Paradox of Time Travel in PoA - Before & After

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 135824

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smilingator4915"
<smilingator81 at a...> wrote:
> smilingator:
> 
> I was so excited to see a post that wasn't about HBP... turned out
> to be in reference to a post I made about 3 weeks ago on time 
> travelingin POA (see post #132073)

> >davenclaw: 
> > If time can't be changed, then why would Dumbledore need to send
> > the kids back in time at all?  Everything had already worked
> > itself out, right? 

> smilingator:  
> 
> Ahhh, the beauty of DD's statement and Hermione's understanding of
> "more time". Harry and Hermione did have a choice as to whether or
> not they should go back in time. Since H/Hr did go back in time, 
> Buckbeak and Sirius were saved. The reason that everything worked 
> itself out was BECAUSE the two went back in time, not IN SPITE of 
> the fact that they went back in time. Had H/Hr not gone back, 
> Buckbeak would be dead and probably more people than Sirius would 
> have been *kissed* by the dementors.
> 
> ...edited... The important thing: NOTHING CHANGED during the dual 
> telling of the events but our perspective of them. I'm not sure 
> what canon evidence you have for believing that there was some 
> other sequence of events that was altered, but I'd love to hear 
> about it  :)
> 
> Just my thoughts...
> 
> smilingator 

bboyminn:

Oh sweet mother of Merlin, do I want to open this can of worms again?

First, all time travel will create a paradox, even the best thought
out methods; there is simply no escape from that. However, let's not
lose perspective regarding the nature and degree of paradox in PoA; it
can be small or it can be large depending on nothing more than a
person's perspective. Personally, I choose the small pain free
perspective.

First, let's look as what Dumbledore knows. He know that Buckbeak
escaped, but he doesn't know how or why. He knows that someone who
looked like Harry's father saved Harry from the Dementors, and that's
about it.

Remember, that at the time that Dumbledore makes his point about
needing 'more time' /Sirius has NOT been saved yet/; that occurs in
the future. There is nothing Dumbledore can do about saving Harry;
somehow that worked itself out. There is nothing Dumbledore can do
about saving Buckbeak because that also seems to have worked itself
out, but there is something he thinks he might be able to do about
using Buckbeak to save Sirius, which, again, has not happened yet.

Dumbledore knows Buckbeak escaped, but he doesn't know how, he does
however know that there is a window of opportunity to catch Buckbeak
as he escapes, and use him to save Sirius. So, that is the task that
he sets Harry and Hermione to do. A task that fixes something in the
future.

Again, I insist that Dumbledore must maintain a degree of 'plausable
deniability'; he must protect himself, so he indirectly tells Hermione
and Harry that they may be able to save more than one life that night.
It's a hint; 'plausable deniability' all around.

So, Harry and Hermione go back in time, and yes indeed they fulfill
the events of that night. But, they do it by making free choices. They
choose the method by which Buckbeak's services are obtained. Harry
does not leave Hagrid's cabin to go to the lake to save himself; he
goes to see if it is his father who saves him. So, no willfull plan or
intent; just free choices. It is only at the last minute that he
realizes that he saved himself, and does so.

There is no way that Dumbledore could have foreseen that Harry would
remove Buckbeak from where he was tied. In Dumbledore's estimation,
Harry could have waited for Buckbeak to escape, and then captured him
as he ran away. Of course, from our perspective as the reader, we see
exactly how Harry managed Buckbeak's escape, but Dumbledore doesn't
know the method, only the outcome.

There is only a slight chance that Dumbledore could have foreseen that
Harry would save himself, and it is only after the full events have
played out that Harry explains it to him. 

So, the goal of Harry, Hermione, and Dumbledore at that point in time,
was to simply enlist the help of the escaped Buckbeak in saving
Sirius; not specifically to untie Buckbeak and lead him away, not
specifically for Harry to save himself from the Dementors. 

Yes, Dumbledore sent Harry and Hermione back in time, but at that
specific time, none of them knew the details of the events that
unfolded. They went back with the specific purpose of saving Sirius
which HAD NOT yet occurred in time. The other incidences merely
documented how things managed to work out, and that allows them to
return from time travel with full knowledge of those events.

So, do you see my point? Harry and Hermione didn't go back in time to
do the things they did. They worked out those details and took actions
spontaneously as they went. True their after-knowledge does confirm
their foreknowledge, but it doesn't dictate it. 

This should help answer the question of why they went back in time
when apparently everything had already worked itself out. Of course,
the answer is that one crucial event had not worked itself out,
Sirius's escape, and it is this one unresolved event that they go back
in time to fix. It is only by chance that there presences in the past
also worked out several known events.

Just a comment to the subject in general.

Steve/bboymin - who both loves and hates time travel discussions.