "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the death eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all." "Lisa" From andie1 at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 02:19:41 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:19:41 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tamuril elensar" > > Am I the only one who wasnt suprised at all about the Ron and > Hermione relationship? I think that many of us really felt that relationship coming. I don't really think they have opened up completely yet, but it is something I look forward to in #7. I really never understood those who did the H/Hr ship... although we all see things differently! I just always thought it was quite obvious that R/Hr would happen. " The only > relationship I felt weird on was Harry and Ginny and not because I > can't see them together but it did seem rushed." I didn't see it like that at all! I was so excited to see Harry coming around in HBP. Ginny, as we all know, has had a thing for Harry since the very beginning. I was convinced that Ginny was the right one for Harry since Christmas during OoP. She was the only one who was able to get him out of his "funk". He and Ginny are a lot alike, and I do believe that they belong together. It felt totally natural (and not at all rushed) to me. grindie :) *who would love to see Harry come back for Ginny in the end :) * From kjones at telus.net Mon Jul 25 02:45:30 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:45:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why did Snape take the UV in the first place? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E4524A.9000806@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134687 Bob Alberti wrote: snip > I don't believe that the idea of the Unbreakable Vow was > pre-discussed, nor was DD's death. In the midst of war, many things > have to be improvised either to stay alive or to seek advantage. Kathy writes: I had the feeling that Snape and Dumbledore had already discussed the fact that he was dying. Dumbledore is too cagey and Snape is too Slytherin to evade or ignore the possibility that Dumbledore could be killed hunting horcruxes. I don't think Narcissa arrived without prior notice. I had the feeling that Snape led her into the idea very skillfully by suggesting that he might be able to help. It would have been a good move, if Draco had cooperated, to make sure that he was always aware of what Draco was doing. I think Snape made the decision at the time and told Dumbledore what he had done later. Dumbledore told him that he must then go through with it to protect his position with Voldemort. KJ > Chris (flowerchild4) wrote: > >>> As you stated, the Fidelius Charm is now defunct. The Order is > going to need another secret keeper ASAP! Sirius' father made the > house unplottable (OOtP p115 AmEd.) so it is still protected by > that. However, Snape knows where it is and I'm sure any member of > the extended Black family would also know. So the Order really > needs to find a new secret keeper!<< Chris Kathy writes: Dumbledore moved everybody out of the house after Sirius died. There was still nothing in HBP to show that anyone had gone back to it during the year, that I can recall anyway. It could be that they have set up shop somewhere else, or Dumbledore will leave them a place in his will. At that time they will have to have a new SK. In the meantime, Snape will be able to send the DE to Grimmauld Place and find it unoccupied. KJ > Samantha: >> But what occured to me is, if you no longer have the memory, how could >> you remember to look for it later? Because, you wouldn't know what you >> were looking for when you needed it later, would you? Samantha Kathy writes: It seems that there are two things mentioned that a pensieve deals with, memories and feelings. You could leave the memories and remove the feelings. In that way you would have all the memories available but be able to hide how you felt about it. You could just remove parts of the memories if you were careful how you did it, as was mentioned elsewhere. What is apparently very difficult to do, is change memories, or plant false ones. In Snape's case, I believe that the memories were left intact and the feelings of remorse removed. Voldemort, having no feelings of remorse himself would not even notice a lack. Doing this would, of course, tend to leave Snape a rather nasty piece of work if he doesn't have a single sorry thought left in his head. Snape? Nasty? KJ Craig > Couldn't the death of Moaning Myrtel have created a Horcrux in one of the > awards (whether the service award or the magical merit award)? It seems > that a death in Hogwarts would have been necessary to create a Horcrux in > Hogwarts. The Horcrux in the diary could have been made after Tom left > school because it was in Malfoy's possession and not locked in the trophy > room of the school. The diary could have been easily created off campus, > but an item in the trophy room *must* have been made within the school as > these items are locked within the trophy room. > Craig Kathy writes: I don't think MM was a significant enough person for Voldemort to kill for horcrux making. Also a murder has to be done coldly and deliberately for a soul split to occur. MM was also killed by the basilisk and might not qualify as a Voldemort murder either. I also think that the horcrux can be made at any time after the murder. It might take him some time to get his object for his horcrux, but his soul piece will remain within him until it is encased. In thinking about that award, it brings to mind the fact that we still do not know who Florence was kissing or who Bertha Jorkins followed. We do know that Dumbledore was studying that memory in OotP. Perhaps "Florence" smuggled the trophy out to Voldemort. KJ Shumar1999 > I wish we had more information about horcruxes, like how you get your > piece of your soul into the object. And speaking of "object", it is my > feeling that horcruxes have to be OBJECTS and not living beings. Shumar Kathy writes: I think that ordinarily only objects would be used as horcruxes. In this case, I think that Dumbledore knows better as well, he is just suggesting Nagini to get Harry thinking along the lines of a possible living horcrux. He still can't come right out and tell Harry much in case Voldemort listens in. I don't think that Voldemort is intending to make his final horcrux with anything else except Harry's death. I think also that Snape was forced to kill Dumbledore to prevent his death from being used as a horcrux death. If Dumbledore's death was caused by the potion, it would have been considered a significant killing by Voldemort. Dumbledore does not want any more Voldemort pieces on the loose. KJ From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 02:52:34 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:52:34 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134688 Sylvia wrote: "Sorry, but I find her behaviour in snatching the bowl from Molly, with the comment "And I will do that" insensitive and arrogant" Eggplant: So you're saying you could not find it in your heart to forgive a woman who could give your extraordinarily brave but hideously disfigured son years of happiness. Are you really sure you want to say that? Bookworm: I can understand Fleur's annoyance with Molly, but in many ways she brought it on herself. From the first time we saw Fleur she was obnoxious, self-centered, and disrespectful toward Molly. I wasn't very surprised that Molly had a low impression of Fleur and doubted her devotion to Bill. - - - (All quotes from Scholastic edition) Ch5, p92: "Fleur turned back to Harry, swinging her silvery sheet of hair so that it whipped Mrs. Weasley across the face." Ch16, p330: "Fleur, who seemed to find Celestina very dull, was talking so loudly in the corner ." Ch16, p333: "'Thank goodness, what an 'orible- '" (referring to Celestina's singing. --- Not exactly the way to endear yourself to your beloved's mother is it now? Hitting her across the face, talking during a special radio program, and later mocking her favorite singer. I could forgive a woman who would give my son years of happiness, but not one I thought would drop him when someone `better'came along. But, there was a lot more at play in the hospital scene than just the issue with the ointment. Other than the end of the 2nd task in GoF, this was the first time we saw Fleur in any role other than Shallow!Fleur. That was what Molly was recognizing, that there is much more to Fleur than her Veela blood. Ravenclaw Bookworm From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:52:51 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:52:51 -0000 Subject: Fake AK Theory In-Reply-To: <42E34750.4070408@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134689 > Kathy writes: > I would love the fake AK spell except for one thing. How would a > person satisfy the Unbreakable Vow. I think JKR deliberately wrote that > Vow into the book to make it absolutely clear that, for whatever reason, > Snape really did kill Dumbledore. zgirnius: I would assume the task assigned to Draco was to *kill* Dumbledore, not *specifically* to AK him. (Else why would Draco have tried poison?) Whatever spell(s) Snape cast on the tower resulted in Dumbledore falling to his death (if we go with the fake/unsuccessful AK theory, which I do.) This ought to be good enough for the UV. BTW, anyone notice how Harry is free to move just as the DE's leave, a few seconds *after* the AK? Harry says he was just shocked-but it would take a few seconds for DD to fall to the ground if Snape's spell did not kill him... From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:53:26 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:53:26 -0000 Subject: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I agree that there's something very strange about this AK. Not only is > Dumbledore thrown into the air, but his eyes, in marked contrast to > the Riddles' and Cedric's (in GoF), are *closed* and he looks (except > for the odd angle of his limbs) "as if he might have been sleeping" > (HBP Am. ed. 608)His eyes would not have been closed if he'd been > killed by an AK, nor would he have worn a peaceful expression. He must > have had time to close his eyes, to compose his thoughts and his > expression, before he hit the ground and was killed by the fall. It's > even possible that he died in midair, weakened by age and injury and > exhaustion and poison but still a great wizard whose last act was to > choose the moment of his death (which of course was inevitable and > imminent in any case). > > As for the spell, we know that Snape is an expert at nonverbal spells > (he's been teaching them to his students all year) and we see him > using them to deflect Harry's curses and hexes later in the chapter, > so I rather like Valky's theory that he's thinking of some other spell > as he casts the AK. (I don't think Occlumency would have been > necessary, only that the spell be "nvbl.") She suggests a hover charm, > but what about Impedimenta instead? It might block the force of the AK > or even hinder it if he thought it before he spoke, and it might > explain why Dumbledore was blasted into the air, as we've noted is not > normal for a successful AK. I've looked at some other instances of the use of Impedimenta, and it does seem to fit. For example, in OTP, Chapter 35. The members of DA are in the Department of Mysteries: "Collo--" began Hermione, but before she could complete the spell the door had burst open again and the two Death Eaters had come hurtling inside. With a cry of triumph, both yelled, "IMPEDIMENTA!" Harry, Hermione, and Neville were all knocked backward off their feet. Neville was thrown over the desk and disappeared from view, Hermione smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books; the back of Harry's head slammed into the stone wall behind him, tiny lights burst in front of his eyes, and for a moment he was too dizzy and bewildered to react. Impedimenta appears to knock the recipient backwards. If any damage is done, it happens when the recipient collides with something during that process. The curse is short-lived, and no countercurse is apparently needed afterward. There is another element of Snape's AK curse which doesn't ring true. We see the green light, but we don't hear the rushing sound. When Voldemort killed Frank Bryce, it says, "There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." In the account of Snape killing DD we only see a green light, and there is no mention of a rushing sound. On one hand, the question of whether Snape used an AK or a silent Impedimenta is irrelevant. The effect of the AK vs. the Impedimenta was the same--Dumbledore was murdered. On the other hand, we can hope that the use of a silent Impedimenta rather than a successful unforgivable curse is technically important in the Potterverse. Merrylinks From lfreeman at mbc.edu Mon Jul 25 02:54:37 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:54:37 -0400 Subject: Another Horcrux thought and RAB speculation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134691 Of all that we've heard of Tom Riddle's schooldays and the honors he earned then, I don't recall that we've ever been told anything about whether he played Quidditch. What if the final Horcrux turned out to be the very thing Harry's been "seeking" since the first book: the Hogwarts Golden Snitch? I also think DD's offer to fake Draco and Narcissa Malfoy's deaths was a big hint that someone we believe dead is actually in hiding... maybe disguised as Trevor the Toad? Regalus Black is an obvious suspect (as #1 RAB candidate), but Mad-Eye told Harry of a few other Order members who had died whose bodies were never found. As far as other RAB candidates go, I'm thinking of people we know with A.B. names, on the assumption that they could have a previously unrevealed R first name. Amelia Bones, Andromeda Tonks (nee Black...). One of the orphans Riddle terrorized also had an AB name. I thought Amelia was a great candidate at first. Fudge told us that he *thought* she was killed by Voldy (and what does he know, we've already seen how the Ministry jumps to conclusion when investigating crimes...); Snape comfirmed that the DE's killed Emmeline Vance, but never mentioned Bones. DD said she was a "great witch"; Fudge said she died in a "locked room" and put up a great fight... what if she was destroying the Horcrux instead? But then they said during Harry's hearing that her name was Amelia Susan Bones... drat. Unless R was a title or she had an accomplice (DD did say it would take more than one to uncover the necklace.) Final thought: what became of DD's wand? Hagrid and Slug's song during Aragog's funeral implied that wands are sometimes broken and buried with the wizard, but there is obviously some precident for passing them on (Neville inheriting his dad's) With Mr. O gone, I doubt people will be discarding his products. I hope they let Hagrid have DD's! Or maybe Harry will need it, since sister wands have strange effects when used against each other. From cijimcb at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:45:11 2005 From: cijimcb at yahoo.com (Ciji) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:45:11 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134692 Craig: > Couldn't the death of Moaning Myrtel have created a Horcrux in one of the > awards (whether the service award or the magical merit award)? It seems > that a death in Hogwarts would have been necessary to create a Horcrux in > Hogwarts. Ciji: It seems to me that the Horcrux/diary was made with Moaning Myrtles death. Since the diary details events leading up to Myrtle's death, it seems likely that it was created by her death and the award for special services given to Tom for 'catching' Hagrid. what really noodles my brain is how diary/horcrux/Tom Riddle knows about Harry Potter, especially since Harry wasn't even born when the horcrux was created (CoS). How can a piece of your soul preserved in the past be knowledgeable of the future? if Voldemort isn't in communication with a horcrux (active or inactive) and doesn't know when a horcrux is destroyed, then how does a horcrux/soul imprint know about things that transpire after it's creation? Ciji. From cijimcb at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:34:51 2005 From: cijimcb at yahoo.com (Ciji) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:34:51 -0000 Subject: Prophecy misinterpretation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134693 What I want to know is... how could Snape have heard the beginning of the prophecy and not the end? Let's review: he was listening at the door, got caught, then presented to Dumbledore as a snooper. If he got caught mid-way thru Trelawney's spiel, how did he miss the second half? If there was an interruption (as Trelawney put it) in the interview, did Trelawney continue to give the prophecy after Snape left? Of course not, because she saw Snape was there. So then wouldn't Snape hear the whole thing if he was listening and caught right by the door then immediately brought into the room? It seems as if it he should have heard the latter half, then get caught. -ceej From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 03:12:20 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725031220.425.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134694 > > Ciji: > It seems to me that the Horcrux/diary was made with > Moaning Myrtles > death. Since the diary details events leading up to > Myrtle's death, > it seems likely that it was created by her death and > the award for > special services given to Tom for 'catching' Hagrid. Juli: But Tom Riddle did NOT kill Myrtle, she was killed by the basilisk. > what really noodles my brain is how > diary/horcrux/Tom Riddle knows > about Harry Potter, especially since Harry wasn't > even born when the > horcrux was created (CoS). How can a piece of your > soul preserved in > the past be knowledgeable of the future? if > Voldemort isn't in > communication with a horcrux (active or inactive) > and doesn't know > when a horcrux is destroyed, then how does a > horcrux/soul imprint know > about things that transpire after it's creation? Juli: it was Ginny, She had a gigantic crush on Harry, so obviously she wrote about him in the diary, *her* diary. She wrote everything about Harry, how he survived, how he became a Quidditch player, what he did while he was at the Burrow... Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 03:13:11 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:13:11 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie (adding a bit of COS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > > Actually, what struck me when reading HBP wasn't scenes from PoA but > from CoS - I kept thinking of the deleted scene from Borgin & Burkes > where Harry hides in the cabinet and the Malfoys come in. Poor boy - > if he'd taken a step back, or closed the door all the way, he might > have ended up at Hogwarts early! > Tonks: Forgive me elves, I am over 3, but I can't let this go, I'll be brief. The scene in COS, was it deleted in the movie? I saw it on the TV movie a few weeks ago and Harry was not in a cabinet. I remembered this clearly. He was in an Egyptian Sarcophagus. A coffin, folks, an Eqyptian coffin. And I grabbed my book at the time to see and sure enough it was not the same. The book just says a cabinet and I suspected it to be a wardrobe sort of thing, but that is not what I saw in the movie!!! And just now when I went to look up how to spell the word the online dictionary says that it is a *stone* coffin. (Like DD's). Confusing. Tonks_op From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 03:20:38 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725032038.35824.qmail@web54703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134696 Marianne wrote: I'm not sure I buy this. Sirius shouted "Get out!" at one point to Kreacher, who promptly left the house entirely and hightailed it to the Malfoys. He was not accompanying Sirius anywhere. If Kreacher can interpret a non-specific order in such a way as to leave the house to which he is bound, I still don't see why the house's master can't tell the house-elf to go to a specific other location for some duration of time. My reply: This goes along with Kreacher at the Malfoys and only because I am curious what everyone thought. In OOP Kreacher is the one that is credited for devouring the information that lead to the capture of Sirius and Molly called Sirius by his name on the train platform so it's no wonder how that got out! But now Snape is taking the credit? Do we think he really gave the information or not? ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 25 03:19:10 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:19:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy misinterpretation? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134697 In a message dated 7/24/2005 11:07:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cijimcb at yahoo.com writes: What I want to know is... how could Snape have heard the beginning of the prophecy and not the end? Let's review: he was listening at the door, got caught, then presented to Dumbledore as a snooper. If he got caught mid-way thru Trelawney's spiel, how did he miss the second half? If there was an interruption (as Trelawney put it) in the interview, did Trelawney continue to give the prophecy after Snape left? Of course not, because she saw Snape was there. So then wouldn't Snape hear the whole thing if he was listening and caught right by the door then immediately brought into the room? It seems as if it he should have heard the latter half, then get caught. --------------------- Sherrie here: Doesn't Dumbledore tell Harry that the only two living persons who KNOW the whole prophecy are the two of them? Suppose Snape DID overhear the entire thing - but Dumbledore Obliviated the last part? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kjones at telus.net Mon Jul 25 03:23:34 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:23:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fake AK Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E45B36.1090204@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134698 zgirnius wrote: > > > Kathy writes: > > I would love the fake AK spell except for one thing. How would a > > person satisfy the Unbreakable Vow. I think JKR deliberately wrote > that > > Vow into the book to make it absolutely clear that, for whatever > reason, > > Snape really did kill Dumbledore. > > zgirnius: > I would assume the task assigned to Draco was to *kill* Dumbledore, not > *specifically* to AK him. (Else why would Draco have tried poison?) > Whatever spell(s) Snape cast on the tower resulted in Dumbledore > falling to his death (if we go with the fake/unsuccessful AK theory, > which I do.) This ought to be good enough for the UV. > > BTW, anyone notice how Harry is free to move just as the DE's leave, a > few seconds *after* the AK? Harry says he was just shocked-but it would > take a few seconds for DD to fall to the ground if Snape's spell did > not kill him... zgirnius Kathy writes: I may be missing something here, forgive me, but why would it be preferable for Snape to hit Dumbledore, a 150 year old man in the chest with a different curse. Surely an AK would be a faster, more merciful kill than blasting him into the air and dropping him untold numbers of feet. As far as soul splitting, I don't think it will qualify as a cold blooded murder regardless of means because of mitigating factors. Snape's wand will show an AK being cast whether or not a killing resulted from it so it serves no purpose to kill him some other way. It would also show if anything else had been cast whether verbal or non-verbal. As long as Snape killed him with something, it should satisfy the Vow. Depending on how the Vow works, according to Ron,if Snape had tried to fake the death, I believe the Vow would have killed him. Do you think that Dumbledore asked Snape via Legilimency to ensure that they did not take his body with them? Alternatively, by Snape boosting his body off the tower, they would not be able to determine whether Dumbledore died from a fake AK, a blasting curse of some kind, or after he floated safely to the ground from the tower. Why didn't JKR just have Snape shoot him four times like they do on TV and put us all out of our misery? KJ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 25 03:36:06 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:36:06 -0000 Subject: FILK: Plague of Inferius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134699 Plague of Inferius (HPB, Chap. 3) To the tune of the Age of Aquarius, from Hair Dedicated to CV THE SCENE: Four Privet Drive. HARRY reviews a leaflet from the Ministry of Magic HARRY (reading): "When the Dark Mark's seen above your house As Voldemort is waging war You better plan to beat it And shun his undead corps "This is a warning `bout a plague of Inferius Plague of Inferius! Inferius! "Just a tip of the sombrero: Things could get so George Romero It's an evil scheme of Tommy's To o'errun us all with zombies Don't go out unless you go to Or you'll encounter Nosferatu Inferius! Inferius! "When the Dark Mark's seen above your house As Voldemort is waging war You better plan to beat it And shun his undead corps "This is a warning `bout a plague of Inferius Inferius! Inferius! " - CMC (wondering if George Romero will direct Book Six) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (now being continuously updated with HBP filking!) From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 03:43:59 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725034359.79498.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134700 Robyn wrote: This is what makes JK so brilliant. She had most of her readership convinced Snape was innocent all because DD trusted him... she's amazing imo -- just amazing. She created a character in DD that everyone trusted without a doubt -- when Harry spoke ill of Snape not only were Ron, Lupin, etc., saying "Oh Harry, DD trusts him" but so were the readers. And the end of book 6 is the ulimate shock because no one saw that coming. What a plot twist. Don't think Snape will be redeemed, folks. And while over the last two years I had hoped Sirius would come back somehow, I'm now convinced he isn't and DD definitely isn't. Someone posted something about why DD had to die and I agree 100% and Harry realizes it himself at the end of the book. There is no one left to protect him -- he won't even begin to get Prof McGonagall involved because he knows that this is it -- this is his fight now. I cried so hard when DD died (on the NYC train no less) but this passage where Harry comes to terms with DD dying and understanding why he had to die... Well that made me feel closure.. It makes sense and it had to happen. robyn My reply: And you probably don't think Draco will be redeemed and is probably getting killed right now, don't you? Here is thing I understand the logic and I hate Snape I do...but the thing is I can't handle him being evil it's just not fair! It's the whole idea that if someone looks evil than they are evil. If someone acts evil they are evil. And I can't handle a horrific traitor like Pettigrew being the rat to be reformed if that is where she is going then I am returning my book and I'm not even joking about this. I have expected more out Jo than this...I have expected surprises not black and white. ~Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:17:22 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:17:22 -0000 Subject: Lily, Dumbledore, and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134701 >Saraquel wrote: > I took it to mean that no-one has sacrificed >themselves for someone > who is the oject of a Horcrux attempt. Valky wrote: >I find it hard to understand how we might extrapolate intentional >Horcrux Harry from "I am sure that he was intending to make his final >Horcrux with your death......" Saraquel again: I agree Valky, it's my fault, I didn't express myself clearly enough, what I actually meant, and I can see that it's not at all clear from how I phrased it, is what you describe later in your post. >Two spells at once appear to be possible. So could Voldemort have >tried to do double magic at Godrics Hollow? >He points an Avada Kedavra at Baby Harry, a finisher. And at Lily he >points the little Horcrux experiment he had in mind.. >equal-connected-horcrux. I don't think Harry was supposed to be the Horcrux either. He was the object, in the sense that his murder was going to facilitate the making of a Horcrux. Perhaps if I'd said, object IN a Horcrux attempt it might ? oh .. you get the gist. I've thought a little on the process of making Horcruxes, and I wondered if the murder and the making of the Horcrux, had to be done simultaeneously. I thought that it did, because I assumed that splitting the soul releases huge amounts of power which would be needed to actually remove the soul part from the Horcrux makers body. Somehow, making one after the murder event doesn't seem to ring true ? but that doesn't mean of course that JKR hasn't invented it that way. There is also the question of the adrenaline buzz (shudder), to do the whole thing at once, and Voldemort is certainly an adrenaline junkie. I loved the speculation in the rest of the post, yes, Lily as Horcrux did make me want to throw up, and everything was screaming no, no, don't go there ? but actually having been there, it does have a certain compulsive interest and I think it is well worth bearing in mind. I too have rambling thoughts. I don't think that they are particularly probable, but I do think that they might spark off some interesting lines of enquiry. So let's think around this a bit. >He chose a living Horcrux to replace it - tending to indicate that a >living Horcrux was always intended. I definitely agree with you that Voldemort needed a living Horcrux and that he intended a living Horcrux when he went to GH. The reason I think this, is clear from what happens to Voldemort after the GH fiasco. He has no body, and that's why he's in the wilderness for all those years. If he has a living Horcrux, in the event of his mortal body being destroyed, he has another body to hand, and that IMO, is what his thinking would be. One problem with choosing any witch or wizard is that they are relatively short-lived, but is Voldemort offsetting that against the overwhelming advantage of having a body available. Or we could think about Voldemort having a plan to create an immortal body. IMO, that Voldemort had plans for an immortal body, is clear from his remark in UK GoF p 569 "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." This is an interesting line, in that he calls his current existence ? mortal life. Seeing as he has survived without a body, the part that he seems to think of as mortal in this context is his body. In the Mugglenet interview, JKR says that the first foetal-like body he created is significant. In GOF p567 he talks about creating this with Wormtail's help "a spell or two of my own invention a little help from my dear Nagini." I'm really not sure where to go with this one, but I've also had tucked in the back of my mind that Voldemort's body changes every time he makes a Horcrux. It is quite distinctly shown in the text. Therefore the making of a Horcrux is not just about the soul, it is also about the body as well. HBP P413 "It was as though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted" His voice is also affected. So mumble. Mumble, what am I saying here. That when Voldemort went to GH I think he had the intention of making a living Horcrux, and that making a Horcrux involves some transmutation of the body, which is why there doesn't seem to be a dead body for Voldemort. Not much really, but it's still early days. Saraquel From shadesof_ink at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 02:48:58 2005 From: shadesof_ink at yahoo.com (shadesof_ink) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:48:58 -0000 Subject: 7 Enchantments = themes for Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > > 7. THE MIRROR > That leaves only a mirror to be an important part of Book 7. > The Mirror of Erised? Sirus' mirror? Yet unknown mirror? All of > the above? > > I continue to be amazed with JKR's detailed planning for the > series. A great lesson to teach children to plan and graph before > writing. --- I believe the Mirror of Erised is self-explanatory. When asked in an interview what Harry would see in that mirror now, after his sixth year, JK stated that it would show the defeat of Voldemort. This is, undoubtedly, now Harry's greatest desire. However, the seventh task was more than just the mirror. It consisted of: 1) Having a pure heart/intent (Wanting the stone without using it) ---Could represent Harry's ability to love and/or killing for justice rather than hatred. 2) Facing Voldemort (also resisting his temptation?) ---This event is inevitable, and definitely not a mystery. 3) Unmasking Voldemort (Finding Voldemort behind Quirrel's facade) ---This could represent the exposure of Voldemort's weaknesses. Just my thoughts. shadesof_ink From momy424 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 03:23:26 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:23:26 -0000 Subject: What would convince Harry/canned memories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134703 > Isn't it possible that you would have memories of that initial memory? All > memories are like thread posts; there may be a thread of that memory that is > remembered, though the complete memory would be in the original strand of > memory. > Craig Momy424 here: If your memories were lost totally when you put them in a pensive like I had originally thought, then how would Slughorn pull out the correct memory for Harry and give it to him if he had already given (albeit edited) to DD already? I have to think that you keep the memory in your head, but maybe as you see it, but when it goes into the pensive it shows that actual memory as it happened and not with just your own "spin" on it. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 04:29:49 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:29:49 -0000 Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134704 juli17 at a... wrote: > He is determined that his death > happen in a way that it is most > beneficial to the plan to destroy > Voldemort. In a sense he is >"choosing" when and how he wants > to die. Snape reluctantly agrees > to this plan, Snape sure didn't seem very reluctant to me, hate was etched on every line of his face as he killed Dumbledore the instant he walked into the room. And Dumbledore would be nuts not to tell Harry about this crazy plan, he must understand Harry well enough by now to know that he would dedicate his life to killing Snape if he murdered his headmaster in front of his very eyes. As it is I wouldn't be surprised if in Harry's mind killing Snape now had an even higher priority than killing Voldemort; and if that was part of Dumbledore's grand plan it doesn't seem like a very good plan. Eggplant From jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:29:46 2005 From: jmgarciaiii at yahoo.com (jmgarciaiii) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:29:46 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: <1c2.2d2c8fe9.3014bfbe@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, viqui2 at a... wrote: > If this is the case, Tom's personality and life experience prevent him from > understanding that there is a choice. His outlook on life would be black and > white, with no 'good or evil', just means to an end. He has learned that > intimidation and fear get him his own way, therefore that is what he does. You may be righter than you think! Remember Quirrell's quote about what LV had taught him: "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it..." -Joe in SoFla From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:31:50 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:31:50 -0000 Subject: Tom, evil, choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134706 > Louise: > If > he were not a wizard he would probably be a serial killer. > zgirnius: Actually, Louise, he *is* a serial killer ;-) (I could not resist that). Seriously, though. He does act like RL serial killers. Collecting trophies of his victims, for example (even if it is sometimes to turn the trophies into Horcruxes.) From deppendable at msn.com Mon Jul 25 03:35:16 2005 From: deppendable at msn.com (Jean Ebert) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:35:16 -0400 Subject: I still don't like Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134707 Shannon wrote: Maybe it wouldn't have bothered me so badly if I hadn't been so irritated by the behavior both of Ginny and of Hermione through the entire book. Both of them seemed to be suffering from dreadful superiority complexes and their behavior towards Fleur was just another example of it.> Of course Ginny and Hermoine have the excuse of being only 15 and 16 years old and prone to childishness alternating between their very grown-up doings and teenage antics. Molly Weasley's only excuse is that she is an over-protective mother who has always Molly-coddled her children. I think JKR named her Molly for a reason! Our beloved characters have seen and been through so much that we think them beyond their age in actual years, but they are very typical teenagers in many ways. They just have to grow up faster than most teenagers. I think that we will see a unified Weasley family (including Harry and Hermoine but not Percy) behind the union of Bill and Fleur.... Jean [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:40:40 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:40:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: <42E42EB8.6040603@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134708 > Kathy writes: > Apparently, it is in the U.S. version. A few extra lines were added. > KJ Carol responds: Speaking as an editor, I think it's very unlikely that the American editor added this speech, or that JKR herself added it to one edition but not the other. (I don't think the Canadian edition has a separate editor; it's probably identical to the British version. Correct me if I'm wrong.) It's much more likely that the British editor thought that Dumbledore's speech was too long and attempted to tighten it, cutting all the lines directly relating to "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Possibly he or she thought that child readers, and even the terrifed Draco, might misinterpret this offer, or that it provided false hope (on a second reading) that Dumbledore, too, was not already dead, despite clear evidence to the contrary. Normally, the editor would query such a deletion: "Okay to delete this or is it essential to the plot?" And since the deletion made it through to the final version of the British/Canadian edition, JKR must have okayed it, which means that, no, it isn't integral to the plot. Or maybe JKR herself thought better of it, either for the reasons I've already stated or because it gave away a key plot element of Book 7. Maybe Snape, already hated and rejected by everyone in the Order but still bound by his vow, or his sense of personal responsibility for Draco, arranges Draco's "death" at his own hands in order to save the boy from Voldemort. What more does he (Snape) have to lose? Carol, imagining Draco weeping for Snape instead of himself at the end of Book 7 P.S. I noticed at least two, maybe three, annoying typos that somehow made it past the proofreader of the American edition--a minor matter compared with this editorial difference, I realize. Too bad I didn't write them down, along with a strange word or expression that Ron used, which no American of my acquaintance would recognize. Something to ask about in OT Chatter, I guess. From lthyer at carolina.rr.com Mon Jul 25 03:56:17 2005 From: lthyer at carolina.rr.com (Lisa Thyer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:56:17 -0400 Subject: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134709 Okay, I know it is a long shot but what if Dumbledore is not dead? What if his death is faked? Couple of things that make me think this is possible. 1. Dumbledores speech to Draco: This line appears at the bottom of page 591 US edition and continues on page 592 Dumbledore to Malfoy: "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. "What is more, I can send members of the order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the death eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all." 2. Dumbledore seems to be in relatively decent shape after falling from the top of the astronomy tower. Starting on page 608 US edition harry describes Dumbledore's eyes as being closed and comments that "but for the strange angle of his arms and legs he might have been sleeping." Perhaps the draught of living death? Harry makes this potion in his first potions class 3. The next line on page 608 is the one that gets me though. "Harry reached out, straightened the half moon spectacles upon the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth with his own sleeve." I find it odd that Dumbledore's glasses were still on his face at all. After a fall from the tower I would expect them to be broken or missing. 4. My next quote is from page 645 US. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought for a moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue," I am not sure if the phoenix Harry saw seemed to be made of smoke or if it was fawkes. If it was made of smoke then it could have been Dumbledores patronus. Just some thoughts. See what you make of them Lisa Thyer From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 04:52:52 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:52:52 -0000 Subject: Draco's fear of Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134710 Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone else feel Draco is NOT cut out to be a Death Eater? Forget about all the years of hatred and torture he's brought unto non-Slytherins over the years, and think about it for a minute. If he truly had a desire to be a Death Eater and serve Voldemort, he wouldn't have wasted a minute in trying to kill Dumbledore. Not only that, but during his conversation with Dumbledore (on page 591 US edition), Dumbledore says Voldemort, and "Draco winces at the sound of the name." Also crying his eyes out in the girls' bathroom. And more than once in the book mentioning how he had to do it, or LV would kill him. And he was so close to giving into DD's words, and I'm sure would have if the other Death Eaters hadn't shown up. Would a true DE behave this way? I think from the beginning, up until HBP, he wanted to be on the dark side. He grew up hearing it glorified and believing there was no other option than being LV's slave. Then, once he got a taste of it first-hand, he was terrified. I'm not saying he'll become Harry's third best friend, or anywhere near it. But, either he's not strong enough to handle the pressure of being on the dark side, and will eventually become another Peter Pettigrew. Or, his conscience will catch up with him and force him to do something right, no matter how great his fear is. Not to mention, Dumbledore saw something in him. Even if DD has been fooled by Snape, there's no way Malfoy could take him in. For one thing, he's not that smart, and for a nother he's not as experienced as Snape. *Rizza* From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Jul 25 03:41:55 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:41:55 EDT Subject: Prophecy misinterpretation? Message-ID: <1d9.40fb19bb.3015b983@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134711 >>Cheryl: >> >>The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approches. >>With the word "born" in the next line, this is usually >>interpreted to refer to the approching birth of the one who has >>this power. Who was literally approaching when this prophecy was >>made? Severus Snape. Christina: Wow, Cheryl. That would be the coolest thing...if we got to the end of the series and said, "Wait a second...the prophecy was totally talking about Snape!" It's a bit of a stretch to say that Snape's mom might have "defied" LV three times in their school years, but still. Your symbolic "rebirth" idea is interesting; it's too bad his real birthday isn't at the end of July (I think JKR's website has said that it is in January). In any case, I doubt that your idea is JKR's intention, but I still love the theory. >>cijimcb: >>So then wouldn't Snape hear the whole thing if he was listening and caught right by the >>door then immediately brought into the room? It seems as if it he should have heard >>the latter half, then get caught. >>Sherrie here: >>Doesn't Dumbledore tell Harry that the only two living persons who KNOW the >>whole prophecy are the two of them? Suppose Snape DID overhear the entire >>thing - but Dumbledore Obliviated the last part? Christina: (HBP, US, "The Seer Overheard): " 'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore...' " So when the door flew open, the barkeep was talking to Snape, presumably a "what the heck are you doing?" kind of conversation. Snape was "waffling" (meaning to speak or write evasively..don't know if this is a word that's commonly used in Britain, but I'll admit I had to look it up) and trying to explain himself. The way I figure it, Snape did hear the beginning of the prophecy but was caught by the barman a couple lines into it. He engaged Snape in conversation as Trelawney was finishing her prophecy, and then the door flew open (I'm assuming right after she finished) as the conversation grew more heated. Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:08:36 2005 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:08:36 -0000 Subject: Prophecy misinterpretation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ciji" wrote: > What I want to know is... how could Snape have heard the beginning of > the prophecy and not the end? Let's review: he was listening at the > door, got caught, then presented to Dumbledore as a snooper. If he got > caught mid-way thru Trelawney's spiel, how did he miss the second > half? If there was an interruption (as Trelawney put it) in the > interview, did Trelawney continue to give the prophecy after Snape > left? Of course not, because she saw Snape was there. So then > wouldn't Snape hear the whole thing if he was listening and caught > right by the door then immediately brought into the room? It seems > as if it he should have heard the latter half, then get caught. > > -ceej Hello! I didn't snip your post as it was semi-short and I couldn't find a part that was less important than another. I had this thought as well but then I reasoned that if you are listening at a key hole, then you would have to be very quiet and concentrate on what is being said to even hear what is going on in the other room. I think that Snape witnessed the beginning of the prophecy at the door and then in the middle, Aberforth came along and caught him. Snape would have had to stand up and turn his attentions to Aberforth. While his confrontation with Aberforth is going on, Trelawny is finishing the prophecy and then coming back out of her trance-like state, just in time to see Snape being brought in to DD. Does this make sense to you? -Katie From a1batross at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 04:35:31 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:35:31 -0000 Subject: Will Voldemort Kill The Malfoys?/Depressed In-Reply-To: <4474aa62f26da13a32579b825430a6e5@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb Roberts wrote: > Yes, Dumbledore's death and the manner in which he died is depressing. While I think if DD had a choice he would prefer preferred to go out fighting I disagree slightly. Sirius Black would have preferrred to, and did, go out fighting. Dumbledore was not an offensive fighter - Dumbledore was a DEFENDER. Even when he fought Voldemort himself, Dumbledore fought to constrain Voldemort and defend Harry, but not to kill Voldemort or at least blast him out of his new body. And among the many things that Dumbledore accomplished with his death was the one which was most important in his mind - to defend the students in his care, both Draco Malfoy and Harry Potter. I believe Dumbledore died exactly as he would have wished - giving his life in the defense of his students. --Bob Alberti http://albatross.org From hnzoez at aol.com Mon Jul 25 04:36:36 2005 From: hnzoez at aol.com (Terri) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:36:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134714 I've just joined this group and haven't had time to read back much, but on the subject of Snape, ever since OOTP we've learned that Snape is considered the best wizard at Occlumency....so, it would be very easy for him to fool VM into believing that he is on his side. I honestly think that Snape is on the OOTP side. I just have this feeling that although Snape has been horrible to Harry all these years, what with being bullied and made fun of by James, Sirius, Lupin, ect.,that there is some good deep down in Snape. I can't bring myself to believe that Dumbledore has been fooled. When Dumbledore and Snape face each other at the end of HBP there is no indication that D is pleading for S NOT to take his life, on the contrary, he very well could be asking him to go on and do it, knowing that Harry's been given all the info he needs to continue destroying the Horcruxes, and that the fate of Harry, as well as the entire wizarding world, lies now in his confidence of Snape. D was so adament throughout the book about his confidence in Snape, everytime Harry had something negative to say, D would always assure him that he felt nothing but trust in Snape. Afterall, Snape did protect Harry from the other DEs by saying that he should be left alive for VM, he wouldn't allow Harry to perform any unforgiveable curses "No unforgiveable curses from you!" when Harry was trying to stop Snape and the DEs from escaping through the gates, also, he was very angry when Harry called him a coward, seeing as how, if he is on the OOTP side, he actually has to very brave in order to try and fool VM. So my theory is that Snape really is on the right side. Terri From kjones at telus.net Mon Jul 25 05:07:25 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:07:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue?/Unbreakable Vows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E4738D.9020908@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134715 justcarol67 wrote: > > Kathy writes: > > Apparently, it is in the U.S. version. A few extra lines were added. > > KJ > > > Carol responds: > Speaking as an editor, I think it's very unlikely that the American > editor added this speech, or that JKR herself added it to one edition > but not the other. (I don't think the Canadian edition has a separate > editor; it's probably identical to the British version. Correct me if > I'm wrong.) > > It's much more likely that the British editor thought that > Dumbledore's speech was too long and attempted to tighten it, cutting > all the lines directly relating to "He cannot kill you if you are > already dead." Possibly he or she thought that child readers, and even > the terrifed Draco, might misinterpret this offer, or that it provided > false hope (on a second reading) that Dumbledore, too, was not already > dead, despite clear evidence to the contrary. Kathy writes: Sorry about that. I didn't mean that they were added without JKR's knowledge and approval. She did say on her most recent interview that she sends the manuscript to her U.S. Editor, Arthur and her U.K. Editor, Emma and then they discuss changes and/or inclusions. She did say that they argue sometimes. I just assumed that this was one of those times, like having Harry's mother and father come out of the wand in reverse order. I would think that it would be unusual for there to be differences, but there have been small errors. KJ From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 05:14:25 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:14:25 -0000 Subject: Fake AK Theory In-Reply-To: <42E45B36.1090204@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134716 > Kathy writes: > I may be missing something here, forgive me, but why would it be > preferable for Snape to hit Dumbledore, a 150 year old man in the chest > with a different curse. Surely an AK would be a faster, more merciful > kill than blasting him into the air and dropping him untold numbers of > feet. zgirnius: If I have not already made this clear, I prefer the Good!Snape theories post HBP. (Though actually I trust JKR, I'm sure if she chooses differently it will still be a fine read...) I also have a rather particular opinion of the Unforgivable Curses, and what makes them Unforgivable. I think it has to do with state of mind. Remember, you have to *mean* it to cast an Unforgivable successfully, if we believe Bella. (I see no reason not to, she appears to be an expert...) Some have speculated for AK you just need to feel hatred of any sort, towards a random object, or whatever. But my personal feeling is that for a successful AK you either have to 1) hate the target truly and deeply, or 2) be so sunk into depravity that you no longer feel the repugnance a normal person would at the thought of murder. (Because I think most people probably can and do hate *something*, that's not unfogivable.) My personal feeling is that Snape cannot AK Dumbledore for this reason. Even if he really needs to/wants to for a variety of practiccal reasons. It is possible he tries and fails...perhaps the blast, etc. is the effect of a failed AK, especially since we can presume a lot of magical power is behind the spell, Snape being what he is. Or, alternatively, Snape suspects his AK would fail, and fakes it, killing DD by throwing him off the tower in order to cover himself with the Death Eaters present. (The point of the exercise, if we believe a Good!Snape theory). As an example of a curse I think would be labelled "Dark" but not "Unforgivable" is Sectumsempra. It could be effectively used to both torture and kill another human being. However, Harry cast it successfully in a situation where he was trying to defend himself. I don't think his mental state at the time was all about utter hate of Draco, but about getting Draco before Draco could get him. I hope this clarifies, rather than confuses, my thoughts about Unforgivable Curses. From kjones at telus.net Mon Jul 25 05:44:43 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:44:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fake AK Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E47C4B.5020206@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134717 zgirnius wrote: snip > Some have speculated for AK you just need to feel hatred of any sort, > towards a random object, or whatever. But my personal feeling is that > for a successful AK you either have to 1) hate the target truly and > deeply, or 2) be so sunk into depravity that you no longer feel the > repugnance a normal person would at the thought of murder. (Because I > think most people probably can and do hate *something*, that's not > unfogivable.) My personal feeling is that Snape cannot AK Dumbledore > for this reason. Even if he really needs to/wants to for a variety of > practiccal reasons. It is possible he tries and fails...perhaps the > blast, etc. is the effect of a failed AK, especially since we can > presume a lot of magical power is behind the spell, Snape being what > he is. Or, alternatively, Snape suspects his AK would fail, and fakes > it, killing DD by throwing him off the tower in order to cover > himself with the Death Eaters present. (The point of the exercise, if > we believe a Good!Snape theory). zgirnius Kathy writes: Thanks for clarifying for me. You have some very good points and certainly logical reasoning. I am also pro-Snape. He did apparently tell Dumbledore that he was taking too much for granted, ie being able to cast a meaningful Killing Curse. I wonder how the Vow actually works. If, for instance, Dumbledore tricked Snape and faked his death, would the fact that he had not killed Dumbledore after all, kill Snape? Is it the belief of the killer that deactivates the Vow, or does the Bonder have to agree that the deed has been done. If that is the case, all they would have to do, is convince enough people to convince the Bonder that the Vow was fulfilled. Can you see any way that a magical binding would be able to tell what had happened? Are we just meant to skate past this and say "Oh well, an Unbreakable Vow is an Unbreakable Vow." This whole question perplexes the Hell out of me. KJ From dalton_yahoo at gaeacoop.org Mon Jul 25 06:19:14 2005 From: dalton_yahoo at gaeacoop.org (Elizabeth Dalton) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:19:14 -0400 Subject: Prophecy, Snape, a possible Dumbledore Horcrux... and what about Scrimgeour? Message-ID: <42E48462.80602@gaeacoop.org> No: HPFGUIDX 134718 I was so surprised when the library called me Monday to say I'd gotten to the top of the list for a copy of HBP that I didn't arrange to pick it up until Tuesday, because I assumed it was a different book... after I'd ordered my Ancient Forest Friendly copy from Canada, and was patiently waiting! Finished it in two evenings, been digesting ever since. Worth the wait, of course. I had expected we'd lose Dumbledore in this book, and after the second chapter, I was pretty sure Snape was going to get stuck with the dirty deed -- I didn't think Malfoy would manage, despite his tough talk. But there were plenty of surprises, too. (Tonks and Lupin???) Fred and George moving into providing defense supplies was a nice twist. All in all, a good read. And of course, plenty of new questions hanging: ceej suggested that Snape must have heard the whole prophecy. Earlier Cheryl suggested that in fact, the prophecy is about Snape himself, as he was the one who was "approaching" at the time. I've been wondering about this since we heard the prophecy at the end of OotP... and also, since the middle of HBP, whether even Dumbledore heard the whole thing, if there was a bit of ruckus in the middle of it. Those ellipses (...) in the middle of the recording of the prophecy have always bothered me, and I notice Dumbledore didn't have Harry dive right into that memory, but merely played it as a hologram, which might make blanks or editing less noticeable. For a while, I thought the whole prophecy was referring to Snape, but then his birthday is in January, apparently... but what if the prophecy is about two different people? What if Snape is the one who can defeat the Dark Lord, but Harry, born as the seventh month dies, is important (and marked, etc.) for a different reason? Then again, I'm pretty firmly in the "Dumbledore's faith in Snape will be vindicated" camp. Dumbledore has seemed so certain, and he was plenty suspicious of Tom Riddle, so he's not taken in by every evil charmer who comes along. Perhaps he had bottled memories of Snape's to refer to, or an Unbreakable Vow (with Hagrid as the Binder? Is this the ONE secret he's actually managed to keep?) Not that it matters. Snape could be completely self-serving and still be the one to do in Voldemort. I just happen to think Snape is too complicated to be simply a bad guy at this point. He and Harry will always hate each other, but that doesn't mean Snape is without redeeming value. I agree with others who have pointed out that even as he exits, he's teaching Harry. There's something very complicated going on there. The interesting thing is that based on the TLC/Mugglenet interview, Trelawney apparently could have a complete memory of the prophecy, accessable by pensieve, even though she doesn't remember her prophecies when she actually produces them. Then again, Dumbledore's memory should also have been complete, even if he was distracted by disturbances at the door at the time. But he said he had told Harry everything he "knows." Hmm.... I have a theory to suggest about the potion in the cave, which I didn't find on a search (sorry, I just couldn't possibly keep up with posts this week). Sure, Dumbledore would never willingly make a Horcrux -- not using the method described to Harry. But what the potion puts Dumbledore through is clearly horrific. Whether it's watching Voldemort kill people, or just watching his own worst nightmares, e.g. the students being killed, Harry or his parents being killed, etc., Dumbledore would rather be killed himself than live through it. One might, in fact, describe the experience as one of having his soul ripped apart. Notice that he describes his return to Hogwarts as "more or less." Maybe he's less half a soul? He's certainly greatly debilitated. Did that tearing of his soul inadvertently make a Horcrux? Is that why his portrait isn't very chatty? Was that his Patronus flying away at the end? Could that happen if he were really dead? (But would Fawkes have been mourning if not?) But if there is now a Dumbledore Horcrux around (perhaps the locket that Harry has), Dumbledore isn't going to want it to stay that way. He would not want to be existing anywhere with half a soul. He may be able to advise Harry in some way through the Horcrux ("Use the Force, Luke..."), but he'll want the Horcrux destroyed, if not immediately, at least as soon as Voldemort is defeated. Tossing the Horcrux through the Veil should suffice, I would think, especially if Dumbledore wants to go. I could just see him (or his spirit form), smiling at Harry, waving goodbye, and calmly striding through the arch to face the next mystery. Miscellaneous other questions: Nobody else has a clock like Molly's. Where did she get it? Did she make it? Did Arthur -- with his fascination for Muggle implements? Who is Dumbledore's heir? (Maybe he left everything in trust to the school.) Anybody else notice Trelawney is getting pretty good with those cards-- even if she isn't paying attention? What would Kreacher have told Harry if Harry and Dobby had let him talk? Now here's the question that's really bothering me: we were given a description of the "half-blood prince" way back when from Rowling herself, and it matches the description on p16 of the American printing... of Rufus Scrimgeour. Again, I searched through the archives, and I don't see anything about this. Did I miss it? Why were we told Scrimgeour is the Prince if Snape is? Usually JKR doesn't out and out lie to us. Are there two Princes? Is Snape doing even MORE undercover work? It boggles the mind. It's going to be a long two years. Elizabeth From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 06:54:26 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's fear of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725065426.51078.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134719 Rizza says > If he truly had a desire to be a Death Eater and > serve Voldemort, he > wouldn't have wasted a minute in trying to kill > Dumbledore. Not only > that, but during his conversation with Dumbledore > (on page 591 US > edition), Dumbledore says Voldemort, and "Draco > winces at the sound > of the name." Also crying his eyes out in the girls' > bathroom. And > more than once in the book mentioning how he had to > do it, or LV > would kill him. And he was so close to giving into > DD's words, and > I'm sure would have if the other Death Eaters hadn't > shown up. Would > a true DE behave this way? Silence says In my opinion, I think this has to do with the fact that Draco is very young still, in some ways. Yes, he is almost of age when he is given the task, but Draco seems to me like he was a very sheltered child, even assuming that he grew up with a few Dark Objects around his house. He isn't 'toughed' up in the way Harry is. Think about it, he still has both his parents, he grew up rich, he's gotten everything handed to him on a silver platter...then suddenly, in the course of a few months, EVERYTHING changes for him. This in itself is not an easy thing to handle. So taking this into consideration, and then add the fact that he has been given an almost impossible assignment to complete, yeah, it's a bit overwhelming for him. Especially when you add in the fact that he fears for not only his own life, but his mother's as well. I think, if the circumstances were different, he would have fallen into the role of a DE more easily. If his father hadn't gotten on LV's bad side, and wasn't in Azkaban, Draco most likely would never have been assigned the task of killing Dumbledore. If Draco had first been assigned easier tasks to complete, I can see him being very proud of his sucesses and slowly taking things further and further until he is just like his father. The way things DID turn out though, I think there is still a chance for Draco. Fear is a very sobering thing, and maybe being thrown headfirst into the situation he was thrown in will be enough to shock him to reality and hopefully he has the chance to redeam himself. No matter what Snape's movites were for being the one to kill Dumbledore, the fact that Draco wasn't the one to do it in the end is significant, I think. Because of this, he has a chance. ~Silence, who is counting this as post 1 for Monday considering it is 12:45 am where she is, and hope others do too, as her 3 posts for Sunday are already used up. Gah! ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 07:07:57 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:07:57 -0000 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tina_00" wrote: > Hello, > > ...edited... > > What exactly do we know about life's debt? If I'm not mistaken, > we've only heard about it from Dumbledore, and he didn't explain > much when talking about Wormtail. But Dumbledore was sure that > having a Death Eater who owes his life to Harry won't exactly be a > plus to Voldemort. > > ...edited... > > Oh, I don't know how it affects the characters - I am a lurker for a > reason, and the reason is that you guys come up with much better > theories than I do -, but am I the only one who thinks that this may > play a big part in book 7? > > Cristina bboyminn: Life Debt seem to be a little deep than you might think. Check out this quote from the most recent interview with JKR and Melissa Anelli for The Leaky Cauldron. The Leaky Cauldron- http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html MA: Does she (Ginny) have a life debt to Harry from book two? JKR: No, not really. Wormtail is different. You know, part of me would just love to explain the whole thing to you, plot of book seven, you know, I honestly would. I think we can safely say that Harry saved Ginny's life, but at the same time she doesn't have a Life Debt to him. I think part of the reason is that it was indirect. Harry killed Diary!Tom and the Basilisk and THAT saved Ginny. In Wormtail/Peter's case, by direct action, Harry prevented Peter's death. The distinction is very subtle. For example, I don't think Harry owes Snape a life debt for trying to save Harry when Quirrel was jinxing his broom. True he muttered some counter jinxes, but it was Hermione's actions direct and indirect that saved Harry. Although, I don't honestly think that created a life debt between Harry and Hermione either, because again, the action was too indirect. Next, even though Dumbledore says that Life Debt is magic at it's deepest, I'm more inclined to think it is nature at it's deepest. True there is an essense of magic there but it's not in the form of cast spells and enchantments. I think is more subtle and natural, perhaps organic is a better word. Just a thought. Hope it helps. Steve/bboyminn From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jul 25 07:42:11 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:42:11 -0700 Subject: Snape's Parents Message-ID: <1062520548.20050725004211@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134721 Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering git into a yak)? Is it possibly Tom and Merope redux, and Snape Sr. is about to desert the family? Or are these not the people we assume they are? -- Dave From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 08:13:18 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:13:18 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum - quick clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134722 hekatesheadband wrote: > > The only inference I feel justified in making, on the basis of the text, is that Snape is more likely endangering than protecting Draco by removing him from Hogwarts, and that that strikes me as not reflected well on Snape's intentions. ... > > bboyminn responded: > First let me point out that at the top of the tower, and as they fight there way out of the castle, there are more Death Eaters there than Snape and Draco. My guess was that if Draco wasn't able to kill > Dumbledore, then the remaining Death Eaters would have surely killed > him on the spot. But Snape stepped in and took charge, he dispatched > Dumbledore and dragged Draco off with him. In my opinion, dragging > Draco off in the moment saves Draco's life. > > Once everyone has had time to cool down, Snape will bring Draco to > Voldemort who will punish him SEVERELY. But after the punishment, > Draco will still be alive. Much better to be tortured for your > misdeeds than to be killed for them. > So, in a sense, you are saying that by taking Draco away with him, > Snape has doomed Draco. However, I am saying that the fact that Snape took charge, and removed Draco from the scene is the only thing that saved Draco. Once they are away from the scene, Draco's death is no longer a matter of DE discretion, but becomes a matter for Lord > Voldemort to deal with. With Snape, Mr. Malfoy, and Mrs. Malfoy > begging for leniency, I think the Dark Lord may decide that after > punishment, he may be able to use Draco in the future. Draco is, > afteral, very young and it would be understandable that the task of > killing Dumbledore might have been more than he was able to do. > Certainly, greater men than Draco have wanted to kill Dumbledore and > failed. > Carol adds: I agree with Steve that Snape stepped in, took charge, and not only got Draco safely past the skirmishes but got the Death Eaters to follow him off the Hogwarts grounds. His next step will almost certainly be to present Draco's case to Voldemort, not pleading for mercy but using logic, persuasion, and Occlumency to show the benefits of treating Draco with a degree of leniency. I don't think Lucius Malfoy's plea will count for much, though, even if he has the chance to express it, and I think that Narcissa's pleas would fall on deaf ears, and there we see one difference between Voldemort and Snape. The only one who has the skill, the ability, and the authority to influence Voldemort in the matter is Snape. I think Snape will point out that Draco did partly accomplish his mission. He did repair the vanishing cabinet and link Borgin and Burkes to Hogwarts and he did let the Death Eaters in. If Draco hadn't gone that far toward accomplishing his mission, Dumbledore would not be dead. i think that Snape, who is still bound to protect Draco either by the oath or by his own sense of duty (as shown by his escorting him out safely and shouting, "Run, Draco!"), will speak for him and point this out to Voldemort. Snape is also ending the duelling and getting the Death Eaters out of Hogwarts. And, as many people have pointed out, he stops on the way to protect and instruct Harry under the guise of taunting him. (Surely the fact that he's not nearly as good at duelling as Snape is a revelation in itself to Harry.) Snape does not join in the attack on Hagrid, nor does he fight the Order members in the hallway. I think he is protecting the school to the last--and protecting Draco for as long as the task requires. Someone mentioned leaving Draco at the school. But even if it were possible for Snape to get him away from the Death Eaters and hand him over to McGonagall (who is busy duelling), Draco would not be allowed to remain at the school. He has committed several crimes: two counts of attempted murder (the cursed necklace and the poisoned wine); he has Imperio'd Madam Rosmerta through a cursed coin; and he has provided the means for Death Eaters to enter the school, making him indirectly responsible for the attack on Bill by Fenrir Grayback, the burning of Hagrid's hut, and any other injuries caused by the Death Eaters. It's true that he was under coercion to let the Death Eaters in and in particular, to try to kill Dumbledore, but it was his own vain boasts that he had figured out a way to get into the school using the vanishing cabinets that got him into trouble in the first place. Nor do I think he was forced to become a Death Eater. It seems to have been his own choice, and at first, he seems to have been pretty cocky about it. At any rate, he would certainly be both expelled and arrested, with his wand taken from him and broken as Hagrid's had been. No, it would not be a kindness, or even a possibility, to leave Draco at Hogwarts. Better to take his chances with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, at least if Snape is with him to keep him silent and inconspicuous. Maybe Snape could persuade Voldemort to send him home to his mother until he's of age, a humiliating punishment for any sixteen-year-old, especially if it can be magically enforced. Carol, who wishes she could read all the posts, reread the book, and still have time to live her life From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 09:35:03 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:35:03 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie (adding a bit of COS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > > > > Actually, what struck me when reading HBP wasn't scenes from PoA but > > from CoS - I kept thinking of the deleted scene from Borgin & Burkes > > where Harry hides in the cabinet and the Malfoys come in. Poor boy - > > if he'd taken a step back, or closed the door all the way, he might > > have ended up at Hogwarts early! > > > > Tonks: > The scene in COS, was it deleted in the movie? Yes; if you get the DVD, it's included in the deleted scenes section. I do not have my copy of the movie with me, but I recall arriving in the shop through a cabinet. --azriona From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 09:43:10 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:43:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: <1062520548.20050725004211@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was > Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory > (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle > husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering git into > a yak)? Is it possibly Tom and Merope redux, and Snape Sr. > is about to desert the family? Or are these not the people we > assume they are? > > -- > Dave I've always wondered about that scene. Do we know for sure that it's his parents at all? "Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were no his - a hook- nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner..." OotP, p 592. Granted, the man and the boy sound like they resemble Severus Snape. But the last two memories aren't in chronological order - the second memory is that of a teenager; the third is of a "scrawny boy", infering he's less than a teenager. One could make the argument that the hook-nosed man is Severus Snape himself, although I suspect Harry would have recongized him as a younger version. Perhaps it's not Snape's mother his father is yelling at, or perhaps she loved her husband too much to turn him into a yak (or was allergic to yaks). Or perhaps it's not his father yelling. There's too little information in a scene pictured in less than 20 words to make any definitive statements. --azriona From trekkie at stofanet.dk Mon Jul 25 09:46:45 2005 From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:46:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Parents References: <1062520548.20050725004211@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001b01c590fd$c4c0ea30$080aa8c0@LHJ> No: HPFGUIDX 134725 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hardenbrook" > Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was > Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory > (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle > husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering git into > a yak)? Is it possibly Tom and Merope redux, and Snape Sr. > is about to desert the family? Or are these not the people we > assume they are? Perhaps it is Snape's maternal grandfather, shouting at his daughter for marrying a Muggle? I was very puzzled at this at first, too, but it makes sense if the man isn't Snape's father. Of course if could also be that his father was an "Uncle Vernon" type of Muggle, but then again, why wasn't he turned into a yak? *G* ~Trekkie From rmatovic at ssk.com Mon Jul 25 09:47:22 2005 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:47:22 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134726 cathmorgan wrote: > If Snape had feelings for Lily, so much the worse and could have been > one more reason for his leaving the DEs and seeking out DD, but it > could hardly be the only source of remorse and culpability. I believe > that we will find out an interesting relationship b/n Snape and Lily > but I would be very surprised if it turned out to be romantic at all, > except for the possibility of a conflicted crush on Snape's part. > I believe that it is the only source of remorse and culpability, and an extremely important one. Snape loved Lily ... she was kind to him, she was everything he wasn't -- popular, happy, the kind of shining star Sluggy like to collect. Maybe he even devoted himself to potions and to developing all those things written by HBP in the textbook in order to impress her or form a bond with her. We hear over and over that she was a natural at potions. Snape loved her obsessively. And he hated James. Even before Lily and James were together, he hated James. Imagine how much more Snape hated James after Lily and he fell in love and married. Snape would have been furious. It would have pushed him over to the dark arts -- always an interest of his, but not something he had really pursued (remember that the writings of the HBP aren't tinged with a mean or evil-minded undercurrent). And Voldemort would have used Snape's obsession to his own ends. Snape betrayed the Potters by telling LV about the prophecy (I'm still undecided about whether Snape knew it pointed to the Potters and actively wanted James killed, or if he only found out later it was about the Potters). LV killed James and Lily ... Snape is filled with heart wrenching guilt and remorse... he has caused the death of his object of obsessive love. He hates Harry really and truly - because Harry looks and (at least in SS's opinion) acts like James and because Harry 's presence constantly reminds Snape of his own greatest and most regretted misdeed. A small supporting point ... at the end of OotP LV talks about Lily's death and is scornful about how unnecessary and silly it was ... it would be a gross overstatement to say he regrets killing her, but he doesn't seem to relish her death or to have been pleased with it. Why not? Because her death had consequences he didn't like. One nasty consequence of her death is that Harry is protected, but another is that he loses one of his most trusted servants, the one who in GoF he says "will never return." Variation on this theory: Snape was a double agent in the old days as well. And his loyalty to the Order was rooted in his love for Lily. James joins the Order too and their work brings Lily and James together. Snape begins to waver in his double agent role a bit and gets a bit reckless, acting independently and not always following or waiting for DDs orders. Sharing the prophecy with LV is part of this acting out and it has the profound consequences outlined above. Some thoughts, Rebecca [Who was in one of the few places on earth you couldn't get HBP on 7/16, but got the last copy in the airport while changing planes in Vienna on the way back on Friday] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 25 09:46:49 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:46:49 -0400 Subject: Moaning Myrtle's House (bit spoile/Re: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle Message-ID: <003101c590fd$c7fbc9e0$4ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134727 Roxanne said: "Well she's certainly whiny enough to be a slytherin. I found it interesting that Malfoy and her developed a relationship. In HBP we see Malfoy as more vulnerable and insecure than ever before. Viewing him in this light it's easy to see how he and Myrtle might have some things in common. Being from the same house might have been part of what got them talking in the first place." We've been led to believe that Myrtle was Muggle-born. "But I know one ting: last tme the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died." (COS pg 167, Can Ed) Draco Malfoy was told that much by his father, but wasn't told much more because it would "look suspicious" if he knew too much. ------------- Merrylinks said: "There is another element of Snape's AK curse which doesn't ring true. We see the green light, but we don't hear the rushing sound. When Voldemort killed Frank Bryce, it says, "There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." In the account of Snape killing DD we only see a green light, and there is no mention of a rushing sound." There was no rushing sound mentioned though when Cedric was killed. "A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: 'Avada Kedavra!' A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him..." (GOF pg 553 Can Ed) The swishing noise, of course, being the wand cutting through the air, not the rushing sound heard when Frank Bryce was killed. However, when Fake!Moody performed the Avada Kedavra on the spider, there was: "There was a flash of blinding green light, and a rushing sound, as though a vast, invisible something was soaring through the air - instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakably dead." (GOF 191 Can Ed) Perhaps it is something to do with the power of the wizard performing the AK? Mind, I just re-read the ones LV sent at DD in OotP, and there doesn't appear to be any 'rushing sound' there, either. Was he not really trying to kill DD in the MoM, or has his power somehow been diminished? And, just for good measure...a few funny lines...: "I am a wizard, not a baboon brandishing a stick." What a joy Flitwick is! The new Gryffindor pasword: Abstinence. JKR does have a sense of humour doesn't she? CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon Jul 25 09:51:53 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:51:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" Message-ID: <200.647a8bb.30161039@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134728 Rebecca: I believe that it is the only source of remorse and culpability, and an extremely important one. Snape loved Lily ... she was kind to him, she was everything he wasn't -- popular, happy, the kind of shining star Sluggy like to collect. Maybe he even devoted himself to potions and to developing all those things written by HBP in the textbook in order to impress her or form a bond with her. We hear over and over that she was a natural at potions. Snape loved her obsessively. And he hated James. Even before Lily and James were together, he hated James. Imagine how much more Snape hated James after Lily and he fell in love and married. Snape would have been furious. It would have pushed him over to the dark arts -- always an interest of his, but not something he had really pursued (remember that the writings of the HBP aren't tinged with a mean or evil-minded undercurrent). And Voldemort would have used Snape's obsession to his own ends. Snape betrayed the Potters by telling LV about the prophecy (I'm still undecided about whether Snape knew it pointed to the Potters and actively wanted James killed, or if he only found out later it was about the Potters). LV killed James and Lily ... Snape is filled with heart wrenching guilt and remorse... he has caused the death of his object of obsessive love. He hates Harry really and truly - because Harry looks and (at least in SS's opinion) acts like James and because Harry 's presence constantly reminds Snape of his own greatest and most regretted misdeed. A small supporting point ... at the end of OotP LV talks about Lily's death and is scornful about how unnecessary and silly it was ... it would be a gross overstatement to say he regrets killing her, but he doesn't seem to relish her death or to have been pleased with it. Why not? Because her death had consequences he didn't like. One nasty consequence of her death is that Harry is protected, but another is that he loses one of his most trusted servants, the one who in GoF he says "will never return." Variation on this theory: Snape was a double agent in the old days as well. And his loyalty to the Order was rooted in his love for Lily. James joins the Order too and their work brings Lily and James together. Snape begins to waver in his double agent role a bit and gets a bit reckless, acting independently and not always following or waiting for DDs orders. Sharing the prophecy with LV is part of this acting out and it has the profound consequences outlined above. Cassie: I really don't want to sound dumb. I've been more of a lurker until recently. But where did you get the idea that Snape was in love with Lily? I've seen other people say this, but I don't know what canon supports it. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From littleleah at handbag.com Mon Jul 25 09:55:02 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:55:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134729 Dave wrote: >Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was >Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory >(_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle >husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering git into >a yak)? Is it possibly Tom and Merope redux, and Snape Sr. >is about to desert the family? Or are these not the people we >assume they are? Leah: Dumbledore suggests in HBP that Merope's magic improved significantly once her abusive father was removed from the scene. The magic of Harry's abused childhood was also very under expressed compared with the exuberances of the Weasley children, even accepting the latter lived in a magical household. So if this is a scene chez Snape, then I suspect it is the fact that her husband is a domineering git which is suppressing Eileen's powers. I wonder if JKR intends this as a reflection of the inability of many people in abusive relationships to remove themselves from the abuser? And I do think this is Snape's family because I think we are expected to see Snape/Voldemort paralells Leah From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 25 09:56:28 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 05:56:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Parents Message-ID: <1da.4096f406.3016114c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134730 In a message dated 7/25/2005 5:45:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, azriona at juno.com writes: Granted, the man and the boy sound like they resemble Severus Snape. But the last two memories aren't in chronological order - the second memory is that of a teenager; the third is of a "scrawny boy", infering he's less than a teenager. One could make the argument that the hook-nosed man is Severus Snape himself, although I suspect Harry would have recongized him as a younger version. Perhaps it's not Snape's mother his father is yelling at, or perhaps she loved her husband too much to turn him into a yak (or was allergic to yaks). Or perhaps it's not his father yelling. There's too little information in a scene pictured in less than 20 words to make any definitive statements. --------------- Sherrie here: I was discussing this with my sister the other day - she isn't a fan, really, but between her two kids, friends at work, and me, she has the gist of the series. She suggested that perhaps that was Grandpa Prince, berating his daughter, and turning him into a yak wasn't an option. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 10:50:47 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:50:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: <1da.4096f406.3016114c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134731 Azriona: > Granted, the man and the boy sound like they resemble Severus Snape. > But the last two memories aren't in chronological order - the second > memory is that of a teenager; the third is of a "scrawny boy", > infering he's less than a teenager. One could make the argument that > the hook-nosed man is Severus Snape himself, although I suspect Harry > would have recongized him as a younger version. > > Perhaps it's not Snape's mother his father is yelling at, or perhaps > she loved her husband too much to turn him into a yak (or was > allergic to yaks). Or perhaps it's not his father yelling. There's > too little information in a scene pictured in less than 20 words to > make any definitive statements. > Sherrie here: > > I was discussing this with my sister the other day - she isn't a fan, > really, but between her two kids, friends at work, and me, she has the gist of the > series. She suggested that perhaps that was Grandpa Prince, berating his > daughter, and turning him into a yak wasn't an option. Now Ginger: It seems there are several takes on that scene. Snape is the man. Snape is the boy, and Tobias is the man. Snape is the boy and Grandpa Prince is the man. Right now, I am leaning towards Grandpa being the yeller. I'm not discounting that Tobias could have been yelling. Perhaps Eileen did something where she knew she was wrong and didn't strike back out of shame. Infidelity? Toby could have been yelling "You betrayed me and our marriage! I loved you! I trusted you!" or something in that vein. Or he may not have known she was a witch, and caught her using magic, and she let him yell rather than use magic against him, knowing that it would only turn him away from her futher. All guesses. What gets me wondering about this scene is the context as a memory. If you look at the photos in your house, you'll note there are candid shots (my sister got a new digital camera this weekend-nuf said) and there are shots marking occasions. The memories Snape and Harry saw of each other fit into these. Candid shots, which portray a "typical scene": the boy shooting flies, Harry being chased by Ripper, Harry being jealous of Dud's new bike... all show a representation of a typical day. Snape is a bored teen, Harry is bothered by the Dursleya and jealous of Dudders. Occasion shots: the Horntail, Dead Cedric, Herm as a cat, Cho under the mistletoe. These show memories that stand out in Harry's mind. So is this arguement a typical shot or an occasional one? Lots of people tend to think it is typical, and come to the conclusion that Snape was abused as a child. I don't know why, but I tend to think of it as an occasion. Somewhere in Snape's past, something happened where a man yelled at at woman as a child looked on crying. Maybe it will be important. Or maybe it won't. I think if any of us meet JKR, this is a good question to ask her. Ginger, caught up again, for now. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 11:26:25 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:26:25 -0000 Subject: Random thoughts and speculations after rereading JKR's interview on Leaky and In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134732 vmonte: The watches are not the same. Dumbledore's is a pocket watch. The PS/SS book describes it as having no hands but having planets that move around it's face. Ron's has stars on it instead of planets. Vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 11:50:24 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:50:24 -0000 Subject: Book 1 Trials ....... and what about Scrimgeour - reply In-Reply-To: <42E48462.80602@gaeacoop.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134733 Elizabeth: Now here's the question that's really bothering me: we were given a description of the "half-blood prince" way back when from Rowling herself, and it matches the description on p16 of the American printing... of Rufus Scrimgeour. Again, I searched through the archives, and I don't see anything about this. Did I miss it? Why were we told Scrimgeour is the Prince if Snape is? Usually JKR doesn't out and out lie to us. Are there two Princes? Is Snape doing even MORE undercover work? It boggles the mind. Valky: What's most likely here is that your source was misquoted somewhere along the line. The Rufus Scrimgeour description was a teaser given directly by Jo through her website jkrowling.com (n Easter in Potterverse - Christmas is book release). The passage that you're speaking of was introduced on the website as a passage from HBP, not necessarily about *the* HBP. It comes as no surprise that word got around this was the description of the prince, that was the popular theory not long after the pasage was released, but AFAIR JKR didn't explicitly say anything but that this new character would appear in the sixth book. On the other hand I have a small bother in the same frame myself, I was actually dissppointed to discover that Snape was the HBP, myself. Not because I didn't want him to be, but because I felt a little misled myself by the "hints about Snape's geneaology" quote, that convinced me to write off Sevvie as a candidate. It was clever of JKR to do so because this and other misdirections ("look over here now"s) lead me, and probably a few others too, to ignore the prospects of his role in book six for the most part. Its a lesson in constant vigilance for us interested in puzzling out book plots, like myself. Don't fall for it!! LOL shadesof_ink: I believe the Mirror of Erised is self-explanatory. When asked in an interview what Harry would see in that mirror now, after his sixth year, JK stated that it would show the defeat of Voldemort. This is, undoubtedly, now Harry's greatest desire. However, the seventh task was more than just the mirror. It consisted of: 1) Having a pure heart/intent (Wanting the stone without using it) ---Could represent Harry's ability to love and/or killing for justice rather than hatred. 2) Facing Voldemort (also resisting his temptation?) ---This event is inevitable, and definitely not a mystery. 3) Unmasking Voldemort (Finding Voldemort behind Quirrel's facade) ---This could represent the exposure of Voldemort's weaknesses. Valky: I find myself agreeing with what you point out here, shades. These are all the aspects of the mirror. and I'd like to add to your thoughts. I'd like to work on connecting the Half Blood Prince Book and the Potions puzzle in another sense. Lets elaborate on the trials themselves and how they were psed by the trio; Fluffy - certainly a formidable abstacle, but with a certain whimsy about it. ie Fluffy, Hagrids little pet etc. The Snare - Rather more sinister but only to the unknowing. A little cleverness (brightness), and of course knowing the secret gets them beyond it. The Winged Key - This trial was rather less sinister again, part from the mention that past rough handling of the Key reminded the trio that danger lay ahead and a couple of comparably small things attacking, its an easy task they have the tools for. The Chess Game - A daunting trial, seemingly way above their skill level, but some courage, trust in each other and the willingness to sacrifice something for the greter good leds them across the board. Also Harry sees a freind fall for the first time in the Chess game. The Troll - There's actually nothing here, no trial, just clues to what lies ahead. (Quirrel-Troll) The Potions Puzzle - Pure logic, some deduction and reasoning and the chooser must drink from the *smallest* bottle to move ahead. So the Potions Puzzle - In this light, OOtP and the HBP seem to take on a new direction to me. While HBP is the most recent canon we have, it seems by my deductions that OOtP is the clue holder, and HBP is more like the rhyme. We all know that the Hermione deduced the rhyme to indicate the *smallest* bottle with just a little left in it, as the one that takes you forward. I don't know about others but in a way that seems to cry out "Last dregs of Good!Snape canon", to me. The Potion makes one very cold after drinking it.. What do others think? Especially regarding the thought that the secret to the unmasking of Voldemort is hidden in OOtP. Valky It's going to be a long two years. From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 11:57:39 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:57:39 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <200.647a8bb.30161039@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134734 > Cassie: > > I really don't want to sound dumb. I've been more of a lurker until > recently. But where did you get the idea that Snape was in love with Lily? I've > seen other people say this, but I don't know what canon supports it. > > ~Cassie~ > Cassie, you are not sounding dumb at all. There is no canon to support this, this is just shipper stuff. There is a theory that because Snape never speaks of Harry's mother in a bad way to Harry, like he does with James, that some of fandom has thought that Snape was madly in love with Lily. Sure, she stuck up for him when James was bullying Snape, but that doesn't mean a thing. If anything, I think Snape has nothing bad to say about Lily, because there isn't anything bad to say about Lily. They might...MIGHT..have been "friends" at Hogwarts - as both were so good at potions - but then again, they could have been rivals, as well. At any rate, he seems to respect Lily, as he doesn't insult her in Harry's presence - or it could be she is nothing to him, other than Harry's mother. also, on the subject of the memories that Harry saw in Snape's mind - the couple arguing, etc - whose to say that memories go in cronological order? The mind is a wonderful thing - it can go back & forth between memories and not get confused. I read that scene as it was Snape's parents and the young boy was Snape himself. colebiancardi From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 12:05:04 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:05:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134735 > Ginger: What gets me wondering about this scene is the context as a memory. The memories Snape and Harry saw of each other fit into these. Candid shots, which portray a "typical scene. Along the same lines - I tend to think that the shouting was a typical scene, or at least one Snape did not dwell on often. Otherwise, he would have removed it from his memories and placed it in the Pensieve along with the others. This scene could not have been that important to his daily life - or perhaps he just didn't think it important - to have remained where Harry might reach it. Moreover, it wasn't this scene that caused Snape to push Harry out. Perhaps it's overanalyzing, but Snape doesn't push Harry out until the final scene, where the boy is riding the broom and the girl is laughing at him. I rather think it's this third scene that Snape finds more important, or he would have reacted faster. (Or maybe he was just shocked that Harry got through in the first place. I know I would have been.) --azriona From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 12:51:05 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:51:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > Dumbledore suggests in HBP that Merope's magic improved > significantly once her abusive father was removed from the scene. > The magic of Harry's abused childhood was also very under expressed > compared with the exuberances of the Weasley children, even > accepting the latter lived in a magical household. So if this is a > scene chez Snape, then I suspect it is the fact that her husband is > a domineering git which is suppressing Eileen's powers. I wonder if > JKR intends this as a reflection of the inability of many people in > abusive relationships to remove themselves from the abuser? And I do > think this is Snape's family because I think we are expected to see > Snape/Voldemort paralells > I don't believe we can judge from this very incomplete scene that Snape's father was an abuser. I never automatically grant absolution to women, even if they're crying. It's perfectly possible that Snape's mother had done something terrible, and his father was shouting at her because of that. And she could be crying because she's ashamed. As I said on an earlier post, it isn't just cruel, evil fathers who get angry. Arthur Weasley was furious when he caught his sons ignorantly fooling around with an Unbreakable Vow - he didn't only shout at them, he *whupped* them, and yet I don't hear people dismissing him as a domineering git with an abusive relationship with his sons. From the little we saw in that flashback, nobody was hitting Snape, and we have no idea if this was a daily occurrence or a once-in-a-lifetime memory. My theory is that Snape's mother was doing a little Dark Magic on her own, possibly involving her son, and her husband was putting a stop to it - perhaps they'd had an agreement on how to use magic, and she broke it. Rowling takes care to point out, in the old Daily Prophet clipping, that Eileen Prince was plain and sullen, just like Merope, and she often does follow the rather cliched pattern that good females are pretty and bad ones are ugly, so I don't think we have to assume that Snape's mother was an angel. Rather than a Snape/Voldemort family parallel, there could be a Snape/Hagrid family resemblance instead. Wanda From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 12:50:19 2005 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:50:19 -0000 Subject: Snape and Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134737 Terri wrote: >>D was so adament throughout the book about his confidence in Snape, everytime Harry had something negative to say, D would always assure him that he felt nothing but trust in Snape. Afterall, Snape did protect Harry from the other DEs by saying that he should be left alive for VM, he wouldn't allow Harry to perform any unforgiveable curses "No unforgiveable curses from you!" when Harry was trying to stop Snape and the DEs from escaping through the gates, also, he was very angry when Harry called him a coward, seeing as how, if he is on the OOTP side, he actually has to very brave in order to try and fool VM. So my theory is that Snape really is on the right side. ---- I don't have my book with me, but on the night that Dumbledore and Harry leave, Harry confronts Dumbledore about Snape yet again. Dumbledore is explaining how Snape was quite upset about how Voldemort interpreted the Prohphecy, and in the middle of his statement, Harry interrupts him. I've been wondering what it is that Dumbledore was going to say. Right after that, Harry asks how Dumbledore can be ABSOLUTELY certain that Snape is trustworthy. Dumbledore pauses, thinks about something, then simply says that he trusts Snape. What's the pause about? Harry tells everyone later in the infirmary that Dumbledore said he trusted Snape because Snape said he was sorry...but that is NOT what Dumbledore said at all. There must be another reason Dumbledore had. I too find it very difficult that Dumbledore, knowing Snape's skills, would have just accepted Snape's apology and allowed him to join the Order. I know JKR has said that Dumbledore's greatest failing is that he believes the best in people, but he's not a total idiot. If Snape is indeed evil, and he's obviously brilliant at making up his own spells, do you think it's possible that Snape had some sort of charm or spell that worked at Dumbledore's mind to make him so stead-fast in his belief about Snape and where he stood? ``Krissy From rachel.evans14 at btinternet.com Mon Jul 25 11:17:08 2005 From: rachel.evans14 at btinternet.com (rachel) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:17:08 +0100 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134738 Hi! I hope this has not recently been posted - I have looked through but I may have missed something. I am intrigued by Dumbledore's withered and black hand in HBP and I am sure that there is more to this than meets the eye. In the latter part of the book Harry asks Dumbledore about his hand and is never given a straight answer, in fact the book closes without a reasonable explanation of why it happened. We do know that Snape tended to the hand (and may therefore know all about the hunt for the horcruxes) - could this be linked to the reason Dumbledore sacrifices himself at the end. Is it possible that when the vessel for part of Voldermort's soul (the ring) is destroyed that the soul fragment found a new host in the headmaster's hand, causing it to die and decay? This would mean that he had a reason to choose death, and a reason to ask Snape to be the one who commits the deed. After all, apart from Voldie, only Harry, Dumbledore and Snape appear to know anything about the Horcruxes. Okay - it's a bit far fetched - but any thoughts? Rachel x From louisemccabe88 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 11:43:51 2005 From: louisemccabe88 at hotmail.com (louisemccabe88) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:43:51 -0000 Subject: Snape as Voldemort's son Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134739 Not sure if this theory has been posted before but I cant help but notice the similarities between Snape and Voldie - tall, black hair, dark eyes, pale skin and a love of the dark arts. and why is snape's hair always falling forward partly concealing his face... to add to this the HBP's copy of the potions book is fifty years old. if this book belonged to Snape's mother before him then it would put her at hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle. Perhaps the reason Snape came over to the good side (I still believe he is good) is that Voldie did something terrible to his mum or perhaps refused to acknowledge Snape as his son. ????? lou From aidil7lls at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 11:09:53 2005 From: aidil7lls at yahoo.com (lady_aidil) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:09:53 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050725034359.79498.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134740 Miss Melanie : It's the whole idea that if someone looks evil than they are evil. If someone acts evil they are evil. And I can't handle a horrific traitor like Pettigrew being the rat to be reformed if that is where she is going then I am returning my book and I'm not even joking about this. > > I have expected more out Jo than this...I have expected surprises not black and white. I agree with you. I still think that nobody is only evil and the appeareances are too often only "the smoke screen" so I don`t judge people by it and would like to see more complicated plot than the examples from the fairytales where the ugly hag is irrevocably bad and the beautiful hero is the good one. White and black is suitable for small children, but when I want to stimulate intelectually I prefer something more sophisticated. I want to see the redeemed Slytherin,not the good one from the beginning, but the sinful person who will atone the crimes, alas the most probable sinner with hope for redemption is Pettigrew, perhaps Percy as well, which means that only Gryffindors could go astray and come back to the right path, yet no hope for bad Slytherins. Such a simplistic reality,indeed. Lady Aidil From literature_Caro at web.de Sat Jul 23 23:23:34 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:23:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape culpable In-Reply-To: <20050723113813.17663.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050723113813.17663.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <573656162.20050724012334@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134741 Larry: > It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to > Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and > the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to > mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other > students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping > at straws? Culpable could also be meant in some other way. Even if DD agreed in Snape killing him in any communicative way nobody else knew it. So culpable could be meant as a disappointment because he "breaks" your trust in him. To trust somebody you must like him in some way (Sirius neither trusted nor liked Snape) for that and (now I refer to different discussions of HFforGrownups) to like somebody could also be described as to love somebody in a non-sexual way. So breaking this trust means to hurt somebody who loves you. In my opinion this is great guilt. Caro From PippinTheHobbit4 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 09:34:22 2005 From: PippinTheHobbit4 at aol.com (pippinthehobbit4) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:34:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's biggest fear/Person coming to magic late in life Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134742 Hey, I don't post here very often as I never really see much need with so many great theories and ideas being thrown around but I don't believe I have seen the subject of Snape's biggest fear mentioned since HBP in detail, so I thought I would share my theory. I believe that Snape's biggest fear is people using his own magic against him. The first clue to this is looking back at Snape's worst memory. For the longest time I have been trying to figure out what made this memory worse than so many other horrors we can imagine were in Snape's past. (Being that he was a DE) In book six we learn that the spell James used on him, is the spell Snape himself created! I couldn't fathom how angry I would be if my worst enemy used my magic against me. This is confirmed in the following scene: "Sectum-!" "Snape flicked his wand and the curse was repelled yet again; but Harry was mere feet away now and he could see Snape's face clearly at last: He was no longer sneering or jeering; the blazing flames showed a face full of rage. Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi- "No Potter!" screamed Snape. There was a loud bang and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand. "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them-I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" [pg 603-604 HBP US Edition] Notice how Snape didn't get all that angry when Harry tried to use Sectumsempra but the minute he went to utter the spell James Potter had used against him, Snape lost it. It was too close to what Jk Rowling calls Snape's worst memory. There are very few times in the book that we see Snape drop that cold, calm demeanor and three of them are all linked to this. Finding out Sirius got away in POA, Harry seeing his worse memory and the above quoted scene. Also to back this point up, you can just look at Snape's character. One thing we know Snape wants and needs is recognition for whatever he does. Since Lupin didn't mention that Snape invented these spells (and I can't imagine James using a spell that he knew was created by Snape) we can assume he never got credit for them. Being embarrassed with a spell you created by a boy you hate in front of a crowd of your peers while none of them know it was your hard word that allowed your enemy to even hex you? I can see why it would be such a horrifying moment for him. Secondly, I wanted to bring up the question of the person who came into magic late in life. I have mentioned my opinion of this at Fiction Alley but am curious enough about it to also bring it up here. HP fans are known for over analyzing, I do it myself all the time. But could the person who comes into magic late in life be as simple as being Merope? We are told by Dumbledore that she couldn't do magic until she left the Gaunt house and her father also calls her a squib. Just a thought. -Lasplx- From literature_Caro at web.de Sat Jul 23 23:23:28 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:23:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Cave In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <279286979.20050724012328@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134743 > Saraquel: > To me the complexities of the cave scene are such a key. There is > the whole question of whose potion is it, are there memories stored > in it, and what is happening to DD when he drinks it. I've got > quite a few ideas about the potion, and have posted on this topic > before, but my ideas change as I try to unravel its complexity. > There may well be another potion or potions involved here, as the > colour of the potion in the basin is emerald green and luminescent. > I'm sure that I've read of Hermione successfully making something > like this, but I can't find it. Also, blending potions, may well > not be the same as blending paint colours!! The luminescence of the > potion could also indicate memories - can you add them to potions? > and on p530 Harry says "he saw the light as coming from a stone > basin rather like the Pensieve" There is also one interesting > remark, which might well be a clue on p535 it says "Dumbledore > drank, as though it was an antidote Harry offered him" But quite > where that leads I don't know. Caro: I might be blind, but I don't see why this potion must be one in which memories are stored. Of course it could be but it is also possible that this is an insight into DD's thoughts while this potion forces him to see how he dies (which would be a very nasty act of LV for he thinks that there is nothing worse than death. On his point of view this would make everbody stop drinking immediately; a very good protection then). I could imagine that this was refilled by R.A.B. This potion could make DD see what is happening at school (which he thinks is well protected) and the purpose of the attack. This would make him very willing to die in order to save everybody else there. I would like to call this potion then "The Potion of Mortan Knowledge". I cannot believe that this potion contains any memory. For sure you can extract it but it is neither liquid nor gas, so it has nodefinate consistency. I am really stuck into physics there, I know. Caro (who really is impatient to read book 7) From bhavna at impsmanagement.com Mon Jul 25 09:18:35 2005 From: bhavna at impsmanagement.com (Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:48:35 +0530 Subject: Dumbledore's After Death Strategy Message-ID: <0a3101c590f9$d7cfbf60$2c00a8c0@tasneem> No: HPFGUIDX 134744 Just thinking about DD's death and trying to make sense of him pleading Snape. I can not imagine DD pleading anyone to do anything much less plead someone evil. Even when DM threatens DD that he is at his mercy ...DD replies that it is DM who is at his mercy. So I definitely can not imagine him pleading Snape to spare his life - I would think he would much rather die than plead with someone for his life - hes definitely above that! I think DD knew that Snape's cover was much more important than his own life at that stage. Knowing Riddle as well as he did - DD predicted that this is the best anyone who wants to be trusted unquestioningly by LV has to do - kill 'the Only One He Ever Feared' . Snape killing DD would lead to LV's undoubted trust and belief in Snape which Snape could then use to find out LVs secrets - most importantly the location of the Horcruxes! After all it seems quite unreasonable that HP would go gallavanting around the world himself looking for them and there is really no one else left who can tell him where to start looking - that is of course until HP figures out who RAB is and anyways even RAB is supposedly dead and cant help him much. As put forth by others in this yahoo group at different times in different posts before - there are 2 ways for HP to believe Snape - DD's portrait and Fawkes. Unless of course DD has saved the memory wherein he orders Snape to kill him if need be and HP inherits the Penseive and the memory - left intentionally for him by DD in his will. But I dont know how much HP will believe in a memory seeing that they can easily be tampered with. Any more thoughts on this? Regards Bhavna India [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From art-marden at charter.net Mon Jul 25 04:50:50 2005 From: art-marden at charter.net (mardaf317) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:50:50 -0000 Subject: Is DD a pureblood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134745 I was wondering if DD was pureblood. It seems that the truly "great" ones seen to be mixed. Hermione, Harry, Lily, Snape, LV. While purebloods like LV grandfather and mother, the Malfoys don't seem all that powerful (note that the DE couldn't defeat a bunch of teenagers in the ministry.) mardaf317 From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 13:08:26 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:08:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachel" wrote: > I am intrigued by Dumbledore's withered and black hand in HBP and I am sure > that there is more to this than meets the eye. In the latter part of the > book Harry asks Dumbledore about his hand and is never given a straight > answer, in fact the book closes without a reasonable explanation of why it > happened. I'm also interested in hearing more about this hand - despite the promises to tell more throughout the book, Dumbledore never does quite explain what happened. Also, does anyone know for sure WHICH hand it was? At first I assumed that it was Dumbledore's non-wand hand (for convenience's sake, I just mentally call that "his left hand", though I've no idea if he's left- or right-handed). Since he was able to use his wand, I assumed his regular hand was undamaged. But the first time Harry sees him, he says that Dumbledore pulls out his wand quickly (to move the sofa in the Dursleys' living room), and then, "As he replaced his wand in his pocket, Harry saw that his hand was blackened and shrivelled; it looked as though his flesh had been burned away." That sounds as if it's his "right" hand, or wand-hand that was damaged. At this point, though, it still seems to be functional - he can hold a wand, at least. Wanda (no pun intended - that's really my name!) From tifflblack at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 05:29:57 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:29:57 -0700 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134747 Lorrie: If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. Thanks. Tiffany: Yeah, the locket could be a horcrux, but wouldn't something have happened to Ron when he took it out for polishing on his detention? All he did was burp slugs all over it, and I thought LV usually protected his horcruxes better than that. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 25 05:03:01 2005 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:03:01 -0400 Subject: If Only Crookshanks had been around Snape//Audio Book Message-ID: <005d01c590d6$223a14c0$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 134748 Then we'd know for sure, wouldn't we!! Crookshanks can tell when someone is not what they seem. Good old Crookshanks!! ************************* I'm using the Jim Dale audio books for my re-read of HBP. And I have to say that Phineas Nigellus' voice is completely different this time around. This struck me as odd because I saw an interview with Jim Dale prior to the HBP release and he said he reviewed old tapes of each voice to make sure he did them the same as before. Just nitpicking, I guess, but the voice he used in OOTP was dead on to the personality of Phineas, and this one is, well, not. Sounds like any of his old wheezy wizard voices. Disappointed on that front. But Kreacher!!! Absolutely my favorite of the voices he does. Just hilarious with his "won't , won't won't". Got quite a kick out of it. BTW, if you're thinking about the cd's, BN has them online for $52 free shipping, or $47 and change free shipping for members. Probably won't last long, though! witherwings From bhavna at impsmanagement.com Mon Jul 25 07:58:01 2005 From: bhavna at impsmanagement.com (Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:28:01 +0530 Subject: Dumbledore Protection Spells References: <1122275434.2617.78125.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <091f01c590ee$958ba3e0$2c00a8c0@tasneem> No: HPFGUIDX 134749 A thought that occured to me while reading the book - if Harry could move after i.e. the spell binding him was broken with DD's death is it that all of DD's spells would break after his death? I mean the entire school is protected by his spells. If his death means the end of all his spells it would make Hogwarts extremely vulnerable to attack right now! Anybody have any views on this? Something that follows from this is that if the spells HAD indeed been broken - Snape would be aware of it and he had every opportunity to invite more DE into the school perhaps even LV and take over. But he didn't. I really wnt Snape to be on the good side and I may be biased in looking for hints that he really is acting on DD's orders. So if anyone could give me their views on this. Regards Bhavna India [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bunnyc at optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 25 08:12:08 2005 From: bunnyc at optusnet.com.au (bunnycollinsau) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:12:08 -0000 Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134750 From: "UNIX4EVR" Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling JKR: The "crucial and central question" of the series is why both Harry and Voldemort survived the killing curse. [Read the exact quote from World Book Day, 2004] Rowling has said we should be asking why Voldemort lived -- not Harry. Could it be that Snapes was there and somehow prevented Voldemort's death? Or does this have to do wit the horcruxes? Bunnycollins: I too am thinking that Snape was present at Godric's Hollow, however I'm tinkering with the idea that Snape didn't try to save LV, but that he tried to kill him. That LV broke a promise to Snape that he wouldn't harm Lily but when Lily was murdered, Snape's rage was so uncontrollable that at the precise moment when Voldemort was AKing Harry, Snape was AKing Voldemort. As we don't know what happens if someone performing AK is AK'd themselves, maybe it's just possible that this would explain why Harry lived, why LV was reduced to less than nothing and why the whole house was destroyed. That Snape hated LV enough to attempt to kill him would be good enough reason for DD to trust Snape so much and ofcourse DD would have been reluctant to reveal all this to Harry on the grounds that Snape only cared about saving Lily and to heck with James. Oh, and LV doesn't remember a thing about what Snape did, because the rebounding curse knocked the stuffing out of him lol. This was my first post, so please be kind. Bunnyc From deianaera at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 09:08:07 2005 From: deianaera at yahoo.com (deianaera) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:08:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134751 > auruor wrote: > > > > > just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > > > > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used > > > > several times by Slughorn. > > Blulioness replied: > > > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > > Slughorn In the course of book 6, Dumbledore: 1. Lost the use of his right hand (and possibly his right arm as well) as part of defeating the ring horcrux. 2. Drank a dozen goblets of a potion created by the most evil wizard known to his world, designed to incapaciate and/or kill the drinker. 3. Was AK'd by a man he repeatedely said he trusted beyond all doubt. 4. Was thrown off of the tallest tower at Hogwarts, landing on the ground below with twisted limbs and blood coming out of his mouth. Forgive my impertinence (as this is my first post), but I think JKR made it clear that Dumbledore is dead and there is no way to second guess this. deianaera From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 13:23:02 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:23:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Protection Spells In-Reply-To: <091f01c590ee$958ba3e0$2c00a8c0@tasneem> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )" wrote: > A thought that occured to me while reading the book - if Harry could move after i.e. the spell binding him was broken with DD's death is it that all of DD's spells would break after his death? I mean the entire school is protected by his spells. If his death means the end of all his spells it would make Hogwarts extremely vulnerable to attack right now! Tonks: I would like to think that the McG and the others would have put up new ones ASAP if they were needed. My question, which I would like JKR to answer someday, is this: In the cave and when he was flying into Hogwarts DD spoke a language that Harry did not recognize. It could not have been Parseltongue or Latin, so what was it? Are the really old spells in some form of Egyptian? Current spells are Latin, so Harry would recognize that. Any ideas?? Tonks_op From j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk Mon Jul 25 13:33:48 2005 From: j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk (Boolean) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:33:48 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134753 Boolean: One thing struck me when reading Chapter 3 of HBP again, which I hadn't properly picked up on the first time is what Dumbledore says to Petunia and Vernon about Dudley. Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the exact quote to hand (if someone could oblige...!?) but he is admonishing the Dursleys for not treating Harry as though he were their own. He then says something along the lines of, mind you, look how badly you've treated Dudley. On reading it for the first time I just assumed he was referring to his being spoilt rotten, but then I noticed that Petunia was reacting strangely and this led me to wonder if, in their all-consuming fear of all things magical, Dudley hadn't shown signs of wizardry in his early years which were covered up. Is it even feasible that they got a letter inviting Dudley to Hogwarts? I admit that it seems unlikely, I just thought DD's comment was rather cryptic...and although there's only 1 book left to go I am still holding out hope that one of the Dursleys will turn out to have magical qualities! From literature_Caro at web.de Sat Jul 23 22:06:41 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:06:41 +0200 Subject: The Cave In-Reply-To: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <000d01c58ede$f5107eb0$b8fae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <1557928170.20050724000641@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134754 CathyD/Duffypoo: > These are DD's words, spoken in the Chapter "The Cave" while he > was being force-fed potion by HP. > I can't be the only one who thinks there is more to this than > random ravings of a potion/poison drinker? Is this snippets of the > argument that DD had with Snape (overheard, partially, by Hagrid)? > Or snippets of a conversation between DD and Snape after Snape > realized what LV was going to do with the prophecy information? Well my reading is that this potion shows DD exactly what is going on in Hogwarts while being away with Harry. Then this is a monologue of DD's. I believe that this made him willing to die that "easily" because then the people in school are spared Death Eaters for they are mainly after DD. This also leads me to the idea that DD could also have casted a protective spell upon Hogwarts by sacrificeing himself. I think is possible that he considers the school to be his family (we have never been told about any other family member than his brother). So this could eventually cast a spell upon all who live in there. Caro From isis227 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:20:19 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:19 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: <42e4e241.532f3ec6.29fe.ffff9211SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> References: <42e4e241.532f3ec6.29fe.ffff9211SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <887587d405072506205737abc6@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134755 On 7/25/05, rachel wrote: > > I am intrigued by Dumbledore's withered and black hand in HBP and I am sure > that there is more to this than meets the eye. In the latter part of the > book Harry asks Dumbledore about his hand and is never given a straight > answer, in fact the book closes without a reasonable explanation of why it > happened. We do know that Snape tended to the hand (and may therefore know > all about the hunt for the horcruxes) - could this be linked to the reason > Dumbledore sacrifices himself at the end. Is it possible that when the > vessel for part of Voldermort's soul (the ring) is destroyed that the soul > fragment found a new host in the headmaster's hand, causing it to die and > decay? This would mean that he had a reason to choose death, and a reason > to ask Snape to be the one who commits the deed. After all, apart from > Voldie, only Harry, Dumbledore and Snape appear to know anything about the > Horcruxes. Hi! I'm new here (and wasn't going to post anything until next week), but I really wanted to comment like this, because, I think, if we do, in the end, find out that Dumbledore was, at the very least, aware of the fact that he would have to die, there is going to be some sort of connection to him *having* to die in order for Harry to destroy all of the Horcruxes. I think this theory above is one of the good examples of what may be the situation-- we never do find out what really happened to his hand (except for the quick thinking of Professor Snape-- hardly the story we are led to believe exists throughout the book). The other theory that I have is that there is something to that potion that Dumbledore drank in the cave, and Horcruxes-- something will come with that. I keep thinking that if that was just a trap, then the whole trip into the cave was virtually for nothing (considering the locket that is supposed to be the horcrux wasn't even there). JKR talked about how Sirius' death was just senseless, and shows that sometimes there is no reason for death. I find it difficult for her to use the same type of example with yet another character readers love. I just can't get over the fact that Dumbledore's death has to be *essential* to the resolution of the books (i.e., if he did not die, Harry could not defeat Voldemort)-- I just don't know what that reason is yet :-). The one thing I keep thinking (farfetched as it is) is, perhaps the liquid itself was a horcrux, and therefore, Dumbledore had to die to destroy that Horcrux (which would mean there are only 3 out there for Harry to get...) Any thoughts? I'm pretty sure we'll be waiting at least 2 years to find out!! -Isis From kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 13:21:31 2005 From: kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com (another_potter_fan) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:21:31 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134756 "> > Anyone see any loopholes? I hope so..." OK, this is my first post, so be gentle.... Possible Loophole: Remember in Order of the Pheonix, when the battle is raging in the Ministry? Harry hits Bellatrix with the Crucius (sp?)curse, only it doesn't affect her the way it should, and she says something to the effect of 'You've got to mean it if you're going to do it." (I don't have my book here at work, but I looked it up at home and it's page 810 of the US soft cover version). Anyway, here's my theory: DD knew someone was trying to kill him. DD knew he could only trust Snape, so he allowed Snape to use the AK curse, but WITHOUT the intent to kill DD (again, you have to mean it). By faking his death, DD accomplishes several key points: 1) LV lets down his guard, and my even come into the open; 2) DD is no longer tied to the school, but is free to pursue the remaining Horcruxes; 3) Since both Harry and DD have left the school, LV would no longer be interested in penetrating the school, thus leaving the remaining students safer (subject to debate since DD is no longer protecting them, but DD shows a lot of trust in his friends). Thoughts? another_potter_fan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 13:44:06 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:44:06 -0000 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Next, even though Dumbledore says that Life Debt is magic at it's > deepest, I'm more inclined to think it is nature at it's deepest. True there is an essense of magic there but it's not in the form of cast spells and enchantments. Tonks: I also wonder if it involves an enemy. If you save the life of someone that is not your friend, but someone that you hate, maybe that has a special magic of its own. The love of enemy sort of thing. I don't think that it means that you have to place your own life in danger to do it either. Harry was not in danger when he spared Wormtail, as it was when he was in the chamber with Ginny. Ginny was a friend; he would have helped her out of love for a friend. But Wormtail's case was the highest form of Love. Harry spared the life of someone who was partly responsible for the death of his parents and may have deserved to die. That is very high magick indeed. I was very surprised by that at the time, coming as it was from such a young person. It showed a degree of wisdom and maturity that most adults don't even have. Tonks_op From isis227 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:28:21 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:28:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The most important point per JK Rowling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887587d405072506287e8f92ea@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134758 From: "UNIX4EVR" > Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling > > JKR: The "crucial and central question" of the series is why both > Harry and Voldemort survived the killing curse. [Read the exact quote > from World Book Day, 2004] > > Rowling has said we should be asking why Voldemort lived -- not > Harry. Could it be that Snapes was there and somehow prevented > Voldemort's death? > > Or does this have to do wit the horcruxes? My impression was that this has to do with the Horcruxes-- the hint here is that we need to find out the reason Voldemort lived when hit with the rebounding AK. We know (sort of) the reason Harry lived was because of his mother's love/sacrifice for him. Now, we know the reason that Voldemort lived-- because he had split his soul into 7 pieces using the Horcruxes. When the AK hit him, it destroyed his body, but not his soul because it was in the horcruxes. Here's my question-- when people get AKd, their bodies don't disappear, right? So, where did Voldemort's body go? (Didn't they find James and Lily's bodies in the rubble? They certainly found Harry's). That leads me to either believe there is more at work here than just the horcruxes, OR, someone was there to carry Voldemort's body away... -Isis From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Jul 25 13:40:39 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:40:39 -0000 Subject: Sparing Lily (was: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?") In-Reply-To: <200.647a8bb.30161039@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: A small supporting point ... at the end of OotP LV talks about > Lily's death and is scornful about how unnecessary and silly it > was ... it would be a gross overstatement to say he regrets killing > her, but he doesn't seem to relish her death or to have been > pleased with it. Why not? Because her death had > consequences he didn't like. One nasty consequence of her > death is that Harry is protected, but another is that he loses one > of his most trusted servants, the one who in GoF he says "will > never return." I thought the one who would never return was Karkaroff, who was killed, as LV said he would be. I think it is clear now that Snape was the "faithful servant at Hogwarts" (though I am in the camp that thinks Snape is still on the good side, depite appearances). I think LV was sneering about Lily's death both because her death had consequences he didn't like and because he simply doesn't understand love, especially the type of love that would cause one person to sacrifice their life for another. Being that he is so afraid of death, this is inconceivable and he thinks Lily is silly for willingly giving her life. I do question why LV gave Lily the choice...it seems that LV gave Lily the chance to get out of the way. This seems unlike LV. He doesn't seem to care who he kills (i.e. "kill the spare")and it seems he would have blasted Lily unless there was some reason not to....so perhaps he did make a promise to someone (Snape?) not to kill her. Cheryl From isis227 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:34:28 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:34:28 -0400 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: <42e4e9c3.08e72735.218a.73aaSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> References: <42e4e9c3.08e72735.218a.73aaSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <887587d405072506343f00d718@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134760 On 7/25/05, Tiffany Black wrote: > > Tiffany: > Yeah, the locket could be a horcrux, but wouldn't something have happened > to > Ron when he took it out for polishing on his detention? All he did was burp > slugs all over it, and I thought LV usually protected his horcruxes better > than that. I don't have my books with me right now, but isn't there supposed to be a snake on the locket (at least the one that Voldemort allegedly made into a Horcrux? I can't remember, but was the locket that wouldn't open (in OOTP) described as having a snake on it? That seems to be a defining point, and I can't see it being left out of the description... I still think that it is pretty coincidental that this was there, so I'm leaning towards it being the locket in question... -Isis From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:53:31 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:53:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134761 Eggplant wrote: > Snape sure didn't seem very reluctant to me, hate was etched on every > line of his face as he killed Dumbledore the instant he walked into > the room. And Dumbledore would be nuts not to tell Harry about this > crazy plan, he must understand Harry well enough by now to know that > he would dedicate his life to killing Snape if he murdered his > headmaster in front of his very eyes. As it is I wouldn't be surprised > if in Harry's mind killing Snape now had an even higher priority than > killing Voldemort; and if that was part of Dumbledore's grand plan it > doesn't seem like a very good plan. I concur. To clarify, I'm actually still holding out judgment on Snape; I just can't decide on this one, not even after 2.5 readings of HBP. However, I certainly am leaning towards ESE!Snape just because of Harry and his personality [as I view it]. In literary terms, a "saving people thing" is always coupled with a "ridiculous guilt complex" thing. Therefore, if Snape is to be good, I can't see how he would convey that to Harry, who is utterly convinced of Snape's guilt. Because I also see how killing Snape might top killing Voldemort on Harry's current list of priorities, I have to question how Harry is going to feel when (if) he finds out that Snape was on the side of light. Harry would endure immense guilt for the rest of his life, made all the worse because he alone could never see any good in Snape. However, this guilt is absolved if Snape is to be ESE. (I'm not saying Harry wouldn't feel guilt if he had to kill, but I am saying that he will not feel life-altering, depression-inducing guilt.) In addition, I cannot forgive that Dumbledore could so short-sighted as to not directly tell Harry of this plan, if this was truly a plan. (Despite the fact that he may have left some evidence to prove Snape's innocence, Dumbledore must have understood that Harry would still always view Snape in contempt because, regardless of the reason, Snape did deliver the killing blow to Dumbledore, and Harry won't abide by that.) In short, what I'm saying is that, while I'm still holding judgment on Snape, I tend to see towards ESE!Snape because of the literary tradition as well Harry's personality [as I see it]. ~Ali PS Just how is Snape being ESE make him less interesting of a character? I've seen it said; I just don't understand. I think he's going to be even more fascinating if he does turn out to be on Voldemort's side. From isis227 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:45:05 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:45:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887587d405072506455500053a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134762 On 7/25/05, Boolean wrote: > Boolean: > Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the exact quote to hand (if > someone could oblige...!?) but he is admonishing the Dursleys for not > treating Harry as though he were their own. He then says something > along the lines of, mind you, look how badly you've treated Dudley. On > reading it for the first time I just assumed he was referring to his > being spoilt rotten, but then I noticed that Petunia was reacting > strangely and this led me to wonder if, in their all-consuming fear of > all things magical, Dudley hadn't shown signs of wizardry in his early > years which were covered up. Is it even feasible that they got a letter > inviting Dudley to Hogwarts? Interesting-- I didn't read it that either, but now that you say it, it makes a lot of sense. And, we still haven't found out who JKR has said will develop magical powers later in life. I also think it will be one of the Dursleys (I mean, if it is one of the characters we have already met-- and JKR said that we have met all of the major characters, it's down to a Dursley or Filch, right??) -Isis From hambtty at triad.rr.com Mon Jul 25 13:55:37 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:55:37 -0000 Subject: JKR on the pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134763 I found it very interesting when JKR was asked about the memories in the pensieve, she said that when one enters the pensieve they can move around the memory and make their own conclusions. The memory contains everything that happened not just the interpretation from the person who gave the memory. Harry will learn to use DD's pensieve in the next book. There is so much to be learned there. He may view the memory that made DD trust Snape. He will experience it as one who hates Snape and will see what his heart wants him to see. Then he will revisit it trying to discover where DD went wrong and may come to a completely different conclusion in the end. Harry has a memory of the night his parents were killed and he will use the pensieve to view it as a man instead of as a baby. Maybe this is when he realizes that Hagrid took him to Spinners End and Snape hid him while DD made arrangements for Harry to go to the Dursley's. From JodyE50 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 13:42:32 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:42:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore Protection Spells Message-ID: <64.599338cd.30164648@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134764 bhavna at impsmanagement.com writes: > A thought that occured to me while reading the book - if Harry could > move after i.e. the spell binding him was broken with DD's death is > it that all of DD's spells would break after his death? I think that DD was actively maintaining the spell that was binding Harry, so that upon his death, Harry was freed. However, if every wizard's spells ended upon his/her death, there would be absolute chaos in the wizarding world. I think that there are all kinds of spells, some of which need to be held by force of will, such as the binding spell, and others, which, once they are cast just remain until the wizard or somebody else gives the counter spell. Jody From isis227 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 13:24:38 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:24:38 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887587d40507250624720ab311@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134765 > > > auruor wrote: > > > > > > > just a wild idea, does any one else think that Dumbleore > > > > > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used > > > > > several times by Slughorn. > > > > Blulioness replied: > > > > > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > > > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > > > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > > > Slughorn > I really liked this theory when I first read it-- but, wasn't Slughorn there in the end of the book when they were all around discussing Dumbledore's death? I remember him saying that he had Snape as one of his students... -Isis From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 13:57:51 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:57:51 -0000 Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > Let's call this one SMUD--Snape Merely Unstoppers Death. > > I've been thinking about Snape's first speech to his new Potions class > in PS/SS. Snape told the students he could teach them to "stopper > death." We've debated on what that means and how it might come > to be used in the series, mostly in terms of perhaps keeping Harry > alive at some point. But what if this stoppering of death has already > happened, and the recipient was Dumbledore? > > > Dumbledore's plan, begun before the start of the book, and > revised as needed, has worked, and everything is in place for > Book Seven, where the plan will continue to unfold. If the plan > is sucessful, Harry will live, Voldemort will be destroyed, and > Snape--dead or alive--will be vindicated and redeemed. (And > I have no doubt the plan will ultimately succeed--the fun will > be in discovering the specifics.) > > As a final note, this theory also releases Snape from any blame > in Dumbledore's death, since Snape doesn't actually kill Dumbledore. > He simply releases him from the protection of the Stopper Death > potion, and nature then takes its course. I know it's a fine line- - > especially if Dumbledore could remain alive indefinitely. But would > Dumbledore even want to stay alive under such artificial means, > especially when Death is just the next great adventure to him? > I think he would have allowed Death to take him earlier, if it weren't > for his need to secure Harry's future. > > And that's it. I may be way offbase (no doubt I am), but it could work! > > Julie > (Dumbledorephile and Snapophile) > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I think you certainly may be onto something here. It seems there are still two basic camps regarding Snape. The first camp sees Snape as evil, a true death eater, and his AK and hatred for DD were genuine. The second camp sees Snape as continuing his role as double agent for DD, that he is essentially good, and that he and DD had his death planned somehow, and your hypothesis is just as good as any thus far. Plus, it ties in a small piece of information from PS/SS, which JKR is so fond of doing. It was obvious to me that the death scene on the astronomy tower was contrived by DD. If DD did not know that Snape would be looking out for Draco, why would he have frozen Harry under that cloak to watch the whole scene unfold? Why would he not have let Harry continue with his mission to get Snape? I think DD knew that Snape would be appearing in that tower. Enters the two opinions of Snape. Given that we readers do not know the true allegiance of Snape and whether or not DD was fooled, the motivations of the characters at this point are left to speculation. DD could have frozen Harry so that Harry could see that, despite what he had been telling him for six years, Snape really cannot be trusted and he really is a DE. On the other hand, DD could have frozen Harry to see this part of his plan so Snape would be solidly in the De camp and not suspicioned by them or LV to be a spy for DD. If this is the case, Snape truly is going on alone from this point. Again, if this is the case, then my hat is off to Severus Snape and his incredibly demonstration of strength of character. However, JKR has fooled me before... Julie - who eagerly awaits the second book but not getting two years older! From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 13:59:43 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:59:43 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tamuril elensar" wrote: > > Barb, quoting Mike Feemster: > > 23) Hermione hugs Ron when the trio thinks that Buckbeak is > > executed.<<< > > Am I the only one who wasnt suprised at all about the Ron and > Hermione relationship? This has been so obivous since book 4 and even > in the movies since the 2nd one -- CoS -- when Hermione hugs Harry at > the end of the movie and her and Ron awkardly shake hands. > > I think that JK did a good here -- she grew R and Her together -- and > I can see perfectly why they would get together. The only > relationship I felt weird on was Harry and Ginny and not because I > can't see them together but it did seem rushed. I do think Ginny has > been developing in the books since CoS... from the beginning you can > see she's outgoing in SS when she's the first Weasley Harry really > hears speak. It seems like it should be a match -- Harry loves the > Weasleys -- why wouldn't he fall in love with a female Weasley.. it > just seemed odd that suddenly Ginny is the hot girl at school -- and > just so cool. And then Harry gets her scent when he smells the love > potion. It was like->huh? Since when does Harry like Ginny... but I > guess it works enough for the most part. > > Tamuril No, you're not. I'm not a shipper by any stretch of the imagination, but I have suspected this pairing since they met on the train the very first time. From adatole.301453 at bloglines.com Mon Jul 25 14:03:22 2005 From: adatole.301453 at bloglines.com (Leon Adato) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:03:22 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134768 First, a long time ago in an interview, JKR mentioned that someone does perform magic very late in life, but that it was quite rare. It's already been speculated that this late bloomer could be Dudley or even Petunia. On jkrowling.com (I think, otherwise it's the latest Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview), she answers the question about why Dumbledore's howler said "remember my last" instead of "remember my letter" - alluding to the fact that there has been more than 1 letter to Petunia (the original note that came with Harry). So my money is on Dudley being a wizard, and that factoring into the storyline in book 7. Leon --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Boolean" wrote: > Boolean: > One thing struck me when reading Chapter 3 of HBP again, which I hadn't > properly picked up on the first time is what Dumbledore says to Petunia > and Vernon about Dudley. > > Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the exact quote to hand (if > someone could oblige...!?) but he is admonishing the Dursleys for not > treating Harry as though he were their own. He then says something > along the lines of, mind you, look how badly you've treated Dudley. On > reading it for the first time I just assumed he was referring to his > being spoilt rotten, but then I noticed that Petunia was reacting > strangely and this led me to wonder if, in their all-consuming fear of > all things magical, Dudley hadn't shown signs of wizardry in his early > years which were covered up. Is it even feasible that they got a letter > inviting Dudley to Hogwarts? > > I admit that it seems unlikely, I just thought DD's comment was rather > cryptic...and although there's only 1 book left to go I am still > holding out hope that one of the Dursleys will turn out to have magical > qualities! From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 14:07:33 2005 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:07:33 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Boolean" wrote: > Boolean: > One thing struck me when reading Chapter 3 of HBP again, which I hadn't > properly picked up on the first time is what Dumbledore says to Petunia > and Vernon about Dudley. > > Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the exact quote to hand (if > someone could oblige...!?) but he is admonishing the Dursleys for not > treating Harry as though he were their own. He then says something > along the lines of, mind you, look how badly you've treated Dudley. On > reading it for the first time I just assumed he was referring to his > being spoilt rotten, but then I noticed that Petunia was reacting > strangely and this led me to wonder if, in their all-consuming fear of > all things magical, Dudley hadn't shown signs of wizardry in his early > years which were covered up. Is it even feasible that they got a letter > inviting Dudley to Hogwarts? > > I admit that it seems unlikely, I just thought DD's comment was rather > cryptic...and although there's only 1 book left to go I am still > holding out hope that one of the Dursleys will turn out to have magical > qualities! In the NBC interview the Monday after HBP was released, Katie Couric asked JKR a question on behalf of a six year old. He wanted to know if Petunia had magical powers and that is why Harry was entrusted to the Dursley's care. JKR semed impressed that the question came from a young child and said that he should " continue to explore along From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Mon Jul 25 14:06:12 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:06:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death/Oho! In-Reply-To: <887587d40507250624720ab311@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134770 auror wrote: > saying "oho" in the cave was unusual. It is an expression used several times by Slughorn. Isis wrote: > I really liked this theory when I first read it-- but, wasn't Slughorn > there in the end of the book when they were all around discussing > Dumbledore's death? I remember him saying that he had Snape as one of his students... Filch also says "oho!" at one point in this book, so I think it is a common expression. Slughorn and Filch (who it couldn't have been anyway) were both there at the end of the book after DD's death. Cheryl From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 14:15:27 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:15:27 -0000 Subject: JKR on the pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > Harry has a memory of the night his parents were killed and he will > use the pensieve to view it as a man instead of as a baby. Maybe this > is when he realizes that Hagrid took him to Spinners End and Snape hid > him while DD made arrangements for Harry to go to the Dursley's. That Harry can access his own memory occurred to me too, though I'm sure in his position it would be a truly traumatic thing to do. I hope he takes Ron in there with him. Therefore, we don't actually need another person to have been at GH to tell Harry what happened. However, also in the interview JKR implied that there might have been an extra person/s there. I liked the Spinners End bit, good try! but geography is against it. Spinners End is in a mill town. The description is very much of the cities of the North of England, particularly around Leeds and Manchester. Hagrid mentions flying over Bristol, which is in the South West of England and the Dursleys live near London in the South East. Hence, if Hagrid was taking Harry from the North to the Dursleys, he would have to go round 2 sides of a triangle in order to fly over Bristol!! However, a route from South Wales to the Dursley's could easily fly over Bristol. Saraquel From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 14:25:56 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:25:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: <1062520548.20050725004211@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134772 Dave wrote: > Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was > Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory > (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle > husband shouts at her zgirnius speculates: Assuming that the man and woman were Snape's parents, and that the scene was a "typical" scene: I'm not an expert of the subject, but there is definitely something about the psychology of domestic abuse where the abused partner in the relationship does not act in a "rational" manner. They feel they deserve it, they depend so much on the relationship they are not willing to risk it by defending themselves, etc. In a certain (small) percentage of abusive RL relationships, it is even the woman who abuses the man, who despite his greater natural physical strength does not fight back. If this is Eileen, her reactions may be in line with this sort of syndrome- despite her magical abilities she does not use them to protect herself from her husband. We could speculate Eileen "drew the line" at letting Tobias abuse young Severus, though...maybe she taught him all sort of hexes and jinxes at an early age for this reason? (Consistent with JKR's assertion that Snape was loved by someone at some time...) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 14:28:28 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? Message-ID: <19a.386a9fdb.3016510c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134773 Vivamus wrote: > . . . instead of just pouring it out on the ground? > > Did that puzzle anyone else? Ray's take on the whoel issue. 1. Just as Harry couldn't conjure a goblet of water, the potion cannot be spilled, it must be imbibed. 2. RAB's little joke would have been ruined if the locket was just sitting in the bowl, os he (or she) replaced the potion. 2A. It probably never occurred to RAB that someone *other than Voldemort* would be after the Horcruxes. 3. The potion in the bowl tortures the imbiber by reviving their worst memories, or perhaps a litany of everything they've ever done which they considr a mistake. 4. It wasn't the potion in the bowl that poisoned DD, it was the goblet of water from the lake. DD wanted Snape to identify and counteract the poison. 5. When it became clear that DD was suffering severe ill effects from the potion, why didn't Harry stick a bezoar down his throat? (I know he didn't have one with him, but are you saying that "Accio Bezoar!" wouldn't have worked in Hogsmeade?) -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 14:34:01 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:34:01 -0000 Subject: What would happen if you AK'd a dead body? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134774 Lots of people have pointed out that what happened when Snape AK'd Dumbledore on the tower was not your standard result. I've already got a theory that Dumbledore was "hosting" Voldemort after the visit to the cave - that he himself became the Horcrux. What was happening to Dumbledore from the return to Hogsmeade and then the trip back to Hogwarts? He seemed to be *rapidly* weakening - Amycus says "He's not long for this world," and it seems possible to me that Dumbledore was actually dying as they stood on the tower. Even just during the conversation with Draco, he became so weak he couldn't stand anymore. I wonder if at the last moment, his soul was leaving, and if all that was left was the parasitic Voldemort still in his body. His last words are to Snape, and Harry definitely says that he is *pleading*. Well, as everyone agrees, Dumbledore would NEVER plead for his life...but I'll bet Voldemort would. Faced with death, I think Voldemort would do or say ANYTHING. So maybe what we heard wasn't Dumbledore pleading with Snape either to save him, OR to carry out a previous agreement. Maybe it was Voldemort pleading with Severus to save him, and Snape's revulsion and hatred was his reaction to that. Maybe that's why Dumbledore didn't look like he'd been AK'd - because by the time the spell hit his body, he was already gone. Wanda From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 14:31:16 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:31:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > Dave wrote: > > Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum was > > Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's memory > > (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle > > husband shouts at her > > zgirnius speculates: SNIP >. If this > is Eileen, her reactions may be in line with this sort of syndrome- > despite her magical abilities she does not use them to protect > herself from her husband. > > We could speculate Eileen "drew the line" at letting Tobias abuse > young Severus, though...maybe she taught him all sort of hexes and > jinxes at an early age for this reason? (Consistent with JKR's > assertion that Snape was loved by someone at some time...) I like this theory a lot. That Eileen loved & protected her son from abuse by teaching him a bit of the dark arts. That would explain why he knew so much about them when he started school. What I hate is the speculation that she, herself, was evil and nasty. Just because someone is plain or "sullen looking" doesn't mean they are evil people. Her sullen expression could mean a lot of things - she could have had bad teeth and didn't want to smile because of that.... I still think that she died when Snape was a young boy - maybe just before he started Hogwarts or shortly afterwards. That is the love he lost. But those are my wild speculations :) colebiancardi From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 14:53:26 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725145326.82889.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134776 --- wickywackywoo2001 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > I don't believe we can judge from this very > incomplete scene that > Snape's father was an abuser. I never automatically > grant absolution > to women, even if they're crying. > > Wanda But the term used is "cowering" and that implies fear. Fear leads one to think of abuse. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 13:29:03 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:29:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable Vow (Snape and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <333195775.20050725152903@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134777 > zgirnius now: > This of course would mean there is a third person who knows about the > UV (who would have had to play the same role as Bella played in Snape > and Cissy's UV). My two best guesses for these hypothetical folks > might be McGonagall or Hagrid. Both seemed especially confident in > Dumbledore's judgement regarding Snape. Caro: My I add somebody who really may come into account for this? Aberforth Dumbledore. He is so far in the background and still one of the most important characters concerning the prophecy (he discovered Snape and being Albus' brother he was a semi-undercover agent for the Order of the Phoenix for sure (he was on the photo Mood had with him in OOP)). It would not make me wonder if Aberforth knew the whole story of Snape's remorse and the whole argument because almost no one knows he is in the Order he can be a very helpful person in hiding secrets his brother must talk over to decide. Hagrid for me is ruled out because when this supposed UV was made Hagrid still was sentenced for releasing the Monster of Slytherin. DD knew that Hagrid, for being expelled in his third year, would get into big trouble because he was not allowed to do any magic (e.g. PS: when Hagrid takes Harry to Diagon Alley he says the he is supposed not to do any magic). DD never would have caused one of the most loyal fellows trouble because a spell must be done. McGonagall is not on my list for the "iron-clad reason for trusting Snape" DD hinted her (HBP ch. "The Phoenix' Lament). She might have known some more than the others but still not all. It seems to me that she is in a conflict she would not have been if she was the one to testify the UV. Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 13:49:48 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:49:48 +0200 Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <141874037.20050725154948@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134778 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "UNIX4EVR" wrote: >> Rowling has said we should be asking why Voldemort lived -- not >> Harry. Could it be that Snapes was there and somehow prevented >> Voldemort's death? >> >> Or does this have to do with the horcruxes? By the way? How many people do you need to split your soul? Is it only you and the one you kill or another person like you need one for an UV? Then Snape could have been ordered to perform it and afterwards found out who was killed (remember that even though Voldemort knew where the Potters hid he could not tell anybody for the secret was still kept by Wormtail!). Caro From lfreeman at mbc.edu Mon Jul 25 14:59:32 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:59:32 -0400 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134779 It seems the best way would be to find a Dementor, throw it to him and yell "Fetch!" The difficulty with RAB is not just finding someone with the right initials, but someone who 1) knows Voldy was using Horcruxes and 2) is on par with DD, wizarding wise. Any speculation on whether the locket was swapped recently, or years ago? From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Jul 25 15:00:17 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:17 -0000 Subject: 12 uses of Dragon's blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134780 aussie: Hmmm, 12 uses of Dragon's blood ... sounds like something a Potions Professor would know ... and not ALL potions professors, but more likely, one that worked with DD many years ago, for many years ... is it a coincidence that Slughorn joined Hogwarts staff? the same Slughorn that taught Lilly & Snape, Arthur & Molly, and even Tom Riddle? Horace Slughorn has a lot of information just waiting for Harry to tap into. Information on Horcruxes, Dragon's Blood (that he splashed on the wall), and what the heck all that Aragog venom is good (or bad) for Slughorn plus the HBP text book could help end LV by Chapter 12 next book ... JKR better keep them away from Harry for a while to draw out our enjoyment ;) -aussie- From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 13:44:27 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:44:27 +0200 Subject: In Essense Divided In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65859365.20050725154427@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134781 Rachel: > At the time we thought the line was refering to the fact that Vodie had > transfered some of his powers to Harry. Could this b used to infer > that each of the horcruxes may contain a small sampling of Voldemorts > powers? could Harry "collect" these and use them against voldie, or is > there maybe a condition that "brother" horcruxes cannot do battle > against themselves. > So many question, so long to wait! I think that they can as proven in PS for the fist time if you assume that Harry is a Horcrux which I think he is. An example that came to me some days ago might provide proof: The dream Harry had after he got sorted out for Griffindor in PS. There he dreamt that he wore Quirrel's turban and that this tired to convince him to join the house of Slytherin. Harry tried to pull it off but did not succeed. It even wrapped itself even more tighter around his head. Could this turban be a personification of the piece of soul Harry bears within him? For sure a piece of a Slytherin ancestor's would try to go where its "home" is, especially because DD says in HBP that Hogwarts always meant something special to Voldemort. So harry tried to clear himself of some kind of parasite which he could not get rid of. What about that? Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 14:05:14 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:05:14 +0200 Subject: Why did Snape react so angrily to being called a 'Coward' ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1867582688.20050725160514@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134782 I am in the camp "there is at least some good within Snape and he had a bond to DD based on true respect and freindship". So this one and only situation (Harry chasing Snape is the only little moment when he could live out the pain and all the guilt he felt because within a moment he would face Voldemort and then he had to shut them all away. And at home there is Wormtail and I really do believe that this guy was ordered to overlook Snape and spy on him for Voldemort, who does not trust Snape. This pain can be seen in the HPB (ch. Flight of the Prince): "DON'T -" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - "CALL ME COWARD!" Caro From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 14:25:07 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:25:07 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050725034359.79498.qmail@web54709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134783 Melanie: And you probably don't think Draco will be redeemed and is probably getting killed right now, don't you? Here is thing I understand the logic and I hate Snape I do...but the thing is I can't handle him being evil it's just not fair! ----- No actually... I don't. That would be the opposite of what I wrote above... the point being that you belived DD in the books thinking Snape was innocent. Turns out we may have thought wrong. In the case of Draco, the reader is pretty convinced he is evil.. and unfeeling. Seeing him crying in the bathroom is surprising and seeing him with DD in the end may be surprising too -- I wasn't too surprised there only becuase he is 16 -- murder you would hope would come more difficult to him. Robyn From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 15:10:12 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:10:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134784 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Dave Hardenbrook (Message 134721): > Okay -- We now know that Snape's father was a Muggle and his mum >was Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team. So why in Snape's >memory(_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her >Muggle husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering >git into a yak)? Is it possibly Tom and Merope redux, and Snape Sr. >is about to desert the family? Or are these not the people we >assume they are? "Sharon" I've always wondered about that scene. Do we know for sure that >it's his parents at all? "K": I believe JKR is speaking through Harry at this point. I know Harry can be wrong at times (seldom, it now seems) but the author has to give us information in some fashion and the Pensieve and the reaction of Harry is one of those ways. ~Harry did not speak; he felt that to say anything might be dangerous. He was sure had had just broken into Snape's memories, that he had just seen scenes from Snape's childhood, and it was unnerving to think that the crying little boy who had watched his parents shouting was actually standing in front of him with such loathing in his eyes oop-ch 26-pg 592-scholastic "K" From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 15:22:00 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:22:00 -0000 Subject: 12 uses of Dragon's blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > aussie: > Hmmm, 12 uses of Dragon's blood ... > > sounds like something a Potions Professor would know ... > > and not ALL potions professors, but more likely, one that worked > with DD many years ago, for many years ... > > is it a coincidence that Slughorn joined Hogwarts staff? > > the same Slughorn that taught Lilly & Snape, Arthur & Molly, and > even Tom Riddle? > > Horace Slughorn has a lot of information just waiting for Harry to > tap into. Jen: We keep hoping, don't we? "Surely," I told myself before HBP, "this will be the one to finally explore the 12 uses of dragon blood." But no. I think DRIBBLE and DRIBBLE SHADOWS could still play, theorizing Hagrid/Snape/DD concocted a potion including dragon blood that provided some type of protection for Harry. It also rendered his eyesight weak b/c of the effects of dragon blood. (See posts # 83354 & 128717). Barring that, we're supposed to learn more about Dumbledore in Book 7, no? JKR promised theorizing about his family would be a fruitful line of enquiry. So back to the drawing board. Perhaps Slughorn will help the NEWT students brew an interesting potion using dragon blood. Whether Harry will be around to learn it is the question. I'm wondering from JKR's past history of introducing characters for only one book if Slughorn hasn't already fulfilled his purpose and will drop below the radar in Book 7. Jen From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 15:10:32 2005 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:10:32 -0000 Subject: The most important point per JK Rowling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134786 Bunnycollins: That LV broke a promise to Snape that he > wouldn't harm Lily but when Lily was murdered, Snape's rage was so > uncontrollable that at the precise moment when Voldemort was AKing > Harry, Snape was AKing Voldemort. I don't know about this one...... I really think that if Snape had tried to AK Voldemort there is NO way that V would have ever trusted Snape again. I think V would have killed him immediately after seeing him upon his return. Robyn From hermystheories at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 15:14:33 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:14:33 -0700 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134787 Tonks: > I also wonder if it involves an enemy. If you save the life of > someone that is not your friend, but someone that you hate, maybe > that has a special magic of its own. The love of enemy sort of > thing. > I always assumed it was something along these lines. Or perhaps the fact that Wormtail probably deserved to die, but Harry saved him anyway. While reading everyone's posts about the life debt, I am constantly reminded of The Fellowship of the Ring, where Gandalf explains to Frodo, many who deserve death live, and vice versa. It takes a lot more courage and pure-heartedness to save someone you hate, someone who has caused you great pain and suffering, than to save your innocent frient. Thus the guilty person is more indebted to you. --Mrs. HS ----- Gmail is fantastic for sorting through the 80-bajillion emails per day I get from HPforGrownUps. Email me privately if you'd like an invite. From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 15:37:50 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:37:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's biggest fear/Person coming to magic late in life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134788 Lasp1x said: > Secondly, I wanted to bring up the question of the person who came > into magic late in life. I have mentioned my opinion of this at > Fiction Alley but am curious enough about it to also bring it up > here. HP fans are known for over analyzing, I do it myself all the > time. But could the person who comes into magic late in life be as > simple as being Merope? We are told by Dumbledore that she couldn't > do magic until she left the Gaunt house and her father also calls her > a squib. I'd forgotten all about that statement of hers. Yeah, I totally agree that the person is Merope. I wonder *why* she couldn't do magic until she left the house. Was it because she wasn't very good at it to begin with, or perhaps her family was so overbearing that she was afraid to try? And if she never did magic, does that mean she didn't attend Hogwarts? (Although I don't imagine for a second the rest of the family did, either.) --azriona From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 15:40:15 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:40:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's biggest fear/Person coming to magic late in life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134789 Lasplx: > I don't post here very often as I never really see much need with > so many great theories and ideas being thrown around but I don't > believe I have seen the subject of Snape's biggest fear mentioned > since HBP in detail, so I thought I would share my theory. I > believe that Snape's biggest fear is people using his own magic > against him. > Notice how Snape didn't get all that angry when Harry tried to use > Sectumsempra but the minute he went to utter the spell James > Potter had used against him, Snape lost it. It was too close to > what Jk Rowling calls Snape's worst memory. Jen: Maybe his greatest rage rather than greatest fear? He never appears fearful in any of these scenes. He could be covering his fear with rage, but I thought the whole point of a boggart experience is that it renders you helpless in the face of fear. Even Dumbledore was literally brought to his knees drinking that potion and facing what I believe was his greatest fear. JKR indicates we see his greatest fear in Book 6 and that scene seems the most likely moment. The only time we've ever seen Snape appear vulnerable was when Harry used Voldemort's name during Occlumency. When he unconciously touched his Dark Mark while muttering about LV's power. His greatest fear is being discovered by Voldemort and facing his wrath. He would be the only person (we know of) who successfully fooled Voldemort for many years. Hoo-boy, wouldn't want to face the rage LV would feel about being made the fool. Jen From npod4291 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 15:13:52 2005 From: npod4291 at yahoo.com (npod4291) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:13:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: <887587d405072506205737abc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134790 Isis wrote: JKR talked about how Sirius' death was just senseless, and shows that > sometimes there is no reason for death. I find it difficult for her > to use the same type of example with yet another character readers > love. I just can't get over the fact that Dumbledore's death has to > be *essential* to the resolution of the books (i.e., if he did not > die, Harry could not defeat Voldemort)-- I just don't know what that > reason is yet :-). The one thing I keep thinking (farfetched as it > is) is, perhaps the liquid itself was a horcrux, and therefore, > Dumbledore had to die to destroy that Horcrux (which would mean there > are only 3 out there for Harry to get...) I think that you are right in that DD died so that Harry could Defeat LV, but I don't think that it had anything to do with the Horcruxes, or at least I don't think that it HAD to (I believe it might, but not necessarily, I could go either way on that.) I think that DD died for Harry's own self-confidence. I know I've said this another post, but I'm almost positive that this has to be a reason. DD had to die or Harry would never stand completely on his own two feet. He would alwats lean on DD for support and to save him when things go downhill. -Nate From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Mon Jul 25 15:29:08 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:29:08 -0000 Subject: Why Did DD Drink the Contents of the Bowl? In-Reply-To: <19a.386a9fdb.3016510c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134791 Ray wrote: > It wasn't the potion in the bowl that poisoned DD, it was the goblet of > water from the lake. > and: are you saying that "Accio Bezoar!" wouldn't have worked > in Hogsmeade?) Firstly it does not say that Dumbledore drank the lake water but that Harry tipped it over him and he started to revive when this happened. Secondly we know that an 'accio' spell works within Hogwarts grounds because Harry used it in the first task in GoF to get his broomstick, so, yes, why did he not 'accio' a bezoar? Well, I think it was a confusing time for him. Here he has his headmaster practically dying in front of his eyes and all DD keeps saying is 'get Snape, get Snape'. I'm not sure I would have been quick thinking enough to get a bezoar. Wapp13 From maggyshannon at cox.net Mon Jul 25 15:35:27 2005 From: maggyshannon at cox.net (Maggy Shannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:35:27 -0400 Subject: Slughorn's age when taking Felix Felicis potion References: <1122299097.2307.55253.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <42E506BE.E509F1A2@cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134792 I wonder if anyone has considered that the age at which Professor Slug took the Felix Felicis potion might be a clue? At the bottom of page 187 (US edition) Slughorn says he took the potion at age 24 and at age 57. The precision seems to call attention to itself. The two occasions are approximately 28 years apart. Voldemort fell ca. 1981, and going by JKR's statement that Snape was "about 36" when the series opens (1991), his date of birth would be ca. 1955. This would also be close to the birth year of the Maurauders, who we know were in Snape's year in school. The gap between the birth of Snape and the Maurauders and the fall of Voldemort roughtly corresponds to the gap between Slughorn's two uses of Felix Felicis. Since we know from the memory of telling Riddle about horcruxes that Slughorne will lie, can it be possible that he lies when he says that the days he took Felix Felicis were normal, ordinary days? Can the ages at which Slughorne took the potion be a clue? Pax, Maggy Macon, Georgia, US From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 15:45:59 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:45:59 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134793 Smortone said: (I think it was smartone - it was unsigned, so hard to tell) > In the NBC interview the Monday after HBP was released, Katie Couric > asked JKR a question on behalf of a six year old. He wanted to know > if Petunia had magical powers and that is why Harry was entrusted to > the Dursley's care. JKR semed impressed that the question came from a > young child and said that he should " continue to explore along JKR is awfully good at deflecting, though. And she says that she only squashes theories that really have no purpose - which to me means she lets some theories, although wrong, continue. I think this is one of them. I don't believe that any of the Dursleys have magic within them. The Dursleys are largely symbolic of the Muggle world and its fear of anything different. To turn one of them into a wizard would destroy the symbollism inherent in them. I do agree that there was likely more than one letter to Petunia, causing DD to say "Remember my last" and not "Remember my letter". However, I don't think one of the letters would have invited Dudley to Hogwarts - that would not have happened until Dudley was eleven, at which point we would have noticed an extra owl. I think the extra communication between DD and Petunia occured *before* the Potters' deaths; thus, the last letter Petunia received from DD was the one in which he entrusted Harry to her. (DD even says as much to Harry in OotP, telling him point blank that the "last" letter was that note.) IMO, Dudley's a Muggle. Sorry. --azriona From azriona at juno.com Mon Jul 25 16:02:33 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:02:33 -0000 Subject: Slughorn's age when taking Felix Felicis potion In-Reply-To: <42E506BE.E509F1A2@cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Maggy Shannon wrote: > I wonder if anyone has considered that the age at which Professor Slug took the Felix Felicis potion might be a clue? > > At the bottom of page 187 (US edition) Slughorn says he took the potion at age 24 and at age 57. The precision seems to call attention to itself. > > The two occasions are approximately 28 years apart. Voldemort fell ca. 1981, and going by JKR's statement that Snape was "about 36" when the series opens (1991), his date of birth would be ca. 1955. This would also be close to the birth year of the Maurauders, who we know were in Snape's year in school. > > The gap between the birth of Snape and the Maurauders and the fall of Voldemort roughtly corresponds to the gap between Slughorn's two uses of Felix Felicis. > > Since we know from the memory of telling Riddle about horcruxes that Slughorne will lie, can it be possible that he lies when he says that the days he took Felix Felicis were normal, ordinary days? Can the ages at which Slughorne took the potion be a clue? > > Pax, > > Maggy > Macon, Georgia, US It would never have happened. Had Slughorn taken the potion a second time at the age of 57 in 1981, it would mean that he was born in 1924, making him a contemporary of Voldemort (who was born in the late twenties to early thirties). If that were true, Slughorn could not have been his professor, as he is shown in the Pensieve. --azriona From hambtty at triad.rr.com Mon Jul 25 16:07:27 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:07:27 -0000 Subject: LV and Snape - Ubreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134795 Perhaps LV and Snape made an UV that LV would not kill Lilly. Why? Maybe to reward Snape for a job well done (prophecy). LV had no use for Lily and didn't care if she lived or died so no skin off his nose. BUT in anger when she wouldn't move from Harry he killed her and as the AK bounded off of Harry and the broken UV did its magic - LV's body was destroyed (skin from his nose and all). Whatcha think? -BG- From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Jul 25 16:12:58 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:12:58 -0000 Subject: Kidnapped Fortescue knew about History Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134796 aussie: Fortescue, Florean (From Harry Potter Lexicon, http://www.hp- lexicon.org/wizards/wizards-d-g.html ) Owned an ice cream parlor in Diagon Alley. Florean knows quite a bit about medieval wizardry; When Harry was living at the Leaky Cauldron (POA ch4) ... Florean gave him free sundaes every half hour and HELPED WITH HIS ESSAY ON MEDIEVIL WIZARDRY (PA4). Fortescue was "dragged off" by Death Easters in the first weeks of the Second Wizarding War (late June or early July 1996 [Y16]) (HBP6). In his coming search for the remaining Horcruxes, Harry may well find Fortescue and get information on Griffindor's historical trinket. What other secrets would LV want to drag out of him? Side note on his name: Fortescue is also a good site to study geneology from the Battle of Hastings (1066 - or 950 years ago) till today. Also, Sir John Fortescue (1531-1607) was the first to enforce anti- witchcraft laws in England under Queen Elizabeth I. Florean is a museum in Romania. But is the name Romanian or Italian? (GOF ch 33) LV said "... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality." hmm, to go further than anybody, including Flamel, does LV need Fortescue to unravel an historic clue? -aussie- From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 16:16:59 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:16:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: What I hate is the > speculation that she, herself, was evil and nasty. Just because > someone is plain or "sullen looking" doesn't mean they are evil > people. Her sullen expression could mean a lot of things - she could > have had bad teeth and didn't want to smile because of that.... > Hey, I'll stop as soon as Rowlings stops! But I'm not making up the rules in this game, SHE is, and she has shown a consistent pattern of making ugly females also evil or dislikable ones. Similarly, the most beautiful women are also the nicest: Lily, Fleur, Ginny, even Cho. They're not infallible, but they're on the side of good. Hermione is not described as a beauty, but she CAN look pretty when she wants to, as we saw during the Christmas Ball in GoF, when she made such a nice match with Krum. Who do we have on the plain side? Petunia, Aunt Marge, Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bulstrode, Mrs. Snape, Merope, Eileen Prince. There are few exceptions: Narcissa comes to mind, but as we've seen in Book 6, there may be reason for moving her out of the "evil" column; there seems to be a bit more to her than at first appeared. There doesn't seem to be much of a Jane Eyre theme in HP, or even a C.S. Lewis strain - he did make a point of making the White Witch beautiful as well as evil. Instead, we seem to be in Wizard of Oz territory: "Only bad witches are ugly." Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 16:19:11 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:19:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: Who do we have on the plain side? Petunia, Aunt > Marge, Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bulstrode, Mrs. Snape, Merope, > Eileen Prince. Excuse me, I meant to write Mrs. BLACK, not Mrs. Snape. And I forgot to add Dolores Umbridge to the list, who certainly belongs there. Wanda From pfsch at gmx.de Mon Jul 25 16:27:49 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:27:49 -0000 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux (spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134799 Hi Louise Margaret, (Spoiler from 3rd paragraph on) > It seems the best way would be to find a Dementor, throw it to him > and yell "Fetch!" LOL! Cute idea! Never thought of that, but it might really work. But would they want it? They feed upon good thoughts, don't they? BTW: Prof. Merrythought's special expertise might have been Patronusses. ;) > The difficulty with RAB is not just finding someone with the right > initials, but someone who 1) knows Voldy was using Horcruxes and > 2) is on par with DD, wizarding wise. I don't quite agree on 2. I don't think that he/she must be an equally wise wizard to get the horcrux. He might have been someone close to LV so he got some hints (not on purpose, of course). And perhaps the pains DD suffers from drinking the poison are easier to endure if you're equally evil, don't care for anyone. I think DD has to endure the vision of people dying by one mistake of his, which would perhaps not hurt someone who doesn't care about others. But he/she can't be a novice... I deduce from the wording of the letter in the box ("Dear Dark Lord ... I have stolen *the* *horcrux* ... yours, RAB") that he/she knows only of one horcrux, not of the others. So (s)he's not quite that wise as DD is. > Any speculation on > whether the locket was swapped recently, or years ago? Well, I believe in the theory mentioned in chat, that it's Regulus (A.?) Black. Which would indicate that he wasn't such a bad wizard after all (it was never said he wasn't good but I personally never took him as clever), and perhaps not such an evil one either. If it was a completely new character, JKR would have given us the complete name, not just the initials. (another one from chat room). Even if it isn't Regulus, I think it is someone from the time LV was at large for the first time. He/she took his coming death for sure, and I believed he feared a Death from revenging Death Eaters. If it really is R. Black and the locket we've seen in 12GP is the horcrux... has Mundungus sold it yet? Why else would JKR show us the scene where Harry discovers Mundungus selling stolen goods from the Black House? Goodbite setrok From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 16:31:55 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:31:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's Parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" > wrote: > What I hate is the > > speculation that she, herself, was evil and nasty. Just because > > someone is plain or "sullen looking" doesn't mean they are evil > > people. Her sullen expression could mean a lot of things - she could > > have had bad teeth and didn't want to smile because of that.... > > > Hey, I'll stop as soon as Rowlings stops! But I'm not making up the > rules in this game, SHE is, and she has shown a consistent pattern of > making ugly females also evil or dislikable ones. Similarly, the most > beautiful women are also the nicest: Lily, Fleur, Ginny, even Cho. > They're not infallible, but they're on the side of good. Hermione is > not described as a beauty, but she CAN look pretty when she wants to, > as we saw during the Christmas Ball in GoF, when she made such a nice > match with Krum. Who do we have on the plain side? Petunia, Aunt > Marge, Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bulstrode, Mrs. Snape, Merope, > Eileen Prince. There are few exceptions: Narcissa comes to mind, but > as we've seen in Book 6, there may be reason for moving her out of the > "evil" column; there seems to be a bit more to her than at first > appeared. There doesn't seem to be much of a Jane Eyre theme in HP, > or even a C.S. Lewis strain - he did make a point of making the White > Witch beautiful as well as evil. Instead, we seem to be in Wizard of > Oz territory: "Only bad witches are ugly." > > Wanda yep, LOL. Rowling does that a lot. However, Luna is no beauty - isn't she plain? And she is a good witch :) And is Merope such an evil person? She did a love potion, but that is not a dark art. colebiancardi(still wishing Rowling wouldn't make things either pretty/good & ugly/evil) Snape is ugly, but is HE really evil? From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 16:35:20 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:35:20 EDT Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) Message-ID: <20.497af892.30166ec8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134801 Eggplant wrote: > Snape sure didn't seem very reluctant to me, hate was etched on every > line of his face as he killed Dumbledore the instant he walked into > the room. And Dumbledore would be nuts not to tell Harry about this > crazy plan, he must understand Harry well enough by now to know that > he would dedicate his life to killing Snape if he murdered his > headmaster in front of his very eyes. As it is I wouldn't be surprised > if in Harry's mind killing Snape now had an even higher priority than > killing Voldemort; and if that was part of Dumbledore's grand plan it > doesn't seem like a very good plan. Ali wrote: I concur. To clarify, I'm actually still holding out judgment on Snape; I just can't decide on this one, not even after 2.5 readings of HBP. However, I certainly am leaning towards ESE!Snape just because of Harry and his personality [as I view it]. In literary terms, a "saving people thing" is always coupled with a "ridiculous guilt complex" thing. Therefore, if Snape is to be good, I can't see how he would convey that to Harry, who is utterly convinced of Snape's guilt. Because I also see how killing Snape might top killing Voldemort on Harry's current list of priorities, I have to question how Harry is going to feel when (if) he finds out that Snape was on the side of light. Harry would endure immense guilt for the rest of his life, made all the worse because he alone could never see any good in Snape. However, this guilt is absolved if Snape is to be ESE. (I'm not saying Harry wouldn't feel guilt if he had to kill, but I am saying that he will not feel life-altering, depression-inducing guilt.) In addition, I cannot forgive that Dumbledore could so short-sighted as to not directly tell Harry of this plan, if this was truly a plan. (Despite the fact that he may have left some evidence to prove Snape's innocence, Dumbledore must have understood that Harry would still always view Snape in contempt because, regardless of the reason, Snape did deliver the killing blow to Dumbledore, and Harry won't abide by that.) In short, what I'm saying is that, while I'm still holding judgment on Snape, I tend to see towards ESE!Snape because of the literary tradition as well Harry's personality [as I see it]. ~Ali PS Just how is Snape being ESE make him less interesting of a character? I've seen it said; I just don't understand. I think he's going to be even more fascinating if he does turn out to be on Voldemort's side. Julie says: I think Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry the plan because Voldemort can enter Harry's mind. Harry needs to believe Snape is on the side of evil, at least at this point, so Voldemort will believe it too. And while Harry wants to kill Snape now, I do think he will find out that Snape acted out of loyalty to Dumbledore. Not from Snape, of course, since he wouldn't believe a word Snape says, but through a bottled memory of DD's, or via some other method DD concocted. Or perhaps he won't find out until the moment of confrontation. But Harry won't kill Snape in either case, because Harry is NOT that kind of person. Though he may not fully be aware of that fact yet, DD is. Harry doesn't kill for revenge. There's also no reason for Harry to feel guilt. He had every reason to distrust Snape. When he finds out the truth, he'll also understand why DD couldn't tell him about Snape's part in the plan, and how it had to be that way to protect everyone involved. Granted, this understanding does depend on Harry gaining both maturity and wisdom in Book 7. Harry must recognized that DD didn't choose Death. Death had already chosen him. DD simply manipulated the time and circumstances to his (and Harry's) benefit. He must also recognize that Snape kept his promise the same as Harry did. Harry forced poison down DD's throat even though he felt hatred and revulsion at what he was doing, so how can he fault Snape for keeping the same sort of promise? Further, Harry will understand it was never about DD dying--it was DD's time, he lived a full, rich life, he made his death count for something, and Death was only a next step for him. So the issue isn't whether Snape "killed" DD, but whether Snape betrayed DD's trust. And if Snape didn't, then Harry can recognize this and acknowledge Snape's role. (Note, Harry doesn't have to actually *like* Snape, ever.) That will be Harry's real achievement, IMO. Not killing Voldemort or saving the WW world, or even becoming a great wizard, but becoming a great man, just as Dumbledore knew he could be. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 25 16:43:34 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: Sparing Lily (was: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?")/Re: Horcrux possibility Message-ID: <003401c59138$001b1c60$3ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134802 Cheryl said: "I thought the one who would never return was Karkaroff, who was killed, as LV said he would be. I think it is clear now that Snape was the "faithful servant at Hogwarts" (though I am in the camp that thinks Snape is still on the good side, depite appearances)." Funny, I just re-read my notes on this a few minutes ago. There are six missing Death Eaters in that one space (the graveyard scene in GOF). Three dead in LV"s service: Evan Rosier, Wilkes, and ? One, too cowardly to return, he will pay - Snape One, who I believe has left me for ever.. he will be killed, of course (and was) - Karkaroff And one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service - Barty Crouch, Jr. Snape, himself, cleared up the one too cowardly to return. He didn't return to LV's side, he said, for two hours, on DD's orders (remember, in the Hospital Wing, after DD asked him if he was prepared to do what DD needed him to do?). I don't think it matters here which one Snape or Karkaroff fit into. Except it works well that 'he will pay' - forcing Snape into a position to make an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa - is better payback than simply being murdered, as Karkaroff was. Barty, Jr. had stupefied poor old Mad-Eye Moody and kept him locked in a trunk for 9 months, murdered his own father to get him out of the way and prevent him talking to DD, and made Harry's working through the maze easier by getting things out of his way. He was making sure Harry made it first to the Portkey to be transported directly to LV. Crouch, Jr. didn't end up in the graveyard scene because it would have been too suspicious if he had left the Hogwarts grounds that night. That's my take on it, anyway. ---------------------- -Isis said: "I don't have my books with me right now, but isn't there supposed to be a snake on the locket (at least the one that Voldemort allegedly made into a Horcrux? I can't remember, but was the locket that wouldn't open (in OOTP) described as having a snake on it? That seems to be a defining point, and I can't see it being left out of the description... I still think that it is pretty coincidental that this was there, so I'm leaning towards it being the locket in question..." The locket was described as having a snake on it in the pensive scene between Riddle/LV and Hepzibah Smith. There was no snake mentioned in the initial description of the locket "'See this?' he bellowed at Ogden, shaking a heavy gold locket at him, while Merope spluttered and gasped for breath" The locket, in OotP was described as "a heavy locket that none of them could open." I don't think they were always looking at things that closely just binning the stuff. The locket won't open, bin it. Besides, every blessed thing in that house had a snake on it so it wouldn't have been a notable to them if there was one on the locket, as well. At that point of the process, they would hardly have made note of another snake. Sirius hadn't been in the house for a long time and wouldn't have recognized it - or, more to the point I guess, not recognized it. It had only been a few hours before when Sirius said "Come on, Harry, haven't you seen enough of this house to tell what kind of wizards my family were?" and, upon entering the house initially, Harry thought the house looked like it belonged to the Darkest of wizards with the snake candelabra and chandelier, etc.. Now, just to find out whether Kreacher has pocketed it or Mundungus. And if Dung had it, what did he do with it? And why, when "He was banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago and that barman's got a long memory," were he and that particular barman conversing outside the Three Broomsticks? CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lealess at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 17:14:59 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:59 -0000 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134803 Lasp1x said: Secondly, I wanted to bring up the question of the person who came into magic late in life. I have mentioned my opinion of this at Fiction Alley but am curious enough about it to also bring it up here. HP fans are known for over analyzing, I do it myself all the time. But could the person who comes into magic late in life be as simple as being Merope? We are told by Dumbledore that she couldn't do magic until she left the Gaunt house and her father also calls her a squib. azriona said: I wonder *why* she couldn't do magic until she left the house. Was it because she wasn't very good at it to begin with, or perhaps her family was so overbearing that she was afraid to try? And if she never did magic, does that mean she didn't attend Hogwarts? (Although I don't imagine for a second the rest of the family did, either.) lealess: Merope might have been more-or-less a Squib, but skilled enough in potions to concoct a love drug. Perhaps potions does not need certain magical ability (wand waving)? On the other hand, abuse may have caused her to become depressed and internalize the views of her abusers, thus suppressing her magic. Snape's mother, if she let her Muggle husband abuse her, might have similarly had her magic reduced by abuse. We have seen the effect thwarted love has on Tonks, supposedly. She's draggin' her wagon all over Hogwarts. So, it is not inconceivable that shock of abuse had the same effect on Snape's mom. And if she was abused, once that pattern sets in, it is hard to break it and return to wholeness, especially if there is no external support. lealess From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 17:28:03 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:28:03 -0000 Subject: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134804 >From HBP, p. 154 (Brit edition): "Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back on, thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, inconveniently, was the furthest from the Entrance Hall) without being noticed. As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape said, 'No Cloak. You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what you wanted, I'm sure.'" That could've been a lucky guess on Snape's part, but later in HBP Snape definitely reads Harry's mind when he asks him where he learned the Sectumsepra spell. In the Occlumency lessons in Book 5, Snape seemed to need a wand and the incantation "Legilimens!" for that sort of thing, but in HBP he calls up the Potions textbook in Harry's mind without any spoken incantation or wand use at all (that I'm aware of). Harry can feel the effects-- "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes"-- but what if you don't notice having your mind read unless you're expecting it? This is likely to make me re-interpret every Snape/Harry interaction in the canon. If Snape can really read Harry's mind as easily as he did for Sectumsempra... then surely he'll have been doing it for years now. There have been plenty of times when Snape tried to wring confessions out of Harry, and he always seemed to know or suspect whenever Harry was lying. On the other hand, there were times when Snape definitely didn't get the information he was seeking. I speculate that he could be under orders from Dumbledore not to use his powers against the students; certainly that's one of the first orders I'd give if I had a bad-tempered mind-reader on my staff. Of course, Harry's probably also a bad liar. Didn't JKR say that he carries his emotions too close to the surface, or something like that, and that's why he sucks at Occlumency? --oiboyz From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 17:37:38 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:37:38 -0000 Subject: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > From HBP, p. 154 (Brit edition): > > "Harry wondered whether he could slip his Invisibility Cloak back > on, thereby gaining his seat at the long Gryffindor table (which, > inconveniently, was the furthest from the Entrance Hall) without being > noticed. > As though he had read Harry's mind, however, Snape said, 'No Cloak. > You can walk in so that everyone sees you, which is what you wanted, > I'm sure.'" > > That could've been a lucky guess on Snape's part, but later in HBP > Snape definitely reads Harry's mind when he asks him where he learned > the Sectumsepra spell. In the Occlumency lessons in Book 5, Snape > seemed to need a wand and the incantation "Legilimens!" for that sort > of thing, but in HBP he calls up the Potions textbook in Harry's mind > without any spoken incantation or wand use at all (that I'm aware of). > Harry can feel the effects-- "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his > eyes"-- but what if you don't notice having your mind read unless > you're expecting it? > > This is likely to make me re-interpret every Snape/Harry interaction > in the canon. If Snape can really read Harry's mind as easily as he > did for Sectumsempra... then surely he'll have been doing it for years > now. There have been plenty of times when Snape tried to wring > confessions out of Harry, and he always seemed to know or suspect > whenever Harry was lying. On the other hand, there were times when > Snape definitely didn't get the information he was seeking. I > speculate that he could be under orders from Dumbledore not to use his > powers against the students; certainly that's one of the first orders > I'd give if I had a bad-tempered mind-reader on my staff. > > Of course, Harry's probably also a bad liar. Didn't JKR say that he > carries his emotions too close to the surface, or something like that, > and that's why he sucks at Occlumency? > > --oiboyz well, when JKR spoke with Alan Rickman about the role of Snape, she mentioned some things to him about Snape's personality & whatnot. I re-watched both SS/PS and CoS and I can tell you, when Rickman looks at Harry, I can "see" him trying to get into Harry's mind and dragging stuff out of it. He always has a penetrating look in his eyes when he looks at Harry. I think Snape's been dropping into Harry's mind uninvited since SS/PS. colebiancardi From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:02:58 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:02:58 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <20050721113656.26798.qmail@web86209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > > Actually I thought book 6 provided a very good > explanation for why Snape hasn't treated Hermione as > "the best student he'd ever had". > She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not > curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following > the instructions to a 't'. > That was very surprising, at least for me. > Hi i personally wouldnt call Hermione mediocre, in all the potion classes we've seen she gets exact results, there are umpteen times we see that she is the only one who gets her potion the exact colour and texture that it should be. she even helps Neville on the sly and prevents his toad from getting poisoned. Afraid to experiment? this is the girl who brews Polyjuice Potion in her second year, by getting a restricted book out of the library. And to cap it all, the first time she is judged by an unbiased teacher she gets an an outstanding in potions (im referring to her OWLs) And as far as HBP is concerned, Hermione doesnt get anything wrong, her potions are textbook perfect, and thats really the best a student aims for. Hermione may be lots of things but mediocre.??. you got to be kidding. shagufta (long time lurker) From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:07:57 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:07:57 -0000 Subject: More funny lines in the book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Luigina Ciolfi" wrote: > My favourite funny line, when Nearly Headless Nick tells Harry that Dumbledore has returned to Hogwarts (Chapter 23 - Horcruxes) > > NHN: " I had it from the Bloody Baron, who saw him arrive (...) He appeared, according to the Baron, to be in good spirits, though a little tired, of course.' > 'Where is he?' said Harry, his heart leaping. > 'Oh, groaning and clanking up on the Astronomy tower, it's a favourite pastime of his-' > 'Not the Bloody Baron, Dumbledore!' Am rather behind posts so i apologise if anyone has already selected my favourite funny passage, i crack up just thinking about it. Its when Snape aske Harry the difference between a ghost and Inferi then mocks him for saying 'ghosts are transparent' Ron butts in: (paraphrase) well if you meet a ghost in a dark alley you can hardly ask him, excuse me but are you the imprint of a departed soul...' (cracking up again) shagufta From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:19:40 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:19:40 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134809 Here's what might have happened at Godrics Hollow My thanks to Bunnycollins for providing a key piece of the puzzle! 1. James and Lily are in hiding at Godric's Hollow 2. Snape hears the first part of Trelawney's Prophecy while still under the employ of LV 3. Snape runs to tell LV of this critical discovery. 4. LV deduces that there are only two boys who this prophecy can apply to 5. LV deduces that Harry Potter is the bigger threat 6. Snape loves Lily, who was the only person ever shown to be decent enough to be concerned about him (with the possible exception of his mother), 7. Pettigrew provides LV with unimpeachable proof that the Potter are hiding in Godric's Hollow 8. Snape panics, realizing that Lily will undoubtedly be killed when LV gets to Godric's Hollow - Lily and James are members of the Order after all..... 9. Snape tries to makes a deal (unbreakable vow?) with LV to spare Lily as a reward for his loyal service him. 10. Snaps is an expert occlumens so LV, though an expert legillimens, cannot read Snape's mind to read his love of Lily and the fact that it might threaten his mission at Godric's Hollow. 11. LV is NOT as good an occlumens as Snape is a legillimens and Snape sees that LV may not be entirely truthful in his promise. Harry was able to break into the Dark Lord's mind, why not Snape? And, even if LV made the Unbreakable Promise, will he die if he is immortal? So what does the Dark Lord have to lose? 12. Meanwhile, Dumbledore, knowing the prophecy, and with the help of his partner Nicholas Flamel, had already prepared the Elixir of Life for Harry, and made sure that Harry drank it, making him temporarily immortal. This would make Harry at least partially immune to the AK. [Note - why didn't they take it? There wasn't enough to go around for all of them - maybe there wasn't enough time. They didn't know that Pettigrew betrayed them. 13. Snape runs to GH to warn the Potters of Voldemort's impending visit. After hearing what he has to say, James laughs at him and throws him out, but not before Snape manages to filch James' invisibility cloak. Once outside he puts on James' cloak and waits for Voldemort. 13. Voldemort arrives at Godrics Hollow, kills James and faces Lily, who is protecting Harry. 14. LV did not need to kill Lily because he had already killed James. This gave him the power he needed to accomplish what his REAL purpose was - to plant a Horcrux in Harry. He knew that DD or anyone else could not kill a baby - which guaranteed that a piece of his soul would always remain. HE NEVER INTENDED TO KILL HARRY AND HARRY WAS NEVER HIT WITH AN AK. LV knew he was dealing with alchemists and he certainly knew enough to know that Flamel and DD were partners who could make the Elixir of Life. That is why he had originally agreed not to kill Lily in the first place..... But Lily did not let him near Harry and Voldemort AKed her. What did he care? WIth Harry as the vessel of part of his soul he would indeed be immortal..... 15. But someone DID care ..... While Voldemort entered GH, e was unaware that Snape had followed him in, wearing James' invisibility cloak. 16. When Voldemort killed Lily, Snape cracked ---- Simultaneously with LV turning Harry into a living Horcrux through his scar, Snape silently AKed LV, whose body exploded. THough he never knew who or what hit him, oldemort's soul survived because he already had a number of Horcrux's - six to be exact - Harry being his seventh and final one..... 17. Snape returns to DD telling him what happened, how he had tried to protect the Potters and kill LV but failed and was truly TRULY repentant because Lily had died. Maybe he had turned to DD, maybe not - he was certainly a good enough Occlumens so that DD, trusting by nature, had no choice but to trust him......... This also explains why DD wanted Snape to teach Harry Occlumency -- noone was better at it - he was even able to delude the Dark Lord...... 18. Snape takes Voldemort's wand and leaves James' invisibility cloak (or as Clemenza would say "leave the gun take the cannoli" ) And thanks to Bunnycollins for providing a key piece of the puzzle (see below) very impressive for a first time poster ! ------------------------------------------------------------- Bunnycollins: I too am thinking that Snape was present at Godric's Hollow, however I'm tinkering with the idea that Snape didn't try to save LV, but that he tried to kill him. That LV broke a promise to Snape that he wouldn't harm Lily but when Lily was murdered, Snape's rage was so uncontrollable that at the precise moment when Voldemort was AKing Harry, Snape was AKing Voldemort. As we don't know what happens if someone performing AK is AK'd themselves, maybe it's just possible that this would explain why Harry lived, why LV was reduced to less than nothing and why the whole house was destroyed. That Snape hated LV enough to attempt to kill him would be good enough reason for DD to trust Snape so much and ofcourse DD would have been reluctant to reveal all this to Harry on the grounds that Snape only cared about saving Lily and to heck with James. Oh, and LV doesn't remember a thing about what Snape did, because the rebounding curse knocked the stuffing out of him lol. This was my first post, so please be kind. Bunnyc From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:23:39 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:23:39 -0000 Subject: R/H respect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: >> However, I still have problems with a R/H ship. As noted > above, respect is an absolute requirement for love, and I don't see > them respecting each other in the manner and degree that would support > a solid, enduring love. Hi I agree respect is a vital requirement for lasting love, and i personally feel there is mutual respect in this relationship. Ron obviously thinks highly (and rightly so) of Hermione's intellect and academic capabilities (i would have told him you were the smartest in the year or words to that effect in HBP)and while Hermione has a more...um...maternal (for lack of another word) attitude towards Ron, i think she respects him for the person he is and the values he embodies. One of my favourite scenes is from OotP where she has refused to help them with their homework, then Ron gets that awful letter from Percy. His reaction to it shows his absolute loyalty to Harry and Hermione finds it very touching, so much so that she offers to read through and correct their essays (i know H/Hr shipper may have a different take on it but thats how i read it) just my two cents shagufta (who cant believe this is her third post in five minutes after four years of uninterrupted lurking) From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 18:26:00 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:26:00 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Here's what might have happened at Godrics Hollow > 6. Snape loves Lily, who was the only person ever shown > to be decent enough to be concerned about him (with the > possible exception of his mother), > can SOMEONE please explain where, oh, where, in any of the HP books that Snape "loves" Lily? Just because she stuck up for him ONCE and then he insulted her, doesn't mean he loves her. Just because he has nothing bad to say about Lily, doesn't mean he loves her(he doesn't say anything bad about Neville's mother, either, come to think of it). Snape hates James, as that is his bete noire throughout school. I cannot believe there was anything romantic about Snape's feelings for Lily....I haven't seen it. colebiancardi (who also hated that Anakin turned to the darkside because of his "love" for Padme) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:27:18 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:27:18 -0000 Subject: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134812 Merrylinks wrote: > I've looked at some other instances of the use of Impedimenta, and it does seem to fit. > > Impedimenta appears to knock the recipient backwards. If any damage is done, it happens when the recipient collides with something during that process. The curse is short-lived, and no countercurse is> apparently needed afterward. > > There is another element of Snape's AK curse which doesn't ring true. We see the green light, but we don't hear the rushing sound. When Voldemort killed Frank Bryce, it says, "There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor." In the account of Snape killing DD we only see a green light, and there is no mention of a rushing sound. > On one hand, the question of whether Snape used an AK or a silent Impedimenta is irrelevant. The effect of the AK vs. the Impedimenta was the same--Dumbledore was murdered. On the other hand, we can hope that the use of a silent Impedimenta rather than a successful unforgivable curse is technically important in the Potterverse. Carol responds: Thank you for you support of my theory and for the additional evidence of the absent rushing sound, which I had overlooked. (I noted, too, that in GoF Wormtail "screech[es] the spell into the night," the spell is blinding, and Harry falls to his knees, retching, GoF Am. ed. 638. Snape speaks the spell in a normal tone of voice; the flash is not blinding; and Harry, though overcome with grief and horror, is not made physically ill by the evil spell.) I am now thoroughly convinced that the spell Snape cast was an Impedimenta disguised as an AK (or a failed AK combined with a silent Impedimenta), and that JKR went to the trouble of providing these clues so that we would understand: Snape had the *power* to cast an AK but he did not have the *will*. He had no choice but to kill Dumbledore or die himself, and I, for one, am certain that he would rather have died than suffer the remorse and infamy he now must bear. But that would have served no purpose: the real Death Eaters would have killed Dumbledore, anyway, and they would both be dead. So, in all likelihood, would Draco. Snape must survive to save Draco and do whatever else Dumbledore wants him to do. But I want to discuss your last paragraph. I agree that Dumbledore would be dead either way, but if, as we have been speculating, Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, then he was not *murdered.* The distinction between "kill" and "murder" is not merely semantic. It reflects a difference of intention. Killing is sometimes necessary, as Harry himself will find when he faces Voldemort. And murder, we are told, splits the soul. Dumbledore's peaceful expression and closed eyes suggest that he was killed at his own request rather than murdered; that the man he had trusted, perhaps even loved as a son, had not betrayed him. If he thought that Snape had split his soul, that he was irredeemably evil, could he have worn that beatific expression? I think not. Nor, IMO, is the use of a disguised Impedimenta rather than an AK a mere technicality. Snape had to kill Dumbledore and he had to make it look like an Avada Kedavra. But Avada Kedavra is evil in itself, the weapon of Voldemort and his Death Eaters. It corrupts the soul, as we have seen so clearly with Barty Jr. It is *Unforgiveable*. It requires either intense hatred or utter indifference to human life to cast. *If* Snape cast a real AK, then he is a Death Eater. He has betrayed Dumbledore, he has betrayed the Order and the WW, and he is beyond redemption. Snape, of all people, knows what an AK means. There is no question that he has the power to cast one, but if he is loyal to Dumbledore, he lacks the evil intention required for a successful AK. Snape cannot openly cast a failed AK without revealing where his loyalties lie and being murdered himself, failing Dumbledore by placing Draco in the hands of the Death Eaters and unable to carry out the rest of Dumbledore's plan. So, if my theory is right, he cast a silent Impedimenta at the same time as the failed AK, accomplishing the terrible thing that was required of him without irredeemably corrupting his soul. The message that he sent, though there was not to read it but the doomed Dumbledore, is "I am not a Death Eater." Later, Snape tells Harry that *he* must not use Unforgiveable Curses. The reason, which Snape is in no position to state, is that he must maintain the purity of his soul. He must not kill the Dark Lord with his own evil weapons. There are other ways. In the commotion, no one notices the odd behavior of the AK. The Death Eaters see Snape kill his mentor, see the green light, and hear the words "Avada Kedavra." They see Dumbledore fall backwards over the battlements, as limp as if he were already dead. They know that Snape is not a man to be fooled with and they obey him. (The momentary expression of anger and revulsion, reflecting his inner anguish, serves that purpose, too, undoubtedly increasingly their awe of him.) The Death Eaters and the werewolf Fenrir Grayback are not deep thinkers. They will not question either Snape's loyalty to Voldemort or his power (he is clearly dangerous), nor will they examine his methods, any more than they question the fact that he does not join them in their duelling and their mayhem. His priority once Dumbledore is killed is to get them and Draco off the Hogwarts grounds, and they do not question the reason he gives them. It is unlikely that they will stop to recall the strangeness of the abnormal AK. Instead they will "honor him above all others," knowing that Voldemort will do the same. And Harry is no better witness. He sees only his beloved Dumbledore murdered by the treacherous Snape, whom he has always hated and now hates more than ever. He is not likely to notice that this AK did not behave at all like the one that killed Cedric, which in any case he didn't really see. He was blinded by the blast of green light and retching with the horror of the evil spell (GoF Am. ed. 638). Why would JKR take care to differentiate Snape's spell from a normal AK, to make it act like an Impedimenta, a neutral DADA spell used by Aurors as well as Death Eaters? Why does it matter? It matters for Snape and the possibility of redemption, and for Dumbledore and the theme of trust. (Trust, Dumbledore believed, brings out the best in people. It is, IMO, very important that he be proved right.) The question that remains is how anyone will find out what really happened. The killing occurred at the top of a tower, not in Dumbledore's office where it would at least have been witnessed by the portraits. No one knows what *really* happened except Snape, who has put himself beyond the pale in the eyes of his former colleagues at Hogwarts and the Order and the whole Wizarding World, very much like Sirius Black before him (but with no intention of being carted off to Azkaban laughing like a madman). No one knows what *apparently* happened except four Death Eaters and a pair of sixteen-year-old boys, neither of whom will doubt that it was a real AK. How, then, can anyone find out what really happened (if I'm right) and deduce that Snape is still on Dumbledore's side, that he performed an act of incredible courage and loyalty by doing what Dumbledore wanted him to do? The abnormal AK is the only outward evidence and somehow Harry must be made to see it. I can think of only three possibilities: Dumbledore's portrait, Mad_Eye Moody (who will recognize the behavior of an Impedimenta spell in place of an AK if Harry tells him the story), or Snape himself at some point saving Harry and somehow having the opportunity to tell him the truth. All this is simply to say that the question of AK vs. Impedimenta is not a technicality. The spell Snape cast is the key to where his loyalties lie. If it was a real AK, he is a Death Eater, a murderer, and a traitor, irredeemably evil and proof that Dumbledore is wrong to trust a brilliant Slytherin drawn to the Dark Arts. If it was an Impedimenta disguised as an AK, he is Dumbledore's most loyal servant, Dumbledore's man through and through. I hope, I almost pray, that he's the second. The themes of redemption and trust and choice depend upon it. Carol From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:37:18 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:37:18 -0000 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Freeman, Louise Margaret" wrote: > It seems the best way would be to find a Dementor, throw it to him and yell "Fetch!" > > The difficulty with RAB is not just finding someone with the right initials, but someone who 1) > knows Voldy was using Horcruxes and 2) is on par with DD, wizarding wise. Any speculation on > whether the locket was swapped recently, or years ago? Seriously (or should I say, "Siriusly" in true HP fashion), how does one destroy a horcrux? Given that it contains a soul, does it have to be /killed/? And just how is Harry going to know how to do it and not end up looking like a California raisin?! Even if it were a curse that got DD's hand, would LV not have cursed all of them? Julie From sunnylove0 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 18:37:49 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:37:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's After Death Strategy Message-ID: <8b.2bf5009d.30168b7d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134814 In a message dated 7/25/2005 7:03:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, bhavna at impsmanagement.com writes: I think DD knew that Snape's cover was much more important than his own life at that stage. Knowing Riddle as well as he did - DD predicted that this is the best anyone who wants to be trusted unquestioningly by LV has to do - kill 'the Only One He Ever Feared' . Snape killing DD would lead to LV's undoubted trust and belief in Snape which Snape could then use to find out LVs secrets - most importantly the location of the Horcruxes! Whichever side Snape is ultimately on, getting closer to Voldemort is undoubtedly his goal, however this could certainly backfire in Book 7, if Voldemort stops seeing Snape as a useful subordinate and starts seeing him as a dangerous rival a la Stalin. Just a thought. Amber who agrees with Harry that Merope (and Amidala and Oliver Twist's mother) ought to be ashamed of herself and thinks that Snape has a lot more to answer for no matter if he went back to Dumbledore or not Dumbledore or not [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:40:28 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:40:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachel" wrote: > Hi! I hope this has not recently been posted - I have looked through but I > may have missed something. > > I am intrigued by Dumbledore's withered and black hand in HBP and I am sure > that there is more to this than meets the eye. In the latter part of the > book Harry asks Dumbledore about his hand and is never given a straight > answer, in fact the book closes without a reasonable explanation of why it > happened. We do know that Snape tended to the hand (and may therefore know > all about the hunt for the horcruxes) - could this be linked to the reason > Dumbledore sacrifices himself at the end. Is it possible that when the > vessel for part of Voldermort's soul (the ring) is destroyed that the soul > fragment found a new host in the headmaster's hand, causing it to die and > decay? This would mean that he had a reason to choose death, and a reason > to ask Snape to be the one who commits the deed. After all, apart from > Voldie, only Harry, Dumbledore and Snape appear to know anything about the > Horcruxes. > > Okay - it's a bit far fetched - but any thoughts? > > > Rachel x I posted this on another thread, but perhaps it best fits here. How is Harry going to destroy the horcruxes without looking like a California raisin?! And given that a horcrux contains part of a person's soul, does it have to be killed or simply destroyed? Julie From Pouncevil at Att.Net Mon Jul 25 18:40:07 2005 From: Pouncevil at Att.Net (Pouncevil at Att.Net) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:40:07 +0000 Subject: DD's Demise Message-ID: <072520051840.28944.42E53207000145530000711021612436460B070AADD2BBD20201AD@att.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134816 am I the only one who remenber in book 1 & 2 DD saying I would trust Hagrad with my life. Dose that mean that DD will be back. My guess is that he will be back. -- Ronald D. Reid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 18:47:32 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:47:32 -0000 Subject: DD's Demise In-Reply-To: <072520051840.28944.42E53207000145530000711021612436460B070AADD2BBD20201AD@att.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pouncevil at A... wrote: > am I the only one who remenber in book 1 & 2 DD saying I would trust Hagrad with my life. Dose that mean that DD will be back. My guess is that he will be back. > -- > Ronald D. Reid > I think Dumbledore is dead...no rebirth for him. It was time for him to die - passing the torch to Harry. It is a shame that a lot of secrets died with DD, but perhaps Harry will discover them in DD's pensive, when DD's portrait wakes up and the other person - Snape. Harry has to get over his hatred of Snape(if it is a Good!Snape and not ESE!Snape) in order to defeat Voldemort. colebiancardi. From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 18:50:43 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725185043.89391.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134818 > colebiancardi wrote: > well, when JKR spoke with Alan Rickman about the > role of Snape, she > mentioned some things to him about Snape's > personality & whatnot. I > re-watched both SS/PS and CoS and I can tell you, > when Rickman looks > at Harry, I can "see" him trying to get into Harry's > mind and > dragging stuff out of it. He always has a > penetrating look in his > eyes when he looks at Harry. > > I think Snape's been dropping into Harry's mind > uninvited since > SS/PS. > > that is my impression as well. If Snape is as good at occulmens as I think he is then he would use it to his advantange and try to get a 'read' on Harry. that and also I do feel that Harry can be a bit emotional at times. laurie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 18:52:04 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:52:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134819 > I posted this on another thread, but perhaps it best fits here. >How is Harry going to destroy the horcruxes without looking like a > California raisin?! And given that a horcrux contains part of a > person's soul, does it have to be killed or simply destroyed? > > Julie I think that DD messed up when he got the ring - he wasn't aware, perhaps, of the power of a horcrux. after all, Harry destroyed the Diary and he didn't get hurt from that. Unless, of course, Harry is the only one that CAN destroy horcruxes. Remember that DD stated if it wasn't for his skill & Snape's "timely action", he would be a dead man. colebiancardi From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 18:57:25 2005 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (melhersheybar) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:57:25 -0000 Subject: Two questions from a lurker In-Reply-To: <42E1159C.8080603@ufl.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Bowker wrote: > > In reading all these posts, I keep seeing things like ESESnape and > ESELupin. What the heck does ESE stand for? I can kinda get the > meaning from the context of the discussions, but I'm still not clear on > it. > ESE stands for Ever So Evil Mhershey From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 19:01:48 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:01:48 -0000 Subject: pondering the killing of Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134821 I haven't been able to read every post as it's just been impossible although I have skimmed as many as possible and I haven't seem the points I'm going to make mentioned, but if they have been I apologise. Regarding the view that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, I think it was more a case of "if the worst comes to the worst and there's nothing else for it then you will have to kill me". He said something very similar to Harry (UK Ed. p 515 Chpt 25 "The Seer Overheard"): "I take you with me on one condition: that you obey any command I might give you at once, and without question"..."If I tell you to leave me, and save yourself, you will do as I tell you?" I know this is not exactly the same as giving permission to actually kill him, but Snape is a grown man who has undoutedly killed before whereas Harry is an underage innocent (of heinous acts) boy. I think Dumbledore was as good as dead when they arrived back at Hogwarts. His speach is described as mumbling several times and is littered with groans and the closing of his eyes, he also slumps down the wall. His remark to Malfoy (p551 Chpt 27 "The lightening Struck Tower") "Well I certainly did have a drink...and I came back...after a fashion", I take to mean that it was the 'coming back' that is "after a fashion". He's there, but not really or not for long. I think that he is desperate for Snape to carry out the coup de grace so as to spare Harry. Harry poured the poison down Dumbledore's throat. If he had to live the rest of his life in the knowledge that he killed Dumbledore, however much it was following Dumbledore's orders or for the greater good, it would break Harry. This way he has no certainly that his actions would have killed Dumbledore. As far as he is concerned Snape did it. Opionions?! Karen From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 19:05:57 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:05:57 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134822 "colebiancardi" wrote: > can SOMEONE please explain where, oh, where, in any of the HP books > that Snape "loves" Lily? zgirnius: Nowhere. We're all trying to read between the lines. Points in favor of the theory that I have come up with, or have seen posted elsewhere: 1) DD tells Harry that Snape was remorseful about telling LV the prophecy, and that it led to the deaths of Lily and James. Come on, why would he care about James? We see he still harbors hatred of Sirius after 16 years, even once he learned Sirius was not a traitor. So it must be he regrets Lily's death. (This, I think, is the big one. DD knowing this may be a reason he trusts Snape which he did not share with Harry). 2) Why was Snape's worst memory his worst? Maybe it's not what happened to him, but that during the incident he alienated Lily. 3) Snape does not get along with Harry. One reason to explain the animosity is that in addition to looking like James, he is a constant reminder that Lily did not choose Snape. And a constant reminder of his role in Lily's death. 4) Snape is always badmouothing James to Harry. We never hear him say word one against Lily. The pensive scene is the only exception. Why would he not badmouth her as well? Even if she were truly a perfect human being, I don't see how that would stop Snape from saying bad things about her. Snape is constantly saying bad things about Harry which are not true. He ascribes to Harry failings which his father may have had, but which Harry really does not. 5) We now know that Lily and Snape were star students in Potions. So there is some basis for them to have developed a relationship of some sort. Perhaps a friendly rivalry only from Lily's POV. But how might that have affected Snape? A nice, pretty, popular, and talented witch, being friendly to him and respecting his ability? Pure speculation, of course. 6) Petunia (explaining her knowledge of dementors in OotP) explains she overheard Lilly speaking about it to "that dreadful boy". It is never confirmed that she meant James, Harry assumes that. While Petunia might reasonably be expected to call *any* young wizard dreadful, maybe it was really Snape. On a friendly visit. The description certainly seems to it Snape better...and Lily would not have been having a friendly relationship with James Potter before their 6th year, more likely only in the 7th. The Pensieve scene takes place right during OWLS (end of 5th year). So it's in the realm of theory and speculation, for sure, but there is some evidence on which to build this house of cards... Personally I aslo wonder why Narcissa's display of maternal concern seemed to affect Snape so much. But I think I only feel this way becasue I was already leaning towards the Lily theory. From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Mon Jul 25 19:07:33 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:07:33 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134823 >shagufta: >i personally wouldnt call Hermione mediocre, in all the potion >classes we've seen she gets exact results, there are umpteen times we >see that she is the only one who gets her potion the exact colour and >texture that it should be. she even helps Neville on the sly and >prevents his toad from getting poisoned. Afraid to experiment? this >is the girl who brews Polyjuice Potion in her second year, by getting >a restricted book out of the library. And to cap it all, the first >time she is judged by an unbiased teacher she gets an an outstanding >in potions (im referring to her OWLs) > >And as far as HBP is concerned, Hermione doesnt get anything wrong, >her potions are textbook perfect, and thats really the best a student >aims for. > >Hermione may be lots of things but mediocre.??. you got to be kidding. > >shagufta >(long time lurker) But it is interesting that Hermione doesn't experiment with potions. She follows instructions exactly and she gets good results, but she doesn't come up with her own formulations. In fact, in the whole series, we see remarkably few students experimenting with new magic. Fred and George are arguably the most adept at it. But we don't see most students come up with new charms, new ways to transfigure, new curses, new defenses, etc. It is curious to me that Hermione is so condemning of the notes in the margins of the HBP's potions book. It is true that they may be dangerous, and she has always been wary of the implications of anything unusual. But I would have thought that, once she sees how effective they are, she would have wondered why they weren't incorporated into the regular textbook. It is clear that they work, that Slughorn recognizes that they work, that he can sometimes tell what was added to make them work, and that he seems to have no fear of the results. Yes, I know she is jealous of Harry's success, but why is she so negative about the instructions themselves? Why wouldn't she copy the changes that really work into her own book? The example of the Polyjuice Potion isn't really a counter- argument to this. She was willing to make it, and she was very good at making it, but she didn't change it one iota. She followed the instructions exactly. The outstanding on her OWLs is also not a counterexample, as, again, this simply shows that she is excellent at following and remembering instructions. The OWLs didn't ask them to concoct an entirely new potions that would make the drinker's hair turn into feathers or something like that. I wouldn't call her mediocre for not experimenting - just cautious. It is probable that the first that students are allowed or expected to experiment is when they are working at the NEWT level. Fred and George were simply precocious in that regard. And we do see Slughorn asking them to come up with some new things in potions class. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 19:11:30 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725191130.95620.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134824 --- colebiancardi wrote: > I cannot believe there was anything romantic about > Snape's feelings > for Lily....I haven't seen it. > > colebiancardi > (who also hated that Anakin turned to the darkside > because of > his "love" for Padme) Just because snape called lilly a 'mudblood' in the pensive scene during OOTP doesn't mean that he didn't care for her. I see Snape as a secrtive person who would have kept feelings of love for a particular person a secret--such info is always potentionally dangerous esp. if you don't want it used against you. and as far as I have read in offical cannon he hasn't really bad mouthed lilly (other than that one time and it must be give that he was ONLY fifteen when he said it). and we don't know his full motives for aiding harry as yet. so I feel that the door to snape loving lilly is still open--at least till book seven is out laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 19:14:16 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:14:16 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > "colebiancardi" wrote: > > > can SOMEONE please explain where, oh, where, in any of the HP books > > that Snape "loves" Lily? > > zgirnius: > Nowhere. We're all trying to read between the lines. Points in favor > of the theory that I have come up with, or have seen posted elsewhere: > ... > > Personally I aslo wonder why Narcissa's display of maternal concern > seemed to affect Snape so much. But I think I only feel this way > becasue I was already leaning towards the Lily theory. thanks for posting that - but I am not a shipper of this theory (nor am I a shipper at all, for that matter) See - I don't like the Lily theory or any 'love' theory, for that matter, when it comes to Snape. I think he had a moment of conscience and that is why he turned back to DD - it makes Snape a bit more noble to do it on his own, not because of any unrequited love. Now if you want to say that Snape loved Lily like a sister or something like that, like how Harry loves Hermoine in a non-romantic way, I can buy that. but romantic love? nope. Unless Rowling drops a bomb in book 7, I doubt she will make this ship. She HATES Snape and obviously loves Lily - it doesn't make sense. But I have been known to be wrong. colebiancardi (who also poo-poo'd the Obi-Wan is in love with Padme theory in SW) From Nanagose at aol.com Mon Jul 25 19:10:53 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:10:53 EDT Subject: Hermione's Potions ability and "How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind" Message-ID: <102.65afe22a.3016933d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134826 >>Irene: >> She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not >> curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following >> the instructions to a 't'. >> That was very surprising, at least for me. > Christina: I completely disagree. Potions is like chemistry, or for an even easier-to-see analogy, cooking. You can give a chocolate cake recipe to 10 different people, and you will get 10 different chocolate cakes (some disasters, some wonderful). Skill at cooking isn't just about following directions, either. It also involves patience, confidence, a "good eye," and many other attributes. Some people are just naturally better at cooking than others (in much the same way that my chemistry lab experiments turn out wrong every week, despite my lab assistant's insistence that it's "just following directions"). :) Hermione's potions only stop coming out correctly when she is given poor directions to begin with. And as Shagufta pointed out, she brews the Polyjuice Potion, which is years ahead of her training. I always equated that accomplishment to Harry's ability to cast the "Expecto Patronum" charm. They have both shown that, in their own areas of talent, they can handle coursework well beyond their years. >>Laura: >>I wouldn't call her mediocre for not experimenting - just >>cautious. It is probable that the first that students are >>allowed or expected to experiment is when they are working >>at the NEWT level. I agree. I've never seen Hermione as particularly creative or risk-taking, but that doesn't mean she isn't a good Potions student. She's not the prodigy that Snape obviously was, but she's still good at the subject. >>Oiboyz >>That could've been a lucky guess on Snape's part, but later in HBP >>Snape definitely reads Harry's mind when he asks him where he learned >>the Sectumsepra spell. In the Occlumency lessons in Book 5, Snape >>seemed to need a wand and the incantation "Legilimens!" for that sort >>of thing, but in HBP he calls up the Potions textbook in Harry's mind >>without any spoken incantation or wand use at all (that I'm aware of). >>Harry can feel the effects-- "the bathroom seemed to shimmer before his >>eyes"-- but what if you don't notice having your mind read unless >>you're expecting it? Christina: Could Snape be casting the "Legilimens" spell silently during this scene? I suppose so, but I really don't think that's what happened. Snape recognized the spell that Harry used on Malfoy. He's suspicious of his knowledge of the spell right from the start-- (HBP, US, 524) "Apparently I underestimated you, Potter," he said quietly. "Who would have thought you knew such Dark Magic? Who taught you that spell?" ......."It was- a library book," Harry invented wildly. "I can't remember what it was call-" "Liar," said Snape. Also, what follows doesn't look like Legilimency: "The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swam hazily to the forefront of his mind." The first time Harry experiences Legilimency is on page 534 of the US OotP: "Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before Harry had even begun to summon any force of resistance: the office swam in front of his eyes and vanished, image after image was racing through his mind like a flickering film so vivid it blinded him to his surroundings..." Harry's future Legilimency experiences are marked with an immediate onslaught of vivid or rapid-fire images. The scene in the bathroom just doesn't match up with this. I think it's more likely that Harry experienced the same effect most of us experience when we're trying really hard *not* to think about something...the object we want to ignore is all we can think about. I don't see the reason for having Snape verbally say the Legilimency spell during his training sessions with Harry unless he really can't do legilimency well himself. Think about it--there's no spell for occlumency (is there?), and Harry doesn't know enough about Legilimency for Snape to feel the need to hide any latent talent he may have for it. For all Harry knew, anyone can learn Legilimency, and nothing would have seemed odd to him if Snape said the spell silently (or knew Legilimency well enought to not need a spell at all). >>colebiancardi >>well, when JKR spoke with Alan Rickman about the role of Snape, she >>mentioned some things to him about Snape's personality & whatnot. I >>re-watched both SS/PS and CoS and I can tell you, when Rickman looks >>at Harry, I can "see" him trying to get into Harry's mind and >>dragging stuff out of it. He always has a penetrating look in his >>eyes when he looks at Harry. Christina: Funny you should mention that, because I just re-watched CoS last night as well, and I agree with the fact that Rickman's Snape often has a very penetrating look in his eyes when he looks at Harry. However, I don't think it's something specific to Harry. Rickman's Snape has a penetrating look on his face a lot of the time (ie, when the teachers see the message on the wall regarding Ginny), and I think this holds true for the books as well. I've always thought of Snape as being a character that would have a very "penetrating" stare, the kind of person that you always feel can kind of read your mind, even if he can't. Snape has an extremely intense personality, and penetrating eyes just seem to go along with that. Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 19:16:27 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:16:27 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: <20050725191130.95620.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, laurie goudge wrote: > > > --- colebiancardi wrote: > > > I cannot believe there was anything romantic about > > Snape's feelings > > for Lily....I haven't seen it. > > > > colebiancardi > > (who also hated that Anakin turned to the darkside > > because of > > his "love" for Padme) > > > Just because snape called lilly a 'mudblood' in the > pensive scene during OOTP doesn't mean that he didn't > care for her. I see Snape as a secrtive person who > would have kept feelings of love for a particular > person a secret--such info is always potentionally > dangerous esp. if you don't want it used against you. > and as far as I have read in offical cannon he hasn't > really bad mouthed lilly (other than that one time and > it must be give that he was ONLY fifteen when he said > it). and we don't know his full motives for aiding > harry as yet. so I feel that the door to snape loving > lilly is still open--at least till book seven is out > > laurie > and again, it doesn't mean that he does care for her. I can't see it. Sorry. I've read the points that seem, at least to me, reading way too much into it. But I have been known to be wrong, from time to time. I guess I just am not a shipper. colebiancardi From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 19:02:33 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape as culpable In-Reply-To: <1122120650.593.20719.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050725190233.31783.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134828 Defintion of culpable from my dictionary: 2. meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful (negligence) I think the word negligence is important here. JKR says Snape is culpable, but not of what. We know that his relaying of the prophecy prompted LV to kill the Potters. What if Snape's biggest offense is not trying to stop this? What if he is culpable in the sense that he was cowardly at that time and did nothing to change it? Only afterwards (when LV was thought to be dead) did he come beg forgivenes from AD. I don't think this is the reason that AD "trusts" Snape (there's something else we don't know), but I think it is why JKR calls him culpable. Also, I think it is interesting that AD would "trust Hagrid with [his] life," but for Snape is merely states "I trust Severus Snape." The implication being that he would not trust Snape with his life. --Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cathmorgan at cetian.net Mon Jul 25 18:42:52 2005 From: cathmorgan at cetian.net (cathmorgan100) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:42:52 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134829 > Boolean: > One thing struck me when reading Chapter 3 of HBP again, which I hadn't > properly picked up on the first time is what Dumbledore says to Petunia > and Vernon about Dudley. > I admit that it seems unlikely, I just thought DD's comment was rather > cryptic...and although there's only 1 book left to go I am still > holding out hope that one of the Dursleys will turn out to have magical > qualities! Cathcart: It will be very interesting indeed to find out about Petunia, despite her comments implying the contrary in SS; however, JKR squashed thoughts of Dudley's magical ability last year. In an interview of 15 August 2004, (Edinburgh Book Festival) http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80 the inteview states: Q: "Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye?" A: "No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much back story. He is just Dudley. ..." Cathcart From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon Jul 25 17:40:21 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:40:21 -0000 Subject: Would it be too obvious for Snape to be on EITHER side? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134830 I have been watching the current flood of Snape posts with, I must admit, a great deal of pleasure. Whatever else you want to say about JKR, she certainly knows how to stir a pot! The thing that has struck me about most of the posts and theories is that they seem to start with the premise, "Well isn't it OBVIOUS?" To Snape apologists, it is perfectly obvious that the scene on top of the Astronomy Tower was a set up by Dumbledore with Snape's collusion. To those who believe in ESE!Snape, it is just as obvious that Snape has been a loyal DE all along. And both sides are right -- which is to say I can see both their viewpoints. If I look at things from one angle, it DOES seem obvious that the whole Astronomy Tower scenario just HAD to be a set up, indeed it absolutely screams of being an elaborate piece of misdirection. If I look at things from another angle, however, it is every bit as obvious that such an elaborate conspiracy, requiring specific pieces of forsight and a Puppetmaster!Dumbledore straight out of the worst fanfic, would be so absurd that it makes Area 51 and the Second Kennedy Assassin look positively reasonable and sane. In short, I certainly hope that JKR doesn't come down squarely on EITHER side. Many have said that if Snape turns out to have been ESE all along it would be boring and pointless -- and I somewhat (although not totally) agree. Others have said that if the conspiracy theory is true then we have a Manipulative!Dumbledore so unbelievable that "jumping the shark" would be a mild description of the havoc it would work on the entire HP saga and the characters in it, not to mention earning JKR a reputation for ham-handed manipulation in her writing, and I CERTAINLY agree with that. What would a "third option" look like? I think the problem with BOTH sides above is that they relegate all Severus' effective choices of right vs. easy to the backstory as opposed to the saga itself, which I think would be an uninteresting strategy on JKR's part. I'm not interested in a Severus who decided to be evil seventeen years ago and has TOTALLY remained so, or a Severus who repented seventeen years ago and has a been TOTALLY loyal ever since. In other words I find BOTH versions of Snape presented above to be boring and mostly pointless. A third option would incorporate a Snape who, within the SERIES as opposed to within the BACKSTORY, experiences moments of both GENUINE loyalty and GENUINE evil, in other words moments of effective choice that bring effective consequences, both good and ill. Certainly the series cries out for such a character. Voldemort seems never to have faced such a moment in his life, and Harry has never really flirted with the Dark Arts in any serious way. Draco is promising but not major enough of a character to really drive the example home (although if Snape decided to embrace evil and Draco, without the support of his mother, father, or mentor, decided to embrace good, he would become an interesting parallel to Harry). I can come up with all sorts of thought experiments, and I will post some of them, but I would never actually call them predictions. Anyway. Thoughts? Lupinlore From CariadMel at aol.com Mon Jul 25 17:40:12 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:40:12 EDT Subject: The Weasley Clock Message-ID: <12b.61a47bfa.30167dfc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134831 The descriptions given previously of the fascinating clock in the Burrow, was that of a free-standing grandfather clock( I think!) However in HBP ch5, UKed.p87, the clock with its hands all pointing to 'in mortal peril' was in the washing basket, and it says earlier that Molly had taken to carrying it around with her. Isn't this a bit hard given the size if the thing! Except of course it may mean just the dial, but I can't picture that ! Annette. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Mon Jul 25 19:24:29 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:24:29 -0000 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134832 Julie: > Seriously (or should I say, "Siriusly" in true HP fashion), how does > one destroy a horcrux? Given that it contains a soul, does it have to > be /killed/? And just how is Harry going to know how to do it and not > end up looking like a California raisin?! Even if it were a curse > that got DD's hand, would LV not have cursed all of them? > I'd go as far as to say he DEFINITELY cursed or protected all of them somehow, and likely in very different ways. Seems Voldiesque to show off his might and power that way, plus, as it's likely he didn't make all of the horcruxes in close proximity, time-wise, to one another, it's safe to say that as he learned new...ahem..."skills" throughout the years, he figured he'd protect his hidden horcruxes by these new and interesting means. Plus, you know, it'll be fun to watch the trio and friends figure ways to get past that stuff. I would expect the next book to be incredibly action-packed, as most to all of the backstory and buildup have been accomplished. Whoever gets to make the movie will have fun :). Hokus From slmuth at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 18:27:42 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:27:42 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: <209.599df9d.301419ad@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134833 Julie wrote: > DD pretty much does what will help him achieve his goals, > period, thus he put Slughorn and more particularly Snape > *exactly* where he wanted them both, IMO. Now Janeway: I'm curious to know why so many folks seem to believe in an all- knowing, all-powerful Dumbledore (or nearly so), when there's soooo much canon pointing to his mistakes. It hardly seems necessary to reiterate what they are, as most of them form the plots of the previous books: LV!Quirrel, TR!Ginny, Spy!Pettigrew and Innocent! Sirius, Polyjuice!Barty, and the big reveal of OOP that DD blames himself for Sirius death because he didn't trust Harry with the truth about the prophecy. You have to do some pretty hard theorizing to explain away all of these mistakes (not that I haven't tried!!). So it surprises me that many people seem to base their belief in Good!Snape wholly or partly on their belief that DD could never make a mistake like that. What's the evidence for an all-but-omniscient Dumbledore? (BTW, I don't mean to suggest that Julie thinks that DD is omniscient, or that she thinks DD could never have made a mistake about Snape. Her post was just a trigger in my mind for this more general question.) Julie again: > > > And it's not like Dumbledore has hired teachers with the most > competence, especially in DADA, given that he let that dimwit > Lockheart teach DADA one year. And Quirrell didn't seem all > that great either (certainly Umbridge wasn't though DD had > nothing to do with that). Janeway again: Julie, first thanks for reading and replying thoughtfully to my excessively long post! Second, aren't you trying to have it both ways here? DD does just what will help him achieve his goals, but he sometimes hires incompetent teachers? I guess one could argue that hiring incompetent teachers *did* help him achieve his goals in these particular cases, or that the incompetent teachers at least didn't *prevent* him from achieving his goals. I think it makes more sense to recognize that DD has the normal limitations of a headmaster in finding good teachers and sometimes has to make compromises. JMO, Janeway From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 25 19:26:23 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:26:23 -0000 Subject: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134834 "oiboyz" wrote: > snipping< > This is likely to make me re-interpret every Snape/Harry interaction > in the canon. If Snape can really read Harry's mind as easily as he > did for Sectumsempra... then surely he'll have been doing it for years > now. There have been plenty of times when Snape tried to wring > confessions out of Harry, and he always seemed to know or suspect > whenever Harry was lying. On the other hand, there were times when > Snape definitely didn't get the information he was seeking. I > speculate that he could be under orders from Dumbledore not to use his > powers against the students; certainly that's one of the first orders > I'd give if I had a bad-tempered mind-reader on my staff. Potioncat: It has seemed to Harry since the very first book that Snape is "reading" his mind. And it seems very clear that Snape is using Legilimency in CoS when Mrs. Norris has been petrified. He certainly knows that Harry isn't telling the truth. Now in HBP there is no doubt (to me at least) that Snape has become a Legilimens. The real question is, was he a student of Legilimency in the earlier books or was he already skilled? I think in GoF when Snape was threatening to use Veritasarum, he was trying to call forward the memories that pertained to stealing Polyjuice potion. Sort of a heavy handed method a less skilled wizard would use. Which makes sense if he was still learning the technique. In CoS, it seemed to me, that he was telling DD that he sensed dishonesty in Harry. DD replies, innocent until proven guilty. Now, if you think about it, DD has had situations where he's sensed something or flat out known something but took no action. There must be something to Legilimency that makes it, by itself, unreliable or unacceptable as proof. Potioncat From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 19:33:57 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:33:57 -0000 Subject: Would it be too obvious for Snape to be on EITHER side? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > In short, I certainly hope that JKR doesn't come down squarely on > EITHER side. Many have said that if Snape turns out to have been ESE > all along it would be boring and pointless -- and I somewhat (although > not totally) agree. snipping away here... > > What would a "third option" look like? I think the problem with BOTH > sides above is that they relegate all Severus' effective choices of > right vs. easy to the backstory as opposed to the saga itself, which I > think would be an uninteresting strategy on JKR's part. I'm not > interested in a Severus who decided to be evil seventeen years ago and > has TOTALLY remained so, or a Severus who repented seventeen years ago > and has a been TOTALLY loyal ever since. In other words I find BOTH > versions of Snape presented above to be boring and mostly pointless. > A third option would incorporate a Snape who, within the SERIES as > opposed to within the BACKSTORY, experiences moments of both GENUINE > loyalty and GENUINE evil, in other words moments of effective choice > that bring effective consequences, both good and ill. Certainly the > series cries out for such a character. Voldemort seems never to have > faced such a moment in his life, and Harry has never really flirted > with the Dark Arts in any serious way. Draco is promising but not > major enough of a character to really drive the example home (although > if Snape decided to embrace evil and Draco, without the support of his > mother, father, or mentor, decided to embrace good, he would become an > interesting parallel to Harry). I can come up with all sorts of > thought experiments, and I will post some of them, but I would never > actually call them predictions. > > Anyway. Thoughts? > > > Lupinlore loved your post. I think it would be fantastic if JRK made Snape gray, and not a black & white character at the end of book 7. I think that up until now, he has flirted back & forth as the gray character - we all love him & hate him. I think he is a bad, nasty man who happens to be on the right side. But it doesn't mean he won't save his own skin if need be. Someone had a great theory a few days ago - which is very similar to what you are referring to. DD is now out of the way, and Harry will take out LV. Snape is a very powerful wizard and I am sure he wants to be at the very top - but Harry is there as well. This poster theorized that Snape & Harry will work together to get rid of LV and then once that is done, Snape & Harry will duke it out, once & for all - to see who reigns in the WW. I kinda like it. Snape is a Slytherin after all. He is smart, but he can be self-serving. "Or perhaps in Slytherin, you'll make your real friends, those cunning folk use any means, to achieve their ends" colebiancardi From tctruffin at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 16:05:04 2005 From: tctruffin at yahoo.com (Todd C. Truffin) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:05:04 -0000 Subject: Back to the Well / Will Harry Ever Learn? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134836 Please someone direct me to a post that makes sense of what I found to be one of the most befuddling aspects of HBP. So, HP gets hold of an old tattered book that starts giving him information that no one else has. The information begins innocently enough and progresses to darker and darker material. When HP reveals the book to his pals, Ginny rather wisely asks "Did I hear you right? You've been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?" (182, UK childrens). And HP continues using the book and defending its author? I'm not sure if this is a sign of JKR running out of ideas or if it's a sign that HP is really the headstrong blockhead he's made out to be. On the one hand, the fact that JKR has Ginny and Hermione react negatively to the book is a sign that JKR is making a knowing reference to COS. So, one might think that there's something meaningful to HP's obliviousness. On the other hand, given the energy spent on defending HP's attachment to the book and the lack of any significant symbolic meaning that I've been able to suss out, I also feel a bit that JKR is simply saying, "Yup, I'm doing the evil book thing again. What are you gonna do?" Todd From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 19:38:49 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:38:49 -0000 Subject: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134837 > I think in GoF when Snape was threatening to use Veritasarum, he was > trying to call forward the memories that pertained to stealing > Polyjuice potion. Sort of a heavy handed method a less skilled wizard > would use. Which makes sense if he was still learning the technique. In > CoS, it seemed to me, that he was telling DD that he sensed dishonesty > in Harry. DD replies, innocent until proven guilty. Now, if you think > about it, DD has had situations where he's sensed something or flat out > known something but took no action. There must be something to > Legilimency that makes it, by itself, unreliable or unacceptable as > proof. > > Potioncat hmmm. good thoughts...But I think that Snape's ability to do legilimency was not supposed to be well-known - otherwise, this might cause havoc for when he is spying. Since this is not a course that is taught at Hogwarts, I think the WW maybe keeping this a secret, as it is a very invasive way to get the truth from someone. It is a mind- rape, in my opinion and it may be something that is not commonly known or talked about in polite circles. I think Snape had to have been doing this for years, as he was a double-triple-spy way back when. colebiancardi From greenminicat at yahoo.ca Mon Jul 25 16:48:54 2005 From: greenminicat at yahoo.ca (greenminicat) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:48:54 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134838 Sharon wrote: > JKR is awfully good at deflecting, though. And she says that she > only squashes theories that really have no purpose - which to me > means she lets some theories, although wrong, continue. I think this > is one of them. I don't believe that any of the Dursleys have magic > within them. The Dursleys are largely symbolic of the Muggle world > and its fear of anything different. To turn one of them into a > wizard would destroy the symbollism inherent in them. > > I do agree that there was likely more than one letter to Petunia, > causing DD to say "Remember my last" and not "Remember my letter". > However, I don't think one of the letters would have invited Dudley > to Hogwarts - that would not have happened until Dudley was eleven, > at which point we would have noticed an extra owl. I think the extra > communication between DD and Petunia occured *before* the Potters' > deaths; thus, the last letter Petunia received from DD was the one in > which he entrusted Harry to her. > > (DD even says as much to Harry in OotP, telling him point blank that > the "last" letter was that note.) > > IMO, Dudley's a Muggle. Sorry. > I don't think it is in keeping with DD's character to agree to hide or squash someone's magical abilities. Don't you think that DD would see this as a kind of murder of someone, killing off an important part of that person. And supposing that Dudley does have some magical powers, could they be so easily squashed. The Dursleys tried for 10 years to supress Harry's powers and couldn't. Even Neville's powers, which apparently were rather latent, still emerged. I think the Dursleys really are the worst kind of muggle, as they are often referred to in the text. With respect to correspondence between Petunia and DD, do you think that he might have written to her in regard to her sister's death, and in that note made reference to LV and his evil ways and that "remember my last" might refer to some content around the threat that LV poses. He kills muggles too, and tortures them (or his followers do, like at the World Cup) so he isn't only a threat to the magical world. And finally, I suspect that Jo is sensitive to little ones feelings and would not directly shoot down a child's theory. I don't put much stock in that response, though I agree she has hinted that there might be more to Petunia than meets the eye. Certainly I agree that there must have been some inducement to take in Harry, but I don't think it has anything to do with Dudley having magical powers. I would like to know what that inducement was though. Greenmini Cat From imontero at iname.com Mon Jul 25 17:31:50 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:31:50 -0000 Subject: General comments and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134839 another_potter_fan wrote: > DD knew someone was trying to kill him. > DD knew he could only trust Snape, so he allowed Snape to use the AK > curse, but WITHOUT the intent to kill DD (again, you have to mean > it). By faking his death, DD accomplishes several key points: 1) LV Luna: Didn't Jo explained why she had to kill DD in her last Interview with Emerson? Isn't it the point that Harry has to go for it by himself? She sounded very much sure of DD being dead... From bex753 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 18:29:55 2005 From: bex753 at yahoo.co.uk (Bex) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:29:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... References: Message-ID: <014d01c59146$db29dfe0$6501a8c0@quietpc> No: HPFGUIDX 134840 Irene Mikhlin wrote: >> [Hermione]is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not curious, >> afraid to experiment, only good in following the instructions to >> a 't'. shagufta: > i personally wouldnt call Hermione mediocre, in all the potion > classes we've seen she gets exact results, there are umpteen times > we see that she is the only one who gets her potion the exact > colour and texture that it should be. she even helps Neville on > the sly and prevents his toad from getting poisoned. Afraid to > experiment? this is the girl who brews Polyjuice Potion in her > second year.... And to cap it all, the first time she is judged by > an unbiased teacher she gets an an outstanding in potions Hermione is a very good student but not a risk taker. Snape, whose grasp of potioneering is brilliant in all the books, is obviously an instinctive risk taking potion maker like (Lily Evans), and Hermione's Straight laced approach was bound to get some derision from Snape. Bex From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 25 19:51:39 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:51:39 -0000 Subject: More funny lines in the book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shagufta_naazpk2000" wrote: > Am rather behind posts so i apologise if anyone has already selected > my favourite funny passage, i crack up just thinking about it. > Its when Snape aske Harry the difference between a ghost and Inferi > then mocks him for saying 'ghosts are transparent' Ron butts in: > (paraphrase) well if you meet a ghost in a dark alley you can hardly > ask him, excuse me but are you the imprint of a departed soul...' > My favourite funny passage: 'This is your copy of Advanced Potion-Making, is it, Potter?' 'Yes,' said Harry, still breathing hard. 'You're quite sure of that, are you, Potter?' 'Yes,' said Harry, with a touch more defiance. 'This is the copy of Advanced Potion-Making that you purchased from Flourish and Blotts?' 'Yes,' said Harry firmly. 'Then why,' asked Snape,'does it have the name "Roonil Wazlib" written inside the front cover?' Harry's heart missed a beat. 'That's my nickname,' he said. 'Your nickname,' repeated Snape. 'Yeah... that's what my friends call me,' said Harry. 'I understand what a nickname is,' said Snape. This is one of those passages you can just HEAR in your head, like a perfectly-written comedy routine - the careful three-fold setup, with Harry lying his head off, and Snape playing the straightman. Wanda From dlatchman at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 15:57:33 2005 From: dlatchman at yahoo.com (David L.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:57:33 -0000 Subject: In Essense Divided In-Reply-To: <65859365.20050725154427@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134842 Didn't Voldemort intend and try to kill Harry? If he had intended to use Harry as a Horcrux, won't he want to keep him alive? David L. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 19:52:55 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:52:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" wrote: > > I posted this on another thread, but perhaps it best fits here. > >How is Harry going to destroy the horcruxes without looking like a > > California raisin?! And given that a horcrux contains part of a > > person's soul, does it have to be killed or simply destroyed? > > > > Julie > > I think that DD messed up when he got the ring - he wasn't aware, > perhaps, of the power of a horcrux. after all, Harry destroyed the > Diary and he didn't get hurt from that. Unless, of course, Harry is > the only one that CAN destroy horcruxes. Remember that DD stated if > it wasn't for his skill & Snape's "timely action", he would be a dead > man. > > colebiancardi You're exactly right. DUH ME!! I must have had a brain lock because I did not think of the diary. (For some reason, that black withered hand is what filled my memory!) I do like the idea you have about Harry being the only one who CAN destroy them. Perhaps that's what DD realized. Julie From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 19:55:25 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:55:25 -0000 Subject: Would it be too obvious for Snape to be on EITHER side? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134844 "lupinlore" wrote: > What would a "third option" look like? zgirnius: Hi, I posted a possible interpretation of the events in HBP which meets your criteria a few days ago (Post 133503). I've given more thought to possible motives for Snape taking the UV like he does since then. Maybe it's not simply a move to try and fish for information. I could also see a motivation comning from the way Cissy's distress seems to be getting under his skin. Either because of personal feelings re Cissy, or (even more speculative) if we buy the whole Snape was sorry becasue he lovbed Lily theory, because for him the circumstances of Cissy are hauntingly familiar. I would actually like the way in this case he would have boxed himself in to an eventual "hard choice" out of feelings for someone else. From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 16:11:37 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:11:37 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134845 azriona: > JKR is awfully good at deflecting, though. And she says that she > only squashes theories that really have no purpose - which to me > means she lets some theories, although wrong, continue. I think > this is one of them. I don't believe that any of the Dursleys > have magic within them. > I do agree that there was likely more than one letter to Petunia, > causing DD to say "Remember my last" and not "Remember my > letter". However, I don't think one of the letters would have > invited Dudley to Hogwarts - that would not have happened until > Dudley was eleven, at which point we would have noticed an extra > owl. > IMO, Dudley's a Muggle. Sorry. I agree, in part because in one of her interviews, JKR says almost explicitly that with Dudley, what you see is what you get. She then asked why anyone would want there to be more with Dudley in the first place. But she did make it clear that Dudley was Dudley, no more, and certainly no less. I believe this may have been one of her more current interviews, but I can't specifically recall it now. In any case, with the pattern of Harry spending less and less time at the Dursley's, coupled with the fact that he'll soon be over age, it seems a stretch that the Dursleys would play a more active role in the last book - seems to me Rowling's got enough plot points to be going along, unless she wants to write another OotP-length volume, which, of course, I wouldn't mind. Granted, Harry it seems will spend more time at places like GH and perhaps Riddle's old estate - in other words, away from Hogwarts, but I don't seem him really bringing the Dursleys into the picture. ahsonazmat From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jul 25 20:02:11 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:02:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Potions ability and "How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind" In-Reply-To: <102.65afe22a.3016933d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > >>Irene: > >> She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not > >> curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following > >> the instructions to a 't'. > >> That was very surprising, at least for me. > > > > Christina: > I completely disagree. Potions is like chemistry, or for an even > easier-to-see analogy, cooking. I see Irene's point. An exceptional chemistist or cook (dare I use the word chef) knows their chemicals/ingredients well enough and the physical properties of those chemicals/ingredients well enough that they will be able to overcome "bad instructions". So while Hermione is a mediocre to good, the HBP is an exceptional Potions student because HBP knew enough about the nature of the potions ingredients to make those potions work, in spite of the directions in the book. Let's face it, it's the exceptional chemists who are winning Nobels and are highly regarded in their fields not for how well their experiments turn out but for how well they think outside the box. Milz (who's suffered through General Chemistry, Biochemistry and a couple of cooking classes) From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 20:03:46 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:03:46 -0000 Subject: horrid thought - or maybe not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134847 Since JKR has always stated that there would be 7 books for the 7 years that Harry is at Hogwarts, I am now wondering.... Since Harry stated in book 6 he would not be going back to hogwarts, why stop at book 7? He isn't a 7th year student anymore. Why not continue the books until .....god knows when..... Part of me loves this idea and part of me hates this idea- grrrr...will WE ever KNOW?!!??? I just thought I would throw this out there. I know JKR has stated 7 books from the beginning, but Harry seems to be not a student in book 7. So....she could be stringing us along colebiancardi (who doesn't actually believe this crap she just posted, but thought it would be fun) From harrypottertheory at yahoo.com.au Mon Jul 25 16:42:40 2005 From: harrypottertheory at yahoo.com.au (harrypottertheory) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:42:40 -0000 Subject: Harry a horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134848 Has anyone considered that Harry himself may be a horcrux? DD (pg245) in Chamber suggests that Voldy "put a bit of himself" in Harry. Harry is a Parseltongue like Voldemort-usually associated with the dark side. We know Harry kept dreaming of the flash of green light produced at the time he was attacked as a baby...perhaps then Voldemort transferred some of his soul into Harry without knowing, and made him a horcrux? Perhaps this is the reason for the prophecy? --harrypottertheory From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:05:57 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725200557.55814.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134849 On the TLC site, there's the interview of Melissa and Emerson with JKR, here's what she says: MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harrys setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story? JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows well he believe he knows what hes facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort. So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do. The sentence "Dumbledore's guesses are NEVER very far wide of the mark" kinda shows me that DD is pretty much always right. JMO of course Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Mon Jul 25 19:46:25 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:46:25 -0000 Subject: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134850 Potioncat said: There must be something to > Legilimency that makes it, by itself, unreliable or unacceptable as > proof. Or simply unethical? Maybe DD would not take a 'confession' gained unethically by means of legilimency but rather choose to let the 'accused' either prove themselves in some way or own up. I suspect many of us feel that Snape has 'had it in' for Harry and maybe DD saw that and refused to allow himself to be swayed by someone who was trying their hardest to prove Harry was not the person DD trusted. Wapp13 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:18:31 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:18:31 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: <20050725200557.55814.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134851 Juli: > The sentence "Dumbledore's guesses are NEVER very far > wide of the mark" kinda shows me that DD is pretty > much always right. JMO of course Alla: I disagree, Juli. I think it is very telling that they are talking about intellectual theory, about ideas how to kill Voldemort. Sure, Dumbledore is wise man, his guesses are never very far off the mark. theory wise. But when we are talking about people, then as we saw he had been proven wrong over and over and over again. Just as previous poster, I am not quite sure why the idea that Dumbledore can be wrong again seems surprising. Don't get me wrong, if there is a reason why I don't want Snape to be ESE, then it would be the pity I feel for Dumbledore, who insisted so stubbornly over and over again that Snape IS to be trusted. Rmember that in this same interview JKR tells that Dumbledore tends to trust people to the point of recklesness. JMO, Alla. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:24:17 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:24:17 -0000 Subject: Fake Deaths (was:Re: Another Horcrux thought and RAB speculation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134852 > >>Louise Margaret Freeman: > > I also think DD's offer to fake Draco and Narcissa Malfoy's deaths > was a big hint that someone we believe dead is actually in > hiding... > Betsy Hp: I've wondered if perhaps Emmeline Vance's death was faked. Snape tells Bellatrix that his information led "to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance..." (HBP scholastic p.30). *If* Snape is still Dumbledore's man, it would make sense that he and Dumbledore might cook up a plot wherein Snape appears to bring down an Auror. (Wasn't Vance an Auror?) This might serve useful in book 7 because if Vance's death was faked, than she's someone who could speak to Snape's true loyalty. Of course, this is just speculation based upon my own "Snape is good!" bias, so YMMV. Betsy Hp From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:26:44 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050725202644.3860.