Misunderstood Snape

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 135332

> <justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> > -[Cindy asked:] (faulty attribution; should be "Carol wrote:")
> > <snipped> As for the idea that Severus and Lily were Potions
partners, which I've been encountering in a lot of posts lately, the
only time we see students from other houses working with the
Gryffindors is in Herbology, which they have with the Hufflepuffs. We
never see Slytherins and Gryffindors working together except in
unusual circumstances (e.g., Draco's injured arm and Ron ordered to
cut up Draco's roots). We never see Slytherins and Gryffindors as
study partners, mostly because of the enmity between the houses but
partly because of logistics: they have different common rooms and the
only place they could study together would be the library. I can't see
Severus, the Half-Blood *Prince,* braving the contempt of his
Slytherin classmates by studying with a "Mudblood." <snipped>
> > 
> 
zgirnius responded:
<snip> 
> First, I agree with you entirely about Snape's abilities. I am 
> convinced he is a very powerful wizard, and especially gifted in the 
> academic areas of Dark Arts/DADA and Potions. I don't doubt he 
> developed the potions improvements and hexes in the book. But I am 
> not willing to trule out Snape and Lily having been potions partners. 
> 
> You base your argument on two premises, the first being that Sluggie 
> could be exaggerating Lily's abilities. Oh, he would, of course, to 
> get on Harry's good side. However, we have the fact that he invited 
> her into the Slug Club whan she was at Hogwarts. Since he's clearly 
> trying to hook up with the future up and comers of the magic world, 
> there had to be a reason for this decision on his part. <snip> This
does not give us any basis to compare the relative merits of Snape and
Lily as potions-makers, but it is a reasonable basis to suppose that
Lily was the other Potions star in that year.
> 
> Your second argument is that they would not hook up as study
partners because of the relative isolation of the two houses. However,
it *does* seem that Slytherins and Gryffindors take Potions together,
so that Snape and Lily would have seen each other in action on a
regular basis. <snip> 

> You could be right, of course! But for those of us who are thinking 
> the secret reason DD trusted Snape was that he knew Snape had loved 
> Lily-well, it is a bit of a stretch to think he could have fallen
for her so hard without some personal interaction. A schoolboy crush, 
> sure. But *Love*?


Carol responds:
As I indicated in a message that I meant to send to you offlist but
which accidentally showed up here (and is now deleted), the paragraph
you're quoting is actually mine, not Cathy's. (You snipped Cathy's
comments, which I was responding to, but kept the attribution, giving
Cathy credit for my remarks, which she may not even agree with.)

That aside, I don't see enough evidence to support the Severus/Lily
SHIP, but I don't have any irrefutable evidence against it, either. My
instinct, though, is that James would not have liked "Evans" if he
thoutht she liked Snape. And note that the Pensieve incident (in which
he called her a mudblood and she retaliated with "Snivellus," occurred
at the end of fifth year. The NEWT Potions text that Snape annotated
so interestingly is from his sixth year, as we know because it's the
same text Harry is using in *his* sixth-year NEWT Potions class.) It
seems to me most unlikely that Lily would have chosen Severus as a
Potions partner after the Pensieve incident. Most likely she didn't
choose James or Sirius, either. Most likely, IMO, worked with one of
her Gryffindor girlfriends.

It's quite possible that Lily was skilled at Potions (after all, she
became Head Girl), but most unlikely that she was a genius like Snape.
Maybe we'll see more along these lines, something relating to a potion
she used to protect Harry and activate the ancient magic. (I
previously speculated that she placed a protective Charm on him
(activated by her self-sacrifice), given Ollivander's "nice wand for
Charm work" remark in SS/PS and my unwillingness to believe that she
was the only mother in the WW ever to die protecting her child from an
AK. But given Dumbledore's death, I don't see how we could find this out.

In any case, regardless of Lily's skill level, which must have been at
least E-level for her to be in NEWT Potions (which she certainly would
have had with Severus because the students from all houses who reach
NEWT level have it together), I think it's unlikely that this
particular Slytherin would be the partner of any Gryffindor. He may
even have worked alone, given the failure of any members of his
Slytherin gang to come to his defense in the Pensieve scene. (On a
side note, we know that Bellatrix is about three years older than
Severus and probably most the members of the "Slytherin gang" were
also older. Lucius Malfoy, who was probably the original leader, is
six years older. So Severus, whom we see becoming increasingly bitter
and angry in his potions textbook, reaching the point of creating a
Dark spell "for enemies" near the end of the year, seems to be
developing into a loner rather than the petted prodigy he must have
been when he was part of a gang of older Slytherins.

I could cite canon from OoP for most of these speculations, not to
prove them but to show that they are at least not baseless, but I've
already done so in old posts and don't have time to repeat the effort
right now.

If Snape indeed loved Lily, which I think is more wishful thinking
than canon-based theory, I'm pretty sure that his love was unrequited,
and he had already spoiled whatever tiny chance he may have had with
her by calling her a "mudblood." (He may well have regretted the
outburst, but the damage was done.)

I certainly agree that the explanation Dumbledore gave for his trust
of Snape is anything but ironclad. It strikes me as valied only if he
had some much stronger, much more substantial evidence, if not proof,
of Snape's loyalty. Rather than looking to Lily for the answer, I
think we need to look at Snape himself.

Like Snape, who gives Bellatrix and Voldemort the undeniable fact that
you can't apparate out of Hogwarts as his chief reason for not
appearing in the graveyard when he was summoned, Dumbledore appears to
give perfectly true explanations which are nevertheless not the real
reason for someone's actions (usually Snape's). Examples include DD's
using Snape's life debt (or whatever it was) as his reason for saving
Harry in SS/PS (yes, Steve, I know what you think about this!) and
Snape's hatred of James as the reason for abandoning the Occlumency
lessons. (I think Snape saved Harry because it was his duty as a
teacher and as an enemy of Quirrel!mort and that he stopped the
Occlumency lessons because he saw that they were doing more harm than
good. These were reasons which he chose, no doubt wisely, not to
reveal to Harry. And now the same thing has happened again. The
question is how, with Dumbledore dead and Snape vilified by the entire
WW (except the DES and LV) as his murderer, we will ever find out that
real reason.

Snape's unrequited love for Lily is a possible reason for Dumbledore's
trust (and Snape's remorse). I find it an unlikely one. And I see no
canon evidence for it that can be drawn from Slughorn's sentimental
statements about Lily's skill in Potions. The handwriting in Harry's
book was Severus's, the spells are Severus's, the annotations on
stirring the potions and "stuffing a bezoar down their throat" are
Severus's. He's a genius at both Potions (as we should already have
known) and at DADA (which many of us never guessed). Lily, in
contrast, was a gifted student whom Slughorn remembers with affection
and whose death he deeply regrets, for very personal reasons. The fact
that these two students had NEWT Potions at the same time is no more
evidence for a relationship between them than the fact (I think it's a
fact) that Harry has NEWT Potions with Pansy Parkinson.

I'm not saying that you're wrong because you may well be right. I'm
only saying that I see no convincing evidence and a lot of wishful
thinking.

Carol