Snape/Familial relations/Malfoys

[Deb]

No: HPFGUIDX 133756

Rachel, 

Some comments and clarifications concerning your post... and some 
thoughts of my own on these topics.

Rachel:
> We know Snape to be an incredibly accomplished legelimens,
> but we do not know anything about anyone else in the order.

Snape is an Occlumens not a Legilimens. He can block out anyone 
else trying to read his thoughts or memories. He explains the 
difference to Harry in OOP when they first beging Occlumens lessons-

"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are 
able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their 
victims and to interpret their findings (the victims feelings and 
memories) correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always 
knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at 
Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that 
contradict the lie, and so utter falsehood in his presence without 
detection". 

Seems to me that Snape is speaking from experience here! And while 
Legilimency and Occlumency are opposite sides of the same coin, as 
it were, Voldemort is better at the first and Snape is better at the 
second... and I suspect Dumbledore was adept at both. I think that 
part of Snape's technique in Occlumency is to project a prickly, 
angry, unpleasant exterior so that others do not want to even think 
about what's going on in his mind. While Dumbledore on the other 
hand, projects bland good will, cheerfulness, and sometimes a bit of 
dottiness... causing others to often underestimate him. I also think 
Snape is so adept that he can probably totally disassociate himself 
from any feeling or memory he does not want anyone else to know 
about... even more completely detach from them than leaving them 
behind in a Pensieve.     

Rachel:
> The other option might be that there is a vow just for the 
> particular event "Should the need ever arise, I will kill you in 
> order to keep the Death Eaters believing that I am one of them."
  
I suspect it's more like Dumbledore saying to Snape "When the time 
comes, I want you to perform the Avada Kadavra Curse on me so that 
no young person will have to split off a piece of their soul just to 
be rid of me". And my guess would be that Dumbledore and Snape have 
an Unbreakable Vow between them. The reason Snape's hand twitched 
when making the Vow with Narcissa is most likely, IMO, because he 
worried briefly that this 2nd vow would conflict with the first one. 
Although it is called the Unbreakable Vow, one can break it... if 
one is willing to die in order to do so.     

Rachel:
> Ok, before I get into my next point, did DD ever say he did not 
> create a Horcruxe? I mean seriously, he said it was serious and
> all that, but perhaps he created one? Could there be a piece of DD
> in Fawkes, or in the sword? We saw him say the one relic from
> Grifindore was safe... meybe he knew that becusae he himself had
> used it? Can one item be a horcue for more than one person?
 
I don't think Dumbledore said one way or the other that he had or 
had not created a horcrux for himself. But I seriously doubt he did. 
That magic is Black magic... evil. And Dumbledore is not afraid of 
death like Voldemort. To Dumbledore an intact loving soul is much 
more valuable and precious than even life itself.  To create a 
horcrux according to what Slughorn tells Riddle in the memory he 
finally gives Harry... one has to commit a deliberate and purposeful 
act of murder in order to create a horcrux... one has to already be 
a long way down the Dark path (IMO) before one could even begin to 
consider doing this. It is the act of murder that splits the soul.. 
and one must also be prepared to put that piece that is split off 
into a vessel in order to create a horcrux... so this probably could 
not be done accidentally... it has to be with malice  of 
forethought ... in the US that is the definition of Murder One.. 
premeditated, deliberate, and with no remorse. Can you honestly see 
Dumbledore doing something like that? I certainly can not!
   
Rachel:
> I was just flipping through, and I notice that in Hogsmead, wheere
> DD is near death, it is Snape that he wants. Perhaps he wants more
> than just a "potions/dada master", what if Snape is (or has) dd's 
> horcruxe? Maybe being reunited with it would have given dd extra 
> stregth or a piece of information he was missing. Or even, what if
> it was the opposite! What if DD has a piece of snapes soul?  We
> never did find out how a horcruxe is reunited with the rest of its
> soul or destroyed. Perhaps one needs to destroy the vessle in
> which it is contained. It might also be how DD knows he can trust
> Snape, but that area needs more thought.

I think Dumbledore wanted Snape for his skill in both Potions and 
Dark Arts... and because of what ever plan they have between them. 
Since he did not yet know that the DEs had invade Hogwarts, I think 
he wanted Snape's skill to get an antidote to what ever was in that 
basin. As he told Harry that was not a health drink. And the 
drinking of it had left him weak, ... may have drained or diluted 
his wizarding powers in some way. After all it was Harry who 
Apparated them both back from the cavern... quite a feat for an 
unlicensed teenager! Side-Along Apparation is apparently much harder 
to do that solo apparation.    

Rachel: 
> Also a question.  We know that a horcruxe can be an object or a 
> person right?  So why must a person kill to create one?  Is it 
> possible that DD knows that he has not used various objects (ie,
> GG sword, or the sorting hat [which for some reaon I believe
> belonged to one of the founders, but I can not lay my hands on a
> quote at this moment]) because he has already used it?  Do we
> think that Harry might be one of them?  We know he transfered his
> powers, why not his soul?

Again Dumbledore would not have used any relic to create a horcrux 
for himself! See my comments above... And I don't think he said that 
a horcrux could be a person... he said it might be possible for the 
snake to be one... Plus Dumbledore would know if V had used a 
frequently seen/used object at Hogwarts for doing such Dark magic.. 
he can sense the present of magic through his touch, sight, hearing 
and possibly smell for all we know. He could sense at the entrence 
of the cavern where the entrance was ... and what the "toll" was to 
get through it!  

Rachel:
> However, did it strike anyone else as odd that JKR took the time
> to point out to us that Poppy was wearing a knee length black veil
> (in my mind of the sort usually reserved for widdows)? it probably
> means nothing, but I thought I would see what other people think. 

It was not Poppy wearing the long veil it was Madame Pince the 
librarian... who it seems is close to Filch..

"... and when they reached the entrance hall, they found Madam 
Pince standing beside Filch, she in a thick black veil that fell to 
her knees, he in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs"

Deb