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134853 > Alla: > > I disagree, Juli. I think it is very telling that > they are talking > about intellectual theory, about ideas how to kill > Voldemort. Sure, > Dumbledore is wise man, his guesses are never very > far off the mark. > theory wise. > > But when we are talking about people, then as we saw > he had been > proven wrong over and over and over again. > Rmember that in this same interview JKR tells that > Dumbledore tends > to trust people to the point of recklesness. Juli again: You got me there Alla. He's right when it comes to theories, on how to cast a spell, intellectual stuff as you said, but he's been wrong about people before, but I don't think he's wrong about Snape. I'm a half believer in Puppetmaster!Dumbledore, I believe he knows pretty much everything that happens, at least in Hogwarts, and his actions are done for a bigger purpose. I keep thinking of PS, why else would DD show Harry the "use" of the mirror of Erised if he didn't want Harry to face Quirell? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Mon Jul 25 19:56:48 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:56:48 -0000 Subject: The Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: <12b.61a47bfa.30167dfc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134854 Annette wrote: > The descriptions given previously of the fascinating clock in the > Burrow, was that of a free-standing grandfather clock > > However in HBP ch5, UKed.p87, the clock with its hands all > pointing to 'in mortal peril' was in the washing basket, and it > says earlier that Molly had taken to carrying it around with her. > > Isn't this a bit hard given the size if the thing! Except of > course it may mean just the dial, but I can't picture that ! Yes, I see what you mean. However, I suspect that the 'clock' is not really a clock but a magical device within a grandfather clock case. If you have seen grandfather clocks you may know that the 'hood', which is the part that covers the face, comes off by pulling it forwards, exposing the face and workings. I would envisage the said grandfather clock having such a system which enables the whole of the clock hood, including dial with face showing who is where, being detached together and therefore able to be carried around. Fairly large, I admit, but certainly not impossible. Hope this helps. Wapp13 From LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu Mon Jul 25 20:06:02 2005 From: LauraHerndon at mail.clayton.edu (Laura Herndon) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:06:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes Message-ID: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337518B@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 134855 colebiancardi wrote: > I think that DD messed up when he got the ring - he wasn't aware, > perhaps, of the power of a horcrux. after all, Harry destroyed the > Diary and he didn't get hurt from that. Unless, of course, Harry is > the only one that CAN destroy horcruxes. Remember that DD stated > if it wasn't for his skill & Snape's "timely action", he would be a > dead man. Does anyone recall if the book indicates exactly when Dumbledore tried to destroy the ring? I'm wondering if Snape was aware that Voldemort was intent on Dumbledore's assassination at that time. If so, Snape could have simply withheld or faked bungling his "timely action" to hasten Dumbledore's demise if Snape was truly working for Voldemort. I'm still not convinced that Snape knew of Voldemort's plan at Spinner's End. That scene was written so that he could have already known, or he could have been getting the information out of Narcissa at the time. LEH From irreality at mit.edu Mon Jul 25 20:30:04 2005 From: irreality at mit.edu (komagata_mai) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:30:04 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <014d01c59146$db29dfe0$6501a8c0@quietpc> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bex" wrote: > > Hermione is a very good student but not a risk taker. Snape, whose grasp of potioneering is brilliant in all the books, is obviously an instinctive risk taking potion maker like (Lily Evans), and Hermione's Straight laced approach was bound to get some derision from Snape. Me: I agree. Hermione worships books to some extent. She doesn't think they are wrong, in terms of information they provide (which is a naive point of view). Snape criticizes her in DADA for quoting answers straight from the book. For DADA especially, this is not a good quality, since it is ever-changing, and requires initiative and creativity to defend yourself. (Hermione got an E in DADA). She is attracted to the smell of books, and shows a certain derision to the fact that Harry is following "handwritten" instructions. Just because Hermione is the brightest student her age, does not mean she doesn't have weaknesses in the way she learns. I think of her more as the type of person who would scour the library for the answer, instead of using what she knows to figure something out. (she does do the latter, but she is more prone to waste time on the former first). Mariana (a lurker) From muellem at bc.edu Mon Jul 25 20:32:12 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:32:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: <0F4C300640723C4DB4643C979986D98337518B@io.ccsunet.clayton.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134857 > Does anyone recall if the book indicates exactly when Dumbledore tried > to destroy the ring? I'm wondering if Snape was aware that Voldemort > was intent on Dumbledore's assassination at that time. If so, Snape > could have simply withheld or faked bungling his "timely action" to > hasten Dumbledore's demise if Snape was truly working for Voldemort. well, DD had the ring on his finger when he went to pick up harry in the summer, the ring was off his finger at hogwarts and then it was gone. Seems like DD had a problem destroying the ring - maybe he didn't know how to. > > I'm still not convinced that Snape knew of Voldemort's plan at Spinner's End. That scene was written so that he could have already known, or he could have been getting the information out of Narcissa at the time. > the more I read that chapter, the more I think that Snape is getting information from Narcissa. They never speak of what Draco has to do-I know, that would be giving away too much - and it is worded carefully. colebiancardi > LEH From missmoosee at tesco.net Mon Jul 25 20:10:36 2005 From: missmoosee at tesco.net (Georgina) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:10:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Portrait Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134858 After reading some of the posts speculating DD's death I have not seen any so far (I maybe wrong...please correct me if I am) that have mentioned the fact that Harry saw his portrait arrive in the headmasters office. This surely means that he is definitly dead..and if it's so...doesn't it also mean that Harry will still be able to talk to him as all the other portraits are still there giving advice?? Georgina From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:39:46 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:39:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's grandfather, the Pure-Blood Prince (Was: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: <1da.4096f406.3016114c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134859 Sherrie wrote: > [My sister] suggested that perhaps that was Grandpa Prince, berating his daughter, and turning him into a yak wasn't an option. > > Sherrie Carol responds: I think your sister is absolutely right. First, though I sometimes doubt Harry's interpretation of events, I think he's right that the terrified child, not the hook-nosed man, is Snape. (After all, the adult Snape is standing right in front of him and he would have no trouble recognizing him.) He makes no guess regarding the identity of the man, but he assumes that the little boy, like the older boy who struggles with the broom (not for lack of magical ability but for lack of practice because he has a Muggle father?) and the teenage boy who zaps flies with his wand, is Snape. (Teenage Snape is instantly recognizable, as we know from the later Pensieve scene. There must be enough resemblance between the teenage boy and the little boy to make the child's identity unmistakable. Besides, these are Snape's memories. If the hook-nosed man isn't him, the little boy has to be. Until HBP I always assumed (like many other readers) that the abusive man was Snape's DE father, but clearly that can't be the case. But the hooked nose shows that he's a close relative, one who can cow Snape's witch mother and who must therefore be a wizard with some sort of authority or control over her. It's impossible that Snape's pure-blood grandfather would have approved of her daughter's marriage to a Muggle (whom she must have loved--there's no other explanation.) The parallel with Gaunt and Merope is clear, but with one significant difference. Tom Riddle never witnessed his wizard grandfather abusing his witch mother. Little Severus apparently did. Another reason I don't think this man is Tobias Snape is that Tobias would have dressed like a Muggle, and surely Harry would have noticed if the man in the memory wasn't dressed in wizard's robes. The man in the memory probably looks exactly like the sort of Dark wizard Harry would expect to see in a memory of Snape's childhood. Moreover, little Severus came to school already knowing more hexes than most sixth-years (some of them possibly of his own invention). This feat is wholly incompatible with an upbringing in a half-Muggle household, where the concern for a "normal" Muggle appearance would be paramount. It's hard for me to imagine Snape and his witch mother living in what was probably Tobias's house in Spinner's End. How could they have dressed and behaved as a witch and a wizard without calling attention to themselves? How could little Severus have had anything like the Slytherin upbringing that he must have had to be so precocious with a wand at such a young age, enough to become part of a Slytherin gang composed mostly of students older than himself? And wouldn't the Ministry of Magic have come after him for such extensive underage magic in a Muggle neighborhood? Possibly Grandpa Prince tracked Eileen down, taking her and little Severus away from Tobias, maybe even murdering him, when Severus was between three and five. That, at any rate, is my take on the memory, which certainly seems to be a traumatic one involving a hook-nosed man who is clearly a wizard. I think he's Severus Snape's grandfather, the Pure-blood Prince. Reactions, anyone? Carol, wondering whether the girl who laughed at Snape in the later memory is Bellatrix From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 20:41:59 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:41:59 -0000 Subject: Harry a horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrypottertheory" wrote: > Has anyone considered that Harry himself may be a horcrux? > > DD (pg245) in Chamber suggests that Voldy "put a bit of himself" in > Harry. Harry is a Parseltongue like Voldemort-usually associated with > the dark side. > > We know Harry kept dreaming of the flash of green light produced at > the time he was attacked as a baby...perhaps then Voldemort > transferred some of his soul into Harry without knowing, and made him > a horcrux? Perhaps this is the reason for the prophecy? > > --harrypottertheory Many threads have been written about this theme/variations. If you go to previous posts and find one, click "Up Thread" and you can read them either from the beginning or from the end. Hope this is helpful. Julie From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jul 25 20:59:20 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:59:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E552A8.60601@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134861 shagufta_naazpk2000 wrote: >>Actually I thought book 6 provided a very good >>explanation for why Snape hasn't treated Hermione as >>"the best student he'd ever had". >> She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not >>curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following >>the instructions to a 't'. >>That was very surprising, at least for me. >> > > Hi > i personally wouldnt call Hermione mediocre, in all the potion > classes we've seen she gets exact results, there are umpteen times we > see that she is the only one who gets her potion the exact colour and > texture that it should be. Yes, by following Snape's instructions exactly. Which is not a trivial achievement and I'm not trying to belittle it. she even helps Neville on the sly and > prevents his toad from getting poisoned. Afraid to experiment? this > is the girl who brews Polyjuice Potion in her second year, by getting > a restricted book out of the library. But it wasn't an experiment, she followed the instructions in the book. > And to cap it all, the first > time she is judged by an unbiased teacher she gets an an outstanding > in potions (im referring to her OWLs) She got top marks from the biased teacher as well, so that's not a problem. > > And as far as HBP is concerned, Hermione doesnt get anything wrong, > her potions are textbook perfect, and thats really the best a student > aims for. > > Hermione may be lots of things but mediocre.??. you got to be kidding. > > shagufta > (long time lurker) OK, maybe mediocre is a wrong word here. But in science there is a huge gap between the ability to understand and reproduce the knowledge that was created before you, and the ability to create a new knowledge. Hermione has the first ability in spades, but I'm still not sure about the second one. Again, I'm not belittling Hermione. I'm like this myself - can get top marks in any subject as long as the marks are given for analytical thinking. But I don't have the synthesis ability. So between all the fan fics about Hermione the brilliant Potions researcher, and all the posts here about Snape just being jealous of her superior potions abilities, I was a bit disappointed by HBP revelations. Irene From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:09:00 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:09:00 -0000 Subject: The Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: <12b.61a47bfa.30167dfc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CariadMel at a... wrote: > > The descriptions given previously of the fascinating clock in the > Burrow, was that of a free-standing grandfather clock( I think!) > > However in HBP ch5, UKed.p87, the clock with its hands all pointing to > 'in mortal peril' was in the washing basket, and it says earlier > that Molly had taken to carrying it around with her. > > Isn't this a bit hard given the size if the thing! Except of course it > may mean just the dial, but I can't picture that ! > Annette. bboyminn: You are right, this is an inconsistency. Here are the two mentions of the clock that I could find - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sorcerer's Stone - (sorry, no page numbers or versions) "The clock on the wall opposite him had only one hand and no numbers at all. Written around the edge were things like Time to make tea, Time to feed the chickens, and You're late. " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Goblet of Fire - Mrs. Weasley glanced at the grandfather clock in the corner. Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. It had nine golden hands, and each of them was engraved with one of the Weasley family's names. There were no numerals around the face, but descriptions of where each family member might be. "Home," "school," and "work" were there, but there was also "traveling," "lost," "hospital," "prison," and, in the position where the number twelve would be on a normal clock, "mortal peril." Eight of the hands were currently pointing to the "home" position, but Mr. Weasley's, which was the longest, was still pointing to "work." Mrs. Weasley sighed. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In the first reference, the clock is a wall clock, although we don't necessarily know if it is THE CLOCK in question. You will note that this first clock has only ONE HAND, and is filled with more general references to times and tasks. In the second reference, it clearly is the 'Mortal Peril' clock with NINE hands and it is referred to as a 'grandfather' clock. I have always suspected that there is more than one clock, but regardless of that, JKR does seem to have mixed them up. Besides, if the hands are always on Mortal Peril then what is the point of looking at it. I see no advantage to Molly carrying it around. I'm sorry to say, that while the recent book (HBP) did reveal some important information, it did move the overall story forward, and did have a couple of startling events, I didn't get the impression that is was well written. My test is how captivating the books is. Captivating implies a 'can't put it down' books. I found it very hard to stay interested, I found a lot of the dialog and narrative comfusing, and overall would certainly not rate it as the best in the series. I AM glad I bought it and I am glad I read it (twice), and I fully intend to follow the series to it's end. But, in general, I found the story a little flat and hurried. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. Steve/bboyminn From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jul 25 21:12:59 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:12:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Potions ability and "How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind" In-Reply-To: <102.65afe22a.3016933d@aol.com> References: <102.65afe22a.3016933d@aol.com> Message-ID: <42E555DB.7030209@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134863 Nanagose at aol.com wrote: >>>Irene: >>> She is in fact a mediocre Potions student, not >>>curious, afraid to experiment, only good in following >>>the instructions to a 't'. >>>That was very surprising, at least for me. >> > > Christina: > I completely disagree. Potions is like chemistry, or for an even > easier-to-see analogy, cooking. That's an excellent analogy. Now, I think I'm a competent cook. Give me a good recipe to follow, and I'll produce a good result. I know the techniques described in most recipes, and can follow some advanced recipes, which lots of people would ruin. However, I don't have an ounce of creativity. Give me a list of ingredients and ask me to come up with an idea - I'm not at all sure the result would be any good. So Hermione is a competent student, just not a brilliant one. I can see why JKR did it for the plot's sake, but it was surprising from Hermione's fan point of view. Irene From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 21:15:38 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:15:38 -0000 Subject: Prophecy misinterpretation?/Oho! in The Cave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134864 Cheryl, your theory is the coolest I've heard in ages; I can't believe how well you make the prophecy fit Snape! The "power the Dark Lord knows not" would have to be Occlumency. I've wondered before why Voldemort trusts Snape, whatever evidence has been offered, if he knows Snape is an accomplished Occlumens who can hide his true feelings. Maybe that's our answer-- LV *doesn't* know. As for "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal", it seems problematic either way. I don't see why a lightening-bolt scar and the gift of Parseltongue qualifies as having been marked as LV's equal. But I can't imagine Voldie giving "equal" status to Snape either, even after he AKs Dumbledore (hey, Snape had help-- Malfoy had already disarmed the weakened DD.) So that part of the prophecy doesn't fit perfectly either way. Maybe we're supposed to accept that things like scars can count as being marked as an equal. That being the case, let's watch to see if LV awards Snape with any kind of special mark or power or shiny new medal in Book 7. :) In OOtP, we're told that you can only pick up a prophecy from the MoM storehouse if it applies to you. In that case, Snape and not Harry should have had the power to do it. Buuuuut... if it's the Ministry of Magic that decide who the prophecies pertain to, and they work their own separate bit of magic to fix them to the shelves, then what matters isn't who the prophecy is really about, but who the Ministry think it's about. So it can all fit! If Cheryl's theory is right, she will be honored above all others. :) -oiboyz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jul 25 21:22:58 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:22:58 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <42E552A8.60601@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IreneMikhlin wrote: > OK, maybe mediocre is a wrong word here. But in science there is a huge > gap between the ability to understand and reproduce the knowledge that > was created before you, and the ability to create a new knowledge. > Hermione has the first ability in spades, but I'm still not sure about > the second one. > I'm with you here all the way. I saw this flaw in Hermione since the PS/SS. Hermione is clever in that she has "book smarts" and is no doubt a good test taker. But when she's without the books, without the instructions, she falls apart as HBP has shown. As I wrote in another message, HBP was able to figure out how to improve the book instructions to get the results. If you truly know what you are doing, bad or lacking instructions won't stop you. I once read in a NY Times article that described the difference between a cook and a chef. A cook is someone who follows the recipe. However, if something goes wrong, a cook won't be able to improvise and compensate to get the perfect result. A chef will be able to compensate and improvise to get the final result no matter what, because a chef is more knowledgeable about the ingredients, cooking methods, etc. HBP has shown us that Hermione lacks this skill---she's only as good as her books, which is unfortunate because books have flaws too. Her ability to think outside the box is limited. This is usually due to a lack of creativity or a lack of real understanding of the material (that is, understanding beyond memorizing and regurgitating information). Also, I might add that the information about Lily is purely speculative---it's from Slughorn who is doing his slimiest best to ingratitate himself with Harry. Slughorn's own attempt to alter the penseive, shows what that he's an opportunist and will do anything to improve his image. By the way, I'm not saying that Sluggy is lying about Lily's abilities. I'm saying that it's more likely that he's exaggerating Lily's abilities in order to kiss Harry's ass. And there's a touch of racism and sexism in Sluggy's platitudes. When I read it I got the feeling that his compliments were double edged: Lily was very good in Potions (for a Muggle born or for a woman). James and Sirius were the precursors to Fred and George, and we can see the brilliance of the Weasley twins in their creative and innovative magical jokes. Milz From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:24:47 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:24:47 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134866 Laura Walsh wrote: "But it is interesting that Hermione doesn't experiment with potions. She follows instructions exactly and she gets good results, but she doesn't come up with her own formulations." Del replies: 1. One major basis of true creativity is knowledge. One can't break the rules without first knowing them. One can't transcend what they don't know. Hermione is, very appropriately, learning the rules *first*. 2. I don't see anyone else experimenting with their Potions either. Especially not Harry, who is only doing the very same thing Hermione is doing: following the instructions in a book. 3. Potions are *dangerous*. Experimenting with them can lead to all sorts of results, including permanent incapacitation or death. I understand that Hermione wouldn't be in a hurry to experiment. Especially considering what happened to her when she made an extremely minor mistake while concocting the Polyjuice Potion: for having used a cat hair instead of a human hair, she was turned into some rather monstruous creature for weeks. 4. Maybe Hermione hasn't invented something entirely new yet, but she *has* showed creativity in using what she knows. The Protean Charm she put on the DA Galleons, the Sneak Jinx that nobody has managed to break, those are not exactly textbook charms, are they? Laura Walsh wrote: "In fact, in the whole series, we see remarkably few students experimenting with new magic. Fred and George are arguably the most adept at it. But we don't see most students come up with new charms, new ways to transfigure, new curses, new defenses, etc. " Del replies: Remember Eloise Midgeon, who tried to curse her acne off and ended up without a nose? *That* is the reason many students don't fool around with magic, IMO. Moreover, the students are just that, students. It is *extremely* rare for a Muggle high school student to invent something that isn't already in the books. Why should things be any different at Hogwarts? Laura Walsh wrote: "The example of the Polyjuice Potion isn't really a counter-argument to this. She was willing to make it, and she was very good at making it, but she didn't change it one iota. She followed the instructions exactly." Del replies: No she didn't. It was involuntary, granted, but she did NOT follow the instructions exactly, and she ended up paying a high price for that. I have no problem imagining that this would persuade her to stick to the recipe very closely from then on. Laura Walsh wrote: "The outstanding on her OWLs is also not a counterexample, as, again, this simply shows that she is excellent at following and remembering instructions." Del replies: Well, that's already good, don't you think? At least *she* got an O at this OWL, unlike some other people. Laura Walsh wrote: "The OWLs didn't ask them to concoct an entirely new potions that would make the drinker's hair turn into feathers or something like that. " Del replies: No, it didn't, because as 5th-years, they are apparently not *supposed* to be inventing new stuff. I think the examiners have better things to do than putting right all the horrible results of the students' experimentation. Laura Walsh wrote: "I wouldn't call her mediocre for not experimenting - just cautious." Del replies: Yes, but at least *she* is learning all the bases, so that she *will* be able to experiment later if she chooses to. Ron won't, for sure, and I doubt Harry will ever be able to invent anything new except in DADA. I find it a bit absurd to criticise Hermione for following the instructions in a book, when *nobody* around her is doing any better. Everybody else is doing exactly the same thing, including Harry. And Hermione is easily the best at following instructions, remembering principles and applying her knowledge. When the time came for Harry to show some creativity by inventing a composite antidote, he was completely lost. He was saved only by the bezoar twist, but as far as concocting an antidote potion goes, he was dreadful, and Hermione wasn't. Harry could never have concocted that antidote for the Love Potion that Ron accidently took, while I'm sure that Hermione could have done it. Just because whoever wrote those annotations in the HBP book was a true genius at Potions (or had had a LOT of practice), doesn't mean that anyone else should be. Harry is a natural at flying, but he doesn't expect anyone else to be. So I say let's recognise Hermione's amazing abilities, and let's stop asking her to be even more of a genius than she already is. Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 21:29:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:29:37 -0000 Subject: The Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboyminn: > > You are right, this is an inconsistency. > > Here are the two mentions of the clock that I could find - > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Sorcerer's Stone - (sorry, no page numbers or versions) > > "The clock on the wall opposite him had only one hand and no numbers > at all. Written around the edge were things like Time to make tea, > Time to feed the chickens, and You're late. " > Geoff: Sorry, you've got the wrong book. It's COS "The Burrow" p.31 UK edition. > Goblet of Fire - > > Mrs. Weasley glanced at the grandfather clock in the corner. Harry > liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the > time, but otherwise very informative. Geoff: For completeness, this is GOF "Mayhem at the Ministry" p.135 UK edition From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:31:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:31:20 -0000 Subject: Ugly equals evil? (was:Re: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134868 > >>Wanda: > Hey, I'll stop as soon as Rowlings stops! But I'm not making up > the rules in this game, SHE is, and she has shown a consistent > pattern of making ugly females also evil or dislikable ones. > Similarly, the most beautiful women are also the nicest: > > >>Colebiancardi: > yep, LOL. Rowling does that a lot. However, Luna is no beauty - > isn't she plain? And she is a good witch :) And is Merope such > an evil person? She did a love potion, but that is not a dark > art. > colebiancardi(still wishing Rowling wouldn't make things either > pretty/good & ugly/evil) Betsy Hp: Actually, I've not found that to be the case. Beautiful does *not* equal good in JKR's world. A prime example is the devastantingly handsome Tom Riddle. (Does Harry ever skip an opportunity to describe him as good looking?) The Black sisters are another good example. Both Bellatrix and Narcissa are described as quite beautiful, and yet they're both very much Death Eaters. (Narcissa loves and wishes to protect her son, but she's also *very* interested in Dumbledore dying. And she was directly involved in the plan that led to Sirius's death.) Actually, what I've found interesting is that very few characters are ever described as good looking. Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, Fleur, the Black sisters, Sirius, Cho, Cedric, Blaise, Ginny and possibly Lily are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. And there's a fairly even distribution of good and evil and neutral folk on that list. We can only guess that Hermione and Ron and Harry are attractive because they've got admirers, and of course, Harry as hero should be attractive according to the rules of the genre. But generally, JKR's descriptors are not all that flattering. Even with the good guys. Betsy Hp From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:35:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:35:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Georgina" wrote: > After reading some of the posts speculating DD's death I have not > seen any so far ... that have mentioned the fact that Harry saw his > portrait arrive in the headmasters office. This surely means that > he is definitly dead..and if it's so...doesn't it also mean that > Harry will still be able to talk to him as all the other portraits > are still there giving advice?? > > Georgina bboyminn: Actually, Dumbledore's protrait was mentioned today, although I'm not sure who mentioned it. None the less, I think you are right, the appearance of Dumbledore's protrait is a sure sign that he is dead. It's true Harry can talk to Dumbledore's portrait and certainly he can gain some insight and information, but let's remember that the portraits are not a duplicate of the original person, they are a representation, much, as I have always claimed, like an actor playing a role. The portraits do have a good handle on the original character and may even carry some of the original knowledge and information of the original character, but when probed at depth, they will fall far short of duplicating the original. They will certainly have the personality of the original, but they will lack the intellectual and emotional depth. JKR discussed this in relation to Sirius's death and the likelihood of him re-entering the story as a portrait, although, I'm having trouble locationg a reference at the moment. Just a quick note. Steve/bboyminn From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jul 25 21:35:45 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:35:45 +0100 Subject: Slughorn and Lily was Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E55B31.20202@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134870 Milz wrote: > Also, I might add that the information about Lily is purely > speculative---it's from Slughorn who is doing his slimiest best to > ingratitate himself with Harry. Slughorn's own attempt to alter the > penseive, shows what that he's an opportunist and will do anything to > improve his image. > > By the way, I'm not saying that Sluggy is lying about Lily's > abilities. I'm saying that it's more likely that he's exaggerating > Lily's abilities in order to kiss Harry's ass. But if he was just trying to get closer to Harry, wouldn't he be raving about Harry's brilliant dad, as everyone else does? I found it very refreshing that somebody remembers Lily for a change. Irene From prep0strus at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:38:54 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:38:54 -0000 Subject: Back to the Well / Will Harry Ever Learn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Todd C. Truffin" wrote: So, HP gets hold > of an old tattered book that starts giving him information that no > one else has. The information begins innocently enough and > progresses to darker and darker material. When HP reveals the book > to his pals, Ginny rather wisely asks "Did I hear you right? You've > been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?" > (182, UK childrens). And HP continues using the book and defending > its author? > I think Harry definately IS sometimes headstrong and oblivious... but I think he also makes a good point that this is a different situation. He was definatley a bit to cavalier about the spells he found contained in the book, but it doesn't fit into Mrs. Weasley's 'Don't trust anything if you can't see its brain' rule. This book wasn't magic in itself - it had notes from a former student. Notes that even now would probably be pretty useful for the learning of potions. And I kind've understand Harry's reluctance to listen to the others. They were all much more reluctant in this book to listen to him. In the past Hermione was more likely to pick up on subtle clues about Draco, and Ron would want to blame him for anything... Harry was a little more on his own, and probably less likely to listen to his friends when they weren't really listening to him. It's true that JKR could've maybe chosen a different way to show us who the Half-Blood Prince was - having two books in the series center around... books... is a little redundant. But the situations were different in a lot of ways. What I'm really curious about is why Harry is able to do spells correctly on the first try, without even having a clue how to do them, and yet has to practice hundreds of times to learn spells for his classes. I always figured it was because it's more than simply saying the words - you had to get your mind in the right frame of mind for each spell, and if you're not, it doesn't work, or doesn't work all the way. But here we see Harry doing spells with no practice, just by speaking the words. He should be able to pass charms without even going to class. ~Prep0strus From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:44:21 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:44:21 -0000 Subject: The Ultimate Snape Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134872 The Ultimate Snape Theory by Tonks: I think that Snape heard the first (or last) part of the prophesy. He was not in love with Lily. LV would never have spared anyone for that reason. Snape would have been a fool to show that he cared for Lily, even if he did, which I don't think that he did. (My theory is that Snape loves Narcissa.) When Snape finds out that LV is going to kill James and Snape has a life debit to James, this scares Snape. There is some serious bad, bad magic that happen when you have a life debit to someone and then that person is killed because of something that you have done. It may be some sort of a cursed life, like one gets from drinking the blood of a unicorn. So in order to save himself, Snape goes to James and tries to warn him, but James doesn't believe him. Maybe then Snape tricks LV by suggest to LV that the *really* evil thing to do would be to allow the parents to live so that they would suffer day in and day out because of the lost of their child. And LV being the nasty EVIL dude that he is, agrees. His plan is to kill just Harry. When he gets to the house James puts up a fight and is killed. Lily doesn't have a wand and doesn't fight, so she didn't have to die. And we know the rest of that story. James is dead, and Snape is in a bad, bad way. LV appears gone. Snape thinks "how can I get out of this?" What Snape really wants is to save himself. Somehow he knows that DD can help him out of this terrible situation. And DD does. There is something that DD does to help Snape and Snape makes a promise not to return to the Dark Side. This is the reason that DD trust Snape. If Snape returns to the Dark side he is really, really .. (well you know .) And as part of his deal with DD Snape must protect Harry. Maybe DD did some sort of ancient magic that transferred the life debit that Snape had with James to Harry. But if Snape messes up this time, well let's just say it will not be a pretty thing. LV's fate will seem like a picnic in comparison. It therefore follows that Snape is still acting on DD's orders. He still has a choice, of course, he always has a *choice*, but the options are now between a rock and a hard place as the saying goes. Now Snape is a wanted man, maybe even more so than LV. Snape is still bond to protect Harry while seeming to be a loyal DE. Not a good position for poor old Snape to be in, but there you have it. Think of the title of the second chapter of HBP, Spinners End. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive, certainly seems to apply here! Tonks_op From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Jul 25 21:48:01 2005 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:48:01 -0000 Subject: JKR's answer to "Was Snape ever loved?" In-Reply-To: <20050723121859.22737.qmail@web54710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134873 --- Miss Melanie wrote: > I guess I just never thought I would be so hurt by the > idea that Snape is just evil. That mean people are not > ambiguous. That you know there aren't shades of gray in > the potter universe. The idea kills me. I didn't expect > me, a person who has never defended Snape to take the idea > of him being evil so hard. The idea that Snape is evil doesn't equate with his being loyal to Voldemort. (As Sirius said, the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.) I don't take Rowling's interview comments as walking away from that distinction -- on the question of what happened between Snape and Dumbledore, she pretty specifically said it was a line of speculation she wanted to encourage. Even on the earlier question about whether Snape is "evil" she was hardly categorical. We all agree that there are things Snape has done to Harry et al. that we would not want to see a teacher do to our children. I think Rowling has -- so far -- left plenty of room for Snape to be a man of his word (well, to Dumbledore at least), even if he is morally dubious in his treatment of others. Snape can be "more culpable" than Voldemort -- in that he has done terrible things despite having experienced love -- without being Voldemort's equal in the scope of his misdeeds. -- Matt From buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 21:00:31 2005 From: buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com (buckbeak1391) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:00:31 -0000 Subject: Harry is not a horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134874 I think that the prophecy eliminates the theory the Harry is a horcrux. In the prophecy, it says that "neither can live while the other survives". If Harry was Voldy's horcrux, Voldy could only survive if his Horcruxes existed, including Harry. If all were destroyed, that would make him much more vulerable, and NOT unstoppable. Buckbeak From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Mon Jul 25 21:53:41 2005 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:53:41 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134875 SPOILERS I don't know if anyone else in Canada (or elsewhere!) read Andre Alexis' review of HBP in Saturday's Globe and Mail Book section, but some of what he says has been bothering me, and I'd like to hear the list's reaction. I'm sure most of you don't set much store by newspaper reviews of the Potter books--I doubt a bad review would stop any of you reading it--but I'm interested in what others have had to say about HBP, and found this review particularly compelling, since the Globe published a front-page mini-review on July 16, and was rapped on the knuckles for it by the silly injunction brought about by those 14 people in BC for whom July 16 came a few days early. The Globe was pretty ardent in supporting the new book--but this review wouldn't make a non-fan run out and buy it. Some of this may have already been discussed--I haven't had time to read all the posts--but Alexis spends a good part of his review discussing DD's death, and how little it moved him, and how he suspects that DD isn't dead at all--and hopes that he's right. Now, it's why he hopes he's right that bothers me. It's not out of any great love for DD--in fact, he seems to think that all of JKR's adult characters are rather one dimensional. He says, for example, that "DD has never been much beyond a cardboard cut-out with the word 'wise' written on it." He goes on to note that DD's death was "as suspicious as Gandalf's was in TFOTR"--and then suggests that DD's death is "pivotal" to evaluating JKR's work. Because, for Alexis, "[i]f DD is dead, then the character has been (all along) nothing more than a prop, not at all wise or clever, and his death a rather cheap effort to elicit emotion. On the other hand, if DD is still alive, then he has finally acted in a way that confirms his vaunted skill as a magician and his powers of imagination." However, JKR has come down quite firmly about this vis a vis Sirius's death (and James and Lilly's for that matter). She says that once you're dead, you're dead--no crossed fingers, &c. For DD to "pull a Gandalf" would seem to me to be a cheap parlour trick, and would seriously lessen the entire Potter series in my eyes. I'm willing to accept, hard as it is, that DD is gone for good, and that Harry now had to rely on his own instincts, rather than letting DD confirm his actions (as he does a lot in HBP). Giving DD that drink tho' it was clearly killing him was one of the hardest things we have see Harry do thus far--and he have seen him do some hard stuff--but it shows that Harry can stand on his own when he needs to. Moreover, I keep in mind two details from *PS*--1. That Ron sacrificed himself in the chess match so that Harry could carry on--DD seems to have to do the same thing here, I think because Harry can't hide behind DD when the final encounter with LV arrives. 2. DD himself doesn't fear death, and sees it as "the next great adventure"--surely DD wouldn't muck around with fooling everyone into thinking he's dead. DD doesn't work that way. He has suffered in the past, and his sufferings have all been quite real. But does anyone else out there share Alexis' point of view? I'll grant that he's not one of the Potter faithful--I wouldn't call his review a rave, tho' he does say it's readable, and "more compelling" that GOF or OOP. Cheers Noel. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Jul 25 21:55:11 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:55:11 -0000 Subject: Ugly equals evil? (was:Re: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > Actually, I've not found that to be the case. Beautiful does *not* > equal good in JKR's world. A prime example is the devastantingly > handsome Tom Riddle. (Does Harry ever skip an opportunity to > describe him as good looking?) The Black sisters are another good > example. Both Bellatrix and Narcissa are described as quite > beautiful, and yet they're both very much Death Eaters. (Narcissa > loves and wishes to protect her son, but she's also *very* > interested in Dumbledore dying. And she was directly involved in > the plan that led to Sirius's death.) > > Actually, what I've found interesting is that very few characters > are ever described as good looking. Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, > Fleur, the Black sisters, Sirius, Cho, Cedric, Blaise, Ginny and > possibly Lily are the only ones I can remember off the top of my > head. And there's a fairly even distribution of good and evil and > neutral folk on that list. Hickengruendler: Don't forget the very handsome Gilderoy Lockhart. He would be very disappointed now. > We can only guess that Hermione and Ron and Harry are attractive > because they've got admirers, and of course, Harry as hero should be > attractive according to the rules of the genre. But generally, > JKR's descriptors are not all that flattering. Even with the good > guys. > > Betsy Hp Hickengruendler: I partly agree with you. Saying that all the evil characters are ugly, or that all the beautiful characters are good, is wrong and would do JKR injustice. However, I still can see where Wanda is coming from, it has to do with two of JKR's technics. 1: The parodistic characters Umbridge, Rita and the Dursleys for example, are caricatures. Surely we can see their behaviour in everydaylife, but they are overdrawn on purpose. And in this case, the extreme ugliness doesn't reflect the evil- or at least pettiness of the characters, but it is another method to show them as caricatures. Trelawney as well, though she isn't quite as unpleasant as the ones mentioned above. On the flip side we have Gilderoy Lockhart, who isn't taken to be serious as well, but in whose case it is important that he's beautiful. 2: The description of the background characters While I agree with you point above, that good and evil characters are both, ugly and beautiful, this is not true for the Background characters. All the Death Eaters, who don't play a major or semi- major part in the plot, are ugly and fat and mostly dim, this already starts with MacNair, the executioner, although he had a semi-major part in at least one book. The same is true for most of the background Slytherins. Here I think it is obvious, that JKR doesn't have the time to develop those characters as well, therefore they are in looks and characteristic exactly the same, and in fact not quite unlike Tolkien's Orks (except that they are still human). In fact, the first minor Death Eater were she broke that rule, is the werewolf Greyback, who is awful as well, and I think also looks ugly as well, but who is that scary and horrible, that in spite of his minor screentime he overshadows the other Death Eaters. Hickengruendler From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 25 21:55:33 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:55:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's grandfather, the Pure-Blood Prince (Was: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134877 Carol responds: > Until HBP I always assumed (like many other readers) that the abusive > man was Snape's DE father, but clearly that can't be the case. But the > hooked nose shows that he's a close relative, one who can cow Snape's > witch mother and who must therefore be a wizard with some sort of > authority or control over her. Potioncat: I think you're right; he's a relative. But I'm not convinced it is not Snape's father. Of course, I'm not convinced it is his father either. Granted, it's hard to understand how a witch could cower before a Muggle. Carol: It's impossible that Snape's pure-blood > grandfather would have approved of her daughter's marriage to a Muggle > (whom she must have loved--there's no other explanation.) The parallel > with Gaunt and Merope is clear, but with one significant difference. > Tom Riddle never witnessed his wizard grandfather abusing his witch > mother. Little Severus apparently did. Potioncat: But Hermione found a wedding announcement. How are those done in Britain? In the US, the bride's family submits the announcement. The fact that it was short could mean the family didn't approve, but accepted it. Or could mean it was a very small, simple wedding. It's interesting that something about the announcement makes it clear that the groom was a Muggle. Why do you think they did that? (I know why JKR did that, I'm wondering about the family.) Or do you think Eileen put it in, to spite her family? At any rate, it was public knowledge. >Carol: > Another reason I don't think this man is Tobias Snape is that Tobias > would have dressed like a Muggle, and surely Harry would have noticed > if the man in the memory wasn't dressed in wizard's robes. Potioncat: This is a good point, but I'm not sure. And doesn't it say man and woman, not wizard and witch? ...I also find it odd that Harry doesn't recognise Eileen when he sees her picture...at least on a "she looks familiar" basis. To be honest, I'm starting to believe this is Sevvie's baby-sitter and her boyfriend. >Carol: > Possibly Grandpa Prince tracked Eileen down, taking her and little > Severus away from Tobias, maybe even murdering him, when Severus was > between three and five. That, at any rate, is my take on the memory, > which certainly seems to be a traumatic one involving a hook-nosed man > who is clearly a wizard. I think he's Severus Snape's grandfather, the > Pure-blood Prince. Potioncat: Well, although it seemed reasonable when I was reading to think Spinner's End is Snape's childhood home, we don't know it is. It sounds like the place where teen (17, I'll bet, waiting for 7th year to start) Severus is shooting down flies. What is the chance he came into the property that year, but didn't grow up there? He grew up in his Grandfather's house. As the little Half-blood Prince. And given that Hermione didn't find any other Prince students at Hogwarts, Eileen may have been the last of her family. So yes, Hook- nose could be Grandpa Prince. (And as soon as I wrote Hook-nosed, I thought of Captain Hook) Sorry, I've also thought the man was a tall Rumplestilskin. (sp) He helped Eileen "spin" gold for the king and she promised him her first born son. Now he's come back for the boy. Can't make it fit canon. Eileen is Irish for Helen which means light. So does Lucius. Potioncat, who doesn't remember if she intended to agree with or disagree with Carol. From christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 21:54:18 2005 From: christopherauk at yahoo.co.uk (christopher) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:54:18 -0000 Subject: When Dumbledore drank the potion (spoilers for HBP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134878 When Dumbledore was drinking the potion in the cave, some of his lines in my opinion seem to refelect what was happening at the school during the DE attack. Also some lines seem to reflect what happened in the death scene as well. Here are some examples: 'Don't hurt them, please, its my fault hurt me instead' If Dumbeldore was witnessing the attack at the school,would he possibly be thinking that. Also the line'Kill me!' Could be linked to the fact that Snapekilled Dumbeldore soon afterwards. christopherauk From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 22:08:32 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:08:32 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134879 Mariana wrote: "Hermione worships books to some extent. She doesn't think they are wrong, in terms of information they provide (which is a naive point of view). " Del replies: Not true. We've seen Hermione doubt books before, the biggest example being her harsh criticism of "Hogwarts: a History", for not mentioning House-elves. Hermione doesn't worship books. She loves the knowledge they bring her, she loves being able to find answers to her questions. But saying she worships books, or that she doesn't think they can be wrong, is too much. Even 11-year-old Hermione knew that there were more important things than books, or more important qualities than cleverness. Mariana wrote: "Snape criticizes her in DADA for quoting answers straight from the book. For DADA especially, this is not a good quality, since it is ever-changing, and requires initiative and creativity to defend yourself. (Hermione got an E in DADA)." Del replies: First off, E is NOT a bad mark. It stands for "Exceeds Expectations", remember? And secondly, just because Hermione can quote answers straight from the book does NOT mean that she can't ALSO have initiative and creativity. Do not make the classical mistake of opposing book-learning and practical applications. Those two go together, they are not opposed. Now we do happen to know that Hermione doesn't show as much initiative and creativity in DADA as *Harry*. But so what?? Just because she isn't as good as Harry does not mean she isn't extremely good still. Comparing anyone to the best is pointless. If we do that, then Ginny is a bad flier, because she doesn't fly as well as Harry, who is a natural. Silly. And finally, I completely disagree that book-learning is not a good quality in DADA. Harry himself learned nearly all his jinxes and curses and whatever from books! And the rest from professors. I can't remember Harry inventing a *single* new charm or jinx in DADA. Feel free to refresh my memory if I'm wrong. So book-learning definitely IS a good thing in DADA as in everywhere else. Otherwise, why would Sirius and Lupin have offered *DADA books* to Harry on Christmas?? Mariana wrote: "She is attracted to the smell of books, and shows a certain derision to the fact that Harry is following "handwritten" instructions. " Del replies: Again, not true. Hermione isn't objecting to the fact that the instructions are hand-written. She is objecting to the fact that they don't know *who* wrote them. That's not the same thing at all. Mariana wrote: "Just because Hermione is the brightest student her age, does not mean she doesn't have weaknesses in the way she learns. I think of her more as the type of person who would scour the library for the answer, instead of using what she knows to figure something out. (she does do the latter, but she is more prone to waste time on the former first)." Del replies: I couldn't disagree more. First, Hermione does not "waste time" scouring the library. Just ask Harry and Ron how grateful they are for the time and energy she spends researching books, and you'll see that *they* don't consider that time as wasted. Rightfully so too: researching is as integral part of inventing and creating. Second, Hermione *does* use what she knows to figure other things out. In fact, she does that *much more* than either boys. She is usually the one who manages to put 2 and 2 together. And Harry heavily depends on her for that. Milz wrote: "But when she's without the books, without the instructions, she falls apart as HBP has shown." Del replies: Huh? What are you referring to? Are you referring to the fact that Hermione systematically came second (only...) to Harry in Potions? In that case, let me remind you that Harry was NOT inventing anything: he was simply following a better book. Milz wrote: "As I wrote in another message, HBP was able to figure out how to improve the book instructions to get the results. If you truly know what you are doing, bad or lacking instructions won't stop you." Del replies: I don't remember that we have any clue as to how long it took the HBP to figure out the improvements. No matter how much Slughorn keeps harping about how Lily was a natural, I still don't see why we should assume that whoever the HBP was just stood in front of their cauldron and invented the improvements instantly. For all we know, those improvements came after months and months of research. Milz wrote: "I once read in a NY Times article that described the difference between a cook and a chef. A cook is someone who follows the recipe. However, if something goes wrong, a cook won't be able to improvise and compensate to get the perfect result. A chef will be able to compensate and improvise to get the final result no matter what, because a chef is more knowledgeable about the ingredients, cooking methods, etc." Del replies: You say so yourself: more *knowledgeable*. As far as knowledge goes, Hermione comes way out on top of Harry or anyone else in their class. She *knows* her stuff by heart. Nobody else does. If anyone in their class is to become a "chef", it will be Hermione, because she alone truly masters her subjects. Milz wrote: "HBP has shown us that Hermione lacks this skill---she's only as good as her books, which is unfortunate because books have flaws too. Her ability to think outside the box is limited. This is usually due to a lack of creativity or a lack of real understanding of the material (that is, understanding beyond memorizing and regurgitating information)." Del replies: Maybe, but HBP has also shown us that even with those "flaws", Hermione is still way better off than anyone else! *Nobody else* is as good as she is. She knows more than any of them. And when it comes to concocting the composite antidote, she is the one most at ease. And once again I'll point out that Harry did NOT come up with the bezoar on his own. He READ it. In a BOOK... Just like he learned his DADA jinxes in BOOKS... Del From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Jul 25 22:11:05 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:11:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E56379.8030402@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134880 delwynmarch wrote: > > Del replies: > Yes, but at least *she* is learning all the bases, so that she *will* > be able to experiment later if she chooses to. Ron won't, for sure, > and I doubt Harry will ever be able to invent anything new except in DADA. I'm not criticising her, and I'm not saying Harry is a better Potions student than her. In fact, Harry was a right little cheat in that book. :-) > > I find it a bit absurd to criticise Hermione for following the > instructions in a book, when *nobody* around her is doing any better. > Everybody else is doing exactly the same thing, including Harry. And > Hermione is easily the best at following instructions, remembering > principles and applying her knowledge. When the time came for Harry to > show some creativity by inventing a composite antidote, he was > completely lost. He was saved only by the bezoar twist, but as far as > concocting an antidote potion goes, he was dreadful, and Hermione > wasn't. And what about not understanding the (very straightforward) third law? Jeez, boy, grow some brain. ;-) > So I say let's recognise Hermione's > amazing abilities, and let's stop asking her to be even more of a > genius than she already is. I love her. It's just before book 6 there were these arguments, would Snape be a better teacher for advanced students. And people used Hermione as an argument for why he would not. Well, for me book 6 answered the question why Snape did not consider her a brilliant Potions student, and wasn't impressed by books memorised. Irene From tish at morticia.50megs.com Mon Jul 25 21:45:53 2005 From: tish at morticia.50megs.com (tishytrouble) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:45:53 -0000 Subject: horrid thought - or maybe not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134881 colebiancardi wrote: > Since JKR has always stated that there would be 7 books for the 7 > years that Harry is at Hogwarts, I am now wondering.... > > Since Harry stated in book 6 he would not be going back to hogwarts, > why stop at book 7? He isn't a 7th year student anymore. Why not > continue the books until .....god knows when..... I think Harry will go back to Hogwarts, because something will happen in the Summer Holidays to make it so. JKR has always stated only seven books and has reiterated that in a recent interview (can't remember where I read it), she planned 7 books from the start, and much as we might like there to be more.. I don't think so somehow! Tish From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 22:32:59 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:32:59 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > I'm with you here all the way. I saw this flaw in Hermione since the > PS/SS. Hermione is clever in that she has "book smarts" and is no > doubt a good test taker. But when she's without the books, without > the instructions, she falls apart as HBP has shown. There have been many occasions in the series when Hermione used some of her book smarts to do something that neither Ron nor Harry could do because of their relative ignorance. Think back to some of the traps that were set on the way to the COS, or her coming up with the idea of using Polyjuice Potion, or the clever SNEAK hex that she used on Marietta, for example. But while I haven't compiled a complete list of the occasions, my sense is that they are becoming less frequent as the trio gets older and experience begins to grow in importance. Still, I cannot agree that Hermione "falls apart" without the instructions, as you have said. Ersatz Harry, who would adore Hermione if we were the same age From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 22:35:37 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:35:37 -0000 Subject: Ugly equals evil? (was:Re: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > Actually, I've not found that to be the case. Beautiful does *not* > equal good in JKR's world. A prime example is the devastantingly > handsome Tom Riddle. (Does Harry ever skip an opportunity to > describe him as good looking?) The Black sisters are another good > example. Both Bellatrix and Narcissa are described as quite > beautiful, and yet they're both very much Death Eaters. Someone will, I'm sure, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think canon provides any evidence that Narcissa is a Death Eater. Nasty enough, certainly, but not necessarily a DE. Ersatz Harry From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 25 22:40:47 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:40:47 -0000 Subject: Students and Sex at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134884 One passage in the HBP that struck me as odd was in chapter 25 (pp. 535- 36 in the US ed.) when Ginny told the trio about Romilda's question about whether Harry had a tattoo on his chest. None of the four seemed surprised even though to answer that question Ginny would have had to have seen Harry without a shirt on. Granted, Ginny lied to Romilda but the question of whether she saw Harry without a shirt was still open. And if we add the discussion here from a few months ago about what the students wear under their robes ? well, I think you see where I'm going with this. So what do you think, folks? Is JKR suggesting sex? (JKR would be very delicate on the subject of sex. Notice that we never even hear any of the students actually swear ? JKR just says after the fact that so and so swore.) Richard Jones From easimm at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 22:42:19 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:42:19 -0000 Subject: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > ...It doesn't seem in character that Dumbledore would ask anyone to > split his soul and become a murderer under any circumstances... Snorky replies: Is it murder if you are in a war, and you have to kill someone on your side to hide your major weapon? In World War II, Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the UK, allowed the city of Coventry to be bombed by the Germans, and thousands of people died, all to preserve the secret that the Brits had decifered the German code. I don't know much of war history, but I bet there are cases where someone directly killed someone on their side for something very important, with the victim's previous consent. Eggplant wrote: > ...if Snape did discover something useful about Voldemort who in > the Order could he tell about it, who would believe him? ... > Dumbledore would have to be crazy not to let Harry in on the plan, > if Harry saw Snape murder him Dumbledore must have known him well > enough to know Harry would move heaven and earth to kill Snape or > die in the attempt. Snorky replies: His role could now be one of subtle sabotage and misinformation. We don't know whether Dumbledore left something behind for informing the next-in-line OOTP leader that if Snape killed Dumbledore, it was on Dumbledore's orders. Also, by watching Snape kill Dumbledore, Harry didn't feel responsible for weakening Dumbledore so badly that he was probably dying. (I got that last explanation from a few other messages.) As usual, Dumbledore chose not to enlighten Harry much about what Snape was doing - Dumbledore hadn't gotten over his old habit of being secretive. And as for letting Harry in on the plan, I don't think there was a real plan. Perhaps it was a case of "If the worst happens and you have to kill me to survive and keep your cover, then kill me!" Also, as someone else pointed out, if Snape hadn't AK'd Dumbledore, Snape would have died as the result of not following through on the last bit of his unbreakeable vow. As for Dumbledore worrying about Snape, Dumbledore knows Harry is capable of holding back his revenge because he showed that he could when he saved Wormtail's life (although I might be just a little bit worried if I were Snape!) -Snorky From easimm at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 22:48:05 2005 From: easimm at yahoo.com (curlyhornedsnorkack) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:48:05 -0000 Subject: Students and Sex at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: ... Ginny told the trio about Romilda's question > about whether Harry had a tattoo on his chest. None of the four > seemed surprised even though to answer that question Ginny would > have had to have seen Harry without a shirt on. ... Is JKR > suggesting sex? I would be really suprised if Ginny hadn't seen Harry's chest, considering he spent considerable amounts of time during the summer at Ginny's home, playing outdoor games with the Weasley boys. -Snorky From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 22:58:00 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:58:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Snape (from a Snape hater). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008f01c5916c$4ef67f80$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 134887 Snorky replies: Is it murder if you are in a war, and you have to kill someone on your side to hide your major weapon? In World War II, Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the UK, allowed the city of Coventry to be bombed by the Germans, and thousands of people died, all to preserve the secret that the Brits had decifered the German code. I don't know much of war history, but I bet there are cases where someone directly killed someone on their side for something very important, with the victim's previous consent. Sherry: Yes, i would still consider that murder. Especially for a subordinate to kill a general. In the real world, which of course doesn't exactly apply to Hogwarts, a soldier would be court martialed for doing what Snape did and rightly so. There's just no way, to me anyway, to make taking a life into a noble, brave or honorable deed. I realize I am one of a few who feel that way, but that is just my personal opinion. However, i would heartily congratulate JKR, if I could ever meet her, over this whole Snape debate. After all, she has reasonable adults debating Snape's action, simply because she has created an intriguing character in Snape and fostered the idea that Dumbledore is always right. She is truly amazing! Sherry From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:00:08 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:00:08 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134888 > >>Janeway: > I'm curious to know why so many folks seem to believe in an all- > knowing, all-powerful Dumbledore (or nearly so), when there's > soooo much canon pointing to his mistakes. > > So it surprises me that many people seem to base their belief in > Good!Snape wholly or partly on their belief that DD could never > make a mistake like that. Betsy Hp: It's not that I believe in an Omniscient!Dumbledore. (I've posted plenty of times on how much I *hate* that view of him.) I just have a hard time wrapping my head around "complete and total fool"! Dumbledore. Because for Snape to pull the wool so totally over Dumbledore's eyes, Dumbledore would *have* to be an idiot. (Or Snape would have to be pretty darn omniscient, and I don't buy that idea either.) > >>Janeway: > > It hardly seems necessary to reiterate what they are, as most of > them form the plots of the previous books: LV!Quirrel, TR!Ginny, > Spy!Pettigrew and Innocent!Sirius, Polyjuice!Barty, and the big > reveal of OOP that DD blames himself for Sirius death because he > didn't trust Harry with the truth about the prophecy. You have to > do some pretty hard theorizing to explain away all of these > mistakes (not that I haven't tried!!). Betsy Hp: Not really. At least, not IMO. Quirrel was suspected and watched (with Snape's assistence) throughout PS/SS. Dumbledore knew Voldemort must have had *something* to do with the chamber opening, but his best information had Voldemort skulking about some dark forest. He'd have had to be Omniscient to hit upon little Ginny as the prime suspect. (Especially as Diary!Tom *knew* he needed to avoid Dumbledore's attention.) And Dumbledore *did* suspect that there was a spy amongst the Mauraders, he just didn't know who. I'd also add that neither Peter nor Sirius were working closely with Dumbledore. Not as closely as Snape has been these past six years. Fake!Moody did fake out Dumbledore, but again, Fake!Moody wasn't around Dumbledore that much, and Dumbledore didn't have any reason to suspect Moody. (Whereas there were plenty of reasons for Dumbledore to suspect a conveniently remorseful Snape showing up on his front door.) As to Dumbledore not telling Harry about the prophecy, that's not really on par with trusting the wrong people, IMO. Dumbledore made the common "old man's" mistake of trying to keep a young person young. He was over-protective of Harry's innocence. That's quite different from misjudging your top spy's loyalties. IMO, anyway. Remember, Dumbledore was one of the few people *not* taken in by Tom Riddle's charm. And you know Tom did his best to win Dumbledore over. I myself think Tom Riddle was a better actor than Snape. Snape doesn't strike me as the sort to generally have people eating out of his hand. > >>Alla: > > Just as previous poster, I am not quite sure why the idea that > Dumbledore can be wrong again seems surprising. > Betsy Hp: For me it's because there's wrong, and then there's *wrong*. So Dumbledore hires Lockhart because he's desperate for a DADA teacher and he hopes that not all of Lockhart's bragging is false. Turns out that yes, Lockhart is a complete incompetent. But he's not out to kill any of the student body. So, in this case, Dumbledore is wrong. But no real harm done. But, if it turns out that Snape has been playing Dumbledore for a fool for all those years... Well, it means that Dumbledore was *wrong*, in an "and for that reason, the Order lost the war" sort of way. This isn't a simple, "ooh, that teacher turned out to not know his subject, best hire a new one," mistake. This is a "but Jack was such a *nice* man, I thought he was a butcher and the Ripper thing was an old school nickname," type of error. For me, if Snape is truly Voldemort's man, Dumbledore is not just fallible, he's a fool. And frankly, that would be harder for me to take than the actual betrayal. Betsy Hp From mariabronte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:06:52 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:06:52 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134889 I've been thinking further about how Snape is structured as a character through the series so far. Others have mentioned possible parallels between Snape and Gollum. Another interesting parallel, however, becomes evident if you compare Snape to the character of Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice". Consider the following: 1) Shylock, like Snape, is unsettlingly ambiguous. Those who wish to play him as a comic villain point to his eagerness to get his 'pound of flesh'. Those who incline to the tragic hero interpretation point to his "Hath not a jew eyes?" speech : ". . . I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, shall we not die?" (III, i, 58-66) This problem with interpreting Shylock reminds me of arguments on list about things that Snape has said and done in canon which can be interpreted in two contradictory ways :-) 2) Shylock, like Snape, is absolutely critical to the structure of the story in which he appears. Shylock's actions drive a large part of the story of the play (most of it hinges on his claim for a pound of flesh from Antonio) yet, like Snape, he is not the hero of the story and not meant to be taken as such. Similarly, many of the events involving Snape, and the choices he has to make, are absolutely critical to Harry's story, but Snape is not the hero of the story, Harry is. 3) What this leaves me wondering is how far this parallel will go. The way "The Merchant of Venice" is written, it is impossible to finally determine which way Shylock is meant to be played; the way I interpret it is that Shylock is, in reality, both comic villain and tragic hero. This is why "Merchant" is one of Shakespeare's better written comedies. The question is, does Rowling intend for us to look at Snape in the same paradoxical way? Can he exist as a character who has both villainous and heroic traits? Of course, the parallel may break down in the last book because the story arc requires Snape to either make a final choice that will resolve his fate, or else reveal that he has already made it. Thoughts? Mari. From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Mon Jul 25 22:42:19 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:42:19 -0000 Subject: HBP after the third read Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134890 Actually I'm still on chapter 4 of the third pass at reading HBP, it's still fresh though and I can't help feeling that I'll like it just as much third time round. <> I begin to wonder if Snape had a secret desire for Lily Potter and that maybe he was asked Voldermort to let her live explaining the fact that Voldermort didn't immediately AK her. At the same time, the same might be true of Peter Pettigrew. Someone must have been at Godric's Hollow with Voldermort, after he tried to AK Harry, he would have no longer have been able to hold a wand and it would therefore have dropped to the floor. We know that he has his wand back because of the Priori Incantatum in Book 4. Logic suggests that Peter was there and took the wand, hiding it somewhere for later retrieval, but it could have been Snape. I'm very much a believer in Evil Snape, that either he is completely loyal to Voldermort or that he has his own agenda and is quite happy to see Harry defeat Voldermort. If he were working to some kind of plan that he and DD conjured up, then he might be in trouble. When he gets back to Voldermort he might immediately find himself being tasked with things like killing Miggles and Wizards which could be a problem. Despite me firmly believing that Snape is evil, I do get the feeling that he did not know what "the plan" was in chapter 2 and that he was trying to find out by manipulating Narcissa. The problem with that is, would you risk making an Unbreakable vow under those circumstances? Even if you disregard the speculation about Snape, DD messed up big time. By choosing to ignore Harry's warnings about Draco he allowed 5 or 6 DEs to enter Hogwarts and cause havoc. If he hadn't arrived back when he did most of the order and teachers could have been dead and Fenrir Greyback could have had a free lunch on his favourite snack - kids. DD missed that Rosmerta was under the Imperius curse, despite being a regular at the three broomsticks. He also nearly killed himself on a quest for a Horcrux that had long since gone (perhaps I can forgive him that one). I love DD, but he was of his time and you can't help feeling that that time had passed. Lastly, and completely out there, maybe R.A.B was Amelia Bones (who preferred here middle name to her first). Maybe her and Emmeline Vance had successfully found the Locket Horcrux and ultimately paid for it with their lives. I don't actually believe this, but if we explore every avenue, nothing in Book 7 wil be a surprise. The book was FAB, by the way. My daughter and me agree that we would rather read a Harry Potter book for the umpteenth time than read any other book and now I have 6 to cycle through. Thanks for listening Mandy From littleleah at handbag.com Mon Jul 25 23:15:09 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:15:09 -0000 Subject: JKR on the pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134891 Saraquel wrote: >I liked the Spinners End bit, good try! but geography is against >it. Spinners End is in a mill town. The description is very much >of the cities of the North of England, particularly around Leeds and >Manchester. Hagrid mentions flying over Bristol, which is in the >South West of England and the Dursleys live near London in the >South East. Hence, if Hagrid was taking Harry from the North to the >Dursleys, he would have to go round 2 sides of a triangle in order >to fly over Bristol!! However, a route from South Wales to the >Dursley's could easily fly over Bristol. I thought Spinners End was a nice thought, too, though the mind boggles a bit at the idea of Snape and babycare. I don't think it is that geographically off, however, if Spinners End is west of the Pennines (I agree it is a northern mill town and that would make the Riddles from Yorkshire and the Snapes from Lancashire!) Hagrid could fly out over Morecambe Bay and travel south either over Wales or the Irish Sea. I think, though I don't have a map, that the largest estuary he would encounter is the Severn, which would bring him back in over England at Bristol, and he would then fly towards Surrey along the route of the M4. Leah From cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com Mon Jul 25 23:17:30 2005 From: cfitzsimmons at kc.rr.com (Claire) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:17:30 -0000 Subject: Albus and Aberforth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134892 I apologize if this has already been mentioned/discussed (yes, I know it's rather trite, but the volume of posts is daunting). Could Albus and Aberforth Dumbledore be twins? Perhaps identical, but disguised enough that Harry only thought the barman looked familar. In order to maintain the illusion that Albus who was killed by the AK curse, could they somehow have changed places? Dumbledore's consistent reminders that he has superior brain power seem out of character for a, well, character who has been remarkably unassuming throughout the series. Just because Aberforth did something strange with a goat doesn't mean he's not a good wizard and could trick people. Just a thought and because I don't really want to believe Albus is gone for good. Claire From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:36:57 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:36:57 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134893 "Mari" wrote: > I've been thinking further about how Snape is structured as a > character through the series so far. > > Others have mentioned possible parallels between Snape and > Gollum. > > Another interesting parallel, however, becomes evident if you > compare Snape to the character of Shylock in "The Merchant of > Venice". > > > Of course, the parallel may break down in the last book because > the story arc requires Snape to either make a final choice that > will resolve his fate, or else reveal that he has already made it. > > Thoughts? > > Mari. Yeah, I guess since the Snape-is-a-vampire theory has been finally shot down by JKR, the Snape-is-a-Jew one is the next best thing. Let him crave for a pound of flesh rather than blood! a_svirn From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:41:41 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:41:41 -0000 Subject: "KILL ME!" Was: Can it be Impedimenta? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > But I want to discuss your last paragraph. I agree that Dumbledore > would be dead either way, but if, as we have been speculating, > Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, then he was not *murdered.* The > distinction between "kill" and "murder" is not merely semantic. It > reflects a difference of intention. Killing is sometimes necessary, as > Harry himself will find when he faces Voldemort. And murder, we are > told, splits the soul. Dumbledore's peaceful expression and closed > eyes suggest that he was killed at his own request rather than > murdered; that the man he had trusted, perhaps even loved as a son, > had not betrayed him. If he thought that Snape had split his soul, > that he was irredeemably evil, could he have worn that beatific > expression? I think not. Merrylinks replies: I can see your point. Let me try to pursue it a bit. In Chapter 25 Harry says to Dumbledore: "You're leaving the school tonight, and I'll bet you haven't even considered that Snape and Malfoy might decide to --" "To what?" asked Dumbledore, his eyebrows raised. "What is it that you suspect them of doing, precisely?" "I...they're up to something?" said Harry..."Professor Trelawney was just in the Room of Requirement...and she heard Malfoy whooping, celebrating! He's trying to mend something dangerous in there and if you ask me, he's fixed it at last and you're about to just walk out of school without --" "Enough," said Dumbledore. He said it quite calmly, and yet Harry fell silent at once; he knew that he had finally crossed some invisible line. "Do you think that I have once left the school unprotected during my absences this year? I have not. Tonight, when I leave, there will again be additional protection in place. Please do not suggest that I do not take the safety of my students seriously, Harry." "I didn't --" mumbled Harry, a little abashed, but Dumbledore cut across him. "I do not wish to discuss the matter any further." Dumbledore puts Harry in his place, but with 20/20 hindsight, we now know that Harry was right and Dumbledore was very wrong. Which leads me to the scene in the cave. As Dumbledore drinks the horcrux- protecting potion, he is frightened. He says, "Make it stop;" "It's all my fault;" "Don't hurt them;" "Please...no not that;" "I want to die;" "KILL ME!" Is it possible that this potion gives the drinker a view into the future? Does it show the version of the future that the drinker dreads the most? Does drinking it show Dumbledore that he has, in fact, left Hogwarts unprotected and that its students will be attacked by Death Eaters, including a notorious werewolf? Are his agonized pleas the result of seeing more and more clearly the cost of his mistake? Are we hearing Dumbledore's future internal thoughts on the astronomy tower as he appears to be talking calmly with Draco and the Death Eaters and finally with Snape? Perhaps the "KILL ME" is the final silent instruction Dumbledore gave to Snape when "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Merrylinks From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 25 23:44:24 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:44:24 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134895 tinglinger ------------------------------------- original post Clues Convergent at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134809 tinglinger (exerpt) ------------------------------------- Here's what might have happened at Godrics Hollow 6. Snape loves Lily, who was the only person ever shown to be decent enough to be concerned about him (with the possible exception of his mother), colebiancardi -------------------------------------- can SOMEONE please explain where, oh, where, in any of the HP books that Snape "loves" Lily? zgirnius -------------------------------------- Nowhere. We're all trying to read between the lines. Points in favor of the theory that I have come up with, or have seen posted elsewhere: < tinglinger snips SIX possible explanations ... SIX ..... why my statement MAY nake sense with NO corresponding argument or reason why it doesn't> So it's in the realm of theory and speculation, for sure, but there is some evidence on which to build this house of cards... tinglinger (to zgirnius) -------------------------------------- "house of cards"? after six plausible reasons? I am not saying that this has to be so, just that it can't be dismissed....... colebiancardi (to zgirnius ) --------------------------------------- thanks for posting that - but I am not a shipper of this theory (nor am I a shipper at all, for that matter) See - I don't like the Lily theory or any 'love' theory, for that matter, when it comes to Snape. I think he had a moment of conscience and that is why he turned back to DD - it makes Snape a bit more noble to do it on his own, not because of any unrequited love. Now if you want to say that Snape loved Lily like a sister or something like that, like how Harry loves Hermoine in a non-romantic way, I can buy that. but romantic love? nope. Unless Rowling drops a bomb in book 7, I doubt she will make this ship. She HATES Snape and obviously loves Lily - it doesn't make sense. But I have been known to be wrong. tinglinger --------------------------------------- So - I guess my main offense is that I offended a non-shipper - o.k., being a delusional former HH shipper I can live with that, {particularly in my delusional livin' la vida loca world}. So.... how does the Lily theory therefore collapse like a house of cards? Some canon to show it does, please..... To clarify slightly my intent "love" just might have been too strong a word --- "ship" as in "friendship" would have been better perhaps --- "respectful potion competitors" yet better still ... That said, I would love (sorry for that word - my apologies to those sensitive souls among you...) to have a BETTER explanation as to the events that occurred at GH. Who could have been there besides Snape that makes more sense? If no one was there, why did JKR clam up the moment the question was asked during the interview last week? And as I had posted once before without having an answer that disproved what I said - if NOONE ELSE but Harry, Lily, James, and Voldemort were there, who told the story of the Boy Who Lived to the whole wizarding world that night ?????? I'm all ears..... {bigger than Dobby's even ....} I don't mind anyone shooting down my theories by canon or whatever, just come up with better ones ........ Now that I am on a roll ...... ["Let it out Harry! Don't let it stay bottled up inside there!" - Gred and Forge to Harry in Grimauld Place after he screamed at Ron and Hermione so loudly it could be heard three floors below...] After reading a couple of thousand posts (yes, that many, since I have read virtually all the posts in HPFGU since right before OOP came out) saying how WONDERFUL Snape really is - how truly misunderstood he is - how pure of heart he is - how he would NEVER hurt a non-airborne fly! ---- despite all evidence in the books to the contrary despite the duplicity despite his aiding and abetting a more competent and lethal squad of death eaters entering Hogwarts - especially that loveable ol'Fennir Greyback who would like nothing more than to crunch and munch as many students as he possibly could..... {why, i'm just FEELIN' the luv for poor old misunderstood Sevvy for THAT ...} despite AKing Dumbledore (for whatever reason - and please don't talk about assisted suicide without a foot of parchment of proof for that theory indicating how the wizarding community is best served with DD gone) despite his willingness to have the dementors suck out the souls of Lupin and Sirius without listening to their pleas despite never showing the slightest inkling to act with fairness or patience for anyone but DD or Slytherin House Students .... I now hereby challenge anyone and everyone who is under the delusion (hey, if Harry/Hermione shippers can take it, then surely the kinder and gentler Snape defenders can) that Snape is indeed misunderstood to write a canon based summary that demonstrates just how dear ol' Severus is NOT the evil betraying snivelly turd that he has demonstrated himself to be by each and every one of his actions since the series started. This summary must NOT contain any references or statements attesting that --- he really "loved" Lily or regretted killing her, he admitted that his hatred for James and Sirius was merely an "act", his threats to have Lupin as well as Sirius be tossed to the dementors justified, his flagrant mistreatment and abuse of any non Slytherin student is anything but despicable.......... or ............... In the paraphrased words of colebiancardi --- Can SOMEONE please explain where, oh, where, in any of the HP books does it say that Snape is anything but an evil scumbag? (thanks for the word, Harry!) I want to see a proper "house of cards" in Snape's defense - it will make my wait for Book 7 most interesting and enjoyable tearing it all down ......... And if I am wrong ..... well, I'll just have to invite old Snivelly and his defenders over for tea and crumpets at Harry and Hermione's future bungalow in the newly renovated Godric's Hollow after they graduate Hogwarts, get married, and live happily ever after with 12 children and Crookshanks. Go for it! {throws gauntlet and hits himself in the kneecap} (Hot DAMN! I had fun writing this!!!! lol) tinglinger with a website called potterplots full of theories, some valid, many delusional, but few that have been totally disproven for better ones........ and who is feeling like a pissed-off Peeves more each day after listening to the Snape apologists all the time. There's got to be some better threads to cling to, some more interesting theories to explore. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From clarivocal at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 00:09:34 2005 From: clarivocal at yahoo.com (Michal Barnea) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blades and snakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726000935.43720.qmail@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134896 --- snipsnapsnurr wrote: > I don't > have the books handy, but in CoS, did Harry harm the basilisk with > spells? Has Nagini ever been harmed by spells? I can't think of any > dragon slaying legend where the dragon was killed by a guy with a > wand. > Maybe wands just don't work on serpents for some reason. Maybe > Goderic > Griffindor was a dragon slayer. > > snipsnapsnurr ah yes, but in GoF, several wizards stun the hungarian horntail together... dragons can be affected by magic (more specifically, wands), though i can't provide any canonical evidence for the same applying to snakes. there's more about knives in HBP, though... "Mrs. Weasley entered the room just in time to see Ron throw the sprout knife at Fred, who had turned it into a paper airplane with one lazy flick of his wand. 'Ron!' she said furiously. 'Don't you ever let me see you throwing knives again!' 'I won't,' said Ron, 'let you see,' he added under his breath, as he turned back to the sprout mountain." i don't think it really means anything, but who knows? maybe ron will be some sort of... magical knife-wielder :P it's good to be back! i've been avoiding posting about this book so far, because people always say what i want to say before i get around to it. i think i've finally posted something that hasn't been pointed out yet (although that might be because it's fairly unimportant). michal (who took on the nickname "dumbledoria" on her college harry potter message board... sad) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 00:13:30 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape culpable - and the Three-Part Interview In-Reply-To: <20050723113813.17663.qmail@web60423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050726001330.19739.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134897 --- Lawrence Carlin wrote: > It seems everyone has assumed that in refering to > Snape as culpable, JKR is referancing the betrayal and > the murder of DD. However, she could mean culpable to > mean Snape's treatment of Harry, Neville and the other > students for the previous six years. Or am I grasping > at straws? I suspect that she's referring to the fact that he joined the Death Eaters. When he turned his back on them and became a double-agent-spy, he began the upward trajectory to redemption. Gittish and snide redemption, granted, but redemption none the less. And Snape is not ESE! despite what JKR was snickering about in the famous three-part interview. She's not giving anything away and she's not going to give us any clues this far ahead of the next book. She's stressing the impression she's left with us at the end of HBP. She's playing with our heads, folks. Don't let it get you down. Remember how she went on about people getting too fond of Draco after OOTP came out? How she couldn't understand why people liked him and said it must be Tom Felton's fault? Could a woman who was so down on Draco have given us the more-human (still a little prick but nonetheless three-dimensional) Draco we saw in this book? Scared and crying and quick to refute the suggestion that he invited a werewolf into Hogwarts where his friends lived? I would respectfully suggest that we stop regarding JKR's interviews as canon; they're marketing and she's just not going to tell us anything. We'll have to wait a couple of years, that's all. I'll tell you one thing though: Chapter 2 confirmed my belief that Snape is a Good Guy (TM) and that Harry is in for another major shock/Learning Experience in the next book. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From JodyE50 at aol.com Mon Jul 25 23:04:14 2005 From: JodyE50 at aol.com (JodyE50 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:04:14 EDT Subject: Ugly equals evil? (was:Re: Snape's Parents) Message-ID: <66.5b9232a7.3016c9ee@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134898 Colebiancardi: > (still wishing Rowling wouldn't make things either > pretty/good &ugly/evil) Betsy Hp: > Actually, I've not found that to be the case. Beautiful does > *not* equal good in JKR's world.? Jody: I agree with Betsy. I do think that JKR uses Charles Dickens's device of giving her characters names and descriptions that match their personalities. Therefore, nobody would expect a person named Severus Snape to be a swimsuit model, or head cheerleader. However, when it comes to Good and Evil characters, she doesn't merely equate that to physical beauty. Characters on the side of GOOD, who are not visions of loveliness Minerva McGonagal- described as stern looking with square glasses Sybil Trelawny- Looking like a large insect (she may be foolish, but is NOT evil) Albus Dumbledor-broken, crooked nose Tonks-can make herself attractive, of course, but in her natural state, mousy looking Ron Weasley- tall, skinny, freckled with a long nose Hermione Grainger-has improved with age but started out with bushy hair and rodent teeth, bossy voice Harry Potter-short, skinny, glasses and untidy hair, definitely improves with age Luna Lovegood- lank blond hair, bulging eyes Molly Weasley-plump and matronly looking Sirius Black- once good looking but showing the effects of 12 years of Azkaban Remus Lupin- possibly formerly good looking, but the years have not been kind to him Slughorn- fat, greedy and shallow, but not evil Madam Pomfrey- can't recall a description, but hardly the object of erotic daydreams These are all major characters, and I can only recall a few who ARE described as good looking, Cho Chang and Fleur leap to mind, as well as Bill Weasley and Gilderoy Lockhart. Jody From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 00:36:23 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:36:23 -0000 Subject: False Identity? RAB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134899 On another forum, HPFGU group member Carolyn White suggested RAB could be Amy Benson, one of the children Tom Riddle lured into the cave and terrorized as a child. That got me thinking about the possibilities. For starters, we have the interview with JKR: JKR: Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I think that is ? well, I hoped that people would. MA: Is there more we should ask about him? JKR: There are things you will deduce on further readings, I think ? well you two definitely will, for sure ? that, yeah, I was really hoping that R.A.B. would come out. Jen again: JKR seems to be referring to a re-read of HBP and not the whole series, so that might narrow down RAB guesses to people in this book, particularly Borgin, Regulus, and possibly Amy Benson. And she cleverly neither confirms nor denies the gender of RAB. But back to Amy. So you have this person who actually visited the cave. And after the cave incident, she and Dennis Bishop 'were never quite right afterwards.' So we assume they are simply traumatized Muggles. But say instead, you have one traumatized Muggle and one witch who doesn't show any particular power yet, someone a bit like Neville. Then she's terrorized by Tom Riddle in the cave. The stress of the incident, like Neville being thrown out the window, activates her magical abilities. Now a couple of things could happen from there. 1) False Identity Theory: Amy was adopted and her name was changed. Meaning one of the characters we already know is actually Amy Benson. She never forgave or forgot Tom Riddle and his cruelty, and made it her mission in life to seek revenge. Or she simply abhorred his cruelty and wanted to free the world of his evil nature. I like this theory because we already have a successful false identity in canon. Also, to make this work, Amy would need to be several years younger than TR, and not someone he recognized at Hogawarts(or she attended a different wizarding school). **McGonagall would be my first choice here both because of her age and the fact that she knew how to dress like a Muggle in OOTP. Problem here is she didn't tell Dumbledore her identity or that she had already destroyed the locket. And she's not dead, although technically RAB doesn't have to be dead even if he/she expected to be after the posion or by Voldemort's hand.** The lure of this one would be the moment Mcgonagall or other known canon figure reveals herself to be Amy Benson. We'd get not only get more explanation about Tom Riddle's past, but may get backstory on a well-known figure in canon and why she chose to keep her identity and actions secret. 2) Another option--we've met Amy in a portrait, as a ghost or in the Pensieve but don't know it yet. 3)Amy attended another wizarding school, has pursued Voldemort completely on her own, and we have yet to officially meet her yet. I love the first option though, can picture the moment someone cracks and reveals herself. Well, truth be told I keep picturing McGonagall, admitting she never told Dumbledore everything and why. That she was working on her own agenda the whole time, even though it dovetailed nicely with what DD was doing. The problem of course is the poison. But, given all the talk of antidotes and Bezoars, it's not impossible. At least we think that was poison, right? It makes the most sense with the rest of the storyline. Jen, hoping for a big mystery with this one. **Disclaimer: I haven't read everything on this site. I did search for Amy Benson and False Identity this afternoon and came up empty- handed. Probably because this seems entirely unlikely. ;) Heh, no matter, I like it. From slmuth at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 00:08:14 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:08:14 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134900 Betsy Hp wrote: > It's not that I believe in an Omniscient!Dumbledore. (I've posted > plenty of times on how much I *hate* that view of him.) I just > have a hard time wrapping my head around "complete and total fool"! > Dumbledore. Because for Snape to pull the wool so totally over > Dumbledore's eyes, Dumbledore would *have* to be an idiot. Janeway: Your distinction between an omniscient!Dumbledore and a more measured not-a-fool!Dumbledore is well taken. But I don't agree that being wrong about Snape is so much more idiotic than being wrong about, say, LV residing in the back of Quirrel's head. I mean, they're both pretty bad -- it's just that the outcome in Snape's case turned out to be so much worse. And while we can reasonably explain away one or two of DD's previous errors in judgment, is it reasonable to explain all of them away? Betsy Hp: > Turns out that yes, Lockhart is a complete incompetent. But he's > not out to kill any of the student body. So, in this case, > Dumbledore is wrong. But no real harm done. > But, if it turns out that Snape has been playing Dumbledore for a > fool for all those years... Well, it means that Dumbledore was > *wrong*, in an "and for that reason, the Order lost the war" sort > of way. Janeway: But if Quirrel or Diary!Tom or Fake!Moody or any of them had been successful in killing the "chosen one", it would also have been wrong in a "the Order just lost the war" sort of way too. Betsy hp: > For me, if Snape is truly Voldemort's man, Dumbledore is not just > fallible, he's a fool. And frankly, that would be harder for me to > take than the actual betrayal. Janeway: I agree, it would be devastating to find out that Dumbledore is a fool. But I don't think that trusting Snape makes DD a fool, even if Snape turns out to be ESE. When you trust someone you open yourself up to be hurt by them. It's a risk. You have to be very strong and very brave to be able to trust. DD uses his strength to give people second chances, and most of them have paid off (think of the difference it made to Hagrid, Lupin, Sirius... and of course to Tom and Snape as well). I think by making the difficult choice to trust Snape (and thereby save him from LV or Azkaban), DD models what he means by "love" -- laying yourself on the line for someone else's good. And IMO that is heroic, even if it turns out that the person you trusted betrays you. At this point, Harry is fully aware of the consequences of choosing to "love". Just my view, Janeway From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jul 26 00:53:19 2005 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:53:19 -0000 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux (spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peter Felix Schuster" wrote: > > Any speculation on > > whether the locket was swapped recently, or years ago? My R A B theory is that the B stands for Burke. If you remember the whole affair of the locket, Burke was intimately involved from the first. - He bought the locket (for a song) from LV's mother - I bet LV was pretty annoyed about that actually. - He employed LV and LV betrayed him by murdering a good customer and stealing 2 valuable items that, by the tenor of the conversation, Burke might well have thought would pass through his shop again in the future. - He disappears at some point. We only ever see Caractacus Borgin in the shop these days. So he intimately knows LV and has very personal reasons to be on terms of emnity with him. He knows all about the locket (and probably the Hufflepuff goblet), but not necessarily the other horcruxes. Judging by the evil reputation of Borgin and Burke it is not too unreasonable to assume that he had an affinity with dark magic. I think he is a good contender. Jocelyn From onewisdomj25 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:44:28 2005 From: onewisdomj25 at hotmail.com (crystalonyx3) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:44:28 -0000 Subject: Another "Not Really DD" Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134902 I never thought that was really DD thoughout the whole book. Remember when he asked HP if he'd managed to get the true memory from Sluggy'? When HP told him he hadn't gotten it DD reacted in what I thought was out of character. He mentioned HP's cunning. Cunning?! Doesn't that sound more like a LV (or Snape) thing to say. The real DD knows that Harry is not cunning. That boy never divised a plan in his whole life. HP always just jumped in head first and hoped for the best. There were a few other times in this book that DD didn't sound like his usual self. Like when he first found Sluggy. He poked him really hard. Would DD have done that? And what did he really do when he went to the bathroom? Pee? I think not! Oh,Oh, and when DD had to drink that liquid. He said "It's all my fault." What was all his fault? (What if DD and Snape traded places?) Why were we told that Snape felt guilty about HP's parents? When DD Drank that liquid he cried and said- "It's all my fault," and for that matter, it could have been Wormtail. He and Snape were living together at the begining. What if Wormtail reformed? The rational part of me says that it is what it is..... Snape is a dirty muther-shut your mouth. DD is dead and HP is going to loose everyone close to him before this is over (is this still supposed to be for children?). But the part of me that gets excited at the idea of magic being real believes that DD is locked up somewhere with chunks of his beard missing and when he fights his way out of that imperious curse I wouldn't want to be the deatheater on duty that night. crystalonyx3 From chnc1024 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 01:13:37 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.net (Chancie ) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:13:37 -0700 Subject: Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? Message-ID: <410-22005722611337963@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134903 Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman from the Quibbler article in OOP? DD said that he could hide Draco, what if he hid Regulus when he tried to back out of being a DE? Not that I really think this is plausible, and I doubt anyone besides Luna Lovegood would think it was remotely possible, but I thought I'd post it anyway. Chancie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 01:25:36 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:25:36 -0000 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134904 >>>Greenmini Cat said: And finally, I suspect that Jo is sensitive to little ones feelings and would not directly shoot down a child's theory. I don't put much stock in that response, though I agree she has hinted that there might be more to Petunia than meets the eye. Certainly I agree that there must have been some inducement to take in Harry, but I don't think it has anything to do with Dudley having magical powers. I would like to know what that inducement was though. >>>>> I agree that Jo is very sensitive to the feelings of her younger readers. And no, she hasn't shot down their theories - but she *has* shot down theories before, and recently in regards to various pairings with Draco Malfoy. (I'm horrible at finding info in interviews, but I know she talked about it in the recent set with MuggleNet and TLC.) And let's face it, the 10 year olds are not the ones coming up with the bizarre theories (like, oh, let's say, "Snape is a Vampire"). Yes, I think Petunia was convinced to take Harry, but I think it has more to do with her feelings toward her sister than anything else. Petunia loved her sister at one time - we know this, because otherwise she would not have been so affected in OotP upon learning that Voldemort had returned. --azriona From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 01:27:06 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:27:06 -0000 Subject: life's debt and how does it work? And Snapes Life debt. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134905 > Tonks: > > > I also wonder if it involves an enemy. If you save the life of > > someone that is not your friend, but someone that you hate, maybe > > that has a special magic of its own. The love of enemy sort of > > thing. > > > > I always assumed it was something along these lines. Or perhaps the > fact that Wormtail probably deserved to die, but Harry saved him > anyway. While reading everyone's posts about the life debt, I am > constantly reminded of The Fellowship of the Ring, where Gandalf > explains to Frodo, many who deserve death live, and vice versa. It > takes a lot more courage and pure-heartedness to save someone you > hate, someone who has caused you great pain and suffering, than to > save your innocent frient. Thus the guilty person is more indebted > to you. > --Mrs. HS > Valky: Yes I'm on this boat with you HS and Tonks. I posited (many months or possibly even a couple of years ago) That the Life debt is earned at some sacrifice to yourself, namely a deeper compassion for others who have done wrong by you, or even more so, are in the process of doing wrong by you, hurting you in some way. It's a selfless compassion that earns a life debt, more selfless than just a saving people thing but similar. The canon words that support the Life Debt magic working this way are PS/SS - James saved Snape at great risk to his own life. POA - Harry spares the traitor that betrayed him to Voldemort, leading him to the pain and suffering of his childhood. Interview - Ginny doesn't owe Harry a Life Debt. The limits of this logic very narrow. If one is true then the other is false *unless* this: Snape caused James to suffer, like Wormtail has caused Harry to suffer. Young!Snape was as culpable as Wormtail and both are far less culpable than Ginny. The one major difference is Ginny's innocence. After all *she* failed to report the diary to her teachers or to Dumbledore thereby inadvertantly causing pain and suffering to many (including Harry). If she had done this willfully and knowingly instead, then there would be no difference at all between Harry saving her, and Harry/James saving Wormtail/Snape as far as I can tell. It would mean all three cases are too similar to separate. Snapes curses revealed in HBP, make it all the more possible that at some stage Young!Snape did a terrible wrong by Harry's father, perhaps even an attempt on or sickening disregard for his life, not unlike the betrayal of the Potters by Wormtail. It is not hard to believe that at some stage Young!Severus wanted James dead or would have chosen to help him along somehow willfully and knowingly. There is no lack of evidence of their animosity at that age. The interesting thing is, tht Dumbledore knew of the Life Debt, so if Life Debt's work this way then Dumbledore also knew of Snapes wrongs against James that James was able to put aside and replace with compassion for him when he was alone with the werewolf. I like the theory I read earlier, saying that Snape panicked when he realised the one he owed a life debt to would be killed because it would curse him to be involved with James death again. However, I am not sure that meshes with the concept of Snape *hating* that he was in debt to James. That very thing in fact tends to indicate that Snape understood the nobility and compassion it took for James to earn the life debt. It indicates that Snape hated James being *noble*. Why would Severus hate the reminder that James acted *nobly* for him if he was truly evil. Wouldn't Voldemort just laugh it off, say "Oh yeah powerful magic, but he's a fool, because it's just love, and now I am not dead I don't care." But Sevvie did care, he cared immensely, and to wit he spends his many years in complete denial of James nobility and honour. These thoughts above are the ones that have plagued me for a while about SS. Without canon proof that Snape was capable of unimaginable honour it was difficult to put him beside these words. All the ambiguity in his character ran deep on either side. And so far the only thing it truly proved was that at one stage Sevvie was capable of great evil. HBP is a different kettle of fish, and although for many of us it may have seemd the clincher that Snape was as evil as we ever believed, for me it was quite the opposite. Snapes emotional, human side actually slipped through the cracks in HBP and we got a glimpse of it. Despite the outward appearance of his actions, a subtle reveal of Sevvies heart slid down his sleeve in HBP, and it seemed to me that Dumbledore was right. Snape was truly sorry for what he'd done to James Lily and Harry. And as much as he hates it, he really does like who Harry is. He just doesn't want to. It will take a little while to pull the canon, but, I am not a Snape apologist. SS was a bad person and he knows it, he can't apologise for what he's done. It's a hard road back for him now and his choices reveal just how determined he really is to do it, and how much he is wiling to give for his second chance at being the righteous man he always wanted to be. IMHO he is already willfully on the path to giving his own life for Harry. It's just a matter of time. If anyone cares to question this please do, it will help remind me of where I need to look in HBP to back this statement. Valky > ----- > Gmail is fantastic for sorting through the 80-bajillion emails per day > I get from HPforGrownUps. Email me privately if you'd like an invite. From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 01:28:28 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:28:28 -0000 Subject: Jo's next project (was Re: horrid thought - or maybe not?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tishytrouble" wrote: > colebiancardi wrote: > > Since JKR has always stated that there would be 7 books for the 7 > > years that Harry is at Hogwarts, I am now wondering.... > > > > Since Harry stated in book 6 he would not be going back to > hogwarts, > > why stop at book 7? He isn't a 7th year student anymore. Why not > > continue the books until .....god knows when..... > > > I think Harry will go back to Hogwarts, because something will > happen in the Summer Holidays to make it so. JKR has always stated > only seven books and has reiterated that in a recent interview > (can't remember where I read it), she planned 7 books from the > start, and much as we might like there to be more.. I don't think so > somehow! > > Tish Besides, poor woman's ready for a break from the HP world, I think. I remember reading somewhere that she has another idea for a completely different book, but it was several years ago, so I haven't the slightest if I'm just imagining it or not. Anyone else remember? But gosh, I hope she does that HP encyclopedia. That would be AWESOME. --azriona From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 23:17:25 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:17:25 -0000 Subject: Horcrux possibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134907 Lorrie: > Isn't there a scene in one of them when Harry is looking in a glass case at Hogwarts and sees a medal award to Tom Riddle for Special Services to the School? > If Riddles diary was one, and the locket possibly another, I assume the award could be as well. Something tangible of his still in Hogwarts. Hey, I like this theory! I think Tom Riddle was awarded the trophy for 'discovering' Hagrid had opened the Chamber of Secrets. Of course we know this was not true and it was TR who was the heir of Slytherin. So it would also tie in with the fact that LV (or Tom Riddle as he was then) would have to kill in order to make a horcrux, and in CoS it said that there were some deaths in the school when the Chamber was opened the first time, ie. by Tom Riddle. So that could fit, though strictly speaking it was the Basilisk that killed. Rita From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 01:32:38 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:32:38 -0000 Subject: Albus and Aberforth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Claire" wrote: > I apologize if this has already been mentioned/discussed (yes, I know > it's rather trite, but the volume of posts is daunting). > > Could Albus and Aberforth Dumbledore be twins? Perhaps identical, but > disguised enough that Harry only thought the barman looked familar. > In order to maintain the illusion that Albus who was killed by the AK > curse, could they somehow have changed places? Dumbledore's > consistent reminders that he has superior brain power seem out of > character for a, well, character who has been remarkably unassuming > throughout the series. Just because Aberforth did something strange > with a goat doesn't mean he's not a good wizard and could trick people. > > Just a thought and because I don't really want to believe Albus is > gone for good. > > Claire I can't remember and sadly do not have my book with me - was there ever opportunity for Albus and Aberforth to have switched places after the return from the cave? Because I really can't believe that Albus would have let Harry go without him. --azriona (who believes that Albus is deader than tap water, but is willing to play along) From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 23:32:45 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:32:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar / Snape switched the locket ,/and other theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134909 I have two questions which I'd like other people's comments on: 1. In HBP how come Harry's scar is no longer hurting him? Throughout OoP his scar started burning or being painful when Voldermort was near or having strong emotions, hence the reason Harry had to learn Occlumency. But he never managed to master Occlumency, so surely this would mean LV could still link to Harry through his scar or his mind? There is no explanation in HBP why this has suddenly changed. Anyone have any thoughts on this? 2. When Harry retrieves the locket from Dumbledore's pocket after he has been killed by Snape, Harry notices the locket is smaller than the one he remembered seeing in the Pensieve right? Well, is it possible that DD and Harry DID retrieve the real horcrux locket but that it was switched by Snape and Malfoy from DD's body at the foot of the tower just before Harry caught up with them? If so then this would mean Snape IS a triple agent and has taken the real horcrux to destroy it. Could this be possible? I'm also enjoying the theory I read on some posts that DD's 'Oho!' in the cave means it is really Slughorn. Afterall, we never got an explanation in HBP as to why Slughorn had made the vat of Polyjuice potion in the first place. I guess I'm just hoping that DD's in not really dead. It doesn't bode well however that DD's portrait appeared in the headmaster's office, but again this could be another part of DD's plan to fake his death. We can only hope!!! :-) Rita From bccissell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:34:33 2005 From: bccissell at hotmail.com (bciss1) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:34:33 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134910 ersatz harry says: > Still, I cannot agree that Hermione "falls apart" without the instructions, as you have said. I have to agree with ersatz Harry on this one; I don't think that Hermione "falls apart" and I don't think that she is incapable of original thought and only following instructions either. The way that I read it was that Hermione originally rejects the book because she sees it as cheating and later because she has a bad feeling about the HBP because of the dark spells written in the margins. This is just like when Sirius sent Harry the Firebolt in POA and Hermione didn't want Harry to fly it because she thought it was sent by someone with ill intentions. Hermione is just more cautious than Harry and Ron and likes to be absolutely sure of her sources. I think her refusing to use the book was absolutely in character for her--after all those suggestions could just have easily led to poisons or explosions rather than perfect potions grades. bciss From splewis at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 00:54:55 2005 From: splewis at gmail.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:54:55 -0000 Subject: HBP & COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134911 > oiboyz: Good stories are easier to start than finish, especially > if they're long, but in Book 6 she seems to be pulling things > together nicely and making full use of the characters and plots of > previous books. She's a very *efficient* writer who doesn't waste > details. > Oiboyz, You've put your finger on it. JKR is consistent in using almost everything she puts out there. Just think how much use she's gotten from Borgin & Burke since she introduced the shop in COS. Both Draco's hand of glory and the cursed opal necklace were first seen there and used to great effect in HPB. One of her special talents is in introducing what seem to be throwaway details (if only because she loads each book with so much detail) that the careful reader knows better than to throw those details away. My admiration for her grows with each reading, no matter which book I pick up. Sharon From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 01:03:49 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:03:49 -0000 Subject: Contra Severum - quick clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134912 Steve: I am saying that the fact that > Snape took charge, and removed Draco from the scene is the only thing > that saved Draco. Once they are away from the scene, Draco's death is > no longer a matter of DE discretion, but becomes a matter for Lord > > Voldemort to deal with. With Snape, Mr. Malfoy, and Mrs. Malfoy > > begging for leniency, I think the Dark Lord may decide that after > > punishment, he may be able to use Draco in the future. Draco is, > > afteral, very young and it would be understandable that the task of > > killing Dumbledore might have been more than he was able to do. > > Certainly, greater men than Draco have wanted to kill Dumbledore and > > failed. Carol: the authority to > influence Voldemort in the matter is Snape. > > I think Snape will point out that Draco did partly accomplish his > mission. He did repair the vanishing cabinet and link Borgin and > Burkes to Hogwarts and he did let the Death Eaters in. If Draco hadn't > gone that far toward accomplishing his mission, Dumbledore would not > be dead. i think that Snape, who is still bound to protect Draco > either by the oath or by his own sense of duty (as shown by his > escorting him out safely and shouting, "Run, Draco!"), will speak for > him and point this out to Voldemort. So many excellent points on all sides of the issue, and so many theories to be spun! There's always another two-penny bit to be added, and I'll throw mine in here. I'm not necessarily expecting it to be borne out by book 7 - in which, seeing how clever and sly Rowling is, the whole issue will come down to whether Snape's personal cauldron has the professional approval of Helga Hufflepuff, who has been launched forward through time and form and is now, in fact, Bono. But until then, here goes. Excellent points, and ones I feel fairly confident will be important in book 7. (Even if it's Morgana le Fey who turns out to be Bono. Or Phillip Glass; take your pick.;) My own feeling here - which is quite likely to be wrong - is that seeking Voldemort's leniency is not likely to be successful. Not that I think Lord Thingie will murder Draco right off, mind - I agree that he will consider the boy highly useful. I'm also disinclined to believe - much as I might like to! - that Snape's "logic, persuasion, and Occlumency" (Carol - and may I add that's as concise and elegant a summation of Snape's considerable intellect as I've seen anywhere; we might all find it necessary to quote it rather often) will be of much use. Voldemort probably has a rather convoluted plot for Draco in mind already - when doesn't he? - and he might toy with Snape. But he can get a full version of events from the other Death Eaters, and if motive becomes the issue, I suspect that Voldemort is a better Legilimens than Snape (or anyone else) is an Occlumens. However, what we've seen of Voldemort thus far does not suggest that he'll have pity on Draco's use or for his attempts - pity is not in his nature. What seems perhaps more likely is that he might amuse himself by Cruciating Draco a bit, then remind the boy how lucky he is that he (Voldemort) is feeling lenient at the moment, and then blackmail him by threatening his mother. While he's at it, he might remind Snape that he's done him a personal favour by sparing the boy's life (even if he never intended to kill him), and Snape now owes him one. And Snape being Snape, I'll hazard a guess that there's an ulterior motive on that end. The parents Malfoy might plead on their son's behalf as well, but I'm less optimistic about their chances of success. Voldemort is presented in HBP as being out to punish Lucius - given that Narcissa and Dumbledore agree on this, and for the same reasons, it's difficult to dispute - and his background and his interactions with and remarks about Lily suggest that maternal love is not, for him, a familiar concept. (Although acting to increase his leverage with Narcissa would be in his style.) Carol: > Snape does not join in the attack on Hagrid, nor does he fight the > Order members in the hallway. I think he is protecting the school to > the last--and protecting Draco for as long as the task requires. > > Someone mentioned leaving Draco at the school. But even if it were > possible for Snape to get him away from the Death Eaters and hand him > over to McGonagall (who is busy duelling), Draco would not be allowed > to remain at the school. He has committed several crimes: two counts > of attempted murder... Better to take his chances with the Death Eaters > and Voldemort, at least if Snape is with him to keep him silent and > inconspicuous. A lot of things here do come down to interpretations too subjective to do anything but wait. Nonetheless, I think a bit else is going on here as well. Snape knows what happened when four Aurors simultaneously attacked Hagrid last year - his restraint here is at least as likely to reflect pragmatism than compassion. (In essence: "Why bother attacking Hagrid? It's much more effort than the blundering oaf is worth.") And there's a greater factor as well. Both the Order and the Death Eaters believe Snape to be their ally. The sooner he leaves (and the sight of anyone fleeing would be no surprise in such circumstances), the less likely it is that anyone will realise anything's amiss and go after him. As for the issue of being called a coward... my impression is that Snape either considers himself a coward now, or considered himself a coward in the past, simply because the most painful insults are nearly always the ones their targets feel have the most truth in them. No matter what side he's on, Snape's had an extremely stressful night - a verbal insult from an unarmed teenager is, at most, an excuse to vent largely unrelated frustration. And killing an unarmed man, surrounded by opposing groups who both trust your loyalty... Snape may have braved any number of dangers in his time, or may not have, but Dumbledore's death doesn't really seem to qualify within the context of the narrative universe in general and Snape's place within it in particular. And then we come back to Draco. I've lent my mother my book, but if I recall correctly - which is not a certaintly at all - all the heads of house are being kept up to date on the murder-attempt situation, and it's strongly implied that they all know it's Draco. (I love Dumbledore in HBP, but what could he have been thinking here?) Snape presumably knows the castle better than any of the Death Eaters, after 15 years of teaching there, and he knows the password to what he had always known as Dumbledore's study. (I'm not yet accustomed to thinking of it as McGonagall's.) It's difficult to imagine that Draco wouldn't be safer there, or stashed in one of Hogwarts' many mystery rooms, or in Snape's heavily guarded private quarters, than he would be either in the Death Eaters' presence or on the run from them. While I doubt McGonagall would be anything like as lenient as Dumbledore, the text gives no indication that she would be more likely to cut him loose to join the Death Eaters than to try and rehabilitate him (under circumstances she would control, no less). And I'd be far more afraid of an ecstatic Voldemort or Bellatrix than of McGonagall at her angriest. That seems to be enough of Snape for the moment, for me; I think the original potions master probably needs some rest after all the attention he's been getting! (Sorry, Snape, you're out of luck there.) I have no doubt that we'll all be proven wrong in spectacular fashion when book 7 comes along, but until then, we can only keep guessing. -hekatesheadband (whose heliopaths are probably getting thirsty) From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 01:51:17 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:51:17 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134913 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Here's what might have happened at Godrics Hollow > My thanks to Bunnycollins for providing a key piece of > the puzzle! > > 7. Pettigrew provides LV with unimpeachable proof that > the Potter are hiding in Godric's Hollow > > 8. Snape panics, realizing that Lily will undoubtedly > be killed when LV gets to Godric's Hollow - Lily and > James are members of the Order after all..... But, if Snape was there, it means he had to know who the secret keeper was. As much as he hated Sirius, I would expect he would have come clean to Dumbledore about who betrayed the order. The only explanatio I can think of for that is that he thought Wormtail was dead, and figured he could let Sirius rot in Azkaban. If Wormtail were caught, all might come clear, and Snape would be exposed for not telling all. WHile it could work, it doesn't really fit for me. I was thinking maybe Snape loves Lily because she is related to him. Dumbledore tells Draco there are ways to hide wizards, make it look like they have died. Could one of Lily's parents, or grandparents been in hiding, pretending to be a muggle - thus Lily fully believing that she had to Wizard ancestors? Spell Evans backwards, you get Snave - not to far off from Snape! I have always suspected there was more to Lily's family than we've been told. Did Lily's attendance at Hogwarts make hiding that much harder? Her parents are dead, so maybe they were killed by LV (or someone else) because they were discovered. Petunia would certainly hate everything associated with the wizarding world if Lily's talent brought about the death of her own parents. I do wonder if Petunia has a bit of magic within her, and if she will be the one to come to her ability later in life. I would think she is in as much danger as Harry - Harry is protected at Privet drive as long as he can call it his home. If something happened to Petunia, I doubt Harry could call Privet Drive his home anymore. Melinda From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 01:50:28 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:50:28 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shihtouji" wrote: > I don't know if anyone else in Canada (or elsewhere!) read Andre > Alexis' review of HBP in Saturday's Globe and Mail Book section, but > some of what he says has been bothering me, and I'd like to hear the > list's reaction. > > > > Some of this may have already been discussed--I haven't had time to > read all the posts--but Alexis spends a good part of his review > discussing DD's death, and how little it moved him, and how he > suspects that DD isn't dead at all--and hopes that he's right. > > Now, it's why he hopes he's right that bothers me. It's not out of > any great love for DD--in fact, he seems to think that all of JKR's > adult characters are rather one dimensional. He says, for example, > that "DD has never been much beyond a cardboard cut-out with the > word 'wise' written on it." He goes on to note that DD's death > was "as suspicious as Gandalf's was in TFOTR"--and then suggests that > DD's death is "pivotal" to evaluating JKR's work. Because, for > Alexis, "[i]f DD is dead, then the character has been (all along) > nothing more than a prop, not at all wise or clever, and his death a > rather cheap effort to elicit emotion. On the other hand, if DD is > still alive, then he has finally acted in a way that confirms his > vaunted skill as a magician and his powers of imagination." > > However, JKR has come down quite firmly about this vis a vis Sirius's > death (and James and Lilly's for that matter). She says that once > you're dead, you're dead--no crossed fingers, &c. For DD to "pull a > Gandalf" would seem to me to be a cheap parlour trick, and would > seriously lessen the entire Potter series in my eyes. I'm willing to > accept, hard as it is, that DD is gone for good, and that Harry now > had to rely on his own instincts, rather than letting DD confirm his > actions (as he does a lot in HBP). > > > > But does anyone else out there share Alexis' point of view? > > Cheers > Noel. Lorel responds: I agree with you. I haven't read the entire review (and feel no burning need to do so), but from what you've explained here, it seems as though the author does not understand the themes of the series at all, and certainly can't be familiar with JKR's own comments on the subject of death in the books. Within the context that she has created, it seems as though DD's remaining alive would cheapen the story much more than his death, not least by toying with the emotions of readers (myself included) who have mourned DD's passing. From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 01:21:10 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:21:10 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134915 a_svirn wrote: > Yeah, I guess since the Snape-is-a-vampire theory has been finally > shot down by JKR, the Snape-is-a-Jew one is the next best thing. Let > him crave for a pound of flesh rather than blood! Ok, perhaps I didn't put my thoughts together very clearly :-( I certainly didn't mean to imply there's any support in canon for the idea that Snape is a Jew. To make this summary as short as possible, my main argument is that Snape and Shylock function in a *very similar way* in narrative terms in their respective stories. They serve a similar function for the writer, and inspire similar kinds of arguments and debates. The Jewishness or otherwise of either character was never an issue in my argument. Shylock happens to be a Jew, but Snape is clearly not. Readers respond to Shylock in the same way as readers respond to Snape; both characters are unsettling and ambiguous. Shylock functions as a plot catalyst and complicating factor for Shakespeare, and Snape similarly functions as a plot catalyst and complicating factor in the story for Rowling. This is the main reason why I don't think Rowling is finished with Snape yet. Here's the link to my original message and ideas about this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134889 Mari. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:01:57 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:01:57 -0000 Subject: Snape culpable - and the Three-Part Interview?JKR 's consistent answers abou In-Reply-To: <20050726001330.19739.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134916 Magda: > I would respectfully suggest that we stop regarding JKR's interviews > as canon; they're marketing and she's just not going to tell us > anything. We'll have to wait a couple of years, that's all. > Alla: So far everything she said about Snape, ( in terms of his character of course, not in terms of giving out clues about the plot) of course, turned out to be true, no? She was talking about him as deeply horrible person and so far he looks like it ( to me of course). I think that interviews are pretty canonical, of course unless as she said she either misspokes or changes her mind about some plot details. Sure interviews are marketing, but she said that she never lied in her interviews or even consciously misleaded us. I am inclined to believe her personally. You mentioned her being surprised about people liking Draco in her previous interviews. Well, yes, she said the same thing in this one, right? To my knowledge she never said that Draco is not going to be redeemed ( I can be wrong of course). I mean, I was shocked ( in a good way) by Draco's development, but she never said that Draco would be like this forever. She did say that the worst is coming for him and I think that many bad things happened to him in this book, no? In fact, maybe even worse in store for him in book seven. The dreaded SHIPing examples. She said flat out that she thinks that she gave the big signs of which SHIPS will sail, but won't tell for sure till recently. I guess what I am getting at is that I cannot remember her answering any major questions inconsistently. I am not talking about small plot details. I think interviews could be considered canonical( unless they conradict the books in major way of course). JMO, Alla. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:06:43 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:06:43 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134917 After doing a bit of rereading, I think chapter 2 is a better indicator of how to gauge where Snape's loyalties lie. The Unbreakable Curse--okay, I think the whole point of it being called the Unbreakable Vow is that once you make it, its done--if event A then event B happens. Unless I've skipped it, I don't find where the failure to keep the vow is an option. Draco couldn't do it so therefore Snape MUST do it, whether he abhored or loved the idea. I think I've read elsewhere on the list that Snape either had to keep the vow or die--I'd like someone to point me to where that's found because I can't find it in HBP. Why would Bella's jaw drop if it wasn't so final? Three bonds of flame bonding them together. Draco says on page 323 that Snape will have to break it, but he says it in a very flip sort of way, as if the vow won't be needed because he won't fail. If you look at it in this context, then Snape may very well believed he could prevent Draco from setting the events into motion by keeping an eye on him. Another thing I have been wondering about: pg 604 Am. Ed. "You dare use my own spells against me Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" How did James know Snape's spells to use them on him? From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:16:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:16:42 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134918 tinglinger wrote: After reading a couple of thousand posts (yes, that many, since I have read virtually all the posts in HPFGU since right before OOP came out) saying how WONDERFUL Snape really is - how truly misunderstood he is - how pure of heart he is - how he would NEVER hurt a non-airborne fly! ---- despite all evidence in the books to the contrary despite the duplicity despite his aiding and abetting a more competent and lethal squad of death eaters entering Hogwarts - especially that loveable ol'Fennir Greyback who would like nothing more than to crunch and munch as many students as he possibly could..... {why, i'm just FEELIN' the luv for poor old misunderstood Sevvy for THAT ...} despite AKing Dumbledore (for whatever reason - and please don't talk about assisted suicide without a foot of parchment of proof for that theory indicating how the wizarding community is best served with DD gone) despite his willingness to have the dementors suck out the souls of Lupin and Sirius without listening to their pleas despite never showing the slightest inkling to act with fairness or patience for anyone but DD or Slytherin House Students .... vmonte: Thank you for making my day. I agree completely! Here is a man that belonged to the most foul gang in creation. A man that probably killed and/or enjoyed torturing people. A man that "still" enjoys humiliating and putting down people, especially people that are weaker than he is--IMO a true sign of a bully and coward. Why is it ok that Snape never paid for his crimes, and that Sirius, an innocent man, go to jail for no reason? I keep thinking about Snape's Worst Memory when Snaped yelled out to James: 'Just wait, just you wait Potter, you'll be sorry!' (Not exact quote I cannot find my book.) I suppose people will say he really didn't mean this either... Vivian From natti_shafer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:19:23 2005 From: natti_shafer at yahoo.com (Nathaniel) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:19:23 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134919 Cindy wrote: I think I've read elsewhere on the list that Snape either had to keep the vow or die--I'd like someone to point me to where that's found because I can't find it in HBP. Nathaniel here: It says it at the beginning of chapter 16 "A Very Frosty Christmas" UK ed. p 305: "'An Unbreakable Vow?' said Ron, looking stunned. 'Nah, he can't have . . . are you sure?' 'Yes, I'm sure,' said Harry. 'Why, what does it mean?' 'Well, you can't break an Unbreakable Vow . . .' 'I'd worked that much out for myself, funnily enough. What happens if you break it, then?' 'You die,' said Ron simply. 'Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five. I nearly did, too. I was holding hands with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental.'" This passage does make me wonder how Fred and George were going to make Ron take take this vow. They wouldn't have been in school yet so where would they have gotten the wand or the know how? I suppose it could be anywhere . . . Nathaniel. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:46:42 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:46:42 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nathaniel" wrote: > Cindy wrote: > I think I've read elsewhere on the list that Snape either had to keep > the vow or die--I'd like someone to point me to where that's found > because I can't find it in HBP. > > > > Nathaniel here: > > It says it at the beginning of chapter 16 "A Very Frosty Christmas" > > UK ed. p 305: > > "'An Unbreakable Vow?' said Ron, looking stunned. 'Nah, he can't > have . . . are you sure?' > > 'Yes, I'm sure,' said Harry. 'Why, what does it mean?' > > 'Well, you can't break an Unbreakable Vow . . .' > > 'I'd worked that much out for myself, funnily enough. What happens > if you break it, then?' > > 'You die,' said Ron simply. 'Fred and George tried to get me to make > one when I was about five. I nearly did, too. I was holding hands > with Fred and everything when Dad found us. He went mental.'" > > This passage does make me wonder how Fred and George were going to > make Ron take take this vow. They wouldn't have been in school yet > so where would they have gotten the wand or the know how? I suppose > it could be anywhere . . . > > Nathaniel. Thanks! (I think). Part of me wants to believe Mr. Weasley gave the boys an over the top "boogie man" warning to keep the kids from messing around with Unbreakable Vows. However, I don't think JKR would be that misleading. Sigh. I think it will be lame if Snape really is working for Voldemort and then gets "redemption" before he bites it in book 7. Otherwise what's the point of Dumbledore trusting him unless he eventually repents? Kind of an odd turn if that's all there is to it or Oho! Dumbledore is so smart but not smart enough to see through Snape--or don't try and see the good in all people, kids! I'd rather read about a socially backward nasty but brilliant wizard who has his own demented reasons for being against Voldemort that are mysteriously revealed before he bites it in book 7. Oh well. Has anyone come up with any ideas why everybody seems to be hitting the bottle in this book? From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Tue Jul 26 02:49:44 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:49:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134921 >Del replies: >Yes, but at least *she* is learning all the bases, so that she *will* >be able to experiment later if she chooses to. Ron won't, for sure, >and I doubt Harry will ever be able to invent anything new except in DADA. > >I find it a bit absurd to criticise Hermione for following the >instructions in a book, when *nobody* around her is doing any better. Laura: I think you misunderstood my point of view. I was analyzing Hermione, not criticizing her. I actually think the way she learns is wonderful and I identify with it a lot personally. The only point on which you and I seem to differ is the part of my original post that you left out. Laura's Original Post: It is curious to me that Hermione is so condemning of the notes in the margins of the HBP's potions book. It is true that they may be dangerous, and she has always been wary of the implications of anything unusual. But I would have thought that, once she sees how effective they are, she would have wondered why they weren't incorporated into the regular textbook. It is clear that they work, that Slughorn recognizes that they work, that he can sometimes tell what was added to make them work, and that he seems to have no fear of the results. Yes, I know she is jealous of Harry's success, but why is she so negative about the instructions themselves? Why wouldn't she copy the changes that really work into her own book? Laura's Clarification: I am just surprised that Hermione's reaction to the notes in the book isn't a little more analytical. Why doesn't she ever take a look at some of the changes and say, "I see how that works - it makes the potion do this a bit more or that a bit better. That might be useful." Sure, she is cautious, but I would have thought that instead of outright rejection, she would have thoughtfully judged the changes. No one else except Hermione has demonstrated the ability to do so. And I agree completely that Harry and Ron are a bit out of their depth at this point. I don't think they are hopeless - they did, after all, get E's in the subject. But they aren't anywhere near Hermione's level of understanding (nor, does it seem, are any of the other students). Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 02:52:58 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:52:58 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134922 > tinglinger (to zgirnius) > -------------------------------------- > "house of cards"? after six plausible reasons? I am not saying that > this has to be so, just that it can't be dismissed....... > > zgirnius: Hi there! I'd like to clarify, I did not mean to belittle the merist of these sorts of theories. (I believe them myself, which is why 6 reasons suggest themselves to me fairly easily :-) )The sense in which the "Snape loved/liked Lily" theory is a house of cards is that it would take just one breath to knock it down. The breath in which JKR, in an interview, in answer to the question: "did Snape love Lily?" answers, "Is THAT what people think? No, of course not!" All my plausible reasons *suggest* this theory, but they could be *red herrings*. I just happen to agree with you that the theory is likely, at least in the sense that no other information we have at this point explains DD and Snape's motives 16 years ago to my satisfaction. But we could learn some new backstory in Book 7, right? Also, I did not try to come up with reasons why Snape did not love Lily. I can think of two off the top of my head. First, I used the Pensieve scene as evidence *for* the theory, but the scene could be (has been!) argued as evidence of the opposite (he calls Lilly a Mudblood, etc...) Also, my weak reason 7) could be a non-Lily reason. (Snape has actually been carrying the torch for Cissy all these years...) > tinglinger: > Who could have been there besides Snape that makes > more sense? If no one was there, why did JKR clam > up the moment the question was asked during the interview > last week? > And as I had posted once before without having an answer > that disproved what I said - > > if NOONE ELSE but Harry, Lily, James, and Voldemort were > there, who told the story of the Boy Who Lived to the whole > wizarding world that night ?????? zgirnius: Oh, I agree with you here. LV's body and wand did not walk away on their own. tinglinger: Snipped comments on Good!Snape theories. zgirnius: I am a fence-sitter on the Snape issue. And as I have attempted to clarify above, I believe the Snape loved Lily theory. (I just wouild not consider it *proved*. Call me pedantic-it must be my mathematics training talking...) So any attempt I would make to defend Snape from charges that he is and has always been either a) totally evil, or b) a loyal death eater, *would* hinge on this theory. I made an attempt at a NotQuiteTotallyEvil!Snape theory in post 133503. But (again) my pedantic tendencies kick in...while I personally would evaluate some theory along those lines as the one JKR is *most likely* to confirm in Book 7, I can see where people are coming up with ESE!Snape and Good!Snape theories to some extent. One canon basis for a Good!Snape theory (which can work with or without supposing the *reason* for Snape's remorse is his love of Lily) is found in "Spinner's End". When Snape takes the UV, he instructs Bella on the mechanics of the process. This opens the door to the speculation that Snape has taken a UV in the past. And we have DDs repeated, very firm insistence that he trusts Snape, with McGonagall's claims that DD's reason is "ironclad". It has been suggested that DD trusts Snape because, when Snape came to him originally, he asked to make a UV with DD to prove the sincerity of his remorse. People who take this position, would have to conclude that Snape is still holding up his end of the batgain, as he ios still alive. (Of course, it would matter very much how the UV was worded...) Then add to this any of the numerous Good!Snape posts anlyzing the "argument" Hagrid overheard, the somewhat odd demeanor of both Snape and DD in the tower, the unusual effect of Snape's AK/the emphasis on nonverbal spellcasting in the book, and Snape and Harry's interactions in "The Flight of the Prince". Speaking of the UV...why do you think Snape took it in HBP? I can't find a reason for a loyal DE *or* super-evil-out-for-himself Snape to do this. --zgirnius, Who thinks that, anyway, Snape is provably ESI (Ever So Interesting) From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 02:54:11 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:54:11 -0000 Subject: Legilimency (was: How long has Snape been reading Harry's mind?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134923 Potioncat: >>It has seemed to Harry since the very first book that Snape is "reading" his mind. And it seems very clear that Snape is using Legilimency in CoS when Mrs. Norris has been petrified. He certainly knows that Harry isn't telling the truth.<< HunterGreen: Don't discount Snape's other instincts. I don't think he'd necessarily need Legilimency to know when Harry is lying. I think its equally possible that Snape figured Harry out through less magical means. The only scene that I am sure that Legilmency was being used by someone other than Voldemort (other than the Occulmency lessons) was after Harry's name came out of the goblet in GoF. (that, of course, was Dumbledore using it). Potioncat: >> There must be something to Legilimency that makes it, by itself, unreliable or unacceptable as proof.<< HunterGreen: Its just too subjective, like Veritaserum. The Legilimency charm (or spell, I can't remember if it was specified) that Snape used in OotP conjured only bits and pieces of memories, and unless they are 'magic' memories like the ones in Pensieves (which I doubt they are), they are completely unreliable. Now, wandless legilimency is more obtuse, since we don't know when its been done or how its done or what exactly the legilmens sees. But I doubt it'd be much more reliable, since people lie to themselves nearly as often as they lie to other people. Occulmency, we are told, works by blocking the person from reading your thoughts at all, not by obsuring or confusing them, which, I would think, would need no training at all. If you were attempting to read someone's thoughts and they purposely began to think about a hundred things at once, and purposely contradicted the truth, would you be able to see past that? Or would that take an *extremely good* legilmens? If scrambling your own thoughts would work, than the best legilmency is done covertly. Perhaps though, the wandless Legilimency, is just pulling up memories, like the kind that Snape used in OotP, just the better you are at it, the more exact you can be. But that gets back to how little you can trust someone's memories. I think Legilimency works best when used sparingly, and in specific situations. The scene in GoF is a perfect example. Harry had no idea Legilimency (I am so sick of typing that word) existed, so he had no reason to confuse his thoughts, and since the name just came out, it would, of course, be at the center of his thoughts. It was also a situation where Dumbledore needed to be *sure* that Harry wasn't the one responsible (since Harry sneaking his name into the goblet and someone doing it for him were two VERY different things), otherwise I think its more in his nature to just take Harry's word on it. I'm not sure how Voldemort knows so easily when a DE is lying to him, and the answer could just be that he doesn't. Or at least he would know if one of his followers was trying to deceive him (with something other than Occulmency), by confusing their thoughts, and that's as good as lying. In that case, Legilimency only works because his followers are forced to consent to it. If he were trying to get information out of someone by force, Veritaserum would probably be a much better (and easier) idea. Otherwise, I'd imagine torture might be necessary to wear the person down. - Rebecca / HunterGreen From scarah at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 02:56:14 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:56:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Scar / Snape switched the locket ,/and other theories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3202590507251956525cdbdf@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134924 Auria: > 1. In HBP how come Harry's scar is no longer hurting him? Sarah: Dumbledore explains this. When he picks Harry up, he asks him if his scar has been hurting. Harry says no, which surprises him, he thought it would be. Dumbledore says he isn't surprised, he had figured Voldemort would now be employing Occlumency against Harry. Auria: > I'm also enjoying the theory I read on some posts that DD's 'Oho!' in > the cave means it is really Slughorn. Sarah: But Slughorn is seen at both the meeting called by McGonagall, and at the funeral. Unless Dumbledore is now impersonating Slughorn? Sarah From RoxyElliot at aol.com Tue Jul 26 02:58:01 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:58:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? Message-ID: <197.436e209c.301700b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134925 In a message dated 7/25/2005 9:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, chnc1024 at earthlink.net writes: Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman from the Quibbler article in OOP? DD said that he could hide Draco, what if he hid Regulus when he tried to back out of being a DE? Not that I really think this is plausible, and I doubt anyone besides Luna Lovegood would think it was remotely possible, but I thought I'd post it anyway. Chancie I actually had the same thought. What a great life for someone in witness protection! Upon first consideration it seemed quite silly, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea. It also makes me wonder what other tidbits from the Quibbler might turn out to be true, or have more truth to them that first appears. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 03:09:00 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:09:00 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" wrote: > > I'm with you here all the way. I saw this flaw in Hermione since the > > PS/SS. Hermione is clever in that she has "book smarts" and is no > > doubt a good test taker. But when she's without the books, without > > the instructions, she falls apart as HBP has shown. > > There have been many occasions in the series when Hermione used some > of her book smarts to do something that neither Ron nor Harry could do > because of their relative ignorance. Think back to some of the traps > that were set on the way to the COS, or her coming up with the idea of > using Polyjuice Potion, or the clever SNEAK hex that she used on > Marietta, for example. > > But while I haven't compiled a complete list of the occasions, my > sense is that they are becoming less frequent as the trio gets older > and experience begins to grow in importance. Still, I cannot agree > that Hermione "falls apart" without the instructions, as you have said. > > Ersatz Harry, who would adore Hermione if we were the same age With all due respect, almost anyone can "memorize and regurgitate". A parrot can be trained to memorize and recite Newton's 'De Analysi'. It takes REAL intelligence to be able to think outside of the box with the knowledge base and tools available. The Half Blood Prince = real intelligence because HBP was able to devise hexes, spells and find more efficient ways to create the potions---those things take a combination of book smarts, the application of book smarts and a deeper understanding of that book information---much deeper than reciting memorized passages and superficial applications of that memorized material. As underrated as they are, the Weasley twins are on the same plane as HBP in regards to their application of magic theory and practice. However, Fred and George don't get respect because their magical endeavors are jokes and other seemingly frivolous things, but their creations involve a complex magicks. Moreover their lack of academic excellence tarnishes their reputation amongst people who can't fathom that grade point average does not necessarily indicate intelligence. Issac Newton, Godfried Lymans, Linus Pauling, Blaise Pascal, Bernoulli, etc. were all teenagers or young adults who contributed greatly to science and mathematics---and they did that not by reciting verbatim, but through innovative and creative application of that knowledge. And let's not forget the young men and women who win the prestigious Westinghouse awards. As for falling apart without instructions: yes she does. HBP showed that Hermione is a limited talent because she worships the god of knowledge at the altar of textbooks. Classic case: polyjuice potion brewing---again, Hermione followed instructions in a book. But if you really want to test Hermione's real intelligence vs. booksmarts, you'd have to ask, would Hermione had been able to devise a polyjuice potion, de novo? In other words, if polyjuice potion never existed, would Hermione been able to create a polyjuice potion? My guess is no, because as she's demonstrated in the past books, Hermione depends too heavily on what the textbook and not on creatively applying that information. She worships the god of knowledge at the altar of the textbook. Don't get me wrong, she does apply the info, but she does so in a superficial manner. The greats of science, mathematic, medicine, literature, music, cooking, etc. were great because they "broke" the rules of convention and opened up new avenues of possibility and thought.. In doing so they opened up a new world of possibilities. Again, I'm not saying that Hermione isn't bright and isn't a good student, but don't inflate her abilities to something more than it really is. Also, I've seen what happens to "talented and gifted kids". Some of them become even more talented and gifted--these are the kids who are the innovators and who realize that book knowledge isn't all the knowledge in the world. These are the kids who constantly are searching for answers and pushing the limits to find those answers because they know the books don't contain everything. Some of them peak at the age of 14 to 16 and progress no further because they mistakenly believe that everything can be found in a book. So Hermione's "dumbing down" in this book came as no surprize to me. Her intellectual growth is stagnating because she's taken the role of a walking encyclopedia as opposed to the role of a fountain of ideas, discovery and innovation. And Rowling uses her well as that sort of plot device--a walking encyclopedia who conveniently offers some bit of information in a book that Ron nor Harry has bothered to read. Milz From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:15:28 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:15:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar / Snape switched the locket ,/and other theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: ...edited... > I have two questions which I'd like other people's comments on: > > 1. In HBP how come Harry's scar is no longer hurting him? Juli: when Dumbledore picks Harry up at Privet Drive, and just when they arrive at the Burrow, Dumbledore asks Harry if his scar's been hurting, Harry answers No, and he thinks it's weird, Dumbledore says it's because Voldemort is using occlumency against Harry. > 2. When Harry retrieves the locket from Dumbledore's pocket after he > has been killed by Snape, Harry notices the locket is smaller than > the one he remembered seeing in the Pensieve right? Well, is it > possible that DD and Harry DID retrieve the real horcrux locket but > that it was switched by Snape and Malfoy from DD's body at the foot > of the tower just before Harry caught up with them? If so then this > would mean Snape IS a triple agent and has taken the real horcrux to > destroy it. > Could this be possible? Juli: I don't think so, Dumbledore, seemed to know the Horcrux was a fake from the moment he took it, I guess that he just didn't want Harry to know, how horrible would he feel knowing that he made Dumbledore drink that poison for nothing? I think DD was going to tell him eventually. But of course, I could be completely wrong, and Snape changed the locket, the question is When? Was Snape ever alone with Dumbledore? As I remember he wasn't. Juli From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:28:49 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:28:49 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134928 Milz wrote: ...edited... > With all due respect, almost anyone can "memorize and regurgitate". It takes REAL intelligence to be able to think outside of the box with the knowledge base and tools available. The Half Blood Prince = real intelligence because HBP was able to devise hexes, spells and find> more efficient ways to create the potions--- those things take a combination of book smarts, the application of book smarts and a deeper understanding of that book information--- much deeper than reciting memorized passages and superficial applications of that memorized material. > > As underrated as they are, the Weasley twins are on the same plane as HBP in regards to their application of magic theory and practice. Juli: I agree with you Milz. I got the following definition from Encarta: Intelligence, term usually referring to a general mental capability to reason, solve problems, think abstractly, learn and understand new material, and profit from past experience. Intelligence can be measured by many different kinds of tasks. Likewise, this ability is expressed in many aspects of a person's life. Intelligence draws on a variety of mental processes, including memory, learning, perception, decision-making, thinking, and reasoning. Hermione is a very smart girl, no doubt about that, she memorizes every single book she can get her hands on, but does she *really* know what it says? It's easy to memorize a poem, but to actually know what it means is another story. Hermione gets all her answers from books, she trusts books more than anything, and she seems to dream about them (when she smell the Love Potion it reminded her of books!). Einstein is as we all know, one of the most intelligent men that has ever existed, but when he was at school, he used to fail classes, he wasn't a good student; and yet he was extremely intelligent. He managed to see beyond other people, he invented stuff, he made theories, he went beyond all of us. Now, do I think Hermione could do that? Nope. She's book-smart, she doesn't experiment, she doesn't invent. Fred and George, wow, they are real geniuses in my book, they have the ability to take the knowledge they have and with it create new things. Intelligence has a new definition (don't have the quote, sorry), and it is the capability to relate to others, to form relationships and sustain them. Their ability to communicate. Hermione clearly doesn't have it (remember in PS she had no friends?). Harry has it, Fred and George have it, Ron also, Ginny a lot... Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, create... She can't think outside the box. Juli From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:27:16 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:27:16 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134929 Zgirnius wrote: > Speaking of the UV...why do you think Snape took it in HBP? I can't > find a reason for a loyal DE *or* super-evil-out-for-himself Snape to > do this. Alla: I actually can say the opposite. I think that if Snape was at that moment at the side of good, he would NOT have taken UV in the first place. I mean, Bella was against Narcissa divulging her secrets to Snape in the first place, right? All that Snape needed to say, was to tell her that as a loyal follower of Dark Lord, Narcissa should keep her secrets and /or her son's secrets in the first place and not tell them to anybody, even to him. I mean it is easy to say afterwards - Snape did not have a choice but to kill Dumbledore because he took a Vow. My question is why Snape took a Vow in the first place, especially if he indeed knew what Draco's task is. It was incredibly reckless to say the least, IMO. > > --zgirnius, Who thinks that, anyway, Snape is provably ESI (Ever So > Interesting) Alla: THAT we absolutely agree on. I find him MUCH more interesting after HBP. JMO, Alla. From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 03:29:29 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:29:29 -0000 Subject: Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? In-Reply-To: <410-22005722611337963@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134930 OMG, what a funny idea!! Well, they are brothers, maybe they look alike and that's why Luna thought it was Sirius. (Although, one would think that Sirius would recognize his own brother.) Allie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chancie " wrote: > Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but > I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman > from the Quibbler article in OOP? DD said that he > could hide Draco, what if he hid Regulus when > he tried to back out of being a DE? Not that > I really think this is plausible, and I doubt anyone > besides Luna Lovegood would think it was remotely > possible, but I thought I'd post it anyway. > > Chancie > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:35:04 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:35:04 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134931 Alla wrote ...edited... >> My question is why Snape took a Vow in the first place, especially if he indeed knew what Draco's task is. Juli: I think Snape took the vow because 1) He wants to protect Draco, he really cares about him, it's not just to mantain his cover, 2)He wants to gain Bella's trust, 3)Dumbledore must have told him to do whatever it took to find out how Draco was going to complete his task, 3)He's Snape, we never really know what makes him tic ;) >> Zgirnius wrote:, Who thinks that, anyway, Snape is provably ESI (Ever So Interesting) Alla replied: >> THAT we absolutely agree on. Juli: Me too, If Snape turns out to be good, evil, neutral or whatever, what's really important is that he's kept us talking about him for over 10 years, if that isn't being interesting I don't know what is! Juli From clarivocal at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:50:44 2005 From: clarivocal at yahoo.com (Michal Barnea) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726035044.11584.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134932 > Hermione is a very smart girl, no doubt about that, she memorizes > every single book she can get her hands on, but does she *really* > know what it says? It's easy to memorize a poem, but to actually > know what it means is another story. Hermione gets all her answers > from books, she trusts books more than anything, and she seems to > dream about them (when she smell the Love Potion it reminded her of > books!). just in hermione's defense, i think it's important to remember that she's not *only* book smart. in OotP, she very accurately interpreted umbridge's comments at the start of term feast, telling harry and ron that the ministry was interfering at hogwarts. we should also keep in mind that she was able to separate her combined poison in slughorn's class to try and come up with the antidote. that, to me, seems like an advanced application of concepts learned, rather than simple regurgitation of facts read in a book. as for the fact that she seemed to struggle a bit in the advanced potions class, i can speak to that. i always had a really easy time with math at the simple levels. i never had to work all that hard at it, so that by the time i got to the AP level in my last two years of high school, it was suddenly like, "what? this isn't supposed to be hard!" i understand her frustration at a new-found difficulty with a subject that used to come easy to her. michal (who realizes she forgot to include the page numbers for the quote she used in her last post... whoops!) "...the world isn't split between good people and death eaters." -- Sirius Black, The Order of the Phoenix "There is a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage yours." -- Westley, The Princess Bride From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 03:55:06 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:55:06 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134933 > Alla: > > I actually can say the opposite. I think that if Snape was at that > moment at the side of good, he would NOT have taken UV in the first > place. zgirnius: Suppose Snape does not know the task. And, suppose he truly wants to be a useful spy for the Order. Both Narcissa and Bella describe the task in terms which would have any spy *very eager* to hear more. "It is...very secret." "Draco should be proud," ... "The Dark Lord is granting him a great honor." This sounds like it could be the secret that makes the whole double- agent game pay off, no? But despite a lengthy conversation *around* the main point, neither lady drops any concrete hints. However, Cissy does go all emotional and desperate over her poor little Draco. Snape sees his opening, and suggests he could help. Narcissa then makes two comments, the point of which is that she hopes Snape will protecxt and look after Draco. Then she suggests the UV. What does Snape expect she will ask? Why, that he protect and look after Draco. It's risky, but not *too* much so. Draco will, after all, be at Hogwarts, in his classes and House. And DD (for one) would be perfectly happy to help protect Draco, probably in ways Cissy never intended. So when Bella jumps on the suggestion, he agrees. It's clearly going to get the ladies to trust him more. He's oh so calm and collected as he agrees to clauses one and two. Then Cissy pops clause three on him (perform the task "if it seems Draco will fail"), and his hand twitches. He did not see that request coming, I bet, Cissy's distraught mother act worked. I think that the mechanics of the vow are probably such that Snape *could* say uh-uh, Cissy, that's asking too much...but he's got his cover as a loyal DE to consider. And a fraction of a second in which to make his decision. This is why for me a Sincere!Snape theory is most convincing, but I'm very open to other explanations for the UV. (Note I do not say Good! Snape...all this chapter suggests to me is that Snape is really trying to spy for DD. I do not rule out that after making this big mistake, Snape keeps it from DD, and kills DD to avoid the consequences of his own mistake. Not exactly *good*.) From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 04:07:28 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:07:28 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134934 ---Big snippy Juli: > Intelligence has a new definition (don't have the quote, sorry), and > it is the capability to relate to others, to form relationships and > sustain them. Their ability to communicate. Hermione clearly doesn't > have it (remember in PS she had no friends?). Harry has it, Fred and > George have it, Ron also, Ginny a lot... > > Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very > smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, > create... She can't think outside the box. > > Juli There is a great deal of validity to your comments but don't forget the coins she created in OotP. She had to spend a little time out of the box for that. I think the intelegence you are talking about is refered to as "EQ" or emotional intelegence. I think Hermione has a fair amount of that as well. Of course when she was 11 and in a new school, muggle born and scared to death, it was lacking but I think it is pretty high at this point. She certainly had her finger on the pulse of what was bothering Cho better than Harry did. I don't see Ron having any at all until the end of HBP when he had run through Lavender and finaly came into his own. Sue(hpfan) From xirene101 at cs.com Tue Jul 26 03:39:05 2005 From: xirene101 at cs.com (xirene101 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:39:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? Message-ID: <6201B760.6F393101.02AAF381@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134935 Allie: >OMG, what a funny idea!! Well, they are brothers, maybe they look >alike and that's why Luna thought it was Sirius. (Although, one >would think that Sirius would recognize his own brother.) > Allie, I would tend to agree with you, but perhaps he wasn't in on the secret (having been out of the loop in Azkaban and all) and was still under the impression that his brother was dead. He may have just thought "Hmm, that Boardman guy looks a lot like my little brother did when he was alive." I love the Regulus/Stubby theory! :) ~Sue From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 26 04:40:01 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:40:01 EDT Subject: MoM Delores Message-ID: <102.65b70c59.301718a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134936 I am deeply concerned about the lack of change at the Ministry of Magic... It's bad enough that Cornelius Fudge (who is at least sacked as MofM), and Percy are still employed... Rufus is at least as much a political chameleon as Fudge, and obviously is as much interested in his image and power as Fudge was -- if he is supposed to be more decisive and competent.....(that remains to be seen). I wonder why Arthur was promoted...was that a sop to Professor Dumbledore and his supporters? The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of Delores Umbridge.....! I cannot imagine why parents have not risen up and demanded that she be sent to Azkaban....or at least driven out of the MoM... First, she illegally sent Dementors after Harry and Dudley..which almost resulted in their souls being sucked out of them... Then, she physically abused Harry and at least one other Hogwarts student by having them cut their own hands with a quill.... She illegally used Veritaserum (or she thought she was using it), as well as started to perform the Cruciatus curse..thought that using those curses earned someone a life sentence in Azkaban.... Susan McGee Susan McGee _SusanGSMcGee at aol.com_ (mailto:SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) FREE STAN SHUNPIKE! Albus Dumbledore -- R.I.P. Want to discuss the books with older adults? Email me at _SusanGSMcGee at aol.com_ (mailto:SusanGSMcGee at aol.com) to join Harry Potter for Grownups OVER FORTY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermystheories at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 03:41:03 2005 From: hermystheories at gmail.com (Mrs. Hermione Snape) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:41:03 -0700 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux (spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134937 Jocelyn wrote: > > - He disappears at some point. We only ever see Caractacus Borgin > in the shop these days. > > Judging by the evil reputation of Borgin and Burke it is > not too unreasonable to assume that he had an affinity with dark > magic. I think he is a good contender. Actually, it's Caractacus Burke--it's his memory that we see in DD's pensieve. Borgin is never given a first name. But your reasoning for why it's Burke would also apply to Borgin! --Mrs. HS -- Gmail is fantastic for sorting through the 80-bajillion emails per day I get from HPforGrownUps. Email me privately if you'd like an invite. From jellocat at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 02:43:40 2005 From: jellocat at comcast.net (Jellocat) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:43:40 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore is not Dead site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134938 Have you all seen this: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com Very intriguing. :-D I think it's the guy that created Wizard News. Very cool. "Jellocat" From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 04:15:23 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:15:23 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134939 > Laura's Original Post: > It is curious to me that Hermione is so condemning of > the notes in the margins of the HBP's potions book. It > is true that they may be dangerous, and she has always > been wary of the implications of anything unusual. But > I would have thought that, once she sees how effective > they are, she would have wondered why they weren't > incorporated into the regular textbook. > > Laura's Clarification: > I am just surprised that Hermione's reaction to the notes > in the book isn't a little more analytical. Sure, > she is cautious, but I would have thought that instead of > outright rejection, she would have thoughtfully judged the > changes. I, for one, think that Hermione is just human and was being outdone by Harry with the help of some notes in his book so Hermione tried to discredit it. I think this was an example of her ego getting in the way more than anything else. Casmir From leslie41 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 04:25:47 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:25:47 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134940 "Cindy" wrote: > Another thing I have been wondering about: > > pg 604 Am. Ed. > > "You dare use my own spells against me Potter? It was I who > invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my > inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" > > How did James know Snape's spells to use them on him? Interesting! Obviously it's levicorpus that James used on Snape, as we see in OotP when Snape is dangling upside down with his grey underwear showing. Well, James somehow got ahold Snape's book, obviously. Filched it, most likely. Snape would never give up the book voluntarily to his worst enemy, annotated as it was with his excellent notes. But obviously, Snape got it back, as it was in storage in his old potions classroom. Though truthfully, as a teacher, I cannot imagine leaving something so precious in my old office. It doesn't seem like Snape to just leave it lying around, but then it had to get into Harry's hands, did it not? "Leslie41" From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Jul 26 04:30:02 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:30:02 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow: A thought experiment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134941 Okay, here is a scenario that has come to me. I'm in no way arguing it will happen, it is only playing with themes. What is the main theme around Peter Pettigrew? What one quote sums up the big questions that lurk with regard to Wormtail. I submit it's when he says that if he hadn't betrayed the Potters Voldemort would have killed him, and he is answered "Then you should have died, as we would have died for you." In other words, the theme is trust. What is the main theme with Snape? Trust, once again. And once again we are provided a situation in which, on the face of it, a man has to keep faith with his friends and die or break faith with his friends and live. And Harry calling Snape a coward at the end of OOTP surely hit a nerve. As someone has recently commented, the insults that hit home are the ones that, deep in our own hearts, we think are true. We know Peter owes Harry. We know Peter is working for Snape. Will the theme of trust arise yet again? A scene provided for your approval or contempt: Snape, Harry, and Wormtail in confrontation. HARRY: How could you have done it? HOW? SNAPE: If I had not killed Dumbledore, I would have died. WORMTAIL: Then you should have died, as he would have died for you. And thus the fall of Snape is the redemption of Peter. What think you? Lupinlore From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 04:33:44 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:33:44 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134942 Vivian: : despite his aiding and abetting a more competent and lethal squad of death eaters entering Hogwarts - especially that loveable ol'Fenrir Greyback who would like nothing more than to crunch and munch as many students as he possibly could..... {why, I'm just FEELIN' the luv for poor old misunderstood Sevvy for THAT ...} despite AKing Dumbledore (for whatever reason - and please don't talk about assisted suicide without a foot of parchment of proof for that theory indicating how the wizarding community is best served with DD gone) Schumar: Although I think Vivian made some good points, I have to vehemently disagree with the first snipped statement above, and both agree and disagree with the second snipped paragraph. First of all, Snape was NOT "aiding and abetting a competent and lethal squad of death eaters." Remember, he did not know what Draco's plan was _exactly_, because Draco seemed to think that if Snape knows, he won't be helping Draco but only helping himself and taking the glory as his own. Snape even had to attempt legilimency to get more information out ofthe young Malfoy, and that was unsuccessful. (Snape commented that Aunt Bellatrix must be teaching Occlumency). Here's another thing -- Snape was in his office when the death eaters came through the cabinet, and only surfaced after Dumbledore called for him. (I feel I must again bring up at this point that Snape did not kill Flitwick, Hermione, Luna, or anyone else in his path when surely he could have done so and still gotten to Draco and Dumbledore.) Even Draco did not intend for Greyback to come through, he only thought that Greyback was working to make sure Bourgin was doing what he was supposed to, and did not invite him to Hogwarts. Even during the Great Escape, Snape acontinued to "instruct" Harry , and preventedother death eaters from hurting Harry. His claim to be saving Harry for Voldemort seems to me to be a cover because none of the death eaters (and even no ones else in the Order except Dumbledore) know the entire prophecy, that Harry must be killed by Voldemort himself and vice versa. Rather than rallying with his "fellow" death eaters, Snape escapes with Draco, and I'm guessing they did not go to Voldemort himself but somewhere safe, much like Lucious is keeping himself in Azkaban because surely Voldemort will punish him more severely if he's out. I am seriously considering that, as sad as we are to lose Dumbledore, his days were numbered. Thus there was the urgency for his private lessons with Harry, to impart every possible bit of information on Voldemort (know thy enemy!) and his past and motivations and then it will be safe to die. I think that knowing what we know about Legilimency and Nonverbal Spells, plus all the canon evidence of what the results of an (unforgiveable) AK -- whooshing sound, eyes open... and an Impedimentia -- the lifting off the feet, Dumbledore's eyes closed as if he was sleeping... I'm not calling it assisted suicide, but I think Dumbledore knows that he is near death, Snape must appear to still be a Death Eater to all the others, and Harry must go on to Voldemort on his own... or at least without the physical presence of Dumbledore. Perhaps Dumbledore even knows that he needs to be out of the way for Harry to have the strength he needs, and I don't think that Dumbledore cares as much about how the rest of the wizarding world needs him as he cares about how what Harry needs, which would in turn be what's best for the good wizards of the world. Such is the genious of Dumbledore, I think. Marianne S. From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 04:38:55 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:38:55 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134943 Sue wrote: > but don't forget the coins she created in OotP. She had to > spend a little time out of the box for that. Actually, she got the idea of the protean charm (for DA members) from the Dark Mark tatooed unto Death Eaters. She admits this to Harry. In reality, her that is only evidence of the same thing Harry does this year in potions - copy. - Ahson From verysherryk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 04:41:00 2005 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:41:00 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134944 > Mari wrote: > Readers respond to Shylock in the same way as readers respond > to Snape; both characters are unsettling and ambiguous. > > Shylock functions as a plot catalyst and complicating factor > for Shakespeare, and Snape similarly functions as a plot > catalyst and complicating factor in the story for Rowling. > This is the main reason why I don't think Rowling is finished > with Snape yet. > > Here's the link to my original message and ideas about this: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134889 Sherry: I agree that modern audiences see Shylock as ambiguous, but Shakespearean audiences would not. English audiences were not only anti-semitic, but also despised moneylending. Shylock's moneylending might have meant more than his being Jewish. He was intended to be the villain, but Shakespeare is a great character author and transformed Shylock from a flat stereotype to a complex character. In support of your point, Snape is seen as a death eater, which is also considered evil. Once again, instead of a stale character, we have rich, complex characters. From rklarreich at aol.com Tue Jul 26 04:41:51 2005 From: rklarreich at aol.com (rklarreich at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:41:51 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore Message-ID: <76.57e2fe39.3017190f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134945 Juli writes: > I keep thinking of PS, why else would DD show Harry the "use" of the mirror of Erised if he didn't want Harry to face Quirell? There could be another reason here. Snape says in Chapter 2 of HBP that many of Voldemort's old supporters wondered if Harry might turn out to be a powerful dark wizard they could rally around. In other words, when he started at Hogwarts he was pretty much an unknown quantity--nobody knew *how* he had survived Voldemort's attack. Even Dumbledore says to McGonagall in Chapter 1 that they can only guess. Of course, Harry's personality should have made it clear fairly early on in his Hogwarts career that he was OK, but Dumbledore might have been cautious; after all, there was a lot at stake here and he hadn't been close to Harry himself. He could only have received secondhand reports from Harry's teachers (and Tom Riddle had managed to charm all of *his* teachers). If I remember correctly, Dumbledore doesn't actually talk to Harry directly in Philosopher's Stone until the Mirror of Erised chapter. So, if Dumbledore wants to make absolutely sure that Harry, whose life circumstances so far are very similar to Tom Riddle's, isn't a Tom Riddle personality, what better way than to sit him in front of the Mirror of Erised and find out what he sees? Thus, it might not have to do with Quirrell at all. *** I hate to make all roads lead back to Snape, but I've been turning around in my mind the reason why I'm sure Snape is still on the good side, and it fits in with the Omniscient DD thread, so here it is, or at least part of it. >From a literary standpoint, the longer a secret is concealed, the more impressive it had better be when the author finally reveals it. Where Snape is concerned, we've had Dumbledore insisting throughout the series that he trusts Snape absolutely for a reason he won't reveal. This sets the stage for an amazing revelation: what could it possibly be? Now, in book 6, what do we get? A rather feeble story that makes everyone in the Order who hears it (and the reader) say "Huh??!" After all this buildup, this CAN'T be the whole story. There has to be more to it than that, and that means we'll be getting the rest of it in book 7. And with all this extra buildup, it better be good. So good, in fact, that it convinces us as well. In the meantime, making Snape appear guilty at the end of book 6 while also end up heightening the effect of the final revelation. Incidentally, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust of Snape is between him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. This too suggests that there is more to it than Snape's repentance over betraying Harry's parents, which *is* Harry's business. Roberta From snailpowr342 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 04:43:15 2005 From: snailpowr342 at sbcglobal.net (snailpower342) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:43:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's timing. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134946 Most of the evidence for Snape's motives have been thoroughly exhausted, but has anyone discussed the timing of Dumbledore's death? It could be said that this was the first moment in which Snape has come across Dumbledore so weak and vulnerable, but on page 503 of HBP Dumbledore says: "Had it not been...for my own prodigous skill, and Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." This time Snape saves Dumbledore... Snape has had countless encounters with Dumbledore alone... why does he choose that one specific moment? Is it because he is surrounded by witnesses? Since Voldemort has ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore, he is obviously not looking for personal vengence. Snape could have killed Dumbledore any time for Voldemort's satisfaction. This time though, he will be given undeniable credit for Dumbledore's death by fellow Death Eaters... Or is it the coinciding incident of Draco's failure? At this moment Snape only has two choices. Kill Dumbledore, or die himself. Even if this in no way proves Snape's allegience to Dumbledore, it does suggest that he waited until the last possible second. I am a firm believer in Dumbledore's trust, but I wondered what you all thought about this specific evidence. Have I missed anything? Niki and MFlo The Noble and Most Ancient House of Pancakes From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 26 05:43:45 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:43:45 -0000 Subject: FILK: Die, Bones Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134947 Die, Bones To the tune of the old spiritual Dry Bones Dedicated to SSSusan THE SCENE: A CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS celebrates the Dark Lord's success stories during Book Six, beginning with the murder of Amelia Susan Bones CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS De Dark Lord disrespected dat Sue Bones De Dark Lord disrespected dat Sue Bones De Dark Lord disrespected dat Sue Bones She got the bird from our Lord. Dat Sue Bones rejected like dat Ed Bones Dat Vance crone rejected when she alone Dat Karkaroff got carted off and laid prone Florean got froze in an ice cream cone Ollivander wander off to unknown Muggle town get hit by Giant cyclone Muggle bridge collapsing with a big groan Shunpike to the slammer gets himself thrown Voters telling Fudge that he be disowned Dumble take a tumble offa his thrown They got the bird from our Lord! Die, Bones, Die, Bones, dat dead Bones Die, Bones Die, Bones, dat dead Bones Die, Bones Die, Bones, dat dead Bones She got the bird from our Lord! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 05:53:01 2005 From: silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com (Silent Screamer) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MoM Delores In-Reply-To: <102.65b70c59.301718a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050726055301.52487.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134948 Susan McGee says > The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of > Delores Umbridge.....! I > cannot imagine why parents have not risen up and > demanded that she be sent to > Azkaban....or at least driven out of the MoM... > > First, she illegally sent Dementors after Harry and > Dudley..which almost > resulted in their souls being sucked out of them... > > Then, she physically abused Harry and at least one > other Hogwarts student by > having them cut their own hands with a quill.... > > She illegally used Veritaserum (or she thought she > was using it), as well as > started to perform the Cruciatus curse..thought that > using those curses > earned someone a life sentence in Azkaban.... Silence says The thing I wonder is, DOES the general public of the WW know about these things? It would have been pretty embarressing for the Ministry if these stories got out, considering they were the ones who put her there in the first place. Maybe these were stories that didn't make it out in the Prophet for two reasons. One, the Ministry wanted to cover them up (and we all know how much influence the Ministry has on the DP) and two, it might have gotten less attention even if the Ministry didn't do anything to cover it up. I would think that the return of LV would be taking up most of the front pages. Perhaps these stories didn't get covered at all, or they were so buried in the back pages that no one saw them. ~Silence __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 05:53:17 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:53:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Weasley Clock Message-ID: <1ff.658cb63.301729cd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134949 In a message dated 7/25/2005 3:27:36 PM Central Standard Time, mandyallen286 at fsmail.net writes: Yes, I see what you mean. However, I suspect that the 'clock' is not really a clock but a magical device within a grandfather clock case. If you have seen grandfather clocks you may know that the 'hood', which is the part that covers the face, comes off by pulling it Melissa now: Or maybe she magically shrunk it to a more managable size to carry around with her. I'd think that surely they'd make watches capable of doing the same thing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 05:06:47 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:06:47 -0000 Subject: MoM Dolores In-Reply-To: <102.65b70c59.301718a1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134950 Susan: The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of Dolores Umbridge.....! I cannot imagine why parents have not risen up and demanded that she be sent to Azkaban....or at least driven out of the MoM... Schumar: HALLELUJAH!! My friends and I were just talking about this tonight, and I was looking through the posts to figure out if I was going to write something myself or just do replies, and you beat me to it. I am so glad that other people are thinking about this, too. Unfortunately, we see a lot of people in government (not just in MoM) that should be prison... So I wonder if keeping her in the Ministry was a way to show that the ministry has its corruptions and cover-ups, too. Perhaps she has too much information on other ministry members and their cover-ups to be trusted to go on trial for fear of what she might reveal. We also don't know in what capacity she is serving at the ministry. Maybe she was severely demoted? I do agree with you... she should be in prison or at least doing some community service, or working in a department where her new boss was a werewolf. In addition to all her sins and lawbreaking at Hogwarts, she is also responsible for some clearly evil legislation... which in turn probably made it easier for Voldemort and Greyback to recruit-- the other Werewolves don't see many options. It's still eerie that many can argue that this is no different than what happens in some Muggle governments. I think I understand Rowling's motivation for having Umbridge at the funeral... I think she even mentioned in an interview that she wanted to have Umbridge there because of the Centaurs, Firenze in particular. So, what I'm saying is... maybe Rowling kept her at the ministry to show that the ministry of magic is no better than muggle governments when it comes to corruption, and maybe the ministry kept her because they don't want to expose their own culpability for the events at Hogwarts the previous year, and a cover-up or just "ignoring the facts and they'll go away" might be seen as better. Especially since the the whole wizarding community KNOWS the truth now about Voldemort, anything to show wrongdoing and liability on the part of the MoM would make things that much worse for them. Wow... it's too late and I should stop rambling. Sorry if that wasn't as cohesive as I would have liked. Marianne S. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 05:58:27 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:58:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore as Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134951 In a message dated 7/24/2005 3:22:29 PM Central Standard Time, zanelupin at yahoo.com writes: I infer from what Dumbledore says that his Unplottable spell was meant to keep away the likes of Bellatrix Lestrange and other Black family members from finding the house. Is there a difference? I think that there would have to be a big difference. After all if Sirius' dad made it unplottable to other wizards that would mean his own pureblood relatives as well. I can't see him doing that. Muggles yes, other "non blood traitors" no. Now DD OTOH had a vested interested in make it unplotable to all but those to whom he lets in on the secret. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ciceronian at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 04:46:35 2005 From: ciceronian at hotmail.com (~Maitresse) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:46:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's first class Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134952 I don't know if this has been discussed before as I have not been keeping as close an eye on the list as I should have been. But here goes... Was anyone confused by Snape saying the Dark Lord in front of his entire class? It seemed kind of odd to me that he would not use "You- know-who", if he was supposed to be pretending to be on the side of the good. Why would say the Dark Lord when only his followers refer to him as that? Just curious... ~Maitresse From a1batross at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 05:15:47 2005 From: a1batross at yahoo.com (Bob Alberti) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:15:47 -0000 Subject: DD and Lily's Charm Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134953 Holy smokes! Um, this just occurred to me, but... DD says explicitly that Harry was protected by Lily's charm because Lily deliberately chose to die. DD deliberately chose to die to protect his students. Think about it. What kind of whammy is waiting for the next person to try AK on Draco? Did DD's death confer the kind of protection on Draco that Lily conferred on Harry? Did it extend to Harry? Did it extend to all the Hogwarts students? Did it extend to the castle itself? -- Bob Alberti, Internet Security Dude Author of 'Mitlanyal' at http://zotpub.com From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 06:00:50 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:00:50 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mari" wrote: > I've been thinking further about how Snape is structured as a > character through the series so far. > > Others have mentioned possible parallels between Snape and > Gollum. > > Another interesting parallel, however, becomes evident if you > compare Snape to the character of Shylock in "The Merchant of > Venice". > > Consider the following: > > 1) Shylock, like Snape, is unsettlingly ambiguous. Those who > wish to play him as a comic villain point to his eagerness to get > his 'pound of flesh'. Those who incline to the tragic hero > interpretation point to his "Hath not a jew eyes?" speech : > > ". . . I am a Jew. > Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, > dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with > the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject > to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, > warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, > as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? > If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you > poison us, shall we not die?" (III, i, 58-66) > > This problem with interpreting Shylock reminds me of > arguments on list about things that Snape has said and done in > canon which can be interpreted in two contradictory ways :-) > > 2) Shylock, like Snape, is absolutely critical to the structure of > the > story in which he appears. Shylock's actions drive a large part of > the story of the play (most of it hinges on his claim for a pound of > flesh from Antonio) yet, like Snape, he is not the hero of the story > and not meant to be taken as such. Similarly, many of the events > involving Snape, and the choices he has to make, are absolutely > critical to Harry's story, but Snape is not the hero of the story, > Harry is. > > 3) What this leaves me wondering is how far this parallel will go. > The way "The Merchant of Venice" is written, it is impossible to > finally determine which way Shylock is meant to be played; the > way I interpret it is that Shylock is, in reality, both comic > villain and > tragic hero. This is why "Merchant" is one of Shakespeare's > better written comedies. The question is, does Rowling intend > for us to look at Snape in the same paradoxical way? Can he > exist as a character who has both villainous and heroic traits? > > > Of course, the parallel may break down in the last book because > the story arc requires Snape to either make a final choice that > will resolve his fate, or else reveal that he has already made it. > > Thoughts? > > Mari. Valky (Leaving the original intact for context): Believe it or not, this is exactly how I view Snapes role myself. In this message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134905 I wrote similarly (before reading Mari's post and I have never read The Merchant *blush*) about Severus in my post that Snapes choices are critical to Harry's story and that I believe it will be revealed that Snape has made the choice which will resolve his fate. Mari, your post has made me curious about comparing Snape to Shylock. I wonder now more about him (Shylock), and I'd be interested in hearing more of your interpretation of his final role in The Merchant of Venice, I'll be off to read a bit of it myself in the while. Valky From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 05:12:35 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:12:35 -0000 Subject: MoM Dolores In-Reply-To: <102.65b70c59.301718a1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134955 > Susan McGee: > The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of Dolores > Umbridge.....! I cannot imagine why parents have not risen > up and demanded that she be sent to Azkaban....or at least > driven out of the MoM... > > First, she illegally sent Dementors after Harry and Dudley.. > which almost resulted in their souls being sucked out of them... > > Then, she physically abused Harry and at least one other > Hogwarts student by having them cut their own hands with a > quill.... > > She illegally used Veritaserum (or she thought she was using > it), as well as started to perform the Cruciatus curse..thought > that using those curses earned someone a life sentence in > Azkaban.... I really don't think a lot of that got out to the public. I seriously doubt Umbridge's group of patrolling students would say anything about the little they do know of, and I don't remmber Harry telling anybody about the rest (like who sent the dementors). I did find JKR's explanation of Umbridge's character very interesting. (She said Umbridge was the sort that supports what ever system is in power.) She comes across a little more committed than merely supporting whomever is in power. ~Casmir From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Tue Jul 26 06:03:28 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:03:28 -0000 Subject: Use of the term "Dark Lord" (WAS: Snape's first class) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134956 ~Maitresse wrote: > Was anyone confused by Snape saying the Dark Lord in front of his > entire class? It seemed kind of odd to me that he would not use "You- > know-who", if he was supposed to be pretending to be on the side of > the good. Why would say the Dark Lord when only his followers refer to > him as that? This needs to be made into a FAQ, this question. The term is used, on cursory glance, by Albus, Peter, Ginny, Ernie, Draco, Lucius, Harry, Snape (in GOF, in from of Fudge), Fudge, Karkaroff... The last, Karkaroff, uses it when ingratiating himself to the ministry in GOF, so the term, though the exclusive one for DE members, is not at all exclusive to them. It's more like the poetic form, the casual form, say. dan From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:05:44 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:05:44 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134957 Julie wrote: > DD pretty much does what will help him achieve his goals, > period, thus he put Slughorn and more particularly Snape > *exactly* where he wanted them both, IMO. Now Janeway: I'm curious to know why so many folks seem to believe in an all- knowing, all-powerful Dumbledore (or nearly so), when there's soooo much canon pointing to his mistakes. It hardly seems necessary to reiterate what they are, as most of them form the plots of the previous books: LV!Quirrel, TR!Ginny, Spy!Pettigrew and Innocent! Sirius, Polyjuice!Barty, and the big reveal of OOP that DD blames himself for Sirius death because he didn't trust Harry with the truth about the prophecy. You have to do some pretty hard theorizing to explain away all of these mistakes (not that I haven't tried!!). So it surprises me that many people seem to base their belief in Good!Snape wholly or partly on their belief that DD could never make a mistake like that. What's the evidence for an all-but-omniscient Dumbledore? (BTW, I don't mean to suggest that Julie thinks that DD is omniscient, or that she thinks DD could never have made a mistake about Snape. Her post was just a trigger in my mind for this more general question.) Julie now: Actually I don't believe in omniscient Dumbledore, and from the posts I've read there aren't many people on this list who do. We know that Dumbledore has made mistakes, and he has no problem admitting them. The distinction may come down to the magnitude of mistakes, and having misjudged Severus throughout 16+ years of constant contact with him would be a mistake of enormous magnitude and consequence. And when we consider Dumbledore's abilities--Occlumency, Legilimency, and probably every other -mency known to the WW--it seems doubly absurd that he couldn't have seen through Snape, as he quickly saw through Tom Riddle. I'd also add that some of the mistakes you list above, like TR!Ginny and Spy!Pettigrew and Innocent!Snape, weren't exactly mistakes. Dumbledore lacked the knowledge and the close contact to recognize these situations for what they were. He has had an enormous amount of close contact and probably more knowledge than he'd like when it comes to Severus Snape. So while I agree that Dumbledore isn't omniscient, I do think he is a powerful wizard and fairly astute when it comes to judging character. I think he's made mistakes, misjudged situations and sometimes people, but the one mistake I don't think he made was in trusting Severus Snape. Julie again: > > > And it's not like Dumbledore has hired teachers with the most > competence, especially in DADA, given that he let that dimwit > Lockheart teach DADA one year. And Quirrell didn't seem all > that great either (certainly Umbridge wasn't though DD had > nothing to do with that). Janeway again: Julie, first thanks for reading and replying thoughtfully to my excessively long post! Second, aren't you trying to have it both ways here? DD does just what will help him achieve his goals, but he sometimes hires incompetent teachers? I guess one could argue that hiring incompetent teachers *did* help him achieve his goals in these particular cases, or that the incompetent teachers at least didn't *prevent* him from achieving his goals. I think it makes more sense to recognize that DD has the normal limitations of a headmaster in finding good teachers and sometimes has to make compromises. JMO, Janeway Julie now: I do agree DD has limitations as headmaster, in not only can he not spend a lot of time with his prospective teacher, but because there is often a lack of qualified teachers to choose from. DD said that in CoS, basically admitting he brought Lockhart to Hogwarts because there was no one else qualified for the position. I do think, though, that DD became quickly aware that Lockhart's qualifications on paper were very misleading. But I also think that there are some matters fairly inconsequential to DD's goals, and who was teaching DADA was one of them. As long as the teacher had the qualifications and wasn't obviously a danger to the students, there were other matters of much greater importance. Up until Year 6 at least, when Snape got the position, perhaps in part to teach Harry the nonverbal spells. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:11:03 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:11:03 EDT Subject: Am I the only one... Message-ID: <1e.4a01c361.30172df7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134958 In a message dated 7/25/2005 3:33:55 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: Just because whoever wrote those annotations in the HBP book was a true genius at Potions (or had had a LOT of practice), doesn't mean that anyone else should be. Harry is a natural at flying, but he doesn't expect anyone else to be. So I say let's recognise Hermione's amazing abilities, and let's stop asking her to be even more of a genius than she already is. Del Julie says: It's interesting that HBP has finally laid to rest the argument over whether Snape actually earned the title "Potions Master" or simply used it to stoke his ego. I think we can now safely say Snape is a genius at Potions. Which makes it kind of odd that Snape wanted to DADA position so much (though I suppose he's just as good at DADA). And I do wonder why when Snape kept asking DD for the DADA position year after year, DD didn't just say "You're a Potions Master, Severus. That is your greatest talent and that's what you should be teaching." Or maybe he did. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From persephone_uk at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 06:00:31 2005 From: persephone_uk at hotmail.com (Emily Salter) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:00:31 +0100 Subject: Snape's grandfather, the Pure-Blood Prince (Was: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: <1122330783.3846.20083.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134959 Carol wrote: >Until HBP I always assumed (like many other readers) that the abusive >man was Snape's DE father, but clearly that can't be the case. But the >hooked nose shows that he's a close relative, one who can cow Snape's >witch mother and who must therefore be a wizard with some sort of >authority or control over her. It's impossible that Snape's pure-blood >grandfather would have approved of her daughter's marriage to a Muggle >(whom she must have loved--there's no other explanation.) The parallel >with Gaunt and Merope is clear, but with one significant difference. >Tom Riddle never witnessed his wizard grandfather abusing his witch >mother. Little Severus apparently did. >Possibly Grandpa Prince tracked Eileen down, taking her and little >Severus away from Tobias, maybe even murdering him, when Severus was >between three and five. That, at any rate, is my take on the memory, >which certainly seems to be a traumatic one involving a hook-nosed man >who is clearly a wizard. I think he's Severus Snape's grandfather, the >Pure-blood Prince. Emily writes: It's possible that the man was Grandfather Prince but the problem I have with the theory is that Snape, as a one time Death Eater, clearly has or had a hatred of Muggles. When he arrived at school at the age of 11 he is said to have known more curses than the seventh years and ingratiated himself with older Slytherin students like Lucius and Bellatrix, suggesting that this rejection of his Muggle background began at an early age. If he had seen his maternal grandfather terrorising his mother at such a young age, surely this experience would have turned him against wizards instead of Muggles? He would associate magic with this looming man who made his mother cower in fear while he looked on, helpless and crying. I would think he'd be afraid of wizards and magic and scared of going to Hogwarts instead of going out of his way to make himself a dark wizard before he'd hit his teens. As for why Eileen was allowing herself to be intimidated by a Muggle, I think this goes back to the psychology of the abused woman. Even the strongest of people can be cowed and terrorised, manipulated into believing that they 'deserve' the violence somehow and that they are dependent on the relationship or guilt-tripped into believing that their partner/spouse is dependent on them. It's the cycle of violence - outburst followed by apology, affection, pleas not to leave, that it will never happen again and an apparent end to the violence, followed by rising tension and finally another outburst. I don't think magical ability would have a bearing on this. No, I think Harry is right in this case - we were looking at the Snape family in that scene. Emily From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 06:19:51 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:19:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's not a Horcrux and location of one of them was Re: In Essense Divided In-Reply-To: <65859365.20050725154427@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, literature_Caro > > I think that they can as proven in PS for the fist time if you assume > that Harry is a Horcrux which I think he is. This is why I believe that Harry isn't a Horcrux. I think this is explained quite clearly in Chpt 23 "Horcruxes" - p 473 of the UK edition: [Dumbledore] "He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger that the prophesy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." Voldemort would not put part of his soul into the dead body of his victim which would just have been buried or cremated. He must have taken the receptical with him to Godrick's Hollow in which to place the portion of his soul that separated upon the death of "The one with the power...". When his body was destroyed the recepticle must have been left behind there. We know that Hagrid took Harry from the ruins and I don't think he would have bothered to grab a goblet or other innocuous looking item. So, unless there was a third party there who did know the significance, which is debatable as I don't think even Snape or other Death Eaters knew about them then, if now then one of the Horcruxes is probably still in the ruins of Godrick's Hollow. Karen From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Tue Jul 26 06:11:20 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn Berger-Barrera) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:11:20 -0400 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E5D408.1030903@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134961 This thread has been discussing Hermione's rejection of the HBP's textbook. I think it did display a lack of intellectual maturity. The girl is a teenager and was affected by jealousy - Harry's success when using the book irked her a great deal. In earlier books, she tended to follow rules, and her preference to accept the 'authority' of the officially assigned task is keeping in line with that. She became frustrated when her efforts were bested by Harry's because he used the improved instructions. I would have liked her to examine the Prince's notes. Figuring out why their innovations were more effective than the official text would be really instructive and even helpful for her NEWTs. I would have liked her to examine the notes and spells contained within to see what Harry was being exposed to. As demonstrated in his unfortunate confrontation of Draco, he is impulsive to say the least. She could better argue against his own use of the book, if she went through it, and could show specific examples of the dark magic that it held. Instead she distanced herself from the item and its contents. This was short-sighted, but Hermione, like all the students (and adults for that matter) is a work in progress. She is not yet an adult and I'd like to think that a slightly older Hermione would have used the book as supplemental reading for potions class, while analyzing why the 'shortcuts' worked. I bet she'd find the answers fascinating. Jocelyn From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:26:59 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:26:59 -0000 Subject: Why LV Wanted a Job In-Reply-To: <20.4956c040.30130734@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RoxyElliot at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/22/2005 3:20:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > lszydlowski at h... writes: > > Just couldn't believe Lord Thingy showed up at Hogwarts fot an > interview for the DADA job. No resume, no suit. Thinking along > Dumbledore's lines: why? what does he really want? We know he's looking > for souvieners of the Founders. Wouldn't the Sorting Hat be the > ultimate souvenir? > > MizStorge > > > > I was just discussing this with a friend today. My theory is that Voldemort > was feeling DD out. I think he wanted to know what DD knew about his > activities, and what if anything DD was planning to do to mount an opposition. > He's to smart to have thought for a second that he'd be able to teach at > Hogwarts. > > Roxanne > http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com > I think LV was trying to intimidate/sound out/enlist DD.....see if DD (like old Dippett)would give him a power base -- where he could be respectable -- teach at Hogwarts.....He basically gives DD an ultimatum..and DD..says, No way, get lost...... Very significant scene.... Susan McGee Northern California From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 06:29:54 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:29:54 -0000 Subject: destroying the horcruxes / Voldemort was Re: Dumbledore's hand / horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134963 >>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" >>drjuliehoward at y...> wrote: >> Unless, of course, Harry is the only one that CAN destroy >>horcruxes. > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" >wrote > I do like the idea you have about Harry being the only one who CAN > destroy them. Yes. For "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" read "The one with the power to destroy the Horcruxes". As no harm whatsoever came to Harry when he destroyed the diary, maybe he can destroy them without their being able to destroy him. In that case does this provide the 'get out clause' that so many want? That having disposed of the Horcruxes, Harry may not necessarily have to be the one who literally kills Voldemort himself. A well placed AK, or drop of poison in a drink from someone close (Snape anyone?) once the last Horcrux is dealt with may suffice? Or in the throws of a final battle scenario anyone fighting on the side of The Order who manages to get a 'direct hit' into him may just do the trick. Karen From mariabronte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 05:59:25 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:59:25 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134964 Sherry: > I agree that modern audiences see Shylock as ambiguous, but > Shakespearean audiences would not. Mari again: This is something I find fascinating. Shylock has indeed been historically interpreted in different ways; Shakespeare's contemporaries took the comic villain route, later the tragic hero interpretation was in vogue, and in modern times, as you say, it is the vogue to allow him to be ambiguous. Sherry: >He was intended to be the villain, but Shakespeare is a great > character author and transformed Shylock from a flat > stereotype to a complex character. In support of your point, > Snape is seen as a death eater, which is also considered evil. > Once again, instead of a stale character, we have rich, complex > characters. Mari again: One of the reasons I enjoy the HP series so much is because Rowling is similarly very good at creating complex characters that aren't stock figures or archetypes. Even where they are based on fantasy or other archetypes (hero, villain, sidekick) she extends and develops these archetypes further for the purposes of her story. I'm glad you found this interesting! :-) Mari. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Jul 26 06:24:37 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:24:37 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134965 Magda Grantwich wrote: > Remember how she went on about people getting too fond of Draco after > OOTP came out? How she couldn't understand why people liked him and > said it must be Tom Felton's fault? Could a woman who was so down on > Draco have given us the more-human (still a little prick but > nonetheless three-dimensional) Draco we saw in this book? Scared and > crying and quick to refute the suggestion that he invited a werewolf > into Hogwarts where his friends lived? As for your question with regard to Draco and could JKR right him as he was in HBP if she really meant her comments, my answer is "Yes, indeed." After all, in the three-part interview, conducted AFTER HBP was released, she not only continued in her excoriation of Draco but expressed her concern about those who favored him in the most detailed explanation yet of her views. Why would she do that? I suspect it's because her views of redemption and who is deserving of sympathy are rather different than those you often find in fandom. JKR is very, very unsentimental about her characters, with the probable exception of Harry himself. I'm guessing (and it is of course purely a guess) that she might say of HBP!Draco, "What is so redeeming about him? Why is he deserving of sympathy? Because he broke down and cried in a bathroom? That doesn't carry much weight considering he's guilty of two attempted murders. He was shocked about letting a werewolf into Hogwarts? He wasn't very shocked about letting in known killers. Draco isn't a hardened DE, it's true. That in and of itself doesn't make him redeemed, nor is it worthy of seeing him as anything other than what he is -- a vicious and amoral little brat who tried twice to commit murder and who allowed hardened killers into a school full of mostly defenseless children. It is true that his heart might not be in the killing. That doesn't let him off the hook for what he has done, nor mean that anyone should weep tears over the fact that actually showed some shreds of what is, after all, only basic human decency." And that would explain why she is pefectly able to write Draco as she does in HBP, and still state honestly in the strongest terms yet why she is worried about his popularity. JKR's morality doesn't appear to be the soft kind. In fact, it seems she can be hard as coffin nails when she feels it's appropriate. I don't know how this will play out with regard to Snape. But I wouldn't be surprised if the various "good" and "redeeming" things Snape has done don't hold nearly as much weight with JKR as they do with some members of the fandom. Lupinlore From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:46:29 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:46:29 -0000 Subject: MoM Dolores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Schumar1999" wrote: > Susan: The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of Dolores Umbridge.....! I cannot imagine why parents have not risen up and demanded that she be sent to Azkaban....or at least driven out of > the MoM... > > > Schumar: HALLELUJAH!! My friends and I were just talking about this tonight, and I was looking through the posts to figure out if I was going to write something myself or just do replies, and you beat me to it. I am so glad that other people are thinking about this, too. > > Unfortunately, we see a lot of people in government (not just in MoM) that should be prison... So I wonder if keeping her in the Ministry was a way to show that the ministry has its corruptions and cover-ups, too. Perhaps she has too much information on other ministry members and their cover-ups to be trusted to go on trial for fear of what she might reveal. We also don't know in what capacity she is serving at the ministry. Maybe she was severely demoted? > You're right..it could be that this is one of JKR's analogies to our - - the Muggle world -- in which many members of government get away with crimes that would cause ordinary citizens to go to prison... Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:48:10 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:48:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Portrait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboyminn: > Actually, Dumbledore's protrait was mentioned today, although I'm not > sure who mentioned it. None the less, I think you are right, the > appearance of Dumbledore's protrait is a sure sign that he is dead. > > It's true Harry can talk to Dumbledore's portrait and certainly he can > gain some insight and information, but let's remember that the > portraits are not a duplicate of the original person, they are a > representation, much, as I have always claimed, like an actor playing > a role. The portraits do have a good handle on the original character > and may even carry some of the original knowledge and information of > the original character, but when probed at depth, they will fall far > short of duplicating the original. They will certainly have the > personality of the original, but they will lack the intellectual and > emotional depth. Geoff: There has been discussion on portraits in the past as to what they can discuss and understand etc. One such discussion I can point to is a thread entitles "Empty portrait" starting at message 95040 which might be of interest in the present context. From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jul 26 06:56:12 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:56:12 -0000 Subject: MoM Dolores' crimes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134968 And....I forgot to mention Umbrage's other crimes --- the attack on Hagrid, and the attack on Minerva McGonagall! Seems like there are a bunch of people at the MoM who are into "obeying orders" no matter how foul the orders...Dawlish, for example... Perhaps HPforGrownups needs to find a door into the Potterverse, take over the MoM and sack the bureaucrats/evil power seekers, etc...let's send Delores to care for wounded centaurs, for example... FREE STAN SHUNPIKE! Susan McGee From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Tue Jul 26 07:01:03 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:01:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's grandfather, the Pure-Blood Prince (Was: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134969 > Emily writes: > > As for why Eileen was allowing herself to be intimidated by a Muggle, I > think this goes back to the psychology of the abused woman. Even the > strongest of people can be cowed and terrorised, manipulated into believing > that they 'deserve' the violence somehow and that they are dependent on the > relationship or guilt-tripped into believing that their partner/spouse is > dependent on them. I'm sure I'm not really comming up with anything new here, but maybe he wasn't abusing her. He might just have found out something concerning his son (or wife) that he didn't like. He might not have known about their powers, and it was a chock for him to find out. Or maybe his son used magic in a way that scared him. So, the father was yelling, his words hurt Eileen (and Severus too of course). If this made him leave his family, it makes sence that(if?) Snape has a problem with muggles. To him they represent people who don't approve of him and even worse, let him down. Marika From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 07:02:29 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:02:29 -0000 Subject: Snape culpable - and the Three-Part Interview?JKR 's consistent answers abou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134970 > Magda: > > > I would respectfully suggest that we stop regarding JKR's > interviews > > as canon; they're marketing and she's just not going to tell us > > anything. We'll have to wait a couple of years, that's all. > > > > > Alla: > > So far everything she said about Snape, ( in terms of his character > of course, not in terms of giving out clues about the plot) of > course, turned out to be true, no? > > She was talking about him as deeply horrible person and so far he > looks like it ( to me of course). > > I think that interviews are pretty canonical, of course unless as > she said she either misspokes or changes her mind about some plot > details. > > Sure interviews are marketing, but she said that she never lied in > her interviews or even consciously misleaded us. I am inclined to > believe her personally. > Valky: Hi Ladies, I'd like to add to the thoughts here, because this particular topic has been on my mind recently. The way I have chosen to see it is much as this: After getting my fingers burned on some interview canon myself recently, (Not the H/Hr SHIP either, other things altogether) I was admittedly a fragment tense for a while with the whole non-book canon thing. Stopping only just short of swearing off HP musing altogether at a stage, in my frustration with finding I felt hoodwinked and dashed by interview/non-book canon on one too many occasions, I considered the position of Jo, on giving away plots, in some depth. Although I agree with Alla, that it's fair to say Jo isn't out to deliberately mislead us, I have to admit we chose to play this little game among oursleves and Jo and we are all intelligent educated adults. To wit, we are smart and informed so why should Jo go easy on us. We outnumber her in droves, while she has the all important answers so I'd say the match is pretty well even. So while it is fair to say that interview statements aren't deliberate attempts to mislead us, I also agree with Magda, we should give them some berth, I think, because Jo is well within her right to allow us to misdirect ourselves a bit when we are close to getting the jump on her plot. Valky From djklaugh at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 06:56:09 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:56:09 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134971 Please excuse me if someone else has postulated these ideas before.. I have not had time to read each and every posting yet... some 2000+ since 7/19... So I apologize in advance if this is not a new idea. JKR has been showing us predominantly one type of magic in the HP books... She has shown us magic that is inherent in the individual. She postulates a school where wizards and witches go to learn how to use these inate talents to better effect. But she has also shown us that even young children who have the inate ability for magic can do magic... Harry growing his hair back over night after Aunt Petunia "scalps" him, Harry letting the boa constrictor lose from its cage, Ginny, Ron, Seamus and others flying on broomsticks long before they come to Hogwarts, the toddler wizard at the World Cup who has "borrowed" Daddy's wand and is making a slug grow bigger. This is inate magical ability + a wish or want. At Hogwarts young wizards and witches - armed with their first wand - learn to focus their powers and direct it. They learn the words and phrases for specific spells, charms, hexes, etc. This is inate power + activating words + focused intention directed toward the goal or result through the wand and it's magical core. The main focus of their education is on positive, good uses of magic .... though there are those, even in school, who think nothing of using their education to hurt or humiliate others. While the Dark Arts are not specifically taught... that is students are not instructed in how to do Dark Magic, they are, under the DADA, taught about many aspects of the Dark Arts including Unforgivable Curses. They are not shielded from the Dark Arts but are taught how to recognize it and defend against it. After they reach 6th year students may go into the Restricted Section of the library without special permission, they can look up horrible potions, spells, hexes, curses. And even before 6th year, with the permission of a teacher, they can use these books. However in HBP we come across a magic that is banned at Hogwarts! The creation of a Horcrux. Slughorn goes against the dictates of the school by telling Tom Riddle about them ... and is ashamed, and perhaps frightened, later for his part in furthering the development of Lord Voldemort so that he modifies his memory of this revelation. Why is this particular spell banned from Hogwarts? I think that this particular spell comes under a separate kind of magic... ritual magic. We have seen this type of magic only once before in the saga of Harry Potter - When Harry is transported to the cemetary by the Triwizard Cup turned Porta-key. Lord Voldemort and Wormtail have set the stage for the ritual that follows... they have the huge stone cauldron of water (or some other potion), they have all the ingredients needed, Wormtail uses a silver knife to cut off his hand and to take blood from Harry. This all takes place in a cemetary - sacred ground... and apparently though not specifically stated this is done at the dark of the moon (canon only notes starlit skies and makes no mention of any moon light)- a time of dark power. And there are not single spell words... there is a whole litany. This kind of magic is more like creating a potion where specific steps must be followed, specific ingredients must be used, and specific actions must be taken. And this is magic of the blackest kind... blood magic. I would imagine that one would not find this particular spell in the library at Hogwarts either. If indeed this type of ritual magic is necessary for the creation of a horcrux, then one can not be created accidentally or even incidentally. To create a horcrux one would need all of the elements required to complete the spell to be assembled in one place, one would need the time, the right circumstances, the right equipment in order to complete the ritual and create the horcrux-- and the focused intention to not only create a horcrux but firstly to commit deliberate, premeditated murder and spill blood in the process. I think further that LV had created all 6 of his horcruxes before he went to kill Harry Potter... the bit of the prophecy that he knew was that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches, born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies" .... I think from LV's POV he would see this as the last obstacle to his immortality (though IMO LV was already overconfident that his horcruxes would save him from any attempts to vanquish him and this made him careless and forgetful of the old powers, the old magic that he so dispised and mistrusted - the power of love) .... if this one person is the only one who has the power to vanquish him, and if LV kills him and prevents the fulfillment of the prophecy as he understands it, and his soul is segmented and hidden, then there would be no way that he could die... again speculating on LV's thought processes... very scary! The power that he left with Harry when the AK back fired I think is more along the lines of transferring a skill - parseltongue and perhaps some of LV's ability as a legilimens. Rather like being splattered with the blowback from any other type of explosion.... some times scrapnel becomes so embedded that it is very hard to remove. Deb From oiboyz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 07:33:39 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (Florence) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:33:39 -0000 Subject: DD and Lily's Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134972 "Bob Alberti" wrote: > DD deliberately chose to die to protect his students. > > Think about it. What kind of whammy is waiting for the next person to > try AK on Draco? > > Did DD's death confer the kind of protection on Draco that Lily > conferred on Harry? > > Did it extend to Harry? > > Did it extend to all the Hogwarts students? > > Did it extend to the castle itself? Oiboyz: Good grief, I hadn't thought of that either! But look at who DD was most directly protecting when he died: Harry (because he used a precious split second to freeze him and so was disarmed by Malfoy), and Snape (because he died rather than let the Unbreakable Vow kill Snape). Will those two be unable to kill each other when next they meet? That would be most interesting... I'm surprised more people haven't guessed at a protective charm, given how often we're beaten over the head with Lily's sacrifice! -oiboyz From kjones at telus.net Tue Jul 26 07:44:55 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:44:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Snape's grandfather, the Pure-Blood Prince (Was: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E5E9F7.9030808@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 134973 Emily Salter wrote: > Emily writes: > > It's possible that the man was Grandfather Prince but the problem I have > with the theory is that Snape, as a one time Death Eater, clearly has or > had > a hatred of Muggles. When he arrived at school at the age of 11 he is said > to have known more curses than the seventh years and ingratiated himself > with older Slytherin students like Lucius and Bellatrix, suggesting that > this rejection of his Muggle background began at an early age. If he had > seen his maternal grandfather terrorising his mother at such a young age, > surely this experience would have turned him against wizards instead of > Muggles? He would associate magic with this looming man who made his mother > cower in fear while he looked on, helpless and crying. I would think he'd > be afraid of wizards and magic and scared of going to Hogwarts instead of > going out of his way to make himself a dark wizard before he'd hit his > teens. > Emily Kathy writes: In this particular case, however, I am convinced that young Snape knew that his mother was being abused for a) marrying a Muggle and b) producing a half-blood child. I am sure that Snape was also derided for being a half-blood by his pure-blood relatives. Probably the only way to win approval from his family members was to learn as much as possible to impress them, to be accepted as one of their own, and undoubtedly treated his own mother poorly as a result. Snape learned to gain favour at a young age and probably also felt that if he was the one with the power over others, he was safe. This up-bringing was probably the over-riding factor in pushing him into the Deatheaters. The bullying of the Marauders in school just served to reinforce the need for power and authority, and respect. He may have increased his learning of spells and hexes before attending Hogwarts because he was afraid. KJ From rossella111 at yahoo.it Tue Jul 26 07:25:29 2005 From: rossella111 at yahoo.it (rossella111) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:25:29 -0000 Subject: Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134974 Chancie wrote: > Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but > I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman > from the Quibbler article in OOP? Allie wrote: > OMG, what a funny idea!! Well, they are brothers, maybe they look > alike and that's why Luna thought it was Sirius. (Although, one > would think that Sirius would recognize his own brother.) If Sirius had recognized his own brother reading the Quibbler article, he would have immediately shared the discovery to Dumbledore, who revealed the secret, isn'it? Ross From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 08:58:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:58:01 -0000 Subject: Parallels between Snape and Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134975 "Mari" wrote: > > To make this summary as short as possible, my main argument > is that Snape and Shylock function in a *very similar way* in > narrative terms in their respective stories. They serve a similar > function for the writer, and inspire similar kinds of arguments > and debates. > > > Readers respond to Shylock in the same way as readers > respond to Snape; both characters are unsettling and > ambiguous. > There is nothing ambiguous about Shylock. He's bent on revenge and wants ? quite literally ? to cut out Antonio's heart. I'd say it's as straightforward and unequivoqual as it possibly gets. It is not Shylock who "unsettling and ambiguous" it is the moral message of the play that makes one extremely uneasy (unless one is a hardened racist, of course). For three and a half acts we can't help but empathize with Shylock's plight and then in the end of the fourth the old prejudice is once again reasserted and we are invited to laugh at his final humiliation. You think it's "one of the best Shakespearian's comedies"? I find it singularly unfunny. Then the whole matter is dismissed and we are invited to this lovers' paradise ? Belmont to celebrate with the three happy couples and one gloomy Antonio. Could you honestly wish Jessica joy? Every time I reread the play I find myself hoping that Lorenzo would dump her and make away with the money and jewels she'd stolen from her father. Snape on the contrary IS ambiguous. We don't know what he is really up to, where his loyalties lie, why he acts as he does, why DD trusts him and what it is he trusts him with. He's an enigma wrapped in a mystery (or was it the other way round?). In any case he's not at all like Shylock in this respect. a_svirn From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 26 09:36:02 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:36:02 -0400 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I the only one...) Message-ID: <005601c591c5$708bc480$35c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134976 Lasp1x said: > Secondly, I wanted to bring up the question of the person who came > into magic late in life. I have mentioned my opinion of this at > Fiction Alley but am curious enough about it to also bring it up > here. HP fans are known for over analyzing, I do it myself all the > time. But could the person who comes into magic late in life be as > simple as being Merope? We are told by Dumbledore that she couldn't > do magic until she left the Gaunt house and her father also calls her > a squib. azriona said: "I'd forgotten all about that statement of hers. Yeah, I totally agree that the person is Merope. I wonder *why* she couldn't do magic until she left the house. Was it because she wasn't very good at it to begin with, or perhaps her family was so overbearing that she was afraid to try? And if she never did magic, does that mean she didn't attend Hogwarts? (Although I don't imagine for a second the rest of the family did, either.)" Do you really think 18 is *late in life*? DD said something along the lines of Merope's magic being not what it should be while she was tormented and tortured by her father and brother. It didn't show in the best light. Something along those lines. (Sorry, I hate not being able to quote but my book isn't handy.) I think she was a witch all along, she was just so cowed and frightened by her father and her brother, everything she did went wrong. Marvolo was calling her a Squib as even more torment. ********************** shagufta said: "And as far as HBP is concerned, Hermione doesnt get anything wrong, her potions are textbook perfect, and thats really the best a student aims for. The whole problem, here, in Slughorns potions class, is that somebody is getting more credit than Hermione. She's not 'the best' anymore, whether her potion is textbook perfect or not. Harry is getting all the glory when his is as well. CathyD DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 26 09:38:07 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:38:07 -0400 Subject: Would it be too obvious for Snape to be on EITHER side? Message-ID: <005a01c591c5$bb398120$35c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 134977 Lupinlore said: "What would a "third option" look like? I think the problem with BOTH sides above is that they relegate all Severus' effective choices of right vs. easy to the backstory as opposed to the saga itself, which I think would be an uninteresting strategy on JKR's part." Sorry I had to snip so much but I don't really know what to reply to. I had believed, wholeheartedly, for quite some time, that Snape is a double agent acting for his own interests. He has both Dumbledore and LV fooled (occlumency) and completely fooled. He doesn't have to fool McGonagall, or Flitwick or Hagrid or anyone else. Dumbledore has done that for him. DD trusts Snape and everyone else trusts DD. As Hermione said "if we can't trust Dumbledore who can we trust?" Snape has LV fooled in the same way. It doesn't matter what Bellatrix thinks, what Lucius thinks or what any other DE thinks. LV trusts Snape and that is enough. The outcome, of course, is that no matter what side falls, Snape already has his story set. If LV's side prevails, he's been LV's man all along so will have a place of honour. He's been spying on DD for years and has helped LV win the war. If the good side comes through and overpowers the Dark, Snape's got DD's word that he was trustworthy. What did McGonagall say "I've always thought Dumbledore had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape. He wouldn't hear a word against him." McGonagall will believe it again, that Snape had been working as a spy for DD, and continued to work for DD even after his death, to bring down the Dark Lord. Now, keep in mind I said "I had believed" and that's as far as I'm willing to commit right now. CathyD DuffyPoo "Abstinence." "Precisely." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 10:05:41 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:05:41 -0000 Subject: MoM Delores In-Reply-To: <20050726055301.52487.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Silent Screamer wrote: > Susan McGee says > > > The REAL SCANDAL, however, is the retention of > > Delores Umbridge.....! I > > cannot imagine why parents have not risen up and > > demanded that she be sent to > > Azkaban....or at least driven out of the MoM... > > **snip*** > Silence says > > The thing I wonder is, DOES the general public of the > WW know about these things? **snip** > ~Silence Doddie here: I guessing that Fudge stepped down readily on the premise that much of the info. would not be released to the public. Scringemour is not surprised when Harry shows him the scar on the back of his hand...so apparently he knows about it--and how it came about. Yet we still see D.Umbridge at DD's funeral..*heavy sigh* so apparently she's still at the MOM. There are lessons to garner from this: 1. Parents tend to pooh-pooh complaints from their children from a particular teacher.. 2. D.Umbridge still didn't learn any sort of lesson during the quality time she spent with the centaurs.(she probably made up whatever lies she could and MOM believed her...hence DD wants no dealings with the MOM...and nor does Harry) 3. with politicians it's career first--folks they represent second. (hence poor stan shunpike--and the back of Harry's hand MOM still victimizes the innocent). More than lying, stealing, cheating....one must examine one's principles, morals, values, honesty...and above all--INTEGRITY(the putting of principles, morals, values, honesty etc. together)...one must walk the walk they talk. In my opinion the characters who lack integrity are the ones most discussed and disputed.... I could write another volume on this...but it's late and I need some sleep.. Doddie (who really thinks snape can talk the talk---but his walk is completely off..) From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 17:40:51 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:40:51 +0200 Subject: The loop hole - Snape in Dumbeldore's pensive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94498024.20050725194051@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134980 I have wondered why DD gave Harry such a lame answer when being asked for the reason why DD believes that Snape is loyal in HBP. Now I came up to something in GOF that makes me believe that DD told Harry what Voldemort wanted Snape to tell DD to convince him: In the chapter where Harry breaks into DD pensive in GOF (I think in English it is called "The Pensive") and sees Karkaroff's trial Snape is denounced being a Death Eater. There DD says that Snape was indeed one but started working as a spy before (!) Voldemort fell. But DD tells Harry in HBP that Snape felt remorse that the Potters died and joined him which was after (!) Voldemort fell. This leaves two choices: 1. DD let Snape work for him before he was sure of his loyalty, which I think far too much unlike DD, or 2. DD did not tell Harry the plain truth because Harry is far to weak at Occlumency to keep Snape's true identity hidden, or 3. DD cannot tell Harry the true story for this is secured by a secret keeper (other than DD). So this could be seen as a real hint that Snape is not evil. Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Tue Jul 26 08:43:22 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:43:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? In-Reply-To: <410-22005722611337963@earthlink.net> References: <410-22005722611337963@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <747787738.20050726104322@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 134981 Chancie: > Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but > I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman > from the Quibbler article in OOP? DD said that he > could hide Draco, what if he hid Regulus when > he tried to back out of being a DE? Not that > I really think this is plausible, and I doubt anyone > besides Luna Lovegood would think it was remotely > possible, but I thought I'd post it anyway. That's what came to me,too some time ago. But I'd rather think that Regulus made this name up when he and Sirius were still teenagers and living at home. Stubby Boardman has the same initials as Sirius Black so this could be some kind of mockery by Regulus naming his brother like this and therefore calling him the director's (i. e. Dumbledore's) stubborn man for he does not give a thing on the purity of blood. Then later Regulus himself discovered what Voldemort was up to and then stole the Horcrux, brought it home and went underground by feigning death. Then he could have tried to reveal himself by using this mockery for himself and pretending to be Sirius so that he will hopefully read this article. Only his brother would recognize it. My only problem with this thought is that Regulus did not appear in HBP. Maybe because he was to appear in book 7 or maybe because I was wrong. Caro From samwisep at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 09:25:18 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:25:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134982 HI Potterphiles! My question is: Why did Ron ask Lavender out? It seems incomprehensible to me that after five years of liking (loving) Hermione, he decides to date Lavender! I was really shocked! Why do you think he did it? Anger over Hemione kissing Krum two years ago? Ginny's taunts about his inexperiance? If he wanted experiance, why not ask Hermione out? I just don't understand what was up with him. Also, re-reading HBP, I think the comment Ginny made to Hermione ("Oh don't act like you understand Quidditch," snapped Ginny 'you'll only embarrass yourself.") This is one of the most hateful, spiteful lines in the entire books. I never liked Ginny, not one iota, but now she has fallen into the "if voldemort gets her category, I don't care." Snapeophile From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 10:36:26 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:36:26 -0000 Subject: How do the Horcruxes work? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134983 First - appologies if this has already been asked and attempted answered. In that case I'd be happy to be directed to where to find them. Voldemort creates his 6 Horcruxes and keeps the 1/7 part of his soul. Voldemort is hit by the backfiring AK/spell/whatever and loses his body but keeps that 1/7 soul, right? Voldemort wants immortality. But what happens if he's AK'd and loses that part of his soul which is presently inside him? He has 6/7 soulparts hidden in Horcruxes - but how to get hold of one of these soulparts and get it inside him? What to do when all 7 soulparts have been used up? Is that the end of Voldemort? If so - he's not immortal - he just has 7 lives - 7 and no more. Or did I get the idea about Horcruxes all wrong? Inge From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 10:59:30 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:59:30 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlnbtr" wrote: > Milz wrote: > Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very > smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, > create... She can't think outside the box. > > Juli Milz responds: Exactly and that's what limits her in terms of intelligence and sets her in a different league than HBP and Fred and George. Fred and George are able to invent new jinxes or devise things by practical application of their magical knowledge. Even Hermione has to admit in HBP that some of the jokes and jinxes are use a very advanced magic. Yes, she can recognize it's advanced magic, but that's about all. Which leads to . Jocelyn says: I would have liked her to examine the Prince's notes. Figuring out why their innovations were more effective than the official text would be really instructive and even helpful for her NEWTs. I would have liked her to examine the notes and spells contained within to see what Harry was being exposed to . Milz responds: Hermione's examination of the book was merely a spell. However, it would have shown a more `answer seeking' side of her if she had indeed tried to figure out why HBP notations worked. But we don't get that from her. Instead we get the "follow the rules, if it's not in the official version, the information isn't valid" attitude----it's that kind of attitude that stifles creativity and innovation. Again, the "greats" were the ones who thought outside of the constraints of the mainstream. Harry Potter will get his own Wizard card for the one who defeated Voldemort. AndI think Fred and George are deserving of a Wizard card too. Michal says: just in hermione's defense, i think it's important to remember that she's not *only* book smart. in OotP, she very accurately interpreted umbridge's comments at the start of term feast, telling harry and ron that the ministry was interfering at hogwarts. we should also keep in mind that she was able to separate her combined poison in slughorn's class to try and come up with the antidote. that, to me, seems like an advanced application of concepts learned, rather than simple regurgitation of facts read in a book. Milz responds: I'll give her the ability to read some people (I'm reserving her ability because the jury's still out on Snape?Rowling has given herself enough leeway to make an convincing argument for either outcome). But let's look at the antidote. Way back in PS/SS, Rowling teaches us the use of a bezoar. Does Hermione retain that information? No. A person who "really knows their stuff" will be able to recall small details like that and apply that knowledge. Michal: as for the fact that she seemed to struggle a bit in the advanced potions class, i can speak to that. i always had a really easy time with math at the simple levels. i never had to work all that hard at it, so that by the time i got to the AP level in my last two years of high school, it was suddenly like, "what? this isn't supposed to be hard!" i understand her frustration at a new-found difficulty with a subject that used to come easy to her. Milz responds: And I've been in that same boat too. And it's shown to me that my aptitude in that subject isn't as great as I believed it to be. It's a blow to one's ego, naturally. But it's a reality check. On the other hand, I've continued to do well in other subjects?in fact to the point where the material makes more sense and to the point where I can figure something out because I'm familiar with the nature of its components. Again, no one is saying Hermione is a dumb as a rock. But she's not in the same league as the HBP and the Weasley twins and this last book has shown that. Will Hermione turn around in the next book:? Well, to paraphase Ginny's comment about growning up with Fred and George, when you read the Harry Potter books you realize that anything is possible. From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Tue Jul 26 10:59:41 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:59:41 -0000 Subject: Two questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134986 I have a few questions about HBP: 1)Why does everyone in Book6 behave in such a blaise manner whenever Harry tells him or her about his doubts regarding Malfoy? Once or twice is ok but why do they persist in disbelieving Harry for so long? 2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or kill DD? bye Adi: Ps: I had so many questions before but I forgot all of them. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 11:02:38 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:02:38 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134987 Milz wrote: "It takes REAL intelligence to be able to think outside of the box with the knowledge base and tools available." Del replies: Such a definition ends up making 98% of people, whether in RL or in the Potterverse, idiots. That's pointless. What you are describing is genius, not just intelligence. Milz wrote: "However, Fred and George don't get respect because their magical endeavors are jokes and other seemingly frivolous things, but their creations involve a complex magicks. Moreover their lack of academic excellence tarnishes their reputation amongst people who can't fathom that grade point average does not necessarily indicate intelligence. " Del replies: Like Hermione, you mean? Sorry, but canon contradicts that. In HBP, in "Draco's detour", Hermione qualifies the "Patented Daydream Charms" as "extraordinary magic". She was already impressed by the Twins' tricks in OoP, though I'm too lazy to look for the reference. So Hermione knows full well that the Twins are extraordinary wizards, and she's fully aware that the only reason they never had brilliant grades is because they never cared. Milz wrote: "Issac Newton, Godfried Lymans, Linus Pauling, Blaise Pascal, Bernoulli, etc. were all teenagers or young adults who contributed greatly to science and mathematics---and they did that not by reciting verbatim, but through innovative and creative application of that knowledge." Del replies: Yes, but FIRST they had to LEARN that knowledge! Can't you see that Hermione is only in the *learning phase* for now? She is learning everything she can, because this time in her life is the perfect time to do that. She is at school, she's got a library available, she's got professors to ask questions to, and all this extra studying can even help in her primary occupation: school work. She is at Hogwarts to STUDY, NOT to invent. But once she's learned all she can, I really see no sign that she won't be able to apply all that knowledge creatively in whatever field she chooses to work in. Milz wrote: "As for falling apart without instructions: yes she does. HBP showed that Hermione is a limited talent because she worships the god of knowledge at the altar of textbooks. Classic case: polyjuice potion brewing---again, Hermione followed instructions in a book. But if you really want to test Hermione's real intelligence vs. booksmarts, you'd have to ask, would Hermione had been able to devise a polyjuice potion, de novo? In other words, if polyjuice potion never existed, would Hermione been able to create a polyjuice potion? My guess is no, because as she's demonstrated in the past books, Hermione depends too heavily on what the textbook and not on creatively applying that information." Del replies: This is unfair, ridiculous, and contrary to canon. Unfair and ridiculous, because you are asking a 12-year-old Muggle-born witch to create something that wizards several years older than she is can't even produce correctly even with the instructions. In short, you are asking that Hermione invents relativity when she hasn't even covered the bases of calculus. And contrary to canon because we HAVE seen Hermione apply her knowledge creatively. She created a Jinx that nobody has been able to break! So OBVIOUSLY this Jinx is NOT in a book, or all those who have tried to help Marrietta would have found it. Milz wrote: "The greats of science, mathematic, medicine, literature, music, cooking, etc. were great because they "broke" the rules of convention and opened up new avenues of possibility and thought.. In doing so they opened up a new world of possibilities." Del replies: Yes, but FIRST they had to LEARN those rules of convention. Which is what Hermione is doing. Milz wrote: "Again, I'm not saying that Hermione isn't bright and isn't a good student, but don't inflate her abilities to something more than it really is." Del replies: I think you're the one who is deflating her abilities to much less than they really are. Hermione is much more than a bookworm: she is a creative witch, who is learning the principles of magic. Reducing her to a mindless robot is not at all conform to canon IMO. Milz wrote: "Also, I've seen what happens to "talented and gifted kids". Some of them become even more talented and gifted--these are the kids who are the innovators and who realize that book knowledge isn't all the knowledge in the world. These are the kids who constantly are searching for answers and pushing the limits to find those answers because they know the books don't contain everything." Del replies: And that's Hermione all right. Let me give you two examples. PS/SS: Hermione SAYS that (paraphrase) books and cleverness are less important than what Harry's got. OoP: when Umbridge refuses to teach them proper DADA, Hermione turns to *Harry*, NOT to books! Hermione could have taught herself all the jinxes and charms necessary to ace her DADA OWL. But that's not what she wanted! What she wanted was Harry's EXPERTISE, she wanted him to teach them how to APPLY DADA in real life. Just because Hermione does soak in everything that books can give her does NOT mean she thinks they are the ultimate source of knowledge. And she most definitely does NOT worship books: she said in the very first book that there are things much more important than books! Milz wrote: "So Hermione's "dumbing down" in this book came as no surprize to me." Del replies: Another huge misconception IMO. Hermione is in no way "dumbing down". She is still the exceptionally bright student that she always was. The only thing that happened is that Harry bested her in PRACTICAL Potions because he had a better recipe BOOK. But she knows the principles involved far better than he does, and if anyone could imagine a complicated and totally new Potions, it would be Hermione all right. Milz wrote: "Her intellectual growth is stagnating because she's taken the role of a walking encyclopedia as opposed to the role of a fountain of ideas, discovery and innovation. And Rowling uses her well as that sort of plot device--a walking encyclopedia who conveniently offers some bit of information in a book that Ron nor Harry has bothered to read." Del replies: That's silly and not supported by canon. Yes one of Hermione's roles is to be a walking encyclopedia, but that's far from being her only role! Let me list a few things that Hermione does and which don't come from books: - heart counselor (with Cho) - political advisor (helping the boys understand the interference of the Ministry at Hogwarts in OoP) - agent (organising the interview with Rita AND its publication by the Quibbler) - personal coach (encouraging Harry to lead the DA, helping him in his various problems) And so on. All those things require much more than book smarts. And some of them show a GREAT DEAL of creativity! Juli gave this ENCARTA definition of intelligence: "Intelligence, term usually referring to a general mental capability to reason, solve problems, think abstractly, learn and understand new material, and profit from past experience. Intelligence can be measured by many different kinds of tasks. Likewise, this ability is expressed in many aspects of a person's life. Intelligence draws on a variety of mental processes, including memory, learning, perception, decision-making, thinking, and reasoning." Del replies: - reason: Hermione does that a lot - solve problems: Harry and Ron are lucky that she's here to do it so often! - think abstractly: she does that too - learn and understand new principles: she's a goddess at that - profit from past experience: she does that too. So there is no doubt to me that Hermione is extremely intelligent. Likewise, she possesses every single one of the mental processes listed at the end of the definition, and in large quantities too. Juli wrote: "Hermione gets all her answers from books, she trusts books more than anything," Del replies: I'll repeat: this is not true. For example, when she wanted to learn practical DADA in OoP, she turned to Harry, not to books. Juli wrote: "(Einstein) managed to see beyond other people, he invented stuff, he made theories, he went beyond all of us. Now, do I think Hermione could do that? Nope. She's book-smart, she doesn't experiment, she doesn't invent." Del replies: Canon contradicts you. Hermione invented a Jinx that nobody has managed to break. Do you have any canon to support your opinion that Hermione couldn't invent new theories? And by the way, Einstein wasn't inventing anything earth-shattering at the age of 16 or 17, so if you want to compare Hermione to Einstein, you'll have to wait until she leaves school and starts actually working on producing new stuff. Juli wrote: "Intelligence has a new definition (don't have the quote, sorry), and it is the capability to relate to others, to form relationships and sustain them. Their ability to communicate. Hermione clearly doesn't have it (remember in PS she had no friends?). Harry has it, Fred and George have it, Ron also, Ginny a lot..." Del replies: That's emotional intelligence. And it is totally unfair to judge Hermione only by what she was in PS/SS. -relate to others: she brilliantly demonstrated in OoP that she could relate to both Harry and Cho. - form relationships and sustain them: are you saying that it is all thanks to Harry and Ron if her friendship with them is still alive and well? And what about Viktor? And what about Ginny? Sure Hermione does not have many friends, but she doesn't seem to want more friends. And anyway, Harry doesn't have many friends either: remember that when he wasn't talking to Ron in GoF, he was stuck with Hermione even though he didn't overly enjoy it, simply because he had no other friends? And Ron had to go with his older brothers because he had no other friends either. So I'd say Harry and Ron have no more emotional intelligence than Hermione, and maybe even less. - communicate: if anyone in the Trio doesn't know how to communicate, it's Harry, not Hermione. Hermione is not overly brilliant at it, but at least she does discuss things over, while Harry tends to keep everything to himself. And bickering, by the way, IS a way to communicate... So, I'm still not convinced. Juli wrote: "Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, create... She can't think outside the box." Del replies: Canon support for that? And finally, concerning the big question (why didn't Hermione examine the HBP book?), I can think of 3 reasons for now. 1. The plot device. If the handwriting is indeed Snape's, the risk is too great that Hermione would have recognised it. So in order to ensure that Hermione would not look too closely at the book, JKR cleverly ensured that this book would antagonise her right away, by hitting where it hurts most: her position as best student of the year. By having Harry, of all people (well, Ron would have been even worse :-), beat her at making a Potion, JKR made sure that Hermione would take an immediate dislike at the book, and that from then on she would remain highly prejudiced against it. The ridiculous nickname ("the Half-Blood Prince"), and the ambiguous jinxes didn't help either. 2. Another possibility is that the HBP triggered Hermione's competitiveness, maybe even only on a subconscious level. It is possible that the more Harry bested her by using the HBP book, the more determined she became to best the HBP using the "orthodox" method and her brains. 3. And finally, speaking as a reasonably good student who happened to be around a couple of "genius" students, I wonder if Hermione didn't discard the HBP book simply because it wouldn't do *her* any good. Contrarily to what many think, I don't think that Hermione is only interested in the results. I am strongly of the opinion that Hermione is at least as interested in the *principles* as in the results. She wants to *understand* how things work. Doing the Potions according to the school book helps her do that. It's just like when I would go through the textbook long and complicated method of resolving a Maths or Physics problem, so that I would understand the different steps involved. But my genius friends, who already understood all that, and who could manipulate those concepts at will, would invent new, improved, much more neat and elegant and impressive solutions. I would marvel at them, but those new solutions were of no value *to me*, because they implied a previous knowledge of the principles involved that I didn't have yet, that I was working on acquiring. So it is possible that Hermione stuck to the school book because she wanted to understand the *principles* much more than anything else. After all, let's be honest: Harry got the best results, but he didn't learn much as far as Potion-making goes. But Hermione did. Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 11:15:45 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:15:45 -0000 Subject: The Weasley Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134988 Steve wrote: Goblet of Fire - Mrs. Weasley glanced at the grandfather clock in the corner. Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. It had nine golden hands, and each of them was engraved with one of the Weasley family's names. There were no numerals around the face, but descriptions of where each family member might be. "Home," "school," and "work" were there, but there was also "traveling," "lost," "hospital," "prison," and, in the position where the number twelve would be on a normal clock, "mortal peril." Eight of the hands were currently pointing to the "home" position, but Mr. Weasley's, which was the longest, was still pointing to "work." Mrs. Weasley sighed. vmonte responds: JKR seems to really like time-pieces, doesn't she? What is all the obsession with time? The Weasley's and Dumbledore are always associated with time, although they are not the only time references in the books. Here is the newest mention: HBP, U.S. edition, page 390 "Seriously good haul this year!" he (Ron) announced, holding up a heavy gold watch with odd symbols around the edge and tiny moving stars instead of hands." (This sounds like Dumbledore's watch, except for the fact that DD's had planets that moved around the edge.) Ron then makes this comment to Harry: "See what Mum and Dad got me! Blimey, I think I'll come of age next year too..." Does this gift have symbolic meaning? Ron will be able to join the Order next year, like his other brothers. Do the references to "time" have anything to do with the Order? So, what is it with "time" and the Weasleys? Just how old is the Order anyway? Is the Order a family side business? Are the Weasley's and Dumbledore related? via the Gryffindor-line? Was there an Order during Grindelwald's time? Here are more time references from mugglenet.com: "We don't know whether JKR is hinting at something with all these wristwatch references, or whether she just likes watches! (And she has a wrist watch on her website desktop!) Big thanks to RoCkYz21 for compiling most of this list! Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Professor McGonagall pulled out a lace handkerchief and dabbed at her eyes beneath her spectacles. Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. It must have made sense to Dumbledore, though, because he put it back in his pocket and said, "Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you I'd be here, by the way?" He was ripping the paper off a gold wristwatch when Aunt Petunia came back from the telephone looking both angry and worried. Harry lay in his dark cupboard much later, wishing he had a watch. He didn't know what time it was and he couldn't be sure the Dursleys were asleep yet. The lighted dial of Dudley's watch, which was dangling over the edge of the sofa on his fat wrist, told Harry he'd be eleven in ten minutes' time. Ron looked at his watch and then glared furiously at Hermione and Neville. When Angelina had scored, Harry had done a couple of loop-the-loops to let off his feelings. Now he was back to staring around for the Snitch. Once he caught sight of a flash of gold, but it was just a reflection from one of the Weasleys' wristwatches, and once a Bludger decided to come pelting his way, more like a cannonball than anything, but Harry dodged it and Fred Weasley came chasing after it. Chamber of Secrets "Hermione, let me read your composition," said Ron desperately, checking his watch. "We'd better get going," said Harry, loosening the watch that was cutting into Goyle's thick wrist. "We've still got to find out where the Slytherin common room is. I only hope we can find someone to follow..." Harry looked at his watch. Five of their precious sixty minutes had already passed. Prisoner of Azkaban Uncle Vernon drained his teacup, glanced at his watch, and added, "I'd better be off in a minute, Petunia. Marge's train gets in at ten." "We can't be there yet," said Hermione, checking her watch. Ron looked at his watch. "If we hurried, we could go down and see him. It's still quite early..." Hermione checked her watch. "We'd better go down, you know, the feast'll be starting in five minutes." They hurried through the portrait hole and into the crowd, still discussing Snape. "She's seeing us all separately," Neville informed them as they went to sit down next to him. He had his copy of Unfogging the Future open on his lap at the pages devoted to crystal gazing. "Have either of you ever seen anything in a crystal ball?" he asked them unhappily. "Nope," said Ron in an offhand voice. He kept checking his watch; Harry knew that he was counting down the time until Buckbeak's appeal started. "Yeah," said Harry, looking at his own watch. It was now two o'clock. "Wish she'd hurry up..." "I am going to lock you in. It is --" he consulted his watch, "five minutes to midnight. Miss Granger, three turns should do it. Good luck." "Right, it's nearly time," said Hermione tensely, looking at her watch. "We've got about forty-five minutes until Dumbledore locks the door to the hospital wing. We've got to rescue Sirius and get back into the ward before anybody realizes we're missing...." "D'you reckon he's up there yet?" said Harry, checking his watch. He looked up at the castle and began counting the windows to the right of the West Tower. Hermione was tugging at his sleeve, staring at her watch. "We've got exactly ten minutes to get back down to the hospital wing without anybody seeing us -- before Dumbledore locks the door --" "Oh, he's horrible," whispered Hermione, her ear to the door. "I bet he's all excited because the dementors are going to finish off Sirius...." She checked her watch. "Three minutes, Harry!" "I don't want to think about it!" Hermione moaned, checking her watch again. "One minute!" Goblet of Fire Dudley was crammed into an armchair, his porky hands beneath him, clamped firmly around his bottom. Harry couldn't take the tension; he left the room and went and sat on the stairs in the hall, his eyes on his watch and his heart pumping fast from excitement and nerves. "Look at the time," Mrs Weasley said suddenly, checking her wristwatch. They trudged down the dark, dank lane toward the village, the silence broken only by their footsteps. The sky lightened very slowly as they made their way through the village, its inky blackness diluting to deepest blue. Harry's hands and feet were freezing. Mr. Weasley kept checking his watch. "Must be nearly time," said Mr. Weasley quickly, pulling out his watch again. "Do you know whether we're waiting for any more, Amos?" "Three..." muttered Mr. Weasley, one eye still on his watch, "two...one..." Harry disentangled himself from Ron and got to his feet. They had arrived on what appeared to be a deserted stretch of misty moor. In front of them was a pair of tired and grumpy-looking wizards, one of whom was holding a large gold watch, the other a thick roll of parchment and a quill. Both were dressed as Muggles, though very inexpertly: The man with the watch wore a tweed suit with thigh- length galoshes; his colleague, a kilt and a poncho. "Nearly six," said Ron, checking his watch and then staring down the drive that led to the front gates. "How d'you reckon they're coming? The train?" So far, however, all they had managed to do was get the badges stuck on POTTER STINKS. Harry crept past them to the portrait hole and waited for a minute or so, keeping an eye on his watch. And still they walked, Harry getting more and more irritated as he jogged along in their wake, checking his watch every now and then. Wand tip alight, he crept along the bookshelves, pulling down more books - books of hexes and charms, books on merpeople and water monsters, books on famous witches and wizards, on magical inventions, on anything at all that might include one passing reference to underwater survival. He carried them over to a table, then set to work, searching them by the narrow beam of his wand, occasionally checking his watch... "Ten minutes?" Harry croaked. "Ten -- ten minutes?" He looked down at his watch. Dobby was right. It was twenty past nine. A large, dead weight seemed to fall through Harry's chest into his stomach. Where were the other champions? Would he have time to take Ron to the surface and come back down for Hermione and the others? Would he be able to find them again? He looked down at his watch to see how much time was left -- it had stopped working. Harry checked his watch, then remembered it hadn't been working since it had spent over an hour in the lake. One of the nifflers had suddenly leapt up and attempted to bite Pansy Parkinson's watch off her wrist. She shrieked and jumped backward. Harry took off his watch, which he was only wearing out of habit, as it didn't work anymore, and stuffed it into his pocket. Then he picked up a niffler. It put its long snout in Harry's ear and sniffed enthusiastically. It was really quite cuddly. History of Magic had rarely gone so slowly. Harry kept checking Ron's watch, having finally discarded his own, but Ron's was moving so slowly he could have sworn it had stopped working too. All three of them were so tired they could happily have put their heads down on the desks and slept; even Hermione wasn't taking her usual notes, but was sitting with her head on her hand, gazing at Professor Binns with her eyes out of focus. Hermione looked at her watch. "We haven't done any practicing!" she said, looking shocked. "We were going to do the Impediment Curse! We'll have to really get down to it tomorrow! Come on. Harry, you need to get some sleep." Order of the Phoenix "He's excellent," said Lupin, who was checking his watch "I don't know, it's just what Mad-Eye says," said Hermione, distractedly looking at her watch. "Wotcher, Harry," she said, winking. "Better hurry up, hadn't we, Molly?" she added, checking her watch. "Just a couple of people," Hermione repeated, checking her watch and looking anxiously at the door. A few goals and they would be in the lead as usual, Harry assured himself, bobbing and weaving through the other players in pursuit of something shiny that turned out to be Montague's watchstrap. "So, anyway," he checked his watch, "phase one is about to begin." "You will tell your Aurors to stop searching for my Care of Magical Creatures teacher so that he can return to work. I will give you " Dumbledore pulled a watch with twelve hands from his pocket and surveyed it "half an hour of my time tonight " Vivian - Who wonders what the importance of DD's scar is? Was he once a horcrux, like Harry? Just a thought. From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 11:31:30 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:31:30 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow: A thought experiment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134989 > Lupinlore said: A scene provided for your approval or contempt: Snape, Harry, and > Wormtail in confrontation. > > HARRY: How could you have done it? HOW? > > SNAPE: If I had not killed Dumbledore, I would have died. > > WORMTAIL: Then you should have died, as he would have died for you. > > And thus the fall of Snape is the redemption of Peter. > > What think you? > I think it's a really excellent idea, particularly in that it brings Peter's store around full circle. However, I think it also assumes a lot of Peter, particularly in that he must first understand that Snape was indebted to Dumbledore enough that he should have died for him (and that DD would, in turn, have died for Snape); and second, that he understands that sort of bond. Granted, I'm a big Peter person. I do believe he's going to be redeemed, and I think this would be an awesome way of doing it. But I also think that Peter is not aware of the finer points of Snape's connection to Dumbledore, despite their living together (and we don't know how long that arrangement has been lasting). I suppose my question is how Peter would be worked up to the point that he *could* make such a statement to Snape, and have it make perfect sense that he would have figured out his own mistake years previously? --azriona From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 11:34:27 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:34:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione intelligent? (was: Re: Am I the only one...