Paradox of Time Travel in PoA

[meltowne]

No: HPFGUIDX 132202

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jlv230" <jlv230 at y...> wrote:
> > Davenclaw: 
> > I think it is logically impossible to say that Harry was ALWAYS 
> > saved by a time-travelling Harry, when Harry didn't get the 
> > opportunity to go back in time until after the encounter with the 
> > dementors.

JLV:
> I think to understand this you really do need to think four-
> dimensionally. Harry's timeline is distinct from the timeline of, 
> say, Hogwarts, Sirius, Buckbeak and Dumbledore just like these are 
> distinct in a three-dimensional sense. Harry's timeline *relative 
> to* pretty much everyone else (but Hermione) loops back on itself, 
> yes, but nothing else has this fold. We only see `the same time 
> twice' according to Harry, *relative to* the timeframe of Hogwarts. 
> Harry doesn't actually `experience' time twice – he's older when he 
> casts the Patronus than when he sees it – and Hogwarts doesn't 
> experience time twice. 

I have to agree with you, JLV.  It is all a matter or perspective.  I 
think JKR tricks us into believing something has been changed when it 
has not.  Consider Dumbledore's statemrnt to H&H when he sends them 
back

"If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent 
life tonight."  From H&H's perspective, he is suggesting that they 
can save more than Siruis - but is that what he's really saying?  JKR 
worded it very carefully (or she had DD do so), for both our sake and 
theirs.  I think he knows they have *alread* saved Buckbeak.  When we 
witness it the second time, DD calls Fudge back to sign the order, 
giving them extra time to move Buckbeak, as if he knows they are out 
there.

I also have to agree with your thought that changing time would 
involve changing the motive for going back.  It you've already fixed 
the problem there's no reason to go back.  Notice they don't go back 
to save buckbeak, but from their perspective they end up doing it - 
nobody ever told them the Buckbeak had actually been executed - they 
assumed that he had based on what they heard.    JKR actually gives 
us several clues that these two sets of events are concurrent all 
along:

first, they hear the door slam as they are leaving the castle - "they 
heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall and a door 
slamming".  Then, when they leave Hagrid's hut, "Harry felt strangely 
sureal, and even moreso when he saw Buckbeak a few yards away..."  
Why did Harry feel sureal?  Maybe because he subconsciously sensed 
his own presence in the weeks, watching himself.  

If they went back and changed something, they would remember both 
their original past and the changed past - Harry remembers that he 
thought his father had saved him, but also remembers that it was 
himself who cast the patronus.

An excellent example of what might happen if the past were changed is 
shown in the movie "The Butterfly Effect" where the main character 
travels back to change events in his own past, with various results.  
As he experiences more "pasts" his brain overloads - because he knows 
what changes he made, and what would have happened if he didn't make 
those changes.  He laments the bad decisions he made in attempting 
to "fix" the past.

As for quantum leap, the premise seems to be that Sam somehow keeps 
ending up in the wrong timeline - thus he must make corrections to 
return to the proper timestream.  In that show it was as if somebody 
or something had caused changes in the past.  But note that all the 
errors were based on Sam's perspective, and as with Butterfly Effect, 
little chages have far reaching consequences.