TBAY: Longbottoms and memory charms

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 132338

> Captain Neri, from his place at the helm of the ELKINS AVENGED, 
> looks through his ominiculars at the new ship who has the nerve to 
> invade these dangerous waters. "Man the cannons!" he bellows at 
his 
> crew. "Lets find out if the fish of Theory Bay like to eat cat 
> poo!"

"Argh..." There is a spluttering and groaning sound from the bowels 
of the CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO. Dungrollin (for it is she) 
staggers on deck. She squints into the sun as the ELKINS AVENGED, 
all shiny and streamlined swans into view. "Damn. He's got a crew. 
All I've got's a hangover."


> Dungrollin wrote <snipped>:
> > This is the important bit ---->
> > 4. The state in which we currently find the Longbottoms, sounds 
> > uncannily like the state of Bertha Jorkins after Voldy had 
> > finished breaking through her memory charm (but before he 
> > disposed of her, obviously).<-----
> 
> Neri:
> I think "sounds uncannily like" is a bit of a strong expression 
> here, since all we know about Bertha's state is Voldy's 
words: "she 
> was fit for nothing after my questioning, quite useless" (GoF, Ch. 
> 1). Voldy's criteria for Bertha's fitness and usefulness might not 
> be the same as Bertha's own criteria. Not a problematic point 
> exactly, but making it the main canon of a new ship several days 
> before the hurricane strikes me as a bit unsafe. Granted, I'm 
hardly the person to talk.  
> 

"...!" Dung exclaims as a can(n)onball whooshes overhead. She looks 
darkly at the ELKINS AVENGED. "That was the warning shot, right?" 
She looks around in agitation, discovers a handy goblet of pepperup 
potion in the first aid kit, and swallows it.  Slightly stunned and 
smoking gently (but at least more alert) she gazes around at the 
plywood and insulating tape vessel she has constructed.  "I *know* 
it's rickety, I was the one who lashed it together with spit and 
string to make it fit its name."

As SSSusan so gallantly came to my defence I shall leave this to 
her.  Hurricanes do your worst, I shall remain afloat, clinging to 
the plank upon which CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN CAT POO is inscribed, 
even if the rest of the boat is reduced to kindling.  

> Dungrollin wrote:
> > But what about Crouch Senior? We never saw DD and Crouch 
> > together, except in the Pensieve, where they hardly had the 
> > opportunity to give us clues about their relationship. I don't 
> > necessarily think they particularly liked each other, but they 
> > may well have shared a good deal of information about fighting 
> > Voldy. The head of the Order of the Phoenix, and the head of the 
> > Department of Magical Law Enforcement exchanging information and 
> > working together. Sounds plausible, right?
> 
> Neri:
> Another small problem I see with this is that if DD and Crouch Sr.
> worked together, then DD would know (or at least highly suspect) 
> how Crouch Jr. came by the information about the Longbottoms. So 
> why did DD say to Harry in the GoF Pensieve chapter that he had no 
> idea if Crouch Jr. was guilty or not? 
> 

A noise like a fire-cracker going off ricochets around the bay.  
There is a Dumbledore-shaped hole in one of the tea-trays that was 
commandeered for the port flank of the CROUCHING TIGER. Thankfully 
the hole is small, and well above the waterline. 

Dumbledore not knowing whether Crouch Junior was innocent or not is 
perfectly possible and compatible with the theory. DD probably knows 
that the DEs tortured their way through the memory charm, and thinks 
that the Longbottoms have no hope of recovery (FWIW, I hope they 
don't recover, I like a good tragic past).  He swallows Crouch 
Senior's cover story, that the DEs attacked the Longbottoms because 
they thought they knew what had happened to Voldemort after GH. 
Crouch Senior is hardly going to admit that it was his slip of the 
tongue that put Junior and co on the scent of the Longbottoms, is 
he? He's set to lose enough from the whole horrible series of events 
as it is.  Junior is protesting his innocence, while Bonkers Bella 
insists they were trying to find Voldy.  Why should DD think Crouch 
Senior let the info loose?  