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ahsonazmat" wrote: > Actually, she got the idea of the protean charm (for DA members) > from the Dark Mark tatooed unto Death Eaters. She admits this > to Harry. In reality, her that is only evidence of the same thing > Harry does this year in potions - copy. > Hi if youre saying (as i think you are, correct me if im wrong) that Hermione simply coiped the idea of the dark mark in the same way as Harry copied the instructions from the HBP, i think there is a major difference. She actually took a concept and reapplied it in a totally new situation where she had to cme up with the mechanics and work out the logistics all by herself. Isn't that what real intelligence is all about, taking an idea and adapting it to a different purpose? She definetly didnt copy anything (unless she got in touch with Voldy and asked him for directions:) and she changed the mechanics majorly (from skin to coins). I think that is ample proof of her ability to innovate. (shagufta) >>brews Polyjuice Potion in her second year, by getting > a restricted book out of the library. (Iris) >>But it wasn't an experiment, she followed the instructions in the book. (shagufta) yes wrong example. Actually the above example would have been a better one. She obviously didnt invent the spell (or charm, i never know which is which) but she adapted it to her need. Regarding Fred and George, absolute geniuses, no argument. Im sure their inventions are going to play a bigger role in the final war. cheers shagufta From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 11:37:07 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:37:07 -0000 Subject: Does Dung have the Horcrux? was Harry's not a Horcrux was In Essence Divided In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134991 Karen said: So, unless there was a third party there who > did know the significance, which is debatable as I don't think even > Snape or other Death Eaters knew about them then, if now then one of > the Horcruxes is probably still in the ruins of Godrick's Hollow. But wouldn't it have been unused, since as Harry didn't die, Voldy didn't make the horcrux, and the object then was either stored in some DE's home, or left in Godric's Hollow? (And if it was the latter, how much you want to bet Mundungus Fletcher sold it on the black market?) Actually...speaking of "Black" markets....you don't suppose one of those things that Dung was stealing from Grimmauld Place could have been the horcrux, do you? Not a clue how it would have gotten there, but there has to be a reason why what Dung was sealing was important, else JKR wouldn't have included the scene. --azriona From azriona at juno.com Tue Jul 26 11:41:17 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:41:17 -0000 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I the only one...) In-Reply-To: <005601c591c5$708bc480$35c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134992 Lasp1x said: But could the person who comes into magic late in life be as simple as being Merope? We are told by Dumbledore that she couldn't do magic until she left the Gaunt house and her father also calls her a squib. > > > azriona said: "I'd forgotten all about that statement of hers. Yeah, I totally agree that the person is Merope. CathyD said: > Do you really think 18 is *late in life*? DD said something along the lines of Merope's magic being not what it should be while she was tormented and tortured by her father and brother. It didn't show in the best light. Something along those lines. (Sorry, I hate not being able to quote but my book isn't handy.) I think she was a witch all along, she was just so cowed and frightened by her father and her brother, everything she did went wrong. Marvolo was calling her a Squib as even more torment. Az again: Yeah, actually, I do think 18 is late in life - when you're talking about a society where children start showing magic at the age of three and four, and if by eight you haven't shown it, you get dropped out of a window by your great-uncle. (Neville being case in point.) Maybe 18 isn't that old for us, but I think 18 would be pretty much past the age of being able to do anything about it for them. --azriona From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 12:05:12 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:05:12 -0000 Subject: Two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134993 Adi wrote: > I have a few questions about HBP: > 1)Why does everyone in Book6 behave in such a blaise manner whenever > Harry tells him or her about his doubts regarding Malfoy? Once or > twice is ok but why do they persist in disbelieving Harry for so long? Valky: I am not sure how to answer that one. As I was reading it seemed to me that most people around Harry were trying very hard to keep his head level for him. After the stressed behaviour that Harry demonstrated in OOtP, I imagine that those close to Harry might be concerned about him jumping headlong into something foolish again. It's not really an excuse for giving his thoughts so little credit for so long, but it is a valid reason. > 2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or > kill DD? Valky: This one is easy. How did Dumbledore react when he realised that Draco was sent by Voldemort to kill him? I'll answer that, he thought of almost nothing but the safety and welfare of Draco and his beloved family. This is exactly what Voldemort counted on in sending Draco to do the deed, that Dumbledore would act just like "fools who love" act and barely defend himself, let alone catch Draco in the act and punish him at risk of Draco and Narcissa's death. One may think that an accomplished wizard might have stood a better chance than Draco of cornering Dumbledore and having him wandless before them, but I beg to differ on that. Voldemort showed his knowledge of his opponent DD and the weaknesses that were exploitable in him when he chose Draco for the job. It was a highly strategic move in a very tightly matched game of wizard chess. > > bye > Adi: > Ps: I had so many questions before but I forgot all of them. Valky: Next question ! LOL From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 26 12:20:09 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:20:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD and Lily's Charm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E62A79.1040908@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 134994 Florence wrote: > "Bob Alberti" wrote: > > >>DD deliberately chose to die to protect his students. >>Did DD's death confer the kind of protection on Draco that Lily >>conferred on Harry? >> >>Did it extend to Harry? >> >>Did it extend to all the Hogwarts students? >> >>Did it extend to the castle itself? digger: Interesting idea. Harry is in need of a new protective charm, because Dumbledore explicitly states that Harry's current protection via Petunia runs out the moment Harry turns 17. That means that Harry has at most a couple of weeks of safety with the Dursleys before Voldemort and his Death Eaters can come swarming into 4 Privet Drive and attempt murder. I hope that Harry appreciates this, and makes himself scarce before midnight on 30th July, or we might see scenes of carnage in suburban Surrey, and who knows, even witness an act of magic from a desperate muggle in the process ;-) "digger" -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 25/07/2005 From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 12:26:30 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:26:30 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134995 jlnbtr: > > Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very > smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, > create... She can't think outside the box. Amiable Dorsai: Other than deducing that students were being petrified by a basilisk, that Harry's Firebolt was most likely sent to him by Sirius Black (She simply misunderstood his motives), that Lupin was a werewolf, and that Rita was an Animagus. Not to mention realizing that there was another way to get Harry's story out than through the Daily Prophet, and that she had the perfect reporter to use. And, of course, there's her creation of Dumbledore's Army, when most people would probably have settled for private tutoring from Harry. We should probably also notice her spur-of-the-moment inspiration for preventing Umbridge from using the Cruciatus on Harry (Not a perfect plan, but she *was* winging it.) Other than that, I agree, there's little evidence of creative thought on Hermione's part. Amiable "Rolls eyes" Dorsai From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Tue Jul 26 10:45:27 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:45:27 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134996 Cindy wrote: > Has anyone come up with any ideas why everybody seems to be hitting > the bottle in this book? Two theories: one is that the whole WW has become so highly charged that everyone is stressed and fraught and so turns to some sort of light relief, i.e. drink. The second theory is that they have always had drink but because everyone is so much older it is more visible to them and possibly not as hidden from them. Wapp13 From bex753 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 09:56:36 2005 From: bex753 at yahoo.co.uk (Bex) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:56:36 +0100 Subject: sniverly lurves evans Message-ID: <000b01c591c8$4fa3f8c0$6601a8c0@TheDoctor> No: HPFGUIDX 134997 Until the 6th year the Gryffindor and Slytherin don't have much contact maybe one shared lesson. As NEWT students all the houses are mixed together in there lessons. Its not much of a stretch to suppose that none of the Marauders took potions as NEWT level , Remus and Peter probably not eligible for the course, Sirius and James may have ditched it , its not a very macho subject a bit like cooking (as a qualified chef I think its allot like cooking) Slughorn may have made his 2 potion stars Lily and Snape work together. In this case Snape over time would have gotten over his prejudice and become to respect her and in an unrequited way love her. As Shughorn said no one whe ever met Lily Evan could not love her Another thought the Half blood princes potion book could be the collaboration of both their works. This brings us to Snapes worst memory. Snape was hiding it not for how he was humiliated by Harrys father but by how Snape treated Harry mother the only women he ever loved. Like Draco he was enamoured with the dark arts and Voldemore, when he realised what the consequence of this are, the love of his life (if unrequited) is going to be murdered he would run back the Dumbledore If this has been thrashed out before sorry but too many emails on this list , life to get on with. Bex. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 12:37:35 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:37:35 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux -- Snape is a nice wizard because ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134998 Schumar: Although I think Vivian made some good points, I have to vehemently disagree with the first snipped statement above, and both agree and disagree with the second snipped paragraph. First of all, Snape was NOT "aiding and abetting a competent and lethal squad of death eaters." Remember, he did not know what Draco's plan was _exactly_, because Draco seemed to think that if Snape knows, he won't be helping Draco but only helping himself and taking the glory as his own. Snape even had to attempt legilimency to get more information out ofthe young Malfoy, and that was unsuccessful. (Snape commented that Aunt Bellatrix must be teaching Occlumency). Here's another thing -- Snape was in his office when the death eaters came through the cabinet, and only surfaced after Dumbledore called for him. (I feel I must again bring up at this point that Snape did not kill Flitwick, Hermione, Luna, or anyone else in his path when surely he could have done so and still gotten to Draco and Dumbledore.) Even Draco did not intend for Greyback to come through, he only thought that Greyback was working to make sure Bourgin was doing what he was supposed to, and did not invite him to Hogwarts. Even during the Great Escape, Snape acontinued to "instruct" Harry , and prevented other death eaters from hurting Harry. His claim to be saving Harry for Voldemort seems to me to be a cover because none of the death eaters (and even no ones else in the Order except Dumbledore) know the entire prophecy, that Harry must be killed by Voldemort himself and vice versa. vmonte: My first comment is that please be careful when quoting other people. This is the second time in the last two weeks that other people's quotes were contributed to me. Second: Snape couldn't kill any of the kids because they had all taken the luck potion; besides murdering people would have really done him in. He wouldn't have been able to basically walk right out of Hogwarts if he, at any point, started killing people, now would he? No one in the Order went after Snape because they thought he was on their side, no one from Voldemort's side tried to stop him either. When Snape killed Dumbledore there were no Order witnesses, or so he thought. Why wouldn't Snape just get the hell out of there before anyone suspected him? I'm sure that Dumbledore made other precautions to protect the kids in case something went wrong. (I would have made all the Order members make an "oath pact," what Draco's mom did to Snape, and swear allegiance to the kids at the school--but that's just me.) Vivian From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 26 13:01:03 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:01:03 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy - an intended Horcrux! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 134999 OK, you will have to bare with me whilst I make this point. With these books, I think many of us find certain parts do not quite make sense. The major problem areas for me are; 1. Why did the rebounded AK blow up Godric's Hollow? 2. Why, having spent 14 years trying to regain his body, does Voldemort attempt to AK Harry (the very reason he lost physical form) moments after his rebirth? 3. Why does he spend the whole of OOTP trying to obtain a `weapon' to defeat Harry, and yet when they meet, he casually attempts to AK Harry immediately? OK, I hope you can follow my logic here. What if Voldemort had intended to make the prophecy a Horcrux? What if he intended Harry to deliver him the Horcrux, kill Harry, split his soul, and put a piece of soul in the Prophecy? He would then have a Horcrux that nobody else could touch without suffering madness (except Harry ? who would be dead). Now, if Voldemort was wise enough to attempt this with the prophecy, perhaps he would have attempted the same thing on baby Harry i.e. make Harry a Horcrux (I fully admit that this theory has been suggested before). Therefore, the very person with the power to destroy the dark lord, would have to kill himself, before he could truly vanquish Voldemort. 'Voldemort put a piece of himself in me?' said Harry thunderstruck. 'It certainly seems so'. COS p245 (UK edition) So what happened when Voldemort attempted to make a Harry a Horcrux? Voldemort is the epitomy of evil. Harry was the epitomy of love (his mother's love & self sacrifice). I have a feeling that there would be a fierce opposition to the merging of such opposites i.e. the explosion. This is what `killed' Voldemort and destroyed Godric's Hollow. Finally, this explains why Voldemort so casually attempts to AK Harry whenever they meet. He has never attempted it before and therefore has no reason to believe it will not work. Brothergib From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 13:28:48 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:28:48 -0000 Subject: Two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135000 Adi wrote: snip > > 2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or > > kill DD? > snipping valky's excellent response Meri now: Also I think a big reason LV chose Draco for this job is he wouldn't care what happened to the boy if he failed or died in the attempt, which is what Narcissa was so afraid would happen. LV wouldn't think twice about killing Draco if anything went wrong and he wouldn't care if Draco killed himself. Narcissa was probably right to some extent, that LV was upset (to put it lightly) that Lucius had screwed up so badly at the Ministry, and if his beloved only child was killed in action, what better punishment? LV has, as DD said, as little respect for his followers as he does his enemies, he is merciless and simply wouldn't care. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 13:41:25 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:41:25 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow: A thought experiment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > What is the main theme around Peter Pettigrew? What one quote sums > up the big questions that lurk with regard to Wormtail. I submit > it's when he says that if he hadn't betrayed the Potters Voldemort > would have killed him, and he is answered "Then you should have died, > as we would have died for you." In other words, the theme is trust. > > What is the main theme with Snape? Trust, once again. And once > again we are provided a situation in which, on the face of it, a man > has to keep faith with his friends and die or break faith with his > friends and live. And Harry calling Snape a coward at the end of > OOTP surely hit a nerve. As someone has recently commented, the > insults that hit home are the ones that, deep in our own hearts, we > think are true. > > We know Peter owes Harry. We know Peter is working for Snape. Will > the theme of trust arise yet again? > > A scene provided for your approval or contempt: Snape, Harry, and > Wormtail in confrontation. > > HARRY: How could you have done it? HOW? > > SNAPE: If I had not killed Dumbledore, I would have died. > > WORMTAIL: Then you should have died, as he would have died for you. > > And thus the fall of Snape is the redemption of Peter. > Marianne: I think that you have touched on two themes that will play out in book 7. Trust (along with loyalty) and cowardice. We don't really have enough on Peter to know how or why he turned. He said it was to save his own life. But, how enthusiastic a DE was he? Did he start small and then, as time went on, give information that was more and more important? Did he ever regret his actions? Did he go through agonizing rationalizations to excuse his betrayals in his own mind until it got to the point where he realized he was in it up to his neck? Or was his seduction by the Dark Side relatively painless and he spent a year secretly giggling to himself that he was fooling everyone around him, all those people who thought he was never as skilled a wizard as James and Sirius? The reason I bring this up is that the idea of the redemption of Peter needs quite a bit of fleshing out to be compelling, whether or not it coincides with the fall of Snape. I wouldn't buy Peter suddenly having an epiphany about trust and loyalty and thus being compelled to do the right thing. However, I could buy Peter causing the fall of Snape or helping in the demise of Vmort because it's in his best, self-serving interests to do so. And, thus at the end of the story, great evil would be defeated, but we'd all know that every-day, garden variety bad people would still be able to figure out how to keep a place in the world. As far as cowardice goes, I think that theme will come up again because it seems to be a long-term, hot button issue for Snape. In OoP Snape enjoys insinuating to Sirius that he is a coward for staying hidden at 12 GP. That scene made me wonder if young Severus had ever been taunted for cowardice by the Marauders. For someone who insists that it is a weakness to let one's emotions overtake them, Snape sure seems to have a problem controlling his reaction to that particular charge. Marianne From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 26 13:41:56 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:41:56 -0000 Subject: Two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135002 --- "M.Clifford" wrote: > > Adi wrote: > > I have a few questions about HBP: > > > > 1)Why does everyone in Book6 behave in such a blaise manner whenever > > Harry tells him or her about his doubts regarding Malfoy? Once or > > twice is ok but why do they persist in disbelieving Harry for so long? > > Valky: > I am not sure how to answer that one. As I was reading it seemed to me > that most people around Harry were trying very hard to keep his head > level for him. After the stressed behaviour that Harry demonstrated in > OOtP, I imagine that those close to Harry might be concerned about him > jumping headlong into something foolish again. It's not really an > excuse for giving his thoughts so little credit for so long, but it is > a valid reason. > aussie: LOL LOL LOL You ask 1st why no-one thinks Harry is right when he suggests Draco was trusted by LV to be a DE, then you ask why the heck did LV trust Draco. That was the same arguement Ron and Hermione gave. LV trust a 16 year old? > > > > 2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or > > kill DD? > > Valky: > This one is easy. How did Dumbledore react when he realised that Draco > was sent by Voldemort to kill him? I'll answer that, he thought of > almost nothing but the safety and welfare of Draco and his beloved > family. This is exactly what Voldemort counted on in sending Draco to > do the deed, that Dumbledore would act just like "fools who love" act > and barely defend himself, let alone catch Draco in the act and punish > him at risk of Draco and Narcissa's death. One may think that an > accomplished wizard might have stood a better chance than Draco of > cornering Dumbledore and having him wandless before them, but I beg to > differ on that. Voldemort showed his knowledge of his opponent DD and > the weaknesses that were exploitable in him when he chose Draco for > the job. It was a highly strategic move in a very tightly matched game > of wizard chess. > > aussie: There may be much, MUCH more to it. The other DE stood back waiting for Draco to finish the deed, not allowing anyone else to do it. Initiation (ceremony) into being a DE? Some other characteristic as to what happens to one's soul after murdering that LV wanted Draco to experience? From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 13:42:28 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:42:28 -0000 Subject: When Dumbledore drank the potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "christopher" wrote: > When Dumbledore was drinking the potion in the cave, some of his > lines in my opinion seem to refelect what was happening at > the school during the DE attack. Also some lines seem to reflect what > happened in the death scene as well. > > Here are some examples: > 'Don't hurt them, please, its my fault hurt me instead' > If Dumbeldore was witnessing the attack at the school,would he > possibly be thinking that. > > Also the line'Kill me!' Could be linked to the fact that Snapekilled > Dumbeldore soon afterwards. > > > christopherauk Merrylinks says: I saw that parallelism, too. Then last night I noticed another parallelism. In Chapter 26, when Dumbledore drinks the tenth and last goblet of potion in the cave, he appears to die. After Harry heaves him over onto his back, it says, "...Dumbledore's glasses were askew, his mouth agape, his eyes closed." Now move to the scene at the foot of the Astronomy Tower in Chapter 28. "Dumbledore's eyes were closed...Harry reached out and straightened the half-moon spectacles upon the crooked nose, and wiped a trickle of blood from the mouth with his own sleeve." It does seem possible that the events in the cave are a preview of the subsequent events at the Astronomy Tower. Merrylinks From literature_Caro at web.de Mon Jul 25 21:44:21 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:44:21 +0200 Subject: Harry a horcrux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494869152.20050725234421@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135004 > Has anyone considered that Harry himself may be a horcrux? I thought so, too. I have also given evidence by using PS/SS in my answer to "In Essence Divided": The dream Harry had after he got sorted out for Griffindor in PS. There he dreamt that he wore Quirrel's turban and that this tired to convince him to join the house of Slytherin. Harry tried to pull it off but did not succeed. It even wrapped itself even more tighter around his head. Could this turban be a personification of the piece of soul Harry bears within him? For sure a piece of a Slytherin ancestor's would try to go where its "home" is, especially because DD says in HBP that Hogwarts always meant something special to Voldemort. So harry tried to clear himself of some kind of parasite which he could not get rid of. Caro From bex753 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 11:31:24 2005 From: bex753 at yahoo.co.uk (Bex) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:31:24 +0100 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? References: Message-ID: <01f701c591d5$8dcc3880$6501a8c0@quietpc> No: HPFGUIDX 135005 Snapeophile: > Also, re-reading HBP, I think the comment Ginny made to Hermione > ("Oh don't act like you understand Quidditch," snapped Ginny 'you'll > only embarrass yourself.") > > This is one of the most hateful, spiteful lines in the entire books. I > never liked Ginny, not one iota, but now she has fallen into the "if > voldemort gets her category, I don't care." You are being a bit harsh Ginny is only 15 and she was defending Harry at the time. Ron said the most hurtfull thing in the series in PS "no wonder she has no friends" and we forgave him. Bex From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Jul 26 12:44:00 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:44:00 EDT Subject: Is Regulus, Stubby Boardman? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135006 Chancie: > Hi, I know it's probably a stupid thought, but > I was thinking what if Regulus is Stubby Bordman > from the Quibbler article in OOP? This is a really fun idea, but I don't think it's true. In response to an interview question, "Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books?" JKR answered, "Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days." She could have answered the question without saying outright that he was dead (i.e., "You'll hear more about him in Book So-and-So," or just simply one of her enigmatic, "Maybe"s), so I take the fact that she did to mean that he is truly dead. Here's the link: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm spotsgal From dimoffamily at centurytel.net Tue Jul 26 13:39:05 2005 From: dimoffamily at centurytel.net (mompowered) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:39:05 -0000 Subject: The loop hole - Snape in Dumbeldore's pensive In-Reply-To: <94498024.20050725194051@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, literature_Caro wrote: > English it is called "The Pensive") and sees Karkaroff's trial Snape > is denounced being a Death Eater. There DD says that Snape was indeed > one but started working as a spy before (!) Voldemort fell. > But DD tells Harry in HBP that Snape felt remorse that the Potters > died and joined him which was after (!) Voldemort fell. Did DD tell Harry that Snape joined him after LV fell? If my memory serves me correctly (I don't have the book right here), DD told Harry that Snape joined him after realizing how LV was interpreting the prophecy and finding out which family and boy LV was targeting. This could have been before LV's fall, Snape could have been the one that told DD of LV's plans so that the Potters were hidden. Cheryl From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Jul 26 14:26:03 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:26:03 -0000 Subject: Theory regarding Harry Being a Horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135008 Cory wrote: > > My question is this: is it possible that part of Voldemort's > > soul *was* in Harry, but that Voldemort unwittingly reunited > > this part with himself when he used Harry's blood to resurrect > > himself in the graveyard in GOF? This would explain > > Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" at hearing that Voldemort had > > used Harry's blood. Kristin wrote: > I would love it if this were true, but to me, the significant thing > about the gleam is how quickly it faded. The impression I got from > those lines was that Dumbledore knows that Voldemort has made > himself vulnerable, thus the triumphant gleam, but that exploiting > that vulnerablity would also be harmful to Harry, which is why the > gleam fades. I just finished re-reading GoF (aloud to my BF, which brought more things into relief than if I had read it to myself) and I stopped after I read about the "gleam of triumph." I think the fact that Voldemort used Harry's blood is going to be very significant--does it mean that if Harry was a Horcrux that he no longer is one (even though I am increasingly no longer thinking Harry is a Horcrux)? It's possible--but it doesn't mean IMO that Voldemort did so unwittingly for there is no way that Voldemort doesn't know exactly how a Horcrux works. If Harry is a Horcrus, then Voldemort took that piece of his soul back deliberately. I read the gleam fading, in the new context of having read HBP, that DD's triumph faded because he knew how much hardship, suffering, and loss lay ahead in this new war in the wizarding world. jujube From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 14:27:08 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:27:08 -0000 Subject: Ugly equals evil? (was:Re: Snape's Parents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135009 Betsy Hp: > > Actually, I've not found that to be the case. Beautiful does *not* equal good in JKR's world. A prime example is the devastantingly handsome Tom Riddle. (Does Harry ever skip an opportunity to describe him as good looking?) The Black sisters are another good example. Both Bellatrix and Narcissa are described as quite beautiful, and yet they're both very much Death Eaters. (Narcissa loves and wishes to protect her son, but she's also *very* interested in Dumbledore dying. And she was directly involved in the plan that led to Sirius's death.) > > Actually, what I've found interesting is that very few characters are ever described as good looking. Tom Riddle, Bill Weasley, Fleur, the Black sisters, Sirius, Cho, Cedric, Blaise, Ginny and possibly Lily are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. And there's a fairly even distribution of good and evil and neutral folk on that list. > We can only guess that Hermione and Ron and Harry are attractive because they've got admirers, and of course, Harry as hero should be attractive according to the rules of the genre. But generally, JKR's descriptors are not all that flattering. Even with the good guys > Hickengruendler replied: > > Don't forget the very handsome Gilderoy Lockhart. He would be very > disappointed now. > I partly agree with you. Saying that all the evil characters are > ugly, or that all the beautiful characters are good, is wrong and > would do JKR injustice. However, I still can see where Wanda is > coming from, it has to do with two of JKR's technics. > > 1: The parodistic characters > > Umbridge, Rita and the Dursleys for example, are caricatures. Surely we can see their behaviour in everydaylife, but they are overdrawn on purpose. And in this case, the extreme ugliness doesn't reflect the evil- or at least pettiness of the characters, but it is another method to show them as caricatures. Trelawney as well, though she isn't quite as unpleasant as the ones mentioned above. On the flip side we have Gilderoy Lockhart, who isn't taken to be serious as well, but in whose case it is important that he's beautiful. > > 2: The description of the background characters > > While I agree with you point above, that good and evil characters are both, ugly and beautiful, this is not true for the Background characters. All the Death Eaters, who don't play a major or semi- major part in the plot, are ugly and fat and mostly dim, this already starts with MacNair, the executioner, although he had a semi- major part in at least one book. The same is true for most of the background Slytherins. Here I think it is obvious, that JKR doesn't have the time to develop those characters as well, therefore they are in looks and characteristic exactly the same, and in fact not quite unlike Tolkien's Orks (except that they are still human). > > In fact, the first minor Death Eater were she broke that rule, is the werewolf Greyback, who is awful as well, and I think also looks ugly as well, but who is that scary and horrible, that in spite of his minor screentime he overshadows the other Death Eaters. ****Marcela now: We should also watch the pattern that Jo's designed for the 'fates' of all those characters described as 'beautiful': - Lily = got killed by Voldie. - Tom Riddle = beautiful but born evil, no redeeming trait whatsoever, as a matter of fact, Jo turned him uglier the more evil he got. - Lockhart = got sent to St. Mungos, still there. - Cedric = got gratuitously killed by Voldie's orders. - Cho = she turned into a human hosepipe and then into a harpy. - Bill Weasley = the coolest character, got desfigured and turned semi-werewolf. - Bellatrix = sent to Azkaban and not pretty anymore, remained evil. - Sirius = need I explain? - Fleur = the girl that'd go for looks only got shot down a peg or two by being engaged with poor Bill. With Fleur's character Jo has redeemed her superficial personality twice already, in GoF and HBP. Funny thing is that Jo does it as a 'punishment': Fleur's character only redeemed herself to the readers because she had suffered a loss of some kind which would allow us to see beyond her superficial self. I wonder if Jo's got something bad awaiting Ginny's character's fate... Marcela From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 14:36:20 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726143620.89496.qmail@web32715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135010 Shannon wrote: No, it's not ok. And no one has a greater duty to be nice than anyone else. But Fleur's greatest sin is being tactless and a little arrogant. As far as we can see, she doesn't make personal judgements against anyone in the family, the way they have all done with her. Hermione and Ginny at least, know there is more to Fleur, or they should after the Tri-Wizard tournament. They don't even have nasty nicknames for Malfoy, someone they have very personal, specific reasons for hating. Lynn: Well, I think Fleur is more than just a little arrogant but she is much more than tactless as well. Fleur is rude and disrespectful and, by not trying to accept the family as they are, making her personal judgment that they aren't good enough. Fleur does make personal judgements. By treating Ginny as a 3 year old rather than the young lady she is, Fleur is pronouncing Ginny not worthy of an attempt to get to know who Ginny really is. As I said, I doubt Fleur treats her own sister in such a condescending manner and Ginny is older. Since Fleur automatically had treated Harry that way at the beginning of GOF, we learn that it isn't necessarily something Ginny's done for Fleur to treat her this way. By her criticisms she's making personal judgements that there are things inferior about the family, such as Molly's taste in music. She makes a personal judgement about Ron and Tonks when she talks about them being clumsy. Why should Ginny and Hermione know more about Fleur after the Triwizard Tournament? Fleur looked down her nose on anyone younger than her. The only reason she doesn't treat Harry badly anymore is because he saved her sister when Fleur wasn't able to do it herself. When one treats people badly, it tends to color how they are thought of by others. We don't know if Ginny has nicknames for other people and this appears to be her nickname rather than everyones. That said, if Ginny doesn't have nicknames for other nasty people, it shows just how personally offended by Fleur she feels. Of course, it's also more personal as Ginny knows this is someone she's going to have to put up with for the rest of her life. I agree with another poster who pointed out that Ginny is acting her age - one minute being a brat and the next minute showing maturity. Having had "houseguests from hell", I understand the need to go into a separate room and vent so that you can go back and try to be polite to the very people who seem intent on offending you. You try to be a good hostess but they make it very hard indeed. I had the advantage of knowing those people will never be invited to stay with us again. The Weasleys don't have that to look forward to. adairfletch wrote: I think what Shannon meant was that Ginny, Hermione, and Molly were doing exactly what they dislike Fleur for doing. Yes, Fleur can be rude and disrespectful, but that is not an excuse for others to do it in return, be it in private or not, and personally, I'd rather someone insult me to my face instead of behind my back. If the three dislike her haughty arrogance so much, than they should be doing their best to be above such behavior. Lynn: It's a bit sanctimonious to say that people cannot have private opinions about people that aren't flattering. And remember, Molly chides Ginny for using the nickname "Plegm" so I don't see how Molly gets put into that category anyway. Perhaps Mother Theresa never made comments about someone to her friends but my guess is that most other people in the world have, particularly to close friends and family. adairfletch wrote Um, the bit about Tonks... what? I don't think anyone has meant to imply that we see someone letting themself go due to depression as wrong. I think all anyone was implying is that it is wrong for a parent to force someone else on their child just because they don't like who their child has chosen, not when that chosen person makes said child happy. And it's not like Fleur is straight out of "Fatal Attraction," let's please put some perspective on this: Molly has no real complaint against Fleur, other than Fleur being, as you describe, rude, disrepectful, and insulting. Lynn: Fleur said Tonks was letting herself go and that it was a mistake. Fleur didn't acknowledge it was due to depression, I doubt Fleur even noticed Tonk's mood. Again, judgment based on appearance. I'm still failing to see why everyone continues to say Molly was forcing Tonks on Bill. Molly kept inviting Tonks over, it was others who gave it a reason and wrongly at that. Who is Fleur to make the determination who Molly can invite to her house or why Molly invites someone to her house? It's none of Fleur's business regardless of why she thinks it's happening. It's Molly's house and if Fleur doesn't like it, Fleur can leave. I find it interesting that someone being rude, disrepectful, and insulting to one is nothing to complain about. Wonder if someone's boss, mother or best friend would feel the same way if it was them putting up with that type of behavior? adairfletch wrote If Bill can look past it, then his family should too, for the simple reason of not wanting to alienate Bill or his future children. If they can't look past it, then they need to learn to live with it, for Bill's sake. And it would be different if Fleur were really as awful as you make her out to be, then I might be in your camp, but she's really not. Lynn: It's easy for Bill to look past it, it's not happening to him. And no, why should anyone have to put up with such rudeness and disrespect that Fleur shows. But, as I said, I blame Bill for allowing it to go on. If Fleur feels his family doesn't like her, Bill should be the one to confront the family about it. At that time he'd probably find out how they are feeling as well. IMO, it is not worth putting up with that type of rudeness regardless of the consequences. It's demeaning and damages the ability to have a civil relationship and also damages the relationship with the 3rd party, eg. Bill. If other people can handle it, more power to them. And yes, Fleur really is that bad, IMO. I concede how bad Fleur is perceived depends on how ill-mannered one thinks it is acceptable for a person to be. adairfletch wrote And Ginny isn't the best example to use, because I have a feeling Ginny is just as rude to Fleur as Fleur is to her, when she can get away with it; Ginny isn't one to sit back and take an insult. Neither is Hermione the best example, really, because I think her dislike of Fleur stems more from the way Ron acts around her. And Fleur is probably overly rude to Tonks, because Molly is making Tonks into a threat against her relationship with Bill. Fleur is tearing down possible competition, and though it isn't the right thing for her to do, again, I think she does it out of insecurity. Others judge her for being superficial, for only being a pretty face, but no one ever stops to think that Fleur might do the same thing to herself. She's secure in her looks, because in other areas she probably doubts herself, just like we all do. My point is that Fleur might always be annoying, but she isn't a horrible person. Let's leave that category to the Wormtails, Bellatrixes, and Voldemorts of the world. Lynn: First, no one has said Fleur is a horrible person on the scale of the DEs. She does have horrible manners and is rude, arrogant, self-absorebed, etc. If Ginny is being rude to Fleur, you would think Fleur would have bought a clue by now, since she's this champion and intelligent person, that perhaps there's a reason for the rudeness. I never got the impression that Hermione doesn't like Fleur because of Ron. Hermione puts the blame for Ron's reaction on Ron himself, not on Fleur. I think Hermione's feelings have much to do with Fleur's behavior all on it's own. As for Ginny, this is a person who looks past what's on the outside and instead takes great stock about what's on the inside of the person. We see this in how she relates to both Luna and Neville, two decidedly unpopular students. Ginny strikes me as someone who has enough respect for her mother not to make things worse by being openly rude to Fleur. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Ginny's emnity comes from what she perceives as the denigration of her family. Again, Molly isn't setting Tonks up as someone for Bill. Even if Molly was, that's no reason to be rude to Tonks. Unless Tonks was openly flirting with Bill, Fleur has no reason to be concerned. As far as Fleur's insecurity, nope, don't see it. She has done nothing to give any indication of insecurity, only arrogance. In fact, as I say below, Fleur shows her confidence. adairfletch wrote Well, neither would I, but I doubt Molly would even accept Fleur's help, and that's what myself and other posters mean when we way Molly's behavior is just as rude. And yes, the tray episode was disrepectful of Fleur, but if you'll go back and read it, she just wanted to say hello to Harry, whom Molly would not let her go see. Lynn: I disagree. I think Molly would have welcomed an overture to help, it would mean Fleur wanted to be part of the family. Again, who's making judgments? Molly is constantly accepting help when it's offered. As for the tray, Canon please where Molly doesn't let Fleur go to see Harry? Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps Molly was adhering to general standards of courteous behavior that one doesn't go bursting into someone's bedroom while they are still in bed? Ron, Hermione, Ginny and Molly have all seen Harry in his PJs. They are like family to him and he's comfortable with them. Fleur hasn't and isn't. I don't consider myself a prude but I don't want anyone just bursting into my bedroom when I'm in bed unless they are someone with whom I'm comfortable. Harry's reaction shows he feels pretty much the same way. Obviously if she can't wait for Harry to get dressed she has very little impulse control. If she wanted to see Harry so bad, she could have done the well-mannered thing - knocked and asked to be invited in. Again, she shows her lack of respect for the family and Harry or her lack of intelligence not to understand that someone may not want her bursting in on them. In addition, an insecure person wouldn't have burst through that door as if the world was waiting for them to arrive. That takes confidence. adairfletch wrote Or maybe she feels no one told Harry, because they don't want it broadcasted that Bill is marrying Fleur. Again: self-absorbed vs. insecurity. If Molly and the other girls have been subverting Fleur with other people, why would she not rush in to talk to Harry about the marriage first, especially since she likes Harry? Lynn: When did they have time to tell Harry? He arrived when people were in bed and they had just gone into his room to wake him up. People keep pointing to her intelligence. She's not showing much of it. Again, canon for subversion with all these other people? I don't blame her for wanting to tell Harry, it's wonderful news and she has every right to be excited about it. To whip Molly across the face is inexcuseable. To expect that to be the first news Harry hears from the family upon entering the house, is self-absorbed and self-centered. Apparently it doesn't matter to her that perhaps the family was trying to find out how Harry was doing and were thinking of him first. Or, better said, it hasn't occurred to her that perhaps this family is concerned with Harry's welfare enough to inquire after him first. Mind you, it didn't occur to her to ask how Harry was doing which is generally considered good manners when you haven't seen someone for over a year. I'm sure she would have heard about Harry's loss from Bill (if not, that doesn't say much about the relationship right there). At least, that would have been my first concern, not wondering why the family hadn't yet told him the news. Then again, I personally think the feelings of someone mourning the loss of a godparent would be a bit more important and immediate than my getting married next year. adairfletch wrote Ok, now we're just making biased judgments. How do we know if Fleur is hard-working or not? We don't, we don't know enough about her to make that kind of judgement. But she was in the Triwizard Tournament, so I wouldn't call her lazy. Is Fleur really full of herself, or just insecure? Again, we don't know. And I understand the Veela doubt, but people seem to get use to being around her, except for maybe Ron. And I don't think even Ron would propose to her just because of an infatuation, I'm sure Bill knows her better than we do. These kind of arguments irritate me, because they're the same kind of thing people have been using to argue against Harry/Ginny and Remus/Tonks. We don't know enough to say whether or not these people are good for each other, and even if we did, who are we to say what makes someone happy? Lynn: Um, no one called her lazy, who's making judgments? I was pointing out how it could be perceived by someone, especially a mother who wants the best for her child that Fleur isn't as hard-working as Bill. Molly has legitimate motherly concerns. What I was trying to point out was that Molly's concerns are natural. It's the type of concern a mother has throughout a child's life. A child may really like a friend but is that friend really good for the child? You know the child has to make decisions but you worry if they are making the right decisions, decisions that will affect their life. It's a natural part of life and, though I'm not really a Molly fan, I think JKR has written her in this context spot on. I don't think anyone other than the characters are making arguments about this relationship. At least I'm not since I really don't care whether Fleur and Bill stay together. adairfletch wrote Not if it's just bad music. And personally, I can't stand the pop love ballads that consistently fill the airwaves. Give me a Clash song to listen to any day over that garbage. Lynn: So, are you saying you think it is okay to be so rude to your hosts? To openly make fun of your hostess? I mean, is this how you would act in someone's home? You would go stay at a friend's house and make fun of the mother's choice in music in front of the mother? You would have no problem behaving as Fleur does to a friend's family? I know from what you said before that you wouldn't possibly do it privately because that in itself is rude. I ask because if that is how you'd behave, it's no wonder we don't agree on Fleur's behavior and we never will. We have very different views on what good manners are all about. adairfletch wrote Well, like I said before, if she makes Bill happy, then we have no right to complain. And if my nonexistent son became engaged to someone like her, or if one of my brothers did, I'd deal with it, for the reasons I mentioned above. Fleur doesn't have to make Molly happy, she's supposed to be making Bill happy. Lynn: Just because someone can make them happy now, in the short term, doesn't mean they can make them happy in the future. It's about knowing that they both love each other, a love that will see them through the worse not just the better. I was 40 when I first got married and my husband went through the 3rd degree with both sides of my family and I went through it with his family. You'd think they would have figured out we were old enough to know what we were doing. Then again, we were mature enough to understand that our families are concerned for our welfare. Also, I don't see anyone complaining about her making Bill happy. Concerned, not complaining. The complaints come from how she is treating everyone else. adairfletch wrote Again, how do you know it's not humor? How do you know she truly believes in the superficial? Fleur was shocked, and you don't know how you would react in that situation, unless you've experienced something similar yourself. The fact of the matter is, Molly does accept Fleur at the end, because Fleur loves Bill just as much disfigured as when he was whole. If Molly can accept it, then so should we. Lynn: How do you know it is humor? It's more in keeping with Fleur's arrogance than in any humor she's exhibited. Yes, I do know what my reaction would be and it's pretty judgmental and hypocritical to say I wouldn't as apparently you know how you'd react even though you don't have a son and have never been in Molly's place. As for Molly accepting Fleur because she sees that Fleur really does love Bill, that's what I said. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Tue Jul 26 14:35:38 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:35:38 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135011 tinglinger wrote: After reading a couple of thousand posts(yes, that many, since I have read virtually all the posts in HPFGU since right before OOP came out) saying how WONDERFUL Snape really is - how truly misunderstood he is - how pure of heart he is - how he would NEVER hurt a non-airborne fly! ---- despite all evidence in the books to the contrary despite the duplicity despite his aiding and abetting a more competent and lethal squad of death eaters entering Hogwarts - especially that loveable ol'Fennir Greyback who would like nothing more than to crunch and munch as many students as he possibly could..... {why, i'm just FEELIN' the luv for poor old misunderstood Sevvy for THAT ...} despite AKing Dumbledore (for whatever reason ? and please don't talk about assisted suicide without a foot of parchment of proof for that theory indicating how the wizarding community is best served with DD gone) despite his willingness to have the dementors suck out the souls of Lupin and Sirius without listening to their pleas despite never showing the slightest inkling to act with fairness or patience for anyone but DD or Slytherin House Students .... I now hereby challenge anyone and everyone who is under the delusion (hey, if Harry/Hermione shippers can take it, then surely the kinder and gentler Snape defenders can) that Snape is indeed misunderstood to write a canon based summary that demonstrates just how dear ol' Severus is NOT the evil betraying snivelly turd that he has demonstrated himself to be by each and every one of his actions since the series started. Colebiancardi now: I have never stated that Snape was a good-hearted man ? so your assumptions of my opinion of Snape's character are WAY OFF. I have always thought he was a nasty bastard, but he is batting for the right team. You need to relax ? You can believe your theory if you wish to, but I have one that I like better. Before I jump into it, other posters have given "clues" to my theory on why Snape deserted the DE's, became DD's trusted man and why he still is a nasty bastard to Harry. Tonks wrote: When Snape finds out that LV is going to kill James and Snape has a life debit to James, this scares Snape. There is some serious bad, bad magic that happen when you have a life debit to someone and then that person is killed because of something that you have done. It may be some sort of a cursed life, like one gets from drinking the blood of a unicorn. Roberta wrote: Incidentally, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust of Snape is between him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. This too suggests that there is more to it than Snape's repentance over betraying Harry's parents, which *is* Harry's business. Caro wrote: Then later Regulus himself discovered what Voldemort was up to and then stole the Horcrux, brought it home and went underground by feigning death. Then he could have tried to reveal himself by using this mockery for himself and pretending to be Sirius so that he will hopefully read this article. Only his brother would recognize it. Colebiancardi back again: Ok. We know that Regulus is Sirius's younger brother and that he was in the house of Slytherin, which happens to be Snape's house as well. Since it has been stressed upon the readers that your house is like your family, I am going to assume that Snape KNEW Regulus, even though he may have been a year or two younger than Snape. What else do we know? Regulus died in 1980 ? the family tree stated in OotP that Regulus died 15 years earlier, which makes in 1980, if OotP is in 1995. We also know that Snape in 1980, heard overheard the prophecy and it was a cold, wet day ? so either late winter, spring or late fall of 1980. At this time Snape was still working for LV. Since Regulus died in 1980, he was also in the DE's at that time. We do know that Snape turned and became a spy for DD sometime AFTER he heard the prophecy and BEFORE James & Lily died. He did not turn after their deaths ? so that could not have been the reason why he turned. He was already working for DD at that time. Snape became Potions Master in 1981, as in OotP, when questioned by Umbridge, we discover he has been the Potions Master for 14 years. So, what could have turned Snape sometime between 1980 and 1981? My theory: Regulus Black, if he is RAB, cannot be discounted. How did Snape become a DE if he is half-blood, as LV seems intent to have a pure-blood wizarding community? Could it be that not only was LV impressed by Snape's dark arts mastery, but that Snape had connections with two of the biggest pure-blood families in town: Malfoy ? who probably recruited Snape and the Black family. Snape probably recruited Regulus, as if he needed any encouragement. What a bonus for Snape, as Sirius is one of the people he HATES the most and here is Snape, friends with Regulus and also a fellow DE. Did Snape become a "brother figure" to Regulus? It is quite possible. And it gives Sirius another reason to hate Snape. Regulus was killed, according to Sirius, by Voldemort or more likely (in Sirius's words), another Death Eater. If RAB is Regulus, and he was killed by another DE, does that mean that Regulus was dying, due to the potion? If so, would Regulus go to the man he viewed as family, Snape, who is also an accomplished potions master? Who could have prevented his death? Did Regulus tell Snape what Voldemort was up to, with the horcruxs ? and if Snape knew of the prophecy at this time, what did Snape think of this? 3 possibilities: 1. Snape gave Regulus a potion to reverse the effects of the poison and told him to get out of dodge. Voldemort then sent a DE to dispatch of Regulus. 2. Snape does not give the cure to Regulus, but lets him die 3. Repeat Number 1 and instead of an unnamed DE, it is Snape whom Voldemort sends to kill Regulus. Regardless if it Snape or not that killed Regulus, Snape knew something horrid was coming down. Snape is not a pure-blood and now Regulus, a pure-blood, has been killed by another DE ? which cannot be a comforting thought to Snape. Snape understands clearly now what Voldemort is up too, with the prophecy & now the horcruxes, and realizes his days are numbered ? hey, I didn't say that Snape still doesn't look out for his own neck ? he is a Slytherin, after all. Snape knows the only chance for survival for himself and the world as he knows it, is to turn to Dumbledore and become a spy. We know he did this before October 31st, 1981. Snape turns his back on Voldemort & the DeathEaters because of what he sees internally within the DE camp; not any external forces outside of it. He sees that a pure-blood like Regulus can be killed and if Snape was the one who had to kill Regulus, that could have affected him in ways that showed DD that Snape was truly against Voldemort and Voldemort's plans for the wizard community and muggles. That is why Roberta's comment of "Incidentally, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust of Snape is between him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. This too suggests that there is more to it than Snape's repentance over betraying Harry's parents, which *is* Harry's business" is important to note. Even if RAB is not Regulus, the fact that he was killed by another DE is important to note. All of what I have written, with the exception of Snape knowing the horcruxes, could still play out. Now, why was Snape remorseful about James' & Lily's deaths? See Tonk's comment about Snape's life-debt to James. Why is Snape a nasty bastard to Harry? Well, DD even stated that - Snape hasn't let go of the memories of being tormented by James - and as we have found out - they did GANG up on Snape - 4 to 1. Not a very mature reason to hate Harry, but Harry looks just like James and I am sure that has to grate on Snape's nerves everytime he sees him. Now my theory may be a leaky as a sieve, but it is no more leaky than the Snape loves Lily theory ? actually, I think mine is more water- tight :) And I like mine better, as it shows that Snape left the DE's, as he began to see them for what they really were ? not just folks who liked to play with Dark Arts, but evil people who wanted to wipe out a race of people. colebiancardi (hoping that she didn't waste her 1st post and is curious if anyone else is thinking about this theory) From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 15:08:55 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:08:55 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > jlnbtr: > > > > Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, even though Hermione is very > > smart, she doesn't have the ability to think abstractly, to invent, > > create... She can't think outside the box. > > Amiable Dorsai: > Other than deducing that students were being petrified by a basilisk, > that Harry's Firebolt was most likely sent to him by Sirius Black (She > simply misunderstood his motives), that Lupin was a werewolf, and that > Rita was an Animagus. > > Not to mention realizing that there was another way to get Harry's > story out than through the Daily Prophet, and that she had the perfect > reporter to use. > > And, of course, there's her creation of Dumbledore's Army, when most > people would probably have settled for private tutoring from Harry. > > We should probably also notice her spur-of-the-moment inspiration for > preventing Umbridge from using the Cruciatus on Harry (Not a perfect > plan, but she *was* winging it.) > > Other than that, I agree, there's little evidence of creative thought > on Hermione's part. > > Amiable "Rolls eyes" Dorsai You're mixing up intelligence by being quick and witty with intelligence by the creative and innovative _application_ of base knowledge. Has Hermione demonstrated the creative and innovative application of magic principles a la Fred and George or even HBP? No. As I wrote in an earlier message, would Hermione had been able to create the polyjuice potion de novo? In other words, if the polyjuice potion never existed in the Potter-verse or if those communication coins never existed, would Hermione been able to 1. have the conceive of the idea for those things and 2. have the ability to execute that idea? My guess is no because she hasn't demonstrated that quality of knowledge application--The Weasley Twins, otoh, would in light of their joke and jinx creations. In the 3 part Rowling Interview she was asked how Fred and George figured out how to work the Marauder's Map. Rowling replied that she imagined that the Weasley's went through alot of trial and error and observing how the map reacted to their efforts. In other words, the Weasley's applied the scientific method to this suspicious piece of parchment. And in order to successfully apply the scientific method, you must dispel belief, in that you have to be open minded and willing to look outside of the box. This is where, imo, Hermione demonstrates a deficiency in abstraction and application. She stays within the confines of the conventional box and works well within it, but she doesn't venture out of it too often to show any exceptional brilliance. An exceptional person takes what's inside that box, dumps it out, mixes it up and creates an new box or an extension of the old one. Fred and George have demonstrated this; Hermione has not. In terms of deductive ability, HP isn't blatantly written like an "English cozy" mystery, so it's isn't read by the readers as one. In other words, the readers aren't generally competing with the characters to figure out 'whodunit' before the end of the book. If it was, would Hermione's "deductive" ability as highly regarded as it is? Most likely no. Hermione has nothing on Jane Marple, Brother Cadfael or Amelia Peabody. At the end of the HP books, she generally hasn't figured out 'whodunit'---it's Harry who does. Again, Hermione isn't a dummy. But she's not on the same intellectual plane as HBP and the Weasley Twins. Milz From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 15:11:40 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:11:40 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050726143620.89496.qmail@web32715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135013 Lynn, I see your points. But you seem to forget one thing: the way Fleur is acting with the Weasleys is simply Fleur's Way. She is not doing it to the Weasleys in particular. She's doing it to EVERYONE. Ever since we've known her, she's been like that. And we can guess that her own female schoolmates didn't like her very much from the way two of them reacted when she got nominated as champion: they burst in tears. Yes Fleur is arrogant, haughty, insensitive, and everything you've said. But *that's simply the way she is*, with everyone she doesn't have a particular liking to. As you've said, she's different with Harry, because she likes him in a personal way. And I'll bet she's also different with Bill. Fleur is simply one of those people who are insufferable as long as they don't have a real private relationship with you. That's the way she is, just like it's Luna's way to be the way she is, or like it's Percy's way to be the way he is. Personally, I think Fleur will change as she develops personal relationships with each member of the Weasley family. For example, I'm pretty sure she won't be disrespectful of Molly anymore, now that the two women have bonded over Bill. And I'll bet half my Galleons that the Weasleys will be surprised to discover that under the frosty cover, there's a nice and warm human being (and, I think, an extremely loyal one too), the one that seduced Bill. Del From clarivocal at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 15:12:08 2005 From: clarivocal at yahoo.com (Michal Barnea) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD and Lily's Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726151208.59945.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135014 Bob Alberti wrote: >DD says explicitly that Harry was protected by Lily's charm because >Lily deliberately chose to die. > >DD deliberately chose to die to protect his students. > >Think about it. What kind of whammy is waiting for the next person >to try AK on Draco? > >Did DD's death confer the kind of protection on Draco that Lily >conferred on Harry? > >Did it extend to Harry? > >Did it extend to all the Hogwarts students? > >Did it extend to the castle itself? i am pretty sure the way lily chose to die for harry was a very special and specific circumstance. rowling said it's never happened before in the wizarding world. dumbledore chose to make himself vulnerable to save harry, yes. but as for dying to save draco, it wasn't as though someone said, "step aside so i can kill him," and dumbledore stood in front of draco (which is what lily did for harry). i think dumbledore's death has great meaning, and has imbued harry with a new strength and resolve, but as for leaving behind a protection similary to lily's, i just don't buy it. michal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 15:24:36 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:24:36 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135015 > Milz responds: > Exactly and that's what limits her in terms of intelligence and sets > her in a different league than HBP and Fred and George. Fred and > George are able to invent new jinxes or devise things by practical > application of their magical knowledge. Even Hermione has to admit in > HBP that some of the jokes and jinxes are use a very advanced magic. > Yes, she can recognize it's advanced magic, but that's about all. zgirnius responds: Actually, she does more than that. In OotP there is the scene where F&G are demostrating the Headless Hat (or some such, hat that makes your head invisible.) Hermione observes this object, asserts that they have cleverly extended the physical range of some invisibility charm (she sepcifies which one, I do not have my copy with me...), and goes on to predict (correctly) that the effect will not be very long-lived. Sounds to me like she knows exactly what advanced magic was used, how, and can use her theoretical understanding of how this must have been done to make a correct prediction. Not regurgitation at all. I also think that if F&G had consulted her about their problem with the nosebleed nougats, they would have saved themselves weeks or months of research. (Lee Jordan eventually suggested they try essence of murtlap...which he learned of from Harry, which he knew from Hermione...) Not that she would have helped them, mind you, but it;s not becasue she lacks the *brains*. She just doesn't value it. I agree that Hermione is less *something* than Fred and George, but it's not scientific creativity she lacks. She lacks any marketing or entrepreneurial savvy. If someone convinced her that the creation of one of F&G's novelty items was worthwhile, she could come up with a way to execute the idea magically. But it would not occur to her on her own to try. She is, however, able to create new magic to meet her own needs. The prime example I would cite is also from OotP, the "Sneak Spell", if you will. This is a bit of magic that is new, and seems to involve three different sorts of spells. First, a charm or something on the piece of paper, which has the effect of creating something like a binding magical contract among the signers of the paper without their knowledge or consent. This contract/whatever, once created, has a life of its own in that it can determine if the contract is breached and apply the penalty automatically, without any further conscious effort by the caster. Finally, the penalty itself is a jinx. We do not know the name of this jinx, and I assert that is because the jinx *has* no name, it is Hermione's own invention. Why? Well, possibly Dolores does not have the savvy to counter any known jinx, but would you want to bet Marietta did not visit St. Mungo's over the summer? They couldn't help her either. Hence, I claim there is evidence to suppose this was a novel and potent jinx. Note also that jinxes and hexes are studied in DADA, which is Hermione's weakest subject. (Actually, I don't believe this is so. I would bet the E in DADA was the result of a flubbed practical. The practical does not ask for creativity, but steady nerves help...this *is* an area of weakness for Hermione.) Milz responds: > Hermione's examination of the book was merely a spell. However, it > would have shown a more `answer seeking' side of her if she had indeed > tried to figure out why HBP notations worked. But we don't get that > from her. Instead we get the "follow the rules, if it's not in the > official version, the information isn't valid" attitude---- zgirnius: The spell was not about the contents of the book, but its nature, I imagine. After SS, Hermione was naturally suspicious. I think Hermione was concerned the book might be more than just a book. The spell was to ascertain that no, it was *just* a book with some notes in it. I think she did not want to investigate the book further for the same reason posited by another poster, ie ego. Also, it's Harry's book and he certainly has no interest in figuring out why it works. > Milz responds: > Way back in PS/SS, Rowling > teaches us the use of a bezoar. Does Hermione retain that > information? No. A person who "really knows their stuff" will be able > to recall small details like that and apply that knowledge. zgirnius: She certainly still knows what a bezoar is, she even knows when she learned about it (Snape's first lesson). (SHe points out to Harry he did not need the HBP to tell him this-he *should* have already learned it from Snape). In the antidote lesson, she was not pressed for time to save someone's life-she was engaged in practicing the application of Golpalott's third law to the creation of antidotes for mixed potions. A skill that is not useless, a bezoar does not save one from *all* poisons. Slughorn (justifiably) gave Harry the benefit of the doubt in that class, but this does not make Hermione's solution *wrong*, or even uncreative. > Michal: > as for the fact that she seemed to struggle a bit in the advanced > potions class, i can speak to that. zgirnius: There are *two* big differences between Sluggie and Snape as Potions teachers. Sluggie is much more pleasant, of course, but he also teaches straight out of the textbook-students look up, and then perform, the potions. Remember how Snape did it? He was always writing the instructions out on the board. Now that we know who the HBP *is*, well, maybe Hermione is "struggling" (ha! she's easily the second best student) because she is accustomed to receiving better potions instructions... But I really think how Hermione does in Potions, amd what opinion Snape has of her, is beside the point. She is always taking a large number of classes, and Potions is not a favorite. To really judge Hermione I am afraid we would want to know what she is doing in her Arithmancy classes, and how Professor Vector views her abilities. (PoA, her stated preference. It is her most difficult class, but also the most interesting.) From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 15:26:13 2005 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:26:13 -0000 Subject: Who does DD have in hiding? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135016 Toward the end of HBP Dumbledore tells Draco he doesn't have to kill him. There are ways to hide him and make it look like he is dead. Obviously, we've already seen this done in the case of Wormtail, but I don't think Dumbledore is planning that kind of existence for Draco. So, what does he have in mind? And maybe ore importantly, who else has he hidden, and are they still in hiding? Some far-fetched possibilities: The Prewett brothers (Fabian and Gideon) - we have been told they were killed, but were they? We saw something in the MOM at the end of OOtP that turned one of the Death Eaters into a baby. Not wuite in hiding, but could something similar been done to these twins? If their parents had been killed, who would be left to raise them? Their sister perhaps? They would have to be brought up as her own children, and most of her other children would be old enough to remember them joining the family. Molly might be disappointed in their OWL grades, but would know they were strong wizards. Lily's parents? Or perhaps one of her parents, who then married a muggle? We know they are now dead (or did they go into hiding a second time?). Something fishy happened with that family - why were her parents so excited to have a witch in the family? Had her father been in Azkaban at some point? Is that why Petunia knew about the dementors? Did they feign his death, and then request to bury him away from the prison - then hide him in the muggle world? If that is what happened, it would explain Petunia's fear of the wizarding world - if somebody found out, and there was some reason her whole family was targeted, she would again be in danger. If Mr Evans was in hiding, who was he? I know it's a big stretch, but Evans spelled backwards is Snave - really close to SNAPE. I know, Snape's father was a Muggle, but it's a strange coincidence. From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 15:33:33 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:33:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who does DD have in hiding? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005101c591f7$63405fc0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135017 Meltowne wondered about who Dumbledore could have hidden: Lily's parents? Or perhaps one of her parents, who then married a muggle? We know they are now dead (or did they go into hiding a second time?). Something fishy happened with that family - why were her parents so excited to have a witch in the family? Had her father been in Azkaban at some point? Is that why Petunia knew about the dementors? Did they feign his death, and then request to bury him away from the prison - then hide him in the muggle world? If that is what happened, it would explain Petunia's fear of the wizarding world - if somebody found out, and there was some reason her whole family was targeted, she would again be in danger. If Mr Evans was in hiding, who was he? I know it's a big stretch, but Evans spelled backwards is Snave - really close to SNAPE. I know, Snape's father was a Muggle, but it's a strange coincidence. Sherry now: In her recent TLC and Muggle Net interview, JKR said there is no back story to Harry's grandparents on either side. She said she wanted Harry to be alone, to have no family, so they had to be dead before the start of the series. I can't remember the whole thing, but I believe she said James' parents were older, and Lily's parents died, but I forget how. The main point was that they aren't anything important to the story. Sherry From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 15:59:08 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:59:08 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > > > Milz responds: > > Exactly and that's what limits her in terms of intelligence and sets > > her in a different league than HBP and Fred and George. Fred and > > George are able to invent new jinxes or devise things by practical > > application of their magical knowledge. Even Hermione has to admit > in > > HBP that some of the jokes and jinxes are use a very advanced magic. > > Yes, she can recognize it's advanced magic, but that's about all. > > zgirnius responds: > Actually, she does more than that. In OotP there is the scene where > F&G are demostrating the Headless Hat (or some such, hat that makes > your head invisible.) Hermione observes this object, asserts that > they have cleverly extended the physical range of some invisibility > charm (she sepcifies which one, I do not have my copy with me...), > and goes on to predict (correctly) that the effect will not be very > long-lived. Sounds to me like she knows exactly what advanced magic > was used, how, and can use her theoretical understanding of how this > must have been done to make a correct prediction. Knowing how something is done after seeing an example of it is very different from creating something de novo. What Fred and George do-- manipulating and altering jinxes and hexes to get certain results is very different from looking at an end product and speculating how it works. >Not regurgitation > at all. I also think that if F&G had consulted her about their > problem with the nosebleed nougats, they would have saved themselves > weeks or months of research. (Lee Jordan eventually suggested they > try essence of murtlap...which he learned of from Harry, which he > knew from Hermione...) Not that she would have helped them, mind you, > but it;s not becasue she lacks the *brains*. She just doesn't value > it. > Never said Hermione lacks intelligence. I've stated that she's not on the same plane of intellect as HBP or Fred and George. But you bring up another problem with Hermione: she allows her biases to get in the way of the advancement. Again, this is an example of not thinking outside of the box. In terms of research and innovation, if you stay within the confines of that box, you limit yourself and your research. In other words, stagnation. And stagnation is contrary to advancement. That's why she isn't on the same intellectual plane as the Weasley Twins or HBP. She doesn't push the boundaries: she stays well within them. There's nothing wrong with that. History celebrates the innovators and creators---those who dared to push the boundaries of the accepted---and calls them "the greats of" their fields. > I agree that Hermione is less *something* than Fred and George, but > it's not scientific creativity she lacks. She lacks any marketing or > entrepreneurial savvy. If someone convinced her that the creation of > one of F&G's novelty items was worthwhile, she could come up with a > way to execute the idea magically. But it would not occur to her on > her own to try. > You can't make that kind of assumption. Because she does lack scientific creativity. Again, knowing her actions in the books (not our biased interpretations of it), would Hermione have been able to create the polyjuice potion if it never existed in the HP world? Probably not, because she hasn't demonstrated that she can extrapolate and apply knowledge pragmatically. > She is, however, able to create new magic to meet her own needs. The > prime example I would cite is also from OotP, the "Sneak Spell", if > you will. This is a bit of magic that is new, and seems to involve > three different sorts of spells. First, a charm or something on the > piece of paper, which has the effect of creating something like a > binding magical contract among the signers of the paper without their > knowledge or consent. This contract/whatever, once created, has a > life of its own in that it can determine if the contract is breached > and apply the penalty automatically, without any further conscious > effort by the caster. Finally, the penalty itself is a jinx. We do > not know the name of this jinx, and I assert that is because the jinx > *has* no name, it is Hermione's own invention. Why? Well, possibly > Dolores does not have the savvy to counter any known jinx, but would > you want to bet Marietta did not visit St. Mungo's over the summer? > They couldn't help her either. Hence, I claim there is evidence to > suppose this was a novel and potent jinx. Note also that jinxes and > hexes are studied in DADA, which is Hermione's weakest subject. > (Actually, I don't believe this is so. I would bet the E in DADA was > the result of a flubbed practical. The practical does not ask for > creativity, but steady nerves help...this *is* an area of weakness > for Hermione.) > Alot of assumptions there. Until Rowling says "Hermione devised the Sneak Spell", we can only base her actions on what we know of Hermione from PS/SS to OoP: 1. she reads alot. 2. she studies alot. 3. she's a walking encyclopedia. 4. she hasn't demonstrated any aptitude for development of de novo spells, hexes, jinxes, etc. > Milz responds: > > Hermione's examination of the book was merely a spell. However, it > > would have shown a more `answer seeking' side of her if she had > indeed > > tried to figure out why HBP notations worked. But we don't get that > > from her. Instead we get the "follow the rules, if it's not in the > > official version, the information isn't valid" attitude---- > > zgirnius: > The spell was not about the contents of the book, but its nature, I > imagine. After SS, Hermione was naturally suspicious. I think > Hermione was concerned the book might be more than just a book. The > spell was to ascertain that no, it was *just* a book with some notes > in it. > My point is that it's a superficial examination that relied on magic, not observation and study (ie: brain power). Did Hermione pick up the book and look through it to see signs of ownership? No. Did she read through the notes or a sampling of the notes to see if anything in there was potentially harmful? No. And if she had done this, it would have given Rowling the opportunity to show that Hermione can pragmatically apply her booksmarts. > I think she did not want to investigate the book further for the same > reason posited by another poster, ie ego. Also, it's Harry's book and > he certainly has no interest in figuring out why it works. > I think she didn't want to investigate the book because it would have ended the book about 200 pages sooner. But the point remains, this shows a lack of curiousity, which is a critical quality in those who are truly innovative and creative. > > Milz responds: > > Way back in PS/SS, Rowling > > teaches us the use of a bezoar. Does Hermione retain that > > information? No. A person who "really knows their stuff" will be > able > > to recall small details like that and apply that knowledge. > > zgirnius: > She certainly still knows what a bezoar is, she even knows when she > learned about it (Snape's first lesson). (SHe points out to Harry he > did not need the HBP to tell him this-he *should* have already > learned it from Snape). In the antidote lesson, she was not pressed > for time to save someone's life-she was engaged in practicing the > application of Golpalott's third law to the creation of antidotes for > mixed potions. A skill that is not useless, a bezoar does not save > one from *all* poisons. Slughorn (justifiably) gave Harry the benefit > of the doubt in that class, but this does not make Hermione's > solution *wrong*, or even uncreative. > But she neglects the bezoar nonetheless. She takes it out of her possibilities, which is something that isn't done by people who are truly innovative and creative. Because once limitations are imposed, the creative process stops. And that is why she isn't on the same intellectual plane as the Weasley Twins, HBP and muggles like Issac Newton, Linus Pauling, Thomas Edison, etc. Again, no one is arguing that Hermione is as dumb as a rock. However, she hasn't shown the brilliance of an Edison, or a Newton, or a Pauling, or a Pascal or a Weasley twin. Milz From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 26 14:52:36 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:52:36 -0000 Subject: How do the Horcruxes work? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > First - appologies if this has already been asked and attempted > answered. In that case I'd be happy to be directed to where to find them. > > Voldemort creates his 6 Horcruxes and keeps the 1/7 part of his soul.Voldemort is hit by the backfiring AK/spell/whatever and loses his body but keeps that 1/7 soul, right? > > Voldemort wants immortality. But what happens if he's AK'd and loses that part of his soul which is presently inside him? He has 6/7 soulparts hidden in Horcruxes - but how to get hold of one of these soulparts and get it inside him? > > What to do when all 7 soulparts have been used up? Is that the end of Voldemort? If so - he's not immortal - he just has 7 lives - 7 and no more. > > Or did I get the idea about Horcruxes all wrong? > > Inge Hokus now: There's actually some debate about how the horcruxes work to "anchor the soul", and how they're destroyed, since we aren't explicitly given an explanation of this is HBP. Someone (sorry I can't remember the post name, poster name, OR message number =P) mused that if the soul pieces in the horcruxes bind a persons soul to the earthly plane, do they also bind each other by the same magic? I'm inclined to think no, as DD didn't mention any such line of thinking when he pronounced the diary and ring horcruxes eradicated. He seemed certain, but then again, he seemed certain of Snape, too. I also don't think horcruxes are "used up", like lives in a video game. Each horcrux serves as an "anchor" point for the main soul - i.e., the one encapsulated in the persons body. I'm uncertain if having more makes the anchor stronger, or just harder to destroy, though I'm thinking the latter is more likely. So basically, Harry has to make sure all the anchors are destroyed first, then he can send the remaining bit of Voldemort's soul, the one inside LV himself, to the other side of the veil. Of course, how exactly all of this plays out is anyone's guess right now, and this is all speculation on my part, but it's how the whole horcrux thing read to me. Hokus From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 15:23:55 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:23:55 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... (Hermione and Multiple Intelligences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135020 As far as Hermione's "stagnating intelligence", Del says : So, I'm still not convinced. Schumar's response: Neither am I. First of all, every single one of Del's reasons for showing Hermione IS a clever and extraordinary witch who can think outside of the box are true. I want to add about how Hermione got the idea to have Harry teach the DA group (something that Hermione planned and organized all on her own) ... she valued what Harry taught them so much that she was even able to show Harry how what Snape was saying related to what Harry taught. And let's look at Hermione's giftedness and the some of multiple intelligences, as outlined by Howard Gardner. Linguistic Intelligence -- Hermione does indeed show a sensitivity to written and spoken language and she uses books and language to accomplish her goals. It is clear that she is the best writer of the trio, as she has always been editing their written homework. She even thought outside the box in HBP to look up students with the name Prince in the library. She must have extraordinary intelligence in this and the next area to be able to come up with a jinx that no one can counter. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence - Hermione is the only one of the three that has continued with the mathematical magic classes, particularly Arithmency. Of course, we have seen her use and value logic back since PS/SS... how she was impressed with Snape's potions protection of the stone (logic being something many wizards lack), and she used logic in working out how the basilisk was able to get to its victims (the pipes). Although she hasn't gotten nearly the results Harry has with the help of the HBP, Hermione is smart enough to get farther on everything than anyone else in the class. Interpersonal Intelligence - I don't necessarily think this her greatest strength but she does some things well. She gets the Harry/Cho and even the Ginny/Harry relationships spot on... but she doesn't understand that Hogwarts' house elves really don't want to be free or that Harry really has a reason to worry about Malfoy. I think that Hermione does show Intrapersonal intelligence and understands herself and her feelings, but she recognizes that Ron is not there yet. And yes, bright girls like Hermione do act foolishly at times. Speaking of House Elves, another aspect of giftedness is having Social Intelligence, and working to understand what's going on in the world (as she clearly did with being the only one who read Hogwarts, A History) and improve the conditions of others. She even stated how she would like to do something more with S.P.E.W. after Hogwarts. So, yes, there are other intelligences that Hermione doesn't necessarily have great strengths in, namely Bodily-Kinesthetic, and though she is clearly good at the Naturalistic areas, Care of Magical Creatures and Herbology (both of which she received "O" O.W.L.s) -- she doesn't seem to have as much interest in them as she does in the more Logic/ Mathematical areas. Now it gets personal for me. I am an educator of Gifted/Talented youth, and my job is looking for and developing these talents in others. It is clear to me that Hermione posesses the above average ability and -- perhaps most importantly -- the creativity and the commitment to task -- that prove she is truly a Gifted Witch. Even if she's not as good at Potions as Snape was, there is nothing tangible that I can see to really suggest her inteligence is waning. Marianne S. From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue Jul 26 15:39:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:39:56 -0000 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135021 You know, reading Remus in HBP puts me in the very uncomfortable position of having sympathy for Snape's viewpoint. I'm thinking especially of his speech to Harry over Christmas (the one written in nineteenth-century prose). Sigh. I'm going to have to readily admit that two of my dearest male friends in the course of my life have been very like Remus, and I therefore have a very complicated reaction to characters like that. They are lovable and admirable -- to a point. But my own experiences have taught me, much to my regret, how thin a line separates their virtues from being flaws. They are scrupulously fair, reasonable, and patient. Unfortunately those qualities can shade swiftly into indecisiveness, passivity, and (to use a very loaded word) out and out weakness. I think Remus at the Xmas celebration is operating very close to the dividing line, and sometimes steps over it. My response to his statement "I neither like nor dislike Severus Snape" was a snort followed by "Yeah, now tell me the one about the tooth fairy." His statements "You are determined to hate him... And I understand" garnered the response from me, "Okay, I'm very impressed. Now get your rear off the fence and join the rest of us in a world where we have to take sides, get our hands dirty, and put up with the consequences. It won't kill your furry rear end if somebody actually gets mad and doesn't like you." Sigh. Much as I hate to admit it, I have to say, after that speech of Remus at Christmas I thought back to Severus comment about Tonks' new patronus looking weak and thought "You know, you're a jerk and a fool, Sevvie ol' buddy, but to quote Ricky Ricardo, you might got something there." Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 16:07:50 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:07:50 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050726143620.89496.qmail@web32715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135022 My, this has been one very interesting debate. Very interesting indeed. At least it is about something other than Snape!! I am glad that I don't have a son. I can just imagine how hard it must be for a mother to find any woman that her son would bring home good enough for him. And I know the same goes for fathers and their daughter's boyfriends. I can feel Molly's pain when she has to endure Fleur for the summer. And given Fleur's behaviors I can see where Molly would think that Fleur would no longer love Bill now that he is not handsome any longer. I agree 100% with everything that Lynn has said, I do see Fleur as rude, arrogant and disrespectful. I especially do not like the way that she treated Molly. Frankly she is in many ways in the same category as the Dursleys as far as the degree of unacceptable behavior goes. She is a physically beautiful woman, but she is not a beautiful person. At least not until the scene at Bill's bedside. I tended to forget all of the rest after that. Before this, I have always looked at her as an airhead, and a little like Paris Hilton, but not quite as bad. (No one could be that bad, I really hate Paris Hilton!!) Fleur is just another tall, perfect looking blond, vain and shallow and judgmental towards anyone who is not just as vain and shallow as her. I am sure that many families must put up with someone that one member loves, but that is difficult for the others to deal with. Pity really. Life is too short to have to cope with such things, but many people do. I love Molly and Arthur and anyone that treats them poorly is not on my list of good people. Except Percy, he is their son and can be forgiven. So I am judgmental too, just in a different way than Fleur. I am hoping now that the tension between the women is broken maybe Fleur can let go of some of her superficiality and be more of the person she let us see there at Bill's bedside. And I hope that this carries over in the years to come. Will she still feel that way 10 years from now? I hope so. And I hope she starts treating Molly better too. After all if Bill's family are to say "Bill loves her so we should except that and treat her well", well Bill loves his mother too!!, so Fleur needs to say the same thing to herself about Molly. Tonks_op From jjjjjulie at aol.com Tue Jul 26 16:08:43 2005 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:08:43 -0000 Subject: Who does DD have in hiding? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > Toward the end of HBP Dumbledore tells Draco he doesn't have to kill > him. There are ways to hide him and make it look like he is dead. > > Obviously, we've already seen this done in the case of Wormtail, but > I don't think Dumbledore is planning that kind of existence for > Draco. So, what does he have in mind? And maybe ore importantly, > who else has he hidden, and are they still in hiding?ange coincidence. But the hiding Wormtail went into and the hiding DD is talking about are, IMO, completely different cases without any area for parallel to be drawn. I believe that that comment was meant to foreshadow DD's death and to open lines of speculation as to how he may still be alive (even though I do think he is really dead). jujube From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 16:11:09 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:11:09 EDT Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I Message-ID: <1a1.386bca41.3017ba9d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135024 CathyD writes: The whole problem, here, in Slughorns potions class, is that somebody is getting more credit than Hermione. She's not 'the best' anymore, whether her potion is textbook perfect or not. Harry is getting all the glory when his is as well. Julie says: I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but there is one factor in Harry's "besting" Hermoine in Potions class that must stick in her craw. Harry is basically cheating. If Harry suddenly developed a real talent for Potions, and was regularly beating Hermoine, I think Hermoine would be a bit jealous but she would certainly acknowledge Harry's abilities and effort (as she does with other things like DADA). Instead she's watching Harry being fawned over by Slughorn for work that isn't *his,* but that of someone he's copying from, the HBP. And, yes, I know Hermoine's "copying" from the textbook itself in a sense, but Harry is still taking credit for his sudden brilliance at Potions, as if he is coming up with better alternatives to the textbook on is own and deserves all the praise. If he was being completely above board, he'd tell Slughorn about the notes in his textbook, but that would spoil his newfound glory. I think that's Hermoine's real beef, along with the fact that she's worried that using the notes of an unidentified person could come back to bite Harry in the butt. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 26 16:22:36 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:22:36 -0400 Subject: destroying the horcruxes /Re How do the Horcruxes work?/Re: magic late in life Message-ID: <006701c591fe$3cc01870$6b90d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135025 >>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" >>drjuliehoward at y...> wrote: >> Unless, of course, Harry is the only one that CAN destroy >>horcruxes. > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" >wrote > I do like the idea you have about Harry being the only one who CAN > destroy them. Karen said: Yes. For "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" read "The one with the power to destroy the Horcruxes" As no harm whatsoever came to Harry when he destroyed the diary, maybe he can destroy them without their being able to destroy him.". I have to disagree. Most of the horcruxes would have been made before the prophecy ever came along. The diary was and I imagine the ring and locket and cup were, as well. The last one, the one DD believes resides in Nagini, is one that we know came after. That no harm came to Harry when he destroyed the diary, I think, is because LV/Riddle designed the diary to be used to re-open the chamber. Afterwards, he made it into a horcrux as well. That's just my take on it. He made the diary at the end of his fifth year at Hogwarts, after all the COS events were finished. That summer he killed his father and grandparents and made the diary into a Horcrux. It was his 16-year-old self in there. He still, above all else, wanted the diary to be able to be used...so that his bit of soul could get into the person who was opening the Chamber....how very close Ginny was..... >From JKR's FAQ. "In 'Chamber of Secrets', what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary? I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably." ******************* Inge asked: "Voldemort wants immortality. But what happens if he's AK'd and loses that part of his soul which is presently inside him? He has 6/7 soulparts hidden in Horcruxes - but how to get hold of one of these soulparts and get it inside him?" The soul inside the current LV cannot be destroyed as long as any of the other 6 horcruxes exist. That was the point of making them. He doesn't want to get ahold of the horcruxes. They, being hidden away (in the cave, in the rubble of the Gaunt house) are what is keeping him alive. As long as 1 remains, the walking-talking LV can't be killed. JMO. ***************** azriona said: "But wouldn't it have been unused, since as Harry didn't die, Voldy didn't make the horcrux, and the object then was either stored in some DE's home, or left in Godric's Hollow?" If there is in fact one in the cottage at Goderic's Hollow (let's leave Dung out of this for now), it would have been the one LV had intended to use for his sixth and final horcrux. Yes, it would be unused, but I think if the Trio find it, it will lead them to know what the fifth one is...the one that is something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's. ******************* CathyD said: > "Do you really think 18 is *late in life*? DD said something along the lines of Merope's magic being not what it should be while she was tormented and tortured by her father and brother. It didn't show in the best light. Something along those lines. (Sorry, I hate not being able to quote but my book isn't handy.) I think she was a witch all along, she was just so cowed and frightened by her father and her brother, everything she did went wrong. Marvolo was calling her a Squib as even more torment". azriona again: "Yeah, actually, I do think 18 is late in life - when you're talking about a society where children start showing magic at the age of three and four, and if by eight you haven't shown it, you get dropped out of a window by your great-uncle. (Neville being case in point.) Maybe 18 isn't that old for us, but I think 18 would be pretty much past the age of being able to do anything about it for them." " 'I think you are forgetting,' said Dumbledore, 'that Merope was a witch. I do not believe that her magical powers appeared to their best advantage when she was being terrorized by her father. Once Marvolo and Mofin were safely in Azkaban, once she was alone and free for the first time in her life, then, I am sure, she was able to give full rein to her abilites and to plot her escape from the desperate life she had led for eighteen years.' " DD never considers her a Squib but a Witch. At that moment we see her, she has not only been terrorized for years, but she knows why Ogden is there, knows what her brother did, and knows her father is about to find out. No wonder she shot the pot across the room instead of Wingardiam Leviosa-ing it to the stove. The quote for magic late in life from JKR is: Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? A: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. It sounds to me, and I'm sure we've discussed this on list quite a while back, that this is a one-off situation. I don't think Merope's situation can be considered 'desperate circumstances' as once her father and brother were out of the picture she could have just split. (I thought DD's 'safely in Azkaban' quite funny. Safe? Being guarded by Dementors?) I think we're yet to see someone - Filch, Figg or Petunia Dursley - grab a wand and cast a spell to protect someone. (Protect Dudley from a 17 year old Ron? Filch protecting Mrs. Norris?) Something absolutely desperate. IMO, JKR's 'quite late' indicates someone more like Filch or Figg. Again, JMO. CathyD TrentonON [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 26 16:26:45 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:26:45 -0400 Subject: I'm Confused Message-ID: <007001c591fe$d0df6830$6b90d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135026 And I don't need any one of you to say 'what else is new." Re-reading all different passages as we all seem to be right now, I read, in OP that the eavesdropper was "detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building." (pg 743 Can Ed) Yet, when Trelawney is telling the story, "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs." (HBP 509 Can Ed). What gives? CathyD DuffyPoo - who knows this is 4 and I'm stopping, now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Tue Jul 26 16:27:43 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:27:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135027 >Snapeophile: >My question is: Why did Ron ask Lavender out? It seems >incomprehensible to me that after five years of liking (loving) >Hermione, he decides to date Lavender! I was really shocked! Why do >you think he did it? Anger over Hemione kissing Krum two years ago? >Ginny's taunts about his inexperiance? If he wanted experiance, why >not ask Hermione out? I just don't understand what was up with him. > >Snapeophile I think this goes under the category of teenage angst. First of all, Ron has never acknowledged to himself that he likes Hermione. Witness the argument with her after the ball in GOF. Second, he finds out that Hermione probably was kissing Krum and that Ginny thinks he is backward and inexperienced. To get back at both of them, he asks Lavender out. Lavender isn't really a threat to him. If she doesn't like him back, his self-image isn't hurt. He doesn't have to deny his liking for her, as he really DOESN'T like her especially. It feeds his ego to have someone liking him and wanting to kiss him - until he finally realizes that he really doesn't LIKE her and he finds out that Hermione might not be quite so scary after all. She might actually like him back. It was safe to go out with Lavendar, as his ego wasn't at risk. It is much more dangerous to fall in love with Hermione, because he has much more to lose. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 16:39:36 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:39:36 EDT Subject: Clues Convergent Redux Message-ID: <7e.6e361b56.3017c148@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135028 tinglinger wrote: After reading a couple of thousand posts(yes, that many, since I have read virtually all the posts in HPFGU since right before OOP came out) saying how WONDERFUL Snape really is - J- I can't recall anyone saying that. On the side of good or evil, Snape is a bitter, angry, often mean git who, if he does prove to be DD's man, will have barely redeemed himself for all the bad decisions he's made in his life. And if he dies DD's man, no one will actually mourn his passing, even while acknowledging his part in bringing down Voldemort. In sum, even with redemption, Snape's led a lonely and embittered life, which is a bit sad. how truly misunderstood he is - J- Of course he's misunderstood, either by Voldemort, or DD, or Harry. No one yet knows the real Snape, including the readers, so no one understands him. how pure of heart he is - J--No one has ever come close to saying this. how he would NEVER hurt a non-airborne fly! ---- J--Or this. despite all evidence in the books to the contrary J--We've also seen a lot of conflicting evidence, which can't be fully evaluated until we know more. despite the duplicity J--I don't think anyone has denied Snape is duplicitous. It's just not clear who is his major victim--DD or Voldemort. despite his aiding and abetting a more competent and lethal squad of death eaters entering Hogwarts - especially that loveable ol'Fennir Greyback who would like nothing more than to crunch and munch as many students as he possibly could..... {why, i'm just FEELIN' the luv for poor old misunderstood Sevvy for THAT ...} J--Er, I don't recall Snape aiding the DEs entering Hogwarts. I thought Draco did that on his own. Snape just reacted once they arrived. Or did I miss something? despite AKing Dumbledore (for whatever reason ? and please don't talk about assisted suicide without a foot of parchment of proof for that theory indicating how the wizarding community is best served with DD gone) J--Um, aren't we allowed to talk about whatever we want here, as long as it involves the HP books? No one has a foot of parchment as proof of *any* theory, or they wouldn't be "theories." despite his willingness to have the dementors suck out the souls of Lupin and Sirius without listening to their pleas J--Snape was motivated by his hatred here, I agree. He wasn't interested in explanations, just in being proved right. This doesn't in any way prove ESE!Snape however, just BlindedbyBitterness!Snape. despite never showing the slightest inkling to act with fairness or patience for anyone but DD or Slytherin House Students .... J--Actually, he gave fair grades in Potions, AFAWK, even to students he didn't like. Hermoine for instance. I now hereby challenge anyone and everyone who is under the delusion (hey, if Harry/Hermione shippers can take it, then surely the kinder and gentler Snape defenders can) that Snape is indeed misunderstood to write a canon based summary that demonstrates just how dear ol' Severus is NOT the evil betraying snivelly turd that he has demonstrated himself to be by each and every one of his actions since the series started J--Canon-based summaries on why Snape might not be ESE but DD's man have been written over the past few weeks. The points and inconsistencies have been laid out. We are all free to plug in those inconsistencies however we each feel they best fit. Clearly we won't all be correct--only JKR knows how it all really fits together--but we can at least respect each other enough to allow divergent theories without condemning the posters we don't agree with, can't we? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 16:42:04 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:42:04 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135029 IMO, this is what is so brilliant about JKR's writing. She gives us many observations, behaviors, actions, but she does not give us the motive, what actually motivates the characters to do what was observed, until that knowledge suits /her/ purpose in the books. This is what provides the furtile ground for these discussions and debates. In turn, all of these debates leaves us eagerly anticipating the "truth." What brilliant marketing! I thought we could start a list of observations that we have made for which there is no canon evidence as yet for motive. Anyone care to join? -Julie 1. Why did Snape kill DD? 2. Why did DD trust Snape? 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 16:44:14 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:44:14 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... (Hermione and Multiple Intelligences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Schumar1999" wrote: > As far as Hermione's "stagnating intelligence", Del says : > So, I'm still not convinced. > > Schumar's response: Neither am I. > > First of all, every single one of Del's reasons for showing Hermione IS a clever and > extraordinary witch who can think outside of the box are true. I want to add about how > Hermione got the idea to have Harry teach the DA group (something that Hermione > planned and organized all on her own) ... she valued what Harry taught them so much that > she was even able to show Harry how what Snape was saying related to what Harry taught. > > And let's look at Hermione's giftedness and the some of multiple intelligences, as outlined > by Howard Gardner. > > Linguistic Intelligence -- Hermione does indeed show a sensitivity to written and spoken > language and she uses books and language to accomplish her goals. It is clear that she is > the best writer of the trio, as she has always been editing their written homework. She > even thought outside the box in HBP to look up students with the name Prince in the > library. She must have extraordinary intelligence in this and the next area to be able to > come up with a jinx that no one can counter. > > Logical-Mathematical Intelligence - Hermione is the only one of the three that has > continued with the mathematical magic classes, particularly Arithmency. Of course, we > have seen her use and value logic back since PS/SS... how she was impressed with Snape's > potions protection of the stone (logic being something many wizards lack), and she used > logic in working out how the basilisk was able to get to its victims (the pipes). Although > she hasn't gotten nearly the results Harry has with the help of the HBP, Hermione is smart > enough to get farther on everything than anyone else in the class. > > Interpersonal Intelligence - I don't necessarily think this her greatest strength but she > does some things well. She gets the Harry/Cho and even the Ginny/Harry relationships > spot on... but she doesn't understand that Hogwarts' house elves really don't want to be > free or that Harry really has a reason to worry about Malfoy. I think that Hermione does > show Intrapersonal intelligence and understands herself and her feelings, but she > recognizes that Ron is not there yet. And yes, bright girls like Hermione do act foolishly at > times. > > Speaking of House Elves, another aspect of giftedness is having Social Intelligence, and > working to understand what's going on in the world (as she clearly did with being the only > one who read Hogwarts, A History) and improve the conditions of others. She even stated > how she would like to do something more with S.P.E.W. after Hogwarts. > > So, yes, there are other intelligences that Hermione doesn't necessarily have great > strengths in, namely Bodily-Kinesthetic, and though she is clearly good at the Naturalistic > areas, Care of Magical Creatures and Herbology (both of which she received "O" O.W.L.s) > -- she doesn't seem to have as much interest in them as she does in the more Logic/ > Mathematical areas. > > Now it gets personal for me. I am an educator of Gifted/Talented youth, and my job is > looking for and developing these talents in others. It is clear to me that Hermione > posesses the above average ability and -- perhaps most importantly - - the creativity and > the commitment to task -- that prove she is truly a Gifted Witch. Even if she's not as good > at Potions as Snape was, there is nothing tangible that I can see to really suggest her > inteligence is waning. Again, if the polyjuice potion did not exist in the HP universe, would she have been able to conceive of that idea and would she be able to execute it? My guess is no, because she hasn't demonstrated the qualities needed to do that, including but not limited to: 1. She doesn't think outside of the box. She limits herself to the safe confines of convention and does very well within those confines. 2. She lacks the critical temerity to apply her knowledge outside of the box, unlike the Weasley twins. When limitations are imposed, creativity and innovation stagnates. All the innovations and discoveries are because someone somewhere thought one day "what would happen if" and actually set out to do it. They didn't cower in a corner and think "Because page 354 of The Textbook of Everything says it's not possible to do, I'd better not waste my time." That attitude and that lack of critical thinking only leads to intellectual stagnation. Milz From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 16:52:13 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726165213.60341.qmail@web32709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135031 delwynmarch wrote: I see your points. But you seem to forget one thing: the way Fleur is acting with the Weasleys is simply Fleur's Way. She is not doing it to the Weasleys in particular. She's doing it to EVERYONE. Lynn: Oh, I'm not forgetting this is Fleur's way at all. That is, in essence what I was trying to point out; that this is Fleur's behavior and is not prompted by others. Some of her traits are very obvious when she just assumes that she and Harry have this close personal relationship when it appears Harry hasn't given her any thought. I don't think he considers Fleur a close personal friend. My problem is that Ginny, Hermione and Molly are being disparaged by not just automatically accepting being treated badly and, more importantly, being blamed for what is Fleur's normally bad behavior. I fail to understand why there are people who think it is okay to treat people the way Fleur does and that others should just accept it. Yes, you can put with with some of her behavior even if you don't like it. She's vain and self-centered, so what. That doesn't hurt anyone. When the bahavior is insulting or demeaning, I draw the line at saying people should just put up with it as that is damaging behavior. Just because other people put up with Fleur doesn't mean they have to or should have to. To expect them to isn't fair to them and it isn't fair to Fleur. Someone said Ginny needed to be taken down a peg or eight and yet I think it's Fleur who needs the wake-up call of how she is perceived by other people. While I realize some things will never change, it is just her personality, if Fleur doesn't learn basic manners, she and Bill are going to be very lonely. This isn't a couple I'd want to invite into my home or accept an invitation to their home if I'll have to endure an evening of listening to how inferior I/family/friends are. Not a pleasant evening. It isn't fair to Fleur to just let her go on her merry way alienating people and, if Bill was in a corporate environment, he could say good-bye to any promotions when Fleur ends up alienating the boss's wife. Of course, goblins may not have the same sensibilities so it may not matter in this case but that's not to say Bill will always work for Gringotts. As I said, I blame Bill for not stepping in. It's his job to help integrate Fleur into his family and one way is to explain to her the basic manners followed in his parents home and to point out certain traditions that, while perhaps not enjoyable to all, they tolerate out of respect. To not do that isn't fair to Fleur or his family. If she chooses not to follow those basic manners, it doesn't say much about her love for Bill. If she loves him so much, shouldn't she be trying to get along with his family? When it comes to manners, part of it may be cultural. Coming from two very different cultures, my husband and I needed to run interefence so that misunderstandings didn't occur. Both sides made allowances for the differences in culture but that was because there was someone in the middle to bridge the gap - Bill's job. Both sides also had to make allowances for personality. I can tell you that until it was explained that the behavior wasn't personal, it was personal. (Believe me, when you have someone tell you that you are so fat you must be having twins, it feels personal. Thank goodness I was really pregnant at the time. LOL) The Weasley's don't know that this is Fleur's normal behavior so it can be taken very personally. Again, this is Bill's job. Yes, I agree that Fleur and Molly will probably now have the personal relationship which will change how Fleur treats Molly. It's just too bad that Fleur didn't care enough to try to have that personal relationship before Bill got hurt. It's even sadder that either noone cared enough about Fleur to explain how hurtful her behavior can be or that she didn't care that is was. As I said in my first post, overall I like Fleur because you can see a depth in her by her love for her sister. I just wish she wouldn't be so toxic with those whom she doesn't have a personal relationship. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 26 16:53:38 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:53:38 -0000 Subject: Second Reading -- Still Disappointed with HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135032 So I finished my second reading of HBP and I'm still a little let down and disappointed with it. There are certainly things I like about it. There is humor in the first half ? "you don't have to call me sir" "we must try not sink beneath our anguish, Harry" and I wish ESPN could hire Luna as a sports commentator. I liked that the discussion of how the Prophecy "foreordained" things without a determinism of future events. I appreciated chapters 1 and 2 more in the second reading. (Incidentally, why do the witches and wizards not say LV's name? Nothing happens when DD and Harry say it, and Fudge looked even sillier than usual when he couldn't say LV's name to the PM.) And the flashbacks were more interesting. However, the writing seems more flat and uninspired than usual ? I know she wanted to make the book shorter after OOTP but I think it is a little less magical and quirky for it. Here are two specifics. (1) Her stream-lined approach with no fun subplots or diversions or red herrings. Minor characters ? and here I include Hagrid, Neville, Luna, and Remus ? were all but dropped out of the book entirely. Harry figured out each clue as it arose and the only question was whether Ron and Hermione and DD would believe him. That wasn't a very interesting way to develop the story and certainly wasn't like books 1 to 5. There weren't any subplots at all unless you count shipping. (The whole "half blood prince" started out as an apparent subplot but at the end we found out why the book is rightly called "HP and the HBP.") And even the shipping seemed uninspired: going with the most obvious pairings. (I grant that if you parcel every syllable on relationships you can come up with virtually any pairing, but to those of us who focused many on the main story line and didn't pay that much attention to shipping would have guessed that Ron and Hermione would end up together and that Ginny was apparently being groomed for Harry in OOTP. Even JKR agreed in her recent interview with the mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldon editors that H/G and Hr/R were "painfully obvious" and that she had dropped "anvil sized hints" in the first five books.) Also the way Harry finally ended up kissing Ginny and Harry's noble split both seemed corny. (2) Characters. Hermione seemed even more tiresome this time than in the first reading. By page 200, every time she spoke I wanted to give her what JKR would call a "very rude hand gesture." Granted, a sixteen year old is going to act jealously, but there was nothing likeable about her here to offset that ? none of the caring and kindliness (except for repairing the little girl's scales) as in the previous books. She showed zero sympathy for their friend Hagrid after his friend died. I even missed SPEW ? as annoying as that could be it did show that Hermione had a good heart. Granted, after Ron dumped Lavender Hermione lightened up, but even at the end she was tactless: after DD died and she was explaining why Snape used the name "HBP" to a grieving Harry she didn't say "I found out why Snape used the name `HBP'," but had to claim that she was partially right about Eileen Prince. She is "maturing" from a witch into something that rhymes with "witch." I am going to have to reread books 1-4 and try to figure out why in the world she was my favorite character in them. Neville and Luna became almost non-existent characters. Was OOTP their highpoint in the series? I expected to see them develop for Book 7. I, like lots of others, thought after their last encounter in OOTP that Harry would start confiding more in Luna. But nothing happened. They were almost not even minor characters they were so out of the story. Same with Hagrid. Same with Remus and Tonks (unless you want to include the shipping that seemed to me a rather strange add-on at the end.) JKR seems to be simplifying the story line for Book 7. On the positive side, I was surprised how mature Harry seemed. I had expected him to be an emotional wreck after the death of Sirius and the revelations of OOTP. Apparently he is very resilient. As for Ron ? well, Ron is still Ron. If Ron is going to become a hero in Book 7, he is going to have to change dramatically all of a sudden. (Incidentally, for the shippers: why is Hermione attracted to him anyway? They don't seem exactly compatible.) Some people have tried to explain HBP away as simply part one of a two part book or that it is a "transition book", but that doesn't really help. I can't get over the fact that I actually thought "when will this be over?" during my first reading. I had always enjoyed the books and wanted them to be longer. There is enough of an intriguing plot line to make me still want Book 7, but I must admit I'm not as excited as I was for the previous books. (That all the elaborate theories we fans were speculating for the HBP proved unfulfilled is both a good sign and a bad sign: it suggests JKR will throw in some new things in Book 7 like the Horcruxes in HBP that we will not be able to predict but that the solution will be relatively straightforward ? no big elaborate twists.) I hope it doesn't turn into some LOTR quest adventure with lots of scenes similar to the one in the cave. I bet when the series is over that fans will become divided into two camps ? those who prefer books 1 to 4 and those who prefer books 5 to 7. Richard Jones From queencrem at yahoo.com.au Tue Jul 26 09:29:41 2005 From: queencrem at yahoo.com.au (queencrem) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:29:41 -0000 Subject: How to destroy a Horcrux (spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135033 The R.A.B note says that the person is going to destroy the locket. I doubt that Borgin or Burke would want to destroy it if they are into dark magic. queencrem From calamity469 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 14:09:19 2005 From: calamity469 at yahoo.com (calamity) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: False Identity? RAB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726140919.97315.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135034 Jen Reese wrote: On another forum, HPFGU group member Carolyn White suggested RAB could be Amy Benson, one of the children Tom Riddle lured into the cave and terrorized as a child. That got me thinking about the possibilities. For starters, we have the interview with JKR: But back to Amy. So you have this person who actually visited the cave. And after the cave incident, she and Dennis Bishop 'were never quite right afterwards.' So we assume they are simply traumatized Muggles. Now a couple of things could happen from there. 1) False Identity Theory: Amy was adopted and her name was changed. Meaning one of the characters we already know is actually Amy Benson. She never forgave or forgot Tom Riddle and his cruelty, and made it her mission in life to seek revenge. Or she simply abhorred his cruelty and wanted to free the world of his evil nature. I like this theory because we already have a successful false identity in canon. Also, to make this work, Amy would need to be several years younger than TR, and not someone he recognized at Hogawarts(or she attended a different wizarding school). Cali here: Amy would be a very good theory. There's also the possibility it could be Dennis Bishop. OR, the possibility also exists that they could have worked together - much the same way Harry and DD worked together to get through it. back to Jen: **McGonagall would be my first choice here both because of her age and the fact that she knew how to dress like a Muggle in OOTP. Problem here is she didn't tell Dumbledore her identity or that she had already destroyed the locket. And she's not dead, although technically RAB doesn't have to be dead even if he/she expected to be after the posion or by Voldemort's hand.** The lure of this one would be the moment Mcgonagall or other known canon figure reveals herself to be Amy Benson. We'd get not only get more explanation about Tom Riddle's past, but may get backstory on a well-known figure in canon and why she chose to keep her identity and actions secret. Cali's back: I just don't get the McGonagall feeling. I think she's just as she appears. She's fussy and very much like Hermione. There's also the possibility that she knows how to dress like a muggle because she may have been muggle-born. We just don't know enough about her. However, with her being so close to Dumbledore, I don't think she could have kept something like that a secret from him. Just my opinion, though. Now for an entirely different scenario: If, as JKR hints, the identity of RAB can be found in HBP, does anyone else think it could be Rufus Scrimgeour? The "R" is there, AND he walks with a limp, which indicates he has been injured at some point in time. He's an accomplished wizard, and he's tough. One who wouldn't be opposed to braving the cave and coming out intact. I'm not sure if this theory has been proposed here, yet. I haven't had time to read all the posts regarding RAB's identity. If it has, my apologies. From rxtlc at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 16:30:08 2005 From: rxtlc at comcast.net (Jenn) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:30:08 -0000 Subject: What is easy and what is right.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135035 I've been thinking as I've waded through most of the postings, and something DD said has been buzzing in my ears, and I've not seen anyone post on it, though I do admit my eyes have blurred many times reading all these great posts on HBP. DD told Harry (and all hogwarts students) at the speech at the end of GOF the time was coming when he'd have to choose between what was easy and what was right. "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed accross the path of Lord Voldemort." (GOF, p. 724 american version) I'm thinking that Harry, in using Snape's old text, took the easy path, and found out too late the consequences of his action. Anyone care to comment, add examples with other characters? Poppy, who is deeply conflicted on Snape and very busy with an 11-month old Harry of her own. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Tue Jul 26 17:26:51 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:26:51 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135036 BG's thoughts: 1. Why did Snape kill DD? >Snape told DD about the UV >Snape knows DD is dying from whatever "killed" his hand with only Snape's potion or a spell keeping him alive long enough to prepare Harry to go on without him >Under the circumstances at the Tower Snape cannot give DD the potion and he must save Draco's soul and live himself to keep working for the Order. He must do what is right. He must keep his word to DD to do whatever he is asked. DD asks not pleads with Snape to kill him or possibly release the spell that is keeping him alive. 2. Why did DD trust Snape? >Snape hid Baby Harry for DD until DD could make the arrangements at the Dursleys. Hagrid picked up Harry and took him to Snape at Spinner's End - that is why Hagrid trusts Snape. 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? >LV had made an UV with Snape as a reward for telling about the prophecy. Lily alive or dead made no difference to LV so it was an easy bargain for him. So Lily did not have to die but she got in the way when LV was desperate to kill Baby Harry and in anger he forgot the UV and killed Lily. Breaking the UV and the rebounded AK are what destroyed LV's body - the AK does not destroy the body so something more must have happened. 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? >My last what? Visit? Letter? Possibly DD made an UV with Petunia that he would protect them if she vowed to keep Harry until his 17th birthday. Maybe it was a double vow. DD protect her family and Petunia to give Harry a home. I'll add to this that Petunia will be the one who will show magical abilities late in life. JKR said ".....there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. The key phrase here is "desperate circumstances". Is she magical or did DD give her powers to defend her family if she gave Harry a home to complete Lily's charm until he comes of age? From jhloux at att.net Tue Jul 26 16:36:03 2005 From: jhloux at att.net (Jon Loux) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:36:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > HI Potterphiles! > My question is: Why did Ron ask Lavender out? I'm more puzzled by why Lavender was so head over heals in love with Won-won. One minute Ron is just realizing that every one of his friends has scored in one form or another, except for him. The next he has a doting lady friend. I wondered if Ron had given Lavender a love potion. That whole scene reads like A Midsummer Night's Dream. Jon. From ja9shahinian at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 16:51:30 2005 From: ja9shahinian at comcast.net (Janine R. Shahinian) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:51:30 -0400 Subject: Apparation Test at MOM was Re: Harry at Hogwarts year 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135038 Karen wrote: > Well Ron and Harry (Hermione did pass) can take the test at the > Ministry of Magic as there is a test centre there: > > OotP UK Paperback p 119 - Chapter 7 The Ministry of Magic > > [Harry and Arthur are in the lift on the way to Harry's hearing] > > "Level Six, Department of Magical Transportation, incorporating the > Floo Network Authority, Broom Regulatory Control, Portkey Office and > Apparation Test Centre." > > I am starting to belive the worst that they really are not going > back to school. Janine: I thought I'd toss in this observation, here, as I have yet to see anyone else make note of it (but I'm still back on posts from Thursday)... I feel pretty certain that Harry will go back to Hogwarts even if it's just to go back to the Room of Requirement. JKR, through Harry, took too much effort making sure he'd recognize which cabinet he hid the potions book in. If it wasn't a set up for going back, then Harry would probably just toss the book into the cabinet and dash back out again. But that "storage room" is a gold mine of potential stuff that could be horcruxes, don't you think? And, after all, young Voldemort made a rather pointless visit to Hogwarts. So, for all we know, that tarnished tiara on top of the wig might be the Ravenclaw relic. Bottom line, though, Harry will make a visit to Hogwarts. - Janine From nasar5 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 17:44:00 2005 From: nasar5 at sbcglobal.net (Nasar) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:44:00 -0000 Subject: 50 Years Old... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135039 Hi Everyone! I thought that when Harry checked the date on the HBP potions book that it was 50 years old... how can that be? Snape could not have been around 50 years ago... is the book perhaps, secondhand? Sorry if someone has already posted about this. I just find it odd that the potions book is that old... and Snape wasn't around 50 years ago... I think there might be a clue there... any ideas... theories? Shaista From slmuth at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 17:43:23 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:43:23 -0000 Subject: July 16 and RAB (was Re: False Identity? RAB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135040 Jen Reese : For starters, we have the interview with JKR: > > JKR: Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone > would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I > think that is ? well, I hoped that people would. > Janeway: What this really made me wonder is whether the date had some significance. Was she just being a little goofy, or is there something relevant about July 16 in relation to R.A.B.? I don't know my HP timeline well enough to know what might have happened on this date... anyone else have any ideas about what this might be? Janeway From bex753 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 17:55:48 2005 From: bex753 at yahoo.co.uk (Bex) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:55:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 50 Years Old... References: Message-ID: <028c01c5920b$40fc4fa0$6501a8c0@quietpc> No: HPFGUIDX 135041 > Shaista said> > I thought that when Harry checked the date on the HBP potions book > that it was 50 years old... how can that be? Snape could not have > been around 50 years ago... is the book perhaps, secondhand? Sorry if > someone has already posted about this. I just find it odd that the > potions book is that old... and Snape wasn't around 50 years ago... I > think there might be a clue there... any ideas... theories? The book was originally Eileen Prince's passed on to her son quote 'No - no - Harry, I didn't mean that!' she said hastily, looking around to check that they were not being overheard. 'It's just that 1 was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book. You see ... she was Snape's mother!' Bex -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 25/07/2005 From weildman at cox.net Tue Jul 26 18:05:58 2005 From: weildman at cox.net (weildman) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:05:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Learning and Teaching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726180542.MTDA20730.eastrmmtao04.cox.net@Heim> No: HPFGUIDX 135042 The past weeks have been filled with discussion revolving around learning and teaching. Subjects have varied from Snape's vindication based on OWL performance, to Harry and Hermione's performance in 6th Year potions. I think we have all missed the implications of the HBP's potions book in this discussion. Potions is one of the most dynamic and detailed classes in the books so I will focus manly on it, however, DADA, particularly Snape's teaching of it, gives a nice extension of potions professor Snape. Hogwarts has to be about more than memorizing. So far as we know Hogwarts is the final step in formal education for a witch or wizard and therefore must prepare its students for all endeavors. Students begin with simple spells and activities and then progress to more difficult magic. Meanwhile, they are exposed to theory and concepts- as Snape so aptly points out in DADA. Magic is dangerous and proper experimenting techniques must be learned. I am confident that this is being taught (out of our sight) because Fred and George never kill themselves or anyone else while experimenting. Some students have a challenge with just the basics of a subject for a variety of reasons (think Neville) while others are adept at whatever they attempt (Hermione). This is the point of OWLs, to asses the ability of a student to continue on in a particular subject. Snape does not want to waste his time teaching advanced potions to students below the excellent level (although he may have been left with only Hermione had he stayed in that position). NEWT potions was vastly different than previous years- not only because of the professor change but because of the sophistication of the students. They are being taught theory at this point, they are asked to analyze and devise but they are all severely disadvantaged in this endeavor. In five years I don't believe I saw Snape actually teach potions to anybody. Their talents brought them through despite his efforts. I always got the impression that a good muggle cook could reproduce most potions given the ingredients and instructions and I think Neville's OWL testing shows this. Slughorn comes in and attempts to teach these students based on his own experiences with this academic level. He should have been horribly disappointed with the class but he was distracted by Harry's performance. Harry used an incredible resource to his advantage- much the same way Hermione uses outside reading to improve her performance. I believe her jealousy comes from not having equal access and her distrust comes from her near fanatical trust in books (rather than notes in books). I think the most telling aspect of the HBP potions book is the revelation that it belonged to Snape. This absolutely genius improvement in a 50 year old textbook is allowed to gather dust instead of improving the knowledge of students. I believe Snape failed as a teacher when he failed to use his greater knowledge of the subject to improve the text for the course. I don't know what his reasons for withholding this knowledge was, but in doing so he failed his students and the wizarding world. The fact that he could have shared this knowledge and didn't is really telling about his character. Additionally Snape's treatment of Hermione in DADA shows his contempt for memorization- but in five years he has never challenged anyone to do anything else. It seems that as a professor he sets up students to fail his standards. His treatment of students fails to meet any logical standards (even if you justify his treatment of Neville, his treatment of Crabbe and Goyle by comparison means he failed them). I believe Dumbledore failed his students when he hired Snape as a professor regardless of the possible benefits to the world that posting created. -trevor Who believes that Snape is evil but working for the side of good. From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Tue Jul 26 18:14:26 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:14:26 -0000 Subject: I'm Confused In-Reply-To: <007001c591fe$d0df6830$6b90d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135043 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > > Re-reading all different passages as we all seem to be right now, I read, in OP that the eavesdropper was "detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building." (pg 743 Can Ed) Yet, when Trelawney is telling the story, "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs." (HBP 509 Can Ed). > Trelawney was in trance while telling the prophecy. When she woke up, she didn't remember what had happened. She heard something going on outside the door, and then she sees the barman and Snape. Snape had been listening during the first part of the prophecy, but was interupted by the barman and missed the very end of it. They probably started to argue, and this is when Trelawney wakes up. Marika From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Tue Jul 26 18:18:23 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:18:23 -0000 Subject: RAB as t2 (or more) people In-Reply-To: <20050726140919.97315.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, calamity wrote: > Jen Reese wrote: > On another forum, HPFGU group member Carolyn White suggested RAB > could be Amy Benson, one of the children Tom Riddle lured into the > cave and terrorized as a child. That got me thinking about the > possibilities. For starters, we have the interview with JKR: > 1) False Identity Theory: Amy was adopted and her name was changed. > Meaning one of the characters we already know is actually Amy > Benson. All of this sounds good, but why can't RAB be two people? As in R *and* B? Or three people, R, A, and B? Or two people R and A with the same last name B? *grin* I'm confusing myself here, but RAB doesn't have to be ONE person - or a male, for that matter. Just a thought. Kathi From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:19:35 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:19:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135045 Jon: > I'm more puzzled by why Lavender was so head over heals in love with > Won-won. zgirnius: Perhaps it was a status thing. Ron is a friend of Harry (this is *now* a distinction), Keeper of the House Quidditch team, and a prefect. From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:24:13 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:24:13 -0000 Subject: RAB as t2 (or more) people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kljohnson7868" wrote: > > All of this sounds good, but why can't RAB be two people? The note left by RAB used the pronoun "I", not "we". Even if that were not the case, I doubt two people signing a note would abbreviate "and" with an A. An ampersand, maybe, but not the letter A. Ersatz Harry From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:26:24 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:26:24 -0000 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I In-Reply-To: <1a1.386bca41.3017ba9d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135047 Julie: "Julie says: I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but there is one factor in Harry's "besting" Hermoine in Potions class that must stick in her craw. Harry is basically cheating. If Harry suddenly developed a real talent for Potions, and was regularly beating Hermoine, I think Hermoine would be a bit jealous but she would certainly acknowledge Harry's abilities and effort (as she does with other things like DADA)." How much cheating is it? Harry's just getting better instruction than the others with his "enhanced" textbook. He's still doing the work. He wouldn't be able to make the potions at all if he had no talent, HBP or not. He did get an "E" on his Potions OWL, after all. If Snape had been a better man and teacher, all the NEWT students might have had a copy of _Advanced Potions, Second Edition_, by Borage & Snape. If Snape wasn't sharing his tricks of the trade then that doesn't speak well of him as a teacher. In the same vein, suppose that Harry had bought a copy of _Tricks of the Potions Masters_, by Severus Snape? Would he be cheating then? I think what makes what Harry's doing a bit dodgy is that the other students don't have access to the same crib as Harry. Even if Harry shared his tricks with the class, (100% legitimate), then there wouldn't be any question. It's a worthwhile factoid that Snape didn't share his discoveries with the world at large. Jim Ferer From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 18:08:00 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:08:00 -0000 Subject: Slughorn impersonating DD? Was: Re: Harry's Scar / Snape switched the locket ,/and other theories In-Reply-To: <3202590507251956525cdbdf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135048 > Auria: > > I'm also enjoying the theory I read on some posts that DD's 'Oho!' in > > the cave means it is really Slughorn. > Sarah: > But Slughorn is seen at both the meeting called by McGonagall, and at > the funeral. Unless Dumbledore is now impersonating Slughorn? Yep, thats exactly what I was thinking - could it be that Slughorn sacrificed himself in swopping appearances with Dumbledore? I was really keen on this theory except that last night I read in an interview with JK Rowling that said after she killed off Sirius in OoP she was tearful but that at the end of writing HBP she was really upset about the ending. So that kind of indicates that DD's death may well be for real I'm afraid. Auria From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Tue Jul 26 18:28:39 2005 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:28:39 -0000 Subject: RAB as t2 (or more) people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > The note left by RAB used the pronoun "I", not "we". Even if that > were not the case, I doubt two people signing a note would abbreviate > "and" with an A. An ampersand, maybe, but not the letter A. > Ersatz Harry Oh suuuuuuuuure. Ruin my theory with excellent logic. *smirk* Kathi From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:37:27 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's parents In-Reply-To: <1122291235.733.39760.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050726183727.85699.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135050 Dave said: So why in Snape's memory > (_OOP_, Am. Ed., top of P. 592) is she cowering while her Muggle > husband shouts at her (as opposed to turning the domineering git into a yak)? Morgan here: I think you're underestimating the emotional power of being abused (verbally or otherwise). If these are Snape's parents, his mother is abused by his father. This kind of constant abuse might have diminished her powers. Muggle women are abused daily who are capable, maybe not of turning their partners into yaks, but of fighting back in some way - and choose not to because of the emotional issues involved. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:43:29 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:43:29 -0000 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135051 Jim Ferer wrote: > It's a worthwhile factoid that Snape didn't share his discoveries with > the world at large. > zgirnius: My post does not explain why Snape did not publish for the benefit of the whole WW. But did it never strike you as odd that Snape always wrote out potions instructions longhand on the blackboard instead of just telling his students a page number in their texts? Well, we now have a possible explanation... From tygrene at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 18:27:36 2005 From: tygrene at hotmail.com (guddammit) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:27:36 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <42E3CB8B.20801@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135052 Shannon wrote: I mean, yes, Fleur was arrogant and kind of awful, but that doesn't excuse nasty nicknames and mocking. I am using Shannon as just an example of a sentiment the resides in a lot of the readers, that Fleur is/ was arrogant and awful. However, I'd like to have just a little more proof that just the opinions of people who don't like her to begin with. After all, it's Ginny and the other females, who I think are rather jealous to begin with because of a) veela pheromone-reaction theory (like how they make men pools of foolish lust, but women shrews) b) because they assume someone very beautiful can ONLY be an idiot and egotisitic. I get that a lot, having been a professional model as a teenager, and also having been girlfriend to a mothercoddled boy, and now fiancee to a very italienne/francaise matriarch's favorite son. It puts me on the defense a lot, to feel like I have to prove myself. But my pride refuses to allow myself to be "humble" to the point of ridcule just to make others feel better. Fleur doesn't HAVE to want to get to know her in-laws-to-be better. She doesn't have to spend her summer with them. She's doing it for Bill. And she is being treated like crap when they should be trying to get to know each other. And also, I have to say that the English are as... "polite and restrained = @@@@-retentive" as the French are "blunt to the point of being rude" so, it's hard to get the two cultures to mix well. (I am British/ Chinese and currently live in France) I think they have their pluses, the two cultures, but they will just rub each other the wrong way. I recommend reading _Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong_ But then again... I could be very very wrong in my opinions. I began to question Molly's wisdom to emotion when she was limiting Harry in OOTP. Tygrene From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:51:18 2005 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:51:18 -0000 Subject: Horcruxes and the Mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135053 One thought on Harry being a Horcrux. Why would Voldemort choose to make a horcrux out of someone he was about to kill. Would it work on a dead body? And would it work with the AK not going through correctly? On to the Mirror. If Harry were to locate the mirror of Erised again, and truly wish to find the Horcruxes, would it show him? And what of the Room of Requirement? Jason From slmuth at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 18:51:01 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:51:01 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore In-Reply-To: <76.57e2fe39.3017190f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135054 rklarreich wrote: > From a literary standpoint, the longer a secret is concealed, the more impressive it had better be when the author finally reveals it. Where Snape is concerned, we've had Dumbledore insisting throughout the series that he trusts Snape absolutely for a reason he won't reveal. This sets the stage for an amazing revelation: what could it possibly be? Now, in book 6, what do we get? A rather feeble story that makes everyone in the Order who hears it (and the reader) say "Huh??!" After all this buildup, this CAN'T be the whole story. There has to be more to it than that, and that means we'll be getting the rest of it in book 7. > Incidentally, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust of Snape is between him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. This too suggests that there is more to it than Snape's repentance over betraying Harry's parents, which *is* Harry's business. > Janeway: I agree with you that we don't yet have all the information about why DD trusted Snape. I'm not convinced that this additional info will reveal that Snape is actually on the side of the Order, but I do think that it will be so persuasive that it will convince Harry and the reader that DD was justified in trusting Snape given the information he had at the time. In addition to the literary/novelistic reasons that you give above, there is also DD's infamous hesitation on p 549 when Harry asks: ""...how can you be *sure* Snape's on our side?" Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."" It sounds like DD is trying to decide whether to reveal this deeply secret (and possibly personal) piece of information to Harry, and decides not to. But whatever this missing piece of information is, it pretty much has to be about Harry's parents, probably his mother. Here's DD again (with a lot of snipping to condense): "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake...he did not know...which boy Voldemort would hunt..or that the parents he would destroy...were your mother and father-- ...You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how LV had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life." (p 549) I'm not the first one to say it, but what DD doesn't reveal here is WHY Snape felt remorse. That "why" (eg. because he loved or felt friendship for Lilly, or because he owed a life debt to James, or whatever) could make his repentance seem extremely convincing. And, it also seems to me like the missing info must be tied to Snape's worst memory (in the Pensieve in OOP). Snape had removed that memory to teach Harry Occlumency. Per Snape, Occlumency depends on being able to "shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie" (OOP, p531 US HC). So whether Snape is good or evil, this memory must be one that "contradicts the lie" that he told to either DD or LV. Normally he is able to "shut down" the memory, but as we saw, during an Occlumency lesson one is more vulnerable to inadvertent revelations. He didn't want Harry to accidentally come across those memories in the course of Occlumency lessons and report them to DD (or somehow reveal them to LV), so he removed them completely. But what SWM reveals... that's a stumper. It's been endlessly debated. Maybe it's as simple as showing how much Snape hated James and why, and by hiding this from DD, Snape was able to convince him that he was actually sorry when he put James in danger. Since Harry had seen this memory he had better insight on Snape's true feelings than DD did. Enough rambling :-) Janeway From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 17:05:55 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:05:55 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135055 Julie "fanofminerva" wrote: > which there is no canon evidence as yet for motive. Anyone care > to join? > > 1. Why did Snape kill DD? > 2. Why did DD trust Snape? > 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? > 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? 5. Why did Dumbledore have the "triumphant gleam" in his eyes in GOF? "rolshan2000" From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 18:14:06 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:14:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar / Snape switched the locket ,/and other theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135056 > Auria (Rita): > > 2. Well, is it possible that DD and Harry DID retrieve > > the real horcrux locket but that it was switched by Snape and > > Malfoy from DD's body at the foot of the tower just before > > Harry caught up with them? > > Juli: I don't think so, Dumbledore, seemed to know the Horcrux > was a fake from the moment he took it, But of course, I > could be completely wrong, and Snape changed the locket, the > question is When? Was Snape ever alone with Dumbledore? As I > remember he wasn't. Yes, Snape did have an opportunity. If you remember, Dumbledore's body was lying at the bottom of the tower. Snape and Malfoy ran off to escape Hogwarts with Harry chasing after them. Harry doesn't reach the bottom of the tower until a short while after Snape and Malfoy, so yes Snape could have quickly swapped the locket then, although perhaps under the pretence of just stealing it to hide his true intentions from Malfoy who was also present. Could be a long shot, but certainly possible. Rita From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 18:33:41 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:33:41 -0000 Subject: 50 Years Old... In-Reply-To: <028c01c5920b$40fc4fa0$6501a8c0@quietpc> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135057 > Shaista said: > > I thought that when Harry checked the date on the HBP potions > > book that it was 50 years old... how can that be? Snape could > > not have been around 50 years ago... is the book perhaps, > > secondhand? > > Bex: > The book was originally Eileen Prince's passed on to her son. On that theme,I rewatched the film of CoS and apparently it was 50 years ago from when Harry opens the diary that the Chamber was opened. At that time both Tom Riddle and Hagrid were at Hogwarts. So it seems that Tom Riddle was at school the same time as Eileen Prince, Snape's mother. I wonder if that has any relevance somehow? Also, assuming both TR and Hagrid were in their teens at the time, that would now make their ages both in their 60s. I never realised that Voldemort and Hagrid were that old! Anyone have any comments? Rita From erinstratton at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 18:42:55 2005 From: erinstratton at gmail.com (Erin) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:42:55 -0000 Subject: Who does DD have in hiding? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135058 I think it's highly likely that DD has Ollivander in hiding. It sounded as though there were specific plans in place which had already been executed before when he was talking to Draco, and Ollivander would certainly be worth protecting. Not the most fascinating or far-fetched theory, but it could be important. "Erin" From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Tue Jul 26 19:19:59 2005 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:19:59 -0000 Subject: Another "Not Really DD" Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "crystalonyx3" wrote: > I never thought that was really DD thoughout the whole book. > Remember when he asked HP if he'd managed to get the true > memory from Sluggy'? When HP told him he hadn't gotten > it DD reacted in what I thought was out of character. He mentioned > HP's cunning. Cunning?! Doesn't that sound more like a LV (or Snape) thing to say. The real DD knows that Harry is not cunning. That boy never divised a plan in his whole life. HP always just jumped in head first and hoped for the best. > > There were a few other times in this book that DD didn't sound like his usual self. Like when he first found Sluggy. He poked him really hard. Would DD have done that? And what did he really do when he went to the bathroom? Pee? I think not! Oh,Oh, and when DD had to drink that liquid. He said "It's all my fault." What was all his fault? (What if DD and Snape traded places?) Why were we told that Snape felt guilty about HP's parents? When DD Drank that liquid he cried and said- "It's all my fault," and for that matter, it could have been Wormtail. He and Snape were living together at the begining. What if Wormtail reformed? > > The rational part of me says that it is what it is..... Snape is a > dirty muther-shut your mouth. DD is dead and HP is going to loose > everyone close to him before this is over (is this still supposed to > be for children?). But the part of me that gets excited at the idea > of magic being real believes that DD is locked up somewhere with > chunks of his beard missing and when he fights his way out of that > imperious curse I wouldn't want to be the deatheater on duty that > night. > > crystalonyx3 Maybe....but no. You're assuming that people at Hogwarts (and elsewhere) are sucking back Polyjuice Potion as if it's Diet Pepsi. I think DD has to be dead, for real. It's the only way Harry can face LV on his own, and the only way JKR can bring the series to a close. Book VII is it, folks. She's warned us about this for a long time--so for her to kill off DD at this point represents a major step towards the major climax. Book VII will test Harry's powers like never before--and, from what I've read in HBP, Harry seems to have outgrown Hogwarts, at least academically. After all, he's always been pretty much self-taught anyway, learning what he needs to know on his own in order to face his crises. He's not a great student-- but I suspect that the really successful people in the wizarding world don't owe their success to what they learned in NEWT level Potions--even Snape began making up his own spells (if they were his own spells) by sixth year. Fred and George are evidence of that, too. JKR doesn't have much time for rule-bound insitutions, and the wizarding world seems in danger of collapsing under the weight of its own rules. Harry's being the Chosen One may have as much to do with his decision to forego rules as much as it does anything that came out of Trelawny's mouth--and DD as much as tells him that (the prophecy applies to Harry because Harry chose to have it apply to him). That's getting off the topic of DD's death, but I think it's all related. Noel. From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 18:50:34 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Murder = splitting the soul? In-Reply-To: <1122303935.5524.16741.m33@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050726185034.98073.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135060 I am interested by this take on murder in the books. I have a couple questions: 1. Does this count all murders? Even those done for a righteous reason? If so, Dumbledore and most of the members of the Order would have torn souls. Though, of course, the difference is that they did not create a horcrux to save it in. 2. Does self-defense count? I wonder what readers who have committed a murder (you know there are some) thought about this judgement. --Morgan From casscat at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 19:08:36 2005 From: casscat at gmail.com (snapherupinabutterflynet) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:08:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135061 Snapeophile: > Also, re-reading HBP, I think the comment Ginny made to > Hermione ("Oh don't act like you understand Quidditch," > snapped Ginny 'you'll only embarrass yourself.") > > This is one of the most hateful, spiteful lines in the > entire books. I never liked Ginny, not one iota, but now > she has fallen into the "if Voldemort gets her category, > I don't care." New member here, joining in. *waves* I agree completely. That scene doesn't sit right with me for a couple of reasons. First, Hermione *completely* has a point- Harry should never have tried out an obviously dark curse, even on Malfoy. The idea that Ginny congratulates him for having a good trick up his sleeve and disregards this makes her seem very cold- almost scary. Second, Hermione was anxious and maybe a little overbearing, but she was never rude to Ginny. Then Ginny just comes back with something completely uncalled for and snotty. I've never been a Ginny fan, but I tried hard to appreciate or like her in this book, and it just wasn't happening (I'm sure other people have said it better). -Cass From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Jul 26 19:21:22 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:21:22 EDT Subject: Am I the only one... AND why Snape dislikes Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135062 >>Milz responds: >>But let's look at the antidote. Way back in PS/SS, Rowling >>teaches us the use of a bezoar. Does Hermione retain that >>information? No. A person who "really knows their stuff" will be able >>to recall small details like that and apply that knowledge. Christina: Are you kidding? Expecting Hermione to remember what she learned on one particular day in Potions five *years* ago is a bit much; and I must say, I'm a bit surprised that you're using this as an example, considering that if there's one thing that I think we can all agree Hermione is good at, it's remembering things. Also, we don't know for sure that Hermione "forgets" what a bezoar does--even if she knew what it was, why would she use it? The point of the lesson was to synthesize an antidote to a particular poison-- Slughorn wanted his students to take their knowledge of Potions and use it to synthesize something new (a skill that you're denying Hermione has). In my mind, Harry cheated. He didn't complete the assignment at all. He even points out that there's no way he would have tried offering the bezoar in Snape's class, and even Slughorn says, "an extra ten points to Gryffindor for sheer cheek!" Slughorn is an easygoing professor and likes Harry, which is why he finds Harry's antidote amusing. However, when we look at the real task at hand, which is the application of knowledge to create something new, it is Hermione that comes the farthest in the class. She is the only one that Harry describes even looking as though she has an idea of what she's doing, and she's the only one Harry describes as giving anything even close to a satisfactory result. It's obvious that the sixth year at Hogwarts focuses on many things that are a step up from the usual book knowledge that we've seen drilled into the students so far--making their own antidotes in Potions, non-verbal spells in their other classes. Nobody is saying Hermione is a genius, but she's still highly intelligent. She might not have made up new inventions like the Weasley twins, but has she ever had to? I'm not sure who said it, but somebody pointed out that the fact that she doesn't take any steps to remedy the obviously faulty instructions in her textbook shows that she can't think outside of her books, but I think that it just shows that she's never had to do anything like it before. Snape always wrote correct formulas on the blackboard-- she's never had to question her instructions before, so why should she now? From what we can see in the text, the students are just now starting to be expected to use real "intelligence." With her progress in the Potions antidote class and her skill with nonverbal spells (she catches onto them faster than the other students), I'd say she's working up to her potential nicely. She's certainly doing better than the other students in her classes. The bottom line is, we need to remember that Hermione is still a child. It's kind of amusing that we're talking about the Polyjuice Potion, considering that was something she did when she was *13* years old (but while we're on it, I would like to point out that even though she *is* brewing a potion that has already been invented, it is Hermione that thinks up the idea to use it; she was able to dig through her brain and pick out the most appropriate solution to her problem). I realize nobody is saying that Hermione is dumb, but I think we should give her the respect that she is due. There's more to her than the regurgitation of what she reads in books. The Weasley twins are highly intelligent, and they're able to demonstrate this because they have the time and desire to tinker around with new ideas; they pretty much brush off the rest of their schoolwork. They are also extremely creative. There's no way we can say that Hermione could never come up with similar innovations if that's what she decided to put her energy into. >>trevor: >>Additionally Snape's treatment of Hermione in DADA shows his contempt for >>memorization- but in five years he has never challenged anyone to do >>anything else. It seems that as a professor he sets up students to fail his >>standards. Christina: You make some good points concerning Snape's abilities as a teacher, but I give him credit for the fact that he is smart enough to know the right way to brew Potions and teaches *that* to his students, rather than handing them a poor textbook and having them fail again and again. Also, I've always attributed Snape's (general) dislike of Hermione partially to his feelings about James. A lot of people point to James as one of the reasons Snape treats Harry so badly, but I think we can use it for Hermione too. James seems like a real show-off from what we see in OotP, and while Hermione has mellowed out a bit in her tendency to show-off, she still likes to display what she knows and is confident in her knowledge. She's also Harry's friend, and we all know how Snape feels about Harry. Add to that her place in Gryffindor, and Snape's dislike for her makes sense. She's also extremely vocal in the class, so he has more opportunities to show outward dislike for her than he would if she sat in silence (like many other students do). Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 19:32:25 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:32:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Murder = splitting the soul? In-Reply-To: <20050726185034.98073.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007e01c59218$c10d6c80$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135063 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Morgan Adams I am interested by this take on murder in the books. I have a couple questions: 1. Does this count all murders? Even those done for a righteous reason? If so, Dumbledore and most of the members of the Order would have torn souls. Though, of course, the difference is that they did not create a horcrux to save it in. 2. Does self-defense count? --Morgan Sherry now: We don't actually know that anyone in the order has committed murder, do we? Even Dumbledore may not have. Doesn't his chocolate frog card say that he "defeated" grindewald? That could mean something different than murder. We are even told that in the last war, though the ministry authorized the use of the unforgivable curses, Moody never killed anyone. Or was that never used them if he could bring them in without it? However, I would say murder is murder, and there is no right cause for murder. Soldiers have to kill the enemy, and i think that lets them off the hook. Self-defense is also one that would let you off the hook, i think. I doubt that Harry is going to have to do something as mundane as actually kill Voldemort by a curse of some sort, though I have absolutely no theory of what he might do. Even if I begged my best friend to shoot me, and my friend did so, that person would go on trial for murder. i guess that's why I get stuck on the good Snape idea. I can't conceive of *any* reason for Snape to murder Dumbledore that could make it right in my eyes. and what kind of message would that send to children? sherry From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 19:01:12 2005 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (Jonathan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:01:12 -0000 Subject: Person coming to magic late in life/Hermione in potions class (was Re: Am I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135064 > Julie: Harry is basically cheating. If Harry suddenly > developed a real talent for Potions, and was regularly beating > Hermione, I think Hermione would be a bit jealous but she would > certainly acknowledge Harry's abilities and effort > Jim: How much cheating is it? Harry's just getting better > instruction than the others with his "enhanced" textbook. > I think what makes what Harry's doing a bit dodgy is that the > other students don't have access to the same crib as Harry. plagiarism: n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own "Jonathan" From ngermany at excite.com Tue Jul 26 19:34:56 2005 From: ngermany at excite.com (elizabeththedragonslayer) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:34:56 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135065 Julie wrote: > I thought we could start a list of observations that we have > made for which there is no canon evidence as yet for motive. > Anyone care to join? > > 1. Why did Snape kill DD? > 2. Why did DD trust Snape? > 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? > 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? Best quesses: 1. Because it is part of the master plan that he and DD devised which only he and DD know the details of. 2. Snake went to DD for some emotionally charged reason and DD extracted a wizard's promise from him. 3. Clueless 4. I think JKR answered this already. I'm wondering what he's holding her in check with? "elizabeththedragonslayer" From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 19:42:45 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726194245.36014.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135066 Del: So Hermione knows full well that the Twins are extraordinary wizards, and she's fully aware that the only reason they never had brilliant grades is because they never cared. Juli: And she doesn't even know how their inventions work! I'm thinkinf about the hats that make your head disappear, she doesn't know how they managed to get the hat to disapear the head. Del: She created a Jinx that nobody has been able to break! So OBVIOUSLY this Jinx is NOT in a book, or all those who have tried to help Marrietta would have found it. Juli: Where does it say that she INVENTED it? Del: > I think you're the one who is deflating her abilities to much less than they really are. Hermione is much more than a bookworm: she is a creative witch, who is learning the principles of magic. Reducing her to a mindless robot is not at all conform to canon Juli: I've nevver said Hermione's a bookworm. I know she is a smart, intelligent girl with a lot of potential, but I don't know, I have this hunch that she won't be able to do much more, she may be evem the MoM! She's samrt enough for it. I think she breaks under preasure (remember the "but I don't have wood?", was it PS or CoS). PS If she was going to take an IQ test how much do you think she'd get? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 19:55:55 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:55:55 -0000 Subject: Two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > I have a few questions about HBP: > 1)Why does everyone in Book-6 behave in such a blaise manner > whenever Harry tells him or her about his doubts regarding Malfoy? > Once or twice is ok but why do they persist in disbelieving Harry > for so long? > 2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or > kill DD? > > bye > Adi: > Ps: I had so many questions before but I forgot all of them. bboyminn: "Q-1.)Why does everyone in Book-6 behave in such a blaise manner whenever Harry tells him or her about his doubts regarding Malfoy?" Because Harry has no proof. In fact, it seems that Harry doesn't even have a good argument. He simply suspects that Draco is up to something, and people seem to agree, but to believe a young boy has been inducted into the Death Eaters is a stretch, and to believe that it has happened so Draco could carry out some dark and nefarious purpose is even harder to swallow. Especially when there is no proof. I think Harry's suspicious were acknowledge and acted on by other, it just that there was nothing to really support his conclusion, and what these so-called 'blaise' people were looking for was something concrete. There was evidence to support suspicions, but nothing that would allow them to reach a conclusion; something Harry had no problem doing. For most of the story, it seems that Hermione thought Harry had more immediate problems to deal with than wasting his time pursuing Draco. Ron on the other hand, simply couldn't work it out. He was too short sighted to see that Draco could be up to anything beyond schoolboy bullying pranks. Again, I believe that everyone supported Harry suspicion, but they simply couldn't find anything solid enough to support Harry's conclusions. "Q-2) How come Voldemort chooses Draco of all the people to trap and/or kill DD?" Because Draco was inside of Hogwarts which is something no other Death Eater or Death Eater wana-be could do. Plus Draco came up with the plan or at least part of it. It was Draco who discovered how to get the DE's into the castle. He discovered that the B&B Shop vanishing cabinet and the Hogwarts vanishing cabinet were connected, and realized that it would be a Stealth way to enter the castle. I think he brought that plan to Voldemort, who expanded on it, and gave Draco the great honor of being the one to kill Dumbledore. It's very true that this particular honor was WAY OVER Draco head, far beyond his skill and inclination, but one does not refuse Voldemort. But I don't think Voldemort's plans are all that well thought out either. He sees himself as god-like, and anything he thinks of is valid simply because HE thought of it, and no one but no one argues with Voldemort. So, Voldemort set the plan into motion. I do agree that Voldemort didn't care one way or another what happened to Draco. He may have been motivated somewhat by Lucius's failure, but I think in reality, this was merely an excuse to goad Draco into action; "Your father has failed me, but you can redeem him when you do this for me". That puts a lot of pressure on Draco, and makes it extremely difficult for him to say NO. Personally, I think Draco wanted to stay out of it. He simply wanted to convey the secret to entering Hogwarts and let the other DE's take it from there. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From siskiou at vcem.com Tue Jul 26 20:02:32 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:02:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493974802.20050726130232@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135068 Hi, Tuesday, July 26, 2005, 12:08:36 PM, snapherupinabutterflynet wrote: > Second, Hermione was anxious and maybe a little overbearing, but she was > never rude to Ginny. Sure, but Luna was never rude to Hermione, and Hermione still made some catty, rude remarks about her (and Hermione has never been above saying hurtful things to others). I don't think this makes Ginny into a completely unlikable, hateful person. Just like Hermione, she sometimes slips, but has plenty of good qualities to offset the bad (defending Neville, Luna, Harry etc.). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 20:05:29 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:05:29 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... AND why Snape dislikes Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > Nobody is saying Hermione is a genius, but she's still highly > intelligent. Au contraire. Alot of readers have inflated Hermione's abilities to that of HBP and have compared her to HBP. HBP is truly talented and gifted to be able to improve on the textbook's instructions: it shows a deeper understanding of the physical nature of the ingredients and how the qualities affect other ingredients. HBP was able to devise spells , hexes and jinxes: that shows an application of magic principles that exceeds knowing when to use the particular spell. As I've many times said before, Hermione isn't a dummy, but she's not on the same intellectual level of HBP or the Weasley Twins. Until she can demonstrate that she belongs in this class, we should refrain from deluding ourselves that she is. > She might not have made up new inventions like the Weasley > twins, but has she ever had to? No, because Hermione runs to her books. So Hermione - books = can't do a thing without them. Plus Hermione's encyclopedic knowledge is a plot device for Rowling to toss in the odd fact. I'm not sure who said it, but somebody pointed out > that the fact that she doesn't take any steps to remedy the obviously faulty > instructions in her textbook shows that she can't think outside of her books, > but I think that it just shows that she's never had to do anything like it > before. Snape always wrote correct formulas on the blackboard-- she's never had > to question her instructions before, so why should she now? Why should she question the instructions now? Because they are faulty, that's why. The mere fact that she can't bring herself to acknowledge that a book is wrong or deficient is an example of why Hermione doesn't think outside of the box. Within the "box", textbooks are correct, unquestionable. Yet, the box in this case is faulty---the readers know it's faulty, Hermione knows it's faulty, Harry and Ron know it's faulty. But she is insistent that it is correct. She only follows what convention tells her to follow even if it is wrong: that's intellectual stagnation. Rather than questioning and trying to problem solve, she accepts the faulty book information as fact---in other words, her intellectual curiosity is diminished to non-existent due to her overdependency on the books. HBP figured out that the book was faulty. But instead of accepting this flaw as fact, HBP found ways to make overcome the deficiencies of the book. In other words, HBP thought outside of the box rather than sit back and think "Well the book says this. Whatever the book says is right." Again, innovations and discoveries were initiated by people who dared to question "why" and who dared to find better ways. They weren't initiated by people who only did what the book said. >There's no way we can say > that Hermione could never come up with similar innovations if that's what she > decided to put her energy into. > And until there is canon to support that Hermione does something "Weasley Twin-like", it's not wise to assume she will and use that assumption as the basis for discussions about Hermione's ability think outside of the box. Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jul 26 20:11:44 2005 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:11:44 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <20050726194245.36014.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > PS If she was going to take an IQ test how much do you > think she'd get? > I think she would score very high because Hermione strikes me as person who's a good test taker. But tests/grades aren't everything when it comes to intelligence---Fred and George are good examples of that. Milz From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 20:20:48 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:20:48 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135071 Milz wrote: "Knowing how something is done after seeing an example of it is very different from creating something de novo. What Fred and George do--manipulating and altering jinxes and hexes to get certain results is very different from looking at an end product and speculating how it works." Del replies: But when Hermione manipulates the Protean Charm to give the DA a way to communicate, or when she manipulates whatever hex to create the Sneak Jinx, that doesn't count, right? Milz wrote: "Never said Hermione lacks intelligence. I've stated that she's not on the same plane of intellect as HBP or Fred and George." Del replies: And you've never neither PROVED that, nor even explained why you set the HBP and the Twins on a separate plane, let alone a higher one. 1. We don't know *how long* it took the Twins and the HBP to figure their inventions. For all we know, maybe they worked for years to get results that Hermione would have gotten in a few weeks. 2. We know that the Twins sacrificed almost everything else in order to create a few artifacts. They worked barely enough to scrape a handful of OWLs, even though with their intelligence, just paying attention in class should have allowed them to pass many more classes. Hermione, on the other hand, is stretching her time between MANY things, she simply doesn't have the time to concentrate on creating new stuff right now. 3. The Twins have the motivation, Hermione doesn't. The Twins are not happy being at school and learning, Hermione is. So for now she is applying all her energy to studying and learning, but there is no telling what she could do if she concentrated on something in particular. Milz wrote: "But you bring up another problem with Hermione: she allows her biases to get in the way of the advancement. Again, this is an example of not thinking outside of the box. In terms of research and innovation, if you stay within the confines of that box, you limit yourself and your research." Del replies: How dare she, a 16-year-old kid, have biases... No matter, of course, that she is the only one thinking outside the box on matters such as House-Elf enslavemnet... Milz wrote: "That's why she isn't on the same intellectual plane as the Weasley Twins or HBP." Del replies: WHAT plane?? You keep going on about how the HBP and the Twins are such geniuses, but you have NOT brought a single PROOF of it. The only thing we know is that they did great magic, but we don't know how long it took them, nor how much research, nor ANYTHING. If you want to argue that they are true geniuses, then you're going to have to prove it, not just assume it based on the results. When I was in high school, my best friend was some kind of genius, he got great grades with comparatively little work. Another classmate, on the other hand, spent hours and hours and hours on his schoolwork, he was probably the one who worked most of all of us. But the end result was that he had just as good grades as my best friend. So there's no way to judge of someone's "intelligence" just by the results. It's the way they get there that distinguishes true geniuses from less gifted but very hard-working people. Milz wrote: "History celebrates the innovators and creators---those who dared to push the boundaries of the accepted---and calls them "the greats of" their fields." Del replies: Do you have any idea how much time those greats spent learning, and studying what other people have done? Do you have any idea how often they failed, how many of their ideas proved fruitless, how much sheer tenacity they often needed to get ONE true stroke of genius? Hermione hasn't even started working in any field yet! So how on Earth could she show any kind of genius?? Milz wrote: "You can't make that kind of assumption. Because she does lack scientific creativity." Del replies: Prove it! You keep saying that but you haven't proved it. Milz wrote: "Again, knowing her actions in the books (not our biased interpretations of it), would Hermione have been able to create the polyjuice potion if it never existed in the HP world? Probably not, because she hasn't demonstrated that she can extrapolate and apply knowledge pragmatically." Del replies: We have given you several examples of Hermione doing just that. But YOU keep asserting, *without any proof*, that she couldn't have invented the Polyjuice Potion. Methinks that if anyone is having a biased interpretations of Hermione's actions, it's you. Milz wrote: "Alot of assumptions there." Del replies: Show, don't tell. What assumptions exactly were made? Milz wrote: "Until Rowling says "Hermione devised the Sneak Spell"," Del replies: Huh? So it's OK to say "Hermione cannot invent new spells", because JKR hasn't said otherwise, but it is not OK to say "Hermione can invent new spells", because JKR hasn't said it? Milz wrote: "we can only base her actions on what we know of Hermione from PS/SS to OoP: 1. she reads alot. 2. she studies alot. 3. she's a walking encyclopedia. 4. she hasn't demonstrated any aptitude for development of de novo spells, hexes, jinxes, etc." Del replies: Numbers 1, 2 and 3 are NECESSARY parts of being a genius and developing wholly new stuff. Number 4 is a circular argument. Basically you're saying "I can't accept that Hermione invented the Sneak Jinx, because she never invented a jinx before". Huh?? And finally, as we've told you many times, NOBODY has been able to undo the Sneak Jinx. If that Jinx existed in a book, the Healers in St Mungo's would know of it, or they would have found it in a book. The fact that Marrietta showed up in HBP with the Sneak still on her face is a very strong indication that this jinx is entirely new. Milz wrote: "But the point remains, this shows a lack of curiousity, which is a critical quality in those who are truly innovative and creative. " Del replies: Because Hermione shows a lack of curiosity ONCE, you conclude that she doesn't have curiosity? We've given you many psychological reasons why Hermione was peeved with the book, and didn't want to investigate it. But of course, if you want to argue that a real genius would never let anything as basic as ego or jealousy get in their way, please feel free to do so. I must warn you, though, that historical facts are against you on that one. Milz wrote: "But she neglects the bezoar nonetheless. She takes it out of her possibilities, which is something that isn't done by people who are truly innovative and creative." Del replies: This is downright ridiculous. They were in CLASS, they had a TASK, and that's what Hermione was doing. There's a MAJOR difference between applying oneself to a classroom task, within the limits that the class set, and a real life or a professional situation, where discovering new ways to do things is the rule. If Harry had been in my classin high school or university, he would have had a zero, for not doing the work he was assigned to do. He might have gotten oral congratulations for thinking of the bezoar, but he would still have had a zero, because he didn't do the job. Milz wrote: "Again, no one is arguing that Hermione is as dumb as a rock. However, she hasn't shown the brilliance of an Edison, or a Newton, or a Pauling, or a Pascal or a Weasley twin." Del replies: I wonder what you would have judged Einstein to be, at Hermione's age? Not the genius he was, for sure... Milz wrote (in another message): "Again, if the polyjuice potion did not exist in the HP universe, would she have been able to conceive of that idea and would she be able to execute it? My guess is no," Del replies: Prove it. Milz wrote: "1. She doesn't think outside of the box. She limits herself to the safe confines of convention and does very well within those confines." Del replies: Canon proof of that? Just because YOU SEE Hermione that way does NOT mean she IS that way. Milz wrote: "2. She lacks the critical temerity to apply her knowledge outside of the box, unlike the Weasley twins." Del replies: Canon proof? Milz wrote: "When limitations are imposed, creativity and innovation stagnates. All the innovations and discoveries are because someone somewhere thought one day "what would happen if" and actually set out to do it. They didn't cower in a corner and think "Because page 354 of The Textbook of Everything says it's not possible to do, I'd better not waste my time." That attitude and that lack of critical thinking only leads to intellectual stagnation." Del replies: That's YOUR view of Hermione, but you have given precious little canon support of that view. We have given you canon support to the opposite, but you have dismissed most of it as "assumptions". Well, I dismiss your view as assumptions too, because that's all it is, as long as it isn't backed up by canon. Del From imontero at iname.com Tue Jul 26 19:56:33 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:56:33 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050726165213.60341.qmail@web32709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135072 Ladi lyndi wrote: skip> > As I said, I blame Bill for not stepping in. It's his job to help integrate Fleur into his family and one way is to explain to her the basic manners followed in his parents home and to point out certain traditions that, while perhaps not enjoyable to all, they tolerate out of respect. To not do that isn't fair to Fleur or his family. If she chooses not to follow those basic manners, it doesn't say much about her love for Bill. If she loves him so much, shouldn't she be trying to get along with his family? skip. Again, this is Bill's job. > skip> > As I said in my first post, overall I like Fleur because you can see a depth in her by her love for her sister. I just wish she wouldn't be so toxic with those whom she doesn't have a personal relationship. > Luna here: I've been reading your discussion about Fleur and I took the liberty to step in. I hope you don't mind. I'll start with my antecedents. I am the only girl in my family. I have two brothers. In my father side, the first one being born in a couple of generations (weird, isn't it?) I can completely identify with Ginny, especially after having had a crush on one of my brothers best friends. I got over it eventually. Once I was a little bit grown up, he started to take an interest on me. Well, too late, I was way over it already and didn't look at him twice Well, to the point, my older brother is married to a woman that, although not as nearly as nasty as Fleur, is getting close to the general concept Well, she is not a particularly a pleasant person, although she, like Fleur, is deep down good at heart: she can be very caring and generous when she wants to My other brother and I had problems adapting to her at first, specially my younger brother. She has done things that makes you stop and wonder were does my brother keeps his b ls. Well, I realized that when men are in love, like Bill, they're unable to see certain things, even if they're independent and pretend they have control over the situation; well, they don't really have it, at list not of the whole situation... (I really hope no one gets insulted with this comment ) Consequence: Most of the family detests her, part of it won't talk to her. On the other hand, most of them will put up with her because they love my nephews and because, like it or not, she is the woman my brother chose and the woman that makes him happy. Just like Ginny and Hermione, we make jokes about her, we even have a nickname for her. I've learned in time not to give too much importance to her nasty side. The same will happen with Ginny and Hermione. Fleur is a very nasty person but she never hesitated to stand by her man even if he was deformed. She is a very brave, strong woman and she showed it. I respect and admire her, although I still don't like her and think she could do with a very rude hand sign. I think everyone has someone like that in the family From Fabre.a at caramail.com Tue Jul 26 20:37:26 2005 From: Fabre.a at caramail.com (a_fabrefr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:37:26 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135073 > Milz wrote: > "Never said Hermione lacks intelligence. I've stated that she's not on > the same plane of intellect as HBP or Fred and George." I've nothing against the Twin and like them, but I can't figure how you can say they are such genius. All we know is that they create some funny artefacts. For me to be at pair with Newton or Einstein they should investigate the nature of magic or create a news way to understand the word. To date they just seems to be good ingenier. By the way I think the magic world lack the ability to try to push and study the boundary of knowledge, I know it's necessary for the plot but they seems to copy the muggle (railways, car, telescope) more than create. Hermione with he muggle backgroud could probably be more capable to have a critic eyes on the accepted theorie in the magic world. Alexandre From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 20:43:35 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:35 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > IMO, this is what is so brilliant about JKR's writing. She gives us > many observations, behaviors, actions, but she does not give us the > motive, ...edited... > > I thought we could start a list of observations that we have made > for which there is no canon evidence as yet for motive. Anyone care > to join? > -Julie > > 1. Why did Snape kill DD? > 2. Why did DD trust Snape? > 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? > 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? bboyminn: 1.) Why did Snape kill DD? Because he realised that Dumbledore was already dead, or very close to it. I have to wonder if the 'dead hand' curse wasn't speading through his body. They may have been able to keep it at bay for a while, but I suspect it was spreading, and that in some length of time, ...weeks, ...months, it would have killed Dumbledore. Because of this, I believe that Snape and Dumbledore may have had a conversation that said, not so much that Snape should flat out kill Dumbledore, but that Snape should seize any opportunity to maintain his role as a DE even if it was to Dumbledore's detriment. Realizing he was dying, Dumbledore knew he couldn't be much help, but if his death could be given some significants, if it could be twisted to their advantage then Snape should take that opportunity. Next, I believe the delay in getting the antidote to the 'Locket Horcrux' Poison was too long. Snape realized that Dumbledore was gone, he was minutes from death, so he seized the opportunity to twist the events to his advantage. 2. Why did DD trust Snape? I think we have to trust that he had his reasons. Certainly, it could have had something to do with the Potter's life or death. Perhaps, it was related specifically to Lily, but this is one of the great mysteries of the story, and I don't think there is really a way to resolve it until the last book is published. 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? People are always looking for deep meaning here, but I think the answer is a little more obvious and simple. Voldemort was at his objective, Harry, and anything else was a distration. In a sense, Voldemort wasn't saying to Lily, for my own special reasons I will spare you, he was simply saying 'get out of my way, I've got better things to do than deal with you'. Not understanding love, he couldn't imagine that no mother would ever step aside or run away, and couldn't waste a thought on the possibility. He was in the room with Harry, and Harry was his one vital objective, and that's all he cared about. So, it wasn't any kind of compassion for Lily, it was simply a matter of priorities. 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? I'm sure it means, 'remember my last communication', whatever that communication may have been. Whether it was the original letter with baby Harry, or some other letter or other communication, it's difficult to say. But I'm confident it simply means, 'remember my last/previous communication'. Someone added 'the gleem' to the list, I think the 'gleem' is like Dumbledore's trust of Snape, it's meant to be an unsolvable mystery until the final book is published and all is revealed. Steve/bboyminn From imontero at iname.com Tue Jul 26 20:30:03 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:30:03 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135075 > Shannon wrote: > I mean, yes, Fleur was arrogant and kind of awful, but that doesn't > excuse nasty nicknames and mocking. > > Tygrene: > I am using Shannon as just an example of a sentiment the resides in > a lot of the readers, that Fleur is/ was arrogant and awful. > However, I'd like to have just a little more proof that just the > opinions of people who don't like her to begin with. Luna: I don't think the problem is how Fleur looks, I think the problem is that she's plain rude and tactless... You answered your own question at the end of your message. I also come from European background, I know how it is to be called rude when all you did was to speak your mind in a very honest and straight fashion...In Anglo culture, this kind of communication is not always well received. I think this has more to do with cultural diferences than with looks... Also it has to do with the plain fact that Fleur is kind of pretentious, rubbing in everyone faces how superior she is... It is also a problem of personality. See? Even if Fleur were extremely ugly, Ginny an Molly attitude wouldn't be different... From Fabre.a at caramail.com Tue Jul 26 20:41:50 2005 From: Fabre.a at caramail.com (a_fabrefr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:41:50 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135076 Tygrene: > I am using Shannon as just an example of a sentiment the resides in > a lot of the readers, that Fleur is/ was arrogant and awful. > However, I'd like to have just a little more proof that just the > opinions of people who don't like her to begin with. I've read the post about Fleur and Molly and I must admit that at my first read I find Molly and Ginny behavior horrible. It really marred Ginny character for me. Make fun of someone in her back knowing she is going to become her sister in law is nasty and really not Griffyndor. For the rest we haven't the first meeting between Molly and Fleur and their reaction so we can have a non biased opinion about who behave bad in this case. But I must admit that for me after reading the untolerable behavior is in the Weasley side. Alexandre From tab1669 at elnet.com Tue Jul 26 20:50:08 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:50:08 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135077 I have read that alot of the people here don't like Ginny. They either did not like her before or they don't like her now for telling Hermoione for yelling at Harry. I think that had nothing to do with the fact that because Ginny can play Quiddithch. I know some of you thought thought what she said was offensive to women. That was a long time ago that people wrote about it and I don't feel like going through millions upon millions of post. Or some people thought that Ginny thought Hermione was a threat to her and thats why Harry likes Ginny. They were not even dating when she blew up on Hermione. They were all getting anoyed that Hermione was still going on about the Prince, and Ginny was the only one to put her in her place. Also if we were talking about not liking Ginny for saying something mean,what about Harry. I was re reading. Chapter six US book page 113. "Narcissa Malfoy is talking to Harry. "I see that being Dumbledore's favorite has given you a false sense of security,Harry Potter. But Dumbledore won't always be there to protect you. Harry looked mockingly all around the shop." Wow... look at that...he's not here now! SO why not have a go? They might be able to find you a double cell in Askaban with your loser of a Husband! That was way below the belt. That was really mean. That made Ginnys line look like nothing. He had to rub it in that he is in jail. flyingmonkeypurple From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 21:00:00 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:00:00 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135078 > >>Magda: > > Remember how she went on about people getting too fond of Draco > after OOTP came out? How she couldn't understand why people liked > him and said it must be Tom Felton's fault? Could a woman who was > so down on Draco have given us the more-human (still a little > prick but nonetheless three-dimensional) Draco we saw in this > book? Scared and crying and quick to refute the suggestion that he > invited a werewolf into Hogwarts where his friends lived? > >>Lupinlore: > As for your question with regard to Draco and could JKR right him > as he was in HBP if she really meant her comments, my answer > is "Yes, indeed." After all, in the three-part interview, > conducted AFTER HBP was released, she not only continued in her > excoriation of Draco but expressed her concern about those who > favored him in the most detailed explanation yet of her views. Betsy Hp: I think you're misinterperting JKR's meaning when she rips into the Draco supporters. What she's worried about, IMO, is young girls who like the bad boy *because* he's the bad boy. This is the reason I never took her seriously (and was so dismissive of those who used interview quotes to back up their "Draco is entirely bad" arguments). Because JKR *does* treat Draco sympathetically, from the very first book. Her sympathy towards Draco is right there, in black and white, from the little lost rich boy in PS/SS to the reluctant suicide bomber in HBP. > >>Lupinlore: > Why would she do that? I suspect it's because her views of > redemption and who is deserving of sympathy are rather different > than those you often find in fandom. Betsy Hp: No, I think JKR is specifically worried about the fan mail she gets from young girls who seem attracted to Draco *because* he's the bad guy at Hogwarts. There's a difference between those sort of supporters (who are setting themselves up for some very bad relationships) and those who look at the books and say, based on the information in the books, Draco really isn't a successful bad guy, in fact there's a lot of subtle hints that he's not all that evil really and JKR may take him in a different direction than at first seems apparent. For example, I tend to support Slytherin house, not because I think evil is cool, but because I don't think JKR really intended to set up one house as the bastion of evil. A young fan I know supports Slytherin because she likes snakes and is interested in dark magic (she's 12 and trying to figure herself out, I think). There's a world of difference between those two types of support, and I think JKR feels the need to try and steer the latter type of fans away from the "bad boys are cool" mind-set. Especially as those fans tend to be quite young. And I agree with Magda's over all point. Why on earth would JKR give away the answer to her books? That's another reason I'm dismissive of her interviews (especially with regards to characters like Snape and Draco) as theory foundations. Because the final destiny for Draco and especially Snape is far too important for JKR to tells us about in an interview. Betsy Hp From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 21:13:36 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:13:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapherupinabutterflynet" wrote: > Snapeophile says: > > Also, re-reading HBP, I think the comment Ginny made to > > Hermione ("Oh don't act like you understand Quidditch," > > snapped Ginny 'you'll only embarrass yourself.") > > > > This is one of the most hateful, spiteful lines in the > > entire books. I never liked Ginny, not one iota, but now > > she has fallen into the "if Voldemort gets her category, > > I don't care." > Cass says- > New member here, joining in. *waves* I agree completely. That > scene doesn't sit right with me for a couple of reasons. First, Hermione *completely* has a point- Harry should never have tried > out an obviously dark curse, even on Malfoy. The idea that Ginny > congratulates him for having a good trick up his sleeve and > disregards this makes her seem very cold- almost scary. Second, Hermione was anxious and maybe a little overbearing, but she was > never rude to Ginny. Then Ginny just comes back with something completely uncalled for and snotty. > Rizza says- Am I to understand out of all the sixbooks, this is the worst comment you could find? The situation as I saw it was that Hermione, as usual, was too engrossed in pointing out the difference between right and wrong, that she neglected to see Harry was already feeling bad about what he had done. It's one thing to say "You shouldn't have done that," and end there, but she kept going. I like the fact Hermione is level headed, and thinks before she acts, but you have to admit she does get carried away with her lectures. On the other side of it, Ginny did see Harry's remorse. Taking that and her feelings for him into account, she snapped and said something she normally wouldn't have. That's understandable- how many times does that happen in real life? It could've been worse, Ginny could have called her a 'mudblood'... Rizza PS I like BOTH Ginny and Hermione. From prep0strus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 21:16:47 2005 From: prep0strus at yahoo.com (prep0strus) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:16:47 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135080 "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > "I see that being Dumbledore's favorite has given you a false sense > of security,Harry Potter. But Dumbledore won't always be there to > protect you. Harry looked mockingly all around the shop." Wow... > look at that...he's not here now! SO why not have a go? They might > be able to find you a double cell in Askaban with your loser of a > Husband! > That was way below the belt. That was really mean. That made Ginnys > line look like nothing. He had to rub it in that he is in jail. > > flyingmonkeypurple I agree that Ginny's line wasn't really that mean, and I certainly don't get the 'offensive to women' part - I'll have to go back and read some of those posts. Yeha, she was snippy, but Hermione should be able to take it - she knows how to dish it out sometimes. And they're kids, and they're under stress. But I don't really think Harry's line was that bad either. This was the Harry I loved in this book - the Harry we saw with Scrimgeur. It's a Harry between the kind've whiny, petulant Harry we saw in 5 and the hopefully confident adult Harry we'll see by the end of the book. Sure, he still doesn't have great judgement all the time, but he's learning to channel his feelings and stand on his own. It's especially visible when he's telling Scrimgeur off for keeping Stan, and for standing firm in his defense of Dumbledore - instead of hiding behind Dumbledore, he uses him as an inner strength. So much of this book took place in Hogwarts (obviously) where I felt Harry was more wrapped up with the silly teenage relationships and his heavily restricted attempt to figure out what Draco and Snape were up to. It's the times he got out of the castle that I think his wings really got to break free. Anyway, in relation to this line specifically, it might be a little stupid, a little cheap, but she was threatening his life! When someone who's simply nasty to you, yeah, there are ways to be nasty back without going for a low blow, like mentioning her husband's prison sentence. Except, we need to remember - she's not just a nasty lady. She was basically telling Harry he's gonna be killed, and she's gonna be happy about it. I don't think there's really any blow that's too low to respond to that. What's more, her husband is in jail for attempting to kill Harry! It's not some embarassing mixup at a massage parlor or something - these are evil, evil folks. I'm not sure it was the most adult response in the world, but she deserved it, and I definately was cheering for Harry in my head for a well justified smack out at some people who need to be taken down (taken down 'a peg', but also, taken down to Azkaban themselves!) ~Prep0strus From AllieS426 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 21:21:37 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:21:37 -0000 Subject: What is easy and what is right.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135081 Next example: Draco Malfoy, being forced to try to kill Dumbledore. Although one could make the argument that although the "right" thing to do would be to refuse Voldemort, what he did certainly was not EASY for him by any means. Harry's other choice: splitting with Ginny. He felt that it was only right that he go on alone. Choosing what was right over what was easy. Allie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenn" wrote: > I've been thinking as I've waded through most of the postings, and > something DD said has > been buzzing in my ears, and I've not seen anyone post on it, though > I do admit my eyes > have blurred many times reading all these great posts on HBP. > DD told Harry (and all hogwarts students) at the speech at the end of > GOF the time was > coming when he'd have to choose between what was easy and what was > right. > > "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to > make a choice > between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a > boy who was good, > and kind, and brave, because he strayed accross the path of Lord > Voldemort." (GOF, p. 724 > american version) > > I'm thinking that Harry, in using Snape's old text, took the easy > path, and found out too late > the consequences of his action. Anyone care to comment, add examples > with other > characters? > > Poppy, who is deeply conflicted on Snape and very busy with an > 11-month old Harry of her > own. From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Tue Jul 26 21:23:50 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:23:50 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Murder = splitting the soul? References: <007e01c59218$c10d6c80$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <001b01c59228$5b78aeb0$0701010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 135082 Morgan: >> 1. Does this count all murders? Even those done for a righteous reason? If >> so, Dumbledore and most of the members of the Order would have torn souls. >> Though, of course, the difference is that they did not create a horcrux to >> save it in. >> >> 2. Does self-defense count? >> >> --Morgan > > Sherry now: > > We don't actually know that anyone in the order has committed murder, do we? > Even Dumbledore may not have. Doesn't his chocolate frog card say that he > "defeated" grindewald? That could mean something different than murder. > (snip) > However, I would say murder is murder, and there is no right cause for > murder. Soldiers have to kill the enemy, and i think that lets them off the > hook. Self-defense is also one that would let you off the hook, i think. > (more snippage) > sherry Elanor Pam now: I think it's about the feeling of killing someone. Maybe a soldier in the battlefield would get used to having to kill, but I'm sure a part of him/her would wish s/he didn't have to do that at all. Knowing that you are destroying a life will probably leave anyone feeling torn up inside. Though for a sociopath like Voldie, who can't actually think of anyone outside of himself as a living creature with its own feelings and experiences, I don't see how that would help him with a horcrux - he probably feels the same while killing as he feels when he breaks a jar. Elanor Pam _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Grtis - Internet rpida e grtis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/ From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 20:04:35 2005 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:04:35 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135083 1. Why did Snape kill DD? I think that Snape told DD about LV's plan with Draco- so DD knows he must die as if he doesn't, Draco and/or the Malfoys probably will. Naturally, DD would do anything to protect his students, and gives Harry the lessons so that Harry knows about LV when DD is inevitably dead- as BC said- to prepare him. Therefore, DD knows that Snape will have to kill him, 'to save Draco's soul'. DD asks Snape to kill him, and pleads because he knows that Snape will be alone when DD has gone. Snape, IMHO a 'good guy', will now be disregarded from the order, as the members seem to be unaware of any plans from DD, and will have to fend for himself, protecting his thoughts from LV while also being exiled? from wizarding society. 2. Why did DD trust Snape? I totally agree with just about everything BG posted, but I think rather than Snape liking? Lily, which I'm not sure, but I think BG implied, I think rather he's in love with Narcissa due to the romantisised lexis used when she was described in Spinner's End. (Just My Opinion) I think that Snape had to tell DD something about love for DD to trust him, as somewhere (sorry cant find the canon) DD implies that love is the greatest power. I don't think DD would trust Snape so implicity if Snape's secret was not about something DD believed very strongly in. just some thoughts- evil sushi From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 21:32:58 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:58 -0000 Subject: 50 Years Old... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: > > Shaista said: > > > I thought that when Harry checked the date on the HBP potions > > > book that it was 50 years old... how can that be? Snape could > > > not have been around 50 years ago... is the book perhaps, > > > secondhand? > > > > Bex: > > The book was originally Eileen Prince's passed on to her son. > > > On that theme,I rewatched the film of CoS and apparently it was 50 > years ago from when Harry opens the diary that the Chamber was > opened. At that time both Tom Riddle and Hagrid were at Hogwarts. > So it seems that Tom Riddle was at school the same time as Eileen > Prince, Snape's mother. I wonder if that has any relevance somehow? > > Also, assuming both TR and Hagrid were in their teens at the time, > that would now make their ages both in their 60s. I never realised > that Voldemort and Hagrid were that old! Anyone have any comments? > > Rita I just had a thought (probably more like a brain burp)...Tom Riddle is Snape's biological father! Now there's one for the shippers! Julie From redkleintje at hotmail.com Tue Jul 26 20:41:04 2005 From: redkleintje at hotmail.com (Floor Visser) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:41:04 +0200 Subject: Murder = splitting the soul? In-Reply-To: <20050726185034.98073.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135085 Morgan: > 1. Does this count all murders? Even those done for a righteous > reason? If so, Dumbledore and most of the members of the Order > would have torn souls. Though, of course, the difference is that > they did not create a horcrux to save it in. I thought you only split your soul through killing if you INTEND to do so. But I must admit I can't find any proof for this in the book... So, just my theory. Floor From electrawman2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 20:43:00 2005 From: electrawman2 at yahoo.com (electrawman2) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:00 -0000 Subject: Does Dung have the Horcrux? was Harry's not a Horcrux was In Essence Divided In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135086 azriona wrote: > Actually...speaking of "Black" markets....you don't suppose one > of those things that Dung was stealing from Grimmauld Place could > have been the horcrux, do you? Not a clue how it would have > gotten there, but there has to be a reason why what Dung was > stealing was important, else JKR wouldn't have included the scene. Yes, exactly! What was the point of the scene if it doesn't play out later? I thought perhaps that the cup (which has now been mentioned twice) might actually be the Hufflepuff cup in disguise, but it's doubtful that both the locket *and* the cup would end up in 12 GP, so....*shrug* "electrawman2" From nasar5 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 26 21:22:55 2005 From: nasar5 at sbcglobal.net (Nasar) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:22:55 -0000 Subject: Trevor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135087 Does anyone have any theories on Trevor the frog? My brother seems to think that he might be an animagus... he vanishes all the time and JKR does seem to put him in the plot a lot... Shaista From Fabre.a at caramail.com Tue Jul 26 21:27:42 2005 From: Fabre.a at caramail.com (a_fabrefr) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:27:42 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135089 "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > I have read that alot of the people here don't like Ginny. They > either did not like her before or they don't like her now for > telling Hermoione for yelling at Harry. I think that had nothing to > do with the fact that because Ginny can play Quiddithch. I know some > of you thought thought what she said was offensive to women. Yes but as far as we know Hermione is Harry and Ginny friend while Narcissa is not really in their inner circle ;-). I have had a problem with Ginny in HBP, part of them came from her reaction toward Fleur and her sentence toward Hermione, and part from her being nearly perfect (I mean great at Hexing great at quidditch, good look) with few flaws (beyond been full of herself. So I would like have seen a more human side. But she has next volume to redeem herself ;-). All I hope is some nice phrase toward Fleur and an understanding between them, and see a more faillible Ginny. Alexandre From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 21:42:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:42:34 -0000 Subject: Back to School (was:Apparation Test ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janine R. Shahinian" wrote: > >Karen wrote: > > > > I am starting to belive the worst that they really are not going > > back to school. > Janine: > ... > > I feel pretty certain that Harry will go back to Hogwarts even if > it's just to go back to the Room of Requirement. ... > > ... > So, for all we know, that tarnished tiara on top of the wig might > be the Ravenclaw relic. Bottom line, though, Harry will make a visit > to Hogwarts. > > - Janine bboyminn: People seem to be taking an All-or-Nothing approach to Harry returning to the Hogwarts. I guess part of it depends on whether you thing Harry will truly start training in ernest, or whether he will continue to remain clueless and blunder his way through to victory. Logically, he will certainly return to Hogwarts again, but whether he returns as a normal student, or whether he returns for special training by the Professors, or to recover his precious 'Prince' Potions book remains to be seen. I think Harry's best course of action would be for Harry to take up residence at 12 Grimmauld Place, re-Secret Keeper it with himself as the Secret Keeper, then re-establish it as the headquarters of the new Order of the Phoenix. The new purpose of the new Order would be training Harry (and Ron and Hermione) and looking for clues to the remaining Horcruxes. Part of that training would include periodically venturing to Hogwarts in the evening for specialized training from all the remaining Professors. Part of it would be training and general instruction from members of the Order. The remainder of time would be spent looking for the Horcruxes. I can also see him periodically venturing into the Ministry of Magic offices for help and information. Although, I think he will continue to refuse to help the Ministry in it's policial efforts. None the less, he will, through a trace of coercion, enlist the help of the Minstry. Sadly, as logical as it seems, I'm not convinced that Harry won't continue with his blundering forward approach. It will be somewhat disappointing if Harry just stumbles around, and 'magically' finds the remaining Hercruxes. Personally, as you can tell, I think it's time for Harry to start getting serious, and to take advantage of every resource he has available to him. That's what I think /should/ happen, but as I said, I'm not convinced it will. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:02:48 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:02:48 -0000 Subject: Ron not a hero yet? Was: Re: Second Reading /Re: Murder = splitting the sou In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135091 Richard Jones: > On the positive side, I was surprised how mature Harry seemed. I had > expected him to be an emotional wreck after the death of Sirius and > the revelations of OOTP. Apparently he is very resilient. As for > Ron ? well, Ron is still Ron. If Ron is going to become a hero in > Book 7, he is going to have to change dramatically all of a sudden. Alla: OK, I am very honestly curious about this point. Why do you think Ron has to change if he is about to be come a hero? Actually, let me disclaim couple of things first, because I would prefer not to get objections,which are not exactly relevant to my mindset. For those who don't know, I don't care much about shipping. I mean I DO care about kids ( or teens now) characters very much, but I first and foremost care about friendship bond between the Trio and I want to see them alive and happy at the end I guess I just don't think that seventeen year olds are obligated to find their soulmates while they are still in school. Having said all that, I DID think that JKR was being incredibly clear that Ron and Hermione will get together, that is it. I did not think it was just as clear in regards to Harry/Ginny though. I don't know if I like R/H pairing all that much, but I know I would like H/H even less. Right, now back to Ron. Don't you think that Ron is already a hero with all his flaws? At the age of eleven he did not hesitate to put himself in the line of fire in the chess game. At the age of twelve he knows really well why "mudblood" is a very offensive word to say. ( Something which Dumbledore has to explain to Draco at the age of sixteen, but I digress) At the age of thirteen he is willing to be killed by Sirius while protecting Harry. I don't know, I think that on the major issues this boy figured out eally well where his priorities lie. I don't think he needs any convincing to come to "the right side". Richard Jones: > I bet when the series is over that fans will become divided into two > camps ? those who prefer books 1 to 4 and those who prefer books 5 to > 7. Alla: I don't know. So far I loved 1-4, enjoyed OOP significantly less and found HBP to be very exciting. JMO, Alla Floor: > I thought you only split your soul through killing if you INTEND to > do so. But I must admit I can't find any proof for this in the book... So, just my theory. Alla: I think that splitting your soul when you create Horcrux is a metaphor for "any murder hurts your Soul", no? From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:08:14 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:08:14 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135092 > >>Janeway: > Your distinction between an omniscient!Dumbledore and a more > measured not-a-fool!Dumbledore is well taken. But I don't agree > that being wrong about Snape is so much more idiotic than being > wrong about, say, LV residing in the back of Quirrel's head. > Betsy Hp: For me it's a question of degees. Dumbledore knew from pretty early on that Quirrell was not to be trusted. He didn't realize that Voldemort had taken up residence in the back of Quirrell's head (and frankly, I'm not surprised at that), but he didn't take Quirrell into his inner circle. Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the impression that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. If Snape does turn out to have been Voldemort's man all along, it means Dumbledore was *completely* fooled. For the Quirrell mistake to even come close, IMO, Dumbledore would have had to have sent Quirrell in Hagrid's place to collect Harry and the Stone in the beginning of PS/SS. > >>Janeway: > But if Quirrel or Diary!Tom or Fake!Moody or any of them had been > successful in killing the "chosen one", it would also have been > wrong in a "the Order just lost the war" sort of way too. Betsy Hp: Again, for me it's a question of degree here. Because Dumbledore is *so* much more complicit in Snape's case. *Dumbledore* is the one who brought Snape in. *Dumbledore* is the one who chose to trust him so completely. If Harry had died under Fake!Moody's wand in GoF, yes, Dumbledore would feel some guilt in being deceived by him. But I wouldn't feel such a sense of "Dumbledore, you fool." Because Fake!Moody tricked *everyone*. No one was going up to Dumbledore saying, "you know, Moody just said the most out-of- character thing,". Snape, however, is very much Dumbledore's baby. McGonagall suggests that the entire Order thought it strange that he was so trusted. (I'd also add that the reason Harry *didn't* die under Fake!Moody's wand is because Dumbledore realized so quickly that Fake!Moody did something out of character and, following his instincts, decided *not* to trust him.) > >>Janeway: > I agree, it would be devastating to find out that Dumbledore is a > fool. But I don't think that trusting Snape makes DD a fool, even > if Snape turns out to be ESE. When you trust someone you open > yourself up to be hurt by them. It's a risk. You have to be very > strong and very brave to be able to trust. DD uses his strength to > give people second chances, and most of them have paid off (think > of the difference it made to Hagrid, Lupin, Sirius... and of > course to Tom and Snape as well). > Betsy Hp: But Dumbledore *didn't* trust Tom. He totally suspected that Tom was playing the rest of the WW for fools despite Tom's so very charming ways. And Dumbledore was right. Yes, it takes strength to trust, but you shouldn't be a complete idiot about it. Dumbledore gave Tom a chance (he let him come to Hogwarts) but he never seemed to really *trust* him (he didn't hire him on as a professor). And Dumbledore, being a relatively wise man, wouldn't fall for any run of the mill, "I've done wrong, and I'm *so* sorry" story to come along. After all, we don't see him clutching Lucius close to his breast, empathising over the wrongs Lucius must have suffered whilst under the control of that terrible brute, Voldemort. Dumbledore took Snape in as a reformed Death Eater and trusted him enough to send him back out as a spy. Knowing that this would entail Snape making split decisions on his own in the field, knowing that Snape would need to give Voldemort a good story as to why he was still at Hogwarts and working for Dumbledore. The obvious question would be, is he trustworthy. Which means, to my mind, that Dumbledore would have explored that question thoroughly. I'm not suggesting that any kind of spy within the Order means that Dumbledore is a fool. Most spies (Peter is a good example, Fake! Moody is another) would have tried to fly under the radar, escape Dumledore's notice. Snape, by definition, was right in Dumbledore's face. If Snape really is ESE it means that Dumbledore examined that question and came up with the completely wrong answer. It would mean, in other words, that Dumbledore is a fool. And it would mean, IMO, that any "wisdom" he passed along to Harry would be suspect. Betsy Hp From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Tue Jul 26 22:12:02 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:12:02 -0000 Subject: Back to School (was:Apparation Test ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboyminn: > > I think Harry's best course of action would be for Harry to take up > residence at 12 Grimmauld Place, re-Secret Keeper it with himself as > the Secret Keeper, then re-establish it as the headquarters of the new > Order of the Phoenix. > > The new purpose of the new Order would be training Harry (and Ron and > Hermione) and looking for clues to the remaining Horcruxes. Part of > that training would include periodically venturing to Hogwarts in the > evening for specialized training from all the remaining Professors. > Part of it would be training and general instruction from members of > the Order. The remainder of time would be spent looking for the Horcruxes. Rizza: I don't think Harry will be including the Order in his search for the Horcruxes. If, you remember, he refused to tell McGonagall about them when she asked. Though I doubt he will reveal this information to anyone, he might confide in Lupin, only because they're practically each other's family, and share a strong history. I see this happening of course mostly as a last resort, if he saw clearly that Lupin would be able to help him in the search. Whether or not Ron and Hermione join him throughout the entire mission, weshall see... bboyminn wrote: >Personally, as you can tell, I think it's time for Harry to start > getting serious, and to take advantage of every resource he has > available to him. That's what I think /should/ happen, but as I said, > I'm not convinced it will. Rizza wrote: I definitely believe Harry willbe serious throughout his entire journey. He might get lucky once or twice, but he won't fumble. To him Dumbledore's death was the last straw. He's realized more than ever how much he wants to kill Voldemort and avenge the death of his parents, Sirius and now Dumbledore. He knows there's no time to waste, and it's now or never. *Rizza* From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:21:43 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:21:43 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135094 > > Betsy Hp: > Again, for me it's a question of degree here. Because Dumbledore is > *so* much more complicit in Snape's case. *Dumbledore* is the one > who brought Snape in. *Dumbledore* is the one who chose to trust > him so completely. If Harry had died under Fake!Moody's wand in > GoF, yes, Dumbledore would feel some guilt in being deceived by > him. But I wouldn't feel such a sense of "Dumbledore, you fool." > Because Fake!Moody tricked *everyone*. No one was going up to > Dumbledore saying, "you know, Moody just said the most out-of- > character thing,". Snape, however, is very much Dumbledore's baby. > McGonagall suggests that the entire Order thought it strange that he > was so trusted. > > (I'd also add that the reason Harry *didn't* die under Fake!Moody's > wand is because Dumbledore realized so quickly that Fake!Moody did > something out of character and, following his instincts, decided > *not* to trust him.) Alla: Well, if there IS a difference, I think in the case of Fake!Moody there is very little difference. Moody is Dumbledore's trusted old friend, he supposedly knew him for many years, we know that they fought together in the first war and who knows, maybe even for longer. And he still did not figure out that Moody was not Moody. Moreover, just as in case with Snape Dumbledore brought him to school, and let him get so close to Harry. Oh, and what do you mean that Dumbledore quickly figured out that Fake!Moody did something out of character? He was fooled for a year, no? I think that IF Dumbledore was wrong to trust Snape the case of Fake! Moody is the best foreshadowing example of that. Betsy HP: > If Snape really is ESE it means that Dumbledore examined that > question and came up with the completely wrong answer. It would > mean, in other words, that Dumbledore is a fool. And it would mean, > IMO, that any "wisdom" he passed along to Harry would be suspect. Alla: Well, yes. Just as he evaluated a question whether Moody ws really a Moody, just as he evaluated a question whether Quirrel is to be trustworthy and even though people argued that Snape went to Dumbledore with his suspicions, I am SO not sure after HBP. To me it would mean that Dumbledore just comitted another mistake in his evaluation of people. It would not be his first, but definitely his last. :-( JMO Alla. From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:36:31 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726223631.53830.qmail@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135095 --- a_fabrefr wrote: > "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > > I have read that alot of the people here don't like Ginny. They > > either did not like her before or they don't like her now for > > telling Hermoione for yelling at Harry. I think that had nothing > to > > do with the fact that because Ginny can play Quiddithch. I know > some > > of you thought thought what she said was offensive to women. > > > > Yes but as far as we know Hermione is Harry and Ginny friend while > Narcissa is not really in their inner circle ;-). > I have had a problem with Ginny in HBP, part of them came from her reaction toward > Fleur and her sentence toward Hermione, and part from her being nearly perfect (I mean > great at Hexing great at quidditch, > good look) with few flaws (beyond been full of herself. So I would > like have seen a more human side. But she has next volume to redeem > herself ;-). All I hope is some nice phrase toward Fleur and an > understanding between them, and see a more faillible Ginny. > Alexandre The problem I have with Ginny is not that she is without flaws, JKR spared her a bit here and there. But it is that her 'flaws' are not supposed to be view as 'unpleasant' by the author; they're supposed to make her real, endearing and interesting. So the problem is really how JKR handle her character, which felt forced to me, and that puts me off. All the supposedly 'kind & compassionate' qualities the great and fine Ginny supposed to have are *told* to us through other characters, hardselling like a radio advertisment, instead of showing. And readers are pound over the head constantly: to admire her as a tough cookie, to look up to as the strongest female role-model who would never cried or let a man to act with that gentlemen crap toward her; to desire her dazzling beauty; to be in awe by her goddess greatness and resemblence to Fred & George + Ron + Molly + Lily (etc.). That just irked me as a reader, because whenever Ginny appears on page what I see is this smug girl who mocked other women behind their back, who tell off a crying nurse in deep grief to *shut the hell up* at funeral, who is catty that no one can dare to admire another woman's beauty in front of her, who went up and arm against all those who dare to tell off their men, yet would never compete with them or jealous of them, despite she's a capable seeker herself, because a perfect girl would never steal nor threaten Harry's spotlight. A perfect girl is always so convenient like that! so ideal! A true 'equal' in a non-threatening, supporting way. I'm also sick of fictions that reinforcing the girl (whom he only started caring in a year ago, and gone out for few months) as the single most important person in the hero's life. So Ginny is the love of Harry's life, therefore she is the no.1 most dangerous target for the villain. Yet the two dearest friends who are like Harry's family for 7 years are in no danger that the hero should concern for. And the silly villain would always go for the girlfriend blah blah. All the scenarios and setup that dealt with Ginny was just...*roll my eyes* I ended up completely oblivious to this supposed greatest love between Harry and Ginny. In fact it tainted Harry's character for me. I fear this would be the fatal downfall of this series for me, if this greatest love for Ginny is supposed to be source of Harry's super duper extrordinary power (that no other has), and the one true thing that matter most in defeating Voldemort. D. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:52:44 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:52:44 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135096 > Betsy Hp: > >Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the impression > that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. If Snape does turn > out to have been Voldemort's man all along, it means Dumbledore was > *completely* fooled. > And if Narcissa to be believed Snape is pretty much Voldemort's second what with Lucius being is in jail and Bellatrix in disgrace. I think HBP makes it pretty clear that he's first and foremost his own man ? as a true Slytherin is supposed to be. But I agree with you: Dumbledore was many things but fool he wasn't. I believe his so called "trust" in Snape was based on something more compelling than a tale of remorse. I think they had had a bargain of some kind that quite probably involved another Unbreakable Vow. And Dumbledore with his "well-organized mind" could cold-bloodedly plan his own death as a kind of a gambit that would enable the Order and, more importantly, Harry to win. To carry out such a plan he would have needed Snape ? no other member of the Order would agree to kill him. Which, incidentally, doesn't make Snape a good guy by any stretch of imagination. a_svirn From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:59:11 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:59:11 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the impression > that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. If Snape does turn > out to have been Voldemort's man all along, it means Dumbledore was > *completely* fooled. Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. I suspect that we've been overestimating how much Dumbledore actually tells Snape, in the sense of planning things out as an explicit line of attack. It seems much more Dumbledore's style to let Snape go his own way, and then only step in when necessary. I can't see the good cop/bad cop team that's been hypothesized, anymore. I really can't see the idea that Dumbledore and Snape set up half the things we've tended to think they have. > Snape, however, is very much Dumbledore's baby. McGonagall > suggests that the entire Order thought it strange that he was so > trusted. I'd say the theme of second-hand trust and its dangers was a huge one throughout the book--I do a little dance at having called that one absolutely dead on. :) > If Snape really is ESE it means that Dumbledore examined that > question and came up with the completely wrong answer. It would > mean, in other words, that Dumbledore is a fool. And it would > mean, IMO, that any "wisdom" he passed along to Harry would be > suspect. This seems to me to be excluding some potential pathos and latitude here, which is that Dumbledore could have been partly right and partly wrong in trusting Snape. That is to say, there could have been reasons good enough for Dumbledore to trust Snape, but given Dumbledore's canonical personality flaws, he failed to pick up the lingering resentments and dangers within Snape's personality and character. Snape could have changed or slid *after* he told Dumbledore his story, which would make the whole situation Deeply Tragic. Given the pretty solid confirmation of Rowling as an essentialist who believes in character, I wouldn't be shocked. [See the Gaunt family story...] I wouldn't be surprised if part of the lesson is indeed that while Dumbledore is very wise, Harry is going to have to surpass him in the field of action and not make his same mistakes, not merely be someone following Dumbledore's lead. And that means not taking Dumbledore's word as law, but investigating upon his own, maintaining and checking close personal ties as opposed to taking the hands-off approach. -Nora notes that the essentialism sits uneasily upon her shoulders, but that it's been there in flaring lights since book 2 at least From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:13:55 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:13:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron-did Lavender imperious curse him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jon Loux" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > > HI Potterphiles! > > My question is: Why did Ron ask Lavender out? > > I'm more puzzled by why Lavender was so head over heals in love with > Won-won. One minute Ron is just realizing that every one of his > friends has scored in one form or another, except for him. The next he > has a doting lady friend. I wondered if Ron had given Lavender a love > potion. That whole scene reads like A Midsummer Night's Dream. > > Jon. Lorel responds: As a former teenager and current Middle School teacher, I found this completely plausible. Early on in the school year in HBP, Lavender is staring at Ron (I can't pinpoint the moment right now); on p. 172 (US ed.), she giggles loudly at something Ron says. She may be attracted to Ron because of his status (as noted in a previous reply) as quidditch keeper and prefect, or she may have simply returned from summer vacation thinking that Ron's a lot better-looking than she had remembered. Either way, Lavender's attraction to Ron was set up quite early. As far as Ron's response to her, I bet he /thought/ he was genuinely attracted to her appearance or personality, but in reality was indeed going with her simply because she'd indicated she'd have him, combined with his siblings' taunts and the resultant pressure to prove himself. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:15:04 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:15:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione vs Snape and the Weasley Twins (wasRe: Am I the only one... AND why...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135099 > >>Milz: > > Alot of readers have inflated Hermione's abilities to that of HBP > and have compared her to HBP. HBP is truly talented and gifted to > be able to improve on the textbook's instructions: > > I've many times said before, Hermione isn't a dummy, but she's not > on the same intellectual level of HBP or the Weasley Twins. Until > she can demonstrate that she belongs in this class, we should > refrain from deluding ourselves that she is. > Betsy Hp: You're overlooking one major difference between Hermiony and Snape and the Weasley twins. Hermiony is Muggle-born. *Everything* in the WW is brand-spanking-new to her when she gets her Hogwarts letter. She doesn't have her mom's old text books to pour through. She doesn't have any older brothers talking shop around her. Hermione is starting completely from scratch. Plus, Hermione *cannot* practice any kind of magic at home. Both Snape and the Weasley twins have the cover of their magical families to hide behind. We know for a fact that the Weasley twins have been working on their inventions for years. The random explosions coming out of their rooms are a normal part of the Weasley household when Harry first comes to visit. (And somehow I doubt young Snape worried about the Underage Use of Magic laws either.) So when you compare those four, remember Hermione is working under a serious handicap. (I'd also throw in something about ethics and how Hermione is probably a little reluctant to come up with new stuff by testing them out on first years and team-mates, but that's whole 'nother ball of wax. ) Betsy Hp From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:16:10 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:16:10 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135100 flyingmonkeypurple wrote: Chapter six US book page 113. "Narcissa Malfoy is talking to Harry. "I see that being Dumbledore's favorite has given you a false sense of security,Harry Potter. But Dumbledore won't always be there to protect you. Harry looked mockingly all around the shop." Wow... look at that...he's not here now! SO why not have a go? They might be able to find you a double cell in Askaban with your loser of a Husband! That was way below the belt. That was really mean. That made Ginnys line look like nothing. He had to rub it in that he is in jail. vmonte responds: Now we are feeling sorry for Narcissa? Why Harry should show this family any respect at all is beyond me?! Don't kid yourself that Narcissa is a "good" person. Am glad that she loves her kid and all but that doesn't mean that she's good. You know what they say: "The family that kills together..." Doesn't she threaten Harry in your quote? Didn't her husband almost kill Harry at the graveyard (GoF) and later during OOTP? Isn't her son a Nazi? I think Harry was too nice. I would have told her to meet me outside in the alley... Vivian From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:18:54 2005 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:18:54 -0000 Subject: July 16 and RAB (was Re: False Identity? RAB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > Jen Reese : > For starters, we have the interview with JKR: > > > > JKR: Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone > > would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I > > think that is ? well, I hoped that people would. > > > > Janeway: > What this really made me wonder is whether the date had some > significance. Was she just being a little goofy, or is there > something relevant about July 16 in relation to R.A.B.? I don't know > my HP timeline well enough to know what might have happened on this > date... anyone else have any ideas about what this might be? > > Janeway Lorel responds: I read this as JKR was hoping that some readers would have caught on so quickly to this, as if she's laid enough clues for people to figure it out. Either that, or she's commenting along the lines of, "hey, jsut this morning I was thinking of that too." I don't recall any significance of July 16 in the books - that's before Harry's birthday, and very little has happened over summer break before his birthday. From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:25:31 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Minor details about Snape in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726232531.82832.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135102 While most people focus on the "is Snape evil or not?" grand debate, there're some tiny details about Snape in HBP that tend to be overlooked. I wonder if these can add onto any of the 10,000 theories that only Snape can spawned. 1. Harry remarked that Snape disagree with him on the best method to fight dementor. I wonder if this would come up in book 7? What is Snape unorthodox way other than Patronus? Or is this going to be one of many Snape's creative alternative ways (like his Princely notes) to compensate his inability to conjure a powerful patronus because he seems too bitter to have true happy thought, nor having a positive, strong father figure? 2. Harry specially noted that Snape used an unknown healing spell that sounded like a song. It heals Malfoy's deep bloody cut fast and well. No one in the series so far seems to use this before (or I don't remember ever reading about it). It was stressed how near perfect it healed facial wound that Harry wonder about it again at the end at hospital room when he saw Bill's mangled face. What could the song-like healing spell be and if it will come up again in book 7? D. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 23:06:51 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:06:51 -0000 Subject: Trevor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nasar" wrote: > Does anyone have any theories on Trevor the frog? My brother seems to > think that he might be an animagus... he vanishes all the time and JKR > does seem to put him in the plot a lot... > > Shaista Well thats a new one! Good thinking but I don't remember Trevor featuring in HBP (I just may have forgotten however) so I can't see how he would fit in the plot as another character's animagus form. I always thought that Trevor's escapades were just for entertainment factor. But you've got me thinking now...... Auria From Nanagose at aol.com Tue Jul 26 23:08:57 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:08:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... Message-ID: <198.43952177.30181c89@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135104 Milz: >> Never said Hermione lacks intelligence. I've stated that she's not >> on the same plane of intellect as HBP or Fred and George. Christina: According to Sirius (GF pg 25), "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year..." We know that Snape's maternal side of the family is magical. How did Snape know so many curses? Either somebody tutored him or he read a lot of books as a child. Either way, he had enough time before coming to Hogwarts to explore the magical arts and develop a great deal of base knowledge. Hermione is Muggle-born. She didn't have access to magical books until she got her Hogwarts letter, and there was nobody in her family to tutor her in the magical arts. Her education began considerably later. Before innovation can take place, it is necessary to have a secure foothold in the basics. Hermione starts out a good few years behind Snape, just by virtue of her birth (we can assume that once she did find out she was a witch, she gobbled up information, seeing as she lists several books she has read before coming to Hogwarts). I would give her a few years to catch up to Snape before declaring that his genius so far surpasses hers. Christina From nifer819 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:33:27 2005 From: nifer819 at yahoo.com (nifer819) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:33:27 -0000 Subject: July 16 and RAB (was Re: False Identity? RAB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135105 Jen Reese : For starters, we have the interview with JKR: JKR: Today, just today, July the 16th, I was really hoping someone would ask me about R.A.B., and you did it. Just today, because I think that is ? well, I hoped that people would. Janeway: What this really made me wonder is whether the date had some significance. Was she just being a little goofy, or is there something relevant about July 16 in relation to R.A.B.? I don't know my HP timeline well enough to know what might have happened on this date... anyone else have any ideas about what this might be? nifer819: Is it possible that JKR has slipped us a clue somewhere other than the book? Her website perhaps? What was on her desk calendar that day? Was it the birthday of a character with the initials R.A.B.? From sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 22:05:50 2005 From: sophiapriskilla at yahoo.com (hekatesheadband) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:05:50 -0000 Subject: Age, integrity, and the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135106 hekatesheadband: First off, there's the cheating/plaigarism issue. I think there may be some cultural issues that are easy to overlook, namely with respect to the differences between academic cultures in North America and Britain and Ireland. I'm an expatriate Yank (hence my perennial idiomatic inconsistency) with a rather bizarre personal cultural background, so I'll have to ask everyone to bear with me a bit on this one. Poppy: Julie: Jim Ferer: hekatesheadband: It's noteworthy that Hermione, conscience and rulebook among lions, never presents it in that way, despite her disapproval of the book for other reasons. Note also that the students often rely heavily on one another's written work, again with no mention of cheating or plaigarism. (Then again, I don't know how Binns would actually read their work, if he can't hold solid objects...) There clearly are standards for academic integrity at Hogwarts - answer quills and crib sheets for examinations, for example, are forbidden. But when Hermione tells Neville how to make a potion in PoA, Snape uses this as grounds to belittle Neville for stupidity and Hermione for being an interfering know-it-all. He doesn't punish them for cheating. (In Hermione's place, I probably would have just AK'd Snape for threatening a poor toad in the first place, but that's for another day.) He does call Harry "a liar and a cheat" in HBP, but at this point he's thrown so many insults at Harry (sneak, celebrity, swollen-headed, nasty little boy, what have you) that none of them have much effect - they are fairly generic. And Snape doesn't report Harry to McGonagall or Dumbledore for cheating - which, based on McGonagall's pre-O.W.L. remarks in OotP, seems to be the usual policy for such infractions. It's also my impression - and correct me if I'm wrong, as I may well be - that definitions of academic cheating are culturally variable, and North American ones are considered unususally stringent - to the point that it wouldn't even occur to most Europeans to think of Harry's behaviour as cheating. (I'm thinking in particular of some teachers from both sides of exchanges with France, Australia, Britain, Russia, and Latin America. Granted that Latin America is not a part of Europe.;) It would be considered cheating if he actually wrote a major paper copied directly from the Prince (not possible, since there are only notes), if he looked at the book during an examination, or, if there are wizarding journals and research forums, he presented the Prince's findings as his own original work. However, following another person's variant of set instructions for an exercise or a practicum would not generally qualify. Jim Ferer: weildman: hekatesheadband: I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm a denizen of the geeky academic world myself, so I just find myself wanting to shout at Snape: If you care so much about the "noble art and subtle science of potion-brewing," why don't you act to ennoble it further! How can someone who claims to care so much about potions make the core of his curriculum the following of instructions he knows to be inadequate? Granted, he may have wanted students to experiment for themselves - but with the way he berates them for failure when they do deviate from the book's directions, how can he expect that they would ever dare it? There would be no need to spoon-feed it to them: the occasional "Arsenius Jigger says to do X, but I find that Y can also be useful" or "For homework, think of how you might modify these instructions, and explain them." He's never done anything like. As for the chronology issue - I think even JK Rowling, for all her difficulties mathematical, could figure out that if the book is too old to have belonged to James' classmates, and Snape is the same age as James (or would be, if James were alive), the book is too old to be Snape's. Bex: > The book was originally Eileen Prince's passed on to her son.< hekatesheadband: What occurred to me, when I first read HBP, is maybe it's that Severus Snape's handwriting is very similar to Eileen Prince's, and that at least some of the notes in the book are probably hers. (Harry checks "the date," which can't be a pre-printed year of issue, because that wouldn't distinguish it from other copies.) In fact, one could argue that most of the potions notes are hers, and that Snape got his knowledge much the same way as Harry! After all, what angered Snape at Harry was specifically the use of a curse, not a potion. That's just a wild hypothesis, at least until book 7, but it's probably worth a thought. The handwriting is termed "feminine," an issue tantalizingly left dangling, and Harry doesn't recognise it as Snape's. He's seen Snape's handwriting before, and handwriting typically doesn't change much after a person has learned to write "fluently." Anyway, just fodder for thought until book 7 disproves us all. But it's plenty of fun 'til then! -hekatesheadband (maybe it's the Sorting Hat that's Bono) From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 26 23:47:27 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:47:27 -0000 Subject: The textbook and the diary (Re: Am I the only one... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135107 Milz wrote (message 135069): "Why should she question the instructions now? Because they are faulty, that's why. The mere fact that she can't bring herself to acknowledge that a book is wrong or deficient is an example of why Hermione doesn't think outside of the box. Within the "box", textbooks are correct, unquestionable. Yet, the box in this case is faulty---the readers know it's faulty, Hermione knows it's faulty, Harry and Ron know it's faulty. But she is insistent that it is correct. She only follows what convention tells her to follow even if it is wrong: that's intellectual stagnation. Rather than questioning and trying to problem solve, she accepts the faulty book information as fact---in other words, her intellectual curiosity is diminished to non-existent due to her overdependency on the books." Iris now: Maybe and maybe not. I'm sorry if this has been said already but I didn't have enough time to read the whole thread. I just wanted to tell you that in my opinion, Hermione, though she loves them, doesn't consider the books are always reliable. Okay, in this book it seems at first sight that Hermione doesn't want to "think outside the box" concerning Potions. However, we have to remember that in OotP, chapter 12 she criticizes what the DADA textbook says, and she's the first one to do it. The DADA book Umbridge wants them to learn from isn't "efficient" enough, Hermione doesn't trust it and asks Harry for DADA lessons. The book isn't useful, because "there's nothing written about using defensive spells", so Hermione rejects it, even if it belongs to the conventional program, and she tries to get information from another, more reliable source. So, why isn't she ready to listen to what the Prince has to say concerning Potions, when it's obvious he knows much more than the author of the textbook? Her negative reaction can seem contradictory if we consider her thirst of knowledge: Hermione Granger not wanting to know more, doesn't it sound strange? Except if we admit that JK Rowling wants her readers to guess that the HBP's textbook isn't that "friendly". Hermione spends her time warning Harry, saying this book is dangerous, and I think she's completely sincere. When Harry says the book is useful because it told him to use a bezoar as an antidote, she replies he'd better have remembered Snape's first lesson. Hermione has a very good memory, and not only concerning books. What I'm trying to explain is that she perfectly understood, learned and remembers the lesson Tom Riddle's diary taught them all. She doesn't want to learn from the Prince, not because his book isn't conventional, but because her intuition tells her to be defiant and not to trust him. It's only my opinion, but I think that, through Hermione's negative reaction, JK Rowling is warning the readers; she wants them to understand there's something strange concerning that textbook. Obviously, we can draw a parallel between the Prince's book and Riddle's diary. Let's see: ? Both books come from the past and belong to someone who was a Hogwarts student before Harry. ? Both times Harry gets them unwillingly. ? Both book's owner seem "friendly" at first sight (Tom, because he made Harry believe he was there to help him, and the Prince, because his corrections did "help" Harry in a difficult subject). ? Both books turn out to be dangerous (the diary contains a part of Voldemort's soul, and the textbook contains the Sectumsempra hex). And you probably can find other parallels. As always, JK Rowling tells us what the book is actually, but immediately, she manages to mislead us. Why wouldn't we trust the textbook, given that Harry himself tells us reassuringly "It's nothing; it's not like, you know, Riddle's diary. It's just an old textbook someone's scribbled in"? He has so many brainwaves in this sixth novel, dear Harry. And of course, he's right in a sort of way, because there won't be any Prince bursting from the book in order to kill him. But he's also mistaken: the textbook has to be used carefully, like the diary. And what happens to Harry because of it looks a bit like what happened to Ginny with the diary: first it is an accomplice (Ginny has what she considers as an understanding confident for the first time in her teen age life; Harry follows the textbook instructions and has excellent results in Potions for the very first time in six years), and then it makes them do what they couldn't even imagine and what they regret (Ginny opens the Chamber and sets the Basilisk free; Harry hurts Draco). So, I don't call Hermione's rejection of the Prince's helpful corrections "depending on books" or lack of intelligence or of intellectual curiosity. She loves books, she uses them, but she's also able to question them and she doesn't trust them necessarily, precisely because she's intelligent and wise. It takes intelligence to think out of the box. But sometimes, it takes wisdom to resist the temptation of thinking out of the same box. Maybe Hermione looks a bit too conventional, for example when we compare her to the twins. But is it such a bad thing when we compare her to Tom Riddle? He used to think out of the box we know what happened. And we could find examples of this very difficult topic in real life. And that's also a debate for philosophers. I'd like to end this post saying that HBP is probably the most complex book in the series so far. Its complexity doesn't root necessarily in the plot or in the construction. It's rather in the ideas we have to face every time we try to analyze what there's between its pages, or when we try to debate about it. But that's of course just my opinion, concerning the HBP book, and concerning Hermione. Amicalement, Iris From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 21:52:54 2005 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:52:54 -0000 Subject: Back to School (was:Apparation Test ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135108 "Steve" wrote: > The new purpose of the new Order would be training Harry (and Ron > and Hermione) and looking for clues to the remaining Horcruxes. Part > of that training would include periodically venturing to Hogwarts in > the evening for specialized training from all the remaining > Professors. Part of it would be training and general instruction from > members of the Order. The remainder of time would be spent looking > for the Horcruxes. But noone from the Order knows about the Horcruxes and it would be too dangerous (and against Dumbledore's wishes) to tell them. Only the Trio know (and Voldemort of course). I agree with the larger point, that perhaps Harry will come back for part of the year - I suspect he will learn something at Godric's Hollow that will show the necessity of returning to search for something at Hogwarts. Whether or not he will be back as a full time student, I doubt. We know we have read the last Quidditch match... Rolshan From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:40:36 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:40:36 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135109 vmonte responds: > Now we are feeling sorry for Narcissa? Why Harry should show this > family any respect at all is beyond me?! Don't kid yourself that > Narcissa is a "good" person. Am glad that she loves her kid and all > but that doesn't mean that she's good. You know what they say: "The > family that kills together..." > You had me rolling around laughing at this comment! I think the intention behind the original post of flying monkey goes back to Dumbledore's example. It's about manners, and just because one person is evil doesn't mean you are ever allowed to stoop to their level. In words or spells casted (like the unforgivable curses). In either instance, what makes you of a different breed, then? "S/he started it first" just doesn't seem to fly (or so I have learned in the several times I tried it) :). Casmir From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:54:27 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape right about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726235427.48858.qmail@web32705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135110 lupinlore wrote: They are scrupulously fair, reasonable, and patient. Unfortunately those qualities can shade swiftly into indecisiveness, passivity, and (to use a very loaded word) out and out weakness. I think Remus at the Xmas celebration is operating very close to the dividing line, and sometimes steps over it. My response to his statement "I neither like nor dislike Severus Snape" was a snort followed by "Yeah, now tell me the one about the tooth fairy." His statements "You are determined to hate him... And I understand" garnered the response from me, "Okay, I'm very impressed. Now get your rear off the fence and join the rest of us in a world where we have to take sides, get our hands dirty, and put up with the consequences. It won't kill your furry rear end if somebody actually gets mad and doesn't like you." Lynn: Well, actually, it could kill his furry rear end. Remember, he's living with the werewolves and, since many are listening to Greyback, they could very easily be turned against him. All it would take is a word from Snape. I agree that Lupin is walking a line but I don't think it is the one you're referring to. I think he's walking the line between total trust in Dumbledore's wisdom and following it and questioning Dumbledore's wisdom. He has a loyalty to Dumbledore because Dumbledore gave him a chance when others would not. It does nothing to carry emotions that can cause devisiveness within the Order. I think it is his loyalty to Dumbledore that causes him to be cautious in what he says rather than who he really is. I think there is a strength to Lupin that we will hopefully see in the next book. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From muellem at bc.edu Tue Jul 26 23:56:08 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:56:08 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135111 doesn't anyone want to read/remark on my theory? I feel so unloved.... colebiancardi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135011 reposting, as it is her second post for the day......I've added a 4th possiblity, as well. Since Regulus is a "hot" topic, I thought I was onto something here :( > Colebiancardi now: > Before I jump into it, > other posters have given "clues" to my theory on why Snape deserted > the DE's, became DD's trusted man and why he still is a nasty bastard > to Harry. > > Tonks wrote: > > When Snape finds out that LV is going to kill James and Snape has a > life debit to James, this scares Snape. There is some serious bad, > bad magic that happen when you have a life debit to someone and then > that person is killed because of something that you have done. It > may be some sort of a cursed life, like one gets from drinking the > blood of a unicorn. > > > Roberta wrote: > > Incidentally, in GoF, Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust > of Snape is between him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. > This too suggests that there is more to it than Snape's repentance > over betraying Harry's parents, which *is* Harry's business. > > Caro wrote: > Then later Regulus himself discovered what Voldemort was up to and > then stole the Horcrux, brought it home and went underground by > feigning death. Then he could have tried to reveal himself by using > this mockery for himself and pretending to be Sirius so that he will > hopefully read this article. Only his brother would recognize it. > > Colebiancardi back again: > > Ok. We know that Regulus is Sirius's younger brother and that he was > in the house of Slytherin, which happens to be Snape's house as > well. Since it has been stressed upon the readers that your house is > like your family, I am going to assume that Snape KNEW Regulus, even > though he may have been a year or two younger than Snape. What else > do we know? Regulus died in 1980 ? the family tree stated in OotP > that Regulus died 15 years earlier, which makes in 1980, if OotP is > in 1995. We also know that Snape in 1980, heard overheard the > prophecy and it was a cold, wet day ? so either late winter, spring > or late fall of 1980. At this time Snape was still working for LV. > Since Regulus died in 1980, he was also in the DE's at that time. We > do know that Snape turned and became a spy for DD sometime AFTER he > heard the prophecy and BEFORE James & Lily died. He did not turn > after their deaths ? so that could not have been the reason why he > turned. He was already working for DD at that time. Snape became > Potions Master in 1981, as in OotP, when questioned by Umbridge, we > discover he has been the Potions Master for 14 years. > > So, what could have turned Snape sometime between 1980 and 1981? My > theory: Regulus Black, if he is RAB, cannot be discounted. How did > Snape become a DE if he is half-blood, as LV seems intent to have a > pure-blood wizarding community? Could it be that not only was LV > impressed by Snape's dark arts mastery, but that Snape had > connections with two of the biggest pure-blood families in town: > Malfoy ? who probably recruited Snape and the Black family. Snape > probably recruited Regulus, as if he needed any encouragement. What > a bonus for Snape, as Sirius is one of the people he HATES the most > and here is Snape, friends with Regulus and also a fellow DE. Did > Snape become a "brother figure" to Regulus? It is quite possible. > And it gives Sirius another reason to hate Snape. > > Regulus was killed, according to Sirius, by Voldemort or more likely > (in Sirius's words), another Death Eater. If RAB is Regulus, and he > was killed by another DE, does that mean that Regulus was dying, due > to the potion? If so, would Regulus go to the man he viewed as > family, Snape, who is also an accomplished potions master? Who could > have prevented his death? Did Regulus tell Snape what Voldemort was > up to, with the horcruxs ? and if Snape knew of the prophecy at this > time, what did Snape think of this? > > 3 possibilities: > 1. Snape gave Regulus a potion to reverse the effects of the poison > and told him to get out of dodge. Voldemort then sent a DE to > dispatch of Regulus. > 2. Snape does not give the cure to Regulus, but lets him die > 3. Repeat Number 1 and instead of an unnamed DE, it is Snape whom > Voldemort sends to kill Regulus. added in new 4th possiblity(if Regulus is still alive) 4. Regulus goes to Snape, dying from the potion he just drank. Snape gives him the antidote. LV tells Snape to kill Regulus. Snape cannot - Regulus is like a brother to him. Instead, Snape takes Regulus to Dumbledore and Dumbledore now hides Regulus. Snape has now become DD's spy the moment he took Regulus to DD. Snape returns to LV and tells LV that he killed Regulus. So, how did DD managed to hide Regulus? Don't know - but when DD is talking to Draco and telling him he(DD) can protect & hide Draco - Draco states that LV will kill him. DD says something very strange at this point...You cannot be killed if you are already dead... > > > Regardless if it Snape or not that killed Regulus, Snape knew > something horrid was coming down. Snape is not a pure-blood and now > Regulus, a pure-blood, has been killed by another DE ? which cannot > be a comforting thought to Snape. Snape understands clearly now what > Voldemort is up too, with the prophecy & now the horcruxes, and > realizes his days are numbered ? hey, I didn't say that Snape still > doesn't look out for his own neck ? he is a Slytherin, after all. > Snape knows the only chance for survival for himself and the world as > he knows it, is to turn to Dumbledore and become a spy. We know he > did this before October 31st, 1981. > > Snape turns his back on Voldemort & the DeathEaters because of what > he sees internally within the DE camp; not any external forces > outside of it. He sees that a pure-blood like Regulus can be killed > and if Snape was the one who had to kill Regulus, that could have > affected him in ways that showed DD that Snape was truly against > Voldemort and Voldemort's plans for the wizard community and > muggles. That is why Roberta's comment of "Incidentally, in GoF, > Dumbledore states that the reason for his trust of Snape is between > him and Snape--i.e. none of Harry's business. This too suggests that > there is more to it than Snape's repentance over betraying Harry's > parents, which *is* Harry's business" is important to note. > > Even if RAB is not Regulus, the fact that he was killed by another DE > is important to note. All of what I have written, with the exception > of Snape knowing the horcruxes, could still play out. > > Now, why was Snape remorseful about James' & Lily's deaths? See > Tonk's comment about Snape's life-debt to James. Why is Snape a > nasty bastard to Harry? Well, DD even stated that - Snape hasn't let > go of the memories of being tormented by James - and as we have found > out - they did GANG up on Snape - 4 to 1. Not a very mature reason > to hate Harry, but Harry looks just like James and I am sure that has > to grate on Snape's nerves everytime he sees him. > > Now my theory may be a leaky as a sieve, but it is no more leaky than > the Snape loves Lily theory ? actually, I think mine is more water- > tight :) And I like mine better, as it shows that Snape left the > DE's, as he began to see them for what they really were ? not just > folks who liked to play with Dark Arts, but evil people who wanted to > wipe out a race of people. > > colebiancardi > > (hoping that she didn't waste her 1st post and is curious if anyone > else is thinking about this theory) From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:56:35 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:56:35 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <198.43952177.30181c89@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > Milz: > >> Never said Hermione lacks intelligence. I've stated that she's not > >> on the same plane of intellect as HBP or Fred and George. > > > Christina: > According to Sirius (GF pg 25), "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year..." > > We know that Snape's maternal side of the family is magical. How did Snape know so many curses? Either somebody tutored him or he read a lot of books as a child. Either way, he had enough time before coming to Hogwarts to explore the magical arts and develop a great deal of base knowledge. Hermione is Muggle-born. She didn't have access to magical books until she got her Hogwarts letter, and there was nobody in her family to tutor her in the magical arts. > Her education began considerably later. Before innovation can take place, it is necessary to have a secure foothold in the basics. Hermione starts out a good few years behind Snape, just by virtue of her birth (we can assume that once she did find out she was a witch, she gobbled up information, seeing as she lists several books she has read before coming to Hogwarts). I would give her a few years to catch up to Snape before declaring that his genius so far > surpasses hers. > > Christina I think that Hermione isn't on the same plane as Snape and Voldy because she just can't think of things as horrible as they can. Like the wandmaker said, he did great things, horrible, but great. A large part of magic is the dark side of it, and a lot of things will come from knowing both the dark and light sides. Hermione hasn't really ever explored the dark side. While she is definitely very bright, we also don't know how much of that is just plain hard work and an A- type personality coming into play vs. real genius. Tamara From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:59:15 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:59:15 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" > You had me rolling around laughing at this comment! I think the > intention behind the original post of flying monkey goes back to > Dumbledore's example. It's about manners, and just because one person > is evil doesn't mean you are ever allowed to stoop to their level. In > words or spells casted (like the unforgivable curses). In either > instance, what makes you of a different breed, then? "S/he started it > first" just doesn't seem to fly (or so I have learned in the several > times I tried it) :). > > > Casmir Will manners come into the story more? Dumbledore is especially into them, or at least vocal about them in the 6th book, so far as the be courteous to the people who will help kill him. If Harry had been kind and courteous to Draco could things be different? Tamara From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:09:16 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:09:16 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: <20050726223631.53830.qmail@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135114 "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > I have read that alot of the people here don't like Ginny. They > either did not like her before or they don't like her now for > telling Hermoione for yelling at Harry. I think that had nothing > to do with the fact that because Ginny can play Quiddithch. I know > some of you thought thought what she said was offensive to women. Alexandre: > I have had a problem with Ginny in HBP, part of them came from her > reaction toward Fleur and her sentence toward Hermione, and part from > her being nearly perfect(I mean great at Hexing great at quidditch, > good look) with few flaws (beyond been full of herself. So I would > like have seen a more human side. But she has next volume to redeem > herself ;-). All I hope is some nice phrase toward Fleur and an > understanding between them, and see a more faillible Ginny. D: > the supposedly 'kind & compassionate' qualities the great and fine > Ginny supposed to have are *told* to us through other characters, hardselling like a radio advertisment, instead of showing. And readers are pound over the head constantly: to admire her as a tough cookie, to look up to as the strongest female role-model who would never cried or let a man to act with that gentlemen crap toward her; to desire her dazzling beauty; to be in awe by her goddess greatness and resemblence to Fred & George + Ron + Molly + Lily (etc.). That just irked me as a reader, because whenever Ginny appears on page what I see is this smug girl who mocked other women behind their back, who tell off a crying nurse in deep grief to *shut the hell up* at funeral, who is catty that no one can dare to admire another woman's beauty in front of her, who went up and arm against all those who dare to tell off their men, yet would never compete with them or jealous of them, despite she's a capable seeker herself, because a perfect girl would never steal nor threaten Harry's spotlight. A perfect girl is always so convenient like that! So ideal! A true 'equal' in a non-threatening, supporting way. Now me: I daresay that anything I post will be viewed with suspicion because I have been a staunch supporter of H/Hr for a long time now, but I think that there is a problem with Ginny's character development that goes far beyond shipping preferences. I think in focusing on keeping Ginny under the radar, the author did her character a big diservice. Ginny's character development in OotP and HBP is, in my humble opinion, disjointed, contradictory and uneven. In her most recent interview, Rowling said that she wanted readers to slowly realise that Ginny was the perfect girl for Harry. She also said that the two characters had evolved together and were `equals' who were perfect for each other. With all due respect to Ms Rowling, but I beg to differ. When have we ever been privy to Ginny's evolution? We have always merely been told that this is so. When have we ever seen Harry and Ginny sharing their feelings on a significant emotional issue or working in partnership with each other? Their mutual connection to Voldemort is prime material for this, and yet it is never actually used by the author. 'Telling' might work in real life, but in literature it smacks of amateur writing. Part of the reason why some fans were invested in Hermione and Harry as romantic partners were exactly these reasons ? their equality in talent (demonstrated time and time again in their adventures together); their understanding of each other (demonstrated repeatedly by the two of them being on the same page, sometimes ahead of even Ron); the ability to work together in desperate situations and come to a compromise (nowhere demonstrated better than in the Sirius argument in OotP). Rowling, seemingly by complete coincidence, had developed their friendship in this manner. It would not have been an impossible task for the author to give us these small hints as to Ginny's evolving connection with Harry instead even if Harry didn't process the information at the time. It would not have been a big stretch to allow Ginny rather than Hermione to be dragged along by her robes at the DoM, thus giving the reader a chance to see Ginny in action (have we ever actually seen her perform that bat-bogey hex? And, for heavens sake Jo, give the girl another spell). It would give us an opportunity to watch their `perfectness' for each other in its early, blossoming stages. Instead, the author just tells us ? this is how it is and we're just meant to suspend disbelief and come along for the ride. (Am I really expected to be more invested in Ginny's bat-bogey hex ? which I've never actually seen - than, say, Hermione's protean charm or Ron's chess skills? And Slughorn's invitation to Ginny to join him in his carriage is the worst possible contrivance). I accept the anvil-like clues for Ron and Hermione's evolving romance, but there was nothing in canon pre-HBP to suggest that I should accept Ginny as Harry's equal. That's why, in my opinion, Rowling was forced to overcompensate by demonstrating how `perfect' Ginny was in HBP (which came across as pretty much a Mary Sue). And this is not something that can be easily explained away by the Harry-lens we are forced to wear as readers. It is simply bad writing. It is the writer telling us how it is rather than showing us. I shouldn't have to rely on interviews with Rowling to understand the hero's relationship with his love interest. I actually didn't mind Ginny's character from Books 1 to 4 and, with very little effort, Rowling could have foreshadowed her perfectness for the hero, while keeping his two best friends on equal but inferior footing. But she did not. (Eg. In HBP, Ginny suddenly understand Harry better than anyone. Where did this come from? Why? How? And why should I buy it as a reader?) Also, as a side note, the constant comparisons between Ginny and Lily became a bit tiring. At the end of the day, both our boys will end up marrying their mothers. Eeek. ;) Sienna *Who thought JKR might have something different to say about the world.* From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:09:36 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:09:36 -0000 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus In-Reply-To: <20050726235427.48858.qmail@web32705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135115 Lynn said: "Well, actually, it could kill his furry rear end. Remember, he's living with the werewolves and, since many are listening to Greyback, they could very easily be turned against him. All it would take is a word from Snape." SNIP Inge: As usual Im not around my books.... but the above made me think - how can Remus live with the werewolves as one of them? Wouldn't they know that he's not on their side? The werewolves are on Voldemort's side - and Voldemort knows that Remus is on the side of the Order (Pettigrew or Kreacher - yes, or even Snape! would have told him) - so how can Remus live among his kind - unharmed and trusted? From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 00:12:11 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:12:11 -0000 Subject: Trevor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nasar" wrote: > > Does anyone have any theories on Trevor the frog? My brother seems > to > > think that he might be an animagus... he vanishes all the time and > JKR > > does seem to put him in the plot a lot... > > > > Shaista > > > Well thats a new one! Good thinking but I don't remember Trevor > featuring in HBP (I just may have forgotten however) so I can't see how > he would fit in the plot as another character's animagus form. I always > thought that Trevor's escapades were just for entertainment factor. > But you've got me thinking now...... > Auria Now me: Trevor appears in HBP on the train. Neville has to dive under the seat to find him just before the invitations from Slughorn arrive. I have always thought that there was more to Trevor than meets the eye. : ) From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:02:43 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:02:43 -0000 Subject: Age, integrity, and the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135117 hekatesheadband said : > I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm a denizen of the geeky > academic world myself, so I just find myself wanting to shout at > Snape: If you care so much about the "noble art and subtle science > of potion-brewing," why don't you act to ennoble it further! How can > someone who claims to care so much about potions make the core of > his curriculum the following of instructions he knows to be > inadequate? Granted, he may have wanted students to experiment for > themselves - but with the way he berates them for failure when they > do deviate from the book's directions, how can he expect that they > would ever dare it? Just wanted to bring up the possibility: before Book 6 we didn't know about Snape and his prodigious potions-innovating skills. But we did note that he always wrote the instructions for potion-brwing on the board. I recall this from past canon where Harry had missed a step, which he saw written on the board. So it is possible that Snape _does_ give his own instructions on the board? I mean, we seem to be assuming that what he writes on the board is what is written _word for word_ in the text. Maybe it's not? Do we have a point of reference for this? Could it be possible that the instructions on the board are his, as he would have writtein in his own textbook? Personally, I could see Neville having problems with _either_ set of instructions, the book's or the HBP's. - Ahson From arolls at igc.org Wed Jul 27 00:19:12 2005 From: arolls at igc.org (algnash) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:19:12 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135118 colebiancardi wrote: > doesn't anyone want to read/remark on my theory? I feel so > unloved.... > colebiancardi (hoping that she didn't waste her 1st post and is > curious if anyone else is thinking about this theory) I, too, am haunted by this idea that Snape and Regulus must have been pals in school, and that somehow Regulus is a key to a lot of stuff that went on between Snape and the Maurauders. (Maybe pretty-boy Reg. tried to steal Lily Evans from Prongs!) I even posted a theory similar to yours, with Snape being ordered by Voldy to kill his Slytherin buddy Regulus, not doing it, and having Dumbledore hide him (in that unimaginable way that he speaks of in HBP). I was kind of shaken by the fact that, apparently, the line "How can they kill you if you're already dead?" didn't appear in the British edition of HBP! And by JKR's statement, some ways back, that "Regulus is dead". Maybe Dumbledore can hide his death even from JKR!!! It also strikes me - though I'll have to double check - that almost all of the references to Regulus's murder are qualified in some way by the speaker. Eg: "As far as I remember" or "from what I can tell..." It's very vague. Not even Sirius is very detailed about it. Doesn't even name the DE that supposedly did him in. Very Strange, I say. Let's embroider this... -allison From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 01:05:20 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:05:20 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: <20050726223631.53830.qmail@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135119 Im sorry, but are we all reading the same books? First of all, some people seem to think the character of Ginny and her relationship with Harry was forced or rushed. That she's portrayed as this flawless, perfect person. Or they think her character is implausible, because all of a sudden she's so this and so that, and it all came out of nowhere. We spent five years not really getting to know Ginny, because it wasn't time for us to. We were supposed to see her as her own person, rather than just Ron's little sister, when Harry did. JKR decided HBP would be the time for Harry to fall in love (take that phrase as literally as you want), and she chose Ginny to be the girl. So I can see why JKR chose to develop Ginny's character the way she did, and have Harry fall for her. Harry's had a very dark life. He needs someone with a sense of humor, most likely similar to his. Who can make him laugh, and is able to cheer him up with only a few words. Who's not always seeing the down side of things. Someone who loves him enough to let him go when the time comes. Even the most original stories have one or two cliches. Did anyone really expect Harry to fall for a weak pushover who blends into the wallpaper? Or for the sole Weasley sister to be anything like that? Because when you grow up with five older brothers (I'm not including Percy) with very distinct outgoing personalities; Brothers who don't mind teasing you or boss you around- you learn how to stand your ground and not let others walk all over you. Their sarcastic sense of humor, and the fact they're total Quidditch nuts rubs off on you. And, who's to say she wasn't admired by her school-mates prior to HBP? The Weasley siblings are pretty well known at Hogwarts. And when you're the only girl and you happen to be good-looking among other things, you get attention. I also don't see why people are saying the acknolodgement of her looks is far-fetched. After all, Bill is more than once described as handsome, and last time I checked more than one child is allowed to be attractive in a single family. With all he has going on, the last thing he needs is a girlfriend who's perception of right and wrong, black and white, is so strong, that she makes it difficult for him to think for himself (Hermione). Or a girl who's passive-agressive, as well as straightfoward personality, doesn't really challenge him and at times makes him uncomfortable (Luna). And Cho's superficiality and need for nothing except to simply have a boyfriend brought absolutely nothing to the relationship, which is why it ended so quickly. