OOTP observations - Molly

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 132710

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"I get that, but there is a difference between caring for Harry and
the irrational degree of guardianship she seemed to think she was
entitled to."

Del replies:
Er, are we talking LOVE here, or are we not? Because love, *by
definition*, IS irrational. Just like it was completely irrational for
Harry to "fall in love" (no romantic meaning implied) with a godfather
he barely knew, it is indeed completely irrational for Molly to love
and care for Harry as much as she does. So what?? 

As for guardianship, Molly was simply continuing on the previous
years. Whenever Harry was at the Burrow, Molly WAS his guardian. She
was also Hermione's guardian when Hermione was there. So when Harry
and Hermione come at 12GP, it seems perfectly logical to me that Molly
would continue assuming her guardian role towards them.

I also think you're making the common mistake of assuming that every
HP character knows what's going on in Harry's heart and mind. We the
readers DO know how much Sirius counts for Harry. We learn right at
the beginning of GoF that Sirius is the parent-like figure Harry had
been looking for. But nobody else knows that (except maybe for Ron and
Hermione)! In particular, throughout GoF, *Molly* does NOT know
ANYTHING about Sirius, and much less how much Sirius counts for Harry,
how much Harry looks up to his godfather. When Harry arrives at 12GP,
Molly has known about the very EXISTENCE of Sirius for barely ONE
MONTH, and though she and Sirius had some talks about Harry, I
strongly doubt she's figured out what kind of relationship he and
Harry have. In particular, she seems extremely worried that Sirius is
not loving Harry for Harry, but as some kind of reincarnation of
James. And as it turns out, she is not *completely* wrong...

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"Well, yeah. Watching porn, setting random fires, and doing drugs are
are illegal and if Molly didn't stop Harry or any other child from
doing those things I would think less of her. But deciding what
information should be spread around is a more nebulous event than the
one you suggested."

Del replies:
Well, I chose watching porn *precisely* because it is NOT illegal in
my country (not as far as I know anyway), so it IS a very nebulous
event :-)

You're talking about that information as though it were harmless
information. But it's not. It is potentially very damaging information
for Harry. We're talking about the psychopathic terrorist who killed
Harry's parents, tried to kill him, tortured him, killed his
schoolmate, and is now trying to find a way to get rid of him, and
take over the country. We're talking about something even worse than
telling one of Ted Bundy's victims who would have miraculously escaped
him that he is bent on capturing her again and killing her for good
this time. A 15-year-old victim, barely a month after the initial
abduction, AND right after she's demonstrated that she's not in her
normal state by yelling at the top of her lungs at her two best
friends (something she'd never done before). I'm sorry, but I
*completely* understand that Molly didn't want that talk to take place
just yet.


phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"Molly has no right to decide how much information Harry can handle. "

Del replies:
That's not what she's doing. She is only fighting to make sure Sirius
follows DD's orders.

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"she just wanted to keep him sheltered. understandable but unhealthy
and with hindsight, ultimately wrong. She was a control freak.  She
wanted to be the one to parent harry and to dispense information when
she wanted to give it out. IMO, she stepped way over bounds with both
Harry and Sirius."

Del replies:

1. Keeping children sheltered IS part of being a parent. Deciding how
much they should be sheltered is one of the trickiest things to figure
out for a parent.

2. It is NOT unhealthy per se to shelter kids. Quite the opposite in
fact: it IS unhealthy NOT to shelter kids at all, especially about
traumatising things, as Molly was afraid Sirius was about to do.

3. Molly was following DD's lead. If anyone was a control freak, it
was DD, not Molly. And Sirius was quite a control freak too, by the way.

4. Hindsight is always 20/20.

5. Molly didn't *want* to be the parent IMO: she just happened to
*have been* the parent for several summers already.

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"Then she is being irrational and should be called on it."

Del replies:
Yes, she IS irrational: she loves a kid who is NOTHING to her. She
lets her kids take risks for/with that kid. She takes risks herself.
That is extremely irrational indeed. Do you think she should be called
on the fact that it is irrational of her to love and care so much for
Harry?

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"Sirius is Harry's *Godfather*.  Best friends with Harry's parents.
Keeper of a lot of Harry's past.  Probably there when the kid was
born.  If she is really that resentful of the bond between Harry and
Sirius she is truly a reprehensible person."