SSSusan twists the knife:
Here I tend to be in agreement with Neri. The weakest portion of
the CROUCHING theory imo – which Dungrollin herself admits ["And
anyone caught insinuating that I only involved Crouch and cobbled
the thing together at all because I liked the acronym will be...
ahem... correct"] – is the inclusion of Crouch Sr. WHY would DD
have been working with him? Did he ever really trust him enough to
have included him in something this important?

Dungrollin:
Actually, a little tweak and all is well.  Crouch Senior not only 
gets the Longbottoms to agree to have a memory charm, but he agrees 
to have one himself, having been told at least about the existence 
of the prophecy (if not the specific wording) by DD too.  What he 
lets slip to his son is that he and the Longbottoms "...had to have 
memory charms, and it's so strange, isn't it? Because I obviously 
can't remember why I needed it... leaves one a bit disoriented, you 
know?  Ah well, must get on with some work. You can amuse yourself, 
can't you, Junior?"

That way DD would never assume that it was Crouch Senior who put 
Junior and the others onto the Longbottoms.

> Dungrollin wrote: 
> > To be honest, the only bit I'm sure of is that Crouch Junior and 
> > Bella and co tortured their way through a memory charm, which 
had 
> > been placed on Frank and Alice.  The rest is all trying to make 
> > sense of it.
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> If it is found that Frank and Alice are Memory Charmed, then what
> about Neville? Either he was MCharmed too (why?!) or his memory
> problems are merely psychological with nothing magical about them.
> That last possibility, IMO, would come out rather lame. 
> Has JKR been playing Neville's poor memory since forever only to 
> tell us in the end that it's *his parents* that received the 
memory 
> charm, while Neville himself is actually fine, thanks? Nope, *if* 
> Frank and Alice are indeed MCharmed, I think it strongly implies 
> that Neville is Mcharmed too.  
>  

Ah, now. You see, if I were patient and thorough and not prone to 
constructing flimsy craft out of whatever materials were at hand, I 
could make a good case that Neville's problems are *all* about 
confidence, and nothing to do with memory charms at all. I think, 
Neri, that you're possibly a little guilty of accepting a theory 
(albeit a very convincing one) as canon here, no?

You remember when Crouch!Moody told Neville that Professor Sprout 
had said he was good at Herbology?  Do you think Professor Sprout 
had ever said anything of the kind?  No, neither do I.  It was 
simply Crouch!Moody's way of getting the book describing Gillyweed 
into Harry's dormitory. From that moment on, though, from having had 
no confidence in anything at all, Neville believes (erroneously) 
that a *teacher* said that he's good at something.  As his 
confidence in Herbology increases, so do his marks, until Herbology 
is clearly his best subject. And with a little confidence thus 
gained, and a bit of fear and determination when the DEs escape 
Azkaban, his confidence in DADA increases still further.  Even 
McGonagall says that in Transfiguration all he lacks is confidence, 
she never upbraids him for forgetting incantations.  

But I don't have my books with me, and I'm not feeling patient or 
thorough. Anyone else fancy having a crack at it? You don't have to 
believe it, just argue it...


Neri, Snipped:
> 4. Neville's memory problems are completely natural but his parents
> were MCharmed (as I wrote above this would be rather lame plotting 
IMO).

Dungrollin:
That's your case? Pah! It only seems a bit rubbish because I can't 
work out why Who Knew About The Prophecy is going to be important. I 
just can't quite work out where or how or by whom or when. Or why, 
really. Whether it's important in terms of the backstory, or 
important in terms of future events and so on and so forth.


> Neri,
> getting really fed up with ship biscuits and tuna, and wishing the
> hurricane would be here already.

Have some little sausages on sticks.  I don't seem to be able to 
make myself eat the last few hundred.

By the way, Neri, I've been meaning to ask (and sorry for crossing 
TBAYs), but how is the VASSAL coping with "In choosing which boy to 
murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to 
anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard 
possessed - the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window 
into Voldemort's mind?" (JKR's most recent FAQ answer.)


Dungrollin
Apologising for the delay in responding, but trying to juggle a 
really very very slow and intermittently active internet connection.