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hermione and Luna. I like them both. It's just that I understand why they would not be the perfect mate for Harry in the long wrong. For me, Hermione belongs with Ron. They balance each other out- He can be too lax about things, and she helps him focus. When she's uptight, he relaxes her a bit. But I digress... My point is we should give JKR a little credit. She's come this far, so I'm sure she knows what she's doing. Ginny has been my choice from the beginning. At the same time, that doesn't mean I would go on a rampage if he ended up with someone else. I wouldn't all of a sudden think the series was no longer worth my time. I wouldn't think JKR is screwing things up, just because my fantasies were screwed with. I mean, really... *Rizza* From AllieS426 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 01:05:04 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:05:04 -0000 Subject: Trevor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "witchypooh67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nasar" wrote: > > > Does anyone have any theories on Trevor the frog? My brother > seems > > to > > > think that he might be an animagus... he vanishes all the time > and > > JKR > > > does seem to put him in the plot a lot... > > > > > > Shaista > > Allie: Two characters so far have been described as frog-like that I can remember: Dolores Umbridge and the man in the painting in the muggle Prime Minister's office (who, coincidentally, also clears his throat/coughs a lot). Maybe they are related or maybe one of them is Trevor. Don't really think so, but who knows with her! :) From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:44:56 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:44:56 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135121 D wrote: >whenever Ginny appears on page > what I see is this smug girl who mocked other women behind their > back, who tell off a crying nurse in deep grief to *shut the hell up* > at funeral, who is catty that no one can dare to admire another > woman's beauty in front of her, who went up and arm against all >thosewho dare to tell off their men, yet would never compete with >them or jealous of them, despite she's a capable seeker herself, >because a perfect girl would never steal nor threaten Harry's >spotlight. A perfect girl is always so convenient like that! So >ideal! A true 'equal' in a non-threatening, supporting way. Sienna wrote: > When have we ever been privy to Ginny's evolution? We have always > merely been told that this is so. When have we ever seen Harry and > Ginny sharing their feelings on a significant emotional issue or > working in partnership with each other? ............... > That's why, in my opinion, Rowling was forced to overcompensate by > demonstrating how `perfect' Ginny was in HBP (which came across as > pretty much a Mary Sue). And this is not something that can be easily > explained away by the Harry-lens we are forced to wear as readers. > It is simply bad writing. I have to say, I agree 110% with this analysis. It's the sort of material you read that makes you want to jump up and pump your fist, becuase you agree so whole-heartedy. But the admin. tells us to post something of substance, so I will add my 2 cents. Ginny, other than the victim-role she played in CoS, was never on equal footing in any dimension with the Harry-Ron-Hermione trio. She was not included in their adventures (PoA, and to a lesser degree GoF), she was not asked for feedback in their day-to-day curiosities, and she never seemed, in the first place, to have that nosy, gossiping mentality that we love our trio for possessing in such high volumes. It seems to me that Ginny as a person doesn't have the qualities that make Harry Ron and Hermione so great, chief among them, humilty. Granted, our trio break the rules imposed on them more often than they eat or sleep, but they nonetheless have respect and a sense of equality, especially when it comes to their classmates, their peers. Ginny does not. She doesn't bat an eyebrow at telling off Hermione, hexing guys in the hallways, and even insulting her brother. She seems to have a smug, superior attitude, in that she doesn't have to listen to anybody; she doesn't have to take anything from anyone - sort of like women's rights gone off the deep end. Self-confidence is one thing, and arrogance (instincive and with no provocation) another. I am somewhat surprised at JKR for saying Ginny and Harry are perfect, in either harmony or complementarity. Ginny seems, unlike many other heroes in the HP series, 2-dimensional: she takes great, convenient leaps in character development whenever the time calls for it. Okay, she's good-looking. Okay, she's skilled. But let's see her commit an act of charity, something nice for someone, without any positive consequences for her. Let's see her take the first step towards Fleur. Let's see something of moral fiber. After all, isn't this quality the reason we fell in love with Harry Potter for in the first place? It seems to me that Ginny embodies what Harry does not, and Harry what Ginny does not. This is not a complementarity. It is a polar dichotomy. - AA From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:56:15 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:56:15 -0000 Subject: Trevor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135122 Shaista writes: > Does anyone have any theories on Trevor the frog? My brother seems > to think that he might be an animagus... he vanishes all the time > and JKR does seem to put him in the plot a lot... I think it would be somewhat of a let-down to see Trevor as an animagus. That sort of (that exact) plot device was carried through with Scabbers/Peter Pettigrew, and it would seem a bit lame (and lazy, on JKR's part) to do the exact same thing again. I vote, too, that he's there for entertainment value. It could be possible he'll play a more important role, indirectly (e.g, Neville sees that Trevor is missing, searches for him, and stumbles upon the location of the Ravenclaw horcrux, or something), but I'm 98.352% sure he's not animagus. - AA From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 01:15:36 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:15:36 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135123 Rizza: My point is we should give JKR a little credit. She's come this far, so I'm sure she knows what she's doing. Ginny has been my choice from the beginning. At the same time, that doesn't mean I would go on a rampage if he ended up with someone else. I wouldn't all of a sudden think the series was no longer worth my time. I wouldn't think JKR is screwing things up, just because my fantasies were screwed with. I mean, really... Now me: I can't help but feel that this comment was meant for people like myself who had a different shipping preference from what eventuated. But I think that I've personally done enough to try to present a critic that is fair. It should be clear by now that it's not about `fantasies being screwed with' but I suppose it's an easy enough anvil to throw. I just think HBP lacks the skill I came to expect from her and I personally find Ginny's character development poor. And no, clearly we're not reading the same books. An alternative question to ask might be does a preference for H/G actually blind some people to the flaws in that subplot? Sienna Who's disappointed but not surprised that its once again being labelled `sour grapes' From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 01:23:43 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:23:43 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135124 Deb:(snippped good discussion of general magical education upthread) > If indeed this type of ritual magic {graveyard potion} is > necessary for the creation of a horcrux, then one can not be > created accidentally or even incidentally. To create a horcrux > one would need all of the elements required to complete the spell > to be assembled in one place, one would need the time, the right > circumstances, the right equipment in order to complete the ritual > and create the horcrux-- and the focused intention to not only > create a horcrux but firstly to commit deliberate, premeditated > murder and spill blood in the process. Jen: Voldemort has a thing about blood, doesn't he? After witnessing the forceful use of Harry's blood in GOF, and the blood payment in the cave in HBP, I think it's a fairly good guess the sealing of a Horcrux requires the blood of the victim. Taken after death, no doubt, since the AK wouldn't shed blood. *shivers* Blood--Voldemort believes it weakens people and Dumbledore believes in its strength. DD uses it symbolically to forge Harry's greatest potection. That's the reason for the darn gleam, Dumbledore can see what Voldemort continually overlooks, that blood is valuable. He understands Voldemort can touch Harry because Harry's blood weakened him, not the other way around. Deb: > I think further that LV had created all 6 of his horcruxes before > he went to kill Harry Potter... the bit of the prophecy that he > knew was that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord > approaches, born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the > seventh month dies" .... I think from LV's POV he would see this > as the last obstacle to his immortality .... if this one person is > the only one who has the power to vanquish him, and if LV kills > him and prevents the fulfillment of the prophecy as he understands > it, and his soul is segmented and hidden, then there would be no > way that he could die... again speculating on LV's thought > processes... very scary! Jen: I'm with you here. I don't see how Voldemort could make a Horcrux without first performing the murder and possibly using the blood of the victim to seal the deal. The price for selling part of his soul. And Voldemort must have *desperately* wanted to seal his final Horcrux that night at Godric's Hollow, meaning he did have six going in. It would be a victory for him, to have all seven souls sealed and his enemy vanquished. But the ritual never took place when he was ripped from his body. I'm on the fence about Harry becoming a Horcrux that night. It seems so important to JKR why Harry survived that night: Lily's sacrifice. And then she answered the second half of the mystery in HBP: Why did Voldemort live? JKR definitely likes her characters to live in the gray area, so it's possible she's saying 'look, even with part of Voldemort's soul Harry is still making the right choices'. But it taints things, too. Then it wasn't just Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry, it was also being forcibly sealed as a Horcrux against his will. Magic so dark you can't even read about it at Hogwarts! Dark, very dark. It would make a great ending, how Harry discovers he's a Horcrux and what he does to destroy LV's soul inside without killing himself, but....there would be some flaws to overcome with that plot development. Jen For a good discussion on Dark Magic, read the thread starting here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82138 (References included in this post for earlier discussions as well) From azriona at juno.com Wed Jul 27 01:32:07 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:32:07 -0000 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > Lynn said: > "Well, actually, it could kill his furry rear end. Remember, he's > living with the werewolves and, since many are listening to Greyback, > they could very easily be turned against him. All it would take is a > word from Snape." > SNIP > > Inge: > how can Remus live among his kind - > unharmed and trusted? I don't have my book with me either - can someone look up that scene at Christmas? I vaguely remember Remus saying that he *wasn't* trusted, not entirely, because he'd spent so much time living amongst humans, whereas most of the werewolves lived apart from society. I think this is what made his position difficult and incredibly stressful. (I also think Lupin wasn't entirely himself, seeing as he's trying to deal with Sirius's death and Tonks being in love with him. Perhaps he just doesn't want to offend Harry with his statements, or encourage him toward blindly hating someone further than he already is, and therefore claims to be in the middle so Harry can't use him as an example.) --azriona From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 01:33:03 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:33:03 -0000 Subject: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050726165213.60341.qmail@web32709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135126 > Lynn: > My problem is that Ginny, Hermione and Molly are being disparaged by not just automatically accepting being treated badly and, more importantly, being blamed for what is Fleur's normally bad behavior. I fail to understand why there are people who think it is okay to treat people the way Fleur does and that others should just accept it. Yes, you can put with with some of her behavior even if you don't like it. She's vain and self-centered, so what. That doesn't hurt anyone. When the bahavior is insulting or demeaning, I draw the line at saying people should just put up with it as that is damaging behavior. phoenixgod2000: I think you are making Fleur out to be a much darker and more obnoxious character than she is meant to be. From the moment she burst into Harrys room 'languishing' to speak with him to her whipping her hair in Molly's face by accident the entire Molly/Fleur/Other assorted girls conflict should be seen more like comedic movie than anything else. It'll make great physical comedy in HBP movie. It's comedy in the vein of American Wedding or the Meet the Parents movie. I think you are making far too much of Fleur's supposed rudeness which I think is more about the comedy of it than anything else. Secondly, even if I were to agree that Fleur is as horrid and awful as some list members think, Molly, Hermione, and Ginny are the last people to take the more high ground over it considering that they are much more condesending, insulting, and rude to far more people. Fleur is a vain, but ultimately harmless and goodhearted girl. On the other hand: Molly: Likes to disparrage and control her children (and other children she thinks are hers) ruthlessly. She insults Sirius in his own home in far worse way than Fleur insulting her musical tastes (which apparently other people agree with but are too afraid to do anything about) and she apparently likes to insult and humiliate her husband in public. Pretty rude to anyone not on her good list as well (Hermione during GoF). Pretty much loses her temper at the drop of the hat. Ginny: Likes to crash her broom into the commentater stands whenever she doesn't like the guy. Imagine if Draco had done that to Lee Jordan if you don't think its a big deal. Curses students she finds annoying (so she's a bully). Breaks up with guys over minor issues (Dean). Likes to humilate people in public over minor issues (Ron and Hermione). Also pretty much loses her temper at the drop of a hat. Hermione: More condesending in her casual conversation with Harry and Ron than Fleur could ever hope to be. Obnoxiously self righteous with maddening regularity. Magically attacked Ron when he did something she didn't like (those birds in HBP). Rude to anyone who doesn't hold her exact viewpoint (Luna). Pretty much a shrew to just about everyone at one point or another in HBP. I would take vain, goodhearted Fleur over those three any day of the week and twice on sundays. > Just because other people put up with Fleur doesn't mean they have to or should have to. To expect them to isn't fair to them and it isn't fair to Fleur. Someone said Ginny needed to be taken down a peg or eight and yet I think it's Fleur who needs the wake-up call of how she is perceived by other people. Yeah, that way she wants to include Ginny in her wedding is a pretty low blow. Ginny is absolutely terrible to Fleur and I can't really figure out what the reason could be other than jealousy--whether over her looks or not suddenly being the most important female in her oldest brothers life or some other reason, who knows. The way the book was written I think we were supposed to think that Ginny was funny in her insults but all I could think was that she was being a giant rythms-with-witch. > As I said, I blame Bill for not stepping in. You have clearly never been between your girlfriend and your mother in fight. I have. I'm practically living the Fleur/Molly conflict right now. My girlfriend, despite having a BA in nutrition, makes her living as a dancer in a pretty well known strip club. All my mother sees is the job and the stereotypes that come along with it. Just like Molly is seeing the stereotype of the vain pretty veela and not bothering to see if there was anything beneath it. When you have a deeply judgemental person making judgements about someone you love,it tears you up inside and when you know neither side is going to give in, you just want to throw your hands up and scream. If Bill is anything like me he wants to just stay the hell out of the way because there is no way he can come out the winnner. A lesson I still have the scars from learning. >If she loves him so much, shouldn't she be trying to get along with his family? How do you know she isn't. she tried to help Molly with taking the tray up to Harry. She's including Ginny in the wedding and trying to find a dress that won't screw up her coloring. She is specifically not doing anything to encourage Ron's crush. What else can she do? > As I said in my first post, overall I like Fleur because you can see a depth in her by her love for her sister. I just wish she wouldn't be so toxic with those whom she doesn't have a personal relationship. She's less toxic than Molly, Ginny, and Hermione have been in the past six books. All three have treated many more people much worse than Fleurs relatively harmless excentricties. phoenixgod2000 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 27 01:33:08 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:33:08 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135127 Betsy: > > Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > > confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the > > impression that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. Nora: > Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR > says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. I > suspect that we've been overestimating how much Dumbledore actually > tells Snape, in the sense of planning things out as an explicit > line of attack. It seems much more Dumbledore's style to let Snape > go his own way, and then only step in when necessary. I > really can't see the idea that Dumbledore and Snape set up half the > things we've tended to think they have. SSSusan: I tend to agree with Nora on this. And, keep in mind that, overall, I'm *not* in agreement about who/what Snape is after HBP. ;-) That is, I'm NOT in the ESE!Snape camp whatsoever. However, I think Nora is correct to point out that JKR just took pains to tell us that DD had *no* confidante... ergo, Snape wasn't one. The other bit of evidence I believe we have that Snape wasn't privy to as much as we thought is that we have now been told that ONLY TWO PEOPLE know/knew the full contents of the prophecy: DD & Harry. Months ago, in one of the bazillion Snape threads in which I've participated, I realized that I had been running on the assumption that Snape was fully aware of the prophecy, that he KNEW Harry was Prophecy Boy and thus the WW's ONLY chance of defeating Voldy. This assumption was part of why I was so hard on Snape's teaching methods as they concerned Harry, for instance. Now, however, we've been told outright that NO ONE else knows the full content of the prophecy. This makes me wonder in what way -- if at all! -- DD ever shared with Snape just why Harry is so very important. So, even if Snape has been DD's second, it still doesn't mean that he knew what the hell was going on in DD's mind & plans. Siriusly Snapey Susan, surprising herself and actually posting! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 01:37:55 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:37:55 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135128 Azriona wrote: > > Granted, I'm a big Peter person. I do believe he's going to be > redeemed, and I think this would be an awesome way of doing it. But > I also think that Peter is not aware of the finer points of Snape's > connection to Dumbledore, despite their living together (and we don't know how long that arrangement has been lasting). > > Carol responds: I'm not a Peter person, so forgive me if I have trouble saying anything good about him. He's clearly (as JKR herself says in an interview) a more powerful wizard than his friends have given him credit for (aside from being an animagus, he can cast an effective AK, and concoct a potion capable of restoring Voldy!Thing to his previous form, and he's clever, even ingenious in a sneaky sort of way--able to hide his treachery from his friends, frame Sirius, and persuade Voldemort to take him in as a kind of servant. That being said, let's look at what Snape knows about him, as of GoF. (I'm ignoring Snape's initial intense reluctance to believe Sirius's story in PoA. By the end of GoF, there was no more room for denial.) 1. He knows that Peter was the Secret Keeper who betrayed the Potters. 2. He knows that Peter faked his own death and blew off his own finger, killing twelve Muggles and sending Sirius to Azkaban for twelve years, and hiding for those same twelve years as a rat. 3. He knows that Wormtail found Voldemort and became his servant; kidnapping Bertha Jorkins; and helping in the plot to Imperio Mr. Crouch, kidnap Mad-Eye Moody and supplant him with Mr. Crouch's DE son, Barty Jr. 4. He knows that Wormtail AK'd Cedric Diggory. 5. He knows that Wormtail kidnapped Harry and took his blood, cut off his own hand, and desecrated a grave to create the potion that restored Voldemort to his body (or the semblance of it). 6. He knows that Voldemort rewarded Wormtail with a silver hand. There are probably other things he knows, but I can't think of any more clear-cut examples and these surely suffice to show what kind of man Wormtail is. Possibly he can be credited with a kind of desperate courage in seeking out a master who was at that time possessing small animals or in cutting off his hand, but this is not the kind of courage Snape is likely to admire. He is more cunning than intelligent, making him seem a prime candidate for Slytherin, yet he was placed for unknown reasons in Gryffindor. He is lazy unless forced to work (twelve years as a rat with nothing to do but eat and sleep), and he is a traitor to his friends and to the Order. He is capable of murder without remorse (twelve Muggles and an innocent boy). Snape treats Wormtail with a kind of nonchalant contempt ("He has taken to listening at doors. I don't know what he means by it.") He orders Wormtail to bring drinks for himself and his guests, sends him to his bedroom like a wayward child, and seals the doorway using what I take to be a nonverbal Muffliato spell so that he can't eavesdrop on their conversation. Based on what we know of Peter, he largely deserves this contempt. He brought it on himself through his fear of Voldemort and his desire for the protection of people more powerful than himself. But what does this contempt for Wormtail reveal about Snape (who also, as this scene reveals, dislikes the Crucio-loving Bellatrix)? Can it mean that despite Snape's virulent hatred of James Potter, he holds the betrayer of the Potter family in contempt? Despite having been a spy himself and provided information to Voldemort that led to the events at Godric's Hollow, can it be that he is now loyal to the Order and despises Peter for weakly doing Voldemort's will? And what are the implications of this scene as it relates to Wormtail? He's supposed to be serving Snape, a seeming reward for Voldemort's new favorite, but his habit of listening at doorways (clearly Snape has had other visitors) indicates that he's more of a very inept spy, either by personal inclination or because Voldemort, despite appearances, still does not trust Snape. We know that Peter owes Harry a life debt. We know that Snape is openly treating Wormtail as an unworthy inferior. The obvious expectation is that Wormtail will save Harry by AKing Snape. But JKR keeps pulling the rug out from beneath our expectations. Snape leaves for Hogwarts a few weeks after this scene, and Wormtail has no place to go except return to Voldemort, perhaps having a good look through Snape's books and other property first. I would be very surprised if he doesn't reveal to Voldemort that Bellatrix and Narcissa came to visit Snape and that it was certainly in relation to Draco. I doubt that Snape will lose any credit in Voldemort's eyes--after all, he vowed to carry out Draco's task if Draco could not--but the consequences could be severe for Narcissa, who had been ordered to say nothing of Draco's mission. (The Muffliato spell would have prevented him from learning any details.) I wanted to talk about Snape's lies to Bellatrix in this scene, but that will have to wait for another post. Meanwhile, I'd like to know what anyone else thinks of this scene, Peter defenders included. What does it add to the scene to have him present, and what are the implications of Snape's obvious contempt for this ruin of a man? Carol From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 01:39:57 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:39:57 -0000 Subject: I want opinions on this, please. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135130 I recall Dumbledore telling Harry that he is an old man, a human, and he is allowed to make mistakes. Not with standing, call me na?ve, but I believe Dumbledore was not wrong about Snape, as much as I hate him. Dumbledore?s down fall, however, was Snape?s promise to protect Malfoy, and to complete his task if he was not able to Snape would have died if the task was not completed. Moreover, maybe Snape went through it all, because maybe Dumbledore was already dying, his hand was rotting, and he never told Harry what happened to him. Maybe, just MAYBE, Snape thought he would be more of a help to Harry alive, than Dumbledore. But then again, maybe I am wrong, and Dumbledore made a mistake, either way, I HATE SNAPE! Nevertheless, what do you guys think about this? Dilia From azriona at juno.com Wed Jul 27 01:59:54 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:59:54 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Azriona wrote: > > > > Granted, I'm a big Peter person. I do believe he's going to be > > redeemed, and I think this would be an awesome way of doing it. But > > I also think that Peter is not aware of the finer points of Snape's > > connection to Dumbledore, despite their living together (and we > don't know how long that arrangement has been lasting). > > > > > > Carol said: > I'm not a Peter person, so forgive me if I have trouble saying > anything good about him. Azriona responds: I forgive you. > There are probably other things he knows, but I can't think of any > more clear-cut examples and these surely suffice to show what kind of > man Wormtail is. Actually, I disagree. If you looked at the facts surrounding Tom Riddle or Draco - or even Snape - you'd realize the same thing about them: they did some pretty awful things. However, the difference between their actions and Peter's is that we have motivation for them, the things that caused them to do what they did. We have no such motivation for Peter, and thus I believe that most of the fandom believes that he did these things without any sort of reasoning behind them; in short, because he was just evil and rotten to the core. No one is born evil, not even in JKR's world. They can be predisposed to it (such as Tom Riddle), but they don't pop out of the womb like that. Did Peter do some horrible things? Yes, of course. But so did Dumbledore. So did Sirius. So did Snape, and Draco, and Riddle. I don't believe you can condemn any of them until you know why they did it. Then condemn, or punish, as necessary. But blind punishments or condemnation just because of things you have largely received from hearsay is not just. But I'm not talking about what Snape knows about Peter. I intended this discussion to be about what Peter knows about Snape - which I think is far more applicable to whether or not Peter would actually condemn Snape for turning his back on Dumbledore, and thus bring about his own redemption based upon Snape's downfall. I don't want to argue about whether or not Peter is sympathetic or not - been there, done that, and neither of us are going to change the mind of the other. Peter, truth be told, may in fact know a lot more about Snape than we do, particularly as the two have been living together for an undisclosed amount of time. But what I'm not certain of is whether or not Peter knows Snape's true alliance (not that we know that, either, for that matter). If Peter believes Snape to be loyal to Voldy - why would he condemn him for killing Voldy's enemy? And if Peter believes Snape to be loyal to DD - what would he think of that man's murder? --azriona From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 02:01:59 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:01:59 -0000 Subject: IMO Aberforth has Grimauld locket not Mundungus, anyone agree? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135132 I've seen speculation that Mung and Snape/Draco had the Grimauld Place locket. Imo Aberforth has it. In UK ed ch12 p230 when Harry et al come across Mung outside the Three Broomsticks, it says there were two people,"one was very tall and thin; squinting through his rain-washed glasses Harry recognised the barman who worked in the other Hogsmeade pub, the Hog's Head. As Harry , Ron and Hermione drew closer, the barman drew his cloak more tightly around his neck and walked away, leaving the shorter man to fumble with something in his arms." Although there is no cannon to directly support that Aberforth is the barman at the Hog's Head, there are pointers. DD tells Harry at one point, the famous and perhaps for me one of the funniest lines in the whole series, that Aberforth was caught performing "Innappropriate charms on a goat." In OotP, Harry sees Aberforth in the picture which Mad Eye Moody shows him of the Order. ch9 p158 "That's Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke ..." Later, in OotP, when Harry goes into the Hog's Head for the first time, ch16 p299 "The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy and very dirty room that smelled strongly of something that might have been goats." and on p300, "The barman sidled towards them out of a back room ..... He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry." Somewhere in the back interviews given by JKR after OotP came out, someone asks her whether the barman is Aberforth, and as far as I can remember she admits it is and says she was rather proud of the smelling of goats clue. Sorry, can't remember which interview that was, but it will be on Mugglenet somewhere. I therefore think that Aberforth and the barman at the Hog's Head are one and the same. So what was Mundungus doing with Aberforth outside the Three Broomsticks? A few thousand posts ago in the youthful specualtion immediately after HBP came out, I did post a somewhat outlandish theory that DD and Harry recovered the real Horcrux!Locket from the cave, but Aberforth planted the Fake!Locket beside Dumbledore's body for Harry to find. (I'm rather fond of this theory in a - yes, well Saraquel, you've had your fun, now back to the real world - sort of way.) Because is would mean that the Horcrux!locket is still in Draught-of-living-death-potioned!Dumbledore's pocket inside his tomb. So that even if Harry defeats LV, a little piece of evil still lurks in sleeping-beauty!Dumbledore's pocket and whatever was left of LV would have to come and fight him for it. OK, so now back to the real world. My questions now centre around ESE!Aberforth or ESG!Aberforth, because Harry needs to get the locket. Is Aberforth a spy for Voldemort or is he on the side of the Order? Isn't there another unidentified Voldemort spy suspected by someone in the Order? I can't remember where I've read that, but it is a piece of information lurking in my head. If anyone else can confirm or deny that one in cannon, I'd be grateful. If he is a DE, does he know the significance of the locket, and did he retrieve it on LVs orders? I doubt this as Snape says in HBP Ch2 p35, "I am not the Secret Keeper. I cannot speak the name of the place." So I presume from that, that LV does not know that the HQ of the Order is Regulus Black's home. So, even if LV knows that Regulus (and I do think that RAB probably is Regulus) did steal his Horcrux!Locket, he still doesn't know that it lay in the HQ of the Order and therefore wouldn't know that it could be in the possession of someone in the Order. So he wouldn't be suggesting to spy! Aberforth that he try and find/procure it. Neither do I think Aberforth got the locket on Dumbledore's orders. No clue has been given that DD knew about the locket. It was merely one object in a case which was being decontaminated. So does that leave us with the motive for Aberforth being purely criminal gain of what to him is only a gold locket. Any other suggestions here? Is Aberforth ESE! Or ESG! Opinions anyone? What is he going to do with the locket? Try and open it and get himself splatted in the process? Who might want to buy it off him? Saraquel From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jul 27 02:05:19 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:05:19 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135133 > Nora: > > Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR > > says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. I > > suspect that we've been overestimating how much Dumbledore actually > > tells Snape, in the sense of planning things out as an explicit > > line of attack. It seems much more Dumbledore's style to let Snape > > go his own way, and then only step in when necessary. I > > really can't see the idea that Dumbledore and Snape set up half the > > things we've tended to think they have. > > > SSSusan: > I tend to agree with Nora on this. And, keep in mind that, overall, > I'm *not* in agreement about who/what Snape is after HBP. ;-) That > is, I'm NOT in the ESE!Snape camp whatsoever. However, I think Nora > is correct to point out that JKR just took pains to tell us that DD > had *no* confidante... ergo, Snape wasn't one. > > The other bit of evidence I believe we have that Snape wasn't privy > to as much as we thought is that we have now been told that ONLY TWO > PEOPLE know/knew the full contents of the prophecy: DD & Harry. > I also agree with Nora and Susan. It seems to me that the picture of interaction among the faculty at Hogwarts is gradually becoming clear, like a puzzle as the pieces come together. It is rather different than had been commonly supposed. It appears that Dumbledore was much more secretive with McGonnagall and Snape than many have assumed. It also appears that the relationship between Snape and McGonagall was, contrary to a popular theory, distant and marked by lingering suspicion on McGonagall's part. Given the fact that communication among these "big three" doesn't appear to have been so great, I think the ground was laid for all kinds of mistakes, misunderstandings, and blunders. It is scarcely surprising that Dumbledore underestimated the depth of Snape's feelings, and it is quite plausible that all sorts of things might have been going on in Snape's pointy little head that nobody knew anything about. It seems certain that Dumbledore took a lot of secrets with him. As these secrets are revealed in Book VII, they may reveal Snape as ESE, or they may reveal him as a loyal member of the Order. Or, which I think would be by far the most interesting option and one with the most literary merit, they may reveal him as a checkered character who has done some very good things in the scope of the seven books but who also has committed some very evil acts within that same time frame. We will see. Lupinlore From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 02:10:02 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:10:02 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135134 - > Betsy: > > > Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > > confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the > > impression that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. If > > Snape does turn out to have been Voldemort's man all along, it > > means Dumbledore was *completely* fooled. > Nora: > Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR > says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. Valky: I agree with you Nora that, certainly some at least, of the hypothesising about the brothers in arms relationship between Dumbledore and Snape is dashed now, and should not be deliberated here. OTOH I am in strong agreement with Betsy, in any case I think that Dumbledores trusting of Snape, although it does seem on the surface incredibly reckless, would make him an absoutely fool given the HBP canon if there is nothing more to Snape that can redeem him to some degree. And I am not ready to believe that DD was a complete and total fool about Snape, although it is reckless to trust someone with such a past as dear Sevvie had. Suffice to say that recklessness is not essentially stupidity. Many will beg to differ on that, but I don't mind because, to me, there is a degree of recklessness to all incredible courageousness and to incredible compassion. Because I never had trouble believing that James was *always* courageous and compassionate, I also have very little trouble believing that Dumbledore trusted Snape not foolishly, but bravely and compassionately and it was not necessarily a mistake. > > Betsy: > > > Snape, however, is very much Dumbledore's baby. McGonagall > > suggests that the entire Order thought it strange that he was so > > trusted. > Nora: > I'd say the theme of second-hand trust and its dangers was a huge > one throughout the book--I do a little dance at having called that > one absolutely dead on. :) Valky: I definitely agree with that Nora. I think it's also been highlighted from the start by Harry's determination to make up his on mind. Who can forget in PS/SS Harry saying to Draco {I think I can tell the right sort for myself}. This seems to be very much the groundwork for this theme. Everyone questioned in themselves why Snape was trusted, but many stopped arguing about it after a while and fence sat instead. Its fair to say that Snape really needed to earn the trust of each individual himself, not have Dumbledore assure it for him. But I am not quite sure yet that he isn't actually trying to do that now, at the enormous sacrifice of being alone and in grave danger. It's really difficult to imagine that Dumbledore's death might not be a very important sacrifice, and a final clue to Harry of what's to come. On the surface, and even a little way under, it does seem so much like a murder. But so many little things don't add up to it for me, its a very small stone but it trips me every time. > > Betsy: > > > If Snape really is ESE it means that Dumbledore examined that > > question and came up with the completely wrong answer. It would > > mean, in other words, that Dumbledore is a fool. And it would > > mean, IMO, that any "wisdom" he passed along to Harry would be > > suspect. > > Nora: > This seems to me to be excluding some potential pathos and latitude > here, which is that Dumbledore could have been partly right and > partly wrong in trusting Snape. That is to say, there could have > been reasons good enough for Dumbledore to trust Snape, but given > Dumbledore's canonical personality flaws, he failed to pick up the > lingering resentments and dangers within Snape's personality and > character. Snape could have changed or slid *after* he told > Dumbledore his story, which would make the whole situation Deeply > Tragic. Given the pretty solid confirmation of Rowling as an > essentialist who believes in character, I wouldn't be shocked. [See > the Gaunt family story...] Valky: I'm not ready to believe that its over at essentialism yet. Despite that Jo sometimes seems to come back round to that, the nuances are dropped into the mix to begin with by her hand, and the story has gone beyond a childrens fairytale by wide marks now, so I seriously doubt slices of black and white will be served in the end as might be expected if the story were essentially fairytaleish. Or maybe I just hope for that. No I actually doubt it, I really do, with the development of Sirius almost certainly very near complete and definitely well greyed around the edges in its final stages, I'm thinking that this is a small taste of the depth we should expect. Sirius didn't get much page time, but he got several layers all the same. The Gaunt family were to some degree essential, yes. But they got half a page and Merope developed some small white strokes, I think mostly because her character was the plot focus character so some depth was needed, I certainly didn't take away an all shadows Merope from HBP, she was pitiable and spotted grey for me. > Nora: > I wouldn't be surprised if part of the lesson is indeed that while > Dumbledore is very wise, Harry is going to have to surpass him in > the field of action and not make his same mistakes, not merely be > someone following Dumbledore's lead. Valky: Yes I think he very well already is. Snape does have to earn Harry's trust himself, Harry has made that pointedly clear. In some ways yes, Harry is sure to surpass Dumbledore, as was always expected. But again, I have my doubts that it's going to be that Snape always never (awful grammar! lol but that works for me) deserved Harry's trust. It is admirable of Harry, however, to be sure in himself that the right decision is the one he makes based on truth, and not heresay. > -Nora notes that the essentialism sits uneasily upon her shoulders, > but that it's been there in flaring lights since book 2 at least Valky also uneasy with this thought, but less sure that the final book won't streak unexpected colours all over key characters. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 02:11:06 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:11:06 -0000 Subject: Peril on Privet Drive (Was: DD and Lily's Charm) In-Reply-To: <42E62A79.1040908@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135135 digger wrote: > > Interesting idea. Harry is in need of a new protective charm, because Dumbledore explicitly states that Harry's current protection via Petunia runs out the moment Harry turns 17. > > That means that Harry has at most a couple of weeks of safety with the Dursleys before Voldemort and his Death Eaters can come swarming into 4 Privet Drive and attempt murder. I hope that Harry appreciates this, and makes himself scarce before midnight on 30th July, or we might see scenes of carnage in suburban Surrey, and who knows, even witness an act of magic from a desperate muggle in the process ;-) Carol responds: Possibly I'm making a mistake in responding to this post since I'll only have one left, but I can't let this idea go by. I think you're absolutely right that something terrible will happen on Privet Drive at midnight as July 29 turns into July 30, but IMO it would be in the last degree irresponsible if Harry left three helpless Muggles to face Death Eaters or Dementors alone. Yes, the Dursleys have treated Harry poorly, but neglecting Harry and psychologically abusing him because they're terrified of magic is not sufficiently evil (in my view) to earn them such a horrible fate. And we saw Harry save Dudley in Book 5, doing what was right rather than what was easy (i.e., leaving Dudley to his fate and claiming he couldn't prevent it). He doesn't like Dudley, but he had a responsibility to save him just the same. He has power and an understanding of the WW that the Dursleys can never have. And it's possible that Dudley will belatedly realize this and beg for Harry's help. It would be wrong--indeed, it would be murder--to ignore his pleas and save his own skin. Muggles can't perform magic, and Petunia is a Muggle, as we have repeatedly been told. I think we're going to witness magic late in life from Harry's Squib neighbor, whose courage and devotion to Harry we have already witnessed. The circumstances in Book 7 will be more desperate, and Mrs. Figg will be a hero. Or so I expect and hope. One last point--IMO it's too late for protective charms. Seventeen is the age of majority in the WW. Harry, boy though he will still seem to many of us, will be a man in his own eyes and in the eyes of the WW. No hiding now; no protection. He must fight his own battles, with the help of his friends while he has them, and maybe the help of an enemy as well. But the time for protective charms has ended. Carol P.S. We will apparently hear more from Petunia regarding her knowledge of the WW, but she wouldn't know a spell from a rock lyric even if a wand was any more to her than a stick to poke in someone's eye From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 02:14:00 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:14:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135136 > Now me: > I daresay that anything I post will be viewed with suspicion because > I have been a staunch supporter of H/Hr for a long time now, but I > think that there is a problem with Ginny's character development that > goes far beyond shipping preferences. I totally agree with you about everything in this post but the H/Hr part. I hate her so much now that I've become a D/H shipper. Those two deserve each other as far as I am concerned. > I think in focusing on keeping Ginny under the radar, the author did > her character a big diservice. Ginny's character development in OotP > and HBP is, in my humble opinion, disjointed, contradictory and > uneven. In her most recent interview, Rowling said that she wanted > readers to slowly realise that Ginny was the perfect girl for Harry. > She also said that the two characters had evolved together and > were `equals' who were perfect for each other. With all due respect > to Ms Rowling, but I beg to differ. This really upset me too. I cannot see how, in any world, Ginny can be seen as Harry's equal. What has she done that puts her on the same plane as him? We hear that she is a great and powerful witch, but we've never even seen the one spell she is very good at which, wait for it, makes boogers fly out peoples noses and attack them. Oh, yeah, thats just like surviving a battle of willpower against Voldemort or using a patronus against a hundred dementors. I don't understand how we are suppose to believe that they are perfect for each other when Harry spends more time alone comforting Hermione over Ron and has better chemistry with Luna during their only meaningful scene together (Harry laughing at Luna's actions in the party was a gem of a moment with more warmth and humor than a thousand forced beastial moments of jealousy over Dean/Ginny). > When have we ever been privy to Ginny's evolution? We have always > merely been told that this is so. When have we ever seen Harry and > Ginny sharing their feelings on a significant emotional issue or > working in partnership with each other? Their mutual connection to > Voldemort is prime material for this, and yet it is never actually > used by the author. 'Telling' might work in real life, but in > literature it smacks of amateur writing. I agree. there is a lot of build up to Ginny/Harry and then when we get it and they kiss, we fast forward to weeks later. We miss their talk, the confrontation of their feelings, and just about anything that sells me on this couple. Why does Harry like her? What do they talk about? What was the trigger moment that altered Harry's perceptions of Ginny? We just don't know anything about them. I don't like H/G but I could have been sold on it. I've been sold on Bill/Fleur and I hated the idea of them together (I liked H/F in GoF). But not only did I get a ship I hate, I got it in about the most unsatisfactory way it could possibly have been delivered. Not to mention theirs is the most chemistryless ship in the books. Is hooking Harry up to Ginny so important to the plot that it can't be switched over to a character that would mesh better with him? At this point I don't care who. I'd live with the giant squid making gooey eyes at Harry if it'll get Ginny away from him. > Part of the reason why some fans were invested in Hermione and Harry > as romantic partners were exactly these reasons ? their equality in > talent (demonstrated time and time again in their adventures > together); their understanding of each other (demonstrated repeatedly > by the two of them being on the same page, sometimes ahead of even > Ron); the ability to work together in desperate situations and come > to a compromise (nowhere demonstrated better than in the Sirius > argument in OotP). Rowling, seemingly by complete coincidence, had > developed their friendship in this manner. I have to disagree with you here. I don't think H/Hr ever had any real chemistry together other than as friends. Hermione strikes me as too momish when it comes to Harry. I keep expecting her to pull out a thermomater and check his temperature like a mom with a sick kid. Of course, to be fair, I can't figure out why Ron likes her either. Hermione is pretty unlikeable. It would give us an opportunity to watch their `perfectness' > for each other in its early, blossoming stages. Instead, the author > just tells us ? this is how it is and we're just meant to suspend > disbelief and come along for the ride. (Am I really expected to be > more invested in Ginny's bat-bogey hex ? which I've never actually > seen - than, say, Hermione's protean charm or Ron's chess skills? And > Slughorn's invitation to Ginny to join him in his carriage is the > worst possible contrivance). Amen. > I accept the anvil-like clues for Ron and Hermione's evolving > romance, but there was nothing in canon pre-HBP to suggest that I > should accept Ginny as Harry's equal. H/L wouldn't be so popular if H/G was a obvious as JKR seems to think it was. R/Hr was played much more obviously because it was textual. We know why Ron was jealous of Krum. We know why Hermione was irritated with Lavender. We know why Ron gave Hermione perfume during OOTP. Thats all in the text. We can see it coming. H/G is only an inevitability if you've read too many cliched fairy tales. Its something you have to look for as a reader and not something that can been seen within the text by a character. From within the story it would be the easist of things to hook Harry up with just about any girl at the school because Ginny was never really in the picture. > That's why, in my opinion, Rowling was forced to overcompensate by > demonstrating how `perfect' Ginny was in HBP (which came across as > pretty much a Mary Sue). And this is not something that can be easily > explained away by the Harry-lens we are forced to wear as readers. For gods sake we get death eaters talking about how pretty she is. That's just stupid. It > is simply bad writing. It is the writer telling us how it is rather > than showing us. I shouldn't have to rely on interviews with Rowling > to understand the hero's relationship with his love interest. Also Amen. We are told so many things about Ginny that just don't bare out in the text. she is the 'heart and soul of the quddich team' not you know, the really famous exceptionally charismatic Harry Potter, star seeker and team captain. She is supposed to be really nice, but half the time she's doing anything she's being as asshat about it. She's really powerful magically but we almost never see her cast a spell. > > Also, as a side note, the constant comparisons between Ginny and Lily > became a bit tiring. At the end of the day, both our boys will end up > marrying their mothers. Eeek. ;) It is squicky isn't it. > Sienna Sienna, you have said everything in this post that I have been complaining about for ages and you did it better than me. I tip my hat off to you. phoenixgod2000 From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 02:09:20 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:09:20 -0000 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135137 Remus *is* weak to a certain degree--JRK admits this in a 2003 interview. "...he's someone that also has a failing, because although he is a wonderful teacher (one I myself would have like to have had as a teacher) and a wonderful man, he does like to be liked and that's where he slips up. he's been disliked so often that he's always so pleased to have friends, so he cuts them an awful lot of slack." Snape may not exactly be a "friend," but Lupin is loathe to take a stand against anyone. He knows what it's like to be hated blindly. Unlike Sirius, he always calls Snape "Severus," and is friendly to him. Lupin also feels some guilt. He did not stand up against his friends, as Lily did, when they tormented Snape, though it's obvious he didn't like the fact that they were doing it. And he did nearly kill Snape, albeit not by his own design and when he was a werewolf. Remus' "weakness" is that he unfailinging cuts everyone slack...except himself. Leslie41. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 02:23:08 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:23:08 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" wrote: > Now me: > I can't help but feel that this comment was meant for people like > myself who had a different shipping preference from what eventuated. > But I think that I've personally done enough to try to present a > critic that is fair. It should be clear by now that it's not > about `fantasies being screwed with' but I suppose it's an easy > enough anvil to throw. > > I just think HBP lacks the skill I came to expect from her and I > personally find Ginny's character development poor. And no, clearly > we're not reading the same books. An alternative question to ask > might be does a preference for H/G actually blind some people to the > flaws in that subplot? > > Sienna > Who's disappointed but not surprised that its once again being > labelled `sour grapes' This comment was meant for people who in my oppinion refuse to look at the situation with an open mind, and over react in unnecessary ways. In the past week I've read several posts which were far from being fair- either to Ginny or JKR's writing abilities. I can't remember reading anything of yours, so if you say you've been fair, I'll have to take your word for it. We'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't find Ginny's character development poor, nor do I find the relationship flawed. *Rizza* From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 02:29:34 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:29:34 -0000 Subject: Peril on Privet Drive (Was: DD and Lily's Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135139 > Carol responds: > Possibly I'm making a mistake in responding to this post since I'll > only have one left, but I can't let this idea go by. I think you're > absolutely right that something terrible will happen on Privet Drive > at midnight as July 29 turns into July 30, but IMO it would be in the > last degree irresponsible if Harry left three helpless Muggles to face > Death Eaters or Dementors alone. Valky: I love this Carol. I am running out of posts too, but I can't let this go by without toying with the idea myself. Here's a scenario thats fun to imagine: Sometime during the first few weeks of the summer Harry comes to the realisation that his awful relatives are in mortal danger (perhaps while looking at and contemplating the weasley clock at the Burrow). As much as the thought of them being scared sensless by menacing death eaters is delicious he can't bear the thought that they'd be murdered in cold blood by Voldemort because they were left defenseless. He decides to get them to go into hiding. By hook or by crook he'll get the silly Dursleys into a safe place to protect them. But the only place he owns and can use is .. Grimmauld Place.. So he secret keeps for the Dursleys and moves them unceremoniously into his Godfather's old very very magical home, with Mrs Blacks freaky old portrait, boggarts in the cupboards, doxys and other such things that their nightmares are made of. How touching it would be for Harry to give his only possession to the awful Dursleys and secret keep for them to protect their lives. And how fitting and apt for them to have no choice but to live in the Magical Grim Old Place.. Valky From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 02:23:25 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:23:25 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135140 ahsonazmat: I am somewhat surprised at JKR for saying Ginny and Harry are perfect, in either harmony or complementarity. Ginny seems, unlike many other heroes in the HP series, 2-dimensional: she takes great, convenient leaps in character development whenever the time calls for it. Okay, she's good-looking. Okay, she's skilled. But let's see her commit an act of charity, something nice for someone, without any positive consequences for her. Let's see her take the first step towards Fleur. Let's see something of moral fiber. After all, isn't this quality the reason we fell in love with Harry Potter for in the first place? It seems to me that Ginny embodies what Harry does not, and Harry what Ginny does not. This is not a complementarity. It is a polar dichotomy. Now Schumar: I happen to believe that Ginny is what is right for Harry. I think she has shown moral fiber and doing nice things for someone in the way she evidently treats Luna. Since this is Harry's story, we are not privy to the actual scenes in Ginny's classes or around the students in her year to see exactly what she does... but it is said more than once that Luna speaks in (sometimes uncomfortable) truths, and Luna says Ginny is kind. Now what would the consequences for herself be from That? Maybe I'm a sentimental fool... but I think the development of her character in the background has set this up perfectly. Harry doesn't fall for her for any one reason, so it's not just because Ginny stands up to and for people or because she's talented with hexes or because she's attractive or because she's good at quidditch... it's something beneath the surface which, frankly, happens in a lot of good love stories. As we learn more about Ginny's independence -- the way she stands up to her brothers and doesn't go along quietly with the way her mother attempts to shelter her (in OotP), we also see her be there for Harry in a way that no one else could. Wasn't Ginny the one who got Harry out of his funk at Grimmauld Place? Wasn't it Ginny who was able to share with Harry something from the part of her life that I'm sure she'd most like to forget completely when she realized that he needed her whether he realized it or not? I admit, I never really thought about Harry/Ginny until I read OotP, and I now I think that Ginny has grown more than any of the other "background" characters, except maybe Neville (about whom I would have liked have seen more written in HBP). I have said it before, perhaps, but I loved watching Harry's affection for her grow from being subconscious to something he wanted to vanquish to something he was glad Ron didn't know about. The way Ginny reacted to Harry's breaking things off just proved to me that she was the right girl for him, because she knew she had to let him go do what he needed to do. Being Harry's equal in love takes a whole different kind of strength than being his equals in friendship does. To me, It is also a clear sign of Ginny's being right for Harry that she never questions his time away from her, nor do I think she'll give up on him now they've discovered mutual requited love. I, for one, hope they can get some comfort from each other at the beginning, and end, of book 7. Ron and Hermione, I suppose, are not people that Harry feels responsible for in the way you do for someone you have romantic feelings for, and it seems natural to me that the Trio... the group that has always achieved their greatest successes united together, are going to go together on the journey to Voldemort. That all being said, I don't see Ginny as a complement to Harry, but a complement to what Harry gets from Ron and Hermione. Speaking of Hermione, seems that she's always known that Ginny and Harry belong together, too. She is also a complementary character because she was clearly doted on and protected by her large family, so had to learn on her own how to stand up for herself whilst Harry had to learn to stand up for himself because of the lack of care he received. So, like I said, maybe I'm sentimental... or maybe I secretly wish that things would have worked out with one of my past crushes, or maybe I just trust JKR and her reasons for making Ginny the "greatest source of comfort" for hers and our hero, Harry. I know a lot of people don't like Ginny's reaction toward Fleur. I still propose that there might be SOMETHING about Veelas that cause women to react with them in an equally strong yet opposite way... where men find themselves fawning over them and declaring love for no real reason, and women find themselves abhorring the beauties for no tangible reason. That aside, it does appear that Fleur acts like a bit of a brat toward Ginny. Ginny knows it's better to vent her feelings behind Fleur's back than to, say, bat-bogey hex her. Plus... Bill is (if I'm not mistaken) Ginny's oldest brother. Never underestimate the feelings of a younger sister toward the relationship that will take your oldest (and to you) god-like brother away from the family. I was actually pleased to see Molly and Ginny and Fleur all behave so, well, Normally... as someone fighting to have a place (Fleur) and others frightened of the change (Ginny and Molly) would. It is Hermione's reaction to Fleur that, again, make me wonder if either Fleur really is that awful, or if it's the effect any part Veela would have on a wholly human woman. Marianne S. From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 02:49:22 2005 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:49:22 -0000 Subject: IMO Aberforth has Grimauld locket not Mundungus, anyone agree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135141 I would have to say that the locket being in Aberforth's possession is highly plausible, but my two knuts are thrown in the ESN!Aberforth pot. ESN(EverSoNeutral). psychobirdgirl From abigail1848 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 02:45:40 2005 From: abigail1848 at hotmail.com (abigaileire) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:45:40 -0000 Subject: A contradiction to consider Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135142 I am new to the group, so please forgive any faux pas I might make. I have read the posts up until a week ago, still trying to catch up, and I haven't seen this mentioned: Harry makes the observation that Dumbledore must be dead since he was freed from the immobulus curse at the time of the AK curse. It is explained that a witch or wizard's spells are broken upon death. OK So, how come Draco, and more importantly Snape, fled off-grounds to apparate away from the school? Wasn't it Dumbledore's spells which protected the school from apparations and disapparations? We know Dumbledore had the power to at least change them temporarily, because we saw this twice in the chapters before the showdown (apparations class, and the broom flight of Harry and Dumbledore into the school just before the attack). So, my logic tells me that one of three things have to be true: -Snape forgot about spells breaking when a wizard dies (is this even likely?) -JKR was forgetful about what she had previously told us was true (is this even possible?) -Snape knew the spells were broken but chose to flee for other reasons -the spells are still there in working order. The last one seems to point to me that Dumbledore isn't dead. But then, why is his portrait in the HM office? Did Snape flee the grounds because he knew he wouldn't be able to disapparate? Or did he leave the grounds first to save time (sarcasm intended)? Or did he leave *even though he could have disapparated* for a more dramatic effect or the like? Or, maybe Harry was freed from the immobulus curse non-verbally by a living Dumbledore. I can't decide which I believe! Abigailere. From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 02:51:11 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:51:11 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135143 AA: > I am somewhat surprised at JKR for saying Ginny and Harry are > perfect, in either harmony or complementarity. Ginny seems, unlike > many other heroes in the HP series, 2-dimensional: she takes great, > convenient leaps in character development whenever the time calls > for it. Okay, she's good-looking. Okay, she's skilled. But let's see > her commit an act of charity, something nice for someone, without > any positive consequences for her. Let's see her take the first step > towards Fleur. Let's see something of moral fiber. After all, isn't > this quality the reason we fell in love with Harry Potter for in the > first place? It seems to me that Ginny embodies what Harry does not, > and Harry what Ginny does not. This is not a complementarity. It is > a polar dichotomy. Me: I agree AA (surprise surprise). In fact, one of my favourite moments in the book was the last scene between Harry, Ron and Hermione. Only once we saw the trio back to normal, being the trio in their full glory, did I realise how much I'd missed them in HBP. Unfortunately Ginny, for me, will never be on an equal playing field with them and I had wanted more for Harry's LI (even Luna would have been better I think). I loved the part where Ron told Harry they were coming with him and when Hermione told him that the decision had essentially been made a long time ago. The best writing of the whole book. Phoenixgod200: > I totally agree with you about everything in this post but the H/Hr > part. I hate her so much now that I've become a D/H shipper. Those > two deserve each other as far as I am concerned. You know what this makes me *very* happy (and I love Hermione, so that's saying something). It demonstrates that it is not just us old H/Hr shippers reacting emotionally to our ship being sunk and validates to some extent the fact that there is a problem with the development of the subplot, that perhaps people who have no vested interest in H/G are also able to pick up. I have to say though that HBP!Hermione even got on *my* nerves. phoenixgod2000: > We hear that she is a great and powerful witch, > but we've never even seen the one spell she is very good at which, > wait for it, makes boogers fly out peoples noses and attack them. > Oh, yeah, thats just like surviving a battle of willpower against > Voldemort or using a patronus against a hundred dementors. Agreed. I really really just wish there was more substance. I ultimately really enjoyed the moments between Ron and Hermione because the build up *was* there and I love both these characters enough to want to see them happy. But bat-bogey hex? Sorry. I don't buy it. I wonder if Jo has become so used to the dialogue between herself and her fans (outside the book) that she has taken it for granted that she can fill in any holes outside of canon. Phoenixgod2000: > I don't like H/G but I could have been sold on it. Ditto. Phoenixgod2000: > At this point I don't care who. I'd live with the giant squid making > gooey eyes at Harry if it'll get Ginny away from him. Also ditto. Lol. phoenixgod200: > H/L wouldn't be so popular if H/G was a obvious as JKR seems to > think it was. And the interesting thing is, that H/L became popular after just one book. In fact, as of the end of OotP, H/G and H/L had an equal chance of happening (if you go by canon and ignore extra-canon quotes). Phoenixgod2000: > It is squicky isn't it. Yes. Yes it is. ;) Sienna From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 02:58:53 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:58:53 -0000 Subject: The textbook and the diary (Re: Am I the only one... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135144 Iris: > It's only my opinion, but I think that, through Hermione's negative > reaction, JK Rowling is warning the readers; she wants them to > understand there's something strange concerning that textbook. > Obviously, we can draw a parallel between the Prince's book and > Riddle's diary. > Let's see: > ? Both books come from the past and belong to someone who was > a Hogwarts student before Harry. > ? Both times Harry gets them unwillingly. > ? Both book's owner seem "friendly" at first sight (Tom, > because he made Harry believe he was there to help him, and the > Prince, because his corrections did "help" Harry in a difficult > subject). > ? Both books turn out to be dangerous (the diary contains a > part of Voldemort's soul, and the textbook contains the > Sectumsempra hex). Jen: Not to mention Ginny's outrage to find out Harry is 'listening' to an unknown source after her own dreadful experience with a cursed book. There are differences between the two books, though. Mainly, the HBP did not intend that book to be seen by anyone else. He may have shared some of his hexes with companions, and they passed them on throughout Hogwarts as Lupin suggested, but the rest was Snape's private property. We see this most clearly at the end, when Snape rounds on Harry and rages at him for 'using his own curses against him'. We know this wasn't the first time it happened, either. Unlike LV, Snape doesn't want his personal property in anyone else's possession. Thus hiding it in his dungeon, where it appears only when someone else is teaching Potions. Snape would not have made the mistake of handing his own book over to Harry (of all people). This is evidence for me that the book was not cursed or would bring bad luck to the user or anything like that. Even the dark nature of some of the spells can be seen as a glimpse of Snape's power as a wizard and the direction he's headed, rather than an attempt to lure others. Iris: > So, I don't call Hermione's rejection of the Prince's helpful > corrections "depending on books" or lack of intelligence or of > intellectual curiosity. She loves books, she uses them, but she's > also able to question them and she doesn't trust them necessarily, > precisely because she's intelligent and wise. > It takes intelligence to think out of the box. But sometimes, it > takes wisdom to resist the temptation of thinking out of the same > box. Jen: Hermione is also struggling with the green-eyed monster in HBP, practically everywhere she turns. A bit of her concern is pure jealousy. And a desire to be right as well. She researches the HBP a little too thoroughly for my taste ;), while at the same time rejecting Harry's very real concern about Malfoy. Hermione wasn't up to her usual standards this time around and I think most of it had to do emotional development & good ol' hormones. Besides the fact, Harry came to his own understanding about the book. He realized when he hurt Malfoy that the book wasn't always helpful. And he needs this discernment for the journey ahead, to choose who and what he listens to *very carefully*. Learning that wisdom for himself will go much farther than merely listening to another important Hermione admonition. Jen From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:07:12 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A contradiction to consider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727030713.93765.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135145 --- abigaileire wrote: ...edited... > > So, how come Draco, and more importantly Snape, fled > off-grounds to > apparate away from the school? Wasn't it > Dumbledore's spells which > protected the school from apparations and > disapparations? Juli: Probably the anti-apparition spells were cast LONG before Dumbledore became headmaster, remember Hermione reads about it in Hogwarts, A History ? Besides, I don't think that spells stop working when the caster dies, it'd mean that if Voldemort dies, Lily, James, Cedric... would return to life? Nope, not gonna happen. > > Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 03:03:05 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:03:05 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135146 Schumar: > maybe I just > trust JKR and her reasons for making Ginny the "greatest source of comfort" > for hers and our hero, Harry. I don't have a problem with Ginny, as such. I just think the whole development of Ginny as Harry's "greatest source of comfort" could have been better shown. Sure, I'm aware that "love works in mysterious ways" et all, but Harry's feelings seem to come right out the blue. One minute Harry is saving her life, protecting her as he would his own sister (indeed, I would think it more sensible that Harry - and us as readers - thought of Ginny as a little sister), fast- forward four years, and without any sort of build up, bam! he smells her scent when he's near the love potion. There must be a reason why Ginny is special in a way no one else is, and the normal basis for the cultivation of this special feeling one feels around another is experience. But we never see or hear any of this. It seems as though the trio hang around 24/7, and once in a while Ginny joins in, when she's not too busy hexing boys in the hallway. Harry's sudden infatuation seems too much (to the reader disregarding JKR's "I'm telling you this, so accept it") akin to when Ron realized finally that Hermione was a girl and asked her to the Ball with him in 4th year. The fact that Harry's feelings (dare I call it "love"?) for Ginny are actually real and deep worsens the blow, and we feel as though we've been left out. Schumar: > I know a lot of people don't like Ginny's reaction toward Fleur. I still propose > that there might be SOMETHING about Veelas that cause women to react > with them in an equally strong yet opposite way... where men find themselves > fawning over them and declaring love for no real reason, and women find > themselves abhorring the beauties for no tangible reason. This, I concede, seems a reasonable deduction. But I don't think this is it, because it automatically excuses Ginny and Hermione, while leaving Fleur for the vultures. I think JKR wanted it more in the grey area than that. - AA From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Jul 27 03:12:58 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:12:58 -0700 Subject: OotP: That Hazing Scene Message-ID: <005d01c59259$2108d9e0$482fdcd1@katmac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135147 Ruminations of a nitpicker: With regard to the scene in the Pensieve in which James Potter humiliates Snape: 1. How come Snape is running around in nothing but his underwear under his robes? O.K., O.K., it's end of spring term, the weather is warmish, I've been to a fair number of graduations where..., etc., etc., but it does seem as if the Hogwarts students usually wear normal kid clothes under their school robes (see, e.g., PS/SS, p. 110, hb U.S. edition), especially since the robes, as depicted in the illustrations, are rather casually worn and apparently sans zippers. (One wonders whether Hogwarts has any sort of dress code in effect.) 2. Why does Lily tell Snape to wash his pants (apart, of course, from the fact that they needed it)? Wouldn't laundry arrangements at Hogwarts be a trifle more...magical? 3. I wonder whether Snape lashes out so viciously at Lily because he has just been rescued by a girl (and a mudblood at that) from his two most hated enemies. 4. Finally, if Snape is such a hotshot at magic and runs with a tough Slitherin gang (GoF, p. 531, hb U.S. edition), how did he get into such a relationship with the Marauders in the first place? One can easily imagine him being unpopular, even antisocial, but the class victim??? I'd expect any confrontation with James and Co. to be more on the order of jock-versus-greaser battles that made life in my junior high school so interesting. --Gatta (new to the list, but I did read the HBF, honest) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie1 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 03:10:40 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:10:40 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135148 I don't find Ginny's > character development poor, nor do I find the relationship flawed. > > *Rizza* I have to completely agree with you. I think that Ginny is perfect for Harry. He needs someone who has a bit of an attitude to compete with his bit of an attitude. I don't really see him going for someone like Cho for example (for the long haul). Ginny is just what the doctor ordered in my opinion. She can handle Harry; she's always loved Harry; Harry is just now realizing (due to the fact that he's growing up) that Ginny really is a match for him. I believe that H/G has always been in the cards - even Trelawney might have seen this one coming IMO! Also, I see the correlation between Harry looking like James and Ginny resembling Lily. I absolutely LOVE the way their relationship was presented in HBP. It make me smile, and most importantly, it made my hero Harry happy as well. grindieloe (Harry & Ginny Rule!) From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:20:04 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:20:04 -0000 Subject: IMO Aberforth has Grimauld locket not Mundungus, anyone agree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychobirdgirl" wrote: > I would have to say that the locket being in Aberforth's possession is > highly plausible, but my two knuts are thrown in the ESN!Aberforth pot. > ESN(EverSoNeutral). > > psychobirdgirl The problem I see with a neutral Aberforth is that JKR would have no reason to get the Grimauld place locket to him if he is just going to sit on it. As Harry will presumably at some point (after he realises the Regulus/locket-in-cabinet connection) corner Mung and ask him whether he stole the locket, and demand it back. Mung would then simply point to Aberforth. So if Aberforth is ESN and still has it, what was the point of that. The locket could just as easily have stayed with Mung. If Mung was trying to fence the goods in Hogsmeade, and JKR needed to show him doing it so that Harry could make the plot connections, why introduce Aberforth at all, wouldn't any old dubious looking witch/wizard do? If indeed Aberforth has the locket, then I think that he has it for a reason, and an evil reason seems to make more sense to me at this point than a good one. Because it seems to me, that if it is a good reason, it would not matter if Mung still had possession of it. The only good!reasonplot that I can think of would be that DD requested Mung to find the locket and give it to Aberforth. But the plot implicatons for this are so far reaching that I doubt it can be true. Do I have to explore them - no, I'm not going to, but they involve DD lying to Harry about the whereabouts of Horcruxes. So I think I'm coming down on the side of ESE!Aberforth or even Spy! Aberforth. Scary... Saraquel From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 03:20:57 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:20:57 -0000 Subject: Peril on Privet Drive (Was: DD and Lily's Charm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135150 > Carol responds: > Possibly I'm making a mistake in responding to this post since I'll > only have one left, but I can't let this idea go by. I think you're > absolutely right that something terrible will happen on Privet > Drive at midnight as July 29 turns into July 30, but IMO it would > be in the last degree irresponsible if Harry left three helpless > Muggles to face Death Eaters or Dementors alone. Yes, the Dursleys > have treated Harry poorly, but neglecting Harry and > psychologically abusing him because they're terrified of magic is > not sufficiently evil (in my view) to earn them such a horrible > fate. Jen: I'll use up my last post on this one! (Waves to Carol). Basically we know Harry *won't* leave them high and dry. I feel almost 100% sure of that. It's in his genes or something, that 'saving people thing'. In the moment, he won't for think for a minute about all the wrongs done to him or anything so mundane. He'll whip his wand out like he did with the Dementors in the alley and do everything he can. *Jen smiles here, thinking of Harry saving Vernon's life and wondering if a life debt might be in order? Hehehe.* Another possibility: Harry leaves Privet Dr. before his birthday with time to spare. He'll realize the danger to the Dursleys even if they don't totally get it. And Dumbledore made it sound like Harry just needs to stay at the Dursleys one last time, for how long we don't know--a day, a week? But long enough to invoke the protection to last until age 17. Maybe we won't even see a battle at Privet Dr. Carol: > One last point--IMO it's too late for protective charms. Seventeen > isthe age of majority in the WW. Harry, boy though he will still > seem to many of us, will be a man in his own eyes and in the eyes > of the WW. No hiding now; no protection. He must fight his own > battles, with the help of his friends while he has them, and maybe > the help of an enemy as well. But the time for protective charms > has ended. Jen: This is another reason why he'll probably leave early. there's nothing for him at the Dursleys anymore, just an opportunity to update his protection for a month or so. He'll want to be on his way as quickly as possible, get on with the Horcruxes. Valky: > He decides to get them to go into hiding. By hook or by crook he'll > get the silly Dursleys into a safe place to protect them. But the > only place he owns and can use is .. Grimmauld Place.. > > So he secret keeps for the Dursleys and moves them unceremoniously > into his Godfather's old very very magical home, with Mrs Blacks > freaky old portrait, boggarts in the cupboards, doxys and other > such things that their nightmares are made of. How touching it > would be for Harry to give his only possession to the awful > Dursleys and secretkeep for them to protect their lives. And how > fitting and apt for them to have no choice but to live in the > Magical Grim Old Place.. Jen: How deliciously fiendish of you, Valky! Petunia cleaning house while Kreacher follows her around muttering; Vernon taking a peek at the "Toujours Pur" tapestry and huffing about the dubious lineage; Dudley having a run-in with a maniacal pair of tweezers....plot possibilities are endless here. ;) Jen, still giggling at the image of Petunia's first glimpse of the House Elf Wall of Fame. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 03:20:49 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:20:49 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135151 > Jen: > JKR definitely likes her characters to live in the gray area, so > it's possible she's saying 'look, even with part of Voldemort's soul > Harry is still making the right choices'. But it taints things, too. > Then it wasn't just Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry, it was also > being forcibly sealed as a Horcrux against his will. Magic so dark > you can't even read about it at Hogwarts! Dark, very dark. It would > make a great ending, how Harry discovers he's a Horcrux and what he > does to destroy LV's soul inside without killing himself, > but....there would be some flaws to overcome with that plot > development. > Valky: I am slightly fencesitting on this one myself. I believe it's possible that Harry was made accidentally into a Horcrux in GH, but I believe that if he was, he's an extremely exceptional case and possibly even a unwanted extra Horcrux to boot. The thing I wanted to note specifically about what Jen said here was the thought of Harry destroying a Horcrux inside him without killing himself. Thinking about this reminds me of the Mirror of Erised and the Philosophers Stone. Harry got the stone because he wanted to find it, but not use it. The point of a Horcrux is the same as the elixir of life, it makes one immortal, and when Harry looks into the mirror he sees himself holding the stone. I don't think I need to reiterate all the reasons why we should consider the final under the trapdoor task as a foreshadowing of the final book so just assuming I did that, lets place Harry-Horcrux before Voldemort in the end of book seven. Harry is looking for a Horcrux, and lets assume that Voldemort too is looking for his last Horcrux after Harry et al destroys the rest, which he has now realised is in Harry. Voldemort wants to use it, because he is afraid of dying ergo he can't kill Harry now, because he will die if Harry kills him too. And neither can Harry kill Voldemort now, because Voldemort won't die unless Harry dies too. But this involutes the prophecy because it means that neither can *die* if the other survives, not that neither can live. Unless we consider also that they aren't ever going to work together and Voldemort will still wish to kill Harry, but survive so he can reclaim his piece of soul, and Harry will not want to live if it helps Voldemort achieve his ends but he knows the Voldemort will not give up trying to kill him, and he must survive to stop Voldemort reclaiming his soul, the only way to survive is to kill Voldemort. So then Harry cannot live if Voldemort survives the battle, for the battle won't end for Voldie till Harry is dead. And Voldemort cannot live if Harry survives the battle for if Harry finds a way to survive it will almost certainly be taking Voldemorts life. So with that in mind back to the mirror of Erised. Harry wants to find the Horcrux but not use it. When he finds it in himself he and Voldemort will begin to battle. This is exactly like the under the trapdoor scenario with one exception. This battle will be neverending until one of them is dead. So what about the gleam? The blood? and the Love in Harry's very skin at the end of PS/SS. Certainly this is how the battle will end with one victorious, but what is it about the blood that they now share? After plotting that scenario my brain is in knots so I'll let you ponder it a bit before I go on with other thoughts. Valky From djklaugh at comcast.net Wed Jul 27 03:08:56 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:08:56 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135152 > Jen: Voldemort has a thing about blood, doesn't he? After witnessing > the forceful use of Harry's blood in GOF, and the blood payment in > the cave in HBP, I think it's a fairly good guess the sealing of a > Horcrux requires the blood of the victim. Taken after death, no > doubt, since the AK wouldn't shed blood. *shivers* > Blood--Voldemort believes it weakens people and Dumbledore believes > in its strength. DD uses it symbolically to forge Harry's greatest > potection. That's the reason for the darn gleam, Dumbledore can see > what Voldemort continually overlooks, that blood is valuable. He > understands Voldemort can touch Harry because Harry's blood weakened > him, not the other way around. Deb: Thanks for your comments, Jen! I agree that both DD and LV have strong beliefs about the power of the blood that runs in a person's veins. Yet LV sees the weakness from the stand point of heredity... is one pureblood or not, is one a true witch or wizard or merely a flawed imitation. Hence his own enormous drive to over come his own heredity.. to become the greatest wizard not just of his own time but of all times... and a halfblood at that. And by becoming immortal... (again speculation on LV's thought processes) sealing his place in the pantheon of what ever dieties the WW holds to... or the hierarchy of Greatest Wizards. DD on the other hand sees blood both symbolically and in reality as the Life Force. I think DD's "gleam" also indicated he saw in someway how this new vulnerability of LV's could be utilized to vanquish him... it maybe that this "additive" will neutralize to some extent other spells and rituals LV might have gone through in his quest for immortality. I think in away DD is hoping that Harry's blood is going to act like an antidote to the emotional and spiritual poisons has been pouring intoo himself for so long. LV now has a bit of that old magic, the magical protection of love, running through his veins, yet it will not protect him as it does Harry (though LV might think that it will). Rather, IMO, it will increase his vulnerability, make him more arrogant, and further is downfall. It is again LV's choice of action- this time to use Harry's blood in this ritual - that has weakened him... Like LV's choice to attack Harry as an infant also weakened him. LV's impulsiveness and arrogance is setting him up to fail. This is his hubris... his exaggerated pride and self confidence that will ultimately be his undoing. > Jen: I'm with you here. I don't see how Voldemort could make a > Horcrux without first performing the murder and possibly using the > blood of the victim to seal the deal. The price for selling part of > his soul. > > And Voldemort must have *desperately* wanted to seal his final > Horcrux that night at Godric's Hollow, meaning he did have six going > in. It would be a victory for him, to have all seven souls sealed > and his enemy vanquished. But the ritual never took place when he > was ripped from his body. > > I'm on the fence about Harry becoming a Horcrux that night. It seems > so important to JKR why Harry survived that night: Lily's sacrifice. > And then she answered the second half of the mystery in HBP: Why did > Voldemort live? Deb: I read the matter of how many Horcruxes a bit differently. As I read HBP I understood DD to be saying that one piece of soul stays with LV ... and the other six pieces are kept hidden and (from LV's POV) safe. I think that LV could not be animate without a piece of soul in residence as it were. Slughorn tells TR in the Penseive (complete) memory " Well,you split your soul, you see....and hide it in an object outside of your body. Then even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one can not die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged. But of course, existence in such a form...few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferable". Now Slughorn is talking here about splitting the soul in half... and TR/LV is thinking of more pieces than that. IMO... here too he makes a fatal error in judgement by choosing to separate his soul into such small parts and to scatter it so widely. But the answer to JKR's question IMO is that Voldemort lived because he had already created the horcruxes... because his soul was already divided. >Jen: JKR definitely likes her characters to live in the gray area, > it's possible she's saying 'look, even with part of Voldemort's soul > Harry is still making the right choices'. But it taints things, too. > Then it wasn't just Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry, it was also > being forcibly sealed as a Horcrux against his will. Magic so dark > you can't even read about it at Hogwarts! Dark, very dark. It would > make a great ending, how Harry discovers he's a Horcrux and what he > does to destroy LV's soul inside without killing himself, > but....there would be some flaws to overcome with that plot > development. Deb: as I mentioned above I don't think Harry is a Horcrux... I think when LV's body and psyche got shattered by the failed spell, Harry got the equivalent of psychic sharpnel which transferred the Parseltongue ability to him.. and I think some of LV's ability as a Legilimens... but in Harry this manifests more as empathy.. ability to read others emotions - when he was "receiving" flashes from LV in OP he was able to quite accurately identify LV's emotional state even at a great distance. Part of the reason, IMO, he does not trust Snape is because Snape is too good a Occlumens and Harry can not read him at all... I think Harry at times senses that Snapes outer aspect and his inner emotional state are not congruent... they don't match up. And this confuses Harry and leads him to misinterpret many things about Snape... as he did from his very first dinner at Hogwarts... when he decides the pain in his scar comes from Snape.. when actually it came from LV/Quirrell. Snape has been trying very hard to get Harry to stop broadcasting his own emotions.. to put up his shields and become unreadable... I suspect Snape can read him very well and knows that LV will be able to also. But I also suspect that Harry feels blunted in someway - less tuned in and less effective-- when he is not able to sense things around him. I think Harry's final task will be how to vanquish LV without killing him... how to end this reign of terror for the Wizarding World without endangering his own soul. He must become "too noble" like Dumbledore to use the Dark Arts he has learned... Deb From o_caipora at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:30:39 2005 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:30:39 -0000 Subject: Back to School (was:Apparation Test ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135153 "rolshan2000" wrote: > But noone from the Order knows about the Horcruxes and it would be > too dangerous (and against Dumbledore's wishes) to tell them. Only > the Trio know (and Voldemort of course). The trio, and Voldemort, and R.A.B., and Someone Else, since Dumbedore tells us the Horcrux's protections couldn't have been beaten without two people. So R.A.B. didn't make the switch alone. So at least six know or knew. - Caipora From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:30:53 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:30:53 -0000 Subject: Age, integrity, and the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hekatesheadband" wrote: > hekatesheadband: > It's noteworthy that Hermione, conscience and rulebook > among lions, never presents it in that way, despite her disapproval > of the book for other reasons. I also note an earlier instance in HBP where Hermione's conscience *doesn't* seem to bother her too much. Specifically, she uses a Confundus spell (do I have the name right?) on Cormac during the Quidditch tryouts to ensure that Ron becomes Keeper. Oh, she justifies her action by saying that Cormac is bad news -- a rare example of a distasteful Gryffindor, by the way -- but certainly I can construe what she did as a form of cheating. Ersatz Harry From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:31:55 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:31:55 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135155 -Cindy asked: > > How did James know Snape's spells to use them on him? > Leslie41 responded: > Interesting! Obviously it's levicorpus that James used on Snape, > as we see in OotP when Snape is dangling upside down with his grey > underwear showing. > > Well, James somehow got ahold Snape's book, obviously. Filched it, > most likely. Snape would never give up the book voluntarily to his > worst enemy, annotated as it was with his excellent notes. > > But obviously, Snape got it back, as it was in storage in his old > potions classroom. > > Though truthfully, as a teacher, I cannot imagine leaving something > so precious in my old office. It doesn't seem like Snape to just > leave it lying around, but then it had to get into Harry's hands, > did it not? > Carol: I don't think James got hold of Severus's book, which would have been a valuable possession at the time. Severus probably taught the spell to his fellow Slytherins and James heard him using it or talking about it. (I hate to say it, but possibly his anger in the Pensieve scene was not so much at his humiliation for being turned upside down and showing his dingy underwear to everyone in his year as at having his own spell used against him. That, evidently, was what rankled. Or so it appears from HBP.) As for the book, by the time Harry uses it, it's fifty years old, and it was Snape's mother's before it was his. The Potions teacher for both Severus and Eileen (a contemporary of Tom Riddle) was Slughorn, who has returned to teach Potions and is clearly using the same textbook he used before, out of date though it clearly is. I doubt that Snape, who brags in OoP about the hig pass rate of his students on their OWLs, and who is told by Umbridge that his students are more advanced than they ought to be for their year, is using a textbook that was written before he was born, especially since he has improved on the methods used to prepare the potions as presented in that book through his own experiments. As someone else has pointed out, he writes the spells on the board (or points his wand at the board and they appear, which is certainly a better method) indicating that they are in his mind and instantly available to him. Perhaps he didn't use a potions book at all in his NEWT classes, or if he did, I'm sure it was the best one available. Also, as someone pointed out, Hermione gets perfect results in his classes by following his directions, as she does not with the potions in the fifty-year-old book Slughorn has assigned. I doubt very much that Severus left this book lying around on a shelf for twenty-one years. More likely he left it at Hogwarts after he graduated. If he had the potions (and spells) in his head as I suspect he did, he wouldn't need it any more. Perhaps Slughorn picked it up on on the last day of class in Severus's seventh year and kept it all these years without looking inside, along with the other used copy that ended up as Ron's. As for the idea that Severus and Lily were Potions partners, which I've been encountering in a lot of posts lately, the only time we see students from other houses working with the Gryffindors is in Herbology, which they have with the Hufflepuffs. We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors working together except in unusual circumstances (e.g., Draco's injured arm and Ron ordered to cut up Draco's roots). We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors as study partners, mostly because of the enmity between the houses but partly because of logistics: they have different common rooms and the only place they could study together would be the library. I can't see Severus, the Half-Blood *Prince,* braving the contempt of his Slytherin classmates by studying with a "Mudblood." There can be no question that the spells in the book are Snape's given his reaction when Harry even *thinks* the first two syllables of "Levicorpus." (And imagine Lily inventing Sectumsempra!). And there should be little doubt, either, that the clever improvements on the potions text, written in the same cramped writing we see in his DADA exam in the Pensieve, are his own. He is a gifted Potions master, as we know from other books (veritaserum, wolfbane potion, etc.) and Slughorn remembers him well as a highly talented student. It's only when Slughorn talks to Harry, when he sees the eyes that remind him so much of Lily, that he mentions how gifted Lily also was at Potions. It's possible that Slughorn, who remembers her with affection and more than a twinge of guilt at his unwitting role in Voldemort's rise to power and her subsequent death, is exaggerating her gifts. He also wants to ingratiate himself to Harry, another reason for doing so. Or it's possible that she was a gifted student like Hermione and did very well in his class without being a genius, as Severus clearly was (and is). At any rate, setting aside any unrequited love that the young Snape may have felt for Lily (and I have no opinion on this theory), I think it's very unlikely that he and Lily were study partners, much less that the notes (written in Severus's handwriting in his book) were hers. She would have written her notes in her own book if she wrote them at all. >From a literary standpoint, if the potions were Lily's the irony would be lost. Harry never listened to Snape or learned any skill in Potions in his classes, but now, thanks to the HBP, whom he doesn't know is Snape, he has an undeserved reputaion for brilliance in Potions, and is learning some useful spells as well--Levicorpus could come in handy against a Death Eater. Muffliato allows him to share secrets without being overheard. It would be foolish not to use such a useful spell just because it was invented by Snape. On the very first day of first-year Potions, Snape asked him in what ought to have been a memorable way what a bezoar was, but it's only the HBP's very un-Lilylike note, "Just stuff a bezoar down their throats," that he remembers when Ron is about to die from the poisoned mead. Ron, in a very real sense, owes his life to Snape, and that, I think, is an important piece of the puzzle that it Snape, one for which JKR has been preparing us since SS/PS. IMO, Lily's importance to HBP is not her supposed talent with Potions, which may be exaggerated by Slughorn's sentimentality and remorse, but her eyes, which ultimately lead him (with some help from Felix Felicis and whatever drink Hagrid was serving) to give up his memory of the Horcrux conversation. That is a crucial piece of another puzzle, how to defeat Voldemort. Carol, wondering how anyone can doubt Snape's brilliance when he saved Draco from Sectumsempra and Dumbledore from the worst effects of the ring Horcrux From jwright at amdocs.com Wed Jul 27 03:27:26 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:27:26 -0000 Subject: IMO Aberforth has Grimauld locket not Mundungus, anyone agree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135156 wrote: > I've seen speculation that Mung and Snape/Draco had the Grimauld > Place locket. Imo Aberforth has it. I think Kreacher has it. If I remember right in OOTP they "threw" the locket away when cleaning the cabinets. Kreacher was known for collecting things and hiding them in his room. I think he took it out of the garbage and has it. Pitaphr From leslie41 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:39:14 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:39:14 -0000 Subject: OotP: That Hazing Scene In-Reply-To: <005d01c59259$2108d9e0$482fdcd1@katmac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kat Macfarlane" wrote: > Ruminations of a nitpicker: With regard to the scene in the Pensieve in which James Potter humiliates Snape: > > 1. How come Snape is running around in nothing but his underwear under his robes? O.K., O.K., it's end of spring term, the weather is warmish, I've been to a fair number of graduations where..., etc., etc., but it does seem as if the Hogwarts students usually wear normal kid clothes under their school robes (see, e.g., PS/SS, p. 110, hb U.S. edition), especially since the robes, as depicted in the illustrations, are rather casually worn and apparently sans zippers. (One wonders whether Hogwarts has any sort of dress code in effect.) > Canon wizards don't wear anything under their robes, most of the time. They don't dress in Muggle clothing. Snape doesn't wear pants under his robes as a teacher, either. The movie Snape--who comes equipped with dozens of buttons and a frock coat--is not supported by the books. > 2. Why does Lily tell Snape to wash his pants (apart, of course, from the fact that they needed it)? Wouldn't laundry arrangements at Hogwarts be a trifle more...magical? > Snape grew up poor. It's evident that poor people at Hogwarts (and elsewhere) have shabbier clothing. Lupin, the Weasleys, etc. Snape's underclothes probably weren't dirty--just grey the way old underwear tends to be. > 3. I wonder whether Snape lashes out so viciously at Lily because he has just been rescued by a girl (and a mudblood at that) from his two most hated enemies. > Which is exactly why he lashes out. > 4. Finally, if Snape is such a hotshot at magic and runs with a tough Slitherin gang (GoF, p. 531, hb U.S. edition), how did he get into such a relationship with the Marauders in the first place? One can easily imagine him being unpopular, even antisocial, but the class victim??? I'd expect any confrontation with James and Co. to be more on the order of jock-versus-greaser battles that made life in my junior high school so interesting. > I don't know if this is supported by canon, but my guess is that James and Sirius--good looking, popular, athletic, etc. nearly immediately started picking on him. Snape was just the type of kid that such boys tend to gather together to humiliate (I remember high school). Leslie41 From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 04:08:30 2005 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:08:30 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135158 I find all this Ginny/JKR bashing really interesting. I was really hoping that Harry and Ginny would get together so was thrilled but not surprised when it happened. JKR certainly left subtle clues throughout the books but clues none the less. You just have to know where to look for them. >From my observation of the books these clues were: PS/SS -: Ginny and the Hogwarts Express. There was no reason for Harry to notice her if it wasn't going to be significant later. CS -: Ginny overcoming her crush to stand up to Malfoy clearly demonstrated that even then, she understood Harry "...he didn't want that". PoA -: Platform 9 3/4, a connection is made whilst laughing at Percy. The first sign of a shared sense of humour. GoF -: At the Yule Ball Harry notices Ginny dancing with Neville and is watching closely enough to notice that she is wincing as Neville steps on her toes. OoP -: Here there are a lot of big clues (firelight reflecting in Ginny's eyes, the possession reminder, chocolate in the library etc) but also some really clever ones. Eg, after Cho walks in on the train carriage Harry wishes that she had found him laughing with cool people and not with Luna and Neville. Ginny is not included in this even though she too is in the carriage. When they arrive in the Great Hall it is noted that Ginny is immediately hailed by a group of 4th years and goes to sit with them - a clear pointer to her popularity. There are also lots of references to Ginny being near Harry during OoP. After he is banned from Quiddich he is sitting in the common room with Hermoine on one side and Ginny on the other. Coming home from St Mungo's on the train Molly leans across Ginny to ask Harry if he is feeling alright - suggesting she is sitting next to him. And as they all cram into the telephone box preparing to enter the Ministry of Magic Ron passes the phone to Harry over Ginny's head. There are probably more but that's all I can think of for now. Trust me, JKR left the clues, you just have to look really closely. Cheers LPD From fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 04:10:08 2005 From: fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com (fitzchivalryhk) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:10:08 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > But I'm not talking about what Snape knows about Peter. I intended > this discussion to be about what Peter knows about Snape - which I > think is far more applicable to whether or not Peter would actually > condemn Snape for turning his back on Dumbledore, and thus bring > about his own redemption based upon Snape's downfall. I don't want > to argue about whether or not Peter is sympathetic or not - been > there, done that, and neither of us are going to change the mind of > the other. I don't think one needs to condemn another in order to achieve one's own redemption. If Peter save Harry, it will be enough evidence for me to recognize his redemption. In fact, I think if Peter turned good, he should be one who's more forgiving to Snape's betrayal (if it is a real betrayal) because Peter has experienced first hand the fear of life that caused him to do horrible things. fitzchivalryhk From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 27 04:24:42 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:24:42 -0000 Subject: A Snape Poll is coming Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135160 Having encountered much discussion of one Severus Snape this past week, and being a curious kind of house elf, I am now in the process of setting up a poll for HPfGU, concerning list members' views on Snape, as he stands post-HBP. If you see that there is no option listed here which accurately captures your view, and which you would like to suggest be added to said poll, please e-mail me directly (as opposed to posting a response to the list!) by 8:00 am EST, Thursday, July 28. POST-HBP SNAPE POLL The following describes my current thoughts about Severus Snape: a) I've always believed Snape was ESE!, and after HBP, I'm SURE of it b) I've always believed Snape was good, and after HBP, I'm SURE of it c) I've always believed Snape was ESE!, but after HBP, I think he's good d) I've always believed Snape was good, but after HBP, I think he's ESE! e) Snape is between such moral catagories, partaking of both, a frayed individual f) I've NO IDEA what to make of Snape Shorty Elf From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 04:29:36 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:29:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: References: <20050726165213.60341.qmail@web32709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135161 I've been following this discussion since its inception, and the combination of Tygrene's comment about cultural differences and phoenixgod2000's comment on how the other women act made me really want to reply. :) Now, I should clarify first that I've always liked Fleur, so that may colour my perception of her personality. (Actually, I admit that, when the GoF movie site first went live, I was really tempted to sign up to support Fleur instead of Harry.) Fleur's actions just never seemed that caustic to me.. Lynn wrote: > She hasn't changed in HBP. She's treating Ginny as if she's 3 > or, in other words, talking down to Ginny. Nice way to treat your > future sister-in-law. Bet she doesn't treat her own sister that > way. She keeps putting down Tonks even though Mrs. Weasley > has made it clear that Tonks is a friend of the family. It makes > no difference whether or not she thought Mrs. Weasley was > trying to push Tonks on Bill, it is rude to go into someone's > home and criticize their friends. And, in doing so, points out > that beauty is apparently everything since the fact that Tonks > isn't taking care of herself is such a mistake, all this while > checking herself out in a spoon. At the moment, I can only recall Fleur "disparaging" Harry as a little boy at the moment when he announced that he was to compete in the Triwizard Tournament alongside three other 7th years. Since that's my only memory of her looking down on anyone younger, I really don't buy into the idea that she, as a rule, looks down on people younger than herself. After all, in GoF, Harry and everyone else fully admits that he is younger and knows less. Having to compete against Harry in the Triwizard Tournament must have been a little bit of a slap in the face to Fleur. When in HBP, I didn't see Fleur treating Ginny like Ginny was 3. In fact, I saw Ginny behaving a little like she was 3, what with the name calling and all. Per her actions and reactions in HBP, I thought she was a little bit blunt, but that's fairly normal considering her background. Everyone seems to be judging her by, I'm guessing, British/American standards of behaviour; frankly, my experience tells me that the French have similar but *different* standards. Fleur was tossed into a household of women who obviously didn't like nor make any attempt to be friends with her. At the very least, Hermione, who has travelled the world, should have recognized Fleur's behaviour pattern and been understanding. After the first 5 books, I had expected better of Hermione, at the very least. I know she's still young, but this was just the first of many petty little things she did in HBP that made me like HBP-Hermione less than pre-HBP Hermione. And really, it makes a huge difference if Fleur was thinking that Molly was trying to push Tonks and Bill together. It is equally rude to invite someone into your home then attempt to destroy her relationship with your son, or at least that's how I view that. (Frankly, if the situation was going to be this preposterous, I don't see why Molly didn't just tell Bill to stash his fiancee in a hotel in Diagon Alley.) Though I now no longer think that Molly was pushing Tonks & Bill together, I know I thought that was true for the first 3/4 of the book, so I can't imagine that it isn't possible for someone else to perceive the same. Please don't misunderstand. I don't think that you should simply tolerate another person's rude behaviour just because their culture is different, but I do think that, when you are conscious of the fact that there is a cultural difference, like Hermione, at the least, should have been, you should make note of that and attempt to bridge that divide before you start making fun of them behind their back. In short, when there is a cultural divide and you're the one who feels insulted, you're going to be held to the higher standard until you've attempted to convey to the other party that she is being hurtful. phoenixgod2000 wrote: <<>> > She's less toxic than Molly, Ginny, and Hermione have been in the > past six books. All three have treated many more people much worse > than Fleurs relatively harmless excentricties. I don't know that I agree completely, though I definitely agree partially. In my mind, the situation goes a little like this: Fleur comes into the Weasley family acting like herself. She prefers things the French way to the British way, understandable since these two countries has a major history of conflicts. She conveys this to the Weasleys, who perceive this as a superiority complex on Fleur's part and decide to dislike her. Hermione arrives on the scene, internalizes the Weasley's dislike and makes it her own with, probably, very little reason other than that Ron is a bit daft when around Fleur. Poor Harry arrives on a charged scene, and it is from that point onward that we see this story. I guess I like this scenario since it makes no one commit a sin worse than the inability to look past superficial behaviours. However, because I do somewhat agree with phoenixgod2000's description of the three other women involved, I'll have to expound further (and apologize for my verbosity). Molly - I've never hated Molly, but she is the epitome of the overprotective mother who cannot let go. You add Bill and Fleur's decision for a relatively short engagement, and it is a recipe for disaster. Not only is Fleur taking Bill away from Molly, but Fleur is doing it in a period of great turmoil for Molly (the new war) as well as being too short a period for Molly to fully cope with the fact that she's going to lose her son to another woman, or so Molly thinks. Ginny - Ginny strikes me as the type of person who is quick to judge but less quick to rethink her judgment, which is a fault too many of us suffer from. As I see her character in HBP, it appears that Fleur likely said one thing that was distasteful to Ginny, and from that point forward, neither girls were destined to be friends. Hermione - Oh Hermione, what happened? As I've already stated, I thought that, even if Hermione didn't like Fleur's behaviours, Hermione should have been more understanding. In short, unlike phoenixgod2000, I think the entire situation was more of a vast misunderstanding and an inability to bridge cultural barriers rather than a situation where all the people involved were just plain obnoxious, though I do agree in the sense that everyone involved was just a smidge obnoxious. ~Ali, who doesn't understand her need to be one of the legions defending Fleur From kempermentor at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 04:36:33 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:36:33 -0000 Subject: Can it be Impedimenta? Was: An AK Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135162 Carol wrote: How, then, can anyone find out what really happened (if I'm right) and deduce that Snape is still on Dumbledore's side, that he performed an act of incredible courage and loyalty by doing what Dumbledore wanted him to do? The abnormal AK is the only outward evidence and somehow Harry must be made to see it. I can think of only three possibilities: Dumbledore's portrait, Mad_Eye Moody (who will recognize the behavior of an Impedimenta spell in place of an AK if Harry tells him the story), or Snape himself at some point saving Harry and somehow having the opportunity to tell him the truth. Kemper has a forth possiblity: Dumbledore has bottled a couple of his memories. Harry discovers the memories among the other bottled memories and the pensieve the Dumbledore has bequethed to him. Harry checks out the memory and learns the reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape and of their arguement in the forest. From geebsy at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 03:49:48 2005 From: geebsy at yahoo.com (geebsy) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:49:48 -0000 Subject: The loop hole - Snape in Dumbeldore's pensive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135163 Caro wrote: > English it is called "The Pensive") and sees Karkaroff's trial > Snape is denounced being a Death Eater. There DD says that Snape > was indeed one but started working as a spy before (!) Voldemort > fell. > But DD tells Harry in HBP that Snape felt remorse that the > Potters died and joined him which was after (!) Voldemort fell. Cheryl wrote: > Did DD tell Harry that Snape joined him after LV fell? If my > memory serves me correctly (I don't have the book right here), DD > told Harry that Snape joined him after realizing how LV was > interpreting the prophecy and finding out which family and boy LV > was targeting. > This could have been before LV's fall, Snape could have been the > one that told DD of LV's plans so that the Potters were hidden. First time poster here: I always had a theory that SS was not evil because it was DD who first recruited him NOT LV. This would explain his deep seated belief that Ss can be trusted. SS may not be a very likeable man and he has some deep physchological problems with Harry (because of James--and perhaps because of Lily-did he in fact deep feelings for her) and many other people. But being a rotten person does not make one evil. If DD had indeed recuited him as a mole and placed him ins LV's growing undergound movement it would explain the deep seated trust DD has in him (ss). It reminds me of movies where someone goes deep undercover--a Wise guy perhaps? and whatever must be done to get information or keep the cover from being blown must be done. (think perhaps Fellicity Shagwell & Fat Bastard in "The spy who shagged me") This might alwo appeal to SS sense of self worth. Doing something sneaky and underhanded for a good cause? Of course I had to stop thinking this when I found out that it was Snape who heard the Prophecy and reported it to LV, but I am working on a theory for that too. Roxane From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 04:54:03 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:54:03 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135164 LPD: > I find all this Ginny/JKR bashing really interesting. LPD, I don't want to cause problems but I consider this comment to be vaguely insulting. It is not `bashing' to critic a writer, even one we're all very fond of, nor is it `bashing' to critic a character's development. I'm sorry, but I find the connection between our valid concerns and `bashing' to be unreasonable. That said, I accept the examples you provided in your post. In my opinion however, they are too tiny and too infrequent to be useful predecessors to HBP!Ginny and this is nowhere better demonstrated than in HBP itself. Sienna From juli17 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 05:00:40 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:00:40 EDT Subject: Murder = splitting the soul? Message-ID: <9a.2a71b0d9.30186ef8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135165 Sherry wrote: However, I would say murder is murder, and there is no right cause for murder. Soldiers have to kill the enemy, and i think that lets them off the hook. Self-defense is also one that would let you off the hook, i think. I doubt that Harry is going to have to do something as mundane as actually kill Voldemort by a curse of some sort, though I have absolutely no theory of what he might do. Even if I begged my best friend to shoot me, and my friend did so, that person would go on trial for murder. i guess that's why I get stuck on the good Snape idea. I can't conceive of *any* reason for Snape to murder Dumbledore that could make it right in my eyes. and what kind of message would that send to children? sherry Julie says: I agree this is a bit problematic. But I suspect we will find out that DD was dying, if not throughout HBP (the dead hand), then after he took his second dose of LV's poison in the cave. He clearly was getting weaker during the whole scene on the tower. He made that enigmatic "after a fashion" comment about returning from the cave. Which leads to another very murky ethical question--Is it murder when you kill someone who is already dying? In this case we have a Snape who simply hastened DD's already looming death so it could serve a purpose he and DD had previously agreed upon, or even Snape who "pulled the plug" on DD's life support at DD's request (if DD still being alive after his first brush with poison via a potion like the Stopper Death one Snape once mentioned). And if this is the case, what exactly is Snape guilty of? Murder? Mercy killing? Or simply releasing DD to the next great adventure known as Death? And if DD was already dying, does "killing" him still leave a stain on Snape's soul? Finally, did DD's comment about "He can't kill you if you're already dead" have a double meaning--was he speaking not just about Draco, but about himself? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From steve at hp-lexicon.org Wed Jul 27 05:01:45 2005 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:01:45 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > > What I'm puzzling about is where in canon is there an actual quote > stating that Tom committed the murders after he graduated (1945),> hg. There is no such quote. The dates for the events of 50 years ago are rather, well, mushy. The Lexicon's timeline is annotated with as much canon evidence as I had when I did the work, last October. Basically, I used the literal interpretation of "fifty years ago" whenever it said that. Of course, there's nothing to indicate that it means EXACTLY fifty years ago. One of my jobs in the next two weeks while I'm in Britain is to go over the timelines again now that we have the new book. Your post is an excellent analysis and I hope you don't mind if I use it as a reference as I go through things again. Steve The Lexicon From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Jul 27 05:05:33 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:05:33 -0000 Subject: OotP: That Hazing Scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leslie41" wrote: > > Canon wizards don't wear anything under their robes, most of the > time. They don't dress in Muggle clothing. Snape doesn't wear > pants under his robes as a teacher, either. The movie Snape--who > comes equipped with dozens of buttons and a frock coat--is not > supported by the books. What about all those sweaters Molly keeps knitting for all and sundry? I can't imagine that the kids are running around in half a dozen sweaters on top (HBP, pp. 239-240, hb U.S. edition) and nothing between that and their trainers? Given the invasive behavior of certain Slitherins, the Weezley Twins, et al., going around bare- bottomed sounds like a good way to get your buns bit, or scorched, or whatever. It must also make quiddich somewhat awkward. (I asked for it--I suppose now I shall have to reread the entire canon and track down all mention of who wears what. :) It does seem to me, though, that wizards suffer a sartorial crisis only when JKR wants to stage an amusing wizard-muggle interaction.) > Snape grew up poor. It's evident that poor people at Hogwarts (and > elsewhere) have shabbier clothing. Lupin, the Weasleys, etc. > Snape's underclothes probably weren't dirty--just grey the way old > underwear tends to be. Wizards don't know from bleach? :) My guess is that like most kids out on their own for the first time, he is somewhat maintenance- challenged. (This from a member whose cousin at Berkeley found out the first time he did laundry on his own *why* his mother had told him not to wash all his underwear with his red sweatshirt... He was known as "Pinky" for most of his freshman year.) > I don't know if this is supported by canon, but my guess is that > James and Sirius--good looking, popular, athletic, etc. nearly > immediately started picking on him. Snape was just the type of > kid that such boys tend to gather together to humiliate (I > remember high school). Me too. :P I just wonder why he and his Slitherin buddies didn't kick more butt. According to Sirius, he could have cursed circles around the Marauders, if not at the time then at some future point when their guard was down ("Who ya callin' Snivellus, pretty boy?"). --La Gatta From jwright at amdocs.com Wed Jul 27 03:47:28 2005 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 03:47:28 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135168 Julie asked: > 1. Why did Snape kill DD? > 2. Why did DD trust Snape? > 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? > 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? "elizabeththedragonslayer" guessed: > 1. Because it is part of the master plan that he and DD devised > which only he and DD know the details of. 1 - Agree 2 - Maybe Snape is the one that brought the idea of the Horcruxes to DD? 3 - James attacked LV. Lily was standing in front of Harry protecting him. All LV wanted was Harry to "fulfill" the prophecy. That is why he told her to step away. He would have killed her anyway. 4 - DD was reminding her that she agreed that Harry could call Petunia's house "home" in order to give him the added protection. Because Vernon was about to kick Harry out of the house. Pitaphr From juli17 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 05:34:55 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:34:55 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) Message-ID: <83.2c62bd8c.301876ff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135169 Betsy wrote: > Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > confidants. When it comes to Order work I was under the impression > that Snape was pretty much Dumbledore's second. If Snape does turn > out to have been Voldemort's man all along, it means Dumbledore was > *completely* fooled. Nora wrote: Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. I suspect that we've been overestimating how much Dumbledore actually tells Snape, in the sense of planning things out as an explicit line of attack. It seems much more Dumbledore's style to let Snape go his own way, and then only step in when necessary. I can't see the good cop/bad cop team that's been hypothesized, anymore. I really can't see the idea that Dumbledore and Snape set up half the things we've tended to think they have. Julie says: I thought what JKR has said was interesting too. Dumbledore doesn't have a confidant, i.e., that *one* person you can share everything with. He carries too large a burden for it all to be shared with one person. He shares much about running the school with McGonagall, I think, who is clearly one of his oldest friends. But he doesn't seem to share much with her about Order business, especially any of it that involves Snape or Harry. Meanwhile, we get the impression he does share quite a bit of Order business with Snape, which only makes sense as Snape is DD's inside man in the DE (or as inside as he can be without the kind of full "betrayal" that would convince LV beyond of his loyalty beyond a doubt--such as killing DD). And I also think DD and Snape do share some plans relating to Harry, as with Occlumency and perhaps the HBP textbook. And then there's the stuff he shares only with Harry, about the prophecy and the Horcruxes (though Snape may know about the latter, while McGonagall is certainly in the dark). I agree that Snape isn't DD's confidante in the fullest sense, any more than McGonagall, or Mad-Eye Moody, or Harry. But DD has still trusted Snape with a *lot* of information, especially over the past several years. If DD's trust in Snape is misplaced, then DD has made a huge mistake, VERY huge, far more so than any other misjudgment we've seen from him, because it affects exactly those he has sworn to protect, the Hogwarts students, and Harry himself. They are all now in much greater danger from Voldemort and the DEs if Snape has truly joined them. This magnitude of misjudgment makes DD not only fallible, but I think his standing as a great wizard would be somewhat tarnished. As for the good cop/bad cop, I still see that as a viable reason why DD allows Snape to run his classes as he saw fit. DD knows how Snape feels about Harry, how hard (and sometimes even unfair) Snape is, but DD also knows that there are some things Harry needs to learn from Snape. So while DD didn't set it up that way, and Snape isn't even aware of it in that sense, DD allows the good cop/bad cop game that goes on between Harry, Snape and himself to continue, because it serves as a learning experience on several levels for Harry (both because Snape does have skills Harry needs to learn, and because if Harry can't stand up to Snape, who may dislike him but won't actually harm him, how can he stand up to Voldemort, who wants to wipe him off the face of the Earth?). All IMO, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 05:39:02 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:39:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135170 LPD wrote: > I find all this Ginny/JKR bashing really interesting. I was really > hoping that Harry and Ginny would get together so was thrilled but > not surprised when it happened. JKR certainly left subtle clues > throughout the books but clues none the less. You just have to know > where to look for them. <<>> Yes, we've all heard the JKR statement that she left anvil-sized clues. I guess there were quite a few people who did pick up those clues. Frankly, though, JKR left just me wondering if her anvils and my anvils were the same size. Yes, the R/Hr clues were anvil-sized; even many of the staunch H/Hr shippers saw those clues. However, I was happily oblivious to the H/G clues. > PS/SS -: Ginny and the Hogwarts Express. There was no reason for > Harry to notice her if it wasn't going to be significant later. Or maybe he's just a rather forlorn boy noticing a rather rowdy family, something he's never had? Harry noticed Mark Evans, too, but we know what a theory disaster zone that one turned out to be. Besides, Ginny is significant to the story for the simple fact that she's a Weasley. There was no reason for me to construe this first notice of Ginny as anything other than a demonstration of the Weasleys' familial interactions. > CS -: Ginny overcoming her crush to stand up to Malfoy clearly > demonstrated that even then, she understood Harry "...he didn't want > that". I took all of Ginny's CoS behaviours with a grain of salt. She was, after all, possessed for the majority of the book. For me, that means that any behaviour JKR assigned Ginny was destined to be more for the advancement of the plot rather than the advancement of her character. > PoA -: Platform 9 3/4, a connection is made whilst laughing at > Percy. The first sign of a shared sense of humour. I've had a similar experience with both of my older siblings, so while I do agree with you in that this moment did help show an advancement in Harry and Ginny's relationship, I disagree that anything romantic had to come of it. > GoF -: At the Yule Ball Harry notices Ginny dancing with Neville and > is watching closely enough to notice that she is wincing as Neville > steps on her toes. My sister picks up on my littlest facial expressions better than even my mother, and I find that she's usually looking out for me in social situations. In fact, since many of my friends are elder siblings, I've been told that this was fairly usual behaviour for an elder sibling. I, therefore, saw the Ginny/Neville dancing scene as more proof that Harry wasn't being set up for Ginny, and besides, on the short list of Hogwarts students that Harry considers important, all of the Weasleys seem to be very high on that list. It makes sense that Harry would be looking out for the youngest Weasley. > OoP -: Here there are a lot of big clues (firelight reflecting in > Ginny's eyes, the possession reminder, chocolate in the library etc) > but also some really clever ones. Eg, after Cho walks in on the > train carriage Harry wishes that she had found him laughing with > cool people and not with Luna and Neville. Ginny is not included in > this even though she too is in the carriage. When they arrive in > the Great Hall it is noted that Ginny is immediately hailed by a > group of 4th years and goes to sit with them - a clear pointer to > her popularity. I disagree that the Cho thing was a clever hint towards a future H/G ship. Instead, it served to cement that Ginny is a popular girl, which I dismissed Harry's noticing as Harry being superficially aware of what his "sister" is doing. > There are also lots of references to Ginny being near Harry during > OoP. After he is banned from Quiddich he is sitting in the common > room with Hermoine on one side and Ginny on the other. Coming home > from St Mungo's on the train Molly leans across Ginny to ask Harry > if he is feeling alright - suggesting she is sitting next to him. > And as they all cram into the telephone box preparing to enter the > Ministry of Magic Ron passes the phone to Harry over Ginny's head. The problem is that I don't really see these hints as "anvil-sized clues." Now that the ship has been deemed seaworthy, I see all these previous situations where Harry and Ginny are next to each other as JKR possibly hinting at the future H/G ship, but when I first read them, I dismissed them. Why? They were MINOR incidents at best! (I guess I was supposed to comb the HP books more thoroughly than The Great Gatsby?) If JKR had said anything other than "anvil-sized clues," I would have attributed the H/G ship to me being obtuse, but JKR said she was being obvious, thereby making me feel like a careless reader for not picking up obvious hints. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate JKR; I don't think any of us do. We have, though, come to expect better of JKR as a writer. It's a fine line, but I do want to make the distinction that it isn't "JKR bashing" so much as "critiquing a writer's work," and oh boy, there was a whole lot to critique in HBP. The H/G ship smacked of "oh goodness, the R/Hr ship is very obvious but that'll mean Harry being lonely so let's invent someone perfect so that Harry won't be alone." And even then, as many other people have said, a Harry pairing would have been fine had we been convincingly sold on it. Ginny's development being "off-camera" and being told to us DOES smack of bad writing, the kind of writing that I got bad marks on during my creative writing classes. For me, the H/G ship would have worked had it been built up in a similar fashion to the R/Hr ship. I don't really see any good reason why R/Hr should be together, but JKR convincingly sold me on the ship based on the facts that these two (1) have feelings for each other, which were demonstrated to me instead of being told to me, and (2) aren't blind enough to think that they are each others' soul mates, found at the very young age of 16. Let's face it; people can and do find love at a very young age, but it happens so rarely that the unbelievability threshold is already very high. The worst part of all, though, is that, at the end of HBP, I'm supposed to believe that Harry and Ginny are in love with each other? Um...up until then, I was willing to buy the "this is an adolescent crush that will be built up to true love in Book 7" theory, but instead of building up those tender feelings, JKR tells me that Harry and Ginny have found their true loves at such a young age. Again with the telling instead of showing! It seems to me that, for such a lauded author, when writing about relationships, JKR would have failed my creative writing classes, because when writing about the romantic life of the HP characters, JKR actually made it pretty easy for me to put HBP, which IS a good book, down. Lastly, as Sienna implied, either way we feel about it, Harry and Ron both have major Oedipal complexes. Oy. ~Ali, who probably shouldn't have written this email but did anyway From badger.hharrington at verizon.net Wed Jul 27 05:38:31 2005 From: badger.hharrington at verizon.net (Jocelyn) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:38:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Am I the only one... References: Message-ID: <42E71DD7.2090001@verizon.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135171 Milz wrote: "But you bring up another problem with Hermione: she allows her biases to get in the way of the advancement. Again, this is an example of not thinking outside of the box. In terms of research and innovation, if you stay within the confines of that box, you limit yourself and your research." Jocelyn: Most people in the world share this flaw. Yet, within the realm of the HP universe, may I point out other wonderful examples of this - Snape's bias against Harry/Harry's parents and the Marauders, and Harry's refusal to stop distrusting Snape. Snape only defended himself from Harry's attempts to hurt him at the end of book 6, in addition to not having helped LV get the Sorcerers Stone (this list goes on, so I''ll end it here.) This will likely make no impression on Harry. Both Harry and Snape have excellent nerves, and are probably thought to 'think outside the box.' They also have biases that become obstacles for them. They are human. As is Hermione. - - I also want to add that Hermione is still learning about the wizarding world. That's what ones school years are for. The fact that she hasn't, to everyone's satisfaction, yet, doesn't mean that she won't. The authority-based mindset Hermione is displaying now, is very relaxed from what it was when she was 11, and getting expelled was the worst thing imaginable. She will likely move even more in this direction by going on this quest with Harry. Also, and this is huge - She's a teenager! There is a reason that minors cannot sign contracts, rent cars (at least here in NY), drink, or vote before they have reached a certain age. They are works in progress with hormone issues. Add to this mix, the house disunity, the coming war with LV and his Death Eaters (magnified by her friendship to Harry), and it isn't hard to understand that she may not have been as focused on Harry and his book as some of us would have liked. Jocelyn From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Wed Jul 27 06:12:39 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:12:39 -0000 Subject: Minor details about Snape in HBP In-Reply-To: <20050726232531.82832.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135172 "d." wrote: > > 1. Harry remarked that Snape disagree with him on the best method to fight dementor. I > wonder if this would come up in book 7? What is Snape unorthodox way other than Patronus? > Or is this going to be one of many Snape's creative alternative ways (like his Princely > notes) to compensate his inability to conjure a powerful patronus because he seems too > bitter to have true happy thought, nor having a positive, strong father figure? > I picture him suggesting something like "to shut your feelings down, would be an efficiant way of not attracting them to start with". Marika From greenminicat at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 27 06:08:56 2005 From: greenminicat at yahoo.ca (greenminicat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:08:56 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135173 Pitaphr: > 3 - James attacked LV. Lily was standing in front of Harry > protecting him. All LV wanted was Harry to "fulfill" the prophecy. > That is why he told her to step away. He would have killed her > anyway. During the Melissa and Emmerson interview JKR clearly says that Lilly had a choice to live or die, that LV would not have killed her anyway. It is all because she had a choice that Harry received the protection he did. I copied this from Mugglenet, Part 1 of the interview: ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live? JKR: Mmhm. ES: Why? JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There's your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice - ES: And James didn't. JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer. MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry? JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen. Hope that clears that point up. G. M. Cat From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 27 07:01:19 2005 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:01:19 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135174 Something I know has been raised about H/G in past discussions (but not AFAIK in the past couple of days) is that she is a Weasley, and that in itself is an attraction to Harry. My brother actually married one of my best friends from school. He started hanging around whenever she came over when he was 14. I don't mean to imply that they were not truly in love when I say that her family was pretty dysfunctional in many ways (which I do not have permission to reveal) and that being part of our loving and sharing family - being a daughter in our household - was a big attraction for her. For Harry, for whom The Burrow is the best home he has ever come across, and the Weasleys the epitome of families, a Weasley girl will definitely have added attractions. I don't find her obnoxious at all - in fact I am puzzled that so many people on the list find so many characters obnoxious. What - we're all perfect? I find very few characters obnoxious, as JKR has generally left enough clues for us to understand what insecurities or motives underly annoying behaviour. Perhaps you can rank me with Lupin, as someone who finds it difficult to hate, preferring to try to understand. Jocelyn G From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jul 27 07:21:39 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:21:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Learning and Teaching In-Reply-To: <20050726180542.MTDA20730.eastrmmtao04.cox.net@Heim> References: <20050726180542.MTDA20730.eastrmmtao04.cox.net@Heim> Message-ID: <42E73603.8000803@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135175 weildman wrote: > > I think the most telling aspect of the HBP potions book is the revelation > that it belonged to Snape. This absolutely genius improvement in a 50 year > old textbook is allowed to gather dust instead of improving the knowledge of > students. I believe Snape failed as a teacher when he failed to use his > greater knowledge of the subject to improve the text for the course. I > don't know what his reasons for withholding this knowledge was, but in doing > so he failed his students and the wizarding world. The fact that he could > have shared this knowledge and didn't is really telling about his character. Why do you make the assumption that if Snape was teaching the Advanced Potions, he would not be using the improved instructions? In all the Potions lessons that we've seen in books 1-5, Snape does not tell them to follow the instructions from the book, he puts his own version on the blackboard. For all we know he was giving them HBP treatment all along. Irene From kjones at telus.net Wed Jul 27 07:27:36 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:27:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV and Snape - Ubreakable Vow and others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E73768.7000600@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135176 B.G. wrote: > Perhaps LV and Snape made an UV that LV would not kill Lilly. Why? > Maybe to reward Snape for a job well done (prophecy). LV had no use > for Lily and didn't care if she lived or died so no skin off his > nose. BUT in anger when she wouldn't move from Harry he killed her > and as the AK bounded off of Harry and the broken UV did its magic - > LV's body was destroyed (skin from his nose and all). > Whatcha think? > -BG- Kathy writes: I have a hard time believing that Voldemort would have anything to do with an unbreakable vow with one of his "servants". That would be like Malfoy taking a vow with one of his house-elves. I could see Voldemort offering her to Snape as a reward for his information. KJ colebiancardi > I think that DD messed up when he got the ring - he wasn't aware, > perhaps, of the power of a horcrux. after all, Harry destroyed the > Diary and he didn't get hurt from that. Unless, of course, Harry is > the only one that CAN destroy horcruxes. Remember that DD stated if > it wasn't for his skill & Snape's "timely action", he would be a dead > man. > > colebiancardi Kathy writes: In the book we are told that there was a plan for Malfoy to take the book to the school, so any wards, or protective curses would have been removed from it. Malfoy screwed up when he used the diary, prior to receiving permission, for his own ends. He was not aware that it was a horcrux. That is likely why Harry was not injured when he destroyed it. The other horcruxes are going to have some powerful enchantments protecting them. I think that the protective spells are the problem not the destruction of the horcrux. KJ Karen > I think that he is desperate for Snape to carry out the coup de > grace so as to spare Harry. Harry poured the poison down > Dumbledore's throat. If he had to live the rest of his life in the > knowledge that he killed Dumbledore, however much it was following > Dumbledore's orders or for the greater good, it would break Harry. > This way he has no certainly that his actions would have killed > Dumbledore. As far as he is concerned Snape did it. Karen Kathy writes: I think that this is a very valid point. Dumbledor had several very strong reasons for having Snape do the job. I believe that he knew he was dying and did not want his death wasted, he wanted Harry protected from the belief or accusations that he was responsible for DD's death, I think, to a lesser degree, that he would prefer that Draco not be the murderer, and he wanted Snape to be in a position of strength with Voldemort because of it. I really don't get the impression throughout the books that Dumbledore gave a tinker's damn about the Slyth students. I think that is one of the huge mistakes he admits to making. KJ Alla Just as previous poster, I am not quite sure why the idea that Dumbledore can be wrong again seems surprising. Alla Kathy writes: A lot of the wrong moves Dumbledore is accused of have to do with the various teachers hired for the DADA job. I think Dumbledore makes use of this position to find out who is applying for it and it tells him something. Dumbledore knew that V was coming back, and I think suspected all of the teachers in that position. Quirrel was watched pretty closely by Snape. Lockheart seemed to be brought in merely to show dueling in CoS and to demonstrate to Harry et al that they could handle an adult wizard. Lupin was brought in, I believe, when Sirius escaped, partly to draw Sirius, partly so they could keep an eye on him as there was still an outstanding spy to be captured, and Moody was used to demonstrate that a really effective teacher, and all round great guy can still be the evil one. That was very effective. I loved Moody. I couldn't believe the reversal on that one and there seemed to be no forewarning of it in the book. Snape was finally given the job because it was no longer an issue that he remain at Hogwarts. Snape was being sacrificed for the good of the cause and he had a job to do. KJ From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 08:05:01 2005 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Dragonetti) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: <1122303935.5524.16741.m33@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050727080501.72095.qmail@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135177 Remember the last term of the Unbreakable Vow, should Draco seems to fail, will you complete the mission. Well Draco certainly seemed to fail the mission, therefore Snape had to kill Draco. Concerning the hate that materialized in his face, remember we are seeing the scene from the point of view of Harry who might be biased to the point of misreading what Snape's expression was. And if he was right, the hate can be not towards DD but towards himself or Narcissa for the Vow. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 08:10:14 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:10:14 -0000 Subject: How did Dumbledore know about the cave? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135178 I was surprised when Dumbledore suddenly announced to Harry that they had to go to the cave, because I couldn't see where he found out all the info about it. It's tricky to get to, full of traps, rather unpleasant - but they just march off and get there straight away. I think I've missed something in the book, so maybe I can be pointed in the right direction? I've had a couple of looks, but I can't find the right bit. Sandra (confused at this hour of the morning already) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 27 09:24:22 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:24:22 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135179 Hickengruendler: First of all, I am and always was a Ron/Hermione shipper, and there is about no pairing I like less than Harry/Hermione. I also suspected that Harry/Ginny would become a couple, therefore I can't say that I'm surprised. However, I do not think that it was well done. (And quite frankly, it is really rude that people who critisize some aspects of the books are called a JKR basher. I obviously love JKR's writings and her books, otherwise I would not be a member of this group. But it is just fair game to mention the things I didn't particularly like. Nobody is above criticism after all, and JKR herself never made a secret of things she disliked about other author's works). I will not again repeat why I think Ginny's development in OotP and HBP was overdone. My arguments didn't change, and I think neither did anyone's counter-arguments. I will focus instead of the H/G couple and particularly the scene after Dumbledore's funeral. Does this scene feel in any way earned? First of all, it doesn't make any sense. I don't see why Ginny is in any less danger now. As a Weasley and as someone, who already fought the Death Eaters twice, she's a very likely target (and Mrs Weasley's clock agrees with me). Therefore it does not make any difference if Harry and Ginny are a couple or are not. Ginny is still in danger and so is about everyone else ibn the Wizarding World. But also: Harry and Ginny spoke in it, as if they were deeply in love, soul-mates and whatever. But is there really anything in any of the books that hints to this? Did Harry and Ginny ever have a meaningful conversation on-page? The only scene where I can remember them talking with each other without anyone else present was the chocolate scene in the library. What this scene showed was, that Harry could confide in Ginny and that they are good friends. But soulmates? I don't think so. Nonetheless, I think it could have been a good first step for a H/G pairing, if we had seen them interact in any meaningful way again. But they didn't. Harry basically got sexually interested in her and than they kissed. I wouldn't have minded it, because it's actually a very normal thing for teenagers. However, it is in direct opposition to what this last scene wants us to make believe, namely that H/G is a very special relationship, while in fact it was pretty much presented the same way Ron/Lavender was: All snogging, no talking. The bits of foreshadowing mentioned like Ginny chasing the train are all very well. But foreshadowing does not replace an actual development of the relationship, which never happened with Harry and Ginny. Hickengruendler, who does not think that people have found their soulmates at the age of 16, but for the sake of storyline would accept this, if were presented believably From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 27 09:43:38 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:43:38 -0400 Subject: A contradiction to consider Message-ID: <006101c5928f$ab13b020$a9c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135180 Abigailere said: >So, how come Draco, and more importantly Snape, fled off-grounds to apparate away from the school? Wasn't it Dumbledore's spells which protected the school from apparations and disapparations? CathyD Now: IMO, I think some of these charms, enchantments, spells, were set in place when the founders built Hogwarts. They were built in to the protection system. It's unplottable, you can't apparate in or out, you can't get in by stealth, etc. I think, probably, each different Headmaster has added his/her own spells, echantments, etc, protecting the school as he saw fit during his time as Headmaster. Including Dumbledore. During HBP we know DD put even more specialized enchantments in place (the chian-locked gates). I'm sure some of Dumbledore's spells and enchantments may have stopped when he died, but of course, McGonagall would have put them back in place. Or, the very real thing we don't know is that if some charms may outlive the Wizard/Witch. Apart from this it would be force of habit, wouldn't it? Everybody knows you can't apparate out of Hogwarts, they were in a rather pressing situation and didn't have time to think..."Oh yeah, DD's dead, we can apparate right from here." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 27 09:48:47 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:48:47 -0400 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus Message-ID: <006501c59290$62a93750$a9c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > Lynn said: > "Well, actually, it could kill his furry rear end. Remember, he's > living with the werewolves and, since many are listening to Greyback, > they could very easily be turned against him. All it would take is a > word from Snape." > SNIP > > Inge: > how can Remus live among his kind - > unharmed and trusted? Sharon said: >I don't have my book with me either - can someone look up that scene at Christmas? I vaguely remember Remus saying that he *wasn't* trusted, not entirely, because he'd spent so much time living amongst humans, whereas most of the werewolves lived apart from society. I think this is what made his position difficult and incredibly stressful. CathyD now: " 'I am not complaining; it is necessary work and who can do it better than I? However, it has been difficult gaining their trust. I bear the unmistakeable signs of having tried to live among wizards, you see, whereas they have shunned normal society and live on the margins, stealing - and sometimes killing - to eat.' " Then later he says " 'I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood, and we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people.' " (HBP pg 313,314 Can Ed) I think Lupin, as spy, is trying to convice the werewolves that he has finally seen the evil of his ways - living with wizards - and has finally reformed and come back home where he belongs. Responding to Lynn and Inge. Yes, it would only take a word from Snape to blow Lupin's cover. Except you're forgetting, they are both in the Order of the Phoenix. And Dumbledore trusts Snape, for a very good reason. And Snape was keeping Wormtail away from LV, wasn't he? Spinner's End was the perfect hiding place for Wormtail, for both sides. Snape could keep an eye on him for LV and for Dumbledore at the same time. LV doesn't want Wormtail repaying his debt to Harry Potter, after all, and Dumbledore doesn't want Wormtail telling tales. I do think Lupin as a spy among werewolves is definitely in the past, as he was fighting against the DE's and Greyback at Hogwarts the night of DD's death. Kinda blew his cover a bit there, didn't he? But it ovbiously wasn't going well anyway, so perhaps DD pulled him out for his own protection. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:26:01 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:26:01 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive / Lily and AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135182 > G M Cat quoted: > MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in > front of Harry? > > JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it >never happened before. No > one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could >happen. > from the JKR interview. This has definitely *not* cleared it up for me, and I have been puzzling for ages about this, since way before HBP came out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the special thing about Harry was that he had *survived* an AK curse. However, if Lily stood in front of Harry when LV cast the curse then it seems to me that Harry never actually got AKed. So even after this JKR interview, I am still confused about it. Below are some cannon points to explain my reasoning: 1. Evidence from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard scene suggests that there was no extra AK curse, cast either before or after Lily's death. Immediately before Lily emerges, Bertha Jorkins comes out. After Lily has emerged, James follows immediately. (UK ed GoF p578/9) I have always interpreted this to mean that the curse that killed Lily was the only curse cast at Harry and that was the one which backfired and robbed Voldemort of his body. 2 Now for evidence from OotP ch36 p717 The MOM battle scene. Voldemort sprays AKs around like he's watering the lawn in this scene, and none of them hit the target. The first one is destined for Harry, but DD animates the Centaur which gets in front of Harry and takes the hit. He then lobs another three unsuccessful ones at DD, then finally comes the one which is swallowed by Fawkes. Would we say that Harry has survived one, and DD has survived 4 AK curses at this point. No, not in my opinion. Either an inanimate object saved him, or in the case of Fawkes, a living being, took the curse and died for him. They have only survived in the context of being threatened by an AK curse, but not actually getting hit by it. Whatever the curse hit first, took the hit and the intended target *was left unscathed*. So what puzzles me is the inference that Lily stood in front of Harry and sacrificed her life by taking the AK meant for Harry and that was somehow unique. If this is all that is meant, I can't see that Harry can be considered as having *survived* an AK curse. The curse did not reach him, so how can he have survived it. Isn't this just the same as DD being saved by Fawkes? In the interview, Melissa continues after the bit quoted above: MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way So it seems to me that there has got to be more to this than Lily simply putting herself between Harry and Voldemort and taking the hit. Obviously, JKR admits that other people have chosen to die for others, yet she is almost implying by that, that the intended target died as well, i.e they didn't survive like Harry did ? which doesn't seem to make any sense either. But anyway ? what was the unique choice that Lily faced, and what was the particular way it was given. One option which I really think should be born in mind as a possibility has already been posted: I wrote in a previous post: > DD says to Harry (UK Ed > p473, ch23) "I am sure that he was intending to make his final > Horcrux with your death. As we know, he failed." Which implies to > me that the curse which he used to try and kill Harry was somehow > more than a straightforward AK curse, it also had something else > bound into it that was designed to create the Horcrux. Valky then wrote a fantastic post suggesting ? horror of horrors ? Voldemort wanted to make Lily a Horcrux. I would recommend reading this one, it's post 134566. Valky wrote: >Two spells at once appear to be possible. So could Voldemort have >tried to do double magic at Godrics Hollow? > >He points an Avada Kedavra at Baby Harry, a finisher. And at Lily he >points the little Horcrux experiment he had in mind.. >equal-connected-horcrux. > >Lily jumps in front of the Avada Kedavra and she dies. > >Sometime after this happens Voldemort's body is dead, Harry is scarred >and has collected some of Voldemorts powers in the process. > >So the final Hypothesis. > >The transfer of powers and the mark of equality were a result >deliberate efforts by Voldemort to secure himself a final Living >Horcrux, an ultimate demonstration of his unmatched power. How Harry >ended up with them is anybody's guess. Why Harrys Muggleborn Mother, >who knows? Voldies Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Just a last thought to muddy the waters even further. Who actually knows what happened at Godric's Hollow? We suspect that there was someone else there, and JKR hinted as much in the Mugglenet interview. But my guess is that they are keeping quiet about it. DD doesn't seem to know. So if no-one really knows what happened, how do they know that Harry *survived* an AK? Saraquel From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:28:47 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:28:47 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135183 First off, let me say that I was never for H/Hr. I was always a R/H shipper, I guess I just like their bickering ;-) Secondly, I have to say that I took JKR's comment about "anvil-sized clues" as referring *only* to R/H, and not at all to H/G. My understanding is that she was only talking about H/Hr and R/Hr, and saying that she always led us to believe in the second one. As for H/G, I had absolutely *nothing* against it. The idea of One Big Happy Weasley Family always appealed to my overly-sentimental side, so I had no problem envisioning Harry and Ginny together. But... Hickengruendler wrote: "I will not again repeat why I think Ginny's development in OotP and HBP was overdone. My arguments didn't change, and I think neither did anyone's counter-arguments." Del replies: Ginny's development was way overdone for me too. I forced myself to accept OoP-Ginny, under the excuse that she was finally coming into herself, that the circumstances had changed dramatically, that many other secondary characters (Neville, Luna) were also being given a lot of exposition, etc... But then we get into HBP, and things still don't make any sense. JKR seems to always be hesitating between exposing more of Ginny and keeping her under the radar. Almost every single time Harry has a chance to be with Ginny alone, she runs away to be with Dean! And where EVER did his sudden jealousy come from?? It's not like Harry didn't know that Ginny was dating boys, and Dean in particular. So why does it suddenly bother him? Am I *really* supposed to believe that it's just because he SAW Ginny kissing Dean?? If that's the case, then his reason to like Ginny is no better than his reason to like Cho was. Honestly, all that telling about how Harry couldn't stop thinking about Ginny suddenly, how he dreamed of her, this reeked of infatuation, not love! It's EXACTLY the same kind of thing he did with Cho: being irrationally jealous of her boyfriend, spending hours dreaming or day-dreaming about her while *at the same time* spending very little time actually interacting with her, and so on. So I never saw any reason to believe that Harry's interest in Ginny was anything more than a crush, like he had on Cho. As an aside: am I the only one who was profoundly annoyed by Harry wondering whether Ron would approve of Harry dating Ginny, when we KNOW that Ron *always* wanted his best friend and his sister to get together? At the end of OoP, he couldn't have been more clear about it, when he looked at Harry while telling Ginny to choose her next boyfriend a bit better. So I found Harry asking himself the same question over and over again to be extremely irritating. Hickengruendler wrote: "I will focus instead of the H/G couple and particularly the scene after Dumbledore's funeral. Does this scene feel in any way earned? First of all, it doesn't make any sense. I don't see why Ginny is in any less danger now." Del replies: Agreed. The only Hogwarts student who died so far was not someone Harry particularly liked. And when Harry came back from his little trip to the cave with DD and saw the Dark Mark, it was painfully obvious that there was nothing he could have done if it was Ginny who had died. So Ginny is in no way in more or less danger whether she is with Harry or not. Not to mention Harry's "saving-people-thing": does Harry really think that LV wouldn't attack or capture Ginny if he didn't think Harry loves her? Come ON! LV knows that Harry would take risks for *anyone*, AND he knows that Harry *already* took risks once to save *Ginny*. So that whole "we have to split blah blah blah" is just silly IMO. But the very worst part of it IMO was one of Harry's lines, when he says: "It's been like... like something out of someone else's life, those last few weeks with you." When I read that, my mind went HUH?! And now my reaction to it is an emphatic SHOW, DON'T TELL! As much as I love JKR, she spectacularly failed to show *anything* about how being with Ginny changed Harry's life. It feels like this isn't at all the same writer who wrote so superbly about Harry's fear in GoF, about how it made him feel, about how it changed his view on everything. It's not the same writer who wrote about Harry's short temper in OoP, how he was always about to explode at the slighest excuse. And it's definitely not the same writer who wrote about Harry's crush on Cho, how it gave him butterflies in the stomach and so on. This is a MAJOR let-down for me, especially since I so love a good love story. We do not see or feel ANY difference in Harry, his life, his feelings, when he is finally going out with Ginny. In fact, it seems to me that being with Cho had more influence on him than being with his supposedly great love. Not good writing, definitely. Hickengruendler wrote: "But also: Harry and Ginny spoke in it, as if they were deeply in love, soul-mates and whatever. But is there really anything in any of the books that hints to this? Did Harry and Ginny ever have a meaningful conversation on-page?" Del replies: Nope, especially not as boyfriend/girlfriend. As I said, we had more exposition of the Harry/Cho relationship than the H/G one! We went through every step of the evolution of Harry's relationship with Cho, but we don't see ANYTHING of Harry's relationship with Ginny. This is crazy. Hickengruendler wrote: "Hickengruendler, who does not think that people have found their soulmates at the age of 16, but for the sake of storyline would accept this, if were presented believably" Del replies: I personally don't even believe in the concept of soulmates. I do beleive that some people are extraordinarily fitted for each other (like my husband and I, it keeps amazing us), but soulmates? Nah. My husband and I have had to *work* to make our relationship work, but Harry and Ginny seem to just blissfully be happy together. Blah! Two strong characters like them, just get along without hitches? I don't think so! But then why oh WHY aren't we allowed to see them interacting as bf/gf, see them making conscious efforts to make the other happy, see them dealing with the little hitches that must happen every now and then? WHY??? *THAT* would have convinced me that they belong together indeed! It might even have made me cry when Harry decides to ditch Ginny to protect her. Instead, I'm left with this feeling that I've been watching a bad TV movie, where the characters get together for no better reason than the script says so, and where only the music has a chance of making me cry when the hero sacrifices his love relationship for the greater good. Hey, even in those bad TV movies, you actually get to SEE the happy couple spending time together, eating ice-cream, playing in the park, watching a movie together, or kissing under the stars. If there is no time, all we get is an accelerated view of all those snippets linked together with a sweet happy romantic music, but at least we get to SEE it. Not so for Harry and Ginny. How disappointing. Del From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:46:20 2005 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:46:20 -0000 Subject: mainly about ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" < [Sienna quoting interview] > "... lot of this is predicated upon a necessary hate for another > character. Ron has suffered horribly at the hands of Harry/Hermione > shippers" > > Is incorrect. Both H/Hr and non-H/Hr shippers disliked Ron. I, for > instance, liked Ron (just not for Hermione). No theories surrounding > H/Hr were 'predicated' on *hatred* (a very strong word) of Ron. Just > another barb we were forced to endure. Why so much vilification? > Hi Sienna Dont know how long you've been on this group, im just a lurker, but i remember in the post GoF pre- OOtP era there were a lot of Prejudiced! Ron/Traitor!Ron/Evil!Ron theories floating around (stemming no doubt from his prat like behaviour in part of GoF.) A lot of these threads tied in with H/H shipping (not all but quite a few) as a reasoing that if Ron proved the bad guy Hermione would definitely wind up with Harry. Richard Jones > If Ron is going to become a hero in > Book 7, he is going to have to change dramatically all of a sudden. Alla replies: >>At the age of eleven he did not hesitate to put himself in the line of fire in the chess game. At the age of twelve he knows really well why "mudblood" is a very offensive word to say At the age of thirteen he is willing to be killed by Sirius while protecting Harry<< I agree totally with Alla but I think what Richard is saying is that he would like to see Ron in action, doing something spectacular that helps Harry defeat Voldy. The problem with that is that its Harry's book. Ron and Hermione are there to help surely but its Harry's adventure. Some people feel Hermione helps Harry a lot more than Ron, (looking up spells, helping him outwit Umbridge, etc) but I think they are both at par if you compare them qualitatively rather than quantitatively: i.e it's the kind of support Harry gets from both his friends rather than the number of times either one helps him. Hermione is Harry's advisor, his research department, his press agent and his strategist. Ron I feel, is his morale booster, his cheering squad, his sounding board (he often asks Ron about things which he thinks Hermione would disapprove: HBP book a case in point). In OotP its Ron who spots Harry's hand after he's been through another detention with Umbridge and guesses what she has been up to. I thought that was a wonderful friendship moment scene. So I think both are as important to Harry and both are heroes in their own right, even if they don't get as much of the action as we would like to see cheers shagufta (ardent ron fan) From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 11:04:40 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:04:40 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135185 vmonte: I always knew that Ginny and Harry would become a couple. CoS was a big clue for me. Ginny stands up for Harry at the bookstore, even though she was shy around Harry at the Burrow. The fact that JKR chose Ginny as the recipient of the diary was important. Think about it? JKR could have easily slipped the book to Ron, but she didn't. She gave it to this new character, a girl. And the fact that JKR made one of the Weasley's a girl is also important. Besides the fact that saving the "sleeping" princess from the clutches of a basilisk, a dragonlike, monster is more interesting to me than a guy saving another guy. This scene felt like foreshadowing to. I also liked that Ginny (during GoF or was it OOTP?) tried very hard to make Harry happy by trying to get him to hook up with Cho, even though this was probably killing her inside. She was more interested in Harry's happiness, instead of her own. I never once believed that Ginny was over Harry. What I did see, though, was a girl that was not stupid or a pushover. I liked the fact that she moved on to other boys when she realized that Harry was not interested. The scene where Ginny and Harry share the chocolate egg also had symbolic meaning. Harry and Ginny do after all "share" something in common. Harry is unlike any of the other students at the school, and he often feels lonely because of it. This scene is very interesting in how Harry reacts to Ginny. Cho has nothing over Ginny, either. I laughed in one scene when Harry said to Cho: "You're not going to start crying again are you?" which just happened to be what I was thinking as well. I also liked that JKR should Ginny playing Quidditch against Cho, and that she clobbered Cho (Cho even starts to cry---AGAIN!). Harry needs someone that is strong enough to handle the kind of life Harry leads. I like Ginny, but that's JMO. Vivian http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-ginny.html From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Wed Jul 27 11:10:34 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:10:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... AND why Snape dislikes Hermione In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135186 On Jul 26, 2005, at 4:05 PM, Milz wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nanagose at a... wrote: > > > Nobody is saying Hermione is a genius, but she's still highly > > intelligent. JKR, having been a teacher, shows us different kinds of intelligent people. Which is best? It's akin to comparing apple, oranges and other fruits. Dumbledore is the true genius. He was both book smart and creative. He passed his NEWTS doing things with wand that amazed his examiner. And in JKR's words, he was mostly self-taught. He knew the material in the text, but experimented and came up with novel ways of doing things. The ideal doctoral graduate is supposed to be breaking new ground. The highest academic (not administrative) positions in academia are supposed to earn these positions by demonstrating a career of research and new ideas (usually called "publish or perish") Hermione is an extremely bright student. Many of the best students go to class having read the lesson ahead of time hand. One of the best students that I knew in college was always a lesson ahead of the teacher. This type of student doesn't sit and wait for the teacher to " spoon" it to them. Many of these type of students make it to the doctoral level too, but typically have trouble with completing their dissertations. Many too go on to become practicing medical doctors and lawyers. Think about it. Unless we are totalty desperate, do we really want our physicians to be experimenting on us? Fred and George are bright too. They remind me of the computer techies Bill Gates et al.) who don't finish college, but make fortunes with new ideas. And then there is is Luna's mother, who was bright and very creative, but dead because of experimentation. Reminds me of Curie's and their work with radium. And then there's Mung. Street-smart. I shouldn't be writing this. It's too earlier to be coherent... Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) (`'?.?(`'?.?-:?:-?.?' ?)?.?'?) -:?:-??..-:?:-* ~ Barbara~ *-:?:-..??-:?:- (?.?'?(?.?'?-:?:-`'?.?)`'?.?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 11:20:09 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:20:09 -0000 Subject: A question on LV's soul(s) and Harry not a horcrux. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135187 Ok, this is not a bout horcrux!Harry, but it is about LV's soul and it contaminating Harry. Ok, so we know that LV used the killing curse on Harry and due to his mother's sacrifice he survived with nothing but a scar and a bit of LV's power. (Seems like a bounced back effect, ricocheting back at him or something?) Then again, it could have been something else. I think it was something accidental during the process of LV's body being destroyed. Has anyone read the 'changeling theory,' because this has a bit to do with that, sort of. I think it was that now that LV has his horcruxes, he can't be killed. (Doesn't matter how many he has as long as he has ONE at this time.) So he goes to GH to kill Harry, and DD's suspicion was that he was going to use Harry's death to make yet another. (Perhaps the final,) horcrux. But it doesn't happen as planned and LV can't make a horcrux when he has no body to hold a wand! So he is 'less than the meanest ghost' and needs to possess others to survive, aside from being simply Alive due to the fact his soul is still safely ensconced within a horcrux somewhere. So what if a part of LV's soul that had split in his attempt to kill Harry, (or had previously in his killing of James and was still floating around the area...) and been contaminating Harry all of this time? That would explain his parselmouth and the connection to LV's emotions/mind, if a bit of LV's soul took refuge in Harry's body through the scar, since it would need a container, so to speak, and Harry was vulnerable to it? Does this make sense? I think it would have been possible in the magical backlash, to have done so. LV would still be a wandering soul/existance, and still be as he was described in the book, and Harry would have had a piece of LV accidentally, which wouldn't make him a horcrux but more along the lines of just connected in a small way. Maybe the blood needed for the potion to revive him had lessened or removed that connection, and that was what had gotten DD's attention? Maybe now it's LV that's contaminated with a bit of Harry's loving soul? Any other thoughts? Chys From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 27 11:29:35 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:29:35 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > I always knew that Ginny and Harry would become a couple. CoS was a > big clue for me. Ginny stands up for Harry at the bookstore, even > though she was shy around Harry at the Burrow. The fact that JKR chose > Ginny as the recipient of the diary was important. Think about it? JKR > could have easily slipped the book to Ron, but she didn't. She gave it > to this new character, a girl. And the fact that JKR made one of the > Weasley's a girl is also important. Besides the fact that saving > the "sleeping" princess from the clutches of a basilisk, a dragonlike, > monster is more interesting to me than a guy saving another guy. This > scene felt like foreshadowing to. > > I also liked that Ginny (during GoF or was it OOTP?) tried very hard > to make Harry happy by trying to get him to hook up with Cho, even > though this was probably killing her inside. She was more interested > in Harry's happiness, instead of her own. I never once believed that > Ginny was over Harry. What I did see, though, was a girl that was not > stupid or a pushover. I liked the fact that she moved on to other boys > when she realized that Harry was not interested. > > The scene where Ginny and Harry share the chocolate egg also had > symbolic meaning. Harry and Ginny do after all "share" something in > common. Harry is unlike any of the other students at the school, and > he often feels lonely because of it. This scene is very interesting in > how Harry reacts to Ginny. > > Cho has nothing over Ginny, either. I laughed in one scene when Harry > said to Cho: "You're not going to start crying again are you?" which > just happened to be what I was thinking as well. I also liked that JKR > should Ginny playing Quidditch against Cho, and that she clobbered Cho > (Cho even starts to cry---AGAIN!). Harry needs someone that is strong > enough to handle the kind of life Harry leads. > > I like Ginny, but that's JMO. > > Vivian > > > > > > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-ginny.html Hickengruendler: It's not that I really disagree with your post. I can see the symbolism as well, even though I don't particularly like all of it. However, symbolism is one thing and interaction another. You can't base a ship solely on symbolism. Seeing that I always thought that H/G would happen, I might agree with you, that there was some romantic foreshadowing involved regarding Harry and Ginny in the previous books. However, foreshadowing is one thing and the execution another. What is the use of all this foreshadowing and symbolism, if we never see Harry and Ginny interact? Delwynmarch said it very well, not only came Harry's feelings for Ginny out of the blue, but the relationship between them was pretty much ignored once they became a couple. JKR wrote that Harry, Ginny, Ron and Hermione all hung around with each other, and that was it. There was no interaction between Harry and Ginny after they kissed (and not to mention that there hardly was any before they became a couple as well). Not even them simply having fun with each other. If JKR intended to portray H/G in HBP as a deep and meaningful relationship, than she failed to convince me of this. In fact, until the very end I saw it as a typical teenage relationship not unlike Ron/Lavender (though with the possibility of it developing into more) and then came the after funeral scene and it suddenly dawned on me, that it was meant to be true and deep love, which it was simply not what I saw when reading the book. Hickengruendler, who really liked book 6, just not this particular subplot From nrenka at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 12:18:43 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:18:43 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!) In-Reply-To: <83.2c62bd8c.301876ff@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > Julie says: > And I also think DD and Snape do share some plans relating to > Harry, as with Occlumency and perhaps the HBP textbook. I'm having a hard time imagining the textbook being a setup. But that's probably another thread. > And then there's the stuff he shares only with Harry, about > the prophecy and the Horcruxes (though Snape may know > about the latter, while McGonagall is certainly in the dark). > > I agree that Snape isn't DD's confidante in the fullest sense, > any more than McGonagall, or Mad-Eye Moody, or Harry. But > DD has still trusted Snape with a *lot* of information, especially > over the past several years. But now I ask--do you have any *proof*? I think we've all assumed that Snape was being told a lot more by Dumbledore than he may have been. For instance, Dumbledore may not have gone into details with the "teach Occlumency" instruction, but told Snape to do it without much further explanation. There is absolutely no positive evidence that Snape, even in his role as spy, is being let in upon Dumbledore's command of the larger issues being faced by the Order. It may well be "Severus, your report?", and then Dumbledore giving more orders. > As for the good cop/bad cop, I still see that as a viable reason > why DD allows Snape to run his classes as he saw fit. DD knows how > Snape feels about Harry, how hard (and sometimes even unfair) Snape > is, but DD also knows that there are some things Harry needs to > learn from Snape. So while DD didn't set it up that way, and Snape > isn't even aware of it in that sense, DD allows the good cop/bad cop > game that goes on between Harry, Snape and himself to continue, > because it serves as a learning experience on several levels for > Harry (both because Snape does have skills Harry needs to learn, > and because if Harry can't stand up to Snape, who may dislike him > but won't actually harm him, how can he stand up to Voldemort, who > wants to wipe him off the face of the Earth?). With good-cop/bad-cop it's always been posited as a *deliberate* thing. For instance, I don't think that Dumbledore really understands (or understood) the level of animosity between Snape and Harry, and he as much as admits so at the end of OotP. It is not, it seems, Dumbledore's style to go "Harry needs a lesson and I need him to do X, so Severus will do this and I'll do that." It is Dumbledore's style to let Snape go his own way, because he considers it better for people to fix their own problems and mistakes rather than have them fixed for them. His perpetual optimism about human nature taking hold, you see. I would submit that in this case it hasn't been terribly productive, over the years, and that's a rather damning detail. In fact, I'm rather tickled and exceedingly glad that JKR didn't take the fanfic route, whereby Harry grovels at Snape's feet and apologizes for his many sins, after which Snape reluctantly agrees to mentor the idiot boy. Snape was Harry's teacher in HBP, just in an indirect way--one which highlights some of the more (to put it kindly) unpleasant aspects of his personality, but also a practically sad loss of potential. -Nora says: how do we know what we know? From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 27 12:18:30 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:18:30 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > wrote: There are probably other things he knows, but I can't think > of any > > more clear-cut examples and these surely suffice to show what kind > of > > man Wormtail is. > Azriona: > Actually, I disagree. If you looked at the facts surrounding Tom > Riddle or Draco - or even Snape - you'd realize the same thing about > them: they did some pretty awful things. However, the difference > between their actions and Peter's is that we have motivation for > them, the things that caused them to do what they did. We have no > such motivation for Peter, and thus I believe that most of the fandom > believes that he did these things without any sort of reasoning > behind them; in short, because he was just evil and rotten to the > core. Marianne: I don't think I completely agree here. Peter tells us himself in PoA that Voldemort was taking over, there was no use in resisting and he was afraid he'd be killed. He never, ever in that scene says a word of remorse or regret that his actions led to Lily's and James' death, even when he's pleading with their orphaned son for his own life. Now I will agree that I don't think he was rotten to the core or born evil. But, I do think he made choices that were morally wrong. You can argue that we don't know what made him turn spy, and again I'd agree, but I don't think that lack of knowledge can be used as an excuse for Peter's actions. Azriona: > Did Peter do some horrible things? Yes, of course. But so did > Dumbledore. So did Sirius. So did Snape, and Draco, and Riddle. I > don't believe you can condemn any of them until you know why they did > it. Then condemn, or punish, as necessary. But blind punishments or > condemnation just because of things you have largely received from > hearsay is not just. Marianne: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by hearsay. Are you saying that we're not sure that Peter is guilty of murder? Or that, although he did murder people, he might have had, if not forgivable, at least understandable reasons? Yes, all the people you listed have done some bad things. But, two of them are already canonical killers. Maybe Sirius intended to kill Snape with the Prank; maybe not. Maybe Snape killed people in his DE past; maybe not. Maybe Draco will grow up to be a pure DE who keeps his hands free of other people's blood; the jury's still out on that. To our knowledge at this point in the series, Dumbledore, Sirius and Snape have never killed anyone. I think there's a big difference in equating their misdeeds and the sins of Peter and Voldemort, regardless of anyone's motivation. Azriona: > But I'm not talking about what Snape knows about Peter. I intended > this discussion to be about what Peter knows about Snape - which I > think is far more applicable to whether or not Peter would actually > condemn Snape for turning his back on Dumbledore, and thus bring > about his own redemption based upon Snape's downfall. > Peter, truth be told, may in fact know a lot more about Snape than we > do, particularly as the two have been living together for an > undisclosed amount of time. But what I'm not certain of is whether > or not Peter knows Snape's true alliance (not that we know that, > either, for that matter). If Peter believes Snape to be loyal to > Voldy - why would he condemn him for killing Voldy's enemy? And if > Peter believes Snape to be loyal to DD - what would he think of that > man's murder? Marianne: One question we don't have an answer to is why Peter is with Snape? Is he actually assisting in some task Vmort has set for Snape? Or is he there as Snape's manservant? Why would Peter, who diligently worked with Vmort during GoF to bring him back to a corporeal form, suddenly fall out of favor to the point of being made someone's houseboy? The fact that Peter is creeping around, listening at doors (even if ineptly so) doesn't sound like the action of a completely cowed servant. Is his position there two-fold - help Snape with whatever Snape is doing and report back to Vmort on anything suspicious that Snape does? Does Voldy usually try to have his inner circle keep tabs on one another, pit them against each other so that they effectively do his bidding and spy on their fellows for him? Certainly Snape must have realized that Peter would tell Vmort about the visit from the Black sisters, even if he didn't hear all the details. On the other hand, could Snape have modified Peter's memory so that this scene would be wiped from his mind? My thinking about that scene in HBP is that it was put in as a reminder to the reader that Peter is still there. And that, spite of his loyal service to Voldemort, he is held in some contempt by Snape and Voldemort. Maybe they are forgetting that Peter was also looked down on, to some extent, by James and Sirius. He might once again surprise the people who overlook him or take him for granted. Marianne From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 12:31:13 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:31:13 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135191 CoS, Page 310 "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted....I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." "What d'you mean?" said Harry, whose mouth had gone very dry. vmonte: I keep thinking that Ginny might know something that will help Harry in book 7. Tom Riddle was 16 when he created the diary, which we now know wase a horcrux. What secrets could Tom have told Ginny? Does Ginny have information that might help Harry to find some other horcruxes? Just a quick question. Does anyone know what Ginny's Patronus is? Vivian Great essay on Ginny can be found here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=ginny2 From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jul 27 11:16:44 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:16:44 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135192 > Betsy Hp: > > And I agree with Magda's over all point. Why on earth would JKR > give away the answer to her books? That's another reason I'm > dismissive of her interviews (especially with regards to characters > like Snape and Draco) as theory foundations. Because the final > destiny for Draco and especially Snape is far too important for JKR > to tells us about in an interview. > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or even deliberately misleading? Draco IS an evil little traitor. That he might have a failure of nerve isn't sympathetic or worthy of warm feelings. He is guilty of two attempted murders and betrayal of Hogwarts. Quite frankly, from a purely practical point of view, everyone would have been better off if he had died from the Sectumsempra curse (assuming that Snape isn't ESE and wouldn't have killed Dumbledore anyway, which I don't think he is). Why would she reveal secrets in her interviews? That's a very good question. I think the answer is that a lot of times she doesn't think they're secrets. To wit the "anvil sized hints" she was dropping over the shipping issue. Now, I'll grant you that her anvils sometimes seem to be different sizes than a lot of other people's, and I think sometimes she is understandably naive about how her story reads to someone who, unlike her, doesn't already know all the backstory and the ultimate outcome. Still, I don't know of any quote that can be taken as false or deliberately misleading. It's true that many of them have been misinterpreted by all of us, but that's just life. If anyone complains at the end of the day, "JKR fooled us," she can in all truth reply "You fooled yourself." Lupinlore From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jul 27 12:39:39 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:39:39 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135193 > Hickengruendler: > Delwynmarch said it very well, not only > came Harry's feelings for Ginny out of the blue, but the relationship > between them was pretty much ignored once they became a couple. JKR > wrote that Harry, Ginny, Ron and Hermione all hung around with each > other, and that was it. There was no interaction between Harry and > Ginny after they kissed (and not to mention that there hardly was any > before they became a couple as well). Not even them simply having fun > with each other. Joj writes: I agree with you all who feel this way. In fact, Harry seemed to care more about Ron and Hermione's reaction to his kissing Ginny than to Ginny's reaction to it. Why didn't we get Ginny's reaction? All of Harry's worries were about how Ron would feel. He never worried if Ginny would reject him or not. Not one moment of doubt when he spontaneously kissed her. He didn't look down to see if she was ok with it or not. If JKR intended to portray H/G in HBP as a deep and > meaningful relationship, than she failed to convince me of this. In > fact, until the very end I saw it as a typical teenage relationship > not unlike Ron/Lavender (though with the possibility of it developing > into more) and then came the after funeral scene and it suddenly > dawned on me, that it was meant to be true and deep love, which it > was simply not what I saw when reading the book. > > Hickengruendler, who really liked book 6, just not this particular > subplot I agree. I lobster hate Ginny with Harry. It seems like not more than a physical attraction to me. I can buy Jo's reason for keeping Ginny under the radar before the relationship, but not during! Why on earth should I care about Ginny? It says a lot to me that I care more about Luna and Neville, who apparently are now no more important than Dean and Seamus. Joj From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jul 27 08:29:49 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:29:49 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: <83.2c62bd8c.301876ff@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135194 > Julie says: > > I thought what JKR has said was interesting too. Dumbledore doesn't > have a confidant, i.e., that *one* person you can share everything with. > He carries too large a burden for it all to be shared with one person. > He shares much about running the school with McGonagall, I > think, who is clearly one of his oldest friends. But he doesn't seem > to share much with her about Order business, especially any of > it that involves Snape or Harry. That is a good point. However it is also a matter of interpretation. The emphasis JKR put on Dumbledore's isolation seems to indicate that he has a generalized failure to connect on multiple levels. After all, NO ONE has a confidant in the global sense you indicate, or at least very few of us do. > > Meanwhile, we get the impression he does share quite a bit of > Order business with Snape, which only makes sense as Snape > is DD's inside man in the DE (or as inside as he can be without > the kind of full "betrayal" that would convince LV beyond of his > loyalty beyond a doubt--such as killing DD). And I also think > DD and Snape do share some plans relating to Harry, as with > Occlumency and perhaps the HBP textbook. Well, I don't think we know much about this, and arguments can be made either way. I think postulating that the HBP textbook was some plot of DD's and Snape's is quite a stretch, although at this point nothing much could surprise me. As to generally sharing Order business, a spy who comes into frequent contact with a murderous mind- reader is about the LAST person you want to impart crucial secrets to, even if that spy is extremely good at shielding his mind. Obviously Snape and Dumbledore do have quite a bit of communication, as you point out with regard to Occlumency lessons. But precisely what is communicated is still quite a mystery, and JKR seems to indicate that DD was probably holding his cards very close to the vest even with Snape (as we know he was with McG). > > And then there's the stuff he shares only with Harry, about > the prophecy and the Horcruxes (though Snape may know > about the latter, while McGonagall is certainly in the dark). > > I agree that Snape isn't DD's confidante in the fullest sense, > any more than McGonagall, or Mad-Eye Moody, or Harry. But > DD has still trusted Snape with a *lot* of information, especially > over the past several years. If DD's trust in Snape is misplaced, > then DD has made a huge mistake, VERY huge, far more so > than any other misjudgment we've seen from him, because > it affects exactly those he has sworn to protect, the Hogwarts > students, and Harry himself. They are all now in much greater > danger from Voldemort and the DEs if Snape has truly joined > them. This magnitude of misjudgment makes DD not only > fallible, but I think his standing as a great wizard would be > somewhat tarnished. I agree that for Snape to have been ESE these last seventeen years would not reflect well on DD at all. However, as Nora has pointed out, there is a LOT of territory between completely ESE and "Dumbledore's man through and through to the death." To take the Occlumency example, Dumbledore was confidant after knowing Snape more than two decades (counting Snape's time as a student) that Snape could put aside his personal feelings for James to meet the pressing needs of the moment. Dumbledore was mistaken, and Snape's failure to do as required was a contributing factor to the tragedy that followed. It may well be that this was meant to show us how dangerously disconnected Dumbledore had become from the emotional lives of the people around him, and thus to prep us for Snape's betrayal if and when DD pressed him too hard on a sensitive subject. That doesn't make Snape ESE for seventeen years. It does make him a badly damaged man under tremendous pressure who has started to experience all sorts of mental and moral fissures. And DD by his own admission did not understand how deep some of those cracks went. Does this make DD a fool? Not at all, it makes him human. Many intelligent and resourceful people badly underestimate the emotional reactions of people they have known for decades -- as any divorce lawyer will attest. And the more detached, to use JKR's word, one is, the more likely it is that something like this will happen. > > As for the good cop/bad cop, I still see that as a viable > reason why DD allows Snape to run his classes as he saw > fit. DD knows how Snape feels about Harry, how hard (and > sometimes even unfair) Snape is, but DD also knows that > there are some things Harry needs to learn from Snape. > So while DD didn't set it up that way, and Snape isn't even > aware of it in that sense, DD allows the good cop/bad cop > game that goes on between Harry, Snape and himself to > continue, because it serves as a learning experience on > several levels for Harry (both because Snape does have > skills Harry needs to learn, and because if Harry can't stand > up to Snape, who may dislike him but won't actually harm > him, how can he stand up to Voldemort, who wants to wipe > him off the face of the Earth?). > True. But really that just comes down to the fact that Dumbledore has reasons for his actions and policies, which I don't think anyone ever doubted. The classic meaning of good cop/bad cop is that this is a deliberate drama consciously set up between the players. That is the theory that was popular among fans, and the theory to which Nora is referring, I believe. And that is the theory that seems to have been dealt a body-blow by various recent revelations. It just doesn't seem that Dumbledore acted on that level of intimate cooperation with anyone. Indeed, Harry may be the first person in many, many years to reach the kind of rapport with Dumbledore he had achieved at the end of HBP. That may well have been a large part of DD's affection for Harry, that he saw in him a young man who could, after so very long, be the confidant DD had been denied. Lupinlore From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Wed Jul 27 09:20:39 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:20:39 -0000 Subject: How did Dumbledore know about the cave? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135195 Sandra wrote: > I was surprised when Dumbledore suddenly announced to Harry > that they had to go to the cave, because I couldn't see where he > found out all the info about it. > I guess that Dumbledore has been analysing everything he knows about TR for quite some years to try and get hints or clues as to where he might put the horcruxes and in what relics. It seemed very clear in the book that the cave incident was significant as it was mentioned more than once. I would assume that Dumbledore therefore made a connection between that and a possible hiding place for a horcrux. He may have made other connections from the past, like the connection that some on this site have made between a horcrux and possibly Godric's Hollow. Once he had made the connection all he had to do was find the caves location, and once he realised how tricky it was to get to it he would probably have realised that it would be a perfect hiding place. As he said, it wasn't easy to find because of where it was situated in relation to the beach. I guess in order to track it down he could have examined someone else's memory - maybe on eof the two children TR took there and terrorised, or he may have just investigated the area as he already knew the place where the children had been taken on holiday. It doesn't specifically state how he found the horcrux's location, nor where the ring was found or how it was found, nor how the ring horcrux was destroyed and what happened. Maybe these things will come to light. Snape must know the ring story because he saved Dumbledore when he arrived back 'near to death'. Wapp13 From racket at club-internet.fr Wed Jul 27 09:28:18 2005 From: racket at club-internet.fr (julie) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:28:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E753B2.6080400@club-internet.fr> No: HPFGUIDX 135196 Boolean wrote: > Boolean: > One thing struck me when reading Chapter 3 of HBP again, which I hadn't > properly picked up on the first time is what Dumbledore says to Petunia > and Vernon about Dudley. Julie: I don't think Dudley is a wizard. Firstly, in OotP he can't see the dementors and even a squib like mrs Figg can. Secondly, If he were a wizard he could have done magic when he was frightened to shield from wizards like when the weasleys come in privet drive to fetch Harry to go to the quidditch world cup From samwisep at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:16:12 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:16:12 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135197 Hi Potterphiles! In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Snapeo'phile From mandyallen286 at fsmail.net Wed Jul 27 09:41:58 2005 From: mandyallen286 at fsmail.net (wapp13) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:41:58 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135198 Carol wrote: > I don't think James got hold of Severus's book, which would have been > a valuable possession at the time. Severus probably taught the spell > to his fellow Slytherins and James heard him using it or talking about > it. Don't forget James had an invisibility cloak! He could very easily have eavesdropped on any other students, as Harry has with said same cloak! Admittedly it does nto state in the books that James owned it at Hogwarts but he likely did. Wapp13 From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:27:49 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:27:49 -0000 Subject: Did R.A.B. drink the Kool-Aid? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135199 I've read a number of ponderings on who helped R.A.B. steal the locket and how they did it. Here is another possibility. As some one mentioned, (about 2000 posts ago), Lucius Malfoy was entrusted with the possession of the diary. Perhaps R.A.B. was delegated with the task of hiding to locket in the cave. Instead of hiding the locket, he hides a fake and pockets the real thing. Is there any indication that you have to empty the toxic birdbath to place an object in it, or can you just drop what ever it is into the soup and take the next ferry home? Another point. I'm not yet in the school that thinks that Harry is a horcrux. I'm still thinking, four founders, four objects. I also think that Hermione is going to be the one who does the grunt work in the library to figure out what the last two objects are. Question: Are witches/wizards who grew up with and spend there summers with Muggle families influenced by Muggle ideas? Hermione went to school, one assumes, with Muggles before she enrolled at Hogwart's. She also comes from a family of professionals. She must have been exposed to computers along the way. I'm surprised that she hasn't created herself Google-ish magic index of the library. Guru From literature_Caro at web.de Wed Jul 27 12:15:46 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:15:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I want opinions on this, please. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <913992261.20050727141546@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135200 Dilia: Not with standing, call me nave, but I > believe Dumbledore was not wrong about Snape, as much as I hate him. > Dumbledores down fall, however, was Snapes promise to protect Malfoy, > and to complete his task if he was not able to Snape would have died > if the task was not completed. Moreover, maybe Snape went through it > all, because maybe Dumbledore was already dying, his hand was rotting, > and he never told Harry what happened to him. Maybe, just MAYBE, Snape > thought he would be more of a help to Harry alive, than Dumbledore. Well I think you are quite right and by the way if DD already was dying that Snape's death would not have changed anything. The other Death Eaters would have killed him anyway. I think DD also demanded death from Snape's hand because Grayback already said he would like to taste DD. So the AK was the quickest way and I think I won't go too far saying that the others would have had "tehif fun with him" before finishing him off. So this would have meant a (more) painful death and and even worse experience for Harry. And we don't know whether there was some kind of binding promise Snape gave to protect Harry or not. Caro From fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 07:10:27 2005 From: fitzchivalryhk at yahoo.com (fitzchivalryhk) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:10:27 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135201 P. Alexis Nguyen wrote: > The worst part of all, though, is that, at the end of HBP, I'm > supposed to believe that Harry and Ginny are in love with each other? > Um...up until then, I was willing to buy the "this is an adolescent > crush that will be built up to true love in Book 7" theory, but > instead of building up those tender feelings, JKR tells me that Harry > and Ginny have found their true loves at such a young age. Again with > the telling instead of showing! It seems to me that, for such a > lauded author, when writing about relationships, JKR would have failed > my creative writing classes, because when writing about the romantic > life of the HP characters, JKR actually made it pretty easy for me to > put HBP, which IS a good book, down. I agree with the above. I was never a shipper, and it does not really matter to me Harry goes with who. However, the descriptions in HBP about Harry's feeling towards Ginny have convinced me that what Harry felt was a crush, albeit with more sexual tension than the one he had with Cho. Before their kiss, all Harry felt about Ginny seems to be consisted of possessive jealousy or sexual urges. We noticed how the beast inside Harry roared (*snicker*) when he saw Ginny, or how Harry was jealous when he saw Ginny kissing someone else. After the kiss, we were told that Harry and Ginny got together frequently, besides that, no development of emotional depth whatsoever. So when the end of the book tell us they share an undying love, I am surprised and felt a little cheated. I would have liked more description on how their love developed, or how they get beyond physical attraction towards each other. For now, I just think of them as teenagers who believed they were perfect for each other, but weren't. fitz From blairb82 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 08:10:19 2005 From: blairb82 at yahoo.com (blairb82) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:10:19 -0000 Subject: Theory: The Prophecy, Horcrucxes, and "that" night at Godrics Hollow- long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135202 This has been something bubbling in my brain for a week or so and while it comes mostly from speculation, I like it and hope others will either jump on the bandwagon or put me in my rightful place. Anyway here goes. The Prophecy states that "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches". To me this seems to state that the prophecy was made before Harry and Neville were born. Assuming this LV had over a year to decide which boy was the one to attack. Hold with me now because this is where i start to guess. At one point either before or after the prophecy was made LV went after Frank and Alice Longbottom to retrieve something of Ravenclaw's. The reason why they held this relic come from speculation but with some knowledgeable hints. Firstly, Rowling likes to use names and wouldn't it be fun if the Longbottoms were the "bottom"of a "long" line, i.e. family. Secondly, though I can't find which House Frank Longbottom was in, I guess it was Ravenclaw because Gram Longbottom states in the Hospital scene in OoTP that he was very gifted (don't have that book on me to make sure but I believe so) meaning that he was very smart thus placing him in that particular house. Meanwhile Gram has always reminded me of the mother who married into a family and was overly proud of the son she produced being a part of a great fatheridge. Getting back to the theory- LV had already made ring, diary, locket, and cup into Horcuxes, and saw the relic of Ravenclaws as his next. On that fateful trip to the Longbottoms, he took 4 DE's with him knowing he was facing two aurors in the Longbottoms. The 4 he took with him were two old trused ones- the Lestranges- and two new ones he cared little about- Regulus Black and Barty Crouch Jr. After their success at stealing this relic of Ravenclaw's LV was a little too open and Regulus found out what was going on. Regulus realized that the locket had already become a Horcux and set off to destroy it. The note from RAB says "I have desroyed THE Horcrux" not "YOUR Horcux". Knowing enough to bring another locket in the Horcux's place, he was able to remove it but not destroy it. Shortly afterwards Regulus was hunted down and killed by his fellow DE's because LV reralized what he had done. No matter who removed the locket LV now had six pieces of his soul seperated, the 4 mentioned earlier, his new one of Ravenclaws, and himself. Beyond taking this object of Ravenclaws and making it a Horcrux for himself, he also took some properties from the object. It was now under the heir of Slytherin's control and thus could no longer protect those of Ravenclaw's line that would automatically have some brains about them, namely Neville. Knowing this LV assumed that Harry was his only threat between the two boys. So, with some time to think on it, LV sought out Harry and was able to find him inn Goderic's Hollow. James confronted LV trying to protect his family but LV overtook him. LV also foud a suitable object in the house to make Harry's death a horcrux for. (This works as Goderic is the name of LV's last remaining founder and he wanted Harry's death to become a Horcrux. Thus LV continued with his most trusted servant (Nagini, who always followed his orders because of his gift w/ Parseltounge) into the room contianing Harry and Lilly. LV did not need Lily, had seen women as weak since his revalation of his own mother, and thus felt he did not need to kill her. She sacrificed herself none the less and gave Harry his protection. Having killed Lilly, LV cast the AK curse on Harry and quickly afterwards began the spell to make a Horcrux. However the AK curse rebounded off of Harry and hit LV. Because LV was in the middle of the Horcrux charm and had not killed Harry his killing of Lilly and or James became the death he needed and Nagini became the Horcrux. Meanwhile the destruction of the part of LV's soul that was still within him, caused the scar on Harry's forehead that resembles the crack in the destructed ring. Not all of this part of LV's soul dissappeared, part of it knew (or thought it did) that Harry should have died and thus took root in Harry himself, giving Harry powers of LV. LV, with no parts of his soul within himself but still alive thanks to his Horcuxes, became a phantom of sorts and ran away. Shortly afterwards the Lestranges and Barty Jr realized that what they had done at the Longbottoms could bring clues as to reviving LV. the 3 DE's tortured the Longbottoms in hope of finding something, but all the Longbottoms could tell them was that an old family heirloom had been stolen. Not being able to give the proper infromation, Frank and Alice were Crucio'ed into insanity. So we pick up at the end of GoF. LV has finally realized that Nagini is a Horcrux (He had not before or else he would have used her to bring himself back to a sort of body and would have realized that this would be easier than breaking into Hogwarts to steal the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's stone) and by nursing off her has gotten to baby!LV state. LV takes blood from Harry- releasing the miniscule part of his soul that was in Harry, but not undoing the connection they aquired from LV's failed Horcrux. It is this fact that brings the "gleam" in Dumbuldore's eye because he now knows that Harry need not die to defeat LV. Thus the total number of Horcruxes are 7: The Diary-destroyed, the ring- destroyed, the cup, the locket- which VM still is unsure that it has been tampered with, Nagini, that which he took from the Longbottom's that is of Ravenclaw's, and his partial soul he took from Nagini and Harry. This theory explains several things. Firstly an underlying reason why VM chose Harry instead of Neville. Secondly, why Neville is a late bloomer, he didn't have his Family's power and thus must find the power within himself, as Harry has shown him, and to a certain extent his torture by Bella has given him. This theory shows why the Longbotoms were attacked even though no DE's knew of the Prophecy, and how Horcruxes fit into the arc of the whole story. Lastly it speculates that Neville might have his day after the Ravenclaw Horcrux is destroyed and how VM has a weakend part of his own soul withinn him that will allow Harry to successfully destroy VM. I know I have speculated much in this long idea but it seems to fit and hopefully I won't be blown out of the water when book 7 comes out. For those of you still with me thanks for your patience, I hope I havn't stepped on anyones toes and please let me know what you have to say, even if you have to send an email to me that explains how much of an idiot I am. Yo'm Blair From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 27 12:54:39 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:54:39 -0000 Subject: Is Snape right about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > You know, reading Remus in HBP puts me in the very uncomfortable > position of having sympathy for Snape's viewpoint. I'm thinking > especially of his speech to Harry over Christmas (the one written in > nineteenth-century prose). Marianne: YES! So I'm not crazy! I read that and thought "Who is this guy?" because everything seemed so formal and stilted and not at all like Remus' normal speech pattern. Lupinlore: They are scrupulously fair, reasonable, > and patient. Unfortunately those qualities can shade swiftly into > indecisiveness, passivity, and (to use a very loaded word) out and > out weakness. > > I think Remus at the Xmas celebration is operating very close to the > dividing line, and sometimes steps over it. My response to his > statement "I neither like nor dislike Severus Snape" was a snort > followed by "Yeah, now tell me the one about the tooth fairy." Marianne: I'm not sure this was a matter of Lupin trying to be scrupulously fair about things. It struck me as his usual reticence to openly emote about things, but taken to an extreme, as if he was saying to himself "I must not complain. I must be grateful I received the Wolfsbane for a year. I must not complain about the part Snape played in getting me sacked. I must not complain about my assignment from Dumbledore, even though it is based on that part of me I most hate - being a werewolf." But, it definitely struck me that Lupin was exerting control on what he was saying and how he said it. Maybe, as another poster has suggested, he simply is dealing with a lot - Sirius' death, Tonks' pursuit of him, etc. This control is another reason I have a problem with the Remus/Tonks thing in the hospital scene. I almost got the feeling that Remus has been trying to discourage Tonks all along with all sorts of reasons because he couldn't actually say "I like you, you're a nice person, but I'm really not interested." And, with everyone else (Molly, Arthur, etc.) pressuring him to accept her, he eventually gives in. There does seem to be a certain passivity with Remus in that he's accepting of whatever fate hands to him because that's how he's dealt with things all his life. I'd dearly love to see him lose his temper in a spectacular manner, for the shock value alone. Marianne From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 27 13:07:59 2005 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:07:59 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, > which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the > Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't > have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of > age to go to the ball. My guess is that she borrowed something appropriate from a wealthier friend who wasn't invited. A lot of her year (most?) couldn't go, and she is - as everyone keeps mentioning - very popular! Jocelyn G From literature_Caro at web.de Tue Jul 26 23:46:50 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:46:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minor details about Snape in HBP In-Reply-To: <20050726232531.82832.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050726232531.82832.qmail@web30314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <712737236.20050727014650@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135205 > 2. Harry specially noted that Snape used an unknown healing spell that sounded like a > song. It heals Malfoy's deep bloody cut fast and well. No one in the series so far seems > to use this before (or I don't remember ever reading about it). It was stressed how near > perfect it healed facial wound that Harry wonder about it again at the end at hospital > room when he saw Bill's mangled face. What could the song-like healing spell be and if it > will come up again in book 7? > D. I rather think that this is not a general spell but the exact counter curse that too can be hidden somewhere in his potions book. BTW as Lupin says Bill's wounds are cursed ones and that his future behaviour will be up to the grade of infection. Being a werewolf therefore is being infected with an incurable curse. Of course it would have been interesting to see whether this counter curse would have worked but I doubt it for it was used for deep magical cuts and not for the infective bites of a werewolf which have a different nature. Caro From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 12:30:05 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:30:05 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135206 Hickengruendler: > However, symbolism is one thing and interaction another. You can't > base a ship solely on symbolism. Seeing that I always thought that > H/G would happen, I might agree with you, that there was some > romantic foreshadowing involved regarding Harry and Ginny in the > previous books. > > However, foreshadowing is one thing and the execution another. > What is the use of all this foreshadowing and symbolism, if we > never see Harry and Ginny interact? If JKR intended to > portray H/G in HBP as a deep and meaningful relationship, than she > failed to convince me of this. David: I don't care really about the ships, as they're only a diversion to the main plot-line of Harry vs. LV. I do agree with you that the H-G relationship went seemingly 'deep' very quickly. I had the same impression though of much of the book, almost as if it was a rushed effort. She seemed determined to ensure this book was shorter, even if it compromised the over-all product. I can only hope #7 is not short-changed. JMHO of course. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Jul 27 13:27:47 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:27:47 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > Betsy Hp: > > > > > And I agree with Magda's over all point. Why on earth would JKR > > give away the answer to her books? That's another reason I'm > > dismissive of her interviews (especially with regards to characters > > like Snape and Draco) as theory foundations. Because the final > > destiny for Draco and especially Snape is far too important for JKR > > to tells us about in an interview. > > > > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or even > deliberately misleading? Hickengruendler: "[Regulus Black] is dead, so he is pretty quiet these days." (The question was, if we would hear about him. It's from the World Book Day Chat in March 2004). Obviously this is the truth and she didn't lie to us. But after what we learned in HBP, and considering that JKR as good as confirmed that R.A.B. is Regulus, it certainly can be called "deliberatly misleading", in a way, that we all assumed that regulus did not have a role to play in the overall storyarc. From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 27 13:28:42 2005 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:28:42 -0000 Subject: Slughorn Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135208 Somebody - I'm sorry, but I although I looked I couldn't find the relevant post - suggested that Slughorn might have disguised himself as DD and taken the hit for him. This struck me as extremely improbable when you think of Sluggy's behaviour the first time we meet him! Self-sacrificial he is NOT! *LOL* However it started me thinking - HOW did he disguise himself as a chair in 2 minutes? Could he be a metamorphmagus like Tonks? Polyjuice is obviously out. Illusion? Is any of this relevant at all to DD's death or 'death'? Just a few thoughts which have been preoccupying me. It is 11.26pm here and I thought I might as well use up my third post for the day! My 8-year-old is asleep with HBP under his pillow, so I can't check the details. Jocelyn G From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 13:13:53 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the unbreakable vow, Snape (as everything seems to come back to him) In-Reply-To: <1122463782.1814.96924.m31@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050727131353.44472.qmail@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135209 Dragonetti: Remember the last term of the Unbreakable Vow, should Draco seems to fail, will you complete the mission. Well Draco certainly seemed to fail the mission, therefore Snape had to kill Draco. Concerning the hate that materialized in his face, remember we are seeing the scene from the point of view of Harry who might be biased to the point of misreading what Snape's expression was. And if he was right, the hate can be not towards DD but towards himself or Narcissa for the Vow. Now Catalyna: I'm sure if he has to kill Draco if he fails, Narcissa would not have made the UV. If he did not complete the mission after Draco failed, Snape would have been killed. As for the hate and loathing on Snape's face; could it be he finally found out what Draco's mission was and the hate and loathing were actually for Draco? I believe Snape tried to find out what the mission was, but didn't know for certain until he was face to face with Dumbledore. A line caught my ear rewatching COS last night. I know I'm misquoting "but Fawkes is loyal to those who are loyal to me." Perhaps this will be able to show that Snape is loyal still no matter what Harry believes. But, this may not play and we find Snape is the villian... I think this debate is going to go on even after the last word in Book 7 is read.... two more years....groan. Cat Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 13:34:21 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: That Hazing Scene In-Reply-To: <005d01c59259$2108d9e0$482fdcd1@katmac.com> Message-ID: <20050727133421.75423.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135210 Gatta: > 1. How come Snape is running around in nothing but > his underwear under his robes? Marozi: This seems to vary according to circumstances/personal preferences, but Snape is apparently not a trouser fan. In PS/SS, for instance, Harry sees his bare legs when his robes are lifted. At least he does wear underpants, unlike the old boy in the nightgown at the World Cup. Gatta: > 2. Why does Lily tell Snape to wash his pants > (apart, of course, from the fact that they needed > it)? Wouldn't laundry arrangements at Hogwarts be a > trifle more...magical? Marozi: The elves can't wash your underwear if you NEVER CHANGE IT, Snivellus! <---Inner Sirius coming out. > 4. Finally, if Snape is such a hotshot at magic and > runs with a tough Slitherin gang (GoF, p. 531, hb > U.S. edition), how did he get into such a > relationship with the Marauders in the first place? Marozi: I've always suspected that what we see in SWM is a single instance in an ongoing two-way hex war between the Marauders and Snape's "gang," which I think is supported by HBP. I think if Snape invented Levicorpus, he pretty much had to have fired the first shot with that one. From the way Lupin talks about it, it certainly sounds like it got used against him a time or two. So James and Sirius using it against Snape might have been in the nature of a retaliatory strike. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 13:36:17 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:36:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: <83.2c62bd8c.301876ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <004601c592b0$2b76c2f0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135211 Julie says: Meanwhile, we get the impression he does share quite a bit of Order business with Snape, which only makes sense as Snape is DD's inside man in the DE (or as inside as he can be without the kind of full "betrayal" that would convince LV beyond of his loyalty beyond a doubt--such as killing DD). And I also think DD and Snape do share some plans relating to Harry, as with Occlumency and perhaps the HBP textbook. I agree that Snape isn't DD's confidante in the fullest sense, any more than McGonagall, or Mad-Eye Moody, or Harry. But DD has still trusted Snape with a *lot* of information, especially over the past several years. If DD's trust in Snape is misplaced, then DD has made a huge mistake, VERY huge, far more so than any other misjudgment we've seen from him, because it affects exactly those he has sworn to protect, the Hogwarts students, and Harry himself. They are all now in much greater danger from Voldemort and the DEs if Snape has truly joined them. This magnitude of misjudgment makes DD not only fallible, but I think his standing as a great wizard would be somewhat tarnished. Julie Sherry now: Do we really know that Dumbledore has confided so much to Snape? What do we actually know that he's confided about the order, or Harry, or horcruxes or anything. Just because Dumbledore trusts Snape's reasons for returning, trusts him individually, doesn't mean he trusts him with tons of information. Dumbledore even makes Harry promise not to tell anyone but Ron and Hermione about the horcruxes. Dumbledore seems to be the kind of general who works on the need to know basis. i grant you that by reading mostly the audio books, I probably miss some details, but is there actually canon to show that Dumbledore trusts Snape with a lot of information? After all, if Snape is indeed Dumbledore's spy, the less info he has about DD's plans and theories, the safer the good side is. You wouldn't want your spy to have a lot of information that could be tortured out of him, if he gets caught. sherry From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 27 13:46:57 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:46:57 -0000 Subject: the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135212 > Jim Ferer: > Potioncat: But we don't know what Snape's NEWT students had for a text book. Or if they used a text. This is Slughorn's choice of texts, and he's using the same one that he used for all those many years! "If" Umbridge was correct, and Snape's students were advanced, he must have been teaching all the levels differently than Slughorn did. Now, I don't know why Snape didn't write a text of his own...might have earned him an Order of Merlin. Could he have been too busy with classes in the winter and Order business in the summmer? > weildman: snip This absolutely genius improvement in a 50 year old textbook is allowed to gather dust instead of improving the knowledge of students. I believe Snape failed as a teacher when he failed to use his greater knowledge of the subject to improve the text for the course. I don't know what his reasons for withholding this knowledge was, but in doing so he failed his students and the wizarding world. The fact that he could > have shared this knowledge and didn't is really telling about his > character.> Potioncat: I don't think this greatly improved text book was gathering dust in the potions lab all these years. I think it had been stolen.(Another reason he didn't write his own book; the notes were gone.) If Snape knew it was in the potions lab, he would have taken it when he moved to DADA. And I'm not sure that he knew before the incident with Malfoy that Potter had the book. This text wasn't used by the pre-NEWT students. They had two other texts for the 5 years. But they didn't concoct potions from a text (like they do in Slughorn's class) they followed Snape's instructions on the board. So we might assume they were Snape's personal directions. The changes he made in the Advanced book had to do with preparation...using a particular tool or technique that differed just a little from the text. A subtle difference. Is is possible that Harry wasn't following the instructions so carefully from the board as he did from the H-B Prince? In Occulmency lessons Snape says something along the line of "You have no subtlety, Potter, that's why you're such a lamentable potion maker." > hekatesheadband: snip Granted, he may have wanted students to experiment for > themselves - but with the way he berates them for failure when they > do deviate from the book's directions, how can he expect that they > would ever dare it? There would be no need to spoon-feed it to > them: the occasional "Arsenius Jigger says to do X, but I find that > Y can also be useful" or "For homework, think of how you might > modify these instructions, and explain them." He's never done > anything like. Potioncat: I don't think experimentation was the issue. Snape had found at an early age that a subtle difference in technique would change the outcome. He knew when the students hadn't done things properly. Homework, as I recall, was research. They were using "1000 Fungii" and going to the library. It was all theory related. You have to understand why something works before you can come up ways to change it. I do think Snape's book had been lost or stolen. If the Marauders had it, that may be how they learned Snape's nvbl hexes. Except they had learned some by the end of 5th year. I doubt the book went missing that early. Just my thoughts. Potioncat From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 27 14:00:17 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:00:17 -0000 Subject: How did Dumbledore know about the cave? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wapp13" wrote: > > I guess that Dumbledore has been analysing everything he knows about > TR for quite some years to try and get hints or clues as to where he > might put the horcruxes and in what relics. It seemed very clear in > the book that the cave incident was significant as it was mentioned > more than once. I would assume that Dumbledore therefore made a > connection between that and a possible hiding place for a horcrux. I like this theory - it not only provides a reason for why Dumbledore went to the cave, it provides a reason for why the cave was mentioned in the first place. If this is true, isn't it possible that all the other Pensieve flashbacks contain a clue as to what or where the other Horcruxes are? We have 6 memories. The clues might be: 1. The locket? The snake? The Gaunt house as a hiding place? 2. The cave. 3. The ring. 4. ? 5. The cup. 6. The wine? Maybe that's why Dumbledore congratulated Harry when he asked about the mouth-organ. In a way, he realized that each memory had contained one important clue - he just happened to pick on the wrong one, but he was right to think that there was SOMETHING that he should focus on. I can't see anything in Slughorn's memory, though - no obvious object, unless it's the gold clock. (I don't suppose it would be a pineapple!) And I don't personally believe that the locket was a Horcrux, but it is rather prominently brought to our attention, so it might be the focal point of one of the memories. Wanda From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 27 14:27:39 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:27:39 -0000 Subject: A contradiction to consider In-Reply-To: <006101c5928f$ab13b020$a9c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135214 > CathyD Now: > Apart from this it would be force of habit, wouldn't it? Everybody knows you can't apparate out of Hogwarts, they were in a rather pressing situation and didn't have time to think..."Oh yeah, DD's dead, we can apparate right from here." Potioncat: Hi Cathy, I haven't seen your name in a long time, good to see your posts again! I think you make a good point, but I'll add one. "If" DD's death did disactivate the Anti-Apparition spells,even for only a brief time, Snape wouldn't want the DEs to know it. They wouldn't think of it, and he wouldn't want to reveal it. From littleleah at handbag.com Wed Jul 27 14:30:43 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:30:43 -0000 Subject: the potions textbook Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135215 potioncat wrote:(massively snipped) >I do think Snape's book had been lost or stolen. If the Marauders had >it, that may be how they learned Snape's nvbl hexes. Except they had >learned some by the end of 5th year. I doubt the book went missing >that early. If Slughorn taught Lily potions, he must also have taught Snape, yet IIRC, there's no mention of interaction between them. Snape must have been an outstanding pupil, but perhaps not Slugclub material. Could Slughorn have discovered the book and 'confiscated' it either with or without Snape's knowledge? This would explain why it turns up after Slughorn's return to Hogwarts. If so, why leave it lying around-was Harry meant to find it? And who knows about the HBP? Leah From weildman at cox.net Wed Jul 27 13:40:16 2005 From: weildman at cox.net (weildman) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:40:16 -0400 Subject: Learning and Teaching In-Reply-To: <42E73603.8000803@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <20050727134001.INMQ14195.lakermmtao02.cox.net@Heim> No: HPFGUIDX 135216 Irene: Why do you make the assumption that if Snape was teaching the Advanced Potions, he would not be using the improved instructions? In all the Potions lessons that we've seen in books 1-5, Snape does not tell them to follow the instructions from the book, he puts his own version on the blackboard. For all we know he was giving them HBP treatment all along. -- There is no way Snape could have been deviating from the books in his blackboard versions of Potions in the previous books. Hermione, who has memorized every book she has read, would have noted the deviation early on and would have raved about the uselessness of the book. Additionally, she would have recognized that the HBP potion book shows the same sort of deviation from the unmodified version as the blackboard version did. The HBP mystery would have been solved a lot earlier had Snape been using the modified instructions all along. My original thought involved the assignment of the textbook if Snape planned on introducing the HBP treatment to the 6th years. This would have wasted the students time/money in buying a worthless version of an outdated book that would not help them with his homework or classes (although they would be enough for the ministry administered NEWTs). But then I realized that the book hasn't changed in 50 years so Snape might not have routinely assigned the textbook to NEWT classes and that the book was assigned after Slughorn was appointed to the post as was his habit. This would explain the lack of an updated version of the textbook as well. I guess we might never know. I still think Snape failed the Wizarding World when he failed to update the potions textbook. Now that he is gone, he cannot pass that information to future students (most likely)- its like he never existed in this context. He wanted to make his mark (as a true slytherin) and failed himself by keeping his discoveries secret. -trevor From scb1066 at adelphia.net Wed Jul 27 13:42:37 2005 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:42:37 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, > which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the > Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't > have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of > age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says > anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting > pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? She's not only the Weasley's only girl, she's also their baby! Each of these is a powerful influence over parents (especially ones as sentimental as the Weasleys - at least Mrs. Weasley). Plus, as more of the Weasleys leave to be on their own, the more resources the parents have to do special things on occasion. Giving Ginny a new set of dress robes would be just the sort of thing real parents would do for their baby girl while the older brothers just deal with it. All of this is, of course, wild speculation. littlegreenpartyhats quite fun to wear From kneazle24 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 13:58:52 2005 From: kneazle24 at yahoo.com (kneazle24) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:58:52 -0000 Subject: Theory: The Prophecy, Horcrucxes, and "that" night at Godrics Hollow- long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "blairb82" wrote: At one point either before or after the prophecy was made LV went after Frank and Alice Longbottom to retrieve something of Ravenclaw's. Kneazle responds: This does not seem to me to fit Voldemort's pattern. He did not kill the Longbottoms and he did not set up anyone to take the blame. The Potter's DO fit the pattern. James was killed, and Sirius was apparently set up to take the fall--which he did anyway. blairb82 wrote: LV did not need Lily, had seen women as weak since his revalation of his own mother, and thus felt he did not need to kill her. Kneazle: I think if that was all there was to it, Voldemort would have slaughtered Lily outright. He had to have a reason to keep her alive. blairb82: The scar on Harry's forehead that resembles the crack in the destructed ring. Kneazle: That is an interesting observation! blairb82: LV takes blood from Harry-releasing the miniscule part of his soul that was in Harry, but not undoing the connection they aquired from LV's failed Horcrux. It is this fact that brings the "gleam" in Dumbuldore's eye because he now knows that Harry need not die to defeat LV. Kneazle now: I think it may be more likely that Voldemort recovered his missing soul fragment when he possessed Harry at the Ministry. He hadn't a twinge from his scar all year in HBP.... Finally--the biggest issue I see with Harry being a Horcrux is the fact that Voldemort has tried the avada kedavra curse on him twice in the books. He has said repeatedly that he wants to kill Harry. But this has got me thinking about the Killing Curse...hmmm Kneazle24 From geebsy at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 14:21:28 2005 From: geebsy at yahoo.com (geebsy) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:21:28 -0000 Subject: the Unbreakable Vow In-Reply-To: <20050727080501.72095.qmail@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135219 Dragonetti wrote: > > Remember the last term of the Unbreakable Vow, should > Draco seems to fail, will you complete the mission. > Well Draco certainly seemed to fail the mission, > therefore Snape had to kill Draco. The unbreakable vow seems to be pretty hazy as it is presented in HBP, almost a catch-22 Is there a time limit magically imposed on it by the very act of taking the vow itself? How does the "vow" know if you have completed your job? If you take the vow as Snape did and become bound by it, what are your working perameters ? How does the vow know if you have upheld your end of the bargain? If your vow was to "Kill" someone and you failed, do you get a second chance? What if you just wait until they are very old and they die of natural causes, or what if they fall off a broomstick and die accidently? Just asking :) Roxane From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 14:50:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:50:35 -0000 Subject: A contradiction to consider In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > CathyD Now: > > > Apart from this it would be force of habit, wouldn't it? Everybody > knows you can't apparate out of Hogwarts, they were in a rather > pressing situation and didn't have time to think..."Oh yeah, DD's dead, > we can apparate right from here." > > > Potioncat: > Hi Cathy, I haven't seen your name in a long time, good to see your > posts again! > > I think you make a good point, but I'll add one. "If" DD's death did > disactivate the Anti-Apparition spells,even for only a brief time, > Snape wouldn't want the DEs to know it. They wouldn't think of it, and > he wouldn't want to reveal it. Geoff: My feeling on this question of the caster's death ending spells is that I wonder whether this applies only to spells cast on a particular person, i.e. ones such as Petrificus Totalus, Imperio etc. whereas a "general" spell such as that maintaining protective wards remains in place. From exslytherin at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 14:56:27 2005 From: exslytherin at hotmail.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:56:27 -0000 Subject: the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135221 > Leah wrote: > ... If so, why leave it lying around-was > Harry meant to find it? And who knows about the HBP? > Now me: I think Snape just forgot about the book. He was the Potions Master for 15 years before Slughorn stepped back into his old job. I can imagine that Snape had his old school copy of Advanced Potions tucked on the potions classroom shelf along with all the other necessary but old, school text books and simply forgot it was there. Snape did have an awful lot on his mind. So when Snape vacated the potions classrooms & office for Slughorn, the book remained on the shelf for Slughorn to innocently hand over to Harry. Mandy From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 15:03:15 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727150316.61958.qmail@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135222 --- littlegreenpartyhats wrote: > She's not only the Weasley's only girl, she's also > their baby! Each > of these is a powerful influence over parents > (especially ones as > sentimental as the Weasleys - at least Mrs. > Weasley). Plus, as more > of the Weasleys leave to be on their own, the more > resources the > parents have to do special things on occasion. > Giving Ginny a new set > of dress robes would be just the sort of thing real > parents would do > for their baby girl while the older brothers just > deal with it. All > of this is, of course, wild speculation. I *seriously* doubt they got Ginny new dressrobes and Ron used ones. Ginny wasn't a fourth year yet, and the only reason she got to go to the ball is because someone older invited her. I don't think they'd buy her new robes and Ron used ones when he was definitely going to the ball and she was only possibly going. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed Jul 27 14:44:02 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:44:02 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135223 hickengruendler wrote: > > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or even deliberately misleading?... > "[Regulus Black] is dead, so he is pretty quiet these days." (The > question was, if we would hear about him. It's from the World Book Day > Chat in March 2004). Obviously this is the truth and she didn't lie to > us. But after what we learned in HBP, and considering that JKR as good > as confirmed that R.A.B. is Regulus, it certainly can be > called "deliberatly misleading", in a way, that we all assumed that > regulus did not have a role to play in the overall storyarc. Actually, I'm not at all sure that was deliberately misleading when taken in context. I think that came up against the background of discussions about whether Regulus was, in fact, Stubby Boardman. The question then was referring to whether we would be hearing about (or it actually FROM?) Regulus alive and kicking. Her answer about him being dead and pretty quiet was essentially a straight answer to the question she was being asked, which was about Regulus being alive. It's true that we all took that to mean that Regulus had no part to play in the story, but I'm not at all sure that, in context, that's what JKR intended. And I'm altogether sure that if the question had been "Will we learn any more about Regulus?" that she would have answered differently. Lupinlore From CariadMel at aol.com Wed Jul 27 14:45:40 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:45:40 EDT Subject: Did R.A.B. drink the Kool-Aid? Message-ID: <199.43d7a267.3018f814@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135224 In a message dated 27/07/05 13:42:37 GMT Daylight Time, rt11guru at yahoo.com writes: > Another point. I'm not yet in the school that thinks that Harry is a > horcrux. I'm still thinking, four founders, four objects. I also think > that Hermione is going to be the one who does the grunt work in the > library to figure out what the last two objects are. > > *******There's usually some sort of pattern in JKR's work. The houses all have their own colours, emblems, ghosts etc. There is def. a cause to reason that the Horcruxes have affinity to each Founder. Like you, I'm not convinced that Harry or his scar is a Horcrux. Neither do I subscribe to the thinking that Nagini is a Horcrux. I believe they are inanimate objects and I think there is more to learn about them. Harry will start off his adventures learning more about them and Book 7 will start with one of those 'Doh!' moments we so love about the series :-) (******* 'Kool-aid , LOL!) Annette. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 15:15:24 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:15:24 -0000 Subject: It's About Motive -Revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135225 This thread to an enjoyable turn that I had not intended, but I have enjoyed hearing others' speculations about the answers to my questions. However, the intent of my post was to see how many observations we have with no canon support of motive. This would be one tool to use to hypothesize about Book 7. One poster added a 5th observation, so I will add it to the list. > > I thought we could start a list of observations that we have made for > which there is no canon evidence as yet for motive. Anyone care to > join? -Julie > > 1. Why did Snape kill DD? > 2. Why did DD trust Snape? > 3. Why did LV kill James but said that Lily did not have to die? > 4. Why did DD say to Petunia, "Remember my last"? 5. Why did Dumbledore have the "triumphant gleam" in his eyes in GOF? -- "rolshan2000" 6. ? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 15:17:26 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:17:26 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135226 wrote: > -Cindy asked: > As for the idea that Severus and Lily were Potions partners, which > I've been encountering in a lot of posts lately, the only time we see > students from other houses working with the Gryffindors is in > Herbology, which they have with the Hufflepuffs. We never see > Slytherins and Gryffindors working together except in unusual > circumstances (e.g., Draco's injured arm and Ron ordered to cut up > Draco's roots). We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors as study > partners, mostly because of the enmity between the houses but partly > because of logistics: they have different common rooms and the only > place they could study together would be the library. I can't see > Severus, the Half-Blood *Prince,* braving the contempt of his > Slytherin classmates by studying with a "Mudblood." > zgirnius: Hi! I've been following this discussion and wanted to add my own 2 cents... First, I agree with you entirely about Snape's abilities. I am convinced he is a very powerful wizard, and especially gifted in the academic areas of Dark Arts/DADA and Potions. I don't doubt he developed the potions improvements and hexes in the book. But I am not willing to trule out Snape and Lily having been potions partners. You base your argument on two premises, the first being that Sluggie could be exaggerating Lily's abilities. Oh, he would, of course, to get on Harry's good side. However, we have the fact that he invited her into the Slug Club whan she was at Hogwarts. Since he's clearly trying to hook up with the future up and comers of the magic world, there had to be a reason for this decision on his part. Since she was a Muggle-born, the reason could not have to do with her family connections, which leaves exceptional magical ability. And as Potions instructor, that's what he'd tend to see the most in her, since she is not in his house. This does not give us any basis to compare the relative merits of Snape and Lily as potions-makers, but it is a reasonable basis to suppose that Lily was the other Potions star in that year. Your second argument is that they would not hook up as study partners because of the relative isolation of the two houses. However, it *does* seem that Slytherins and Gryffindors take Potions together, so that Snape and Lily would have seen each other in action on a regular basis. I also think we cannot assume students do not work together in class across house lines. To me it seems that having students work together is a decision of the individual instructor. Sprout tells them to, so they do. And we do actually see students working together in other classes-Care of Magical Creatures sometimes, DADA NEWT level classes with Snape, Divintation... In those classes we are not told all the groups, we just see Ron, Hermione, and Harry work together. Sometimes instructors even break up groups (like Snape having Draco and Harry practice duelling in CoS). Also, we've never seen Sluggie run lower-level classes. Maybe he does have students work together like Professor Sprout does. I do agree that lots of time meeting out of class might be difficult...we just don't know. We do know that Lily would not have cared about this, she's perfectly happy to stand up to James and Sirius (popular Gryffinfors) for picking on a Slytherin. And we do not know what Snape's position was in his Slytherin gang. His half-blood status might have made him someone on the fringes...but on the other hand, his reputation could already have been such that his classmates would cut him some slack (for fear of the possible consequences to themselves, if for no other reason.) We certainly see in Snape's interactions with his fellow DEs that *now* they all appear to have a healthy respect for his abilities. (And many of them are his former housemates...) You could be right, of course! But for those of us who are thinking the secret reason DD trusted Snape was that he knew Snape had loved Lily-well, it is a bit of a stretch to think he could have fallen for her so hard without some personal interaction. A schoolboy crush, sure. But *Love*? From muellem at bc.edu Wed Jul 27 15:25:15 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:25:15 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > hickengruendler wrote: > > > > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong > or even deliberately misleading?... > > > "[Regulus Black] is dead, so he is pretty quiet these days." (The > > question was, if we would hear about him. It's from the World Book > Day > > Chat in March 2004). Obviously this is the truth and she didn't > lie to > > us. But after what we learned in HBP, and considering that JKR as > good > > as confirmed that R.A.B. is Regulus, it certainly can be > > called "deliberatly misleading", in a way, that we all assumed > that > > regulus did not have a role to play in the overall storyarc. > > > Actually, I'm not at all sure that was deliberately misleading when > taken in context. I think that came up against the background of > discussions about whether Regulus was, in fact, Stubby Boardman. > The question then was referring to whether we would be hearing about > (or it actually FROM?) Regulus alive and kicking. Her answer about > him being dead and pretty quiet was essentially a straight answer to > the question she was being asked, which was about Regulus being > alive. > > It's true that we all took that to mean that Regulus had no part to > play in the story, but I'm not at all sure that, in context, that's > what JKR intended. And I'm altogether sure that if the question had > been "Will we learn any more about Regulus?" that she would have > answered differently. > > > Lupinlore lupinlore, I think we will be learning more about Regulus. I do not think he is a red herring and I have posted my theories about Regulus & perhaps Snape's involvment. My theory, which is just that, is based on why Snape turned against Voldemort - and Regulus plays a big part in that. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic - you can email me if you do not wish to use up your posts :) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 colebiancardi (first post of the day - and as allison stated, this theory still haunts me...) From azriona at juno.com Wed Jul 27 15:46:23 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:46:23 -0000 Subject: Did R.A.B. drink the Kool-Aid? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135228 Guru said: > Question: Are witches/wizards who grew up with and spend there summers > with Muggle families influenced by Muggle ideas? Hermione went to > school, one assumes, with Muggles before she enrolled at Hogwart's. > She also comes from a family of professionals. She must have been > exposed to computers along the way. I'm surprised that she hasn't > created herself Google-ish magic index of the library. I would imagine that the Muggleborn students are very much influenced by their summers in the Muggle world - remember that Dean Smith kept his football poster up for years after he'd learned about and became a fan of Quidditch! However, I don't believe that Hermione would have done a Google-type search engine for the Hogwarts library, at least if you take the Lexicon time frame into account, in which the Trio starts Hogwarts in 1991 and finishes in 1998. Those were the years I was in high school and college, incidentally. And I don't remember using the internet half as much as I do now - and I certainly didn't use it as a primary source for research material! Chances are very good that Hermione, for all her knowledge, isn't too well versed in computers. After all, following her departure from the Muggle school system, she probably did not have a chance to really learn about it, and as most adults are much slower about picking up new technology than their children, her parents (who would not let her use magic to fix her teeth) likely wouldn't have introduced it to her either. --azriona From exslytherin at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 15:51:50 2005 From: exslytherin at hotmail.com (Amanda) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:51:50 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135229 I was obsessing about this myself this morning but you analysis is superb. The 50 years is a vague generality as we don??t have a specific date for the Riddle murders yet. I assumed Tom was about 16 when he committed his first and horrific multiple-murder at the Riddle House. In between his 6th and final year at Hogwarts. After the creation of the diary, but before he became Head Boy and was seen wearing the Gaunt ring. I wonder, if Tom is wearing the Gaunt ring in Slughorn??s memory when he is beginning to learn about Horcruxes it means that he??s already committed his first murders but not yet created his first Horcrux. That begs the question; how soon after committing a heinous crime can one use the Horcrux magic to create a Horcrux? Obviously it is not something that has to be done immediately upon committing the evil crime. Time can pass between the murder and the depositing of the soul segment into a Horcrux. I support the 3 Riddle murders - three horcrux idea. The ring, the diary and a yet to be determined third. Your idea of the Award for services to the school is delicious. It is definitely something Tom would relish and be proud of. To win heroic award whilst deceiving the entire school, is something he would put in his ??collection?? of achievements. Just some thoughts, Mandy From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 15:59:54 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727155954.85883.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135230 phoenixgod2000 wrote: You have clearly never been between your girlfriend and your mother in fight. I have. A lesson I still have the scars from learning. Lynn: No, I stood between my husband and my family and there are people in my family we no longer associate with because they will not accept, in their words, a second-class person because they come from a second-class country (The Netherlands). On the other hand, I've had to explain to my husband why he shouldn't take the way others in my family do things as a personal insult. My husband stood between me and his family, but then, he had the stones to do it. If he didn't stand in the breach, he would have lost either me and his daughter as I would have returned to the US with her or he would have lost his family. In our favor was that both sides loved him/me enough to work out an acceptable relationship. We both have scars from it but we are together and neither one of us thinks the other is a coward for not standing up for our relationship. Then again, it's funny how a grandchild changes a lot attitudes on both sides. One side finally understands the family isn't that bad (particularly when they want 'Mom' or sibling to babysit) and the other side realizes that someone who can help produce such a gorgeous child can't be all bad. I get the feeling you relate to Fleur and Molly based on your experience so it's no wonder why you feel the way you do about Fleur and the other ladies. I, however, have different experiences which color my way of looking at the interactions. For me, Fleur is like my brother with whom we no longer have an association. He's just too toxic. So, I think we'll have to agree to disagree as we wouldn't be able to see the characters from the same perspective. Good luck with your girlfriend and mother. Sounds like you need it. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bamf505 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 16:04:39 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Age, integrity, and the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727160439.35381.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135231 > Jim Ferer: > NEWT students might have had a copy of _Advanced > Potions, Second Edition_, by Borage & Snape. If > Snape wasn't sharing his tricks of the trade then > that doesn't speak well of him as a teacher.> > > weildman: > HBP's potions book in this discussion... I think the > most telling aspect of the HBP potions book is the > revelation that it belonged to Snape. This > absolutely genius improvement in a 50 year old > textbook is allowed to gather dust instead of > improving the knowledge of students. I believe Snape > failed as a teacher when he failed to use his > greater knowledge of the subject to improve the text > for the course. I don't know what his reasons for > withholding this knowledge was, but in doing so he > failed his students and the wizarding world. The > fact that he could > have shared this knowledge and didn't is really > telling about his > character.> > > hekatesheadband: > I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm a denizen of > the geeky > academic world myself, so I just find myself wanting > to shout at > Snape: If you care so much about the "noble art and > subtle science > of potion-brewing," why don't you act to ennoble it > further! How can > someone who claims to care so much about potions > make the core of > his curriculum the following of instructions he > knows to be > inadequate? bamf here: I find it interesting that we know Snape wrote directions for the potions they were making on the board in previous years. It stuck me as odd that he would do that when students have textbooks. I was wondering, if maybe Snapey-boy WAS sharing his knowledge. Mayhaps he was writing 'improved' potions one the board, and no one thought to compare them to what was in the book. Thought? There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast. ***** Me t wyrd gewf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 27 15:31:10 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:31:10 -0000 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135232 Hey all, It's been discussed a bit recently, but nothing solid has been stated, so I'm posing this simple question: Why the heck did Voldemort's Avada Kedavra that rebounded off Harry destroy his body? We have no evidence of an AK ever destroying a body before -in fact, unless I'm mistaken, every other AK we've seen has left the body fully intact. All I have are speculations: - Was it really an AK he fired? - Was it a superpowered AK meant to ensure Harry was vaporized? - Was/Is there something particular to Voldemort's biological makeup that made his body go "boom"? - Was his body actually destroyed? Was it the resultant explosion instead? What caused the explosion, if so? Basically, I'd just love to hear some theories on the question that I'm wondering about most right now. I love theories :). Hokus From RoxyElliot at aol.com Wed Jul 27 16:07:46 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:07:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slughorn Message-ID: <15c.551ea8f6.30190b52@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135233 In a message dated 7/27/2005 9:30:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aandj at labyrinth.net.au writes: However it started me thinking - HOW did he disguise himself as a chair in 2 minutes? Could he be a metamorphmagus like Tonks? Polyjuice is obviously out. Illusion? Is any of this relevant at all to DD's death or 'death'? Transfiguration. BTW How perfect is it that he became a chair? When I reread the chapter, with an understanding of who this guy actually was, I cracked up. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From calamity469 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 16:13:03 2005 From: calamity469 at yahoo.com (calamity) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727161303.55123.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135234 Amanda wrote: I assumed Tom was about 16 when he committed his first and horrific multiple-murder at the Riddle House. In between his 6th and final year at Hogwarts. After the creation of the diary, but before he became Head Boy and was seen wearing the Gaunt ring. Cali's turn: I believe that Tom created the horcruxes AFTER he committed the three murders we witnessed in HBP: the diary and the ring. I'm not certain he created any more until after he left Hogwarts, but I cannot be certain. He needed the info from Slughorn, then over the summer committed the murders (between his 6th and 7th year). Amanda again: Your idea of the Award for services to the school is delicious. It is definitely something Tom would relish and be proud of. To win heroic award whilst deceiving the entire school, is something he would put in his collection of achievements. Cali: This is an interesting idea, but almost too obvious. I'm trying to remember all of the horcruxes now, but I don't have my book. We have: the locket, the ring, the diary, the Hufflepuff cup(?-was that what it was?), and Nagini. DD assumed the remaining two were something of Gryffindor and something of Ravenclaw. Am I correct in this? However, that would cleve his soul into 8 parts, if we count that which remained in him. Now I'm even more confused than when I started this post. Grrrr! Cali. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Sherry at PebTech.net Wed Jul 27 16:10:29 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:10:29 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135235 Samantha wrote: > Hi Potterphiles! > In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, > which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the > Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Amontillada (Sherry #2): As other members responding have already said, I think she'd borrowed dress robes from someone else who wasn't going to the ball, or maybe an older set of robes from someone who'd gotten new ones, such as Hermione. Samantha: > Is this a case of the only girl getting > pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? > It's important that she IS the only girl in the family. In OoP, Mme. Malkin is so shaken from her run-in with Draco and Narcissa Malfoy that "tried to sell Hermione wizard's dress robes instead of witch's" (p. 115 US edition). This indicates that there are differences between masculine and feminine dress robes. As the first girl in the family for several generations, Ginny can't wear hand-me-downs as Ron does. Amontillada From RoxyElliot at aol.com Wed Jul 27 16:16:59 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:16:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny ... Message-ID: <215.59edd8b.30190d7b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135236 In a message dated 7/27/2005 11:04:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rsteph1981 at yahoo.com writes: I *seriously* doubt they got Ginny new dressrobes and Ron used ones. Ginny wasn't a fourth year yet, and the only reason she got to go to the ball is because someone older invited her. I don't think they'd buy her new robes and Ron used ones when he was definitely going to the ball and she was only possibly going. Rebecca She could have also borrowed a set from another student. Really what Ginny wore isn't at all important to the story. The Yule Ball is really more about Ron and Harry's first dance, and the awkwardness surrounding it. That she got to go at all is probably more about the reader seeing her as something more than the victim in COS than about the main plot of GOF. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 27 16:20:15 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:20:15 -0000 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hokus7" wrote: > Hey all, > > It's been discussed a bit recently, but nothing solid has been > stated, so I'm posing this simple question: > > Why the heck did Voldemort's Avada Kedavra that rebounded off Harry > destroy his body? > Hokus OK this is cut from one a longer post (No. 134999), but certainly provides you with a theory ....Now, if Voldemort was wise enough to attempt this with the prophecy,perhaps he would have attempted the same thing on baby Harry i.e. make Harry a Horcrux (I fully admit that this theory has been suggested before). Therefore, the very person with the power to destroy the dark lord, would have to kill himself, before he could truly vanquish Voldemort. 'Voldemort put a piece of himself in me?' said Harry thunderstruck. 'It certainly seems so'. COS p245 (UK edition) So what happened when Voldemort attempted to make a Harry a Horcrux? Voldemort is the epitomy of evil. Harry was the epitomy of love (his mother's love & self sacrifice). I have a feeling that there would be a fierce opposition to the merging of such opposites i.e. the explosion. This is what `killed' Voldemort and destroyed Godric's Hollow. Finally, this explains why Voldemort so casually attempts to AK Harry whenever they meet. He has never attempted it before and therefore has no reason to believe it will not work. Brothergib From CariadMel at aol.com Wed Jul 27 16:24:40 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:24:40 EDT Subject: Rufus Scrimgeour Message-ID: <1c6.2d66a09b.30190f48@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135238 So, what part in Book 7 will this man play? He's only appeared three times in HBP but I feel he's going to be significant to Harry's quest for the Horcruxes and his ultimate battle with LV. He's an ex-auror, battle -scarred and strong-willed. He's a different sort of Minister to what we've been used to, no double speak politician like Fudge. Although he's got off on the wrong foot with Harry, he may be his most important ally in the time to come. Sorry if this is old ground, I haven't seen any theories about him yet. Thanx , Annette. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 27 16:30:41 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:30:41 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: <20050727161303.55123.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135239 > This is an interesting idea, but almost too obvious. I'm trying to remember all of the horcruxes now, but I don't have my book. We have: the locket, the ring, the diary, the Hufflepuff cup(?-was that what it was?), and Nagini. DD assumed the remaining two were something of Gryffindor and something of Ravenclaw. Am I correct in this? However, that would cleve his soul into 8 parts, if we count that which remained in him. > > Now I'm even more confused than when I started this post. Grrrr! > > > Cali. > I think the Horcuxes are; The diary The ring The cup The locket The part in Voldemort Nagini Gryffindorr/Ravenclaw item However, I wonder if Nagini is a red herring. Simply there to highlight the fact that it could be put in a living thing. JKR is simply giving us evidence that Voldemort could of put a Horcrux in Harry (how else do you explain his Slytherin/Voldemort like tendencies). That leaves one final Horcrux. HBP alluded to the fact that Hogwarts had a strong pull on Voldemort, and also that the final Horcrux could belong to Gryffindorr/Ravenclaw. Well, what if he hasn't made a final Horcrux yet (i.e. he hasn't got to the magical number 7!!). Since HBP, I have been convinced that Voldemort had intended to make the prophecy a Horcrux. What if the end of book 7 is Voldemort having taken over Hogwarts (now that Dumbledore has gone), intends to make Gryfindorr's sword a Horcrux. Harry & the OOTP enter using the Marauder's tunnels to try and stop him. No canon obviously, but there you go!! Brothergib From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Jul 27 16:56:25 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:56:25 -0000 Subject: The Potions Textbook Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135240 BG thinks: It would be interesting to compare Hermione's notes from past Snape's potions class to the corresponding year's textbook. Could it be that Snape enhanced the lessons from the book and that is why he wrote the instructions on the board instead of having the students use their books? If Hermione discovers this then she will encourage Harry to return to Hogwarts for the book. They may need it to survive finding and destroying the horcruxes. Snape is no longer around to prepare life saving potions for them as he did for DD. From racket at club-internet.fr Wed Jul 27 16:31:29 2005 From: racket at club-internet.fr (racket at club-internet.fr) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:31:29 +0200 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135241 "hokus7" wrote: >It's been discussed a bit recently, but nothing solid has been >stated, so I'm posing this simple question: >Why the heck did Voldemort's Avada Kedavra that rebounded off Harry >destroy his body? We have no evidence of an AK ever destroying a >body before -in fact, unless I'm mistaken, every other AK we've seen >has left the body fully intact. All I have are speculations: Julie: Yes we've never seen an AK destroying a body but neither have we seen an AK rebounded. So as the AK didn't work on Harry it may have gained some power in rebounding. >- Was it really an AK he fired? Julie: I think it really was an AK for two reasons: LV must have killed James and Lily with AK and Harry remembers a green flash >- Was it a superpowered AK meant to ensure Harry was vaporized? Julie: I don't think so. LV had no reasons to make a super AK, he didn't know about the ancient charms Lily put to protect Harry and he only knew the beginning of the prophecy >- Was/Is there something particular to Voldemort's biological makeup >that made his body go "boom"? >- Was his body actually destroyed? Was it the resultant explosion >instead? What caused the explosion, if so? Julie: As I said before I believe in the rebounding making the AK more powerful. About this body I wonder if it has something to do with his horcruxes. p.s. excuse my English From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 27 17:07:47 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:07:47 -0400 Subject: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? Message-ID: <005501c592cd$b68508d0$7562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135242 Julie: >I don't think Dudley is a wizard. Firstly, in OotP he can't see the dementors and even a squib like mrs Figg can. CathyD now: Mrs Figg could not see the Dementors. I think JKR made that clear - where - in the last interview or on her website? Found it... "Incidentally, Arabella Figg never saw the Dementors that attacked Harry and Dudley, but she had enough magical knowledge to identify correctly the sensations they created in the alleyway." I agree with you, though, that Dudley is not a wizard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lfreeman at mbc.edu Wed Jul 27 17:12:14 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:12:14 -0400 Subject: Harry, Ginny and physical affection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135243 Some have questioned the depth of the Harry/Ginny pairing because it seems "just physical;" however, I don't think we should underestimate the importance of that, given Harry's background. Harry had zero memories of any physical affection when he arrived at Hogwarts. Eventually, the wizarding world made up for all the deficiences of the Dursley house except physical love: he found friends in Ron and Hermione, a surrogate mother in Mrs. Weasley, father figures and big-brother style mentorship in DD, Siruis, Lupin and Mr. Weasley.But, with the exception of an occasional motherly embrace from Mrs. W. or an impulsive hug from Hermione, none of these people can be physically affectionate towards Harry. Apart from kissing Cho (which didn't work out too well) Harry's been physically embraced by practically no one except the Quidditch team after a victory. Naturally, in a book aimed at children, JKR does not show us details of their physical relationship, for the same reasons she usually only mentions swearing rather saying the words. (and I don't think for a second that Harry and Ginny are getting too far down the sexual path; we haven't seen any evidence of premarital sex amongst Hogwarts students.) But I think Harry is drawing great comfort from the physical aspect of the relationship; not surprising considering he's lacked physical affection all of his life. Notice that he and Ginny mostly keep it private, as opposed to Lavendar and Won-Won. Ron's "snogging" with Lavender was clearly to prove something to his friends, so it's not surprising the relationship fizzled out really quick. As for the emotional intimacy, Harry already loved Ginny as a friend/little sister. We didn't need to see an emotional bond develop between them all over again. They can add a physical attraction to that friendship and have a good teenage romance, just as we're expecting Ron and Hermione to. Contrast this again to Ron and Lavender. They had little more than a speaking aquaintance; add physical attratcion and you get... nothing. (By the way, I think there are also hints of Luna/Neville: notice how they were the only DA members to answer the call and how Luna helped Neville to his seat at the funeral. Neville had been released from the hospital wing several days prior... he didn't help getting around.) True, Harry does not yet have the long-term, share-everything bond with Ginny that he does with Ron and Hermione. But that is not all his doing; it's DD who has told him to share the full prophecy and the Horcrux story only with R & H. It's going to be interesting to see how that complicates things in book 7. Are the three of them really supposed to be able to complete that mission without help from the Order? Finally, for the argument that Snape can't be evil because then DD would be a complete fool. If Snape's good, then Voldemort is a complete fool, which is also a bit unbelievable. I think this is evidence that Snape is loyal only to himself, was genuinely playing both sides as best he could for the last couple of years and has only now, because of the Unbreakable vow, been forced to choose. From CariadMel at aol.com Wed Jul 27 17:10:32 2005 From: CariadMel at aol.com (CariadMel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:10:32 EDT Subject: Hogwarts protection spells Message-ID: <1d5.40cedb42.30191a08@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135244 Geoff wondered if the spells cast by DD to protect Hogwarts would be invalid after his death....he said, "My feeling on this question of the caster's death ending spells is that I wonder whether this applies only to spells cast on a particular person, i.e. ones such as Petrificus Totalus, Imperio etc. whereas a "general" spell such as that maintaining protective wards..." Annette: The spell that doesn't allow for Apparation in Hogwarts was probably cast the same time as the anti-Muggle spells, ie.long ago, much longer than DD's existence. It's purpose is to protect the students from the outside world and , to a certain degree, stop them 'mitching' (bunking off) during school time. Annette. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:12:42 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:12:42 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135245 > hg replies: > I'm of the mind that the award is indeed a horcrux. > Auria adds: Its also interesting that on JK Rowling's website, Tom Riddle's award is present on the 'Fansites' page, on the 'top shelf'. This may add weight to the argument that the award is significant for JK Rowling to include it as an item on the webpage. Just something that struck me really. From gailelisabeth at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:26:06 2005 From: gailelisabeth at yahoo.com (gailelisabeth) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:26:06 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135246 I have been searching the messages, and haven't found this theory put forward -- forgive me if I've missed it. Several posters have pointed out how odd it is that DD pleads with Snape at the end (the implication being that he's pleading for his life.) I agree that he may indeed be pleading for Snape to kill him - - that would be much more in character. But why? Here's my theory: Remember that DD insists Harry fetch Snape when he is ill from the potion, not Madame P. or anyone else. Could it be that there is a secret only he and Snape share? Keep in mind how strongly DD insists that Harry obey him without question on their outing to the cave, even if it should mean leaving DD in danger. What if he had extracted a similar promise from Snape? What if the potion DD drank had put the horocrux into him, DD? When he said "Kill me" in his stupor, it was because he knew this? And that Snape killed him because it was the only way to kill the horocrux? Gail From rt11guru at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:29:29 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:29:29 -0000 Subject: Memories... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135247 Julie: I think it really was an AK for two reasons: LV must have killed James and Lily with AK and Harry remembers a green flash. Yes, Harry remembers the green flash, so he has some memory of the night his parents were killed. Is it enough to be extracted, put in the pensieve and reviewed? JKR said in the Mugglenet interview that memories in the pensieve are accurate and don't reflect the biases of their "owner". This could be a way for him to know what actually happened that night, if he could stand the pain of seeing it. Guru From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:37:54 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:37:54 -0000 Subject: Aragog's venom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135248 There are a handful of non-human creatures that have played a role in the series so far, some of which have been more important that others. Buckbeak, for example, was quite important in POA, and Fawkes in COS. With some of these, I get the sense that they may matter again (Fawkes, for example), but others feel less likely ever to matter (Trevor and Pigwidgeon, for examples, though who knows for sure). But what about Aragog or, more to the point, the venom that was extracted from him by Slughorn? Aragog is certainly a rarity among the animals. For one thing, he can talk. For another, he dates back to the time when Riddle was a student. Can someone imagine a property of Aragog's venom that will somehow come into play in Book Seven? Ersatz Harry From doliesl at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:50:10 2005 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (d.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727175010.17365.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135249 BRAVO on all those put it so eloquently on why they found Harry and Ginny relationship (or just Ginny's characterizatioin alone) problematic, weak, unsatisfying and ultimately unconvincing. I was hoping I would be spared of those "well don't you see the clues are here (and shove out the list)" type of replies, because that's not the point. Like Hickengruenler and others have emphasized again and again, I DO expect to see Ginny setup as Harry's ultimate love interest all along. I had her name down in my HBP predict contest as Harry's one true love. I had no problem (nor really care) about ship one way or another. I'm all for it, let me see how you bring Harry and Ginny together! It is the actual *execution* that was just...awful awful AWFUL (details refer to my last post)! Especially after finding out the authorial intend in her interview, shessh JKR if THAT is what you meant to portray, boy that was just pure bad writing. Maybe problems are bound to arise when author tried too hard to make Ginny to be this totally, perfectly ideal 'love of Harry's life', too 'custom made to fit'...that premise already sounded shady to begin with. And she failed miserably in my book. > David: > I don't care really about the ships, as they're only a diversion to > the main plot-line of Harry vs. LV. I do agree with you that the H-G But is it really only a diversion? I'm not convinced of that "it's not really about ship" thing anymore. Aren't Harry's super duper *rare* and *extraordinary* power being L-O-V-E!? And the deepest, most important LOVE of his life is Ginny right? And readers are being sledgehammered to read repeated advertisement (= you only read from other characters' telling, never actually shown on pages) on how extraordinarily rare, special (being 7th child and all) and super power Ginny is. So I can totally see it, given how Mary-sue Ginny's been written all along, it'd only be consistent that Ginny will totally Bat Bogey Hex (x 100% LOVE POWER) Voldemort at the end, of course not without Voldemort commenting on what a flaming red headed hottie she is first. Wait, a perfectly ideal girl will never steal hero's limelight despite being a complete equal to him. She'd just blind Voldemort enough for Harry to strike the final blow - it takes two, the power of true love alas. Seriously, that's why I shuddered at the end of HBP and the whole premise on LOVE power, especially after that oh-so-noble-Harry breakup scene, gosh that was just trite and awful. Clearly the rare and special but unexpectedly powerful Ginny is being foreshadowed to be kidnapped by Voldemort to hurt Harry in final battle, only to realized he underestimated the power of deep true love, and get defeated by these two together, who symbolized the most powerful and greatest love of all. Even if I'm totally sold and convinced by the execution of Harry/Ginny in this book, that love conquers all scenario suggested by that breakup scene just sounded like a nightmare. That's why by the end of HBP, Harry completely fell flat from my 'hero' expectation, he's gone totally lame (not to mention that incredibly dumb "so much better for me, worst for him" thought about taking out Snape, shessh, weren't you just been throwing mosquitos bite hexes at him like few days ago? so much *BETTER* indeed.) D. From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 27 17:01:11 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:01:11 -0000 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135250 Brothergib: > OK this is cut from one a longer post (No. 134999), but certainly > provides you with a theory > > ....Now, if Voldemort was wise enough to attempt this with the > prophecy,perhaps he would have attempted the same thing on baby Harry > i.e. make Harry a Horcrux (I fully admit that this theory has been > suggested before). Therefore, the very person with the power to > destroy the dark lord, would have to kill himself, before he could > truly vanquish Voldemort. > > 'Voldemort put a piece of himself in me?' said Harry thunderstruck. > 'It certainly seems so'. COS p245 (UK edition) I remember reading this post, and I liked the idea of the prophecy horcrux - I'm of the opinion that Voldemort either hasn't made his 7th horcrux, or is unaware he hasn't made it (unintentional Harry! horcrux - post 133871), and that he still wants to use Harry as his final horcrux killing - no way would he use a random muggle (Bryce) to make one of HIS horcruxes, that's not Tommy Boy's style - his no good Daddy, yes, but not some nameless old muggle. He has 4 others still active, he can wait for now. What better way to shore up immortality than to use the prophecy as a horcrux and Harry as the required killing? That'd be sheer brilliance. Voldemort, however, knows about Lily's protection on Harry, and though I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated, I don't think it's a stretch for him to connect whatever spell it was that got rebounded to that protection. It's also important to note that Voldemort never tries to AK Harry until AFTER he shares the protection from Lily through Harry's blood - i.e., not until he's touched him and knows it's safe. As for the mix of love/evil causing the explosion - that could be, though if that were the case, wouldn't there have been an explosion when LV possessed Harry in the MoM? Or does there need to be the catalyst of a destructive spell like an AK? This is getting complicated, and I have a feeling the answer is simpler, somehow. All in all, good stuff to think on, regardless. More, more! Hokus From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:59:56 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727175956.16193.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135251 "P. Alexis Nguyen" wrote: At the moment, I can only recall Fleur "disparaging" Harry as a little boy at the moment when he announced that he was to compete in the Triwizard Tournament alongside three other 7th years. Since that's my only memory of her looking down on anyone younger, I really don't buy into the idea that she, as a rule, looks down on people younger than herself. After all, in GoF, Harry and everyone else fully admits that he is younger and knows less. Having to compete against Harry in the Triwizard Tournament must have been a little bit of a slap in the face to Fleur. When in HBP, I didn't see Fleur treating Ginny like Ginny was 3. In fact, I saw Ginny behaving a little like she was 3, what with the name calling and all. Lynn: Read the weighing of the wands and when Ron asks Fleur to the Ball. I believe there was another spot as well besides calling Harry a little boy but perhaps I'm just thinking of her going on some more about how inferior Hogwarts is compared to Beauxbatons. To refer to Harry as a little boy was wrong. Yes, he's younger; he's not a little boy. However, what apparently she forgot was that if the cup thought Harry was good enough to be a champion then he has got to be more than just a little boy. Unless I missed it, we never see Fleur and Ginny interacting. What we have is Ginny's perception of how she is being treated and you know, if that's how she's perceiving it then Fleur is doing something to cause the perception. I'm also tired of people pointing out Ginny's name for Fleur. Have all of you people, when you were a teenager, never made up a nasty name for someone? I've even known adults to do it. Never been teed off by someone treating you as a kid when you are a young adult? Never called anyone jerk, idiot, or worse? Ginny isn't acting like a 3 yo. 3 yos don't make up nasty nicknames, they go crying to Mommy. This is how Ginny is holding her own against a perceived attitude. "P. Alexis Nguyen" wrote: Per her actions and reactions in HBP, I thought she was a little bit blunt, but that's fairly normal considering her background. Everyone seems to be judging her by, I'm guessing, British/American standards of behaviour; frankly, my experience tells me that the French have similar but *different* standards. Fleur was tossed into a household of women who obviously didn't like nor make any attempt to be friends with her. At the very least, Hermione, who has travelled the world, should have recognized Fleur's behaviour pattern and been understanding. Please don't misunderstand. I don't think that you should simply tolerate another person's rude behaviour just because their culture is different, but I do think that, when you are conscious of the fact that there is a cultural difference, like Hermione, at the least, should have been, you should make note of that and attempt to bridge that divide before you start making fun of them behind their back. In short, when there is a cultural divide and you're the one who feels insulted, you're going to be held to the higher standard until you've attempted to convey to the other party that she is being hurtful. Lynn: First where do we get that Hermione has travelled the world. We know she's been to France. Besides, there's a big difference between visiting a place and living there. I loved Holland, until I moved there. To be fair, even Dutch people don't like to live where we had to live for my husband's work. All those friendly, helpful and welcoming Dutch people were replaced by unfriendly, unhelpful and go-back-where-you-came-from Dutch people. So, you can't expect Hermione to really understand cultural difference on more than a superficial level from vacationing. That said, Fleur has lived in England for over a year. If she really is intelligent, she would have realized by now that the conventions in England are different than in France and adjusted to them. It's what I had to do when I moved to the Netherlands. I was living in their country and therefore had to learn their protocols, not expect everyone else to make allowances for me. But then, I had enough respect for my husband to try to learn them so he wasn't constantly getting the brunt of conflicts. In addition, he had enough respect for me to explain how my behavior may be offensive to Dutch people or how their behavior wasn't meant to be offensive. As I continue to say, Bill fell down on the job with his family. I would probably feel differently if Fleur had just arrived but she's had plenty of time to adjust. Besides, we have a neighbor from France who has spent almost as much time in our home as we have. Her daughter and mine are good friends. She has never been as blunt as Fleur unless invited to be so. Even though I've told her to help herself many times, she won't without asking. Why? As she would tell you it's because she's in England and she learned quickly that such behavior can be considered insulting here in England. Canon please about being tossed into a household of women who "who obviously didn't like nor make any attempt to be friends with her." We come to the party part way through. We don't know what was tried before we got there. What we do know is that Fleur has managed to offend all the women. We do know that Molly tries, in her way, to let Fleur know that she doesn't appreciate Fleur speaking badly of Tonks. Fleur ignores her. "P. Alexis Nguyen" wrote: And really, it makes a huge difference if Fleur was thinking that Molly was trying to push Tonks and Bill together. It is equally rude to invite someone into your home then attempt to destroy her relationship with your son, or at least that's how I view that. (Frankly, if the situation was going to be this preposterous, I don't see why Molly didn't just tell Bill to stash his fiancee in a hotel in Diagon Alley.) Though I now no longer think that Molly was pushing Tonks & Bill together, I know I thought that was true for the first 3/4 of the book, so I can't imagine that it isn't possible for someone else to perceive the same. Lynn: I disagree. I will invite whomever I want into my home and if someone doesn't like it, they can get their butt out. They have no right to judge why I invite someone into my home the same way Molly had no right to judge Sirius when he invited Mundungus to stay for dinner. Fleur is so blunt, why didn't she just ask Molly if she was trying to force Tonks on Bill or trying to break up her and Bill? She has no problem expressing other opinions. May I also suggest that you thought it was true because a teenage character stated Molly's intentions, not because Molly did anything to give you that idea. Having Tonks over when everyone else was in bed spoke more to Tonks needing a woman to talk to in confidence rather than Molly wanting her and Bill to be an item. Molly inviting Tonks for dinner when Remus and Mad-Eye were going to be there hinted at the future relatinship while Christmas told us of the real relationship going on with Tonks. Nope, the thought that Molly was trying to push together Bill and Tonks comes from raging hormones and not a mature examination of the facts. If things were as awfull for Fleur as people keep saying, why did she stay? She's an adult, get her own place. Where was she living last year? She should have said thanks for the visit and it's time for me to go. "P. Alexis Nguyen" wrote: Fleur comes into the Weasley family acting like herself. She prefers things the French way to the British way, understandable since these two countries has a major history of conflicts. She conveys this to the Weasleys, who perceive this as a superiority complex on Fleur's part and decide to dislike her. Lynn: There's nothing wrong with Fleur preferring her culture to British culture. What's wrong is to then constantly denigrate the British culture. As I said above, what's wrong is not to adapt to the culture when you are in someone's home. Of course telling people their culture is worthless will cause them to think yourself superior. As I said in another post, we'll need to agree to disagree based on different experiences. I believe Fleur should be the one to adapt in this context. To not do so, to me, shows arrogance and disrespect. When I go to a Dutch birthday party, I will congratulate every single person in that room on that birthday regardless of how ridiculous I may think the tradition. I do it out of respect for my host/hostess. In exchange, when in my home, people adhere to American ways out of respect for me. They will get off their duff and get their own drinks and food and don't expect me to wait on them. By showing respect for their culture, they have shown respect for mine. But is was my place to understand first as I was in their house and in their country. The upshot, I've learned why everyone gets congratulated for someone's birthday and my in-laws have learned to love potato salad, pigs in a blanket and enjoying their own parties by letting the guests help themselves. JMNSHO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 18:13:35 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:13:35 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135252 Here is another rather far out idea. What if DD is immortal, like Fawkes? He is not really human, he is an immortal being. Look at the clues: Fawkes has only been DD's. DD patronus is a phoenix. And as he is nearing death, his arm appears what BURNED. Is it his Burning Time?? When Harry looks into the flames he sees a spiritual phoenix rising from the ashes. Maybe it was time for DD to move on and along with all of the other reasons why Snape had to AK DD, this was one of them. Symbolically this has many meanings. First one could see DD as a Christ figure. Also he might be a symbol from another religion as well, perhaps Buddhism. My thinking here is that he has all of those names, so maybe he reincarnates over and over just like Fawkes and each time gets another name added. (He started his "burning time" with his arm. And Snape helps him along at the end.) Then I also wonder if it is like with the Dalai Lama. Was Albus the last one and now Harry is the next (the chosen one)? Of course, the Chosen One refers to Jesus in the Christian religion, the Messiah in the Jewish. Tonks_op From hfhrestoresgf at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 27 16:48:20 2005 From: hfhrestoresgf at sbcglobal.net (Anna) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:48:20 -0000 Subject: Your take on locket? Was: Whose orders was Snape following? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135253 What is your take on the locket exactly? If Regulus died after putting the note in the locket and securing it back in the cave, wouldn't that mean the locket would not have been at Grimmauld place but save in the cave for years and years? Anna. From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 18:27:42 2005 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (Lynete) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:27:42 -0000 Subject: Snape and Lily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "comomegusta6" wrote: > MA: Oh, here's one [from our forums] that I've really got to ask you. > Has Snape ever been loved by anyone? > JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than > Voldemort, who never has. > > (From the interview posted in mugglenet.com, part 3) > Reading this fragment made me wonder this: what if (one of) the > person(s) who loved Snape was Lily? > > Silver Miz Storge, now, with more from the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview: ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily? JKR: No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl. MA: Snape? JKR: That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly. ES: What about Lupin? JKR: I can answer either one. ES: How about both? One at a time. JKR: I can't answer, can I, really? ES: Can you give us any clue, without misleading us [Emerson misspoke; he meant "without giving too much away"] --? JKR: Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch. I *do* think she's referring to Lily when she refers to someone having loved Snape. Going back to "Snape's Worst Memory" in OoTP, we've often discussed *why* that should be Snape's *worst*. My theory is that he had a crush on Lily. After all, they had some things in common, like they were both good at Potions, maybe Slughorn favored them both. I wonder whether Lily reciprocated in some way, whether she felt romantic affection or she may have just wanted to be friends. Snape perhaps had mixed feelings at beinbg attracted to her because she wasn't from a pureblood family. Or maybe all the 'mudblood' nonsense came later. Anyway, I wonder if, from what we saw in the Pensieve, the 'worst memory' episode either caused them to breakup, or the breakup had happened and this just put the cap on it. Lily put him behind her and eventually ended up with James, his worst enemy. Snape submerged his ire that his former girlfriend tried to save him from an embarassing situation in his prejudice at 'mudbloods' in general, and brainy 'mudblood' girls in particular (think Hermione). Miz Storge, doing a *lot* of wondering... From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Wed Jul 27 18:16:37 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:16:37 -0000 Subject: Harry and a career at the ministry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135255 I'm feeling very Luna Lovegood today... Harry should take up Rufus Scrimgeour on his "offer". The conditions could be that Stan Shunpike be released and vindicated, that Harry would only help out the MoM on a very part time basis and more importantly, that the MoM would allow Harry to study to be an Auror (might require a return to Hogwarts to finish his N.E.W.T.S after LV is disposed of). While he was there he could get access to the Dpt of Mysteries and possibly some vast repository of knowledge (they all have them, ministries do). He could also have a couple of Aurors to do what ever offensive work that might be needed against any DEs he might run into, as he's now proved conclusively that he's completely useless when it comes to attacking unfriendly wizards :o) I also think he should do it just to cheer people up a little, give them some reassurance that there is someone making a stand against LV. Oh well, I'm off in search of a Crumple-horned Snorkack... Mandy "It was like having friends" - Luna Lovegood From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 18:28:09 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:28:09 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore -- smoking gun? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135256 Betsy Hp: Again, for me it's a question of degree here. Because Dumbledore is *so* much more complicit in Snape's case. *Dumbledore* is the one who brought Snape in. *Dumbledore* is the one who chose to trust him so completely. If Snape really is ESE it means that Dumbledore examined that question and came up with the completely wrong answer. It would mean, in other words, that Dumbledore is a fool. And it would mean, IMO, that any "wisdom" he passed along to Harry would be suspect. Nora: This seems to me to be excluding some potential pathos and latitude here, which is that Dumbledore could have been partly right and partly wrong in trusting Snape. That is to say, there could have been reasons good enough for Dumbledore to trust Snape, but given Dumbledore's canonical personality flaws, he failed to pick up the lingering resentments and dangers within Snape's personality and character. Lupinlore: It is scarcely surprising that Dumbledore underestimated the depth of Snape's feelings, and it is quite plausible that all sorts of things might have been going on in Snape's pointy little head that nobody knewanything about. Janeway now: I wonder if we don't have canon evidence that Dumbledore did indeed fail to pick up on the "lingering resentments and dangers within Snape's personality" ? but not because DD was a fool, but instead because of Snape's skill at Occlumency. (I posted part of this thought elsewhere, but it seems much clearer to me after reading everyone's thoughts in this string.) At the end of OOP DD admits that he was wrong in thinking that Snape "could overcome his feelings about [Harry's] father," and he calls it an "old man's mistake". However, we saw in the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter that Snape deliberately removed his memory of James humiliating him before teaching Harry Occlumency. Isn't this the smoking gun evidence that Snape has been hiding his true feelings and motives from Dumbledore? Per Snape, Occlumency depends on being able to "shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie" (OOP, p531 US HC). To me the fact that he removes this particular memory means that it is one he especially needs to protect, because it "contradicts the lie" that he told to either DD or LV. Normally he is able to "shut down" this memory, but as we saw, during an Occlumency lesson one is more vulnerable to inadvertent revelations. He didn't want Harry to accidentally come across those memories in the course of Occlumency lessons and report them to DD (or somehow reveal them to LV), so he removed them completely. And what does that memory reveal? That Snape hated (and had pretty good reason to hate) James. Not just for saving his life, but for a sustained pattern of bullying and humiliating him. If Snape has been hiding this from Dumbledore all along, it's not so surprising that DD would be mistaken about Snape's motives. And since Harry had seen this memory, he had better insight on Snape's true feelings than DD did. Sorry if this was perfectly obvious to everyone else already! I was always too focused in on what Snape might have been hiding from LV to think that SWM was evidence that Snape was lying to DD. Janeway P.S. Annoyingly, I can't seem to get the lines to wrap properly, so I apologize for the uneven lines. I hate that! :P From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 18:37:28 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:37:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Your take on locket? Was: Whose orders was Snape following? Message-ID: <1dd.41ee0f49.30192e68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135257 anna writes: >What is your take on the locket exactly? If Regulus died after putting >the note in the locket and securing it back in the cave, wouldn't that >mean the locket would not have been at Grimmauld place but save in the >cave for years and years? A) Two different lockets, B) there's no reason to believe that Regulus didn't return to GP. IF R.A.B. is Regulus Black, it is reasonable to assume that Regulus already had the fake locket with him when he went to the cave. After ordering Kreacher to drink the potion, he switched lockets and went back to Grimmaud Place and put the locket in a trophy case. Shortly (perhaps days) later, he was killed. Now all we know for sure about the locket in 12GP was that the clean-up crew couldn't open it. We know that Kreacher was filching things from the rubbish bin (gargbage can to us yanks), and if he had paid such a heavy price to help Regulus obtain it, he certainly wasn't about to let it be casually discarded. We get a brief view of Kreacher's rathole of a bed, but all that is mentioned specifically is several framed pictures that we know were thrown away. Mundungus, although he was systematically filching from 12 GP, strikes me as a thief of opportunity. Something that's in plain sight and small enought o fit in a pocket tends to leave the house when Mundungus does. I doubt he would take the trouble of rummaging through Kreacher's bedroll to find something worth selling. BUT, if he did indeed lift the horcrux locket, he probably sold it to Borgin and Burkes, were it pops up again as the locket that Hermione inquires about (the quoted price was 1,500 Galleons). It might seem odd that Hermione didn't recognize it, but there's no absolute canon that she ever saw it. Sooo, the locket could be in Borgin and Burkes, already sold to another wizarding family, in Kreacher's rathole, at a still undiscovered location in 12 GP, or basically, just about anywhere, especially if R.A.B. is *not* Regulus Black. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 18:55:35 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:55:35 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: <20050727175010.17365.qmail@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135258 David wrote: > I don't care really about the ships, as they're only a diversion to > the main plot-line of Harry vs. LV. I do agree with you that the H-G D. replied: >> But is it really only a diversion? I'm not convinced of that "it's not really about ship" thing anymore. Aren't Harry's super duper *rare* and *extraordinary* power being L-O-V-E!? And the deepest, most important LOVE of his life is Ginny right? << HunterGreen: I wouldn't simplify it that much. Its not about *romantic* love, but just love in general. [HBP, chpt 23, pg 509; US ED] >>> "But I haven't got uncommon skill and power," said Harry before he could stop himself. "Yes you have," said Dumbledore firmly. "You have a power Voldemort has never had. You can--" "I know!" said Harry impatiently. "I can love!" ... "Yes, Harry, you can love," ... "Which given everything that has happened to you is a great and remarkable thing." <<< So, no, the story is not supposed to turn into Harry's great love affair with Ginny. Rather (IMO), it appears that Harry trumps Voldemort with his ability to care about other people. Just because he's not dating Hermione or Ron (or Sirius, for that matter) doesn't mean that he doesn't love them. Voldemort lacks the ability to care about anyone but himself. Indeed he finds love confusing (not understanding that Lily would die for her son, even if it wasn't necessary), and considers it a weakness, not a strength. I have no idea how this is going to come to play in the final book, or final showdown if you will, but it did already help Harry in OotP. I would hate it if love in the story, after already being built up to great importance, were reduced to only romantic love which is fleeting and often insincere. The greatest examples of love that we've seen so far (such as Lily dying for Harry) have been parental love. D. continued: >>Clearly the rare and special but unexpectedly powerful Ginny is being foreshadowed to be kidnapped by Voldemort to hurt Harry in final battle, only to realized he underestimated the power of deep true love, and get defeated by these two together, who symbolized the most powerful and greatest love of all.<< HunterGreen: I doubt that Ginny is going to be captured by Voldemort and used against Harry. Its possible, but its not any more likely than Hermione or Ron being used in that way. The main reason I'd doubt it is because the situation you mentioned has *already* happened. Ginny was already used to lure Harry to Voldemort (in CoS), why would the final book repeat it? If anything, the books are heading toward a Harry Vs. Voldemort *alone* sort of showdown (hence the death of Harry's father figure and his mentor in the last 2 books). I personally didn't care for the final "break-up" scene between the two of them either (far too 'Spider-Man' for my taste), but rather than foreshadowing it could have just been a way to get Ginny out of the picture so Harry could go it alone in book seven (since she'll be at hogwarts if it re-opens, I assume), and reunite with her later on. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Wed Jul 27 19:00:05 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:00:05 -0000 Subject: Payback on unbreakable vows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135259 Is it possible that what determines the outcome of an unbreakable vow isn't just circumstance, i.e. Suppose that, as happened, Malfoy had not completed the deed and Snape and not completed it for him at that particular moment in time, would that mean he had broken his vow? and would it automatically mean death? Maybe the Vow maker has to do something that means he totally cannot fulfill the vow. Like kill Draco, or help Dumbledore emigrate to Iceland. It may even be down to the person that the Vow was made to to invoke the punishment. Maybe via some wizarding court such as the Wizengamot. I guess we've all trusted Wise old Ron Weasley's take on the finer points of advanced magic. Where did I put that book on Wizarding Law??? Mandy From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 18:30:00 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's biggest fear/Person coming to magic late in life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727183000.56396.qmail@web30015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135260 Azriona wrote: Yeah, I totally agree that the person is Merope. I wonder *why* she couldn't do magic until she left the house. Was it because she wasn't very good at it to begin with, or perhaps her family was so overbearing that she was afraid to try? And if she never did magic, does that mean she didn't attend Hogwarts? (Although I don't imagine for a second the rest of the family did, either.) Lynda says: I thought from the context of the book, that she was doing magic in the memory, she was simply fumbling a bit, being so eschewed and downtrodden by her father and made to feel unsure of herself, (rather like a certain dorm mate of Harry's who is always being reminded that his parents were better than him) and then later on, after the imprisonment of her father and brother, found that she could not do magic in that house any longer. That is far different from coming into magic late in life. Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- DeColores __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyljd at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 19:03:20 2005 From: ladyljd at yahoo.com (ladyljd) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:03:20 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135261 Everyone has made excellent points about the areas left open to speculation in HBP. Two areas that interest me the most have to do with Dumbledore and Trelawney. The Cave: What exactly was Dumbledore going through during and after drinking that potion? Is he reliving his past? Seeing the future? Lost in a morbid fantasy? And afterward, just what was so fitting about the defense used (the potion)? Is he truly dieing or just severely weakened? The Tarot Card Predictions: Have we underestimated Sybil? She was right on in her predictions of the lightning struck tower. She was right about The Grim (even if the interpretation was wrong); she was right about Voldemort marking someone as his own. Is there more weight to be applied to her fortune telling than meets the eye? I have a feeling that correctly interpreting these two areas will put on the right track in predicting the outcome of book 7. Unfortunately, I have no new theories at the moment so I'm curious about what everyone else things. Anyone care to speculate with me? Ladyljd. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 19:25:29 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:25:29 -0000 Subject: How do you destroy a Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135262 This might be insanely out there, but it hit me in the middle of the night last night and I just have to see if anyone is thinking along these lines. So, what is a Horcrux? It is a peice of a mortal soul, stored in an object in order to prevent the soul's owner from ever dying/being killed. They are created using a powerful, if as yet unidentified spell, and only after the subject's soul has been divided, which can only occur after the subject has comitted the ultimate evil: murder. And what is the only being (that we know of) in the WW that deals almost exclusively in souls? Dementors, those rotted, happiness- draining, soul-sucking feinds that once guarded the Azkaban inmates and have now abandoned the Ministry for LV. Did anyone else catch Fudge's offhand comment in (IIRC) Chapter 1, the Other Minister, in which he stated that the reason it had been so misty lately was because the Dementors are breeding? How exactly do they breed (we all ask JKR in unison) and what happens to the soul that has been sucked? The only character that we know of that has been officially soul-sucked is Barty Crouch, Jr. and we haven't seen hide nor hair of him in two books. But, moving on, what if the power that a Dementor uses to suck a soul can be harnessed by another wizard and used to destroy a Horcrux? Could all that energy/power (probably, from what we know of the nature of a Dementor, negative) have been enough to burn DD's hand like that? I know this sounds a little far-fetched, but think about it. I mean, we have to assume that Harry is pretty well prepared for the upcoming destroy all Horcruxes mission (seeing as DD is dead and can no longer help him in the physical realm) and he has been able to successfully deal with Dementors since he was 13. It wouldn't be too far gone to assume that with his powerful Patronus he could maybe do some Dementor wrangling, figure out their basic nature and manipulate their powers into Horcrux guided missles or something. I do come up with one hitch in this idea: LV has called the Dementors to his side, but if they could destroy his Horcruxes why would he do that (unless he ascribes to that old adage, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"). And then again, it is possible that by providing them with entertainment that is right up their alley maybe he hopes to keep them distracted enough so they don't notice the bits of his soul lying around. Anyway, I must be cracked right? Has DD's death put me over the edge? Must go home, sleep and rest brain. Meri - who also realized last night that June is not a good month to be a FOH (Friend of Harry) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 19:27:09 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:27:09 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy - Getting Out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135263 I vaguely remember reading that Lucius was only charged with breaking and entering, and attempting to steal the Prophecy. The assault and attempted murder charges were never brought against him. Which brings me to my point; I vaguely remember reading that Lucius was sentenced to something like 18 months for his crimes. That means he will get out around January in the next book. My problem is I can't remember where, or even if, I read this. Does any one recall reading this; can you confirm it for me? Of course, this only applies to Lucius. Lucius had not previously been convicted of a crime and wasn't in Azkaban. Those who were previously convicted will have to stay. Thanks, Steve/bboyminn From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 19:29:11 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:29:11 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" wrote: > I was obsessing about this myself this morning but your analysis is > superb. The 50 years is a vague generality as we don??t have a > specific date for the Riddle murders yet. hg replies: Thanks, Mandy. I'm really hoping that "fifty years ago" as mentioned in the opening of GoF is actually "about fifty years ago," and I'm continuing to look for canon evidence of the 1945/after Tom graduated date, although (Lexicon) Steve himself admits this time period is tricky. In post 135166 he says: "The dates for the events of 50 years ago are rather, well, mushy. The Lexicon's timeline is annotated with as much canon evidence as I had when I did the work, last October. Basically, I used the literal interpretation of "fifty years ago" whenever it said that. Of course, there's nothing to indicate that it means EXACTLY fifty years ago." Mandy: > > I support the 3 Riddle murders - three horcrux idea. The ring, the diary > and a yet to be determined third. > > Your idea of the Award for services to the school is delicious. It is > definitely something Tom would relish and be proud of. To win heroic > award whilst deceiving the entire school, is something he would put in > his ??collection?? of achievements. hg: It would explain, at least in part, why Voldemort was so keen on getting into Hogwart's, if the award was a horcrux. Why he felt the need to collect it, however, I could only speculate. It seems that theft or deception has been involved in the making of Voldemort's horcruxes, contributing to my speculation about whether or not Harry would be one. It would make sense that Voldemort, upon hearing the prophecy, would not only wish to nullify it, but moreover UPEND it, by putting a bit of himself into the only "one" who'd ever be able to defeat him. "Stealing" the soul of the "one" with an AK and replacing it with his own? And leaving it right out in the open, like the award (if it is one) -- what a power trip. But now I'm digressing onto spongy turf again, onto thoughts I haven't entirely thought. Still on the fence about Horcrux!Harry. Cali's turn: I believe that Tom created the horcruxes AFTER he committed the three murders we witnessed in HBP: the diary and the ring. I'm not certain he created any more until after he left Hogwarts, but I cannot be certain. He needed the info from Slughorn, then over the summer committed the murders (between his 6th and 7th year). hg: I'll allow that he didn't of necessity make the ring, diary and #3 at the same time; however, he was wearing the ring when he spoke with Slughorn, and he got that after seeing Morfin, which was before he killed the Riddles. It seems to me that a multiple murder gave him the multiple horcrux idea, but that's just speculation, too. Auria adds: Its also interesting that on JK Rowling's website, Tom Riddle's award is present on the 'Fansites' page, on the 'top shelf'. This may add weight to the argument that the award is significant for JK Rowling to include it as an item on the webpage. hg: I wonder if all the horcruxes are "hidden in plain sight" on her website?! Anyone else see anything else? Thanks for the replies, food for thought. hg. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 19:35:50 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:35:50 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > Im sorry, but are we all reading the same books? > > First of all, some people seem to think the character of Ginny and > her relationship with Harry was forced or rushed. That she's > portrayed as this flawless, perfect person. Or they think her > character is implausible, because all of a sudden she's so this and > so that, and it all came out of nowhere. > > We spent five years not really getting to know Ginny, because it > wasn't time for us to. We were supposed to see her as her own > person, rather than just Ron's little sister, when Harry did. > > JKR decided HBP would be the time for Harry to fall in love (take > that phrase as literally as you want), and she chose Ginny to be the > girl. So I can see why JKR chose to develop Ginny's character the > way she did, and have Harry fall for her. > > Harry's had a very dark life. He needs someone with a sense of > humor, most likely similar to his. Who can make him laugh, and is > able to cheer him up with only a few words. Who's not always seeing > the down side of things. Someone who loves him enough to let him go > when the time comes. Even the most original stories have one or two > cliches. > > Did anyone really expect Harry to fall for a weak pushover who > blends into the wallpaper? Or for the sole Weasley sister to be > anything like that? Because when you grow up with five older > brothers (I'm not including Percy) with very distinct outgoing > personalities; Brothers who don't mind teasing you or boss you > around- you learn how to stand your ground and not let others walk > all over you. Their sarcastic sense of humor, and the fact they're > total Quidditch nuts rubs off on you. > > And, who's to say she wasn't admired by her school-mates prior to > HBP? The Weasley siblings are pretty well known at Hogwarts. And > when you're the only girl and you happen to be good-looking among > other things, you get attention. I also don't see why people are > saying the acknolodgement of her looks is far-fetched. After all, > Bill is more than once described as handsome, and last time I > checked more than one child is allowed to be attractive in a single > family. > > With all he has going on, the last thing he needs is a girlfriend > who's perception of right and wrong, black and white, is so strong, > that she makes it difficult for him to think for himself (Hermione). > Or a girl who's passive-agressive, as well as straightfoward > personality, doesn't really challenge him and at times makes him > uncomfortable (Luna). And Cho's superficiality and need for nothing > except to simply have a boyfriend brought absolutely nothing to the > relationship, which is why it ended so quickly. > > Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hermione and Luna. I like > them both. It's just that I understand why they would not be the > perfect mate for Harry in the long wrong. For me, Hermione belongs > with Ron. They balance each other out- He can be too lax about > things, and she helps him focus. When she's uptight, he relaxes her > a bit. But I digress... > > My point is we should give JKR a little credit. She's come this far, > so I'm sure she knows what she's doing. Ginny has been my choice > from the beginning. At the same time, that doesn't mean I would go > on a rampage if he ended up with someone else. I wouldn't all of a > sudden think the series was no longer worth my time. I wouldn't > think JKR is screwing things up, just because my fantasies were > screwed with. > > I mean, really... > > *Rizza* From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 19:50:50 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:50:50 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135266 LPD wrote: JKR certainly left subtle clues throughout the books but clues none the less. Now me: It seems to me like the basic problem with JKR's portrayal of Harry and Ginny's relationship is that she treats it like a MYSTERY, using "clues", rather than like a ROMANCE, exploring feelings. Romance is all about mystery and obsession and frustrated desire, and finally release and revelation. In a romance you're constantly asking, what does he feel for her? What does she feel for him? You experience those feelings along with the characters. There is zero romance in any of the relationships in the Harry Potter books (except between Lupin and Sirius, which we now know was a mirage) ;-) Janeway From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 27 19:53:33 2005 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:53:33 -0000 Subject: Marvolo's ring Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135267 I assumed that the ring Marvolo had belonged to Salazar Slytherin, but now I'm not so sure. The *locket* certainly did, but it says that the ring had the Peverell coat of arms engraved on it. Has anyone heard of the Peverell family before? Are they an extinct family, perhaps? Wanda From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:05:34 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727200534.22487.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135268 wickywackywoo2001 wrote: I assumed that the ring Marvolo had belonged to Salazar Slytherin, butnow I'm not so sure. The *locket* certainly did, but it says that thering had the Peverell coat of arms engraved on it. Has anyone heardof the Peverell family before? Are they an extinct family, perhaps? Juli: Where does it say about the Peverell family? Doesn't Marvolo say when he's visited by the MoM about Mofrin's use of magic against a muggle the it was Salazar Slytherin's ring? Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:10:54 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:10:54 -0000 Subject: Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: <20050727200534.22487.qmail@web53115.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > Juli: > Where does it say about the Peverell family? In the chapter "The House of Gaunt", when the elder Gaunt first shows it to Bob Ogden. Ersatz Harry From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 19:53:55 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to the Well / Will Harry Ever Learn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727195355.85263.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135270 Todd C. Truffin wrote: I'm not sure if this is a sign of JKR running out of ideas or if it's a sign that HP is really the headstrong blockhead he's made out to be. On the one hand, the fact that JKR has Ginny and Hermione react negatively to the book is a sign that JKR is making a knowing reference to COS. So, one might think that there's something meaningful to HP's obliviousness. Lynda: One might. Especially given that HP keeps acting consistently in this manner throughout the books. Even his twice dipping into the pensieve unbidden is a part of this characteristic. He doesn't check to see if the enchanted object in question has been enchanted with good or evil intent he just makes use of the object. So having said that, my guess is that rather than running out of ideas, she's just having her hero character act according to form. Lynda Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- DeColores --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:21:00 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:21:00 -0000 Subject: Back to School - Harry needs help. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rolshan2000" wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > > The new purpose of the New Order would be training Harry (and Ron > > and Hermione) and looking for clues to the remaining Horcruxes. > > Part of that training would include periodically venturing to > > Hogwarts in the evening for specialized training from all the > > remaining Professors. Part of it would be training and general > > instruction from members of the Order. The remainder of time would > > be spent looking for the Horcruxes. > Rolshan: > > But noone from the Order knows about the Horcruxes and it would be > too dangerous (and against Dumbledore's wishes) to tell them. ... > ...edited... > > Rolshan bboyminn: Let's not forget that Dumbledore knew a LOT more than he told, and he was able to get the Order to work for him. Plus, there are people in the Order, like Lupin or Fred and George, that Harry trust completely. Dumbledore's request that Harry not tell anybody, I think, referred to people in general;. it would be to their great disadvantage if the world at large knew about the Horcrux. Not only would false Horcruxes start turning up right and left, but Voldemort and the DE's would know that they needed additional protection. Further, wide spread knowledge might tempt people to invoke Horcrux protection of their own, which would greatly distract from the main 'get Voldemort' effort. Harry could dole out information to those he trusts on a need to know basis. Considering how little Harry knows about the wizard world, it seems impossible for him to accomplish the task without help. Further, teaching Harry a variety of defensive and offensive spell, protection charms, and other assorted charms would help him tremendously. Harry is currently very ill-equiped to fight with Voldemort. His dueling skills suck. His knowledge of non-verbal spells sucks. Even his knowledge of first aid sucks. Consider Draco's open wounds, consider Ron's damaged leg, consider all the times someone has been hurt and Harry didn't know what to do. He has SO MUCH to learn. That's one of the reason I hoped the D.A. would continue in this most recent book. One of the things Harry and everyone else needs to do is a little target practice. Hermione could enchant some plates to randomly move around the end of a room while the D.A. shot ink pellets from their wands at them. They could practice dueling. They could learn counter spells. Harry himself could have released Neville from the 'Twitchy Legs' curse, if had had been properly taught the general counter spells. Fighting is a dark and dangerous occupation, I would think magical first aid would be essential. Although, I do understand why Madam Pomphrey does it teach it to everyone; they would be more inclined to attempt to treat themselves than come to her, and I don't think she would want that, but Harry is a special case. He, and Ron and Hermione certainly need to know magical first aid. There is so much for Harry to learn; to some extent, it almost feels too late, but on the other hand, I just can't see Harry blundering through on NOTHING more than luck. He needs help and he needs it bad; so where is that help going to come from? Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From libin17 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:26:00 2005 From: libin17 at yahoo.com (libin17) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:26:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135272 I agree that the story of Harry/Ginny romance is not well developed in the series, and I think that the reason for that is because it's simply not the main plot of the books. Rowling hasn't spent a ton of time planning on how to make the HP series a great romantic story. The main plot of the series is a coming-of-age journey and a good vs. evil battle. Romance is supposed to be a side story that is "fun" and "light-hearted" (I think this is the reason why there's more-than- usual amount of romance in book 6--otherwise the book would simply be too dark). Therefore, Rowling may see no reason to go into details of the interaction between Harry and Ginny (e.g. their walk after the kiss). It's just not that important to the main story line. In fact, I honestly believe that Rowling was surprised by how HP shipping has become such a huge phonomenon on the Internet. Libin. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:26:40 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:26:40 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts protection spells In-Reply-To: <1d5.40cedb42.30191a08@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CariadMel at a... wrote: > > > Geoff wondered if the spells cast by DD to protect Hogwarts would be invalid > after his death....he said, > "My feeling on this question of the caster's death ending spells is > that I wonder whether this applies only to spells cast on a > particular person, i.e. ones such as Petrificus Totalus, Imperio etc. > whereas a "general" spell such as that maintaining protective wards..." > > Annette: > The spell that doesn't allow for Apparation in Hogwarts was probably cast the > same time as the anti-Muggle spells, ie.long ago, much longer than DD's > existence. It's purpose is to protect the students from the outside world and , to > a certain degree, stop them 'mitching' (bunking off) during school time. > > Annette. I had wondered the same thing about the protection at the Dursley's. (See post "Danger at the Dursleys!!!") Some thought that this was a different type of spell and it would last after his death, and they equated this with Lily's protection after death. I see one problem with this equation. I think that JKR implied in her recent Mugglenet/TLC interview that Harry was protected because Lily chose to die...no real charm that she cast. Also, if DD's charms are still in place, then that would imply that magic from other deceased wizards must also linger. One possible example I can see is the Sorting Hat, but we don't know all there is to know about this yet. I do not think the diary/other horcruxes apply in this discussion because LV never died. Other than the Sorting Hat, do we have any canon evidence to suggest that magic of a deceased wizard lingers? Julie From imontero at iname.com Wed Jul 27 20:05:53 2005 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:05:53 -0000 Subject: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135274 "Rizza: > > JKR decided HBP would be the time for Harry to fall in love (take > > that phrase as literally as you want), and she chose Ginny to be > the > > girl. So I can see why JKR chose to develop Ginny's character the > > way she did, and have Harry fall for her. snip Luna: Hi Rizza, I agree with every word in your message. I think that H/G didn't come out of the blue, it was heavely foreshadowed as well as Ginny's personality was foreshadowed in COS and in GOF. Honestly, Ginny in OOP didn't come as a surprise to me as H/G in HBP didn't either. The point is that we would've liked to see more of the romance evolving between them in HBP. I would've liked to see more interaction scenes between those two... Jo could've sacrificed some of those Ron/Lavender snogging scenes for a H/G nice conversation or, well, just a snogging scene, whatever... something more! How come we see Ron and Hermione's reaction to Harry kissing Ginny and we don't see Ginny's reaction! She's the one that got kissed! I general, I did like the book, I just feel that Jo failed to write H/G properly in HBP... From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:33:00 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:33:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catjaneway" wrote: > LPD wrote: > JKR certainly left subtle clues throughout the books but clues none > the less. > > Now me: > It seems to me like the basic problem with JKR's portrayal of Harry > and Ginny's relationship is that she treats it like a MYSTERY, > using "clues", rather than like a ROMANCE, exploring feelings. > Romance is all about mystery and obsession and frustrated desire, and > finally release and revelation. In a romance you're constantly > asking, what does he feel for her? What does she feel for him? You > experience those feelings along with the characters. There is zero > romance in any of the relationships in the Harry Potter books (except > between Lupin and Sirius, which we now know was a mirage) ;-) > > Janeway I think this is because of the genre in which she is writing the books. It is a mystery/fantasy genre, not a romance genre. I do expect very little in the way of romance in the HP series, and what little I do expect is more along the lines of teenage angst for character development. My two knuts... Julie From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Wed Jul 27 20:37:29 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:37:29 -0000 Subject: Costly sacrifice there, Albus (Was Re: Another possible reason) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135276 gailelisabeth wrote: > What if the potion DD drank had put the horocrux into him, DD? When > he said "Kill me" in his stupor, it was because he knew this? And > that Snape killed him because it was the only way to kill the > horocrux? The problem with these theories (not just yours, either) about Albus' self-sacrifice is that it's not very foresighted, is it? I mean, Dumbledore got two Horlicks at the cost of his own life? The greatest wizard living? What does that bode for the trio's quest in the next year? And, was it entirely wise of Albus to sacrifice himself so? Will 2, 3 or 4 more people of "noticable" magical power need to sacrifice themselves? What kind of game plan is that? I sure wouldn't be too excited about being one of his sidekicks on any of those coming expeditions, if this is the way its going to be. Albus made a dreadful mistake, then, about the ring, and the lake? It wasn't supposed to cost him his life. Or he was careless, the old fool? Or he knew this was the way it had to be, and come what may for the HRH: "Sure hope they can figure out those other four Horlicks! Done my part." Of course, there will be things left or set up by Albus to help them on their way, though I wonder if the painting of Albus will talk before the last chapters of book 7 - kind of a time-lag thing, like seeing thestrals only when the witnessed death is "processed", where headmasters in portait don't wake much the first year, just briefly open their eyes a bit, perhaps grimacing, before nodding off again. Later, however, Albus does wake and says: "Ah, Harry. Let me say, from the bottom of my painted heart, oops." dan (PS check out the Horlicks homepage at http://www.horlicks.co.uk/ - a do not disturb sign. Looks like JKR's door on her site. Hee. And no, don't respond to this parenthesis here, please.) From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:04:51 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727200451.45179.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135277 ahsonazmat: I agree, in part because in one of her interviews, JKR says almost explicitly that with Dudley, what you see is what you get. She then asked why anyone would want there to be more with Dudley in the first place. But she did make it clear that Dudley was Dudley, no more, and certainly no less. Lynda: Other than that Rowling actually makes quite a point of Harry saying he will return to the Dursleys until his birthday, I agree. The Dursleys now know that Harry has money, that he has an inheritance from his godfather. It could lead somewhere or not. Author's choice. I am also far from convinced that we have seen the last of Hogwarts. If Harry really wants to be an auror or if he ends up working for the MOM in any capacity, he'll need that additional schooling. Of course he'll continue to hunt down horcruxes and he'll battle on to the final confrontation with...Lord Thingy, but I doubt that school is truly over for Harry, Ron, or Hermione. Especially Hermione. Lynda Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- DeColores --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 20:49:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:49:01 -0000 Subject: How did Dumbledore know about the cave? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > I was surprised when Dumbledore suddenly announced to Harry > that they had to go to the cave, because I couldn't see where he > found out all the info about it. ...edited.. > > Sandra bboyminn: I suspect your problem is that you are either looking too deep or not deeply enough. The woman who ran the orphanage where Tom stayed told Dumbledore about the trip to the seaside and the incident at the cave. So, Dumbledore knows the location of the seaside town, he knows there is a cave there, now all he has to do is find the cave. How? I'm assuming he went there and searched for it. Certainly, the local people would know about the cave, and even if their knowledge was very vague, it would still be enough to point Dumbledore in the right direction. After that, it would simply be a matter of physically looking for the cave entrance. Note that there was a barrier between the inner and outer cave. Muggles might be aware of the outer cave but unaware of the inner cave. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:44:41 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley: Muggle or Wizard? In-Reply-To: <887587d405072506455500053a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050727174441.49784.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135279 > Boolean: > Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the exact quote to hand (if > someone could oblige...!?) but he is admonishing the Dursleys for not > treating Harry as though he were their own. He then says something > along the lines of, mind you, look how badly you've treated Dudley. On > reading it for the first time I just assumed he was referring to his > being spoilt rotten, but then I noticed that Petunia was reacting > strangely and this led me to wonder if, in their all-consuming fear of > all things magical, Dudley hadn't shown signs of wizardry in his early > years which were covered up. Is it even feasible that they got a letter > inviting Dudley to Hogwarts? This is a possibility, although I took the above referenced passage as simply being a parent (who probably knows that their child is somewhat spoiled) reacting to the verbalized possibility that they have been in some way not doing the best for their child. It may very well be one of the Dursleys who comes to magic late in life or Dudley's friend Piers Polkiss also springs to mind. Lynda Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! SPONSORED LINKS Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- DeColores --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pkdawson at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 20:53:34 2005 From: pkdawson at gmail.com (Patrick Dawson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:53:34 -0000 Subject: Rufus Scrimgeour In-Reply-To: <1c6.2d66a09b.30190f48@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CariadMel at a... wrote: > > > So, what part in Book 7 will this man play? He's only appeared three times in > HBP but I feel he's going to be significant to Harry's quest for the > Horcruxes and his ultimate battle with LV. > He's an ex-auror, battle -scarred and strong-willed. He's a different sort of > Minister to what we've been used to, no double speak politician like Fudge. > Although he's got off on the wrong foot with Harry, he may be his most > important ally in the time to come. Do you really think so? I thought that JKR very clearly portrayed the Ministry as just as corrupt and useless as before. Between Scrimgeour's overtures to Harry (even at Dumbledore's funeral!), the false arrests, and the continued presence of Dolores Umbridge, I'd say it's unlikely that the Ministry will play any important role in defeating Voldemort. Even the Aurors are portrayed as sort of inept. No, I'd say Harry isn't going to find any allies at the Ministry. He'll have to rely on the Order members and others he can trust. ~ PKD From ryokas at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 21:13:53 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:13:53 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Here is another rather far out idea. What if DD is immortal, like > Fawkes? He is not really human, he is an immortal being. > Look at the clues: Fawkes has only been DD's. DD patronus is a > phoenix. And as he is nearing death, his arm appears what > BURNED. Is it his Burning Time?? When Harry looks into the flames > he sees a spiritual phoenix rising from the ashes. Quite an interesting proposition, but it seems out of character. DD, after all, has all along been a proponent of mortality. His comments on the acceptability of death and - on occasion - even its benevolence . Making him deathless would certainly be a nice twist, but at the same time it would drastically diminish everything he's ever said on the subject. If death only happens to other people, you're suddenly far less qualified to comment on it. In contrast, LV is the one who seeks to break the limitations on his life and remake them in his own image. An important part of DD's character was that this was bound to happen. > Symbolically this has many meanings. First one could see DD as a > Christ figure. Also he might be a symbol from another religion > as well, perhaps Buddhism. My thinking here is that he has all of > those names, so maybe he reincarnates over and over just like Fawkes > and each time gets another name added. (He started his "burning time" > with his arm. And Snape helps him along at the end.) Then I also > wonder if it is like with the Dalai Lama. Was Albus the last one and > now Harry is the next (the chosen one)? Of course, the Chosen One > refers to Jesus in the Christian religion, the Messiah in the Jewish. Gives me an extremely bad story idea... were all the major religions founded at different times? -Kizor From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 18:00:15 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which SHIPS will sail? WAS: Re: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727180016.15930.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135282 Tamuril: > Am I the only one who wasnt suprised at all about the Ron and > Hermione relationship? This has been so obivous since book 4 and even > in the movies since the 2nd one -- CoS -- when Hermione hugs Harry at > the end of the movie and her and Ron awkardly shake hands. No, you're not. I'm not a shipper by any stretch of the imagination, but I have suspected this pairing since they met on the train the very first time. You are definately not. This relationship has been strongly foreshadowed since the beginning of the series, as has the Harry/Ginny relationship--although Harry needs a dose of being talked to the way Tonks talked to Lupin. I'll add right here as well that I've been telling my friends that Neville and Luna are just about the right speed for each other since Luna's appearance in OOP. Of course, some of these relationships may be shaken up a bit in the next book, but there you go. Lynda From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 21:18:53 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:18:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I still dont like Fleur In-Reply-To: <20050727175956.16193.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050727175956.16193.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135283 > Lynn: > > As I said in another post, we'll need to agree to disagree based on different experiences. I believe Fleur should be the one to adapt in this context. To not do so, to me, shows arrogance and disrespect. I concur (on the agreeing to disagree). The problem of liking/disliking Fleur is a matter of perspective. From what I gathered from reading all the emails, it isn't a matter of facts; no one argues about specific actions of Fleur's; instead, people are arguing whether the actions are good or bad based on how they perceive it. I was a relatively well-behaved child who grew up into a relatively stodgy adult. I guess, coming from that perspective, I am more willing to forgive the reactions of others when their culture is not the same as my own. Oh well. It was (and still is) a good discussion, though. It never even occurred to me that people might genuinely dislike Fleur, and it was good hearing all the reasons that people stated. :) ~Ali From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed Jul 27 21:20:17 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:20:17 -0000 Subject: Lily's Planned Sacrifice? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135284 BG writes: JKR keeps us hanging when it comes to Lily making a conscience choice to die at the hand of LV. JKR says that Lily did something more than stand in the way to protect her child. James had done the same thing to protect his wife and child - this did not protect either from LV. Lily did something more but what? I still hang onto an UV between Snape and LV regarding Lily's life - this in payment for telling him about the prophecy. LV never wants to be "in debt" to anyone and when he rewards one of his DEs for a service then he owes him nothing more. This fits LV's character as it is not out of goodwill but selfishness that he rewards his followers. Snape (at this point anyway) was unaware of the horcruxes. Snape told Lily about the UV. That night at GH after James' death, she consciously provoked LV to kill her - thinking that he might just do it out of uncontrolled anger and not think about the UV. She would of course believe that by breaking the UV - LV would die and therefore Harry would be safe. AND she knew that DD had contacted Petunia and "pursuaded her" to take Harry if he was orphaned. This would be the thought out plan that led to her choice - a choice made well ahead of LV's appearance at GH. LV knowing that breaking the UV could not kill him - he killed Lily and turned on Harry. At this point he was unaware that Harry was protected by his mother's planned sacrifice and AK'd Harry. The UV and the rebounded AK together created the explosion that destroyed LV's body and the house. Harry has this memory and he will learn to use the pensieve and view this memory as a man. It will difficult but this is how we will find out all that happened that night. Just IMHO. From tiamik72 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 21:24:33 2005 From: tiamik72 at aol.com (Katie) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:24:33 -0000 Subject: cryptic remarks by DD at tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > > Now -- what's all this "after a fashion" and "yes and no" stuff? I > don't think DDore's "lost it" > > from potion drinking (he is weak, but no evidence that he's addled, > right up to the point > > he gets AK'd). What does he mean that he came back "after a > fashion???" He seems to be > > there, all right. I think he's definitely dead, none of this coming > back from the dead stuff > > for me -- but that "after a fashion," what the heck is that about? > And ahat does he mean > > by saying "yes and no" when Draco asserts that the plan (display > the Dark mark, get > > Dumbledore to hurry up to see who'd been killed) worked? If the > scene is read at face > > value it DEFINITELY worked ... yet Dumbledore's saying that, in > some respects, it didn't. > > > Julie H, chicago > > Chris said: You got me thinking now. He had a drink and came back, "after a > fashion." And he responds to Malfoy's plan working, with "yes and > no."(US, 590). So everything Malfoy said is true, DD did have a drink > and he returned, plus as Malfoy said, the plan worked. The only way > DD could answer these questions cryptically is if he NEVER came back. > I pose to this to all on this list: Through your reading of the last > few chapters, was there ever a time when DD was out of sight of > Harry? Took a drink, plan worked somewhat...I smell a polyjuice > potion fraud of Dumbledore!!! Is the Dumbledore that Snape AK'd > really Dumbledore? Thoughts? > > Chris Now Me: (Katie) Heres the quote, page 590, US hardback edition ----"Now, about tonight," Dumbledore went on, "I am a little puzzled how it happened....You knew that I had left the school? But of course," he answered his own question, "Rosmerta saw me leaving, she tipped you off using your ingenious coins, I'm sure." "That's right," said Malfoy. "But she said you were just going for a drink, you'd be back...." "Well, I certainly did have a drink....and I came back...after a fashion," mumbled Dumbledore. "So you decided to spring a trap for me?" "We decided to put the Dark Mark over the tower and get you to hurry up here, to see who'd been killed," said Malfoy. "And it worked!" "Well....yes and no...." said Dumbledore.------ The way I read the "after a fashion" part is this. Rosmerta saw Dumbledore head into Hogsmeade that night and assumed nothing notable was happening so DD must be off for a drink. He did not stop by her Three Broomsticks, so she must have assumed that he was headed over to the Hog's Head, the other bar in town. She then alerted Draco by thier charmed coins, telling him all of this. I assumed that Draco decided to alert the Death Eaters to enter Hogwarts through the other cabinet in Borgin and Bourkes. Once they were in, he set the Dark Mark up in the sky over the astronomy tower, hoping that it would be seen from the Hog's Head and that DD would have rushed back to the castle straight away. If you think about it, Harry and Dumbledore must have been gone for a very long time, what with climbing down into the cave and getting to the center island and drinking the potion and finally getting back past the inferi and back to Hogwarts. If Draco was waiting up on the astronomy tower for such a time period, I'm sure he probably headed back down the tower to find the other Death Eaters fighting the Order. He later goes back up to find that Dumbledore has returned. Ok to the "after a fashion" part. Well DD definatley had a drink, but it wasnt the friendly kind that Rosmerta and Draco were suspecting. Its a figure of speech. The "kind" or "fashion' of drink that Draco had been imagining, such as a friendly round of beer at a pub, was actually a horrible potion, that we cant even say for certain wasn't fatal. DD wasn't about to tell Draco why he was really so late in returning from a "friendly round of drinks". It had nothing to do with DD state of mind, or his state of existance after drinking that horrible potion. It was more like a figure of speech to mislead Draco. And the "yes and no" part, well I took it that no matter if a Dark Mark was on top of the tower or not, DD would have raced back to the castle anyway, especially if the potion was fatal. There just so happened to be a Dark Mark above the astronomy tower that caused DD to race to the top of the tower instead of to the front door. In actuality he raced back to the castle to find Snape for an antidote or what not, and he wasn't going to give Draco all of the credit of leading him there, thats why he answered with "yes and no". IMO, I do not think you need to read much more into it than that. Katie From calamity469 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 17:48:48 2005 From: calamity469 at yahoo.com (calamity) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727174848.86764.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135286 Esmith222002 wrote: I think the Horcuxes are: The diary The ring The cup The locket The part in Voldemort Nagini Gryffindorr/Ravenclaw item However, I wonder if Nagini is a red herring. Simply there to highlight the fact that it could be put in a living thing. JKR is simply giving us evidence that Voldemort could of put a Horcrux in Harry (how else do you explain his Slytherin/Voldemort like tendencies). Cali writes: Hmmmm . . . now you have me wondering . . . Nagini COULD be a red herring. But, DD seemed fairly sure when he spoke of it to Harry. So, could there be a JOINT Gryffindor/Ravenclaw item? Meaning - do you think that MAYBE Godric and Rowena hooked up at some point in time? This is way out of left field, but it would continue the trend of having Voldemort using something from each house for a horcrux. A child, maybe? Some decendent of BOTH houses? From oiboyz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 21:26:44 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (Florence) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:26:44 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135287 Cool idea that drinking the potion put the Horcrux into Dumbledore! That would give his death more use. But I agree with dan that deliberately drinking it just to get rid of one horcrux seems too high a price to pay. I like Bob Alberti's theory in 134953 that DD's death put a protective charm on those he deliberately died to save. That, or moving Snape far into LV's good graces (or both), could be worth more than DD's life and give the Order a better chance of defeating LV. -oiboyz From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 21:28:18 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:28:18 -0000 Subject: Pervil / Gaunt linl was Re: Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: > I assumed that the ring Marvolo had belonged to Salazar Slytherin, > but now I'm not so sure. The *locket* certainly did, but it says > that the ring had the Peverell coat of arms engraved on it. Has > anyone heard of the Peverell family before? Are they an extinct > family, perhaps? Well there was the Peveril family. There is a castle very near to where I live called Peveril Castle which was given to William Peveril by William I (the Conqueror). There is a train of thought that William Peveril was an illegitimate son of William I's. I just had a look in Google on it and the following paragraph made my heart thump: "The castle saw a succession of Royal Kings and Queens, but in the late 14th century, it was granted to John of Gaunt, in exchange for the earldom of Richmond, and Peveril then became part of the Duchy of Lancaster. However, on John's death, his son (who became King Henry IV) inherited the castle and it became part of the Crown estate. " John of Gaunt, as you probably know, was the son of Edward III and the father of Henry IV. He was also the great-grandfather of Edward IV and Richard III through his (in)famous relationship with Catherine Swynford. Presumably this is why JKR has chosen those particular surnames relating to each other, but it's very interesting! Link to Peveril Castle if anyone's interested: http://www.theheritagetrail.co.uk/castles/peveril%20castle.htm Karen From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 21:28:05 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:28:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore -- portrait Message-ID: <213.598a2fc.30195665@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135289 : Christine wrote: > Just thinking - Dumbledore has been both suspended (CoS) and > sacked (OotP). While I can't argue that DD was a *former* headmaster > in Cos, he definately, for all intents and purposes, was *former* in > OotP - however, his portrait did not appear (as far as we know) Melissa: DD wasn't sacked in OOTP, he left. Remember the HM's office sealed itself against Umbridge. . she wasn't the 'rightful' HM. Based on statements in 3 different books I've come to the conclusion that only the Hogwarts Board of Governors has the power to appoint a HM, not the MOM. 1. In HBP McG states that it will be up to the Board of Governors to decide if the school remains open. 2 In COS it was the Board of Governors (with Lucuis' influence) who suspend DD as headmaster . . . not terminate. 3.In OOTP DD tells Fudge at Harry's hearing that the MOM has no power to expell a Hogwarts student. And since the Bd. of Governors didn't act against him in OOTP, DD remained the rightful HM and no protrait was needed. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 21:38:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:38:58 -0000 Subject: Lily's Planned Sacrifice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135290 > BG writes: > JKR keeps us hanging when it comes to Lily making a conscience > choice to die at the hand of LV. JKR says that Lily did something > more than stand in the way to protect her child. James had done the > same thing to protect his wife and child - this did not protect > either from LV. Lily did something more but what? Alla: I actually read that quote as completely discarding the idea that Lily's sacrifice was planned in advance. I was actually quite happy to read that, because the idea of Lily preparing the sacrifice in advance did not sit well with me. Din't JKR say that what Lily did counts more simply because she WAS offered choice to live or die and James was not? Lily did more by simply consciously choosing to die for her child. That's how I read the interview anyway. JMO, Alla, a little bit confused. From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Wed Jul 27 19:43:49 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:43:49 -0000 Subject: OotP: That Hazing Scene In-Reply-To: <20050727133421.75423.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135291 > Marozi: > > This seems to vary according to circumstances/personal > preferences, but Snape is apparently not a trouser > fan. In PS/SS, for instance, Harry sees his bare legs > when his robes are lifted. At least he does wear > underpants, unlike the old boy in the nightgown at the > World Cup. > Gatta: Snape seems to have a problem with learning from experience. See Mary Kingsley (www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wkingsley.htm) on "the blessings of a good thick skirt." Admittedly, she was exploring Africa and falling into game pits and such, but life in the WW (PS/SS, p. 160, hb U.S. ed.)is also not without incident. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 21:43:09 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050727214309.47944.qmail@web32711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135292 Samantha wrote: Hi Potterphiles! In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Lynn: I also think the reason we don't hear about Ginny's robes is because it isn't germaine to the story. After all, there isn't really any attention paid to the dress robes of the twins either. I just assumed they either borrowed the robes of their brothers or had their hand-me-downs. That said, men are notorious for hanging on to suits and dress clothes until they are moth eaten. Since we know wizard's live a long life, that's probably a reason why there isn't a whole lot of choice for Ron. Also remember that he is getting his dress robes at the beginning of the school year. At that time the Weasleys have all the school costs and money gets tight buying all those books and supplies. Ginny finds out she's going closer to Christmas. There may be a bit more spare cash around if they do buy her new dress robes. However, I submit that if witches are anything like a lot of Muggle women, there were a whole lot of dress robes to choose from as who would want to be caught dead in the one they wore to the last Wizard's Ball. So, it is possible that Ginny got great dress robes but at second hand prices. Lynn (who is still mad at Molly for not altering Ron's robes into something remotely decent. test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 27 21:44:04 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:44:04 -0000 Subject: Your take on locket? In-Reply-To: <1dd.41ee0f49.30192e68@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135293 > anna writes: > > >What is your take on the locket exactly? If Regulus died after putting > >the note in the locket and securing it back in the cave, wouldn't that > >mean the locket would not have been at Grimmauld place but save in the > >cave for years and years? > > > > Ray wrote: > A) Two different lockets, B) there's no reason to believe that Regulus > didn't return to GP. Potioncat: My take on it. No one sneaked in, crossed the lake, drained the basin, took the horcrux, left a fake, got out safely and went home. As difficult as it was for the Greatest Wizard who ever lived and the Boy Who Lived, I just don't think anyone else could get away with it. Someone did switch the fake-horcrux-locket with the genuine horcrux prior to its being placed in the cave. So here's one possibility: RAB is given the task by LV to place the Locket in a cave. RAB understands what the Locket is and has time to switch it, writing a note to go into the fake!horcrux and hiding the real one somewhere else. RAB and whoever else LV assigned, took the fake!horcrux to the cave, no spells/curses/hexes were yet in place. They dropped the fake! horcrux into the basin and one of two things happened. 1) They then initiated the security spells themselves, and reported back to LV that the deed was done. In this case, RAB goes home. He/she may have been killed later. OR 2) As soon as the fake!horcrux landed in the basin, the security spells were activated by magic LV had put into place and the treasure hiders, just like unfortunate pirates of yore, were killed. RAB is in the lake. I believe RAB put the fake!horcrux in the basin because I don't think he/she could have gotten the real one out. And I don't think LV did it himself because he would have known the horcrux was fake. But I don't think the basin knew the difference. And it's very likely that RAB wasn't supposed to know what the Locket was. And if I'm correct, Regulus' body was never found. So he isn't ruled out as RAB. (yet) Potioncat From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 27 21:45:04 2005 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:45:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E80060.8000000@bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135294 HunterGreen: > I doubt that Ginny is going to be captured by Voldemort and used > against Harry. Its possible, but its not any more likely than > Hermione or Ron being used in that way. The main reason I'd doubt it > is because the situation you mentioned has *already* happened. Ginny > was already used to lure Harry to Voldemort (in CoS), why would the > final book repeat it? If anything, the books are heading toward a > Harry Vs. Voldemort *alone* sort of showdown (hence the death of > Harry's father figure and his mentor in the last 2 books). If anyone is used against Harry, it better be Hermione or Ron. I mean, all this time we've had the Trio tackling everything together, at least as much as possible. I'd be so mad if suddenly *Ginny* assumed that level of importance as a character. In fact I think that this is one of the things about HBP I didn't like. Ron and Hermione are relegated to background status, not even secondary character status. Ron spends most of his time either snogging Lavender or being surly and insecure. Hermione spends most of her time being insufferable and obnoxious. Really, usually Hermione is like that but there's enough of her other qualities that those don't grate so badly. She did nothing else this time around except in the very last scene at the end, when she finally seemed like the old Hermione again. > I personally didn't care for the final "break-up" scene between the > two of them either (far too 'Spider-Man' for my taste), but rather > than foreshadowing it could have just been a way to get Ginny out of > the picture so Harry could go it alone in book seven (since she'll be > at hogwarts if it re-opens, I assume), and reunite with her later on. I hated the whole Ginny subplot. As others have pointed out, it was badly done, even though I'd known all along that Ginny and Harry would get together eventually. The break-up scene was just stupid because if nothing else, Ginny is still a Weasley. Voldemort knows quite well that the Weasleys are Harry's adopted family. Wormtail would have told him if he couldn't have figured it out any other way. Any Weasley is in danger, and if he's particularly worried about any of them he should be thinking of Ron, not Ginny. Though I have to admit, I do hold on to the hope that Ginny was gotten out of the way so that Harry could discover his real true love...Luna Lovegood. Hee! Shannon From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 21:51:05 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which SHIPS will sail? WAS: Re: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: <20050727180016.15930.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050727215105.1792.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135295 --- Lynda Cordova wrote: > You are definately not. This relationship has been > strongly foreshadowed since the beginning of the > series, as has the Harry/Ginny > relationship--although Harry needs a dose of being > talked to the way Tonks talked to Lupin. Oh, I agree. I'm conflicted, though. On the one hand, I don't want H/G to completely overshadow the trio. OTOH, I want Ginny to be significant in the fight. > I'll add > right here as well that I've been telling my friends > that Neville and Luna are just about the right speed > for each other since Luna's appearance in OOP. Of > course, some of these relationships may be shaken up > a bit in the next book, but there you go. > > > > Lynda I did think of them right after OOTP, but had no strong feelings about them as a couple. I'd probably be more apt to ship them after having read HBP if JKR hadn't sunk N/L. With nothing else to go one, I'll pick Neville/Parvati because she defended him in PS/SS (no, I'm not really serious - but I wouldn't object to it). Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From slmuth at hotmail.com Wed Jul 27 21:54:22 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:54:22 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135296 Julie wrote: > I think this is because of the genre in which she is writing the > books. It is a mystery/fantasy genre, not a romance genre. I do > expect very little in the way of romance in the HP series, and what > little I do expect is more along the lines of teenage angst for > character development. Agreed, but I think this complete lack of romance is one reason why so many have felt disappointment with the H/G story line. The reader doesn't feel like s/he is experiencing the emotions along with the characters. Janeway From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 21:55:37 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:55:37 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135297 > >>Alla: > > Oh, and what do you mean that Dumbledore quickly figured out that > Fake!Moody did something out of character? > He was fooled for a year, no? > Betsy Hp: But Fake!Moody didn't act out of character. Not for the entire year. And at the very moment Fake!Moody *did* act out of character, Dumbledore immediately suspected him. In other words, at the moment there was something to suspect, Dumbledore not only entertained, but listened to his suspicions. > >>Janeway: > > I wonder if we don't have canon evidence that Dumbledore did > indeed fail to pick up on the "lingering resentments and dangers > within Snape's personality" ? but not because DD was a > fool, but instead because of Snape's skill at Occlumency. > > That Snape hated (and had pretty good reason to hate) James. Not > just for saving his life, but for a sustained pattern of bullying > and humiliating him. If Snape has been hiding this from Dumbledore > all along, it's not so surprising that DD would be mistaken about > Snape's motives. And since Harry had seen this memory, he had > better insight on Snape's true feelings than DD did. > Betsy Hp: We have canon showing that Dumbledore knew that Snape and James hated each other. Dumbledore tells Harry, "they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy." (SS paperback p.300) So Dumbledore was well aware of his potion master's feelings towards one James Potter. He also witnessed the dislike between Snape and Sirius in both PoA and GoF. *And* he had the evidence of Snape stopping the Occlumency lessons in OotP. All it took was one lapse on the part of Fake!Moody (during a time of utter chaos, no less) for Dumbledore to recognize that something was wrong. If it was Snape's hatred of James that kept him in Voldemort's camp all of these years and Dumbledore somehow *missed* it... well, he's back to being a fool, IMO. > >>a_svirn: > And if Narcissa to be believed Snape is pretty much Voldemort's > second... > Betsy Hp: EXACTLY!! Because this is what it comes down to. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort think they've got a bead on Snape. They both feel like they've taken a measure of the man and come up with a correct answer. Only one of them can be right, IMO. And I honestly cannot wrap my mind around the idea of *Voldemort* being a better judge of character than Dumbledore. In many ways these books revolve around choosing a side. Even those who appear to avoid choosing (Umbridge, for example) wind up on a side. (Umbridge did quite a bit to help Voldemort in OotP, even if inadvertantly.) Every character ends up making a choice to side with Dumbledore or to side with Voldemort. That's why I'm leery of the idea of Dumbledore making Snape take an Unbreakable Vow, which takes away Snape's ability to choose, and it's why I doubt that Snape is only out for himself, which is an attempt to side-step the choice. Snape definitely made a choice, IMO, and somehow I doubt he could have fooled Dumbledore as to his choice so thoroughly and for so long. > >>Valky: > > Its fair to say that Snape really needed to earn the trust of each > individual himself, not have Dumbledore assure it for him. But I am > not quite sure yet that he isn't actually trying to do that now, at > the enormous sacrifice of being alone and in grave danger. > Betsy Hp: It's interesting though, to me anyway, that on their final adventure together, Dumbledore makes a *huge* deal of Harry trusting him implicitly. No matter what *Harry* thinks is going on, he must follow Dumbledore's orders. And Harry does as Dumbledore asks, going so far as to torture his beloved mentor because Dumbledore *told* him to do it. So, in a sense, Dumbledore wasn't asking Harry to learn to trust himself, he was asking Harry to trust in someone else. Which, to my mind anyway, is more the lesson Harry needs to learn. > >>Betsy Hp: > >Snape, on the other hand, is one of Dumbledore's most trusted > >confidants. > >>Nora: > Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR > says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. > > >>SSSusan: > I tend to agree with Nora on this. > > The other bit of evidence I believe we have that Snape wasn't privy > to as much as we thought is that we have now been told that ONLY > TWO PEOPLE know/knew the full contents of the prophecy: DD & Harry. > Betsy Hp: Oops! Let me clarify. I don't mean that Snape knows everything, or even most of everything, that Dumbledore knows. However, when it comes to the war on Voldemort, I think Snape knows more about Dumbledore's plans than any other member of the Order. Just as, when it comes to the running of Hogwarts, I think McGonagall knows more than any other staff member. I base this theory on Snape's overall involvement in just about every plan or strategy Dumbledore devises. Other Order members come and go, but Snape is *always* there. I don't think this means that Snape knows everything involved in those plans (I wasn't surprised that Dumbledore told no one about the prophecy) nor do I think Snape knows of all the plans Dumbledore has (or had) in motion. But Snape knows more than most. Betsy Hp, who ruthlessly snipped and reorganized and pulled from several posts, and hopes it all came out correctly From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 27 22:06:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:06:16 -0000 Subject: Diaries and textbooks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135299 On this subject of the diary and the Potions textbook, I do not believe that we can draw parallels or comparisons because they do not fall into the same category. When Harry and Ron first find the diary in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, it is interesting that Ron is the first to suggest that it could be a dangerous magical artefact and quotes a couple of examples. Harry is initially sceptical and thinks that it is nothing of interest. It belonged to someone called T.M. Riddle and was bought at a newsagent's shop in Vauxhall Road by which Harry assumed he was Muggle-born. Full stop. He keeps it but his interest is not fully aroused again until the Valentine's Day incident when ink is spilled over all his books ? except the diary. This leads him to the experiment with the ink blot when he discovers he can communicate with the book, an experiment which reveals that it is indeed magical. And so his dealings with Tom Riddle begin. Tom confirms that it was created as a diary "preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages". So this book was produced specifically to hold the memory image of Tom Riddle until someone opened it and could be led to "finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work". (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.230 UK edition) Just as a side comment here, it only occurred to me a few days ago that the diary is first cousin to a Pensieve in allowing someone to access the thoughts held in it - but only under Diary!Tom's control. Now, the Potions textbook. When I was teaching, I always found that I had a few textbooks over and perhaps a few tatty older copies which usually occupied the back of a shelf in one of my cupboards. Often, they lay there untouched for months but occasionally, if someone arrived at a Maths class having forgotten their book, I might fish out one of these for their benefit ? although mine would probably be just for the duration of the class. Again, some of them might have odd jottings in the margins, though these might be as simple as a piece of working out. If you go to my bookshelf at home and pull out a book, say, of walks in Surrey, I might have made notes in the margin where the data had altered or we had found an alternative way to cover part of the walk. The Potions book is like that. It seems to have been gathering dust in the corner cupboard. It has marginal notes which allow an alternative way of reaching the same result. Now, they are not sitting a test or an exam; OK, there is a "prize" at the end but if the owner of the book had recorded a way of completing the job more efficiently, Harry felt it in order to use this - especially since he wanted to beat Draco. Perhaps this was a trifle underhand on this occasion but, on future occasions, when there are no prizes ? other than Slughorn's praise(!) ? I think Harry was in order to use the improved methods suggested by the unknown writer. There is no suggestion of hidden magic, no hidden personalities waiting to jump out at people, no threats to Harry's life. I can recall occasions when a Computer Studies student has handed in a piece of work and said "I found this bit in a book in the library, sir, and thought it was OK to use it" or something similar and I have replied "Well done, I'm glad you've researched a bit." Where Harry was incautious was in trying out the spells, knowing that they /were/ spells and not knowing precisely what they would do. The spell he used on Draco proved to be dangerous but let us remember that it was to block an Unforgivable curse from the latter gentleman. I wonder if Hermione's constant naggings were not because of her irritation that not everybody embraces her ordered view of life. I wonder how many of us have taken the opportunity to improve our work with "a little help from our friends" at some point in the past; I'm sure I have. Geoff: As has been said in the days of old - "Plagiarize, Let no one else's work evade your eyes, Remember why the good Lord made your eyes, So don't shade your eyes, But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure always to call it please, `research'." (Tom Lehrer: Lobachevsky) From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jul 27 22:27:12 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:27:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Learning and Teaching In-Reply-To: <20050727134001.INMQ14195.lakermmtao02.cox.net@Heim> References: <20050727134001.INMQ14195.lakermmtao02.cox.net@Heim> Message-ID: <42E80A40.3070507@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135300 weildman wrote: > There is no way Snape could have been deviating from the books in his > blackboard versions of Potions in the previous books. Hermione, who has > memorized every book she has read, would have noted the deviation early on > and would have raved about the uselessness of the book. Please, Hermione is not a parrot. It would be really useless to memorise recipes. Not properties of ingredients, not general principles, but recipes? > > I still think Snape failed the Wizarding World when he failed to update the > potions textbook. We don't know what's involved in publishing process in the WW. Maybe you need to be well connected, maybe you need to market yourself, maybe you need to be a winner of the most charming smile competition. I think it's a premature assumption that Snape didn't want to be published, as opposed to could not. Irene From joj at rochester.rr.com Wed Jul 27 22:31:56 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:31:56 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ginny and physical affection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135301 wrote: I think Harry is > drawing great comfort from the physical aspect of the relationship; not surprising considering > he's lacked physical affection all of his life. Joj writes: But there's no way to know that, except for the "last few weeks have been a dream" line. We'd all like to believe that, and it's apparantly true, but we've seen Harry mistreated so much, why couldn't we see Harry take comfort and feel contented like never before during a hug with his lady love? Is that really too much to ask? > True, Harry does not yet have the long-term, share-everything bond with Ginny that he does > with Ron and Hermione. But that is not all his doing; it's DD who has told him to share the full > prophecy and the Horcrux story only with R & H. Joj: Actually, Dumbledore didn't do this, J K Rowling did this. Why has she set it up this way? wrote: > I think this is because of the genre in which she is writing the > books. It is a mystery/fantasy genre, not a romance genre. I do > expect very little in the way of romance in the HP series, and what > little I do expect is more along the lines of teenage angst for > character development. Well, I wish we'd have gotten very little in the way of romance in this book, if this is the way it's to be written. I had a feeling from the way she wrote the kiss with Cho (heard about, not seen) that Jo might not be up to the task. She's a brilliant writer, but I pray she never tries to write a romance. Joj From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 22:38:38 2005 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 6270 In-Reply-To: <1122499704.1730.24894.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050727223838.93634.qmail@web52409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135302 Re: Ginny vs Harry and all the other "ships" that are being dissected. I agree that the romance angle was introduced as a sidebar topic - a bit of a break from the death, fear and foreboding in HBP. I suspect that these are not a focus because they're not really important; that JKR introduces these relationships somewhat casually because that's what happens in the real world of teenagers. Remember: except for Tonks/Lupin, these are KIDS we're reading about...wizard kids but kids all the same. The shelf-life of young romance is generally somewhat less than that of a wheel of cheese, so although I'm fine with a bit of adolescent angst and snogging, I'd be extremely bored by in-depth storylines about teen love. And yes, thanks for asking. I am an old killjoy. However, reading about Snape and_________; THAT would be a page-turner ! AF __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed Jul 27 22:39:46 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (IreneMikhlin) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:39:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Age, integrity, and the potions textbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E80D32.50603@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135303 hekatesheadband wrote: > Granted, he may have wanted students to experiment for > themselves - but with the way he berates them for failure when they > do deviate from the book's directions, how can he expect that they > would ever dare it? Exactly, he berates them for failure, not for the deviations. I don't remember him going around and criticizing the process much, only the result. > There would be no need to spoon-feed it to > them: the occasional "Arsenius Jigger says to do X, but I find that > Y can also be useful" or "For homework, think of how you might > modify these instructions, and explain them." He's never done > anything like. I remember a homework to the lines of "explain why your mistakes caused the result they did". Irene From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 23:20:42 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:20:42 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135305 Julie wrote: "I think this is because of the genre in which she is writing the books. It is a mystery/fantasy genre, not a romance genre. I do expect very little in the way of romance in the HP series, and what little I do expect is more along the lines of teenage angst for character development." Del replies: I don't really agree, for several reasons. First, JKR is writing *her* books. She doesn't care about sticking to a genre. I seem to remember that she actually said so in an interview. So, JKR is writing Harry's story, and we are reading Harry's story. Up until the middle of HBP, we've been privy to every little detail of Harry's every day life. JKR only stopped short of telling us when Harry takes his showers or when he goes to the bathroom. In particular, when Harry started having butterflies in the stomach because of Cho, we knew all about it. When he went into shock after their first kiss, we knew all about it. When he went on a date with her to Hogsmeade, we knew all about it. And so on. But now that Harry is apparently living a real, deep love story, we know *nothing* about it! We saw Harry do all those things with Cho, we saw him having all those different feelings for her, we saw him dealing with the effects of his crush, but we don't see *anything* about how his true love story affects him! This is simply wrong. There's no way JKR can pretend that the second half of HBP is truly Harry's story, if his romance with Ginny is not shown. The second half of HBP is *not* Harry's true story anymore: it is a highly edited version of it, a version where the most important part of Harry's life is completely dismissed (Harry is 16, remember. There's hardly anything more important than love at this age, even for the Chosen One). It's a cheat, nothing less. In a way, it's JKR's fault if so many people are disappointed. *She* is the one who set the high standard. She's the one who so brilliantly told us about Harry's first girlfriend and their story together. She's the one who demonstrated that she *could* and that she was *willing* to spend time on romance. So now I find it absolutely normal that we expect her to satisfy our desire to participate in Harry's deep love story with Ginny. JKR *trained* us to live in Harry's skin, she *trained* us to care for him, to live every little up and down of his life with him, so there's no way she can get away with not showing us that major part of Harry's life: his first true love story. To me, her not showing us his love story with Ginny is as much cheating as if she decided to not show us his final show-down with LV, if she just hopped to 10 years later when Harry is telling his own story to his kid, and he goes "after all that, when I finally fought LV, it was actually quite easy, you know, I just AK'ed him (or whatever), and, well, he just died, you know." Those books are Harry's story, and there's no way the author can avoid showing us Harry's great love story. But of course, this is just my opinion ;-) Del From gailelisabeth at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 23:28:26 2005 From: gailelisabeth at yahoo.com (gailelisabeth) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:28:26 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florence" wrote: > Cool idea that drinking the potion put the Horcrux into Dumbledore! >...But I agree with dan that deliberately drinking it just to get rid of one horcrux seems too high a price to pay. Good point -- but I don't believe that DD drank it *knowing* the Horcrux was in it. It may not have been the Horcrux, but there was something terribly wrong with Dumbledore, and with the "kill me" quote and his insistence on Harry fetching Snape to the Tower, I feel DD must have had some reason to *want* Snape to kill him. > ..., or moving Snape far into LV's good graces....could be worth more > than DD's life and give the Order a better chance of defeating LV. Possible. But DD dying just to make Snape look good to LV sounds like a bit of a stretch. And his pleading with Snape ("Please..") sounds more like a man who knows something is very wrong with him. I agree with previous posters that DD's pleading, and the long look that passed between him and Snape, and the revulsion on Snape's face (cc Harry's revulsion when he has to feed DD the potion) -- and above all, Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward, all point to DD's having wanted/ordered Snape to kill him. And that it may have been the hardest thing Snape ever did. I can't believe we won't know for sure for two years! Gail > > -oiboyz From mariabronte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 23:46:40 2005 From: mariabronte at yahoo.com (Mari) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:46:40 -0000 Subject: Snape commits murder or Merely Unstoppers Death? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135307 Julie wrote: > I've been thinking about Snape's first speech to his new Potions class > in PS/SS. Snape told the students he could teach them to "stopper > death." We've debated on what that means and how it might come > to be used in the series, mostly in terms of perhaps keeping Harry > alive at some point. This is very interesting, in spite of the fact that I read Snape's speech differently: ? "You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potionmaking," he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every word. Like Professor McGonagall, Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort. "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind and ensnaring the senses ... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." . What Snape is doing here is really a rhetorical flourish. I didn't take it as meaning that they would learn to drain death from a body and contain it in a bottle, or make a potion that will stop death in its tracks. Snape is saying if you know how to make these potions correctly, having that particular potion in a bottle will be the same as having fame, glory *or death* in a bottle; i.e there is a potion in existence that will mean certain death to the drinker. Isn't that how everyone thinks of the potion Harry wins as a prize in HBP? It's the equivalent of having good luck in a bottle. If Snape's meaning was a potion that would stop death from spreading to the rest of the body, I just have a feeling that he would have expressed it differently. He is intending to frighten the students here; the idea of a potion that is the equivalent of death is a bottle is far more frightening than a potion that is intended to stop death in its tracks or prevent it from spreading. Still thinking about this one. Mari. From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 28 00:06:13 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:06:13 -0000 Subject: What is the use of Ch2 "Spinners End"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littlegreenpartyhats" wrote: > All this plus her Snape comments in the interviews and her previous > statement that Books 6 and 7 were time for answers not more > questions leads me to the ESE!Snape conclusion. > littlegreenpartyhats If you look back at other comments Rowling has made it is obvious that she loves to equivocate. The conclusions readers draw from her statements don't always end up agreeing with what happens in the next book. The statement about Snape's culpability being greater than Voldemort's because he *has* been loved could refer to the bad character traits Snape had developed before ever going over to the Death Eaters (resentment, self-centeredness, bullying, cruelty), not necessarily to an ESE end for him. The comment about not wanting to be loved by Snape could mean that anyone Snape loves is going to be detected by Voldemort and marked for death. The biggest objection that I see to ESE Snape is "Severus... please" in the scene on the tower. I cannot buy into the idea that Dumbledore is pleading for his life. He has known about the plot against him all year. He may or not know about the Unbreakable Vow from Snape, but he knows it from Harry shortly after the beginning of the winter term. He knows that Draco has made some kind of breakthrough that night before they leave for the cave. Knowing all this, when he gets to the tower, he sends Harry to Snape, orders him to tell no one else, and then begs for his life when Snape shows up. It just doesn't add up. Add to that the numerous statements about death the Dumbledore has mad throuhgout the books "To the well organized mid death is but the next adventure". It may be hard for the young to understand,but for the Flamels, death is just "going to bed after a very, very long day." My theory is: Dumbledore deals with probabilities, not certainties. He is old, he knows he is going to die from old age, from an accident, from a curse while searching for the horcruxes, from assassination or something before long. Snape tells him about the vow. He says a school year is a long time, maybe I'll die of some other cause before Draco can pull anything off and we won't have to worry about. But he makes Snape promise: if Draco does pull off an attempt on my life you have step in and take it out of his hands so that he is neither killed nor killer. houyhnhnm From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 28 00:17:54 2005 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:17:54 -0000 Subject: Aragog's venom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135309 --- "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > There are a handful of non-human creatures that have played a role in > the series so far, some ... more important that others. > Buckbeak, ... was quite important in POA, and Fawkes in COS. ... > > But what about Aragog or, more to the point, the venom that was > extracted from him by Slughorn? Aragog is certainly a rarity among > the animals. For one thing, he can talk. ... he dates back > to ...when Riddle was a student. Can someone imagine a property > of Aragog's venom that will somehow come into play in Book Seven? >> Ersatz Harry aussie: If it helps, Nagini, LV's snake helped with venom for the original potion to get LV back to Britian. (GOF ch 33) "a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided ... I was soon returned to an almost human form, and strong enough to travel. If snake venom helped bring LV in, could spider venom hurt? Hurt especially LV's horcruxes, the way the Basalisk's venomous fang destroyed the diary's horcrux. Venoms are used in Potions - and with the combination of Slughorn and the HBP's Advanced Potions text book, Aragog's venom may be so important, Ron himself may praise the spider for the first time in his life. -aussie- From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 00:22:47 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:22:47 -0000 Subject: Which SHIPS will sail? WAS: Re: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: <20050727215105.1792.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135310 --- Lynda Cordova wrote: > > > You are definately not. This relationship has been > > strongly foreshadowed since the beginning of the > > series, as has the Harry/Ginny > > relationship--although Harry needs a dose of being > > talked to the way Tonks talked to Lupin. > Rebecca replied: Oh, I agree. I'm conflicted, though. On the one > hand, I don't want H/G to completely overshadow the > trio. OTOH, I want Ginny to be significant in the > fight. > **Marcela now: Well, there you go. That's the problem with a fourth character brought up in the trio friendship, isn't it? I wonder why Jo didn't let us know much about Ginny in HBP, and why she didn't include Ginny in the trio interaction as it was expected... Perhaps because we won't see much of her in HP7? At one moment, I was fearing for Ron's life, what with all those bad omens or imagery surrounding him... but now I'm really fearing for Ginny's life. So far, Jo's record of killing characters tells me that maybe she didn't want the readers to know much about Ginny because she'll end up killing her off, :( Jo's character killings record: - Cedric= perfect boy, tall and handsome as ever, popular with girls, dating Cho, TWT champion. Killed because he was a 'spare', just to prove the point that the innocent die first. - Sirius= perfect friend, handsome, sent unjustly to prison, only father figure to Harry, his behaviour deteriorated a bit in OoTP. Killed because Harry needed that death to fight Voldie's possession. Interestingly, Harry had saved Sirius before. - Dumbledore= guardian and protector of Harry, whether he was right or wrong is still debatable, but I think that there's no doubt that he loved Harry in the end. Killed because the Hero's Journey format of this story called for it. Again, Dumbledore's behaviour had been questioned even by Harry -not just the readers- in OoTP, and was at mortal peril in OoTP while dueling Tom. James and Lily= handsome/beautiful, very smart and powerful. Killed because the Hero of the story needed to be an orphan. Harry still doesn't know much about them, and the only time he'd seen them in action was not very comforting. Interestingly, Harry had saved Cedric's and Sirius's lives before they actually got killed. Also, Harry has lost his parents, a good acquaintance/friend (Cedric), a surrogate father, and a mentor/grandfather (Dumbledore). If Harry needs to suffer another loss, which one do you think is Harry/reader more prepared for: Ginny's, whom he'd already decided to break up with and apparently won't get involved in Harry's quest? Or Ron's/Hermione's, whom had already pledged allegiance to his quest and apparently will be sharing moments with him in HP7? As a final addition to this, it always struck me as "too rushed and simple" when Jo had Harry accept Sirius Black as a surrogate father in PoA. I mean, I understand that Harry had always dreamed of someone like Sirius to show up in his life and that nobody could surpass the Dursleys' mistreatment, but I thought that Harry was too quick to agree to live with Sirius. After all, he was a perfect stranger and enemy before that Shack night! In addition to this, Jo didn't take advantage of Harry spending half his summer in Grimmauld Place (OoTP) to get to know Sirius much, we the readers were a bit disappointed at the lack of interaction between those two. Don't you find this very similar to how H/G was handled? Any thoughts? Marcela From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 00:47:58 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:47:58 -0000 Subject: the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135311 Jim Ferer (me): "If Snape had been a better man and teacher, all the NEWT students might have had a copy of _Advanced Potions, Second Edition_, by Borage & Snape. If Snape wasn't sharing his tricks of the trade then that doesn't speak well of him as a teacher." Potioncat: "But we don't know what Snape's NEWT students had for a text book. Or if they used a text. This is Slughorn's choice of texts, and he's using the same one that he used for all those many years!" Potioncat: "Potioncat: I don't think this greatly improved text book was gathering dust in the potions lab all these years. I think it had been stolen.(Another reason he didn't write his own book; the notes were gone.)" Sorry, Potioncat, but I can't let you get away with that one. It take serious imagination to come up with a stolen textbook and lost recollections of Potions tricks that Snape can't remember any more. Here's the scene: ? Ah, yes, Professor McGonagall did mention . . . not to worry, my dear boy, not to worry at all. You can use ingredients from the store cupboard today, and I'm sure we can lend you some scales, and we've got a small stock of old books here, they'll do until you can write to Flourish and Blotts. . . .Slughorn strode over to a corner cupboard and, after a moment's foraging, emerged with two very battered-looking copies of Advanced Potion-Making by Libatius Borage, which he gave to Harry and Ron along with two sets of tarnished scales. ? This sounds like something I've seen repeated in a zillion classrooms over my school years. And, by luck, Harry gets Snape's old book. Maybe Snape didn't even remember it was there, but the dusty book rummaged out of a cupboard in the classroom gave Harry his leg up. Does it speak well for a person when his defenders have to explain away *absolutely everything* he does, including betraying people to their deaths? ***Twice?*** Jim Ferer From mkemp at aandr.com.au Thu Jul 28 00:51:44 2005 From: mkemp at aandr.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:51:44 -0000 Subject: DD, Snape, RAB, Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135312 Sorry if this has been discussed, I havent had a chance to go over all the previous posts, but I wanted to get another opinion on a few things... 1) I have a hard time believing Snape is bad... JK makes it too obvious that he is bad for it to be so. He made an Unbreakable Vow with Draco's Mum... so had to kill Dumbledore eventually, and I think Dumbledore told him so (which is why Nearly Headless Nick heard DD and Snape arguing) - the Horcrux in Dumbledore from the Cave Potion is an interesting twist I hadn't considered (will think on this) 1a) If Snape was bad he would have killed Harry - why not. If Voldemort was willing to have someone else kill Dumbledore, why not Harry - actually, especially Harry. If he can have Harry dead and doesn't have to be involved, it has got to be a good thing - especially when he has had personal attempts in the past to kill Harry and all have failed... why not have Snape do it. 1b) And, is the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape so much that he and Snape (Professor Snape, Harry) have their own Unbreakable Vow? 2) I am assuming the RAB that took the original Horcruxed necklace was Regulus Black (Sirius's Brother) in a last ditched effort to redeem himself for joining the death eaters, and was killed for doing it. 3) Where are the 7 Horcruxes - 3.1) Voldemort 3.2) The Guant Ring 3.3) Slytherins Necklace (which was stolen by RAB) 3.4) Riddle's Diary 3.5) Nagini (this is evidenced in book 5 when DD muses after hearing Harry's vision of Mr Weasley's attack - "but in essence divided" - he new harry was channeling Voldemort, now Harry's channeling Nagini, they must be connected) 3.6) Hufflepuffs Goblet - this an assumption of Dumbledore's 3.7) What else... something of Ravenclaws, something of Gryffindor's, Still inside the Chamber of Secrets (something has to bring Harry back to Hogwarts next year - why have 7 books if he doesnt do 7 years of school?) or my favourite - inside Harry Himself 3a) I have been inclined to dismiss and then rethink this Horcrux Harry theory - Maybe Voldemort doesn't know there is one in harry, but this is why they are so connected - harry has part of voldemort in him?? It's a dodgey theory I know - too many holes - why would voldy not know, if he does know why try to kill him, (just to name a couple) 3b) How do you get rid of a Horcrux - Riddle's Diary suffered a Basalisk fang, but the Guant Ring was still intact once the Horcrux was removed. What do *you* think - have we already seen what the 7 Horcruxes are, but don't realise yet? Pickle Jimmy From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Thu Jul 28 00:56:11 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:56:11 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135313 So, this is evidence of many things, in fandom at any rate - most notably that Severus is furious at having to follow Dumbledore's expectations, or that he is gathering hatred at Voldemort to accomplish the deed, or he doens't think of Albus at all, only Draco's wilting, or that he is repulsed by Albus' weakness, his victim state. Wait, did I make up the last one? But that's the only explanation that really, honestly, makes total sense this way, considering what we know about both of those characters. It's what came to my mind reading the passage first time through. At any rate, the meaning of that revulsion and hatred is key. I haven't read an entirely convincing, Snape-based explanation for it, is all I'm saying. However, when Snape says the Potter is for the Dark Lord, I also hear him saying, "forget Potter, he's irrelevant to us right now," and underneath that, I hear "the Dark Lord is for Potter." So, I'm as ambiguous as the rest here. Nevertheless, the revulsion and hatred needs a real explanation, not a rationalization. dan From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jul 28 01:45:35 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:45:35 -0700 Subject: Magic, Timelines, Computers, and Search Engines (was: Did R.A.B. drink the Kool-Aid?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <667886976.20050727184535@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135314 Wednesday, July 27, 2005, 8:46:23 AM, Sharon wrote: S> However, I don't believe that Hermione would have done a Google-type S> search engine for the Hogwarts library, at least if you take the S> Lexicon time frame into account, in which the Trio starts Hogwarts in S> 1991 and finishes in 1998. FWIW, I've never accepted the Lexicon timeline if only because it makes Dudley's PS2 an anachronism, and the full moon is at the completely wrong time of the month in June, 1994. That said, I doubt even Hermione could create a search engine for the Library (at least not by herself). She would have to go through every single book in the library, create a hash table of keywords, etc., etc. And in the end, every search she attempted would probably just turn up a bunch of porn sites. >:) I have to admit, though, that as a computer programmer I've always been intrigued at the idea of applying programming concepts to magic. (I'm actually working on a novel with that sub-theme.) For example, I think Crouch Jr's tampering with the Goblet of Fire and the Triwizard Portkey both constituted a magical "reprogramming" of those objects. Maybe this is the mysterious unmentioned class from which comes the missing twelfth O.W.L.: Magical Programming! -- Dave From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 02:35:33 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which SHIPS will sail? WAS: Re: Foreshadowing of Book 6 from POA Movie / Harry & Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728023533.6600.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135315 --- templar1112002 wrote: > --- Lynda Cordova wrote: > > > > > You are definately not. This relationship has > been > > > strongly foreshadowed since the beginning of the > > > series, as has the Harry/Ginny > > > relationship--although Harry needs a dose of > being > > > talked to the way Tonks talked to Lupin. > > > Rebecca replied: Oh, I agree. I'm conflicted, > though. On the one > > hand, I don't want H/G to completely overshadow > the > > trio. OTOH, I want Ginny to be significant in the > > fight. > > > > > **Marcela now: Well, there you go. That's the > problem with a > fourth character brought up in the trio friendship, > isn't it? > I wonder why Jo didn't let us know much about Ginny > in HBP, and why > she didn't include Ginny in the trio interaction as > it was > expected... Perhaps because we won't see much of her > in HP7? > I find that unlikely. In the interviews JKR mentioned how powerful Ginny was and there's just no reason to give her that kind of power if it isn't going to be used. Rebecca ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Thu Jul 28 02:37:17 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:37:17 -0000 Subject: Snape learned the second part of the prophecy, now watch out Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135317 Really! I think so. Yep. How did he hear it? Did Phineas tell him? Did he have a little "chat" with Trewlawney, feed her some superfreak potion? After all, he knows it was her blurt. Did the memory go into a pensieve, say from Neville, of the DOM battle, and with repeated viewings, one could get the second part, from out of the general mayhem? Or does he perhaps just suspect the second part, based on long observation of Albus' behaviour toward Scarhead? Added to the Daily Prophet's "chosen one" (which Snape uses as a cutting remark to let Potter know he's read it). Has Snape's entire objective been to get the second part, and he's stymied without it, in his work for Voldemort? That in itself would almost be the basis of Dumbledore's trust? At any rate, now that Mr Snape knows, or has a very good idea, he's not going to try to off Scarhead, but rather get Scarhead to fulfill his destiny, and then move in after Voldemort is dead dead dead. "Here, Potter, let me help you with those Horlicks..." Mwwaaa haaaa haaaa dan From leslie41 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 02:33:32 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:33:32 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135318 dan wrote: > I haven't read an entirely convincing, Snape-based explanation for it, > is all I'm saying the revulsion and hatred needs a real > explanation, not a rationalization. Well, no explanation is going to be "entirely convincing." If Rowling wanted us to be entirely convinced, she would have seen to it that we were. She didn't. If she had wanted us to be convinced, for example, she would have written something more like this: Snape glared balefully at Dumbledore, years of disgust and loathing for the old man coming to the surface at last. "Severus...please..." But a look of triumph washed over Snape's harsh face. "Please what, old man? 'Please don't kill me'? I've been waiting for this moment for years, you pathetic, crumbling excuse for a wizard...Aveda Kedavra!" That is *not* how the text reads. And there will be no "real" explanation until book 7. I believe Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore, dreaded doing it, and regretted doing it. But did it because it had to be done. The circumstances of that have yet to be revealed. The mere fact that Rowling leaves Snape's motivations and his feelings suspect is cause enough for doubt. And ask yourself this...if you "had" to kill something you loved...a beloved dog lying half-dead in the road, injured beyond recovery by a passing car, what look, as you pulled the trigger, would be on *your* face? Horror. Revulsion. Maybe even something that looked like hate. But that doesn't mean you want to kill your dog. Leslie41 From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 02:50:04 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:50:04 -0000 Subject: Aragog's venom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > If snake venom helped bring LV in, could spider venom hurt? > I like this idea quite a bit. I'll have to check my copy of the earlier books, but wasn't it stated somewhere that the spiders considered the basilisk their greatest enemy? If I'm recalling this correctly, then the idea of snake and spider venoms having opposite properties would fit in very nicely. We'll have to keep our ears open for a rooster crowing as well. Ersatz Harry From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 28 02:58:48 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:58:48 -0000 Subject: Lily's Planned Sacrifice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135320 Alla: > I actually read that quote as completely discarding the idea that > Lily's sacrifice was planned in advance. > > I was actually quite happy to read that, because the idea of Lily > preparing the sacrifice in advance did not sit well with me. > > Din't JKR say that what Lily did counts more simply because she WAS > offered choice to live or die and James was not? > > Lily did more by simply consciously choosing to die for her child. > > That's how I read the interview anyway. > > JMO, > > Alla, a little bit confused. Jen: You aren't the only one, Alla. This story must be so clear in Jo's mind that when she descibes something like Lily's sacrifice, she knows exactly what led up the scene and how it all played out. But for the rest of us, trying to decipher her cryptic words...! Here's what I got from the interview: Lily stepping in front of Harry was different from *any other* death by AK in the series (and in the WW at large it sounds like). She was actually given a chance to sit there for a moment and think, "do I want to live? He really will walk away without killing me." I find that confusing for two reasons: 1) How did Lily *really* know she could trust Voldemort not to kill her if she stepped aside? See, that's somthing Jo knows that we don't. Why would Lily believe a word out of that liar's mouth? But Jo can sit there and feel 100% certain Voldemort was not going to kill Lily if she made the choice to step aside. She knows the reason behind this request/command. 2) Jo also said most moms would make the same choice, and as a mom, it's hard for me to understand how Lily *really* had a choice. Not only was it her baby, but Harry was potentially going to save the WW from Voldemort. Allowing Voldemort to kill him would change wizarding society forever. Where exactly is the choice?? You know, just had another thought. As a mom faced with that situation, it might run through my mind: "What will happen if this maniac doesn't actually plan to kill my son? What if he actually plans to kidnap him and do horrible things or raise him to be a DE?" Well, that might be a possible reason I would choose to stay alive. But to stay alive and find out you were wrong! That would be too painful for words. If it's a choice, it sure ain't much of one. Jen From sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net Thu Jul 28 02:49:52 2005 From: sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net (sonjaartemisia) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:49:52 -0000 Subject: Aragog's venom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135321 Ersatz Harry wrote: > Can someone imagine a property of Aragog's venom that will somehow come into play in Book Seven? aussie: > If snake venom helped bring LV in, could spider venom hurt? > Hurt especially LV's horcruxes, the way the Basalisk's venomous fang destroyed the diary's horcrux. Two possibly related items: 1. The Basalisk was the one creature that the spiders feared above all others. 2. Tom Riddle made a point of getting Aragog out of the Castle before it got very big. (Although it was a convenient scapegoat for the Chamber being opened at the time.) I do expect to see more about Aragog, or the venom, in Book 7. Sonja From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 03:11:52 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius & Harry (was: Which SHIPS will sail? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728031152.56039.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135322 Marcela wrote: ...edited... As a final addition to this, it always struck me as "too rushed and simple" when Jo had Harry accept Sirius Black as a surrogate father in PoA. I mean, I understand that Harry had always dreamed of someone like Sirius to show up in his life and that nobody could surpass the Dursleys' mistreatment, but I thought that Harry was too quick to agree to live with Sirius. After all, he was a perfect stranger and enemy before that Shack night! In addition to this, Jo didn't take advantage of Harry spending half his summer in Grimmauld Place (OoTP) to get to know Sirius much, we the readers were a bit disappointed at the lack of interaction between those two. Juli now: It may seem a bit quick for Harry to agree to live with Sirius, but: 1) Life at Privet Drive pretty much sucks, 2) If James & Lily trust him above others, so should Harry, 3) He spent 12 years in jail for nothing, 4)Only cares about Harry's safety, 5) Is his Godfather, 6)Is his legal Guardian, 7)Remus, his favorite teacher treats him like a brother. These reasons seem enough for me. Sure we'd have liked to see much more between Harry and Sirius while they were at Grimmauld Place, but we don't know everything that happened there, there could have beeen a lot of conversations backstage, conversations Jo didn't write because they gave too much too soon, or just because they weren't important. I remember last year there was a whole thread about why Harry doesn't ask questions about his parents, if you're interested I could look up the number. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 28 03:17:15 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:17:15 -0000 Subject: the potions textbook In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135323 Jim: > > Sorry, Potioncat, but I can't let you get away with that one. It take > serious imagination to come up with a stolen textbook and lost > recollections of Potions tricks that Snape can't remember any more. > Here's the scene: >> Does it speak well for a person when his defenders have to explain > away *absolutely everything* he does, including betraying people to > their deaths? ***Twice?*** Potioncat: Well, that AK knocked me off my feet, but, yeah, here I am defending him again...pretty soon I'll be writing country-western songs. But you don't have to defend him to see my point. Of course, you don't have to agree with it either. But just to clarify: Death Eater or Order Member. Good teacher or bad. I don't think Professor Snape would have kept the book in the cabinet all these years where someone might get it. He wanted the book back when he realised Harry had it. If Snape had been in possession of the book, he would have kept it in his office, not the classroom. There's just too much in it to chance a student getting it. I don't think he "forgot" the potion tricks. I think he was teaching the "improved" potions, whether he told the students or not. I was joking about not having the notes to write a book. But I do not think he's had the book since sometime in 6th or 7th year. I don't think Teen- aged Severus would want his precious spells discovered either...for many reasons...and I don't think he just left it lying around. Now, the book could have been taken/stolen/borrowed and at some time retuned to the potions cabinet. All these years he never knew because when a student came to class without a book, Snape would say, "Too bad." Or perhaps Slughorn had it all these years and never knew about the notes in it. And actually, we may never know how the book got there, the important thing to JKR was that Harry got it. Serious imagination? Thanks! Potioncat From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 03:17:59 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:17:59 -0000 Subject: Snape learned the second part of the prophecy, now watch out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135324 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tbernhard2000" Message 135317 wrote: > Really! I think so. Yep. snip > Or does he perhaps just suspect the second part, based on long > observation of Albus' behaviour toward Scarhead? snip > At any rate, now that Mr Snape knows, or has a very good idea, he's > not going to try to off Scarhead, but rather get Scarhead to >fulfill his destiny, and then move in after Voldemort is dead dead >dead. > "Here, Potter, let me help you with those Horlicks..." > Mwwaaa haaaa haaaa > dan "K": But that *IS IT*! Snape, being the eavesdropper, does know some of the prophecy and he is smart enough to guess at the rest. IMO Snape saw an opportunity to get rid of Dumbledore and he took it. One powerful wizard out of the way and one left to go. Snape doesn't try to kill Harry because he believes Harry will be the one to destroy Voldemort. Snape needs that Scarhead. :) Then Snape will be *The* Dark Lord. As much as I dislike the above it answers so many questions. I've said for a long time now that Snape stands to gain something from the defeat of Voldemort but I didn't necessarily believe it was to be the next feared Dark Lord. Now, not being particularly fond of evil people, I don't know why I believe Snape to still be the most interesting character in the series. I've had about all I can take of love, love, love...wonderful Lily...hero Harry...kids smarter than adults...etc. "K" From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 28 03:20:13 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:20:13 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135325 Ladyljd: > The Cave: What exactly was Dumbledore going through during and > after drinking that potion? Is he reliving his past? Seeing the > future? Lost in a morbid fantasy? And afterward, just what was > so fitting about the defense used (the potion)? Is he truly > dieing or just severely weakened? Jen: I think he was reliving the worst moments of his life, his fears and mistakes. Based on some of the things he said e.g. "It's all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did wrong" and "Don't hurt them....please...it's my fault, hurt me instead." (US, chap. 26, p. 572). Also, JKR said in her interview to read Book 6 carefully if we want to know Dumbledore's boggart. Well, there it is. His biggest fear was making mistakes which led to other people being hurt, tortured or killed. So the potion must magnify a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort of like an extreme dementor attack, then also render a person incapable of doing magic to defend against it. It's a horrible thought. As for whether he's dying or not.....see, this depends on what exactly Snape was up to that night ;-). I see three options: 1) He was dying & calling for Snape to administer an antidote. 2) He may or may not have been dying from the potion, but called for Snape so Snape could administer the AK and appear to still be in league with LV. 3) He wasn't dying, and called for Snape expecting he would need reinforcement of a full-grown powerful wizard b/c of his weakness. There are probably others. I tend to think DD was dying. He said himself Voldemort would not want to immediately kill someone going for the locket so as to find out how they located the cave and worked through the protections. As for what happened next, I'm on the fence at the moment. Jen From snapevictorious at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 03:19:14 2005 From: snapevictorious at gmail.com (snapevictorious) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:19:14 -0000 Subject: Morality of keeping the muggles in the dark in wartime Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135326 Fudge grimaced. "He used giants last time, when he wanted to go for the grand effect," he said. "The Office of Misinformation has been working around the clock, we've got most of the Department for Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures running around Somerset, but we can't find the giant - it's been a disaster." Do y'all really think that it's moral to run around Obliviating when those wizards could be doing something useful? Anyone else notice that? What do you think? Snapevictorious (See other points that bugged me in my rereading at http://www.geocities.com/snapevictorious/ ) From maidne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 03:36:42 2005 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:36:42 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135327 I was just wondering -- does LV have any awareness of the state of his horcruxes once he has created them? Does he know when one is destroyed? It seems like the kind of thing that you would know, but he doesn't seem to have shown any signs of knowing it when the diary and the ring were destroyed. Doesn't it seem a bit reckless to go around putting parts of your soul into containers that you then leave someplace where you can't check on them regularly? I'm also wondering how the horcruxes really work. When you get killed (like LV should have done when the AK hit him) do you have to somehow get the piece of your soul out of the horcrux? Or does just the fact that it's out there not being killed somehow keep you alive? If that's the case, then I guess it is best to hide them randomly, a great distance apart, and never go anywhere near them again. I would opt for the North Pole, South Pole, Sahara Desert, top of Mount Everest, bottom of the Pacific, and on the moon. Surrounded by the obligatory potions and curses, of course. Does any of this make sense, or am I missing something obvious? Susan From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 03:42:31 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:42:31 -0000 Subject: "greater and more terrible than ever he was" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135328 POA page 324 US: "... The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was..." Greater and more terrible? Have we seen this yet? Is it still to come? Sure, he was doing terrible things in HBP, but based on everything we've read so far, I really don't think that this time around has yet been worse than the last time. Obviously, Dumbledore's murder might be considered greater than anything Voldemort had done in the past, but the sheer length of his reign last time and the numbers of murders!! He's only been around 2 years now. Imagine how much worse it will get when chaos and panic break out in the WW now that Dumbledore has died... Allie From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 03:51:42 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Aragog's venom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728035142.47583.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135329 Ersatz Harry ersatzharry at yahoo.com But wasn't it stated somewhere that the spiders considered the basilisk their greatest enemy? If I'm recalling this correctly, then the idea of snake and spider venoms having opposite properties would fit in very nicely. We'll have to keep our ears open for a rooster crowing as well. Juli: No it's the other way around: Spiders fear the basilisk, and the rooster is lethal to the basilisk Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 03:53:01 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:53:01 -0000 Subject: How does one invent a spell? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135330 So here is what I have been wondering for a while: how does one "invent" magic, more specifically spells, charms, curses, etc? I can understand how a potion might be invented, mixing various magical ingredients together, but not spells. Take for example, Snape's sectumsempra. Did he first decide that he wanted a spell that would have that particular effect, and then set out to discover the incantation and wand motions that would create it? Are spells something that already exist and just need the correct words to unleash them? And what, exactly, is the difference between a charm and a spell? I really need that Harry Potter Encyclopedia. :) Allie From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 03:55:42 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:55:42 -0000 Subject: A line of investigation.. Tom's Special places Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135331 One trail of breadcrumbs that I have been wanting to pursue post HBP is the fairly obvious clue regrding where Voldemort *hides* his Horcruxes. Similarly to his relics, his hiding places have somewhat of a pattern to them related to the personal History of Tom himself. The ring was hidden within the home of his Mother, the Diary as always intended to find its way to Hogwarts Chamber of Secrets, and the Locket's hiding place was the cave where Tom as a child felt free to explore his magical powers. Could these steps in the life of Childhood Tom help us to pick locations of other Horcruxes? Each place seems to be a place where Tom learned something about himself, where he discovered or explored something specifically about who he was. Are there other moments in Toms life that we know of that suit this profile too. They might be the places he left his other Horcruxes. Any thoughts? Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 03:56:24 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:56:24 -0000 Subject: Misunderstood Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135332 > wrote: > > -[Cindy asked:] (faulty attribution; should be "Carol wrote:") > > As for the idea that Severus and Lily were Potions partners, which I've been encountering in a lot of posts lately, the only time we see students from other houses working with the Gryffindors is in Herbology, which they have with the Hufflepuffs. We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors working together except in unusual circumstances (e.g., Draco's injured arm and Ron ordered to cut up Draco's roots). We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors as study partners, mostly because of the enmity between the houses but partly because of logistics: they have different common rooms and the only place they could study together would be the library. I can't see Severus, the Half-Blood *Prince,* braving the contempt of his Slytherin classmates by studying with a "Mudblood." > > > zgirnius responded: > First, I agree with you entirely about Snape's abilities. I am > convinced he is a very powerful wizard, and especially gifted in the > academic areas of Dark Arts/DADA and Potions. I don't doubt he > developed the potions improvements and hexes in the book. But I am > not willing to trule out Snape and Lily having been potions partners. > > You base your argument on two premises, the first being that Sluggie > could be exaggerating Lily's abilities. Oh, he would, of course, to > get on Harry's good side. However, we have the fact that he invited > her into the Slug Club whan she was at Hogwarts. Since he's clearly > trying to hook up with the future up and comers of the magic world, > there had to be a reason for this decision on his part. This does not give us any basis to compare the relative merits of Snape and Lily as potions-makers, but it is a reasonable basis to suppose that Lily was the other Potions star in that year. > > Your second argument is that they would not hook up as study partners because of the relative isolation of the two houses. However, it *does* seem that Slytherins and Gryffindors take Potions together, so that Snape and Lily would have seen each other in action on a regular basis. > You could be right, of course! But for those of us who are thinking > the secret reason DD trusted Snape was that he knew Snape had loved > Lily-well, it is a bit of a stretch to think he could have fallen for her so hard without some personal interaction. A schoolboy crush, > sure. But *Love*? Carol responds: As I indicated in a message that I meant to send to you offlist but which accidentally showed up here (and is now deleted), the paragraph you're quoting is actually mine, not Cathy's. (You snipped Cathy's comments, which I was responding to, but kept the attribution, giving Cathy credit for my remarks, which she may not even agree with.) That aside, I don't see enough evidence to support the Severus/Lily SHIP, but I don't have any irrefutable evidence against it, either. My instinct, though, is that James would not have liked "Evans" if he thoutht she liked Snape. And note that the Pensieve incident (in which he called her a mudblood and she retaliated with "Snivellus," occurred at the end of fifth year. The NEWT Potions text that Snape annotated so interestingly is from his sixth year, as we know because it's the same text Harry is using in *his* sixth-year NEWT Potions class.) It seems to me most unlikely that Lily would have chosen Severus as a Potions partner after the Pensieve incident. Most likely she didn't choose James or Sirius, either. Most likely, IMO, worked with one of her Gryffindor girlfriends. It's quite possible that Lily was skilled at Potions (after all, she became Head Girl), but most unlikely that she was a genius like Snape. Maybe we'll see more along these lines, something relating to a potion she used to protect Harry and activate the ancient magic. (I previously speculated that she placed a protective Charm on him (activated by her self-sacrifice), given Ollivander's "nice wand for Charm work" remark in SS/PS and my unwillingness to believe that she was the only mother in the WW ever to die protecting her child from an AK. But given Dumbledore's death, I don't see how we could find this out. In any case, regardless of Lily's skill level, which must have been at least E-level for her to be in NEWT Potions (which she certainly would have had with Severus because the students from all houses who reach NEWT level have it together), I think it's unlikely that this particular Slytherin would be the partner of any Gryffindor. He may even have worked alone, given the failure of any members of his Slytherin gang to come to his defense in the Pensieve scene. (On a side note, we know that Bellatrix is about three years older than Severus and probably most the members of the "Slytherin gang" were also older. Lucius Malfoy, who was probably the original leader, is six years older. So Severus, whom we see becoming increasingly bitter and angry in his potions textbook, reaching the point of creating a Dark spell "for enemies" near the end of the year, seems to be developing into a loner rather than the petted prodigy he must have been when he was part of a gang of older Slytherins. I could cite canon from OoP for most of these speculations, not to prove them but to show that they are at least not baseless, but I've already done so in old posts and don't have time to repeat the effort right now. If Snape indeed loved Lily, which I think is more wishful thinking than canon-based theory, I'm pretty sure that his love was unrequited, and he had already spoiled whatever tiny chance he may have had with her by calling her a "mudblood." (He may well have regretted the outburst, but the damage was done.) I certainly agree that the explanation Dumbledore gave for his trust of Snape is anything but ironclad. It strikes me as valied only if he had some much stronger, much more substantial evidence, if not proof, of Snape's loyalty. Rather than looking to Lily for the answer, I think we need to look at Snape himself. Like Snape, who gives Bellatrix and Voldemort the undeniable fact that you can't apparate out of Hogwarts as his chief reason for not appearing in the graveyard when he was summoned, Dumbledore appears to give perfectly true explanations which are nevertheless not the real reason for someone's actions (usually Snape's). Examples include DD's using Snape's life debt (or whatever it was) as his reason for saving Harry in SS/PS (yes, Steve, I know what you think about this!) and Snape's hatred of James as the reason for abandoning the Occlumency lessons. (I think Snape saved Harry because it was his duty as a teacher and as an enemy of Quirrel!mort and that he stopped the Occlumency lessons because he saw that they were doing more harm than good. These were reasons which he chose, no doubt wisely, not to reveal to Harry. And now the same thing has happened again. The question is how, with Dumbledore dead and Snape vilified by the entire WW (except the DES and LV) as his murderer, we will ever find out that real reason. Snape's unrequited love for Lily is a possible reason for Dumbledore's trust (and Snape's remorse). I find it an unlikely one. And I see no canon evidence for it that can be drawn from Slughorn's sentimental statements about Lily's skill in Potions. The handwriting in Harry's book was Severus's, the spells are Severus's, the annotations on stirring the potions and "stuffing a bezoar down their throat" are Severus's. He's a genius at both Potions (as we should already have known) and at DADA (which many of us never guessed). Lily, in contrast, was a gifted student whom Slughorn remembers with affection and whose death he deeply regrets, for very personal reasons. The fact that these two students had NEWT Potions at the same time is no more evidence for a relationship between them than the fact (I think it's a fact) that Harry has NEWT Potions with Pansy Parkinson. I'm not saying that you're wrong because you may well be right. I'm only saying that I see no convincing evidence and a lot of wishful thinking. Carol From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 03:57:28 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "greater and more terrible than ever he was" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728035728.93278.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135333 allies426 wrote: POA page 324 US: "... The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was..." Greater and more terrible? Have we seen this yet? Is it still to come? Sure, he was doing terrible things in HBP, but based on everything we've read so far, I really don't think that this time around has yet been worse than the last time. Obviously, Dumbledore's murder might be considered greater than anything Voldemort had done in the past, but the sheer length of his reign last time and the numbers of murders!! He's only been around 2 years now. Imagine how much worse it will get when chaos and panic break out in the WW now that Dumbledore has died... Juli: The Death Eaters got INSIDE Hogwarts, that's never happened before, remember Hagrid said that Hogwarts was one of the only safe places... and now, Hogwarts doesn't seem safe anymore. If the DEs got inside once, they may do it again Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phoenixtears at fuse.net Thu Jul 28 04:35:54 2005 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:35:54 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" wrote: > I was just wondering -- does LV have any awareness of the state of > his horcruxes once he has created them? Does he know when one is > destroyed? Answer: DD tells Harry that LV was not aware that the diary horcurx was destroyed, and had to "force the truth out of Lucius..." (HBP p. 508, US ed.), explaining that DD believes LV has been detached so long from these parts of his soul, that "he does not feel as we do." (p.507) > I'm also wondering how the horcruxes really work. When you get > killed (like LV should have done when the AK hit him) do you have to > somehow get the piece of your soul out of the horcrux? Answer: Given that LV was not anticipating the rebound of the AK curse he used against Harry, I suspect LV did not have a horcrux close at hand, yet his spirit or soul was saved from death. Slughorn's description to Riddle of how horcruxes work doesn't include anything about a need for proximity (p. 497), but merely states "even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged." Phoenix (who prefers to go by the shortened version of her name) From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 03:43:51 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:43:51 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135335 > Ladyljd: > > What exactly was Dumbledore going through during and > > after drinking that potion? Is he reliving his past? Seeing the > > future? Lost in a morbid fantasy? > Jen: >I think he was reliving the worst moments of his life, his > fears and mistakes. Based on some of the things he said e.g. "It's > all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did wrong" and "Don't > hurt them....please...it's my fault, hurt me instead." (US, chap. > 26, p. 572). > Also, JKR said in her interview to read Book 6 carefully if we want > to know Dumbledore's boggart. Well, there it is. His biggest fear > was making mistakes which led to other people being hurt, tortured > or killed. So the potion must magnify a person's greatest fears >and guilts, sort of like an extreme dementor attack, then also render a > person incapable of doing magic to defend against it. It's a > horrible thought. This reminds me of what JKR said in her interview, about how Dumbledore, in his unequalled intellignece, power, and wisdom, was really very alone. I sort of pity him: being the most powerful, he is constantly called upon, for advice, for comfort, for counsel, for example, for leadership. He always has to be the one who knows what to do, when to do it, etc. I guess that's the baggage that comes with being the most powerful wizard of the age, but it seems alot even for someone of that caliber. He is, after all, just human. It makes me thnk that Dumbledore is, in a way, anticipating death - as the beginning of a new journey, as respite against the pressures of being #1 all the time. He probably views it as a well-deserved peace and quiet, after years (heck, centuries) of toil and trouble. What is more remarkable, further, is his ability in the midst of these staggering responsibilities to always put on a smile and a cheerful face, to appreciate small things in life such as lemon drops and chamber pots, to not get a big head and stay grounded. I think DD really is dead and gone for good, and JKR has done this not only because it makes perfect sense within the dual context of the plot and the progression of Harry's hero cycle, but also because she wants to make a point, outside the story, about war and life, and the losses necessary to get through it. Anyway, just some random thoughts. - AA From amandasg28 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 03:47:13 2005 From: amandasg28 at aol.com (Amanda) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 03:47:13 -0000 Subject: Question.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135336 This is my first post as a member of this group, and I am thrilled to have found it. I am 29 years old, from Texas, and am extatic to have found a Harry Potter group for adults who want to share their ideas, questions and/or theories. That being said, I am on my second read of HBP, and have stumbled across something that puzzles me. I hope that this hasn't been posted previously (I have read through alot of the messages, but not all). Here goes: I, like many, am on the fence regarding whose side Snape is tuly on. This passage made me re-think the "Snape is loyal to DD" side of the fence: "You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, because he wished me to spy on Albus Dumbledore. You know, I presume, that is was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post?" Snape speaking to Bellatrix on pg 26, American version Maybe someone can refer me to the answer to my question, as I am sure that I am incorrect in my initial thoughts when reading this. I was under the impression that Snape only went to DD after he realized that VD had fallen when attacking the Potters and thought there would be no one to spare him from Azkaban. If he in fact had already approached DD to work at Hogwarts on VD's orders (prior to his assumed 'death') then why did he have to convince DD that he felt remorse for ever being a death eater? If he in fact was already teaching at Hogwart's at the time of VD's 'death', would he not just continue to work there as though he had been on the right side the entire time? From previous books, I thought that Snape had not approached DD for protection and redemption until AFTER VD's fall from power.. have I misinterpretted? Thanks! Amandasg28 From geebsy at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 04:40:43 2005 From: geebsy at yahoo.com (geebsy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:40:43 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis and H/G Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135337 When Harry drank the FF was he imbuded with good-luck for everything? He had been wanting Ginny and low and behold when he gets back from his noctunal visit she is "free" of Dean Thomas. Harry is uncomfortable around Ron and Lavender and yes...they break up too. A conincidence? I think not. His contact with Ginny/Dean and then Lavender allowed the FF to act in his best interest. What is done is done, and cannot be undone Roxane From mkemp at aandr.com.au Thu Jul 28 05:29:31 2005 From: mkemp at aandr.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:29:31 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135338 wrote: > > > I'm also wondering how the horcruxes really work. When you get > > killed (like LV should have done when the AK hit him) do you have > to > somehow get the piece of your soul out of the horcrux? > > Answer: Given that LV was not anticipating the rebound of the AK > curse he used against Harry, I suspect LV did not have a horcrux > close at hand, yet his spirit or soul was saved from death. > Slughorn's description to Riddle of how horcruxes work doesn't > include anything about a need for proximity (p. 497), but merely > states "even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, > for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged." This leads me to ask... If I create 1 horcrux, and I am AK'd, what happens? Is it that one part of my soul has been sent to the next life, but the part that is in the horcrux takes its place - leaving me alive with 1/2 a soul (as I was before) but with no remaining horcrux? In other words - me and my horcrux - I get AK's twice, I am a goner. ---- OR ---- Is it - as long as there is a Horcrux, you cant kill me. The first AK destroys the soul that is in me, and I am left soulless but alive. Then you AK me over and over but I don't die because the remaining part of my soul isn't in me to be AK'd. =================== The reason I ask, is because it I assume it is case 1. If it were case 2, and Voldy lost his soul in the baby Harry AK backfire, then all harry has to do to destroy him is find and destroy the horcruxes - meaning no need to confront the man himself. But if it is case 1, are we looking for too many horcruxes? - we start with 7 parts (one inside Voldy). He destroys the first himself with the backfire on the baby Harry. The second is destroyed in Riddle's Diary. The third in the Gaunt ring. The fourth in Slytherins Locket. The Fifth in Nagini. The Sixth in Hufflepuffs goblet. And... the seventh we don't need because it left whatever it was in and returned to Voldy after his portion was destroyed in the initial AK. Pickle Jimmy - now even more confused than ever. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 05:56:33 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:56:33 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy" wrote: > This leads me to ask... > If I create 1 horcrux, and I am AK'd, what happens? > > Is it that one part of my soul has been sent to the next life, but > the part that is in the horcrux takes its place - leaving me alive > with 1/2 a soul (as I was before) but with no remaining horcrux? > > In other words - me and my horcrux - I get AK's twice, I am a goner. > > ---- OR ---- > > Is it - as long as there is a Horcrux, you cant kill me. The first AK > destroys the soul that is in me, and I am left soulless but alive. > Then you AK me over and over but I don't die because the remaining > part of my soul isn't in me to be AK'd. > > Pickle Jimmy - now even more confused than ever. Now me: The AK doesn't destroy the soul that is in your body, you can't even die a natural death. As long as you have a horcrux somewhere out there, you are immortal. If the horcrux is destroyed, then the AK can kill you, or die of old age, whichever comes first. *Rizza* From djklaugh at comcast.net Thu Jul 28 05:27:28 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:27:28 -0000 Subject: Another possible reason Snape killed DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135340 Gail wrote: "Several posters have pointed out how odd it is that DD pleads with Snape at the end (the implication being that he's pleading for his life.) I agree that he may indeed be pleading for Snape to kill him - - that would be much more in character. But why? Here's my theory: Remember that DD insists Harry fetch Snape when he is ill from the potion, not Madame P. or anyone else. Could it be that there is a secret only he and Snape share? Keep in mind how strongly DD insists that Harry obey him without question on their outing to the cave, even if it should mean leaving DD in danger. What if he had extracted a similar promise from Snape? What if the potion DD drank had put the horocrux into him, DD? When he said "Kill me" in his stupor, it was because he knew this? And that Snape killed him because it was the only way to kill the horocrux?" Deb writes: I agree that DD tells Snape to kill him, and I agree that they probably shared many secrets. But what motivation would DD have at that moment to tell (and IMO DD is telling him, as he has on other occasions to "Please get on with it, do what I told you to do". Pleading, well maybe a little, but he trusts Snape and yes, I think they have an agreement or two or three between them) Snape to kill him? I think it is related to the cave, the lake, the liquid DD drinks... and to what DD strongly believes is worse than death. My guess would be that DD thinks that a living death... like a Inferi, zombie, or someother entity that is dead but kept animated to do the bidding of a Dark Lord..... would be much worse than death! There has been some speculation about what was in that bowl ... what if it was the potion, or first part of a spell, that creates Inferi... "corpses ... dead bodies that have been bewitched to do a Dark Lords bidding."... as DD tells Harry on their trip to Slughorn's house. So what if the liquid is the Draught of Living Death... mentioned several times in previous books. DD tells Harry it won't immediately kill him, and says once back at Hogwarts that he has come back "after a fashion". Or if not the potion in the bowl then the water in the lake... DD tells Harry 3 times not to touch the water.... perhaps his warning is more than just not wanting to "wake up" what dwells beneath the surface of that vast lake. For it seems to me that under this lake dwells LV's army.... an army of Inferi. The corpses of most of the people he (and maybe the DEs) have murdered or caused to disappear during his reign of terror. Too bad Harry wasn't carrying a back pack and some bottled water... But he just splashes the water from the lake onto DD's face .... and perhaps DD hopes that that will not activate the Inferi curse... So Harry gets DD back to Hogsmead and DD wants Snape right away for his superior knowledge of the Dark Arts.... and Potions. I suspect he is hoping, or knows, that Snape has an antidote to whatever it was that he drank... or is carrying a bezaor(though Snape said in the very first Potions class that bezaors will protect one from "most poisons"... so maybe it won't work on all poisons). But I also suspect that there is a time component... that the antidote must be given quickly... and he does not get to Snape fast enough ... so when he is lying there on the tower, and Snape comes through the door, the only thing left to save DD from becoming one of LV's Inferi is for Snape to kill him. And Snape, having promised to save DD from this terrible fate, is angry beyond measure, that this has come to pass ... and resolute in his determination to save DD from a fate worse than death. Deb From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 06:02:34 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:02:34 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis and H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "geebsy" wrote: > When Harry drank the FF was he imbuded with good-luck for everything? > He had been wanting Ginny and low and behold when he gets back from > his noctunal visit she is "free" of Dean Thomas. Harry is > uncomfortable around Ron and Lavender and yes...they break up too. A > conincidence? I think not. His contact with Ginny/Dean and then > Lavender allowed the FF to act in his best interest. What is done is > done, and cannot be undone > > Roxane Now me: The amount of Felix Flicis Harry was given by Slughorn, was a only a 24 hours worth. He drank enough to get information out of Slughorn, which only lasted a few hours, then wore off. Felix was completely out of his system by the time he arrived to the portrait of the Fat Lady, after leaving Slughorn and Hagrid. *Rizza* From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 06:03:21 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:03:21 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) Message-ID: <219.5a975b7.3019cf29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135342 Sherry now: Do we really know that Dumbledore has confided so much to Snape? What do we actually know that he's confided about the order, or Harry, or horcruxes or anything. Just because Dumbledore trusts Snape's reasons for returning, trusts him individually, doesn't mean he trusts him with tons of information. Dumbledore even makes Harry promise not to tell anyone but Ron and Hermione about the horcruxes. Dumbledore seems to be the kind of general who works on the need to know basis. i grant you that by reading mostly the audio books, I probably miss some details, but is there actually canon to show that Dumbledore trusts Snape with a lot of information? After all, if Snape is indeed Dumbledore's spy, the less info he has about DD's plans and theories, the safer the good side is. You wouldn't want your spy to have a lot of information that could be tortured out of him, if he gets caught. sherry Julie responds: You, Nora and Lupinlore make a good point. We don't really know how much DD has told Snape. Of course, he has to tell Snape some things, and Snape is an accomplished Occlumens or he'd be long dead. But DD does seem to share information on a need to know basis, which explains why no one else knows his "ironclad" reason for trusting Snape. I do think though, that we see more instances where DD sharing information/plotting with Snape than with anyone else in the books. "You know what you must do."--CoS, implies that they have discussed Snape's activities. The Occlumency, and the fact that Snape delivered DD's orders to Grimmauld Place. The overheard conversation in HBP. None of these mean DD is confiding everything, or even most things, in Snape. But he is sharing enough information with Snape that it implies a great amount of trust between them, leaving DD looking pretty bad if that trust has been misplaced. Regarding DD telling Harry only to share information on the Horcruxes with Ron and Hermoine, he certainly wouldn't have to mention Snape here, should Snape know about them. It's not like Harry is even in the same room as Snape if he can help it! But speaking of the horcruxes, when DD nearly died from the ring horcrux, he mentions that only Snape's quick action saved him. Could Snape have saved DD if he didn't know exactly what kind of curse/spell he was counteracting? It seems kind of unlikely, which is a clue that Snape does know about the horcruxes... Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abha_j at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 05:53:45 2005 From: abha_j at yahoo.com (abha_j) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 05:53:45 -0000 Subject: Magic, Timelines, Computers, and Search Engines (was: Did R.A.B. drink the Kool-Aid?) In-Reply-To: <667886976.20050727184535@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135343 Dave wrote: > I have to admit, though, that as a computer programmer I've always > been intrigued at the idea of applying programming concepts to magic. > (I'm actually working on a novel with that sub-theme.) For example, I > think Crouch Jr's tampering with the Goblet of Fire and the Triwizard > Portkey both constituted a magical "reprogramming" of those objects. > > Maybe this is the mysterious unmentioned class from which comes the > missing twelfth O.W.L.: Magical Programming! Hi Dave, I am a computer programmer too, and have often been intrigued about the connection between magic and programming. So many magical things seem to me to be advanced programs which connect little pieces of logic ( e.g. different sounds in case of spells) to form really advanced stuff. It's just like any complex piece of software is built upon simple libraries. It's just that the wizards have magical libraries at their disposal (u have to be genetically programmed to have them) so that its possible for them to use magic and maybe advance to next levels from there. Even then, some wizards use only basic stuff, others like Snape/marauders/Wealey twins devise new spells - programming new words/objects to perform actions hitherto unprogrammed. All the Best for the novel, hope to read it some time, Abha From eva_josie87 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 06:30:54 2005 From: eva_josie87 at yahoo.com (eva_josie87) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:30:54 -0000 Subject: Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135344 long time lurker, sorry if this has been mentioned before I was just re-reading HBP and I noticed Neville talking about his new wand: (pg 137, american version) "cherry and unicorn hair," he said proudly. "We think it was one of the last Ollivander ever sold, he vanished next day..." Do you think this is significant that he vanished the next day after selling that wand? I'm not good at the thinking up theories thing, but maybe Ollivander figured out that Neville could've been Harry Potter, the wand shot similar sparks or some such thing when Neville tested it. I had a thought maybe Harry tested the same wand in the first book, but no... Did anyone else notice this? Am I just grasping at straws? eva_josie87 From azriona at juno.com Thu Jul 28 07:05:39 2005 From: azriona at juno.com (Sharon) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:39 -0000 Subject: Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135345 Eva_josie said: > Do you think this is significant that he [Ollivander] vanished the next day after > selling that wand? I'm not good at the thinking up theories thing, > but maybe Ollivander figured out that Neville could've been Harry > Potter, the wand shot similar sparks or some such thing when Neville > tested it. I don't think so, because if JKR had really wanted to tie Harry, Voldy and Neville together, she would have given Neville a wand using Fawkes's last tail feather as the core. (I believe Fawkes lost a tail feather at the end of OotP, though I cannot at this time find the correct scene.) --azriona From kempermentor at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 07:32:51 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:32:51 -0000 Subject: How does one invent a spell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135346 Allie wrote: > So here is what I have been wondering for a while: how does > one "invent" magic, more specifically spells, charms, curses, etc? I > can understand how a potion might be invented, mixing various magical > ingredients together, but not spells. > > Take for example, Snape's sectumsempra. Did he first decide that he > wanted a spell that would have that particular effect, and then set out > to discover the incantation and wand motions that would create it? Are > spells something that already exist and just need the correct words to > unleash them? And what, exactly, is the difference between a charm and > a spell? Kemper now: I've read other people's comments on the difference between spell and charm, but for the beer in me, I can't remember.... As far as Snape's ingenuity, Yes, I think his intention of the outcome came prior to the incantation/wand movement. Personally, I think creating a spell would be easier than creating a potion: 1. you have an intention. 2. you research latin based words of power, you combine a few and you test on rats or wormtails. Or it could be something else entirely. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 07:43:11 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:43:11 -0000 Subject: Question.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135347 > Amandasg28 wrote: "You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, because he wished me to spy on Albus Dumbledore. You know, I presume, that is was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post?" Snape speaking to Bellatrix on pg 26, American version Maybe someone can refer me to the answer to my question, as I am sure that I am incorrect in my initial thoughts when reading this. I was under the impression that Snape only went to DD after he realized that VD had fallen when attacking the Potters and thought there would be no one to spare him from Azkaban. If he in fact had already approached DD to work at Hogwarts on VD's orders (prior to his assumed 'death') then why did he have to convince DD that he felt remorse for ever being a death eater? If he in fact was already teaching at Hogwart's at the time of VD's 'death', would he not just continue to work there as though he had been on the right side the entire time? From previous books, I thought that Snape had not approached DD for protection and redemption until AFTER VD's fall from power.. have I misinterpretted? Valky: I have come across this one just a few times now and its taken me a couple of rereads to logically plot out a scenario that fits. But I think I have one, based on the canon that I can think of at the moment (If I have negelected a canon point according to anyone please let me know) The Scenario plays this way: It comes to the attention of Voldemort that his young clever DE Severus Snape has the affections of his one greatest obstacle in his plan. Dumbledore. Either by or due to Severus having been recruited during his Hogwarts school years, (Not unlike Draco) or by him having only very recently graduated and having been spied by some other DE's at one time being courted to the side of light by Dumbledore (again not unlike Draco Malfoy). Dumbledore of course has never given up on his mission to protect those he cares about from being enslaved by Lord Voldemort, and Voldemort himself is well aware of this. So he concocts a risky plan to get a Death Eater close enough to spy on Dumbledore and perhaps eventually kill him if the opportunity so arises when this DE becomes magically powerful enough. Taking advantage of an opportunity that he percieves to get someone into Hogwarts and kill a few birds with one stone, he sends Severus Snape to tell Dumbledore something like "You were right, I have a choice not to be The Dark Lords slave and will you please keep your promise to help and protect me now that I have left him." Voldemort knows he is risking a DE that might be turned by Dumbledore back to the light, he is aware that Dumbledores "Love" magic is powerful, but Dumbledore is standing in the way of *everything* he's been trying to do, he can't get his Ravenclaw or Gryffindor objects without someone in Hogwarts. So Snape gets his place in Hogwarts and after some sneaky, clever moves he steals the Ravenclaw object that Voldemort desired. The job is half done, and Snape is well on his way to becoming Voldemorts firm favourite DE. Snape goes after the Gryffindor object with renewed vigour.. But then something happens, quietly in the background Dumbledore cleverly devises a way to make Severus aware the *he knows he's after a Gryffindor object for Voldemort*. Severus is worried, he isn't getting closer to the Gryffindor object and he can't understand how DD is stopping him doing it. It goes on for a while like this (a year perhaps) and Sevvie is virtually unable to achieve anything for Voldie so he keeps his head down and behaves himself till things settle all the while getting a little closer to Dumbledore and recieving regular allocution from Dumbledore about choice and choosing, then he starts marking DD's moves again preparing to go for the object a second time. Then one night while he is spying on Dumbledore he hears something remarkable.. something about the Dark Lord and someone defeating him born in July etc etc. He runs straight to Voldemort with the news that he knows. Voldie sits on this for a half hour and decides his next move. He tells Snape what it is, and then something occurs to him. (According to which side of the fence you are on this thing that occurs to SS is either that Dumbledore was right about Voldemort and he is wracked with guilt for his misdeeds, or it is that he has realised what he needs to tell DD to earn back his trust.) In either case Snape runs back to DD and tells his story. For close to the next whole year Snape is acting as a double agent, working for (or appearing to work for depending on your opinion) Dumbledore as well as Voldemort. Snape was in the employ of Voldie on the night of the prophecy. He told DD his story after Voldemort had decided to kill the Potters. He was working at Hogwarts on Voldies orders beforehand etc etc any Questions? or disagreements.. Valky From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Jul 28 07:43:56 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:43:56 -0000 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135348 > As for the mix of love/evil causing the explosion - that could be, > though if that were the case, wouldn't there have been an explosion > when LV possessed Harry in the MoM? Or does there need to be the > catalyst of a destructive spell like an AK? This is getting > complicated, and I have a feeling the answer is simpler, somehow. > > All in all, good stuff to think on, regardless. More, more! > > > Hokus The problem with my theory is that both Dumbledore (in the books) and JKR (in interviews) refer to it as a backfired killing curse. This would rather shoot down the 'intentional horcrux' angle. However, there is too much evidence that Harry IS a horcrux. It really is the only thing that explains much of his behaviour. That could leave us with 'unintentional horcrux', but is there any evidence that an AK would cause a piece of your soul to be left behind to then enter Harry. There are two possibilities; 1) Killing someone automatically splits the soul (i.e. killing James) but if a Horcrux isn't used, then the soul eventually rejoins the whole being. So a spare piece of soul was floating around when Harry was AK'ed. Then Harry was the only 'whole being' left for the soul to reenter! 2) Unhappy people turn into ghosts (Nick's chat at the end of OOTP). Perhaps the ghost is actually a piece of soul left behind! It does get complicated by Voldemort's Horcruxes and whether a 'ghost soul' could be created in this situation, and then if it was, whether it would enter another being. So, as yet, I have not come up with a theory that does completely explain this. Am convinced Harry is a Horceux though!! Brothergib From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Thu Jul 28 07:49:03 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:49:03 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School In-Reply-To: <20050727174848.86764.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135349 > > Cali writes: > Hmmmm . . . now you have me wondering . . . Nagini COULD be a red herring. But, DD seemed fairly sure when he spoke of it to Harry. So, could there be a JOINT Gryffindor/Ravenclaw item? Meaning - do you think that MAYBE Godric and Rowena hooked up at some point in time? This is way out of left field, but it would continue the trend of having Voldemort using something from each house for a horcrux. A child, maybe? Some decendent of BOTH houses? No, I think the Gryffindor/Ravenclaw question is simply there so that in book 7, Harry will not be able to figure out what the final Horcrux is. Most likely is that Hermione will suddenley figure our that it is Harry! He will think he has to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort - I'm sure this won't be the case though (maybe Snape will help - put a stopper in death!!). Haven't completely given up on the idea that the 7th Horcrux isn't made yet though!! Brothergib From cathrian at spray.no Thu Jul 28 07:49:57 2005 From: cathrian at spray.no (magicavontryll) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:49:57 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Aslan of Narnia and magical portraits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135350 I think there are many similarities between the death of DD and Aslan, the great lion of Narnia, who is killed by the evil witch on the stone table in "The lion, The witch and The wardrobe". The lion also pleads with the witch to kill him, so that he can return stronger and more magical than ever. Same thing with the death of Gandalf in LOTR. Even though DD doesn't return from the dead, someone has surely painted his portrait to go with the paintings of the past head masters of Hogwarts. Won't that mean that he will be able to give Harry advises through his portrait, even for the future? It seems to me that the other portraits we have met in the books have quite a lot of carachter... How do these magical portraits work, has anyone discussed this before? Must they be painted by a special artist while the person is still alive, maybe leaving some of his or hers sole in the portrait through a mini-horcrux? When reading of the woman Tom Riddle robbed for her antique treasures I immidiately thought of the portrait of the Fat Lady guarding the Gryffindor's common room, are they the same lady? They are both fat and pink... Magica From two_flower2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 07:54:06 2005 From: two_flower2 at yahoo.com (two_flower2) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:54:06 -0000 Subject: Random stuff: TR taking children to the cave, RAB guess and D-dore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135351 Hi there, another long-time lurker... I am very interested in the epizode, when young Tom Riddle took two children to the infamous cave and "terrorized" them there. Terrorized? They were mightily spooked out after going there. I wonder what exactly Tom scared them with so much. His own evil magic? Or maybe, the creepy lake already was there? Were at least some of the Inferi there? And if so, who created the whole set-up? Another random notice: RAB might also stand for Amelia Bones. And finally, the compulsory opinion on Dumbedore's death. I like two opposite theories :) 1) If D-dore really dead, I wonder if the evil potion might have made his mind open for reading by Voldemort. Remember, how he said that the potion would let the one who drunk it live long enough to be interrogated by V-mort. Maybe, D-dore wanted to be speedily killed to avoid Legilimency "interrogation" and letting V-mort know all his numerous secrets... 2) But I wonder if D-dore might be still alive... because how can eyeglasses can still be on somebody's nose after a fall from a very tall tower? It's possible only if a person gently floats from the tower face upwards... Cheers, Two2 From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 08:15:12 2005 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:15:12 -0000 Subject: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > >> However, there is too much evidence that Harry IS a horcrux. It > really is the only thing that explains much of his behaviour. > > That could leave us with 'unintentional horcrux', but is there any > evidence that an AK would cause a piece of your soul to be left > behind to then enter Harry. There are two possibilities; > 1) Killing someone automatically splits the soul (i.e. killing James) > but if a Horcrux isn't used, then the soul eventually rejoins the > whole being. So a spare piece of soul was floating around when Harry > was AK'ed. > > Brothergib Hi Brothergib, I see whereyou're going with this, though cannon would suggest otherwise. Yes killing does split the soul, but in order to create a horcrux you have to perform a spell. It says in one of the books (I don't remember which), that after tryingto kill Harry, Voldemort left Godric's Hollow. I also think if Harry did have a piece of Voldemorts soul in him, he wouldn't be anywhere near as caring as he is. Voldemort lacks a conscience, Harry has one. Harry's friends are the most important people in his life, as far as Voldemort is concerned, he doesn't nor want any friends. In OotP Voldemort posesses Harry's mind, causing him excruciating pain. Imagine, if he was a part of him twenty-four hours a day. In my mind, he'd have a split personality- sometimes evil, sometimes, well, Harry. *Rizza* From littleleah at handbag.com Thu Jul 28 08:24:42 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:24:42 -0000 Subject: Your take on the locket? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135353 Potioncat wrote: >Someone did switch the fake-horcrux-locket with the genuine horcrux >prior to its being placed in the cave. So here's one possibility: >RAB is given the task by LV to place the Locket in a cave. RAB >understands what the Locket is and has time to switch it, writing a >note to go into the fake!horcrux and hiding the real one somewhere >else. RAB and whoever else LV assigned, took the fake!horcrux to the >cave, no spells/curses/hexes were yet in place. They dropped the >fake!horcrux into the basin and one of two things happened. >1) They then initiated the security spells themselves, and reported >back to LV that the deed was done. In this case, RAB goes home. >He/she may have been killed later. >OR >2) As soon as the fake!horcrux landed in the basin, the security >spells were activated by magic LV had put into place and the >treasure hiders, just like unfortunate pirates of yore, were >killed. RAB is in the lake. I like this idea, particularly the second scenario. However, I am bothered by the idea that LV would trust a horcrux to one of his deatheaters, unless of course, RAB had taken an Unbreakable Vow to carry out LV's wishes. Or perhaps LV just doesn't think in terms of disobedience. On the same sort of theme, there are a few things that bother me: (i) Why was the locket surrounded by all these Indiana Jones type defences, when the diary appears to have been simply knocking around at Malfoy Manor for years? If RAB is Regulus, was he entrusted with the diary too, and did Lucius pick it up at a family tea at 12GP? (ii) In COS, DiaryTom tells Harry the diary was created by Tom Riddle so that the Chamber could one day be reopened. Assuming JKR misleads but does not lie, was the creation of DiaryTom a seperate act from the creation of the horcrux, and VM then used it as a horcrux ,or was this always a dual purpose artifact? Presumably LV/Tom Riddle always intended the diary to be used by someone other than himself to reopen the chamber, because he knew how to do it without the diary's help. So this returns to my earlier point that LV seems to treat his horcruxes, with the exception of the locket, in a rather cavalier way. (iii)On a separate note, I wonder if LV created the 'locket potion' himself, or whether he used an expert in the DEs, and whose memory DD is therefore channelling when he drinks. Leah From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 09:10:20 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:10:20 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135354 Amandasg28 wrote: >> I was under the impression that Snape only went to DD after he realized that VD had fallen when attacking the Potters and thought there would be no one to spare him from Azkaban. << HunterGreen: (welcome to the list Amanda (o; ) He defected (or pretended to defect) to Dumbledore's side before Voldemort's fall, which would be, I assume, part of the reason Dumbledore believed him. >>> "I have given evidence already on this matter," [Dumbledore] said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side *before* Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." >>> [GoF, chpt 30; emphasis mine] Amandasg28: >> If he in fact had already approached DD to work at Hogwarts on VD's orders (prior to his assumed 'death') then why did he have to convince DD that he felt remorse for ever being a death eater? << HunterGreen: Perhaps because Dumbledore knew he would a death-eater (or a suspected one) the same way he knew about Draco, for example, and would suspect a trap. He wouldn't just immediately let a former DE teach without being sure that they were reformed. (At least from his point of view....he could have been wrong). In order for Voldemort's plan to work (to get a DE in as a teacher to spy on Voldemort) they had to pretend to have reformed. Hmm, but this is starting to confuse me a bit. Was it Snape's or Voldemort's idea to go to Dumbledore? Because, before HBP, my theory had been that something horrible had happened in the course of Snape's DE duties that made him change his mind about everything and he left and ran to Dumbledore where he either worked as a spy or went under Dumbledore's protection. This theory seems to still work, except for one bit. In OotP, Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years, which would be since Harry was about one. If he started at the beginning of the term, that would have been about two months before Voldemort's fall. Voldemort, at that point, would have been plotting and planning a long time about the prophecy (since it was made over a year before), and would have been planning which boy to murder (if it was, as Dumbledore says, a choice, rather than going for the boy he could find), if Snape got cold feet about that, than right then would have made sense for him to want to switch sides. EXCEPT, according to Snape (and he implies that this is easy-to-confirm knowledge among DEs), he went there on *Voldemort's* orders, not by his own decision. Sooo....what happened? Had he already decided to change sides and then the teaching assignment was just a lucky concidence ("Great! Thank you Dark Lord, I had wanted to quit anyway! I'll just go tell your biggest enemy, at this moment, all your secrets!")? Had he already defected, in secret, and him and Dumbledore somehow slyly gave Voldemort the idea of sending Snape to Hogwarts? Or did he do as Voldemort asked, then decide to *actually* defect as he was pretending to? (which seems like it would make Dumbledore have trouble believing him). Or was the whole defecting thing *only* an act, (as I believe), and he was never on Dumbledore's side while Voldemort was still alive? Amandasg28: >> If he in fact was already teaching at Hogwart's at the time of VD's 'death', would he not just continue to work there as though he had been on the right side the entire time? << HunterGreen: It appears thats exactly what he did, and that's what he told Bellatrix. Whether he was good or evil when he started teaching, he certainly decided it was in his best interest to stay there. Now that Voldemort is dead he's either using it as a way to keep Voldemort from killing him ("hey, i'm a *spy*."), or using it as a shield against prison. He's well placed for Voldemort to use him, and he's well placed for Dumbledore to use him. Amandasg28: >> From previous books, I thought that Snape had not approached DD for protection and redemption until AFTER VD's fall from power.. have I misinterpretted? << HunterGreen: You must have. As I said above, I doubt Dumbledore would be offering the guy any favors after Voldemort appeared to be dead (or at least no longer a threat). Turning for help then would just be a plea to stay out of prison. Turning when Voldemort is still strong and powerful and there's no obvious reason why he wouldn't continue to be means a lot more. The question, though, is whether Snape was telling the truth when he went to Dumbledore. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From josturgess at eircom.net Thu Jul 28 10:09:24 2005 From: josturgess at eircom.net (mooseming) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:09:24 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > Hmm, but this is starting to confuse me a bit. Was it Snape's or > Voldemort's idea to go to Dumbledore? Because, before HBP, my theory > had been that something horrible had happened in the course of > Snape's DE duties that made him change his mind about everything and > he left and ran to Dumbledore where he either worked as a spy or went > under Dumbledore's protection. This theory seems to still work, > except for one bit. > In OotP, Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 > years, which would be since Harry was about one. If he started at the > beginning of the term, that would have been about two months before > Voldemort's fall. Voldemort, at that point, would have been plotting > and planning a long time about the prophecy (since it was made over a > year before), and would have been planning which boy to murder (if it > was, as Dumbledore says, a choice, rather than going for the boy he > could find), if Snape got cold feet about that, than right then would > have made sense for him to want to switch sides. EXCEPT, according to > Snape (and he implies that this is easy-to-confirm knowledge among > DEs), he went there on *Voldemort's* orders, not by his own decision. > > Sooo....what happened? Had he already decided to change sides and > then the teaching assignment was just a lucky concidence ("Great! > Thank you Dark Lord, I had wanted to quit anyway! I'll just go tell > your biggest enemy, at this moment, all your secrets!")? Had he > already defected, in secret, and him and Dumbledore somehow slyly > gave Voldemort the idea of sending Snape to Hogwarts? Or did he do as > Voldemort asked, then decide to *actually* defect as he was > pretending to? (which seems like it would make Dumbledore have > trouble believing him). Or was the whole defecting thing *only* an > act, (as I believe), and he was never on Dumbledore's side while > Voldemort was still alive? > > > > > -Rebecca / HunterGreen The timeline for Snape's change of heart, the protection of GH and Voldy's attack on same is difficult to explain in terms of good! Snape but I've come up with a model. The problems are: Why did Voldy wait so long to attack after the prophecy? Why didn't the Potters go into hiding immediately? Why was the secret keeper thingy only activated a week before Voldy's attack? Why did DD accept Snape as a teacher when he did? Essentially this timeline is based on a completely non canon assumption that the *only* record of births is kept at Hogwarts. Plus the entirely cannon justified second spy Wormtail known from POA to have been operating for a year. After the prophecy Voldy has to wait to see who fit's the criteria, even if he identifies one candidate he cannot be sure it is the *only* candidate (given the portion Snape overhears they can't even identify gender). So he needs to identify all potentials and rule some out, or attack multiples simultaneously. Gathering information on the ground would be time consuming and also would never be conclusive (there may always remain another yet to be identified). This means he needs to get into Hogwarts to access the complete record of births The Potters/Longbottoms don't go into hiding precisely because this would mark Harry/Neville as a/the prophecy boy. So timeline is: Snape overhears prophecy Tells Voldy Voldy needs to identify who is prophecy boy Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes DETraitor!Snape Snape joins DD becomes double agent Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts (possibly at Snape's suggestion) Snape fails to get info from Hogwarts citing DD mistrust as reason Voldy sends in Wormtail to get info, he is successful Snape learns of Voldy update, tips off DD Secret keeper made Secret keeper blabs Snape goes to GH to warn Potters but James doesn't believe him ('You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black' Snape in POA) Harry + Voldy = Vapour!Mort Snape remains at Hogwarts Voldy reborn Snape pays a visit and has a lot of explaining to do, but he is skilled in Occlumency and there's an antidote to Veritaserum. So he could pull it off. Snape reactivated as double agent. Regards Jo I may be as woefully wrong as Humphrey Belcher, who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldron. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 10:47:01 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:47:01 -0000 Subject: A line of investigation.. Tom's Special places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135356 Valky wrote: One trail of breadcrumbs that I have been wanting to pursue post HBP is the fairly obvious clue regrding where Voldemort *hides* his Horcruxes. Similarly to his relics, his hiding places have somewhat of a pattern to them related to the personal History of Tom himself. The ring was hidden within the home of his Mother, the Diary as always intended to find its way to Hogwarts Chamber of Secrets, and the Locket's hiding place was the cave where Tom as a child felt free to explore his magical powers. Could these steps in the life of Childhood Tom help us to pick locations of other Horcruxes? Each place seems to be a place where Tom learned something about himself, where he discovered or explored something specifically about who he was. Are there other moments in Toms life that we know of that suit this profile too. They might be the places he left his other Horcruxes. vmonte: You know maybe Voldemort was planning on leaving one of his horcruxes at Godric's Hollow. Did the explosion there somehow release the horcrux into Harry? Was Snape carrying it? How about his Father's house or the graveyard he's buried in? The CoS might also be a good place. Vivian From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 28 11:03:52 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:03:52 -0400 Subject: Question.. Message-ID: <006601c59364$0ab78860$aac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135357 Amandasg28 asked: >Maybe someone can refer me to the answer to my question, as I am sure that I am incorrect in my initial thoughts when reading this. I was under the impression that Snape only went to DD after he realized that VD had fallen when attacking the Potters and thought there would be no one to spare him from Azkaban. CathyD now: "Dumbledore had got to his feet, 'I have given evidence already on this matter.' he said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." (GF pg 513 Can Ed) I think the confusion comes in with HBP. While in the hospital wing, near the end of the book, Harry is saying why DD believes Snape "'I know,' said Harry, and they all turned to stare at him. 'Snape passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn't realised what he was doing, he was really sorry he'd done it, sorry that they were dead.' " If you read the chapter 'The Seer Overheard" Dumbledore never says Snape was sorry that Lily and James were dead, but that he was sorry he passed the information that led Voldemort to hunt down people that Snape knew. In my opinion, when Snape found out what LV was going to do with the prophecy information, he went straight to Dumbledore and Dumbledore set him up as a spy for the Order of the Phoenix. Snape still had that debt to James, remember. James saved his life. Being saved from death by an 'enemy' seems to produce this kind of debt. Snape went to Dumbledore to - hopefully - repay that debt, believing if he told DD then DD could stop the Potters being murdered. DD tried to prevent the Potter murders by setting up the Fidelius Charm. It all went pear-shaped when the Potters chose Peter, at Sirus' suggestion, as the Secret Keeper. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 11:10:21 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:10:21 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis and H/G In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135358 Roxane asked: "When Harry drank the FF was he imbuded with good-luck for everything? He had been wanting Ginny and low and behold when he gets back from his noctunal visit she is "free" of Dean Thomas. Harry is uncomfortable around Ron and Lavender and yes...they break up too. A conincidence? I think not. His contact with Ginny/Dean and then Lavender allowed the FF to act in his best interest. What is done is done, and cannot be undone" *Rizza* answered: "The amount of Felix Flicis Harry was given by Slughorn, was a only a 24 hours worth. He drank enough to get information out of Slughorn, which only lasted a few hours, then wore off. Felix was completely out of his system by the time he arrived to the portrait of the Fat Lady, after leaving Slughorn and Hagrid." Del counters: Yes, but both Ron/Lavender and Dean/Ginny broke up *right after* Harry took the Felix Felicis. Here are the quotes (British Ed.) --- p.447: the Trio is in the boys' dormitory, Harry takes some FF, and then... "(Harry) pulled the Invisibility Cloak over his head and set off down the stairs, Ron and Hermione hurrying along behind him. At the foot of the stairs Harry slid through the open door. 'What were you doing up there with *her*?' shrieked Lavender Brown, staring right through Harry at Ron and Hermione emerging together from the boys' dormitories. Harry heard Ron spluttering behind him as he darted accross the room away from them. Getting through the portrait hole was simple; as he approached it, Ginny and Dean came through it and Harry was able to slip between them. As he did so, he brushed accidentally against Ginny. '*Don't* push me, please, Dean,' she said, sounding annoyed. 'You're always doing that, I can get through perfectly well on my own...' The portrait swung closed behind Harry, but not before he had heard Dean make an angry retort..." --- And then, the very next day (p.481): "'We split up,' (Ron) told Harry out of the corner of his mouth. 'Last night. When she saw me coming out of the dormitory with Hermione. Obviously she couldn't see you, so she thought it had just been the two of us.' 'Ah.' said Harry. 'Well, you don't mind it's over, do you?' 'No,' Ron admitted. 'It was pretty bad while she was yelling, but at least I didn't have to finish it.' 'Coward,' said Hermione, though she looked amused. 'Well, it was a bad night for romance all round. Ginny and Dean split up too, Harry.' Harry thought there was a rather knowing look in her eye as she told him that, but she could not possibly know that his insides were suddenly dancing the conga: keeping his face as immobile and his voice as indifferent as he could, he asked, 'How come?' 'Oh, something really silly... she said he was always trying to help her through the portrait hole, like she couldn't climb in herself... but they've been a bit rocky for ages.'" --- So it is very clear that both couples split right after Harry took the Potion AND that Harry was directly involved in both cases. So there's no denying that FF had a hand in both couples splitting. *However*, it must be noticed that both couples would have end up splitting anyway! Ron had wanted to ditch Lavender for a while, and Dean/Ginny had been rocky, according to Hermione. So FF did not force two happy couples to split up just in order to please Harry. It just created the perfect conditions for what was inevitably coming. Those two couples would have split up someday anyway, with or without FF. Del From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 28 11:09:12 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:09:12 -0400 Subject: Memories.../ Re: Your take on locket? Message-ID: <006a01c59364$c9476840$aac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135359 Guru said: >Yes, Harry remembers the green flash, so he has some memory of the night his parents were killed CathyD now: >From jkrowling.com "Harry didn't see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in 'Philosopher's Stone', all he saw was a flash of green light." This answer was in response to why Harry didn't see the Thestrals earlier than OP. I don't think there is a memory there for him to review. The PS movie makes it look like Harry was right there watching but I don't think that was the case. Ray said; >BUT, if he did indeed lift the horcrux locket, he probably sold it to Borgin and Burkes, were it pops up again as the locket that Hermione inquires about (the quoted price was 1,500 Galleons). It might seem odd that Hermione didn't recognize it, but there's no absolute canon that she ever saw it. CathyD now: Hermione saw the opal necklace at Borgin and Burkes, not the locket, which, as you say she wouldn't recognize anyway. " - and in any case I asked Borgin about the necklace, don't you remember? When I went in to try and find out what Malfoy had asked him to keep, I saw it there." (HBP pg 239 Can Ed) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Thu Jul 28 07:40:30 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:40:30 -0000 Subject: OMG: Dumbledore's trust! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135360 It just hit me. Snape interviewed for a job at Hogwarts at the same time as Trewlawny, that's when he heard the first part of the prophecy. He then started at Hogwarts in September 1980, a couple of months after Harry was born. At this time he was a loyal DE, the Potters were in hiding and it pretty much stayed that way for a year. A week before they were killed, the Potters went under the protection of the Fidelius charm we know this from Fudge talking to Rosmerta, et al in PoA. This has always been a worry, why did they wait a year? Ok so far. in HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape was full of remorse when he realised how LV had "interpreted the prophecy", later on, Harry tells everyone: "Snape passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn't realized what he was doing, he was really sorry he'd done it, sorry that they were dead." But this isn't anywhere near what DD had told Harry. Harry is reading between the lines. What if the reason DD trusts Snape is that Snape came to him before the Potters were killed, telling him of what LV planned to do and that it was this that prompted Dumbledore to put in place the Fidelius Charm? Snape wasn't to know that the charm would be useless because of Wormtail's betrayal. There is a but though, would Snape have known that Wormtail was a DE? and if he had, would he have revlealed this to DD when he told him of LV's plans? There was probably no love lost between Wormtail and Snape, so they may not have been aware of each others loyalties. Mandy From literature_Caro at web.de Thu Jul 28 12:06:21 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:06:21 +0200 Subject: hunting up people by Owls Message-ID: <659994410.20050728140621@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135361 Hi all! I have wondered why nobody (neither the MOM nor anybody else) ever tried to get hold of anybody by sending him/her an owl. Harry always was able to send Sirius letters by owl though he did not know about his whereabouts. So an owl can find you even then. If I was is search of a person I would send him/her an owl with a little note (lte's say: "Got ya in the end!") and follow the bird. As long as there was no fidelius charm on the residence you should be able to find the one you are searching. Why did the MOM never use this way trying to find out where Sirius hid? Or even now this could be used to find out where Voldemort is having his headquarters. Has anyone an idea? Caro From literature_Caro at web.de Thu Jul 28 12:14:03 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:14:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Avada Kedavra heard 'round the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <139018675.20050728141403@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135362 Rizza: > Yes killing does split the soul, but in order to create a horcrux you > have to perform a spell. It says in one of the books (I don't remember > which), that after tryingto kill Harry, Voldemort left Godric's > Hollow. [...] > I also think if Harry did have a piece of Voldemorts soul in him, he > wouldn't be anywhere near as caring as he is. Voldemort lacks a > conscience, Harry has one. > Well let's go a little further into the theory of Voldemort being unconscious about Harry being the sixth Horcrux: Could it be that Voldemort created a seventh one and thought it to be the sixth? It is quite likely. Then on the one hand the magical number seven no longer exists and on the other Harry can hunt down all the other four Horcruxes and still must die because he is the last Horcrux to be destroyed. Caro From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 13:07:30 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:07:30 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mooseming" wrote: > The timeline for Snape's change of heart, the protection of GH and > Voldy's attack on same is difficult to explain in terms of good! > Snape but I've come up with a model. > > The problems are: > > Why did Voldy wait so long to attack after the prophecy? > Why didn't the Potters go into hiding immediately? > Why was the secret keeper thingy only activated a week before > Voldy's attack? > Why did DD accept Snape as a teacher when he did? > > Essentially this timeline is based on a completely non canon > assumption that the *only* record of births is kept at Hogwarts. > Plus the entirely cannon justified second spy Wormtail known from > POA to have been operating for a year. > > After the prophecy Voldy has to wait to see who fit's the criteria, > even if he identifies one candidate he cannot be sure it is the > *only* candidate (given the portion Snape overhears they can't even > identify gender). So he needs to identify all potentials and rule > some out, or attack multiples simultaneously. Gathering information > on the ground would be time consuming and also would never be > conclusive (there may always remain another yet to be identified). > This means he needs to get into Hogwarts to access the complete > record of births > > The Potters/Longbottoms don't go into hiding precisely because this > would mark Harry/Neville as a/the prophecy boy. > > So timeline is: > > Snape overhears prophecy > Tells Voldy > Voldy needs to identify who is prophecy boy > Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes DETraitor! Snape > Snape joins DD becomes double agent > Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts (possibly at > Snape's suggestion) > Snape fails to get info from Hogwarts citing DD mistrust as reason > Voldy sends in Wormtail to get info, he is successful > Snape learns of Voldy update, tips off DD > Secret keeper made > Secret keeper blabs > Snape goes to GH to warn Potters but James doesn't believe him > ('You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you > might be mistaken in Black' Snape in POA) > Harry + Voldy = Vapour!Mort > Snape remains at Hogwarts > Voldy reborn > Snape pays a visit and has a lot of explaining to do, but he is > skilled in Occlumency and there's an antidote to Veritaserum. So he > could pull it off. Snape reactivated as double agent. Marianne: You know, I've read some reviews/impressions of HBP stating that not much new happens, everything can be figured out pretyy easily, etc., but this list keeps coming up with convoluted problems that leave us all scratching our heads. In response to one of your questions and one of your assumptions about the Potters not going into hiding, JKR refutes this in her recent interview. When speaking of Harry's baptism she says that it had to be a very small gathering because Harry was already in danger and the Potters already had gone into hiding. So, it seems that the Potters were in hiding from at least Harry's birth to his parents' death 15 months later. Perhaps during this period of hiding is when they defied the Dark Lord 3 times. I like the idea of someone checking up on baby information in Hogwarts. I don't think I've seen that proposed before. ESE! McGonagall, anyone? Marianne From wabtm at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 12:48:56 2005 From: wabtm at yahoo.co.uk (Toni) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:48:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135364 In my copy of HBP (UK Hardback) no where in his talk with Draco does Dumbledore says that he would hide Draco and make it seem like he is dead. It says (UK Hardback page 552 and 553) "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... when the time comes we can protect him too" Does the US version say that he would hide him making him looking like he is dead??? Thanks for clarifying that if you can. Toni From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 13:41:17 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:41:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135365 Toni wrote: "In my copy of HBP (UK Hardback) no where in his talk with Draco does Dumbledore says that he would hide Draco and make it seem like he is dead." Del replies: There was a thread on that subject a few days ago. Read the post 134170 (that's the one that started the discussion), and the answers to it, as well as the posts 134221 and 134344 and their answers (the original thread got broken). Short answer: yes, the US edition has DD saying that he can make it appear like Draco and his family are dead. Del From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 13:45:02 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:45:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Toni" wrote: Toni: > In my copy of HBP (UK Hardback) no where in his talk with Draco does > Dumbledore says that he would hide Draco and make it seem like he is > dead. It says (UK Hardback page 552 and 553) "Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly > imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother > tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in > Azkaban ... when the time comes we can protect him too" > > Does the US version say that he would hide him making him looking like > he is dead??? > Sue: It says (US p591) "Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expexts it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed you mother- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban....When the time comes, we can protect him too." There you have it. I wonder why we got that edit? Sue(hpfan) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 28 13:52:04 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:52:04 -0000 Subject: A line of investigation.. Tom's Special places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135367 Valky: > One trail of breadcrumbs that I have been wanting to pursue post > HBP is the fairly obvious clue regrding where Voldemort *hides* > his Horcruxes. Similarly to his relics, his hiding places have > somewhat of a pattern to them related to the personal History of > Tom himself. The ring washidden within the home of his Mother, the > Diary as always intended to find its way to Hogwarts Chamber of > Secrets, and the Locket's hiding place was the cave where Tom as a > child felt free to explore his magical powers. > > Could these steps in the life of Childhood Tom help us to pick > locations of other Horcruxes? Each place seems to be a place where > Tom learned something about himself, where he discovered or > explored something specifically about who he was. > > Are there other moments in Toms life that we know of that suit this > profile too. They might be the places he left his other > Horcruxes. Jen: One Horcrux at the Gaunt home, one at Hogwarts and one at the cave. What information can we glean from these sites for guessing future locations? For one thing, Voldemort's not opposed to using a location he detests as represented by his choice of the Gaunt home. So even though the cave represents his childhood, there might also be a Horcrux at the orphanage. Two-fold reason: 1) because it would appeal to his twisted sense of dominion over people and places, and 2) since Harry saw the general location of the building in the Pensieve, he could find it again. Or find himself in a 'familiar' place someday only to realize he's near the orphanage. So the orphange offers a few plot options. Then there's the Riddle home or graveyard, another possibility. Seems like too many Horcruxes in one location, but again the domination thing. This would be a location Harry knows from his dreams and the graveyard of course. Plus Dumbledore's stories. We haven't seen Azkaban yet--would that be a way to kill two birds with one stone? Harry visits Azkaban after determining a Horcrux might be located there. Not sure there's any significance for Voldemort there, though. Thinking about the diary again. It actually wasn't stored at Hogwarts, just ended up there. Giving more weight to the theory the Special Services Cup is a Horcrux (besides, we'd get to go back to Hogwarts again). Voldemort would undoubtedly love the irony of storing a Horcrux under the nose of 'the Muggle-loving fool'. Last possibilty, Borgin & Burkes? But only if it's located somewhere hidden so it couldn't be sold. I'm not sure this place meant much to Riddle except for the fact he got to search out his trophies under the guise of working. That's all I can think of at the moment. We have so little information about Voldemort's adult years to go on. But now Harry is practiced in collecting memories! Maybe he'll be able to do what Dumbledore couldn't and locate an adult willing to talk about the adult Voldemort. Jen From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 28 13:52:43 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:52:43 -0000 Subject: Is Regulus the reason? also timeline.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135368 Jo wrote: So timeline is: Snape overhears prophecy Tells Voldy Voldy needs to identify who is prophecy boy Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes DETraitor!Snape Snape joins DD becomes double agent Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts (possibly at Snape's suggestion) Snape fails to get info from Hogwarts citing DD mistrust as reason Voldy sends in Wormtail to get info, he is successful Snape learns of Voldy update, tips off DD Secret keeper made Secret keeper blabs Snape goes to GH to warn Potters but James doesn't believe him ('You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black' Snape in POA) Harry + Voldy = Vapour!Mort Snape remains at Hogwarts Voldy reborn Snape pays a visit and has a lot of explaining to do, but he is skilled in Occlumency and there's an antidote to Veritaserum. So he could pull it off. Snape reactivated as double agent. colebiancardi back again: Great timeline ? I have always thought that the 16 years that Snape refers to as "his post" was his mission of spying for LV ? not his post as a Professor at Hogwarts. As OotP clearly states, Snape has only been a Professor for 14 years. I believe that Snape began spying for LV right before the prophecy was told that would fit ? that is 16 years. Carol wrote: In any case, regardless of Lily's skill level, which must have been at least E-level for her to be in NEWT Potions (which she certainly would have had with Severus because the students from all houses who reach NEWT level have it together), I think it's unlikely that this particular Slytherin would be the partner of any Gryffindor. He may even have worked alone, given the failure of any members of his Slytherin gang to come to his defense in the Pensieve scene. (On a side note, we know that Bellatrix is about three years older than Severus and probably most the members of the "Slytherin gang" were also older. Lucius Malfoy, who was probably the original leader, is six years older. So Severus, whom we see becoming increasingly bitter and angry in his potions textbook, reaching the point of creating a Dark spell "for enemies" near the end of the year, seems to be developing into a loner rather than the petted prodigy he must have been when he was part of a gang of older Slytherins. Colebiancardi again: Good analysis, Carol. I agree with the exception of one detail ? there was a Slytherin in the house with Snape during his school years ? Regulus Black(is he our RAB?). I wrote a HUGE theory on Regulus and Snape and why that may the reason why Snape turned sometime in 1980-1981 to Dumbledore. I am troubled by DD's words in the tower ? they cannot kill you if you are already dead ? words to Draco, to protect him. Is that what happened to Regulus? If you are interested, I am posting the link here ? I would love thoughts & opinions. Only one person has really responded. I guess it gets covered up by the H/G & Hr/R shipping stuff :) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 it is too long a theory to repost and I don't want to spam .. All opinions, thoughts are HIGHLY appreciated . colebiancardi (wishing people would respond, either positively or negatively, doesn't matter at this point!!) From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 28 14:04:05 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:04:05 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135369 Betsy Hp wrote: > EXACTLY!! Because this is what it comes down to. Both Dumbledore > and Voldemort think they've got a bead on Snape. They both feel > like they've taken a measure of the man and come up with a correct > answer. Only one of them can be right, IMO. And I honestly cannot > wrap my mind around the idea of *Voldemort* being a better judge of > character than Dumbledore. Rachael now: But one of them doesn't have to be right - it's possible that neither really judges Snape correctly. Betsy Hp: > In many ways these books revolve around choosing a side. Even those > who appear to avoid choosing (Umbridge, for example) wind up on a > side. (Umbridge did quite a bit to help Voldemort in OotP, even if > inadvertantly.) Every character ends up making a choice to side > with Dumbledore or to side with Voldemort. That's why I'm leery of > the idea of Dumbledore making Snape take an Unbreakable Vow, which > takes away Snape's ability to choose, and it's why I doubt that > Snape is only out for himself, which is an attempt to side-step the > choice. Snape definitely made a choice, IMO, and somehow I doubt he > could have fooled Dumbledore as to his choice so thoroughly and for > so long. Rachael: I agree with you on the theory that Dumbledore would make Snape take an Unbreakable Vow - with Dumbledore's character, the most I could see is that he would see if Snape would be willing to make the vow and take that; but he wouldn't make someone make it. I think Dumbledore would trust in a person (in this case, Snape) to not have to make them take the vow. Also, I don't think Snape not really being on either side side-steps the choice. He makes choices that he feels will benefit himself, but feels no true loyalty to Voldemort or Dumbledore. And I think that choice says a lot about him. And I think the reason he could fool Dumbledore so long is that he never really felt loyalty to Voldemort and life on Dumbledore's side was just better, so he was not intending to revert to being a DE, until the power seemed to shift to Voldemort's side. I'd also like to add that my theory about Snape just looking out for himself with no loyalty to either side doesn't make him less evil than if he was a DE. Rachael who agreed with the rest of Betsy Hp's post, which is why she had to snip it all out From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 28 14:15:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:15:42 -0000 Subject: Pervil / Gaunt linl was Re: Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135370 Karen wrote: > John of Gaunt, as you probably know, was the son of Edward III and > the father of Henry IV. He was also the great-grandfather of Edward > IV and Richard III through his (in)famous relationship with > Catherine Swynford. > > Presumably this is why JKR has chosen those particular surnames > relating to each other, but it's very interesting! > > Link to Peveril Castle if anyone's interested: > http://www.theheritagetrail.co.uk/castles/peveril%20castle.htm Potioncat: I can only assume that in England you cannot spit without hitting something that is either York or Lancaster...just as in Virginia you cannot spit without hitting something that is either Washington or Lee. Of course, none of us would spit any way....unless we had just reffed a Quidditch match. But here's a bit on Castle Snape, built in a boggy piece of land. We know of course that Slytherin came from bog. In about 1250 a manor house was built in Snape by Ralph FitzRanulph of Middleham. It would most probably have been a single roomed wooden structure incorporating a great hall. Ralph's eldest daughter, Mary "the Lady of Middleham", married Robert de Neville of Raby Castle and Snape stayed with Neville family until the late 16th century. Here's the link: http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/slhg/page2.phtml Potioncat,who has most likely wasted a post on completely unimportant information, but who does vaguely recall the Nevilles switched between the Yorks and Lancasters a few times. From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:20:40 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:20:40 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Ladyljd: > > The Cave: What exactly was Dumbledore going through during and > > after drinking that potion? Is he reliving his past? Seeing the > > future? Lost in a morbid fantasy? And afterward, just what was > > so fitting about the defense used (the potion)? Is he truly > > dieing or just severely weakened? > > Jen: I think he was reliving the worst moments of his life, his > fears and mistakes. Based on some of the things he said e.g. "It's > all my fault...Please make it stop, I know I did wrong" and "Don't > hurt them....please...it's my fault, hurt me instead." (US, chap. > 26, p. 572). > > Also, JKR said in her interview to read Book 6 carefully if we want > to know Dumbledore's boggart. Well, there it is. His biggest fear > was making mistakes which led to other people being hurt, tortured > or killed. So the potion must magnify a person's greatest fears and > guilts, sort of like an extreme dementor attack, then also render a > person incapable of doing magic to defend against it. It's a > horrible thought. I think Dumbledore is seeing his future. In spite of Harry's warning that Draco has fixed something and that Hogwarts is in danger, Dumbledore dismisses Harry's fears and chooses to go to the cave to hunt for the Horcrux. As a result, Hogwarts will be invaded by Death Eaters, including one who is a notorious werewolf. I agree that Dumbledore's boggart is making mistakes which lead to other people being hurt, tortured or killed. I also agree that the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears, like an extreme dementor attack. As Dumbledore drinks the potion, he says, "Make it stop;" "It's all my fault;" "Don't hurt them;" "Please...no not that." All of these are consistent with what he is going to learn when he arrives at the Astronomy Tower. Draco tells him that one the students has already been killed. (It turns out that it's Bill, who is alive but has been bitten by the werewolf, but Dumbledore doesn't know that.) >From Dumbledore's conversation with Draco (and from his experience all year), he knows that the objective of the Death Eaters is to kill him. Hence, his death will probably cause the Death Eaters to leave the school and, thus, protect the children. In the cave he next says, "I want to die." Logically, this corresponds with what he says wordlessly when he pleads, "Severus..." In the cave he finally shouts, "KILL ME!" This corresponds with what he thinks to Snape during the moment the two gaze at each other. It also explains why the look of revulsion and hatred did not appear on Snape's face until *after* they exchanged the mutual look. (Credit goes to justcarol for observing this.) The similarity between the two events continues right down to Dumbledore's dead appearance after he finishes the tenth goblet-ful of potion, which matches the description of him at the foot of the Tower. His eyes are closed and his glasses are askew (not flung from the body, as you would expect in a fall from a great height). [I'm not sure about the mouth being agape versus a trickle of blood coming from the mouth, however.] Dumbledore's expression is peaceful, suggesting that Snape has done what he asked, and that the remaining students will be safe from the Death Eater attack. Comments? Merrylinks From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:21:44 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:21:44 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135372 Snapeo'phile wrote: > In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, > which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the > Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't > have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of > age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says > anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting > pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Ginger, remembering days long ago, responds: Have you ever been in a girls' dorm on a Saturday night? (Guys, you don't have to admit to this if it will incriminate you.) As soon as the call goes out "I have nothing to wear!" about a dozen heads pop out of doors, at least half of which are attached to bodies of similar size to the one who is purportedly naked. (That's the heads that are attached, not the doors.) The next thing you know, the unrobed lass is surrounded by clothes. Dress robes don't seem to be the sort of thing that people have a lot of, but there's no reason why someone with a couple of older sisters didn't get 2 sets of hand-me-downs. Perhaps an older student had an outgrown set. Personally, since Angelina is going to the ball with Fred, and is older, I think she'd be a good candidate for robe donor. I'd bet money that a dorm full of girls could do alterations better than Ron, who didn't even try until the last minute. Or...since this popped into my head... Does anyone remember the Carol Burnett episode where she is Scarlet O'Hara, and comes down the stairs dressed in curtains with the rod still in them? "I saw them in a window and couldn't resist." Worked in the Sound of Music too, come to think of it. Great, now I'm going to have visions of Ginny at the ball dressed in my shower curtain. Ginger, reminding all filk fans that CMC is continuously updating the Harry Potter Filk site- now with 38 filks since HBP. Check it out here: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/prince.htm From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:34:33 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728143433.28966.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135373 > Snapeo'phile wrote: . Also, when she is seen at > the ball, no one > says > > anything about her robes. Is this a case of the > only girl getting > > pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? I am guessing that she probably either got 'loaner' robes from someone else in her house or her mom got her stuff. Besides Harry is the lead characture and Ron is friend, so why woudn't it make sense to hear more about the state of Ron's robes vs. Ginny's? laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Jul 28 14:40:09 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:40:09 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135374 > HunterGreen: > In OotP, Snape told Umbridge he had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 > years, which would be since Harry was about one. If he started at the > beginning of the term, that would have been about two months before > Voldemort's fall. Voldemort, at that point, would have been plotting > and planning a long time about the prophecy (since it was made over a > year before), and would have been planning which boy to murder (if it > was, as Dumbledore says, a choice, rather than going for the boy he > could find), if Snape got cold feet about that, than right then would > have made sense for him to want to switch sides. EXCEPT, according to > Snape (and he implies that this is easy-to-confirm knowledge among > DEs), he went there on *Voldemort's* orders, not by his own decision. Julia here: It's really strange - that Snape's case. According to him in OotP he started working 14 years ago (which can be after Potters death!) BUT in HBP he says to Bellatrix: 'I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned'. How can this be? In HBP he is refering to him staying in Hogwart so unless he helped Hagrid, Filtch or cook with other hause elves he had to teach! When is he saying the true? I am under the impression that he isnt honest with Bellatrix but then, shouldnt Bellatrix at least knew when he became a spy at Hogwarts?? It's really confusing, someone has an idea?? Julia From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:20:42 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (catalyna_99) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:20:42 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135375 dan wrote: > I haven't read an entirely convincing, Snape-based explanation for it, is all I'm saying. I'm not sure if this is an explanation, but the way I read it was the revulsion and hatred was because Snape finally found out what Draco's mission was. It was for Draco, whom he must protect because of the UV, and now Snape must finish the task. This is what I think DD was conveying to Snape. catalyna From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 28 14:56:59 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:56:59 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135376 > Julia here: > It's really strange - that Snape's case. According to him in OotP he > started working 14 years ago (which can be after Potters death!) BUT > in HBP he says to Bellatrix: 'I had sixteen years of information on > Dumbledore to give him when he returned'. How can this be? In HBP he > is refering to him staying in Hogwart so unless he helped Hagrid, > Filtch or cook with other hause elves he had to teach! When is he > saying the true? I am under the impression that he isnt honest with > Bellatrix but then, shouldnt Bellatrix at least knew when he became > a spy at Hogwarts?? > It's really confusing, someone has an idea?? Potioncat: We know Snape was spying for LV at Trelawney's interview and she had been teaching for 16 years when Snape was at 14. She says that Snape was also applying for a job when she was interviewing with DD. So it's very likely that on LV's orders, Snape began to seek employment at Hogwarts but it took a few years to get the job. In the meantime, he may have had other reasons to be hanging around DD. Or he might have continued his association with Slughorn. Suppose Snape applied for the DADA position two years running, then the potions position (hard to say) also opened up when Slughorn retired. Or it could be maths. From pansophy2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:49:29 2005 From: pansophy2000 at yahoo.com (pansophy2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:49:29 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135377 Betsy Hp wrote: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Toni" wrote: > > In my copy of HBP (UK Hardback) no where in his talk with Draco does > Dumbledore says that he would hide Draco and make it seem like he is > dead. It says (UK Hardback page 552 and 553) "Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly > imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother > tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in > Azkaban ... when the time comes we can protect him too" > > Does the US version say that he would hide him making him looking like > he is dead??? > > Thanks for clarifying that if you can. > Toni Geoff: This has already warranted a thread.... "Dumbledore & Malfoy conversation. Is this a clue?" which starts at message 134170. Follow the thread through. I'm still puzzled as to why the US edition had to differ formthe UK/Canadian copies. From jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl Thu Jul 28 15:13:40 2005 From: jolka55 at poczta.onet.pl (Julia) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:13:40 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135379 > > > Julia here: > > It's really strange - that Snape's case. According to him in OotP > he > > started working 14 years ago (which can be after Potters death!) > BUT > > in HBP he says to Bellatrix: 'I had sixteen years of information on > > Dumbledore to give him when he returned'. How can this be? In HBP > he > > is refering to him staying in Hogwart so unless he helped Hagrid, > > Filtch or cook with other hause elves he had to teach! When is he > > saying the true? I am under the impression that he isnt honest with > > Bellatrix but then, shouldnt Bellatrix at least knew when he became > > a spy at Hogwarts?? > > It's really confusing, someone has an idea?? > > Potioncat: > We know Snape was spying for LV at Trelawney's interview and she had > been teaching for 16 years when Snape was at 14. She says that Snape > was also applying for a job when she was interviewing with DD. So > it's very likely that on LV's orders, Snape began to seek employment > at Hogwarts but it took a few years to get the job. In the meantime, > he may have had other reasons to be hanging around DD. Or he might > have continued his association with Slughorn. > > Suppose Snape applied for the DADA position two years running, then > the potions position (hard to say) also opened up when Slughorn > retired. > > Or it could be maths. Julia again: Well, I dont think it's math - it's too important IMO. Your theory about Snape applying for a job for 2 years is really interesting and quite possible. But still: why did he say to Bella that he has info about DD from 16 years? In this conversation between him and Bella she accuses him of working for DD, and staying in Hogwart while she was risking her life and then rotting in Azkaban... And he replies that he gave Voldie more than she, he didnt do anything - he was spying and then had info from 16 years... That IMO means that he was refering this 16 years to the time he spent at Hogwart... Maybe he was younger assistant of Potion master or maybe Filch! Snape?? just a thought Julia From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 28 15:17:16 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:17:16 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135380 > Julia again: > Well, I dont think it's math - it's too important IMO. Your theory > about Snape applying for a job for 2 years is really interesting and > quite possible. But still: why did he say to Bella that he has info > about DD from 16 years? In this conversation between him and Bella > she accuses him of working for DD, and staying in Hogwart while she > was risking her life and then rotting in Azkaban... And he replies > that he gave Voldie more than she, he didnt do anything - he was > spying and then had info from 16 years... That IMO means that he was > refering this 16 years to the time he spent at Hogwart... > Maybe he was younger assistant of Potion master or maybe Filch! > Snape?? > > just a thought > Julia sent you an email offline, but I don't know if you have spam filters on your account :) I snipped this from the "Is Regulus the reason? also timeline" post: I have always thought that the 16 years that Snape refers to as "his post" was his mission of spying for LV ? not his post as a Professor at Hogwarts. As OotP clearly states, Snape has only been a Professor for 14 years. I believe that Snape began spying for LV right before the prophecy was told that would fit ? that is 16 years. Umbridge was quite clear & so was Snape about him being employed at Hogwarts for 14 years. colebiancardi From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Thu Jul 28 15:34:09 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:34:09 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135381 dan wrote: > I haven't read an entirely convincing, Snape-based explanation for it, is all I'm saying. catalyna_99 wrote: > ...the way I read it was the revulsion and hatred was because Snape finally found out what Draco's mission was. It was for Draco, whom he must protect because of the UV, and now Snape must finish the task. This is what I think DD was conveying to Snape. Leslie41: > And ask yourself this...if you "had" to kill something you loved...a beloved dog lying half-dead in the road, injured beyond recovery by a passing car, what look, as you pulled the trigger, would be on *your* face? > Horror. Revulsion. Maybe even something that looked like hate. dan: Don't get me wrong, folks. I'm not shrugging off your suggestions. But neither explanation has that convincing authentic ring - these are very nearly, or almost explanations, just like the others I mentioned. If I had been so silly as to make an unbreakable vow to help Draco in his task without knowing what that task was, not only would I be an abysmally stupid person, and I don't think Snape is abysmally stupid, but I wouldn't, upon discoving the truth, feel hatred and revulsion, but horror at what I would, I suddenly found out, have to do. But really, would Snape just make a vow like that in complete ignorance of what Draco's task was? What if it was to burn down Hogwarts and kill all the students? It could have been anything... If I had to put down an injured animal, I would feel pity. This too is not hatred and revulsion. The discription is unmistable. What I am saying is that any explanation of it needs to be bang on, not sort of, not almost. The only one so far that makes any sense is precisely what Leslie says is impossible. Leslie, how did you come up with this description? It's almost as if your arguement against it is based on an actual reading of it, possibly your immediate response, that you have subsequently rejected. At any rate, I think the text absolutely DOES read this way. leslie41: > "Please what, old man? 'Please don't kill me'? I've been waiting for this moment for years, you pathetic, crumbling excuse for a wizard...Aveda Kedavra!" I'm not saying it's the only explanation, but it's the only one so far that doesn't have the sense of "almost" or "sort of" to it. I mean, the description is so key, so central to our protagonists consciousness, that, I repeat, the explanation needs to be *entirely* convincing. Just like our expectations of any explanation of "the gleam". These are key things. So when Rowling says "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face", the reason for it needs to be compelling. dan From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 15:37:55 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:37:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Horcrux? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135382 Sorry if this has been mentioned (I didn't notice it) but if Voldy can have a load of horcruxes (horcri?) then what's to have stopped Dumbledore doing something similar? I fall into the category of those who don't believe for a moment that D's deceased, and suspect that there's countless ways around the slight technical hitch of his demise in book 6. Horcruxes are just one possibilty. Sandra From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jul 28 15:52:25 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:52:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728155225.77328.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135383 --- Sandra Collins wrote: > Sorry if this has been mentioned (I didn't notice > it) but if Voldy can > have a load of horcruxes (horcri?) then what's to > have stopped > Dumbledore doing something similar? The answer to that is in the first chapter of the first book. Of course he is powerful enough a wizard to make them, he would just never do something so horrible. I think after this book the Horcruxes and Unbreakable Vows are flying right and left, much in the same way as Veritaserum was flowing around till JKR put stop to it. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jjpandy at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 16:02:06 2005 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (JJ Pandy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:02:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135384 >From previous message: > In fact, Dumbledore states that "Black family tradition decreed that the > house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black'." > Chap. 3, pg 50, Scholastic American Version. > > So, if Regulus WAS still alive, Kreacher and the house could never have > passed to Harry, despite Sirius' will. > > The Other Cheryl > > JJ's response: DD seemed very pleased that Kreacher responded to Harry as his new master. Perhaps DD was pleased, not because the OOTP HQ would not be turned over to Bellatrix or Narscissa, but because he had proof that the strong magic keeping Regulus so well hidden that he was thought to be dead was still working. -JJ P.S. Can't wait to read of the first conversation between Harry and DD's portrait. From geebsy at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 15:01:24 2005 From: geebsy at yahoo.com (geebsy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:01:24 -0000 Subject: OMG: Dumbledore's trust! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135385 lazyvix3n wrote: It just hit me. > > Snape interviewed for a job at Hogwarts at the same time as Trewlawny, > > What if the reason DD trusts Snape is that Snape came to him before > the Potters were killed, telling him of what LV planned to do and that > it was this that prompted Dumbledore to put in place the Fidelius > Charm? Snape wasn't to know that the charm would be useless because of > Wormtail's betrayal. > I still like to think Snape is a "wise-guy" and was actually recruited by Dumbledore to be the spy in the Death-eater camp 1st. The books don't really say how LV recuited do they? Wormtale's accounts in P0A talk about LV forcing him with "weapons you can't imagine". Other DE were at school with him who saw him as a leader. I like Snapes character too much to want him to be completely evil. I want him to have redemption. One thing I never liked about Lord of the Rings was that Smegal was wholly consumed by Golem in the end. I don't want Snape to end up in the Burning Pit. Roxane From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 16:10:03 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:10:03 -0000 Subject: SOTHICK revisited: Harry-as-Horcrux (HBP Spoilers--LONG) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135386 A few months back, we were discussing a theory that I dubbed S.O.T.H.I.C.K. (Soul of Tom, Harry Is Carrying--Krickey!), which posited the idea that a portion of Voldemort's soul was deposited inside Harry at GH. We now have a mechanism by which LV might have done such a thing--on purpose. Harry, according to this theory, would be the last Horcrux, the Gryffindor heir-and-heirloom. Let's talk about Horcruxes. Dumbledore's guesses as to the identity of the seven bits of LV's soul seem pretty good. There was the diary and the ring--that's two, both destroyed. There is Nagini, Hufflepuff's bowl (a Smith family heirloom--Zacharais, anyone?), and the locket that R.A.B. stole (probably Regulus Black; it's probably the one the kids couldn't open in OotP that Sirius said was cursed)--that's five. Then of course there's the last little bit left in Voldemort himself--that's six. Dumbledore thought the last bit would be some relic of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's. The sword is the obvious choice, but it couldn't be connected with both Rowena and Godric, and LV seems unlikely to leave a Founder out. The Sorting Hat seems an even better choice--it was Gryffindor's, but all four Founders poured bits of their brains into it--was it a Horcrux itself? It's creepy to think of Tom Riddle being part of the Sorting process for the past fifty years (he'd have had to deposit his bit of himself while he was still a student, since it seems unlikely that he would have been able to get at the hat or sword after leaving school). Another school 'treasure' that he might have found it appropriate to use is his award for special services. Let's think about murders, since each Horcrux requires one: I don't think Myrtle counted, since she was killed not by Tom but by the Basilisk. So he couldn't start making Horcruxes until he killed his father and grandparents, between his sixth and seventh years. He shows up at school with the ring, so that's probably when that one was enchanted. The locket likewise. And the diary, obviously. But how could he have enchanted another Horcrux without committing another murder? So either he managed to sneak back into school--he certainly seemed eager to do so when he was asking Dumbledore for a job--or the sixth Horcrux isn't a school object. In which case... Could it be Harry himself? The difficulty with this is that LV would have had to intend to do it when he came to Godric's Hollow--in which case the spell he cast on Harry wasn't an AK after all. That would be... interesting. It would also explain why he laughed when he killed James (that was the trigger murder for the Horcrux spell), and also why he didn't want Lily to die--he needed someone to take care of his little chunk of himself for safe-keeping; the problem with having a mortal Horcrux is that it might up and die on you. However, if that's the case, it would be a seriously twisted bit of self-protection; he knows from the prophecy that "the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord approaches" and has guessed that it's Harry. So what does he do? Rather than kill the baby, he decides to try to possess him, which would mean that Harry could never kill LV (which seems like it would be the only definition of defeat that LV would consider) as long as he, Harry, was alive. Truly Machiavellian. The problem with this is trying to figure out just what the spell was that backfired and destroyed LV's body, because Harry did get parts of LV, so the Horcrux spell itself was at least partially successful. Mind, I'm not sure that JKR hasn't shot down the Harry-as-Gryffindor's-Heir theory in her Leaky Cauldron/MuggleNet interview, but I may have misunderstood that bit. I've thought of at least one other major problem with the Harry-as-Horcrux idea: If Harry's is a depository for a seventh of LV's soul, then why has he been trying to kill Harry? Diary!Tom wouldn't know, so I'll buy that, but Quirrell!Mort would have, as would LV himself in the Graveyard in GoF and the Ministry in OotP when he tries to get Dumbledore to kill Harry. What do people think? From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 16:28:46 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:28:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > Sorry if this has been mentioned (I didn't notice it) but if Voldy can > have a load of horcruxes (horcri?) then what's to have stopped > Dumbledore doing something similar? I fall into the category of > those who don't believe for a moment that D's deceased, and > suspect that there's countless ways around the slight technical > hitch of his demise in book 6. Horcruxes are just one possibilty. > > Sandra The only thing to stop DD would be his morality. In one of the eariler books, Minerva mentioned something to the effect that DD could case any dark spell or unforgivable that he wanted but he was "too good" to do so. (Sorry, I don't have my books to provide the quotation.) So, DD would not have a horcrux because he would not commit murder. Secondly, I do not the DD would want a horcrux because he values his own soul too much. He does not want it split. Following closely on the heels of this is the fact that DD did not fear death (see his dialogue with Harry at the end of PS/SS when he said something like death was another adventure). So, he would have no want or need to establish a horcrux. Julie From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 16:32:28 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:32:28 -0000 Subject: Pervil / Gaunt linl was Re: Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Karen wrote: > > John of Gaunt, as you probably know, was the son of Edward III > > and the father of Henry IV. He was also the great-grandfather > > of Edward IV and Richard III through his (in)famous relationship > > with Catherine Swynford. > Potioncat: > > But here's a bit on Castle Snape, built in a boggy piece of land. > We know of course that Slytherin came from bog. > > In about 1250 a manor house was built in Snape by Ralph > FitzRanulph of Middleham. Ralph's eldest daughter, > Mary "the Lady of Middleham", married Robert de Neville of Raby > Castle and Snape stayed with Neville family until the late 16th > century. OK here's the *really* freaky bit: leading on from your Neville connection, did you know that John of Gaunt's and Catherine Swynford's daughter Joan Beaufort's second marriage was to Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmorland. Her grandsons included Richard, Earl of Warwick 'the Kingmaker' as well as the aforementioned Edward IV and Richard III!!! Karen From jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 15:06:59 2005 From: jojobinks1983 at yahoo.co.uk (jojobinks1983) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:06:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135389 Toni: > > Does the US version say that he would hide him making him looking like he is dead??? Sue: > It says (US p591) "Come over to the right side Draco, and we can > hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is > more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to > hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in > your attempt to kill me- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably > expexts it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had > captured and killed you mother- it is what they would do > themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in > Azkaban....When the time comes, we can protect him too." This is very mysterious. Did anyone else notice that MuggleNet have taken this revelation from their website with no explanation? It seems Dumbledore is something of an expert at faking deaths. Perhaps in a bid to rob Harry of any residual warm and fuzzies before the big hurrah he removed himself, and therefore Harry's last emotional crutch. This way Harry won't be expecting anyone to come to the rescue AND he may have lent himself to the notion of noble sacrafices (ala Sirius, Dumbledore, his Mother) when it surfaces that he most definitely IS a Horcrux, perhaps the final Horcrux. And most importantly, Snape is therefore NOT evil, just complicated and misunderstood. Jo From quimpercaradec at yahoo.fr Thu Jul 28 16:47:51 2005 From: quimpercaradec at yahoo.fr (quimpercaradec) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:47:51 -0000 Subject: I still don't like Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135390 Hi, I come from this far-away country across the Channel, apparently filled with arrogant people ;-), but I still think Fleur's behaviour extremely rude and insensitive ? even ? by french standards ; there may be slightly different codes of conduct in each country, but those cultural differences don't stretch that far : even in Paris, you're not supposed to speak constantly about yourself, especially in good, rather than listen to other people, nor is it well-thought of, when you travel abroad, to criticize everything instead of trying to adapt to a new way of life and enjoy it. Fleur has been rude to her hosts, from her first meal at Hogwarts (she laughed derisively at the mention of Hogwart's comforts) to her last Christmas at the Burrow (she spoiled Mrs Weazley's pleasure at listening to her favorite singer). What I think least forgivable of all is the way she turned Ron down before the Yule Ball ; she could have done it without showing contempt, which can be so hurtful, especially to a teenager. Even so, she seems to be a good person, not as shallow as we would have thought at first ; she shows real gratitude to Harry after the second task and that scene at the hospital was one of the good surprises of HBP : so good looks are not that important to her ? but even then, she can't resist bragging about hers. So, despite those qualities, she's still soo annoying... Quimpercaradec (Please pardon my english, it's only my second language). From pinkshells at aol.com Thu Jul 28 15:39:44 2005 From: pinkshells at aol.com (optionspink) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:39:44 -0000 Subject: Is Regulus the reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135391 Colebiancardi wrote: > I am troubled by DD's words in > the tower ? they cannot kill you > if you are already dead ? words to Draco, to protect him. Is that > what happened to Regulus? If you are interested, I am posting the > link here ? I would love thoughts & opinions. Only one person has > really responded. I guess it gets covered up by the H/G & Hr/R > shipping stuff :) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 OptionsPink: I wanted to tell you that I believe your theory is "dead" on! It is really quite brilliant, good job. Here is just another thought.....upon the death of Sirius, #12 would go to the next living Black, therefore it would go to Regulus, if he was truely alive. But in HBP (UK edition Pg. 55) after DD anounces to Harry that he has inherited #12 and confirms it with Kreacher, DD says: "That simplifies matters. It seems that Sirius knew what he was doing." I believe that DD intrusted Sirius to make the neccessay enchantments to ensure that #12 would go to Harry rather Regulus, and DD was either a bit proud or surprised that Sirius actually got the job done properly. Shelly From EvilNuff at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 15:48:02 2005 From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:48:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > Sorry if this has been mentioned (I didn't notice it) but if Voldy can > have a load of horcruxes (horcri?) then what's to have stopped > Dumbledore doing something similar? I fall into the category of > those who don't believe for a moment that D's deceased, and > suspect that there's countless ways around the slight technical > hitch of his demise in book 6. Horcruxes are just one possibilty. > > Sandra Well I would think the fact that you have to murder to create a Horcrux would stop Dumbledore first off. Secondly, Dumbledore has said a few times he does not fear death, that it is just another adventure if I recall correctly. Finally from a literary standpoint the story works much better if Harry is on his own. We've been set up for 6 books now that DD is the only wizard Voldy is concerned by. Now that he is removed we can have the final showdown between Harry and Voldy next book. If DD is still alive then that throws a pretty big wrench in the works! He's dead Sandra, unfortunate but it had to happen! :( -David From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:10:40 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:10:40 -0000 Subject: OMG: Dumbledore's trust! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135393 Roxane says: > I still like to think Snape is a "wise-guy" and was actually > recruited by Dumbledore to be the spy in the Death-eater camp 1st. > The books don't really say how LV recuited do they? Wormtale's > accounts in P0A talk about LV forcing him with "weapons you can't > imagine". Other DE were at school with him who saw him as a > leader. I like Snapes character too much to want him to be > completely evil. I want him to have redemption. One thing I never > liked about Lord of the Rings was that Smegal was wholly consumed by > Golem in the end. I don't want Snape to end up in the Burning Pit. I have to point out, however, that in being wholly consumed by Gollum in the fires of Mount Doom, Smeagol _was_ redeemed. Sure, it was not a conscious choice - but his struggle with Frodo, who had himself turned back on his mission and fashioned himself "Lord", was what led, finally, to the destruction of the ring. And this was, more importantly, _exactly_ what Gandalf had prophesized in the Mines of Moria, when Frodo commented that Bilbo should have killed Gollum when he had the chance: "Gollum has yet to play a part..." I think that it is very, very likely that in the end of Book 7, Snape will die, albeit consciously. In so doing, not only will he cement his place among the good guys, redeem himself beyond question, prove Dumbledore's trust well-founded, but also finally come to rest with Harry and Harry's family. In another sense, could you imagine (those of you who like me are convinced Snape is good and not ESE) Snape settling down to a cozy, comfortable life style at Spinner's End after LV is destroyed? No. I think, like Gandalf in LOTR, Snape must go: to signal the end of one era, the beginning of another. - AA From Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 16:20:57 2005 From: Catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" Message-ID: <20050728162057.5953.qmail@web30512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135394 Dan: The only one so far that makes any sense is precisely what Leslie says is impossible. Leslie, how did you come up with this description? It's almost as if your arguement against it is based on an actual reading of it, possibly your immediate response, that you have subsequently rejected. At any rate, I think the text absolutely DOES read this way. leslie41: > "Please what, old man? 'Please don't kill me'? I've been waiting for this moment for years, you pathetic, crumbling excuse for a wizard...Aveda Kedavra!" But, as many argue, why would Dumbledore be begging. He's sent for Snape. He's been talking to Draco. He doesn't show fear when the DE's enter, but when Snape comes rushing without saying a word, he's begging for his life; or Draco's? It doesn't fit. Also following up on the interaction with Harry and Snape. Many people leave off the pause between, "Don't" *pained* expression "Call me a coward!" (don't have the book here so can't give an exact quote.) I think the pause is also important. Snape and Dumbledore are not acting as we would believe. Why would Snape be pained that Harry called him a coward? Neither likes each other and it's amazing that after what Harry's just seen, he's not calling him something worse. Even if it isn't name calling Harry's seen some of Snape that he wishes to keep hidden and could even taunt him on that. Snape should accept it as name calling from some little high-handed brat of a wizard. As you said, these are key conversations, but I think we are trying to fit them in the wrong locks. This conversation is key as you say, but somehow we're all trying to make it fit the wrong lock. Cat Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog From caesian at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 17:25:39 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:25:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: IMO Aberforth has Grimauld locket not Mundungus, anyone agree? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB56E29-C014-4BCB-A6EF-DDC77D99B835@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135395 On Jul 26, 2005, at 8:20 PM, saraquel_omphale wrote: > ... If Mung was trying to fence the goods in > Hogsmeade, and JKR needed to show him doing it so that Harry could > make the plot connections, why introduce Aberforth at all, wouldn't > any old dubious looking witch/wizard do? > > If indeed Aberforth has the locket, then I think that he has it for > a reason, ... > > Saraquel > Now caesian: In the second Floo Powder scene in OotP, Sirius was under the impression that Aberforth had thrown Dung out of the HogsHead "20 years ago", and that "that Barman has a long memory". That was his explanation for why Dung was dressed up like a witch at the very first DA meeting in Hogsmead. Given that history, it was interesting to see Dung and Aberforth in company. As to JKR's possible motive for involving Aberforth in the plot - he is a living link to DD's family and personal history. I think that Book 7 will involve Harry understanding more of DD's personal history, including his past dealings with Grindelwald (at the time T.R., R.H. and M.M. were at Hogwarts), and his own family. Did anyone else have the impression, after reading the scene in the cave, that DD has had a great family tragedy in his past? "Please, please... Don't hurt them... hurt me instead?" While this is typical DD and 'they' could be anyone, including every student to ever attend Hogwarts - it struck me as possible that DD himself failed to protect his family, and through Harry, has attempted to protect another person he loves at All costs. His life seems to be one long struggle against a particularly personal form of evil, combined with an absolutely uncompromising desire to protect the innocent and those he loves. It also struck me as possible that DD empathizes with Harry's plight far more than we might realize. For example, in one scenario, a boy DD watched as his parent were murdered by Grindelwald. Hence his conscientious development of amazing early skills (Choices being the theme - he couldn't just have been born 100X better than everyone else). Hence too his readiness to believe that Harry would hunt down Voldemort because of *who he was*, i.e., what his past has made him... That's all speculation, but I believe JKR's most recent interview alluded to the possibility of learning more about DD's own life, and family, in Book 7: ES: Dumbledore is unrivaled in his knowledge of magic ? JKR: Mmhm. ES: Where did he learn it all? JKR: I see him primarily as someone who would be self-taught. However, he in his time had access to superb teachers at Hogwarts, so he was educated in the same way that everyone else is educated. ***Dumbledore's family would be a profitable line of inquiry***, more profitable than sweet wrappers. MA: His family? JKR: Family, yes. MA: Should we talk about that a little more? JKR: No. But you can! [Laughter.] Just my two pence. Cheers, caesian > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From momy424 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 17:09:10 2005 From: momy424 at aol.com (Shannon) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:09:10 -0000 Subject: hunting up people by Owls In-Reply-To: <659994410.20050728140621@web.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, literature_Caro wrote: > Hi all! > > I have wondered why nobody (neither the MOM nor anybody else) ever > tried to get hold of anybody by sending him/her an owl. Harry always > was able to send Sirius letters by owl though he did not know about > his whereabouts. So an owl can find you even then. > If I was is search of a person I would send him/her an owl with a > little note (lte's say: "Got ya in the end!") and follow the bird. As > long as there was no fidelius charm on the residence you should be > able to find the one you are searching. > Why did the MOM never use this way trying to find out where Sirius > hid? Or even now this could be used to find out where Voldemort is > having his headquarters. Has anyone an idea? > > Caro Momy424 here: JK actually answers this on her site - F.A.Q. About the book page 3 about why the MoM didn't send an owl to Sirius and follow it. Her response is as follows: Just as wizards can make buildings unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Jul 28 17:27:43 2005 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Jul 2005 17:27:43 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1122571663.234.88773.w101@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135397 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: The following best describes my current thoughts about Severus Snape (vote for one): o I have always believed Snape was ESE!, and after reading HBP, I am SURE of it o I have always believed Snape was on the side of Good, and after reading HBP, I am SURE of it o I have always believed Snape was ESE!, but after reading HBP, I believe he is on the side of Good o I have always believed Snape was on the side of Good, but after reading HBP, I believe he is ESE! o I have always believed Snape was ESE!, but after reading HBP, I am torn o I have always believed Snape was on the side of Good, but after reading HBP, I am torn o I have always *wanted* to believe Snape was on the side of Good and still want to believe it, but after reading HBP I am not sure o I used to be on the fence about Snape, but now I am certain he is ESE! o I used to be on the fence about Snape, but now I am certain he is on the side of Good o I have always been on the fence about Snape, and I am still on the fence about Snape o Snape is between such moral absolute categories as good and evil; he partakes of both and is a frayed individual o Ultimately Snape is on no one's side but his own o Snape plays each side against the other and will align himself in the end with whichever side he believes will win o Snape will do whatever is necessary to ensure his own rise to the position of Dark Lord o I change my mind about Snape, corresponding to alternate HPfGU message numbers; on even numbers, I think he is Good, and on odd numbers, I think he is ESE! o I am hoping and expecting Snape to come down on the side of Good, but I am reserving judgment until I have Book 7 in my hands o I am hoping and expecting Snape to come down as ESE!, but I am reserving judgment until I have Book 7 in my hands o I have NO IDEA what to make of Snape To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1916317 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From rt11guru at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 17:24:21 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:24:21 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Malfoy conversation. Is that a clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135398 > JJ's response: > DD seemed very pleased that Kreacher responded to Harry as his new > master. Perhaps DD was pleased, not because the OOTP HQ would not be > turned over to Bellatrix or Narscissa, but because he had proof that > the strong magic keeping Regulus so well hidden that he was thought > to be dead was still working. Guru says: Don't you think it's likely that if DD were hiding Regulus from LV, at somepoint Reggy might have said, "Hey DD, did I tell you about the neat locket that I boosted from You-Know-Who's secret cave"? From iam.kemper at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 17:25:57 2005 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (Kemper) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:25:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <700201d40507281025f72d9f2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135399 Jen wrote: ...snipped > There are probably others. I tend to think DD was dying. He said > himself Voldemort would not want to immediately kill someone going > for the locket so as to find out how they located the cave and > worked through the protections. As for what happened next, I'm on > the fence at the moment. Kemper writes: I don't think LV cares how someone worked through his protections, he would understand the possibility. What he does care about, you mentioned, is how the person located the cave. If I were LV, I would be thinking, "If the cave was discovered, then so was some of my past. What do they know about me? Are my other soul pieces safe?! M. effer!!!" Kemper From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 17:32:40 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:32:40 -0000 Subject: POLL: Snape poll is ready Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135400 After much input from HPfGU members (thank you all very much!), the "What I think of Snape" poll is now posted and available for vote- casting. You will find the poll here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1916317 With 18 options, I have attempted to include just about every permutation of members' thoughts re: Severus Snape. If I have left out your particular nuance from those options, however, I do apologize. Happy voting! Let's see what this group thinks! Shorty Elf, for the HPfGU Admin Team From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 28 16:54:23 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:54:23 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Question about Patronus (Patroni?) References: Message-ID: <42E90DBF.000009.03664@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 135401 Please help me here. I always thought a person's patronus reflected their personality. If I'm thinking correctly, how could Tonks' patronus change? If I remember my psychology correctly, a person may change in many ways but their base personality stays the same, maybe buried/suppressed but still the same. I'm thinking Tonks just may not be "our" Tonks. I know Snape said a persons patronus can change but, could Snape be covering for someone? Please, someone, straighten me out. Donna Half-blood prince Adult education Organizational culture YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 28 18:08:06 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:08:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Patronus (Patroni?) In-Reply-To: <42E90DBF.000009.03664@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <008501c5939f$4ed67d90$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135402 Please help me here. I always thought a person's patronus reflected their personality. If I'm thinking correctly, how could Tonks' patronus change? If I remember my psychology correctly, a person may change in many ways but their base personality stays the same, maybe buried/suppressed but still the same. I'm thinking Tonks just may not be "our" Tonks. Sherry responds: Actually, it's your animagus form that reflects your personality, not your patronus. A lot of speculation has happened about whether or not a wizard's animagus form and patronus would be the same, but there's no definitive answer on that. The patronus is a protective charm, so for instance, Harry's represents his father. Sherry From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 18:23:59 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:23:59 -0000 Subject: Question about Patronus (Patroni?) In-Reply-To: <42E90DBF.000009.03664@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: Please help me here. I always thought a person's patronus reflected theirpersonality. If I'm thinking correctly, how could Tonks' patronus change? If I remember my psychologycorrectly, a person may change in many ways but their base personality stays the same, maybe buried/suppressed but still the same. I'm thinking Tonks just may not be "our" Tonks. I know Snape said a persons patronus can change but, could Snape be coveringfor someone? Please, someone, straighten me out. Donna --- Inge: Ah - this is what I've been waiting for... Well, let's assume the patronus reflects your animagus-form - and vise versa.... It wasn't really Tonks there with Harry - because Tonks was busy elsewhere (infiltrating Voldemort's quarters in her metamorphmagus changed appearance). Someone else had to take over the Tonks-part (in polyjuiced version) ... it was Sirius - well returned from his little trip beyound the veil. He he - that could explain *Tonks'* (well, Sirius') four-legged *new* Patronus - and it would explain Snape's animosity against *Tonks* when *she* delivered Harry to the schoolgates. It would also explain why *Tonks* patroled inside Hogwarts. *She* wanted to keep a close eye on Harry. It would also explain - and this is my maingoal with this - why Lupin was resistant to come out in the open and have this relationship public. Of course Rowling wouldn't give us a metamorphmagus in OOTP if not to use her in the books to come - even in absense. Ah well, the Remus/Sirius-shipper in me is happy again ;-) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 18:25:55 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:25:55 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135404 dan: > If I had been so silly as to make an unbreakable vow to help Draco in > his task without knowing what that task was, not only would I be an > abysmally stupid person, and I don't think Snape is abysmally stupid, > but I wouldn't, upon discoving the truth, feel hatred and revulsion, > but horror at what I would, I suddenly found out, have to do. > > But really, would Snape just make a vow like that in complete > ignorance of what Draco's task was? What if it was to burn down > Hogwarts and kill all the students? It could have been anything... zgirnius: The difficulty with this discussion is that we do not know the motivations for *any* of Snape's actions. And how we would construe any one of them clearly rests to some extent on how we had construed the others. And what, generally, we expect of him. For example, if you're mostly convinced Snape is a Death Eater, Chapter 2 can read like a confirmation of this opinion. If you think he's spying for the Order, you may see things differently. I've personally been doubtful Snape is a loyal DE. (I tend to believe that he is a morally flawed character who has some personal reasons for siding with the Order). So I assumed that in that chapter we finally saw him engaged in spying for the Order, as GoF suggests he does. (At least, it suggests DD *believes* he does...) It seemed obvious to me that he did not know the task, but deduced from the remarks made that it was a big deal of the sort it would be worthwhile to sniff out. It also seemed to me that he was oddly affected by Cissy's emotional outbursts. (Oddly because it did not seem to fit my earlier conceptions of the guy...) In the conversation directly preceeding the first mention of a UV, Cissy asks that Snape do two things-to watch over Draco and protect him from harm while Draco carries on the asssignment. When Snape agreed to the UV, I took this to me an indication that he expected to confirm he would do those two things. (His motives would include some intention to help Cissy, and the hope of using the added trust to worm out the details of the task, in exchange for protecting Dracfo, which he could do. He could even expect DD to help with *that*.) And he did, but then Cissy continued (and Snape was obviously surprised/nervous, as his hand twitched.) Was he stupid not to back out at that point? I can't decide how suspicious it would look to agree to the first 2 clauses and not the third, from LV's point of view if this conversation got back to him (via Bella, most likely). But then Snape would have had to decide this in a split second, so I could see him making either decision, and could see either decision at this point being a mistake. Why am I dwelling so long on this unrelated scene when you asked about the tower? Well, in my reading, again, Snape works out what the task is at some point, and then is faced with a decision. He doesn't want to kill DD, (he does not want to help LV, also, working with DD and having his trust for all these years may have some meaning to him) but does not see a way out of it for himself. So to me that hate and revulsion was obviously self-directed. When the choice is forced upon him at the end of the book he chooses to kill DD and save himself. This is a guy who appears to be hung up on courage (note his comments in other books to Sirius, and his contempt for Pettigrew...) I found this view to be confirmed soon after in his extreme reaction to being called a coward by Harry. Just my take on it. Unfortunately, I can see other possibilities. I really think JKR did a great job of making sure we would not be able to say definitevely what was going on here without knowledge she will presumably provide in Book 7... From ejom723 at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 28 17:57:57 2005 From: ejom723 at bellsouth.net (ejom723) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:57:57 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135405 > Betsy Hp wrote: > > Conversely, perhaps Dumbledore trust in Snape was/is very well > founded. So much so, that Snape has helped Dumbledore fake his own > death. Jules: Interesting theory. I thought something along these lines here myself. Maybe that's why they (Snape & Dumbledore)argued in the forest. It's kind of suspicious when the beloved brother of the deceased does not show to his funeral. He's not mentioned any where! Something's fishy at Hogwarts. That and I am too reluctant to let go of a dear character. Jules From hokus7 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 28 17:14:02 2005 From: hokus7 at yahoo.ca (hokus7) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:14:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Horcrux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135406 Sandra: > Sorry if this has been mentioned (I didn't notice it) but if Voldy can > have a load of horcruxes (horcri?) then what's to have stopped > Dumbledore doing something similar? Hokus: In addition to the things others have mentioned, in the pensieve scene with Sluggy where Tom finds out about Horcruxes, Slughorn mentions that Dumbledore is adamantly anti-horcrux. Hokus. From minervakab at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 17:28:49 2005 From: minervakab at yahoo.com (minervakab) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:28:49 -0000 Subject: A line of investigation.. Tom's Special places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135407 Valky: > Are there other moments in Toms life that we know of that suit this > profile too. They might be the places he left his other Horcruxes. > > Any thoughts? I have been investigating this too. I have been trying to make a spreadsheet of the places, horcuxes, deaths that created them, then relating tham back to the seven tasks HHR went through in SS. I beleive the important places are Chamber of Secrets, House of Gaunt, Cave, Riddle House, orphanage, and Godric's Hollow. That is only six though. Godrics Hollow could be wrong since VM didn't have much time to make a horcrux unless it can be done at the same time aa an AK or the theory that Harry or Lily was the horcrux. It makes more sense to me that the death that made this horcrux (if it exists) would be James since VM would have more time to make the horcrux than he did between killing Lily and losing his body killing Harry. But then again, nothing came out of his wand between James and Lily so I may need to think more on this one. I also think there may be another at Hogwarts since LV wanted to get back in so badly. So that one would be in the Chamber of Secrets since the diary was not stored there just destroyed there. I will be very interested in this thread. Thanks for bringing it up. Minervakab From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 28 19:05:33 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:05:33 -0000 Subject: the Unbreakable Vow (wasRe: "revulsion and hatred etched in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135408 > zgirnius: > The difficulty with this discussion is that we do not know the > motivations for *any* of Snape's actions. And how we would construe > any one of them clearly rests to some extent on how we had construed > the others. And what, generally, we expect of him. snip Potioncat: Good post, Zgirnius. Here's my (rather long) take on the vow. What really happened at Spinner's End? What did Snape really promise to do? Narcissa shows up, distraught, her emotions on her sleeve and asks Snape for help. He spends a lot of time looking into her eyes. Very touching, wasn't it? Offered her refreshments too. He didn't get it himself, but told Kreacher...erm Wormtail...which wine to bring out. >From Narcissa's and Bella's bits of conversation, it sounds as if LV called Cissy, Bella and Draco into his office and gave them orders. We don't know for sure, but it sounds that way to me. They were told not to talk. Snape says he knows The Plan. Does he? Snape could be lying. If he didn't know the plan when they first came in, he knew it after a few teary eyed gazes; and for some reason decides to align himself with the sisters by agreeing to the UV. One can only wonder how he would explain this to LV, but he must not think it's unacceptable to the Big Guy. Is he telling the truth? LV may have told him that Draco was assigned to kill DD, but that LV was in no hurry. He may even have given them a very long dead line (excuse the pun) knowing that would drag out the discomfort for the entire Malfoy family; and he may already have assigned Snape to kill DD once Draco had failed. In this case Snape has lost nothing in LV's eyes by making the UV and has raised his esteem with the sisters. They are somewhat in his debt now, after all. If Snape already knew The Plan, then DD probably already knew it too. Apparently, DD's strategy was for Snape to keep tabs on the project, but to leave Draco free to make his choices. They may already have discussed what Snape was to do. In that case, Snape hasn't really hurt those plans either; although the final condition may have made it more intense. Now, whether or not he expected the last condition is up in the air. Let's assume he didn't, but couldn't back out. Let's assume he did, and had his own way of getting around it, particularly if he and DD had already made plans of their own. The UV is harder to explain if DD didn't know about The Plan, unless Snape was only expecting the first two conditions. So, what did he promise? "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?" No big deal. Snape has been watching over Draco for 5 years now. Particularly if DD and Snape are aware of what's going on now, he's already going to be watching over him. "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?" That goes with part one, and is nothing new. In fact, it allows Snape to caution Draco against certain actions, thereby actually sabotaging The Plan but keeping to the letter of the UV. "And, should it prove necessary if it seems Draco will fail " whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" Uh-Oh, not so good. But even here, Snape might have an out. Just how do you define "if it seems Draco will fail" or "if it becomes necessary"? Draco was able to make several attempts without Snape having to step in. It did get him in the end. At that last moment when (we think) DD is already dying and Snape will die if he doesn't carry out the Dark Lord's wishes as per the UV, because by now, Draco did try and did fail. Perhaps without the UV he could have left DD on the tower, leading the DEs in a retreat from the castle. DD most likely still would have died, but Snape wouldn't have had to help him on. We know (by the end of the book) that Snape is a Legilimens, that Bellatrix is an Occlumens, but not whether Narcissa has any Occlumency skills. I'm basing this on Snape's comment later that Bellatrix must be teaching Occlumency to Draco. What if, unknown to Snape, Narcissa has picked up some skills on her own? The real question might be, 'At Spinner's End, in the emotional scene between Narcissa and Snape who was the spider and who was the fly?' Potioncat From jaylenegwallace at aol.com Thu Jul 28 19:15:29 2005 From: jaylenegwallace at aol.com (hogwartsmom) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:15:29 -0000 Subject: Theories and Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135409 Michelle wrote: > > I read someone else's post that suggested perhaps R.A.B. was Regulus > Black. I had the same thought. I looked through OotP and couldn't > find his middle name mentioned anywhere, when Harry and Sirius were > looking at the Black Family tree. In the scene at the tapestry, Sirius mentions his uncle Aphard. I think Regulus was named for his uncle and R.A.B. is Regulus Alphard Black. Typical JKR clue, though one of the very few I actually have caught on my own in the series! HogwartsMom From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 19:36:26 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:36:26 -0000 Subject: Clues Convergent Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135410 zgirnius: OK, you're right, it's a nice, long, involved, theory, mush effort was clearly put into it, sothe least we could do is comment on it, especially now that I have a few of my own thoughts off my chest! ;-) And it provides a reasonable motive for Snape sincerely wanting to leave the DEs. I find the idea that Snape and Regulus could have had a friendly, perhaps older brother/younger brother style relationship quite plausible. They were, as you mention, in the same House at Horwarts, and Snape did, it seems, cultivate relationships with the *right* sort of pureblood families like the Malfoys and the Blacks. You did not mention this in your original post, but it appears that Snape is still friendly (by Snapish standards, anyway) with Cissy Malfoy, who is a cousin of Regulus. The position Draco finmds himself in must remind him of Regulus...and perhaps he feels that much more for Cissy if he feels he had a hand in killing her cousin? I would assume that where Sirius despiused Cissy and Bella, Regulus would probably have had a good relationship with both as they were all into the whole "toujours pur" thing. You mention in your theory the possibility that Snape might have killed Regulus on LV's orders. This would be kind of interesting in terms of Snape's relationship with Dumbledore. I can see Snape coming to him with the story that 'a DE' killed Regulus in LV's orders...but would he admit it was Snape himself that did it? I think that might certainly make Snape feel even *worse* about the whole thing, but it ought to make DD wonder about him...especially in light of the events of HBP... Of course, even if he did kill Regulus, Snape might keep that bit from DD. Hmmm. I think I prefer that he did not tell DD, all in all, though it is your theory, of course. I do think that if you're on the right track, and Snape killed Regulus, the events of HBP must have really opened old wounds for Snape. He's again in a position where something/someone is forcing him into a position of killing a friend. Cuold play out in Book 7 in interesting ways. From phoenixtears at fuse.net Thu Jul 28 19:47:24 2005 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:47:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grand Plan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135411 Dumbledore's Grand Plan - my theory of Dumbledore's strategy for defeating Lord Voldemort: Dumbledore, the wizard who defeated the last great Dark Wizard, is not satisfied with the MOM's efforts to overcome LV, and clearly LV has infiltrated parts of the MOM. Having already established his own secret group (Order of the Phoenix) to work against LV, DD hears Trelawney's prophecy of how LV can be vanquished. DD doesn't think much of Divination in general, but this prophecy, if true, is too good to ignore. After first protecting the two children to which the prophecy might apply by putting the pregnant mothers, and probably fathers, into hiding, DD is approached by Snape, claiming to have renounced LV. As LV has already tried to get back into Hogwarts himself in the past (the job interview with DD), DD must have considered that Death Eater Snape may have been acting on LV's behalf. DD is so convinced of Snape's trustworthiness, there has to have been more than just a remorseful story. When Harry asks DD how he can be "sure Snape's on our side," DD "looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something."