Del replies:
Sirius is a reckless person. Sirius just spent 12 years in Azkaban.
Sirius is moody. Sirius did not see Harry growing up. And most of all:
Molly has known Sirius Black as a Muggle mass-murderer, a DE, and the
traitor who sold James and Lily Potter to LV for the last 13 years. It
has only been ONE MONTH that she's known differently! *And* it has
also been only one month that she's even KNOWN about the existence of
A bond between Harry and Sirius and she most probably doesn't know the
DEPTH of that bond.

Basically, you are asking Molly to have known everything that happened
in PoA and GoF. But she did NOT follow those events!

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"That makes it alright?  The worst things I have ever seen a parent do
to a child were done out of misguided love."

Del replies:
I find that remark horribly offensive and seriously misinformed. Looks
to me like you don't know very much about parental abuse.

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"I just think she should be called on it. Throw those remarks of her
back into her face and force her to think about what she says instead
of just turing as red as her hair and spouting off."

Del replies:
And WHAT exactly did she say to/about Harry that you find so terrible??

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"So she is right to bully her husband? She was right to forget about
the Twins when she was happy that Ron had become a prefect? so she was
right to try and crush the dreams of the twins when they don't fit
into her version of what they should do?  Molly has the right to raise
her kids they way she wants but she goes out of her way to belittle
ideas and dreams they have that are not hers."

Del replies:

1. Arthur: Molly doesn't bully him. Using such a term to define their
relationship cheapens its real meaning. Snape bullies Neville, yes,
but Molly doesn't bully Arthur. 

2. The Twins: as many have explained already, Molly most probably
never considered the Twins as Prefect material because *they
themselves* have always actively refused to be seen that way. So Molly
is basically saying "that's everyone who COULD make it".

3. The Twins' ambition: like it or not, but it IS part of being a good
parent to ensure your children's future. My mother *forced* my sister
to graduate from high school. My sister resented that at the time, but
a few years later, when her alternative plans failed (not through any
lack of support from my mom, in case you wondered), she *profusely*
thanked my mom for forcing her to get her high school diploma. She
honestly acknowledged that she had been wrong and extremely
short-sighted, and that my mom DID know better.

Moreover, there is one crucial detail in the case of the Twins: MONEY.
You need money to start up a business like they dream of, and Molly
knows full well that money doesn't grow on trees. She knows full well
that unless a *miracle* happens, the Twins will NOT be able to gather
the funds to start their business. It's not a matter of talent, it's
not a matter of skills, it's simply a matter of funds: they just do
NOT have that, and without that their dream is just that, a *dream*.
And if her kids won't be reasonable, then it is her DUTY to be
reasonable for them and to ensure that they will have some kind of
future without getting stuck in some low-paid unqualified job.

phoenixgod2000 wrote:
"Yes she does, but saying her mind does not give her the right to
treat the twins they way she does. Or treat Arthur the way she does.
Or try to infantalize Harry the way she tries to do. Being a good
parent is about supporting your kids and giving them the tools to
fufill their dreams, not yours.  Something tells me that Molly isn't
all that good at that part of the job."

Del replies:
Personally, judging on the result, I'd say Molly did a TERRIFIC job. 

1. Bill: Prefect, Head Boy, excellent school results, capable, dream
job (well paid, highly qualified, and fun), apparently emotionally
healthy, good morals, independent enough to go and live in foreign
countries (unless you think he's been running away from Molly, which
is a possibility).

2. Charlie: Prefect, Quidditch Captain, good school results, capable,
a job he loves, apparently emotionally healthy, good morals,
independent enough to go and live in a foreign country (unless etc...)

3. Percy: Prefect, Head Boy, excellent school results, capable, good
job. Granted, Percy has emotional and moral problems, but he's still
young.

4. The Twins: highly capable when they choose to, good job in
perspective, apparently emotionally healthy, good morals (overall),
independent.

5. Ron: Prefect, not-so-bad school results for now, capable when he
tries and believes in himself, working through his emotional problems,
good morals.

6. Ginny: survived a possession by Diary!Tom, overcame her huge crush
on Harry, good morals, apparently emotionally healthy, not known to be
doing so badly in school, has spunk.

I'd say Molly did wonderfully indeed! Sure she's not the perfect mom,
she loses it sometimes, and she lets her heart overtake her mind at
times. So what?? There is NO such thing as The Perfect Mom. Molly
loves her kids, her husband and Harry, her *worst fear* is to lose one
of them, and she's working hard at making them as happy and safe as
possible, even if she's sometimes mistaken on the way to do that. I
say : go Molly, go!!

Del