General Rule of Law in the Wizard World & Sirius Estate

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 132367

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zgirnius" <zgirnius at y...> wrote:
> 
> Steve wrote:
> >..., the wizard world is a frontier society. They have just enough 
> >law to keep general order, and beyond that it's every man for 
> >himself. That's not really such a bad thing since most people are 
> >honest and really want to live a safe orderly life.
> > 
> > ... We see no general criminal law enforcement body. That apect 
> > seems to be left up to the general honesty of the wizard 
> > population.
> 
> zgirnius writes:
> ... But I would not say that the WW we have seen has a particularly 
> order-loving or honest population. I think your description of the
> WW as like a frontier society is right on....
> 

bboyminn:

Well, to some extent, I was just playing on the common phrase 'law and
order'. While I think that wizards are generally law abiding,
remembering that their law is very basic, and while they do have an
orderly society, it is at that same time very loose and somewhat
chaotic. Again, it's that frontier society mentality. In the frontier
town of Dodge City, an orderly day was a day when no one got shot.
Just like Dodge City, everyone over the age of 11 is armed. It's an
EXTREMELY good day in the wizard world if it passes with no one
getting cursed. Which, by the way, I think would be next to
impossible. Armed, free, and not to closely monitored citizens tend to
meter out their own justice. Unlike Dodge City gunfighters, wizards
have a wide range of non-lethal curses available to them.


> > steve again:
> > So the short version is, in regard to resolving Sirius's Will and
> > Estate, it's simply a matter of Dumbledore and others convincing 
> > the court that Harry should get the estate, rather than heavy 
> > reliance on specific applied law.
> > 
> > ... If  'eldest son' is given precedence, and a Will exists or 
> > Sirius expressed his wishes to witnesses, then it's a fight 
> > between Harry and Draco over the estate. ...

> zgirnius:
> .... As far as I can tell from the books, the estate 
> consists of two major parts: the account at Gringott's  Bank, and 
> the Black family home at 12 Grimmauld Place. If Sirius has not left
> any instructions with the bank, this is something I could see going 
> to Draco. Steve, here I take your word for the fact that he would be
> the  closest male heir. Was Narcissa Malfoy, nee Black, the eldest 
> of the three sisters? I do not recall the Black family tree in 
> detail. 
> 

bboyminn:

Actually, it's more complicated than that. We have two separate
estates; the personal estate of Sirius Black, and the historical Black
Family Estate. There could be restictions on the nature and
disposition of that Black Family estate. These are referred to as
'entailments'. Sirius Black's personal estate is likely to be
unentailed; no restrictions.

Sirius's personal estate would consist of the money left to him by his
uncle, and any money he may have accumulated from his personal efforts
or his personal investments. Since his uncle was able to leave the
money to Sirius, that implies that the money was originally unentailed. 

This may or may not include a flat somewhere in London. Sirius said
when he inherited the money from his uncle, that he got a place of his
own. Many people have interpreted that to mean he bought a place, but
it's possible that he rented it, and it's also possible, if he owned
it, he lost it for non-payment of taxes while he was in prison. Either
way, I'm thinking Sirius' vault money that was used to pay for Harry's
Firebolt Broom, came from Sirius's personal money, not his family money.

On another issue, since in OLD English Common Law, inheritance by the
eldest son (eldest male relative) was the default, it represents a
strong enough legal precendent that Sirius would have inherited the
Black Family Estate even though he was disowned and a prisoner at the
time. Being the eldest son gave Sirius a very strong legal right to
take control of the estate; far stonger than any other living relative
of the Black Family.

So, upon inheriting the Black Estate, Sirius would gain control of the
family bank accounts and family property. Although, I think it is safe
to assume that since Sirius was in prison, all aspects of the Black
Estate essentially laid dormant. Further, given the animosity between
Sirius and his parents, I think Sirius would have to be EXTREMELY
desperate before he would use any money or property belonging the the
family estate.

On the issue of Draco, Narcissa's status and position in the family
means nothing, since males are given preference, it's the fact that
Draco is the only (known) living male who still has Black blood
flowing in his veins that makes Draco the next likely heir. 

Again, I am operating under the assumption that the wizard world
adheres to the OLD historic traditional Common Law principle of the
oldest male getting everything, a principle that while not as strong
as it used to be, still comes into play in the modern world.

Later Common Law and modern law do not necessarily follow this
principle unless there are specific entailments attached to a will,
land, title, etc... Also, now in modern times it is much easier to
break restricting entailments. In the past, they could restict an
estate forever, though more likely for several centuries or several
generations.

> zgirnius writes:
> However, I do not think the family home will ever end up in the WW's 
> version of probate court. I believe that the various enchantments on 
> it ... mean that no one outside the OotP can even get to it...so how
> could they claim it? 

bboyminn:
What you say is true, but as an illustration, just because I can't
find my car keys, doesn't mean they aren't here somewhere. The point
is that the Black Family home has probably been there for generations,
and the Blacks were a rich prominent purblood family. People in the
wizard world know their house exists even if they can't find it. Also,
while deep down they may know of its existance, after many year of the
Black family's absents from the wizard world, I suspect a majority of
people have forgotten about them. Certainly, the remaining Black
family female cousin know of the houses existance. Again, they know it
exist, even if they don't know where it is.


> zgirnius writes:
> After all, if the WW authorities had any way at all to get to it, 
> this would certainly have been among the first places they would 
> have checked when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, ...

bboyminn: 

At some point, I'm sure they consider that possibility, but Sirius
would have to be pretty stupid to return to his family home in London
while he was the most hunted man in all of Great Britian. We know
Sirius's forefather placed every kind of enchantment on the house, but
I'm guessing those were muggle protections and general magical
security protections, but I don't think the house was completely
hidden from wizards. Protected from them, but not necessarily hidden
from them.

However, once Dumbledore put the Secret Keeper Charm on the house, not
even a wizard could find it unless Dumbledore told them where it was.

Overall, I think the Ministry is just too scatter brained to think of
staking out the Black Mansion. Once Dumbledore reformed the Order,
then Shacklebolt was heading the investigation and spreading
misinformation about Sirius's whereabouts, which meant the Black House
was safe. 

Review of Key points-
-Frontier World - I really see the wizard world as a frontier. Their
non-magic criminal laws are very basic, and enforcement of non-magical
law is very thin.

-I think the wizard world is likely to conform to old legal traditions
like 'eldest male inherits all'.

-The courts are not so much ruled by the letter of the law, as they
are ruled by who can make the best argument in their own favor. Very
unfair, especially when the common man does not have an advocate in
the court to speak for him and protect his rights. Consider how
screwed Harry would have been if Dumbledore hadn't shown up. 

-I can't imagine how the next two books can NOT address the
disposition of the Black Family and Sirius's personal estates. That
said, because there are only two books, I think the conflict will be
set up on page, but from that point on, it will occur off page. On
page, we will simply see the increased tension between Harry and Draco
over this issue.

-A slightly related point - How do wizards deal with property taxes?
Malfoy manor, I'm lead to believe, is a pretty significant mansion in
Wiltshire. How does Malfoy manage to hide that from the taxman? How
did the Black family deal with the taxman? I just don't see the
government conveniently forgetting about significant real estate like
this. And what happens when street construction, or whatever, forces
the government to re-survey Grimmauld Place? How do the surveyer
explain to their boss, that a big chunk of London's prime real estate
has vanished from the face of the earth? Just curious.

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn