TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 132318

Cap'n SSSusan of the DRIBBLE SHADOWS, bowing to Cap'n Dung of the 
*infinitely* better named CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO. 

"Welcome to the Bay, Cap'n Dung.  And a tip of the hat to you, too, 
Cap'n Neri.  How *do* you manage to pilot both the VASSAL and the 
ELKINS AVENGED??"

Dungrollin stated:
> This is the important bit ---->
> 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds
> uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had finished
> breaking through her memory charm (but before he disposed of her,
> obviously).<-----

Neri replied:
I think "sounds uncannily like" is a bit of a strong expression here,
since all we know about Bertha's state is Voldy's words: "she was fit
for nothing after my questioning, quite useless" (GoF, Ch. 1). 
Voldy's criteria for Bertha's fitness and usefulness might not be 
the same as Bertha's own criteria. Not a problematic point exactly, 
but making it the main canon of a new ship several days before the 
hurricane strikes me as a bit unsafe. Granted, I'm hardly the person 
to talk.

SSSusan:
I think I'd be less inclined to quibble about this than you, Neri.  
It's true that this isn't a very *thorough* description of Bertha, 
and we have a much better picture of what condition Alice & Frank 
are in from having witnessed them at St. Mungo's, but I do think 
Dung's correct that the similarity is notable.  "Fit for nothing, 
quite useless" – sounds like someone whose mind's pretty much gone, 
a la Frank & Alice, to me.


Dung theorized:
I favour the idea that the Longbottoms *agreed* to have their
memories erased by Crouch and Dumbledore, knowing that their
knowledge of the prophecy would be invaluable to the Death Eaters.
<snip>
DD wanted to set up Fidelius charms to protect the Longbottoms and
the Potters, with himself as secret-keeper. For whatever reason
(though I'm happy to agree with Snape that it was James' arrogance),
the Potters refuse, and go with Sirius. The Longbottoms accepted
DD's offer, and so he told them the prophecy, knowing that the
information was safe with them. After Voldy got gassed at GH, a
number of DEs were still at large, and DD and Crouch knew that this
meant the Longbottoms were in danger of revealing the prophecy. So
they all got together, and Frank and Alice agreed to have their
memories modified.  At home, Barty Crouch Senior lets slip that he
had to modify the memories of two of his best Aurors because they
knew something important, and Barty Crouch Junior (assuming
excitedly that this means they know where Voldy's hiding) scurries
off to his Death Eater pals to plan an evening's Auror torture.

Neri:
Another small problem I see with this is that if DD and Crouch Sr.
worked together, then DD would know (or at least highly suspect) how
Crouch Jr. came by the information about the Longbottoms. So why did
DD say to Harry in the GoF Pensieve chapter that he had no idea if
Crouch Jr. was guilty or not?

SSSusan:
Here I tend to be in agreement with Neri.  The weakest portion of 
the CROUCHING theory imo – which Dungrollin herself admits ["And 
anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and cobbled 
the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will be... 
ahem... correct"] – is the inclusion of Crouch Sr.  WHY would DD 
have been working with him?  Did he ever really trust him enough to 
have included him in something this important?

But then again, the idea that DD offered to be SK for both couples, 
only the Longbottoms accepted, and so only the Longbottoms knew the 
prophecy's contents, and Crouch Jr. heard about it via Crouch Sr. 
*does* make for a nice little unfolding of events.  And if Crouch 
Sr. is removed from the equation, then how would Barty Jr. have 
found out & informed Bella, et al., that they needed to get to the 
Longbottoms?


Neri suggested:
So the options I see are:

1. Neither Neville nor his parents are MCharmed. 

2. Both Neville and his parents are MCharmed (requires an explanation
how Neville got it too, and also why is Neville's charm much weaker
than that of his parents).

3. Neville is MCharmed but his parents are merely traumatized 

4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents
were MCharmed 

5. Neville's parents were treated with Forgetfulness Potion and
Neville got it from them through the wrappers (the ELKINS AVENGED
scenario. 


SSSusan:
I see a 6th possibility, or at least an extention of #2.  And it 
fits with what Dung proposed:

Dung:
To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and
Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which had
been placed on Frank and Alice.

SSSusan:
IOW, Possibility 6 is that Neville and his parents were both 
MCharmed, but Frank & Alice are so much worse off because they were 
*also* tortured so horribly by the DEs trying to break through the 
MCs.  

I still can't offer an explanation as to why Neville would have been 
MCharmed at age 15 – 18 months (or thereabouts), but there certainly 
has been speculation by an awful lot of people that Neville's been 
MC'ed.  So maybe someone else will pitch in here with a suggestion 
for that?

Neri concluded: 
Neri, getting really fed up with ship biscuits and tuna, and wishing 
the hurricane would be here already.

SSSusan:
We've still got margarita fixin's on the DRIBBLE SHADOWS.  You're 
welcome to set your gangplank against her & come aboard!

Siriusly Snapey Susan