[HPforGrownups] What would convince Harry/canned memories

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 134471

Amanda Geist wrote:
> I had two questions. Why didn't Dumbledore just *tell* Harry why he could
> trust Snape? And how, now, can Harry possibly learn, and *believe in,* the
> reason Dumbledore trusted Snape? I think the only person who knew,
> Dumbledore, made it impossible for himself to tell anyone. I think it is
> only Dumbledore, still, who has a reasonable chance of making Harry
> understand. And I think it will still be Dumbledore who tells him.
> 
> I grant you, death is a bit of an obstacle to communication. But given all
> that we now know of Pensieves, I think I can see an explanation for why
> Dumbledore did not tell him (or anyone else, evidently) and the way for
> Dumbledore to give this last bit of information to Harry.
> 
> Here's my summation of Pensieve knowledge (forgive the caps, please--I
> cannot underline or otherwise set off for ease of reading):
> 
> (1) PUTTING A MEMORY IN THE PENSIEVE TAKES IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. Canon
> supports this:
> 
> Dumbledore says in GoF: (p. 597) [Dumbledore is speaking]:
> 
>    "'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply
> have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.' ...
>    "'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use
> the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours
> them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure.'"
> 
> To me, this sounds like it's *removal* of a memory or thought, rather than a
> *copy.*

Kathy writes:
       I think that this also supports my theory that the only way Snape 
has been able to convince Voldemort that he is loyal is with the removal 
of all memories that might indicate otherwise.  He did not fool 
Dumbledore and he did not fool Voldemort.  Dumbledore did.
KJ

Amanda
> The obvious corollary I draw is: if it's not in your head, *you don't know
> it anymore.*

Kathy writes:
      Which would also explain several things about Snape's inability to 
grow up and get on with things.  If anything good has been stored for 
safekeeping, what is left.
KJ

> JKR: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across, because
> Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want
> to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it
> together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.
> ...
> JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it?
> Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you,
> so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't
> notice the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all
> of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know
> you remember are all in there somewhere.
   Amanda

Kathy writes:
     Which means too that if Harry gets a chance to relive certain 
memories he will know that they are real from his own experience. Harry 
also has seen real and "cobbled up".
KJ
> 
> (3) MEMORIES CAN BE STORED. The memories that Dumbledore and Harry view are
> in bottles; Harry collects Slughorn's memory in a bottle. Dumbledore has
> evidently been collecting memories for years, keeping them, bringing them
> out when needed, and examining them for clues.
   Amanda

Kathy writes:
     Perhaps even in his own head for safe-keeping.
KJ
snip
> ONE--I think the reason Dumbledore never told Harry why he trusts Snape is
> that he *can't,* meaning he honestly is not able to. I believe he *doesn't
> know,* because he has taken that memory out of his head, as insurance,
> because he knew it was quite likely he'd be facing Voldemort. I think, to be
> safe, Dumbledore would allow himself to remember that he trusts Snape, and
> that he has a good reason--but not the reason itself.  Because if Voldemort
> managed to "see" the first two things, he would think only that Snape was
> damn good at fooling Dumbledore, which would *strengthen* Snape's position
> with Voldemort. But if Voldemort ever managed to see the "ironclad" reason
> *why* Dumbledore trusted Snape? That would doom Snape.
> 
> So that memory is not in Dumbledore's head. He does not know the actual
> reason at the moment--and won't, until he puts the memory back--and so
> cannot tell it to Harry. I think this explains the following scene (p. 549,
> HBP) [Harry is speaking]:
> 
>    "'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized
> how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be
> the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --' ...
>    "'...Professor...how can you be *sure* Snape's on our side?'
>    "Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he were
> trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am sure. I
> trust Severus Snape completely.'"
   Amanda

   Kathy writes:
     I think he does know, he just can not afford to jeopardize his 
plans as yet by telling Harry due to the possibility of Voldemort taking 
a peek.  Things are very close to the edge of completion at the moment. 
Dumbledore is taking an enormous risk even telling Harry about the 
Horcruxes. He has told Harry not one thing that could jeopardize Snape.
KJ
snip
> 
> TWO--All this, then, means to me that there's a memory in a bottle somewhere
> that shows that ironclad reason that so convinced Dumbledore. I predict the
> existence of this, and that Harry will see it in Book 7, and it will show
> him the truth; in a form he cannot argue with, from a source he cannot
> disbelieve.
> 
> When he sees it; what he has already done based on incomplete knowledge and
> belief of Snape's treachery; who may also see it--these are variables that
> have great plot and character potential.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ~Amandageist

Kathy writes:
     I agree completely. They will always hate each other, but I am sure 
they will have to work together.
KJ