HBP: Assorted threads in one...(LONG)

[jmgarciaiii]

No: HPFGUIDX 133012

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" <c.john at i...> 
wrote:
> > It is my belief that Harry Potter is an intended Horcrux.
> > 
> > That Voldemort intentionally made him a Horcrux in contrast to 
using
> > the Avada Kedavra Killing Curse on him.
> > 
> > From a Hopeful theorist; Mr Ogilvie who is waiting to see if his
> > brilliant 11 and 12 year old kids think the same thing.
> 
> It is possible that Voldemort did intend to kill Harry and then 
use 
> an item that he knew was in the house (Godric's Hollow) and thus 
> fulfill his wish to use items belonging to the founders!
> 
> However, I have thought about this (as have you) and the use of 
Harry 
> as a Horcrux does make a lot of sense. The question that then 
raises 
> it's head is - Does HArry have to die for Voldemort to be defeated?
> 
> I have wondered if the 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes, is 
the 
> fact that Voldemort had taken part of his soul back from Harry 
when 
> he reincarnated. Perhaps this release Harry from the need to die 
to 
> defeat Voldemort.

My take on this was that Harry WAS (not, you will note, "is") a 
Horcrux. LV needed that bit for his Rebirthing Party, it's what 
allowed him that rebirth. Perhaps a cleverer mind than mine can 
explain to me how Harry can kill LV (who, presumably, has some 
microscopic portion of his own soul in him, now that he has 
undergone rebirth) by dying. It also seems unlikely to me that 
Dumbledore couldn't detect that Harry was a Horcrux once he figured 
out the whole Horcrux thing. I'm pretty much agreeing with Boolean.

Mind you, as I was discussing this offline with another member  
(I'll let her out herself) we were struck by Hagrid's quote WAY BACK 
at the beginning (Ch. 4, I think) of Book One: "Some say [Voldemort] 
died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left 
in him to die." Which led us to speculate along the direction of the 
of what were LV's precautions against mortal death...eventually 
revealed to be the Horcruxes. This has led me to think there may be 
a lot more to Hagrid than we thought. He may be something of a 
goofball, and he is nowhere near being a qualified wizard, but there 
is an instinct there that seems quite powerful. Just a thought.

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" 
<kempermentor at y...> wrote:

> `But Snape AK'd Dumbledore
'
> 
> Yes
 but was Snape's intention to kill behind the Killing Curse.  
He 
> has the power, but does he have the will?  How many times have we 
> seen any kind of spell/charm/hex/whatever fail because the 
intention 
> wasn't there, even though the incantation was stated?  Here's how 
it 
> could have gone.
> 
> Snape says AK outloud though not meaning it, and he uses a 
nonverbal 
> (nvbl) spell to throw Dumbledore into a Death-like Sleep.  This 
spell 
> is one developed by Snape, maybe with some assistance from 
> Dumbledore.  We have already seen throughout the book that Snape, 
the 
> Half Blood Prince, has a knack for potion improvement and spell 
> creation. 

I found it interesting that, after only an offhand reference in Book 
1, the "Draught of [the?] Living Death" gets a lot of airplay in 
Book 6. (So does a bezoar, which came from teh 2st grilling Snape 
gave Harry...odd, that.)
 
> But Dumbledore pleaded for his life.
> 
> Dumbledore: `Severus
 please
'
> 
> `Pleaded' is Harry's perspective.  But instead of pleading for his 
> life perhaps he was pleading for Snape to follow through with 
their, 
> Dumbledore and Snape's, plan.

One perspective on the "Severus...please..." which I haven't heard 
is the more cajoling sense, i.e. the disbelieving "Please, don't do 
this to yourself"

> Other reasons why Snape may still be working for Dumbledore (dead 
or 
> alive):

[snip]

> 2. Dumbledore could have died, making the plan easier for Draco, 
had 
> Snape not saved Dumbledore after Dumbledore retrieved the ring and 
> suffered the curse that left his arm burnt or withered.

The plan was for Draco to *kill* Dumbledore, not to hang around and 
wait to see if Dumbledore died of the flu or from choking on a 
sandwich. Snape swore to do it if Draco could not. 

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" <vmonte at y...> wrote:
> Samatha Scattergood [Is this not a GREAT name or what?] for 
Waterstones - Which is your favourite member
> of the Order of the Phoenix?
> 
> JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of
> the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix 
that
> you have not yet met properly and you will ­­ well, you know that 
they
> are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you
> will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that.
> 
> 
> vmonte: It's got to be Aberforth. We know that he is an Order 
member 
> because he was in Moody's picture.

There is a tradition in mystery novels (I'm particularly thinking of 
Sherlock Holmes) in which the other brother is a talent surpassing 
the "famous" one, but for a number of reasons, never chose to 
exercise them. Sherlock always maintained (and there *is* 
corroborating evidence to this effect) that his brother Mycroft, 
was --by far--the superior talent. But, rather than becoming a 
consulting detective, he preferred to sit at his club and dabble 
occasionally. This is what I believe we shall see of Aberforth.

Now, to review...

I found this book, not necessarily BETTER than Book 5, but 
definitely more enjoyable to read, much like I enjoy my palate more 
than, say, my liver but that doesn't mean one is more important than 
the other. In fact, as I was zipping along reading it (10 nonstop 
hours) I kept thinking "This is very enjoyable, a little TOO 
enjoyable...I'm being set up...I KNOW IT."

I'm sure that RAB is Regulus A(lphard?) Black.

I'm surer than ever that Harry will "die" by crossing the veil, 
Odysseus-like.

One thing that Harry must do, besides gather Horcruxes like daisies, 
is become a more proficient wizard. He learns quickly enough when 
taught properly, but he is not someone who has yet "invented" any 
magic. We know that Snape (as the HBP) and LV both have and it's a 
cinch to assume Dumbledore has also invented spells and 
enchantments. Harry has not done this yet and, mark my words, he's 
gonna hafta.

I don't have a problem believing in ESE!Snape. My take on the 
Occlumency lessons led me to have a very jaundiced view of Snape and 
his intentions. I don't have anything invested in Snape being ESE or 
NonESE.

I think the existence of nonverbal magic AND the reinforced mentions 
of the Draught of Living Death means there is a small, improbable 
chance Dumbledore is still alive, somehow. I agree with Entropy's 
read of "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to 
the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you 
can possibly imagine...nobody would be surprised that you had died 
in your attempt to kill me..."

I am curious as to why Fortescue and Ollivander disappeared...and 
what became of them.

More later.

-Joe in SoFla