This is not the Snape we wanted. Can we still love him?

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 134453

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" <nrenka at y...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> 
> Then I have to say: why respond, for the whole point was to think 
> through the premise as given. :)  ["So, if you don't agree, fine, 
> but let's not argue that one just now."]  Consider it a hypothetic, 
> to work upon the task of seeing all sides, and all possibilities.
> 
> Is it really so utterly unthinkable, that Dumbledore might have 
> been mistaken--or at the least, fooled?  This possibility is 
> brought up repeatedly in the text; this might be only a reference 
> to young Tom Riddle, or it might be foreshadowing.  If one objects 
> to the foreshadowing on the grounds that it's entirely too obvious, 
> I'd like to point you to the romance of Ron and Hermione, also 
> rejected by many a poster on *exactly the same grounds*.

Excellent point.  The books are, it is true, full of references to 
how Dumbledore trusts Snape.  They are also, however, full of 
examples of how Dumbledore is often wrong about people -- sometimes 
in spectacular ways.  In PS/SS he was wrong about Quirrel.  In CoS he 
was wrong about Lockheart.  In PoA he was revealed to have been wrong 
about Sirius and Wormtail, and perhaps about Lupin as well.  In GoF 
he was fooled by someone impersonating one of his oldest friends.  In 
OOTP he was wrong about Harry, Sirius, AND Snape.  We also have the 
hint in HBP that he had been wrong about the Dursleys (although that 
does contradict - I suspect by conscious choice on JKR's part - some 
of what he said in OOTP).  Added to is JKR's statement in her 
interviews about how trusting too readily and wanting to believe the 
best of people really IS a weakness of Dumbledore's, that indeed his 
great intelligence sometimes made him liable to large-scale emotional 
misunderstandings and miscalculations.  The theme of Dumbledore's 
weakness in this area runs straight through all the books.  On the 
face of it, there seems little reason to believe he might not have 
been wrong about Snape -- particularly if Snape was playing his own 
selfish game and if Snape came under severe emotional stress that 
Dumbledore did not fully forsee or understand.


<SNIP>
> 
> Keep in mind that one traitor in the Order escaped Dumbledore's 
> notice, after all.  Unless there's something going on with Peter of 
> another sort--but that would also violate your conditions about 
> Dumbledore being good, so I don't think you want to go there. :)

Another good point.  See above.

> Now, if you can point me to something that absolutely positively 
> cannot possibly be read as Snape looking out for himself, I'd love 
> to see it.


Hmmm.  It's hard to answer that one.  Self-interest is really 
PERCIEVED self-interest, after all.  And at the moment, we don't 
really have enough evidence as to what Sevvie's perceptions are.  I 
will hazard a guess, however, and not be surprised if I'm wrong.  I'm 
going to hazard that Severus is much more moved by raw emotion than 
he likes anyone to believe.  I will further guess that Dumbledore's 
miscalculation with regard to occlumency is but the tip of a very 
large iceberg with regard to both Harry and Severus.  He did not 
understand how damaged either of them were by their experiences 
(damaged being JKR's word, not mine).  Therefore, both were capable 
of acting in ways he did not expect, and I mean that on a much larger 
scale than just OOTP.

 
> Theme has become a weak point to argue upon, because none of us 
know 
> what Rowling is really aiming for.  Is she trying to make a point 
> about looking beyond appearances, or is she making a demonstration 
of 
> what pent-up bitterness and resentment can do to a man?  Or is it 
> rather that one should not put absolute faith in a mentor, but 
rather 
> seek for one's own answers and be true to the heart as well as the 
> mind?

Theme is indeed a dangerous thing to argue from, and the best one can 
do is speculate.  It is perhaps best to remember that JKR has said 
that this is a "moral story" but NOT a "story about morals."  As 
such, it is perhaps too much to expect that themes will always be 
clear or even consistent.  And that is, after all, very true to 
life.  To take just one possible set of themes, the idea of trusting 
those wiser than you and viewing things logically is at times at odds 
with the idea of making your own decisions about moral issues and 
deciding your reactions based on the evidence that you have available 
(as opposed to the evidence someone ELSE says they have).  This is a 
messy, difficult, cross-cutting quandary that we run into in life all 
the time.  It shouldn't be surprising that it is a messy situation in 
the HP saga, and that sometimes Harry is better off to trust DD and 
sometimes he's better off to forget DD and go with his own beliefs 
and evaluations.  Such is, after all, in some ways the essence of 
growing up -- learning that sometimes your parental figures are 
right, and sometimes they are wrong, sometimes you should listen to 
them, and sometimes you should not, sometimes you should accept their 
judgment, and sometimes you should reject their judgment in favor of 
your own.  It is quite possible we will never get a clear statement 
of theme from JKR on these issues - perhaps for instance Harry will 
be proven right about Snape but wrong about Slytherin house in 
general.  Who knows?

Lupinlore