(HBP p. 549, US ed.) He was, I believe, deciding how much more to tell Harry, and whether giving Harry this information wouldjeopardize DD's Grand Plan.(DD decides not to tell Harry at this time,merely restating that he trusts Snape.) This fits with DD's pattern of being very cautious with information, given LV's skill with Legilimency. For example, no one is told of the complete prophecy but Harry, and him not until he is almost 16 years old. I think DD is so certain of Snape's loyalty because he either had Snape share critical memories concerning his change in attitude, using the pensieve, and/or insisted Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to protect the child of the prophecy. Snape tells Bellatrix (HBP p.26) that LV ordered him to spy on DD at Hogwarts. Assuming this is true, it is still possible that Snape took this opportunity to approach DD about defecting. Perhaps Snape even suggested to LV the idea of planting a spy(himself) at Hogwarts. DD takes Snape's defection as another asset to his long range plan to defeat LV. When LV is apparently destroyed during the attack on the Potters, DD is anticipating a return,(p.835, OotP) and already plotting how to vanquish LV when he returns. Snape is protected from punishment by the MOM, both to encourage further loyalty to DD and to keep him at Hogwarts under DD's eye. DD allows Snape to torment students, both because Snape is an excellent potions maker,and useful to have around for that reason, but mainly because DD has a plan for Snape when LV returns. Allowing Snape to torment Harry in particular helps Snape maintain the facade to LV that Snape would be happy to hand Harry over to LV, and when LV and Harry have that critical confrontation, Harry's hatred of Snape will encourage LV to continue to trust Snape, given that, at this point, Harry apparently still is no good at Occlumancy . DD was willing to put Harry into the Dursley's hands for ten years, knowing they might mistreat him,because the Grand Plan to defeat LV takes priority. So,what's a little torment in Potions class and undeserved detentions from Snape. What better way to place trusted Snape in a position to protect Harry than to give LV the ultimate reason to trust Snape: killing the feared rival, DD. I interpret the overheard argument between DD and Snape in the forest to be about DD insisting that maintaining Snape's cover is essential, and that Snape must do anything, even kill DD, to do so, and Snape resisting. After drinking the potion in the cave, DD insists on getting to Snape, and no one else. Snape can either save DD from the effect of the potion or, if the DD's death is inevitable, Snape will have the opportunity to appear to "kill" DD. Just as DD did not tell others of the complete prophecy, he most likely has told no one but Harry of the Horcruxes. He never promises to tell Harry why he trusts Snape so completely, but he does promise to tell the story of his withered and blackened hand. If DD is anticipating that he might be killed, either by Snape or in the search for the horcrux, I suspect he would have made some plan for passing on to Harry further information helpful for defeating LV (how to destroy a horcrux, perhaps, or suggestions of where to look?). This may take the form of DD's portrait in the headmaster's office having some special charm to give a message to Harry only, or some item that Dumbledore wills to Harry. Harry's receives special training from DD to help keep him alive and to defeat LV. Rather than teach him Occlumancy (which I'll admit I expected), DD shares memories concerning LV so that Harry will understand LV's weakness. But he also gives him training in how to persuade others to help him. DD takes Harry to Slughorn to convince the latter to teach at the school, but, more importantly, gives Harry the homework assignment of "getting information from a reluctant source." The latter will be essential in Harry tracking down the horcruxes, carrying on Dumbledore's work. By permitting Harry to tell Ron and Hermione about the horcruxes, and encouraging him to tell them about the prophecy, DD "teaches" Harry that he needs his friends' help. But by warning Harry to further tell his friends not to share this information with others, DD also emphasizes his belief that secrecy is also important in defeating LV. I post this unattached to any thread, since it includes my response to multiple threads. Phoenix From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 19:46:24 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore is Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1122512218.1661.65688.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050728194624.82133.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135412 I'm sure there is someone more well read than I could explain this connection. All the theories about Gindlewald got me thinking about a literary connection between JKR's books and some literary classics. I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but it just occurred to me. Do we know that Grindlewald was a human or a monster? The monster in the Beowulf (AKA Dumbledore) legend is named Grendel (AKA Grindlewald). In the legend Beowulf tears off Grendel's right arm. Grendel's mother returns to avenge her son. Beowulf eventually overcomes the monster when he sees a legendary sword and cuts off her head and the head of Grendel. The sword melts on his way back. When Beowulf is an old man he is threatened by a new monster, a dragon (AKA Voldemort). A younger kinsman, Wiglaf (AKA Harry) is the only one to stand by Beowulf. Wiglaf slays the dragon (actually Beowulf gives the last jab). As he dies, Beowulf gives Wiglaf his kingdom. Beowulf is honored with a magnificent funeral rite - burned on a pyre. This is not a really fleshed out theory, but I thought there were too many similarities to JKR's work to ignore it. --Morgan From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 28 19:54:26 2005 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:54:26 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or even deliberately misleading? [snip] Demetra: The one interview comment that has always troubled me was pre-HPB. JKR was asked why Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position and she responded that Dumbledore felt that it might "tempt' (my word) Snape. Now, this is either a misleading statement or a huge lapse of logic. Are we to believe that Dumbledore would worry about temptation by giving Snape the DADA position, which is about *defense* against the Dark Arts? The same Dumbledore who has no problem with sending Snape off to act as a spy amongst the DE's? Wouldn't hanging around with seriously evil, Dark Arts loving DE's be more of a temptation than teaching a bunch of schoolkids defense? Or was Dumbledore's real reason that he knew the position was cursed? If so, then JKR has indeed been deliberately misleading in an interview. Demetra From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 20:17:21 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:17:21 -0000 Subject: Timeline for Snape's change of heart (was: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135416 mooseming proposed: > > The timeline for Snape's change of heart, the protection of GH > > and Voldy's attack on same is difficult to explain in terms of > > good! Snape but I've come up with a model. > > Essentially this timeline is based on a completely non canon > > assumption that the *only* record of births is kept at Hogwarts. > > This means he needs to get into Hogwarts to access the complete > > record of births > > > > So timeline is: > > Snape overhears prophecy > > Tells Voldy > > Voldy needs to identify who is prophecy boy > > Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes DETraitor! > > Snape > > Snape joins DD becomes double agent > > Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts (possibly > > Snape's suggestion) Marianne: > In response to one of your questions and one of your assumptions > about the Potters not going into hiding, JKR refutes this in her > recent interview. When speaking of Harry's baptism she says that > had to be a very small gathering because Harry was already in > danger and the Potters already had gone into hiding. So, it seems > that the Potters were in hiding from at least Harry's birth to his > parents' death 15 months later. SSSusan: Two thoughts here. First, re: Mooseming's potential timeline. Could it be possible that Snape was *still* on the side of Voldy at the time he started working at Hogwarts? Perhaps he was pretending to have joined DD's side but was still loyal to Voldy? And then, he **did** get access to that list of births and, when he did, discovered James and Lily's son was on the list? And *this* knowledge then caused him to switch sides for real? Kinda thinking off the top of my head here (not very wise, I know), but it was just a thought that those steps might be reversed in the timeline? Feel free to point out the ludicrousness of what I just said. ;-) Second thought has to do with Marianne's mention of Harry's christening. Here's the actual quote from the Edinburgh Book Fair: Q: Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance in future books? A: No, he doesn't. I have thought this through. If Sirius had married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, haven't I? SSSusan again: It says Harry was born at "the very height of Voldemort fever," not specifically that Harry was in danger. And it says "it looked *as if* the Potters would have to go into hiding," not that they already were. This is perhaps a bit of nitpicking, but it does give a slightly different feel to things -- almost as if the WW and The Order were in danger in general, but not necessarily that the Potters/Harry were known to be specific targets at this point. Siriusly Snapey Susan From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 28 20:17:48 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:17:48 -0000 Subject: Is Regulus the reason? (was Clues Convergent Redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" wrote: > zgirnius: > > OK, you're right, it's a nice, long, involved, theory, mush effort I hope that was MUCH, and not that my theory is *mush* or *mushy* LOL > was clearly put into it, sothe least we could do is comment on it, > especially now that I have a few of my own thoughts off my chest! ;- ) > And it provides a reasonable motive for Snape sincerely wanting to > leave the DEs. > > I find the idea that Snape and Regulus could have had a friendly, > perhaps older brother/younger brother style relationship quite > plausible. They were, as you mention, in the same House at Horwarts, > and Snape did, it seems, cultivate relationships with the *right* > sort of pureblood families like the Malfoys and the Blacks. You did > not mention this in your original post, but it appears that Snape is > still friendly (by Snapish standards, anyway) with Cissy Malfoy, who > is a cousin of Regulus. The position Draco finmds himself in must > remind him of Regulus...and perhaps he feels that much more for Cissy > if he feels he had a hand in killing her cousin? I would assume that > where Sirius despiused Cissy and Bella, Regulus would probably have > had a good relationship with both as they were all into the > whole "toujours pur" thing. > > You mention in your theory the possibility that Snape might have > killed Regulus on LV's orders. This would be kind of interesting in > terms of Snape's relationship with Dumbledore. I can see Snape coming > to him with the story that 'a DE' killed Regulus in LV's orders...but > would he admit it was Snape himself that did it? I think that might > certainly make Snape feel even *worse* about the whole thing, but it > ought to make DD wonder about him...especially in light of the events > of HBP... Of course, even if he did kill Regulus, Snape might keep > that bit from DD. Hmmm. I think I prefer that he did not tell DD, all > in all, though it is your theory, of course. > > I do think that if you're on the right track, and Snape killed > Regulus, the events of HBP must have really opened old wounds for > Snape. He's again in a position where something/someone is forcing > him into a position of killing a friend. Cuold play out in Book 7 in > interesting ways. colebiancardi back now: thank you...this adds on to my theory. I had also posted a fourth possiblity - if Regulus is still alive. added in new 4th possiblity 4. Regulus goes to Snape, dying from the potion he just drank. Snape gives him the antidote. LV tells Snape to kill Regulus. Snape cannot - Regulus is like a brother to him. Instead, Snape takes Regulus to Dumbledore and Dumbledore now hides Regulus. Snape has now become DD's spy the moment he took Regulus to DD. Snape returns to LV and tells LV that he killed Regulus. So, how did DD managed to hide Regulus? Don't know - but when DD is talking to Draco and telling him he(DD) can protect & hide Draco - Draco states that LV will kill him. DD says something very strange at this point...You cannot be killed if you are already dead... which is could be...and that OptionsPink wrote: Here is just another thought.....upon the death of Sirius, #12 would go to the next living Black, therefore it would go to Regulus, if he was truely alive. But in HBP (UK edition Pg. 55) after DD anounces to Harry that he has inherited #12 and confirms it with Kreacher, DD says: "That simplifies matters. It seems that Sirius knew what he was doing." I believe that DD intrusted Sirius to make the neccessay enchantments to ensure that #12 would go to Harry rather Regulus, and DD was either a bit proud or surprised that Sirius actually got the job done properly. colebiancardi back now: DUH! I didn't even think of that! Forgot about #12 - could be that DD was very pleased that his "fake Regulus's death" spell was still holding strong afterall these years and Sirius's death didn't break it. All of these clues and additional information help support my "Regulus Theory" and strengthen it. Thanks so much and any other comments from posters who be highly appreciated. colebiancardi (very pleased that posters are adding their thoughts to my theory) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 20:35:40 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:35:40 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135418 dan wrote: > > I haven't read an entirely convincing, Snape-based explanation > > for it, is all I'm saying the revulsion and hatred needs > > a real explanation, not a rationalization. Leslie41: > Well, no explanation is going to be "entirely convincing." If > Rowling wanted us to be entirely convinced, she would have seen to > it that we were. She didn't. SSSusan: Totally agree. JKR is leaving this wide open on purpose, and is probably enjoying a big grin over all the speculating that's going on. Leslie41: > I believe Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore, dreaded doing it, > and regretted doing it. But did it because it had to be done. > And ask yourself this...if you "had" to kill something you > loved...a beloved dog lying half-dead in the road... what look, as > you pulled the trigger, would be on *your* face? > > Horror. Revulsion. Maybe even something that looked like hate. > > But that doesn't mean you want to kill your dog. SSSusan: I find Leslie's response very compelling. Add to that another possibility which I posted previously in another thread, which is that the hatred & revulsion could be directed at DD not for any weakness Snape senses in him, but because DD is forcing him to return to a place he no longer wants to go: his DE days of using AK and murdering. Yes, yes, I know -- no canon to support what Snape did or did not do as a DE! But there is the *possibility* that Snape engaged in "the usual DE behavior," which might have included the occasional AK. *If* my read of this scene is accurate, then DD IS asking Snape to kill him, which means he is asking Snape to return to performing an action which Snape he *not* want to return to, an action which now repulses him. Not sure if it works for you, Dan, but it works for me. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 20:48:00 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:48:00 -0000 Subject: POLL Update: Clarification of ESE! for the Snape poll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135419 A couple of members of HPfGU have mentioned to the elves that they weren't sure what "ESE!" stood for. Since this term is used extensively in the "What I think about Snape" poll which just opened, I thought it best to address it. ESE! stands for "Ever-So-Evil." A few days ago, Kathy K. posted an excellent description of how this term tends to be used: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134481 Please refer to that post and/or bookmark the link to our Inish Alley database, which is a handy tool for learning what all sorts of abbreviations and acronyms stand for: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database? method=reportRows&tbl=28 Shorty Elf From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 20:48:30 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:48:30 -0000 Subject: I still don't like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135420 Quimpercaradec wrote: "Hi, I come from this far-away country across the Channel, apparently filled with arrogant people ;-), but I still think Fleur's behaviour extremely rude and insensitive ? even ? by french standards ;" Del replies: I second that. I've known some people like Fleur in France, but they are rather an exception, and they are not well tolerated by the other French people, no more than Fleur is tolerated by the Weasleys. Quimpercaradec wrote: "there may be slightly different codes of conduct in each country, but those cultural differences don't stretch that far : even in Paris, you're not supposed to speak constantly about yourself, especially in good, rather than listen to other people, nor is it well-thought of, when you travel abroad, to criticize everything instead of trying to adapt to a new way of life and enjoy it." Del replies: I guess every country has its stereotypes. I know that many French people think that people from one particular country do exactly what Quimpercaradec has described above, that they act very much like Fleur (hint: there are a lot of them on this list, and they are not Brits ;-) From experience, I can say that I have met a few of those people who do act like that (especially among those who have not travelled abroad), but I have also met a lot of them who are not like that at all. It's a stereotype, a caricature. I'm sure that anyone who has ever actually *met* a significant number of French people knows that most are not like Fleur. Fleur is not just a stereotype of French people. She's also a caricature of self-centered beautiful women. I also wonder how much of her personality is due to her Veela blood. Hagrid shows psychological signs of his Giant parentage (his love for monsters, his inability to recognise the danger they pose to the humans around him). Could it be that Fleur's behaviour is partly due to her Veela ancestry? We know very little about Veelas, but they seem to be the embodiment of the ugly person hidden under a beautiful surface. They seem to be concentrating very much on seducing people, while at the same time exhibiting signs of short temper, agressivity, lack of fair play, and so on. So maybe part of Fleur's bad manners could stem from her very biology. Maybe her Veela blood gave her more than just an ability to seduce people, maybe it also gave her a tendency to be self-centered and to not tolerate any kind of competition. Just a possibility, Del From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 20:54:31 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:54:31 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or > even deliberately misleading? [snip] > > Demetra: > The one interview comment that has always troubled me was pre-HPB. > JKR was asked why Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position and > she responded that Dumbledore felt that it might "tempt' (my word) > Snape. > Now, this is either a misleading statement or a huge lapse of logic. > Are we to believe that Dumbledore would worry about temptation by > giving Snape the DADA position, which is about *defense* against the > Dark Arts? The same Dumbledore who has no problem with sending Snape > off to act as a spy amongst the DE's? Wouldn't hanging around with > seriously evil, Dark Arts loving DE's be more of a temptation than > teaching a bunch of schoolkids defense? > Or was Dumbledore's real reason that he knew the position was > cursed? If so, then JKR has indeed been deliberately misleading in > an interview. > > Demetra Doddie here: I do not think she was misleading at all. DD doesn't say he trusts Snape with his life as he does with Hagrid...He states that he trusts Snape! I think he trusts Snape to be Snape! I think DD trusts that Snape will do the easy thing rather than the right thing. I also believe that DD trusts Snape to look out for Snape. I believe DD trusts Snape to be a competent teacher--but doesn't trust him to be a good/wonderful teacher. DD trusts Snape to do the self-serving and even perhaps wrong thing. I think DD is an extremely accomplished leguimens--perhaps even moreso than Voldemort. (Hence in HBP DD states he always watched Tom Riddle closely and T.Riddle could never charm DD as he did with all of his other professors.) If Dumbledore always suspected Tom Riddle, and always saw through Tom Riddle. Then one doesn't need a great leap of faith to think or believe Dumbledore knows exactly what Snape is up to! Doddie. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jul 28 20:56:47 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:56:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Patronus (Patroni?) In-Reply-To: <42E90DBF.000009.03664@D33LDD51> References: <42E90DBF.000009.03664@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <1772193093.20050728135647@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135422 Thursday, July 28, 2005, 9:54:23 AM, Donna wrote: D> Please help me here. I always thought a person's patronus reflected their D> personality. If I'm thinking correctly, how could Tonks' patronus change? My interpretation is that the Patronus takes the form of a being/beast that represents something from which you gain inner strength. Harry gets inner strength from his father's memory, so his Patronus is "Prongs". Tonks is in love with Lupin, to the point that she gets emotional strength from him, so her Patronus is a wolf. -- Dave, whose Patronus is a mermaid From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 21:02:59 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:02:59 -0000 Subject: Aberforth (was: Omniscient Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135423 Jules: ...edited... It's kind of suspicious when the beloved brother of the deceased does not show to his funeral. He's not mentioned any where! Juli now: I had previously posted a reply to Jules' message, but Yahoomort sent it before it was finished, so I deleted it and wrote it again, and yahoo mort ate it!! I'm so mad I had written a lot. Well here it goes again, I hope this time it actually gets delivered. Are you talking about Dumbledore's brother? cause he was at the funeral: "and some people whom Harry merely knew by sight, such as the barman of the Hog's Head and the witch who pushed the trolley on the Hogwarts Express. " On HRH's first trip to Hogsmeade on HBP they meet Aberforth: "One was very tall and thin; squinting through his rain-washed glasses Harry recognized the barman who worked in the other Hogsmeade pub, the Hog's Head" He's mentioned in the DD's memory of when Tom Riddle wants a job "I'm merely on friendly terms with the bartender" In the other books he was also mentioned: On GoF DD tells HRH and Hagrid about his brother who was caught doing improper spells with a goat. In OoP Moody shows Harry the Original OoP, and says Aberforth is a "funny bloke" I think in PoA Harry mentions the "bartender smelled like goat and looked familiar" And at the DA's first meeting at Hogsmeade: "The bartender looked as if he had never seen his bar so crowded". I know he's mentiones other times, but I just can't look through all the books again, sorry I don't have the exact quotes, but I had them in the original post (the one YahooMort ate) Juli From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 21:12:59 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:12:59 -0000 Subject: A line of investigation.. Tom's Special places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135424 > Valky: > > > Are there other moments in Toms life that we know of that suit this > > profile too. They might be the places he left his other Horcruxes. > > > > Any thoughts? > > >Minervakab: > I have been investigating this too. I have been trying to make a > spreadsheet of the places, horcuxes, deaths that created them, then > relating tham back to the seven tasks HHR went through in SS. > > I beleive the important places are Chamber of Secrets, House of Gaunt, > Cave, Riddle House, orphanage, and Godric's Hollow. That is only six > though. {SNIP} > Lyra now Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions, but I feel this statement from JKR's recent interview may be related in some way (tho how is another question). JKR: My feeling is that Phoenix is overlong, but I challenge anyone to find the obvious place to cut. There are places that I would prune, now, looking back, but ...(short snip) You need what's in there if I'm going to play fair for the reader in the resolution in book seven. One of the reasons "Phoenix" is so long is that I had to move Harry around a lot, physically. There were places he had to go he had never been before, and that took time ? to get him there, to get him away. (end of her comment) So, she seems to indicate that some place Harry went in OOTP will be relevant in #7. The "new" places I recall him going to are: #12 Grimmauld; the Ministry of Magic (includng the DoM); St. Mungo's; and some places in Hogsmeade, where The Hogs Head would seem to be the most interesting/likely candidate of the lot (somehow, I can't imagine revisiting Madame Puddifoot's in the resolution). Of course, the fact that someplace from OOTP will be relevent in the next book doesn't mean it will be the location of a horcrux, but to be thorough, I thought they should be mentioned and given at least a cursory examination. Lyra From leslie41 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 19:57:54 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:57:54 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135425 Dan wrote: > Don't get me wrong, folks. I'm not shrugging off your suggestions. But > neither explanation has that convincing authentic ring - these are > very nearly, or almost explanations, just like the others I mentioned. > If I had been so silly as to make an unbreakable vow to help Draco in > his task without knowing what that task was, not only would I be an > abysmally stupid person, and I don't think Snape is abysmally stupid, > but I wouldn't, upon discoving the truth, feel hatred and revulsion, > but horror at what I would, I suddenly found out, have to do. Revulsion *is* horror. It's one of its synonyms. And Snape wasn't stupid to make that vow. His main goal at Spinner's End was not to protect Draco or soothe Narcissa. His main goal was to eradicate Bellatrix's deep distrust of him. That's part of the reason why he took the vow. He accomplishes this goal handily. Bellatrix is "astounded" by his vow, her eyes wide with surprise. She did not think he would do it, and now she has no excuse to distrust him or to take her suspicions to Voldemort. Killing Dumbledore completely cements Snape's position within Voldemort's ranks. Dan: > If I had to put down an injured animal, I would feel pity. This too is > not hatred and revulsion. You might feel that. I would be horrified and repulsed. Dan: > The only one so far that makes any sense is precisely what Leslie says > is impossible. Leslie, how did you come up with this description? It's > almost as if your arguement against it is based on an actual reading > of it, possibly your immediate response, that you have subsequently > rejected. At any rate, I think the text absolutely DOES read this way. > > leslie41: > > "Please what, old man? 'Please don't kill me'? I've been waiting for > this moment for years, you pathetic, crumbling excuse for a > wizard...Aveda Kedavra!" Nope. I wrote that description myself with the text at hand, modifying it so that it made plain what the text does not: that is, the text does not demonstrate that Snape hates DD or that he wants to kill him. The text reads: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." He says nothing to DD. Just "AK" and that's it. Then, after that (according to Harry) "It's over." My point in rewriting it was to show that Rowling most definitely wants there to be ambiguity in how we view Snape at this point. If she wanted his motives and his feelings toward DD to be plain, she would have written in (as I suggested) a glare instead of a gaze, and made the recipient of the hatred and revulsion extremely clear. Then, she would have shown Snape gloating before or after he delivered the AK. She did none of that. Snape *gazes*. A gaze is a long, fixed look. And his eyes don't "glitter" as they usually do when he's discovered something particularly pleasing to him. If this is his ultimate victory--if DD is his nemesis--why not gloat? Why not say "You worthless pathetic old man" as he kills him? That wouldn't offend the Death Eaters, certainly. The killing of DD is distinguished most not by what *is* in there, but what's *not*, and what we would have every right to expect if Snape really did hate DD. Look back at the end of PoA, when Snape discovers Lupin and Black at the Shrieking Shack. Page 360, to be precise. Snape truly and deeply hates Black, loathes him with every bone and fiber of his being. And he is very eager to gloat. "Vengeance is very sweet...how I hoped I would be the one to catch you." Rowling doesn't want us to peg Snape as ESE. That's evident throughout the entire book. She doesn't want to make things that easy for us, or for Harry. Leslie41 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 28 21:30:23 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:30:23 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135426 Merrylinks: > > In spite of Harry's warning that Draco has fixed something and > that Hogwarts is in danger, Dumbledore dismisses Harry's fears and > chooses to go to the cave to hunt for the Horcrux. As a result, > Hogwarts will be invaded by Death Eaters, including one who is a > notorious werewolf. Jen: Dumbledore is very intent on Harry not getting side-tracked by the Draco situation. Since Harry is prone to reckless choices at times, I think that's probably a wise decision. And Dumbledore may not be ignoring what Harry tells him either, just trying to redirect him back to the more important business at hand. I don't believe Dumbledore knew the extent of Draco's plan, i.e. the Vanishing cabinents nor DE invasion. But he knew Draco was attempting to kill him. He's not at all surprised when Draco corners him on the tower. As to how much he knew about the Unbreakable Vow and Snape's role, well depends on Snape's loyalty now, doesn't it ? Mainly I think DD felt it extremely crucial Harry focus on the Horcruxes and leave the rest to him. Mistake? Maybe, but only in retrospect. After all, DD would find his potential death a must less interesting question than the permanent defeat of Voldemort. Merrylinks: > I think Dumbledore is seeing his future.< > As Dumbledore drinks the potion, he says, "Make it stop;" "It's > all my fault;" "Don't hurt them;" "Please...no not that." All of > these are consistent with what he is going to learn when he arrives > at the Astronomy Tower. Jen: You know, you may be right. He seemed to be reliving his past mistakes, but actually Voldemort would find it much more interesting to force someone to see his own death, wouldn't he?? The thing Voldemort fears the most. He assumes everyone would be tortured by the thought. But DD doesn't fear dying or the ways he might die. My only quibble, if he's seeing the future: Dumbledore seems to be begging and pleading in the cave, something he doesn't do on the Astronomy Tower (I'm of the camp he's not begging Snape to spare his life, but asking him to do what he must). The begging and pleading still makes me think he's being flooded with past memories, exaggerated many times over and magnified by the potion. Kemper writes in post #135399: > I don't think LV cares how someone worked through his protections, > he would understand the possibility. What he does care about, you > mentioned, is how the person located the cave. > >If I were LV, I would be thinking, "If the cave was discovered, then >so was some of my past. What do they know about me? Are my other >soul pieces safe?! M. effer!!!" Jen: Just to be picky, DD does say this: "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent on empyting the basin." (Chap. 26, p. 569, US) So you don't believe DD is right, that instead Voldemort would be more concerned with concealing his past? Jen From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 21:41:05 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:41:05 -0000 Subject: Harrry the Horcrux - Body and Soul Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135427 bboyminn: First, my appologise to people who have challenged my Horcrux positions in previous posts. Post count is running very high and my energy level has been running very low, so I haven't had time to do the research necessary to respond point by point. My position is not to challenge the idea that a part of Voldemort's soul could be in Harry, though I personally doubt it; it's to challenge people jumping into Horcrux applications without first trying to understand the Horcrux itself. Anything can be a Horcrux; my computer keyboard, my car keys, my drinking glass,...anything, but what is the likelihood? Harry's morning breakfast cereal could be a Horcrux, but what are the odds? Further, I believe if you take the time to understand the nature of the Horcrux, you wiil see that it's unlikely for Harry to be one. True you can fantasize that the pre-prepared Horcrux somehow magically jumped out of Voldemort's pocket and by magical happenstance happened to hit Harry on the forehead giving him a scar, but that still doesn't explain anything other that some object falling from Voldemort's pocket. That's simply not enough to make Harry a Horcrux. People have jumped way too quickly into speculating how Horcruxes are or could be used without examining the nature of the Horcrux itself. I'm not against half-baked ideas, I have plenty of my own, but I think we would all be a lot better off if we first discussed the nature, creation, and application of Horcrux in general, then once we had some foundation and understanding, theoretical as it may be, we could discuss the specific applications of the Horcrux. Based on my understanding of the vague and general nature of the Horcrux, I don't see how Harry could be one with out some great and very substantial leaps of faith. Certainly some 'bit' of Voldemort is in Harry, that's a fact, but we don't really know if that 'bit' is part of Voldemort's soul or part of his earthy essense. I used the term 'earthy essense' before, and someone suggested that it was just another way of saying 'soul'. But there is a big divide between body and soul. Soul is a broad and general spiritual essense which does not identify with the body, or with earthly talents or powers. The body is merely the vehicle that carries the Soul around for this lifetime. A Ghost is, in a manner of speaking, merely a soul that is afraid of letting go of it's vehicle. Or more correctly, the earthly essense of a being is afraid to let go of it's earthly identity, and so the soul is trapped in the half-life of a ghost; neither body or soul. My point here is to make a distinction between what is earthly essense, what is spirit, and what is soul, and to illustrate how clinging to earthly indentity prevents a spirit from crossing over into pure soul. It is the total divorce and abandonment of all things earthly that bring out the essense of soul. I believe what was tranferred to Harry is part of Voldemort's earthy vehicle, and not part of his soul. His ability to speak Parsle Tongue is part of Voldemort's earthy essense, part of his earthly identity. It's not associated with the true pure spiritual essense of his soul. Further, when it is and has been so blatantly obvious that a part of Voldemort is in Harry, how could Dumbledore not conclude that that 'part' was a part of Voldemort's soul? Dumbledore would have to be completely retarted to have not already have thought of it. In HBP, Dumbledore talks of part of Voldemort being in Harry and in nearly the same breath speaks of the Horcrux. Seriously, he would have to be near brain dead not to make the connection, but he doesn't. That tell me that he considered it and rejected the idea. That further tells me that it is some part of Voldemort's earthly self that is in Harry and not part of Voldemort's soul. I'm not saying the story couldn't go in the direction of Harry being a container for part of Voldemort's soul. I'm simply saying that after careful analysis of what I believe is the nature of the Horcrux; I don't see how Harry could end up being one; at least not without huge unprecidented leaps of the imagination. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From Sherry at PebTech.net Thu Jul 28 21:08:10 2005 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:08:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grand Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135428 Phoenixmum wrote: > What better way to place trusted Snape in a position to protect > Harry than to give LV the ultimate reason to trust Snape: killing > the feared rival, DD. I interpret the overheard argument between > DD and Snape in the forest to be about DD insisting that maintaining > Snape's cover is essential, and that Snape must do anything, even > kill DD, to do so, and Snape resisting. After drinking the > potion in the cave, DD insists on getting to Snape, and no one > else. Snape can either save DD from the effect of the potion or, if > the DD's death is inevitable, Snape will have the opportunity to > appear to "kill" DD. A friend of mine proposed a similar theory about Dumbledore's death, with one twist: that he might already be dying. She suggested that the curse on the ring, which injured his right hand, was actually terminal. In this theory, DD chose to sacrifice his life at a time and in a way that would hurt Voldemort's plan as much as possible. During the argument in the forest, he insisted that Snape *must* kill him if and when he decided it was necessary. He may well have made Snape promise or swear that he would obey, as he did Harry, and he was reminding Snape of that when he said "Severus" on the rooftop. Amontillada From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 21:54:00 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:54:00 -0000 Subject: Timeline for Snape's change of heart (was: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135429 SSSusan: >> Two thoughts here. First, re: Mooseming's potential timeline. Could it be possible that Snape was *still* on the side of Voldy at the time he started working at Hogwarts? Perhaps he was pretending to have joined DD's side but was still loyal to Voldy? And then, he **did** get access to that list of births and, when he did, discovered James and Lily's son was on the list? And *this* knowledge then caused him to switch sides for real? << HunterGreen (hello SSSusan): The text appears to support that timeline, at least in the Spinner's End (it was a possibility I mentioned upthread). However, if it did work out that way, it would have been rather hard for Dumbledore to trust him, don't you think? First he *pretends* to repent his ways, then he *really* repents them and goes to Dumbledore explaining that the first time he was faking....wouldn't that seem a little off to Dumbledore? I suppose if he was admitting to telling Voldemort that the Potters were now a *direct* target, then it might make Dumbledore trust him a little more, but if he had believed him the first time, during the time Snape admits (for the sake of this timeline) he was faking, how would he ever believe him again? This timeline continues to confuse me, unless I look at it from the point-of-view that Snape never switched sides at all. Because if he didn't, we know why Dumbledore would think that he did (because Snape did, on Voldemort's orders, go to him and pretent to repent his ways). If he was faking, and always faking, then it makes sense. Otherwise, I can't seem to work it out (unless Snape and Dumbledore somehow gave Voldemort the idea of sending Snape to Hogwarts....which just seems unlikely). -Rebecca / HunterGreen From slmuth at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 21:56:34 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:56:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135430 In HBP Harry says to DD "Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?" (p 549 US HC) Taking Harry at his word, I've been wondering which deaths in addition to DD's Snape might arguably be responsible for. (Just for the sake of this post, let's assume that Snape is, on some level, a bad guy. Some of these deaths would make him truly evil, and others would make him seem more opportunistic But I'm not trying to convince anyone who's not already convinced that Snape is, in fact, ESE.) So, here are the possibilities for Snape's other victims as I see them, in chronological order: 1. James. Evidence for this is based on Harry's thoughts in HBP p 545: "It was Snape who had overheard the prophecy. It was Snape who had carried the news of the prophecy to Voldemort. Snape and Peter Pettigrew together had sent Voldemort hunting after Lily and James and their son " So, as Harry deduces, Snape had the means, motive, and opportunity to convince LV that Harry was the boy in the prophecy, and set things up so that his old enemy James would "end up dead." Evidence against Snape's responsibility here is that a) DD believed Snape had made a huge mistake in telling LV about the prophecy and consequently had switched sides prior to the attack on the Potters; and b) Snape's reference to James refusing to believe that Sirius was a spy (implying that Snape may have tried to warn James). But, we know now that Snape has been effectively hoodwinking DD, so both of these points could be based on lies In my mind the jury is still out, but there's a good possibility Snape is partially responsible for James' death. 2. Barty Crouch Sr. In GOF Snape prevents Harry from quickly informing DD that BC Sr. is on the grounds, giving Fake!Moody an opportunity to kill Sr. 3. Barty Crouch Jr. In GOF it is Snape who tells Fudge that they've caught a Death Eater inside the Castle. He could have taken the opportunity to convince Fudge that "his personal safety was in question" so that Fudge brought the Dementor with him, giving it a chance to suck BC Jr.'s soul. The result is that Jr. is not able to testify that he was acting on Voldemort's orders ? thus giving Voldemort a year of grace before the WW acknowledges that he is back. (Nice birthday gift for his old master, not to mention proof of his loyalty.) Plus, Jr. and Snape were antagonistic to each other all year; and Snape may have been afraid that Jr. would convince LV that he (Snape) had turned traitor. So again, Snape has means, motive, and opportunity. Evidence against Snape's responsibility is that he voluntarily showed Fudge the Dark Mark on his arm to help convince him that LV was really back Of course, this also would demonstrate to everyone present that Snape had NOT returned to LV when the Dark Mark burned. 4. Sirius. In HBP, Snape tells Bella that his information "certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, although I give you full credit for finishing him off." (p 30) So at a minimum, Snape claims to have passed info that contributed to Sirius' death. But he may have done more. He may have been using a multi-pronged approach to goad Sirius into taking a risk that would get him killed or captured. In OOP we see overt examples of Snape taunting Sirius for being a "coward." Snape is also the one who supposedly asked Sirius to remain behind at OOP headquarters when everyone else went to help Harry at the Ministry. (see p 830 US HD) He may have lied to DD about what he actually said, or he may have asked in such a snide and insulting way that he actually provoked Sirius to go. Finally, there is that theory that was floating around after OOP came out about someone secretly slipping Sirius a Befuddlement Draught, causing hot-headedness and recklessness. (See Message #93021 for the beginning of the original string on the subject). Snape could have been giving it to Sirius himself on his visits to 12GP, or he could have given it to Kreacher to give to Sirius. Snape's hatred of Sirius, plus the fact that Sirius suspected Snape would have provided an adequate motive. (Makes me wonder what Sirius heard in Azkaban about Snape ) 5. Emmeline Vance. Based on Snape's own claim to have provided information that led to her murder. So I'm not saying I'm totally convinced that Snape is involved in every one of these deaths, but it seems worth reconsidering in the light of the HBP. Janeway From missygallant2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 21:59:18 2005 From: missygallant2000 at yahoo.com (Missy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:59:18 -0000 Subject: Possible reason for giving Snape the job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135431 Not the job at Hogwarts, but the job as DADA Professor. I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. And I think one of the reasons that he got the job is because of McGonagal. She made a vow that she would see to it that Harry was made an auror. And I think that maybe she convinced DD to give him the job, so that someone else could do Potions, and based on Harry's OWL grade, he would be able to continue his coursework. And that would enable him to eventually become an auror. Missy (Who is still a E!SE Snape person) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 21:59:48 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:59:48 EDT Subject: Lily apparating with Harry Message-ID: <215.5b8aa60.301aaf54@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135432 I've lost the thread, so I'll have to start a new one. Roberta writes: >"Unrelated question: in this book, we learn beyond a doubt that it is >possible to take someone with you as a sort of passenger when you Disapparate. >So why on earth didn't Lily and James Disapparate from Godric's Hollow with Harry >That Night??? Lily at least would likely have had time to do it." Harry describes the experience as quite unpleasant: "Harry felt Dumbledore's arm twist away and redoubled his grip; the next thing he knew,everything went black; he was being pressed very hard from all directions; he could not breathe; there were iron bands tightening around his chest; his eyeballs were being forced back into his head; his eardrums were being pushed deeper into his skull and then -- "He gulped great lungfuls of cold night air and opened his streaming eyes. He felt as though he had just been forced through a very tight rubber tube." (US edition p. 58) It's quite possible that apparating/disapparating with a baby will harm or even kill the baby. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madam_marozi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:02:13 2005 From: madam_marozi at yahoo.com (Madam Marozi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Patronus (Patroni?) In-Reply-To: <1772193093.20050728135647@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050728220213.24813.qmail@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135433 Dave: > Tonks is in love with Lupin, to the point > that she gets > emotional strength from him, so her Patronus is a > wolf. Marozi: I think you're right, but I find it a bit weird. Lupin hates and fears the wolf. He doesn't consider it his "true self" at all. Using it to represent him as a Patronus seems a little more...problematic than using someone's animagus form. Still, it probably doesn't mean anything. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:08:38 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:08:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135434 Janeway: > In HBP Harry says to DD "Haven't you noticed, Professor, how > the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?" (p 549 US HC) > Taking Harry at his word, I've been wondering which deaths in > addition to DD's Snape might arguably be responsible for. Alla: Heee, well done post. :-) It does seem that dear Severus may have more blood on his hands than we ever suspected. Janeway: > So, here are the possibilities for Snape's other victims as I see > them, in chronological order: > > 1. James. In my mind > the jury is still out, but there's a good possibility Snape is > partially responsible for James' death. Alla: Well, actually, on all other supposed victims the jury may be still out, but isn't it a given now that Snape INDEED at least partially responsible for James' death. Simply by virtue of telling prophecy to Voldemort in the first palce he set the chain of events in making that lead to Potters' death. I am thinking now that even if Snape will turn out to be innocent in Dumbledore's death ( which personally I doubt), he would never repay to Harry all that he owes to him, since he directly contributed to him becoming an orphan in the first place. Janeway: > So I'm not saying I'm totally convinced that Snape is > involved in every one of these deaths, but it seems worth > reconsidering in the light of the HBP. > Alla: Agreed, also at home I have a link to Neri's brilliant post about Snape's not informing the Order about kids rushing to the ministry right away. Hmmm, what was he waiting for in light of what we know now? JMO of course, Alla From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 22:09:14 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:09:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135435 Janeway wrote: >>2. Barty Crouch Sr. In GOF Snape prevents Harry from quickly informing DD that BC Sr. is on the grounds, giving Fake!Moody an opportunity to kill Sr.<< HunterGreen: Ah, actually, that's a common misconception, Snape actually helped Harry out here. >>> But nothing at Hogwarts had ever moved just because he shouted at it; he knew it was no good. He looked up and down the dark corridor. Perhaps Dumbledore was in the staffroom? He started running as fast as he could toward the staircase - "POTTER!" Harry skidded to a halt and looked around. Snape had just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle. The wall was sliding shut behind him even as he beckoned Harry back toward him. >>> [GoF, chpt 28] Harry was *leaving* to go the wrong way when Snape *called him back*. This isn't the whole quote, but Snape taunts Harry for about a minute before Dumbledore appears from the stairs. Since Snape was just up there, its an easy deduction that he knew Dumbledore was on his way down behind him. He just was using the moment to give Harry a hard time, rather than just telling him Dumbledore was coming down. After all, Snape is Snape. And Harry, being Harry, assumes later that it was Snape's fault he didn't get to Dumbledore in time. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From pansophy2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:06:02 2005 From: pansophy2000 at yahoo.com (pansophy2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:06:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grand Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135436 Sherry wrote: > A friend of mine proposed a similar theory about Dumbledore's death, > with one twist: that he might already be dying. My own variation on this theme is that Snape has helped Dumbledore fake his own death. The advantage here is that with Voldermort believing Dumbledore is dead, he would come out of hiding and take risks he wouldn't otherwise take if DD was alive and kicking. and thus increasing the liklihood that he can be killed. The method, perhaps, was the liquid Harry forced Dumbledore to drink at the horocrux site, which could have really been a potion devised by Dumbledore/Snape to put the drinker into suspended animation for several days. Snape triggers the final step of the potion with a silent spell, feigns the forbidden curse, and leaves as if he has killed DD. Harry of course confirms everything as do the death eaters, so all believe DD is dead, Snape is trusted above all, and Voldermort feels invincible...not to mention this is the perfect cover for DD. When he awakes after a few days buried in the ground, he simply appartates to the location of his choosing. Frankly, given Harry's complete inability to handle even Snape makes Voldermort's death at his hands rather unrealistic without the kind of help he has had in every other book in the series. If DD is truly dead, does Harry have the ability to succeed? >From a story-telling point of view I suppose it would make Harry's success all the more herotic with DD at his side. On the other hand, DD's death is a hard pill for me to swallow given that he will have died showing the 'weakness' of trust, when it close relative 'love' is supposed to ultimately destroy Voldermort. But perhaps that does capture the paradox of life... -pan From timregan at microsoft.com Thu Jul 28 22:15:46 2005 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:15:46 +0100 Subject: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211928@EUR-MSG-20.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135437 Hi All, I'm at Accio 2005 and heard from Troels Forchhammer via Ali Hewison a very strange omission in the UK version of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Dumbledore is back from drinking that awful potion and he is in his office trying to persuade Malfoy to repent. Here's what he says in the UK edition: <<< What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... >>> In the USA edition there are two addition sentences between those two, the latter one sees Dumbledore suggesting that the Order could fake Narcissa's abduction and death since the Death Eaters would be expecting it. (Sorry, I didn't bring a USA edition back up to my room to transcribe.) I can understand language changes, but why would Bloomsbury cut two sentences, or Scholastic add them? Cheers, Dumbledad. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:20:06 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:20:06 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135438 zgirnius: The difficulty with this discussion is that we do not know the motivations for *any* of Snape's actions. And how we would construe any one of them clearly rests to some extent on how we had construed the others. And what, generally, we expect of him. For example, if you're mostly convinced Snape is a Death Eater, Chapter 2 can read like a confirmation of this opinion. If you think he's spying for the Order, you may see things differently. I've personally been doubtful Snape is a loyal DE. (I tend to believe that he is a morally flawed character who has some personal reasons for siding with the Order). So I assumed that in that chapter we finally saw him engaged in spying for the Order, as GoF suggests he does. (At least, it suggests DD *believes* he does...) It seemed obvious to me that he did not know the task, but deduced from the remarks made that it was a big deal of the sort it would be worthwhile to sniff out. It also seemed to me that he was oddly affected by Cissy's emotional outbursts. (Oddly because it did not seem to fit my earlier conceptions of the guy...) In the conversation directly preceeding the first mention of a UV, Cissy asks that Snape do two things-to watch over Draco and protect him from harm while Draco carries on the asssignment. When Snape agreed to the UV, I took this to me an indication that he expected to confirm he would do those two things. (His motives would include some intention to help Cissy, and the hope of using the added trust to worm out the details of the task, in exchange for protecting Dracfo, which he could do. He could even expect DD to help with *that*.) And he did, but then Cissy continued (and Snape was obviously surprised/nervous, as his hand twitched.) Was he stupid not to back out at that point? I can't decide how suspicious it would look to agree to the first 2 clauses and not the third, from LV's point of view if this conversation got back to him (via Bella, most likely). But then Snape would have had to decide this in a split second, so I could see him making either decision, and could see either decision at this point being a mistake. Why am I dwelling so long on this unrelated scene when you asked about the tower? Well, in my reading, again, Snape works out what the task is at some point, and then is faced with a decision. He doesn't want to kill DD, (he does not want to help LV, also, working with DD and having his trust for all these years may have some meaning to him) but does not see a way out of it for himself. So to me that hate and revulsion was obviously self-directed. When the choice is forced upon him at the end of the book he chooses to kill DD and save himself. This is a guy who appears to be hung up on courage (note his comments in other books to Sirius, and his contempt for Pettigrew...) I found this view to be confirmed soon after in his extreme reaction to being called a coward by Harry. vmonte responds: Nice post, Zigirnius. I think you're right. I also believe that Snape felt that he had no choice but to kill Dumbledore. (I do not believe that Dumbledore asked to die-JMO.) I also agree with you that Snape has big issues with courage. There must be a reason why James and gang called him Snivellus. (And who knows what his home life was like. Did someone call him a coward at home?) I'm reminded of Sirius's comment to Wormtail in PoA (I'm not sure whether this is movie contamination) that if he was in his shoes he would have died for James. Wormtail instead chose to save his own skin. I think that Snape did too. If Snape is not ESE, then he will rationalize his actions. "Dumbledore was going to die anyway...I can help more outside of Hogwarts..." Unfortunately, I'm having trouble believing this theory. I also think that Snape has known about the horcruxes since Godric's Hollow (or at least since Regulus's death). Vivian From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:17:16 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Re: Losing fans for no good reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728221716.97683.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135439 Sienna: I can't help but feel that this comment was meant for people like myself who had a different shipping preference from what eventuated. But I think that I've personally done enough to try to present a critic that is fair. It should be clear by now that it's not about `fantasies being screwed with' but I suppose it's an easy enough anvil to throw. I just think HBP lacks the skill I came to expect from her and I personally find Ginny's character development poor. And no, clearly we're not reading the same books. An alternative question to ask might be does a preference for H/G actually blind some people to the flaws in that subplot? Lynda: In a series as long as this one, I expect some characters to develop more slowly. In OOP I was delighted with Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Luna, as well as finally delving a little more fully into the characters of Neville, Sirius, Snape, Ginny Weasley and Ernie MacMillan, to name a few. Many of these, we still don't know well. They are minor characters. Neville and Ginny, however, as well as Ernie, and to some extent Luna are being used a bit more as the series continues and we're learning more about them. Yes, Ginny was kept in the background for awhile. These books are written almost exclusively from Harry's point of view and Harry, until this book saw Ginny as his "best mate's sister". Not as a potential love interest. But there were plenty of clues there, as to the possibility of a potential relationship between them. After all, the romantic relationships aren't the real focus of the books. And there's one more to go. Things could change by the end of book 7. Maybe Harry and Ginny won't be a match. After all, Harry will only be nearly 18 at the end of book seven, at least if she ends it in the same timeframe as the others. Lynda From muellem at bc.edu Thu Jul 28 22:24:17 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:24:17 -0000 Subject: Question about Patronus (Patroni?) In-Reply-To: <20050728220213.24813.qmail@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madam Marozi wrote: > > > Dave: > > > Tonks is in love with Lupin, to the point > > that she gets > > emotional strength from him, so her Patronus is a > > wolf. > > > Marozi: > > I think you're right, but I find it a bit weird. > Lupin hates and fears the wolf. He doesn't consider > it his "true self" at all. Using it to represent him > as a Patronus seems a little more...problematic than > using someone's animagus form. Still, it probably > doesn't mean anything. > ahh. but it could. It could mean that Tonks accepts and is not repulsed by Lupin's wolfy form. That she loves him for who he is and all that he is. She is not scared of making that next step with him. colebiancardi (fourth post - and last one for the day....feeling guilty here....) From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:27:39 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:27:39 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135441 > vmonte: > I also agree with you that Snape has big issues with courage. There > must be a reason why James and gang called him Snivellus. Must there be a reason for Malfoy to call Hermione a Mudblood? Or to say that Potter stinks? I suppose it must, but it has nothing to do with Harry's personal hygiene. Snape might be `ESE', but he's hardly a coward. a_svirn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 28 22:29:18 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:29:18 -0000 Subject: Timeline for Snape's change of heart (was: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135442 SSSusan earlier presented a slight adjustment possibility to Mooseming's timeline. HunterGreen responded: > The text appears to support that timeline, at least in the > Spinner's End. However, if it did work out that way, it would have > been rather hard for Dumbledore to trust him, don't you think? > First he *pretends* to repent his ways, then he *really* repents > them and goes to Dumbledore explaining that the first time he was > faking....wouldn't that seem a little off to Dumbledore? I suppose > if he was admitting to telling Voldemort that the Potters were now > a *direct* target, then it might make Dumbledore trust him a > little more, but if he had believed him the first time, during the > time Snape admits (for the sake of this timeline) he was faking, > how would he ever believe him again? SSSusan: Yes, this could be problematic. If I could draw attention to my own little ship in the Bay, however, I still think DRIBBLE SHADOWS [128717 & following] is afloat as a possibility here. (Well, she ain't a-sailing mightily about, but she's not sunk either, I don't think.) In that theory, it was proposed that what Snape did to convince DD was actually help CREATE some kind of protective potion/ointment for Harry. Thus, it wasn't just Snape's *word* that he'd switched sides or that he cared what happened to the Potters; it was his willingness to *work* to protect Harry, to develop and apply some protection to him, proving he wanted Harry to live. Actions speak louder than words, IOW. Huntergreen: > This timeline continues to confuse me, unless I look at it from > the point-of-view that Snape never switched sides at all. > If he was faking, and always faking, then it makes sense. SSSusan: Yes, that is a possibility, as well, though not one I find particularly compelling. I tend to believe Snape's membership in the DEs was a true membership, and that his turn away from Voldy was a true change of heart. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 28 22:32:08 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:32:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Toni" wrote: > Toni: > > In my copy of HBP (UK Hardback) no where in his talk with Draco > > does Dumbledore says that he would hide Draco and make it seem > > like he is dead. It says (UK Hardback page 552 and 553) "Come > > over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more > > completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can > > send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her > > likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... when > > the time comes we can protect him too" > > Does the US version say that he would hide him making him looking > > like he is dead??? > Sue: > It says (US p591) "Come over to the right side Draco, and we can > hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is > more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to > hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in > your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably > expexts it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had > captured and killed you mother-it is what they would do themselves, > after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban....When the > time comes, we can protect him too." > There you have it. I wonder why we got that edit? > Sue(hpfan) Geoff: But Rachel, in message 134207, quotes the following.... > page 591-592 > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely then you can > possibly imagine." ...which gave rise the whole thread, because the first sentence does not occur in the UK/Canadian editions. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 22:40:48 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:40:48 -0000 Subject: I still don't like Fleur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135444 > Del replies: > I also wonder how much of her personality is due to her Veela blood. > Hagrid shows psychological signs of his Giant parentage (his love for > monsters, his inability to recognise the danger they pose to the > humans around him). Could it be that Fleur's behaviour is partly due > to her Veela ancestry? We know very little about Veelas, but they seem > to be the embodiment of the ugly person hidden under a beautiful > surface. They seem to be concentrating very much on seducing people, > while at the same time exhibiting signs of short temper, agressivity, > lack of fair play, and so on. So maybe part of Fleur's bad manners > could stem from her very biology. Maybe her Veela blood gave her more > than just an ability to seduce people, maybe it also gave her a > tendency to be self-centered and to not tolerate any kind of competition. I think that is a very good point Del. One of the reasons why I think Fleur is so interesting is her inhuman ancestory. Considering that she is not even half veela but still has pretty formidable powers I would venture that Veela genes are very dominant will take a long time to dilute to any significant degree. Also considering that her race seems to be completely female I wonder if somehow Fleur might not be establishing her status as the alpha female in the group--'cause lets face it, that girl's got more alpha in her pinkie than the other three women combined. phoenixgod2000 From scarah at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 22:43:22 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:43:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marvolo's ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <320259050728154355ce3fda@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135445 Wanda: > Has anyone heard > of the Peverell family before? Are they an extinct family, perhaps? Sarah: William the Conqueror is supposed to have had an illegitimate son named William de Peverell. Whether this is supposed to hint at the origins of Tom Riddle, or JKR just liked the name, I do not know. Sarah From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jul 28 22:45:36 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:45:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Aberforth (was: Omniscient Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1489072875.20050728154536@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135446 Thursday, July 28, 2005, 2:02:59 PM, jlnbtr wrote: j> I think in PoA Harry mentions the "bartender smelled like goat and j> looked familiar" No, this was in _OoP_, and I think the reason he looks so familiar is that Harry has recently seen him -- in Moody's photo. -- Dave From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:45:11 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:45:11 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135447 Thanks for replying to my post. Here are some further thoughts: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Merrylinks: > > > > In spite of Harry's warning that Draco has fixed something and > > that Hogwarts is in danger, Dumbledore dismisses Harry's fears and > > chooses to go to the cave to hunt for the Horcrux. As a result, > > Hogwarts will be invaded by Death Eaters, including one who is a > > notorious werewolf. > > Jen: Dumbledore is very intent on Harry not getting side-tracked by > the Draco situation. Since Harry is prone to reckless choices at > times, I think that's probably a wise decision. And Dumbledore may > not be ignoring what Harry tells him either, just trying to redirect > him back to the more important business at hand. > > I don't believe Dumbledore knew the extent of Draco's plan, i.e. the > Vanishing cabinents nor DE invasion. But he knew Draco was > attempting to kill him. He's not at all surprised when Draco corners > him on the tower. Here is what Harry said to DD just before they left for the cave: "You're leaving the school tonight, and I'll bet you haven't even considered that Snape and Malfoy might decide to --" "To what?" asked Dumbledore, his eyebrows raised. "What is it that you suspect them of doing, precisely?" "I...they're up to something?" said Harry..."Professor Trelawney was just in the Room of Requirement...and she heard Malfoy whooping, celebrating! He's trying to mend something dangerous in there and if you ask me, he's fixed it at last and you're about to just walk out of school without --" "Enough," said Dumbledore. He said it quite calmly, and yet Harry fell silent at once; he knew that he had finally crossed some invisible line. "Do you think that I have once left the school unprotected during my absences this year? I have not. Tonight, when I leave, there will again be additional protection in place. Please do not suggest that I do not take the safety of my students seriously, Harry." "I didn't --" mumbled Harry, a little abashed, but Dumbledore cut across him. "I do not wish to discuss the matter any further." The way I read that, Harry's concern is not Draco, but the safety of the school. Dumbledore dismisses his concern. If Dumbledore's boggart is causing other people suffering or death because of his own mistakes, he has now set himself up to experience that very thing. (We agree that DD is not worried about Draco's attempts on his life.) > > Merrylinks: > > I think Dumbledore is seeing his future.< > > > As Dumbledore drinks the potion, he says, "Make it stop;" "It's > > all my fault;" "Don't hurt them;" "Please...no not that." All of > > these are consistent with what he is going to learn when he > arrives > > at the Astronomy Tower. > > > Jen: You know, you may be right. He seemed to be reliving his past > mistakes, but actually Voldemort would find it much more interesting > to force someone to see his own death, wouldn't he?? The thing > Voldemort fears the most. He assumes everyone would be tortured by > the thought. But DD doesn't fear dying or the ways he might die. > > My only quibble, if he's seeing the future: Dumbledore seems to be > begging and pleading in the cave, something he doesn't do on the > Astronomy Tower (I'm of the camp he's not begging Snape to spare his > life, but asking him to do what he must). The begging and pleading > still makes me think he's being flooded with past memories, > exaggerated many times over and magnified by the potion. My read on DD's begging and pleading in the cave is that it's not for himself, but for the safety of the students. If you are right, if the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort of like an extreme dementor attack, then DD's constant pleading is consistent with that. On the Tower he acts more in character, but recall that when DD says, "Severus...", it says, "The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading." Pleading, not for himself, but for the safety of the students, just as he had in an extreme way in the cave. What do you think? Merrylinks P.S I like your idea that Voldemort would find it much more interesting to force someone to see his own death because that is what Voldemort himself fears the most. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:45:36 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition In-Reply-To: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211928@EUR-MSG-20.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050728224536.20918.qmail@web32704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135448 Tim Regan wrote: Here's what he says in the UK edition: <<< What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... >>> In the USA edition there are two addition sentences between those two, Lynn: The two sentences in between are: "Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all." (US p. 592) Gee, I love having both editions - now I'm wondering if I should bring both to Accio. (Reminder to self - PACK) I would guess there was an editing error as to really doesn't add something new to the mix. Narcissa figured Draco was given the assignment so he would be killed and we know the Death Eaters aren't very nice people and will kill as Voldemort tells them to kill. test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Thu Jul 28 22:47:14 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:47:14 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135449 lupinlore > wrote: > And yet what has JKR ever told us that's been shown to be wrong or > even deliberately misleading? [snip] houyhnhnm: But she loves to equivocate. (I'd find some examples if I weren't at the library--on a time limit.) Demetra: > The one interview comment that has always troubled me was pre-HPB. > JKR was asked why Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA position and > she responded that Dumbledore felt that it might "tempt' (my word) > Snape. houyhnhnm: I agree. The illogic of refusing Snape the DADA position, but sending him back out to be a spy has always bothered me. Here's the actual quote: JKR: JK Rowling: That is an excellent question and the reason is that I have to be careful what I say here. To answer it fully would give a lot away about the remaining two books. When Prof Dumbledore took Prof Snape onto the staff and Prof Snape said "I'd like to be Prof of Defence Against the Dark Arts please" and Prof Dumbledore felt it might bring out the worst in Snape so said "I think we'll get you to teach Potions and see how you get along there". I think she is equivocating again. And remember the DADA position has been jinxed ever since Dumbledore refused the position to Tom Riddle. No has lasted longer than a year. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 22:50:26 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:50:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135450 > Alla: > > Well, actually, on all other supposed victims the jury may be still > out, but isn't it a given now that Snape INDEED at least partially > responsible for James' death. > > Simply by virtue of telling prophecy to Voldemort in the first palce > he set the chain of events in making that lead to Potters' death. > > I am thinking now that even if Snape will turn out to be innocent in > Dumbledore's death ( which personally I doubt), he would never repay > to Harry all that he owes to him, since he directly contributed to > him becoming an orphan in the first place. I've been thinking about this while I reread select parts of HBP and I have to say that this is the one part of the book where I think DD lets me down. I find it absolutely amazing (and infuriating) that DD who has always insisted on Harry giving Snape respect when he knows that Snape is the person who set in motion the events that left Harry an orphan. It seems to that is a slap in the face towards Harry and his loss. And when Harry comes to him in righteous anger he completely dismisses Harry's feelings. I don't think it matters which side Snape comes down on in the end. I won't be able to see him as anything other than evil. The way this man treats the two students he managed to help orphan tells me he can't be anything else. phoenixgod2000 From timregan at microsoft.com Thu Jul 28 23:21:05 2005 From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:21:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition Message-ID: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211929@EUR-MSG-20.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135451 Hi All, Dumbledore said to Malfoy (USA and not UK edition): <<< Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all. >>> Lynn added: <<< it really doesn't add something new to the mix. Narcissa figured Draco was given the assignment so he would be killed and we know the Death Eaters aren't very nice people and will kill as Voldemort tells them to kill. >>> But I've always assumed that, like us until recently, the Death Eaters have never once seen a single member of the Order of the Phoenix kill anyone. So surely they would find Narcissa's death at the hands of the Order very odd indeed? Unless they are aware of killings that we are not aware of, or they are all too stupid to adopt another's point-of-view. Cheers, Dumbledad. From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 23:49:55 2005 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:49:55 -0000 Subject: of Caves and Tarot cards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135452 Merrylinks wrote: This is something I've been wondering about: what was in that potion DD had to drink. I hadn't considered it might still be Voldemort's potion, but assumed it was left there by RAB, full of his own guilt at what he had been forced to do as a Death Eater, and/or as a trick to force Voldemort to experience guilt. So, interesting question here. It's either Voldemort's potion to incapacitate anyone threatening a piece of his "soul", or a potion placed there by Regulus Black . And if it's still Voldemort's original potion, Regulus would have had to drink it before stealing the locket. Could he have done that without help? If he had help, who was it? Marmelade's Mom, popping out of lukerdom to brag that she had predicted the return of Regulus Black two years ago...although in the person of Stubby Boardman, and as a joke, not a serious, totally unsuspected good guy. Isn't Jo great? From catportkey at aol.com Thu Jul 28 23:53:25 2005 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:53:25 EDT Subject: Snape kills V Message-ID: <8c.2bcf8a59.301ac9f5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135453 Do you think that Snape played both sides of the game for his own benefit?? He's destroyed Dumbledor, he may be able to destroy V. by slyly "helping" Harry kill V. Harry would be oblivious to Snape's final purpose, i.e.: Snape wants to become the most powerful -- the new lord. Then Harry and Snape have to have it out. Janice [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 23:54:49 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition In-Reply-To: <47DA59BF3D32334DAF6A67C7508991AB02211929@EUR-MSG-20.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20050728235450.99867.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135454 Tim Regan wrote: But I've always assumed that, like us until recently, the Death Eaters have never once seen a single member of the Order of the Phoenix kill anyone. So surely they would find Narcissa's death at the hands of the Order very odd indeed? Unless they are aware of killings that we are not aware of, or they are all too stupid to adopt another's point-of-view. Lynn: Let's not rule out stupid. LOL We learned from Sirius that in the last wor Aurors were given the authority to kill. (GOF UK p. 457) Sirius also intimated that some would kill even when they could have brought a person in alive. (GOF UK 462) If we assume that the Death Eaters don't know everyone in the Order or assume most if not all the Aurors are in the Order, they may surmise that the Order will kill a Death Eater. They may also have been given wrong information that someone was in the Order when they weren't. But as I said, let's not rule out stupid. test'; "> --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Fri Jul 29 00:00:25 2005 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:00:25 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135455 I just registered my vote in the Snape poll as: * I used to be on the fence about Snape, but now I am certain he is on the side of Good and oddly enough it was the _revulsion_ in DD's death scene that sealed my certainty. If Snape had finally broken cover, I would expect his face to show gloating or contempt for DD's pathetic belief in him. Even blankness would be in keeping with his whole 'control your emotions' kick, but revulsion - No. That to me was emphatically revulsion at what he was being asked to do. It combined with DD's pleading, to make me absolutely certain that DD asked Snape to kill him - and Snape had the strength to do so. I definitely see a parallel with Harry following DD's orders in the cave (as others have suggested). I also see Snape's overreaction to Harry calling him a coward as reflecting Snape's own knowledge of how HARD that action was for him. I think Zgirnis' analysis of the whole UV scene was great, BTW! I do wonder what Snape was thinking in that brief second before he took the final vow. I wonder if the vow wasn't badly expressed? There is no time limit for fulfilling the vow, so it would be hard to say when Snape had broken it. Possibly he thought he could weasel out of it in some way. I do think he didn't know exactly what Draco's task was at that time. The amount of time he spent hassling Draco seems to indicate that he needed more info! Jocelyn G From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 00:10:37 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:10:37 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > >> vmonte: >> I also agree with you that Snape has big issues with courage. >> There must be a reason why James and gang called him Snivellus. > a_svirn: > > Must there be a reason for Malfoy to call Hermione a Mudblood? Or to > say that Potter stinks? I suppose it must, but it has nothing to do > with Harry's personal hygiene. Snape might be `ESE', but he's hardly > a coward. To belabor the obvious, Malfoy calls Hermione a Mudblood because from his POV 1) it's intended to hurt, but even more 2) it's accurate. I think what was being put forward is that there are probably reasons that Snape was given that nickname and not another one, as it evokes some specific qualities. Of course, we don't know if it's accurate or not, but it does tell us something about the perception of those who used it/created it. It's not a generic insult, unlike "Potter stinks". -Nora sighs happily to have the library all to herself for the last- minute frantic finish From andie1 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 00:15:22 2005 From: andie1 at earthlink.net (grindieloe) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:15:22 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > vmonte: > > I also agree with you that Snape has big issues with courage. > There > > must be a reason why James and gang called him Snivellus. > > Must there be a reason for Malfoy to call Hermione a Mudblood? Or to > say that Potter stinks? I suppose it must, but it has nothing to do > with Harry's personal hygiene. Snape might be `ESE', but he's hardly a > coward. > > a_svirn I think that Harry calls Snape a coward for the simple reason that Snape would never think to take on Dumbledore if DD had a wand and could defend himself properly. That makes him a coward in this instance. grindieloe From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 29 00:34:59 2005 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:34:59 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince: two sentences missing from UK edition In-Reply-To: <20050728235450.99867.qmail@web32702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > > Tim Regan wrote: > > > Here's what he says in the UK edition: > > <<< What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight > to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban ... > >>> > > In the USA edition there are two addition sentences between those two, > > Lynn: > > The two sentences in between are: > > "Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all." (US p. 592) > > Gee, I love having both editions - now I'm wondering if I should bring both to Accio. (Reminder to self - PACK) > > I would guess there was an editing error as to really doesn't add something new to the mix. Narcissa figured Draco was given the assignment so he would be killed and we know the Death Eaters aren't very nice people and will kill as Voldemort tells them to kill. > Iris now: Maybe this post will sound odd or irrelevant, but I'm feeling rather curious concerning the differences between the two editions, and I'd like to be given some explanation. If I remember well what other members said in previous posts, there is also in the Scholastic edition another sentence saying that Draco could hide from Voldemort pretending to be dead (sorry, I didn't manage to remember the exact sentence, and I don't have the Scholastic edition; you'll correct me). My question is: are there many other differences between the two editions, concerning HBP and the rest of the series? And where do they come from? Why are there two versions of a same story? Maybe the difference between the two versions of HBP is just an editing error, as Lynn says, but it bothers me a little, because it makes me wonder which version was actually on JK Rowling desk. In one case (Scholastic edition) the readers are given explanations, and in the other (Bloomsbury edition), they are left with an ambiguity. In one case, they know precisely what is on Dumbledore's intention; they understand what kind of plan he has for Draco and his family. In the other case, they have to guess, to complete Dumbledore's words. Maybe this is just nitpicking but I don't see why readers should be given explanations, and other left with their questions. I can understand why there are different versions, variations, concerning very, very old books, published when there were no copyrights or intellectual property, or when censure was still important. But what is the interest of two versions concerning the worldwide publication of such an expected and protected modern novel? Unless it is part of the marketing game surrounding the series (collect the different versions, even in the same language ). Another possibility, just for fun: the Harry Potter Code. There's in the series something even more cryptic than alchemical and esoteric references, and it's hidden in the variations between the editions, and when the whole publication is over, we'll have to pick the variations together and they'll give us a secret message we'll be able to read only if we manage to work out correctly Dumbledore's words (Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!), or to interpret the illustrations in Quidditch through the Ages or Fantastic Beasts. It will be like in "The Club Dumas" or in "The Rule of Four" Thanks, Amicalement, Iris From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Fri Jul 29 00:42:27 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:42:27 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: <8c.2bcf8a59.301ac9f5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135459 Janice wrote: > Do you think that Snape played both sides of the game for his own benefit? > He's destroyed Dumbledor, he may be able to destroy V. by slyly "helping" > Harry kill V. Harry would be oblivious to Snape's final purpose, i.e.: Snape > wants to become the most powerful -- the new lord. > > Then Harry and Snape have to have it out. Yes yes, precisely what I have been working up to posting, preparing the audience, as it were. But Janice, since you've gone and proposed it, here's Snape Learns About Prophecy, Then He, Emboldened, Begins Itching to Covertly Help Horcrux Acquisition, Remaining Deviously Set Toward Usurption of Power, Intending Domination SLAP THE BITCH HARD, STUPID The only point I haven't posted on the two entries on HP4GU is that Snape knows about the Horlicks because of the burnt arm (didn't get that from cooking) and the potion sickness. It's too attractive a theory to let go - it explains his creepy, self-important behaviour at Spinner's End though... BTW - "not wanting to do it anymore" implies a choice to stop doing something. The unbreakable vow is not that kind of thing, so the overheard argument Hagrid mentions cannot be about AKing Albus. Also, "taking too much for granted" just doesn't make sense as also directly related to AKing Dumbledore. If you can make if fit, please show me. The conversation overheard by Hagrid seems more to be about what Albus told Snape he "must now ask him to do" at the end of GOF, not the Unbreakable Vow. Also, why does Albus tone change (so much so that it startles Harry) when Snape arrives? Has Dumbledore seen the betrayal, just then? Do we really believe Dumbledore has agreed that he himself needs to die? Is he so limited that that choice would ever be the only one possible? What is gained by Dumbledore being dead, in the big picture? According to canon, Tom is now free of the only one he ever feared. But does that justify Dumbledore's suicide? All the little points - getting into Bella's good books, getting into Tom's good books, saving little Draco Malfoy, really, all of these could not be done without Albus grasping death? Oh, I think there may have been an agreement. But I think it got compromised, and Albus knew it, at the end. And the newest painting in the headmaster's office will says "oops". dan From kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 20:11:30 2005 From: kevin_mcgoff at yahoo.com (another_potter_fan) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:11:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135460 Sue: > > (US p591) "Nobody would be surprised that you had died in > > your attempt to kill me- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably > > expexts it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had > > captured and killed you mother- it is what they would do > > themselves, after all. jojobinks1983: > Dumbledore is something of an expert at faking deaths. I read something in another post (I wish I could find it), but the theory goes something like this: DD himself is immortal, a human "phoenix" if you will. Clues: withered, burned hand (the beginning of the phoenix 'burning'?); the phoenix Harry thought he saw at the funeral ("Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue...." p645, US). Might this explain why he is something of an expert at faing deaths? APF From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 01:08:07 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:08:07 -0000 Subject: Possible reason for giving Snape the job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Missy" wrote: > Not the job at Hogwarts, but the job as DADA Professor. > > I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. And I think one of the > reasons that he got the job is because of McGonagal. She made a vow > that she would see to it that Harry was made an auror. And I think > that maybe she convinced DD to give him the job, so that someone else > could do Potions, and based on Harry's OWL grade, he would be able to > continue his coursework. And that would enable him to eventually > become an auror. > > Missy (Who is still a E!SE Snape person) Now Kelly: Missy, I had thought about that as well, but I think there must be more to it than that. After all, Dumbledore was Dumbledore. He could have forced Snape to take Harry or even tutored him in potions. There must be another reason. My real question is why did Jo make Snape the DADA teacher? What was her reason for writing the story this way? After all, she could have had Harry scrape an O in Potions. Kelly, who never wanted to believe Snape was ESE!, but now can't think about him without feeling angry. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 01:28:06 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:28:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's death Message-ID: <190.44ccd4f4.301ae026@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135462 In a message dated 7/25/2005 8:17:55 AM Central Standard Time, deianaera at yahoo.com writes: Blulioness replied: > > > This was something I missed untill a certain person pointed it out > > to me. The use of 'oho' in the cave was either an error on JK's > > part, a deliberate mistake to get us thinking or maybe it was > > Slughorn In OOTP Fudge also uses "Oho!" It's during Harry's hearing and Dumbledore is pointing out that a student school intransgressions are not under the ministries authority. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 01:37:37 2005 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (witchypooh67) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:37:37 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tbernhard2000" wrote: > Janice wrote: > > Do you think that Snape played both sides of the game for his own > benefit? Now Kelly: Absolutely! I think Snape has been a true Slytherin throughout the series. I believe he has been loyal only to himself the entire time. By worming his way into the position of being the most trusted person of both Voldemort and Dumbledore, he secured not only his own safety, but also a considerable amount of power. I think the "twitch" of his hand when Narcissa added the third part of the vow was him realizing that he would have to choose a side and make it known to everyone. He knew he was going to loose him comfortable position as the right hand man to both wizards. Dan wrote: > Also, why does Albus tone change (so much so that it startles Harry) > when Snape arrives? Has Dumbledore seen the betrayal, just then? Now Kelly: I have seen many people speculate that Dumbledore would never plead for his life; therefore, he must have had an agreement with Snape. I respectfully disagree that an agreement between the two is the only alternative. I think the change is Dumbledore's tone is not a plea for life or death, but an expression of shock and disbelief. Dumbledore told Harry long ago that he was not afraid of death, so I think he is not pleading with Snape not to kill him, but he might have been thinking something along the lines of "No, Snape. I trusted you! Don't betray the Order." Kelly, who is also not over the shock. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 01:39:14 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:39:14 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135464 Leslie writes: > Then, she would have shown Snape gloating before or after he > delivered the AK. > > She did none of that. Snape *gazes*. A gaze is a long, fixed > look. And his eyes don't "glitter" as they usually do when he's > discovered something particularly pleasing to him. > > If this is his ultimate victory--if DD is his nemesis--why not > gloat? Why not say "You worthless pathetic old man" as he kills > him? That wouldn't offend the Death Eaters, certainly. The killing > of DD is distinguished most not by what *is* in there, but what's > *not*, and what we would have every right to expect if Snape > really did hate DD. > > Look back at the end of PoA, when Snape discovers Lupin and Black > at the Shrieking Shack. Page 360, to be precise. Snape truly > and deeply hates Black, loathes him with every bone and fiber of > his being. And he is very eager to gloat. > > "Vengeance is very sweet...how I hoped I would be the one to catch > you." I think your point about gloating is the most relevant in all the speculation about Snape's behavior at this point. Snape, we have seen over and over, is so insecure that his need to be right and his need to lord superiority over people is bigger than he is. How on earth could he pass up gloating over *the* most triumphant moment of his life--pulling the wool over the eyes of inarguably one of the finest wizards in history? No, the Snape we have seen, the one who is childish, petulant, and snide whenever he is challenged by those he views less worthy, could never pass up the opportunity to gloat over DD's final realization that he'd been had, that Snape was smarter, more clever, and more talented than ever DD realized. No, clearly there is more to Snape than what we've been treated to through Harry's biased eyes. How else to account for his uncharacteristic reticence at the most glorious moment in his life-- a weak and pleading DD begging Snape for his life? Uh uh. That's a no go. desastreuse From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Fri Jul 29 01:45:11 2005 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:45:11 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Why_Lupin=A1=A6s_father_offered_him_to_a_wicked_werewolf=3F?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135465 It arouses me a lot of curiosity when Lupin told Harry in the Chapter ??Very Frosty Christmas?? (don??t have to book right now to turn to the page, sorry?K) that in fact his father ??had offered?? Greyback, the wicked werewolf, to bit the little boy Lupin and turned the latter to be one of them. Under what circumstances would a father lead his own son for such a miserable life? I could not resist feeling resented and irritated for Lupin??s father when I was reading. I just can??t imagine a good reason that back up his unforgivable act. Do you come up with any theories? Angel From desastreuse at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 01:50:03 2005 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:50:03 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135466 houyhnhnm: > I think she is equivocating again. And remember the DADA position > has been jinxed ever since Dumbledore refused the position to Tom > Riddle. No has lasted longer than a year. It might be possible, as well, that DD realized that the DADA position had been jinxed at the time Snape inquired about it, and, because DD didn't want to *lose* Snape, he didn't give him the position in order to shield him. desastreuse From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Jul 29 01:50:28 2005 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:50:28 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Why=20Lupin=A1=A6s=20fath?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?er=20offered=20him=20to=20a=20wicked=20werewolf=3F?= Message-ID: <1e8.400e142f.301ae564@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135467 Angel: It arouses me a lot of curiosity when Lupin told Harry in the Chapter ??Very Frosty Christmas?? (don??t have to book right now to turn to the page, sorry?K) that in fact his father ??had offered?? Greyback, the wicked werewolf, to bit the little boy Lupin and turned the latter to be one of them. Under what circumstances would a father lead his own son for such a miserable life? I could not resist feeling resented and irritated for Lupin??s father when I was reading. I just can??t imagine a good reason that back up his unforgivable act. Do you come up with any theories? Angel I think you may have misunderstood the passage. Lupin said that his father had offended Greyback. And as revenge on Lupin's father, Greyback bit Lupin. Admittedly, it would not be wise to offend someone with Greyback's reputation. But I don't think Lupin's father intentionally handed him over. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 01:24:08 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:24:08 -0000 Subject: Possible reason for giving Snape the job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135468 Kelly says: > My real question is why did Jo make Snape the > DADA teacher? What was her reason for writing the story this way? > After all, she could have had Harry scrape an O in Potions. Although this is neither a direct nor complete answer, we do know that Snape could _not_ possibly be Potions master while Harry was discovering the wonders of the HBP textbook, for obvious reasons. In this regard, JKR had to get Snape out of the way. Slughorn's debut also serves a double purpose in that it is from him that Harry gets the crucial information on horcruxes. So, in sum, the parameters: 1) Slughorn (as the generic new character) must be introduced to provide the horcrux memory. 2) Snape cannot be Harry's potions master The resolution: switch Slughorn and Snape. Of course, this is only a fractured explanation. I too believe there is more to it than this, specifically with regards to Snape's appointment as DADA teacher. I must say, by way of note, that I would love to have attended Snape's DADA classes. If I were Harry, I'd be glad of this, as I'd know for sure I could learn something from this skilled - or at the very least, competent - DADA teacher. Snape is unquestionably familiar with the Dark Arts, and would (could be) used as a valuable source for new material. We can't, after all, expect Harry to keep on "expelliarmus!" -ing Voldemort everytime he sees him. - AA From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Fri Jul 29 02:07:25 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:07:25 -0700 Subject: Snape's Memories Again Message-ID: <000a01c593e2$481d5120$482fdcd1@katmac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135469 Gatta: Why is it that when we are shown Snape's memories (OotP, hb U.S. ed.), both when he is teaching Harry Occlumency (p. 592) and in the Pensieve (pp. 640-649), Snape appears "in the third person", as it were? That is, from the outside, even though it is Snape doing the remembering? Am I just strange? Don't most people remember themselves "in the first person", from the inside out? Gatta. From ejom723 at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 29 01:56:24 2005 From: ejom723 at bellsouth.net (ejom723) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:56:24 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . Nope Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135470 In the discussion of possible horcruxes between DD and Harry and the possibility that one of them may be an item belonging to Gryfyndor. DD states that the ONLY known item left is the sword Harry used in COS, but this statement is wrong. The Sorting Hat also belonged to Gryffindor. In GOF in his sorting song the hat clearly states that he was taken directly from GG's head, thus belonging to him. Julie From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 01:34:14 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:34:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135471 In THE MAGICAL WORLD OF HARRY POTTER by David Colbert, he points out two passages from two different books, and makes a great topic for discussion, [(?J.R.R. Lord of the Rings) Gandalf?s long white hair, his sweeping silver beard, and his broad shoulders, made him look like some wise king of ancient legend. In his aged face under great snowy brows his dark eyes were set like coals that could leap suddenly to fire.? That description echoes the scene in Goblet of fire when Dumbledore realizes Barty Crouch Jr. has been disguised as Mad-Eye Moody: ?There was cold fury in every line of the ancient face, a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he were giving off burning heat.?] Where I am going with this, and you may have already gotten there, is that maybe Rowlings was giving us a clue. For instance, Gandalf obviously dies in the first book of LotR, yet in the second book, of Lord of the Rings, he has been sent back from the other world, ?heaven, I would guess? to middle earth again. In other words, he dies and returns. Furthermore, he is the only character, throughout the whole story, that does something as great as this. In conclusion, I am considering the chances that something like this could happen to Dumbledore. Now stay with me on this, I'm changing the topic a bit, to consider other possibilities, don't quit reading because I have a question for all of my fellow HPFGUP friends Once you drink the elixir of life, known as the Sorcerer's Stone, how much does it lasts until you need another drink? In the first book, I recall the memory of Nicholas Flamel and his wife drinking it. I also think, I can't remember well, I'll look for it in a while, that Dumbledore also took it. Nevertheless, here is another question for you guys. Don't you think that we are not giving Dumbledore the credit he disserves? For example, maybe he was right about Snape, maybe just maybe Dumbledore?s down fall was Snape?s promise to protect Malfoy. I mean, think about it! Snape had to make that promise, or else, the death eaters would know he was really on Dumbledore?s side. Not with standing, Snape could have died if Malfoy did not complete the task; moreover, perhaps Snape knew something that we did not. For instance, that Dumbledore was already dying, his hand was rotting, and that he, Snape, was a better of a use, for Harry, alive than Dumbledore dead. Or that he and Dumbledore had talked about something like the encounter they had was going to happen, and they planed it, hence it was all a hoax. That could explain why Dumbledore froze Harry, so that he would not ruin the performance that was going to take place. I just can't accept that Dumbledore got killed the way it happened, it does not convince me. I mean the Order of Merlin (First Class), Grand Sorcerer, Chief Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International Confederation of Wizards, and the Wizzard who defeated Grindelewald in 1945? Nahh! Can I get some comments on this? Id love to hear what you guys have to say?!?! Sincerely, Dilia From fmaneely at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 29 00:50:42 2005 From: fmaneely at bellsouth.net (fhmaneely) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:50:42 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135472 Siriusly Snapey Susan: > *If* my read of this scene is accurate, then DD IS asking Snape to > kill him, which means he is asking Snape to return to performing an > action which Snape he *not* want to return to, an action which now > repulses him. > I agree with you Susan except on one point, and that is that the hatred and revulsion was for Snape himself. The enormaty of killing DD is what caused this. I think Snape is a reformed DE, and has been loyal to DD. The argument bwtween DD and Snape that Hagird let slip to Harry was probably. imho, the due to the possiblity of Snape having to kill DD, or something like it. I think this is the reason Fawkes was not around; DD did call for him or however he gets him to come to DD in time of need. Also, Snape going ballistic when Harry calls him a coward does not sound like Snape. This comment really upset him, a comment from Harry?? It realy seemed to touch a nerve in ole Sevvy. Next book we will find out what it is that makes DD trust him so much... until then we can only keep guessing at possible scenarios. Regards, Fran From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Fri Jul 29 00:21:34 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (Kat Macfarlane) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:21:34 -0700 Subject: How Many Wizards Does It Take to Change a Lightbulb? Message-ID: <000b01c593d3$85f781a0$482fdcd1@katmac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135473 Gatta: Browsing through PS/SS (hb U.S. ed.) for references to wizardly attire, I became intrigued with the WW's interface with Muggle technology. Apparently the WW quite comfortably uses or adapts anything that is not motorized, electrical, or electronic, assuming they don't already have something equivalent already in place. For example: * Oliver uses "ordinary golf balls" to train Harry at Quidditch (p. 170). * The loos at Hogwarts are apparently just that (pp. 175-177). (Though I admit I expected a flood to ensue when the troll knocked the sinks off the wall; magical automatic shut-off valves?)* * Hagrid and many of the students bring binoculars to the Quidditch match (p. 184 ff.). * The Weasley twins wear gold wristwatches (p. 187). I won't meet the Weasley car until CoS, but as I recall it began life as an ordinary Ford Anglia, to which Arthur Weasley made magical "improvements". *FOOTNOTE: Assuming the plumbing at Hogwarts is Muggle standard, what do they do when something goes wrong? Summon Pluggage & Drip, Ltd. in the next Muggle village down the line to rectify matters? (Admittedly, Moaning Myrtle is a special case, but every so often a student may drop something down the toilet or a faucet may develop a drip.) And how do they get in touch with P&D? Is there a telephone stashed away in the back pantry, or are P&D comfortable with receiving owls? More later! ;) Gatta. From dlatchman at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 23:22:04 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:22:04 -0400 Subject: How do the horcruxes work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135474 Rizza: > > The AK doesn't destroy the soul that is in your body, you can't even > die a natural death. As long as you have a horcrux somewhere out > there, you are immortal. If the horcrux is destroyed, then the AK > can kill you, or die of old age, whichever comes first. Here is my take on it. Most religions would agree that the soul is immortal and indestructable. When someone dies the sould separates from this dimension and heads off to wherever it may go. Since I haven't died I really can't say. I am just going to speculate. The act of creating a horcrux sort of takes a piece of the sould and binds it here. It prevents the soul from leaving. So the horcrus is technically a lock or a bind of some sort. So what if you get AK'd? Well you "die" but since something else is holding your soul here, in this physical dimension, your soul can't separate; you stay here. This is what happened to Voldemort which was a fate worse that actually being killed by the curse. I guess since he could not be killed because of this the curse destroyed the only thing it could. His body. Now the question is what happens when you destroy a horcrux. Yes it holds your soul, or a portion of it. Since there are other horcruxes or other binds present then that portion does not leave this dimension or evaporate into the ether. I am guessing it still stays in this dimension. Does it return to its owner? Would Voldemort become more human as Harry destroys the other Horcruxes? Will he even know eventually? Yes he has been separated from these portions for so long at some time he must become aware of what is happening. After Harry destroys the sixth Horcrux would Voldemort realize because he now has all the pieces of his soul in his body once more? Or is there something else? David L. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 02:29:03 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:29:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: <000a01c593e2$481d5120$482fdcd1@katmac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135475 > Gatta: > > Why is it that when we are shown Snape's memories (OotP, hb U.S. ed.), both when he is teaching Harry Occlumency (p. 592) and in the Pensieve (pp. 640-649), Snape appears "in the third person", as it were? > That is, from the outside, even though it is Snape doing the remembering? > > Am I just strange? Don't most people remember themselves "in the first person", from the inside out? > Schumar: I believe that ALL the memories we have seen in the pensieves have been in the Third Person, right from GoF to the memories of all the wizards/ house elf in the scenes with Tom Riddle. The ONLY pensieve view that I can recall where we did not see the person to whom the memory belonged was the Pensieve "Quick View" retelling of the prophecy by Sybil Trelawney. We know that memory was Dumbledore's and I can only surmise now that he did not want Harry to see EVERYTHING there by entering the memory, in which he would have seen the Snape/Aberforth interruption and whatever Dumbledore's reaction and next step was. I believe the point of seeing the Pensieve memories in the third person is that we get to see what ACTUALLY happened, not a biased interpretation of the rememberer. I think this can serve not only other people, but it gives the wizards a greatchance to look from outside themselves to analyze something that took place...much like people videotape themselves for future analysis. Extracting a silverystrand from one's temple and being able to actually be inside the memory seems much more satisfying than a 2 dimensional videotape. though, and much harder to modify, as Slughorn proved. Marianne S. p.s. forgive me if this has been said before, better, by others. p.p.s. I actually sometimes dream about myself in the third person. From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 02:37:30 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:37:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c593e6$78159a50$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135476 Nevertheless, here is another question for you guys. Don't you think that we are not giving Dumbledore the credit he disserves? For example, maybe he was right about Snape, maybe just maybe Dumbledore?s down fall was Snape?s promise to protect Malfoy. I mean, think about it! Snape had to make that promise, or else, the death eaters would know he was really on Dumbledore?s side. Not with standing, Snape could have died if Malfoy did not complete the task; moreover, perhaps Snape knew something that we did not. For instance, that Dumbledore was already dying, his hand was rotting, and that he, Snape, was a better of a use, for Harry, alive than Dumbledore dead. Or that he and Dumbledore had talked about something like the encounter they had was going to happen, and they planed it, hence it was all a hoax. That could explain why Dumbledore froze Harry, so that he would not ruin the performance that was going to take place. Sincerely, Dilia Sherry now: If Dumbledore and Snape had some goofy plan, or even a serious plan, and if Snape indeed is the one who could better protect Harry, why didn't anyone think to tell Harry before it all happened? i just don't believe it. It would make Dumbledore into a pretty evil wizard himself, in my opinion, to have pulled something like that. As for Snape's vow, if breaking his vow meant his death and keeping his vow meant killing the one person who had believed in him and trusted him and probably loved him, then, well, to paraphrase Sirius Black in POA, He should have died rather than murder Dumbledore. There's nothing that can justify that act to me. Also if Dumbledore is still alive, then what does that say about JKR's oft and vehemently repeated statements that the dead don't come back? Harry isn't going to listen to anything Snape may have to say in future. He blames Snape for his parents deaths as well as Dumbledore's now. He's probably out for Snape's blood as much as he is out for Voldemort's. A foolish plan, not to prepare the one most affected in the aftermath. I don't want Dumbledore to be dead, and I didn't want Snape to be ESE, tried to believe in whatever it was Dumbledore believed. But his murder of Dumbledore just made all the conflict about him come together in my mind to the conclusion that we should have known all along that he was evil. The clues were always there, but we believed in Dumbledore and found the conflicted character of Snape very interesting. We got hoodwinked. sherry From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 02:57:22 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:57:22 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: <8c.2bcf8a59.301ac9f5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135477 Janice wrote: Do you think that Snape played both sides of the game for his own benefit? He's destroyed Dumbledor, he may be able to destroy V. by slyly "helping" Harry kill V. Harry would be oblivious to Snape's final purpose, i.e.: Snape wants to become the most powerful -- the new lord. Then Harry and Snape have to have it out. vmonte responds: I do think that this is possible. Snape would make a much more interesting villian than Riddle IMO. I've been posting for two years that there are definitely qualities in Snape that remind me of the character Iago from Othello. I posted over a year ago that I hated the idea of a prophecy because it implied that a person did not have control over their destiny. I remember saying that Voldemort would have done better for himself if he had not listened to the prophecy in the first place. In fact he probably would have conquered the WW by now. Instead, Voldemort became fixated on Harry. Then I also proposed the idea that perhaps the prophecy itself was a hoax. Voldemort and Dumbledore are considered to be the best wizards alive. If you didn't have the skill to get rid of them, how else could you do it? I would it the way Snape always does everything. He manipulates people with his words. THE PROPHECY! Which DE was present when the prophecy was spoken? Which DE told Voldemort about the prophecy? And which DE then went back and told Dumbledore that he told Voldemort? Are we going to later find out that this same person told Voldemort not to kill Lily? And Trelawny's prophecy calls Voldemort "The Dark Lord." Snape also calls Voldemort THE DARK LORD. Vivian mugglenet Interview: JKR: Yes, definitely, because I think there's a line there between the moment in "Chamber of Secrets" when Dumbledore says so famously, `It's our choices that define us, not our abilities,' straight through to Dumbledore sitting in his office, saying to Harry, "the prophecy is significant only because you and Voldemort choose to make it so." If you both chose to walk away, you could both live! That's the bottom line. If both of them decided, "We're not playing," and walked away but, it's not going to happen, because as far as Voldemort's concerned, Harry's a threat. They must meet each other. ES: I remember thinking when I read "Order of the Phoenix," what would happen if Harry and Voldemort just decided to ? JKR: Shake hands, and walk away? We'll agree to disagree! [Laughter.] ES: What if he never heard the prophecy? JKR: And that's it, isn't it. As I said, that's what I posted on my site - ES: I'm glad you put that up. JKR: It's the "Macbeth" idea. I absolutely adore "Macbeth." It is possibly my favorite Shakespeare play. And that's the question isn't it? If Macbeth hadn't met the witches, would he have killed Duncan? Would any of it have happened? Is it fated or did he make it happen? I believe he made it happen. From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 02:44:36 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:44:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135478 Dilia says: > Gandalf > obviously dies in the first book of LotR, yet in the second book, of > Lord of the Rings, he has been sent back from the other world, > ?heaven, I would guess? to middle earth again. In other words, he > dies and returns. Furthermore, he is the only character, throughout > the whole story, that does something as great as this. In conclusion, > I am considering the chances that something like this could happen to > Dumbledore. ........................ > I just can't accept that Dumbledore got killed the way it happened, > it does not convince me. I mean the Order of Merlin (First Class), > Grand Sorcerer, Chief Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International > Confederation of Wizards, and the Wizzard who defeated Grindelewald > in 1945? Nahh! > > Can I get some comments on this? Id love to hear what you guys have > to say?!?! As much as I would love to believe Dumbledore is coming back (he was my favorite character by far), it is very, very, very unlikely. As was mentioned on this board before, his death is both logically and literally appropriate: within the context of the story, this is necessary for the progression of Harry's hero cycle (that is, Harry can't hide behid DD anymore; he must confront Voldemort on his own, once and for all - "the last and greatest of his protectors was now gone"), and within the overall construct of the message JKR wants to impart: war is ugly, and there must be made horrible, seeminly unsurmountable sacrafices; life is life, and death comes to people we least expect to lose - this is the nature of life, and Harry, along with all of us readers, must confront it. Keep in mind, also, the canon evidence: the descriptions of the funeral, as well as the descriptions of Harry's inner thoughts, make the death very permanent (remember how Fawkes stopped singing and left, and Harry knew somehow "and he didn't know how he knew, but he knew", that Fawkes would never come back again... Fawkes, we could say, is a metonymy for DD). Further, Dumbledore's appearance as a portrait in the Headmaster's Office should cement this. As for parallels with Gandalf...we must remember that Gandalf was never "Gandalf", as such. The wizard who went by the name "Gandalf" was actually a spirit power from Aman, sent by the Valar to aid the peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron. Now, this is stuff well beyond LOTR, but is essential reading in Tolkien's overall schematic. Gandalf never actually died: he, as a spirit, was given a new form, or flesh, with which to return - Gandalf the "White", as opposed to "Grey". In short, because of the more complicated - one could say, essentially, hierarchial - nature of the power structure in LOTR, Gandalf (who is, as it were, immortal) and Dumbledore (who is in JKR's world very mortal) are in this vein incomparable. Their function(s) with respect to the protagonist, of course, is a whole 'nother story. - AA From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 22:34:11 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] R.A.B. Theories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728223411.58188.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135479 Lisa Rourke wrote: > Like many of you, when I first saw the initials R.A.B. I immediately thought of Regulas. Among the objects that Sirius throws into a sack is ..."a heavy locket that none of them could open.." ( OoP pg. 116 American ed.). It seems to me that this is THE locket. Where it is now remains the question- with Kreacher's belongings at #12 or did Mundungus fence it with the other stolen objects? Yes I also thought of Regulas the minute I read the passage and thought back to this passage. And it makes perfect sense, but is this what J.K. Rowling wants us to think? I also think Regulas had an accomplice since Harry and Dumbledore had to work together in order make it out of the cave. Now, people have been mentioning that they thought that the initials stood for more than one person. Which also makes sense that it was not more than one person who set up this elaborate cave and potion "fiasco". So then what if the initials stand for R- Regulus A- Aberforth B- Bellatrix Any takers on this theory? Sincerely yours in the Harry Potter web, Amy From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:02:23 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:02:23 -0000 Subject: Harrry the Horcrux - Body and Soul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135480 Steve wrote: > > Based on my understanding of the vague and general nature of the > Horcrux, I don't see how Harry could be one with out some great and > very substantial leaps of faith. Certainly some 'bit' of Voldemort is > in Harry, that's a fact, but we don't really know if that 'bit' is > part of Voldemort's soul or part of his earthy essense. Saraquel: I'm so convinced that Harry is *not* a Horcrux, that with so many posts to choose from, I haven't really followed this thread. But I very much agree with Steve's analysis and would like to add a couple of points to it. Steve wrote: > Further, when it is and has been so blatantly obvious that a part of > Voldemort is in Harry, how could Dumbledore not conclude that that > 'part' was a part of Voldemort's soul? Dumbledore would have to be > completely retarted to have not already have thought of it. Absolutely. This has always been my main reason for thinking Harry is not a Horcrux. Whatever DD's mistakes have been, they don't appear to have been in his powers of reasoning. (although his spelling might have been a bit retarted :-) ) But my next most important reason is that we have an example of what a Horcrux-soul-fragment does when it comes into contact with a living being ? namely Ginny. It procedes to suck the life out of it in order to recreate itself a physical reality. UK ed COS p231 "But there isn't much life left in her: she put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to let me leave its pages at last." And p233 "But the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenly, Riddle's outline was becoming clearer, more solid." If Harry is a Horcrux, then he has been that since he was a year old, very weak and defenceless. Why didn't the Horcux-soul-fragment in him simply take over, suck the life out of him, and spit him out, years ago? The Horcrux-soul-fragment was not even *in* Ginny, but able to feed off her because of the confidence she placed in it when she wrote in the diary. To me, it is clear that given an opportunity, a Horcrux-soul- fragment wants to live and takes any opportunity it can to do so. Hence you have a possibility that you could end up with multiple Voldemorts, each with their own body, "regrown" from the Horcrux- soul-fragments' contact with other human beings. Mmmmh Now I ask myself about what the worst risk is in destroying a Horcrux ? oh yes, you've guessed it ? recreating another Voldemort! This makes me think that the Horcrux!locket is still intact. Let's assume for a moment that RAB is Regulus, and he did get the locket. Then we are talking a long time since that Horcrux was discovered and as no-one has mentioned Genius!Regulus, then I think he would have failed to even open the locket, if he had succeded, it is my guess that we'd have another Voldemort walking the earth somewhere. Steve wrote: > I believe what was tranferred to Harry is part of Voldemort's earthy > vehicle, and not part of his soul. His ability to speak Parsle Tongue > is part of Voldemort's earthy essense, part of his earthly identity. > It's not associated with the true pure spiritual essense of his soul. Thanks for that exposition on body,spirit,soul. I've been puzzling over that one, and your thoughts have helped. Snape describes a ghost in HBP p431 "A ghost , is the imprint of a departed soul left upon the earth and of course, as Potter so wisely tells us, transparent." Ok, so, it seems obvious to me (but then lots of things seem obvious until someone on the list points out how unobvious they are :-) ) that some sort of energy is what creates and sustains the body. I tend to think of it more as life energy, rather than earthly essence, as the energy has a dynamic element to it. But what's in a name . When Voldemort creates a Horcrux, 2 things at least seem to happen ? his soul splits totally apart, and his body goes through some sort of transformation. So during the transformation of the body, I can well believe that some of his body-life-energy, might have got into Harry. I've posted stuff aound this topic before which includes cannon references, here is the relevant bit of the post: In message 134701 Saraquel wrote: IMO, that Voldemort had plans for an immortal body, is clear from his remark in UK GoF p 569 "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." This is an interesting line, in that he calls his current existence ? mortal life. Seeing as he has survived without a body, the part that he seems to think of as mortal in this context is his body. In the Mugglenet interview, JKR says that the first foetal-like body he created is significant. In GOF p567 he talks about creating this with Wormtail's help "a spell or two of my own invention a little help from my dear Nagini." I'm really not sure where to go with this one, but I've also had tucked in the back of my mind that Voldemort's body changes every time he makes a Horcrux. It is quite distinctly shown in the text. Therefore the making of a Horcrux is not just about the soul, it is also about the body as well. HBP P413 "It was as though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted" His voice is also affected. Saraquel now, again: I'm still not quite sure where all this is leading, but if DD is right, and Nagini is a Horcrux, then it is interesting that she had something to do with Voldemort being able to recreate a rudimentary body. The other line of exploration that is interesting is about what happened to DD when he destroyed the Horcrux!Ring. The decription of Voldemort's physical transformation is that they had been `burned and blurred'. DDs hand had also been burned. Saraquel With still far more questions than answers on this thread. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:16:42 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Lupins father offered him to a wicked werewolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729031642.42537.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135481 angellslin wrote: It arouses me a lot of curiosity when Lupin told Harry in the Chapter Very Frosty Christmas?? (don??t have to book right now toturn to the page, sorry?K) that in fact his father ??had offered??Greyback, the wicked werewolf, to bit the little boy Lupin and turned the latter to be one of them. Actually it says "My father had OFFENDED him" Pg 335 Ch 16 Scholastic. So it was more like an act of vengance againt Mr Lupin Sr. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 02:16:31 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:16:31 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135482 Jen: > I don't believe Dumbledore knew the extent of Draco's plan, i.e. the Vanishing cabinents nor DE invasion. But he knew Draco was attempting to kill him. He's not at all surprised when Draco corners him on the tower... > Harry's concern is not Draco, but the safety of the school. Dumbledore dismisses his concern. If Dumbledore's boggart is causing other people suffering or death because of his own mistakes, he has now set himself up to experience that very thing. (We agree that DD is not worried about Draco's attempts on his life.) Merrylinks: > I think Dumbledore is seeing his future.< > My read on DD's begging and pleading in the cave is that it's not for himself, but for the safety of the students. If you are right, if the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort of like an extreme dementor attack, then DD's constant pleading is consistent with that. Hi! Good points, good points! But I would like to add to all the above that, maybe Dumbledore was interested in Harry seeing him die. For instance, if Harry finally sees Dumbledore, the best Wizard ever, die before his eyes, maybe just maybe he would finally realize that he is also human. And with this, he would start to believe in himself, mature a lot, and acknowledge the great wizard he also is. Since in all the books he always doubts his powers, he is just human. For example, in the first book, after Hagrid tells him he is a wizzard, he does not believe it, even though all the weird stuff he had done throughout his life that he could not explain. And then afterwards he learned pretty well that he is a wizard, but could not believe that he is the wizzard that Dumbledore expects him to be. UNTIL NOW! In conclusion, I guess Dumbledore wanted Harry to meditate on his death, so that he starts believing in himself, as he did at the end of the 6th book, where it is obvious he has matured a lot. Nevertheless, I hope you guys read the message I posted recently, ?Dumbledore and Gandalf? I would love your comments on that. best wishes, always, Dilia From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:21:19 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:21:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death In-Reply-To: <190.44ccd4f4.301ae026@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > > In OOTP Fudge also uses "Oho!" It's during Harry's hearing and > Dumbledore is pointing out that a student school intransgressions are > not under the ministries authority. And I noticed that Hagrid uses the same interjection at least once in the first half of HBP, though I'd have to search for a while to find it. I think the "Oho!" is just one of those verbal tics that JKR has in HBP, not an indicator that DD is Slughorn in disguise. You probably know the kind I mean. They typically are an adjective or adverb that is repeatedly used to describe the a particular character, or sometimes more than one. For example, I tend to associate "loftily" with Hermione and "grumpily" with Ron. I may be mistaken in these associations, but they're what I think I recall. And does "airily" go with Ginny, Fleur, and Luna? These tics probably can't be helped in books this long. Some repetition is bound to occur, and perhaps JKR just has a short list of each character's defining traits in mind. Ersatz Harry From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:22:24 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . Nope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729032224.43398.qmail@web53114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135484 ejom723 wrote: DD states that the ONLY known item left is the sword Harry used in COS, but this statement is wrong. The Sorting Hat also belonged to Gryffindor. In GOF in his sorting song the hat clearly states that he was taken directly from GG's head, thus belonging to him. Juli: But isn't the Sorting Hat more a Hogwarts' property? It may have once been Gryffindors, he may have designed, but he gave it to Hogwarts. It is Hogwarts' Sorting Hat, not Godric Gryffindor's Hat. The way I see it it contains a bit of all the 4 founders, so it's no longer his, it's a collective good. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magalud at yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 21:49:32 2005 From: magalud at yahoo.com (ludmila souza) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050728214932.66237.qmail@web52109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135485 Leslie41, snipped: > Killing Dumbledore completely cements Snape's position within > Voldemort's ranks. Magalud: I agree to a certain point. But there are circumstances to consider. The Dark Lord had put the mission in Draco's hands, for reasons of his own, more probably to kill the boy and punish Lucius for the DoM fiasco. And then Severus makes a UV about a mission supposed to be for Draco. It could have soothed Bellatrix suspicions, but it may not mean the Dark Lord will be happy about being disobeyed, or his Death Eaters taking vows on mission he had planned. As Dumbledore said, even those who think are his friends and confidants do not share his trust at all. Also, the Dark Lord does not strike me as a person who appreciates initiative and independent thinking. He wants minions, not fellowmen. So, although I agree Snape will be trusted from now on, I am not sure he will be welcomed with open arms by the Dark Lord. Oh, BTW, I pity Draco. I am convinced his reception in the fold will be far from warm - not to mention very dangerous, bordering deadly. I trust Snape - Oh, and I also trust Snape will try to protect him, to his best. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135425 for Leslie41's post that brilliantly argued as how Rowling doesn't want us to peg Snape as ESE. There is the crucial comparison of the PoA scene and the Tower scene. Bow to you. Magalud (off) SnapeFest 2005! Breve,incluindo HBP!fic Orgulhosa keeper da voz sexy de Severus Snape e do seu sorrisinho sarc?stico My fanfic: http://www.geocities.com/snapesecrets From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:28:39 2005 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:28:39 -0000 Subject: R.A.B. Theories In-Reply-To: <20050728223411.58188.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amy Klein wrote: > Now, people have been mentioning that they thought that the initials > stood for more than one person. Knowing that the volume of posts is too high to keep up with, I'll say it again: the RAB note used the term "I", not "we". One person. Ersatz Harry From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:37:52 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729033752.117.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135487 ahsonazmat wrote: As for parallels with Gandalf...we must remember that Gandalf was never "Gandalf", as such. The wizard who went by the name "Gandalf" was actually a spirit power from Aman, sent by the Valar to aid the peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron. Now, this is stuff well beyond LOTR, but is essential reading in Tolkien's overall schematic. Gandalf never actually died: he, as a spirit, was given a new form, or flesh, with which to return - Gandalf the "White", as opposed to "Grey". In short, because of the more complicated - one could say, essentially, hierarchial - nature of the power structure in LOTR, Gandalf (who is, as it were, immortal) and Dumbledore (who is in JKR's world very mortal) are in this vein incomparable. Their function(s) with respect to the protagonist, of course, is a whole 'nother story. Juli: For quite a while I have been thinking there is some relation between Gandalf and Dumbledore. They look alike (long bears, white hair, old, stronger than they seem), they have the same purpose (to defeat the bad guy), and they both died. You say Gandalf didn't actually die, but he did, In book 2 (The Two Towers), when he meets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn, he explains what happened: he says he died, then he returned. And Gandalf wasn't a spirit, he was a Maiar, a lesser Valar, he had the inmortal life of the Eldar and Eru's Valar, even in The Silmarilion he was mentioned (as Olorin, the wise), but even if they are inmortal, they can die: Many elves died, also some Valar (Melkor), and Maiar (Saruman, Gandalf). A phrase in the LOTR keeps coming to my mind, right near the end Gandalf says "my time is over, for I was the enemy of Sauron", I think that phrase could also be applied to DD, He IS the enemy of LV, LV wants DD out of his way, he's all that's standing on his way. Just as Hagrid said "I wouldn't worry too much as long as we have DD around" (Sorry don't have my copy right here), it would be fatal for the entire WW if DD was to die on book 6, afterwards LV could act freely and take over the entire WW. I think DD *is* Gandalf, they carry the faith of their worlds on their shoulders, they seem to know what's going to happen next and how to change it. I think he is THE enemy of Voldemort, as in the biggest. Why else have we always heard DD is the only one LV has ever feared? If he was just another enemy, like so many he's got, why make such a big deal about him? DD takes the war personally, he even created the *only* group that's always been fighting. You could argue with me saying that Harry/Neville is The enemy, but I don't agree with that. LV feared DD long before any of them were born. I believe DD knows a LOT more than we believe, he seems to know everything that happens in Hogwarts, even before things happen. I read somewhere that it could be because frog-cards, and Bill did say that DD didn't care if they fired him as long as they kept him on the frog-cards. How else could he have known when in PS Harry was spending his evenings at the mirror of Erised, and that Harry would be in that final encounter with LV/Quirell? I have no idea how DD knows the future, but I'm sure he does know what's about to happen. Gandalf also acted as if he knew what was going to happen, he seemed to have the gift of foresight, he worked for years to save middle earth, he too died to save others. All this said I think DD will return. How? I haven't a clue, I think he may do so as a phoenix, there's been way too many mentions of the Phoenix and DD. (I copied some bits from an old thread, starting at number 116432.) Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bree4378 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:06:56 2005 From: bree4378 at yahoo.com (Sabrina) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:06:56 -0000 Subject: Has Anyone Seen Neville? Luna on Occasion? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135488 I have finally finished reading HBP, and overall I enjoyed it. I actually cried when Dumbledore died. I think this book was even more of cliffhanger than GOF. However, I found myself asking "where is Neville?" a quarter of the way, halfway, and three quarters of the way through the book, and then finally found him in the last few chapters. I was very disappointed that JKR sort of forgot about him in the book. Especially after his brilliant character development in OOTP. I am hoping that the information we found out about him in OOTP, was given to us for a reason, and he will shine once again in book 7. I felt poor Luna was sort of snubbed also, but I really enjoyed her as commentator for the Quidditch match. I wonder if JKR put that in to make her a more likeable character by giving her a comedic side? I liked her from her first scene in OOTP. -Sabrina From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 03:44:39 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:44:39 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work and why does the prophecy contradict it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David L." wrote: > Here is my take on it. > you "die" but since something else is holding your soul here, in > this physical dimension, your soul can't separate; you stay here. > > Now the question is what happens when you destroy a horcrux. Yes it > holds your soul, or a portion of it. Since there are other horcruxes > or other binds present then that portion does not leave this > dimension or evaporate into the ether. I am guessing it still stays > in this dimension. Valky now: Without getting too heavily into the debate, this I agree with, due that it is a logical explanation. JKR may actually steer the story according to Harry in a complete other direction but I think it will need to explain away the logic of this if it does, or it will seem a little silly to me. In the mugglenet/TLC interview JKR appears to be absolutely contradicting that Horcruxes work this way by saying that the "soul piece" in the diary was definitely "destroyed" and is now gone. So unless there is some *extra* explanation revealing why/how the soul piece in the diary wasn't "bound to the ground" by the other pieces of itself, I can completely sympthise with those who can't understand how Horcruxes work. It simply doesn't make logical sense to me. As far as I gather from Dumbledores and Slughorns statements about Horcruxes, the Wizard gains immortality because of the protections put on his other pieces of soul. And if that was all there was to it then the soul piece inhabiting Voldemort in GH (or one of) was destroyed by the AK, for its protection was Voldemort himself who was destroyed.. (yeah I'm getting heavily in now oops). It is, perhaps, possible that it happened this way due to there having been three murders attempted at GH. Giving Voldemort two pieces of soul to lose when the AK backfired and he could have managed to keep one. However, thats a *lot* to explain and so it might seem a little silly if that's how it was. > Does it return to its owner? Would Voldemort become more human as > Harry destroys the other Horcruxes? Will he even know eventually? > Yes he has been separated from these portions for so long at some > time he must become aware of what is happening. After Harry destroys > the sixth Horcrux would Voldemort realize because he now has all the > pieces of his soul in his body once more? Or is there something > else? > David L. I too believe that the pieces of soul *must* go somewhere still on the earthly plane, they are Voldemort after all, so they aren't just going to leave if they can avoid it. We could end up with seven little Vapormorts, or Voldie Ghosts floating in the ether otherwise, relatively harmless, though they might be, it's still a very unpleasant thought and hardly the job of vanquishing done like it should be. The last explanation that's logical is that there might be exceptions. For example the diary horcrux, having been created by a very young inexperienced Voldie, may be the exception due to it's novice magic, while later horcuxes are better protected and much less vulnerable to destruction/displacement of their contents by magical forces. The last thing that contradicts the concept that JKR implies in her mugglenet/TLC interview is the prophecy. It says: one must die by the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.. This logically does not add to Dumbledore can destroy a Horcrux and weaken Voldemort, then Harry destroys the rest because Voldemort can't die while the Horcruxes survive.. For a start: it says neither can live, not Voldemort can't die.. so the Horcruxes hardly form the complete answer in any case. And secondly, one must die by the hand of the other totally rules out Dumbledore destroying a piece of Voldemorts soul and then dying as a fulfillment of the prophecy while one and the other are just Harry and Voldemort. I really want to know why the Prophecy contradicts Dumbledore's explanation of how to vanquish Voldemort. I don't think that it's entirely because he doesn't place a whole lot of stock in what it says, it may be in part but the question of choice arises and Dumbledore chose to give the prophecy some of his study time so there has to be something to it that he felt warranted paying attention to. Valky From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 04:00:28 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:00:28 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135490 Leslie41 wrote: If this is his ultimate victory--if DD is his nemesis--why not gloat? Why not say "You worthless pathetic old man" as he kills him? That wouldn't offend the Death Eaters, certainly. The killing of DD is distinguished most not by what *is* in there, but what's *not*, and what we would have every right to expect if Snape really did hate DD. Look back at the end of PoA, when Snape discovers Lupin and Black at the Shrieking Shack. Page 360, to be precise. Snape truly and deeply hates Black, loathes him with every bone and fiber of his being. And he is very eager to gloat. "Vengeance is very sweet...how I hoped I would be the one to catch you." Rowling doesn't want us to peg Snape as ESE. That's evident throughout the entire book. She doesn't want to make things that easy for us, or for Harry. vmonte: Well, the way Snape feels about Lupin and Sirius is very different from what he feels for Dumbledore. He loathes L&S and he wants revenge for...I guess what happened at school when he was a teenager. Can you imagine? He's been waiting a long time for revenge, so yes, vegeance must be sweet for him. (Get over it Snape, for heaven's sake.) But with Dumbledore why should he feel vengeance? Gloat about what? Did Dumbledore wrong him or hurt him in anyway? I think that killing Dumbledore was the only way Snape could get out of Hogwarts alive. (You know the pact he made with Draco?) Snape just made the choice to save his skin, that's all. I also like the part in PoA when Sirius says that he would have died for James. I have no doubt that Dumbledore would have died for Snape. Snape probably thinks that's just stupid. Vivian From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 04:04:26 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:04:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher Sent to Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135491 marrianne writes: > Sirius shouted "Get out!" at one point to >Kreacher, who promptly left the house entirely and hightailed it to >the Malfoys. He was not accompanying Sirius anywhere. If Kreacher >can interpret a non-specific order in such a way as to leave the >house to which he is bound, I still don't see why the house's master >can't tell the house-elf to go to a specific other location for some >duration of time. Kreacher left 12GP in response to a direct order from his master. BUT, he came back, he had no choice in the matter. Kreacher could have been sent to Hogwarts or Timbuktu for a brief period, but he would have come back. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 04:11:57 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:11:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Your take on locket? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135492 Potioncat writes: >I believe RAB put the fake!horcrux in the basin because I don't think >he/she could have gotten the real one out. And I don't think LV did >it himself because he would have known the horcrux was fake. But I >don't think the basin knew the difference. And it's very likely that >RAB wasn't supposed to know what the Locket was. Ray replies: I like this. It adds "facts not in evidence", but does not conflict with any known canon. Potioncat again >And if I'm correct, Regulus' body was never found. So he isn't ruled >out as RAB. (yet) Ray: I wanted to re-read OotP Chapter 6 "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" before replying to this part. Regulus' precise date of death is listed on the Tapestry, and Black does not say anything about the body not being found. Pity, the concept that Regulus is one of the Inferi in the lake appeals to me. - But then, I'm weird. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Fri Jul 29 04:12:52 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:12:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Koshchei Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135493 When I found out about Horcruxes, I immediately thought of the story of Koshchei the Deathless in Russian mythology. Koshchei was a fairly standard-issue Evil Wizard, but he had sneakily stashed his heart, which was his one vulnerable spot, outside of his body in a hiding place. Without a vulnerable point, he couldn't be killed, and he went on a grand old rampage until some smart fellow figured out his secret and destroyed his disembodied heart. I wonder---did JKR take the idea for Horcruxes from this story? --Eric Oppen, who is already impatiently awaiting Book Seven. I can wait---I'm grown-up, I'm patient---I WANT IT NOW! WANT-WANT-WANT, MINE- MINE-MINE, ME-ME-ME-ME!!! *throwing myself on the floor and rolling around, kicking my heels, screaming and holding my breath till my face turns blue* From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 04:14:58 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:14:58 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135494 Merrylinks: > The way I read that, Harry's concern is not Draco, but the safety > of the school. Dumbledore dismisses his concern. If Dumbledore's > boggart is causing other people suffering or death because of his > own mistakes, he has now set himself up to experience that very > thing. (We agree that DD is not worried about Draco's attempts on > his life.) Jen: In retrospect it looks like Dumbledore set himself and the school up by not listening to Harry. But....it's that darn POV problem again. We don't know what Dumbledore was doing about the Draco problem outside of Harry's vision, or whose side Snape was really on at that point in the story. So for me, I extrapolated out that Dumbledore cut off Harry's line of inquiry because it's not really important news to him. And Harry, much as I love him, also had vengeance on his mind that night. He mentions the safety of the school, appealing to Dumbledore's greatest concern, but I don't think his motivation was pure. Then we find out on the tower what DD does and does not know: "I did not dare speak to you of the mission with which I knew you had been entrusted, in case he used Legilimency against you." (chap. 27, p. 591). So Dumbledore knew the part where Draco is supposed to kill him. His error came here: "So the Death Eaters were able to pass from Borgin and Burkes into the school to help you...A clever plan, a very clever plan...and as you say, right under my nose." (p. 587) Two things could have happened when Harry tried to talk to DD that night: 1) Dumbledore suspected Draco was using the Room of Requirement to finalize his plot to kill him, so he wasn't overly concerned about Harry's news, or 2) Dumbledore assumed Snape was taking care of Draco problem. Either way, DD must have felt it safe to leave Hogwarts because, as you said, student safety was his primary concern. Merrylinks: > My read on DD's begging and pleading in the cave is that it's not > for himself, but for the safety of the students. If you are right, > if the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort > of like an extreme dementor attack, then DD's constant pleading is > consistent with that. On the Tower he acts more in character, but > recall that when DD says, "Severus...", it says, "The sound > frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. > For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading." Pleading, not for > himself, but for the safety of the students, just as he had in an > extreme way in the cave. > What do you think? Jen: I think I'm getting confused ! Why would he be pleading with Snape for the safety of the students? That moment between them was very personal. Dumbledore just realized Snape was not trustworthy and betrayed him, or Dumbledore is appealing to Snape to do what he must and make a show of killing him. There are probably other options as well. But I do think it was a moment between the two of them, and had everything to do with their personal relationship. Jen From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:11:19 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Schumar1999) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:11:19 -0000 Subject: Possible reason for giving Snape the job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135495 Kelly says: > My real question is why did Jo make Snape the > DADA teacher? What was her reason for writing the story this way? > After all, she could have had Harry scrape an O in Potions. AA says: Although this is neither a direct nor complete answer, we do know that Snape could _not_ possibly be Potions master while Harry was discovering the wonders of the HBP textbook, for obvious reasons. Marianne S: One thing I find VERY clear about Harry's work using the HBP textbook is that if Snape had ever given him a chance.. if he had treated him impartially in class and not taunted and maligned Harry right from the start (I'm still resentful about Snape and Harry's first potions lesson back in PS/SS and almost every potions class since) Harry most likely could have followed Snape's directions to be as uccessful potion maker. In fact, had Harry gotten unprejudiced treatment from the start, he might have even been able to gain some Lily-like intuition in the art of Potions. His ability to get an E despite Snape's horrible treatment of him, plus the fact that we saw that Harry was able to follow Snape's directions back in OotP at the time when Snape was pretty much leaving Harry alone after seeing "Snape's Worst Memory." Harry only lost out on getting a good mark because of Malfoy's interference and Hermione's "help" though I doubt Snape would have given him a fair shake Regardless. From a literary standpoint, I think that it was right for JKR to make Snape the DADA teacher. 1) It foreshadowed that Snape would most likely be leaving Hogwarts (even the students discussed this point). 2) It made Snape available to teach Harry important things about DADA that possibly no one else could have, without having to relive the fiasco of private tutoring. (Like AA, I would have loved to be in that class though still not as much as Lupin's). 3) We needed to get Slughorn there to reveal the memory about the horcruxes AND to show Harry what was possible in potions with a fair and just teacher (even if this teacher was more the HBP than Slughorn himself) and 4)I think it was very wise for Harry to learn a great deal from HBP and even regard him as almost a "friend," finding a way to defend and trust him even after Sectumsempra (like how Dumbledore always defends and trusts Snape as well). Sectumsempra itself was a very wise device because it allowed us to see that Harry has a conscience, even against his enemies, and I think it is important that we never see Snape himself use a hex this evil against anybody. even when he clearly had the chance. Marianne S. From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 03:58:22 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:58:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135496 > Sherry now: > > If Dumbledore and Snape had some goofy plan, or even a serious plan, and if > Snape indeed is the one who could better protect Harry, why didn't anyone > think to tell Harry before it all happened? i just don't believe it. It > would make Dumbledore into a pretty evil wizard himself, in my opinion, to > have pulled something like that. >sherry Hey Sherry, I am not going to lie to you; you gave me some very good arguments. Also, thanks so much for your time, and quick reply. Now, getting to the point, when you said, ?If Dumbledore and Snape had some goofy plan, or even a serious plan, and if Snape indeed is the one who could better protect Harry, why didn't anyone think to tell Harry before it all happened? ? the reason I was inclined to believe this was because of the OOTP. Remember when Dumbledore wouldn't tell Harry ANYTHING that was going on, till the end. It was so frustrating for Harry, he did not want to know much about Dumbledore because of this. I recall Harry yelling and yelling at Dumbledore for the way he chooses to do things. Indeed, Dumbledore could have prevented many things from happening, maybe even the death of Sirius. But this is just how Dumbledore operates. ?You cant teach and old dog new tricks?. Yes, it is true, Dumbledore recognizes that he made a fault, at that time, but that doesn't stop him of stumbling twice on the same rock. He is only human. And I am not saying that his mission is to torture Harry, although I know that Snape would get plenty of kicks out of it, but it wasn't Dumbledore?s mission to frustrate Harry on OOTP. Again, it is just the way he does things. And I also guess it was important for Harry to see Dumbledore die. I posted earlier: Maybe Dumbledore was interested in Harry seeing him die. For instance, if Harry finally sees Dumbledore, the best Wizard ever, die before his eyes, maybe just maybe he would finally realize that he is also human. And with this, he would start to believe in himself, mature a lot, and acknowledge the great wizard he also is. Since in all the books he always doubts his powers, he is just human. For example, in the first book, after Hagrid tells him he is a wizzard, he does not believe it, even though all the weird stuff he had done throughout his life that he could not explain. And then afterwards he learned pretty well that he is a wizard, but could not believe that he is the wizzard that Dumbledore expects him to be. UNTIL NOW! In conclusion, I guess Dumbledore wanted Harry to meditate on his death, so that he starts believing in himself, as he did at the end of the 6th book, where it is obvious he has matured a lot. Furthermore, I can't remember who posted in ?Of caves and Tarot cards?, that maybe Dumbledore is a human Pheonix. That was really interesting too. Best wishes, Dilia DeleteReplyForwardSpamMove... Previous | Next | Back to Messages Save Message Text From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 04:42:14 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:42:14 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135497 I have been thinking about the fact that DD does not seem like himself. Yet I am sure that it was DD on the tower, and that he is dead. Here is my theory as to why DD does some things that are out of character for him. The thing that gets to me the most is the way he keeps saying how smart he is, and this is not the humble man that I know DD to be. So what happens when you destroy a horcrux? I think that somehow some of the Darkness of LV goes into the person that destroys it. I have not thought this through as much as I would like to. I don't remember Harry being any different after CS. But then Harry used the Basilisk to destroy the horcrux in the diary, and this was sort of like destroying evil with evil or something like that. DD on the other hand, (no pun intended) did not do that. When you don't use LV's own powers against him do you end up taking part of him into yourself? This thought is along the line of DD being a horcrux himself after destroying the ring. If we look at Christian theology of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and compare that to DD in this book we can see DD taking part of the evil one into himself. During the crucifixion Jesus took the evil of the world into himself and in so doing he transformed it, also for a brief moment in time while this was happening Jesus was separated from the Godhead (the Father). Is this what DD is doing? Has he taken the evil that was LV out of the ring and into himself? If DD did become a sort of horcrux in this way, this would explain why he acted so out of character at times. He had part of LV within him. LV would be the *proud* one. Maybe when LV set up the horcrux system he did it so that anyone that tried to destroy one would take that part of him into themselves. From this point maybe the part of LV would then *try* to act within the host personality to kill someone to again make another horcrux of an object. This would also explain the plea that we see in DD as a KILL ME. This is like when LV took over Harry for a bit in Book 5. Maybe what Snape saw in DD and what caused him to have such a look of hatred in his eye was not DD, not the idea of AKing DD, but the part of LV that he saw in DD. The main problem with this theory (and there are many) is while it fits with the DD is symbolic of Jesus on the cross; it does not fit with Harry in the CS. Harry does not have any more of LV in him than he may have had in the beginning. I don't know where to go with this and I have probably not said it very clearly. The whole idea is a bit complicated. Any helpers? Tonks_op From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 04:26:25 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:26:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and Koshchei In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135498 Truth be told, in The Magical World of Harry Potter, written by David Colbert, he points out how Avada Kedavra, Sirius Black, Centaurs, Dementors, Dragons, Druids, Flamel, Sorcerer Stone, Giants, Hippogriffs, Kappas, Mirror of Erised, Nagini, Runes, Sphinx, Trolls, Unicorns, Wands, Wizards, and many others, have a historical background. In other words, they were not invented by J.K. Not with standing, in this book, it also mentions how some of these things were somehow real. So, I would not discard your Voldemort and Koshchei theory, sound right to me. Dilia From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 05:00:28 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:00:28 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135499 > Snape saw in DD and what caused him to have such a look of hatred in > his eye was not DD, not the idea of AKing DD, but the part of LV > that he saw in DD. > > The main problem with this theory (and there are many) is while it > fits with the DD is symbolic of Jesus on the cross; it does not fit > with Harry in the CS. Harry does not have any more of LV in him > than he may have had in the beginning. > > I don't know where to go with this and I have probably not said it > very clearly. The whole idea is a bit complicated. Any helpers? > > Tonks_op I guess, I would like to think that if DD knew something like this was going on with him, he would mention it to Harry, seeing that Harry was to help destroy the other Horcrux with DD. And even though, I tried to see the connection you made with Jesus and the cross, I am going to have to disagree. I am not trying to change your mind, because, I am just not in accord. The thing is that Jesus died as Sacrifice. DD did not die as a Sacrifice. There are rituals, and things I can't remember just know, that lead to a sacrifice. I don't know if you're following me, but Jesus sacrifice happen to save us. He pleads to his father, for our salvation. I am afraid it is two different things. Do you imagine that there would have to be 6 more ?sacrifice? in the 7th book? It quite does not convince me... Great imagination though. Dilia From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Fri Jul 29 04:31:38 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:31:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135500 Schumar/Marianne S: > I believe the point of seeing the Pensieve memories in the third > person is that we get to see what ACTUALLY happened, not a biased > interpretation of the rememberer. I think this can serve not only > other people, but it gives the wizards a greatchance to look from > outside themselves to analyze something that took place...much like > people videotape themselves for future analysis. Gatta: I don't really buy it, but I'll grant you the Pensieve. But what about when Harry actually reads Snape's mind during the Occulmency lesson? Does Snape *normally* see himself "outside over there"? I think psychologists have a word for this sort of thing, but I can't remember what it is. From dlatchman at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 04:40:35 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:40:35 -0400 Subject: Lily apparating with Harry In-Reply-To: <215.5b8aa60.301aaf54@aol.com> References: <215.5b8aa60.301aaf54@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135501 I can't agree that Lily actually had time to apparate away with her son. Of course, from the time James was killed to when Voldemort approached her and Harry she would had more than enough time to do something. Maybe there were protections in the house to prevent apprations and disapprations. I doubt that a Fidelus Charm was the only protection on the house. David L. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dlatchman at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 04:58:31 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:58:31 -0400 Subject: How do the horcruxes work and why does the prophecy contradict it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135502 Hi, Valky, In the mugglenet/TLC interview JKR appears to be absolutely > contradicting that Horcruxes work this way by saying that the "soul > piece" in the diary was definitely "destroyed" and is now gone. > So unless there is some *extra* explanation revealing why/how the soul > piece in the diary wasn't "bound to the ground" by the other pieces of > itself, I can completely sympthise with those who can't understand how > Horcruxes work. It simply doesn't make logical sense to me. > I won't say that there is a necessary contradiction. It depends on how you look at it. I imagine the act of destroying the Horcrux means that it can not be returned. When Harry destroyed the book Horcrux and DD destroyed the ring horcrux those two portions can never again be used for the purpose of being a new Horcrux. So even though the soul can never be destroyed in the sense of cease to exist for all intents and purposes they have been destroyed in that they can never be used again. So as you said in the later part of your analysis I don't think that we'll have little Voldie ghosts floating around. I would agree that the diary Horcrux was created by an inexperienced Vodemort; I would go as far as to say that inexprience is due to the arrogance of his youth hence the reason why it wasn't as well protected as the others. I think in the next book the other Horcruxes will be much harder to destroy and it will take much more of Harry's skill, cunning and intelligence to destroy them. (Come on... He didn't think Voldy would make it easy?) David L. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 05:59:26 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729055926.77849.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135503 Samantha wrote: Hi Potterphiles! In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Snapeo'phile Lynda says: She is the only girl out of seven children, so that's a distinct possibility. Think of all the girls whose parents spend way too much of their paycheck to buy their daughter a dress for the prom, while their son is sent out to rent his tuxedo for an evening. Lynda Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "HPforGrownups" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 06:24:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:24:13 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy - Getting Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I vaguely remember reading that Lucius was only charged with breaking > and entering, and attempting to steal the Prophecy. The assault and > attempted murder charges were never brought against him. Which brings > me to my point; I vaguely remember reading that Lucius was sentenced > to something like 18 months for his crimes. That means he will get out > around January in the next book. > > My problem is I can't remember where, or even if, I read this. Does > any one recall reading this; can you confirm it for me? > > ... > > Thanks, > > Steve/bboyminn bboyminn: I did manage to track down one reference to this. --- Quote - HBP; Am Ed, HB, Pg 39 --- [From the article in the Daily Prophet] ...the Death Eaters now serving sentences in Azkaban for trespess and attempted theft... - - - end quote - - - Remember that in the last book, (pg 287) Sturgis Podmore was convicted of 'trespess and attempted robbery' and was only sentences to SIX months. I was sure I read something somewhere about Lucius being sentence to 18 months but I've yet to be able to find it. If anyone stumbles across that reference, please post it. Thanks. In any event, I don't think Lucius was convicted of being a Death Eater or being in league with Voldemort, so I expect him to be out of prison soon. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 06:29:49 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:29:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135505 Lynda writes: >[Ginny] is the only girl out of seven children, so that's a distinct possibility. Think of all the >girls whose parents spend way too much of their paycheck to buy their daughter a dress for >the prom, while their son is sent out to rent his tuxedo for an evening. Ray adds: I do not disagree with this analysis, I would just like to raise two possibilities. While we don't actually know Neville's resources, he comes from an old family, and may have thought it a nice gesture to pay for his dates gown. Or perhaps Gran leant her one. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 07:36:14 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:36:14 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching (was: Question..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135506 Julia wrote: > It's really strange - that Snape's case. According to him in OotP he > started working 14 years ago (which can be after Potters death!) BUT > in HBP he says to Bellatrix: 'I had sixteen years of information on > Dumbledore to give him when he returned'. How can this be? In HBP he > is refering to him staying in Hogwart so unless he helped Hagrid, > Filtch or cook with other hause elves he had to teach! When is he > saying the true? I am under the impression that he isnt honest with > Bellatrix but then, shouldnt Bellatrix at least knew when he became > a spy at Hogwarts?? > It's really confusing, someone has an idea?? Carol responds: For me, the only thing that's confusing is the "sixteen years," which ought to be fifteen if he had taught at Hogwarts for fourteen years in OoP. (Maybe sixteen is a slip and refers to the time when Severus began *spying* for Dumbledore, or maybe it's just JKR's maths.) Also, it's unclear who originated the idea of Snape's teaching and spying at Hogwarts. He tells Bellatrix that he applied on Voldemort's orders, which is no doubt true, but Snape was already spying for Dumbledore and could have originated the idea himself to get away from Voldemort on the pretense of spying for him. In any case, it fit neatly into everyone's agenda, including Dumbledore's (he would have wanted to keep Snape away from Voldemort even more than from DADA). To return to the timeline: Several months before Harry's birth, around April 1980, Snape overhears the beginning of the Prophecy and reports it to Voldemort. He is presumably at this time a loyal DE. (Trelawney, it seems, was hired at an odd time of year. (PoA) Some time after this incident, before he begins teaching at Hogwarts, Snape for unknown reasons "returns to our side" and begins spying for Dumbledore. (Pensieve scene, Karkaroff's hearing, GoF) Around August 1981, assuming that OoP's "fourteen years" is correct, he applies for the vacant DADA position and is hired instead to teach Potions. (I assume that the Potions teacher was moved to DADA and became the next victim of the jinx.) He begins teaching on September 1, 1981. (All school years in HP begin on this date.) Two months later, at midnight on October 31, the Potters are killed. Snape is not there. He is at Hogwarts, exactly as he tells Bellatrix (HBP, "Spinner's End"). Since he is trying to persuade the skeptical Bellatrix of his loyalty, it is most unlikely that this particular statement is false. He has also used it, and the other answers that he gives her, to persuade Voldemort of his loyalty. As he tells Bellatrix, the fact that he is still alive is proff that Voldemort believed him. Some of these answers are almost certainly lies, for example, his assertion that he didn't know that Voldemort was inside Quirrel's head or that Voldemort was still alive (even after Quirrel's death). But the statement that he was at Hogwarts when LV fell must be true or Bellatrix would not have conceded it. (She still doubts his loyalty to Voldemort; I think we should, too. She doesn't doubt that Voldemort's skill as a Legilimens exceeds Snape's as an Occlumens; I think we should.) IOW, we can now set aside any theories that Snape was at Godric's Hollow. Clearly, he was not. (Wormtail, however, must have been there in order to pick up Voldemort's wand.) We should also suspect that Dumbledore's explanation for his belief in Snape's loyalty, Snape's remorse for the Potters' deaths at Godric's Hollow, is only part of the story. Snape was already at Hogwarts when they died, and he had already risked his life as a spy for Dumbledore before becoming a teacher. There must be an "ironclad" reason for Dumbledore's trust and a parallel explanation for Snape's conversion. We just haven't heard them yet. Carol From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 29 08:34:57 2005 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:34:57 -0000 Subject: The fourth horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135507 Hi, Everyone has more or less accepted that the the third horcrux is the Slytherin locketand how it will be found. I was wondering about the fourth horcrux, the Hufflepuff cup. It was with a woman named Hepzibah Smith. Is she in someway related to Zacharias Smith? Now Zacharias is not so charming character that we were introduced to in book 5. I thought his role there was to serve as a succesful redherring till the real sneak is revealed. But he also reapperas in book6 and more so than Neville and Luna who have been sorely missed. So will finding the fourth horcrux lead somehow to this not epecially liked student? By the way, what was Peverell coat-of-arms? Bye Adi From ShylahM at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 08:55:18 2005 From: ShylahM at gmail.com (Shylah) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:55:18 +1200 Subject: R.A.B Identity Message-ID: <403e946f050729015565682d@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135508 I was re-reading HBP again, and I came to page 369. UK version. Anyhow, it deals with the note that R.A.B has left Quoting To the Dark Lord I know will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that *when you meet your match*, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B. Now, the segment was running through my mind later and I the bolded part of the note jumped out at me. The person who wrote this probably has to be someone who has heard the prophecy. I don't mean the full one, the partial is more than enough. That should help narrow it down considerably. The number of people on Dumbledore's side that know it, even just what was overheard, seems to be minimal. Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 09:27:19 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:27:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort & Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135509 In HBP we are given a fair amount of info that Hogwarts is very important to Voldemort. We also know that Dumbledore was the only reason that Voldemort didn't take over at Hogwarts last time. I think it is a fair bet that the end of book 7 will take place with Voldemort taking over at Hogwarts (what will happen to poor old McGonagall!). Harry will get in using Marauder's map? From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 10:02:26 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape kills V In-Reply-To: <8c.2bcf8a59.301ac9f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050729100226.43201.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135510 --- catportkey at aol.com wrote: > Do you think that Snape played both sides of the > game for his own benefit? > He's destroyed Dumbledor, he may be able to destroy > V. by slyly "helping" > Harry kill V. Harry would be oblivious to Snape's > final purpose, i.e.: Snape > wants to become the most powerful -- the new lord. > > Then Harry and Snape have to have it out. > Janice > I don't know about Snape about being the 'new' dark lord but I have always had a feeling he may be playing both sides against the middle to see who wins. which ever way you look at it Snape could try to claim to whom ever wins he helped them out for he was acting in their own best intrests and that he was only acting the way he was to futher whom evers best intrests. laurie ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 29 10:27:50 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:27:50 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Why_Lupin=A1=A6s_father_offered_him_to_a_wicked_were?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?wolf=3F?= Message-ID: <004c01c59428$2c87d7f0$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135511 Angel said: >>It arouses me a lot of curiosity when Lupin told Harry in the Chapter ??Very Frosty Christmas?? (don??t have to book right now to turn to the page, sorry?K) that in fact his father ??had offered?? Greyback, the wicked werewolf, to bit the little boy Lupin and turned the latter to be one of them. >>Under what circumstances would a father lead his own son for such a miserable life? CathyD now: I think you need to re-read that section, Angel. I do not get any inference that Lupin, Sr "offered up" his son to Greyback. Lupin, Sr., somehow offended Greyback and Greyback took that out on young Remus. At least that was my take. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 29 10:28:09 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:28:09 -0400 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore Message-ID: <005001c59428$378e1bf0$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135512 Jules said; >> It's kind of suspicious when the beloved brother of the deceased does not show to his funeral. He's not mentioned any where! CathyD now: Aberforth is at the funeral. "some people whom Harry merely knew by sight, such as the barman of the Hog's Head" (pg 598 Can Ed) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 29 10:38:42 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:38:42 -0400 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . Nope Message-ID: <005401c59429$b1146140$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135513 Julie >>The Sorting Hat also belonged to Gryffindor. In GOF in his sorting song the hat clearly states that he was taken directly from GG's head, thus belonging to him. CathyD now: I think the Sorting Hat is pretty safe. It is stored in Dumbledore's office. Dumbledore feels that LV/Riddle murdered once (his father/grandparents - which made the diary Horcrux) and then again (he feels it was the second time only) to steal the locket and Hufflepuff cup. That happened in the year or few after he left Hogwarts. There was a 10 year span between the time of the Hepzibah Smith memory and the time DD says LV showed up at Hogwarts wanting a teaching position. While he may have been able to zap his Award for Special Services into a Horcrux, or sneak an already made Horcrux into the Room of Requirement (on his way in or out of DD's office), I don't think he would have been able to cast the spell to turn the Sorting Hat into a Horcrux right there in front of DD. DD can sense that 'this place has known magic' and 'magic always leaves traces, sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style." I think he would have been well aware of what LV was doing had he attempted it at that moment. DD never says that LV was ever inside the school again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 11:30:58 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:30:58 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: <20050729055926.77849.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135514 Samantha wrote: Hi Potterphiles! In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Lynda said: She is the only girl out of seven children, so that's a distinct possibility. Think of all the girls whose parents spend way too much of their paycheck to buy their daughter a dress for the prom, while their son is sent out to rent his tuxedo for an evening. vmonte responds: Girls also share clothes, unlike boys. Ginny could have borrowed an extra robe from one of the girls in her class or from Hermione. Think about when you were a teenager. My brother had one suit for special occassions, and that was enough for him. I had a closet full of special occassion clothes. And my friends and I shared clothes all of the time. I'm sure Ginny would have several girl friends with extra robes to spare. Also, Ginny has the luck of being the only girl in her family. The boys get hand-me-downs, but Ginny cannot. Vivian From ejblack at rogers.com Fri Jul 29 12:14:55 2005 From: ejblack at rogers.com (Jeanette) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:14:55 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135515 Don't forget George and Fred! They are doing very well indeed with their joke shop. I can't see them not helping out the family with some extra cash. Even if Molly woundn't take the money for general household expenses I am sure it would be put towards school supplies and clothes for Ron and Ginny. Jeanette From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 29 10:54:16 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:54:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135516 Phoenixgod2000: > > I've been thinking about this while I reread select parts of HBP and I > have to say that this is the one part of the book where I think DD > lets me down. I find it absolutely amazing (and infuriating) that DD > who has always insisted on Harry giving Snape respect when he knows > that Snape is the person who set in motion the events that left Harry > an orphan. It seems to that is a slap in the face towards Harry and > his loss. And when Harry comes to him in righteous anger he completely > dismisses Harry's feelings. > > I don't think it matters which side Snape comes down on in the end. I > won't be able to see him as anything other than evil. The way this man > treats the two students he managed to help orphan tells me he can't be > anything else. > Yes, that does open a can of worms, doesn't it? JKR just seems to have a very hard time finding stable ground for Dumbledore when it comes to immense pain that has been afflicted on Harry (partly through his own decisions). He seems cold and lacking in compassion at the end of OOTP, outraged at the Dursleys at the beginning of HBP, and then dismissive at the end of HBP. Meanwhile, on other boards, the whole "DD softening Harry up at the Dursleys" is gaining ground again. Round and round we go. Obviously there is more to go (the hesitant moment that DD has when he seems about to tell Harry something). And JKR has said we will learn some more about DD (although how much is open to doubt). What will be revealed I don't dare guess. But once again, Dumbledore seems like someone has cast a Plotus Devicium spell on him. Overall, I would tend to agree with your evaluation. Is Snape a DE? No. Was he honestly working for Dumbledore through at least most of the series? Yes. Did Dumbledore intend to die on the tower? I don't know, but I doubt it - that would be SO contrived (although then again the whole Snape subplot in HBP reeks of contrivance, so I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong here). Is Snape evil? I think he is torn, and very likely to fall into evil given the right motivation. Lupinlore From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 29 12:19:33 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:19:33 -0000 Subject: Timeline for Snape's change of heart (was: Snape, Voldemort, and teaching) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > mooseming proposed: > > > The timeline for Snape's change of heart, the protection of GH > > > and Voldy's attack on same is difficult to explain in terms of > > > good! Snape but I've come up with a model. > > > > Essentially this timeline is based on a completely non canon > > > assumption that the *only* record of births is kept at Hogwarts. > > > > This means he needs to get into Hogwarts to access the complete > > > record of births > > > > > > So timeline is: > > > Snape overhears prophecy > > > Tells Voldy > > > Voldy needs to identify who is prophecy boy > > > Something happens to Snape/Voldy dynamic which makes DETraitor! > > > Snape > > > Snape joins DD becomes double agent > > > Voldy sends Snape to find info on babies at Hogwarts (possibly > > > Snape's suggestion) > > Marianne: > > In response to one of your questions and one of your assumptions > > about the Potters not going into hiding, JKR refutes this in her > > recent interview. When speaking of Harry's baptism she says that > > had to be a very small gathering because Harry was already in > > danger and the Potters already had gone into hiding. So, it seems > > that the Potters were in hiding from at least Harry's birth to his > > parents' death 15 months later. > > Second thought has to do with Marianne's mention of Harry's > christening. Here's the actual quote from the Edinburgh Book Fair: > > Q: Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance > in future books? > > A: No, he doesn't. I have thought this through. If Sirius had > married Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When > Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last > time so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just > Sirius, just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the > Potters would have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do > the big christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the > only one, unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, > haven't I? Marianne: AHA! A disrepancy! This was not the quote I meant. I was referring to the very recent 3-part Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview. The relevant portion is: JKR: "At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding. This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was already in danger. So this is something they were going to do very quietly, with as few people as possible, that they wanted to make this commitment with Sirius. And ? yeah. Can't say much more." > SSSusan again: > It says Harry was born at "the very height of Voldemort fever," not > specifically that Harry was in danger. And it says "it looked *as > if* the Potters would have to go into hiding," not that they already > were. This is perhaps a bit of nitpicking, but it does give a > slightly different feel to things -- almost as if the WW and The > Order were in danger in general, but not necessarily that the > Potters/Harry were known to be specific targets at this point. Marianne: So what we have is that in the old quote the Potters were not in hiding. In the new quote, Harry is indeed in danger and the Potters are in hiding. You're right, Susan, one quote does give a somewhat different feel than the other. The question now is, which one is giving us the right story? Marianne From bhavna at impsmanagement.com Fri Jul 29 11:42:01 2005 From: bhavna at impsmanagement.com (Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:12:01 +0530 Subject: Snape's Gaze Message-ID: <02ef01c59432$89ee5220$2c00a8c0@tasneem> No: HPFGUIDX 135518 leslie41 wrote: "My point in rewriting it was to show that Rowling most definitely wants there to be ambiguity in how we view Snape at this point. If she wanted his motives and his feelings toward DD to be plain, she would have written in (as I suggested) a glare instead of a gaze," Just to add on ...a gaze is more like a thoughtful pause - it sounds more like Snape is reading DD's mind and comprehending it . DD probably gives him a silent order - Do the AK on me Snape ...and Snape's utter disgust, hatred and revulsion towards doing dark magic again shows on his face before he finally concedes to DD's last order to him. Bhavna. From samwisep at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 09:23:23 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:23:23 -0000 Subject: pudgy boys need love too Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135519 HI Potterphiles! Poor Neville! Whilst everyone eles in Hogwarts was snogging it up, poor Neville has only his mimbulus mimbletonia to cuddle up to. Since JKR has already shot down Luna and Neville getting together, do you think Neville will ever find true love/hot kisses? Will his mom and dad ever get better? (I truly hope so) Neville has been through a lot, and I feel like he could use a little happiness. Snapeo'phile From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 12:24:14 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:24:14 -0000 Subject: R.A.B Identity In-Reply-To: <403e946f050729015565682d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135520 I was re-reading HBP again, and I came to page 369. UK version. Anyhow, it deals with the note that R.A.B has left Quoting To the Dark Lord I know will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that *when you meet your match*, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B. Now, the segment was running through my mind later and I the bolded part of the note jumped out at me. The person who wrote this probably has to be someone who has heard the prophecy. I don't mean the full one, the partial is more than enough. That should help narrow it down considerably. The number of people on Dumbledore's side that know it, even just what was overheard, seems to be minimal. vmonte: I don't think that Snape is the person that wrote that note. I think that as simple as it may be it's Regulus's note. I've already posted that Kreacher was with Regulus that day and that I'm sure that Kreacher was made to drink the potion. (I'm reminded of HBP when Slughorn mentions that he is using the elves to taste test ingredients in order to make sure nothing is poisioned.) Why else keep Kreacher in the books unless he has some important information to give Harry? I do think that Snape is involved though, somehow. Snape is always sneaking around in other peoples business. He was very interested in knowing where Lupin went every month when he was a Hogwarts student. And he was always hounding James as well. I'm pretty sure that Snape would have noticed if Regulus was doing something on the side. In fact, I bet that Snape had something to do with his death. Regulus also knows that he will probably get killed before he can find all the horcruxes. He goes to the Longbottoms and tells them where some of these are. The Longbottoms are tortured but never give up the information. Snape was there with Bellatrix (was it ever proven that Crouch Jr. was there as well?). Snape only tells Bellatrix that the Longbottoms have info on Voldemort. Does Snape hate the Longbottoms? It could be why he picks on Neville at school. Just a thought. Vivian From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 12:29:43 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:29:43 -0000 Subject: more differences was Re: Dumbledore + Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > But Rachel, in message 134207, quotes the following.... > page 591-592 "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come > over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely > than you can possibly imagine." > ...which gave rise the whole thread, because the first sentence does not occur in the UK/Canadian editions. Karen: The plot thickens because further differences between the UK and US versions on the same topic have come to light: > Tim Regan wrote: >Here's what he says in the UK edition: >"What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother > tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in > Azkaban ..." > In the USA edition there are two addition sentences between those > two, > Lynn: > The two sentences in between are: > "Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to > kill me -forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor > would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and > killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after > all." (US p. 592) Karen again: At first I took this to be a small editorial error, but now I think there can be no doubt that JKR decided to remove all reference to the 'pretending someone's dead' plot but somehow it got left in the American edition. I doubt very much that she will remain unaware of this debate and so I think we should watch her site carefully. If no explaination is forthcoming I think we can assume that this is very very significant. Who is really alive that we think is dead? Sirius? She asks hopefully, but not really expectantly. Nor Dumbledore I think. Karen From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 12:38:52 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:38:52 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135522 vmonte: > > To belabor the obvious, Malfoy calls Hermione a Mudblood because from > his POV 1) it's intended to hurt, but even more 2) it's accurate. I > think what was being put forward is that there are probably reasons > that Snape was given that nickname and not another one, as it evokes > some specific qualities. I rather think that "sniveller" or "cry-baby" or something in this vein is as obviously generic as "so-and-so stinks". I also think that it is quite possible that Sirius and Co reduced Snape to helpless tears once or twice in their first year. After all we saw him enjoying a similar pastime with Kreacher. Not that it makes Kreacher in any way a coward, incidentally. In any case, in the Pensive scene Snape did not snivel or cower, and as for the Grimauld 12 episode, it was Sirius who looked ridiculous invoking the childish invective, not Snape. a_svirn From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:06:21 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:06:21 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Merrylinks: > > > The way I read that, Harry's concern is not Draco, but the safety > > of the school. Dumbledore dismisses his concern. If Dumbledore's > > boggart is causing other people suffering or death because of his > > own mistakes, he has now set himself up to experience that very > > thing. (We agree that DD is not worried about Draco's attempts on > > his life.) > > Jen: In retrospect it looks like Dumbledore set himself and the > school up by not listening to Harry. But....it's that darn POV > problem again. We don't know what Dumbledore was doing about the > Draco problem outside of Harry's vision, or whose side Snape was > really on at that point in the story. So for me, I extrapolated out > that Dumbledore cut off Harry's line of inquiry because it's not > really important news to him. > > And Harry, much as I love him, also had vengeance on his mind that > night. He mentions the safety of the school, appealing to > Dumbledore's greatest concern, but I don't think his motivation was > pure. Merrylinks responds: I'm afraid I disagree, Jen. Thanks to legilimency, DD knows what Harry is primarily concerned about, and that is the safety of the school. The problem is, Dumbledore figures he has the safety issue covered. Just like an impatient parent, he dismisses Harry's objections in order to get on with the task at hand. What he doesn't realize is that Harry is bringing him *new* information that requires *new* defense tactics. I think that in this book Harry has matured beyond needing vengeance against Malfoy. His thoughts as he tries to open the Room of Requirement indicate that--"I need to see what Malfoy's doing in here..."; I need to see the place where Malfoy keeps coming secretly..."; I need you to become the place you become for Draco Malfoy..." His objective is to find out what Draco is trying to fix, not trying to fix blame on Draco. The broken item, whatever it is, is dangerous. And once Harry knows that Draco has fixed it, the danger is what he focuses on. > Merrylinks: > > My read on DD's begging and pleading in the cave is that it's not > > for himself, but for the safety of the students. If you are right, > > if the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort > > of like an extreme dementor attack, then DD's constant pleading is > > consistent with that. On the Tower he acts more in character, but > > recall that when DD says, "Severus...", it says, "The sound > > frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. > > For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading." Pleading, not for > > himself, but for the safety of the students, just as he had in an > > extreme way in the cave. > > > What do you think? > > Jen: I think I'm getting confused ! Why would he be pleading with > Snape for the safety of the students? That moment between them was > very personal. Dumbledore just realized Snape was not trustworthy > and betrayed him, or Dumbledore is appealing to Snape to do what he > must and make a show of killing him. There are probably other > options as well. But I do think it was a moment between the two of > them, and had everything to do with their personal relationship. > > Jen Merrylinks replies: Dumbledore's earliest statements in the cave/on the Tower are not addressed to Snape because Snape doesn't show up until late in the Tower scene. Those statements are addressed to the Death Eaters (possibly even as Dumbledore is flying toward the tower) and to the Death Eaters and Draco on top of the Tower. Remember that in the Tower scene, all of the statements are thought statements. Unless a person is a legilimens, he/she won't be able to hear them. Does that make sense? Merrylinks From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:21:12 2005 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:21:12 -0000 Subject: pudgy boys need love too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > HI Potterphiles! > Poor Neville! Whilst everyone eles in Hogwarts was snogging it up, > poor Neville has only his mimbulus mimbletonia to cuddle up to. Since > JKR has already shot down Luna and Neville getting together, do you > think Neville will ever find true love/hot kisses? Will his mom and > dad ever get better? (I truly hope so) Neville has been through a lot, > and I feel like he could use a little happiness. > > Snapeo'phile Doddie here: Just because Neville doesn't have a girlfriend--doesn't mean no snogging occurred!! hence the Won-Won--Lav-Lav ship...not much shpping..much more snogging.. Doddie, (who imagined Ginny giving him a peck at least!) From phoenixtears at fuse.net Fri Jul 29 13:21:56 2005 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:21:56 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > I have been thinking about the fact that DD does not seem like > himself. Yet I am sure that it was DD on the tower, and that he is > dead. > > Here is my theory as to why DD does some things that are out of > character for him. The thing that gets to me the most is the way he > keeps saying how smart he is, and this is not the humble man that I > know DD to be. > Has he taken the evil that was LV out of the ring and into himself? > Reply: Others have also posted that DD in HBP acted in manner "not like himself." My reaction has been: perhaps DD seems different in HBP because this is the first book in which Harry, and therefore " we," get to spend a significant amount of time with DD. Harry and we get to know DD "better," and therefore he may "seem" different. DD is presented to Harry, and to the readers, as some paragon of wisdom and virtue for most of the first 5 books, and while he largely deserves this reputation compared to most of the other characters, we don't start focusing on his humanness/flaws until the end of OofP. In addition, Harry and we are seeing DD in different circumstances, including a time when DD may be more stressed as LV is gaining in strength, more people are dying, and DD is feeling more urgency to defeat LV/prepare Harry to defeat LV even as DD is weakening from old age and/or injury. But personally, I didn't see DD as acting so differently. About the arrogance that others have mentioned: even in PS/SS, DD tells Harry at the end (talking about hiding the Stone in the Mirror of Erised) "It was one of my more brilliant ideas, and between you and me, that's saying something." (p. 300, US ed.) I suspect we have more of these moments in HBP because Harry is spending more time with DD, and because Harry is arguing with DD more often, so we have repeated incidences of DD, like a parent dealing with a teenager, saying "trust my judgment; I know more than you, have more experience, etc.. And, like any parent of a teenager, normally calm and unflappable DD gets impatient with Harry, who is sometimes annoying in HBP. DD IS brilliant, magically powerful, cleverer than most: is it really arrogance when you ARE that much better than most? Or is it hard not to be a little arrogant when you have bested others, or been proven right, so often? I believe the other reason DD mentions his brilliance to Harry so often in HBP is because JKR is reminding us of this before removing him from the stage. The 7th book will begin with a lot of characters doubting whether to trust DD judgement and his plan, now that he is gone. But Harry shows at the end of HBP that he intends to follow DD's plan, having accepted DD's judgment. Phoenix From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 29 13:31:24 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:31:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: <001701c593e6$78159a50$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135526 Dilia: > Nevertheless, here is another question for you guys. Don't you think > that we are not giving Dumbledore the credit he disserves? For > example, maybe he was right about Snape, maybe just maybe > Dumbledore?s down fall was Snape?s promise to protect Malfoy. > > I mean, think about it! Snape had to make that promise, or else, the > death eaters would know he was really on Dumbledore?s side. Not with > standing, Snape could have died if Malfoy did not complete the task; > moreover, perhaps Snape knew something that we did not. For instance, > that Dumbledore was already dying, his hand was rotting, and that he, > Snape, was a better of a use, for Harry, alive than Dumbledore dead. > Or that he and Dumbledore had talked about something like the > encounter they had was going to happen, and they planed it, hence it > was all a hoax. That could explain why Dumbledore froze Harry, so > that he would not ruin the performance that was going to take place. > > Sherry now: > > If Dumbledore and Snape had some goofy plan, or even a serious plan, and if > Snape indeed is the one who could better protect Harry, why didn't anyone > think to tell Harry before it all happened? i just don't believe it. It > would make Dumbledore into a pretty evil wizard himself, in my opinion, to > have pulled something like that. > Also if Dumbledore is still alive, then what does that say about JKR's oft > and vehemently repeated statements that the dead don't come back? Marianne: Is it just me, or am I hearing shades of "Sirius isn't really dead?" The context is different, but the feeling is similar. With Sirius it was - there was no body, we don't think the curse killed him, how could she possibly make Harry suffer the loss of the best connection to his parents, we've already had an unexpected death with Cedric, the veil could just be a way to get to Aruba...and, sure JKR *said* she killed him, but of course, she couldn't say he'd be back because that would ruin the surprise. There are plenty of theories now popping up to change DD's apparent death into some sort of magical ploy to simply make us think he's dead. Body switching, vanishing people, additional unbreakable vows, polyjuiced people (wink, wink - that wasn't DD on the Tower, it was some other person), etc. It seems too implausible to me. I have to agree with Sherry on the question of the inadvisability of keeping Harry in the dark about whatever grand scheme Snape and DD supposedly came up with to cover this non-death. After all, that tactic blew up in their faces once before. And the thought that people can be murdered all over, as has happened througout HBP, while DD can rise from the dead or jump out from behind the curtain or whereever he'd hiding, because he has to come back to help Harry along, would just be cheesy, IMO. At this point, Harry has to do it himself. If you want to use a parallel to LOTR, sure Gandalf came back, but he was always know as a wizard, which was different, somehow, than the men, elves and hobbits of Middle Earth. Dumbledore is a wizard, just like other wizards, even if he is smarter and stronger than most. Smarter and stronger shouldn't equate to an ability to come back from the dead. And, to stick with LOTR a bit longer, Gandalf came back, but had no interaction with Frodo until after Frodo completed his task. At this point in JKR's story, to have the Mentor return to lead the acolyte by the hand would make me wonder why these books are about Harry at all. Marianne From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:32:51 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:32:51 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135527 Oops! I just realized that I completely misunderstood your point in this section. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Merrylinks: > > My read on DD's begging and pleading in the cave is that it's not > > for himself, but for the safety of the students. If you are right, > > if the potion magnifies a person's greatest fears and guilts, sort > > of like an extreme dementor attack, then DD's constant pleading is > > consistent with that. On the Tower he acts more in character, but > > recall that when DD says, "Severus...", it says, "The sound > > frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. > > For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading." Pleading, not for > > himself, but for the safety of the students, just as he had in an > > extreme way in the cave. > > > What do you think? > > Jen: I think I'm getting confused ! Why would he be pleading with > Snape for the safety of the students? That moment between them was > very personal. Dumbledore just realized Snape was not trustworthy > and betrayed him, or Dumbledore is appealing to Snape to do what he > must and make a show of killing him. There are probably other > options as well. But I do think it was a moment between the two of > them, and had everything to do with their personal relationship. > > Jen Let me try again. When Dumbledore silently asks Snape to kill him, his motivation is that by allowing himself to die, he will be protecting the students. I don't believe that DD is casting a Lily- Potter-like protective charm. Rather, he realizes that the immediate objective of Draco and the Death Eaters' invasion of the school is to kill him. Once they do, it will be "Mission Accomplished" and they will all leave. Dumbledore has made a serious error when he doesn't listen to Harry's information about the dangerous thing Draco has fixed. On the Tower, by asking Snape to kill him, DD is able to make a sort of atonement for his error, thus protecting the students from further harm at the wands of the Death Eaters. It is indeed a very personal moment between him and Snape. Dumbledore is sharing with Snape the thing that matters most to him (the safety of the students) and Snape is responding with courageous loyalty to Dumbledore's direct order. I hope that makes it a bit clearer. Merrylinks From hambtty at triad.rr.com Fri Jul 29 13:37:02 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:37:02 -0000 Subject: The fourth horcrux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > Everyone has more or less accepted that the the third horcrux is the > Slytherin locketand how it will be found. I was wondering about the > fourth horcrux, the Hufflepuff cup. It was with a woman named Hepzibah > Smith. Is she in someway related to Zacharias Smith? Now Zacharias is > not so charming character that we were introduced to in book 5. I > thought his role there was to serve as a succesful redherring till the > real sneak is revealed. But he also reapperas in book6 and more so > than Neville and Luna who have been sorely missed. So will finding the > fourth horcrux lead somehow to this not epecially liked student? > By the way, what was Peverell coat-of-arms? > Bye > Adi BG writes: The Peverell Coat-of-Arms has only three bunches of grain - tied with a knotted band. I haven't the time right now to research what they mean - will do so later today. Anyone know their Coat of Arms symbols out there? The seven charms that guarded the PS/SS in Book 1 - the themes of books 1-6 have been linked to these charms. Are the horcruxes linked as well? Could the ring be "plant: devil's snare - charm in PS/SS, mandrake root cure for those petrified in COS, ring - trio of grain bunches on Coat of Arms? Should we be focusing on the charms to help us identify the horcruxes? From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:38:09 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <42E552A8.60601@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <20050729133809.43222.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135529 --- IreneMikhlin wrote: >>shagufta_naazpk2000 wrote: >> And as far as HBP is concerned, Hermione doesnt get anything >> wrong, her potions are textbook perfect, and thats really the >> best a student aims for. > Irene wrote: > OK, maybe mediocre is a wrong word here. But in science there is a > huge > gap between the ability to understand and reproduce the knowledge > that > was created before you, and the ability to create a new knowledge. > Hermione has the first ability in spades, but I'm still not sure > about the second one. I agree with Irene. It's the difference between being a really good cook who can recreate recipes perfectly and being a chef, who can look in the pantry and fridge and make a new creation from scratch. There's nothing wrong with being a really good cook and you can make a good living at it. But if you're a gittish chef, you might be inclined to see it as second-best. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From hambtty at triad.rr.com Fri Jul 29 13:50:55 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:50:55 -0000 Subject: Peverell Coat of Arms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135530 BG writes: Ok, Ok I know I'm obssessed - research - had to do it - now must fly. But my mind will be thinking of how this fits in the scheme of things. Any ideas? The coat of arms is a solid blue background and the wheat garb is white. (See below) Wheat Garb: The harvest of one's hopes has been secured Blue: Truth & Loyalty White: Peace and Sincerity From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 13:56:36 2005 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:56:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's MOM possession (was Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135531 Firstly some evidence regarding Horcruxes; 1. No-one had ever made more than one Horcrux before, and therefore is it fair to assume that Voldemort would not believe that anyone could guess he had more than one (R.A.B. certainly thinks it's just the one) 2. Bearing in mind all the evidence that links Harry to Voldemort, the obvious deduction is that Harry IS a Horcrux. I am sure that Voldemort would think that DD would make that guess too. So from Voldemort's point of view, is it fair to say that he would think that DD would believe that he only had one Horcrux, and this was Harry. Now think back to the MOM scene at the end of OOTP. Voldemort possesses Harry and comments, 'if death is nothing Dumbledore, kill the boy'. He is offering Dumbledore the chance to kill Voldemort and his Horcrux with one Avada Kedavra (although Voldemort would actually have had several other Horcruxes to fall back on!) To me, this suggests that not only is Harry a Horcrux, but since Voldemort is aware of this, probably an intentional Horcrux! Brothergib From PaigeMeeker at sc.rr.com Fri Jul 29 11:49:16 2005 From: PaigeMeeker at sc.rr.com (Paige Meeker) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:49:16 -0000 Subject: In GOF, Ron gets second hand dress robes...but ginny got??? In-Reply-To: <20050729055926.77849.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135532 > Samantha wrote: > > Hi Potterphiles! > In GOF, we learn poor Ron has to have tatty second hand dress robes, > which of course he is mortified to wear. BUT when Ginny goes to the > Yule Ball with Neville, what is she wearing? Because, she wouldn't > have gotten dress robes(even second hand ones) because she wasn't of > age to go to the ball. Also, when she is seen at the ball, no one says > anything about her robes. Is this a case of the only girl getting > pampered and her poor brother getting the shaft? Hi, I've been reading and enjoying all the comments and y'all have made me feel better about the Snape/DD ending - I was crushed before! Now, I'm intrigued and excited to read the next book. Samantha and Potterphiles question Ginny's dress robes here - I know as a girl my friends and I would sometimes borrow each other's clothes. Ginny seems well connected and very outgoing - she could have borrowed them. The Weasley's don't have a lot of money for frivolous things and except for this reference, I believe that Ginny has also always gotten things second hand - her books in COS, for example. However, she will have to obtain somethings new that her brothers do not - with 5 others before Ron, I'm sure there are a lot of hand-me-downs! Paige From chp2 at ne.rr.com Fri Jul 29 12:08:17 2005 From: chp2 at ne.rr.com (nocobuzz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:08:17 -0000 Subject: R. A. B. and horcrux Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135533 Although I have my rather long opinion of Snape and whether he is good or bad, I have been dwelling on the initials and the missing horcrux. I still believe that the initials are Regulus Black. In OOTP, in chapter 6 "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, (pg. 116, US ed.) as they are all cleaning they found "...also a heavy locket that none of them could open...". I think this is the horcrux and Kreacher, who was wandering in and out attempting to smuggle things out, probably took it before it could be thrown away. If Harry asks him about it he will have to tell the truth. nocobuzz From rt11guru at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:04:23 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (rt11guru) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:04:23 -0000 Subject: (As yet) undiscovered powers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135534 Having not read the first 130K or so posts, I don't know if this subject has been beaten into the ground or not so feel free to ignore this if you wish. I don't remember any mention of any Hogwarts student exhibiting any animagus ability. James and friends were accomplished animagi while they were still at Hogwarts, so witches/wizards at that age would have that ability, yet we haven't heard of any yet. There are a lot of things for the author to bring into play, and that may be something she editted out. Then again, it might be interesting if one of the characters realized that s/he had the ability and used it to her/his advantage in Book 7. If you care to speculate on who/what might turn up, feel free to start your own game of "What's my Lion?" On another note, is there anyone but me who would like to see Neville's Gram show up during the last big battle and throw a monster nex on some DE's sorry butt? Guru From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:16:57 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:16:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135535 > Schumar/Marianne S: > > > I believe the point of seeing the Pensieve memories in the third > > person is that we get to see what ACTUALLY happened, not a biased > > interpretation of the rememberer. zgirnius: And possibly we even see things the person himself does not remember. For example, in the Pensieve scene with Snape and the Marauders, Snape sits down off somewhere by himself to go over the DADA OWL he has just taken. It seems highly unlikely he would have noticed all the antics and dialogue of the Marauders (which Harry sees in that memory) while concentrating on such a task. > Gatta: > But what about when Harry actually reads Snape's mind during the > Occulmency lesson? Does Snape *normally* see himself "outside over > there"? I think psychologists have a word for this sort of thing, but > I can't remember what it is. zgirnius: I would not want to try to make a psychiatric diagnosis on Snape based on the fact that when Harry succeeds in Legilimensing him via the Chield charm, Harry sees the memories in the third person. This is the only case in the books where we get to see the effects of someone Legilimensing someone else. It could just be the way that the Legilimency magic/ability works...you get to see the other person's thoughts/memories, but since you are not they, they are in the thrid person for you. (Of course, this could also be wrong...my point is that since we only have one case it is not much to base a theory on). We *do* see Harry have first person experiences of others through magical means(the snake attacking Arthur Weasley), but I think everyone (incluiding DD, who is the expert, I suppose) seems to feel that the LV/Harry link is a pretty unique phenomenon. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:19:53 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:19:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in HBP. Was: Re: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135536 > Phoenixgod2000: > > > > > I've been thinking about this while I reread select parts of HBP > and I > > have to say that this is the one part of the book where I think DD > > lets me down. I find it absolutely amazing (and infuriating) that > DD > > who has always insisted on Harry giving Snape respect when he knows > > that Snape is the person who set in motion the events that left > Harry > > an orphan. It seems to that is a slap in the face towards Harry and > > his loss. And when Harry comes to him in righteous anger he > completely > > dismisses Harry's feelings. Lupinlore: > Yes, that does open a can of worms, doesn't it? JKR just seems to > have a very hard time finding stable ground for Dumbledore when it > comes to immense pain that has been afflicted on Harry (partly > through his own decisions). He seems cold and lacking in compassion > at the end of OOTP, outraged at the Dursleys at the beginning of HBP, > and then dismissive at the end of HBP. Meanwhile, on other boards, > the whole "DD softening Harry up at the Dursleys" is gaining ground > again. Round and round we go. > > Obviously there is more to go (the hesitant moment that DD has when > he seems about to tell Harry something). And JKR has said we will > learn some more about DD (although how much is open to doubt). What > will be revealed I don't dare guess. But once again, Dumbledore > seems like someone has cast a Plotus Devicium spell on him. Alla: Erm... sorry, but softening Harry up for what? Just as youself, I was quite mad at Dumbledore at the end of OOP, or more like I was annoyed with JKR for failing to convey ( to me only of course) the depth of Dumbledore's remorse for his treatment of Harry in his final speech. I think she conveyed it quite clearly in HBP, personally AND Dumbledore was back to his normal self, IMO. I was thrilled at how Dumbledore dealt with Dursleys, I was also incredibly happy that he did not say a word of "Harry needing to be away from WW crap" as reason for leaving him with Dursleys. When I read abou " chill, emanating from DD" when he talked to them, I had no doubt that he was ... well, incredibly angry. I was also delighted that he called how they treated Harry "neglect and cruelty" and did not ... try to justify anything. Right, I also felt that she dealt very effectively with Puppetmaster! Dumbledore, because not once during their lessons had I doubted that Dumbledore was concerned with Harry's survival just as much or even more than disposing WW of Voldemort. Oh, going back to the initial issue. YES, Albus could have been less dismissive of Harry's feelings towards Snape, because as I said earlier I feel that Snape could never, ever repay Harry what he owes him. BUT I look at it this way. If Albus was wrong to trust Snape, he paid for it with his life . When I think about his last minutes, betrayed by the person he trusted so much, I want to cry for him. If Albus was right ( I am only talking about whether Snape on Voldemort's side or not) to trust Snape, then him telling Harry that Snape made a mistake goes in character with Albus giving anybody second chances, etc. YES, Harry has every right to be angry at Snape and in light of what we discovered I can only share Nora's earlier sentiment about JKR not going mutiple fanfictions route and making Harry grovel at Snape's feet and do multiple apologies. :-) Snape has SO much to beg Harry's forgiveness for, IMO. SO, having said all that, I just cannot bring myself to be angry at Dumbledore. He was so wonderful with Harry in this book overall, IMO. JMO, Alla. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 29 14:28:57 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:28:57 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135537 Dan: > Also, why does Albus tone change (so much so that it startles Harry) > when Snape arrives? Has Dumbledore seen the betrayal, just then? Do > we really believe Dumbledore has agreed that he himself needs to > die? > > Is he so limited that that choice would ever be the only one > possible? > > What is gained by Dumbledore being dead, in the big picture? SSSusan: Hmmm. Am I the only one who believes that DD was already just about dead by the time Snape arrived on the tower? See, I don't see it as "What is to be GAINED by DD's death?" so much as, "DD is dying, so what needs to be done?" The way I read things, DD was nearing death by the time he & Harry returned to Hogmeade. *Perhaps* at that point it was still possible to have prevented death, if Harry could have gotten Snape to DD in Hogsmeade, as was DD's request to Harry. However, once the Dark Mark was seen in the sky over Hogwarts, I believe that DD no longer felt he could remain in Hogsmeade. Students & staff may have been in very grave danger, and so DD made himself go. Further, I believe that getting on that broomstick and flying up to the castle with Harry took most of the remaining strength and life out of DD. The longer he stood on the tower, the further he sank down the wall, the weaker he became. I believe, by the time Snape arrived, DD knew he was a goner. **GIVEN THAT,** what's so bad about pleading with Snape to kill him? That pleading tone would be sure to startle Snape, too -- it would be effective in alerting Snape that he'd better pay CLOSE attention (i.e., use legillimency). Snape's killing DD would only be accelerating what was going to happen momentarily anyway. But the *advantage* of having Snape do it was that it might save Draco from murder, and it would prevent Snape from being killed for not keeping to the Unbreakable Vow. DD was not afraid of death. He knew he was dying. Snape couldn't stand having to do it, but I think the pleading voice, the likely bit of mutual legillimency between Snape & DD, and even perhaps a previous agreement between them, similar to the one where Harry agreed to do whatever was necessary, whatever DD asked, meant that he understood he HAD to comply. It's a time of war and the plan must go forward. If the leader is on his way out, the soldier must abide by the final request. Or so that's how I see it. YMMV. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From bex753 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 12:52:52 2005 From: bex753 at yahoo.co.uk (Bex) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:52:52 +0100 Subject: pudgy boys need love too References: Message-ID: <04a301c5943c$6e9f9d30$6501a8c0@quietpc> No: HPFGUIDX 135538 Samantha said Since > JKR has already shot down Luna and Neville getting together, do you > think Neville will ever find true love/hot kisses? Will his mom and > dad ever get better? (I truly hope so) Neville has been through a lot, > and I feel like he could use a little happiness. I think even though JRR shot down Neville/Luna ,if they don't end up as cannon fodder in the last book there is still a chance of them getting together. They have a lot in common and Neville has had time to get used to Luna's weird ways. Bex From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:32:47 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:32:47 -0000 Subject: How do the horcruxes work and why does the prophecy contradict it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135539 The main question I have about horcruxes is, when Voldemort AK'd himself via Harry, did the piece of soul in him get destroyed or was it living a "spectral existence"? Or was the "spectral existence" some other part of his soul from another horcrux? Since DD said that his body still has one part of the soul and JKR said that DD's has pretty accurate intution about the location of the horcruxes, it sounds like the part in his original body is what is still occupying his new body. This is unfortunate in my mind because the most sensible explanation of the horcrux, to me, is that it is like a surrogate body which houses a piece of the soul in the same way that the body does. When the body containing a whole soul dies, the soul goes to the afterlife. When a horcrux is destroyed, that piece goes to the same place. But apparently the piece of soul that is still in the body gets special treatment if there are horcruxes out there. Not beyond explanation, but not quite as neat and clean as describing horcruxes as surrogate bodies. (Although it saves the trouble of explaining how a piece of soul in a horcrux can manage to "get out" and possess/regenerate a body as Voldy did, so maybe it's for the best.) - davenclaw From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:40:05 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:40:05 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135540 a_svirn wrote: > I rather think that "sniveller" or "cry-baby" or something in this > vein is as obviously generic as "so-and-so stinks". I also think that > it is quite possible that Sirius and Co reduced Snape to helpless > tears once or twice in their first year. After all we saw him enjoying > a similar pastime with Kreacher. Not that it makes Kreacher in any way > a coward, incidentally. zgirnius: I agree with you that 1) "cry-baby" and such are generic insults, and 2) Snape is *not* a coward. (He may do things which are not the bravest possible choice in a given instance, but overall we have definitely seen enough risky actions to suppose he is not completely lacking courage.) However, the Marauders had, in theory, many other things they could have chosen to use to insult Snape. The greasy hair, the impoverished background, the half-blood status, and so on. It seems clear to me that they stuck with Snivellus as the insult of choice because that was the one which seemed to *really* get under Snape's skin. This is what I meant well up-thread when I said courage seems to be an "issue" for Snape. I did not mean he lacks it. I meant he values it, but is prone to doubt that he lives up to his own expextations in this area. I feel this is one reason for the pride he sometimes displays regarding his double-agent role, it's clearly a dangerous job, it proves he's brave to be doing it. And I think it is why Harry's calling him a coward at the end of HBP gets to him. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:55:49 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:55:49 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135541 Tonks wrote: > Here is my theory as to why DD does some things that are out of > character for him. The thing that gets to me the most is the way he > keeps saying how smart he is, and this is not the humble man that I > know DD to be. **Marcela now: While I can see your point -yes there are times in which Dumbledore is very humble-, there are also times in which he was shown as someone whom is very smart "and" knows about it. I am not going to give you quotes, but if you recall the books fairly well, you'll remember that: - in PS/SS Dumbledore praised himself in front of Harry, in his 'end- of-year' cozy chat with him. He said something like "if I may say so, putting the Stone in the Mirror was one of my most brilliant ideas, etc." - in OoTP, in the MoM scene, the statues clapped after he duelled Voldemort... Hadn't he charmed them to do his bidding? In many other scenes with Fudge, Skeeter, Karkaroff, Malfoy, etc. Dumbledore sounded very condescending of their beliefs --deeply understandable IMO, but nonetheless, he wasn't showing 'humility' per se. I don't think I found DD's behaviour so OOC to think that he was channeling a part of Voldemort after he'd broken the ring horcrux... Marcela From dlatchman at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 15:09:19 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:09:19 -0400 Subject: R.A.B Identity In-Reply-To: References: <403e946f050729015565682d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135542 I am not too sure where exactly to place this one but since it touches on the topic I guess here is as good as any. It seems that we have all jumped to the conclusion that RAB stole the original Horcrux by removng it from its resting place. If so then why was the container filled with potion? Won't it be empty? Of course you are going to say that a refilling charm was placed on the container but if the purpose was protect the Horcrux then once someone gets the Horcrux then there will be no need to have the container refilled. It meant that once stolen Harry and Dumbledore would have found an empty container.Either that or RAB went to a considerable amount of trouble to put these spells back in place just to hide the fact that the Horcrux was stolen. There is a simpler explanation that doen't involve poisioning Kretcher. The Locket was switched at the time it was placed there. Maybe RAB was given the task of placing the Horcrux there or he was at least present when it was being placed. That way he can place the fake locket and all the protective spells put into place without any danger to him. David L. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 15:36:49 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:36:49 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135543 > zgirnius: > I agree with you that 1) "cry-baby" and such are generic insults, and > 2) Snape is *not* a coward. (He may do things which are not the bravest > possible choice in a given instance, but overall we have definitely > seen enough risky actions to suppose he is not completely lacking > courage.) > > However, the Marauders had, in theory, many other things they could > have chosen to use to insult Snape. The greasy hair, the impoverished > background, the half-blood status, and so on. It seems clear to me that > they stuck with Snivellus as the insult of choice because that was the > one which seemed to *really* get under Snape's skin. This is what I > meant well up-thread when I said courage seems to be an "issue" for > Snape. I did not mean he lacks it. I meant he values it, but is prone > to doubt that he lives up to his own expextations in this area. > > I feel this is one reason for the pride he sometimes displays regarding > his double-agent role, it's clearly a dangerous job, it proves he's > brave to be doing it. And I think it is why Harry's calling him a > coward at the end of HBP gets to him. Oh, I quite agree that courage may be an issue with Snape. However, I still think that it is unadvisable to treat Sirius's insults as any kind of evidence. Insults are always misleading. For instance, he also called Snape "Lucius's lapdog" or some such thing. Now, I am sure Lucius/Severus shippers (if they exist) had a field day with that one, but would you take it seriously? Personally I wouldn't. Moreover, while we are on the subject of insults: during their kitchen altercation Snape implied rather strongly that Sirius was a coward. And it sure "got under Sirius's skin". So much so in fact, that Harry believes (and so do I) that it was the crucial factor contributed to Sirius's recklessness during the battle and consequently his death. Does it mean that Snape was justified in his malicious hints? Hardly. Sirius had many faults but cowardice was not one of them. a_svirn From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Fri Jul 29 15:39:26 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:39:26 -0800 Subject: International Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135544 We were discussing the different translations of names in other languages. I found a link I had saved from a while back that lists a lot of the translated names for people, objects, spells, etc. Unfortunately, it doesn't talk about Regulus Black, Mr. Borgin, Mr. Burke. And, since most of the translated versions of HBP are not yet available, it doesn't include names or other information from that book. Here is the link: http://www.eulenfeder.de/int/gbint.html Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 15:43:17 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:43:17 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape - possible clue! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135545 I just finished re-reading HBP, and something caught my about the scene on the Astronomy Tower. When Malfoy tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to his mother to help him, Dumbledore doesn't say "I know, I told him to" or "Yes, but he was bound to me already" or anything like that. He says "Of course he would tell you that." In other words, Dumbledore didn't know about the vow, and thought Snape was lying to Malfoy. I think this is a big check mark in the "Snape is Ever-So- Evil" column. THIS is the reason why Ch 2 is important. (Someone had recently questioned the need for the chapter.) We KNOW that Snape made this vow, not just that he said he did. JKR made the scene beautifully ambiguous, and I honestly prefer the many theories in which Snape's actions are far more complex than anyone yet realizes. But I really have to wonder, if Snape was on DD's side all along, and killed him at his own request but against his own desires, why did he make the Vow and not tell Dumbledore? And why did he knock out Flitwick? There is ample evidence that Snape is truly evil, though I would find this outcome probably less interesting than the many Hero!Snape stories concocted on the 'net. Although, it would be more satisfying for a huge jerk like Snape to end up being completely evil and destroyed by Harry. (Or maybe Wormtail.) - davenclaw From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 15:57:30 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:57:30 -0000 Subject: Of Caves and Tarot Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135546 > Merrylinks responds: > I'm afraid I disagree, Jen. Thanks to legilimency, DD knows what > Harry is primarily concerned about, and that is the safety of the > school. The problem is, Dumbledore figures he has the safety issue > covered. Just like an impatient parent, he dismisses Harry's > objections in order to get on with the task at hand. What he > doesn't realize is that Harry is bringing him *new* information > that requires *new* defense tactics. Jen: I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I agree Dumbledore dismissed Harry's concerns much like a parent who feels he understands the situation better than the child. And I think he did that because he already knew Draco was using the Room of Requirement. So, like you said, he didn't realize Harry's revelations about Draco's 'whooping' actually contained vital information that DD *doesn't* know, about the Vanishing Cabinent. Where we may differ (?) is I can't fault Dumbledore for making that decision. He does feel he understands the situation better than Harry does, and I suspect it's because he trusts Severus to monitor Draco more closely than Harry can. So I see the communication breakdown coming between Dumbledore and Snape rather than Dumbledore and Harry. Either Snape had no clue about the Vanishing Cabinent (which he didn't seem to when he and Draco fought after Slug's party) or Snape is deliberately witholding that information from Dumbledore. So Dumbledore's trust of Snape, combined with the urgency he feels about teaching Harry everything he knows about the Horcruxes, is probably what led to the brush-off. Merrylinks: > I think that in this book Harry has matured beyond needing > vengeance against Malfoy. His thoughts as he tries to open the > Room of Requirement indicate that--"I need to see what Malfoy's > doing in here..."; I need to see the place where Malfoy keeps > coming secretly..."; I need you to become the place you become for > Draco Malfoy..." His objective is to find out what Draco is trying > to fix, not trying to fix blame on Draco. The broken item, > whatever it is, is dangerous. And once Harry knows that Draco has > fixed it, the danger is what he focuses on. Jen: Actually, I was thinking more of Snape when I mentioned vengeance (but forgot to clarify that little detail). Harry just found out Snape was the eavesdropper whose actions helped seal the fate of the Potters. He was understandably enraged at that moment, so much so that even though he overheard Snape and Draco arguing and heard Draco is using Occlumency to keep things from Snape, Harry still implicates Snape when talking to Dumbledore. Purely opinion here, but I wonder if Harry including Snape is what turned DD off the conversation? Dumbledore knows how much Harry hates him, and I think Harry was right in thinking he needed to control his emotions better in that scene. Given his emotional intensity, Dumbledore probably heard another round of 'getting Snape' rather than actually focusing on what Harry was saying about Draco and his whooping. Merrylinks, from post #135527: > Let me try again. When Dumbledore silently asks Snape to kill him, > his motivation is that by allowing himself to die, he will be > protecting the students. I don't believe that DD is casting a Lily- > Potter-like protective charm. Rather, he realizes that the > immediate objective of Draco and the Death Eaters' invasion of the > school is to kill him. Once they do, it will be "Mission > Accomplished" and they will all leave. Dumbledore has made a > serious error when he doesn't listen to Harry's information about > the dangerous thing Draco has fixed. On the Tower, by asking Snape > to kill him, DD is able to make a sort of atonement for his error, > thus protecting the students from further harm at the wands of the > Death Eaters. Jen: Ooooh, OK, I completely understand now and have to say that's a really sweet and sad thought *sniff*. I hadn't thought about the scene in those terms, but of course Dumbledore would want the DE's out of there as quickly as possible! Especially since he thinks students are dying (Draco's words). Well, and *he* is dying come to that. With one final sweep he can accomplish so many things: Get the DE's out of Hogwarts, save Draco, cement Snape's position as a Voldemort loyalist. I'm not sure he's purposefully atoning for his error over the Vanishing Cabinent (not sure you were saying that anyway), but that's eseentially what he does whether concious or not. Jen, enjoying this debate very much and thinking this is even more evidence for Snape acting on DD's wishes when he killed him. From lfreeman at mbc.edu Fri Jul 29 15:58:43 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:58:43 -0400 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135547 Unfortunately, I don't see any redemption for Snape at this point. I don't think DD would want *any* of his followers to commit murder, for any reason, especially not with the AK curse. I think at heart Snape is a true Slytherin: out to protect his own skin as much as possible. I think he did initially join DD as Voldy's spy, then when Voldy fell he decided to join up with DD for real, then when Voldy was reborn, he played both sides as best he could for as long as he could, (not a bad way to go, with both sides already thinking you are a double agent) but at some point, decided he had to go with Voldy (maybe when he saw how all the plans DD suggested, like recruiting the giants and the centaurs, were failing.) Maybe he didn't make the final call until forced to do the Unbreakable vow. DD may not have been wrong to trust him 15 years ago, but I think he did misjudge him over the last 2. When Draco told DD that Snape "promised my mother" and DD replied "Of course that's what he would have told you" I think it slipped that DD was in error.... that wasn't just the story Snape told Malfoy; it was the truth and DD didn't know it. I don't think DD was pleading for his life, but I think he was pleading for Snape not to betray his trust and not to make the irreversable choice for the Dark Lord. I think it's becoming clear that there are several traits Rowling considers essential for a genuine hero: they can't be seeking glory for themselves, they can't be so fearful of death that they are afraid to die for a good cause and they have to be able to forgive and show mercy. DD can certainly do all three and we've seen Harry develop all those traits over the years. Voldemort, of course, does none of them, and I think Snape has shown he can't either. When we first met him, he boasted that he could "brew fame, bottle glory and stopper death." He couldn't put aside his hatred for Sirus and James and Lupin, from either their schooldays or cheating them out of his Order of Merlin in PoA. DD has already told us he misjudged how deep that resentment ran. He had to chose between killing DD or dying himself at the end and he chose to kill; he had already told us that the one to kill DD would be honored by the Dark Lord above all others. It's hard to see any nobility there. Snape's as about as Voldyesque as he can get by the end. Basically, it comes down to a simple formula: Snape is telling both Voldy and DD he's working for them as a double agent. He has to be lying to one. He has to have deceived one of these brilliant minds for a long time. Who is the one who has an uncanny ability to tell when he's being lied to? Voldemort. DD has compassion and is certainly a good judge of character, but he can be deceived. He thought Sirius was a traitor and peter pettigrew a hero for 12 years. He never knew about the Marauders. He thought Barty Crouch was Mad-Eye Moody for a whole school year. Harry could spare Wormtail's life, and could even start to feel compassion for Malfoy by the end. I think his next big test may be, can he show mercy to Snape if called upon to do so? I also think the "wild cards" in the game are now Malfoy and Peter Pettigrew, not Snape. Both of them now owe their lives to the good guys, Malfoy to DD and Peter to Harry. I'm guessing that one or the other or both will do some minor defiance of Voldy that will tip the scales in the Order of the Phoenix's direction (and get flattened for it!) in a way reminiscent of Neville's winning the House Cup for Gryffindor during the first year. __ Louise M. Freeman, PhD Psychology Dept Mary Baldwin College Staunton, VA 24401 540-887-7326 FAX 540-887-7121 From oiboyz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:00:48 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:00:48 -0000 Subject: Celebrity biographies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135548 I'd just like to make a little post to laugh at this scene from HBP: ************************************** "Harry Potter, I am simply delighted!" said Worple, peering short- sightedly up into Harry's face. "I was saying to Professor Slughorn only the other day, 'Where is the biography of Harry Potter for which we have all been waiting?'" "Er," said Harry, "were you?" "Just as modest as Horace described!" said Worple. "But seriously- -" his manner changed; it became suddenly businesslike, "I would be delighted to write it myself-- people are craving to know more about you, dear boy, craving! If you were prepared to grant me a few interviews, say in four- or five-hour sessions, why, we could have the book finished within months. And all with very little effort on your part, I assure you.... My dear boy, the gold you could make, you have no idea--" "I'm definitely not interested, " said Harry firmly, "and I've just seen a friend of mine, sorry." He pulled Luna after him into the crowd.... *************************************** Was there ever a passage in Harry Potter that more obviously alluded to JKR's own celebrity? I'll bet she's had this exact offer several times. I've seen a few biographies of her; I had no idea if any of them were authorised, but after reading the above, I'd guess not. -oiboyz From lfreeman at mbc.edu Fri Jul 29 16:06:57 2005 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:06:57 -0400 Subject: Ginny and dress robes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135549 Ron, when he first saw the lacy robes in his trunk, thought his mom had mistakenly packed him "Ginny's new dress," which suggests his mom was buying Ginny new "dressy" clothes of some sort. They may not have been formal witch dress robes, but Ginny is a third year, old enough for a Hogsmeade "date" to Madam Puddinfoots. I could certainly see a young witch "dressing up" for such an occasion, even if similarly aged boys did not. I also agree that a third year who got an unexpected invitation to such an important event would not have any trouble borrowing suitable clothes from a friend. Maybe even Luna Lovegood? From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 16:07:47 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:07:47 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135550 Regarding DD's frequent boastful statements in HBP... let's not forget that he asks Harry's opinion a few times, says something about "considerable resources" or something to that effect when describing his conviction that Harry can get the memory from Slughorn, and in the cave he says that Harry's blood is worth more than his, and of course he relied on Harry to convince Slughorn to teach. So while he is quite open about his own genius, he's not above giving rather high compliments to Harry, which to me suggests that he's simply honest and brilliant. As someone I knew in college once wrote in our school newspaper regarding our rival college, "Let's be both honest and arrogant." That, to me, best describes DD's behavior. I wouldn't much appreciate false humility when he knows he's a genius. - davenclaw From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 16:12:19 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:12:19 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape - possible clue! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > I just finished re-reading HBP, and something caught my about the > scene on the Astronomy Tower. > > When Malfoy tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to > his mother to help him, Dumbledore doesn't say "I know, I told him > to" or "Yes, but he was bound to me already" or anything like that. > He says "Of course he would tell you that." In other words, > Dumbledore didn't know about the vow, and thought Snape was lying to > Malfoy. I think this is a big check mark in the "Snape is Ever-So- > Evil" column. > > THIS is the reason why Ch 2 is important. (Someone had recently > questioned the need for the chapter.) We KNOW that Snape made this > vow, not just that he said he did. > > JKR made the scene beautifully ambiguous, and I honestly prefer the > many theories in which Snape's actions are far more complex than > anyone yet realizes. But I really have to wonder, if Snape was on > DD's side all along, and killed him at his own request but against > his own desires, why did he make the Vow and not tell Dumbledore? > And why did he knock out Flitwick? There is ample evidence that > Snape is truly evil, though I would find this outcome probably less > interesting than the many Hero!Snape stories concocted on the 'net. > Although, it would be more satisfying for a huge jerk like Snape to > end up being completely evil and destroyed by Harry. (Or maybe > Wormtail.) > > - davenclaw zgirnius: Well, I'm going to use up my third post today to try and restore your ability to consider the more complex theories you prefer . The events which occur in Chapter 2 regard an *important secret* of the Bad Guys. The only three participants of that conversation all agree that Draco's task is a big secret they are not supposed to be talking to *anyone* about. I doubt that Bella and/or Cissy go around telling all and sundry about the Vow and the Task. Bella would not want to jeopardize the task, since it is LV's will. Narcissa would not want to jeopardize the task, as it would make Draco's job harder. And anyway, how likely is either of them to talk with DD? Snape does talk about it to Draco (since he needs to gain Draco's trust to learn more about Draco's specific plans). If Snape is a "good guy", he would, as you say, also have told DD about this at some point. (Possibly the reason for the famous argument overheard by Hagrid?) But that (hypothetical) conversation would of course need to be a secret from the Bad Guys. Snape *should not* be discussing matters regarding LV's Big Secret Plot with DD if he is a loyal DE. At the moment DD tells Draco "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco", what is the situation? DD, Draco, and a frozen, invisible Harry are alone. Draco, while clearly wavering, has not made a final decision yet, and there are other DEs at Hogwarts who might burst in at any moment (as in fact they do soon after). DD knows he is badly weakened by the potion/cursed arm/pick your favorite reason. So he must consider the possibility that in the immediate future he will be killed by Draco, and Draco will then leave with the DEs to report back to LV. Where he will certainly report back on that final conversation. If Draco tells LV that Snape had discussed the UV with DD, Snape's cover would be jeopardized. If Draco can sneeringly confirm to LV that DD bought Snape's act hook, line, and sinker, it strengthens Snape's position. I personally do not insist on a "Snape is *really* a Good Guy" theory. I do think, though, that JKR has been extremely careful not to leave any definitive evidence of either Good!Snape or ESE!Snape lying around anywhere in Book 6. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 16:23:30 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny and dress robes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729162330.38966.qmail@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135552 --- "Freeman, Louise Margaret" wrote: > Ron, when he first saw the lacy robes in his trunk, > thought his mom had mistakenly packed him > "Ginny's new dress," which suggests his mom was > buying Ginny new "dressy" clothes of some > sort. I disagree. He thought the robes were a dress. A dress could only belong to Ginny. Therefore this is Ginny's dress. New, I suppose, because he'd never seen it before or because an old one wouldn't fit her anymore (assuming clothes are only bought at the beginning of the school year). Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 16:23:42 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:23:42 -0000 Subject: E-mail from Scholastic - US vs UK version Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135553 Auror Tonks on special assignment reporting in: I wrote to a customer care person at Scholastic regarding the extra line ("He can't kill you if you are already dead.") in the US version of the books. She did not answer my question fully, which is par for the course with customer care people, but what she did say was interesting and I am sharing it here. I am sure that this is one of those canned responses that customer care people love to give, but still it tells us something, even though it does not answer the full question. I will go back to wring a bit more information our of her... now let me think, what is the best spell to put on a Muggle for this... hummm... Tonks_op --------- Thank you very much for your recent email. We're delighted that you are such an enthusiastic fan of the "Harry Potter" series. We would like to point out that no changes are now, or have ever been made to the text without the complete participation and approval of the author, J.K. Rowling. The philosophy of the translations was always to give the American reader the same experience--or as close to the same experience as possible--as the British reader. In other words, the books should feel very British. There would never be wholesale "Americanization." Changes would be as few as possible. However, we felt that the readers should be perplexed only when the author wants them to be perplexed, they should notice the slang only when the author wants them to notice the slang, and at no other times. When the Scholastic editors were brought up short by a word or phrase, they would query it to the author and would either come up with an alternative British phrase (not necessarily an "American" phrase), find an acceptable translation understandable to American readers, or we would leave it as is. It was our guess--now borne out by experience--that American readers would become progressively more familiar with the magical world that Ms. Rowling had created, more familiar, and thus would be better oriented and less likely to be confused by individual language differences. Therefore, there have been progressively fewer "translations" to the point where the US and UK texts are virtually identical now. We truly appreciate your interest in J.K. Rowling and her wonderful "Harry Potter" series. And as always . . . Thank you for choosing Scholastic! Sincerely, ---------------- From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:25:29 2005 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:25:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Aslan, Gandalf, and Obi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135554 Magica wrote: > I think there are many similarities between the death of DD and > Aslan, the great lion of Narnia, who is killed by the evil witch on > the stone table in "The lion, The witch and The wardrobe". The lion > also pleads with the witch to kill him, so that he can return > stronger and more magical than ever. Same thing with the death of > Gandalf in LOTR. I couldn't agree more. In fact, as a member of Narnia and LOTR boards, HP comes up a lot there as well. Mostly with folks saying that JKR stole storyline but there I do not agree. I think it is just sour grapes on the popularity of HP. Personally, I think that JKR does follow a model for these stories as you all know. So, looking at the model of the top 3 SciFi/Fantasy series w/o HP: Mentor:Hero:Mentor Chooses to Die IN FRONT OF HERO to make hero stronger: Mentor comes 'back from dead' in some way:: Chronicals of Narnia:LWW Aslan:Susan/Lucy:Killed at stone table in front of S/L:Returned from dead to win the fight against the white witch . Some would say more powerful and since there are all those Christian paralels I would say probably. LOTR Gandalf:Fellowship(Frodo): Killed fighting the meany balrog in front of fellowship (or at least sucked away right?): Returned to win the fight against sauron but in White form, much more stronger magic. Star Wars ObiWon Kenobi:Luke: Killed by Darth Vadar in front of Luke (some say he waited for Luke) : Returned as a voice of the force to help Luke at all times so he could defeat the Dark Side. --this one is my husbands, but it sure fits too! So now we have three ways to approach HP Dumbledore:Harry Potter: Killed by Snape with HP in a frozen state as to witness the event: Returns or not in some way What are the choices: 1) Rises from dead : I don't believe JKR would do this, too associated with dark magic now. 2) Nothing, DD is gone, a distant memory and anyway, he didn't choose to die he JUST was ak'd 3) DD more powerfully speaks to Harry in certain ways: Through portrait, through letters, through his need to avenge his death along with his parents...I don't know. I think the only conclusion is that DD wanted to die. I can't look at it any other way and have it 'work' for our hero. This is another reason why I don't think Harry has to die to be the hero. Yes in classical hero stories the hero dies, but JKR does not seem to be following that model. Plus I think she always thinks of her child audience and, while she never underestimates what they can handle, also understands depression and what sacrifice means to the young. Anyway, thats a different subject isn't it? Magica also said > How do these magical portraits work, has anyone discussed this > before? Must they be painted by a special artist while the person is > still alive, maybe leaving some of his or hers sole in the portrait > through a mini-horcrux? Me again: I don't think it is a mini-horcrux persay because Horcruxes don't seem to be 'okay' magic. They are not even spoken of. But there is something to the portraits. I don't think they are exactly 'painted' either, Dumbledores appeared in his office rather quickly. But they do have thoughts, feelings etc. and CAN deliver messages unlike a photograph. Also, not everyone has a painting. I know this was talked about years ago on this board but I don't know what JKR has said on it. Anyone?? Trish. (A lurker who has read every post **whew**) From prongs at marauders-map.net Fri Jul 29 16:32:19 2005 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:32:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts protection spells References: <1d5.40cedb42.30191a08@aol.com> Message-ID: <008e01c5945b$1a9abb10$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 135556 Popping out from under a rock real quick... Geoff wondered if the spells cast by DD to protect Hogwarts would be invalid after his death.... Betty now: I don't think they'd be invalid. After all, Sirius's father did have "every protection known to wizardkind" on the Black house, and he's presumably dead or he would have been a part of book 5. Betty From vlngrrl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 16:31:51 2005 From: vlngrrl at yahoo.com (vlngrrl) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:31:51 -0000 Subject: Gold Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135557 Hello! This may seem like a really elementary question, but... "Bill...passed a full money bag across the table to Harry...'I got it out of your vault for you, Harry, because it's taking about five hours for the public to get to their gold at the moment...this way's easier." (HPB, p. 108 US edition). However, in one of the earlier books (forgive me, I don't have them in front of me) Sirius buys Harry a gift (Firebolt, I think) by debiting his Gringotts account. Why, if it's so difficult to withdraw gold from Gringotts in HBP, does Bill not suggest this way of payment for school supplies? That seems the easiest to me. - Sarah From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 29 17:13:54 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:13:54 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Freeman, Louise Margaret" wrote: > Re: Could Snape ever be a hero? colebiancardi Offline Send Email Louise wrote: > I think it's becoming clear that there are several traits Rowling considers essential for a genuine > hero: they can't be seeking glory for themselves, they can't be so fearful of death that they are > afraid to die for a good cause and they have to be able to forgive and show mercy. DD can > certainly do all three and we've seen Harry develop all those traits over the years. Voldemort, of > course, does none of them, and I think Snape has shown he can't either. When we first met > him, he boasted that he could "brew fame, bottle glory and stopper death." not really. He told them he could teach them how to do those things - and he is a teacher, isn't he? And DD has boasted a few times himself. My god, if Snape is truly a deep-undercover spy(which I believe), then HOW boring can it be for him to teach a bunch of "dunderheads"? No wonder he gets his kicks from scaring the crap out of the kids... > He couldn't put > aside his hatred for Sirus and James and Lupin, from either their schooldays or cheating them > out of his Order of Merlin in PoA. DD has already told us he misjudged how deep that > resentment ran. And neither could Sirius put away his hatred for Snape. Forgiveness & showing mercy are two traits Snape CANNOT show at this time and point. He does that, and his cover is blown. People complained, oh, why is he such a NASTY BASTARD to Harry and the others? What do you want him to do? Take Harry under his wing and coo to him? If that ever got back to Voldemort, and it would, Snape is useless as a spy. >>He had to chose between killing DD or dying himself at the end and >>he chose > to kill; he had already told us that the one to kill DD >>would be honored by the Dark Lord above > all others. It's hard to see any nobility there. Snape's as about as Voldyesque as he can get by > the end. > Unless that was part of DD's plan and I believe DD was a walking dead man ever since he got the ring horcrux and bunged up the destroying of it. Snape probably kept him alive with that "stop death" potion. there is the other theory that Snape is neither working for LV or DD, but waiting for both to die. Once that happens, he probably will make his move to become "Top Wizard" in the WW. as far as Snape being a hero, I don't think he ever will be one, but not for the reasons you outlined. I also don't think that many people here think he is a hero. I think he will be redeemed(if he is Good!Snape) and he will give his life up to do so. If he is Good! Snape, he has to be redeemed for his actions that seem *dodgy*. colebiancardi From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri Jul 29 17:24:17 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:24:17 -0000 Subject: The Ultimate Snape Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135559 > So in order to save himself, Snape goes to James and tries to warn > him, but James doesn't believe him. Maybe then Snape tricks LV by > suggest to LV that the *really* evil thing to do would be to allow > the parents to live so that they would suffer day in and day out > because of the lost of their child. And LV being the nasty EVIL > dude that he is, agrees. Gerry OK, still trying and trying and trying to keep up, but its hard with an almost four weeks old. Quite often my fingers itched but having only one hand to type (other holding little daughter) and knowing that probably my comments will be completely redundant I refrained from posting up til now. As I saw there was no reaction to this post and the little one is sleeping I grabbed my chance: LV is not evil in the sense that he likes to do evil deeds: he goes for gain. Having parents suffer because they suffer is not what makes him tick. There is no gain for him in it. In PS his mindset is given beautifully by Quirrel, who tells Harry that LV has made him understand that there is no good or evil, but only those with power and those who are powerless. I am, just as lots of others very curious why Lily did not have to die (and James did, apparently) but I'm sure the reason for it was one that was beneficial in one way or another for LV himself. What I find especially interesting about it, is that Lily is muggleborn and therefore the kind of witch the DE's despise... I really liked the rest of your post. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri Jul 29 17:29:41 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:29:41 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135560 Noel: > But does anyone else out there share Alexis' point of view? I'll > grant that he's not one of the Potter faithful--I wouldn't call his > review a rave, tho' he does say it's readable, and "more compelling" > that GOF or OOP. Gerry Well, it takes all kinds to read a book... I was very, very upset by Dumbledore's death. I think this scene was one of the best in all the books. It was compelling, realistic and horrible. I cried (especially over Snape doing the deed), though I can blame after pregnancy hormones for that (knowing full well, I would also have had tears in my eyes and that heavy feeling in my stomac otherwise) Gerry From slmuth at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 17:51:38 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:51:38 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape - possible clue! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135561 "davenclaw" wrote: > > I just finished re-reading HBP, and something caught my about the scene on the Astronomy Tower. > > When Malfoy tells Dumbledore that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to his mother to help him, Dumbledore doesn't say "I know, I told him to" or "Yes, but he was bound to me already" or anything like > that. He says "Of course he would tell you that." In other words, > > Dumbledore didn't know about the vow, and thought Snape was lying to Malfoy. I think this is a big check mark in the "Snape is Ever-So- Evil" column. > > > > zgirnius replied: [DD] must consider the possibility that in the > immediate future he will be killed by Draco, and Draco will then > leave with the DEs to report back to LV. Where he will certainly > report back on that final conversation. If Draco tells LV that Snape > had discussed the UV with DD, Snape's cover would be jeopardized. If > Draco can sneeringly confirm to LV that DD bought Snape's act hook, > line, and sinker, it strengthens Snape's position. Now me: I agree with Davenclaw that this is one of the strongest pieces of evidence pointing to ESE!Snape or at least to only-in-it-for-himself! Snape. So I will do my humble best to refute zgirnius' crafty logic: The "plan" discussed at Spinner's End that must be kept secret at all costs has nothing to do with the UV. It is of course for Draco to assassinate DD. DD does in fact find out about this plan, probably from Snape, and DD tells Draco that he knows about it. He even says that Snape was keeping watch over Draco "on my orders." So Draco will have every opportunity to tell LV that Snape told DD about the super-secret plan -- but it won't matter because Snape will be able to say that it was all part of his double-agent role. In terms of Snape's cover, why would it be any more problemmatic for LV to know that Snape had taken the UV than that had had told DD about the "plan"? If DD had replied to Draco by saying, "Yes, Snape took that UV on my orders" and then Draco reported it right back to LV, Snape would say what he always says: "I let DD *think* that he gave me the order, but I was working for you, Dark Lord." And the fact that Snape killed DD would be pretty persuasive evidence that he was telling the truth. So, whether DD has planned his own death or not, he has no more reason to lie to Draco about the UV than he has to lie about knowing the "plan". This implies that he did *not* know about the UV, and therefore did not arrange for Snape to kill him. Looking at it from Snape's perspective, he has reasons to hide the UV from both LV and DD, but IMO those reasons are much stronger in the case of DD. The reason to hide it from LV is that Snape has taken it on himself to do something that LV did not specifically order. That is, Draco and only Draco was supposed to kill DD. Snape goes beyond that by promising to do it himself if necessary. This might make LV angry since his "servants" weren't following orders; but the upshot of Snape taking the vow -- i.e. to KILL DUMBLEDORE -- could not be more pleasing to LV. (And Snape even speculates that LV will require him to do it if Draco fails -- so he's just doing what LV wants done anyway.) So if LV finds out about the UV -- big deal. On the other hand, if DD finds out about the vow (assuming that it wasn't part of a grand plan) Snape is in big doo-doo because he will have given himself away. So, in the game that Snape is playing, who is he more likely to have lied to about the UV? I leave it to you to decide for yourself! JMO, Janeway From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 17:57:38 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:57:38 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135562 > Tonks wrote: > > The thing that gets to me the most is the way > he keeps saying how smart he is, and this is not the humble man that I know DD to be. hg: I also found Dumbledore's comments to be out of character -- for a Dumbledore/Harry interaction. Marcela points out: > **Marcela now: ...there are times in which Dumbledore is very humble-, there are also times in which he was shown as someone whom is very smart "and" knows about it. > - in PS/SS Dumbledore praised himself in front of Harry, in his 'end- > of-year' cozy chat with him. He said something like "if I may say > so, putting the Stone in the Mirror was one of my most brilliant > ideas, etc." hg again: When Harry and Dumbledore are talking together, Dumbledore isn't necessarily humble, but at least modest: example from HBP is when he says "forgive me" when referring to his own cleverness. In the cave scene, he pretty much says that Harry's power won't register with the boat and that he's far more clever than Harry. I think we can safely say this doesn't sound like a Dumbledore/Harry interaction, even if we can't safely draw a conclusion from it. But I have a theory... hg. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 17:57:48 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:57:48 -0000 Subject: DD not like himself - Horcrux Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135563 > Tonks wrote: > > The thing that gets to me the most is the way > he keeps saying how smart he is, and this is not the humble man that I know DD to be. hg: I also found Dumbledore's comments to be out of character -- for a Dumbledore/Harry interaction. Marcela points out: > **Marcela now: ...there are times in which Dumbledore is very humble-, there are also times in which he was shown as someone whom is very smart "and" knows about it. > - in PS/SS Dumbledore praised himself in front of Harry, in his 'end- > of-year' cozy chat with him. He said something like "if I may say > so, putting the Stone in the Mirror was one of my most brilliant > ideas, etc." hg again: When Harry and Dumbledore are talking together, Dumbledore isn't necessarily humble, but at least modest: example from HBP is when he says "forgive me" when referring to his own cleverness. In the cave scene, he pretty much says that Harry's power won't register with the boat and that he's far more clever than Harry. I think we can safely say this doesn't sound like a Dumbledore/Harry interaction, even if we can't safely draw a conclusion from it. But I have a theory... hg. From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 16:45:09 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:45:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050729033752.117.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135564 Juli says: > You say Gandalf didn't actually die, but he did, In book 2 (The Two Towers), when he meets Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn, he explains what happened: he says he died, then he returned. And Gandalf wasn't a spirit, he was a Maiar, a lesser Valar, he had the inmortal life of the Eldar and Eru's Valar, even in The Silmarilion he was mentioned (as Olorin, the wise), but even if they are inmortal, they can die: Many elves died, also some Valar (Melkor), and Maiar (Saruman, Gandalf). > .................. > All this said I think DD will return. How? I haven't a clue, I think he may do so as a phoenix, there's been way too many mentions of the Phoenix and DD. > I don't want to get into a purely LOTR discussion, becuase I don't think the admin. will appreciate that. But, this is important in relation to Dumbledore: Gandalf did not die. A Maiar _is_ a spirit, and the entity of "Gandalf" the wizard was clothed in human flesh for the peoples of Middle-Earth so that they would trust him. Recall, the Valar, when they decided to help the people, wanted to send someone who was in Sauron's early days, his equal. They clothed Gandalf (Olorin) in human flesh so that he could gain the peoples' trust, rather than fighting the battle for them, and at the end setting himself up as the next Sauron. Neither the Maiar nor the Valar can die: Melkor did not die; he is bound beyond "the Walls of the World" into the "Timeless Void". This is in Silmarillion; this is why Earendil "keeps watch over the rampart of the skies", and it is told in the Dooms of Mandos that Melkor will indeed return. When Gandald fell into the "abyss" with the balrog, he never died: he left one human shell and took on another. But spirits do not die. Gandalf's words to Aragorn in Two Towers are not that "I died", but rather that "darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time", which are properties or dimensions of a physical order. This trait is different, and not related, to the Eldar elves, who are "immortal" only inasmuch as they will not die of old age - they can be killed by steel and sword. You are confusing the properties of the Eldar and the Valar (both lesser and greater). In being spirit, the Valar don't die at all - even Saruman, stabbed in the back in the Shire, departed only his physical form, or shell. And with Melkor, his immortality (as spirit) is explicit. Now, Dumbledore is _not_ primarily a spirit. As someone else mentioned, he is a wizard among wizards, not an anamolous entity in Middle-Earth. He does not possess that innately "transcendent" dimension Gandalf does. I think, too, that DD will play a part in the 7th book, but mostly as passive advisor, through his portrait, et all. Of course, I hope I am wrong, and hope his animagus form is phoenix, and that was what Harry saw leave the burning pyre. No harm in hope, I suppose. - AA From adrieneamadis at comcast.net Fri Jul 29 18:03:07 2005 From: adrieneamadis at comcast.net (adrieneamadis) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:03:07 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135565 I've been reading the transcripts of a lot of JK's interviews and she gives some really interesting clues or hints. One was about Petunia. In answer to a fans question JK replied that P WAS truly a muggle, but that guessing she was a squib was a good guess. She also said there's more to P than meets the eye, or something like that. I thought that squib comment to be very curious, so I checked some other comments JK made about P and found this. JK says when Dumbledore sent P the howler that said "Remember my last!" He used the term "last" because he had sent P letters(note the plural) previously. That means P knew DD prior to Harry arriving on her doorstep and had multiple correspondence with (or from) him. Now why would DD be sending letters to one of his students' muggle sister? Some sort of emergency maybe? Something along the lines of "You're Lily's closest relative and she needs your help" sort of thing. Or, could the letter have had nothing to do with Lily at all. I kept thinking about JK's squib comment. What is a squib? A muggle born to a wizard family who often wishes they were magical. Remember Filch. What if P was the opposite? A magical person born to a muggle family who wished she was non-magical? What if P had gotten her own letter inviting her to Hogwarts? Somthing she's ashamed of and never mentions. Maybe DD tried to convince her to attend Hogwarts without success and then devised a way for her to relinquish her magical powers and abilities so that NOW she is "truly a muggle". Maybe she even briefly attended Hogwarts. Remember in PS/SS Petunia hints that she has abit more knowledge of the wizarding world when she tries to get vernon to see that nailing up the doors and windows won't prevent the letters for Harry from being delivered. Of course she grew up with a witch, so this might not mean that much. But what about the time at the beginning of OotP when she slips up and reveals her knowledge of dementors and Azkaban? She then explains: "I overheard - that awful boy - tell her about them - years ago". To which Harry replies " If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" P doesn't respond to this which could imply she DOESN"T mean his mum and dad. Add to this the fact that JK said in another interview that Petunia over heard Lily talking to "someone" about the dementors strongly implies that while it WAS Lily, it was NOT James. A friend of mine is convinced it was Snape, what with all the possible Snape-Lily connections popping up. In HBP, Professor Slughorn keeps going on about how great Lily was at potions, Snape's obvious forte. Could they have connected over their mutaul talent? Or could Snape have admired Lily from afar for her talent at potions. Also, in Snapes Worst Memory(OotP), Lily tries to help Snape. Snape, obviously embarrassed and angry calls Lily a mudblood. But did he really mean it? After all, we now know Snape is a half-blood himself. I've never believed the Snape/Lily connection before, but I must say I'm becoming convinced. Could Petunia have overheard Snape and Lily talking at Hogwarts? Or could Snape have ever visited the Evans home? Now that REALLY makes me think! Adriene From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 18:07:45 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:07:45 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135566 Noel wrote: "He says, for example, that "DD has never been much beyond a cardboard cut-out with the word 'wise' written on it." He goes on to note that DD's death was "as suspicious as Gandalf's was in TFOTR"--and then suggests that DD's death is "pivotal" to evaluating JKR's work. Because, for Alexis, "[i]f DD is dead, then the character has been (all along) nothing more than a prop, not at all wise or clever, and his death a rather cheap effort to elicit emotion. On the other hand, if DD is still alive, then he has finally acted in a way that confirms his vaunted skill as a magician and his powers of imagination."" Del replies: Weeellll... I must admit that I am bothered by DD's death too. My only hope is that what seems to have happened is not to be taken at face value, that Snape is not really what he seems to be, because otherwise... For 4 books, Harry has very little interaction with DD. Then in OoP, Harry actually feels anger towards DD. If DD had died at the end of OoP, Harry would have felt much differently about it. Instead, Harry gets to spend one-on-one time with DD, throughout HBP. He grows closer to DD than he'd ever been, he sees DD weak, he helps him. And then what happens? DD dies. And by who is he killed? By Snape, of all people! The one person that DD always said he trusted, without ever giving any good reason, and that Harry always distrusted, often without any good reason either. How trite!! How cliche! So if it turns out that DD's death is no more than it looks like, that Snape was always either on LV's side or on his own (Snape's) side, and that DD was an old fool for trusting him so much, then I'll agree with Mr Alexis that "DD's death was a rather cheap effort to elicit emotion". But if that ever happens, it won't be for at least a couple more years, and by this time the emotion over DD's death will be gone, so it won't offend me so much. Heh :-) Del From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 29 18:08:25 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:08:25 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adrieneamadis" wrote: > I've never believed the Snape/Lily connection before, but I must say > I'm becoming convinced. Could Petunia have overheard Snape and Lily > talking at Hogwarts? Or could Snape have ever visited the Evans home? > Now that REALLY makes me think! > > > Adriene I am coming to the conclusion, now that we know Snape is half-blood and not pure-blood, that Lily was a distant relative of his(cousin). No cannon or anything - but there is no cannon for the Snape loves Lily theory anyway :) colebiancardi From leslie41 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:52:34 2005 From: leslie41 at yahoo.com (leslie41) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:52:34 -0000 Subject: "Revulsion and hatred..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135568 > vmonte: > But with Dumbledore why should he feel vengeance? Gloat about what? > Did Dumbledore wrong him or hurt him in anyway? I think that killing > Dumbledore was the only way Snape could get out of Hogwarts alive. > (You know the pact he made with Draco?) > Snape just made the choice to save his skin, that's all. Leslie41: Yes, that's certainly a possibility I think...that he didn't hate DD but was on LV's side and killed him just because he had to. My opinion on Snape's feelings about killing DD isn't just based on the death scene, but many other clues throughout the book taken as a whole that have been cited already. The point I was trying to make was that Snape doesn't hate DD or want to kill him. To take that further, to say that he "loves" DD, and is obedient to the order, other factors have to be considered beyond what happens in "The Lightning Struck Tower". Vmonte: > I also like the part in PoA when Sirius says that he would have > died > for James. I have no doubt that Dumbledore would have died for > Snape. > Snape probably thinks that's just stupid. Leslie41: I don't think Snape would think that's "stupid" at all, considering that he has risked his life constantly for the order, IMHO. Leslie41 From adrieneamadis at comcast.net Fri Jul 29 18:22:44 2005 From: adrieneamadis at comcast.net (adrieneamadis) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:22:44 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135569 colebiancardi wrote: > No cannon or anything - but there is no cannon for the Snape loves > Lily theory anyway :) Adriene: Well of course there's no cannon yet. Otherwise we'd be sure. It's just a theory right now. But if Snape admired Lily( and JK says that the fact that Lily was a popular girl is important to the story, so someone else or some other people liking her is important) and hated James, he might have been upset or jealous that they ended up together. He might have felt "the greatest regret of his life" (DD's words in HBP) at having in advertently caused her death. He also might feel anger towards Harry for being the proof and result of James and Lily's love and also part of the reason Lily died( she sacrificed herself for Harry instead of taking Voldemort's offer to save herself). This is not cannon, but a theory. A guess that in my opinion isn't contradicted by anything else I know of. Adriene. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 18:41:34 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:41:34 -0000 Subject: E-mail from Scholastic - US vs UK version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Auror Tonks on special assignment reporting in: > > I wrote to a customer care person at Scholastic regarding the extra > line ("He can't kill you if you are already dead.") in the US > version of the books. She did not answer my question fully, which is > par for the course with customer care people, Well done for trying Tonks! IMO their answer does not answer your question at all. It is an answer to a "Why does the British version say 'Trainers' when the US version says 'Sneekers'?" sort of question not "Why are there 2 additional references in the US version (there is a second one that's been discovered too) to pretending someone is dead when there are no references whatsoever to this in the UK version" sort of question! Karen From rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 29 18:58:52 2005 From: rachaelmcadams at yahoo.ca (rachaelmcadams) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:58:52 -0000 Subject: Why James, Not Lily? (WAS: The Ultimate Snape Theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135571 Geoff wrote: > LV is not evil in the sense that he likes to do evil deeds: he goes > for gain. Having parents suffer because they suffer is not what makes > him tick. There is no gain for him in it. In PS his mindset is given > beautifully by Quirrel, who tells Harry that LV has made him > understand that there is no good or evil, but only those with power > and those who are powerless. I am, just as lots of others very curious > why Lily did not have to die (and James did, apparently) but I'm sure > the reason for it was one that was beneficial in one way or another > for LV himself. What I find especially interesting about it, is that > Lily is muggleborn and therefore the kind of witch the DE's despise... Rachael now: So I guess what we really need to think about is: what did Voldemort think he would gain by killing James, but wouldn't gain by killing Lily? Or what did he think he would he lose by killing Lily, but wouldn't lose by killing James? Did he think killing James would give him some extra power that killing Lily wouldn't? Rachael who obsessively caught up with all the post-HBP posts before she wrote this and is sorry if this has been discussed before From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 29 19:06:32 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:32 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adrieneamadis" wrote: > colebiancardi wrote: > > No cannon or anything - but there is no cannon for the Snape loves > > Lily theory anyway :) > > > Adriene: > Well of course there's no cannon yet. Otherwise we'd be sure. It's > just a theory right now. But if Snape admired Lily( and JK says that > the fact that Lily was a popular girl is important to the story, so > someone else or some other people liking her is important) and hated > James, he might have been upset or jealous that they ended up > together. He might have felt "the greatest regret of his life" (DD's > words in HBP) at having in advertently caused her death. He also might > feel anger towards Harry for being the proof and result of James and > Lily's love and also part of the reason Lily died( she sacrificed > herself for Harry instead of taking Voldemort's offer to save > herself). This is not cannon, but a theory. A guess that in my opinion > isn't contradicted by anything else I know of. > > > Adriene. I prefer the Regulus Theory that was the reason why Snape turned. I used a lot of "what do we know based on what the books state" to support that theory and timelines. It at, least, demostrates that Snape isn't just a love-sick fool, which just isn't in his nature - which is why I reject the Snape/Lily theory. And anyways, isn't 15 years long enough for him to get over this? like I said, it could be they are cousins - nothing cannon about it, but there isn't anything else contradicting it either :) Petunia seems to resemble Snape in both looks & temperment. colebiancardi From oiboyz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:09:35 2005 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:09:35 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Reflections_on_Lupin:_DD=92s_trust,_identifying_with_Snape,_and_self-image?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135574 Some observations on Lupin's scene in "A Very Frosty Christmas": Lupin tells Harry that DD's trust in Snape ought to be good enough for all of them: 'It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgment, and I do.' So let's look at DD's judgment of Lupin in PoA. DD let him teach in spite of Snape's furious and repeated warnings that Lupin might help his old friend Sirius get into the castle. And in a way Snape was proved right. Rather than 'fess up to all the dangerous things the Marauders had done in school, Lupin kept the secret of Sirius' animagus form, even though he knew it was probably the key to his escape from Azkaban and his ability to sneak into Hogwarts. There could hardly be more important information for keeping Harry safe, and Lupin abused DD's trust by not telling him. It was a weak sort of selfishness rather than malice, so DD was more right about Lupin's character than Snape was-- but he wasn't completely right. And think of the consequences had Sirius actually been evil. He could easily have murdered Harry in his bed, and Lupin would have had no one to blame but himself. No doubt Lupin is glad that DD gave him a chance anyway. In a way he repays the favor by accepting DD's judgment of Snape, even though Lupin knows better than anyone that DD's not always completely right about people. I wonder if Lupin has decided that Snape, like himself, probably *means* to overcome his character flaws and do the right thing, even if he doesn't always manage to do it, and therefore he ought to be shown a little grace. And now that the poor werewolf isn't getting his Wolfsbane potion any more, he must be back to full-on, savage transformations. Since he lives with other werewolves now, does that mean he's going on rampages with them? Could he have hurt anyone during a full moon? At the least, he's probably not doing much to stop the other werewolves from biting people-- after all, as a double agent he's got to appear sufficiently nasty to win the other side's trust. That's another area in which Lupin probably sympathizes with Snape. Now a few excerpts from Lupin's conversation with Harry: ****************************************** 'What have you been up to lately?' Harry asked Lupin.... 'I've been living among my fellows, my equals,' said Lupin. 'Werewolves,' he added, at Harry's look of incomprehension. 'Nearly all of them are on Voldemort's side.' ****************************************** ****************************************** 'Who's Greyback?' 'You haven't heard of him?' Lupin's hands closed convulsively in his lap. 'Fenrir Greyback is, perhaps, the most savage werewolf alive today. He regards it as his mission in life to bite and to contaminate as many people as possible....' Lupin paused and then said, 'It was Greyback who bit me.' ****************************************** ****************************************** 'I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people.' 'But you are normal!' said Harry fiercely. 'You've just got a-- a problem--' Lupin burst out laughing. 'Sometimes you remind me a lot of James. He called it my "furry little problem" in company. Many people were under the impression that I owned a badly behaved rabbit.' ****************************************** I'm with Harry on this one; I'd like to yell at Lupin. 'You're not contaminated! You just happen to be a werewolf! Now stop that!' Note how Lupin calls other werewolves "fellows" and "equals", even though they're apparently a bunch of savage, disgusting Voldemort supporters. I suspect that living among his "fellows" when they're such nasty creatures has been a blow to Lupin's self-image. He's heard all his life that werewolves are dangerous freaks, so he must be fairly strong-minded to have turned out so well-adjusted anyway. But now, having joined a werewolf pack has got to be affecting Lupin in ways he can't control. It's hard to pretend to part of a community without internalizing their values to a certain extent. There are stories about anthropologists who went native.... It sounds like this spying assignment has Lupin more depressed about being a werewolf than ever; I hope he gets some leave time now and then. Then again, all that I'm-not-normal-I'm-contaminated stuff could be just a habitual defense mechanism, saying nasty things about himself so no one else has a chance to do it first. Or maybe Lupin's self-image is perfectly all right and what we're seeing in this passage is merely his sense of self-deprecating irony. In any case, I'm sure Tonks will find ways to cheer him up. Lupin's looked shabbier than ever in every book since PoA; next time we see him he'd better be healthy and spiffy and cheerful. You listening, JKR? :) -oiboyz From Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:14:12 2005 From: Gregory.Lynn at gmail.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:14:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . Nope In-Reply-To: <005401c59429$b1146140$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <005401c59429$b1146140$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135575 > CathyD now: > I think the Sorting Hat is pretty safe. It is stored in Dumbledore's office. Dumbledore feels that LV/Riddle murdered once (his father/grandparents - which made the diary Horcrux) and then again (he feels it was the second time only) to steal the locket and Hufflepuff cup. That happened in the year or few after he left Hogwarts. There was a 10 year span between the time of the Hepzibah Smith memory and the time DD says LV showed up at Hogwarts wanting a teaching position. While he may have been able to zap his Award for Special Services into a Horcrux, or sneak an already made Horcrux into the Room of Requirement (on his way in or out of DD's office), I don't think he would have been able to cast the spell to turn the Sorting Hat into a Horcrux right there in front of DD. DD can sense that 'this place has known magic' and 'magic always leaves traces, sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style." I think he would have been well aware of what LV was doing had he attempted it at that moment. DD never says that LV was ever inside the school again. Me now: It occurs to me that we have no idea how Professor Dippet died. If Dumbledore believes that the sword is the only thing remaining of Gryffindor's then it stands to reason that before it was taken from the hat, the common belief was that there were no relics of Gryffindor's--save the sorting hat. Now imagine that Hogwarts is your only home...is there anything that says "you're here, you're one of us" more than the sorting hat? It does it literally not to mention the feelings it would engender once it makes its decision. How do we know that Voldemort didn't request another appointment with Dippet, kill him, and make the sorting hat a horcrux? I don't think there is any real evidence to suggest that he did, and at the very least, the fact that Voldemort came back to ask for the job again afterwards suggests that it did not. And yet, it would be fairly easy to work around that without stretching the plot too thin. I doubt it happened, but the possibilities are intriguing. -- Gregory Lynn From AllieS426 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 19:17:20 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:20 -0000 Subject: E-mail from Scholastic - US vs UK version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135576 Allie now: The US version says what?? My version, purchased in good old NYC, does not say sneakers! It took several references to "trainers" before I realized what they were (I was thinking underwear!). --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Auror Tonks on special assignment reporting in: > > > > I wrote to a customer care person at Scholastic regarding the extra > > line ("He can't kill you if you are already dead.") in the US > > version of the books. She did not answer my question fully, which is > > par for the course with customer care people, response> > > Well done for trying Tonks! IMO their answer does not answer your > question at all. It is an answer to a "Why does the British version > say 'Trainers' when the US version says 'Sneekers'?" sort of question > not "Why are there 2 additional references in the US version (there is > a second one that's been discovered too) to pretending someone is dead > when there are no references whatsoever to this in the UK version" > sort of question! > > Karen From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:17:11 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:11 -0000 Subject: ESE!Snape - possible clue! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davenclaw" wrote: > JKR made the scene beautifully ambiguous, and I honestly prefer the > many theories in which Snape's actions are far more complex than > anyone yet realizes. But I really have to wonder, if Snape was on > DD's side all along, and killed him at his own request but against > his own desires, why did he make the Vow and not tell Dumbledore? > And why did he knock out Flitwick? There is ample evidence that > Snape is truly evil, though I would find this outcome probably less > interesting than the many Hero!Snape stories concocted on the 'net. > Although, it would be more satisfying for a huge jerk like Snape to > end up being completely evil and destroyed by Harry. (Or maybe > Wormtail.) > > - davenclaw A lot of people seem to have that sentiment, that somehow Snape being revealed to be a bad guy makes him less interesting than him as a good guy. Frankly I think it makes Snape more interesting. Think about what that means. It means that for fifteen years he was able to pull to wool over the eyes of albus Dumbledore, the man who saw right through Tom Riddle. That makes him a very interesting villain. To me at least. phoenixgod2000 From david_p at istop.com Fri Jul 29 19:18:22 2005 From: david_p at istop.com (david_p2002ca) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:18:22 -0000 Subject: How safe is Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135578 A few thoughts about Harry's safety in book 7: Dumbledore froze Harry on the roof of the Astronomy tower; that spell was lifted once the caster had died. But wait! Back in chapter 3, "Will and Won't", Dumbledore said "The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means Harry has powerful protection while he can still call this house home." (page 57, UK edition) Does this mean that with Dumbledore's demise, Harry will no longer have any protection while staying at Privet Drive? And things may just get worse back at Hogwarts (I am assuming Harry will return; I suspect he may be a part-time student, and part-time DADA professor). Remember chapter 27,"The Lightning-Struck Tower"? Harry and Dumbledore racing back on broomstick after seeing the Dark Mark? "Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle, so they could enter at speed." (page 544, UK edition). So Hogwarts may now be at risk as well, with may of its protections lifted? Poor Harry may be in for a few rude awakenings in book 7 if he takes his safety for granted. David From david_p at istop.com Fri Jul 29 19:23:06 2005 From: david_p at istop.com (david_p2002ca) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:23:06 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135579 I have one slight hope for Snape yet. As he fled the grounds of Hogwarts after killing DD, he gave Harry one last piece of advice - an odd thing for a true villain to do: "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learnto keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape... (page 562, UK edition). If Snape is truly evil, why would he feed Harry advice about how to defeat him or defeat He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? It's a small thing, but it hints that Snape's true loyalty may not be with HWMNBN... in fact, my impression is that Snape's loyalty is all to Snape and Snape alone. David From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 19:33:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:33:04 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero?/Snape a coward? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135580 David: > I have one slight hope for Snape yet. As he fled the grounds of > Hogwarts after killing DD, he gave Harry one last piece of advice - an > odd thing for a true villain to do: > > "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learnto keep your mouth > shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape... (page 562, UK > edition). If Snape is truly evil, why would he feed Harry advice > about how to defeat him or defeat He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? It's a > small thing, but it hints that Snape's true loyalty may not be with > HWMNBN... in fact, my impression is that Snape's loyalty is all to > Snape and Snape alone. Alla: IF there is hope for Snape yet, which I amnot sure about, I don't think it could be based on this piece of advice. I do remember somebody raising this objection earlier, but I don't remember the name of the list member. Sorry! Anyways, what Snape tells Harry shows that he does not get him at all, IMO and it cannot really be considered a helpful advice. Why? Because contrary to what Snape told Harry in OOP ( block the emotions, etc), Dumbledore tells him that his heart saved him, his ability to love could help him to survive, etc. So, even if Snape truly thinks that he is helping ( which again I doubt) I am not sure if his advice would work for Harry at the end. Having said all that, I am not even sure that Snape INTENDED to give the helpful advice. It sounded to me like simple gloating, personally. At least Harry's "COWARD' got under his skin. :-) Oh,while I am at this topic, I just wanted to nod my head in agreement with the idea that this is exactly what we will discover about Snape in book 7 that at one point of his life he DID behave cowardly and it cost either him or people around him a lot. It is just his "pained' reaction strikes with me as someone who protests too much, but knows about himself that he did behave cowardly. I don't know what it is, maybe failure to save Lily, maybe something else. It is just speculation, obviously and I am NOT saying that Snap had been a coward all the time, but I am betting that he WAS a coward during one of very defining moments in his life. Just my speculative opinion of course, Alla. From chp2 at ne.rr.com Fri Jul 29 16:29:27 2005 From: chp2 at ne.rr.com (nocobuzz) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:27 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135581 SSSusan wrote: > Am I the only one who believes that DD was already just about dead by the time Snape arrived on the tower? See, I don't see it as "What is to be GAINED by DD's death?" so much as, "DD is dying, so what needs to be done?" >.... I believe that getting on that broomstick and flying up to the castle with Harry took most of the remaining strength and life out of DD. The longer he stood on the tower, the further he sank down the wall, the weaker he became. > I believe, by the time Snape arrived, DD knew he was a goner. > It's a time of war and the plan must go forward. If the leader is on his way out, the soldier must abide by the final request. Bravo, SSSusan! I think you are absolutely correct! I believe that DD already knew of LV's plan to use Draco...Snape told him...and that he knew that Draco was supposed to kill him. I believe you are correct in surmising that DD was dying and had made a pact with Snape to kill him if the time came, which it did. Snape is one of the good guys, albeit a nasty one, and followed through on DD's orders. DD spent the entire book getting Harry ready. DD also knew of the vow Snape made and knew he must go through with it or die. Snape had argued with DD but DD made him fulfill the pact...that was the plea DD made when Snape arrived at the tower. Snape didn't gloat and quickly departed with Draco to leep his vow of protecting him. I don't like Snape any more than Harry does, but I think we will find that he is loyal to the Order and DD. I believe that DD knew all about Draco's scheme and thus was not surprized by him up on the tower. Again, I think you are right on the money, SSSusan! nocobuzz From slmuth at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:45:07 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:45:07 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135582 David wrote: As he fled the grounds of Hogwarts after killing DD, he gave Harry one last piece of advice - an odd thing for a true villain to do: > > "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learnto keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape... (page 562, UK edition). If Snape is truly evil, why would he feed Harry advice > about how to defeat him or defeat He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? Now Janeway: I find it interesting that so many people see this scene as Snape giving Harry advice. If that's what he's doing here, it looks like JKR doesn't intend for Harry to follow it. This is from her Mugglenet/Leaky interview, part 2: "I had an interesting discussion, I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry's problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories." So Harry has "pretty much given up on doing or attempting" Occlumency for some pretty integral psychological reasons. Sounds like once again Snape just doesn't "get" Harry. To me his insistence that Harry play by LV's rules (mouth shut, mind closed) doesn't sound like especially valuable advice. Janeway From alanamichelle at msn.com Fri Jul 29 19:17:15 2005 From: alanamichelle at msn.com (alana_126) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:15 -0000 Subject: Astronomy Tower Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135584 Does anyone else find it interesting that the whole dramatic fiasco that resulted in DD's "death" took place at the top of the Astronomy Tower, the place DD most liked to visit to clear his head? Also, I see a small connection between the Astronomy tower and the fact that DD kept the centaur Firenze--who since OoP has been teaching students how to read the planets--on staff. The fact that there are 2 teachers teaching Divination (the Centaur and Prof Trwelany,) one having been the speaker of the prophesy and the other having helped DD in some mysterious way that got him thrown out of the forrest is something i'd like to futher research. Now this theory is only interesting if you think Firenze got kicked out of his herd for doing something other than teaching at the school. The Centaurs obviously held no ill will against DD since they gave him a high salute at the funeral. Is it crazy to think that several teachers (also members of the Order) are envolved in a fake death for DD? alana From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 19:52:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:52:20 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135585 grindieloe wrote: > I think that Harry calls Snape a coward for the simple reason that > Snape would never think to take on Dumbledore if DD had a wand and > could defend himself properly. That makes him a coward in this > instance. Carol responds: I agree that this is Harry's reason for calling him a coward, but I don't agree that Harry is correct. I also agree that Snape was not expecting a wandless, defenseless, and dying Dumbledore. But that doesn't mean that Snape found it easy to kill him or was happy to do so. Perhaps he is desperatley hoping, even as he "hurtles" to the tower to save Draco, that Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard in the WW despite LV's view to the contrary, will save himself, dealing with the Death Eaters as he dealt with Fudge and his cronies in OoP, and able to escape using Fawkes. Had he done so, Snape would not have had to kill him. And perhaps that accounts in part for Snape's anger, which Harry reads as hatred, and his revulsion, which (as we've already estableished) may relate to Dumbledore's silent request rather than to Dumbledore himself. At any rate, the hatred and revulsion do not appear in Snape's face until *after* his wordless exchange with Dumbledore. Moreover, if Snape had not fulfilled his Unbreakable Vow and killed Dumbledore when Draco failed to do it, he would have died and the Death Eaters would have committed the murder themselves. Imagine Fenrir Grayback ravaging and desecrating Dumbledore's dead body. Such a vision in Snape's mind, if indeed he was loyal to Dumbledore, would certainly account for a look of hatred and revulsion. I hope we are all agreed that Dumbledore, who definitely is not a coward, is not pleading for his life. In any case, it seems clear that he is already dying at this point, and though he retains his wisdom, he has lost most of his powers. Surely the message exchanged between them was not "Severus, please! Don't kill me!" (And what would be the point? He was going to die, anyway.) I think it was something like: "Severus, please! You cannot save me. You *must* keep your word." And Snape, horrified and revolted by his own deed but more so by what will happen if he breaks his vow and fails both Draco and Dumbledore, does what he has promised Dumbledore he will do if he has no alternative. And he also has a duty to save and protect Draco. That, too, is part of the vow. As we learn in the Pensieve scene of Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, Snape has faced danger from the time he first became Dumbledore's spy before he began teaching at Hogwarts and before the Potters died. We again see him placing himself in danger at the end of GoF, when Dumbledore says "You know what I must ask you to do," that is, to return to Voldemort and persuade him that he has not left him forever. If he were really a coward, or motivated by the simple self-preservation that Portrait!Phineas tells us is the Slytherin philosophy, he would not have risked death to fulfill this requet. And he would simply have sneered at Harry and told him that courage was nothing but recklessness of the kind that led to Sirius Black's death. But Snape values courage and the charge of cowardice in such circumstances pains him almost to the point of insanity. IMO, he is tortured because the charge is false and he can't defend himself to Harry, who hates him and is still foolishly ignoring Snape's lessons. Remember Dumbledore's words to Harry when Harry tells him the conversation that he's overheard between Snape and Draco, which even Harry suspects that Snape must already have told DD or he would not dismiss it as unimportant: "I understood everything you told me. I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did" (HBP 359 Am. ed.). I think that we as readers should consider this possibility as well. On a sidenote: I'm not sure that the nickname "Snivellus" is directly related to cowardice. Snape dislikes it and retaliates with sarcasm when Sirius Black uses it in OoP, but he doesn't go ballistic. (We now know that it wasn't being turned upside down and humiliated so much as having his own spell used against him that makes the Pensieve scene his worst memory, and that James never attacked him one on one; it was always in the company of his friends, four on one even if Remus and Wormtail did not directly participate.) Perhaps "Snivellus" means not "coward" but "crybaby" and relates to a moment before the Pensieve scene at the end of their fifth year when MWPP found Severus in tears. I'm guessing that this would have been when he was still a child, but it could have been later--and would have resulted in more sneering from James and sirius if he'd been fifteen rather than eleven or twelve. And I'm guessing that the cause was the death of his mother, the one person who had loved him. That would give him ample reason to hate MWPP, and perhaps it accounts for the increasing darkness of his annotations to his potions book and for the invention of Sectumsempra, "for enemies." Could it have been his hatred for James that pushed him into joining the Death Eaters? If so, once he repented joining, it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to forgive James. But this paragraph, I admit, is speculation, and is not central to my argument in this post. My point is that we should not simply accept Harry's view regarding Snape--that he is a traitor and a murderer without justification or extenuating circumstances. Snape faced the terrible choice of killing Dumbledore and being viewed as a traitor and murderer by the entire WW or breaking his vow and dying, escaping the duty to kill Dumbledore himself but leaving him to a worse death at the hands of the Death Eaters (and breaking his promise to help and protect Draco as well). And he chose infamy rather than death. That, surely, was not the choice of a coward. Even if you don't accept my arguments, and certainly some are stronger than others, I ask anyone who sees Snape in Harry's black-and-white terms to reread HBP looking for signs of misdirection on JKR's part From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri Jul 29 19:42:11 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:42:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in HBP. Was: Re: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135586 > Alla: > > Erm... sorry, but softening Harry up for what? Just as youself, I was > quite mad at Dumbledore at the end of OOP, or more like I was annoyed > with JKR for failing to convey ( to me only of course) the depth of > Dumbledore's remorse for his treatment of Harry in his final speech. > > I think she conveyed it quite clearly in HBP, personally AND > Dumbledore was back to his normal self, IMO. Oh, I agree. I think she managed to recover from OOTP quite nicely. I was just commenting on what has appeared in other forums. Actually, as I said in my earlier post, I'm quite bemused by the changes we see in DD. My comment about Plot Devicium wasn't so much a criticism as simply an acknowledgment that phoenixgod does have a point, and an attempt to convey my opinion that at that juncture in the story Dumbledore has slipped back into Basil Exposition mode. I will say that DD in that scene seems to know very well that something BIG has just blown up in his face. His blanching at Harry's outburst is a signal. Lupinlore From saidicam29 at verizon.net Fri Jul 29 19:58:36 2005 From: saidicam29 at verizon.net (saidicam29) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:58:36 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135587 David wrote: > I have one slight hope for Snape yet. As he fled the grounds of > Hogwarts after killing DD, he gave Harry one last piece of advice - an > odd thing for a true villain to do: > > "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learnto keep your mouth > shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape... (page 562, UK > edition). If Snape is truly evil, why would he feed Harry advice > about how to defeat him or defeat He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? It's a > small thing, but it hints that Snape's true loyalty may not be with > HWMNBN... in fact, my impression is that Snape's loyalty is all to > Snape and Snape alone. > There's one other thing that stuck out to me, in this same scene, that also gives me a little hope for Snape. Forgive me, I don't have my book in front of me, so I am paraphrasing by memory. Someone hits Harry with a spell, causing Harry great pain and I would assume eventual death. Snape saves harry! Now, his apparent excuse is that they had been ordered not to kill Harry becuase V wants to do that himself. However, if Snape truely hated Harry as much as lets on (I'm not saying he likes Harry, mind you), and he hated DD and was truely on V's side...then why would he care if someone else broke V's orders and killed Harry? Snape's butt would't be on the line, and he would have Harry dead to boot! I found that odd if Snape truely was on the DE's side. Besides...Snape didn't attack anyone else there, and as soon as he killed DD (the *only* action he attempted to do) he gets all the DE's out of there...even though they weren't losing or anything. Why not fight as well? Why not try to take the school...call more DE's to the rescue? As for him knocking the other professor out in his office...I'm thinking that (possibly) he did so to ensure that he wasn't followed to the tower. If he knew what was going on, and that he might/would have to kill DD up there...having another professor would interfere with the plan because surely they would try to stop him, or would be killed in the process. Saidicam29 From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 20:05:19 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:05:19 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero?/Snape a coward? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135588 > Alla: > > It is just speculation, obviously and I am NOT saying that Snap had been a coward all the time, but I am betting that he WAS a coward during one of very defining moments in his life. Dungrollin: What would you think of him if the cowardice turns out to be Snape having cried in a corner as a child, rather than trying to protect his witch mother from his abusive muggle father? From vlngrrl at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 20:09:03 2005 From: vlngrrl at yahoo.com (vlngrrl) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:09:03 -0000 Subject: Nonverbal spells Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135589 I was wondering what spells are cast nonverbally, and what spells are cast verbally. There, obviously, is a big emphasis on non-verbal spells in HBP, and I noticed that even though most incantations are "thought", Dumbledore says "Lumos." The unforgivable curses are also spoken. However, in the Ministry Battle in OoP, the Death Eaters were using a lot of non-verbal, as were the Oop memebers. Why, if all spells could be non-verbal, would anybody speak the incantation out loud? This seems like unneccessary effort to me. Any ideas? - Sarah From adrieneamadis at comcast.net Fri Jul 29 19:17:41 2005 From: adrieneamadis at comcast.net (adrieneamadis) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:41 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135590 Colebiancardi wrote: > I prefer the Regulus Theory that was the reason why Snape turned. Oooooh! What is the Regulus Theory? I haven't heard that one yet. >It at, least, demostrates that > Snape isn't just a love-sick fool, which just isn't in his nature - > which is why I reject the Snape/Lily theory. And anyways, isn't 15 > years long enough for him to get over this? I agree. I don't like the idea of lovesick Snape either. Which is why I've been so averse to the "Snape loves Lily" theory so far. I don't actaully believe Snape loves Lily, but that he might have once admired her, maybe kind of liked her romantically, but felt he was made a fool of when she started dating James. So what if Snape isn't lovesick as much as he is bitter? Might he be upset that he once had feelings for her? Bitter that she fell for James? Constantly reminded of James and her everytime he looks at Harry? Not in the schmoopy "Aww, Lily" way, but in a "I'm alone and bitter and don't want to be reminded of the past" way. Adrienne. From daveshardell at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 20:19:10 2005 From: daveshardell at yahoo.com (davenclaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:19:10 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135591 Just reading through some old messages I missed and had to comment on my favorite debate: smilingator81: > IMO, JKR is operating the Potterverse under Theory 2... in which there > is one time with possibly many perspectives. An important aspect of > this theory is that events can not be changed during time travel. If > someone attempted to change the past, they would fail. TTH! and TTHr! > could not have gone back and changed anything because this is > impossible. What happened the first time from 9-12 on that night is > exactly the same thing that happened the second time from 9-12. We > just saw the story from two different perspectives. If time can't be changed, then why would Dumbledore need to send the kids back in time at all? Everything had already worked itself out, right? This theory requires that the impact of having gone back in time is seen before the point in time at which the time travelers actually go back in time. It means that you would make the decision to go back in time with the understanding that the impact of this decision had already been experienced, but that the traveling itself was required in order to fulfill what had already happened. Now who in the world would waste their time (no pun intended) going back in time to make happen what, from their perspective, had already happened? Why bother? This basically means that if they choose NOT to go back in time, then they never went back in time. This means that NO MATTER WHAT DECISION THEY MAKE when given the opportunity to time turn, THAT decision will be what makes events occur as they have already occurred. This means that Dumbledore could have said "Buckbeak escaped and Sirius is escaping right now, but only because you are about to go back in time and make that happen, so go." And somehow they have no choice in the matter, since they are essentially predestined to go back in time. There is just no logical way that this is the way time travel works in this story. I don't buy that theory for half a second. I think the only thing that comes close to making sense is that time is changed, and we are only shown the same series of events AFTER they have been changed, first from the perspective of the non-time-travelers and then from the perspective of the time-travelers. Some other series of events was altered and never shown, and in my opinion never even considered in JKR's mind - I think that we she writes is the extent to which she envisioned time travel and didn't really get this far into the consequences of that portrayal. - davenclaw From ngaldes at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:38:24 2005 From: ngaldes at yahoo.com (ngaldes) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:38:24 -0000 Subject: Green Goop/Red Rubies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "casmir2012" wrote: > Question: Why couldn't they dip the cup in the green stuff and then > pour it out on the floor? > > And why was the green stuff still there since, presumably, RAB had already taken/replaced the locket ? Norbert From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 20:28:03 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:28:03 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Julie wrote: > "I think this is because of the genre in which she is writing the > books. It is a mystery/fantasy genre, not a romance genre. I do > expect very little in the way of romance in the HP series, and what > little I do expect is more along the lines of teenage angst for > character development." > > Del replies: > I don't really agree, for several reasons. > > First, JKR is writing *her* books. She doesn't care about sticking to > a genre. I seem to remember that she actually said so in an interview. > Julie again, According to JKR's interview with Mugglenet/TLC, she is writing according to a genre. (Quote) ES: The majority thought he was going to die in book six ? well, six or seven. Most thought it was going to be in seven. JKR: Really. Yeah. ES: It was probably 65/35, but definitely, most thought he was going to die. JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot. ES: The wise old wizard with the beard always dies. JKR: Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes. (End quote) This is why I stated that the genre she is using does not have romance as a primary focus, as would be the case of a romance novel/series. Julie From muellem at bc.edu Fri Jul 29 20:29:21 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:29:21 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adrieneamadis" wrote: > Colebiancardi wrote: > > I prefer the Regulus Theory that was the reason why Snape turned. > > Oooooh! What is the Regulus Theory? I haven't heard that one yet. > well, I posted it a couple of days back and only 3, count 'em, 3 people responded :) I will post the main link here and you can follow the responses. Let me know what you think....this is my 3rd post of the day, so I may not be able to respond today but I will tomorrow. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135011 there is one comment that didn't make it on that thread, as I renamed it "Is Regulus the reason?" and it got lost - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135391 I must admit, it was one of my more brilliant ideas :) If you follow the thread, you will notice that I added a fourth option in, in case Regulus is still alive. > >It at, least, demostrates that > > Snape isn't just a love-sick fool, which just isn't in his nature - > > which is why I reject the Snape/Lily theory. And anyways, isn't 15 > > years long enough for him to get over this? > > I agree. I don't like the idea of lovesick Snape either. Which is why > I've been so averse to the "Snape loves Lily" theory so far. I don't > actaully believe Snape loves Lily, but that he might have once > admired her, maybe kind of liked her romantically, but felt he was > made a fool of when she started dating James. So what if Snape isn't > lovesick as much as he is bitter? Might he be upset that he once had > feelings for her? Bitter that she fell for James? Constantly reminded > of James and her everytime he looks at Harry? Not in the > schmoopy "Aww, Lily" way, but in a "I'm alone and bitter and don't > want to be reminded of the past" way. > > Adrienne. If Rowling goes down that route, I will be disappointed. That whole theme, in my very humble opinion, is one that belongs in a bodice-ripper novel. Let's not forget, these are supposed to be children's novels, and I expect they will all go "EWWWWWWW" if that is the reason. I expect much better reasons why Snape really did turn. Even the bitter reason is hard to swallow(for me *smiles*) I would think that if Snape is Good!Snape, of course he would feel remorse & regret for James and Lily's deaths - afterall, he was the one who told Voldemort the prophecy in the first place. His actions led to their deaths and if they were all on the same team, well, there you go. I would feel remorse & regret as well. colebiancardi (who does not like to put people into relationships where there are none) From sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net Fri Jul 29 20:28:53 2005 From: sonjamccartCPA at verizon.net (sonjaartemisia) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:28:53 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . Nope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135595 CathyD wrote: > I think the Sorting Hat is pretty safe. It is stored in Dumbledore's office. Gregory wrote: > It occurs to me that we have no idea how Professor Dippet died. If Dumbledore believes that the sword is the only thing remaining of Gryffindor's then it stands to reason that before it was taken from the hat, the common belief was that there were no relics of Gryffindor's--save the sorting hat. SonjaArtemisia writes: I got the impression that Harry merely was able to retrieve the sword from the hat when it was needed, that the sword had been kept in Dumbledore's office (since Dumbledore was a Gryffindor and would have kept it safe.) However, the references I remember are not clear about this: "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry," said Dumbledore simply. (CS 334 U.S. version) "...I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe." Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case. (HBP 505 U.S. version) My impression of the second passage was that the sword was "around" during the time that LV was making his "house" horcruxes and that is why Dumbledore did not elaborate that the sword was not at Hogwarts. I would like to hear others' theories... Sonja From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 29 20:47:56 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:47:56 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > I must admit that I am bothered by DD's death too. My only hope is > that what seems to have happened is not to be taken at face value, > that Snape is not really what he seems to be, because otherwise... I think it is very clear that Snape is dedicated to protecting Harry from harm, odd as it may be. I thought the most bizzare comment from him was "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!" when Harry tried to Crucio him after he (Snape) has just used a much worse Unforgivable Curse on DD. Then later, he prevented the Death Eaters from harming Harry. Why he does it will probably be answered in book 7, but both his hatred and protectiveness towards Harry has been a thread in all books since #1. As for why he decided to kill DD, I am guessing he was obligated to by his oath in the beginning of the book, but who knows... > For 4 books, Harry has very little interaction with DD. Then in OoP, > Harry actually feels anger towards DD. If DD had died at the end of > OoP, Harry would have felt much differently about it. Instead, Harry > gets to spend one-on-one time with DD, throughout HBP. He grows closer > to DD than he'd ever been, he sees DD weak, he helps him. And then > what happens? DD dies. But that's again has been the theme of the books - as soon as Harry gets close to a protective adult, he is taken out of the picture - his parents were murdered, Sirius was murdered, DD was murdered... And by who is he killed? By Snape, of all > people! The one person that DD always said he trusted, without ever > giving any good reason, and that Harry always distrusted, often > without any good reason either. > > How trite!! How cliche! It is not trite and cliche since we don't know the answer to why DD trusted him and why he broke the trust. Until then, there is no point in passing judgement on the appropriateness of that story line. > So if it turns out that DD's death is no more than it looks like, that > Snape was always either on LV's side or on his own (Snape's) side, and > that DD was an old fool for trusting him so much, then I'll agree with > Mr Alexis that "DD's death was a rather cheap effort to elicit emotion". No, I disagree. I think Snape is the most complex and interesting character in the serie, and I am sure that book 7 will have an excellent reason for both DD's trust and Snape's seeming treachery. DD was old and not afraid of death. I doubt that his trust of Snape was due to his certainty that Snape would not hurt him, but rather that Snape supports the overall plan that DD had in mind on how to defeat Voldemort. Just because Snape killed DD does not mean he foresook that goal - his protectiveness towards Harry in the final scene between them suggests that he may still have that ultimate goal in mind (or obligated to it by yet another unbreakable oath?). Defeating Voldemort does not require DD to be alive, but Harry. Me I think that it's highly likely that Snape swore another Unbreakable Oath - to protect Harry. That would explain his actions in all the books and also DD's trust in him, and also why killing DD does not necessarily indicate betrayal of that trust. Salit From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 20:55:20 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:55:20 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"/Snape as coward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135597 Carol: > My point is that we should not simply accept Harry's view regarding > Snape--that he is a traitor and a murderer without justification or > extenuating circumstances. Alla: That is a possibility, OR there is also another possibility that Snape killed his mentor, the only person who ever believed in him without any extenuating circumstances. Carol: Snape faced the terrible choice of killing > Dumbledore and being viewed as a traitor and murderer by the entire WW > or breaking his vow and dying, escaping the duty to kill Dumbledore > himself but leaving him to a worse death at the hands of the Death > Eaters (and breaking his promise to help and protect Draco as well). > And he chose infamy rather than death. That, surely, was not the > choice of a coward. Alla: Wait a second. Duty to kill Dumbledore? Canon, please. Besides, it could be a choice of a coward IF Snape values his life more than death. It could be a choice of a traitor even if Snape wants to be the next Dark Lord, etc. Carol: > Even if you don't accept my arguments, and certainly some are stronger > than others, I ask anyone who sees Snape in Harry's black-and-white > terms to reread HBP looking for signs of misdirection on JKR's part Alla: I did and while they could be here, it is also possible that JKR's books are simpler that we think in many ways and maybe what Snape turned out to be was always right in front of us. But with JKR one can never be sure, that is true. > Dungrollin: > What would you think of him if the cowardice turns out to be Snape > having cried in a corner as a child, rather than trying to protect his > witch mother from his abusive muggle father? Alla: If that was the only cowardice he ever showed, I would feel pity for him. But my guess that his cowardice would have more relevance to more recent events. Besides, I think it is a possibility that Snape may not have been abused at all, since we do not know for sure that the boy in that scene was Snape, IMO. Again, your guess is as good as mine. :-) Lupinlore > I will say that DD in that scene seems to know very well that > something BIG has just blown up in his face. His blanching at > Harry's outburst is a signal. > Alla: Thanks for clarifying your position, so we do agree in general. I ahve another question though about this paragraph of yours. What do you mean by that? Are you saying that DD suspects Snape despite him constantly saying that he trusts the guy or are you saying that DD realises that this should not have been kept a secret from Harry? JMO of course, Alla. From scarah at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 21:17:29 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:17:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Green Goop/Red Rubies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32025905072914174ff17fa9@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135598 casmir2012: > Question: Why couldn't they dip the cup in the green stuff and then > pour it out on the floor? Sarah: Dumbledore has inspected the potion thoroughly and proclaimed that it will not work. "This potion cannot be pen?etrated by hand, Vanished, parted, scooped up, or siphoned away, nor can it be Transfigured, Charmed, or otherwise made to change its nature." I imagine that if you try and pour it anywhere it simply flows back into the basin. Sarah From scarah at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 21:25:16 2005 From: scarah at gmail.com (Scarah) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:25:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] E-mail from Scholastic - US vs UK version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <320259050729142528d2f7bd@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135599 Tonks: > The philosophy of the > translations was always to give the American reader the same > experience--or as close to the same experience as possible--as the > British reader. Sarah: What is she saying? I am American and do not understand this word "philosopy." Does she mean "sorcery?" ;) You're right, it doesn't answer your question. I am also curious why American readers aren't to know that Sirius' vault was number 711. Sarah From pansophy2000 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 21:10:35 2005 From: pansophy2000 at yahoo.com (pansophy2000) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:10:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135600 Marianne: >I have to agree with Sherry on the question of the inadvisability of >keeping Harry in the dark about whatever grand scheme Snape and DD >supposedly came up with to cover this non-death. After all, that >tactic blew up in their faces once before. Well, an easy answer to that is that Harry never mastered occulmency and therefore if Harry knows DD is alive then there is a real risk that Voldermort could also discover this. The goal of faking DD's death would be three fold. One, Snape would have increased status with Voldermort and the Death Eaters and hence access to more information and oppertunities to assist the Order. Voldermort would likely come out of hiding and expose himself in ways that he would not if DD was alive. And thirdly death is the perfect cover for DD to continue to his search for ways to destroy Voldermort and protect Harry from behind the scenes. The question is what advantage does DD's death have as a story teller. Well, at least for me it makes me feel like Harry is our last hope of destroying Voldermort, and therefore if he does it then Harry will be all the more the hero. However IMO, this line of the story goes against many of the themes we've seen thus far. For one, while Harry has escaped Voldermort more than any other person, he has also had loads of help in each book, not to mention some luck. Also, for me, if we are to believe that love will ultimately destroy Voldermort, then isn't it a bitter pill to swallow that love's siblings "trust" and "faith" in others would be the thing that kills DD? Frankly, given Harry's complete inability to handle even Snape, I don't see how Harry can realistically handle Voldermort in the span of a single book and I just don't see how it can be done with DD. Even if Snape kills Voldermort, or makes it possible, no one would believe that he didn't kill DD for his own advantage no matter what he said or did. One more thing, as a story-teller, Serius' death may have been necessary for us to believe that DD could really be dead. Plus, bringing DD back in some way does not seem as trite given that a main character does in fact die in the series. In my mind, it is perfectly plausible that the the liquid Harry forced Dumbledore to drink at the horocrux site was really a potion devised by Dumbledore/Snape to put the drinker into suspended animation for some period of time...enough time for a furneral and such to take place. Snape triggers the final step of the potion with a silent spell, feigns the forbidden curse, and leaves as if he has killed DD. When DD awakes after a few days buried in the ground, he simply appartates to the location of his choosing. The unbreakable promise may not take effect until Draco is in danger from DD, hence Snape not dying during any of Draco's failed attempts with the necklace and such. Therefore, as long as DD does not attempt to harm Draco, which he never does, Snape is not obligated by the promise to kill DD. Harry's inability to block Voldermort from his mind would mean that he would have to be in the dark on the plan. Plus, Harry would confirm to everyone (and believe) that Snape killed DD, as would the Death Eaters to Voldermort, ensuring that Snape would be in good position to help the order when the time comes and faciltate Voldermort's false sense of invincibility. To me at least, the plausiblity of the story becomes much harder with DD dead than alive, and the overarching lesson that love is greater than evil becomes blury at best. -pan From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Fri Jul 29 21:34:42 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:34:42 -0000 Subject: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135601 The way both other teachers at Hogwarts, and other members of the Order of the Phoenix, aside from Dumbledore, treat Snape is evident when Potter begins spreading the story of what happened on the tower. Order members all say that, well, Albus trusted him, so we did. Same with the teachers. Oh, Albus tried to instill respect for the man, but it was always just a forced "Sir" or "Professor". Now, this never quite trusting Mr. Snape but for the vigilance of Albus, is a little shameful, but it is there. Now, this means, then, that they didn't trust him for himself, but because their boss did. Sirius was an exception, but, well, Sirius is dead, darn it. Anyway, this weak sort of acceptance couldn't have been very nice for Mr. Snape - surely he'd have seen through it. It would have rankled anyone, really. No wonder Mr. Snape seems more fully and completely himself when parrying with Cissy and Bella at Spinners End. No air of unspoken distrust here. Nope. Here everything is out in the open. What a relief to be in a space where Mr. Snape doesn't have to hide his past, or downplay it, or act in such a way that it is never brought into question. Playtime is over, folks. He talks pretty clearly about his work at Hogwarts. Was never this clear at Hogwarts about his role in the DE, that's for sure. Now, some have defended Mr. Snape by saying that he was trying to protect Harry as Mr. Snape left with Little Draco Malfoy. If Mr. Snape was undercover, why would he stop a crucio or two aimed at Potter? Wouldn't that raise suspicion, to stop it? If Mr. Snape was not undercover, but a DE, why would he stop a crucio or two aimed at Potter. All for the cause, the morale! Of course, I think Snape is a DE and he knows it's useless to try to do anything final with Potter cause Snape has figured out or been told or mind whatever'd someone for the whole prophecy. Mr. Snape stops Harry from cursing him, but doesn't really do much back to Potter - a taunt or two. Now, this is evidence of what? That Mr. Snape cares about Harry's ethical progress? That his behaviour remains legal? I don't understand. It's more like Mr. Snape is sizing him up, and maybe, just maybe, hoping the damn Potter kid has enough wherewithal to destroy Voldemort so Mr. Snape can reform the DE into something less of a personality cult, and more of a secret society again. If I said maybe he just wanted to be nice and give poor Harry a break, or that he was understanding of Harry's feelings and really *cares* what happens to him, you'd say I was being sarcastic. And so I would be. Snape wanted to get the heck out of there, and make a successful turn of a botched little Draco Malfoy job. So no dilly-dallying, they are all ready to leave now, and Potter's been disarmed, let's just go. At any rate, stopping curses aimed at Potter, or stopping Potter's curses, is in no way evidence of any sort of joint Mr. Snape/Albus plan, or any sort of concern for Harry, other than that he doesn't screw up and lose to that crazy Voldemort jerk. dan From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 29 21:31:24 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:31:24 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] platform 9 3/4 References: Message-ID: <42EAA02C.000001.03524@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 135602 Auntydle asks: I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the number of the platform? ...just wondering. Donna Replies: Probably confusion and frustration trying to get 3 very active boys and Percy packed, organized, fed, dressed, herded into one spot, plus worry about finances and being pressed for time. BTW, Ron makes number 6 son to attend Hogwarts - Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, George, and Ron. I'm surprised the woman is sane at this time of year. Seems to me Percy is the only one that isn't "adventuresome". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 21:55:10 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:55:10 -0000 Subject: Nonverbal spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vlngrrl" wrote: > I was wondering what spells are cast nonverbally, and what spells > are cast verbally. ... in the Ministry Battle in OoP, the Death > Eaters were using a lot of non-verbal, as were the Oop memebers. > Why, if all spells could be non-verbal, would anybody speak the > incantation out loud? This seems like unneccessary effort to me. > > Any ideas? > > - Sarah bboyminn: I think virtually any spell can be cast non-verbally *IF* you are a powerful and talented enough wizard. Notice that older wizards cast silent spells easily, they have had a long time to practice. Certainly some spells lend themselves to being more effectively cast silently, but in general, I think it is the power, skill, and experience of the wizard that ultimately determines if a particular spell can be cast without speaking. Also, note that the 'Purple Flame' spell that took out Hermione in the Dept of Mysteries would have been a lot worse if the caster had been able to speak the words. So, for more powerful and demanding spells, the spell is diminished by not being able to say the words. I seriously doubt we will ever see the AK-Killing Curse cast without words. So, logically the easier the spell, the easier it is to cast without words. Lighting a candle, heating a cup of water for tea, Lumos, and other basic and commons spells would become so easy and instinctive over a lifetime, that most wizards could do them easily without words. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 22:19:03 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:19:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Felix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135604 I believe Dumbledore was taking the Felix potion the night of his death. The way he treats Harry and oddly reckless behavior he exhibits appear to be consistent with the Felix toxicity symptoms Slughorn describes on page 187 Am ed. (Recklessness, overconfidence, and giddiness) Did anyone else find his behavior a little odd? I know that there doesn't seem to be a lot of luck involved in getting killed, but Slughorn does emphasize that the potion should only be taken on an ordinary day. And what if the luckiest thing that could happen for the good guys is Dumbledore dying? We know Dumbledore is NOT overly-concerned about death. He IS absolutely focused on getting rid of Tom Riddle. Felix works in peculiar ways, and I think that some things Dumbledore did that night may have enormous implications in Book 7 and Voldemort's ultimate downfall. HG From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 22:52:23 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:52:23 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <42EAA02C.000001.03524@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Auntydle asks: > > I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just > discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the > number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to > follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of > her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the > number of the platform? ...just wondering. > > > Donna Replies: > > Probably confusion and frustration trying to get 3 very active boys and > Percy packed, organized, fed, dressed, herded into one spot, > plus worry about finances and being pressed for time. BTW, Ron > makes number 6 son to attend Hogwarts - Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, George, and Ron. I'm surprised the woman is sane at this time of year. Seems to me Percy is the only one that isn't "adventuresome". Geoff: Has this question been asked a second time or is this a very late answer? It was originally posed in message 133241 and I gave my own suggestion in message 133412. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 22:59:04 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135606 > Saidicam29 > There's one other thing that stuck out to me, in this same scene, > that also gives me a little hope for Snape. Forgive me, I don't > have my book in front of me, so I am paraphrasing by memory. > Someone hits Harry with a spell, causing Harry great pain and I > would assume eventual death. Snape saves harry! Now, his apparent > excuse is that they had been ordered not to kill Harry becuase V > wants to do that himself. However, if Snape truely hated Harry as > much as lets on (I'm not saying he likes Harry, mind you), and he > hated DD and was truely on V's side...then why would he care if > someone else broke V's orders and killed Harry? Snape's butt > would't be on the line, and he would have Harry dead to boot! I > found that odd if Snape truely was on the DE's side. I can think of at least one reason. Snape is smart enough to have put together the prophecy from what little he heard the same way Ron and Hermione did. He might want to keep Harry alive to eventually take down Voldemort, trusting the prophecy to give Harry the power, so that Snape can step into the power vacumn left behind. With DD and Voldemort dead, Snape would have a lot of room to play Dark Lord. Playing both sides basically. I would agree that you can read the Harry/Snape duel as instruction or advice on snapes part, but you can also read it as gloating. And there is that one spell that Snape casts on Harry that knocks him to the ground. Who knows what else could have happened if Buckbeak hadn't shown up. As for him knocking the other professor out in > his office...I'm thinking that (possibly) he did so to ensure that > he wasn't followed to the tower. If he knew what was going on, and > that he might/would have to kill DD up there...having another > professor would interfere with the plan because surely they would > try to stop him, or would be killed in the process. But the bottom of tower was charmed so only DE could go up there. I doubt Flitwick could have torn down the ward in the middle of a firefight soon enough to make a difference in the battle. phoenixgod2000 From smilingator81 at aol.com Fri Jul 29 23:02:57 2005 From: smilingator81 at aol.com (smilingator4915) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:02:57 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA (long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135607 smilingator: I was so excited to see a post that wasn't about HBP... turned out to be in reference to a post I made about 3 weeks ago on time traveling in POA (see post #132073) >davenclaw: > If time can't be changed, then why would Dumbledore need to send the > kids back in time at all? Everything had already worked itself out, > right? Ahhh, the beauty of DD's statement and Hermione's understanding of "more time". Harry and Hermione did have a choice as to whether or not they should go back in time. Since H/Hr did go back in time, Buckbeak and Sirius were saved. The reason that everything worked itself out was BECAUSE the two went back in time, not IN SPITE of the fact that they went back in time. Had H/Hr not gone back, Buckbeak would be dead and probably more people than Sirius would have been *kissed* by the dementors. > This theory requires that the impact of having gone back in > time is seen before the point in time at which the time travelers > actually go back in time. It means that you would make the decision > to go back in time with the understanding that the impact of this > decision had already been experienced, but that the traveling itself > was required in order to fulfill what had already happened. A tad bit confusing (I know), but yes, you have the right idea! At the point in time where H/Hr decided to go back in time (well, really Hermione did because Harry was a little confused), they did not know whether or not they would be successful in saving Sirius. But they were willing to try. The full impact of time traveling was not known to the two travellers, but Hermione did realize that the only chance to save Sirius would be to go back in time. >Now who > in the world would waste their time (no pun intended) going back in > time to make happen what, from their perspective, had already > happened? Why bother? TTH!/TTHr! "bothered" because H/Hr did not have enough TIME to learn the truth about Sirius AND save Sirius and Buckbeak. Maybe instead of saying the kids needed "more time", DD should have said that they needed "more help". Essentially, the kids needed to be in two places at once and time travelling allowed them to do that. Keep in mind that the events we read only occurred because the two did decide to time travel. Had they not, we would have read different story. >This basically means that if they choose NOT > to go back in time, then they never went back in time. This means > that NO MATTER WHAT DECISION THEY MAKE when given the opportunity to > time turn, THAT decision will be what makes events occur as they have > already occurred. I couldn't have said it better myself. >This means that Dumbledore could have > said "Buckbeak escaped and Sirius is escaping right now, but only > because you are about to go back in time and make that happen, so > go." He could have said this, but I am not 100% sure that DD knew that Sirius and Buckbeak had escaped. I think he just hoped that the kids would be successful in making this happen. And if he had said it, then it would have blown the suspense of the next few pages, in which we readers crossed our fingers and hoped TTH!/TTHr! pulled it off. >And somehow they have no choice in the matter, since they are > essentially predestined to go back in time. Okay, this statement contradicts what you just said earlier, about the kids CHOOSING to go back in time or not go back in time. They do have a choice whether or not go back in time. It's just that the events that occurred depend on that decision. They chose to go back in time, so Sirius and Buckbeak were saved. Had they not gone back in time, Sirius and Buckbeak would have been lost. > There is just no logical way that this is the way time travel works in > this story. I don't buy that theory for half a second. I think the > only thing that comes close to making sense is that time is changed, > and we are only shown the same series of events AFTER they have been > changed, first from the perspective of the non-time-travelers and then > from the perspective of the time-travelers. Some other series of > events was altered and never shown, and in my opinion never even > considered in JKR's mind - I think that we she writes is the extent to > which she envisioned time travel and didn't really get this far into > the consequences of that portrayal. As I explained in my previous post, there are a number of time travelling theories out there, but most stem from two main beliefs... that time can be changed and in doing so, alternate universes are created OR that time can not be changed. My interpretation of the canon is that JKR is operating under Theory 2. I mean, she explains observations from the first perspective while we are experiencing the second perspective. If she was not operating under this theory, then what would be her point in discussing things, such as the footsteps in the corridor, the falling of the axe when we thought Buckbeak was killed, or Harry saving himself with the patronus? The important thing: NOTHING CHANGED during the dual telling of the events but our perspective of them. I'm not sure what canon evidence you have for believing that there was some other sequence of events that was altered, but I'd love to hear about it :) Just my thoughts... smilingator (who is now going to go do lesson plans... no more summer, school is starting soon!) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 23:09:40 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew, Snape, and the Unbreakable Vow: A thought experiment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050729230940.31811.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135608 --- lupinlore wrote: > A scene provided for your approval or contempt: Snape, Harry, and > Wormtail in confrontation. > > HARRY: How could you have done it? HOW? > SNAPE: If I had not killed Dumbledore, I would have died. > WORMTAIL: Then you should have died, as he would have died for > you. > > And thus the fall of Snape is the redemption of Peter. > > What think you? Well, personally, I'd throw up all over the book. For me, the main aspect of Pettigrew's character is his refusal to face the truth about himself. When he kept insisting in the Shrieking Shack that he had no choice, that he's weak and not strong like the other Marauders were, that there was nothing else he could have done - he wasn't lying in that he actually believed all that to be true. And since he believed that he had no choice he hasn't yet taken responsibility for betraying James and Lily. After all, if there was nothing he could have done differently, nothing's really his fault, right? The first step towards redemption or atonement for just about anything is an acknowledgement that you have done wrong and want to make up for it, as much as possible. I see no sign yet that Peter has achieved that level of self-knowledge. Pettigrew's coasts as much as possible and gets by with doing as little as he can get away with. Making up to more powerful people is a talent he does have in spades. I can see Pettigrew making a calculation that Harry's going to come out on top and trying to help him during the Final Confrontation With Voldemort; it doesn't really work and Pettigrew gets killed but it does allow Harry to save himself. But Snape will probably be dead by that point. Magda (who thinks Pettigrew won't be redeemed because he doesn't see the percentage in it for himself) ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 23:12:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:12:49 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135609 Julie wrote: "According to JKR's interview with Mugglenet/TLC, she is writing according to a genre." Del replies: Agreed, but according to the same interview she also incorporates what she feels needs to be there: "MA: How much fun did you have with the romance in this book? JKR: Oh, loads. Doesn't it show? MA: Yes. JKR: There's a theory - this applies to detective novels, and then Harry, which is not really a detective novel, but it feels like one sometimes ? that you should not have romantic intrigue in a detective book. Dorothy L. Sayers, who is queen of the genre said ? and then broke her own rule, but said ? that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people's motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it's so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance?" Emerson and Melissa were apparently satisfied with the romance, but I'm not. I can't be satisfied with a romance that happens *entirely* off-screen. Especially not when on the other hand we see Ron and Lavender snogging every 5 pages during half the book (or so). ---- Salit wrote (post 135596): "I think it is very clear that Snape is dedicated to protecting Harry from harm, odd as it may be. I thought the most bizzare comment from him was "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!" when Harry tried to Crucio him after he (Snape) has just used a much worse Unforgivable Curse on DD." Del replies: My husband has got the book so I can't check right now (he's *finally* read DD's death, by the way, hurrah!!), but I seem to remember that Snape further explains that Harry doesn't have what it takes, or something to that effect. This reminds me strongly of Bella's tauntings at the end of OoP, which were pointedly not anything close to a compliment or an encouragement or anything positive. Salit wrote: "As for why he decided to kill DD, I am guessing he was obligated to by his oath in the beginning of the book, but who knows..." Del replies: My ranting was based on the premise that Snape had NO such obligation, that he killed DD either because he is truly a DE and always was, or because he was always serving only himself. It is in *that* case that I would be hugely disappointed with DD's murder at the hands of Snape. Salit wrote: "But that's again has been the theme of the books - as soon as Harry gets close to a protective adult, he is taken out of the picture - his parents were murdered, Sirius was murdered, DD was murdered..." Del replies: Well, yes, and that's getting old in my book. I mean, once is OK, twice is really sad, but three times borders on ridicule *for me*, especially when it happens in two books in a row! If it were people he'd known for years, it would be different, but here the pattern is always the same: Harry enjoys somebody's company for a few months, and then they get killed. It's getting old really fast, for me. Salit wrote: "I think Snape is the most complex and interesting character in the serie, and I am sure that book 7 will have an excellent reason for both DD's trust and Snape's seeming treachery." Del replies: Yes, but what if it *doesn't*? See, THAT is what I am afraid of: that Snape will be shown to be a very simple character, who either always worked for LV or simply always played both sides for his own advantage, and in both cases DD was simply *wrong* to trust him. I'm afraid that we might discover that DD had NO good reason to trust Snape, that he did it only because he believed in giving second chances. I'm afraid to discover that Snape is nowhere as complex as I think he is, and that DD's death is exactly what it looks like: Snape finally either showing his true colours or choosing his side. Del From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 23:44:35 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:44:35 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135610 > As we learn in the Pensieve scene of Karkaroff's hearing in GoF, > Snape has faced danger from the time he first became Dumbledore's > spy before he began teaching at Hogwarts and before the Potters > died. Because I like to play Devil's Advocate, and because the possibility has been *eminently* opened up by the events of this book: Is it not possible that Snape's defection to the light side was, at least originally, a plant on the part of Voldemort? Voldemort sends Snape to play the penitent to Dumbledore; Dumbledore is then, so he thinks, in possession of a spy--and one who he thinks is operating at great risk. However, if this is a setup, Snape is really not risking himself vis-a-vis Voldemort--at least not as much as we've all assumed. Everything depends upon the level of trust which we are willing to place unreservedly in Dumbledore's hands as to discerning motives and loyalties. I would submit that now is the time to go back and look through at everything that we've been *assuming* about the relationship between these characters. Unless one wants to play the "Snape is acting all the time" card along with the "Dumbledore and Snape are totally in cahoots" card, a lot of friction between the characters makes a lot more sense, now. I think, when all is said and done, JKR is far less sneaky than we've been giving her credit for. I'm wary of saying that the plot will work on the same mechanics as the romances, but we've seen where overarguing little things got those lines of thought. What she's done is given us the rope and watched as we neatly knot it to hang ourselves with; such is the beauty of it all. -Nora wonders about the possible overextensions of Legilimency as a tool to communicate specific requests/commands, as well From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 30 00:05:29 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:05:29 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies: [Regarding Snape's comment to Harry "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!"] > I seem to remember that > Snape further explains that Harry doesn't have what it takes, or > something to that effect. This reminds me strongly of Bella's > tauntings at the end of OoP, which were pointedly not anything close > to a compliment or an encouragement or anything positive. Salit again: There is a big difference between the unbalanced Bellatrix and the calculating Snape. The only times that Snape's words are not well thought out is when Harry gets him really angry. During his duel with Harry, he is clearly the stronger, easily blocks everything Harry throws at him and finally disarms him without effort. Yet he never attacks Harry until he gets mad at him calling him coward, and then it is something on the order of a slap on the face. He prevents other Death Eaters from harming Harry. Snape's remark that Harry does not have what it takes to use an Unforgivable Curse (all too true) sounds very much like his usual taunting. In fact, I thought the whole duel scene remarkably similar to the occlumency lessons, because Snape was using it for teaching Harry and instructing him... But the key phrase remains "No Unforgivable Curses from you Potter". He could have phrased it as "You don't have it in you to do Unforgivable Curses" or something like that if he wanted to taunt Harry, but instead he used his "teacher voice" that to me sounded oddly protective... > Del replies: > My ranting was based on the premise that Snape had NO such obligation, > that he killed DD either because he is truly a DE and always was, or > because he was always serving only himself. It is in *that* case that > I would be hugely disappointed with DD's murder at the hands of Snape. I am pretty sure that was not the case. I think the key scene of the book was the one in chapter 2 where Snape makes the Unbreakable Oath to Narcissa. Throughout the entire book we see Snape repeatedly trying to get Malfoy to tell him what he had to do and fails. Through the book Snape is working very hard at helping Malfoy accomplish the the task even though he does not know what it is. In the end, he does it for Malfoy when it is clear he can't do it - just as he had sworn to do, but he certainly does not look happy at the accomplishment - I believe the revulsion on his face was for himself. > Del replies: [Regarding Harry losing every person he is close to] > Well, yes, and that's getting old in my book. I mean, once is OK, > twice is really sad, but three times borders on ridicule *for me*, > especially when it happens in two books in a row! If it were people > he'd known for years, it would be different, but here the pattern is > always the same: Harry enjoys somebody's company for a few months, and > then they get killed. It's getting old really fast, for me. Well, the whole premise of the serie is about choice and prophecy. Without losing his mentors, Harry will not grow up to make the choices for himself to do what the prophecy suggested he would do: 1. If his parents were not killed, Harry would never have developed as he was or had his powers or his desire to destroy Voldemort. 2. If Sirius had not died, Harry would still latch on to him as a mentor when it was necessary for him to outgrow him. Sirius was too damaged and immature to serve as a mentor, and his personal conflict with Snape would have detracted from the Harry/Snape conflicts. 3. DD had to die for the story to make sense. Otherwise, why is it Harry and not DD the most qualified wizard to face Voldemort? > Del replies: > Yes, but what if it *doesn't*? See, THAT is what I am afraid of: that > Snape will be shown to be a very simple character, who either always > worked for LV or simply always played both sides for his own > advantage, and in both cases DD was simply *wrong* to trust him. I doubt it. DD's trust in Snape was mentioned repeatedly in all the books. DD has also been represented as the ultimate Wise Man. Portraying him as a fool and a dup in the end simply does not match the spirit of the books. Another point that is repeatedly emphasized in the books is how old DD is and that he does not fear death. I believe that DD had a good reason to trust Snape, but it had nothing to do with his own personal welfare, rather Harry's. JKR said there were enough clues in HBP for readers to get a good idea on what will happen in book 7. My own guess is that Snape made another Unbreakable oath to protect Harry. This would fully explain why DD trusted him, especially as Snape is the only one who has heard part of the prophecy, aside from Harry (and I doubt Snape knows that Harry heard it). However, Snape never made any promises to protect DD, so killing him did not contradict either one of the two oaths... Whether or not the above will happen, I am sure it was not be a trite reason that led DD to place such trust in Snape. I have faith in JKR to have an ending that is at the same quality level as the other books have been. Salit From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 00:07:55 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:07:55 -0000 Subject: Interesting Snape quote from HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135612 Snape Quote: "The Dark Arts are many, varied, ever-changing and eternal. Fighting them is like fighting a many-headed monster, which, each time a neck is severed, sprouts a head even fiercer and cleverer than before. You are fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible." vmonte: You think he might be talking about himself? Vivian From golden_faile at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 00:10:23 2005 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden_faile) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:10:23 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nocobuzz" wrote: > SSSusan wrote: > > Am I the only one who believes that DD was already just about dead by the time Snape arrived on the tower? Laila wrote: No... Dumbledore was on his last leg. Time was of the Essence and with all of the delaying he was going to die anyway. He needed Immediate attention. I believe that one look told Severus what he needed to know. SSSusan wrote: > > I believe, by the time Snape arrived, DD knew he was a goner. > > It's a time of war and the plan must go forward. If the leader is > on his way out, the soldier must abide by the final request. > Laila wrote: > As much as I dislike Snape ( and boy do I dislike him!), I was truly devastated by his betrayal. He was like an old cantankerous family member abrasive, hirrible, nasty, but you know they will never harm you. I desperately want to believe that he will reddem himself at some point. The only thing that gives me reservations about this theory was Dumbledore's speech about how when he does make a mistake it tends to be monumental... Laila > From mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 22:02:25 2005 From: mjf152 at yahoo.co.uk (Maureen) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:02:25 +0100 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <42EAA02C.000001.03524@D33LDD51> References: <42EAA02C.000001.03524@D33LDD51> Message-ID: <42EAA771.7090306@yahoo.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 135614 Auntydle asks: > I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just > discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the > number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to > follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of > her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the > number of the platform? ...just wondering. > You know, I never once thought Mrs Weasley was asking the platform because she didn't know it herself. Asking "What's the platform?" to me sounded like a way of keeping the kids' interest and making them feel involved I can remember my mum using a similar tactic when I was Ginny's (PS) age! Maureen From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Fri Jul 29 23:29:40 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:29:40 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Milz wrote: > "It takes REAL intelligence to be able to think outside of the box > with the knowledge base and tools available." > > > >Del wrote: > >Yes, but FIRST they had to LEARN that knowledge! Can't you see that >Hermione is only in the *learning phase* for now? She is learning >everything she can, because this time in her life is the perfect time >to do that. She is at school, she's got a library available, she's >got professors to ask questions to, and all this extra studying can >even help in her primary occupation: school work. She is at Hogwarts >to STUDY, NOT to invent. But once she's learned all she can, I really >see no sign that she won't be able to apply all that knowledge >creatively in whatever field she chooses to work in. > Gatta: I'm with Del on this one. Hermione is smart enough to know that she needs a foundation before she can build. Thinking outside the box is all very well, but first you have to have a box to think outside of. I've worked with thinking-outside-the-box exponents who still give me nightmares, like the gal who designed a layout for our online documentation that customers called up and complained about because it gave them splitting headaches; she also rewrote our principal reference manual so that you had to know what a function did before you could look it up to find out what it did... (and customers called and complained about that too). Please, all you witches and wizards out there--before you start exploring ways of doing it better, learn how to do it right! From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 23:52:53 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:52:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135616 pan: > The goal of faking DD's death would be three fold. > I really want to believe that DD's death is fake and you present some excellent arguments in favour of this. However I read in one of JK Rowling's interviews that she felt 'really upset'' after writing the ending of HBP. This does not bode well - why would she feel upset if she knew DD's death was not for real? Perhaps JK Rowling just says this to make us think DD is really dead, but somehow I fear it may be wishful thinking. I just hope I am wrong and that DD turns up alive and well in book 7. Auria From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 30 00:07:09 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:07:09 -0000 Subject: Petunia mystery (new idea?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135617 --- > A friend of mine is convinced it was Snape, what with all the > possible Snape-Lily connections popping up. In HBP, Professor > Slughorn keeps going on about how great Lily was at potions, > Snape's obvious forte. Could they have connected over their mutaul > talent? > Or could Snape have admired Lily from afar for her talent at > potions. > Also, in Snapes Worst Memory(OotP), Lily tries to help Snape. > Snape, obviously embarrassed and angry calls Lily a mudblood. But > did he really mean it? After all, we now know Snape is a half-blood himself. > > I've never believed the Snape/Lily connection before, but I must say I'm becoming convinced. Could Petunia have overheard Snape and Lily talking at Hogwarts? Or could Snape have ever visited the Evans home? > Now that REALLY makes me think! > > > Adriene Something just occurred to me.....do you think that the notes that Snape made in his potions textbook under his 'Half Blood prince' guise were really copied from Lily's alterations and improvements to the recipes that Snape noted whilst they were in class at the same time? Perhaps he admired her abilities and tried to imitate them?? If so I don't know how this fits into the plot at all but it could be relevant in his attitude to Harry - that Snape thinks Harry doesn't match his mother's talent. Thoughts anyone?? Auria From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 30 00:13:24 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:13:24 -0000 Subject: Timeturner question - comments anyone? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135618 Does anyone know what happened to Hermione's timeturner which she had throughout PoA? As far as I remember it was never explained whether she still has possession of it. If she does then why have they never thought to use it to reverse time and save Sirius in GoF and later perhaps to 'save' Dumbledore?? I know that the timeturners in the MoM were all destroyed at the end of OotP but Hermione's one may still have been at Hogwarts. A possible hole in the plot me thinks! Auria From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 00:53:01 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Timeturner question - comments anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050730005301.54921.qmail@web53112.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135619 Auria wrote: Does anyone know what happened to Hermione's timeturner which she had throughout PoA? Juli: She gave it back to McGonadall. At the end of PoA she tells Harry and Ron that she returned the Time Turner, and she quit Muggle Studies, that it was too much. I don't have the exact quote, but it's at the very end. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 30 00:20:26 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:20:26 -0000 Subject: Astronomy Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135620 alana: > The fact that there are 2 teachers teaching Divination (the > Centaur and Prof Trwelany,) one having been the speaker of the > prophesy and the other having helped DD > in some mysterious way that got him thrown out of the forrest is > something i'd like to futher research. Now this theory is only > interesting if you think Firenze got kicked out of his herd for doing > something other than teaching at the school. The Centaurs > obviously held no ill will against DD since they gave him a high > salute at the funeral. Is it crazy to think that several teachers > (also members of the Order) are envolved in a fake death for DD? It could be possible that DD consulted Firenze about the prophesy or perhaps for information on LV you mean? If so then yes I think it could be relevant. Afterall DD always has good motives behind doing seemingly minor actions, so his reason for employing Firenze to teach at Hogwarts could be so that he could also use Firenze as a true Seer (since Trelawny's abilities seem to be very sporadic out of her control). It may even be possible that Firenze advised DD on LV's horcruxes and where to find them, which could explain how DD knew that on horcrux was in the cave. Auria From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 01:12:35 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:12:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Aslan, Gandalf, and Obi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135621 > Magica wrote: > > I think there are many similarities between the death of DD and > > Aslan, the great lion of Narnia, who is killed by the evil witch > Trish. > I couldn't agree more. In fact, as a member of Narnia and LOTR > boards, HP comes up a lot there as well. Mostly with folks saying > that JKR stole storyline but there I do not agree. I think it is > just sour grapes on the popularity of HP. Personally, I think that > JKR does follow a model for these stories as you all know. So, > looking at the model of the top 3 SciFi/Fantasy series w/o HP: > > Mentor:Hero:Mentor Chooses to Die IN FRONT OF HERO to make hero > stronger: Mentor comes 'back from dead' in some way:: > > Chronicals of Narnia:LWW > Aslan:Susan/Lucy:Killed at stone table in front of S/L:Returned from > dead to win the fight against the white witch . Some would say more > powerful and since there are all those Christian paralels I would > say probably. > > LOTR > Gandalf:Fellowship(Frodo): Killed fighting the meany balrog in front > of fellowship (or at least sucked away right?): Returned to win the > fight against sauron but in White form, much more stronger magic. > > Star Wars > ObiWon Kenobi:Luke: Killed by Darth Vadar in front of Luke (some say > he waited for Luke) : Returned as a voice of the force to help Luke > at all times so he could defeat the Dark Side. > --this one is my husbands, but it sure fits too! > > So now we have three ways to approach HP > > Dumbledore:Harry Potter: Killed by Snape with HP in a frozen state > as to witness the event: Returns or not in some way > > What are the choices: > 1) Rises from dead : I don't believe JKR would do this, too > associated with dark magic now. > 2) Nothing, DD is gone, a distant memory and anyway, he didn't > choose to die he JUST was ak'd > 3) DD more powerfully speaks to Harry in certain ways: Through > portrait, through letters, through his need to avenge his death > along with his parents...I don't know. Valky: I too agree with you both. just a small aside on Obi Wan Kenobi: The reason he was able to return stronger and as the voice of the force for Luke, is revealed at the end of episode three - He is instructed by 'his' Mentor Qui Gong Jin while he is alone on Tatooine on afterlife immortality and returning from the netherverse (one suspects he didn't only visit Luke after his death but perhaps Anikin/Vader as well) .. All very interesting actually in terms of HBP and Dumbledore's Immortality and the Adventure beyond death are an important theme in HBP and it appears from a few small hints also relevant to DD's death. I don't think he will rise from the dead exactly, but his afterlife power is quite possibly foreshadowed by some of the images that surround his death and his burial in HBP. Now I'm going to talk a little Alchemy, so those who would prefer I would't you can turn away or you can add any other generic brand of wisdom or construe it otherwise religiously, it will work... lol There is an Alchemical proces known as sublimatio, this process is supposed by the alchemist to release the spirit hidden within the matter. It is called the expulsion of the Quicksilver. Johnes Ruta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A low substance is translated into a higher substance by an ascending movement: Earth is transformed into Air; a fixed body is volitatized; that which is *inferus* into that which is *superus*. The sublimate flies up from earth, and is transported to heaven. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The description of sublimatio rings an enourmous bell about HBP. First we have the *inferi* (inferus) which are ..shudder.. the dead raised and walking, and then we have the Phoenix of Dumbledore (superus) flying up from his tomb straight towards the sky. In Alchemical Sublimatio they are the same thing, inferis the lower form of the spirit raised from matter, and superus the higher form. So if we take these to be symbols of this nature then we have already witnessed Dumbledore's resurrection in the higher form. But how he will reach Harry from his netherverse is anybody's guess, really. One thing that might be relevant is the scene in POA the movie, which some thought to be one of the scenes tht gave JKR shivers because of it's portends, the scene when Sirius tells Harry that the ones we love never leave us and are always in our heart. This could mean that resurrected Dumbledore will come directly through Harry himself, from Harry's heart. > > > Magica also said > > How do these magical portraits work, has anyone discussed this > > before? Must they be painted by a special artist while the person > > is still alive, maybe leaving some of his or hers sole in the > > portrait through a mini-horcrux? > > Me again: > I don't think it is a mini-horcrux persay because Horcruxes don't > seem to be 'okay' magic. They are not even spoken of. But there is > something to the portraits. I don't think they are exactly 'painted' > either, Dumbledores appeared in his office rather quickly. But they > do have thoughts, feelings etc. and CAN deliver messages unlike a > photograph. Also, not everyone has a painting. I know this was > talked about years ago on this board but I don't know what JKR has > said on it. Anyone?? > > Valky: The Portraits are, as I understand what JKR has said about them, merely a partial representation of the wizard captured in print. According to JKR they simply repeat catchphrases and represent a version of the subject wizard. They have no actual link or real time connection to the subject wizard. I expect Dumbledores portrait was created and placed by a magical brush not dissimilar from the magical quill that records the names of every wizard child born. Dumbledores portrait will very likely be a fountain of wonderful wisdom and Harry may consult it, but I believe any wisdom from the portrait will be relatively generic and not much more than a reminder of the principles that Dumbledore has already tried to pass on to Harry. Portrait!DD, I believe, will be of much greater use to MacGonagall than Harry. Valky From maidne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 01:19:24 2005 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:19:24 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: <42EAA02C.000001.03524@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Auntydle asks: > > I know it's very late in the game to bring this up, but I only just > discovered this website. Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the > number of the platfor in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to > follow them to find the platform, but, with Ron being the fourth of > her children to attend Hogwarts, why didn't she already know the > number of the platform? ...just wondering. > > > Donna Replies: > > Probably confusion and frustration trying to get 3 very active boys and > Percy packed, organized, fed, dressed, herded into one spot, > plus worry about finances and being pressed for time. BTW, Ron > makes number 6 son to attend Hogwarts - Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, George, and Ron. I'm surprised the woman is sane at this time of year. Seems to me Percy is the only one that isn't "adventuresome". > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Maybe there are also other wizarding trains from other platforms. We know they have mass transportation via the Knight Bus. Maybe you could also take a train from platform 13 1/2 or something. Susan From 4nerds at eskimo.com Sat Jul 30 00:19:34 2005 From: 4nerds at eskimo.com (jewal1) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:19:34 -0000 Subject: Faking Sirius' Death ... again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135623 Entropy wrote: > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly > imagine ... nobody would be surprised that you had died in your > attempt to kill me..." (HBP, ch. 27) > > So, I think we can safely assume that the Order *does* have the means > to protect others by faking their death, then sending them away or > disguising them so well that they cannot be detected. Who was that > long-haired Weird Sister at Dumbledore's funeral, anyway... You know something very interesting... (you may have already heard this). The UK version does not say the line "He cannot Kill you if you are already dead." I own both copies and it is true, the line is absent in the UK version. Some have speculated that they edited it out and didn't edit it out of the US version for some reason. It is a VERY interesting line though. ESPECIALLY since it is in one book and not another. Perhaps they thought it would reveal too much. My first post by the way! Hi! and BYE! Jewal From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 01:35:56 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:35:56 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135624 > Gatta: > > I'm with Del on this one. Hermione is smart enough to know that she > needs a foundation before she can build. No she isn't. She proved that with SPEW. She just jumped into the middle of trying to fix a problem without understanding it. Thinking outside the box is > all very well, but first you have to have a box to think outside of. True. But I think that Hermione generally lacks the imagination to be an inventor. She is technically proficient with magic but lacks the creative spark to really push the bounderies of anything. She is a smart, but conventional thinker. Slavery is wrong in the muggle world so it must be wrong in the magical world. she doesn't stop to think that maybe elves work under different rules than people do. Her limitations in the social arena I think indicate the problems that she would have in the academic one. If she wants to make a name for herself with magic she should team up with someone like Luna, someone who is going to seek to push boundries that Hermione would never consider. Then Hermione's great technical skills would shine. phoenixgod2000 From joseph at kirtland.com Sat Jul 30 01:10:59 2005 From: joseph at kirtland.com (Joe Bento) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:10:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135625 Auria: > I really want to believe that DD's death is fake and you present some > excellent arguments in favour of this. > However I read in one of JK Rowling's interviews that she felt 'really > upset'' after writing the ending of HBP. This does not bode well - why > would she feel upset if she knew DD's death was not for real? > Perhaps JK Rowling just says this to make us think DD is really dead, > but somehow I fear it may be wishful thinking. I just hope I am wrong > and that DD turns up alive and well in book 7. I'll admit to being very disturbed at Dumbledore's death. I'm still in the camp that wants to believe that Snape is fighting for the right side. I would somehow be very disappointed if Dumbledore was resurrected in book 7. Dead people do not return to life - at least not on an earthly plane. Dumbledore's portrait is now in his headmaster's office. This in itself seems to confirm the fact he is indeed dead. The description of DD's body as though he were sleeping, were it not for the twisted limbs also confirms the death in my mind. I believe DD is indeed dead, and if he is to offer any further counsel, I believe it will be through his portrait. The question that enters my mind is if Snape actually used the AK incantation. We learned more about silent incantations in the HBP, and Snape could have easily used a different spell, but spoke the AK to appease those in audience around him. This thought comes again from the description of DD's body - he apparently did not die in terror or with a frozen look of terror as seems the case with AK. Joe From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Sat Jul 30 01:46:17 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:46:17 -0000 Subject: Another Take on "Snivellus" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135626 In Chapter II of *The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, the detective, Grant, and his surgeon are discussing a portrait of Richard III that Grant is pondering over: "When I showed you the portrait," Grant said, "before you knew who it was, did you think of villainy?" "No," said the surgeon, "no, I thought of illness." I can't help wondering if Snape's unhappy childhood crippled him physically as well as emotionally. His complexion is described as "sallow" (SS/PP, Ch. 7), and in OotP, Ch. 28, he has "skinny, pallid legs". Perhaps childhood neglect and poverty left him with a weakness toward some frequent or chronic illness (asthma? something triggered by stress or unhappiness?) that is the source of the Marauders' cruel nickname. Poor health might also explain why, although Snape is the more skillful wizard, James is physically quicker and therefore able to get the jump on him. I have been a teacher long enough, and a student recently enough, to remember how nasty young chilcren (and not-so-young children who should know better) can be to a classmate who is perceived as somehow "defective". --Gatta From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 01:19:38 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050730011938.86869.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135627 Janeway: > It seems to me like the basic problem with JKR's portrayal of Harry and Ginny's relationship is that she treats it like a MYSTERY, using "clues", rather than like a ROMANCE, exploring feelings. Romance is all about mystery and obsession and frustrated desire, and finally release and revelation. Lynda says: JKR is not writing romance novels. What she is writing is fantasy, mystery, adventure. And they are not primarily geared for adults, but children, although she does have a large adult fanbase. Knowing that is perhaps why I did not pick up on a "romance" between Sirius and Remus. Especially after Tonks entered the books. Lynda From saidicam29 at verizon.net Sat Jul 30 01:41:27 2005 From: saidicam29 at verizon.net (saidicam29) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:41:27 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135628 Phoenixgod: > I can think of at least one reason. Snape is smart enough to have > put together the prophecy from what little he heard the same way Ron > and Hermione did. He might want to keep Harry alive to eventually > take down Voldemort, trusting the prophecy to give Harry the power, > so that Snape can step into the power vacumn left behind. With DD > and Voldemort dead, Snape would have a lot of room to play Dark > Lord. Playing both sides basically. That's a possibility, but as I've read the books I honestly never got the impression Snape wanted, or was the type, to be the head of anything. He doesn't seem like a particularly ambitious person to me. If this is his plan, then he is indeed an extraordinarily cunning man to fool every person he has had contact with all these years, including the two most powerful wizards of the time. Saidicam29 From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 02:09:12 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:09:12 -0000 Subject: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tbernhard2000" wrote: > > No wonder Mr. Snape seems more fully and completely himself when > parrying with Cissy and Bella at Spinners End. No air of unspoken > distrust here. Nope. Here everything is out in the open. What a relief > to be in a space where Mr. Snape doesn't have to hide his past, or > downplay it, or act in such a way that it is never brought into > question. Playtime is over, folks. He talks pretty clearly about his > work at Hogwarts. Was never this clear at Hogwarts about his role in > the DE, that's for sure. > Now me: The first time I read Spinners End, I had the distinct impression that "Mr." Snape didn't really know the plan to have Draco kill Dumbledore and he was manipulating Narcissa into giving him the information after using a boatload of projection onto Bellatrix (in RL, projection is a favorite of paranoids, hmmm). Narcissa gives a large part of it away when she tells him she has no one else to turn to, Lucius being in jail. Snape is smart enough to know that it must concern Draco. pg. 33 AE HBP "You know about the plan?" said Bellatrix, her fleeting expression of satisfaction replaced by a look of outrage... "Certainly," said Snape,"but what do you require, Narcissa? If you are imagining that I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I am afraid there is no hope, none at all." Never in the entire chapter does Snape or the two sisters say what the plan is, indeed, I think most readers have felt it was to kill Harry. On page 34, Snape leads Narcissa towards this conclusion: "Then I am right! He has chosen Draco for revenge!" Was Snape able to take the Unbreakable Vow and break it because he really didn't know what the entire plan was--sort of like having his fingers crossed behind his back? Or is it proof that Dumbledore is truly dead because otherwise Snape would be the one who died for failure to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow? pg. 36 "And, should it prove necessary, if it seems that Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform..." "I will," said Snape. Since Snape is still alive, he either killed Dumbledore, or he faked his way through the Unbreakable Vow. I think it has to be either one or the other, but I have been wrong before! Thoughts? From AllieS426 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 02:32:42 2005 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:32:42 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail / next deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: *****Yes, but what if it *doesn't*? See, THAT is what I am afraid of: that Snape will be shown to be a very simple character, who either always worked for LV or simply always played both sides for his own advantage, and in both cases DD was simply *wrong* to trust him. I'm afraid that we might discover that DD had NO good reason to trust Snape, that he did it only because he believed in giving second chances. I'm afraid to discover that Snape is nowhere as complex as I think he is, and that DD's death is exactly what it looks like: Snape finally either showing his true colours or choosing his side. ********* I just can't imagine Dumbledore being SO WRONG about Snape. He met Tom Riddle at the age of 11 and he knew - KNEW! - even then that this was not a person to be trusted. So after knowing Snape for how many years now, he could be so wrong as to not realize that this was a person capable of murdering him??? That would be SO disappointing. As an aside - of course he had to be the one to die. Nobody else would make sense at this point. The hero goes on alone. But which major character will die in the next book? I came to the awful realization today that in addition to Snape (a given, in my opinion, regardless of which side he's on) it's going to have to be one of the children. Not Ron or Hermione, please, please!! Maybe a more minor character like Luna or Neville? :( This scares me because I was right about the deaths in OOtp and HBP.... Allie (and if it's Ron, the wrath and grief of the Potter fans will be Greater and More Terrible than Ever it Was...) From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Sat Jul 30 02:33:23 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:33:23 -0000 Subject: Sluggy, drunk, told Snape about the chosen one Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135631 So here's a scenario. Snape has gone to the potions room to look for that missing potions textbook - it's "on his mind". Anyway, Sluggy isnt' there. He puts two and two together and thinks of the venom. He finds, in Hagrid's hut, the two sleepers. Sluggy wakes. "Severus, the most extraordinary thing. Potter told me he was the chosen one. He said he's the one who has to kill the Dark Lord." "Potter is always full of fanciful stories, Horace. Anyway, I was looking for Mr. Potter, but I see he was here and has left. Goodnight." Sluggy duly passes out again, and will forget the incident. Remember that Potter's "luck" was running out as he made it to the castle. So now, when Snape sees Albus on the tower, the next time he sees him, you will note, he knows this bit has been kept from him. He is enraged. He's never been trusted. It was all just crap. dan From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Sat Jul 30 01:19:05 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:19:05 -0000 Subject: What in Snape's name? WAS: Re: Prophecy/ Wizarding&MugglePlaces - FlyingFordAnglia - Funeral/ Snape/ Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135632 Catlady wrote: > Yes, but 'sneap' is 'rebuke': > http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=sneap Snape's name has interesting resonances too: "snip" (as in "snippy") and "snap" (as in "snappish"), as well as "snipe", which he does at his students all the time; also "snake", which suggests the qualities of subtlety and coldness (and poison--no accident that he's the Potions Master), and shich ties into the whole Slytherin connection. (Apologies if I'm reinventing the wheel. I searched but did not find.) --Gatta From dlatchman at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 02:23:01 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:23:01 -0400 Subject: Hogwarts protection spells In-Reply-To: <008e01c5945b$1a9abb10$0201a8c0@bettysue> References: <1d5.40cedb42.30191a08@aol.com> <008e01c5945b$1a9abb10$0201a8c0@bettysue> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135633 Hogwarts is known to be a vast store of magical energies, probably one of the reasons Voldemort wanted to teach in the school. I doubt that these energies just dissipate after every headmaster's death. Plus, as much as most of us are attached to old Dumbledore the guy was just a headmaster. Just because he died doesn't mean Hogwarts will crumble too. The school is much bigger than any one person. There is a principle behind which the school stands forand that is much bigger than Dumbledore. So I think that the spells that protect the castle and its grounds will be around for a long time to come. David L. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 02:44:56 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:44:56 -0000 Subject: Human!Snape Fill in the Blanks in HBP Spinners End first.. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135634 HI all, I just wanted to get some opinions running on odd occasional ambiguous glimpses we get of Snapes humanity in HBP. I know a fair few of these little cracks in the shell haven't been discussed in depth yet, so I ill list them and ask you if you could fill in the blanks, starting with Spinners End. Narcissa began to cry in earnest, gazing beseechingly all the while at Snape. 'That's because he is sixteen and has no idea what lies in store! Why, Severus? Why my son? It is too dangerous! This is vengeance for Lucius mistake, I know it!' Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he could not pretend not to hear her. 'That's why he's chosen Draco, isn't it?' she persisted. 'To punish Lucius?' 'If Draco succeeds,' said Snape still looking away from her, 'he will be honoured above all opthers.' There are three things in this passage that interest me the most. Firstly Narcissa is gazing beseechingly at Snape. With 'gazing' being the popular supposed inference for Legilimency. Is it possible that here we are also seeing an effort by Narcissa to extract from Snape the knowledge of whether he cares for her plea? This possibilty is later backed in the passage when Snape deliberately loses eye contact with her. Snape the superb Occlumens, unable to block his feelings for a weeping desperate friend? hmm what feelings are they exactly then, his affection for Draco and Narcissa? his faith in that Dumbledore would never let Draco die? his knowledge of Voldemorts plan? What is he hiding here that is so emotional to him he can't Occlumens block her and has to look away? The last thing that interests me in this passage is the words from Snape. They are crafted words. The right words. The words of a faithful DE. But wait.. Why can't Snape look at her while he is saying them? They are the right words. If he truly believes this, then... I don't know about you, but this particular line throws an "anvil sized" question mark over Snapes faith in Voldemort and the DE creed. It's hard, impossible even, to imagine that Severus believes what he is saying. This is a very NotCOld!Snape, a Snape unable to contain the huge emotions inside him a Snape who isn't for a minute able to truly pretend that Draco's honour before Voldemort is of any consequence, even though he is able to say it. One more interesting thing in the Spinners End Chapter: 'If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?' 'The Unbreakable Vow?' Snape's exression was blank, unreadable.... The blank unreadble expression of Snape when he is faced with Narcissa's surprise request.. Now *there's* a fill in the blank.. What were Snape's feelings here? Clearly he was not so wrought with emotion as before, but was this Occlumency at it's most superb? The immediacy of the blank expression smacks of something that Severus has done many times before almost like a rehearsed and ready reaction. IMHO Snapes head may have been absolutely chock with plotting and considerations in this moment.. But what were they? What were the thoughts in Snapes head? Here's one option: He's realising he may be asked to kill Dumbledore.. The consequences of swearing to do this if he can are huge. He loses his post? he loses Dumbledore? He comprimises his position throughout the year? (a hard task) Is he imagining a way he can get out of the vow? Does he think of one? Is that why he fights with Dumbledore later in the year? Because Dumbledore won't help him to get off the hook by firing him or sending him on a mission in a distant place? Valky From dlatchman at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 02:42:50 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:42:50 -0400 Subject: How safe is Harry? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135635 I think we are all assuming that magic draws its power only from the caster and once the spell terminates it means the caster has died or cut off his energy supply to the spell. Dumbledore said that Harry is protected once his bloodline resides in the Dursley house. This could mean that once Dumbledore started the spell he set the spell up so that the spell's contuinance is dependent on Harry's blood relatives surviving and not on Dumbledore himslef keeping the spell going. So unless something happens to Petunia and Dudley then Harry's safety is not in jeopardy. It could also mean that all three are protected; Petunia, Dudley and Harry otherwise Voldemort could have his DEs take them both out to get at Harry but that is complete speculation on my part. We all know that Hogwarts is a vast store of magical energies. This could be one of the reasons that its protective spells arwe there for so long. David L. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 30 02:58:15 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:58:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pansophy2000" wrote: > Marianne: > > >I have to agree with Sherry on the question of the inadvisability of > >keeping Harry in the dark about whatever grand scheme Snape and DD > >supposedly came up with to cover this non-death. After all, that > >tactic blew up in their faces once before. pan: > Well, an easy answer to that is that Harry never mastered occulmency > and therefore if Harry knows DD is alive then there is a real risk > that Voldermort could also discover this. Marianne: I don't think it's as simple as that. We spent half of OoP agonizing over the Occlumency lessons, which, as DD told us in HBP, were a "fiasco." And, lo and behold, Occlumency for Harry is suddenly of no importance at all in HBP. Had this been of such grave importance, I'm sure Dumbledore could have spared an hour or two a week to teach Harry himself. However, my impression is that this is now a non-starter - Harry doesn't need this to protect himself from the invasions of Vmort. Why? Because Harry has the ability to love people, which is anethema to Vmort. Think of how Voldemort was summarily ejected from Harry in the ending of the battle at the MOM, when Vmort simply couldn't abide linking to a brain/person who could actually feel love, as Harry did for Sirius. pan: > The goal of faking DD's death would be three fold. One, Snape would > have increased status with Voldermort and the Death Eaters and hence > access to more information and oppertunities to assist the Order. Marianne: But, at this point the Order believes Snape has betrayed them. Harry may well be wrong in his assessment, but nevertheless, the Order knows DD trusted Snape on what appears to be the flimsy reason of remorse over the fate of James and Lily, and he, to their knowledge, has just killed DD. Pan: > Voldermort would likely come out of hiding and expose himself in > ways that he would not if DD was alive. Marianne: Would he? Why? He has a whole crowd of people that seem to be willing to do whatever he wishes. Why should he expose himself needlessly? Of course, he already exposed himself at the MOM at the end of OoP, when his bumbling DEs proved incapable of defeating a bunch of teenagers, so maybe you're right. You just can't get good help these days.... Pan: And thirdly death is the > perfect cover for DD to continue to his search for ways to destroy > Voldermort and protect Harry from behind the scenes. Marianne: And that's one part of my problem with this. DD continuing to control the story, dig out the information, direct the "hero", is old news at this point. Maybe you're right and this is what JKR has up her sleeve. If so, the last book could be called "Marianne's Cat and the Tomb of Voldemort." Harry would be as incidental as a piece of furniture. Harry is then no more than a tool in the hands of the grand master, Dumbledore. Pan: > The question is what advantage does DD's death have as a story > teller. Well, at least for me it makes me feel like Harry is our > last hope of destroying Voldermort, and therefore if he does it then > Harry will be all the more the hero. Marianne: Agreed, but, he will be the hero if DD has indeed bit the proverbial dust. If Dumbledore rises and again leads the way, then Harry is no more than the hammer DD needs to pound in that last nail in the coffin. Pan: > However IMO, this line of the story goes against many of the themes > we've seen thus far. For one, while Harry has escaped Voldermort > more than any other person, he has also had loads of help in each > book, not to mention some luck. > > Also, for me, if we are to believe that love will ultimately destroy > Voldermort, then isn't it a bitter pill to swallow that love's > siblings "trust" and "faith" in others would be the thing that kills > DD? Marianne: Well, not so bitter if you happen to be a fan of irony. Pan: > Frankly, given Harry's complete inability to handle even Snape, I > don't see how Harry can realistically handle Voldermort in the span > of a single book and I just don't see how it can be done with DD. > Even if Snape kills Voldermort, or makes it possible, no one would > believe that he didn't kill DD for his own advantage no matter what > he said or did. Marianne: I'm not sure where you're going with this. Harry can't handle Snape, so, thus, he can't handle an even more powerful wizard, Voldemort. Are you saying, that if DD doesn't come back to help Harry in some way, that if Harry defeats Vmort by himself you would not find this credible? And that the deed will fall to Snape, but no one will give him any credit because he's Snape? Pan: > One more thing, as a story-teller, Serius' death may have been > necessary for us to believe that DD could really be dead. Plus, > bringing DD back in some way does not seem as trite given that a > main character does in fact die in the series. Marianne: Well, if JKR's only reason to bump off Sirius is to make me believe that DD could also die, when she's really planning on bringing him back, then that's an incredibly stupid reason. Especially, if what you seem to suggest is some authorial sleight of hand: Sirius is killled off, so I'll believe it when DD is apparently killed. And, then, in Book 7, DD springs up alive? And, I'm supposed to be happy about this? I'd feel manipulated in the extreme. Pan: > In my mind, it is perfectly plausible that the the liquid Harry > forced Dumbledore to drink at the horocrux site was really a potion > devised by Dumbledore/Snape to put the drinker into suspended > animation for some period of time...enough time for a furneral and > such to take place. Snape triggers the final step of the potion with > a silent spell, feigns the forbidden curse, and leaves as if he has > killed DD. When DD awakes after a few days buried in the ground, he > simply appartates to the location of his choosing. Marianne: Well, in my mind, it's not plausible at all. So the RAB person did whatever to the potion in order to place the fake locket there. And then DD and Snape figured all that out, replaced the potion with some other potion, set up the scene so that DD and Harry would have their adventure, but it was all a hoax? So when DD blows back into Hogwarts in Book 7 Harry will be so happy to see him that he'll ignore the fact that he's once again been DD's toy? Sorry, not buying it. Pan: > Harry's inability to block Voldermort from his mind would mean that > he would have to be in the dark on the plan. Plus, Harry would > confirm to everyone (and believe) that Snape killed DD, as would the > Death Eaters to Voldermort, ensuring that Snape would be in good > position to help the order when the time comes and faciltate > Voldermort's false sense of invincibility. Marianne: See above. Voldemort's attempts to enter Harry's mind have been a moot point throughout HBP. And, again, after Harry's assertions in the hospital wing after DD's death (whether or not he's correct in his assumptions) lead to everyone's believing that Snape murdered DD. Pan: > To me at least, the plausiblity of the story becomes much harder > with DD dead than alive, and the overarching lesson that love is > greater than evil becomes blury at best. Marianne: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but if the final denoument of the story hinges on DD's reappearance as a living, functioning being, then the story falls to the level of soap opera for me. I don't understand why the idea that love is greater than evil hinges on DD showing up alive. I think Harry's task is to find the balance in his emotions. When he gives in to them totally, horrible things can happen (Sirius' death). But, without them, he'd be almost no better than Vmort. Or Snape. Harry has to be the one to find a way to channel his strengths, rein in his occasionally over- the-top emotional responses and ultimately defeat Voldemort. DD is not going to be the savior. Marianne > -pan From nickel313 at yahoo.com.au Sat Jul 30 02:49:34 2005 From: nickel313 at yahoo.com.au (nickel313) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:49:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Contribution to Deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135637 Ok - I have tried to read all the posts but there are just so many so my apologies if this has already been discussed. If it has, could someone please point me to the direction of the relevant posts. In Chapter 2 'Spinner's End', Snape makes the following comment: 'The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information that I have passed him on the order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, although I give you full credit for finishing him off.' My question is this: Is this just a lie that Snape told Bellatrix to try and convince her of what side he was on? Or did he really pass Voldemort information that led to these murders? For Emmeline's murder we don't really have any information to know how she was killed, so can't really make a decision based on that. Sirius' death we have a bit more information on. We know that Kreacher was the one who passed information on the relationship between Harry and Sirius. So, what information might Snape have passed? Did he tell Voldemort that Harry was actually having the visions about the corridor? Or did he tell Voldemort that Harry was not succeeding at Occlumency? Snape told Sirius to stay at Grimmauld Place when the Order went to the MOM to fight. Did he just say this because he knew that Sirius would not listen to him? Or was he trying to keep Sirius away from the danger? I still believe that Snape is on the 'Good Side' and I am hoping that this was just a lie that he told Narcissa and Bellatrix but would like other people's opinions on this... Thanks Nickel. From LisaGWilliams at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 02:54:41 2005 From: LisaGWilliams at gmail.com (Lisa Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:54:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: <1122607347.2044.29783.m23@yahoogroups.com> References: <1122607347.2044.29783.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <14262fbd05072919544a7a244a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135638 Kat Macfarlane writes: "Why is it that when we are shown Snape's memories (OotP, hb U.S. ed.), both when he is teaching Harry Occlumency (p. 592) and in the Pensieve (pp. 640-649), Snape appears "in the third person", as it were? That is, from the outside, even though it is Snape doing the remembering? Am I just strange? Don't most people remember themselves "in the first person", from the inside out?" Lisa responds: It doesn't appear that this has been answered yet, but I apologize if I have and it just isn't on this digest. ;0) In JKR's Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview of 7/16/05, she answered a question about the pensieve: she said that the memory in the pensieve is the scene as it factually occurred, unblemished by the person's bias. So (my translation here), while we remember something in a certain way, from our own perspective within the memory, when we actually put that memory in a pensieve, it shows the unbiased memory that anyone would have about that particular scene, therefore from a third-person point of view. Here's JKR's exact wording: MA: One of our Leaky ""Ask Jo"" poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the sixth book, but, ""Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?"" JKR: It''s reality. It''s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ES: I was dead wrong about that. JKR: Really? ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn''t make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able to look at things from someone else's point of view. MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive. ES: I want one of those! JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn''t it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It''s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere. Lisa/SassyMomOfThree From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 03:47:08 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:47:08 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts protection spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135639 David L.: Hogwarts is known to be a vast store of magical energies, probably one of the reasons Voldemort wanted to teach in the school. I doubt that these energies just dissipate after every headmaster's death. Plus, as much as most of us are attached to old Dumbledore the guy was just a headmaster. Just because he died doesn't mean Hogwarts will crumble too. The school is much bigger than any one person. There is a principle behind which the school stands for and that is much bigger than Dumbledore. So I think that the spells that protect the castle and its grounds will be around for a long time to come. Bookworm: (Scholastic HBP, Ch27, p583) "As they flew over the dark, twisting lane down which they had walked earlier, Harry heard, over the whistling of the night air in his ears, Dumbledore muttering in some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder when they flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle so they could enter at speed." I had a bunch of questions when I read this: What about the older protections? Were they not strong enough to hold against Voldemort? What were they, and what did Dumbledore add? Did Dumbledore reset the protections after they crossed the boundary? The last question concerns me the most, because I don't think he did. How vulnerable is Hogwarts now with just the older protection spells? A while ago, several of us had a debate on where the battle would be in book 6 and Jim argued that it would be at Hogwarts ? I owe you one, Jim :-) Does this mean the battle in book 7 will be someplace else? Or if it will be easier for the DEs and Voldemort to enter Hogwarts, will there be an all-out battle with the cast of thousands? After all, we haven't seen *all* of the Houses united yet. Does Harry need just a few from each House, or all the students at the school? Ravenclaw Bookworm From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 03:54:44 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:54:44 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"/Snape as coward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135640 > Alla: > But my guess that his [Snape's] cowardice would have more relevance > to more recent events. > Valky: How about the argument in the Forest, Alla? I would imagine the words "I don't want to do it anymore..." might be words from someone who is thinking he's being a coward, but for extenuating reasons.. Snape has just secretly made an Unbreakable Vow to kill the person he's arguing with, if he wants to do it, then why does he want to run? It's a cowards act to retreat, no? Yet Snape's intention to retreat is there.. He's being a coward, *recently*. Could this be the event you're looking for? From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Sat Jul 30 03:57:49 2005 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:57:49 -0000 Subject: Human!Snape Fill in the Blanks in HBP Spinners End first.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > ...... > > > One more interesting thing in the Spinners End Chapter: > > 'If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will > you make the Unbreakable Vow?' > 'The Unbreakable Vow?' Snape's exression was blank, unreadable.... > > The blank unreadble expression of Snape when he is faced with > Narcissa's surprise request.. Now *there's* a fill in the blank.. > What were Snape's feelings here? Clearly he was not so wrought with > emotion as before, but was this Occlumency at it's most superb? The > immediacy of the blank expression smacks of something that Severus has > done many times before almost like a rehearsed and ready reaction. > > IMHO Snapes head may have been absolutely chock with plotting and > considerations in this moment.. But what were they? What were the > thoughts in Snapes head? > > Here's one option: > He's realising he may be asked to kill Dumbledore.. The consequences > of swearing to do this if he can are huge. He loses his post? he loses > Dumbledore? He comprimises his position throughout the year? (a hard > task) Is he imagining a way he can get out of the vow? Does he think > of one? Is that why he fights with Dumbledore later in the year? > Because Dumbledore won't help him to get off the hook by firing him or > sending him on a mission in a distant place? > > Valky I wonder, always wonder, after reading HBP. Why, why did Snape agree to make Unbreakable Vows with Narcissa? Chapter 2 gave me an impression that Snape showed a great affection to Narcissa, understanding and kind enough to comfort her. Do anyone have a thought that Snape loved Narcissa so deeply that he agreed to Unbreakable Vows? even if it meant that he had to kill Dumbledore? I doubt about my interpretation, however, on the second thought. Snape, self-interest as he was, unlikely to foresake what he had at the moment because of a pure love. Killing Dumbledore meant he betrayed the whole wizarding population (which he wouldn't mind much though) and lost a favourable position as the right-hand man of two greatest wizard of the time (which was indeed a great loss). Thus, I come up to the idea that Narcissa must know some big secrets of Snape so that if Snape refused Narcissa's requests, she would have him feel sorry. But what were the "secrets"? Any ideas? Angel From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 04:51:23 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:51:23 -0000 Subject: Possible reason for giving Snape the job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135642 Kelly wrote: > > Missy, I had thought about that as well, but I think there must be > more to it than that. After all, Dumbledore was Dumbledore. He could have forced Snape to take Harry or even tutored him in potions. There must be another reason. My real question is why did Jo make Snape the DADA teacher? What was her reason for writing the story this way? After all, she could have had Harry scrape an O in Potions. > > Kelly, who never wanted to believe Snape was ESE!, but now can't think about him without feeling angry. Carol responds: Here's a Good!Snape DADA theory. Maybe it will help you to regain your faith in Snape. Let me say first, though, that if Snape had not killed Dumbledore, the Death Eaters would have done so, and the thought of Fenrir Grayback savaging Dumbledore is more revolting to me than Snape killing him. (And note that Dumbledore died with his eyes closed and a peaceful expression. Does that suggest an AK to you?) At any rate, here's my Snape as DADA teacher theory. First, as Merry links has pointed out, Dumbledore needed to free up the Potions position to give it to Horace Slughorn. There's no way that Slughorn (who uses the same textbook in his NEWT Potions class that he used when Tom Riddle was his student), could have taught DADA. Second, Snape seems to be a much better DADA teacher than he was as a Potions teacher. Granted, he's a Potions genius, but he's also an expert at fighting the Dark Arts. We see only one of his classes, but we also see that he's teaching the students a very useful and very difficult skill, nonverbal spells. Of course, they're not much good against a Legilimens like Snape, nor does Harry yet have the skillsto duel with Snape (assuming that he is indeed ESE!), but most Death Eaters are not of his caliber in skills, intelligence, or power. In this time of peril, Dumbledore wants the best DADA teacher available, and that is Snape, the man who saved Dumbledore when the ring horcrux would have killed him, and who later saves Katie Bell from the cursed necklace (granted he doesn't cure her, but he slows the curse so she doesn't die on the way to St. Mungo's) and heals Draco before Harry's astonished eyes of the Sectumsempra curse he himself invented. It is also thanks to Snape that Harry knows about bezoars. That was the very first lesson Snape taught Harry and Harry would have done well to remember it. As it is, his memory of bezoars is refreshed by the teenage Snape's annotations in his Potions textbook. If it were not for Snape, Ron would have died from the poisoned mead. Why, then, has Dumbledore waited so long to place Snape in the DADA position? There is, first, the reason that JKR gave in her interview and that Snape gave to Bellatrix (and, presumably, to Voldemort): that DD is afraid that exposure to the Dark Arts (even in a class intended to defend against them) will turn Snape back into a Death Eater. That may well have been his reason at first, but two months into Snape's career as teacher, Voldemort was defeated and the Death Eaters were being rounded up and sent to Azkaban. It seems unlikely that Snape would have wished to join them. There must, then, be another reason, and that reason has been place in front of us in every book. The DADA position is jinxed, and as we now know, that jinx was placed by Voldemort himself. Dumbledore, we know, trusts Snape. Moreover, Snape is very useful to him, as we again see from the first book. It is Snape who discovers that Quirrell is after the Sorceror's Stone, Snape who casts the countercurse that keeps Harry from falling to his death in his first Quidditch game, Snape who makes the wolfbane potion that enables Lupin to remain at Hogwarts without endangering the students, Snape who makes the veritaserum that makes Barty Crouch's confession possible, Snape who informs the Order that Harry has gone to the MOM. Throughout the first five books, it is clear that Dumbledore depends on Snape. He trusts Snape, he needs him, and he cannot afford to lose him to the jinx on the DADA position even if it means having Delores Umbridge as DADA teacher. This dependence is even greater in HBP. It is, as I've already said, Snape and Snape alone who is capable of removing the Dark Magic from the cursed necklace and the ring horcrux. It is Snape that Dumbledore wants to see when he is poisoned trying to retrieve the locket horcrux. There is, however, another complication: The Unbreakable Vow. Clearly Dumbledore already knows about it because Snape has already told him about it. Even if he doesn't know exactly what Draco is supposed to do and Snape must finish for him if he fails, he knows about the vow itself. "Perhaps I understand more from this than you do, Harry," he says, and perhaps we should listen. For fifteen years, since before Voldemort's fall, Dumbledore has been keeping the DADA position from Snape. Now, however, with the school and the WW in peril, he cannot give the position to anyone else. He must give it to the most qualified candidate, the man he trusts above all others, the brilliant and powerful Severus Snape. Dumbledore knows that between the jinx placed by Voldemort and the Unbreakable Vow, neither he nor Snape will be at Hogwarts next year. Now, before the peril grows any greater, he must give the position to Snape. There will be no other chance. I think that Dumbledore knew he would have to die by Snape's hand and Snape knew it as well. Both of them did what they could in the meantime, Snape teaching DADA, removing curses from dark objects, and "helping" Draco by putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention, Dumbledore by showing Harry memories that would aid him in his search for horcruxes. But both know it cannot last and Snape will have to die, failing to protect Draco and allowing the DEs to murder Dumbledore or keep his oath and kill Dumbledore himself. I am betting that Dumbledore has not lost his wisdom and that he was right to trust Snape, both as DADA instructor in the last book and in general. And whether he was right or not, Snape taught Harry some valuable lessons in HBP. It will be well for Harry if he heeds Snape's advice: leave the Unforgiveable Curses alone and keep his mouth shut and his mind closed when he's fighting someone who's likely to kill him. And that Snape doesn't do even when Harry is helpless and at his mercy. Carol, hoping that Harry keeps a bezoar in his pocket in Book 7 From slmuth at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 05:01:21 2005 From: slmuth at hotmail.com (catjaneway) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:01:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's Contribution to Deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135643 Nickel wrote: Could someone please point me to the direction of the relevant posts. > In Chapter 2 'Spinner's End', Snape makes the following comment 'The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information that I have passed him on the order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, although I give you full credit for finishing him off.' > My question is this: Is this just a lie that Snape told Bellatrix to try and convince her of what side he was on? Or did he really pass Voldemort information that led to these murders? Janeway points: Check out mssg #135430 :-) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 05:22:05 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:22:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Timeturner question - comments anyone? Message-ID: <9a.2ab01111.301c687d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135644 In a message dated 7/29/2005 7:53:26 PM Central Standard Time, jlnbtr at yahoo.com writes: Juli: She gave it back to McGonadall. At the end of PoA she tells Harry and Ron that she returned the Time Turner, and she quit Muggle Studies, that it was too much. I don't have the exact quote, but it's at the very end. Melissa: "I know," sighed Hermione, "but I can't stand another year like this one. That Time-Turner was driving me mad. I've handed it in. Without Muggle Studies and Divination, I'll be able to have a normal schedule again" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 30 03:24:07 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:24:07 -0000 Subject: Could Snape ever be a hero? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135645 David wrote: As he fled the grounds of Hogwarts after killing DD, he gave Harry one last piece of advice - an odd thing for a true villain to do: "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learnto keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape... (page 562, UK edition). If Snape is truly evil, why would he feed Harry advice about how to defeat him or defeat He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? Now Janeway: I find it interesting that so many people see this scene as Snape giving Harry advice. Sounds like once again Snape just doesn't "get" Harry. To me his insistence that Harry play by LV's rules (mouth shut, mind closed) doesn't sound like especially valuable advice. Deb writes: I disagree, Janeway. I think Snape here is still trying to teach Harry how to protect himself from Voldemort and how to possible vanquish him ... not play by V's rules. LV is such a powerful Legilimens he can "read" Harry's intentions by reading his emotions. When they come face to face again - if Harry has not mastered nonverbal magic and has not learned how to shield his thoughts and emotions - LV will be able to tell which spell, curse, hex, jinx, Harry is going to throw next - and defend against it -- just like Snape did -- almost faster than Harry can yell out the word(s). See when one is intensely focused on a difficult task and trying to remember what to do next, one accesses the memory of what to do or runs through the options that one knows before deciding what to do and V can interpret memories as well as emotions. While Harry is already a very good wizard he is not yet experienced enough or practiced enough for the right action to come automatically. In intense situations one also tends to subvocalize before speaking out loud. Also it takes longer to yell out a spell than it takes to do it nonverbally (granted we're talking milleseconds here but in a fierce battle such at that one would be, every millesecond counts). I think Snape here was again trying desperately to show Harry what he needs to do to over come LV. I would imagine that if one were to watch a duel between to master wizards it would be quite silent as they blast each other with nonverbal spells. All you might observe would be the sparks and flares eminating from their wands and what ever impact the spell has on the opponent. Deb From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 03:34:45 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:34:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135646 Auria I really want to believe that DD's death is fake and you present some excellent arguments in favour of this. However I read in one of JK Rowling's interviews that she felt 'really upset'' after writing the ending of HBP. This does not bode well - why would she feel upset if she knew DD's death was not for real? Auria, maybe she is upset because, once more, she has left Harry un- informed about the truth, and having to face the music alone. I guess, she knows this is the correct thing to do because Harry needs to start to believe in himself, and mature so that he can be prepared for what awaits for him in book 7th. And I think that we can all agree that we could already see how Harry starts to look at life differently at DD?s Funeral, he acknowledges that DD was a human, and that, my friends, gives Harry more faith on himself... as we have discussed in other messages on this same topic... Dilia From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 30 04:05:25 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:05:25 -0000 Subject: "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135647 (Snip) Leslie wrote: That is *not* how the text reads. And there will be no "real" explanation until book 7. I believe Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore, dreaded doing it, and regretted doing it. But did it because it had to be done. The circumstances of that have yet to be revealed. The mere fact that Rowling leaves Snape's motivations and his feelings suspect is cause enough for doubt. And ask yourself this...if you "had" to kill something you loved...a beloved dog lying half-dead in the road, injured beyond recovery by a passing car, what look, as you pulled the trigger, would be on *your* face? Horror. Revulsion. Maybe even something that looked like hate. But that doesn't mean you want to kill your dog. Deb writes: I agree Leslie - and what if this is what preceded this necessity? I think that DD is telling him, as he has on other occasions to "Please get on with it, do what I told you to do". And I think the necessity for this is related to the cave, the lake, the liquid DD drinks... and to what DD strongly believes is worse than death. My strong suspicion is DD thinks that a living death... like a Inferi, zombie, or some other entity that is dead but kept animated to do the bidding of a Dark Lord..... would be much worse than death! There has been some speculation about what was in that bowl ... what if it was the potion, or first part of a spell, that creates Inferi... "corpses ... dead bodies that have been bewitched to do a Dark Lords bidding."... as DD tells Harry on their trip to Slughorn's house. What if the liquid in the stone bowl is the Draught of Living Death... mentioned several times in previous books. DD tells Harry it won't immediately kill him, and says, once back at Hogwarts, that he has come back "after a fashion". Or if not the potion in the bowl then the water in the lake... DD tells Harry 3 times not to touch the water.... perhaps his warning is more than just not wanting to "wake up" what dwells beneath the surface of that vast lake. For it seems to me that under this lake dwells LV's army.... an army of Inferi. The corpses of most of the people he (and maybe the DEs) have murdered or caused to disappear during his reign of terror. Harry just splashes the water from the lake onto DD's face .... and perhaps DD hopes that that will not activate the Inferi curse... So Harry gets DD back to Hogsmead and DD wants Snape right away for his superior knowledge of the Dark Arts.... and Potions. I suspect he is hoping, or knows, that Snape has an antidote to whatever it was that he drank... or is carrying a bezaor(though Snape said in the very first Potions class that bezaors will protect one from "most poisons"... so maybe it won't work on all poisons). But I also suspect that there is a time component... that the antidote must be given quickly... and he does not get to Snape fast enough ... so when he is lying there on the tower, and Snape comes through the door, the only thing left to save DD from becoming one of LV's Inferi is for Snape to kill him. And Snape, having promised to save DD from this terrible fate, is angry beyond measure that this has come to pass, disgusted and revolted by the possibility of his mentor becoming one of LV's Inferi ... and resolute in his determination to save DD from a fate worse than death. Deb From djklaugh at comcast.net Sat Jul 30 04:29:50 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:29:50 -0000 Subject: Could Harry have saved Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135648 I truly love Harry Potter and his saga! And I am enjoying reading all of the lively and intelligent debates going on here... but some times while reading the books and reading postings I want to grab Harry by his robe and shake him and tell him to "wake up!". Harry, at 16 almost 17 is still way too impulsive and unplanful to succeed in his quest to vanquish LV!! IMO his response to DD's request that Harry accompany him to search out the Horcrux in the cave is more like Harry at 11 or 12 or 13 than what I would expect of a 16yo... yes 16 can still be impulsive but usually when asked to accompany an adult, especially a mentor such as DD, they would ask some thoughtful questions before setting out... like "Where are we heading, Professor, and what might we encounter there or along the way?" "What should we take with us that might be helpful in this quest?" "Are there special things we might need?" If Harry had been a bit more planful he might have been able to save DD from whatever was in that bowl.... if he had taken a slurp of the Felix Felicis before giving the bottle to Hermione and Ron.... if he had put a bezoar into his pocket... if he had thought that maybe on a journey one might need food and supplies and ... water... And what might have happened it he had utilized nonverbal spells when first attempting to "Accio Horcrux" and had not alerted the Inferi to their presense? And what might have been the outcome if he had listened to DD about what would hold off the Inferi (fire) rather than wasting time with other spells... so that he had more time to attend to DD? And what if he had remembered throwing off the Imperius Curse and used that to attempt to throw off the effect of the spell DD put on him on the tower? Of course then we'd have a whole different story... LOL But IMO these are some of the lessons Harry needs to learn between now and the start of book 7... Yours in Pensieve moments Deb From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 04:31:22 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:31:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore ... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135649 Marianne: However, my impression is that [Occlumency] is now a non-starter - Harry doesn't need this to protect himself from the invasions of Vmort. Why? Because Harry has the ability to love people, which is anethema to Vmort. Dilie wrote: I don't think you took that conversation that DD had with HP about Occlumancy the way some of us did You see, LV is currently using Occlumancy to protect himself from Harry and the Order. However, that does not mean that when LV wants to check out if DD is really dead, he wont go through Harry's thoughts, which are obviously pretty easy to see. Lets face it, that's not one of his forte. Marianne: And that's one part of my problem with this. DD continuing to control the story, dig out the information, direct the "hero", is old news at this point. Maybe you're right and this is what JKR has up her sleeve. If so, the last book could be called "Marianne's Cat and the Tomb of Voldemort." Harry would be as incidental as a piece of furniture. Harry is then no more than a tool in the hands of the grand master, Dumbledore. Dilia Wrote: I'm sorry, if that really is the case, why not call it, Three Heads is Better than one and the Chamber of Secrets? You are aware that Harry wouldn't be were he is, if it wasn't for DD, Ron and Hermione? I think you missed the message in this last book. Harry, of course, will succeed, because he has friends he loves, and friends who look over him, friends who protect him. Voldemort, undoubtedly, will loose because his death eaters are scared of him, that's not respect. These DE, they have the knowledge but lack the courage, that's why they feel safe under LV ?umbrella?. Marianne: Agreed, but, he will be the hero if DD has indeed bit the proverbial dust. If Dumbledore rises and again leads the way, then Harry is no more than the hammer DD needs to pound in that last nail in the coffin. Dilia wrote: Again, we are failing to see at the same way. A mentor does not push you through the way; he shows you, and most of the time, he facilitates many troubles that may be in the way. If we concur on this, than maybe we are getting somewhere. Marianne: Well, if JKR's only reason to bump off Sirius is to make me believe that DD could also die, when she's really planning on bringing him back, then that's an incredibly stupid reason. Especially, if what you seem to suggest is some authorial sleight of hand: Sirius is killled off, so I'll believe it when DD is apparently killed. And, then, in Book 7, DD springs up alive? And, I'm supposed to be happy about this? I'd feel manipulated in the extreme. Dilia wrote: No, no, no. Why do you have to call it stupid? We've been over this in other messages on the same topic. It could be that Dumbledore was interested in Harry seeing him die. For instance, if Harry finally sees Dumbledore, the best Wizard ever, die before his eyes, maybe just maybe he would finally realize that he is also human. And with this, he would start to believe in himself, mature a lot, and acknowledge the great wizard he also is. Since in all the books he always doubts his powers, he is just human. For example, in the first book, after Hagrid tells him he is a wizard, he does not believe it, even though all the weird stuff he had done throughout his life that he could not explain. And then afterwards he learned pretty well that he is a wizard, but could not believe that he is the wizard that Dumbledore expects him to be. UNTIL NOW! In conclusion, I guess Dumbledore wanted Harry to meditate on his death, so that he starts believing in himself, as he did at the end of the 6th book, where it is obvious he has matured a lot. Marianne: Well, in my mind, it's not plausible at all. So the RAB person did whatever to the potion in order to place the fake locket there. And then DD and Snape figured all that out, replaced the potion with some other potion, set up the scene so that DD and Harry would have their adventure, but it was all a hoax? So when DD blows back into Hogwarts in Book 7 Harry will be so happy to see him that he'll ignore the fact that he's once again been DD's toy? Sorry, not buying it. Dilia wrote: No, it's not like that. Meditate on it... You see, Harry has matured, he has started to mature ever since Sirius death, and now we could actually see it in DD's funeral. He will understand, that without it, he could have never start to believe in himself. Nevertheless, I will encourage you to read the messages that were posted previously with the same subject. -Dilia From bhavna at impsmanagement.com Sat Jul 30 06:01:57 2005 From: bhavna at impsmanagement.com (Bhavna ( Impact Management, Mumbai )) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:31:57 +0530 Subject: Snape- New Theory Message-ID: <00af01c594cc$32be51e0$2c00a8c0@tasneem> No: HPFGUIDX 135650 Hey Potterphiles, Sorry for not giving credit if someone has already created this thread before but its really difficult to keep up with all the posts. Its very farfetched I admit - but what if Snape is on no one's side? What if he is only on the winning side? He was a DE when LV was at the peak of his power - God knows how many innocent lives he took then - including of course albeit indirectly HP's parents ...when LV started losing his hold he conveniently scuttles off to DD and wins his trust ...now seeing that DD is slowly getting outnumbered by the DE joining ranks with the werewolves and dementors, maybe even giants and goblins (unconfirmed as per HBP) - he switches sides again to LV saving his skin once again. He knows enough about both sides to get out of any sticky situation ...has enough information to use to his advantage on both sides ! If this theory is taken as true what would emerge is a shrewd but extremely selfish character - a complete coward since he does not have the back bone to die fighting on one side - the kind associated with Pettigrew but even lower and darker than him. This could also explain why Snape gets to mad at HP for calling him a coward - because he is one ...and you always get more angry when you know the other person is right! What do you guys think? Bhavna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From surreal_44 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 06:03:31 2005 From: surreal_44 at yahoo.com (Krissy) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:03:31 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135651 >>Gatta wrote: I'm with Del on this one. Hermione is smart enough to know that she needs a foundation before she can build.<< >>>phoenixgod2000 responded with: No she isn't. She proved that with SPEW. She just jumped into the middle of trying to fix a problem without understanding it.<<< I have to disagree with you there. That WAS Hermione thinking out-side the box. And it didn't work. Do you remember Hermione's boggart? It was that she had failed every class. I think Hermione's deepest fear is failure. When she can get over her fear of failing I think she'll be brilliant at whatever she experiments with. Also, did it bother anyone else that Hermione DID seem kind of stupid in Potions? We're talking about a girl who made Poly-juice Potion in her second year. I don't understand how she could do that then, but suddenly seem quite inept and unable to work at potions in her sixth year. I feel that maybe JKR went a little over-board at trying to stress how much better the HBP was at making potions. ~Krissy From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sat Jul 30 06:36:57 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:36:57 -0800 Subject: The Bones Family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135652 What is it about the Bones family that is so important to LV, so important that he has killed members of the family during both wizarding wars? Susan is in Hufflepuff, so it seems unlikely that LV was in pursuit of them for an artifact to use as a Horcrux. He already has the cup (murder of Hepzibah) from Hufflepuff. Of course, it isn't known, as far as I know, whether Amelia, Edgar, and the rest of the murdered Bones' were in Hufflepuff. They could have been in Ravenclaw or even Griffindor. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From casmir2012 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 06:20:14 2005 From: casmir2012 at yahoo.com (casmir2012) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:20:14 -0000 Subject: platform 9 3/4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135653 > Auntydle asks: > Why did Mrs. Weasley have to ask Ginny the number of the > platform in TSS? This was how Harry knew he had to follow > them to find the platform, but, why didn't she > already know the number of the platform? Casmir: I think it's because JKR needed a way for Harry to find platform 9 3/4, so she invented it happening that way. I seriously doubt more thought went into it. From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 07:11:52 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:11:52 EDT Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) Message-ID: <1ec.3ffea5f2.301c8238@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135654 Doddie here: I do not think she was misleading at all. DD doesn't say he trusts Snape with his life as he does with Hagrid...He states that he trusts Snape! Julie says: In HBP Harry questions once again why DD trusts Snape, DD pauses as if he is thinking about revealing more to Harry, then DD says "I trust Severus Snape completely." I think DD using the word "completely" is an affirmation of the same kind of total (blind) trust DD implies when he says "I trust Hagrid with my life." So I'm not seeing a lot of difference in the kind of trust DD places in Snape and Hagrid. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diliapacheco at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 06:55:52 2005 From: diliapacheco at yahoo.com (diliapacheco) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:55:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135655 Joe: > I would somehow be very disappointed if Dumbledore was > resurrected in book 7. Dead people do not return to life > - at least not on an earthly plane > I believe DD is indeed dead, and if he is to offer any > further counsel, I believe it will be through his portrait. Joe, I don't believe that using earthly plane to describe Harry Potter is in fact politically incorrect. I can't see where a place that has such things as Avada Kedavra, Sirius Black, Centaurs, Dementors, Dragons, Druids, Flamel, Sorcerer Stone, Giants, goblins, Hippogriffs, Kappas, Mirror of Erised, Nagini, Runes, Sphinx, Trolls, Unicorns, Wands, Wizards, and many others things, could be called earthly. About Dumbledor?s portrait in his room how many portraits did Gildroy have in his? Also, I would encourage you to read the messages that were posted on this same topic before because the topic of why DD death being a hoax is good, or possible has already been discussed. Please read them so that we may hear your new comments. Thanks so much. Dilia From juli17 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 07:20:03 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:20:03 EDT Subject: Dumbledore and Gandalf... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) Message-ID: <15.49c4d992.301c8423@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135656 Marianne wrote: I have to agree with Sherry on the question of the inadvisability of keeping Harry in the dark about whatever grand scheme Snape and DD supposedly came up with to cover this non-death. After all, that tactic blew up in their faces once before. Julie says: I first thought DD didn't tell Harry because he didn't want Voldemort to get that information from Harry's mind. But Voldy's been staying pretty clear of Harry's mind. Now I've had another thought. What if DD didn't tell Harry mostly to spare Harry from knowing complicity in his death? Or because he knew Harry wouldn't be able to go along with it? Snape was barely able to follow through, and then only after DD's urging ("Severus...please..."). And if the potion in the cave was ultimately fatal, could Informed!Harry have gone through with that part of the "plan"? That would be a lot to put on Harry, who already has more than enough on his plate. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 08:51:31 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:51:31 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Krissy" wrote: > >>>phoenixgod2000 responded with: > > No she isn't. She proved that with SPEW. She just jumped into the > middle of trying to fix a problem without understanding it.<<< ~Krissy: > I have to disagree with you there. That WAS Hermione thinking out- side > the box. And it didn't work. She wasn't thinking outside the box. She was thinking like any other late twentieth century muggle girl. she was just proacticve enough to do something about it. thinking outside the box would her her deciding what was best for muggle humans might not be what was best for a magical nonhuman race. Instead she reacted as if Dobby and every other house elf had desires and needs exactly like a human would. > Do you remember Hermione's boggart? It was that she had failed every > class. I think Hermione's deepest fear is failure. When she can get > over her fear of failing I think she'll be brilliant at whatever she > experiments with. I would agree with you slightly here. I think that what holds hermione back is in part a fear for failure. she stays on well trod paths because she knows they work and finds comfort in that. When she learns that failure can also lead to knowledge she will be a much better witch and person for it. On the other hand I think she lacks a true spark of creative genius that all great inventors have. Remember, invention is an art not a science and I just don't think hermione is that much of an artist. > Also, did it bother anyone else that Hermione DID seem kind of stupid > in Potions? We're talking about a girl who made Poly-juice Potion in > her second year. I don't understand how she could do that then, but > suddenly seem quite inept and unable to work at potions in her >sixth year. I thought it made perfect sense. Hermione follows directions perfectly. when she is given perfect directions she makes great potions. Less perfect directions and she makes less perfect potions. Seemed to fit with Hermione's skill set to me. phoenixgod2000 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jul 30 09:29:10 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:29:10 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail / next deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > > But which major character will die in the next book? I came to the > awful realization today that in addition to Snape (a given, in my > opinion, regardless of which side he's on) it's going to have to be one > of the children. Not Ron or Hermione, please, please!! Maybe a more > minor character like Luna or Neville? :( This scares me because I was > right about the deaths in OOtp and HBP.... > > > Allie > (and if it's Ron, the wrath and grief of the Potter fans will be > Greater and More Terrible than Ever it Was...) Hickengruendler: Well, there is "birthday theory", meaning that all the characters, who get a Birthday Wish on JKR's website will survive. I never was much a fan of this theory, since I don't think JKR would quasily tell us, who lives. However, exactly one year ago (July 30th: "Happy Birthday Neville Longbottom") the first birthday appeared on the website and therefore now that exactly one year of birthdays is over, we can indeed say that Dumbledore didn't get a birthday wish in this year, in spite of being still "alive" for most of it. The most major character still alive, who also didn't get a birthday wish, is Luna. I hope this is not a bad sign. On the other hand, Snape did get a birthday wish, and I agree with you that he is dead meat. Hickengruendler From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 09:35:44 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:35:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione thinks outside the box ; SPEW (was: Am I the only one...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135659 Gatta wrote: "I'm with Del on this one. Hermione is smart enough to know that she needs a foundation before she can build." Phoenixgod countered: "No she isn't. She proved that with SPEW. She just jumped into the middle of trying to fix a problem without understanding it. " Del replies: Hermione spent *hours* researching the House-Elves, in the library and with people. After a while, she even worked on finding the way to see them herself. IMO, SPEW was very much "thinking outside the box": the WW box that says that there's nothing to question about House-Elf enslavement. Except that there is. It's even the very first thing we learn about House-Elves, through Dobby in CoS: that some of them are extremely unhappy having to serve cruel and abusive masters with whom they morally disagree. So Hermione questioning the whole House-Elf enslavement matter is definitely a sign of thinking outside the box: she doesn't simply accept the way things are done in the WW. Now sure she seems to be going at it the wrong way, and she's even going against the wishes of many of the very people she's trying to defend. But that's *part and parcel* of thinking outside the box! For one stroke of genius, there are dozens of downright lunatic ideas. That's the way it goes. And only *time* often tells the difference between the genial ideas and the lunatic ones. So there's no way to know if SPEW is a stroke of genius or a stupid idea, not yet. Phoenixgod wrote: "But I think that Hermione generally lacks the imagination to be an inventor. She is technically proficient with magic but lacks the creative spark to really push the bounderies of anything. She is a smart, but conventional thinker." Del replies: How conventional was it to suggest Polyjuice Potion to weasel secrets out of Draco? How conventional was it to sign up for every additional classes in CoS? How conventional was it to have Rita interview Harry, and then to have the interview be published in the Quibbler? How conventional was it to Jinx the DA members? Personally, I see many signs of Hermione being very creative when she wants to. What signs make you think that she is so conventional and uncreative? (IOW: do you have canon support for your opinion ;-) ? ) Phoenixgod wrote: "Slavery is wrong in the muggle world so it must be wrong in the magical world. she doesn't stop to think that maybe elves work under different rules than people do." Del replies: But that's *precisely* what thinking outside the box is about. Taking something from one domain and applying it to another domain, that's typical of geniuses. By refusing to believe that things are just different in the WW, or that the way things are done in the MW is irrelevant to the WW, Hermione IS thinking outside the box. As far as human slavery is concerned, I'll remind you that most people, especially among the masters but also among the slaves themselves, thought there was nothing wrong with it. It was just the way it was. And even now, many things are still accepted in many parts of the world because "it's just the way it is". Take the Indian caste system for example: most Indians had no problem with it for centuries, including among the Untouchables themselves. But now that they are being influenced and encouraged by people from "Western" cultures, more and more Untouchables are daring to change their minds, speak out and demand a change. Hermione is doing exactly what has to be done whenever a culture is supporting something they deem immoral: she's promoting the grant of "higher" rights to a caste who doesn't yet enjoy them. Phoenixgod wrote: "Her limitations in the social arena I think indicate the problems that she would have in the academic one." Del replies: I totally disagree on this one. The social arena and the academic world are not at all the same thing, and they don't need to be connected. Geniuses are sometimes socially awkward, or even downright anti-social. Moreover, Hermione is NOT limited in the social arena. She looks like she got it wrong with the House-Elves, but she has also repeatedly shown that she understands people reasonably well. In a follow-up post, Phoenixgod wrote: "She wasn't thinking outside the box. She was thinking like any other late twentieth century muggle girl." Del replies: Exactly! She was thinking like a *Muggle* girl, and that's where her genius lay. She DARED apply something Muggle to the magical world, and *that* was thinking outside the box. Ever since they arrive at Hogwarts, the Muggle-born kids are told that the MW and the WW are two different things, and they are encouraged to leave their "Muggleness" behind. But Hermione didn't. Instead she dared apply a Muggle concept to a magical species. That is *exactly* what thinking outside the box is about. Remember what DD said about the Fountain of Magical Brethren? That it was telling a lie. DD thought that the way wizards see House-Elves is *wrong*. So Hermione seeing them in a different way is good. Phoenixgod wrote: "Instead she reacted as if Dobby and every other house elf had desires and needs exactly like a human would." Del replies: You forget one important detail: Dobby DOES have desires and needs exactly like a human. Hermione did not invent that. Dobby relishes in his freedom, he is asking for wages, and Hermione had nothing to do in that. Now most WW people think that Dobby is the old Elf, that he's the freak, the exception. But what if he is the *forerunner*? What if he is the first of his species to dare asking for a change? What if there *really* is somethig wrong with the House-Elf enslavement as it is practiced today? Then by fighting for a change, Hermione WILL turn out to have been a social genius, in a few decades or centuries! Geniuses *often* seem to be wrong *at first*... Del From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 30 10:04:04 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:04:04 -0400 Subject: Snape's Contribution to Deaths Message-ID: <005701c594ee$04e10430$a1c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135660 Nickel.said: >>My question is this: Is this just a lie that Snape told Bellatrix to try and convince her of what side he was on? Or did he really pass Voldemort information that led to these murders? CathyD now: He lied. Just like he lied about not knowing Harry is a powerful wizard (parselmouth, patronus at 13, defeated LV again as QuirrellMort, defeated the basilisk/destroyed the diary). Just like he lied by omitting the fact that he actually saved Harry during the Quidditch match. Others believe Snape lied when he said he knew what Draco's task was. That he used Legilimency to read Narcissa's fears while he was looking out the window. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 30 10:05:06 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:05:06 -0400 Subject: Nonverbal spells Message-ID: <005b01c594ee$29f9ef20$a1c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135661 Sarah asked: >>I was wondering what spells are cast nonverbally, and what spells are cast verbally. There, obviously, is a big emphasis on non-verbal spells in HBP, and I noticed that even though most incantations are "thought", Dumbledore says "Lumos." The unforgivable curses are also spoken. However, in the Ministry Battle in OoP, the Death Eaters were using a lot of non-verbal, as were the Oop memebers. Why, if all spells could be non-verbal, would anybody speak the incantation out loud? This seems like unneccessary effort to me. CathyD now: I cannot answer you but just wanted to add one thing. The spell that was done on Hermione was done non-verbally. Madam Pomfrey said that while it wasn't as bad as it could have been if spoken, it did enough damage to be getting on with. Are some spells, then, less potent if not spoken? As well, Snape said "Not all wizards can do this, of course; it is a question of concentration and mind power which some lack." If this wasn't just a jab a Harry, and not all wizards can perform non-verbal spells, why then were they expected in Transfiguration and Charms as well? It would certainly lead to failure for some students, wouldn't it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sat Jul 30 11:01:06 2005 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:01:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Bones Family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135662 In a message dated 7/30/2005 2:37:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lwalsh at acsalaska.net writes: What is it about the Bones family that is so important to LV, so important that he has killed members of the family during both wizarding wars? Susan is in Hufflepuff, so it seems unlikely that LV was in pursuit of them for an artifact to use as a Horcrux. He already has the cup (murder of Hepzibah) from Hufflepuff. Of course, it isn't known, as far as I know, whether Amelia, Edgar, and the rest of the murdered Bones' were in Hufflepuff. They could have been in Ravenclaw or even Griffindor. The Bones family are just one family of many who've lost people. In HBP characters that we've come to know are vanishing left and right. It's one of the ways JKR makes the war seem real. Voldemort has no problem killing people (or having people killed) who refuse to cooperate with his reign of terror. The Bones family refused to play his game. Roxanne http://Caffeinatedgeekgirl.typepad.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 11:09:38 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:09:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: <14262fbd05072919544a7a244a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135663 snip conversation\ JKR: It''s reality. It''s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. Chys: Someone asked before on this list (in defence of why DD trusts Snape) if a memory stored in a pensieve is no longer in a persons head. (As of why DD would so adamantly trust Snape even if he couldn't tell Harry exacty why.) My question is; is it? If Slughorn had placed that cut up memory in DD's care, then how come he still has the visible parts in his head, so that they can watch the whole thing all together later from the one thread that he gives to Harry? Or did he only give out the parts he hadn't given him earlier, and DD sliced and pasted them together so they could watch the whole unedited scene? Chys From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 11:10:13 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:10:13 -0000 Subject: Human!Snape Fill in the Blanks in HBP Spinners End first.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: > > > ...... > > > > I wonder, always wonder, after reading HBP. Why, why did Snape agree > to make Unbreakable Vows with Narcissa? Chapter 2 gave me an > impression that Snape showed a great affection to Narcissa, > understanding and kind enough to comfort her. > > Do anyone have a thought that Snape loved Narcissa so deeply that he > agreed to Unbreakable Vows? even if it meant that he had to kill > Dumbledore? > > I doubt about my interpretation, however, on the second thought. > Snape, self-interest as he was, unlikely to foresake what he had at > the moment because of a pure love. Killing Dumbledore meant he > betrayed the whole wizarding population (which he wouldn't mind much > though) and lost a favourable position as the right-hand man of two > greatest wizard of the time (which was indeed a great loss). > > Thus, I come up to the idea that Narcissa must know some big secrets > of Snape so that if Snape refused Narcissa's requests, she would have > him feel sorry. But what were the "secrets"? > > Any ideas? > > > Angel Sue: Um ... reading this scene, I got the impression that Snape was taken by surprise here, but he had Bellatrix breathing down his neck, he knew that he wasn't playing for pennies here and any hesitation would lead to his cover being blown. (Nevertheless, he does react slightly) Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of the age, would just have to look after himself, something he is very good at - with the appropriate warning, of course (and who *did* warn him what Draco was up to, if not Snape?). How was either of them to know Draco was going to bring in the Death Eaters on that particular night in hopes of getting all the credit? Even if he *is* a normal sixteen-year-old boy! ;-) It was just bad luck that it happened when DD was at his most vulnerable after that useless visit to the cave. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 11:18:14 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:18:14 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135665 > I would like to hear others' theories... > > Sonja Chys: Well, we still have Godric's Hollow. Is it (or some structure or piece of it) named after, or had it belonged to, the Gryffindor??? Chys From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 11:40:14 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:40:14 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135666 I posted earlier that I thought either Snape did not fully understand the plan when he took the Unspeakable Vow (making it null and void) or it is proof that Dumbledore died a real death, otherwise Snape would be dead for failing to keep the Vow to Narcissa. Throughout the entire Vow "ceremony", not once did Narcissa say "Dumbledore" or "Kill". Narcissa was very specific about protecting Draco, but vague in the specifics of the "deed". Now I am thinking that it wouldn't matter if Snape knew the full plan or not. pg. 37 AE HBP "Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake." This doesn't sound like the vow "didn't take", so I don't feel there's any point of believing (hoping!) in a "Dumbledore's death was faked" storyline. So my conclusion now, sadly, is that Dumbledore is dead, the kind of dead that you don't come back from. It still leaves speculation that Snape could not have known exactly what Draco's orders were, and he spent most of the entire school year trying to find out fully the mission Draco was ordered to fulfill--in fact, he was all over Draco like a cheap suit to the point that Draco thought he was trying to steal his thunder. It might explain the argument that Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore having--where Snape didn't want to do it anymore...because he found out the deed was to kill DD? And then there is Wormtail. Does anybody believe that Voldemort sent him there to "assist" Snape? In doing what? Snape relegated him to servant status and Wormtail was listening at the door. I think he was put there by Voldemort to keep an eye on Snape. For what reason? That Voldemort doesn't trust Snape? That puts an interesting "spin" on things...DD trusts Snape to the nth degree and Voldemort doesn't. Snape also gave Bellatrix "spin" after "spin" of justification for his behavior since Voldemort's fall while making her feel disloyal and inept. I think this chapter is named Spinner's End because that's exactly what Snape did. Like a spider surrounding his victims with web, Master Spinner Snape convinced his DE critics (including Voldemort)with his words and deeds in this chapter. Now, the question is, where does his spinning end? From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 30 12:04:52 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:04:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories Again In-Reply-To: <000a01c593e2$481d5120$482fdcd1@katmac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135667 : > Gatta: > > Why is it that when we are shown Snape's memories (OotP, hb U.S. ed.), both when he is teaching Harry Occlumency (p. 592) and in the Pensieve (pp. 640-649), Snape appears "in the third person", as it were? > That is, from the outside, even though it is Snape doing the remembering? Potioncat: In Occlumency lessons Harry's memories are also third person. He sees "young Harry" watching Dudders ride a bike, and sees himself running from Digger. I think it's just the technique JKR chose. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 12:05:04 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Am I the only one... (Hermione and Multiple Intelligences) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050730120504.67963.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135668 --- Milz wrote: > Again, if the polyjuice potion did not exist in the HP universe, > would she have been able to conceive of that idea and would she be > able to execute it? My guess is no, because she hasn't > demonstrated > the qualities needed to do that, including but not limited to: > > 1. She doesn't think outside of the box. She limits herself to the > safe confines of convention and does very well within those > confines. > 2. She lacks the critical temerity to apply her knowledge outside > of the box, unlike the Weasley twins. > > When limitations are imposed, creativity and innovation stagnates. > All the innovations and discoveries are because someone somewhere > thought one day "what would happen if" and actually set out to do > it. > They didn't cower in a corner and think "Because page 354 of The > Textbook of Everything says it's not possible to do, I'd better not > > waste my time." That attitude and that lack of critical thinking > only leads to intellectual stagnation. Okay, first of all NO ONE is saying that Hermione isn't intelligent, so let's just retire that straw man completely, shall we? Good. Sorry Milz, I'm not referring to you but to the person you're addressing. I would also like to propose that when Hermione does get creative with magic - ie, using potions/charms/whatevers in a manner that might be considered "outside the box" - she is always "outside the classroom". That is to say, when its a matter of using magic creatively during an escapade or to help Harry in some way, she's pretty flexible and creative. But inside the classroom, when its the approval of the teachers she's craving (and she does crave it), then it's by-the-book Hermione all the way. That's why it frosts her cookies no end when Harry uses the HBP's textbook and shortcuts and "extras" and still gets teacher approval for it. She can't adjust her technique at this point in the game. Magda (who thinks Hermione needs to sort out a few things about needing the approval of mentors before she graduates) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 12:27:42 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:27:42 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135669 vmonte: If Snape turns out to be bad, I would really like for there to be another DE that turns out to be good and working for Dumbledore. Someone no one knows about, except for Dumbledore. I've been thinking about Aberforth. Is it possible that Aberforth is not really DD's brother but some guy DD put into witness protection? I know that Regulus is supposed to be dead according to JKR, but I've been thinking about how Aberforth is always associated with goats. SS, Page 138 "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save you from most poisons." vmonte: Is Aberforth treating himself for some kind of poison induced illness (poison from lake)? Did the poison from the lake hurt his memory? (Doesn't Dumbledore say at one point that he is not sure whether Aberforth can read or not?) HBP, U.S. edition, Page 591 "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine." vmonte: Was Dumbledore planning on using the Draught of the Living Death potion that Harry made in Slughorn's class to trick Voldemort into thinking that Draco was dead? If Snape was really trying to help Draco wouldn't he have left him with the Order? So, what if Snape is bad? But what if there is another DE Dumbledore gave a chance to? Someone he fed the Draught potion to and made it appear as though he died. What if this person is living in plain sight of everyone? What if it's Aberforth? What if he's Regulus? Wouldn't it be great if this DE turned out to be good! Vivian From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 30 12:55:55 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 05:55:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Harry have saved Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c59506$06f99710$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 135670 I truly love Harry Potter and his saga! And I am enjoying reading all of the lively and intelligent debates going on here... but some times while reading the books and reading postings I want to grab Harry by his robe and shake him and tell him to "wake up!". Harry, at 16 almost 17 is still way too impulsive and unplanful to succeed in his quest to vanquish LV!! IMO his response to DD's request that Harry accompany him to search out the Horcrux in the cave is more like Harry at 11 or 12 or 13 than what I would expect of a 16yo... yes 16 can still be impulsive but usually when asked to accompany an adult, especially a mentor such as DD, they would ask some thoughtful questions before setting out... like "Where are we heading, Professor, and what might we encounter there or along the way?" "What should we take with us that might be helpful in this quest?" "Are there special things we might need?" If Harry had been a bit more planful he might have been able to save DD from whatever was in that bowl.... if he had taken a slurp of the Felix Felicis before giving the bottle to Hermione and Ron.... if he had put a bezoar into his pocket... if he had thought that maybe on a journey one might need food and supplies and ... water... And what might have happened it he had utilized nonverbal spells when first attempting to "Accio Horcrux" and had not alerted the Inferi to their presense? And what might have been the outcome if he had listened to DD about what would hold off the Inferi (fire) rather than wasting time with other spells... so that he had more time to attend to DD? And what if he had remembered throwing off the Imperius Curse and used that to attempt to throw off the effect of the spell DD put on him on the tower? Sherry now: No, I don't think any 16 year old kid would have thought to ask such questions, when he was going somewhere with the greatest and most powerful wizard in the world, the person Harry believed knew how to handle anything, trusted implicitly. It's almost parental. I wouldn't ever have thought of questioning if my dad had all we needed for something, even if it was something dangerous. Even now, in my 40's, if my dad was alive, I wouldn't think of questioning his preparedness. Harry wouldn't have thought he needed the luck potion, when he was with Dumbledore. He did believe that those left behind at the school would need it, and he was right. Remember, at the beginning of the book, when Harry and Dumbledore set off to find Slughorn? Dumbledore tells Harry that nothing will happen to him, because Harry is with Dumbledore. The kind of absolute faith Harry has in Dumbledore would never think of questioning if there was anything else needed for this trip, because he would be sure Dumbledore was completely prepared. And let's not try to let Snape off the hook by laying the blame on Harry. Harry's shouldered enough blame that he doesn't deserve, without taking the blame for this! Snape murdered Dumbledore. It is his fault completely. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Snape, right where it belongs. I realize that those who think Snape is still on the good side disagree with that. It is of course only my opinion, but Harry doesn't need to take on any more blame for things that are not his fault. Sherry From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 13:13:32 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:13:32 -0000 Subject: HBP Review in Globe and Mail / next deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135671 Hickengruendler: Well, there is "birthday theory", meaning that all the characters, who get a Birthday Wish on JKR's website will survive. I never was much a fan of this theory, since I don't think JKR would quasily tell us, who lives. However, exactly one year ago (July 30th: "Happy Birthday Neville Longbottom") the first birthday appeared on the website and therefore now that exactly one year of birthdays is over, we can indeed say that Dumbledore didn't get a birthday wish in this year, in spite of being still "alive" for most of it. The most major character still alive, who also didn't get a birthday wish, is Luna. I hope this is not a bad sign. On the other hand, Snape did get a birthday wish, and I agree with you that he is dead meat. vmonte: Maybe she couldn't celebrate Dumbledore's birthday because the month and day would give something away about the plot. What if Dumbledore's birthday is also at the end of July. LOL! Vivian From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 30 13:21:17 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:21:17 -0000 Subject: Timeturner question - comments anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Auria" wrote: > Does anyone know what happened to Hermione's timeturner which she had throughout PoA? A possible hole in the plot me thinks! > > Auria Sandra writes: Hi Auria, I have such a bee in my bonnet about that wretched time turner, not just because book 3 does not work (don't worry, I'm not triggering off that thread again!) but also because you are spot on with your comment - anybody in books 4 and 5 could be saved, and the great big kop-out in book 6 whereby it's claimed that 'all' of the TTs were broken or destroyed, is ludicrous. How can any character say for sure that all TTs were in the same place? And if it was possible to make a bunch of them, what's to stop anyone from making a bunch more? JKR opened a can of worms once she started incorporating the concept of unregulated timetravel into the stories. She used it as a plot device, but didn't introduce any rules and regulations for controlling it. As such it's a loose cannon, and has been blasting holes through the WW world (for me, at least) ever since. I could drone on about using a TT to stop the parents of HP or LV ever meeting etc etc, but that's already been done so I won't. But I will say that JKR does tend to walk a path of convenience in regard to it. As for Hermione's TT, she apparently handed it back, but I don;t know what happened to it after the teacher took it. I assume it's in a drawer, waiting for the right moment in book 7 to appear again. Sandra From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 13:46:19 2005 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:46:19 -0000 Subject: A few more thoughts on Patronus change Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135673 I've posted on this subject before - fooling around a bit with the wishful idea that the real Tonks is absent in HBP and that someone else was disguised as the Tonks we met in the book. I just can't get rid of the thought that Tonks was not Tonks. Mostly because I don't buy the idea of the Patronus change. Why would a patronus change? She's in love with Remus and it doesn't work out for her the way she wants and so her Patronus is changing? Nope - I don't buy it. Harry is in love with Ginny now - so his Patronus is supposed to change because of a change in his feelings? Nah. If everyone's Patronus is supposed to change with every new state of emotional change within the person - then how would anybody recognize anyone's Patronus anymore? It just doesn't seem to fit. Snape was mocking *Tonks* over her *new weak* Patronus. I don't think so. Snape was mocking whomever was disguised as Tonks - and Snape knew who that person was. So - who was it? Or am I just on the very wrong track here? Inge PS! A little sidenote. Tonks was supposed to patrol Hogsmeade but 'she' showed up at Hogwarts on occassions when she was not really supposed to be there - and seemed rather distracted by her own being there.... another puzzle - another post - maybe. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 13:50:53 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:50:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's Other Victims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135674 4. Sirius. In HBP, Snape tells Bella that his information "certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, although I give you full credit for finishing him off." (p 30) So at a minimum, Snape claims to have passed info that contributed to Sirius' death. Valky Now: Your theory is quite good IMO, Janeway, but I can't see actual information being passed by Snape to Voldemort within it. So to add an aspect that would IMHO justify the claim that Snape gave useful informtion to LV in OOtP, heres my take: LV's objective was to get Harry to go to the MOM and take down the prophecy. Useful information in achieving that objective - that is in regard to Sirius Black (Though it may not necessarily have to be) couldn't be the information that Kreacher gave to the Malfoy's, Snape couldn't take credit for that, however, Snape could quite easily inform LV that Sirius was itching to leave HeadQuarters, going slightly stir crazy all alone in his hideout, a reckless fool who was ever likely to come out of hiding any minute, making him an easy target. The good thing about this information is that it made it perfectly obvious, once Kreacher had divulged how close Harry was to Sirius, that /no/ effort was required to convince HP that Sirius had been captured, tortured and about to die. A baboon brandishing a stick could put the idea in Harry's head that Sirius went out and got himself caught by Voldemort. phoenixgod2000 (On Eavesdropper!Snape): I've been thinking about this while I reread select parts of HBP and I have to say that this is the one part of the book where I think DD lets me down. I find it absolutely amazing (and infuriating) that DD who has always insisted on Harry giving Snape respect when he knows that Snape is the person who set in motion the events that left Harry an orphan. It seems to that is a slap in the face towards Harry and his loss. And when Harry comes to him in righteous anger he completely dismisses Harry's feelings. I don't think it matters which side Snape comes down on in the end. I won't be able to see him as anything other than evil. The way this man treats the two students he managed to help orphan tells me he can't be anything else. Valky: You're right phoenixgod. It's hardly fair that anyone should claim the right to ask respect for Snape of Harry. It is a big let down from DD, in that very way. Although Dumbledore perhaps kept the information from Harry because he believed that in time it would hurt less, which was clearly a mistake, or he was maybe trying to persuade Snape to someday come to his senses and offer Harry the chance to forgive him personally. In that case Snape would clearly be a childish prat to avoid it for so long. And although DD possibly hoped that Harry would mange to find a certain degree of respect for Snape otherwise, before any of it happened. I just cannot disagree, that DD was very wrong to press Harry to respect a man who had betrayed him so young and then made him pay further. Alla: Snape has SO much to beg Harry's forgiveness for, IMO. Valky: I have always agreed with you on this Alla. And I still do. After HBP I am more inclined to believe that Snape *is* reflecting on his guilt, and realising that he can't deny forever that he does actually think rather highly of Harry. But I am not sure Snape won't take it all to his grave leaving Harry with just the pieces of his shame and repentance to put together himself compassionately. I think this is as close to begging as we will ever get from Snape, but Harry is not driven by vengeance or motivated by a desire for satisfaction, I think Harry's ability to love will grant Snape his forgiveness, although in many ways it will be more than he deserves. Janeway: 2. Barty Crouch Sr. In GOF Snape prevents Harry from quickly informing DD that BC Sr. is on the grounds, giving Fake!Moody an opportunity to kill Sr. -Rebecca / HunterGreen: Harry was *leaving* to go the wrong way when Snape *called him back*. This isn't the whole quote, but Snape taunts Harry for about a minute before Dumbledore appears from the stairs. Since Snape was just up there, its an easy deduction that he knew Dumbledore was on his way down behind him. He just was using the moment to give Harry a hard time, rather than just telling him Dumbledore was coming down. After all, Snape is Snape. And Harry, being Harry, assumes later that it was Snape's fault he didn't get to Dumbledore in time. Valky: I was going to ask for those details Hunter. :D Thankyou. I don't doubt that Snape and Barty Jr didn't like each other at all. And I entirely doubt that Snape did anything at all to aid him. If he did, I am sure Snape will have used it in his defense to Bella in Spinners End anyway. The death I am most interested in is Emmeline Vance. She was an older witch among the group that collected Harry from the Dursleys in OOTP, yes? She wore all green, IIRC. I wonder what infomation Snape passed that lead to her death, if he did at all. It would seem that none of the other deaths irrefutably confirm an ESE Snape. So the details of this one is precisely what we need. One small detail is given in Chapter one, saying that Emmeline's murder happened "around the corner" from the Prime Ministers office. I can't seem to find other details, can anyone else? And can I ask the British members if around the corner from the PM's office is near Downing Street, or somewhere entirely different? From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 13:59:53 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:59:53 -0000 Subject: Could Harry have saved Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <002e01c59506$06f99710$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135675 Deb: "yes 16 can still be impulsive but usually when asked to accompany an adult, especially a mentor such as DD, they would ask some thoughtful questions before setting out... like "Where are we heading, Professor, and what might we encounter there or along the way?" "What should we take with us that might be helpful in this quest?" "Are there special things we might need?" " Sherry: "No, I don't think any 16 year old kid would have thought to ask such questions, when he was going somewhere with the greatest and most powerful wizard in the world..." Sherry again: "And let's not try to let Snape off the hook by laying the blame on Harry. Harry's shouldered enough blame that he doesn't deserve, without taking the blame for this! Snape murdered Dumbledore. It is his fault completely. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Snape, right where it belongs. I realize that those who think Snape is still on the good side disagree with that. It is of course only my opinion, but Harry doesn't need to take on any more blame for things that are not his fault." I don't think Deb is trying to transfer blame here, but (sorry, Deb) there's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on. I wish I could get full grown ups with years of experience to plan ahead a little more, but that's another story. No, very few sixteen year olds would think ahead tactically that much. How come Dumbledore didn't think of more himself? For one thing, they had no idea there would be a potion involved. It's absolutely no part of Harry's fault, but Harry would do well to think over the practical lessons of this experience. If I was him, I'd now want to have a little pouch containing, let's see, a bezoar (good idea, that) some Felix, some Veritaserum (useful if you catch someone you need to question), some Polyjuice (including hairs from several completely uninvolved people) some kind of danger detector, some of Forge's darkness powder, whatever Gred can come up with for me, and, above all, if it's possible, a spare wand. The Invisibility Cloak he already has. I'd actually have more stuff in my belt than Batman. This won't happen. JKR doesn't think that way, and she doesn't want this tale to turn into a comic book. It's just what I would do if I was in Harry's shoes. As far as Snape's guilt is concerned, I'm in the minority with you, Sherry. So far, he's betrayed three important members of the Good Side to their deaths and two more into madness, hid and assisted a nascent DE who darn near killed two Gryffindors, and killed Dumbledore, all in the name of victory for the Good Guys. As I said once before, his defenders have to explain away every single thing Snape does. I'm just glad he's on our side. I suppose it could get even worse. Jim Ferer From mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 14:18:58 2005 From: mt3t3l1 at yahoo.com (mt3t3l1) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:18:58 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135676 I was reading Sorcerer's Stone again and this jumped out at me. Hagrid is talking to Harry just before they leave the Hut-on-the-Rock. "Gringotts is the safest place in the world for anything yeh want ter keep safe -- 'cept maybe Hogwarts." We know that Voldy!Quirrell broke into Gringotts that same day in an unsuccessful attempt to steal the Sorcerer's Stone. I'm wondering, did Voldy ever break into Gringotts to leave something behind? Or in his more reputable days, did Tom Riddle ever store something in one of the vaults? This might be an excellent place to hide a Horcrux. Merrylinks From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 14:59:53 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:59:53 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135677 Cindy wrote: pg. 37 AE HBP "Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake." This doesn't sound like the vow "didn't take", so I don't feel there's any point of believing (hoping!) in a "Dumbledore's death was faked" storyline. So my conclusion now, sadly, is that Dumbledore is dead, the kind of dead that you don't come back from. It still leaves speculation that Snape could not have known exactly what Draco's orders were, and he spent most of the entire school year trying to find out fully the mission Draco was ordered to fulfill--in fact, he was all over Draco like a cheap suit to the point that Draco thought he was trying to steal his thunder. It might explain the argument that Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore having--where Snape didn't want to do it anymore...because he found out the deed was to kill DD? And then there is Wormtail. Does anybody believe that Voldemort sent him there to "assist" Snape? In doing what? Snape relegated him to servant status and Wormtail was listening at the door. I think he was put there by Voldemort to keep an eye on Snape. For what reason? That Voldemort doesn't trust Snape? That puts an interesting "spin" on things...DD trusts Snape to the nth degree and Voldemort doesn't. vmonte: Nice post Cindy. I don't think that Voldemort trusts Snape either. I think that Draco's task was really Voldemort's way of testing Snape. Voldemort was not sure of Snape's loyalty and wanted to see how far Snape would go to help Draco complete his task. Vivian From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 15:17:00 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:17:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Julie wrote: > "According to JKR's interview with Mugglenet/TLC, she is writing > according to a genre." > > Del replies: > Agreed, but according to the same interview she also incorporates what > she feels needs to be there: > > > > Emerson and Melissa were apparently satisfied with the romance, but > I'm not. I can't be satisfied with a romance that happens *entirely* > off-screen. Especially not when on the other hand we see Ron and > Lavender snogging every 5 pages during half the book (or so). > Julie now: I see her use of romance to develop the adolescent character, and I think this is why much of it is implied. Except, of course, for the "snogging" (being American, I loved that word! Conjured a very different image than simply "kissing" or "Making out." It was almost like they were trying to suck each other's face off.) THe snogging created tension in the characters that could not have been created as well in implication. However, I don't think we are going to get much of the characters romatic fantasies, internal dialogue, etc., because this is a fantasy/action book. I do understand that many people want much more of the romance, which is why this fanfic is so popular. I just don't think they are going to be satisfied with what they get in this septology. > ---- > > > Salit wrote: > "I think Snape is the most complex and interesting > character in the serie, and I am sure that book 7 will have an > excellent reason for both DD's trust and Snape's seeming treachery." > > Del replies: > Yes, but what if it *doesn't*? See, THAT is what I am afraid of: that > Snape will be shown to be a very simple character, who either always > worked for LV or simply always played both sides for his own > advantage, and in both cases DD was simply *wrong* to trust him. I'm > afraid that we might discover that DD had NO good reason to trust > Snape, that he did it only because he believed in giving second > chances. I'm afraid to discover that Snape is nowhere as complex as I > think he is, and that DD's death is exactly what it looks like: Snape > finally either showing his true colours or choosing his side. > > Del Julie now: Del, I absolutely agree with you here. I have said through all six books that Snape is the most complex character in the series. If the death of DD in book 6 has no mor to it than what we saw, I, too, will be incredibly disappointed. From isis227 at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 13:52:14 2005 From: isis227 at gmail.com (Isis 227) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:52:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A few more thoughts on Patronus change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887587d405073006525dbc5dda@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135679 On 7/30/05, Inge wrote: > I've posted on this subject before - fooling around a bit with the > wishful idea that the real Tonks is absent in HBP and that someone > else was disguised as the Tonks we met in the book. > > Snape was mocking *Tonks* over her *new weak* Patronus. > I don't think so. Snape was mocking whomever was disguised as > Tonks - and Snape knew who that person was. > > So - who was it? Or am I just on the very wrong track here? A little more evidence to support your point-- JKR has said (in the TLC/Mugglenet interview-- unfortunately, I don't remember which part) that the romance between Tonks and Lupin was a red herring (she used those words). She didn't explain, and she wasn't asked to. I could guess that could be as simple as disguising what everyone assumed to be her being upset with Sirius' death, but perhaps there is something more that we have yet to learn... we do know that Patronuses are important, we just don't know how important... -Isis From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 30 15:26:02 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:26:02 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > If Snape turns out to be bad, I would really like for there to be > another DE that turns out to be good and working for Dumbledore. > Someone no one knows about, except for Dumbledore. I've been thinking > about Aberforth. Is it possible that Aberforth is not really DD's > brother but some guy DD put into witness protection? > I know that Regulus is supposed to be dead according to JKR, but I've > been thinking about how Aberforth is always associated with goats. > > SS, Page 138 > > "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping > potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. A > bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save > you from most poisons." > > vmonte: Is Aberforth treating himself for some kind of poison induced > illness (poison from lake)? Did the poison from the lake hurt his > memory? (Doesn't Dumbledore say at one point that he is not sure > whether Aberforth can read or not?) > > HBP, U.S. edition, Page 591 > > "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right > side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can > possibly imagine." > > vmonte: Was Dumbledore planning on using the Draught of the Living > Death potion that Harry made in Slughorn's class to trick Voldemort > into thinking that Draco was dead? > > If Snape was really trying to help Draco wouldn't he have left him > with the Order? > > So, what if Snape is bad? But what if there is another DE Dumbledore > gave a chance to? Someone he fed the Draught potion to and made it > appear as though he died. > > What if this person is living in plain sight of everyone? What if > it's Aberforth? What if he's Regulus? Wouldn't it be great if this DE > turned out to be good! > > Vivian vivian - please read my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135368 there is a link in it that points to why the reason why Snape turned *good* and the key is....Regulus original theory link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 colebiancardi (wishing more people would search on the word Regulus and find my "theory") From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 15:35:07 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Omniscient Dumbledore (Was Re: Snape's AK Failed!!!, and DADA responses) In-Reply-To: <83.2c62bd8c.301876ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050730153508.44028.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135681 > Nora wrote: > > Confidant is an interesting word, because that is exactly what JKR > says that Dumbledore *does not have*, in the latest interview. I > suspect that we've been overestimating how much Dumbledore actually > tells Snape, in the sense of planning things out as an explicit > line of attack. It seems much more Dumbledore's style to let > Snape go his own way, and then only step in when necessary. I > can't see the good > cop/bad cop team that's been hypothesized, anymore. I really can't > see the idea that Dumbledore and Snape set up half the things we've > tended to think they have. There is one thing that Snape and Dumbledore have in common that no one else in the Order or at Hogwarts can share in: they both know Tom Riddle/Voldemort intimately. They have seen The Enemy up close and know him better than anyone else on the good side - and for both of them the upcoming fight is the last chance to get it right. This common knowledge is the basis of a lot of their private discussions over the years - especially the last five years - and in that sense we can describe Snape as Dumbledore's confidant. Both men understand that in order to win the big war, they might have to lose a few battles along the way, endure casualties from their own side, whatever. I can't see anyone else in the Order having the stomach to face these unpleasant realities squarely. I'm not sure that legilimacy can account for Snape's receiving some kind of message from Dumbledore to kill him on the tower; I do think that the two of them have been talking over the year about what to do to make sure that Voldemort is defeated. One of the ways to do this would be for Snape to do something so incredibly evil that Voldemort's doubts would be wiped completely away. Killing Dumbledore would be a sure-fire way to accomplish this. So when Snape came up onto the tower, Dumbledore begged him to take the final, irrevocable step and kill him so that he could return to the DE's openly and with the Final Game Plan in mind. And Snape - like a good confidant - did. Magda ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 15:35:49 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:35:49 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135682 Adding comment to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135477 vmonte: Snape as Iago - By the way, Snape also told James not to trust Sirius. Was he trying to get James to switch keepers? Did James tell him to go to hell? Did Snape then go to Sirius and make him doubt his keeper abilities? Is that why Sirius made Peter keeper? Vivian From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 30 15:39:53 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:39:53 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Adding comment to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135477 > > vmonte: > Snape as Iago - > > By the way, Snape also told James not to trust Sirius. Was he trying > to get James to switch keepers? Did James tell him to go to hell? Did > Snape then go to Sirius and make him doubt his keeper abilities? Is > that why Sirius made Peter keeper? > > Vivian Vivian, in which book & chapter does this exchange take place ? My memory is foggy, like Slughorn's..... thanks colebiancardi From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 15:59:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135684 > > phoenixgod2000: She wasn't thinking outside the box. She was thinking like any other > late twentieth century muggle girl. she was just proacticve enough to > do something about it. thinking outside the box would her her > deciding what was best for muggle humans might not be what was best > for a magical nonhuman race. Instead she reacted as if Dobby and > every other house elf had desires and needs exactly like a human > would. And so they do, as we are repeatedly demonstrated. They may not be as bright as some of wizards but they certainly have the same range and depth of emotion. Not to mention, that DD confirmed it to Harry in the Big Talk at the end of OotP. Or do you think that it was another of his huge mistakes? a_svirn From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 30 16:07:20 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:07:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A few more thoughts on Patronus change In-Reply-To: <887587d405073006525dbc5dda@mail.gmail.com> References: <887587d405073006525dbc5dda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42EBA5B8.1050509@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135685 Isis 227 wrote: > JKR has said (in the TLC/Mugglenet interview) > that the romance between Tonks and Lupin was a red herring. > She didn't explain, and she wasn't asked to. I could > guess that could be as simple as disguising what everyone assumed to > be her being upset with Sirius' death, but perhaps there is something > more that we have yet to learn... we do know that Patronuses are > important, we just don't know how important... > > -Isis > digger: I think it serves two purposes. Firstly, the red herring about Tonks lurking about outside the Room of Requirement, to make us think she was being polyjuiced by someone else. The fact that her Patronus had changed served to *seemingly* confirm this suspicion. But herring it certainly was, because it turns out her change of patronus was because of her new love for Lupin. I think that JKR is setting us up for Harry's patronus to change in book seven, and I predict that Patronus Prongs will become a Phoenix after Fawkes rescues our Hero from a sticky situation somewhere mid-book. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 16:11:29 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:11:29 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore /Snape's guilt In-Reply-To: <20050730153508.44028.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135686 Magda: > There is one thing that Snape and Dumbledore have in common that no > one else in the Order or at Hogwarts can share in: they both know Tom > Riddle/Voldemort intimately. > This common knowledge is the basis of a lot of their private > discussions over the years - especially the last five years - and in > that sense we can describe Snape as Dumbledore's confidant. Alla: But that is the big question to me. Did they have a lot of those private discussions over the years, or we just assumed it, imagining that Snape is DD right hand man? Magda: Both men > understand that in order to win the big war, they might have to lose > a few battles along the way, endure casualties from their own side, > whatever. I can't see anyone else in the Order having the stomach to > face these unpleasant realities squarely. Alla: But how does it prove that Snape is DD confidante, if no one in the Order can face those realities. ( I submit that we don't know that, but it is not really relevant). For all we know, it could be that Dumbledore indeed faces all of it alone, delegating some tasks to other order members as necessary, but never confiding fully in any of them. I am just not sure that Snape knows more than anybody else about DD ultimate plans. The Sirius' saving adventure is a good example , IMO. I don't think that DD bothered informing Snape about what he did. Magda: > I'm not sure that legilimacy can account for Snape's receiving some > kind of message from Dumbledore to kill him on the tower; I do think > that the two of them have been talking over the year about what to do > to make sure that Voldemort is defeated. One of the ways to do this > would be for Snape to do something so incredibly evil that > Voldemort's doubts would be wiped completely away. Killing > Dumbledore would be a sure-fire way to accomplish this. So when > Snape came up onto the tower, Dumbledore begged him to take the > final, irrevocable step and kill him so that he could return to the > DE's openly and with the Final Game Plan in mind. > > And Snape - like a good confidant - did. > Alla: Could you clarify, please? Many Snape defenders are saying that Dumbledore was dying anyway ( either from the after effect of un/horcruxing (??) the ring or from drinking the potion in the cave, that is why Snape only did what was to come anyway. I don't think I am buying DD asking Snape to do somemthing so evil that would hurt his soul even under those conditions ( Dumbledore dying soon anyway), but are you arguing that Dumbledore simply asked Snape to kill him, even if he was not dying in order to sacrifice himself for some game plan? If you are arguing it, could you explain to me some details of such game plan? I understand that this is all speculation, but I am primarily interested in how WW would be better served with Dumbledore dead > > > Jim Ferrer: > As far as Snape's guilt is concerned, I'm in the minority with you, > Sherry. So far, he's betrayed three important members of the Good > Side to their deaths and two more into madness, hid and assisted a > nascent DE who darn near killed two Gryffindors, and killed > Dumbledore, all in the name of victory for the Good Guys. As I said > once before, his defenders have to explain away every single thing > Snape does. I'm just glad he's on our side. I suppose it could get > even worse. Alla: Jim, thanks for saying that. I am in this minority too. :-) JMO of course, Alla From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 16:28:15 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:28:15 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135687 Cindy wrote: > And then there is Wormtail. Does anybody believe that Voldemort sent > him there to "assist" Snape? In doing what? Snape relegated him to > servant status and Wormtail was listening at the door. I think he was > put there by Voldemort to keep an eye on Snape. a_svirn: Yeah, I rather think Snape thought so too. Which is why he had `relegated him to servant status'. >For what reason? That > Voldemort doesn't trust Snape? That puts an interesting "spin" on > things...DD trusts Snape to the nth degree and Voldemort doesn't. a_svirn: I wouldn't read too much in that. Voldemort clearly doesn't trust anyone and handles his DEs according to the good old "divide and rule" principle. > > Snape also gave Bellatrix "spin" after "spin" of justification for his > behavior since Voldemort's fall while making her feel disloyal and > inept. I think this chapter is named Spinner's End because that's > exactly what Snape did. Like a spider surrounding his victims with > web, Master Spinner Snape convinced his DE critics (including > Voldemort)with his words and deeds in this chapter. Now, the question > is, where does his spinning end? a_svirn: If we are to accept your reading of `spin' and `spinning' then it has already ended: Snape drove himself to the point of Nonplus by making the Vow. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 16:44:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:44:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore v Gandalf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135688 I have been intending to comment on this thread for the last day or so but finding time to write the post has held me back as has trying to wade through the flood of recent messages but I felt that I wanted to look at comparisons between Gandalf and Dumbledore, because I believe that there are more differences than likenesses. It has been pointed out that Gandalf is a spiritual being in origin. If you read `The Silmarilllion', it has this to say in the `Valaquenta' chapter: "In the beginning, Eru, the One, who in the Elvish is named Il?vatar, made the Ainur of his thought... ...The Great among these spirits, the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda and Men have often called them gods... ...With the Valar came other spirits whose being began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar** , the people of the Valar and their servants and helpers... ...Wisest of the Maiar was Ol?rin..." **this is the plural. The singular is Maia. In 1954, Tolkien was working on a proposed index and wrote an essay called "The Istari", details of which were published in `Unfinished Tales' (George Allen and Unwin 1980) edited by Christopher Tolkien. >From it, we learn: "Wizard is a translation of Quenya `istar': one of the members of an `order' (as they called it), claiming to possess and exhibiting eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the World... ...they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West... ...Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru, they sent members of their own high order but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and *be slain*... ...Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those who came to the North of Middle-earth where there was most hope... the chiefs were five... ...Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful and he was the last-comer... named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim... ...he was called among Men of the North Gandalf..." We are also told in LOTR that his name in the East was Ol?rin, confirming his Valinorian name (see above). It is noted that Gandalf, as an Istar, can be slain. Although Tolkien always indicated that he did not like allegory, there is an obvious parallel here, at least to evangelical Christians, like myself, who believe that Jesus Christ was God in genuine human form, "subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain" (to quote from above) who came to earth to save those of mankind who accepted his sacrificial death on the cross. Dumbledore is not of spiritual origin. He is, like Gandalf, an older and wiser being who carries an aura of power. In the same way that Gandalf supports the side of good in the form of Aragorn, but does not hold ruling power and also acts a s a guide to Frodo, Dumbledore supports the side of good but does not rule and also acts as guide to Harry. Both of the wizards are up against an evil enemy who does not understand sacrifice and love and both find themselves very hard- pressed to successfully oppose him. Although much older, Frodo, like Harry, sometimes thinks on his feet and makes mistakes which hazard his quest ? putting on the Ring at Weathertop and allowing the Witch- king to stab him and, crucially putting the quest on a knife-edge at the Sammath Naur when he claims the Ring for his own. We have yet to see what knife-edges await our favourite Hogwarts student in the build-up to the final confrontation with Voldemort which we expect in Book 7. There is another quote from "The Silmarillion" which points up similarities to the Harry Potter scenario. Evil in Middle-earth had come from Melkor who was the mightiest Ainu but who, through seeking power and might for himself brought evil into the world, fell into darkness and became Morgoth (the Black enemy) of whom Sauron was originally his chief servant. "The Silmarillion" records: "Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he... held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar, many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts," So, again, I see a parallel here with the Death Eaters not on a spiritual, but on an earthly level. So Gandalf and Dumbledore were facing the same sort of problems, great evil emanating from one person who sought domination of the earth and who was served by corrupted followers but in the Potterverse, Voldermort is quite definitely not a fallen spiritual entity but a human (or ex-human) being who is comparable with the dictators of our own real world through the centuries. So, are Dumbledore and Gandalf similar? As Dumbledore himself said to Harry on one occasion: "Yes, and no". From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 17:08:39 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:08:39 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... (Hermione and Multiple Intelligences) In-Reply-To: <20050730120504.67963.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135690 Magda wrote: "I would also like to propose that when Hermione does get creative with magic - ie, using potions/charms/whatevers in a manner that might be considered "outside the box" - she is always "outside the classroom"." Del replies: So? None of those Hermione gets compared to, the Weasley Twins and the HBP, seem to have been creative *in the class* either, unless you consider Lily to have been the HBP. We've never heard that the Twins did anything creative in the classroom, and it was Lily, *not* Snape-the-supposed-HBP, who seems to have shown any creativity in the classroom, according to Slughorn. Magda wrote: "But inside the classroom, when its the approval of the teachers she's craving (and she does crave it), then it's by-the-book Hermione all the way." Del replies: I don't see what's wrong with that. I learned very early that I could exercise my imagination and creativity as much as I wanted at home, but that in school I'd better give the teachers what they wanted. I had a couple of teachers who encouraged creativity, but most didn't. I had many teachers who would have given me a zero if I had tried to pull out a bezoar trick like Harry did, especially in Science classes where learning the method was *at least* as important as getting the right result (often, the method was even more important than the result: getting the wrong result with the right method would often give me half the points, while getting the right result with a wrong method often meant a less-than-perfect grade). Magda signs: "Magda (who thinks Hermione needs to sort out a few things about needing the approval of mentors before she graduates)" Del replies: 1. I don't see what's wrong with needing the approval of a mentor. 2. She's stated her intention to follow Harry, and Harry has stated his intention to not go back to Hogwarts. This means that Hermione is willing to abandon her education and not graduate, not any time soon anyway. I'd say that's a big blow into all those theories about how books and studies matter more to Hermione than anything else. They don't. It's Harry, his safety, and his mission, who matter most to Hermione, and that's why she most often shows creativity in those domains. Just my opinion, of course. Del From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 17:22:42 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:22:42 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135691 I'd like to use my first post since reading the book to make two separate points. The first concerns the character develoment of Lupin and the second is about "why the half blood prince?" 1. Am I the only one to be slightly uncomfortable with JKR's treatment of Lupin in HBP? I find him quite weak and self-pitying in this book, but rather than feel sorry for my second favourtie character, I find it irritating and a diminution of his character. I also don't know why he was paired with Tonks. I'll be disappointed if Tonks only narrative purpose turns out to be to give Lupin a girlfriend, since she's a very two dimensional character in my eyes and I was hoping we'd "get to the point" of her in this book. With only one book to go, I hope it happens soon and that Lupin, who doesn't have a tougher life than snape does or hagrid did when he was with the giants, shows some of the old quiet strength for which I liked him. 2. Why the half blood prince? I thought it fairly obvious at an early stage when Harry started to use the potions book that it had been Snape's, mostly because I recognised his writing, through other times JKR has described it as "spidery" and secondly, the phrase "just shove a beazor down their throats" which was so Snape it made me shout out as I was reading. My point, though, is WHY did snape start caling himself this - yes, his mother was a "prince" and he was a half blood, but why give yourself a pseudonym, especially one that highlights something that (presumably, because he was a slytherin and preparing to be a DE) he was not proud of? a. was it a nickname or something he called himself I wonder. I don't think he would've taLked about being a half blood to his house mates, so if it was nickname, who gave it to him? b. It's a weird mix of self-agrandising and damning that might reveal something about him psychologically. We have the impression from a fragment of memory from OOTP that he had an abusive Dad and victimised mother. We don't know what he felt about her - resented her for being weak, felt sorry for her, loved her more than anything as a woman who tried to protect her son and had a special bond coming from not having two loving parents??? I guess his feelings about that can be deciphered to tell us why he referred to himself in the context of his mother's family and his parentage. Anyone got any ideas? Perhaps it's to say "even though I'm half blood I'm a prince" (as in important, or as in one of his mother's family and therefore capable of putting up with things done to him and surviving?) c. Was it a reaction to James and co.s bullying? That brings me to another thing. Why was the book called the half blood prince when it was not really important to the plot? I know that it was Harry's "skill" *cough* in potions that enabled his friends to have the felix felicius when they needed it, but so far that's all we've seen it do that could be considered relevant, and eevn then, that doesn't make the half blood prince as a person important, just the book. Do you think this is going to come back to haunt the plot? How? I think this is worthy of consideration because in amongst all the snape theorising (which I love - guess which side I'm on, lol)it doesn't seem to have been considered... Snapesangel x From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jul 30 17:35:20 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:35:20 -0000 Subject: Unsentimental JKR (was re: Snape Culpable and the Three-part Interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135692 desastreuse: It might be possible, as well, that DD realized that the DADA position had been jinxed at the time Snape inquired about it, and, because DD didn't want to *lose* Snape, he didn't give him the position in order to shield him. houyhnhnm: And if Dumbledore knows, by mid-July, that a year is all he and Snape have left, then it would make sense to go ahead and give him the position for which he is clearly well qualified. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 17:40:29 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:40:29 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffyndor's. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135693 > Chys: > > Well, we still have Godric's Hollow. > Is it (or some structure or piece of it) named after, or had it > belonged to, the Gryffindor??? > > Chys Antosha JKR has told us--I think it was during the World Book Day interview--that Godric's Hollow is a village, so that would tend to rule that out. Has anyone mentioned the Sorting Hat? That was Godric's, originally--though the idea of Riddle sitting in on the sortings for the last fifty years is a little icky. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 17:51:46 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:51:46 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135694 Adding comment to >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135477 > vmonte: Snape as Iago - By the way, Snape also told James not to trust Sirius. Was he trying to get James to switch keepers? Did James tell him to go to hell? Did Snape then go to Sirius and make him doubt his keeper abilities? Is that why Sirius made Peter keeper? >colebiancardi: Vivian, in which book & chapter does this exchange take place ? My memory is foggy, like Slughorn's..... vmonte again: PoA, page 361, U.S. paperback edition Here is the quote - Snape: "SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT!" Snape shrieked, looking madder than ever. "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black--now get out of the way, or I will make you. GET OUT OF THE WAY, POTTER!" vmonte: This always sounded like Snape tried to warn James about Sirius, but maybe he didn't. I wonder if Snape originally wanted to be friends with James (just like Draco did with Harry), but was then rejected by James? There is another paragraph that caught my attention. page 365 Sirius: "...The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared..." vmonte: Sound familiar. Olivander, anyone? Nice place to work, no? He remembers every wand sold and every student that purchased one. How old is this guy? Did he also sell Tom Riddle his wand? Vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 18:04:58 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:04:58 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135695 colebiancardi wrote: vivian - please read my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135368 there is a link in it that points to why the reason why Snape turned *good* and the key is....Regulus original theory link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 vmonte: I also think that the reason Snape went to Dumbledore was because of Regulus, but not for the reason you have (although of course you may be right). I cannot see Snape being friends with anybody, sorry. (If they did have a friendship it will turn out in book 7 that Snape was just using Regulus for information.) We already know that Snape has a habit of following people around, snooping, and working things for his best interest. I believe that Snape was probably suspicious of Regulus and somehow found out about the horcruxes. R.A.B.'s note to Voldemort says that he knows that he will probably be dead before V finds out what he has done. I think that Regulus realized that Snape was suspicious and it was just a matter of time before he is killed. Now this is key: Did Regulus drink the potion? Because there would have to be something wrong with his memory for both our theories to work. Regulus has knowledge of the horcruxes, why wouldn't he tell Dumbledore about them right away? In HBP, Dumbledore even goes to the same lake Regulus was already at. Why would he do this? If Regulus were alive wouldn't he tell DD not to bother going there? So, either Regulus is indeed dead, or he is alive but not quite the same man he was before. Hence the reason for the goat smell at the bar and the illegal goat spell. Is he ill? Does he need to take medication for the adverse effects of the lake potion? I still, however, like the idea that Regulus would have made Kreacher drink the potion. It sounds so Slytherin to me. If Regulus is dead because of Snape, it's quite possible that Regulus died without revealing where he thinks the horcruxes are. This would be a good reason for Snape to get in good with the Order, especially if he thinks that Regulus confessed this knowledge to the Order. I'm starting to think that the horcruxes are the real reason why the Longbottoms were attacked. Is there a horcrux at the Longbottom house? Was Regulus last seen in the company of the Longbottoms before he was killed? Do the Longbottoms know something? Did Snape participate in their torture? Is this the real reason why Neville fears him? Is this memory something Neville is repressing? If so, I bet the Longbottoms never gave up the information. Could be why Snape hates Neville (just like he hates Harry because of his parents). So, who the heck is Aberforth? Is he really Dumbledore's brother? It would be great if this person turned out to be someone else entirely. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/aberforth.html From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 18:18:28 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:18:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black: PoA Quote Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135696 Page 370, U.S. paperback edition Sirius to Peter: "I'll tell you why," said Black. "Because you never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for you. Voldemort's been in hiding for fifteen years, they say he's half dead. You weren't about to commit murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power, were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the biggest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you? Why else did you find a wizard family to take you in? Keeping an ear out for news, weren't you, Peter? Just in case your old protector regained strength, and it was safe to rejoin him..." vmonte: Did Snape switch sides because he realized that Dumbledore was on his last legs? Vivian From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jul 30 18:18:14 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:18:14 -0000 Subject: Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135697 Cindy: I posted earlier that I thought either Snape did not fully understand the plan when he took the Unspeakable Vow [snip] Throughout the entire Vow "ceremony", not once did Narcissa say "Dumbledore" or "Kill". Narcissa was very specific about protecting Draco, but vague in the specifics of the "deed". houyhnhnm: Two reasons I think Snape may not have known about the plan. 1. "But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains at the deserted street, then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning "'It so happens that I know of the plan,' he said in a low voice." Why did he go to the window. To check for spys in a neighborhood where "We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot" or to arrange his face before rolling out a real whopper? 2. "'But he won't succeed!' sobbed Narcissa. 'How can he, when the Dark Lord himself --?'" Nice place to cut it off. The Dark Lord himself what? Voldemort has tried again and again to kill Harry and failed. He has never gone after Dumbledore (although he does fight him at the ministry). If Snape believes Harry is the target (and I still believe there is some reason he can't harm Harry--either the life debt to James or a vow he has made to Dumbledore), then he may think the vow to help Draco carry out his task will not "take". Cindy: This doesn't sound like the vow "didn't take", so I don't feel there's any point of believing (hoping!) in a "Dumbledore's death was faked" storyline. So my conclusion now, sadly, is that Dumbledore is dead, the kind of dead that you don't come back from. houyhnhnm: I believe that Dumbledore is truly dead. All the statements Dumbledore has made about death prepare us (and Harry) to accept that. "To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." (PS/SS) "It is the unknown we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more." (HBP) I don't believe that he died at the hands of a traitor, begging for his life, though, because if so, it completely undermines the character of Dumbledore, negates everything he has taught Harry (and us). But Dumbledore also says, "You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us?" (PoA) and his totem animal was the phoenix, after all. Cindy: And then there is Wormtail. Does anybody believe that Voldemort sent him there to "assist" Snape? In doing what? Snape relegated him to servant status and Wormtail was listening at the door. I think he was put there by Voldemort to keep an eye on Snape. For what reason? That Voldemort doesn't trust Snape? houyhnhnm: I agree. It makes no sense that Voldemort would "trust" Snape. Probably, Snape managed to create just enough doubt to keep himself from being killed while Voldemort continues to check him out. Snape is an accomplished bully and Wormtail is a punk, so it would not be all that difficult for him to create the impression for visitors that Wormtail is his servant, when he has really been placed in Snape's house to spy on him. We know, that Voldemort, like all tyrants, keeps his followers suspicious and jealous of one another and in the dark. I have the feeling that Snape knows how to work that to get information. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 18:31:32 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:31:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135698 lindseyharrisst wrote: > My point, though, is WHY did snape start caling himself > this - yes, his mother was a "prince" and he was a half blood, but > why give yourself a pseudonym, especially one that highlights > something that (presumably, because he was a slytherin and preparing > to be a DE) he was not proud of? > > I've got a companion question to yours: why does Snape speak about himself in the third person when he calls himself by his proper name and in the first person when he calls himself "HBP"? In OotP Dumbledore in a private conversation with Harry stated that he "trusts Severus Snape". In "Spinner's End" Snape quotes him verbatim: he says, "Dumbledore trusts Severus Snape". Why couldn't he say "DD trusts me"? And during their confrontation with Harry in the end of HBP Snape says "I, the Half-Blood Prince". I think this use of grammar must be significant, but in what way, I wonder? a_svirn (baffled) From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 18:36:04 2005 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:36:04 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: <20050726223631.53830.qmail@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "d." wrote: > > > --- a_fabrefr wrote: > > "flyingmonkeypurple" wrote: > > > I have read that alot of the people here don't like Ginny. They > > > either did not like her before or they don't like her now for > > > telling Hermoione for yelling at Harry. I think that had nothing > > to > > > do with the fact that because Ginny can play Quiddithch. I know > > some > > > of you thought thought what she said was offensive to women. > > > > > > > > Yes but as far as we know Hermione is Harry and Ginny friend while > > Narcissa is not really in their inner circle ;-). > > I have had a problem with Ginny in HBP, part of them came from her reaction toward > > Fleur and her sentence toward Hermione, and part from her being nearly perfect (I mean > > great at Hexing great at quidditch, > > good look) with few flaws (beyond been full of herself. So I would > > like have seen a more human side. But she has next volume to redeem > > herself ;-). All I hope is some nice phrase toward Fleur and an > > understanding between them, and see a more faillible Ginny. > > Alexandre > > The problem I have with Ginny is not that she is without flaws, JKR spared her a bit here > and there. But it is that her 'flaws' are not supposed to be view as 'unpleasant' by the > author; they're supposed to make her real, endearing and interesting. So the problem is > really how JKR handle her character, which felt forced to me, and that puts me off. All > the supposedly 'kind & compassionate' qualities the great and fine Ginny supposed to have > are *told* to us through other characters, hardselling like a radio advertisment, instead > of showing. And readers are pound over the head constantly: to admire her as a tough > cookie, to look up to as the strongest female role-model who would never cried or let a > man to act with that gentlemen crap toward her; to desire her dazzling beauty; to be in > awe by her goddess greatness and resemblence to Fred & George + Ron + Molly + Lily > (etc.). That just irked me as a reader, because whenever Ginny appears on page what I > see is this smug girl who mocked other women behind their back, who tell off a crying > nurse in deep grief to *shut the hell up* at funeral, who is catty that no one can dare > to admire another woman's beauty in front of her, who went up and arm against all those > who dare to tell off their men, yet would never compete with them or jealous of them, > despite she's a capable seeker herself, because a perfect girl would never steal nor > threaten Harry's spotlight. A perfect girl is always so convenient like that! so ideal! A > true 'equal' in a non-threatening, supporting way. > > I'm also sick of fictions that reinforcing the girl (whom he only started caring in a > year ago, and gone out for few months) as the single most important person in the hero's > life. So Ginny is the love of Harry's life, therefore she is the no.1 most dangerous > target for the villain. Yet the two dearest friends who are like Harry's family for 7 > years are in no danger that the hero should concern for. And the silly villain would > always go for the girlfriend blah blah. All the scenarios and setup that dealt with Ginny > was just...*roll my eyes* > > I ended up completely oblivious to this supposed greatest love between Harry and Ginny. > In fact it tainted Harry's character for me. I fear this would be the fatal downfall of > this series for me, if this greatest love for Ginny is supposed to be source of Harry's > super duper extrordinary power (that no other has), and the one true thing that matter > most in defeating Voldemort. > > D. Now me: I basically agree with everything you're saying about Ginny's character. I did not like Ginny in this book, mainly because her flaws were portrayed to be non-flaws. In other words, her flaws come from some "endearing" part of her personality, are an off-shoot of something good, and therefore not really flaws. Her flaws are dismissed, and not portrayed as flaws at all. Like her hexing Zacharias Smith; it's supposed to be OK since it shows that she's powerful, spunky, and doesn't take crap from people. And Rowling's interviews made it so much worse, because it's not Harry's hormone- induced crush on Ginny that colors her personality, but this is how the readers are supposed to view Ginny. All the character traits that Rowling said that Ginny has, I didn't see. We might have been told about them, but I personally saw more of Hermione's character than Ginny's in Rowling's description of Ginny. In HBP, I found Ginny to be back-stabbing, petty, malicious, hurtful, and dismissive of other's feelings. For example, her treatment of Fleur was very poor. She has no reason to be jealous of Fleur, and every reason to try and like her, or at least give her a chance. We don't see any of this, we only see her moking Fleur behind her back. Hermione did as well, but we have seen exactly why Hermione dislikes Fleur. We haven't seen why Ginny dislikes Fleur so much, and this makes Ginny seem very shallow. Then Ginny curses Zacharias Smith because she can, and lashes out at him when she dislikes his commentary on the Quidditch match. Sure he was biased, but her reaction wasn't one that was very nice. As for Luna, Ginny's nice to Luna to her face, but still calls her Looney (which Luna found hurtful in OotP) behind Luna's back. Also, Ginny still hasn't been shown to be repentant at all for the events of CoS. She may have been possessed by Voldemort, but she still stole the diary back from Harry simply because she didn't want him to know about her obvious crush. She knew not to trust her diary, she knew she might be the one petrifying people, but she still stole it back. Causing two more people to get petrified. She cared more about concealing a "secret" than she did for other's lives. And after the diary was destroyed, she didn't ask about the petrfied students, or show any type of relief that they would be alright. Instead, she cries because she might be expelled from Hogwarts. That's it. She showed no remorse, nothing! Which, to me, is a major character flaw pointing towards her being utterly self-absorbed. Not to mention all of Ginny's new qualities that appeared out of nowhere. Since when is Ginny pretty? She was compared to the twins in OotP, and wasn't described as being pretty in the Yule Ball. Nothing about anyone finding her good-looking until HBP, when it is suddenly shoved in our face. And this isn't supposed to have been an overnight transformation, but one that the Slytherins noticed from before. What? Her sudden skills at Quidditch in OotP were also out of the blue; she never expressed an interest to play with the boys in GoF when they went out to play. But suddenly she's fantastic at Quidditch, and able to play more than one position? Then there's Harry and Ginny's shallow relationship. There was no substance there, just a lot of snogging and Harry obsessing over wanting to snog Ginny. Fair enough, he's 16, and that's what most 16 year old boys (and older men, as well I dare say) think about. But there's no partnership shown at all. Nothing. Harry doesn't confide in her, she's just an object of his hormones. They don't really have many interactions at all. Fine if this is supposed to be a short-lived teenage romance, but if Ginny is supposed to be his One True Love, then I don't buy it. And all the "clues" that fore- shadowed a relationship between the two could apply to others as well. A look here, a conversation there, and that's it. If this was foreshadowing, then Harry could potentially have feelings for Parvati, Luna, Hermione, Fleur, or Tonks. There's nothing different about Harry's relationship with Ginny. (I have a similar problem with Hermione and Ron, as Hermione treats a lot of other people the same way as she treats Ron. Only now she reacts vindictively because of jealousy.) All of the clues (and traits of Harry's "perfect girl") apply equally to Hermione or Luna. And I want to see why Harry's love interest is so special, but I don't see what's so special about Ginny. All reasons that Ginny is perfect for Harry (stands up to him, kind, gets through to him, brave, caring, etc) apply more to Hermione than to Ginny, in my opinion. And Hermione is portrayed as getting through to Harry, and getting an apology from him, much more than Ginny. Ginny helped Harry talk to Sirius in OotP, Hermione came up with a plan to help save Sirius. Ginny talked Harry out of his funk at Grimmauld Place, but Hermione is the one who got him out of his isolation so he could talk to Ginny in the first place. Harry apologized to Ginny, after he apologized to Hermione for snapping at her. Harry had an extreme reaction to Ginny's "death" in CoS, but forgot about her after defeating Riddle (until he heard her groan or something like that). Harry's reaction to Hermione's "death" was more extreme: he panicked, couldn't think, and didn't forget about at all; he even mentioned her a few times when he ranted at Dumbledore in OotP. Which is why I don't get why on earth Hermione, who has the characteristics of Harry's "perfect girl" in spades, is only his best friend while Ginny is his love interest. In my opinion, the only difference between platonic love and romantic love is sexual attraction, which we now know Hermione and Harry have. (Harry called her pretty at the Yule Ball, something he still has yet to call Ginny, despite others describing her as pretty. Hermione flat out said that Harry is fanciable.) Harry and Ginny don't have any real bond, aside from mutual attraction. So until the issue of Hermione and Harry's bond is discussed in the books, and why Hermione isn't the one for Harry, any other love interest that Harry has will fall flat, in my opinion. And Ron is not a reason for there being no romance between Harry and Hermione, in my opinion. Ron's an excuse, but not a true reason. So all in all, I agree with others who are dissatisfied with the romances in these books, even though these books aren't romance novels. It doesn't take much to portray romance in mystery novels; just look at Tommy and Tuppence in Agatha Christie's novels. From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 18:53:31 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:53:31 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: why does Snape speak about > himself in the third person when he calls himself by his proper name > and in the first person when he calls himself "HBP"? In OotP > Dumbledore in a private conversation with Harry stated that > he "trusts Severus Snape". Sorry, do you mean that DD said he trusted Severus? Can I have the part of the book the quote is from, please. I missed that entirely and it is very odd if Snape has started the habit of referring to himself as a character to DD! Sanpesangel From celizwh at intergate.com Sat Jul 30 18:56:25 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:56:25 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore /Snape's guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135701 Alla: But that is the big question to me. Did they have a lot of those private discussions over the years, or we just assumed it, imagining that Snape is DD right hand man? houyhnhnm: In chapter 2 of HBP we are shown what Snape has been telling Voldemort and the DEs. We are never shown explicitly what information Snape has passed to the Order, but I think there is indirect evidence, in chapter twenty-three of HBP, that Snape and Dumbledore have a confidential relationship and that Snape has passed on a great deal of critical information. "'I wonder what you will say when I confess that I have been curious for a while about the behavior of the snake, Nagini?' ... 'I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certainly seems to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth.'" and "'...but [Voldemort] was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold.'" How else would Dumbledore know these things except from Snape? From April at cyberlinc.net Sat Jul 30 18:53:49 2005 From: April at cyberlinc.net (April Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:53:49 -0400 Subject: Aberforth and the goats References: Message-ID: <016301c59538$06cb9680$1502a8c0@april> No: HPFGUIDX 135702 This would be my first post aside from the prediction contest. But something just struck me when I was reading the emails. Not sure if this has been talked about already, forgive me if it has. In Snapes first potions class with Harry, we get this information: SS, Page 138 "For your information Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save you from most poisons." I was wondering, Maybe Aberforth was in the business of getting the bezoar's from goats and had a bit of an odd way of doing it? Just a thought, does any one else think it could be? Maybe we'll hear about it in book 7, or JKR just wanted to add some humor for us to peice together. April From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 19:08:38 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:08:38 -0000 Subject: Hermione thinks outside the box ; SPEW (was: Am I the only one...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Phoenixgod countered: > "No she isn't. She proved that with SPEW. She just jumped into the > middle of trying to fix a problem without understanding it. " > > Del replies: > Hermione spent *hours* researching the House-Elves, in the library and > with people. After a while, she even worked on finding the way to see > them herself. She understands them so well that she has completely alienated the group from cleaning Gryffindor Tower and they all practically hate her. She understands them so well that she didn't know that she couldn't have freed them anyway because they weren't her elves, but she forged ahead anyway. Sounds to me like she needs to head back to the library. > IMO, SPEW was very much "thinking outside the box": the WW box that > says that there's nothing to question about House-Elf enslavement. > Except that there is. It's even the very first thing we learn about > House-Elves, through Dobby in CoS: that some of them are extremely > unhappy having to serve cruel and abusive masters with whom they > morally disagree. So Hermione questioning the whole House-Elf > enslavement matter is definitely a sign of thinking outside the box: > she doesn't simply accept the way things are done in the WW. See, I think we have a fundamental disagreement here about what thinking outside the box means. I contend that looking at a magical problem as a muggle is not thinking outside the box, it is thinking inside the box of her muggleness. For Hermione, thinking outside the box would involve leaving her muggleness behind and considering the problem from the point of view of magic--because it is a magical problem. if she did, maybe she would do research into how and why house elves are bound to masters and what to do about the oaths and geases that bind them to abusers. Instead her grand plan involves knitting hats. > Phoenixgod wrote: > "But I think that Hermione generally lacks the imagination to be an > inventor. She is technically proficient with magic but lacks the > creative spark to really push the bounderies of anything. She is a > smart, but conventional thinker." > > Del replies: > How conventional was it to suggest Polyjuice Potion to weasel secrets > out of Draco? a good idea anyone whose ever seen an episode of mission impossible could have come up with. > How conventional was it to sign up for every additional classes in CoS? For Hermione? Very! > How conventional was it to have Rita interview Harry, and then to have > the interview be published in the Quibbler? This one I will grant you. Dumbledore should be ashamed of himself. > How conventional was it to Jinx the DA members? that was just plain stupid. Why have a jinx that takes effect *after* the group betrays you. Utterly useless. Wasn't there any way she could have have done something that would prevent betrayal in the first place? > Personally, I see many signs of Hermione being very creative when she > wants to. What signs make you think that she is so conventional and > uncreative? (IOW: do you have canon support for your opinion ;-) ? ) All of your points are about creativity in a nonacademic setting. While we have gone pretty far afield from the original point, it was about her academic creativity. What signs of that has she shown inside the classroom or outside of it with magical experiements (like the twins)? She has shown technical proficiency to be sure, but that is different than true creativity and inventiveness. As she amply demonstrated during HBP and her frustration over her inferior potions. > Phoenixgod wrote: > "Slavery is wrong in the muggle world so it must be wrong in the > magical world. she doesn't stop to think that maybe elves work under > different rules than people do." > > Del replies: > But that's *precisely* what thinking outside the box is about. Taking > something from one domain and applying it to another domain, that's > typical of geniuses. By refusing to believe that things are just > different in the WW, or that the way things are done in the MW is > irrelevant to the WW, Hermione IS thinking outside the box. But while the morality of the situation might be the same, there are so many differences that you cannot tackle the problem in so completely a muggle way as hermione does. That is why I say she is a conventional thinker. Elves are bound by magic and psychology to serve. Even Dobby, oddest little elf of them all, acts incredibly servile towards Harry because he likes and respects Harry. Seems to me that the problem isn't with notions of elvish servitute , but with the abusers they are serving. But all Hermione can see ins one blazing word SLAVERY And she right away makes a decision about what must happen. everything she does, (and does badly) is towards that end. But elves don't want that end, they just want to be taken care of with respect. It is a totally different dynamic than human slavery. Take the Indian caste system > for example: most Indians had no problem with it for centuries, > including among the Untouchables themselves. But now that they are > being influenced and encouraged by people from "Western" cultures, > more and more Untouchables are daring to change their minds, speak out > and demand a change. Well, one the first people to point out the inequity of the cast system was Ghandi, who was definite not a westerner. In fact westerners would probably not be listened to by a vast majority of indians because they are by nature outsiders. > Hermione is doing exactly what has to be done whenever a culture is > supporting something they deem immoral: she's promoting the grant of > "higher" rights to a caste who doesn't yet enjoy them. True. And good for her. But I still contend that the methods she uses are uncreativity, in-the-box, muggle means. > Phoenixgod wrote: > "Her limitations in the social arena I think indicate the problems > that she would have in the academic one." > > Del replies: > I totally disagree on this one. The social arena and the academic > world are not at all the same thing, and they don't need to be > connected. Geniuses are sometimes socially awkward, or even downright > anti-social. You are absolutely right. I didn't express myself well enough. let me try again: I think that what I see as her conventional thinking in the social justice arena is similar to the conventional thinking she expresses in the academic/magical arena. In both places she looks at things from a limited perspective. Even if you disagree, which I have a feeling you will, do you at least understand my point a little better? Moreover, Hermione is NOT limited in the social arena. > She looks like she got it wrong with the House-Elves, but she has also > repeatedly shown that she understands people reasonably well. Well, except for Ron, but I suppose hormones and puberty can blind even the great Hermione Granger :) > In a follow-up post, Phoenixgod wrote: > "She wasn't thinking outside the box. She was thinking like any other > late twentieth century muggle girl." > > Del replies: > Exactly! She was thinking like a *Muggle* girl, and that's where her > genius lay. She DARED apply something Muggle to the magical world, and > *that* was thinking outside the box. How can a muggle girl thinking like a muggle girl possibly be anything other than thinking inside the box of her culture? She is in a world with all sorts of differences to that of the one she left behind. It seems to me that she didn't even stop to think about what additional elements magic and house elf nonhuman thinking patterns might have on the situation. She just plowed ahead based on her muggle conventions. > Ever since they arrive at Hogwarts, the Muggle-born kids are told that > the MW and the WW are two different things, and they are encouraged to > leave their "Muggleness" behind. True. And can you really blame them? Do you know what would happen if the muggle world discovered the magical? I think that it is admirable for Hermione to take her morality with her, but her tactics are conventionally muggle and therefore doomed to failure. You need magical solutions to magical problems. But Hermione didn't. Instead she > dared apply a Muggle concept to a magical species. That is *exactly* > what thinking outside the box is about. But that strikes me as a colossally dumb. Human slavery is very different than House Elf Slavery. There are forces at work in the second that are simply not present in the first. > Phoenixgod wrote: > "Instead she reacted as if Dobby and every other house elf had desires > and needs exactly like a human would." > > Del replies: > You forget one important detail: Dobby DOES have desires and needs > exactly like a human. Hermione did not invent that. Dobby relishes in > his freedom, he is asking for wages, and Hermione had nothing to do in > that. Dobby relishes his freedom because he isn't being beat anymore. He relishes his money because it is a symbol of his freedom (doesn't seem to actually need money). But dobby also practically presses himself into servitute whenever Harry comes calling. He does that because he likes being what he is, a helper and a servant. He just wants to be one that is valued. The average human thinks a little differently about service and servitude. While House elves clearly have the same gamut of emotions and desires as a human they are tangled up in a very different psychological makeup. Unless every human was a butler. Then house elves and people would be exactly the same :) phoenixgod2000 From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 19:13:25 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:13:25 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > why does Snape speak about > > > himself in the third person when he calls himself by his proper > name > > > and in the first person when he calls himself "HBP"? In OotP > > > Dumbledore in a private conversation with Harry stated that > > > he "trusts Severus Snape". > > > > Sorry, do you mean that DD said he trusted Severus? Can I have the > > part of the book the quote is from, please. I missed that entirely > and > > it is very odd if Snape has started the habit of referring to > himself > > as a character to DD! > > > > Sanpesangel > In "the Order of the Phoenix", I believe it was chapter 37 "The Lost > Prophesy", DD says to Harry "I trust Severus Snape". In "the Half- > Blood Prince" Snape boasts to Bellatrix and Narcissa: "Dumbledore > trusts Severus Snape". Not only does it sound like quote from the > conversation he didn't partake, but why on earth does he call himself > in the third person? Ooops, sorry I hit the "send" button by mistake! Anyway, In "the Order of the Phoenix", I believe it was chapter 37 "The Lost Prophesy", DD says to Harry "I trust Severus Snape". In "the Half-Blood Prince" Snape boasts to Bellatrix and Narcissa: "Dumbledore trusts Severus Snape". Not only does it sound like quote from the conversation he didn't partake, but why on earth does he call himself in the third person? a_svirn From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 19:22:27 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:22:27 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > In "the Order of the Phoenix", I believe it was chapter 37 "The > Lost Prophesy", DD says to Harry "I trust Severus Snape". In "the Half-Blood Prince" Snape boasts to Bellatrix and Narcissa: "Dumbledore > > trusts Severus Snape". I think it's just to emphasise that he does not regard the him who is trusted by snape as the real him. He may do, but obviously doesn't want Bella to see that. It's a method of stresseing that he has compartmentalised his life and that he is "loyal" to LV, IMO. Either that or he's turned into one of those irriatting ipie types who always talk about themselves like that. "I really want to discover who the real snapesangel is, man" etc. If in the next book he goes off to nicaragua to swim withthe porpoise or soemthing, we'll know, lol. Snapesangel From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 30 19:39:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:39:58 -0000 Subject: Go and Wake Severus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135708 Don't ever have private discussions in the Hogs Head or the Forbidden Forest. Charms class, Potions class...even the Great Hall are much better places. Of course, no one ever quite "ges" the entire conversaion. What about Snape and DD's little chat in the forest? Maybe the heated discussion had to with the UV. Maybe Snape has a way to circumvent the UV, but DD doesn't agree with it. Or perhaps Snape wants DD to take action against Draco. Heck we don't even know if or how much DD knows about the UV. I've seen some pretty good arguments both ways. Snape has been asked to do something he no longer wants to do. We'll work this one over for a couple of more years, but it could be that he thinks DD shouldn't be going after horcruxes. Perhaps he's agreed to patch DD up each time; but is DD taking too much for granted, thinking he can be patched up each time? He's an old man, maybe someone else should be going after them? When DD and Harry return to Hogsmeade, DD asks for Snape. He's very specific. He doesn't want Pomfrey; he wants Snape. "Severus," said Dumbledore clearly. "I need Severus." Then at Hogwarts DD says, "Go and wake Severus," "Tell him what has happened and bring him to me " Interesting that DD knew where Snape was. He told Harry to go wake Snape and bring him. How did DD know Snape was asleep? DD told Harry he never left Hogwarts unprotected. He has Order members patrolling the halls. But not Snape. Snape is in bed. Snape is in bed? The Dark Lurker himself is in bed while the others patrol the halls? Now, perhaps it isn't Snape's turn this night to patrol the halls. Order members need sleep too. Hard to believe Snape would go to bed if DD wasn't around, though. Flitwick goes to get Snape not sure if McGonagall knew Snape was asleep, or just that he wasn't on Patrol Duty. What happens when Flitwick wakes him? Snape attacks. He didn't go to bed knowing something might happen that would require his being woken suddenly. In fact, he didn't go to bed at all. Snape is already dressed. He was asleep, but he wasn't in bed. I think DD put a charm on him. I don't think he wanted Snape to know he was leaving the castle that night. Too bad. Things might have been different if Snape had taken on the DEs before DD returned. Thoughts? Potioncat From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 19:40:06 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:40:06 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135709 mochajava13 wrote: "I did not like Ginny in this book, mainly because her flaws were portrayed to be non-flaws. In other words, her flaws come from some "endearing" part of her personality, are an off-shoot of something good, and therefore not really flaws. Her flaws are dismissed, and not portrayed as flaws at all." Del replies: A sure sign of a Mary-Sue... Hermione has had flaws, real flaws, right from the beginning, and that's what's made her human. Ginny, on the other hand, seems simply too good to be true. mochajava13 wrote: "In HBP, I found Ginny to be back-stabbing, petty, malicious, hurtful, and dismissive of other's feelings." Del replies: Well, she IS like the Twins, and not just physically. The Twins can be extremely vicious with those they don't like, and Ginny is exactly like them. I guess it's not a coincidence that the Twins's faults are also systematically described in a positive way. I guess JKR just *likes* people like Ginny and the Twins. mochajava13 wrote: "Since when is Ginny pretty? She was compared to the twins in OotP, and wasn't described as being pretty in the Yule Ball. Nothing about anyone finding her good-looking until HBP, when it is suddenly shoved in our face. And this isn't supposed to have been an overnight transformation, but one that the Slytherins noticed from before. What?" Del replies: That's exactly what my husband said: "I never imagined Ginny to be pretty". Upon reflection, I realised that I never imagined any of the Weasleys to be good-looking, and that the canon never encouraged me to before HBP. Even Bill was not described as good-looking before HBP, IIRC: he was described as *cool*, which is different. But then suddenly, in HBP, just like Ginny, he's supposed to have always been good-looking. Huh?? I also feel that it's a huge missed opportunity to have made Ginny good-looking. Cho was the pretty face that Harry falls in love with just because she's pretty. Ginny should have been the plainer girl that Harry falls in love with because they connect so well. Instead, we get all that talk about Ginny being attractive, and NO demonstration of their connection. Really a pity, I say. mochajava13 wrote: "Then there's Harry and Ginny's shallow relationship. There was no substance there, just a lot of snogging and Harry obsessing over wanting to snog Ginny." Del replies: There isn't even that much snogging! For half the book Harry obsesses over snogging Ginny, and then as soon as they get together, JKR takes the focus away from their relationship completely. And honestly, Harry obsessing over snogging Ginny is pretty lame IMO. If Harry is supposed to be in love, real love, with Ginny because of her personality, then he should be day-dreaming about talking to her, sharing jokes with her, doing stuff (*real* stuff) with her. When I was a teenager and I was in love with a guy, I wouldn't particularly think of snogging him: it's all the stuff I would do with him that interested me. Going to the movies, doing our homework, walking in the streets, talking about everything and anything, and so on. But Harry just thinks of snogging Ginny. How is that supposed to be any kind of improvement compared to his crush on Cho??? mochajava13 wrote: "Fine if this is supposed to be a short-lived teenage romance, but if Ginny is supposed to be his One True Love, then I don't buy it." Del replies: Absolutely. And that's why Harry's mushy declaration at the end of HBP about his time with Ginny having been something out of somebody else's life (or something like that) just fell flat with me. His romance with Ginny seems to me to have had less effect on him than his romance with Cho had! mochajava13 wrote: "And I want to see why Harry's love interest is so special, but I don't see what's so special about Ginny. All reasons that Ginny is perfect for Harry (stands up to him, kind, gets through to him, brave, caring, etc) apply more to Hermione than to Ginny, in my opinion. And Hermione is portrayed as getting through to Harry, and getting an apology from him, much more than Ginny. Ginny helped Harry talk to Sirius in OotP, Hermione came up with a plan to help save Sirius. Ginny talked Harry out of his funk at Grimmauld Place, but Hermione is the one who got him out of his isolation so he could talk to Ginny in the first place." Del replies: This last one, in particular, is something that I always wondered about. I never understood why JKR had to bring Hermione back, when Ginny was there all the time. Ginny is supposed to love Harry, and she's supposed to have spunk and to not be afraid of him. So WHY didn't *Ginny* go and get Harry?? It was a golden opportunity to SHOW us that special relationship that Harry and Ginny were supposed to be starting to develop. But instead we get another example of Hermione being the female who cares most about Harry (she sacrificed her holidays with her parents to be with him) and who knows best how to handle him. mochajava13 wrote: "Which is why I don't get why on earth Hermione, who has the characteristics of Harry's "perfect girl" in spades, is only his best friend while Ginny is his love interest." Del replies: The hardcore Harry fans won't be happy, but I think the only reason Harry prefers Ginny is because Hermione always stands her own in front of Harry while Ginny often keeps silent and lets Harry have his way. The way I understand Harry, he does *not* want a girl who would be his complete equal. He wants a girl who will accept his decisions without too much fuss. And that's exactly what Ginny does. Honestly, can anyone imagine that Hermione would have listened to Harry's little splitting talk patiently, and would have accepted to let him go so easily? No she wouldn't have. She would have argumentated, she would have stormed, she would have countered every single one of his arguments, and Harry would have HATED that. Harry simply doesn't like the way Hermione won't systematically agree with him. We see him lying to her, keeping things from her, and so on, just so he won't have to *discuss* some things with her. And we saw him do the same thing with Cho, avoiding some subjects just in order to avoid getting into a serious discussion. Harry doesn't like getting into conflict with his girls. Hermione will *not* step down when she disagrees with Harry, Ginny will. That's the reason Harry fancies Ginny and not Hermione IMO. mochajava13 wrote: "It doesn't take much to portray romance in mystery novels; just look at Tommy and Tuppence in Agatha Christie's novels." Del replies: Oh, I love those two! They are so cute :-) Del From muellem at bc.edu Sat Jul 30 19:40:51 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:40:51 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > colebiancardi wrote: > vivian - please read my post > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135368 > there is a link in it that points to why the reason why Snape turned > *good* and the key is....Regulus > > original theory link: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 > > vmonte: > I also think that the reason Snape went to Dumbledore was because of > Regulus, but not for the reason you have (although of course you may > be right). > > I cannot see Snape being friends with anybody, sorry. (If they did > have a friendship it will turn out in book 7 that Snape was just > using Regulus for information.) We already know that Snape has a > habit of following people around, snooping, and working things for > his best interest. I believe that Snape was probably suspicious of > Regulus and somehow found out about the horcruxes. colebiancardi: good point on the friends issue. One of my thoughts, as I too sometimes think that about Snape, is that he does make good connections with the right *people* - the Malfoy's, for instance. Narcissa states that Snape "is Lucius's old friend" in Spinner's End, so I am assuming he CAN make friends, but not the buddy-buddy type. The reasons I think Snape & Regulus were *friends* are a) It is the right family(the Blacks, pure-blood & old), b) Lucius was probably already sniffing around Narcissa and she is a cousin to Regulus c) they are in the same house and it has been stressed that your house at Hogwarts is like your family and d) what a better way to dig into Sirius - being friends with his brother. And a BIG reason why Sirius still hated Snape to the day he died - especially if it was Snape who recruited Regulus to become a Death Eater. Notice that Snape's *friends* are pure-blood, unlike himself. He choose his friends based on their linage, not for any real liking - perhaps. > > So, either Regulus is indeed dead, or he is alive but not quite the > same man he was before. Hence the reason for the goat smell at the > bar and the illegal goat spell. Is he ill? Does he need to take > medication for the adverse effects of the lake potion? colebiancardi: I think that this was the opportunity that Snape needed - remember, DD stated in GoF, in the trial scene, that Snape turned spy for them at great personal risk. If Snape was the one who delivered Regulus to DD, against Voldemort's orders that Snape kill Regulus - that is a pretty big personal risk. Sirius stated in OotP that you didn't just leave the Death Eaters - it was a life-long commiment or you were dead. I do believe that Regulus is not the man he was before - he may have mentioned some babbling story about souls and splitting them to DD & Snape, but the true meaning of what Voldemort was planning to do - create 7 horcruxes - was not revealed until HBP. DD already knows about horcruxes, as Slughorn tells Riddle that it is a forbidden knowledge - very Dark Arts. If Slughorn knows about them, I am sure DD does as well. And Snape, being the dark arts guy, would know a thing or two about them as well, I would think. But what Voldy was really up to - not until now did DD know about it. > I still, however, like the idea that Regulus would have made Kreacher > drink the potion. It sounds so Slytherin to me. colebiancardi: and this could explain why Krecher is so unbalanced :) >Could be why Snape hates Neville (just like he hates Harry because of >his parents). colebiancardi: I think Snape hates everyone at this point - it's his persona. I posted it before, but I think that if he is such a powerful wizard and he is a spy who is risking his life, that teaching a bunch of dunderheads at Hogwarts must be dull and boring for him. No wonder he gets his kicks out of terrorizing the kids. > So, who the heck is Aberforth? Is he really Dumbledore's brother? It > would be great if this person turned out to be someone else entirely. > colebiancardi: shades of Mad-Eye Moony :) I take it from your postings that you are in the ESE!Snape catagory and you probably have guessed by now I am in the Good!Snape catagory or if worse comes to worse, the TW!Snape - Top Wizard - catagory. I would rather have Snape be a character who is always looking out for himself and his own priorities and once LV is defeated, try to step into the power void left behind, as DD & LV are now gone. But I would rather Snape be a nasty bastard who is still a loyal member of the OotP. >vmonte: >Sound familiar. Olivander, anyone? Nice place to work, no? He >remembers every wand sold and every student that purchased one. How >old is this guy? Did he also sell Tom Riddle his wand? colebiancardi: yes. SS/PS Diagon Alley - "Mr Ollivander fixed Harry with his pale stare. "I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every single wand. It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather - just one another. It is very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its brother - why, its brother gave you that scar" which brings up a point made in GoF - Harry and Voldemort cannot possibly be thinking of dueling. Their wands "will not work properly against each other," said Dumbledore. "If, however, the owners of the wands force the wand to do battle....a very rare effect will take place." - which is the Priori Incantatem spell. makes me wonder what the blazes Harry is going to use on Voldemort.... colebiancardi From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jul 30 19:56:28 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:56:28 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > wrote: > > Julie wrote: > > "According to JKR's interview with Mugglenet/TLC, she is writing > > according to a genre." > > > > Del replies: > > Agreed, but according to the same interview she also incorporates > what > > she feels needs to be there: > > > > > > > Emerson and Melissa were apparently satisfied with the romance, but > > I'm not. I can't be satisfied with a romance that happens > *entirely* > > off-screen. Especially not when on the other hand we see Ron and > > Lavender snogging every 5 pages during half the book (or so). > > > Julie now: > I see her use of romance to develop the adolescent character, and I > think this is why much of it is implied. Except, of course, for > the "snogging" (being American, I loved that word! Conjured a very > different image than simply "kissing" or "Making out." It was > almost like they were trying to suck each other's face off.) THe > snogging created tension in the characters that could not have been > created as well in implication. However, I don't think we are going > to get much of the characters romatic fantasies, internal dialogue, > etc., because this is a fantasy/action book. I do understand that > many people want much more of the romance, which is why this fanfic > is so popular. I just don't think they are going to be satisfied > with what they get in this septology. > Hickengruendler: But I don't think this is true. Even if we exclude the internal dialogue, and I might add that we got internal dialogue about several things in course of the series, including Quidditch, that does not explain why we didn't got any *external* dialogue between Harry and Ginny. Why don't we see them talking with each other? Or Harry confiding in her? Or them simply eating chocolate frogs together, enjoying their time? (see, it doesn't even have to be deep conversation. I just want to see them interacting with each other). Taking all the books together (before the Spiderman scene in the end), there is exactly one scene, where Harry and Ginny have a conversation without anyone else present, namely the one in the library in book 5. Heck, Harry had more pagetime alone with *Tonks* than with Ginny, at least they had two scenes together without anyone else present. And in one of them Tonks did not much more than telling Harry about her metamorphmagus powers and that she thinks that the Dursley house is a bit too clean. And yet this is a very lively and interesting scene. There is nothing in the books that suggest that Ginny is anything more than the object of Harry's teen lust. And the thing is, I wouldn't have minded this, since I find it pretty realistic and since it still has the opportunity to develop into more. But the problem is, that JKR obviously wants us to believe, that there is already more, as the last scene clearly suggests. And this is where she IMO failed. In the last scene Harry and Ginny talk, as if they were deeply in love, caring for each other on a level that goes way beneath the surface and that they are obviously soulmates. But I do not find this obvious at all, because there is no emotional investment leading to this. There is no bond between Harry and Ginny. I see a stronger bond (of course in a non-shippy way) between Harry and Neville or Harry and Luna or Harry and Remus, because of the times we see them interact. What I see is a teenage boy who lusted after a pretty girl, and a teenage girl, who is happy because her childhood-crush finally acknowledged her. Really, the relationship between them seems as "deep" to me as the one between Fleur Delacour and Roger Davies after the Yule Ball. You are saying that romance doesn't have as much room in such a story, but this can't explain why the romance between Ron and Lavender got more screentime than the one Harry had with his supposed "ideal" girl. And if JKR really wants to include such a noble hero scene like the one in the end, than she should make the reader care about this ship, so that the scene feels earned. And I can't say that I care about the H/G ship, or about Ginny as a character, very much. Hickengruendler From Nanagose at aol.com Sat Jul 30 19:51:00 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:51:00 EDT Subject: Origin of "Snivellus"/Snape at the end of OOTP Message-ID: <219.5da8237.301d3424@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135712 Christina: A couple of people have brought it up, and I'm not really sure if anyone's really answered the question properly as to what exactly the name "Snivellus" refers to. Snivellus is just the word "snivel" with an -us tacked on the end. Snivel means, "to sniffle," "to complain or whine tearfully," or "to run at the nose." Sorry if someone else already mentioned this! >>Alla: >>Agreed, also at home I have a link to Neri's brilliant post about >>Snape's not informing the Order about kids rushing to the ministry >>right away. >>Hmmm, what was he waiting for in light of what we know now? Christina: I've always found Snape's actions at the end of OotP very interesting. Yes, he waits a while before notifying the Order (Dumbledore says that Snape "becomes worried" when Harry doesn't return from the forest), but I think the timing prevents us from really drawing any important conclusions. If Snape is ESE!, and he was planning on waiting to inform the Order of Harry's whereabouts so that the Death Eaters could get the prophecy from him, he obviously failed. The Death Eaters were not given enough time to get the prophecy and get out before the Order arrived. However, it's interesting to note the situation at the MoM *right* at the point the Order *does* burst in the door: (OotP, US, page 801) "That was just a taster!" said Bellatrix, raising her wand so that Neville's screams stopped and he lay sobbing at her feet. She turned and gazed up at Harry. "Now, Potter, either give us the prophecy, or watch your little friend die the hard way!" Harry did not have to think; there was no choice. The prophecy was hot with the heat from his clutching hand as he held it out. Malfoy jumped forward to take it. Then, high above them, two more doors burst open and five more people sprinted into the room: Sirius, Lupin, Moody, Tonks, and Kingsley (end quote) At that point, Hermione was unconscious and nearly dead, Ron was completely out of it, Neville was being crucio-ed by Bellatrix, Ginny had a broken ankle, and Luna had been knocked out. Harry was literally handing the prophecy over to Lucius Malfoy when the doors flew open and the Order sprang into action. Had the Order arrived a mere 10 minutes later, Malfoy would have gotten the prophecy from Harry (and possibly killed him as well, as I'll address in a second). If Snape was really purposefully waiting to inform the Order of Harry's trip to the MoM, why didn't he just wait another 20 minutes? He had no way of knowing what was happening at the MoM, but if he really was ESE! and delaying talking to DD on purpose, wouldn't he have set up some sort of arrangment with Malfoy, along the lines of, "OK, LV's going to lure Harry to the MoM, where we're going to get the prophecy. We'll let you know when we're done." How much did Snape really know about LV's plans at the MoM? Finally, I'd like to bring up a very interesting quote I just stumbled upon. (OotP, US, page 785) "DO NOT ATTACK! WE NEED THE PROPHECY!" "He dares-- he dares--" shrieked Bellatrix incoherantly. "--He stands there-- filthy half-blood--" "WAIT UNTIL WE'VE GOT THE PROPHECY" (end quote) The "wait until we've got the prophecy" seems to suggest that Malfoy is planning on hurting (or killing?) Harry once they have the prophecy. Which makes Snape's, "Potter belongs to the Dark Lord!" really interesting. Has Voldemort's irritation with Harry increased between the two books to the point where he wants to kill him personally? Even if that were true, Snape stops the DEs from doing *any* damage to Harry. I highly doubt LV gave his people orders that said, "Do not touch one hair on Harry Potter's head." Christina From katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com Sat Jul 30 20:04:02 2005 From: katmac at katmac.cncdsl.com (lagattalucianese) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:04:02 -0000 Subject: ...The Young Princess? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135713 I'm new to the list, so pardon if this idea has been floated before: Has anyone ever suggested that perhaps Hermione was adopted? That would open up all kinds of interesting posibilities... --Gatta From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jul 30 20:27:12 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:27:12 -0000 Subject: Why Hermione is not right for Harry (Re: Ginny VS Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mochajava13" wrote: > Which is why I don't get why on earth Hermione, who has the > characteristics of Harry's "perfect girl" in spades, is only his > best friend while Ginny is his love interest. Hickengruendler: I snipped the rest of your post. If you read my other posts about this topic, you'll know that I agree with your opinion about the way H/G is portrayed. However, I think there's one big reason, why Harry and Hermione are not suited, (except for me loving the Ron/Hermione ship). Hermione is too serious. Of course she can have fun as well, but not enough for Harry's needs, IMO. Harry, after everything he went through and probably will go through in book 7, needs someone who could love just doing nothing, if necessary, than just enjoying their time. With whom he can just laugh, who maybe shares his hobbies (although not necessarily all of them, just some), who is able to keep him grounded (which Hermione is), but who also nows when to back-off (which Hermione does not). I do think that the Ginny JKR has in her mind, embodies most, if not all, of those qualities. I just think JKR did not succeed to bring this Ginny to paper. And I think she totally overdid it, when she made Ginny the most popular girl in school. (And rather suddenly, I might add. If I remember rightly, she went to the Yule Ball with Neville, because nobody else asked her). And yet I can see where you are coming off. Because JKR took the time, which the platonic relationship between Harry and Hermione needed. Just like she took the time to develop the friendship between Harry and Ron and the friendship leading into more between Ron and Hermione. That's why it sounds much truer than the supposed true love between Harry and Ginny. And that's why I think the last scene between Harry, Ron and Hermione in book 6 is very strong and compelling, instead of completely melodramatic and out-of-the-blue, like the one between Harry and Ginny. Hickengruendler From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat Jul 30 20:58:35 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:58:35 -0000 Subject: Missing Prefects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135715 Could someone please explain how the prefect system works. In book five Ron and Hermione get made prefects and it seems they are the only two in Gryffindor. They patrol the train, lead the first years to the dorm and it is only Hermione who takes on Fred and George. I thought at the time that being a prefect was only for one year. Now we are in year six and still they are the only prefects in Gryffindor that we hear of. Hermione again sees to the first years, but there is no reference to anyone helping her. Are we to assume that last year the sixth year prefects didn't do their job and that this year the fifth year prefects are also not performing their duties? I understand that these missing prefects are not important to the story line, but they are treated more like being nonexistant than missing. Obviously neither Luna or Ginny made Prefect for their year because neither had to go off with Ron and Hermione. Molly wasn't even disappointed at Ginny not making it. It seems that HBP was quite rushed and very much information left out of the book. Neil From mcjuels at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 20:22:47 2005 From: mcjuels at yahoo.com (mcjuels) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:22:47 -0000 Subject: Agapanthus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135716 I just Googled "Agapanthus" and found that it is, as I suspected, a flower. Also called the African Lily or Lily of the Nile. The name is derived from the Greek "agape" which means "love." I believe that this is generally understood to refer to Christian love, although, it could also refer to platonic, nonsexual, spiritual love. I wonder if Dumbledore is being ironic here. "It's a long time since my last visit," said Dumbledore, peering down his crooked nose at Uncle Vernon, "I must say, your agapanthus are flourishing." mcjuels From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 30 21:11:18 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:11:18 -0000 Subject: Ollivander (Re: Aberforth was another former DE, now living ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135717 > >vmonte: > >Sound familiar. Olivander, anyone? Nice place to work, no? He > >remembers every wand sold and every student that purchased one. > >How old is this guy? Did he also sell Tom Riddle his wand? > colebiancardi: > yes. SS/PS Diagon Alley - "Mr Ollivander fixed Harry with his pale > stare. "I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every > single wand...." > > Which brings up a point made in GoF - Harry and Voldemort cannot > possibly be thinking of dueling. Their wands "will not work properly > against each other," said Dumbledore. "If, however, the owners of > the wands force the wand to do battle....a very rare effect will > take place." - which is the Priori Incantatem spell. > Makes me wonder what the blazes Harry is going to use on > Voldemort.... Jen: On another forum* someone suggested Voldemort kidnapped Ollivander to force him to make a wand with another core. I'm not sure it works that way, though. Ollivander makes the wands beforehand, then matches the wand to the wizard. Wonder if he can be told to 'make such and such' wand and it would still have the power of the wand *meant* for that person? That leaves some room for Ollivander to sabotage LV, though! Course the minute LV figured out the wand wasn't exactly to his standards, he'd have to choose whether to kill Ollivander or force him to make another one. Interesting choice :). On a similar note, I still think Luna is related to Ollivander in some way, along her mother's side (the similar large 'silvery' eyes). Maybe if Ollivander doesn't survive, Luna will take up the trade? It seems like a perfect job for her, coaxing phoenixes to give up tail feathers and unicorns to allow her to pluck some hair. Imagine all the little ones going to Luna to get their very first wand!! What an entrance to the magical world. Jen, happy to think of Luna in such a creative and enormously important career. *(credit to RSFJenny at Hog's Head forum) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 21:17:44 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:17:44 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135718 "Krissy" wrote: > Also, did it bother anyone else that Hermione DID seem kind of stupid > in Potions? We're talking about a girl who made Poly-juice Potion in > her second year. I don't understand how she could do that then, but > suddenly seem quite inept and unable to work at potions in her sixth >year. zgirnius replies: Only by comparison to the HBP. In every single class she was better than anyone except Harry, and usually came out with a potion that was more or less correct, except when she ran out of time. And we don't know when the HBP wrote those notes. I mean, was he so brilliant that he walked into 6th year NEWT potions every day, did whatever potion assigned that day in a new, creative, and better way, and then in the spare time left in the class, wrote down notations of his improvements? I doubt it!! Even a complete genius would probably need some time for experimentation, to get exactly the right changes to the instructions/ingredients. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 21:22:43 2005 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:22:43 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore /Snape's guilt/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135719 houyhnhnm: > In chapter 2 of HBP we are shown what Snape has been telling Voldemort and the DEs. We are never shown explicitly what information Snape has > passed to the Order, but I think there is indirect evidence, in > chapter twenty-three of HBP, that Snape and Dumbledore have a > confidential relationship and that Snape has passed on a great deal of critical information. KathyK: But does the critical information flow both ways? I don't think so. Snape's passing information to Dumbledore is no evidence there was a mutual exchange of confidences. Snape's role was to spy on LV and keep Dumbledore up to date on what he and his merry band were up to. He told Dumbledore what he knew. Part of that may have been Voldemort's fit over the Diary's destruction, and the oddly close relationship LV shares with his Nagini. However, Snape's spying for the order does not mean Dumbledore was under any obligation to divulge his thoughts and plans to Snape, including the possible significance of those two pieces of intelligence. And there's no evidence I can see that Dumbledore has taken Snape into his confidence, particularly as JKR has said that Dumbledore had no confidant. Dumbledore, I believe, may have revealed bits and pieces to Snape and others in the Order as he saw necessary, but has kept his overall strategy and certain evidence about LV (horcruxes) to himself, sharing the prophecy, Tom's history, and the horcruxes with Harry only. KathyK From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 21:37:55 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:37:55 -0000 Subject: Nonverbal spells In-Reply-To: <005b01c594ee$29f9ef20$a1c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135720 > CathyD now: > As well, Snape said "Not all wizards can do this, of course; it is a question of concentration and mind power which some lack." If this wasn't just a jab a Harry, and not all wizards can perform non-verbal spells, why then were they expected in Transfiguration and Charms as well? It would certainly lead to failure for some students, wouldn't it? zgirnius: To be considered a basically qualified wizard in the WW, it suffices to pick up a few OWLS. The requirement to cast nonverbal spells in DADA, Charms, and Transfiguration (all the subjects, incidentally, where spoken spells are used, unless there is something in Arithmancy...in which case I would assume they are doing them there as well!) is only introduced at the NEWT level. Yes, some people will fail. And they will go on to careers in which they do not need high scores on the NEWTs in these subjects. I don't think we know enough about magic to speculate whether this is a reasonable requirement. (Except in DADA. I think we have seen enough to agree that this *is* an important skill in defense and duelling. If we were hiring Aurors, all things being equal we would prefer candidates who can do the nonverbal spells, and can anticipate them when they are cast by others.) But as for the other subjects...since we know the spell words are apparently not necessary to some wizards...maybe in developing a new spell you wouldn't necessarily start with a word and a gesture, and then try to find a spell that goes with them? Maybe you think of a desired effect, find a mental state/image which permits the accomplishment of the desired effect, and then pick words/wand gestures which work well with that to teach to people less gifted in this area? This is just one (completely picked out of a hat, no canon either way...) idea-if it *did* work this way, researchers in the areas of DADA/Charms/Transfiguration would more or less *have* to be able to do some magic nonverbally. From dlatchman at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 21:12:23 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:12:23 -0400 Subject: Timeturner question - comments anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135721 Auria: > If she does then why have they never thought to use it to reverse time and save Sirius in GoF and later perhaps to 'save' Dumbledore?? I know that the timeturners in the MoM were all destroyed at the end of OotP but Hermione's one may still have been at Hogwarts. A possible hole in the plot me thinks! Even if she had never returned the time turned the question would be would she actually use it to turn back time to change the events of the past to save Sirius and Dumbledore. As McGonadall(?) told her that the time turner is a dangerous device and many wizards have made grave mistakes in tampering with time. We know Hermoine. She will not break the rules to change the events of the past especially since she knows that there are grave consequences. David L. From dlatchman at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 21:20:01 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:20:01 -0400 Subject: Voldemort's MOM possession (was Harry Potter; intentional Horcrux?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135722 Brothergib: > 2. Bearing in mind all the evidence that links Harry to Voldemort, the obvious deduction is that Harry IS a Horcrux. I am sure that Voldemort would think that DD would make that guess too. I doubt that Harry is a Horcrux and I would go as far as to say he can't even be an unintentional one. If anything I think we can all safely eliminate the possibility of him being an intentional Horcrux at all. When Voldemort heard the prophesy he knew that a child would be born that will defeat him one day. So this child is a threat to his existence whether he has Horcruxes or not. The guy is proud and arrogant but not stupid. So he will have plans to kill Harry and not keep him alive. I am guessing that you will need to keep the person/animal alive if you intend to have a living Horcrux. Honestly, not to bash anyone but I think the Harry is a Horcrux is being taken a little too far. Just because a snake is one doesn't mean that Harry is another. Voldemort usually chooses Horcrux on some special significance, one where there is some connection to power. So far he has tried to choose artifacts with some connection to the founders of Hogwarts, with he exception of the diary. I can't see the special significance of Harry other than he is a threat. Also, it would take time to make Harry a Horcrux. (I imagine). When everyone was at GH on the night Harry's parents died and Voldemort gave Lily the option to stand aside I doubt that he would let her stand aside and let her look on as he made her son into a Horcrux. It also throws away the secrecy factor. She will know about something that he has worked hard for no one to know. David L. From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 21:57:31 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timeturner question - comments anyone? In-Reply-To: <1122739895.2751.27275.m34@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050730215731.79845.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135723 Auria wrote: > Does anyone know what happened to Hermione's timeturner which she had throughout PoA? A possible hole in the plot me thinks! Lynda says: Hermione gave it back to Professor McGonagall. On page 430 of the U.S. softcover Scholastic edition, she tells Harry, "...I can't stand another year like this one. That time-turning was driving me mad. I've handed it in. Without Muggle Studies and Divination I'll be able to have a normal schedule again." So, it went back to McGonagall who took whatever measures she deemed necessary to keep it secure. Its possible it was returned (or sent) to the MoM. Rowling did go to some lengths to explain the possible problems with using such a device as is illustrated when Harry and Hermione nearly bump into their other selves in the relevant section of PoA. Lynda From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 23:12:07 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:12:07 -0000 Subject: Lupin's character development and why Snape's pseudonym? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > In "the Order of the Phoenix", I believe it was chapter 37 "The > > Lost Prophesy", DD says to Harry "I trust Severus Snape". In "the > Half-Blood Prince" Snape boasts to Bellatrix and Narcissa: "Dumbledore > > > trusts Severus Snape". > > I think it's just to emphasise that he does not regard the him who is > trusted by snape as the real him. He may do, but obviously doesn't > want Bella to see that. It's a method of stresseing that he has > compartmentalised his life and that he is "loyal" to LV, IMO. Either > that or he's turned into one of those irriatting ipie types who always > talk about themselves like that. "I really want to discover who the > real snapesangel is, man" etc. If in the next book he goes off to > nicaragua to swim withthe porpoise or soemthing, we'll know, lol. > > Snapesangel The point could be made that Snapie doesn't consider himself "Severus Snape" but the Half-Blood Prince. The term Prince, of course, implies there is a King or Queen still living--which I suppose there could have been when Snape wrote the name on his Advanced Potions book. Tom Marvolo Riddle changed his name to (I Am) Lord Voldemort, which makes all the sense in the world for an ego like his. I'm sure there is more to this than Snape just having delusions of grandeur or just making up a play on words with his mother's maiden name, unless he is lying about being the Half-Blood Prince to throw Harry off and we still won't know the true identity until book seven. From samwisep at yahoo.com Sat Jul 30 22:34:51 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:34:51 -0000 Subject: Fawkes and Bill's injuries Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135725 HI Potterphiles! When I first read HBP I was convinced that Madam Pomfrey or someone would have Fawkes come and cry over Bill's werewolf injuries, thus healing them. I understand Fawkes was in mourning for Dumbledore though...did anyone else think this while reading the book? Snapeo'phile From saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 00:13:14 2005 From: saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:13:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135726 Did anyone else think that when they read Harry's last set of detentions with Snape, when he had to file the punishments, that he was going to come across the infamous James-saves-Snape's life incident and how DD dealt with it? Well it didn't happen then, but I am wondering if Harry will go back and find out about that. Also, isn't it interesting that Snape wanted him to do that particular era. I can't think that Snape wouldn't have realised that Harry might come across that incident. Did he set it up for Harry to find out about what happened? If so, why? I also think that how DD dealt with that incident is highly significant to Snape's subsequent reactions to the Marauder's, towards DD and eventually Harry himself. What did DD explain to Snape about life debts? More significantly, why was Sirius allowed to stay at Hogwarts and not expelled, what punishment did he recieve? If I was Snape, knowing that someone had deliberately set out to either kill me or at least make me into a werewolf for the rest of my life, I would be pretty pissed off if they were only given a detention. I wouldn't be that impressed with DD - I think favouratism is a (possibly mis- spelt) word that might come to mind. How DD dealt with this could set the seal on Snape's subsequent actions. Did DD force Sirius and Snape to make some sort of agreement? I'm not saying UV here, I don't think DD would have done that with two 15/16 year old boys. But I've always thought that this was going to be very significant, and I think JKR, in the detention scene, has set us up for Harry to be able to find out. Any thoughts? Saraquel From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 00:17:19 2005 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:17:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black: PoA Quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Page 370, U.S. paperback edition > > Sirius to Peter: > "I'll tell you why," said Black. "Because you never did anything for > anyone unless you could see what was in it for you. Voldemort's been > in hiding for fifteen years, they say he's half dead. You weren't > about to commit murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a > wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power, were you? You'd want to > be quite sure he was the biggest bully in the playground before you > went back to him, wouldn't you? Why else did you find a wizard family > to take you in? Keeping an ear out for news, weren't you, Peter? Just > in case your old protector regained strength, and it was safe to > rejoin him..." > > vmonte: > Did Snape switch sides because he realized that Dumbledore was on his > last legs? > > Vivian Sue: Or did he switch sides at all? We still don't know whose side he is on and we will be arguing about this for two years till JKR tells us, once and for all. If your implication, here, is that Snape is a coward like Peter, I beg to differ. Whatever we think of him - and I sure wouldn't want him as my teacher if I was a teenager , I was too much like Hermione - he isn't a coward, IMO. Whoever he is working for, he has been in enormous danger - double agents always are. When he left for his mission at the end of GoF, we all suspected he was going to have to go back and persuade LV he was really working for him - a LV who might well zap him immediately, without bothering to ask questions. While DD wouldn't kill a Snape who turned out to be a double agent for the enemy, he would probably end up in Azkaban - an Azkaban guarded by Dementors until recently. I wouldn't be in his place for millions! There is also his clear contempt for Peter - yes, Peter was one of the Gang of Four which tormented the young Snape, but the impression I got was that the contempt was as much for his cowardice as anything else. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 00:18:11 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:18:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why Hermione is not right for Harry (Re: Ginny VS Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135728 > Hickengruendler: > > I snipped the rest of your post. If you read my other posts about > this topic, you'll know that I agree with your opinion about the way > H/G is portrayed. > > However, I think there's one big reason, why Harry and Hermione are > not suited, (except for me loving the Ron/Hermione ship). Hermione is > too serious. Of course she can have fun as well, but not enough for > Harry's needs, IMO. Harry, after everything he went through and > probably will go through in book 7, needs someone who could love just > doing nothing, if necessary, than just enjoying their time. With whom > he can just laugh, who maybe shares his hobbies (although not > necessarily all of them, just some), who is able to keep him grounded > (which Hermione is), but who also nows when to back-off (which > Hermione does not). Alla: Yes, yes, definitely. As I said earlier I have a lot of trouble picturing Hermione as "perfect girl" for Harry. Don't get me wrong, I find Hermione to be MUCH better written character than Ginny is, but at the same time she is my least favorite member of the trio. I mean I love them together, but Hermione is definitely my number three. It is wierd though because just as many women on this list ( forgive me if my assumption is not correct), I can identify with Hermione in her desire to do the very best academically. But I absolutely dislike her bossiness, I dislike it SO much. It is just my personal pet peeve, I don't take well to my friends ordering me around. I hated it when I was younger and I really dislike it now. I will listen to advice, I will not listen to the orders at al, in fact when I was younger I had an annoying tendency to do exactly the opposite thing when was ordered around ( not in the work setting of course :-), in my social life setting). Right, back to Hermione. I absolutely agree with you that she is way too serious and Harry, if he survives the series, will need someone who would back down and give him the space to heal if needed, and who could laugh with him if needed. Even after six books, I don't see that Hermione can have much fun and I am not just talking with Harry, with anybody. I am not saying that those are major flaws of character, not at all or that Hermione is not a good friend to Harry and Ron, but love interest for Harry? I don't agree. Personally, I am glad that Ron had his fling with Lavender, sixteen year old are supposed to have fun, no? As to Ginny, well... It is very wierd though because in OOP, I could accept new Ginny rather easily based on the idea that Harry simply did not know her well before, so I did not have a problem with her "new and Improved" personality. HBP though is such a different story. Hickengruendler: > > I do think that the Ginny JKR has in her mind, embodies most, if not > all, of those qualities. I just think JKR did not succeed to bring > this Ginny to paper. And I think she totally overdid it, when she > made Ginny the most popular girl in school. (And rather suddenly, I > might add. If I remember rightly, she went to the Yule Ball with > Neville, because nobody else asked her). Alla: Yes, I am agreeing with this assesment unfortunately. I like H/G, I want then ot happen, but I also think that writing for them in HBP was not good at all and that last scene as you said, fell apart totally. The annoying thing to me is that even though JKR promised to treat romance as secondary thing, I know that she CAN do it well even as secondary thing, because the last scene between Bill ( who was not even talking) and Fleur and Molly had SO much more spark, IMO, than any interaction between Harry and Ginny. Sigh... Hickengruendler: And that's why I think the last scene > between Harry, Ron and Hermione in book 6 is very strong and > compelling, instead of completely melodramatic and out-of-the- blue, > like the one between Harry and Ginny. Alla: Yes,indeed. Their friendship is SO well done. I wish JKR would stick with it. I really hope that writing for Harry/Ginny will be better in book 7. I am liking Luna more and more as Harry's potential love interest. I think I had been talking to Phoenixgod too much :-) Did I mention that I used not to care much for SHIPS between kids? :- ) JMO of course, Alla. From Nanagose at aol.com Sun Jul 31 00:56:20 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (Nanagose at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:56:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident Message-ID: <129.61fd50e9.301d7bb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135729 >>Saraquel: >>Also, isn't it interesting that Snape wanted him to do that particular >>era. I can't think that Snape wouldn't have realised that Harry might >>come across that incident. Did he set it up for Harry to find out >>about what happened? If so, why? >>.... >>I also think that how DD dealt with that incident is highly >>significant to Snape's subsequent reactions to the Marauder's, towards >>DD and eventually Harry himself. Christina: I was dying to know how this incident played out, and I really thought that we'd finally find out in HBP. Like you said, all the unanswered questions could really tell us a lot about Snape's current motivations. What did DD really say to keep Snape quiet about Lupin? "Even though you almost died at the hands of your fellow student, don't tell anyone his buddy is a werewolf or I'll expel you"? It really doesn't seem reasonable, if you think about it. Snape might have been breaking the rules also (the students weren't allowed to go near the whomping willow, right?), but still. It actually didn't occur to me that Harry could find that particular record during his detention, although looking back, that would make a lot of sense. I don't know if Snape really meant for Harry to see the Whomping Willow Incident record during the detention as much as he meant for Harry to just see more evidence that his father was kind of a prat. Snape knows how much insulting James gets to Harry. I've always thought that the detention scene had more to do with a clarification on JKR's part than any real plotline developments; that is, proof that the Marauders (or at least Sirius and James) were, to an extent, bullies in general, and that their mischief was not limited to Snape. After reading "Snape's Worst Memory" and Sirius's explanation for his and James' actions toward Snape (their mutual hatred was just "one of those things"), it's all too easy to think that James just picked on Snape a bit and was well-behaved toward everyone else. Now we know that's not the case. Christina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bunnyc at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 31 00:22:25 2005 From: bunnyc at optusnet.com.au (Bunny) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:22:25 +1000 Subject: Dumbledore - is he or isn't he? Message-ID: <002101c59565$ed5e4160$37a3ecdc@dee> No: HPFGUIDX 135730 I'd like to add my tuppenceworth to this debate: 1. I was undecided whether DD's death had been staged or not, until I read JKR's interview in which she quite clearly states that whereas she was 'a little teary' over Sirius, she was 'extremely upset' at the end of the Half Blood Prince. 2. She's warned us in the past that we shouldn't trust Snape too much I wonder what the 'Draco lovers' think of him now....... where he stamped on the defenceless Harry's face and broke his nose justified what I have always thought of him.....yuck! But even worse was when he was describing it and laughing about it to other Slytherins. In keeping with this, maybe if we stopped thinking of Snape as the highly popular Alan Rickman, and thought of him as JKR describes him: sallow, greasy hair, yellowed teeth, grey undies, it will be easier to believe that he's really evil. Come on........the guy's really really cruel and hurtful to almost everyone. Bunny. From rytal at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 31 00:34:44 2005 From: rytal at yahoo.co.uk (Auria) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:34:44 -0000 Subject: Timeturner question - comments anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135731 Sandra writes: > ... anybody in books 4 and 5 could be saved, and the great big kop-out in book 6 whereby it's claimed that 'all' of the TTs were broken or destroyed, is ludicrous. > JKR opened a can of worms once she started incorporating the concept of unregulated timetravel into the stories... > As for Hermione's TT, she apparently handed it back... Hi Sandra I totally agree with you about JK Rowling's use of time travel - it certainly leaves a hugely loose cannon! I'm so glad that someone else feels the same way - I was having a conversation with my brother the other day about how I think PoA would have worked better without the time-travel in it ie. that they manage to save Buckbeak and Sirius the first time round (although PoA is still my favorite book!!). Using time travel in any story can often seem a cop-out and has huge potential for error, especially in such a long plot as the Harry Potter series. As you rightly say, the MoM has a whole room of time exploration so logically why can't they manipulate time to go back and stop LV from ever becoming so powerful? I'm sure if JK Rowling was ever questioned on this she would give some explanation of how time-travel is dangerous (as quoted by Hermione in PoA) but it still doesn't give a satisfactory answer when it comes to the MoM's abilities. Its also crazy that if time-travel is so dangerous why is Hogwarts allowing a student to have a time-turner! You are absolutely right that JKR opened a enormous can of worms with this. Auria a.k.a Rita :-) From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 01:05:23 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:05:23 EDT Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore /Snape's guilt Message-ID: <7e.6e8b46db.301d7dd3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135732 Alla: Could you clarify, please? Many Snape defenders are saying that Dumbledore was dying anyway ( either from the after effect of un/horcruxing (??) the ring or from drinking the potion in the cave, that is why Snape only did what was to come anyway. I don't think I am buying DD asking Snape to do somemthing so evil that would hurt his soul even under those conditions ( Dumbledore dying soon anyway), but are you arguing that Dumbledore simply asked Snape to kill him, even if he was not dying in order to sacrifice himself for some game plan? If you are arguing it, could you explain to me some details of such game plan? I understand that this is all speculation, but I am primarily interested in how WW would be better served with Dumbledore dead Julie says: One theory is that Snape didn't actually AK Dumbledore. We know it didn't look like most of the AKs we've seen--Dumbledore flew off the tower instead of dropping dead, and in death his eyes were closed and his expression peaceful. Non-verbal spells were heavily emphasized in HBP, and it may be that Snape used a nonverbal spell while speaking the AK. We don't know if this is possible, of course, but neither do we know that it is impossible. I also wonder if Snape could have performed an incomplete AK. Perhaps Snape didn't really *mean* it, thus couldn't do a full AK, but he and DD were aware that an incomplete one would do the trick if DD was already dying. If either of these cases are true, then some doubt is cast on whether Snape has actually performed an Unforgivable, and if he didn't, then his soul wouldn't be stained. And if Dumbledore knows this, then he can ask Snape to kill him without endangering Snape's soul. This does make one wonder why Snape had a look of hatred and disgust on his face, and why Dumbledore had to beg him to do it. But even if it isn't a full Unforgivable, Snape is still delivering the killing blow to the man who's probably been as close to a father to Snape as anyone (assuming the man in Snape's pensieve memory was his father and wasn't much of one). That would still be very hard for him to do, if he really is DumbledoresMan!Snape. Whether any of this turns out to be true or not, we'll see. But is workable. Also, I don't think we have to answer why the WW world would be better off with Dumbledore dead, because it WOULDN'T be. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that isn't something Dumbledore is necessarily considering. In his estimation, if it's between Dumbledore and Snape (by letting Snape die due to the Unbreakable Vow), then Snape is more valuable to the WW and to Harry Potter's defeat of Voldemort. One of them had to go, and Dumbledore chose himself. And if Dumbledore decided this before the school year started (if Snape immediately told him about the Unbreakable Vow), it could explain why he continued with the second Horcrux mission. Even if he knew it was likely to kill him in the end, he would figure he was on his way out anyway to keep Snape alive, so he may have done it primarily to train Harry (with the bonus of getting rid of one more horcrux). Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smollon at pacbell.net Sun Jul 31 00:58:09 2005 From: smollon at pacbell.net (Sandra Mollon) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is Snape really? Message-ID: <20050731005809.17518.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135733 I am new to this group--so I beg your consideration if some of these ideas have been discussed previously. I think that HBP really brings more information on Snape that makes that character very interesting...esp given the ending. Here are my thoughts: Snape is a loner, most likely, who never really fit into any group. He is a Slytherin, a house whose members seem to value pure-blood lines (and frequently use the term mudblood to negatively denote half-blood or muggle born wizards), and yet his notation on the potions book naming himself "Half-blood Prince" (with Prince being his mother's maiden name), seems to indicate some pride (?) in that status. It makes me wonder--does he really feel like a part of the Slytherins? Next, he seems to never get along with anyone in both Hogwarts and the Order of the Phoenix that well, and is distrusted except by Dumbledore, who probably saved him from Azkaban by vouching for him after the fall of LV. I also think that other DE distrust him as well, and HBP seems to show this in his conversation with Malfoy's mom. My point here is that he probably doesn't really feel a great attachment to the DE either. He seemed to have some regret over telling LV the part of the Prophesy that he overheard, when he realized that James and Lily were in danger (and later killed). I suspect that he felt something for Lily, as she certainly seemed to have treated him respectfully in the Pensieve (Snapes worst memory) while James and the others were taunting him. Maybe she was one of the few who did. But this is countered with his relentlessly horrible treatment of Harry for the past 6 years. Maybe the argument that he looks more like his dad than his mom, and therefore was more greatly despised by Snape could be made. So, in the end of HBP (SPOILER ALERT) I see him act quickly, and ruthlessly to kill the weakened Dumbledore. An action which he needed to do to preserve his own life due to the unbreakable vow--and yet...when he certainly was able to do so, he did not kill, torture, or kidnap Harry and take him back to LV. I just keep seeing a pattern of opposite behaviors. One minute you are certain he is evil, and the next you are not so sure. Even in Sorcercer's Stone--it was Snape protecting Harry at the Quidditch match when Quirrell was attempting to knock him off of his broom. I have read some posts which seem to favor the idea of Snape AK ing Dumbledore as Dumbledore's idea. I disagree with this for a couple of reasons. First, although I think it is out of character for Dumbledore to plead for his life, Dumbledore knew that Harry would witness that action helplessly, and he would want to protect Harry from that horrible third loss of a loved one (and Harry truly did love him, I have no doubt). Next, and most importantly, I believe that Snape would act without a moments hesitation to do whatever he felt necessary to achieve his ends. He had a motive for killing Dumbledore--saving his own life. JKR is really leaving us hanging on this character...really I think that it could easily go either way in Book 7 with Snape. Sandym828 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 01:13:11 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:13:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: <129.61fd50e9.301d7bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135734 > Christina: > > I was dying to know how this incident played out, and I really thought that > we'd finally find out in HBP. Like you said, all the unanswered questions > could really tell us a lot about Snape's current motivations. What did DD really > say to keep Snape quiet about Lupin? "Even though you almost died at the > hands of your fellow student, don't tell anyone his buddy is a werewolf or I'll > expel you"? It really doesn't seem reasonable, if you think about it. Snape > might have been breaking the rules also (the students weren't allowed to go near > the whomping willow, right?), but still. Alla: Hmmmm, in light of our very limited knowledge of The Prank, I submit that Dumbledore's words to Snape may have sounded as following " Since you went in to the Shack, knowing that Remus was a werewolf, you bear at least partial responsibility for coming there in the first place". " my memory is as good as ever" - I am still dying to know what did he mean by that. Am I speculating ? Sure, I am, but I just cannot forget the focus on Snape reading the werewolf question on their DADA exam and him assigning the same question to Harry's class. I also would not put past post-HBP Snape figuring out who Remus was AND wanting to kill him. Why? Let's say he loved Lily and thought that Remus could have a chance with her... Ain't speculation fun? :-) Just me of course, Alla From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 01:51:32 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday Harry!! Message-ID: <20050731015132.69036.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135735 *singing* Happy Birthday Harry, Happy birthday dear Harry, happy birthday to you!! July 31st, Harry's Birthday, how old is he now? about 25 or something? I just checked the Lexicon and it says Harry was born in 1980. I wonder if he'll ever get to 25. I think he will, I've said many times, and I say it again, Harry cannot die, he's our heroe, and the heroe doesn't die, his best friend may die, or his girl, or even his mentor, but never the heroe. 25, that's about 4 years older than his mon and dad when they had him, by age 25 Sirius had already spent 3 years in Azkaban, Tom Riddle had killed all his family... It makes 25 look like "old". I wonder what Harry will have done by age 25: "killed" Voldemort twice, A beautiful green-eyed red-hair baby girl, a very accomplished Auror, Best man in Hermione and Ron's wedding... I wish I could see him then ;) So Harry, I raise my glass of Champagne to you, may you live a long life!!! And let's not forget it's also Jo's birthday!! Happy 40th Birthday Jo, May all your dreams come true, and please don't kill Harry Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Sun Jul 31 02:00:05 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:00:05 -0000 Subject: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135736 Cindy wrote: > Since Snape is still alive, he either killed Dumbledore, or he faked > his way through the Unbreakable Vow. I think it has to be either one > or the other, but I have been wrong before! Albus has passed away, passed on, he has expired, he has gone on, crossed over, he is dead. Severus AKed the old man. Albus could not fool the Merfolk, the Centaurs, the Wizard World all at once. And if he could, and did, for what cause was this great, this universal deception? I don't get it. If they all think he's gone, what advantage is there? Perhaps, IF you assume Snape is the supreme confidente of Albus and knows about the horcruxes, and possibly the prophecy, AND you assume Harry is not informed of this super confidence for a good reason, AND you assume that Albus living a few more minutes or hours would somehow compromise the main plan to destroy the horcruxes, then there could be a bone fide Saint Snape reason to AK him. Another possibility is that Albus, at that moment told Snape everything, in his mind. But that still leaves Snape's double agent role to be explained. Naturally, I don't buy any of that. As I have asked before and ask again to the list - what would explain Snape's revulsion and hatred, Albus changed tone (such that it startled Potter) on the Astronomy Tower? In spite of vague comparisons to mercy killing, there has been no explanation that makes sense, other than, perhaps, that Snape has broken under the general distrust of the faculty, students, of the whole wizard world, and holds the old man in contempt. Albus has forced, or tried to force, respect for Snape, because Albus is trying to make Snape, the abused kid Snape, who claimed he wanted to get better, who expressed remorse, a better person? It has failed dismally, because of Snape's fear, his self-hatred. If Snape liked Lily, or Lily was nice to him, and he called her "Mudblood", and this is his worst memory, and the "mudblood" part the worst part, as I've said before, then this indicates a very hurt, very hurtful human being, who has had a tendancy to lash out at people who he cares about. Sounds like abuse symptoms. It comes out a bit the way he relates to students, don't you think - though, apparently, this can be moot. When Albus tells Snape "you know what I must now ask you to do" at the end of GOF, that conversation doesn't pick up again, in our information, until Hagrid's overheard convesation "what if I don't want to do it anymore?" This, I submit, is what Snape and Dumbledore are talking about. Not the Unbreakable Vow, because the language doesnt't fit that scenario AT ALL. dan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 02:03:12 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:03:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Did anyone else think that when they read Harry's last set of > detentions with Snape, when he had to file the punishments, that > he was going to come across the infamous James-saves-Snape's life > incident and how DD dealt with it? Well it didn't happen then, > but I am wondering if Harry will go back and find out about that. > > Also, isn't it interesting that Snape wanted him to do that > particular era. I can't think that Snape wouldn't have realised > that Harry might come across that incident. Did he set it up for > Harry to find out about what happened? If so, why? Jen: Good thinking, saraquel :). I didn't catch that possibility while reading the detention scene, but JKR did promise we'll hear more about it (World Book Day chat): Kyla: "What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?" JK Rowling replies -> "Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course." Saying we'll hear more makes it sound like Snape and Lupin gave Harry an incomplete account. I don't think either one was hiding something, but they don't know what precipitated Sirius telling Snape about the tunnel, or how James actually saved Snape. But maybe you're right the cards will be the vehicle to hear the story. We're slowly losing all the people who could tell Harry about it in person! So did Sirius loathe Snape in part because he and Regulus hung out together in Slytherin? I don't think Snape actually recruited Regulus to join the DE's because Sirius would have mentioned it, telling Harry that Snape was the reason Regulus joined. Sirius made it sound like Regulus' idea. Back to the detentions, I mainly viewed those secenes as 'rubbing it in' moments for Snape, to remind Harry how James and Sirius acted at school. I've always wondered about that---what does Snape hope to accomplish by continually bad-mouthing James, does he actually want Harry to dislike his dad or what? It's just so persistent and obsessive that it seems like he's trying to sway Harry. Jen From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 02:29:58 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:29:58 -0000 Subject: HBP contest -- Grading in progress Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135738 Hello All, Grading the entries is proceeding swimmingly, like the Giant Squid swims, of course. The Minion Horde is ruthlessly cutting entries to shreds in accordance with the Ruthless Rubric. It's taken me forever to create the rubric and disperse the entries to the Minion Horde, so this tardiness is my fault. On the upside, I've discovered the secret to success in the consulting biz: Get involved in a huge, fun project (like running a psychic contest) with neat people depending on you and poof! Your other business that feeds you will take off like gangbusters. Established clients will triple their business. New clients will call you out of the blue and need huge amounts of work in the next six weeks and personal meetings in far-flung cities. It works like a gem, I tell you, like a necklace set with cursed gems. TK -- TigerPatronus -- who for business reasons is figuring out more HP-related contests to run. From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 02:34:29 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (Juli) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CIAO DOLCE VITA (Longish) Message-ID: <20050731023429.62505.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135739 I just found this on The Leaky Cauldron: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2005_07_24.php#007388 The fact that Snape was the last person to actually attack the late Headmaster of Hogwarts school, one Albus Dumbledore, (150 years old) seems not to have registered in the least, with certain jury members who were carrying, "Snape is Innocent" banners. It is a failing of our justice systems across the world when, the man with the smoking wand, is allowed to walk free, and claim innocence. Especially, when previously the wizarding community have, on no evidence what so ever consigned other wizards such as the late Sirius Black to years in prison. One can only assume the jury were paid handsomely to bring in their not guilty verdict. It is highly likely that the jury was rigged, as most of those pronouncing him not guilty on all charges were dressed in black, with the odd flash of green and sported long black hair and were drooling slightly at the corner of their mouths. [end quote] This verdict was given by the Grand Jury at Accio. I quite frankly agree with them, I too believe he's not guilty, not "innocent", just not guilty. He is far from innocent, I bet he hasn't been innocent since age 5 (pretty much like George and Fred). This has been discussed a lot, and I bet we'll discuss it for the next 2 years, but I believe he is still loyal to Dumbledore, like he's been for about 16 years. The canon isn't very clear, but my gut tells me he's still a "good" guy, nasty, but good. I just don't know how the Order will be informed, did Dumbledore leave a letter explaining everything? or will his portrait tell Professor McGonadall his reasons? Or my favorite theory: He will return, and he will do so as a phoenix. Since forever there has been a relation between DD and the Phoenix: His Patronus is a phoenix, he?s one of the few people who?s ever had one as a pet, they understand each other, his organization is called ?The Order of the Phoenix? There?s this paragraph I found very interesting: ?Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore?s body and the table upon which he lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished? (Ch 30 P 645). I remember I had read months ago something about how a phoenix is a man (a person) who after he?s died, becomes a phoenix. (It was in a post last year, but it?s kinda hard to find). There are even some theories that say that Godric Gryffindor is actually Fawkes. So starting from there, he?s my theory Dumbledore is not dead, he?s merely changed, he?s become a phoenix. Also, why did Severus AK?d Dumbledore? (All references from Scholastic) ? ?No?, said Dumbledore, ?it is Professor Snape whom I need ? [ ] ?Severus,? said Dumbledore clearly. ?I need Severus ? ?P 580 Ch 27 ? ?I haven?t got any options?? said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white as Dumbledore. ?I?ve got to do it! He?ll kill me! He?ll kill my whole family!? ? P 591 Ch 27 ? But somebody else had spoken Snape?s name, quite softly. ?Severus ? The sound frighten Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way [ ] Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. ?Severus please ? Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. ?Avada Kedavra!? ? P 595-596 Ch 27 So I think this means Dumbledore begged Snape to kill him, and why? First, to keep Draco from doing it himself, Second, Dumbledore knew he was about to die anyway, so better to do it quick and painlessly. Also to maintain Snape's cover. I think Draco Malfoy will change sides. He?ll return to Voldemort, he?ll be threaten, tortured, and who knows what else, he?ll remember Dumbledore and his goodness, how up to the last moment he was trying to save him. He will go to Harry, Ron, and Hermione and offer his help, since Harry already has a bit of faith in him, he will allow him to do so. And the four of them, together, will continue Dumbledore?s quest, they will find the Horcruxes, destroy them, and ultimately destroy Voldemort. It all can be summarized in: CIAO DOLCE VITA : Contrary to the Impressions he isn't gOne. Dumbledore Only sLeeps. Cause Everyone loVes hIm, he'll Turn into A phoenix. Juli Aol: jlnbtr Yahoo: jlnbtr MSN: julibotero at msn.com http://360.yahoo.com/jlnbtr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 02:45:14 2005 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:45:14 -0000 Subject: Nonverbal spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135740 > bboyminn: >I seriously doubt we will ever see the AK-Killing Curse cast without words. zgirnius: Actually, we've already seen it in the series. In the duel between LV and DD at the MOM in OotP. Voldemort uses it several times. The characteristic jet of green light is mentioned, and in one case LV engages in conversation as he casts the spell, which is identified specifically as the killing curse. The only time he appears to use the words is the very first time, when he tries to AK Harry. My assumption is that this is becasue he sees no need to mess with the more difficult nonverbal stuff if the opposition is Harry, but wants the time savings it gives him when dealing with Dumbledore. From Nanagose at aol.com Sun Jul 31 02:14:27 2005 From: Nanagose at aol.com (spotsgal) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:14:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135741 >>Christina: >>What did DD really say to keep Snape quiet about Lupin? "Even >>though you almost died at the hands of your fellow student, don't >>tell anyone his buddy is a werewolf or I'll expel you"? It really >>doesn't seem reasonable, if you think about it. >>Alla: >Hmmmm, in light of our very limited knowledge of The Prank, I >submit that Dumbledore's words to Snape may have sounded as following > > " Since you went in to the Shack, knowing that Remus was a > werewolf, you bear at least partial responsibility for coming there > in the first place". Christina again: Ack, I suspect I wasn't very clear in my original post. I meant, what did DD say to Snape to keep him quiet when he *first* learned Lupin was a werewolf? When Sirius told him to go the whomping willow during the prank, Snape didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf. It was only when James was pulling him back that he spotted Lupin... (PoA, US paperback, page 357) "...Snape glimpsed me though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I was..." (end quote) So Dumbledore must have had a little chat with Young Snape to make sure he'd keep quiet, but how did he get him to do so? Snape could have been killed--I wouldn't imagine he'd be too willing to keep anyone's secret after that. Christina PS- I have no idea why my text is wrapping so oddly, but I'm writing this one online (as opposed to my AOL account), so I'm hoping it works From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 03:17:52 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:17:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's detention - James saved Snape's life incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135742 > Christina again: > I meant, what did DD say to Snape to keep him quiet when he *first* learned Lupin was a werewolf? When Sirius told him to go the whomping willow during the prank, Snape didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf. It was only when James was pulling him back that he spotted Lupin... > > (PoA, US paperback, page 357) > "...Snape glimpsed me though, at the end of the tunnel. He was > forbidden by Dumbledore to tell anybody, but from that time on he knew what I was..." (end quote) Alla: Actually, I submit that we cannot be sure of that. That is what Remus thinks. Of course he would not know if Snape figured out who he was earlier, I just think that "werewolf question" could be a loaded gun, which may shoot at one point or not. I also think that JKR hints of Remus liking Lily and not denying that Snape did that too could play into something too. Christina: > So Dumbledore must have had a little chat with Young Snape to make > sure he'd keep quiet, but how did he get him to do so? Snape could > have been killed--I wouldn't imagine he'd be too willing to keep > anyone's secret after that. > Alla: Precisely. Don't you think that the reason Snape would keep quiet could be that he himself had something to hide, that is why Dumbledore's words coulld have worked? JMO of course, Alla. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 03:20:49 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:20:49 -0000 Subject: Snape/Regulus, post 135111 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135743 response to: > colebiancardi > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 hg: I've read it and have been thinking about it for awhile. I think you must really be onto something considering the timelines. Regulus's death (or lack thereof!) does coincide with Snape turning double agent. Additionally, you point out (along with other posters): 1) Snape owes a life debt to James. (via poster Tonks) 2) The reason Dumbledore trusts Snape is none of Harry's business. (via poster Roberta) 3) It's possible that Regulus faked his own death, and the Quibbler article about Stubby Boardman could have been an attempt to reveal himself to Sirius. (via poster Caro) We know Snape is accomplished at Occlumency, so he'd be able to prevent Voldemort from discovering certain compartmentalized memories or feelings. This makes it possible. What's difficult about making this theory work, however, is that it would necessitate a) Snape knowing about the Horcruxes (if Regulus, poisoned, came to him), which it really seems he doesn't, or b) Snape valuing Regulus' life over his own (if his stomach was turned by the idea of killing Regulus, whether or not it was done, whether he or another DE did it), which is unlikely, whether he is ESE or not, knowing Snape. And I don't have any canon to prove it or disprove it. If I seem to be shooting down your theory, forgive me. I liked it so much I was compelled to respond, even though you approach a theory in a reverse process from mine: your theory starts with motive and looks for the signs, and I nitpick at signs and try to discern what they might mean. I would start with some hard evidence, such as the fact that Sirius couldn't have been alone in the cave, otherwise the real Horcrux would still be there. Who could he have been with? And as tantalizing as it is to think that Regulus is "underground," I think the Dumbledore/Kreacher scene makes it clear that he's dead. Okay, here's a what-if: what if it was Snape who was with him, they left together, Snape turned him in, thereby securing a position close to Voldemort, and simultaneously Snape told Dumbledore about the Horcrux, thereby securing a position close to Dumbledore? If that were the case, what clues would lead us to that conclusion? I could imagine Snape suspecting or even knowing about one Horcrux. None of this is anything I can back up with textual evidence, so it makes me uncomfortable. Your turn! hg. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 03:53:57 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:53:57 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > > wrote: > > > Julie wrote: > > > "According to JKR's interview with Mugglenet/TLC, she is writing > > > according to a genre." > > > > > > Del replies: > > > Agreed, but according to the same interview she also incorporates > > what > > > she feels needs to be there: > > > > > > > > > > Emerson and Melissa were apparently satisfied with the romance, > but > > > I'm not. I can't be satisfied with a romance that happens > > *entirely* > > > off-screen. Especially not when on the other hand we see Ron and > > > Lavender snogging every 5 pages during half the book (or so). > > > > > Julie now: > > I see her use of romance to develop the adolescent character, and I > > think this is why much of it is implied. Except, of course, for > > the "snogging" (being American, I loved that word! Conjured a very > > different image than simply "kissing" or "Making out." It was > > almost like they were trying to suck each other's face off.) THe > > snogging created tension in the characters that could not have been > > created as well in implication. However, I don't think we are > going > > to get much of the characters romatic fantasies, internal dialogue, > > etc., because this is a fantasy/action book. I do understand that > > many people want much more of the romance, which is why this fanfic > > is so popular. I just don't think they are going to be satisfied > > with what they get in this septology. > > > > Hickengruendler: > > But I don't think this is true. Even if we exclude the internal > dialogue, and I might add that we got internal dialogue about several > things in course of the series, including Quidditch, that does not > explain why we didn't got any *external* dialogue between Harry and > Ginny. Why don't we see them talking with each other? Or Harry > confiding in her? Or them simply eating chocolate frogs together, > enjoying their time? (see, it doesn't even have to be deep > conversation. I just want to see them interacting with each other). > Taking all the books together (before the Spiderman scene in the > end), there is exactly one scene, where Harry and Ginny have a > conversation without anyone else present, namely the one in the > library in book 5. Heck, Harry had more pagetime alone with *Tonks* > than with Ginny, at least they had two scenes together without anyone > else present. And in one of them Tonks did not much more than telling > Harry about her metamorphmagus powers and that she thinks that the > Dursley house is a bit too clean. And yet this is a very lively and > interesting scene. > > There is nothing in the books that suggest that Ginny is anything > more than the object of Harry's teen lust. And the thing is, I > wouldn't have minded this, since I find it pretty realistic and since > it still has the opportunity to develop into more. But the problem > is, that JKR obviously wants us to believe, that there is already > more, as the last scene clearly suggests. And this is where she IMO > failed. In the last scene Harry and Ginny talk, as if they were > deeply in love, caring for each other on a level that goes way > beneath the surface and that they are obviously soulmates. But I do > not find this obvious at all, because there is no emotional > investment leading to this. There is no bond between Harry and Ginny. > I see a stronger bond (of course in a non-shippy way) between Harry > and Neville or Harry and Luna or Harry and Remus, because of the > times we see them interact. What I see is a teenage boy who lusted > after a pretty girl, and a teenage girl, who is happy because her > childhood-crush finally acknowledged her. Really, the relationship > between them seems as "deep" to me as the one between Fleur Delacour > and Roger Davies after the Yule Ball. > > You are saying that romance doesn't have as much room in such a > story, but this can't explain why the romance between Ron and > Lavender got more screentime than the one Harry had with his > supposed "ideal" girl. And if JKR really wants to include such a > noble hero scene like the one in the end, than she should make the > reader care about this ship, so that the scene feels earned. And I > can't say that I care about the H/G ship, or about Ginny as a > character, very much. > > Hickengruendler I do not think she has failed. I just don't think the romantic pairings are as important to JKR as the main storyline. She simply can't include everything that all of her fans want to read. IMO she has made it quite clear these are not romance novels, so these details will not be there. They have not been there in the previous six books and I doubt very seriously they will not be in book 7. I can understand why you are disappointed if this is what you are looking for. Unfortunately, I predict your disappointment will continue. She has set up much bigger fish to fry in book seven that who gets together and how. If she departs from her genre of books one through six and writes a romance novel for book seven, I will join the ranks of the disappointed. I am a psychologist so of course I love hearing how people relate in all types of relationships. I like the internal dialogue, emotions, cognitions, etc. However, I like things being implied and left to my interpretation. Just a difference of opinion. From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 03:59:54 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:59:54 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mt3t3l1" wrote: > I was reading Sorcerer's Stone again and this jumped out at me. > Hagrid is talking to Harry just before they leave the Hut-on-the- Rock. > > "Gringotts is the safest place in the world for anything yeh want ter > keep safe -- 'cept maybe Hogwarts." > > > We know that Voldy!Quirrell broke into Gringotts that same day in an > unsuccessful attempt to steal the Sorcerer's Stone. I'm wondering, > did Voldy ever break into Gringotts to leave something behind? Or in > his more reputable days, did Tom Riddle ever store something in one of > the vaults? This might be an excellent place to hide a Horcrux. > > Merrylinks I think you are onto something there. I wonder if the diary was the horcrux left in Hogwarts since he "preserved his 16 year old self." Gringotts is intrguing. After all, the goblins don't strike me as the kind that would jump up and say, "OOOh, he has a vault here and it's number 666! Here let me show you!" He could not walk in the front door, but it has been broken into before. This certainly is an interesting possibility, IMO. Julie From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 04:09:58 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:09:58 -0000 Subject: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135747 > When Albus tells Snape "you know what I must now ask you to do" at > the end of GOF, that conversation doesn't pick up again, in our > information, until Hagrid's overheard convesation "what if I don't > want to do it anymore?" This, I submit, is what Snape and Dumbledore > are talking about. Not the Unbreakable Vow, because the language > doesnt't fit that scenario AT ALL. > > dan Valky: I agree with that actually, Dan. I believe the part in the argument that is most likely to be a reference to the Unbreakable Vow is where Snape accuses DD of taking too much for granted. At the end of HBP, I think it becomes evident that Snape did not share the details of his Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore. Dumbledore says to Malfoy "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but-" Which can quite clearly be read as an indication that DD didn't know about the UV, except for the "but" which we never actually get to hear thanks to Malfoy's interruption, which may have indicated that DD was aware that Snape had comprimised his position in some way related to this promise. Harry did, after all, tell DD that he heard Snape say he had made an Unbreakable Vow, *before* the argument in the forest. Given this, it is likely that when Dumbledore and Snape argued in the forest Dumbledore was hoping for Snape to confess his UV, DD never directly asks these things, as we know. It was probably something like, "Is there something you wish to tell me Severus..." Whereupon Snape says yeah I don't want to do this anymore kick me out let me go, whatever just get me away from you or he says, there's nothing Dumbledore I just don't like doing this job anymore. You choose which you like. But in any case Snape accuses Dumbledore of taking something for granted and says he wants out, so both lead to the same thing, Dumbledores massive brainpower was accumulating plenty of evidence about Snape and he *made* Snape go through with it even though he *did* know there was something else to it, even though Snape, the Snape he trusted and believed was loyal, didn't want to stick around for it. Dumbledore continues to say I trust Severus completely, even after SS says he wants out when DD prods him to confess his UV. You can add this together anyway you want, but its the way DD added it that matters. Why assume he came up a total of Snape's fears are unfounded or that Snape would never have made the Unbreakable Vow? That doesn't seem incredibly Dumbledorish to me. Also Hagrid says that Dumbledore was angry with Snape, but he doesn't tell us Dumbledore's actual angry words. Could they be, "You will do as you have promised, Severus." And while Snape thought Dumbledore was talking about the promise he had made to DD, Dumbledore knew that he, himself, was actually talking about the Unbreakable Vow. From lunalovegood at shaw.ca Sun Jul 31 04:13:56 2005 From: lunalovegood at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:13:56 -0000 Subject: Snape kills V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135748 Laila wrote: > Dumbledore was on his last leg. Time was of the Essence and with all of the delaying he was going to die anyway. He needed Immediate attention. I believe that one look told Severus what he needed to know. SSSusan wrote: > I believe, by the time Snape arrived, DD knew he was a goner. It's a time of war and the plan must go forward. If the leader is on his way out, the soldier must abide by the final request. dan: It's just, well, there's no evidence of any kind of pre-burial agreement on their, Mr. Snape and Albus parts. The conversation Hagrid overheard - the "I don't want to do it anymore" and the "take too much for granted" can't really be distorted into the vow subject. Hell, it would make more sense if they were talking about Snape teaching DADA. At any rate, yunno, Albus isn't the kind to make Unbreakable vows or such - he relies on good faith, like with Harry on their quest, a verbal promise is good for him, if it needs maintenance once in a while, so what? He never forced Harry to make a vow to say "Professor Snape" - he relied on coercion, hoping that the spirit of his generousity would be picked up on by others. As we see after Harry talks about the tower scene, the other teachers have no deep respect for Snape, only faith that Dumbledore knows best. Laila wrote: > As much as I dislike Snape ( and boy do I dislike him!), I was truly devastated by his betrayal. He was like an old cantankerous family member abrasive, hirrible, nasty, but you know they will never harm you. I desperately want to believe that he will reddem himself at some point. The only thing that gives me reservations about this theory was Dumbledore's speech about how when he does make a mistake it tends to be monumental... dan: Ah, but that is key too, the monumental aspect of his betrayal. It means that for our protagonist, his coming to terms with Snape (and little Draco Malfoy) will be a thing of sheer gift - nothing Snape can do will make up for his betrayal, and if Potter wants to proceed, he will have to have the generosity that Albus foresaw him needing. As for Snape, it's just sad. dan From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 04:17:59 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:17:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CIAO DOLCE VITA (Longish) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135749 In a message dated 7/30/2005 8:34:58 PM Mountain Standard Time, jlnbtr at yahoo.com writes: I just don't know how the Order will be informed, did Dumbledore leave a letter explaining everything? or will his portrait tell Professor McGonadall his reasons? Or my favorite theory: He will return, and he will do so as a phoenix. Since forever there has been a relation between DD and the Phoenix: His Patronus is a phoenix, he?s one of the few people who?s ever had one as a pet, they understand each other, his organization is called ?The Order of the Phoenix?? There?s this paragraph I found very interesting: ?Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore?s body and the table upon which he lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished? (Ch 30 P 645). Not to mention that Fawkes takes Voldemort's AK for Dumbledore in the ministry (shades of Lily and Harry...hmmm.). If Snape was on Dumbledore's orders, I'm sure SpiritPhoenix!Dumbledore would protect him both from Harry and Voldemort's wrath (you think killing Dumbledore will get Snape VIP treatment with LV? *cough*Stalin*cough*) and if not... Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 04:46:21 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:46:21 -0000 Subject: "Magic always leaves traces..." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135750 "Magic always leaves traces, sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style." (Chap. 26 p. 563, US version) Did anyone else find Dumbledore's magical deconstructions one of the most interesting parts of the cave scene? I'll miss his insights into the mysteries of magic. No one else seems to understand magical ability in quite the same way. He does seem to be making a point of passing on his knowledge to Harry, at least. It also struck me that he refers to the cave as Riddle's style, not Voldemort's. Either Dumbledore is once again refusing to acknowledge who Riddle has become, or he literally means Riddle placed the locket in the cave as far back as the murder of Hepzibah Smith. There are moments in the cave when he says 'Voldemort', but in that particular instance he refers to Riddle. The big question is, did Harry learn enough in the cave to recognize and defeat Voldemort's obstacles surrounding the remaining Horcruxes? Sometimes clever, sometime crude, mixed with a fear of 'darkness and death'...that seems to be Riddle's preoccupation at the time he created the protections in the cave. Although I think Dumbledore is saying that like any creative art, a magical style is recognizable across time and skill levels. So even Voldemort's advanced magic would presumably have undercurrents of Riddle's preoccupation with darkness, death, dismemberment, etc. Jen, sorry if this posted twice but I got a strange error message on the first one. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 05:10:10 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:10:10 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135751 Merrylinks: > We know that Voldy!Quirrell broke into Gringotts that same day > in an unsuccessful attempt to steal the Sorcerer's Stone. I'm > wondering, did Voldy ever break into Gringotts to leave something > behind? Or in his more reputable days, did Tom Riddle ever store > something in one of the vaults? This might be an excellent place > to hide a Horcrux. Julie: > I think you are onto something there. I wonder if the diary was the > horcrux left in Hogwarts since he "preserved his 16 year old self." > Gringotts is intrguing. After all, the goblins don't strike me as > the kind that would jump up and say, "OOOh, he has a vault here and > it's number 666! Here let me show you!" He could not walk in the > front door, but it has been broken into before. This certainly is > an interesting possibility, IMO. Jen: So far Riddle's hiding places have been meaningful to his history: the Gaunt House, the cave where he terrorized the children, possibly the cup at Hogwarts. Dumbledore said Tom "showed contempt for anything that tied him to other people, anything that made him ordinary." (chap, 13, p. 277) So if ordinary people used Gringotts to protect objects, he would probably reject the idea. But if he did hide one at Gringotts, I agree it would be the diary. That's the only Horcrux he allowed somone else to safeguard as far as we know, and since he intended it to be a weapon as well as a Horcrux.... He had to hide it *somewhere* during the years before he gave it to Lucius, since that happened shortly before his fall. But we may never find out now that it's destroyed. Jen From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 05:54:01 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:54:01 EDT Subject: Explanations but no facts (was Re: Mr. Snape, not Saint Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135752 Dan wrote: As I have asked before and ask again to the list - what would explain Snape's revulsion and hatred, Albus changed tone (such that it startled Potter) on the Astronomy Tower? In spite of vague comparisons to mercy killing, there has been no explanation that makes sense, other than, perhaps, that Snape has broken under the general distrust of the faculty, students, of the whole wizard world, and holds the old man in contempt. Albus has forced, or tried to force, respect for Snape, because Albus is trying to make Snape, the abused kid Snape, who claimed he wanted to get better, who expressed remorse, a better person? It has failed dismally, because of Snape's fear, his self-hatred. Julie says: You ask again what would explain Snape's revulsion and hatred, and then dismiss the theories that Snape could feel hatred and revulsion for what he must do (or so I assume, as that theory has been posted here repeatedly). It's fine if you don't believe in this theory, but it is viable given the ambiguous information imparted in HBP, just as the idea that Snape was killing an already dying Dumbledore (i.e., "mercy killing") is viable. So you have been given alternate explanations that could fit with the few facts we actually know. It's fine that you don't believe them, but they have been given. Oh, and Dumbledore's changed tone came about as Snape walked onto the scene, *before* Snape and Dumbledore even had eye contact. Assuming ESE!Snape, how did Dumbledore know Snape was going to kill him before Snape even got there? He would have just been assuming Snape was arriving to help fight the DEs. And if he could Legilimens that info from Snape, why didn't he Legilimens earlier the fact that Snape had turned ESE, or that Snape was prepared to kill him out of self-preservation? It's contradictory, and two reasonable explanations are that Dumbledore was begging for something he'd already been planning to beg for (all along, or as a last resort--which could be that Snape must kill Dumbledore to save himself), or that Snape Occlumensed Dumbledore up to that very last minute. (See, I even present both sides!) And once again JKR is very careful to keep Snape and his true loyalty a complete enigma. Damn, that woman is good! If Snape liked Lily, or Lily was nice to him, and he called her "Mudblood", and this is his worst memory, and the "mudblood" part the worst part, as I've said before, then this indicates a very hurt, very hurtful human being, who has had a tendancy to lash out at people who he cares about. Sounds like abuse symptoms. It comes out a bit the way he relates to students, don't you think - though, apparently, this can be moot. When Albus tells Snape "you know what I must now ask you to do" at the end of GOF, that conversation doesn't pick up again, in our information, until Hagrid's overheard convesation "what if I don't want to do it anymore?" This, I submit, is what Snape and Dumbledore are talking about. Not the Unbreakable Vow, because the language doesnt't fit that scenario AT ALL. dan Julie says: Actually it does sound like they could be talking about the Unbreakable Vow, as much as they could be talking about Dumbledore's comments in GoF. Of course they could also be talking about whether Snape should wear panty hose under his robes. (Dumbledore "You made a promise!"="It will help hide your unsightly varicose veins.") Okay, maybe not. But we got zero real information from that conversation, other than that Dumbledore wants Snape to do something and Snape is having second thoughts about it. Did I say before that JKR is GOOD? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 06:44:35 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:44:35 EDT Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135753 I've just been rereading part of HBP (something I think I'll be doing a LOT until Book 7 comes out. There's been some discussion on Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward, and I noticed something very interesting when rereading the "duel" between Harry and Snape. Harry calls Snape a coward TWICE, but Snape only flips out the second time. The first time is when Harry screams at Snape to "Fight back, you cowardly--", at which point Snape cuts him off, saying-- "Coward, did you call me, Potter?" shouted Snape. "Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?" In this first exchange, Snape doesn't seem that upset, and there's no expression of rage or pain. He takes no action against Harry but simply insults James, which of course further angers Harry. The next time Harry calls Snape a coward is after Harry has tried to use the Half-Blood Prince's curses against Snape, and Harry is on the ground defenseless while Snape goes into his "I, the Half-Blood Prince..." spiel (while taking no action again except to hex Harry's wand away). Then the following ensues-- "Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him [James], you coward--" "DON'T--" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the house behind them-- "CALL ME COWARD!" Then Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the face, and is slammed back against the ground. (And is the first, and only, time Snape physically takes action against Harry) I respectfully submit that Snape didn't react to the word "coward" when Harry said it the second time. He doesn't really care if Harry or anyone else thinks he's cowardly in general. He reacted specifically to being called a coward for *killing* Dumbledore. And this seems a bit of evidence supporting the SecretlyGood!Snape theory, for why else would Snape be so pained and enraged by being called a coward for that action, if in fact it wasn't because it was the one thing he did that took the most courage he'd ever mustered? If he was ESE!Snape, this specific accusation of cowardice wouldn't be any different than any other accusation of cowardice, since he didn't really care about Dumbledore anyway. Thoughts? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Jul 31 09:39:25 2005 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:39:25 -0000 Subject: Go and Wake Severus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135754 "potioncat" wrote: > DD says, "Go > and wake Severus," "Tell him what has happened and bring him to me " > > Interesting that DD knew where Snape was. He told Harry to go wake > Snape and bring him. How did DD know Snape was asleep? snip Hard to believe Snape would go to bed > if DD wasn't around, though. Flitwick goes to get Snape not sure if > McGonagall knew Snape was asleep, or just that he wasn't on Patrol > Duty. What happens when Flitwick wakes him? Snape attacks. He didn't > go to bed knowing something might happen that would require his being > woken suddenly. In fact, he didn't go to bed at all. Snape is already > dressed. He was asleep, but he wasn't in bed. I think DD put a charm > on him. I don't think he wanted Snape to know he was leaving the > castle that night. Too bad. Things might have been different if Snape > had taken on the DEs before DD returned. > A charm? Possible. But DD never says Snape actually was asleep. He just tells Harry to wake him up. There might be other things to be waken up from than just sleep. So another possibility might be that he is in some kind of magical "trance" or "coma" - don't know a better word in English. He might "mentally" be somewhere else. In OOTP it's suggested that Voldemort possessed Nagini, that must mean that it's possible to transfer yourself (non-fysically) somewhere else or into somebody else? Marika Marika From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 31 10:25:11 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:25:11 -0400 Subject: Nonverbal spells Message-ID: <006901c595ba$22a547c0$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135755 >>zgirnius said: To be considered a basically qualified wizard in the WW, it suffices to pick up a few OWLS CathyD now: Yes, I am aware of that. Fred and George are well within their right to practice wizardry outside of school although they have not passed NEWTs. So are Ron and Hermione now that they are both 17. >> The requirement to cast nonverbal spells in DADA, Charms, and Transfiguration is only introduced at the NEWT level. Yes, some people will fail. And they will go on to careers in which they do not need high scores on the NEWTs in these subjects. I think you missed my point, which was, I think, that the non-verbal spell used on Hermione in the Department of Mysteries didn't do as much damage as it would have done if spoken. My curiousity was, are some spells more dangerous spoken than non-verbal and where/what is the difference? In the DoM battle, there are no non-verbal spells except the one used on Hermione after whosit was 'Silencio'd' by Harry. It is quite obvious to me that not all of these DE's have failed non-verbal spells and so flunked out of their NEWT classes. Introducing non-verbals here, of course, would have been like introducing Thestrals at the end of Goblet of Fire: creating a mystery that wouldn't be solved for two years. I swear I will never make an 'offhanded' comment again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 31 10:28:04 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:28:04 -0400 Subject: A few more thoughts on Patronus change Message-ID: <006d01c595ba$897af6c0$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135756 -Isis said: >>that the romance between Tonks and Lupin was a red herring (she used those words). She didn't explain, and she wasn't asked to. I could guess that could be as simple as disguising what everyone assumed to be her being upset with Sirius' death, but perhaps there is something more that we have yet to learn... we do know that Patronuses are important, we just don't know how important... CathyD now: JKR did not say (it was part 2 of the interview) that the romance between Tonks and Lupin was a red herring. What she said was: " I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it's so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance?" Throughout most of the book we were let believe Tonks was in love with Sirius, upset about Sirius' death, the change in her patronus, and that perhaps Mrs. Weasley wanted Tonks at the Burrow to come between Bill and Fleur. JKR wanted us to get the idea that something was wrong with Tonks, that she'd been Imperiused or that who we were seeing as Tonks was really someone Polyjuiced to look like Tonks. That was the red herring in this case, she truly is in love with Lupin. However, and perhaps JKR doesn't know she did it, back in Order of the Phoenix, whenever we see Tonks being clumsy, tripping over the troll leg, knocking over chairs, breaking the plate at the Dursleys, she's always within about 20 feet of Remus. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 31 10:29:49 2005 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:29:49 -0400 Subject: Am I the only one... Message-ID: <007101c595ba$c7f56110$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 135757 zgirnius replies: >>And we don't know when the HBP wrote those notes. I mean, was he so brilliant that he walked into 6th year NEWT potions every day, did whatever potion assigned that day in a new, creative, and better way, and then in the spare time left in the class, wrote down notations of his improvements? I doubt it!! CathyD now: Well, we know Levicorpus was invented and well known by Snape's 5th year. We see James, at OWL time, using it on Snape. Lupin says, "There were a few months in my *fifth* year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle." Obviously, while our 6th years are using Advanced Potion Making for their NEWT classes, Slughorn was using it throughout the time he taught the Marauders and Snape. Or, Snape is taking credit for a spell his mother created. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 12:04:48 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:04:48 -0000 Subject: Am I the only one... In-Reply-To: <007101c595ba$c7f56110$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135758 > zgirnius replies: > >>And we don't > know when the HBP wrote those notes. I mean, was he so brilliant that > he walked into 6th year NEWT potions every day, did whatever potion > assigned that day in a new, creative, and better way, and then in the > spare time left in the class, wrote down notations of his improvements? > I doubt it!! > > CathyD now: > Well, we know Levicorpus was invented and well known by Snape's 5th year. We see James, at OWL time, using it on Snape. Lupin says, "There were a few months in my *fifth* year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle." Obviously, while our 6th years are using Advanced Potion Making for their NEWT classes, Slughorn was using it throughout the time he taught the Marauders and Snape. Or, Snape is taking credit for a spell his mother created. > Valky: Yeah, it's either what Duffy said, and Snape's mother created them, though I am not entirely sure that would be totally accurate, or it's canon long the lines of "Snape knew more dark arts curses than Seventh Years before he came to Hogwarts" Paraphrase Lupin in OOTP. If the Potions book was Snape's mother's and Snape's childhood was not one filled with Wizard Fair's trips to Zonko's and practising Quidditch in his backyard with friends and siblings, then what he might have been doing was discovering his natural love of the Arts through his mothers old textbooks. In which case he invented, or perfected quite a number of spells before he turned eleven. One could even go as far as to say that his poor trodden down embattled mother didn't have a whole lot to give her little son, so what she did give meant something very special to him. Perhaps even the name "The Half Blood Prince". (I named my son a prince when he was very young). A Regal name bearing the marks of deep affection would be a very special gift from a Mother, and I don't doubt for a minte that JKR could have in store for us *another* Mother and Son relationship to liken to Lily-Harry, Merope-Tom. This all might be farfetched though, since Snape did manage to lose the book at some stage or he left it in the dungeon which might indicate that it didn't mean much to him at all. On another note, it is still a wonder how the Levicorpus spell made its way into the common halls at Hogwarts, if Snape did actually invent it. Clearly he didn't do so in his sixth year, as James used it in Fifth Year, so lets suppose he managed this particular one before first year began. Perhaps James or Sirius stole the book from him in the early years of school and read through it, learning the Levicorpus spell and then managed to make it popular, themselves. Then again it's even as likely that Snape taught it to some older students and word managed to get around through them. But it sems more poignant, more deliberate that James would use the Levicorpus against Snape because he knew it was *Snape's* spell so I might go with the chance that Sirius and James read the book too, even *if* Snape taught it to his older counterparts such as Lucius Malfoy. This brings up the chance that James and Sirius, like Harry, discovered the dark and gruesome Sectumsempra spell which might explain why they believed Snape to be a very vicious dark wizard and hated him. Onto another matter, I recall a thread earlier that discussed Harry having no ability to match Snape. I'd like to take this opportunity to differ greatly on that. During the DADA lesson that was focussed upon the use of non-verbal defense, Snape made to attack Harry in a very fast move and without warning. Harry beat him to the mark, verbal or non-verbal Snape was no match for Harry's gut reflex. Remembering that Hermione quoted the book on nonverbal magic saying that the point was to give the caster a "split-second" advantage notice how JKR points out Harry's ability to make the split second advantage moot, he's just that fast in defense. OTOH in Flight of the Prince, Harry's attacking of Snape seems to put him right off his game, which seems to say a lot about what Harry's talents will limit for him, but it definitely doesn't take away the brilliance he showed in the DADA clasroom or his outshooting of Draco in the bathroom, albeit with disastrous consequences. From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 12:12:26 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:12:26 -0000 Subject: Nonverbal spells In-Reply-To: <006901c595ba$22a547c0$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > >>zgirnius said: My curiousity was, are some spells more dangerous spoken than non- verbal and where/what is the difference? In the DoM battle, there are no non-verbal spells except the one used on Hermione after whosit was 'Silencio'd' by Harry. Since revealing the prophecy in OoTP-which appears to be that Harry will indeed be on a hero's quest (a journey to seek out and destroy the four horcruxes and ultimately destroy Voldemort)but as in all of these type of literary quests, the final battle with Voldemort must be fought by him alone. Book seven appears to be following the path of so many works of literature, leading to the conclusion that Harry will succeed all alone, without any help from fate, family or friends. Or will he? Is this where love comes in? His ability to love others, which inspires others to love him inspiring fierce loyalty will give him the assistance and the support he needs--perhaps in some capacity all who have known and loved Harry will be there with him at the end. Harry will tap into that power, the power that Voldemort knows not because he believes it doesn't really exist. I can't fathom an ending where Harry meets up with Voldemort and summons all his hatred and is able to wack him with AK. Does that feel satisfying to anyone else? I think JKR is heavily foreshadowing non- verbal spells, learning to control thoughts and read thoughts for the ultimate show down. A meeting of the minds, where Harry experiences evil and Voldemort experiences love. I think Voldemort can be destroyed if he can be made to feel guilt and regret by Harry. I think he will destroy himself. From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 04:17:54 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:17:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP Why Hermione is not right for Harry (Re: Ginny VS Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135761 Alla wrote : Right, back to Hermione. I absolutely agree with you that she is way too serious and Harry, if he survives the series, will need someone who would back down and give him the space to heal if needed, and who could laugh with him if needed. Marianne S: I first must say that I agree with Alla and Hickengruendler about Hermione not being a good match for Harry. Consequently, I find her seriousness to be a perfect balance for Ron. However, I am still waiting for Ron to do some sort of Great Deed on his own, to show that Gryffindor bravery. I feel like we have mostly had Ron acting a bit the idiot since SS/PS ? let's see more of that outstanding chess logic. Alla again: The annoying thing to me is that even though JKR promised to treat romance as secondary thing, I know that she CAN do it well even as secondary thing, because the last scene between Bill ( who was not even talking) and Fleur and Molly had SO much more spark, IMO, than any interaction between Harry and Ginny. Sigh.. Now Marianne S. : As far as Romance being a "Secondary" thing, I have a feeling that this perhaps was JKR's motivation for writing the Harry/Ginny scenes the way she did, either leaving people dissatisfied or, in the case of my friends and myself, leaving much to the imagination. Those of us that can accept Harry's developed feelings for Ginny (which I have seen since OotP though I now recognize other signs from GoF), also accept that JKR perhaps deliberately left a lot to the imagination. I don't necessarily want to read everything that happened on the long walks in the grounds and particularly nice lunch hours down by the lake because I want this to be part of the story that my younger relatives and students and I can apply our own frame of reference to; I don't want superfluous details that, though they might delight some readers, could confuse or distract potentially many more fans. I have to disagree about the spark, however. I see it in the way that Ginny was able to be the heart and soul of the Quidditch team, the way she was able to be the one whose warm hand was able to lead Harry away from Dumbledore's body, the way Ginny was able to express in a look that she understood and supported what Harry needed to do, and that she liked him all the more for it. I can frankly understand more of their spark than all the gooeyness between Fleur and Bill, though I do believe those two love each other. I am looking forward to how Harry and Ginny develop in book 7. There's bound to be more (spark) between them at Bill and Fleur's wedding, and I can only hope that Ginny's love waiting for Harry will be part of the strength he can use to successfully complete his tasks. Lastly, Alla : Did I mention that I used not to care much for SHIPS between kids? :-) Finally Marianne S: I wholeheartedly concur! In fact, I don't think I'd even post so much pro-Ginny/Harry if I wasn't so taken aback by all the people against them. Marianne S. From abigail1848 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 04:54:39 2005 From: abigail1848 at hotmail.com (Abigail Eire) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:54:39 -0500 Subject: Snape as coward and other responses In-Reply-To: <1a4.3b96e597.3011e1c8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135762 >Marisa writes: >But where is it ever indicated that DD would have become aware >of Snape's betrayal in those moments before his death. DD >pleads, "Severus.." from the moment that Snape walks through >the door. Just doesn't seem likely that Snape's appearance on >the rooftop was proof to DD that Snape's loyalties lay with the >DE's. > >Julie responded: >This is a very good point. Harry hears pleading in DD's voice >when DD first whispers "Severus." At this point Snape has just >walked up, and hasn't even looked at DD. At which point DD >has no reason to suddenly think that Snape has switched sides >and no reason to start pleading for his life/pleading for Snape >not to throw away his own life. Hence DD can only be >pleading for Snape to do something DD's *already* wants/ >expects Snape to do before Snape ever starts to take any >action whatsoever. > >I'm having a hard time reading it any other way. It could >be a timing error on JKR's part, but she is pretty careful >with her writing (other than things involving maths) as we >saw with how carefully she worded the prophecy. I apologize that I am responding to something more than a week old, but I am having hard time keeping up with all of you! LOL I wanted to add my thoughts when I first read this part in the book. Dumbledore's plea, to me, seemed to be an echo of when Lupin wanted to see Snape for the potion he provided (sorry, no reference page at the moment). At the beginning of chapter 27, when Harry tells Dumbledore they need to get him to Madam Pomfrey, Dumbledore replies, "No, it is Professor Snape whom I need". Later, after seeing the Death Mark, Dumbledore tells Harry, "Go, and wake Severus. Tell him what has happened, and bring him to me." Of course, this still doesn't say specifically that Dumbledore is requesting a *potion* from Snape, but as I said, this is what I read between the lines (yes, I admit that I read the book first for entertainment value, before analyzing it further!) So, as purposely leading as JKR can be, I just assumed that the plea from Dumbledore and the calling of his name was more in anticipation of relief than a plea for his life, and didn't even entertain that it was a plea for Snape to reconsider anything. If DD and SS *did* conspire, then that would still hold true! ~abi From samwisep at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 07:04:01 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:04:01 -0000 Subject: Why Snape called himself HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135763 lindseyharrisst wrote: (I'd like to use my first post since reading the book to make two separate points. The first concerns the character develoment of Lupin and the second is about "why the half blood prince?") Snapo'phile: I have thought long and hard of why he might call himself "half-blood prince". It sounds to me like what someone might say if they were affectionately teasing someone.(someone teasing snape)Sort of like an affectionate nickname. This is the only reason I can think of that someone would want to call themselves something seen as slightly deragatory. Snapo'phile From lazyvixen at btinternet.com Sun Jul 31 08:43:02 2005 From: lazyvixen at btinternet.com (lazyvix3n) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:43:02 -0000 Subject: Lestrange and Avery in the Slug Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135764 In the chapters "A Sluggish memory" and "Horcruxes", the young Tom Riddle is with Slughorn for what looks like a Slug Club meeting. With him are a boy called Lestrange and a boy called Avery. You don't analyze this much when you read it but after some thought I realised that if this was the Avery ftom the modern day and/or Rabostan or Rodulphus Lestrnage, that would mean that they were nearly 70 years old in OOtP. I wouldn't think that Bellatrix was much older than 40, Lucius would be in the same age range as Lily and Change, maybe a few years older, Narcisa would be similarly aged and Bellatrix must be within a few years of Cissy. Would Bellatrix marry someone 30 years her senior? So I was wondering if this Lestrange and Avery were the fathers of the DEs in OOtP. I can't see how this has any relevance to anything :o) Mandy From dlatchman at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 04:48:29 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:48:29 -0400 Subject: Missing Prefects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135765 Neil wrote: > > Could someone please explain how the prefect system works. In book > five Ron and Hermione get made prefects and it seems they are the > only two in Gryffindor. They patrol the train, lead the first years > to the dorm and it is only Hermione who takes on Fred and George. I > thought at the time that being a prefect was only for one year. David L.: I can't say how the prefect system works in Hogwarts but I can comment on how it worked in my school. Prefects were chosen every year out of the pool of Forms Fives and Forms Sixes (Upper and Lower). In our case students in Forms Five and Six did some of th nomination and the elections of thier peers while the majority was done by teachers. Usually prefects that are chosen remain prefects until they leave school (at least, for the Form Sixes). Form Fives that graduate and return to Form Six loose their prefect badge but in some cases they are made prefects again when they return in Form Six. So that would mean that Ron and Hermoine would remain prefects until they graduate from Hogwarts. It seems that things may be a little different in JK's world. It could mean that prefects are only chosen from the entering fifth years otherwise if they were chosen from entering Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Years there would be a total of 36 prefects with 12 in each house. While this may seem a lot given the estimaed number of students in the school that number may not be unreasonable. I hope this clears the situation somewhat. Neil: I understand that these missing prefects are not important to the story line, but they are treated more like being nonexistant than missing. David L.: Well, the story pretty much centered on Dumbledore and Harry with much of it on uncovering Tom's or rather Voldemort's past. So as you said above they just were not important to the crux of the storyline. David L. From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 06:22:04 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffindor's In-Reply-To: <1122753393.1785.7317.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050731062204.58282.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135766 Antosha said: "Has anyone mentioned the Sorting Hat? That was Godric's, originally--though the idea of Riddle sitting in on the sortings for the last fifty years is a little icky." Morgan here: It has been mentioned. I believe that the sword is of more importance. We know that Riddle tried twice to stay at Hogwarts after graduation. I believe that his intention was to use the sword (or maybe even the Sorting Hat) as a horcrux. He was young in one instance of trying to become a teacher, and older in another. On the latter occasion Dumbledore comments to Harry that LV had already started to lose the human look he once had. I believe that as he stored pieces on his soul in horcruxes his appearance also became less and less human. I don't think, though, that he ever succeeded in getting to the sword, the Sorting Hat, or Fawkes. I think he was forced to use another object for the horcrux signifying Gryffindor. This was what he was doing the night Harry's parents died. I doubt that object is still in Godcric's Hollow, but you never know. Whatever did happen to Sirius's motorbike? --Morgan From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 31 04:47:50 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:47:50 -0000 Subject: Could Harry have saved Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <002e01c59506$06f99710$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135767 > Sherry now: > > No, I don't think any 16 year old kid would have thought to ask such > questions, when he was going somewhere with the greatest and most powerful > wizard in the world, the person Harry believed knew how to handle anything, > trusted implicitly. It's almost parental. I wouldn't ever have thought of > questioning if my dad had all we needed for something, even if it was > something dangerous. Even now, in my 40's, if my dad was alive, I wouldn't > think of questioning his preparedness. Harry wouldn't have thought he > needed the luck potion, when he was with Dumbledore. He did believe that > those left behind at the school would need it, and he was right. Remember, > at the beginning of the book, when Harry and Dumbledore set off to find > Slughorn? Dumbledore tells Harry that nothing will happen to him, because > Harry is with Dumbledore. The kind of absolute faith Harry has in > Dumbledore would never think of questioning if there was anything else > needed for this trip, because he would be sure Dumbledore was completely > prepared. Deb writes: Sherry, I am not blaming Harry for the outcome of the trip to the cave ... though I disagree with this part of what you said "now, in my 40's, if my dad was alive, I wouldn't think of questioning his preparedness" ... I did certainly, in my 40s and now 50s, at times question my Dad's preparedness as he grew older ... and Dumbledore is 150 years old! And Harry did have the opportunity to take some FF ... and Hermione even pushes him to do so(HBP amer HB page 553) as well as get other items ... he took good care of his friends by giving them the FF and the Maurader's Map before leaving with DD.. so it's not as if he is never unplanful.... I'm merely saying that he has alot to pull together between the end of book 6 and the end of book 7. Let me illustrate by creating a "Pensieve Moment"... because I think, based solely on information available in the books, that Harry knows the antidote to the potion that was in the bowl. On another thread I speculated that the potion was Draught of Living Dead and/or was one element needed to create an Inferi... an animated corpse that was under LV's control. See what you make of these pieces ("memories") from HBP and previous books... 1- HBP Amer HB page 374: Hermione - "Golpatott's-Third-Law-states- that-the-antidote-for-a-blended-poison-will-be-equal-to-more-than- the- sum-or-the-antidotes-for-each-of-the-separate-components" page 375: Slughorn - "...that assuming we have achieved correct identification of the potion's ingredients ... our primary aim is not the relatively simple one of selecting antiddotes to those ingredients in and of themselves, but to find that added component that will, by an almost alchemical process, transform these diparate elements...." 2-SS amer PB page 171: Snape - "For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and will save you from most poisons. As for monkshood and wolfsbane, they are the same plant, which also goes by the name aconite..." Is it not possible... even probable that aconite/monkshood/wolfsbane is the "added component" for the antidote to Draught of Living Death 3-GOF amer HB page 234: Professor Snape was forcing them to research antidotes... page 300 Snape "Antidotes...You should all have prepared your recipes now. I want you to brew them carefully and then we will be selecting someone on whom to test one"... page 396 He found it hard to concentrate on Snape's Potions test and consequently forgot to add the key ingredient -a bezoar - meaning he received bottom marks. Harry has studied antidotes in class twice by the end of HBP.. once with Snape and once with Slughorn... and DLD has been mentioned 3 or 4 times... Sherry writes: > And let's not try to let Snape off the hook by laying the blame on Harry. > Harry's shouldered enough blame that he doesn't deserve, without taking the > blame for this! Snape murdered Dumbledore. It is his fault completely. > The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Snape, right where it belongs. > I realize that those who think Snape is still on the good side disagree with > that. It is of course only my opinion, but Harry doesn't need to take on > any more blame for things that are not his fault. Deb writes: Yes Snape did ultimately kill Dumbledore I'm not arguing that. The most important question though is why did he do this? And why did *he* need to be the one to do it? As Dumbledore said to Harry in POA "the consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed".... Which part of the outcome in HBP are the consequences of DD's actions, which part are Harry's consequences, which part are Snape's consequences...? This is not about blame, it's about responsibility and learning from one's experiences. I still say Harry has a lot to learn if he is to ultimately vanquish Voldemort. Deb From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 12:31:59 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:31:59 -0000 Subject: Who is Snape really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135768 Sandym828 wrote: Snape is a loner, most likely, who never really fit into any group. He is a Slytherin, a house whose members seem to value pure-blood lines (and frequently use the term mudblood to negatively denote half- blood or muggle born wizards), and yet his notation on the potions book naming himself "Half-blood Prince" (with Prince being his mother's maiden name), seems to indicate some pride (?) in that status. It makes me wonder--does he really feel like a part of the Slytherins? Next, he seems to never get along with anyone in both Hogwarts and the Order of the Phoenix that well, and is distrusted except by Dumbledore, who probably saved him from Azkaban by vouching for him after the fall of LV. I also think that other DE distrust him as well, and HBP seems to show this in his conversation with Malfoy's mom. My point here is that he probably doesn't really feel a great attachment to the DE either. vmonte responds: Nice post, I agree. I think that Snape feels contempt for both sides. Sandym828 wrote: So, in the end of HBP (SPOILER ALERT) I see him act quickly, and ruthlessly to kill the weakened Dumbledore. An action which he needed to do to preserve his own life due to the unbreakable vow--and yet...when he certainly was able to do so, he did not kill, torture, or kidnap Harry and take him back to LV. vmonte: Why would he kill Harry? He needs Harry to do his work for him. Snape has been treating Dumbledore for the horcrux related injury the entire school year. (I believe that Snape has known about the horcruxes for quite some time, probably since Regulus's time). If Snape is trying to get rid of both Harry and Voldemort it's a smarter idea to let Harry go about the business of destroying the horcruxes until his final confrontation with Voldemort. Sandym828 wrote: I just keep seeing a pattern of opposite behaviors. One minute you are certain he is evil, and the next you are not so sure. Even in Sorcerer's Stone--it was Snape protecting Harry at the Quidditch match when Quirrell was attempting to knock him off of his broom. I have read some posts which seem to favor the idea of Snape AK ing Dumbledore as Dumbledore's idea. I disagree with this for a couple of reasons. First, although I think it is out of character for Dumbledore to plead for his life, Dumbledore knew that Harry would witness that action helplessly, and he would want to protect Harry from that horrible third loss of a loved one (and Harry truly did love him, I have no doubt). Next, and most importantly, I believe that Snape would act without a moments hesitation to do whatever he felt necessary to achieve his ends. He had a motive for killing Dumbledore--saving his own life. vmonte: Snape does appear to show a pattern of opposite behaviors. To me this says that Snape is following his own agenda. And I agree with you that Snape did not kill DD on DD's orders. JKR may not be writing these books for children (as she claims) but I find it hard to believe that the book company would allow the controversy associated with assisted suicide into a children's' book. The idea that it's ok to tell children that it's ok to kill someone if you are going to help someone else just doesn't fly with me! (Because even if you believe that Dumbledore has done something noble by telling Snape to kill him (hasn't DD tried to keep Snape from teaching DADA for this exact reason), children are going to view the killing of this character in quite a different way.) Snape saved his own skin, plain and simple. Notice how he dragged Draco back to Voldemort? You think this kid will be safer with Voldemort or with the Order? Draco was right. Snape does want all the glory. By the way I cannot stand Draco, but he was always right about the ships too. He teased Harry that Ginny was his new girl friend at the bookstore in CoS, and he teased Ron and Hermione about getting their new dream home (hogsmeade trip) in PoA. LOL! Here are my ideas on Snape's real intentions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135477 Vivian From joj at rochester.rr.com Sun Jul 31 12:40:30 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:40:30 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135769 wrote: > I do not think she has failed. I just don't think the romantic > pairings are as important to JKR as the main storyline. She simply > can't include everything that all of her fans want to read. IMO she > has made it quite clear these are not romance novels, so these > details will not be there. They have not been there in the previous > six books and I doubt very seriously they will not be in book 7. I > can understand why you are disappointed if this is what you are > looking for. Unfortunately, I predict your disappointment will > continue. She has set up much bigger fish to fry in book seven that > who gets together and how. If she departs from her genre of books > one through six and writes a romance novel for book seven, I will > join the ranks of the disappointed. Joj writes: I don't think any of us who were disappointed in H/G romance want Jo to write it as a romance novel. My problem comes in Jo telling us at the end (with the Spiderman break-up) that Harry and Ginny have this deep relationship or love and that's the first we realize it. Would it really be asking for too much to have ONE scene where we see Harry and Ginny connect on an emotional level? Physical attraction is an important aspect in relationships, but if we're to believe in this soul-mate senario, give us one heart to heart! From cynnie36 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 12:56:59 2005 From: cynnie36 at yahoo.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:56:59 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" wrote: > wrote: > > I do not think she has failed. I just don't think the romantic > > pairings are as important to JKR as the main storyline. She simply > > can't include everything that all of her fans want to read. IMO she > > has made it quite clear these are not romance novels, so these > > details will not be there. They have not been there in the previous > > six books and I doubt very seriously they will not be in book 7. I > > can understand why you are disappointed if this is what you are > > looking for. Unfortunately, I predict your disappointment will > > continue. She has set up much bigger fish to fry in book seven that > > who gets together and how. If she departs from her genre of books > > one through six and writes a romance novel for book seven, I will > > join the ranks of the disappointed. > > > Joj writes: > I don't think any of us who were disappointed in H/G romance want Jo > to write it as a romance novel. My problem comes in Jo telling us at > the end (with the Spiderman break-up) that Harry and Ginny have this > deep relationship or love and that's the first we realize it. Would > it really be asking for too much to have ONE scene where we see Harry > and Ginny connect on an emotional level? > > Physical attraction is an important aspect in relationships, but if > we're to believe in this soul-mate senario, give us one heart to heart! Why? To me, their relationship evolved appropriately for most 15/16 year olds. Spending time together, exploring physical and emotional aspects of being together--and kids that age can get pretty desperate for each other in their own heads in an extremely short ammount of time. That being said, I don't think JKR wrote anything near a break-up of soul mates. Harry and Ginny didn't get dramatic, Ginny didn't even cry. Neither of them talked about a "what if" scenario for the future, but both of them have experienced Voldmort first hand, and both know they could be used against each other. A very grown up decision by two kids who had been friends first and going through the beginnings of a romantic relationship that just ran out of time. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 12:59:06 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:59:06 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135771 colebiancardi wrote: I think that this was the opportunity that Snape needed - remember, DD stated in GoF, in the trial scene, that Snape turned spy for them at great personal risk. If Snape was the one who delivered Regulus to DD, against Voldemort's orders that Snape kill Regulus - that is a pretty big personal risk. vmonte responds: It's not much of a personal risk if it was Voldemort's idea for Snape to go to Hogwarts, though. Remember Riddle was trying to get into Hogwarts for some reason and could not. Maybe Riddle sent Snape in instead. colebiancardi: shades of Mad-Eye Moony :) I take it from your postings that you are in the ESE!Snape catagory and you probably have guessed by now I am in the Good!Snape catagory or if worse comes to worse, the TW!Snape - Top Wizard - catagory. I would rather have Snape be a character who is always looking out for himself and his own priorities and once LV is defeated, try to step into the power void left behind, as DD & LV are now gone. But I would rather Snape be a nasty bastard who is still a loyal member of the OotP. vmonte: Actually, I think that Snape is in the Top Wizard category. He is too much like Iago from Otthelo to be seen as anything else. colebiancardi: yes. SS/PS Diagon Alley - "Mr Ollivander fixed Harry with his pale stare. "I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every single wand. It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather - just one another. It is very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its brother - why, its brother gave you that scar" vmonte: What interests me more is whether this character is a DE or an Order member. Is Olivander one of the hooded DEs in the graveyard during GoF? Think about it. Tom was working in a store to collect trinkets to place his horcruxes in. What a better place to get information about future wizards than in a wand shop. And why stress the fact that Oli remembers all the wands ever sold and all the students? This guy is either working for Voldemort or Dumbledore. If he is working for Dumbledore he probably decided to flee when Amelia and the other wizards were killed. It sounds like Voldemort was given key information again by somebody. Vivian Vivian From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 31 12:59:02 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:59:02 -0400 Subject: Lupin's Character Development In-Reply-To: <1122753393.1785.7317.m32@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050731084747.018f9410@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135772 >Snapesangel: >1. Am I the only one to be slightly uncomfortable with JKR's >treatment of Lupin in HBP? >I find him quite weak and self-pitying in this book, but rather than >feel sorry for my second favourtie character, I find it irritating >and a diminution of his character. I also don't know why he was >paired with Tonks. I'll be disappointed if Tonks only narrative >purpose turns out to be to give Lupin a girlfriend, since she's a >very two dimensional character in my eyes and I was hoping we'd "get >to the point" of her in this book. With only one book to go, I hope >it happens soon and that Lupin, who doesn't have a tougher life than >snape does or hagrid did when he was with the giants, shows some of >the old quiet strength for which I liked him. Lissa now: I was sort of disappointed (and really hated the Tonks thing, because he sure didn't seem into it and Tonks's behavior- especially in the hospital- really bugged me), but then I thought about it. When Hagrid goes to the giants, he had Madame Maxime, and he also didn't have to live among them. Snape... I wouldn't say Snape doesn't have a good measure of self-pity- he just expresses it very, very differently. But Lupin is living among these people, day in and day out, alone. The werewolves despise him, because he's been trained to live among wizards. (I'm guessing they're pretty obvious about it, too, given that we're led to believe that they're quite feral. The society he's working for despises him slightly less. (At least they only make him starve.) He's lost Sirius, which I think really, really hurt him- and was probably the person he could talk to the best. He's living in abject poverty- in fact, I was wondering if HE wasn't living in caves eating rats in this one. And worst of all, he has to live around Fenrir Greyback, the man who bit him as a kid. I can't help but think (especially with the immediate parallel everyone and their brother has drawn), that it's got to be like living around an unrepentant rapist or child molester when Remus was one of his victims. And when he goes back to civilization, everyone's bugging him about his love life. I also suspect his depression is the REAL reason he doesn't write to Harry- he doesn't want to worry him. Given how little we see of Lupin, I can at least understand why he's so down. Although I do agree I miss the quiet strength, and I really hope we see it again in Book 7! Lissa From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 13:06:26 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 06:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Grand Plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050731130627.43945.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135773 --- phoenixmum wrote: > Dumbledore's Grand Plan - my theory of Dumbledore's > strategy for defeating Lord Voldemort: This is probably the best simple description of the DGP (for short) that I have ever read. It works well, and not least because it concentrates on what is important in the overall, multi-year chronology. I don't think Harry appreciates yet the "big picture" of the struggle against Voldemort, that this new effort is a continuation of something that happened before and that it will have a transforming impact on all of the WW. The various memories that Dumbledore shared with Harry are an eye-opener for him and a reminder to us. Good job, Phoenix. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 13:08:12 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:08:12 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135774 Julie wrote: " I just don't think the romantic pairings are as important to JKR as the main storyline." Del replies: Then why write so much about Ron and Lavender, or about Ginny and Dean? Julie wrote: "She simply can't include everything that all of her fans want to read." Del replies: I think that very few people cared about seeing Ron snog Lavender, while A LOT of people would have loved to see Harry and Ginny interacting privately. Julie wrote: "IMO she has made it quite clear these are not romance novels, so these details will not be there. They have not been there in the previous six books" Del replies: WHAT??? How can you say that when we were treated to EVERY little bit and detail of the Harry/Cho relationship?? Harry notices Cho, Harry daydreams of Cho, Harry dreams of Cho, Harry looks at Cho, Harry is jealous of Cedric, Harry asks Cho to the Ball, Harry wishes he were with Cho, Harry has butterflies when looking at Cho, Harry fleetingly wishes he were Sorted into Ravenclaw so he could be with Cho, and so on, and on, and on, and ON, and that was BEFORE they even started going out together! Once they do get together, we get a VERY detailed account of their every time together. Their first kiss is discussed for pages, their date in Hogsmeade is described to the smallest detail, their rows happen on-screen, we are privy to all the different emotions Harry goes through, and so on. If JKR didn't want romance to be a significant part of her books, she shouldn't have MADE it so. Julie wrote: "I can understand why you are disappointed if this is what you are looking for." Del replies: It is NOT what I am looking for. What I AM looking for is HARRY. That's what the books "Harry Potter and..." are about: Harry. That's what I want to read about: Harry. And that IS what we used to read about: Harry. We used to be privy to EVERY little detail of his life. There was NOTHING JKR kept from us. She told us all about his emotions and how they affected him. But suddenly, in HBP, she's keeping something MAJOR from us: Harry's love life. Harry's love life is about Harry, it's something very important about Harry, so it SHOULD be included in a book called "Harry Potter and...". I would have understood that Ron's love life be kept entirely off-screen, because Ron is not the hero of HP. But Harry IS the hero of HP, so his love life belongs on-screen. It's as simple as that. Making a book about Harry and keeping his love life off-screen is about as honest as writing a biography of Arthur Weasley and forgetting to mention his wife and his 7 kids, IMO. Julie wrote: "She has set up much bigger fish to fry in book seven that who gets together and how." Del replies: Much bigger fish such as "love is the most powerful magic of all". Yeah, except that she doesn't even show us Harry enjoying his supposedly Big Love Story. Major discrepancy. Julie wrote: "However, I like things being implied and left to my interpretation." Del replies: I *love* things being implied. But where Ginny and Harry are concerned, *nothing* is implied. I have NO canon basis to start imagining a relationship between Harry and Ginny. We have ONE scene between just the two of them in the entire canon, and that was long before they were dating. But the real problem, for me, is that JKR meant MUCH more than implication. She meant us to KNOW that Harry and Ginny love each other very much. The scene where Harry splits up with Ginny makes sense only if the readers care about the relationship, if they know about it, if they know how intense it is, how much of a sacrifice it is for Harry to propose to end the relationship, and how selfless it is for Ginny to let Harry go. Except that by the time I got there, I knew NOTHING of their relationship, I sure had NOT realised that it was supposed to be The Real Deal. So the scene fell horribly flat, and Harry *telling* of his deep love for Ginny came out as typically very bad writing. Not at all something I would expect from JKR. And by the way, if romance doesn't matter, then why put that mushy scene in at all? Why not just TELL us that Harry split up with Ginny, instead of spending all that time showing it? Del From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 13:27:42 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:27:42 -0000 Subject: Aberforth was another former DE, now living in witness protection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135775 > > vmonte: > Actually, I think that Snape is in the Top Wizard category. He is too > much like Iago from Otthelo to be seen as anything else. > > Actually I think he's more like Othello: someone who would have been a complete outcast is not for his usefulness. Also someone who killed the person who trusted him most. a_svirn From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 13:39:39 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:39:39 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135777 Previous posters on this thread: > Merrylinks: >Did Tom Riddle ever store something in one of the vaults [at Gringotts]? This might be an excellent place to hide a Horcrux. > Julie: > > I think you are onto something there. I wonder if the diary was the horcrux left in Hogwarts since he "preserved his 16 year old self." hg replies: I also agree that Gringotts is an excellent hiding place. I got the impression reading Sorcerer's Stone that we'd be returning to Gringott's. Also, that map of the London Underground above Dumbledore's left knee still has yet to "come in handy." Still, Jen points out that, "if ordinary people used Gringotts to protect objects, he would probably reject the idea." Yes, but the function it would serve in the book (one being at Gringotts) is that there is something hidden in plain sight, almost insuring that it will be overlooked by anyone who knows him. Jen also says, "But if he did hide one at Gringotts, I agree it would be the diary. That's the only Horcrux he allowed somone else to safeguard as far as we know, and since he intended it to be a weapon as well as a Horcrux..." And this intrigues me, because I hadn't thought about where had it been from 1945, when he left Hogwarts, to about 1980, or right before his fall. Gringotts, absolutely possible, and if not there, then where? > Jen Reese: So far Riddle's hiding places have been meaningful to his history: the Gaunt House, the cave where he terrorized the children, possibly the cup at Hogwarts. hg: I disagree that the cup will be found at Hogwarts, and I have doubts that it was ever used as one. If it is indeed a Horcrux, he would have had to commit another murder to turn it into one, possibly Dorcas Meadowes' murder, which he committed close to the end of his fall. The three Riddles he killed made three Horcruxes, and I find it unlikely that he killed three people and made only two Horcruxes, saving one murder to use on something "really special." Post 134655 says why I think his award for special services to the school would be appropriately special and why it could likely be the Horcrux we find at Hogwarts, for we are all in agreement that Voldemort wanted to get back in there, and that the story arc has to take us back to Hogwarts, even if Harry isn't in attendance next year. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134655 Furthermore, Voldemort murdered Hepzibah Smith a long time after he graduated; in order for Harry to find a cup Horcrux at Hogwarts, Riddle would have had to make the cup Horcrux and the locket Horcrux at the time of Smith's murder (having saved out a Riddle murder) and slipped the cup Horcrux into the school the night of his interview with Dumbledore. It seems a stretch. I'm definitely stumped on places they'd be. hg. From muellem at bc.edu Sun Jul 31 13:40:38 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:40:38 -0000 Subject: Snape/Regulus, post 135111 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > response to: > > > colebiancardi > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135111 > > hg: > > What's difficult about making this theory work, however, is that it > would necessitate a) Snape knowing about the Horcruxes (if Regulus, > poisoned, came to him), which it really seems he doesn't, or b) Snape > valuing Regulus' life over his own (if his stomach was turned by the > idea of killing Regulus, whether or not it was done, whether he or > another DE did it), which is unlikely, whether he is ESE or not, > knowing Snape. And I don't have any canon to prove it or disprove it. colebiancardi: I posted this on another thread:135710, but I will repost here, as it may answer your question: colebiancardi: I think that this was the opportunity that Snape needed - remember, DD stated in GoF, in the trial scene, that Snape turned spy for them at great personal risk. If Snape was the one who delivered Regulus to DD, against Voldemort's orders that Snape kill Regulus - that is a pretty big personal risk. Sirius stated in OotP that you didn't just leave the Death Eaters - it was a life-long commiment or you were dead. I do believe that Regulus is not the man he was before - he may have mentioned some babbling story about souls and splitting them to DD & Snape, but the true meaning of what Voldemort was planning to do - create 7 horcruxes - was not revealed until HBP. DD already knows about horcruxes, as Slughorn tells Riddle that it is a forbidden knowledge - very Dark Arts. If Slughorn knows about them, I am sure DD does as well. And Snape, being the dark arts guy, would know a thing or two about them as well, I would think. But what Voldy was really up to - not until now did DD know about it. ~end snip And please note, that Dumbledore DID state in the trial scene that Snape turned spy for them "at great personal risk". So, we do know that Snape did value SOMETHING or SOMEONE greater than his own life. >hg: > If I seem to be shooting down your theory, forgive me. I liked it so > much I was compelled to respond, even though you approach a theory in > a reverse process from mine: your theory starts with motive and looks > for the signs, and I nitpick at signs and try to discern what they > might mean. colebiancardi: thank you. How I got to this theory is very strange. I had been reading the boards, about RAB and could it be Regulus, is Snape really working for LV, why did DD trust Snape so much and what was the "great personal risk" think all about? I was falling asleep with these thoughts going round in my head. A statement popped out in my head: Regulus and Snape were in the same house - Slytherin. At that point, I got up and got the few passages that have been written about Regulus and came up with the theory. Also, the "You cannot be killed if you are already dead" line also haunted me. > > I would start with some hard evidence, such as the fact that Sirius > couldn't have been alone in the cave, otherwise the real Horcrux > would still be there. Who could he have been with? And as > tantalizing as it is to think that Regulus is "underground," I think > the Dumbledore/Kreacher scene makes it clear that he's dead. There are also theories that Kreacher went with Regulus to the cave and it was Kreacher who drank the potion. If it was Regulus who drank the potion, then Kreacher would have done anything to save his master, as Kreacher loves those pure-bloods. He only hated Sirius, from as far as we can tell. And Dumbledore would have made the "fake Regulus's death" spell, so that Kreacher and all were fooled. Why else does DD sound so confident when he tells Draco that Draco can be safe, hidden...You cannot be killed if you are already dead? Could it be that DD has done this before, with great success, with Regulus? For 16 years+, this man has been "dead". I think Regulus is in Godric's Hollow and someone is his Secret Keeper. Who could that someone be? > > Okay, here's a what-if: what if it was Snape who was with him, they > left together, Snape turned him in, thereby securing a position close > to Voldemort, and simultaneously Snape told Dumbledore about the > Horcrux, thereby securing a position close to Dumbledore? If that > were the case, what clues would lead us to that conclusion? I could > imagine Snape suspecting or even knowing about one Horcrux. None of > this is anything I can back up with textual evidence, so it makes me > uncomfortable. Since DD stated that LV does not know about that THEY know about the horcruxes, I don't know. However, where does DD get his intel? Snape. So, yes, Snape could be securing positions with both parties. But who is he loyal to? Well, from that same thread, I posted: the TW!Snape - Top Wizard - catagory. I would rather have Snape be a character who is always looking out for himself and his own priorities and once LV is defeated, try to step into the power void left behind, as DD & LV are now gone. But I would rather Snape be a nasty bastard who is still a loyal member of the OotP. ~end snip If that is the case, Snape is neither *good* nor *evil*, just looking out for himself and wanting to be the King of the Wizarding World, once Harry defeats LV. In that case, Snape would be *good* for Harry, because he would help Harry defeat LV. In addition, Snape would be *evil* for Harry, because once LV is gone, how long do you think Snape will allow Harry to live? In the TW!Snape, I have problems with that theory, not because it is not a good one, but that it takes a Slytherin one step beyond their ambitions - that they will risk their necks for it. And I thought Slys were ambitionious up to a point. Well, Riddle proved me wrong on that point. The question is, will Snape? and maybe the key to that answer is that Snape & Riddle are half-blood Slytherins, not pure-blood. Maybe that's the reason why. colebiancardi From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 14:47:56 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:47:56 -0000 Subject: Continuing with Human Snape - Harry and Snape + Sluggy's Party Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135779 I think this is the last post I have today, so I'll have to shut up for about two hours.. LOL The Spinners End scenes reveal cracks in Snapes cold act, and show something of the humanity we've never been so privy to in this enigmatic character. It doesn't end there, either. Heres another couple of interesting things for us to ponder about the Snape we see in HBP. First there's something interesting about Snape when Harry arrives at Hogwarts, the Professor actually might be, by all accounts, arriving too early to collecting Harry. Heres how the scene plays out. As Harry lays on the floor of the Hogwarts express, some ten to twenty minutes passes before Tonks finds him (about how long it takes for a train to be readied for the return journey). It takes a similar amount of time for the Students to get to the feast so lets place the First year students at the doorway, preparing for their Sorting at around the time Tonks revives Harry from the curse Malfoy put on him. Tonks heals Harry shortly afterward and sends her Patronus after they jump out of the doors onto the platform. By now it's likely that the Sorting and Feast are about to start. Hagrid hasn't arrived yet, but as Hermione says, he was only a "few minutes late". While the Patronus is wending its way to Hogwarts the students are chattering amongst themselves, Snape is seated in his usual spot at the head of the Hall looking over the House tables. Now I put to you, does Snape see the Patronus first, or the absence of Harry and the boasting of Draco? Given the timeline, it is fractionally possible that Snape noticed Harry was missing first. Why? Because Tonks Patronus leaves the station around about when the Teachers are seated at the tables already, and Snape uses Hagrids absence as an excuse for coming to collect Harry, but Hagrid arrived at the Hall at *about the same time* as the Patronus will have arrived. Did Snape leave to look for Harry before Tonks Patronus even got there? He's clearly busted using a flawed alibi for being the one to recieve the patronus message from Tonks.. I'll let you decide, if you believe that. But just in anticipation of some counter canon, yes Snape might have intercepted the Patronus on his way out of Hogwarts, and feeling quite satisfied that the boy ws alright he waited in the shadows for the long walk that it took Harry and Tonks to arrive so as not to seem too overly eager to arrive and to make Harry wait in the cold a little longer, since he wasn't in danger anymore. While you ponder canon to shoot down that one, I'll go on with another interesting little Snape trip up. When Snape and Harry begin walking to the doors it is interesting that Snape doesn't speak for a few minutes, during this time Harry is projecting hot hatred at Snape that he find it hard to believe that Snape can't feel. That's interesting. Harry is projecting so hard at Snape that he expects him to feel it? Could this be the Occlumency lessons finally sinking in? Could we liken this to Snapes heart on a sleeve lecture in OOtP? Maybe we could, especially given that Harry porjects his anger and blame and resentment at Snape for several minutes and then Snape cooly begins taking Gryffindor points away from him.. Since when has Snape ever *waited* for the chance to take points? Since Occlumency, maybe? Since he realised that, left alone, Harry would tell him everything and hide nothing anyway? Another few minutes silence with Harry projecting like a madman at Snape and imagining how preferable it would be to be choked by his own blood all the way back to London than tell Snape *Why* he was late... And again Snape appears to be listening in.. because he answers that question. "I suppose you wanted to make a Grand Entrance.. [is *why*]" he says.. Hang about... You're not minding your business are you Sevvie.. Harry remains silent a bit longer thinking Snape only came to collect him so he could needle him some before the feast. Then he thinks to himself maybe I can slip on my cloak.. "No Cloak.." says Snape.. Oh you really are interested aren't you Sevvie.. Then a really fascinating turn, Snapes listening all this while, knowing Harry, confronted with Harry's modesty in undeniable fashion and what does he do.... D.E.N.I.A.L. HA! He's human after all! I am not sure if I've missed one, between these two, if I have I'll catch up. Lets go on to Sluggys Party. When we catch up with Snape he's his usual charming self all the way, then something odd happens.. so odd even Harry notices.. Snape looks afraid. Why is that so odd? Hasn't Harry ever seen Snape afraid before..? Evidently, not. What grips the *Human* Half Blood Prince with fear that he momentarily cannot hide from Harry? It was Draco getting caught sneaking into Slughorns office. Now this is a can of worms with almost every interpretation possible.. Sevvie could be frightened that Draco would be expelled and will get killed by Voldie for failure to finish his job.. (I don't buy that one and I'll tell you why in a minute)or he could be frightened that Draco has just made an attempt on DD's life that he had *no* knowledge of and can't intercept.. oh perhaps.. or you can put whatever other spin you like on it.. In any case there's no denying, something scared Severus. He and Draco sneak off to another room to have a little chat.. Ok not so interesting.. maybe.. But the first thing Harry hears Snape say was.. "If you get expelled -" NO! That's not right... Snapes not worried about that at all.. he couldn't be.. Dumbledore would not allow it. And since Dumbledore has given orders to Snape already (the necklace happened before this and DD says he knew it was Draco) to watch over Draco and ensure his safety from Voldemort. And besides, Draco only crashed a drunk Horace Slughorn's party, Hermione later points out that Sluggy's a pretty consistent person in his habits, and Snape was ex Slug Club, he could easily have guessed that Horace wasn't going to expel Draco at Christmas.. In other words.. Snape *KNOWS* that Draco isn't going to be expelled for sneaking into the office! He isn't worried about that in the least.. So why is he saying he is.. LIAR LIAR... This of course doesn't rule out that he wants DD dead, maybe he's just concerned that if Draco does accidentally kill somebody else that he'll not be able to protect him anymore, so he's just trying to figure out what Draco was up to. Draco didn't seem too pleased to be let in to the party, Snape will have noticed it, like Harry did. It as perfectly obvious he was there for another reason. It is not a stretch of canon to conclude that in that particular scene, for whatever motivation you like, Harry.. Lupin, Arthur and Molly would have been spot on, he was only trying to get Draco to tell him what he was up to. Further on there's a few interesting other points in this conversation. Snape was putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention. This is a clever move for a double agent. Total deniability is created. In DD's eyes he's hindering Draco's efforts, and in LV's eyes he's just trying to get the boy to accept the help of a professional to ensure his success, rather than a pair of dunderheads. Whichever motivation you like, as I said. The best for last however.. Draco says to Snape "Put me in detention! Report me to Dumbledore!" and Snape pauses.. The pause is interesting, because it's not necessary really, unless Snape has something to hide.. He replies quite truthfully: "You know perfectly well that I do not wish to do either of those things." This just begs a critical analysis. Lets look at the many sides of Snape shall we and analyse the meaning of these words. Snape is LV's man: He doesn't want to put Draco in detention and be reported openly trying to stop Draco in his mission. He doesn't want to report Draco to Dumbledore because he wants Draco to succeed in a surprise attack on DD. The things wrong with this are: There is no surprise on DD and Snape knows it. DD is expecting an attack from Draco.. he's already put Snape delicately on the case. And with the detention thing.. he'd be doing this anyway as Dumbledores man so it proves nothing. Snape is Dumbledores man: He doesn't want to put Draco in detention and be reported openly trying to stop Draco in his mission, jeopardising both their lives. He doesn't want to report Draco to Dumbledore because it's pointless, Dumbledore already knows. The things wrong with this are: umm Snape is his own man: He doesn't want to put Draco in detention because he wants him to succeed. He doesn't want to report him to Dumbledore because he wants him to succeed. The things wrong with this are: I can't seem to make it fit.. He's already put Crabbe and Goyle in detention, Dumbledore knows that Malfoy is after him... is it just bias or is there really no way this means Snape's out for himself? That will do for now. But believe me, there is more Human Snape to come.. Valky From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 15:12:33 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:12:33 -0000 Subject: Snape/Regulus, post 135111 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135781 hg had said: What's difficult about making this theory work, however, is that it would necessitate a) Snape knowing about the Horcruxes (if Regulus, poisoned, came to him), which it really seems he doesn't, or b) Snape valuing Regulus' life over his own (if his stomach was turned by the idea of killing Regulus, whether or not it was done, whether he or another DE did it), which is unlikely, whether he is ESE or not, knowing Snape. And I don't have any canon to prove it or disprove it. colebiancardi wrote: > And please note, that Dumbledore DID state in the trial scene that > Snape turned spy for them "at great personal risk". So, we do know > that Snape did value SOMETHING or SOMEONE greater than his own life. hg: Snape at "great personal risk" turned spy, yes. And Kreacher could have been with Regulus, yes. So Snape may not be turning Regulus over to Dumbledore because of brotherhood or Slytherinhood, but because he sees an OPPORTUNITY. That makes sense to me. colebiancardi: I think that this was the opportunity that Snape needed - remember, DD stated in GoF, in the trial scene, that Snape turned spy for them at great personal risk. If Snape was the one who delivered Regulus to DD, against Voldemort's orders that Snape kill Regulus - that is a pretty big personal risk. Sirius stated in OotP that you didn't just leave the Death Eaters - it was a life-long commiment or you were dead. I do believe that Regulus is not the man he was before - he may have mentioned some babbling story about souls and splitting them to DD & Snape, but the true meaning of what Voldemort was planning to do - create 7 horcruxes - was not revealed until HBP. ...For 16 years+, this man has been "dead". I think Regulus is in Godric's Hollow and someone is his Secret Keeper. Who could that someone be? hg: In this scenario, Snape would have provided an antidote to Regulus, handed him over to Dumbledore, and the two of them would know something about one horcrux. It wouldn't be until the diary was destroyed and THEN Voldemort came back anyway, that Dumbledore was thinking there must be more than one. Why would Dumbledore go after the locket, then? Would Regulus in that situation, saved by Snape and Dumbledore, not tell them that he got the Horcrux? And if he were hidden in Godric's Hollow, then how did he get the locket home to his house? colebiancardi: Dumbledore would have made the "fake Regulus's death" spell, so that Kreacher and all were fooled. Why else does DD sound so confident when he tells Draco that Draco can be safe, hidden...You cannot be killed if you are already dead? Could it be that DD has done this before, with great success, with Regulus? hg: I think that's one likely reason Dumbledore would say what he says on the tower, but I can't see it as the only reason. First off, like Voldemort, JK doesn't usually serve only one purpose with an action; she usually has layers. Secondly, I'm not convinced that Dumbledore is dead, or even that Dumbledore was himself. I'm starting to get the impression from reading the boards that those who are in the "Dumbledore's still alive" camp are radicals, but I've been working on a theory toward that. However, unlike you, I'm not gifted in figuring out motives; I'm just juggling a lot of curious evidence, so I'm stuck. colebiancardi: [Perhaps] Snape is neither *good* nor *evil*, just looking out for himself and wanting to be the King of the Wizarding World, once Harry defeats LV. In that case, Snape would be *good* for Harry, because he would help Harry defeat LV. In addition, Snape would be *evil* for Harry, because once LV is gone, how long do you think Snape will allow Harry to live? I have problems with that theory [Top Wizard Snape], not because it is not a good one, but that it takes a Slytherin one step beyond their ambitions - that they will risk their necks for it. And I thought Slys were ambitious up to a point. Well, Riddle proved me wrong on that point. The question is, will Snape? And maybe the key to that answer is that Snape & Riddle are half-blood Slytherins, not pure-blood. Maybe that's the reason why. hg: At the very least, we might conclude that Slytherins would risk their necks -- to save themselves? To save and better (or more empower) themselves? Because it's so overarchingly important for them to get credit for their own work? Would this, then, explain why, if Dumbledore and Snape did put Regulus underground, he then didn't tell Dumbledore that he'd taken the Horcrux and swapped it? Because he wants credit for it? I definitely think there's a real strong reason why JK showed us how Slughorn faked his own death in chapter 4, and why Dumbledore offers this option to Draco in the Tower chapter; we know it's possible and now are free to wonder where it's been done before. Regulus is one of a handful for whom "the body was never found," so it gets me thinking. Who else would Dumbledore be hiding besides Regulus? hg. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 15:19:26 2005 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:19:26 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135782 Julie wrote: I respectfully submit that Snape didn't react to the word "coward" when Harry said it the second time. He doesn't really care if Harry or anyone else thinks he's cowardly in general. He reacted specifically to being called a coward for *killing* Dumbledore. And this seems a bit of evidence supporting the SecretlyGood!Snape theory, for why else would Snape be so pained and enraged by being called a coward for that action, if in fact it wasn't because it was the one thing he did that took the most courage he'd ever mustered? vmonte Responds: Sorry, I see it as supporting the ESE Snape. You are right that Snape could care less about James and Gang--in fact he probably thinks that James and Sirius deserved what they got. But he feels quite differently about Dumbledore. I've been trying to profile Snape based on his personality traits. I started doing some research and came across this: "The Authoritarian Personality wants to fit into a chain of command and to be told what to do (submissive to a superior), and by the same token, will countenance no flak when giving orders to those in the hierarchy below. At the same time s/he is aggressive towards others, especially those considered to be lesser in some way (e.g. of a different faith or ethnicity, or a different species). Racism and bigotry are common in the personality type. The Hitler Youth were prime examples of this. Authoritarians like to be herded like sheep even as they enjoy command. That mind-set exists across all political, economic, and religious spectra. And, it afflicts both genders. Authoritarians are distinguished by the degrees of which their behavior matches the bullets below." ? Control and power ? Cynicism and arrogance ? Destructiveness ? Fixed Ideas ? Lack of introspection and insight ? Narrow disciplined outlook ? Paranoid if they think you do not believe as they do ? Polarizing "either/or" thinking ? Religious fundamentalism ? Excessive conformity ? Intolerance ? Insecurity ? Rigid, stereotyped thought patterns "Authoritarian personalities often develop from an upbringing of rigid discipline and conditional affection. Adorno identified the authoritarian personality type as having the following characteristics: They become anxious and insecure when events or circumstances upset their previously existing world view. They are very intolerant of any divergence from what they consider to be the normal (which is usually conceptualized in terms of their religion, race, history, nationality, culture, language, etc.) They tend to be very superstitious and lend credence to folk tales or interpretations of history that fit their preexisting definitions of reality. They think in extremely stereotyped ways about minorities, women, homosexuals, etc. They are thus very dualistic; the world is conceived in terms of absolute right (their way) Vs. absolute wrong." "Further study of this personality type has since shown that Authoritarians not only like to take orders but they love to give them and to have people they can look down upon. This, of course, amounts to prejudice in the forms of bigotry, racism, sexism, and the like." vmonte: This of course led me to look up the psychology of a terrorist: "Psychological forces cause terrorists to rationalize their actions. The "us versus them" mentality causes the terrorist to displace blame on the victim or on the target audience, saying that it is "their" fault and "they" deserve to suffer from the terrorist's actions. A terrorist may also displace blame onto a superior saying that he is taking an order. In addition, a terrorist dehumanizes the victim in order to relieve himself of some of the guilt associated with committing the killing. Further, narcissistic wounding, occurring in formative years may cause psychological imbalances in making a person particularly susceptible to a terrorist lifestyle. These feelings of humiliation or inferiority may make a child grow to blame the society which turned its back. Thus the matured terrorist seeks to reaffirm his existence and importance via violence." Perlman, Diane. "Intersubjective Dimensions of Terrorism and Its Transcendence" The Psychology of Terrorism : A Public Understanding, ed. Stout, Chris E. (London: Praeger, 2002) 17-47 "Kaplan (1981) assumes that terrorist behaviour is pathological. He differentiates between the reasons and causes of terrorism by proposing that reasons are the social variables that facilitate terrorism or help rationalize terrorist behavior. However, he says that the causes of terrorist behavior "must be sought in the psychopathology of the assassin" (p. 36). He proposes that terrorists have a pathological need to pursue absolute ends. Kaplan proposed that this is an overreaction to childhood experiences of humiliation at the hands of an aggressor, which results in a sense of failure and lack of self-esteem. Thus, their personality is defective and cannot cope with life stress through socially appropriate means." vmonte: I'm not a pscyhologist, and I'm sure that someone will find evidence that Snape's behavior throughout the books is completely normal. I however, think that Snape probably justified Dumbledore's murder 'by displacing the blame onto DD.' And I think that there is a reason why Snape became very upset about being called a coward. It's because Harry forced Snape to face up to what he has done. I don't think that Snape is going to be able to "compartmentalize" his feelings in this instance because DD was the one person in Snape's life that gave him unconditional love. Snape's reaction to being called a coward confirms to me that Snape has underlying guilt that is (already) nagging at him. He may not be able to live with what he has done. Vivian From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 15:23:16 2005 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:23:16 -0400 Subject: Harry's Abilities (WAS Re: Am I the only one...) In-Reply-To: References: <007101c595ba$c7f56110$31c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135783 Valky: > Onto another matter, I recall a thread earlier that discussed Harry > having no ability to match Snape. I'd like to take this opportunity to > differ greatly on that. During the DADA lesson that was focussed upon > the use of non-verbal defense, Snape made to attack Harry in a very > fast move and without warning. Harry beat him to the mark, verbal or > non-verbal Snape was no match for Harry's gut reflex. Remembering that > Hermione quoted the book on nonverbal magic saying that the point was > to give the caster a "split-second" advantage notice how JKR points > out Harry's ability to make the split second advantage moot, he's just > that fast in defense. OTOH in Flight of the Prince, Harry's attacking > of Snape seems to put him right off his game, which seems to say a lot > about what Harry's talents will limit for him, but it definitely > doesn't take away the brilliance he showed in the DADA clasroom or his > outshooting of Draco in the bathroom, albeit with disastrous > consequences. Another point to add in Harry's favour: Harry had just witnessed Dumbledore's death (or supposed death, depending on what camp you're in). He's emotionally distraught, and Harry just isn't good when he lets his emotions get the better of him; we've seen this time and time again. On top of that, the first thing you learn in any self-defense class is that you must keep calm; the person who is calm generally prevails over the person who isn't. In the Flight Of The Prince, Snape is certainly keeping his cool up until the end, while Harry is just throwing jinxes to appease his anger. In my opinion, you cannot take this scene to say that Harry is lacking in potential and/or power. While I still wouldn't say that Harry is a wizard of Snape's caliber, Harry is still fairly proficient and has proven himself so, more times that some (many?) people on this list seems to have given him credit for. In GoF, he proved that, if he applies himself, he has a great capacity for learning. To echo a remark [Lexicon] Steve made, I'm hoping that this means that Harry will learn and improve in the future since, at this point, he's ill-equipped to handle Voldemort. However, Harry has proven he has the capacity to become a great wizard, so here's to hoping that Book 7 isn't a disappointment. ~Ali From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 15:38:09 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:38:09 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135784 Julie wrote: > "However, I like things being implied and left to my interpretation." > Del replied: > I *love* things being implied. But where Ginny and Harry are > concerned, *nothing* is implied. I have NO canon basis to start > imagining a relationship between Harry and Ginny. We have ONE scene > between just the two of them in the entire canon, and that was long > before they were dating. > > But the real problem, for me, is that JKR meant MUCH more than > implication. She meant us to KNOW that Harry and Ginny love each other very much. The scene where Harry splits up with Ginny makes sense only if the readers care about the relationship, if they know about it, if they know how intense it is, how much of a sacrifice it is for Harry to propose to end the relationship, and how selfless it is for Ginny to let Harry go. Except that by the time I got there, I knew NOTHING of their relationship, I sure had NOT realised that it was supposed to be The Real Deal. So the scene fell horribly flat, and Harry *telling* of his deep love for Ginny came out as typically very bad writing. Not at all something I would expect from JKR. > > And by the way, if romance doesn't matter, then why put that mushy > scene in at all? Why not just TELL us that Harry split up with Ginny, instead of spending all that time showing it? **Marcela now: I have to agree with Del here. We had read five books prior to HBP in which everytime Harry did something, we knew the reasons for his actions. Even when he acted on impulse, like in CoS when he decided to plunge the Basilisk's fang in the Diary, we - the readers- knew that Harry had listened to an inner voice telling him to do it. When he wanted to ask Cho out for the Ball in GoF, we had a full chapter dedicated to this question, we knew all about his fear of rejection, his tongue freezing in front of her, etc. When he blew up Aunt Marge in PoA we knew all about his anger and hunger for revenge. When he saw Snape's memories in the Pensieve we knew all about his inner turmoil about his parents and Sirius's behaviour. But when we are at Dumbledore's funeral, in only two lines we are supposed to learn that Harry had been pondering about breaking up with Ginny for a while already, and that it had been something he'd been dreading to do but that had to be done. I'm sorry, but that came out of the blue, in a horrible and unpredictable manner for Jo's record. If you then add Ginny's "I never gave up on you" when she'd been dating two boys for roughly the past two years. The cherry on the top was Harry's "...years maybe..." o.O! He'd been drooling after Cho during all those years, for pete's sake! In all honesty and with no interview statements mixing in here, I thought that Jo was going for her typical approach: not letting her readers get too involved with a character she's going to kill soon, just like she did with Cedric, Sirius and Dumbledore. I'm hoping that if H/G is going to survive HP7, she'd do more justice to it. Marcela From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 15:42:23 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:42:23 -0000 Subject: Ginny VS Harry / Re: HBP Review in Globe and Mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" wrote: > > drjuliehoward at y...> wrote: > > I do not think she has failed. I just don't think the romantic > > pairings are as important to JKR as the main storyline. She > > simply can't include everything that all of her fans want to read. > Joj responded: > I don't think any of us who were disappointed in H/G romance want Jo > to write it as a romance novel. My problem comes in Jo telling us > at the end (with the Spiderman break-up) that Harry and Ginny have > this deep relationship or love and that's the first we realize it. > Would it really be asking for too much to have ONE scene where we > see Harry and Ginny connect on an emotional level? > Physical attraction is an important aspect in relationships, but if > we're to believe in this soul-mate senario, give us one heart to > heart! Max responds: I agree Joj. I couldn't shake the feeling during HBP that I was reading a *heavily* edited version of the H/G relationship. I wouldn't be surprised if half the exposition ended up on the cutting room floor. JKR has mentioned in recent interviews that she felt OotP was too long. My theory is that she felt under intense pressure to keep HBP well shy of OotP's length, and the H/G relationship suffered for it. Max From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 31 16:04:24 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:04:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore ... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "diliapacheco" wrote: > Marianne: > However, my impression is that [Occlumency] is now a non- starter - Harry doesn't need this to protect himself from the invasions of Vmort. Why? Because Harry has the ability to > love people, which is anethema to Vmort. > > > Dilie wrote: > I don't think you took that conversation that DD had with HP about > Occlumancy the way some of us did You see, LV is currently using > Occlumancy to protect himself from Harry and the Order. However, that does not mean that when LV wants to check out if DD is really dead, he wont go through Harry's thoughts, which are obviously pretty easy to see. Lets face it, that's not one of his forte. > Marianne: Agreed, we're probably interpreting the conversation in two different ways. And, again agreed Harry is not good at blocking his thoughts, but he's full of information now about the search for the Horcruxes, something that Voldemort might find interesting to learn. To me, that's another indication that there is less concern on DD's part of the invasion of Harry's mind by Vmort. > Marianne: > Agreed, but, he will be the hero if DD has indeed bit the > proverbial dust. If Dumbledore rises and again leads the way, then Harry is no more than the hammer DD needs to pound in that last nail in the coffin. > > > Dilia wrote: > Again, we are failing to see at the same way. A mentor does not push you through the way; he shows you, and most of the time, he > facilitates many troubles that may be in the way. If we concur on > this, than maybe we are getting somewhere. > Marianne: Absolutely I concur on the role of a mentor. My gut reaction though is that Dumbledore's role as active mentor is over. Yes, he may have left more information for Harry, or his portrait may share insights in Book 7, but I don't see him playing an active role because I believe he is dead. So, we're almost on the same page, but I guess this is the point at which I take a detour! As an aside, assuming that Portrait!DD has words to tell Harry regarding the Horcruxes, and since Harry has taken DD's words to heart about not telling anyone other than Ron and Hermione about them, do you think they will ask McGonagall to vacater her own office so they can have a private chat? > Marianne: > Well, if JKR's only reason to bump off Sirius is to make me believe > that DD could also die, when she's really planning on bringing him > back, then that's an incredibly stupid reason. Especially, if what > you seem to suggest is some authorial sleight of hand: Sirius is > killled off, so I'll believe it when DD is apparently killed. And, > then, in Book 7, DD springs up alive? And, I'm supposed to be > happy about this? I'd feel manipulated in the extreme. > > > Dilia wrote: > No, no, no. Why do you have to call it stupid? We've been over this in other messages on the same topic. It could be that Dumbledore was > interested in Harry seeing him die. For instance, if Harry finally > sees Dumbledore, the best Wizard ever, die before his eyes, maybe > just maybe he would finally realize that he is also human. And with this, he would start to believe in himself, mature a lot, and > acknowledge the great wizard he also is. Since in all the books he > always doubts his powers, he is just human. In conclusion, I guess Dumbledore wanted Harry to meditate on his death, so that he starts believing in himself, as he did at the end of the 6th book, where it is obvious he has matured a lot. Marianne: You're right - this is what I get for jumping into the middle of the discussion without knowing the nuances. Sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. My reply to your post stems from a discussion I had with a friend who went though a detailed summation of why Dumbledore is not dead, and I simply don't agree with that. We'll see eventually which is the truth, and I readily admit I don't have a great track record with predicting JKR's surprises. From maxximus787 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 03:38:05 2005 From: maxximus787 at yahoo.com (maxximus787) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 03:38:05 -0000 Subject: Whose orders was Snape following? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135787 saraquel_omphale: > > Secondly the whole locket thing. Do I smell fish here? If the obvious is true, and R.A.B. is a person and not an acronym, then of course Regulus Black springs to mind, plus the "heavy locket that none of them could open" OotP p108 which was in the cabinet at the Black family home and could well have been one of the "small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpie like, from Sirius's purge of the house" OotP p445, which was then passed on in Mundungus' meeting with the barman at the Hogshead (who I think we all know is Aberforth) HBP p231 which might then, very easily have passed onto DD, way, way before the outing to the cave. I really agree with the points you made. Especially about Regulus Black and the locket. I mostly agree because, yeah it does make sense about the whole locket found in 12GP, but also because it would seem very rash and unlike JK to thrown in another character from nowhere and have Harry spend most of his year tracking him down just for one Horcrux. Another reason that points to it being Regulus Black is that the note says "To the Dark Lord" and I could be mistaken but I think only DE's have refered to LV that way. I also think that there is a chance that DD is still alive, because as someone else pointed out when someone is usually hit with AK they jus collapse with a shoked face, unlike DD who flew and had a serene close eyed face. OR at least he knew Snape was going to kill him and had it planned out with him somewhat. He must have know this because he knew Snape would have to leave the school, so he gave him the cursed job. This also leads to my next statement about truely believing what you said about the cave incedent to be fake. DD was very eager to teach Harry all about LV's weakness because he knew he was going to die. Not just that he seemed too eager to bring Harry along on his escapade to the cave. DD allowed Harry to come along on this trip to get another Horcrax when last time even DD couldn't stop the curses from the ring from almost killing him. I mean why would DD put Harry in that much danger. Plus it gave him a perfect chance to drink the drink and become weakened so that someone would actually have a chance at "killing" him. maxximus From oreocookies_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 05:30:18 2005 From: oreocookies_2000 at yahoo.com (Diane) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 05:30:18 -0000 Subject: Harrys grief Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135788 To anyone that is thinking that it is not normal for Harry to be wanting to talk about Sirius. Well, I have 2 teenage boys and they lost their dad 6 years ago, and they don't want to talk about him and when I try, they change the subject. Diane From tamaraburuma at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 14:12:08 2005 From: tamaraburuma at yahoo.com (tamaraburuma) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:12:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135789 I think there might be two reasons why we see so little of Harry's relation with Ginny. First of all, personally, I liked having a lot of room to imagine there relation. Harry is after all, the main character, and this is supposed to be his perfect relationship. But isn't the perfect relationship different to every one? Now, because we get so little information, we can imagine a perfect relationship for them, just like we would want to see it. I can imagine however that this doesn't really correspond with the massive amount of information we get on other parts of Harry's life, so I am not sure this really was JKR's intention or just an (in my opinion nice) side-effect. I do however feel that the fact that we see little of H/G together is precisely the thing that makes there relationship 'deeper' than for example Harry's relation with Cho. During the entire book we, and Harry himself, get hints that he likes Ginny (he smells her in Amortentia, the love potion, he doesn't want to see her with Dean etc.). When they finally get together, this is completely natural for Harry, and the state he is supposed to be in to be very happy. His relation isn't something he has to think about anymore. He doesn't have to feel akward or think about the way he is supposed to behave when he is around her. With Cho, having a relation was really hard work. With Ginny however, it's natural, and therefor doesn't really need a lot of explanation. I think that kind of relationship is much deeper than the one with Cho. By not writing to much about it, JKR has created a relation so natural and complete that the break-up scene is entirely justified. The fact that the break-up was very mature (they both understood why it had to be done, even though they didn't like it) only fits in with this picture. All in all, I am very pleased with the way their relation is descriped. One last question however continues to nag me; how will they both respond during Bill's wedding? Will they stay together until then? Harry had forgotten about the wedding when they split up, so maybe he can still spend I nice time with her. Tamara From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 14:44:28 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:44:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ginny VS Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135790 Cindy wrote: > Why? To me, their relationship evolved appropriately for most 15/16 year olds. Spending time together, exploring physical and emotional aspects of being together--and kids that age can get pretty desperate for each other in their own heads in an extremely short ammount of time. That being said, I don't think JKR wrote anything near a break-up of soul mates. Harry and Ginny didn't get dramatic, Ginny didn't even cry. Neither of them talked about a "what if" scenario for the future, but both of them have experienced Voldmort first hand, and both know they could be used against each other. A very grown up decision by two kids who had been friends first and going through the beginnings of a romantic relationship that just ran out of time. Marianne S: I think you hit some very important points that I should have mentioned in my last post, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135761 The fact that Ginny didn't cry but expected and accepted this break doesn't at all make it a permanent break up, but it shows (and even states) that Ginny perfectly understands Harry and can accept what he must do... she even likes him all the more for it. I also think that their interraction throughout was completely appropriate for MOST 15/16 year olds, and frankly it is really nice to see a character like Harry, whose life and happiness most of us readers has really grown to care about, have a chance to experience this normal and healthy kind of relationship (unlike the one with Cho, which I thought was more educational than healthy) that is able to bring him somuch comfort and happiness. It is a perfect complement to JKRs themes of love and choices. Perhaps JKR even meant this relationship with Ginny can even be a subtle message to young readers. That is, it is normal to have these kinds of feelings; a relationship with someone you've been friends with and grown to have stronger feelings for will be more satisfying than something that is just physical for the sake of having a girlfriend/boyfriend (like Won Won and Lavender); any relationship that is really worth holding on to is one that can also stand the test of time and letting the other person go. This, my friends, was only the beginning of what I think will be a beautiful relationship. Of course, this is my opinion, influenced by my own interest and enjoyment of the books as well as my appreciation of them to educate and inspire younger readers. Marianne S From schumar1999 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 16:11:20 2005 From: schumar1999 at yahoo.com (Marianne S.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:11:20 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135791 Juli : > "Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him [James], you coward--" Marianne S: I agree with most of your analysis of the first and second time Harry calls Snape cowardly (though I think you meant the name in parentheses to be Dumbledore? However... Juli wrote: > Then Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the face, and is slammed back against the ground. (And is the first, and only, time Snape physically takes action against Harry) Marianne S: I don't believe that white-hot whiplike somethng that hit him was from Snape. I believe it was buckbeak's wing as the hippogriff is on its way to attack Snape. So, and I think I've said it before, I don't believe that Snape EVER attacked Harry directly, but only kept instructing him til the end. Clearly Snape must know about the horcruxes in order to have helped Dumbledore after the ring... and as far as we know, the only other ones who know are Harry, Ron, Hermione, likely Slughorn.. and R.A.B. Anyone else have thoughts as to who else might know about the Horcruxes? I surmise that it takes a LOT more courage than we know about at this point to -- 1) still make LV believe that you're on his side, despite reporting everything you know to Dumbledore. (I think even the fact that Snape tells Bellatrix that Dumbledore recently sustained an injury, but he doesn't add that Snape himself knew what to do and acted to save DD's life was significant proof that Snape's not telling Voldemort everything, yet Dumbledore's knowledge of what Draco's been up to seem to support that he is telling all to the headmaster.) 2) It takes a lot of courage to follow orders to kill the only person who truly and deeply trusts you. . 3) It takes perhaps even more courage to have to make yourself appear to be the bad guy by the people whose side you're actually on (the Order) in order to most effectively continue your more and more dangerous task... following Dumbledore's orders which not only includes clearing the path for the death and demise of Voldemort, but keeping Draco and perhaps even Harry safe. The other Order members and teachers who trusted Snape only seem to because Dumbledore insists on it and won't hear a word against him... Lupin, who had other reasons to trust Snape than just Dumbledore's word, seems the most shattered by the *belief* that Snape killed Dumbledore acting only as a Death Eater. So, by following Dumbledore's orders, Snape has put himself in more personal danger than he ever has been in before So what I really can't wait to find out in Book 7 is... will Harry find this out before it's too late? Marianne S. From chp2 at ne.rr.com Sun Jul 31 16:25:52 2005 From: chp2 at ne.rr.com (nocobuzz) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:25:52 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135792 Hi Julie, I agree with you whole-heartedly...about the dueling scene at the end fueling the argument for Snape as a good guy. Actually, I think you could make an argument that he is still working for DD and the Order in every scene in which he appears. Of course, some very strong arguments for Snape being a true DE can be made for most of these scenes also. In "Spinner's End" I (even on the first reading) thought that he must really know of LV's plan to use Draco and had reported everything to DD. Thus, the pause when Narcissa added the third part to the Unbreakable Vow. He must have already known that LV had tasked Draco with killing DD and, I believe, he had already reported this to DD. Apparently nobody knew of Draco's plan to use the two- way cabinet and DD wanted Snape to find out how Draco was planning to kill him. Again, the dueling scene just confirms that Snape is still faithful to DD. At the very least, he had a number of chances to kill Harry (which would certainly please LV, no matter what Snape said to the contrary) and not only didn't do it but prevented anyone else from doing so. I honestly we will learn that Snape has been working for DD since he turned from the Dark Lord and, although he is a pretty nasty person, is ultimately good. nocobuzz From abigail1848 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 07:49:40 2005 From: abigail1848 at hotmail.com (abigaileire) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:49:40 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's Tarot Tarot Reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135793 leslie41 wrote: > But it's not just muttering. She's doing a reading. She pulls out > the two of spades (conflict), seven of spades (ill omen), ten of > spades (violence), and knave of spades?"A dark young man, possibly > troubled, who dislikes the questioner." > > Trelawney is doing, in fact, a tarot card reading. Spades are the > lesser arcana's version of swords, and the brief interpretations > that Trelawney gives as she walks support this. Abi replies: One teeny problem I have come across, in the interview on TLC: "JKR: It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water" Gryffindor is fire, hmm? And the symbol of Gryffindor is the sword, as in the sword that belonged to the founder. So if JKR goes by this correspondence (a lesser used correspondence, but still common enough --- have had many a discussions on this myself!) then the spades in Trelawney's reading would be in fact from the fire suit. The interpretations given in the OP were for the swords as considered the air suit. So, here is a brief interpretation of the fire suit cards, as taken from "78 Degrees of Wisdom" 2: He is bored, his accomplishments have only served to wall him in... [the] love of batle and challenge can leave one with no real satisfaction in actual accomplishments when the fight has been won... Here one person stands alone, walled in by his success." 7: "... a card of conflict... here we see the battle itself... [fire] expect[s] to win, and they usually do... we become defensive and committed to fighting through an earlier experience of winning, staying on top... only later does the habit of constant battle close them in." 10: "His [fire] eagerness has involved him in so many situtations that now, paradoxically, that very energy is weighed down with commitments and problems... He or she has made the situation and needs to realize that other approaches are still possible." knave: I was taught that when doing a tarot reading with playing cards, the "jack" was the knight, or, was a combination of the knight and page. According to 78 Degrees of Wisdom: Page: "indicates the start of projects, and in particular an announcement to the world, and ourselves, that we are ready to begin either a project... or a new phase of life." Knight: "represents eagerness, action, movement for its own sake, andventure and travel. Without some grounding influence all this excitement can dissipate itself as he tries to fly in every direction at once." Maybe I am reading too much into her comment during the interview. However, if she was consistent, then the cards were actually fire cards. Wonder which she actually meant? ~abi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 17:34:09 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:34:09 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135794 > Juli wrote: > > Then Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the > face, and is slammed back against the ground. (And is the first, and > only, time Snape physically takes action against Harry) > > Marianne S: I don't believe that white-hot whiplike somethng that hit him was from Snape. > I believe it was buckbeak's wing as the hippogriff is on its way to attack Snape. Alla: I disagree. Buckbeak shows up AFTER Snape's attack. "And he slashed at the air: Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike something hit him across the facea dn was slammed backward into the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes and for a moment all the breath seemed to have gone from his body, then he heard a rush wings above him and something enormous obscured the stars". _ HBP, p.604 Moreover Buckbeack flies very high, I don't think he could touch Harry even if he tried. Since I am very much with Dan on his idea of Snape somehow learning second part of the prohecy and wanting Harry to take out Voldie and THEN take his palce, I believe that that was the only reason Snape stop DE from attacking Harry, since he could have think that they may kill him. Snape obviously does not think too much of Harry's fighting abilities. But Snape himself feels perfectly fine to inflict pain on Harry: a) because "Coward" really got under his skin: b) Snape knows the strength of his own curses and measured this curse in order to hurt Harry, not to kill him. > vmonte: > And I think that there is a reason why Snape became very upset about > being called a coward. It's because Harry forced Snape to face up to > what he has done. Alla: I agree, Vivian. Deb: This is not about blame, it's about responsibility and learning > from one's experiences. I still say Harry has a lot to learn if he > is to ultimately vanquish Voldemort. Alla: I disagree, Deb. I think Harry already has what it take to vanquish Voldie somehow. Don't get me wrong. he needs to learn a lot as wizzard, BUT JKR intends him to do it with "power Dark Lord knows not", right? And that Harry has plenty, IMO. Now, Snape may THINK that Harry does not have that ability yet, but I think he is in a for a big surprise in book 7. :-) Just my opinion of course, Alla. From dlatchman at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 16:45:34 2005 From: dlatchman at gmail.com (David L.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:45:34 -0400 Subject: Sluggy, drunk, told Snape about the chosen one In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135795 dan wrote: > "Severus, the most extraordinary thing. Potter told me he was the > chosen one. He said he's the one who has to kill the Dark Lord." > When Snape sees Albus on the tower...He is enraged. He's never been trusted. It was all just crap. Snape knew that Harry is the chosen one. It was reported in the Prophet for some time now and the larger wizarding community also view him as that. We know that Snape reads the Prophet regularly as we have seen him talk about the articles frequently in class to ridicule Harry. So there is hardly a reason for him to feel out of the loop as regards to Harry being the "Chosen One" David L. From caesian at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 17:44:29 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:44:29 -0700 Subject: Snape didn't have to Message-ID: <018BEDEF-AF88-4333-8F33-72F2C475871E@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135796 The fine print of the Unbreakable Vow argues against the theory that Snape is simply ESE. Snape agreed to three conditions in his unbreakable vow: "Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?" "And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?" "And, should it prove necessary ... if it seems Draco will fail ... will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" I don't know exactly how the Unbreakable Vow works, or how the precise wording and/or intentions of the participants is assessed - but, it looks to me as if, like Prophesy, a certain amount of human manipulation of circumstances is possible. If these things are true, then Snape cannot *simply* be ESE. If Snape is ESE, and cares only for himself, killing DD would not have been as attractive as simply *strongly encouraging* Draco to kill him. Draco was present, and nothing in the wording of the Vow prevents this. He has already repeatedly offered Draco help, so this is not forbidden. Should Draco have done the dead with Snape's encouragement, the end, for the vow, would have been similar. Further, he was sworn to watch over Draco, and protect him from harm (and no doubt Draco will be harmed for his failure regardless of whether DD is dead). IMO, SS did not HAVE to kill Dumbledore himself under the terms of the vow. The fact that he did so, rather than attempting to make Draco do so, is significant. Cheers, caesian From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 31 18:32:05 2005 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:32:05 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffindor's In-Reply-To: <20050731062204.58282.qmail@web32112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Morgan Adams wrote: [Sorting hat] > It has been mentioned. I believe that the sword is of more importance. I actually think that the Sorting Hat is the more likely candidate. All Voldemort needed was a few minutes alone with it. We have seen Harry waiting alone for DD in his office, so it's conceivable that Voldemort in his time had done so as well (with the previous headmaster who did not suspect him). Why the Sorting Hat? First because it is a much more important object than the sword - it is the one used to determine where students go in the school. While it does not appear to have become evil, we don't know enough about Horcruxes to tell how being made into one changes the basic characteristics of the object, except for DD's assertion (from memory - my book is on loan) that he suspected the Diary was a Horcrux because it was more independent and animated than it should have been. If we consider the behaviour of the Sorting Hat, it has the ability to pass judgement and make decisions well beyond deciding who goes to what house (as seen in CoS and in his warning to the school in OoP) - especially when Voldemort is concerned - could it be that the Hat was indeed made into a Horcrux and does not like it?... In addition, the sword was only seen in one book, but we see the Sorting Hat mentioned and sometimes playing a part in most of the books - sometimes a crucial part (as in CoS). It would be in line with JKR style to make this ever present entertaining object into a crucial piece of evidence. I also think that at the end of the books the four houses may be abolished and merged into one. If so, it would be fitting to destroy the object that splits the students into them (contrary to its own desire it seems), which certainly must happen if it is indeed a Horcrux. >We know that Riddle tried twice to stay at Hogwarts after graduation. >I believe that his intention was to use the sword (or maybe even the >Sorting Hat) as a horcrux. Yes, I suspect that too. He wanted to stay in Hogwarts for some nepharious reasons, which may or may not have related to the Horcruxes. For instance, he may have wanted access to the Chamber which at the time still contained a live basilisk and in my opinion has more than that still hidden inside. He may have wanted to make the basilisk his Horcrux - it is certainly a more impressive snake than Nagini. > I don't think, though, that he ever succeeded in getting to the >sword, the Sorting Hat, or Fawkes. I think he was forced to use >another object for the horcrux signifying Gryffindor. We don't know do we. I would not at all be surprised if he has managed to use the Sorting Hat. In fact too many indications point that way. > Whatever did happen to Sirius's motorbike? Nah, how could he have used that and why is that an important object? Salit From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 18:58:46 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:58:46 EDT Subject: Did Snape know about the Horcruxes? (was Re: Snape/Regulus, post 135111) Message-ID: <140.4916784b.301e7966@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135798 hg wrote: Okay, here's a what-if: what if it was Snape who was with him, they left together, Snape turned him in, thereby securing a position close to Voldemort, and simultaneously Snape told Dumbledore about the Horcrux, thereby securing a position close to Dumbledore? If that were the case, what clues would lead us to that conclusion? I could imagine Snape suspecting or even knowing about one Horcrux. None of this is anything I can back up with textual evidence, so it makes me uncomfortable. Your turn! hg. Actually, one piece of supporting evidence for Snape knowing about the Horcruxes is his quick action in saving Dumbledore from the effects (or at least most of them) from the ring horcrux. I mentioned it before, but could Snape have cured Dumbledore if he didn't know what he was working against? Especially when it was such a bad curse, one that left Dumbledore with that blackened hand, and that necessitated Snape working quickly to save him? It's possible, but it seems more probable that Dumbledore told Snape what he'd done, especially since Snape's no dummy and certainly could have drawn his own reasonable conclusions. I don't know if your theory is right, and Snape told Dumbledore about the horcruxes long ago (though I like it), or if Dumbledore told Snape when Snape saved him from the ring horcrux, but it seems likely either way that Snape knew about horcruxes, and perhaps specifically knew Voldemort was making them. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moosiemlo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 19:07:04 2005 From: moosiemlo at yahoo.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reasons for Patronus change/ A little about JKR and romance In-Reply-To: <1122821410.2610.87262.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050731190704.60957.qmail@web30014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135799 CathyD wrote JKR did not say (it was part 2 of the interview) that the romance between Tonks and Lupin was a red herring. What she said was: " I've used that on Percy and I've used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it's so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance?" Throughout most of the book we were let believe Tonks was in love with Sirius, upset about Sirius' death, the change in her patronus, and that perhaps Mrs. Weasley wanted Tonks at the Burrow to come between Bill and Fleur. JKR wanted us to get the idea that something was wrong with Tonks, that she'd been Imperiused or that who we were seeing as Tonks was really someone Polyjuiced to look like Tonks. That was the red herring in this case, she truly is in love with Lupin. However, and perhaps JKR doesn't know she did it, back in Order of the Phoenix, whenever we see Tonks being clumsy, tripping over the troll leg, knocking over chairs, breaking the plate at the Dursleys, she's always within about 20 feet of Remus. Lynda says: I was surprised while reading HBP at the apparent depression that Tonks was feeling over Sirius death, not that the death of a relative in a manner which is extremely violent does not and should not cause deep grieving, but because to me, it was obvious from OOtP that Tonks was in love with Lupin. She's overly clumsy in his presence, hangs around him as much as possible,etc. So when her patronus changed, and characters were speculating that it might be a dog, I thought, "a dog, yeah, maybe--but couldn't it be a werewolf? She was interested in Lupin. I know she was from the context of the last book." Also, just a bit here on the romantic relationships throughout the books. If you think about it, there's not a lot of romance in the books at all. Its nearly all outside the text. There are no tender scenes between the Dursleys. Although Arthur and Molly have a loving relationship almost nothing physical is shown between them. Hermione and Viktor go out together, as do Ginny and Michael Corner and then Ginny and Dean, but with the exception of the snogging in HBP, almost nothing is shown. Of course, we were treated to a little of Harry's burgeoning feelings for Cho in the last two books, but even there, not much beyond the physical attraction and some rather awkward small talk. Even Percy and Penelope and Bill and Fleur and handled mostly outside the text, although I loved the final scene with Fleur and the Weasleys. Lynda From darqali at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 19:07:49 2005 From: darqali at yahoo.com (darqali) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:07:49 -0000 Subject: Hermonie & Data Base/age of HBP's text/Time Line for Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135800 Am very behind in reading, sorry if this has been addressed: Hermione cannot create a computer data base for Hogwarts! In case you have not noticed, Hogwarts does not use computers. In fact, the wizarding world does not use *electricity*, [note Mr Weazley's fascination with the Dursley's 'eclectic' fire {with a *plug*!}] :-) Rather hard to use computers with no source to power them. ***** Age of the HBP's Potions Text book: There is no reason to assume the wizarding world would need to change anything so basic as a potions' textbook in anything like so short a time as 50 years {or even *much* longer}; many potions, and their antidotes would surely be *hundreds* if not *thousands* of years old. It seems clear that Snape used his mother's old Potions text a generation after she attended school. Certainly, Snape himself may have selected a different text for his own advanced Potions class than Sluggy did, but there is no reason to assume that would be necessary. Many of the magical references throughout the HP series are truly *ancient*. ***** Time line for Snape/Prophecy: I tried to bring this up before but found no response; another post did refer to the obvious time issue, yet I have not seen it discussed: We know Snape was a Death Eater and V follower. Snape was *sent to Hogwarts* by V to be a spy. Snape was *applying for* a job when he overheard {a part of} the Prophecy, which we know he repeated to V. i.e., Snape was applying for a job *when he was a DE and employed by V*. The Prophecy was made *before Harry {and Neville} were born*; the Potters were killed when Harry was about a year old .... there is *over a year* between the Prophecy, and V's attack on the Potters'. So, re: Snape Was he a DE when Dumbledore hired him? Or was he hired *after* he supposedly repented? How could the reason Snape repented be the Potter's death, as a result of his reporting the Prophecy to V, when he supposedly repented his DE status *before LV fell*? Was Snape a real V spy in his first year of teaching at Hogwarts? Did he remain {as he told Cissy and Bellartix} because he 'thought LV finished' and become a spy again just as soon as LV returned? Was he *ever* a Double Agent? Something about the early time-line does not seem clear to me; Snape was *not* a teacher when he overheard and reported the Prophecy to LV; he *was* an active DE at that time, and he was *sent* to become a spy. What was he doing in that year + between the Prophecy and the death of the Potters? Darqali. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 19:32:14 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:32:14 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135801 > > Jen Reese: So far Riddle's hiding places have been meaningful to > his history: the Gaunt House, the cave where he terrorized the > children, possibly the cup at Hogwarts. hg: > I disagree that the cup will be found at Hogwarts, and I have > doubts that it was ever used as one. If it is indeed a Horcrux, > he would have had to commit another murder to turn it into one, > possibly Dorcas Meadowes' murder, which he committed close to the > end of his fall. Jen: Hi hg! Glad to see you posting. About the cup, the one I was referring to was the sevices to the school award, not the Hufflepuff cup, is that what you're saying, too? I re-read your link and think we're referring to the same thing. (Although I do have some reservations the award is a Horcrux, see below). hg: > The three Riddles he killed made three Horcruxes, and I find > it unlikely that he killed three people and made only two > Horcruxes, saving one murder to use on something "really > special." Jen: I'm torn on this one. If Tom truly did make his Horcruxes after 'significant' deaths, I'm wondering whether he would consider his grandparents significant? They always seemed like an afterthought. I doubt he would have considered them important enough to come back later and murder, if they'd happened to be out the night Riddle Sr. got AK'd. I agree the ring was definitely made into a Horcrux following his father's murder, some time shortly after that party at Slughorns when Tom has the ring on and asks about making Horcruxes. It makes sense he would use the ring, an artifact of his Slytherin heritage, after the death of the last Riddle, the lineage he completely rejects. But I'm still wondering about the diary. I do think Myrtle's death, although indirect and unplanned, would have been significant to Riddle. She's killed by the basilisk he's controlling with Parseltoungue, so I do think it was a murder, even if unintended. So that would mean he created the diary and the ring while at Hogwarts, but not the award. Much as I like the idea he used the award, I tend to believe Dumbledore's words that Tom's psychological make-up was such that he was obsessed with using items from the four founders, esp. after stealing the ring and cup from Hepzibah. If that's true, it follows that Riddle's request for a job at Hogwarts was a ruse to steal either the sword or a Ravenclaw artifact. But the part I can't discount about the services award is the psychological component at work *there*. It was another stolen item in a sense, because he didn't earn it. Argh! It's hard to decide. hg: > Furthermore, Voldemort murdered Hepzibah Smith a long time after > he graduated; in order for Harry to find a cup Horcrux at > Hogwarts, Riddle would have had to make the cup Horcrux and the > locket Horcrux at the time of Smith's murder (having saved out a > Riddle murder) and slipped the cup Horcrux into the school the > night of his interview with Dumbledore. It seems a stretch. Jen: Actually, the Borgin & Burkes job was right after Hogwarts, after he was rejected for the teaching position. I'm guessing he worked there from ages 18 or 19 until his early 20's, when the Hepzibah murder took place. It's more likely he used the Hufflepuff cup for the Hepzibah Horcrux than the locket. She was distantly descended from Helga Hufflepuff and he probably saw her as a rather silly woman, unworthy of the prized Slytherin locket once worn by his mother. Now THAT Horcrux would be made after a very, very significant murder that we haven't heard of yet or havne't pinned down. But as to where he hid the Hufflepuff cup, I have no idea at the moment. > I'm definitely stumped on places they'd be. > hg. Jen: Me too!! From muellem at bc.edu Sun Jul 31 19:39:03 2005 From: muellem at bc.edu (colebiancardi) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:39:03 -0000 Subject: Did Snape know about the Horcruxes? (was Re: Snape/Regulus, post 135111) In-Reply-To: <140.4916784b.301e7966@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > > hg wrote: > > Okay, here's a what-if: what if it was Snape who was with him, they > left together, Snape turned him in, thereby securing a position close > to Voldemort, and simultaneously Snape told Dumbledore about the > Horcrux, thereby securing a position close to Dumbledore? If that > were the case, what clues would lead us to that conclusion? I could > imagine Snape suspecting or even knowing about one Horcrux. None of > this is anything I can back up with textual evidence, so it makes me > uncomfortable. > > Your turn! > hg. > > > > Actually, one piece of supporting evidence for Snape knowing about > the Horcruxes is his quick action in saving Dumbledore from the > effects (or at least most of them) from the ring horcrux. I mentioned > it before, but could Snape have cured Dumbledore if he didn't > know what he was working against? Especially when it was such > a bad curse, one that left Dumbledore with that blackened hand, > and that necessitated Snape working quickly to save him? It's > possible, but it seems more probable that Dumbledore told > Snape what he'd done, especially since Snape's no dummy and > certainly could have drawn his own reasonable conclusions. > > I don't know if your theory is right, and Snape told Dumbledore > about the horcruxes long ago (though I like it), or if Dumbledore > told Snape when Snape saved him from the ring horcrux, but it > seems likely either way that Snape knew about horcruxes, and > perhaps specifically knew Voldemort was making them. > > Julie > > good catch, Julie! I think that Snape knew about horcruxes because he was (and is) so much into the Dark Arts. According to Slughorn, DD banned that subject, but I am sure there are other ways to learn about - outside of Hogwarts or Slughorn himself - the man is a leaky sieve when it comes to information :) Even a book at Hogwarts mentions that Horcruxes "wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction". So, for someone WHO really wanted to know, it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to see Snape hunting down this information. I don't if Snape knew about Voldemort's multiple Horcruxes or not, but you are correct - since Snape helped DD after the ring Horcrux fiasco, I am sure Snape knew more about Voldy's horcruxes than we are led to believe. I think Harry is being a bit of a prat, not confiding in McGonagall - about the Horcruxes & all. SHE is a member of the OotP, afterall. colebiancardi From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Jul 31 19:44:53 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:44:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Ginny VS Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tamaraburuma" wrote: > The fact that the break-up was > very mature (they both understood why it had to be done, even though > they didn't like it) only fits in with this picture. > Tamara Hickengruendler: I promise that I won't write much more about this topic, since I'm starting to repeat myself. However, I want to comment on this special point once more. I have seen this comment a few times in the last post, how mature it was from Harry and Ginny, to realize that it had to be done for Ginny's safety. And I don't really see it. My problem is: Is Ginny really safer now? I think she is not. She is a member of a "blood traitor family", she already fought the Death Eaters twice and, girlfriend or not, she is a member of Harry's favourite family and Voldemort knows this. According to Mrs Weasley's clock, Ginny already was in mortal peril at the beginning of the year, and this surely hasn't changed. She is still a not unlikely target for the Death Eaters. And Voldemort knows that Harry cares enough for her to risk his life for her, even if she is not his girlfriend. Tom used her to get Harry in the Chamber of Secrets long before Harry even thought about dating Ginny. Therefore the argument that the break-up had to be done, and that Harry and Ginny behaved really maturely doesn't convince me at all, since I see no reason for them to split. I mean, did it help Amelia Bones or Florean Fortescue that they were not close to Harry? Hickengruendler From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 20:18:13 2005 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:18:13 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing? Two Places to Hide Horcruxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135804 I knew you'd bite, Jen! > Jen: Hi hg! Glad to see you posting. About the cup, the one I was > referring to was the sevices to the school award, not the Hufflepuff > cup, is that what you're saying, too? I re-read your link and think > we're referring to the same thing. (Although I do have some > reservations the award is a Horcrux, see below). hg: Oh, yes, we werer referring to the same thing, then. But the special services award is a plaque. > Jen: If Tom truly did make his Horcruxes > after 'significant' deaths, I'm wondering whether he would consider > his grandparents significant? They always seemed like an > afterthought. I doubt he would have considered them important enough > to come back later and murder, if they'd happened to be out the > night Riddle Sr. got AK'd... But I'm still wondering about the diary. I do think Myrtle's death, > although indirect and unplanned, would have been significant to > Riddle. She's killed by the basilisk he's controlling with > Parseltoungue, so I do think it was a murder, even if unintended. > > So that would mean he created the diary and the ring while at > Hogwarts, but not the award. hg: I would think he'd consider the murder of the three Riddles significant in that he completely eradicated the Riddle family. As tempting as it is to consider Myrtle's death one that he can use to make a horcrux, I'm having difficulty embracing it. On the one hand, it was deliberate that he opened the chamber, deliberate that he wanted to kill people, even, with the basilisk. Well, he did instruct it to kill her, didn't he? Okay, now I'm torn. What I liked so much about the award was the theft of honor attached to it, the same as he stole back his lineage with the ring and his mother's honor with the locket, and he stole something belonging to Hogwarts (cup) from a greedy, vain slob. Stealing something that he would feel he has a right to or deserves. I really like what you said here: Jen: If that's true, it follows > that Riddle's request for a job at Hogwarts was a ruse to steal > either the sword or a Ravenclaw artifact. hg: I think a major part of the puzzle will be determining why he wants to get back into Hogwarts. I've always been a bit shaky on him wanting to get back in to take something back: as if he's got a magpie nest somewhere and wants to collect his things? No, Dumbledore found his nest and made him give them back when they were in a nest, so he'd never do that again. > > hg: > > Furthermore, Voldemort murdered Hepzibah Smith a long time after > > he graduated; in order for Harry to find a cup Horcrux at > > Hogwarts, Riddle would have had to make the cup Horcrux and the > > locket Horcrux at the time of Smith's murder (having saved out a > > Riddle murder) and slipped the cup Horcrux into the school the > > night of his interview with Dumbledore. It seems a stretch. > > Jen: Actually, the Borgin & Burkes job was right after Hogwarts, > after he was rejected for the teaching position. I'm guessing he > worked there from ages 18 or 19 until his early 20's, when the > Hepzibah murder took place. hg: Smith's murder was a long enough time out of Hogwarts that he wouldn't be trying to put a cup horcrux back in there, is what I meant. I got the impression that he worked for B&B for about 5 years, which would have him disappearing for about 20 years. That part of the timeline has me confused, because Dumbledore says that Riddle hasn't been seen for about 10 years when he shows up at the headmaster's office, and Dumbledore doesn't become headmaster until 1970. Seems like there's a missing 10 years somewhere. Jen: > It's more likely he used the Hufflepuff cup for the Hepzibah Horcrux > than the locket. She was distantly descended from Helga Hufflepuff > and he probably saw her as a rather silly woman, unworthy of the > prized Slytherin locket once worn by his mother. Now THAT Horcrux > would be made after a very, very significant murder that we haven't > heard of yet or havne't pinned down. But as to where he hid the > Hufflepuff cup, I have no idea at the moment. hg: Excellent, valid point. Maybe he thought: "Ring, Diary, Locket: grandparents (I disassociate myself with your heritage); Diary (I have the power to kill people right here at my own school and still be a beloved student); Locket (that's for you, Tom senior, for running out on my mother)." Then Smith's murder would be for the cup, and maybe there was a Griffindor murder and a Ravenclaw murder for two other items?... ehhh... So I thought I had at least part of this puzzle worked out -- I was onto other theories, now. Back to the drawing board a bit on Tom. hg. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 20:18:47 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:18:47 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Character Development In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050731084747.018f9410@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa Hess wrote: > > >Snapesangel: > >1. Am I the only one to be slightly uncomfortable with JKR's > >treatment of Lupin in HBP? I find him quite weak and self-pitying in this book, but rather than feel sorry for my second favourtie character, I find it irritating and a diminution of his character. I also don't know why he was paired with Tonks. > Lissa: > > I was sort of disappointed (and really hated the Tonks thing, because he sure didn't seem into it and Tonks's behavior- especially in the hospital- really bugged me), but then I thought about it. > (Snip) > Given how little we see of Lupin, I can at least understand why he's so down. Although I do agree I miss the quiet strength, and I really hope we see it again in Book 7! > Tonks here: Well I loved the Tonks and Lupin thing. It is the only thing that pulled me out of my depression over DD!!! Lupin is a sensitive man and I like that about him. Yes he has a quite strength and we will see that again, but that is not all there is to him. He is a caring man. I loved that part in book 5 when he comforts Molly. I fell in love with him then. In book 6 I really like the scene where Arthur talks to Lupin about Tonks. Lupin deserves some happiness in his life after all he has been through and Tonks is the logical woman for him. I finally got my man!! Both Lupin and Tonks will be out of there dark mood in the next book because they have each other now. As others have said I think that book 6 especially shows us the many faces of Love. This will be important for the final book since it is Harry's love that will save the WW and MW. Tonks_op Oooo. I feel my hair turning purple already. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 31 20:24:16 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:24:16 -0000 Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffindor's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Morgan Adams > wrote: > [Sorting hat] > > > It has been mentioned. I believe that the sword is of more importance. > > I actually think that the Sorting Hat is the more likely candidate. > All Voldemort needed was a few minutes alone with it. We have seen > Harry waiting alone for DD in his office, so it's conceivable that > Voldemort in his time had done so as well (with the previous > headmaster who did not suspect him). We have it on good authority that Satan cannot cast out Satan - how, then, can Horcrux cast out Horcrux? In Cos, the Phoenix-delivered Hat plays a pivotal role in providing Harry with the weapon he needs to destroy Tom Riddle's basilisk, as well as the diary, i.e. (as we know at long last), one-seventh of Voldemort's soul. I'll sooner believe that Snape killed DD for benevolent reasons than I'll believe that the Hat - or the sword - is tainted. It's much more likely - as JKR has hinted - that Godric's Hollow has some actual link to GG, and that Harry may discover some Godric- linked Horcrux when he visits his parents' gravesite. - CMC From rt11guru at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 20:19:00 2005 From: rt11guru at yahoo.com (Ken Fruit) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Did Snape know about the Horcruxes? (was Re: Snape/Regulus, post 135111) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050731201900.83742.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135807 colebiancardi wrote: According to Slughorn, DD banned that subject, but I am sure there are other ways to learn about - outside of Hogwarts or Slughorn himself - the man is a leaky sieve... Even a book at Hogwarts mentions that Horcruxes "wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction". So, for someone WHO really wanted to know, it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to see Snape hunting down this information. Guru says: Imagine that, a school banning books on a topic they think is to wicked for impressionable young minds! As for Snape, I'm guessing that Hogwarts is not the only place which has a research library for wizards. I can think of two other schools (one with a much darker reputation than Hogwarts) that would have them. I'm also guessing the the MoM has the wizards equivalent of the Library of Congress. A far as a Gryffindor horcrux goe, JKR has hinted at a connection in more than name between Godric Hollow and old GG. Could James and Lily have been living in his house? If so, could it (or something in it) be the horcrux. Guru. From kjones at telus.net Sun Jul 31 20:39:52 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:39:52 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore-Puppetmaster Message-ID: <42ED3718.1080906@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 135808 I think that we tend to under-estimate Dumbledore in trying to explain his death and activities. He is as single-minded in his endeavors as Voldemort is in his. 1. Dumbledore has been watching Voldemort since before he went to Hogwarts, somewhere around 55 years. He has amassed a great deal of knowledge about him. He has kept Snape in a position to return to Voldemort if required for fifteen years. He has maintained contact with all of the Order of Phoenix members. He has twice refused to become Minister of Magic because he needed to remain at Hogwarts, both to keep an eye on Harry and because Voldemort finds it important. He has invested over a third of his life in watching or fighting Voldemort. 2. Dumbledore has no hesitation in asking or demanding sacrifice from people. The Flamels were required to destroy the stone, thereby ending their lives, in the effort to prevent Voldemort from getting his hands on it. Hagrid was sent to the Giants, a very dangerous mission, Lupin was sent to the Werewolves, also a very dangerous mission and painful due to the fact that he was in direct opposition to the werewolf that bit him. Snape was sent back to Voldemort, late, knowing that Voldemort would likely torture him and could well have killed him before he got a chance to get his story across. He left Harry at the Dursleys', in a hostile environment as the lesser of two evils, but did nothing to prevent them from abusing Harry, even after he knew what was going on. I don't believe that Dumbledore would hesitate for a moment in sacrificing his own life to further the cause against Voldemort, which he did in the acquisition of ring horcrux and in what he thought was the locket horcrux. He would not hesitate to demand that Snape kill him if necessary, and not out of kindness to Malfoy. It would serve no purpose for Malfoy to be allowed to kill him. He has completely thrown Snape to the wolves. Even if he manages to survive to see Voldemort defeated, he has no hope of a life. He will be the wizard who killed Dumbledore. He has set a sixteen year old boy, knowing that he might also have to die to fulfil the prophesy, against the other most powerful wizard of the age, half prepared, with vague instructions, little effective assistance, and yet he says that he loves Harry. I have a little trouble with that. 3. Considering the fact that Dumbledore was well aware that no DADA teacher had ever lasted longer than a year, he must have had some idea that Voldemort had cast that hex for a reason. Obviously it was so that he could insert his supporters into that spot. Dumbledore would have been suspicious of any teacher accepting that position. Snape must have been aware of it as well as he also kept a close watch on the DADA instructors. As it became clear that Voldemort was returning, Dumbledore tried filling the position with his own people, Lupin and Moody. There must have been some suspicion of Moody because Dumbledore said that he hadn't been sure until Moody took Harry out of his sight. Umbridge, like Lockhart,wasn't a real problem. It allowed him to delay using one of his own people for a year and he knew Umbridge would be gone by the end of the year. Once his hand was damaged, and he was possibly dying, it became time to put Snape in the position. They both would have known that the hand-writing was on the wall. There is no way that Snape would be stupid enough to apply for the DADA position every year for fourteen years knowing that there was a hex on the job. He applied because Voldemort had told him to do so, they needed to maintain the fiction that Snape was still doing what Voldemort told him to do, and Dumbledore refused to accept the applications so as to keep Snape in his position as long as possible. 4. It is interesting to note that Snape uses Dumbledore's Pensieve and not one of his own. This could be for a couple of reasons. He could not be seen constantly going to Dumbledore every time he had been to a Deatheater gathering. It would allow for complete memories to be viewed by Dumbledore rather than information passed on second hand and allow for things to be missed. It would also allow Snape to deposit any thoughts or memories that could not be seen by Voldemort if he chose to go through Snape's mind. No matter how skilled an Occlumens Snape was, there was always the chance that he might not be able to protect himself. Much better to get rid of anything before-hand. This would also explain why Dumbledore trusts Snape, if he has had access to Snape's memories all this time. One wonders what Dumbledore does with his own thoughts and memories while Snape has his Pensieve. KJ From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 20:41:18 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:41:18 -0000 Subject: CIAO DOLCE VITA (Longish) In-Reply-To: <20050731023429.62505.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Juli wrote: > > ...edited... > There's this paragraph I found very interesting: "Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body and the table upon which he lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished" (Ch 30 P 645). > > I remember I had read months ago something about how a phoenix is a man (a person) who after he's died, becomes a phoenix. ... he's my theory Dumbledore is not dead, he's merely changed, he's become a phoenix. > bboyminn: I'm sorry, I just can't buy Dumbledore transformed into a Phoenix. I can maybe believe that his death was a fake; Snape's killing curse, Dumbledore falling from the tower ramparts, the flash of Phoenix in the funeral pyre. That he is still alive and in hiding; working far behind the scene. But for him to have literally changed into a living Phoenix is just a little TOO magical for me. So, from my limited perspective, Dumbledore is either alive or dead, but not transformed. As far as Dumbledore communicating with Harry and the Order, we have Dumbledore's portrait, his papers and other personal affects, and the Pensieve. I think that's all we get. I do however, and have been since the beginning, hope that Fawkes joins Harry and becomes his pet and protector. That would be a tremendous resource to Harry and I think a great comfort. Keep in mind that I'm not saying your are wrong, only that I don't believe you. > Juli: > > So I think this means Dumbledore begged Snape to kill him, and why? > First, to keep Draco from doing it himself, Second, Dumbledore knew > he was about to die anyway, so better to do it quick and painlessly. > Also to maintain Snape's cover. > bboyminn: I'm glad you said killed rather than murdered. Yes, I think Snape killed Dumbledore, but I think it was indeed because he saw that Dumbledore was already near dead and in the process of dying. Snape simply seized the opportunity to make Dumbledore's death work for him, and put him (Snape) in the strongest possible position to EVENTUALLY bring down Voldemort. It really doesn't need to be any more complicted than that; no 'kill me' Unbreakable Oaths, or any other such nonsense. Certainly, Dumdledore may have foreseen his own death coming. He may have even been slowly dying from the 'dead hand' curse. He and Snape may have discussed the possibilities. But in the end, Snape simply saw a dying Dumbledore and made the stituation work to his advantage. So, relative to Dumbledore's death, Snape is hardly innocent, he may even be guilty of manslaughter, but I don't think, in the end, anyone will find him guilty of murder. And hopefully, in the end, they will understand why he did what he did and forgive him. > Juli continues: > > I think Draco Malfoy will change sides. He'll return to Voldemort, > he'll be threaten, tortured, and who knows what else, he'll remember > Dumbledore and his goodness, how up to the last moment he was trying > to save him. He will go to Harry, Ron, and Hermione and offer his > help, ...edited... > > It all can be summarized in: > > CIAO DOLCE VITA : Contrary to the Impressions he isn't gOne. > Dumbledore Only sLeeps. Cause Everyone loVes hIm, he'll Turn into > A phoenix. > > > Juli Bboyminn: I think JKR made it clear the Draco talks a good game, but he really doesn't have the stomach for merciless killing and torture. Further, although not his initial motivation, Draco's on-going motivation seems to be to keep Voldemort from killing him. All thought of the original task has been forgotten, now he only wants to succeed because it means he continues to live. Consequently, I do believe that Draco will come around. BUT, and that is a very big 'but', I don't think Draco and Harry will instantly become pals. Too many people take an 'all or nothing' approach to Draco being redeemed; he is either the spawn of satan, or he is Harry's best buddy (too much Harry/Draco Slash). I think Draco will very much continue in a Snape-like role; good but definitely not nice. However, while Draco and Harry may tolerate working together, they will never like each other; too much water under the bridge for that. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 20:44:15 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:44:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Character Development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > I loved that part in book 5 when he comforts Molly. I fell in love > > with him then. In book 6 I really > like the scene where Arthur talks to Lupin about Tonks. Lupin > deserves some happiness in his life after all he has been through > and Tonks is the logical woman for him. A question (not meant to sound combatative, lol) .Why is Tonks perfect for Remus? I was genuinely surprised by the pairing because I hadn't seen any reason why they would be perfect for each other... Come on and present the argument for the defence - convert me :) Snapesangel x From literature_Caro at web.de Sun Jul 31 21:12:37 2005 From: literature_Caro at web.de (literature_Caro) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:12:37 +0200 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1283865370.20050731231237@web.de> No: HPFGUIDX 135811 Juli17 > In this first exchange, Snape doesn't seem that upset, and > there's no expression of rage or pain. He takes no action against > Harry but simply insults James, which of course further angers > Harry. Caro: I would like to suggest that Snape there still can control himself far enough "just" to insult James Potter and therefore tries to hurt Harry. Harry has always shown some weakness on that point. Juli17: > Then Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the > face, and is slammed back against the ground. (And is the first, and > only, time Snape physically takes action against Harry) Caro: What about Buckbeak? He there arrives to defend Harry. Couldn't it be that Harry was stroked by his wings or tail? I don't think that Snape really had the time to curse Harry and there was no mentioning of him of Buckbeak being affected in any way. But apart from these little additions I do agree with you. Caro From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Sun Jul 31 21:30:47 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (Barb Roberts) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:30:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spinner's End...and Spiders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135812 Cindy wrote: > Snape also gave Bellatrix "spin" after "spin" of justification for his > behavior since Voldemort's fall while making her feel disloyal and > inept. I think this chapter is named Spinner's End because that's > exactly what Snape did. Like a spider surrounding his victims with > web, Master Spinner Snape convinced his DE critics (including > Voldemort)with his words and deeds in this chapter. Now, the question > is, where does his spinning end????? Snape isn't the only one who is spinning in the HBP--a few others are spinning as well. Throughout most of the HBP, we find spiders. When Harry meets Slughorn for the first time Harry "had a sudden and vivid mental image of a great swollen spider spinning a web around it... Just a little later, as Harry and Dumbledore were having a chat in the Weasley's broom shed, Dumbledore tells Harry that " I take my hat off to you--or I would, if I were not afraid of showering you in spiders." Later we have Aragog's funeral with Hagrid and Slughorn. So that's at least three "spider" people--Slughorn, DD and Hagrid. Interestingly, It's at the funeral of the giant spider that Harry acquires from Slughorn the critical information about the number of horcruxes. Necessary information if LV is to be destroyed. Harry too is associated with spiders in previous books. Harry's first bedroom is located in the cupboard under the stairs and is so full of spiders that Harry now has no fear now of them. Spiders, spinning and webs are mentioned too many times to not mean something, including a couple of chapter titles in the HBP. To me, the issue is larger than just Snape who is only one of several spinners in the HBP. I have the following theory, not completely fleshed out, but I'll throw it out to just see what someone else thinks. A spider is predator who remains concealed until his victims are trapped in the spider's web. Much the plot in the HBP is about concealment and deception, and it's obvious that in the HBP it's the good guys who are practicing "deception" too. It may ultimately be the means of how LV is destroyed. An example of using concealment for a good cause is when DD tells Malfoy that "he (LV) cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you come completely than you can possibly imagine." I'm not sure how DD was going to accomplish this, but he said it could be done. In Harry's case, his Invisibility Cloak is his method of concealment. This cloak is mentioned a few times too and becomes very important in the plot. In the beginning of the book it is one of the last things that Harry packs in his trunk. Later, Dumbledore tells Harry that "Firstly, I wish you keep your Invisibility Cloak with you at all times from this moment onwards. Even within Hogwarts itself." Arriving to Hogwarts, Harry gets stuck hidden beneath it until he is rescued by Tonks. And of course, during Dumbledore's death scene, Harry is again trapped under it. Deception may become an issue for important because it critical that LV not become aware that others know his secret and are seeking to destroy him. Barbara Roberts (Ivogun) who feels a lttile "spun" out her [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 21:36:22 2005 From: MorganAnnAdams at yahoo.com (Morgan Adams) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Only Item of Godric Gryffindor's In-Reply-To: <1122841097.3118.7275.m26@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050731213622.20857.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135813 slgazit wrote: "I actually think that the Sorting Hat is the more likely candidate. All Voldemort needed was a few minutes alone with it." Morgan here: We don't know the process of creating a horcrux, so we don't know if a few minutes alone would have been enough. I am of the theory that the horcrux has to be created during the murder - that LV can't just go around throwing parts of his soul into whatever he wants. In that case he would need considerable planning to use the Sorting Hat, Gryffindor's sword, or any other object not in his possession as a horcrux. If an accidental horcrux had been created when Harry was attacked as a baby it could be any item (or person) at the scene. --Morgan --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Jul 31 21:48:33 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:48:33 -0000 Subject: Omniscient Dumbledore /Snape's guilt/ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135814 > KathyK: > > But does the critical information flow both ways? I don't think so. houyhnhnm: I don't either, come to think of it. Dumbledore plays it pretty close to the vest. Far from being too trusting, it could be argued that he doesn't trust people enough, Harry for instance. There is an awful lot we don't know about the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape. Not only do we not know the real reason Dumbledore trusts Snape ('cause I just can't buy the idea that the greatest wizard in the world trusts people because he wants to believe the best of them), but we know next to nothing about their relationship when Snape was a student. We know that Snape made a promise not to reveal Lupin's secret (and apparently kept it). We don't know if Dumbledore was concerned about Snape's tendencies toward the dark side and made any attempt to intervene. I imagine there will be a lot more about that in book 7. From samwisep at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 21:55:44 2005 From: samwisep at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:55:44 -0000 Subject: 20-30 in Azkaban for murder Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135815 Hi Potterphiles! Can you truly imagine Harry with his temper and Ginny with her bad temper actually getting together? I think the reason why there won't be an 8th book, is because it would find either Harry or Ginny in Azkban doing time for murder! :) But seriously, I just can't get behind them being together, and I agree with the person(sorry, I delete the emails as I go along so I don't know your name) that wrote, when did Ginny get so popular and good looking? Is Harry so shallow that he can't look beneath a plain exterior(especially when he has known the girl since he was 12) and fall in love? Does every girl he get with have to be a cheerleader type? It would have shown a lot more depth of character if she would have stayed plain and he would have loved her for what was INSIDE. just my HO snapeo'phile From troelsfo at yahoo.dk Sun Jul 31 22:21:18 2005 From: troelsfo at yahoo.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:21:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA (long!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050731230233.020d5d50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 135816 At 23:02 29-07-05 +0000, you wrote: >smilingator: > >I was so excited to see a post that wasn't about HBP... turned out to >be in reference to a post I made about 3 weeks ago on time traveling >in POA (see post #132073) > > >davenclaw: > > If time can't be changed, then why would Dumbledore need to send the > > kids back in time at all? Everything had already worked itself out, > > right? > >Ahhh, the beauty of DD's statement and Hermione's understanding of >"more time". Harry and Hermione did have a choice as to whether or not >they should go back in time. Since H/Hr did go back in time, Buckbeak >and Sirius were saved. The reason that everything worked itself out >was BECAUSE the two went back in time, not IN SPITE of the fact that >they went back in time. Had H/Hr not gone back, Buckbeak would be dead >and probably more people than Sirius would have been *kissed* by the >dementors. Precisely! That their choice, at the objective time that they made it, was already known (before they were, at that same moment, racing from the top of the tower to reach the hospital in time), is irrelevant to that issue. Only by choosing to go back in time could Harry and Hermione ensure that the past that they had just lived through happened as it did. The outcome of their choice had already been known for three hours when they went back (albeit not to themselves) -- but seriously: isn't the outcome of Harry's choice of whether to fight Voldemort or not just as certain before its time? Or if you like, isn't the outcome of my choice to walk, unaided, on the ceiling just as determined by the basic forces that govern our universe? > > This theory requires that the impact of having gone back in > > time is seen before the point in time at which the time travelers > > actually go back in time. It means that you would make the decision > > to go back in time with the understanding that the impact of this > > decision had already been experienced, but that the traveling itself > > was required in order to fulfill what had already happened. Precisely! When you do go back to yesterday at noon, you will not come back to a 'new' yesterday, but rathe at the same yesterday as you lived through yesterday. That means that when we (the whole world -- objective time) reached yesterday at noon, there was suddenly two of you walking about and doing things. The one that appeared at noon (whom I shall call you*) may even be tailing the younger one (you-), but unless you actually (when preparing to travel back) recall seeing yourself, it will be impossible for you* to be seen by you- -- if it didn't happen for you-, then it never did happen. That, at least, is the basis of Igor Novikov's theory of the Self- Consistent Histories. We cannot, obviously, know if that the model Rowling uses for Potterverse (let's face it -- she's unlikely to have been studying physical journals to learn about these things ), and that model is, indeed, inconsistent with Hermione's statement implying that McGonagall told her of wizards who had killed their /past/ selves (a variant of the Grandfather Paradox: if the wizard kills his past self, then he doesn't live on to travel back, in which case he cannot kill his past self, so that he actually can travel back and kill . . .) Paradoxes are messy ;-) >As I explained in my previous post, there are a number of time >travelling theories out there, but most stem from two main beliefs... >that time can be changed and in doing so, alternate universes are >created OR that time can not be changed. My interpretation of the >canon is that JKR is operating under Theory 2. I mean, she explains >observations from the first perspective while we are experiencing the >second perspective. If she was not operating under this theory, then >what would be her point in discussing things, such as the footsteps in >the corridor, the falling of the axe when we thought Buckbeak was >killed, or Harry saving himself with the patronus? The important >thing: NOTHING CHANGED during the dual telling of the events but our >perspective of them. I'm not sure what canon evidence you have for >believing that there was some other sequence of events that was >altered, but I'd love to hear about it :) Well . . . The change in the sequence that the characters emerge from the Whomping Willow when going back to the castle is generally held to be an error (I've never really seen anyone seriously wishing to claim otherwise), and it seems to me quite plain that Rowling intends us to understand that she is describing the exact same events from two different viewpoints (in particular when the older Harry and Hermione observe the events behind Hagrid's hut: And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. /this time/ -- so this is the same howling they heard earlier, but when they hear it again, when they hear it 'this time', they are able of actually understanding what is going on instead of misinterpreting. There appears to be no serious opposition to the interpretation that nothing did change, and that we saw the exact same events and exact same period of time from two different viewpoints, which just incidentally happens to be both those of Harry Potter . . . The main challenge to the idea that time in Potterverse works as in Novikov's Self-consistent Histories is still Hermione's paraphrasing of McGonagall's information. In order to allow for that statement to express factual truth in Potterverse, and yet still prevent that messy possibility of paradoxes crushing the very logical firmament of this fictional universe, we have to turn to the Alternative Universes theory. It isn't difficult to find good arguments why Hermione's statement /might/ be untrue, but it is far more difficult to find any arguments of why it /must/ be so. Personally I'd be more happy accepting her statement as a statement of fact (at least for the time being -- a canonical statement that the past cannot be changed would be deeply appreciated . . . pleeease Jo? ) I cannot, however, (it is the physicist within me) accept a universe where paradoxes are allowed (it's a failing, I know, and I can only hope -- pray for, really -- that Rowling recognises the literary problems inherent in allowing a universe that can The theory of Alternative Universes does appear strangely attractive to me -- in particular if we can allow certain special properties to hold true in such a universe: 1) The universe seeks to avoid creation of alternative histories (branchings of time). 2) The universe will seek to repair any branchings, bringing the time-lines back together. ('seek' in the above should be understood in the same way as when we say that a quantum-mechanical system 'seeks' a state with a lower energy). A universe as that would be perfectly suited to explain everything in PoA -- we can even, if we should desire to do so, explain the change in the order of emerging from the Whomping Willow: something (obviously something we don't see) created a small difference, and at this point we have a little branching, but obviously the two histories are quickly brought back together as Peter escapes and Lupin changes . . . We can also explain Hermione's statement (obviously killing your past self creates a new history), and we can also explain why nothing (more) was changed -- the universe acted to prevent that. The real test, however, of any such model is literary. How would it work, and would that be consistent with the known evidence? For a particularly playful author the model offers a lot of possibility to play around with minor changes of events -- bringing all the branches together again etc. For more cautious authors, the model offers an explanation and 'excuse' (if you will) of why there is only one time line, but at the same time it allows the author to leave a real threat of terrible temporal consequences hanging over the heads of their characters if they embark on journeys backwards in time. Using the creation of alternative histories to resolve major plot points would, however, be quite problematic. Suppose that Harry were to go back in time to change certain events as they took place. Then his original history would be split off and he would end up in the new history with no possibility of getting back (you can't just pick which universe you want to be in). That would, unfortunately leave the original history without a Harry Potter. All in all I think this modified use of the theory of Alternative Universes offer the explanation that satisfies me best -- the one that I would prefer to see in effect for Potterverse. In that lies, obviously, the recognition that I have no clue whatsoever, as to what Rowling will prefer -- or would prefer if she had thought it out at all (in all honesty I don't think there actually is a well- defined model for time in Potterverse because I don't think Rowling will have considered that -- math and physics: her mind doesn't work that way). /Troels Forchhammer From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Jul 31 22:34:30 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:34:30 -0000 Subject: Snape can't stand being called a coward--or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135817 Julie: "Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him [James], you coward--" "DON'T--" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the house behind them-- "CALL ME COWARD!" houyhnhnm says: The significance of Harry's saying "like you killed *him*" didn't strike me until I read your post. It is so obvious from context that Harry means "like you killed my father". I too was wondering why Snape didn't react the first time Harry called him a coward, but went ballistic (I *do* think he attacked Harry) the second time. It is very plausible to me that Snape heard "like you killed him--Dumbledore". I think there is also some kind of significance to the wording--"Don't call me coward", not "Don't call me *a* coward". vmonte: "The Authoritarian Personality wants to fit into a chain of command and to be told what to do (submissive to a superior), and by the same token, will countenance no flak when giving orders to those in the hierarchy below. At the same time s/he is aggressive towards others, especially those considered to be lesser in some way (e.g. of a different faith or ethnicity, or a different species). houyhnhnm says: I agree that Snape has all the hallmarks of an authoritarian personality. It is what led him to become a Death Eater in the first place, no doubt. I don't think that precludes the possibility that he has transferred his allegiance to Dumbledore for some reason we do not yet know. I also don't think the analysis should be carried too far. These are wizards, after all, not Muggles. Their world is pretty authoritarian to begin with. Even Dumbledore, the "bleeding heart liberal" of the wizarding world demands absolute obedience. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 31 22:39:37 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:39:37 -0000 Subject: "Magic always leaves traces..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135818 Jen: > Did anyone else find Dumbledore's magical deconstructions one of > the most interesting parts of the cave scene? I'll miss his > insights into the mysteries of magic. No one else seems to > understand magical ability in quite the same way. SSSusan: YES, I'll miss his insights... and I'll miss him! Just this morning I was talking with another fan and shaking my head, not really certain I'm ready for an entire HP book without DD in it. I know I'll adjust (what choice do I have? ;-)), but just now the thought is not especially pleasant... particularly after HBP, in which DD featured so prominently and in a way which I enjoyed greatly. Jen: > It also struck me that he refers to the cave as Riddle's style, > not Voldemort's. Either Dumbledore is once again refusing to > acknowledge who Riddle has become, or he literally means Riddle > placed the locket in the cave as far back as the murder of > Hepzibah Smith. SSSusan: A very interesting catch. Given that DD *does* call him Voldemort other times while they're in the cave, I would think this may be a very important point. Does that also mean that DD could truly sense the difference between "Riddle style" and "Voldemort style," I wonder? If there is a difference, could this be bad news for Harry? For surely as Riddle matured & deepened his talents, his schemes & protections would have increased in complexity? And I thought *this* particular set-up was pretty elaborate and complex. Jen: > I think Dumbledore is saying that like any creative art, a magical > style is recognizable across time and skill levels. So even > Voldemort's advanced magic would presumably have undercurrents of > Riddle's preoccupation with darkness, death, dismemberment, etc. SSSusan: There is hope in this possibility, then, if true. The things which mattered, the things upon which he would have focused, would be similar. Patterns might be discernable. That kind of thing. But... Jen: > The big question is, did Harry learn enough in the cave to > recognize and defeat Voldemort's obstacles surrounding the > remaining Horcruxes? SSSusan: This is where I don't feel good about things at all. I'm sure Harry learned a lot from the pensieve episodes with DD. I'm sure he learned important things from DD in the cave. But HOW DID DD *DO* ALL THAT in the cave? He just... felt things... sensed things... just "knew." That is stuff one cannot teach, really, and I suspect Harry was stunned & bewildered by DD's ability to do that just as we were. And Harry's not even 17! I'm one who does believe he's a right talented wizard -- powerful, brave, intuitive, giften even -- but DD had 130+ years on him in terms of learning & experience. I'm just not sure that what Harry learned in this one school year could possibly equip him with the insight & skills to do anything like what DD did with the ring and the cave & locket. It's JKR's story, and so if she wants Harry to be able to do all this, she'll manage to do it. But it seems pretty unlikely that he *could* as things stand right now. And yet who else besides DD could help Harry in this?? Who else is so talented?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Sun Jul 31 22:40:58 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:40:58 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harrys grief In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135819 >To anyone that is thinking that it is not normal for Harry to be >wanting to talk about Sirius. Well, I have 2 teenage boys and they lost >their dad 6 years ago, and they don't want to talk about him and when I >try, they change the subject. > >Diane I think everyone grieves a bit differently. Actually, I find that Harry seems to vary in how much he wants to talk about the deaths that have been important to him. There are times when he wants to hear about his parents or Sirius and times when he doesn't and, in fact, finds it extremely distasteful. He walked out of the hospital ward when Ron and Hermione started to talk about Sirius and left Hagrid's hut, too. But he was willing to talk to Luna and to Nearly Headless Nick. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 22:49:56 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spinner's End Most Important Clues Chapter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050731224956.68303.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 135820 --- Cindy wrote: > Snape also gave Bellatrix "spin" after "spin" of justification for > his > behavior since Voldemort's fall while making her feel disloyal and > inept. I think this chapter is named Spinner's End because that's > exactly what Snape did. Like a spider surrounding his victims with > web, Master Spinner Snape convinced his DE critics (including > Voldemort)with his words and deeds in this chapter. Now, the > question is, where does his spinning end? It never ends. Not in the world of Voldemort, at any rate. When Snape opened his front door and saw Narcissa and Bellatrix standing there, he began to spin. He heard Narcissa out but do we know that he took her seriously? How does Snape know that this isnt a put-up job so that Voldemort can check on Snape's loyalty? How does he know if Narcissa is sincere? So he plays along, says as little as he can as neutrally as he can so that anyone can read into it what they want. It is noticeable that he tells the sisters nothing that isn't already public knowledge (albeit a rather limited public). And it's noticeable too that he claims that Dumbledore's hand was injured at the MoM during the battle when he knows fully well that it was injured getting the ring. And does anyone think that Voldemort wouldn't be desperate to protect his horcruxes if he knew they were in danger of being destroyed? The world of the DE's is a world where everyone is constantly lying and conniving against each other - which is probably just fine with Voldemort. DE's competing against each other for his favour are DE's not conspiring with each other against him. They're probably constantly running to him with complaints and innuendos about the others. Snape can't assume that anyone is being truthful in this world. But it's going to take more skill at persuasion than we've seen from the DE's so far to make Voldemort believe that the man who killed Dumbldore isn't totally loyal. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 23:08:03 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:08:03 -0000 Subject: Wormtail, the life debt, and Fenrir Grayback (Was: Wormtail and Werewolves) In-Reply-To: <7410386746.20050724163637@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135821 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >I personally have become > enamoured with this scenario: Greyback attacks Harry and > Wormtail kills Greyback with his silver hand. This not only > saves Harry's life and pays off the life debt, but it also > cures Lupin (and Bill)! > > I think this is one of the few things Wormtail could do to atone > (at least in Harry's POV) for his helping LV return to power, and > therefore make Harry "very glad he saved Pettigrew's life". > Carol responds: While I agree (and hope) that Wormtail will save Harry by killing Fenrir Grayback with his silver hand), I think the idea that it will cure Lupin and Bill is overly optimistic. Certainly it won't bring back the children Grayback has killed and eaten, for example the five-year-old Montgomery boy. Certainly this action will pay off the life debt and, as you say, make Harry glad that he saved Wormtail's life. I'm not at all persuaded, however, that Wormtail wants to atone for his crucial role in bringing Voldemort back to power, or for murdering Cedric, betraying the Potters, framing Sirius Black, killing twelve Muggles, and any other horrible deeds that I'm failing to remember. At best, he may be motivated by resentment that Voldemort has reduced him to serving/spying on Severus Snape. I can't imagine Wormtail surviving this climactic moment to serve either Voldemort or the Order (of which he's long since ceased to be a member), nor do I expect him to display any genuine remorse, only perhaps self-pity, as he lies dying from the wounds the werewolf inflicts on him. I don't think Wormtail is the HP analogue to Boromir. There's no nobility in him and there's a *lot* of blood on his hands. But, yes, the silver hand, the life debt, and Fenrir Grayback rather than ESE!Lupin: it all fits together nicely. I'm wondering, however, how Lupin is able to drink from a silver goblet in OoP if silver is lethal to werewolves. Maybe it's only deadly to them when the moon is full and they're fully transformed? BTW, I suppose the murder of the Montgomery boy explains why Tonks was trying to see Dumbledore when she found Harry outside the Room of Requirement and why she was so unfocused. I think she wanted to ask Dumbledore to remove Lupin from his dangerous assignment with the pack of werewolves led by Grayback. (FWIW, I think Lupin will be one of the people who dies in Book 7, but not before he helps Harry to understand the relationship between Snape's Unbreakable Vow, which Harry has told him about, and Dumbledore's death.) Carol From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 23:17:09 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:17:09 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135823 All right, this is going nowhere :-) So let's make it simple. All you people who are satisfied with the way the romance between Harry and Ginny was written, and who have found enough clues to judge that relationship positively, can you help me? Can you give me the canon bits that helped you forge your judgement, the hints that helped you make a diagnosis? Because obviously I missed them :-) I'm not even asking for a precise page number. You can just describe a scene you remember, or paraphrase a statement someone made in the book. I'll look for them myself. Thanks in advance. Del From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 23:23:07 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:23:07 -0000 Subject: Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915" wrote: > smilingator: > > I was so excited to see a post that wasn't about HBP... turned out > to be in reference to a post I made about 3 weeks ago on time > travelingin POA (see post #132073) > >davenclaw: > > If time can't be changed, then why would Dumbledore need to send > > the kids back in time at all? Everything had already worked > > itself out, right? > smilingator: > > Ahhh, the beauty of DD's statement and Hermione's understanding of > "more time". Harry and Hermione did have a choice as to whether or > not they should go back in time. Since H/Hr did go back in time, > Buckbeak and Sirius were saved. The reason that everything worked > itself out was BECAUSE the two went back in time, not IN SPITE of > the fact that they went back in time. Had H/Hr not gone back, > Buckbeak would be dead and probably more people than Sirius would > have been *kissed* by the dementors. > > ...edited... The important thing: NOTHING CHANGED during the dual > telling of the events but our perspective of them. I'm not sure > what canon evidence you have for believing that there was some > other sequence of events that was altered, but I'd love to hear > about it :) > > Just my thoughts... > > smilingator bboyminn: Oh sweet mother of Merlin, do I want to open this can of worms again? First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought out methods; there is simply no escape from that. However, let's not lose perspective regarding the nature and degree of paradox in PoA; it can be small or it can be large depending on nothing more than a person's perspective. Personally, I choose the small pain free perspective. First, let's look as what Dumbledore knows. He know that Buckbeak escaped, but he doesn't know how or why. He knows that someone who looked like Harry's father saved Harry from the Dementors, and that's about it. Remember, that at the time that Dumbledore makes his point about needing 'more time' /Sirius has NOT been saved yet/; that occurs in the future. There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Harry; somehow that worked itself out. There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Buckbeak because that also seems to have worked itself out, but there is something he thinks he might be able to do about using Buckbeak to save Sirius, which, again, has not happened yet. Dumbledore knows Buckbeak escaped, but he doesn't know how, he does however know that there is a window of opportunity to catch Buckbeak as he escapes, and use him to save Sirius. So, that is the task that he sets Harry and Hermione to do. A task that fixes something in the future. Again, I insist that Dumbledore must maintain a degree of 'plausable deniability'; he must protect himself, so he indirectly tells Hermione and Harry that they may be able to save more than one life that night. It's a hint; 'plausable deniability' all around. So, Harry and Hermione go back in time, and yes indeed they fulfill the events of that night. But, they do it by making free choices. They choose the method by which Buckbeak's services are obtained. Harry does not leave Hagrid's cabin to go to the lake to save himself; he goes to see if it is his father who saves him. So, no willfull plan or intent; just free choices. It is only at the last minute that he realizes that he saved himself, and does so. There is no way that Dumbledore could have foreseen that Harry would remove Buckbeak from where he was tied. In Dumbledore's estimation, Harry could have waited for Buckbeak to escape, and then captured him as he ran away. Of course, from our perspective as the reader, we see exactly how Harry managed Buckbeak's escape, but Dumbledore doesn't know the method, only the outcome. There is only a slight chance that Dumbledore could have foreseen that Harry would save himself, and it is only after the full events have played out that Harry explains it to him. So, the goal of Harry, Hermione, and Dumbledore at that point in time, was to simply enlist the help of the escaped Buckbeak in saving Sirius; not specifically to untie Buckbeak and lead him away, not specifically for Harry to save himself from the Dementors. Yes, Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione back in time, but at that specific time, none of them knew the details of the events that unfolded. They went back with the specific purpose of saving Sirius which HAD NOT yet occurred in time. The other incidences merely documented how things managed to work out, and that allows them to return from time travel with full knowledge of those events. So, do you see my point? Harry and Hermione didn't go back in time to do the things they did. They worked out those details and took actions spontaneously as they went. True their after-knowledge does confirm their foreknowledge, but it doesn't dictate it. This should help answer the question of why they went back in time when apparently everything had already worked itself out. Of course, the answer is that one crucial event had not worked itself out, Sirius's escape, and it is this one unresolved event that they go back in time to fix. It is only by chance that there presences in the past also worked out several known events. Just a comment to the subject in general. Steve/bboymin - who both loves and hates time travel discussions. From celizwh at intergate.com Sun Jul 31 23:31:09 2005 From: celizwh at intergate.com (houyhnhnm102) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:31:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Puppetmaster In-Reply-To: <42ED3718.1080906@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135825 KJ: I think that we tend to under-estimate Dumbledore in trying to explain his death and activities. He is as single-minded in his endeavors as Voldemort is in his. houyhnhnm: Agreed. Dumbledore is a harsh master in many ways. I have an image in my mind of Dumbledore sitting at a great cosmic loom. Every person who crosses his path is another thread which he uses to complete his tapestry. Individual patterns within the tapestry may not work out as he intended; the colors sometimes clash, but he goes on weaving because his focus is on the completion of the whole. I can also see him as a juggler--of probabilities--with hundreds of balls in the air at the same time. Or a gambler with multiple games all going on at the same time. He places Harry with the Dursleys. He has to weigh the necessity of keeping Harry safe from Voldemort against the psychological damage the Dursleys may inflict on Harry. It works out because Harry's ability to love is *not* damaged by his cruel upbringing. He weighs the need for Harry to learn from Snape against the role he has given Snape (or allowed him to continue in). He weighs the need to keep Sirius safe, against the danger of Sirius' nature making him do something rash. In these two cases it doesn't work out. I don't see either of these outcomes as showing that Dumbledore makes "mistakes". Rather he makes choices. And "it is our choices ... that show us what we truly are ...." Dumbledore *sacrificing* his life is completely in character for me. Dumbledore *pleading* for his life is completely unbelievable. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 23:41:26 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:41:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Puppetmaster In-Reply-To: <42ED3718.1080906@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > I think that we tend to under-estimate Dumbledore in trying to > explain his death and activities. He is as single-minded in his > endeavors as Voldemort is in his. > :> One wonders what Dumbledore does with his own > thoughts and memories while Snape has his Pensieve. > > KJ Valky: Before I start raving how much I agree with you KJ, I'll just give you a quick answer to this. I suppose, just as was shown in HBP, he'd keep them in little glass bottles. I have to admit, if Dumbledore asked Severus Snape for a particularly telling memory and Snape pulled it swiftly and completely undulterated from his head, *that* would be an irrefutable reason to trust him. And your suggestion that Snape may also be handing over memories on demand to Dumbledore throughout his many years would easily count as a good reason to trust him. In HBP, Dumbledore shows Harry that its not a first for bottles of memory to be shared among Wizards, and with a Past and an ability for Occlumency like Snape has, LV's Legilimency vs Dumbledores Pensieves is a brilliant comparison KJ! Let's look at that. Legilimens take information by force, without consent, only someone trained in blocking can prevent it happening. These are the Weapons of LV. Cruelty - Secrecy - Domination Pensieves on the other hand are only useful if the memory is conciously and willingly given. They can be tampered with, but even a clever Wizard like Slughorn only manages a glaringly obvious job of t. True he conceals the truth, but he can't conceal the fact that he is concealing. These are the Tools of Dumbledore. Hope - Truth - Choice. Yes, they definitely beg to be compared don't they. Especially since we must know by know these are the weapons/tools that each of the two great Wizards are using in their dealings with Snape. Now many may beg to differ that Dumbledores tools are of any use on a person like Snape. But I disagree. We have canon that proves differently, that proves that the use of these exact tools by Harry has reached Severus, and invoked his curiosity. Rather than write it over again I'll point you to the post that introduces the canon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135779 >From here we can become rather interested again in the ambiguity of Snape. If we like. Or we can just write him off as ESE now, whichever you like. *shrugs* Valky - Who'll be very dissappointed if the Snape debate dies now, after she has finally climbed down from her perch on the fence. ;D From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 23:46:49 2005 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:46:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? - Precision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135827 I'm talking of the *actual* romance in HBP, not of all the foreshadowing, and not of the pre-romance tension either. Just the romance itself, and the effects it has on Harry. That's the part I've missed :-) Del From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun Jul 31 23:51:40 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:51:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Where is the canon about Harry and Ginny? - Pre... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135828 Well, yes. I think we did miss that in HBP, coming out of the blue. It's funny, I used to ship Luna with Harry before HBP, but Harry/Ginny didn't bother me that much. Maybe it's just that Dumbledore's death and Snape's betrayal bothered me more. (blast, I'm rambling) Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pansophy2000 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 31 21:44:05 2005 From: pansophy2000 at yahoo.com (pansophy2000) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:44:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore ... COME ON HE IS NOT DEAD! not for long! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135829 Marianne: > > Well, if JKR's only reason to bump off Sirius is to make me > believe > > that DD could also die, when she's really planning on bringing him > > back, then that's an incredibly stupid reason. Especially, if what > > you seem to suggest is some authorial sleight of hand: Sirius is > > killled off, so I'll believe it when DD is apparently killed. > And, > > then, in Book 7, DD springs up alive? And, I'm supposed to be > > happy about this? I'd feel manipulated in the extreme. Pan: Yeah, you are probably right on most counts and DD is really gone. I just don't like it...its depressing to think about...and now I am really beginning to ponder whether Harry himself will be alive at the end of book 7, especially since JKR has been firm about this being the last book. He has escaped Voldermort in large part from the protections other people have given him through out the books. And while you do not seem to think that Harry not being able to handle Snape should impact how he might be able to handle Voldermort, I disagree. Perhaps I have at least gotten past the denial phase of death :) From ahsonazmat at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 23:10:33 2005 From: ahsonazmat at gmail.com (ahsonazmat) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:10:33 -0000 Subject: How Inclusive is the Prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135830 I had a thought, and perhaps someone has already aired this out. But if not: the prophecy by Trelawney, to Dumbledore, heard by Snape, known to Harry and LV...didn't DD say that it was effective and, indirectly, "binding", only inasmuch as Harry and LV chose to acknowledge it? Often it is mentioned, in HBP, that it is only because Harry and LV _act_ on it that it applies - LV in trying to kill Harry when he was an infant, Harry with the same reciprocate intention now. But, as DD said to Harry, they could "walk away", and the prophecy would mean nothing. It means something only becuase Harry would not want to walk away, would want to see LV destroyed. I don't think anyone here doubts DD's chances against LV. He is the "only one he (LV) ever feared", the greatest wizard of the age, and certainly, more powerful that Harry, whose magical powers would "not even register" in the boat, compared to DD's. Further, it was DD who could get through all of LV's obstacles, something LV thought none but the "exceptionally greatest" could do. We have to keep in mind that while Harry has great stores of love, he doesn't have anything of the skill, power, or knowledge of magic that DD has. And I don't doubt that DD possesses this wild card power of love, either. So when the two of them are in the cave, why does DD insist that his own life is less valuable than Harry's? Harry doesn't _have_ to be the one to destroy LV, if both Harry and DD choose to ignore the prophecy. DD could be the one to engage LV directly, while Harry merely helped in the treasure hunt for the horcruxes. What do you think? AA From djklaugh at comcast.net Sun Jul 31 23:43:54 2005 From: djklaugh at comcast.net (Deb) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:43:54 -0000 Subject: Horcrux creation and different kinds of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 135831 (Snip) > Valky: > will die if Harry kills him too. And neither can Harry kill Voldemort > now, because Voldemort won't die unless Harry dies too. But this > involutes the prophecy because it means that neither can *die* if the > other survives, not that neither can live. Unless we consider also > that they aren't ever going to work together and Voldemort will still > wish to kill Harry, but survive so he can reclaim his piece of soul, > and Harry will not want to live if it helps Voldemort achieve his ends > but he knows the Voldemort will not give up trying to kill him, and he > must survive to stop Voldemort reclaiming his soul, the only way to > survive is to kill Voldemort. > > So then Harry cannot live if Voldemort survives the battle, for the > battle won't end for Voldie till Harry is dead. And Voldemort cannot > live if Harry survives the battle for if Harry finds a way to survive > it will almost certainly be taking Voldemorts life. (Snip) > After plotting that scenario my brain is in knots so I'll let you > ponder it a bit before I go on with other thoughts. > > Valky Deb writes: What might be the antithesis of the prophecy part that states "neither can live while the other survives"? How about "Both can live if neither one dies"? The prophecy states "the one with the power to *vanquish* the Dark Lord approaches" (emphasis added). The prophecy does NOT state the one approaching can/will/should/must **kill** the Dark Lord... it says this one has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Webster's New World Dictionary (the only dictionary I have here at home) defines "vanquish" thusly: "1-to conquer or defeat in battle: force into submission. 2. a)to defeat in any conflict as in argument; b)to overcome (a feeling, condition, etc): surpress. Syn: see conquer." JKR has said in an interview that she crafted the prophecy very carefully and specifically... I think if she had meant that LV had to be killed in order to be overcome she would have conveyed that meaning. If this is indeed the sense of the prophecy then the task Harry faces is how to defeat LV without killing him. An even greater and more challenging task than just offing the wicked dude.. IMO Deb